Death of Tory Euroscepticism?
Some imagine, mistakenly, that they have quietly joined the endangered species list.
Before the UK election there was fear in Europe that a British Conservative Party would usher in an era of hostility towards Brussels. The new intake of Tory MPs were said to have a "visceral" dislike of the European project. This was a party committed to repatriating powers from Brussels.
The leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg, before the election accused David Cameron of having chosen European allies who were "nutters" and "homophobes". It was assumed that Cameron would have strained relations with Merkel and Sarkozy and that Britain once again would be isolated in Europe.
Then came the election and coalition government and everything changed. The Conservative-Liberal Democrat nuptials were scarcely completed when the idea of "repatriating" powers from Europe was quietly dropped.
Almost immediately David Cameron signalled he wanted to co-operate with Europe. Paris and Berlin were his first ports of call. William Hague said the new government wanted to be activists in Europe. They emphasised areas of agreement. The Tories wanted to extend the single market and David Cameron set himself up as the champion of Turkey's entry into the EU.
The crisis in the euro helped. It was widely seen as a flawed currency. The Liberal Democrats were forced by circumstances to curb their enthusiasm. The Tories believed their distaste for the Euro had been justified by events.
The government would not use British money to bail out the euro, but there was no schadenfreude coming from London. A strong, healthy single currency was in everyone's interest - that was the official line and that, too, played well in Europe.
Part of this was the reality of sharing power with Nick Clegg, a man who cut his political teeth in Brussels. But before the election David Cameron decided he would not choose fights over Europe. Sure he had told the electorate "I want to be in Europe but not run by it". But in power he had no intention to get drawn into fights over Europe, which had destroyed previous Conservative prime ministers. The Conservative leadership, as far as was possible, wanted to park Europe as an issue.
So the smiling faces of British ministers have charmed the suspicious in Brussels. And it has gone beyond presentation. The government has accepted a new European Banking Authority that will have powers of supervision over banks and financial institutions. A second watchdog will oversee markets and securities and a third pensions and insurance. Even though some argue that these bodies will give EU officials "a mandate to enforce EU laws at the expense of national regulation," the UK government has not objected.
The government has not stood in the way of an expansion of powers in the field of justice and home affairs and the European arrest warrant. Britain has accepted the new European diplomatic service, despite its costs and its ambitions for Europe to "speak with one voice".
Now this has not gone unnoticed by Tory activists who believe the party's views on Europe are being diluted. A poll of activists found that 71% regarded it as unacceptable to drop proposals to bring back powers from Europe.
One commitment the government is sticking to is to introduce legislation to hold a referendum on the transfer of new powers to Brussels in any future EU treaty.
But for both activists and the government more challenging days lie ahead.
There is the matter of the British rebate. The EU Budget Commissioner Janusz Lewandowski has already hinted that the rebate is "no longer justified". This year it is worth £3.1bn.
The rebate is of totemic significance to many in the Tory party. It was won by Margaret Thatcher in 1984, when she banged the table and demanded "our money back". Many in the Tory party will expect David Cameron to keep the rebate. But, in extremis, would he veto the entire EU budget to preserve the British rebate? It's what officials refer to as the "nuclear option".
Then there are the Commission's proposals to enforce sanctions against those countries that breach debt and deficit levels. Initially they will only apply to countries in the eurozone, but the Commission hopes to extend this to all 27 countries including Britain. British officials have already been briefing that "the UK is exempt from all sanctions". The British say that under Article 126 they have a clear opt-out. Many in the Tory party will expect David Cameron to use that opt-out if necessary.
In the proposals to get an early glimpse of national budgets the government has said that British budgets will be delivered to the Westminster parliament first. But there are officials in Brussels determined to be involved at the earliest stages of drawing up the budget. Will the UK compromise?
William Hague has pointed out that there is a "profound disconnection between the British people and what has been done in their name by British governments in the European Union". In power the government has chosen to be pragmatic, choosing carefully its battlegrounds. It may not be what the activists hoped for, but the real tests lie ahead. They will define what kind of European David Cameron is and whether he has laid to rest Europe as the most divisive issue within his party.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~49~RS~)
I'm 
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Gavin Hewitt.
"Will the UK compromise?"
while the British establishment continues to prefer to work hand-in-glove with the US of A, no good for the EU (and for Europeans) will come of UK involvement.
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GH: "Britain has accepted the new European diplomatic service, despite its costs and its ambitions for Europe to "speak with one voice"."
Without EUSSR agreeing first on a common foreign policy?
[forget any common defense or even energy policy within Disunion]
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As always the British govt talks tough and then caves in.
European arrest warrant is widely seen as an unmitigated disaster. It assumes that all countries have competent and even handed handed criminal justice systems with proper respect for the rights of the accused. Sadly, what the European Arrest Warrant has proved is that a number of countries have justice systems that fall far far short of what is acceptable in the UK.
Agreement to European wide supervision of banking and capital markets will be a disaster. EU officials are not in the business of ensuring that London is an efficient and world leading market. They will be driven by the diktats of EU politicians and in particular France and Germany who have as a policy aim denigrating London. One only has to look at the proposals on hedge funds to realise that policy in this area is driven by bigotry not facts.
We have no common culture with Europe, no common understanding of the purpose of govt or how laws work. Eventually we will realise that the EU has nothing to do with the people and is simple a means to create jobs and self gratification for second rate politicians
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Justin150 #3.
"We have no common culture with Europe.."
apart from speaking a Germanic language and being Anglo-Saxon, that is..
LOL
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
William Hague has pointed out that there is a "profound disconnection between the British people and what has been done in their name by British governments in the European Union".
And pray, what is William doing about that disconnection? Zilch, zero, nada, nothing.
He is a typical politician: He says one thing whilst seeking poular vote and then, once elected, plays the "we must be pragmatic" card to avoid the need to actually bridge the disconnection or assist the inevitable break of the UK with the EU that I believe will happen sooner or later.
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@ justin 150: I agree with your sentiments regarding the European Arrest Warrant, but don't see that as a reason not to have it. OK, there are countries with below-par justice systems but their membership of the EU "club" allows other members to pressurise them to improve. And that is happening (according to my police sources). I am told there have been some spectacular pan-EU arrests recently in relation to organised crime, thanks to the EU Warrant.
You seem to think that every other country in the EU is against the UK? But if you read of the reactions of those other countries to many of the ideas promoted by the EU Commission you would soon find there is not a common front on everything; not even between France and Germany.
As for "second-rate politicians", that may be the case in the EU (I don't know) but is not so here on mainland Europe. The EU is often a useful career-progression.
My reading of the UK government's position is that they are being pragmatic.
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jr4412,
You need to read the The Mists of Avalon. You might like it. But, it says Saxon raiders blah blah blah..
Its interesting...and Europe should be concerned that without a UK nation in it, the European continent is less secure economically and influentially.
Without the good ol US of A, you would not have a British culture--the money spent there on your culture--which Americans do love or did love until Japanese culture became the most influential "foreign" culture.
Put your money in Japanese culture and you will have a great time in Britain. They are at least peaceful in their pursuit of money. We owe THEM greatly. Maybe YOU should owe THEM greatly.
David
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It is all about the money. Loans being supported by coalitions of European governments are holding things together for now. Deals are usually from a position of strength. As the bankers bring more bad financial statements to the governments the problem continues. Apparently the bail-out was only the first installment. Bonuses will be big this year.
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David #8.
somewhat agree re Japanese culture, as for the rest of your comment -- what did you put in your pipe, can I have some too?
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#4. At 4:55pm on 04 Oct 2010, jr4412,
Which part of today's UK are you referring to as I'm sure many would like to live there.
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#7. At 5:38pm on 04 Oct 2010, frenchderek,
"As for "second-rate politicians", that may be the case in the EU (I don't know) but is not so here on mainland Europe. The EU is often a useful career-progression.",,
Sorry you have clearly missed the point, the EU is the place where all failed has beans find refuge. Is that career progression or milking the dry cow even more.
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#8. At 7:25pm on 04 Oct 2010, David
I'm getting worried about you David, the Japanese were always a very insular country and effectively closed, why do you think the inscrutable expressions mean they like the USA?
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Buzet23 #11.
"Which part of today's UK.."
"English is a West Germanic language that arose in the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of England.."
yeah, I know, you couldn't make it up. ;)
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EUSSR? Hah!
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Gavin & Menedemus,
Please see here:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
for further details of William Hague's "profound disconnection". Note that this was a month after the General Election, so whatever Hague was doing it wasn't vote-gathering.
And I believe that Daniel Hannan has called, also since the General Election, for a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU.
I think a lot depends on the aforementioned Tory activists. How hard are they prepared to push their government for a meaningful dialogue with the British people about the EU?
PS I note the abundance of EU flags at the Ryder Cup, and the statement of congratulations from Barroso. Is the Ryder Cup now the US vs. the EU?
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The new Euronic law will have Brussels checking every member's national budget even before their parliament gets to see it. They will determine what each government's priorities shall be and how much they can afford to spend on every one of them. The notion that these nations will ever be free of Euronic control short of war is a delusion. Eventually even that will be impossible as the Eurocenter will take control over all national armed forces which will be used cross border to put down any insurrections against its authority. That is how totalitarianism works.
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jr4412,
My pipe is MY pipe. Get your own. Don't worry Buzet, I'm not off off off my gourd ...as of yet.
I'm just saying that Japanese sell many items to us. They may not like us but we do like their culture.
Also, We do owe Britain much for their culture and we do love it. Lets see ...what else...ummmm for using cricket to "invent" baseball. For being there when no one else is. And for being an inspiration to Americans...
whether they like it or not. But Japanese culture--games, anime, and comic books are quite popular here as are Playstation, Playstation 2, 3, Nintendo, and anime are quite popular here.
Someday, when I'm dead ish...nursing home...Chinese culture will be THE thing.
But, I'll always appreciate the British for many many reasons, not least for their ambition and tourist destinations.
I am of Irish descent. BUT I like Britain better, because they are more interesting to me and those Irish terrorist were ...MEEEAN. Many liberals were for Ireland...but
I know my history and know that Ireland was the place Britain was most vulnerable to attack from Catholic nations. Therefore the Irish were treated ...badly.
And so by visiting London made me like ..well...London alot. It was so surprising after Paris--it was just like Paris--not a disapointment like I had feared.
I've never visited Ireland, but I do read books about Ireland (fiction). Even Trinity by Leon Uris did not make like Ireland better than the UK.
Anywaysssss.....
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MMMMM that last pipe was tooo much for my poor lungs...
But now Marcus seems sooo nice :0)))))))))))
LOLOLOLOL
And I still love Web Alice...so I'm into her posts always I guess.
M Howard is wonderful...y'all just don't get her. See pipes can be funzies.
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17. At 00:46am on 05 Oct 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:...
again!
The question of interest to every enthusiastic lay psychologist has to be: what traumatic experience occurred to make MarcusAureliusII so boringly hostile to all things European?
My guess is that he was rejected -- or worse, laughed at -- by some comely young European girleen when he was in his late teens or early twenties. Thus emasculated, he was left permanently scarred psychologically.
In the mental dynamic of such a trauma, as we all know, he quickly -repressed- the experience and banished it from memory altogether.
Then, unable to cope with the reality of his rejection/humiliation in a realistic way, his mind left him no recourse but to -projected- his sublimated feelings of inadequacy onto Europe-at-large.
A text-book case. Probably too late to do much about it now, even with the best treatment.
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#17
Any country can leave the EU whenever it wants. No State can leave the US without it being declared unconstitutional ,resulting in war and annexation. Lecture us on how totalitarianism works again.
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Why is Swiss Finance Minister laughing so hard?
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Strange-News/Giggling-Politician-Hans-Rudolf-Merz-Is-YouTube-Hit-After-Cracking-Up-During-Parliament/Article/201009415742554?lpos=Strange_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15742554_Giggling_Politician%3A_Hans-Rudolf_Merz_Is_YouTube_Hit_After_Cracking_Up_During_Parliament___
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Re: Negative impact of artifically low prices of Chinese products on other countries' economies.
Jukka, you may want to read this:
http://www.technewsdaily.com/us-sitting-on-mother-lode-of-rare-tech-crucial-minerals-0281/
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Much of politics is filled with little poeple whose bigotry and self certainty gives rise directly to damaging consequences for the people they pretend, or even, self deludingly, think that, they are helping. [I'll not give examples as they are far to many.]
Being against something, anything, is a simple minded and intellectually easy position. The British red top press loves to find people and institutions to hate - long ago these papers started making up stories about banning the British sausage, for example [actually nicked from an episode of 'Yes Minister']. This type of nonsense gets repeated and is corrosive.
We need to be part of Europe (and the Euro) to maximise the benefit and well-being of our people. So when out of power the Tories rant and rages against Europe and it all goes silent when they have to live in the real world - I expect that the Labour party (the alternative Tories) will now take up the mantle and rage against Europe.
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Everything the UK Coalition Government has acquiesced on with regards to new EU policies is something that can be argued as not a 'bad thing' per se for the Governance of the UK.
Even the closer supervision of the City is not without its merit: Though I certainly foresee it as an 'administrative' oversight error that will undermine the vast London Financial Services sector from competing Worldwide. Nevertheless, it will close off Brussels' encroachment beyond that 'oversight' for the time-being; aftyerall, there isn't an Accountant/Financial advisor in the EU or ECB who can Balance Greece's EUro-books, so much less likely they'll understand never mind involve themselves in the really serious business of International Financial Transactions.
Apparently Cameron-Clegg-Hague have gambled the UK/England grass-roots Conservatives & general Citizens can live with these EU-led alterations to British policies on Financial-Judicial-Foreign Affairs.
Though the abiding queston is what became of the Conservative vow to consult & acknowledge the British Citizens' views on EUrope? Hague speech-making about the 'profound disconnection' and then doing precisely as 2 decades of Foreign Minister predecessors did and utterly ignoring the British Electorate concerns is not a recipe for the internal Party & National arguments over EUrope to be banished forever.
