China-Vatican relations
Each commands the loyalty of more than a billion people. Each is governed by a leader chosen in secret by a small group of its senior members. Each lays out a set of moral guidelines that its followers should live by. The Vatican and the Chinese Communist Party have quite a few things in common (apart, of course, from a belief in God...)
But the two sides have been in conflict for decades. Diplomatic relations were broken off after the Communist Party came to power in 1949 (instead of recognising Beijing, the Vatican is currently one of 23 states that has diplomatic ties with the government in Taiwan - the island that China considers a breakaway province.)
Right now, the China-Vatican argument comes down to this: who gets to pick the church's bishops in China. The Communist Party says it should be China. The Vatican says it should be the Pope. It's an important fight - because there are around 12 million Catholics in China. The argument over control has split the Catholic Church in China into two - there's the official state-run church (bishops picked by Beijing) and the unofficial - or underground - or church whose parishioners are loyal to the Pope.
But things may be changing. Some ultra Sino-Vaticanology for you...
1) In June 2007 the Pope sent a 55-page open letter to Catholics in China - a kind of (lengthy) goodwill greetings card. Benedict XVI stuck to his bottom line - the Church in Rome gets to pick all bishops anywhere in the world. But he reached out to all Catholics in China and suggested that the Vatican was open to negotiations with the Chinese government.
2) In September 2007, a new Bishop of Beijing, Joseph Li Shan, was consecrated. The bishop was chosen by the Chinese government - but Vatican watchers say that the Church in Rome quietly approved of his appointment.
3) And just a few days ago (8 May) the China Philharmonic Orchestra played a concert for Pope Benedict XVI in the Vatican (it performed Mozart's "Requiem" and a selection of Chinese folk tunes.) China says the visit was just about music. But you clearly don't allow your national orchestra to play for a leader whose state you don't have ties with unless you've thought it all through beforehand.
At the moment, the Chinese media in Hong Kong (which has more freedom to report, rumour, and guess than the media in mainland China) speculates that all of the above means that the Vatican and Beijing may be about to re-establish diplomatic ties.
But one veteran Rome-watcher has just reminded me that the wheels inside the Vatican move incredibly slowly.
As they do in China as well.
I’m 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~07~RS~)
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Good news. China has a vast population, with diverse beliefs. A healthy relationship between the Vatican and China will bring stability and inter-faith understanding to the whole world.
China is doing well. And China is changing.
Although the wheel in Vatican is moving slowly, the wheel in China shows no sign of slowing down. With the talk to Dalai Lama and now this, I see all positives of this great ancient nation.
Kudos China!
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"Each commands the loyalty of more than a billion people... Each lays out a set of moral guidelines that its followers should live by. "
How many people in China do you think are followers of the CCP ideals? Let me tell you, close to zero. It was your imagination, not your research, at work again.
"Right now, the China-Vatican argument comes down to this: who gets to pick the church's bishops in China."
This is not news. Learn the history. This problem has always been the focus from day one. Personally, I don't think China should ever accept a church inside its domain controlled by Vatican. It is good that Vatican is starting to accept this.
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Lots of Chinese denouncements and shouts that you're spouting lies will follow I assume. Oh well.
The Vatican is an independent country and one could technically assume the catholic bisshops/cardinals/etc are its ambassadors and consuls to all the countries of the world. Then, using the Chinese doctrine of "no meddling" one could say that China shouldn't meddle in the appointment of these officials.
but since china does once could reciprocate and say that the Vatican has the right to appoint the officials of the CCP.
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Except for the rights of naming bishops, China do recognize the spiritual authority of the Pope. In fact, Pope's name is mentioned in the mass, and the rites are in accordance with Vatican II. The relationship between the official church and the underground church very much varies in different localities. Catholic church in China has been quietly sending priests and nuns to foreign countries for further studies for quite a long time already. I hope Vatican and China could arrive at an agreement acceptable to both parties.
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"The Vatican is an independent country and one could technically assume the catholic bisshops/cardinals/etc are its ambassadors and consuls to all the countries of the world. Then, using the Chinese doctrine of "no meddling" one could say that China shouldn't meddle in the appointment of these officials."
How many people would agree on this? Which country allows its own citizens to work as ambassadors and consuls for a foreign country. On top of that, a country has the right to stop diplomatic relationship with another country, which is exactly what happens between China and Vatican now. Even if the diplomatic relationship is recovered, China still has the right to determine how many ambassadors and consuls Vatican could send to China and where the consulates and embassy should be built.
