Libya and Sarkozy's moment
If sometime in the future the Libyan opposition win and come to power in Tripoli, they might consider a statue to the French president. There could be a Sarkozy Square or even a boulevard named after him.
There is no doubt that the French leader, with his renowned energy, was the key player in driving through a UN resolution that now allows "all necessary measures" to be used to protect civilians in Libya. He was undeterred by a divided EU and a G8 palpably unenthusiastic about any military action.
It's not that he acted alone. David Cameron was an ally, working the phones to get the votes in New York. But as Francois Baroin, Sarkozy's spokesman said, it was "the French who led the calls for action". The French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe travelled to New York to lobby the UN ambassadors.
Go back a week ago. The EU was hopelessly split. The Germans were implacably opposed to intervening. To the obvious irritation of the French president, EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton and her team were seen to be briefing against a no-fly zone which they said could not be implemented for weeks. The European heads of government could not even stomach using the words "no fly zone" in a final communique. Likewise a meeting of the G8 in Paris firmly rejected using force.
So what happened? Firstly, the decision by the Arab League to back a no-fly zone was a game changer. It gave the West crucial political cover.
Secondly, it was the rapid counter-offensive by Gaddafi's forces that focused minds, particularly in Washington. The Obama administration had hesitated, reluctant to use its power in another Arab nation. But if Gaddafi won it would have been asked in Washington: "Who lost Libya?" And around the world, Obama would have been seen to have failed the Arab spring.
The French and the British worked on getting key countries like China to abstain, while ensuring other Arab nations like Qatar and the UAE would join any action.
There are some observations that can be made. Without US leadership there is drift. The EU is ill-suited for taking decisive action. To some people it has failed to learn the lessons of the Balkans. It seeks a stronger voice on the world stage but fails to understand the importance of hard power.
We had a situation where some Europeans were frustrated with Washington. Some in the American capital were bemoaning the fact that all this was happening in Europe's back yard - and where was Europe? "It's high time that Europeans stopped exporting their own responsibilities to Washington," said Nick Witney from the European Council on Foreign Relations. "If the West fails on Libya, it will be primarily a European failure."
In the end it was the French and British who filled the vacuum and with the wind of the Arab League behind them secured a UN resolution.
That was hard. What lies ahead may be harder. As of writing we don't know whether this will principally be a French/British operation. The Americans are briefing that no immediate US action is expected.
It should be possible to stop Gaddafi's planes from flying. But that may not in itself change the reality on the ground. Combat air patrols might be able to target his forces heading, say, for Benghazi. But very quickly Libyan forces will operate from within city perimeters and they will be difficult to dislodge without risking wider civilian casualties.
And say Benghazi is spared, Gaddafi won't relinquish his grip on other places. You might have a ceasefire of sorts but the world could be left with a divided Libya with Gaddafi still in power. After pushing for action, would Paris and London be prepared to see the Gaddafi family in control of much of Western Libya, albeit unable to use aggression against his own people?
The logic will be to arm and train the opposition. Does that fall under "all necessary measures"? And so the risk of mission creep...
We know with any military action that plans are quickly torn up. The unpredictable occurs. Although there will be no boots on the ground, getting into a country is always easier than getting out.
What is the exit strategy? When is it "job done"? When is it "mission accomplished"? Is this an operation to end the fighting or to finish off the Gaddafi regime? All difficult questions that lie ahead.
But today the French will say they have won a battle for intervention. As Alain Juppe, the French foreign minister said: "We cannot allow these warmongers to go on. We cannot let international law be flouted."
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~11~RS~)
I'm 
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No fly will logically lead to ground intervention. Having committed military resources in support of the rebels, it would be impossible not to make this transition in the interests of saving lives. The key then depends on an orderly exit for Gadaffi and family.When this is achieved why not an invitation by referendum to the population of Libya to vote on joining the EU as an associate member. After all is this not all about nurturing democratic and forward thinking forces and how better to do this than through the EU, which has been successful in what was eastern Europe. Its the turn of the southern fringes of Europe, who already have many European links and shared traditions.
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The west is divided as a direct legacy of the war in Iraq. it is such a shame that the dodgy dossier and the patently obsessive focus on using 9/11 as a pretext for the invasion of the Iraq, despite a direct lack of evidence, has repercussions when force is required for a just cause.
I hope future politicians will consider the implications when they use global problems to energize a narrow domestic political base.
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Gaddafi's sone said that Sarkoky got money from them. What happened to this?
Why did France support for similar action in Saudiarabia and Bahrain?
Why no action taken in Sri Lanka although hondreds of thousands innocent Tamils were butchered and murdered by the state forces?
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"If sometime in the future the Libyan opposition win and come to power in Tripoli, they might consider a statue to the French president. There could be a Sarkozy Square or even a boulevard named after him."
Ha, ha, good one! Do you really see an Arab people building a monument to honour Sarkozy?! They're not that gullible to erect a statue to a man who has been actively supporting dicatatorships in the Arab world.
Sarkozy couldn't care less about the Libyan people, his government has been one of the main suppliers of arms to the Gaddafi regime since sanctions were lifted in 2004. Sarkozy is only trying to win votes for the upcoming presidential elections in 2012.
I can't believe a BBC journalist would write such a biased article!
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Bravo Sarkozy ! What a refreshing and decisive contrast to the cynicism and posturing of previous French presidents. This was beginning to feel like Bosnia - much wringing of hands in the West, and impotent inaction from Clinton, and this time Obama. This is not Iraq. This time there is a UN mandate and support from the Arab League. Gaddafi must be told immediately to stop any further advances by his troops, and that not to do so would incur air-to-ground attacks immediately. Remember when Reagan put missiles through his front door ? That took the wind out of his sails. The only way to deal with bullies is to hit them hard, immediately. To those who say this has nothing to do with us I say remember the spineless inaction that enabled Hitler to annexe the Sudetenland and invade Poland, and remember how knowledge that the West would not intervene allowed the USSR to mount hostile invasions and brutal suppression of human rights in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Do not forget as well that Idi Amin was only ousted as the result of action by the Tanzanian army. There comes a time when the lesser of two evils is appropriate. The world will be a better place without Gaddafi.
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Politically, Sarkozy is currently a bit of a desperado. His ratings are already through the floor and having been the first to recognise the rebels as legitimate, he certainly had a lot to lose by seeing the movement crushed, following their poor fortunes of the last week or so. And he's had to dump a minister over complicity with Tunisia's Ben Ali. Such is politics. As others have already commented, the welfare of some poor Libyan rebels, or his concerns for democratic change in that state, would not have been his foremost concerns, regardless of what he might appear to have accomplished.
The interesting thing we are seeing is more to do with UN. However slow it was to come, we have just seen nations sit on their hands until the UN gave the green light for military intervention. So Russia and China feel that this is a dangerous precedent? Frankly, I don't see it. After centuries of nations waging endless unregulated wars upon one another, the threat that the UN might at last get some teeth and put an end to nutcase dictators and tyrants, without creating the opportunity for national leaders to plead an underlying unfair and partisan agenda, all sounds relatively democratic to me.
Is the human race eventually crawling out of its dog-eat-dog mentality and moving towards pack-eat-mad-dog?
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From an EU perspective, this really is extraordinary stuff. First we have the new defense cooperation arrangements with France and now we have the Franco English alliance in securing the no-fly zone despite German objections. One is tempted to wonder whether this is simply another populist gesture from a President in serious domestic trouble or perhaps that Cameron is trying (and succeeding?) in breaking the Berlin Paris axis.
There does not seem to be a lot of doubt that Merkel and Westerwelle have lost round one on points. It will be interesting to see whether the new entente cordiale gets roundly thrash when it comes to actually doing anything.
In the meantime, the Chancellor can always try looking statesman like by turning the nuclear argument on it's head because of a catastrophe half a world away. As a diversionary tactic seems a little pathetic and desperate.
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GH: " The European heads of government could not even stomach using the words "no fly zone" in a final communique. Likewise a meeting of the G8 in Paris firmly rejected using force.
So what happened? Firstly, the decision by the Arab League to back a no-fly zone was a game changer."
It's nice to know that mighty EU has somebody to look up to and take a cue from: Arab League.
Btw. in his N. America blog, Mark Mardell has suggested that the first planes enforcing a no-fly zone would take off in a matter of hours after the pertinent resolution was adopted by UNSC.
It's an afternoon on the next day, and I still can't see any jets approaching Tripoli from the north.
Could it be they were scrambled from Gabon?
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GH: As Alain Juppe, the French foreign minister said: "We cannot allow these warmongers to go on. We cannot let international law be flouted."
Is that what Alain said, and, more importantly, did during the veritable genocide in Rwanda?
Or have we already forgotten about the "French Connection"? :-(((
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It's back to the 1950s with this resolution. Germany is afraid of any kind of war and sits on the fence. Europe is as disunited as ever it was, and the British and French scent old glory, backed by the old Arab Kingdoms, they helped establish. The Obama administration is sensibly more interested in being hired muscle for the Franco-British-Arab initiative then the vocally leading force in an 'army of crusaders and zionists'. Well politically played by all parties. You can't fault the self interest and avoidance of hippocracy by the Russians and the Chinese nor that of the beleaguered Arab autocrats desperate to please everyone. Be nice if it was Egypt rather than the UAE and Qatar but you can't have everything. @irisheuropean. Snore, the everlasting surprise of moral indignance. In your perfect black and white world is it 'invade every dictatorship' or 'abolish global trade until every country has had a democratic revolution'? Better yet maybe we should do away with democracy so we could have honest politicians like Gaddafi who selflessly only care about government rather than plithy things like elections or public opinion.
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THE UN VOTE SENDS STRONG MESSAGE
All the dictators,one by one,will take the garbage's path of the history.People have to wait a bit,to have patience.There are countries where the democracy makes little steps.People see and wait.There are countries where such a one way path is completely forbidden by dictators(presidents or kings) and people in large number on the streets know better than us.And it is the moment when UN has to take strong measures.I am a little bit afraid with France leadership because I believe that only US is cautious at "collateral damage" with their experience in Iraq and Afganistan . Let's see Sarkozy moving,let's hope that Gaddafi's men will understand that IT'S TIME TO GO.
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I was very pleasantly surprised to read this, both from a Libyan perspective and from a European one too. Not only does the Arab League support the move which gives those who would twist this into some great Western plot very little material to work with but its Europe who will be putting it into practice for a change. France no less, the country so vehemently against Iraq (and rightly so)!
It has the support of the Arab world, it is primarily led by Europe not America, it has a clear moral basis rather then dodgy 'weapons-of-mass-destruction-esque' reasoning, and for those who scream oil whenever any action is taken in the middle east this will clearly only disrupt the supply of oil and make prices more eratic lending very little weight to this argument either.
People will complain but this is one of the most positive actions i've seen the UN and international community take in quite a while.
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The West is simply showing that they are for OIL and nothing else.
This is another Western Leaders' policy of double standards.
Dictators and puppet leaders are branded as democratic and great leaders by the West and if a leader fail to listen they freeze the countries assets and brand the leaders as criminals. Until recently Hosni Mubarek was a democratic and a great leader!
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threnodioII wrote: There does not seem to be a lot of doubt that Merkel and Westerwelle have lost round one on points.
Perhaps they'were too busy reconsidering future of nuclear power in Germany; a country, as you know, prone to major earthquakes and tsunamis.
