Berlusconi's last days?
In ancient times the augurs would have been consulted. The ruins have been trembling. Chunks have fallen off the Colosseum. The House of the Gladiators at Pompeii has collapsed. The wall surrounding the House of the Moralist has buckled.
Everyone is searching for signs. Even the Italian President, Giorgio Napolitano, opined that you would need a crystal ball to know whether these are the last days of the great impresario, of Il Cavaliere, the self-styled knight who has come to dominate Italian politics.
Silvio Berlusconi will make a fight of it. Revelations are dismissed as "trash". Accusers are branded "traitors". On Tuesday he faces two votes. In the Senate they will vote on a motion of confidence that he will almost certainly win. A no-confidence vote in the Chamber of Deputies, however, will be much closer.The word is that it may come down to one vote. It's that close. If Berlusconi were to lose he would have to resign. The Italian president would explore whether anyone else could hold a working coalition together. If not there would be elections. Berlusconi could of course stand again, but a comeback would be much harder.
Rome is awash with intrigue - that MPs have been offered government jobs or even help with their mortgages to support the Italian leader. One opposition politician complained it was humiliating, like watching "a cattle market". Another, Pier Luigi Bersani, said "a crime is being committed in parliament". It is a world of deal-making and horse-trading in which Silvio Berlusconi excels and no-one is counting him out. If everyone who said they would vote against him did, he would be finished. But Roman politics isn't like that. Strange alliances emerge from late-night meetings.
As for Berlusconi, he relishes the fight. He lashes out at what he calls the lies and slander. One of his papers has shown pictures of what they call "traitors"; those who in recent times have deserted Il Cavaliere. "For several months," says Berlusconi, "public life has been paralysed by an irresponsible political crisis". He will begin this struggle to save his job with a speech to the Chamber of Deputies.
His opponents see it differently. They see a coalition that has cracked - weakened by defections, rivalries and in-fighting. A split with a former ally, Gianfranco Fini, cost him his parliamentary majority.
The Italian leader has survived countless scandals. But then came along Ruby the heartbreaker. She was a 17-year-old dancer who says she attended one of Berlusconi's parties. He apparently lavished her with gifts and money and when she got into trouble with the police he intervened, saying she was a relative of the Egyptian leader. This time it wasn't just the girls. The questions were about abuse of power. Other women like Nadia Macri have emerged, who said of one of the parties "the girls were young and it didn't sit easily with me".
And the gaffes continued. When questioned about the young women he quipped "at least I'm not gay". Everyone in Italy now knows what bunga-bunga means. According to girls who were at his parties, this was a nude ritual that involved the Italian leader. When, earlier, some Italian women got together and said all this offended them Berlusconi retorted "How can anyone say I don't love women?"
Many Italians, however, say they are uninterested in stories about their leader's private life.
And then came along Wikileaks, with messages questioning Berlusconi's close relationship with the Russian leader Vladimir Putin. An American diplomat described the two men as "tycoon oligarchs". Berlusconi's partying left him "feckless, vain and ineffective". And the American diplomatic cables raised suspicions that Berlusconi was personally profiting out of energy deals with Russia.
The US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, tried to offer a helping hand by describing him as "one of America's best friends". But the polls suggest Italy is tiring of the leader who promised to reform the country.
So what is likely to happen? Berlusconi is helped by the opposition. Its leaders lack conviction or a programme at a time of economic crisis. It has enabled Berlusconi to play the stability card, to insist that "apres moi, le deluge". So with the bond dealers watching Italy closely Berlusconi's friends are saying this is the wrong time to change leaders. They say that Italy has escaped the worst of the financial crisis and an early election would be unsettling and unpopular. A budget of austerity cuts has just been passed, but needs to be implemented.
If on Tuesday, however, his majority is razor-thin it could still prompt early elections in April. Gianfranco Fini says that "if the no-confidence motion does not pass we will have a government that's just trying to survive. That's not stability. That's vegetating."
Whatever the outcome there are people predicting these are Berlusconi's last days. "The one-man show is over," said the powerful businessman Luca Cordero di Montezemolo. A leading commentator, Beppe Severgnini, said "it is an old Italian tradition that the tenor is idolised until people start booing him".
No-one should underestimate the extent to which Silvio Berlusconi dominates Italian politics. He owns three major commercial TV channels and a cluster of papers and magazines. When he is in power he has responsibility for the state broadcasting organisations. He has shaped prime-time TV with its parade of show-girls that are known as veline "scraps of paper". Women's groups say the television culture treats them as "sex objects". Without any sense of irony a former topless model, Mara Carfagna, was appointed as Minister for Equal Opportunities. Then the opposition claim he has evaded charges of corruption by undermining the judiciary.
More than any other current European leader Berlusconi has defined the culture of his country. If he goes Italy changes.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~44~RS~)
I'm 
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Ah...Italian politics.
It's things like this that make Europe interesting. Stange....but interesting.
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I met Silvio Berlusconi in the Romanian capital Bucharest in 1998. Even the corupt battle hardened Romanians raised eyebrows to this guy. Politics, the Vatican, bond vigilanties, Mafia and Co. Seems like a good time to dump them all.
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I do not like Mr.Berlusconi bat i do belief is passionate to keep Italy as
nation is problem is the north lega which like to divide Italy in two separate state the north regions of Trentino -Venato - Lombardia and Piemonte this is not acceptable if Mr.Berlusconi want to survive to the end of this term e need to form a government of unit with the PD and marginalize the north lega and stop to make comment about the Italian President and judge.