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Smart move. Hu is a smart fellow over all, I think he is gaining the power to oppress left wing opinion inside CCP.
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In my opinion this doesn't boil down to religion but to sovereignty. PRC refuses to have officical contacts with any country that recognises ROC. Since the vatican recognises the ROC, PRC refuses to have diplomatic relations.
Using the lack of interaction between PRC and vatican as evidence that PRC has a poor religious freedom policy is weak.
I am not saying that PRC can't improve the religious freedom within mailand china but you have to understand that the vatican's absence in PRC is purely an issue of international politics.
I am glad that PRC is willing to talk to religious leaders eventhough they have a political stance. But i think what the PRC government wants is to keep religion out of politics(which i support). Although certain religious leaders have political opinions the PRC will still recognise them as RELIGIOUS leader(eg. HH, although no matter what he does, he will always be connected with politics).
To sum up.
PRC has made great advances into religious freedom, although more development is needed.
Religion should be kept out of politics at all costs.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A healthy relationship between the Vatican and the government is good for both parties.....
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I'm happy to see that China and the Vatican are forging a friendship. This is just one more step that China has to take on its way to the top. I'll be in Qingdao for the first two days of Olympic sailing events, and I'm excited to see the progress that China is making firsthand.
To toughwu: Whether you support the CCP's ideals is irrelevant to this discussion. However, you have let your own uninformed opinions seep into your comment, leading not only to unnecessary ad hominem attacks, but a sad glimpse into your own character. Perhaps you're from a place in China where CCP support is lackluster at best. Or perhaps you do not live in China at all, which would force me to assume you simply enjoy assaulting Mr Reynolds from the comfort and safety of your keyboard. You should learn to present your arguments more lightly.
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Hello James,
Thank you, as always, for your simplicity and insight into what is making news in China today. Had it not be your initiative to start this China-blog, you would not be our target for criticism, condemnation, appreciation, and even racist personal attack. Had it not be your initiative, we would have been missing a bit of China at least go unreflected. It is a job well done and so far so good. I follow your brain-storming ideas and perspectives as you begin to explore China. Keep it up!!!!
However, as a Tibetan, I would like to see more of your coverage on Tibet even in Beijing where important decisions about Tibet are made.
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Hi James, you must know why your queen is the head of your church of England. For the same reason, you do not want your bishop appointed by somebody living in another country. The same reason to China, the bishop in China should be appointed by Chinese leader, not by somebody living in another world, another country...
"Each is governed by a leader chosen in secret by a small group of its senior members." You are losing your common sense here. Pope is normally an old man, not need to care too much his 1 billion people's living standard. As Chinese leader, he must be energetic, active, coorporative, hard working, and try his best to improve the 1.3 people's living standard. Can you suggest me a better system than the current one to China? Please do not tell me your "democracy". It is a dose of posion! It may work to China after 50 or 100 years, but not now.
Tell you what! the system in Vitacan will never change, even after 100 years, but Chinese system is evolving to a better one. The one which is more suitable to China. This is the reason most people support the government to the right direction. Not too quick, not too slow, using our proper rhythm...
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To say that China and the Vatican do not recognise each other does not tally with facts. Many years ago when working in Singapore, I attended a house party of a Catholic friend. I was introduced to one of the guests who was the new parish priest. a La Salle brother from China. I was surprised that a priest from China is allowed to work outside China and asked my friend about it. My friend told me that without the help of missionaries from the Chinese church, the Singapore church would have collapsed long ago because there is a shortage of local men willing to train for priesthood. Without the sanction of the Vatican, how could priests trained in the Chinese church which does not recognise the authority of the Pope be allowed to administer to Catholics who recognise the Pope as the supreme authority? There are some agreement as well as difference between the two sides. They prefer to keep the status quo for appearance, until they have found a solution. It is the 'three wise monkeys' game China and Vatican been playing for years.
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The opening comparisons are very neat, but far far away from truth. nothing in the world would be so simple, but, hey, this is media. people want simple fastfood like this, you cant blame on Jimmy.
Mr. Toughwu, can tell you have been following this somewhat cloesly, but it is obvious u r not a catholic. At least not a catholic from the Mainland. For if u were, u would have known the truth: It is not so much about the pope that want to control the candidate of bishops in China. The root problem is the CCP want to impose their candiate over the will of the Chinese catholics, who certainly do not like it at all.