I strongly suspect the EU as an issue will reappear in full ferocity as the UK Parliament legislation guaranteeing a Referendum on 'Treaty Changes' comes to the floor of the 2 Houses. It may determine the outcome of the Coalition: Cameron & Hague will need to convince their majority EUro-sceptic MPs not to rock-the-political-boat by imposing tight clauses that prevent a future Tory Government evading a Referendum (Clegg & his Lib-Dems will of course much prefer a very loosely worded addition to the book of Statutes).
Ironically, the key-wording content & fate of the Coalition's 'Referendum Bill' may be decided for the UK/England by EU Budget Commissioner Lewandowski - - if the Commissioner succeeds in his intention and drastically reduces the UK Refund - - then the hostility to Brussels amongst Conservative MPs (& almost certainly a large enough rump of Lab MPs) will ensure the main clauses of the passed Act will be extremely tough constraints that will make it impossible for any new Treaty or changes to present treaties to get assent in the UK/England without a Referendum.
If a Referendum in UK/England is undertaken then all bets are off on the future configuration of the EUropean Union! Who knows the thought/threat of a UK/England withdrawal Vote (I'm not saying that is the outcome) may just galvanise those lazy, conniving, duplicitous MEPs & Brussels apparatchiks like Barroso to actually get off their self-aggrandising rears and fundamentally REFORM the EU before it is too late.
For all the pragmatic political pleasantries of the present: IMO, the fight over the continued UK Membership of the EU without fundamental Reform of Brussels is far from over.
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Nail pounder, you can change the subject, invent lies, but you can't change the facts. What was once your country is now a captive province of the EUSSR. Even Britain has finally resigned itself to being assimilated. Resistance is now futile. Those who live within its walls will be morphed into one homogenious gray characterless Euronic culture. In fifty years what was once Italy will outlaw pasta as Brussels finds a reason it is unhealthy. Meanwhile I'll bet Britain has already given up wrapping fish and chips in newspaper because the ink the grease absorbs contains lead that will poison them. Eventually they will be forced to give up fish to save the oceans. Eurons will live on tofu and other vegetable matter. They've already proven they can't safely manage growing animals for food by creating massive outbreaks of hoof and mouth disease and mad cow disease and they disparage American meat as contaminated with hormones and antibiotics. It's just one more step in turning them all into emasculated vegetarians. Ice water runs through their veins.
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#26
"Meanwhile I'll bet Britain has already given up wrapping fish and chips in newspaper "
Yeah, 30 years ago.....whats the chances you'll get that through your head and stop posting about it and, preferably, a country you know nothing about? None, of course.
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16. At 00:24am on 05 Oct 2010, CornwallCoastPath wrote:
"PS I note the abundance of EU flags at the Ryder Cup, and the statement of congratulations from Barroso. Is the Ryder Cup now the US vs. the EU?"
The EU flag is also the general Flag of Europe, used by the (seperate from the EU) council of Europe, of which every European nation is a member.
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"7. At 5:38pm on 04 Oct 2010, frenchderek wrote:
@ justin 150: I agree with your sentiments regarding the European Arrest Warrant, but don't see that as a reason not to have it. OK, there are countries with below-par justice systems but their membership of the EU "club" allows other members to pressurise them to improve."
I am sure that young man rotting in Greece after being fitted up by the Greek excuse for a Police force could find a reason. Clearly innocent and yet the British government had to send him to Greece despite it being obvious as a fit up.
"All rise! Court is in session. Judge Skippyos presiding."
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The EAW should be there AFTER the dodgy areas of Europe have their systems up to scratch and not before.
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JR4412 re #4 & #14, Frenchdereck re #7 & Buzet23 re #11:
Justin150 at #3 has a valid point.
The 'cultural' linkage between the British Isles & Continental Europe is at best an indeterminate phenomena.
The English Language did emerge from a variety of mainland in-puts and reflects the constantly changing indigenous population influx over many centuries. Nevertheless, modern everyday usage of English is distinct from that of European languages: If the connection were as strong as some imply then there would be no general recognition English was the 'international' language (much as France may resent it being so).
Likewise, most parts of British/English 'culture' can trace formative roots in Roman, Viking, Norman etc. plus the various impacts of Faiths: However, I would argue the modern 'culutural' equivalence between the UK and Continental Europe has as much divergence as convergence.
E.g. Britain's Legal system is based firmly on the concept of evolution via Common Law: It is one of the significant factors that makes the 2 decades of non-stop encroachment of EU Law so dilaterious to the Rights & Responsibilities of UK Citizens - - their version of Law was never used in the British Isles post-1485 & Henry VII's ascent to the Tudor Crown - - that is a gap of 500 years which contributed to wholly differing methods of Policing-Judicial authority & powers.
E.g. Britain's path toward Democracy in various areas took a different approach to that of the mainland - - so, whilst Bismarck's unified Germany had a Parliament the authority lay with the Crown to a much greater extent than in G.B. - - in 1914 it was the Kaiser declared war, whereas in Britain it was the elected Prime Minister & his Government.
E.g. British Constitutional Monarchy: The long-time target of so many on these blogs who would gainsay the UK political scene has yet to be trumped by the various constitutional outcomes of Elected Presidential Heads of State - - therein lies a major Democratic pointer for Britons & EUropeans - - why would any UK Citizen believe Msr von Rompuy, or Commission President Barroso, or come to that, whoever is the EUropean Parliament President is a better choice for Head of State than the 'politically' ambivalent & 'culturally' inherited position of members of the House of Windsor?
E.g. Four Union Nations with 'devolved' Government of varying degrees may in time come to choose entirely their Self-Determination political path, but 'culturally' to claim an affinity with the Continent of EUrope exceeds that inter-Union experience is to deny the reality of the past 700+ years - - indeed there are immensely more Scots, Irish, Welsh & English connected families throughout the 64 Commonwealth of Nations than there are with any Nation just 30 miles (48Kilometres) across the 'English' Channel!
Continental Europe has long since ceased to be an 'enemy' of G.B., and thank goodness the 'cultural' ties and shared interests are now so strong that any sort of conflict is so remote as to be not worth consideration.
However, that is not to be taken as a justification (as power-aggrandising Brussels' leadership & some jobsworth Britons claim) for direct 'Political' integration between the British Isles and the EU. There was not and never has been any UK-wide Citizen Mandate to abandon the unique 'Cultural' differences by committing to absorption of the Continental version at the expense of the UK/England centuries old yet constantly reinvigorated customs, traditions & practises.
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MAII
Re #26 & the animal diseases prevalent in UK-Europe: I was just wondering how did that recent Flu Pandemic affect the ultra-high standard, hygiene-conscious USofA?
Oh that's right!
The largest number of recorded cases & the 2nd largest number of reported deaths from the Flu were in..
the USofA...
Maybe, somehow, even if only for a moment, You could consider the idea that relishing the impact of specific tragedies on peoples is not really condusive to a reasoned debate?
No, sorry, what was I thinking?
It is MAscaridII, so no realistic thought process yet identified.
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It would be a much better show of British Nationalism if the ´The usual suspects´finally realized that the only way they are going to leave the EU -- is feet first and in an EU-flag draped coffin !
They all admit every elected British government have made their anti- EU stance into a show of political naivety on their part, yet stress themselves out banging their heads against the wall on every blog.
If they really wanted to show nationalism in these difficult British times -they should have accepted this simple fact of British life -- instead of ruining the NHS with their ´teething pains´and accompanying anxiety.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ministers-declare-war-on-britains-tranquilliser-crisis-2017933.html
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Will the UK compromise, nope, not a chance, we will - as always - bend over, grease our ..... and do as we are told.
We have a spineless bunch at the top who have no interest in protecting this country and would sell their own mother for the plumb job they plan to inherit on leaving power.
This has been the case ever since Heath took uis in - even Thatchers huffing and puffing was absolutely to no avail as she signed into British law more and more destructive and disasterous 'directives' from Europe.
Heath should be charged with treason probably along with every prime minister since.
A poxy 3 billion back- consider the cost to the UK every single year of supporting every other country in Europe (except Germany which shares the pain with us, but has far more wealth creating real industry). We are subsidising their standard of living from our backs and it should stop.
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Stop voting in the big three and perhaps you might get some proper anti-EU policies...just a thought.
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The death of Tory Euroscepticism.
May she rest in peace!
Winston Churchill initiated the UK-US special relationship, but President Obama doesn’t exhibit much enthusiasm for it.
Each new PM, including Cameron, has reaffirmed this “special relationship”. But if you can’t see that its’s lost its lustre, then you'd best stop looking through the lens of nostalgia.
Did you know that Britain was an American preferred recipient re foreign direct investments (FDI)?
2007 - $450bn.
2008 – 1/3 of all American FDI projects were in the UK.
So when Gordon Brown as chancellor of the exchequer, indefinitely postponed the UK joining the eurozone, it was based on the pragmatism of economic ties by which Gordon Brown defined the “special relationshiup”.
Then there’s that nasty unequal status. Remember the American reference to the UK as “junior partner”.
It’s rather pathetic that British leaders keep justifying their Americam attachment as the only means of legitimizing Britain’s status as a great power (i.e. the influence they have over US decision-makers - which I do believe is somewhere between 0 and 1%).
Slights as slight as they may be are confirming that the special relationship with Britain is becoming less & less special:
1. the restitution to the UK of a bust of Churchill (which decorated the Oval Office during Bush’s term)
2. the minimalist conversation that Obama granted Brown during the UN General Assembly
3. tensions re the release on health grounds of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi
4. Obama reference to the oil slick as a BP “an ecological 9/11.” In fact Obama fiercely attacked BP; he even summoned its CEO Tony Hayward to appear before a House of Representatives. Obama and his aides systematically referred to BP as “British Petroleum”. With friends like the Americans, isn't it time to turn one's face towards the EU?
So, what is the best way for Britain to become a catalyst for change in Europe?
a) stop talking about "repatriating" powers from Europe; at least become selective because several of these powers may be helpful to Britain. E.g. The Coalition Government's acceptance of the new European Banking Authority that will have powers of supervision over banks and financial institutions.
b) signal a strong desire to cooperate with Europe. E.g. The Coalition Government has not stood in the way of an expansion of powers in the field of justice and home affairs and the European arrest warrant.
c) seriously contemplate conversion from pound to EURO in order to strengthen EU tie.
d) stop with the “bring back powers from Europe”. What will the UK do with these powers without an attachment to either the US or the EU?
The referendum on the transfer of NEW powers to Brussels should be sufficient.
e) stop resisting the submission of the British budget to Brussels prior to Westminster. There are some very clever, wordly-wise ecomnomic persons in Brussels. Why not let them their a gander before going off half-cocked and making a fundamental financial blunder?
In this world, a country needs friends. Since the Americans have decided to be rather Uksceptic, why not make the natural turn to the open arms of the EU?
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"Being against something, anything, is a simple minded and intellectually easy position. The British red top press loves to find people and institutions to hate - long ago these papers started making up stories about banning the British sausage, for example [actually nicked from an episode of 'Yes Minister']. This type of nonsense gets repeated and is corrosive."
No easier than being for something. A whole lot of legislation and bans are bought into this country - whether it is sausages or something else - as a result of our membership of this. Some of the things are due to EU legislation, some due to the stupid in power believing they should do something to 'integrate better' (such as the metrification nonsense). We are ALL aware of the various laws and their different interpretations in France (especially) and even Germany. Take the anti smoking rules - where I was in Germany there is still smoking in pubs - because they put a Raucher Club sticker in the window... we don't ever implement the rules with that level of flexibility.
"We need to be part of Europe (and the Euro) to maximise the benefit and well-being of our people. So when out of power the Tories rant and rages against Europe and it all goes silent when they have to live in the real world - I expect that the Labour party (the alternative Tories) will now take up the mantle and rage against Europe."
Absolutely NOT,we have always contributed to this 'club' more than we have got from it. Don't waste breath talking about our need to be 'in the club to export' for two reasons, first we have from the start been a net importer from the EU, and for a second it is blindingly obvious that neither the gulf states, Russia or China have any problem exporting to us despite not being part of the EU. The rules and regulations which swamp our industry, the restrictions put on our government about subsidising and helping companies are routinely ignored by the rest of europe but continually used to destroy our economy. The government have no given up even our supposedly important banking/finance industry (which personally I would see shipped to Outer Mongolia tomorrow) to the control of someone from a foreign country who has the interest of that country far ahead of the interests of Britain.
I don't blame the current coalition, the labour party managed this mess no better, the only way to fix it is to get out!
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#37 Anotherfakename
Very few German pubs allow smoking depending on size, owners and meals.
The draconian anti-smoking British attitude resembles --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany
Now you condemn German flexibility, while praising British inflexibility and absolute obedience to Laws ????
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Re #33
QOT provides yet another daft 'link' that almost bears no relation to the UK/England dilemma over membership of the EU.
It needs no comment as once the link is read in its enterity it is clear the actual confusion is all in the mond of QOT.
In fact the idea an article on 'over-prescribing' of Valium is pertinent only insofar as it suggests the medication QOT has sadly lacked for all the time he has made these absurd contributions!
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31 CBW writes:
"Nevertheless, modern everyday usage of English is distinct from that of European languages"
In the same way that for instance Greek is distinct from French, Spanish from German, Danish from Bulgarian etc etc. Just what does that prove? Latin used to be the universal language of Europe. In previous centuries all learned men in Europe wrote and spoke in Latin. Newton for instance wrote all his works in that language as noone could understand English. The language of diplomacy was French. So what, things change and once America has lost its position as a super power (and I think it is well on its way of doing so) English too will lose its attraction as it was largely America that set the tone for English to become universal.
"Anglo-Saxon law (Old English ǽ, later laȝu "law"; dóm "decree, judgement") is a body of written rules and customs that were in place during the Anglo-Saxon period in England, before the Norman conquest. This body of law, along with early Scandinavian law and continental Germanic law, descended from a family of ancient Germanic custom and legal thought. However, Anglo-Saxon law codes are distinct from other early Germanic legal statements - known as the leges barbarorum - in part because they were written in the vernacular, instead of in Latin."
Here again,of course English law adapted and changed from the original Roman and Anglo Saxon law. I don't know much about law in for instance Scandinavian countries today but no doubt they too moved on from original tribal laws to modern day constructs. There is nothing here that makes the UK unique any more or less than Spain is unique, or France (I don't want to belabour a point here but you get my drift).
