Where does Turkey's future lie?
In Ankara today David Cameron made an impassioned pitch for Turkey to become part of the European Union. "I'm here," the British Prime Minister said, "to make the case for Turkey's membership of the EU. And to fight for it".
The Prime Minister said he was "angry" that Turkey's progress towards EU membership had been frustrated. He promised to remain Turkey's strongest advocate for EU membership. It was, he said, "something I feel very passionately about".
This fulsome embrace needs to be seen against recent fears that Turkey is increasingly looking east. The Americans say Turkey is being pushed to look for "other alliances" because it feels snubbed by Europe. Washington partly blamed European coolness for the fact that Turkey voted against new sanctions on Iran.
Certainly there is a confidence, even a swagger to Turkey. Its economy is growing by 11% a year. With a powerful economy comes influence. Ankara has been busy building links with Syria and Iran. It wants to become a power in the Muslim world. Its biggest trading partner is now Russia, not the EU.
There are plenty of voices in Turkey who believe they can do without the EU. Faith in eventual membership is ebbing away.
What has brought this about?
The EU accession talks are going nowhere. They are stalled with no breakthrough in sight. In truth neither President Sarkozy of France nor Chancellor Merkel of Germany wants Turkey as a full EU member. They want Turkey to settle for a second-class "privileged partnership". The French are committed to holding a referendum on Turkey's accession.
The Turkish view is that the "old powers" don't want another big player in the club. They suspect that public opinion in much of Europe is lukewarm or even hostile about 75 million Muslims joining the EU. The Turkish Prime Minister, Tayyip Erdogan, said "the EU will only be a Christian club without Turkey". He also, at one point, denounced what he called Angela Merkel's "hatred against Turkey".
There are, however, real issues that affect the road to EU membership.
Cyprus is a major roadblock. Turkey does not recognise Cyprus or allow its ports to be used by Cypriot vessels. It didn't help that a veteran nationalist, Dervis Eroglu, was elected president in the Turkish-backed area of northern Cyprus.
The EU is a secular union and there are fears that the Turkish government is moving away from secularism.
Turkey will also be judged on its stance towards Iran and its nuclear programme. On Monday the EU agreed on tough new sanctions against Tehran. Turkey faces a choice of either supporting the EU or enabling Iran to bypass the new restrictions.
David Cameron said today that "it's Turkey that can help us stop Iran from getting the bomb". He did not flinch from laying out the case against the Iranian regime: "Iran is enriching uranium to 20 per cent with no industrial logic for what they are doing other than producing a bomb."
Iran is rapidly becoming the biggest test as to where Turkey's interests lie.
Then there are the fears that if Turkey joins the EU, Europe will lose its identity. The politicians will have to have that discussion with the people of Europe if Turkey is to join. The people may have to be consulted. David Cameron addressed those concerns directly today "I will argue that the values of real Islam are not incompatible with the values of Europe."
Turkey for its part is watching and deciding whether it can be a bridge between East and West. The Turkish President, Abdullah Gul, said recently that Europeans "are at a point where they need to decide whether the Union is a closed entity, whether the current borders of the EU will define it for eternity, or whether it should plan 50 years ahead and think of its grandchildren, the future".
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~26~RS~)
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Cameron may be angry - but will he commit the UK to pay for Turkey's accession? I think he will, but he must understand that grandstanding in foreign parts may be fun for him but there are consequences.
He will have to convince the French and the Germans and his best way of doing that is to say here and now that he will commit the Tory party and the UK to Europe, and commit the UK to participate in all the institutions of Europe as an equal and fair partner. (That includes joining the Euro as soon as possible and I actually think he will do this too.)
Turkey in the EU will give us all a stable(ish!) home market of the best part of 3/4 billion people - close to that of China and only beaten by India and way more than the third rate super state of the USA. The powerhouse of our business will truly be able to compete as our educational, transport and communications infrastructures will be the best in the World and the banks will not be able to damage the internal trade inside the Euro.
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Cameron is another Tony Blair who tells people what they want to hear and then says something different to the next person he meets. The Turks must know that if Cameron won’t implement his own manifesto promises on the EU for fear of annoying Merkel and Sarkzoy then he certainly isn’t going to “fight” them on an issue like Turkish membership of the EU.
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"The Turkish view is that the "old powers" don't want another big player in the club."
And they are not wrong. Dilution of power is not acceptable. A new group of peons would just fine though.
If Turkey tell them to take a hike, I would not blame them. Perhaps we (UK) can join a trade group with them. A real trade group...not a super state in waiting.
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The Prime Minister [Cameron] said he was "angry" that Turkey's progress towards EU membership had been frustrated. He promised to remain Turkey's strongest advocate for EU membership. It was, he said, "something I feel very passionately about".
How can you realistically expect the Republic of Turkey be ever admitted to a "Christian club", if the Republic of Macedonia cannot even use its proper name and has to be called FYROM?
["Where are you from? FYROM. Yes, but where are you from? FYROM!" etc.]
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As an outside observer who has no dog in this fight, my observations lead me to conclude that Turkey will never be admitted to the EU. All members must agree unanimously. Besides France and Germany who have objections for many reasons, Austria will never agree, neither will Greece. As Turkey seems to be turning away from being an entirely secular state and adopting some of the ideas of fundimentalist Islam, they are moving as a society in the wrong direction if they want to join the EU. They would have to convince all members that they are and will remain forever a secular state with all of the same democratic policies of the rest of the EU. At this moment that seems an impossibility.
" David Cameron addressed those concerns directly today "I will argue that the values of real Islam are not incompatible with the values of Europe.""
The Macaroon has made one loaded statement. Real Islam by whose definition, his? What is real Islam? That depends entirely on whom you ask but in the eyes of many Moslems, their view is far from what the rest of the EU will accept. It is more to them than just a privately practiced religion between them and their god. It is a way of life where the boundary between religion and politics is hazy at best, non existant at worst. No EU member will accept that, let alone all of them. The macaroon risks alienating many other EU members and even many Brits on this issue by holding that position. It is Turkey's problem to prove otherwise and convince those in the EU who hold strong views against their membership, not the Macaroon's.
China's economy is also growing by leaps and bounds. Perhaps Europe should consider inviting them to join too.
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MM: "Its [Turkey's] biggest trading partner is now Russia, not the EU."
It must be music to the ears of the likes of Nik the Greek. :)))
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What a British prime minister says about the future of the EU is irrelevant to the EU.
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To clarify 8: British PM's have been trying to get their own country in the EU since the sixties and almost 50 years after they aren't even half-way in. How can they bring in another country.
Britain does not have the clout that Germany and France have, when it comes to EU affairs. They've been standing on the sides, so their contribution is that of by-standers. The rest is just political blah blah.
Anyway we know by now that Cameron is all talk, what he really cares about is power and spotlight, just like Blair, and that's the weight he carries when it comes to international affairs.
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Gavin wrote: The EU accession talks are going nowhere. They are stalled with no breakthrough in sight. In truth neither President Sarkozy of France nor Chancellor Merkel of Germany wants Turkey as a full EU member.
And more importantly, a majority of peoples doesn't want it either. Which is probably why the Brussels crowd (unelected Barroso's and Rompuy's) is so in favor of it.
They want Turkey to settle for a second-class "privileged partnership". The French are committed to holding a referendum on Turkey's accession.
That's more than I'm willing to give them. Turkey is NOT Europe. It isn't in Europe, everything east of Ankara is dirt poor and will either need massive subsidies or those folks will all come here, neither of which I support in any way.
The Turkish view is that the "old powers" don't want another big player in the club. They suspect that public opinion in much of Europe is lukewarm or even hostile about 75 million Muslims joining the EU.
Public opinion is hostile about a non-European country joining, not about a muslim country (say, Bosnia or Albania). Europe's borders are the Urals, Caucasus, Bosporus and Mediterranean (which is why Cyprus IS in Europe, and Turkey is not). As far as I'm concerned, Russia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are out too.
Next thing you know, they want to admit Australia, East Timor or Kenya. No is no and anything not in Europe should not be allowed to join under any circumstances.
The Turkish Prime Minister, Tayyip Erdogan, said "the EU will only be a Christian club without Turkey". He also, at one point, denounced what he called Angela Merkel's "hatred against Turkey".
Four words: illegal occupation of Kurdistan.
David Cameron addressed those concerns directly today "I will argue that the values of real Islam are not incompatible with the values of Europe."
If the Cameroon said that, then I think he's a fool. Because I think it is most decidedly incompatible.
The Turkish President, Abdullah Gul, said recently that Europeans "are at a point where they need to decide whether the Union is a closed entity, whether the current borders of the EU will define it for eternity, or whether it should plan 50 years ahead and think of its grandchildren, the future".
We ARE thinking of the future by keeping Turkey out. We don't want a border with Syria and Iran.
2.Freeborn John wrote: Cameron is another Tony Blair who tells people what they want to hear and then says something different to the next person he meets.
That's what the EU does to politicians. As soon as they arrive in Brussels, the 'system' advances on them and pressures them on all sides to do what 'Brussels' wants ahead of what the peoples want. Politicians will do anything to protect the EU gravy train. National politicians play this game all the time, promising the people something whilst all the way knowing 'Brussels' won't allow it.
In Brussels, they are very good at making politicians who disagree with the EU feel 'isolated' even if the vast majority of people would agree with that politician. Their definition of 'Europe wants x' is not 'the peoples want x' but 'Brusssels unelected crowd wants x, and if Brussels don't get it politicians from your country will encounter hostility'.
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John from Helldom #1;
Hell hath no fury like the tongue of a little England scorned.
I for one hope the UK exchanges its "special relationship" with the US for a special relationship with the Islamic Republic of Turkey. Go stalk someone else for a change.
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My understanding is that the Turkish economy is thriving whilst most of the EU zone is plagued by debt, which makes me wonder why the Turkish people would want to become members of the EU... Turkey has always gravitated towards the West for various reasons which has been lucky for the Western powers, so, given all this as well as the country's strategic importance, I think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU if that's what Turkey wants. My opinion is that the Turks are better off as they are and will end up regretting EU membership if and when it comes to pass.
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MAII wrote:
"As an outside observer who has no dog in this fight, my observations lead me to conclude that Turkey will never be admitted to the EU."
I concur. It won't.
Actually Turkey would be much better off as a hub of a confederation of oil/gas-rich Turkic states as Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, etc.
[perhaps in the future, also East Turkestan (currently: PRC's Xinjiang)]
Where such a development would leave mighty EU, with all new planned southern pipelines going through either Turkish land or territorial waters?
sapienti sat.
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Turkish Banking reform in 2001 saved Turkey from the banking swindle of 2008. The question is now, what is in it for Turkey? The only real issue for Turkey is can it remain a secular state. If it can, it will be a major player in that part of the world and maybe taking leadership within the Arab world would be more benefical for everyone. EU seems to want to share the pain as much as expand the membership.
Islam being compatiable to European values is like saying that public banking bailouts are compatiable with conservative ideas of private enterprise.
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Anyone here wondering why the negotiations with Turkey keep going on despite the popular opposition?
Despite the posturing of the little Napoleon (Sarkozy) and Kohl2 (Merkel), it has to be very clear that the E(U)lites have already decided they are going to ram this through regardless of what we the peoples think. You see, many of the E(U)lites hold popular opinion in utter contempt and think its far better to have a few unelected folks making all the decisions.
We are being duped and the undemocratic EU is just waiting for the window of opportunity to enter Turkey opens, and they only need one day.
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When Turkey can demonstrate compliance with the Copenhagen criteria, when the Turkish military accept it can never again have a privileged political role as the Guardians of Ataturk's legacy, when Turkey recognises Cyprus and concludes a Peace Treaty with it, when official Turkey recognises it's own indigenous Kurdish minority and culture, and when Turkish courts function adequately, then Turkey will be as normal as any other European country, and this debate will be welcome.
Until then, it is premature.
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Where does Turkey's future lie?
She is looking east, no longer looking west.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s PM, calls Mahmoud Ahmedinejad “a friend”. The Turkey PM must be puzzled, even dismayed, by the worries re Iran’s nuclear programme; after all, when was the last time Iran attacked another country, bombed another country, or displayed the ugly, almost genocidal behaviour of some wester countries, especially the United States of America.
Neither does Turkey's PM have much problem in accepting Sudan’s leader Omar al-Bashir; Recep Tayyip Erdogan simply responds: “Muslims don’t commit genocide”.
Ankara’s priority seems no longer (if it every truly was) towards the European Union; this is the same EU imposing terrible sanctions against Iran. Ankara’s priority seems no longer (if it every truly was) towards working alongside Nato; this is the same Nato that is primarily guided by, led with an American nose-ring.
Recep Tayyip Erdoganby seems ready to pursue an Ottoman foreign policy designed to restore Turkey’s predominance; take leadership with “soft power”. The perceived shift in Turkish foreign policy is just that - perceived.
Turkey, a secular political state, was, has always been, very much an Islamic state. Europeans and Americans should be worried about:
1. Turkey’s tightening ties with Syria, Iran, Sudan, as well as other Islamic countries. Turkey can do much to unite & lead these nations, make them a force to be reckoned with. What reason has the west ever given Erdogan that he would aspire otherwise?
2. Turkey is tightening ties with not just the Middle East, but with Russia. The west attempts to portray this a devolution of democratic freedoms and civil rights, but it's not. It's a simple realization that Turkey wants no part of western philosophies, war-mongering, and imperialism.
Turkey will indeed continue to stand up for modernisation and values such as democracy and tolerance. In fact I think the EU needs Turkey more than Turkey needs the EU?
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There is one clear point that Mr Cameron fails to mention when demanding Turkish entry. Namely Turkey does not recognise the existence of one of its current members, Cyprus. It also still illegally occupies 37% of Cyprus and maintains 40,000 troops as well as importing over 100,000 illegal colonists from the Turkish mainland to change the demographics of the island; does ethnic cleansing spring to mind?
Of course as Turkey is a market of 70 million consumers and Cyprus one of 0.7 million consumers; it is clear where Mr Cameron's allegiance is,even though Turkey is still defying the UN, EU and ICJ on the Cyprus issue.
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larcenygate;
"What a British prime minister says about the future of the EU is irrelevant to the EU."
It seems to me that what the British Prime Minister says about anything is irrelevant to anyone and has always been that way. BTW, where's Macaroon's junior in all of this? If he crosses him enough he won't have a Clegg to stand on.
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Yes please let them in and fight for them to join but only if we join the Euro and stop crying about the billions we will have to send to improve their standards of living. I'm for both of those, I don't know if David really believes what he says thought:))
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#4. At 3:25pm on 27 Jul 2010, powermeerkat,
What's wrong with that name, if there was an EU name contest I would vote for FYROM has a nice ring to it, and when my friends from Essex book a trip there they would know if they book a flight to FYROM it will not be a beach side holiday:))
Anyhow it still sound better than Wilno, that the lovely city of Vilnius used to be called by certain people:)))
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Gavin, how does your fact checking?
You said: "Its biggest trading partner is now Russia, not the EU."
Let me help you...
Turkey's import partners 2009
40,5% - 40437 Mio euro - EU
14,1% - 14102 Mio euro - Russia
09,1% - 09053 Mio euro - China
06,2% - 06149 Mio euro - United States
02,4% - 02429 Mio euro - Iran
Turkey's export partners 2009
46,2% - 33590 Mio euro - EU
05,1% - 03685 Mio euro - Iraq
04,1% - 02951 Mio euro - Switzerland
03,4% - 02452 Mio euro - United States
03,2% - 02292 Mio euro - Russia
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
In case of Europe and Turkey, the main obstacle of Turkeys membership in the EU is its poor human rights situation...
"Turkey's human rights record has long continued to attract scrutiny, both internally and externally. According to the Foreign Ministry, Turkey was sentenced to 33 million euros in 567 different cases between 1990—when Turkey effectively allowed individual applications to the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR)—and 2006.[5] Most abuses were done in the South-East, in the frame of the conflict with the PKK.[5]
In 2007, there were 2830 applications lodged against the Republic of Turkey before the ECtHR and consequently 331 judgments on the merits have been issued affirming 319 violations and 9 non-violations.[6] In 2008, Turkey ranked second after Russia in the list of countries with the largest number of human rights violation cases open at the European Court of Human Rights, with 9,000 cases pending as of August 2008.[5]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkey
In case of David Cameron...
In my opinion it is petty politicking on part of him to claim that Turkey's troubles in membership negotiations has anything to do with Europe. Maybe he doesn't like human rights, but that doesn't mean that the rest of Europe shouldn't be committed to human rights. Either Turkey starts to respect human rights or it can forget joining the European Union, there can be no compromise.
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Whilst the EU says it is secular it is at heart Christian and there are many who consider this very important. I remember when Tony Blair was running for the EU presidency and converted to Catholicism. There were many observers at the time saying this was important to many within the EU hierachy.
My concerns about Turkey are less about religion and more about economics. Whilst Turkey maybe growing by 11% per annum it is still very poor in places with a large agricultural sector putting more stress on the CAP and structural funds. It needs to keep growing at this rate for some years especially with a young population.
It is also democratically fragile with a large number of coups over the past 20 - 30 years. Perhaps some of Greeces problems are still a hangover of the relatively short transition from military junta to democractic nation to EU member. I disagree that Turkey is becoming more Islamic in its politics just less strictly secular, which is what the military have demanded. A moderate Muslim democratic party in the EU would be a very positive addition.
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# 11,
Now you're just projecting what you think that the 'Brussels crowd' - very ill defined group that - wants. Barroso has always said that Turkey should meet the requirements completely before we can talk about membership - even if he is in favour - and Van Rompuy has publically stated that he thinks Turkey isn't part of Europe, so to say that he 'wants' it, is complete nonsense. That's just projecting a certain type of prejudice.
That said, Turkey should only be become a part of the EU when it meets the criteria, and seeing how Turkey deals with free speech and dissent alone shows that they're not ready yet. Besides, the EU should get it's own house in order before we start adding more countries, especially countries the size of Turkey.
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powermerrcat:
What makes you think that there is any chance in the future that China would give up Xinjiang. As development of the natural resources in that area continue the relocation of many Han Chinese to Xinjiang will change the ethnic makeup of that region. China is not a nation that gives up land.
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Re Cyprus membership.''
Half of a speck of an island off Syria is most defenitely not Europe.
It was admitted based on political, not geographical criteria.
BTW. Mr. Sarkozy wanted Algeria, Morocco and Tunesia to be included in EU as well.
Any comments on a even further expansion of ClubMed?
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"Four words: illegal occupation of Kurdistan."
There isn't and never was a country called Kurdistan.
Nor will there ever be.
[Part of Kurds live in Turkey, part in Iraq (after Turkey was carved after WWI)
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"when official Turkey recognises it's own indigenous Kurdish minority"
I am very much against Turkey ever becoming a member of EUSSR (its not in Turkey's interest) but I have to tell you that the (late) Turkish premier Turgut Özal was Kurdish.
And that Turkish Kurds own some of the biggest Turkish construction companies and shipyards. [easy to verify independently]
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In case Europeans need reminding, the Turkish invasion of Europe was stopped at the gates of Vienna which explains why Austria is so adamant about not letting Turkey in. I have to wonder about Spain's position. Spain strikes me as a highly racist society as evidenced by the animal noises regularly directed at visiting African athletes during matches in Spain. Spain threw out the Moors in 1492 and may still have Islamophobia. Spain also succumbed to the damands of al Qaeda after the Madrid train bombing. As a result it elected a socialist government which pulled out of Iraq. Will Spain, Italy (reportedly the most racist of all EU countries) Germany, France, and Austria, the Netherlands, Denmark, allow the free flow of Moslems into their countries were Turkey to join? All it takes is one member to say no.
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I am trying to understand what is our Premier's strategy. UK as a nation or a country (let's not open the debate on this please) has always been against the EU trend for more integration (I don't know who are the crazy guys who left us in) and David Cameron is possibly trying to achieve this by diluting the union.
I would prefer leaving the Union and establishing a free trade global agreement with Turkey, India and our Eastern Europe allies.
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ghostofsichuan asks:
powermeercat:
What makes you think that there is any chance in the future that China would give up Xinjiang. As development of the natural resources in that area continue the relocation of many Han Chinese to Xinjiang will change the ethnic makeup of that region. China is not a nation that gives up land.
I don't think China is going to give up voluntarily any country it's occupied in the early 50s; that includes, of course, Tibet.
And Inner Mongolia.
Just like Russia is unlikely to voluntarily give up Manchuria.
Or Sakhalin. Or Kurils, or S. Karelia. Let alone Chechnya.
[although I hear that Russians would like to lease Vladivostok (Haishenwai), or, precisely, its huge harbor - to the Japanese.]
What I'm saying is that there are objective trends at work here which in the long run (20-30 years) maybe beyond control of Beijing, Moscow, etc.
BTW. After recent deadly riots there are not that many Han willing to voluntarily relocate to E. Turkestan (Xinjiang).
[Uighurs are not pacifist Tibetans. Nor are they Buddhists.]
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"Anyhow it [FYROM] still sound better than Wilno, that the lovely city of Vilnius used to be called by certain people:)))
I'm not sure I see a connection between Vilnius and Skopje.
You lost me there. What "certain people"? And why?
Give us a clue.
And once at it explain why they don't sell 'FYROM kebab' in Bulgaria. Only 'Macedonian' one.
BTW. I think that 'Leningrad' is much more euphonic than 'St. Petersburg'. And 'Iran' than 'Persia'.
'Albion' versus 'England'? - not so sure.
Although I'll take Malvinas anytime.
[not the warm sunny islands, God forbid; just the name]
P.S. If you and your friends want to be sure they end up on the beach - go to Aral Sea. Judging by its name...
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.... in the oven.
BOOM BOOM!!
I am the new basil brush.
Marcus, not being a patron of the classics, will not understand this reference.
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Turkey is not, and will NEVER be a European country. Not in a million years. Turkey's efforts to APPEAR European are, and have always been, pure mimicry, aimed at promoting and furthering its neo-Ottoman agenda. In reality, changes there are quite superficial - it used to be the secular-minded nationalist military who dominated the policy of Turkey, now it is the nationalist islamists, but the essence, the aims are the same.
Thе percieved "benefits" the EU is supposed to get from a Turkish membership are a pipe dream, a fantasy at the very best.
Influence in Shia-majority, teocratic Iran, which has opposed the Ottoman Turks for centuries and has a large Turkic-speakimg minority...come on...get real! Turkey is also hardly the ideal instrumant to influence Iran on anything.
The Arab world - Turkey is again a very unlikely mediator, or instrument of European influence in the Middle East, due to its problematic, complicated relations with the Arab countries. The Arabs are not inclined to let Turkey become their colonial master once again - they may try to use Turkey for occasional political gains, especially with regards Israel, but that's about it.
As for religious matters, traditionally, most Arabs actually look down on Turkish opinions about religon, since it was the Arabs that invented islam, and not Turks. In the minds of any Arab,Turkey could never possibly haven much clout on religious matters. So much for Turkey being an advertiser of "modern", "real", or "tolerant" islam in the eyes of the Arab world. Trying to use Turkey to influence Arabs on islam, is going to be just as effective, as using Americans to influence the British on the right way for preparing and drinking tea...:-)
With reference to trade and business with Turkey - well, the EU is doing quite well right now and there is no compelling argument for makig Turkey a full member, in order to do business or trade with them.
Besides, important as Turkey may be as a regional power, it is not and will never be a superpower, such as Russia, China, India or Brasil are or will be.
Turkey is doing very well right now, in the wake of the global economic crisis, but make no mistake - Turkey is a low-tech, underdeveloped/developing economy, and there exist vast disparities within the country. If Turkey were to become a full EU member, the shockingly backward, underdeveloped interior of the country will literally suck the EU budget dry in subsidies and infrastructure funds, needed to develop it.
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Lets be real, Turkey is needed it dose not need. It's on a cross road the choice is with them not with Europe or anywon else. The future is combating the growth of Asia with nearly two thirds of the population in the world. That's why europen union was eastablished. Now for dose that don't want turkey in europe your sort sighted, for the the ones that do try telling the rest that it's right to have turkey in Europe before it's too late. Asia will one day be the world power.
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# 30,
You're getting quite boring, always recycling the same stories. Yes, we all heard about the animal noises that were made at Spanish football games. You mention it at least every 5 days. Maybe next you'll regale us all with another thrilling account of how anti-semitic Germans refused you dinner? Or maybe you'll pull out the one about how a French professor at university made fun of a German student!
They never get old! Racism is a problem, but it would be nice if you wouldn't make such a caricature of it - of course, I'm talking to a wall - . Besides, you should start at home, shouldn't you. I think we all heard the little drama that Breitt & Fox managed to create over the weekend.
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Bob Kanyon wrote:
"I would prefer leaving the Union and establishing a free trade global agreement with Turkey, India and our Eastern Europe allies."
There are quite a few similar opinions in the U.S. regarding NATO.
With quite a few suggesting that we should dump the dead wood and rely on bilateral military agreements with "the willing" from 'New Europe'.
While keeping useful existing ones [vide SIGINT] with Australia, Canada, Japan, S. Korea and UK.
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25.Leo_Naphta wrote: That said, Turkey should only be become a part of the EU when it meets the criteria, and seeing how Turkey deals with free speech and dissent alone shows that they're not ready yet. Besides, the EU should get it's own house in order before we start adding more countries, especially countries the size of Turkey.
No, Turkey can never join because it is NOT European, never has been, never will be. Asia-minor is NOT Europe.
28.powermeerkat wrote:
There isn't and never was a country called Kurdistan.
The Turkish government referred to 'the illegal occupation of Palestine' even though there never has been such a country. So I and likeminded folks will turn the tables on them and loudly demand full independence of Kurdistan. We'll do anything to keep the non-European country of Turkey out. We are the majority and yes I'll take a real referendum on that.
Besides, after the carve-up of the Ottoman empire there would have been a country called Kurdistan, but then the British and French were promised Kurdish oil by Mustafa Kemal and the usual suspects (British, French) who created all those artificial countries around the world quickly erased it.
Israel should send an aid caravan to the Kurds who are brutally oppressed by Turkey. See how the Ankara government likes that.
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powermerrcat:
The Chinese people go where the jobs are. I would like to see Xinjiang remain in its natural state but that is unlikely as a number of natural resources have been discovered. The populations there are the remenants of the old Silk Road. Probably the most diverse place in China. There are elements within the Uighurs that have a leaning toward forming or joining an Islamic state but there will not be support for that inside or outside of China. The riots in the Tibet Region were certainly not passive and the "riots" in Xinjiang were caused as much by rumors and misinformation as any organized protest. As long as the primary focus of the Chinese government is to maintain order, things are unlikely to change. There are issues on those borders but China had similar issues with Russia so China does not shy away from such matters. You may wish to note that many Han Chinese have moved to the Tibet Region and that will impact the coming plebiscite. China views their maps as permanent.
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# 39, A pity that you would exclude an area completely on the idea of the geographical location as such - Istanbul (or maybe you'd prefer Constantinople), by the way, is most decidedly in Europe - . What if it had still been the Byzantine Empire? ;)
I don't think there is any reason to let Turkey join the Union on any short (20 - 30 year period) basis, but I can't say how the future will evolve, and I can't see how it will evolve in the future. Europe is an ill-defined concept both geographically as culturally as politically.
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Where Turkey's future lies, I don’t know. I know more about UK’s. Most comments here concentrate on Turkey but that is the false country. The question is what the new British government wants to achieve in EU, and actually the discussion here should be made under the article “Brits seek to influence Europe”.
Earlier this evening the German foreign minister Westerwelle rejected the ideas of the British PM concerning Turkey’̈s membership. Mr. Hewitt did not mention it in his article, but he must know too, that a number of countries in the union are opposing Turkey’s membership - at least for the present. The initiative of the new British government might therefore in the end not ease the tension in Ankara but instead increase it in the union.
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Re #39
Part of USSR would have to be in that Kurdistan too, as well as part of Iran.
[Of course much larger chunk of Iran would have to go to Azerbaijan]
But that's irrelevant.
There won't be any Kurdistan.
[Barzanis and Talabanis alone will see to it, like they always have.]
Just like there won't be any EU member called Turkey.
[It was clear almost from the start.]
P.S.MVR. many of Iraq's present problems stem from a fact that it is an artificial creation consisting of 3 incongruent although contiguous parts.
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After the Turkey-EU Ministerial Political Dialogue meeting in Istanbul July 13, 2010...Turkey’s Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu state to European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine Ashton that the EU finally must choose between:
"a powerful and strong Turkey or a small Cyprus".
The European Union’s commitment to citizens rights was confirmed in Nice in December 2000 when the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union was solemnly proclaimed. This Charter was drawn up by a Convention composed of members of the national and European parliaments, representatives of the national governments and a member of the Commission. Under six headings – Dignity, Freedoms, Equality, Solidarity, Citizens’ rights and Justice – its 54 articles spell out the European Union’s fundamental values and the civil, political, economic and social rights of the EU citizen.
The opening articles are about human dignity, the right to life, to the ‘integrity of the person’, to freedom of expression and of conscience. The chapter on ‘Solidarity’ brings together, in an innovative way, social and economic rights such as
The right to strike;
The right of workers to be informed and consulted;
The right to reconcile family life and professional life;
The right to health care, social security and social assistance throughout the European Union.
The Charter also promotes equality between men and women and introduces rights such as data protection, the right to environmental protection, the rights of children and elderly people and the right to good administration.
One of Europe’s new challenges is to make the EU an area of freedom, security and justice where everyone has equal access to justice and is equally protected by the law.
So EU is not a matter of numbers, like who has the greater population, rather who promotes justice democracy rules, human values and social progress.
Turkey promotes nothing of this things and especially in the matter of human values and social progress.
Jean Monnet back in 1952 said “We are not bringing together states, we are uniting people” and the Greek Cypriots are perfectly united not as a state but as a group of people that share commonly rights and ethics of human values, freedom of expression and promote democracy together with all the other EU partners.
That’s why 750.000 Greek Cypriots are more important than 70 million Turks. Not hear them in EU means not recognize their conscience I had described above.
EU is another train with another destination. A train full of respect of one another.
Did Mr. Caiman (of the Alligatoridae family)...Ops!...Sorry!...Cameron...the British Prime Minister said anything to Turkey about those matters? Did he will also "passionately fight for it" with his Turk friends?
Let's see who it goes this "Ménage à trois" between "Lady Diana = EU" , "Prince Charles = Britain" and the ugly "Camilla Parker Bowle = Turkey".
I think i've already show this film and how it ends...
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Bob Kenyan;
"I am trying to understand what is our Premier's strategy."
Simple, he's groveling hoping someone will accept him. That's what British politicians always do both at home and abroad. They do it with American Presidents and other elected officials all the time. We humor them and pretend we like the UK by saying nice things to their faces for public view. Behind their backs we have the same contempt for them everyone else does. If you don't believe it, just look at how Obama behaved in Copenhagen last December. Not even a hello.
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"China views their maps as permanent."
Like everybody else satisfied with a status quo.
Although I know some Chinese who claim that Treaty of Aigun was signed under duress.
And therefore, although accepted by Beijng is not exactly legal.
Make of it what you want but I am sure you know that Manchurians have been already crossing the Russian border for years and settling in the sparsely populated Primorsky Krai, thus creating sort of a fait accompli.
[Since Moscow has been well aware of that ongoing process]
P.S. Majority of Uighurs are not demanding an independent, let alone Islamic, state.
They simply want much more autonomy and self-rule in local matters.
Just like Tibetans.
But if their demands are not met in the near future, sooner or later...
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It's difficult to see how Turkey can be considered for admission to the EU following its illegal invasion and continued occupation of Cyprus.
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I would comment my point of view if moderator team wouldn't keep deleting all my posts
alas
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This is BBC's another one-sided HYS to shape up public opinion on it's own agenda.
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Leo_Naphta wrote:
# 39, A pity that you would exclude an area completely on the idea of the geographical location as such - Istanbul (or maybe you'd prefer Constantinople), by the way, is most decidedly in Europe - . What if it had still been the Byzantine Empire? ;)
No, that would be "something completely different", I'm sure. :-)))
BTW. Most scientists, have no doubt that Georgia is a European country.
[for anthropological, historic, cultural and religious reasons]
Jus like most geographers and cartographers have accepted loooong time ago, that the line dividing Eurasian continent into its Europan and Asian part runs along Ural Mountains.
So a large chunk of Russia is European; at least geographically.
Waht does it mean in practical terms? Not much.
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I read from the BBC main article:
"""David Cameron has promised to "fight" for Turkey's membership of the European Union, saying he is "angry" at the slow pace of negotiations."""
Haha... yes "fight"... Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan style?
"""On his first visit as prime minister, he said the country could become a "great European power", helping build links with the Middle East."""
"great European power" aaaaaaahahaha... should I laugh with the "great", with the "European" or with the "power"?
"""In a speech at the Turkish parliament in Ankara, Mr Cameron said he wanted to "pave the road" for Turkey to join the EU, saying the country was "vital for our economy, vital for our security and vital for our diplomacy"."""
"vital"... for whom? For Portugal or for Sweden? A yes! For the UK. But the rest 440,000,000 Europeans do not care about that.
"""While praising Turkey's secular and democratic traditions, Mr Cameron stressed that Turkey must continue to push forward "aggressively" with economic and political reform to maintain momentum towards EU membership."""
"Aggressive" pffff...
----------------------------------
Question: what is that choice of words really? If Cameron-boy just visits people and tells them what they want to hear then Turks just wanna hear about being:
1) vital
2) fighting
3) aggressive
4) powerful
5) great
6) ... european
What kind of psychological complexes some have to need to hear Cameron tell them the above must be there, I am really wondering. Interesting issue. Even more when they passed most of the 20th century exterminating all European populations in their country as well in foreign countries they invaded, and now they want to become themselves europeans. What kind of complexe is that?
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... and the question remains:
It just does not matter what the UK wished (and clearly they want Turkey inside to make them 2 in the EU). The question is on Turks. Why? EU has a long record of bad economic performances, reduced autonomy of action, ruining local interests and using peripheral countries as boxing sacks and milking cows. Turks must be blind not to see all that. So what drives Turks becoming so .... altruists... wishing to enter the EU? That is the question indeed!
Why do Turks want to join the European Union? Do they really feel they have something to do in Europe? Do they feel being Europeans? Or is it just that kind of complex of the "low-class wishing to enter the high-class salon just to satisfy personal complexes of inferiority"?
If nothing like that is true then what is the motive?
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Gavin forgot to mention that both leaders condemned Israel for ´PRISON CAMP´Gaza, while discussing Iran. (rather dishonest and incomplete reporting)
TWO Nato members are expressing dissatisfaction with Israel -- and more will follow !
No doubt Cameron has also plans that Turkey accept the Pound Sterling as a Euro alternative and Sterling support.
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35. At 6:51pm on 27 Jul 2010, DLT wrote:
Priceless message (if you are any other EU nationality than Greek, then you are quite knowledgeable of the region).
Indeed you are right on every single point you made and I built on it:
Turkey:
1) cannot be used as a link with other sunni muslims because the rest are Arabs and simply the last thing they want is to have Turks telling them stories again. Syria has more negative than positive relations with Turkey and other Middle Eastern countries have simply no particular touch
2) cannot be used as a link to other turkic muslim communities in central Asia. The pantourkic idea was applied for 20 years now and is deemed a blatant failure apart the isolated case of Azerbaitzan in desperate need of political support from Turkey in its issues at Nagorno Karabah where it got crashed by the local militia army of this break-way Armenian region
3) cannot be used as a mediator to Iran as Iran is their good old shiite enemies they had been fighting for centuries for the control of Mesopotamia. Brief links cannot restore the vast civilisational let alone geopolitical chasm between the two countries
therefore:
4) cannot be sold as a country that has more to offer to the EU
and on top:
5) cannot be taken seriously when it openly starts neo-Ottoman agendas (ref. to Davut-oglu boy)
6) cannot be consided European: not only as a culture or mindset which is day and night different to the rest of the Europeans but also even the "mimickry" of the fascist military Kemalist regime has eaten all its breads and evidently does not have anything to sell nowadays...
I.e. too much talk or nothing.
Turkey has nothing particular to offer to Europe other than becoming no2 next to UK in being a blind follower of the US geopolitical plans in Eurasia.
"""Besides, important as Turkey may be as a regional power, it is not and will never be a superpower, such as Russia, China, India or Brasil are or will be."""
Correct. If Cameron spent half the words he said for Russia or Brazil it would be much more beneficial for the EU cause. Now, the definition of a "regional power" necessarily passes from the point of it being capable all by itself to yield some autonomous power and if it wishes to enforce pass its will. Turkey is not such. So far it has not moved a single cm without consulting first the US and Britain. Plain speaking, the term puppet-power is more fitting than the terms Cameron used.
US and UK wishes are understandable, but then why would the EU want to receive in the club a US-puppet power? What for?
And on the other side, the question remains. Why would Turks wish to enter the EU? Why do they need it so much?
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#52 Nik
Greece is not in the same league as Turkish industry --- So go back to sleep and keep your powder dry !
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JukkaRohila @#23
"...In case of Europe and Turkey, the main obstacle of Turkeys membership in the EU is its poor human rights situation..."
Personally, I thought the Europeans were pretty good when it came to human rights but then you did write ... "EU" is its poor human rights situation! That explains why it would be so difficult for Turkey to join - they wouldn't want to go downhill would they?. ;0)
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Following on from #34.
Turkey, by joining the EU, could end up voting for Christmas!
Turkey eggs, its the way you crack 'em!
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Powermerrcat:
As the Europeans were picking the bones of China during that period it would be fair to say that the Chinese viewed that treaty as signed under duress. Foreign warships on China's rivers and coast was the diplomacy of the day.Others followed and after all the British were fighting to sell opium to the Chinese and other high moral reasons. Their fellow Europens and the US decided that this was easy money and the Russians decided why should they be left out. The Chinese have not forgotten all this and it is still playing out. Now they are all lined up at China's door borrowing money....history can be ironic.
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#47 distant traveller
--Get your history right -- or do some traveling !
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Cameron has taken lessons from 'Yes Minister':
Britain must be at the heart of the EU... in order to destroy it.
Well done, Dave!!!
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MadMax
"Cameron has taken lessons from 'Yes Minister':"
No, The Macaroon has taken lessons from...The Cookie Monster!
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Why is this joke of a UK prime minister insisting Turkey join the EU.
It's only because the united states want it, and all cameron is doing is pampering to the united states again. When will the UK as a nation make it's own international agenda. Are we in Europe or not. David Cameron has no right to make such a statement about Turkey joining the EU, when Turkey as a nation has not met the most basic criteria of joing Europe.
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41.Leo_Naphta wrote:# 39, A pity that you would exclude an area completely on the idea of the geographical location as such
Really? Then why call it European Union, if you're not gonna limit it to Europe? What's next? New Zealand? Japan?
Istanbul (or maybe you'd prefer Constantinople), by the way, is most decidedly in Europe
Half of it isn't. And most of the country isn't either. Plus: Turkey is not Istanbul.
I don't think there is any reason to let Turkey join the Union...
I agree with that part ;-)
(and left the rest of the sentence out :-)
Europe is an ill-defined concept both geographically as culturally as politically.
Not in my book it isn't. Urals, Caucasus, Bosporus, Mediterranean.
Leaves Turkey out in my book. Oh, and the Turkish army ought to launch a coup against the AKP which is undermining secularity.
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Pre 1974 Turks in Cyprus had to go through check points before they could cross from one town to the next. People would go missing. Questions was asked by turkey no answers were given. Then one day the Greeks felt so confident that they tried to wipe out all the Turks from Cyprus. Turkey stood up to this and did something while all the other countries sat back and whatched. Pre 1974 over 1200 Turks was massacred. Turkey put an end to all that. I hope they do the same for the palestians. Turkey will bow to no nation it's foundations is older than America & Australia put together. That's fact don't like look it up. And as for the Kurds who are armed by the isrealis and the Greeks who also provide the propaganda, keep on trying. Now the issue with Europe. Turkey is not your toy they will how ever provide you with bread and butter for the future we all now that. The European economy is week and will get weaker in fifty years time. Asia America will be way ahead. So now you tell me who needs who. Turkey has 70 percent of the population all students ready for the future. While Europe has 50 percent of the population over fifty years old. Europe will be the beggars in years to come. That's why cameron is doing it now.
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Nick at Nite;
"It's only because the united states want it, and all cameron is doing is pampering to the united states again."
I really do wish the American government would stay out of what are clearly European affairs. They will of course do whatever they want and when it blows up in their faces as their lunacy inevitably does, our meddling will only give them an excuse to blame us for their own folly. Then they will want to somehow be compensated for it. Please Mister President, when it comes to other nations internal affairs that don't affect us, I beg of you to just shut up. In other words...zip it.
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He he
There is no surprise in Cameron's discourse.
First he gets some economical advantages from Turkey for "being so much on their side".
Second he gets an upper position in negotiations with Germany and France by being able to renounce little by little to his support for Turkey.
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I usualy don't comment on news posts but this time I had to as it's BBC;
You should not take any comments about Kurds or Cyprus serious on news about Turkey, unless those comments come from someone who lived in Turkey or Cyprus and has a wide knowledge on history and geography. I am a journalist as well and I say, to comment on some other country you have to have a wide knowledge of it's history and culture otherwise it becomes a pro or anti speech without a base, I can't lecture anyone on these topics as this would take days. For the EU topic Turkey needs EU for a stable market, free travel for business and regional security nothing else, for some comments on Super Powers, people should study more before commenting, to be a power you need more than economical growth and among those countries only China is becoming a Super Power and India a Major Power, and if you'd like to know Turkey study, all those anti-turkey bullshit is only for illeterate and narrow minded, Finally if you didn't live in Turkey or studied it at University stop commenting except your self opinion on the news mentioned. For me Turkey may or may not join the EU it's not a major concern, Turkey should modernise itself on it's own way not others. Also Turkey doesn't need to be a European country to join the union EU is a name it doesn't mean countries on European countinent not anymore. Thank you for reading.
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I think it would be detrimental for Turkey to join the EU. i don't think it is a true union in the sense that the US is and never will be. Look at the members: non of them are doing too well. They can not decide on anything, Majority of Brits I speak with here don't want anything to do with the EU. You will find that majority of the Turks do not want to join either.
As a Turk I think, our interests are best served by continuing to open up to more trade with our neighbours in the short to medium term, in the longer term all of Middle east, Russia, Latin America. Russia is already a good trading partner. Get out of NATO as well, it is only annoying our neighbours and potential trading partners.There is no military threat to Turkey.
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So what will happen if The Macaroon vists Greece anytime soon? Maybe he should send his junior Cleggy. As a duo each can speak out of a different side of the British government's mouth. Isn't that a politician's instinct anyway?
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Future? The Turks will be most welcome to join EU if they can make Schweinsbraten their staple diet and Remy Martin (I recommend Louis XIII) their national drink. Plus all sorts of imported German sausage and french wine (sorry, no 'fish & chips', boiled veg, or tea allowed).
If they can do this it will be a lot easier for Cameron to 'fight' and 'make a case' for them! :-D
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@lilliput
Your point
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lacerniagigante
Re #8, #10 & the other UK has got 'no say' in EU detractors
UK is the 2nd/3rd largest contributor (depending on the type of measurement & basically as France's economy lives off the other EU26 it doesn't count, so, in reality UK is 2nd to Germany).
That eminent annual Fiscal-Economic contribution plus 3rd largest population, 2nd/3rd largest 'internal market', key Commission posts, Foreign Rep Ashton, and UK/England's geo-political links via Commonwealth make it a Nation with considerable clout within the EU.
Also, in past times it was UK championed the cause of Sweden, Finland etc. entering the EU, so it has shown that commitment.
Just on a matter of principle like any EU member it is entitled to promote the 'entry' of any prospective Nation.
The reality is Turkey's enormous struggles with its membership application/negotiations just 100% expose the duplicity and reckless disregard for the basics on which France-Germany publicly proclaim the virtues of the EU: Namely, 'ever closer union' - - it is a fallacy - - the axis-of-ill-intent are only interested in supporting measures to increasse their hegemony. Clearly were Turkey to become a full member the geo-political/demographic/cultural/economic structure of the EU would be radically altered. The core, centralising controllers in Paris-Berlin would find they are under intense pressure from 'west' (UK/England) and 'east' (Turkey) and the self-serving, self-appointed founding-inspirators' influence (Paris-Berlin) would be severely challenged and doubtless much reduced.
As an 'anti-EU' I enjoy this debacle whatever its outcome: The long drawn-out discussions of Turkish entry serve to show Paris-Berlin are liars about their 'ever closer union' and demonstrate their venal interests govern the Brussels' framework; if Turkey were to gain membership the undermining of Paris-Berlin might almost make UK/England membership become a more viable proposition because Paris-Berlin would not be able to control the political 'input' & decision-making process in the manner they have for the last 20 post-Maastricht years.
