Fear and the euro
Panic is not the right word, but fear lingers in Brussels's corridors and in some capitals.
The fear is that the crisis in the eurozone - far from ebbing as many times predicted - remains acute.
You can sense the alarm today's comments by European Council President Herman Van Rompuy. He called it a "survival crisis". He urged: "We must all work together in order to survive with the eurozone, because if we do not survive with the eurozone, we will not survive with the EU." It is, of course, a debatable point. The EU survived before the advent of the single currency.
But this was a threat: that the Irish debt crisis could bring down the whole EU. This stark message was intended to scare states and leaders into coming up with answers.
In Germany, Angela Merkel too has been playing on fears. The German chancellor said: "I'm telling you, everything is at stake. If the euro fails, then Europe will fail. And with it fails the idea of European values and unity."
It is hard to know whether Mrs Merkel believes this to be literally true. But her intention was also clear: to rattle those within her own party and elsewhere in Germany who are in increasing numbers beginning to question the point of the European Union.
What has turned public opinion in Germany is the bail-out of Greece and the setting up of a so-called stability mechanism. It is sometimes forgotten - but not in Germany - that when the Deutschmark was given up there was a commitment that other countries would not be bailed out. Many Germans do not want to become the paymasters of Europe, but Mrs Merkel was trying to give herself some room for compromise. More German money may still be needed to resolve the euro crisis.
In this atmosphere of frayed nerves Europe speaks with many voices. The Economy Commissioner, Olli Rehn, warned today of "existential alarmism". He believes that such comments do not help. He expressly contradicted President Van Rompuy when he said the current crisis "is not a matter of survival of the euro".
And then in the wings the Greek leader, George Papandreou, accused the Germans of forcing countries towards bankruptcy. He said German tough talk that private bondholders could suffer losses in any future bail-out had pushed up borrowing costs and could "break backs".
The focus of the current crisis remains Ireland. Having spent the last 36 hours in Dublin I can report a sense of deep resentment at the pressure being put on the Irish government. Ministers genuinely believe they have a strategy that can work. They want time to deliver their budget on 7 December. That will set out the spending cuts and the tax increases to deliver a further 15bn euros (£13bn) of savings over the next few years. They also say that growth next year could be 2.5%.
Now in these fractious times all kinds of people are insisting they are not putting pressure on the Irish. The European Commission, for one, says its hand are clean.
Fingers point at the European Central Bank (ECB). They deny it too. Only the Portuguese and the Spanish are openly leaning on Dublin. The Portuguese say they are suffering from higher borrowing costs because of doubts over Irish debt. They say they might be pushed into asking for a bail-out. The Spanish Treasury Secretary, Carlos Ocana, pressed Ireland to come to a resolution quickly to end market uncertainty.
What is happening is that Ireland is being told to accept some kind of rescue for the good of the euro.
The problem for the Irish government is that it not only believes a bail-out is unnecessary - it fears humiliation, the stigma of having once been the Celtic Tiger but now needing to be rescued.
"There's no reason why we should trigger an IMF or an EU-type bail-out," said the Irish Europe Minister, Dick Roche. The pain would be less if the bail-out was just for Ireland's banks, which lie at the heart of its difficulties. The banks are having difficulty finding operating cash.
David McWilliams, an economist and the author of The Pope's Children (his account of Ireland's years of excess), said Ireland's only card was to admit defeat and essentially say that Ireland's problems were Europe's. That is one option, but it would amount to Ireland surrendering financial independence.
Something will give. The European Commission is holding talks with the IMF and the ECB. There are those who say that failure to reach agreement during the current meeting of European finance ministers could agitate the market and push up borrowing costs further.
The biggest concern is the domino effects - that Portugal won't be able to raise sufficient funds because of the cost of borrowing. If Portugal had to be bailed out the markets might question whether Spain could service its own debt, considering it has almost zero growth. The EU's bail-out mechanism may be able to handle the debts of Greece, Ireland and Portugal, but Spain would be altogether a different matter.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~21~RS~)
I'm 
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Germany should return to the DM --and get it all over with !
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Germany has for decades put its money where its mouth is.
--- with others only learning how to lap the bowl !
--and complaining when the bowl is empty-- as now !
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#1 #2
quietoaktree;
You certainly sound German, no matter how much you deny it!
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Gavin, you have several times claimed that germans are turning against the EU: and several times you have been asked to provide real evidence for these statements - please. However:
It seems that, when national politicians (ie leaders) talk about the EU they seem to forget they are not addressing their own, national audience and talking about national matters - and that, if their talk is of the Euro, then the markets are going to be hanging on (and weighing) their every word. But van Rompuy and Rehn should know better.
Whist I don't doubt the genuineness of Irish politicians beliefs that they can put their economy back into shape without an EU prop, from all that I have read about their predicament, I doubt their conclusions
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#3 C_C
-- Only a realist who has seen the German juggernaut !
--If contributors want to eat to eat their currencies --then they should.
One thing is clear, being in or out of the Eurozone has made no difference --whether Sterling or Dollar !
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Van Rumpoy's dark predictions of doom reminds one of John Major before Sterling left the ERM in 1992. Nothing bad happened when the UK left ERM, but the credibility of the political class was destroyed for a long time. Indeed great economic benefits began that day in '92 with the recession ending immediately and the longest period of growth in the British economy for 300 years beginning, i.e. the 16 years of growth between 1992 and 2008.
If the eurozone breaks up the credibility of the federalist clique behind the euro will be destroyed but nothing more. Indeed this is the only way there will be growth in Greece or Portugal in the foreseeable future. It will be good for the Irish unemployed and mortgage holders who are otherwise condemned by the federalist clique to never-ending 'negative equity' such as existed in Britain during 1988-92 but which ended when Sterling left ERM.
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I shall once again mention that The Konrad Adenauer Foundation the 2nd November 2010 published an analysis of the opinion of the Germans on the European integration. The overall conclusion is that Germans are quite satisfied with the membership.
Everybody can get a PDF copy of the report on the web site of the foundation. The offer includes BBC's Mr. Hewitt. It is one thing that he doesn't read the blog contributions. It is another that he is not informed.
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Ireland should resist this pressure with all it can. The EU and IMF are out to screw Ireland Royaly.
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The situation reminds me of Corporal Jones catch phrase, 'don't panic, don't panic'.
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The German chancellor said: "I'm telling you, everything is at stake. If the euro fails, then Europe will fail. And with it fails the idea of European values and unity."
There are some many things wrong with this statement.
What does it mean "the euro fails", countries could leave the euro and that does not mean failure merely a failure of a particular vision of what the euro should be, the euro could continue as the currency of a core group of countries (which is what it always should have been)
"Europe will fail": Europe is geographical area it cannot fail, the EU is not the same as Europe (just ask the Swiss). It is possible that the EU might fail but just as likely is that the EU would continue but with much less ambition as to its purpose. Again this is not Europe failing merely a particular vision of what Europe is about.
"European values and unity" I have very little idea of what European values are other than I am very sure that most of the UK would not agree with a some of those values, maybe even most, but would also definitely agree with some of the values. A temporary economic crisis will not change our values, the era of European wars has, thankfully, come to an end. If Merkel meant that the European concept of European social/christian democracy (in the Germanic political party form) with large govt would come to an end then I am happy to see it go. As for unity the problem with the EU is that they are completely incapable of understanding that different countries may have different solutions to the same problem
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Article: ...expressly contradicted...
I don't read it as a contradiction myself, at least not from the parts quoted here:
1) van Rompuy: EU depends on Eurozone
2) Rehn: Euro not at risk
Maybe others read it differenly.
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THe sooner the EU fails the better
The idea of the EU was as a common market not this monster it has grown into. The sooner we gain back control to our own government the better
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Let's get back to basics. If you lend foolishly you lose out.
Time to remind the bond market of this.
What's the problem?
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#6 Freeborn John
Dream on !
---with massive devaluations everywhere and a proportional increase in foreign debt --followed by state bankruptcies.
This time Britain will not be alone with devaluation.
--you want to try ???
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#9 one step beyond
--and the other.
--If you are not in panic --you don´t understand the problem !
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Sounds like an organised attempt to frighten states into complying with any demand made by the bureaucrats of the EU. It seems our European neighbours still believe that fear is the best weapon to make nations subservient. Is Von Rompay talking on his own behalf or is he acting as mouthpiece for bigger fish ? If Ireland does not hand over financial independence, will the Eurozone countries then wash their hands of Ireland and allow it to go banktrupt ? If Ireland goes down, then goodbye Euro ,the French and Germans may threaten, but will not allow that to happen ,they have too much to lose themselves.
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@6. Freeborn John wrote:
...Indeed great economic benefits began that day in '92 with the recession ending immediately and the longest period of growth in the British economy for 300 years beginning, i.e. the 16 years of growth between 1992 and 2008.
---------------------
Much of that "longest period of growth" was smoke-and-mirrors by an increasingly deregulated financial sector and governments eager to bask in the "glory". We are paying for that "growth" right now. Most likely with one of the biggest recessions in 300 years. The pain hasn't even started yet. A year from now, this will look like a picnic.
2000 to 2008 were NOT the wonder years - they were a gigantic con.
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In Germany, Angela Merkel too has been playing on fears. The German chancellor said: "I'm telling you, everything is at stake. If the euro fails, then Europe will fail. And with it fails the idea of European values and unity."
Perhaps she should shut her gob then, as such comments can only precipitate the downfall.
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#12 Zacha 4
Since when did contemplations of suicide get past the Mods ???
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So - people in Germany are questioning the point of the EU.
Precisely....
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#18 macednvs
-- Fear is unknown on this blog --the same with reality !
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I love the shrill panic of Hermann von Rumpey.
He is, alas, wrong. Like a cockroach, it seems the EU will survive most anything.
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To all those left-wing bank-bashing EU supporters here: Remember that when John Major burnt several billion pounds to defend his ego and the ERM, it was George Soros who pocketed the taxpayer money and the Conservative government that suffered the consequences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday
Merkel and Sarkozy and all the other center-right politicians should not be allowed to burn a much larger sum (500 billion) trying to save their egos and political skins todays; that huge amount of hard-earned taxpayer money will only end up in the pockets of those bankers (latter-day George Soros’s) that you despise so much.
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Everybody knows that Dollar and Pound are at war against Euro. And all anglo newspapers, Us and UK, are putting pressure fore it. If Euro falls nobody in eurozone should buy USA products or english products, never ever.
It was USA and it's greed that made this worldwide economical crisis, again. And now they are pegging China to mend it and trying force Euro to pay for it.
I will never buy USA products or UK products if euro falls because of this anglo press pressure and Pounds greedy speculatives.
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#24
I've been reading people panning the UK as an irrelevant has-been for months, and then it gets accused of trying to bring down one of the worlds reserve currencies! Which is it?? Good luck with finding a UK product not to buy. Unless you are a regular purchaser of high-tech intermediate and semi-finished goods that is, or are a heavy consumer of pharmaceuticals.....
Are you Greek?
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Merkel was close to having her coalition unwind when she agreed the first bail out. Having to go back and demand even more from German taxpayers may mean the end of her domestic political credibility.
Now which does she fear most, unpopularity in Europe or at home?
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#24 Pale
I'm sorry but if the Euro falls it has everything to do with false accounting and Euro zone governments just not respecting the borrowing and fiscal rules they signed up to. The Euro zone's own internal contradictions have done it all by themselves, its nothing to do with UK or USA government policy.
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We are told by some German lady that if the Euro fails so does the EU (in its present form). It is part of the problem that she doesn't realise that a vast number of the people that have been dragged willy nilly in to this unsound idiocy would regard that as good not bad. You won't see a better example of begging the question. There is also a touch of SFW. It is true there would be some considerable short term grief if national currencies were resumed--alongside a hard ecu some would say--but the need for trade would soon superimpose itself.
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Lets hope and pray the Euro is bust and its the end of this rotten, corrupt shower of greedy people.
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Well, yewlodge, it is easy english people to shut their eyes, but the real reason is that Puond is playing against Euro with Dollar. Those two nooty boys. Dollar is all to blame for economics and english cousin, the euro traiter, is playing the second fiddle.
Dollar is lousy. Pound is lousy. And now they are trying to make Euro pay all their own greediness. And to make profit out of it. Everybody knows it, all over the world. English press of cource tells their own story to back up speculators.
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Interesting to see the Greek PM having a pop at the Germans from the sidelines. I have no doubt the Germans will make him pay for it in the long run.
Perhaps he is worried because much of the Greek debt is still in the country. Many of the private bond holders are Greeks who have been less than willing to pay their full share of their taxes in the past or Greek financial institutions or pension funds politely informed to be patriotic and buy up the debt that no one else wants. Heaven forfend that they should have to pay the price for their own bad behaviour in the past. Like the drunk in a bar just one more drink wil mae it better or the gambler who chases their losses to no avail they simply can't call a halt to it all.
The Greeks, Spanish and Portuguese want the Germans, French and British to bail them out again and keep going on as if nothing happened. They are looking to bully the Irish for not being European enough and want to remind them that they should vote the way they are told in referendums. The Spanish and Portuguese want the Irish to fall first so that by the time they come begging for money the terms will be much better as the hope that the rest of the Eurozone will be paranoid about the domino effect of too many countries needing bailing out.
The only thing we are waiting for is how much will the "haircut" be and how will it be shared out between bond holders and tax payers.
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Hi champagne_charlie
"Good luck with finding a UK product not to buy."
You would be surprised how little UK products are in the continent. I suggesst that you sell them to your conspiracy cousins to USA.
We in the continent can buy each other our european products. Like food, BMW, Audi, better beers etc. And we have better football here too.
"Are you Greek?"
No thank you.
Cheers, Pate
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Euro & European Union - YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK ----GOODBYE
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It looks like the EUs attempt at being a true federal europe has gone up in smoke. with the Greeks economy down the tubes, Ireland look like following them soon and the Portugese and Spanish finding it hard to borrow money it looks like by this time next year the PIGS will have to leave the Euro and the EU.
I hope this happens because it means the hangers on will fall off and the rest of the EU will be able to get their money's worth especially Germany, France and the UK (the only net contributors in the EU family).
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The French have called for a run on the banks on December 14th. So yeah,
you should be worried.
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andyunlimited @34
You are being unfair: the Dutch, Swedes and Finns also pay through the nose to allow the PIIGS to avoid default (and to subsidise Luxembourg's GDP - the highest in the West).
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#32
"We in the continent can buy each other our european products. Like food, BMW, Audi, better beers etc. And we have better football here too."
Oh...you're one of the ubermensch from Juggernautland. Can I let you into a little secret...sshhh...dont tell anyone....we can buy all that stuff here too..ssshhh.
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It was Angela Merkel who prompted the sudden problem in the Irish bonds with her comment last week that the bond-holders should have to pay something towards the resolution of the crisis.
However, it strikes me as deeply immoral that some individuals are in a position to hold the sovereignty of a nation to ransom. Whether it is Ireland today or as a few years ago Britain on so-called Black Wednesday.
In our secular world, the "Markets" now hold the position of "The Gods" in pre-history. They must be appeased at all costs, perhaps not human sacrifice, but national sovereignty. This is a disgraceful situation. What has happened to Democracy - government by the people, for the people and of the people? (please don't come back to me with a whinge that the EU is not democratic). The Markets are answerable to no one, and are accountable to no one and are destroying nations and individuals in them.
Governments must take back control of the markets by very tight regulation. As they have shown over the past couple of decades, they are unable to regulate themselves so someone else must do it, and better it was done by those who are accountable to the people who suffer because of the vagaries, whims and nastiness of said markets.
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The euro is like the gold standard. The only choices are deflation, default or devaluation. The euro was a collossal mistake, like the gold standard. Since it is politically impossible to disolve EMU, the sick members should exit, redenominate all debts public and private, inflate and devalue. While this may be viewed as default, there is nothing that creditors can do, as it would all be subject to domestic law. Although this seems radical, it will eventually have to happen. The longer it is postponed, the greater the social damage.
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Maybe it is time that some posters stopped all this backbiting, stood back and had a long hard look at the reality on the ground.
The Euro has failed spectacularly as a pillar of international finance. It failed because it was administered inflexibly by a centralised bureaucratic system which neither knew nor cared what the possible consequences would be for individual nations trying to function within the constraints it imposed apparently without regard for wildly differing economic climates. It neither knew nor cared until crunch time came and it then began to descend into a state of near panic. Now let us be realistic. It is not a spectacular failure for ordinary people who really do not care whose picture is on the banknote they spend providing it buys them what they want to buy. The fact that they can do so across many borders is an added bonus but it will count for nothing if the system implodes and their currency is no longer worth the paper on which it is printed.
There is a similarity between the Euro crisis and the banking crisis of 2007-8. Like it or not, there are institutions, ideas - call them what you will -that are simply too big to be allowed to fail. The Euro is one such. There is quite simply too much emotional and ideological capital invested in it to contemplate winding it up. The simple matter of the logistical cost involved in reverting to national currencies does not bear thinking about. Add to that the nightmare for businesses which have grown accustomed to conducting normal business in a cross border currency and you have a recipe for meltdown.
What we need to do is to accept the existence of the Euro and continue to use it but to seriously question the way in which it functions, the political motivation of those who promoted it without thinking it through and - above all - the potential mechanisms for correcting the imbalances and putting it back on course. We should not lose sight of the fact that nobody stood behind the participants with a whip forcing them to join. Some -the architects of the original scheme - participated willingly. Others had it imposed on them as a precondition of membership. In other words, it was used as a political tool in an environment where economic considerations should have primacy. The conclusion is inescapable. The Euro is and always was a weapon in the armoury of the handful of founding nations with the primary purpose of bringing everyone else into line. Now those same people are feeling the pinch of political reaction as they begin to face up to the fact that the edifice they created is beginning to cost them a great deal of money.
The simple truth is that Ireland - while it unquestionable brought many of its problems on itself - was straight-jacketed into a situation in which they lacked the freedom to adjust policy to take account of changing circumstances. I have the greatest sympathy for the Irish as they stand helplessly by while their economic miracle collapses around them but absolutely none for the Germans who are whining about the bailout cost.
Given time and sensible policies, economies can recover. Dreams, once lost, are irrecoverable. The sooner Europe finds the courage to dump the architects of the nightmare - Merkel, Barosso, van Rompouy et al - and re-examines root and branch the state of its institutions, the sooner we can move on. This applies equally to the democratic deficit they have created but this thread is about economic matters so I leave it there.
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#32 - Pate
Which continent would that be?
Sorry, can't stop. Have to get the Cumberland sausages off the back seat of the Jag before they defrost. It is unusually warm for the time of year in Hungary.
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Please pass this on to the appropriate editors
Just watching Gavin Hewitt's report on News 24 (abou 23:10).
Please, Please, Please Auntie Beeb - stop showing pictures of the Bank of Ireland when your reports refer to or imply reference to the central bank of Ireland. The Bank of Ireland is a commercial institution and IS NOT the same as the Central Bank (your pictures / video is of the BoI on College Gren; if you walk up a bit further towards Dame Street you will find the Central Bank on your right hand side)
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I think the word 'bailout' being bandied about here is lot less innocuous than it seems. I see no problem with the ECB or whoever offering loans to Ireland at reasonable rates to help resolve the bank problem. But what Ireland is being pressured to accept is to allow the lenders to basically take over the economic and taxation policies of the country. Ireland is not asking for the so called bailout, so if it foisted on us we should be allowed retain control of our own policies.
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40 threnodio writes:
"The Euro has failed spectacularly as a pillar of international finance. It failed because it was administered inflexibly by a centralised bureaucratic system which neither knew nor cared what the possible consequences would be for individual nations trying to function within the constraints it imposed apparently without regard for wildly differing economic climates."
After the introduction of the euro, its exchange rate against other currencies fell heavily, especially against the U.S. dollar. From an introduction at US$1.18/€, the euro fell to a low of $0.8252/€ by 26 October 2000. The euro began steadily appreciating, and regained parity with the U.S. dollar, on 15 July 2002. The euro has not fallen below parity with the U.S. dollar since December 2002 but has risen in value.
