The euro: a crisis that defies answers
For the seventh time this year Europe's leaders are in Brussels for a summit.
Most of the previous meetings have been marked by up-beat statements that they stand fully behind the euro and that the crisis is on the way to being solved.
In truth Europe does not yet have a convincing answer to the crisis and the financial markets know it.
Some of the energy at this summit will go towards agreeing treaty changes to the Lisbon Treaty to allow for the setting up of a permanent bail-out fund beyond 2013. Germany would like to see help to other countries in financial distress only being given "in the last resort." There may be some resistance to that.
Most countries do not want treaty changes. The pressure comes from Germany which fears that its Constitutional Court could challenge a permanent mechanism that sets in place precisely what was supposed never to happen - a bail-out fund.
So the treaty changes will be as limited as possible. There is a deep-seated fear in Brussels of having to consult the people in a referendum.
Britain's position is that the new mechanism does not apply to the UK as it is not in the eurozone. It will back the treaty changes but the government will insist that no referendum is needed as the changes do not apply to the UK.
In the draft document there is an undertaking that non-euro states do not have to get involved with the mechanism. Britain is hoping for some form of wording that makes that explicit.
But the European Stability Mechanism will come into force in 2013 and the fire is burning now. The truth is that for the weaker eurozone countries the borrowing costs on the bond markets are too high. Spain was warned yesterday that its debt could be down-graded. Belgium, too, has been shown a yellow card.
The fact is that the current medicine is not working. Greece and the Irish Republic are having to embrace severe spending cuts. No one can see where the growth will come from to pay down those debts.
The markets think the debts of Greece, Spain and Portugal are unsustainable. Next year Spain has "high-financing needs". It will have to raise 170bn euros. The markets doubt it can be done.
There is increasing resistance in Greece and Ireland to what may prove to be a "lost decade" - ten years of cutbacks.
The riots in Athens yesterday against the latest cuts were the worst since May. In Ireland the opposition - who are most likely to win the next election - have said they feel no obligation to honour Ireland's banking debts and they may well try and renegotiate the EU/IMF loans.
There are many who say that eventually some of these debts are going to have to be restructured.
So what options do Europe's leaders have?
First, some are pushing to expand the European Financial Stability Facility, which at 440bn euros is the main bail-out fund. Some have suggested the fund should be doubled to indicate to the markets that, even if countries such as Spain or Italy needed help, Europe's pockets are deep enough.
The think-tank Open Europe says that the "real amount available could actually be closer to 410bn because not all the countries that signed up to the fund will be able to contribute due to the poor health of their own public finances".
Germany, for the moment, is insisting no new funds are needed.
Second, some want a robust statement of total commitment to the euro. That has been expressed before - and only yesterday Chancellor Merkel said "we know that the euro is our collective destiny, and Europe is our collective future". But statements on their own rarely move markets.
Third, the ECB can intervene and buy government bonds. Most people see that as trying to hold the line. It is not a solution.
Fourth, there are those who believe that the countries in the firing line have to undertake radical structural reforms to make their countries more competitive.
The trouble is that Spain and Portugal have appeared as reluctant reformers. They are still - at this late hour - unveiling changes. Jean-Claude Juncker said today that Spain and Portugal needed to give more details of structural reforms to "clear up how they plan to put their own fiscal house in order".
Fifth, there are those who calling for the banks to be re-capitalised. George Soros pointed out "the bondholders of insolvent banks are being protected at the expense of taxpayers and this is unacceptable".
Others like Simon Tilford from the Centre for European Reform have long argued that the only true remedy is fiscal union. However, he concedes, the "political obstacles to such a union appear insurmountable".
Ultimately he believes the euro is unlikely to crack. "EU leaders," he says "will do whatever it takes to save the euro, short of setting up a fiscal union".
In a paper entitled "Beyond Maastrict: a new deal for the Euro-zone" from the European Council on Foreign relations, Thomas Klau and Francois Godement set out what they see as two versions of Europe's future.
"It can continue to stumble through piecemeal reform," they argue, hoping "for the crisis to abate and... leave it to the financial markets to impose fiscal discipline and austerity measures."
The policy they argue will lead to permanent tensions and rising national resentment across the EU. The second and better choice, in their view, would entail a new grand bargain involving Germany which would agree "to endow the eurozone with a panoply of instruments giving Europe the economic and political cohesion it desperately needs to succeed in a world of rising superpowers. "
So, on the sidelines, big questions are being asked about the future of the EU. For the moment - and at this summit - the EU will give an impression of clinging on and muddling through.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~15~RS~)
I'm 
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Unfortunately this will not satisfy the international markets. For them uncertainty is the worse thing that can happen. Also they have now grown tired of vacuous promises coming from Brussels.
Only an international crisis within the eurozone will bring these leaders to their senses. That crisis is likely to occur early next year.
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"For them uncertainty is the worse thing that can happen."
How can that be so? Speculation is inherently based on uncertainty. Without uncertainty there wouldn't be a market. In fact, the certainty that reigned in the last decade over the rise in property prices is what brought on this situation. Long live uncertainty. Certainty is for dummies.
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More and more we hear talk of moving closer to fiscal and eventually political union. In the beginning it was unacceptable and openly opposed. There is only one real question here to answer. Is acceptable to the people. Power is now with the people and to incur their dis-respect will cost governments dearly.
Talking of disrespect the continuing threat to national living standards by the financial profiteers is accelerating the anger of the people. I hope these people in Brussels know not to bite off more than they can chew and rein in if not punish the bond vigilantes. Why should citizens acquiesce to faceless usury who literally gamble with people's future. If power is finally moving to the people then governments will need to start taking their orders or face their wrath.
wikileaks forever.
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Another summit, the same old tired ideas trotted out. No attempt to actually fix the problems the main one being the bloated EU itself. The more the EU hoovers up cash from its members, the greater the problems being heaped on the very same members.
One thing is for sure: when the whole edifice comes down the EU Commissioners (past and present) will not be out of pocket...
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Like every other decision the UK govt has made, the one to give an extra loan to Ireland seems rushed.
Our positive balance of trade with Ireland decreased by 17% last year. The amount the UK is giving directly to Ireland, as well as via the EU, in loans will within a few years be more than what the UK receives through exports, unless Ireland's economy turns around quickly enough to start importing more from the UK again.
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It is not in the interest of the British Large Landowners that Britain rocks ANY EU boat and risk the CAP from any angle.
-- no referendum on anything !
-- place your bets ?
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The problem that needs to be addressed is how do you drop the living standards of Greeks, Irish, Portuguese and to a lesser extent the Spanish back to a level that is in keeping with their countries true economy? They have all lived on credit for the last ten years and got used to new cars, foreign holidays, expensive houses and all the other trappings of wealth. All of which would not have occurred if they had their own currencies, higher interests on loans and higher costs of imported goods. Take ireland: it has a reasonable amount of foreign investment, tourism and agricultural products. 91% of all exports are from foreign owned firms hence the cash comes in the front door and after local costs goes straight out the back door. Tourism is dead due to hiking up costs of accommodation, meals etc as a result of catering to the local market spending on credit. Their agriculture is struggling as the majority goes to the UK and as the Euro has strengthened against Sterling the products have become very expensive.All of that needs to be corrected before Ireland has any hope of real growth. And the only way ( inside the Euro ) is for prices, salaries and living standards to drop right back.