So get used to it, CBW et al, we are all unique which shouldn't stop us from joining together after centuries of bickering or destructive warfare to form a strong and united continent of Europe that can compete with the commercial power blocks that are now forming in the modern world. Petty nationalism is as dead as the proverbial dodo. Adapt or perish.
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38. At 4:28pm on 05 Oct 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"Very few German pubs allow smoking depending on size, owners and meals.
The draconian anti-smoking British attitude resembles --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany
Now you condemn German flexibility, while praising British inflexibility and absolute obedience to Laws ????"
While on Wiki, try checking out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
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#39 Corporal CBW
I read with interest your diatribe against the DDR media -- I agree.
Your half Knowledge avoided the DDR knowledge that Dresden was known as `the valley of the uninformed´because they could not see West Germany´s television.
I have used this comparison to accuse Britain of being `the island of the uninformed´ --from personal experience it is still apparent.
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It's very easy to be offensive when you're in Opposition. The Conservatives know fully well we are one of the big players in the EU. Our economy as well as culture, lifestyle are all linked very closely with the rest of Europe.
We have a say in running The EU. Now the Conservatives are in government (with the Liberals as the junior partner) they have to work alongside their EU colleagues, they will not get far being Euro sceptic. Leave that to the fringe loony parties ie UKIP.
It would be good to see the Conservatives look for more ways to pool our resources in these economically tough times - how about a European defence force/ army for starters?
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Re #42
Yes, I did know that: But well, it's nice to leave the odd little tid-bit for the mini-serial doom merchants such as You.
Unfortunately, Dresden was indeed that unlucky plot in more ways than one as we all know.
However, as Your countless immaterial jibes & misconceived 'links' have revealed time and again what You know about the modern UK extends from 'A' half way to 'B'!
Don't let me stop You trying though: This blog needs all the humour it can get & Your contributions surpass most.
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#41 Benefactor
--- Better you aimed at CBW and other anti EU- local nationalists --Germany has learned from its past ---many others NOT and still claim racial and national superiority.
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MHoward
Re #40
Margaret, don't tell me You didn't read it in full again!?
I wasn't setting out to prove 'anything' very much: I was agreeing in basics with the contention that English has its roots in similar ancient regions as the rewt of Europe.
Following that I went on to explain my view that whilst Language, Law Politics etc. all have some commonality there was a distinct difference between the 'Cultural' impact felt on the Continent compared to the British Isles.
Re "..get used to it CBW..": Get used to what?
I note in essence Your #40 validated my view though You tried to draw an alternative scenario.
Margaret, I'm unsure You understood this wasn't about the use of 'English', so I'll just back off from whatever bee was in Your bonnet about something I wrote.
You are in error in one respect: English Common Law is very different from that Legal system which evolved & is practised on the Continent. I'm sorry, but even a cursory glance at the UK's un-written Constitution framework plus its Judicial & Investigative arms demonstrates this beyond any doubt.
I don't believe the British Isles/United Kingdom/4 Union Nations benefit from membership of the EUropean Union: To my mind the '700 years' of 'union' I mentioned demonstrate Continental Europe has had a fundamentally different experience and the UK doesn't need to give up anything for supposedly/allegedly superior mainland 'cultural-political' systems that are experimenting over 20 years with an entirely new framework that precludes the Citizens from direct Democratic involvement.
IMO, the UK doesn't do a lot better, but why throw out the ancient for the new when nothing about the 'new' has any proven value at all!?
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MHoward
re #40 & use of Latin by Isaac Newton.
As an aside to my #46 I would add that Latin was the universal language of Scholars throughout the centuries and had nothing much to do with 'mis/understanding' of 'English Language'.
As You correctly state French was the Diplomatic Language (used by the Tsar's Court & some Foreign Embassies right upto 1914 - - indeed some of the minor faults for the outbreak of WW1 are ironically allegedly due to 'misunderstanding'/'mistranslation' of Diplomatic Telegrams) and like English had partial origins in Latin, but it wasn't the Language of Science or of individual States.
Language is not what defines the 4 Union Nations anymore than it does the 40+ European ones.
Accidents of History & Demography explain the definition much more clearly, e.g. Brazil is a Portuguese-speaking State due to the Pontiff's careless use of a 'rule' to draw a straight line on a Map of the New World neither he nor anyone then alive appreciated for what was to follow!
'Get used to it': Get used to English continuing to be the Worldwide language of communication though it is hardly England's English anymore - - not with the dissemination of patois USA, Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, West Indies, India etc. - - what's to get used to in a Language whose strength is its very flexibility!?
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CBW
Your ´modern Britain´ is still at the level of WW11 and before.
The social critic Norman Wisdom has died --he had no delusions of British life --unlike yourself and other uninformed island inhabitants.
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Re #45
I'm intrigued: Do quote QOT those who "..claim racial and national superiority.."?
Or, is it that the actual use of logic, reasoning and soundly based points of view to Debate and oppose the political-construct EU is beyond Your capability to rationally argue so You are reduced to repeating tired old libels & stereotypes about Britons!?
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#42. At 4:57pm on 05 Oct 2010, quietoaktree,
How true, throughout all the world there are so many uninformed, and from your comment "from personal experience it is still apparent" it is clear you number yourself in that band.
#43. At 5:03pm on 05 Oct 2010, Philip wrote:,
OMG, are you kidding, knowing the liberal/Socialist ideas of the EU the only time an EDF would be used is to stop a member state withdrawing, I would suggest you remember Czechoslovakia and Hungary before suggesting a pooling and creation of an EDF, although I sure the empire builders in the EU will agree with you.
#41. At 4:56pm on 05 Oct 2010, Benefactor
That's a good phrase, I must remember that one as it typifies some of the posts made here by those who continually refer to events a long time in the past or conspiracy theorists, are you listening QOT and MH?
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CBW
As you have not rejected my accusation of political naivety (#33)--- I will no longer press the point on something we agree.
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#49 CBW
´Modern Britain´ -- was that before the EU ?
--- or is now the ´Modern Britain´?
Either choice is unattractive -- by your own admission.
There is a nail on the fence you are striding !
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#48
"Your ´modern Britain´ is still at the level of WW11 and before."
Really? After 37 years in Europe, from the EEC to the EU, we've actually gone backwards to 1945? Thanks for that perfectly good justification for why we should leave the EU.
"Social critic" Norman Wisdom?!? What?! LMAO. If you dont know who SIR Norman Wisdom OBE actually is, please dont use his name to make some fatuous point.
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Home Service Radio transcript (amended for brevity):
"Mr Grimsdale! Mr Grimsdale!"
"Yes Pitkin, what is it now?
"Mr Grimsdale there's... ermmm, there's... eeerrrm..."
"Well Pitkin, out with it man! There's a what?"
"There's a mo...a mouse.."
"A mouse! Where Pitkin?"
"In the... in... the cat.."
"Cat Pitkin, what cat?"
"The cat in.. in your c..(muffled & garbled..)"
"Pitkin, say it lad, where is this cat & mouse?"
"Car, Mr Grimsdale!"
"Car Pitkin, where, what car?"
"Your... your car..."
"My car Pitkin! But you parked my car outside, didn't you Pitkin!"
"Yes! And no.. It's not... It's.."
"What do you mean yes and no, Pitkin?"
"Mr Grimsadale, sir.."
"Where's my car, Pitkin?"
"Oooh, errm... it's down the hill.."
"Down the hill. What's it doing there?
"I was parking when I saw the mouse on the back seat.."
"Yes Pitkin."
"I put the cat in the car to frighten the mouse.. and.."
"And what Pitkin?"
"The cat chased the mouse and the do..."
"The what Pitkin? The what did you say?"
"The do..."
"Spit it out lad!"
"The dog saw the cat and jumped in and chased the cat chasing the mouse.."
"Pitkin! Pitkin, how did my car end up parked at the bottom of the hill?"
"It didn't."
"Didn't what, Pitkin?"
"Par..."
"Park, what do you mean it didn't park?"
"Well you see Mr Grimsdale the dog had the cat in its mouth and the cat had the mouse in its mouth and I, I.."
"Out with it!"
"I had my foot on the accelerator instead of the break-pedal..."
"My oath! Pitkin where's my car?"
"At the bottom of the hill.. by the lam..ost (muttered).."
"The what?"
"The lamp-post, Mr Grimsdale."
"My car is at the foot of the hill by a lamp-post?
"Yes, Mr Grimsdale."
"How close by the lamp-post Pitkin?"
"Sort of... very.."
"Pitkin!"
"Yes, Mr Grimsdale?"
"You're fired!"
A byegone age of innocent fun.
QOT is as silly a twerp as 'Pitkin' to mention Norman Wisdom.
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QOT
Re #51
And I will take that silence on 'quotes' of national & racial superiority as yet another climb-down due to Your total lack of veracity and an ineptitude using referenced sources that is fast becoming legendary on this blog.
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#16 - CornwallCoastPat
"Is the Ryder Cup now the US vs. the EU?"
Yes - did you have a problem about winning it?
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#42 -quietoaktree
"I have used this comparison to accuse Britain of being `the island of the uninformed´ --from personal experience it is still apparent".
Of course you did. I would expect otherwise. This presumably explains the conditions of abject misery in which most Britons live while you are doubtless basking in the sunlit uplands of paradise. Well they do say ignorance is bliss.
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#55 - cool_brush_work
Your are rising to it again. He is not worth the effort.
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I have as yet not heard any logical arguments against the Brit skeptics being carried out feet first in a coffin draped with the EU flag.
All British governments have and still want it so.
Are you only arguing about the graveyards name --or which British government are your pall bearers ?
Please clarify !
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cool_brush_work #31, #46.
broadly agree with your remarks about divergence and the passage of time.
"IMO, the UK doesn't do a lot better, but why throw out the ancient for the new when nothing about the 'new' has any proven value at all!?"
I think that this is partially due to the fact that no UK government since Thatcher has been serious about co-operation within the EU (at least not in spirit), and the 'new' was never given a proper chance. (a cynic might argue that there's more profit in discord ;))
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#59 - quietoaktree
"I have as yet not heard any logical arguments against the Brit skeptics being carried out feet first in a coffin draped with the EU flag".
Then you clearly have not being paying attention. The logic is that the British genius for compromise will prevail. Those of us in the EU-enthusiastic camp know perfectly well that we cannot drive the agenda because we have to first of all address the inherent flaws in the Union as it is presently structured. Equally, in their heart of hearts, the sceptics know that they cannot buck the tide of history. Contrary to what many posters seem to think, the coalition is showing a remarkable aptitude for steering a middle course and should be given some credit for it. Since the British union is far more of an anachronism than the European one, the chances are that, if anyone is going to "carried out feet first", it will probably be the reactionary diehards, presumably accompanied to the strains of the Last Post and still trying to figure out how to square "at the going down of the sun" with "an empire on which the sun never sets", wrapped in the the union flag. (It is only a Union Jack if flown from a ship - and it is my language and I will spell 'sceptic' correctly and to hell with spell checkers).
Looking on the bright side, at least we have a graveyard to which to go. Were we instead to be wrapped in the Star Spangled Banner, it is more likely that we would be cremated - probably while still alive.
Clarify what?
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threnodious, Britain should join the Euro so it can apply for a bailout loan from Germany the way Greece did.
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"Any country can leave the EU whenever it wants." (commonsense_expressway, 21)
Oh really? So how exactly does that work? What mechanisms are in place for determining whether a country wants to remain in the EU? Do EU countries have regular referendums to gauge public opinion on EU membership? I'm not aware of any country out of the 27 that does.
Not long ago a BBC opinion poll (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/7949104.stm) showed that a majority of people in Britain would like Britain to leave the EU. Have we left the EU? Err, no. In fact we haven't even had a referendum on whether to stay in or leave the EU. In fact we haven't even had a national debate on whether to stay in or leave the EU. In fact there's barely even any acknowledgement among politicians of the results of this and similar surveys.
So one might be forgiven for thinking that the right to leave the EU is more theoretical than real. Perhaps on a par with the Queen's right to dissolve Parliament on her own initiative.
"Petty nationalism is as dead as the proverbial dodo." (margaret howard, 40).
You may well be right. But nationalism on a scale so vast that it seeks to turn a huge, diverse continent into a single nation obviously isn't.
I agree (as would most people) on the destructiveness of warfare. But it's worth remembering that one of the (many) causes of warfare and terrorism has been the perception - justified or otherwise - by groups of people that their desire to exist as an independent nation has been thwarted by their absorption against their wishes into a larger geopolitical unit.
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#61 Threnodio
That the Brits on this blog have a problem with their many elected governments and how they interact with the EU --is fine with me. But after being lied to for decades by their elected governments, the continual blaming the EU for what THEIR democratically elected national representatives do --is taking it a bit far.
The incessant childishness of pretending to be politically intelligent while masking naivety with a veil of undeserved national pride is to be expected and accepted in a kindergarten. Looking at their own society to explain their dissatisfaction is apparently beyond the comprehension of many.
´The British genius´ sounds more like Marcus and has the same level of explanation, avoidance and non-thinking nationalism, which I am sure you did not intend to convey.
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I consider PM Cameron to be of weak character. This seems to have been reaffirmed by his support for the USA's policy of having Turkey join the EU.
I am of the opinion that he will be out manoeuvered by the EU and we will loose more ground to the Federalists during the term of the current Government.
I hope the true Conservative party finds it's voice soon.
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20. At 03:01am on 05 Oct 2010, Curt Carpenter wrote:
"17. At 00:46am on 05 Oct 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:...
again!
The question of interest to every enthusiastic lay psychologist has to be: what traumatic experience occurred to make MarcusAureliusII so boringly hostile to all things European?"
EUpris: It may interest you, but I have better things to do with my life, like protesting against the "EU"-Greater European Reich.
He is sometimes right.
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There is no realistic alternative to leaving the "EU".
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Around here, anti-"EU" Tories have voted for a plonker who comes out with the usual "EU"-lovers rubbish about how the "EU" has been bringing peace in Europe for forty (?) years.
Presumably they did so because the voting system and the media bias make it appear that UKIP has no chance.
We are the prisoners of the "EU" because we have a rubbishy voting system resulting in rubbishy people being elected to the House of Commons.