If e do the above will be remember as great leader.
John
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Some would say Berlusconi is a symptom of Italy's problems, not the cause.
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I don't opine he is interesting at all. More or less the same as majority of European leaders today. His show off has probably been keeping him on the surface, slightly above the average. But it could not last forever. His actions in the realm of politics reveal the man. There is no statesman like Adenauer, De Gaulle, etc., in today's Europe. Democracy is the only cure to those who cannot beat the average.
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Compared to the recent past, this is a stable Italian government. Italian politics require a certain degree of theater. Regardless of what others may like, this is an Italian issue and an issue for Italians to resolve, one way or the other. Southern Europe has a different culture than Northern Europe, it is different, not better or worse. In Britain the royals are poked with a stick, in Italy they hit you in the mouth with a statue....emotional people.
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You refer to Berlusconi as having 'undermined' the judiciary. Are you being diplomatic here? Do you mean he has paid judges to help him evade justice? Do you mean he has made laws, legally in parliament, to limit his liability? In any case this is the most serious accusation against Berlusconi. You should have made more of it. The rest is tittle tattle, intrigue and temporary economic reality. The truth might even be a condemnation of the Italian people who have, in case folk have forgotten, voted him into power 3 times. More likely is that the electoral system precludes individuals in favour of parties, unless you are Berlusconi. The system is at fault and the people are unable to change it. The system and its beneficiaries are the problem and the sustainers of paralysis. Obsession with Sexy Silvio is a journalistic error.
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I've been waiting for this day for close to 15 years now, it's so close that I cannot even imagine it.
But I know that I will not be able of enjoying it because of some very basic issues:
- Italy has weathered the crisis pretty well until now; this because of some good work from the finance minister but also because fortunately Italy is not Greece, Portugal or Spain. Italy's industrial power is still there but if the governemnt colapses this could be the excuse for speculators to start attacking the country and with noone to withstand the wiplash it could get difficult.
- Berlusconi has tied himself with Putin and Gheddafi but, as much as it pains me to say so, the deals struck with these guys are very good for the country. I understand why the US and some countries in northern europe (not Germany and France though) might be worried about this but simply because it is undermining their influence in those regions.
- In terms of fight with the various mafia, this government has surpisingly done very well; they need to keep at it and not relax the attitude for even a second
- At the moment there is noone that could fill the gap left by Berlusconi and I am afraid that Lega Nord might profit from this crisis
I don't know how this will end; I am afraid though that as happy I'll be of seeing Berlusconi leave, I am afraid that it couldn't have come at a worst time.
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More than likely Berlusca will still be on the scene even if he does lose the vote on Tuesday.
There is no one on the left that can command the loyalty of a left wing block of parties to help oust the current group out of power, Fini's party is too small and Cassini and Di Pietro's parties wont join unless all their terms are met.
Add to that Berlusconi's total domination of the media in the country, he will win the next election yet again....
La commedia non e finita ancora... ;)
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If I may respond to ghostofsichuan, this is not exclusively an Italian issue. As a member of the Euro Currency Zone there are responsibilities and consequences outside of the borders of the State but within the borders of the EU. Part of Italy's sovereignty rests abroad at the European Central Bank. In addition, both for irony and actual comment, the next PM could be the Governor of the local branch of the European Central Bank, Mario Draghi in a 'Technical Government'. Italy, as for other countries which have either hidden or ignored Euro Zone compliance, might be in for a cold shower. I hope not, but the point is that the water temperature is controlled outside of Italy.
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In Italy we have a Prime Minister who is using his office as a means to keep out of prison, and make as much personal profit possible at the same time, by making changes in the law to favour him, by corrupting,by cutting shady deals and by consorting with the mafia. He should have been convicted 13 years ago... I am not Italian but I have lived here in North Italy for the last 20 years, and I still do not understand the reasoning behind the many people who support him, especially among the young...
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If Berlusconi does fall, two separate questions arise. Do we see an end to relatively stable government and a return to shifting alliances and changing coalitions which make effective government virtually impossible and the descent into economic chaos more likely? Would it also mark the end of his immunity from from due process and the real possibility that finally, he might the held to account?
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Berlusconi, the real deal with the 'moderate' people:
http://betweentwosouths.blogspot.com/2010/12/berlusconi-speech-to-senate-real-deal.html
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Will Silvio Berlusconi’s centre-right government survive?
Commentators lean towards NO.
The 630-member lower house leans towards CLOSE.
The PM himself says he is: “serene and confident”.
Ms Mongherini (very, very pregnant): “Leaving aside my vote for a second, does anyone really think that a government that is hanging on the date of birth of a little girl can be stable?”
Most likely abstentions:
1. Gianfranco Fini, who as speaker of the house,
2. the 2 German-speaking MPs from the autonomous region of Tyrol.
A majority is unlikely because 34 deputies joined Mr Fini last month on the opposition benches. Their new Party called: "Future and Liberty", but four members looked into the future and took the liberty of reconciling.
Mr Fini is supposed to have a TV interview this Sunday (in which he will accuse Mr Berlusconi of holding on to power only to avoid going to court to face two trials for corruption and fraud).
Several other opposition deputies have also stated they might not support the motion of no-confidence
- Domenico Scipoliti and Antonio Razzi of the Italy of Values (IDV) party, and
- Bruno Cesario and Massimo Calearo, both Democrats.