Greece is another country I know very well indeed. Again it has tourism, some agriculture and shipping. Tourism is down - once again as a result of high prices relative to the quality of food and accommodation. Most agriculture is for the domestic market and ship owners are canny enough to keep their money outside Greece. Some of them are friends so I know that this is the case! So where does Greece earn the money to live the way that Greeks do? They don't - it's credit again. I used to see car show rooms stuffed with the latest models, new boats in the marinas and some of them owned by friends whom I know can't afford them. For Greece to become competitive again ( inside the Eurozone ) this life style has to be wound back to where it should be.
Now we see the magnitude of the changes that are needed. Can they be achieved from within the Euro - I very much doubt it.
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euormartin wrote: "I hope these people in Brussels know not to bite off more than they can chew and rein in if not punish the bond vigilantes. "
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Interesting viewpoint. Kill the messenger or vultures, if you will. The "bond vigilantes" as you call them ONLY appear on the scene when there is a corpse. The corpse in this case being a national economy that was killed by a government. So, to go after the vultures eating at the dead body RATHER then the murderer is of course very silly indeed.
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Cameron’s position is a joke. If he does not use the excellent hand he has now to negotiate for the return of powers that the UK wants, he quite simply does not want to resist the federalists at all. If he cannot achieve anything with a set of Aces in his hand, what will he do when other governments want something of him in the future and he has fewer cards to play?
Cast-iron Cameron and vague Hague have to go. 5 years of Labour followed by a government determined to change the UK-EU relationship would be far better than the never-ending Brussels rule these directionless drifters would 'lead' us into. The sooner the career of these drifters is over the better.
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Gavin, it's not only an issue of Constitutional Court's challenge.
'Germany would like to see help to other countries in financial distress only being given "in the last resort." ' - you wrote.
And for a pretty good reason.
One more bail-out (Court or no Court) and Merkel and her government are toasts.
All Germans I talk to are unanimous about it.
[At this rate her government will soon lose its majority not only in Bundesrat]
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When the problem was presented at one level and was really at another.... When the actions taken by the governments were to secure wealth.... When those who caused the problem and suggested the solutions continue to benefit from a crisis they caused, one should not be surprised that nothing has changed.
They will do the right thing after they have tried everything else and the people will not longer tolerate the political and power gamesmanship.
The other side of the world is moving forward and the money will head in that direction...money is never patriotic.
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"3. At 3:07pm on 16 Dec 2010, euormartin wrote:
More and more we hear talk of moving closer to fiscal and eventually political union. In the beginning it was unacceptable and openly opposed."
The bankers and financial companies did it by themselves. They had full freedom, but they blew it with their own greed. Now our only hope is that irresponsible bankers are put to strict supervision.
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Illogicbuster wrote: The corpse in this case being a national economy that was killed by a government.
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Was there not also a banking crisis. The idea of any kind of vultures preying greedily on the misfortune of citizens regardless who is to blame is not the route for a modern civilised society. We work as a team for the benefit of all and not just for the gambling few in the financial casino. Re adjustments are certainly necessary but this will be truly punishing for some who understands little or nothing about the use of sophisticated financial instruments. It smacks of conflict between money and humanist values.
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#6
quietoaktree;
"It is not in the interest of the British Large Landowners that Britain rocks ANY EU boat and risk the CAP from any angle.
This blog is not about Britain or the CAP. Its about the Euro, which Britain is not a part of. You are as bad as marcus for copynpasting your replies before the question has even been posed.
However, I thought by now that my attempts to enlighten you on CAP would have rubbed off, particularly in the areas of transparency, on the dominance of big French and German producers and co-op farms, and on how little difference CAP makes to the landed gentry of the UK compared to their wider incomes. I guess it was all "in one ear and out the other". Typical of an idealogue I suppose.
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7. At 5:57pm on 16 Dec 2010, zorba wrote:
"""The problem that needs to be addressed is how do you drop the living standards of Greeks, Irish, Portuguese and to a lesser extent the Spanish back to a level that is in keeping with their countries true economy? ...
...For Greece to become competitive again ( inside the Eurozone ) this life style has to be wound back to where it should be."""
You start from the inverse. None will dictate how the people live. That is their problem. The things you refer concern a minority of illegal traders, black marketers and party cronies, the usual green-guardians and blue-boys. It is how much? The 5%, 10% of society - and I do not care how visible they are in this small country. So why do the rest must lower their standards? Because perhaps "that is the way it is"?
Concentrate on the basic: the need is first to make a state of laws and make the legal system work. When you start punishing both the tax evader and also the state and the tax officer when they are too illegal, then you start collecting and somehow it gets easier.
If you start by speaking about level of life as if it is the simple workers' problem all that, then I know there is something wrong in either your way of thinking or your real motives behind. Cos is the cronies that speak like that playing the game of collective guilt. No, there are responsibles and we know them 1 after 1, names addresses, everything. Problem is that they are "the system" as my friends anarchists say. You cannot touch them as my friend Mc Hammer says.
"""Now we see the magnitude of the changes that are needed. Can they be achieved from within the Euro - I very much doubt it."""
For the particular case of Greece, the case of euro or no euro is not the big question. The big question is how the country will defend first of all its sovereignty and how it will protect its geostrategic interests. If you were old enough (not that I am, but I do get informed) you would know what was the main reason for Greece to join the EEC back in the late 1970s, under what climate it enterred, what was the official explanation, what was the declaration of other Europeans in relation to that and what were the expectations of the Greek people who were the most anti-EEC(let alone EU) people in Europe back then and that is why they voted for the first populist that promised to get them out of there.
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"""Fifth, there are those who calling for the banks to be re-capitalised. George Soros pointed out "the bondholders of insolvent banks are being protected at the expense of taxpayers and this is unacceptable"."""
So said the henchman of the Rothchilds, ehehe... My friend George is just being ironic, see he has a great sense of humour, but I would really suggest him to stick to organising white, orange and pink revolutions rather than commenting on european politics and speaking as-if against his very own interests (he would make war if European states did what he proposes above - I tell you he has a great sense of humour).
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Nik, I agree totally with what you say on most matters but Greece in the EU was not a bad thing as a common market.People forget what the original EU was all about as it has become such an overriding bureaucracy. But in the Euro? I am not sure that the Euro has been good for the whole of Greece. Greece is also loosing it's sovereignty bit by bit. Look at the Lisbon treaty. EU law overides Greek law! When Greece fought for independence it wasn't to give it up to a bunch of unelected eurocrats. What concerns me is how Greece once again becomes competitive and does what it does best. In the Euro I can't see how that will be achieved without an unacceptable amount of pain.
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Northern europeans (protestants with a work ethic) must stop thinking that Mediterraneans drinking wine and cooking decent food are being extravagant. And, what is all this work doing? polluting, wasting. Get real
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Will the Euro survive in its current form beyond 2011?