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"and remember how knowledge that the West would not intervene allowed the USSR to mount hostile invasions and brutal suppression of human rights in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Do not forget as well that Idi Amin was only ousted as the result of action by the Tanzanian army."
Forget Kadar and Ceausescu (and even Andropov, Honecker and Jaruzelski.
Who ousted Pol Pot? Mengistu Haile Mariam? Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il?
P.S. Have I mentioned Fidel Castro, Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and his factotum - Ahmadinnerjacket?
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A really excellent analysis here by Gavin Hewitt, which touched on every significant political point to date with respect to Europe and this crisis in Libya.
It was completely wrong of Ashton to brief against a NFZ.
It is crystal clear that she and POTEU Rompey are completely ill-suited and totally out of their depth in being the nexus of the EU and that must change.
Sarkozy has stepped up to the plate politically and now looks set the follow through with military action, along with EU assistance from Italy and Spain, along with whatever the UK's denuded forces can contribute.
It is a significant moment to witness European partners working in concerted political, economic and military action.
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I am an African not far from francophone Africa, and I most tell you there is little to admire in french policy. But, this time I admire French action. I admired Ghadafy in the days of apatheid South Africa, but now he is clearly insane. Forty two years in power is enough to make a man like that insane.
I admire what Sarkozy did, and I understand the initial US reluctance or caution. Whatever the case, the western powers are all on board, and should do all they can to free the Libyans, and then pay attention to Cameroon.
fetfombo
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I would definitely be unhappy to see Libya invited to join the EU, we already have problems with illegal immigrants, Italy in particular is being constantly "invaded" from Libya. If Libya joined the EU its citizens would have the legal right of entry. Islamic Turkey is one problem, let's not add yet another Islamic country. Sensibly Libya should join the Arab league.
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There is no need to waste time. France and Britain must move with troops to stop Ghadafi, the butcher of Tripoli. Gadhafi is not different from Saddam,the butcher of Bagdad. Butchers cannot hide under the Sovereignty of a nation while they butcher their own citizens and go scot free. This was a great moment for America to cut a pound of flesh out of Gadahfi for the Lockerbie terrorism in which Gadahfi murdered nearly 300 young American students. Obama didn't get it. Bravo France and Britain! Europe should wake up and take the lead from America. Bravo, Vivre La France!
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#7. threnodio_II
Merkel simply doesn't want the CDU to lose seats in upcoming state elections in Baden-Württemberg and Rhineland-Palatinate. Hence the closing of the German nuclear reactors and not participating in Libya.
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Mr Hewitt concludes with, "..But today the French will say they have won a battle for intervention. As Alain Juppe, the French foreign minister said: "We cannot allow these warmongers to go on. We cannot let international law be flouted."
My advice to any member of HM Armed Forces during this French led initiative against 'warmongers': KEEP YOUR HEAD WELL DOWN & WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T EXPECT A FRENCH ARMED FORCE OF ANY DESCRIPTION TO BE PUT AT RISK WHILST THERE'S ANY ONE ELSE AVAILABLE TO DO THE JOB!
The last time France's Government stood by 'International Law' & UNO commitments it withdrew from Rwanda... and we know what happened next!
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Sarkozy is trying to look decisive because he feels the hot breath of a slightly right wing lady on the back of his neck threatening his little empire. Only the fact that Obama finally got talked into making a decision led to the UN resolution. As for Europe being united, that is a joke, because if push comes to shove, the unity will disappear up the Champs or down a Dutch canal as quickly as it appeared. Having any of our EU neighbours watching our backs is not a position one would want to be forced into.
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Stepping in, and that has yet to happen, after the opposition has been crushed is like giving bonuses to bankers after the financial collapse.
The momentum has been lost and no trust of the West..Pitiful late response but the political take credit where none is due.
Maybe a barrel of oil will make a more appropriate statue.
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5. At 11:54am on 18 Mar 2011, WurzelJ wrote:
"..This is not Iraq. This time there is a UN mandate and support from the Arab League..."
Hm, must admit I don't see it that way at all.
14 U.N. Security Council Resolutions condemned Saddam's Iraq regime for violence against its owen people.
Every Resolution stipulated continued U.N.O. sanctions against the Saddam regime.
11 of those Resolutions supported a 'no-fly' zone to protect Iraq Kurdish community.
6 of those Resolutions included the terminology "..all available means.." as part of countering Saddam's offensives against Iraqi peoples.
When the US & UK used those same Resolutions to justify an invasion of Ieaq in 2003 they were condemned by many & by some it was called 'illegal'.
Now, You claim 2011 'no-fly' zone & upcoming attacks on Gaddafi's armed forces is an example of, "..The only way to deal with bullies is to hit them hard, immediately..."
Either You have a very short memory or an understanding of U.N Resolutions that is uniquely blind to the reality!
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Once again we see the completely ineffectual EU in (in)action. There are those who still seriously propose an EU defence force (ie a combined foreign and military service) as the future. When the chips go down it is always a national rather than an EU response that works, and sadly it is invariably the same nations that step up. Meanwhile the EU committee rooms fill with the talk of hand-wringing dreamers, who, whenever required to actually DO something, always come up short.
If this doesn't wake people up to the fraud that is the political union, then it is difficult to see what will. Whether it is the Euro, or a military operation, the EU is clearly unfit for purpose, and every time it comes up against the immovable force of reality, rather than the dreams of its apologists, it demonstrates its absurdity and irrelevance.
Good on Britain and France. Given the British toll in Afghanistan it would be nice to see some other EU nations throwing their hats into the ring on this one though. Perhaps Britain should reduce its contributions to the EU this year by the amount it costs to provide the EU with this fig leaf?
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Nothing about NFS. Where is France in Rwanda when people are being butchered. They did not intervene because Rwanda has no oil. In Libya, it is the oil.
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"bit afraid with France leadership because I believe that only US is cautious at "collateral damage" with their experience in Iraq and Afganistan "
You'll be surprised how legendary it is in non-Western world, but in the opposite sense.
"This was a great moment for America to cut a pound of flesh out of Gadahfi for the Lockerbie terrorism in which Gadahfi murdered nearly 300 young American students."
A journalist in Russia has written days ago that calls for a no-fly zone have a big personal scores' tint.
Yes. Pity they all don't pass regularly school-test exams or some IQ checks or something :o)))))
We heard here though that the Union of African Countries (52? 54? in) - voted against. But the Arab League countries (part of the african Union) voted for. But with reservations.
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Good journalism here. Glad to read it.
I agree that Germany has missed an important opportunity, and may lose standing. However, as posted earlier, they also have their past to reckon with. Surely, Europe would like to see Germany leading any military action from the rear (in spite of the fact that the German army has, of course, a fantastic military reputation to defend, in spite of its horrendous political mistakes and war crimes).
That being said, Europe should integrate its military and political potential further. It is clear that no EU nation could achieve this alone: if Cameron had not actively supported Sarkozy, it would not have happened.
I don't think this will affect the relationship between the three EU-big. The French-German axis is on the economy and political. The French-UK collaboration is military. We just need to bring them all under the same umbrella.
Oh, and to those who always mock the French military: the French army is one of the finest forces in the world. They have once conquered the whole of the European continent, against some of the most powerful forces of the time. It took literally all of the rest of Europe, and the British Empire, together to defeat them. They withstood the then most powerful attack in history in 1914, and went on to fight and defeat the mighty German army until 1918.
Their political and military leaders betrayed them in 1940 - but every army and nation has its weak campaigns. They do not reflect national character, and I for one think that the degrading and insulting approaches to them bring down those who make the comments, not its recipients.
As to Rwanda: we are seeing progress in action. It should have happened earlier, but at least it's happening.
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25. At 2:33pm on 18 Mar 2011, PickledPete wrote:
"..Given the British toll in Afghanistan it would be nice to see some other EU nations throwing their hats into the ring on this one though..."
Don't hold Your breath, or, in this case leave Your parachute of cynacism behind!
Any idea that the Air Forces of Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Greece etc. the alleged NATO 'Allies' will be put in 'harms way' is a non-starter: There isn't a formation they can't fly in reverse gear!
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The French can start whatever action is permissible under the new UN Resolution anytime it wants. So what does the UN Resoution say?
(The destruction of Iraq began March 19th. Maybe in striking Libya, this will be France's date of celebration.)
The French cannot destroy Libya as the Americans destroyed Iraq,
They can only
- protect civilians
- provide AID and
- no occupation.
If Libya (like Iraq) is destroyed - schools, educational system, infrastructure, etc. there will have to be a lot of readily apparent war criminals. The international community is well-aware that war-criminal activity has occurred and is still occuring in Iraq, commencing with the illegal invasion/occupation.
I have this gut feeling that there may be many "mistakes" in Libya - collateral damage, civilians. I have this gut feeling that there may be many "mistakes" in Libya like ancient architecture destroyed. I have this gut feeling that there may be many "mistakes" - infrastructure destroyed, an embargo making rebuilding impossible.
I have this gut feeling that there are already feet on the ground, clandestine feet that walk in the shadow of evil
- CIA
- M16
- MOSSAD
- Mercenaries.
How will Britain, France, Israel and the US cover these footprints?
Will this new global coalition be able to cover its tracks, turning Libya into an African-sweet-cride colony?
If the west succeeds, watch the contracts flow to foreign companies - rebuilding contracts, oil work contracts (especially BP) and of course the Libyan frozen assets will be stolen, absorbed into the fiscal deficit of each country that so honourably took part in this false liberation.
Here is the new "Shock and Awe". The Un says:
- protect civilians
- provide AID and
- no occupation.
But the West is doing what the west does best:
- bring democracy,
- liberate Libya
- get rid of the mad dog.
It will not take long for the guilty to emerge
- who interjected the foreign feet on the ground,
- who armed the rebels,
- who bribed whom
- who were the real rebels
- where did they get their heavy artillery
You know what?
I don't think many countriers will be surprised at which countries caused all this destabilization in Libya.
Will Gaddafi outwit these foreigners?
I think he can.
This Sunday at midnight, he has called for a moratorium during which all Libyan rebels can lay down their weapons and have amnesty/forgiveness; so what will the mercenaries and the clandestine operations do? I think this is a clever way to seperate the wheat from the chafe. I wonder what will happen...
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Uk inconsistency. During the Nigeria civil war, the British government supported the Nigerian government with arms and mercenaries. The Nigerian troops masacered the Biafrans, including the civilians. Biafrans are called rebels. If you go to history books you will understand why J.P. Satre supported Biafrans. The British government supervised the genocide commited in the 3 years war. Why are they supporting the rebels in Libya. Truth is the British government pitch their tent where they can gain and in Libya's case: it is the oil.
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31. At 3:55pm on 18 Mar 2011, Che Guevara wrote:
"..Truth is the British government pitch their tent where they can gain and in Libya's case: it is the oil."
Yeah, You're so right and of course it is only the British!
The Chinese, Americans, Russians, Indians, Saudis, Brazilians, Indonesians, Germans, Turkish... and especially not Nigerians... None of them would ever do such a thing, would they!?
'Che'! Unlike Your genuine name-sake, how little You know of the World!
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I am fine with this decision as long as France takes care of all the additional muslim asylum seekers who will use the soon-to-be opened borders of Libya in order to make their way to Europe.
Frankly, I am opposed to any military action of Germany against Libya. It`s non of our business and I am not willing to pay a single cent for such a mission.
As long as the Schengen-region is not capable of defending its own borders, I am even willing to accept a tyrant in a neighbouring country who blocks illegal muslim immigrants and asylum seekers on their track.