In fact, the ordinary church rule is that each diocese submits 3 candidates to the pope, who will pick one among the 3. normally, except in very rare extrordinary cases, the 1st is picked. Thus it is somewhat a mere final approval, with great respect for the local church's decision. But the method the CCP uses for choosing a candidate is a totally different story.
Another fact: today in China, AT LEAST 90% of the bishops are approved by the Pope already, either the 'open' church or the 'underground' church. Thus, beware of the stereotype that "only the underground church' is loyal to the Pope. Moreover, not every 'underground' bishop is approved by the Pope. Some worst cases of disobedience and bitter struggle for power within the churches, sad to say, exactly come from the so-called 'underground' part.
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China should not allow organized religions in the country. Folk religions are OK.
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Yes, it is good to see the relationship is improving.
But the progress must be based on respect, Pope must respect China and treat it equally. Most of chinese are not Christian, Pope is no difference to them more than a normal western person.
I found it's funny Sebastian Coe called Olympic officials 'thugs', he is a celebrity in the UK, but in China, he is no difference to a pro-Tibet-seperatist trying to hijack the Beijing Olympics - he wanted to approach the torch, of course those people will push him away, I can understand Sebastian Coe thought he was humiliated as he thought he's somebody and should not be treated in this way, but think it in the another way around, this is the right thing to do for the officials.
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It's an astonishing good sign. Even at this kind of situation, Chinese government still shows its will to cooperate with Vatican and the west. The truth is that Vatican needs China more than Chinese government needs them. However, Chinese government gave them a good gesture.
To be honest, since the Tibetan riots broke out, the most western media showed a crazy-biased attitude and made the most Chinese and some western people think those media were actually trying to spark a Third World War (Even Dalai Lama himself said the western media was biased and overdone).
As a Chinese in UK, I definitely like UK very much, but I do know China is changing rapidly, things are getting better and better. However, when I watched and read all the overages about the Tibetan Riots in UK, I, like other Chinese began to believe that the western media were demonizing China and tried to refuse China's good will to cooperate with the western countries.
Most Chinese were angry and also lost their faith that western media can be balanced and neutral. Some Chinese began to believe there will be no win-win situation for the East and West, as western countries prefer a war rather than a peaceful world.
It's a sad news. When Chinese showed their good will and felt rejected, there wouldn't be any good future for the west. The damage has done, however, there are still some hopes. I hope the Chinese government and other rising powers don't lose their faith of cooperation, and choose a anti-western approach instead.
Cooperations are always the best way to solve problems.
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Mr. BBC moderator, you also take the weekend off? Where did you learn your English that it has to take you more than two days to 'moderate' through 10 messages? I doubt that I will ever again post any comment.
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funny, I can't remember of Catholic having one billion followers, well unless you want to combine all Christians. I think Catholicism is overrated. Even in Europe, most people don't go to church anymore.
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Religion should not interfere with politics. History tells us whenever religion is involved war and human lives are lost. France introduced laws banning religion from politics and people from wearing religious symbols but willing to show its hypocrisy when it supported Dalai Lama as political leader and backed religious authority in Tibet. There is no point for Paris to campaign for something in another country when they dont wish to have it inside their own border.
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To hizento,
You state 'religion should not interfere with politics', but why don't you also say 'politics should not interfere religion'? It is too 'simplisitic' to state that past history of war and death have been caused by religion. It is in anyway futile to draw a line of whether politics is involved in religion or the vice versa. It would rather be appropriate to state that human weakness i.e. selfishness and insanity is both in the practice of politics as well as religion. For your information, World Wars were fought not due to religon, Hitler, Stalin and Mao who were responsible for killing millions of people, were not religious extremists but were 'non-religious' fanatics.
In the case of China, it is a one-party state. The communist party of China, which 'believes' in the religion of power, nothing can obstruct its absolute control over the country and its social organizations, including religious institutions. It has banned Falun Gong not so much of a communist ideaology against religion, but rather due to its fear of losing control and power. Same rule can be applied to its problem with Vatican and its appointment its own bishops in China. Since 1995, the Chinese government started to interfere into Tibetan Buddhism by appointing its own Pachen Lama, known for Tibetans as 'Pachen Zuema' (fake Pachen). In September 2007, the government again passed a new legislative that gave the government direct control over the selection process of reincarnate lamas, the leaders of Tibetan buddhism. Whether Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, rights activists, Falun Gong, all can be pontential threats in the eyes of the party.
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Newborn_Khampa the time you include Falun Gong you become no different with other barkers who want to demonize China to me.
Go read more materials about Falun Gong and thing related with China and of course not just from biased source you used to use.
shame on you.
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