I doubt it.
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17. At 8:52pm on 16 Dec 2010, zorba wrote:
"""I am not sure that the Euro has been good for the whole of Greece."""
Certainly it has been catastrophic for the short term financial manipulations which are no more enough to hold the situation. It also impedes any kickstart effort. As Nigel (the well known one) said it before describing Van Rompuy as... uncharismatic, the euro is a financial sadomazochism.
"""Greece is also loosing it's sovereignty bit by bit. Look at the Lisbon treaty. EU law overides Greek law! When Greece fought for independence it wasn't to give it up to a bunch of unelected eurocrats."""
To be honest, I never remember Greece as being ever much more sovereign. The state had always been a protectorate, one way or another. Perpahs being an EU protectorate can be seen as the least dishonest case afterall (not that I condone this of course).
"""What concerns me is how Greece once again becomes competitive and does what it does best. In the Euro I can't see how that will be achieved without an unacceptable amount of pain."""
Well now you hit the nail. That is what Greeks have to look. 1st either punish or at least stop the action of the villa & yacht owners you mentioned above, and 2nd find those things we can do good to stand again in our feet.
Well historically Greece never made money out of having lots of manufacturing industries or agriculture or something apart particular trades (specific agricultured and manufactured products). The main source of money for Greece was being at the center of the East Mediterranean commerce, between Asia-Africa and Europe as well as between Black Sea and Mediterranean. However I do not see how in the current geopolitical context we can easily put Greece again on the trade map. The internationalised Greek shipping industry won't come to Greece just to play the patriotic industry or something. It is Greece that has to make the steps to drag a part of the Eastern Mediterranean commerce. How to do so when not only US, not only Britain but the bulk of European countries find this idea as downright bad? Let alone other geopolitical implications. When Kissinger said what he said back in the 1970s he did not say it in the air. There are geopolitical implications in the area and Greece is not part of the plan: it is told to sit down in the corner.
What we have to see is what we do in this case? Keep voting for US-citizens like Jeffrey in hope they might take a chunk so we will not be hungry or something? Or go against and risk being invaded, are we prepared to fight? Are all that youth (a very small part of the Greek youth) that goes out to smash shops in the streets prepared to fight - this in the general sense? Or will they be the first traitors? Will the Greek people remain passive? Historically taking it, yes, they will remain passive. Just like they did in Cyprus. Just like they did in Imia. Greeks tend to react only at the time when the place is already littered with corpses stinking all over... Sorry to use harsh words but that is what it is like. In my opinion, the Greek average citizen has just started waking up to what is going on around him but is still dazed and confused and has not yet liberated himself of 60 years of the right-left wing pest imposed upon the people to divide and conquer. The recent elections of 2009 giving rise to Jeffrey, the man that only 2-3 years back the Greek people considered overwhelmingly as ridiculous little american, incapable, treacherous, globalist & servant of banks shows it all. So I do not expect much from there. The only thing I hope is some kind of change of geopolitical balances in the near future which will permit the appearence of better leadership.
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Mr.Hewitt
Do not put the "financial markets" on a pedestal.
The "financial markets" are the problem. The Euro summits are related to solving that problem. The "financial markets" are attacking small nations with enormous funds. The EU must retaliate by creating enormous funds.
The "financial markets" are not good or healthy. When the Eurozone has stabilised, the next smallest prey will be the UK.
Then the "financial markets" will not be presented by you in any kind of positive light at all. In fact, by then, your job will have been killed by these "financial markets" and Sterling will have vanished.
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18. At 9:02pm on 16 Dec 2010, sabcarrera wrote:
"""Northern europeans (protestants with a work ethic) must stop thinking that Mediterraneans drinking wine and cooking decent food are being extravagant. And, what is all this work doing? polluting, wasting. Get real"""
Bof... I am tired to hear all those. It reminds me of the good old comparison between German cars to French cars when French were never interested to construct very expensive cars, while Germans were but still their most expensive Porches look like the poor relative in front of even low-scale (and similar price tag) Ferraris. Aside the tacky car-comparison, one thing that people do not know is that Italians have the full range of industrial sectors up to the highly-technological ones including the space sector where in terms of capacity to built particular applications (and not just the generalist satelites - bread and butter of spatial applications by today) Italians are leading over Germans and strive to be as close as possible to French who are the European leaders in that sense.
Plus they still cook better and have some really good wines too (like French do). So yes, they do things better it seems.
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@Zorba,
What can Greece, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, etc. dobetter outside the Eurozone that the Euro stops them from doing inside the Eurozone? The Euro is a currency that enables countries engange in economic activity with certainty of what their currency can buy for them. If those countries decided to borrow as governments and individuals to high heavens it is not the Euros fault.
The Eurozone should push ahead with reform that makes it to the financial gablers that it is here to stay and the salami tactics of attacking it will not work.
Regarding sovereignty, it doesn't come in a form of a peso like currency with pretty pictures on it, like the one we have here in the UK, it comes in the form of a country that builds roads and ports and schools and hospitals and factories. The Euro enables countries to do that, but laws and rules need to be followed. Blame the Euro if you wish and the EU, but the problems rests with every one of the canny ship owners, that keeps their money outside the country and do not pay taxes, lets be fair here and balme who ready is to blamed for the situations it has nothing to do with Eurocrats in Brussels and everything to do with local politicians and people in the member states.
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euormartin wrote: "Was there not also a banking crisis."
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Irrelevant. The crisis that Greece, Port, et al face is there OWN debt from YEARS of overspending. It has ZERO to do with the "banking crisis". If they hadn't spent WAY more than they were taking in for YEARS, they wouldn't need their own bailout. So again, why kill the vultures rather than the murderer?
Well euormartin?
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So the Cameron rolls over again; gives in without anything in return.
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"So the treaty changes will be as limited as possible. There is a deep-seated fear in Brussels of having to consult the people in a referendum."
That isn't surprising given the reluctance of some member states to submit the treaty to a referndum of the people in the first place. This fear of the people smacks of elitism and does not bode well for European democracy under the EU.
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Yo Alice.........Ref. 234 previous blog
I don't care what you do with hammer and sickle flag but you keep that stars and bars. I think I will look for hammer and sickle for my dacha. :o)
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22 Nik writes:
"..one thing that people do not know is that Italians have the full range of industrial sectors up to the highly-technological ones including the space sector where in terms of capacity to built particular applications (and not just the generalist satelites - bread and butter of spatial applications by today.."
I bet they are Northern League Italians!
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Alice ps
There is a sticker in the South that reads "Hell no, I ain't forgetting". You don't see em much anymore but for us old folks.......well. What about you? Will you ever forget?
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our time is different, naughty, but we search for happiness like they did in old times
so we're chasing this Time, that is flying out off away from our hands
problem is, in the race, we're losing along our best comrades ;o(
not noticing, on the go, in the rush, that the friend by your side is not anymore
and for a very long time more - we'll be mis-taking lights for fires
for a very long time more - sound of leather high boots will sound ominous to us
about war will be children's games, of old names,
and, for a very long time more, we'll be dividing people into "ours" and "enemy"
So when all this will rattle off away, will burn out, and will be wept out
And when our horses will get tired to gallop under us
And when our gals o), will finally change their military coats to dresses in small flowers
- I wish we do not forget all this! do not forgive! And do not lose.