By 23 May 2003, the euro surpassed its initial ($1.18) trading value for the first time. At the end of 2004, it reached $1.3668 (€0.7316/$) as the U.S. dollar fell against all major currencies. Against the U.S. dollar, the euro temporarily weakened in 2005, falling to $1.18 (€0.85/$) in July 2005, and was stable throughout the third quarter of 2005. In November 2005 the euro again began to rise steadily against the U.S. dollar, hitting one record high after another. On 15 July 2008, the euro rose to an all-time high of $1.5990 (€0.6254/$). In a reversal, in August 2008 the euro began to drop against the U.S. dollar. In just two weeks the euro fell from its peak to $1.48 and by late October it reached a two and a half year low below $1.25 before moving back above $1.50 by November 2009.[70] On 29 December 2008, the pound sterling fell to an all-time low of £0.97855 (€1.0219/£) against the euro, although its value recovered somewhat in 2009.[71] In early 2010, concerns over the solvency of Greece caused a drop in the exchange rate against the dollar followed by a bounce to $1.33.[72]
Some failure! It's its success that makes it dangerous to the hegemony of the US dollar. But seeing that America is even more broke than the PIGS the dollar might seem to be a spectacular failure. We live in interesting times!
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40. At 11:04pm on 16 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:...
... wrote a very well thought and extremely interesting text:
"""Maybe it is time that some posters stopped all this backbiting, stood back and had a long hard look at the reality on the ground."""
Indeed, I do often feel "guilty" in finding pleasure in side-discussions while the real questions are running behind. And indeed, at some point we have to stop and view things under a certain perspective as you say.
"""The Euro has failed spectacularly as a pillar of international finance. It failed because it was administered inflexibly by a centralised bureaucratic system which neither knew nor cared what the possible consequences would be for individual nations trying to function within the constraints it imposed apparently without regard for wildly differing economic climates."""
Precisely. This on the inside. However, euro posed also as a world exchange currency. Hence we have to add on top the lack of geopolitical positioning of Europe, something which should had followed at least, if not preceded it and you hace the recipe of failure. Why would international markets give preference to euro when Europeans have no saying over the worlds' routes of trade but robotically follow the US?
"""The simple matter of the logistical cost involved in reverting to national currencies does not bear thinking about. Add to that the nightmare for businesses which have grown accustomed to conducting normal business in a cross border currency and you have a recipe for meltdown."""
That is the problem. Reverting back, is possible but will be painful for at least 1 generation - i.e. 1 generation of people will have to be completely sacrificed. Following it, the European economies will have to resurface on their own and each swimming its own way in the ocean. Some might prosper, some will be totally erased and there will be again huge conflicting interests that will inevitably lead to the dissolution of the loose EU, the formation of new regional blocks (pro US, pro Russian and neutral i.e. crypto-pro Chinese etc.).
"""What we need to do is to accept the existence of the Euro and continue to use it but to seriously question the way in which it functions"""
I also think it is the best we can do for our case. Will not speak for 2110 or something, but for the next 10-15 years we have to do so. Reverting back to currencies is the first step of many steps backwards and while I do believe that for my country Greece this could be even positive (as it is too small and 2-3 presents from Russia and China (they indeed offered already them but Jeffrey chose the IMF!) suffice to make it thrive again), I do believe that in the long run for Europe it will be negative, EU will loosen up and then forget about economies... it will be about tensions and even war resurfacing, however this time with other powers playing in Europe colonial like games...
"""I have the greatest sympathy for the Irish as they stand helplessly by while their economic miracle collapses around them but absolutely none for the Germans who are whining about the bailout cost."""
Precisely. Germans forget what they really get out of the EU and I mean the indirect which is far greater than the direct.
"""Given time and sensible policies, economies can recover. Dreams, once lost, are irrecoverable."""
Ouaou!
"""The sooner Europe finds the courage to dump the architects of the nightmare - Merkel, Barosso, van Rompouy et al - and re-examines root and branch the state of its institutions, the sooner we can move on. This applies equally to the democratic deficit they have created but this thread is about economic matters so I leave it there."""
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Well, it works for the German Government and export industries. Remember, at the peak of the Greece crisis earlier this year, the euro deflated itself and subsequently boosted the German export industries like not experienced for the previous 20 years or so. Now, and since the export industry is showing a slow down, the Irish crisis comes right on time. A little more bad publicity and the euro will be pushed down again. As a result, the German export industries will benefit again.
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There are few things that need to be considered here. First the EEC and then the EU was expressly set up to create supranational institutions. This was one of Robert Schuman's goals, and from that point of view the EEC/EU has succeeded spectacularly. Now there is so much more interaction between all European countries outside the formal EU organisations that the spider's web of interrelationships is complex, massive and will be very difficult to untangle.
Next remember that the Euro was established as another process of the integration of the European economies. The Maastrict treaty did much to interlock the member states much more closely together, and along the way helped by reducing democratic deficit. That process has steadily continued. No one can argue that the deficit has vanished, but the powers of the European Parliament are phenomenally greater than they were in 1990. If you are a democrat you must admit that that is a good thing.
Next, rather than thinking back to the 1950s, 60s and 70s where much was decided at the national level consider how the world will look in 20 years. Even the USA recognises the power/threat of China, India and the rest; so much so that they send their top guy, someone called Obama, to India to shake the hands of the leaders there. Think what that is telling you. You can rightly argue that China and India are not yet world powers, and that they have much wrong internally within their borders. Yes, indeed they do, but by burying your head in the sand and saying they are really third world countries with an exploited working population seriously misses what is very likely to happen in 20 years time.
We will have to deal more and more with these countries, and as individual countries this will just become a nonsense. China will not want to talk to the UK, France or Sweeden. They will want to know who to pick up the phone to when talking to Europe. So the European institutions I mentioned at the start of this are the vital link in talking to the wider world.
The ultimate requirement for Europe is to get its economy working again. The euro is a big step forward in achieving that, and will not be given up willingly, even if many on here thing it should be. What was wrong, and known to be wrong at the time it was created, was the lack of any fiscal control. It was assumed (hoped?) that the fiscal measure to keep each countries inflation and interest rate requirements in check would be done by each member state. We are at the point now. The next stage in the development of the euro is going to be interesting.
What may happen is that some countries (Ireland, Portugal, Greece, possibly even Spain) have to drop out of the Eurozone. It does not mean the end of the euro. What it will mean is that to rejoin there will be tighter rules that they must follow (essentially the fiscal controls that were missing previously). So it will be nearer to a united states of Europe, but many in the EU see that as the correct way to defend against the wider global economic threat that is coming.
Even if they don't leave the euro there will be very strong pressure to get them to conform. At the end of the day the southern European states have different economies to those in the north. This is widely recognised within Brussels and much work has gone into trying to rebalance this. Unfortunately the stupid housing boom (and Britain is as insanely guilty of this as is anyone else) has caused so many problems. We all feel richer because we *could* sell or homes for silly prices. Well the chickens have finally come home to roost -- and about time.
The thing that really should happen is that house prices are made to fall significantly, causing much pain and heartache to many who are trying to buy their home. But to be honest they shouldn't have been allowed to do it, and whether it is fair on them or not the sooner the pain is dished out the better. Alas, this will not be done willingly as it will upset the banks who are currently holding the baby. With the prospect of the bath water being lost too they will lobby hard to stop it.
There are many problems structurally within Europe, and many opportunities within the world. Getting rid of the euro and dismembering the EU will not solve the problems, but do provide a focus to help respond to the opportunities. For this reason the euro will continue, as will the EU.
There can be no other way for vested interests in the EU -- the member states themselves.
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31. At 9:01pm on 16 Nov 2010, Ian_the_chopper wrote:
"""Interesting to see the Greek PM having a pop at the Germans from the sidelines. I have no doubt the Germans will make him pay for it in the long run."""
First, the "Greek MP" is simply the MP of Greece, but is no Greek, not in blood, not in language (he learnt it mostly as a foreign language), not in culture, not in education, not in consciousness above all. He is a US citizen. He is the US man inside the EU, one of them, the most obvious one. His father (also a US citizen) had been one too afterall and his grandfather (the only one who can claim some Greek ancestry in the family... - even that is disputed... hehe). His name is Jeffrey. Jeffrey Mineiko Papandreou, last addition the greek one to make it greek-like to sell more in the elections... hehe... so you get the point mate. When he speaks, it is the US speaking.
"""Perhaps he is worried because much of the Greek debt is still in the country."""
Are you mad? Do you think he worries? He took more than 2 months vacations this summer!!! His back-side earnings are 100s of millions of dollars back home (in his US motherland, I mean!) and he has secured his great-great-grandchildren so that there will be no need for any other Mineiko member to get into the trouble of having to deal with that "little despeakable" country (as the Mineiko-Papandreou call the country).
"""Heaven forfend that they should have to pay the price for their own bad behaviour in the past."""
Precisely, those who have to pay. That does not include anyone else but mostly around 20% of the Greek taxpayers - we all know whom! But Jeffrey started from elsewhere. Naturally. The point was never the "sanitisation" of the economy you see.
"""The Greeks, Spanish and Portuguese want the Germans, French and British to bail them out again and keep going on as if nothing happened."""
Eeee... wrong. Speaking for Greeks, Greek public opinion overwhelmingly had rejected last year the idea of any bail out since they considered it (absolutely correctly) as added burden. They rather called for a rationalisation of the debt which of course included clearing out the legal debt to be paid and the illegally imposed and illegally demanded debt which up to last year was a huge amount of the Greek debt and which the Greek state was not by any means obliged to pay. It was Jeffrey who played with the Greek state and even with Europe going against the interests of both Greece and EU and calling in the IMF as well as the EU-packet aid - worse solution for Greece and with his doings he rationalised all the irrational and legalised all the illegally imposed debt upon Greece.
"""They are looking to bully the Irish for not being European enough and want to remind them that they should vote the way they are told in referendums."""
First time i heard so.
"""The Spanish and Portuguese want the Irish to fall first so that by the time they come begging for money the terms will be much better as the hope that the rest of the Eurozone will be paranoid about the domino effect of too many countries needing bailing out."""
Quite the opposite, the more countries fail the less money to bail out.
-----------------------------
Now leave the common staff and explain to me this:
How on earth did Ireland with such a different economic approach to say Greece reached the same levels of trouble?
I mean:
You have state-controlled Greece which in the last 32 years of its EU experience was extremely corrupt, it became ompletely desindustrialised, it was rendered an debt-based import-nation but still tried to live pharanically, it is least productive, it became the terror and horror of healthy international investments, it kicked out all high-level businesses, it tried to establish a pseudo-socialist most unprouctive state, it had the hugest defense budget in the whole of Europe maintaining one of the biggest standing armies relative to its size (and even not so!) with top hi-tech material all imports, and and and.... the list does not end
Then you have overly-liberal Ireland of relatively low corruption levels which in the past 30 years tried the flexy-market, liberal ways, attraction of healthy international investments, attraction of high-tech companies, a lean mean state that did not provide much to citizens thus having few expenses, with a minimal military budget....
... yet Ireland did not manage to fare any better than Greece ending up having similar debt levels...Do you find it logical? How is it possible?
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"It is sometimes forgotten - but not in Germany - that when the Deutschmark was given up there was a commitment that other countries would not be bailed out. "
That sums up the whole "EU"-Rubbish: a house of cards built upon a foundation of lie after lie after lie.
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40. At 11:04pm on 16 Nov 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
"...
The Euro has failed spectacularly as a pillar of international finance."
EUpris: Remember folks! This is an "EU"-lover talking!
All those "nasty" opponents of the Euro/"EU" have been criticising it for ages.
When an "EU"-lover runs it down, then surely it is time to run for cover and get your savings out of the Euro!
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48. At 00:31am on 17 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:
" ...
You have state-controlled Greece which in the last 32 years of its EU experience was extremely corrupt ..."
EUpris: Remember Folks! This is a Greek telling us how corrupt Greece has been.
When some "nasty" opponent of the "EU" makes such a comment they get abuse.
I want to be friendly with the Greeks. I just don't want to be in a political or financial union with them.
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Austrian Radio website states Austria to ignore ECHR judgement on deporting somebody to Greece.
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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100063853/irelands-smug-euro-loving-elite-has-led-their-country-to-ruins-little-englanders-saved-ou/
"Ireland's smug, Euro-loving elite has led their country to ruins – 'Little Englanders' saved ours"
Interesting stuff.
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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100063948/britain-should-help-ireland-but-not-by-propping-up-the-euro/
"Britain should help Ireland, but not by propping up the euro"
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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100008678/austria-tells-greece-to-get-stuffed/
"Austria tells Greece to get stuffed"
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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100008667/the-horrible-truth-starts-to-dawn-on-europes-leaders/
"The horrible truth starts to dawn on Europe's leaders...
Jacques Delors and fellow fathers of EMU were told by Commission economists in the early 1990s that this reckless adventure could not work as constructed, and would lead to a traumatic crisis. They shrugged off the warnings."
EUpris: When do the "leaders" in the "EU" listen to anybody who does not tell them what they want to hear???
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Rats!
Get out of the sewers! The "EU" might soon be flushed down there and you won't like the smell!
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#46
"Well, it works for the German Government and export industries. Remember, at the peak of the Greece crisis earlier this year, the euro deflated itself and subsequently boosted the German export industries like not experienced for the previous 20 years or so. Now, and since the export industry is showing a slow down, the Irish crisis comes right on time. A little more bad publicity and the euro will be pushed down again. As a result, the German export industries will benefit again."
So , what you're saying is, in fact, that its Germany who has most to gain by artificially depressing the Euro and engineering a crisis to benefit its exports, whilst simultaneously getting control of all the PIIGS in the pigpen. What say you other Juggernautlanders and your conspiracy theories about the UK/US?
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#40 threnodio_II
Why should we stick with the Euro ? I lived in Italy at the time of its introduction ; some of my friends ( incidentaly socialist/communist ) were enthusiastic . The majority hated the Euro , just a worthless bit of paper and silly coins too small to handle . I guarantee that if you asked most ordinary people right across Europe , they would choose to return to their own currency . The Euro does nothing to bond European nationalities one to another ; it is like a transplant the body rejects .
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Blaming the USA won't get anyone out of this mess.
So, blame each other...yeah that is it...That IS an idea...
But not so intelligent,
THIS above IS WHAT I THINK THRENODIO II IS TRYING TO SAY.
Blaming someone else, for one's own mess, is much like saying,
I GIVE UP!
And its not good to give up when your fate And others tied to your economies are NOT giving up....
that would make YOU dead weight...and hmmm what happens to dead weight--thrown overboard!
to sink to the bottom of the sea--
I can just see your best friends ..um China, Russia and us, the USA saying,
"They can't be revived, so toss them overboard"
Don't ever give up, because others are just waiting for THAT moment to
Let You....give up.
SAVE YOURSELVES, NO ONE ELSE WILL--AND DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR FRIENDS...YOUR TRUE FRIENDS--YOURSELVES!
:))))))
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#54
"Britain should help Ireland, but not by propping up the euro"
Agreed. But given the likelihood of 500,000 job cuts in the UK over the next few years and billions in spending cuts, there isn't much scope for the UK to bail-out Ireland. The Irish would reject British help even if it was offered, I've seen the ghosts of Irish independence resurrected in too many newspapers since this crisis began. It also would be an admission, that the damn Brits were right all along about the Euro and no self-respecting Irishman wants to be faced with that!
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" So , what you're saying is, in fact, that its Germany who has most to gain by artificially depressing the Euro and engineering a crisis to benefit its exports, whilst simultaneously getting control of all the PIIGS in the pigpen. What say you other Juggernautlanders and your conspiracy theories about the UK/US?"
champagne_charlie, maybe you should read only what I said and not what you think I said. Germany does not "artificially depress the euro and engineer the crisis", this is done by those who ruin their own country's economies, eg Greece and Ireland. That Germany's economy, in particular its export industries, do benefit from the failure of other member states is obvious and does not require your smart lecture.
Besides this, I sincerely doubt that Germany has anything in mind like "simultaneously getting control of all the PIIGS in the pigpen". And you know why? Because they would have to raise the retirement age in Germany to 70 or beyond in order to financially back the PIIGS. You really think that this is what they have been conspiring for since inception of the EU?
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Herman Van Rompuy is nominal President of the EU ; he is certainly beginning to be heard " If the Euro fails , so will the EU "
Whose side is Rompy Pompy on anyway ? Could he be the champion of the Eurosceptics .
Regarding Ireland ; futher borrowing to pay her debts is going to drag her down to a point of no recovery . The EU bail out sceme for the Eurozone countries will destroy the Euro and the EU .
Countries like Ireland , Greece , Portugal , Spain or Italy should default if necessary and return to their own currencies .
The EU is the sinking ship and dragging down all the member states with it .
Never mind the Commission , the bureaucrats , the parliament , ECJ and ECHR , sack the lot , a huge amount of mispent money will be saved .
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#53. At 02:31am on 17 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731
A very interesting and succinct analysis, a 'must read', and I've included two paragraphs that ring oh so true with many of the anti-English posters here, in this case it's referring to Ireland and the EU project :-
"They were led by their political elite, but in all these countries the population followed; only in Britain was there widespread hostility to the idea, not because of our attachment to some “glorious imperial past”, as the federasts believe, but because in Britain the idea of the nation-state was not discredited by war."
'If Peter Hitchens got a penny for every time someone repeated this line, he could probably single-handedly bail out Ireland, but it’s worth repeating: “Britain is the only virgin in a continent of rape victims.”'
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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100008678/austria-tells-greece-to-get-stuffed/
"Britain must feel like a man who’s missed the Titanic and had to watch his ex-girlfriend and her new friends partying away into the sunset."
.. said the man, standing alone on an iceberg.
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61. At 08:23am on 17 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:
#54
"Britain should help Ireland, but not by propping up the euro"
Agreed. But given the likelihood of 500,000 job cuts in the UK over the next few years and billions in spending cuts, there isn't much scope for the UK to bail-out Ireland. The Irish would reject British help even if it was offered, I've seen the ghosts of Irish independence resurrected in too many newspapers since this crisis began. It also would be an admission, that the damn Brits were right all along about the Euro and no self-respecting Irishman wants to be faced with that!
-----------------
Of course you'll take your share in an Ireland bail-out, as it is in fact a bail out for the banks that have invested into the irish housing bubble.
German banks have about 138 billions of credits in Ireland, GB has around 150 billions there. (Both figures in Euros)
To stabilisize those credits, I think, both coutries will secure around 10% of the credits of the banks based in their countries.
So, my prediction: direct bail-out and share of IMF and EU emergency fonds will add to around 14 billion Euros for Germany, and around 15 billion Euros for GB.
Take my word.
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#65. At 08:36am on 17 Nov 2010, starofthesouth
Better to be alone and alive than threshing around in the frozen seas of economic disaster with pockets stuffed with Euro's that are getting soggier by the minute.
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64. At 08:36am on 17 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
"They were led by their political elite, but in all these countries the population followed; only in Britain was there widespread hostility to the idea, not because of our attachment to some “glorious imperial past”, as the federasts believe, but because in Britain the idea of the nation-state was not discredited by war."
From and continental standpoint one could say: "Britain is the only european state who hasn't felt the failure of nationalism on their own hymen, but will have it's own defloration sooner or later."
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51. At 02:15am on 17 Nov 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:
48. At 00:31am on 17 Nov 2010, Nik wrote:
" ...
You have state-controlled Greece which in the last 32 years of its EU experience was extremely corrupt ..."
EUpris: Remember Folks! This is a Greek telling us how corrupt Greece has been. When some "nasty" opponent of the "EU" makes such a comment they get abuse.I want to be friendly with the Greeks. I just don't want to be in a political or financial union with them.
------------------------------
Well Greek people never pretended their state was any less that extremely corrupt. In fact they had been shouting it - with lots of Greeks finding refuge to European courts to find some hope of justice against the monster, that is the modern Greek state. For Greeks, people who anyway do not suffer from such complexes of image, are open people in such terms. And certainly Greeks do not mind when British, French or Germans declare that they would like not to be in union with the Greeks, we do not take it personally or something!
