Arab Awakening: Europe's unclean hands
Last year I caught a Roman Circus. The ringmaster was Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. He had brought with him to the Eternal City a troupe of Berber riders, charging horses and flashing lances.
Whilst in town he decided on some lecturing. A modelling agency was hired to find several young women to listen to the Libyan leader. They were paid a handful of euros to sit at his feet. "Women," he told them, "are more respected in Libya than in the West". "Islam," he went on, "should be the religion of the whole of Europe".
Later at a dinner Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi had told his guest: "if you behave we'll sing you a song".
The reason for all of this chumminess was to celebrate a friendship accord that had been signed between Italy and Libya in 2008. The old armourer of the IRA and other causes had come in from the cold. Italy in particular had fallen over itself to get Libyan money into Italian companies.
There was another key element to this new relationship. Libya had been used by thousands of Africans as the stepping-off point for the journey into Europe via Malta and, in particular, Italy. Gaddafi had agreed to stem the flow and to take back those migrants that reached Italian islands.
The UK, too, invested in the "new Gaddafi". In 2004 Tony Blair met with him and spoke of a "new relationship". Later, once diplomatic relations had been restored, the UK agreed to export arms to Tripoli.
What was ignored in all of this was that Gaddafi was a ruthless leader who crushed dissent and had been in power for almost 40 years.
The same was true elsewhere. Europe supped with North Africa's autocratic leaders. France has discovered that its Foreign Minister Michele Alliot-Marie recently flew on a jet owned by a close associate to the Tunisian ex-President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali. Over Christmas the French Prime Minister, Francois Fillon, had enjoyed Hosni Mubarak's hospitality in Egypt. The emirs, sheikhs and kings were feted on their trips to London and Paris. We needed their oil and welcomed their shopping. They were even tapped up to buy football clubs.
Most crucially of all they were seen as providing security for the West's oil needs and as a bulwark against Islamist extremism.
What Europe and the West did not do, until very recently, was to side with human rights and the aspirations of the people.
Condescendingly the West bought into the myth of the Arab street, that the people of North Africa and the Middle East were somehow unfit for democracy. They occasionally raised a fist or two after Friday prayers, but were essentially docile. This, too, was the message conveyed by their leaders when they dined at Western tables.
What recent events have shown, however, is that a younger generation in the Middle East and North Africa share many of the dreams of young people everywhere. They want jobs, freedom and respect.
Europe has come to their side late - and so in the present turmoil must walk humbly. Like the US, it has struggled to find a consistent voice in this crisis.
For the moment the policy can be summed up as opposing violence and supporting dialogue. UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said yesterday: "what Colonel Gaddafi should be doing is respecting basic human rights and there is no sign of that in the dreadful response, the horrifying response, of the Libyan authorities to their protests."
The EU's foreign policy chief, Baroness Ashton, was also quick to condemn the violence. Such international voices should not be dismissed. They may well have helped save lives in Bahrain and Egypt.
The Libyan authorities clearly believe these European statements are encouraging the protests. Tripoli has threatened to halt co-operation on illegal migration. One man who might have some influence in the Libyan capital has chosen to stay off the phone. Silvio Berlusconi, who has the closest relationship with Gaddafi of all Europe's leaders, said that he had not wanted to "disturb" the Libyan leader.
Europe is now debating what it can do longer term. There is talk of a grandiose plan for North Africa. A new type of partnership. There is both fear and a sense of opportunity. "Europe must act quickly," said the Italian Foreign Minister, Franco Frattini, "or the 'arc of crisis' will lead to more illegal immigration, terrorism and Islamic radicalisation".
The opportunity is to support reform with investment. There are those who believe that Europe should tilt away from investing in countries to the east, in favour of countries to the south.
It is an ambition fraught with difficulty. How should Europe invest? Not in government, almost certainly. What is the best way to stimulate jobs?
How will such funds be monitored? The EU has a mixed record with its spending. And then there is the question of what Europe's taxpayers can afford. This is a time of austerity and high unemployment across Europe and yet, as the German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said, it is a "historic watershed - nothing will be as it was before". But the case will have to be made to Europe's voters.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~16~RS~)
I'm 
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There is already Free Trade Agreements between the EU/EEA/EFTA and all North African countries except Libya. North African countries are already growing quite strongly, e.g. Algeria 4.0% or Egypt 5.5%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro-Mediterranean_free_trade_area
It would be a mistake to pump more funds into these fast countries economies which could easily overheat. The current policy of free trade is the correct one, encouraging North Africans to remain at home yet still participate in the Western economy and in doing so become more affluent. And it is right that Libya is the only Mediterranean country without a free trade agreement. The West should certainly support the Libyan people against the dictatorship of Colonel Gadaffi, and offer them the carrot of free trade with both North America and Europe as a prize should Libya become a democratic nation-state.
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Somehow this will just end up with us exploiting those people or their resources. I really hope they give us the finger and set up their own companies and infrastructure, so that they can be in complete control of their own destinies.
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When the Berlin wall fell, Europe was obliged to invest in the new eastern democracies and expand the EU. If Arab democracies take hold --they must be helped for our OUR OWN good -- and closer EU ties made a top priority.
They have the oil wealth --which will come in handy !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If you look at what Europe is doing for the countries on its periphery which have problems it is hard to see what they can do for North Africa Gavin! This hardly sets a good tone for "investment".As the economist Shaun Richards reminds us again today.
"The downside is that it reminds everyone that the problems of the peripheral Euro zone have not been solved and on many measures are in fact getting worse. If we look at “rescued” Ireland her ten-year government bond yield is 9.2% whereas unrescued Portugal inspite of all her difficulties has one of 7.57%.
http://t.co/uLG8rHN
It would seem that Europe might be better solving her own problems before setting out to solve other ones.
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Gavin Hewitt.
"..2008. The old armourer of the IRA and other causes had come in from the cold."
long before (Lockerbie) the UK supplied and upgraded naval vessels, and 'we' have always liked selling small stuff like assault and sniper rifles. where's your analysis of UK weapon's exports to Libya??
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#4Huaimek
"Europe cannot afford to be investing in North African countries . European countries need to defend their shores."
You are really helping --leading from behind in THAILAND !!!
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I think we are going to be stuffed soon.
Petrol about £50 a drip soon then.
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#6 jr4412
" -- where's your analysis of UK weapon's exports to Libya??"
Gavin is looking down the barrel of a British sniper rifle on that one !
Arab deaths for British jobs ?
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Foreign policy of the West in the Arab world has been to facilitate business interests. When that is the primary agenda the interest of the people in those countries is not a priority. "Stable" governments, stable for businesses, often means oppression of the people. The West abandoned any moral position long ago and the most recent banking crimes further stripped away any pretense of concern for even their own citizens. The concerns of the West at this time are: who will be bribed, how much will it costs, what will be the profit margins and will the labor pool be cheap?
