Europe's dog days
Europe's dog days are here. Not those sultry, cloying, enervating weeks of the Washington summer. Not the oppressive stillness. But the sparseness of Brussels's streets, the absence of traffic, the empty tables where only weeks ago they doled out moules at 25 euros a throw. There is that feeling of somehow being left behind. Most of the Eurocrats have caught the fast train to the coast.
By reputation the dog days bring no joy; they come with a bad rap. These were the times "when the seas boiled, wine turned sour, dogs grew mad, and all creatures became languid".
So far the wine seems to be holding up, but these are certainly weeks of languor, a dreamy, lazy time-out. And Europe's elite are gliding off to their gites, villas and palazzi in surprisingly good spirits.
The worst didn't happen. The euro has not only survived - it is at a perky 11-week high. The European project which wobbled for awhile has settled back again, weakened surely, but out of danger. There are green shoots everywhere.
Business confidence in places like Portugal is at its highest since 2008. In Italy sentiment is at its peak for two years. The German economy is booming. The costs of insuring against countries defaulting (the much-accused credit default swaps) are at a two-month low. The bond spreads are tightening and the cost of borrowing for hard-up governments is falling. Growth forecasts are being rounded up. It may reach 1.5% by the last quarter. The talk of a double-dip recession is fading.
The European good life under a Tuscan sun can be resumed. There is a quiet satisfaction abroad. Earlier in the year the President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, had railed against the intellectual glamour of pessimism. The French Prime Minister Francois Fillon said only last week that "we must not underestimate the climate of scepticism surrounding the EU, which could be fateful for it".
Some say that in the past few weeks Europe has started defying its critics. Others are counselling "not so fast".
The New York Times in an editorial this week was among the unconvinced. "In just a few months, " its editorial opined, "Europe's leaders have gone from panic to complacency about the future of the euro". "Today's complacency," it went on, "is so dangerous since none of the euro's basic problems... have been addressed".
Economic growth has reappeared, but it is uneven. Germany is pulling away; its unemployment is the lowest since November 2008. The words "economic miracle" have reappeared. Meanwhile in Greece growth and consumer confidence are flat and the economy only splutters in Spain.
The differences between Germany and some of the other euro countries are widening, not narrowing.
Then there is austerity. Much of it has still to kick in. In Italy MPs have only just approved their austerity package. Elsewhere it has yet to bite. There is wide disagreement as to its impact. Some believe the spending cuts will choke the recovery just as its starting. Others believe that confidence will only return when the deficits are reined in.
The crisis in the eurozone has raised again the question of how countries that are so different can inhabit the same monetary union. International bodies, like the IMF, have insisted that countries like Greece and Spain have to become competitive. This will not only mean wage cuts but "structural reforms" - making it easier to hire and fire for instance. In Greece they are trying to open up road freight to competition. The result is that Athens is running out of fuel as the fuel delivery drivers strike.
We do not know how Europe's workers will take to "structural reforms". Neither do we know how Europe's public sector workers will react to change. In France, which has hardly begun an austerity programme, there is widespread resistance to raising the pension age. The autumn will see public sector workers returning - and in what mood it is hard to predict.
Outsiders still see the heart of Europe's crisis as that it cannot sustain its comfortable way of life.
My eye was drawn to some analysis in the China Daily. "It was not widely known until now," the article read, "that the average wage of workers at the government-owned railway company in Greece was $75,000 a year. Some train drivers were paid as much as $130,000. That's about 10 times the average salary of the highly qualified ...train drivers in Hong Kong."
Now I've no idea whether these figures are true, and it is necessary to point out that China's workers have increasingly been complaining about their own working conditions, but the perception remains that Europe has been living beyond its means. Social programmes will be cut back. Countless painful questions will have to be asked. For instance, can it be sustained that staff in Belgium are paid travelling-to-work expenses?
When Europe's leaders return from their holidays they will immerse themselves in trying to prevent the eurozone crisis occurring again. Budgets and spending plans will be monitored. Those who break the euro's spending rules will be disciplined. Will that be enough to ensure the survival of the single currency, or will there be a push for fiscal union? And if so, what strain will that put on already frosty relationships?
Others see Europe's growth spurt dying away towards the end of the year. Gilles Moec of Deutsche Bank says "there's no big change in terms of the underlying macro picture; we're in for slow growth."
Slow growth will pose a huge challenge. Most observers accept that Europe cannot sustain its way of life with growth under 2%.
Two final thoughts. One of the stories of this crisis has been its unpredictability. All of us, officials, observers, politicians have reacted to events. We have been unable to see the twists and turns and the autumn looks no easier to predict.
The debate so far has been about crisis management. Considering the fundamental questions that are being asked, there has been relatively little soul-searching about whether the EU is on the right road, how it prospers in a world where power is moving to the nimble and politically ambitious countries like Turkey, Brazil and India.
On that note I, too, will join the ranks of the languid for a couple of weeks and head to Europe's hills. For those also finding ways to escape, bonnes vacances and thank you for taking part in this conversation.
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Do you think China, America, Japan, India, or any other of the major industrial powers takes a month's vacation from business once a year? That's the European lifestyle that can't be sustained. The rest of the world is working while Europe sleeps.
Enjoy your dreams while you still can Europe. This is the calm before the storm. When you wake up, your nightmare will be just beginning.
Complain about this comment
"One of the stories of this crisis has been its unpredictability. All of us, officials, observers, politicians have reacted to events. We have been unable to see the twists and turns and the autumn looks no easier to predict."
Surely this was the biggest story of the year so far?
I mean, you can only imagine our shock. "Officials, observers, politicians" being unable to predict the future! Who could have expected that? It is enough to make a person question the next rising of the sun.
In all seriousness, it is worth noting just how conceited Hewitt is. He honestly thinks he's wise, and entitled to expect that he will understand the world.
The idea that he is just someone who works for a government run newspaper has probably never crossed his mind.
Complain about this comment
Marcus, isn't it a bit tiring to keep on repeating the same mantra over and over again? Were you, by any chance, once a part of the Hara-Krishna crowd?
On a different note, Gavin, have you befriended anybody whilst here in Brussels that isn't in some part tied to an ex-pat community? Just wondering ... I can tell you that I see plenty of traffic every day and quite a few places are still 'packed'. Sure, the European neighbourhood is quiet, but the busses for some reason, are still jam-packed at peak hours.
Complain about this comment
Having been so utterly wrong all along about this "crisis", Mr. Hewitt, you do need some time off to recover. Take your time, and enjoy the green hills of Europe.
Complain about this comment
So Marcus, care to guess again when the Euro will collapse?
Complain about this comment
@1 lol, Macro! Sticking a few more pins in your european voodoo doll, eh?
The real question in my mind is if the Greco-Turkish blog war will spill over onto this entry. Sometime over the next couple weeks-until Gavin's return-I bet it does. I suspect WWII will come up too.
Gavin: if you find yourself in Vienna's hills (specifically Doebling), by chance, follow the smell of the bbq. And bring some wine (red).
Complain about this comment
"""My eye was drawn to some analysis in the China Daily. "It was not widely known until now," the article read, "that the average wage of workers at the government-owned railway company in Greece was $75,000 a year. Some train drivers were paid as much as $130,000. That's about 10 times the average salary of the highly qualified ...train drivers in Hong Kong.""""
Aaaahhhh these Chinese... they are just being jealous and they are as well mad that Jeffey Papandreou did not give them the leasing of the ports as they wanted.
"""Now I've no idea whether these figures are true, and it is necessary to point out that China's workers have increasingly been complaining about their own working conditions, but the perception remains that Europe has been living beyond its means."""
Yes. It is true for specific train drivers or other civil servant only that there is a catch: these are not the train drivers that drive you around, nor the civil servants that serve you.
All these on these immense salaries are evidently not working in their positions and their majority they do not even appear on their service. They are fantom workers that appear only on the payrol. The Greek public tv has nearly 1000 people in that category. All of them are party people (70-80% from PASOK party as ND party was not that good at doing such) and they are enlisted in the payroll of these public companies gaining money for free. They are not working of course (most of them belong to some syndicalist group or directly are spending their time working for the parties' propaganda).
This phenomenon was extremely rare till the late 1970s, it became common place by early 1980s when PASOK took over. Well that is some US-imposed socialism baby! Papandreou speaking!
The 80% of Greeks hunt them for their head but we can't do anything since these people are well connected and you should not laugh when you hear stories of such "train drivers" being able to threaten even deputy ministers. It is a whole circle. I know in person a case where an honest director of a major Greek civil service nearly lost his position when he wanted to bring sanctions to a corrupted mid-low range civil servant of his service; the latter (he gained in black, more than the director) apparently had some strong connections that counterattacked even the opposite party in government. Another had his position taken by a younger, less experienced and badly noted civil servant but who was a party member. He went to justice to claim his position, he won, then the public service he worked did an appeal (!!!i.e. his superior appealed, i.e.... spending the state's time and money!!!), the judge turned red, got mad, started shouting and almost kicked the "public service" out, closing the case in favour of him. Outcome? He kept his position but they gave him no responsibilities, creating a new position for their protegé. Papandreou speaking! What Europe? US socialism baby I tell you!
Complain about this comment
6. At 7:41pm on 29 Jul 2010, DiscoStu_d wrote:
@1 lol, Macro! Sticking a few more pins in your european voodoo doll, eh?
"""The real question in my mind is if the Greco-Turkish blog war will spill over onto this entry."""
Of course! Why not? Don't you remember all those past blogs on Greece and the financial crisis where mean-happy Turks enterred to complain about Greek financial corruption as if them (non-EU people) were affected by it in anyway.
"""Sometime over the next couple weeks-until Gavin's return-I bet it does. I suspect WWII will come up too."""
No need for suspicion. You can rest assured! If we did not have WWII we would not have Jeffrey. Haha!
"""Gavin: if you find yourself in Vienna's hills (specifically Doebling), by chance, follow the smell of the bbq. And bring some wine (red)."""
Gavin don't listen to anyone: my advice: go Greece. No not to aid the local tourism and to spend your money - you can do camping and survive on water-melon and feta if you like. But to see that against all what is said, Greeks do not give a thing about what others say about their crisis and that they get on with their lifes happy as ever to enervate others who manage to be sad, depressive or aggressive even at times of financial booming. You can't be sad for long in a country like Greece....
... especially when you are a 130,000euros/yr train driver that has never enterred a train even as a passenger...
Complain about this comment
When and if someone can explain what a "growth spurt" is, I will be happy to resume normal service.
I will not even begin to explain what an "ex-sput" is.
Complain about this comment
My Dad got paid $100K or so as a railroader in Alaska, but that was for freight service, he worked 18-20 hour days, was on the road for 2-3 days at a time, and on his days off had the chance of being called in for more work.
In a little 7 mile wide place like Hong Kong we're probably talking subway operators doing normal work days. That hardly counts as trains. I doubt they start at more than $15 per hour anywhere and probably max out at $25/hr.
On the topic at hand though, I have learned over the past few years that newspeople, politicians, and stock markets all like drama. Today a crisis and we're all going to die, the next day salvation and the world will be filled with flowers, and then the day after we're back to apocalyptic scenarios. Then when it's all over nothing much really changed.
So we'll see.
Complain about this comment
@8 Nik wrote "....we would not have Jeffrey...."
As doubtless you know, he was born in St Paul, Minnesota (USA). His Dad was a professor at the local Uni. I live across the river in Minneapolis. I hope you harbor no hard feelings towards us. :)
Complain about this comment
Napthalene;
"Marcus, isn't it a bit tiring to keep on repeating the same mantra over and over again?"
I don't know. Why not ask the America bashers, they've had the most practice at it followed closely by the Israel bashers. You've got plenty to choose from posting comments on this blog alone.
Complain about this comment
Malefactor;
"So Marcus, care to guess again when the Euro will collapse?"
Probably within the next year or two. When there is a point in the crisis where even central banks propping it up they way they have recently won't work anymore. Could be when there is a government default or a major European bank goes under. I'll be here watching the fireworks from a safe distance.
Complain about this comment
Maximus Barbarius
Just because you did not enjoy you holiday in France (and all Europeans hope that you are never given a visa to return to Europe!) it is no reason to be so beastly to Europeans.
Europe will not collapse - its collapse is about as likely as the USA falling apart (and less likely that Canada divides). You and your country's evil dreams of superiority are collapsing all about you. Your tragedy is that you still believe that you are a super power - you aren't - you are entirely dependent on borrowing money from the Chinese. If they chose to stop lending your country would implode - for the moment it suits them to keep funding you as you sink deeper and deeper into their debt. Europe is at least tacking its debt mountain you can't even afford to start doing that!
Complain about this comment
# 12,
So all your posts are really just a 'get back' at all those naughty people that indulge in anti-Americanism? Most of them aren't as persistent as you though, nor do they have such a broad brush. I should have known it was about hurt feelings. Sort of derails the topic the entire time though, do you really have nothing better to do?
Complain about this comment
HennyPenneyInHelldomUK;
It was more than a holiday, it was nearly two years. Actually it was quite enjoyable and interesting. Unlike many French, I had heat in the winter all winter long. It's quite an experience to live for awhile in a foreign country on your own. I highly recommend it. Especially one where you do not speak the native language like a native. Of course that in no way changes what I learned about it. Were I in the same circumstances though I'd do it again.
"Europe will not collapse"
That's strange coming from a European so soon after the recent debacle with Greek debt, worries about the other PIIGS and Europeans running around higgledy-piggledy like headless chickens screaming; "the sky is falling, the sky is falling."
Like it or not HennyPenny the US is still by far the world's most powerful economy and the number one cultural influence on the planet. I think China needs America far more than America needs China and if China's little games continue, the Chinese will find that out the hard way.
What's the matter napthalene, Europeans can't stand the taste of their own medicine?
"Most of them aren't as persistent as you though, nor do they have such a broad brush."
Lilliputians all look alike to me. Perhaps one cockroach looks different from another...to another cockroach. But to me all Europeans look more or less the same. The differences are mere unimportant details, variants of the same species.
Complain about this comment
What medicine are you talking about? Oh, wait, don't tell me. You've probably got one of your 5 anecdotes lined up for that. Trolling really went out of fashion around 2005, you know. By the way, you wouldn't happen to be running for governor in Tennessee, right?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ohh, so here we are, not that I'm a prophet or anything just trying to think logically. Back in a Oct in a post I wrote something along the following: "The media likes a good crisis to write about, Greece would not default, the money would be found somehow or another, the Euro would go one, but with a crisis mechanism in place, the world would still go round and everyone would go on holidays in August" so far so good.
MAII still predicts doom and gloom, my fellow Europhobes still predict the end of the Euro, they still hope that DC will take us out of the EU (fat chance of that!!!) and Nik the Greek managed to survive several attaks first on his theories that although some his claims a bit extreme over all his analysis of this is pretty spot on as to why things happen and second as to what type of creature he is based on cranial shapes!!
And so as we skip the month of August as a non event month and we move to the second half of the year, contrary to us European "living beyond our mean" technical no such thing exists, we all live with what we have access to! we will go forward, our economis will get stronger, no matter what "analysts" expect unemployment will go down. Basically what the recession has done delayed everything by 1 year or 2. Bridges, roads, hospitals, schools, research centers, computer programmes, etc. that we needed and had to be build 2 years ago, are still needed and as there is no magic involved then some one has to do.
With that in mind I'm off to a small break this weekend, hope to visit the Lithuanian country side, I'll be able to give Jukka a first had report about the "creative desctruction" side effects of free market economics:)))
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#20.
John, more than true!
with all three main EU states cutting back defense budgets it is a good opportunity to explore ways to reduce costs without reducing operational abilities!
Complain about this comment
Gavin wrote: There are green shoots everywhere.
I've also noticed than greebacks are more readily accepted than before.
Complain about this comment
11. At 8:38pm on 29 Jul 2010, DiscoStu_d wrote:
"""@8 Nik wrote "....we would not have Jeffrey....""""
"""As doubtless you know, he was born in St Paul, Minnesota (USA). His Dad was a professor at the local Uni. I live across the river in Minneapolis. I hope you harbor no hard feelings towards us. :)"""
Absolutely not. I actually like American people and mid-fielders Minnesotians, just like Ohaians, are loveable people. I might as well be visiting US next autumn (for tourism, probably Florida side) so really I harbour no bad feelings.
Look, I clash too often with MAII and powermeercat on geopolitical issues but that is all. When I say 2001 was provoked internally I base it on my general engineering knowledge (I am not a specialist in civil engineering of course) according to which no type of catastrophic failure can make a building fall vertically on itself apart in the case of controlled demolition which takes out symetrically all structural supports. This is not an attack against Americans, Americans were actually under attack by inner circles and I so sympathise with American people on that telling them they are in a trap of internal (but so internatinal) conflicting interests there. When I criticise American politics considering the energy issues in Europe (Southstream, Nabucco) I do not do it to pose a stubborn resistance to everything American: I do it because according to these plans we (we Greeks, but also we Europeans-apart-British) are on the losing side. Pure mathematics. From there on, I fully understand that the State Department wishes to defend its interests and in that our little local interests are sand particles on a beach, they do not count. From there on I have no particular civilisational, cultural or any other objection to the USA and I do not mind it at all being there the most powerful country and I am not happy at all (as MAII thinks) when I hear bad news on people being bombed or losing their jobs. It is the interventionism which I mind.
On the issue of Papandreou, mind you, even the mass of Greeks who recognise openly the catastrophic presence of the Papandreou family in Greece are not in position to pinpoint "how" and "why" and only remain in the doings of father Andreas Papandreou while forgetting the role of grandfather Papandreou in firing the civil war when he came along with the British (who had assasinated the last Greek president (or semi-dictator) Metaxas). And note that what happened in the 20th century in Greece was 90% thanx to the British and not so much the Americans (on whom the naive Greek people tend to concentrate their criticism - Americans being the last actually to arrive and simply take over the British geopolitics in the area / => US geopolitics in the area are identical to early-mid 20th century British ones).
Mind you I am not any extremist; I just drag the rope more to bring it to the middle. Eg. even when I fall hard on the likes of Turkey it is to wake these people up and realise in what country they live. You can't wake up people by caressing them, especially people who just want to sleep over. You have to drag the sheets and kick them out of the bed. I do not claim to hold the truth on everything and often here admitted my mistakes. Net-commenting is my hobby, I do like side-issues too but also I do like to comment on the points.
Complain about this comment
Gavin wrote: Most observers accept that Europe cannot sustain its way of life with growth under 2%.
But under 2% of EU citizens can.
Complain about this comment
"The real question in my mind is if the Greco-Turkish blog war will spill over onto this entry. Sometime over the next couple weeks-until Gavin's return-I bet it does. I suspect WWII will come up too."
You 're way behind the curve.
That debate has already moved waaay back before WWI, Gallipoli, etc.
Pretty soon the interested parties will start to discuss why a defeat at Kosovo Polje is being celebrated. By the defeated.
Now 'bout that Vienna Battle...
Complain about this comment
Re20: (You are British aren't you?) If only British politics could listen to voices like yours.
Britain had always been the odd-kid in the EU. Not that British people hate Europeans or something (well French are cheese eating surrender frogs! and Germans hand-up-high-saluting-hail! but on the one hand their politics are still clocked anti-clockwise in comparison to the rest of Europe and that does not changes from one day to another. Britain till very recently (people of that era are still alive) had been the world's main superpower. Interests do not change from one day to another. If it takes industries to deploy 5 years plans as "short/mid range", then the equivalent for short-mid range geopolitical plans of large countries are a minimum of 2-3 decades to put it bluntly.
But from there one, Britain has long remained in the cross-road and at some point there has to be taken a decision. Play or not play. Why can't it make the dual France-Germany relationship a nice trio? If differences are so many then say it loudly and leave the rest continue their path. If it can be overcome then dive in. Either decision will be difficult as there are huge positive thingies and huge negative thingies. And it is not just Britain in that, France and Germany (especially the latter) too are responsible for that loose EU approach on key issues like defense.
What you mentioned on defense is at the end, that is the heart-issue of Europe. It is not just about reducing costs in defense. It is above all about finding a consensus and protecting local European geopolitical interests as well as presenting a more clear face in international geopolitical interests.
Complain about this comment
Re "having a couple of French men in our subs and similar British men with the French deterrent is a very small price to pay"...
A still remember that world famous Montgomery's order to his France-station troops [re 'horizontal refreshment in French beet fields' etc.]:
"Soldiers should also know that if they want to buy some French Letters they should go to the nearest pharmacy and ask for 'capote d'Anglais' "
Complain about this comment
Nik, I'm not a chicken-catch-a-torry but I most certainly don't want to encounter your wrath; so I'd like make it clear way in advance that
I LIKE Metaxas!
Particularly that 7-star kind.
Complain about this comment
I think you'll find it's the politicians and bureaucrats on a month long jolly. The rest of Europe continues to work, well, except Greece but we'll not hold it against them.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
CA;
"And so as we skip the month of August as a non event month"
In China millions of people will be building cars, electronics, manufacturing textiles. In America they will researching the next generation of computers and biopharmaceuticals. In Japan they will be designing and building electronics. In Brazil, India, Canada, they will also hard at work. In Europe they will be at the beach or in the mountains drinking wine and eating cheese. In Autust 2010 Europe will have lost one more month to the rest of the world just as it does every year. It's an 8% self imposed economic penalty, the same one they indulge in every year. Imagine any other race where on each lap you take a nap for 8% of the time allowing your opponents to get even further ahead than they already were. It's the European way of life. Sleep Europe, you're a non event.
Complain about this comment
Nik;
" When I say 2001 was provoked internally I base it on my general engineering knowledge (I am not a specialist in civil engineering of course)"
Clearly you are not. Here's an offer I'll make you. You tell me what Engineering University you attended and I'll write a letter to the school recommending that you get a full refund of your tuition money. They didn't earn it. I think I can make a pretty good case for that. If it was a free university and you paid nothing for your education, you can console yourself in the knowledge that you got your money's worth out of it.
Complain about this comment
29. At 11:33am on 30 Jul 2010, Lord_P wrote:
"I think you'll find it's the politicians and bureaucrats on a month long jolly. The rest of Europe continues to work, well, except Greece but we'll not hold it against them."
Not really, most manufacturers and distributors close for 3/4 weeks as well. Not sure about shops and such.
Thats the case as far as France, Italy and Germany go anyway, and I think Sweden/Norway might do as well.
It's probably only the UK that misses out.
Complain about this comment
Indeed that may be the case. It used to be until quite recently that the Uk stuck by the 'July Fortnight' where different manufacturing cities would close down production for two weeks during July. Since scrapped in favour of holidays whenever they can be booked, not that we have too much industry left it seems. Looks like Britain misses out on the European good life yet again, ah well. Well, shop workers always have, but I assume that's the same the World over.
Complain about this comment
@31
If its a race Marcus where is the finish line, or do we just run in circles forever? Poor analogy.
Complain about this comment
"think Sweden/Norway might do as well."
Please do not equate or treat jointly Sweden and Norway.
Once in Idaho (near Sun Valley) I asked a very blond young waiter whether he was Swedish (I thought he had a slight Swedish accent).
He stiffened up a little, said no, and then recited a lovely little old poem starting with:
ONE THOUSAND SWEDES
RUN THROUGH THE WOODS
CHASED BUT BY ONE NORWEGIAN.
So as you can see it's not only this Greek/Turkish or Walloon/Flemish thing. Its pan-EUROPEAN! :)
Now, 'b out that Winter War...
Complain about this comment
"Not really, most manufacturers and distributors close for 3/4 weeks as well. Not sure about shops and such.
Thats the case as far as France, Italy and Germany go anyway, and I think Sweden/Norway might do as well."
It hardly mattered when I lived in France. They'd take a three hour lunch break and when they came back from it they were so pickled the rest of the day was shot anyway. The only big event left for the day was dinner. They adopted a 35 hour work week but if the hour cut was after lunch it wouldn't have mattered anyway.
I understand the French are the most productive workers in Europe, even more productive than Americans for the number of hours worked. What is it they produce again? Oh yeah, cheese...and bread.
In all fairness they do make those Krazy Kars like Renault and Deux Cheveaux (do they still make those) and Air blunderbus. You know, the planes that take all control away from the pilot. And small wonder. I understand that in the console between the pilot and copilot they install wine glass holders. That way they can also sit back and enjoy the ride. Take the air blunderbus....and leave the driving to us.
Complain about this comment
Nik, re Greek hhost train drivers at $100,000.00 you've mentioned...
That BBC report should make you feel much better:
"He was thought to be the oldest man in Tokyo - but when officials went to congratulate Sogen Kato on his 111th birthday, they uncovered mummified skeletal remains lying in his bed.
Mr Kato may have been dead for 30 years according to Japanese authorities.
They grew suspicious when they went to honour Mr Kato at his address in Adachi ward, but his granddaughter told them he "doesn't want to see anybody".
Mr Kato's relatives told police that he had "confined himself in his room more than 30 years ago and became a living Buddha," according to a report by Jiji Press.
But the family had received 9.5 million yen ($109,000: £70,000) in widower's pension payments via Mr Kato's bank account since his wife died six years ago, and some of the money had recently been withdrawn"
Now, is it a great summer story or what?
Complain about this comment
The elite always do well and as long as financial services can continue with the fee structure and bonus system developed during the bubble they will continue their unjustified incomes. Much of this profit is tied to loaning money to govenments that bailed them out with taxpayer monies and is now being lent back at higher interest rates while receiving at no interest. If you lend me some mony for free and I lend it back to you with interest, that is a really good deal for me. Stupid for you, but we are talking about governments and the influence of bankers.
China, like any other developing country will be under continued pressure to increase salaries as this is normal in a growing economy. Europe may wish to look at the pay structures it now supports but the push from business is to encourage a cheap labor pool and not one that is paid for the effort.
Now the reality that needs attention is the unemployed and not the over-employed. There is not a lot of movement in economic growth outside the fantasy world of government and financial services and that is just a collusion among the wealthy and their political handmaidens.
The other nations that have yet to implement changes in services and increased taxes are only delaying the pain to come. The UK is only in the discussion stage and nothing has acutually been done to date.
This is chapter one in a long novel. Chapter I: The Wealthy Are Still Wealthy. Chapter II: The Bill for the Party has Arrived and the Organizers Have Skipped Out.
Complain about this comment
malefactor, it's a race into the future and towards prosperity. It's a race to create wealth and better more powerful and efficient technology. If your work is one of the more important activities in your life, then you have a chance to make a contribution. If on the other hand people see it as a necessary evil between weekends, holidays, vacations, and wine breaks, then about all you can accomplish is going through the motions. When how much you produce becomes more important than what the value of what you produce is, then you are already in trouble. Remember all of those Soviet five year plans and their quotas? Rembember all of that drab useless clothing they made and the factory that turned out thousands of pairs of shoes, all of them left footed? BTW, what style of cheese do you think sells best in France, Brie?
Complain about this comment
ghost of sechuan chicken;
Do you ever sit up wondering nights if the Bank of America doesn't have a secret enemies list and who's on it if they do?
Complain about this comment
Europe's collapse has been predicted so often by so many "Eurosceptics", I lost count. Those who predicted Europe's survival and prosperity have been 100% right to this point, whilst the Eurosceptics" have been 100% wrong so far.
Complain about this comment
"Europe's Dog Days," a deliberate gratuitous and wholly undeserved insult to dogs, especially now that we believe it was the dogs themselves and not man that caused their evolution from wolves. And it is thought to have been done in the remarkably short time span of 100 years or less. Could Europeans do the same and evolve at such a rapid rate? Frankly having observed them for the better part of a lifetime I don't hold out much hope that they can.
Complain about this comment
Marcus the A:
I would never expect you to be critical of an institution called Bank of America. The fact that they and other banks robbed people all over the world of their retirement accounts and investments with a fraud that was facilitated by the US Congress is of little meaning to you. You may wish to check on the congressional hearings of 2001 and after where the congress was told of the banking scheme but banking lobbyist made sure nothing was done to prevent the current situation. Not one of the bankers has been held accountable but it simply relfects that the old class system of Europe now reside in the US. I simply recognize bankers as bankers. They have no agenda but to make money, not for the depositors not even so much for investors, but for the staff. As they have little to lose in that process they have no restraint for gambling, lying or anything else that might increase their bonus. That is why regulation and oversight is needed. They have no national interest and have sold out the US as much as the UK. You and others for your political agenda may wish to blame the current administration but it was the result of a corrupt congress from both parties. I see the unemployment in the US is still around 10%..not including those they don't count...and yes...I blame the bankers and financial services for this and you and others like to play politics and blame the President. If a President is to be blamed, it would be President Bush. The Bank of America's enemies list is: Honesty and accountability.
Complain about this comment
40. At 2:03pm on 30 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"malefactor, it's a race into the future and towards prosperity. It's a race to create wealth and better more powerful and efficient technology."
Well then, what with the Europe being both prosperous and technologically advanced I'd say where in a pretty good position.
And we do it all while taking 2 months a year off...
EU #1 for GDP and living standards!!
n.b. Except Britain... only one month off for us :-( .
Complain about this comment
Ghost I believe you last post is called wasting your time. There's no point arguing with a man who has already made up his mind.
Complain about this comment
ghost of sechuan chicken;
You'd be surprised at how much of your posting I agree with. But if I had to blame one president for much of it I'd blame Clinton, and the first President Bush too. But Bush the second went along with it as did leaders and members of both houses of Congress, notably Senator Dodd and Congressman Franks. But let's not leave out Alan Greenspan and the crowds in the Fed and at Treasury.