This in turn has led to accusations of vote-buying. Italian newspapers quoted Mr Razzi as saying that he had been offered bribes to support the government. Rome magistrates Giovanni Ferrara & Alberto Vaperna were due to meet to review the accusations. Antonio Di Pietro, IDV leader and a former anti-graft prosecutor, declared that he would present material to stop what he called “the shameless buying of parliamentary votes..."
My prediction: When the dust settles, "one of America's best friends", will still be in the saddle.
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GH:: "On Tuesday he faces two votes. In the Senate they will vote on a motion of confidence that he will almost certainly win. A no-confidence vote in the Chamber of Deputies, however, will be much closer."
Since most Italians males would love to be just like Berlusconi I will risk a prediction that B. will surive once again.
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4. Grant wrote:
"Some would say Berlusconi is a symptom of Italy's problems, not the cause."
This is undoubtedly true .... but while it is necessary to treat the cause, one should also alleviate the symptoms! (Lemsip anyone)
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GH: "Everyone in Italy now knows what bunga-bunga means"
Do avid Mr. Assange supporters know what that means?
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13. At 3:24pm on 13 Dec 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
If Berlusconi does fall, two separate questions arise. Do we see an end to relatively stable government and a return to shifting alliances and changing coalitions which make effective government virtually impossible and the descent into economic chaos more likely? Would it also mark the end of his immunity from from due process and the real possibility that finally, he might the held to account?
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I think you will see a return to the bad old days of short-lived coalitions that fall after 13-18 months; Italian politicians tend to fall out rather quickly with each other very quickly even if they are part of the same ruling group of parties (witness the two administrations headed by Prodi - one torpdeoed by D'Alema in the italian version of the Blair/Brown project and the second time when the coalition was made up of so many small parties (as a result of Berlusconi changing the electoral rules just before the last time he lost knowing full well that somebody would rock the boat along the way) it was bound to fall as soon as someone threw a hissy fit.
The left at the moment has no credible champion and the right, apart from Berlusconi, has Fini and the Northern League...not much to choose from there then I guess.
In the short term, to avoid the speculators from having a go, the best option for the country would be for the President (Napolitano) to call for a technocrat administration to be put in power during the campaign, similar to that was seen under Azeglio Ciampi, headed by either Tremonti (the current finance minister) or Draghi ( the head of the bank of Italy).
This is unlikely though as the Italian politicians would hate to be shown up as incompetent (god forbid!) as they were when Ciampi sucessfully guided the country for about 2 years when it was last tried out...
As for the immunity part, does not really matter if he has it or not, these guys never go to prison over there....the judicial system over there is so slow and bureaucratic (and crooked)that you can string a case out over a decade or two and the defendant can die of old age before they reach a verdict....
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"Clarence House has refused to comment on reports the Duchess was poked with a stick."
This post, quoting BBC News verbatim has been removed.
Although a poster refuesed to touch a subject with a 10 foot pole.
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"American diplomatic cables raised suspicions that Berlusconi was personally profiting out of energy deals with Russia."
Forget Berlusconi.[small fish]. Can you spell 'Gerhard Schroeder'?
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Re #15
"My prediction: When the dust settles, "one of America's best friends", will still be in the saddle."
My prediction:
When the dust settles "one of Putin's best friends" will still be in the saddle. :-)
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18 PMK
"Since most Italians males would love to be just like Berlusconi I will risk a prediction that B. will surive once again."
Yes, you're right. It is important to perpetuate out-moded stereotypes. Well done.
But as you obviously do not like hot teenage women and wild parties can we infer that you are some kind of "girlie-meerkat"???? (apologies to the Governator!)
Enquiring minds want to know
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26 - RomeStu
22 - powermeerkat
Enquiring minds are also awaiting enlightenment as to the connection between the Duchess, her house and Berlusconi. Unless . . . No!
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For the rest of EU, for Mr Putin and for Mr Gadaffi, Berlusconi is the best representative of Italy. Their teamwork would not be so exellent without him. He is a steady partner at least. One government of half-year duration, on the other hand, is not exactly a stimulus to the creditors to exibit enthusiasm. And his country is up to one's ears in debt.
Therefore it is higly realistic to say he will stay.
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Two big mob countries, Italy and Russia. It's good that Putin and Berlusconi are in good terms with each other so they can build healthier Europe together. Or what?
What the heck, we have had Nero, Napoleon, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Stalin and many many more leaders in Europe. We people will survive and history will tell the facts: how big or small they were.
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This is an accurate prehistorical (like the Ruby case) article of the Italian facts from the Italian leftist perspective...Of course i don't think that this article is been written by you Hewitt except for your last words (the wrong ones):
--✄-- if he goes Italy changes. --✄--
To Italians will take more than 15 years to change the well rooted "Berlusconi carlito's political way" of intervening...if ever this eternal "Nosferatu" will go in retirement
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31. At 7:26pm on 13 Dec 2010, Pate wrote:
"""Two big mob countries, Italy and Russia."""
So how on earth is it possible that mob countries like Russia and Italy produced alone more culture and civilisation than all the rest of Europe (Greece not included)?
If it is that I would rather stick to mob countries rather than have ordered countries like Germany or Britain try to give the good example...
I despise this patronisation.