With such a noble agenda the West remains surprised that the people of these nations may want something different.
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It would be interesting to make a FOI request how many UK Police Officers/soldiers have been working in Libya to train Gadaffi's security forces over the last two years.
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Could the EU's Middle East Peace Envoy spare some time from his directorships to go and try and sort things out?
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I thought if we stuck our noses into how people ran their countries then we were Imperialist?
Should we be on a Crusade for Democracy this week?
Now I am confused...
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All the talk on this forum of emerging Arab democracies is wishful thinking in the extreme.
We in europe cannot hope that a political system which took us several centuries of hard and sometimes bloody effort to establish will suddenly appear as if by magic in the Middle East as a result of the current uprisings.
Especially when the principal body of opinion within the non-secular part of the Arab community is so fundamentally opposed to such a form of government.
There is going to be a real bunfight in the Middle East as various players try to fill the vacuums left as the current collection of dictators and hereditory monarchs are removed from power.
If the bunfight spills over into the West, either through infighting among our own resident Arab populations or through energy shortages caused by regional instability, then things will be 'uncomfortable' for a time.
The most interesting (and mostly undiscussed) issue will be how China, now the second largest consumer of petroleum products in the world, mainly sourced from the Middle East, will react to this threat to its own prosperity and economic power.
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Yes, Gaddafi and Berlusconi are good freinds. According to the International Railway Journal and a number of danish media, Berlusconi commandeered a brand new train of the type IC 4, ordered by the danish state railways (DSB) from italian producer AnsaldoBreda. 92 of these trains should have been delivered in 2003, bus so far less than 30 have materialized. Being hopelessly behind schedule, they apparantly accepted Berlusconis demand to pick a train-set from the production-line and send it to Libya in stead.
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quietoaktree #9.
"Gavin is looking down the barrel of a British sniper rifle on that one !"
at least metaphorically speaking. for real journalists though, the risk is all too real: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Murdered_journalists
"Arab deaths for British jobs ?"
I refer the Rt Hon Gentleman to the answer given below (#10) by ghostofsichuan. ;)
NickPheas #12.
"Could the EU's Middle East Peace Envoy spare some time.."
one look at Mr Blair's diary will reveal that he's fully booked out: hairdresser, tanning salon, meeting with manager at the Vatican Bank, ... :-)
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#4 Huaimek
So what happened , did somebody complain ? I and a few others saw my post .
The moderators are pathetic , laughable !!!
So I quote a joke I read in an Italian newspapers a few years ago and it is deemed offensive , ha ha ha !!!
If European countries meddle in north African affairs and don't keep their noses clean , Europe will become embroiled in revolution as well . What then !!!
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Franco Frattini was one of the worst EU Commissioner’s in history. Mentally incapable of anything other than proposing ‘more Europe’ as the answer to every problem, he is today (see ‘Europe’s huddled masses’ thread) asking for funds from Brussels to fight the consequences of EU Immigration policy that he himself setup when he was the EU Commissioner responsible for that area! Maybe if he had thought ahead he would not be supporting an EU immigration policy that leads so many North Africans to regard Lampedusa as a single easy-to-cross hurdle to any destinations north of the Mediterranean. Those who make mistakes should pay for those mistakes with their own career, and not be demanding more money from Brussels to correct the consequences of the mindless ‘more Europe’ they previously promoted when it was in the interests of their own career.
Franco Frattini is now suggesting that money for Eastern Europe should be diverted to North Africa to create a new ‘Marshal Plan’ for the Arab world. He is being joined in that cry by Spain and other southern European countries because they would benefit the most from the diversion of spending to countries in close proximity to themselves. Frattini’s latest calls for massive EU spending on a ‘Marshall Plan’ for the Arabs is just the latest cavelier disregard of the tax revenue of citizens from other countries which he is happy to waste on expensive and ill-thought through political gestures. Italian voters would do the squeezed tax-payers of other countries a big favour by removing this long-term incompetent from office.
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Before we start to discuss what would happen in the North Africa, democracy or not, it is really worth to turn our attention to the behaviour of our leaders, here in Europe. As Mr Hewitt has justly pointed out. The Berlusconi-Gadaffi circus was a shame. Supporting the dictatorship, for the sake of keeping a steady supply of oil or any other material, is a shame.
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Western nations and pro-democracy governments must firmly announce that they will pursue war crimes when unauthorized use of force, crimes against humanity and human rights abuses in those nations that unleash state terrorism.
The credibility of the Western nations are at state due to double standard policies and dommed to fail unless they come to senses to support the people who demand for democracy and freedom through peaceful means.
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The article is so good but everyone must remember Libyan President'S speech in recently ended Non Align Movement(NAM) summit ; he told NAM leaders that Libya has nuclear technology ;every one thinks will Libya's nuclear technology safe for rest of world at this moment.
you must also see the New York Times article of Nobel Laureate PaulKrugman -"Drought,floods&Food" inwhich he mentioned food crisis also leads to democratic reforms in other countries. Source:(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/07/opinion/07krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman):
"The consequences of this food crisis go far beyond economics. After all, the big question about uprisings against corrupt and oppressive regimes in the Middle East isn’t so much why they’re happening as why they’re happening now. And there’s little question that sky-high food prices have been an important trigger for popular rage"
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V Siva #20.
"Western nations and pro-democracy governments must firmly announce that they will pursue war crimes when unauthorized use of force, crimes against humanity and human rights abuses in those nations that unleash state terrorism."
why only in "..those nations.."? doesn't charity begin at home? isn't it true that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones??
do you believe the UK government can command the moral highground following, for example: "Miliband admits US rendition flights stopped on UK soil"?
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First there should be complete transparency about UK (at least) arms sales and military aid to all other countries. We need to make sure we are not propping up despots and their regimes in the disgraceful way we have done up till now.
The old 'if we didn't sell them arms someone else would' is the drug-dealers argument. I don't think dealers saying 'Get real your honour, if I wasn't selling drugs to children, someone else would' would be that useful in court.
Arms sales can kill several times over - when they are used, but also when they are bought, depriving the poor of development money, when they threaten other countries giving their despots the excuse to buy more, and when the untraceable bribes needed to sell them go to fund criminality and quite possibly terrorism (eg Saudis funding Al Quaeda). And finally when they are used against us - both Saddam and General Galtieri of Argentina were both great arms customers of the UK.
And I wonder if the directors of the UK companies selling sniper rifles would like to wander round Green Square Tripoli this evening to check that their products are not being used?
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14. Potty Harry
Well said!
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We Britons have nothing to be proud of. The British Labour (and Scottish SNP) Government's relationship with Gaddafi has been that of a supine supplicant coward to a deranged thug.
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Re *6, *9, *10 etc.
Think there's a little bit too much of this flogging of the invidious 'west' trade deals etc. with Gaddafi's Libya.