Note that Greeks were the ONLY people in Europe (not even the British...) who were the most Eurosceptic when enterring the EU - in fact, they went on to vote for the party that promised to get them out of the EU (.... what else, PASOK, champion of break promises). Then EU gave to PASOK tons of packets which PASOK delivered to (mostly its own) people and by means of bribery and propaganda the idea that the EU is indispensable for Greece was instilled. The main problem for Greeks is that with the EU gone, they are all alone in the world and that is not a problem at all in financial terms but geopolitically - mathematically they will be militarily attacked by Turkey under US instructions, unless they find refuge under Russia - but in the latter case... Europeans might as well attack it Jugoslavia style...!!!
What Greeks minded was all that injust attack to their nation, to their culture, the ridicule and all that - for example "Greeks do not work" when EU statistics show that Greeks actually are overworked with average working annual hours at 30% more than the as-if hardworking Germans. What Greeks said is that "lets concentrate on the heart of the issue" which is not only purely financial and organisational (that is the 1 basic thingie), but also geopolitical (that is the other basic thingie): dealing only with the one and not with the other will lead us nowhere.
65. At 08:36am on 17 Nov 2010, starofthesouth wrote:
""""http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100008678/austria-tells-greece-to-get-stuffed/
"Britain must feel like a man who’s missed the Titanic and had to watch his ex-girlfriend and her new friends partying away into the sunset."
.. said the man, standing alone on an iceberg.""""
-------------
Pleasantly read!
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63. At 08:27am on 17 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:
"""Herman Van Rompuy is nominal President of the EU ; he is certainly beginning to be heard " If the Euro fails , so will the EU "
Whose side is Rompy Pompy on anyway ? Could he be the champion of the Eurosceptics ."""
Well he certainly reveals us the fear of the Brussels bureaucrats that any step backwards will be inherently done in double and triple speed in comparison to any step forward - as such, all those years, there had been a constant pressure for moving forward without stopping to get a breat and see around the view.
"""Countries like Ireland , Greece , Portugal , Spain or Italy should default if necessary and return to their own currencies ."""
Yes but for them to do so they should also annulate pretty much the 80% od European treaties i.e. re-establishing closed borders, putting import taxation and for Greece's case kicking out instantly all more than 2 million illegal foreigners that EU imposes it to maintain and upkeep (at a rate of more than 60% unemployment and the rest 100% in black market jobs...). One cannot ask these countries - and particularly Greece to dance alone while chained on both legs.
"""The EU is the sinking ship and dragging down all the member states with it.Never mind the Commission , the bureaucrats , the parliament , ECJ and ECHR , sack the lot , a huge amount of mispent money will be saved ."""
The question is : how on earth EU bureaucrats had not seen it coming? What did they think?
But first one has to answer the above critical question:
How on earth 2 vastly different countries with vastly different economies, vastly different governmental policies, vastly different budget burdens and vastly different corruption levels like Ireland and Greece can end up having similar levels of debt?
What Greece did wrong is apparent. Pseudo-socialist corruption-ridden state funding itself through debt & eating its own flesh.
But what did Ireland exactly did wrong? Ireland had developed a lean lightweight state of liberal nature attracting foreign investements and all those goodies that financers preach around the world. So what went wrong?
Question not fully answered yet. And that is at the heart of my questioning of the whole issue...
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#68. At 08:55am on 17 Nov 2010, starofthesouth
Yes and it's called the EU and it's solidarity for the conmen that run the EU and Euro.
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Re #1, 2, 5, 14, 15, 19, 20
Apocryphal hysteria is best left unremarked.
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GH: The German chancellor said: "I'm telling you, everything is at stake. If the euro fails, then Europe will fail. And with it fails the idea of European values and unity."
There's a well known record by Pat Metheny entitled:
"As falls Wichita, so falls Wichita Falls."
Don't know why that quote reminded me of it.
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ThrenodioII
Re #40
Well done: The voice of conditional reasoning amid the hubble-bubble. If only I could have even a semblance of faith anyone in Brussels or the Paris-Berlin axis of-ill-intent had the slightest notion Your message of a 'middle-way' is worth consideration.
But unfortunately, I don't.
Of course, as with Your previous pleas for EU moderation, considered reform and easing of the strait-jacket... There is no chance whatsoever of Brussels adopting any of those options. The 'big-Business/big-Government' vested interests are embedded too deep to give up now on their anti-Democratic Federalising project.
As for Barroso, Von Rompuy, Rehn etc. being ousted from the coterie of gravy-train Brussels' apparatchiks I sense there is more chance of them recruiting additional power-hungry sentinels to enforce Brussels' disciplinary code (see Financial Oversight expansion, the EUropean Stabilisation Fund administration, never mind the glaring greed of an EU Parliament's Budget demands for forthcoming years).
The whole ediface is rotten from top to bottom: Within this decade it will go, but whether it is 'market' driven or Citizen action remains to be seen.
PS: Unlike the EU-Brussels entity & its Paris-Berlin controllers I am mindful of Ireland's predicament. This crisis is of Paris-Brussels-Berlin devising for their own Political ambition of "ever closer union" (read, 'domination') ends.
In my opinion on the actual Financial issue I believe if at all possible the UK Government & Financial Services sector should step in and give as much help on generous terms as it is possible (given UK's own vulnerability) - - it is not altruism - - PM Cameron has recognised the dangerous threat to UK's slow Economic recovery froman Irish collapse. UK must step-in and offer assistance in its own short & longterm interest.
Who knows - - UK may even make it possible for Dublin to step back from the brink of total submission and rule from Paris-Berlin - - and IMO in a geo-political Economic-Fiscal reality though the Irish would be loathe to agree: It is London-Edinburgh-Cardiff alongside cooperation, but not subservience to Brussels and the EU membership where its continued prosperity lies.
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"It is sometimes forgotten - but not in Germany - that when the Deutschmark was given up there was a commitment that other countries would not be bailed out."
Gavin, I can tell you for a fact that Deutschmark istself has not been forgotten either.
As a matter of fact Germans I talk to yearn for its return. More&more.
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FreebornJogn wrote: "If the eurozone breaks up the credibility of the federalist clique behind the euro will be destroyed but nothing more."
And I think Mz. Merkel mispoke:
Not european values will fail, merely a value of euro will fall.
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"And with it fails the idea of European values and unity."
One of the Europe greatest atribute is the spirit of innovation. And we don't see recently anything innovative coming from panels of European politicians. How to organize a society of weak and strong entities? How to resolve the borrowing-lending relationship to the benefit of all? Should Germany pay or not? Should Ireland subdue to the hierarchy of money? Should the money make the world go round?
Whether to be a purely common market, or an union of higher prospectives, they simply don't know what to do effectivelly. How to operate in a crisis? They don't have an idea. And that is what is not European. The power of constitutive parts, the number of states, or the area of the surface comprehended, has not been enough.
Until the EU is not able to offer a solution for the WORLD financial crisis, and any other crisis, the EU practically insists to play the supporting role. We could hardly image (again) world and his wife waiting for closed-minded struggles to be resolved.
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This crisis started with Greece. For years EU bureaucrats failed to check corruption among Greek officials. Vast amounts of money were pumped into non-existent farms, businesses and building projects. Greek governments did not tax properly because EU taxpayers were ready with their paychecks. How suitable was Greece to be an EU-member when culturally it was Middle eastern/Ottoman? The same errors were made but to a lesser degree with Portugal, Ireland and Spain. Ireland may be rescued, but EU voters must demand fundamental structural reforms to countries being rescued, to ensure this doesn't happen again
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British Chancellor George Osborne said the UK was "ready to support Ireland".
"We're going to do what is in Britain's national interest," he said, ahead of the meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council (Ecofin).
"Ireland is our closest neighbour and it's in Britain's national interest that the Irish economy is successful and we have a stable banking system."
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Maxsceptic: I love the shrill panic of Hermann von Rumpey.
He is, alas, wrong. Like a cockroach, it seems the EU will survive most anything.
Rats are already preparing an escape form a sinking ships:
Austria has refused so far to contribute any of its money to the Greece bail-our package.
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Although I have said this before elsewhere I think it is worth repeating.
Greece, Spain and Ireland all have different problems (although the symptons looks similar) and so the solutions will be different. Apologies to Portugal but I do not know enough about that country to comment and in any case economically it is too small to worry about.
Greece is a complete failure at every level. Govt spending was uncontrolled, fraud throughout the system, the private sector crushed and then crushed again by an uncompetitive exchange rate. If Greece was a company then it would be wound up. The only sensible solution to Greece is to throw them out of the Euro and let them fend for themselves. In fact I would suspend them from the EU until they get their act together.
Ireland is fundamentally a decent economy that has taken on far too much debt. They also went on a mad property boom which just increased debt. If this was a company then the obvious solution would be to write off some debt and maybe swap some of it into equity (how one acquires equity in a country escapes me). On this basis the obvious solution for Ireland will involve debt write off.
Spain is different again. Yes they have too much debt but fundamentally they are what, in companies, is referred to as an operational failure. It is a good economy, sophisticated management that has been laden with tons and tons of legislation crippling the private sectors ability to grow. Spain wanted the very best euro socialist structures before they had the ability to afford them. The solution for Spain will involve removing many layers of legislation (which should assist youth employment) which will reduce cost to business and will result in many civil servants no longer being needed. Spain has world class businesses and great connections in Latin America, what is needed is to let them make money.
3 countries, 3 different problems, 3 different solutions.
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78. At 10:43am on 17 Nov 2010, BaronDuarte wrote:
"""This crisis started with Greece."""
Really? Does Greece (an economy of about 2,5% of Eurozone, 1% of EU) have this capacity to do such marvelous things? Does it know other tricks too?
"""For years EU bureaucrats failed to check corruption among Greek officials."""
What are you mumbling at? Greece till 70s be it with its problems was a functioning state. As soon as it enterred the EU corruption flew high. Most interestingly - out of every 2 financial crimes, in the 1 there is an EU player, most times Germany. Need to remember Siemens? Need to remember "last vote for Athens 2004"? Need to remember the "bridge, marvel of the technology, in the middle of nowhere"?. So give us a break and go check again before commenting.
"""Vast amounts of money were pumped into non-existent farms, businesses and building projects."""
Yes. When it is raining money none would ever keep an umbrella, people are like that, it is not only Greeks. Yet, in reality it was a party-centered oligarchy that got the shower, not the vast mass of the Greek people who remained underpaid, overworked and underprotected. It can be said that the indirectly benefited rise up to some 20-25% of the Greek people, really a lot but then far less than sufficient to call it "All Greeks sucked up money". The other 80% of loser Greeks' main base of richness was their relative high state of ownership (i.e. most Greeks owned some little piece of land and had their own house). This is what has been under attack.
"""Greek governments did not tax properly because EU taxpayers were ready with their paychecks."""
Which the EU was giving directly to the precise people who were not paying their taxes properly.... please please... complete your phrases.
"""How suitable was Greece to be an EU-member"""
No. Ask it the other way round. How suitable was EU to call in Greece by the way? Working with Greece is not for the amateurs of geopolitics and Europeans proved to be worse than amateurs.
"""... when culturally it was Middle eastern/Ottoman?"""
Aaahhh... the Ottomans! However you seem to ignore that the Ottomans actually were excellent tax collectors and not a single turkish "grossi" was forgotten when asking the taxes to be paid. You paid with your money otherwise you paid with your head. So what about Ottomans, really?
Now Greece became Middle East? When Greece fights your wars, it is western. When Greece wants to work with Russians it becomes Eastern Europe, when Greece does not pays its taxes it becomes Middle Eastern.
Really... whatever....
"""The same errors were made but to a lesser degree with Portugal, Ireland and Spain. Ireland may be rescued, but EU voters must demand fundamental structural reforms to countries being rescued, to ensure this doesn't happen again"""
Forget Portugal and Spain and go to Ireland. It is not Mediterranean, it is not Middle Eastern, it is was not ruled by the Ottomans, it did not have Greece's corruption, it did not adopt Greece's pseudo-socialist policies, it did attract lots of supposedly healthy investment, it had a liberal state, a lightweight state etc. etc.
... so how on earth did Ireland end up in a similar financial situation as Greece?
Answer this one first before answering anything else. Some issues seem to surpass your critical ability.
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threnodio_II wrote:
#32 - Pate
Which continent would that be?
Sorry, can't stop. Have to get the Cumberland sausages off the back seat of the Jag before they defrost. It is unusually warm for the time of year in Hungary.
You may try pate de foie gras while listening to phonograph records on a Pathe Freres gramophone.
[of course bubble and squeak is always a good alternative]
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#55 EUspammer209456731
You seem to me like the poltergeist Jorg Haider's spirit searching for a revenge against EU in regards to the 1999 EU FPÖ party sanctions. Anyway...you said that: just don't want to be in a political or financial union with them (Greeks)
I have good news for you...with equal friendly way i confirm that I don't want you either (where ever or what ever you are) as well as the people representing the same policy of yours.
Come out, tell us who you actually are and you will see that you will have a quick deal with me...
Generally speaking: Start asking for a referendum about all EU matters. If you can't do so, is because you have serious democratic issues to your country so it's not EU problem but a national one. If you can ask for a referendum and you don't do it then again it's yours national problem and so you better shut up and leave the subject to your politicians. Now, at the time it seems we all leave EU matters to yours and mine politicians (rightly or wrongly)...spamming like a moron (EU rats, out from EU etc. garbage talk)...you obtain nothing more than my contempt but after all isn't it that you are looking for?
As for the "Austria tells Greece to get stuffed" link of you...actually had only one night lifetime. They already change it...seem it was only another EU big brother crying daily story.
#59 Huaimek
Italians don't like euros as paper money and coins? And that must be a good point for leaving EU? As Italians say: Boh!!!
Btw are you sure you actually lived in Italy? The worst European currency was the lira. Awful printed with plenty of zeros and in order to have only 1 euro you needed a lot of coins in your hand.
The majority of the Italians hated the Euro? Are you sure your friends were actually Italians? Never heard a single thing of the hundreds of Italians i had and have the pleasure to interact.
The only thing Italians hated about Euro was speculation (Doubling) by their own people.
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Problem is, what Ireland's government says is just not credible.
They started off claiming the 'cheapest' bailout in the world. They then repeatedly and consistently understated the levels of losses at the banks.
That they now claim not to need a bailout is more likely the result of another underestimation than a realistic assessment.
The hubris of the whole Celtic tiger thing has made humiliation inevitable. They need to eat their humble pie, with sauerkraut on the side.
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81. At 10:55am on 17 Nov 2010, Justin150 wrote:
"""Although I have said this before elsewhere I think it is worth repeating.Greece, Spain and Ireland all have different problems (although the symptons looks similar) and so the solutions will be different."""
We all acknowledge this.
"""Greece is a complete failure at every level."""
True.
"""Govt spending was uncontrolled, fraud throughout the system, the private sector crushed and then crushed again by an uncompetitive exchange rate."""
Yet ALL that occured AFTER entry in the EU and the start of the interaction with our European collegues. Prior to that, Greece had been still a country hugely interfered by British, then Americans but as a state it was fairly ok, with acceptable levels of corruption (in comparison to the contemporary as well as current west European levels), with a lighweight state that provided nicely the basics, with a population producing more than was consuming and with many aces in their pockets.
"""If Greece was a company then it would be wound up. The only sensible solution to Greece is to throw them out of the Euro and let them fend for themselves. In fact I would suspend them from the EU until they get their act together."""
That is absolutely fine for Greeks. But first Greeks will ask:
1) The cancellation of all accords signed during 2010. That means that the debts up to 2009 would be analysed and the Greek state would comply to pay only those that were taken by legal ways. The illegal ones would be automatically annulated and the lenders (often Germany, France etc.) would have to go to the courts and find the individual responsibles (mostly found outside Greece by they way - take the insiders here too, it would do us a favour!). As such, automatially Greece would actually at half its overall debt as well as limiting the respective deficit. Then with a couple of Russian and Chinese loans at rates that not even Germany can enjoy, Greeks would surface back in no time!!!!
2) The annulation of the signature of Greece for more than 80% of EU agreements. I.e. Greece shall close its borders, put taxes to imports, favour Russian investements and buy only Chinese, introduce Chinese investments locally, introduce Russian commercial and military bases and construct Russian pipelines offering Italy rates that no other can offer.
How about that? I am telling you that the above case is the ideal for Greece. I only know that neither the US nor the Europeans would ever allow that and as such I am obliged to comment accordingly. So start commenting accordingly you too. In theory everything is easy, what we do in practice is the question.
"""Ireland is fundamentally a decent economy that has taken on far too much debt. They also went on a mad property boom which just increased debt. If this was a company then the obvious solution would be to write off some debt and maybe swap some of it into equity (how one acquires equity in a country escapes me). On this basis the obvious solution for Ireland will involve debt write off."""
Wait a minute. You are talking impossibly!!!!
You just bashed out Greece, then here you say that there is nothing fundamendally wrong with Ireland....
Op op op... wait wait wait...
stop and ponder:
1) Ireland is a smaller, more neat nation which is in one of the most safe positions in Europe prone to no geostrategic danger (apart dealing with the question of Northern Ireland but I am not sure how that affect them). Greece lives in the worst neighbourhood of Europe and is under constant threat of war - very promising to healthy long term investments isn't it?
2) Ireland is a smaller, flatter more easy to handle country than Greece with its with its hugely difficult terrain, 3000 islands and 10,000 mountains. Ireland cost of investement is inherently smaller than the one in Greece. (eg. the same public project that in Ireland costs 10-15 million, in Greece it might cost from anything of 25 to 30 million). Try building a train railway or a road in Ireland, then come do it in Greece and we speak later.
3) Ireland in comparison to Greece has no defense budget at all, Greece has an overly big, overly expensive army that - kind of saying - can make war to Spain, Italy, Austria, Belgium, Holland, Ireland, Danmark, Sweden and beat them terribly.
4) Greece indeed has a supersized state which is alone expensive and become double expensive with the cultivated by the PASOK-ND governments corruption.
5) Ireland has a lean lightweight state based on liberal approaches. As such the state expenditures were inherently minimal.
BUT
Ireland ended up having the same level of debt as Greece....
And you claim that Ireland is a decent economy?
I think this is not different of other western viewpoints like the typical one according to which when westerners rush in battle following the command of their leaders, they are heros, they are patriots, they are free men fighting for freedom. When Asiatics & Middle Easterners rush in battle they are just fanatics, they are slaves of their masters, they are terrorists.
So please tell me, who really went on a mad loaning spree?
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59 Haimek writes:
"The majority hated the Euro , just a worthless bit of paper and silly coins too small to handle . I guarantee that if you asked most ordinary people right across Europe , they would choose to return to their own currency."
What, to their Mickey Mouse currencies like the lira, peseta or drachma or lev?
You live in cloud cuckoo land.
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ukwales this one's for you.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-11766193
{I particularly liked the bit about a new nuclear power plant as a job creator in those hard times :)]
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To Nik
I was referring to the Greece's ottoman /middle eastern "baksheesh" mentality. Greece was in the ottoman empire for 400 years. Greece never played a part in any of Europe's cultural and political revolutions. In that sense Russia is much more "European" than Greece. The EU admitted Greece probably out of geopoplitical considerations, as Greece was unstable politically for some years.
The crisis started with Greece as we all know. Partly caused by Greek government's failure to tax its people in order to win votes and EU bureaucrats failing to check on corruption among Greek officials. This then triggered a crisis of confidence among debt-laden and/or uncompetitive economies -Ireland, Spain and Portugal
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#82 Nik
--✄-- Forget Portugal and Spain and go to Ireland. It is not Mediterranean, it is not Middle Eastern, it is was not ruled by the Ottomans, it did not have Greece's corruption, it did not adopt Greece's pseudo-socialist policies, it did attract lots of supposedly healthy investment, it had a liberal state, a lightweight state etc. etc.