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" The treaty change can be approved through a simplified procedure, EU officials say.
That means the EU should avoid any repeat of the wrangling and referendums that plagued the treaty negotiations for years." [BBC News]
An referenda are something which should be avoided at all cost, right? :)
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MaudDib wrote:
Meerkat
Live long and prosper. \\//_
Thanks, MaudDib. Ditto.
And stay warm and healthy wherever you are.
[I hope it's not too cold, snowy and icy there?]
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Thank you, MaudDib. I nearly forgot :o) But I do! have colours
must be was an intuitive solution. For one can't , without colours! on a ship
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I've also got father's, old, torn, from a sub.
They look a strange pair.
I badly need a ship, to send yours on a round-the-world.
will think of ways :o)
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Writing from the United States and watching developments in Britain and the EU through "foreign" press outlets - because American coverage is superficial or non-existent - I am warmly impressed with every contributor I read on this page. Apart from ideological differences, the degree and depth of understanding shown by everyone gives me hope that correct and wise political policies are possible in your country.
Personally, I feel that a nation is not a market but a society. That because money is essential to everyone, and is a means to end and not an end in itself, it must be used and managed for the "common good". (My simple two cents).
Best of luck. You are very smart people.
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ummmmm .... but isn't this all just spin to keep the dear old Tory right wing happy (or less grumpy at least).
1. The Coalition is supporting a 2.9% INCREASE in the Commission budget;
2. UK banks (including those owned by the Government) have let tens of billions to Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy and their banks. Can Cameron PROMISE no UK money will be paid to "bail out" those countries and banks? Of course not! Statements about not contributing through the new stability fund are simply window dressing.
3. The UK's financial health is in fact dependent on the health of the euro and the eurozone.
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Cameron, Osborne and the Coalition are Federalists. Surely you can all see that now.
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I can't help but feel that the issue is less about money and more about politics.
Surely no one doubts taht the economies of the PIGS need deep structural reform - (I might also include France as a possible candidate) - they will get some of that as Germany (and the IMF) dole out some of their cash but the underlying problem is them being in an ill-matched currency. That this has been said many times before doesn't detract from its validity.
So the question then is, can the Eurozone countries recognise the need to seize the moment and create two 'euros' a soft and a hard one? The soft one would initially, need to have some sort of support mechanism from the hard one - That is essentially what is happening now with Germany, Netherlands et al bailing out the PIGS, so why not accept the reality?
The PIGS will not get off 'Scot free' - they will still have to make significant reductions in public spending but with a 'looser', more appropriate currency they will have a chance to trade out of the crisis. And if they can't then they default on their bonds and their bankers and bond-holders take the mother of all hair-cuts. I can't see the bankers getting away without some hair-cutting occurring. I sense that as with sub-prime, the banks are in denial and looking for governments to bail them out.
The other Euro-zone members will then be free to wear the hair shirts that they have always worn and continue to enjoy the fruits of their fiscal rectitude - even though some of their banks may be caught by the PIGS barbers.
Please though, in all of this, can we keep the UK out of it?
Here is a simple statement for William Hague or David Cameron to make.
"We will not participate in nor make any financial or otherwise contributions to any further rescue packages and very specifically will not sign-up to any extension or change to the Lisbon Treaty without consulting the British public by way of referendum. For the sake of clarity, we state that any such referendum will only be put to the British public once and the people's decision on the single issue topic, will be final and binding"
Radical, I know but if you don't nail your colours to the mast, they tend to get blown here and there by the winds of expediency.
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# 35 wrote
Writing from the United States and watching developments in Britain and the EU through "foreign" press outlets - because American coverage is superficial or non-existent
In my experience, suggesting that American media coverage is 'superficial' suggests a depth and possibly breadth which simply doesn't exist. Now if Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan were involved in these talks then maybe America would sit-up and take notice - at least at what they are wearing (or not wearing!)
On a more serious note, the USA also has deep structural problems with its 'public' economy' but I sense that you may just pull out of the descent while the EU will be unable.
I can't decide if the EU should go to Gamblers Anonymous or to drug rehab. Doubling down on debt or injecting more debt as a shot in the arm for the economy - does the Betty Ford clinic do both?
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CBW,
Because you like Midler,
I think DemoThreat would like this one too,
maybe...dont fret tho, CBW,
"For Free" by Joni Mitchell, sung by Midler when sooo young (23)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJIaDkbCzNU
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And Web Alice,
I like your video of Che'
:)))
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Here is a Rebellious song for the ages
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzwhgNyihOo
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angst for europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr9OPrxK560
thats all for a long while
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One of the biggest problems with the Eurozone and one which is repeatedly ignored is the fact that it is a single currency without a single financial policy! Until and unless financial policy is decided for the whole Eurozone then the currency will just drag itself from one crisis to another!
The major problem with the individual countries is that the governments have followed narrow minded short term financial planning thinking that they can continue to create large piles of debt and living beyond their means leaving inflation to take care of things. Unfortunately for them, payday has arrived early and they find themselves with empty coffers due to them giving all their money to the bankers! Another narrow minded and short term decision!
Bankers have to be prepared to pay for their mistakes, governments have to be held responsible for their mistakes and financial policy has to be changed so that countries live within their means!
As for (as has been brought up here) the financial status of America... don't make me laugh, I was just reading in Time magazine this morning that a deal regarding tax cuts has been reached that will involve the American government having to take out an extra 900 billion dollars of debt next year! If America wasn't so powerful then without a doubt they would be facing just as bad situation as Europe if not worse!
Luckily the Chinese will soon come and save us all, they seem to have plenty of spare cash sitting around doing nothing right now, and I for one would rather eat chicken wok than hamburgers anyway!
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Surely the only way forward is to get out of this corrupt EU at the very earliest opportunity. Who will lead us in this seemingly much sought after direction?
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#44. At 08:35am on 17 Dec 2010, Angryfinlandfff
If you can read German you should take a look at the front page article of former chancellor Helmuth Schmidt in this week's edition of Die Zeit. If not, you might be able to get a translation via Google. I think you will be enliven by the article.
EU is a process where we don't know the answer. The current crisis might result in more integration - which would be a logic way to go - but it would also mean that Germany gets more influence, and that is something, which can activate anachronistic notions about national states.
It is not helpful that chancellor Merkel hesitates like another Hamlet, but in the end - so Schmidt - will Germany have to take financial responsibility. Since there will be some changes in the political rule to accompany this, we will have to wait for the political process to develop.
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#24 16 Dec 2010, Illogicbuster wrote:
It has ZERO to do with the "banking crisis".
Now, 1llogic buster, really. This forum is supposed to be a kind of serious. If you are not sure about the banking practices and their culture of gambling (shorting etc). Check it out. It has everything to do with the banking crisis. These people are the players in a game of creating debt from a sea of virtual funds.
I agree with the fact that citizens overspent and that governments lost their way and joined the folly of easy money. But the fact is as where they are being forced to fix their habits.