Incidentally, all those 'pro-EU' (opposed to Turkey) and indeed anyone familiar with Maastricht's details & the Single Union must know Turkey's application is entirely within the framework of acceptability.
Yes, Turkey, like others presently applying has much to do (and given its uniqueness as a Muslim Nation the difficulties are greater - - however, Paris-Berlin's opposition has allowed the bigots to emerge in full voice - - for an EU proclaiming 'unity' & 'neighbourliness' it is very unedifying). Turkey's attitudes to Human Rights being only 1 of several areas where harmonistaion still has a long way to go: Nevertheless, to complete its preparations, but the additional hurdle placed in Turkey's way plus the outright opposition of Paris-Berlin (& others, e.g. Athens) is contrary to the letter & spirit of the 1992 EU pacts.
Consequently, I hope Turkey gains admittance, but confess the day the negotiations finally collapse will not from a UK/England viewpoint be all that bad. It may well give the PM after Cameron (it'll take 10 years for Turkey to get the hostile message from Paris-Berlin) all the excuse needed to go to the British Public with a Referenda on membership.
Of course the latter scenario will be a tragedy for Europe: A disillusioned & probably ultra-Islamic giant nation on its south-east doorstep, the never-ending Cyprus divide, the likelihood of Turkey supporting promotion of radical Islam inside the EU, the 'loist' immense & developing internal market that Turkey offers, and instead a huge & very competitive non-EU Economy on its doorstep...
The EU may never recover from such a mistake.
The probability a UK/England Government masy also finally conclude that the stagnant-stifling Paris-Brussels-Berlin cabal really will only countenance their avaricious political-economic interests at whatever cost to the rest of the EU: Inspiration for UK & perhaps others to get out from under Brussels...
No, Turkey outside the EU does not bode well at all for the political monstrosity in its present format.
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Re #59
"British were fighting to sell opium to the Chinese and other high moral reasons. Their fellow Europens and the US decided that this was easy money and the Russians decided why should they be left out. The Chinese have not forgotten all this and it is still playing out. Now they are all lined up at China's door borrowing money....history can be ironic."
Yes, it can, can't it?
All what's needed now is a "Manchurian Candidate". :)
BTW. I was talking to a Chinese (US-educated) aeronautical engineer travelling with his family through Peru last autumn.
I've mentioned Ural Mountains.
He seemed puzzled and looked at his 20sh son who explained:
'ULAR mountains'. :)
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"Oh, and the Turkish army ought to launch a coup against the AKP which is undermining secularity."
At least give them some credit for fighting Commie PKK.
[you have to start somewhere]
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Liliput wrote: "Plus all sorts of imported German sausage and french wine (sorry, no 'fish & chips', boiled veg, or tea allowed)."
"German sausage and French wine"?
Liliput, your post alone has given me an indigestion.
[almost like Helmut Kohl's notorious cook book]
It's either Adana kebab washed down with rake, or Tournedot a la Rossini
[you know ,the great French composer :)] washed down with a decent Pouillac.
[Of course there's always surf&turf (sauted scallops+mahi-mahi steak) washed down with a Californian Petite Sirrah.]
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MAII asks:So what will happen if The Macaroon vists Greece anytime soon?
Doubt it. Even if BA cabin crews are not on strike, it'll be them Greek air traffic controllers.
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Diplomacy is running relatively fast in Ankara these days. Yesterday Cameron promised Turkey a membership, today the German foreign minister will tell Ankara that the country is not ready for a membership. Ankara will have to decide what is more likely.
Turkey is poorer than Rumania, and many Germans would like to know if Cameron is ready to involve Turkey in the CAP and perhaps to desist from the British rebate in that connection.
It remains unclear, what the real purpose of Cameron’s initiative is. Maybe the answer is to be found in Washington. On the other hand, UK has already previously used enlargement as a strategy to weaken the union.
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@ cool_brush_work
"That eminent annual Fiscal-Economic contribution plus 3rd largest population, 2nd/3rd largest 'internal market', key Commission posts, Foreign Rep Ashton, and UK/England's geo-political links via Commonwealth make it a Nation with considerable clout within the EU."
1.) I do agree that our fiscal contributions to the E.U. are large. That said, we benefit from the E.U. much more than the E.U.'s largest contributor, Germany, which hardly gets any funding for anything from the E.U. at all.
2.) The British Commonwealth is not a geo-strategic asset and it does not give Britain any advantage over any of the other European nations. If the Polish government wishes to contact the Indian or South African government, it will be able to do so without having to take a communicative detour via Britain. I find it quaint and rather puzzling that so many Britons still believe that the Commonwealth somehow gives Britain an edge over anyone else. It's more akin to a museum display than to a geo-strategic asset.
3.) Referring to Germany and, in particular, France, as an "axis of ill-intent" is nonsense. They are two countries within the European Union which seek to do as best as they can with the Union. Just like every other country in it. Now David Cameron has paid a visit to Turkey, and being the walking-talking conservative cliché that he is, he has identified Germany and France as the ones to blame for Turkey's failure to join the Union. He has not provided any proof for the veracity of his statements. But Cameron spewed the propaganda he was always going to spew, no surprise there. What I find rather more disappointing is that you, cool_brush_work, seem to swallow this clap-trap hook line and sinker. It's pretty unpleasant seeing an intelligent and thoughtful person such as yourself stoop to that level.
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Ahh come on, The PM knows full well Turkey's accession will be spoiled but he is far more concerned with the future security of the BP Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline running across Turkey. Thats in the interests of the EU for sure! Who wants to be without oil - think about it.
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Just read this in The Economist (Bagehot's notebook) and it made me smile: "... in Germany, for example, it is a big deal that if Turkey did achieve membership in 2025, say, it is projected to have a larger population than any other EU country. That would give Turkey, overnight, the largest delegation of members of the European Parliament. That profoundly shocks Germans, who take the EP rather seriously. In Britain, many people could not care less if a delegation of chimpanzees were elected to the Strasbourg assembly."
Just think though, the Human Rights Law would quickly become the Chimpanzee Rights Law and Chimpanzees could impose their rules and behaviurs on the rest of us very quickly. I think the British might well object to that ... they pretty much object to everything to do with EU imposed rules and rights anyway.
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Gavin,
I think that the good intended stance the British coalition government has addopted with regards of the present Turkish leadership lacks some essential points. One cannot declare openly that all the cultural/religious/political/social etc. differences between us, European (mainly Christian) nations cannot be a reason that would prevent Turkey from being invited to join the EU. Second, if we add to the all those obvious differences (which would suggest a total incompatibility between the code of secular values the Europeans share and the cultural traditions still in force in Turkey), the fact that Turkey, so far, did not recognized openly the genocide its troops perpetrated of several millions of Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Arabs, Bulgarians etc., within a relatively short historic period of time, say, from 1913 up to 1974, we must agree that the present Turkish leadership naively believes that its historical past, and his present are enough “clean” for applying for a full membership to the EU.
Even, if we admit, that by some miracle, Turkey will be allowed to join the Brussels institutions as a full member state, that circumstance does not necessarily mean that Turkey will counterbalance (as expected by Mr.Cameron) the present French/German political/economical preponderance in the “cooking” of the general EU policy. Turkey might play its own card, much to the dissatisfaction of Mr.Cameron and its government. I would name that Turkish eventual stance a “Turkish Gambit”, that may surprise in a quite unpleasant way all member states…
And last, but not least, old Europe is not at all a correctional house for that country which is much closer to Asia both geographically and politically. Sorry Mr. Cameron!
Regards from Sofia
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Mathiasen @#79
You do understand that the UK would give up the UK's EU Rebate immediatley (like, Yesterday!) if there was no Common Agricultural Policy that rewards European Farmers for NOT growing foodstuffs?
I am sure that the UK would willing agree to surrendering the rest of the UK's Rebate if Turkey was prevented from joining the EU AND prevented from receiving the benefits of the CAP ... but ...
The reality is that most vociferous of the deGaullist "Non" voices decrying Turkey joining the EU are agricultural economies such as France who perceive dilution of the benefits of the CAP Benefits paid to French farmers if Turkey joins the EU because Turkey still has, intrinsically, a farming/agricultural economy.
Indeed, the dilution of the CAP Benefits to France, created by Turkey joining the EU, could lead to the end of the CAP altogether as the increased cost of the CAP to the rest of the EU nations would be humungous.
Britain will give up the Rebate if Germany and France agree to the end of the CAP ... simples!
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#76. At 08:17am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote
"At least give them some credit for fighting Commie PKK."
ChrisArt(a) ...continue
As well as any democraticaly elected government that they didn't like:))
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inkblot @#81
Don't forget thet the BP Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline running across Turkey will soon be the Exxon (or some other wholly USA-owned Oil Company)Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline running across Turkey which goes some way to explaining why the Obama Administration are so intent on driving down BP Shares to the point of company valuation being ripe for BP takeover.
As people often say when the USA goes to war or does anything the Rest of the World gawp and wonder about ... it is all about The Oil!
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Turkey is (basically) occupying a significant chunk of Cyprus. Negotiations shouldn't have even been started till this was rectified.
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65. At 11:41pm on 27 Jul 2010, Unal wrote:
"""Pre 1974 Turks in Cyprus had to go through check points before they could cross from one town to the next. People would go missing. Questions was asked by turkey no answers were given.""".
Checkpoints were crreated by the British in co-operation with Turkey that wanted to enforce already since the 1950s the taskim policy: a divided island. And this occured before the clashes of the 1960s. Now you know who is behind all that.
"""Then one day the Greeks felt so confident that they tried to wipe out all the Turks from Cyprus."""
Really? When? When they were fighting the British? Did Greeks in the 1950s attack the small poor and unintersting muslim community? Show to me a showcase.
"""Turkey stood up to this and did something while all the other countries sat back and whatched."""
Lies. Turkey did not stand to anything. They had a taksim policy already since the early 1950s after the instigation of Britain. Their interest was to instigate fear and hatred in the Turkish Cypriots to make them desperate and angry, then to pass arms to the to make them violent. All that precedes the 1960s.
"""Pre 1974 over 1200 Turks was massacred."""
And since the 1930s overall more than 10,000 Greeks out of which the 30% (i.e. 3 times the number of killed muslims) were killed by Turkish Cypriots, either local bandits or uniformed ones of the infamous British militia. So? What is your point?
"""Turkey put an end to all that."""
Turkey did not do anything. It was Britain and US that ordered Turkey to enter and divide the island. The British had asked much earlier Turkey, in 1963. In 1964 Turkey tried to organise a campaign of invasion but it was deemed incapable to do it. In 1966 again, they gathered their army and tried to sail against Cyprus and they went back seeing that they would meet resistance by the Greeks on the island and they would risk an attack of the then much more powerful Greek army (Greek army was considerably more powerful than the Turkish until the 1980s). Then US intervened and took things in hands - the 2 successive Greek dictatorships of the 1967-73 and 73-74 are directly related to Cyprus and both the cases related to the Middle East. You must be deaf & blind not to know what happened in 1967 and in 1973.
"""I hope they do the same for the palestians."""
Really? Did not see you protest against your country's blind love for Israel so many decades now. Too late to shed tears for Palestinians.
"""Turkey will bow to no nation it's foundations is older than America & Australia put together."""
Turkey has no particular foundations other than the 1920 declaration of Kemal that the muslims of the Ottoman Empire be it black, white, yellow are all called Turks and they should aspire their ancestry in the Mongolo-turks. I would not call that old foundations unless Swedish can regard ancient Greece as their foundation... in a way for a barbaric and aggressive country like Turkey, it is fitting they regard the barbaric Mongols as their foundations.
"""that's fact don't like look it up."""
Haha... are you telling me to look up what?
"""And as for the Kurds who are armed by the isrealis and the Greeks who also provide the propaganda, keep on trying."""
The Israelis are your allies. Sort it out with them. There was never found any evidence that Greeks ever armed the Kurds unless you accept the fact that your militarised country is so incapable that a very low-equiped, low-trained information agency like the Greek EYP can organise such a blatant operation within your country. I take it as a compliment but won't take it as a fact.
"""Now the issue with Europe. Turkey is not your toy they will how ever provide you with bread and butter for the future we all now that. The European economy is week and will get weaker in fifty years time."""
But it you that want to enter Europe. It is not Europeans asking you. Only your good old friend, Britain asks you to do so. You keep evading the question:
Why do you want to enter Europe?
"""Asia America will be way ahead."""
Good for them.
"""So now you tell me who needs who."""
No European ever claimed to be in need of Turkey. You are having again dreams of being "needed" kid!
"""Turkey has 70 percent of the population all students ready for the future."""
Did not see the reflection of what you say on my numerous visits in Turkey. I saw a massive part of the population half-illiterate and of very low status. If in a country of 50 million Turks and 20 million Kurds there are some million educated ones that cannojt change the %.
"""While Europe has 50 percent of the population over fifty years old."""
Why do you care about it? That is Europeans' issue.
"""Europe will be the beggars in years to come."""
Why do you care about it?
"""That's why cameron is doing it now. """
No. He wants you in cos you are his boys. You are his yes-men as well as being US yes-men. It is expected he wants you in.
Unal, just like any other Turk or pro-Turk you keep evading the questions:
Tell me:
Why do you want to join Europe?
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Further to my #82
And, of course, if Turkey joins the EU in 2025, due entirely to Turks having the projected largest national population, the whole dymnamics of Qualified Majority voting in the Council of Europe would change overnight.
Potentially the Turks, with an economy that is 15th Largest in the World could be dictating the future of the EU - much to the chagrin of the current de facto leading economic nation of the EU - simply because of votive weight of having the biggest population.
The Germans would hate that situation to arise!
You have to admire the very-far-forward thinking of David Cameron ...
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Cameron a eurosceptic tells E.U what to do!!
I rest my case.
Turkey's PM have much problem in accepting Sudan’s leader Omar al-Bashir; Recep Tayyip Erdogan simply responds: “Muslims don’t commit genocide”.
I also rest my case .
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#84. At 09:29am on 28 Jul 2010, Menedemus
I notice that you use "if" as couple of times in your contribution. It is amazing how often people plunge into hypotheses here.
The CAP is a fact, and it remains a fact for the present. (I refer you to a message I have previosly written about a Danish idea recently to give up the CAP.) If PM Cameron would like to make suggestions that mean a special agreement with Turkey instead of a full membership, he is welcome. Only, that it is not what he has done so far.
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ChrisArta wrote:
#76. At 08:17am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote
"At least give them some credit for fighting Commie PKK."
ChrisArt(a) ...continue
As well as any democraticaly elected government that they didn't like:))
You're correct. PKK terrorists didn't like any democratically elected Turkish government: left-wing or right-wing; religious or secular.
BTW. Do you recall which democratically elected government was hiding PKK's leader, Ocalan, (now safely in jail) in its embassy in Nairobi?
[somehow I don't think it was Vilnius. :))]
(to be continued - if necessary)
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"Turkey is poorer than Rumania, and many Germans would like to know if Cameron is ready to involve Turkey in the CAP"
And I thought it was mainly Paris' and French farmers' concern. ;)
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" Referring to Germany and, in particular, France, as an "axis of ill-intent" is nonsense. They are two countries within the European Union which seek to do as best as they can with the Union."
And not "seek to do as well as they can within the Union"?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEY JOINED TO DO GOOD; AND THEY DID WELL.
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68. At 01:25am on 28 Jul 2010, orkhun wrote:
"""You should not take any comments about Kurds or Cyprus serious on news about Turkey, unless those comments come from someone who lived in Turkey or Cyprus and has a wide knowledge on history and geography."""
Ok tell us how is going the war with the Kurds? 40,000 dead since 1980? Everything over? Ready to join the EU?
"""I am a journalist"""
No you are a propagandist.
"""as well and I say, to comment on some other country you have to have a wide knowledge of it's history and culture otherwise it becomes a pro or anti speech without a base, I can't lecture anyone on these topics as this would take days."""
I am Greek, I know Turkey's history by heart, I have visited the country numerous times and thus I am the best positioned to speak of Turkey. Spare us the geographical lessons.
"""For the EU topic Turkey needs EU for a stable market, free travel for business and regional security nothing else,"""
Fair enough. Iran wants also the EU as a stable market for its oil, free travel for its citizens and free trade of uranium afterall... Why not Iran in the EU?
"""for some comments on Super Powers, people should study more before commenting, to be a power you need more than economical growth and among those countries only China is becoming a Super Power and India a Major Power,"""
Correct.
""""and if you'd like to know Turkey study, all those anti-turkey bullshit is only for illeterate and narrow minded,"""
Speak to us first about the genocides, the slaughters, the pongroms and then come to lecture people about being narrow minded.
"""Finally if you didn't live in Turkey or studied it at University stop commenting except your self opinion on the news mentioned."""
Funny this coming from such a "knowledgeable" person. Since you seem to know Turkey that much tell me: what was the population of Minor Asia in 1910? % of muslims christians? How many christians did finally manage to get out? (note that if you do the + and - you will get the number of the genocided). Speak mr expert!
"""For me Turkey may or may not join the EU it's not a major concern, Turkey should modernise itself on it's own way not others."""
Stop being aggressive and getting civilised for a start? No?
"""Also Turkey doesn't need to be a European country to join the union EU is a name it doesn't mean countries on European countinent not anymore. Thank you for reading."""
Syria and Iran too.
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A quote in #82" In Britain, many people could not care less if a delegation of chimpanzees were elected to the Strasbourg assembly."
And what difference would it make?
300 pounds gorillas - now, that would be a chimpanzee of another colour.
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"The PM knows full well Turkey's accession will be spoiled but he is far more concerned with the future security of the BP Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline running across Turkey. Thats in the interests of the EU for sure! Who wants to be without oil - think about it."
Please remind me who shut down a flow of gas to EU 2 years ago?
And in which pipeline? :)
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90. At 09:51am on 28 Jul 2010, 1054 wrote:
"""Cameron a eurosceptic tells E.U what to do!!
I rest my case."""
Epic comment 1054!
"""Turkey's PM have much problem in accepting Sudan’s leader Omar al-Bashir;"""
Oh! Should I cry now or later?
"""Recep Tayyip Erdogan simply responds: “Muslims don’t commit genocide”.
I also rest my case .""""
This is the prime minister of a country which 100 years ago had 17 million people out of which 7 million people where christians out of which only 3 million people managed to get out under the worst of violence and conditions, yet the rest 4 millions are nowhere to be found in this 100% muslim country while there is no known case of massive conversions of people that found out the truth in Koran.
No, of course muslims do not commit genocide as the word does not exist in their language: they commit massive slaughters of infidels but infidels do not count for human beings according to muslims.
You have to really enter a turks-only discussion to see how they speak of infidels to understand the level we are talking about.
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Mathiasen @#91,
I have to hypothesise as the reality of the EU NOW is that Turkey has no hope of joining the EU because the Germany-Brussels-France Axis 'owns' the EU.
Similarly your reply contains the hypothesis that IF PM Cameron would like to make suggestions that mean a special agreement with Turkey instead of a full membership, he is welcome.
Of course, continuing with my conjecture and, hypothetically speaking, if Turkey were to be considered for 'associate' membership rather than 'full' membership (despite meeting all requirements and conditions demanded by the EU for convergence prior to normally achieving full membership) then that would be a really telling example of how Germany and France actually 'rule the roost' within the EU and that the UK and the rest of the EU nations are mere pawns.
IF I were David Cameron, I would certainly keep pressing the button for Full Turkish accession to the EU as (a) it will get up the noses of the Germans and French who clearly want to maintain the status quo with Germany and France dictating the future of the EU and running the EU entirely for their benefit and (b) enlargement of the EU should include all nations who are European or which are adjacent to the very nebulous organism that IS Europe should have the same right to achieve accession conditions and enjoy full membership of the EU as the EU should not be a private club run just for the benefit of France and Germany.
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I can only believe that David Cameron was making a speech in Turkey that says ALL the right things to please the Turks . I would be surprise if they beieved a word he said ; or he believed a word of it too .
Has the EU become nothing more than a money grubbing exercise ?!!
Has the EU no morals at all , that it will sell its soul for money like an act of prostitution .
David Cameron must know perfectly well that Turkey's entry to the EU would have strong opposition from other members such as France and Germany and probably many other countries including his own .
Perhaps he is emulating John Major's recommendation to enlarge the EU ; which in my view has as good as scuppered the whole project . All we need is Turkey to join and the EU might fall apart . Perhaps David Cameron is embracing the EU with a poison tongue , just with that in mind .
As a Briton , I am embarrassed that David Cameron should have made such a speech ; which to me and I suspect many throughout Europe seems so false .
I think the Turks would think so too .
I think it very unlikely that Turkey will join the EU in the foreseeable future , if ever .
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About Turkey's EU membership in general -
I am in favour of Turkey joining the union. The benefits of an accession would be impossible to miss.
1.) The Cyprus question - northern Cyprus would be a part of the EU which would make the question of which country Cyprus belongs to a moot point overnight.
2.) economics - Turkey is an economic, cultural and scientific powerhouse which would be a real asset to the union.
3.) Having Turkey firmly embedded in the E.U. would open up new geo-strategic options in the Middle East.
For the time being, however, there is an obstacle that needs to be overcome before any sane and reasonable person can agree to Turkey joining: The Kurdish question. Human rights abuses and cultural and economic subjugation of the region continues. The Union has never accepted any new members which were committing serious human rights offenses of that magnitude. It is the reason many of the Balkan states have not been accepted yet and it is the reason Belarus, Russia and Turkey would never stand a chance at this point (I am aware that Russia has no interest in joining anyway, but it would not be allowed in if it wanted to join).
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It's the USA that wants Turkey to join the EU!
Cameron is doing what most British PMs end up doing: working for US foreign policy. And easing Turkey away from support of Iran.
Neither France nor Germany wants Turkey to join the EU because the Turks & Armenians are very poor. They'll likley use the EU's policy of 'free movement of labour' to migrate to the higher wage economies of western Europe. Which neither France nor Germany wants.
So Cameron's speech of support for Turkey is a dead letter intended to appease American foreign policy. Cameron knows the other EU States will block Turkey’s applications, so it's nearly a risk-free offer of support. Other members will understand.
I suspect Turkey knows all this. But it helps to keep their 'applicant' status warm. Which is progress of a kind.
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"(Greek army was considerably more powerful than the Turkish until the 1980s)"
So why has ENOSIS failed?
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"I am Greek, I know Turkey's history by heart, I have visited the country numerous times and thus I am the best positioned to speak of Turkey"
Last visit during the Occupation of Izmir [google Wiki] or later?
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65. At 11:41pm on 27 Jul 2010, Unal:
"...Europe will be the beggars in years to come..."
They didn't ask you to participate to EU club nor have the will to do so in the future. You insisted a lot as a country to take a EU participation entry card.
To my opinion Turkey worth nothing to EU as individually, already every EU state cooperate in vital economic, political, social, military and some judicial issues, including Greece and believe me that they need nothing more from you than that.
Exception? US and it’s EU Trojan Horse (Britain) with their terrorist torment and their easy control desire of the middle east and the impairment of the EU, and by so doing, turn the already uncontrolled wolf (turkey) to a Domestic dog (let's say a pit bull)...knowing that in that role, primitive turkey can become an excellent ally against EU due to it's lacking human, economic, political, social, judicial rights and it’s 'excellent unrecognized past' of Armenians, Greeks genocides - last cleansing cases the 1955 Istanbul Pogrom, Cyprus and the Curds.
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#80. At 08:57am on 28 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"1.) I do agree that our fiscal contributions to the E.U. are large. That said, we benefit from the E.U. much more than the E.U.'s largest contributor, Germany, which hardly gets any funding for anything from the E.U. at all."
You should really check your facts Chris, here is an extract from the EU's own financial report for 2008 which is the most recent they've published. The exact figure for EU expenditure on Germany in 2008 is 11,913.8 million Euro as against 7,309.9 million Euro for the UK.
- In absolute terms, France is in 2008 as in 2007 the largest
recipient of EU expenditure ahead of Spain, which was first
in 2003, 2004 and 2005. Germany is in third position as in
2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. Italy is in fourth position, fol-
lowed by Greece.
Poland, which now receives substantial EU cohesion and
agricultural expenditure, is in sixth position as in 2007 (up
from the eighth position in 2005 and 2006), ahead of the
United Kingdom and Belgium (when including administrative expenditure).
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Re #99 Menedemus
Remember that Paris and Berlin were not very eager to welcome the first batch of members from "New Europe" to EU. [ Czechs, Hungarians, Lithuanians, Slovenes, Poles, etc.]
Let alone the 2nd batch (Bulgaria, Romania)
Concerned mostly about their vote influence in Brussels being watered down.
[The then Belgium not being divided yet between the Flemish and Walloons then, and Germany between Ossies and Wessies as badly as now]
No wonder John Major was supporting an expansion of EU.
Pro domo sua.
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#92. At 09:52am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote
"You're correct. PKK terrorists didn't like any democratically elected Turkish government: left-wing or right-wing; religious or secular."
Of course I'm correct the Army there doesn't like any democratically elected Turkish government: left-wing or right-wing; religious or secular:)) I hope soon they get over that particular dislike they have and then of course EU will be an option for them:)
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Re #101 [Economics 101]- "Turkey is an economic, cultural and scientific powerhouse which would be a real asset to the union."
How are you "Europeans" going to get your gas and oil if all crucial oil/gas pipelines from oil/gas rich Turkic states (Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan) if all present or planned pipelines, go through Turkish land or through Turkish territorial waters?
[and Georgia, whose invasion by USSR II you've condoned and accepted]
Wait for the next move b y Mr. Gazputin who has you 'Europeans' firmly by short and curlies.
[Niks the Greeks will of course get all the oil and gas they need from their historically friendly Iranian ayatollahs anyway, right? ;)]
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" Exception? US and it’s EU Trojan Horse (Britain)"
I apologise, being a product of inferior American public schools I always thought that Trojan Horse was Greek.
Timeo Danaes... etc.
[we have only Trojan (brand) condoms]
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I am a strong believer that Mr. Cameron needs to take a step back here and look at whose interests he is really serving. It is true that the US is applying great diplomatic efforts to gain Turkey on a 'friendly side' and it is also true that Turkey's accession may have economic benefits in the long run. Furthermore it would be a serious gain for international relations globally, but the main thing I would be concerned about is what it would do to the European Union. The EU has experienced considerable enlargement in a very short period of time, and we are currently still adjusting to many of these enlargements. I do not believe Europe is ready to take up a state the size of Turkey and this is not even taking national identity, cultural, social and religious issues into consideration. Europe simply needs to work on what it has for the moment.
Finally I would be sceptical of President Gul's words; "that Europeans are at a point where they need to decide whether the Union is a closed entity, whether the current borders of the EU will define it for eternity, or whether it should plan 50 years ahead and think of its grandchildren, the future". I would be of the opinion that these are scare tactic words. Europeans should not rush into anything as this could indeed be make or break for the EU.
To quote Robert Schuman "Europe will not be made all at once, or according to a single plan. It will be built through concrete achievements which first create a de facto solidarity."
It seems to me that Mr. Cameron’s is in fact a single plan.
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Re #98 & "...this is the Prime Minister of a country (Turkey) that 100 years ago..." I rest my case!"
Chancellor Merkel is leader of a country that 60 years ago... across Europe...
President Sarkozy is head of a country that 50 years ago in Algeria...
Berlusconi, Komorowski, Zappatero, Papendreou, Cameron .... leaders of countries that ... years ago...
But, only Turkey's previous grievous conduct is to have that held against it for Membership of the EU!
I rest my case.
The sickening double-standards (at #98 & among others) are too obvious for any other conclusion than that some at the core of EU-Brussels' leadership & some nationalities (or portions) are utterly politically-economically bigoted/prejudiced against Turkey: To an extent that reveals the EU has absolutely no sympathy with its oft proclaimed ideals of 'equality' & 'unity' by collective-shared pan-EUropean movements.
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"In absolute terms, France is in 2008 as in 2007 the largest
recipient of EU expenditure ahead of Spain, which was first
in 2003, 2004 and 2005. Germany is in third position as in
2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. Italy is in fourth position, fol-
lowed by Greece.
Poland, which now receives substantial EU cohesion and
agricultural expenditure, is in sixth position as in 2007 (up
from the eighth position in 2005 and 2006), ahead of the
United Kingdom and Belgium (when including administrative expenditure)"
40 million strong mostly agricultural Poland ahead of mighty Belgium?
Even now? In 2010?
That's outragous!
If i were Flemish I would get out immediately. Out of Walloon Belgium.
[I wonder what mighty Luxemburg thinks about that]
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So what will happen once Turkey joins the EU... based on what has already happened. 1000's will flock across to the UK and the rest of Europe. Local councils will struggle to cope with the sudden influx by means of housing for large Turkish families and schooling. The NHS will also have to cope. Where will the money from all of this come from?
Unemployment. The office of National Statistic reports people of the Muslim faith have the largest unemployment rates in the UK already, with an incredible only 20% of Muslim women actually seeking employment. Unemployment rates for Turkish women has been on the decrease since the 1980's. 'In 2006 there were fewer women participating in the Turkish economy than in any other country in the OECD, or for that matter in Europe and the Central Asian region.'
This is questions of Maths and religion. There is not enough money in the system to support people who have no intention of working due to the religion. It is irrelevant if the male works but the women don't. It means you are giving with one hand and taking with the other.
Would we be bound to tread carefully around issues involving 'Muslims' for fear of offending? Will the Muslim Turks leave their religion at home or encourage the Islamisation of the Europe? These are tough questions which have to be answered. We already have riots in the UK due to religious reasons. It will too late for Cameron to say later, "whoops, i made mistake!"
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from a purely personal perspective [secular british]
tho i'd like to see an EU with a big muslim country in it,
reckon Turkey's better wihout
the Turks are so very much nicer than Europeans [at least to strangers] and deserve to be welcomed everywhere
but having lived in Berlin i have long observed that living in Europe doesn't do their personalities any favours and that you have to get under the germanicised surface to find the Turks you know & love from Turkey
all the Turks met while working and wandering there said to me that they didn't need the EU and didn't want their freedoms curtailed - wanting to be able to grill wherever they want, for example
but i have only made it as far east as Hatay and imagine that, further into the 'shockingly backward, underdeveloped interior' mentioned by ♯35. DLT, anyone impoverished or being persecuted wouldn't mind some agricultural subsidies coming their way or might fall for the Dick Whittington notion of distant London streets paved with gold that poor people are prone to everywhere .
in any case easier travel access to multiple countries is a highly popular notion anywhere that doesn't have the luxury we do
with relation to ♯54. Nik's point 1) :
tho i do not presume to speak about the other lands mentioned since i've never visited them, my recent impression in Syria was that Syrian/Turkish relations were actually pretty positive at the moment
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Chris Camp
Re #80
You described a part ("axis-of-ill-intent", i.e. France-Germany) of my contribution as 'nonsense': Sorry, but if You carer to look at which 2 nations make all the really vital EU decisions, (& contrary to Your assertion, Germany benefits hugely from the EU) plus which 2 nations are dominating the Turkey entry negotiations and putting up all the barriers to it - - then clearly it is Your version of the EU reality that borders on nonsensical.
I am just being kind by describing it as an 'axis-of-ill-intent', the reality is a Diktat.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Cameron decide to choose Ankara; against Berlin and Paris; and expect to be a huge participant in Europe! What a bad choice! Here on the mainland of Europe, we already know the problems coming from important flows of migrants; and we can't afford more! The UK must not forget that we stop a good part of this flow from your country! Just imagine if we didn't!
Turkey is too different a country; to be in the EU! And we can't do it financially. And there's a law in France that impose the question of Turkey's membership of the EU to be comfirmed through a referendum; and we're 3 to 4 against it! So; it will never happen! And if the only choice for the French is to be in the EU with Turkey or out; i really think we'd choose to be out of the EU!
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ChrisArta wrote:
#92. At 09:52am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote
"You're correct. PKK terrorists didn't like any democratically elected Turkish government: left-wing or right-wing; religious or secular."
Of course I'm correct the Army there doesn't like any democratically elected Turkish government: left-wing or right-wing; religious or secular:)) I hope soon they get over that particular dislike they have and then of course EU will be an option for them:)
Chris,
Why would anybody in their right mind want to join EUSSR, when USSR is already kaput?
With even Vilnius being half-free. :-)
P.S. How about those vacations on sunny beaches of Aral Sea?
Any takers in your area?
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109. At 11:26am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"""How are you "Europeans" going to get your gas and oil if all crucial oil/gas pipelines from oil/gas rich Turkic states (Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan) if all present or planned pipelines, go through Turkish land or through Turkish territorial waters?"""
We will simply get gas from Southstream and oil from Russian pipelines and ships.
PM, do you mind?
"""[and Georgia, whose invasion by USSR II you've condoned and accepted]"""
... since Europeans accepted the NATO invasion at Kosovo why would they object Russians do the same in Georgia, where the lifes of their very own citizens were at steak (for your information the Abkhasians and Ossetians are Russian Federation citizens)?
PM, do you mind?
"""Wait for the next move b y Mr. Gazputin who has you 'Europeans' firmly by short and curlies."""
And we have him. Constructing a pipeline ties both sides you know not necessarily the buyer. Russian fortuned depend on European fortunes and that is the best thingie for a close collaboration.
PM, do you mind?
"""[Niks the Greeks will of course get all the oil and gas they need from their historically friendly Iranian ayatollahs anyway, right? ;)]"""
Naah... We never needed any Middle Eastern oil you know. If out country as led by its own people and not foreigners like the kind of Jeffrey and if it had its own decision making, we would just drill the oil in the Aegean.
We should drill it.
PM, do you mind?
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110. At 11:39am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
""""Exception? US and it’s EU Trojan Horse (Britain)"
I apologise, being a product of inferior American public schools I always thought that Trojan Horse was Greek.""""
Correct PM. But Homer has been translated into many other languages, among other, English, so others too try their chance with the specific strategy.
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@ 107 Powermeerkat
"No wonder John Major was supporting an expansion of EU."
100% correct.
As to the Troya horse (that contains a Russian link) within the EU, there are still strong rumors in West Europe that it is not at all Greece that had been enroled with that task, but my country(!?). I strongly reject that lie, but it is not so easy to stop that gossip given the long period of communist rule that was estalished here in the aftermath of WW2.
Regards
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"Berlusconi, Komorowski, Zappatero, Papendreou, Cameron .... leaders of countries that ... years ago..."
Not being Mr. Komorowski's aficionado I happen to recall that his ancestors happened to stop Ottoman Turks at Vienna gates. ;)
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"Cameron decide to choose Ankara; against Berlin and Paris; and expect to be a huge participant in Europe!"
Coud be much worse: a British PM against Berlin-Moscow Axis.
Imagine that.
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"Is there any Turk that can analyse that?"
well, Nik, there was that one from Thessaloniki...
[Although his battle plans are still analyzed in American military academies. [Including West Point and Annapolis]
Just like Marshall Pilsudski's [from Vilnius] battle orders.
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#113. At 11:51am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat,
You seem not to have understood what the figures I quoted refer to, it's expenditure by the EU on a member state, Belgium because it hosts the EU establishment in Brussels got 3880.2 million Euros out of their total 6,107.6 million Euros in 2008 for the EU administration. Likewise concerning Luxembourg they got 1175.3 million euros out of 1408.9 million euros for their EU administration. As for that waste of time Strasbourg it seems the French got 304.6 million euros in 2008 for EU administration costs, now that's a nice little earner isn't it.
From these figures you might like to explain your comment regarding Flanders and Wallonia especially remembering that Brussels is mostly French speaking, is linked with Wallonia politically, and that Brussels generates an awful lot of tax revenue for Flanders from Flemish resident people working in Brussels.
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#119. At 12:07pm on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Why would anybody in their right mind want to join EUSSR, when USSR is already kaput?
With even Vilnius being half-free. :-)"
For that simple reason that it is not a EUSSR, but a dynamic multicultural union of states with very high living standards:) where quality of living does not mean "super-size" burger:))
Vilnius is fully free now:) check again!:)
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110. At 11:39am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"...I apologise, being a product of inferior American public schools..."
Well said. Wise introspection and self-criticism. Apologize accepted.
"...I always thought that Trojan Horse was Greek..."
Not only the Trojan Horse was Greek but also the trojans.
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DanielBr @#118
Your post epitomises all that is wrong with the EU.
If Turkey is admitted to the EU, France will hold a Referendum and even then, if Turkey does still get admitted 'into the Club', you espouse France leaving the EU!
That hypothesis presumes that France, if it holds a Referendum, is not forced to hold more and more Referendums until the result is 'as wanted by the EU' - past experience shows that Referendum which contradict the EU have to be re-run until the original result is overturned or Referendum results are ignored and alternative EU changes are made despite voter rejection.
So much for the concept of a pluralist union of European States working together for the mutual good of all! If it isn’t good for France then it isn’t good for the EU apparently?
And, please believe me, if France elects to leave the EU rather than have Turkey join the EU then one really, really does have to applaud David Cameron's very-far-sighted view that expansion of the EU to include Turkey is a good thing.
The sooner that Turkey joins the EU and the EU returns to being a loose affiliation of trading nations within a "Common Market" rather than a political Hegemony and moves away from it being a private club, run for the sole benefit of Germany and France, the better off all of the Rest of Europe will be.
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PM: on Churchill note that he got 2ice mingled in campaigns in the Aegean - and he seemed to have a particular interest in that.
First, in WWI he lost 200,000 troops at Dardanelles. Then in WWII he managed to send 55,000 (yet ANZAC again...), and lose to 12,000 Germans riding down on their bikes.
What else can I say? Either you consider him a pathetic little man or a cunning strategist for whom the war was not contained in a battlefield but in the game of achieving the right equilibriums.
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" We will simply get gas from Southstream and oil from Russian pipelines and ships.
PM, do you mind?"
Not at all, except.... WHERE are those pipelines?
And where are those Russian tankers?
Can't get through Bosforus?
Because Turks are environmetally friendly? :)
P.S. Perhaps at least "Arctic Sea" could deliver you something?
[since it did not manage to deliver it to your friends- ayatollahs]
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powermeerkat @#124
Or worse still, a Paris-Berlin-Moscow detente?
That accomodation already exists with the concessions granted to Moscow because of the Gas Supply Monopoly and as evidenced by the concessions granted to Russia concerning Georgia. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Georgia's government, part of their country is occupied by Russia and that is accepted as fait accompli in Berlin and Paris.
If it does not suit Germany or France to go up against Russia then the EU will not go up against Russia as that is not what Germany or France want to happen.
Germany and France dictate the policies of the EU regarding Russia whatever way it is glossed over!
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(for your information the Abkhasians and Ossetians are Russian Federation citizens)?
No Nik, it's all Greek to me.
I thought they were citizens of Georgia.
[Until they were granted Russian citizenship on the eve of Russian invasion in order to justify it]
You know that ancient country you Greeks used to sail to for Golden Fleece?
Even before it become Orthodox?
[all animals our equal but swines are more equal than others]
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130 was asnwering the previous thread but still fitting here since it makes an extremely direct and immensly obvious link of the British policies then and today.
All that love of British for the Turks is very moving really. Only that it is not shared by any other European, even the Italians who back then really loved the Turks when killing their orthodox competitors.
There is nothing much to discuss.
let us put aside the 1900-1980 murderous past of the Turks and let us concentrate on the present:
Turkey itself is doing fine alone, it does not have any economic reason to enter the EU.
Europe does not have either any particular interest in Turkey. It will buy its mass of energy from the Southstream which despite US sabotage keeps going on, no need to wait for the Nabucco pipedreams crossing the most amazing line of all the unstable countries from Turkrmenstan to Turkey you can find on the map.
Turkey has 70 millions (out of which 20 million are Kurds) and is quite an industrialised country were Europeans outsouce seeking cheaper hands - why would they want to change that by letting them inside EU (and thus losing the "cheaper")? At the end, they can do that pretty much the same everywhere else in the world. The distance from a Turkish port like Antalya to Rotterdam is pretty much comparable at the distance from Mexico to Rotterdam, hence why not invest for cheaper hands in Mexico?
EU does not need Turkey for energy provision (Turkey did not provide anything for the last 80 years when Europe was depending on Arab oil, now did we remember that it can provide us something?).
Someone has to try really hard to come up with a valid standing point either for Europe to accept Turkey in and for Turkey to want to enter in.
Till now we have the British points: they do not like the EU, they know Turkey will be detrimental to it, thus they want Turkey inside.
But we do not have the clear Turkish point of view: why do they want to enter the EU?
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Funny we haven't heard much from The Macaroon's back bencher Nick Cleggo. What happened to that part of the bloc? Where does he stand on this? Where does he stand on anything? Hey Mr. Clegg, come out come out wherever you are. Maybe he's hiding under the bed hoping the storm will blow over. Come to think of it, I haven't heard any reaction from the UK's "partners" either? Maybe Merkel and Sarkozy are busy with something more important...like washing their socks.
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125. At 12:36pm on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
""""Is there any Turk that can analyse that?"
well, Nik, there was that one from Thessaloniki...""""
I said a Turk, not a Donme (=Ladino-jewish covert to islam).
"""[Although his battle plans are still analyzed in American military academies. [Including West Point and Annapolis]"""
As an example of what to avoid*?
"""Just like Marshall Pilsudski's [from Vilnius] battle orders."""
So famous I had to google him.
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Re #126
Buzet, I don't have horse in this race.
Just like don't have a horse in Catalonia versus Spain race.
or Baskonia versus France race.
Or Ossies versus Wessies German race
Let alone Switzerland versus German tax evaders race.
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@ Nik, honestly you need to stop flogging that dead horse of yours. I am not Turkish. I am British. I am in favour of Turkey joining the E.U., not because I am "Turkish" (what gave you that idea anyway?) but because it is strong, economically, as well as culturally and scientifically.
You are not in a good position to call on Turkey for the fact they once had to go to the IMF. Greece has been a dead weight and a millstone around the E.U.'s neck ever since it entered. The developed economies in France, Germany and Britain cannot even see a strong cultural difference between Turkey and Greece. To us, it is just a case of east Turkey and west Turkey and the western part has got that quaint idea of being somehow "different". The differences, however, are so minute and so negligible that it takes the utmost of concentration and focus on the part of a British or German person to tell the two countries and peoples apart.
Oh and about "retiring" people from northern Cyprus (presumably, you meant evacuating the population) - that is not going to happen, as doing so would be a major crime against those people's human rights.
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At 11:39am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"...I apologise, being a product of inferior American public schools..."
Well said. Wise introspection and self-criticism. Apologize accepted.
"...I always thought that Trojan Horse was Greek..."
Not only the Trojan Horse was Greek but also the trojans.
PM: and Phoenicians. And Macedonians (those from FYROM, ya know?)
And ancient Egyptians. Let alone Persians.
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Mendemus: "The sooner that Turkey joins the EU and the EU returns to being a loose affiliation of trading nations within a "Common Market" rather than a political Hegemony and moves away from it being a private club, run for the sole benefit of Germany and France, the better off all of the Rest of Europe will be."
HEAR, HEAR!
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"Vilnius is fully free now:) check again!:)"
Last time I checked there was a silver plaque left there by Marshall Piłsudzki with an inscription:
"Thank you, Mother of God for Wilno".
[it being a quintenssential Lithuanian city :)]
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It seems that when Cameron went to Washington he was handed the speech he had to read in Turkey. Obama wants to ditch the Israelis so Cameron bashes them. Obama is emerging as either an appeaser to Islam or - as many Muslims now see him - as a Muslim himself. Either way, Cameron has to support Turkey's entry into the EU, as a reliable bridge.
By the way - was that the BNP flag just behind Cameron in the photograph, the one we are not supposed to fly from our homes?
And can we have a referendum on further changes to the EU?
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# 131. At 1:06pm on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
" We will simply get gas from Southstream and oil from Russian pipelines and ships.
PM, do you mind?"
"""Not at all, except.... WHERE are those pipelines?"""""
It will come PM, don't be impatient. It will come no matter what the US thinks about it.
"""And where are those Russian tankers?"""
They will come too when people will start preferring the cheaper and more stable Russia than the overly expensive Middle East or the Nabucco pipedreams. Don't be impatient.
"""Can't get through Bosforus?
Because Turks are environmetally friendly? :)"""
Turks' interest in the environment is as joke as our (and anyone's else) interest for the environment. Commercial ships have a free passage through Bosphorus. The commercial traderoute is just being established after the pathetic effort of the US in Ukraine and Georgia and there is nothing to stop it. Nontheless I do repeat my prediction for a provocated accident in Bosphorus (either an oil carrier or a cargo loaded with chemicals) which might have human victims on top of the catastrophe.
"""P.S. Perhaps at least "Arctic Sea" could deliver you something?"""