Facts reveal from USA to China, Japan, Russia, Arab & African States, East & West Europe plus the UK all utilised 'trade' deals pre- & post- Gaddafi's supposed 'reform' of his attitude.
Facts reveal UNO 'trade' embargoes were more honoured in the breech by many Nations all through Gaddafi's 40 year reign of brutality.
Facts show Libyan 'oil' available on the 'black market' across the World for the last 4 decades.
It is clear the pan-EUropean UK bashers have once more leapt on the critical band-wagon, but the facts show yet again chucking stones with so many glass-houses around is a pointless exercise in exposing their own Nation's hypocrisy.
No 'west' or 'east' nation comes out of Gaddafi's 40 year survival with any genuine foreign policy political credit.
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Huaimek
Re *17
The MODERATION is established as way beyond a joke: It is at best uninformed knee-jerk dullness by ill-equipped Moderators or at worst very sinister ill-politically biased intent!
Mine, your's and at least 10 other Commentators' contributions were 'referred for further moderation' on January 25th - - NONE HAVE YET BEEN PUBLISHED or REASONS GIVEN FOR THEIR CONTINUED WITHOLDING BY THE MODERATORS - - it is an absolute disgrace that MODERATORS constantly break their own HOUSE RULES by not informing us why our Comments are being witheld!
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Libya, sad to say, is Somalia with oil.
Deeper than religion is the tribe.
Lift the Gadaffi lid, in an artificial nation (thank the Turks from 1540-1911), and all is up for grabs.
When all else fails....back the tribe.
Independence flags are already flying in Benghasi.
Think Yugoslavia after Tito.
And the region supplies the EU with energy.
Perfect storm.
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#23 - Cloud-Cuckoo
How naive can you get? Do you really think that, when export licenses are granted for such transactions that the authorities do not balance the risks against the commercial potential? Have you any idea how simple it is to buy a truckload of untraceable AK47s - cash no questions asked - in parts of the world not too far removed from the region? You really would rather that these people were armed from such sources than supplied in such a way that we know what they have and what they are capable of?
And on the subject of Galtieri, you might be interested in researching the relative effect on the arms industries of France and the UK to having been principle suppliers to the losing and winning sides respectively. I had direct first hand knowledge of that process and, while schadenfreude is not normally my thing, the embarrassment not to mention the large amount of egg spattered all over the faces of many in the French arms industry at the time was a rare and understandable exception to my rule.
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#29
threnodio;
"And on the subject of Galtieri, you might be interested in researching the relative effect on the arms industries of France and the UK to having been principle suppliers to the losing and winning sides respectively."
If the British didnt know that the Argentinians were flying Mirage II's armed with Exocets then the process of stopping the supply of missiles would have been a nightmare and possibly would have cost the war. As it happens, the exact location of every exocet in the world was known, and despite their best efforts, the Argentinians were unable to get any more. So i recall at any rate.
Which proves your "You really would rather that these people were armed from such sources than supplied in such a way that we know what they have and what they are capable of?"
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#30 - champagne_charlie
Yes, you are quite right but it is also interesting that there was one source who was willing to supply but was successfully prevented from doing so. One Muammar Gaddafi as I recall - and before reinstatement to the human race.
Now I wonder where he got those from?
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#31
threnodio;
"Now I wonder where he got those from?"
Probably from the same people who sold Libya fighter/bombers being used against their own people. I'm wracking my brains to remember what planes they use....hmm.....oh yeah...Mirage F1.
I notice the annointed-one makes some comment about British arms sales to Libya in post #9. Quick to jump on the alleged use of British made sniper rifles...NO mention of French made jet bombers. Quel surprise.
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Won't be long now until we see the same protests in europe as people fight to get their own nations back from the corrupt eu, i can't wait.
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#32 CC
---you obviously kept hitting your little brother because your big brother hit you ?
Have you any other explanation for your logic ?
--you are always giving the deeds of others as a justification for your own (behavior) !
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"Poverty, bankers, inflation, totalitarian regime..
- and to October 2017 are still LONG SIX YEARS AND A HALF!
;o((
:o)))))))
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champagne_charlie #32.
"..some comment about British arms sales to Libya in post #9. Quick to jump on the alleged use of British made sniper rifles...NO mention of French made jet bombers. Quel surprise."
well, the Brits don't make "jet bomber"s (don't even have planes to put on their aircraft carriers. LOL), so the Libyans wouldn't be able to buy anyway, n'est pas, mon ami?
(drinking and thinking -- never worked..)
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jr4412
Headline in the Sunday Times, June 18 2008:
"Britain is the world’s biggest arms exporter."
London (Britain) was the world’s biggest arms seller last year, accounting for a third of global arms exports, the Government’s trade promotion organisation said.
UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) said that arms exporters had added £9.7 billion in new business last year, giving them a larger share of global arms exports than the United States.
“As demonstrated by this outstanding export performance, the UK has a first-class defence industry, with some of the world’s most technologically sophisticated companies,” Digby Jones, the Minister for Trade and Investment, said.
---------------------------------------
If this is indeed true and not just the usual exaggeration then it's hypocrisy. It doesn't seem to matter which party is in power. And if we sell these weapons around the world, what do we expect undemocratic and unstable countries to use them for - clay pigeon shooting? Red Arrow type aerobatic displays? Warship games?
As Moliere said on hypocrisy:
One should examine oneself for a very long time before thinking of condemning others.
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margaret howard #37.
agree with both you and Molière. alas, realistically, there's nothing we ('little people') can do, other than absolute refusal to take part, and, ultimately, self-sacrifice. hard choices.
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Yes, cool-brush;
Gazprom sends 5 Aeroflot planes to Livia ? Libya this morning to evacuate own personnel. Means there are many, means we are friends with that man with ? tents? as well o:)
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All men are equal in the sight of God !? I believe that God is in every one of us , if only we will let him be . African nomadic tribesmen , Amazon forest tribesmen and hill tribes of New Guinea are no lesser beings for their simple lives , concerned only for their day to day needs for survival .
In the practical world as we know it , all men/women are not equal .
It is only politicaly correct to say otherwise .
We in so called more advanced civilised nations are too politically correct or appathetic , to take up arms or start a revolution against what we don't like in our countries . What would the British government do it the people started a revolution ?
I believe we are gravely mistaken to believe , that in Yemen , Egypt , Tunisia and Libya ; that the overthrow of dictatorship paves the way for a civilised Democracy as we know it in Europe . In my opinion these people have a long way to go before they can create stable democracy .
I read that Egyptians are educated , but what does that mean ; they have been to university , have a masters degree or Phd ? In Thailand where I live , scores of people have degrees and know next to nothing , Phds are usually bought . It takes more than school and university examinations to educate people .
Sometimes dictatorship , harsh though it may be , is better than an unruly mob , fighting every man for himself . Italy prospered under Mussolini until about 1935 . Today Italy has about 16 political parties , each with diverging agendas ; for better or worse , at least Berlusconi has the strength to hold a government together , pointing in one direction .
