Can Greeks escape defaulting?
It is another day in Greece. There is by now a ritual quality to it. Flights are grounded, hospital workers are striking, tax collectors and customs officials are sitting on their hands. Hundreds of thousands of civil servants are staging a four-hour walk-out.
Yesterday it was police, firefighters and harbour police who were doing the protesting. There have been six general strikes this year.
Today the anger is directed at pension reform which was a condition of the 110bn euro bail-out from the EU and the IMF. For six long months the Greeks have been resisting the austerity being imposed on them.
For some time there have been two versions of how the Greek story would end.
Senior EU officials insist that Greece is on track. It is sticking to the terms of the bail-out. The crisis is subsiding. Growth will eventually return and Greece will manage its debts.
The only problem with this narrative is that I find almost no-one who believes it. There is a widely-held expectation that sooner or later Greece will either default or will have to restructure its debt.
The argument is a simple one. Greece has debts of more than 350bn euros. It is also borrowing from the EU/IMF bail-out fund. But its economy is shrinking, so how will Greece be able to pay off its debts once the bail-out period is over? Most economists say it is impossible and the day of reckoning lies ahead.
So the question remains - can the Greeks defy the pessimists?
Firstly the Greek government has been resolute in implementing its austerity measures aimed at reducing its deficit. Its determination has surprised outsiders.
EU/IMF officials say Athens is sticking to the bail-out conditions.
For the first six months of this year the deficit on a year-by-year basis declined 46%. The government exceeded its own target of 35%. (Revenues, however, missed their target).
This week the Greek government concluded a successful sale of treasury bills.
It was expected that austerity would persuade Greeks to keep their wallets shut. Private consumption is actually up by 1.5%.
Strikes are continuing but some say protest fatigue is setting in. The numbers on the streets are declining.
That, in itself, is surprising considering the austerity plan. Public sector pay is frozen until 2014. Pensions have been frozen for three years. The retirement age has been raised to 65. Public sector allowances have been slashed. Higher paid-civil servants are losing their holiday bonuses. VAT is at 23%. Taxes on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol have been hiked by 10%.
Today a striker was quoted as saying over pension reform: "This is the worst that has ever been passed by a socialist government... the pension reform will bury the weak, the workers."
Many public sector workers are furious but there are many others who seem to accept there is no alternative.
All of these can be interpreted as positives but they don't answer the question of whether Greece can escape its debt mountain.
And here is the difficult part. The pace of economic activity is still slowing. The economy is expected to shrink 4% this year and 2.6% next year. The government doesn't expect the economy to start growing again until 2012. The economy won't be back to pre-crisis levels until 2014 at the earliest.
As Ben May, European economist at Capital economics, points out "the fiscal tightening is going to have to go on for some time". It will get brutal. Public investment has been slashed by 40%. The fiscal adjustment Greece has agreed to amounts to 10% of GDP.
Unemployment rose to 11.9% in April and may well go higher.
Now the hope is that as costs and prices fall, Greece will regain its competitiveness and its economy will start growing again. Under the bail-out deal wages are being held down, even in the private sector, helping to boost exports and attract inward-investment. But can Greece find the economic growth to pay off debts that are predicted to reach 150% of GDP before falling.
Some like economist Nouriel Roubini are convinced it is impossible.
"The 110bn euro bail-out agreed by the EU and IMF in May only delays the inevitable default and risks making it disorderly when it happens," he said.
And that is the dilemma. Will Greece - against all the odds - somehow manage its debts three years down the road or is the inevitable just being postponed?
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~17~RS~)
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Can Greeks escape defaulting?
No. All the hard working Greeks and their progeny have emigrated and flourished in the US, Canada and Australia.
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Gavin,
You are being far too gloomy. Despite Greek austerity measures, you wrote "... Private consumption is actually up by 1.5%."
All Germany and the Germans have to do is organise some more lending and give it to Greece and the Greeks will continue to consume, the Greek economy will seem to grow and all will be well with the Euro - this will benefit the Germans who will continue to export to Greece and so have continued German economic growth. The Germans can continue to work hard, produce more and continue exporting ... the Greeks can go back to protesting as much as they like, putting up with austerity and Greece will "stick to the terms of the bail-out.".
Meanwhile, back in the Ivory Towers of the EU in Brussels, further calls will be made for more political control of the Eurozone economies and the politicians will cozy up together to sign over national financial sovereignty to the EU regardless of whether the people have or have no say in the matter.
There is no Euro crisis ... you, Stephanie and Robert are being far too pessimistic and sowing the seeds of despondency that might produce a Eurozone-wide Depression.
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“"The 110bn euro bail-out agreed by the EU and IMF in May only delays the inevitable default and risks making it disorderly when it happens," he said.”
Well Gavin, even if we agree with Mr. Nouriel Roubini’s prediction that Greece won’t be able to pay off its dept in the nearest future or even in the coming decade of the 21st century, I would ask everybody here present what will really happen if “Greece will have to choose between a default or a restructuring of its debt.” The answer is clear I think. It will restructure its dept, until the final judgement, much to the dissatisfaction of, but with the help of Berlin, Paris and all of us humble European folks who have been invited to join the EU.
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I am neither Nostradamus nor an expert in Finance.
However, having lived in this country for almost all my life, I know that Greece can be unpredictable. Sometimes in a bad way (hidden debts), but also often will good results.
We staged successful Olympic Games despite everyones' sarcastic predictions. Even during the construction of the Parthenon there was outrage regarding delays, going over the budget, and corruption believe it or not.
I share everyone's fear about a possible default, yet I still retain some optimist because I know that when the Greeks decide to focus on something (it happens rarely I admit), they can win against all odds.
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I have lived in Greece for 7 years now after I married a Greek. I think there is a great tendency to patronise and criticise Greece with limited depth to the analysis of the real situation in Greece at the moment. Here are some details I think are relevant to this discussion. Greece is a country (rightly or wrongly) where workers strike - actually this year I have seen far fewer strikes than any of the previous years I have been in Greece. My husband, a University Professor (whose salary has been cut by something approaching 20%) and his colleagues have not stiked, neither did the teachers at my son's school, because they believe we must pay now to save our children's futures. The strikes are low in number and poorly supported compared to any normal summer in Greece. People are resigned to the fact that we must suffer the austerity measures and I mean suffer - our wages have been severely cut, petrol in Crete, where I live is now at 1.70 euro/l, vat has increased, as has national insurance. I have a part-time contract at the University and I pay roughly 25% national insurance on a meagre pay packet.
Furthermore, at the heart of Greece's problems, I believe, is a huge aging population who were (on average) very poor and hence have over their lifetimes contributed very small amounts to the state. Their pensions and health care are now weighing us down. Greece has the lowest reproduction rate in Europe (my husband's parents belonged to families of 8 and 9 children respectively, my husband was 1 of 4 children, yet today Greeks often have just 1 child) and our population shrinkage is therefore a huge problem.
I have come to admire Greeks, who furiously dedicate themselves to educating their children (my two nieces aged 9 and 16, from a working class family, are both in summer schools for extra education this year - this is quite normal) and who are dynamic and entrepreneurial. Yes, we have a huge clumsy prehistoric state which needs drastic modernisation but don't be surprised if Greeks rise up from the flames - they are hard workers who will invest in the future.
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Menedemus wrote:
"There is no Euro crisis ... you, Stephanie and Robert are being far too pessimistic and sowing the seeds of despondency that might produce a Eurozone-wide Depression."
I read comments like this and I wonder what the author really believes about how the world works.
If taken seriously, the author of such comments actually believes that the economic prosperity of the world hinges on the sentiment of journalists, because market behaviour is utterly dependent on human sentiment.
And yet, if the world was such a simple and psychologically driven place, how do steam engines and fighter jets fit into the equation? Are they mere fancies, toys of no consequence which somehow occurred in spite of human sentiments?
And if the market is a thing of pure sentiment, does it not follow that the way to eternal prosperity and utopia for all lies not in material sciences or law, but rather in carefully scripted and delivered propaganda, presumably orchestrated by the ever loving state?
I think that once again on this blog we have encountered a stark demarcation of ideology about how the world works, and particularly about how markets work.
It seems humans are destined to believe one of two things about political culture. In the first case, politicians are the saviours of humankind, and if the evil rich and the evil foreigners could just keep quite and stop making problems, the party will shortly deliver salvation due to the wisdom of the wise folks who inherited titles made by god.
The second view is that politicians are the waste product of an industrialized society generating sufficient wealth to allow certain folks to steal for a living rather than work. Under this world view, ordinary humans operate in the market, governed by supply and demand, and the political class then try their best to pervert the rules of supply and demand in order to steal the proceeds of everyone's work for themselves. And they justify this legislative theft by proclaiming themselves to be the saviors of all.
This issue is basically an issue of trust and faith, and so also an issue of fear.
If you are a fearful soul, there is a huge attraction in the former world view. It is just so wonderful to believe that your frightened soul is to be saved by someone stronger than yourself. A priest, a communist party commissar, the EU commission: all are great because all will save you from EVIL, and also from yourself. All you have to do is put the money in the plate when it is passed your way, and everlasting salvation is yours.
Not a bad deal, I admit.
But if you are less timid, and perhaps a bit skeptical, or if you have the misfortune to work closely with the political class as a young lawyer, then the idea of politicians offering salvation becomes a hideous joke.
But underlining the dichotomy between those who believe in salvation from above or liberty from below is a profound lack of reason. One half of this dichotomy is bound up with articles and rituals of pure faith, and it is precisely the emotional basis of those who crave salvation (their enduring fear) which defeats any attempt to reason towards a more sane outcome.
It is very much like the debate between myself and CBW. I try to reason, and he ends up squealing about his fear of terrorism and his love of the flag, and shouting me down.
What I find most impossible to reconcile at the present time in Europe is the bald fact that the EU has been the architect and overseer of the current financial catastrophe. And yet, the priests of the EU are exactly the people who are out and about, preaching to the fearful and the faithful that it is they, the sacred few, who have the answers and the solutions to these mysterious problems which sprang from nowhere.
Stuart Mill had it half right. Those who out out the eyes of the people do reproach them for their blindness, but they also sell them spectacles.
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I am not an economist either but some of the pessimism that I see about the Greek situation is slightly bewildering. The EU/IMF offer was not the only game in town. Both Russia and China indicated a willingness to step in at rates which I believe were preferential - something around 3% as I recall. These people are hard nosed business people and they would not have put offers of this kind on the line without good cause. Even while anticipating the criticism I might receive for failing to grasp why Russia might have political motives for reasserting themselves in the Balkans, it really does not stand up to scrutiny. And why the Chinese?
Greece has certainly had to make harsh choices and the reaction of those who have been hardest hit while unproductive is understandable. If the crunch does actually come, restructuring will be the preferred option of the lenders too because issues surrounding the value and stability of the Euro will not go away. My feeling is that default can and will be avoided because the political consequences are too severe to contemplate.
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Greece is just the first. Everyone else is delaying what they say they need to do. The bankers have walked away from the crisis they caused unpunished and flush with cash. The idea that interest is paid on loans from banks to deal with national debt is one of the more unacceptable parts of the entire bailout process. Why is it that everyone should suffer but the banks? None of the governments have a plan as the plan they adopted, bailing out the banks, was a wothless effort that only made sure the stock holders of these institutions did not lose money after allowing their CEO and Boards of Directors to gamble everyones money away. None of this can end well and social instability is on every horizon. Cutting services, higher taxes and all to support the banks is not going to sit well with most populations. Things will certainly get worse before they get better. Short term political interests in a time of crisis is the formula for diaster. Everyone wants to blame the people for asking for a good wage and retirement. Big business and banking now want cheap labor to compete with the jobs they have shipped to Asia and a reduction in benefits. The idea of the working person actually receiving some rewards for years of labor is counter to those who only wish to accumulate as much wealth as possible. They will bleed the public until there is a collapse as greed never has enough. Another year or so and these same situations will be in many places and the governments and their unwillingness to regulate and control banks will be the blame. The reactionaries always blame the radicals for their excesses.
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Should Greece threaten default, the European (i.e German, Dutch, etc.) taxpayer will cough up once again.
After all, the Euro - a political construct - cannot be allowed to fail. (Which is why all the high falutin' EU rules and regulations prohibiting a bailout have been trashed).
So the printing presses will churn out some more paper currency that will continue to depreciate.
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These past few weeks the troubles in the Greek economy have been a godsend to people to rant on about economics as if tnhbey actually new what they were talking about when everyone knows that many of them use it ass a mask for their racism.
Its been one long list of stereotyping crap about hard working Northern europeans and siesta prone southern europeans.
The fact that they work some of the longest hours in the EU seems to be ignored.
They also do not have iron ore, oil and coal in vast amounts that helped some of these other economies prosper.
There are a lot of inherent problems within the Greek economy that need to be addressed and will be.
Of course they will not default even if they have to do it paying the germans 5% interest.
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Greece should attract technology manufacturers to build new plants. Corporations want low interest short-term loans and moderate business taxes. The factory positions provide good wages, pensions, and benefits. International revenue will boost the value of shares and bonds of Greek companies who profit during the economic prosperity.
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#8 - ghostofsichuan
While I empathise with the view that some of the greedier elements in the financial sector - it wasn't just the banks - walked away scot free, it is I think a serious mistake to assume that the institutions they left behind are 'flush with cash'. Indeed, as Peston is pointing out on his blog, their continues to be a dearth of credit, partly because in the aftermath of the last crisis, regulators are demanding that banks are more liquid which means they have to hold onto more assets but also those that had to be bailed out are expected to buy their way back into the private sector in fairly short order. There is actually a risk of a further credit crunch unless some money is freed up somewhere.
So yes, if individual bankers are shown to have abused their positions to enrich themselves at the expense of the rest of us, they should be held liable. That is a whole different matter from holding banks as institutions to account. After all, if they were considered too important and, in some cases, simply too big to fail, what is the point of bleeding them dry now? We need them to conduct business in a more responsible way in the light of recent experience but remember that the orgy of irresponsible borrowing was only made possible from the huge profits accrued from even more irresponsible investment. We still need banks but banks which understand their responsibilities and take them seriously.
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*9 MaxSceptic wrote:
"Should Greece threaten default, the European (i.e German, Dutch, etc.) taxpayer will cough up once again.
After all, the Euro - a political construct - cannot be allowed to fail. (Which is why all the high falutin' EU rules and regulations prohibiting a bailout have been trashed).
So the printing presses will churn out some more paper currency that will continue to depreciate."
Am I right in thinking that the only countries so far who have started printing money to get themselves out of this mess are Britain and America, both outside the Euro zone? If so how can he justify his remarks?
Quite frankly I take more comfort from Tamsyn at *5 who lives in Greece and thinks with a lot of sacrifice they will pull through. After all the Greeks like all of Europe have lived through worse times and come through for a few thousand years so far.
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@7 Threnodio_II
I must agree with your argument that “… default can and will be avoided because the political consequences are too severe to contemplate”, no matter the price, no matter the big noise that would inevitably surround the next restructuring of the Greek dept (as I allowed myself to suggest, …up to the final judgement)…
However, I do not see anything ominous in the Russian well intended intervention in the Greek affairs. Russia considers, with good reasons, countries like Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, Cyprus and Bulgaria as being within the scope of its historic interests. All of them owe their independence more or less to the Russian successful wars against the Ottoman Empire. Besides, the people of the said countries are orthodox, like the Russians. They share similar cultures and traditions. I would allow myself to make some parallel with the English speaking world, where, thanks to other historic reasons, the Brits still consider the Canadians, the Australians, the Americans, etc. as relatives and close partners… We must agree that the same logic still works here, on the Balkans, in favour of all those who deem it useful and necessary to cooperate with Russia…
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democracythreat @#6
I suspect you know full well that I was writing tongue-in-cheek.
However, despite your promoting the idea that sentiment is not at the heart of market behaviour and challenging my tongue-in-cheek assertion that Gavin Hewitt, Robert Preston and Stephanie Flanders might influence people into feeling depressed about the state of the Euro, I would say that investors, although typically devoid of sentiment, are emotionally affected by market behaviour when it comes to the failing Eurozone.
Eurozone and EU Politicians clearly feel that the Euro is a currency worth saving at whatever cost and opted to bailout Greece through inviting their national banks to lend to the Euro Bailout Fund at preferential rates guaranteed by their national governments. The banks did so - seemingly smoothly and without dissent.
That activity was quite irrational given the parlous state of the Greek economy and marks a connect between the lenders and the borrowing nations that defies the view that the international financial market will never behave without sentiment as clearly political expediency is an emotive matter and the banks reacted to the sentimental attachment of the Eurozone and EU politicians to the Euro and the EU Project by lending more money to Greece despite Greece being a basket-case economy and achieving an internation credit agencies rating worse than that of Argentina who did default when the Argentine sovereign debt was greater than Argentina could afford to repay.
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The answer to question the question is Greece going to default or not is largely irrelevant...
It is irrelevant because..
..The Greek government still has to perform current and future austerity measures in-order to make Greek state finances balance out and make the whole economy more efficient and competitive in the long run.
..European banks have offloaded at least some if not quite much of their Greek bonds to the ECB, thus Greece defaulting doesn't have any major impact to the European banking and financial sector.
What is more relevant is does the Eurozone and the EU at whole return to normal growth in the time frame of new few years or are we going to have slow sluggish growth. The only thing that can be said about Greece is that they are on the right track and that is the main thing.
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threnodio II
I understand the local banker is not at fault as the local gas retailer is not responsible for the BP oil spill but that does not excuse those who have betrayed the trust of those who lost retirment accounts, will lose jobs and children will be unable to afford a better education , governmental services will be cut and taxes raised. This is no small issue, it is the largest transfer of wealth upward in the history of the world. The issue is that this was an ethical failing, in banking and in government. The solution proposed is not a solution at all. the banks have money they simply have no takers as the economies have crashed because of the dishonest bubble they created. No one has been held responsible. The bankers continue to lobby against every regulation that would prevent what has happened. The political handmaidens that represent their interest betray the people at every turn. There is no credit crunch there is an economic stall created by what the banks did and the banks receiving money from the taxpayers want profitable interest on any loans although they pay little or no interest on the money they have been given. This was basically an operation by gangesters. no need to provide a lesson on the role of banks in the economy because part of that role is to protect the depositors. Not one single bank every stood up and said, this is not going to work. they all joined the party, walked away with riches and the governments decided to make their investors whole. We will do better next time is not good enough. This story has not ended and I am not optomistic that some countries will expereince great hardships and things will turn ugly. Those who simply address this as a budgetary matter miss the point. It is what happens when the business of government is business and the interests of people are betrayed.
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`Will Greece - against all the odds - somehow manage its debts three years down the road...'
If anyone can it will be the Greeks and they have my best wishes.
As others have said here this cannot be allowed to continue. It seems there is a new game in town in which entire countries are being picked off one by one and the bewildered population fed through a mangle until all their wealth has been squeezed out.
Now I know we got here through stupidity and greed but when is anyone going to be called to account? So far the only people who have suffered are either innocent bystanders or the riot police. And the latter are well able to look after themselves.
There is a need for those who have been dishonest either as politicians or financiers to be called to account in public before their peers. This is the only way a new more moral political and fiscal environment can develop. Once we have honest and respectable government then we will be able to move on and successfully manage the crisis in an intelligent and constructive manner. Nothing need be forever.
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#14 - generalissimo_franco
You know my way of thinking well enough by now to realise that I empathise quite strongly with Russia. I cannot think that they had any choice but to 'let go of the apron strings' as regards central and north central Europe. There was very little love lost between the Hungarians, Czechs and Poles following the repression and the occupation of the Baltic States was never lawful. That having been said, I think they are entitled to feel disappointed to have been so robustly excluded from the Balkans. When they were supportive of Serbia over Kosovo, I cannot think they expected a new government in Belgrade to rush headlong into the arms of the EU. You are right both about Russia's historic role in liberating the region from the Ottoman Empire and about the commonality arising from Orthodoxy.
I have posted before that I believe the modern Russia is a totally different animal than the old USSR and that we have nothing to fear from them. But neither should we kid ourselves that Russia's historic ambitions in the region were motivated by pure altruism. The good news is that they show no intention of pursuing any residual ambitions they may have by any means other than diplomatic and commercial. That they have legitimate interests in the region is not something that should concern us when there others with far more sinister motives.
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Can Greeks escape defaulting?
Sure they can!
Yes people are going to be angry and feel scapegoated.
Yes the situation is unfair.
But Greece is on track. Growth will eventually return and Greece will manage its debts. It will not default.
I’m rather proud to be one of so few to actually believe this. I hope you'll remember me when I'm proven right.
Now, why don’t you ask me about the Americans financial position – say a year from now?
Nouriel Roubini is wrong. I am right.
Mark my words. Greeks & Europe will triumph.
Yes they can! Yes they will!!
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#18 - stanilic
"There is a need for those who have been dishonest either as politicians or financiers to be called to account in public before their peers."
I admire you idealism but there is a problem. Unless people have actually broken the law, how do you call them to account. You cannot legitimately make retroactive law. I suppose you could tax it out of them if you can find the money but that is long gone to numbered accounts in tax havens. The least our leaders can do and the best we can expect is that they now move to build a framework of law and regulation which offers a degree of confidence that it cannot happen again. I know that sounds like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted but there is still some valuable bloodstock inside and it needs to be tamed and trained, not beaten into submission.
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The German government threw good money after bad. The German people had nothing to say about it. They were simply told it would happen and it was their money. Small wonder they are so angry at their government. I don't think they're about to forget it come election day either. Angela Merckel got her first message of their displeasure from them just recently. It surely won't be the last.
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I agree Gavin that this will be a long and difficult road for Greece as she struggles to implement her austerity programme. I see that you accept the deficit figures she has provided,however I notice that the notayesmanseconomics web blog has challenged both the expenditure and revenue figures for 2010 so far. If we look at expenditure.
"According to this the Greek state has unpaid bills of 10 billion Euros in 2010 which can be broken down into 6 billion to hospital suppliers, 1.6 billion to construction companies, 1 billion in unpaid VAT refunds, and rather curiously 0.1 billion to Media all around the world whatever that is, and the rest for bills such as the financing of investment programmes."
It is easy to cut expenditure when you do not pay your bills.The full article can be found on http://notayesmanseconomics.wordpress.com
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Greece is only the first domino. The rest are lined up right behind it. Spain is the one the experts seem to fear the most, at least so far.
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On Thursday 24 / 06 / 2010 the Guardian published an article with the title:
"Greece puts its islands up for sale to save economy" and change it, after being amended on 25 June 2010, to:
"Greece starts putting island land up for sale to save economy"
On 25 / 06 / 2010 a translated copy of this article spread naively across all European media (Figaro, Bild, Corriere della sera).
The same day...A letter from the government spokesman in Athens contesting this article was published in the major Greek newspaper (to vima) with the title: Greece is not for sale
Disinformation is intentionally false or inaccurate information that is spread deliberately. It is synonymous with the so called Black propaganda. A type of propaganda that is associated with covert psychological operations and relies on the willingness of the receiver to accept the credibility of the source.
Guardian's article was the case that the source was concealed and credited to a false authority by spreading lies, malicious rumors, fabrications, and deceptions. It was a common disinformation tactic by mixing some truth and observation with false conclusions and lies
Misinformation is false or inaccurate information that is spread unintentionally and such process occurred on 25/06/2010 by copy pasting and spreading that inaccurate information, in an amplified way, quite to all European media: Corriere della sera (Italy), Figaro (France), Bild (Germany) etc.