Us? Despite the successive hits since the 1970s Greek magnates have still the biggest commercial fleet, under differnt flags of course since you minded the Greek magnates having ours,
The Arctic Sea therefore is not needed. However it can deliver your much needed drugs to you if you like.
"""[since it did not manage to deliver it to your friends- ayatollahs]"""
What is your problem with the Ayatollahs? They are there you are on the other side of the world. Tell me, is it some kind of psychologic pathology? Do you fear bearded men or something? Everythign alright in your younger age? (aaa... don't get mad, I am joking, don't take it literaly!)
# 132. At 1:07pm on 28 Jul 2010, Menedemus wrote:
"""That accomodation already exists with the concessions granted to Moscow because of the Gas Supply Monopoly and as evidenced by the concessions granted to Russia concerning Georgia. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Georgia's government, part of their country is occupied by Russia and that is accepted as fait accompli in Berlin and Paris."""
Did not see you being so sensitive to Kosovo?
Serbia in Kosovo had sent police to keep down local mafias, not to ethnically cleanse Kosovars. They were forced to send in lowly armed military units to bring back order when the situation went out of control thanks to the re-arment of local Kosovars by US forces.
Georgia on the other hand had since the early 90s a conscious plan of ethnically cleansing the Abkhasians. They refused to recognise their presence in the country and refused to give them the Georgian nationality
on the basis of not speaking well the Georgian language. Easily the most racist policy inside any European country but then EU has already accepted well the Latvian fascist state that treats the 52% of its population (Russians) like 3rd rate citizens using racist laws that enforce social and often even citizenship exclusion.
"""If it does not suit Germany or France to go up against Russia then the EU will not go up against Russia as that is not what Germany or France want to happen."""
Right. Good thing they do. Nobody else did order whole lines of military ships and 100s of trains and airplanes. Get it?
"""Germany and France dictate the policies of the EU regarding Russia whatever way it is glossed over!"""
Good for them. If Britain does not like, it can still try playing with Turkey. Nobody hinders them. We can make it more easy for Britain by letting them out of the EU (anyway that is also the democratic wish of the bulk of British people).
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144 messages and stil....we do not have the clear Turkish point of view:
Why do Turks want to enter the EU so much?
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Re #132 Menedemus (who seems to have a good memory):
I recall that in August of 1939 certain French cabaret artist by the name of Maurice Chevalier sang: "Who wants to die for Gdansk?"
He was of course right.
It turned out the French were not ready to die even for Paris, turning France instead into a huge Wermacht R&R facility (to put it midly.)
BTW. The first liberator of Paris was a certain half-drunk American war correspondent by the name of Ernest Hemingway.
Eisenhower was ready to court-martial him per de Gaulle's request; however he cheched his CV and figured it would not be too good for his political prospects.
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A lot of folks seem to be pondering over the question why is Turkey so insistent on full EU membership. Why would they pursue this goal so stubbornly, if they can do quite well without it (ostensibly)? This is the million $ question and it is a complex one indeed. There are two main reasons
Turkey views EU membership sa a total, no-fail, 1000% guarantee for its own survival and existence in the long term. Historically, Turkey views the European countries as plotting agaist it, as intent on undermining and eventually destroying Turkey, or at least pushing is out of the continent. If Turkey were to become a full mamber, this would neutralize the European countries, once and for all. Not only that, this would allow Turkey to use Europe's clout and resources to further its own ambitions and goals. It may sound strange that Turkey feels threatened, but despite its relatively large size and population (as compared to EU countries) it has a number of weaknesses and is well aware of them.
Firstly, there is the Kurdish issue. At present, about 15-20% of its 75 million population are ethnic Kurds. Not only is this a very high percentage, but it will get much worse since the demographics are not in favor of the Turks - the birthrate among the Kurdish minority is MUCH higher than that of ethnic Turks. Generally, the birthrate of the ethnic Turks is a bit higher than the average in the EU, while that of the Kurds is explosive, similar to the birthrates of the Middle Eastern countries.The Kurds are slowly, but steadily pushing from the South East towards cantral Anatolian plateau, the Turkish hinterland, the heart of Turkey. Again, many regions in Anatolia are becoming depopulated by Turks, because of the migration of ethnic Turks to the big multi million cities, such as Istanbul and Ankara, etc. Kurds are also becoming a serious presence in the major cities. If because of this demograpfic timebomb the Kurds were eventually to manage to take over the Anatolian heartland, this will spell the end of Turkey as we know it. We are not talking short term here, but mid-to-long term (decades or more). Sounds far fetched and unlikely - but that is how long it took the Turks themselves in 11-14 centuries to do the same thing, squeezing out the local, mostly Greek and Armenian populations. Look at the map - Asia Minor, Aatolia is like a sack and if a new ethnic entity starts pushing from the East and South East, the previous inhabitants of the hinterland have very few options (if they cannot repulse the push militarily).
The two ethnic groups, Turks and Kurds, have a long history of hostility and decades of bloody conflict. It is becoming increasingly difficult for the Turkish state to deal with the Kurds in the old, tried and tested way - by slaughtering them. Since the world is no longer bi-polar, the Western countries, even the US, would find it very difficult to look the other way, if the Turkish military try to suppress the Kurds like they did for decades in the past. Another development, further complicating the issue is the emergence of a virtually, in all but name independent Kurdistan in Iraq, and the Kurds there are flush with oil/gas money, and will remain so. Turkey is eztremely worried by the new reality there and the US intentions in Iraqi Kurdistan. Also, virtually all existing and projected oil and gas pipelines pass via Kurdish regions in Turkey. Truth be told, the Turkish government has recently tried to soften and modify its policy towards the Kurds, yealding to some of their demands, but this has proven mostly counterproductive. Agai, if Turkey manages to get into the EU, this would alleviate the demographics problem significantly, since the majority of the millions of projected economic emigrants, who will flood the West, would be Kurds, fleeing poverty and oppression.
The second big reason for Turkey to strive to be a EU member is mostly economic - despite its size, and the progress it has made for the last 30 or so years, Turkey remains an underdeveloped country, and what is more, is very dependent on the West (the EU and USA) as regards new technology and capital. Turkey has indeed a vibrant economy which is growing fast at present, but it is dependent on the good will of the West, and on the good relations with the West. To put it simply, right now, if it wants to continue to develop economically, Turkey has to be relatively nice with the EU and the US even if it does not like it. A potential entry in the EU would make Turkey a PART of the West, an equal, even privilleged player, which would be able to focus an enormous portion of the financial and technological resources of Europe and use them for its own purposes. Basically, Turkey wants to achieve its geopolitical (regional and even global) goals, using the resources of old adversaries and rivals, in return for next to nothing. Or, at least, that's the plan.
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CC;
" I am in favour of Turkey joining the E.U., not because I am "Turkish" (what gave you that idea anyway?) but because it is strong, economically, as well as culturally and scientifically."
So is China. Perhaps China should join with Turkey and Inda to form a pan-Asian Union. Europe wanted a multipolar world, that would be one hell of a new pole to challenge to what's little power and influence the EU actually has.
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Greece is not a secular state and she was allowed to join the EU.
So why not Turkey???
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To Nick the Greek
Nik, you don't know s...everal things about Turks.
Turks are a nation, but they are not an ehtnic group.
Since they moved to the currently occupied area they've merged with quite a few other etnic groups: Bulgars, Circassians, Dagestanis, Kurds, Laz, Serbs, British Crusadors, even [sic] Vikings.
It would be hard to find a "pure blood" Turk (or Kurd) in Turkey nowadays, unless some Greek would like to apply Nurnberg racial purity Laws.[ but then even Mr. Hitler would not pass the muster.]
BTW., Present day Greeks have about as much in common with ancient Greeks as present day Egyptians have in common with the ancient ones, or present day Peruvians with ancient Inkas.
Namely: NOTHING!
Well, sorry 'bout that. ;(
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Just like Marshall Pilsudski's [from Vilnius] battle orders."""
Nik the Greek : "So famous I had to google him."
Of course you would.
Battle of Warsaw not being as popular in your country as Battle of Vienna.
For obvious reasons. :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS B-A-A-A-A-A-A-D! ("The Animal Farm")
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Chris Camp wrote:
"Oh and about "retiring" people from northern Cyprus (presumably, you meant evacuating the population) - that is not going to happen, as doing so would be a major crime against those people's human rights."
And quite unrealistic since a retirement age in UE is being increased (for obvious reasons) both in civilian and military sectors.
EVEN in GREASE!
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MarcusAureliusII @#135
ROTFLMBO
... Maybe Merkel and Sarkozy are busy with something more important...like washing their socks.
It paints a picture that could not be described more succinctly.
Maybe they are or maybe they ain't busy washing socks together but they're not going to wash their socks in public ... they are too afraid of being called as witnesses before the Grand Inquisitors of the USA (otherwise known as a Senate Committee) to have American oversight and approval of any decisions they make or may have made such as which soap powder to use, "scrub and rinse" or just "soak and rinse". Heaven help them if they tumble-dry when there is plenty of fresh air to blow the socks dry!
These days, one never knows if the American Government might want to investigate another country's political decisions and call other national politicians over to the good 'ole US of A to be given a Senate Shampoo, haircut and made to wear sackcloth and ashes.
As an aside, there actually appears to be a new US connotation on "Stonewalling" - its a Johnny Foreigner not wanting American Senator to supervise washing of socks in public in the USA!
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The Future of Turkey is outside the EU.
Even though the EU is a major trading partner I do not think the majority of my fellow Turks would want to be seen as a puppet bowing to the whims of the Germans and snotty nosed French.
Come on holiday by all means, but leave us alone to expand our economy by 11% a year
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"The Arctic Sea therefore is not needed. However it can deliver your much needed drugs to you if you like."
Ooops , a major mistake.
"Arctic Sea" was supposed to deliver S-400 missile system to your friends, Iranian ayatollahs.
Exxcept minute Israel gave almighty Russia an ultimatum.
And "Finnish wood" (an official AC's cargo according to its manifesto) was flown (not sailed - flown!) back to Moscow.
Well, sorry 'bout that. :-)))
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#141. At 2:01pm on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote
"Last time I checked there was a silver plaque left there by Marshall Piłsudzki with an inscription:
"Thank you, Mother of God for Wilno".
[it being a quintenssential Lithuanian city :)]"
Perfectly free town, with correct name, that leaves no doubt what you get:))
I'm impressed they let him use "W":)) he should really thank "Mother of God":))
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@ MarcusAureliusII, that might be a good idea, but at this point, China reckons it is strong enough on its own. Turkey would be better off in Europe, as Europe does not face the kind of demographic meltdown that China is about to go through. True, there is a very bad generational imbalance coming Europe's way, but that is like nothing compared to what China is going to have to go through in ten years' time. I would refer you the cover story "gendercide" in one of the recent Economist issues.
Also, do not underestimate the EU's strength. Its GDP is higher than that of the U.S. and the two main driving motors of the EU (France and Germany) seem to be getting through the current world economic crisis much better than many of the other big economies around the world. I do understand your basic hostility towards Europe - I think it's quaint and very amusing, but let's stick with the facts: the EU remains a force to be reckoned with.
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Since no Turk, pro-Turk wished to answer, the answer by DLT comes to complete the blank.
146. At 2:16pm on 28 Jul 2010, DLT wrote:
Great analysis. Simply superb. I have long ended doing such ones since none ever cared here (you will find the other side simply will change issue to avoid the hot issues you pint pointed in each of your phrases).
"""Firstly, there is the Kurdish issue. At present, about 15-20% of its 75 million population are ethnic Kurds. Not only is this a very high percentage, but it will get much worse since the demographics are not in favor of the Turks - the birthrate among the Kurdish minority is MUCH higher than that of ethnic Turks."""
Haha...
"""The Kurds are slowly, but steadily pushing from the South East towards cantral Anatolian plateau, the Turkish hinterland, the heart of Turkey. Again, many regions in Anatolia are becoming depopulated by Turks, because of the migration of ethnic Turks to the big multi million cities, such as Istanbul and Ankara, etc. Kurds are also becoming a serious presence in the major cities."""
Hoho...
"""Sounds far fetched and unlikely"""
Not at all.
"""It is becoming increasingly difficult for the Turkish state to deal with the Kurds in the old, tried and tested way - by slaughtering them."""
They heve tested it on Kurds too though not as extensively as on christians (who were completely unarmed and urbanised and thus were easier targets). It did not work.
"""Since the world is no longer bi-polar, the Western countries, even the US, would find it very difficult to look the other way, if the Turkish military try to suppress the Kurds like they did for decades in the past. """
Why do you think Turkey is getting back to islam with the blessings of US and UK?
"""Another development, further complicating the issue is the emergence of a virtually, in all but name independent Kurdistan in Iraq, and the Kurds there are flush with oil/gas money, and will remain so. Turkey is eztremely worried by the new reality there and the US intentions in Iraqi Kurdistan. Also, virtually all existing and projected oil and gas pipelines pass via Kurdish regions in Turkey."""
Very securised project I see. And Cameron wishes to sell us this project eh?
"""Truth be told, the Turkish government has recently tried to soften and modify its policy towards the Kurds, yealding to some of their demands, but this has proven mostly counterproductive."""
Yes yes, now they can talk their language. Great success!! And they are not anymore described as "mountainous Turks".
"""Again, if Turkey manages to get into the EU, this would alleviate the demographics problem significantly, since the majority of the millions of projected economic emigrants, who will flood the West, would be Kurds, fleeing poverty and oppression."""
Ah!!!! Who was talking of Turkey pushing illegal immigration into EU? Well well...
"""The second big reason for Turkey to strive to be a EU member is mostly economic - despite its size, and the progress it has made for the last 30 or so years, Turkey remains an underdeveloped country, and what is more, is very dependent on the West (the EU and USA) as regards new technology and capital."""
Those who know know. A factory or two do not transform necessarily a society. Indonesia has several times the industry Turkey has, yet it has also large parts of its population living still in stone age conditions. Turkey is not an excemption to that.
"""Turkey has indeed a vibrant economy which is growing fast at present, but it is dependent on the good will of the West, and on the good relations with the West."""
Absolutely.
"""To put it simply, right now, if it wants to continue to develop economically, Turkey has to be relatively nice with the EU and the US even if it does not like it."""
Yet they have the nerve to demand things on top. Well Cameron backs them up well in that.
"""Basically, Turkey wants to achieve its geopolitical (regional and even global) goals, using the resources of old adversaries and rivals, in return for next to nothing. Or, at least, that's the plan."""
Well this last one pretty much says everything:
Turkey is bound to be an aggressive state tied to its expansionist policies. It cannot survive without violence inside and outside it.
Last thing we need is having to be occupied with them. Let them do their job at shorting out their mess with the Kurds and let us do our job at sorting out our financial mess created out of lack of a clear geostrategic scope.
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149. At 2:24pm on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
To Nick the Greek
Nik, you don't know s...everal things about Turks.
"""Turks are a nation, but they are not an ehtnic group."""
Ok, what you tell me is they are a bunch of random people gathered under the islamic banner and named by Kemal as Turks. We say the same thing but your lack of reading comprehension hinders you in understanding this.
"""BTW., Present day Greeks have about as much in common with ancient Greeks as present day Egyptians have in common with the ancient ones, or present day Peruvians with ancient Inkas.
Namely: NOTHING!"""
Really? What were ancient Greeks according to you? Abba-like blonds? Or
Yoko-ono like Mongols? Ohh... they were Mediterraneans? And who are Mediterraneans? Croatians perhaps? Slovenians? Albanians perhaps? Perhaps Morrocans? Well no.
Who are described as Mediterraneans?
Hmmm.... Eastern Spanish, South Italians, Greeks, a small part of coastal Turks (less than 10% of the population), a small part of Libanese, some of Palestinians, an extremely small part of Egyptians...
... i.e. the only nation fully described as Mediterraneans are modern Greeks.
Right.
And from there one anyone that looks like Greek.
Funnily, eve today only those who fall in the ancient centers of Hellenism around the Mediterranean manage to look like Greeks.
""""Well, sorry 'bout that. ;("""
No, we are sorry for having been such handsome men and so popular among women and having reproduced millenia ago around our jacuzzi-sea the Mesogeios.
I almost want to apologise for being linked to ancient Greeks but I can't do anything. I was born like that. I am not responsible for it. Don't be racist against me.
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As an aside, there actually appears to be a new US connotation on "Stonewalling" - its a Johnny Foreigner not wanting American Senator to supervise washing of socks in public in the USA!
Menedemus, it may suprise you, but in some part of US (e.g. Virginia)
"Stonewall" Jackson is not much more popular than certain Sherman fellow.
[not everybody in the US is a Yank!]
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"FROM MY COLD HANDS!"
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138. At 1:53pm on 28 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"""@ Nik, honestly you need to stop flogging that dead horse of yours. I am not Turkish. I am British. I am in favour of Turkey joining the E.U., not because I am "Turkish" (what gave you that idea anyway?) but because it is strong, economically, as well as culturally and scientifically.""""
What gave you the idea that Turkey is
1) strong?
2) financially sound?
3) cultural
4) scientific?
I am still searching for it in a country that 10 years back was in the IMF, in a completely unstable country that is sitting on the Kurd's demographic bomb and in a country where even the slightest of research or even using the "wrong words" can insult "turkishness" and can lead you to jail and even death.
"""You are not in a good position to call on Turkey for the fact they once had to go to the IMF."""
Once? 10-15 years back they were still there. You can't jump up after than unless someone else has let you to do so.
"""Greece has been a dead weight and a millstone around the E.U.'s neck ever since it entered."""
Correct but that is how the EU, namely Germany and then France and Britain wanted it in the first place. They have to sort out first their priorities before start complaining.
"""The developed economies in France, Germany and Britain cannot even see a strong cultural difference between Turkey and Greece."""
Actually, Germans and British mention this only when they want to insult Greeks while French who as partially Mediterranean feel more close to Greeks do not do so. It goes withoutsaying that with that behaviour Germans and British actually openly state they consider Turks as a disgraceful nation. Not my words. Theirs.
"""To us, it is just a case of east Turkey and west Turkey and the western part has got that quaint idea of being somehow "different"."""
Haha... you use Turkey as an insult too? Did not expect that from you. Do you condiser your Turkish links as inferior? Shame on you!
"""The differences, however, are so minute and so negligible that it takes the utmost of concentration and focus on the part of a British or German person to tell the two countries and peoples apart."""
Speak for youself. Germans are actually very precise when they can make out all the Turks with whom they have huge problems and distinguish aside the Greeks (who are 15 times less than Turks in Germany and according to you should be invisible inside the millions of Turks!!!) with whom they have not the slightest of problems.
"""Oh and about "retiring" people from northern Cyprus (presumably, you meant evacuating the population) - that is not going to happen, as doing so would be a major crime against those people's human rights."""
Oh Chris, how many times you have to lie to hide from the reality?
Turkish muslims priot to 1950 did not represent more than the 4%-5% of the island's population which was overwhelmingly Greek (with sprinkles of Maronites, Jewish and of course the British colonialists). Due to their traditional 3world like demographics, they increased to 8%-10% in the 1960s. By 1974 that went up to a maximum 12% thus Greeks being around 700,000 and muslims being around 80,000.
At the census of 2006 there were about 778,700 Greeks on the island. There was calculated that the amount of Turkish Cypriots had to be a bit less than 90,000 (while they had booming demograhics a number of them have emigrated just like thousands of Greek Cypriots in the past decades).
However, the population of the occupied northern part is certainly not 90,000 but around 250,000 people and in that the Turkish military is excluded (265,00 actually were measured recently by Turks).
The 150,000 more people are simply Turkish mainland emigrants who rushed to get free houses of the ethnically cleansed Greeks. They are illegal settlers occupying property that is not theirs.
They took the houses, the cars, they enterred inside and slept on the beds of the evicted Greeks. They fed their children with the feeding bottles the Greek babies were fed only months ago. They gave their children the toys of Greek children and told them it was them that gave them to them.
That is the story Chris. Are you proud of your lot?
It is all about settlers. And you like them. You support their right to loot and occupy other peoples' lands. while even Turkish Cypriots hate them. Absolutely hate them. They are ashamed of them and they openly express that to Greek Cypriots who only call for the return to normality:
1) Turks retire their troops and apologise for all crimes done.
2) Property is given to the rightful owners, i.e. Greeks return to their places in norther Cyprus and muslims spread around in their inland villages while settlers go back to Turkey and sort it out with their state.
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Re: #152
Maybe it's beginning to dawn on little tantrum-throwers across the water that they don't have nearly as much clout as they thought they did. It must be quite a shock to the system for a political class who have grown terribly used to bullying their way through international law, and having their traditional allies dancing to their tune.
MAII. Didn't fancy responding to my reply in the previous thread, no? I can't say I blame you. I could tell by the change in your tone you knew you'd been throwing large, jagged rocks near your own glasshouse.
You still haven't expressed exactly why you hold the entire continent of Europe in such contempt, beyond making childish snipes. Would that be due to the impossibility of translating your bizarre inferiority complex into sentiments suitable for a political blog for adults?
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CC I was being facetious about China, India, and Turkey. Do you really think China and India want a union with an Islamic state, especially one that is giving up its secularism any more than Europe does? Turkey's culture and politics are incompatible with the EU's for many reasons, its Islamic culture being only one of them.
You can paste enough small countries together on paper and call them a union but the EU is still an army of midgets fighting among themselves. I don't think the US has much to worry about insofar as Europe's challenge is concerned. All it has to do is recognize that Europe is a competitor and compete against it like it wants to win. That's what we used to do. The financial crisis we precipitated may help us out in the war against Europe despite ourselves.
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Re: 129,
Menedemus,
I believe you are on to something. Let us have two options- One EU, run as you say by France and Germany, and another – and Anglo-Turkish trading block or commonwealth. Then we can see how many countries join one or the other.
If the Eurovision song contest voting is anything to go by, this commonwealth will have only two members.
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#159. At 2:55pm on 28 Jul 2010, Nik wrote
"No, we are sorry for having been such handsome men and so popular among women and having reproduced millenia ago around our jacuzzi-sea the Mesogeios.
I almost want to apologise for being linked to ancient Greeks but I can't do anything. I was born like that. I am not responsible for it. Don't be racist against me"
ha ha ha :))))) I can see from the above that you are sensitive (NOT) to negative comments:))
The fact that PM made that statement it is 100% certain that the opposide is true:))
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The hell with moral values - UK is looking once again for commercial benefits.
------------------
1:On the reception of the Lockerbie bomber in Libya, Kaddafi son words to the bomber read by a mouth movement expert were that:
**his freedom was on the economical negotiations with UK**
2: Ms Cameron is playing the same type of UK policy once again
What are the secreat benefits Ms Cameron is hoping from Islamists?
3:Is Ms Cameron advocating an Islamist regime member in EU?
Turkey is not anymore the secular Ataturk country
Erdugan evolution is transforming Turkey in an Islamic country
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102.leftie wrote: It's the USA that wants Turkey to join the EU!
The USA was behind the creation of what is now the EU. The European Federalist Movement, up to the 1970s, received near all its funding from the American State Department and the CIA. Do you think its a coincidence the EU has so many policies that SME's cannot afford but corporations can? Corporations use the EU as a tool to try and thwart any upstart company from getting 'too big'.
98.Nik wrote: No, of course muslims do not commit genocide as the word does not exist in their language: they commit massive slaughters of infidels but infidels do not count for human beings according to muslims.
The quran was largely based on the bible's old testament. But there are some small yet significant differences. A bible commandment says 'thou shalt not kill', in the quran it is 'thou shalt not kill another muslim'. Quite usually the recruitment effort to islam fails to mention those last two words, yet they make all the difference. Same for 'thou shalt not steal', that becomes 'thou shalt not steal from another muslim'.
65.Unal wrote: I hope they do the same for the palestians... And as for the Kurds who are armed by the isrealis and the Greeks who also provide the propaganda, keep on trying.
The Kurds claim to a nation state of their own is far more legitimate than the 'Palestinean' claim is. Only Turkish oppression prevents it, but that won't last much longer.
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74.cool_brush_work wrote: As an 'anti-EU' I enjoy this debacle whatever its outcome
As long as the outcome isn't 'Turkey in EU and France/Germany better off because of it' so will I.
Incidentally, all those 'pro-EU' (opposed to Turkey) and indeed anyone familiar with Maastricht's details & the Single Union must know Turkey's application is entirely within the framework of acceptability.
I don't care what the Maastricht Treaty says, like all other treaties functioning in the creation of the EU as it is now (with a measure of political integration) it is illegitimate and there is no popular mandate for the creation of a new layer of government (which the EU essentially is, albeit in embryonic form).
Consequently, I hope Turkey gains admittance, but confess the day the negotiations finally collapse will not from a UK/England viewpoint be all that bad. It may well give the PM after Cameron (it'll take 10 years for Turkey to get the hostile message from Paris-Berlin) all the excuse needed to go to the British Public with a Referenda on membership.
Increasingly, same is holding true for Netherlands. We are tired of paying for all those other corrupt countries who refuse to get their house in order. Sooner we are out the better. In fact, sooner the EU is disbanded, the better for all (except EU politicians).
Of course the latter scenario will be a tragedy for Europe: A disillusioned & probably ultra-Islamic giant nation on its south-east doorstep, the never-ending Cyprus divide, the likelihood of Turkey supporting promotion of radical Islam inside the EU, the 'loist' immense & developing internal market that Turkey offers, and instead a huge & very competitive non-EU Economy on its doorstep...
The EU may never recover from such a mistake.
I sure hope the EU doesn't. And its precisely the point. We want the EU to fail so we'll do everything we have to, to make sure it does. If they keep refusing to listen to the voters, then we'll keep undermining it. As far as I am concerned, a state of war exists between the EU and its elites one one side and the peoples on the other. There may be no occupying troops this time, but it sure is an illegal occupation (of our national governments and parliaments).
In 20 years time Turkey's 'young' population will be middle aged whilst Europe's old guard will have started dying off. The situation will ultimately reverse itself again and again.
Oh, and Turkey is essentially a dirt poor country apart from a few areas called Istanbul and Ankara (+ surrounding, and of course tourist areas). Believe me, keeping Turkey out is tbe best option even if the EU somehow keeps existing.
The probability a UK/England Government masy also finally conclude that the stagnant-stifling Paris-Brussels-Berlin cabal really will only countenance their avaricious political-economic interests at whatever cost to the rest of the EU: Inspiration for UK & perhaps others to get out from under Brussels...
I look forward to this day of liberation from foreign rule.
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powermeerkat @#160
I do appreciate your mentioning that niot all Americans are Rednecks.
Please believe me when I say that I feel more akin to the United States of America than I do the Untied (and that is, unusaully for me a deliberate misspelling!) States of Europe but, nevertheless, I have to say they the US Senator Robert Mendez seems to have found himself a new role as Global Scrutineer of Every Other Nations Political Decisions - his efforts may be directed at victmising BP for the harm that BP may (or may not!) be responsible for but he is evidencing real Redneck Tendencies in thinking that the American Way is the ONLY way!
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Turkey's accession would mean the end of a truly united Europe. NOT because of some (debatable) threat from Islam as such, but because many Europeans will lose all faith in the European project. Cameron knows what he is doing when he is pushing for Turkey's membership. With Turkey inside, the EU will be a much more loose club, one drawn together just by economy and market - exactly the Tories' idea of the EU. Turkey as a EU member is a guarantee that there will never be "an ever closer union".
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Once in Office, elected officials are possessed BY their new Joyride.
A milestone passes whereby that possession shifts to their obsession for IT. The Potential muslim ghetto issue is that milestone for Cameron. He soundly ignored the threat whilst campaigning.
He knew British common sense would have rejected him big time. Now he's passionate about it. What a joke.
It's a short-sighted hope for Economic stimulus, an absolute imperative for re-election; his operational master.
Bringing Turkey in would be a massive shot of Disunity into the 'united' arm of Europe.
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In the discussion above problems of European identity and the nationalist claims to some territories have been mentioned. Interestingly, it is worth noting that over the centuries the Greeks mixed with the Slavs whose influx to southern Europe occurred in the second millennium, but they don't really take that into account (more on this issue in "Europe. A History" by a Welsh historian Norman Davies). It seems we are all much more interrelated than we all think.
As for Vilnius, many Lithuanians still find it hard to accept that until WWII it was a Polish city (and many especially older Poles still pine for the romantic pre-war Wilno). The reality of intra-European relations, claims and stereotypes is already incredibly complex and I can't imagine what it will be like if Turkey joins the EU.
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"but that is how the EU, namely Germany and then France and Britain wanted it in the first place."
oh, yes that's right. I completely forgot that Greeks never had any say in Greece's history. They never had any part of it at all. It's been the nasty British, Germans, Turks, unicorns, klingons and martians that have been getting Greece up those dire straits.
It's such a convenient excuse - it's everybody else's fault!
Enough of this nonsense. Greeks have their own country. Their fate has been theirs to forge all along and, sadly, too many of them decided to turn Greece into a squalid little dump and call it a "civilisation", due to the fact that some ancient civilisation used to exist there.
As to northern Cyprus - you can call them "immigrants", "settlers", "invaders", in fact, call them "chopped chicken" if you like, I don't care. The fact of the matter is that most have been there for the best part of 60 years. A great many of them were born and died exactly where they are right now - in Northern Cyprus. For better or for worse, it is their homw now, and asking them to leave would be asking them to abandon their homeland.
Would it be right to ask Americans to leave America and return to where ever their ancestors came from? No it would not only be immoral, it would be impractcable.
Would it be right to ask Russians to abandon most of their country and return to the marshes east of Kiev?? Immoral and impractcable.
Would it be right to ask Israelis to leave "Palestine" and return to the societies that had been oppressing them for centuries? Deeply immoral and absolutely not feasable.
The people of Northern Cyprus belong to Northern Cyprus. All calls for ethnic cleansing must be repudiated. Any attempt at ethnically cleansing Cyprus, or Kosovo or parts of Georgia must be confronted and stopped.
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@159 Nik
Don't play the race card... you might lose the game...
"Who are described as Mediterraneans?
... i.e. the only nation fully described as Mediterraneans are modern Greeks.
Right."
* WRONG,
not sure why you limit Italy to the south, but I miss Cyprus in your list... and Malta... as you referred to "nations"
"And from there one anyone that looks like Greek.
Funnily, eve today only those who fall in the ancient centers of Hellenism around the Mediterranean manage to look like Greeks."
* YES,
like Greeks prior to the Ottoman invasion, since then Greeks look more like Turks...
Don't scratch a Greek too much, you might find a Turk underneath...
"No, we are sorry for having been such handsome men..."
* YES,
until they are 30, then they become FAT and UGLY. Something must go wrong then in the Greek family...
powermeerkat wrote: "BTW., Present day Greeks have about as much in common with ancient Greeks as present day Egyptians have in common with the ancient ones, or present day Peruvians with ancient Inkas.
Namely: NOTHING!"
Nik wrote: "Really? What were ancient Greeks according to you? Abba-like blonds? Or Yoko-ono like Mongols? Ohh... they were Mediterraneans?"
* Nik,
not sure why you didn't stop after "Abba-like Blonds" You were so close... so close...
So let's see... ABBA, Turkish or Slave... and your preference is...?
SKELETAL ANALYSIS REVEALS RACIAL NATURE OF HELLENIC SOCIETY
One of the most complete studies ever undertaken of racial types in Ancient Hellas was done by the American anthropologist J. L. Angel, who performed an extensive survey of all ancient Greek crania.
Angel (1944), calculated that during the Classical period of Greek history (650-150 BC), 27% of the Greek population had been predominantly Nordic in type.
This is perfectly in line with other observations, which have determined that the Hellenic population consisted of two, possibly three elements initially: Nordics, Mediterraneans and Alpine types. Only later were non-European elements introduced, mainly through the importation of slaves.
HELLENIC IDEAL WAS NORDIC
Indeed, the Greek orator Dio of Prusa noted that the Greek ideal of beauty was a Nordic one. The Greeks, he said, admired the blond Achilles, but thought that the barbarian Trojan Hector, was black-haired. [Günther (1956).]
In his "Argonautica," the Greek poet Apollonius Rhodius, describes the hero Jason, and all fifty of the Argonauts, as blond-haired. [Sieglin (1935).]
When the heroine Electra, in Euripides' play of that name, finds a lock of her brother Orestes' hair, on the grave of their father Agamemnon, she can tell that it is his hair, because of its distinctive blond color. [Ridgeway (1909).]
The poet Bacchylides said that the women of Sparta were blonde, and Dicaearchus said much the same thing about the women of Thebes. [Gunther (1956).]
For the Greeks, the most beautiful woman who ever lived, Helen, was a blond, as were those mythical men such as Adonis, who were famed for their handsomeness.
WHERE THE HELLENIC RACE HAS BEEN KEPT PURE
In the 4th Century AD, the Jewish physician Adamantios, described what he called the "true Greek" – or where the “Hellenic race has been kept pure” as follows:
"Wherever the Hellenic and Ionic race has been kept pure, we see proper tall men of fairly broad and straight build, neatly made, of fairly light skin and blond; the flesh is rather firm, the limbs straight, the extremities well made. The head is of middling size, and moves very easily; the neck is strong, the hair somewhat fair, and soft, and a little curly; the face is rectangular, the lips narrow, the nose straight, and the eyes bright, piercing, and full of light; for of all nations the Greek has the fairest eyes." [Günther (1927)]
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"I don't think the US has much to worry about insofar as Europe's challenge is concerned"
Of course not. This is mainly because of the fact that Europe has no ambition to challenge the U.S. Europeans like myself would like Europe to co-operate with the U.S. But I can see why Americans like you get frustrated with many of us Europeans. It's not that we try to challenge America. What's bothering you is that Europe increasingly ignores America.
This is regrettable, as I think Europe and America could be assets to each other.
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Thanks for the appreciation, Nik. As you may have already guessed, I am from the same region - the counthry to the North/Northeast of Greece...:-). So, WE have first hand experience, I guess...my best regards to you, too!
Just a few additional thuoghts.
With regards to the Kurdish issue - it does not mean that Turkey is doomed, or that it will disappear. Of course not. But since the big European players (France&Germany,mainly)are well aware of it, Turkey will not be granted entry, untill it sorts this out. Then there is the Cyprus issue...etc. In order to sort this out, however, Turkey will have to virtually re-define its very identity - from a fervently nationalistic,nation-state, to a country where two ethnic entities coexist and participate on equal terms. I am rather sceptical about that, since there historically, Turkey has been unable to do it, on various occasions. Moreover, nationalism, be it in secular, or islamist dress, is actually on the ascendant there. The neo-Ottoman aspirations/ambitions (of which Mr. Davutoglu is just the most recent spokesman) are quickly becoming the official policy. It is those ambitions, and not the predicament of Gaza that were actually the cause of the recent tension with Israel, and the tensions/suspitions between Turkey and the US. Turkey is trying to be a regional power and play on equal terms with the big boys. Right ow it is flirting with Russia, China, Iran and the Arab countries, but in my humble opiion it is overreaching, and forgetting that it is quite a fragile country. As I already said it is, nad will remain dependent on the West'good will, particularly that of USA and the EU, for know-how, armament, capital and markets for its goods. If it becomes a nuisance, however, tha west can clip its wings very quickly indeed - most Turks, even some ot their politicians, don't even realize how easy this can be done from Washington and/or Brussels... So far Washington has been very supportive, even instrumental, in promoting Turkey's EU bid. But Turkey is walking a fine line with its regional flirts with Iran, the Arabs and Russia - there are very real signs that the US is beginning to question the future of its relations with Turkey.
As for the apparent Euro-scepticism or doubts that many Turks express about the EU - they is understandable and are mostly due to frustration/disappointment/hurt feelings/hurt pride, an understandable reaction, after all. These attitudes are used by the government i two ways: domestically, to bolster nationalistic fervour, and internatially, to try influence the EU (not very successfully).
As for the British position on the issue of Turkey's membership - it is extremely selfish, self-serving, servile and short-sighted. (Lots of words beginning with "S":-))
Trying to undermine France,Germany, the Netherlands etc., to accomodate the US and to make some cash, selling Europe's future to the Turks - this will hardly make Creat Britain more poular or influential in the Union...
Just my 2 cents...
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* 65. At 11:41pm on 27 Jul 2010, Unal wrote:
And as for the Kurds who are armed by the isrealis and the Greeks who also provide the propaganda, keep on trying.
-----
So that is why our defense spending is that high! If we have to arm the Kurds as well and provide propaganda then it all makes sense! Finally!
You are giving too much credit to the Greek Intelligence Agency, they are sort of a joke compared to others and to even believe that they can circumvent your nation and provide support to the Kurds is insulting Turkey and Turkishness, you could go to jail for that in your country you know...
As for propaganda, I have some very cool photos I took in Thrace recently, white walls with writings "Greeks out of Thrace" made by none other than the Grey Wolves of Turkey. Ever heard of them?
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Isenhorn @#166
You miss the point altogether. The benefit to the UK being in the EU is that, at every moment, The British strive to undermine the German-French Axis.
It is The Game the Britain has played in Europe and the rest of the World since the days of Empire ... the fact that the British have not got an Empire any more is beside the point.
Why do you think David Cameron is in India with the largest ever Trade Delegation that Britain has ever sent abroad - more trade for the EU? I don't think so.
Why does the UK place so much emphasis on the "Special Relationship" with the USA even though Macaroon openly admits (albeit with minor revisions of history) that Britain is THE Junior Partner? Is it perhaps exactly that - the UK is the 53rd US State and we are there to divide Europe and disrupt all attempts by France and Germany to forge an alliance at odds with the American long-term objectives? You betcha!
In recent BBC videos regarding India and the visit of the UK Trade Delegation including dome of the most high profile Ministers of the UK State, we see images of JCB (a VERY much a UK company)building JCB vehicles in India ... that is no magic it is a fact of life. Britain's future does not lie within Europe where the ties are merely geographic but with the global economy where Britain will trade with India and China and sell its soul to anyone who will trade with the UK. That's the way it is and that's the way it has always been.
Britain only joined the "Common Market" because it was a market that benefited the UK. Even the British people were not sure if it was that good a deal with only 67% supporting the UK remaining in the EU!
The late Pres. de Gaulle was absolutely right when he said of Great Britain, "“Here is a country which is not European…its history, its geography, its economy, its agriculture and the character of its people – admirable people though they are – all point in a different direction…This is a country which…cannot, despite what it claims and perhaps even believes, be a full member.”
You are probably right that the UK should work with Turkey to from strong trade links. I am wearing a fake Breitling Wristwatch that is limited edition and worth £32k second hand – it is probably a better fake than the Chinese can make and the Chinese are pretty darned good at making fakes! But the point is, the UK AND Turkey can probably do more for the benefit of the whole of Europe INSIDE the EU than we can do outside the EU within which Germany and France want to control everything and run the EU as a private club even at the expense of countries like Greece and the other less-well-off nations who don't deserve to be treated with such contempt by Germany and France!
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"I'm impressed they let him use "W":)) he should really thank "Mother of God":))"
There were not many L. willing to stand to Marshall P.
[there are nicer ways of committing suicide]
[of course there was also general Ż. :)]
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dawei @#173
Absolutely so and why else would David Cameron espouse that Turkey should be allowed to continue on the path to joining the EU?
He is actually practicing great Statesmanship as he is evidencing that the EU is NOT a private members club and SHOULD be a loosely affiliated Trade Bloc to which Turkey should have as much right to join as the Ukraine or Georgia - neither of which countries lie with in the definition of "Europe" but which Germany and France are (or were) happy to see strive to join the EU!
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148. At 2:21pm on 28 Jul 2010, oeichler wrote:
Greece is not a secular state and she was allowed to join the EU.
So why not Turkey???
---
Although Greece is a country whose society (mainly the older population nowdays) is deeply connected to the orthodox church, I would say it is still a secular nation. Yes, priests are paid by the state (soon gonna stop) and religion classes are being taught in public schools, but anyone can be an atheist and of any other religion. If you are at school and you are of a different religion or an atheist you do not have to be in those classes. In the army, I gave a different oath without "God" in it because I chose to do so.
In addition, there is a Muslim population (recognised with equal rights), mainly of Turkish origin that resides in Greece and has done so since the exchange of populations. The agreements provided for a muslim population to stay in Greece and a christian population (Greek) to stay in Turkey (mainly in Istanbul, Imvros and Tenedos Islands). The muslim population in Greece enjoys from the constitution equal rights, access to religious facilities in their communities and their own Muftis (to obey their own muslim laws) and has kept its size and even flourished in some parts of Greece like Thrace. They also have representatives in the Parliament, mainly through PASOK party and have their own schools where they learn Turkish (sometimes only Turkish which is to me unacceptable) and study the Koran. In my last visit to Turkey I met colleagues of mine from the Turkish office that were born and lived in Greece and did not speak a word of Greek. Imagine that. This is why I shake my head when outsiders say that minorities in Greece are oppressed.
On the other hand, the Greek population in Turkey never had equal rights, their occupational choices were limited from the beginning and their numbers went from around 120,000 after the exchage of populations to a mere 2,000 today (ideally for Turkey this should have been 0 now). Through pogroms, extreme discrimination and forceful and continuous abuse of their rights, most made the choice to leave, leaving behind only the elders that refused to resettle and the priests in the Patriarchy. Can you see the contrast?
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In #176 Chris CAMP wrote:" The people of Northern Cyprus belong to Northern Cyprus. All calls for ethnic cleansing must be repudiated. Any attempt at ethnically cleansing Cyprus, or Kosovo or parts of Georgia must be confronted and stopped."
Not so long ago we've commemorated an anniversary of Srebrenica Massacre.
Committed in the heart of Europe. With UN peacekeepers watching idly.
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Chris Campo @#176
I could not agree with you more. Indeed many of the moslem inhabitants of Northern Cyprus arrived there as refugees from the southern half of Cyprus were they were despatched by Cypriot-Greek terror.
As much as there are Greek-Cypriots who fled from Northern Cyprus to Southern cyprus due to Turkish-Cypriot terror - two wrongs do not make a right.
The moment that the UN, in the guise of a British Army Officer, drew the Green line, Cyprus effectively became two nations ... blame that, if you will, on that British Army Officer but de facto Cyrpus IS a divided nation due to ethnic and religious difference and that difference will never be legitimately reconciled.
"Hi-falutin" attempts to decry Turkish membership of the EU because of ethnic atrocities - committed on BOTH sides - 60 years ago in Cyprus do not and should not stand in the way of a secular Turkey joining the EU - Turkey has as much right to be in the EU as the UK or Southern Cyprus.
Indeed, Northern Cyprus should strive to join the EU too!
The more the merrier and the less the EU will be a political superstate but more a loose trading block of united nations.
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It's so funny and predictable to watch. The Turks did this, the Greeks did that. In 1427 fifty four Bosnians were killed by the Croats. We have their names right here and they will be avenged. Oh no they won't because in 1371 Bosnians killed 126 Croats and we have their names right here. Walloons this, Flemish that, Catalans this, Basque that, and on and on ad nauseum. What was the name of that union again? The Eugenics Unions? I think we should start writing a Eulogy for it right now. How nice to know this is our competition. Keep up the bad work.
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176. At 5:04pm on 28 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
As to northern Cyprus - you can call them "immigrants", "settlers", "invaders", in fact, call them "chopped chicken" if you like, I don't care. The fact of the matter is that most have been there for the best part of 60 years. A great many of them were born and died exactly where they are right now - in Northern Cyprus. For better or for worse, it is their homw now, and asking them to leave would be asking them to abandon their homeland.
----
Nah, not even close to 60 years. But your thinking is sound, nobody expects them to leave. But you wouldn't cry foul if Greeks from Greece started emmigrating en masse in Cyprus to bring the demographic percentages back to where they should be? Hell, all you need is some Cypriots that live abroad to do that and all is well... An admission by Turkey that the settling of Cyprus was wrong and went against the Geneva convention would be a start though. But Turkey is not famous for admitting that they can see their elephant in the room, ever....
""but that is how the EU, namely Germany and then France and Britain wanted it in the first place."
oh, yes that's right. I completely forgot that Greeks never had any say in Greece's history. They never had any part of it at all. It's been the nasty British, Germans, Turks, unicorns, klingons and martians that have been getting Greece up those dire straits.
It's such a convenient excuse - it's everybody else's fault!"
I will not ever say that Greece never had a choice in anything, but to deny that most things happening around you on a political level are controlled by the big powers of that time is naive at best. Itjust shows that you do not have a clear understanding of how politics work. Look at the involvement of the big powers in the Greek-Turkish wars for example as a start. Also look at the role the British and Americans played during the crisis in Cyprus (declassified documents are very revealing). Take another look at the US support of a dictatorship in Greece that led to all that mess, for which even the past US Ambassador Burns appologized to the Greek people after relevant documents were de-classified. To say that it was only the fault of the big powers is wrong. To deny the strong influence they had is stupid.
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The complexities of Turkish admission would multiply well beyond current apprehension.