Bankers are stil insisting they are not at fault and should be allowed to carry on as before. This will not be permitted to happen. People have power and will use that power. Meaning, they WILL default and print their own money if push comes to shove.
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Every time the expression "the markets" are being used here it is a reason to repeat to yourself what kind of people and enterprises it is, which makes up "the market". And why we need politics to regulate "the market".
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24. At 11:08pm on 16 Dec 2010, Illogicbuster wrote:
"""Irrelevant. The crisis that Greece, Port, et al face is there OWN debt from YEARS of overspending. It has ZERO to do with the "banking crisis". If they hadn't spent WAY more than they were taking in for YEARS, they wouldn't need their own bailout. So again, why kill the vultures rather than the murderer?"""
Indeed seemingly it seems to be the case. But dig a bit just a few cm below the surface you will find the full link and it goes down to the way the international banking system works. The banking crisis was traced down to the downfall of big american institutions isn't it? And why did they fall? Because of the estate market. Why? Because banks were giving loans to people that were mathematically not able to buy the houses they were given the money to buy.
And what you think happened in the case of Greece, Portugal or Ireland? Any different? Greece had already taken loans to 80-90% of its GDP in 1989 and it survived 20 years ... its 20 years, it is not 2-3, just like that. Out of 20 years only 8 had been in eurozone so eurozone or no eurozone Greece survived with a debt ranging from 90 to 110% of its GDP all while as a country it had already stopped being productive after the PASOK-pest of the 1980s. I.e. identical methodology to both private people, enterprises and states.
You should also question yourself, why on earth, say in the case of Greece they waited for 20 years and the rushed in 2009 to create the crisis when exactly Greece slowly (but steadily) was turning again into real projects (Russian gas, reconstruction of ports and leasing to Chinese), which mathematically would bring the country in a better state to pay off its huge debts the creditors have "tolerated" for 20 years now.
Understand the case?
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With a EUro Currency whose membership includes Nations requiring this level of assistance from outside the 'Zone' is it not pertinent & feasible to ask, What sort of Currency zone has to have International Monetary Fund loans in order to stave off the collapse of a National Economy?
BBC News headline - - IMF agrees 22.5bn euro loan for the Irish Republic:
'The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has approved a three-year loan of 22.5bn euros ($30.1bn; £19.2bn) for the Republic of Ireland.
The funds form the first part of the IMF's contribution to the EU and IMF rescue package totalling 85bn euros being received by the Irish Republic.
About 5.8bn euros of the IMF funds will be immediately available for Dublin.
Irish MPs voted to accept the EU-IMF bail-out this week, as the government seeks to restore its finances....
...It is also having to shore up the country's banks, which have been left with significant bad debts following the collapse of the country's property market.
As a condition of receiving the EU-IMF rescue package, the Irish government has had to unveil substantial spending cuts, which has sparked a number of protests.
The IMF announcement came as EU leaders agreed to set up a permanent mechanism to bail out any member state whose debt problems threaten the 16-nation eurozone...'
Mathiasen argues at #48, "why we need politics to regulate "the market"."
He implies more 'Political' control is needed for the 'Markets' to prevent irresponsible activity.
It is an arguyment that has its appeal, however when did a 'Political' authotity ever create the stability for a supra-National currency? When did a 'Political' oversight of Financial Regulation & activity ever manage to produce the desired effect? Indeed, where the EU is concerned what sort of 'Political' leadership ever managed any sort of 'Financial' self-control?
From the Weimar melt-down through to the 1929 Wall Street Crash and onto recent 'sub-prime' instigated recession there has always been some sort of 'Political' authority at Natuional & International level involved with the 'Markets': None of them had any effect once the 'confidence' is not there in the reliability of Banks etc. to pay their way.
How can anyone place any 'confidence' in this latest round of EU 'Political' connivance at 'Finanical Unity': The EU 'Politicvians' cooked their own books to create the EUro-zone, for a decade ignored all the signs that in any Fiscal-Economic crisis several EUro-zone members would fold up, and even in the last 12 month the EU Leadership has consistently attempted to fool the 'Markets' with repetitious declarations of 'all is well' followed by proclamations of 'EU has solved the crisis'!
None of that has worked because none of it has been true: The 'Markets' know this and hence why would anyone now sudenly believe & trust these 'Political' leaders just because they are claiming to have 'taken charge' more closely than ever before?
I foresee an ongoing 2011 Financial instability across the EUro-zone because of these 'Polticians' having the legal 'oversight that none of them is actually fit to hold.
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The Germans recently were blamed to be "uneuropean" by Juncker and others.
Now the British made it clear that they will stay apart while most other countries try to handle the current problems.
These problems occur within the eurozone, but they are of serious economical nature and not only a matter of the currency. Therefore all members of the EU are asked to help.
Britain announced help for Ireland, but only for Ireland. In all other cases of emergency the goverment in London seems to think: Not our business!
If this remains true, this lack of solidarity is "uneuropean" indeed.
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My hunch, for what it's worth, is that the Euro is doomed. I should say that I am not an economist and claim no special qualifications, just an interest in the subject.
Why is the Euro doomed? In the country where I live, Spain, the government has just issued bonds at interest rates of 5.4% and 6% on 10- and 15-year bonds respectively, while Germany can raise money at around 2.5%. The cost of Spanish borrowing only needs to rise a little bit more and Spain will need to borrow money sinmply to pay the interest on its existing debts. This is unsustainable. Nor will it help if the ECB starts buying Spanish bonds - the yield will keep on rising to reflect the falling price of already-issued bonds.
The basic problem is that the Spanish and other peripheral economies in the Euro are yoked to Germany. If the D-mark and the peseta were reintroduced tomorrow the value of the former would shoot up while the latter would plummet to reflect the strengths of the respective economies (one consequence of which would be to make German exports much dearer and Spanish exports much cheaper). But sharing the same currency does not allow this type of revaluation.
So on the one hand there is what the politicians in Brussels want and on the other the brute forces of economics. The politicians are powerful but I suspect they will have to bend to economics in the end, and the longer they wait the more painful it's going to be.
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#51
dietrich;
In case you hadn't realised, Britain is skint, the pot is empty. It gets none of the alleged benefits of being in the single currency , yet you think it should pay when Eurozone economies fail?? You might like to downplay the issue of the Euro and try to blow this up into an EU-solidarity issue, but it wont work. This is ALL about the Euro and the shambolic attempts to integrate Germany and France with the likes of Greece and Spain, which has a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding long term.
As for Ireland, the UK is giving them money because of Eurovision. Without those 12 points, it would be UK "nil points" everytime. That is real solidarity. If Greece started giving the UK "douze points", instead of Cyprus, things might be different.
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euormartin wrote: "I agree with the fact that citizens overspent and that governments lost their way and joined the folly of easy money. But the fact is as where they are being forced to fix their habits."
----------------------------------------------------------------
ROFL!