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Since we do not have a functioning democracy, we need to circumvent the rubbish in Westminster and find new ways of protesting at the "EU"-Dictatorship.
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Not much longer before the next "European" elections.
Many who voted Tory last time must now realise that their vote was wasted.
UKIP OUGHT to get the biggest vote next time.
UKIP should IMUO not be a right wing party.
Hating the "EU"-Dictatorship is not a right wing thing.
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Turkey in the "EU"!!!!
Yet another reason to run out of it screaming!
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40. At 4:45pm on 05 Oct 2010, margaret howard wrote:
" .... Petty nationalism is as dead as the proverbial dodo. ..."
EUpris: No it isn't! The "EU" is about sick, megalomaniac nationalism. When I talk to "EU"-lovers they soon start bad-mouthing the Americans. Hitler had the Jews. "EU"-lovers have the Americans.
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42. At 4:57pm on 05 Oct 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"...I have used this comparison to accuse Britain of being `the island of the uninformed´ --from personal experience it is still apparent. ..."
EUpris: British people are sufficiently well informed to know that much continental policing is fascist/heavy-handed/unacceptable/reminiscent of a police-state etc.
Continental policing on its own is sufficient reason to leave the "EU".
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40. At 4:45pm on 05 Oct 2010, margaret howard wrote:
" .. we are all unique which shouldn't stop us from joining together after centuries of bickering or destructive warfare to form a strong and united continent of Europe that can compete with the commercial power blocks that are now forming in the modern world...."
EUpris: The continentals have a greater tendency to dictatorship, corruption, police-state etc and that is a very good reason to want not to be in a political union with them.
People like you have to persuade the majority of Brits to want it.
You failed to do so but rammed the toxic political waste down our throats anyway.
In so doing, you demonstrated your fascist tendencies and made it even more obvious that we have to resist "EU" fascism and megalomania.
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40. At 4:45pm on 05 Oct 2010, margaret howard wrote:
" ... So get used to it, CBW et al ..."
EUpris: The people of Britain and others parts of Europe did not want your Constitution/Lisbon Treaty/Greater European Reich.
You get used to it!!!
The imposition of the Lisbon Treaty was fascist.
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I , like many other Eurosceptics , find the soft line the Conservative/Libdems are taking with the EU a little disquieting .
The EU has become excessively intrusive in the internal affairs of all member states . Listening to recent reports related to the Conservative party Conference , there have been strong demonstrations by British Conservatives against this intrusion .
I am not sure that Britain's association with the EU matters so much at this time . With or without Britain the EU is in trouble as seen by the demonstrations in Brussels and other European cities . British people are not the only ones , of whatever political leaning , who are not satisfied with the EU today .
David Camerons approaches to Turkey and pleading for Turkey to enter the EU , will not please some other countries , such as France .
The Idea from the Libdems to hold a referendum , with a view to introducing proportional representation could result in benefitting the British people . Britain might then have a government with fewer Conservatives , Libdems and Labour , but including the UKIP and BNP . At present few people will vote for the latter parties , for the doubt that they could form a government and national administration . UKIP and BNP as part of a PR government could carry some weight of opinion .
The EU should be encouraged to carry on interfearing in the minutiae of the 27 nation states till all the people are up in arms . I read comments that British people are ignorant and uninformed . Those who think so should do a tour , to consult educated opinion in other countries . I speak from experience in Italy , where I found that very few of the educated people knew anything about their own government or the EU , nor were they interested .
The concepts of the EU are wrong from the start , the Euro is perhaps the biggest mistake the EU ever made . Many economists and currency experts believe it is only a matter of time before the Euro collapses . The idea that the EU is stronger , to hold its own , in global affairs is mistaken too . Big is not always beautiful and when it lacks credibility , as does the EU , it will have an uphill struggle to hold its place in the world .
Whatever the game the Conservatives/Libdems are playing I don't think it will do them , Britain or the EU any good .
I believe that Conservative Party leaders haven't the Guts to stand up to the EU or arrange for Britain to leave the EU . Leaving would mean accepting a very uncertain future , albeit that it might be for the best . Britain was not a founder member of the EU , but though it might surprise many , is looked to for direction by people of other European states , I know from experience , because of the stability of British Democratic government over many years . If Britain were to leave the EU , as many British people would like , it would be like taking a foundation stone from a building , that would cause it to fall .
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I am sure that Quietoaktree is a woman .
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"Eurons will live on tofu and other vegetable matter."
It may be worth pointing out that despite its scientific sounding name euronics is no a science.
Although it deals with very small particles.
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"Take the anti smoking rules - where I was in Germany there is still smoking in pubs - because they put a Raucher Club sticker in the window..."
I wonder whether Germans have put a similar sticker on the door of a certain well known Hamburg mosque.
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Jukka, some other artificially cheap Chinese dumping products:
"China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) has begun marketing two new precision-guided munitions to increase the accuracy of indirect-fire support weapons. Both the new GP4 120 mm Terminal Correction Mortar Projectile Weapon System (TCMPWS) and GP1 155 mm Laser Homing Artillery Weapon System (LHAWS) feature inertial guidance and semi-active laser (SAL) homing for terminal control"(Janes)
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"Get used to English continuing to be the Worldwide language of communication though it is hardly England's English anymore - - not with the dissemination of patois USA, Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, West Indies, India etc. - - what's to get used to in a Language whose strength is its very flexibility!?"
Perhaps margaret should appreciate that even some al-Qaida and Taliban members based in Pakistan have to speak some English out of necessity.
[E.g. "Could you spare some IEDs we'd like to ship to UK?"]
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"I consider PM Cameron to be of weak character. This seems to have been reaffirmed by his support for the USA's policy of having Turkey join the EU."
You're kidding?
If anhything it proves a rather strong character and backbone, since all major members of continental EUSSR (France, Germany, etc.) are vehemently AGAINST admitting Turkey.
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ThrenodioII
Re #58: Yes, but QOT is such an open target it's near impossible to resist - - e.g. obviously totally oblivious of reality he described the so recently deceased, great, comedian Sir Norman Wisdom as a "..social commentator.."!
I mean: How could anyone NOT find that so absurd as to feel the need of Sir Frankie Howard to, "...have a little titter.."?
Re #61: IMO this was somewhat disappointing from You in the last few sentences; whilst appreciating You were referring to the 'diehards' it serves no useful purpose to reinforce the QOT stereotype of UK Citizens with "..Last Post... going down of the sun.." etc.
Re #64. As for QOT's reply to You he appears fixated on Britons' political 'naivety' whilst denying the reality which is the UK must engage with the EU at all levels whether in or out. As for the successive UK Governments not allowing Citizens a voice in that 'engagement' well it would seem to me post the debacle of EU defeat in Referendum on the Constitution that denial of the Right of participation & consultation by 500,000,000 Citizens is fairly much the Political status quo across the EU27 (Ireland being the laudable exception).
QOT constantly hunts the trivia of UK political affairs when the wider perspective of the EU27 categorically demonstrates a total by-pass of traditional Democracy via the Ballot box by Brussels & to some extent all the National Governments.
Thus QOT scores 'own-goals' everytime he contributes: An archetypal blinkered 'pro-EU' seeing only the British as opposing the present EU set-up when EUropean leadership is clearly afraid of its own Citizens' views.
QOT is not 'naive', but unfortunately for him, just utterly ill-equipped to take any meaningful perspective on any of these important topics-of-the-day.
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#83. At 08:41am on 06 Oct 2010, cool_brush_work,
Having just heard on breakfast tv an interview with William Hague it seems he will be presenting a Sovereignty bill today at the conference which will force a referendum on this and future governments for all EU power grabs. It will be interesting to hear the fine print.
#77. At 06:04am on 06 Oct 2010, Huaimek wrote:
"I am sure that Quietoaktree is a woman ."
Now you come to mention it you may well be right, after all QOT always thinks it's right, will not listen to reason and logic and is often irrational.
PS. Not you of course Alice.
#60. At 11:05pm on 05 Oct 2010, jr4412 wrote:
"I think that this is partially due to the fact that no UK government since Thatcher has been serious about co-operation within the EU (at least not in spirit), and the 'new' was never given a proper chance. (a cynic might argue that there's more profit in discord ;))"
There was no need to give the 'new' a chance, not with 26 other examples of what it means and what it leads too. The duplicity of the EU and its co-operation, or rather solidarity as they love to say, is like a conjurers trick, slight of hand. The recent furore about France and the Roma's has shown that as it exposed directives that France had signed up to yet ignored from their National law, this is the tip of the iceberg and the titanic which is the EU is fast approaching it.
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Just thought I'd mention Greenland. Joined the EEC in 1973, had a referendum and left in 1985.
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Re#77
"Tie a yellow ribbon on a quiteoaktree".
or something like that.
BTW. re margaret's disparaging comments about Alice's posts (here and in the European blog):
No man could be as vengeful and mean-spirited to other man (even a mortal enemy) as a woman against a woman.
Particularly perceived as a rival. Even in a blog.
[yes, I suppose it IS a sexist comment]
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I've noticed that the Eurons are strangely quiet about the methods American interrogators used on their terrorist captive in Afghanistan last summer to get the information about what was clearly a plan to attack Euronic cities even if that plan was in its early stages, nor have they complained about the drone attacks on Pakistan to thwart it. You don't hear much mention of GITMO anymore now that Obama is the Warden in Chief of it. Global warming is off the back burner, in fact it isn't even in the kitchen anymore, it's out back in the alley with the rest of the trash. Funny how all it takes is a president that they like to change their perception of America even though in most important regards from their perspective it hasn't changed. And that president wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance in hell of being elected head of state in any of their countries had he been born there.
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"a French national died when a guard at an Austrian gas company near Sanaa opened fire" (BBC)
And mighty EU defense is going to do WHAT in a reaction?
Or there's not going to be ANY military reaction?
Or no reaction at all?
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#87. At 11:13am on 06 Oct 2010, MarcusAureliusII,
Totally boring and to spec for you, as for global warming, its removal to the back-burner is not because of Obama, who makes Bush look bright, but rather because many of the claims of the self centred scientists whose research grants depend on global warming have been discredited. The scandal in Norfolk (UK), and various other scientific findings have quietened the vested interests. As well as that the politicians of the EU, and who have made Green issues an excuse to further tax the population, have become universally detested throughout the EU and are in their bunkers for the moment.
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It is a mis-conception that the conservative party is against Europe. Its opposition comes from a healthy questionning of the dominance of Europe by the French and Germans.
Europe is a French concept, financed by the Germans.
The U.K. is correct in keeping its distance from the EU. It will serve all parties well in the forthcoming years.
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#87
Given how much grief Obama is getting from people like you,every time he says or does anything, upto and including assassination, and impeachment for failure to defend the US, I guess we thought we'd better leave off him for a while. He has enough problems on his plate trying to rescue a failed economy, broken infrastructure,and restoring your international reputation, which is out back with global warming and the rest of the trash.
As for Obama being elected at all - well I might have known the election of one black man in 234 years of history , who is mixed race and not of slave heritage, would have been enough to have you lord it over us. If you elect a non-white, non-northern european, middle class, ivy league, washington bubble white man next time, then i'll applaud. Who knows, you might even catch up with the rest of the civilised world and elect a woman.
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Auistrian Radio website recently reported reports from a number of sources including the online EU Observer that the "EU" is recruiting a chief for its spy service.
Because we did not get the referendum we were promised, the "EU" has no right to exist.
Because it has no right to exist, it has no right to have a spy service.
Megalomaniac supporters of the Greater European Reich might be hiding in their bunkers but they are no playing chess down there. They are continuing with their sick plotting against the rights of the people of Britain and Europe.
An what is David Cameron doing about it?
He appears not to be resisting it but appears to be going along with the "EU" sickness.
The "EU" has increased its budget. Has he stopped that? Er... NO!
There has been a report that government intends to share aircraft carriers with the French. It won't work!
Presumably the sharing of an aircraft carrier with the French is another example of Helmut Kohl's stated strategy of "a policy of small steps." Presumably the plan is that at some time in the future we will have the total integration of "EU"-armed forces, the excuse being that it is "only a tidying up exercise" as we are practically integrated already.
Conservatives need to show some backbone and get rid of Cameron.
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"EU" Armed Forces?
Remember Přemysl!
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EUprisoner209456731 #93.
"Remember Přemysl!"
remember what? the "mythical founder of the Bohemian royal dynasty" or one of the 13th century kings?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%99emysl
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#3 Justin150
--✄-- We have no common culture with Europe --✄--
#4 jr4412
--✄-- apart from speaking a Germanic language and being Anglo-Saxon --✄--
#11 Buzet23
--✄-- Which part of today's UK are you referring to --✄--
#14 jr4412
--✄-- English is a West Germanic language that arose in the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of England.." --✄--
#31 cool_brush_work
--✄-- Nevertheless, modern everyday usage of English is distinct from that of European languages: --✄--
I know for some of you it's to late to return to school and learn your own or another language but i will help you learn Greek talking only English
proof of the uniqueness of the Greek Language.
The speech of the Greek Prime Minister, Xenophon Zolotas , 2nd October 1959 Washington - International Bank for Reconstruction and Development
Kyrie
It is Zeus’ anathema on our epoch and the heresy of our economic method and policies that we should agonize the Skylla of nomismatic plethora and the Charybdis of economic anaemia.
It is not my idiosyncracy to be ironic or sarcastic but my diagnosis would be that politicians are rather cryptoplethorists. Although they emphatically stigmatize nomismatic plethora, they energize it through their tactics and practices. Our policies should be based more on economic and less on political criteria. Our gnomon has to be a metron between economic strategic and philanthropic scopes.
In an epoch characterized by monopolies, oligopolies, monopolistic antagonism and polymorphous inelasticities, our policies have to be more orthological, but this should not be metamorphosed into plethorophobia, which is endemic among academic economists.
Nomismatic symmetry should not antagonize economic acme. A greater harmonization between the practices of the economic and nomismatic archons is basic.
Parallel to this we have to synchronize and harmonize more and more our economic and nomismatic policies panethnically. These scopes are more practicable now, when the prognostics of the political end economic barometer are halcyonic.