Europe needs to watch out for itself ; with the EU dictatorship , political correctness , human rights , a superior belief that with help from us " Good Times Are Just Around The Corner " in north Africa .
European naivety could lead to revolution in Europe too and the overthrow of the EU !
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Huaimek #40.
"I believe that God is in every one of us.."
religious.
"In my opinion these people have a long way to go.."
condescending.
"Europe needs to watch out for itself ; with the EU dictatorship.."
hubristic.
spectacular. not.
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#41 jr4412
Like QOT you are good at sniping at other peoples comments on Gavin's Blog .
I will be interested to read your original comment on the subject . Perhaps like QOT , you don't have any original thoughts regarding the crisis in Arab and north African countries .
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Huaimek #42.
"Like QOT you are good at sniping at other peoples comments on Gavin's Blog ."
never met quietoaktree, however, I suspect we share a certain, hm, lack of illusions?
"Perhaps ... you don't have any original thoughts regarding the crisis in Arab and north African countries ."
{smiles} perhaps not, I shall let you be the judge of that; my comments are on record.
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#37
margarethoward;quietoaktree;jr4412
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,683598,00.html
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5354522,00.html
The research and data behind the articles:
http://www.sipri.org/googlemaps/at_top_20_exp_map.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry
You say we should be careful to criticise others before examining ourselves. I agree. The UK should not be selling arms to these people. Period. But I doubt the French and the Germans or Americans give a stuff about criticism of their far bigger arms export business do you? I wonder how many Dassault execs are wringing their hands in remorse over seeing Libyan pilots using Mirages against their own people? Nor will General Dynamics execs be weeping into their Bud, seeing Abrams tanks on crowd control in Tahrir square, or seeing their F-16's bombing Gaza, or their APC's and Humvee's rolling down towards Pearl Roundabout.
And it seems like the former colonial power, Italy, just like the French over Tunisia, will escape the same (ANY!) criticism from quietoaktree as is dished out on here to the British over Egypt and Bahrain. Who do you think are the biggest beneficiaries of Libyan oil?-Italy 32%, Germany 14% Britain way back on 5%. The colonial legacy is alive in Cairo...but not in Tripoli or Tunis?? London is responsible for its past, but not Paris or Rome?
Do you remember all those posts from Nik, decrying Turkey and bemoaning the military stand-off in the Aegean, including the regular Turkish incursions into Greek airspace? Do you realise that the worlds third largest military exporter,Germany, has Turkey and Greece as its biggest customers!? Germany supplies BOTH sides in a military stand-off between two countries that hate each other. As for the French, their record of selling arms to despotic regimes is hardly anything to write home about - being British and of a certain age you should clearly remember French jets buzzing San Carlos and launching French missiles killing your countrymen.
There are already plenty of people on here willing to demonise Britain, I'll leave that to the regulars. Putting their actions into context against the actions of peers like France, Germany and the United States is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. The fact that it infuriates quietoaktree is an added bonus.
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As the Daily Telegraph pointed out in 2009:
"Firm with links to Labour figures wins huge Libya contracts"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6516875/Firm-with-links-to-Labour-figures-wins-huge-Libya-contracts.html
Makes for very interesting reading at a time like this.
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Or how about this from CNN
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-30/world/russia.libya.arms_1_libya-small-arms-and-light-russia?_s=PM:WORLD
"Russia signed a deal with Libya to provide nearly $2 billion in arms to the North African nation, Russian state media reported Saturday.
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin announced the contract with Libya on Saturday, news agency RIA Novosti reported.
The agency did not have specifics of the 1.3 billion euro ($1.8 billion) deal inked Friday, but reported that Putin said it was "not only for small arms and light weapons."
Rosoboronexport, Russia's government-run arms export agency, previously said it had five military contracts with Libya that included "military equipment for its ground forces and the navy, the modernization of T-72 tanks and spare parts supplies," RIA Novosti reported."
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The Indians are there too.
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/Punj_Lloyd_bags_Rs5904_crore_contracts_in_Libya_-nid-59127.html
"New Delhi: Engineering and construction conglomerate Punj Lloyd Friday said it has bagged three projects in Libya worth $1.2 billion (5,904 crore) for building commercial and residential complexes.
The contracts were awarded to Sembawang Engineers and Constructors - a wholly-owned Punj Lloyd subsidiary in Tripoli, Libya - by the International Investment and Services Co, the company said in a regulatory statement. "
The list of big Chinese contracts is easy to find....everything from railways, motorways to oil.
It is not a Western thing. Everyone has 'unclean hands' not just the West.
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It is simply astonishing how on this Blog it is the UK/British that are the target of so much vitriol re Libya etc.!
Apparently the entire 'west' & 'east' have been trading perrfectly legitimately all through the last 4 to 6 decades of despotic Midddle East rulers, and yet again only the Brits/English were doing evil deeds behind the backs of the virtuous World!
On 2nd thoughts, not "astonishing", just laughably prejudicial tosh & gibberish from all the Blog's 'usual suspects'!
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champagne_charlie #44.
"You say we should be careful to criticise others before examining ourselves. ... Germany supplies BOTH sides in a military stand-off.."
oh, you're perfectly right, and as blefuscu (#47) so neatly points out: "Everyone has 'unclean hands' not just the West."
I don't have a problem criticising warmongers in Germany, the US of A, or wherever; it is just that for the last 26 years or so I've lived/worked/paid taxes in England, and that's why I've kept my comments (on this thread) confined to the UK.
personally, I'd say the fact that we've carved-up Earth into 200-odd nation states, filled with ugly, squabbling, nationalistic rabble, demonstrates our lack of 'fitness' anyhoo. ;)
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Champagne_Charlie
Re *44 & "..you (the fragrant 'MargaretH' etc.) should clearly remember French jets buzzing San Carlos and launching French missiles killing your countrymen..'
The chances of the fragrant female recalling there were poor bally infantry from England, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland, Nepal/Borneo (as well as unfortunate conscript Argies) down in the South Atlantic is almost nil, never mind her accepting they were fellow "countrymen". I'm afraid the lady's prejudicial blind-eye has long been beyond any remedial attention.
It is a fact weapons of all sorts are traded perfectly legally across the entire World: It is also a fact almost all of us for the cause of decent Humanity would wish it weren't so.
That said, the near inescapable fact of a vitriol laden minority of contributions to this Blog is where French, Russian, Czech, German, Chinese, Korean etc. civilians are employed in Weapons & Munitions manufacture that is generally deemed acceptable, but the moment a British Weapon etc. is found to be in use then apparently there is no sin too great to be levelled at 'perfidious' Albion!
The alacrity of some to provide online links to UK weapons trade etc, whilst in previous Blog entirely ignoring other former Colonial powers' involvement elsewhere in the Mid-East just exposes a double-standard of hypocrisy which makes fragrant Margaret's, QOT etc. insistence we Brits "look first" at ourselves just more of the inanely ill-judged, anti-English contribution so markedly out-of-step with Factual Reality.