No they aren't. The governments are BORROWING more money (see Greece, Ireland) and thus creating MORE debt. So, borrowing MORE (which is what they were doing BEFORE) is a change of habit? LOL
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54. At 12:37pm on 17 Dec 2010, Illogicbuster wrote:
"""No they aren't. The governments are BORROWING more money (see Greece, Ireland) and thus creating MORE debt. So, borrowing MORE (which is what they were doing BEFORE) is a change of habit? LOL"""
Do you believe so? Because you really believe so? Or because it is convenient to discart the existing reality with an easy view like that. So can you really indicate to me one decent-sized state that does not own a lot? One that is clearly on the positive? One that got developed without borrowing from the international markets?
Do you think that borrowing is a conscious option taken by countries' leaderships for the best of the countries? And do you think that countries' leaderships have an independent decision making process or something?
What else?
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Euro! Euro! Euro! - Crash! Crash! Crash!
Hooray! Set us free!
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Since its entering into the Eurozone, the Germany has been faced with the problem of biting a law of the physics. That would be the law of communicating vessels. How to keep the level of water as high as before, on one's own side, with so many vessels connected? The same problem doesn't seem to bother Greece, Ireland, etc.
Anyhow, the EU is "clinging on and muddling through", as the article accurately says.
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#51 Dietrich
Yes , the British people are uneuropean and the British government has to make the right noises and watch their backs .
I believe that if there was an IN or OUT referendum in Britain , there would be a majority in favour of leaving the EU .
These talks that have been taking place to have a permanent resolve to support counties that are in danger of default , are a nonsense , burying their heads in the sand . There still remains a likelyhood that Greece will eventually default and probably Ireland too . If Spain or Italy were needing assistance the EU would be unable to help them . The Euro was an error of judgement from it conception . It would be better to declare an end to the Euro NOW and let everyone return to their original currencies .
The problem is the loss of face and potential collapse of the EU . The collapse of the EU in its present form would be a good thing and pave the way for a new much looser union with no dream of ever closer union . The members of the commission will be concerned about what will happen to them , the MEPs and the army of bureaucrats , the loss of the gravytrain .
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If Britain's coalition govt manages to eliminate the UK structural deficit in five years ... it is estimated to take up to 30 years from now, before the UK national finances break even and the UK debt mountain is paid back and Britain is in the 'black'. This does not even address corporate debt and other govt liabilities for pensions, PFI, infrastructure, emergencies, bulging population, ageing etc.
This is the underlying financial position of the UK ... very weak... the UK is still very much in this with the poorest of the PIIGS + Belgium and others.
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53. At 12:12pm on 17 Dec 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:
"""As for Ireland, the UK is giving them money because of Eurovision. Without those 12 points, it would be UK "nil points" everytime. That is real solidarity. If Greece started giving the UK "douze points", instead of Cyprus, things might be different."""
Hahah... Problem is that if we give anything else there will be a huge issue. One year Cyprus came up with a song lesser than even the lamentable level of the Eurovision contest (imagine...) and Greece put 10 points instead of 12. It was a huge issue!!! Cypriots crying "our brothers do not love us anymore" but then they forgot that some years further back they had done the same putting 10 points to Greece and they had the Greek government telephoning the Cypriot government to ask "what's the problem guys! what did we do wrong!".
"""This is ALL about the Euro and the shambolic attempts to integrate Germany and France with the likes of Greece and Spain, which has a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding long term."""
The problem champagne_charlie is not so much that countries like France, Germany, Britain, Danemark, Spain, Italy, Greece, Bulgaria etc. have different economies. The problem is that they have not aligned yet even to an acceptable level their interests, their defense, their energy policies and their basic fninancial policies' lines.
Just to give you an example:
Southstream. A project of vital importance for Bulgaria, Greece, Italy and Austria, yet a project that is against German interests (already connected by Northstream) and one that is hugely against British interests - them and especially the latter being willing to provoke tension and trouble to cancel the project.
How do you expect the lot to go on without having resolved first what they want?
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"As for Ireland, the UK is giving them money because of Eurovision. Without those 12 points, it would be UK "nil points" everytime. That is real solidarity. If Greece started giving the UK "douze points", instead of Cyprus, things might be different."
Eurovision is badly timed; it should be done before the countries' budget time for the next year, it is too late to turn around in May.
I am always very sad when I see Britsih-Russian zero point
"exchanges" :o(
I understand it is difficult :o)))), to collect one's moral strength and like, will, and award things for most of the "things" there, but then one shouldn't be distracted by popmusic in such important, "geopolitical" ;o))) things, as Nik says. Close your eyes, plug your ears, collect your last moral resources - and vote! for crying out loud.
After all, that's the only real "vox populi" in the continent.
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I would like to echo 35's comment. I congratulate all who have contributed to these discussions - it gives me hope! I am always amazed by the apathy, laziness and lack of interest that 'the man in the street' often shows. If you don't speak up then you deserve what you get.
While we are on the subject of the EU - how about a Europe wide campaign to get the commission to reduce their spending? As we are all suffering cuts why don't they show solidarity by taking a cut in wages and perks, cutting out a lot of the waste ( like the expense of moving to Strasburg every year ) and showing that they really represent the interests of the people of Europe. Now that would revive the Pan European Dream!!
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I stopped voting "by heart" long time ago. Whenever you cast a glance - don't see any true allies of Russia! They only cover up! With their 12 points! ;o))))))))
Well, if only, may be Armenia.
But the way they arranged a NATO tour of new Russian "facilities" installed there, a month ago - I think I've got no one to vote for at all! ;o)))))) come the next May
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It's not cheap to vote! 1 euro - a phone call.
one should think of investing it better.
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I agree with Erosider the present solution is not adequate for a strong Europe.
Only one solution is adequate for our future a close political union and a central fiscal policy for all the Euro zone.
Jophn
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54. At 12:37pm on 17 Dec 2010, Illogicbuster wrote:
"""No they aren't. The governments are BORROWING more money (see Greece, Ireland) and thus creating MORE debt. So, borrowing MORE (which is what they were doing BEFORE) is a change of habit? LOL"""
I like this discussion and the different aspects relating to the Europe project. However Illogicbuster there is a nasty side to this crisis which should not be under-estimated. And that side is the objectives of Global finance institutions which see the world in black and white. Or rather money they want and those who cough it up.
With a genuine debating reference, I recommend you read today’s Guardian article by Martin Kettle at this link.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/16/credit-rating-agencies-downgrade-spain
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62. At 2:37pm on 17 Dec 2010, zorba wrote:
"""While we are on the subject of the EU - how about a Europe wide campaign to get the commission to reduce their spending? As we are all suffering cuts why don't they show solidarity by taking a cut in wages and perks, cutting out a lot of the waste ( like the expense of moving to Strasburg every year ) and showing that they really represent the interests of the people of Europe. Now that would revive the Pan European Dream!!"""
I am with you on this. And knowing people who work around and in the European parliament I cannot agree more than you say.
However before jumping higher than we can shouldn't we concentate first within our states? Let me give you an example. You in France there is the Greek ambassador. OK. He lives in the embassy, his work is specific, he is paid a standard wage (huge one but well....) and all that. Now there is also the consul. His role is more of the administative issues and so on. I have recently heard of the details:
Full wage in Greece + second full wage in France + extras + other plus the age rises around 20,000 euros monthly. And that does not include the rent of a 150m² apartment in some of the best quarters of Paris (i.e. more than 3000 euros rent per month).