"They have no agenda but to make money, not for the depositors not even so much for investors, but for the staff."
Actually only for themselves, not even the staff. Funny that's my agenda too. How sorry I am that I went into the wrong line of work. I should have become a banker too. In the next life.
"I see the unemployment in the US is still around 10%..not including those they don't count...and yes...I blame the bankers and financial services for this and you and others like to play politics and blame the President."
If you count the underemployed and those who gave up looking for work it may be 25% to 30% or higher. And it may even be worse in some areas.
While I can't blame Obama for the crisis (he wasn't any smarter about seeing it coming and warning us about it than anyone else though) I do blame him for the tight monetary policy at Treasury that is bankrupting America and the world. This is to shield the banks from inflation and devaluation of debt that would hurt them but is the only viable way to bring America's economy and the world's back to life. So until he is forced to by circumstances, tighten your belt it is going to be a rough ride, one that I don't think Europe will survive. I just wonder if the rest of us will.
Complain about this comment
Do I hear the sound of chickens being counted?
The Euro Crisis still has a long way to go as the fundamental flaw of the Euro not having centralised political control for setting interest Rates ¦ capacity to devalue/revalue the currency ¦ print additional currency wholesale for the whole of the Eurozone, etc. is still not in place and Greece still has very, very serious problems in both the short and long term regarding its debt/interest repayments.
To suggest that the Euro Crisis is over is risible.
Complain about this comment
42.Chris Camp wrote: Europe's collapse has been predicted so often by so many "Eurosceptics", I lost count. Those who predicted Europe's survival and prosperity have been 100% right to this point, whilst the Eurosceptics" have been 100% wrong so far.
I certainly hope Europe survives. I like Europe.
However, I hate the undemocratic EU. And I only wish it would collapse but I, unlike others, do not underestimate the level of psychological commitment the political 'leaders' have made to prop up the EU at all and any cost. They wouldn't care a jot if they had to destroy half our wealth to keep the EU alive. To them, it's EU ahead of everything else.
I wrote a little anthem for them, to be called 'EU-lied'
EU EU über alles
we won't let it fall apart
we don't care about democracy
destroying it we made a good start
from the Atlantic to the Urals
from the Med to the ice sea
EU EU über alles
über alles in die welt
us together with much glee
can go to Brussels to rule by decree
Sound familiar? ;-)
Complain about this comment
@ 23 Nik: Thanks Nik. I most definitely appreciate the nuance between disliking american policy and americans themselves. I certainly never detected anything other than dislike of US policy in your posts. Being Minnesotan, along with Jeffrey, I joked that maybe you would have preferred he stayed here in the cold, mid-west US. (The winters are siberian in nature and so I can't blame him for leaving to warmer climes! I will too one day.)
I oftentimes very much dislike US policy (meddling) in the world myself. And I certainly am not of the MAII mold in that the US can do no wrong, that everything is better here, etc. The US is rightly rebuked and criticized over its past (and current) excesses in the international arena. And, perhaps like you, I do not always believe in coincidence and/or the official representation of 'facts'.
Complain about this comment
#50 Discostu_d
Welcome on board !
As you have noticed, we require Intelligent American contributors.
Complain about this comment
It it still too easy re-sell products made abroad than to produce and sell at home.
American imports rose 28 %.
Some retail stores are up to 90-95% IMPORTS.
This is programed job and societal suicide.
Complain about this comment
Re 48. At 4:18pm on 30 Jul 2010, Menedemus wrote:
"the fundamental flaw of the Euro not having centralised political control for setting interest Rates"
I thought it was a wise decision taken by the USA, Eurozone and the UK, that of letting the Central Banks control the currency rather than politics. Would you care explaining how so many economists (even very euroskeptic ones) have got it so wrong?
"¦ capacity to devalue/revalue the currency"
I don't see how this is a flaw. In fact, I believe this is a
"¦ print additional currency wholesale for the whole of the Eurozone,"
I'm afraid I don't understand what this "flaw" means? There must be a reason currency is called "liquidity" in finance and ecnomics textbooks.
"is still not in place and Greece still has very, very serious problems in both the short and long term regarding its debt/interest repayments."
This is true, they still have to sort it out.
"To suggest that the Euro Crisis is over is risible."
Maybe, but to suggest that there was anything like a "Euro Crisis" phenomenon denotes a level of obsessive thickness with everything Euro. The financial crisis of 2008 started in the USA and has engulfed the whole of Americas and Europe, including some parts of Asia. What you like to call "Euro Crisis" is a reflection of this world crisis in the Eurozone.
If you cared to look more deeply into the matter, Greece has not fallen victim to its eurofication, but to mismanagement and to irresponsible debt policies, propagated mostly (until chicken came home to roost in late 2008) by the free-marketeers of North-American schooling.
Trying to isolate the "Euro Crisis" from the rest of the global crisis and talk about it as an isolated phenomenon that needs to be cured only in Brussels, might be a useful rhetorical maneuver for desperate euroskeptics, but it is a bit counter-productive to sane argumentation and does not lead anywhere, except people making fools of themselves.
Complain about this comment
Re: EU EU über alles
May I modify it a bit?
EU EU unter alles
alles which did fall apart
We don't care about the Brussels
let it fall and have fresh start.
from the Lisbon to Helsinki
from the Med to cold Baltic
EU is not serving alles
so let's give its butt a kick.
P.S. How to write in amoroso
when in charge is ..who? Barroso.
Complain about this comment
ChrisArta
re #19 & "..Nik the greek managed to survive.. his analysis of this is pretty spot-on as to why things happen.."
You have got to be kidding!?
You back the totally unfounded theories from the 'conspiracy' spinner of Athenian tales!
IMO, if You're not taking the michael You just lost all credibility.
Even MAscaridII occasionally hits the nail on the head; in all honesty I've yet to read 2 consecutive paragraphs by the mad-greek that add up to one substantiated, verified, literal set-of-facts.
Still, each to their own as they say: You enjoy the company and I wish You well cos it's a lonely Aegean planet out there!
Complain about this comment
Whilst it may be 'dog days' for the Brussels apparatchiks, MEPs, Commissioners etc. that is certainly not the case for the EUropean Court of Justice.
The ECJ - - You all know, that innocent, innocuous, benign EU Legal body with 'competences' that mean nothing but good in interpreting EU Law for the EU27 Nations - - it is hearing a Case brought by 5 'Asylum-seekers' in Eire.
The gist of this case is that if the ECJ 'find' in favour of the 5 asylum claimants a massive new area of National sovereignty will have been eroded by this unelected body: The authority & powers of Democratically elected National Governments to legislate & operate decisions based on National policy & made within their jurisdiction will have been undermined.
Yet another vital area of what has properly been agreed at 'National' level with the EU, i.e. that 'return to original point of entry' for applicants is now to be subject to the 'legal' interpretation of a bunch of Judges who have neither interest nor concern for their EU Citizens and see only points of Law. In other words, even EU Law/Regulation, negotiated & enacted by all EU27, may be challenged & overturned by this ECJ!
The 5 'asylum-seekers' do not want to be returned to their original point-of-entry to the EU from where they ended-up, Ireland.
They do not dispute that they originally entered the EU via Greece, but are appealing against being sent back on the grounds that Greece '..does not operate a fair or humane asylum system..' and therefore were Dublin to return them to Athens their 'Human Rights would be infringed..'.
The ECJ Judgement is expected shortly: Its decision as with all its previous ones will set the supreme precedent for the EU27.
Yet again, the ECJ will determine the Rights & Responsibilities of 500,000,000 Citizens without a moments reflection on what any of the 27 National elected governments have been elected to enact on behalf of their Citizens!
Any 'pro-EU' who still insist that Brussels does not in time intend the ECJ to replace 'democratic' government across this supra-National entity is either a liar or completely misguided/misinterpreting the powers being invested in this supreme Legal Authority.
Complain about this comment
Chris Camp
Re #42
I'm not so sure anyone has predicted Europe's "..collapse" though the EUro-currency and/or 'zone' have certainly been condemned & have come through relatively unscathed upto now.
However, the idea that the EU, the EUro & the zone are all in the clear as of now is really fanciful.
That sort of wishful-thinking is about as realistic as those who are claiming the improved economic figures for the UK show it too is well on the way to recovery.
So, "100%" right about Europe's survival & prosperity is a dangerous claim at this early stage!
Basically, such is the inter-dependence these days, if the USA Economy doesn't pull itself together during the rest of 2010 then Europe inc. the EU & UK, plus a whole lot of the World will find itself again mired in fiscal struggles by the time 2011 comes around.
Complain about this comment
52. At 6:15pm on 30 Jul 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
It it still too easy re-sell products made abroad than to produce and sell at home.
-----------------------------------
25 years or less ago Marks & Spencer were proudly telling us that 90% of there clothing was British manufactured.
Now they keep very quiet about 90% being imported, mostly from the far east.
This can never be economically sustainable and if the consumer stopped to think about it this is a kick in the teeth to themselves.
Complain about this comment
cbw;
"Whilst it may be 'dog days' for the Brussels apparatchiks, MEPs, Commissioners etc...."
Why would these people go on a vacation from their jobs when their jobs are one permanant vacation to begin with. If they took time off from what they normally do, they might actually have to pay for their own food, lodging, transportation, entertainment (whatever that means.) If I were an MEP, I'd find a way to make my "vacation" a working junket to someplace where I'd do a local study or attend an "important" meeting and stick it to the taxpayer. The Swiss Alps is probably very nice this time of year.
"Basically, such is the inter-dependence these days, if the USA Economy doesn't pull itself together during the rest of 2010 then Europe inc. the EU & UK, plus a whole lot of the World will find itself again mired in fiscal struggles by the time 2011 comes around."
More likely they will be bankrupt. As the US remains the engine that drives the rest of the world's economy its slowdown reduces its consumption of imports and therefore hurts exporting nations including the EU. Blame it on Obama's tight money policy which is designed to protect the banks and bondholders (including the government of China) from devaluation of the US dollar the debt they are owed at the expense of everyone else in America.
Complain about this comment
Kit Green, Marks and Spencer has to compete with others who import from the far east where there are no one month paid vacations and they don't have the high salaries, taxes, and regulations the UK and the rest of the EU have. You want to export anything? Then you'd better allow their imports in because in a trade war the EU will lose also. The European way of life is in for a big change. I'd look at Nigeria as the model for Europe's future. It's one possibility.
Complain about this comment
lacerniagigante @#53
The Crisis of the Euro Currency has been discussed endlessly in other threads but a brief resume seems in order as you talk of thickness whereas I am presuming obtuseness.
Regarding centralised political control: The operative word is Political. In the Eurozone all Euro currency nations have sole control over how they manage their economies. The ECB was fundamentally restricted right from the start by (a) the Eurozone Rule that individual EU Nations must have not have Debt running at more than 3% of income per annum (and, as it turned out none of the EU Nations other than Luxembourg has been able to maintain that percentage) and (b) the ECB has not been able to centrally manage the different economies and economics of the whole Eurozone as it only had overview not interaction with the individual Central Banks of each Eurozone Nation. Greece was thus able to spend, spend, spend and borrow, borrow, borrow for years without any central oversight from the ECB leading to anyone from the ECB being able to say something was wrong – and even if they did the Greeks could easily, and legitimately under current setup of the Eurozone Regime, turn around and say how we borrow and spend is OUR affair. That is a major flaw.
Regarding the ability to print additional currency wholesale for the whole of the Eurozone: The ECB cannot mint money to inflate money supply the minting is done under licence and the amounts carefully restricted - in fact one of the firms that mints Euros under licence is in the UK.
The USA and the UK were able to manage the impacts of the global recession by the use of Quantitive Easing or increasing money supply in more understandable language. The ECB cannot Quantitively Ease the Euro as it has no power to buy or sell Bonds and inflate the money supply side of the Eurozone Economy. The Euro is entirely financed by each separate Eurozone Nation and that is a major flaw.
You wrote, “The financial crisis of 2008 started in the USA and has engulfed the whole of Americas and Europe, including some parts of Asia. What you like to call "Euro Crisis" is a reflection of this world crisis in the Eurozone. This is partially true but is not the whole story. The Global Financial World has been the cause of the Global Recession and for that the Bankers have a lot to answer for but with regards to the Euro Crisis that arose and continues to be a crisis because the world recession has revealed that the endless borrowings of national governments have become unsustainable because the banks are unable or unwilling to lend as easily as they once did.
The credit crisis has led to borrowing becoming too expensive to do and where there is a risk that a nation has borrowed too much and might not be able to pay back the debt or meet its scheduled repayments the banks either freeze lending altogether or make further lending more expensive.
Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain all have humongous debt burdens. Some nations are tackling their debt mountains and succeeding, some nations probably have too great a burden and even with all the good will in the world, Greece is likely to fail to meet its repayment targets and will either have to borrow more from its fellow EU partners (which Greece has already done) or, eventually, declare its inability to repay the debt. Nations do not go bankrupt but they can loose all credibility and restructuring of debt inevitably devalues the nation’s currency to the point of worthlessness.
Unfortunately for the Eurozone, it only need one of the PIIGS nations to default and seek debt restructuring and then, because that nations currency IS shared by the other Eurozone nations ALL of the Eurozone Nations will see the value of the Euro decrease to worthlessness. That is a major failure of the Euro and not the direct result of the Global Credit Crisis but the fact that there is no mechanism for centrally managing the interdependency of the individual Eurozone Nations and ensuring that they did not get into too great a debt in the first place.
You wrote that you saw the exclamations of the Euro Crisis being EU Scepticism. That is a concept that is not necessarily true. I am an EU sceptic as I believe the EU to be fundamentally undemocratic but I am not against the Euro personally as I think the Euro, as a common currency shared by ALL European Nations, would be a great thing economically as it does away with transaction costs for the common market of which we all should benefit from being part of and within the EU.
I do believe in the future of Europe being united but I sincerely believe that individual nation states should remain separate if they wish to do so but other individual nations must surrender all sovereignty to EU if they wish to be more closely entwined and adopt a shared common currency. If a nation wants to be in the Eurozone they must be prepared to surrender all of their sovereignty especially Fiscal control to the ECB who must be able to act in the same way as Central Bank should behave and control the economy – the only difference being that the ECB would be doing this for several nations and the change would be, initially, very painful for some and less painful for others. For other nations, those who want to be outside of the Euro, the sharing of sovereignty is unnecessary.
I would very much like to see the Euro succeed and get over the current problems but I do think that it is too early to be counting chickens before they hatch and think that anything has fundamentally changed for the Euro … it has not as Greece is still a great risk of defaulting on its debts and the core problems of the Euro being set up without POLITICAL controls and central fiscal controls in place remain non existent.
The speculators and financiers know that these Eurozone problems have not gone away and, like the wolves they are, they will back and when they do the Euro Crisis will simply resume where it left off!
Complain about this comment
"The speculators and financiers know that these Eurozone problems have not gone away and, like the wolves they are, they will back and when they do the Euro Crisis will simply resume where it left off!"
That's right. When you have a convertable currency you are in a game where speculators can play the value of one currency off against another. If one currency has a flawed system of controls and is overvalued, backed by economies that are far weaker relative to others than the covertable rate suggests, this presents an opportunity for those speculators to bet that eventually its real value will catch up to it. And it will. When it appears weakest the speculators will pounce, you can count on it. And in the act of selling it short, it will drive it down which will only compound its problems because when it plunges in value to what it is actually worth or even lower, interest rates will rise for it and that will tend to weaken its underlying economies even more driving it down further. Bottom line, if you swim with the sharks, don't bleed. If you don't learn that lesson, you will become fishbait.
Complain about this comment
MAII, 59,
"As the US remains the engine that drives the rest of the world's economy its slowdown reduces its consumption of imports and therefore hurts exporting nations including the EU."
Have you still to realise the trade deficit or imbalance between the USA and Europe, your dumbo, Obama, was trying to persuade Cameron to continue buying the empty boxes that you produce so often whilst claiming they are new and better products. Today Osbourne has given Obama his answer, the Trident replacement is in the defence budget, which is code for your desperate manufacturers that at least one of the golden geese has been plucked enough. Plus we all know the projected cost of 20 Billion would end up being three times that if the USA bribed the contract.
Complain about this comment
Buzzard 23
Do I have to teach you economics 101? I hope there's no value added tax on education in Europe. If there is, they've overcharged.
The EU is a net exporter to the US. If the American economy slows and imports from Europe slows that hurts Europe's economy. Don't try to understand it all at once. Think about it over the coming months and years. I'm sure eventually you'll get it.
I really don't think it's a good idea for the US to sell Trident submarines to the UK. It's much too powerful a weapon for the UK to handle. Their alternative is to buy the Russian Kursk class sub. Those have a tendency to blow up especially if you try to launch a torpedo and you don't get it exactly right. As for the UK designing one themselves that is a joke. They couldn't manage a car. The Jaguar needed a tuneup every time it went around the block until Ford re-engineered it and the MG had a carburator one auto magazine described as a controlled drip. The UK is good at fish and chips though....if you like grease.
Complain about this comment
Well I am a Brain Surgeon and I think this is SILLY!
Complain about this comment
Md_or
Yeah, you're a brain surgeon and I'm the Queen of the May.
Complain about this comment
Just watched a CNN report from Madrid showing huge lines of unemployed desperately trying to find a job, any job. And not finding it.
40% unemployment among 17 to 24 year olds?
Its almost like Mali or Burkina Faso.
Scary. Absolutely scary.
Complain about this comment
Re#66
Both dr Ayman Zawahiri of al-Qaida and dr Bashar Assad of Syria are eye surgeons.
That's why perhaps neither of them will be able to see what hits them.
Complain about this comment
Silvio Berlusconi is unlikely to visit Berlin any time soon. The educated and enlightened European audience can find the reason in the serious European newspapers - the latest example is on page 6 in this week’s edition of Die Zeit.
BBC will not allow that I write anything about the reason, but participants here can google the name Dell’Utri, which is a key to the whole matter. One day BBC will also have to write about theses things. In the meantime it can be said that Berlusconi’s party is in trouble.
Complain about this comment
"In the meantime it can be said that Berlusconi’s party is in trouble."
Whole Italy has been in trouble for many years.
Just like other ClubMed countries.
[welfare state, massive corruption and tax evasion, etc.]
Greece is currently in the 1st place on a list of potential defaults; but Spain, Portugal and Italy are breathing on her neck.
Complain about this comment
56.cool_brush_work wrote:
The ECJ - - You all know, that innocent, innocuous, benign EU Legal body with 'competences' that mean nothing but good in interpreting EU Law for the EU27 Nations - - it is hearing a Case brought by 5 'Asylum-seekers' in Eire.
ECJ? Innocent? Where have you been? The ECJ has been the 'motor of integration' for decades. The judges for ECJ are screened for adherence to 'integration über alles'. This is most deliberate.
The gist of this case is that if the ECJ 'find' in favour of the 5 asylum claimants a massive new area of National sovereignty will have been eroded by this unelected body
Bingo, just the way the antidemocratic EU likes it. They deliberately write these treaties so they can be interpreted in basically any way the ECJ wants. And since ECJ judges are screened for adherence to the 'integration über alles' ideology the outcome can already be readily guessed.
Any 'pro-EU' who still insist that Brussels does not in time intend the ECJ to replace 'democratic' government across this supra-National entity is either a liar or completely misguided/misinterpreting the powers being invested in this supreme Legal Authority.
Well, quite. The pro-EU crowd LOVES this set-up. Remember, this was deliberately done this way, any powers not 'given' to EU by member states can in this way be seized via ECJ. They'll find some cockamamy interpretation of how this somehow affects the 'internal market' (and if it does, the ECJ can simply declare it to be an EU competence).
Complain about this comment
powermeerkat you left out Ireland. In a recent program about unemployment in Ireland, it became clear that there are many young recent grads who do not believe they will ever be able to get and hold on to a paying job, at least not in Ireland.
Complain about this comment
2. At 6:25pm on 29 Jul 2010, democracythreat wrote:
"...... it is worth noting just how conceited Hewitt is. ..."
EUpris: I do not accept that Gavin is conceited. On this blog, words like conceited, arrogant, dinosaur, xenophobic, mad, racist etc. are used as code for "does not agree with me."
Complain about this comment
70 powermeer wrote:
"Whole Italy has been in trouble for many years.
Just like other ClubMed countries.
[welfare state, massive corruption and tax evasion, etc.]
Greece is currently in the 1st place on a list of potential defaults; but Spain, Portugal and Italy are breathing on her neck."
You are right, and they (Greece and Italy) have been in trouble on and off for over three thousand years, up and down, up and down.
The question is will the good ol US of A still be there after all that time or will it have been dead and buried like the empires of Babylon, Persia, Egypt et al?
Complain about this comment
Sorry to disappoint you Peggy but Uncle Sam will be just fine long after Europium completes its tranformation by radioactive decay into base metals.
Just hope that your lifeboat can make it all the way across the pond and we take you in when your skewered isle sinks into the swamp with the rest of the muck. I'd opt for reproductions of the Nina, Pinta, or Santa Maria, or even the Mayflower if I were you. It's true they took three months to make an Atlantic crossing but the British navy could take a whole lot longer, especially if it has to drop some of its refugees off at the Malvinas en route, that is if it can persuade Argentina to let them in.
Complain about this comment
Indian railways are world's second largest network having more than 4 million employees. But there are so many accidents happens due to lack of care. No electricity is provided in remote areas. Can India take a lesson from Britain to cleanse our platform as in UK? Narrow guage, Meter guage are some of the types of tracks in the India. Before indepedance in 1853, first train was transported from Bombay to Thane. Greater Indian Peninsular Railways was founded later. Malgudi days is the novel on raiways was written by R K Narayanan in Madras. I am deeply impressed by the railway network in India especially in Mumbai.
Complain about this comment
Today's Daily Express writes:
"Britain's open border system was last night blamed for encouraging a Romanian gypsy gang to bring in almost 200 children to beg and steel up to £20million a year on our streets."
Complain about this comment
mvr512
Re #71 & the "..innocent ECJ.."
I think You missed out on my 'sarcasm' about the beloved ECJ!
I also think You agreed with all my points in #56 about why the ECJ is such a threat to Democracy in the UK & across Continental EUrope.
So, basically we have exactly the same views on the wretched institution and I suspect share similar ideas on all the other EU-parts.
The EU: Better 'out' than 'in' as my Granny used to remark when we kids suffered lower-bowel indiscretions that rather like Brussels' over-reaching competencies & excessive greed caused a nasty stink and served only to remind of excess gastric juices!
Complain about this comment
Re #77
Try reading "The Guardian" instead. It would not mention this kind of news and you would find it far less depressing a read.
Strangely enough, its not a news item that would get reported by the BBC either.
Propaganda can be as much based on what one hears, sees or reads as well as what is NOT heard, seen or published these days.
Complain about this comment
EUprisoner;
There's an old saying on my side of the pond; be careful what you wish for, you never know when your wish might come true. Why doesn't Britain admit that the Chunnel was a serious mistake and seal it off forever? America is trying to build a wall that won't be nearly as effective as the Channel was at keeping out illegal aliens and here you had the perfect solution to a problem that didn't exist until you defeated it. Europe always falls victim to the law of unintended consequences because it never thinks ahead and never considers the down side of getting what it wants.
Complain about this comment
Menedemus
Re #79 & the #77
Yes, isn't it strange how the sufferings of the lowly immigrant & other 'worthy' PC causes get a regular mention on the BBC etc. (e.g. look back at the BBC News web-site pages for the last 6 months - - You will find a mention almost every week of an 'immigration' issue - - then try & find in that period the same concerned reporting for the Pensioners of the UK!).
Just as EUpris should not take his 'news' item as encapsulating the behaviours of all 'roma/gipsy' etc., so those Guardian & BBC readers should not take the 'worthy' causes at face value.
Complain about this comment
RamachandraWani
Re #76
During my armed forces time in the mid-1970s I was for a few days in India & travelling on the Indian Railways - - we were supposed to be on a reciprocal visit with Indian counterparts - - during our sight-seeing they (UK MOD) asked us to 'generally observe' (euphamism for make notes of anyhting of military interest.
India had a 'pro-Soviet' stance back then but still had friendly exchanges with Britain and I think we were supposed to be assisting in that 'friendly' relations (so the part-time 'spying' was not taken seriously by us) and I believe our visit was well received though not widely publicised.
I saw nothing that stood out from a 'military' viewpoint, but did observe how the Indian Railways still appeared to give off an impression of the British Raj era which I only knew from cinema films. It was also impressive because of the vastness of the distances we covered for very low prices (by UK standards).
India was amazingly beautiful & so many contrasts: I have never been back, but hope to before I shuttle off...
Cheers.
Complain about this comment
"The crisis in the eurozone has raised again the question of how countries that are so different can inhabit the same monetary union."
I've read so many remarks like this I'm really fed up. Just look up the CIA Factbook and discover that the difference betwen per capita GDP in Germany and Greece is 4% in PPP terms and 20% in current Euro terms -- less than the difference between the income levels of Uri and Basel in Switzerland, less than the difference between California and you-name-what-other American state, less than the difference between Ossi and Wessi Germans.
The casual remark is ludicrous. The Euro is here to stay.
Complain about this comment
British men dressed as nuns stand trial in Crete
Seventeen British men stood trial dressed in nun's habits on the Greek island of Crete for flashing their bottoms in public, but walked free after no one showed up to testify their behavior was offensive.
I would like to ask my British friends...Is this has something to do with your excellent British Education?
Complain about this comment
Ellias;
You'd think that they'd get sentenced for food poisoning as the mere thought of what they must have looked like is enough to turn one's stomach. Do you think they were drunk or sober when they "did it?"
So these are British tourists in their native habit-at. They might have been less unpalateble when they were soccer hooligans.
Of course nobody testified. Who would want it on their conscience that they sent a nun to prison let alone seventeen of them.
Complain about this comment
Ellinas @#84
I suspect it is very much to do with the quality of education within the United Kingdom.
The UK Education System did use to educate pupils at one time, alas now it is just a system designed to get many of the kids examination passes and then get them to University so they don't appear on the Unemployment Figures until their mid-20s.
Mind you, the 17 "Nuns" will all have a BA (Honours) in Media Arts so they will have showed their backsides off artistically. ;o)
Complain about this comment
#84
Were they Scottish?
Complain about this comment
Brad Git @#87
Nah, they were wearing thongs under their habits!
Any self-respectful Scotsman would be commando. ;o)
Complain about this comment
Now I know what waving the British flag really means.
Complain about this comment
#98 MarcusAurellius
Thats the other side -stupid !
Complain about this comment
84 Elinas
I wish the press wouldn't call them British, that will give us Scots, Welsh and Irish a bad name. They were ENGLISH which makes a lot of difference and is to be expected.
Complain about this comment
Common Peggy;
"I wish the press wouldn't call them British, that will give us Scots, Welsh and Irish a bad name."
With the release of Megrahi and the revelations about the child abuse by the Catholic Church it seems to me the Scotch and the Irish are doing well in that department all on their own without help from England.
Complain about this comment
#83. At 8:21pm on 31 Jul 2010, Finanzo,
Just how is the GDP for Germany and Greece made up, as base statistics like you've quoted mean very little, are you claiming that Greece has a heavy industrial base like Germany or that millions of tourists flock to the Northern beaches of Germany and the North sea for unadulterated sunshine, or that German cooking is the same as Greek cooking. Ye gods, they are completely different economies and that has been shown by the different way the two economies have reacted to the economic recession.
Or to quote from your CIA factbook "The German economy - the fifth largest economy in the world in PPP terms and Europe's largest - is a leading exporter of machinery, vehicles, chemicals, and household equipment and benefits from a highly skilled labor force." against "Greece has a capitalist economy with the public sector accounting for about 40% of GDP and with per capita GDP about two-thirds that of the leading euro-zone economies. Tourism provides 15% of GDP. Immigrants make up nearly one-fifth of the work force, mainly in agricultural and unskilled jobs.".
Do you still claim that they are not totally different economies?
Complain about this comment
Ellinas & #84 plus MHoward & #91
No, nothing to do with English and/or British 'education'.
Judging from Your 2 reactions some utterly juvenile behaviour in a public place is to be taken as further proof of an entire nation's characteristics.
Whereas, 'nobody' turned up to give evidence about either the gross misconduct or plain, light-hearted idiocy.
That You 2 prudes try to pose it as indicative of the British/English whereas 'nobody' turned up to give evidence of supposed offensiveness reveals as much about Your personalities as the fools with bare 'a##es' about their societal judgement skills.
Complain about this comment
#94. At 09:29am on 01 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work, and Ellinas and MHoward,
I'm wondering how 17 men managed to get 17 nun's habits, knowing luggage restrictions I guess they did not arrive with them, so are there now some nun's missing 17 habits or do the shops in Crete specialise in renting/selling women's clothing to men? The latter could well be the case if nobody turned up to give evidence about the sight of 17 backsides, either that or it's a venue used by Scots when lifting their kilts.
Complain about this comment
"powermeerkat, The question is will the good ol US of A still be there after all that time or will it have been dead and buried like the empires of Babylon, Persia, Egypt et al?"
ask me that question in a 1000 years.
Complain about this comment
Menedemus
Re #86
Totally inaccurate description of the UK/England Education system.
The reality is that it is serving a huge multi-cultural society that has changed out of all recognition from the 1950s-60s. Changes that are often overlooked: As late as 1980 the computer was a slab of metal in the corner of the class-room of most schools - - nowadays every Secondary School has dedicated I.T.C suites plus Computers in almost every classroom - - is it the GCSE or 'A' level Pass in those associated Subjects You think are evidence of decaying standards?