End of story, put it once and for all in your mind: Italy is no more mob than Britain and no more mafia than Germany. And Russia is no less democratic than USA. It is in the minds of people who cannot accept the other that all that occurs. The next time you pretend to care about the several 10s of Russian journalists murdered in Russia think about the 10,000s of Gulf War veterans and their children suffering a slow death due to the mysterious and undiagnosed (since doctors who study it are punished by.... law - what law?) illness they contracted out of the chemicals tested upon them during the war (it is said to had been the vaccines but who may know?). Next time you think that Italian mafias rule the country think of the German corporations that are so uttlerly corrupt as to need to bribe even to sell luxury cars that should anyway find their way in the market - so one can only imagine what they do in the case of large industrial products.
I am sick and tired of people pretending to play the "clean hands". Let alone America, especially in a Europe were clean cut countries like Ireland are found in one night owning - in relation to size & type of country - more debt than the generally acknowledged as utterly corrupt Greece. Use some logic please, some basic logic.
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"34. At 8:23pm on 13 Dec 2010, Nik wrote: ...So how on earth is it possible that mob countries like Russia and Italy produced alone more culture and civilisation than all the rest of Europe"
Don't burn your hats, Nik. Culture and mob have little in common. Civilization and organized crime even less. Mob countries do usually have more crime than non mob countries. Just wonder why, or do anybody, wonder?
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I haven't heard of Russians going on strike in Italian factories located in Russia making white goods - washing machines and dish-washing machines and refridgerators; apparently the owners find common language with the employees somehow. While Ford is perennially in strike :o)))), powermeer. I judge Putin's relations with Italy as very good, actually, thanks to those 'private' deals both leaders are accused of/rumoured to have, or in spite of them - doesn't matter. The two countries' relations are good. See absolutely no scare of some "mob" culture spreading out from Italian fridges into Russian kitchens ;o)))), think they are quite harmless ;o)))))) Have no idea what useful Italy has of us but also think whatever it is - it does not excert negative influence somehow in-built ? in it ;o))))))
The underlying reason of good countries' relations, though, I think is not Putin and Berlusconi, but cultural understanding. Fact is Italians were here with their factories right after the perestroyka among the first foreign businesses, when there was no one knew the word "Putin'. That they haven't left after, in disappointment, and are still here and growing - in this can be Putin-Berlosconi understanding behind.
Italians were poor in Europe before. They understand what it is to be poor, they understand us, have compassion. And they see their Italian architects valued here, cherished here, who built things in Moscow and St. Petersburg, in Italian baroque, long time ago. Russians aren't the people to snob at another country for being poor, in short, because we know all this comes and goes and art stays.
Some kind of understanding in that, while with some European countries we don't have even smaller common "bridges".
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Yo Nik
As a Southern European you seem to have little regard for your northern cousins. Well......I can sympathize with you in a way. Sometimes I feel that way about my northern cousins.
However, I ran across this link the other day and must share it with you. How can you low rate the English when they continually come up stuff like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ssXJtzFOjA&feature=player_embedded
Go on and have a laugh. It'll be good for your soul.
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#12 Huaimek
Addressing myself , I am not surprised that a number of posts , like mine were moderated out . In my case , I state a fact that is common knowledge in Italy , but is deemed defamatory by the BBC moderators .
Never mind , I will rephrase my comment and try again .
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#21 Claudius_Secundus
This comment says it all , including his reference to the judiciary in the last paragraph .
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To the Italians here, an extract from a Karlo Goldoni's old play "Servant of two masters", about Truffaldino from Bergamo and his declaration of love to Smeraldina. Colombina? I don't think the tranlation is required here, as all is absolutely understandable internationally just look at their faces and it's clear what he says ;o)))) and what she replies ;o))) in this Commedia del Arte.
Just a Russian Colombina ;o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLpz8-WObtA&feature=related
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Many posters here understand what Berlusconi means to the governance and stability of Italy . Like #11 PDB I have lived in Italy a number of years . Procecutors have been trying to procecute Berluconi for a number of years . Effectively , in Italy you are guilty until proven innocent .
The accusation is as good as the condemnation . Where a prime minister is concerned , the effect can have far reaching political results .
The Italian parliament is made up of about 16 different political parties , that form groups , with the government or with the opposition .
Italian political parties are vastly divergent in their policies ; so forming a government , pointing in one direction is very difficult . it takes a strong man to hold these parties together for the benefit of the country . Berlusconi is a man who can do that .
In the event that Berlusconi has to stand down , to allow somebody else to take his position heading a rightwing government ; I do not see anyone with the necessary strength to hold an Italian government together . Gianfranco Fini is highly thought of from an intelectual point of view , but I do not believe he would succeed as Prime Minister , because he is not tough enough .
In the event of a general election , it is possible that Berlusconi could win again . Italian people do not mind about his colourful private life ; many Italian men would do the same if they could afford .
In the event that a centre left group of parties form a government , there is no assurance that they will be able to govern . Conflicting socialist agendas are likely to be their undoing .
If Italy isn't held together on a tight rein , there is a danger of the economy failing and an eventual default .
I too have been critical of Italy's alliances with Lybia and Serbia , but I believe Berlusconi's alliance with Russia and frienship with Putin is both good for Italy and Europe . Russia is an emerging power with huge natural resourses . President Medvedev is going to enormous pains to put the Soviet past behind them . The cold war is long since over and it is best for western Europe and Russia to embrace one another for the benefit of both .
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#41 Webaliceinwonderland
Thanks that is a lovely film clip , what beautiful acting too .
You certainly lighten up the political seriousness .
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Nik,
I'm sorry to lash out and hit you ...I was guessing about who it was who was the bad -- behaving -- person who had been removing posts -- and it is of course, not you.