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19 jonyinternational writes:
"This was a great moment for America to cut a pound of flesh out of Gadahfi for the Lockerbie terrorism in which Gadahfi murdered nearly 300 young American students."
---------------------------
Remember this?
"Iran Air Flight 655 (IR655) was a civilian jet airliner shot down by U.S. missiles on 3 July 1988, over the Strait of Hormuz, toward the end of the Iran–Iraq War. The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2-203 operated by Iran Air, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran, to Dubai, United Arab Emirates, when it was destroyed by the U.S. Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 66 children,[1] ranking it seventh among the deadliest airliner fatalities.[2] It was the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Indian Ocean and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus A300 anywhere in the world. Vincennes was traversing the Strait of Hormuz, inside Iranian territorial waters, and at the time of the attack IR655 was within Iranian airspace.
In 1996, the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million, an average of $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.
However, the United States has never admitted responsibility, nor apologized to Iran."
Are you looking forward to a tit-for-tat here as well? Incidentally Libya paid $1.8 billion into a compensation fund for the victims of Lockerbie, rather generous compared to the USA figures given here.
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Libya and Sarkozy's moment or Libya and Gaddafi's moment:
Muammar Gaddafi has declared a unilateral ceasefire.
Further, Gadaffi has called for dialogue with all sides.
France, a leading advocate of military action, said it was cautious about the ceasefire and that fundamentally the "threat on the ground has not changed". France is to host the international talks this Saturday re coordination of the implementation of UN Resolution.
Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, said Libya was "not afraid" of the UN resolution. He said the army would surround but not enter Benghazi and "anti-terror" forces would be sent in to disarm the so-called rebel forces. Some rebels have already fled to the Egyptian border.
Libya's military airfields are mostly strung along the Mediterranean coast, as are its population centres and therefore the likelihood of high collateral damage became a factor in Gaddafi's decision.
Gaddafi warned Benghazi that only those who laid down their arms before his advancing troops would be spared the vengeance awaiting "rats and dogs".
So, now what? The mad dog appears to have morphed into the sly fox.
The UN Resolution was to protect "civilians", but Gaddafi has called a unilateral ceasefire which or course, will protect the "civilians".
What else can the UN Global Partners do
- bring AID
- set their feet on the ground only temporarily because they must not occupy?
I think the most important part of what Gaddafi has done is to call for dialogue with all sides because, if this dialogue is well-handled, at least a little dribble of the truth should start to sputter out and some questions will get answered:
Who were these so-called rebels?
Who financed them?
Who provided their heavy military equipment?
I don't think the answers will surprise the world, but there is a need to table the COUNTRIES INVOLVED nonetheless. My guess
- USA, CIA
- BRITAIN M16
- ISRAEL IDF/MOSSAD.
No matter what, this is a clever counter-move by Gaddafi.
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34. At 5:29pm on 18 Mar 2011, margaret howard wrote:
Superb Margaret, really superb: Factually accurate, thoughtfully set-out & delivered without undue rancour.
So, why is it You so very often fail to attain this very high standard?
Might I suggest it is because more often not You are in such haste to condemn Americ(ans)/Britain(ons) You lose sight of 'objectivity' and thus almost ruin such as #34 because people dismiss Your stuff out-of-hand.
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The French have deep business links with their former colonies across North Africa and the Middle East.
Yes, the French have a very unfortunate history. Yet, we don't talk about that do we?
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What is the matter with you people? Do you not see the ghastly cynicism behind all this?
Obama, Cameron, Merkel and Sarkozy all have domestic political axes to grind. Obama has been canny by suddenly remembering the UN exists, Cameron and Sarkozy are going for it in a aggressive way because, for different reasons, they both need to make an impact and Merkel would dearly love it if everyone forgot Germany existed until all this has blown over.
Do you really think anyone gives a damn about the people on the ground?
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#36 - cool_brush_work
#34 - margaret howard
Factually accurate? Well . . .
178 American citizens in total were killed so quite where her '300 American students' came from is something of a mystery.
But, for once, yes - credit where due. Good point, well made.
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Threnodio
In Margaret's defence (dammit!) it was jonyinternational referred to '300'.
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It also might do harm to remember that 66 of the fatalities on 9/11 were British. International terrorism has international consequences and I am not sure that playing the numbers game is useful.
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BluesBerry,
to give Kaddafi credit, he turned a total Peace Dove :o))))))))), announced cease-fire starting from Sunday night, BEFORE UN vote results were known. I read of his cease-fire to start Sunday night on Echo yesterday in the evening, before the UN sat down to vote.
I thought back then his plan is to take Bengazi yesterday night, thus finish it off with the opposition, have one day extra what's with this and that, and naturally finish it off elegantly by cease-fire as of Sunday.
:o)))))))
Looks like he was scared to take Bengazi after the UN vote?
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#42 - WebAliceinwonderland
The announcement of the ceasefire included a reference to the UN resolution. How could this have been possible before there was one? He was never going to take and Benghazi in one night and the Echo was never going to tell you the truth.
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threnodio,
because of you (an infidel;)))))), I spent already an hour rolling back Echo's news band, and those damn news entries come about every 1 max 2 minutes, (as they are not bunched by geography as here) (it's not BBC, it's a small place) (so it goes like :21 Magate gave Fukisima danger level 5 out of 7.... :22 A roof fell from snow weight in Samara... :23 Organisers of concert where Putin sang say they collected zero roubles and transferred zero roubles to the cancer treatment children hospitals... :24 Opposition is unhappy with cease fire as say Kadafi is a liar ...25: Etc.
and there are many minutes in a couple of days!
Then, from every news without exception there starts a comments place for the readers....... To say nothing of the Libya devoted blogs swarm:o)))))))0
In short I give up. But you don't have victory mind it :o))))) As I am not yet mad and I read it somewhere before the vote took place btw 01;00 and 01:43 Moscow time.
It was mentioned when his plans to take Bengazi got advertised, but I don't remember exactly when it got known. Even before his address to the opposition ("will search every street every house" "will die here for Libyans may Allah be with me"). But after it got known that he acquired a fresh breath and attacks now. And after him taking some town and making all grabatised cheer for him.
He offered Bengazians and the other city ? forgot the name Misrat-ians? to surrender give up arms AND that as of Sunday he will announce a cease-fire giving time to all willing present themselves and surrender.
I agree this is not his formal Friday afternoon cease-fire with calls for "the main thing is preserve precious lives of all Libyans" and other highly humanitarian statements :o)))) - that was Friday afternoon.
And after ab 14-16 hrs than the UN resolution.
But he did say to Libyans about cease-fire as of Sunday BEFORE - as time for surrender to him. That was his idea of the proper cease-fire purpose. :o))))
what resolution did to Kaddafi plans is this cease-fire took place on Friday, a day earlier, and is not meant as surrender time exclusively :o))) anymore.
he let them goMay be even 2 days ago. when he promised to take Bengazi and, like, surrender or else.
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The whole Libyan crisis just alleviates that the European Union needs more integration and powers to be able to handle crisis like the one in Libya. Currently the EU can form an common opinion and policy in few weeks time frame. It can react to events, but it can't lead events. This is not an failure of the current system, the system works as it was more or less designed.
Specifically, what Europe needs is...
A) European defence and intelligence agencies that prepare and plan for different likely and unlike scenarios happening in Europe, near Europe and around globe. Thus in crisis situation enabling them to quickly submit different plans for action to the political leadership to be put in usage very quickly.
B) European political mechanism to quickly decide and execute foreign policy with adequate resources and power. One solution could be that a group of people, for example the President of the European Council, the High Representative of Foreign Affairs and Security Policy together with a group of European Parliament could make quick decisions with a simple majority and order small scale military operations.
C) Give free and ultimate power to decide about foreign policy and defence decisions to the European Council and Parliament. For example European Council can initiate and vote with Qualified Majority to vote for an act to declare a war that the European Parliament then can either reject or accept with simple majority.
These new powers of course need changes to the structure of the EU and more specifically enlargement of voting rights of the people. In this case the people need to vote in pan European elections the President of the European Council, they also would need to have mechanisms in member states to recall elections of at least their European Parliament members and Council officials.
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#45. At 10:39am on 19 Mar 2011, Jukka Rohila
I truly wonder about people like you, the last few weeks have shown there are so many fundamental differences between the EU member states as to make the idea of an European Defence force run by the EU both dangerous and foolhardy. The EU already has too many powers yet you call for more, allocating more will not stop member states horse trading, playing politics etc and if our safety in any way were to rely on such decision making heaven help us since the EU will not.
Within the EU there are a small number of hawks, and a lot of pacifists who bleat on about integration and cooperation, has your Finland agreed to send support for this new military task or are they still talking about it like pacifists always do.
Incidently, my comments are not saying whether I agree or not with the intervention over Libya but simply how pathetic the EU has shown itself to be and how increased integration or powers are the last thing that should ever happen. As for Libya and North Africa I think our only "raison d'etre" to be involved is to ensure migration into the EU is stopped, we are over populated, with too few jobs and too many unskilled.
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Those protestors grabatised Russian tanker on Thursday, with 22 crew on board, towed it to Tobruk (protestor land) and not a word not a phone call from the crew since.
Russian journalists sit 3 days on the border of Egypt and protestors Libya land and are not able to enter Libya. They let in journalists very selectively. They were constantly getting promises from inside, were patrol-accompanied taken in, then taken out, then taken in :o))))
and basically that's how it goes 100 metres in 100 metres off :o))))) with promises every hour and no permission to go and have a look.
The only explanation they've got is "foreign correspondents have tricky mobile devices and can attract planes to bomb, tell the location. Or they show us in the news and then Kaddafi watches TV and advances to where it is shown."
This is all reasonable. more or less. But the tanker! That's some sea pirates not protestors!
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AiW Re: unclear rational for Russia's absention in UNSC:
"How many Russians were abroad post-perestroyka in percentage? 7% 12% ?
Of which most were in Turkey on the beach non-visa anyway.
That's the ideas (some of us) have about "abroad""
Alice, somewhere between Antalya and Alanya, hospitable Turks have built a gaudy mini-replica of the Kremlin and served in their hotels dishes such as "borscht" and "bliny" to make Russian tourists feel at home.
One of the Russian female tourist's reaction reported by the media
(if I recall also by BBC):
"We haven't saved to finally go to a foreign country only to feel like we've never left our motherland". :-)
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Re #8 PMK: "in his N. America blog, Mark Mardell has suggested that the first planes enforcing a no-fly zone would take off in a matter of hours after the pertinent resolution was adopted by UNSC.
It's an afternoon on the next day, and I still can't see any jets approaching Tripoli from the north.
Could it be they were scrambled from Gabon?"
An update: Saturday afternoon Libya time.
Still no French fighter-bombers arriving from the north, or even south.
[no Spanish Armada off Tripoli either.]
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CBW: Any idea that the Air Forces of Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Greece etc. the alleged NATO 'Allies' will be put in 'harms way' is a non-starter: There isn't a formation they can't fly in reverse gear!
If Harriers were still around and those heroic nations would have them flying in reverse would be much easier. [with thrust vectoring :-)]
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49 powermeer writes:
An update: Saturday afternoon Libya time.
Still no French fighter-bombers arriving from the north, or even south.
[no Spanish Armada off Tripoli either.]