The history of our didimus organization on this sphere has been didactic and their gnostic practices will always be a tonic to the polyonymous and idiomorphous ethnical economies. The genesis of the programmed organization will dynamize these policies.
Therefore, I sympathize, although not without criticism one or two themes with the apostles and the hierarchy of our organs in their zeal to program orthodox economic and nomismatic policies.
I apologize for having tyranized you with my Hellenic phraseology. In my epilogue I emphasize my eulogy to the philoxenous aytochtons of this cosmopolitan metropolis and my encomium to you Kyrie, the stenographers.
•∙∙∙∙∙∙∙►Thanks◄∙∙∙∙∙∙∙•
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Huaimek
Re #76 and Your "..UKIP and BNP.. in coalition government.."
Well, at least UKIP has a long established, clear anti-EU platform that argues for the full restoration of UK 'Home Rule': I.e. they have a minimal political credibility.
IMO, the BNP propounds gross socially intolerant, racially motivated, anti-democratic policies that are anathema to everything G.B. has stood for over many decades and are a despicable blot on the political landscape.
A Coalition including the former is just about conceivable as a minor influence on UK Political mainstream.
A Coalition including the latter would put the UK on a par with the likes of the Burma & North Korea dictatorships and signal the collapse of all the UK's remaining Political prestige across the entire World.
Have You taken leave of Your senses?
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#64 - quietoaktree
" . . a genius for (doing) something - special skill at doing something". (Longman's Dictonary).
A special skill - as in a special aptitude at using and understanding a language, perhaps. With your specialised knowledge, you will doubtless be able to explain what it has to do with nationalism.
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Ellinas 95
Brilliant, I've found the link and put it with my Favourites. However, I'm sure that certain people on this blog will carry on with the deeply held believe that Anglo Saxons speak a unique language, have a unique culture and nobody else in the world is as clever as them or made such a huge contribution to mankind. The Romans, Greeks, Phoenicians and all the ancients and our other Europeans forefathers on whose wisdom we build today are of no importance and that they alone sprang fully formed into life with all the wisdom they possess and no thanks to anyone before them. Some Americans here are just as bad. A more enlightened English friend of mine often says: "We mustn't forget there is only one letter between british and brutish." He was only half joking.
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#95. At 5:39pm on 06 Oct 2010, Ellinas,
#98. At 7:32pm on 06 Oct 2010, margaret howard
Simply pathetic, what a shame the two of you could not have met a German ex-colleague of mine who has a first in old English at Oxford, she would have taught you how lacking both of you are.
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#97 threenodio
Spoelling my conputerated diktionari
goves ´sceptic and skeptic´
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For your information ---
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/
Dinner is served.
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#97 threnodio
-- Indian genius,Pakistani genius, Burmese genius, Canadian genius, Danish genius, Belgian genius, Catholic genius, Protestant genius, Jewish genius, Moslem genius, Communist genius, Capitalist genius, Nazi genius, Anarchist genius etc. etc------
--- What was your point that I missed ?
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99 Buzet writs:
"Simply pathetic, what a shame the two of you could not have met a German ex-colleague of mine who has a first in old English at Oxford, she would have taught you how lacking both of you are."
Lacking in what? Could you explain?
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#103
Masculine hormonal stupidity ?
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#96 Cool_Brush_Work
I am a strictly first past the post supporter .
In the event of PR being introduced to British Government , then the door is opened to a wider choice , who may all have a seat in parliament . British people are more likely to vote in a general election as they do for the European parliament .
I am not in favour of the BNP being represented at Westminster , but did not 2 get elected to Brussels ? Wasn't the UKIP the second largest British party representation at Brussels ?
It is possible that PR could seriously undermine the political ambitions of the Libdems who seek it .
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#103. At 11:29pm on 06 Oct 2010, margaret howard,
"Lacking in what? Could you explain?",
So I even have to spell it out to you, the knowledge of the origins of the languages shown by both you and Ellinas is very poor and full of the usual preconceptions, misconceptions and inventions. As for you MH, your response to Ellinas's post reminded me of 'hook, line and sinker'.
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"If you [Americans] elect a non-white, non-northern european, middle class, ivy league, washington bubble white man next time, then i'll applaud.]
And I for one shall applaud when Britons elect as their premier (forget a monarch] a UK citizen of Muslim Pakistani origin.
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Ellinas #95.
nice.
margaret howard #98.
"A more enlightened English friend of mine often says: "We mustn't forget there is only one letter between british and brutish." He was only half joking."
having spent more than 25 years in the UK, sadly, I have to agree with your friend.
Buzet23 #99.
thumbs down!
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Ellinas re #95 & MHoward re #98
What 'school'?
The one that ascribes all modern day practises, views, experience to some obscure, ancient, nomenclatural origins ('genesis') - - well, my reading of contributions is nobody really disputes that: However, Your "..plethorophobia.." is largely in the mind as the dynamism of Human evolution has always necessitated reinvigoration/reinvention of the Sun-Dial Rod (gnomon) and that is not sententious (i.e. gnomic), but merely a common fact of life - - if it were not so then surely only dwarf-like (gnome) existence would ever have prevailed among Civilisations.
Margaret, did You really put that #95 in Your 'favourites'?
Poor lady: Have You so little confidence in Yourself as to suppose that concoction of inadvertent contradictions & misdirected chastisement for 'aphorisms' & 'moralising' had any import ahead of Your own lively mind?
You are far too easily led, Margaret; I'm afraid the (y)oke (see 1066, And all that), such as it is, is on You.
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jr4412
Re #108
Unsure what it is You are agreeing with: The clever & convenient use of the 'vowels' or that UK is different from France, Germany, Italy etc.?
Having spent more than 35 working years actively engaged across a good deal of the World I was always amazed at how common was 'common' Humanity in places as far apart as Leningrad (1972) & the Nevada Desert (1974) and from Tromso (1978) to Peking (1988), Buenos Aires (2002) & Sydney (2007).
There never was a place where some of the indigenous inhabitants were not exceedingly pleasant, a large number casually indifferent and a basic rotten few on display.
That said, the 2 most violent and only times I was ever in fear for my life were: Every day of 3 tours of N.Ireland (think the Irish felt the same about me!) and a stop-over in Milan Rail Station where a gunfight between police & hoodlums erupted infront of thousands of us - - it petered out to a draw with 2 or 3 down from each side!
My eldest daughter is a London Met Police Officer of many years experience and she always says, 'same people are different from day-to-day... it just depends on circumstance..'.
About the 'safest' place I ever walked very late at night was communist Leningrad: They had that city locked-down, or so it appeared, but returning in 1998 to St.Petersburg my Russian friends told me stories of behind-the-scenes 'black market' skullduggery involving Gangs & Police that reminded of London, Hamburg, New York etc.
Now, I live in deepest, isolated Finnish wilderness and the prospect of a bear or wolf whilst I pick mushrooms & berries is real; however, it is in immesnely civilised, traditionally safe Finland in the last 3 years 3 random, deadly shooting sprees by nutters with guns have occurred!
Go figure.
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#102 - quietoaktree
An alternative an equally valid meaning for the word 'genius'.
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cool_brush_work #110.
"Unsure what it is You are agreeing with: The clever & convenient use of the 'vowels' or that UK is different from France, Germany, Italy etc.?"
in some way both. the clever use of language simply because I enjoy wordplay for its own sake (and English is a fabulous vehicle for this), and that the UK is different from continental Europe (common roots notwithstanding).
one of the most depressing aspects of living in the UK (for me) is the utter lack of interest in speaking languages other than English; I grew up in the Rhine valley and speaking two or more languages is par for the course. hence, I suppose, my appreciating the 'brutish' -- as in revelling in one's lack of knowledge -- remark. (btw, only in the UK have I noticed people using 'smart arse' widely as an insult, but then, I haven't been to the US of A yet ;))
on the whole though I'd agree with you and your daughter: I can get along with most individuals (irrespective of their cultural background), but everyone can have a 'bad' day.
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#108
margaret howard #98.
"A more enlightened English friend of mine often says: "We mustn't forget there is only one letter between british and brutish." He was only half joking."
"having spent more than 25 years in the UK, sadly, I have to agree with your friend"
So, you've been here 25 years, Margaret has been in England 40 years. I guess both of you have been struck by a bout of self-flagellating masochism. There is a very simple cure, but i wager neither of you will be opting for it anytime soon.
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commonsense_expressway #113.
"So, you've been here 25 years ... struck by a bout of self-flagellating masochism."
yes, that is one way of describing family life. :-)
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#109 cool_brush_work
--✄--
dynamism of Human evolution has always necessitated reinvigoration/reinvention
--✄--
How about that today reinvention
[Methionylthreonylthreonylglutaminylarginyl...isoleucine] 189,819 Letters (experience to some obscure, ancient, nomenclatural giant protein)
In one name titin derived from the Greek Titan
Too long, too Greek and too modern for you...try that reinvigoration/reinvention instead
Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis
Now find me one single English word to that English word...Hmmm! maybe one i.e. the word it self as a whole...
Too Greek and Latin for you...try that instead
Pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism
...Poor ancient unusualness dwarf-like Greeks
Now let's play a game on how many Greek words you've found to #95 speech
Hmm! let me give you a tip more than 100 less than 200...have fun!
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Thank you, Ellinas,
That reminds me ...I need to get a pneumonia vaccine this year ..available free at most pharmacies....here :)))
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My definition of family values...oh so wise,
Who cares, why bother? Just do it the best you can :))
Some one once said organized religion is for non-adults.
Adults make up their own religions, i.e. their own rules of ethics/morality.
And then don't look back :O)))))
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oh excuse, me, I dont even know what y'all are chatting 'bout:) carry on, pls :)
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Ellinas,
Bronchitis?
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David
What about Bronchitis (inflammation of "bronkhos" = "βρόγχος" i.e. windpipe, throat)...?
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Re #115
Hello!
Knock, knock!
Anybody out there?
Well, anybody other than Ellinas with a fixation on antiquity's alleged thesaurus of messages to future generations which so far as I can tell was agreed by 'western' academia several centuries ago and remains true to this day!?
Of course the China and India sub-Continent inhabitants don't quite see it that way.
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#121 cool_brush_work
--✄-- Anybody out there? --✄--
I can't understand well you...It's all Greek to you!"
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#115. At 6:53pm on 07 Oct 2010, Ellinas,
Tintin is a Belgian cartoon character and nothing to do with English as the character first appeared in French and people here in Belgium love the character.
re Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis, try silicosis, this longest word was created in 1935 with no reason other than to create the longest word, how not very clever for you to try and infer some form of strange unknown subterfuge or link to Greek or whatever it was your words were supposed to mean, either that or please supply a translator from Ellias's gobbledegook to English.
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Re #122
Goodness, I really do feel sorry for that 'Professor' of Your's!
What a tiresomely self-indulgent pupil You must have been!
Quite what You imagine all this inconsequential, meandering achieves and what others reading it, take from it is I suspect a literal 'World of experience' apart.
Your fixation with all things Greek is not a tease: It is the 'taverna' tautology of an ill-bred child. Between You & Nik the damage done to the image of Greece is phenomenal!?
Ellinas, it is not that I or anyone else on here does not 'understand' You, believe me we understand You only too well: It is that You rarely make a contribution to any topic that could be considered as useful & productive.
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That is the thing about Greek words....at first glance ...pronounced the wrong way,
Then when heard it all makes sense and one is transfixed with the beauty produced. Lysistrata, Clitemestra? (sp) Oddyseus
There are one or two or three, I had to hear in order to pronounce -- course these are proper names...
But, yes those Greeks were quite wildly intelligent AND if you read the English translations of especially The Illiad, you are so pumped.
It made the Oddysey seem boring. I love tragedy BUT,
I'll take the movie "The Hunger" with Catherine Deneuve and Susan Sarandon as a modern dark piece of art anyday,
Its so 80s and European. I bet Marcus would love that movie.
Catherine says no its a love song.
Susan says but there are 2 women there. And Catherine says yes its two women,
And Susan says, Are you making a pass at me, Mrs. Blaylock...and then horror (first then, st8 man fantasy ensues, then the horror, the horror)
I was Stupified, Ellinas, you must see this oh so mind blowing movie.
"The Hunger" Also with David Bowie.
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Hey, the Peoples Republic of China got a Nobel Literature Prize today.
China's first ever Nobel of any sort.
And they are really p############ off by the whole thing!
Apparently it has something to do with the first Chinese Nobel prize-winner presently serving an 11 year sentence for writing a document asking for the right to speak & write freely as is guaranteed by the Chinese Constitution.
So, it would seem the Chinese Leadership aren't too hot on reading their own Literature on Government!
PS: IMMENSE CONGRATULATIONS TO NORWAY & the NOBEL COMMITTEE for not giving way to PRC political threats about the nominated Chinese Author.
PPS: Hope the winner doesn't get a kicking this evening for winning in absentia!
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David
Re #125
As practically all the evidence from Ellinas' contributions would seem to indicate he is under-age I think it unlikely he will see it for another 4 or 5 years at least!
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124 CBW writes:
"Ellinas, it is not that I or anyone else on here does not 'understand' You, believe me we understand You only too well: It is that You rarely make a contribution to any topic that could be considered as useful & productive."
Ellinas,I personally find your contributions most intelligent and interesting, compared to some of the whingers and naysayers who do nothing but attack other people, often in the most childish manner, and rarely contribute much of interest themselves.
As for CBW's claim in 121 : "Of course the China and India sub-Continent inhabitants don't quite see it that way." Any thoughtful person will know that western Europe owes its culture, origins of literature,architecture and general way of thinking to those two giants of the ancient world, Greece and Rome who laid the foundations of European civilisation while our own nordic forefathers were living in caves and painting their faces. And after the collapse of those civilisations we entered the dark ages and very nearly lost everything to a new barbaric age - we still burned witches and believed in devils a few hundred years ago!
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But, it IS fun to see the Chinese sputter, cuss, and have little power..at least against Norway.
In the Economist there will be hundreds of "nickel" posters (paid posters) angry and demanding apologies for the great insult to their nation.
It IS amazing to read these ignorant nice ignorant people reciting what they are told to recite..not seeming to have a thought in their probably great minds that were not forced upon them.