A 1st, 2nd and a 3rd Correction of this article is been made...
It's the story of an "unhealthy baby" (Figaro, Bild, corriere Misinformation articles) of a "pregnant mammy" (The Guardian article) who used to "smoke" (Disinformation).
Such a mammy can even stop smoking and heal her self so that the next pregnancy can occur without problems for the baby. The first one instead will always remain a sad truth.
Whoever gave the individual who writes and publishes an article the right to believe that he or she is "authorised" by public opinion to "enlighten" it, and even to "express" it and "represent" it? In spite of this, it is usually the case that editorials, whether the writer is known or not, always dare to claim that they express public opinion or at least their readers' opinion. This of course is not the case, no matter what the number of readers or listeners may be. For it is clear that reading something does not mean that one approves of it and as you will see by this articles i'm one of them.
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Re: EUprisoner209456731
The number is not my Passport No. as has been suggested.
I chose that number because there are about 500 million "citizens" (prisoners!) of the "EU" so I chose a number with the same number of digits as 500,000,000 but lower than 500,000,000.
Love Europe. Hate the "EU".
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To Nik!
Do they have sun-powered desalination plants in Greece? If not, why not?
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I am concerned about the Greeks. I am concerned because they are my fellow human beings. Hardly any of my concern has to do with the fact that they are Europeans.
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Property taxes! You can't hide property like you can hide used notes and gold.
Road pricing and congestion charging.
Higher alcohol taxes especially in the summer to stop those stupid British kids from drinking themselves into a coma.
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Yet again somebody who has committed a violent crime around here has gone on holiday in Spain.
I don't agree with the Spanish attitude to Gibraltar but I do not wish the Spanish any harm.
It seems to be that criminals should not be allowed to leave the country and should have their passports taken away.
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@16 Jukka Rohila
“…What is more relevant is does the Eurozone and the EU at whole return to normal growth in the time frame of new few years or are we going to have slow sluggish growth. The only thing that can be said about Greece is that they are on the right track and that is the main thing…”
The sluggish growth of the Euro zone economies (which is quite plausible) will result in restructuring the dept of other countries of the PIIGS’ team. Besides, some of the newly invited member states (like Bulgaria) will postpone their eventual entering in the euro zone as long as they could. They fear to join it now ‘cause the single currency has not been stabilized enough against the US dollar. However, I am inclined to share you optimism Jukka. The Greeks are here everyday shopping and filling their cars’ tanks. The austerity plan of Papandreou seems to work (the prices in Bulgaria are two times lower than in neighbour Greece).
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@19 Threnodio_II
“I have posted before that I believe the modern Russia is a totally different animal than the old USSR and that we have nothing to fear from them. But neither should we kid ourselves that Russia's historic ambitions in the region were motivated by pure altruism. The good news is that they show no intention of pursuing any residual ambitions they may have by any means other than diplomatic and commercial.”
I agree. However, I must complete my argument that the Russian successful cooperation with the Balkan orthodox countries is based on historic/cultural ground by another argument: we still fear Turkey. That huge Muslim country which still pretends to share the secular values may turn out to become very soon the leader of all regressive and dangerous pro-islamic countries (like Iran/Pakistan) and extremist movements (like Hamas). We shall wait and see. You may correct me if you think that my presumption is too unrealistic. In the mean time, I guess the Greek, the Bulgarian and the Cypriote authorities will deem it useful to establish even closer ties with Russia…
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GAvin wrote: But its economy is shrinking, so how will Greece be able to pay off its debts once the bail-out period is over?
Paralyzing with strikes its tourist industry which contributes full 20% to Greece's GDI - is probably the best road to a default.
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GH: " Public sector pay is frozen until 2014. Pensions have been frozen for three years. The retirement age has been raised to 65. Public sector allowances have been slashed. Higher paid-civil servants are losing their holiday bonuses. VAT is at 23%. Taxes on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol have been hiked by 10%."
Here's hoping the French will follow suit.
[hope springs eternal]
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#32 - generalissimo_franco
Agreed. In fact this relates directly to the previous thread. The French and Germans seem to now believe that involving Turkey in the EU is an open invitation to further promote the advance of Islam into Europe. The British position is that Turkey's status as a secular state with clear ambitions to look westwards rather revert to Islamism represents an opportunity to neutralise a potential risk. It has to be said that, despite the Cyprus debacle, Turkey's membership of NATO has generally been a success. Maybe the Brits are right this time?
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If California can then so can Greece! (Escape defaulting that is!)
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threnodio_II wrote:
"#18 - stanilic
"There is a need for those who have been dishonest either as politicians or financiers to be called to account in public before their peers."
I admire you idealism but there is a problem. Unless people have actually broken the law, how do you call them to account. You cannot legitimately make retroactive law. I suppose you could tax it out of them if you can find the money but that is long gone to numbered accounts in tax havens. "
But they were called to account before their peers. The financiers said they had made billions from their hedge funds, selling mortgage derivatives to greedy middle class fools who believe the market is a pot of easy money, and their peers said "Jolly good show.", because the peers are the owners of the hedge funds doing the business.
The politicians then came in to rescue the bankrupted corporations who represented the middle class fools, to stop a depression. They gave away hundreds of billions of dollars, and set of the sovereign debt crisis. They gave the money away as directed by their peers, and of course their peers got most of it. And their peers said "Jolly good show."
There are two ideas here I find staggeringly absurd. The first is that there was no accounting going on by the peers. Clearly, the peers were keeping accounts. They sold their sham derivatives and they knew exactly how to get the government money as well. There have been bonuses all around for the peers. You don't get that sort of financial performance without good accounting practices.
The second absurd idea is that the peers we are talking about do not operate in public.
The house of lords is reasonably public. So is Wall street. We all know where they are. Tabloid magazines publish stories about who amongst the quality is having an affair with whom. Prince Harry and the older one are always in the news, to the adulation of the masses. Lord Hoo Hah and his buddies rule the courts, the treasury and veto legislation, and the public rejoice.
So the idea that there is a "secret" plan here is just not feasible. When anthropologists look back on the modern time, they will be in no doubt that everything was being done completely above board, and in the open.
The crucial point is that it doesn't matter. Put frankly, what are the people going to do about it? What can they do?
Complain? Forgive my mirth. Complain to whom? The folks who have been making so much money from taxation revenue? Who else are they going to complain to? A party member?????? Great idea! "Hello, I know you get your instructions from the party, and that the party gets it's funding from the financial corporations, and that without that you would not be in the political business, but even so I just wanted to complain about something."
And what else can people do? Protest? They do that. People have been protesting in huge numbers. And the media duly reports that as an entertainment spectacle. And it is! Why? Because the protesters are unarmed and only out to complain, and the police have tazars and tear gas and riot truncheons and are eager to use them. Therefore the protests are 100% safe, and constitute nothing more than an entertainment spectacle.
So what else can they do? Meet together and discuss armed revolution? Great idea. With all the funding and hysteria behind the CIA and other state thugs, people are being kidnapped and tortured without a second thought by the fourth estate.
There is a basic fact in play in the modern systems of corporate/party controlled representation that people are refusing to accept.
That fact is that the corporations control the taxation revenue of the state because the control all the parties, and furthermore there is absolutely nothing the public can do about it except watch, complain, or wind up tortured and disappeared by the security forces of the free west.
When the germans allowed corporations to have this sort of stranglehold on power, we called it "fascism". When we allow it, it is called "democracy".
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"we still fear Turkey... I guess the Greek, the Bulgarian and the Cypriote authorities will deem it useful to establish even closer ties with Russia…
"
And what the decaying Russia is going to do for ya? Specifically?
["Man cannot live without dreams" - V.I.(decaying) Lenin)]
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threnodio II: Turkey's membership of NATO has generally been a success.
McArthur considered Turks to be some of the best soldiers fighting Communist invasion during the Korean War.
Please, remind me, where were Greeks at the time?
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The good news is that they [Russinas] show no intention of pursuing any residual ambitions they may have by any means other than diplomatic and commercial.”
Tell that to Georgia.
And Azerbaijan Moscow tries to destabilize and take over by hook and by crook.
[not to mention Belarus, Ukraine and Turkmenistan]
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Economics is an art not a science, so using art here chrisArt(a)! I have to say that Greece will not default! I'm basing this bold statement on the fact that Powermeerkat says it will. So, it is safe to expect the opposide to be right! Therefore this question regarding default is solved, thanks to powermeerkat:))
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21 threnodio_II
Once upon a time there were unwritten laws that applied in the world of high finance as the participants in those markets considered themselves gentlemen. A gentleman kept his word not because he was posh, but because if he didn't he would soon find nobody else in his economic, social and political milieu would have anything to do with him. He would be cut, blackballed, excluded, out and thus ruined. No question about it. So we didn't need laws and regulations.
Then in the interests of democracy, progress, deregulation and all those other jolly nice ideological words so beloved of the Blairite and Thatcherite factions the gentlemen were sent packing as they were old fashioned fuddy-duddies, forces of conservatism, lacking in flair and thrust. So their structured universe of checks and balances built up over generations was shattered. As we now know it was replaced with nothing very much.
Since the unwritten laws were so cheerfully discarded we find ourselves in a world where arbitrary power applies which not even governments can withstand. This is a new world and it is not an order: so we must seek to impose order.
The financial institutions have created a structure of power that suits themselves and are clearly not prepared to accept any discipline in their behaviour. Their attitude is that we must bow to them. This is not a situation for the politesse of the law as the very institutions of the law are being deliberately usurped by an arbitrary power. We are being asked to return to the times of Divine Right only it is not monarchs to whom we are expected to make obeisance but financial institutions.
During the wars that took place in this island between 1640 and 1649 the concept of Divine Right was defeated and called to account in Westminster Hall in the person of Charles I on the basis that he had levied war against the people of the land. This was revolutionary justice but to my mind it provides sufficient precedent to counter the modern version of an unjust, intolerable and quite unacceptable state of affairs.
There must be change as the law as it stands is clearly not enough. So we must write new statutes and apply them with the full force of our argument. Perhaps we could do this internationally like we did when we used the Royal Navy to break the Atlantic slave trade. All the precedents are there we just need the courage and the determination to embrace them.
This is not a revolution we want but it seems to be a revolution that we are being forced to have as these people are imposing a regimen of economic violence on the innocent. This is quite intolerable.
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Someone wrote earlier:
"McArthur considered Turks to be some of the best soldiers fighting Communist invasion during the Korean War.
Please, remind me, where were Greeks at the time?"
MacArthur? Isn't he the hero who fled the Philippines and abandoned all his American troops encircled there to be eventually captured, (many) beheaded and to die in captivity? Yes, yes, he sure knew a good soldier when he saw one.
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#41. At 11:01am on 16 Jul 2010, ChrisArta wrote
"Economics is an art not a science."
I realise this statement reflects a kind of helpnessless - when it is not a science it must be an art.
Exactly why the English language has avoided a word creation similar to that of other German languages I don't know, but at least English knows "social sciences". That is where economics belongs.
Scholarly studies - the humanities (which English cannot connect to the word "science") are tied together through language - generally speaking.
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Greek society is based on a criminal code which relies on ordinary citizens turning a blind eye to corruption, non collection of taxes especially on the rich, in return for an expensive social safety net out of proportion to what the government could afford. This includes lots of government jobs that are unproductive even in performing the functions government is normally responsible for. The difference was financed through various schemes involving those outside who thought they were making legitimate investments lending money to Greece. Now with external credit all but impossible to obtain, the scheme and the social contract to create "the European way of life" in Greece has fallen apart. Ordinary Greek citizens will probably no longer accept that "only the little people pay taxes" as Leona Helmsley once famously said before the IRS had her hauled away to prison for tax evasion.
While the details of this kind of arrangement may various from member country to member country, the EU consists of what is in essence mostly an unholy alliance of other similar minded people. There may be the occasional exception but by and large this is the rule. It is not only unsustainable but the financial crisis has accelerated forward the inevitable time when the scheme would collapse, and in fact is is happening almost simultaneously in many of them. This is the beginning of the end for the Euro and the EU. A very different and far poorer Europe will emerge once it has to confront the rest of the world which lives more productively with far less reward for its efforts. Europe's period of privilege is over. Stating the obvious only seems to make Europeans angrier especially when in comes from an outsider in general and an American in particular. Europeans think they have some inherent right to live better than everyone else. There is of course no rational basis for it.
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"I chose that number because there are about 500 million "citizens" (prisoners!) of the "EU" so I chose a number with the same number of digits as 500,000,000 but lower than 500,000,000."
So deep..
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'41. At 11:01am on 16 Jul 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
Economics is an art not a science, so using art here chrisArt(a)! I have to say that Greece will not default! I'm basing this bold statement on the fact that Powermeerkat says it will. So, it is safe to expect the opposide to be right! Therefore this question regarding default is solved, thanks to powermeerkat:))'
On a similar note, perhaps you should ask him how his prediction of 1 Euro = 1 dollar is progressing.
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"I have to say that Greece will not default! I'm basing this bold statement on the fact that Powermeerkat says it will. So, it is safe to expect the opposide to be right! Therefore this question regarding default is solved, thanks to powermeerkat:))"
Thank you from the heart of my bottom.
It's thanks to people like you that I make a lot of money.
[I sell when people like you buy, and vice versa.
No, I don't think I'm going to default any time soon. :)]
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"MacArthur? Isn't he the hero who fled the Philippines and abandoned all his American troops.."
He's the one who accepted Imperial Japan's unconditional capitulation, and became that country first de facto post war ruler.
Giving Japan its democratic and pacifist constitution.
[And I thought that the Chinese would be grateful for that.
If they were real Chinese, that is.]
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Re 47 "On a similar note, perhaps you should ask him [powermeerkat] how his prediction of 1 Euro = 1 dollar is progressing.
Very nicely, thank you.
Although I've stopped buying euro for a while, waiting for even more positive developments in Greece, Spain, Portugal, etc.
And of course, the next federal election in Germany. :-)))))))))))))))))
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"Thank you from the heart of my bottom."
lol
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'perhaps you should ask him [powermeerkat] how his prediction of 1 Euro = 1 dollar is progressing.'
'Very nicely, thank you.'
Well, bearing in mind that 6 weeks ago one Euro was 1.19 dollars and now it has steadily risen to 1.30 dollars , how would you define 'very nastily' ?
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rE #52
Read carefully.
I bought euro whan it was bottoming. Then I started to buy US$ way before it topped.
[No, I don't get my tips from WSJ; not even from Stephanie. :-)))]
P.S. At the rate things are going with Chinese economy pretty soon I may start buying yuans. :)
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45. At 12:00pm on 16 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
We have been discussing this for so long.
“””Greek society is based on a criminal code which relies on ordinary citizens turning a blind eye to corruption, non collection of taxes especially on the rich, in return for an expensive social safety net out of proportion to what the government could afford. This includes lots of government jobs that are unproductive even in performing the functions government is normally responsible for.”””
No. Greek society is based on a criminal code imported by the English protectoratism which managed to burden the Greek state with its first loans of the country even before it was created (how is this possible?) and from there one it went being patronised by the British on every single occasion dragged twice thanks to direct British interventions in the WWII, suffered a genocide because of British actions, and even fighting a civil war created by a British-paid communist party (oh yes, British paid). Most rulers were British-chosen – including the pseudoroyalties (who sometimes played the anti-British on British demand) – and the more correct ones were either displaced violently or even assassinated. It is openly proved that British assassinated president Metaxas in 1940 (and check the events of the time) and in 1944 when they invaded Greece they imposed the Papandreou (married to a British-US foreign woman) and who started the civil war against the British-paid communist party. It is openly proved that British assassinated prime minister Papagos in 1955 (and check the events of the time) and they gave rise to Karamanlis. The Papandreou and Karamanlis families for 3 generations ruled Greece up to today along with other British and in post-WWII times US-supported families like the Rallis or the Mitsotakis.
Ordinary citizens in Greece like in the vast majority of the countries of the world have simply no saying, they can do nothing in a country that has been set in such a way to work only via the party-mechanisms set expertly by the aforementioned people who form the ruling elite. People are forced to thrive only via corruption and even people who wish not to be part of it are driven into corruption when the needs arrive – who would let his father die so as to refuse pay the envelope to the doctor? What businessman would destroy his own business and leave unemployed 20 people only to refuse paying the envelope to the tax officer? And in what country or culture the doctor or the tax officer would not ask an envelop when he can do it with absolute impunity? While one can still share blames to the left and to the right (I guess the one who accuses is the sort of the guy whom if he was driving in the dessert and put a red traffic light he could wait there for 10 minutes until it goes green) – but the real problem is the impunity of the doctor or the tax officer. Cos if you sue the tax-officer, nothing will happen to him since the system protects him (at worst he will change office) but the rest of the tax officers will fall on you and your business will close for certain. This is how the British-imposed US-supported protectorates work.
“””A very different and far poorer Europe will emerge once it has to confront the rest of the world which lives more productively with far less reward for its efforts. Europe's period of privilege is over. Stating the obvious only seems to make Europeans angrier especially when in comes from an outsider in general and an American in particular. Europeans think they have some inherent right to live better than everyone else. There is of course no rational basis for it.”””
Absolutely not the case of Greece. Greece was never any rich state and the citizens average earnings never passed the good old Eastern-block like levels. What is rampant in the country is social injustice with the few having a lot and showing it off on top. Greece’s problem is that it is not a sovereign country and as such it cannot exploit neither its position nor its resources. Take your USA and prohibit the use of the 90% of its oil, wipe out its defense industry & sell the nuclear missiles for satellite missions,
Greece is a country under constant geopolitical attack and, yes, under constant military attack. If you do not understand this basic then go read, educate yourself on the basic notions of geopolitics, traderoutes and what is really what you call “soft power” and then come back and we discuss. Despite your blind faith in your country you are intelligent, you can grasp much more than the basics.
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52. At 2:16pm on 16 Jul 2010, Wonthillian wrote:
'perhaps you should ask him [powermeerkat] how his prediction of 1 Euro = 1 dollar is progressing.'
'Very nicely, thank you.'
Well, bearing in mind that 6 weeks ago one Euro was 1.19 dollars and now it has steadily risen to 1.30 dollars , how would you define 'very nastily' ?
++++++++++++++++++++
With advice like that, you won't make much money on the Forex market.
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38. At 10:40am on 16 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"""And what the decaying Russia is going to do for ya? Specifically?"""
You ask the wrong question powermeerkat. What you should aks first is what drives several circles within it (certainly not the current ruling party led by US citizen Jeffrey...) NATO ally to hope Russian intervention and against what. Because you should be very naif to think that it is because of Turkey. Turkey is a NATO ally too.
------------------------
35. At 08:53am on 16 Jul 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
"""The French and Germans seem to now believe that involving Turkey in the EU is an open invitation to further promote the advance of Islam into Europe. The British position is that Turkey's status as a secular state with clear ambitions to look westwards rather revert to Islamism represents an opportunity to neutralise a potential risk. It has to be said that, despite the Cyprus debacle, Turkey's membership of NATO has generally been a success. Maybe the Brits are right this time?"""
You seem to lack knowledge of this issue. Turkey's membership in the NATO is generally a successs for the simple reason that it is the perfect US yes-boy in the region. That does not say much to France or Germany necessarily. The issue of Greece and Turkey is related 100% with Russia. It has been for the last 300 years if you want to know. Now go back to the maps and start measuring why and how and when and what.
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just saw this:
27. At 03:32am on 16 Jul 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:
"""To Nik!
Do they have sun-powered desalination plants in Greece? If not, why not?"""
Do not understand the relation of this question - though as an engineer I am of the greatest supporters of changing our energy production totally, and I would love to see Greece being in the forefront despite its economic problems (in fact it would be a tone-up for the economy).
They have installed in a few small islands which are remote and have scarce water sources, units which operate on a combination of sea-waves & solar power. But of course we talk about small islands with minimal consumption thus these units are actually "pilot programmes".
A pilot programme elsewhere in the world is a test-programme to see if it works and if it works we apply it on a larger schedule.
A pilot programme in Greece is a test-programme to see if it works and either it works or not we won't apply it on a larger schedule since we only did it to give some jobs to our party-supporters as well as to subtract money from the project as "our provisions".
Get it, don't you?
All is not black though. In the recent pas the public electricity company (which is not public of course, so in this decision the price is paid by the state) had a system similar to what is done in other countries for the installion of solar panels and purchase of the electricity and this system actually found a lot of success among Greek farmers many of whom found out that it could be eventually more profitable to dedicate a part of their land to install solar panels than cultivate it. However, only yesterday I heard that amingst other measures the government plans also to stop such measures. The government after fighting the Russian gas might as well attack our solar panels - afterall Jeffrey is confident that the overly expensive Arab oil and liquified gas is what is best for the Greek economy.
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25. At 01:39am on 16 Jul 2010, Ellinas:
Very nice post about disinformation. We have heard a lot of it lately and I have beeb pointing out it a lot the last 4 months.
4. At 6:26pm on 15 Jul 2010, Elias Kostopoulos:
Elia, the next time at least avoid voting for Jefrrey or PASOK please. Put white paper so that you have your consciousness clean.
5. At 6:32pm on 15 Jul 2010, Tamsyn:
You must love your man really a lot to be willing to enter our situation!!! At least Crete is one of the most beautiful places I have ever been and in these terms it is a kind of compensation but you have seen yourself all these 7 years, no matter if you are in paradise, a badly run state can really ruin your life. I wish you the best for your future career and if not at least for your husband - he must work at the university of Crete which is one of the few serious Greek universities where more work is done and less politics for the simple reason that no Greek academic wanted to send his child ther (since an Academic in Greece is at 80% a child of an Academic), thus when this university opened it was a chance for people with real skills and real zeal to work to enter and do good job - and the results came quite early on. Sad to think of the rest eh? Good luck.
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@38 Powermeerkat
"And what the decaying Russia is going to do for ya? Specifically?"
Well, I do hope that I will be able to satisfy your natural curiosity by saying that to-day, the energy ministers of Bulgaria and of the RF will discuss and sign an agreement concerning the supply of natural gas /within the scope of the “South Stream” project/, and besides, they will discuss the inauguration date of a second nuclear plant /the biggest on the Balkans/.
Satisfied? Do you still remember the taste of the “Zubrovka” vodka?
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@39 Powermeerkat
“…considered Turks to be some of the best soldiers fighting Communist invasion during the Korean War.”
I wonder what kind of Turkish soldiers invaded Cyprus in 1974, and what kind of Ottoman soldiers the Poles defeated in 1683 at the outskirts of Vienna?
Do you need some refreshing course in history, or a second /preferably catholic/ baptism in order to better see and appreciate the present situation in the Eastern Mediterranean?
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Now this is the thread I really wanted to end up commenting because here we are starting dealing with the issue (bravo threnodio_II for opening it):
7. At 7:09pm on 15 Jul 2010, threnodio_II wrote:
"""...The EU/IMF offer was not the only game in town. Both Russia and China indicated a willingness to step in at rates which I believe were preferential - something around 3% as I recall."""
Correct threnodio_II.
"""These people are hard nosed business people and they would not have put offers of this kind on the line without good cause."""
Absolutely correct threnodio_II.