... so how on earth did Ireland end up in a similar financial situation as Greece? --✄--
They proudly had the British and US "made in China" gleaming investments
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#87 Margaret Howard
Yes , People had an affection for their " Mickey Mouse " currencies like the Italian Lira . Lira notes were often scrabbled up and fairly disgusting unless you got new ones . You might have like to have the Euro , but most British people prefer Sterling , no matter what .
When I went to live in Italy I got L3,000 to the British pound , everything was so cheap . within a year of introducing the Euro the cost of living rose 30% and subsequently 100% before I left in 2006 .
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#78 BaronDuarte
--✄-- How suitable was Greece to be an EU-member when culturally it was Middle eastern/Ottoman? --✄--
How ignorant could you be yourself? Greece is Europe.
It's like telling to you father: I, YOUR CHILD, FORBID YOU USING MY SURNAME!
what can i say it's "burlesque time thread"...full of entertainment parodies and sometimes grotesque exaggerations.
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I am a native of the European continent yes the EU represent only part of the European continent bat is the only hope we have to maintain our traditions - social value and history.
Yes the Euro and the EU are parts of the the same parcel one can not survive with out the other.
Let us look wot as happen in the pass 20/30 years:
Our economic are dictated by the credit agency and fiscal policy in the USA
Our traditional food is disappearing and replaced by trash from the USA
and ect.ect..............................
I am a European not a US citizen our history is over 2000 years old the US is about 200/250 years old it was born by the law of the gun they live
by the law of the gun and the bully of rest of the world.
If this is you type of life OK let us destroy the only institution which can prevent the above.
This is not me i am a European a EU citizen and proud of IT.
John
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#86
"You just bashed out Greece, then here you say that there is nothing fundamendally wrong with Ireland...."
Ireland is massively over exposed to US IT firms, Dell, Intel etc. What happens when those firms see better opportunities in Eastern Europe as Dell have? Dell alone contributed 5% of Irelands GDP.I'm looking for references to confirm this, but i believe I read that only 10% of Irish exports are indigenously created. They are built on sand. If there is any more of this then they are in big trouble:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article5477814.ece
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Re #93
17 Nov 2010, john writes:
"I am a native of the European continent yes the EU represent only part of the European continent bat is the only hope we have to maintain our traditions - social value and history."
And,
"I am a European not a US citizen our history is over 2000 years old the US is about 200/250 years old it was born by the law of the gun they live
by the law of the gun and the bully of rest of the world.
If this is you type of life OK let us destroy the only institution which can prevent the above.
This is not me i am a European a EU citizen and proud of IT."
Well John, those 2,000 years of European history do involve the odd gunfight exceeding the brief encounters at Bull Run, Gettysburg, and indeed the OK Corral!
And, Your political construct 'EU' is less than 20 years old - - which means in the general run of things from a Historic perspective it is barely a footnote to European history at this moment - - and as for the 'social value' aspect if Your hostile attitude to the USA is anything to go by then EU Europeans still have some way to go before they'll manage to sit in peace and harmony with each other or any other area of the World.
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#93. At 1:02pm on 17 Nov 2010, john
There are always more than one way to skin a cat, as the saying goes, in the case of the EU, the mandarins want a federal 'one size fits all' approach, but there are other equally as effective ways. One such is that of a confederation of Sovereign states, that eliminates the need for an undemocratic dictatorship that the EU is fast becoming. As for the Euro, well if the convergence criteria for entry had been observed there would have been very few indeed in the Eurozone. The dissimilar economies like Greece and Ireland need to withdraw somehow.
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89. At 11:51am on 17 Nov 2010, BaronDuarte wrote:
"""To Nik
I was referring to the Greece's ottoman /middle eastern "baksheesh" mentality. Greece was in the ottoman empire for 400 years."""
Yes there are habbites that may remain from the Ottoman Empire but then when I read ancient history and middle ages history I see the same things so really I do not think the baksheesh was any major innovation of the Ottomans, hehe... Frankly, the baksheesh is the alternative system in the absence of a feudalist (in more ancient times) or aristocrat/technocrat system in more recent times as those found in the bulk of western Europe. In reality, if you check the likes of Germany, there is in real numbers much more widespread corruption, yet the bulk of it occurs on the higher level, under the table, in closed rooms and Germans learn nothing out of it. Much of it is done oversees (like in the case of a large number of German corporations not only feeding the corruption in countries like Greece but actually pushing for the creation of more of it - wanna remember the previous PASOK government and PM Simitis? The Olympics? Greek state telecoms and electricity... where to start and where to finish? Even Mercedes was bribing to sell its cars and that despite being the car of preference of the corrupted ones for their daily transportation (for weekends they have rather better taste, Italian cars... you know).
"""Greece never played a part in any of Europe's cultural and political revolutions."""
"""In that sense Russia is much more "European" than Greece."""
Ehehe, I know how you say that and you have your logic. However, keep in mind that the last thing on matters of "logos" is to the Greeks - even the Koran accepts it so saying that "Greeks always rise back in the end" haha! No seriously: it is us defining things: we defined what is east and what is west and the world thinks of east and west with the center being our Aegean motherland, nor Greenwich, New York or Mecca or something. So yes, we defined Europe and we take it back if you like - we might find another foreign tourist chick to call the continent, let us say Angela or Carla.
"""The EU admitted Greece probably out of geopoplitical considerations, as Greece was unstable politically for some years."""
Precisely. And Karamanlis the elder, back then pushed for joining the EU for precisely the same reasons trying to explain to Greeks that this would serve in dealing with Greece's geopolitical deficit after the vicious US and British attack (did not count however that in the meanwhile Britain had also just joined... Karamanlis had done his demand in the late 1950s, and pushed in the early 1960s at a time Britain's entry was inconceivable under a firm De Gaul).
"""The crisis started with Greece as we all know."""
If we see it superficially yes. But in reality the crisis started when Americans started playing the guitar and Jeffrey his bouzouki (anyway he hardly speaks well Greek, so he does not play bouzouki very well either, he can dance though... ooo he can dance well! Particularly belly dance along with his eastern friends of his country, US by all means!).
"""Partly caused by Greek government's failure to tax its people in order to win votes and EU bureaucrats failing to check on corruption among Greek officials. This then triggered a crisis of confidence among debt-laden and/or uncompetitive economies -Ireland, Spain and Portugal"""
So be it Greece or Portugal or Ireland or any other... do you really think that if it would be not triggered that way, European countries could go on eternally under the same level of debt? Do you think there are people out there giving the money expecting to get them back in 1000 years time or something?
1+1=2.
I do return the discussion to the hot point.
Ok, we all know Greece's failing points in its economy that made it debt-dependent. But what about Ireland. Why such a vastly diffentiated economy became equally indebted?
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#93 John
The EU is part of the Global Movement . It is Globalisation that is opening European countries to the influences and corruptions of the USA .
The EU is the ruination of Europe as it once was .
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If the governments would give back to the banks the bad loans that are now owned by the public the debt would be reduced and manageable. The banks are flush with cash. The continued shoring up of the wealth of banking stockholders at the expense of economic growth remains unjustifiable. I believe it was a Rothchild who said that as long as they controlled the money they did not care who was running the countries.
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Re #97
"..after the vicious US and British attack (on Greece).."
Yes, I'm sure like me there are many who recall this traumatic event:
I believe the entire US Mediterranean Fleet aided & abetted by Royal Navy Squadron out of Gibraltar bombarded Athens & other notable Greek ports for several days, casualties were horrendous...
In the UNO Security Council the US & UK vetoed a scathing condemnation of this outrageous criminal act by the 2 powers.
To this day there is an annual pilgrimage to the memorial site of the mass slaughter of the innocent greek men, women & children.
The EUropean Union hasn't had diplomatic relations with the USA or UK since that dreadful page in the History of the Aegean.
Then I fell off my bed, awoke and realised, amazingly... Greece is still there!
Thus conclusively proving when we add 1 Greek's nightmare to 1 bit of reality it is everyone else's script for another diabolical Hollywood movie spectacular.
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94. At 1:28pm on 17 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:
""""#86
"You just bashed out Greece, then here you say that there is nothing fundamendally wrong with Ireland...."
Ireland is massively over exposed to US IT firms, Dell, Intel etc. What happens when those firms see better opportunities in Eastern Europe as Dell have? Dell alone contributed 5% of Irelands GDP.I'm looking for references to confirm this, but i believe I read that only 10% of Irish exports are indigenously created. They are built on sand. If there is any more of this then they are in big trouble:"""
Precisely Champagne Charlie... that is where I want to end up (and evidently I am in no mood to bash Ireland, a country and a people I like very much).
I will repeat again and again to make it clear:
What you say right now above (and it is 100% correct!) is that we have the following weird mathematic equation:
Debt of Ireland
hich:
Is a small neat counry, positioned in a geopolitically safe area, with minimal expenditure of defense sector, easy to maintain, cheap to deploy infrastructure with its flag lands, with a still relatively young population, which at least in the 20th century did not suffer wars and catastrophies, which is english speaking (language of business), which chose to have a small, liberal, lean state with few obligations towards its citizens, which had relatively low corruption, which became a major pole of attraction of healty
............=== e - q = u = a = l = s ===............
Debt of Greece
which:
Is a small extremely mountainous, extremely islanding country, most expensive to deploy infrastructure, that suffered more wars than any other countries in the past century, that suffered a genocide in WWI, a second genocide in WWII (losing 15% of its overall population when Germany lost less than 10%) then followed by a foreign imposed civil war, that was manipulated and interefered and had two successive dictatorships, and military attacks by its... allied neighbour, that is positioned in the geopolitically still most sensitive corner of Europe, surrounded by the worst neighbours you can have 3 out of 4 having open and direct territorial demands and the one actually militarily attacking it, thus being forced to maintain a hugely sized and super high-tech military (to the extend of funnily being able to trash the first 5-6 EU countries after France and Britain... 5-6 them together & Germany included), that followed a pseudo-socialist model which overburdened unecessarily the state expenditure killing all internal production and kicking out all healthy local and foreign investments all while topping the whole catastrophic mix with huge amounts of widespread corruption.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I am stating this again and again since I want to make it crystal clear:
What we say here is that the US (or of whatever otger origin) foreign investements in Ireland - be it perceived as "healthy investment attracted by an investment-friendly Ireland", had actually the same catastrophic results as all those innumerable bad things seen in the case of Greece....
I find this super-hyper extremely shocking.
And most shocking is the relative easy that you pass this information when this is at the very heart of the deeper reasons of the sickness of EU and member countries as well as the key to the comeback and solution to the problem.
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As I read more and more about this "fear and the euro", I believe that
"panic" IS the right word. Panic in the UK and especially in the United States, but the "panic" is about China!
This panic started when China visited the EU. China promised its help to any and all of the EU PIIGS so wounded by the American derivative market and negative betting against sovereign debt.
Premier Hu Jintao committed China to "concrete measures” to help Ireland. When ireland returns to the bond market, June, 2011, China will buy its bonds. (China does not want any more American bonds. I wonder why.)
Premier Hu Jintao committed China to "concrete measures” to help Portugal, struggling to with its sovereign debt crisis. China committed to purchase the Portuguese sovereign debt. (Not bet against it as some American investment banks have done and will continue to do.)
China’s Hu has been all over the place - France, Portugal...In fact, China and Portugal signed a number of bilateral commercial deals, including joint ventures in the fast-growing economies of Brazil and Angola.
China's Hu: “We are ready to take concrete measures to help all EU countries to overcome the global financial crisis.” (This will happen, I'll bet over the dead body of the United States of America. It may be the reason that suddenly, American good pal, the UK decided it might help Ireland!)
Fu Ying, China’s Deputy FM said China was committed to investing in European bonds and was ready to buy any and all EU bonds that hit the market, including those from Ireland, expected shortly after June, 2011.
With this Chinese offer no EU country will need or seek financial support from the European Union and especially NOT the IMF.
José Vieira da Silva, Portugal’s Economy Minister, has gratiously accepted China’s interest in buying the Portuguese sovereign debt.
Basílio Horta, Head of Portugal’s Investment & Trade Agency, said China’s desire for Portuguese bonds would send a positive signal to other potential investors. (And turn the American stomach!)
China wants to diversify the Chinese sovereign debt portfolio, which right now is too heavily vested in the US. In fact, word has it that China wants no part of more American bonds.
The EU knows that Asian investors, including China, have already purchased 5% of a Portuguese debt issue in February and another 19.5% in March. So Asia, especially Chins mean business.
China has bought some Spanish bonds and has made an offer to buy Greek government debt when Athens resumes issuing bonds for purchase.
China and Portugal are working towards DOUBLING their bilateral trade within 5 years. Also, Millennium BCP, Portugal’s biggest bank, signed an agreement to increase co-operation with Industrial and Commercial Bank of China.
There is another accord which has been signed (about which I know little) that will act towards the mutual benefit of China, Portugal, Angola and Mozambique (former Portuguese colonies).
So
1. The fear is about China buying any and all EU bonds that go onto the market.
2. The panic is that China will get a whopping foothold in the EU market.
You can bet this is driving the United States nuts!
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#97
"But what about Ireland. Why such a vastly diffentiated economy became equally indebted?"
The short-term reason is the same as in the UK. Profligate bank lending , betting on a never-ending property boom.
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100. At 2:19pm on 17 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
Re #97
"..after the vicious US and British attack (on Greece).."
CBW, Britain had assasinated both Cypriots as well as citizens of Greece all while permitting Turkey to import weapons for MIT. Then both of them pushed for dictatorship in Greece and when the dictator that finally rose did not do their tricks, they pushed for his change by organising (that was Americans mostly) the Polytechnic uprising of the leftish (that today govern Greece led still by the same family that British imposed in 1945 to start the civil war...). The new US-backed dictator was pushed to create trouble in Cyprus (only after having been ordered to empty it from the bulk of the Greek troops) to give a pretext to Turks invade the island, all while the British happily monitored the situation among Turkish ranks if not participating directly themselves. Today happy British buy the Greek cleansed or murdered peoples' houses from the invading Turks.
If all that was not a vicious attack by US and Britain then what was it?
Should we consider you allies or something? You tend to treat your friends like that or something? Nice manners you have there dear!
"""Thus conclusively proving when we add 1 Greek's nightmare to 1 bit of reality it is everyone else's script for another diabolical Hollywood movie spectacular."""
Leave the rubbish and go to the issue:
How do you explain Ireland's debt.
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Re102: .... you are getting closer!
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OK Brits cough up !
--and not only for your doctor !
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"You can bet this is driving the United States nuts!"
Nope it does not.[dream on comrades, dream on!]
But printing extra 600 BILLION greenbacks (por starters) to give China some of its own medicine has created quite a furore in Chinese Politbureau.
[Yes, two can pay this game.:)]
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#58 C_C
A low Euro helps all of Europe.
But not necessarily those who export flags !
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Yesterday, Turkey's media reveled to Germans another successful immigration technique:
.-.________ ╔════════════════════╗
----/ \_)_______) Turkish technique 10
( ()___) code name:
()__) The Last of the Mohicans
----\___()_) ╚════════════════════╝
you can find the other 1 to 8 techniques here: Archive and number 9 here: Archive
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#107 Powermeerkat
It is national policy of the USA to have a cheap currency -- it is angry that China is playing the same game !
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#108
"A low Euro helps all of Europe"
It certainly helps the nation whose extra-EU exports are more than the rest of the Eurozone combined. The Brits call it "I'm all right Jack, sod the rest".
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17 Nov 2010, Nik writes:
100. At 2:19pm on 17 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote: Re #97
"..after the vicious US and British attack (on Greece).."
CBW, Britain had assasinated both Cypriots as well as citizens of Greece all while permitting Turkey to import weapons for MIT. Then both of them pushed for dictatorship in Greece and when the dictator that finally rose did not do their tricks, they pushed for his change by organising (that was Americans mostly) the Polytechnic uprising of the leftish (that today govern Greece led still by the same family that British imposed in 1945 to start the civil war...). The new US-backed dictator was pushed to create trouble in Cyprus (only after having been ordered to empty it from the bulk of the Greek troops) to give a pretext to Turks invade the island, all while the British happily monitored the situation among Turkish ranks if not participating directly themselves. Today happy British buy the Greek cleansed or murdered peoples' houses from the invading Turks.
If all that was not a vicious attack by US and Britain then what was it?
Erm, at a polite guess it is the tediously unsubstantiated, unverified hypothesis of a bloke who still believes when he was aged 10 he was in contact with the most secret 'November 17' greek terrorist group.
Now, I must get back to this fascinatingly accurate article on the 'Lancaster bomber' on the moon.
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80. At 10:54am on 17 Nov 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"""Rats are already preparing an escape form a sinking ships:
Austria has refused so far to contribute any of its money to the Greece bail-our package."""
Speaking of rats, if Austria did so, then Greece has only to provide the Greek citizenship to some 2 million illegal immigrants that were enforced upon Greece after the Maastricht treaty...(most of them of that sort Austrians would immensely love) and put them in ships straight on to Venice and form there by feet to Austria (Italians are specialists in moving them foward...)!
Perhaps that might be more convincing in telling Austrians to pay... hahah
(I find this amusing! But I do agree with Austrians, Greece, Spain or France and Britain... why pay?).
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#111 C_C
Everybody can join -the more the merrier !
THAT you cannot accuse the un-named member of doing --if you are objective !
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17 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie writes:
Re #108
"A low Euro helps all of Europe"
It certainly helps the nation whose extra-EU exports are more than the rest of the Eurozone combined. The Brits call it "I'm all right Jack, sod the rest".
Think You'll find C_C the actual wording by Britons is, "I'm alright Fritz, sod the zone!"
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112. At 4:17pm on 17 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
"""Erm, at a polite guess it is the tediously unsubstantiated, unverified hypothesis of a bloke who still believes when he was aged 10 he was in contact with the most secret 'November 17' greek terrorist group.""""
It is not my fault that I have a talkative distant relative who back then was working for the Greek anti-terrorist police (he is not active today). He had not given my father any names and addresses or something. There was a discussion and I happened to be in front. He just commented vaguely on the news - back then it was the first big time murder of 17 November, that of Pavlos Bakoyannis, husband of Dora Bakoyanni, daughter of Mitsotakis so most people actually were discussing that 17 November was linked to PASOK. That is all. All I said is that I happened to know the rought location (i.e. an ex-academic in France using differential passports) of 1 of the terrorists that supposedly the Greek police as well as the US secret agencies were as-if searching for nearly 30 years. I never said that made me a James Bond or something.
As for the unverified hypothesis, well, you can view it like that if it aids your cosmotheorisis. However, the question is for you - prior to searching such matters - to ask yourself whether you would be ready to admit that there is a reality behind what I say or if you would keep on trying to convince yourself that it did not happen that way.
All hypothesis are on my side, what you have in your side is only "globally official standard history" and it should be clear to you that it alone is actually by itself the most feeble position of all.
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#115 CBW
-- Flag poles are also not selling well ?
--business will pick up as the marriage approaches ---have you ordered yours ?
--or do you still have the family heirloom from the Victoria marriage ?
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Correction Coll-Brush-Work
First the treaty of Rome sign on 1957 was the birth place of the political union of the 6 original members this was and is the final goal.
Second i am not hostile to the USA bat i do not wot be told haw to run my life/country.
A baby should look to the older people to learn about life and no the reverse.
A young person from the USA which i met on my travel i told me all young
people from the USA should be sent to Europe learn history and culture as the USA is lack of both.
John
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#117 CBW
---BBC has just reported --- souvenirs are NOW on sale !
---Rush, Rush, Rush -- How THRILLING !
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Re #106, 110, 114, 117 & 119
plus, #97, 101, 104, 113 & 116
2 howling at the moon in unison cannot be a coincidence!
I hadn't realised until now there was the possibility of contagion on this blog!
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#120 CBW
---typical, trying to get two for the price of one !
Congratulations, another bargain -- FIRST matched and then hatched !
You win again -- and you are proud of it !
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Re #121
With literally and metaphysically nothing to beat pride doesn't come into it.
Only a very tiny satisfaction at a job well done.