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Russia has announced plans to sell minority stakes in 11 state-run firms which it says could raise about one trillion roubles ($30bn; £19.2bn).
The part-privatisation scheme, its biggest since the 1990s, is set to begin next year and will include Sberbank and its oil firm Rosneft.
Russia has been looking for ways to plug its budget deficit.(BBC)
This might be an opportunity for Greece to make sound investments in a big,stable well managed oil company and a healthy, equally well managed major bank, thus securing a source of future supplies and credits.
[of course investing in Iran's oil industry would be even safer.
Ditto re North Korean banks. If it were possible.]
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139. At 1:55pm on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat
PM: For your information 1/3, of FYROM's territory (not the Albanian side) are the well known Greek settlements like Monastir - ancient Greek Heraclea Lyncestis, Ohrid - Greek city of Lychnidus, Stip - Greek city of Astibus, Kratovo - Greek city of Tranupara just to mention some.
As for the Egyptians never heard of the Greek colony Naucratis (Egypt, Herodotus source)
or the today Alexandria-by-Egypt etc. You see...
In Greek mythology, Aegyptus is a descendant of the heifer maiden, Io, and the river-god Nilus, and was a king in Egypt. Aegyptus fathered fifty sons, who were all but one murdered by the fifty daughters of Aegyptus' twin brother, Danaus son of Achiroe and Belus, a mythical king of Egypt. The myth of Danaus is a foundation legend of Argos, one of the foremost Mycenaean cities of the Peloponnesus. In Homer's Iliad, "Danaans" ("tribe of Danaus") and "Argives" commonly designate the Greek forces opposed to the Trojans.
The first faraons were Egyptians but the last ones were Greeks
As for the Phoenicians and the Greeks...
Europa was a Phoenician woman of high lineage, from whom the name of the continent Europe has ultimately been taken. The name Europa occurs in Hesiod's long list of daughters of primordial Oceanus and Tethys. Zeus abducted her after assuming the form of a dazzling white bull. He took her to the island of Crete where she gave birth to Minos.
By that, in antiquity, the Greek historian Herodotus mentioned that the world had been divided by unknown persons into the three continents of Europe, Asia, and Libya (Africa)
In Greek mythology, Andromeda was the daughter of Cepheus and Cassiopeia, king and queen of the kingdom Ethiopia (for others was actually a kingdom based at Joppa in Phoenicia)
And of course from perseus and Andromeda was born Heracles...
...was four generations later than Perseus, which corresponds to the legendary succession: Perseus, Electryon, Alcmena, and Heracles.
The Argeads claimed descent from the Temenids of Argos, in the Peloponnese, whose legendary ancestor was Temenus, the great-great-grandson of Heracles And finally as a member of the Argead dynasty (traced their origins to Argos, in southern Greece hence the name Argeads) at approx. 800 BC, Alexander the great claimed patrilineal descent from Heracles.
...but as a product of inferior American public schools as yourself admit...don't expect you to know that...so let's don't go further on Mediterranean issues...
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Menedemus wrote (#181):
You are probably right that the UK should work with Turkey to from strong trade links. I am wearing a fake Breitling Wristwatch that is limited edition and worth £32k second hand – it is probably a better fake than the Chinese can make and the Chinese are pretty darned good at making fakes!
During my recent port call in Bodrum I couldn't help but take a photo of a big sign (by no means the only one) "GENUINE FAKE WATCHES".
The owner of an equally large store let me take a couple of pics inside.
There were Breitlings, Cartiers, Guccis, Omegas, Rolexes...
Practically every brand except for genuine fake Patek-Phillipe.
And they didn't even look cheap like that made in PRC fake stuff. :)
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Re #186 (M)" The moment that the UN, in the guise of a British Army Officer, drew the Green line, Cyprus effectively became two nations ... blame that, if you will, on that British Army Officer but de facto Cyrpus IS a divided nation due to ethnic and religious difference and that difference will never be legitimately reconciled.
UN Secretary General (K. Annan) presented a a reunification plan of a war-torn island. It was a decent, reasonable and balanced plan.
Turkish Cypriots accepted it, Greek Cypriots - rejected.
So your pessimism, Menedemus, may be indeed justified.
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188. At 6:02pm on 28 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII:
Bosnians & Croats are not in the EU...they wish they were members
Catalans-Basque and Flemish-Walloons is an internal national affair not a EU one
As for the Greeks and why we are talking here is that Europeans will not forget and will continue protect themselves from the "today Turkey" in order not see them, one today, laughing on behalf of the European Union with the blessings of such a British policy
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#188 - MarcusAureliusII
You know you might be right. Carry on at this rate, we might end up with a European Civil War and kill 618,000 of each other.
No, nobody would be that stupid . . .
. . . would they?
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#193
Confirms my worst fears.
People who dwell on their (?) glorious past to forget about their sordid present rather than trying to concentrate on the future which could be build in cooperation with other relatively small countries unable to make it on its own - will never get anywhere.
I fully expect more posts from Balkans and Peloponese whose authors will explain to us how they were badly wronged 100, 200, 500, 1000 years ago.
And why that awful trauma prevents them from being successful today.
And tomorrow.
I think poster 'oeichler' is right: you have nothing in common with ancient Danaes or Phoenicians.
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Turkey’s future is with the EU. I would hope that the EU countries see it is also to their benefit. Turkey’s GDP ranking would be 9th of the then 28 countries. Maybe the EU should consider kicking out some of the non-performers.
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threnodious;
Budapest school district number 8. Not my story, Deutche Welle's.
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Re #188
MAII, you forgot to mention that only 10 000 years ago in the present day Portugal some Homos killed some Troglos, after the latter raped the womenfolk of the former.
Now, as far as I know that massive slaughter has not been avenged yet.
And UN Security Countil members continue as if nothing happened.
This should not be allowed to stand.
Somebody has to draw a line in the guan...err...sand.
Where it Troglodyte Rights Watch?
Watching them vicious bellicose Fyromians you say?
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110 powermeer writes:
"I apologise, being a product of inferior American public schools ..."
"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing"
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#200 - MarcusAureliusII
Frankly Marcus, if you have become so desperate for evidence of Europe's imminent implosion that you cite an example from a single district of one city as evidence, your cause is lost.
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#198 Powermeerkat
´People (and countries) who dwell on their glorious past --- ´
UK and USA are your examples --I presume ?
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Turkey is not just a simple state as it has been attempted to be portrayed as. We simply do not want to be a part of that dingy club called the EU and I personally think this is the view of most of us. I however, thank the British PM for his stance which is well appreciated here in this country as Brits always have supported our campaign. We all know that, Turks are going through a massive burn out and I do not think that we have will to renew our drive to join.. We surely know there is life elsewhere and why not tap into our true potential.. however, well done Britain, but no thanks mate,we shall go on our own way!
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198. At 7:50pm on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"...Confirms my worst fears..."
Wise introspection and self-criticism again.
After you already confirm to us
a)you are a product of inferior American public schools
...now you obstinately trying on convincing us that...
b)you are of no past or one should not care of his past
for your information b) is same as a) with different words
Too much of posts redundancy can badly harm you.
"No man's past" powermeerkat...people without a past has no future or in other words an empty glass leaves you always thirsty...but something tell me you already know that
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threnodious, if Budapest school district number 8 were a single instance or even the rare exception you'd be right. But then you are never right. Budapest school district number 8 is the rule, not just in Hungary but all over the EU and well beyond. Not just for the Roma but for every minority on the continent wherever they happen to live. That you refuse to recognize it is symptomatic of the underlying mindest that not only makes it that way but keeps it from ever changing. The next Albert Einstein might be a Roma but he or she will never get the chance to study physics becuase racist Europe will not allow anyone except those who are acceptable to the local tribe to go anywhere in life. They are too stupid to realize that by holding "the others' back they are holding themselves back as well. One thing I do know, Peggy and Socrates notwithstanding, I'm glad I'm not a European living in Europe. If I were, I might see the world through the same narrow distorted eyes Europeans see it.
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#205 Comez
´We simply do not want to be a part of that dingy club the EU----´
-- Another ´young Turk´ (double meaning !)
I believe the Turks presently living in the EU have a different opinion !
No mass exodus back to the homeland has yet occurred, or have I missed it ?
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#206 - Ellinas
There is a difference between knowing and understanding your past and living in it.
Without this knowledge and understanding, one cannot learn the lessons of history but one of those lessons is that you can never turn the clock back and the only way to avoid atrophy is to move on. What determines the direction in which we go (or ought to go) is the will not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
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#207 MarcusAurellius
I agree, Europe seems to have the same prejudices as we have.
Blacks, coloreds, Latinos, and native Indians --I didn´t realize you had a social conscience !
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Marcus
Some could say--
´I´m glad I´m not an American living in America. If I were, I might see the world through the same narrow distorted eyes Americans see it.´
Without lying !
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Acorn brain;
"Marcus
Some could say--
´I´m glad I´m not an American living in America. If I were, I might see the world through the same narrow distorted eyes Americans see it.´
Without lying !"
They wouldn't be lying but they'd still be wrong. Being wrong and lying are not the same thing. But it is my experience that Europeans are congenital liars. There are too many examples of major lies they told with dire consequences to even think about.
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#207 - MarcusAureliusII
"But then you are never right".
I envy you Marcus. Your unique combination of arrogance, prejudice and certainty has rendered wisdom and understanding obsolete.
In almost every post, you use your knowledge of Europe to underline your prejudice and every time, you reveal a singular lack of understanding. Your nation is Europe's bastard child. You owe your legal systems to England, your constitution to France, your culture to a range of European and African influences, your industrial might either to European migrants or the slaves they sold you and your military power to technology gifted to you by victory in conflict. You are utterly dismissive of your friends and allies, dangerously contemptuous of your potential enemies and hell bent on perverting history to suit your own narrow agenda. When you run out of constructive arguments, you revert to massive generalisations ('every minority on the continent wherever they happen to live')and, when all else fails, you resort to personal insult.
There is just one thing on which we can agree.
"I'm glad I'm not a European living in Europe".
So am I.
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threnodious;
"Your nation is Europe's bastard child."
The operative word is clearly bastard and we are proving it at every opportunity. We "owe" Euorpe and Europeans nothing. America was born out of a disgust and rejection of Europe. America is the anti-Europe. And we who are the thrown away trash, the wretched refuse or their descendants largely from Europe are our forefather's revenge. We have no choice in the matter. In the end, we will play a crucial role in Europe's terminal fate. We are destined to put the stake through its black heart. With the financial crisis we cooked up we may have already unwittingly done it. Now what's left to do is sit back and watch it fall.
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MAII
"Never regard something as doing you good if it makes you betray a trust or lose your sense of shame or makes you show hatred, suspicion, ill-will or hypocrisy"
You should try helping yourself to the philosophy as well as the name occasionally.
(Believed to have been written, incidentally, in Aquincum which is today Budapest).
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MarcusA
´ But it is my experience that Americans are congenital liars. There are too many examples of major lies they told with dire consequences to even think about ´
The Iraq WAR is ONLY ONE of them --remember the photos and THEN the 100,000´s dead and wounded, including Americans ?
ALL FOR AN AMERICAN LIE !
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#214 - MarcusAureliusII
"The operative word is clearly bastard and we are proving it at every opportunity".
Could not have put it better myself.
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MarcusA
NPR TODAY -- American Life Insurance companies are cheating the recipients of the insurance to be paid at the death of the serving US military !
American congenital liars ?
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# 207,
I don't know why you seem to think that in Europe, nobody acknowledges the fact that racism exists and is a problem. There are numerous organizations that fight prejudice, and sure, they have a long way to go but to act as if it's all racism is quite ridiculous. Besides, what would you know about the experience of minorities in Europe? Not to mention 'minorities' is a gross misnomer For example, The LGBT-minority is emancipating itself quite well. See for example: The mayor of Paris. The next PM of Belgium ... or hey, even the Flemish minister of education, who married his boyfriend last week.
I don't mind you pointing out racism in Europe - credit where credit is due, you haven't used the Roma story in a few weeks - but don't act like it's all good on your side of the pond. Arizona? Everybody is racist after all. As Sartre said, everybody has prejudices, it's up to you to confront them and try to the best of your ability to overcome them.
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Europe has a chance to extend it's cultural influence into a region that hasn't felt it since the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, such an opportunity may not come again for hundreds years. Seize it before it's too late.
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acorn;
"The Iraq WAR is ONLY ONE of them --remember the photos and THEN the 100,000´s dead and wounded, including Americans ?"
What, only 100,000? In the summer of 2006 the Lancet, the British medical journal said 600,000 dead and that was just Iraqis killed after the regime fell. What happened to the other 500,000+, they spring back to life? Or is this an admission that the Lancet lied? It was so obvious and blatant a lie it was a joke but BBC and other America bashers reported it like it was a fact. In 1000 days 600,000 dead or 600 a day every day, day in and day out for three years. People like you believed it, what BBC now calls in its new program "useful idiots" who are duped into believing and repeating lies for advancing political purposes. Had there been 600,000 dead the bodies would have piled up everywhere like cordwood. It didn't take much to figure that out and it didn't take much to figure out that the number of dead and wounded American soldiers was less in five years than the carage due to motor vehicle accidents in the US every five weeks. More sensationalism, more lies you'd think they'd been written by Radio Moscow during the height of hte cold war. But they weren't, they were written in other places including in London and even at Bush House. Don't believe it? Then go back into BBC's archives and listen to their reports back then.
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#221
100,000´s --is short for hundreds of thousands.
---and don´t change the topic which YOU began !
AMERICAN CONGENITAL LYING --- is the topic and you are already intellectually running scared !
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Hello everybody
I am off away suffering in the dacha (these 2 weeks)
Today found a silly bank who sold me a netbook (only)(alas) on credit for a year ahead :o)))))))))) With the other, normal, notebook, another bank refused to have my money yesterday :o), turned me down :o(
So I am studying silly new buttons on this silly tiny thing :o(
But am glad to find the old company all fit and all :o)
(awful heat in St. Petersburg; summer like never before meteo says in the past 130 yrs of (existing) observations. Was plus 36 today :o(
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Marcus
NPR TODAY --- FBI agents cheated on a´ terrorism´test.
American Congenital Honesty ?
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Acorn, the main source of lying in America today comes from the left of the political spectrum, the area I think you are a part of.
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209. At 9:35pm on 28 Jul 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
"...There is a difference between knowing and understanding your past and living in it..."
Of course there is a difference
"...Without this knowledge and understanding, one cannot learn the lessons of history..."
Of course without them one cannot learn the lessons of history and i go further by saying the lessons of life and that's why as i said before...
...an empty (the understanding) glass (the knowledge) leaves you always thirsty (one cannot learn the lessons of life)
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Turkey is part of Europe. It is a democratic country, member of NATO, and has a great deal to offer the rest of Europe. I would be far more concerned about the radicalization of muslims in France than the radicalization of Muslims in Turkey.
Istanbul was the capital of the Eastern ROMAN Empire, where Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Eastern Roman empire, and where much of eastern Europe was governed from in not the so far distant past. European History would not be what it is today if it was not for the Turks. The Turks are working hard to bring their people as well as their economy up to par for joining the European Community. They are a good people and very much can say friends of Europe and my country the United States. We here at least appreciate the support that the Turks have shown us. Hopefully Europe will not forget our fellow NATO member. At least they have not lied to you about their financial condition like other nations you have let in.
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Re: Knowing the past...[versus reliving it]
I've heard of an emperor Bigus Dickus
As well as of his wife - Incontinentia.
I even have a copy of "Life of Brian" at home.
And know that Zeus accosted women disguised as a swan.
But that's Schwanengesang as they say in one of them forin languages.
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" Hopefully Europe will not forget our fellow NATO member. At least they have not lied to you about their financial condition like other nations you have let in."
Careful now, tkaz (#227).
At this rate you may pretty soon utter the "G"-word.
And then you'll have nobody to blame but yourself.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A comment re Turkey membership found on HYS
Slavadil wrote:
"No No NNOO!! The EU is falling apart over Greece, and you want to accept another country just like it".
:-)))
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# 227,
I'm kind of puzzled why you bring it up like that ... the Turks have been important to European history. What is your point? That they made a great 'enemy' the rest of Europe could hate? That we should be grateful that they exterminated the last bits of the Roman Empire? ;)
Turkey might be a 'democratic' country, but it certainly isn't up to standards yet. As long as the Turkish state is waging a dirty war, tortures and suppresses freedom of speech in the name of patriotism, there can be no accord on Turkish entrance in the EU. Furthermore, before any other big countries join the EU, we need to think seriously about where we want to go with the project and consolidate that first. I know that the Tories in the UK - and I suppose the biggest part of the UK population - wants an EU that is basically a big free trade zone. I don't think however that this is the view of most of continental Europe - nor by the way, the Netherlands, PVV didn't get 50 % of the votes ... ;) - .
All that aside, instead of being angry about Turkey not being able to get in the EU, maybe Cameron should start working on taking the UK out, then he can start his own Union with Turkey ... and everybody will be happy.
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Re EUSSR Goose song
"The silver Swan, who living had no Note,
when Death approached, unlocked her silent throat.
Leaning her breast against the reedy shore,
thus sang her first and last, and sang no more:
"Farewell, all joys! O Death, come close mine eyes!
"More Geese than Swans now live, more Fools than Wise."
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It is not my intention to interrupt the stream messages from Americans in the middle of nowhere, who cannot sleep and instead fill this blog with republican smog.
I just like to mention that the German foreign minister seems to have made a little performance in Ankara yesterday, so that Mr. Cameron was not too embarrassed. German media expect, however, that Westerwelle might be embarrassed when he returns to Berlin and a government that has not been more weak for the last 5-6 years.
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@ 223 AliceInWonderLand
Welcome darling. I really missed you. You come just in time. The discussion concerns the eventual adhesion of Turkey to the EU, the support that country enjoys from the UK/USA,etc., and of course the numerous objections/comments that come from the four corners of the old Europe. I am waiting for your contribution to the duscussion.
Regards
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WebAlice
Re #223
Almost the same sweltering heat here in Finland - - last night at 1a.m. we sat at a bar in the half-light (as it is this time of year) and it was 29 Celsius - - another excuse for just 1, 2, 3.... more Lonkeros with ice!
Have You tried that refreshing drink - - it is alcohol, but also does keep one cool.
In our part of Finland there has now been 66 consecutive days without a raindrop - - we hear it is the same for most of west Russia - - the tales from Moscow (plus 38C!) are grim: Many deaths from heat-stroke, roads melting..
Is it the same hard, heated times in St.P'berg?
Finland has the 66,000 lakes so 1 for each day of non-rain! All the same the old & the very young are becoming fractious because the heat is not dissipating at night.
We are strange - -People - - 'oh please, let us have a really good warm summer!' - - Now, Oh where is the coolness & refreshing rainfall!?
Semi-Russian occasion (?) Today we are taking my holidaying English brother & sister-in-law to the Valaamo Monastery - - it is the site the Russian Orthodox Faith moved to when Jo Stalin decided to burn down the Churches or make them into cinemas in the 1920s-30s - - the Finns gave the Orthodox refugees a large piece of land (+ lake-shoreline) as a permanent settlement. It was the outpost of Russian religion until the events of early 1990s. They thrived and there are many fine & interesting buildings. Today thousands visit Valaamo and recruits to the Orhtodox Faith increase - - personally, that is inexplicable to me - - but, each to their own!
You should come see sometime, if you are able.
Down the road from Valaamo is the Lutheran Lintula Nunnery - - we may visit it too, although it is not really open as much to tourists - - and from there we'll stop off at the Karvio Bridge for some 'white-water' rapids Fly-fishing in the evening before finding another late-night bar to round off a lazy day.
Cheers WebAlice & try to saty 'cool' as You always have been - - literal and meta-physical!
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@ 214 MA
"With the financial crisis we cooked up we may have already unwittingly done it. Now what's left to do is sit back and watch it fall."
What a remarkable confession! Ever since the Breton-Wood Agreement of 1943, America has been emitting the reserve currency for the needs of the World Economy without any plausible guarantee for compensation of the participants in case of need.
I see your point Marcus, but I still can't quite understand the real reason for your cumulated hatred against us. Are you Christian Marcus?
Regards
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MAscaridII
Re #221
On this You are absolutely correct: The Lancet & other media around the world procliamed all sorts of incredible numbers of dead & wounded.
The numbers were ridiculous & suggested either a deliberate bias or an inarticulate & untrained lack of understanding of weaponry & logistics as great as the USA's failings post-invasion.
Iraq's overall Population according to UN demographics has remained constant despite the enormous tragedy: Apparently those Iraqis who managed to flee the country have flourished - - a weird by-product!
Of course it is a very human tragedy & the suffering of all Iraqis is directly the fault of the US-UK led invasion.
However, as the critics always choose to overlook: Indirectly some of the blame lies with Saddam & his monstrous regime who failed for 12 years to abide by UN Resolutions, and post-invasion, the vast majority (UN estimate in 2008 put cause of fatalities at 83% 'civil' & 17% Allied forces) of the casualties among Iraqis were inflicted by fellow-Iraqis from the Sunni & Shia faiths suicidal, near genocidal internecine conflict.
Of course the counter argument is if US-UK hadn't gone there then there would not have been the casualites & terrible strife.
The obverse of that is the 'liberal' minded would now, 7 years later, still be bleating & whining mostly at Washington about, 'Why haven't USA done anything about Saddam'S brutal regime?'
The question virtually every opponent of the US-UK & critic of its campaign in Iraq neglects to admit was on their lips from the moment of the Liberation of Kuweit.
All blame for the years of catastrophic aftermath following the brilliantly successful invasion & ousting of Saddam must lay with the US as the occupying authority. The civil strife would not have been so grave had 'Dubya' & Cheney's Washington had even a semblance of longterm planning in-place - - they didn't - - thus whatever argument we use to defend the US-UK actions in Iraq they ultimately fail to stand-up because the USA got its strategic implementation totally wrong.
Though neither the US-UK or any coalition forces inflicted the huge majority of the casualties on Iraq it is their presence without proper 'political' Leadership/Direction & the failure to have on-the-ground infra-structure policies that contributed to the overall cause & effect circa 2003-10 & ongoing.
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I don't see how Mr Cameron, who is the prime minister of one of the EU's eurosceptic states can be persuasive to other Europeans regarding Turkey's accession.
The example he used of De Gaulle's reluctance to accept Britain in the EU, only reminds to Europeans that accepting Britain has indeed slowed down the European integration process. And the same could happen if they let Turkey in.
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Re my MODS referred #187
All it said was what I've said many times before (albeit, a bit bluntly):
What the mad-greek in his contributions 'knows' about WW1 & WW2 plus Churchill reminds me of nursery school tales of ogres & witches - - there is almost no relation to reality - - the only twist to the stories being the predictable marxist-leninist claims of 'conspiracy'.
Unsubstantiated, unfounded & uneqivocally utter tosh & gibberish!
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CBW
Isn't it interesting that while citzens of Continental Old Europe (particularly in ClubMed countries) vehemently protest against plans to increase a retirement age in their countries, if ever so slightly, majority of British subjects support elimination of DRA [which's set a mandatory retirement age at 65] because the'd like to work longer either to feel productive or simply to make more money.
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# 177. At 5:06pm on 28 Jul 2010, oeichler wrote:
“””@159 Nik
Don't play the race card... you might lose the game...”””
From an irrelevant like you? You are extremely amusing!
“””"Who are described as Mediterraneans?
... i.e. the only nation fully described as Mediterraneans are modern Greeks.
Right."
* WRONG,
not sure why you limit Italy to the south, but I miss Cyprus in your list... and Malta... as you referred to "nations"”””
Apparently you have not visited Italy. Neither south nor North. Go see for yourself, but don’t speak before you do that.
“””"And from there one anyone that looks like Greek.
Funnily, eve today only those who fall in the ancient centers of Hellenism around the Mediterranean manage to look like Greeks."
* YES,
like Greeks prior to the Ottoman invasion, since then Greeks look more like Turks...
Don't scratch a Greek too much, you might find a Turk underneath...”””
A Turk is basically a Mongol tribe. You find original Turks in Turkmenstan and small parts of Kazakstan, Ouzbekistan, Kirgistan and Tajikistan. Do Greek resemble to you like them? Apparently you have never been either to Greece or Turkey. You do not know either the story of Greeks inside the Ottoman Empire, and thus with your limited knowledge you imagne anything. Go educate yourself.
“””"No, we are sorry for having been such handsome men..."
* YES,
until they are 30, then they become FAT and UGLY. Something must go wrong then in the Greek family...”””
Having some complexes there? What happened? You lost a girl to them? Anyway, your complexes being evident, now comes the best!!! You try to bring me evidence!!!
“””SKELETAL ANALYSIS REVEALS RACIAL NATURE OF HELLENIC SOCIETY””””
Dadadadoum!!!! Po po po! (ehehehehe) greatr analysis? Whi si this Angel?
“””One of the most complete studies ever undertaken of racial types in Ancient Hellas was done by the American anthropologist J. L. Angel, who performed an extensive survey of all ancient Greek crania.”””
… evidently with a preconceived idea of what he had to give as a result. Call Greeks Vickings.
“””Angel (1944), calculated that during the Classical period of Greek history (650-150 BC), 27% of the Greek population had been predominantly Nordic in type.”””
This Angel of course ignores the extremely basic fact of anthtropological analysis in Europe that:
It is impossible to distinguish even with an extremely large sample during a cranial analysis who is Nordic and who is Mediterranean as both have an almost identical dolichocephalic/mesocephalic/bracycephalic ratios. Scientists using this method follow the rule of the thumb: populations found in Sweden have to be Nordic, populations found in Greece have to Mediterranean.
What Angel did is the equivalent of digging up middle Age graves in Sweden and doing cranial analysis and finding that the population was Mediterranean.
“””This is perfectly in line with other observations, which have determined that the Hellenic population consisted of two, possibly three elements initially: Nordics, Mediterraneans and Alpine types.”””
Ouaou!!! Alpines in Greece? Did they dig the graves of the 100,000s of Gauls that died in their unfatefull invasion of Greece or something?
“””Only later were non-European elements introduced, mainly through the importation of slaves.”””
Via slaves? Really? I thought Greeks took slaves from the nearby areas, Thrace and Minor Asia. Most of them were Thraecians, i.e. tribes very close to Greeks both anthropologically an culturally. Slaves from more distant lands even during the Roman Empire were less in numbers and statistically not so important to produce any notable change (let alone often slaves simply did not have kids or women slaves had kids with relatively shortened lifes due to basic conditions).
“””HELLENIC IDEAL WAS NORDIC”””
Oh oh oh !!! No mate, YOUR ideal is Nordic, Hellenic ideal was to be Greek.
“””Indeed, the Greek orator Dio of Prusa noted that the Greek ideal of beauty was a Nordic one. The Greeks, he said, admired the blond Achilles, but thought that the barbarian Trojan Hector, was black-haired. [Günther (1956).]”””
N’importe. Blond is no particular colour. What Greeks called and still call blond, up in Sweden is considered dark brown to the extend of having doubts about the real father of the kid.
“””In his "Argonautica," the Greek poet Apollonius Rhodius, describes the hero Jason, and all fifty of the Argonauts, as blond-haired. [Sieglin (1935).]”””
I.e. brown haired.
“””When the heroine Electra, in Euripides' play of that name, finds a lock of her brother Orestes' hair, on the grave of their father Agamemnon, she can tell that it is his hair, because of its distinctive blond color. [Ridgeway (1909).]”””
Same
“””The poet Bacchylides said that the women of Sparta were blonde, and Dicaearchus said much the same thing about the women of Thebes. [Gunther (1956).]”””
Same.
“””For the Greeks, the most beautiful woman who ever lived, Helen, was a blond, as were those mythical men such as Adonis, who were famed for their handsomeness.”””
Eeee no, Helen’s hair actually varied, just like Odysseus, the archetypal Greek male whose hair varied from brown to black.
WHERE THE HELLENIC RACE HAS BEEN KEPT PURE
“””In the 4th Century AD, the Jewish physician Adamantios, described what he called the "true Greek" – or where the “Hellenic race has been kept pure” as follows:
"Wherever the Hellenic and Ionic race has been kept pure, we see proper tall men of fairly broad and straight build, neatly made, of fairly light skin and blond; the flesh is rather firm, the limbs straight, the extremities well made. The head is of middling size, and moves very easily; the neck is strong, the hair somewhat fair, and soft, and a little curly; the face is rectangular, the lips narrow, the nose straight, and the eyes bright, piercing, and full of light; for of all nations the Greek has the fairest eyes." [Günther (1927)] """""
Ehehehe… you mention a Jewish physician born and lived in …. Alexandria, Egypt, talking about Greeks? Let me remind you that the populations in Alexandria back then were:
1) lower, middle class => the vast majority of Egyptians – no dark brown hair in sight
2) middle class => Middle Eastern (among them a lot of Jewish) – dark brown extremely rare
3) upper class => Greeks – black, dark brown and rarely light brown hair
What did he speak other than speaking about the differences of Greeks and other Alexandrian populations??? Let alone local Eguptians, back then, Jewish were of course another Middle Eastern population (and the modern population most close to them today are actually the Palestinians, then some of the original Shephardic Jewish of Egypt, Morocco and Algeria). In the Jewish populations of the time, there were no light brown hair (perhaps not even dark brown), their skin was darker (like some of the mid-southern Arabs). Hence a Jewish what would see in a Greek would be the differences, i.e. people with notably fairer colours. Fairer however is comparative and does not mean blond or blue eyed.
We see clearly in the description of Jewish physician Adamantios that Greeks:
1) are tall (indeed they are notably taller th
an Middle Eastern and North Africans even today, but then they were back then the higher class thus frequent meat eaters in comparison to others)
2) have rectangular heads – same today
3) narrow lips – same today
4) fairly light skin and blond (i.e. blond for Jewish = dark brown for a German)
5) fair piercing eyes – i.e. probably makes reference to big eyes? Note the absence of colour description. Even dark brown eyes look fairer when they are big and Greeks back then as today are famed for their big eyes.
6) Straight nose – the physician simply notes the difference with the Egyptian-Middle Eastern type nose (at least some ancient Egyptians also had sometimes a hooked nose as seen in mummies).
Dear Oeichler, your knowledge of history is near-zero. You mentioned us only 1930s German Nazi who in their vain effort to develop the Arian-Indoeuropean theory (which has been already totally debunked) mistranslated ancient texts and tried to equate vague descriptions like “blond hair”, “fairer skin”, “lighter eyes” “Nordic-blond hair”, “Nordic-pale skin” and “Nordic-blue eyes” all while calling every single Mediterranean cranial remains as Nordic.
However in your vain effort to lie (in quite an extremely offensive manner) against Greeks you avoided to mention us real scientists.
Does Aristoteles the Stagirite (born and raised in Chalkikiki, Macedonia) do for you? Ok, take his view:
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@ 223 AliceInWonderLand
Further to my previous post, I (just like our fellow blogger CBW) am planning to pay a visit to St.Petersburg next year or in 2012. I shall be there probably in june with all my family in order to enjoy the White Nights. The circumstance that I will be with my wife and daughters will not deprive me of the pleasure to meet you. On the contrary, we shall be glad to sit in some Coffee on the "Nevsky Prospect" Bvd. for a chat with you.
Regards from Sofia
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ARISTOTELES ON GREEKS :
Greeks have a relatively pale colour which is tanned by the sun (same mentioned by Herodotus who found Persians more white largely due to the fact they did not work out in the sun). Greeks’ range from black to brown often a bit curly (wavy). Greeks have large noses and big piercing eyes of brown colour. Further in the north, Scythians in north Black Sea have straight and thin hair. From there on, the more one goes to the north the more blond and thin haired people finds.
And then he tells us the obvious:
Greeks with their balanced body types and colours are the epitome of the superior man.
And his personal opinion on northerners….:
Blond colours are evidence of one’s barbarism and are signs of inferior people.
Call Aristoteles whatever you like, he has given an a very explicit description of Greeks ... and guess what? It is identical to what we see today. A black to brown haired population where blond is rather the exception, with average light brown notably big eyes where green eyes also arrive but blue are possible though rarer. Relatively taller than other Eastern/Southern Mediterranean people, more light skinned but easily tanned under the sun... and from there one visible darker than northern populations who have visible blonder, straighter and thinner hair.
I do not know about you and your distorted fantasies but me as well as the totality of serious scientists of all specialisations from biology to anthropology, I trust his description more than your WWI-WWII German or Anglosaxon Mengele-scientists anxious to find evidence for their mad theories you also want to abide.
Does it hurt you Oeichler? Again I do sincirely apologise for having my direct roots in ancient Greeks. It is not my fault, thus avoid attacking me on that and get occupied with your own roots and see what you can find about them*.
*It is aboslutely not me that opened this discussion. But every lowly attack against our roots will be answered. You should be ashamed.
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179. At 5:14pm on 28 Jul 2010, DLT wrote:
“””Thanks for the appreciation, Nik. As you may have already guessed, I am from the same region - the counthry to the North/Northeast of Greece...:-). So, WE have first hand experience, I guess...my best regards to you, too!”””
Dobre den DLT, you wrote another priceless text. I highlight the precision of your remarks (why on earth can’t I find this depth in most analyses from western Europeans? Isn’t it natural since they are not in position to know as much as us…).
“””With regards to the Kurdish issue - it does not mean that Turkey is doomed, or that it will disappear…… to sort this out, however, Turkey will have to virtually re-define its very identity - from a fervently nationalistic,nation-state, to a country where two ethnic entities coexist and participate on equal terms.””””
Precisely. That is where neo-Ottomanism comes into picture. The Kemalist state ate all its bread. The pan-Turkism ideal sold extensively till late 90s failed to make the link to central Asia and of course Kurds being called “mountainous Turks” never made any sense even to the most self-convicted Turks themselves! Neo-Ottomanism brings back the “many cultures, one Islamic banner” ideal. It is Turkey’s current card to maintain the balances inside the country but also make the link to its neighbours. If it did not make the link with other Turkish speaking nations, islam might do it as well. With islam it can make easier the link with Balkan muslims (most of them Albanians or of evident Slavic origins and Serbian/Bulgarian speakers as in Bosnia, Bulgaria and north-eastern Greece). But above all with islam it can play down the Kurdish rising national feeling. There is no way it could do that with maintaining the Kemalist pan-tourkic ideal.
“”””Moreover, nationalism, be it in secular, or islamist dress, is actually on the ascendant there. The neo-Ottoman aspirations/ambitions (of which Mr. Davutoglu is just the most recent spokesman) are quickly becoming the official policy.””””
Exactly. Only a local in the region could ever pinpoint this. There is no difference between Kemalism and Neo-Ottomanism: both are vehicules to enforce Turkey’s aggressive expansionism at the expense of neighbouring nations. For your info, the neo-Ottoman Davutoglu is yet another Donme, of the same community the 80% of original young-turks, including Kemal, came… so you understand. What is currently going on is not so much a fight against Neo-Ottomans and Kemalists but a fight against local clans. Neo-Ottomans wish to use the Kemalists and Kemalists the Neo-Ottomans and that dual face of the very same coin is going to be played around in the future. Neo-Ottomans to play aggressively in the near region, and Kemalists to “assure” the west (i.e. US, and little Cameron too) that Turkey is still on their side. We will see more of that.
“””Turkey is trying to be a regional power and play on equal terms with the big boys.”””
But will be a puppet power. A regional power has its own decision making. Turkey is bound by US politics and no matter how much it talks it can’t make a single cm without US ok.
“””Right ow it is flirting with Russia, China, Iran and the Arab countries, but in my humble opiion it is overreaching, and forgetting that it is quite a fragile country.”””
Russia is obliged to pass from the one that controls Bosphorus to maintain some rational balance. Turkey is a good market too and Russia a good market for Turkey. But it is not down to commerce that dictates geography and geopolitics but the opposite. Turkey is bound to oppose sooner or later Russia. Turkey to become really Russian friendly would have to reduce talks with British let alone Americans. And they can’t afford to do so thus they are trapped.
“””If it becomes a nuisance, however, tha west can clip its wings very quickly indeed - most Turks, even some ot their politicians, don't even realize how easy this can be done from Washington and/or Brussels... “””
Some of them really don’t. Others do, Turks are quite reknowned for their diplomatic skills, much more than any of their Greek, Bulgarian, Armenian, Georgian or Syrian neighbours.
“””So far Washington has been very supportive, even instrumental, in promoting Turkey's EU bid. But Turkey is walking a fine line with its regional flirts with Iran, the Arabs and Russia - there are very real signs that the US is beginning to question the future of its relations with Turkey.”””
“””As for the British position on the issue of Turkey's membership - it is extremely selfish, self-serving, servile and short-sighted. (Lots of words beginning with "S":-))”””
Precisely.
Note the great current games where Turkey is implicated:
1) gas pipelines Southstream and Nabucco (the 1 passing from Russia, then Bulgaria, Greece, Italy and the other passing from Turkmenistan, Azerbaitzan, Georgia, Turkey, then Bulgaria, Romania)
2) Black Sea traderoute via Bosphorus channel
US and British interest is to construct Nabucco and link Europe and avoid the Southstream being constructed (as it is bound to offer cheaper gas and a more stable provision) and also to push Turkey restrict control of commerce on the Bosphorus which is currently a free passage.
We will see more of it (again I state my prediction of a provoked “accident” in the channel…).
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Powermeerkat
Re #241
I'm unsurprised by what appears as the general British attitude: That Pensionable Age should be discretionary.
My impression is the UK along with Germany, Poland & some others in the EU27 still have a preponderance of hard workers.
I'm afraid, as has been pointed out by others, there are a good many nations also in the EU where the majority seem to have idly sat back the last 2 or so decades and taken for granted ever-growing prosperity of this supra-National entity. The literal 'Net' result has been the gross shortcomings of Brussels' stagnation 'one-size-fits-all' policies (with EUrope outstripped by almost every region for Economic Growth) and by the last 2 years recession & the exposure of the pan-National duplicitous political corruption surrounding the inception of the EUro-zone.
The UK is now roundly criticised for its carefree/laissez-faire attitude towards Business & Investment sectors during the last 2 decades: Indeed, I am one that severely questions the correctness of thsoe senior Executives still holding such powerful leadership roles when their largely greed-driven actions caused so much damage to the fabric of UK-EUrope & the World. All the same, the idea that the stifling regulation, blanket centralisation policies of Brussels are not also at serious fault is ludicrous: It is the over-mighty/anti-democratic Brussels entity that has created the climate of unpaid/unearned 'hand-outs' that prevails across much of EUropean Citizenry. Brussels takes & disposes enormous sums at pan-EUropean/international level & Brussels has pushed repeatedly for the quick-fix solutions of the France Economy - - if there's a doubt give the workers more - - irrespective of what such largesses ultuimately entails.
Well, it's pay-back time through very little fault of the Worker, but they are the ones being made to pay and meanwhile Brussels marches on politically unreformed, economically unrepentant & power-aggrandisingly serene - - increasing its Budget, expanding its Departments, widening its encroachment of National sovereignty, pressing for 'ever closer union' and still blindly stating its supra-National Social Benefits/Conditions can be imporved when there is nothing but stagnation
UK/England stayed out of some of that supra-National fixation: For that Britons should be eternally grateful.
Whilst I am English & retired (well before 65) I do not oppose those who want to be in gainful active employment ovee that age. There are too, those who find they need to work on because they've not set aside enough or the recent economic debacles have left them short-changed.
I pity a lot of EUropean workers who unlike the more realistic British & Germans somehow believe all those entitlements that crept up under Brussels' leadership can & must be theirs even though it is 10 years since the books balanced in almost any of the EUro-zone 15!
That clot QOT goes on about 'aristocracy' etc. running G.B. when it is inside Brussels' EUrope that the cloistered cabals are determining everything - - they thought to keep opposition to the EU off the streets by the con-tricks of 'social' benefits, but now they have to be paid for - - Working longer, paying more Tax and getting less back in Benefits is what Brussels now has to sell to its 500,000,000 Citizens and it seems a fair number don't like Brussels' remedy for ills it created by its avaricious hunt for authority & power.
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"And then he tells us the obvious:
Greeks with their balanced body types and colours are the epitome of the superior man."
Well for such a superior race, the Greeks seem to be exceptionally prone to losing failing on every level.
They started a pointless war against the Young Turks and lost all their territories in Asia Minor plus a sizable portion of Thrace.
They have been depending on the "inferior" races of Northern Europe, economically and politically, ever since they joined the EU.
Prior to that, they just traipsed and stumbled from dictatorship to dictatorship, losing more and more credibility and influence in the world.
Now, they are completely bankrupt.
I rather like being a member of an inferior race if being superior means belonging to a nation of utter failures and losers, which is apparently the case here.
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MarcusAurellius
Your non-replies to my #216, #218 and #224 suggest an intellectual redundancy only surpassed by a total ignorance of the society in which you live.
You willingness to send Americans to their deaths to uphold those proven failings provides you with arrogance, but in no way implies a support further than Flag Waving at their funerals.
--- which fills you with pride.
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Re #244
Aristotle was a very great ancient and deservedly has a place in the pantheon of 'superior' Human Beings: Thus he is sat alongside Christ, Bhudda, Confucious, Archimedes, Mohammed, Da Vinci, Tagore, Darwin, Machiavelli, Beethoven, Newton, Pasteur, Rousseau, Voltaire, Shakespeare, Proust, Freud etc. (none of real military nature though some had their moments)
A mad-greek on the other hand...
Attributing personal trait & appearance of 21st Century to the ruminations of one among such lustrous company:
The mind boggles!
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Leo @#239
You presume that the majority of Europeans agree with ever closer integration but leaving that to one side as it has never been proven by popular vote, the fact IS that the UK is in the EU and has one of 27 equal votes in determining the future of the EU.
There is an assumption that because Germany and France do not wish for Turkey to join the EU that Turkey will not join the EU and that is far from the case as many of the more new member nations know exactly that it was because of British influence and persuasion that they got to join the EU Club - they know that Germany and France had to be persuaded to let them join the EU and that, but for the influence of Britain they would still be 'out in the cold'.
Turkey is on the path to compliance with the preconditions to join the EU through convergence and the end-date or target-date is still 2025 for Turkey to accede to full membership.
If Germany and France continue to prevaricate and ultimately succeed in barring Turkey from joining the EU that will result in many of the other 27 EU Nations seeing that the EU is an Emperor with No Clothes and that the EU is not there for the mutual benefit of all but a private club run entirely at the whim of Germany and France. That, ultimately, effects how the other EU member states will perceive Germany and France and the future of the EU.
On the other hand, if Turkey does join the EU in 2025 then the EU will be very much strengthened by the accession of Turkey as the influence of Germany and France will have become very much more diluted and, in fact the EU will have become a true Club - open to all and where all members DO have equal voice and choice.
Fears of the islamification of Europe should not be a bar to Turkey joining the EU as rules on convergence will ensure that Turkey remains secular and becomes more democratic and democracy is what links us all together in harmony despite we have to live together with all sorts of religious beliefs and practices around us.
True democracy will stifle fundamentalist religious fervour far better than isolation and exclusion.
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#241Powermeerkat
-- The answer is that the average Brit is BROKE--- as in America.
Both in the UK and USA the majority retire into poverty !
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Re #247
Chris, it seems that American redskins are actually white people who happeneded to spend long hours in the sun.
At least that's what we hear from at least one 'anthropologtst' re colour change of some ehtnic groups. :)
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cbw;
"The Lancet & other media around the world procliamed all sorts of incredible numbers of dead & wounded.
The numbers were ridiculous & suggested either a deliberate bias or an inarticulate & untrained lack of understanding of weaponry & logistics as great as the USA's failings post-invasion."
The Lancet just plain lied. I drew the conclusion immediately it was deliberate. Most of what Europeans said about the war were deliberate lies. Europe wanted to see America attacked again and again, and again because it was in a jealous rage and had no other hope of defeating it. Every common European policy from trade to global warming, to Iraq was intended to try to destroy America's power and influence in the world. That was the purpose of the EU. Chirac, Schroeder, and deVillepin made no bones about it. That is what they meant when they said they wanted a multipolar world. Instead of cooperating with America they wanted to challenge it and defeat it. And look at the outcome, they seem to have defeated themselves instead. Europe is getting its just rewards.
The Lancet's technique for generating its lies was simple. As I understood it they surveyed some families in neighborhoods in Baghdad where much of the violence was intense. They asked people how many in their family were killed as the result of the war. And of course many of them made up legions of familiy members who were killed including those who were still alive and well, including people who never existed. Without verifying any of it, Lancet extrapolated those numbers to the entire population of Iraq. That is how they came up with their preposterous number of 600,000 in about 1000 days of fighting. European media like BBC broadcast it like it was a fact. Bold headlines so to speak, with at most a small disclaimer in fine print at the bottom of the last page. Europe wanted a war with America and it got it. BBBC not only played a willing role, it led the charge in the English speaking world.
gfranco;
"I see your point Marcus, but I still can't quite understand the real reason for your cumulated hatred against us."