-----------------------------------------
16.43 pm 19.03.11 BBC News
"French military jets are preventing forces loyal to Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi from attacking the rebel-held city of Benghazi, French President Nicolas Sarkozy says.It is believed to be the first act of intervention since the UN voted on Thursday for a no-fly zone over Libya."
And the euro is worth 1.42 today!
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Re #47 AiW "But the tanker! That's some sea pirates not protestors!"
Alice, perhaps Russian Navy should establish a "no-pirate" zone off
Berberian (barbaric?) coast?
And not only off Cape Verde? ;-)
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Re #51
What Sarko says is about as credible as what Muammar says.
P.S. I can see that you still cannot comprehend that strong euro is detrimentral to EU's recovery, and can't understand why we (U$A) are priting extra 600 BILLION dollars as fast as we can. :-)))
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Re #51 mh:
Gaddafi's tanks already are IN Benghazi.
But there's an indirect evidence that French fighter planes opened fire:
"Reports from Benghazi suggest hundreds of cars packed with people were fleeing eastwards".
[the only hope seems to be that Luftwaffe...despite everything... ]
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Sarkozy meets hypocracy and is overwhelmed.
Marcy 19 - a perfect historical date the begin another war, this being the date of the invasion of Iraq.
On March 17, 2011, Washington, the same White House that has continuously thwarted UN Resolutions against Israel, pushed through a UN Security Council resolution (1973) that is really declaration of WAR AGAINST LIBYA.
The resolution goes beyond a no-fly zone. It includes language saying UN member states could "take all necessary measures" to
- halt attacks by air, land and sea forces
- under the control of the Gadhafi regime.
The new resolution can be used to
- attack Libyan aircraft and air defenses, as well as
- strafe and bombing ground forces.
No matter what your opinion about Libya or Gaddafi, another covertly US-led war or intervention in Libya will be a disaster for the Libyan civilians.
Nothing exposes the disregard for civilians like BAHRAIN.
That the US & its allies are acting from humanitarian motives are: Fools' words, believed only by fools.
The US Fifth Fleet is in Bahrain. Bahrain People have been trying to change their government for weeks. The king responded with repression and HINTS OF POTENTIAL REFORM. Hours after the American Secretary of Defense Gates visited Bahrain, the Bahraini Government started its crackdown backed by Saudi Arabian troops - helicopters, tear gas, rubber bullets, and live ammunition.
There has been no talk of a no-fly zone over Bahrain...
Why?
Because the American motivation in both Bahrain and Libya, and indeed the whole of the Middle East and Northern Africa, is to CONTROL THE OIL! A reliable puppet in Libya is an ultimate goal.
What about this so-called Arab approval?
In fact only 11 of the 22 members of the League attended; the meeting was held in secret. Two of the 11 attending members, Syria and Algeria, made clear that they were opposed to any military intervention in Libya. So, there was NO meaningful Arab support.
Meanwhile the western media has been complicit in ignoring a resolution by the African Union - representing 53 countries - which rejected a no-fly zone or any other intervention.
Think what you like about Gaddafi, but what has been done to Libya through secrecy, misrepresentation and simply non-reporting has been carefully orchestrated by the US, the UK, France and other global partners.
And in my opinion, it is just plain wrong and perhaps even evil.
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#45 - Jukka Rohila
The European Solution, yes Jukka?
And just how do you propose to do this all the time the French and British are playing macho men, the Med region countries are making their air bases available but not actually doing anything and the Germans are sitting on their hands and wondering if their moment will come when they can say "We told you so".
There is about as much chance of achieving a common foreign and defense policy as there is of an EU manned mission to Venus. Get used to it, Jukka. The idea is dead in the water until we get rid of the current generation of European leadership.
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45. At 10:39am on 19 Mar 2011, Jukka Rohila wrote:
"The whole Libyan crisis just **alleviates** that the European Union needs more integration and powers to be able to handle crisis like the one in Libya."
**alleviates** = Apologies J_R, but I believe You meant to write 'elevates'; even so, I'm sure others comprehend Your contribution.
So, just to be clear it is the content to which I wholly object.
IMO, heaven or whatever saving grace/phenomena is out there & hopefully it will be good, old fashioned, plain, Human Common-Sense will protect us from every word of Your A), B) and C)!
A more dangerously anti-Democratic & frighteningly centralised fate for the British Isles & Continental EUrope I cannot envisage.
Conscious of the duty we all hold to future generations it staggers the imagination even someone as 'pro-EU' as Yourself could contemplate all that authority & power placed in the hands of an unaccountable, unresponsive elite in Brussels!
'Peace or War' for 500,000,000+ Citizens made the responsibility of a dozen unelected, untouchable functionaries.
The apotheosis of the EU-Brussels entity: Truly the Orwellian nightmare writ large!
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56. At 5:45pm on 19 Mar 2011, threnodio_II wrote:
#45 - Jukka Rohila
The European Solution, yes Jukka?
"..There is about as much chance of achieving a common foreign and defense policy as there is of an EU manned mission to Venus. Get used to it, Jukka. The idea is dead in the water..."
Amen! Or in Humanitarian terms, thank the bright, long, promising day and the dark, contemplative night that nothing of the sort shall prevail!
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Just hearing (BBC News)that Germany has backed down and will commit further resources to Afghanistan to free up resources for Libya. Merkel is talking about the strength of international feeling and Germany feeling the need to comply. Bit of a climbdown?
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From now on it's not interesting, we all know the next news and next news and next.
This is some ? how you call it, that deepening in an earthen road, two parallel deeper ? things from the wheels. Where you get into to and then ride the ready route and can't get out.
BluesBerry I side with most of what you point out.
I somehow always sympathise with the weaker side :o))))), not knowing much of a situation.
When Kaddafi was threatening protesters - I sympathised with protestors. One side is armed, the other one shouts something in streets and squares, un-armed.
When protestors began to be shown with huge rockets in hands, posing spectacularly, like staged up ready pictures by various ? hanging on tanks, lots of military gear - I thought these are no more civillians.
Civillians are not armed like that.
But I thought, alright, the balance of power is getting restored, a mob on western side of the country, a mob on eastern side of the country, they are competing, munition seems the same, none apparent winners, none of our business.
Now we have a third party in play, armed much better :o))))))) than any mob on the ground.
I sympathise with the mob on the ground targeted, because they are weaker. I have a feeling that many russians feel the same, as I read in the blogs now not "Kadafi", "tyran" etc. but he quickly became mentioned as
(how is faring our) "Muamar Ivanovich Kadafi"
(this afternnon I wonder?)
:o))))))000
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60. At 6:39pm on 19 Mar 2011, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
"I somehow always sympathise with the weaker side :o))))), not knowing much of a situation.
When Kaddafi was threatening protesters - I sympathised with protestors. One side is armed, the other one shouts something in streets and squares, un-armed."
Surprised that You write such a thing WebAlice!
Whilst I don't agree with the British getting involved in Libya (UK has enough on its plate - - let the French finally make their Armed Forces depart the parade ground and risk more than polishing boots) I'm unaware how anyone could view Gaddafi as the 'weaker side' within the context of the civil war!?
Gaddafi is 'weaker' against the intervening powers, yes: But 'weaker' than those Libyans he is in the process of butchering (the 'armed mob') to maintain the family regime!? No.
The 'armed mob' may not be drawn from Libya's most democratic echelons and probably aren't anymore enlightened followers of Islam than almost all of the North African-Middle East 'leadership', however, they should owing in some part their futures to the 'west' at least be a more reasonable bunch than Gaddafi & Son have shown themselves over the decades.
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cool-brush I confess I dont feel for those protesting Libyans. They are way too well-armed, looking not sad, not hungry, I mean, they don't look like people who someone oppresses and kills. We've seen here suffering, may be have different standards simply. They seem alien and dangerous to me, can't help it.
Good for you if you can recognise in them people in need of help. You the West had more time experience seeing different folks abroad.
It might have helped if any of the protestors travelled West sat in front of a camera and answered audience questions/ Who he is, what clan, the pre-history, the well-being or bad being, his woes, his dreams, his life plans.
All they do is pose for standard pictures and tell 'democracy" to interviewing journalists or make a sign 'victory' or "will personally kill Kadafi".
This isn't satisfactory for Russians, at least, who don't get caught onto "democracy" like on a hook.
As to being West-dependant, the next crop of Livia rulers, well, you can interpret it differently, the pro-s and contra-s ;o))))))
May be there will be less of Lockerby and less of Bulgarian medical nurses, less of various terrorism acts, as a result. Hopefully. Indeed.
May be - more of it. Hell knows.
You sure that's not another mob coming to power? You aren't, but chose to risk and be pro-active, because that's simply your known sporty traditions.
For Russia, good relations with the West are more important than some Libya, we sold it down the river to please you. From Kadafi there has never been any practical use to Russia :o)))), only a lot of bothering with his superiority mania. So, naturally, seeing how eager and energised the three Western ones are - we gave up Kaddafi as a cheap chip.
Russian veto right is a too precious thing to spend it these days on minor things. I think we are interested to keep our right of veto onwards in future, because when you spend it too often there start some unlovely talks about who should keep the veto right. :o)
I am sure Russia sees this affair extremely idiotic, but chose the lesser evil for itself.
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Within last hour US naval assets in the Med has launched about a dozen Tomahawks targetting Libyan anti-aircraft missile batteries (SAMs), radar stations, and most likely (although nobody is confirming it) Gaddafi's command&control centers in Western Libya.
Several loud explosions and blasts have been reported in and near Tripoli which would seem to confirm that.
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and, cool-brush, what do we now about "butchering" there.
these digital days, 2 weeks of war, I saw only one video how people stand by road side in the desert, clustered in groups (allarmed with those anti-helicopter and airplane rockets, by the way, those hand handable ones, Afghanistan type :o)), i would say
then a bang a smoke and a car with them plain disappears, hit from above/ Thats where state killed a group of militants, yes, true, and awful.
But as to "piles of dead bodies" or other scares - not a photo , no nothing - and this is still with journalists there (a bit - but there are), BBC, France Presse, Reuters, but even nevermind them, journalists are very limited in travl there - but those protesters themselves, eager to gain the worlds support - why couldn't they come up with photos on mobile or something.
______________
by the way, threnodio, in case you say later Ive got bad memory again :o)
This aiplane, kicked off from the skies this morning, a Mirage - French journalists said the opposition to Kadafi said them it is their, the opposition, Mirage.
The opposition violated the no-fly regime - not Kadafi forces - now, logically :o)))))))))) the French punish Libyan state forces for it.
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O, tomohawks fired.
Jesus Christ, thank God we have nuclear arms.
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Re 64 Alice!
Perhaps Libyan rebels used Mirages without France's permission.;-)
P.S. Alice, do not panic. Tomahawk is an old, traditional Indian weapon.
[Unlike, say, B-61]
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Re# 66
Alice, relax, rebels were not flying a Mirage.
But an old MiG-23.
Now, doesn't it make you feel better? :-)
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8. At 12:10pm on 18 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:
"It's nice to know that mighty EU has somebody to look up to and take a cue from: Arab League."
It is not about taking cues but about acceptance in the entire region. To Europeans there is a HUGE difference between being seen as an surpressing ex-colonial power and a liberator welcomed and supported in the region. Something some Americans won't ever understand I suppose...
# 20 James:
If she were about not losing the elections she would actually join into the war as the majority of the Germans seems to agree with helping the civilians, even if that means joining this war.