All for what? For a gnik-cuf little consul, a lowly civil servant ed-edrem. 20,000 euros per month! A sum that would sound large even for our anyaway brlliantly paid MPs! Who? A consult of a failed state. I hear that and I get dizzy. That is where your my family's money goes mate. So much wasted money, so much wasted value congatulating the least productive and downright the least worthy parts of our society and at the same time putting aside people that stuggle to educate themselves and built a carreer settling them with McJobs of 800 euros after 2-3 years of unemployment.
You are glad I never went down on politics. I would make a good dictator - Greece has lots of little small rocks that need some population to break some stones... so many I would send there to break stones, to the point that people would dream of Makronisos and Giaros.
Sorry but that is our real level. We shout for years "wake up" and everybody wakes up, slaps the alarm alarm and goes back to bed.
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The more I see & read about this mess, the clearer it is that these "leaders", for that read clowns, are making it up as they go along!
The euro funny money is DEAD & should be cremated on the bonfire of their vanities - of said clowns!
It will be the peasants like you & me who will end up paying - literally for this fisco - and I live in the UK. Cameron is naive, lying or stupid if he thinks that this will not affect the UK!
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# 66. At 3:41pm on 17 Dec 2010, euormartin wrote:
"I like this discussion and the different aspects relating to the Europe project. However Illogicbuster there is a nasty side to this crisis which should not be under-estimated. And that side is the objectives of Global finance institutions which see the world in black and white. Or rather money they want and those who cough it up.
With a genuine debating reference, I recommend you read today’s Guardian article by Martin Kettle at this link.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/16/credit-rating-agencies-downgrade-spain "
The Guardian's indignation that anyone, especially a credit rating agency, should question the credit worthiness of Eurozone countries is a joy to behold!
Martin Kettle wrote "The credit ratings agencies are leading a market assault on nations and peoples". No, they are not! They are relecting the assault that the Euro elite and the EU have made on the nations and peoples of europe by imposing an ill thoughout and disasterous common currency and "one size fits all" bank rate on grossly divergent economies! It was that policy that has led to the unfolding disaster we are witnessing in the Euro Zone, and the rating agencies are reflecting that in their assessments.
The Euro Zone worked badly in the good times before the credit crunch (eg the Euro and low interest rates fuelled the uncontrolled credit and property booms in Ireland and Spain) but it was the credit crunch that truly revealed the fundamental and insoluable weakness of the Euro Zone.
Martin Kettle complained that the credit rating agencies got it wrong in the boom times and clearly thinks they should also get it wrong in the bad times by saying Spain is a good credit risk when it clearly isn't a good risk! Well that would be bound to convince the markets, wouldn't it?
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#60
Nik;
Further:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12020200
EU leaders say they are looking at ways to narrow the economic performance gaps that threaten the eurozone's stability.
"We have to tackle the competitiveness gaps" in the 16-nation eurozone, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said."
Of course, no one knows what they actually mean to do, but thats the EU for you.
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Nik is correct. It is de rigeur to borrow during recessions. The idea is growth will cause collected taxes to increase solving the problem.
The Obama Admin. just passed the biggest stimulus in history for renewing the Bush er rich people tax cuts making the duplicitus republicans happy--whether it works or not ..we'll see.
But to punish Greece and Ireland for the lack of accountability in the EURO system is dangerous..all this panic and dread in Spain, Portugal..better the evil one knows--China--than a new one..Germany--not hating just stating..morality doesn't make policy economically sound.
ie, punishment--terroristic practices. Maybe a big famine will make people better--NOT.
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# 53. champagne_charlie
No, it is not all about the euro, it is definetely all about the economics of the EU members. In opposite, the euro was a great chance for the weaker economies to come up with the cheap money the eurozone provided.
Moreover, the Irish failed because they copied the British and Americans in deregulating their finacial markets (which spoiled by intention Frankfurt as a more regulated place indeed).
The German demand of more regulation was teared down by Britain and the USA several times in the 1990s and most significantly at the G8 Summit of Heiligendamm in 2007 (although Merkel was very calm there).
That there is nothing in the pot in Britain any more has been widely regarded.
But beside this is selfmade by adventurous financial politics, even Portugal, Spain and Italy contribute to help Greece and Ireland.
The Eurovision chapter you have written obviously after drinking too much of your champagne, Charlie!
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71 Stevenson writes:
"...better the evil one knows--China--than a new one..Germany--not hating just stating..morality doesn't make policy economically sound."
Havn't you got the wrong end of the stick here? Where do you think the blame lies for the mess we are in - I thought it was the American bankers! Why do you think China is the 'evil one knows' or indeed 'a new one ...Germany'? Doesn't make any sense to me.
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Stevenson, re "Continental Bath"
I hope you'll enjoy Don Ellis' "Turkish Bath" as much as (I'm sure) Nik the Greek will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygB4hPWyJig
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nautonier wrote:
Euro! Euro! Euro! - Crash! Crash! Crash!
Hooray! Set us free!
reminds of a Californian classic:
"Bomb, bomb, bomb
bomb, bomb Iran"
Or something like that. :-)
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"Just to give you an example:
Southstream. A project of vital importance for Bulgaria, Greece, Italy and Austria, yet a project that is against German interests (already connected by Northstream) and one that is hugely against British interests - them and especially the latter being willing to provoke tension and trouble to cancel the project.
How do you expect the lot to go on without having resolved first what they want?"
Simple, NIk. Opt for Nabucco.
[oops! It's going to benefit Turkey as well. :-)))]
BTW. There is NO Nordstream.
It's merely a project far from being finalized.
[not if chemical shells and mines burried on Baltic sea-bed along the planned route have anything to say about it]
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champagne_charlie wrote:
#51
dietrich;
In case you hadn't realised, Britain is skint, the pot is empty. It gets none of the alleged benefits of being in the single currency , yet you think it should pay when Eurozone economies fail?? You might like to downplay the issue of the Euro and try to blow this up into an EU-solidarity issue, but it wont work.
Fortunately UK is not a member ot the eurozone.
And during my recent trip to E. Europe I've found out that Poland (once enthusiastic about joining euro ASAP) is deliriously happy it hasn't, whereas Slovenes and Slovaks curse their lot.
While GeHmans dream about returning to their beloved DM. ASAP.
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WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
I stopped voting "by heart" long time ago.
Alice, do you think that if you and our friends vote against Mr. Putin for president during your next election he won't be re-elected? :-)))))))
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margaret howard wrote: "Where do you think the blame lies for the mess we are in - I thought it was the American bankers!"
Nope, it seems it was European GOVERNMENTS lying for years about the real size of their deficit and national debt.
P.S. Hope you are safe and warm. BTW. How is it there in Scotland?
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79 powermeer writes:
P.S. Hope you are safe and warm. BTW. How is it there in Scotland?