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#117 #119
quietoaktree;
You arent fooling anyone. Given the amount of time you spend glued to the BBC, and trawling every online British newspaper to scrape together scraps of information to feed your obsession, you WILL be watching the royal wedding. I hope the self-flagellation afterwards wont be too painful for you.
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#93 john
"I am a European not a US citizen our history is over 2000 years old the US is about 200/250 years old it was born by the law of the gun they live
by the law of the gun and the bully of rest of the world."
Forgive my presumption, but it sounds to me as if you may possess a bit of an inferiority complex judging from your particular words. Yes, the U.S is quite young compared to Europe, but I think it is rather admirable how an errant colony could become a global player in the span of 200 years.
However,the most startling criticism you give makes me shake my head in disbelief. You claim the U.S is powerful due to its bullying ways, and yet you make no mention of Europe's own colonial past. As far as I see it, it is rather hypocritical to judge a nation like the U.S for living by "the law of the gun", when Europe had no such qualms of doing so when in power. Mind you, I do not have anything against Europe, but I am simply pointing out the flaws in your argument.
#118 A young person from the USA which i met on my travel i told me all young
people from the USA should be sent to Europe learn history and culture as the USA is lack of both.
I'm not sure if you realize how condescending your words sound. If you could enlighten me as to what aspect of European history or culture you feel would be beneficial to the growth of the U.S, I am certainly all ears.
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John
Re #118
Correction to Your correction, mate.
The Treaty of Rome, 1957 was the founding treaty of the European Economic Community.
There was no EUropean Union mentioned anywhere in the text.
The EU is a political-construct resulting from the Maastricht Treaty, 1992 which formerly created the Treaty on EUropean Union.
That political-construct has never had the approval or consent of any of the original 6 EEC founding Nations' Citizens nor any of the expanded 12.
More recent member States' Citizens voted to join the EU, but they represent less than 40% of the Population of the EU.
Similarly, all the Treaties amending the original Maastricht Treaty have never had the Citizens' Electoral approval or consent.
2 Nations, Spain & Luxembourg, approved the defunct 'Constitution' by Referendum in 2005-6; and 1 Nation, Ireland, at the 2nd attempt approved the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.
You can be as proud as You like of the EU, but Your pride is misplaced in a demonstrably anti-Democratic and largely Un-Democratic entity which 500+million Citizens have never given their consent to be bound by during the last 18 years since its inception.
Fear of what the EUropean Citizenry really think about the EU is why Brussels has avoided any Referenda (except when forced - - even then the 1st Referendum failed the EU!): The EU 'Constitution' was rejected by 2 of those 6 'founding Nations' 2005-6, Netherlands & France.
I'm take pride in those Citizens standing up & refusing the propaganda & political chicanery of the EU that urged acceptance of the EU as a fait accompli.
Plainly it is of benefit to everyone if there is exchange of cultural experience: I know EUropeans who would benefit from a period spent in North America just as some Americans really do need to get out more in the World without being in uniform.
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#123 C_C
To be truthful, the death of Diana shocked me --especially the way it was handled.
The decision of the French government with respect to the hounding French journalists --I smelled a rat !
-- I have no conspiracy theories --but still smell a rats existence !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So, english people, like to blame the Greek. How about now when EU is saving Ireland banks and UKs bank savings. How about now? Is EU good or not?
I can't see USA and dollar to coming to help the Irish banks and irish people. Is EU good on not, you english EU-traitors with your lousy pound speculators? What?
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#42 threnodio_II wrote:
''Sorry, can't stop. Have to get the Cumberland sausages off the back seat of the Jag''
You still have the Jag, good for you. Never ever heard about Cumberland sausages, my bad, maybe, maybe not?
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#126
quietoaktree;
" I have no conspiracy theories --but still smell a rats existence !"
Yeah, you're right there.
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I relate that the May 2010 EU Finance Ministers’ Summit announced a sacrifice of national sovereignty to preserve the integrity of the Euro. The Leaders’ announcement established a unified economic, political, fiscal, monetary and seigniorage cash aid package for Greece. Now that assistance appears to be in peril, and the risk of sovereign debt default, and of failed national Treasury auctions, as well as rising interest rates for both corporations and governments looms large. And the risk of substantial competitive currency devaluation, at the hands of currency traders is intensifying by the day ..... Ambrose Evans Pritchard in a recent Telegraph article, used the word “Götterdämmerung“, a particularly apt word, to describe the apparent fatal wound to the world’s financial, economic and political systems which is coming soon, as bond traders continue calling interest rates higher, such as the US mortgage rates, and the Interest Rate on the US Government 30 Year US Treasury bond and the Interest Rate on Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece And Spain sovereign debt ; and as currency traders continue a global sell off of the world’s currencies, as both conduct a war for sovereignty against the world central bankers and world leaders ..... God was gracious to provide Revelation 13:3, which reveals that the soon coming apparent fatal wound to the world’s economic and political systems will be healed ..... But that it will come at the cost of the rise to power of a world Sovereign and also a world Seignior, the latter comes from Old English and means top dog banker who takes a cut ..... Out of the coming investment “flame out”, a global leader and a global banker will rise to establish order: a Sovereign and a Seignior will ascend to govern the world. Their word, will and way will be the law of the land superseding constitutional law and traditional rule of law that comes with national sovereignty ..... Perhaps Herman Van Rompuy will rise to be The Sovereign as the Afteramerica website relates that he has called for global governance: nation states are dead … The EU chief relates the belief that countries can stand alone, is a ‘lie and an illusion!’ ..... And perhaps Tony Blair, because of his business connections, will rise to be The Seignior … Or perhaps the Seignior will be Olli Rehn, one known for calling for calm as related by Ambrose Evans Pritchard in article Telegraph article Greek Rescue Frays as Irish Crisis Drags On. And yet again, The Seignior might be the co-chair of the Council on Foreign Relations, the CFR, Robert Rubin, who was US Treasury Secretary ..... All seigniorage will come and go through The Seignior: all sovereign wealth funds, and banks will report to him, as there will be unified regulation of banking globally as referred to, in the James Politi and Gillian Tett Financial Times article, NY Fed Chief Timothy Geithner In Push For Global Bank Framework ..... Soon there will be no national seigniorage anywhere as sovereign debt interest rates will explode to the point where there will be no buyers ..... This is already the case for Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain, as they have lost their seigniorage authority. Their fiscal needs are provided for by the ECB which buys their bond issues, as well as debt from their banks. The ECB is the sole lender to these nations. Currently the ECB is The European Seignior .....
Sovereign nations and their constitutions will be history, as principles of global governance working through regional economic and security pacts and leaders’ agreements will serve as the basis for regional currencies or a global currency ..... The Seignior’s financial and economic power will complement the military and political power of the Sovereign; and between the two they own the world “lock, stock and barrel” ..... The global bond and currency traders are now in control of the world’s financial markets. The bond traders have seized control of both long-term interest rates, such as the Interest Rate on The US 30 Year Government Bond, $TYX, and the rate on corporate and European sovereign debt and short term rates that were formerly under the control of the central bankers. Joe Weisenthal reports Mortgage Rates Just Hit A Four-Month High; his chart shows an explosive jump in mortgage rates in just the last few days. This on the market conviction that the debt of Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Grece and Spain cannot be repaid and that the Ben Bernanke US FOMC announcement of Quantative Easing constitutes monetization of debt. The currency traders have established themselves as the world’s sovereign governing power; their rule over the world governments began on November 5, 2010 when the Interest Rate on the 30 Year US Government Bond, $TYX, sustained above 4%, and as they sold the major currencies, DBV, and emerging market currencies, CEW, which called the US Dollar, $USD,for now higher
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Pate
Re #128
"So, english people, like to blame the Greek...
Is EU good on not, you english EU-traitors with your lousy pound speculators? What?"
IMO, the EU in general is rubbish: In particular it is Un-Democratic.
If You are looking for 'traitors' that dropped Greece in the deep hole it is in try Athen's Government Ministers & Accountants plus the useless EU-Brussels' ECB officials who allowed Greece to join the EUro-zone when it plainly did not match any of the Fiscal-Economic criteria to do so!
More importantly, if Ireland hadn't been so foolish as to join the EUro-zone it wouldn't be in the mess it is.
Apart from which the EU hasn't 'saved' Greece or Ireland or any other Nation as yet: They're trying to, but there's a long way to go.
Furthermore, it is the 'United Kingdom', not the 'English' - - how many more of You lousy 'English-haters' are going to emerge from the ether on these blogs - - and if Ireland is 'saved' from financial ruin then it will almost certainly involve the UK donating a great big chunk of the money for it to happen!?
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#128
Pate;
Quietoaktree reported smelling a rat...ten minutes after this post.
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"how many more of You lousy 'English-haters' "
It's not really the english haters or UK haters. It's more about EU haters. It seems to be easy to hate Greek and EU. But when EU comes to help save Irelands banks, why the heck do you still have nerve to COMPLAIN. Complain, complain and complain.
''it will almost certainly involve the UK donating a great big chunk of the mone''
Of course. What did you expect. It's your own backyard. Should EU clean it fully, your own mistakes. And do remember, your Yankee cousins do not help at all, nor they ever will. They are so very selfish with their dollars. But still UK and english are EU haters and US pro??
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theyenguy
Re #131
"..The Seignior’s financial and economic power will complement the military and political power of the Sovereign; and between the two they own the world “lock, stock and barrel” ....."
Hmm, all it needed was 'beware the ides of march!' and we'd all be going spoooooooooooooky!
As it is Nostrodamus of the Financial sector You aint, but it's a great read, please do write more along the same lines.
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"Merkel was close to having her coalition unwind when she agreed the first bail out. Having to go back and demand even more from German taxpayers may mean the end of her domestic political credibility."
Actually she is already near an alltime low for herself since she became chancellor. She was already overtaken by other members in her party (zu Guttenberg) in popularity (which hardly ever happens in Germany) and for the first time that I can recall the opposition has members that would win a direct election against her (Steinbrueck). Before the last election nobody was even in a position to drag half as many direct votes if the election had been a direct one.
However most of this comes from other decisions than the bail out e.g. going back to the highly disliked nuclear energy and her strong support for the train station in Stuttgart and in general giving away presents after presents to corporate companies and demanding more and more from taxpayers on the other side.
Just her luck that protests are much scracer here than they are in France else there could be riots already.
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For the present problem, who or what you hate makes no difference.
Germany has to be the Euro paymaster. What other possibility is there?
Amost every other Euro zone country spends (public plus private) more than it earns. However, it cannot print more money, it's in the Euro. It can borrow, but cannot borrow forever.
Germany runs at a profit, which, in part, arises from other countries losses. To make things work, it has either
- to donate some or all of its profit to the loss makers
or
- agree that Greece, Ireland et al can print as many Euros as they like.
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#134
"What did you expect. It's your own backyard. Should EU clean it fully, your own mistakes."
Are you honestly trying to say that the UK is to blame for Irelands financial problems? Seriously?
"And do remember, your Yankee cousins do not help at all, nor they ever will."
You want the US to bail out a Eurozone country?
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#134
Pate for brains;
"It seems to be easy to hate Greek and EU."
Indeed it does:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/05/bild-open-letter-greece-papandreou
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#132 - cool_brush_work
This from Newsnight tonight: "There have been unconfirmed reports that the UK is considering going it alone, offering billions of pounds of direct loans to the Irish Republic to ease its economic crisis.
Chancellor George said the UK was "ready to support Ireland"".
Now I wonder where a country which, according the bigot wing on this blog, is a country teetering on the edge of economic catastrophe going to find billions to bail out Ireland.
Will you ask them or shall I?
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132. At 8:23pm on 17 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
"""If You are looking for 'traitors' that dropped Greece in the deep hole it is in try Athen's Government Ministers & Accountants plus the useless EU-Brussels' ECB officials who allowed Greece to join the EUro-zone when it plainly did not match any of the Fiscal-Economic criteria to do so!"""
We have already spottedn them in Athens where they come sometimes to pretend to be there... it's the Papandreous mate! Rememeber? You were drinking tea together with grandpa George at Cairo instructing him how to start the civil war against the also British paid, British armed communists. Remember? Pa pa ndre ou... or you might know them with their other funny names, albeit less Greek... Mineiko etc. Jeffrey is the 3rd in a row. Papandreous in the civil war, Papandreous for dictatorship and Papandreus for indebting the country and then again now for immersing it into the IMF-ECB agreement. If you are not enough with them take the Karamanlis the elder (uncle of the younger, the fat one, the incapable, the tired man) who rose in politics as your man i950s and took the leadership of the right wing when you murdered general (by then out of army, political leader and Prime Minister) Papagos exactly at the time Greeks were pogromed at Constantinople as a punishment for... Greeks in Cyprus wishing indendence by the dirty claws of the British Empire. Oh, did I forget the Mitsotakis? Relative of Venizelos the good old British agent that first divided Greece and led it to a British organised catastrophic campaign in the depths of Minor Asia? What can I say? I picked up 3 of the most major clans responsible for the state of affairs in modern Greece and ALL 3 are directly related to you.
"""Furthermore, it is the 'United Kingdom', not the 'English' - - how many more of You lousy 'English-haters' are going to emerge from the ether on these blogs"""
Diavol! Mr. Unitedkingdomian. Understood!
""" - - and if Ireland is 'saved' from financial ruin then it will almost certainly involve the UK donating a great big chunk of the money for it to happen!?"""
So help it or not, what kind of lessons do the Unitedkingdomians take from the Irish example. Still speaking of the need of "openess to the world" "attraction of whatever flying investments" of "lightweight state" and other such sermons... cos nothing of that seemed to help Ireland even in the medium run let alone in the long. In fact it seems to be doing as bad as overly corrupt and underproductive record-importer Greece.
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#136 and #137
In the good old days --one was bankrupt if you could´nt pay your debts.
Now your´re bankrupt if you cannot pay the interest.
Germany can still pay the interest-- but West German workers want to see more than that, when their living standard has considerably deteriorated since re-unification and this world financial debacle.
Sure, Angie presently has plenty of domestic sideshows against her. -- But with the SPD, --one swallow does not make a Summer !
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#128. At 7:47pm on 17 Nov 2010, Pate
You are to put it succinctly, brain dead, go back to the hole you crawled out of and leave this blog alone until you learn there is a world out there.
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Re #140 17 Nov 2010, threnodio_II writes:
"There have been unconfirmed reports that the UK is considering going it alone, offering billions of pounds of direct loans to the Irish Republic to ease its economic crisis.
Chancellor George said the UK was "ready to support Ireland"".
Will you ask them ('bigot wing') or shall I?
ThrenodioII, I'm sure the 'hate-England' troupe fill in the blanks all on their own and we can be sure whatever the final resolution of the unfortunate Irish crisis it'll end up as an 'Englishman's' fault somewhere down the line. There's no way any of that ill-mannered lot could bring themselves to admit an error of judgement.
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120. At 5:19pm on 17 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
Re #106, 110, 114, 117 & 119
plus, #97, 101, 104, 113 & 116
2 howling at the moon in unison cannot be a coincidence!
I hadn't realised until now there was the possibility of contagion on this blog!
-----------------------------------------------
Me and quietoaktree howling in unison? That is something new cos last time I saw we had disagreed with quitoaktree on most subjects than we actually agreed and sometimes we stresses our disagreement, which is fine by me, I do not expect to agree with all the world or something and I do learn a thing or two by quietoaktree but what can I expect from you when you cannot even see that or what can we have from you here apart receiving a pot-pourri of old-fashioned British humour?
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139. At 10:04pm on 17 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:
#134
Pate for brains;
"It seems to be easy to hate Greek and EU."
Indeed it does:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/05/bild-open-letter-greece-papandreou
--------
Pathetic article, as usual blaming all Greeks and branding all of them as lazy. Can't wait for the dust to settle, maybe when all our today's politicians are very old or dead, we can also claim catharsis for our past deeds like the Germans did, our politicians are old anyway, it will not take that long.
Also, the Bild mentioned Germany giving 50bn Euros to Greece since the introduction of the Euro. Was that all bribes of German companies or what? Gotta love the German business ethics, aparently for some the bribe giver is ethical, it is only the receiver who is at fault.
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pate
Re #134
If I could follow Your logic of how the sad predicament of totally independent Ireland, a long-term member of the EUro-zone, and now in deep financial crisis can be blamed on 'England' I'd answer You.
As it is, I can't think of anything to match Your illogicality and unlike some on this blog I don't know how to write the sound of a big, long RAAAAAAAAAASSSSBEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
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... and I do love British humour (I do), mostly contemporary, you know... the Unitedkingdomian one!
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#141
"So help it or not, what kind of lessons do the Unitedkingdomians take from the Irish example"
Erm, never to build an economy on sand and never to agree to monetary union with Juggernautland, Magnanatrabajoland and Ouzonia without fiscal convergence first?
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Re #145 on 17 Nov 2010, Nik writes:
"Me and quietoaktree howling in unison?"
Not complicated and no conspiracy: 'howling' being the shared noise of 2 nonsensical contributors.
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#134. At 8:47pm on 17 Nov 2010, Pate
It's cretins like you that have made the English dislike the mainland, you like the money the UK has paid into your trough for decades but not the UK. Well then, don't be surprised when the English say enough is enough, your snout is too long and we're fed up with it.
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#149 - champagne_charlie
- and definitely not until you have set 'six tests for convergence', drawn 'lines in the sand', made sure 'the time is right' and - if all else fails - only after a referendum. More tea, vicar?
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#140 Threnodio
Either print it, let the taxpayers pay it or ask Germany for it ?
My #82 (last blog topic) came to pass !
I told you the anti-parasitic ´Bob Martins´were good !
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Re #141. At 10:21pm on 17 Nov 2010, Nik writes:
"..You were drinking tea together with grandpa George at Cairo instructing him how to start the civil war against the also British paid, British armed communists. Remember?"
"..Karamanlis the elder (uncle of the younger, the fat one, the incapable, the tired man) who rose in politics as your man i950s and took the leadership of the right wing when you murdered general (by then out of army, political leader and Prime Minister) Papagos.."
"..Relative of Venizelos the good old British agent that first divided Greece and led it to a British organised catastrophic campaign in the depths of Minor Asia? What can I say? I picked up 3 of the most major clans responsible for the state of affairs in modern Greece and ALL 3 are directly related to you."
Must confess I had not realised conditions had got this bad for Greece: Hallucinations, idioglossia, incognizance...
Look, I don't want to worry anyone, cause undue alarm or whatever, but has anyone else realised this contributor actually believes all this tosh & gibberish?
I know Greece is in really dire times, but surely their Health Service still provides assistance to the really serious cases?
If not, shouldn't we give them a loan because this sort of unfortunate fellow wandering the streets mouthing idiocy will ruin the Aegean tourist trade!?
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#153. At 10:56pm on 17 Nov 2010, quietoaktree
Well the EU and it's wayward child , the ECB, have only the first two options, I can't see Germany coughing up again, as for the UK, their 8 billion was promised by that famous uncanny Scot Gordon McClown, time to do an Austrian and say 'get bl**dy lost'.
However should the Irish wish to approach the UK for help on a country to country basis then maybe, but as for the club-Med countries, sort your own problems out as they're your own stupid corrupt fault.
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#153
quietoaktree;
The only thing that has come to pass is this, as EU Pris linked earlier from the Times:
"Down the years opponents have been called Little Englanders, xenophobes, “extremists” – we’ve had the full liberal-left lexicon thrown at us, and never more so than when being spoken down to by Ireland’s cultural elite.
So if there is an annoyingly smug sound of “I told you so” coming from this side of the Irish Sea.......Rather it is directed at the Irish political class, an even more self-satisfied and closed-minded collection of people than our own Guardianistas.....Ireland overthrew the clergy only to replace it with the commentariat, a group with a remarkably narrow set of views and completely intolerant of dissent – Church bad, multi-culturalism good, Brits bad, America worse, Israelis worst of all. Being part of the European project goes without saying among this herd of beach-bound whales."
Ring any bells?
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#151 Buzet 23
--- Said the robber to the Thief ???