Few modern nations have to cope with such a vast range of clientele that is prevalent in the UK/England education: The fashionable, blind dismissal of all things associated with State Education which deals with 94% of all school-age population in the UK/England (i.e. Your 'exams' to keep them off 'unemployment' allegation which You really need to substantiate or withdraw) simply is not borne out by fact. Frankly, IMO You do a dis-service to Youth & to Educators to portray all their efforts and achievements in that manner - - why would any child or educator feel motivated to succeed when their examination results are ridiculed in such a way!?
UK/England still develops some fantastic young people: Or have You not noticed the thousands of fine Armed Forces personnel, Police, Nurses, Doctors, Fire, Ambulance? Then there's all those in other key sectors of British society, e.g. from pilots, engineers & scientists to technicians, train drivers, librarians, shop managers etc. (contrary to popular misconception the variety of skin colour is 'majority' British educated in every occupation)?
It amounts to millions and those 'workers'/'employed' don't materialise from private education or because of a failing system of education.
I recall the words of a Head Teacher friend: He would regularly tell his Secondary Pupils to be proud of themselves because the 994 turning up for class would NEVER get a mention by the local media, but the 6 truants causing a disturbance in the MacDonalds would be front-page alongside the name of the school!
Try looking behind/beyond the glib headlines: Yes, there are problems and for sure things could be better - - nevertheless, the UK/England Education system still figures in the Top25 in International surveys for every key Subject.
Complain about this comment
#97. At 10:07am on 01 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work,
I'm afraid I have to disagree about the schooling in the UK as over decades the curriculum has become less concentrated on the core 3 R's and more concentrated on various trendy PC subjects that are of little use to a students career. If the comments attributed to business leaders in the media are reflective, there is a lack of school leavers that are truly literate and numerate and most need further education to impart that most useful knowledge that should have been gained at school age. For that I do not necessarily blame the teachers but rather the training colleges that taught them and the education think tank 'experts' that have created the failing teaching methods and failed curriculum's.
Complain about this comment
I cannot stand this doom and gloom talk about the end of Europe. Yes Turkey, Brazil and China may have higher growth rates so in theory Europeans should be migrating in flocks into those booming labour markets to escape the looming poverty at home. Yet Brazilians, Turks, Chinese and others continue to migrate to old Europe.
Why..., because life in China sucks: pollution, corruption, massive inequality, no individual rights and economic growth rates sustained by wretched working conditions & unsustainable production practices.
Brazil...great country if you can afford your private militia for protection & can live with the widespread poverty around you
Turkey.. great country as long as you don't criticize the government or expect basic human rights within the judiciary system.
Europe still promises a basic standard of living even for those at the bottom of society. Moreover, the continents population is declining, something economists consider a bad thing. After all how can you have the masses fighting & struggling over limited resources when the population is declining....bad for the banks & big business. Anyone ever thought about the fact that economies with a declining population do not necessary require economic growth. The Chinese need their 8% annual growth b/c half their population is still lives at Third world living conditions and continues to grow.
The challenges of this century will be sustainable non fossil fuel energy production, pollution management, water conservation and sustainable agriculture & resource management which the European political elites and the population have at least started to get a grip on. I lived in North America for 10 years, their elites are still in collective denial about these issues as well as the leaders of the BRIC countries. Orthodox economic growth takes precedent of sustainable development and production practices.
All in all Europe promises a basic standard of living, basic liberties and a quality of life unheard of in the BRIC countries. I for myself would rather live & work in a Europe with a declining standard of living (in economic terms) than in one of these so called emerging economies with their lack of individual liberties and unsustainable production practices.
Europe (that includes the UK) will prevail...it always has.
Complain about this comment
#84
Ellinas,
Perhaps this will be of interest.
Complain about this comment
creator666 @#99
It sounds great to imagine that somehow Europe is able to prevail but as you wrote, "all in all Europe promises a basic standard of living, basic liberties and a quality of life unheard of in the BRIC countries. I for myself would rather live & work in a Europe with a declining standard of living (in economic terms) than in one of these so called emerging economies with their lack of individual liberties and unsustainable production practices." I feel I have to ask one or two questions ...
How is it that Europe promises a basic standard of living, basic liberties and a quality of life unheard of in the BRIC countries? It is done by smoke and mirrors.
You imply that Europe is better than elsewhere but that betterment comes at a cost that is entirely subsidised by Government spending. The problem is that that spending is revenue form economic growth that existed 50 or more years ago when European Nations were still a center of Manufacturing Excellence but manufacturing output form Europe is in terminal decline. As Economic Growth subsides so Government have resorted to more and more borrowing to subsidise the "European Way of Life" that you seem to consider so much better than living standards enjoyed elsewhere.
The problem of borrowing is that it has to be repaid and the smoke and mirrors is that various European Nations either tax their populations excessively to the point of servitude or they borrow more and more to the point of bankruptcy.
I happen to live in the United Kingdom where I enjoy high standard of living and in a society that subsidises welfare provision and social benefits but where £1 in every £4 spent is borrowed money. The UK spends approximately £150bn per annum more than the UK receives in tax or other revenues. It has a current nation debt somewhere in excess of £14 Trillion (which no politician ever acknowledges)and the UK is in dire need of restricting its spending or that debt will further escalate and become a debt that the current UK population will never repay and our children's children will be working and paying of their great grandparent's national debt.
The UK is not alone in spending and having spent beyond it's means. Europe is a busted flush and only seems to be rich because the politicians and peoples are in denial. When they actually realise that they will have to live like the rest of the world and work, live and die within their national means then Europe will be just like Africa, the Middle East, Asia and South America - no better but no worse but just as poor as the rest of the world.
Complain about this comment
cool_brush_work, Buzet23 wrote:
"...some utterly juvenile behavior in a public place..."
"...knowing luggage restrictions...there maybe shops in Crete specialize in renting/selling women's clothing to men..."
Mystery unveiled...So i suppose in Britain you frequently see such juvenile normal behavior, of between 18 and 65 aged people...flashing their bottoms in public in search of a free "Elton john test"
EU luggage restrictions? How i didn't thought about that...
...In my entire life never knew of the existence of such shops...and they found them in one week tourist trip?...what a luck.
Complain about this comment
M;
Europeans have always lived off the sweat of other people's brow and felt they deserved it because they were better than anyone else.
Before WWII they lived off the labors of their slave empires around the world. After WWII they lived off the US and USSR because of the cold war. Since then they've lived off of credit. Now there is no more credit, no more cold war, no more empires. They owe a lot of money and have no hope of paying most of it back. Now they will be forced to live lifestyles that actually align themselves with what they can produce compared to what people in other nations produce and what they get in return for it. Can they stand it, their empty platitudes dying out as a hollow echo of a time when they got away with murder.
Complain about this comment
66. At 05:50am on 31 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Md_or
Yeah, you're a brain surgeon and I'm the Queen of the May.
_____________________________________________________
Cross dressing again marky ?.Oh its your Toga,Hmmm nice...
Complain about this comment
@93. At 08:45am on 01 Aug 2010, Buzet23
Germany and Greece may indeed be different economies but then so are West and East Germany. That doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't share the same currency.
@99. At 11:10am on 01 Aug 2010, creator666
Hear, hear.
Complain about this comment
@ 93, Buzet:
==> "Do you still claim that they (Germany and Greece) are not totally different economies?"
I never did. Of course they are completely different economies, but so are the economies of the London region and Cornwall—and in terms of per capita income, the latter couple is more disparate, which is the real point. There's no reason why the two count(r)ies shouldn't share one currency, as do Appalachia and Beverly Hills. How come such worries about Greece and Germany in the euro are only voiced by the euro-loathing, prejudiced Anglo-Saxon media, not by the Continental European? Food for thought.
Complain about this comment
Buzet23
Re #98
Well, go on then, name these "..trendy PC subjects.." and be sure to also include the Examination Board?
If You care to look at the GCSE Examinations undertaken by pupils aged 16 ALL the traditional Subjects still figure as the most sat by candidates, i.e. English Language, English Literature, Mathematics, Geography etc. and alongside those are the essentials of modern well-rounded education, e.g. Computer Studies (or equivalent title).
Perhaps it is Sports Sciences & such that worry You?
Well, if You are a youth with ambition to work in the vast & lucrative field of Sports Management in the modern age then it too is essential along with other modern subjects or do You seriously think managing a Sports Centre, Heritage site etc. doesn't need qualifications!?
Then there's PSHE (or equivalent): Personal, Social & Health Education - - doesn't get more trendy than that, does it? Except in 2010 it is another essential as in today's busy 2 working-parent lives many of the facets of Health & Hygiene are not even known still less do parents have the time to inculcate them in their off-spring.
I'm sorry, but You are reading the headlines & the glib one-liners of news media: 'Literacy' & 'Numeracy' are 2 key-words, but You began by writing about the 3 'R' and in 2010 every Primary & Secondary School in England & Wales by law devotes 40% minimum time to those core subjects - - many give them much more attention, so, what is it You don't approve of in reality?
Traditional subjects such as Art, Music, Domestic Science etc. now have dedicated classrooms for their often highly technical requirements.
Which leads again to Your 'trendy' allegation: Point to the 'trendy' in the National Curriculum because that is the Statutory detail of England's Education system. Whilst it does have some very interesting 'Optional'/'Supplementary' topics within it the fact is the NC is still focussed on the 3 'R' as the compulsory element.
Which 'failing' curriculum is it? Which Teaching methods are failing the pupils?
I repeat my query to Menedemus from #97 - - have You 'forgotten' all those thousands of fine Young people serving the UK/England? If it is 'failing' then where exactly did they all come from because for sure it is not Eton, Harrow & Cheltenham no matter how marvellous they might be at Educating the top 5% of UK's brightest & best-placed children!
The State sector takes the vast majority with children from IQ70 to IQ130+ and from every ethnicity and level of society: IMO via Comprehensives etc. it turns out some remarkably well-educated & rounded young adults.
Try another point raised by my Head Teacher friend: School, has the child for an average 30 hours a week - - society, especially 'parents' have them all the rest - - yet School is blamed for all society's youthful ills!
Those School-leavers take up University, follow College course etc. all the facets of Higher Education, or go straight into work - - they are young, gauche, living within their hedonistic era - - in 2010, they are regularly 'home alone' with Internet, TV, Interactive Games, Mobile etc., but it is still the School, College, University gets the blame for the drop-outs & the low standards.
I would suggest correcting all the faults brought on by the pressures of modern society in 30hrs is demanding too much and is in large part UK 'society' attempting to cover-up its guilt about not doing more & being more positive on behalf of its Children.
Alongside those 'achievers' there are the utter disasters, but again mine & the HT's point about the 994 'attenders' & 6 'truants' is that You, like so many concentrate of the 6 and dismiss the 994 without realising You were 1 of them not so long ago and, I'd wager, no different to a very large extent.
If UK/England Education is the basket-case of poor standards & poor values that You claim, well when did it start - - before You entered, whilst You were in it, after You left? - - just when did it all go wrong so much You feel able to pronounce on 94% of 5 to 18 Year olds of the UK/England with such certainty that 'they' are not as good, or as motivated, or as Educated as Yourself!?
Complain about this comment
Ellinas
Re #102
Must repeat: This particular complaint tells far more about You than about Britons.
If You honestly believe no Greek has ever misbehaved whilst on holiday in the UK You are deluded: However, more to the point if they had misbehaved would You be happy that all Britons should judge Greece on that incident!?
Please raise Your intellectual eyesight above the hem-line!
Complain about this comment
#106. At 7:19pm on 01 Aug 2010, Finanzo,
"How come such worries about Greece and Germany in the euro are only voiced by the euro-loathing, prejudiced Anglo-Saxon media, not by the Continental European?"
That's funny, I hear plenty of Belgians being concerned about Greece's economy, and if the continental media is halfway correct it's not only the Belgian population that are concerned as if Greece falls so do many of their country's, so cut out the Anglo-Saxon rubbish.
Complain about this comment
Regarding #97 and #107
Government data for 2009 shows 19 per cent of pupils effectively gained worse results in maths tests aged 11 than in comparable assessments taken at seven. Some 18 per cent of children also failed to make the expected progress in English – a drop in standards compared with two years earlier in 2007.
New exams taken by 16-year-olds in England reveal thousands struggled to grasp basic English and maths, including grammar, punctuation, percentages and fractions.
From 2010 all pupils will take a "functional skills" paper as part of GCSEs in the two subjects. However, trials of the exams - carried out three times during 2009 - show the majority of young people failed the functionality skills component.
Documents published under the Freedom of Information Act in 2010 show only 30 per cent of candidates passed the first maths test, which was run by the exam board OCR in January 2009. This pass rate dipped to 24 per cent in a test in March 2009 then rose slightly in June 2009 to 35 per cent. The pass rates in the three English papers were 66, 41 and 57 per cent.
It suggests pupils are failing to learn key concepts such as spelling and commas in English and measuring distances and graph reading in maths. These are topics that critics say should have been mastered in primary school.
Low pass rates will also send GCSE results plummeting when functional tests become part of the GCSE requirement from 2010.
It was reported that In 2009, Alan Smithers, professor of education at Buckingham University, said: "It is a comment on the system that after 11 years of formal education in English and maths pupils can not carry out basic operations successfully. Pupils may not have received specific teaching in the tests but if they are studying maths GCSE, they should be able to tackle this material."
In traditional GCSEs taken in 2008, 63 per cent of candidates achieved at least a C grade in English and 56 per cent in maths.
The proof of the pudding that the Educationalists have been cooking the Examination Test Results to create the illusion of academic achievement through teaching to test rather than teaching to think will be revealed from 2010 onwards.
A huge part of the problem is the quality of the Teachers available to teach is not acceptable. In 2005 it was reported that some trainee teachers are sitting basic tests in maths and English at least 10 times before they pass and become qualified. Passing the tests - in literacy, numeracy and information and communication technologies (ICT) - is a requirement of becoming a teacher.
Figures released by the Government's Teacher Training Agency show that more than 1,500 teachers who finished their postgraduate certificate of education (PGCE) course in 2007 had to sit the numeracy course at least three times. A total of 856 had to take the literacy test three times and 679 the ICT. These figures include some teachers who had to take one or other of the tests 10 times. One teacher sat the numeracy test 15 times before passing.
Care to comment?
Personally, I think the failure of the British Education System is there to be seen unless one chooses to wear rose-tinted spectacles.
The cream of pupils will prevail regardless of the failings of the system but the system of education within the bulk of the United Kingdom , i.e. England is faulty as too much teaching is designed to train pupils to pass the test/examination/assessment and not to read, write, calculate or think outside of the box. What makes matters worse is that because the educational system IS failing to educate our youth, when some of that youth then choose to become teachers some of them are found to be ill-educated and the consequence is that we end up with a situation of the blind leading the blind – all very happy and contented but blissfully unaware how blind they are and how badly they have been let down by their educators.
Complain about this comment
To cool_brush_work (107):
I think that Menedemus and Buzet23 are right on saying that the education system in the UK has degraded and doesn't anymore provide to students the same kind of intellectual assets and capacity that it did before.
The reason I think so is because intergenerational income mobility in UK has declined in the UK. Let me quote main findings of a fairly recent study "Intergenerational Mobility in Europe and North America A Report Supported by the Sutton Trust" by Jo Blanden, Paul Gregg and Stephen Machin. ( http://tinyurl.com/259w6b9 )
---
* International comparisons indicate that intergenerational mobility in Britain is of the same order of magnitude as in the US, but that these countries are substantially less mobile than Canada and the Nordic countries. Germany also looks to be more mobile than the UK and US, but a small sample size prevents us drawing a firm conclusion.
* Intergenerational mobility fell markedly over time in Britain, with there being less mobility for a cohort of people born in 1970 compared to a cohort born in 1958. No similar change is observed in the US.
* Part of the reason for the decline in mobility has been the increasing relationship between family income and educational attainment between these cohorts. This was because additional opportunities to stay in education at both age 16 and age 18 disproportionately benefited those from better-off backgrounds. For a more recent birth cohort (born in the late 1970s and early 1980s), there is a more mixed picture on changes in educational inequality.
* Their education participation in the 1990s was characterized by a narrowing in the gap between the staying on rates at 16 between rich and poor children, but a further widening in the inequality of access to higher education.
* The expansion of higher education since the late 1980s has so far
disproportionately benefited those from more affluent families. The research shows clearly, using a variety of identification techniques, that family income in the childhood years does make a genuine difference to educational outcomes, rather than reflecting other aspects which differ across families. However, the estimates are not able to say definitively whether this causal effect has increased in strength over time.
---
In short, the education system UK of today levels less of a playing field that it did before thus leading to a loss of potential as students from non-privileged/non-wealthy get less tools, less intellectual assets and less opportunities than their peers from privileged/wealthy background.
Complain about this comment
@Buzet23 #109
Why shouldn't one be worrying about Greece's economy? But that is simply no reason why the Eurozone should throw away the Euro.
In fact, you keep diverting the attention from the real focus: do the differences in the economic level of the Eurozone countries call for the end of the monetary union? If so, then Cornwall should have its own pound unsterling, Appalachia its subdollar, and Xinjiang its badminbi. Ludicrous.
Granted, more fiscal discipline is needed in the Eurozone. There, the Germans have a point, even though they showed a conspicuous lack of leadership in the recent crisis.
There will come a day when highly-indebted Britons shall regret their not having the Euro. If you count all debt, not just government debt, then Britain is possibly worse off than Greece (just see the BBC or The Economist coverage for the data). The devaluation of the pound in the last two years has done comparatively little to redress the economic imbalances: Britain's economy is heavily skewed towards finance (who wants it now?) and even a cheap pound is little or no avail to boost exports.
Complain about this comment
#107. At 7:43pm on 01 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work,
Your comments make it sound like there are so many subjects that are totally suited to students so that they can jump straight into a job. Unfortunately there are very few that can do that, most have to take further education, MVQ's, NVQ's or even that highly expensive option, University. Of a fair number of students I knew of that paid the money to go to university (or rather their parents did), only a handful found a job after getting their degree and those that did are still struggling to pay the fees, a few of the rest I know work in the fast food trade.
I'm sorry CBW, but if it essential for a school leaver to take further education then something is failing in the system, at least the MVQ type courses are vocational and are wanted by employers as my care manager daughter found out so well.
As for the comments about sporting science I have spoken to a few people doing that and as a person who was very sporty all I can say is that there are a limited number of jobs in the leisure industry and a lot wanting them. There is no point training people in topics that have limited opportunities.
Likewise why it is up to teachers to teach personal hygiene, health etc is beyond me as from the experience I had with my children and they are having with their children, many teachers of these subjects are a menace, they attend a few courses and then think they are nutritionists and dieticians. A senior dietician friend I know gets really annoyed at the dangerous health advice that comes out due to 'experts' confusing what's in a course book with what is actually sensible and healthy. One of my grandsons developed eating problems because of the 'trendy' healthy eating indoctrination he was receiving and it took some persuading before he understood he was eating very healthily and that the teacher was incorrect.
My personal experience in recent years regarding a number of schools that my UK grandchildren have (or are) attending is that today's teachers like to put children into nice convenient boxes and are not very good at identifying children outside the norm. For example, one grandson is very quiet and was labelled as poor at English by several teachers in the two primary schools he's attended despite my daughter perpetually complaining. My daughter knew his English reading ability very well from home, as do I, and he is very good as he has an excellent memory but it is only a few months ago that a new teacher realised his ability, now he is reading books way above the average.
There are a lot of problems with the UK education system, some of them are down to the left wing trendy 'think tanks' that believed 'one size fits all' and set curriculum subjects that are often of little practical use. Other problems are down to teachers being of poor quality themselves and teaching subjects that are truly not their speciality as some senior Scientists were complaining about some while back. Other problems are such as whilst core subjects are taught, the methods used are not working. It is a pity that the concept of vocational training andapprenticeships is not really pushed these days, although that does seem to be improving, as many children are simply not academic but rather practical and school education largely fails them.
In Belgium there are three levels in Secondary education, for non academic kids it technical (5 years), for more academic kids they can either do academic subjects or qualification subjects e.g accounting, IT etc from year 3 to 7. The qualification course enables them to go direct to work as my daughter did (with a formal accounting qualification) since it gives them 'access to the profession' or they can go to university.
Complain about this comment
#112. At 8:45pm on 01 Aug 2010, Finanzo,
Everybody knows that Great Britain is very much in debt just as we all know the USA is in a bad state as well, plus we know that most EU country's are also in various degrees of severe debt. All country's have for decades been living above their means and borrowing to finance that simply so that the politicians can give the illusion to their voters that their life is improving and "aren't the politicians doing a good job". That illusion has now burst so it doesn't really matter which country you talk about as they're all much the same.
The question with the Eurozone is simply down to the fact that when it was introduced the convergence criteria that was an obligation for entry was ignored by virtually all country's, especially France and Germany. This meant the Eurozone economies were already flawed at the beginning, on top of that the ability for an economy to adjust interest rates to correct imbalances was lost to the ECB which follows German and French policy. Only taxes were left in the control of a member state and it is clear that this is insufficient. The country's like the UK that are out of the Euro still have the interest and taxation mechanism's, but whether they are sufficient is another question as the problems are immense everywhere, but it does give them slightly better odds.
As for you mentioning Cornwall, Appalachia, and Xinjiang, you overlook the effects of scale, the larger the entity the more divergence there is which is a bit like the economists economy of scale theory. There comes a point when if an entity is too large things become counter productive and that seems to apply to a currency. The EU is not like the USA in many ways and whilst the Dollar works for them this does not mean the Euro will work for the EU as there are other factors. I know of few British who want the Euro to fail as it would almost certainly have a domino effect on Sterling, they simply don't trust the Euro since it was a political manoeuvre from the outset as proved by the non observance of the convergence criteria.
Complain about this comment
#113 - Buzet23
What do university degrees and confetti have in common? They are being thrown around like it is going out of fashion.
Simply make fewer university places available, provide financial incentives for people who want to read something useful (no problem with people reading Egyptology, sociology or advanced peasant farming so long as we are not paying for it) and give some credit to those who opt for vocational education and go on to have useful careers.
So long as we stop turning out bus drivers with PhDs.
Complain about this comment
Buzet23
Re #113
On the whole I believe my comments at #107 to be accurate: Those addtional qualifications are part & parcel of every modern nation's job-preparation; it is rare these days for anyone to jump straight into employment that does not as I pointed out require Higher Education than that provided for 5 to 18s.
There is always going to be issues around suitability of course, but it is just plain misunderstanding of the situation to suppose/suggest Schools alone should be preparing people for work - - frankly, it has not worked that way for most of the advanced nations for 30 or so years - - university is only 1 of many developmental/training/preparatory methods a young adult may attempt in order to qualify for the world of work.
It is unfortunate what You describe about Your relative's children but it is anecdotal and surely You cannot hold that up as an example of England's education system.
I'm afraid I have to offer an alternative on the cause of the 'eating disorder' because it is so obviously not a factor recognised by any institution specialising in such conditions: The child had some sort of 'social'/'mental' low self-esteem problem and the school lessons on diet would have been just a very small part of a much greater and more deeply involved trigger-mechanism for such an illness to develop.
As for Your daughter? Having a home & family in Brussels I am familiar to some extent with Belgian education and I'm unsure I understand Your point - - if she took up employment direct from school as an accountant then I am amazed, however, if as I believe You were describing how she entered the accountancy profession as a 'junior' assistant then I am at a loss as to why You would think that any different from that which occurs in the UK for the hiring of those 18yr olds interested in that line of employment!? Surely, like those in the UK/England she is undertaking additional studies to further her career?
What You describe in Belgium is a fairly reasonable system that has commonality to many European nations - - however, I would suggest You look at the ages and compare them with those of UK/England; there is almost no difference. I assume You know there are GCSE aimed at different levels of pupil in the UK/England and therefore the 'academic', 'technical', 'practical' streams of ability are all catered for much as they are under other titles in Belgium etc.
Here in Finland all those sorts of lower-medium-higher courses found in UK/England & across much of Europe are available. Finland figures in the top5 for almost every educational standard at European level.
Where it has a distinct advantage in my view (applies to a number of EU nations) is its Schools have a very small in-take of non-Finnish speaking/non-indigenous-cultural pupils; thus when they start at '7' (yes, that late) the Teaching profession does have less of a wide range of pupil skills etc. to cope with than in UK/England. Another distinct advantage for Finland, as Your's & Menedemus' views clearly illustrate in comparison with UK/England, is that Education and the Teaching Profession is held in the highest esteem - - it is seen as one of the most socially respectable & is extremely well-rewarded and in return the qualifications for Teaching are also very demanding - - something Finland can afford to do as it does not have to divert education resources into the kaleidescope lower age-groups that UK/England is obliged to do due to the enormous pressures of a multi-cultural element.
Contrary to Your experience, and it is anecdotal by me too, I have only known a few Graduates in recent years and they all got jobs before or within a month or 2 of quitting education (1 is a Tesco Manager, 1 a London Underground Manager, 1 a Red Cross Team manager, 1 a Doctor, 1 a Police-woman; the last 2 are my daughters); except 1 who is now a Police Forensic Scientist with the Met, but took degree courses in Italy & the USA as a part of her additional qualifications for that valuable occupation.
I'm afraid to say You are well out-of-touch with this image of UK/England education affected by 'trendy think-tank' of lefties: That began in the 60s, dominated the 70s & PM Thatcher's + Educ. Secretaries Joseph's & Baker's National Curriculum all but rightly killed it off in the 80s. You really would be hard put to find any primary school where children are now left to their own devices in the belief by some 'osmosis' they will learn reading, writing, arithmetic etc. Secondary Education outlawed that style of learning from the early 1980s as the pressure of GCSE, A & AS level plus the GNVQs just did not allow for such ridiculous teaching methods.
In a way this sort of argument is more intractable than even the EU 'in or out' issue as so much is based on so little actual evidence from documents: If we use documents then grades are improving, more pupils attaining better passes etc; if we use Your anecdotal approach then everything is bleaker than it was - - obviously I don't see it that way - - e.g. the Leisure Industry is teeming with Jobs & my Sports Centre example was put in on the understanding You would appreciate the range of occupations such modern facilities offer/require from employees. That Your anecdotal response is there are limited vacancies just leaves me wondering did Your friends know anything at all about the modern Leisure Industry, i.e. Hotel-Guesthouse Management, Catering, Health & Fitness, Project Enterprise (from the O2 Arena to the Town Bonfire Night), Heritage Tourism, Sports Arena etc. the list is endless. And the vast range of jobs & skills they require all begin with a Child at School getting their first taste for it in their UK/England GCSE/GNVQ etc.
Cheers.
PS: No offence intended to You & Yours & I do hope all is well.
Complain about this comment
#115. At 9:34pm on 01 Aug 2010, threnodio_II,
Oops, I think you meant advanced pheasant farming, but then would not advanced peasant farming be an excellent alternative description for a degree in Political Science, lol. I look forward to Brussels starting up training courses in this as a new EU initiative.
Complain about this comment
108 cool_brush_work
This particular complaint tells far more about me than about Britons?
This particular story tells far more about you as well as those Britons
"...If You honestly believe no Greek has ever misbehaved whilst on holiday in the UK You are deluded..."
Hic Rhodus, hic saltus...Not only in UK but across the whole EU
Complain about this comment
#116 - cool_brush_work
". . .Leisure Industry, i.e. Hotel-Guesthouse Management, Catering, Health & Fitness, Project Enterprise (from the O2 Arena to the Town Bonfire Night), Heritage Tourism, Sports Arena etc . . "
. . . and does anyone make anything any more, maintain anything, clean or service anything any more or are our children all doomed to work in service industries dedicated solely to generating money? I though we had learned something about the futility of printing money recently. Why do you think that the German economy is the first to go into strong recovery? Because they make things - including, incidentally, phones for Nokia.
Complain about this comment
Menedemus
Re #110
Yes, I do care to comment.
First, I'm unsure as to why You would imagine Your figures would not be replicated in other European nations?
Second, I actually do not find those figures too concerning (except the '15' times taking the test! What the heck were they thinking allowing him/her a Teacher's Cert!?): I don't find them all that bad as surely it is an indication these thigs are being measured, are being addressed & new Teachers are being made to reach serious standards. When that is taken alongside the huge numbers of Teachers in UK/England then it would seem the % is not so great & the % of First-time passes is very high indeed. Furthermore, since when did failing once become a knock-out blow in educational terms at any level - - are not 'Resits' all part of the technique of developing & rewarding those that aspire?
Third, any trial of a 'new' examinable School Subject is bound to be less than impressive, foir surely itis a trial in order to find out exactly thoe sorts of things so that its national introduction is a smooth as is feasible given all the other constraints on Education.
Fourth, I have certainly never had 'rose tinted glasses', but then neither have I felt able to condemn an entire Nation's Teaching & Learning based on far from accurate personal prejudices about what is or is not good teaching. If one took Your "..failure of the British Education system.." at face value one could conclude You were unaware the Scottish & Northern ireland systems were entirely different from that in England & Wales. It might be possible to extrapolate from that You were unaware N.Ireland (amazingly even in the 'troubles') schools were among the highest attainers in all Europe; or, that You seemed to believe the UK/England was in some sort '..blind leading the blind..' spiral of collapse when all the evidence of the last 20 years to 2008 is to the contrary in terms of the prosperity of the Nations & of the achievements of the Peoples within each.
Menedemus, as I wrote to Buzet23, this is a more intractible debate than even the EU: And, we are not going to agree, however, just like the EU 'on or out' debate, time will reveal which of us had the right on our side.