Your posts are -- to me -- refreshing -- sometimes very long but with much it seems love and effort of the writing.
So, I was just guessing and should have just said oh well "tomorrow is another day.."
Im sorry to have accused you of being "the One" who was referring everyone...I tried to have it removed...hope it will be someday soon (suggestion?)
:)) Remorseful and Contrite :))
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RomeStu,
If he is he is ummm ...not to be abused
but what judgement are you ..exactly..trying to make ????
Serious faux pas ..end of story...
Gay doesn't mean "compromised" and he is in MY book *****"more a tolerator/friend of rather than"*****...and I should know with my
*gaydar* :)))
And I'm proud not to have reacted more strongly ...notice I did not refer you as some ..might..
:)))
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tho point taken, myyy..
people ARE sensitive--good to know huhh???
long day...no synapses, except a few...working
hope all works out--
And, I have to say most of these leaders insulted in
Wikileaks are probably happy that the egg is actually on America's face, not really Their leader faces
And, yes, Italy loves big culture rich nations--I've noticed.
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Over the years I have mellowed toward signore Berlusconi ; not because he has improved but because the Italian 'left' has turned out to be so useless . I still wish he were held accountable for everything , I just doubt that there is sufficient Italian democracy to give him and his polity the treatment they deserve . Italy is a member of the EU ? Bad outlook for you all .
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MaudDib,
We had a frozen weekend here in the borderline Southern state of Missouri.
And, my excitement was Christmas shopping--dread, then doing, then relief, then napping.
But, of course, we got just the cold, not the snow of the North. Yes, the Northerners are so full of themselves and never deign to mention the South unless its ..insults...nice to be ignored, sometimes by Them.
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45 stevenson
either you are being over sensitive, or I am losing my sense of humour.
My comment to powermeerkat was not homophobic (as you seem to be implying - or if it was it was unintentional) but was a response to his crass generalisation that all Italian men would wnat to be like Berlusconi, in reference to his penchant for "beautiful women" and his comment that he (Berlusconi) was not gay.
IT WAS A JOKE!!!
However much Berlusconi can be seen as the only politician strong enough to hold together the pitiful squabbling parties of the Italian parliament, it is also unbelievable that he remains untouchable no matter what scandals emerge. I am not one to believe every bad word against him, but if even 5% of it were true in most other countries he would be out of office, and possibly spending some time "al fresco" as the locals might say!
Anyway, thank you for not refering the post - already lost a few on this thread, but I suspect it is more the BBC lawyers being risk averse over various B stories, than any one poster maliciously wiping other views.
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Difference between North and South is 400 years (King Henry VIII)? Or less (Keiser Wilhelm)!? The most eccentric figure in the dawn of WWI, Keiser Wilhelm, was situated in the North. (The most interesting figure, on the contrary, Franz Kafka, was then anonimous.) And many more examples standing in a row towards modern times. Better not to mention them.
When we come to the subject of show-off there is, in fact, very little difference between North and South. Couldn't it be there is no difference in any "serious" subject as well? For example banking sector. Between Florence and North 400 years?
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38. At 00:24am on 14 Dec 2010, MaudDib wrote:
"""Yo Nik
As a Southern European you seem to have little regard for your northern cousins. Well......I can sympathize with you in a way. Sometimes I feel that way about my northern cousins."""
I do not have any little regard. When I said Italy and Russia have produced more civilisation than the collection of Germany, France, Holland and Britain I meant it though. Half of what these countries did was merely the continuation of the Italian Renaissance (albeit less beautiful - afterall in 100 years, the industrial revolution occured with its particular effects on culture) while whatever Russians did, in cultural aspects, they did it better and in a more profound way. But that can be up to personal choices, Italians and Russians culturally are in our radius so I am naturally more attracted by their cultures than by the German or Dutch culture. For a Dutch, German or British culture might be resemble of higher value. I am thus not strict on such intangible things that are not measurables.
However, in general I speak of contrasting interests. And these are measurables. While much of our interests as Europeans are common, a part of some of our (southerners) basic interests - speaking on our side - are finally not easily compatible with the interests of the north european block (Germany, let alone Britain - each from its very own perspective). But that has nothing to do with any regard of mine towards northerners.
"""Go on and have a laugh. It'll be good for your soul."""
I never said I do not laugh with British humour. Do not know if the video is an exemplary part of it, but I appreciate some good British humour. What I do not appreciate is patronising tones like "Italians are mafias", "Russians are mobs" and other such. Well in Italy they call it mafia and in Germany "corporatism" - so what is the difference? German corporatism at the end has funded up to today more corruption that Italian mafia around the world. If they call it Russian mob, in Britain or USA will call it "urban criminal rates". If journalists are attacked in Russia, in USA doctors that wish to examine a massive phenomenon of war veterans and their childrens' slow deaths. I do not propose to people to feel more safe in Moscow than in Washington or something - all I am saying to people is to no jump higher than they should and never say big words.
Now my main questioning is this:
Mes.27, 28, 33, 36:
Ok mes 27 contained 1-2 funny words (not at all offensive but whatever...) but in the rest 3 what happened and they were censored? Was it perhaps the fact that I explained why there is all that fuss now with Silvio?
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... so I as I was saying in the deleted messages,
The key problem (just like in the Greek case of Karamanlis, nothing similar to Berlusconi however) is that Berlusconi wishes to open collaborations with the Russians too. But there is more to it, much more than you think - there is also the recent openings of Berlusconi to Libya.
Russia? Libya? Eh? Petrol? Gas? Nice one!