"""Even while anticipating the criticism I might receive for failing to grasp why Russia might have political motives for reasserting themselves in the Balkans, it really does not stand up to scrutiny. And why the Chinese?"""
Your question is the heart of the issue and your added personal comment "it really does not stand up to scrutiny" is of course wrong and you know it - you used it rhetorically here I guess. Now speaking of Russians, I think it is not difficult to go back to history and see that this is what they try to do for the last 300 years: get a standard access to the Mediterranean. They still do not have it. Turkey is a wall. If you think that Bosphorus is a free-passage as it is advertised you are mistaken. Nor does it really belong to Turkey - it is a NATO controlled passage. If you read this in disbelief I am not kidding, in US that is how they are painting the world: when Greece had retired from military part of NATO following NATO's treason and attack in Cyprus, then suddently the wave of Turkish air attacks started in the Aegean for the simple reason that Greece out, the Aegean suddenly was... not painted NATO colours and it had to be one way or another NATO colours.
Now if you grasp the above reality - which is not difficult I guess - you have to analyse what is so important about this passage. Look the map. Go have a look at Gibraltar, at Suez, at Panama, at Singapoor and at any other such passage... what is so important about it? Note also who traditionally controlled all these passages (it had been more often than not an Anglosaxon...). Bosphorus is such as passage. BUT there is a complication not existing in any other part of the world: Bosphorus is the entry point to the Black Sea and access for Russia but with Greece being on the Aegean and having all islands (apart two small ones right in the mouth of Dardanelles that British strived to give to Turks to ensure at least the control of the entry to their fellow-Turks) controlling the Bosphorus is not all. One has to control the Aegean too. Hence US (just like Britain in the past) is working in trying to reduce the Greek power in the Aegean and it pushed Turkey to demand more aggressively even whole islands. It goes without saying that Russia is just happy that Greece controls the Aegean since if it can align its traditional ally Bulgaria with Greece in a line it might as well by pass completely the need to pass from Bosphorus (the port of Alexandroupoli and the port of Burgas and a nice railway inbetween is all it needs!!!). There comes the will of Russia to pass its gas pipeline (it is the exact path!). Needless to say that both the gas and the ports will do miracles for Bulgarian and Greek economies as well as for the Russian one that will stop suffocating and take deep breaths of fresh air. Hence Russia is prepared to give really a lot - in the case of loans they offered about 3-3,5% and they said "Greeks can pay in their own convenience" (i.e. if they are late, we can arrange, no problem...).
One might say that "well Russians will exploit Greeks afterall"... but the answer comes hard: "how much more than the Americanobritish?"? The reality is that Russians offer real projects and real solutions while Americans offer absolutely nothing other than burding the country with more financial troubles - let alone the direct geopolitical attack on all fronts.
Now as long as China is concerned, China searches points of commercial entry to other continets. We saw this for example in Africa. In Europe it is more complicated, it cannot enter like that. Hence Greece (Europe's weak links) offers an attractive solution: a maritime commerce-oriented nation surrounded by the sea and with potentially flexible market is much of preference to the Chinese.
Here you must take an intersting note: back in the late 70s and early 80s (when Greece enterred in the EEC), Greece was the primary target for commercial entry in Europe for - guess who? - the Japanese. But back then Jeffrey's father had refused their involvement and even hit hard on the first (and last) Japanese investments in Greece. Today Jeffrey refuses Chinese involvement and their 3% loans. Do you get a pattern?
You must take also another interesting note about Chinese relations to Greece - though I do not know how to treat this one:
After Mao received the historic visit from Nixon starting the re-establishment of formal relations of China with the world, one of the first visits, and if I remember well the first visit of a European country, was that of... Greece (!!!): general Pattakos (of the initially US-supported but then out of US favour dictatorship) visited China in late 1972 or 1973 (if I am not mistaken) followed by an armada of business consultants to discuss on the business opportunities of the two rather unequally sized countries!
Do not really know how ot translate this but if Chinese lose so much time when they were so busy back in 1972-173, and if Japanese did the same (and if it took a US-supported family of the Papandreou to kick them out) then there is must be something in Greece that makes it attractive to China. Have no doubt on it.
"""My feeling is that default can and will be avoided because the political consequences are too severe to contemplate."""
Political? Or military? The consequences are too sever to contemplate since it might possibly mean war with the country being attacked conventionally and asymetrically too.
14. At 8:53pm on 15 Jul 2010, generalissimo_franco wrote:
"""However, I do not see anything ominous in the Russian well intended intervention in the Greek affairs. Russia considers, with good reasons, countries like Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, Cyprus and Bulgaria as being within the scope of its historic interests."""
100% Correct.
"""All of them owe their independence more or less to the Russian successful wars against the Ottoman Empire."""
100% Correct - including Cyprus too. An earlier attempted invasion by Turkey in 1966 had been haulted by a threat of USSR. Next year we had dictatorship in Greece. But US-imposed dictators refused to comply and they were changed via a US-supported leftish revolution in 1973 (some months after the aforementioned visit to China by Pattakos, right hand of dictator Papadopoulos). New US-imposed dictator Ioannidis disarmed Cyprus then sent an old tanks to pretend an as-if "coup d'etat" along with British-agent Samson (EOKAII) so as to give the signal to Turks to invade. USSR had already lost the affair prior to the event and thus Turks enterred a defenseless (politically and militarily) island*.
* Far from enterring a discussion "my guns are bigger than yours", you have to understand that a possible war between Greece and Turkey back in 1974 would mean serious trouble for Turkey: Greece alone would take Konstantinople while Turkey not having any navy and having almost zero airforce they would not be able to do anything in the Aegean (they did not even have pilots and had to borrow US and British ones...). During the invasion US fell on Greek politicians like Karamanlis ready to replace the dictatorship to control things in Greece and push it down to abstain from a war against Turkey (it was a promise they had to give to be able to return and govern the country), while back then Greece had not only the moral right to wage war against Turkey but also the tactical upper hand and a certain victory.
Right after the Cyprus invasion, US made it sure that Turkey got lots of stuff for its navy and airforce : the whole Turkey army is turned into aphibious warfare and (please go to googlemaps...) it pays to see what neighbouring country will be fighting with amphibious warfare.
Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh you know so little... so little...
"""Besides, the people of the said countries are orthodox, like the Russians. They share similar cultures and traditions. I would allow myself to make some parallel with the English speaking world, where, thanks to other historic reasons, the Brits still consider the Canadians, the Australians, the Americans, etc. as relatives and close partners… We must agree that the same logic still works here, on the Balkans, in favour of all those who deem it useful and necessary to cooperate with Russia…"""
Us Greeks are a bit the odd kid out since being the only major non-slavic orthodox nation. Bulgarians and Serbians are both Slavs and orthodox and they can even communicate in language terms and southern variations of Serbian approach Bulagarian while in FYROM - a purely Bulgarian region - the Bulgarian speaking population traditionally spoke with a lot of Serbian input). Us Greeks are always a bit wary of Bulgarians and even Serbians since in the past we fought in Macedonia (in the real not in Skopje - that was a Bulgarian land that Serbians managed to chop off and transfrom later (Tito, the Croatian mad-dictator, into FYROM, the plan to attack Greece. Bulgarians too have their historic reasons not to like Greeks.
However in the late years and as more and more people get more educated and understand that the biggest part of the inbetween wars were not because really Greeks and Bulgarians hated each other but because of the reshuffling of the area between British, French, Germans & Russians as well as the fact that both Greeks and Bulgarians are European EU people that face the same challenges and can work together for them and first of all the fact that these countries are both aggressively attacked by Turkey and face an open danger makes these two ancient nations (Bulgarians either you know it or not, are the first self-conscious modern nation of Europe after the Greeks, with an identifiable consciousness at least since the 7th century A.D.) come more close.
However - note this generalissimo - I have read reports in specialised Greek media that currently there is a "soft power" US offensive according to which there will be efforts to stop this approach by riving the old rivalries. There are several ways to do so:
1) By ephasising and playing up in the Greek media every crime that any Bulgarian citizen does in Greece or in Bulgaria (no matter if the whatever Bulgarian immigrants in Greece have been of the best people to ever enterred Greece, hard workers, quiet & civilised people, exemplary all while the US-imposed Albanians have been highly criminal provoking social chaos - and numbers/analogies are respected).
2) By ephasising and playing up in the Bulgarian media every crime that any Greek citizen commits against Bulgarian citizens in Greece or in Bulgaria
3) By riving Bulgarian relic of past demands over Greek Thrace (Thrace is a region that covers all of Bulgaria, all of European Turkey and a bit of north-eastern Greece) and Macedonia (Macedonia is just a Greek region, the FYROM is Tito-pet!). Greeks will naturally get more wary about Bulgarians and will answer back with the usual insults about 99 blind led by 1 single-eyed (by the way both Basil and Samuel were of Armenian/Amorian ancestries, blinding was the old Roman punishment for rebellion/treason against the state, nothing more than that...).
4) By creating any other type of issue, especially in the by now defunct frontier line...
So Generalissimo, be prepared to such events, especially the "provocacational" events... we have to be vigilant, these are not times to sit in front of the tv and listen pathetically what they will serve us next. We have to talk, analyse and explain such things.
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Nik - I marvel at the depths you can arrive..for better or for worse
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The statement from Chinese premier Wen Jiabao to chancellor Merkel concerning the Euro is no surprise. We have quite a few things on the German consumer market, which has been produced in China (and which the German consumer buys, in case there should be any doubt). It is only to the advantage to China to export to the Euro zone.
Chinese deals worth hundreds of millions of Euros (BBC still counts in dollars) with Greek shipbuilding and construction firms to help Greece overcome its debt crisis is of course helpful for Greece as well as the Euro zone in general, but cannot in itself save Greek economy.
It is not over yet.
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Great post, Nik. It is a very interesting and fresh perspective.
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Nik;
"No. Greek society is based on a criminal code imported by the English protectoratism which managed to burden the Greek state with its first loans of the country even before it was created (how is this possible?)"
Yes how is that possible? While I have no more love for the British than you have, I'm having difficulty reconciling your view of historty with what I was taught and read. Who In Britain predated Sparta and Athens? The Druids? :-)
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39. At 10:44am on 16 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"threnodio II: Turkey's membership of NATO has generally been a success.
McArthur considered Turks to be some of the best soldiers fighting Communist invasion during the Korean War.
Please, remind me, where were Greeks at the time? "
powermeerkat, once again throwing mud on Greece, but now, he didn't even do his research.....
The Greeks were also there! Or doesn't that exactly fit your bigotry? Go to wikipedia (or any other source on the Korean war) and look for the number of soldiers each country provided. Look at the numbers, Greece sent a bigger % of its population (hint: Smaller nation than Turkey) to the Korean War. Everything fine with you now?
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Greek will get better one day as it is part of European union and also hard working people.
They invented many things.
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There are two parties to blame. Your governments and the bankers. Deal with those and there may be movement toward resolution. Keep blaming the people and things will only get worse. The banks and their rating agencies kept assuring the governments that borrowing could be sustained when the banks at the same time were running their housing scam that could only be saved by the taxpayers. the governments were made aware well in advance and did nothing. Now both want everyone else to suffer because of their misdeeds. Things will get worse because the solution of taxing the people and creating more unemployment can only make sense to economist and governments. Things are heading for dramatic changes and only the criminals on Wall street will be safe. Republicans will call out the army to protect them.
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"
68. At 8:27pm on 16 Jul 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:
There are two parties to blame. Your governments and the bankers. Deal with those and there may be movement toward resolution. Keep blaming the people and things will only get worse. The banks and their rating agencies kept assuring the governments that borrowing could be sustained when the banks at the same time were running their housing scam that could only be saved by the taxpayers. the governments were made aware well in advance and did nothing. Now both want everyone else to suffer because of their misdeeds. Things will get worse because the solution of taxing the people and creating more unemployment can only make sense to economist and governments. Things are heading for dramatic changes and only the criminals on Wall street will be safe. Republicans will call out the army to protect them.
"
A professor that I had in the university (not Greek) found it ridiculous that the current system capitalizes gains yet socializes losses. Yep, that is modern capitalism!
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Khalik NewUSA wrote:
"Greek will get better one day as it is part of European union and also hard working people.
They invented many things."
Leaving to one side the astounding claim that being part of the EU is a surefire path to economic success, this comment made me smile because of something a swiss colleague said to me a few days ago.
We were discussing options for a mutual client, in terms of recruiting new workers for the clients business.
Now in Switzerland, wages are very high and the work our client needed done was not exactly high value. So the idea was to find suitable workers for salaries that would be sustainable under the business model.
I had the casual thought that many of the young Yugoslavian immigrants looked robust and capable of strenuous work, and I felt they might not expect the same salaries as native Swiss youths.
My Swiss colleague adjusted his glasses and observed dryly: "Well, you know the Yugoslavs did not invent work."
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ghostofsichuan wrote:
"There are two parties to blame. Your governments and the bankers. Deal with those and there may be movement toward resolution."
Is that all, then?
Seriously though, who do you call in to "deal" with the government and the bankers, even if that dichotomy is a real one?
The commies? The priests? The green party?
I mean, do you advocate a class war against the elite, or are you hinting at a practical form of constitutional reform to break down the power nexus that has so perverted the western model of representation? Or, depending on your world view, which has caused the true nature of the sham western "democracy" to become evident to the vast majority of folks?
I can't hold with class war. Bankers and financial markets are crucial services in any conception of a modern economy. Once you start denigrating financial services as some kind of inherently evil professional vocation, you are right back with the priests of the inquisition, burning folks for the crime of usury. And like them, you'll enjoy the dark ages for your efforts. Alternatively, you may adopt the marxist line that property is theft (the transition from "usury is sin" to "property is theft" is not remarkable, when you consider that Marx's father was a priest). You end up in the same place: a self appointed elite with an absolute monopoly over both finance and social ideology. Communists or priests, take your pick of divinely inspired wise men telling everyone how to live. Either way you are regressing far into the horrible past for an answer to modern problems.
My own view, not surprisingly, is that real democracy is the preferable solution. In a real democracy, bankers can exist happily, as can socialists. And in a real democracy, you avoid the absolute stranglehold on political power we see in the western systems of representation.
Rather than use my beloved Switzerland as the case study, I would point to California as the proof.
California has a real democracy. Like Switzerland, it is also a shining light on the hill, in economic terms.
So what have we seen in California recently? Well, the people voted to limit taxation revenues available to the party members who were funded by corporations.
Then what? Well, the party members kept spending money like crazy, and very soon they ran out. And how they wailed and gnashed their teeth and said the sky would fall in upon everyone's head.
Then what? Well, the party members ran out of money and began CUTTING THEIR SPENDING. All the hordes of government workers who obtained their jobs through the grand schemes of party members starting losing work.
Then what? Well, all those folks had to go look for work in the private sector. Happily for them, free market orientated companies like Apple thrive in California's fantastic economic climate, and there is a very good chance that many of the former government drones will start working in productive roles in the market economy. Instead of turning up to work in a party created job that was designed for the sake of creating votes for the party.
Now if we turn to the EU, we do not see this natural chain of events. Rather than cut spending when told to do so by the populace, the party members of the EU ignored the will of the idiot masses and kept spending and spending money they did not have and could not repay. They raised taxes to the point where a European Steve Jobs may as well shoot himself in the face as try to start a new business. These taxes encouraged everyone with real skills and real innovations to go elsewhere. Not surprisingly, you will find a lot of them in California. Duh!
And now that the debt is so big that not even the crippling taxes can pay for it, FINALLY governments are beginning cut backs on their spending. But not because that is the will of the people, but only because if they do not they face certain oblivion in the markets.
Now my point here is really very simple: What is the solution to Europe's economic problems? Clearly, everybody understands that we MUST STOP PUBLIC SPENDING. Because public spending means public borrowing, which means communist levels of taxation and crippling public debt.
Isn't it funny how all those commoners in California somehow knew that this was the only answer, way before the party members had the opportunity to destroy the Apple's of their region with crippling taxation?
And as Marcus will extrapolate, that is CULTURAL.
Because in America, there is nothing wrong with being a commoner. If you work hard and don't steal what is not yours, you are as good as anybody else, and your voice should be heard in the halls of power.
As opposed to Europe, where being a commoner is something to be ashamed about, and where the greatest thrill is to stand next to the Royal procession, and catch sight of the monarch who reigns over you, and perhaps to then bask in awe at the fine speeches of born lords and socialist party members who were likewise born into the right social class, and thus power.
All europe has to do to become a viable economic power is to rid itself of its fantasies of class superiority and class envy. All it needs to do is somehow come to the understanding that the "beruf" (vocation) of the individual is all that is required to place a person in a state of grace with their own conception of the lord.
In other words, all europe needs to do is undertake the reformation properly, and reject the abominable human farms of the catholic church and the communists.
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"And as Marcus will extrapolate, that is CULTURAL.
Because in America, there is nothing wrong with being a commoner."
We in America are all aware that we are now or more usually are descended from the "wrethed refuse" of other nations. Some of us occasionally need a little reminder of that. Like Martha Stewart did a few years ago when she imagined she was a blue blood Anglo from Connecticut instead of born of a line of Polish immigrants who lived in Nutly New Jersey. In short she thought she was an aristocrat and above the law. She wound up in prison for it as did many other wannabe American aristocrats like Leona Helmsley who famously said "only the little people pay taxes." I wonder what jobs they gave her when she served time in prison for tax evasion.
It was nothing short of stupefying to hear a program about Queen Elizabeth on BBC a few years ago accompanied by musical excerpts from Aaron Copland's composition "Fanfare For the Common Man." The intent of that music was exactly the opposite of what the program was about. (It was equally incredulous to hear BBC broadcast a piece about New York City to strains of Gershwin's "An American in Paris.")
You have to wonder what Britain thinks its special relationship is with the US is. Does it think it is America's equal? Hardly, it considers itself superior. It has a Royal Family, a well bred aristocricy, it considers itself well educated where Americans are seen by Brits as ignorant and stupid. America is the peasant land that just happened to get lucky and strike it rich but Britain still sees itself as a benevolent patronizing nation with regard to America guiding the misguided. And that is what makes in inferior and all of the rest of Europe as well for that matter because it seems to me that's how most Europeans feel about America and about each other. Where Europeans always make their mistake is that they think your worth is based on who you are rather than on what you are. And as we all start out from birth as nothing, what we become has to do with much about ourselves as about the opportunities life provides. Those with ambition who don't find opportunity where they were born look for it elsewhere. So when you come to America as a commoner, you are in a land where we are all commoners and think nothing of it.
Consider the Prince of Wales. He had every opportunity life could afford right from the day he was born. And what exactly did he make of himself, what has he contributed to the world? Why is the world any different or better off for him having passed through it. Clearly it isn't. He painted some mediocre watercolor paintings. He was "an ambassador" but of what? He attended ceremonies that amounted to nothing just as most ceremonies do. He cosumed much but produced little.
Many other places also have a sense of worth based on who you are. Castes in India, sex in many countries, religion, race, all play a role on whether you stand any chance to make a good life for yourself and as a consequence contribute to the society at the same time. How can countries which make those distinctions compete againist a country that is leaving the last vestiges of that mentality behind? They can't. It's among the reasons why China and India will never catch up to America. Europe? What a laugh.
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Oh marcus, how desperately COMMON of you!
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65. At 6:49pm on 16 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"""
Yes how is that possible? While I have no more love for the British than you have, I'm having difficulty reconciling your view of historty with what I was taught and read. Who In Britain predated Sparta and Athens? The Druids? :-)
"""
As I have explained in the past, it is not like not liking the British as British. British are fine. However British apart from being British they were other things too, and among other things, they were the overruling Empire - the other being Russia: the two extremes. The one sea based, the other land based but with some will to expand also in the seas.
Naturally the whole British game for more than the last 200 years has been how to contain Russia and you can put in that picture even... side events such as the French social revolution or the Greek national revolution (the 1760s and the 1820s). Do not get the idea that I am any overemphasising on the importance of Greece, Greece has been just a part of the game and the game was already played all over the globe for a couple of centuries now.
Now going again back to Greece, that was a country to be liberated by the Russians and start life as a Russian protectorate - with no assumptions here for the better or worse of such a case - after the intervention of Britain it started as a British protectorate. Invaded repeatedly by British, involved in war by British, having its more free-minded political leaders like Metaxas or Papagos and replaced them with polical families like the Papandreou, Karamanlis, or Mitsotakis let alone the communist party that was revived with British funds from its ashed during German WWII occupation only to organise the civil war.
Trust me. You can't win a game that has been presold. You are American, you do not play that much European football, you play the American football but I do not know much of its rules so I will give you my example:
Greece is a football team and you are the last citizen in the row, the goalkeeper. But the team's coach has been bribed to make the team fail. He has chosen as the 1st attacker a guy among the worst players he could find all while he has imposed the mid-players to pass to him and not to the 2nd attacker who is really a good scorer. In the meantime the central defense player is working for the one who bribed the coach and is also checking both the team and the coach all while he does everything to confuse the other two defense players who are good and thus disorganise the defense and make sure that you as goalkeeper are not fully covered and will eat as many goals as possible. Neither the 10 players out of the 11 (i.e. apart that bribed defenser) nor your football fans can do anything since the choice of the coach is up to the president of the club. If the president of the club (who owns other 4-5 teams) wants this year that your team does bad (cos maybe he does not want to pay the bonuses he promised you and he wants to restart with a fully new team kicking you all out), then all it takes is to chose the "right" (i.e. the wrong) coach and to maintain an inside observer, a defender, in the team.
Hence, no matter how many spectacular saves you will do, no matter how much the rest of the team will run in the field, you have lost it even before the 1st whistle of the game.
Do not search for it. Game lost. There is nothing you can do, there is nothing I can do. You can still accuse the Greek (or in other cases the equivalent Greek) people for having a responsibility for not reacting to these events and you will be 100% right, don't think that this is shifting responsibilities (cos it is another thing to be exploited and to know about it and another thing to be exploited and congratulating the one who profits at your expense - cos Greeks have fallen to that lowly level).
Nontheless at the end, there is no way out: show to Greeks any other way of reaction and I will show to you a certain way of total destruction. There is no way out. Greeks are trapped and they are in for a lot of trouble in future. Will it be in the next 10 years? Next 20 years? We will see. But even common citizens "see it coming" now. I am not talking about financial problems or unemployment. I am talking about more serious things.
Greece is in geopolitical deficit. This predates its financial deficit which is only one of the side of effects of being in geopolitical deficit.
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#72 MarcusAurellius
When is Robert Burns day ?
Do you wear a kilt ?
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Nik;
"Naturally the whole British game for more than the last 200 years has been how to contain Russia"
I'm so glad you explained that, it cleared up so much confusion. So that is why Britain fought two world wars against Germany, to contain Russia. And that explains why Britain was allied with the USSR in the second World War, to contain Russia. How clever. By befriending Stalin, Churchill had him do his dirty work for him. The USSR contained Russia along with 14 other SSRs. And it worked. For all we know Russia might be a far more technologically advanced and powerful nation today if it hadn't been for the USSR. Thank you Uncle Joe. You certainly saved us a lot of trouble by killing so many of them.
So today is Russia contained or not contained by Britain? Right now I think it's all Britain can do to manage to contain its own national debt. That seems beyond containment at the moment.
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Noisy little acorn;
When is Robert Burns day? Any day I choose to light one up. Rather cheap cigar though, one can do much better for not much more money.