Cheers.
Complain about this comment
#117 - Buzet23
Pheasants - if you can't beat them, shoot them - but only the highly qualified ones mind!
Complain about this comment
#120 - cool_brush_work
If education was entirely about the accumulation of knowledge, I would be tempted to agree with you. But it is not. It is about the development of wisdom through experience.
It happens to be Grand Prix weekend here in Budapest. And guess what language the thug element was - somewhat incompetently - speaking?
Complain about this comment
#116. At 10:11pm on 01 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work,
You're right about my grandson maybe having a condition as he has been tested for ADD/ADHD type syndromes, but even with that I know of other families where children gain misconceived ideas about eating habits. The Jamie Oliver campaign was good in principle but unfortunately it let the cat out of the bag and many 'bee in the bonnet' teachers used it to further their personal and often wacky ideas about healthy eating. The inspection and control of the lunch box is an example of that, and the inappropriate comments of the committed healthy eating 'expert' teacher can easily upset even the most normal of children as don't forget young children are often in awe of their teacher.
Regarding the Leisure industry, I was meaning the Sports Science as you mentioned in #107 so I confused things a bit. The Horeca part of the Leisure trade does have a lot of jobs but generally they tend to be part time (officially), and often low paid. The formal college Horeca training tends to be very good and covers management and/or restaurant skills but it is hard work as I ran a pub in Belgium for a while and met many catering professionals and students.
Regarding my daughter who was educated here in Belgium, she left school as a qualified book keeper which gave her access to a number of professions, including being able to be an Independent. In Belgium there is little you can do unless you have 'access to the profession', e.g in my pub I could not cook anything other than petite restauration (pasta's, pizza's etc) even though I am a good cook. On leaving school my daughter took over a convenience store and ran that for some years, but I doubt a UK school leaver would have had the business training to do that, they would have had to attend college or university to discover VAT, accounting and legislation.
As for quality of education it's true that it's very hard to judge achievements, but my own feelings on this are that during Nu-Labour's 13 years the exam results went through the roof whilst complaints from business leaders about the literacy and numeracy of job candidates also went through the roof. Something is therefore very wrong as if the exams test quality and there was general illiteracy and innumeracy the exams were failing. The comments of Menedemus in #110 about teaching being increasing geared to exam passing rather that the understanding of the subject reflects my impression as well. During my long IT career (before my pub) I sometimes had new graduates who I had to mentor, and some were great on the theory but had never grasped the application of their knowledge in a business world despite having high level degrees. Exams should test both theory and application and the new "functional skills" paper Menedemus mentions is a step in the right direction for Secondary schools.
PS. no offence taken and enjoy Finland
Complain about this comment
#123 - Buzet23
When you get to my age, the academic qualifications you acquired way back are unlikely to be relevant and certainly not current. I rely entirely on a decent portfolio and the ability to communicate at all required levels. And, surprise, surprise - it works. I don't advertise but people still come to me and what do they ask? Can you do it? Nobody ever asks for the certs on the wall . . which is just as well since they would be meaningless in the context od what I do now.
Complain about this comment
finanzioni;
"There will come a day when highly-indebted Britons shall regret their not having the Euro. If you count all debt, not just government debt, then Britain is possibly worse off than Greece (just see the BBC or The Economist coverage for the data)."
It won't have mattered. By the time Britain goes into default, the Germans will have spent all of their money bailing out the rest of Europe. There wouldn't have been any left over to bail out Britain byt them. Small wonder they're hoping Turkey will be allowed to enter just in the nick of time to rescue them.
Complain about this comment
threnodious;
"So long as we stop turning out bus drivers with PhDs."
So long as Europe's economy is based on thinly disguised socialism and investment is chased elsewhere, that's the only jobs PhDs. Can get.
I assume your assessment of the worthlessness of a University degree from a European school of higher education is based on first hand knowledge gained from judging your own.
Complain about this comment
cbw;
"the Leisure Industry is teeming with Jobs"
Yes like chambermaid, porter, bellhop, desk clerk, pool maintenance man, lawn care/grass cutter, short order cook, sandwich maker, cake decorator. These are the kind of jobs we either give to kids who want to earn a few extra bucks for the summer or to illegal aliens who work for even less. Lots of jobs at that level and you don't need a college education for them, in fact you don't need any education for many of them. So when do you start?
Complain about this comment
" British men dressed as nuns stand trial in Crete
Seventeen British men stood trial dressed in nun's habits on the Greek island of Crete for flashing their bottoms in public, but walked free after no one showed up to testify their behavior was offensive."
Most likely because all witnesses were on strike.
Like practically everyone else.
[Some peoples seem to believe that continuous strikes are the best way to improve their living standards and reduce their debts]
Complain about this comment
MAscaridII
Re !"7
It is a fair point that many of the basic jobs in the Leisure Industry do not require much education.
However, people start at that level & if so inclined, work their way up by continuing training/courses (ability to read, write & do math is required); others get hired at mid-management as trainees with specific roles to undertake (they have school-based certificates in specific related areas with good grades); senior managers/trainers etc. in any such profession are in-place because of their expertise established by long experience and/or superior qualifications.
UK/England education it seems to me provides employee-entrants at all those levels.
I cannot say what occurs in the USA: Though You were gainfully employed at some stage so I suppose some sort of education does take place among the masses!
I guess on that basis You & I will be putting on our Ronald MacD costumes and entertaining the under-7s again this summer!
Cheers.
Complain about this comment
Threnodio;
You are an optimistic man. I don't spend time on telling blind people what colours are.
Complain about this comment
cool-brush-work @#120
First of all I was not trying to compare the English educational system with elsewhere within Europe as it really is facile to do that. Either the English educational system is 'fit for purpose' or it is a fail. It matters not whether it compares with education in other European nations unless the comparison is to improve the quality of education in England & Wales.
As an aside, I used "British" once so it was hardly fair to allude to my criticisms being UK-wide as, for the most part, my comment at #110 stated my discourse was about education in England or teaching of the majority of British students (90+ per cent who are learning within England!)
That having been said, all is not well with education in other parts of the British Isles! Please have a look at this link: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/full-list-of-northern-irelands-failing-schools-14808838.html
But I digress.
I am astonished at the way you accept the figures I provided you (as you requested previously as a put up or shut up!).
Your response was, "...I actually do not find those figures too concerning..." which I consider apathetic and if that apathy were to reflect how the English & Welsh Educationalists approach to how England & Wales educates the English and Welsh youth that should not be acceptable.
First of all I wrote, "1,500 teachers who finished their postgraduate certificate of education (PGCE) course in 2007 had to sit the numeracy course at least three times. A total of 856 had to take the literacy test three times and 679 the ICT. These figures include some teachers who had to take one or other of the tests 10 times. One teacher sat the numeracy test 15 times before passing." and that level of innumeracy and illiteracy I 'actually' find incredibly alarming!
Well over half the candidate teachers tested were found to be innumerate for goodness sake and had to resit the test 3 times before they passed in most cases but up to 10 times and even 15 times in one case!
You also wrote,” ... Furthermore, since when did failing once become a knock-out blow in educational terms at any level - - are not 'Resits' all part of the technique of developing & rewarding those that aspire?” At least practice made perfect in the case of those candidate teachers who failed the literacy test. By the time they had taken the test 10 times they must have been able to recite the test questions word for word and with great eloquence!
How about that for teaching to pass the test and not teaching to think?
ROTFLMBO
I was able to find some example questions that the candidate trainee teachers have been asked in previous literacy and numeracy tests:
1 It will not be ... to sit half-term tests this year
(a) neccessary
(b) necesary
(c) necessary
(d) neccesary
2 The new ... will be ready next term
(a) acommodation.
(b) accommodation.
(c) accomodation.
(e) acomodation.
3 Two-fifths of a class of 25 pupils were girls. What percentage were boys?
4 It is possible to seat 40 people in a row across the hall. How many rows are needed to seat 432 people?
Answers: 1.necessary. 2. accommodation. 3. Sixty per cent. 4. Eleven bit
None of the questions are really that taxing to someone educated in England pre-1980 but they answers are apparently illusive to over half of all candidate teachers for England & Wales in more current times ... I am worried and so should everybody who has children in school within England & Wales.
For me the problem with the inadequate skills of the candidate teachers is what on Earth does that tell us about the quality of the education those potential teachers had received as they example the output of candidates for many other professions within England & Wales let alone the rest of the World. If the England educational system produces teachers who are illiterate and innumerate then what does that imply for English & Welsh educated (not!) applicants for other walks of life?
The quality of the candidate teachers who have been found to be illiterate and innumerate exemplifies all too succinctly that failure of education in England & Wales to provide good education for our youth.
I entirely agree Education is a large subject and open to being an intractable debate but I do think that we cannot just wait to see if England & Wales education is working or not as education of our youth is something that has to be "right first time". We cannot re-educate the uneducated and if the England & Wales educational system has failed, then it has failed since the 1980s and that is two generations of pupils and students who will have potentially been ill-served by politicians, educationalists, teachers of England & Wales and the poor quality of the education of the pupils and students within their charge ill-serves all of us.
Complain about this comment
#124. At 11:31pm on 01 Aug 2010, threnodio_II,
Quite so, that reflects my own experience as I have never once been asked to show evidence of the bits of paper I have claimed on my cv, my clients were always only interested in my experience and what I could do for them. Bits of paper and training courses attended were skipped over.
There is also a trick that many EU country's are engaged in to make it difficult for migrants to find jobs in their area of qualification and experience, they claim a qualification is unknown to them and demand full details of the course material studied and times spent. Since many have a bit of paper some decades old that information is often impossible to recover as I found with a HNC. The EU are 'trying' to help this with harmonisation, they claim, but we all know how active they are in enforcement. I hit this when creating a form of limited company here in Belgium and were blocked on the qualification front but could do it on experience because I'd had a limited company in the UK.
I also noted on the form asking for full details of my HNC that were I an asylum seeker or refugee then no proof was necessary, so if I'd been one I could have claimed to have a masters degree in mathematics from a Bombay university and they would have had to accept it.
Complain about this comment
128. At 05:13am on 02 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Most likely because all witnesses were on strike.
Like practically everyone else.
[Some peoples seem to believe that continuous strikes are the best way to improve their living standards and reduce their debts]"
You seem to spend a considerable proportion of your time here denigrating the Greeks. Threads stretching back weeks are filled with your mindless drivel. Perhaps you're on strike yourself?
Complain about this comment
#131. At 09:22am on 02 Aug 2010, Menedemus, and CBW,
I have held an opinion for some years that the education of our children has become an industry and like all industries it tries to expand. The poor quality of the early primary and Secondary education has made the need to undertake further education a must as it is now being relied upon to do what should have been done between the ages of 5 and 18, as well as providing higher level education.
Thankfully most teachers/lecturers in further education have been professionals in their subject as well as teachers, as is shown by a couple of my friends who are senior lecturers (Dr's etc). The ability of the lecturers in further education does not however dismiss the fact that education between the ages of 5 and 18 is often abysmal, and it also does not take into the account of why a young adult should lose at least three extra years of their working career in gaining knowledge that should have been imparted between 5 and 18.
I suspect that whilst there are many committed 'good' teachers, there are also many just playing the system, doing the minimum, going on training courses all the time, organising political protests, and counting the money they get whilst badly performing. The UK does not owe teachers a living I'm afraid, they are like everybody obliged to do their job and if they are themselves illiterate and innumerate then they should not be teachers as the effect is logarithmic. They will achieve that Socialist dream of the further dumbing down of children each successive generation.
Complain about this comment
128 powermeerkat
For your information (only because you are from USA and it's hard for you to know how civil rights works as well as i don't know if they already mention that to your inferior American public schools)...it's not Greek air strikes and worldwide bombings...it's not bowling Strikes...it's not Strike price...it's not Lightning strike etc...
...there are strikes used to put pressure on governments to change policies...
Complain about this comment
112.Finanzo wrote: Granted, more fiscal discipline is needed in the Eurozone.
Time for the corrupt southern European countries to stop being so corrupt, stop placing thousands of 'political friends' on the public payroll in meaningless/nonexistent jobs. And of course, stop paying ludicrous salaries to bureaucrats with 'simple' jobs.
There, the Germans have a point, even though they showed a conspicuous lack of leadership in the recent crisis.
Are you another one of those folks who say 'how dare the Germans not fork over the money the EU demanded without questioning why'?
Leadership would have been to tell Brussels to get stuffed. Leadership has nothing to do with listening to a consensus of corrupt countries who want others to pay for their deficits. The undemocratic EU is busy trying to seize control of fiscal matters, and this must be stopped at all and any cost. I am not going to pay EU income taxes, and Barroso and Rompuy are still unelected, illegitimate and without a mandate.
There will come a day when highly-indebted Britons shall regret their not having the Euro.
They would be worse off if they were in the 'one interest rate fits all' Euro. The unelected Eurocrats want to try and make Frankfurt the financial centre, undermining London at every chance they get.
Tell me, why do you seem to love the undemocratic EU and the worthless Euro so much? In my country Netherlands, most want to get rid of the Euro since we didn't benefit at al, we are sick of funding corrupt Italians and Greeks.
Complain about this comment
The BBC is squarely and fairly anti-Europe. The bias of analysts such as the writer of this post is so blatant as to defy belief. The entire issue borders on propaganda, in my opinion. For example, the euro "falls" and the dollar "re-adjusts". The future of the euro is in danger "since none of the euro's basic problems... have been addressed" while the future of the pound or the dollar, for example, are never in danger because of the same issues.
Why is the US economy so much better than the European economy? And why is the US model the one we should be following? With all respect for the USA, the European people have indicated time and again that they DO NOT WANT to become more like the US. Is the economy a framework in which nations should live simply accepting its rules or is the economy a tool in the hands of nations to increase their prosperity?
Excuse me Mr. Hewitt, but I have read your "criticism" of Europe so often and every time I get the impression that you are becoming even more irrelevant to the core of the matters concerning European politics and European integration. Unfortunately, I increasingly get the impression that the BBC specifically but also the UK in general are becoming irrelevant to the European integration. This is a pity.
Many years ago, I had grown used to expecting objectivity and sound journalism from the BBC but it appears that even the BBC is not immune to the rabid anti-europeanism that slowly engulfs most aspects of British society.
Most Europeans (me included) will always see Britain as an inseparable piece of Europe. I am getting all the more convinced, however, that the Britons seem to think otherwise.
I sincerely hope that the tide will turn.
Complain about this comment
#136. At 12:23pm on 02 Aug 2010, mvr512,
I've wondered for some time if there is a link between the problems in the Euro since the Dutchman Wim Duisenberg relinquished presidency of the ECB and the Frenchman Jean-Claude Trichet took over. After all in the initial stitch up of the Euro, Germany got the location of the ECB and France the presidency, unfortunately for Trichet he was under investigation and had to wait until the usual happened and the charges could not be proved. When you add up the fact that almost no country's had the right to join the Euro since they did not meet the convergence criteria which has continued even until now, and the stitch up regarding where the ECB was placed and how Chirac's friend would be the president the Euro had the deck stacked against it from the beginning.
What amazes me is that there are still many in mainland Europe that ask why the UK has not joined the Euro, it would be akin to being rescued by the titanic whilst it was sinking.
Complain about this comment
@137
The previous writer was much more pro-EU. I assume the slightly more 'Eurosceptic' Gavin was put in place as a response to the fact the BBC's readers mostly lean to the sceptical side.
That's not to say he is Anti-EU, he seems relatively fair.
Complain about this comment
@136
Barosso is as elected as Cameron.
Complain about this comment
#140. At 1:14pm on 02 Aug 2010, Benefactor,
Just how do you come to that conclusion, Cameron stood for election as an MP and as leader of the Conservative party, José Manuel Durão Barosso
President of the European Commission, has never stood in an European election for president, he is an appointee of the unelected European Commission who are themselves appointees. Only the European Parliament is elected and only it's leader Jerzy Buzek can rightly be claimed to be as elected as Cameron, Barosso never, Herman Van Rompuy never.
137. At 12:47pm on 02 Aug 2010, Nick_Bo,
To a communist everybody to the right of them is a fascist, likewise to a pro current direction EU fanatic everybody not sharing their idea of a perfect EU is anti-EU, your comment suggest you fit that bill, as it's clear you can entertain no other EU direction than the current failing one, and that all criticism is wrong. We pro-EU people would like to see a different EU where freedom and democracy are prevalent and nation states are not regarded as a nuisance to the great plan.
Complain about this comment
Buzzard;
"We pro-EU people would like to see a different EU where freedom and democracy are prevalent and nation states are not regarded as a nuisance to the great plan."
That would not be the Europe I've come to know. Nope, not in them. Not in their nature.
Complain about this comment
"...there are strikes used to put pressure on governments to change policies..."
I understand. To force governments to uphold unsustainable deficits, to to subsidize unproductive state enterprizes, to maintain useless bureaucrautic apparatchiks en mass, to accept monopolistic practices of entrenched communist/socialist labor unions, etc. - right?
And when strikers are on strike a country's GDP grows and as a result governments have more money to spend on all welfare schemes?
Did I get it right this time or should I reread "Das Kapital" once more?
Complain about this comment
143 powermeerkat
To force governments to uphold sustainable deficits, to subsidize productive state enterprises, to maintain useful bureaucratic apparatus, to accept or maintain social welfare in education, health insurance and avoid speculation on human rights like for example the right to water etc. - that is right
...and most of all to force this today Bilderbeg and Masonic political clan...to be the first to pay for their scandals, their EU capitalistic greediness as well as for the whole IMF mess.
"...Did I get it right this time or should I reread "Das Kapital" once more?..."
Don't need to read anything in order to understand that...and in your case...good news...don't even need to be smart enough to understand it.
Complain about this comment
Re 61. At 10:25pm on 30 Jul 2010, Menedemus wrote:
Thank you for the clear explanations of how the Euro works. With some exceptions, it seems we agree on many facts, except on the language to phrase them.
While you keep on pounding on the "Euro Crisis", I think we should be more appropriately talking about a "Greek crisis". Which, incidentally would prevent clichés and the lumping of countries in various grouping with animal-sounding acronyms. Frankly, the problems afflicting Greece, Spain and Ireland, while all related to the global financial crisis, are quite different. Also, as you rightly point out the "Euro crisis" is purely political: it is about deciding where a nation-state ends and where a supranational polity starts. Since the Eurozone is a first in modern monetary history, I expect this issue to be debated and adjusted in the foreseeable future; but the fact is that Germany, France, Italy and Spain are not going to sink.
Yes, some figures you read daily about Italy and Spain are scary, but if you compare them to their analogues in Japan, USA and the UK, you agree that while these are clear symptoms of an economical malaise, they are not the end of the world. In fact, the Eurozone has its currently underperforming members but also the overperforming ones. It is not a coincidence that David Cameron was asked by his advisors to tone down his anti-EU rhetoric and William Hague goes around singing the virtues of a united Europe. It may soon be the case that the UK will need the assistance of those it's been criticising so harshly.
What you call a "flaw" of the Euro I would rather call a "weakness". A flaw in something being a defect that prevents that thing from functioning, given that the Euro, in spite of the doomsaying, is still up and running the world's second largest economy. You may still be in the camp of those who believe in the imminent collapse of the Greek economy (and thus the sinking of the Euro) but until this actually becomes a fact, rather than a figment of the euroskeptic imaginative propaganda, I don't think we can detect a flaw.
On the other hand, I agree with many of your remarks regarding the ECB and sovereignty.
One remark about "quantitative easing" though: while this is clearly a deflationary mechanism that can be used in times of crisis, the end result is a higher volume of liquidity which inevitably leads to the depreciation of money. It may work wonders in economies where many households and consumers are indebted, in order to spur spending, but the Eurozone biggest members: Germany, France and Italy are notorious for being a country of savers shying from the so-called "American" model (which the UK seems to be more prone to follow).
If Greece was free to inject money in its market right now, I think it would be only postponing pain and eventually detaching its economy from the bulk of the continent. Devaluation would make its exports (tourism, shipping, food) more competitive in a very short-run, but it would find itself at a disadvantage with the imports (machinery, electronics).
On the other hand the crisis exposes clear weaknesses (flaws?) in the Greek economy. Unlike what you write, all Eurozone governments, including the Germans, knew all along that Greek had a wide socio-economical gap to bridge in order to join the "mainstream" Eurozoners, but the PASOK first and then Nea Demokratia kept on pushing politically in Brussels to avoid upsetting the "privileged" classes. Now that push comes to shove, and there is nothing to anymore than clean up the house, the Greeks will have to do it.
I don't quite understand what people mean with statements such as the "EU is undemocratic". This is ok during election campaigns, but if you think about it is a sentence devoid of any meaning. Democracy is not a yes/no quality. There are various degrees of democracy. Clearly you can't quantify, but you can compare. The EU is undemocratic compared to each single member state, which are arguably among the most democratic countries in the world. The issue is that if we want a political entity to be more democratic, it needs to have more importance (and to be perceived important) in people's lives. The EU as we know it may have many indirect consequences in its citizens lives, but not direct enough as to be perceived important. The bottom line is that if you want the EU to become more "democratic", it is inevitable that part of the executive power (sovereignty, in other words) pass from the member state's capitals to the EU commission.
Only then will people want to participate more. In simple words, the only way I see to make the EU more democratic, is to transfer some of the member state's democracy to it.
The problem is that most politicians (even in Germany, which is the most pro-EU member, in spite of some recent doubts) will oppose this, as they would not feel comfortable on the EU arena.
Complain about this comment
@138,
Do you go often to Europe? What many European are asking is not why don't we join the Euro but why are we still in the EU... Valid question by the way.
Complain about this comment
PM: "...Did I get it right this time or should I reread "Das Kapital" once more?..."
E: "Don't need to read anything in order to understand that...and in your case...good news...don't even need to be smart enough to understand it."
Indeed, one doesn't have to be smart to understand "Das Kapital" demagogy.
Just like people didn't need to be smart to subscribe to a demagogy
of "Mein Kampf".
[International Socialism and National Socialism being simply two sides of the same worthless coin.]
Complain about this comment
While you [Menedemus] keep on pounding on the "Euro Crisis", I think we should be more appropriately talking about a "Greek crisis".
I recall that half a dozen posts back someone jumped to the defence of Jose Manuel Barroso.
Isn't this EUSSR aparatchik a former premier of a country (Portugal) which is third in line to a default?
[After Greece and Spain]
Complain about this comment
"I don't quite understand what people mean with statements such as the "EU is undemocratic". This is ok during election campaigns, but if you think about it is a sentence devoid of any meaning. Democracy is not a yes/no quality. There are various degrees of democracy."
Like in China and Russia.
And of course one can get only half-pregnant.
Complain about this comment
Re 137. At 12:47pm on 02 Aug 2010, Nick_Bo wrote:
"I am getting all the more convinced, however, that the Britons seem to think otherwise."
I've lived in England since 2004 and I can see around me that more and more people are in fact pro-EU, while most Britons in fact are quite neutral on the EU issue.
It is not the impression you get from media outlets though, but don't be fooled that the journalist's view is that of the people.
What's funny with "democracy" is that politicians are elected, but journalists are not. And those who shape public opinion are usually the latter. So the views of journalists seldom reflect those of the people, but they do influence those who read them.
Thus they (the journalists) must reflect the views of those who give them their jobs. Therefore someone working for the Telegraph, or Sky, is much more likely to have a pro-Murdoch stance than not. The BBC is a publicly funded outlet over which the government has great control and, especially after the Hutton enquiry and its results, anyone working for it has to be careful about criticising the government.
On the other hand the EU does not fund any far-reaching media such as the BBC. So criticising it is much easier. That is why it is much more criticised.
Furthermore, don't forget that in Britain the electoral system is such that the person "representing" the people is in fact elected by a minority. So even a prime minister's opinion will generally not reflect the view of the people. Britain is much more open-minded and welcoming than the bulk of its politicians and journalists would want you to believe.
Complain about this comment
"On the other hand the EU does not fund any far-reaching media such as the BBC."
But it still has well funded internationally broadcasting media of Paris-Berlin Axis: France24 and Deutche Welle.
[Personally, I'd rather watch al-Jazeera. Or RT.]
Complain about this comment
lacerniagigante @#145
I accept that in past recessions when demand fades away and output drops the usual impact of increasing money supply side is that the economy returns to more normal demand and output but then, as the economy in awash with extra money, demand usually outgrows output and inflation occurs. In the case of the USA and the UK their Central Banks, i.e. the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England can independently set a Central Bank Rate that induces growth or deflates inflation.
In a past recessions, not being able to increase the money supply side actually might have been a good thing for the Eurozone.
However, because this global recession is created by the creation of a debt bubble, what has actually happened is that the banks found they did not have the capital set-aside to meet their interbanking debts and much of the American and United Kingdom Bank debt-to-other-banks was subsidised by firstly the injection of huge amounts of Government Funding and then Quantitive Easing was created to bolster the banks capital needs and prevent their economies from going inot a tailspin where serious deflation was likely to occur.
On the European side, less of the European Banks were exposed to the toxic debts of the USA but nevertheless some EU Nations had to bolster their own banking sectors and the global recession was alleviated by those nations taking very similar steps to that of the USA and UK when much government funding was injected into their own banks. Not many European Banks were completely immune from the US Toxic Debt arising from the Sub-prime Debts being spread far and wide through banker’s greed and the almost criminal belief that bad debt can create good revenue.
On the other hand, the "Greek Crisis" (as you like to call it) is specifically caused by the Greek Economy having become indebted due to borrowing and doing so on the falsification of the economic statistics for Greek output and growth, (in other words, Greece cooked the books and was able to borrow beyond its means to repay). The problem of Greece having debts in excess of potential income and probably having to default and seek restructuring the Greek Debt has not gone away.
Unfortunately, the problems faced by Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal of sovereign debt exceeding capacity to pay is also a continuing problem and although there is no suggestion of Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal having 'cooked the books' those countries do have a serious problem with management of their sovereign debts as their GNP is so much less than their borrowings which grow with the cost of interest charges.
My suspicion is that some countries have embarked on austerity to reduce their outgoing so as to increase the available funds for debt repayment and recover the vast amount of public money that has been injected into the European Banking Sector but other countries have either not yet seriously embarked on reducing government spending or, perhaps worse still, have left it too late and that when the International Financiers and Banks seek their interest payments and/or debt redemption some of the other 4 PIIGS nations will also be at risk of declaring themselves unable to make repayment and seek debt restructuring.
The root cause of the problem of shortage of funds in Europe IS nations borrowing far in excess of their income - usually monies spent directly on funding the European Standard of Living to which all Europeans have grown accustomed (for the most part) but the real flaw in the Eurozone is that there is no political will, as yet, to agree that one or more nations will sacrifice their prosperity to save the less well off nations by sacrificing sovereign fiscal control to Frankfurt or wherever and have Centralised Interest Rates set so as to induce growth or reduce inflation should it occur.
Yes they have funded a central fund for Greece to tap into to help with sovereign debt repayments but Greece has already tapped that fund and there is little left if, for example, Spain or Portugal seek help from their Eurozone partners. The IMF is there but any further separate help for any of the other Eurozone Nations is going to cause massive ructions as (a) the existing austerity measures will be made tougher by IMF requirements and (b) each failing Eurozone nation will be under enormous pressure to either leave the Euro voluntarily or be forced out by Germany who always wanted the Eurozone to be smaller and more fit for centralised control – preferably German control I have no doubt!
Complain about this comment
@69. Mathiasen
"...The educated and enlightened European audience can find the reason in the "serious European newspapers..."
Mhh that would presumably mean those that read exclusively left-leaning papers (Die Zeit, El Pais, La Repubblica, Le monde, etc.). Yes, those same enlightened and educated people that condoned the openly racist overtones of some articles about Greece printed by some German newspapers and weekly mags just a few weeks ago.
Those champions of democracy that vote center/left and can only accept their point of view. Those same people that are the reason Americans cringe when they hear the word "socialism".
You must be German...and vote center/left.
Complain about this comment
147 powermeerkat
"...Indeed, one doesn't have to be smart to understand "Das Kapital" demagogy.
Just like people didn't need to be smart to subscribe to a demagogy
of "Mein Kampf"..."
You forgot to add to the last ones some other demagogies...
- one doesn't have to be smart to understand "Corporation & Capitalistic" demagogy.
- one doesn't have to be smart to understand "Journalism" demagogy.
Let's take a small example of those techniques:
Examining the four newspapers with the highest daily circulation in the country, we found a significant and sudden shift in how newspapers characterized waterboarding. From the early 1930s until the modern story broke in 2004, the newspapers that covered waterboarding almost uniformly called the practice torture or implied it was torture: The New York Times characterized it thus in 81.5% (44 of 54) of articles on the subject and The Los Angeles Times did so in 96.3% of articles (26 of 27).
By contrast, from 2002-2008, the studied newspapers almost never referred to waterboarding as torture. The New York Times called waterboarding torture or implied it was torture in just 2 of 143 articles (1.4%). The Los Angeles Times did so in 4.8% of articles (3 of 63). The Wall Street Journal characterized the practice as torture in just 1 of 63 articles (1.6%). USA Today never called waterboarding torture or implied it was torture.
In addition, the newspapers are much more likely to call waterboarding torture if a country other than the United States is the perpetrator. In The New York Times, 85.8% of articles (28 of 33) that dealt with a country other than the United States using waterboarding called it torture or implied it was torture while only 7.69% (16 of 208) did so when the United States was responsible. The Los Angeles Times characterized the practice as torture in 91.3% of articles (21 of 23) when another country was the violator, but in only 11.4% of articles (9 of 79) when the United States was the perpetrator.