Lovely. My type of weather. It's the heat I don't like. We holiday in the Highlands or the Baltics rather than Spain or the Med. And what can beat a tramp across the moors on a cold crisp day?
PS I still think it will be the dollar to go down first rather than the euro if indeed this so-called panic isn't just so much hot air created by the chattering classes! As for lying by the European Governments - nothing can beat the lies by the American governments in recent years regarding 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq and its citizens threatened by some medieval hill tribesmen in Afghanistan and no doubt Iran in the near future. All these lovely new weapons - they must have somewhere to try them out. Just how many people in the region have now died in retaliation for 9/11? The biblical eye for an eye was mild in comparison. I'm just wondering what sort of grudges the children of todays victims will hold in revenge.
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Alice, do you think that if you and our friends vote against Mr. Putin for president during your next election he won't be re-elected? :-)))))))
___________
Year 2075. The first intra-star expedition is returning home to the Earth. When the ship enters the zone of the reliable signal detection, a Russian and an American switch on the news. Russians listens and flops down to the floor unconcious. The American gets intrigued and puts the channel on the re-play, and hears: ... President Putin was met in the airport by the government delegation headed by Prime minister Medvedev ...:o))))))))))))))
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BTW. There is NO Nordstream.
It's merely a project far from being finalized.
_____________
If something looks like a tube on the sea-bottom, and behaves like a tube - I think we are happy enough.
You can call it ? say, "a daisy" ;o))))))) powermeer, if that makes you happier :o)))))
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margaret howard wrote:
79 powermeer writes:
P.S. Hope you are safe and warm. BTW. How is it there in Scotland?
Lovely. My type of weather. It's the heat I don't like. We holiday in the Highlands or the Baltics rather than Spain or the Med. And what can beat a tramp across the moors on a cold crisp day?
That's a true Scottish spirit, Margaret. Bravo!
[I'll drink some Glenmorangie to that :-)]
Perhaps you should change places with Alice who's started to grumble despite claiming earlier that Russians don't complain about cold unless it gets below zero Kelvin.
P.S. Since you've mentioned Baltics...
Do you now that during the last mini-Ice Age both Poles and Germans would travel in horse-driven sleighs to Sweden and Norway across the solid frozen Baltic, with Jews keeping inns opened in the middle?
[stuffed with both, vodka and aquavit to the hilt, of course]
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Re #81
Alice, you know what?
Unfortunately you may be right.
P.S. I hope you're warm and have coal (wood?) to heat your datcha/apartment with.
[Unless you have a special connection to that other Medvedev: GAZPROM Chairman. :-)))]
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Re #82
Alice, there's no tube. [under the Baltic Sea]
Unless you're referring to a tubeworm.
Perhaps in a couple of years time, as your Muslims say, Insh Allah... :-)
[Before EU switches to nuclear, solar and wind power.]
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Wrong. It is being laid down, into the sea. Daily, piece by piece connected.
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Gas is cheaper heating than electricity. I don't know why. We have no lack of nuclear power stations around, St. Petersburg just sits on one ;o), for that matter. And still all here want gas.
Though, yes, I prefer to heat dacha house by electricty. Switch on switch off, clean. Only it's enormous bills, will pay the debts for Oct-Nov in the dacha till spring.
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Mr. Berlusconi's supporters should be happy :-)
The Israeli and Italian air forces conducted two weeks of joint manoeuvres in late November aimed at increasing regional co-operation amid the possibility of renewed conflict in the near future. Israel sent a number of F-15 and F-16 fighter jets as well as a C-130 Hercules transport aircraft to participate in the manoeuvres, which were held over the Italian island of Sardinia in the Mediterranean Sea
[first posted to http://idr.janes.com - 07 December 2010]
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Re #86
Not wrong, Alice. Read again.
I'ts BEING laid.
Ask me again when it's finished and the Russian (?) gas actually flows through the pipe.
Otherwise Nordstream is simply a tape worm [sucking up resources]
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Well, powermeer, sea bottom has its limits :o), and when it's being laid it ends being laid at some point. Unless you think we are going to continue it paranoidally once it surfaces in Germany and go on with the tube :o))))) stretching on the ground :o))))))
In fact, no even conditions for that, as Germany builds from their side and eventually both tubies will meet some place in the middle of the sea.
With gas Nordstream is provided for ten times, it's southern quarters and the South tubie that depend on other sources.
It is not all the same in Russia where to start from. It's a big place. Supplies for these 2 tubies are not inter-changeable, as the stretch of land between the sources, to cover it up by another tube :o) will be so long that the advantages of the projects will be lost. It's all for money made, all the participants count on profit.
To Nord stream - Nordstreamie sources; to Southstream - Southstremie sources, in short.
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What is it speaking in you. What a Polish-American exploidable combination. Some Rambo meerkat ;o))
I absolutely agree with Margaret Howard dear Margaret, who spoke about "shivers" :o)))) going down the spine of Europeans at the sight of hammer and sickle. (or a tube being hammered together ;o)))
Dear Margaret I am of the same opinion that we should have NEVER crossed our borders in the 2ndWW and never spilled over beyond to Europe.
Mistake of millenium.
Consider the advantages - everyone would be happy now.
Even the EUprisoner blogger - there wouldn't be any EU to fight against, as there would never be even the initial reason for its formation - while Europe would be nicely united around the German mark long time ago and not now only.
The myth of the "advantages" of the American army over the Red Army would never root. If we stopped at clearing Germans out of USSR borderline and strictly up to it and then stroke with Hitler a deal of war stopping.
We'd have saved 5 million people - which we badly lack since those times, as only the best die in the front line, as is known - the cowards somehow always stay behind. Russian pool genetical combination would have been so much better now - when we need it, by the way, being depleted of our best people throughout the wolf-like 20th century.
Sure, we wouldn't have enjoyed the love and gratitude of our allies Europe and the USA in the post-war years :o))))))) - and to this day - but you know what - I think we would be able to live with that.
US space war programmes would be no head-ache for Russia ever - as German say devices would be taking US "devices" out from the sky like pea-nuts :o)))))
I somehow think the whole cold war would go far less problematic :o))))) with the USA never getting near the prime German eh, designers ;o)))))
If Hitler got USSR out of his hair, say, about 7 month earlier than when he took a doze of cyanide - I think he'd fall down to the altar of all gods ever available possible, and prayed to all at once in gratitude - to the Catholic, Protestant, Russian Orthodox and Allah and Budda - to all at once!
Since we don't remember the winter 44-45 as an easy stroll - but rather as a strain on the limit of impossible for humans - and beyond this "impossible' line - I even think a TWO months coffee-break for Germany - without the Eastern Front "concern" would be enough to re-gain and restore the position.
The last, but not the least :o) - Poland would not be pecking Russian liver the next 60 years for Katyn - for there wouldn't be such a country, in the first place. As far as I remember 25% of pre-war Poland in 1944 were safely exactly in the same place where it is still and now -in Belorussia, Ukraine and Lithuania. And how would Poland convince Hitler, the USA and Britain that it absolutely has to get the rest 75% of it from Germany - I leave it to the 'enquiring minds'.
And, bingo - no powermeer to peck my liver either in 2010.
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