So Berlusconi wants for Italy to be provided with both Russian and Libyan gas? Well what a crime! Too bad Berlusconi wants to profit personally... really how much more naif people can be? Berlusconi owns one of the hugests industrial groups in Europe and the biggest in Italy. It goes withoutsaying that the deals must benefit his business and if the business is all about the import of cheap & standard energy without risks and fluctuations it is mathematic equation that they benefit Italy too, let alone that if eg. Finiinvest is benefited, Italians are benefited automatically.
So saying Berlusconi profits personally out of these is really an empty phrase - if he profits personally out of these then 40 million Italians too will profit personally for this and since all Italians are mafia-macho guys they do not deserve that so they had better stick to buying Saoudi oil and bring by ship liquified petroleum gas, isn't it? Well that is the idea!
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Huaimek, @43 "You certainly lighten up the political seriousness."
Yes, I thought it's about time ;o), as passions fly so high in this blog ;o)
Of actors that was Konstantin Rajkin, now an aged serious director of a theatre :o), but when younger - a concentration of energy live and he is an enormous talent multiplied by enormous talent, took after his father, also an actor, it's a theatre dynasty here. And Natalia Gundareva; she "starred" in like, may be 40-50 films here, very Russian.
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What a surprise....the old goat survived both counts....now who would have thought that then eh?!......
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As Claudius_Secundus already point out: Berlusconi won both votes of confidence.
The time has come to give up on Italy.
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Re #26 RomeStu "But as you obviously do not like hot teenage women and wild parties"
Yo are part(ly) correct: I don't like wild parties. :)
[nope, I am not a lumberjack, either. But I'm OK.]
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nik you are being unfair and too complimentary to Russians over-estimating our "in-put into civilisation". We have scratched the surface here and there, of ? "All Things Important"?:o))) and "The Meaning of Life" :o))))), at places carved in deeper holes, at places - quite shallow. Like everyone else.
Note that all standardly praised for "knowing more" standardly :o0)))) I would say reply that "I don't know nil; looking back at all these years behind the only thing I can say that now I can better appreciate how exactly little I know' :o))))
I think our "deeper holes' are done in humanitarian fields
Lots of time! you know ;o)))))) saved not bothering about money ;o)))))))
and technical things.
First banks appeared in Russia 500 yrs later than in Europe elsewhere ;o), the very idea!;o)
Technically - nothing can help us! ;o))))) no point to bother either :o))))) Some may say that invention of asphalt roads imroved the life of humanity greatly - but not here, as you know ;o))))
The technology of How to Dig a Deep Hole in the Frozen Ice to obtain oil and gas, may also be considered. But then that's gas for others, Russian towns and villages do not have gas pipes. So I question the use of even this technological break-through :o))))), when speaking of Russia.
Only electricity invention is one un-questionable thing that helped Russians technologically in the past 1200 years. All the rest are cosmetic and insignificant trifles.
A log house is still the healthiest house to live in as it breathes and adjusts the temperature and humidity like the best climate control possible. Water from the well is still the best to drink preferred over one travelling by plastic tubes and in plastic bottles. Snow by your house is still cleaned by spade :o))))) But then of course it's convenient I can write to you direct without bothering to send a letter with a horse courier via Riga :o)))) or dropping an occasional bottle into the ocean. But then what clever can I write? :o))))) not a necessity clear. and won't work without electricity either ;o(
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52. Nik
Nobody makes fun of the English better than the English. They really don't need any help. We Americans try it ourselves but we don't have the gift of the English. I do think the ability to make fun of one's self is a good trait. Why? I don't know........ I would feel much better about China if they would just lighten up for goodness sake.
I notice that Portugal is doing a "Robert Johnson" with the Chinese. We've already done ours.
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It is not only the problem of Berulusconi.From west to east from BERLUSCONI to Nehru,MGR,Natarajan of Tamilnadu all of their personal life is tanted one as of Italy's Prime MinisterBerlusconi.Gavin Hewit wrote about Berlusconi as his personal tainted life forced him to trust vote in Italy's senate and lower house.Similarly British historian Alex Von Tenzelmann wrote about personal life's other side Nehru in his book "Indian Summer" and Former Tamilnadu DGP K.Mohandas IPS wrote about other side personal life of Tamilnadu MGR aka M G Ramachandran in his book "MGR:The Man and the Myth."
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Re #62
Excuse me whilst I chortle at the crassness, ineptitude and general level of Moderation.
HeHaw, hehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
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Now that is an intriguing analogy, especially coming from a Spaniard. When one recalls the Basque Separatist Movement and the Northern Ireland situation the British/English Devolved UK clearly needs no example from Spain on what constitutes a "Superstate"! In general JorgeG1 is trying to suggest the UK's politics is akin to the fascist far-right policies of the French Party led by Le Penn.
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Berlusconi is one of the best politicians the world has ever known. Who else is the best friend of Russia and the USA, the north and south of Italy, women of left and right? Eat your heart out Obama, Cameron, Merkel, ......
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cool_brush_work wrote:
"HeHaw, hehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!"
Not much has changed around here, then.
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DemocracyThreat
Re #63 & #66
Yes, hehawing hasn't improved!
You're also right, the Moderation is STILL so bally uneven that from Comment to Comment using the exact same language stuff gets Published or Censored without rhyme or reason.
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Dear BBC blog contributor,
Thank you for contributing to a BBC blog. Unfortunately we've had to remove your comment below. Comments on the BBC blogs may be removed if they are considered likely to provoke, attack or offend others, use swear words, or disrupt the message boards.