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#149 C_C
-- Fiscal convergence ?
--at this rate maybe Greece will offer Britain assistance ?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#153 - quietoaktree
Yeah, right.
Go to /www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/reserves/index.htm, download the spreadsheet and look for yourself. It is all a matter of public record. The Bank of England and HM Treasury between them are currently sitting on 103,040,000 USD of liquid foreign currency reserves without having to raise a red cent in the markets. That is after quantitative easing and still holding majority shares in three of the UK's big banks.
UK government bond yields on a 10 year maturity are currently 3.87%, Irish bonds are currently 8.06%. I thought you were in finance - do I really have to spell it out for you? If the UK borrowed all the money and then lent to Ireland, it would still show 4.93% yield.
QOT, we may be class ridden, feudal, backward and possibly even a nation of war criminals but stupid, we are not.
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#157 - quietoaktree
"- Said the robber to the Thief" - completely ignoring the guy on the middle cross?
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#156 - champagne_charlie
Things have clearly gone downhill at the Times since Murdoch got his feet and the table. The collective noun for whales is a "school" - very useful for people - and whales - with a lot to learn.
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#156 C_C
I have full sympathy with the British working class --they will and will always suffer the most.
As margaret pointed out those defenders of Britain (rather England) are living abroad-- like other millions who have left.
-- and ALL for good reasons !
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#162
threnodio II
"Things have clearly gone downhill at the Times since Murdoch got his feet and the table. The collective noun for whales is a "school" - very useful for people - and whales - with a lot to learn."
Haha, I missed that! A "herd" of whales lol. For goodness sake.
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Threnodio
--A few zeros are missing ????
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#163
quietoaktree;
How sad, back to square one. Yawn, goodnight.
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Threnodio
Bank shares ???
The health of Britain´s economy is dependent on BANK SHARES !!!!!
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Threodio
Liabilities ???
-- a minor detail !
for an accountant ?
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Since Germans like to give away their money, how about sending some to the USA so we can pay China for bankrolling our orgy.
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125. At 6:48pm on 17 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
John
Re #118
Correction to Your correction, mate.
The Treaty of Rome, 1957 was the founding treaty of the European Economic Community.
There was no EUropean Union mentioned anywhere in the text.
Preamble of the 1957 treaty
"HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUCHESS OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS,
DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
First bit gives it away really. Not a mere free trade area.
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#169 Samsom
Bank of China bank shares would also be acceptable --- I´m not fussy !
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#171 quietoaktree- At this point in space and time, S&H Green Stamps would be acceptable as well.
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146. At 10:28pm on 17 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:
"Gotta love the German business ethics, aparently for some the bribe giver is ethical, it is only the receiver who is at fault."
Sorry, mate, heard about BAe Systems? You know, sitting in a glasshouse.....
Maybe I should tell you something about the real world. After living and working almost twenty years in S.E.A., I could tell you a lot about the givers and takers from UK, USA, France, Italy and, of course, from Germany. Plus many others. One should be very careful when accusing others. It normally will backfire some day.
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Watch the "history of English" a 70s era docunentary--bbc and abc combo produced?
C Charlie..excellent to just get from the library
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Pate..you make the dollar sound so ...safe!
Proclaim more often!
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Word association...Pate makes me think of livers which makes me think of spleen.
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#167
quietoaktree;
"Bank shares ???
The health of Britain´s economy is dependent on BANK SHARES !!!!!"
He did NOT say Britains economy was dependent on bank shares. But the British government did make the very smart move of using bail-out money to purchase bank equity ,which is currently worth over 100bn euros, hardly an insignificant sum is it?
The British government has the flexibility to deal with whatever arises, regardless of how painful, because it is in control of its own currency and interest rates, and it can print money if it wishes. It also has a AAA credit rating (recently reinforced by S&P)and has low and stable bond rates. Ironically, the sort of money needed to underwrite Britains exposure to Irish bad debt is also just over 100bn euros, but unfortunately the banks that the government has a majority stake in, are the same banks that are over-exposed in Ireland (ie RBS and Lloyds TSB).
100bn of bank shares is irrelevant,as they cant be sold in this case, but Britain "could" print the money needed to rescue the Irish banks at 9am this morning, without breaking sweat.
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#163
"As margaret pointed out those defenders of Britain (rather England) are living abroad-- like other millions who have left.
-- and ALL for good reasons !"
I dont think any German, or German resident, should be mocking the UK about its emigration do you? What is German emigration running at right now? 150,000 per year? It seems to be a common trend though, in this article for example, the writer can only defend Germanys huge emigration problem by pointing a finger at the UK and saying "We're all right, because the UK is worse". I guess that mentality is catching.
http://www.ejumpcut.org/currentissue/freyEmigrationTV/text.html
Equity is needed for a fair discussion, as I've told you before. Try it.
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125. At 6:48pm on 17 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
"Plainly it is of benefit to everyone if there is exchange of cultural experience: I know EUropeans who would benefit from a period spent in North America just as some Americans really do need to get out more in the World without being in uniform."
Why? What makes cultures unique and special is a lack of "exchange." Travel doesn't make anyone wiser or smarter.
Americans are geographically blessed like no other country in the world so they have no need to visit other parts of the world like someone living in a tiny country in Europe.
And the two other nationalities in "North America" are Canadian and Mexican, not American. Why are you referring to "North America" when you are obviously not addressing Canadians and Mexicans?
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#179
allent2
"Why? What makes cultures unique and special is a lack of "exchange." Travel doesn't make anyone wiser or smarter.
Americans are geographically blessed like no other country in the world so they have no need to visit other parts of the world like someone living in a tiny country in Europe."
LOL..what a muppet.
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"175.Stevenson wrote:
Pate..you make the dollar sound so ...safe!"
Well Stevenson, like Brian Lenihan says, Irelands banks are under attack.
Dollar is the attacker.
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"176. Stevenson wrote:
Word association...Pate makes me think of livers which makes me think of spleen."
That comment surely helps the Irish banks and makes all the difference.
Or did you think that that makes me cry, heh.
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#177 C_C
You appear to be unaware that ALL (most) western governments were very, very intelligent (?)-- and bought bank shares !
--- and if I am not mistaken, their debt ( free of charge) is also an asset ???
Madematics appears to be a blog problem ?
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179. At 08:16am on 18 Nov 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"Travel doesn't make anyone wiser or smarter. "
No wonder many Americans have absolutely no idea about geography and other cultures. If you wouldn't be so funny I would feel sorry for you. I can really imagine your lifestyle that makes you wiser and smarter - sitting in an armchair, slap of beer on the right, a bucket of popcorn to the left and a couple of remotes strategically placed in the centre right in front of you.
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#183 C_C
---I mean of course muddymatiks !
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#183
quietoaktree;
Just what is your major malfunction? You were the one who misinterpreted threnodios comments, and I just put you straight. I wasnt talking about any other country, I was referring simply to the British decision to buy equity during bail-out rather than give loans, that equity is sellable and has a market value of over 100bn euros. Thats all...sheesh, stop getting so worked up.
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Phoenix
Re #170
NO! Couldn't agree with You less about premable to the Treaty of Rome.
Let's see if You can spot the word below missing from the Rome text: Apoligies, but I'm no good at this shouted big typed stuff!
POLITICALPOLITICALPOLITICALPOLITICALPOLITCALPOLITICAL
POLITICALPOLITICALPOLITICALPOLITICALPOLITICAL
POLITICALPOLTICIALPOLITICALPOLITICAL
POLITICALPOLITICALPOLITICAL
POLITICALPOLITICAL
POLITICALPOLITICA
POLITICALPOLITIC
POLITICALPOLITI
POLITICALPOLIT
POLITICALPOLI
POLITICALPOL
POLITICALPO
POLITICALP
POLITICAL
POLITICA
POLITIC
POLITI
POLIT
POLI
POL
PO
P
.
My contention is the missing word gives away really what much more recent politicians have foisted on the unwilling Citizens of EUrope.
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#186 C_C
Misrepresented ???
-- The British tax payer is jumping up and down with glee ???
--American tax payers are NOT !
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#183
quietoaktree;
"You appear to be unaware that ALL (most) western governments were very, very intelligent (?)-- and bought bank shares !"
Quite aware, they all followed Britain off the cliff without seeing the rocks below:
"In an unprecedented move, Mr Brown has been invited to an emergency summit to speak to the 15 nations which use the euro about his rescue mission. He will press their leaders to copy Britain's bail-out plan by buying stock in banks - effectively a part-nationalisation - to raise cash"
"Us Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson has already said the US will copy Britain's banking bail-out plan in the first such action by the White House since the Depression of the 1930s. Leaders in Germany are drawing up similar plans to shore up their financial system and Mr Brown hopes to persuade the rest of the countries of Europe to do the same."
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#188
quietoaktree;
Nobody even mentioned whether taxpayers are happy with it or not. In the land of no-democracy who would know anyway? But I for one am happy that at least there is some prospect for getting some of the money back when the shares are sold , its better than nothing.
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#191
Gulp...it moves a step closer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11782356
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Re #179 on 18 Nov 2010, AllenT2 writes:
"Why? What makes cultures unique and special is a lack of "exchange." Travel doesn't make anyone wiser or smarter.
Americans are geographically blessed like no other country in the world so they have no need to visit other parts of the world like someone living in a tiny country in Europe."
Behold - - the replacement for MAII - - politically unimaginative, culturally unaware, sold on 'Americana'!
I count myself a good friend to the USA and have defended on these blogs many times: When in North America I met a number of Americans like Yourself, but I assure any European fortunately You are only reprsentative of 1 'backwater' strand of North America.
There are countless others who have open-minds to the possibility America isn't the start, middle & finish version of the World!
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#189 C_C
The feeding of the 5,000 --- on the taxpayers loaf of bread ?
-- Divide the winnings and nationalize the losses and risks ?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/40238016?__source=yahoo%7Cheadline%7Cother%7Ctext%7C&par=yahoo
If I remember correctly Swissair and many of the sub-crimes also had AAA ratings ?
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UweEllinghausen wrote:
"No wonder many Americans have absolutely no idea about geography and other cultures."
And that makes you better than them, how?
"If you wouldn't be so funny I would feel sorry for you."
Don't flatter yourself, I've probably traveled to more countries than you have. I also, logically, do not think I am a better person than someone who has not traveled as much as I have.
"I can really imagine your lifestyle that makes you wiser and smarter - sitting in an armchair, slap of beer on the right, a bucket of popcorn to the left and a couple of remotes strategically placed in the centre right in front of you."
So are you supposed to be a fine example of one of those other cultures that Americans can learn from?
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#192 CBW
--- Don´t count Marcus as lost in action -- its too early !
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#192
"There are countless others who have open-minds to the possibility America isn't the start, middle & finish version of the World! "
Like those at UNESCO for example:
"The World Heritage List includes 911 properties forming part of the cultural and natural heritage which the World Heritage Committee considers as having OUTSTANDING universal value."
Out of 911, 21 are in the United States. Britain alone has 28 and there are several EU countries each with a higher number than the US. Yes, quietoaktree and Pateforbrains, Germany has more than Britain.....
Taking geographical heritage alone, which is what he was on about to be fair, the US has 11 and the EU has 32 :):) Ah but the EU is not a country I hear you say - no problem, both China and Australia have more geographical wonders than the US.
He should get out more.
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#193
quietoaktree;
Nope, sorry, you've lost me now. What does your link to US bank stress testing have to do with anything I've been talking about? Everyone knows where the disease started, its keeping the patient alive that counts right now, especially in the absence of a cure.
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#194
"No wonder many Americans have absolutely no idea about geography and other cultures."
"And that makes you better than them, how?"
Travel broadens the mind dude! Its a universal truth, pity it went in one ear and out the other. Dont feel too bad though, you aren't the first American to suffer from it, there are already several paid up members of "Team America" on this blog, although one is sadly MIA.
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Re #195. At 10:06am on 18 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:
#192 CBW
--- Don´t count Marcus as lost in action -- its too early !
I'd welcome him back any day, especially if it meant Your anti-English drivel disappeared.
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194. At 10:00am on 18 Nov 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"So are you supposed to be a fine example of one of those other cultures that Americans can learn from?"
AllanT2, don't be silly. This is not what I mean or what I said. It's just your statement: "Travel doesn't make anyone wiser or smarter" that makes me cringe. Having been stationed for nearly 20 years in the orient I dare to claim that traveling and dealing with other cultures leaves an enormous amount of impressions that will have an impact on everybody's knowledge.
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"151. At 10:47pm on 17 Nov 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
It's cretins like you that have made the English dislike the mainland,"
No. It's the english press. It's been brainwashing all you for years and years. And it's all politics, less strong EU is better for USA and UK. Divide et impera.
And now its all about Euro versus Dollar and Pound.
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#199 CBW
If it is in your in interest it is Anti-English -- if it is not then it is Anti-UK
Your flip-flopping is not only drivel but dribble.
It is possible that Marcus is only being fitted with solar cells and a more efficient battery --instead of the normal UK (English)-plug-in module with lead.
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Re #202. At 11:13am on 18 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:
#199 CBW
"If it is in your in interest it is Anti-English -- if it is not then it is Anti-UK
Your flip-flopping is not only drivel but dribble."
'Flip' says the ex-Stasi fellow-traveller who flops at every topic as his bigotry & bias cannot be contained.
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It seems to me that what is needed here is a referendum on wether we stay in the e.u. or withdraw and settle this monster for good. The Euro is obviously a failure, and was allways doomed to be so. I am just wondering if it can really survive the trouble it is in. Everything will be done so it will survive, untill next time. There is no democracy in Europe. More or less everything is imposed on the ctizens of europe. Ireland was made to vote again on the Lisbon treaty. It was like wrong answer , do it again. I would like to know what was promissed to get that yes vote. We where promissed one, then denied one. I am sure if The now P.M. had said lets have a referendum before the general election he would have got a majority, and would not be in a coalition. Its time to come out of the e.u. and go back to a trading partnership, even that is protectionist, still. The President of the e.u. is on £300.000 a year more then Barrack obama at least he is elected This is completly unexeptable.
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Pate
I think you are mistaken . The EU , national governments and the banks are all hand in glove ; they are as much responsible for creating the free atmosphere of borrow and spend as the respective countries .
The EU and IMF are not pressing a bailout on Ireland , to save Ireland or Irish banks . The sole purpose of the proposed bailout is to save the Euro and the EU .
Economists and the real honest financial wisecracks would all advise Ireland to default rather than have a borrowed bailout . The bailout will only put off the day of reconning for a later date . Neither Ireland nor the Eurozone and EU will be at the end of their troubles ; next time round it will be even worse for all concerned .
The Euro has been a terrible ill concieved project , that was seen by many , as unworkable from the beginning .
If a bailout is being forced on Ireland against her will , I would advise Ireland to take it and then default .
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#177,
champagne_charlie,
‘The British government has the flexibility to deal with whatever arises, regardless of how painful, because it is in control of its own currency and interest rates, and it can print money if it wishes. It also has a AAA credit rating (recently reinforced by S&P)and has low and stable bond rates.’
Would those happen to be the same AAA ratings, which the credit rating agencies used to give so freely just before the economic crisis?
Just asking.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100005241/the-world-would-be-a-better-place-without-credit-rating-agencies/
http://politics.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/10/23/hot-docs-credit-rating-agencies-a-colossal-failure-us-economic-recovery-in-late-2009.html
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#197 C_C
I am one of those who believe that only a few thousand really have power in the world-- government statements and actions are taken with a grain of salt --at the best of times.
It doesn´t matter which country is involved-- the money and power of those at the top WILL be protected and increased.
For those reasons I try to read between the lines or look for other reasons why ´it is in Britain´s interest ´or ´our Sovereignty ´ are used.
I am not picking out Britain alone in this case --we are all recipients of cheap nationalistic utterances that solely have the proverbial aim of ´Leading lambs to the slaughter´ --- and make us thankful for it !
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re: 204,
alan chadwick,
'More or less everything is imposed on the ctizens of europe' .
It seems writing without spelling errors is one of the things which are imposed less on the citizens of UK.
As you say, completely 'unexeptable'.
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#201 Pate
The English do Not hate the mainland ; just the EU Brussels , the ECJ ,
ECHR , the Commission , the parliament and the faceless bureaucrats .
We resent every penny Britain spends to support the EU and even more the huge slice France takes off for CAP . I have lived a number of years in Italy and speak fluent Italian , my daughter is married to a German and lives in Berlin . We are not little Englanders with our heads burried in the sand . What appalls us is the ignorance of many mainland Europeans , who think the EU is Utopia limited and the sun shines out of its arse .
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CBW
You can bark up as many trees as you want -that was the very reason my nationality is not public.
-- I really enjoy watching you chasing your own tail in ever decreasing circles until you disappear into an orifice.
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Marcus cant post right now because he is probably too busy looking for a job or some food stamps in America. He sure looks like a really disoccupied guy.
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Fear is everywhere. Job loss has a higher priority in most people's minds than the threat of global or other planet issues. We watch sci fi doom and gloom movies to relax and get away from the immediate fear of financial crisis. The modern-day Shaman is the disaster movie or the soap opera. Although real-life world threats exist, they are looked at with a kind of indifference, such as seen in herds of animals when one of their number is eaten. 'Phew, thank goodness it wasn't me.'
We live in a cut-throat global economy. Core values have been replaced by market-place values.
Work for working class people is becoming more scarce and in some cases, has become extinct.
Work extinction is probably more of an issue than species extinction when there are billions of people needing work to pay for food and shelter.
The global governance cannot prioritize species extinction over work-place extinction. The very idea suggests that workers are expendable and valueless. There is only so far global governance can go in devaluing the role of the worker before there is a backlash of horrendous proportions. Consider the proportions of the numbers of potential manual workers to the numbers of skilled or highly educated workers.
I say 'potential' manual workers because there are now many willing workers who are now jobless and agonizing on how they can survive. Even the middle-classed educated and employed are becoming fearful of the future of work. If job security no longer exists then it should be expected that loyalty to leaders will no longer exist.
If leaders explicitly show (that those they employ are completely and instantly expendable) then they in turn, will have reflected back to them, the same measures that they deploy.
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#209 Huaimek
--- what does the sun shine into in Thailand ?
--isn´t it the same sun ?
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Re #210. 18 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:
"(CBW).. I really enjoy watching you chasing your own tail in ever decreasing circles until you disappear into an orifice."
Be assured: No matter how dark, no matter the odour so long as You're nowhere in the vicinity the fragrant scene shall be an eminent improvement on the stench You leave with every decayed contribution.
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#206
"Would those happen to be the same AAA ratings, which the credit rating agencies used to give so freely just before the economic crisis?"
Yes. The same people who couldnt tell their ass from their credit-default-swap enable Britain to sell consitently cheap debt, whilst Greece, Ireland, etc are priced out of the market. Wonderful world isnt it?
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#207
quietoaktree;
Then I think we actually broadly agree, believe it or not! Trouble is, I dont see you writing anything negative whatsoever about anyone other than Britain or the US. A German resident that cannot criticise Germany but writes hundreds of negative posts about Britain and the US? What is that if not nationalism? When all is said and done, mainland Europhiles see Britain in the same way Pate does...slaves to the US and slaves to the belief that Britain is somehow better than Europe, when neither is what people believe. If you truly knew British people like you say you do, then you'd know how self-deprecating they are, and how much many of them do-down their own country. Pessimism and cynicism are far more appropriate attributes to apply to the British than the caricature you present, and they are very unattractive and dangerous attributes too.
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Re #207. on 18 Nov 2010, quietoaktree writes:
"#197 C_C
I am one of those who believe that only a few thousand really have power in the world..
For those reasons I try to read between the lines or look for other reasons why ´it is in Britain´s interest ´or ´our Sovereignty ´ are used.
I am not picking out Britain alone in this case --we are all recipients of cheap nationalistic utterances that solely have the proverbial aim of ´Leading lambs to the slaughter..."
Fair's fair: No, of course the chap isn't really hostile to Britain-UK-England!