And that said of course our politicians play the role they assume they have to. Sarkozy already accepted the rebels as new legal authority in Libya also this might be one of his last chances to gain back support in the french public.
Merkel seems to be too concerned whether our nuclear power plants will run 4, 8 or 12 more years - which at this point doesn't make much of a difference and can be decided in the upcoming months - oh no wait there are elections next week :-/
Anyway the problem I see with the now going military expedition is that the UN specifically demanded to save the lives of civilians rather than removing Ghadafi. I hope Sarkozy and Cameron do not forget that. Technically if the rebels gained ground again and would be sieging cities such as Tripolis, the new entente cordiale would have to intervene against them.
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WebAlice, we ALL love your perspective driven comments as
NEWS..not propaganda..
refreshing to get ALL sides views..
As for Bluesberry....he/she--NO offense to he/she--says nothing different Ever, but it was nice of you to keep his spirits Up and Helping him to continue writing his comments :))
One *wonders* about His sources, but not about his abilities..
Much welcome to all free thinking commenters here..AND
Nik, DO Come Back!!!..
your comments ARE missed
By ME:)))
"Yes, I Can" should be your motto,
Nik, Blueberry, and others who have differing opinions
:))
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Look at PMK, CBW, MH, Threnodio II comments...
they do not worry and they all deliver Confident
And Differing opinions---
as do You, Web Alice, Too ("I'm a poet and I didn't know it")
:))
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An old MIG-23 in the morning was "SU".
Until French said it's Mirage :o))))) And that the pilot has ? catapulted out but they think didn't survive.
__________
Anyway, won't be spoiling you the day; after all it's your people fighting. bedouines. :o)))))))
PS Have you counted your expenses well, powermeer. If it's true that a tomohawk launch is million dollars in expenses, that's 110 of them already. One would think they weren't pointed in one and the same spot?
For this money you could have bought 110 flaming Jamahirians.
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53 powermeer writes in reply to my *51 'And the euro is worth 1.42':
"I can see that you still cannot comprehend that strong euro is detrimentral to EU's recovery, and can't understand why we (U$A) are priting extra 600 BILLION dollars as fast as we can.
----------------------------------------
I only mentioned the new strength of the euro as during the past few months you showed such an interest when it was in such difficulty. For example on 9 dec 'What now for the euro' you wrote:
"There's an insciption 'In God we Trust' on US $ notes. Perhaps euro bank notes should be modified to read: "God Help Us"?
(btw toilet paper might come useful when s... finally hits the fan.)
------------------------------
And on the 10 jan in 'The Euro - fear returns' you wrote: "And last week's euro to US $ exchange rates to 1.29. Please stand by for further development."
And a little later:
6 months ago: US$ to euro = ca 1.40
A month ago US$ to euro = 1.34
Last week US$ to euro = 1.29
And that despite US government devaluating US dollar by printing 600 BILLION extra bucks.
Can you explain that?
-----------------------------
I didn't know that what your really meant was that a weak and falling euro was good for us Europeans and not just useful as loo paper. Should you now stop printing extra bucks?
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63 powermeer writes:
"Within last hour US naval assets in the Med has launched about a dozen Tomahawks targetting Libyan anti-aircraft missile batteries (SAMs), radar stations, and most likely (although nobody is confirming it) Gaddafi's command&control centers in Western Libya."
Hope you have more luck with him this time. Last time you tried to kill him he escaped by hiding in a tent in the desert.
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Here....
I never kissed a man before
now isn't that a shame
I never kissed a man before
before I knew his name
I never had a taste for wine before
now isn't that a sin
I never had a taste for wine before
because all I preferred was gin
It's nice as nice can be
my faith is at last restored
to know that vice can be
its own reward
I always go to bed at 10
now isn't that a bore
I always go to bed at 10
then I go home at 4
:)))
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#45
You are right, of course.
The interesting point is that, when asked about these matters, europeans clearly mention foreign and defense policy as THE area to become more integrated.
Seems like our populations are ahead of our politicians. I would agree with some here that our leadership is not the strongest. Then again, the essence of democracy is that you get the leaders you deserve.
It would therefore be a good idea to strengthen both the functioning and legitimacy of the EU level further (note the "further", meaning there is quite a bit of it already), e.g. by organising cross-EU elections and political debate in a way that currently does not exist enough or clearly enough. It is true we need more of a majority/minority debate at EU level, which can then be submitted to scrutiny in elections. This is actually happening as we speak, but rather slowly. It would be a good idea to give it a bit of a jolt, e.g. direct elections of the Council president or some other EU post.
Put simply: when Merkel wants to decide on the details of economic "governance" of the Eurozone, I want to be able to vote for or against whatever program she submits.
Note that most member-states would reject this, because it would give too much power to that post.
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60 webalice writes:
"This is some ? how you call it, that deepening in an earthen road, two parallel deeper ? things from the wheels. Where you get into to and then ride the ready route and can't get out."
Getting into a rut.
As for the rest of your observations look at a map to see what the countries which America and her 'allies' claim to liberate these days all have in common - OIL.
You say at 62:
"I confess I dont feel for those protesting Libyans. They are way too well-armed, looking not sad, not hungry, I mean, they don't look like people who someone oppresses and kills. We've seen here suffering, may be have different standards simply. They seem alien and dangerous to me, can't help it."
Quite agree. Just who are they and who armed them? Friends who have worked there told me that Libyans have a higher standard of living than many countries in the west and excellent facilities for schooling, health care etc. They are so well off that many refuse to do any menial jobs and bring in cheap foreign labour to do it for them.
Everyone knew that Gadaffi was mad and yet sucked up to him in a shameful manner. And now all of a sudden he 'butchers and oppresses his own poor people. As I have said before, the allies hypocrisy is alive and well - so hurray for countries like Germany, Russia, China etc who haven't joined the madness (yet).
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David, see here, ab Sov. propaganda. Just wait another 100 years :o)))))), and you'll see.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12785695
Well. To be objective, for most of it to come true a thousand years wont be enough :o))))))
Anyway there it's all wrongly said; it's because Lenin and Stalin were only two of our rulers who ever managed to out-wit Britain. With the rest it was hopeless :o))))) But that's why, its special relation :o))))) to the two.
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Margaret, you won't deny that taken separately (I am sure you met far more English and Americans than I did), none of acquaintance ever displayed un-healthy interest for oil. :o))))))))))
I remember many un-usual habits of acquainatnce, but for one thing, they were definitely non-oil thirsty ;o))))))
Can it be then they are so detached on the ground from what their governments eh find reasonable as politics and action that they dont know themselves what they are doing? as a collective life form :o))), I mean.
We find it here unlikely - but - judging by own experience. Because our governments usually share the same vices as people on the ground, are understandable and predictable to us. Just the degree differs.
(Well, with the exception when they come from another, non main stream, local culture.)
(like, today, in Moscow bill-boards are being taken off from the street by the government, without explanations :o))))), for these announce a new newspaper appearance, and they chose a flashy quote for its launch advertisement, Feodor Tutchev 19th century poet:
"Russian history before Peter I was total ? "panikhida"
/church burial service/ /whining, dark ages, and sad/, and, after him - total criminal-ity." ;o)))))))))
Do they believe when , like, Obama says "we will save . we can't see them suffering..." what he said today? Does he believe it himself?
I don't know how it started, may be the first democracy slogan for int'l quarters was a cover-up for some oil expedition, but I have a feeling they repeated it so often that by now believe in it themselves - as they seem absolutely genuine in their beliefs, convincing, they do think they hunt after democracy.
What can you do with such people.
The main thing, is to be able to protect oneself from them :o))))))))
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Also, for us a hunt after oil seems a funny explanation, big deal oil and all, how to say. We suspect deeper waters in this obsession :o))))))
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"getting into a rut." aha.
David,
"It is my fault, and I pour tears, and ouch and oh
I got into a rut, a deepy one!
I used to set my objectives, myself, and of my own choice
And now I can't get out of a ready rut.
It has quite steep and slippery edges, that rut.
I damn the ones who laid it out!
And do conjugations with it, repeating, like school kid:
"Into the rut, by the rut, with the rut."
.....
Here, someone shouted, beyond himself "Hey, let me go!"
Began disputing with the rut, from foolishness.
He lost, in this dispute, all the stores of his heart warmth,
and there flew to sides bits and pieces of his car.
However, he damaged the sides of the rut, a bit,
It seems to be wider now..... ;o)
There his tracks, though, finish
The chap was tugged off away to the side :o)
So that he wont stand in the way of us, the ones behind :o)
blocking us , to follow this foreign rut.
..I see, the edge has been washed by spring waters, a bit - wow good luck!
There is an exit from that rut - a salvation.
...
Hey, you! The ones behind! Do as I do!
Which means - don't follow me!
This rut - is only mine.
Get out by your own one
Try to get out by your own one
Get out - by your own one.
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Morning Gavin,
my response to the UN sanctioned attacks on Libya is, here we go again!
Is it coincidence that Mr Obama, Mr Cameron, Mr Sarkozy and the Canadian Prime Minister are not very popular at home? Will this action enhance their ability to be re-elected?
People of all sides die in Missile and bomb attacks.
All of these leaders were silent when Sri-Lanka killed civilians to confront their declared freedom fighters. What about the African wars? A calculation was done on COST to decide not to intervene in the genocide there.
It strikes me that the UN has been subverted to be an instrument of American foreign policy where pre-emptive strikes (once banned) are now legitimate. How can this be?
The West collectively and politicians in particular have learnt nothing from killing civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan where western interests were threatened.
I have little time for dictators of any country but intervention by indiscriminate force cannot be the statesmans solution everytime.
I am very afraid that far from fighting terrorism, this action will unleash a backlash on the innocent civilians in the countries of the so-called coallition.
I hope that I am proven wrong!
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To be proven wrong, Mr Splendid HashBrowns,
Someone would have to research (reliable) statistical and historical records (some claim that any old source will do...).
I suspect you are biased against these nations, actually. You dislike powerful nations and it IS
the fashion to hate or extremely dislike Americans and America (the United States of North America between Canada and Mexico).
Aren't you so proud to be so biased? I mean, the US bankrupts itself for FUNZIES
Just for your sanity. Oh the power, the glory of driving you insane...
priceless :))))
.
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Also, think about it.
Is he doing it to appear competent (he helped Japan recently--oh how mean!)?,
Or is he doing it for oil prices? More likely....one doesn't let one's own economy go to rock bottom without spending some money to try to stop it.
The killing of civilians has been proven to be counter productive to one's own foreign policy objectives...
Therefore, I think he is thinking with his conscience in this regard...
nott his pocketbook..but, for "our pocket books" (kind of an old term, huh)
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This would appear to make Gaddafi rather STUUUPIDDD--if Mr Gaddafi wanted to keep HIS job
.....Poor Americans..perhaps having to finance this rather uncertain objective ...
hmmm, perhaps, Europe will be paying for this one sooo,
Poor Europe :(((
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see, Mr. Splendid, you DID make Me think ...hmmmm.
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63 powermeer writes:
"Within last hour US naval assets in the Med has launched about a dozen Tomahawks [the number's over a hundred by now (late Sunday evening) - PMK] targetting Libyan anti-aircraft missile batteries (SAMs), radar stations, and most likely (although nobody is confirming it) Gaddafi's command&control centers in Western Libya."
margaret howard reacted:
Hope you have more luck with him this time. Last time you tried to kill him he escaped by hiding in a tent in the desert.