It's a trip. Go there and see the conformity and choir like (varied by word order only) I DiD like China until I read their wildly outraged comments. Of course it varies, one guy keeps saying the same thing "Its now G-2" "Hillary Clnton says Chinese/American is the most important relationship in the world"
He as probably changed his tune per the US economy of recent months.
His other pronouncements are "Economist says Chinese economy to reach 40 trillion soon"
Bless his heart as he may see very little of it. But, he believes--therefore he is allowed to live and comment..betcha money.
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Yes no witch remains in the US today or Europe but some women remain as the men had to let them live ...in order for future exploitation.
And to produce other men for future promotions,
Sorry to men, truth is truth is not viewpoint. There are truths in this world.
Universal values that are not allowed by some people because they are actually not liberal but are prejudiced (no offense to some) against Chinese and other dictator led nations....thinking its ok for them to be different and have different values because
Really they are not good enough for democracy unlike us "Western democracies"
Bigotry is often undetectable until tooo tooo late....we are all bigots and unaware of it...usually.
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#128. At 8:47pm on 08 Oct 2010, margaret howard,
"Ellinas,I personally find your contributions most intelligent and interesting, compared to some of the whingers and naysayers who do nothing but attack other people, often in the most childish manner, and rarely contribute much of interest themselves.",
Oh dear, hook line and sinker as always, but then we should excuse someone of such barbarian ancestry because you are female, over more that two thousand years you show that there are still people who justify the building of Hadrian's wall. I just feel sorry for your hubby who is of St George origin, poor guy.
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131 Buzet wrote:
"I just feel sorry for your hubby who is of St George origin, poor guy."
I think you must have misread some of my earlier posts. According to historical sources St George came from Cappadocia in modern day Turkey and was a purveyor of bacon products for the Roman army. My husband is none of those things.
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#132. At 10:45pm on 08 Oct 2010, margaret howard,
As in all things your knowledge and sources are inadequate, there are many claims of where St George came from and the most likely was that he did not exist. The dragon was a device used by Catholicism to describe what they called the devil, heretics, disbelievers etc. Consequently you have the legend of St George across most of Europe.
PS. How could he have been a Saint before the existence of the Christian church, eh, er, oops?
Now go back to your dreams and sleep tight, after all the USA have been sending bed bugs over to the UK recently, lol.
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133 Buzet writes:
"..there are many claims of where St George came from and the most likely was that he did not exist..How could he have been a Saint before the existence of the Christian church, eh, er, oops?
That would explain why England chose him as her patron saint - no saint and non-existent!
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#123 Buzet23
Tintin is a Belgian cartoon character...? Of course it is! So let's don't mix a so beloved Belgian character with the titin giant protein
--✄-- this longest word was created in 1935 with no reason other than to create the longest word --✄--
a) Pneumono : from the Greek πνεῦμα = "a blowing" --> πνεύμων = "lung"
b) ultra: from the Latin Uls beyond i.e. on the further side
c) microscopic: from the Greek: μικρός, mikrós, "small" and σκοπεῖν, skopeîn, "to look" or "see"
d) silico: latin silex, silicis i.e. stone
e) volcano: Roman trasportation of the Greek god of fire Hephaestus. Used here as to describe inflammation
f) coniosis: from the Greek: κόνις = "Dust" i.e. a diseased state due to inhalation of dust.
so in one word Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis,
...is a lung disease caused by the inhalation of very fine silica dust, causing inflammation in the lungs
You see Buzet23 and Cbw...A concept is always a modern concept (even if happend at 1935) since today nothing else is created above that last one or reinvented.
BTW Buzet23 after the above explanation do you really think that scientists, name things just for fun and with no reason and if so why do that by using the Greek language instead?
I will tell you why because...in its power of nominal combination
no other language has equaled the Greek. There was practically no limit to the ability of a Greek author to form compound nouns, expressing the most complex ideas. The striking off of case-endings and the juxtaposition of radicals was a process so easy and natural as to suggest itself in the ordinary flow of speech, and the laws of the language were so tolerant of growth as to put no restriction on either the poetic imagination ,or the necessity of philosophy.
like the Greek word:
Lopadotemachoselachogaleokranioleipsanodrimhypotrimmatosilphioparaomelitokatakechymenokichlepikossyphophattoperisteralektryonoptekephalliokigklopeleiolagoiosiraiobaphetraganopterygon
a fictional fricassée dish with at least 16 sweet and sour ingredients mentioned in Aristophanes comedy Assemblywomen.
The adjective was specially full and rich in its expressiveness. Each word of this class was capable of one hundred and thirty-five -endings!
But it was the Greek verb which most of all exhibited the fecundity of the language. Here was revealed the great force and perspicuity of the speech of the Hellenes. A double series of affixes, added or prefixed to the verb-roots, clearly distinguished the tenses as to the time and completeness of the action expressed by them. The root of a Greek verb was thus subject to a kind of development by means of endings and prefixes until the exact notion of the time, its point and duration, and the completeness of the action, was expressed with a specific delicacy of which no other language has ever shown itself susceptible. There was thus established among all the parts of the formal structure of the Greek tongue a kind of sympathetic union which moved the whole as one.
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#125 David
--✄-- That is the thing about Greek words....at first glance ...pronounced the wrong way, Then when heard it all makes sense and one is transfixed with the beauty produced. --✄--
#128 margaret howard
--✄-- Any thoughtful person will know that western Europe owes its culture, origins of literature,architecture and general way of thinking to those two giants of the ancient world, Greece and Rome who laid the foundations of European civilisation while our own nordic forefathers were living in caves and painting their faces. --✄--
margaret howard and David you know well that it wasn't my intention to demonstrate how giant the Greek culture is (that is an easy fact) nor which culture is better (No matter how ugly a baby can be, he always looks beautiful to his mom) but why Europe and America (from north to south) has common roots.
By doing that I will borrow the words of enlightenment US professors and their consideration about Greek language in the English world.
The Greek language, with its multitudinous endings, all in harmonious accord, lay like a rich meadow of stately timothy swaying and waving in the breezes of thought. Each stalk nodded to his fellow.
The ripple of mirth danced over the surface like a scarcely perceptible breath of air. The shadow chased the sunshine, and the sunshine the shadow. A sigh came out of the forest and a deeper wave moved gently away to the distance. The thrill of joy, the message of defiance, the moan of the disconsolate spirit, the paean of battle, the shout of victory, every mood and every emotion which the mind of man in his most
vigorous estate is capable of experiencing, swept in rolling billows across the pulsating bosom of this beautiful speech.
The tongue of the Greeks was, in its kind, as preeminent as their literature. The one was the counterpart of the other. So wonderful in its completeness is the grammatical structure of the language that it has been made, not without good reason, the foundation of linguistic study in nearly all the universities of the world.
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Ellinas,
You are blessed and you must enjoy. M Howard I do not ever think of you or cbw or Ellinas or others as bigoted..do not worry:)))
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Its a wonder. We can only look in awe at the sublime, Ellinas.
I like CS Lewis, a great English "Apologist" for the Anglican Church.
In my first College-unaffordable and so difficult-I had a stroke from the stress--and high BP--at age 35.
But, I did have to read CS Lewis and learn the difference between "sublime" and um... "cool."
Westminster Abby and the Parthenon, for instance, are sublime (also Niagara Falls) to us, while songs are cool. He was explaining this important difference--that most of "you's" know already.
Of course Lewis may have meant nature as opposed to man made things:)))
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Remember, once, a Greek person of note, said,
"America is in its long decline but may be remembered as Greece is remembered"...probably also *as is the UK nee Great Britain will be/is remembered..because most of Our culture came from her.
Some things are academic, but ultimately irreversible, in fact, nonetheless.
Even ..we--individuals--shall be remembered ..for ??? ..I hope, but do not speculate.
I shall be remembered, probably, as "spacy"..lol.
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#127 cool_brush_work
--✄-- As practically all the evidence from Ellinas' contributions would seem to indicate he is under-age --✄--
#126 cool_brush_work
--✄-- Hey, the Peoples Republic of China got a Nobel Literature Prize today. China's first ever Nobel of any sort. --✄--
Imprisoned Chinese democracy campaigner Liu Xiaobo on Friday won the Nobel Peace Prize
Peruvian author Mario Vargas Llosa, one of the most acclaimed South American writers, is the one that won the Nobel Prize for Literature
You are so in a hurry and aware for telling something so at the end you say nothing...I've told you are too old (do you remember Slovakia case) to see the difference between Nobel Prize for Literature and the Nobel Peace Prize...fix your cataract (Greek kataraktes from katarassein meaning "to dash down" i.e. "waterfall")...
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#139 David
--✄-- Some things are academic, but ultimately irreversible --✄--
True! We are all sons of the entropy mother law
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#134. At 11:31pm on 08 Oct 2010, margaret howard,
Wrong again, he was probably adopted as a symbol whilst the English fought and restrained the ungodly heathens and barbarians the other side of Hadrian's wall, therefore to the English you Scots were the dragon to be subjugated! Maybe in our case George was a famous warrior of the time rather than the St George for which there is no definitive proof as to where or if he existed.
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Re #140
Thanks for the 'correction'.
It was exactly as You say, 'a hurry' & 'age': Hurried because our Sauna was ready & aging as it was my turn to be first into the lake and in the dark with only a small light I always leave time to find my way!
You should try it: Leave Yourself time & find light - - to grow up - - time to know what You now think of as so clever about Yourself is in 10 years an embarrassment and You'll hope family & friends do not shine too great a light on Your past indiscretions.
Cheers.
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#135. At 02:08am on 09 Oct 2010, Ellinas,
What utter drivel, you analyse an invented word that was created simply to be the longest word in the English dictionary, and since the words used were of Greek origin and therefore long and windy you draw pleasure from that, how strange and sad you are. The combining of words happens in many languages and I recall that particular technique especially in German where I initially was confused (not for long) by some menu items that were not in the dictionary. In French they use long windy sentences that could be reduced to just a few precise words if they so wished, but they don't. English by comparison has the largest dictionary in the world but a large part is never used since we prefer to keep sentences short, simple and to the point. This is a technique you evidently have never learnt.
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MHoward
Re #128
Margaret, at no time on this Blog have I ever argued other than the original debt owed to antiquity.
Again, I suggest: You cannot have read my #31 properly. It agrees with the links to the ancient World.
E.g. ".. the English language did emerge from a variety of mainland in-puts..", plus, "...most parts of British/English culture can trace roots in Roman, Viking, Norman etc. plus the various impacts of Faiths.."
Ellinas appears under the same illusion about #31: His excuse is youthful exuberance, what is Yours?
Do neither of You actually read content, but just assume on the basis of the contributor!?
Mind You, in Your #128, not only do You misread my #124 comment to Ellinas, but You proceed with another factually confused History that bears limited relation to reality.
In Your pop-pickers' History You neglect to mention there have been a British Isles for about 5,000 years whereas Greece & the whole Aegean-Mediterranean-Peloponnesian land mass had already been geographically secure from the last Ice Age for 5 to 7,000 years: Human evolution & development of civilised communities had long since stemmed from the Middle East. It is climate & geology that made conditions most suited to the emergence of Troy (circa-BC2870) and later the great City States such as Athens & Sparta (circa-BC600)
Ellinas is justly proud of that eminent growth of civilised lifestyle: However, it is little to do with the innate sensitivites of a specific ancient peoples, but a whole lot to do with their exploitation of an advantageous situation. In the same manner as the earlier Egyptian civilisation (circa-BC2700) resulted from peoples exploitation of the annual Nile floods.
Even so, long prior to that superb evolution of the Greek epoch Your British ancestor on whom You so disparagingly comment had created Stonehenge (circa-BC 1900).
Whilst it is indeed no Parthenon or Coliseum if You were aware of archaeology You would know the magnificent Greek & Roman building era followed on-the-site of former structures not too disimilar from that in the British Isles. It is just that different stages of Human development can also be interrupted by events (see late: South America, India..).
Until the advent of the post-Industrial Technology it seems Human instinct & the spread of ideas comes very much at the pace of what the prevailing earthly conditions allow: Thus circa-BC1005 David & Solomon are having a Temple constructed that causes difficulties to this day whereas Greece only got to that point about 600 to 500 years Before Christ. So Greece had indeed pulled ahead of Britain, France, Scandinavia, but only significantly later evolving along the same pattern as portions of India & China. In the meantime the whole Americas & African continents still in a state of flux with some Human structures plus scientific & philosophy in places as far apart as Benin, Zimbabwhe, Mexico & Peru exceeding the grand designs & ambitions of the Mediterranean civilisations.
Of course, it is not by some peculiarly adept & ingenious Peoples' design, but principally by the accident of geography & climatology the Greco-Roman model prevailed across most of Europe. The great 16th-17th century Age of Exploration when Europe spread its tentacles Worldwide & brought back elements of other civilisations is a clear example (for good & ill - - though You only seem to apportion the misery-outlook) of that 'interruption' to Human development.
Thus I stand entirely by my original point made in #31:
"..Justin150 at #3 has a valid point.."
And,
IMO, "..the cultural linkage between the British Isles and Continental Europe is at best an indeterminate phenomena..".
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
144 buzet writes:
"English by comparison has the largest dictionary in the world but a large part is never used since we prefer to keep sentences short, simple and to the point."
And the average Englishman never uses more than 800 words of them. Where did it all go wrong? The language of Shakespeare and all they do these days is grunt and use the f-word.
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#144 Buzet23
--✄-- English by comparison has the largest dictionary in the world but a large part is never used since we prefer to keep sentences short, simple and to the point --✄--
#145 cool_brush_work
I'll take Buzet23 assist and keeping it "British short" and to the point i youthfully say:
...hopeless melting pot nonsense at one single post...sauna dehydration effect
BTW if you standing entirely to your original point made in #31 then GOTO my post #95.
So we have a LOOP and this blog argument can be reduced in a simple c/c++
language code program :)))))
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MHoward
Re #147
The 'language of Shakespere' was very 'common' for its time & most Royal Courtiers were titillated by the Bard's use of the vernacular.
Meanwhile, hoi-polloi used the 'f' word at every opportunity.
It didn't 'go wrong', it just changed syntax & spelling - - a situation found in every European nation inc. Greece - - they all have their own version of the 'f' word & it can heard in 27EU languages everyday.