Why in the last 6 months he's only contributed approx 397 comments referring to G.B-UK-England and I managed to count a massive 29 to the rest of the World (even that was stretching topical boundaries)!
Come on, he's misunderstood, there's no animosity there; it's all well-intentioned critque of the British Isles and its Inhabitants.
Oooh look, the 'Lancaster bomber' squadron on the moon has been joined by a flight of Luftwaffe Dorniers!
Let us be quite clear: His claim of neutrality on topics & nations is akin to his old buddy Erik Honecker declaring he had always preferred West Germany's system of government - - it didn't & won't stack-up.
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I don't see why there is all this fuss over where Macro is. Let's be grateful for his absence. Since its Thanksgiving next week in the States he's probably already eating.
And don’t be too hard on AllenT2. Yes, he is a disciple of MAII, and yes, they both make me cringe to admit they are fellow countrymen, but as evidenced by their blog postings it’s fairly easily to conclude ‘they ain’t too bright’ and should be treated like a dog who is peeing on your shoe: just give ‘em a gentle nudge the other direction.
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#216 C_C
Those who publish the most blindly nationalistic idiotic contributions get the most replies.
Only last week I offered a tit-for-tat --which was soundly rejected by the Brit contingent.
--it so happens the Brits make the most.--unfortunately uncle Gavin encourages and drives them on to even more heights (depths).
-- I have not yet come across a German contributor with such failings -- which should (but will not) give some Brits pause for thought .
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That French guy Voltaire said something like, "The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." The financial shenanigans perpetrated by our “leaders” cause me to question Voltaire’s use of "occasionally". I also question the polemicist ramblings of some posters here. Pardon me while I get another ice-cold beer and some more popcorn.
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Germans with failings. Now there’s a unique concept.
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173. At 04:51am on 18 Nov 2010, UweEllinghausen wrote:
146. At 10:28pm on 17 Nov 2010, ptsa wrote:
"Gotta love the German business ethics, aparently for some the bribe giver is ethical, it is only the receiver who is at fault."
Sorry, mate, heard about BAe Systems? You know, sitting in a glasshouse.....
Maybe I should tell you something about the real world. After living and working almost twenty years in S.E.A., I could tell you a lot about the givers and takers from UK, USA, France, Italy and, of course, from Germany. Plus many others. One should be very careful when accusing others. It normally will backfire some day.
-----------
Well, since I am not from the UK I don't give a toss about BAe Systems. It is just that all briberies I hear about involve German companies, who to me shouldn't even be doing that. Their products are good (right?), do they really have to bribe to get a contract?
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C_C
As a footnote --
If I remember correctly I have responded to your contributions (generally ?) with like tone ? --more I cannot do.
--I have also said very little against France --very suspicious ?
perhaps 99% of British contributions are against the EU and for the UK (or England 100%).
Aren´t you knocking on the wrong door ?
Show me another section of such bloggers and on such a scale !
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#221 Samson
--- as British contributors´ failings. !
--Please quote correctly !
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154. At 11:03pm on 17 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
... wrote whatever... as usual.
"""Must confess I had not realised conditions had got this bad for Greece: Hallucinations, idioglossia, incognizance..."""
"""Look, I don't want to worry anyone, cause undue alarm or whatever, but has anyone else realised this contributor actually believes all this tosh & gibberish?"""
Ok dear CBW. I will tell you things as simple as possible:
Let us take pure facts:
Following the downfall of the 2nd dictatorship of Ioannidis, Greece was nontheless remaining a relatively half-developed but still OK litle state - of an acceptable economy
- producing more than it imported
- of ever rising level of life
... and that despite the considerable hit of the 1973 crisis but also the events at Cyprus that multiple other repercussions, financial ones too.
So starting from that fairly ok point Greece went on to
- to be accepted finally in the then EEC by 1978
- to be governed up to today by the following ND & PASOK governments
1) Konstantinos Karamanlis (the elder): 1974-1978, 1978-81
2) Andreas (Andrew) Papandreou-Mineyko : 1981-85,1985-89, 1993-96
3) Xenophon Zolotas : 1990 (all-party government organisasing elections)
4) Konstantinos Mitsotakis : 1990-93
5) Konstantinos (Aaron Avouri) Simitis : 1996-00, 2000-04
6) Konstantinos Karamanlis : 2004-07, 2007-09
7) Georgios (Jeffrey) Papandreou-Chant : 2009-today
What strikes first is that apart the functional all-party govenment, the 11 governments that enterred the country in the EU and ruled it up to today were 4 sirnames (as well as... only 2 names but that is a funny coincidence, I hope! Kostas has to be a very common name):
So by order of years we have the Papandreous, Karamanlis, Simitis, Mitsotakis. And in that you have to count countless underlings of their families in all critical positions. In reality all these names had monopolised the political life even prior to the 2 dictatorships! From there on, the striking part is the presence of foreign names which is also accompagnied by the presence of foreign passports.
----------------
The above are facts. There is nothing that cannot be verified so I do not think you have much more to say dear CBW.
So since you keep on asking me "what is the link with Britain", we have the following:
Papandreou family:
--------------------
The family patriarch is Georgios Papandreou who rose from obscurity sawing some moderate success serving pro-British Venizelos, then rising meteorically during WWII... at Cairo where he was stationing with the British. He came back in 1944 accompagnied by British colonial troops and started the civil war with the communists whom the British had been armining and financing in the previous 3 years! He had his mixed-ancestry family established in the USA as US citizens and from there they started coming back to be established as a political dynasty thanx to the formation of bribe-based hard core of supporters out of money coming from "uknown sources".
Karamanlis family:
------------------
The family patriarch is Konstantinos Karamanlis who rose meteorically in the mid-1950s following the death (...) of prime minister Papagos (during the events at Cyprus & Constantinople) as his case was staunchily supported by the British who mediated in the anyway blindly pro-British pseudo-king Paul who named him instead of Stefanopoulos or Kanelopoulos who were the highest hierarchically and most close collaborators of the dead Papagos (...). The links of Karamanlis and the role he played for the British can be easily monitored by the fact that he was the main politician that dealt with the issue of Cyprus on which the British had cut their relations with the earlier center-right Papagos government. Unsprisingly Karamanlis also delt with the aftermath of the Tukrish invasion with the known results.
Mitsotakis family:
--------------------
The Mitsotakis family are both the precursor as well as the natural continuation of the Venizelos family. Their patriarch is Konstantinos Mitsotakis, grandfather of Konstantinos Mitsotakis who in late 19th century founded the party that his relative Venizelos had also joined and led since the early 1900s. As such the grandchild, Konstantinos Mitsotakis was also coming not only as a family member but also in political terms from the family of Venizelos. In WWII he was arrested by the Germans and was condamned to death but the British cared enough for him to buy him out of prison! Unsurprisingly, he later enterred in the same party of the Center of Georgios Papandreou serving along with Andreas (Andrew) Papandreou and was one of the chief responsible for making the government fall in late 1965 and thus initiating the events that would lead to the first dictatorship that came in early 1967.
Simitis (non-clan, but closed circle too)
------------
The last one, Konstantinos Simitis, is not from a long running political family but rather the son of a professor of the Economic School University in Athens which however is a very influential position that though seemingly academic, in Greece particularly it is highly linked to the corruption phenomena that rule the country - you do not get that position unless you play the game.
His real name is identical to his grandfather, Aaron Avouri, i.e. he has some partial Jewish ancestry which he never really hid since "Simitis" means semite in Greek and the link is obvious - but then note that Greeks were never known to have any levels of anti-semitism close to what was (and still is) found in Germany, France, Britain, Russia and other European countries and so there was no risk of not voting against a politician on the basis of any partial Jewish ancestry. Here the voted for US citizens of almost no relation to the country, they would not stop at distance roots afterall! What is more interesting on Simitis is that he lived like the Papandreous most of his life abroad, then was a right hand of the Papandreous with whom he tried to take a distance so as to be elected as party leader and prime minister. Himself a reknowned financial specialist (like Andreas Papandreou) became the 2nd worst (after Andreas Papandreou) prime minister in matters of finance having exploded the country's debt. However, he never managed to impose any political clan but still maintains around him a political circle.
So out of the 4 families, the 3 major political clans, or dynasties if you want, rose in Greece with the political support of the British. It is the British that chose the families that ruled in post(as well as pre) dictatorial Greece forming a system of virtual dictatorship (all together belonged to pretty much the same circle - and that even today eg. Jeffrey and his main curerent opponent, Samaras were roomates in their Uni. days in the US...).
What can we do about it CBW:
Out of the 3 reigning dynasties: Karamanlis, Papandreou & Mitsotakis
ALL 3 of them saw their establishment thanx to the British paragon.
So how can you have a face to say British geopolitics have nothing to do with all that? Really?
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225.... but the question remains:
Greece had the above tragic political system the , a virtual dictatorship of majorly 3 political clans installed in the country by the British. And as such the country's development took such a turn.
However what happened to Ireland? It must had had a different political system. It certainly followed a totally different path. So what went wrong and it ended up being the same as indebted?
Is it that the "liberal systems" and the "open markets" and the "investment attractiveness" that finally lead pretty much in the same results as the corrupt pseudo-socialist model of Greece... not to mention even more given that Greece has anyway comparatively more functional expenses than Ireland (need for big army, price of infrastructure in a rare combination of a mountainous-islandic land etc.).
Wanna keep avoiding this matter?
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#224 quietoaktree- When I am quoting someone, I use those little squiggly symbols before and after the quote. Sorry if the humor was over your head.
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"205. At 12:04pm on 18 Nov 2010, Huaimek wrote:
Pate
The Euro has been a terrible ill concieved project , that was seen by many , as unworkable from the beginning ."
That is Pound thinking. Many many small euro countries are very happy that pound can not speculate with their currency any more.
''Nevermore, nevermore'' Edgar Allan Poe told we so.
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144 CBW writes:
"ThrenodioII, I'm sure the 'hate-England' troupe fill in the blanks all on their own and we can be sure whatever the final resolution of the unfortunate Irish crisis it'll end up as an 'Englishman's' fault somewhere down the line. There's no way any of that ill-mannered lot could bring themselves to admit an error of judgement."
And not just the co-called 'hate England' troupe here. This is what Kit Green has to say in Gavin's latest blog "Why 'Yes' is so hard for the Irish" at 5:
"The UK will be offering this direct funding so that (in my opinion) a back door method is found to further prop up UK banks that hold Irish sovereign and bank debt. Far easier to sell to the UK electorate a "stabilising helping hand" to Ireland and blame the Irish politicians rather than UK politicians being embarrassed by a UK bank bailout. After all we are told our own banks are doing so well!"
The trouble with you CBW is that you have a monumental inferiority complex and when you lose an argument you have to resort to insults as at 150 154 214 217 etc, sneer at other people's nationality or worse call their sanity into question as in the case of Nik. Most unpleasant character trait and one that suggests a very limited and restricted education.
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178 champagne charlie wrote:
163"As margaret pointed out those defenders of Britain (rather England) are living abroad-- like other millions who have left."
I think you misunderstood this somewhat. The 'defenders of Britian' I was referring to were threnodio, Buzet and CBW, three 'Rule Britannia' Englishmen contributing here who all live abroad, Belgium, Finland and Hungary (it could be Italy)I believe.
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#230
margaret;
Whats worse? Expats who evangelise the country they have left behind, or a resident who hates the country she lives in and the people that live in it, but has married one (and presumably therefore must have english family and friends) and lived there for 40 years? It just doesnt add up.
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#219 quietoaktree
Out of idle curiosity, quietoaktree, from what background do you hail from? You have a very unique perspective which I am still trying to puzzle out.
I am assuming you are an American with obvious pro-German ties. Either you are of German/Irish descent, or so happen to be supportive from a purely ideological standpoint.
No need to answer if it makes you uncomfortable, I am merely curious.
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231 champagne charlie writes:
"...or a resident who hates the country she lives in and the people that live in it, but has married one"
How can you get things so wrong? You're just taken in and repeating deliberate falsehoods by CBW which he falls back on when he can't win an argument and which he indulges in with everyone who disagrees with his opionions.
I like living here and like our friends and enjoy most things - I certainly wouldn't live in a country I disliked. What I don't like is the few people on this blog who denigrate anyone else who tries to question the rosy picture of their past history, especially those like the three I mentioned who live abroad themselves. After all, you haven't heard me lauding my native country or saying 'My country right or wrong'. I don't believe in jingoism - it is, if not dangerous, then just ludicrous.
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#233
margaret;
"I like living here and like our friends and enjoy most things - I certainly wouldn't live in a country I disliked."
Well you could have fooled me! But I guess you did. So, I apologise.
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#232 Malkava
-- I´ve travelled a lot -- also to former British colonies ---where their legacy was obvious.
Comparing societies and recent histories was a hobby picked up on the way.
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#227 Samson
Sorry, your comment came rather soon after my posting to be seen as separate from it.
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champagne_charlie
Re #233. 8:22pm on 18 Nov 2010, margaret howard writes: "How can you get things so wrong? You're just taken in and repeating deliberate falsehoods by CBW which he falls back on when he can't win an argument and which he indulges in with everyone who disagrees with his opionions."
C_C, You've not been taken in by me concerning Margaret Howard!
Here's a taster of our Margaret showing her affection for England:
No. #40 on 11/09/2010 MHoward wrote, " Yet another 'celebration' of the Blitz this week (and by the way, not Britain celebrating, just England as we Scots, and no doubt the Iirsh & Welsh are normally quite indifferent to all those celebrations) you know the different ones just about every week, the Blitz, Dunkirk, VE Day, VJ Day, Veterans at War Day, Poppy Day, Women of WW2 Day, National Commemoration day ad nauseum - - lest we forget - - not very likely with this this lot goping on."
And that from a woman who has repeatedly denied she ever denigrated the Charity 'Poppy' Appeal or Remembrance Sunday for the armed services!
Then, just plucking a random sample from the fragrant Margaret's litany of bile, No. #113 06/09/2010, "..You should see the kind of English Criminals the Spanish people in the Costas have to put up with. Thousands of them & their brash wives.."
Well, obviously Scots, Welsh, Irish don't ever holiday in the Costas... only the 'criminal' English!
Or, we could take a look at Margaret's reflections on History as in No. #40 on 11/09/2010 when she wrote, "..Had it not been for WW1 you (England) would still be trying to add yet more countries to create the so-called 'greatest Empire... the Kaiser's war put a stop to all that.."
So, the former Empire wasn't British at all, aye Margaret, only & purely an 'English' affair!?
C_C: It's not only the hypocrisy, it's her bare-faced attempts to later deny she ever wrote such stuff really astonishes me. By all means everyone should write as they feel (and I DON'T support Mod censorship).
Then, they should at least have the gumption to stand by their views and not try to weasel & weadle their way out as in MH's case by trying to play the misunderstood, loyal Scot's housewife!
What Margaret really objects to on this blog is people who expose her prejudices & bigoted views.
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225. At 5:46pm on 18 Nov 2010, Nik writes: So starting from that fairly ok point Greece went on to
- to be accepted finally in the then EEC by 1978
- to be governed up to today by the following ND & PASOK governments
1) Konstantinos Karamanlis (the elder): 1974-1978, 1978-81
2) Andreas (Andrew) Papandreou-Mineyko : 1981-85,1985-89, 1993-96
3) Xenophon Zolotas : 1990 (all-party government organisasing elections)
4) Konstantinos Mitsotakis : 1990-93
5) Konstantinos (Aaron Avouri) Simitis : 1996-00, 2000-04
6) Konstantinos Karamanlis : 2004-07, 2007-09
7) Georgios (Jeffrey) Papandreou-Chant : 2009-today
What strikes first is that apart the functional all-party govenment, the 11 governments that enterred the country in the EU and ruled it up to today were 4 sirnames (as well as... only 2 names but that is a funny coincidence, I hope! Kostas has to be a very common name):
So by order of years we have the Papandreous, Karamanlis, Simitis, Mitsotakis. And in that you have to count countless underlings of their families in all critical positions. In reality all these names had monopolised the political life even prior to the 2 dictatorships! From there on, the striking part is the presence of foreign names which is also accompagnied by the presence of foreign passports.
No argument from me! Fantastic facts: Greece once more becomes a valid 'Democracy'; Greece by vote of Greek Citizens joins the prevailing 'political union' of mainland Europe; and Greece is ruled by a series of Greek Prime Ministers & Governments formed from Greek Political Parties elected by Greek Citizens!
EXTRAORDINARY! WOW! What a shocker!
Question: Apart from the norms of 'diplomatic' inter-action what the heck has any of that to do with the UK or the USA????????????????????
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Aww, Pate,
Darn you are nice and Irish,
(and me so bad and American)
I sure hope Marcus is ok--
he is old like me
One hates to see the big ones fall
:)
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#237
CBW;
I dont like the anti-English/anti-British stuff any more than you do and will continue to challenge anything and everything I think inaccurate or unfair, out of context, biased or bigoted. But we all run the risk of making this whole thing far too personal, myself included, and my accusations were wrong.
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237 CBW writes:
"Then, just plucking a random sample from the fragrant Margaret's litany of bile, No. #113 06/09/2010, "..You should see the kind of English Criminals the Spanish people in the Costas have to put up with. Thousands of them & their brash wives.."
REPORT FROM THE TIMES
"POLICE from Britain and Spain begin a campaign today to round up fugitives hiding on the Costa del Sol, amid concerns that Spain is becoming a main hub for British crime.
UK authorities hope that Operación Captura will help to disrupt criminal networks that they fear are becoming entrenched in the area around Málaga, on the southern coast of Spain. The Serious Organised Crime Agency has identified the area as an important base for British criminals directing international drug-trafficking networks.
Those sought by UK police in Spain include escaped prisoners, murder suspects, drug traffickers, fraudsters, counterfeiters and robbery suspects. British gangs sully the good name of Costa del Crime
“We’re talking about drug-dealing, criminal gangs, murder, major bank robberies — very large-scale, serious crime, it’s about major British criminals who are hiding on the Costa del Sol. In some cases, they are continuing to run their criminal operations in the UK from Spain. That’s the information we’re getting from the police in the UK.”
Underworld figures from Britain have long sought refuge in the 350,000-strong British community living in the area around Málaga, prompting tabloids to dub it the Costa del Crime. In contrast to the old generation of criminals, who came to “retire” in Spain and tried to stay out of trouble, new entrants are using the area as a base for criminal operations in Britain.
Extracts from a much longer article from the Times - hardly known for its anti-english sentiments. The main gangs fighting for control are Mancs, Scousers and Cockneys.
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C_C
Re #240 & #237
I agree it's got way too personal of late: I'd step back only this anti-English stuff has been going on for a couple of years now and increasing in its absurdity & ferocity.
I'm resolved from my next contribution on the following blog (already wrote in a couple) to halt my decline from civilised debate.
However, I will never concede to the bigots like MH. IMO I have demonstrated by quotes she attacks every facet of England & English people as though nothing decent, honourable or learned ever came from England. By her contributions everything that was/is rotten concerning a 2,000 year old Isles' community was/is only ever the fault of the English. It's cant: Nothing more, nothing less.
Apart from which, quite what my living abroad has to do with my views anymore than the Scottish woman living abroad in England I'm damned if I have yet been able to make out!?
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C_C
It's not that we are persuing Your support: Even Margaret doesn't stoop so low, but MH & I are coming at all matters from very different angles. Exchanging views with a relatively neutral contributor is IMO healthy for the blog.
So, Re #241 & MHoward
See what I mean: She provides a quote that all through refers to 'British criminals' - - her original comment referred only to the 'English' - - apart from which the headline, 'Costa Del Crime' was first used 25 to 30 years ago!
I note MH doesn't provide the TIMES' article date of publication, but I believe this one may be from June 2005: That's quite a bit of gutter trawling MH!
Now, if I were to quote articles referring to Triad, Mafia, Yardie gangs etc. also in the UK and actively involved on the Continent would I be alleging each of their original Nations is rotten to the core!?
Because MH, that is what You do everytime You conveniently lop off the 3 Union nations and refer to the 'English'!