Another nice try, but again no cigar. ;-(
Qaddafi (as Gaddafi was known then) survived by hiding in his underground reinforced concrete bunker after Italians trecherously warned him that US planes participating in a retaliatory strike had passed Italy's southern coast and would be over Tripoli pretty soon.
[Please, do read something on Operation El Dorado Canyon]
Btw. Qaddafi lived in a tent in Paris while visiting his then close friend, Sarko .
As for his his tent in Rome, ask Qaddafi's buddy - Berlusco.
P.S. No, margaret, we will not stop printing those extra billions of green ones. Green fiscal policy is environmentally correct when China continues to artificially undervalue its yuan least one third.
[two can play this game]
And as for a future of euro and eurozone, let's return to the subject a year from now, OK? :-)
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WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
An old MIG-23 in the morning was "SU".
As in 'Soviet Union'? :-)
See, Alice, what's a Sukhoy in the morning, may become a Mirage by noon and a MiG by the evening. :-)
[although not a Raptor by midnight]
Remeber that military installation our F-117s hit in Baghdad during the first (nightly) airstrike?
Pretty soon Saddam's "Comical Ali" converted it to 'baby formula' factory. :-)))
Btw. do you recall Qaddafi's daughter/stepdaughter/adopted daughter allegedly killed during American retaliatory airstrike?
It took quite long time to emerge that the mythical 'Hala' never existed.
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AiW: "Lenin and Stalin were only two of our rulers who ever managed to out-wit Britain."
By Stalin and Lenin you mean Soso and the grandson of Srul Blank, right?
Now, please remind me what was the last name of Lenin's and Stalin's cook? And whose grandpa was he? :-)))
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Re #86 Operation el Dorado Canyon:
"For the Libyan raid, the United States was denied overflight rights by France, Spain and Italy as well as the use of European continental bases, forcing the Air Force portion of the operation to be flown around France, Spain and through the Straits of Gibraltar, adding 1,300 miles (2,100 km) each way and requiring multiple aerial refuelings." (Wikipedia)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW SOON THEY FORGET!
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Alice re Tomahawks:
this clip is just for you.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/19/von.libyan.airstrikes.cnn?hpt=T1
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Europe has shown solidarity by not only demanding Gaddafi to abide by international law, but has now used force to make him do so. Some European nations feel that military action is too risky, but what else can the U.K., France and others do? Gaddafi is not going to stop using his military machine until he is forced to. He has been accused of mass murder in 1986 by destroying a Pan American aircraft over Scotland, and he has used Libya as a training ground for terrorists. He intended on building nuclear weapons until he was forced to stop. With this said, the world has had enough of him, and it would seem that the Libyan people feel the same.
I think the United States, its allies in Europe, and the Arab world are doing the right thing. Gaddafi is obviously not of sound mind, and he has a rap sheet a mile long. Enough is enough, and it is time for him to go. Hopefully the next regime in Libya will be more democratic, and not be a one man rule as Gaddafi seems to have been..
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#76. At 00:24am on 20 Mar 2011, margaret howard wrote:
"Getting into a rut.
As for the rest of your observations look at a map to see what the countries which America and her 'allies' claim to liberate these days all have in common - OIL."
No doubting the 'rut' You're stuck in Margaret: Blind prejudice & unfounded illogicality where the US & UK are concerned.
'OIL' is one common denominator for nations attacked/invaded by the 2.
However, also in common is that it would be far easier for both to
have continued/done 'peaceful' trade deals with the Dictatorial regimes for Oil & a lot less expensive.
Another common factor is a plethora of U.N. Security Council Resolutions calling on those Nations' dictators to refrain from killing their own peoples.
Other factors present in all 3 aggressed nations:
Humanitarian instincts must also play a part: E.g. Even though 11th Sept.'01 was the primary motivation for intervention in Afghanistan at least a part of the additional reasoning was the loathsome Taliban regime's cruel victimisation of its people.
Popular unrest/uprisings by significant portions of their own peoples with calls for International intervention to assist them.
Some elements of the regimes supporting/exporting Fundamentalist 'terrorism'.
The 'political' likelihood of each becoming a so-called 'failed-State'.
An unending flow of asylum-seekers/economic migrants from all 3 States.
So, whilst there's no doubt 'oil' will have played a part in the deliberations of the 'west', what explains 'Oil-rich' Mid-East nations that have supported/joined the U.N. backed agggression?
Perhaps the common factor there is self-preservation of their own Leadership/regimes, and in RealPolitik terms that would seem as good a reason as 'oil' for those rulers.
Then there's the Security Council abstainers:
Russia has so much of its own 'oil' supplies and enough internal issues with Islamic peoples it surely thought involvement not in its political-economic-social interest.
China is geographically isolated from the region and has so many 'Oil' trade deals with Oil producing nations it surely sees economic benefit in remaining outside the conflicts.
Brazil? Well, for all the bombast about it being one of the 'new' powers economically it has so many internal political-social-judicial-military & economic problems it surely couldn't afford to upset the neighbours who supply portions of its 'oil' & dislike the USA/'west'.
Germany is the interesting 'EU' case: It is only half-heartedly backing the Afghanistan campaign & actively opposed intervention in Iraq & now Libya.
Schroeder & now Merkel taking the high political moral ground? Possibly. More likely though, Germany's hegemony within (much enhanced post-Banking & EUro crises) the EU gives its Leadership an opportunity to grandstand as the odd-one-out (though Merkel has now conceded Germany's Military will have to take up some of the gaps in Afghanistan whilst the Libyan affair continues). Whatever the olutcome of the Libyan campaign Germany's leadership can step-in to make the trade deals that will ensure it continues to build its economic power-base with 'democracies' & 'dictaorships' (Germany's Trade Pacts with extreme regimes is something You seem to have overlooked in Your applause of their 'principled' abstention!).
So, 'Oil' the reason for "..America and her 'allies' claim to liberate these days.." is just another poorly researched, substantially factually inaccurate, biased allegation against 'english-speaking peoples' by the fragrant one!
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#92. At 08:58am on 20 Mar 2011, cool_brush_work
CBW did you not notice the BBC reports that the RAF jets probably took off from Scotland, thereby the MH does not mention England but rather UK, she is so predictably biased in her posts. Her one reasonable post in this thread has now meant the rest of her posts revert to form.
Amongst the reasons the EU, if it had the guts and gumption, should be involved in this action is the migration from North Africa into the EU. The African Union, often dictators themselves, love migration as it means they are absolved from sorting their own problems out and can build plusher palaces for their families. Therefore it has been left to the UK and France plus a token effort from a few other EU members to take the necessary action. I think your comments about Germany doing nothing and waiting in the wings to snap up trade deals just about sums up the EU, not fit for purpose. As for the Libyan state and opposition I really don't trust either.
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MH..no offense..has never met a "common wisdom" factoid or lying statistic that she doesn't find convenient to use in her arguments.
Also, her high and mighty principles let her judge peoples under hugely repressive regimes (terrorizing, victimizing) whenever she wants to cast doubt on someone elses opinions or observations.
Example...every argument in support of her warmly received EU "comrades" have been hugely (if you look closely) erroneously and angrily given in support of odiously "principled" regimes (France, Germany?)
Her love of the EU is like the relatives she must defend or die trying. Or she is a fanatical "fan" like the German man who stabbed Monica Seles in "support" of Steffi Graff.
These observations of mine, Ms. Howard, are only rather obviously truthful insights into your comment writing. You are just more educated than others of your more cynical cohorts (QOT et al) oops sorreh QOT:(
Web Alice does do a much better job of explaining her views and Nik's comments are at least without rancor.
SOO Sorrehh.. (as Bette Davis would say--after she had dropped you with one well placed comeback response)
"Moralize" all you want..its your right as as a proud fascist sending innocents off to fight your battles such as Jean Brodie did in "her prime" :)))
Ooooh, that felt nice:)
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Where are the video footages of the destruction of the 1st Phase of the UN sponsored coalition? The Arab League voted for it, UN Security Council Resolution 1973 ok’d it, subsequently, the pilots obeyed their orders and bombed the targets. Show us the results of coalition bombing from its side.
When a major part of the world can vote for destruction of the despot Gaddafi's assets in an open vote, why don’t those who bombed show us what they bombed? If they can vote for a slugfest openly, it becomes a public slugfest. I want to see the results of what this fuss is all about.
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#76
margarethoward;
"Just who are they and who armed them?"
Well, given that both sides are using MIGs and Sukhois,, AK-47's, clapped out old T-xx tanks, BMP-1 apc's, RPG-7, katyushas, and Soviet-era atillery,AAA and AA missiles, I reckon its pretty damn obvious who armed them dont you?
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And Demothreat has recently avoided overly emotionalized statements..in lately trying a new approach.
I guess one has to live in the middle--not at the extremes of left and right--
to make sense of this world.
You remind me of a friend who rationalized his Old prejudices against African Americans because they did not follow his "oh so righteous Left principles"--when the African Americans had gotten the capitalistic Rights they had so long asked to have--as others do have.
Racism and Prejudices can take many guises ...who knew?
He (the friend) is an ex friend of mine because I got sick of his victim mentality rants. He was famous for breaking laws he expected the politicians/leaders to obey...
One day two years ago I told him to stay away from me because my job--at work--was stressful and I did not need to listen to His stressed out misinformational rants.
Guess what? I'm stressed out again fully at work, because of my own rather sociopathically opportunistic boss..So off to the curb go the lies of my victimized ranting friends and acquaintances...
One can only take so much of others Misinformationally-based comments and opinions..before becoming rude ..too.
Sorreh, Ms Howard.
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93. At 09:53am on 20 Mar 2011, Buzet23 wrote:
"..Her one reasonable post in this thread has now meant the rest of her posts revert to form..."
I agree: She is incorrigible, but has now become so obvious in her antipathy to all things British/American her jottings are almost a parody of the wronged 'colonial native'. Although in MH's case probably more of an 'unrequited' affair-of-the-heart, i.e. Margaret tried for the American dream & got duped into East Anglia!
TeeHeeee!
"..I think your comments about Germany doing nothing and waiting in the wings to snap up trade deals just about sums up the EU, not fit for purpose. As for the Libyan state and opposition I really don't trust either."
Can't say I trust any nation more than another: I'm fairly sure PM Cameron has his 'command & control' fever partially contained, but UK PMs do seem to enjoy giving gung-ho orders... Maybe something in the water at No.10.!?
Personally, I would rather the UK had stayed well out of the Libyan affair. UK has enough on its military-foreign plate. Same with the EU: Though this crisis has exposed yet again the paucity of genuine 'leadership' at Brussels - - honestly, what a shower of 2nd-raters - - not a Statesman-like contender amongst 770+ MEPS, ridiculous Commissioners & a Foreign Service that costs Billions & hasn't uttered a single credible sentence the whole time!
It seems to me it is far from clear as to whether or not the Libyan 'uprising' has any semblance of an interest in advancing 'democracy'. I remain to be convinced any of the new Mid-East/North Africa regimes have any purpose other than to have a change of fingers-in-the-pie at the top.
Ideas of one-man one vote, female equality, regular elections, an unshackled media...
Think that is all a long way off: In that sense of the 'west' not really backing a 'liberalisation' of those Nations I find some ground in common with fragrant Margaret. Though as we've mentioned MH just cannot stop her prejudicial bile over-riding the factual reality & therefore loses her argument almost before it has begun.