If it were possible for you to step outside of yourself and see yourself from a distance without any prejudice, your history, what you have made of yourselves, what you are, you'd understand way. Just look at this thread and the hatreds Europeans have for each other that consumes them. And then look at their hope of finding the same in Americans. I reject not only your civilization but most of the premises it is based on. I'll have nothing to do with it. But you can't see it. You are too blinded by being part of it. For you and others in Europe with your perspective, the world is still flat just the way it's always been. Small wonder you resent someone who not only lives on the other side of it beyond the horizon but has seen it from a distance and notices how small and unimportant Europe is. And then tells them so and that it isn't flat at all.
"Are you Christian Marcus?"
I have no religion. I've never had a religion. I never believed in the existance of god even one day, one minute, one second in my life. The religion of my forbearers is unimportant. I don't even know if they were committed to follow any of it. I see religion as a common mental affliction much the way Dawkins does only I have any hatred for people who are believers, I just feel sorry for them. (I do hate some of the things they do in the name of their religion though, especially their more heinous crimes.) It may bring them comfort but it also makes them vulnerable to do the stupidest things that are not in their own best interest. They throw away their time, energy, money, even risk and lose their lives to others who use them cynically. That is what religion is about including non theistic religions like Communism, Socialism, Fascism. Many of them are European inventions. I don't follow anyone, I march to the beat of my own drum.
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acorn, there is only so much of your idiocy I will reply to. You try the limits of my patience and forbearance. Your ego demands a response for every trite little thought that pops into your head. Throw your tantrum for your mother and father, maybe it will still work with them.
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247. At 10:53am on 29 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"""Greeks with their balanced body types and colours are the epitome of the superior man."""
"""Well for such a superior race, the Greeks seem to be exceptionally prone to losing failing on every level."""
You comment to a word "superior" as mentioned by Aristoteles and link it to me. It is not my fault if Aristoteles thought that of the Greeks. I am more interested in his descriptions which are identical to what there in Greece today.
From there on, you can make as many jokes as you like, only shows your personal complexes.
"""They started a pointless war against the Young Turks and lost all their territories in Asia Minor plus a sizable portion of Thrace."""
Get your facts right, British started and used the Greek army (when Greeks had voted overwhelmingly in favour of stop being allies to British) as a buffer army to be sacrificed for their geopolitical plans that were to give the control of Bosphorus to the newly established Turkish state. How do you think young turks crossed the sea to find themselves on the European side? Did they have boats or did they know how to swim? British gave them what they took there, british controlled the whole warfare from 1919 to 1922 and British covered the genocide of Greeks and even celebrated it during its execution. Not me saying, it has been the US diplomats of the time. Go call them liars. Go educate yourself, your level is deplorable.
249. At 11:15am on 29 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
Re #244
"""Aristotle was a very great ancient and deservedly has a place in the pantheon of 'superior' Human Beings: Thus he is sat alongside Christ, Bhudda, Confucious, Archimedes, Mohammed, Da Vinci, Tagore, Darwin, Machiavelli, Beethoven, Newton, Pasteur, Rousseau, Voltaire, Shakespeare, Proust, Freud etc"""
Christ and Mohamed are not even proven real people. Their place can't be next to the rest you mention since they did not do anything particular for the human civilisation other than their real or imaginery existence being used as a pretext to various religiopolitical groups of people to compile 100s of years after their supposed death, religious books and form new backwards religions that have provoked psychological problems to billions of people for the last 1500 years. The fact that they happened accidentally to influence human history does not make them great, anymore than the viruses Cortez and Pizzaro and their men brought to America exterminating inadvertedly the 90% of the 120 million American natives (if anything, they changed human history even more than jesus or mohamed).
"""A mad-greek on the other hand..."""
Yes mad with your catarract of lies and false accusations and blind propaganda. Go get yourself some education. It is never late. Better late than never.
"""Attributing personal trait & appearance of 21st Century to the ruminations of one among such lustrous company: The mind boggles!"""
I have already answered you with the following:
*It is aboslutely not me that opened this discussion. But every lowly attack against our roots will be answered. You should be ashamed.
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#247:
What you say is true. The thing is we Greeks are trying to kick out bad habits and interminglings from our genes acquired from 400 years of Turkish slavery.
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252. At 12:02pm on 29 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"""Re #247
Chris, it seems that American redskins are actually white people who happeneded to spend long hours in the sun.
At least that's what we hear from at least one 'anthropologtst' re colour change of some ehtnic groups. :)"""
If you were a bit more more informed you would know that climatological influence on skin is not always evident. African bushmen tribes have been living from the arguably cooler South Africa up to all over Eastern Africa maintaining lighter skin tones. African Bantu tribes that descended in South Africa in historic times did not become of lighter skin without the obvious case of intermingling with the local bushmen. On the other side of the Indian ocean, Australian Aboriginals were particularly dark (but often with blond or light brown hair curly or straight - quite surprising for some features) while the by now extinct by Anglosaxons Tasmanians were coal black while living in Tasmania for 10,000s of years and while Tasmania has particularly cool European-like climate. On the other side of the globe Inuit tribes have more links to to Thailandese and Vietnamese people than to other northern tribes such as Slavs or Nordics.
Anthropology is not for the semi-illiterate. It has nothing to do with preconceived ideas, either with superior or inferior tribes (like oeichler tries to find) either than the simplistic hot sun, black skin, no sun white skin. Get educated in the subject ot leave it.
Stop openning side issues. It is not going to change the fact that Turkey wants for "some" reasons to enter the EU and all Europeans apart the British want them out.
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Good day, pleasant minute everybody again :o)
The greedy mobile internet provider swallowed 790 roubles roughly 25 dollars in 2 hrs last night! and all stopped. I went this morn and fed another 400 roubles into a cash mach; don't know how long it will last this time :o)))
When you meet over-fed New Russians around - upon my word - some of them are mobile phones' people
(that's because anti-monopolisist comittee is toothless darling in Russia, can only reprimand the monsters :o))) or impose on them invisible fines :o)))))))), afraid to offend or annoy various VIPs)
Sharks! Sharks around me all over! :o)))))) 25 dollars a day for internet in the dacha (in the dacha within the city boundary, for a sec, not some place in Siberia) - that's something! I phoned them they explained it's because I played 2 youtube songs :o))))))))))
Anyway, BBC weather tells me we are in for a storm and rain and change of scandallous weather - towards normal pattern of +20.
Dog is full of diseases and own temperature and we hardly managed last 2 weeks - +40 inside the dog - plus 40 outside the dog. Got robbed by vets again and to no practical result as usual. Give him antibiotics against I don't know what and he himself took own measurtes - basically spends days under the house, crawling in there through a hole, into which I can not crawl and extract him out. When I get him out I measure his temp and do antibiotics' shots.
Scandallous weather, really, disaster. +39 for Northerners like yesterday - this is a shame and hell knows what.
Will read of all things Turkish surely later tonight (if we will survive till tonight). What is there to read! All things Turkish are here! The weather and the Turks themselves - all gasterbeiters from Uzbekistan and other -stans - standing in exactly those stands /"stans"/campuses on all dacha village corners - building houses for new Russians.
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Just too much ‘blabbering’ about Turkey not being European enough for EU. Looking at the membership of the EU, I see a lot of ex-protagonists, who are now happy making friends and money with each other.
Modern Turkey is the descendant of the Ottoman Empire, the conqueror of the hodgepodge Greek-Roman-European cultural off-shoot, the Byzantine Empire. The Turks had taken part in the European ‘war-scape’ whether against Western Europeans, Ottoman European War; allied with Western Europeans against Eastern Europeans, Crimean War; with other Western Europeans against other Western Europeans, WW1; and with European democracies against Communism, NATO membership. With such extensive involvement, the Turkey deserves a place in the European ‘peace-scape’, the EU.
Islam is of no forbearance with Turkey’s membership. The Turks were the ‘protector’ of Eastern Christian Orthodoxy in its birthplace, that even the British and the French cannot countenance Tsarist Russians owning that role, hence, the Crimean War. As for Christian solidarity, where was the Vatican and the rest when the Armenians were revolting. The Armenian Church is older than the Roman Church. Cyprus situation cannot be a detriment, just except it ‘settled’ as in Northern Island and Gibraltar or its Turkey’s ‘local problem’ as in Spain vis-à-vis ETA or Catalonia. The Greeks should just accept the status-quo in Cyprus and get on with saving the Euro currency, the Greeks’ current assigned task.
I would not mind adventuring into the brave new world where Turkey is a member of the EU, than, this procrastination in a polemical obstructionist debate of whether Turkey is ‘white’ enough for the EU. Turkey was involved, is involved in European affairs and deserved heightened involvement as an EU member.
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253. At 12:23pm on 29 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"""Most of what Europeans said about the war were deliberate lies."""
Like what?
"""Europe wanted to see America attacked again and again, and again because it was in a jealous rage and had no other hope of defeating it."""
Europeans do not want to see America attacked since that means more US aggressiveness.
What Europeans say simply is that these orchestrated attacks against US are actually organised by Americans themselves, i.e. inner circles inside US. THe case of 2001 attacks can't be more obvious.
"""Every common European policy from trade to global warming, to Iraq was intended to try to destroy America's power and influence in the world."""
That is what you translate out of Europe's wish to stop serving the American's power and influence in the world.
Give a German or a French a single reason to run behind your tail. Why can't these people have their own policies instead of running behind you? As a group EU is almost 2 times as populous as US, it is nearer the worlds' markets and ressources. It does not need US in anything at all. US buy mostly from China. US's relationship with Europe is a pUmping one. US controls and/or tries to control the energy provisions of Europe so as to blackmail it to remain under US influence.
You understand that this is no healthy relationship. And it is only the unhealthy European political forces that wish to continue under the old tired sick US alliance. US has absolutely nothing to offer to US (no protection but war, no commerce but crises and expensive energy, no traderoutes without paying the fee to US, no major commerce at all - when was the last time Americans bought European planes, cars, trains, ships, weapons, in sufficient quantities to call it commerce?). Nothing. Nada.
"""That was the purpose of the EU. Chirac, Schroeder, and deVillepin made no bones about it."""
They knew what they were talking about. Thanks to Shroedder Germany will have cheap Russian gas and won't go cold in the next 50 years. They have to built a monument to this man. If they had Angela back then, I would tell them where their industries would be in the next 20 years (when they beg for a bit of cheaper fuel...).
"""That is what they meant when they said they wanted a multipolar world. """"
Does it bother you? What is your problem with the multi-polar world? You keep saying you want US out of Europe and other parts of the world, yet you just hate the idea of a multipolar world, you can't accept there other players on this planet that do not have to follow you and who wish to see you out of their neighbourhood.
"""Instead of cooperating with America they wanted to challenge it and defeat it."""
Co-operate in what MAII? What? In being pUmped? In paying the pUmp?
"""And look at the outcome, they seem to have defeated themselves instead. Europe is getting its just rewards."""
No, Europe is simply under attack by he US (and the usual suspect, Britain). Anyone knows it, but to maintain the facade, we don't tend to shout it loud.
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Re #251
a comment form HYS: [re DRA]]
"I don't want to retire at 65 because my job's so great! Surely it's those whose work is a boring, meaningless or just hard drudge, for whom I have the utmost sympathy, who are - literally - leading "sad lives". I think your post shows a failure of imagination."
Well said Brian. In fact, you are more charitable than me - I don't share your sympathy for those in drudge jobs. If you can't find enjoyment in your job then get another job. If you can't get another job then get another skill."
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Re #249 (CBW on"military moments" in bios of great people.)
Copernicus (who proved that Ptolemy was a village idiot) fortified Frombork and defended it succesfully during Teutonic Knights' siege, although he was a priest. :)
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245. At 10:36am on 29 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"...Turks are quite reknowned for their diplomatic skills, much more than any of their Greek, Bulgarian, Armenian, Georgian or Syrian neighbors..."
Turk politicians are doing reknowned diplomacy because they rely upon slaves (the Turks)
Greek politicians can't do that...you see...they rely upon a country with no citizens because
every single Greek is a "president" by itself and by that hard to control them
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and, powermeer, I remember you were worried a while ago how the Russian spies are doing on return home :o)))) - glad to inform you things are fine ;o)))))) (with the spies, at least); newspapers inform Putin held a formal welcome back home party with them :o)))))))))) Seriously, a formal reception - they had some refreshments or whatever and "sang a song together "From What Motherland Begins"
I know the tune, sure, it goes:
From what one's Motherland begins?
From pictures in your ABC.
From good and old friends who live in the neighbour yard
Or, it can be, that native land starts for you
From a ditty, that your Mum sang to you
From simple things that in hard life circumstances - one never forgets.
Can just imagine the sweet party they had :o))))))
Anyway, Putin said the failure is the result of treason, and he "doubts in the good future for the treacherous folks, as they usually end life badly dying under someone's fence or die from unknown things" :o))))))))))))))))))
So all is fine and wonderful.
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Well, kalimera Nick! Thanks again, I also really enjoy reading your comments...It is next to useless to expect the average Western or Northern European to have insight in the complex realities of our region, let alone its ancient history...that's partly why EU and American policies are so misguided and counterproductive, I guess.
You often hear something like "...the stupid, backward Balkan nations prefer to be lazy and live in the past, rather than be pragmatic, modern, work more, forget the past, live in the present, etc."
And then I quickly remember conflicts such as Ireland/Northern Ireland, the Basque region, Belgium, Gibraltar, etc. So easy to tickle your ego by claiming superiority over the peolpe in another part of Europe. And so naive.
As regards the influence of "donme" (din-donme)politicians in Turkish affairs - this is a sad, tragically ironic fact - Turkey have for centuries been able to use the talant and energy of "our own blood" to its advantage, and to further its expansionist agenda. I really didn't know that about Davatoglu (thanks for mentining it), but I certainly know very well about the actual origins of Kemal and the majority of "Young Turks". But, as you know this policy goes very far back - the janissaries/devshirme, the mostly forced islamization of Orthdox Christians all over the Balkans (Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania). They are using these populations to this very day, for the very same purposes...
The same has been true for the Kurds for centuries. Except for regular army units, the Ottomans used (with great success) the then nomadic Kurds to slaughter the Armenian and other Christian populations of Anatolia. The Kurds participated enthusiastically (what irony!) for two weasons - plunder and religios fanaticism. Traditionally the Turks have used several factors to ensure the loyalty of the Kurds - religion, the clan, or tribal structure of Kurdish population (bribing/arming some clan leaders and using them to suppress other clans), land/water distribution policies, resettlements, blood feuds, etc. Some Kurds were encouraged to patricipate in the mainstream politicas of Turkey - the former president Turgut Ozal was Kurdish and a fervent Turkish nationalist. The armed forces were an important instrument for indoctrinating some of the Kurds - young Kurdish men were encouraged to enlist and preferrentially entrolled in the military academies, then they rose quickly to high ranks. Not any more however - this policy has been quietly reversed, since the Turks no longer trust the Kurds and see no point in providing military training to them. Most of these policies, however generally became less and less effective, with the rise of Kurdish national feelings and the establishment of the leftist, PKK and its "legalized" political representatives.The whole policy of Turkey in Southeastern Anatolia is slowly but steadily unravelling, and at present there is a creeping note of quiet desperation in Ankara - they seem to be running out of ideas what to do with the Southeastern/Eastern provinces and the population there. It remains to be seen whether official Ancara is able to come up with something more successful in terms of policy...
As regards the energy supply routes (South Stream/Nabucco, etc.), yes Turkey is very active trying to beefit from both projects, no matter how the US and Britain try, Nabucco is doomed, it's dead in the water, because there is no supplly of gas for it. The Russians have basically bought virtually all the gas from the Turkic cousins of Ankara - the Azeris, the Turkmens (so much for pan-Turkic brotherhood) and will block all attempts to build a pipeline across the Caspian Sea. Without the reserves of Iran, Nabucco is as good as dead, and the US and Britain are not on good terms with Iran, to put it mildly :-)...Turkey cannot even agree with Azerbaijan on Nabucco, despite their mother/child relationship.
Turkey will get a share in South Stream, but it is a smaller one - they will get some money for allowing some of the pipe to go through Turkish territorial waters, but that's it - once the pipe is there, it's there and Turkey has virtually no control over the flow of gas, while with Nabucco it would have been a major player. Anyway, Turkey will benefit from both projects, although to a different extent.
Turkey will be very happy, if the planned Burgas/Alexandrupolis oil pipeline fails, because, if accomplished, this pipeline will allow the Russian oil to bypass the Bosphorus, and go stright to Greece overland. This is very unpleasant for Turkey, because it will lose a lot of money and will make Greece much more energy independent.
Turkey has also recently signed an agreement with Russia for the building of 4 nuclear reactors (the first in the country), for the building of an oil pipeline across the Anatolia to the Mediterranean (the Russian twin of Baku/Ceylan) and for the doubling of the capacity of the existing Blue Stream gas pipeline. So it is becoming a strategic partner with Russia in the energy game. They have also shown willingness to buy more Russian weaponry, and may increase such buys/cooperation, especially in view of the rapid deterioration of the relationship with Israel. All these developments, naturally make Washington increasingly nervous.
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Nik;
So much Eurobabble, so little incentive to reply.
"253. At 12:23pm on 29 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"""Most of what Europeans said about the war were deliberate lies."""
Like what? "
Likie America invaded Iraq to steal its oil for starters. Not only did America not steal one drop of Iraqi oil, with the trillion dollars it spent fighting the war and rebuilding Iraq it could have bought years and years of US oil nees at market prices. Not only a lie but a particularly obvious and stupid one.
""""Europe wanted to see America attacked again and again, and again because it was in a jealous rage and had no other hope of defeating it."""
Europeans do not want to see America attacked since that means more US aggressiveness."
Of course they did. That is why France and Germany didn't merely abstain on another UN Security Council resolution threatening military action if Iraq didn't cooperate with the inspectors, but they actively worked to get others to vote no and France used its veto. France and Germany will eventually receive their fair punishment for their betrayal.
"What Europeans say simply is that these orchestrated attacks against US are actually organised by Americans themselves, i.e. inner circles inside US. THe case of 2001 attacks can't be more obvious."
This kind of idiocy is hardly worth responding to. You're through.
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The Macaroon is proving to be one big coconut. In less than a week he unnecessarily injected Britain into the conflict between Greece and Turkey coming out on Turkey's side and against his fellow EU member Greece, then he injected Britain into the dispute between India and Pakistan coming out on the side of India. How will Pakistanis and those with attachments to Pakistan living in the UK react? I understand there are a fairly large number of them.
There is still time for him to alienate more countries before the week is over. Who's next?
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259. At 1:15pm on 29 Jul 2010, sayasay wrote:
"""Just too much ‘blabbering’ about Turkey not being European enough for EU."""
And too much faulty advertising about Turks by Turks. But you still keep avoiding to tell us why you want to join the EU? What is it?
"""Looking at the membership of the EU, I see a lot of ex-protagonists, who are now happy making friends and money with each other."""
So? What is the point?
"""Modern Turkey is the descendant of the Ottoman Empire, the conqueror of the hodgepodge Greek-Roman-European cultural off-shoot, the Byzantine Empire."""
Ooooooooooo po po po po po po .... the conqueror... what complexes do you Turks suffer to be in constant need of trying to put labels such as "conqueror", "power", "strong", on yourselfs.
For the historic record, Ottomans managed to conquer no Empire. The Byzantine Empire you swear at had been the most progressive one of the Middle Ages and longest Empire ever in human history being there for nearly 1000 years before it got conquered by the Crusaders of the 4th crusade. Turks (the bunch of Ottomans, Seljuks) only founded their backward, downright primitive Ottoman Empire over the region that was by then centuries fragmented into small feuds of either catholic crusaders or local orthodox in constant warfare. We are talking about 250 years which is a huge time. Given the timescales and the first effort of Seljuk Turks to enter Minor Asia, it took almost 500 years Turks to conquer the region and they did it only after 250 years of the collapse of the Empire to the which by no means entitles Turks to call it a proper conquest. Not to mention that Turks never yielded control in quite large parts of the Balkans (Cretan mountainous regions, Epirot regions, parts of Peloponese, the whole range of the Ionian islands) and were incapable of even dealing with cities of miniscule size like the by then failed Venice and Genova.
"""The Turks had taken part in the European ‘war-scape’ whether against Western Europeans, Ottoman European War; allied with Western Europeans against Eastern Europeans, Crimean War; with other Western Europeans against other Western Europeans, WW1; and with European democracies against Communism, NATO membership."""
So what? Pretty much most Asian, African and Latin American countries did the same.
"""With such extensive involvement, the Turkey deserves a place in the European ‘peace-scape’, the EU."""
Some nice logic there. Deserves for having done what, you avoid telling us?
"""Islam is of no forbearance with Turkey’s membership."""
Yes, no problem with it no matter if you use it as an arm of genocide, ethnic cleansing and playing with ethnic hatreds in he region. Very european attitude indeed!
"""The Turks were the ‘protector’ of Eastern Christian Orthodoxy in its birthplace,"""
Oh oh oh ... I loved the term protector, go tell that to the beheaded patriarchs that dared not repeat the murderous barbaric sultans' words. Ottomans simply used the church as a means of control of christians, they would not want it to go outside their control would they? I never underestimated the cunning tricks of Turkish diplomacy.
"""that even the British and the French cannot countenance Tsarist Russians owning that role, hence, the Crimean War."""
Actually you tell us your services to the Imperial British and expansionist French of the 19th and ezarly 20th century - i.e. what EU tries to leave back? Very nice argument.
"""As for Christian solidarity, where was the Vatican and the rest when the Armenians were revolting. The Armenian Church is older than the Roman Church."""
No European spoke of religion, that thingie does not interest us. We only said that we do consider the muslim Turks Asiatics and a culture that is totally different to ours. Both as a culture and as a country structure it is totally out of phase with what we consider as compatible to EU. Is it so difficult to understand? What? You feel bad about it? You feel rejected or something?
The question remains: why do you wish to enter the EU.
"""Cyprus situation cannot be a detriment, just except it ‘settled’ as in Northern Island and Gibraltar or its Turkey’s ‘local problem’ as in Spain vis-à-vis ETA or Catalonia. The Greeks should just accept the status-quo in Cyprus and get on with saving the Euro currency, the Greeks’ current assigned task."""
Yes. But wait a minute, just before you enter the EU, Greeks will do the same solution as you propose above for Konstantinople and Smyrna. We will send our army, kick out the 100% of Turks, slaughter any Turks (throat slit as Turks used) that insist to remain in their house (and do you know what to their wifes and daughters by the age of 12 to 70 if we find them there like Turks did in Cyprus), take their lands, take their houses, then move inside 1-2 million Greeks to populate the region and then ask you to accept the status quo.
Won't you accept the status quo? Just above you proposed the same solution, thank you for telling us how we have to make deals with you!!!!!!
"""I would not mind adventuring into the brave new world where Turkey is a member of the EU, than, this procrastination in a polemical obstructionist debate of whether Turkey is ‘white’ enough for the EU."""
Who mentioned "white"? We say that your violent aggressive and backwards culture is incompatile to the modern European cultures of 2010. Your US-obedient state will be a hinderance in the EU politics. There is no benefit for Europeans with Turks inside, only trouble. Why would Europeans want you inside then?
The question remains:
Why do you want to be in the EU?
"""Turkey was involved, is involved in European affairs and deserved heightened involvement as an EU member."""
Deserve for what? What involvement? Last involvement Turks had with Europeans was:
1) The genocide of Greeks in 1910-1922
2) The genocide of Armenians in 1915-1922
3) The pogroms of Greeks in 1955
4) The total ethnic cleansing of Greeks remaining in Turkey by 1970s
5) The invasion and total ethnic cleansing of northern Cyprus
Do you plan to use the above as arguments for Turkey's links to Europe and its "deserving" to enter the EU?
Answer to the point.
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MarcusAureliusII @#267
Actually I find David Cameroon slightly refreshing with his speeches to foreign audiences. He is not playing the usual British Leadership game of playing dumb so as not to offend but actually saying what he thinks.
As regards Greece versus Turkey, so what? Greece would be unhappy with Turkey joining the EU whatever the state of the convergence of Turkey towards meeting the criteria to make Turkey worthy of membership.
As regards Pakistan, I find his candour rather honest. If Osama Bin Laden is still alive and well then hi is most likely to be in Pakistan. Much of the munitions and warriors attacking UN Forces in Afghanistan are coming over the border from and it is quite clear that the wikileaks information specifically pinpoints that the Pakistanis ARE NOT preventing the export of Terror - either this is deliberate or it is by lack of effort. What David Cameron is saying to Pakistan is true ... they may not like it but the candour is refreshing as it is not something that any previous USA or UK Politician has been prepared to say.
The biggest offence has probably been taken by Israel with David Cameron's reference to the Gaza Strip being a prison. I happen to think he is right and Israel really needs to have her 'friends' be candid and tell it to them straight otherwise there will never be any hope of peace in the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
It unusual for any politician to be quite so candid but it does reveal that Cameron has more substance than he has previously been given credit for possessing.
Whether other nations will listen and react positively is but another thing altogether but candour is at least telling it as it is and that is unusual and to be applauded in my view.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#262. At 1:33pm on 29 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote
"Copernicus (who proved that Ptolemy was a village idiot) fortified Frombork and defended it succesfully during Teutonic Knights' siege, although he was a priest. :)"
Who was the guy the Polish catholic church recently burried?
(well, I mean, other than the ex-president:))
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"France and Germany will eventually receive their fair punishment for their betrayal."
lol, you get more and more amusing by the minute. Aside from your tortuous attempts at trying fumble through the idea that Europeans wanted to see America attacked "again and again" (that is probably the reason European soldiers are fight and dying in Afghanistan for America as we speak), I'd be curious what your idea of "betrayal" is. In my book, you can betray someone you are married with, or a fellow soldier or a colleague. What moral obligation did Europeans have for being in favour of the war in Iraq?
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266. At 1:58pm on 29 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"""Likie America invaded Iraq to steal its oil for starters. Not only did America not steal one drop of Iraqi oil, with the trillion dollars it spent fighting the war and rebuilding Iraq it could have bought years and years of US oil nees at market prices. Not only a lie but a particularly obvious and stupid one."""
- The "Americans went to Iraq for oil" is a simplistic explanation though Europeans are right to say so since Americans cancelled ALL European contracts with Saddam that would have Iraq selling oil directly to the EU without any US involvement and without the use of any other currencies other than the euro. Americans did not go there just to "save" the oil for their account, but first of all to save the dollar. Don't you ever wonder where the term "petrodollar" came? Haven't you red about the biggest scum of the 20th century, that is the petrodollar?
""""Europe wanted to see America attacked again and again, and again because it was in a jealous rage and had no other hope of defeating it."""
Europeans do not want to see America attacked since that means more US aggressiveness."
"""Of course they did. That is why France and Germany didn't merely abstain on another UN Security Council resolution threatening military action if Iraq didn't cooperate with the inspectors, but they actively worked to get others to vote no and France used its veto. France and Germany will eventually receive their fair punishment for their betrayal."""
- But why would you expect Europeans to play the game of weapons of mass destruction? Everyone knew it was a farse. The fact that they refused to play that game is taken by you and translated into Europeans hating Americans and wishing them to be attacked. Which is a huge logical leap.
"What Europeans say simply is that these orchestrated attacks against US are actually organised by Americans themselves, i.e. inner circles inside US. THe case of 2001 attacks can't be more obvious."
"""This kind of idiocy is hardly worth responding to. You're through."""
I do not know what to say more to you. Have you ever consulted civil engineers to explain to you how buildings can present a free fall??? .... 2ice in the same day?... You logic defies the basic law of physics. Buildings collapse randomly unless falling under a prepared controlled demolishion, i.e. what we saw that morning. I know it is hard to accept the fact that 1000s of Americans died by a US-originated act but you better follow the 30% of your co-citizens (and these are patriotic people, no traitors or anti-americans there) who share the above view.
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#258. At 1:09pm on 29 Jul 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote
"Sharks! Sharks around me all over! :o)))))) 25 dollars a day for internet in the dacha (in the dacha within the city boundary, for a sec, not some place in Siberia) - that's something! I phoned them they explained it's because I played 2 youtube songs :o))))))))))"
Maybe they didn't realise it was a dacha, maybe they mistook it for a palace and charged accordingly:)))
I always thought that youtube was "over-rated" ha ha ha :)))
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#250. At 11:19am on 29 Jul 2010, Menedemus wrote
"True democracy will stifle fundamentalist religious fervour far better than isolation and exclusion"
It takes much more than true democracy, it takes education and also giving people opportunities!
Here is the UK we have a a form of "true enough democracy" but we also have fundamentalist religious fervour!
In the US they also have some form of "true democracy", but they still also have fundamentalist religious fervour, for them it comes mainly from the followers of the christian faith!
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Myxedema;
"He is not playing the usual British Leadership game of playing dumb so as not to offend but actually saying what he thinks."
The Macaroon isn't playing dumb, he is dumb and he has offended without purpose or effect. You don't humiliate other governments and other nations in public if you are a leader unless there is a purpose to be served, a goal. What did this accomplish, what will it accomplish that is to the UK's benefit? Nothing. All he accomplished is to make the headlnes and get some people angry at him. Useless, just like his prececessors, all of them...except for Thatcher.
If you are the leader of a nation, sometimes it is best to say what you think in private and sometimes it is best to say nothing at all. Every time The Macaroon opens his mouth he seems to put both of his feet in it.
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Of Turkey haven't read anything in particular in Russian media lately, all goes as usual. Except for the nuclear energy plants signed recently (mentioned above) that we will build (and, unusually - own as well). Like, Russian ones, on Turkish land, selling energy to Turkey. Risky thing as many have commented here, as a nuclear plant is not that kind of property that one can pick up and walk away with :o))))) if there happen any aggravations of Russian-Turkish relations.
Of interesting articles read an opinion of institute of political analysis head who wrote USA-Iran in October :o(
Preventive and all, because of some elections' round in the USA.
And he wrote that the USA can do many things, among them, when they get into elections' regime :o) - they cast away considerations other and make such swell mistakes, like, Dear me!
:o)))
Oct because of climate and elections and some sanctions the USA imposed on Iran recently - which is a sure sign the USA are in a pre-war stage, as they always do it historically. Like the USA cut off Japan of their only energy supplies back in 1941, preventively. Which left Japan with 2 options only - to surrender at once or to attack :o)))))
Effects for us (Russia) will be bad in total.
On one hand, that war will be good in terms of money - oil prices will go up - which is good (for some :o)))) here)
On the other hand, China feeds of energy from those quarters, will be very unhappy with the war, will look for alternative energy supplies actively, will turn attention towards Russia invariably, will not buy energy from us peacefully decently and quietly like Europe does - but will buy shares instead and very aggressively. And, given the level off morals in Russia :o)))) - and the fact that Chinese investors, unlike European investors, are not scared of our business climate a bit :o))) - Chinese companies will buy what they want , from the energy companies in the territories beyond Urals :o(
Will buy and we will sell.
Thus putting our control over own beyond-Ural belongings at risk :o(
So, monetary, such a war is good for Russia - but who sees those monies ever! :o))))
And in terms of land control - bad:o(
Those damn elections. hell knows where!
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"They started a pointless war against the Young Turks and lost all their territories in Asia Minor plus a sizable portion of Thrace."
Indeed, I will agree with Nik but also there was another point in that war. During the time we had a King...and of course he wouldn't be a Greek King, instead he came from the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg...hardly a Greek surname despite of the name Constantine! I believe he was the second son to the Danish monarchy, which took it upon himself to promote the campaign and the belief they would be able to reach Ankara! What he would accomplish there I haven't got a clue, but there you go...
Unfortunately he was hardly a military genious despite being head of the army, and apparently hadn't studied previous warfare... since something called at least as a direct translation "burned earth", employed by the Greeks in multitude of battles during ancient and even medieval times and possible all over the world, was used against him with great effectiveness, lured the army way ahead of their supply lines and possible fortifications and then quickly counterattacked with the ensueing history.
There were elements against the king and the war, however they were unsuccessful, I will not go to details about their efforts.
"Prior to that, they just traipsed and stumbled from dictatorship to dictatorship, losing more and more credibility and influence in the world."
Indeed?!? I believe we had 2 dictatorships... the first one that coincided with Greece being involved in WW II, the ultimatum sent from Italy's Moussolini and the dictator's reply with a resounded No.
The second dictatorship was during the years 1967-1974... They were directly responsible for the attack and defense in Cyprus which they failed to deal with. Later on, the involvement of other countries being the motivators in this dictaroship has been admitted.
So do we really stumble from one to the other? the first one became almost non-existant because it coincided with WW II, there will be people that don't know we had a dictator at the time because of his vehemence to not join the Axon.
You might mean constant warfare instead of dictatorships... and yes after WW II, there was the civil war, with Britain and Churchill as the main instigators that split Greece into communists (the WW II resistance) and royalists...since his plan was to make Greece a mirror of Britain and install tha monarchy again. And then came the second dictatorship. Did all these events hurt Greece? Absolutely! In all ways possible. However, it was Britain initiating the civil war (we might have done it ourselves anyway and of course we had a hand in it) and the dictatorship afterwards being instigated from other countries. So of course Greece was creepled, but it wasn't because of a choice of the population.
It would be nice to continue with the main purpose of the comments which were about Turkey and EU. Instead it has become a discussion about how we are Greeks or not Greeks, what do we look like and other irrelevant comments...including mine.
To return to the subject, it is surprising to know that Greece is actually one of the countries that supports the Turkish bid for EU membership. I'm talking about Greek policy and how each government has seen it. They want the main reforms that EU has suggested (forced?) to be enforced by Turkey, but also support the bid. The goverments view is that with Turkey in the EU, a lot of the disputes between Greece and Turkey will be resolved. I'm not as optimistc about it as our goverment is.
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It seems to me that a number of posters here are bent on reaching back into history in order to find reasons why Turkey's application should not be considered. You might just as well reach back to the period of the military junta in Greece, Salazar in Portugal, Franco in Spain - even Hitler in Germany and cite these as reasons why those countries should not have been included. What matters is the situation which pertains now.
Does Turkey meet the standards required in terms of democratic institutions? Yes, it is a parliamentary democracy within the definition required.
Does it meet the requirements with regard to human rights and freedom of expression? Recent experience in blocking access to some elements of Facebook, for example, suggest that progress is required in the area of information technology. The issue of the Kurds is somewhat more complicated than some posters appear to think. The PKK is an organisation currently set on a course requiring an independent Kurdish state and using insurgency means to achieve this. It is regarded by most countries as a terrorist organisation and, as such, the authorities are entitled to respond. Were this not the case, Spain would not qualify because of issues with ETA, the UK would not have qualified during the armed struggle with the IRA and so on. The question is whether or not Kurds who are not involved with the armed struggle enjoy their legitimate rights under law. my understanding is that they do but I am open to correction.
North Cyprus. It is certainly the case that Turkey was directly involved in the invasion and separation of this territory but the local government is elected in an appropriate way. It is evident that a solution will have to be found even if it involves partition as a short term solution pending admission of the new state into the EU. However, a continued Turkish military presence is unacceptable and the issue will have to be resolved. Until that time, the 'green line' is stable and there is no military conflict.
Facing up to the past. It was central to the formation and stability of the EEC that former Axis powers accepted the atrocities of the past and ensured that something similar could not occur in the future. I believe that Turkey must cease to be in denial of the Armenian persecution. Whether or not it amounted to genocide is a matter of semantics about which historians will argue indefinitely. The simple truth is that monstrous acts were committed and acknowledgment of them is required.
If these conditions are met, I can see no reason why the Turkish application should not be considered on its merits.
But it is not that simple . . . there are the cultural issues.
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Menedemus,
Re: 250
‘You presume that the majority of Europeans agree with ever closer integration but leaving that to one side as it has never been proven by popular vote, the fact IS that the UK is in the EU and has one of 27 equal votes in determining the future of the EU.
There is an assumption that because Germany and France do not wish for Turkey to join the EU that Turkey will not join the EU and that is far from the case as many of the more new member nations know exactly that it was because of British influence and persuasion that they got to join the EU Club - they know that Germany and France had to be persuaded to let them join the EU and that, but for the influence of Britain they would still be 'out in the cold'.
Turkey is on the path to compliance with the preconditions to join the EU through convergence and the end-date or target-date is still 2025 for Turkey to accede to full membership.’
Turkey may well be on the path of EU membership and Britain may well succeed in getting it in. However, not only will that not improve the ‘democratic deficit of the EU’ but will only show the empty rethoric behind all the calls about ‘popular vote’ we have been hearing in Britain.
I wonder where the popular vote was, which allowed D. Cameron to talk about fighting for Turkey’s EU membership? Certainly not in Britain, if the yesterday’s poll on the Daily mail web-site was anything to go by.
If the UK continues to push for the Turkish entry in the EU, this will fly in the face of the popular opinion not only in other European countries, but at home as well. After years of reluctantly dragging its feet regarding all EU matters, Britain has now found itself in the position of having to decry the Franco-British dominance in the EU, for which it has only itself to blame. In order to make up for this lack of influence and to find dearly needed allies, the British Government is yet again trying to use short-term solutions (i.e. promoting Turkey’s entry) to the detriment of everybody else, including its own citizens. Citizens who will have to face a massive wave of poor, uneducated economic immigrants, who would no doubt contribute enormously to stocking further the simmering uneasiness about the so-called islamisation of Europe and Britain. Despite all the plans to the contrary Britain might still find itself in the position of having as an ally in the EU an underdeveloped, poor, yet populous muslim country, while at the same time facing the opposition of all other EU member states, aghast at the sight of the newly arrived immigrants at their doorsteps.
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.tkaz wrote: Turkey is part of Europe
No it's not.
and has a great deal to offer the rest of Europe
No it doesn't.
Istanbul was the capital of the Eastern ROMAN Empire, where Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Eastern Roman empire, and where much of eastern Europe was governed from in not the so far distant past.
Governed from? You mean OPPRESSED from.
The Turks are working hard to bring their people as well as their economy up to par for joining the European Community.
I do not care. Turkey is not Europe. Never has been. Never will be.
We here at least appreciate the support that the Turks have shown us.
Let them into YOUR union then. See how the American people would like that (my guess: not one bit).
.cool_brush_work wrote:
Aristotle was a very great ancient and deservedly has a place in the pantheon of 'superior' Human Beings: Thus he is sat alongside Christ, Bhudda, Confucious, Archimedes, Mohammed, Da Vinci, Tagore, Darwin, Machiavelli, Beethoven, Newton, Pasteur, Rousseau, Voltaire, Shakespeare, Proust, Freud etc. (none of real military nature though some had their moments)
Why do you list a notorious mass murderer, slave trader and warmonger along with those other people you mention?
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Nik;
We know eactly how the twin towers collapsed. The heat from the burning jet fuel eventually caused the structurel members on the floor where the fire was to weaken as it got hot enough. That is what happens to steel when it is heated, it becomes structurally weaker. When the columns could no longer support the weight of the floors above that steel collapsed and started a cascade failure where the floors pancaked one on top of another, each floor increasing the total weight on the floors below it. The jets were large fully fueled transcontinental jets, one from Kennedy airport just minutes after takeoff, the other from Boston only about a half hour from takeoff.
The crime was admitted to on tape by Osama Bin Laden as he and his co-conspirators congratulated each other at their success of murdering 3000 civilians. The weight of evidence supporting the theory that he was the mastermind is overwhelming. Only liars deny it and blame someone else. What's your next theory, that the Jews did it? We've heard that lie from Israel bashers and America bashers a lot too.
BTW, how's service in Greece these days? Anyone going to work anymore or is the army dragging people out of bed at gunpoint yet?
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266.MarcusAureliusII wrote: Of course they did. That is why France and Germany didn't merely abstain on another UN Security Council resolution threatening military action if Iraq didn't cooperate with the inspectors, but they actively worked to get others to vote no and France used its veto. France and Germany will eventually receive their fair punishment for their betrayal.
France did so to protect its own (state company ELF oil) corrupt oil deals with Saddam, which had been made in violation of the embargo. France being the #1 violator of said embargo. France wasn't acting out of altruistic motives, but selfish ones (as France nearly always does).
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The cultural issues depend on your view of the role of religion within the European identity. There are those who clearly believe that Christianity is one of the building blocks of the European identity and that deviation from this norm somehow makes people alien to the culture. This view takes no account of the fact that there are very large numbers of second and third generation Muslims who are as of right citizens of the EU and resident here. These people are especially numerous in France, the UK, Germany and northern Europe. There are certainly issues arising from alternative cultural practices within these communities - as witness the recent debate about the veil and France in a recent thread. However, simply to characterise Europe as an essentially Christian culture is effectively to consign non- Christians to some kind of second class status. This is obviously unacceptable given that the eventual solidification of Europe (if it occurs) requires stability in the Balkans and, with that comes acknowledgment of Bosnia and Albania as Muslim countries.
To use cultural and religious differences as a reason to exclude Turkey becomes irrelevant. The EU is, by definition, a multi-cultural, multi-cultural and multi-ethic society - as indeed are many member states. To pretend otherwise is an exercise in futility and a denial of the facts on the ground.
Which brings us quite neatly to geography . . .
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Geography . . .
The line between Europe and Asia is drawn for quite arbitrary reasons through points of geographical convenience and is, in itself pretty meaningless. For centuries, we have used terms like "the Middle East" and "Asia Minor" as convenient cover for the fact that there is no particular point where east meets west. If you look southwards across the Turkish border, you are looking in to the Middle East - but into Asia? Is Lebanon Asian? Is Israel? Is Syria? - Middle Eastern certainly, Arab possibly - but Asian?
Look northwards over the Black Sea and what do you see? Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, Russia and Georgia. How recently were we hearing the case for Georgia being embraced into the European family? What are the issues currently occupying the political debate in Ukraine? They may be geopolitical but they are not geographical. The geography argument simply does not hold water (least of all the silly little strip which marks the so-called boundary).
Which leaves us with the only argument which really matters - the pragmatic one . . .
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ChrisArta @#275
You are right that in the UK there is Fundametalist Religious Fervor but you are wrong that we have true democracy.
If we had true democracy then the majority would render minorities with terrorist or fundamentalist agendas obsolete but in fact being of a minority in the UK gives minorities far more voice than their numbers deserve.
The UK has created for itself a delusion that by ensuring that minorities have more power than they warrant that the UK is democratic as we are led to believe that democracy IS ensuring that any minority has more power than the majority and it is not uncommon for minorities groups to achieve and usurp power through their threats or their political machinations. The silent majority look on in bewilderment and find that being part of a majority is more ineffectual than being part of a minority.
That is not democracy and it never will be as a true democracy would empower the majority and circumscribe any minority until the next vote came around. If the majority want to empower a minority group they could do so; similarly, in a true democracy the majority can limit or even proscribe a minority if the majority so wishes.
Sure, all British adults have a vote but it does not deliver anything other than the same-old, same-old as regards politicians and once elected, politicians will toe the party-line for the most part and not consider the needs of the majority preferring to listen to the siren voices of minority groups and always going out of their way not to offend those minorities for fear of loss of votes at the next election.
The UK has a kind of Pragmatismocracy but it is not as democratic a society as we, the citizens, might be led to believe.
A case in example is that clearly the majority of Britons would be happy with a cap on immigration into the UK if doorstep vote canvassing at the recent General Election was anything to go by. The Tory Manifesto was to ensure an Immigration Cap is put in place and the Coalition agreed to this policy being implemented. However, as soon as India says, "Hey, but we want to send all our IT guys over there rather than use local IT talent!", the Immigration Cap is shredded to see if the UK Government can create a workaround that allows more Indians to come into the UK to do IT jobs that many British-born IT people could just as easily do. All talk of there not being sufficient IT Staff available in the UK is nonsense - I should know having been in IT Documentation System Design & Engineering for several years before I took early retirement and know how many British-born IT people we have got available in the UK for contract and permanent work.
The adulteration of the Immigration Cap will be made to pander to a minority of Indian Business Leaders whose siren voices are louder then the many, many British-born IT personnel who are there ready and waiting to help Indian Businesses operate within the UK. Unfortunately for them, the politicians will pragmatically see that it is better to pander to the siren voices than create jobs for British-born IT workers.
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And the pragmatic argument is so simple it is transparent.
From the British point of view - it is essential for UK policy to proceed as they would wish to break the cosy alliance between Paris, Berlin and Benelux. Dilution is the obvious solution and that is why they have enthusiastically pursued enlargement. In some ways, it can be seen as successful. Most of the recent arrivals are staunchly Altanticist and inclined to the belief that wrenching themselves free of an obsolete and repressive alliance was not achieved simply to become absorbed by another. The trouble is that the maths do not yet quite add up. Bring a big influential element like Turkey in and the whole situation becomes liquid.