Margaret, as a sop to our Aegean word-obsessor: Did You know in Greek 'Hoi' means 'the'? So, to speak of 'the hoi-polloi' is to in English say 'the the-polloi', i.e. it's repetitious!
Yeah, I know, fascinating as the white paint drying on the wall, but come on Ellinas is probably dancing in excitement.
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Ellinas
Re #148
Unfortunately for You the vast preponderance of Historians, Archaeologists, & indeed Anthrapologists have consistently written tomes describing much as I did in short-hand at #145.
Greece is a fine country, with a great ancient history and some remarkable contributions to the culture of the World: But, founder of civilisation it never was and dominating culture it never has been. I'm afraid, sadly much of Your bubble of pride in its national antiquity is illusory, not because any of us want to deny Greece's prominence, but because its position is typical of several 'proto-nations' of the BC centuries.
That was not a "..melting pot.." History: Hard as it may be for You to take, that #145 was a mainstream view expounded in University lecture halls across the World.
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145 CBW
Much as I appreciate your effort here and at *31, I'm afraid we did this sort of cod history when I was about 12 years old at grammar school.As for your claim to Ellinas in 150 "Unfortunately for You the vast preponderance of Historians, Archaeologists, & indeed Anthrapologists have consistently written tomes describing much as I did in short-hand at #145."
Are you really aware how foolish this statement sounds? You have reduced years of study by experts in their field with the feeble 'shorthand' you offer in *145? I would advise you to get those 'tomes' out again before you make a complete ass of yourself.
Just one more thing - you say that you agree with
"..Justin150 at #3 has a valid point.."
And,
IMO, "..the cultural linkage between the British Isles and Continental Europe is at best an indeterminate phenomena..".
Which proves my point that you should really deepen your study of history in the future and no doubt those long winter evenings in the deepest wilds of Finland should be ideally suitable to such an effort. You have asked me before why I live in England when I find so much wrong with it. Well I ask you how can you live in Finland of all places when you feel you have no proper cultural connection with the Continent?
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#147. At 3:14pm on 09 Oct 2010, margaret howard
I'm wondering which Grammar school you attended and if it was in that hard left paradise of Scotland as certainly in London my Grammar school survived until ILEA got hijacked by the loony left who closed it down so that the masses could be educated in a comprehensive. Which is why people such as red Ken can only grunt. However these days in inner cities you are right in that I have problems understanding the language, but then its hard to find an Englishman as there are so many Scots in England.
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#148. At 5:12pm on 09 Oct 2010, Ellinas
parsing error - repetitive and/or unnecessary code and/or unknown keywords, simplify!
This is the sort of help message I would suggest to you as I've programmed in more computer languages than you for certain.
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#153 Buzet23
--✄-- parsing error - repetitive and/or unnecessary code and/or unknown keywords, simplify! --✄--
parse errors are of the type when the compiler encounters unexpected input, i.e. sequences of characters which do not follow the syntax of the language. The error messages can be triggered by a missing close bracket, brace or semicolon preceding the line of the error, or an invalid keyword not certainly for unknown keywords or for errors telling you about repetitive and/or unnecessary code and/or unknown keywords, simplify!...
...but i suppose you meant Stack Overflow or some kind of Recursion Out of Memory Error...otherwise I must tell you...you have an excellent homer Simpson Compiler, Linker and Run-Time computer program
--✄-- I've programmed in more computer languages than you for certain --✄--
No way how can be so sure about that? and if so after all who cares
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Ellinas #154.
"--✄-- I've programmed in more computer languages than you for certain --✄--
No way how can be so sure about that? and if so after all who cares"
:-)
in Buzet23's case (I suspect) it's "PEBCAK" -- Problem Exists between Chair And Keyboard.
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#154. At 00:12am on 10 Oct 2010, Ellinas
"parse errors are of the type when the compiler encounters unexpected input"
Exactly, that was precisely what I meant when referring to your style of post.
#155. At 00:47am on 10 Oct 2010, jr4412
In your case please tell us how you manage to find the chair, let alone the keyboard.
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MHoward
Re #151
"..a complete ass of yourself.."
Hmm, that from the ninny afraid to leave her home at night!
Please, whilst safely tucked-up don't You think You should have done some reading beyond the Blyton stage?
Nothing in my #31 or in my #145 is in the least controversial: Greece is one of the pre-eminent Nations of antiquity and brought many ideas & some knowledge into the World. It was the seminal influence on 'west' European BC culture, but this idea it is the centre of the creation of the civilised World is no longer accepted as all-encompassing.
The History of Europe BC & post-BC and emergence of its 'culture' has far more to it than a naively Greco-Roman basis: European heritage also owes much to Slavic-Asiatic-Germanic-N.African in-put, not forgetting the post-BC influx of a 3rd Faith, i.e. Islam.
Some examples:
Mathematics only got going when the Indians developed the concept of '0' (zero).
The reason they write 'Indo-European' Languages is because of the sub-Continents influence.
The expansion of the Mediterranean hegemony Before Christ is down to the North African Phoenician-Carthaginian, Hellenic-Greek States & Italo-Roman Empire and the hostility of Greece & Rome to Carthage is reflected in their 'histories' (see below: the 'victors').
The term Judao-Christian inheritance is applied because of those 2 Faiths influence not because of some mythical beings on Mount Olympus.
It is worth noting the 'Classical' period of Greek History, i.e. 600 to 300BC is so well documented because it is the first to be written-up in detail at the time.
Margaret, it is the History You & I read & were entirely correctly taught about in school. It still stands today - - again, my #31 said as much - - but, my being English, meant Your predisposition to dislike anything I write again got in Your way.
However, in the last 50 years the study of 'Pre-History' has made enormous progress - - Greece has a unique place in the annals of Europe- - but no longer is Greece alone as it is clear from the Americas to Asia & Africa evolutions of Human activity had also been undertaken on a par with Greece.
Margaret, take Your own advice, only don't have another look at those 'tomes', but buy some of the more recent ones: Modesty forbids me suggesting titles (& anyway You'd dismiss anything I wrote out-of-hand) and it is more exciting to find Your own.
Antiquity/Archaic History is not what it once was: The knowledge & understanding of BC History moved on some time ago from this straight-line Greeks invented the modern world.
I don't quite understand how You came to write #151 except from that tiresome vitriolic stance of backing anyone on anything so long as they are 'agin' the English!?
I don't recall asking 'why' You live in England: Though I'm sure its for the perfectly valid reason it is a fine place to reside & raise a family.
What is this drivel about my not "..connecting.." with the Continent? As I have explained before with Dutch-German Grandparents, Belge-English parents, Polish Godparents, a Finnish wife, 1 daughter partnered with a Scot (well, there's always 1 black sheep in a family) & the other in Australia with a London-Irish (make that 2!) I have more contacts/relations/involvement with Britain & Europe than I wager most on these Blogs.
Margaret, 'History' is an ever changing concept with as You've alluded a number of times 'victors' often writing the version that emerges: So, try to keep it in an open-mind when considering the Greek & Roman 'historical' record as opposed to the charming but over-simplistic Famous Five 'what-they-did-next' method of assessing a good story.
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Buzet23 #156.
"In your case please tell us how you manage to find the chair, let alone the keyboard."
guide-dog? ;)
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#157 cool_brush_work
In a previous blog topic they had an argument about which was the first computer invention and if it was British or US but none ever mention the Antikythera mechanism as the most ancient mechanical computer designed to calculate astronomical positions
...not even me. You know why i didn't do it? Because there is no evidence that this mechanism was at the base of the other earlier inventions but that's not the case of Aristotle just to mention one among the Greeks who studies form, at a major percentage, our today Western civilization.
So!...If you so need to compare Greece with other cultures in order to make silly conclusions about western civilization, for your information one Greek is enough.
Aristotle against the other European and non European civilizations.
Last but not least...the mathematics only got going when the Indians developed the concept of '0' (zero)?...i still laughing. You are so amusing. Poor Pythagoras, considering the world a rational number and discovering after that irrational numbers...poor Heron of Alexandria considering the volume of an impossible frustum of a pyramid having by so observed imaginary numbers...poor Euclid devoting one book of the Elements to the theory of primes (Prime numbers) and serving as the main textbook (Euclid's Elements) for teaching mathematics (especially geometry) from the time of its publication until the late 19th or early 20th century...poor Zenon for your paradoxes that gave birth to limits, Differential calculus, integrals and infinitesimal theory...poor Epimenides for suggesting the example of the liar's paradox that gave birth to the major today mathematical theorem the Gödel's incompleteness theorems...and so infinitely on...
As for the Judao-Christian inheritance in correlation to Greek civilization go here and read popes lecture.
post #20 LECTURE OF THE POPE
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#158. At 10:05pm on 10 Oct 2010, jr4412,
Clever dog, but then guide dogs are very clever, you should let it take your place on this blog.
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#159. At 00:28am on 11 Oct 2010, Ellinas,
I don't know which of you and MAII, both of you think your respective countries invented everything.
As for the discussion on the origin computers it may have escaped your limited knowledge of English but we were discussing Electronic computers and not mechanical.
Did an ancient Greek somehow transcend centuries and invent an electronic computer, were ancient Greeks visited by aliens or were they aliens. Was the Antikythera mechanism a gift by a benevolent alien spaceman as it was seemingly constructed to place the locations of the stars. Maybe Archimedes was in fact an alien trying to educate the local natives (the Greeks). It's strange though that only one example of this mechanism has survived and that it's in a very bad state with many parts missing, maybe the alien only gave them one example to copy and they couldn't, eh?
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Re #159
Ellinas' Recipe for the World cake-mix:
Take 1 'Antikythera, 1 Aristotle, 1 Pythagorus, 1 Zenon, 1 Archimedes and a Pope's pronouncement...
Mix well, with large amounts of randomised assumptions, unconnected suppositions, highly debatable conclusions...
and, hey presto...
There is the Modern World.
Chef de cuisine: Ancient Greeks of varying eras who left the World cake mix baking for 2,000 years because no other contributors or ingredients were needed.
Think Hellenic pride was too long in the oven!
"...Indians developed the concept of 0 (zero)... i still laughing.."
Let us take India's contribution to Mathematics: It was Indian Mathematicians who were first to use 'Decimal' & 'Binary' Number systems, they developed the first rules of 'Algebra', the first theories & practical appplication of 'Trigonometry' inc. 'Sine' & 'Cosine'.
In the Indian Vedic Period from 1200 to 900BC Indian Mathematicians were using in their Math figures 'Thousands, Billions & Trillions' in their Calculations. Around 800 to 600BC Indians perfected the Rules for Geometric Construction.
Any examination of India's ancient/antiquity structures reveals they were erected before the zenith of Greek civilisation.
It may have been in Sanskrit, but the Indian RigVeda of sacred texts composed during 1700 - 1100 BC is amongst the oldest Indo-European text - - it comes from an era when parts of India were 'Trading' with Phoenicia, Egypt & Babylonia (1500BC). Some 200 to 300 Years before the siege of Troy, 600 years before Carthage was founded, 800 years before the first Olympiad, 900 years ahead of Homeric saga...
We must give a nod of acknowledgement to the proto-Iranian Mathematical & Linguistic influences (circa 2200-1600BC) that recent studies indicate also contributed to the Indo-European basket of knowledge.
Those brilliant Hellenes inherited, incorporated, developed the Rules, Systems & Theories that principally came from the Indian sub-Continent: The undisputed (by me or anyone sensible) genius of the Greek scholars of antiquity was through their Learning & Studies they were able to enhance those concepts which then spread via the later Italo-Roman era across Europe & North Africa.
Greece played a significant part, but the days are long gone when modern civilisation was attributed solely to the influence of the Hellenes.
To put it another way the Greek Era of Genius is one of several 'layers' of cake, it wasn't the first nor the last: Without Greece the cake falls flat, but then the same can be said for other layers prior to it and placed after it.
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#161 Buzet23
A computer is a programmable machine that receives input, stores and manipulates data, and provides output in a useful format.
If it is mechanical or electronic or hydraulic is another story. You wanted to concentrate more to the electronic point of view story? Good for you...that's why i haven't intervene to that pointless discussion (which was a matter of 5 to 10 years difference/divergence from one civilization to another and mostly a worldwide science contribution success). I mostly concentrate to the computer point of view...enjoy
ancient astronomical calculator, built around the end of the second century
#162 cool_brush_work
--✄-- Ellinas' Recipe for the World cake-mix: --✄--
To what recipe you are referring too? I gave you only one ingredient
As i said earlier...If you so need to compare Greece with other cultures in order to make silly conclusions about western civilization, for your information ONE Greek is enough.
So one ingredient is more than enough...
ARISTOTLE against the other European and non European civilizations at that time...added all together
--✄-- randomised assumptions, unconnected suppositions, highly debatable conclusions... --✄--
As for the rest i've told you need to go back to school but i'm afraid it's too late for you...
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Let see what BBC writes about this Ancient Moon 'computer'
Ancient Moon 'computer' revisited
BTW i said about mechanical computers now see some fixed-program hydraulic computers by Greek heron of Alexandria
History Channel - Ancient Discoveries: Machines of the Gods part 1
History Channel - Ancient Discoveries: Machines of the Gods part 2
History Channel - Ancient Discoveries: Machines of the Gods part 3
History Channel - Ancient Discoveries: Machines of the Gods part 4
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Re #163
Oh dear, the inconvenient, annoying, factual account of antiquity's many facets got too much for You.
Never mind: Rest in the knowledge Greece has a marvellous History and contibuted enormously to the World at large - - only You & the mad greek obsess on its central role to the entire progress of the World - - 'school' is a lovely idea and if I could I would return, but unlike You, chief among things I would 'respect' knowledge for its own sake.
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Re #159, 163, 164
Anything that shifts numbers is in a literal sense a form of 'computer'.
Thus, the 'Abacus' was a form of computer: It didn't get people to the moon or set-up the navigation aid in my car either!
As for, 'Machines of the Gods'? Greco-phile extraordinary You may be, but surely Ellinas, even You can comprehend the 'message'/'knowledge' bound up in the Title of the series!?