So the NYT went from calling waterboarding torture 81.5 percent of the time to calling it such 1.4 percent of the time. Had the technique changed? No. Only the government implementing torture and committing war crimes changed. If the US does it, it's not torture.
Complain about this comment
#153. At 7:21pm on 02 Aug 2010, ridoca
Your assumption that certain media not least in Italy refrain from writing anything about the minister president that can be called information is probably correct. The only surprise is that BBC is positioning itself not far away for such media.
What you hardly know, but what BBC ought to know, is that articles from La Republica have been quoted in other European newspapers. When I referred the content, I was censored. :-)
However, I don’t suppose you will deny that Dell’Utri was convicted, right?
Complain about this comment
69. Mathiasen
"...The educated and enlightened European audience can find the reason in the "serious European newspapers..."
Mhh that would presumably mean those that read exclusively left-leaning papers (Die Zeit, El Pais, La Repubblica, Le monde, etc.).
PM: What's wrong with "Morning Star", "Izvestya" and "L'Humanite"? :-)))
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROLETARIANS OF THE WHOLE WORLD - UNITE!
Complain about this comment
http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/?p=6767
A brilliant synopsis of exactly how I feel about the EU snd why the UK cannot extract itself from the organisation unless there is another Referendum within the UK that overturns the 1975 UK Referendum result.
Complain about this comment
"...However, I don’t suppose you will deny that Dell’Utri was convicted, right?..."
Marcello Dell'Utri is first a Palermitanian and second an Italian politician...if you know what i mean...and he was never convicted in Palermo.
Case closed :)
Complain about this comment
#158. At 8:43pm on 02 Aug 2010, Ellinas
Well said, Ellinas, and if anybody wants to know more there are plenty of media, where you can find the information.
Complain about this comment
#157 - Menedemus
Well precisely but . . .
". . . because we have had a succession of Parliaments with Euroenthusiast majorities, chosen for whatever reason by the British electorate".
Which tells you what?
Either that the British electorate are far less Eurosceptic than Mr. Redwood thinks or that EU membership is way down the list of priorities when the British people choose their parliaments. So they may be pro or they may be indifferent but there is no concrete evidence that they are anti.
Complain about this comment
#146. At 6:01pm on 02 Aug 2010, Bob Kenyon,
You could not be more wrong, read my past contributions and you'll realise I've lived in Belgium for 20 years and have spent a lot of time elsewhere during that.
I repeat "What amazes me is that there are still many in mainland Europe that ask why the UK has not joined the Euro, it would be akin to being rescued by the titanic whilst it was sinking."
There are many over here that are questioning the great dream of the unelected EU politicians, but the people over here who question why the UK is still in the EU are the gullible who have yet to understand how much the UK (and especially Germany) contributes to their beloved Socialist dream of a controlled subservient EU. If the UK leaves the other net payers will be quite frankly desperate as their contributions go up, but yes their are many gullible fools around who think the EU can survive without the net payers. Once one net payer goes do you have so little understanding of the others that you think they won't leave pretty quickly afterwards?
Complain about this comment
threnodio_II @#160
It is merely my opinion (as the only true test of the wishes of THE Demos of the United Kingdom would be to hold a Referendum) but I believe that the general electorate of the UK are, generally speaking, apathetic as to whether the UK should remain in or leave the EU. They could be persuaded either way I suspect.
John is merely writing follow-on from his previous Blog Entry which clearly raised hackles. The implication is that John is pro-market, pro-return of some sovereign powers and very much for a Referendum to put the outstanding matter of whether THE general electorate democratically wish the UK to remain in or leave the UK. Like me, John is happy to abide by the majority vote were such a referendum held because he is a democratic politician.
In respect of those personal preferences, I entirely concur with John.
Unless the introduction of AV+ seriously changes things in the UK regarding Westminster Parliamentary majorities, the relationship of the UK towards the EU will continue to wobble between the breakable promises of the Labour Party and the manifesto-based loose engagement of the UK with the EU always promised by the Tories.
It remains frustrating that there will not be a UK referendum to actually test the opinion of the people of the UK but, being pragmatic, I consider it highly unlikely that the people of the UK will get a specific referendum (at any time within the foreseeable future) on UK membership of the EU.
This is so whichever party is elected to govern from Westminster because the viable-to-achieve-Majority political parties never really do have many manifesto pledges regarding the EU and even if they do, as with the current government, the reality of post-election power eliminates the need to ask the electorate their opinion of membership of the EU or direction of the political relationship between the Westminster Parliament and the EU or they can simply renege on EU-related manifesto pledges as the last Labour government did - if it so suits.
Complain about this comment
#162 - Menedemus
I don't disagree with you.
I just think that the whole debate is being sustained by vocal minorities on either side of the debate who simply do not get it. The vast majority of British electors are more or less indifferent to the whole question and vote as they do for quite different reasons.
My guess would be that the status quo will continue more or less indefinitely because the political classes simply do not have the bottle to address the issue head on. It seems to me that maintaining the status quo on a question with such far reaching consequences simply on the basis of voter apathy is ducking the issue. You know my views on the EU and I need not rehearse them again but I also think this is not going to go away until the question is put even if it means metaphorically dragging the people kick and screaming into the voting booths. I just want it decided once and for all.
Complain about this comment
powermeerkat wrote:
""I don't quite understand what people mean with statements such as the "EU is undemocratic". This is ok during election campaigns, but if you think about it is a sentence devoid of any meaning. Democracy is not a yes/no quality. There are various degrees of democracy."
Like in China and Russia.
And of course one can get only half-pregnant."
I admit, I cannot work out if pm is being funny here. Unfortunately, I don't think he is.
I'm no communist by any stretch, but if pm has read Das Kapital then I am a teapot.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Brits need to put an end to their incessant moaning about Europe (thanks, BBC) and decide once and for all whether they're in or out. That means a referendum, certainly, but on full EU membership – no "chèque britannique", no opt-outs and no more delusions of British (English) exceptionalism.
Complain about this comment
ThrenodioII, Menedemus et al
I also agree the issue of UK/England membership is crying out for some sort of resolution via the Ballot box.
I also agree our pusillanimous political elite, buoyed-up by their vested interests in the EU for advancement ('big-Government') or simple greed ('big-Business') are unlikely to ever offer such an opportunity.
However, where I disagree is I believe the UK/England 'politician' also has a sixth sense that what You portray as ambivalence toward the issue among Britons is actually a deep-seated dislike covered by the traditional forebearance of the British who do not 'take-to-the-streets' at the drop of a hat, unlike their French etc. counterparts (it was Boneparte called Britons a 'nation of shop-keepers' and it is often misunderstood - - he was implying the 'purse/wallet' took preference over political interest, i.e. British domestic & foreign commercial interests were paramount): IMO not so very much has changed in the British character - - for so long as the UK/England continues to enjoy relative economic stability the 'streets' are left to those 'vocal minorities' with a bee-in-their-bonnet whether EU, Iraq, Student Grants, Gay Pride etc.
Politically, this is a very dangerous situation: If ever the UK/England populace do become sufficiently aroused about the EU in my mind there is no question the political elite that have shown such contempt for the Citizens will suffer grievous consequences along with continental EUrope.
When, and it is not 'if', when the British Citizens do realise how deep has been the erosion of their Civil Liberties during this decade then blood will be shed if the Ballot box remains closed as a method to express their aspirations one way or the other - - for undoubtedly the UK/England Citizenry will be split on this issue - - and EUrope will not escape from the calamitous spread of discontent by those unscrupulous enough to exploit it on the continent.
Apart from which, how could Brussels stand idly by whilst its 2nd/3rd most vital member descends into chaos!? Imagine the reaction were the Gendárme to be called in as part of riot control on UK streets! Those 'powers' already exist for the EU it is just that nobody has grasped the extent to which the EU has supplanted National sovereignty.
All this could & should be avoided: There is ample time & opportunity for a one-and-for-all Referendum on 'membership'. Like You, I believe the issue's result is far from clear - - if all the 'pro'/'anti' facts were plainly & openly placed before the Citizens it could be a very fine line dividing victor & vanquished.
Forget the tabloid scaremongering because those rags are not the centres of influence on people's consciousness that they once were - - British people are good deal more sophisticated than is sometimes given credit; hence the lack of civil disturbance despite the incessant tabloid 'blame the EU' headlines.
British Citiens will want to hear both sides of the argument for they will in the great majority recognise their lives cannot have been blighted by the EU-Brussels so much or else their personal circumstances would be considerably worse than they are.
If only the UK/England 'Political Leadership' had the courage, but as we know all too well, the last Statesman to try to insist on a Referendum (on Maastricht) was Thatcher (whom I loathe) and the 'vested' Party interests on all sides promptly rounded on & had her kicked out rather than allow the Citizens' a voice in their longterm political-social-judicial-economic future!
So, none of us will be holding our breath in anticipation of an announcement that 'Democrqacy' is to be allowed to prevail in the UK/England anytime soon!
PS: Lest You get the impression: I am not one who advocates the path of violence. I believe the arguments can still be won by debate.
However, the supporters of UKIP/BNP & other extremist edges in the UK & EURrope may very well seek an alternative strategy as their one/two-issue politics fails to take hold. Ironically, the anti-Democratic EU-Brussels entity is a sitting duck for such aggressive posturing by a dedicated opposition. It takes little imagimnation to foresee extremists exploit its grandness for much more limited & brutally anti-social concepts.
Complain about this comment
#166. At 08:47am on 03 Aug 2010, MACEDNVS wrote:
"The Brits need to put an end to their incessant moaning about Europe (thanks, BBC) and decide once and for all whether they're in or out. That means a referendum, certainly, but on full EU membership – no "chèque britannique", no opt-outs and no more delusions of British (English) exceptionalism."
I trust you will also be supporting the forcing of the other EU member states to actually implement and adhere to the EU laws they sign up to rather than pick and choose what to abide with and what to ignore. At least an opt-out is official and honest, whereas country's like France have a huge number of complaints against them for non observance of the EU's regulations. A French shrug of the shoulders and "nous sommes Francaise" arrogance should no longer be tolerated if they wish to call themselves members of the EU.
Complain about this comment
@ 168 Buzet23
So, I presume you support giving the EU more power to enforce its directives?
Complain about this comment
168. At 09:16am on 03 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
"I trust you will also be supporting the forcing of the other EU member states to actually implement and adhere to the EU laws they sign up to rather than pick and choose what to abide with and what to ignore."
Absolutely, and there are legal mechanisms in place for that very purpose. Do you accept their jurisdiction, let alone their expansion?
Complain about this comment
141. At 1:45pm on 02 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
"Just how do you come to that conclusion, Cameron stood for election as an MP and as leader of the Conservative party, José Manuel Durão Barosso
President of the European Commission, has never stood in an European election for president. Only the European Parliament is elected and only it's leader Jerzy Buzek can rightly be claimed to be as elected as Cameron, Barosso never, Herman Van Rompuy never."
I come to that conclusion thusly.
The EPP grouping in the EP said, 'Barosso is our guy, we plan to make him EU Commission president if we win'. They won...
(I'm paraphrasing of course.)
Next EP election, all the major groupings (ALDE, Socialists, Greens, etc) plan to put forward a candidate for the post.
Complain about this comment
Benefactor
Re #169
So, is that what You are advocating: Increasing EU authority & power to the extent that it can in all circumstnaces countermand the Elected National Government of any Nation in EUrope?
Why not come out and say it: You believe in a modern, supposedly benign-dictatorship in which democratically elected National Governments have absolutely no authority or power other than to IMPLEMENT the Laws, Rules & Regulations of a supreme unelected authority & power based in Brussels!?
Complain about this comment
#171. At 09:48am on 03 Aug 2010, Benefactor,
"I come to that conclusion thusly.
The EPP grouping in the EP said, 'Barosso is our guy, we plan to make him EU Commission president if we win'. They won..."
Barosso has never been elected as an MEP, he was appointed by the European Council following recommendations from the EPP of the EP and therefore unelected by people of Europe. I repeat you cannot compare an elected Cameron with an unelected Barosso. If an elected MEP of the EPP grouping had been chosen then that would be different but this is not the case.
Complain about this comment
#169. At 09:31am on 03 Aug 2010, Benefactor
#170. At 09:46am on 03 Aug 2010, MACEDNVS,
The power is already there but it is enforced very selectively, there is no point is expanding such power if certain country's like Germany and France are exempt because of their power within the EU. To coin a phrase 'the law is the law', when it becomes selectively enforced it is no longer worth the paper it is written on. A good example was the convergence criteria of the Euro that the ratio of the annual government deficit to gross domestic product (GDP) must not exceed 3% at the end of the preceding fiscal year. If not, it is at least required to reach a level close to 3%. Only exceptional and temporary excesses would be granted for exceptional cases. However, Germany and France were never sanctioned for exceeding that for years even though that was the regulation.
I take the view that if you sign up for an EU law then you obey that law, if you don't agree with it then opt out of the part you do not accept which is what the UK does and which is honest. So further expansion, no, never, until the playing field is level and member states follow the laws they've already agreed.
Complain about this comment
137.Nick_Bo wrote: The BBC is squarely and fairly anti-Europe.
They are nothing of the kind. You'll find the BBC is both pro-Europe AND pro-EU.
For those like you who do not seem to understand, here are the definitions I use when referring to 'Europe' and 'EU' (which are two very different things).
Europe: geographical entity which some believe to be situated between the Urals, Caucasus, Bosporus, Mediterranean and Atlantic.
EU: (undemocratic) political construct designed to limit and eventually eliminate the influence of elected national parliaments (who represent national sovereignty).
Example: MAII is anti-Europe, mvrs512 is anti-EU. There's a difference, OK?
The bias of analysts such as the writer of this post is so blatant as to defy belief.
You mean biased as opposed to the 95% of the media who blindly copied the European Commission's propaganda leaflet about the Lisbon Treaty without bothering to 'fact-check'?
146.Bob Kenyon wrote: What many European are asking is not why don't we join the Euro but why are we still in the EU... Valid question by the way.
We in the Netherlands ask the same question. Why are we (Netherlands) still in the EU? All the EU represents is a hubristic attempt by politicians to 'matter' on the world level, by asking the world things in the name of 'Europe' which (apart from France) they wouldn't dare ask in name of their own country.
(paraphrased after Bismarck)
Complain about this comment
173. At 10:20am on 03 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
"Barosso has never been elected as an MEP, he was appointed by the European Council following recommendations from the EPP of the EP and therefore unelected by people of Europe. I repeat you cannot compare an elected Cameron with an unelected Barosso. If an elected MEP of the EPP grouping had been chosen then that would be different but this is not the case."
.05% of the UK population voted directly for Cameron, a statistically insignificant amount, but everyone knew that by voting for a Conservative MP in your constituency you where lending your support for him to be PM.
The same can be said of Barosso and voting for an EPP-ED MEP.
People voted for a group that said they would make him President, it is the exact same end result as people voting directly to make him President. Your being pedantic.
Complain about this comment
171.Benefactor wrote: Next EP election, all the major groupings (ALDE, Socialists, Greens, etc) plan to put forward a candidate for the post.
I have news for you. This still wouldn't make the process democratic. Not in the least bit.
Where be the demos?
Complain about this comment
174. At 10:34am on 03 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
"I take the view that if you sign up for an EU law then you obey that law, if you don't agree with it then opt out of the part you do not accept which is what the UK does and which is honest."
Wouldn't it be more honest to leave altogether? Why be part of a Union for which you have nothing but contempt?
Complain about this comment
#176. At 11:24am on 03 Aug 2010, Benefactor,
"People voted for a group that said they would make him President, it is the exact same end result as people voting directly to make him President. Your being pedantic."
In all European elections the population voted for a party from their own region, they did not vote for the grouping of party's from different nations that forms once the votes have been cast and the MEP's known. The various groupings have no true status and their only advantage is that they gain funds by nature of their size, they do not set a manifesto before an election as they are not a party in their own right. Indeed the Conservative party of the UK left the EPP grouping on the grounds that it's constituent party's were too federal in thinking.
Therefore I'm not in the least being pedantic by saying people voted for a candidate from a party standing in their own region and the parliamental groupings were nothing to do with that vote.
Complain about this comment
178.MACEDNVS wrote: Wouldn't it be more honest to leave altogether? Why be part of a Union for which you have nothing but contempt?
Why be part of a 'union' which has nothing but contempt for democracy, referendums and what the people want?
Why be part of a 'union' in which more than a dozen countries seem to think they are 'entitled' to another country's money?
Why be part of a 'union' which is on a road to nowhere but those that are in 'control' refuse to even contemplate an alternative path because they declare a 1957 document to be 'holy'?
Why be part of a 'union' when all you get is France demanding all major policies have to benefit France otherwise they'll throw a temper tantrum?
Complain about this comment
#178. At 11:58am on 03 Aug 2010, MACEDNVS,
There we differ, since to me the member states showing contempt are those that sign up for laws they have no intention of implementing and abiding with. The country's showing contempt are those with the most number of complaints before the ECJ for transgressions against EU rules e.g. France. You should be asking France to leave rather than a country that does follow what they've agreed.
Complain about this comment
#178 "Why be part of a Union for which you have nothing but contempt?"
The UK does not have contempt for that part of the union it signed up to and the people agreed on...a free trade area.
You want to keep changing the rules of the club and we do not agree with those changes. Nothing wrong with that... unless you are EU fanatic who sees a different view as heresy.
Complain about this comment
179. At 11:58am on 03 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
"In all European elections the population voted for a party from their own region, they did not vote for the grouping of party's from different nations that forms once the votes have been cast and the MEP's known. [snip]
Therefore I'm not in the least being pedantic by saying people voted for a candidate from a party standing in their own region and the parliamental groupings were nothing to do with that vote."
I voted for the Liberals knowing full well that they where part of the ALDE grouping, I knew I was basically voting for the ALDE and I wouldn't vote for the Liberals again if they left the ALDE. Also the EP elections must use a form of PR, the UK (except NI) for instance uses a closed list system, so no one from the British mainland voted for a candidate at all.
(well, I suppose someone could have found all the lists, and then voted based who they like best from the top of each one...but thats even less likely than someone voting based on an EP grouping isn't it.)
Anyway, so basically I voted for a grouping... that means your wrong. You can be all pedantic about it if you want, say I voted for a party, blah blah blah. But its just semantics.
Besides, that doesn't change my point. Europeans voted for the centre right grouping (apparently either not knowing or not caring, which I find hard to believe) and got a centre right President.
n.b. btw I made a mistake last time, it was closer to .07% voting directly for Cameron.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@180
Indeed. So why don't you leave the rest of us to it?
@181
But they don't complain about it all the time. You do.
On a different note, why do you keep writing "country's" and "party's"? Is it a deliberate parody of the British education system, per the lengthy discussion earlier in the thread?
Complain about this comment
Re #181 " to me the member states showing contempt are those that sign up for laws they have no intention of implementing and abiding with. The country's showing contempt are those with the most number of complaints before the ECJ for transgressions against EU rules e.g. France. You should be asking France to leave rather than a country that does follow what they've agreed."
I'S RATHER HAVE A GERMAN DIVISION IN FRONT OF ME THAN A FRENCH ONE BEHIND ME"
(Patton)
Complain about this comment
178. At 11:58am on 03 Aug 2010, MACEDNVS wrote:
" ...
Wouldn't it be more honest to leave altogether? Why be part of a Union for which you have nothing but contempt?"
EUpris: If we had a worthwhile democracy in the UK we would either never have become part of this rubbish or we would have long since left it. We certainly would not have accepted the Lisbon Treaty. About 82% of Brits wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Rubbish and about 70% wanted to vote NO.
Re: "nothing but contempt." Contempt, yes, but not only contempt. HATRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hatred of the "EU", not of other people in Europe.
Love Europe! Hate the "EU"!
Complain about this comment
Instead of a comment:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-10844915
Complain about this comment
On Monday, July 12, 2010 the Daily Mail wrote:
"TESTS ON FOREIGN NURSES SCRAPPED."
THOUSANDS of foreign nurses will be allowed into Britain without any safety checks - because EU rules demand that the tests are axed.
...
Critics say the changes will 'almost certainly' lead to lives being lost.
...
The test will still apply to non EU applicants. ..."
I have twice checked up on the Daily Mail with experts. One commented that something was "Very good" Another commented on something else that it was more or less correct.
Complain about this comment
Powermeerkat
Re #188
Sorry, but as the topic in Your website-referral was completely outside the present discussion or any recently brought up could You try to make some form of comment that might give it meaning?
I can assure You I could find similar articles for 'exploited' girls in almost every large city of the USA, France, Italy, Delhi, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Lagos, Jo'burg, Rio...
So, Your point is... ?
Complain about this comment
@ 189
What on earth are you on about?
Complain about this comment
re:186,
I'S RATHER HAVE A GERMAN DIVISION IN FRONT OF ME THAN A FRENCH ONE BEHIND ME"
(Patton)
*************************************
A fool says something stupid, a bigger fool repeats it ad nauseam…
Complain about this comment
'A witty saying proves nothing' - Voltaire
Complain about this comment
CBW: "So, Your point is... ?"
I was simply suprised by those ancient English names of the offenders I was not familiar with.
[Must have been Celtic]
Complain about this comment
"I'm no communist by any stretch, but if pm has read Das Kapital then I am a teapot."
Well I have read it, but, there's nothing wrong with being a teapot.
Complain about this comment
Re #192
Correction:
The captain of "Titanic" did NOT say:
"I'd rather have an iceberg in front of me, than isenhorn behind me".
Complain about this comment
Powermeerkat
Re #194
Yes, I know what You mean: About as surprising as 'Hussein Obama' in the White House!
Still, there it is, we look around and Cassius Clay is Muhammed Ali and before You know it Malcolm Little is El-Hajj Malik El-Shabbazz aka Malcolm X!
And let's not forget Khareem Rashad Khan, that fine, decorated USA Soldier, tragically deceased in Iraq.
You know, sometimes I get the feeling the World aint what it used to be, how about You!?
Complain about this comment
#185. At 1:01pm on 03 Aug 2010, MACEDNVS,
I suggest you look up the use of the symbol Apostrophe in English, you may just be surprised how it can be used.
Complain about this comment
"You know, sometimes I get the feeling the World aint what it used to be, how about You!?
CBW: Francois Villon noticed that more than couple of hundred years ago when he asked, rhetorically:
"Where are the snows of yesteryear?"
And concluded by saying: "everything went down the toilet".
Complain about this comment
194. At 5:00pm on 03 Aug 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"I was simply suprised by those ancient English names of the offenders I was not familiar with."
Aren't they Turkish, or something within that vein? I thought you rather liked them.
Complain about this comment
198. At 6:58pm on 03 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
"I suggest you look up the use of the symbol Apostrophe in English, you may just be surprised how it can be used."
Precisely my point. You're doing it wrong.
Complain about this comment
What seems to be going on within the governments of our fellow members of the EU worries me far more than directives from Brussels.
Sarkozy appears to believe most of France’s problems can be resolved by legal action against immigrants and their offspring (does he include Hungarians?). Of course, Berlusconi has been playing that card in Italy for a long time together with his personal ‘get out of gaol free’ card.
Will one of the illustrious leaders and defenders of democracy take the opportunity to ‘burn the Reichstag’ while everyone is on holiday? If they think that they can get away with it, yes.
Complain about this comment
#202. At 8:02pm on 03 Aug 2010, WolfiePeters,
A mate of mine who lives in France was telling me today that Sarko has really lost it and that a couple of police officers got shot the other day in preference to burning their cars. Is that true, who knows?
Complain about this comment
"Aren't they [names] Turkish, or something within that vein?"
Nope. [Obsession/compulsion duly registered]
But one can hardly expect Mecedonian kebabs to notice that.
Although CBW would probably notice those names were not Ugro-Finnish.
Complain about this comment
How is a "Mecedonian" kebab different from any other? Do you wash it down with Greek coffee?
I may not know much about "Ugro-Finnish", whatever the relevance of that is, but I do know that Turkish names are largely Arabic or Persian in origin.
Complain about this comment
Hi,
I'm back. Something would not let me make comments ...I thought I was banned.
:)
Complain about this comment
But thanks to those who said "where is David?" (WebAlice, Margaret Howard, OakTree and any others who said they missed me, "moderate center/left person who actually likes the UK and Europe.")
And hi to all those people who contribute so much (whether malicious or otherwise lolol)
AND before I forget, on a page about a month or two ago (I kept reading the comments)
DemocracyThreat wrote a brilliant comment about America's involvement in Vietnam saying something about how the USA thrived during the Vietnam war in spite of losing that war. (no offense to Cool Brush Work or anyone else).
See, same old David...(HI, WebAlice, Marcus II, CoolBrushWork, Threnodio, Oak Tree et al, I missed you guys too (if or if you did not miss me)
David
Complain about this comment
207 KCDavid
"...DemocracyThreat wrote a brilliant comment about America's involvement in Vietnam saying something about how the USA thrived during the Vietnam war in spite of losing that war..."
Now we wait to see how the USA will thrive during the Afghanistan war in spite of losing that war...
Endgame in Afghanistan: 'It's taken a year to move 20km' - the futility of US BRITISH war
Complain about this comment
BTW,
There is not that much difference between the USA and the EU. We have good schools too.
Also, the EU has good schools. Both entities--continents--are beset with immigration problems (yes, people come to America for better lives, too,)
And OUR newspapars do report waterboarding as torture and in the NY Times, 99.999 percent of the time....just as Europe's papers do.
I sometimes wonder where some people "read" their "information."
Long story shortened, both the USA and Europe AND the UK are not all that much different from each other.
But,
We have really--uninformed--people here called "The Tea Party" whom are ruining (YEA) the Republican party. In fact, this neo-con party seems quite looney lately, and will not probably not make much of an impact in upcoming USA elections, because they are basically, truly
illiterate.
And that is being polite. If they are not illiterate they are corrupted to an unimaginable degree--by their ...judgement.
Anyway, Cheers:)
Glad to be back.
Complain about this comment
I do understand the futility of this war. But, ha, we WILL survive ...even if that area doesn't. Yes, we have a responsibility, but I can't figure out what it is anymore.
But, we WILL survive and our debt problems are from the time of Reagan to GW Bush.
And our deficits were zero during Clinton's time and will be zero again, someday.
And I bet, the UK will get ahold of their debt problems, too. BUT, thank you for that ...fun...information.:)
Complain about this comment
Wow, nice to be back, but I forgot about the time difference(s).
And I do miss WebAlice, did she get driven off, banned or ...insulted (by some people's rebuttals)?
She is probably fled to a Russian language blog.
Web Alice and Gen. Franco, are you out there, somewhere?
Complain about this comment
Also, I've been laid off (I'm a seasonal govt. employee), therefore I do enjoy my "non productive" vacation and I do empathize with the European people's desire for a month off from work ...OMGGGGG.
ALSO, believe it or not, I get Uemployment Payments, the whole time I'm off work---no offence to Republicans anywhere...
OH WELLLLL
Complain about this comment
KCD;
"We have really--uninformed--people here called "The Tea Party" whom are ruining (YEA) the Republican party. In fact, this neo-con party seems quite looney lately, and will not probably not make much of an impact in upcoming USA elections, because they are basically, truly
illiterate."
Not so illiterate and uninformed that they don't know that the people running the United States government and their friends have wrecked the country. That the country is being run for the benefit of the very rich and the scheme to give everyone a house of their own even if they couldn't possibly afford it, to send jobs, companies, entire industries to places like China where there are no environmental laws, labor laws, or any other laws has only made rich people richer at everyone else's expense.
The tea parties are an open revolt against the entire governnment, one that will overthrow it legally at the ballot boxes. The Republican Party is merely the most convenient vehicle for this revolt. Republicans who collaborated in this massive swindle will have their heads on the chopping block come election day along with the Democrats. I'm not one of them but I sympathize and I think many other Americans do too. They express our rage and disgust. I'm voting against whoever is in office and is runnig for re-election. If they don't run then I'll vote for someone of the party they were not in. Out with the old bums in with the new.
The tea parties are a symbol of the right of Americans to express their displeasure by overthrowing their government. That now is entirely justified and unlike 1775 it will be done peacefully. This includes President Obama and his cronies, some of whom are as crooked as three dollar bills. What do you suppose will happen after the US pulls out of Iraq and a civil war breaks out there? Obama may have turned Iraq into George Bush's Vietnam, but he's also turning Afghanistan into his own. There is only so much you can blame your predecessor for and get away with it here. Tony Blair might have pulled that off for over ten years in despotic Britain but it doesn't fly here. Obama now owns the mess he promised to clean up but didn't. In 27 months we will elect his replacement. Unless something drastic changes, he's on target to be a one term President, possibly the worst ever surpassing even Woodrow Wilson.
Complain about this comment
Macedoneus,
I don't care whether a coffee is called a 'French coffee' or a 'Greek coffee', as long as it's a Turkish coffee.
Just like I don't care whether a kebab is called Bulgarian or Macedonian.
I'll even eat a spicy 'Iranian kebab', as long as it's made in Adana.
Or even Incirlik. :)
P.S. As much as I care you can claim Ataturk as Greek.
[he was born in Salonika/Thessaloniki]
P.P.S Of course a Spotted Dick must me made in Spotland.
Although I personall ywould not boat much about Ptolemy.
Complain about this comment
A Greek well-wisher wrote:
"Now we wait to see how the USA will thrive during the Afghanistan war in spite of losing that war..."
A collapse and demise of the United States has been predicted and hoped for by many for over 200 years.
Please, wake me up in 2210 if the situation changes.