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75. At 00:05am on 20 Mar 2011, Manneken wrote:
#45
"..The interesting point is that, when asked about these matters, europeans clearly mention foreign and defense policy as THE area to become more integrated..."
That is soooooo funny, it's almost worth a post on YouTube or something like it!
As the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq & now Libyan military ventures amply demonstrate the Continental EUropean Armed Forces are already totally integrated.
They have one objective in any and all eventualities: TO STAY IN THEIR BOMB-PROOF, CENTRALLY HEATED TRENCHES & IGNORE ANY IDEA OF SHEDDING SWEAT NEVER MIND BLOOD ON BEHALF OF 'NATO'!
The day the UK places its 'defence' reliance on the neighbours across the Channel is the day the British Isles will have surrendered any sense of being a free Nation.
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91 David Gussie writes:
"He has been accused of mass murder in 1986 by destroying a Pan American aircraft over Scotland, and he has used Libya as a training ground for terrorists."
--------------------------------
You're quite right. But this is a report in our press from only last year when the world seemed content to take his money and forgive and forget:
THE SUNDAY TIMES JUNE 13, 2010:
"THE Libyan leader Muammar Gadaffi is to pay up to £2 billion to victims of Irish terrorism for his role in supplying shiploads of explosives to the IRA.
About £800m will go directly to victims of the violence. First in line will be the 147 families of those caught in atrocities in which Semtex, the plastic explosive supplied by Libya, was used.
A trade deal between Britain and Libya is also expected to be part of the historic settlement. Gadaffi is seeking to present the payment as a goodwill gesture and is not expected to admit liability.
The negotiations were given new impetus last September when The Sunday Times revealed that Gordon Brown was refusing to put Britain’s diplomatic muscle behind the victims’ claim against Libya for fear of harming trade.
A source close to the talks said: “Gadaffi can now make a major humanitarian gesture which will end the legal actions and build diplomatic and business relations with the UK.”
An additional £314m could be added if the US government agrees to co-operate. This money is left over from an earlier $1.5 billion compensation package for American victims of Libyan-sponsored terrorism, including the Lockerbie bombing. Families received more than £5m each and it is suggested that similar amounts can be paid to American victims of IRA terrorism, or Irish-born casualties who moved to America.
Politicians will be briefed on Wednesday about progress in the talks. A Foreign Office spokeswoman said: “We believe success can be achieved through the direct contacts which we have helped establish between the campaign and the Libyan authorities.”
Funny how things can change in just one year!
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So they did it finally... sounds like a comedy. Opening a war front right at the steps of Europe. Against whom? Against Ghadaffi who was opening deals to export gas to Italy becoming the second largest exporter to Europe after Russia (no wonder among the French and the British it was also Norway that did not want that and they called for action!). What does that mean? Complicated stuff. Sarkozy, no matter what his dealings with Russia have been the last 3 years, proved that finally he is on the side of the US and that he will even send the French armies to protect basically US interests. What France will gain out of all that? A pie of the ressources? What Britain will gain out of all that? As far as I know BP was enterring Libya hugely, now all that is unclear.
Very very complicated situation. One thing is for sure:
The real US (and friends) game is to isolate Libya. For the same reason Americans are not allowed to drill their own ressources just next door an they have to import a large part of their needs from far away regions (mainly south Latin America), for the same reasons Europeans are not allowed to import large quantities from their neighbours, that should be their natural partners.
Let us see how all the above will be verified in action. I sincerely do not see in near future any huge investments in Libya in relation to the real potential. Europeans will keep bying under the petrodollar and so will the Chinese (for them it is anyway a matter of survival with all that dollar-rich economy of theirs... they want to get rid of their dollars and buy real value...).
No matter the stance of Ghadafi, thisis a shameful attack, a warfront of the (not so European) bankers. Any European that supports such attacks is of the same moral and intellectual level as this sad league of bankoinvestors playing between New York, London & Zurich (Paris being the poor relative in there...).
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99. At 10:59am on 20 Mar 2011, cool_brush_work wrote:
"""The day the UK places its 'defence' reliance on the neighbours across the Channel is the day the British Isles will have surrendered any sense of being a free Nation."""
Myself like millions of other Europeans, firmly are huge supporters of British independence and sense of a free nation. Going out will be a blessing for the rest of Europe which apparently will gently ask Britain to retire its colonial armies from Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar and stick to playing the big power in other parts of the world unrelated to Europe.
It will be for the best of both sides. However as you see in reality it is British geopolitics that instruct it to remain and mingle in the European affairs. And it usually ends up in such nasty results like the shameful attacks against Serbians in the Yugoslav wars and the shameful current attacks against Libya. In the first case the British had the shameful cooperation of the Germans (main instigators of the Yugoslav wars), now they are in collaboration with the shameful French leadership of Sarkozy that decided to open a warfront at the doorsteps of Europe.
Sarko showed his real positioning: the Atlantic side. This attack against Libya is NOT a European attack. It is a Francobritish attack. It is an attack of the Atlantic side against Libya. The rest of Europe sits and watches without any possibility of doing anything afterall, we are all sitting if front of already made action.
De Gaul must be turning in his grave watching all that.
PS: It is funny how easily Francobritish send their forces to defend a bunch of rebels when they do nothing (and even support actually) the aggression of Turkey against Greece (EU space) at a region that there is plenty of oil (Aegean).
So you think its all about the oil? If you think its all about ressoures, I think you are blatantly mistaken. Its all about ressources + traderoutes and the second being more important. The Libya ressources will eventually be exploited but ONLY via specific traderoutes. The current war is all about the latter.
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#93 - Buzet23
"CBW did you not notice the BBC reports that the RAF jets probably took off from Scotland . . ."
Actually we now know they took of from East Anglia - home, I am told, to a lot of Scottish refugees.
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29. At 3:19pm on 18 Mar 2011, cool_brush_work wrote:
"""25. At 2:33pm on 18 Mar 2011, PickledPete wrote:
"..Given the British toll in Afghanistan it would be nice to see some other EU nations throwing their hats into the ring on this one though..."
Don't hold Your breath, or, in this case leave Your parachute of cynacism behind!
Any idea that the Air Forces of Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Greece etc. the alleged NATO 'Allies' will be put in 'harms way' is a non-starter: There isn't a formation they can't fly in reverse gear!"""
You are totally out CBW. Why on earth would air forces of Greece, Belgium or Portugal want to participate in this farce? What are their interests in all that shameful game? You are really losing it.
As for the reverse gears, I only need to remember the shameful British expendition in forcefully allied Greece (after British murdering president Metaxas) where they had sent a force of nearly 60,000 troops to rule ahead of 30,000 Greek reserves and who managed to put all their gears in reverse and run back at full speed in front o 12,000 Germans ridigin their boat-motorbikes.... (all that in mountainous Greece, best soil for defense...)...
... all that at the same time a first 120,000 Greek had defensed successfully a 350,000 strong Italian one (and then around 250,000 Greeks were chasing 550,000 Italians all around near-central Albania...)... and when 7,000 Greeks had successfully defended against 45,000 Nazis in the Fortress Battle... ... yes, the same time when 60,000 British (obstructing the way of the last 30,000 Greek reserves) mingled and kept retreating in front of the pathetically small Nazi force.
HISTORY teaches one lesson: never follow the "perfidious" in war action. You are their ally, they destroy you. Better be on the other side.
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OMG, after MH we now have the nik nik sniping from the shadows of bankrupt Greece and blaming everything on the perfidious ones, but then I forgot, according to nik nik the Greeks are the master race that should be controlling the known universe, that is if the British had allowed them to be, rofl so many times it hurts.
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#102 - Nik
"Going out will be a blessing for the rest of Europe which apparently will gently ask Britain to retire its colonial armies from Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar . . ."
The Cyprus bases are "UK sovereign base areas of Dhekelia and Akrotiri" and British sovereign territory, there are no British military bases in Malta and Gibraltar remains British with the democratic consent of a large majority of the people.
Nik, you really need to get yourself under control. If we had nothing better to do, we could all trawl back through colonial history and find some sort of reason for blaming someone other than ourselves, but get real - Cyprus has everything to do with intransigence of Greeks and Turks and absolutely nothing to do with Libya. For so long as you are looking to the rest of us to bail out a failed economy, you might be well advised to stop lying to and about your benefactors.
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75 manneken writes:
"..The interesting point is that, when asked about these matters, europeans clearly mention foreign and defense policy as THE area to become more integrated..."
I think you're right, united we stand .......
Look what happens when individual EU countries like Britain try to go it alone these days as in our most recent debacle in Basra and Helmand province when the Americans had to step in to save our bacon. The humilition of it.
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106 threnodio writes:
"The Cyprus bases are "UK sovereign base areas of Dhekelia and Akrotiri" and British sovereign territory, ..."
----------------------------
Wonder how many pieces of 'sovereign territory' Cyprus owns in Britain?
(Although there is a fish and chip shop in our town owned by a Cypriot family - but they bought it legitimately I believe.)
-----------------------
"....and Gibraltar remains British with the democratic consent of a large majority of the people...
...who were settled there artificially to suit the empire - just like the protestants in Ulster. Just shows the trouble our constant interference in the past is still causing us today, yet we go on telling other countries how to run their affairs.
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104. At 12:02pm on 20 Mar 2011, Nik wrote:
'Don't hold Your breath, or, in this case leave Your parachute of cynacism behind!
Any idea that the Air Forces of Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Greece etc. the alleged NATO 'Allies' will be put in 'harms way' is a non-starter: There isn't a formation they can't fly in reverse gear!"""
You are totally out CBW. Why on earth would air forces of Greece, Belgium or Portugal want to participate in this farce? What are their interests in all that shameful game? You are really losing it.
Not for the first time You misinterpret & therefore write completely from a false premise (no wonder You & the fragrant Margaret are so often attuned to each other's limited understanding of affairs!).
I don't support the Libyan campaign by UK, France, US, etc. Have opposed it from the start: IMO it is not in the interests of G.B. to participate in this military intervention.
However, one of my major reasons is indeed my absolute distrust & disregard for most of the present EUropean NATO membership: I do not believe continental EUrope has the stomach for any sort of bloodshed that involves their Armed forces (see my previous contributions).
As for Your, "..I only need to remember the shameful British expendition in forcefully allied Greece (after British murdering president Metaxas) where they had sent a force of nearly 60,000 troops to rule ahead of 30,000 Greek reserves and who managed to put all their gears in reverse and run back at full speed in front o 12,000 Germans ridigin their boat-motorbikes.... (all that in mountainous Greece, best soil for defense...)..."
Rewriting & revising History to suit Your own twisted marxist-leninist agenda is Your speciality.
We've debated these issues many times: You've yet to come up with any factual reality on almost any of it... the 'conspiracies' & 'evidence' never add-up to anything even bordering on realistsic (e.g. Your Churchill as big mass murderer as Hitler & Stalin, Your 9/11 a CIA Plot, Your Metaxas murdered by Brit agents, Your fabled UK Navy potentially battling Chinese over Gibraltar (!?), & as for Your a November-17 Greek terrorist told You aged 10!!!!!
It's all just an over-sensitive imagination allied to a politically inept/sheltered view of how the World turns.
You keep writing about 'links' & then tell us we've to dig deeper, but the result is always the same - - You made it up or exaggerated beyond understanding: i.e. Yes, of course British & Commonwealth forces retreated from Crete/Greece... it was a defeat by incredibly brave & tactically superior Nazi German Armed Forces.. that's a 'reverse gear', BUT, nothing to do with NATO in the 21st Century!.