Do I wear a kilt? No, I've never gone to a costume party dressed as a Scottsman. What do they wear under those things anyway? :-)
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#72 MarcusAurellius
Blacks in America have it much better --they can´t loose.
It doesn´t matter who or what they are ?
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#77 MarcusAurellius
HOPE
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#77 MarcusAurellius
You don´t know Burns ?
´a man´s a man for a´that´?
exactly what you preached!
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Has anyone considered that China might be supporting the Euro and the Eurozone for very pragmatic reasons ... they are doing a Germany on Germany and Germany's Eurozone partners.
If China gives the Eurozone lots of funding through loans, the Eurozone will consumes more. China profits from the interest charges and the consumption of Chinese manufactured product and China cannot lose.
Just like Germany did not lose by funding Greece for Greece to import German exports ...
The best choice for the Eurozone is to not take the bait and for Europeans to realise that their way of life - which is so attractive to immigrants from all over the World - is simply smoke and mirrors because the Europeans have a standard of living that is entirely subsidised by debt.
That debt has to be paid and it looks like our children's children may well have to be paying it off after we're all dead and buried ... the sooner Europeans realise the collosal personal and sovereign debt that we have generated in the past 50 years and we all begin to live within our means the better.
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76. At 11:30pm on 16 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Nik;
"Naturally the whole British game for more than the last 200 years has been how to contain Russia"
"""I'm so glad you explained that, it cleared up so much confusion. So that is why Britain fought two world wars against Germany, to contain Russia. And that explains why Britain was allied with the USSR in the second World War, to contain Russia. How clever. By befriending Stalin, Churchill had him do his dirty work for him. The USSR contained Russia along with 14 other SSRs. And it worked. For all we know Russia might be a far more technologically advanced and powerful nation today if it hadn't been for the USSR. Thank you Uncle Joe. You certainly saved us a lot of trouble by killing so many of them."""
You know what? Your quite ironic questioning makes 100% sense. It sounds really illogical what I say. But this is down to the fact that we keep mentioning "Britain", "Russia", "Germany", "USA" and "Greece", "Egypt", "Indonesia" or... "Bhoutan".
Forget about countries for a moment and lets talk about circles of interests. There you are, already with the phrase "circle of interests" it starts again making some sense. When I say British geopolitics I by no means imply that these politics express necessarily the interests of the British people and that they serve Britain as a country and that they were born out of a particular need of the citizens etc. etc. No. Not at all. Similarly for Russia, USA and so on. When I say British geopolitics I do imply a block of interests that are mainly expressed by British geopolitics but also by German ones and by Russian ones. In that sense anyone is an enemy and anyone is a friend. While you found it weird, Britain (sorry, British geopolitics) has a long tradition of attacking countries by allying to them against an enemy who in the end will be somehow in better position that the ally.
"""So today is Russia contained or not contained by Britain? Right now I think it's all Britain can do to manage to contain its own national debt. That seems beyond containment at the moment."""
You really do not like British that much (kind of saying of course...), but you really have a 100% British sense of humour (I love British humour, I think it is the most intelligent humour to have ever been recorded). Containment of Russia is relative. The world's most powerfull (the really most powerful, not the ones they advertise to you) bankers and investors still have US and on the sides Britain (since they derived from there) as their basis but then they play all over at differentiated %. For example take the Rothchilds - one prime example - what are they? US? British? French? Germans?... historically the family some 300 years back had sent members all over Europe. Some say they have to be Jewish. I say not even so, they could not care less about what they are, they are power with P capital and that is what counts for them. When 1 Rothchild was investing (and making money) on Napoleon's army the other was paying the British army. Whoever won, whoever lost they would win anyway. If in casino you bet on all numbers, eh! you will win. But you will win your own money? No. Because they bet with "air-money" and in exchange they gain real value*.
*By the way this sounds like the current sale of the Postal Bank of Greece, the most healthy Greek bank which is suddenly targeted to be bought by the Bank of Pireus a debt-ridden bank whih only very recently borrowed an enormous sum of money from the... Postal Bank of Greece: nice? Jeffrey, my man, he might sell his mother for peanuts by mistake someday...
Well that is how global politics go. Countries have their interests but power circles have their interests too and while the various powercircles have their preferences (one will invest 80% in US and 20% in Europe, the other 80% in Europe and 20% in the US and so on...), at the end their interests do not coincide with the national interests of countries or the social interests. Not always. Sometimes it might be so but most of the times it just seems to be so because it is sold nicely to the people as such.
Think of it again. You might see some sense in what I say.
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#81 Menedemus
Germany is not stupid -it has made clear to all that it will save and has demanded the same for all Euro members.
A low Euro hurts Chinese exports to Europe and a rising Reminbi makes things worse for them if the Euro heads south. China also hates a rocking boat so, I see this as moral support more than anything else.
With the Euro rising to $1.3 both America and China are now wiping sweat from their brows and breathing easier.
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Nik;
"You really do not like British that much (kind of saying of course...)"
It's an inaccurate characterization, I think you are unfairly narrowing my opinion to the British. I've said many times on these threads that I do not make the distinctions between Europeans from different nations or cultures to nearly the same degree Europeans make among themselves and perhaps even most other people do. I see more of a commonality than differences. Those aspects I find most repelling I find common to all of them. Consider that possibly from your perspective, many African native tribes have much in common even though they don't see it that way themselves. It's the same thing.
'... but you really have a 100% British sense of humour (I love British humour,"
OMG I hope not. IMO their sense of humor which is supposed to be dry, at least that's what people say, has shriveled up and turned to dust. I don't find anything funny about them at all.
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Concerning German consumption, which here as been described as “national”: In 2009 Germany import from China reached 55,4 bn. Euros.
Since German export just reached 36,5 bn Euros, Germany has a deficit in this trade relation.
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@61 Nik
“…according to which there will be efforts to stop this approach by riving the old rivalries. There are several ways to do so:…”
Nik, I also apprehend possible scenarios if our politicians are stupid enough to miss the opportunity to play the Russian card. But, if we follow the last events here, I mean the discussions here between the energy ministers of Bulgaria and Russia over the “South Stream” /the gas supply of Europe through Bulgaria/ project and the inauguration of the second nuclear plant /on the “Belene” Island, on the Danube river/, we may look with optimism to the business relations between our two countries. Of course, there is a small portion of the society which fears that the country will depend even more on the Russian energy supply. There are of course people who are stupid enough to follow whatever foreign suggestions, kind of “you Bulgarians, you should end up your everlasting play with Russia”. It does not work, I may assure you Nik. The common sense suggests tat we should well balance the ties with the UE and those with Russia. It’s in the interest of the country.
Of course, for the time being the relations with Greece are excellent. You may see Greeks virtually in any big town here (shopping, visiting dentist clinics, etc.). The Bulgarians are omnipresent in Northern Greece (shopping, working, passing their summer vacations, passing the week end in Khalkidhiki peninsular, in Thessaloniki /like me and my wife Praskovia/, etc., etc.). We try to maintain good business relations with Turkey also, and I must avow that, for the time being, the Turks are trying their best to make us believe that they are good intended, that they are our reliable allies and business partners, etc., etc. We play the play, and we try to extract the maximum benefit of that cooperation. But can we trust them? Can we believe that that huge Muslim country is definitely going to embrace the secular values of civilised Europe? This is the main question for many people here.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
MAscaridII
Re #72
I recently watched a television programme featuring as background music Dvorak's 'New World Symphony'.
The programme was all about Polynesians possibly voyaging to South America.
Based on hearing that music and seeing their ancient artefacts and I now know what the people of Hawaii think about the Czechs & Europeans, as You apparently do about Britons' thoughts on the USA from hearing a couple of other tunes & seeing some films!
It's great to be one of the informed, isn't it!?
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Greeks are competent and tenacious people that will do whatever necessary to go on. Also the powerful international Greek lobby will never allow its motherland default.
It is urgent though Greeks renew in depth their Administration, starting with a serious fiscal policy. Black economy must be tackled, no more excuses.
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cool_brush_work wrote:
"MAscaridII
Re #72
I recently watched a television programme featuring as background music Dvorak's 'New World Symphony'.
The programme was all about Polynesians possibly voyaging to South America.
Based on hearing that music and seeing their ancient artefacts and I now know what the people of Hawaii think about the Czechs & Europeans, as You apparently do about Britons' thoughts on the USA from hearing a couple of other tunes & seeing some films!
It's great to be one of the informed, isn't it!?"
cbw, are you entirely dim? seriously, did you really not understand the point marcus was making?
I don't understand your snide comments here. Either you couldn't understand what was being written, or rather your reflex action was to write something sneering and arrogant.
I wish you would stop with the reflex sneering and arrogance, cbw. It does not suit your level of intellectual discourse. You don't come across as clever, but merely as a bully.
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Re #90
"...entirely dim..": DemocThreat, I leave that for 'we' to decide - - afterall, what is a mere, toiling mortal beside Your illuminance!?
As a comic of genuine inventive talent and not Your considerable misplaced & vain comedic tendencies has been known to say in recent years:
'Am I bothered?'
#87 will not be read on this blog: Ah, poor me!
DemocThreat, when You do as MAsacaridII suggests and consider 'Prince Charles' do keep in mind You have one advantage over both of them - - You are not only aware, but humbly accept Your greatness though You did not seek it and it was thrust upon You.
The enlightening 'salvation' burden You bear: Ah, poor You!
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Re "I wonder what kind of Turkish soldiers invaded Cyprus in 1974, and what kind of Ottoman soldiers the Poles defeated in 1683 at the outskirts of Vienna?"
They were excellent soldiers then too.
[Those who perpetrated ENOSIS, provking Turkish invasion in 1974 - clearly weren't, as subsequent developments showed]
P.S. I can fully understand that for historical reasons many Greeks and Balkan Slavs still hate Turks (more or less openely).
But how long can you live in the past which is not going to return?
Ottoman Empire you still hate will not be resurrected.
And neither will Russian Empire many of you still love and miss.
Both - gone with the wind. Like many similar empires before them.
Perhaps you should try and live in the present.
Then you might have a future. Good luck!
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Re #66
Italians and Germans have also sent troops. To Afghanistan.
Spaniards sent troops to Iraq and then withdrew them.
Didn't make any difference: before or after.
Presence is one thing - actual combat quite another.
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Re #71 & #6
To be fair to DemocThreat he does not shy away from stating his opinion of all of us on this Blog and of Europeans in general: The drip-feed of contempt and disregard just keeps on coming from the alpine pontificator.
Hence in #71: "..as opposed to Europe where being a commoner is something to be ashamed about, and where the greatest thrill is to stand next to the Royal Procession, and catch sight of the monarch who reigns over you and perhapos then to bask in awe at the fine speeches of born lords and socialist party members who were likewise born into the right social class, and thus power."
Which ties in with his #37, where he snidely remarks, "..Lord Hoo-ha and his buddies rule the courts, the Treasury, and veto legislation, and the public rejoice.."
Which is not a mile away from his #6 where he writes of all us, "..it is just so wonderful to believe your frightened soul is to be saved by someone stronger than yourself... all you have to do is put money in the plate, when it is passed your way, and everlasting salvation is yours.."
For anyone who lost the will to live before they had got so far reading any of the lengthy offerings from the domeciled Swiss sage I can paraphrase DemocThreat's opinion of us all:
We are all dumb. Only DemocThreat sees the light.
He cites as evidence of this that MAII writes in a similar manner about the British & Europeans.
On that basis, I'm sure it is a well-made argument, isn't it!?
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Well, cbw, I was not giving my opinion on "all of you". I was referring to the sycophantic tendencies of the fearful.
I am perfectly well aware that the UK has at least five citizens who are brave and resolute in the face of truth. Possibly more.
But you are not one of them.
And in any case, I don't understand your point about marcus and I concurring on many issues. We can hardly BOTH be wrong, now can we?
What are the odds of that?
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MAII and CBW
Oh dear. We really have hit rock bottom when we are reduced to using music editors' choices of background music for TV programs in order to make political points.
Those of us who are connected with the business all know what music editors do. Working with limited knowledge and even more limited budgets, they are asked with providing background music which they consider fits the bill is out of copyright to avoid paying royalties and, as an added bonus, if they have in-house recordings, they don't have to pay the artists either.
Anyone who kids themselves that some serious thought has gone into the possible philosophical connection between the music and the subject matter of the program is living in cloud cuckoo land.
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"93. At 10:35am on 17 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Re #66
Italians and Germans have also sent troops. To Afghanistan.
Spaniards sent troops to Iraq and then withdrew them.
Didn't make any difference: before or after.
Presence is one thing - actual combat quite another."
Kabul, 16 July (AKI) - Three Italian soldiers were injured Friday during a gunfight with insurgents in western Afghanistan. One of the soldiers is considered to be in serious condition. All three were evacuated by helicopter following the clash that occurred at 11:00 am local time.
The gunfight happened near the town of Bala Murghab in the western Afghan province of Herat, near the site where two Italian soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in May. The Italians were acting as support for Afghan troops.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Insofar as Britain somehow opressing Greece, it seems to me....
"The fault, dear Nik, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are underlings.”
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cbw, the Dvorak Symphony #9 is actually described as "From the New World." (It was once thought to be Symphony #5 until 4 more were discovered posthumously.) It is based on Dvorak's experiences during the period he spent in the United States. The second movement is based on the American Negro Spiritual "Goin' Home." Dvorak not only visited America but contributed much playing a key role in the early history of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, one of the best in the word.
threnodious, a more appropriate piece of music for a story about the Queen of England might have been Elgar's "Pomp and Circumstance" or given the then relatively more recent history of Pirncess Diana "London Bridge is Falling Down."
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ThrenodioII
Re #96
Mea Culpa! (MODs, i.e. 'My fault' - - well let's face they are so sensitive of late they're capable of censoring almost anything)
Only I was generally teasing MAII, no malicious intent; but poor, old, drab Swiss sage got it into his head to pontificate still more, as if anyone cares a sop about any of it!
Personally, I enjoy both Copeland & Dvorak, but neither IMO is a patch on Elgar. Just been listening to his 'Enigma Variations' & before that to 'Crown Imperial' by Walton - - enough to set the blood & pulses racing of any true born Briton - - doubtless enough to send MAII & DemocThreat into more unfounded paroxyisms of contemptuous diatribe!
Myself: I have to laugh - - although perhaps not quite now as 'The Armed Man, A Mass for Peace' has just begun - - I'll just have to await the slow-witted alpine sloper's next missive for a good giggle.
Cheers Thren. on this fantastically plus 30C Finnish Summer day!
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Re CENSORED #98
See! Almost as if the MODs wanted to justify what I wrote in #101.
It was a Comment addressed to DemocThreat in which I pointed to 2 Comments of his, a month apart, and Quoted verbatim key points - - 25 OCT '09 & 25 NOV '09 - - in all fairness DemocThreat You should know I was having yet another go at Your legendary inconsistency & switching of views: In this case the Comments were on the topic of Capital Punishment. 25/10/09 You wrote wholly in support of executing someone You believed to be a mass murderer, and, 25/11/09 You wrote completely condemning the Death Penalty as 'barbaric'.
Now, all that aside, what REALLY DOES CONCERN ME IS THE BBC MODERATION PROCESS - - IT IS GETTING OUT OF HAND - - IT IS BECOMING INSIDIOUSLY DANGEROUS FOR A NATION & MEDIA SERVICE THAT PRIDES ITSELF ON A FORM OF FREE SPEECH.
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CBW, you choose to mock me for my lack of intelligence.
How many folks do you think you are convincing with that line of reasoning?
I mean, I have some pretty glaring faults, not the least of which is inflated pride.
But seriously, how many people do you think share your own opinion of yourself, that you are fit to speak down to my intellectual level?
Do you truly believe that you are significantly more intelligent than I am?
Or is speaking down to people just one of things you have been doing for so long that you cannot stop it, even if you wanted to?
My own view is that you are a typical bully. You shout and rant and rave and insult people until you get your own way. And because you are a british patriot, you believe that you have been born more intelligent than other, lessor peoples.
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Insofar as Britain (or Germany, or the IMF) somehow holding a mortgage on Greece, it seems to me....
"Default, dear Nik, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are reckless spendthrifts.”
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#103 ouch
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DemocThreat! Seriously now!
Re #103
What ARE You on about!?
I would never dream of 'speaking down' to the likes of You: I don't speak down I just tweak the senses & You obligingly fall over Yourself sputtering all manner of deeply philosophical inanities.
'Intelligence'!: If only! Surely goodness & mercy shall follow me all the days of my life!
Re "..shout.." Example please (other than rages at Moderators)?
Re "..rant.." Example please?
Re "..rave.." Example please?
Re "..insult.." EXa.... oh alright, I'll give You that one: Though, in all honesty You are so easy a target it doesn't matter what I write it'll come across as a laugh at Your Eminence's expense.
E.g. "..how many people do you think share your opinion of yourself, that are **fit** to speak down to my **intellectual level**?"
Oh do come on! YOU have to be having a laugh or unbalanced to write anything so ridiculously pompous & imagine I or anyone could take You seriously!
Re "..British patriot.." = "..more intelligent than other, lesser peoples": Are You taking the pee writing that, or, do You genuinely get that uptight without any effort at all because someone who is of 'english-speaking' origin doesn't let You get away with calling an entire peoples 'dregs' & 'degenerates', or because in my case I point out You cannot write 4 consecutive paragraphs without including a contradiction of Your train of thought!?
If You could pause and read the absurdity of Your invective You would realise in an instant I am just writing views that are in opposition to Your's, and whereas I know mine don't mean more than the proverbial breaking of wind in a calendar, You, in Your pomposity think You are making a difference!
Wrote it before a couple of times for Your benefit and do so now strenuously and urgently: GET OVER YOURSELF!
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cbw - you now seem to have the record in referred comments. Perhaps you should create an alter ego and see whether they let ur comments slip.
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Gheryando
Re #107
Thanks, but no thanks.
For light perspective & lighter refreshment: I'm just listening to Monty Python's 'I'm a Lumberjack' song & in all honesty I couldn't give a stuff what the BBC MODS actually think of anything becasue when all is said & done they are as useful as the Canadian lumberjack who puts on womens underwear & wears high heels...
i.e. They don't care anymore than I do!
PS: My lovely wife just brought me an opened can of Lapin Kulta... WHY would I care what the BBC MODS think of anything!
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Re #97
That's exactly what I meant.
One can get injured serving meals in officers' mess in Kabul.
One can get killed by an IED while traveling on a road.
I can get killed at any time by a drunk driver.
Just like the first does not make somebody in uniform a real combatant,
the second does not make me into a brave Formula 1 driver.
As Forrest Gump would have put it: "Sh.t happens!"
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Gheryando, DemocThreat etc.
It is a trifle funny: Apparently the BBC MODS do not mind as one contributor writes of another accusing him of being a "bully", questions his "intellect" and rudely states that he "shouts", "rants", "raves" and "insults", and when I readily comply the MODS chuck it out!
As they say: Go figure!
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MA II wrote: "more appropriate piece of music for a story about the Queen of England might have been Elgar's "Pomp and Circumstance" or given the then relatively more recent history of Pirncess Diana "London Bridge is Falling Down."
Mark I'm really truly afraid to ask what piece of music would you choose to illustrate a story of certain drunk princess trying to peddle an influence for a fist of doll...err..pounds.
"Drei Groschen Oper?"
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" they are as useful as the Canadian lumberjack who puts on womens underwear & wears high heels"
Cool_brush_work
You have forgotten to mention "suspenders and a bras"! :(
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"Default, dear Nik, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are reckless spendthrifts.”
Well, if might be, if your credit worthiness is found to be less than stellar, and you get lower, more down to earth rating, with all its consequences.
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My charming wife having read the set of 4 CENSORED Comments has just suggested I start to tease the BBC MODS and not just the weak-minded man from the half-Canton (although in his case more like a quarter).
She, as DemocThreat will easily confirm, is of an expedentially higher intellect than myself - - retired Prof & Jyvaskyla University lecturer - - and I'm thinking it might be a great wheeze to have her sign-up & start to writing Comments on a level that require several doctorates to be understood. Imagine the annoyance of Mr Hewitt etc. if someone actually started to write from a basis of an intellect that already regards & calls these Blogs, "..bored males' plaything.."!
His Blog would be emptied of contributors by the second week!
Thus she suggests as a starter for Mr Hewitt's Article, 'Can Greeks Escape Defaulting', an analysis of the implication of 'Greeks' being used as a sub-text for 'inferior Balkan racial stereotype' and at once we see Nik becomes front & centre!
Thus she has brought to me and lets me utilise this passage and smiles presuming the BBC MODS will 'know' from whence it came (or maybe..)?
BBC MODS could cover themselves by claiming its 'off-topic' except of course it is not at all: Thus, we need them to read & understand that if they are forever CENSORING that which ordinary folk contribute then all that's left is this sort and only they will have the time & trouble to read it: For surely anyone sensible will go elsewhere for a quicker fix!
LIBERTY: There are liberties and liberties. Yonder torrent, crystal-clear and arrow-swift.
We may choose which liberty we like --- the restraint of the voiceful rock, or the dumb and edgeless shore of darkened sand...
You will send your child, will you, into a room where a table is loaded with sweet wine and fruit --- some poisoned, some not? --- you will say to him/her "Choose freely, my little child! It is so good for you to have freedom of choice; it forms your character --- your individuality... I tell you, lover of liberty, there is no choice offered to you, but it is similarly between life and death. There is no act, nor option of act, possible, but the wrong deed, or option, has poison in it, which will stay in your veins thereafter forever. Never more to all eternity can you be as you might have been, had you not done that --- chosen that.
There BBC MODS, isn't that refreshing!? A real intellect contribution: Why I just bet Mr Hewitt would love that sort of response - - so deep & carrying that high-brow mark of academia!
Yes, I'm sure Mr Hewitt will enjoy reading those sort of responses - - so much better than me & other iritating oiks - - I bet Mr Hewitt will just love the fact no one read his Blog anymore!
Come now, one & all! Author & Date and to You goes the prize - - BBC MODS, surely you will claim it at the very next entrance on this Blog - - if not, why not, because You, BBC MODS, do set Yourself up to be beyond us mere contributors. So, BBC MODS, will you hneed Mr Hewitt to explain this to you: Censorship is only considered if someone is actually bothered to write something!? Or, is that a tad too deep & intellectual for MODS to follow?
Ooooh, I do hope my wife hasn't led me astray after my blameless life!
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"and I'm thinking it might be a great wheeze to have her sign-up & start to writing Comments on a level that require several doctorates to be understood. Imagine"
I'm sure the whole forum is trembling with fear..
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cool_brush_work wrote:
"Gheryando, DemocThreat etc.
It is a trifle funny: Apparently the BBC MODS do not mind as one contributor writes of another accusing him of being a "bully", questions his "intellect" and rudely states that he "shouts", "rants", "raves" and "insults", and when I readily comply the MODS chuck it out!
As they say: Go figure!"
I agree, it seem desperately unfair. Clearly the mods think I am a better sort of person than you, and that is as lamentable as it is ridiculous.
Now your good wife, you claim, has observed that this forum is one for "bored males' plaything".
You know, I think she may be right!
But at the same time as being right, she has shown herself to be free and easy with snide and derogatory sexist remarks, aimed at You, CBW, just as surely as everybody else on this fine blog.
The fog begins to clear for me. I begin to fathom how you came to be the way you are....