Complain about this comment
Will leftist cons finally learn what a "neo-con" means?
And accept that there were and still are bona fide conservatives who've never been anything else?
And I thought you'd appreciate the latter ones since they were traditionally isolationists rather than interventionists?
[[Every single U.S. involvement in any major conflict of the XXth century was initiated by the Democrats (WWI - Wilson, WWII -FDR, Korean War- Truman, Vietnam War- JFK and LBJ, Balkan War - Clinton]
As I've pointed out more than once before:
'A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING'
Complain about this comment
"Obama now owns the mess he promised to clean up but didn't. In 27 months we will elect his replacement. Unless something drastic changes, he's on target to be a one term President, possibly the worst ever surpassing even Woodrow Wilson."
Perhaps even Jimmy Carter.
Although the Peanut Farmer's record is hard to beat.
Complain about this comment
"And our deficits were zero during Clinton's time"
Due to Newt Gingrich and his Republicans in the U.S. Congress. ;)
[How soon they (people from the 'blue states') forget it]
Complain about this comment
You are so right, Powermeerkat.
You are one of the more intelligent "cons" on here. I remember that neo-conservatives made their appearance about the time of Reagan. But does neo-con mean new conservatives or Democrats who decided that they would rather switch sides and become Republicans?
I was depressed during the 1980s and blamed it on Reagan. Funny, I came out of my depression when GHW Bush became president showing myself that Republicans do not cause mental depression.
But I remember the National Review became a big name magazine (way) back then (Buckley?) and that The New Republic magazine even had "neo-cons" (for instance, Charles Krauthiemer?)
But, I do think the looney right is taking over the Republicans. These Tea Party people attract racists as well as "constitutionalists"--one of the groups that Marcus may admire.
Have you listened to them? They can barely say their own names. There may be intelligence in the Tea Party ranks, but its hard to detect (no offense to anyone.
Surely, it is time the Republicans started attracting people like Rockefeller
Complain about this comment
OOOps, I pressed post comment. Remember the days when Republicans attracted people from all over the spectrum? As in Rockefellar (sp?) and other "liberal" Republicans?
What has happened? If the Republicans make gains during this election it will be because of high unemployment, not ideology
:)
Complain about this comment
First post.
I came across a startling statistic yesterday after reading many of the contributions here, it seems Greek workers top the world league of average hours worked, second only to Korea(!) See: http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=350 (most recent data 2008)
I calcluate it to 44 hours/week compared to 34 in the UK, assuming 4 weeks off per year. Now possibly there are very few part time workers in Greece - I have no idea - but they can't be described as idle on that measure.
I'm sure most Greeks lucky enough to have time to read a forum such as this will feel most upset that many contributors on HYS seem to parrot the European/World media in criticising them roundly for needing a 'bail-out'. In contrast I myself see it as purely a 'refinancing package' seeing as a) it needs to be paid back in full one day and b) in all that time it's accruing interest at a healthy 5%. Compare and contrast with the US loan to newly 'socialist' postwar Britain (huge new welfare state, free universal healthcare including dental treatment and optical aids - ugh!) at 2%, to be repaid over 50 years, and deferrable year on year.
On whether Britain should be in the Euro I would remind commentators of the erstwhile 'five economic tests' which were the Blair Government's pre-conditions to considering joining. My suspicion is that Brown as Chancellor ran a tight ship 1997-2003 in order to try to meet those indicators, and then abandoned the idea when they appeared unattainable, instead increasing public spending without taxes (the Conservatives seemed to issue a deafening silence on the fact of the Labour party going from tax-and-spend label to borrow-and-spend policies at the time.)
The large falls of the pound against the Euro, and even more markedly the dollar, during the recession leads me to believe that the UK economy needed this flexibility of an independent currency otherwise we would have a worse economic outlook than we have presently. One could argue that we would have dragged the Euro further down against the dollar had we been in the Eurozone, which would not have looked good on the world stage.
Finally, on deficits and the 3%/60% Eurozone deficit/debt to GDP guideline, I would like to point out that the UK had 'only' a debt of around 40% in 2003. The rise to 70+% can be partly explained by the aforementioned borrow-and-spend policies, but around 10 percentage points are due to the bank nationalisations and other interventions, and somewhat less than this due the 6.6% cumulative contraction of the UK economy over the course of the recession which negatively effects the other portion of the ratio.
On the plus side, the UK Treasury may even make a profit on the eventual sale of NRAM, Lloyds and RBS etc. shares. In the meantime NRAM (the 'bad bank' part of Northern Rock) paid the Treasury £300m on top of announcing of a profit this week and don't forget the Treasury gets 45%/80% respectively of any dividends announced after this week's financial results of Lloyds/RBS.
To my understanding only Finland with it's modern hi-tech industry and league-topping educated workforce, along with Luxembourg, in the Eurozone which has stuck to the 3%/60%, and has now entered a 'double-dip' recession. So it's clearly not a panacea. Personally I would look to personal/business bankruptcies/IVA's, reposessions and long-term unemployment as real indicators of the 'human cost' of the recession. It is certainly painful in the UK right now (and in many other places of course), but on some measures maybe not as bad as 1991/2 which wasn't really a recession in the rest of Europe and certainly not in the US as far as I am aware.
So to conclude I don't think the Euro will fail as the member countries managed to stay in the ERM (unlike the UK of course) for many years before the single currency. Yes, level playing fields can highlight differences in individual players, and the Eurozone is a level playing field, so joining it is not signing up to a gravy-train. No, the UK will not be considering joining during this administration so it's an irrelevant question for at least five years. As regards EU membership itself it was 'finally settled' by referendum in 1975. If you weren't old enough to vote then tough, demanding further referenda until you get the result you want is what some accuse the EU of re: EU constitution etc. so please don't risk getting tarred with the same brush.
Complain about this comment
KCD you sound like a refugee from a Bella Abzug rally. Care to defend Representative Charles Rangel?
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/04/avlon.corruption/
Complain about this comment
KC David wrote:
"But, I do think the looney right is taking over the Republicans."
That indeed might happen, although not very likely.
[a leftist pathology infecting a rightist one]
But there's a huge difference between Republican PARTY and true conservatives. [those true blue from them 'red states' :)]
Just as there's a huge difference between traditional democrats and the DNC leftist radicals.
Hopefully neither (crypto) Marxists nor Bible Belt extremists will prevail.
Insh Allah!
Complain about this comment
Re #219
I was one of those who elected Bill the Zipper.
By voting (in protest) for Ross Perot and against GHW Bush after the latter increased our taxes after saying one time too often:
"read my lips: no new taxes!".
[we'll remember in November]
Complain about this comment
"OOOps, I pressed post comment. Remember the days when Republicans attracted people from all over the spectrum? As in Rockefellar (sp?) and other "liberal" Republicans?"
I remember when the Democratic Party was a staunch supporter of racial segregation in the South.
And I remember Condie Rice telling how her father (a black pastor from the racist Alabama) wanted to register as a Democrat but was rejected, and then went to the Republicans - who took him in.
[meerkats are not elephants, but they do have an elephant memory]
Complain about this comment
MarcusAureliusII wrote:
""Europe's Dog Days," a deliberate gratuitous and wholly undeserved insult to dogs, especially now that we believe it was the dogs themselves and not man that caused their evolution from wolves. And it is thought to have been done in the remarkably short time span of 100 years or less. "
Huh? You what?
Marcus, you claim to be an engineer. So where is your science in this instance?
Clearly neither dogs nor mankind "caused" the evolution of anything. Evolution is a process, not a history.
You need to step away from the cross here, Marcus, and have a bit of a think about what you are saying here. This dog will not fly. This bird will not hunt.
But on the subject of wolves, and European politics, Switzerland has been enjoying a resurgence of wolf related titillation in the media.
The story is that..... and the swiss media always make everything politically contentious.... the good work done by the government in establishing nature parks has allowed the wolves back into the country. So hooray for that, right? Wrong. The wolves have been getting jiggy with the farmers cattle and sheep, and eating of them in prodigious quantities. If you believe what you read in the right wing press, or you listen to farmers.
So the farmers and the fascists are crying poor, and saying the the socialists are killing them with stupidity. (Always a popular refrain in this country.)
Not to be outdone, the socialists have mounted the counter argument that due to years of oppression and injustice carried out on Swiss wolves (always you get the nationalism creeping into the argument, even with wolves) by the fascist oppressor swine pig farmers, there is no longer any room in the Swiss psyche for a Swiss wolf. This, argue the socialists, is a manifestation of the way fascism takes over a culture and destroys what is beautiful and sacred (socialists can't rip the G word, but they allude to it).
Well, you can imagine how the debate goes on from there. Farmers observing that they would be happy to feed the socialists to the wolves, if they are hungry, and socialists waxing bold with metaphors for farmers as rapists of the earth and ultimately responsible for the revenge attacks of Gaia, and so forth.
Into this debate came a builder from Bern, who made the point that from his taxes, a truly huge amount of money went towards socialist students, but that an even greater amount was taken to pay farmers to keep running their racket. He was of the view that these were his wolves, because he was paying for them. The builder was happy the wolves were eating the farmers stock, because it entertained him and farmers are all fascists and thieves, and he also hoped that the socialists would get out into the countryside and camp out, and hopefully be eaten themselves. Because they were also a huge burden upon him, as a taxpayer.
Needless to say, the builder won the day, in terms of popular approval.
The Swiss do not buy into childish political paradigms put forward by the darling children of the left or the right wing party machine. They make their own laws, and have no respect for left or right.
They just want to know how much it costs them.
Looking at the USA and UK now, it is hard to argue that this is a bad way of approaching the political economy of any given state.
Complain about this comment
MSAII: " Care to defend Representative Charles Rangel?"
Even if had $70,000.00 stashed in my fridge like another membeber of the same Caucus Charlie belongs to- I'd think twice about it right now.
[I'd sooner eject under 9G at 90 000 ft.
A higher survival rate, all things considered]
Complain about this comment
MAII : "KCD you sound like a refugee from a Bella Abzug rally."
Bella Abzug at least had (and wore) nice hats.
Unlike Nancy Pelosi. Or Barbara Boxer.["A Million Dollar Baby"]
Complain about this comment
207 KC David
Welcome back David, I missed your charming contributions. I'm sure many of your other friends here feel the same. Incidentally, Webalice is still with us although she has been on holiday in her dacha for a while. She is commenting again on the previous blog from Gavin 'Where does Turkey's future lie' from the 27th July, her last entry being 487 in case you want to catch up with her. She is still a pleasure to read.
There are also a number of new contributers here, some interesting Greek, Bulgarian and Turkish gentlemen who greatly enlighten us after a near take-over by a lot of aggressive male posturers. (I don't know how to make a 'smiley sign' on my computer.)
Look forward to reading more from you
Complain about this comment
#219. At 3:57pm on 04 Aug 2010, KCDavid,
Talking about neo this and neo that makes me think you have missed the plot, the term neo- is totally open for interpretation as you will see in many definitions on the web. What has happened is that the goalposts have been shifted leftwards because of all the caring, trendy, can't be unfair to anybody, everybody's equal, PC, HR people now pulling the strings. Since most are now totally confused about those trends that hurt their own lives and the lives of their offspring the words neo-??? are a waste of time.
#221. At 4:51pm on 04 Aug 2010, britboy10,
"Compare and contrast with the US loan to newly 'socialist' postwar Britain (huge new welfare state, free universal healthcare including dental treatment and optical aids - ugh!) at 2%, to be repaid over 50 years, and deferrable year on year."
I stand to be corrected but was that not the war debt that was used to build liberty ships, etc and fund the UK's WWII effort.
Complain about this comment
Thank you, Margaret.
Complain about this comment
dt, I don't know what you are talking about but if you want to learn how wolves evolved into dogs, check out the PBS series NOVA which has a fascinating 2 part series which explains the latest theory, a startling one that is very different from what has been previously believed. The old theory that humans bred wolves for traits they wanted in a domesticated animal is no longer the one that these scientists believe. Yes the wolves evolved themselves into dogs by those having traits which made them least fearful of humans when scavanging for food resulted in inbreeding that trait. The process is beleived to have taken less than 100 years and man had nothing to do with it. BTW, the process happened somewhere in what is now China. All dogs trace their DNA lineage back to that spot.
Interesting program on BBC hosted by Dawkins about genetic research in both humans and animals and how that relates to evolution and proof of Darwin's theory.
So I reiterate my question, how long will it take Europeans to evolve and will they be able to do it themselves the way the dogs did or will it require outside intervention?
Complain about this comment
Margaret,
I went to that blog and here is what I said to her (no offense to males -- any of the 3 billion of them.)
"Hi WebAlice,
........
You know, I'm sooo bad, but no one else gets banned so I was a little angry, but was so addicted to reading this blog :)
BTW, are you and Margaret Howard the only women posting comments on this blog? All I can say is REMEMBER...
Men have problems saying the words .."I apologize" or "I am/was wrong."
I'm male (lol) and I know what we are like...though, I say it--the above--and its easy to say ...hmmmm"
Complain about this comment
#230 Buzet23
"I stand to be corrected but was that not the war debt that was used to build liberty ships, etc and fund the UK's WWII effort."
As I understand it the 'lend-lease' programme ('War-Aid') was abruptly terminated in August 1945 by the US Government who then asked for repayment. However they did write down the repayment amount by a huge percentage.
The 'Anglo-American loan' (much larger than this repayment amount) was negotiated that same year and included a sizeable amount from Canada. The final repayment was made in 2006. There were some conditions attached but not involving domestic policies, unlike the EU/IMF loan to Greece. Also the loan was in US$, repayable in US$, so became progressively more expensive as the £/$ exchange rate fell.
(Britain also received considerable monies from the pan-(Western)-European Marshall Aid plan, and its immediate predecessor.)
Just to reiterate my main point: we call(ed) it a loan not a bail-out
Complain about this comment
"Just to reiterate my main point: we call(ed) it a loan not a bail-out"
Call it whatever you like britboy, at 2% interest over 60 years I call it a gift. By the time it was finally paid off there had been so much inflation that the money was hardly worth anything anymore, it had become a mere token. And what was the payback for that gift? Releasing Megrahi for one. We have a saying here: "No good deed goes unpunished." And now they resent Brenton Woods. What hubris.
Complain about this comment
KCDavid
What´s the KC --I almost missed the re-entry ?
Welcome back to the dog bowl !
Complain about this comment
To KCDavid, powermeerkat, etc..
I have to say that reading your comments amplifies my view on that the real issue and the real problem isn't the left or the right, neo-cons or liberals, but intransigence on being right regardless of what is actually right or wrong, what is real and what is not. That is partisanship right there and that is the real problem.
I don't know what is causing this, maybe your FPTP election system, whatever, I don't know. What I do know is that kind of pickering sounds very foreign as I can't in anyways see being locked inside that two dimensional world, that to me isn't part of the European experience, at least not anymore. For example I'm social liberal, fiscal conservative, environmentalist with emphasis on human life and European federalist with emphasis on state rights, that is my political leaning, left and right doesn't have anything to do with it, getting things working has everything to do with it.
Complain about this comment
#233 KCDavid
´Men have problems saying the words-- `I apologize´or ´ I am /was wrong´
Please retract with apology --- I DID --- remember ?
Complain about this comment
#234. At 9:08pm on 04 Aug 2010, britboy10,
"Just to reiterate my main point: we call(ed) it a loan not a bail-out"
I think that was justified bearing in mind the circumstances, There is a wikipedia article under the title Anglo-American loan that explains the circumstances and terms that I've just been reading, as I've not researched this before and there is one interesting paragraph
"The loan was made primarily to support British overseas expenditure in the immediate post-war years and not to implement the Labour government's welfare reforms. British treasury officials believed they could implement the Labour government's domestic reforms without the loan if Britain withdrew from all major overseas commitments.[3] Additionally, Britain's lend-lease balance was written off for $650 million (US$7,858 million in 2010).".
It looks like Labour was capable of blowing money it could ill afford even then as it cut many of those overseas commitments (old empire) and also took the loan.
Complain about this comment
MarcusAurellius
Newt Gingrich has given an accusatory speech to the VERY right wing Enterprise Institute condemning American Moslems and Islam. He already has some Republican sympathizers.
Is AIPAC behind this, or have they distanced themselves ?
Complain about this comment
#237. At 9:39pm on 04 Aug 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:
"I have to say that reading your comments amplifies my view on that the real issue and the real problem isn't the left or the right, neo-cons or liberals, but intransigence on being right regardless of what is actually right or wrong, what is real and what is not. That is partisanship right there and that is the real problem."
Hi Jukka, bearing in mind the way you have always refused to concede any points concerning the EU and can not accept that there are always alternatives to the current EU direction, I guess you were also referring to yourself when you referred to intransigence. What is your excuse for your unwillingness to contemplate an alternative EU, is it the proportional election system in Finland, lol.
Complain about this comment
#235 MarcusAureliusII
"I call it a gift"
I'm not going to try to disagree. The loan to Greece is not, however.
"And what was the payback"
This does make me feel embarassed, the Megrahi release was a shambles. I've never encountered the Scottish legal system myself (as you may know it has always been separate and very different from English Law as used in England, Wales and Northern Ireland) but it seems from the evidence of this fiasco to hold itself accountable only to the devolved Scottish Executive and not to Westminster.
I believe the PM when he says he voiciferously opposed the release while in opposition, while his assertion that it is a UK matter I think is a reference to the fact that the Scottish Executive did not have the authority to allow the release. My personal view is that as a result of not having any significant foreign diplomatic representation, the Scottish Executive ignored the international significance of what they were allowing through ignorance rather than anything else. The Scottish Justice system wanted to release on compassionate grounds but I think it was to avoid having to pay for expensive medical treatment, and being held responsible if it was unsuccessful.
I know that the Senate Committee has requested members of the Scottish Executive to attend hearings but I think it would be counter-productive for them to do so. The ultimate responsibility has to rest with the Home Secretary of the time. The reason for such a long response is that I hope you (and other Americans) don't hold a grudge over this. It was a short-sighted sop to the Scottish Legal system with damaging international consequences by an Administration since voted out of office.
"And now they resent Brenton Woods"
I'm not sure I understand your point or its context here. Could you elucidate? (Assuming you mean Bretton.)
Complain about this comment
Powermeerkat
Bill the Zipper in the Oral Office ?
Complain about this comment
quietoaktree,
Yes, you did, I apologize :) That is what happens when one generalizes like I did. But, its just that...
Oh well, I can't get out of that one, can I?
*****************************************************
And, I agree with you Jukka. You are talking of pluralism--we have a lack of choice, here in the USA, true.
But, until recently, it "sort of worked"....now its as if there has been a regime change and the opposition is in open rebellion.
BUT, we have many people, now who call themselves Independent voters (belonging to neither party) whom are probably the political center that shifts left or right, depending on the issue or candidate.
It would be nice to have a multiparty parliament or system, but how does one accomplish that--and here is what I believe to be true...(tho not on topic--is there one to this thread?)
President Obama has alienated both the far right and the far left, therefore, he is perfectly situated for a second term. As for "the war," I think people in general are sick of wars in general and are ready to spend their money in better ways.
But, successful tho he may be in the long term (he has already saved what was left of our economy...yes, true, and it will be in history books),
What is to become of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan after everyone leaves? That is a big huge mess, does anyone care? Actually, I think people (NATO) are totally out of their depth---
I can't think of ANY ways to fix the above problem.....7 billion dollars for Pakistan?.. borrowed from China? To do what, further inflame possibly the most volatile region in the world?
See, I've been gone too long, too many words already :)
Complain about this comment
acorn brain;
"Is AIPAC behind this, or have they distanced themselves ?"
Oh yeah, I have a direct pipeline to them and Mosaad. They ask me for advice and tell me what they are doing and going to do. How the hell would I know? Believe it or not, Newt Gingrich appears to be able to think and speak for himself. This may be difficult for some of you left wingnuts to grasp but stranger things have been known to happen.
I think it's about 50-50 odds he'll run for president in 2012. I might even vote for him although I haven't forgotten that he shut down the government when he was the Speaker of the House.
Complain about this comment
#239 Buzet23
To 'quote-your-quote':
"British treasury officials believed they could implement the Labour government's domestic reforms without the loan if Britain withdrew from all major overseas commitments."
By the same token the US could have argued that Britain should not implement the domestic reforms and use the money thereby saved to maintain their overseas commitments.
"It looks like Labour was capable of blowing money it could ill afford even then as it cut many of those overseas commitments (old empire) and also took the loan."
Good point, it was borrow-and-spend even then. But looking at history with hindsight (always the best way) I fail to see any material or military advantage to maintaining these 'overseas commitments', whatever they may have been. I don't think we left behind anarchy (read: 'failed states') from our pre-1960 withdrawals, nor do I think we could have influenced the Chinese civil war or Korean war significantly had we stayed. The exception that is obvious to me is the 1940's Greek civil war, handing responsibility for defeating the communists over to the US was possibly one reduced commitment too far.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (241):
You make claims, but you don't back them up. If you offer an alternative, you also have to offer evidence that backs up your claim, if you don't do that then you really don't have anything to offer. For example I have many times offered evidence, usually statistics with links provided for others to authenticate or provide an base to criticize my view by finding flaws in my source material.
For example, did you know that between 1999-2008, the Eurozone by GDP per capita grew quicker than either USA and Japan and only slightly slower than UK? I made that note to counter a claim that Eurozone grew slowest from all developing countries, I did it by providing linkage to my source...
http://wwwsearch.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/05/how_sick_is_the_euro.html#P96506650
How many times you have provided statistical evidence? How many times you have explained things using mainstream economic theories? Now when you start to offer evidence with your claims, then we can start discussing about alternatives.
Complain about this comment
#247 Jukka Rohilla
For many, blind Nationalism is the problem --facts only confuse and are not at all desired.
Complain about this comment
" Most of the Eurocrats have caught the fast train to the coast."
EUpris: Please could they stay there???!!!!
Eurocrats! You are worse than useless parasites! Leave us alone! We don't need you! Do something more useful with your lives! Sweep the streets!
Complain about this comment
acorn;
"For many, blind Nationalism is the problem"
And then for others the problem is total blindness. Even potatoes have eyes but trees and acorns don't.
Complain about this comment
Gavin Hewitt has a job to do for the BBC , writing stimulating Europe Bloggs . In my view he does the best he can to present the facts as they are , or as he sees them . Hewitt needs to be a bit of a "Devils Advocate" to arrouse response to his Blogs , from all of us commenters , with biases one way or another .
It is all very well to Poo-Poo Gavin or MAII , the latter who derives so much pleasure from putting the EU ( Europe )down . One should consider that currently the US is in a worse state of debt than any European country . Despite MAIIs rants against Europe , there may be truth in what he writes and his comments should not be dismissed .
So , the Recession is over , the Euro is on the UP again . Greece has been funded for the immediate future , the ECB has the promise of 750Billion should Greece or other Eurozone countries need a loan
( Bailing Out ). The Eurocrats have gone on a months holiday secure in the knowledge that the Euro and EU are alright now . Of course , short of a total collapse of the EU it isn't going to affect their excessive salaries , so No Worries . Everything in the Garden is coming up Roses .
Could this just be the calm before the storm ? I have been reading the views of many eminent financial Analysts , or hearing them on television . All of them are of the opinion that for the Eurozone there is worse to come ; that Greece will not be able to have sufficient growth to continue , without a default or restructuring her debts .
Spain too , is thought to be teetering on the brink ; the whole Eurozone has insufficient momentum and growth potential to lift itself out of the dolrdums .
I say to those who think that Gavin Hewitt is wrong and that MarcusAuraliusII is just spewing venom ; don't be too sure .
Complain about this comment
#247 Jukka Rohila
I appreciate that Statisital Evidence has been used to prove everything .
It is said that the same Statistics can be made to prove for , or against a point . Economic theories , mainstream or otherwise are just theories , somebody's opinion ; often they can be wrong too .
Considering a nations growth is only relative . I read lately that Turkey is growing very fast ; it is generally the case that backward or third world countries have the potential to grow , where developed countries do not .
Complain about this comment
All this economics talk could get very boring ...IF there were more of it.
Maybe one should read The Economist where they are predicting????? (China, Brazil, India, Russia and Turkey will continue to grow faster than the USA or the EU)
The only thing people seem to really know these days is that nothing is known about the future ...
I don't think its going to get worse OR better ..this time reminds me of the 1970s where no nation or organization of nations grew much...faster than inflation.
IMO, it could be that we'll have relatively stagnant growth as Japan did in the 1990s .....
But, I don't think there will be a big depression because of the BRIC states. They are now the world's growth engine and because of their growth rates, and the West's dependency on them, it is basically safe, as far as that goes.
How is that for a controversial opinion? Not very? Oh well.
Complain about this comment
245. Marcus
"I think it's about 50-50 odds he'll run for president in 2012. I might even vote for him although I haven't forgotten that he shut down the government when he was the Speaker of the House."
Is that a bad thing?
Complain about this comment
252. Huaimek
With no disrespect to Jukka. He seems sincere enough. I'm reminded of the old saying "figures don't lie but liars can figure".
Complain about this comment
Jukka Rohila wrote: "I'm social liberal, fiscal conservative, environmentalist with emphasis on human life and European federalist with emphasis on state rights, that is my political leaning, left and right doesn't have anything to do with it, getting things working has everything to do with it."
So why haven't you made EU work?
And instilled that European solidarity, let alone European identityin people who don't demontrate much of it? (to put it midly).
You should have been able to accomplish that since you're a Euroenthusiast, and EU is, according to you, a democratic organization serving its members and answerable to them. So Mr Barroso and his minions should have listened to people like you and prevented systemic failures which were obvious and known even to them for many years.
Complain about this comment
#84 Ellinas
Re Men in court at Crete dressed as nuns , who had bared their Bums in public . I dare say they had had a few drinks !
Yes , that is part of the excellent British education . Extracurricula activity , you understand , a bit of British schoolboy humour ; not always appreciated in foreign parts .
Complain about this comment
"a bit of British schoolboy humour ; not always appreciated in foreign parts"
Some parts are, though.
Complain about this comment
#113 Buzet23
One must remember that Comprehensive Education in Britain is socially comprehensive . Evidently in Belgium education is comprehensive in the true sense of the word . I used to think that those childen not academically inclined , once they could read and write and do arithmatic , should have been channelled to practical training and leave school with a certificate given equal value to the academic ones .
But not so , everything is for socially dumbing down , especially for childen from educated homes .
After GSE , my elder son was going to take Maths at A level . We thought it a good idea for him to have extra tuition during the long summer holidays . The only maths teacher we could find , prepared to help him , was from the local big town comprehensive school . At the first lesson , the teacher admitted he couldn't teach beyond GSE level .
In Thailand it is said that you have to have a university bachelor's degree to work at a "7Eleven" shop .
Complain about this comment
#247. At 10:32pm on 04 Aug 2010, Jukka Rohila,
"How many times you have provided statistical evidence? How many times you have explained things using mainstream economic theories? Now when you start to offer evidence with your claims, then we can start discussing about alternatives."
This is always your response as you are intransigent about alternative directions and policies. Firstly economic theories are just that, theories, in the last few years we've seen how suspect all the theories are and how wrong the 'expert' economists can be, at best they guess, and for each crisis there are as many for one course of action as there are for an alternative. Secondly, since the alternatives for the EU have not been tried there is no statistical evidence to support them, the only evidence we have is that the current EU direction is failing and becoming disliked by many throughout the EU.
Now are you prepared to actually discuss the feasibility of alternatives such as a loose common market with open borders, free trade and without the 'ever closer union' and ever increasing regulation that is stifling so many in the EU, without just blandly saying the current EU direction is the only way forward. Statistics can be used to prove almost anything, by selectively including only those analyses that support your angle which is the trick all politicians use, so please stop the current direction EU rote and propose new solutions as 'ever closer union' has made things worse with each new treaty.
Complain about this comment
#235. At 9:15pm on 04 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"And what was the payback for that gift? Releasing Megrahi for one. We have a saying here: "No good deed goes unpunished.""
That could also be payback for the rattling IRA collection plates that were filled from US purses and funded the bombing of London for so long. There are many of us who lived/worked in London during the 70's and 80's who have not forgotten the part the US played in this and especially the part New York played. I would like to see those senators who say they will come to the UK being questioned as to their links with the IRA.
Complain about this comment
Buzet23,
Do you know of the saying "2 wrongs don't make a right?"
It's true that Obama and the USA Congress, lately, have been seen to Bully the UK which is to me despicable behavior, especially by fat corrupt politicians in our Congress--to our own best blood relative nation!
But, what I think, is, all this is spilt milk and Marcus is just baiting you.
Obama realized his mistake about 3 wks into the mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
And I would venture to say that without BP the USA would be in a mell of a hess.
It is unPC to say it, but BP has performed admirably, but the Congress has played to the left wing and other peoples in America ...those whom think of the UK as overly self-important. (they are intimidated, and none too smart)
There is a prejudice among far left people in the USA towards Britain, so this is like throwing a bone to a very small portion of the Democrat party. I've often noticed that "liberals" on the far left harbor a class kind of hatred for the UK which is embarrassing for most Americans.
So, its not personal. BP has done a great job of stopping the spill and taking responsibility if not doing a great job of Public Relations.
So, sorry, UK. You really are our best friend in the whole world IMHO. Canada is less trustworthy as an ally.
Complain about this comment
Of course Marcus is the exception to the rule, a relative conservative....
Complain about this comment
262. At 11:33am on 05 Aug 2010, KCDavid wrote:
So, sorry, UK. You really are our best friend in the whole world IMHO. Canada is less trustworthy as an ally.