Then again, I can see how my exposing Your snide comment about 'Poppy' & 'Remembrance' days has caught You out & You're feeling vulnerable.
Don't worry Margaret: As I wrote earlier, I'll not mention any of it again.
Everyone interested/bothered has surely read & knows the truth by now.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#243 - cool_brush_work
I really would not bother if I were you. She lives in England (her remarks about the legal system confirm that), probably moved there to indulge her husbands love of Elgar (infinitely better than McCunn) and only has the one outlet to vent her anti-English spleen. Let her get on with it.
The oak tree, on the other hand, needs to be turned into furniture as a matter of some urgency.
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Ohhh, noooo
If Marcus comes back he'll see my nice comments
about him,
ohhhhh, noooo,
(screams and clutches chest)
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#242
"Apart from which, quite what my living abroad has to do with my views anymore than the Scottish woman living abroad in England I'm damned if I have yet been able to make out!?"
Nothing whatsoever, your views are as valid as anyone elses, and certainly far more than any foreigner waxing lyrical from afar based on stereotypes and on cheap newspaper headlines.
There is a risk of blinkered nostalgia though, you must accept that, but I dont see why Englishmen cant be nostalgic for their homeland, when every year thousands of Scottish people and their descendents around the world, or Irish, or Germans, celebrate nostalgic events from their when they have absolutely no intention of ever returning to live there again. I attended a "clan" festival in Colorado, what do you think was the proportion of people I spoke to who "just adorrrrrred Scaaartland" but had never been there, couldnt tell you one thing about the place and certainly wouldnt live there, but "yah my granddaddy was a highlander"? Just ask Sean Connery,that great Bahamas tax exile,Scottish nationalist himself who apparently has no intention of returning to Scotland until it is "FREEEEE!". Of course given that he is 80, thats quite an easy pledge to make.
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245 threnodio writes:
"...her husbands (sic) love of Elgar (infinitely better than McCunn)
WHO'S McCUNN?
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I would say that ´discretion is the better part of valor ´when attempting a defense of the British Empire and trying to spread the blame to British Serfs !
eg.´Britain apologized for role in the Slave Trade´???? etc.
Threnodio -- and my ancestors were also victims of mass British slaughter -- please mention this with respect --or your dogs will get another thick- branch whacking !
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#249
quietoaktree;
" and my ancestors were also victims of mass British slaughter"
Do tell, with detail. Dont go all shy now.
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C_C
They were slaughtered to build ships for the slave trade !
Hear´s another good one !
http://www.british-redcoats.co.uk/index.htm
--Continent after Continent !
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#251
"They were slaughtered to build ships for the slave trade !"
Who were? Specifically.
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#251C_C
oops ! read-- Here´s
I dont want Threnodio to get a tantrum and the necessary change of clothing !
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C_C
Or should it be Incontinence after Incontinence ?
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#252 C_C
Great- great uncle Charlie, his wife Acorn and their pregnant children !
---and all for the crown ?
--what a sacrifice !
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#249 #251# 253 #254 #255
There there...ssshhh....its all right...the nurse will be along soon...ssshhh. (strokes QOT's head)...go to sleep....
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C-C
We are proud of our family tree.
---roots and all !
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C_C
--- Have you roots --or only illegitimate branches ?
--- the nurse ( thank the NHS God) treats all ?
--or will the God also be privatized in the UK ---to save money ?
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quietoaktree- Please be a quiet plant. And please stop polluting Mother Earth with those tiny acorns of thought that drop from your extremities.
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Some are simply not given to understand.
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"I am assuming you are an American with obvious pro-German ties. Either you are of German/Irish descent,"
This is funny. To try to put people into boxes so one does not need to bother other ones opinions any more.
So this is Am-Ger-Iris talking, so thats it. Wont need to read what he says or answer to actually message and messages facts. Seems to be the same thing whatever country or language conversations I'm taking part on.
In some countries people are more polite, some more blunt. I prefer blunt. It was amusing and funny when somebody called me 'Pate for brains' - it gave me upper hand, Sun Tzu.
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"239.Stevenson wrote:
Aww, Pate,
Darn you are nice and Irish,"
Not Irish, but every irish people whom I've every known were very nice, fanny and joyful. The greek that I've met are honest and fair people. Hard working family guys and girls. I like english people too, quick thinking and with good sense of humour.
But british bankers and business people I hate, slick, greedy and slimey. And here we are talking about them. Greedy pound speculators.
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#261
"This is funny. To try to put people into boxes so one does not need to bother other ones opinions any more."
#262
-every irish people whom I've every known were very nice, fanny and joyful.
-The greek that I've met are honest and fair people. Hard working family guys and girls.
-I like english people too, quick thinking and with good sense of humour
-But british bankers and business people I hate, slick, greedy and slimey
Pateforbrains strikes again!
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pate
Re #262
Pardon my rudeness, but exactly how any top British bankers etc. do You know?
Personally, I loathe the way the Financial sector of the UK has been allowed to get-off 'scot-free from the Economic debacle its avaricious, bonus-driven senior executives allowed to go on unfettered.
I sincerely believe some top Bankers from the Boardrooms should be serving Prison sentences.
That said, I don't know enough about any of them to say which ones should face prosecution even at this late date.
Do tell us all: Which 'slick, greedy, slimey' one is it You know about?
Then again, if You actually don't know any don't You think the word 'stereotyping' may fit Your views.
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Re #249, 251, 253, 254, 255, 257, 258
Oh dear!
Let's just draw a veil and quietly move on to the next blog.
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Maybe they should rename the Euro the Yugo.
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OMG someone please tell the Scot who McConn is, but then there are so many.
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#259 Samson
---its Autumn.
--Whats your excuse ?
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#266 Samson
---and the Dollar -- the Yugodown ?
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#261
My goodness, you seem to have quite the chip on your shoulder, Pate. My inquiry was directed at quietoaktree, and I was under the impression that he/she was not offended by my speculation. It is up to quietoaktree's discretion whether or not to correct me - with which I will humbly amend if my assumptions prove false.
"This is funny. To try to put people into boxes so one does not need to bother other ones opinions any more."
I am puzzled by your statement. I do not recall a time where I was dismissive of quietoaktree's views. I commented that it was rather unique, and I was curious as to what shaped this particular view. It should not come as a surprise that people's opinions are largely shaped based on their personal life experiences - which may include where they were raised and their culture background. I am also aware that it is not always so.
You have also neglected to mention the other portion of my quote. Allow me to fill it out for you: "...or happen to be so from a purely ideological standpoint."
In the future, please be mindful that snippets of a statement can quite easily be taken out of context when one wishes it to be so. Your vehement accusation is not necessary in this case.
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#270 Malkava
I was in no way insulted by your question.
Maybe I should add (repetition) that I have lived in North America, Britain and Germany for long periods.
--perhaps the throw of the dice is my problem ?
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#270 Malkava
´---idealogical standpoint ´-- Very difficult to answer.
I visited Haiti when Papa Doc was in power, Greece when the military were in power, Bulgaria, Hungary and DDR under Communism and America when it was denying Sputnik.
---a potpourri of experiences --with no unifying logic.
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#269 and #272 quietoaktree
Yugodown- Very funny. I like it. Sputnik wasn't denied in the USA, it was decried. How could anyone deny Sputnik when it went beep, beep, beeping across the night sky every hour and a half. The Soviet Union deserves a heartfelt thank you for providing a much-needed kick in the ass that got mankind all the way to the moon.
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271. At 00:37am on 20 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"#270 Malkava
I was in no way insulted by your question.
Maybe I should add (repetition) that I have lived in North America, Britain and Germany for long periods.
--perhaps the throw of the dice is my problem ?"
AND,
272. At 01:02am on 20 Nov 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"#270 Malkava
´---idealogical standpoint ´-- Very difficult to answer.
I visited Haiti when Papa Doc was in power, Greece when the military were in power, Bulgaria, Hungary and DDR under Communism and America when it was denying Sputnik.
---a potpourri of experiences --with no unifying logic."
Interesting: Revelations of the former DDR servant coming thick & fast!
So many places in strife: And You were 'only following orders' in each from granddad President Honecker.
Troubled conscience: Guilt-complex building up!?
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My friend in Germany frequently complains that since Germany gave up the DM the price of everything kept going up. Time for Germany to return to the DM and let other undisciplined economies firgure out their own paths.
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CBW
--and on the British Colonial side
Jamaica, Quebec, Sri lanka, Malaysia, Cyprus, Malta, India (Including the wonderful British detention on the Andaman Islands -Port Blair). And of course England, Scotland and Ireland. --hope I haven´t forgotten any ?
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#275 ndbt
---many a true word said in jest !
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Re #276
Too late to chip in with more: You tried & missed with yet another dubiously one-sided point as it's evident the 'colonies' don't all speak English.
As for, ".. And of course England, Scotland and Ireland..."
'England'?
You lost it on the previous blog with a series of gaffs - - think You should consider laying off the hard stuff for awhile - - You're doing no good to Yourself & even less to others!
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#278 CBW
--´As the island of the uninformed´- its place in the list is justified !
--You and some others have confirmed this.
However I do request that you refrain from attempting John-Bull- faece´ing ME !
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Re #279
There's a saying: "Once a stooge, always a spoon!" from Ye olde Englishe for 'shallow, prating duffer' - - it's right on the mark for You.
If the 'BS' is getting too much for You then try contributing something honest, factual, relevant and unprejudiced.
Until such time You'll get precisely what You dish out and thrice the quantity!
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#280 CBW
---do you consist of anything else ????
(apart from the accompanying hot air)
--and pride in ignorance of the world ?
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"how any top British bankers etc. do You know?"
Two and one guest banker from Sweden. One Oxford guy I met spending EU money like waste. Rest of the bankers we all meet in the tabloids. Don't we. And I really do hate them. Is currency speculating some kind strange thing to you all? Or do you like it? The Pound does speculate every day and every second and does it against euro too, and at the end there is bank crisis when we people pay, like this one in Ireland now.
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Re #281
Tut, tut... I'd say You were losing Your grip, but as it was never really there I can only assume Your grip(e) is all it ever really was...
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"263 champagne_charlie wrote:
Pateforbrains strikes again!"
What should I answer, the obvious about the champagne and the brains? Not me. Your comments are very nice, Thank you about them. I'll learn so ... about them.
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"264. At 7:40pm on 19 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
pate
Re #262
Pardon my rudeness, but exactly how...don't You think the word 'stereotyping' may fit Your views."
This conversation is all about stereotypes: greek all bad, EU all bad, euro everything bad and so on.
My answer is that UK also bad, pound also bad, dollar also bad.
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"275. At 4:23pm on 20 Nov 2010, ndtb wrote:
My friend in Germany frequently complains that since Germany gave up the DM the price of everything kept going up. Time for Germany to return to the DM and let other undisciplined economies firgure out their own paths.
Yet my pop just bought new Audi and my aunt new BMW. Jaguars and all british cars are much too expencive. Becauce of pound? Think about that.
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#285
"My answer is that UK also bad, pound also bad, dollar also bad."
You like mammoth? Me no like mammoth..mammoth bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8561sf6Bg7s
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Pate
Re #285 & #286
Don't agree, the debate is not all about "..bad..": It is about whether or not it is a beneficial idea for the UK and 26 other Nations plus their 500+million Citizens to ally themselves in a rigid political-economic-judicial entity for the foreseeable future?
That could be termed a good or bad thing, however I think the arguments go deeper and nothing is branded as wholly good or bad, only more adequate or inadequate for what are the requirements of incredibly differing Nations reaching from Valletta, Malta to Helsinki Finland and Dublin, Ireland to Bratislava, Slovakia.
Question: What ..all british cars"?
A range of well-known motors are manufactured (part/wholly) in the UK, but these are Toyota, Honda & Nissan (Japan) Vauxhall (i.e. General Motors, USA), Rolls Royce (i.e. BMW, Germany), Jaguar (i.e. Tata, India), and so it goes on.
Now be honest Pate, You don't know much about car manufacturers & prices in the UK or come to that EUrope, do You!?
And, as for the Pound, it's about 1Euro.15Cents to each £1-00, so I doubt very much the exchange rate is the key to sales of vehicles.
Think about that.
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"You like mammoth? Me no like mammoth..mammoth bad."
Like Champagne, Champagne is good, the real one. French champagne. The british bubble-vine only bubbles like it's yellow presses headlines, not tasty.
ps. Why don't you english just play along with everybody else, well all love you too : )
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#288
"Now be honest Pate, You don't know much about car manufacturers & prices in the UK or come to that EUrope, do You!? "
Lets ask his pop, I think Pate is about 12 and should really be in bed by now.
"The british bubble-vine only bubbles like it's yellow presses headlines, not tasty."
What the hell? Sprechen sie Englisch?
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"Now be honest Pate, You don't know much about car manufacturers & prices in the UK or come to that EUrope, do You!?
And, as for the Pound, it's about 1Euro.15Cents to each £1-00, so I doubt very much the exchange rate is the key to sales of vehicles. "
I see the car prices on the windows and in the ads. Audis and BMWs are barcain now. Also Huyndais, beats me? But I'm not a car expert. I just tell what I see and know.
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Re #289. 20 Nov 2010, Pate writes: "ps. Why don't you english just play along with everybody else, well all love you too : )"
It is called Democracy: This is a unique political concept in which the Citizens irrepective of red, yellow, pink... press or whatever are free to form their own opinions as best they can in the circumstances and then are able to express those opinions without fear or favour.
In this UK case, there are those who are 'pro-EU' and there are those (like me) who are 'anti-EU': Unlike in the docile, timid mainland EUropean political scenario where almost all genuine debate among Citizens about the EU has been stifled from its red, yellow, pink etc. press & entire Media the Free Expression still retains a slight hold on the British.
We Britons generally really like mainland Europe: It is great place for a holiday, very good for business and the culture & people usually first-rate experiences. However, much as we enjoy all those fabulous advantages none of that means British Citizens want to be ruled from mainland EUrope - - not in the past - - not in the present - - and for certain not in our children & grandchildren's future!
No offence.
(I'd draw a doubly big 'smiley' but I don't know how)
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"more adequate or inadequate for what are the requirements of incredibly differing Nations reaching from Valletta, Malta to Helsinki Finland and Dublin, Ireland to Bratislava, Slovakia."
Indeed so. The british do usually forget this and they think that UK is the right way, but there is really not the one right way. There is only diplomatic way. The way that takes everybody to concern.
I am little bit sorry about this discussion, because you brits are way too aggressive to blame everybody else. My country is EU:s net-payer, but toll open borders makes business flourish, bigger and better. To everybody.
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pate
Re #293
Not all Brits... some really like the EU and think as you do: IMO a Referendum on UK Membership is far from won by my 'anti' side.
Don't know your nation, but UK is the 3rd largest population and 2nd/3rd largest Net contributor to the EU: Finland, where I live, population 5million is totally 'Yes' to the EU and also a large Net contributor, so I do recognise Your point about, ".. the way that takes everybody concern..".
It is fine for You to 'feel sorry' for the way the debate goes re the British opinions, but remember alongside Your claim of the 'flourish' with 'Open Borders' has gone the massive increase in illegal emigration, illegal trafficking of vulnerable women & children, illegal smuggling of drugs, weapons, counterfeit goods, cross-border criminality on-a-scale the Police Forces have been unable to cope with.
And for what? Just so, You or I don't have to sit in a queue for 30 minutes to show a Passport!
I don't consider that a gain for mainland EUrope or the British Isles: I believe it will come to be seen as one of the greatest social-political-economic disasters of the modern era - - in some ways on a par with the catastrophe of a slave trade for west africa - - Europe is a time-bomb of building social disharmony & disorder.
"My country is EU:s net-payer, but toll open borders makes business flourish, bigger and better. To everybody."
IMO that may be a statement You and many others 'pro-EU' will come to bitterly regret within this decade.
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Breaking News-- Homo heidelbergensis, long thought to be extinct, continues to thrive in its motherland.
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#293
pate;
I think that you, sir , forget four key points. Firstly, the UK has been a net contributor to the tune of £200bn. Secondly, the UK is already in "toll open borders" with Europe. Thirdly, the UK is in the European Union whether you believe it or not. Fourthly, the UK does not have to take "everybody to concern", it has enough on its plate dealing with its own problems.
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British cars are all too expensive? Which cars are these? They are owned, many by foreign companies...there are no nationalities anymore...
only corporations that have to follow rules in different nations. And we are connected by parts made in every place in the world ..before they are manufactured in some nation (Mexico, Russia, Poland...)
Many American cars are assembled in Mexico ...and the jobs there are appreciated (Mexico) if not as well paid as elsewhere--
but then prices there are not what they are ..elsewhere!
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Pate,
when I went to France, we toured a sparkling wine "factory" or wine..something. And the sparkling wine there was better than the champagne I tasted later -- real champagne. So, its all a matter of taste...I dislike dry and like sweet.
Many white wine drinkers like dry and sour and I like dark red wines-merlot--I must like cheap wine ...which is nice.
German wines I always think of as white wines, but it may be the same in all wine producing places...variety and quality differences.
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#297
"British cars are all too expensive? Which cars are these? They are owned, many by foreign companies...there are no nationalities anymore..."
There are no British mass produced cars anymore. But there are several successful huge foreign car plants in Britain. Go figure.
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"296. At 8:38pm on 20 Nov 2010, champagne_charlie wrote:
...Firstly, the UK has been a net contributor... Secondly, the UK is already...Thirdly, the UK is in the European Union...Fourthly...has enough on its plate dealing with its own problems."
And now the pound is speculating against Euro. This economic situation is dollars fault; too greedy dollar bankers. And now dollar and pound are battling against euro. Someone is gonna lose and I really want the loser to be dollar, because it's guilty to all this. Greek state nor irish banks would not be in crisis now without USA crook bankers.
Dollar is already down and for reason. Euro should not be.
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"298. At 10:05pm on 20 Nov 2010, Stevenson wrote:
Pate,"
OK.
I prefer beer. There are very good ones in English beers too. And Irish.
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"294. At 8:20pm on 20 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
pate Re #293
...Finland, where I live, population 5million is totally 'Yes' to the EU and also a large Net contributor,"
Yes we know that you finnish are all nice guys, white clean and are EU net payers and I think that Ollie Rehn is a good man in difficult place. They hate Rehn in Turkey and in Greece, but he is doing very good job for EU and is helping Ireland.
English diplomats are mostly playing only for the benefit of pound and scheming with dollar bankers against euro.
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Pate
Re #302
I'm English & reside in Finland.
Not everyone in Finland is 'white'.
Rehn is another jobsworth at the EU - - the Finns report almost everything he says with alacrity - - I've no idea of his popularity in Finland or anywhere.
NOT 'English', but British 'diplomats' and they're NOT doing any different for the interests of Britain than are diplomats for every other Nation in or out the EU.
How You can imagine French, German, Dutch, Russian, Chinese, American, Indian, South African etc. diplomats could do anything other than 'WORK' on behalf of their own Nation, only You can explain!?
Reading Your contributions it is becoming clear You are yet another 'it is all the fault of the British/English' who somehow blames Britain/England for everything that is wrong in the World and in the next comment claims Britain/England is 'living in the past' - - it is hilarious double-talk!
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303 writes:
"Reading Your contributions it is becoming clear You are yet another 'it is all the fault of the British/English' who somehow blames Britain/England for everything that is wrong in the World and in the next comment claims Britain/England is 'living in the past' - - it is hilarious double-talk!"
GRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN !!!!!!! Not again! Give the needle a push and play another tune - it's long overdue.
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MHoward
Re #304
Pot, calling kettle!
Give Yourself a very long, long, looooooooooooooooooooooooooong look in the mirror: You might find hsilgnE-itna engrained on Your forehead.
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"303. At 5:09pm on 22 Nov 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
Reading Your contributions it is becoming clear You are yet another 'it is all the fault of the British/English' who somehow blames Britain/England for everything that is wrong "
Sorry about that. I was opposing all writings where euro was all to blame. The real truth may lay in somewhere between. Just pls allow me to help you to find it, the truth.
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