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...and perhaps she could also write in Suomi? That would further increase the insurmountable intellectual challenge she will surely pose
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Gheryando
Re #115
No, You miss my point!
Of course it's not about some superior intellect or whatever (blimey, poor girl, she married me!): I'm saying this Blog is aimed at ordinary people and as such the MODERATION should wherever it is possible accept the level/quality at face value and not start to impose qualification for Publication that are NOT present in the House Rules.
It is about the BBC MODS have begun picking off Comments from all & sundry simply without justification.
IMO we all contribute at an ordinary level - - we throw in the odd smart remark - - however, in the main this Blog is written by Mr Hewitt for ordinary people to get involved.
Where is the sense in BBC MODS constantly parading their sensitivities on behalf of god knows what agenda that simply does not add-up or comply with the House Rules as we understand them?
Look, my #87 & #98 referred to DemocThreat's 2 views of Capital Punishment - - the BBC MODS published his initial Comments - - WHAT IS GOING ON WHEN THEY THEN CENSOR 'QUOTES' FROM THOSE PUBLICATIONS!?
And no, they were not off-topic - - I kept it wholly within the guidelines - - the BBC MODS are behaving in a thoroughly arbitrary manner that given the pre-eminent position of the BBC NEWS service IS IMO a serious danger to Freedom of Speech within the UK.
How can it possibly be justified to Publish 2 Comments in full on Capital Punishment & then deny anyone a right to 'quote' from those Comments? Something bad, something rotten is happening and BBC MODS are either being pressured from above or have taken a view of the meaning of Censorship which is entirely at odds with how it has previously been implemented.
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Professors have lawyers too, CBW.
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Gheryando
Re #117
LOL x 10.
Do You still not get the point?
If, You don't, just relax, and let DemocThreat explain it to You!
I'd sooner his meandering contributions are published than get censored, but if You cannot follow that logic I can't add anything - - doubtless, to Your pleasure!
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Re 3116
Agreed on accounts..
Erm, and the point being that that was my point! You, I, Gheryando Threnodio, MAII etc. all get to point the finger at each other...
What's left if a bunch of high-brows take over and start intellectualising!
You'd be lost for starters!
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BBC broadcast the widely reported fact that 4 US Senators have demanded an investigation into the release of the mass murder Megrahi who was convicted of the Pan Am bombing over Lockerbe Scotland and was released on "humanitarian grounds" because British doctors claimed he had no more than three months to live. Nearly a year later he is still very much alive and living with his family in Libya. Foreign Secretary Hague has told Secretary of State Clinton that the release was a mistake. Many British apologists here claim that the British government in London had no control over what happened in Scotland and that the British government under Brown/Blair didn't have the authority to make any commitments that if convicted in Scotland, Megrahi would not be released. BP denies that there were negotiations relating to Libyan oil drilling concessions contingent on Megrahi's release.
So, were the British doctors who gave the three months or less to live diagnosis lying or did they simply fail to take into account that he would not be under their care in the NHS?
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Yet more sensationalist writing which can only hinder the recovery of Greece and other such debt ridden countries.
Tourism accounts for a huge majority of income for Greece but reporting like this only puts off people from traveling here and sharing their Euros. Working in a usually thriving tourist coastal town we are watching as business' struggle and the usual flow of tourists off the ferries and coaches do not arrive. Speaking to the few European tourists who have braved 'the dangers of a country on the brink of civil war' we hear of the incredible propaganda spread about Greece and it's recent struggles. We hear that there is rioting and fighting on the street on a daily basis, we hear that there is no food in the shops, we hear that costs haven risen so much your holiday will be hugely expensive. We have to wonder where this Greece is that they are reporting about. It certainly isn't here!
Maybe if the European press bothered to come over here and see how easy it is to travel around the country, how easy it is to buy food, how cheap the delicious tomatoes, olives and cheese is perhaps then one of our main industries would prosper instead of fail and perhaps this proud country would not default but work hard to pay off the debts its past leaders has created.
How about it Gavin????
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#122 - MarcusAureliusII
"So, were the British doctors who gave the three months or less to live diagnosis lying or did they simply fail to take into account that he would not be under their care in the NHS?"
Remission Marcus. It happens. You are presented with a worse case and best case scenario and you live or die by it. Maybe Megrahi got lucky. You may or may not agree with the decisions of the 'British establishment' but wishing someone dead in order to tie up loose ends is more than nonsense. It is downright crude.
#101 - cool_brush_work
"Personally, I enjoy both Copeland & Dvorak, but neither IMO is a patch on Elgar"
Not sure I can agree with that but Elgar is a great and underrated composer. Just take a tip and go for Boult in the second symphony but Barborolli in the first and you won't go far wrong. It is undeniably the case that Dvorak is a master composer but, if in doubt, check out the 'cello concertos of both. Romantic concerto writing at it's best.
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Re #122
As has been explained to You numerous times already in here MAscaridII it was the Democratically elected Government of Scotland in consultation with the entirely independent Scottish Law Office set-up Megrahi's release.
One would hope among 4 US Senators there was 1 could identify Scotland has its own Parliament, Legal system & is a Nation to the north of England.
Whatever 'commitments' were or were not made they would have had to be Scottish 'commitments' as Megrahi was a suspect, charged & held in Scotland where by due process of Law he was guilty of Terrorist offences and duly sentenced.
I'm quite sure like myself many English, Welsh, Irish & Scottish Citizens are astounded Megrahi was released, but all such issues should be addressed to Edinburgh, Scotland, and not London, England.
If Pres Obama & Secretary Clinton are unaware of the Geo-Political-ography I'm sure someone at Langley or ther Pentagon can drum up a map and assist them.
Incidentally also rumours BP may have somehow been involved in negotiations over the Libyan's release refer to a non-State firm; as it is a Private Company, Obama, the Senators etc. can take it up with the company.
FYI there is a Scottish Blog page & maybe You would do better raising this issue with those more directly concerned.
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#123 - Poseidon57
I would love to agree with you but the bottom line is that Greece is becoming incredibly expensive for visitors. The economic climate and the tourist industry are inseparable.
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#125 - cool_brush_work
#122 - MAII
Scapegoating pure and simple. Come back Macarthy, all is forgiven.
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Re #122
Strange!
MargaretHoward with nothing to say in defence of Scotland on the Megrahi issue!?
Oh wait, she cannot blame England, so its not really in her remit!
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threnodious;
"Remission Marcus. It happens."
Yes, in a surprising number of cases, physical, mental, and even spiritual abberations and ailments cure themselves spontaneously once the sufferer is out of Britain and beyond the range of the NHS and its doctors. However, I think that you being a Brit living in Hungary constitutes living proof that it doesn't happen in every case. There are plenty of exceptions.
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cbw - lol again. I just re-read it and understood. I agree. Mods are bots.
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cbw, I think the special relationship the US has with Britain has manifested itself in the aftermath of Megrahi's release in that we haven't bombed the UK yet, we are still waiting to give it a chance to come up with a plausible explanation that will satisfy the families of the victims and the rest of America. You don't want to know what would have happened had I been Commander-in-Chief. It would not have been pretty.
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German tabloid is reporting that BP struck a deal with Ghaddafi to let the lockerbie bomber go. Isn't that old news?
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Are you kidding me? Getting referred for writing about a German news report implying BP in the lockerbie release?
If at least I was controversial...
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MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"You don't want to know what would have happened had I been Commander-in-Chief. It would not have been pretty."
A question of taste, surely.
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Gheryando
Re #132
As I said in #118, "..It is about the BBC MODS have begun picking off comments from all & sundry simply without justification."
MODS are not assisting, they are taking over the Debate & that's unfair.
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#129. At 6:27pm on 17 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII,
What on earth does it matter if BP tried to win a contract, are you trying to tell us that they were not following the modus operandi of US company's and French company's. Your brain dead senators should be very careful casting stones as the US lives in a glasshouse regarding underhand methods. I look forward to the boards of US company's being called to answer questions about their dubious practices in front of EU National parliaments and the EU itself, now that will be interesting, we can begin with Boeing for a start and forget about the WTO.
As for Scotland, well you're welcome to punish them, why not try rendition and grab Brown and the Scottish justice minister, I'm sure the English will even provide the plane, rofl.
Gheryando, I'm sure there are more than a few of us interested as to what your #132 post contained and where and what was in that German report.
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dt;
I've never recognized the Treaty of Ghent which ended the War of 1812. IMO Britain has violated it many times and so it is no longer valid. I'm not sure exactly when or how but that's my opinion of it. Anyway, America was a very young and relatively weak power at that time and so had no choice except to sign. No American President would dare suggest signing such a treaty today.
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MAscaridII
Re #131
"..You don't want to know... if I had been Commander-in-Chief."
Oh go on!
Big, tough bloke like You: I bet You've got everyone of the Duke's Sands of Iwo Jima dance steps off pat & the UK is at Your mercy!
TeeHeee.
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#137. At 7:33pm on 17 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII,
Firstly you didn't even get the year right, it was 1814.
Secondly, Britain did promise to return black slaves that had been freed, but instead a few years later paid the United States $350,000 for them, I guess they didn't want them to return to slavery in your free liberated US. Furthermore it seems The United States ignored the guarantees it made in article IX regarding American treatment of the Indians, nothing new there I think.
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cool_brush_work
I shall of course not intervene in your discussions, but if you ask me :-) about the most important things from this week, seen from a European view, it is
1) One of Berlusconi's vice ministers has resigned. No need to involve BBC's moderators in this, but you should look for information in other sources for the background. It is quite interesting, but let me just say that Mr. Berlusconi is facing new political problems.
2) I can speak open about this: China has made it clear that it has a strategic interest in the solidity of the Euro. The exchange rate of the currency has raised after this, and as you will know, we have a couple of Americans here that entertain us with rubbish about the currency. I don’t think it is necessary to pay much attention to it.
Should I as an exception in this blog relate it to Greece, China has also ordered ships in Greece, and that stabilises the country as well as the Euro.
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#129 - MarcusAureliusII
Here we go again. A comment from someone who professes not to be anti-British beating up on the health service posted from a country which does not have one. What was that about ' . . mental, and even spiritual abberations'?
#131 - MarcusAureliusII
'I think the special relationship . . . we haven't bombed the UK yet'
For all we know, you did - since the only times you ever seem to hit us is by accident.
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Mathiasen, you should have mentioned today's dollar-euro exchange. The two Americans you refer to have shown consistent interest over the last few weeks: its 1.29/30 at the moment. Hope you bought wisely, powermeerkat, and no doubt Homer put his money where his mouth is.
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#140 - Mathiasen
If Berlusconi has run out of vice ministers, I am sure he can parachute someone in from the corruption ministry.
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142 - margaret howard
" . . . and no doubt Homer put his money where his mouth is".
Not far from his hip pocket then.
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143. At 8:17pm on 17 Jul 2010, threnodio_II
Right, and if not he might appoint one of the young ladies he is often in company with or perhaps a horse.
In any case, the character of Berlusconi's organisation is becoming still more clear.
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cbw, I wasn't thinking about the sands of Iwo Jima. I was much closer to musing over the clouds of Hiroshima. I never believe in half measures or "proportionate responses." I'm not a tit for tat sort of person.
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#137
"I'm not sure exactly when or how but that's my opinion of it"
Yep, thats our Marcus in a nutshell.
As far as bombings are concerned, I think the victims of American "friendly" fire incidents would disagree that the US has yet to start bombing the UK. Perhaps if you could remember that the best equipment is no substitute for the best personnel we'd be all a lot better off.
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Buzzard;
"are you trying to tell us that they were not following the modus operandi of US company's and French company's."
To spell it out for you, I'm saying many Americans including some in government suspect that BP colluded with at least some elements of the British government to release the convicted mass murderer who killed almost 300 American citizens in exchange for rights to drill for oil in Libyan government controlled waters on the theory that there would be no consequences that would damage their relationship with the US despite assurances from Blair's governnment that were Megrahi tried and convicted in a Scottish court he would not ever be released. In other words, however you slice it, the British government lied to the American government and the American people. Given its history, the dodgy dossier being a clear example, lying to Americans is not something new to Britain.
"I look forward to the boards of US company's being called to answer questions about their dubious practices in front of EU National parliaments and the EU itself"
No US company ever caused the worst ecological disaster in European history because its negligence in putting priiority in obtaining the most profits over the loss of lives and property not to mention ruining the livlihoods of tens of millions of people affected an entire continental economy. But that seems to be exactly what BP did to America. I'm waiting for criminal prosecutions to start if the DOJ feels they are warranted based on the evidence. It seems to mount higher by the day.
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nonsense offramp;
""I'm not sure exactly when or how but that's my opinion of it"
Yep, thats our Marcus in a nutshell."
Britain's gone to war on less pretext than that...more than once.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#150
It is quite beyond belief that I have been moderated for #150. Marcus posted in #146 about "I was much closer to musing over the clouds of Hiroshima" and I posted that we all know about his opinions on the appropriate use of nuclear weapons. I was moderated, and not him, which brings me even closer to a position of sympathy with CBW. Moderators, you are a disgrace.
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#148. At 9:06pm on 17 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII,
Oh my we've really upset you, how dare someone other than an American be underhand and lie (supposition only and not proved), only the US is allowed to do that, naughty naughty, you say they should bomb us because the Scots let a bomber who killed 300 Americans go. Knowing the accuracy of your bomb aimers they'll probably hit France, lol.
However, there are many here who not only recall recent friendly fire but also recall the IRA bombing campaigns where US collected funds paid for weapons and explosives to kill and maim people in the UK. You don't need to lecture us MAII when your own USA record is very dirty indeed concerning terrorism.
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#151 - commonsense_expressway
Only Marcus could protest vehemently about 'the worst ecological disaster' in one post while waxing lyrical about the deliberate slaughter of 70,000 civilians in another. Forget moderation. Let the man dig his own philosophical and intellectual grave in broad daylight.
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#148
No US company ever caused the worst ecological disaster in European history because its negligence in putting priiority in obtaining the most profits over the loss of lives and property not to mention ruining the livlihoods of tens of millions of people affected an entire continental economy
Well thats a relief. The US corporate environmental record remains as strong as ever.
http://earthfirst.com/americas-top-10-worst-man-made-environmental-disasters/
http://www.lenntech.com/environmental-disasters.ht
Of the top ten environmental disasters EVER, we have Piper Alpha, Amoco Cadiz,Exxon Valdez,Bhopal,Hooker Chemical/Love Canal,Three Mile Island. In the face of the BP disaster, its good to see the US can look the world in the eye with such a clean conscience. But hey, what the hell, Bhopal was only 20,000 DEAD Indians and upto 100,000 still with chronic illness as a result. Who cares right? What matters is the Louisiana shrimp industry, a place you've never been to, never will, but because they are part of the USA you've suddenly found a new found affiliation with. I bet Louisianans find you, just like all the other east coast pontificators, utterly unwelcome.
BP is guilty as charged. America has been guilty as charged on all aspects of environmental negligence for decades.
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#153
You are, of course, absolutely correct.
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Regarding the mods, perhaps Gavin himself could comment on his next entry. Mark used to answer some queries once in a while.
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#131
I think the special relationship the US has with Britain has manifested itself in the aftermath of Megrahi's release in that we haven't bombed the UK yet
Can you cite any non-thorazine related references that point to the imminent bombing of the UK by the United States? If so, please explain what you will do about HMS Vanguard, Victorious,Vigilent and Vengeance and their 64 Trident nuclear weapons, independently fireable? I think the people of the 64 biggest American cities, from New York to Bakersfield, might be interested in your flagrant warmongering.
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@100 MAII
"CBW, the Dvorak Symphony #9 is actually described as "From the New World." (It was once thought to be Symphony #5 until 4 more were discovered posthumously.) It is based on Dvorak's experiences during the period he spent in the United States. The second movement is based on the American Negro Spiritual "Goin' Home." Dvorak not only visited America but contributed much playing a key role in the early history of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, one of the best in the word."
True. At least, I appreciate your comment that one Slav from Prague, that is to say from your "beloved continent of Europe" could really contribute to the establishment and the successful development of the largest American philharmonic hall...
I can name at least 60 famous classic composers like Anton Dvorak who came from the old continent against (1) newclassic Georges Guershwin (of Russian origin)...
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Buzzard;
"you say they should bomb us because the Scots let a bomber who killed 300 Americans go. Knowing the accuracy of your bomb aimers they'll probably hit France, lol."
Whatever. Close enough.
"However, there are many here who not only recall recent friendly fire but also recall the IRA bombing campaigns where US collected funds paid for weapons and explosives to kill and maim people in the UK."
That was privatized. The US government wasn't involved, at least not that we know of.
"Firstly you didn't even get the year right, it was 1814."
No I got it right, the treaty was signed in 1814 but the war was called The War of 1812, at least that's what we call it here in the US. The Battle of New Orleans was fought 2 weeks after the treaty was signed because news of it hadn't reached the soldiers there yet.
threnodious;
"'I think the special relationship . . . we haven't bombed the UK yet'
For all we know, you did - since the only times you ever seem to hit us is by accident."
Accidents will happen. We call that the fog of war. London is pretty foggy this time of year I hear tell. All the other times of year too :-)
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#148 MarcusAurellius
Up to your old tricks again I see !
The CONTINUING Bhopal catastrophe was Union Carbide-- Remember ?
But of course that was in India so does not count ?
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@powermeerkat
“…They were excellent soldiers then too.”
Thank the Lord and the coalition forces (presided over by the Poles) that defeated them in the 17th century. Otherwise, both of us would have been converted to Islam at the age of 5…
“…and neither will Russian Empire many of you still love and miss…”
One can not love something that does not exist; even he’s too attached to it. At the best, he/she could live in his/her souvenirs… which is not my case.
However, I wonder what would be the fate of your former motherland if the Germans had defeated Russia during WW2…
Regards
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#158 - generalissimo_franco
MAII wrote in an earlier post that "It was once thought to be Symphony #5 until 4 more were discovered posthumously".
Unfortunately, you have agreed with him which is a pity because it is completely untrue. All nine of the Dvorak symphonies were not only known to have existed but had been published and performed during the composer's lifetime. It is not often I fall back on Wikipedia as evidence but, in this case, their entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton%C3%ADn_Dvo%C5%99%C3%A1k#Numbering covers it very well.
Dvorak was director of the National Conservatory of Music in New York City from 1892 to 1895, a position which had nothing whatever to do with the New York Philharmonic.
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#159
"the war was called The War of 1812, at least that's what we call it here in the US"
In the UK and Canada its referred to as the War.... "that the US tried to annex Canada under the pretext of naval impressment, that failed miserably and resulted in the burning down of Washington and the subsequent claim to Canada withdrawn in perpetuity ".....of 1812.
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Moderator ---
You look FANTASTIC again this evening !
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#159
"Accidents will happen. We call that the fog of war"
There aint no fog in Afghanistan baby. Just the incompetence of gung-ho third-rate National guard pilots. Huntin',shootin' and fishin' in the boondocks one minute, war in Afghanistan the next. Matty Hull's unlawful killing is a case in point, with non-existant closed-ranks US "cooperation" with its ally.
..."all the British soldiers and their families joked about "friendly fire". He said: "I got a letter off my dad the day before the attack and it said 'Be careful, come home soon and watch out for those damn Yanks'. "
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With 250,000 bullets used to kill a ´terrorist´, I think you ´Military Historians´ can really be considered as War Mongers.
The´ We can kill better than you´
´No you can´t´
´Oh yes we can ! ´
´No you can´t ´
from beginning to end is SICK.
And you complain about the Mods preventing YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH ????????
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--- And you claim moral superiority over the´ Jihadists´ while waving you national flags against each other ?
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Commonsense_Expressway
No support of my views from you ?
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noisy little acorn;
"--- And you claim moral superiority over the´ Jihadists´ while waving you national flags against each other ?"
Having read many of your postings, I am not in the least surprised that you cannot find a distinction between criminally insane Islamic terrorists and normal people.
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@163 Threnodio
MAII wrote in an earlier post that "It was once thought to be Symphony #5 until 4 more were discovered posthumously".
Unfortunately, you have agreed with him which is a pity because it is completely untrue. All nine of the Dvorak symphonies were not only known to have existed but had been published and performed during the composer's lifetime….
Dvorak was director of the National Conservatory of Music in New York City from 1892 to 1895, a position which had nothing whatever to do with the New York Philharmonic.
I am possibly mistaken over all these details. I love listening Dvorak and I was really surprised that our fellow blogger MAII had referred to his works with high respect. At times, MAII contradicts himself; I mean that when it comes to all of us to discuss some important pure European issue, his stance is more or less full of criticism reaching even an absolute denial of any positive contribution our ancestors eventually had made with respect to arts, science, public life, etc. At the same time his knowledge in politics, East-West relations etc., is nothing else than an American interpretation of what old Europe had already cumulated as historic records of our civilization… A interesting individual indeed…
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@35 Threnodio
“The British position is that Turkey's status as a secular state with clear ambitions to look westwards rather revert to Islamism represents an opportunity to neutralise a potential risk. It has to be said that, despite the Cyprus debacle, Turkey's membership of NATO has generally been a success. Maybe the Brits are right this time?”
With all my respect, I do not share the logic of the eventual Turkey’s adhesion to the EU institutions just for the sake of neutralising a potential risk of proliferation of the Islamism in old Europe. If in the old days Turkey joined NATO, it was because of other, geostrategic goals concerning the ratio of the Armed Forces on the Balkan theatre. Nobody would think at that time to enforce the secular state in Turkey against an eventual “islamisation” of the country.
To-day the situation is much different. There are many proofs that the present Turkish leadership is going to extend even more its hegemony over the Eastern Mediterranean and that at home, it is enclined to reconsider the basic foundations of the secular society there. (To that matter, I shall appreciate to have your comments to my post @231 of the previous trend).
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#71 Democracythreat
You write a long post that expresses muddled and contradictory thinking .
You decry elitism and the roman catholic church , you give a recepy for communism , but decry that too .
You are in favour of a republican Europe , politically left of center or far left , but not communist .
Where do the ills of elitism in Europe lie ; certainly not in Kings , Aristocrats , or those who give allegence to them ?
The Elites in Europe , are big business - lobbyists , banks which enable governments to spend more money than they have , politicians and bureaucrats , socialist former maxists like Barosso .
You may decry elitists , the church and communists , but I read your recepy for the ideal EU as being an EUSSR .
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# 158, 162, 171
Gentlemen,
In the English-speaking world The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians is the standard encyclopaedia. In consistence with other music dictionaries in my bookcase and with the article in Wikipedia, Klaus Döge writes in New Grove about Dvořak’s symphonies:
“The Sixth Symphony, in D (1880), was the first of Dvořák’s symphonies to be published and the first to make him internationally known as a symphonic composer.”
But later Dvořák also published symphony no five (see the publication list in Wikipedia) and in the end he had published five symphonies, while four other remained in his bookcase.
It is a relatively chaotic publication record, and Wikipedia states about Dvořák publication habits: “This led to an unclear situation in which the New World Symphony has alternately been called the 5th, 8th and 9th.”
Contrary to the article in Wikipedia Döge emphasizes in NG that Dvořák in a number of letters and interviews stated that American elements could clearly be heard in his Symphony no.9 in E minor, but the music literature is in disagreement on the evaluation of this and states in some cases that it is just as bohemian as the rest of his music.