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re Egyptian education - we the USSR times ran thousands of Egyptians through Russian universities FOC, but it was looong time ago, time our friendship with Naser. Since then I don't know what they did mass-scale re education, if they studied elsewhere or at home.
Mum says it is always organised the same; 2 years preparation course here to learn Russian only, then the 5 year study course.
She teaches at the university and has seen all the various countries' students as USSR-Russia alliances has been historically developing.
Right now she has Kongo and Mozambigue and other African countries, says everyone but from Southern African Republic. ("because they have diamonds, are former British Colony, are richer and never go study in Russia")
Last spring her graduates were Palestinian and Jordan (meteorology), but she says they checked the employmnent of 4 boys and it is a total shame, after 7 years of physics of atmosphere all the four opened oown business, some shops and potato shops!!!
Mozambique and Kongo current crop she says "are very clever, ambitious, half girls, half boys in the group and study better than ours" :o))))))
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"What's the news from there, Libya or whatever
Are we still engaged in all that desert fighting?"
:o)
(St. Petersburg poet Brodsky, 1965)
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#2 It's very easy to say that we shouldn't be 'exploiting these people or their resources' but through allowing them to exploit their resources, both human and natural, we allow them to work their way towards affluence. After all, our throwing money at Africa hasn't helped them to become self-sustaining but China's embracing of capitalism has taken over 13 million people out of poverty.
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jr4412
Re *49
Just a query: "...'we' have carved up Earth into 200-odd Nation states.."
I presume the 'we' cannot be the UK, but general mankind over many centuries?
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cool_brush_work #54.
"I presume the 'we' cannot be the UK, but general mankind over many centuries?"
correct. 'we' == as a species; homo sapiens -- a misnomer, if ever there was one.
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#40 Huaimek
"---I read that Egyptians are educated , but what does that mean ; they have been to university , have a masters degree or Phd ? In Thailand where I live , scores of people have degrees and know next to nothing , Phds are usually bought . It takes more than school and university examinations to educate people . "
I can agree with you on that comment, however we most certainly disagree on what the ´more´ should be. You are sitting in Thailand and use the UK as your standard to judge others -- instead of using your ´world´ experiences to judge the UK -- for which EDUCATION is required.
Any university student who leaves with his (or her) view on the world as intact as when they entered -- has not been educated. It shows they have not utilized the university environment for more than learning a job.
Anyone who leaves a college or university a ´Nationalist´deserves their ´education´ seriously questioned.
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I don't think we bought into any myth about North African Arabs being unsuitable/unfit for democracy. We just followed the time-honoured approach of realpolitik. We feared radical islam which had already brought terror to London more than we wished to encourage democracy, fearing (perhaps not unwisely - time will tell) that these two might be linked. As we've done in relation to most states at most times, we followed what were perceived to be our interests at the time. We cosy up to the Chinese, conveniently forgetting Tibet & Tien an men square. I wonder how far the path of virtue would take us (apart from giving UK PMs the opportunity to lecture others, probably counter-productively)? And it would really do no-one any harm to stop claiming 20/20 hindsight.
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Why does it always come down to Europe giving yet more money .... its like the old 'danegeld', the demands just get higher and higher but no safety is gained ... remember these same populations where people poured onto the streets, calling for death to a Danish Cartoonist, or a woman teacher over a teddy bears name. They are not social democrats.
The high birth rate in the Arab world, has led to populations doubling in 40 yrs and no amount of money can provide that many jobs, hence the driving force for 'change' is the majority of the population who are under 30.
We can expect to see tens of thousands of 'boat people' aka economic migrants, pouring into Italy and Spain over the next few months, and this will just prompt more social unrest, but in France. Italy and the UK, who will be the main final destinations of these migrants.
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But its too late baby now its too late.
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#50 CBW
"---The alacrity of some to provide online links to UK weapons trade etc, whilst in previous Blog entirely ignoring other former Colonial powers' involvement elsewhere in the Mid-East just exposes a double-standard of hypocrisy which makes fragrant Margaret's, QOT etc. insistence we Brits "look first" at ourselves just more of the inanely ill-judged, anti-English contribution so markedly out-of-step with Factual Reality. "
Considering both Britain and France divided most of the Middle East between themselves when the Ottoman Empire fell ---why are you continually attempting to dilute Britain´s role and responsibility for the area ?
Your incessant attempts at putting atrocities, treachery, weapons sales, etc. on a measurement scale -- and then claiming moral superiority for Britain by ´fact dilution´ reminds me of a saying-
´Only the insane and children are not responsible for their actions´-- take your pick !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YybLDLZEo1I&feature=related
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Libya Deputy Rep in UN is asking UN troops to enter and interfere and arrest Kaddafi.
Not the rep., but deputy rep.
?
There is something with the runway, and local air-space is closed.
Russian planes only now got permission to come evacuate, but only first IL is en route right now (out of 5 planned for this morning), and how will it work out with the first airplane re the runway is unclear.
(we rather hope that Putin won't export Kaddafi to us :o)
Air Malta airplane got permission to fly evacuate as well. But "foreigners only".
We've got Gazprom stuck there, and 150 railway builders by Benghazi town.
And a group of journalists lost some place in Sahara desert 2 days ago.
Libya stopped now oil loading from their ports, Italy says. And Libyan oil is 1/4 of Italy's oil.
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It stuns me that the EU and the US seem to know so much much about what is actually happening on the streets of Libya when neither has journalists on the ground. Didn't BBC editors state the fact: that it is hard to report FACTS on Libya when there are no feet on the ground and news relies on social networking (i.e. what is being fed to the western world by the biased few.)
You state: "For the moment the policy can be summed up as opposing violence and supporting dialogue. UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said yesterday: "what Colonel Gaddafi should be doing is respecting basic human rights and there is no sign of that in the dreadful response, the horrifying response, of the Libyan authorities to their protests." How does UK Foreign Secretary William Hague KNOW for a certainty what Gaddafi is doing, what is being done by foreign mercenaries, what is being social networked into the western media?
What I know is that there have been efforts by the CIA and Mossad (possibly others) to destablize various countries in the Middle East, the prime example being Iran. Could there not be scores of foreign elements at work in Libya, hoping to bring down Gaddafi? Is this scenario not as plausible as what the social networks are saying?
Please don't forget that there have been previous elements of this sort e.g. as boasted by Israeli General, Amos Yadlan, the former chief of Israeli Military Intelligence about implanting spy cells in Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Sudan, Egypt, Lebanon and Iran.
The former Chief of Israeli Military Intelligence said: "Networks were actually able to provide us with what we want and that they are capable of negative influence on the situations in Libya, Tunisia, and Morocco after the big experience/achievement made in Iraq, Yemen, and Sudan, and very shortly in Lebanon". So, I don't gather that Israel has made these efforts a big secret, except maybe to media reporting.