From the Franco-German point of view, this is the last thing they want. Forget all the rubbish about cultural, religious and geographical considerations. This is something that would significantly dilute their ability to dictate the future course of Europe. They know this and that is why they oppose it.
Which leads me on to UK domestic politics - and I apologise to those who yawn - but it is relevant. The coalition requires that two opposing points of view on Europe are accommodated. What better way to do so that to hook the largest red herring in the ocean? To take the fishing analogy to it's logical conclusion, Cameron has opened a can of worms and the Turks would be well advised not to take the bait but to swim serenely out to sea.
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Isenidiotblowingmyownhorn;
As I understand the EU rules, ALL of the members must approve membership for a new member to join. Any one of them could vote no for any reason and that would be the end of it. Will Greece be persuaded to vote yes? Will donkeys ever grow wings and fly? After this week, the Greeks might vote no just to stick their finger in Britain's eye.
Is Turkey part of Europe? Turkey straddles both Europe and Asia just the way Russia does. Part of it is in Europe, most of it is in Asia. That is a cartographic fact.
Even were it not for the hatred many in Europe have for the Turks based on their ancient history, the criteria that Turkey must meet in terms of its positions and policies on human rights falls far short of what is required and with their new turn towards an Islamic state they are moving in the wrong direction. It doesn't look good for their admission anytime in the forseeable future.
BTW, Count Dracula became a great hero of Romania by impaling the Turks along the path they would have taken as invaders. Dracula means the impaler. This reportedly so frightened the Turks that they turned back. Not a bad strategy for dealing with the Taleban and al Quaeda IMO. Barbaric and brutal but it might be effective. Definitely worth a try.
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Just a few points about the energy projects and the Turkish involvement there.
The idea that Turkey can somehow be used by Europe to facilitate the relations with the countries of Central Asia is an illusion, which some EU officials harbour, because they lack the insight in the region of Central Asia even more than the Balkans and the Mediterranean. The pan-Turkic ideology, although still quite popular in Turkey itself, have never really been (and will never be)successful in the Central Asia for a number of factors.
The Turkic countries of the region have traditionally been more closely related to, and dependent on Russia, rather than on Turkey, even during Ottomnan times. The very existance of these countries, their current borders, the ruling elites are entirely the product of Russian policy; they are its product. It is not Turkey that they look up to, but Russia. The borders there have been designed and drawn with the aim to keep these countries in check, lacking specific resources and dependent on Russia. And it will remain so forever. Even the language thet unites and bonds them is, ironically, not Turkish or, Turkic, but Russian. The point is that the key which will enssure the EU access to the resources of Central Asia is not Turkey, but Russia.
As regards the South Stream gas pipeline vs. Nabucco, Turkey itself has tacitly accepted that Nabucco is currently impossible, and accepted a role in South Stream. Long term, Nabucco is impossible without Iran. Short term, the only country that can realistically provide some initial quantities of gas is Azerbaijan, but even they prefer to sell it to the Russians. Turkey wanted to be the "hub" country for Nabucco, buying ALL the gas and re-selling it to the stupid Europeans, while at the same time using the pipeline to pressure them to get membership. Even the otherwise loyal Azeris did not agree...
Burgas-Alexandrupolis is a slightly different issue - Turkey has not opposed it openly, and will not do it in order not to upset the Russians, but the project has the potential to be very important strategically (you are absolutely right Nik) - it will make it very difficult for Turkey in the future to stir up troubles along its border with Bulgaria and Greece. So, yes it is much more than just monney...
With regards to Turkey buying Russian arms - it is a sideshow right now, not terribly important for both of them, but it may be an indicator of where their relations are going. Of course, the EU is a much bigger market for Russia's resources and therefore much more important.
And lastly, Turkish position on its genocidal practices of the past is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable for Europe of the 21st century. A country which blatantly only rejects any responsibility for the systematic, well-planned and brutally executed mass exterminations of the Christian (Armenian, Greek, Bulgarian, etc.) populations of Thrace, Anatolia, Cyprus...CANNOT BE a European country. Not only is Turkey rejecting any responsibility, it completely denies the very existance of these atrocities, and actively prosecutes (in Turkey) anybody who dares even mention these, state-sponsored, methodical genocidal campaigns...hardly an European attitude to human rights and dignity. Would Germany be accepted as a European country, if it were still denying the Holocaust? It is a well-known fact, that Hitler got his inspiration for the Holocaust from what the Ottomans/"Young Turks" did to the Armenians (and others) in the late 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries...
By the way, an priceless resource on these issues is T.E. Lawrence's memoirs,"The Seven Pillars of Wisdom". Truly brilliant and insightful literary and historical masterpiece. Well worth reading for anyone who wants understand the history of the region in general, and Turkey in particular! Here is a British officer who had some first hand experience of how "European" the Turks are...
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AiW wrote: " Anyway, Putin said the failure is the result of treason, and he "doubts in the good future for the treacherous folks, as they usually end life badly dying under someone's fence or die from unknown things" :o))))))))))))))))))
So all is fine and wonderful."
So I guess Politkovskaya, Estemirova and Sadulayeva were simply traitors.
What a relief!
Why hasn't Mr. Putin said so at the beginning?
And I thought all this time that those ladies were killed because they were independent journalists or human rights activists. Silly me.
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#265
So how is that any different with Great Britain and its conduct in India or the US arming Al Queda to get rid of Soviet Union from Afghanistan? And you all wonder why England and US support Turkey?
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Nik @ 268
Why Turkey wants to join EU? Same motivation as the current members: economic prosperity and political stability. Stating the obvious make me feel like a school boy again.
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Isenhorn @#280
I am not sure from your comments whether your objection is that Britain is pushing for Turkey to gain membership contrary to public opinion or whether your fear for Turkey's accession is because of the possible migration of many, many Turks to other parts of the EU.
In the first instance, Turkey is on-the-road to accession and is moving towards convergence with the prerequisites of membership of the EU. The EU has granted Turkey the path to accession which means that Turkey will gain accession if the Turks do meet the entry requirements for 2025.
The only issue at hand is whether Germany and France (along with other EU Allies) vetoes the Turkish accession.
In regard to your second concerns, is it not the case that any existing EU Nation can put in place exemptions to the EU's freedom of movement of peoples for accession countries? I believe the UK was exempted to be allowed to put up border controls for Romanians and Bulgarians when Romania and Bulgaria gained EU Membership?
On the flip side, if a country does meet the EU Membership criteria, is it right that they should be barred from EU membership because their majority religion is different from the rest of Europe even though they are still-as-yet a secular state (and must remain secular to achieve EU membership!)?
Is it right that the EU club can allow the free movement of EU peoples from existing EU nations to the detriment of existing EU Nations yet claim that Turkey's admission would make matters worse?
The UK has the largest net immigrant numbers of any EU Nation and 1/3rd of the immigrants to the UK are EU Citizens coming to the UK for permanent residence. The UK is inundated with immigrants and yet has one of the smallest territories within the EU. Where is there an EU rule to limit this immigration into the UK, where 95% of immigrants move directly to the south-east corner of England under freedom of movement but overstretch housing, services and welfare provision for all UK citizens to the point of the system seizing-up under the burden of immigration numbers and costs?
If freedom of movement under the existing EU rules is good enough for the Poles and the other eastern Europeans then surely it must be equally as good for the Turks if they do meet the convergence criteria and do gain access to the EU and its freedoms?
To claim that the Turks should NOT be allowed to join the EU because they are a underdeveloped and poor country is disingenuous in the extreme as that IS the very reason that the Mediterranean and eastern European nations were so keen to join the EU and were allowed to do so.
To add the phrase “and Muslim” to the sentence, “they are a underdeveloped, poor and Muslim country” is to your discredit as, culturally, the Turks are secular Moslems (and proud of their secularism!) and your objection would seem to boil down to a reluctance to glad hand the Turks being admitted to the EU simply because they are followers of Islam.
If there was evidence that there were Turks involved in any of the terrorist atrocities committed in the last few years inside the EU Nations other than Greece or that Turkey was a failed state and the hotbed for the export of terrorism then I might agree that Turkey might have to do more to achieve EU membership but to deny them membership because they are Moslems is an insult to the nature of the vast majority of people who enjoy their lives inside Europe and, by default, are EU citizens whether they like it or not and regardless of their race, colour or religion. I honestly believe that Europeans are far more magnanimous than is evidence by the soundings of opinion in this BBC Blog’s comments or in the BBC’s Have Your Say which I suggest are hardly representative of real public opinion as any crackpot can access the BBC website and spout off their own opinions even if they are mad, bad or despicable ideas … and that includes many of my rants too – I may be the only person who agrees with me but my right to say it doesn’t mean my opinion is always right but that works for all contributors too!
ROTFLMBO
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An answer for Nik the Greek,
Nik, truly it is apparent from your posts that u r a single-minded person, it is also apparent that u cannot stand anything Turkish, whether its their "Mongoloid" features, or the fact that the TR of today does not seem to be the TR of old. Really u just need to get over the fact that the inferior Turks who r just a "Mongol tribe" ruled your superior race of ariens for 500 years. U also need to get over Cyprus, its gone, the northern part that is, your Greek kinsmen there in Cyprus had a chance to say no and keep the island the way it was, but no they had to fall for the good old American divide and conquer by succumbing to their deep desire for evicting the Turks out of Cyprus. You also need to get over your biased and misinformed opinions of Turkeys internal problems, u r simply too single-minded, and way too biased to have an objective and informed opinion on the matter. My God dude, if u do not even know how to spell Uzbekistan correctly how can u even begin to speak about the Turkic world. It is blatantly obvious from your comments that u have never even taken a virtual tour of Central Asia. Really your comment about Turks being a Mongol tribe does not even dignify an answer, the relationship between Mongols and Turks is about the same as the relations between Turks and Koreans, or Manchureans, that is if u go back far enough we probably came from the same source, but then if u go back far enough we all come from Africa, so whats the point of this labeling, especially in a world where finding a pure race is increasingly difficult.
Concerning your question about "why do Turks want to join the EU", since your Greek vanity does not allow u to see TR as a normal country, let me inform u. First TR is a country of 72 million where 72 different ethnic groups reside, so a little bit of imagination would reason that not everybody thinks alike. In fact there r those who r vehemently opposed to joining the EU, and there r those who have no opinion. So if your question is why do the Turks who want to join the EU, feel this way? Then I shall have to inform u that different people have different reasons for wanting the same thing. Some might want it for personal reasons, some for economical, some might want it simply for trying something new. In actuality different governments since the late 1980's have used the issue of EU membership to gain votes. First they misinform the uninformed masses into believing that their life would be better under the EU, and then tell them that they r the party to accomplish this. The most recent example is the current ruling party, the AKP (a band of religious charlatans who take inspiration from Iran and Saudi Arabia). Before the 2002 election they promised the so-called liberals that if they came to power they would make EU membership their top priority, and with the liberal vote they took 35% of the vote, afterwards they stuck to their promise, they even went as far as hoisting the EU flag in Ankara with fireworks in the background, knowing the whole time this was nothing but a show, knowing that the negotiations were dead in the water, knowing that in their hearts they prefer islamic rule rather than democratic rule.
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"BTW, how's service in Greece these days? Anyone going to work anymore or is the army dragging people out of bed at gunpoint yet?"
You have to understand, MAII, that the government in Athens wanted to inject some COMPETITION into a Greek lorry transport business.
Now that's an outrage by Greek standards, so no wonder those poor threatened lorry drivers went on strike.
Like Greek air trafic controllers and longshoremen before them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROLETARIANS OF THE WHOLE WORLD - U N I T E !!!
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#283 "France did so to protect its own (state company ELF oil) corrupt oil deals with Saddam, which had been made in violation of the embargo. France being the #1 violator of said embargo. France wasn't acting out of altruistic motives, but selfish ones (as France nearly always does)."
At the time France was building Saddam a nuclear reactor at Osirak (which IAF later had to dispose of) one of her leaders was commonly referred to by the non-plused French as Jacques Iraq.
[I won't even go into France violating UN-imposed arms embargo]
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#282
Marcus, how do you explain the collapse of WTC 7?, it was not hit by a plane yet it collapsed in the same fashion as WTC 1 and 2.
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re #293 Menedemus
Now, isn't it ironic that Germany has willingly brought in hundreds of thousands of Turks into its territory decades ago?
For the same reason France has willingly brought hundreds of thousands of Arabs (Algerians, Moroccans, Tunesians, etc.) into its territory;
both of those staunch EU pillars needing massive dirt cheap labor.
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I`ve seen here a lot of comments about France and Germany that oppose turkish membership. Let us clarify a bit why the germans (not the goverment) don`t want it. Well, it just happens that the turks who live in Germany: a) despise all western values, all german values, all people of different religion than Islam b) they indoctrinate their sons and daughters in the same way c) they don`t allow their daughters to take place in the sports activities in the schools or to go in school trips with their collegues d) they kill their daughters if those behave, dress or think in "western" ways, or if they have friends outside their culture. These are called honour murders, they keep up the honour of their family. e) they create parralel societies where the only rule is the turkish rule. The consequences are: 80% of all robberies, killings, rapes, manslaughters are committed by people with turkish and arabic background. Berlin and Hamburg and München are full of young turks that despise everything western. They don`t just hurt and kill germans, they do the same with italians, greek, potuguese, russian, serb immigrant. And so is say: dear Turks, i`m happy that you have pipelines, water, ressources, a brilliant exconomic future. Have fun with that, just don`t come into old, western, despisable Germany. I also wish that Turkey will give something to the humanity in the cultural and scientific domain, like a major artist, a major discoverer in chemistry, physics, biotechnology, computers - and not, together with their arab friends, the new techniques of the suicide bombing.
Someone asked: why do the turks want to come in the EU? Wrong question: they would be as happy to live in Anatolia if the germans will send the unemployment benefits and the child support directly there, and if the germans would build their infrastructure. Of course, Berlin is nicer and they can rape girls as wish (since their are "infidels" and sluts anyway).
P.S. Of course, since this is an english forum, everything that a german says will be categorised in the area "bloody nazis and intolerant antisemites".
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#299 - litty
One of the great pleasures of these columns is how reasonably and sensibly our German friends argue their case. Then suddenly we have this post. I have stopped counting the number of times I saw the word "they" in this post.
Are "they" different from anyone else in your mind?
"They" are human beings and the moment you forget that, you return to a darker and more evil time.
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Re 289 [DLT] Turkish purchases in Russia.
Russia has announced plans to sell minority stakes in 11 state-run firms which it says could raise about one trillion roubles ($30bn; £19.2bn)
in order to plug its budget deficit.
The part-privatisation scheme will include its huge oil firm -ROSNEFT.
Perhaps Turkey - whose economy grows at 11% clip - could buy 49% of RROSNEFT, thus getting enough oil to fill Nabucco, etc. with? :)
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Menedemus,
Re: 293
On occasions a few phrases put together can look like the truth, sound like the truth and yet be completely different from the truth.
Phrases like ‘Turkey is on-the-road to accession and is moving towards convergence with the prerequisites of membership of the EU’ sound like the truth but are not the truth. Moving towards convergence does not mean that Turkey is in any way closer to meeting the requirements of being an EU country. If Turkey ever gains acceptance in the EU this will be due to political and geostrategic reasons, and not because it is a democratic and secular country on a par with the rest of Europe. Turkey might be accepted for the same reasons Bulgaria and Romania were accepted- to draw those two countries further away for Russian sphere of influence and to reward them for their unquestioning support of the USA-led NATO world hegemony.
Now if you honestly believe that Bulgaria and Romania had ‘converged with the prerequisites of EU membership’ then I am afraid you are mistaken. From my first-hand experience in Bulgaria I can tell you that Bulgaria has met all requirements on paper, while in practice has continued to operate in its own way- corruption, misappropriation of EU funds, the organized crime blatantly supported by the establishment. The sad fact is this is know by the rest of the EU governments, but tolerated due to the strategic value of Bulgaria. Value shaped by its location, which serves as a hub for a number of major pipelines, deployment area for missile shields and radar stations, as well as supply depots for the US Army (not even NATO any more).
The same reasons could apply to Turkey, were it not for its one big disadvantage- its 90 million-strong population, poor, poorly educated, religiously and culturally different. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the words ‘“and Muslim”, allegedly you copied from my previous post do not exist in it. What I said was that Turkey is an ‘underdeveloped, poor, yet populous Muslim country’. And this is the truth, plain and simple. Saying that Turkey is secular country does not mean it is true. It is as secular as Bulgaria is a European country on a par with the rest. Only a person who has been only to Istanbul or the Adriatic coast can think that Turkey is a secular country. Move further inside the Anatoly and you will see the real Turkey- backwardness, religious fundamentalism, oppression of women. As our fellow blogger the prophetmeerkat always reminds us, it is only the power of the Turkish Army that keeps Turkey from an inexorable slide back to Islamism.
An unconditional entry of Turkey into the EU in 15 years from now will result in precisely the situation I described – a massive wave of economic immigrants from the Asiatic part of Turkey, bringing into Europe the very same Islamic practices which even now rub so much against the culture and beliefs of the secular Western societies. You could fool yourself that exemptions to the EU's freedom of movement applied to Turkish people will be any good. You only need to go to Kilburn to see how that has worked in the case of Bulgaria and Romania.
Despite your assertions, that the HYS and the Daily Mail website do not represent the opinion of the majority of the British public, I believe that in this case they rather paint a truthful picture. No one in Britain and Europe is willing to have to face the need to accommodate yet even more representatives of an alien faith and culture in their midst. But what really winds me up is the hypocritical way in which the Government is willing to play the card of bringing such a profound cultural shock to Britain and the rest of Europe, without even a brief reference to their of-so-beloved ‘public consent’ they were talking about not so long ago. A pan-continental cultural shock in exchange for a temporary offset for the mistakes it did in the past in its relations with the EU.
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kirischi #297;
"#282
Marcus, how do you explain the collapse of WTC 7?, it was not hit by a plane yet it collapsed in the same fashion as WTC 1 and 2."
By a strange coincidence I had occasion to look into that about 2 years ago related to an engineering project I was working on where the flamability of diesel fuel was an issue. It is believed that there was a fire that lasted for an extended period caused by leaking diesel fuel used to power emergency generators. During the explosions the fuel lines were ruptured causing diesel fuel to flow from the storage tanks freely into the open. The fuel air mixture become volatile enough to be ignited, and the fuel continued to flow feeding the fire. The heat ultimately weakened the structural steel columns and girders hours later and caused the WTC7 building to collapse.
This was the best explanatin the New York City Fire Department came up with and has caused them to reconsider regulations regarding the manner and quantity of fuel storage for backup generators in high rise office buildings. The often believed notion that mixtures of diesel fuel and air can't ignite and then result in a fire consuming more of the fuel is false.
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Re #299 "P.S. Of course, since this is an english forum, everything that a german says will be categorised in the area "bloody nazis and intolerant antisemites".
Highly doubtful.
Personally, I would find a usage of even such terms "clean hand nazis" and "tolerant antisemites" quite unaceptable.
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bobby50h wrote:
#265
So how is that any different with Great Britain and its conduct in India or the US arming Al Queda to get rid of Soviet Union from Afghanistan?
Fact that U.S. never armed al-Qaida or Taliban aside, neither of those to outfits even existed during the Soviet-Afghan War.
Taliban was born in Pakistan's madrassas in 1994, with a little help from Pakistani military intelligence service - ISI;
al-Qaida, was created a little earlier by ibn Laden with a specific objective to topple the Saudi monarchy, after he lost its favours.
In Saudi Arabia. Not to kick the Soviets out of Afghanistan.
BTW. Mr. Cameron's criticism of Pakistan, particularly regarding terrorist attacks conducted by Pakistani terrorist groups in India - is fully justified in view of numerous well-documented incidents.
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292. At 6:17pm on 29 Jul 2010, sayasay wrote:
"""Nik @ 268
Why Turkey wants to join EU? Same motivation as the current members: economic prosperity and political stability. Stating the obvious make me feel like a school boy again."""
Mate, 4 moths now we discuss that EU = financial trouble for long term. Why do you keep wishing that it is going to work differently for Turkey? Do you know something we do not know?
294. At 6:34pm on 29 Jul 2010, kirischi wrote:
You said your lies, you read my answer point to point to what you said, now go read what Litty wrote:
299. At 7:51pm on 29 Jul 2010, litty
Litty expresses the hidden view of the average German who usually do not go out openly to speak on that / Litty is just an honest person who says what he thinks out of what he sees out there...) and come back and tell me about me being Greek and biased.
Now go read what DLT has written in the text below:
289. At 5:55pm on 29 Jul 2010, DLT wrote:
Actually you should copy-search DLT to read everything he has written. He is Bulgarian and like us Greeks evidently knows your country much better than you living inside it do. Is it accidental he says identical things about your country? Is it accidental that every neighbour of yours will say the same?
Read and learn something. It is not at all about learning to do some critiscism on yourself (a Turk would never do such a thing, he is muslim, he is turk according to him he is perfect). It is about understanding your inner reality.
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acorn for a brain;
"The Arizona immigrant situation is deteriorating into something similar as Nazi Germany on the hunt for Jews.
Fear and exodus rule !
-- or haven´t you heard ?"
On the contrary, I'm on the bidders list to build the concentration camps and the cremetoria. Of course the Mexicans do have an option the Jews didn't. They can simply turn around and go back where they came from. The door to America is always unlocked...from the inside.
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QOT
Re #251 & "...US & UK majority... retire into poverty.."
Are You wholly without a thread of commonsense!?
Where, when, how could You possibly conceive of the idea millions of Americans & British are living below the 'poverty-line' after they stop working?
UK/England is in the Your beloved EU! It is just fantastical drivel to imply millions of Britons are on starvation threshold when nothing of the sort is revealed by any EU statistic never mind the much more reliable UK National Audit Office figures!
I'm fairly certain from a quick check of the USA Federal Office for Health that the same is true of America.
You are writing & peddling utter nonsense in persuit of Your blind prejudical views of both nations and should be ashamed.
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Nik @ 308
“Do you know something we do not know?”
It’s only a money thingy. To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: money problems are like flags, every country has one. If Turkey is the new kid on the block, it will be like fresh perspective instead of the old same old same. Besides the Euro is about 12 years, and to paraphrase Clint again: monetary problems are like puberty, every growing child has one.
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litty
Re #299
Your comment is both nauseating in its extremism & alarming in its lack of tolerance towards others (i.e Turkish community).
The use of scare-mongering statistics such as "..80%.." of all murders, rapes... is just so grossly wide of the mark that You defeat any logical argument You try to make by the ridiculousness of such a made-up figure!
To stereotype an entire people as criminals & perverts as You attempt with the Turkish is not only counter-productive because it is plainly untrue/unrealistic, but also plays into the hands of those amongst the Turkish community of Germany & Turkey who are extreme in their opposition to 'western' culture & values. Your extremist reaction to all Turks does the Fundamentalist Turk job for them in recruiting impressionable & misinformed younger Turks who are made afraid & resentful by Your attitude and threatened behaviours toward an entire peoples.
In short Your closed-mind is as much a danger for Germany and Europe as any Fundamentalist Turks viewpoint of it.
Your closing remark about how German contributors are viewed on this Blog is demonstrably untrue & unfair to the huge majority of us who do not refer to any Nationality in that manner though we at times really do get stuck into each other (e.g as You would see from my replies to NIK, the greek, & other bloggers with other contributors).
Everybody gets upset at times, however, You have led off with a diatribe of bile that has been seldom seen and even more rarely matched about one other Peoples - - which is very sad for this BBC European Editor's Blog, but even more sad as an impression of You at a personal level.
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powermerkat
Re #307
All accurate & substantiated basic factual accounts of the reality of the 'terror' groups etc.
Therefore, You can expect a mass of annoyance from those for whom the 'Satan USA!' slogan really has replaced logic, reason & the way the World actually turns.
In the modern era there has never been anything quite so remarkably double-standard & also frighteningly naive as the 'liberal' western mind (predominantly in Europe) that blames the USA whilst preaching toleration of the Taliban!
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Re #255
There is the challenge, interest, informative fun of trivial pursuit & then there is the pursuit of trivia.
The former is an outstanding example of how to engage people in the pursuit of knowledge & understanding.
The latter is sadly characterised by the author of #255 and any of his 26 published contributions on this topic alone: Try #51, #88, #134, or #242, perhaps #257 and concluding with #308... they just get deeper into tedious inexactitude & dullness.
He has begun advising others to ".. get educated..", an astonishing suggestion from one whose encyclopaedia of knowledge runs all the way from 'a' to half-way through 'b'!
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Well I have a feeling Turkey is just bored there alone.
Wants to team up with some gang :o) - or to lead some gang :o) - question - with who to team up or who to head?
Of neighbours not much choice; with us in Russia - we can't embrace each other's values whole-heartily, can co-operate economically only at max.
Turkey are practical folks, while we are traditionally slightly mad :o))))))))
On-going :o))) Retain a healthy degree of madness, so to say ;o)
So never the twain shall meet
Who are other Turkey's potential bosom friends? Iran and Iraq won't accept Turkish superiority never. Turkey tried to hold the role of the mediator btw the USA and "west' in general and all things Muslim in the region. I don't know to which degrees of success. I think Turkey still plays it on, the mediator position in the region' s role is still open.
Ex-USSRians or ex-Russia Empire -ians :o) in the region are unlikely to accept mediators btw themselves and the West either. They are poor but ambitious countries, just recently became own countries, no, I don't think Azerbajan etc will consider surrending any role positions to Turkey. These are still busy playing own games, with various degrees of success. They give credit to Turkish economic successes I am sure - but don't look up to it. Which may be silly, on their part, by the way. But the fact of life for many of these new countries the capital for some 200-300 yrs was St. Petersburg. I think for a capital they'd think St. Petersburg, or an own capital, or something like New York I don't know But without Istanbul along their growth/success understanding chain.
This pan-Turk thing won't work; the poor places around have very un-measured expectations and don't look up to Istanbul.
So, Turkey is kind of unique and kind of lonely there alone. Unlike everyone else around, and able, and ambitious. They want to do something but don't know what :o)))) No wonder they want to make friends in the EU. Who else is left around? :o)))))))) Not much choice :o( :o))))))))
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And by the way - EU is practical and Turkey is practical - may work out.
Sure it isn't Europe then anymore, with Turkey in - but then we don't talk Europe. We talk EU; a large conglomerate of things who want to get larger, that's all
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Turkey has no rightful future in the European Union while it refuses to come to terms with its bloody past, in particular the continued denial of the Genocide of the 1.5 million Christian Armenians during WWI.
No percentage of economic growth or geo-political strategic importance will wash that blood from its history, despite the best efforts of Erdogan and Cameron.
Would a Holocaust denying Germany be welcomed in the EU?
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Perhaps Turkey - whose economy grows at 11% clip - could buy 49% of RROSNEFT, thus getting enough oil to fill Nabucco, etc. with? :)
______
powermeer, perhaps - not. ;o)))))
Perhaps you start a war with Iran, drag UK down with on inertia, perhaps Turkey follows the old friends' pattern, and ends up with no money for Rosneft' ;o)))))
And don't be so choosy ab what our Putin has said :o) He said all things proper and expected of him as the bad policeman. You'd be unhappy first should he say any thing out of the pattern ;o)
That's why I wrote all goes fine and wonderful; we are predictable (as much as we can :o)))))))) And what else to ask of Russia, really :o) You are too spolied; don't give due credit to our predictability!
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#308,
Really your arrogance is off the charts, every once in a while u should repeat these words to yourself Nik,
Out there in the world, not every nation is small and thinks uniformly like mine, nations who have transcended the idea of pure nationality do not and can not generalize themselves into superficial labels.
For example, I am a Turk but I choose not to be a Muslim. And of course I am not the only Turk in the world who thinks this way. And this not some fad, or rebellion against authority but rather a calculated and informed decision whose inspiration comes not only out of personal observation, but also from books whose authors are respected academics, and whose books r widely available to the public. TR is entering an age where most of her citizens will be collage educated, an age where both nationalist and religious dogmas will be open to question and debate.
Litty is an outright, narrow-minded racist, whose utter bile and uber-nationalism has been rightly condemned by wide-minded people on this forum. So if by pointing out his post u r trying say that if somebody else can make a fool out of himself why cant I? please go ahead and put yourself on par with him.
As far as DLT, so what if u 2 agree that your opinions about TR are closer to the truth than those who live in TR. I can easily find u 2 people who agree that the Nordic race is the master race.
And lastly, it is easy to call someone a liar, it is easy to say my words r lies, but it is an entirely different thing to prove that they r lies.
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#304
Marcus, so by utter coincidence WTC7 falls exactly like WTC1 and 2. Well what about Mr. Silverstein who at the time was the owner of WTC7, and who plainly said in an interview after 911 that WTC7 was pulled (a term meaning demolition by explosives) to prevent anymore loss of life.
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kirischi;
That runs contrary to my research on the matter two years ago. I was interested in the flamability of diesel fuel and its potential for creating damage to facilities when it is stored in large quantities for backup generators. That's how I happened on WTC7.
Have you got a link for the interview? I'd like to hear the man say it for myself. A lot of people say other people said something that they never actually said. Frankly I don't believe it. By the time WTC7 had collapsed hours later, presumably everyone still alive had been clear of the wreckage of 1 and 2. There wasn't time or opportunity to set explosives for WTC7. Why would they have waited hours, why not do it at the same time the two towers fell. Doesn't add up. Besides, if he'd said it, it would have been all over the media.
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To Dear Nik,
I am Turkish. Here is my opinion of EU. It seems to be full of bigots like you. So why would anyone in the world want to join a union which bigotry hatred of anything and everything slightly foreign is legendary. Why would you want to be in NATO? except for Brits and Yanks have no will to fight anyone yet alone defend someone else especially the Turks.
So as a Turk. I would trade with EU. I would play with you but I don't want to live in the same house with you or rub shoulders as brothers in arms (clearly we are not and never will be).
And Nik I have been to your little country. Nice place but historically there is nothing interesting but for rubble that is older than 2000 years. So the people whom you think were the cradle of civilisation are long long gone. I suggest they may have moved acrossed the Agean sea since they probably found Anatolia was a lot better place to live and left their rubbish behind ;)
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I would just like to note that I have been living in Germany for two years now and, on a personal level, I have never come across the kind of bigotry you can see in litty's post. Aside from that, I completely agree with what cool_brush_work had to say on the matter.
In my humble opinion, at this point, Turkey's membership in the EU must be opposed, on the grounds of human rights issues within Turkey and the Kurdish question. In general principle, however, nothing speaks against Turkey becoming a member of the EU. No BS about Turkey being "Muslim" or "culturally too different" should be accepted. It should be seen for the racist BS that it is.
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JBD68;
So reading your post does that mean that you don't want to become part of the effort to save the Eruo by rescuing Greece from the consequences of its folly and corruption? Here's a thought. Try to get the summer olympics for Turkey and then offer to buy the venues from Greece that they used, disassemble them and ship them to Turkey. Or you could just leave them in Greece to fall into decay and join the other disued ruins tourists go to see there.
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MarcusAureliusII,
Who cares about the little back water that is called Greece? Nice Holiday destination for sure, been there, done that. They have nothing to offer to anyone apart from the old(very old) cradle of civilisation rubbish. I think they did have a fair few good ideas. But look at the world now. What I want for Turkey is a democracy like Britain, engineers like Germany, living standards of the Nordic countries. How do we get there? We can take all the good and adopt it as our own.
It would be scary for most western Euro countries to allow Turkey into a common border arrangement. I have no doubt there would be a huge number of people trying their luck in the west to find a job there. In the long run though there is very little benefit to Turkey. Our fundamentals are strong we are heading the right direction albeit slower then we have hoped for and it is a bumpy road. In a decade or two if we join we will be rescuing Greece and supporting the pensions of the Europe's elderly.
Also reading through all the comments there are a number of blogs talking about if Turkey is part of Europe or not and are we European? I have been to London a fair few times. It was hard to see someone looked Anglo-Saxon when you see one turned out he was Polish or Estonian.
So what is a european? Greece looks a lot more like Turkey than say Germany, people do too. Then again was majority of MED countries have the similar ethnic looks. Rich countries look more alike as far as their cities and infrastructure. For example Singapore would look similar to a North american city if you remove people.
To answer your original question. I am a capitalist. So if you don't manage your finances well, sorry you will fail and disappear. Countries are no different than companies. You can prop them up for a time but their system is defective they will fail again and again. If they were company their CEO would have been jailed for keeping two sets of books.
Summer olympics? No thanks no money in it ;) Greeks can add more to their ruins they are so proud about LOL
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• I am a Turk living in Europe. I have lots of European friends and I like and respect Europe and European culture. However I have not met a single European who beleives that Turkey should be in the EU. I really am tired of this debate. European public has spoken and they said they do not want Turkey in the Union. Everyone should respect that. I don't understand why we are still having this debate. I find it quite offensive to hear that we are different and we don't belong. It is probably true, but I am sick of hearing it all the time. Time has come to end this silly debate. It is time that either Turkey withdraws its application or EU rejects it. But please please please, for everyone’s sake just end this misery.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
327. At 07:55am on 30 Jul 2010, Ozgur wrote:
"""• I am a Turk living in Europe. I have lots of European friends and I like and respect Europe and European culture. However I have not met a single European who beleives that Turkey should be in the EU. I really am tired of this debate. European public has spoken and they said they do not want Turkey in the Union. Everyone should respect that. I don't understand why we are still having this debate."""
Ozgur, as you said it, it takes 2 to tango. A forced marriage is a marriage for the worst.
"""I find it quite offensive to hear that we are different and we don't belong. It is probably true, but I am sick of hearing it all the time."""
You just take it personally on yourself which is wrong. Turkey is a large country with multiple faces one of which you represent (as a Turk living abroad). Your face is not necessarily the average Turkish face and the average Turkish face does not coincide with yours. I accuse Turkey of things that are not related to its market, or financial situation and not to its hard working people that try to do something better of their lifes but related to past (not so past) & recent aggresiveness towards us neighbours and naturally we do not wish to have to deal with you. Other Europeans do not share our sensibilities, but have other things to care and say. Why would you take it personally though? Do I seem to take it personally when people laugh at Greece's financial situation and accuse it as corrupt? I only remind those who say so about the ones that kept on giving loans to a country that should be not given any other loan since 1985, who gave the last votes for the Olympics only 13 years ago and who all these years contributed to achieve the current financial situation and what corporations like Siemens or Dassault contributed to the country's corruption and it all ends there. Nothing personal. Nothing of what is said in general applies to individual.
"""Time has come to end this silly debate. It is time that either Turkey withdraws its application or EU rejects it. But please please please, for everyone’s sake just end this misery."""
It is not misery. It is a political game with lot more extensions than Turkey. It largely has to do with the Us-Russian game and the "management" of the affairs in Bosphorus, Caucasus and Middle East.
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Re #314
Such comments do not even deserve a rebuttal.
Some posters seem to even believe that the war in the Pacific began whem American planes bombed Japanese Imperial Fleet's ships in Yokohama harbor.
And that Korean War began when American imperalists attacked peaceful North Korea.
Oh, those incorrigible Yankee agressors! ;(
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re; 311,
CBW,
Here is a statistic which shows precisely that- millions of people in the UK retire into poverty. And this is during the 'boom years', the years of the 7 fat cows. The numbers are self exploratory. Unless you consider the ONS to produce 'EU drivel'?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/jan/27/pensioners-poverty-ons-inequality
Now if you do not mind, can you show us the evidence which made you think otherwise?
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WAiW wrote: This pan-Turk thing won't work; the poor places around have very un-measured expectations and don't look up to Istanbul.
You're correct.
For quite a while they've been looking up to ANKARA. :)
BTW. I've been to Azerbaijan: They speak basically Turkish there.
And Uzbekistan, when they speak a form of ancient Turkish.
[I'll have to listen more closely to the Uighur accent. :)]
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"So, Turkey is kind of unique and kind of lonely there alone."
Are you sure, WebAlice?
Every year I see more and more friendly Russian tourists crowding beaches of Turkish Riviera (from Fetiyeh to Alanya).
With local Turks trying to kill their loneliness with "Natashas" as they generically call all those cute girls.
[some even marry them, and usually don't complain afterwards.]
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"Turkey has no rightful future in the European Union while it refuses to come to terms with its bloody past, in particular the continued denial of the Genocide of the 1.5 million Christian Armenians during WWI."
Number of Armenians (who allied thsemselves with Russia, btw. during WWI) killed by the Turks seems to be growing with every passing year even faster than a number of "Mayflower" Pilgrims.
[couple of other posters have already adressed an issue of phoney number of Iraqis allegedly killed by U.S./British forces]
Victimology has become quite popular in recent years in different quarters.
Particularly in the absence of present-day tangible successes.
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"powermeer, perhaps - not. ;o)))))[Turky buing a minority stake in ROSNEFT
"Perhaps you start a war with Iran".
Alice, I hate to tell you that but we don't need to start a war with Iran to dispose of those ayatollahs' nuclear facilities we're concerned about.
[I don't think Russian-built reactor in Busher would be one of them. :)]
It probably wouldn't even have to be us [US]. ;)
BTW. Pres. Medvedev's growing concern about Islamic Republic's nefarious nuclear activities have been noticed and appreciated across the Pond. :)
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Re #320
A little reading on ethnic origins of ancient Bulgars might help to cool down the heated atmosphere here.
On the other hand - it might not.
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"Summer olympics? No thanks no money in it ;)"
Quite a few non-plused Londoners are saying that too.
Without even having seen a final bill yet.
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Ozgur wrote (in #327)
"It is time that either Turkey withdraws its application or EU rejects it."
Why?
What's wrong with a little of hypocrisy?
[well, perhaps more than a little]
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I know my opinion actually does not matter. The debate raging in Germany is called integration. And integration means that when you are guest in a democratic country you learn the language, respect its values (you don't have to love them, just respect them), respect the other citizens (wherever they came from, whatever race, colour, sexual preference, religion, eating habits), and don't try to impose your rules, behaviour modes, religion, customs on others. The principle is "don't ask, don't tell". I am not asking anyone what he is, what he thinks, what he believes, i am not interested in anyone's colour, religion, sexual preference or whatever - and i expect the same behaviour from others. The only thing required is: keep these thing private, where they really belong. If this is racist, so be it. My humble suggestion is that those that don't want to apply these rules can go look for other countries. We don't want love, the only think we want is not to be assaulted in the metro, and we would prefer no bombs in our trains, and we would also prefer that the prayer rooms of the mosques are not used for planning attacks as that on 9.sept in NY!.
I presume this wish is also a manifestation of my racist tendencies.
I know that Churchill said " i am trusting only the statistics that i faked myself", therefore you don't have to trust my information about who commit the delinquency in Germany or who controls the drug smuggling. It does not matter, my information is still correct.
Germany has received in the last 40-50 years several immigration waves; they have all integrated - not assimilated, they don't have to eat sauerkraut to be integrated. You just don't hear and don't see any croats, greeks, portuguese, italians, russians, poles, french, irish, englishmen, bulgarians, spaniards, austrians, swiss, danes, or swedes being a "problem" factor.
I wish to point, for all that need the information, what Mr. Erdogan has said in Köln, in front of hundred thousand turks : "The democracy is just the train that we are using, the mosques are our garrisons, the minarets are our bayonets, and the believers are our soldiers". He is sincere and i appreciate this. He is as sincere as Mr. Ahmadineshad when he says " i want to wipe Israel out of the face of the world". If we are surrounded by sincere people, why is it not possible to say that everyone that has such ideas should remain in their countries and keep to themselves ?
I have been once in Hyde park, at the Speaker's corner. Does everyone in the world has to accept seeing groups of muslims preaching at the Speaker's corner the destruction of the west, and anyone that thinks that UK is idiotic in accepting this is a racist ?
Fact is, the truth hurts. I hurted those that say that integration is possible because all people are good by nature. I hurted them in Netherland when VanGogh was killed, it hurted them in Denmark when the Mohammed drawings appeared, and it hurted them in germany when Mozart's opera Idomeneo had to be taken out because there is a scene where the head of Mohammed appears. What i'm saying is that in some cases integration does not work - and if this is the case, why produce conflicts by putting these groups of people one near the other ?
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Nik,
I don't want to be in any union if you are in it as well. Dude read it carefully next time. I want the kinda democracy, engineering and living standard that some of the EU states have(Greece is not one of them) I don't want to live there and be in a Union with them.
We are big enough and ugly enough to stand alone. How about your lot Nik old boy?
Ellinas,
Is bigot a greek word? if not it should be. Read the age of empires. When the game was played you were no where to be seen. Sorry no apologies here. And no-one here is crying foul for the stuff we lost at the end. We are not whingers. If you are correct about history you must have been so inferior you got shafted by a bunch of vagrant Mongols. Where was your mighty 300? And Math was a Greek thing I thought I must have been wrong. So you built nothing for the last 500 because of my Mongols how about the 1500 before that? Maths? 2000-500=1500( Math lesson from an inferior Mongol) lol
You Greeks are a funny bunch. I do love you for being you. You make everyone look good.
And again no to the EU and Nato. EU is doomed and NATO has filled its mission the SOVIETs are gone.
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Why does every other political discussion in Europe turn into a fruitless argument about arcane historical facts or irrelevant ethnical/cultural observations/stereotyping/insults? I find that a genuine constitutional democracy would need to benefit from a better level of public discourse which would normally involve two sides arguing their respective viewpoints based on rational civic arguments (rather than turning the discussion into some kind of an virtual ethnic gladiator fight). The above discussion leaves one with no insight but a bitter aftertaste from all the negative and emotionally loaded comments.
I find it hard to identify any obvious reasons why Turkey cannot possibly be admitted into the EU. This decision cannot be based on religion (since EU states guarantee the freedom of religion) and I doubt it could be about the prevailing culinary customs or the respective quality of cultural achievements boasted by the prospective candidate country as assessed by a committee of ten or twenty wise men. Popular opinion (even if it is prejudiced) is important although I am honestly not sure whether a majority of Europeans could agree on any particular set of states that should form part of the EU. Surely also many of the current member states are "unpopular" in this way - should they be booted out by popular vote?
So it boils down to a more or less arbitrary decision on where and when to draw the EU borders. I do not have an answer, and I did not see any hint of a comprehensive answer in the posts so far. Nor am I convinced that the EU would need to commit itself to any particular answer to this question at this stage.
So based on the above, I do not see any obstacles that would need to prevent the EU from committing to admit Turkey subject to the fulfillment of specific conditions (e.g., if applicable, fixing specifically identified deficiencies in the protection of ethnic or religious minority members or other identified areas).
Question was also raised as to why Turkey is interested in joining the EU, suggesting that it must be due to an inferiority complex. I do not think the reasons why Turkey might want to join are any different from the reasons for any other state to be a member (e.g., access to a space of free movement of persons, goods, services and capital, and opportunity for a privileged relationship with other member states). However, I agree that this is a two-way discussion, and the EU should not take it for granted that the EU will continue to have appeal for potential new joiners regardless of any foot-dragging or snubs from the EU or its member states.
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@ 317 WA
"And by the way - EU is practical and Turkey is practical - may work out.
Sure it isn't Europe then anymore, with Turkey in - but then we don't talk Europe. We talk EU; a large conglomerate of things who want to get larger, that's all..."
I agree. Please read my post @83...
Regards
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#340 "we would prefer no bombs in our trains"
If memory serves those bombs on German trains (which have not gopne off because there fuses were wired by a comrade of the "Underwear Bomber"
were not exactly Turkish, were they? :)
And a couple of arrested (and sentenced) al-Qaida would be terrorists were pure blood German kids.
Am I right or am I right?
BTW. I remember a certain bombing attack on a German discoteque, in which a Turkish female citizen was killed.
Do you happen to remember who perpetrated that atrocity?
And once at it: there was British RAF, and the German RAF.
I do hope you can tell a difference.
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@ 330 Nik
You are not at all alone in this trend brother. Alice and I are behind. No matter I risk to be labelled "madman" like you. Just "steady so" (as my captain used to adress the helmsman at watch; I served 17 years in the fleet)...
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@ 253 MarcusAureliusII
"I march to the beat of my own drum...."
Lucky man!
And in old Europe we still appreciate the cultural/economic/scientific achievements of the Americans... What a pity that you have not the least respect for your ancestral... Even the grandparents of Alice of St.Petersburg could be among those Russian settlers who colonized/civilized America. (Alaska was Russian until 1865 friend!); not to speak of Threnodio, Cool_brush_work and of the other Brits/Irish hire present…
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341. At 09:52am on 30 Jul 2010, JBD68:
Is bigot a greek word? if not it should be. Read the age of empires. When the game was played you were no where to be seen. Sorry no apologies here. And no-one here is crying foul for the stuff we lost at the end. We are not whingers. If you are correct about history you must have been so inferior you got shafted by a bunch of vagrant Mongols. Where was your mighty 300? And Math was a Greek thing I thought I must have been wrong.