In 1991 Döge published in German a book (enlarged 1997) on Dvořák called “Life - Works - Documents”.
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#159. At 10:55pm on 17 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII
"However, there are many here who not only recall recent friendly fire but also recall the IRA bombing campaigns where US collected funds paid for weapons and explosives to kill and maim people in the UK."
That was privatized. The US government wasn't involved, at least not that we know of.
-----------------------
Well, you have confirmed that you didn't read the news if you say your government was not involved, the collections went on and marches in support were organised by mayors and requests to stop the collections from the UK were ignored by your government. The Democrats in particular have a lot to answer for on this. Wikipedia has a entry "The IRA has also received weapons and logistical support from Irish Americans in the United States, especially the NORAID group. Apart from the Libyan aid, this has been the main source of overseas IRA support. American support has been weakened by the War against Terrorism, and the fallout from the events of 11 September 2001.[16][17]. In the United States in November 1982, five men were acquitted of smuggling arms to the IRA after they claimed the Central Intelligence Agency had approved the shipment, although the CIA denied this."
eg. from the Telegraph
New York's heroes join boycott of IRA man
By Toby Harnden in Washington and David Sharrock
Published: 12:01AM GMT 14 Mar 2002
IRISH-AMERICAN firemen and policemen in New York state have refused to march in a St Patrick's Day parade on Sunday because a convicted IRA bomber has been chosen to be grand marshal.
The unprecedented decision is a powerful indication of the strength of feeling against all terrorist groups in post-September 11 America.
Postscript from Buzet23. It took the USA being bombed before it gave a monkeys about the killing and maiming it was funding, so as I said before about your gripe about BP and the actions of the four democrats, this is the pot calling the kettle black. Sort out your mess in Bhopal before you dare start lecturing about BP directors.
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#72 MarcusAuraliusII
Of course it is alright to be a commoner in the United States , where everyone is a commoner . The only elitism is superior education , riches , success in business or politics .
I would hardly consider Martha Stewart as being elite or aristocratic , even if very rich . You surprise me that she lived in Connecticut ; I would have guessed New Jersey .
It is not true that we are All born with nothing . Some of us are born with " A Silver Spoon in our Mouth ".
You ask whether the British see Britain as Equal to the US .
Yes we do ! You are right that Britain and Europe have a higher standard of education than the US . My late inlaws were both Harvard Educated and their friends were mostly Harvard or Yale educated . Mother-in-law's family were original Mayflower settlers , her maiden name the same as the original migrant .
It is true that perhaps as many as 95% of Americans are little educated , even if they have acquired the necessary skills to get on in life . The US benefits from great natural resourses and fresh blood and hardworking people through immigration ; all determined to make a success of their lives .
I agree that choices of music can display ignorance in their inappropriatness . I live in Thailand ; western music is used on television most incorrectly .
The Prince of Wales has had a low key life , but not devoid of any merit ; the " Princes Trust " has been a benefit to many people . Perhaps you should read up on Wikipedia(sp)before you condemn his life as empty and wasted .
You rightly say that Castes in Indian , Religion and Race all play a part in ones's ability to make a success of life ; I'm not sure where Sex comes into it .
Perhaps the United States casting off all those past vestages is its undoing today . The US state of indebtedness , business malpractice and corruption , cannot be the envy of any country . I think it unlikely that China or India would consider catching up the US and putting themseves in the same predicament .
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#78 Quietoaktree
Don't you mean " AfroAmericans "?
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"which managed to burden the Greek state with its first loans of the country even before it was created (how is this possible?) "
I like the way you are having a conversation with yourself, churning out one nonsensical statement after the other and then asking yourself how this is even possible. One thing is true - if it weren't for the British Empire, the "Greek" state, as exists today, would not have come into existence. It would still be part of some Turkish or Ottoman entity. Where it belongs, one might add.
---
"...a much poorer Europe will emerge..."
For at least 30 years, the EU-haters have predicted Europe's imminent disintegration/collapse/impoverishment. For thirty years, Europe's been going from strength to strength. This talk reminds me so much of European anti-Americans who never tire of predicting the imminent collapse of the American "Empire".
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#143 ThrenodioII
One should not believe all one reads in the Press , regarding Berlusconi ; though " No Smoke Without A Fire " is often a guide .
Outside Italy people do not realise that Academic professionals that includes the legal profession are generally socialists . I believe under Roman Law one is guilty until proven innocent , which give the prosecutors scope to charge Berlusconi with corruption , in the hope of bringing down his centre right government . Charging Berlusconi might be just as corrupt , on the part of the prosecutors ; in this case a fearsome woman prosecutor , who has been trying to convict him for years .
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I don't read many , if any , answers as to whether we think Greece is likely to default . Personally I find it difficult to see how she cannot . The EU has a subtantial sum of money , promised or set aside , to bail her out in the next year or so . WE shall see , time will tell .
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#173 - Mathiasen
I think we will have to agree to meet half way. My Grove still languishes gathering dust in England being a bit much to ship across Europe but my trusty Oxford confirms that the first four symphonies were not published in his lifetime. For that I am repentant as I would not argue with an authority such as Grove but I am fairly confident that they had all been performed at some point.
You are right. Authorities disagree and accounts are contradictory but it is clear from correspondence between Dvorak and his publisher, Simrock, regarding the Violin concerto that they were interested in material with significant commercial potential. I would suspect that they would have published the first four symphonies belatedly only if the composer had been willing to do so at his own expense. That would have been high risk given that his income from the 'commercial' scores was lucrative. Maybe that is why they 'remained in the bookshelf'.
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#174 - Buzet23
I vividly remember sitting in a bar in Los Angeles many years ago when the man with the NORAID tin came collecting. My Anglo-American companion had recently had a friend injured in a London attack and I myself had only narrowly been missed by the Birmingham bomb. To her credit, she pointed out the whole bar what the money was actually for and the man left empty handed.
It is a matter of some concern that successive US administrations colluded in a conspiracy of silence regarding the funding of terrorism in those years and ironic that they and the Libyans were the primary source of income. Especially ironic when you consider Lockerbie and Al Magrahi. The Kennedy family had a lot to answer for in this respect - especially the otherwise admirable Edward Kennedy - but credit must be given to the Clinton administration which had to turn the tide of public opinion as they paved the way for their role in the Good Friday process. 9/11 may have been the clincher but the corner had been turned.
It is however a sad fact of life that it took a devastating attack on home territory before large numbers of Americans finally got the point that you cannot be selective about terrorism. Terrorism is undeclared war fought by people who don't have the guts to wear uniform waged against innocent civilians and it is never acceptable however noble or otherwise the cause. 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?' I don't think so. They are just common criminals.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#179. At 09:47am on 18 Jul 2010, Huaimek
There lies the conundrum, in all truth they should default just as many people with a no-win financial problem go bankrupt, but, and here lies the problem, so much importance has been placed in the success of the single currency (Euro) by the political elite that run the EU, that they cannot allow Greece to in effect revalue it's economy as that means leaving the Euro. Once one 'in debt' country leaves the Euro then that means other 'in debt' country's most likely will as well, and that spells the end of the Euro's attempt to expand and become an equal size competitor to the Dollar.
It is the current EU's main failing that it's political masters only have the same one solution to every problem that arises and are blind to all alternative solutions that could make the EU and the Euro a success.
It is a shame for the people of Greece that their country will therefore be held in a financial straight jacket that will prevent them recovering for pure unadulterated political reasons that have no value except to a bunch of undemocratic EU mandarins.
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MAscaridII
Re #131, 146, 149, 159, 169 & nuclear response to freeing Megrahi.
I'm unsure as to why any of the regular contributors on here would be surprised by Your no 'tit-for-tat' military response: Nuclear Weapons in Your 'All-American' mind would seem a 'proportionate response' to a criminal-terrorist act by a Libyan Terrorist perpetrated over the skies of a Scottish village, on a British Airways aircraft packed with passenger-nationalities ranging from American to African to European & Asian who were members of all 4 of the World's major Faiths.
Afterall, Your USA did as You hint it should again, use Nuclear Weapons on Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
In fact that is fairly much how one might expect the US of A to respond because 5 TIMES the number of Lockerbie dead were killed at Hiroshima & 3 TIMES that number at Nagasaki!
Oh, by the way - - those numbers - - they were the USA, UK & COMMONWEALTH POWs in Japan killed in the 2 Nuclear explosions done by the USA.
So, MAscaridII You are certainly the equal of Your fellow great American patriots in Your indifference to life!
Yet again, as with the Health debate where You displayed gross misunderstanding of People & Events in trying to link it to 9/11, so it is with this tragic episode: I'm quite sure were You to confront the families of the slain BA Passengers with Your sickening, unfeeling & wholly unwarranted nastiness You would again risk having emergency treatment for missing teeth at a hospital near You!
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threnodio:
"Terrorism is undeclared war fought by people who don't have the guts to wear uniform waged against innocent civilians and it is never acceptable however noble or otherwise the cause. 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?' I don't think so. They are just common criminals."
The "guts to wear [a] uniform" is a delightful phrase. I am overtaken with a vision of threnodio addressing nelson mandela, and telling him that he is a common criminal because he never had the guts to wear a south african army uniform.
Because, after all, Mandela is a convicted terrorist. All those folks screaming "Free Mandela!" for so long were trying to overturn the judgement against him, handed down after his actions contributed to the deaths of 26 people in a terrorist bombing campaign.
That isn't controversial, he admits it. He isn't sorry.
And didn't the world cheer and wipe the tears from its eyes when dear Nelson made his way onto the world stage at the football last week? It was quite a sight. This man, who never had the guts to wear a uniform, being greeted with rapturous applause.
Now turning to the issue of British Military policy, I am able to confirm that the British military has a policy for what happens if the central command structure goes down, and a foreign army takes control of the british Isles.
Not surprisingly, if you have any idea of military history whatsoever, the army are instructed to divest themselves of uniforms and to retain their weapons, and then to wage a terrorist war (we call it a guerilla war) against the enemy occupiers.
In threnodio's view, the better thing to do is for all the british soldiers, upon hearing that they have lost contact with central command, to lay down their weapons and give the country up entirely to the foreign occupier.
And who knows, he may be right! I don't advocate being a british soldier, or any kind of professional soldier in service to a non democratic system of government, so I don't really have an opinion on the matter.
But it would help his grand moralizing if he could get his facts straight about the British military policy on uniforms, before writing that the most glorious thing a young man can do is throw on the colours and wage war for flag, King and Empire.
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Buzet23
Re #174
Spot on.
MAscaridII is so dumb at times about his own countrymen's activities one would think he has been living in the everglades with crocs for company & mosqitoes providing news!
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# 181
Eh, Gladio still hasn't been properly investigated - some half hearted attempts, that's it - but we know the CIA put money and training in that program, and that resulted in quite some 'terrorism' across Europe. Bologna train station? Julien Lahaut? Tueurs de Brabant? ... I wouldn't be surprised if the death of Aldo Moro wasn't partly Gladio. The Brigatti Rossi were infiltrated to such a degree, it wouldn't surprise me, at all.
I'm, by the way, still waiting for the US government to actually do something about Luis Posada Carriles. It's all good and well, pontificating about protecting terrorists and Lockerby, but the victims from Cubana Flight 455 apparently aren't worth the same amount of outrage.
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#185 - democracythreat
I suppose that someone was bound to raise the question of Nelson Mandela but I am surprised that it is someone as erudite s you. No know perfectly well that that was a trumped up charge, no direct connection was established between Mandela and that incident - at least none that would satisfy an honest court - and that throughout the process both he and Desmond Tutu preached the cause of non-violence. I do not regard him as a terrorist and neither do most good thinking individuals.
As for the rest of you post, their is no contradiction in our positions. Of course that is what a large number of service people would feel the need to do. It is understandable. It makes no difference to that fact that, in doing so, they criminalise themselves and, if caught, they would expect to be taken out and shot just as members of resistance movements throughout Nazi occupied Europe were. These people understood the risks and lived or died with the consequences. We come back to one man's freedom fighter being another man's terrorist. They choose to become criminals, their enemies judge them accordingly and history categorises them according to the worthiness of the cause and generally the final outcome. I recognise the philosophical contradiction here but, as a lawyer, I would have expected you of all people to see that there is no legal distinction.
#184 - cool_brush_work
It was a Pan American flight. It makes little difference to your valid point but I would hate MAII to seize upon it as an excuse to jump down your throat.
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Mathiasen, ThrenodioII, generalissimo-franco, mascaridII etc.
On the relative merits of Elgar & Dvorak plus sundry 'national' musical evolutionary interest:
Elgar 1857-1934; his life covered the period from the zenith of the Great Britain 'Workshop of the World' & 'Imperial' expansion to the imminent decline & fall of both.
As such his Music encompasses that era and is at the forefront of the 'revival' of what was an admittedly poor British 'classical music' output (after Purcell).
From his Oratorio 'Dream of Gerontius' to the Orchestral 'Enigma Variations' he propounded by sound the classic British scenarios. These compositions epitomise Britishness. Though he does not compare with the greatest German & Italian composers still Elgar's musical achievement is the epitome of English adventurism when it was at its height.
He did adventure to Italy and his 'In The South' is a lively compliment to that Nation.
Pres Berlusconi would do well to put the floozies to one side and sit in cool corner sipping tea whilst contemplating his next political moves as 'In The South' takes him away from the corrupt melodies he's found so beguiling in the 'north'!
Now, as for Dvorak (1841-1904), he is surely a very great composer too: That he has on here become associated with the prize clown MAII is not to be held against him (at least not much or for long).
Like his fellow Czech-Slav composer Smetana, he too lived almost entirely under Austrian rule & also struggled somewhat with his own native language (Bohemia).
Dvorak's compositions do coincide with & are symptomatic of the 'national' awakening in much of the Habsburg Empire - - the symphonies & chamber music do have grandeur and evoke sentiment of Popular aspirations/romance just as Elgar does for the British.
It is just a great pity for Dvorak & his 9th that in the US of A all the bright promise, rippling muscular enthusiasm of such a fine composition has found itself withered & reduced into the querulous, ungainly & wholly unattractive MAscaridII version of 'An Americans Gotta Do, What an Americans Gotta Do'! YUK!
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#181. At 10:13am on 18 Jul 2010, threnodio_II,
when a terrorist becomes a freedom fighter is one of those conundrums that is very difficult to answer and whether they use a uniform or not seems not to matter as many of these terrorists seem to have uniforms and claim to be part of some bizarre named army. What sets a terrorist apart to me is when it involves indiscriminate bombing rather than targeted resistance as when a country has been invaded. Placing a bomb in a public area where collateral damage will mean innocent civilians being killed is pure terrorism and it is sickening to see such people now lauded as freedom fighters. We all know the US see collateral damage as acceptable and have funded terrorist activities in many country's for a number of reasons, and when 9/11 happened I must say that amongst great sadness and shock was a thought that now they have experienced the sharp end for once as I too was in London during the IRA bombing campaigns.
#187. At 10:31am on 18 Jul 2010, Leo_Naphta,
I had heard of the talk that the Brussels gendarmerie were involved with the killers of Nivelles as the killings in the Colruyt were still the talk of the people of Nivelles when I was there in 1990, but I had not heard of a Gladio link until you mentioned it. Maybe somewhere in Shape there is an interesting file, who knows, but so far this case is much like the Dutroux case, nobody knows nothing.
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# 190, Buzet23 ...
The Gladio link has been speculated on quite a bit, just as the infiltration of the CCC has been speculated on. There have been some people that have testified on the matter, but it remains to be seen exactly how reliable they are. Fact remains that the modus operandi of the Tueurs de Brabant/Bende van Nijvel resembles other Gladio actions, and fits in with the general strategy that was employed by Gladio as far as we know from what has come out until now. There are some interesting documentaries and books out on the subject, and especially interviews and what has come out under the parliamentary investigations into Gladio & Brabant Killers.
There are definitely some shady things that haven't come out yet. I still find it interesting that so few people seem to know about Gladio. Especially since the existance of it has been admitted publically by various high ranking officials and politicians like Andreotti and Martens.
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#188. At 10:56am on 18 Jul 2010, threnodio_II,
Regarding Nelson Mandela, terrorists and the justice system, here lies the rub, any half decent terrorist leaves little if any trace of their activities as most is performed in a very clandestine manner with secrecy being very important. Therefore in order to satisfy the 'beyond reasonable doubt' nature of an honest criminal trial the terrorist has had to have been pretty stupid and leave hard evidence behind. This is why so many trials in honest justice systems never see the light of day or fail and why we see Sinn Fein politicians like Adams and McGuiness. It is also why in many trials evidence has been beefed up or even fabricated and whether this was the case with Mandela none of us will ever know as for sure he will proclaim innocence, just as the Sinn Fein guys do, but we can never know if they are being truthful.
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ThrenodioII
Re the Swiss sage's pontificating ethical feel for the 'terrorist' & 'uniforms' in #185
Just put it down to more of the same: Utter tosh & gibberish.
I could give You at least 4 quotes from this 'anti-English speaking' teller of twaddle in which he states opposing views on terrorism to those he expresses on this Blog: The man is just a bunch of unwinding, unkempt woolly thoughts & observations.
The reason I don't quote him is it is evident from the last 2 days that the BBC MODS are not prepared to let me continue to expose his lack of cohesive thought process.
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ThrenodioII
Re #188
Of course You are correct: A Pan American flight - - my apologies to all - - that said, as You say it makes not a jot of difference to the 'international' elements of this tragic Locherbie episode.
However, we cannot expect MAII to ever grasp the true international dimensions - - Megrahi's release must be avenged for Amrican's sake - - regardless of any other Nationalities because MAscaridII doesn't see anything in clear, concise, logical order (hence DemocThreat's close affinity to him in so many topics), but only insofar as they affect his image of the Great American Goes Forth!
Pitiful; truly, deeply, madly pitiful.
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#189 - cool_brush_work
We share the enthusiasm for Elgar but it is only fair to point out that you are talking about works composed before the '14-'18 war. He also spent a great deal of time in Germany and Austria in the company of his great friend, Richard Strauss. The war enforced a suspension of this friendship which affected him deeply. He was also profoundly moved and saddened by the catastrophic loss of life and suffering. This along with the death of his beloved Alice gave birth to a number of late works, mainly chamber music but also to glorious 'cello concerto in which we hear an altogether more winsome and thoughtful composer. This, to my mind, is some of his greatest music and very much of the 20th century.
As for Slavic music, yes of course Dvorak and Smetana but spare a thought also for Janacek, a vehement opponent of the Empire and thus a Russophile and Dvorak's son in law, Suk, hugely underrated in the west. When his wife, Dvorak's daughter did tragically young, his symphony in her memory drew its inspiration from 'Asrael', the Islamic angel of death, a fascinating example of cross-cultural inspiration. It is also a deeply moving masterpiece. I commend it to you.
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ThrenII
Just looked up Josef/Joseph SUK on my iTunes, but cannot locate the Symphony You recommend: Do You have a label?
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CBW
My preferred recording (Libor Pecek and the R Liverpool PO) seems to be out of the catalogue. Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Rafael Kubelik is wonderful if a bit dated from a sound point of view. You will have to Google that because I can only find links to illegal downloads and I cannot paste those. That may mean it is not in the catalogue either.
Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, Václav Neumann is an old classic, probably mono but can be bought here - http://www.last.fm/music/Josef+Suk/Asrael+Symphony+%28Czech+Philharmonic+Orchestra,+V%C3%A1clav+Neumann%29
But there seems to be a very recent recording which I have not heard but which the critics love. Askenazy and the Helsinki Philharmonic. That is available at Amazon here - http://www.amazon.com/Suk-Asrael-Symphony-SACD-Josef/dp/B001N26H0G
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CBW
It looks as though the mods might not like my list of links. If is referred, google "Suk+Asrael+Ashkenazy" and "Suk+Asrael+Kubelik"
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threnodio_II wrote:
"#185 - democracythreat
I suppose that someone was bound to raise the question of Nelson Mandela but I am surprised that it is someone as erudite s you. No know perfectly well that that was a trumped up charge, no direct connection was established between Mandela and that incident - at least none that would satisfy an honest court - and that throughout the process both he and Desmond Tutu preached the cause of non-violence. I do not regard him as a terrorist and neither do most good thinking individuals."
With respect, you seem to know almost nothing at all about Nelson Mandela. Furthermore, your comments here would offend the man significantly. Nelson Madenla made the explicit point that the terrorist organization he founded destroyed innocent civilians in front of the "Truth and Reconciliation Committee", and he chastised all ANC members who attempted to gloss over the violent actions of his group.
Nelson Mandela is not afraid of discussing the truth, and you would not impress him with your desire to fabricate history and turn a blind eye to the reality of what was done in the name of "freedom".
Now I say it was "his group", because he was the founder of it. It was called the "Spear of the Nation", or Umkhonto we Sizwe, and its' targets were government offices such as post offices, courts and so on. Civilian casualties were not only the result, they were understood to be inevitable prior to the operations.
While we are on the subject of dear Nelson, it was the CIA who turned him over to the Apartheid regime.
In any case, Nelson Mandela is but one example of a revolutionary whose struggle was deemed to be legitimate by the world. Other examples abound. The founding fathers of the great American nation, for example, were terrorists against their legitimate British overlords.
The failure to comprehend that every freedom fighter is also a terrorist, and visa versa, is a basic failure of intellectual ability. Anyone who cannot understand that basic principle simply does not grasp the elementary concept of blame and righteousness justifying aggression.
And this is why I take issue with the idea that wearing a uniform is somehow a courageous act, or even more incredibly that it somehow conveys legitimacy to the slaughter of civilians. If you believe that, then the SS were jolly good chaps doing soldiers business for the grand old third reich.
In any case, the debate is futile because you, threnodio, have the intellectual ability to reason these things for yourself if you but made the slightest effort to do so. I sense a willful desire for righteousness and a willful blindness here, and it is something I have encountered very often in the past. I know how this movie ends, if you like.
But if we can tear the discussion away from the emotionally charged subject of international homicide in uniform being glorious, there is another aspect to the debate about legitimizing state violence. That is the domestic question: when does the state uniform of the police entitle them to spy upon, torture, kidnap and murder citizens?
I find it extremely curious that most people have an instinctive understanding that wearing a police uniform ought not grant the wearer hero status whensoever that person kills someone under orders. We understand, most of us, that there is something seriously wrong with a society where the raw power of the state and the raw power of uniformed police grants legitimacy to their brutality. We believe that the exercise of deadly force and co-ercion ought to be severely limited by law, and indeed most sane people believe that police ought never simply execute criminals because they feel it is the way to go at the time.
And yet, when you take the man out of the civilian uniform and put him in an army uniform, everything changes. The same people who question the power of the state to murder human beings such as themselves become flag waving war mongers. They not only turn a blind eye to the killing done in these subtly different state uniforms, there actively cheer it onwards, as if nothing could be more glorious than "security" obtained through violence.
Now if you think that is a sensible distinction, consider that whensoever domestic police forces have used deadly force, they inevitably preach exactly the same justification: security through violence.
It is always "security" forces who carry out the most appalling torture and murder, and it is always the uniformed folks who cause the most deaths, both domestically and internationally.
Threnodio, the current climate in the world is turning distinctly hostile and ugly. People are accepting the argument being made everywhere, that we obtain security through violence. In nearly every state, both the military activities and domestic activities of men in uniforms is becoming more violent, and less of a concern to observers.