Amos Yadlin went on to say: "We have succeeded in stirring up tension and social and sectarian congestion to create a state of permanent division inside the Egyptian state and society."
(Amos Yadlin was a general in the Israeli Air Force (IAF) and was the head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate, known as Aman. Before being promoted to head of Aman, Yadlin was the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) military attaché to Washington, DC. When Yadlin was an officer in the IAF he participated in Operation Opera, which destroyed the Iraqi nuclear reactor. He also served as Deputy Commander of the IAF. Yadlin obtained his master’s degree in Public Administration from the JFK School of Government, Harvard University.)
Is the reporting about Libya another area where Europe does not have clean hands (or at last objective hands)?
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#60
quietoaktree;
Nobody is claiming moral superiority - merely challenging your incessant anti-British one track mind. You have the temerity to challenge someone elses education whilst exhibiting the most narrow , blinkered bigotry of anyone on the blog! I think fondly back to the ECHR blog - standout by the excellent and mature debate, notable for YOUR absence.
However, I notice you mentioned "France" and "Ottoman Empire" so I guess persistance is finally paying off. Round of applause for quietoaktree, yay, well done you!
This a blog about Libya, whose "lines in the sand" were drawn by the Ottomans and whose colonial legacy is Italian, whose oil exports go to Italy and Germany,armed with Russian tanks and French warplanes with roads and rail built by the Chinese. None of which is more or less of a morality issue than the British sniper rifles or BP investments.
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During these days a bloody revolution is spreading in almost all the nations facing the Mediterranean sea,while the world, and Israel in particular, are watching the next outcome.To foresee what might happen, in my personal opinion:
1)The end of the arabs oil monopoly, or
2)The new United States of Africa, or
3)The Afro-European Globalisation,or
4)The Third World War.
Let see and pray.
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38 jr4412 writes:
"...alas, realistically, there's nothing we ('little people') can do, other than absolute refusal to take part,..."
How right you are. And now our dear leader is the first foreign prime minister to visit Egypt and guess what - he has taken the representatives of eight defence firms with him. Some more blood money coming our way and quite blatant about it.
According to one paper this morning Cameron has been accused of "....using a high profile visit to Cairo's Tahrir Square - Ground Zero in the Egyptian popular uprising - as a fig leaf for peddling military equipment."
They practise not what they preach!
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#63 - champagne_charlie
It is not just the hypocracy but the astonishing clarity of vision displayed with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight.
Perhaps it is time to stand back a little and see some of these questions in context.
Oil and Natural Gas.
Whatever our feelings about the environment, ecosystems , alternative energies and so on, it is a fact of life that the major industrial economies will continue to be reliant to a significant degree on fossil fuels for several decades to come. Oil is expensive to search for, none too cheap to extract, has to be transported and refined. Given this is the case, the cost benefits become marginal unless there are reasonable safeguards as to continuity of supply. This generally is achieved by keeping the administration of the territories where this is available on side and compliant. Their records in terms of human rights, internal repression and other such matters are really rather trivial in the great scheme of things.
Inequitable Distribution of Wealth.
In countries where this continuity of supply is availability, the consistent pattern has been for a very small group of ruling elite becoming extraordinarily rich while many ordinary folk continue to live in grinding poverty. This will inevitably lead to discontent and occasional political agitation and the oil rich elites will wish to contain this with the use of repressive measures involving the purchase of military hardware. Their trading partners will be perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to this providing the goal of continuity is sustained.
Arms Supply.
This is the value added bit. If, in addition to being a major purchaser of the product, you also have a significant arms industry, then you are in the double whammy situation. Not only are you getting the oil you need on a regular basis at the right price but a significant percentage of the outgoing is coming back in as income for other goods and services including arms.
Now the do-gooder tendency on here will, a times of crisis, take to the barricades demanding that we in the democracies should be taking a more proactive socio-political role in using this power to further the good of mankind but you notice that they only turn out when the worm has turned. These people are absorbing every detail of the car wreck form the rear view mirror. Where were they when we were coasting along in the fast lane on tanks of cheap fuel without a cloud in the sky? Sounding off from the moral high ground or strangely silent?
So suddenly Europe is keen on Egyptian democracy is it? Or maybe they saw the fall of Mubarak coming and quickly remembered the key role Egypt will play in Nabucco. Sorry Mr. President but this week our bread is buttered on the other side. Let's hear it for democracy. It is beginning to look as if Gadaffi may not be the man who decides who get s the Libyan fields for much longer so it is time for a bit of spread betting. So what if the Chinese win that particular one? There is always Nigeria, Venezuela, India, Bangladesh. Just so long as the oil keeps flowing.
The morality, the ethics are and always have been a very secondary consideration but does this actually make us the appalling hypocrites the new found critics say we are? I think not. There is a wider issue here and that is one of regional stability and reasonable peace. Yes the regimes that are now teetering on the brink may be paying the long term cost of ignoring the legitimate aspirations of their peoples but while we have been busily exporting our questionable standards pf democracy to places such as Iraq and Afghanistan, the relatively untroubled states have continued to pump out barrel upon barrel of the black stuff day in day out without disruption, warfare, interference or hindrance for many decades. It may not be exactly the summit of the moral pile but is is something of an achievement. This has nothing whatever to do with the colonial legacy of Britain, France or anybody else. Its to do with the pursuit of pragmatic self interest of a number of power players in the modern context and there are those of us who sincerely believe that, far from being amoral, it is the very first duty of those responsible for our foreign policy to ensure continuity and stability. Robin Cook is often misquoted in this context. All he required is that there should be 'an ethical dimension to foreign policy', not that we should be charging around like so many knights in shining armour it really is time the bleeding hearts brigade started to engage brain before driving mouth.
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Never mind saving North Africa, the locals will do it themselves and with UK weapons. Kinda of a poetic twist to the Eskund story.