-------------------------------
Are you still mad that we didn't join your illegal war?
Move on.
Complain about this comment
#254 MaudDib
"Is that a bad thing?" ("he shut down the government")
Yes, probably. I hadn't fogotten the event, just who was responsible. As a result of stonewalling Clinton's Federal Budget for the year beyond the start of said fiscal year, all Government workers were laid off for the day.
The reason they went back to work the following day was not because of any great statesmanship or negotiating breakthrough, but because the amount saved by not paying everyone for the day was greater than the budget dispute. In my view this highlights the pointless grandstanding of N. Gingrich (and of course his Republican cohorts) even more.
Still, it's good that MA can condsider forgiving this, maybe he's more sympathetic than PM towards Greek strikers (#128). As for him possibly running for Presidency in 2012 I have to assume he knows more about the functioning of Capitol Hill than S. Palin, but I'd hope he has learnt more respect for Federal employees/customers (let's call them Americans) and Presidential Authority since then.
#252 Huaimek
"it is generally the case that backward or third world countries have the potential to grow , where developed countries do not ."
Yes, I have to agree. Surely there has to be a glass ceiling - a person, business, or by extrapolation, nation state can only produce/work so much given ideal fiscal, social and market conditions. Maybe Japan has reached this ceiling?
I'd like to believe that every human being could one day enjoy an adequate, sustainable quality of life. (Ideally without the fiscal/societal collapse of Europe and indeed the USA.) At least we seem to be able to feed ourselves across the world, unlike some previous dire predictions. Also, we've gone from EU 'grain mountains' to rotting Phillipino rice. Progress?
As regards individual wealth, there are unsurprisingly more US$ dollar millionaires (excluding primary residence) in the US than in the UK proportionate to population size, but not by much. It's 403 billionaires in the US though, and that is a lot (and also a lot of money.)
Following on from this the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation seems to be rapidly turning into a worldwide NGO, with funds that could rapidly dwarf all Aid budgets combined. I personally wish them every success (we've had philanthropists in the UK too eg. Thomas Guy founding Guy's Hospital) but inevitably some will question their priorities and accountability in time.
Complain about this comment
britboy 10;
"Still, it's good that MA can condsider forgiving this"
I didn't say I forgive it. IF ,and that's a big if, I ever vote for him, it won't be because I actully like him but because among the choices available he'd be the lesser of the evils.
He did more than lay off workers for one day, people who depended on checks from the Federal Government such as from social security were also put on hold. He wreaked his own tornado of havoc. Why? Because when he was on Air Force One sitting with President Clinton up front which few in Congress get to do, Clinton talked about what he wanted to talk about, not Gingrich's agenda. It was a matter of Gingrich's ego. I viewed much of that Contract with America as a Contract on America. Personally I don't like him but sometimes I have to admit his views are correct, at least from the point of view of what is best for America.
The Republicans are still up to their old tricks. They shut down payments for Unemployment Insurance for those on extended benefits (past 26 weeks) for several weeks until the Democrats had a plan to pay for it. Funny they didn't shut down the government when President Bush gave the wealthy a big tax cut and then had no way to pay for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq without more massive borrowing by the Federal government. You can chalk up one trillion dollars or more of US government debt to that little oversight.
To anyone who thinks I'm partial against Democrats, liberals, or Europeans you should be aware that I will denounce stupidity, crass greed where some benefit enormously at the expense of others no matter what label those responsible for it wear on their chests. It's just the Europeans and Democrats do it more.
Complain about this comment
Buzet23
Re Your #260 & J_Rohilla's #247
J_E is besotted with the EU and with anything that gives authority & power to a central core: IMO he does not see the Rights & Responsibilities of individual Citizens or of sovereign Nations as being anywhere near as important building the magical, mystical 'ever closer union'.
However, I can honestly state it is my experience over the last 3 years since retiring to Finland that an increasing number of Finns are no longer enamoured with the EU-Brussels entity in the manner of J_R.
It seems many Finns are beginning to realise the initial years of 'growth' & 'investment' generated by Finland's entry to the EU are now long over: Finland is a 'net' contributor to the EU which for those thousands among the rising level of unemployment seems curious at the least, then others have seen over recent years transfer of key-Finnish product manufacture to other EU & non-EU nations & wonder how they signed up to letting the lowest bidder destroy their employment/market share; still more have been pondering if the EUro-zone was such a good idea for Finland because it is contributing to the bail-out of zone-Nations who have never, ever managed Finland's estimable Fiscal probity?
When all this is taken alongside Finland's Forest Industry being cut to the roots by unchecked competition from Russia resulting in the Timber-town of Varkaus (28,000 popn) being virtually moth-balled it is no wonder increasing numbers of Finns no longer see the glib, bright, horizons of the EU.
Some, still a minority (though a few Finnish Politicians are starting to voice these concerns), are recognising the malevolent 'big-Business/big-Government' vested interests of Brussels at the expense of Citizens.
J_R won't ever accept Your alternatives because for him the 'greater good' is some mythical supra-National economic-social-cultural body: A stark contrast to the reality of protesting, heaving mass of discontent the EU's centralising, one-size-fits-all, no-challenges allowed policies have brought about.
Complain about this comment
Huaimek
Re #252
How right You are!
All the prevailing statistics of January to September 2008 pointed to a continued rise in Economic-Fiscal growth across the World.
In various Board-rooms across that World various high-powered, highly educated, hugely motivated Bankers, Investment Fund Managers & Captains of Industry pronounced "..onward and upward.." as they submitted their 'Bonus claims' for being such highly intelligent 'Masters of the Universe' (credit: Tom Wolfe).
At the back of a few of those Board-rooms the odd Junior Exec and even the occasional wizened-prune muttered, "..We hear whispers Lehamn Brothers are going to default..".
When all those high-powered, highly educated, hugely motivated Senior Execs had stopped laughing they went to lunch... Afterall, the statistics were undeniable...
Lehman Bros folded 15th Sept. 2008!
The World Economy & therefore the World's Population has still NOT recovered from the statistics that J_R & others are so fond of quoting.
Complain about this comment
#267 cool_brush_work
While I don't dispute what you say re: growing Finnish dissatisfaction with EU/Eurozone membership, in your specific example of Varkaus you descibe competition from Russia being the issue.
Are you implying that EU/Eurozone membership makes Finland less competitive in this case because of economic/currency or regulation issues?
At the risk of repeating myself, the Eurozone is a level playing field. If you want to argue it slopes gently downhill towards the Rhine, then you could equally well argue it always has, ever since the Hanseatic League.
(Also, please don't call it a bail-out. You will get the money back one day, with interest. Equally, I very much hope that the remaining €600bn in the pot stays where it belongs.)
Complain about this comment
#268 cool_brush_work
"statistics of January to September 2008"
I think you'll find that Warren Buffet described the US economy as being in recession in all but name early in 2008, but I'm unable to provide a link.
Personally I decided things were going nipples skyward globally with the nationalisation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (September 6th).
But it's hats off to the queueing Geordies (residents of Newcastle-upon-Tyne locality) for attempting to warn the world exactly a year beforehand. (First run on a UK bank for 150 years, zero reimbursement for all shareholders upon takeover.)
Complain about this comment
#262. At 11:33am on 05 Aug 2010, KCDavid,
You are right, MAII baits all of us, but unfortunately for him he over the last few years has increasingly shown decreasing reason, maybe he will head to the hills whilst his imagined empire gradually folds. However nobody wants any country to have an economic collapse and even though I dislike the US concept that you should aspire to those who have been promoted above their level of incompetence I still prefer people to try. The US is in a perilous state and the UK and EU not far behind, the more the vested interests control things the worse it will get whether that be US, EU or any other behind the scenes body.
Complain about this comment
#267. At 5:28pm on 05 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work
Interesting comment although I don't know Finland but I completely agree with the conclusion as Jukka seems always to have been blinkered that nothing is cast in stone.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (260):
People who shun theory and statistics are usually people who either don't get them or they understand that both theory and statistics speak against them.
For example the usual mistake that people make about theories is that a theory either explains it all or it doesn't explain anything. That is wrong set of thinking. All theories model and base themselves on what is happening in reality, they all make a view into a reality and make claims under certain conditions. What you have to understand that using just one theory to explain things is insufficient, you need to use multiple theories, multiple ideas from different schools of thinking in order to get rough understanding on what is happening and how the system works.
Our current economic crisis is just one crisis in a long line of economic crisis. It doesn't make our current economic theories void, they are still valid, the only thing is that the system has changed so much, that they need another theory to supplement them. One theory that has probably seen reinforcement and validation is George Soros theory about reflexivity...
"Reflexivity is discordant with equilibrium theory, which stipulates that markets move towards equilibrium and that non-equilibrium fluctuations are merely random noise that will soon be corrected. In equilibrium theory, prices in the long run at equilibrium reflect the underlying fundamentals, which are unaffected by prices. Reflexivity asserts that prices do in fact influence the fundamentals and that these newly-influenced set of fundamentals then proceed to change expectations, thus influencing prices; the process continues in a self-reinforcing pattern. Because the pattern is self-reinforcing, markets tend towards disequilibrium. Sooner or later they reach a point where the sentiment is reversed and negative expectations become self-reinforcing in the downward direction, thereby explaining the familiar pattern of boom and bust cycles"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexivity_%28social_theory%29#Reflexivity_in_Economics
And in case of statistics, I usually give the source of statistics that I quote. If you have any problem about them, you either dig into them or you find other statistics and views that counter the earlier point made.
Now going to your question on am I prepared to talk about alternative to the current EU? The answer is yes, I'm always open to new ideas and new looks. However in order for me to discuss about alternatives to the EU, it is you who has to make the effort to bring up an alternative and give a reason for it.
For example, you suggest that we would be better of by having an loose common market with open border, free trade and less regulation. If you are seriously suggesting that, then you have to go back to 70s and 80s, look on the problems of that era, and give explanation on how you solve those problems and why it would all work now much better...
Let me help you with giving you few questions that you need to answer for you to be taken seriously...
1) How do you prevent states from competing with each other by doing competitive devaluations of their currencies? If you don't prevent competitive devaluations, give a reason why it is better that states can make competitive devaluations compared to a situation where they can't.
2) Using multiple currencies in a business or manufacturing process incurs extra costs from both currency trade and from getting protecting against currency fluctuations. How do businesses and manufacturers get these costs back?
3) In a loose common market, how do you prevent bigger states and major corporations from abusing the system by either setting up their own rules to prevent the functioning of the common market or using their market power to manipulate different subparts of the market to function for their gain?
4) What is the right amount of regulation? Is the regulation common or can individual countries set up their own regulations?
4.1) Having no regulation at all can lead into a situation where states and corporations act against either the common good or act against their neighbors wellbeing. In China it has been estimated that pollution costs approx 10% of yearly GDP, this cost is due to China having unregulated markets where industries can pollute. ( http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-06/06/content_609350.htm )
Is there need for common regulation or not?
4.2) If states can set up their own regulations, how do you prevent states from protecting their markets by setting up their own regulations and standards that are made so that it becomes harder for foreign exporters to act in the market?
These are just four simple questions drawn out from the lesson of history, there are many more, but you could be a good sport and start from these to back up your alternative to the EU.
To cool_brush_work (267):
If I'm not mistaken, you live in a rural area in a distant part of Finland? Have you considered that you only see and hear what people in your region are thinking and talking about?
Because let me tell you, people in big cities and university towns with industries and high technology companies, they are very much international and European. There is no regret on being in the EU or being in the Eurozone, absolutely non, and that is what counts as these places and people pay the bills of this country.
Complain about this comment
#269. At 6:58pm on 05 Aug 2010, britboy10,
Regarding Finland's Forests I recall there was quite a discussion about that some while back and I think Jukka and Alice plus others contributed.
As for the Eurozone being a level playing field, I can't really see that, ok Germany and France set it up for their benefit and organised where the ECB and presidency would be. How though were dissimilar economies, industrial bases, lifestyles ever a level playing field. Does a German worker have the same way of thinking as a Greek worker, or a Polish worker the same as a French worker. The playing field is rolling I think.
Complain about this comment
#273. At 8:28pm on 05 Aug 2010, Jukka Rohila
1) How do you prevent states from competing with each other by doing competitive devaluations of their currencies? If you don't prevent competitive devaluations, give a reason why it is better that states can make competitive devaluations compared to a situation where they can't.
Buzet23, are you seriously thinking that in the current scenario States are not competing, why for instance does Germany so much want to harmonise all taxes, could it just be that they understand their high taxation is counter productive and wish to inflict that on every EU country. In such a situation who needs devaluation, just stitch the low taxation countries.
2) Using multiple currencies in a business or manufacturing process incurs extra costs from both currency trade and from getting protecting against currency fluctuations. How do businesses and manufacturers get these costs back?
Buzet23, what a loss leader this is, how many currencies do most international companies trade in as they have to deal with wherever they manufacture, and increasingly that is not the EU.
3) In a loose common market, how do you prevent bigger states and major corporations from abusing the system by either setting up their own rules to prevent the functioning of the common market or using their market power to manipulate different subparts of the market to function for their gain?
Buzet23 - I think you referring to Germany and France since the inception of the current EU, how could it be even more incestuous?
4) What is the right amount of regulation? Is the regulation common or can individual countries set up their own regulations?
Buzet23 - Common regulation across the board on all areas is a dictatorship, on things of common benefit it is possible, e.g. social mobility, freedom of movement.
4.1) Having no regulation at all can lead into a situation where states and corporations act against either the common good or act against their neighbors wellbeing. In China it has been estimated that pollution costs approx 10% of yearly GDP, this cost is due to China having unregulated markets where industries can pollute. ( http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-06/06/content_609350.htm )
Buzet23 - Just what is the common good, what a communist, or fascist or ecological terrorist thinks, your ideas of common good are probably different from most people but are you or they right and who are you to enforce your opinions on someone else because you have a bee in your bonnet, which most political activists usually do.
As for China, is the EU or USA much better, marginally maybe, but pollution regulation has simply shifted manufacturing to those countries that don't and never will have it. Is that progress or shooting oneself in the foot?
Complain about this comment
#273. At 8:28pm on 05 Aug 2010, Jukka Rohila,
"4.2) If states can set up their own regulations, how do you prevent states from protecting their markets by setting up their own regulations and standards that are made so that it becomes harder for foreign exporters to act in the market?"
I missed your last point,
As for this just look at the level of protectionism that exists within the current EU and how certain countries ignore the laws that have been installed to prevent this. Of course the small countries will be taken to the ECJ and penalised but the larger ones just ignore the judgements and pay the fines. Any guess on which two countries lead the ECJ judgement count. Therefore does your current EU have any advantage, I think not and if you examine the ECJ case files you will see that.
Complain about this comment
To Buzet23 (275):
You didn't even try to answer my questions, you just only managed to raise new questions...
For example you answer to the first question just raised another...
5) How do you prevent states from giving subsidies by giving special tax breaks that are tailored and allocated to certain companies and industries?
Another question raised from your answer to 4.1
6) In a conflict situation between two states, is there arbitration process between states or not, and if there is, how does it work and who controls it?
For example Germany could say that environmental regulations harm their industries and they need to unregulated environmental legislation, thus leading German heavy industries to dump their waste products to Tonava, thus causing tensions to rise with other countries that share Tonava.
How is this conflict solved?
Now going back to your answers...
1) Competitive devaluations and tax subsidies are bad because they distort the function of the market by giving them unfair competitive advantage to some companies thus leading them to overcome their competitors weather or not they are more efficient/productive, it also leads firms to relocate to regions and countries were they wouldn't in normal circumstances locate. This all leads to the system becoming more inefficient and leading loss of production.
2) You didn't give an answer to this question at all... Let me continue to give more background... US companies have an competitive advantage over foreign companies because their whole business process uses only one currency: end products that they sell are traded in US dollars and raw materials from oil to minerals are traded in US dollars. The Euro tries to do the same thing and in some extend has already been able to do it, when companies trade inside the Eurozone, they don't have currency exchange costs and currency exchange risks, thus having lower costs.
3) This means all states, bigger states do it more, smaller states do it less. This is more less prevented by having common regulation and common authority in the that forces all states to follow common rules.
4) No it isn't. It is maximizing the common good, because if we all just follow what is good for us, we have so much conflicts and so much stepping on each others shoes that we loose more than we gain.
4.2) The amount of cases is very small compared to what the situation was for example in the 60s, 70s or 80s, and ECJ judges everybody.
You know, you really need to step it up. You first want to have serious discussion about alternatives to the current EU and when you are asked hard question about this alternative, you spend few minutes putting up counters and empty rhetoric without giving much thought about the whole thing. Why don't you be a good sport and give serious answers to these questions.
Complain about this comment
Buzet :o), re Finnish woods. Peculiar I have now an old book on hands; let me see. written in 1932.
"From old times Rus adds to far away lands a beginning "za"/beyond. Zaonezhje, "beyond Onega". An ancient Novgorod holding, that got lost from our maps, is now called Karelia - all over, apart from the small semi-island in the North-West of the Onega lake, which is still called Zaonezhje.
People here retained clean Novgorod speak, ancient "tellings", songs and "it was-be"-s? ballads?
re what took place/was.
In the village I was shown the cut from the thick pine tree izba of Zaharova, the songs teller. A tall old woman was washing the linen, rolling it by a big wooden? roller. On the roller were cut out herbs, weeds, some birds.
On seeing me she refused to sing.
"I sing only when Motherland starts crying in me".
I didn't get it. :o)
- Well, how to tell it out to you, sweetie, - got disappointed the old woman.
Say, you go out at evening to the lake. It lies before your eyes as a silver headscarf. A leaf on the tree - even that doesn't tremble. And it so sweet becomes on heart, motherland starts crying in me - and then I sing."
:o)
...
...
I was told Zaharova does war recruit' songs (weeps on departure to the military), other traditional weeps, and songs of brides.
...
Three years previously I was able to record here blind singer Pertuev who did Kalevala runas. He walked from izba to izba, took owner at hands, and thus, looking in front of him by bleak un-seeing eyes sang beautiful saga-s, born among granite rocks, waterfalls and white nights.
....
In summers white nights turn Zaonezhje in the country of incredible beauty. In the granite shores of the lakes stands white water poured up to the ridge. As if huge pieces of foil are forged into stone. In this transparent foil get reflected sky, with its un-ending glow, and furry paws of fir-trees, but very rarely get reflected stars. Star light is so weak in this night that the water is unable to catch it and swing a bit on the light lake sway.
...
Forest darkness is full of wet smells of ? those plush short green creepy ones :o); from under the rootes pour strong wells. Water in them is cold and brown, it smells by iron. In the lakes, in the swamps of Zaonezhje lie on the bottom grains of iron ? stocks.
In the lakes water smells of pine-tree bark.
The moment wave starts up in the lake - the lake starts tossing on the shore tons of pine-tree bark. The steam-boats go in this like with great carefullness, as it is full of pine tree ?chunks.
Karelia sent down wood all the pre-war years. The whole Karelian hard land consists of the solid massive of forests. This is a country of wood-cutters, carpenters, sound of saws, mighty tug boats, pulling the rafts, wood-cutting factories, wood piles, ? ?, ? Smell of pine tree follows you everywhere here, even in the cars of "Polar Arrow" train (not to be mixed with the Red Arrow St.Pete - Moscow/Alice)
...
in these forests one gets shocked seeing wooden palaces built by our and Canadian wood-cutters. Russian Canadians returned by hundreds home, as in the hearts, as in the heart of Zaharova "cried motherland". They brought with Canadian wood saws, clever ways of cutting and falling trees. Their wooden palaces are beautified by ? freez frieze? - es, cut out of wood. In the ? friezes? are Northern deer, fur-trees, and scenes from Kalevala, and all this shines by a pale colour of mead, light nearly invisible polishing, done on wood.
... etc.
Complain about this comment
#274 Buzet23
"Finland's Forests"
I've had a look and found references mainly to future volatility of Russian Export tarriffs making wood-processing in Finland unviable in the medium-long term. Thank you for the pointer, but I'm still not sure what effect (if any) Finland's EU/Eurozone membership has on this issue.
"playing field is rolling"
While I think I agree with what you say, we'll have to agree to disagree on the terminology used. My definition did not mean: equal pay, opportunities, working conditions, training, skill set, work ethic between different European nationalities' workers in their home countries, rather: transparent, non-protectionist, currency-neutral and harmonised trading, operating and employment conditions for individual businesses to operate within.
In the UK most of the media attention seems to have been focussed on the Working Time Directive and EU Competition Law, which we are subject to along with all other EU and Eurozone members. For countries within the Eurozone, companies' costs, revenues and sales competitiveness is set in stone to a great degree according to the level at which their historical currency was fixed against the Euro. If the ratio was too high, everyone's happily earning more Euro's - for a while, until the crunch.
Complain about this comment
#250 MarcusAurellius
´ even potatoes have have eyes--´
And like you, most have ´a corn´---my buddies are everywhere !
Complain about this comment
#253 KCDavid
It WAS controversial, now we hope it´s true.
The Euro didn´t stay low for long, but maybe some non-Euro industries bought at its low or at least under $1.30.
Germany appears leaving first gear, so the next few months are important even if USA is cannot do its share.
Complain about this comment
I thought: "it was"/in Russian "it bylo" - a "byllina" /'a was-be" story song - a ballad?
Complain about this comment
Buzet23,
I agree that the USA is in a perilous state. I remember 2 years ago, when the stock market was crashing and I was trying to keep perspective.
And now, everything in the foreign wars department is in tatters. So, I do worry about that and the deficit (not too much...too painful). But, optimism is the key ...isn't it?... to improving the economy...plus the fact that life goes on (and on)
Here we rely on consumer confidence and its down so its like depressing to read the newspapers.
And to Bro_Wilky, from Canada, Canada is fine as it is....a role model in many ways. They are our most important trade partner--I remember.
Sorry for the friendly fire.:)
Complain about this comment
britboy10
Re #221
After a really interesting & in parts thoughtful, lengthy contribution You boiled it all down to, "..As regards 'EU Membership' itself it was finally settled by referendum in 1975. If you weren't old enough to vote then tough, demanding further referenda until you get the result you want, is what some accuse the EU of, re: EU Constituion.."
So, I take it, the general practise of 2nd referenda is not allowable, except of course, when it suits the 'pro-EU'!?
Facetiousness aside, I was old enough and did vote in April 1975 in favour of PM Wilson's renegotiated accession terms to the EEC.
Now, if You could point me to the "..TOUGH.." bit by which I voted for myself, my children & grandchildren to be tied into a Political Union formulated and set-in-motion in 1992 by the Maastricht Treaty I might consider the 'tough' a harsh but reasonable argument?
Then again, no I really wouldn't accept Your 'tough' take it & no chance to leave it stance: I wouldn't have accepted it in 1975, '85, '95, 2010 or any other time on this earth!
Since when were things so written in stone that nothing else was ever to be feasible: When did 'capital punishment', 'no divorce', 'compulsory military service', 'no homosexuality', to say nothing of 'no devolved UK Governments'..... become inviolate?
Oh wait! That's right! They all were once, like so many other parts of the 'political' ruling scenario, but they are not any longer! Maybe change of mind is possible, maybe different circumstances are acceptable, just maybe "..tough.." isn't the way forward!?
Perhaps the time-honoured UK unwritten Constitution (though disparaged by all the fashionable pro-continental who would throw away 2,000 years of heritage for 1 Treaty of Rome, circa 1957!) has it better as a Democratic method than what You appear to consider as the reality: It is an amendable political-cultural-social feast - - with each Parliament not bound to follow the Laws of the previous one, not even at International Treaty level - - if sufficient are opposed/concerned & minded to change/reform/remove whatever was put in place by a previous Parliament, they may do so. And so it is with the UK/England Citizens if the numbers are there: They too may by Right & Responsibility to themselves & off-spring, as well as to their sovereign Nations choose to no longer continue what was formerly agreed - - there is a Devolved Northern Ireland, Scotland & Wales Government contrary to previous Treaties etc. - - thus the membership of the EU (for which no British Citizen has ever cast any Vote either 'For' or 'Against') is there to be upheld or done away with.
Nothing 'tough' about it: Were a Referendum on the 4 Union Nations' membership to be held it would be called 'Democracy' in action.
Re #242 & "..UK Home Secretary.." intervention:
I'm afraid in this one You are completely in error in Your understanding of the authority & powers of the relatively recently Devolved Scottish Executive and century-plus independent Scottish Judiciary.
Neither the UK Home Secretary nor the UK PM could have intervened in the matter of the Megrahi release: The Westminster Parliament, WhiteHall and No.10 simply do not have that political-judicial jurisdiction.
It was a matter entirely for the totally independent Scottish Legal system which, as in any good Democracy, is kept separate from the Scottish 'political' executive and therefore independently could consider and draw its conclusions on the merits of the medical condition fitting the Scottish Penal systems requirements for Megrahi's early release.
As to the 4 US Senators - - fishing for additional votes by playing on the understandable already tender emotions of the American Locherbie/PanAm victims is very unedifying - - whether one agrees with the Megrahi release (& I certainly didn't) it is a matter for the Scottish and those US Politicians just bring discredit on the notable & distinguished House they claim to represent.
Complain about this comment
Marcus, I shall look out for the PBS documentary. It sounds interesting. We can't always get everything PBS puts out over here, but I am a big fan of Frontline World.
The phrase "Evolution is a process, not a history." is something an elderly engineer told me numerous times in order to emphasize due care with regard to the theory of natural selection. I thought, and still think, that you will appreciate the distinction if you give it some careful thought.
Anyway, I'm now going to read Jukka's latest burnt offerings, and see how that inspires me for the rest of the day.
Complain about this comment
Hello again David! So you were banned? That seems a bit harsh. I didn't think you were the type to get banned.
I note your criticisms of male pride, and must protest. Every foolish thing I do these days is done purely for the entertainment of bored women.
If christ were to come save us again, he would first have to remove the nails from my wrists and ease me from the cross, for there is little enough space in the world for two episodes of the same futile sacrifice, and we should need to share the spotlight.
Right, now I'm going to read Jukka. I've had a coffee, and have mentally braced myself for the ordeal.
Hi alice, good to see you to.
Complain about this comment
Mathiasen wrote:
"Threnodio;
You are an optimistic man. I don't spend time on telling blind people what colours are."
No, you prefer to lecture those can already see.
Complain about this comment
J_R
Re #273
You are correct in Your surmise of my location in Finland: And for sure much of my 'gossip' is of the local variety: However, of itself, Your disdain for that 'localness' reveals much about what has happened to Finland under the aegis of the EU - - have You considered it may be You that is out of touch?
Maybe it is the Finns who are 'pro-EU' who have latched onto the Brussels' gravy train, but I can tell You "..paying the bills of this country.." is a lot more than some dodgy statistics from a supra-National entity that only ever admits to non-stop growth & progression. To put it another way & I admit very harshly toward You: It is the UNEMPLOYED of Varkaus, Kemi etc. who ARE PAYING THE BILL for Your EU membership!
In part You are incorrect as to where I get my details of Finnish intellectual anxst re, the EU & EUro: My wife, formerly attached to Jyvaskyla Univ in a teaching capacity hears it increasingly in the staff-rooms & around campus!
J_R, there are many young Finnish on degree Courses who cannot see much or any advantage in the EU as it presently is constituted, i.e. not for Finland, but they are talking from comfort because many anticipate going to work abroad, but talk pessimistcally of what is going to happen to Finland!
I'm afraid even Your example of Finland's Hi-Tec specialisms isn't the panacea it once was: Look at You own Economy J_R; I mean look at the underlying figures for where those nano-technologies are going - - they are conceived in this brilliantly intuitive, industrious Nation and are going elsewhere as soon as they are up & running as 'costs' in Finland are far too high. Or put another way, the Companies get bought-out by foreign 'big-Business' or they see greater profit based outside Finland.
You need to reconsider Your allegiance to the EU as it is now: IMO it is clear it does not act in the best interest of smaller Nations such as Finland - - it is wholly unlikely ever to do so for so long as the Democratic deficit is constantly expanding between those who are Citizens and those who are exploiters of the system. There are better ways of doing things as You did start to analyse with Your 'theories' debate with Buzet23: However, You keep coming back to Brussels being the core instigator & in that sense You never will step outside the box and realise Brussels really isn't at all interested in Finland except as an adjunct to its power-aggrandizing political-economic self-interest.
I know this will seem incredibly insulting to Your Nation, but I mean it in the historic sense of how things will appear to future generations: To my way of thinking in key aspects Finland is taking shape as an 'autonomous Duchy' of Brussels much like it was to the old Russian Empire.
You don't believe it: Take an honest look at the parallels.
Complain about this comment
#277. At 9:45pm on 05 Aug 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:
"You didn't even try to answer my questions, you just only managed to raise new questions..."
Here we go again Jukka, your questions were an attempt to suggest that these were the bad things that would happen should alternatives to the current EU direction be followed. I simply pointed out that in all but one case it is what is happening already with the EU's current direction, the only point that was different is the old case of 'the common good'.
What is the common good as every politician thinks it is what they say they believe in, therefore it is ambiguous to use that term as it can mean anything. The communist party believed in the common good being what was good for the party, the left leaning current EU's definition of the common good is what Jukka? I'm sure my definition of the common good is different to yours but who are you to say your definition is correct, it is just your opinion and has no more weight than that.
"5) How do you prevent states from giving subsidies by giving special tax breaks that are tailored and allocated to certain companies and industries?"
Why should you, is that not what the current EU does to stimulate growth in certain industries and regions which are designated as needing redevelopment.