Sorry, but it's all very largely in Your mind and I just will not indulge You anymore in such matters.
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Well, given that both sides are using MIGs and Sukhois,, AK-47's, clapped out old T-xx tanks, BMP-1 apc's, RPG-7, katyushas, and Soviet-era atillery,AAA and AA missiles, I reckon its pretty damn obvious who armed them dont you?
I haven't seen our tanks yet. The hand those eh rockets are not ours.
MIGs have defected as we know :o))))) in the beg., to Malta.
AK-s all over the world are Chinese and Bulgarian and who only not makes them, we never registered the int'l patent rights :o)))))
What is there ours to talk about is C-200 anti air raid system which is being bombed now. Which is no good against small quick sneaky things like quick small planes, and it is no good in intercepting tomohawks (chaps in Russian blogs say. They also say its a maintenance nightmare to operate it in sand and desert conditions, they don't imagine how Libyans would :o))
But it is good for big substantial things like heavy planes and very good for ships, of which there is no lack of nearby Libya currently. Normal C-200 would have been employed 2 days ago. Bloggers think Kaddafi plain has no nerve and guts to hit American ships. He plans to be a victim, does not want a quick and immediate end.
There is also an idea that America plain gave Sarkozy chance to drive and rule a little bit :o))))))), at which he eagerly grabbed.
For the attack goes in reverse to normal an order, you never fly planes until ground anti air raid systems are destroyed, and in this case first France cruised around for a day (having denied they lost one Mirage. that is, one more Mirage :o), then fire was opened from US ships at anti air-raid systems. Clearly US didn't want to be seen in Libya first, gave Sarkozy the honour.
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#107. At 12:26pm on 20 Mar 2011, margaret howard wrote:
"75 manneken writes:
"..The interesting point is that, when asked about these matters, europeans clearly mention foreign and defense policy as THE area to become more integrated..."
I think you're right, united we stand ......"
Do you not remember another similar proverb, the bigger you are the harder you fall!
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103 threnodio writes:
"Actually we now know they took of from East Anglia - home, I am told, to a lot of Scottish refugees."
Don't know about that but according to today's Sunday Times "... East Anglia - the region with the happiest people in Britain."
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107. At 12:26pm on 20 Mar 2011, margaret howard wrote:
And,
108. At 12:39pm on 20 Mar 2011, margaret howard wrote:
Both scurrilous, factually inaccurate on every point, and yet more evidence if it were needeed of an unbalanced mind!
There is no doubt UK Armed forces had a very hard struggle to keep on top of things in their tactical roles in Southern Iraq & Helmand Province, Afghanistan: That said, it was the logistics of too few 'boots-on-the-ground' (& possibly inadequate Weaponry). Nothing at all to do with ineffectiveness: On the contrary the UK Armed Forces performed admirably despite their supposed NATO allies - - France, Germany, BeNeLux, Italy, Spain, Denmark - - all contributing entirely 'non-combatant forces' (& in the case of France refusing to even allow its Helicopters to fly-in and evacuate british woulded!).
The absolutely valid reason for the U.S. Armed Forces being in a position to do more was & is numbers of troops & logistics available.
No 'humiliation' at all: More like a superb achievement for HM Armed Forces in the most difficult of front-line combat circumstances since the Falklands campaign.
Your invective is misplaced and grossly insulting to those units from the East Anglian regiment: You'd be wise to keep such opinons under wraps whenever You pluck-up courage to venture to walk in Your high street! MH being so 'afraid to go out at night' - - due to local yobs - - my, my, Margaret deriding serving Armed Forces personnel certainly puts You in the frame for hypocite of the year!
As for:
"..Cypriot" family running a fish & chip shop is the ludicrous analogy to British forces' bases in Cyprus!
Have You no idea how absurd Your writing becomes when that's the level to which You stoop?
As for "..protestants" in Ulster!
What is Your point? Are You really suggesting the 950,000+ Northern Irish 'protestant' community should be returned to G.B.?
Afterall, if we apply that stricture to protestants, Gibraltarians & the like Margaret are You really lending support to the repatriation of 'immigrant' communities now residing in Britain!?
For God's sake, such is Your vile abuse of the British/English, are You utterly incapable of seeing the wider picture on any issue???
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And either way - we don't accept claims on Kaddafi's pilots performance.
They were all taught by Ukraine - don't you see - began their action career from defecting :o)))))
Russia has in Libya only one graduate, given the peculiarities of the moment and using the bedoin wisdom about usefullness of journalism in action :o) - I will with-hold his name until better times :o))))
But his alma mater, putting the moral side of it away for a while, can be rightly proud of him, as the re-gain of territories lost (at one time - nearly all territories lost I would say :o))))) all but the capital) - was quick and effective.
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#113. At 1:33pm on 20 Mar 2011, cool_brush_work
"As for "..protestants" in Ulster!
What is Your point? Are You really suggesting the 950,000+ Northern Irish 'protestant' community should be returned to G.B.?
Afterall, if we apply that stricture to protestants, Gibraltarians & the like Margaret are You really lending support to the repatriation of 'immigrant' communities now residing in Britain!?"
Those being repatriated would of course include Scots and since many protestants in Ulster came originally from Scotland they would need to be returned there to join a repatriated MH. Then the people of East Anglia would be even happier without a certain Scottish immigrant.
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CORECTION to my #113
Apologies:
Netherlands & Denmark have provided frontline combat troops in Afghanistan, but in their case the very limited numbers have meant increased pressure on the UK, US, Canadian & ANZAC forces.
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115. At 2:07pm on 20 Mar 2011, Buzet23 wrote:
"..Those being repatriated would of course include Scots and since many protestants in Ulster came originally from Scotland they would need to be returned there to join a repatriated MH. Then the people of East Anglia would be even happier without a certain Scottish immigrant."
Very true!
All the same the complete blanking of factual reality by the fragrant lady is very worrying: Such is her animosity toward Britons she hints at returning those in Cyprus 6 Gibralatar without even grasping the tiniest implication of just how much of a nod toward far-right extremist bigotry she prsents!
Truly astonishing! She does wear her prejudices in open sight, but I had thought she was on the 'left'/'liberal' side of such matters. No one who writes, "...who were settled there artificially to suit the empire - just like the protestants in Ulster. Just shows the trouble our constant interference in the past is still causing us today,.." can surely be unaware of where such views may lead!?
Usually I dismiss Margaret's diatribes and give back what she dishes out. On this occasion, personally, I find this outburst from MH at #108 abhorrent in its lack of foresight and disregard for the Humanitarian aspect such upheaval might bring about.
And all to throw another cheap low-blow at the British/English past (nelgecting as You say to realise the implications for Scotland!).
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101 Nic writes:
"No matter the stance of Ghadafi, thisis a shameful attack, a warfront of the (not so European) bankers. Any European that supports such attacks is of the same moral and intellectual level as this sad league of bankoinvestors playing between New York, London & Zurich (Paris being the poor relative in there."
-----------------------------------
There are many others who agree with you. On Mark Mardell's American blog today you can read the following contribution:
5. At 3:05pm on 20 Mar 2011, ScottNYC wrote:
We should have never joined this military action. This serves British interests, not ours. They're the ones who sold weapons to Gaddafy, who sucked up to him, who released a mass murderer and then lied about the reasons. I really can't believe Obama got suckered into this. I thought he understood the British lie machine better than this.
The British media coverage of this "crisis" so far has been laughable, as every story is about some poor Brit who's trapped and can't get home. Well boo hoo hoo for them. Maybe they should have picked another dictator to work for and prop up.
At the very least, we should seize BP property in Libya as payback since it was they, working hand in glove with the British government, who gave so much aid and succor to this thug over the years."
You'll find many others in a similar vein. They make very interesting reading.
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#118
margarethoward;
"Nostrono wrote:
5. ScottNYC
Your opinion would seem to be an absolute minority one here, all political tendencies combined."
Absolute minority..of one...no wonder you associate with him. Keep trying mags.
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Hi Nik,
Welcome back!!!!
And sorry to WEBALICE if I involve you in any of MY rants.
Tomorrow is my 53 birthday....one would think I'd be in a decent mood.
Wearing my false teeth to a bday dinner today...but tomorrow
Back to work!!!
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5. At 3:05pm on 20 Mar 2011, ScottNYC wrote:
Hilarious stuff! Thanks for the quote Margaret, it's good to know You do at least retain some semblace of a sense of humour.
"..This serves British interests, not ours. They're the ones who sold weapons to Gaddafy,.."
That would be the 'interest' whereby UK Armed Forces & others from Europe are possibly being attacked by those weapons?
Is that the equivalent of the US supplying weapons to Israel for the attack on Gaza or was that an entirely noble, humanitarian exercise!?
"..I really can't believe Obama got suckered into this. I thought he understood the British lie machine better than this..."
LOL! One wonders if the sad sap ever heard of the US Intelligence/CIA & WMD fiasco re Iraq!?
"..At the very least, we should seize BP property in Libya as payback since it was they, working hand in glove with the British government,.."
Ah, so not above wanting to share in the 'spoils-of-war'! Honestly the bloke's a laugh-a-line.
My only worry for his sensibilities is if we mention 'Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld & Halliburton' will he get all gooey-eyed & complain to the UN Britain's not playing fair!?
And there I am most times defending Yanks as not being really as dumb as some would make out!
GUFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.
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David,
Happy coming birthday by all means! Be healthy, wealthy and wise.
Кisses and embraces Alice
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY Stevenson!
You're only as old as the woman/man/both you're holding!
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and self-correction; Kadaffi seems not to have Soviet C-200 after all.
Muamar Ivanoich is harmless.
Well, he has rocket systems SA-5 and SA-6 (old Sov.make), that is, he had them :o))))))), as all are busy last day with hand-picking exactly them :o))))0 (old habits die hard).
Read and opinion that he will be beaten, beaten but not finished, as Israel keeping contacts with several key countries in the nearby world has heard they are morally ready to take anti-Western stand; in this situation Muamar Ivanovich becomes a rare sunshine :o))) and quite worthy of keeping.
Also read an ipinion that this is all part of a bigger plan de-fragmenting troublesome quarters in that region.
Actually, read many ideas one weirder than another we'll see ;o)))))0
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Re my #121
Apparently the Moderation process is so intrusive now that the expression 'poor sap' has attracted additional thought by those who sit in judgement on our little jottings!
If only in my working life I had a job where the word 'sap' meant I earnt a crust!
The man or woman doing the adjudicating probably has a degree: Imagine that! 'poor sap' doesn't quite do it justice, does it!?
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David,
an exclusive birthday-present for you; a Russian crocodile sings in Japanese. (Cartoon of my childhood)
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Well. Here he, actually, sings with English sub-titles; this might be better :o))))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKQU79YJ3dQ&NR=1
This is a multi-faceted crocodile, according to youtube he sings many languages ;o))))
Happy birthday, David.
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Happy birthday David
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iufE9ReDbuY
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Lovely headline in today's Mail 0n Sunday:
"Why did Prince Andrew visit Gaddafi in Libya with ‘shady’ Tory?"
The year was 2008. So then he was considered to be worthy of a visit by a member of the royal family and today we bomb him because he is a ruthless tyrant. How things change in 3 years. Or as my namesake Margaret would say: "It's a funny old world."
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Thank you CBW, WebAlice, QOT and all who wish me happy birthday!
:))))
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