More immportantly Mr Hewitt, were you at that dinner in the villa San Martino with daffy and berlie. And if so did you witness the bunga bunga. Share the details in you next blog.
martin nangle
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When you make a pact with the Devil you had better be prepared to serve you time in Hell. Europe just like he US has wanted to have it all both ways on energy supplies and relations with autocratic arab regimes. Business profits and strategic resources trumped western ideals of human rights and democracy in fact these principles were cynically ignored as interfering with the larger aims of a power hungry western hemisphere. So Europe and the US courted, feted, and propped up vile little regimes in the Middle east and North Africa in the interests of their domestic economies turning a blind eye to the suffering of the peoples held under such regimes. This myopic policy was given a rude awakening in Egypt where the masses have come to actually believe in that western message often repeated as propaganda but rarely actively supported of democracy, human liberty, and the right to sefldeterminiation. For the US it was all about oil and Israel. For Europe it has been all about oil, slightly less about Israel (certainly no interest about the oppressed Palestinians) and very much about these regime thugs investing their ill gotten gains stolen from their subjugated peoples into european businesses. Now the chickens of immoral politics are coming home to roost and europe is in confusion as to what to do. Well if you look at what Gaddafi is doing to his own people, wholesale massacre using African mercenary murderers and employing his military to kill the population it ought to be clear that Gaddafi is a criminal against humanity and should be tried as one and yet Europe's official buffoon Silvio Berlusconi makes excuses for Gaddafi. Amazing! But then Berlusconi is a thug of another sort who believes power and authority gives priviledge and immunity - just like Gaddafi. Birds of a feather? It is selfapparent that Europe has become morally banckrupt, decadent, and hypocritic. It only moves itself to action on issues for Israel when there are charges of resurgent anti-semitism but other than that Europe has been content to play the game with any sort of tyrant if that benefitted both the national and private purse. Events however are of themselves overtaking european leaders. Why has there not been a declared embargo on Libya so far? Why has Gaddafi not been declared outside the law and his capture and arrrest not promulgated by the EU and also the US? Do they still think they can do business as usual with the murdering Gaddafi after this? Berlusconi obviously thinks so! So do the western oil corporations who have temporarily only suspended their operations in Libya. There is no movement of support for the Libyan poelpe's desire and sacrifice to overthrow Gaddafi. It seems Gaddafi knows his western leaders and what they are willing to do or not better than they know themselves. Now is the oppotunity for military intervention of a truely positive kind not like what the sham war built on lies in Iraq was. Unfortuately it looks like the west is letting the moment pass and Gadaafi will reemerge as a greater tyrant than before a fact that has nothing to do with the west's unrelenting desire for Libya's oil that does not cease. Was that what the UK was after by the release of the Lockerbie bomber back to Libya? Now look at Gaddafi's horrific actions is he not the sort of man who would have ordered the bombing of the Pan Am fight? That's the issue here the inability of so called western democracies to do the right thing either singly or together. Time to pay the Devil and he wants oil cash.
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Sports people often talk about controlling the controlables and not getting worked up about things you cannot control.
In the EU we can control our terms of trade (somewhat) with N Africa), we can control immigration (if we have the will) but we cannot control (nor should we) what political solution emerges in each African state following the current crisis.
We should make it clear that mass illegal immigration will not be allowed and if necessary turn every boat found back towards N Africa - if the people on the boats are not too bothered about which country in Europe they eventually end up in why should we bothered which country we send them back to.
We should abolish the CAP. Let N African states enjoy free trade in agricultural goods - if that helps develop their economies that is good. If as a result a few French farmers and German "hobby" farmers go out of business then too bad - the rest of us will benefit.
After that we should leave it to the N African people in each country to decide what political solution works for them. We should make it clear that mass slaughter of protestors and wholesale abuse of human rights will never be acceptable but I am happy to trust the N African people to work out their own solutions to their political problems
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61. Alice
I've been wondering if Scotland will allow al-Megrahi to return to Scotland for health reasons and all. If Gaddafi's health is threatened, can he come too?
What say ye Miss Margaret.........
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@53 Peter White
"China's embracing of capitalism has taken over 13 million people out of poverty"
----
13 / 1300 = 1%
How many of 99% make starvation wages? How many of them are actually needed to support the facade of the affluence? Capitalism, i.e. the economic system based on turnover of capital, is not a holy water working by itself. Shear accumulation of wealth is not enough. What about equal standing before the law?
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@ #56
"Any university student who leaves with his (or her) view on the world as intact as when they entered -- has not been educated. ... Anyone who leaves a college or university a ´Nationalist´deserves their ´education´ seriously questioned."
If I may be so bold as to summarize: If one does not come out of uni with a certain mindset (in this case WITH a certain mindset), then that individual is some sort of backwards dullard. I was under the impression that our scholarly institutions were bastions of free thought and open minds?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#72 TBKSA
---"I was under the impression that our scholarly institutions were bastions of free thought and open minds?"
--- Only if one is willing to participate and risk being ´flattened´ by others who have more ´free thought and open minds´ than oneself.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What are your thoughts on the benefits of democracy in this region's current state? I see several problems with the idealists' view that this could be the birth of democracy.
No nation, as far as I know, has gone straight from a religious, dictatorial regime, to a secular democracy overnight. How long after 1789 did France become a democracy, for example? East European countries, after the wall tumbled in Berlin, seemed to do so overnight. They did, however, have experience with a few open political systems in their history, dating back to Vienna and the Hapsburgs. Also, these newly-free countries were actual nations. Most North African countries have no such political experience and are not historical nations - not good for cohesive development.
Democracy does not promise abundance and jobs and food. It is a political idea, not an economic one. The obvious example being China. I doubt that country could have pulled so many millions into the modern world, avoiding civil war and extreme hunger that plagues so many "democratic" countries. China may have imploded had it gone democratic in the 80's. We all know the human rights problems that arise, but one cannot deny that a strong, top-down approach has achieved what bickering with the opposition party never could, so quickly. China is now doing the same in Africa. Instead of flooding the countries from which it buys food and oil with money, it builds infrastructure. More than the West has ever accomplished in Africa and South America actually.
My guess is that democracy as we understand it cannot just happen in Libya and Tunisia etc. That would be naive - see Iraq invasion, coalition of the willing. What is needed is a pragmatic approach, and dare I say, we could learn something from the Chinese.
My idea, put humbly, would be to trade oil (which we already get) for infrastructure projects, using as much local labour and companies as possible. Where there is no oil, trade for something else. Roads, bridges and hospitals are what they need anyway.
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@ #74
"Only if one is willing to participate and risk being ´flattened´ by others who have more ´free thought and open minds´ than oneself."
It all makes sense now. All that time analyizing and debating subjective matters in civil discourse was wasted. Who would have thunk that strong, independant, conclusions based on reason that support the nation state were all bunk. I should have just sumbitted to the obvious superiority of my betters who are so much more open, tolerant, and free of thought than I.
Pardon the sarcasm and enjoy your thought police.
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Arab awakening.... out of what? 1000 years of sleep or something?
Popular revolts and green horses... whatever...
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@ #76
I like the trade idea with a grain of salty reality. It will be hard to ween the prospecting and refining companies off of the cheap crude deals of the past. Likewise, the countries will have to work extra hard to avoid thier own problems of the past. Example: Glorious leader and friends control the fields (oil and/or agricultural) and hand out pittances to a population who is not fully vested in the governemnt.
Take the China model the same way. It has yet to be seen how the expansion of Chinese political and economic influence will shape the area.
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´Supporting´ the nation state is an unfortunate choice of wording.
The Bush remark -- ´you are either with us or you are against us´ -- is hardly an intellectual ideal when discussing the Pro and Cons of a particular society.
-- if you have nothing for comparison, you are stuck with a ´yes or no´ decision, which it appears you are perfectly happy with.