Bigot: (derogatory name applied by the French to the Normans)a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
So is bigot a Greek word? No but who complain about my #329 comment was certainly a Bigot. Of course it's not your case because you are not one of the whingers
...nevertheless age, history, apologies, Math yes they are Greek words
"...2000-500=1500..."
good Math...Keep on exercise
"...You Greeks are a funny bunch. I do love you for being you..."
Keep your "precious" love for the Kurds. They desperately need your love nowadays
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341. At 09:52am on 30 Jul 2010, JBD68 wrote:
"""Nik,
I don't want to be in any union if you are in it as well. Dude read it carefully next time. I want the kinda democracy, engineering and living standard that some of the EU states have(Greece is not one of them) I don't want to live there and be in a Union with them."""
I do not take the above as a real answer. It is us Greeks that do not want to be in any union with a country that right now threats us with war and annexation of our own territories and which in the past has commited every abomibable crime against our populations including one of the most massive and systematic genocides that has been ever commited in human history - that only 100-90 years back.
You might say you do not like Greeks but what I see when i go to Turkey is different. Turks range from central-Asiatic (Azerbaitzani-like) to Caucasian (Georgian/Armenian like) to Middle Eastern (Kurd/Syrian-like) to Albanian/Slavic-like and only a small minority of them are Mediterranean-like (i.e. Greek like). Yet in your media, cinema, tv etc. all your male Turkish actors stars etc. are at a fantastically high rate looking like Greeks while the average Turk does not at all look like that. And you understand that you can't hide from me here, I know your country extensively as I have visited it about 5-6 times your country, do not even remember now, (2 for job, 3 for tourism).
You do not want to be with us but you want to look like us. No matter your bigger country, no matter your bigger industries, no matter your better relations with world power US which provides you the ability to sell yourselfs as a regional power, you always look up to Greeks as someone superior to you. Just like the times of the Janissaries, your elite military and social group. You want to sell yourselfs like us. You want to be the muslim version of us. Years back you even tried to invent a history of your hypothetic nation to provide the equivalent of our long history doing the fantastic dual thingie that you were both "from there" as well as "from here" neither of which anyway is true.
Which is of course why you hate us so much. You do not like yourselfs, what you are. You feel you have to show to the world that you are something. That constant imbedded delusions of "power", "greatness" follow you since the times you thought you were a super power (but you could not beat even a pathetically small city like the bankrupt Venice). That is also a great explanation why so many Turks really wish to enter the EU. To prove how great you are.
Forget about the rest. You do not realise that you are nothing spectacular. EU and US investments after decades of action in your backwards country only recently gave you a momentary financial growth for which there is no certainty of continuity if one analyses the big geopolitical game. In the long run, US has every interest to use Turkey as a wall, in the long-run Russia has any interest to by-pass Turkey. In the meanwhile this makes you blind on the dangers that encircle your country especially with its games on the geopolitical map of the area. You saw what happened to little Georgia, don't you ever think that in front of Russians or Americans you are any more bigger than Georgia - remember Jugoslavia? Everything you do depends on the balance between Russians and Americans and less Europeans. In the slightest of disagreement, your country will fly in 4 directions. Not even militarily. But first of all internally. And you have some short of inner understanding of that that is why so many of your pro-democratic lot were conscious pro-kemalists, i.e. pro-fascists, i.e. in reality anti-democratic.
In constrast us Greeks have no illusions and we know how the game is played - and it is not at all us playing it. In a country that saw betrayal after betrayl leading to genocides and world wars, there is no magic that people concentrate into minding their own business and interests. Which of course in turn hits the country thus a large part of them - no need to point that but then each tries to do his best with his own forces but at least this does not provoke misery in other innocent people outside us, unlike your country which has produced all the evil that a country could produce in the 20th century.
Many Turks want to join the EU. Various reasons - though they are not even European people and have no more things in common with Europeans than Syrians or Iranians. In contrast, in a European country like Greece, few Greek wished particularly to join the EU cos we knew that in this political union we would have no voice and one way or another we would be paying it. When our country enterred the EU most people were against and they instantly voted the first party that promised to get Greece out of EU (as well as out of NATO - only to be proven that that this was Papandreou, a politician/US-agent who had different agendas: he splased the EU money thorugh the 80s to convince people they had to become pro-EU. Today we are bound it even geopolitically for the better or for the worse.
I am not going to do the self-analysis for you. That is what you have to do.
"""We are big enough and ugly enough to stand alone. How about your lot Nik old boy?"""
No you don't. Even when you were an Empire, you were Britain's protegés which was of course plain pathetic. Your current country was created thanx to British and Italians back in the 1920s who also permitted you to accomplish the genocides in Minor Asia. You found yourself with European lands because the British gave you them. You found yourself with Cyprus lands because the British invited you to take them. You haven't moved a single cm without consulting Britain or US and right thing you did. You can stand as an independent country but forget about "standing alone".
"""Ellinas,
Is bigot a greek word? if not it should be. Read the age of empires. When the game was played you were no where to be seen. Sorry no apologies here. And no-one here is crying foul for the stuff we lost at the end. We are not whingers. If you are correct about history you must have been so inferior you got shafted by a bunch of vagrant Mongols.
"""Where was your mighty 300?"""
In Gravia Inn battle mate. Gravia Inn battle. Didn't they teach you that at school? So illiterate you are?
You remained in Thermopyles and the 300? That is nothing, we have 100s of such stories. Gravia Inn battle is the coolest though:
Battle of Gravia Inn, May 1821: A 8,000 strong Ottoman army followed by 1,000 cavalry + canons by a day difference arrives descends to central Greece to "massacre" the Greek rebels (i.e. mainly slaughter loot the local population as a reprisal punishment). In the Inn 118 defenders barricade themselves, led by Oddyseas Androutsos.
... One hundred and seventeen + Oddyseas = 118.
Ottoman general, Omer Brioni (perceived one of the best Turkish generals, he was actually of Turkish-Albanian ancestry) asks the rebel to surrender and rebels kill the envoy when dared cursted Greeks. Omer sends the 1/5th of his army to surround the hotel and kill rebels... they fail, then sends another one, they fail, then another, they fail...
Result of the battle of 8,000 Ottomans against 118 Greeks?
Ottoman dead: 300-400 died on spot with their bodies spread around the hotel
Ottoman wounded: 700-800: out of which more than 60% actually was seriously hit and did not survive as proven by the fact that Omer Vryonis got so scared that he actually cancelled all the campaign and went to hide on the nearby island of Euvoia fearing that more Greek rebels would come to finish of his army. Fearing what? 118 men?
Greek dead: 7
Greek wounded: unknown, but all the rest of 111 including Androutsos escaped in the night through the Ottoman ranks!!!!!
After the battle, the next year, Turks decided to send a bigger army of nearly 50,000 only to be massacred by Kolokotronis and an average sized army of 7,000 rebeles!!!!!! But really, after the Gravia Inn battle where 118 kicked 8,000 the 7,000 Greeks vs. 50,000 Ottomans was blatantly unfair to you!!!!
.... and you ask to see again 300 Greeks? You do not really want that do you?
"""And Math was a Greek thing I thought I must have been wrong. So you built nothing for the last 500 because of my Mongols how about the 1500 before that? Maths? 2000-500=1500( Math lesson from an inferior Mongol) lol"""
I guess the Eastern Roman Empire is not enough for you since it was run by Greeks and not your Mongol forefathers, but then how can you avoid the fact that it wasn't the ancient Greeks that taught Europeans how to make the "Renaissance" (which was a Naissance of course as there was nothing prior to it to be reborn) eat with fork and spoon or do a bath more often than at birth, marriage and death - it wasn't the ancient Greeks that taught Europeans how to read and write and go to school but the medieval ones.
Yourself too, you wanted to copy the Agia Sofia and put an Armenian (Sinan) to do it (since no Turk would be knowledgeable enough in that matters...), yet even a capable architect like Sinan was not capable of working with you Turks to make anything better than a bad inferior copy of it... yet you come here to tell us Greeks did not produce anything in the last 1500 years... whatever.
Thus spare us your complexes of inferiority.
"""You Greeks are a funny bunch. I do love you for being you. You make everyone look good."""
Yes. We really made your grandpa Omer and your copyist mercenary archistects look very good indeed.
"""And again no to the EU and Nato. EU is doomed and NATO has filled its mission the SOVIETs are gone."""
So remain NATO beaches if you like just like you were Britain's ones 100 years back which guaranteed your inflated state.
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(there is nothing more enjoyable than answering to inflated little turks - these guys are absolutely phenomenal in having no education, no knowledge at all, no points, no ability to present a valid argument... only thing they know is that they killed everybody but made no genocides or slaughters (which however internally they celebrate openly!) and that they are becoming a great power but they have also a policy of zero problems with others (on which internally though they openly talk about expansion as well as here they do not deny it). "Insult turkishness"... they have a law on it that punishes people wiht 5 or more years prison for saying the wrong word (eg. genocide)... these "European", "democratic" people vehemently support it with super-fanatiscism.
Calling the night day and the day night. I want a single Turk to come here to say:
"We recognise the Minor Asian genocides"
or
"We have to retire our army from Cyprus and give back peoples' lands"
or
"We respect our neighbours' sovereignty and do not support expansionist wars"
Absolutely not. So many weeks no there is not a single Turk that has ever accepted any of the above extremely basic things needed for a nation to be called civilised.
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gf: Alice and I are behind. Just "steady so" (as my captain used to adress the helmsman at watch)
"Here she blows! Port side!" :)
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Re: Keep your "precious" love for the Kurds. They desperately need your love nowadays"
Greek-style?
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314.cool_brush_work wrote: In the modern era there has never been anything quite so remarkably double-standard & also frighteningly naive as the 'liberal' western mind (predominantly in Europe) that blames the USA whilst preaching toleration of the Taliban!
It goes much further. You know what the Dutch Labour party local government of Utrecht said when muslims demanded segregated lines for men and women at the municipal office? They said: SURE! And they even agreed to have the woman's line close an hour early so 'the women could go home and make supper for the husbands'. To this day the Dutch Labour party defends this policy. And its not an isolated incident, either.
Our fundamental freedoms and equality for women are not safe with left wing parties who espouse 'multiculturalism'. The same Dutch labour party I mentioned has already more or less abandoned 'gay rights' (out of fear of 'offending' their muslim voters).
342.oulematu wrote: I do not think the reasons why Turkey might want to join are any different from the reasons for any other state to be a member (e.g., access to a space of free movement of persons, goods, services and capital, and opportunity for a privileged relationship with other member states).
Wrong. Countries do not join to enjoy 'free movement' e.a. they join to get free money at Germany and Netherlands expense. And the policians have their eyes on an unelected double pension job in Brussels.
So it boils down to a more or less arbitrary decision on where and when to draw the EU borders. I do not have an answer, and I did not see any hint of a comprehensive answer in the posts so far. Nor am I convinced that the EU would need to commit itself to any particular answer to this question at this stage.
Its not arbitrary at all, only the pro-EU crowd wants to pretend this is a vague issue (because they love the idea of being able to impose laws on more and more countries and people). Its however very clear, the Bosporus is the border of Europe, so Turkey = Asia-minor. And Asia-minor is not Europe. Period. End of story. Morocco is not Europe, Turkey is not Europe, Japan is not Europe. Mexico is not Europe. New Zealand is not Europe.
323.JBD68 wrote: I am Turkish. Here is my opinion of EU. It seems to be full of bigots like you. So why would anyone in the world want to join a union which bigotry hatred of anything and everything slightly foreign is legendary.
Speaking of bigotry and hatred (and denial of cultural identity): stop the illegal occupation, free Kurdistan! Stop the oppression by Ankara!
How'd ya like dem apples?
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Ozgur;
"European public has spoken and they said they do not want Turkey in the Union."
Don't feel too badly. I'm an American and they reject us too. They also think they are better than we are. This alone is sufficient to make them inferior to us...and to you. Read their postings. Hatred for Turkey, intense jealousy and hatred for America. And if you read carefully you'll find that when you get past the fluff and arrive at the nub of it, they hate each other too. The first thing the Greeks did when there was talk that the Germans might have to bail them out financially and the Germans who were none to happy about it said there would be conditions was to refer to them as Nazis.
Europeans live in an imagined glorious past they want to recreate just the way Iran does. That was the message Chirac and Schroeder made their political careers on, it's what Europeans wanted to hear. Europeans are so preoccupied with the past that they can't see their horrific problems in the present, can't solve them to improve their future. They are stuck in that imagined past. The only thing you can do with the past is talk about it and that is what consumes most of their time and energy. They are joining Africa and South America as a failed continent. Strange but true, American policies in recent years has accelerated their demise, they appear to be on the eve of total collapse.
Look at how they have treated their benefactor America. Nothing by contempt and betrayal. The axis of weasel that hoped Iraq or al Qaeda would attack America on its own soil again, the Megrahi release on an insane pretext and a tapestry of lies, a sellout Iraq by Spain and Italy, and I could go on. It wasn't just their governments, it was their people too. Beleive me you're better off without friends like these. At least it's clear where you stand with them. Some of our people are still deluded that they are our allies. European efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan have either been non existant or tokenism. The UK is willing to send men but not enough adequate equipment. That also just shows you what they think of the value of their soldier's lives, the ones they didn't defend in Iraqi waters against a Navy of Iranian speedboats.
The world is much larger than Europe. The place where the real decisions that affect it are beng made are in North America and Asia. Europeans spin on their own axis in their own little universe going nowhere. Write them off and move on. Any way you look at it they are a lost cause.
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Nik;
"I do not take the above as a real answer. It is us Greeks that do not want to be in any union with a country that right now threats us with war and annexation of our own territories and which in the past has commited every abomibable crime against our populations including one of the most massive and systematic genocides that has been ever commited in human history - that only 100-90 years back"
I assume you are referring to Germany. So I guess Greece won't be taking their money after all. You know what the say, pride goeth before a fall.
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@ 350 Powermeerkat
"Here she blows! Port side!"
Keep away from the propellers man! (A warning that is written at the stern of each sea craft)
(Do not put on the same bench a muslim with an orthodox. It won't work!)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
regarding #344. There is no difference between al Qaeda, Mili Gorus, the grey wolfes, or IHH (with the ship some weeks ago), the Jihad of sauerland (the islamist germans) and many others. Commonality: islamic extremism.
In a specific period of the history, a whole country became sick (germany) and the leaders told their subjects "kill jews, they are inferior people" - which they did.
Today, in another historical period, some other countries are sick (numerous examples in the islamic world) and the leaders tell their subjects more or less loud "kill western people and jews, they are inferior people" - which they do.
Commonality: sick countries.
How did it all ended for germany... we know. How it's going to end for today's sick countries... history will show us.
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Good heavens, listen to yourselves.
We have litty telling us that all he wants is to be left in peace and would appreciate it if "they" did not plant bombs on the railway. I repeat, who are "they"? Funny little brown people with pointy churches and flying carpets? It is not Muslims who plant bombs on trains. It is fundamentalist radical groups which represent tiny minorities and promote a political agenda, not a spiritual one. They make life as complicated for ordinary peace loving Muslims as they do for the rest of us. And few if any are Turks. He refers glibly to his one visit to Speakers Corner and wonders why we tolerate the fundamentalist invective he heard. We tolerate it because it is the very nature of free speech. If you don't like the message, gainsay it or ignore it but don't shoot the messenger. You only erode your own personal freedom.
Then we have Marcus bless him. We Europeans are a bunch of mindless trolls who, depending on his mood, are either so riddled with prejudice and infighting to extent that we are imminent danger of self destruction, or we are the compliant tools in the great game in which Washington dictates all. Whereas he represents an amorphous multicultural, multiracial group who are collectively somewhere higher up the evolutionary scale than God.
You can dress this up in fine language and historical (hysterical?) argument all you like. It remains blind prejudice. Alice and generalissimo_franco - help me here. We are invaded by dangerous fanatics.
(Welcome back Alice xxx).
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to mvr, 352:
STATEMENT
"Countries do not join to enjoy 'free movement' e.a. they join to get free money at Germany and Netherlands expense. And the policians have their eyes on an unelected double pension job in Brussels."
RESPONSE
I partly agree. The EU needs serious reforms. It needs to get rid of or seriously scale down its agricultural and regional subsidies, which in the better case distort the single market and move money into projects of doubtful quality and purpose, and in the worse case feed corruption and fraud. It also needs to reform its political system by increasing democratic accountability and reducing back-door deals and appointments.
But I also partly disagree. Despite the above distraction, the biggest benefit of the EU membership remains access to a single area of free movement. It is a huge boost for any new member state provided the consensus in that state is towards measures that can make the state competitive. This was clearly the case in many of the member states that joined in 2004.
STATEMENT
"Its not arbitrary at all, only the pro-EU crowd wants to pretend this is a vague issue (because they love the idea of being able to impose laws on more and more countries and people). Its however very clear, the Bosporus is the border of Europe, so Turkey = Asia-minor. And Asia-minor is not Europe. Period. End of story. Morocco is not Europe, Turkey is not Europe, Japan is not Europe. Mexico is not Europe. New Zealand is not Europe."
RESPONSE
I disagree. Geographical borders are to a large extent arbitrary. Turkey often appears in maps of Europe, and the distance between Greek islands and Turkey is minimal. This is a political decision. There is no reason why the EU should give up on its policy interests by simplistically relying on mechanical or deterministic notions of geography. There is no fundamental reason why Turkey or countries such as Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Cyprus, or other countries, could never be admitted into the EU provided there is mutual interest in such arrangement. I am not aware that Japan, Mexico or New Zealand would be lining up to join the EU. Of course, should the EU decide to take in a number of lower income countries, it may need to reconsider some of its policies (e.g., financing of public infrastructure; but see also my comment above on subsidies).
Nor do I understand the reference to the "pro-EU crowd". I assume if someone is anti-EU, he/she is in favor of disbanding the EU, i.e., they would not ponder the EU's enlargement? By the way, by "accession" I meant voluntary not forced accession. It is a two-way discussion, as I made clear in my original post.
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#357 - litty
Sick countries? What sick countries?
We are talking about a small bunch of extremists. Compare them with Bader-Meinhof by all means but not Nazi Germany. You are on a very dangerous road indeed if you start to tar millions with the same brush. In fact, you are on a road which is not so far removed from the one that led to Auchwitz.
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"Then we have Marcus bless him. We Europeans are a bunch of mindless trolls who, depending on his mood, are either so riddled with prejudice and infighting to extent that we are imminent danger of self destruction, or we are the compliant tools in the great game in which Washington dictates all."
That's what the term "mental atrophy" means Threnodious, use it or lose it.
"Whereas he represents an amorphous multicultural, multiracial group who are collectively somewhere higher up the evolutionary scale than God."
I've posted elsewhere that I do not believe in god but America is clearly far more socially evolved than Europe is. BTW, have you investigated Budapest School District #8 yet? You seemed rather interested in it when I first brought up the Deutche Welle report. What happen, your attention span run its course?
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I have a practical question - does anyone here have a netbook, not a note-book?
I bough a netbook 2 days ago for the use in the dacha and it is awful slow, sometimes I type something in a blog and only 2 min later it shows up on screen, with a delay. Not so much here on BBC, it works better with BBC, but with other chat place - plain disaster. Is it normal for netbooks to be so slow?I ve got nothing to comare with. Tiny thing, screen 10, American by the way :o
Intel Atom N 450 320 GB HDD, 2GB Memory.
Weak processor as it seems with them net ones all but otherwise all fine (must be)
Catches internet via a modem tiny thing put in on the side into USB port from a mobile phone provider "unlimited" ha ha tariff speed 512 or smth of transfer 3G technology they say. the quickest one
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I am in the shop in fact angry trying to return back the thing. They resist :o)
So don't know will I be online again or not
The mobile provider I'm definitely casting away off
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powermeer I wrote you many fascinating things but all vanished as money ended greedy provider ate up 550 roubles this morn.
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#362 - WebAliceinwonderland
No technical reason for it to be so slow. It is either configured badly or there is a major issue with your internet service but that does not explain why the keyboard response time is slow.
#361 - MarcusAureliusII
"That's what the term "mental atrophy" means Threnodious".
Really? And there was I thinking it meant losing all your marbles in your dotage. Ring any bells?
"BTW, have you investigated Budapest School District #8 yet? You seemed rather interested in it when I first brought up the Deutche Welle report. What happen, your attention span run its course?"
It is not a matter of my attention span Marcus. There are local elections in October and it is an issue in that district. Wait, watch and listen.
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#360 threnodio_II
I am sorry, i don't agree with you. Unfortunately we are dealing with extremist organisations that represent the views of hundred of milions of people (men and women, clear thinking people, able to love and hate like everyone else, "peace loving" if you want to name them like that). They are not guilty per se that they believe in a religion whose values they interpret in such a way that all other non-believers are considered inferior and have to be "converted" by sword. So we have a situation where a world religion supports values that are completely opposite to what the free western societies value. I take note of that, understand that religions are what they are, and say: let us separate ourselves and let's see which type of society has the future. My opinion is that a western-type, free-thinking, open-minded society is still better than the dark ages mentality propagated in islamic countries. The book "Clash of civilisations" shows geographically the interaction points of the civilizations. Keep the interaction points to the minimum, trade goods if you want, learn about the other cultures and appreciate them if such - that is a solution. The solution is not to accept, under the mantle of the free speech and democracy, undemocratic organisations, supporting nationalistic and totalitarian views. UK has decided, under the guise of liberalism and free-speech, to accept such organisations. If this is good or not, i cannot say.
When is a country sick ? Here a definition: when a country like germany, through a democratic election process (1933 was a democratic election), bring to power a party (nazi) whose ideology is the destruction of all the european jews, then the country is sick and the people of that country can be identified with the genocide that has taken place. Let's see other examples: Iran, with a more of less democratic elections, brought to power the islamic republic under Khomeini. Iran's agenda is a global one: destruction of Israel and the West. According to my definition Iran is a sick country. Another example: Sudan. A more or less democratic election keeps in power a regime that is doing a genocide in Darfour. It is of course done by peace-loving muslims against other peace-loving muslims, which unfortunaely have other colours. Is Turkey a sick country ? Not yet, but well underway. A possible genocide against its kurdish population would confirm this. An exacerbated nationalism is seen in not in "some extremist" turkish organisations, but in the mainstream of the turkey's organisation and representation, with millions of people supporting this. The newspapers, the book, the schools, the movies - they all support extremely nationalistic views. This is exactly like the way Germany has started, Herrenmenschen and such.
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Alice: have a practical question - does anyone here have a netbook, not a note-book?
Alice: I'm sorry to say that but an netbook, any netbook is by definition a p... of s...
If you can return it and get your money back buy even a small notebook (11"-12") but with a dual core CPU (at least at 1.3 GHz) and a g-protocol Wi-Fi card. ['that's 'g', not 'b'!]
Of course it still won't help much if you have joke instead of IP provider. But if you can change it you should be all right.
P.S. Since it's so hot in your region perhaps you should go to N. Chukotka for a week or so?
The breeze is cool there, rent is cheap, and you should be within range of at some American Wi-Fi networks, e.g. on Diomedes.
[Of course you'd have even more options if you got yourself a small portable Wi-Max antena. It's worth it.]
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Alice, just read your next post.
Sorry, but if the fastest you can get is 512 kb, you won't be able to download anything from the Net at a decent pace.
Fast 4-6 core CPU, 12-24 GB DDR3, the best GPU, etc., may make your work on a PC bearable, as long as you DON'T connect to the Net.
If you do, anything under realistic 2Mb/sec down will give your grief.
Can you get yourself a cable IP where you live permanently?
Cable should give you at least 8-20 Mb. [old copper wire - won't]
Cable service should be available at least in Peter or Moscow.
Good luck!
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powermeerkat, I've always wondered why people spend money on the things they do. Why would anyone buy a netbook? Or a computer based on the Intel atom processor? Why do they buy i-books when it costs as much or more than a laptop which can do everything it can do and a lot more? I always wondered why given that most people don't buy one of these every day but have to live with their decisions for years, why they just go out and buy the first think they see without doing even a little research. And I wonder who buys them...and broken down used cars without even having a mechanic look at it first. Now I know.
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I can only despair that everyone seems to refer to economics whilst human rights go large unnoticed. Cameron certainly has scant regard it seems, as when he was -even under a false pretence- declaring himself an advocate for Turkish membership and praising the country's leadership, the thousands of Kurdish people were left stranded in their homes in the Turkish town of DORTYOL where their homes and business have been under racist attacks from Turkish nationalists. The authorities and the police have condoned these attacks of arson and assault on the Kurdish families by remaining silent and closing the city down to stop any Kurdish observers entering the town. The Kurds are virtual prisoners in their own home. Mr Cameron's reckless comments about the 'Prison Camp' in Gaza rings 'Hollow' when the thousands of Kurdish children were left under attack in their own homes. And for those who debate the Turkish membership, I would say 'Get Real'.
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#370
Honest broker, tension between Turks and Kurds r at an all time high, unfortunately. It is at such a high point that a break-up has been mentioned by business leaders. As far as dortyol, I do know that citizens, nationalist or otherwise, out of anger attacked the headquarters of BDP, ( a Kurdish party sympathetic to the PKK), but as far as Kurdish families being trapped at home, you r the only one claiming it. Perhaps u r mixing people choosing not to go out for fear of safety with people actually being under house arrest. Also ask yourself this why do Turks choose not to live in predominantly Kurdish areas like Diyarbakir, or Batman?
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#322
Marcus, just do a search for "Mr. Silverstein says pull it", caught with his pants down, he later had to make a b.s statement about thats not what he meant. Really Marcus, u seem like a smart enough guy, u should not believe everything the gov, says.
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MAII "powermeerkat, I've always wondered why people spend money on the things they do. Why would anyone buy a netbook? Or a computer based on the Intel atom processor?"
No clue. I'm not an electronic engineer but I build my own work stations.
As you know, it's not complicated at all if you have even a basic understanding how the key components have to be matched and wired.
BTW. Late Seymour Cray has always described himself as a "packager". RIP.
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"Also ask yourself this why do Turks choose not to live in predominantly Kurdish areas like Diyarbakir, or Batman?"
I've been to places like Van, Batman, Diyarbakir, or even Hakkari and Agri.
Scary, absolutely scary.
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Re AiW and MAII comments...
I've just checked Russian ruble's exchange to a dollar.
[It's basically 30 rubles to $1.00].
If what Alice has reported is true, how can Messr. Medvedev and Putin hope to link Russia's citizens via Internet?
BTW. I'm curious how much a basic Internet IP connection service costs in Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey, respectively?
[say for 2, 4, 8Mb/sec ADSL]
And what's the fastest one can get there?
Perhaps contributors from those countries could tell me?
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Re §§55
generalissimo_franco wrote:
@ 350 Powermeerkat
"Here she blows! Port side!"
Keep away from the propellers man! (A warning that is written at the stern of each sea craft)
As I've mentioned earlier I was sailing the Aegean quite recently (from Pireus to Istanbul via some Greek islands, Marmaris, Bodrum, Canakkale)
What surprised me was that they had LCD displays connected to cameras monitoring the engine room, but, although the boat had computerized sails
[it was a 4-mast thing] they had no video of sails themselves on her bridge.
So one had to jump out every now and then from the bridge to starboard or port side to check visually whether the sails were catching anything, and only then jump back in and adjust.
[The boat's captain said they were hoping to get money for an upgrade.]
BTW. Have you ever sailed around Horn? [which is not actually a cape]
Now, that's a nasty piece of work.
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"'ve posted elsewhere that I do not believe in god but America is clearly far more socially evolved than Europe is.",
yeah, about that one, can I just squeeze in a few (obviously totally irrelevant) data?
prison population:
US: 738 per 100,000 people
EU: 79 per 100,000 people
murder rate:
US: 5.4 per 100,000 people
EU 0.9 per 100.000 people
Human development index:
US: 13th position
EU 3rd position
I could go on about adult literacy, child poverty, violent crime, racially motivated crime, life expectancy, etc... but I'll just rest my case here. "Social evolution" doesn't seem to go a very long way.
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ammendment: I have just seen a more recent hdi (of 2009), and the EU is on fifth place, with Norway, Iceland, Japan, Switzerland being first, second, third and fourth.
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Chris
If we dumped at least 12 million illegal aliens (many of them criminals and narcotraficantes) would you have to adjust YOUR statistics?
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Re #279
Are you seriously comparing midgets like Iceland or Switzerland (with no or very little immigration) to a huge country of much more than 300 million people?
Btw. Switzerland, Norway, etc., are not EU members.
Perhaps that's why they have better statistics than many a EU country?
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well, powermeerkat, if Europe expelled all ITS criminals, illegal immigrants, poor people, we would have to adjust the statistics yet again now, wouldn't we? You catch my drift?
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@ 380 - not at all. I am simply conceding that Europe is no longer in third place anymore.
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powermeerkat, it may very well be that Switzerland, Norway, Iceland are much better off outside the E.U. If you want to see it that way, I'm not going to argue about it. But to put it to this forum, as MarcusAureliusII did, that the US is "socially more evolved than Europe", is a bit of a stretch, no?
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CC, in Europe the criminals are allowed to go free. In fact often their crimes don't even come to light. Would you like to talk about Ireland. How many tens of thousands of cases of child abuse including physical abuse, sexual abuse, and mental cruelty committed by employees of the Catholic Church went unreported and will go unpunished? An entire criminal enterprise has just been uncovered and the laws protect the perps from being prosecuted.
Just one example you say? How about the Italian police turing a blind eye to all of the people trafficking that goes on there?
What about all of the discrimination in hiring and housing based on race and ethnicity? All of these are crimes or would be if committed in the US. So is the open sale and use of illegal narcotic drugs in places like the Netherlands. So is the price fixing and collusion by European retailers. In fact much of what goes on in Europe would be prosecutable if it happened the way it does in the US.
The example of Megrahi shows Europe's attitude towards crime and punishment, it's the same attitude it has to external aggression and threats such as from Islamic terorists. It gives it the ostrich treatment unless looking at it is unavoidable at which point it just shrugs its shoulders. Europe talks a good game but it is all talk and no action except when it comes to raising taxes. Crime statistics are low in Europe because a lot of crime goes unreported or unprosecuted.
As for education, I've met a lot of Europeans and I don't think they are any smarter on average than Americans. They certainly don't know much history, even their own. What are the math and reading scores on standardized tests for those students in Budapest school district #8 I posted about? When they get out of school can they even read and write? There are countless comparable examples in practically every major city in every country in Europe. Racial and ethnic discrimination and the oppresiveness it brings may be illegal on paper in Europe but in practice it is the rule not the exception, it is ignored, and it goes uncorrected. It is the epitome of European hypocricy.
Wherever you go in Europe, you find that people who live in the same place as others who are of a different ethnicity, different culture, different race can't stand each other. Czech and Slovaks don't want to be part of the same country, same for Catholic and Protestant Irish, Catalonians and other Spaniards, Scots and English, Flemish and Walloons, and wherever else you go yet they all want to be part of the EU where they are forced together. Can you explain the loogic of that?
Just because America made it possible for Europeans to prosper after WWII in the hope that they would finally stop killing each other, we can't make them stop hating each other. Only they can do that and it's something that they seem to relish far too much to consider giving up. That is the real European tradition. I view European tribalism just the same way you would view tribes in what you consider primitive places like parts of Africa. That is how I see you, as social primitives and tribalists. Now do you want to tell me from the Greek perspective how Germans are Nazis and the Turks are subhuman. And they are at least in part in Europe whether you like it or not.
But you are right about one thing, there are more criminals in prison in America and there is more overt violence. We give people much more freedom including the right to own guns and then we hold them accountable if they abuse the responsibility that comes with the privilege.
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powermeerkat;
"how can Messr. Medvedev and Putin hope to link Russia's citizens via Internet?"
Russia remains a primitive place even by European standards.
If you've followed the news there, you will see it was not necessary to nuke Russia to wipe it out. Global warming is proving just as effective. The best way to attack Russia (and China and India) is to go out and buy an SUV and drive it around the US. EU leaders are driving theirs all over Europe (While they preach their hypocricy about CO2 emissions, energy conservation, and climate change to their hapless gullable subjects.)
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"CC, in Europe the criminals are allowed to go free. In fact often their crimes don't even come to light."
uh, ok. That's an interesting hypothesis, but how would you corroberate that?
"In fact much of what goes on in Europe would be prosecutable if it happened the way it does in the US."
Well, that would suggest to me that Europe gives people more freedoms in certain aspects of life.
"Can you explain the loogic of that?"
No, you're absolutely on the money, it's illogical. And old-fashioned. Thankfully, it's become quite rare for people to hate each other for their origin. For instance, only a very reactionary and backward American would hate Europeans just for being Europeans :-).
Only pulling your leg, do carry on!
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"Well, that would suggest to me that Europe gives people more freedoms in certain aspects of life."
No, it just ignores crimes including failing to investigate them and prosecute them. I already said that.
"Thankfully, it's become quite rare for people to hate each other for their origin."
Is that why the first reaction of the Spanish government after the Madrid bombing was to blame ETA?
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"No, it just ignores crimes including failing to investigate them and prosecute them. I already said that."
I would have to repeat my question - how can this claim be corroberated?
By the way, you said -
"What about all of the discrimination in hiring and housing based on race and ethnicity? All of these are crimes or would be if committed in the US."
(in case anyone's interested, discriminating against someone because of his/her ethnicity is a crime in EVERY EU member state)
AND:
"All of these are crimes or would be if committed in the US."
plus
"Crime statistics are low in Europe because a lot of crime goes unreported or unprosecuted."
clearly shows that you see the laws as more permissive and freedom-granting in Europe than they are in America. Your words, not mine.
"Is that why the first reaction of the Spanish government after the Madrid bombing was to blame ETA?"
I cannot see how this would prove anything either way.
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CC:
"I cannot see how this would prove anything either way."
That's what I can depend upon with Europeans. The truth can stare them square in the face but if it's something they don't want to see they have no problem pretending it doesn't even exist....until the roof literally caves in on them as it always does. Then they will blame anyone and everyone except themselves for not having done something to prevent it.
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Thanks everybody. Powermeer I wrote down 2 4 8 mb/sec ADSL and will try to shop for it around.
Can't stay on-line; did wonders past 24 hrs trying to get myself internet connection at dacha (20 min away off the city subway station :o) - verdict: for no money.
Quarrelled dd rr? anyway to pieces with internet mobile provider, for they sold me "Unlimited internet" for a month and took money, and confirmed 3 times I have unlimited switched on - then the "unlimited" ended yest. morning :o))) And their operator sweetly informed me Yep, you've got unlimited, but we charge for it as for limited. Because you haven't changed an option (someplace in the computer :o))))))))))))) -
"catch GPRS mode only and don't catch 3G."
Naturally I moaned "who told me?!" and "where?" "you charged money; on your site my number became marked as Unlimited traffic; your telephone op confirmed I've got unlimited traffic now and should not worry - and no one of your company said a word of changing some configuration in the computer (still don't know where :o))))))
They said they can't help, money was charged to the account as for limited (aforementioned 500 roubles a day :o))))) Yes it is 20 dollars or slightly less), so money is gone, I owe them even 100 roubles more :o)))))
and "Pay all over again for the Unlimited the second time; change the option in your PC to cheaper GPRS (and slower) because you are enjoing 3G unlawfully :o)))))))))) - and you will have Unlimited on slower GPRS.
I sent them to hell with such ideas, that is went to their office and left a 4 -page complaint :o))))))) passionately composed last night :o))))
and they said I will get a negative answer by post within a month, after which I can go to law, that is to the court on Consumer rights of servicces and whatever, and try my lucj to get the funds :o)))))) back from the company. I think I will, I am very angry. 1,500 roubles on total in 36 hrs for Unlimited Traffic - and no internet in the dacha - neither limited nor unlimited :o))))))). And I owe them "99 roubles 4 copecks".
Anyway I am in the city apt right now, trying how the netbookie works on normal line, not mobile internet, but that wire that comes into my apt.
Must say it works absolutely the samе crappy :o))))))) by internet wire sticked into its side as by a modem from mobile internet providers sticked into its side yest in the dacha :o)))))))
Must ask the line provider in the city apt what is their speed of transfer the hell - but something tells me it's not ab those 2 4 and 8 something as mentioned by power & meer (and Sons)
(Why do I think of sea-gulls when I see "powermeer" ? Nevermind.)
I'm returning back to unlimited :o))))) dacha and will think what to do next.
What threnodio says must make sense, slow key-board response - can also be crappy configuration of the netbook itself.
I think I should try how it goes in the Microsoft Office.
Of other things I don't know who to blame - the netbook itself or the internet various providers, but have a feeling it's the netbook thing somehow - because by the same city provider the normal notebook (Alas, Mum's) works absolutely fine.
And yes I tried to return the netbook back to the store :o)))) or exchange it for a notebook, but was turned down, and, alas, lawful, this time, as fit technical things by law are unreturnable in Russia :o(
To p[rove that it's un-fit I don't know how as the store says "all netbooks are weak and slower than all note-books; what did you expect?"
I can;'t know as have zero friends and acquaintance who ever bought a netbook - no more such idiots around.
The un-known to me person whose name may be starts with capital "M" - the reason why people do it is because a bank turns them down for a credit for a normal note-book, thern they get mean and angry, and go to another store - where sits another bank giving loans for technical things' purchase - and buy whatever! in 5 minutes. That's my case, at least.
The other store didn't have a single decent note-book IMHO :o)))))
(all black buttons and I wanted them white) - but did have a netbook with white buttons. :o))))))
So that's what I've got :o))))
Buy , tovarischee :o)))))), I am getting off line again until I undertake further clever technical-financial enterprises :o))))))
and it was my birthday today i vaguely think to top it all
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I am sure the opinion of our PM would change quickly, if he was aware of the ability of these people to avoid legal requirements, such as paying taxes. Here the Germans have more experience, although they do not say so for diplomatic reasons.
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@ 376 Powermeerkat
"BTW. Have you ever sailed around Horn? [which is not actually a cape]"
Never. Several guys of my promotion did. (I am graduate of the 1972 promotion of the HNS of Varna). They say the Horn was a very nasty place.
I left the navy in 1979; than was appointed as a chief mate to a merchantman, but never succeeded to be promoted to the grade of a cap. Left the fleet in 1985 after having navigated in the Med(Greece, Turkey, Italy, Syria, Tunisia, Algeria, Marocco), the English chan (UK, Belgium, Portugal), the North/South Atlantic (Cuba, Brazil), and of course in the Black Sea...
Regards
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387 Homer Simpson writes:
"Thankfully, it's become quite rare for people to hate each other for their origin."
"Is that why the first reaction of the Spanish government after the Madrid bombing was to blame ETA?"
And is that why the first reaction of the American government after the Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995 was to blame Muslim terrorists rather than all-American boy Timothy McVeigh?
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Common Peggy;
"And is that why the first reaction of the American government after the Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995 was to blame Muslim terrorists rather than all-American boy Timothy McVeigh?"
Because the previous attempt by terrorists to blow up a building in the US and one of the only ones in memory at the time was by the Blind Sheikh who still languishes in a New York Prison. McVeigh turned out to be an anomoly. We haven't had another comparable attempt by a home grown terrorist since. The instincts were correct, all that was missing whas the facts. Seems with the IRA out of the way that's where mass murderers who strike the UK come from as well, the ranks of Islamic terrorists.
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I agree with MarcusAurelius on Europe's tribalism. I find that many posts in this and other threads provide inadvertent evidence in favor of the assertions of MarcusAurelius who has been almost uniformly accused of bias against Europe. It is a shame, because if it were not for its tribalism, Europe would have a lot to offer.
In my view the US has things to improve compared to Europe, especially the health insurance system which fails millions of people, the gun violence, the overcomplicated legal system and overlawyered society, and the dependence on cars. However, in my view, the basic point still holds - northern America is a more inclusive society than (esp. continental) Europe and is more accepting of minority individuals. And that is very important for a free constitutional democracy, and (esp. continental) Europe needs to fix that.
Sorry, not trying to lecture anyone, just expressing my view on a topic that is important for me. Hopefully I was sufficiently concise and clear.
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#220 Scott0962
Aren't you a bit out of date ? What culture has Europe that hasn't been so diluted with incoming cultures ? I do not think Europe has any culture to influence , rather it is the other way around . At least the French are trying to maintain their culture by banning the Burka .
The destroying of Eurpean culture in the interests of globalism has sickened me ; I'm glad now to live far away in a 3rd world country .
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Alice wrote:
Why do I think of sea-gulls when I see "powermeer" ?
I,. in turn, often think of Chekhov when I see seaguls.;)
Unfortunately meerkats are desert animals.
Most of them live in Kalahari.
Although some in the Mojavi Desert as well. (at least part time). :)
P.S. Please, tell me how much do they charge in major Russian cities for
2 or 4 Mb (that's megabIts, not megabYtes!) per second.
regards,
BTW. I'd love to know how much they charge fo the same in Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey these days.
thanks in advance,
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Re 392
These guys certainly don't have Mysterious Voices of Bulgaria.
But they sure sound like the know how to haul away. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXNT-EiA2LU
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149. At 2:24pm on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"BTW., Present day Greeks have about as much in common with ancient Greeks as present day Egyptians have in common with the ancient ones, or present day Peruvians with ancient Inkas.
Namely: NOTHING!"
Says who? While the modern Egyptians no longer speak Egyptian but Arabic, many indigenous Peruvians still speak Quechua – the language of the Inca Empire. Likewise, the Greeks of today still speak Greek. You should get your facts straight before resorting to such sweeping generalizations in order to score a cheap political point.
Regarding the substance of this thread, Turkey will never join the EU for the simple reason that it isn't European – geographically, culturally or politically. The opinions of David Cameron, who may think of the Turks as Europeans but would be too afraid of the British public to identify himself as one, are of no consequence whatsoever.
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Re:saling 'round Cape Horn (generalissimofranco)
Oh, I wish I was never born
heave away, haul away
to sail around that damned Cape Horn
heave away, haul away
to come to South Australia.
["Rolling Kings" FYI, being them roaring 30s :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vUqeDPZZ80
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The EU has enough problems on its own as it is at the moment,
without letting another country, be that Turkey or not, become a member...
It's obvious that the biggest problem of the EU is its decision making process on major issues, its ability to shape strategies and see them through. One of the reasons for that is that the UK has been a diluting factor right from the get-go, although no one can be sure if the rest of them would have done any better on their own. Perhaps the UK provides them with a very convenient scape goat sometimes for the lack of further integration. The fact is that no player in the EU has ever put the Union's interests before its own as of yet...
As for Turkey, it already enjoys absolutely free trade with the EU for several years, so the argument that it is needed for trade reasons does not hold.
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"The instincts were correct, all that was missing whas the facts."
And the "instincts" weren't correct when Aznar suspected ETA?
By the way, you are yet to explain how I can fact-check your claim that in Europe, crimes don't come to light and criminals are allowed to walk free. Are you going to avoid answering this question the same way you avoided my questions about your claim that the German media do not talk about anti-Turkish incidents in Germany?
And I still fail to see how your ETA comment would prove anything either way.
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@ 400 Powermeerkat
"Oh, I wish I was never born
heave away, haul away
to sail around that damned Cape Horn
heave away, haul away
to come to South Australia..."
Thanks a lot. The fishermen's friends reminded me both of my youth (I devoted to the fleet) and our pure orthodox church chorus when young monks in the St Alexandre Nevsky Cathedral (in the mere centre of Sofia) would sing in four different voices the psalms of the messa...
Thanks again. Shall try to look for some good piece of Bulgarian vocals /pure folklore, arranged a little bit)...
Clean forgot to tell you that called several times at Gdansk, Gdynia, Swineoustie (1979-1985)... Plenty of nice souvenirs....(...nice evenings in the harbor saloons, heavily arosed with "Zoubrovka")....Oh Youth, the strength of it...(Josef Conrad)
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generalissimo: not too great a music; but pretty sizeable decks. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r57xBA0MtC0&feature=related
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138. At 1:53pm on 28 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"@ Nik, honestly you need to stop flogging that dead horse of yours. I am not Turkish. I am British. I am in favour of Turkey joining the E.U., not because I am "Turkish" (what gave you that idea anyway?) but because it is strong, economically, as well as culturally and scientifically."
Not really. Economically, it has barely begun to emerge from many years of steep decline. Its official "growth" rate as recently as last year was -5.6%, significantly worse than Greece's. Its per capita GDP is lower than that of the poorest EU members, while its human development index is much lower. Culturally, Turkey is a hodgepodge of the civilizations which preceded it. Has it actually produced anything original? Scientifically? When was the last scientific innovation made in Turkey?
"You are not in a good position to call on Turkey for the fact they once had to go to the IMF. Greece has been a dead weight and a millstone around the E.U.'s neck ever since it entered."