I think it is worth having a good hard think about that, and if you consider yourself a moral person then it is worth trying to walk a mile in the other persons' shoes.
I brought up the idea of the british army being overrun and forced into a terrorist standpoint because I thought this might make you think about what it must be like to have foreign soldiers policing your family, to have ZERO recourse to the law when foreign soldiers killed your friends and colleagues, and how that might make you feel about those foreigners.
Anybody who thinks that a state uniform makes a man a legitimate killer of others has simply lost the ability to empathize with those born under different circumstances. Such a person has become brutalized, if they were ever a more moral human being.
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threnodio:
"No know perfectly well that that was a trumped up charge, no direct connection was established between Mandela and that incident - at least none that would satisfy an honest court - and that throughout the process both he and Desmond Tutu preached the cause of non-violence. I do not regard him as a terrorist and neither do most good thinking individuals."
In all seriousness, who told you this?
What is your source for these incredible claims?
I ask, because they are 100% at odds with every available source I know of, including Nelson Mandela himself.
Threnodio, you need to provide a source for these claims, or I'm afraid I am going to have to accuse you of the outright and deliberate fabrication of evidence.
For a start, you refer to "that incident". What incident?
Nelson Mandela founded a terrorist organization that carried out not one incident, but a prolonged series of bombings against civilian targets. And he has always admitted that.
I do not know of one single authority which ever claimed that the charges against him were false, or that he was not guilty as charged.
I'm sorry, threnodio, but you have a burden here. Set out your source for your claims, or you have been exposed as someone who simply makes up facts to suit an argument, presumably because you think you are not going to get caught out.
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Caused by #189
The theme cool_brush_work is striking, the “national” in music, is actually much too comprehensive to be treated under these circumstances. Let me therefore just mention that in the 19th century among others composers began to understand the national in music as a dowry from “the spirit of the people” instead of a choice of a style, as the understanding was in the 18th century when composers and their audience were concerned by the cosmopolitan und the universal.
Beethoven is an excellent example, also of the thesis that the political history influence the musical history a lot more than the other way round.
It would be meaningless here to analyse what “national” is in music terms. Let me therefore limit this with the observation that the audience, which I have referred to twice, since 1945 has developed interests very different from those of their predecessor in the 19th century in the direction of that in the 18th century. Consequently, after 1945 the “national” in music has changed value, more precisely has fallen into bad repute, so that it is now surrounded by scepticism. Interested can see how in the analysis by Carl Dahlhaus in his history of music of the 19th century.
It comes as no surprise at all that this scepticism about the national is not shared by the EU scepticism, which on its side is connected to the now outdated liberal nationalism. The opposite is also true: Liberal nationalism as negative factor is one of the reasons why EU has supporters, and this scepticism goes back to the beginning of the EU.
While it is seldom that modern composers make declarations about the “national” content of their music, and if they do then never in the terms of the 19th century, the “national” is omnipresent in popular music with perhaps the most vulgar example in the so-called “European Song Contest”. (It should rightfully be called The European Song Contempt.) It is only logical that in this environment there is a considerable scepticism about EU.
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@ 173 Mathiasen
I should avow that I also do not trust much the Wikipedia records on virtually any issue with respect to arts. I would rather read some specialized publication from a trustworthy source like the Döge house. Unfortunately, I am too busy (I am still a poor dealer in a government ruled company) and I certainly have little time for leisure. However, I appreciate you kind contribution to the present discussion, which somehow deviates from the main trend.
@ 180 Threnodio_II
“I think we will have to agree to meet half way.”
I agree. What matters are not the specifics details of the Dvorak records concerning his contribution to the neoclassic music. I would rather discuss what everybody here present would comment about his/her own appreciation of the Dvorak works. We are individuals, aren’t we? The complex professional study of any important composer’s works is to be left to the professionals. What I personally desire is to relax as much as I can listen to all those marvellous sonatas, concerts, symphonies, rhapsodies, toccatas, fugues, canons, etc., our ancestors have written for the generations to come.
@189 cool_brush_works
Thanks for the comments. The works of Elgar, Hubert Parry, Gustav Holst, Ralph Williams and other classic and new classic masters are being, though rarely performed here, in the East. The predominance of Germany, Austria, Italy and Russia /Tchaikovsky, Glinka, Mussorgsky, Rachmaninoff, Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakoff, Shostakovich, Hatchaturian, etc.) is clearly visible along with the French, the Polish, the Hungarian and the Scandinavian composers. In Bulgaria, thanks to the historic links with the Austrian Sax Cobourg Gotha royal family, with the Italian Savoy family, and with the Russian Imperial family, the prevailing classic authors come for the said three countries.
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#200. At 1:27pm on 18 Jul 2010, democracythreat,
I refer you to my post #192 where I question how it is virtually impossible in an honest court to prove a terrorist has actually done something. You say in your post that you don't like the police becoming more violent but if it is almost certain the terrorist will walk as all evidence is circumstantial what would you propose?
I think that as the legal profession has written most laws in legalese so that they can be interpreted in many different ways, and as the political profession has created laws that overlap and confuse the issue even more, the job of the security forces has become almost untenable.
As for Mandela, I recall his wife had a liking for necklaces, especially those made of rubber and filled with petrol, what a nice patriot she was. These days the same technique has been used in Holland and Belgium to destroy fixed speed cameras.
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175. At 08:15am on 18 Jul 2010, Huaimek wrote:
"#72 MarcusAuraliusII
Of course it is alright to be a commoner in the United States , where everyone is a commoner . The only elitism is superior education , riches , success in business or politics ."
"I would hardly consider Martha Stewart as being elite or aristocratic , even if very rich . You surprise me that she lived in Connecticut ; I would have guessed New Jersey ."
Martha Stewart was born and raised in the small suburban middle class town of Nutly New Jersey. She is of Polish descent. I think her father was a pharmacist. He was an obsessive compulsive type who demanded perfection in that everything had to be done exactly the way he wanted it done. Whether this is a genetic trait handed down or conditioning which shaped Martha Stewart's personality I can't say. As of the time of the scandal, she owned 15 homes and was worth well over one billion dollars. She was self made having amassed her fortune largely through her own efforts. She is admired for her enterprise and business success, despised for her intensely irritating personality. It seems to me she's done everything possible to be a blue blooded Anglo a al Americaine, something like the old money of Connecticut.
"It is not true that we are All born with nothing . Some of us are born with " A Silver Spoon in our Mouth "."
Yes but as I pointed out in the example of the Prince of Wales, what happens from that point is far more dependent on what you are than who you are. Compare his life to Bill Gates' or even Martha Stewart's and there is no comparison.
"You ask whether the British see Britain as Equal to the US .
Yes we do !
No I don't think so. Deep down Brits still consider themselves superior to everyone else including those who live in their nation's former colonies. In British eyes America is just above Zimbabwe. I think all Europeans feel the same way including towards each other deep down. Clearly the French do, probably once you get past the scars so do the Germans.
"You are right that Britain and Europe have a higher standard of education than the US . My late inlaws were both Harvard Educated and their friends were mostly Harvard or Yale educated . Mother-in-law's family were original Mayflower settlers , her maiden name the same as the original migrant ."
Actually it is not true, Europeans just think it is. America's primary and secondary education system is highly variable with some schools that turn out remarkable graduates and others who barely function. It's the same in Europe. Go to one of those schools in Budapest District 8 I mentioned to threnodious or in one of the poorer slums of London or Paris and I'm sure you will not find the graduates of those mostly minority populated schools prepared to attend Oxford or Sorbonne. On the other hand go to some of America's high end public and secondary schools such as Montessori and you will find the best and brightest who can compete with their counterparts anywhere in the world. Once you get to the college and university level, America's educational system is in a class by itself. Thousands of these schools with strong links to industry and goverment provide education superior to all others no matter where they are. That's why for example Saudi Sheikhs send their children to Harvard business schools and Stanford or Cal Tech and MIT among others instead of to London or Paris.
"It is true that perhaps as many as 95% of Americans are little educated , even if they have acquired the necessary skills to get on in life . The US benefits from great natural resourses and fresh blood and hardworking people through immigration ; all determined to make a success of their lives ."
Again not true as most Americans attend at least some college or post secondary school courses but even if it was, formal education is neither necessary nor sufficient for success in life. Some of the most productive and greatest contributors to our society had little formal education while many with the most impressive credentials go nowhere. As Gene Amdahl one of the pioneers of mainframe computers said when Life Magazine asked him about his lack of a doctorate degree, "If I need a PHD...I'll hire one." Some of these contributors were self taught, home taught or just had innate ability. We consider formal education a very valuable tool everyone should have a chance to obtain but those who haven't are not discarded like trash. Still if they want to rise in the Corporate ladder, much weight is put on formal education and other credentials, often far too much. Those who go in business for themselves (two thrids of American workers are employed by small businesses) don't need a formal education to succeed.
"I agree that choices of music can display ignorance in their inappropriatness . I live in Thailand ; western music is used on television most incorrectly ."
When it comes to the use of music to accompany programs, BBC's producers seem particularly ignorant. Perhaps it's due to a gaping hole in their formal educations. Their blunders like the ones I pointed out are laughable if inconsequential.
I think you will find that all recordings of Dvorak's "Symphony from the New World" produced before the mid 1960s refer to it as Sympthony number 5. Dvorak along with Mendelssohn are two great composers who are highly underappreciated. I do not look at music as having a political or national ownership but like all art treasures thes works belong to the entire world. I take compositions and performances on their own merit, not on where the composer came from. Very often composers born in one place produced their best work in others. Rachmaninoff was Russian but wrote his second piano concerto I think in Lucerne Switzerland and spent much of his life in America. There is no doubt where people lived influenced their work often including local folk tunes but it was still entirely their own inner creation. Gershwin was strongly influenced by jazz, his syncopated rhythms not typical of European classical music while Copland frequently used open fifth chords, a clear violation of compositional rules in European classical music up to his time. Composers also write music evocative of cultures not their own. Rimsky Korsakov's Capricio Espagnol, Tchaikowsky's Capricio Italiene, Copland's El Salon Mexico, and Gershwin's Cuban Rhapsody are some examples.
Many of the greatest works and composers were looked down on when they were contemporary. In a book called "The Lexicon of Musical Invective," much of that is documented in what in retrospect is laugable. Europeans in particular are unwilling to accept new ideas sticking to what they are handed down as tradition. That's part of their common culture.
"The Prince of Wales has had a low key life , but not devoid of any merit ; the " Princes Trust " has been a benefit to many people . Perhaps you should read up on Wikipedia(sp)before you condemn his life as empty and wasted ."
His accomplishments are not in any way commensurate with the advantages he had over most other people many of whom contributed far more. His was by comparison an idle self indulgent life with little of real value to show for the massive material wealth at his disposal. He will likely be remembered for his personal weakness and the tragedy surrounding Princess Diana.
"You rightly say that Castes in Indian , Religion and Race all play a part in ones's ability to make a success of life ; I'm not sure where Sex comes into it ."
In most places in the world, women are considered chattel and treated as being of hardly much more worth than animals. They are abused physically and mentally, treated as servants and slaves, kept uneducated, prevented from developing their full potential to better their own lives and contributing to society. India and Pakistan may have had women Prime Ministers but women by and large to not get the opportunity men do. Even murdering them often goes unpunished in many places. In Africa, China, and Japan it's often the same. How many women corporate executives of major businesses can you find in Japan?
"Perhaps the United States casting off all those past vestages is its undoing today . The US state of indebtedness , business malpractice and corruption , cannot be the envy of any country . I think it unlikely that China or India would consider catching up the US and putting themseves in the same predicament ."
You must be joking. China executed those responsible for the babay milk poisoning. Counterfitting everything from expensive European women's handbags and wristwaches to drugs for life threatening diseases is habitually overlooked in China. Just hope you are never treated with one instead of the genuine article. Corrupt government and local officials in China and India regularly expropriate land from home owners and farmers illegally so that corporate developers can make investments that return huge profits for them while those the land was stolen from get little or nothing. There is no appeal for them either, the courts turn a blind eye. No laws existing or enforced against many torts such as worker abuse, minimum wages, safe and reasonable working conditions, protection of the environment, protection of the consumer, collection of taxes. In short those with the power of money can do what they want with impunity in ways they'd never get away with in the US. Compare the cost to BP of its carelessness in the US and that of Union Carbide with its accident in India. This laissez faire policy in these conutries is why large corporations invest there. If those polices weren't in effect, those countries would still be as impovrished as they were 50 years ago.
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It is more likely that we are writing at cross purposes here than that there is any deliberate falsification. There is a wealth of literature out there but, for the sake of simplicity I would simply refer you to the Wikipedia piece - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela
We should be clear. I do not say and I have never said that the ANC as an organisation did not embrace the armed struggle. In the Wiki piece, they write "In 1961, Mandela became leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated Spear of the Nation, and also abbreviated MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated sabotage campaigns against military and government targets, making plans for a possible guerrilla war if the sabotage failed to end apartheid".
I wish to lay stress on the use of the word "sabotage". In other words, the intention of the campaign was to disrupt the apartheid regime by damaging and disrupting infrastructure. In my opinion, this is as different as bombing raids on legitimate industrial and military targets is from bombing of cities to cower civilians into submission. On 11 June 1964 was convicted in connection with his role in the ANC and spent the next 27 years.
They write "Later, mostly in the 1980s, MK waged a guerrilla war against the apartheid regime in which many civilians became casualties." In the late '80s, Mandela had already been in close confinement for the best part of 20 years. I have already given my definition of 'terrorism' as been the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. Unless it is your case that Mandela was able and willing to coordinate and direct such a campaign from Robben Island, I know of no evidence to link him with deliberate targeting of civilians in the armed struggle.
Again - "Fellow ANC member Wolfie Kadesh explains the bombing campaign led by Mandela: "When we knew that we [sic] going to start on 16 December 1961, to blast the symbolic places of apartheid, like pass offices, native magistrates courts, and things like that ... post offices and ... the government offices. But we were to do it in such a way that nobody would be hurt, nobody would get killed."
Mandela was initial convicted of "leading workers to strike in 1961 and leaving the country illegally" and subsequently of treason for which he was sentenced to 5 years. A charge of "plotting a foreign invasion of South Africa" was then brought. Since the financial aid that ANC was receiving was coming mostly through Ghana which could not possibly have mounted a military strike against South Africa, I consider that to be a trumped up charge.
So I repeat that I know of no evidence which connects Mandela personally with terrorist activities of the type I have defined but if you have any evidence to the contrary, I would be pleased to study it.
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DT.
I responded to your 201 without noticing that it was the second of two.
"With respect, you seem to know almost nothing at all about Nelson Mandela. Furthermore, your comments here would offend the man significantly. Nelson Madenla made the explicit point that the terrorist organization he founded destroyed innocent civilians in front of the "Truth and Reconciliation Committee", and he chastised all ANC members who attempted to gloss over the violent actions of his group".
You conveniently forget to mention that his "explicit point" related to events for which the ANC and others were responsible long after he himself had been convicted and imprisoned and therefore inactive.
"But if we can tear the discussion away from the emotionally charged subject of international homicide in uniform being glorious . . "
But I never argued that it was. I simply argue that when people don uniforms to commit terrible offences, you at least have an opportunity to see it coming and identify the perpetrators. (Precisely the reasoning behind my remarks in the previous thread regarding law enforcement people concealing their identity behind balaclavas. I loathe violence in a ll its manifestations but accept your argument that the world is becoming 'turning distinctly hostile and ugly' and that is why it become more important that the rule of law is upheld and this includes accountability on the part of the military and law enforcement agencies. This is why I am so strident in my condemnation of those who conduct indiscriminate and covert warfare against the soft targets of ordinary civilians. Surely you can see the logic of that?
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DT
I would like to add one footnote to the above. My original point was that people do indeed resort to covert action when they feel that they are left with no other choice. Nevertheless, they do so in the sure and certain knowledge that they are breaking the law and may have to suffer the consequences. Mandela did, after all, plead guilty to a number of charges although he flatly rejected the "trumped up" one.
That is the price of stepping outside the law. It does not follow that it is just. I still maintain that there is no evidence connecting Mandela with willful acts of violence against civilians.
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"Maybe Megrahi got lucky."
He sure did. Not everybody has BP in his corner.
Just like not every company has its government in its corner - like BAE.
[investigaton of which was stopped on...humanitarian grounds?]
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ThrenodioII
Re, Mandela & the Rivonia Trialists
Nelson Mandela was a 'terrorist': He does freely admit that - - though Mandela never excuses himself, he does bring to the description of 'terrorism' a very different perspective from almost any other of the modern era.
Don't let the Swiss sage's over-ripe pontifications blind You to the reality. Mandela was never the brutal slayer of innocent men, women & children of any 'race' or 'creed'.
It is worth noting alongside Mandela's violent-aggressive activities he had toured many African States as well as the UK attempting to drum up support for his ANC which at that time was still subordinate to the PAC: He had a mix of success & outright rejection. This was an educated man who had read widely inc. Clausewitz' 'On War' to Menachim Begin's 'The Revolt' in order to school himself in the 'techniques of resistance'. So, safe to assume, shrinking violet he was not.
Remarkably Mandela & others first received an experience of genuine 'justice' under the SA regime: In 1956 he & other prominent members of the PAC plus ANC were arrested on charges of belonging to a 'Communist' organisation - - after experiencing grim prisons, frequent maltreatment & dire threats of death under questioning - - the PAC, ANC, Mandela & members were all aquitted in 1961.
Nevertheless, having been out on bail & frequently rearrested Mandela & others then went underground and a different sort of campaign was begun: Systematic, organised violent resistance - - then & nowadays we call it terrorism. Though the connection between Mandela's actions & those of bin Laden etc. are almost non-existent.
The targets of Mandela & his cohort were buildings symbolising 'Apartheid' rule, such as Pass Offices, electricity pylons,, telephone lines, technical installations that would disrupt the 'white' regimes' Military & Police Communications with absolutely minimal likelihood of casualties:
The intention was to 1) Alarm the White Government, 2) Scare-off Foreign Investment, 3) Raise among the African Majority an awareness that resistance was possible, and 4) Attempt to further stretch distrustful rlations between the 'white Boer' whose racism dominated and the more (but still racist) open-minded Anglo-European 'whites' population.
The contrast to the indiscriminate, mass killings of bin Laden & Islamic Fundamentalist martyrs could not be more explicit.
The formation of Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK for short) in December 1961 had given the South African Apartheid regime the excuse to introduce 'detention without trial' (a decade later it was the UK in N.Ireland doing the same).
'UmweSiz' had adopted a policy of 'resistance' to Apartheid that inc. 'violence', but it was at very specific targets. It was during this 'terror' campaign Mandela & others were again apprehended.
The Rivonia Trial of Mandela & his associates marked the end of what has been known as the 'Queensbury Rules' period: The 'Witnesses' would be brought directly from the cell, by the Investigating Officer who was usually the one responsible for the frequent torture during which their 'lines' for the Court were rehearsed, and the Investigating Officer would ensure evidence matched whatever was wanted to be heard in Public.
Mandela & compatriots was arrested Sunday 5 August 1962 by Police as he drove toward Johannnesburg from his hide-out at the Lilliesleaf farm. His subsequent appearances at Remand Hearings were all accompanied by cheers & cries of 'Amandla Ngawethu!' from black Africans gathered around the Court Houses. It was some weeks before the SA Prosecution was ready to proceed with its Case against the alleged 'saboteurs'/'terrorists' & in that period, to the consternation of his Jailers, Mandela began a Correspondence Degree Course with London University - - some openly told him he had no chance of living to complete it - - this was always at the back of everyone's thought whether Defendant or Prosecution.
Before the Trial as Mandela briefed his Lawyers he made clear his feelings on the justification of his & others' actions: "..You are my lawyers. You will do what I want you to do. You are not allowed to cross-examine any witness who is telling the truth. It is of fundamental importance that I, and my fellow accused, accept responsibility for everything because what we did was the only thing we were allowed to do and that was to fight for the freedom of our people. What we must do is turn this trial in to a trial of the Government."
And that is exactly what Mandela & his co-defendants achieved:
Despite knowing he and the others all faced the possibility of the Death Penalty, Nelson Mandela day-after-day, insisted on going to Court declaring his 'guilt' and proclaiming his 'innocence' all in the same breath. This method was taken up vigorously by the ANC at an international level with its 'Free Nelson Mandela' campaign that spread around the World.
Here is where DemocThreat, as so often, loses the thread of his remarks!
That Mandela was a 'terrorist' is not the issue: It just makes defence of his actions questionable only insofar as any insurrectionist or civil disobedience by its nature has to be breaking some sort of laws. No, it is whether or not those 'laws' within which the challenge to authority is made are constituted by a legitimate Government: A 'whites-only' Government elected by less than 10% of the Adult Population & with some 85% of Adults virtually disenfranchised clearly cannot claim any sort of 'democratic' legitimacy. It does not make Mandela's actions 'non-terrorism' (I don't know of a suitable word), however, it certainly does not equate them to the suicide-bomber travelling from Lebanon, Saudi, Pakistan etc. to blow-up people & places in other Nations nor even with 'home-grown' martyrs for the cause of Islam.
Or, as Mandela himself put it at the Rivonia Trial, "..Why is it in this Courtroom I am facing a white magistrate, confronted by a white prosecutor, escorted by white orderlies, facing charges made by white laws? Can anybody honestly and seriously suggest that in this type of atmosphere the 'scales of justice' are even balanced?"
It is patently obvious these modern 'terrorist' activitists are not deprived of any Civil Liberties such as Mandela and his fellow saboteurs; nor are they akin, other than the act of violence itself, to those 'resistance movements' aggressions in WW2 Occupied Europe.
So, 3 points to DemocThreat, yes Mandela was an admitted 'terrorist', & undertook 'terrorist' activities: However, minus 5 points for typical over-embellishment, i.e. "..deaths of 26 people.. bombing campaign.." is simply not the course of events. Mandela was already in prison by the time MK adopted a much more confrontational & violent stance during the late 1970s to 80s: Though he has been criticised for not doing more to exercise control over MK from prison it is evident from many sources that Mandela deplored the the MK's breaking of Human Rights & its recklessness in later attacks. It was whilst on Robben Island Prison that he gradually made the move toward non-violent resistance, but it is very hard to see how Mandela from a prison cell could have installed that strategy on others on the outside.
Similarly, I award ThrenII my 3 points for upholding the ideal of service in uniform & that it does indeed take guts to do so (as it does to turn it down) and deduct 5pts for not knowing Mandela was an admitted 'terrorist'.
Personally, I do share with the Alpine uphill skier a degree of pleasure, millions in South Africa & around the World applauded & admired a man who had admitted to his aggressions, turned away from it & after years of imprisonment led a remarkably peaceful transition from a brutally racist, undemocratic regime to one of Universal Suffrage & Democratic representation for all Adults.
That said, any attempt to imply Mandela & bin Laden are of the same ilk (though not implicit from #185) is just the sort of 'grand moralising' distortion of reality we have come to expect from the man-with-principle-up-&-down-his-sleeves!
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'generalissimofranco' wonders what would be the fate of Poland if the Germans had defeated Russia during WW2.
About the same as it was after Russia defeated Germany and occupied Poland for almost half a century.
[cf. number of Poles who died in Nazi concentration camps with a number of Poles killed by Russians "dissapeared" in Russia's vast GULAG.]