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#166 cool_brush_work
Anything that shifts numbers is in a literal sense a form of 'computer'? An Abacus for instance?
An abacus can't perform any predetermined numerical operations and output on its own (Something that Antikythera Mechanism as fixed-program mechanic computer or the Heron fixed-program hydraulic computers could do at that time). The calculations were performed mentally by the person using the abacus, and such device was only used for recording separate steps and keeping track of figures.
Of course abacus (like a ruler or line gauge) its a calculator not a computer.
In one sentence...The fundamental difference between a calculator and computer is that a computer can be programmed...
in more words programmed to solve computational problems in the area of complex dynamical systems, multi-scale phenomena, where systems are studied over large temporal and spatial scales, and the mapping of complex systems onto high performance parallel and distributed computing systems).
I've told you you need to go back to school again
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Ellinas #167.
"In one sentence...The fundamental difference between a calculator and computer is that a computer can be programmed..."
traditionally though, computer referred to the person performing the calculations.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0169180#m_en_gb0169180
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164 Ellinas
Thank you for those 4 links. I have watched one and shall look at the others later. Fascinating stuff.
However, I feel you are wasting valuable time in arguing with CBW as he is a man who believes the ancient British by building Stonehenge actually created the prototype for the Parthenon and all the other ancient buildings in the world. Here is what he said earlier in case he claims that I misquote him on purpose:
"Even so, long prior to that superb evolution of the Greek epoch Your British ancestor on whom You so disparagingly comment had created Stonehenge (circa-BC 1900). Whilst it is indeed no Parthenon or Coliseum if You were aware of archaeology You would know the magnificent Greek & Roman building era followed on-the-site of former structures not too disimilar from that in the British Isles." Pity that the ancient British never got around to building a Parthenon on top of it!
In 157 he gives me another lecture in his understanding of history and when he goes on to say: "Margaret, take Your own advice, only don't have another look at those 'tomes', but buy some of the more recent ones: Modesty forbids me suggesting titles.." I suspect that he doesn't know any. However I think democrathythreat says it much better than I ever can when he writes (and I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him):
"I mean, look at poor CBW. He's trying so desperately to make the shapes wot speak that he has lost whatever capacity he might ever have possessed for human dignity. He's a mess. He is braying and snorting like a broke leg donkey stuck halfway down an abandoned well.
Is that nice? Is that decent? Nobody wants to see that, it's cruel and nasty, but this is how it goes when folks who should be listening and reading take to talking and writing.I've tried to help him, goodness knows. I've done my best by dear CBW and this blog. I tried.
Now I've become jaded, and feel myself giving up on him as a completely lost cause. And yet somehow, that is not going to stop him posting so frequently, and with such negligible substance to his content.
At times like this you have to ask "Is there a god?" And if so, why does he hate the English so? Why does he mock them? What divine cruelty could cause an architect of life to put out their brains and yet leave their mouths? Is the plan to torment the rest of us for what the Israelites did to his son? Why does he not shut up?"
Priceless!
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#168 jr4412
Thanks (｡◕‿◕｡) excellent point
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#169 margaret howard
...you made me so laugh
but keep in mind that: it's not between me CBW and his Buzet spouse. It's only that i choose a longest path...an indirectly way to talk to you Margaret.
...BTW don't take that last thought too serious...of course i'm jocking
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#163. At 3:51pm on 11 Oct 2010, Ellinas
How much more do we have to educate you, your mechanical machines cannot store data as they have no memory, therefore they cannot manipulate data that has already been entered as you can't enter data in the first place, there are no variables, there are no registers, there is no capability for boolean logic, there is no arithmetic ability. They are simply no different to an advanced clock working on gears, cogs, springs, etc, just as the German enigma machine.
Got it now!
As for #169 and #171 just remember who wears a certain piece of clothing that most certainly I and most others here don't. The pair of you deserve each other, two fantasists who make authors like Von Daniken look like a genuine historical expert.
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#172 Buzet23
If you think of a computer as something that has a keyboard and a screen it's only your personal limit not mine.
Your mind stopped or can't go further than to electronic computers or may i better say to electronic? You find so hard to understand my #163 recommendation and #167 explanation? You want something that has registers, capability for boolean logic,and arithmetic ability? Fine! I will take the same bus ticket as you...so...
You take 4 J-K flip-flops (used for digital data storage and transfer and are commonly used in banks called "registers" for the storage of binary numerical data) and by taking the output of one cell to the clock input of the next finally a binary counter can be constructed. Then by terminating the "ripple-through" counting when the count reaches decimal 9. Since the next toggle would set the two most significant bits, a NAND gate tied from those two outputs to the asynchronous clear line will start the count over after 9 so you obtain a BCD counter. So a cascade of six asynchronous, falling-edge triggered BCD counters with a simple trick to reset the counters at the corresponding times...
...and there you have a simple digital clock that can display hours, minutes and seconds.
...but wait a striking mechanical clock full of gears, cogs, springs can do the job EXACTLY like the above digital clock full of registers, boolean logic and arithmetic ability...
Hmm! So Buzet! A digital clock is a computer but a striking clock no? So strange.
...last but not least if you put the digital clock under the hot sun or rain...very soon takes the trip to the twilight zone while the striking mechanical clock will go on with his tic toc.
So you see that Electronic devices (registers or else known storing data logic or memory, capability for boolean logic, arithmetic ability) is a SUFFICIENT condition in order to have computing but not a NECESSARY condition (e.g. the striking clocks) for obtaining the exactly same computing
So my advice to CBW for a quick return to school is prolonged to you either.
...and of course with mechanical and hydraulic machines you can store data, obtain memory, manipulate data that has already been entered, create mechanical and hydraulic registers, capability for boolean logic, and arithmetic ability.
e.g. when Heron designed a machine that a man by opening doors put in motion a mechanism that pours water into a bucket and wait for him to put a coin to the strange bucket in order to give him a glass of water that first action is storing data (water) i.e. memory and therefore they can of course those data (water) get manipulated by a coin (give a certain amount of water to that man). See history channel video links at my #164 post
So..What did you said?
--✄-- How much more do we have to educate you, your mechanical machines cannot store data as they have no memory, therefore they cannot manipulate data that has already been entered as you can't enter data in the first place --✄--
As you saw above, Heron, entered data in the first place --> stored those data by creating a water register --> and manipulated them at the end...
...do you still believe on that nonsense you said?
BTW Buzet the Antikythera Mechanism operates as a complex mechanical "computer" which tracks the cycles of the Solar and it's so designed to reconcile the lengths of the lunar month with the solar year and the Olympiads. In other words constructing an artificial mathematical calendar that keeps in synchronization with both the sun and the moon fool of gear controllers and feedbacks mechanisms...
...it's everything except an advanced clock
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Re #173
My sympathy for Your 'Professors' now extends to everyone that is obliged to share any time with You.
The extreme tediousness & utter futility of Your contributions knows no bounds!
Must go... there's a Sun Dial to watch... the excitement mounts...
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MHoward
Re #169
Glad You found that "..priceless..".
Now Margaret, if we had put Your name in the frame for that piece of discourteous, overly-aggressive & inappropriate comment would You be complaining of being 'bullied'?
I just wonder because it seems to me 'priceless' You find any Comment critical of the content of Your own or Your Scottish roots to be a threat, but are perfectly willing to back a diatribe of bile so long as it is against an Englishman.
Okay, I understand the basic oppressed-mentality that enjoys such stuff: Suffice to say, what little credibility You had has IMO fallen still lower.
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MHoward
Re #169
On the other point: Thanks for the Quote from my #
However, typically, You failed to read it properly! This has to be a fundamental flaw for You & I would urge You to address it ias it does make some of Your contributions seem very foolish.
Clearly, for those who can read, and indeed anyone who bothers to refer to archaeological studies, my quote refers to the fact that:
1) on the site of the Greek Parthenon & the Italian Coliseum previous generations of Hellenic & Italian peoples had built/erected sites
And that,
2) they were meaningful to them & had connotations of 'worship' and/or 'social gatherings' similar in aspect to the Stonehenge site.
That You would absurdly & deliberately choose to misinterpret a Quote You chose Yourself just sums up Your intellectual capacity!
There is no "..pity.." that the ancient Britons did not get around to building anything like a Parthenon: For reasons well documented (err, that would require You to read something other than an anti-English diatribe) the Britons never got to that stage.
It is the accident of Meditarranean geography & climate, the uniterrupted development of Aegean civilised lifestyle plus the genius of the Hellenes that made them the exception.
However, the old theory that everything emerged from the Grek States is no longer accepted: I'm unsure quite why You don't appreciate that point other than it's an Englishman, laying no claim to anything British being significant at that stage of antiquity, has written there were other significant peoples & factors.
Examples of evolutionary movements of peoples & ideas to Europe & British Isles reveal Greece was a significant adaptor, but not the only contributor:
E.g. in #157, "..The History of Europe BC & post-BC and the emergence of its 'culture' has far more to it than a naively Greco-Roman basis: European heritage also owes much to Slavic-Germanic-Asiatic-North African in-put.."
And, I wrote in #162 with reference to Mathematics etc., "..in the Indian Vedic period.. an era when parts of India were Trading with Phoenicia, Egypt & Babylonia (1500BC).."
That You missed or did not understand them and that You refuse to believe anything of significance happened before or since Greece's City States is upto You.
That You do so on the basis an Englishman wrote something is too silly for adequate description!
Just don't embarrass Yourself in future with Quotes that expose how little of what You read You have the capacity to consider from any rational perspective.
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#173. At 05:01am on 12 Oct 2010, Ellinas,
"BTW Buzet the Antikythera Mechanism operates as a complex mechanical "computer" which tracks the cycles of the Solar and it's so designed to reconcile the lengths of the lunar month with the solar year and the Olympiads. In other words constructing an artificial mathematical calendar that keeps in synchronization with both the sun and the moon fool of gear controllers and feedbacks mechanisms...
...it's everything except an advanced clock"
Shame it needed manual corrections to make it work if it's a leap year. It's also extremely corroded, partly missing, and by no means certain that the original did any of these tasks accurately. Other than that I concur with CBW in #174 and go to watch paint dry.
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171 Ellinas
I'm glad I brought a little sunshine into your day. I think the discussion about the importance of the Antikythera is now getting ludicrous and desperate in Buzzet's case when the writes: "It's also extremely corroded, partly missing, and by no means certain that the original did any of these tasks accurately." I'm sure he would be slightly corroded after 2 000 years buried in the seabed.
I'm afraid you're wasting your time as there are certain men like Buzet and CBW who claim that their country invented everything of importance like computers, democracy, parliament which are all theirs and it never enters their head to ask why, if they invented it, they had no word for it and had to borrow someone else's - mostly Greek and Roman - to describe it.
Incidentally, thank you once again for your 4 links. They were brilliant and go to show the wonders of classical civilisation at a time when our north European forefathers were wallowing in witchcraft and ignorance
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MHoward
Re #178
"...certain men... claim their country invented everything.."
That is utter claptrap and You know it!
Yet again, Your anti-English mentality is scurrilously inaccurate & uninformed.
You wont be able to produce a single quote to that effect by either myself, Buzet or any other Briton so far as I'm aware.
Like Yourself, we have had occasion to remind the terminally unenlightened MAII that the USA did not invent the earth or most things on it!
Want an exchange of stone-chucking in a glass-house, Margaret: Then let me remind You are the person who wrote supporting DemoThreat in his description of the jews in Israel as the "..dregs of society..".
It is You who claims to be afraid to "..leave my house at night.." and regularly without offering any validation finds common cause with any and everyone that writes critically about the English: You who calls for and supports England & the English being made to pay for the sins/errors of previous generations.
It is becoming increasingly clear the 'politics' shared by You & DT is of a sort most civilised people left behind some decades ago.
As for the '4 links'! Are You so truly lacking in knowledge You think 'Delphi', 'Mount Olympus Gods' etc. were not ignorant 'witchcraft'!? There is dull & there is plain stupid!
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#178 margaret howard
--✄-- I'm afraid you're wasting your time... --✄--
Don't worry Margaret...In such conversations i used to learn first from myself
Now as the discussion seems to have entered in an infinite CBW/Buzet Loop i conclude my thought on this topic by making some quotes of what enlightened western intellectuals said about their roots...
Without Greek studies there is no education.
Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer
I have never come across someone who could inspire more respect than the Greek philosophers.
Friedrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
If in the library of your house you do not have the works of the ancient Greek writers, then you live in a house with no light.
George Bernard Shaw, Irish-British playwright
It's a shame to be called "educated" those who do not study the ancient Greek writers.
Franηois Rabelais, French Renaissance writer
The world is the expanding Greece and Greece is the shrinking world.
Victor Hugo, French Romantic writer
If the sharp-sightedness of the Greeks had kept pace with their intelligence, then maybe even the Industrial Revolution had begun one thousand years before Columbus. And so, in our era, we would not just try to visit the Moon, but we would already had arrived on other close planets.
Sir Arthur C. Clarke, English author and inventor
Nobody can say a word against Greek: it stamps a man at once as an educated gentleman.
George Bernard Shaw, Irish-British playwright
How can any educated person stay away from the Greeks? I have always been far more interested in them than in science.
Albert Einstein, Jewish-American scientist
Of all peoples the Greeks have dreamt the dream of life best.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German polymath
I would prefer to be a Greek, rather than a heir apparent of a throne.
Ludwig I, King of Bavaria.
Greece was the first of civilized nations that presented an example of what man should be.
Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States
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Re 3180
I could not disagree with any on those quotes.
But then, I never did doubt Greece's place in the 'pantheon' of great civilising 'cultures': It is just a pity slow-witted Ellinas & MHoward cannot read anything by an Englishman without finding fault.
Such a limited & prejudicial atitude is perhaps explained in part by the following:
"..Freedom in the capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in the ancient Greek Republic: Freedom for Slave owners."
And,
"..In Greece wise men speak and fools decide..".
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#180. At 4:49pm on 12 Oct 2010, Ellinas
And MH
For once I have to agree about the infinite loop, both of you seem to have the problem that your brain cells are fused in a deadly embrace so that no new knowledge can ever break through, how tragic for the people around you both.
"..In Greece wise men speak and fools decide.." and Ellinas follows the word of the fools as being gospel.
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