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#80
quietoaktree;
"-- if you have nothing for comparison, you are stuck with a ´yes or no´ decision,"
What arrogance, coming from the one poster most likely to reject any attempt at comparison. How many times will you fail to practice what you preach before the penny drops? TGKSA identifies you as someone for whom the only comparisons worth making are the ones you make yourself. Everyone else is dismissed out of hand.
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How seriously a nation takes democracy actually depends on how badly they want it and how important it is to them in the overall scheme of things. There are two interesting and contrasting examples which come to mind.
Russia, on the face of it, has moved quite quickly to become a functioning democracy yet doubts continue to be expressed especially by some western observers over the rules of law, the independence of the judiciary and the activities of some elements within the security services. However, dissident voices tend to be heard with some scepticism within Russia itself where the enormous popularity of the United Russia Party, of which Putin is chairman continues unabated. With 315 of the 450 seats in the Duma, they are unquestionably the dominant force in Russian politics and the approval ratings of both the President and the Prime Minister continue to remain on a high level. The lesson would appear to be that the Russians as a whole enjoy the freedoms they have these days but are not especially engaged with campaigns for individual personal liberty, press freedom and so on. This remains the preserve of a small number of activists while the majority appear to be content with the new freedom of property ownership, participation in the markets and the opportunity for self-advancement. Indeed, there is a lot of evidence that many Russians were disturbed by policy drift that occurred during the Gorbachev reforms and distressed by some of the consequences of the Yeltsin period. Many seem to think that strong government is necessary and desirable, even if this involves some limits to personal liberty. The popular appeal of both Putin and Medvedev seems evidence enough that, while democracy is certainly valued, it is not at the top of the list of priorities.
The United Kingdom offers a complete contrast. The British are, on the face of it, the most demanding and freedom conscious of people and are frequently heard to boast of their democratic credentials but the incredibly complacent. They simply take their liberty for granted and some of us have watched with horror, especially in the aftermath of 9/11 when they stood idly by and allowed their liberty to be eroded before their very eyes. Apart from a vociferous minority, very few seemed to notice or care very much that their every move was being watched on CCTV, that the security forces could monitor their computing activity, tap their phones and generally monitor their behaviour in the most intrusive way imaginable. They were sold the line that "if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear" and the vast majority of them bought it hook line and sinker. People really were conned into believing that the state was only interested in pedophiles, arms dealers, drug traders, people traffickers and terrorists. They have bought the standard line because they believe in all sincerity that their rights are extensive and inviolable and it is all for their own good. There can be few nations in the world in which so much is known about so many for no good reason. Do they protest? Do they demand a return to judicial oversight, to magistrates warrants for phone or personal surveillance? Do they object to similar techniques being used by local authorities to check things as tedious as who is putting what into the wrong bin bags or who might be bending the rules the rules to get their kids into a particular school?
They do not. Democracy is being undermined by sheer complacency.
This is very evident in central Europe where some countries struggle to form coherent governments while small parties jockey for position in shaky coalitions while others - Hungary where I live being a good example - people are accustomed to government taking responsibility for them and where strong government is craved and respected.
Translate that into the newly emerging structures of north Africa and the Middle East and it will quickly become apparent that some of these countries will manifest all the symptoms of an emerging democracy but it will quickly become clear that the movement was little more than a vehicle on which to hitch a ride into an alternative but distinctly undemocratic model. One cannot rule out the possibility that one or more will eventually become an Islamic fundamentalist state with all that entails. But those which are serious about democracy and, having tasted their freedom will be unwilling to let it go will probably succeed. Experience or tradition is far less important than some seem to to suppose and the determination to move forward may very well be enough to secure the future.
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65. At 4:30pm on 22 Feb 2011, margaret howard wrote:
"According to one paper this morning Cameron has been accused of "....using a high profile visit to Cairo's Tahrir Square - Ground Zero in the Egyptian popular uprising - as a fig leaf for peddling military equipment."
They practise not what they preach!"
Dear fragrant Margaret! You simply cannot resist can You and as ever no proper research, just barging in prejudicially concluding 'it's the English' at fault!
Might I suggest You read MORE than 1 newspaper & might I suggest You check the sub-text of PM Cameron's visit - - the Factual Reality bit wherein he also took along Advisors offering Medical, Educational & Commercial assistance to the still beleaguered 'new' Egyptian temporary Leadership - - You might even consider the historical link whereby even the 'weapons' theme is directly affecting British 'jobs' were such trade-contracts to be summarily dropped.
Oh, but all that would be insufficient gropunds to avoid another dull, tired innuendo-laden attack on the 'English' by You, wouldn't it!?
You writing of "practise what they preach" where You are concerned contains 'irony' beyond measure!
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60. At 2:08pm on 22 Feb 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
#50 CBW
"..Your incessant attempts at putting atrocities, treachery, weapons sales, etc. on a measurement scale -- and then claiming moral superiority for Britain by ´fact dilution´ reminds me of a saying-
´Only the insane and children are not responsible for their actions´-- take your pick !"
AND,
80. At 10:17pm on 22 Feb 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
´Supporting´ the nation state is an unfortunate choice of wording.
The Bush remark -- ´you are either with us or you are against us´ -- is hardly an intellectual ideal when discussing the Pro and Cons of a particular society.
-- if you have nothing for comparison, you are stuck with a ´yes or no´ decision, which it appears you are perfectly happy with."
PLUS,
74. At 7:58pm on 22 Feb 2011, quietoaktree wrote:
#72 TBKSA
---"I was under the impression that our scholarly institutions were bastions of free thought and open minds?"
--- Only if one is willing to participate and risk being ´flattened´ by others who have more ´free thought and open minds´ than oneself..."
Do please remind us of Your analysis of any topic in which the British/English were not singled out as the cause of everything from the Death of Christ to worldwide Black Death to Global Warming!?
As with Your fragrant ally-in-obsessive-blinkered-context the 'irony' of QOT attempting to claim any sort of objectivism based around intellectual/educational substance just causes guffaws of incredulity!
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"""Do please remind us of Your analysis of any topic in which the British/English were not singled out as the cause of everything from the Death of Christ to worldwide Black Death to Global Warming!?"""
... well they started the industrial revolution which kicked Christ's church out of prominence, brought pollution that causes global warming all while failing to early establish (for a supposedly advanced culture) hygenic standards (with toilets and showers gaining wide acceptance only by late in 19th century), thus having till then contributed to the spread of many plagues (you know those sailors...from port to port...).
Hehe.... So why do you complain?
Why don't you see it the other way? Between 18th and 20th century Britain had been a superpower, a world Empire. As such it acted accordingly. Why would anyone expect such a power to be mother Teresa or something, that is something out of my comprehension. Similarly today when we mention things about US (eg. I openly suggest they are behind these North African and Middle Eastern revolutions), we do not do a moral judgement on their actions. They are a world power and it is in their interest to remain so.
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