Subject:The un-European Posting:Re #131. At 11:43am on 11 Dec 2010, JorgeG1 writes: "..I was listening to French radio the other day (an advantage of not being monolingual) to an interview with Marine Le Pen, the daughter and candidate to replace Jean-Marie Le Pen as head of the far right Front National party. Listening to her was like reading this blog. She declared herself opposed to the Euro and to Schengen on account of national sovereignty. Apparently these are the same views of other far right parties in Europe, e.g. the party of Geert Wilders in the Netherlands. Other than these ultra nationalist far right parties, I haven't heard of any single politician in continental Europe advocating the views that you read day in and day out in this blog, which of course reflect the mainstream views prevailing in the UK superstate, in turn reflecting the views of the dominant force of that superstate, the English..."
The above is a fascinating observation by JorgeG1!
Fascinating if for no other reason than the Moderators Published that in full and clearly believed it wouldn't 'provoke', 'attack' or 'offend' others...
Apparently, Moderators can spot something likely to be 'provocative', 'attacking' or 'offensive' just by whether or not it is written by a Spanish person or an English person.
This must be the case because JorgeG1 wrote a 'provocative attack' upon the blog and upon the UK/England which many may have found 'offensive' as he alluded to Britons/English being followers of extremist politicians and for reference he included all about France's 'Msr Le Penn', 'National Party', the 'far right', 'Gert Wilders' & the 'Netherlands' politics, 'Euro', 'Schengen', 'superstate', the 'English' AND the Moderators Published JorgeG1 without batting an eyelid.
The piece below mentions every topic that JorgeG1 included in his piece, however the Moderators did NOT Publish it.
The only discernible difference is that the piece below was written by an Englishman in defence of Britain/England.
Obviously, unlike when JorgeG1 used all those keywords, it must have been very 'provocative', very 'attacking' and very 'offensive' for WHY else would the MODERATORS not Publish it?
"Le Penn's Party average above 15% Votes cast in France' national Elections and at times has attained over 20%.In comparison the UK's BNP has never attained 15% in any National poll. In the UK apart from a handful of Council seats and 2 MEPs there is no equivalence with France. Unlike in France (& in Spain plus almost all of 'west' EUrope) post-WW2 no member of a Far-right Political Party has held a seat in the UK Parliament unless one regards the Northern Ireland Republican & Loyalist MPs in that light."
"For 5 decades Le Penn's Party has held significant power in some National & Regional districts of France.UKIP shares the same opposition views to the supra-National EU & Schengen, but is entirely different in its domestic Political outlook from Le Penn's National Party holding diametrically different views on most UK issues, e.g. Immigration than the racially motivated extremes of France's National Party."
"Le Penn's National Party with its widespread Electoral support has significant central in-put to the internal and external Politics of France.Similarly, I'm sure UKIP does have some affect on the external Policy outlook of the 3 main UK Parties, but only as a fringe element as compared to the 'National' influence of Le Penn."
"I recognise that being Spanish JorgeG1 would be extra sensitive to Far-right views and clearly they are anathema to him.
Equally, I recognise that a huge majority of Britons/English share his aversion to fascism. Hence in the finest traditions of Demcoratic UK there is no Parliamentary move to ban Burkhas, Minarets, Qur'an... No, infact, contrary to France, Netherlands etc. it is refreshing to see that alongside this lack of Far-right extremism in Parliament there was at the UK's June 2010 General Election a clear lack of enthusiasm among Britons/English for Far-right candidates."
"One has only to recall that in Northern Ireland there are still some 20 to 30 'missing' bodies of victims of 'Nationalist-Republican' violence in the last 3 decades of the 20th century to see and loathe such an ugly political cause.It must therefore be hard, and we should all empathise with JorgeG1 in his anxiety, when one also recalls some 10s of thousands of 'missing' undisclosed bodies of victims of fascism in Spain."
"Of course, one has to guard against a somewhat dangerous, extremist viewpoint that would classify any and all opposition voices to an EU 'Superstate' or to 'Schengen' open borders as only being 'Far-right': That would be akin to attempting to silence the Democratic Right and Responsibility of Citizens to voice an opinion that does not suit the majority. Doubtless, that would never be in JorgeG1's mind: I mean just branding entire groups of people because of a certain viewpoint..."
Fortunately, all the fascination in the World cannot disguise the truth of the matter.
Sometimes Moderation is a very inaccurate, blunt and irredeemably biased tool!
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"End of story, put it once and for all in your mind: Italy is no more mob than Britain and no more mafia than Germany. And Russia is no less democratic than USA"
Thanks, Nik the Greek: I needed a good laugh. :-)
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AiW " While Ford is perennially in strike :o)))), powermeer."
Alice, it's not for the first time you've posted as truth something completely utrue.
Ford not only isn't permanently on strike: it's a the only American car manufacturer which's refused a government bail-out.
And despite that it's doing remerkably well, considering global economic slowdown.
Unlike certain famous Russian car manufacturer - if BBC and other leading news gathering/reporting organizations are to be believed.
[And yes, you can buy a Ford in other colours than black as well. :-)))]
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Re #37 "See absolutely no scare of some "mob" culture spreading out from Italian fridges into Russian kitchens ;o))):"
I fully agree. If news are to be believed it's Italian mob which should fear an expansion of Russian mob; particularly when those poor mafiosos see how succesful that Russian mob has been in Spain.