Are you sure you're not talking about your native Britain? Most other Europeans I speak to can't stand the sight of you, for some reason.
"The developed economies in France, Germany and Britain cannot even see a strong cultural difference between Turkey and Greece. To us, it is just a case of east Turkey and west Turkey and the western part has got that quaint idea of being somehow "different"."
Why not east Greece and west Greece? After all, the Byzantine Greek influence on the Ottoman Turks was far more profound than any Turkish contribution to Greek culture. Or do you regard "Turk" as an insult, as suggested by Nik?
"The differences, however, are so minute and so negligible that it takes the utmost of concentration and focus on the part of a British or German person to tell the two countries and peoples apart."
That's all right; we have difficulty telling the two of you apart ourselves. You're all the same inebriated Germanic-speaking barbarians to us.
"Oh and about "retiring" people from northern Cyprus (presumably, you meant evacuating the population) - that is not going to happen, as doing so would be a major crime against those people's human rights."
Unlike the comprehensive expulsion of Greeks from northern Cyprus, which was perfectly legitimate?
At 5:04pm on 28 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"Enough of this nonsense. Greeks have their own country. Their fate has been theirs to forge all along and, sadly, too many of them decided to turn Greece into a squalid little dump and call it a "civilisation", due to the fact that some ancient civilisation used to exist there."
For a squalid little dump, it still attracts a fair few of your enlightened compatriots. They must prefer it over the shitty little island off the northern coast of France.
"The people of Northern Cyprus belong to Northern Cyprus. All calls for ethnic cleansing must be repudiated. Any attempt at ethnically cleansing Cyprus, or Kosovo or parts of Georgia must be confronted and stopped."
Except when it happens to the Greeks, right?
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Re #399
I know Peru quite well.
And have been told by more one Peruvian anthropologists that there's no evidence that the present day Peruvians can be reasonably linked to Inkas.
BTW. one of them told me: "If we had been, our society would have had as great accomplishments as Inkas. And if present day Egyptians had been like their ancient ancecstors they'd have been one of the greatest civilizations around".
Now, they clearly aren't.
Unlike Hindus or Chinese.
With both present day India and China doing quite well, wouldn't you say?
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293. At 6:28pm on 29 Jul 2010, Menedemus wrote:
"If there was evidence that there were Turks involved in any of the terrorist atrocities committed in the last few years inside the EU Nations other than Greece..."
Because Turkish involvement in atrocities committed inside Greece would be acceptable, in your view?
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Re# 403 gf
Any link to any piece of Bulgarian folk music other than that already recorded many times (like "Sleeping Tudora", e.g.) would be greatly appreciated.
BTW. Don Ellis' "Bulgarian Bulge" recording with Milcho is still one of my favorites.
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CC there are none so blind as those who will not see.
"how I can fact-check your claim that in Europe, crimes don't come to light and criminals are allowed to walk free."
There are too many to count, it's too easy a question to answer. You're putting us on...except you are serious because you are European.
Look at Ireland. How many tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of children were aboused by the Catholic Church? How many complaints went ignored, complaints to the police, parents, even church officials. And how many will go to prison for it? None. How many will pay compensation in civil suits? None.
Discrimination in housing, employment, and all manner of public accomodations are perpetrated against people based on race, ethnicity, religion all over Europe every single day and nobody there thinks twice about it. Those are crimes here. So is failure to pay equally for the same work or give the same promotional opportunities based on sexual discrimination here. How many of these crimes have been prosecuted in Europe? How many lawsuits have been brought, judgements handed down? It is one thing to have laws on the books, quite another to enforce them. Euorpe has far more problems than mere tribalism. Anyway, it doesn't matter anymore, it's going the way of the dinosaur soon. Turkey should be and will be glad it won't go down with it.
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Re: WebAliceinwonderland and the prices for internet
I pay a littlle bit less than 12 euros (22 leva) for 30 Mbits download/20 Mbits upload speed in Sofia. This is the cheapest package on offer with this provider. The most expensive one is about 20 euros for 50 Mbits download/33 Mbits upload, I think. This is a little bit above the average, as prices go in Sofia, but the provider (Megalan)is very reliable, so I choose to pay a bit more. Yuo can get lower prices with other providers, for similar speeds. There are also package deals for Internet+Digital cable TV - the prices are form 20 euros per month, up to 26 eur/p/m for the same respective speeds; the number of TV channels included vary from 93 to 141. The company is called Megalan (you can check yourself at www.megalan.bg), but many other providers offer similar prices. Best regards!
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406. At 12:41pm on 01 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Re #399
I know Peru quite well.
And have been told by more one Peruvian anthropologists that there's no evidence that the present day Peruvians can be reasonably linked to Inkas."
Peruvian anthropologists of indigenous or European extraction? It seems rather silly to deny the obvious fact that they are of the same racial stock and speak the same indigenous languages. The preservation of Inca traditions among modern Quechua-speaking populations is well documented. The fact that they were brutally conquered does not mean they vanished off the face of the earth.
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"Look at Ireland. How many tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of children were aboused by the Catholic Church? How many complaints went ignored, complaints to the police, parents, even church officials."
Yes, how many?
"Discrimination in housing, employment, and all manner of public accomodations are perpetrated against people based on race, ethnicity, religion all over Europe every single day and nobody there thinks twice about it."
Yes, I did understand these claims. My question was not, "could you repeat your claims, please?" It was "how would one go about fact-checking your numerous claims about Europe?"
@ MACEDNUS
I am not going to dignify your post with a lengthy answer, as the Mad Greek has spouted much of the same lame drivel about Greece/Northern Europe many times before. Just a quick comment about the term "barbarian" - you look and sound a little silly with your constant and tiresome "we're an ancient civilisation" nonsense when all that's left of it is a few crumbling ruins and your relationship with the "barbarians" of the north consists almost entirely of you begging for alms and them giving you alms.
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CC;
"Yes, I did understand these claims. My question was not, "could you repeat your claims, please?" It was "how would one go about fact-checking your numerous claims about Europe?""
You don't seem to get it. I saw it for myself first hand when I lived there. That is what the experience at the industrial trade fair at Le Lac was about. That's what Moslems burning down France is about. That's what Budapest school district #8 is about. That's what Hungarians complaining about the way Slovaks treat them is about. That's what Turks not even bothering anymore to report being beaten up by German skinheads because nothing will be done to them is about. Do I have to list every country in Europe with examples? That IS what Euope is about. And it is about the hypcricy that on the one hand that denies that it exists and on the other tries to point the finger at every opportunity to prove that is what the US is about. Wherever I went in Europe I saw evidence of it. People can tell me that Europe has changed since I was there but the reports in the news and what I get from people who have been there even recently says if anything it's gotten ever worse. Maybe you are blind to it but I am not. It is unmistakable.
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412. At 3:22pm on 01 Aug 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"I am not going to dignify your post with a lengthy answer..."
Camp, indeed.
"...as the Mad Greek has spouted much of the same lame drivel about Greece/Northern Europe many times before."
I fail to see how your hateful drivel is in any way superior. Greeks tend not to take kindly to know-it-all foreigners describing their country as a "squalid little dump", especially when those words could much more aptly describe the foggy, muddy shithole that is your homeland.
"Just a quick comment about the term "barbarian" - you look and sound a little silly with your constant and tiresome "we're an ancient civilisation" nonsense when all that's left of it is a few crumbling ruins and your relationship with the "barbarians" of the north consists almost entirely of you begging for alms and them giving you alms."
We are demonstrably an ancient civilization – the documented history of the Greek language stretches back at least 3,500 years. You may not like it, but that in fact makes us the oldest civilization on the planet. The Chinese, whose earliest written records come a very close second, were mired in abject poverty until fairly recently. Being an ancient civilization does not make one immune to economic adversity. Besides, I wouldn't be so smug if I were you. The British budget deficit is worse than Greece's at the moment, is it not?
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Looking at what Europeans say about each other, about each other's countries, about each other's societies and just on this thread alone. It's typical of what they usually say about each other. So this is apparently what they call a union. What would they call it if it were not a union...war?
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415. At 5:11pm on 01 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Looking at what Europeans say about each other, about each other's countries, about each other's societies and just on this thread alone. It's typical of what they usually say about each other. So this is apparently what they call a union. What would they call it if it were not a union...war?"
What the red and blue states say about each other isn't too far off, is it now?
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"The fact that they were brutally conquered does not mean they vanished off the face of the earth."
Surprise, surprise - they did.
Ask any reputable Peruvian (which of course means a Peruvian) anthropologist.
Sorry about that.
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If somebody calls himself a Macedonus he must be from FYROM, right? :)
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Re #410 DLT.
Thnaks,
Those prices sound quite reasonable, if you REALLY get those 20 Mbs or 50Mbs down.
Have you or any of your friends have ever uses any reliable (independent) speed tester to verify it?
[Quite a few IP providers deliver actually less than they advertize.
In more than one country.]
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Macedonia Nut;
"What the red and blue states say about each other isn't too far off, is it now?"
Is that why so many New Yorkers volunteered and just picked up and went to Louisiana and the other gulf states to help out after Katrina? Is that why so many Americans from all over the country including the South came to New York City after 9-11? I don't think you know much about America or Americans. We're all Red, White, and Blue.
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418. At 7:12pm on 01 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"If somebody calls himself a Macedonus he must be from FYROM, right? :)"
Not quite.
1. It's MACEDNVS, not Macedonus.
2. The term is synonymous with Hellene, according to Herodotus and every reputable historian since; ergo
3. The M in FYROM is a misnomer.
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420. At 7:23pm on 01 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Macedonia Nut;
I don't think you know much about America or Americans. We're all Red, White, and Blue."
I think you know even less, Yankee Doodle. Most Americans (inhabitants of the Americas, that is) are not citizens of the United States.
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417. At 7:10pm on 01 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Ask any reputable Peruvian (which of course means a Peruvian) anthropologist."
I'm afraid I don't know any reputable Peruvian anthropologists. Seeing as you know them so well, do you think you could refer me to any by name?
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"You don't seem to get it. I saw it for myself first hand when I lived there." (followed by numerous alleged "first-hand" European experiences).
Well, MarcusAureliusII, the thing is I DO get it. I get your claims. They would make for interesting (and indeed disturbing) reading, if proven correct. But your claims are just claims. At this point, you are just blowing a bunch of hot air, to be blunt. You did not answer my question. How would I fact-check your claims about Europe.
For instance, what kind of evidence would support your claim that Turkish people in Germany do not bother going to the police if and when something bad happens to them. What kind of evidence supports your previous claim about "no laws/nothing done against ethnic discrimination in Europe"?
What runs against your claim are numerous European codes of law. For instance, the German constitution itself forbids any form of discrimination. What stands against this evidence is your questionable claims about first-hand experiences.
I can talk about first-hand experience, too. Without any evidence to support it. Watch me do it:
"Americans eat they own children. That's right, I saw it with my own eyes! They get their wives pregnant so they can roast their babies for Thanksgiving!"
You see? Constantly claiming that Europeans do this and Europeans are like that and never being able to figure out how to support those claims isn't very credible. You can throw all manner of B.S. out there and say "I saw it with my own eyes". But people just see it for the hogwash that it is.
I gave you numbers that can be verified (or indeed falsified if you're feeling lucky) - in a rebuttal to your claim that the US is "socially more evolved" than Europe I showed you that the US prison population is nearly ten times higher. There are more murders, indeed more racially motivated murders. You have not been able to come up with anything in response other than your (probably bogus) "first-hand" experiences.
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385. At 1:10pm on 31 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
powermeerkat;
"how can Messr. Medvedev and Putin hope to link Russia's citizens via Internet?"
Russia remains a primitive place even by European standards.
If you've followed the news there, you will see it was not necessary to nuke Russia to wipe it out. Global warming is proving just as effective. The best way to attack Russia (and China and India) is to go out and buy an SUV and drive it around the US. EU leaders are driving theirs all over Europe (While they preach their hypocricy about CO2 emissions, energy conservation, and climate change to their hapless gullable subjects.)
+++++++++++
blah, blah, blah.... we'll still destroy 'Merica at the time of our choosing (but only if we really have to).
Behave, MarkusOralius.
Cheers.
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Cameron doesn't count. His party, because of him and his political correctness didn't win an election which they should have won by a mile.
Europe doesn't need any more Muslins, especially the Islamic party which is the government in Turkey. France, Italy and especially Germany will see to it that it doesn't happen. And it won't. Because Islam is incompatible with European culture.
A relatively more important question is whether Cameron will last a year.
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#418 - powermeerkat
The FYROM, as we all know, is only called that because the Greeks have a huge psychological problem with it being called Macedonia. So far, I have been pretty pro the Greeks but, on this issue, they are being down right petty and it is high they started to address their own problems
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CC;
"Well, MarcusAureliusII, the thing is I DO get it. I get your claims. They would make for interesting (and indeed disturbing) reading, if proven correct. But your claims are just claims. At this point, you are just blowing a bunch of hot air, to be blunt. You did not answer my question. How would I fact-check your claims about Europe."
Why don't you research it for yourself. Dress up like the stereotype of a Gypsy and try to apply for a job. See a real estate agent in that garb and ask to be shown homes in very expensive and exclusive neighborhoods. Post a technically impressive resume (CV) on line with your first name listed as Mohammed and see how many employers or agencies contact you about job opportunities. I'll bet you would be treated very differently than you are accostomed to. The kind of discrimination I'm referring to hasn't been documented. There are no real minority rights organizations in Europe making a concerted effort to expose and change things. There is nothing comparable to the civil rights movement that helped America change. Europe doesn't want to change. Europe will never change in that respect. Europe will only change its ruinous financial ways now that its credit is cut off.
Now that Europeans can't leech off of others, they will leech off of each other. That's what Germany's bail out of Greece is about. You have to wonder how long it will go on before the Germans have had enough and tell the EU and the Euro to go to hell.
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#426 - giltedged
I presume we can take it then that you are white Anglo-Saxon able-bodied Telegraph scanner (reader would be pushing it) who regards anyone who is not as inferior?
Or perhaps you are a prize bigot?
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#427 - threnodio
High time - sorry.
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427. At 9:42pm on 01 Aug 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
"The FYROM, as we all know, is only called that because the Greeks have a huge psychological problem with it being called Macedonia. So far, I have been pretty pro the Greeks but, on this issue, they are being down right petty and it is high they started to address their own problems"
The FYROM, as we all know, has a huge psychological problem with being called anything but "Macedonia". Greece has for years called for a compromise name that acknowledges the existence of an older, larger Macedonia, but Skopje refuses to budge. If that's not downright petty, what is it?
In any case, it is a matter of principle. Even if our history, cultural heritage and territorial integrity are of no importance to anyone else, they still matter to us. C'est la vie.
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#428 - MarcusAureliusII
"Dress up like the stereotype of a Gypsy and try to apply for a job. See a real estate agent in that garb and ask to be shown homes in very expensive and exclusive neighborhoods".
Truly pathetic!
Not only would the behaviour you describe be illegal in most EU countries but actionable in the European court for all citizens of the EU. Anyway, what makes you think that a bunch of third world weidos like 'Europeans' have 'expensive and exclusive neighboUrhoods'. I thoght they onl had those in New Jersey.
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#431 - MACEDNVS
Right. So let's call it North Macedonia shall we? A bit like North Cyprus, North Korea or - what about North Britain (Scotland to you).
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MarcusAureliusII,
there are Muslims, Sinti and Roma in high positions all over Europe. Many of them become politicians, teachers, barristers, doctors. What is your point?
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433. At 10:17pm on 01 Aug 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
"Right. So let's call it North Macedonia shall we? A bit like North Cyprus, North Korea or - what about North Britain (Scotland to you)."
Why not? That is the name Athens is said to favour, but the Gruevski régime across the border remains vehemently opposed. Our Slavic friends would much rather rename their airports, highways and football stadia after ancient Greek kings.
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#434 - Chris Camp
His point Chris is that it makes no difference whether you are Roma, Jewish, Muslim, one-legged, gay, or downright mad.
If you are European, you are inferior. Full stop (Period to you, Marcus).
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#435 - MACEDNVS
So would it be so outrageous for you to call your bit South Macedonia?
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". . . after ancient Greek kings . ."
The modern one having been dumped unceremoniously on the scrap heap of history by a bunch of generals.
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437. At 10:54pm on 01 Aug 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
"So would it be so outrageous for you to call your bit South Macedonia?"
Perhaps not, if it weren't already called West, Central and East Macedonia (and Thrace). But that still wouldn't satisfy the nationalists in power in Skopje, who prefer "Greek-occupied Aegean Macedonia". Given that "our bit" is not a sovereign state in its own right but merely part of one, it actually doesn't need to have a name at all. An independent country, on the other hand...
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438. At 11:14pm on 01 Aug 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
"The modern one having been dumped unceremoniously on the scrap heap of history by a bunch of generals."
I think you'll find he also lost a plebiscite by a fairly hefty margin, and that it was in fact a bunch of colonels.
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There is a few issues I want to bring forward here. First of all everyone talks about turkey is not being European. Can someone please tell me the differences and similiarities between Romanaians and Swedes or Finns and Portugese or Bulgarians and Britons. Are the similiarities more than the similarities between Turks and any european nation? argueable... Can someone actually describe what is European? is there a political definition or a geographical definition? and basing on that can someone please describe what is European Union? If it's all about Christianity then can Turkey really be blamed for moving towards a religios alliance with the other muslim countries ( I believe this is a completely wrong analysis anyways. Just because you dont want war in your doorstep and trying to find a peaceful alternative you should not be blamed for moving away from secularism or anything to do with hostility or extremism)
Secondly I am a Turkish citizen living in England and I cant even remember the number of people I met who were solidly against Turkeys membership but couldnt point it on the map. There is nothing wrong with being against its membership but there is a big problem when you dont even know anything about something that you are against. Not very "European"
European Union structurally is not a federation like the USA. It is a confederation which so far only completed its economic integration, There is hardly a oneness when it comes to political or social issues.(Simple example: Major differences between the views of the major powers within the union concerning the membership of a candidate country) So I can't see any bening intentions behind religion getting involved in a process which is only about an economic co-operation and integration.
I have huge respect for people who are honest about this issue. People who are against Turkey's membership because they dont like Turks.or some other genuine reason. But people who talk about "Kurdistan issue" without even having a slight idea about the issue or people who think a muslim in Iran is as same as a muslim in Turkey. One must have some knowledge, reliable knowledge, before having such strong arguements about something. If I talk about computer engineering I always start my sentence with "as far as I know" because I don't know much about it. So it would be much more "European" to do some research and learn about an issue that you want to talk about. Or be a bit less sure about what you say. I have read most of the comments and saw loads of misinformation used and people with lack of knowledge about certain issues unfortunately.
Maybe Turkey shouldnt be in EU but when I hear stuff like "Turkey shouldnt be in the union because of the illegal occupation of Kurdistan" all I can do is just ignore.
When it comes to Cameron's speech in Turkey, as a person who follows the Turkish news websites on a daily basis, I can easily say it has never been the big news on the day or afterwards. Maybe for a couple of hours it stayed on front pages then it was downgraded. So there is definitely a mistrust and tiredness of hearing the same things over and over again from the Turkish side.
To conclude, Europe should stop being hypocrytical as it is not really "European". maybe it is and I am wrong.
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threnodious, dressing up as a gypsy if you're not one is a crime in Europe? The EUSSR has become completely despotic even faster than I'd imagined. I think you're just worried you might be harrassed by the police, arrested for no reason at all. And with good reason. We know what they do with troublemakers who try stunts like that there. Who knows, you might wind up a ward of Budapest School District #8...where you'd get more of an education than you'd bargained for.
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It just struck me that perhaps the British Tory ploy is to get Turkey into the EU and the UK out by exchange.
The population of the UK is expected to reach that of Turkey by 2025 so it will be a straight swop. Most populated EU Nation for 2025 replaced with a new member with the largest population currently.
I think the EUrocrats were onto something with this qualified majority voting weighted by population density ... you can find alternates to take your place in Europe and the carousel of the EU just keeps turning without a pause.
Personally, I think Turkey makes and excellent candidate nation to replace the UK as one of the complaints about Turkey's application to achieve EU membership is lack of democracy in Turkey.
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441. At 01:59am on 02 Aug 2010, aglr wrote:
"If it's all about Christianity then can Turkey really be blamed for moving towards a religios alliance with the other muslim countries ( I believe this is a completely wrong analysis anyways. Just because you dont want war in your doorstep and trying to find a peaceful alternative you should not be blamed for moving away from secularism or anything to do with hostility or extremism)"
It's less about Christianity than it is about Islam and how compatible its values are with Europe. Given that Islam is "not just a religion but a way of life", as its adherents keep telling us, it is a legitimate question to ask. Turkey's secular establishment, imposed and sustained by military force, is looking increasingly fragile. Does a country which aspires to lead the Islamic Ummah, as in the days of the Ottoman Caliphate, really belong in Europe?
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To yet another Greek jingoist:
"The M in FYROM is a misnomer."
No, the FYROM is a misnomer for a Republic of Macedonia.
BTW. Last time I was in Bulgaria they were still selling Macedonian kebab, not FYROM kebab.
[kebab being of course a Greek ethnic dish (particularly Adana kebab)]
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"Personally, I think Turkey makes and excellent candidate nation to replace the UK as one of the complaints about Turkey's application to achieve EU membership is lack of democracy in Turkey."
Menedemus, let me know if there ever is a date certain for an election of European Commi-ssars.
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Asia Minor and Greece may contain two Macedonias but Britain can now lay claim to a Macaroonia. Or should I more properly say Macarooniac.
Congratulations are in order. The Macaroon got through the rest of the week without alienating any more countries. However, this is a new week with a whole world of opportunities still out there. Who's next, Argentina? Tristan da Chuna? The penguins at the South Pole? Where's the Cleggo bloc in all this anyway?
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Re: #419 powermeerkat - about Internet speed
You are right - unfortunately quite a few Internet providers advertise high speeds that they fail to deliver in real life. I guess you have to read the small print of ads carefully; there's usually some cathch, such as "UP TO...X Mbits speed", the UP TO part meaning that thay are free to deliver lower speeds most of the time. As far as my provider, I havent actually TESTED the speed with independent software, to my experience and observations generally suggest it is reasonably close to the one advertised, so I dont't complain. I live in Sofia, and the prices/speeds offered there are the as a rule among best (because of competition) as compared to the rest of the country, where the number of providers is more limited. You can, however, get similar prices in most larger cities.
Re #324 - powermeerkat and the ethnic origins of ancient Bulgars :-)
I am still not quite sure what was your point. Perhaps you meant the well-established and documented historical fact that the ancient Bulgars were ethnically Oghur Turkic. This is undoubtedly true, not only for the numerous Bulgar tirbes (also often referred to as Hunno-Bulgars, or simply Huns, in various Byzantine and Western sources), but also for the Avars and Hazars, to which they were ethnically related. On the whole, Oghur Turkic tribes/peoples were very active in Europe, from the mid-4th century AD onwards, starting with tha Hunnic tribal confederation. During 5-9 AD centuries Oghurs established several khanates If that was what you meant - no problem with that whatsoever. That's not news in any way;it has never been a secret for anyone in Bulgaria. ETHNICITY IN ITSELF is neither a blessing, nor a curse, it cannot be considered a disgrace, or a source of special pride. Sure, one can be proud, or ashamed of one's NATION's achievements and failures; the same should not apply for ETHNICITY, that would be plain racist, and stupid. Having Germanic, Slavic, Turkic, African, Semitic, Tungusic, Celtic, etc. ethnic origin means very little in itself, especially nowadays - all humans demonstrably originated from a single group in Africa :-). On a genetic level, the differences between someone from Afica and an Inuit in Alaska is minute, almost nonexistant.
The modern Bulgarian nation is a VERY complex mix of a long list of peoples, of various origins - namely Bulgars, various Slavic tribes, Thracians; but also Kumans, Pechenegs, Uz (all Oghuz Turkic) and the remnants of several obscure Alanic, Celtic, Illyrian and Gothic tribes. The list is certainly not exhaustive and historians still argue as to the "percentige contribution" of each in the total mix.
Anyway, I never meant that any ethnicity, or nation is/was superior/inferior to any other. Best regards!
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445. At 10:34am on 02 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"To yet another Greek jingoist:
No, the FYROM is a misnomer for a Republic of Macedonia."
No, it is the only legally established provisional reference for a country whose name is a matter of international dispute. Your puerile insults cannot and will not change that fact.
"BTW. Last time I was in Bulgaria they were still selling Macedonian kebab, not FYROM kebab."
How ignorant can you be? When Bulgarians use the term "Macedonian", they clearly mean it in a regional rather than an ethnic sense, given that they do not recognize a "Macedonian" nation distinct from the Bulgarian. You patently lack the intellectual capacity for such complexity.
"[kebab being of course a Greek ethnic dish (particularly Adana kebab)]"
Kebab, souvlaki, or whatever you want to call it has actually been a Greek ethnic dish since antiquity. Adana belonged to the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia as recently as the fourteenth century, so I would suggest an Armenian origin for your Adana kebab. The word "kebab" itself is, of course, of Persian origin. The fact that the Turks co-opted it and countless other dishes upon their subsequent arrival in the region is irrelevant, unless of course you actually believe that the Greeks, Armenians, Persians, Arabs and others were taught how to eat by a ragtag horde of itinerant Central Asian tribes.
Anything else?
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There is a misunderstanding abaout Turkey among European countries. There is a fact that Turkey was secular in the past and ıt is secular now and will be in the future. Noone , nothing or no party can change this reality. I wanna say something about EU that European countries don't wanna let Turkey become more powerful or more modern or more happy. I don't believe the honesty EU...
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Outside of the macadamias themselves, why would anyone care what they call themselves or each other. The fact that they would go to war over a name just proves how nuts they are. California Champagne anyone?
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451. At 2:03pm on 02 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Outside of the macadamias themselves, why would anyone care what they call themselves or each other. The fact that they would go to war over a name just proves how nuts they are. California Champagne anyone?"
When has there ever been the remotest suggestion that they were preparing for war?
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Re: #445,#449
The terms "Macedonian", "Thracian", "Moesian", "Shop", etc. are ALWAYS and ONLY used by Bulgarians as regional, geographical qualifications, roughly meaning "something originating from/in the style of the GEOGRAPHICAL REGION of...". Just as "Thracian salad", "Moesian folk music", etc.- there are countless examples for that. No Bulgarian in his/her right mind recognizes (or will EVER accept) Macedonian, Thracian, or Moesian nations as currently existing entities. All these terms have lost any "national" centuries, if not millenia ago, during the late antiquity. Even then, strictly speaking, these were terms denoting tribal and ehtnic affiliation, not nationalities, or nations in the modern understanding of the word...
Any claim that a "Macedonian" nation existed before 1944 is, francly absurd and insupportable. The curious fact that the population of FYROM at present mostly supports the rather ridiculous\ludicrous idea of being "Macedonian", (in the sense of ancestors of ancient Macedonia), is the direct result from several decades of massive brainwashing by Tito Yugoslav propaganda and the playful, fanciful, creative imaginations of the leaders of the regime, currently in power in Skopje.
As regards "kebab", and "Adana kebab" in particular - in my humble opinion, no matter how you call it, grilled meat on a stick is probably the first dish stoneage HUMANS ever invented, long, long ago in sunny Africa...:-):-), it's not even worth it arguing about THAT...
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There are some fair solutions to Turkey's candidate that will please all British "nun educated" folks...
1)UK goes out and leave his place to Turkey with all his recent EU rights (number of EU parliamentarians, no Schengen, no Euro etc.)
Otherwise
2)Cameron must make an impassioned pitch for Turkey to become part of the Commonwealth.
"I promise to remain Turkey's strongest advocate for Commonwealth membership...something I feel very passionately about". I'm here, to make the case for Turkey's membership of the Commonwealth. And to fight for it".
or
"i am not angry any more that Turkey's progress towards Commonwealth membership is finally a reality".
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433 threnodio
"...So let's call it North Macedonia shall we?..."
No we shall not. But they can be named "North of Macedonia".
You see...In your advanced peasant farming studies maybe that's possible:
The today transgenic and genetically modified historical propaganda
(fyromians are organisms modified in the political laboratory, due to their simple historical genetics) did infected you when you refer to history
when fyromians refer to you to history (always and only Greek writers and philosophers) it's like when a shepherd speak to you about Nasa spaceship matters and Schroedinger equations.
"...A bit like North Cyprus..."
If you refer to North as one of the four cardinal directions why not
"...what about North Britain (Scotland to you)..."
You speak as Scottish?
As for the other North or South terms (north korea, South Africa ecc.):
the first is imposed by political wars of the same people (that everybody wants the reunification) and the last peacefully by them and by a new nation with no other nearby countries be offended at their history like we do...and so on
Last but not least...for the fact if Fyromians are an ethic group or not it's a Fyromian internal affair and of course not our business and personally i don't care...as long as they don't try to steel my glorious Greek and only Greek Macedonian heritage.
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DLT.
My point was that ultimately we ALL have come from a region of present day Ethiopia and Kenya. (as DNA analysis irrefutably shows)
And that every nation can point to injustices being done to it in its past.
[Just like others can rightly point to injustices committed by us]
And my point is: than rather than concentrating on who did what to whom when (and more of) we should concentrate on the common future.
Some poster here posited that Turkey has about as much right to be in EU as Bulgaria and Romania, since they are both unqualified highly corrupted failures.
That might indeed be the case to a large extent.
But just as in case of Turks, it's hard to criticize whole populations for wrong policies of their past regimes.
[And objective geopolitical factors]
And I would not blame any present day "barbaric Mongol" [that's Turk in Nik the Greek's parlance) for Ottoman Empire's actions any more than I would blame any present day Bulgarian and Romanian for crimes committed by Zhivkov's and Ceausescu's regimes.
BTW. 'Collective responsibility' as a Bolshevik/Nazi concept.
And saying that "all Albanians, Bulgarians, French, Germans, Poles, Romanians, Russians are..." is simply a reflection of a sick jingoism.
I hope I cleared the air a bit.
all the best,
[stay cool. :)]
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threnodio_II wrote:
#418 - powermeerkat
"The FYROM, as we all know, is only called that because the Greeks have a huge psychological problem with it being called Macedonia. So far, I have been pretty pro the Greeks but, on this issue, they are being down right petty and it is high they started to address their own problems."
What can I say? You're right.
I think those posters who allegedly represent Greece here do a great disservice to their nation.
P.S. I watched F1 race at Hungaroring (on ESPN).
I thought that Vettel behaved like a spoiled kid.
And Schumacher?
Almost killing a fellow driver to get in 10th place? Pathetic. :(
P.P.S. If you ever need directions to Terry [Riley]'s farm (closer to Truckee than than to Yuba City) let me know. :)
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"The word "kebab" itself is, of course, of Persian origin. The fact that the Turks co-opted it and countless other dishes upon their subsequent arrival in the region is irrelevant, unless of course you actually believe that the Greeks, Armenians, Persians, Arabs and others were taught how to eat by a ragtag horde of itinerant Central Asian tribes."
I will leave this without a comment, just like a "Greek coffee", for it, sadly, confirms my earlier point.
Just as an issue of what Greeks, Armenians, Persians and Arabs amount to today.
Perhaps a HUNgarian or BULGARian poster would address the Central Asian "ragtag horde" remark.
Although I would advise them to simply flush it down.
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457 powermeerkat:
I think posters who allegedly represent Greece here do a great service to their nation.
...So proud to be one of them
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457. At 7:59pm on 02 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"I think those posters who allegedly represent Greece here do a great disservice to their nation."
Only if one assumes that the opinions expressed on an Internet forum bear any weight on international diplomacy. Hate to burst your bubble, but they don't. You're not that important.
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428 Homer writes re discrimination and racism in Europe as opposed to the good ol' US of A:
"There is nothing comparable to the civil rights movement that helped America change. Europe doesn't want to change. Europe will never change in that respect. Europe will only change its ruinous financial ways now that its credit is cut off."
From the Mail on Sunday yesterday:
The American Jeff Dunham was the highest-grossing stand-up act in the US last year, and his 'Achmed the Dead Terrorist' puppet has racked up more than 350 million hits on YouTube.
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458. At 8:12pm on 02 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"I will leave this without a comment, just like a "Greek coffee", for it, sadly, confirms my earlier point."
And what would that be?
"And saying that "all Albanians, Bulgarians, French, Germans, Poles, Romanians, Russians are..." is simply a reflection of a sick jingoism."
Followed soon after by:
"Just as an issue of what Greeks, Armenians, Persians and Arabs amount to today."
And what would that be?
You'll have to help us out here, because your self-evident truths seem to be evident to no one but yourself.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Pubescent Peggy;
"From the Mail on Sunday yesterday:
The American Jeff Dunham was the highest-grossing stand-up act in the US last year, and his 'Achmed the Dead Terrorist' puppet has racked up more than 350 million hits on YouTube."
Now it's three hundred fifty million and one :-)
BTW, how many times did you see it?
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Pubescent Peggy, at the risk of pointing out the obvious.....America's Got Talent! Hahahahahaha.
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Firstly, David Cameron has not been in the hot seat long enough; by this I mean Prime minister. The man is on a high visiting countries, some for the first time in his life. It is alikened to a boy who gets to perform on stage, in front of his parents for the first time at the school play. No, there is no experience here! You should only read this article to understand this as a foolish starting point for someone who is only eager to maybe be a part of the history books; at the detriment of millions.
Turkey is a beautiful place, with fascinating artefacts and a somewhat rich history but this does not constitute it as a candidate for the EU, nor does a working economy, agriculture or a stable crime rate. Bringing this part of the world to Europe will for sure be treacherous, and with no return! No longer is it Europe; that in its self is enough said. All over life will not do well because much more so in the east church (mosque) and state are not first seen seperately. A mosque or a muslim is seen as the way forward for muslim society.
Friends but not brothers. Working with Turkey as Turkey has with the EU.
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What really makes me angry is nobody, including politicians in Ankara, seems to be interested in what people of Turkey think about the whole EU membership. I am totally against this idea of Turkish EU membership. Not only I am going to vote against it in any vote that comes to me, but I will also actively campaign for a no vote!! Turkey has nothing to gain, and everything to lose by an EU membership. It is enough that we carried the burden of defence for Europe for the past fifty odd years by devoting in excess of 50% of our GDP to defence!! It is high time Europe learns to take on its own defense responsibilities. From now on Turkey should devote all its resources on her own people. Not one single Lira is to be spent on European defense!!
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@467
Just as well then, because we Greeks have had a gutful of your "defence" of our borders all these years…
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"Hate to burst your bubble, but they don't. You're not that important."
Are you, Macedeus referring, to the great Greek Nation?
The one über alles? [Especially them 'Mongol itinerant barbarians']
Don't worry, superiority complexes of the affected (usually based on suppressed inferiority ones) can be cured by their therapists pointing out their real life, tangible shortcomings.
Now about those foreign tourists' comments about Greece and Greeks...
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Sorry to bother everybody...
Does anyone here know what's a "sof recce" or a "lndspp mcm"?
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Let me guess
"sof recce" = Software Reconnaissance (insight into how a program works)
"sof recce" = Special Operations Forces Reconnaissance (units of highly trained military personnel who avoid combat with, and detection by, the enemy)
lndspp mcm = Low-Noise Band or Local Number Dialing standard parallel port Multi-Carrier Modulation (scheme in which many parallel data streams are transmitted at the same time over a channel with each transmitting only a small part of the total data rate).
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469. At 1:58pm on 03 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Are you, Macedeus referring, to the great Greek Nation?"
No, I'm not. Are you able to read English?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
PM: Are you, Macedeus referring, to the great Greek Nation?"
M: No, I'm not. Are you able to read English?
PM: It's all Greek to me. :)
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474. At 8:58pm on 03 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"M: No, I'm not. Are you able to read English?
PM: It's all Greek to me."
Clearly.
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470 revipm
"lndspp mcm" = Land, self-propelled with mine counter-measures (The capability of a device to move over land under its own power with mine counter-measures)
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generalissimo @355
"Do not put on the same bench a muslim with an orthodox. It won't work"
generalissimo I'm afraid we are less principled than you are :o(
well, you know that we are less principled :o(
you can't have a big country and be choosy :o); the imperfection of this world is they don't make enough alike people! :o)))) to inhabit one Russia
:o))))))))
and when it comes to the choice...
I can't imagine a happy Russian in a small stuffy place
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powermeer @456
And saying that "all Albanians, Bulgarians, French, Germans, Poles, Romanians, Russians are..." is simply a reflection of a sick jingoism.
I hope I cleared the air a bit.
all the best
____
???
powermeer got ill :o(
what a summer!
even the best of us ! :o))))
I mean, a friendly powermeer ?
well I don't know
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Re #478
Well, Alice, if you read my earlier posts carefully you wouldn't be surprised.
I can hate a system, an ideology, a mentality, an imperial policy...
Never PEOPLES.
But if you think it's Russian heat and fires spreading around the world
which has made me mellow let me tell ya:
its' always strong trade winds where I spend most of my time.
[no, it's not in Bering Strait. Though I can still see your lovely country quite sharply.
Yuri Dolgoruky you might call me :)]
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lovely country
oj
like I said
powermeer of course the news, that you are a desert animal :o) instill some confidence in me that you shall survive this say peculiar summer
but still, you know - with Jolly Roger (the dog) the other week it helped when you dip hands into cold water and then grasp his ears at the ? base? ? :o)))) by cold fingers and hold
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Yes I am.
Btw. according to all reputable sources, and even Wiki, "meerkats can attack animals many more times their size, including pythons and cobras."
and "they are the only mammals known to attack without absolutely no warning signs".
That's Alice, why I'm confident meerkats will survive.
[and now it's time to drive to a marina and heave away, haul away. :)]
P.S. I do hope Mr. Putin and his 'siloviki' will finally manage to extinguish those fires.
[Human life loss is never fun. Be that Russia or be that Pakistan. :(]
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For my friend, a Bulgarian, Żubrovka drunken sailor.
[nope, it was not recorded in Varna :)]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCJXTrT4fFA&feature=related
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479 pussyKat
I can hate a system, an ideology, a mentality, an imperial policy...
Never PEOPLES.
So! Who is behind a a system, an ideology, a mentality, an imperial policy?
Martians?
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PM: "Just as an issue of what Greeks, Armenians, Persians and Arabs amount to today."
A Macedonian kebab: And what would that be?
You'll have to help us out here, because your self-evident truths seem to be evident to no one but yourself."
Barely mitigated disasters?
Just like your friends - Iranian kebabs?
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Re 483
Will the author of a comment adressed to a pussykat, direct it to a proper poster before he follows in footsteps of Nik the Greek?
[unfortunately no longer with us. RIP.]
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"no longer".
peculiar
Did you drive him away
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powermeer I hope you haven't referred to admin handles
and "absence" of Nik is explained by you simply winning over him, in the open field, with an open how that metal face thing is called
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485 powderkat:
"Will the author of a comment direct it to a proper poster before he follows in footsteps of Nik the Greek?..."
LOL This is Sparta...!!!
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Talking about Free Speech & Where does Turkey's future lie?
Eurabia's War on Free Speech - Criminalizing Criticism of Islam
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Re# 488
"LOL this is Sparta."
Indeeed LOL. Where is Sparta?
I've just looked at my charts:
Th only thing in a vicinity I could find was FYROM. [ROTFL]
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Alice in Wonderland wonders:
"Did you drive him [Nik the Greek] away?"
Nope. Although a volatile demagogue and a chauvinist Nik was actually much nicer to me, and more respectful, than some other posters.
Who are STILL with us. :)
Plus: Nik supplied a badly needed element of comic relief in this blog.
Just like 'colonelartist' (unfortunately no longer with us as well) in
Mark Mardell's North America blog.
I sincerely miss both of them. :(
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Alice:
"and "absence" of Nik is explained by you simply winning over him, in the open field, with an open how that metal face thing is called"
"Bulava"? [nope, doesn't sound right]
A facelift, perhaps? [nope, it's not metal.] Let me think a bit... :)
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Hi WebAlice,
I'm back and I'm sorry about your forrest and wild fires. I hope your nation doesn't suffer too much...they had an article about lost wheat crop.
But, on BBC, I did find out that a Siberian city named A..... something is a new high technology center :)
I was not able to comment...I thought I was banned, but it may have been a website compatibility problem...
You know, I'm sooo bad, but no one else gets banned so I was a little angry, but was so addicted to reading this blog :)
BTW, are you and Margaret Howard the only women posting comments on this blog? All I can say is REMEMBER...
Men have problems saying the words .."I apologize" or "I am/was wrong."
I'm male (lol) and I know what we are like...though, I say it--the above--and its easy to say ...hmmmm
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Oh he's there, PM,... ColonelArtiste, the last time I checked that blog.
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"Saying that 'all Albanians, Bulgarians, French, Germans, Poles, Romanians, Russians are...' is simply a reflection of a sick jingoism."
"Greeks, Armenians, Persians and Arabs amount to... barely mitigated disasters."
Someone's a sick jingoist.
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I think Web Alice is saying Nick was mistreated many many times (he was called the "Mad Greek" by people ..as if that was ...polite? That was very impolite.)
And the mask she is talking about sounds like those old Greek masks OR
she was saying like Hannibal Lector you bound his face OR he lost face.
(humiliation by constant abuse) He had valid ideas to be considered and many people would dismiss him by calling him various names and he was
Very Intelligent. I didn't agree with half of what he said, but it was new and interesting, to me, just the same.
Anyway...ooops dont mean to get into the middle of something that I know nothing of..
But, I, too, thought people mistreated Nick, he was composing his views with.... respect, which was nice, RESPECTING others while doing it.
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DAVID IS IT YOU BACK?!
:o)))))))))))))
How did you dare to get lost! And leave me here all alone o)))))))))
I was awful worried for you, and thought of you many a lonely night :o))
blamed myself that I left you without warning
and what has happened to you
what's with this and that
don't even think of disappearing again
and go to that International Chatter damn silly Pavillion, break through Russian at least once - to leave a normal address
I was about to write to 5 various Stevensons in 1 American state, by mail, to check if any of them are you! only my disembarkation to dacha saved you from all of them writing to you what they think of men leaving Russian girlfriends someplace in internet waves!
David
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Now that David is found. where's Nik?
powermeer you are still under suspicion. what if you are friendly because you have simply breakfasted well! :o)))))
I will stay without admirers this way in no time at all.
How do you know No longer with us , then - if you haven't done something?
The metal thing no, no facelift :o)))) but what knights wear in the Hermitage knights' Hall, the ones sitting on stuffed brown horses.
Clang - it falls down over one's face
Bang - it can be lifted up
Is it a face-lift then indeed?
Niki darling where are you!
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David I am booked for 39 Celcius this Sunday :o))))))) acc to BBC Weather
Me, in the 60th practically parallel or how it is called :o))
The lines that London has 45th, same as with Sochi sub-tropics
Meteo-mum explained something un-well with the Sun (in general)
And in particular - is that an area of high pressure is stuck over Arctics, and blocks traffic, because "in the South it's warm, in Europe warm, over Arctic - an anti-cyclone - where would Russia get cold if not from Arctic and there is none :o)))
So unless someone opens a window on Arctic it is hopeless
In the International Chatter etc all reports are nasty +40 here +40 there
"Povolzhje"/Volga region simply cracked like a desert
They've got cracks open in the ground and don't believe their eyes
All trees as they say in dacha orchards "burned up"
Yes wheat went up here the prices so far a little state reserves will be thrown in to hold the increase in place
the prices for bread are expected to be up anyway though, simply on rumours and expectationsd though the yild itself or how it is called didn't suffer much
I am managing in the dacha - the well known the wettest place on Earth :o) which proved good (for the first time in 130 years)
I think I've got the only pond in Russia currently that still didn't dry up :o) And there still isn't a place in the dacha where I can sit on the ground and not stand up with a wet eh rear end:o)
And certainly the last frogs in Russia are hopping over in my dacha only :o)
What's normally a plague and swamp now came handy
In Moscow burn those? like ground burns but it is not earth but old dried up ancient weeds? in thick piles in the ground
old ancient marches marshes? that got dried up some thousand years ago?
these are nearly impossible to extinguish as it is not forest - it is ground smoking and underground in crawls, inside the layers
Moscow became a very smoky place
Where whole villages burn in Russia - it is from upper forest fires, when fire jumps along tree tops quick travel mode of forest ires
People say the landscape is same is as second world war - only brick tubes stand up instead of villages which brings up bad memories we kind of get nervous seeing tubes only left of villages
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498 WebAlice writes:
"The metal thing no, no facelift :o)))) but what knights wear in the Hermitage knights' Hall, the ones sitting on stuffed brown horses.
Clang - it falls down over one's face
Bang - it can be lifted up
Is it a face-lift then indeed?"
Do you mean a visor?
(Glad to have you both back)
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