"6) In a conflict situation between two states, is there arbitration process between states or not, and if there is, how does it work and who controls it?"
Is there not already an International means of arbitration, we have the WTO, we have the UN, and we have other bodies, why do we need an EU to duplicate these bodies, surely yet another waste of limited funds.
Regarding your replies to points 1 to 4.2, you have once again just given the same old pat reply that ever increasing regulation will mean every company/industry is equal in competition. This viewpoint is fatally flawed since unless it applied to every company/industry in the world it can not and never can work. The more you prevent entities within the EU using certain business practices the more you drive business out of the EU. Competition is not a bad thing Jukka, an equal playing field with no competition would be akin to a monopoly and everything would just stagnate, is that your idea of a great EU as this is what your concept of regulation will lead to.
You didn't even acknowledge that regarding currencies it's not just Euro's and Dollars, but that there are many other currencies involved where manufacturing bases have been shifted to the developing world. Whilst a lot of trading may be in dollars the multi national manufacturing companies still have to account in local currencies to comply with local accounting laws.
So Jukka, now that we have reached a conclusion that you think a highly regulated, common good (as you believe) EU is the perfect entity, can we discuss the possibility that a loose trading block, with open borders, various accords on trading, working, social practices could actually work better. You have to remember that your view is not necessarily correct and shared by many others, and be prepared to discuss the details of a loose association. For instance, I have certain ideas of what the various accords on trading, working, social practices should be but I am not in any way fixed on that, but one thing I am convinced about is that the current EU's rules and regulations are over the top and destroying any chance of Europe becoming a viable entity.
Complain about this comment
britboy10
Re #270
Basically, I take that as a 'yes' statistics presented by the 'pro-EU' or 'anti-EU' are not worth the paper they are written on.
PS: Northern Rock made a 'profit' this last quarter - - of course, to define 'profit' we have first to consider the statistic that Tax-payers' money bailed-out it, LloydsTSB etc. and the 'profit' is actually Tax monies no one gave the Government permission to use in the first place!
PS: As an indicator of how 'profit' is made - - my 1 remaining LloydsTsb account went over-drawn 3 months ago by 21pence - - Lloyds Charged me 21 Pounds for that oversight (I use online banking & just forgot an annual UK bill). I appealed and believe it You will, the Lloyds phone-operator actually said, "..in these difficult times the Bank cannot afford to waive such sums.."!
After I had finished spluttering I laughed & then just sank into depression those b######s could think to get their employees to say that to customers after all the Banks did to the UK, EU & World Economy!
Complain about this comment
TY, Democracythreat:)
Male pride is safe,
From me.
Every time I tried to comment it said "error" in a dialog box so, I thought "they" were trying to tell me something...
But, no..just a strange coincidence, I guess.
Complain about this comment
#279. At 10:02pm on 05 Aug 2010, britboy10,
The level the euro transition was set at did supposedly reflect the quality of the countries economy but as we have seen recently in many cases those figures were cooked. Those rates were an opportunity to devalue if the economy was in danger, but I don't believe any country took advantage of that opportunity due to political prestige etc. Now as you say, it just a case of marking time until the next crunch.
"For countries within the Eurozone, companies' costs, revenues and sales competitiveness is set in stone to a great degree according to the level at which their historical currency was fixed against the Euro."
I'm not sure that effect still operates as the Euro has been around a long time now and by logic this effect must diminish in time.
Complain about this comment
I have carefully considered Jukka's views, and find that 98.3% of what he writes concerning statistics is foolishness.
Complain about this comment
#278. At 9:56pm on 05 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland,
That is a nice tale, it must be lovely to see.
Complain about this comment
#291. At 09:02am on 06 Aug 2010, KCDavid,
Are you sure your wife didn't put some sort of children's control into your computer, like "if web page = bbc blogs, return 'error'", lol.
Complain about this comment
Buzet,
"it must be lovely to see"
:o)
Well, one thing from here, roughly my dacha whereabouts, - you've seen.
The colour of the stone :o) - Napoleon's grave.
That big round eh mausoleum in Paris.
We have kindly provided the stone :o))))))))), to finish the matter up :o)))))
Dragged all the way from these swamps :o), the whole thing.
Complain about this comment
Top quality mind it; nothing like Russia for mausoleums :o)))))))))))))))
Always there :o) for peace ? violators, to make sure :o)))))))) you know o;)))))) like, safely packed for centuries ahead... just in case :o))))))
PS reminds me of Moscow red square guards' category of Russian jokes
like, one young guards?man, after his first working day comes to his boss and says Excuse me Tovarisch colonel (or whatever) but I think someone in the mausoleum is quietly humming "International" song at nights :o)))))))))))
to which the colonel says ? forgot
Something like "ah, damn Kremlin, lately give us cheap fake medications; small dose of sedatives again! OK, thanks for telling me, I'll try to get stronger stuff" :o))) and all
Complain about this comment
#297. At 09:40am on 06 Aug 2010, WebAliceinwonderland,
Nice one Alice, I wonder if this is happening in the mausoleum called Brussels as well, with those cuts everywhere maybe the old tendencies are coming back, lol.
Complain about this comment
I never believed for a minute that the Greek economy was going to bring the Euro down, and of course it didn't. It will take much more than that.
The Euro did indeed take a beating this year, but every major currency does from time to time. I remember a time, about a decade ago, when the US Dollar was trading about 20% above the Euro. Now it is the other way round, and even the Greek crisis did not come close to change that.
And of course there are regional differences within the Eurozone, and a strong Euro may be better for some countries than for others. But isn't that true for other currencies as well? In 2007-2008 the North Dakota economy grew by more than 7% whilst Alaska took a 2% dip. It is hard to imagine how both can benefit equally from the strength of the same Dollar.
So whilst the economic issues for Europe are real, there is no indication that the Euro will collapse. In fact, you can argue that the recent crisis has taught us that the Euro has the strength to survive.
Complain about this comment
#299. At 10:42am on 06 Aug 2010, John Hudson,
"So whilst the economic issues for Europe are real, there is no indication that the Euro will collapse. In fact, you can argue that the recent crisis has taught us that the Euro has the strength to survive."
I think we have to accept that the strength of the Euro is down to the countries which backed it recently to enable the bail out to be made. Had Germany not coughed up then the Euro would possibly have failed, and it was touch and go whether Germany would do that as there was a lot of opposition to the bail out. Should one of Spain, Portugal, Italy or Ireland now default then will Germany pay up again, if not then how strong will the Euro actually be.
Complain about this comment
I find it rather amazing that no one has connected the fact that Russia earns most of its money from the export sale of fossil fuels with its use being the cause of global climate change that has resulted in it burning down. One nice thing about mausoleums, most of them being made of stone will survive even raging fires to stand as a memorial to what once was. They will be of interest to archeologists who happen on to them. Moscow could become the Machu picchu of a future era.
I agree about peat bogs. Once they catch fire it is very hard to put them out, they can burn for decades. Sometimes when you think they are out they are still smoldering underground only to flare up again when conditions are more suitable. There seems to be one huge forest fire in Georgia now that is virtually inaccessible. I wonder if they will spread as far as Finland. If it does, finding roasted moose and reindeer meat in the wild could put some restaurants out of business.
Complain about this comment
Way down upon the Hudson River, far far away;
"I never believed for a minute that the Greek economy was going to bring the Euro down, and of course it didn't. It will take much more than that."
Is the day of reckoning for the Euro cancelled or merely postponed? What of fundimental importance changed to the degree that will enable the Euro to survive? Is Europe heading out of the dark economic forest....or still heading into it?
Will Greece default eventually? Will the other PIIGS? In the words of the great American philosopher Yogi Berra: "It ain't over 'til it's over."
Complain about this comment
Buzet :o), just give us a whistle, when the matter is shaped and rounded up, I mean who to marinade :o)))))))))))))
And we shall certainly deliver a sarcofagus or two to Brussels; it's only to drag out of bogs here to the shore and then by ship - easy - anywhere :o)
we're considered world's experts now in marinading now that Egypt got distracted from old skills :o)
Mao etc - our hands' making :o)
Complain about this comment
yes, peat, as Margaret wrote.
peat bogs, yes.
Unfamiliar M,
that's all the result of "the greatest geo-political catastrophe of the 20th century" :o))))))))))))), as VVP calls it; the collapse of the USSR.
These aren't wild bogs but ex-peat excavation sites, industrial old holdings, like, peat was obtained there, by Moscow, for good 70 -90 yrs.
When peat was obtained there in tons and masses and trucks and roads - the sites were fenced, guarded, had own fire-alarm security and guards and systems - it was managed and never burned in the tsar time, neither during the whole USSR time.
Then there were no business people desirous to continue the business (many more lucrative ideas here :o), profit less that 200% :o)))))) in modern Russia is not considered any profit (inc. bribes one has to pay ;o)
so, like - less than 200% profit a year - nah. not a good business :o(
:o)))))
and the peat places were left forgotten. rather - built up!!!!! by cottages!!! new rich villages! and living quarters.
with fire as you correctly noticed quietly smouldering underneath for years :o))))
ok not for years, but all safety rules re those bogs' management are violated totally they say
the area is not closed for camping and picknics :o))))) shahlyk making and wood cutting :o))))) for burning down any crap
and has no own fire security brigades as before
ordinary fire extinguishers? go to those spots from city of Moscow :o)
in the result the poor old bogs catch fire here and there everyday and fire brigades equipped for high city buildings with their ladders or whatever are simply useless there with their skills
now they look high and low for old staff people who may be still remember how they managed these in the hot USSR summers.
mum returned train ticket for the 9th to Moscow back today; friends phoned today said they don't see 3 metres from the balcony, white smog. wind blows to Moscow from those bogs.
Complain about this comment
so, as min, re moscow fires - it's not weather apocalipsys but mis-management of ordinary boring bogs.
as they say - Someone's heroic deed - is always the result of someone else's mis-management. :o)
that's why Russians have a higher percentage of heroes:o)))))) in population ;o)))))))))) than anyone else on Earth ;oo))))
today Moscow powers announced a 50,000 roubles award to anyone who reports on someone else making a barbecue in those quarters :o), burning up old leaves :o) or whatever. aha. But Russians hate "reporters"; no one will report even for money. to say nothing of "citizen's duty"
Old training, bad memories of KGB experiences, re reporting any thing to powers. Absolutely dis-trained to report as a result :o))))))) like, thank you very much :o), we'll better burn up alive but won't say a word :o))))
plain wondrous the place didn't go up in flames before, with no laws and rules whatsoever, do in those forests all you wish.
quote from today's int'l chatter box:
"well I drove around in my location (4 km away from Sheremetevo airport/Alice) - North of Moscow and region - feeling of post-apokalypsys: temperature 40C, stinks and foams so, that I, a smoker of 28 years, am coughing, visibility 300x50 metres. Many people in face masks which I haven't seen ever. Some of them are ? weaving with a hand fan! apparently in order to filter in more smoke :o) I locked up in my room where it is +28 and without smoke. Will try to drive parents into my room (air conditioner/Alice) as well."
And the latest joke:
"Smoked herring recepie a-la Moscow"
Buy a frozen herring, put it out to your balcony for 3 hrs, take it back into the room, that's it.
:o))))))
Complain about this comment
To cool_brush_work (288):
I'm off for the weekend, but before I go, I wanted to comment some things...
A) About paying the bill...
The reason why people are unemployed in Varkaus and in Kemi is because these towns and regions failed to diversify their industrial structure. They relied too much to one industry and now as that one industry is scaling down or moving its activities, they pay the price of being too lax about their economic structure.
In case of Finnish pulp and paper industries, they are shutting down their older factories and mills because they don't see re-investing to these plants as being economically viable anymore. If you are going to modernize a pulp or paper mill in Finland, the pay back time for that investment is 30 years, in 30 years time we may not use paper at all. From the point of view of these companies, it is much better to invest to developing countries in Latin America or in South-East Asia where the pay back time of an investment is much shorter and the consumption of paper is increasing.
This structural change would have had happened sooner or later, actually it was much postponed by the availability of cheap wood from Russia. As of now this cheap source of material can't be used, there is no reason to postpone what these companies should have done 10 years ago.
B) About universities and the EU...
No offense to University of Jyväskylä, but it is an old teaching school turned into a university with heavy leaning into the liberal arts. And again no offense to liberal arts people, but their outlook on life is soft and sometimes naive, and if one thing is clear, they don't know anything about business and industries.
Let me clarify this by pointing to political groupings of the student board of University of Jyväskylä...
Green students - 9
Social Democratic students - 7
Green leftist students - 6
Conservative students - 5
Centrist students - 2
Other neutral groups - 12
Now compare this to for example to my own alma matter, the student board of University of Vaasa
Bourgeois (yes, really, that is their name, their conservatives) - 9
Centrist - 1
Christian Democrats - 1
Other neutral groups - 19
The reason why students in Vaasa are so right leaning is maybe partly because it is an old business school turned into a university turned into business orientated university.
So lets make another example, student board of University of Oulu...
Centrists and Conservatives - 5
Social Democrats - 3
Other neutral groups - 25
I would make a claim that if University of Jyväskylä campus sounds or seems anti-EU, that might be because they are so left and green leaning. People who are usually anti-business and anti-industry are usually also anti-EU.
C) About high tech companies
If an high-tech company is bought out by foreign capital investors or by a foreign firm, that isn't a loose to the Finnish economy. The problem with many Finnish SMEs are that they either don't have the capital or the knowhow to expand quickly into foreign markets. By having foreign investment to these startups means in a good case that these companies can expand their research and development and headquarter activities in Finland and in a worst case their owners become just rich or at least wealthy allowing them in turn to become either angel investors or venture capitalists.
In case of manufacturing, if manufacturing is more cost efficient to do oversees and the company can do it, then that is again opportunity and not a loose to the Finnish economy. If we don't take up all the cost advantages that the world offers, our companies are the ones who will loose in the markets. On the other hand, some manufacturing is cost efficient to do in Finland, for example many international companies have big manufacturing units in Finland, including for example ABB and GE, and in Jyväskylä EADS.
Having foreign capital and foreign companies working in Finland is just a good thing. What we have to do is to offer them a competitive advantage to stay and expand they activities in Finland.
D) About being autonomous Duchy of Brussels
Being autonomous Duchy of Russian empire suited Finns very well in the 19th century. It allowed great opportunities for individuals and companies. It also allowed much freedom and slow moving into democracy. The whole relationship went sour only when the Russian empire changed this partnering relationship into venture to assimilate the Finnish people to become Russians.
The big difference between the Russian empire and the European Union is that the union is build up and meant for all the European nations, and not for one nations. For example the European Union motto is "United in diversity" which according to the EU Commission...
"The motto means that, via the EU, Europeans are united in working together for peace and prosperity, and that the many different cultures, traditions and languages in Europe are a positive asset for the continent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motto_of_the_European_Union
The reason why Finns wanted to become independent from Russian empire was largely to protect the Finnish language, culture and way of life from being overran by Russians. The European Union from the ground up protects and appreciates these things that we value, thus there is no reason why we can't exchange some of our sovereignty to enlarged freedom and opportunities for our people and companies.
Do remember that states work for their people, not for their selfs. If the Finnish state can provide more freedom and opportunities to Finnish people by pooling their resources and authority in the European Union, then that is what they must do as that is in the interest of the people.
Complain about this comment
Jukka_Rohilla
Re #306
I hope You have a very good weekend: The forecast is more fine weather.
J_R, I know You actually won't understand this, but I will write it anyway.
Your #306 is breathtaking in the extreme: Breathtaking in its complete lack of thought, concern, even the merest hint of attachment to Your fellow countrymen!
I am not surprised: You are the person who in previous debates has written, "..a Nuclear War is winnable", and You are the person who described discussion of Your Finnish forefathers' efforts in defence of Finland against the USSR as "..passe..".
I am quite sure as other contributors read Your #306 some, if not all will share at least a portion of my astonishment at how little You appear to identify with those around You: I.e. the Human Experience - - my goodness, what an ideal EU-Brussels' clone You appear to have become - - even a University's entire populace can be earmarked/defined/annotated by the membership of its Board!
And, the EU has a bright, sparkly slogan/motto so it must be right!?
I know You won't understand this either: However, it has to be said - - You frighten me, You really, really do!
I suspect a whole lot more Finns, EUropeans etc. would feel the same instinct were they to read the incredible, uncompromising tone of #306.
Complain about this comment
WebAlice
Re #305
Quote, "...mis-management.. that's why Russia has higher percentage of heroes.." plus "..smoked herring.. a la Moscow.. balcony..".
Priceless wit & wisdom!
The Russian soul bitingly accurate and as ever not far from the reality most of us try to avoid facing.
On the serious note it was 2002 when Putin first suggested easing restrictions on 'logging' activity - - the Russian timber industry minus almost all rules & regulations now create the forest fires: WebAlice, the same forests extend right across Finland into Sweden & they haven't had fires like that despite these extraordinary temperatures or in the last several decades.
Somebody/ies making lots of roubles from the misery inflicted!?
Complain about this comment
I can understand that a heat wave in Russia can make some it her citizens to think of Winter War.
Perhaps it makes them feel cooler.
Complain about this comment
What i want to know is:
Are the fires currently destroying Russia
in reputation as well as economically
and causing their own people to suffer
what are these fires doing to air quality in Europe and England?
When will we realise we are all part of this globe and must help each other
if fire were raging in Calif as they often do, Arizona and Canada would come and help
are we helping Russia to contain these fires?
Complain about this comment
#306. At 2:21pm on 06 Aug 2010, Jukka Rohila,
Quite so CBW, I had to read it twice to be certain, so the European Union has a motto "united in diversity", which loosely means united in disarray. It also seems that lefties and greens are anti-EU, that's funny as I'm most certainly not of those leanings, but then once again Jukka mixes being anti the current direction EU with being anti-EU and anti-European as to him if you don't agree with the current EU direction you are both anti-EU and anti-European.
Alice,
Those fires sound nasty, there are reports in the French news sources that some nuclear facilities are in danger, have you heard of that?
Complain about this comment
democracythreat @#293
Pliny The Elder discovered that some antidotes to poison contained a grain of salt. Does that mean 1.7% = a grain of salt?
Complain about this comment
Re #310
It was Swedes who first alerted us to the Chernobyl disaster, since the radioactive cloud was initially pushed northwest by the wind.
And it was Norwegians who first detected increased radioactivity in waters moving from Polarny area, where Soviet Northern Fleet was dumping "hot" nuclear reactors off Severomorsk and Severodvinsk.
And it was Japanese who were first alerted by a similar phenomeon in the Sea of Japan, off Vladivostok.
Complain about this comment
300. At 11:23am on 06 Aug 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
I think we have to accept that the strength of the Euro is down to the countries which backed it recently to enable the bail out to be made. Had Germany not coughed up then the Euro would possibly have failed, and it was touch and go whether Germany would do that as there was a lot of opposition to the bail out. Should one of Spain, Portugal, Italy or Ireland now default then will Germany pay up again, if not then how strong will the Euro actually be.
---
Yes Buzet23, Germany was indeed instrumental in supporting the Euro, and there is no guarantee that they can repeat that every time when there is an economic problem anywere in the Eurozone.
I think that I should clarify what I meant by a 'collapse' of the Euro. I was talking about a total collapse in the sense that the whole concept of a common European currency will have to be abandoned. In that sense I really don't believe that the Euro will fail in our lifetimes.
But I did not want to imply that the Euro will always be strong. If Spain or Italy gets itself into trouble next month or next year there will be another decision point for Germany and others whether they can afford to prop up their currency. And if they can't they will have to accept that their fate is linked to the Euro.
But the Euro is no different than other big currencies. The USD may be worth far less than what it used to be. But does that mean that the Dollar has 'failed' or 'collapsed'? No, it doesn't. It may be worth less Euros or Yens than it used to be, but the greenback is still the trusted currency for 350 million people in the US and many outside. To my knowledge there is no one seriously considering that North Dakota should get its own North Dakota Dollar just because its economy is in a different shape than that of Alaska. It is the same with the Euro. The Mark is dead and so is the Drachma. There is no going back. For better or for worse, the economic fates of Greece and Germany are linked together.
Complain about this comment
302. At 11:42am on 06 Aug 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Is the day of reckoning for the Euro cancelled or merely postponed? What of fundimental importance changed to the degree that will enable the Euro to survive? Is Europe heading out of the dark economic forest....or still heading into it?
Will Greece default eventually? Will the other PIIGS? In the words of the great American philosopher Yogi Berra: "It ain't over 'til it's over."
----
Well Marcus AureliusII, it depends on what you and Yogi Berra mean by 'over'. The Greek economy will default eventually. So will the other PIIGS. So will Germany. So will America and the Greenback and China and the United Nations and Hollywood and Bollywood and American Idol and the International Space Station and eating with chop sticks or indeed with forks and knives. So will the human race and the earth and the sun. One day even the great American philosopher Yogi Berra will be 'over'.
So yes, the day of reckoning will certainly come for the Euro. But will it be in the next few years? That is very unlikely. Simply because European countries have little choice. And because it is just too hard to go back to separate currencies. Once you have mixed your cocktail it is very difficult to take the rum out.
Complain about this comment
If an economic crisis in a national economy as small as Greece's could shake Europe's financial sector and cause ministers to burn the midnight oil in capitals across the EU what will happen if next time it's the French or the Germans who have a serious economic problem?
Complain about this comment
311 Buzet 23 says:
"...the European Union has a motto "united in diversity", which loosely means united in disarray."
No it doesn't, it means variety, differences but also much in common to be used for the common good.
This quote from JF Kennedy in 1965 in a speech in Washington DC best sums it up:
"If we cannot now end our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity."
At 284 CBW talks absolute nonsense when he criticises pro Europeans by quoting:
"Perhaps the time-honoured UK unwritten Constitution (though disparaged by all the fashionable pro-continental who would throw away 2,000 years of heritage for 1 Treaty of Rome, circa 1957!)"
Throw away 2000 years of heritage? That was a time when Britain was about to become a Roman province, despised by their more sophisticated masters lasting for nearly 500 years. After that it was the dark ages and mostly servitude for the common man. According to a programme on the Normans this week, if you then as much as questioned your rulers you were likely to have your hands and feet chopped off. As for the much quoted Magna Carta, has anyone ever read it? It has nothing to do with the rights of the common man but was just a barons charter that was mostly ignored during the coming centuries.
The continent, apart from occasional warfare, was mostly becoming a successful trading block even in the early years of the last millenium when for instance the Hansa League for centuries controlled the English wool trade until Elizabeth I took many of their privileges away because of the jealousy their wealth created. Again it was jealousy between the great continental states in the last 500 years or so during the exploration of the new world that caused much of the dissent that resulted in warfare with so much cruelty and destruction.
In general the Continental countries alway had much more in common than the naysayers of the EU would like us to believe. Jukka is quite right and speaks I think for the majority of the citizens of the EU.
Complain about this comment
#307 CBW
´even the merest hint of attachment to Your fellow countrymen !´
That´s a laugh !
I have been accusing Brits that for months --and you are one of the worst culprits !
That manufacturing diversity is no sin, should now be obvious to those countries depending on service industries and those who pay your pension. ie. the average citizen who has no time to write blogs !
Complain about this comment
OK Marcus --clap your hands, $1.33 -- and climbing to HELP America. Next stop $1.40 or $1.50 ?
Those stupid ´Euros´ are really messing things up for themselves as we go to riches ?
By the way ´a corn´ goes in front ´where brave men fear to tread´.
# 317 Margaret howard -- Can you explain why the Brits on this blog generally misunderstand their history ?
Most appear proud to be edumacated in Britain ? (if thats what they call it)
Complain about this comment
Re #318
QOT, if anyone on these blogs had the least idea what You were on about You might conceivably get a reply: However, as Your knowledge of the UK/England has been demonstrated time-and-again to be bordering on nil I don't care what Your opinion of me is as it is based entirely on invalid & sometimes patently moribund views of modern UK/England & its Citizens.
At least J_R has ideas based on versions of facts & realities: Most of Your contributions referring to G.B. are away with the fairies!
Complain about this comment
#317. At 8:47pm on 06 Aug 2010, margaret howard,
There seems to be a common link between you, Jukka and QOT, you all only see what you want to and ignore the rest and indeed the obvious. Your sentence "No it doesn't, it means variety, differences but also much in common to be used for the common good. " is exactly what I commented about to Jukka, who are you or I to say what is for the common good, it is only your opinion or my opinion so please stop posturing. You talk about history because you have read some books, but they only reflect the passed down opinion of people the author met and what he/she thought. None of us truly know what the history was, only bricks and mortar or in your case the magna carta are irrefutable, as long as the translation is correct. Reflect on all the bibles are they history or just pure fiction.
Complain about this comment
#314. At 6:08pm on 06 Aug 2010, John Hudson,
What you say is a reasoned opinion and to some extent it would be difficult to go back, but then when I go to shops in France and my Belgium the tickets still show the old and new currencies even after all this time. It makes me think that many companies are hedging their bets just in case. I was involved in the introduction of the Euro for a central bank and I never believed that many of the countries should have been members as their economies were either too weak or falsified. If it had just been the Northern European countries then there was in all probability a strong chance of success. There are just too many differences between a US state in the USA and a member state in the EU to make comparisons, after all there are a couple of thousands of years of tensions/history between EU states/regions and only a couple of hundred years of USA history.
Complain about this comment
MHoward
Re #317
How come You so often misread/misinterpret stuff that You have just quoted?
My alluding to 2,000 years of heritage is entirely reasonable as any one with a semblance of knowledge of the British Isles' history should be aware.
Margaret, not for the first time You completely get hold of the wrong end of the stick and negate the impact of anything You write because Your initial premise bears no relation to the actual content of the argument You try to make!
I don't mind in the least Your siding with J_R because with that 'braid Scots' taint in everything You write referring to the English it would be a worry if You had decided my viewpoint was anywhere near to Your liking.
Suffice to say, I don't know what '..the majority of the Citizens of the EU.." think: I leave that to prescient souls such as Your-self. Doubtless, Your bitter powers are descendant from venerable kinfolk among the saut lairds o'Dunscore!
Now, as for Magna Carta, I fear You do the 'Great Charter' a modest injustice: True enough in 1215 its main precepts were to secure the liberties of the English Church, the rights of the Baronial classes, and to restrict abuses of Royal power. However, within the tenor of its advocacy it gave rise in later centuries (circa 17th/18th) to important 'constitutional' ideas that became celebrated in debate of supposed 'English liberty'. Among the extensions found to be implicit in the Charter was the Right to Trial for the 'Commoner'. Not an insignificant advance in the Rights of Humanity.
However, as Your quote from my #284 clearly implies it is a 2,000 year inheritance and neither Roman, Norman nor Magnificat alone, but a lengthy journey which 1 Treaty of Rome in my view is far too slight to be allowed to replace. A view I believe an increasing number of EUropean Citizens may share.
That Your Scotland cannot wait to get out from under the English dominance is entirely understandable and to be applauded: That those same Scot-Nats would eagerly plunge from being 1 in a Union of 4 to 1 in a 'union against diversity' among 27 gives a remarkably new slant to the idea of 'self-determination', but just so long as it is Brussels and not London the Scots answer to I suppose that is fine by You.
I think I may be right in concluding that is possibly the view of most English too in 2010!
Complain about this comment
#320 CBW
The modernity of some sections of UK society are indeed in question, as is their ignorance and disregard for fellow citizens. I cannot recall sufficient blog comments from your ilk to withdraw the accusation with an apology.
Your world is seen from a British military onlooker perspective, no more and yet portray this as true traveling experience and knowledge of other societies without even trying to analyze your own.
This ignorance you expect others to accept as a standard ?
Sorry, others have used their lives with other than British (or other) military ideals as a basis to ask-- Who, What, When, Where and Why.
Complain about this comment
#323. At 11:18pm on 06 Aug 2010, cool_brush_work,
As to self determination I quite agree, there are far too many regions across the EU that are not truly viable by themselves but think that because they will be part of the EU their viability is not too important as the good old net payers will keep on paying. What these regions have still to understand is that after they split they will lose a lot of employment as companies shift their operational bases or downsize them. In Scotland's case they have a share of the UK's oil but since the UK paid for it's development there will be a lot of negotiations, furthermore by its location they will become a logistic nightmare being at the top end of the British Isles. When I visit South London the few Scots I meet are somewhat more aware than the nationalists and being canny Scots they don't believe in shooting oneself in the foot.
One thing that amuses me is that those in England would probably have to decide their nationality and the English could demand they take tests to prove their Englishness before becoming an English national, lol.
Complain about this comment
Re #324
"..your ilk.." plus "..military onlooker perspective.."!
Just how dull are You?
My Armed forces service ended 1981: In 2 additional careers I worked extensively in the UK & abroad on all 5 continents until 2007.
You have yet to convince anyone on these blogs You have found Your way out of the kitchen-sink melodrama You carry in Your head about how the rest of us get on with our lives.
I don't recall asking for any 'apology' & I especially don't need it from someone so lacking in validity of thought.
Complain about this comment
#323 CBW
Right to trial.
Those wanting social change were found guilty and banished to Australia.
The laws are important !
Complain about this comment
CBW you should learn to attack the argument, not the people who make it. Also, you seem to be obsessed by other people's nationality, as in my case "Doubtless, Your bitter powers are descendant from venerable kinfolk among the saut lairds o'Dunscore" - I haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
Complain about this comment
#326 CBW
The question was (and is) how much you had learned from the experiences.
A change form the British military view of the world after 1981 -- is still missing.
Maybe the socia