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OMGosh RmedStu..
I acknowleged your point and said 'im too sensitive'
Things jump out at me..and before thinking...harder..I respond.
Yes WAIW has a great change of subject technique and PMK has a much more refined approach than some...I just do resent ...males..using the gay word as a gossip word or example of an insult and
I HAVE tortuously learned how to deal with paranoid 'normal' males at work..ya know those whom only try speaking to one ..
when no one is looking
w/o rancor...a little info sometimes goes too far a distance..especially on paper
Ck out GEICO ads about Neanderthals and car insurance...we all have feelings
It IS true..it IS true..even ..wow...even Israelis???? Yes.
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powermeer, Ford factory in Russia is here, in St. Petersburg. Well, rather in the "Leningrad region", so much beloved by you. They are making local newspapers' news constantly ;o)))))))), and I think we know their trade union leaders' names by heart now :o))))), as well as can tell of their salary changes and days of the week or months of the year when they work :o)))))))))))
Anyway, this blog is in patches, bandages and bruises as it is :o))))
If you want to quarrel, let's may be go to Mardell's - that one is alright - so far :o))))))))
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Thank you for contributing to a BBC blog. Unfortunately we've had to remove your comment below.
Subject:Berlusconi survives storm Posting:Re #131. At 11:43am on 11 Dec 2010, JorgeG1 writes: "..Jean-Marie Le Pen as head of the far right Front National party. *****Listening to her was like reading this blog.***** She declared herself opposed to the Euro and to Schengen on account of national sovereignty. Apparently these are *****the same views of other far right parties in Europe"**********"..in turn reflecting the views of the dominant force of that superstate, the English..."***** CBW: Now that is an intriguing analogy, especially coming from a Spaniard.In general JorgeG1 is trying to suggest the UK's politics is akin to the fascist far-right policies of the French Party led by Le Penn.I recognise that a huge majority of Britons/English share his aversion to fascism.Hence in the finest traditions of Demcoratic UK...it is refreshing to see that alongside this lack of Far-right extremism in Parliament there was at the UK's June 2010 General Election a clear lack of enthusiasm among Britons/English for Far-right candidates.I'm sure those of us with History in mind will understand JorgeG1's reminder and not take it as some OTT denigration of modern British/English Citizens. Equally sure that all the above could have been Published without any demure by anyone when it was first submitted.
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starting over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJcVbwiM1qU
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75. At 11:27am on 15 Dec 2010, Stevenson wrote:
starting over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJcVbwiM1qU
Superb! The divine Bette!
Few great performers over eras: I saw Judy Garland in London ('60s) & her daughter Liza (80ish?) another time, also both outstanding on stage. Madonna among the younger generation had the same energy, drive and spectacle at Wembley Stadium in the '80s.
All the same, Bette Midler was the defining example of all-round entertainer IMO.
Triple Cheers!
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Alice! In WONDERland indeed.
Can you please tell me, why there were massive riots in Hainshewai (aka Vladivostok) when Mr. Putin, in order so save a collapsing Russian car industry forbade the locals, from importing used cars from Japan?
I thought patriotic Russians like yourself would simply love to purchase those high quality Russian automotive products.
If only to help Mother Russia.
thank ya!
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77. At 4:11pm on 15 Dec 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"""Can you please tell me, why there were massive riots in Hainshewai (aka Vladivostok) when Mr. Putin, in order so save a collapsing Russian car industry forbade the locals, from importing used cars from Japan?"""
Because Japanese cars are only good for highways while with Russian cars you have no problem taking them to non-asphalt rural roads. And Putin does not want to have to pay for lots of highways apart the strict minimum between major cities (even if it goes straight through forests). As it is widely known, the generic mass productin 4x4 vehicle with the best off-road capabilities is the LADA Niva not the BMW Land Rover or the Toyota Highlander.
So to avoid having all the time the Nivas to rush to tow out the Highlanders stuck in the mud and snow of Russian roads, the government took pre-emptive measures and cut the crap imports. Ladas should do good to them, they need no Toyotas.
If only EU protected our industries that way.
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powermeer I can't afford either o))), be it old used Russian or old used Japanese, to say nothing of the new ones, so you question is mis-placed. Besides, Nik has replied to you :o))))
Unscientifically I think VVP had a fit of greediness :o))) back then, missed the money. He had just bailed out AutoVaz with ? 25 million? 25 billion? hard to say here o)))) - nevermind - anyway, dollars, and the AutoVaz promised him to be born a new, reformed factory :o))))))), once they get the cash;o))))))
So he gave them a second chance - and along with the money protected them a bit from the Japanese yes, (righ-wheel cars), all in one package. Also, I think it was done because a French company forgot which exactly then bought shares in AutoVaz and became a partner, and it was done to please the French a bit and cushion for them the meeting with the reality a bit :o))))), initially, at least o))))), so that they don't run away in scare o:))))
Don't ask me how a company who's got 60% of the market manage to operate at a loss o))))), especially making what they make o))))) One would think it doesn't cost them much ;o)))))) People say it's all salaries of the 'management' eating up each and every in-flux of state money into the business. For what they come with constantly is one worse than another :o))))), and Niki is right their old models are far more reliable.
Japanese cars are though beloved in Siberia where people have to travel huge distances, I am sorry I don't know the brands, but one popular starts with M and is nick-named in Russia "Masha"/Maria. Only Siberians improve it a little bit by hands to start in cold, add up some additional eh stoves? heaters ? to it inside in the engine part.
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