Next question?
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"newclassic Georges Guershwin (of Russian origin)... "
Gershwin was was about as Russian as Gary Kasparov. Or Jasha Heifetz. :)
Nabokov, now he was Russian, but strangely enough he was not appreciated much, or even published in your part of the world, was he?
[Igor Stravinsky was not performed in pro-Russia Balkan countries either for almost half a century. I wonder why?]
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Edward Elgar was among the best composers of music Britain produced. He is best remembered for his Pomp and Circumstances and the Enigma Variations. At his best he wrote in a style similar to Brahms but his cello concerto is not in the same league as Dvorak's. In my house the unanimous consensus has always been that the Dvorak cello concerto was the best concerto ever written for solo instrument and orchestra by anyone for any instrument (Rodrigo's Concerto de Aranjuez for guitar and orchestra reportedly is the most popular.) I also think most of the big violin concertos in the standard repetoire are far better than Elgar's. Notable among them are Beethoven's, Brahms', Tchaikowsky's, Mendelssohn's, Glazunov's, and Khachaturian's but there are others better than Elgar's as well.
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ThrenodioII
Re Your #207 & the tosh of #201
I don't agree with You or the Swiss sage:
"...World is turning distinctly hostile and ugly.."
Any one walking in **steps** of conquest by Rome, or conquest by Genghis, or British expansion, or, American 'opening-up' of the 'west', and indeed for that matter the Aztec-Spanish conflict, the Reformation & Counter-reformation eras, to say nothing of the 2 World Wars would surely in an instant dismiss such a theory as misplaced by virtue of the news-camera bringing it into Your & my home!
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powermeerkat #210;
The humanitarian grounds were to preserve British jobs and profits.
BAE and other British military hardware contractors may have obtained at least 44 billion dollars worth of defense contracts from Saudi Arabia in return for two billion in bribes paid to Saudi princes. The British government under Blair blocked every effort by Britain's own Department of Justice to investigate it and claimed it should be dropped on national security grounds.
Part of America's special relationship with Britain is that it doesn't react when there are crimes the British government and British citizens commit against America and American interests.
On the bright side, Israelis will never have to contemplate facing Saudi F22s in air to air combat. The British planes by comparison are sitting duck targets.
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MAII re Czech composers...
When Russians invaded Czechoslovakia in August of 1968 I happened to be in Bavaria, and in company,among others, of some Czechs and Slovaks.
They, for obvious reasons, tuned in to the Pilzno [Plzen] radiostation which was merely 100 km away and we listed as a Czech speaker was saying that in a couple of seconds he'd stop broadcasting for he could see Russian tanks crashing the gate of the radiostation's compound.
Indeed a long ( ca 15-20 minute) silence on the air followed his words.
And then, a "Veltava" from Bedrih Smetana's symphonic poem "Ma Vlast" (My Homeland) started too ooze from somebody's small transistor radio.
That's how we found out that Russian inv...err... aficionados of patriotic Czech music were already in control of "Ma Vlast".
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"212. At 3:56pm on 18 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
'generalissimofranco' wonders what would be the fate of Poland if the Germans had defeated Russia during WW2.
About the same as it was after Russia defeated Germany and occupied Poland for almost half a century.
[cf. number of Poles who died in Nazi concentration camps with a number of Poles killed by Russians "dissapeared" in Russia's vast GULAG.]
Next question?"
++++++++
No question but just an observation. At least the evil Polish empire of the 1920-30s was defeated and buried for ever. And the Ukrainians and Belorussians were apparently liberated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32HBqgQ5NZ8
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I have just discovered an interesting news story that probably will not make the headlines where you live, here in Switzerland.
As an "intellectual exercise", a Swiss MP Dominique Baettig suggested to the Swiss parliament that the Swiss federation should "allow" neighbouring provinces in Italy, Germany, France and Austria to join the Swiss federation.
Now apparently this got out to a German paper who then conducted a widespread survey of those regions.
Curiously, or not, every region in every neighbouring country had a majority of respondents who wanted to give up their regions' current nationality and become Swiss.
I find this extremely interesting.
Consider, patriotism is very strong. Even people who have serious complaints about their state usually wave the flag and believe their countries are great.
And yet the majority of people from all four neighbouring country provinces wanted to give up their flag and adopt the Swiss way of life.
In other words, those Europeans who live next to Switzerland and who see and understand the differences want to be Swiss. Italians, Germans, French and Austrians. None of them have a majority of nationalist citizens who prefer their current system over the Swiss system.
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MAII: "I also think most of the big violin concertos in the standard repetoire are far better than Elgar's. Notable among them are Beethoven's, Brahms', Tchaikowsky's, Mendelssohn's, Glazunov's, and Khachaturian's but there are others better than Elgar's as well."
Bach's and Wieniawski's violin concertos come easily to mind.
And as far as piano concertos - certain Chopin.
Not to mention Mozart. :)
BTW. One of my British friends told me once, in all seriousness, that the greatest English composer of all times was ...Haendel. [sic]
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Further to my last post, 70 to 80% of people asked said they considered the direct democracy in Switzerland was the main reason they found the country attractive. This was higher than the percentage who cited low taxes.
You can listen to a discussion of the survey on world radio.
I have not seen this survey reported as news ANYWHERE else.
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217. At 4:34pm on 18 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
MAII re Czech composers...
When Russians invaded Czechoslovakia in August of 1968 I happened to be in Bavaria, and in company,among others, of some Czechs and Slovaks.
++++++
You must be 70+ then, comrade. Funny how you don't come across as someone that old in you posts.
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Further to the subject of those who wish to join Switzerland, it seems that the majority of those surveyed said they did NOT want to see the EU fail.
Which is curious. So this is not a bunch of EU haters. They want the EU to be more democratic. They would leave it to join Switzerland because of their political rights, but they would prefer to see the EU adopt the same system of direct democracy, because they see the results for their swiss neighbours.
It is a very, very interesting case study of what people who know about these things (because they live next to it) really think.
The survey was conducted by a german magazine, incidentally, not by the Swiss.
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MAII #216 Re F-22...
Here's some nice thrust vectoring :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzpRZuYk7Mo&feature=related
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"You must be 70+ then, comrade. Funny how you don't come across as someone that old in you posts."
No, I'm not.[sorry!]
Just like I am not a comrade of any...Normans. :)
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DT,
A little googling got me that it was a Swiss magazine that asked for the survey to be conducted (Weltwoche) by the Institut SwissOpinon and I came across the numbers in various German & French newspapers. Also, widespread might be a bit of an overstatement, they apparently interviewed 1791 people. I'm not quite sure if that was 1791 in every region, or 1791 in total. Because if it's 1791 in total, then I'm a bit sceptical about how representative that would be. Also, not all the regions were for, in France it was less than half the respondents that said they'd want to join up with Switzerland, as in some German areas. There were more favourable votes than against, but a lot of people who seemed to rather not care either way.
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223. At 5:03pm on 18 Jul 2010, democracythreat
The two most conservative federal states of Germany are neighbours of Switzerland. Alsace is conservative too. What magazine was it?
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Powermeerkat;
Here's an excerpt of the footage at the 2008 air show at Farnsworth originally broadcast by BBC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9wLKvXMxZ0&feature=related
The problem with planes of this type is that they can accelerate so quickly that keeping the pilot from blacking out is a real problem as blood rushes away from his brain. You can be sure that successors to this plane are on the drawing board if not in testing already. The era of manned fighter jets may be coming to an end because in the future, planes will have to accelerate beyond what is tolerable by humans to survive combat and execute their missions. Drones have many advantages and will probably be able to carry a larger weapons payload without the need to sustain the pilot.
As of now, there is probably no aircraft that can successfully take on the F22 if it is flown by a highly skilled pilot.
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177.Chris Camp wrote: For at least 30 years, the EU-haters...\
EU-hate = democracy-love
and
EU-love = democracy-hate
For thirty years, Europe's been going from strength to strength.
Nothing to do with the existence of the EU, however the EU did have a role in worsening the crisis for many countries who are now also dragged down by corrupt Mediterranean countries who do nothing but sponge off the north.
Let me ask you a question, you seem to be in favor of the EU, so: why do you hate democracy so much?
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195 threnodio writes:
"This along with the death of his beloved Alice gave birth to a number of late works, mainly chamber music but also to glorious 'cello concerto in which we hear an altogether more winsome and thoughtful composer. This, to my mind, is some of his greatest music and very much of the 20th century."
Elgar wrote the cello concerto in 1919, a year before Alice's death. My husband, an Elgar aficiaonado, tells me that Elgar in fact wrote nothing of any importance after she died in 1920.
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#216
On your high horse again Marcus? Google "bribery by American companies" and keep yourself very busy whilst waiting for your next serving of mashed banana. The creative use of foreign subsidiaries to evade FCPA investigation is particularly interesting.
For example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4310331.stm
And:
http://industry.bnet.com/technology/10007094/hp-overseas-bribery-scandal-could-turn-into-a-us-problem/
Or even:
http://news.alibaba.com/article/detail/business-in-china/100155046-1-doj%253A-us-company-admits-bribing.html
How about:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE50P5ZE20090126
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Re #229 And here an old fashion stuff in an old fashioned Falcon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ZhI_NL8cc&feature=related
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@220 powermeerkat
"And as far as piano concertos - certain Chopin."
I agree, if we add to his holy name certain Tchaikovsky...
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@213 powermeerkat
"[Igor Stravinsky was not performed in pro-Russia Balkan countries either for almost half a century. I wonder why?]
It's certainly not true. For the rest, I agree.
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#229. At 6:10pm on 18 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII,
"As of now, there is probably no aircraft that can successfully take on the F22 if it is flown by a highly skilled pilot."
That lets out the US pilots then, they couldn't even handle a Harrier.
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Re post #204, would the moderators please explain why a moderate post has been referred, was it because I dared to refer to the wife of a supposed hero of the SA republic?
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Re $229
I'm not aware of any plans for 6th generation manned combat aircraft.
Most likely anything which comes after B-2, F-22 and F-35 will be UAV (except for a heavy lift and spec op craft like Osprey).
And that pertains to strategic recon as well.
[doesn't make much sense to put a human in a Mach 6 - Mach 10, 100 000 ft + flying aircraft. Particularly when it's going to be computer-linked to a multilayer network of other assets anyhow.]
So let's enjoy the old fashioned stuff when it lasts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdRVbr1OfKc&feature=related
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Well, well, well. ElagabalusII is an expert Edward Elgar, too? Aren't we all lucky to have almost every aspect of British culture picked apart by this wonderful contributor.
You must have studied our country for a long time to become such an authority, Ellie. I know because I checked. There are many easily-accessible sources of information that can be used, 'lifted', so to speak, to support the view you present. There are thousands of opposing views, too, some of them highly convincing, but I imagine you attended a specific school or reasearch centre that disproves the opinions of all of these academics.
I take my hat off to you, Sir.
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@189 power_meer_kat
"Now, as for Dvorak (1841-1904), he is surely a very great composer too: That he has on here become associated with the prize clown MAII is not to be held against him (at least not much or for long)."
For the first time in the last three years, I have noted that our fellow blogger MAII had really appreciated some excellent artistic achievement that had come from his 'beloved Europe' /I mean the Dvorak contribution to the neoclassic music, or more precisely, to the proliferation of the classic music in the New World/. I assess his posting as a remarkable evidence of good intended reconsideration of all his previous posts.... if I am not mistaken once again...
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@212 powermeerkat
"About the same as it was after Russia defeated Germany and occupied Poland for almost half a century."
You mean a Polish state with the same vast territory including the bigger part of Eastern Prussia /as it appeared on the political map after May 9th 1945/. I am going to cry.
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222. At 5:02pm on 18 Jul 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:
"217. At 4:34pm on 18 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
When Russians invaded Czechoslovakia in August of 1968 I happened to be in Bavaria, and in company,among others, of some Czechs and Slovaks.
++++++
You must be 70+ then, comrade. Funny how you don't come across as someone that old in you posts."
EUpris: No, Tovarich!! I am less than 65 but remember being in Bulgaria during the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia.
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219. At 4:55pm on 18 Jul 2010, democracythreat wrote:
" ... Even people who have serious complaints about their state usually wave the flag and believe their countries are great. ..."
EUpris: Do you have any worthwhile evidence to support that assertion?
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218. At 4:48pm on 18 Jul 2010, Norman Conquest wrote:
"212. At 3:56pm on 18 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
'generalissimofranco' wonders what would be the fate of Poland if the Germans had defeated Russia during WW2.
About the same as it was after Russia defeated Germany and occupied Poland for almost half a century."
EUpris: I suggest that it would have been far worse. Going from memory and my reading of "Hitler's Vienna" by Brigitte Hamann, he hated the Czechs just as much as he hated the Jews and he hated all Slavs. So I suggest he would have massacred the Czechs and then the Poles.
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#229. At 6:10pm on 18 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII,
Looking at your F22 Raptor link reminds me of the difference between a WWII Fortress and a WWII Lancaster, the bomb bay is minuscule in comparison, but then maybe the Fortress designers even then knew that there was little chance of a US bomb aimer actually hitting the target, whereas the RAF did mostly hit the target just as now. I think you guys in the US should stick to using drones since as long as you get the map reference right there a bit of a chance you hit the target.
PS. I notice on YouTube that it flew before 1992 so it's not exactly latest technology.
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My goodness, you have all been busy in my absense - well everyone except DT who, having accused me of being unable to substantiate my suggestions has posted several times on other matters but studiously ignored my request for further and better evidence.
#211 - cool_brush_work
Thank you. A very serious and thoughtful consideration and I promise I will not be browbeaten. However. with respect -
"Mandela was never the brutal slayer of innocent men, women & children of any 'race' or 'creed'". This was precisely my point.
"Similarly, I award ThrenII my 3 points for upholding the ideal of service in uniform & that it does indeed take guts to do so (as it does to turn it down) and deduct 5pts for not knowing Mandela was an admitted 'terrorist'".
Generous but a bit unfair. I freely acknowledge Mandela's plea of guilt of some of the charges brought against him and I respect his subsequent honesty in demanding that the ANC be open and frank with the commission. But you said it yourself - my definition of a terrorist is a "the brutal slayer of innocent men, women & children of any 'race' or 'creed'".
Mandela was not one of these and I demand an immediate refund of 5 points shamefully deducted.
#220 - powermeercat.
"Bach and Wieniawski come to mind". Unlike Wienawski, Bach once there remains there. Where the absurd idea that Bach and Mozart are romantics is quire beyond me.
#229 - MarcusAureliusII
"Here's an excerpt of the footage at the 2008 air show at Farnsworth originally broadcast by BBC"
Farnborough Marcus. You take the cursor, highlight the text you want to copy and type Ctrl+C then go to the appropriate field and type Ctrl+V. How hard is that? Get it right.
#231 - margaret howard
"Elgar wrote the cello concerto in 1919, a year before Alice's death. My husband, an Elgar aficiaonado, tells me that Elgar in fact wrote nothing of any importance after she died in 1920".
Oh, how tedious. My point was that his style changed as a direct response to the Great War. I merely underlined that the loss of Alice deepened his sense of loss. The timing of the 'cello concerto is neither here nor there in this context but you can't resist it can you?
The remaining works are:
The 8 songs 'Pageant of Empire'
The 'Nursery Suite'
'The Spanish Lady'
The Third Symphony.
The Pageant is a throw back to the 'glory days', the Nursery Suite', a rather delightful piece of whimsy along the lines of 'the Wand of Youth', 'The Spanish Lady' was incomplete as is the third symphony, although Anthony Payne's (family authorised) performing version has acquired some recognition. You have singled out the remark about Alice's death and totally disregarded my point about the Great War the better to underline the opinion of an 'aficiaonado' as opposed to one an expert. Can you quote me one?
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To democracythreat (219):
In other news...
"Poll Says Most Americans Believe Saddam-9/11 Link Has Been Proven
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0701-05.htm
The fact that people say that they believe that something is so or not, or that they want or don't want something, doesn't necessarily make that thing true or desirable.
The fact of the matter is that most people either don't know, don't care or are incapable to apprehend and do rational decision making at all in national, regional or global level. However what these people do understand is that they aren't the right ones to make these decisions, thus they understand and accept representational presentation where they elect people to make decisions behalf of them.
I would also like again to remind you that Switzerland isn't a direct democracy, it is a country that believes that it is a direct democracy. This belief on being a direct democracy serves the interests of Swiss banking and financial industries and wealthy individuals. This belief with following legislation both acts as an brake that cements the system as it is dwarfing any reforms and any change in the business environment and in the same creates a moral justification for the whole system as it is directly decidable by the people.
The whole Swiss system is just another sham to enable corporates and wealthy individuals to operate above the law or how do you explain that recent research has estimated that Swiss capital markets have approx 648 billion euros (880 billion Swiss francs) of illegal capital from EU alone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_Switzerland
If Switzerland is really a direct democracy then the Swiss people are accomplishes in these financial crimes. How is it?
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"EU-hate = democracy-love
and
EU-love = democracy-hate"
Do you expect an answer to that? Someone else might, but I am not going to dignify that with an answer. I am sceptical of the EU and I am fully in favour of democratic progress in Europe. But the EU-haters destroy the credibility of all and every type of Euro-scepticism with their persistent hyperbole, ignorance and wishful thinking.
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@229 MAII
"Drones have many advantages and will probably be able to carry a larger weapons payload without the need to sustain the pilot."
Correct. The risk of sacrificing the pilots' life will be totally removed.
@238 powermeerkat
Well, the old stuff /F-22 Raptor/ seems to be the last cry of the manned fighter/light bomber aviation /if we do not exclude of course the Su-30 and the last version of the French Rafale/. However, I have noticed that the shape of the wings/stabilizers are purely symmetric, which fact if added to the anti-radar coating means that the instrument interception of the aircraft has little chance to do any good, say at higher flights. I wonder who in this world had inspired the designers to shape the wings/stabilizers profile like that.
For the rest, I agree; even the Mach4s were a challenge to the pilots...
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#239 - stirling222
Marcus is an expert on Elgar. I would love to elaborate but some aliens have just arrived and asked me whether I would mind being kidnapped. Can I get back to you?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Stringaling;
"You must have studied our country for a long time to become such an authority"
I always thing it is a good idea for people to know as much as possible about enemies and potential enemies. If nothing else it helps you see through their nefarious plots.
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#252 - MarcusAureliusII
Is a "nefarious plot" what we call an allotment?
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threnodio_II wrote:
"My goodness, you have all been busy in my absense - well everyone except DT who, having accused me of being unable to substantiate my suggestions has posted several times on other matters but studiously ignored my request for further and better evidence."
I did, but got moderated. Curiously, the mods do not reject my comments, so i cant adjust them and repost. They place them in limbo.
In any case, your backpedalling on the subject of Mandela is fairly self evident. You asking me for evidence, after you ran off to wiki in order to inform yourself of the very basics of the matter, is not hugely impressive.
You now write:
""Mandela was never the brutal slayer of innocent men, women & children of any 'race' or 'creed'". This was precisely my point."
If that was your point, you are steadfastly refusing to face the bare facts.
The guy founded a terrorist group whose primary aim was to carry out bombings on civilian targets.
That is the fact, threnodio. Face it. He wasn't "associated" with it. He wasn't "accused of involvement" in some obscure way.
He has readily and publicly admitted that he founded this organization, and he has stated that its aims were to carry out bombings on civilian targets.
And innocent people were thus killed. Many of them.
And yet you continue with your claim that he is not a terrorist.
It is willful blindness to facts which do not suit your beliefs, and you seem unable to face that reality and change your views.
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@248 Chris Camp
"But the EU-haters destroy the credibility of all and every type of Euro-scepticism with their persistent hyperbole, ignorance and wishful thinking."
How true.
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Jukka, your comments about Switzerland make no sense at all.
But I do understand you when you say:
"The fact of the matter is that most people either don't know, don't care or are incapable to apprehend and do rational decision making at all in national, regional or global level."
Nice.
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ElagabalusII: "I always thing it is a good idea for people to know as much as possible about enemies and potential enemies. If nothing else it helps you see through their nefarious plots"
OK, mate, that's great... You keep up the good work. you can't be too careful!
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Jukka_Rohilla
Re #247
Whilst agreeing more-or-less with Your comment about the inaccuracy of the 'direct democracy' claims made on behalf of Switzerland I think You also are revealing of the true state of the EUropean Union You clearly support.
E.g. Almost certainly Your figure of "..648 Billion EUros of illegal capital from the EU alone.." is an underestimate and even if accurate says as much about the EU as it does Switzerland.
Why would there be 648 billions illicitly transferred beyond EU Regulation?
Surely the entity known as the EU is of such immense quality and beneficence nobody but the lowest common form of crook would seek to transfer their Monies out of it!? Are You seriously stating masses of Businesses having made their profits within the EU are re-routing their substantial funds elsewhere: Why would they do that if the Brussels' institution is such a magnificent achievement?
As for "..Swiss system is just another sham to enable corporates and wealthy individuals to operate above the law..", isn't it also a fairly accurate description of how significant areas of the EU operated for the last 2 decades?
How else do we account for only 4 of 15 Nations actually qualifying for EUro-zone membership at the start and yet Brussels' Leadership & Frankfurt ECB both have been seen to be complicit in relaxing/turning blind eyes to rules in order to get the EUro-zone underway?
Just as You assert the Swiss Citizens may be 'accomplices' in their Nation's underhand Fiscal-Economic practises, so, it is evidently the case the core EU-Brussels apparatus is administered by many like-minded, corrupt EUrocrats & Politicians.
However, most alarming from my viewpoint is Your oh-so-typical 'pro-EU' dismissal of the intelligence, rights & responsibilities of Your fellow EU Citizens: When You state, "..these people understand they aren't the ones to make these decisions, thus they understand and accept representational presentation.." it is a valid point of view and can always be argued on behalf of that form of 'Democratic' methodology. However, as the EU has almost no 'Representational presentation where they elect people to make the decisions on their behalf..' where exactly do Citizens of the EU get any say at all?
Nothing about the last 4 EP Voter Turnouts of less than 50% suggests Citizen consent never mind a Mandate to act on their behalf; nor does the unelected Commission and its cobbling together of compromise candidates (e.g. Baroness Ashton) reflect any type of 'representation', and as for the entirely unendorsed-by-Citizens major EU Treaties such as Maastricht & Lisbon their enactments are directly contradictory to and bear no relationship to the 'Democracy' You are attempting to describe!
Switzerland may be no better, but its Democratic Representation is certainly no worse than that of the EU systems You profess to admire.
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Meanwhile, back in the real world -
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100718-703225.html
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@252 MAII
“Stringaling;
"You must have studied our country for a long time to become such an authority"
I always thing it is a good idea for people to know as much as possible about enemies and potential enemies. If nothing else it helps you see through their nefarious plots.”
I clean forgot you wanted to be Commander in chief.
/America has many enemies, even on Mars. And now I understand why president Obama approved of the manned flight to that planet. You should carefully check up any corner there…/
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#169 MarcusAurellius
--And that coming from YOU, who I caught counting NUCLEAR BOMBS at home ?
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ThrenodioII
Re #246
Having read the appeal the aforementioned panel has found in favour of the appellant and directs that 4 of the 5 deducted points be restored at once without conditions.
Re MHoward - - Aye, the Scots lass enjoys a dig at the English on any and every score!
Anyone familiar with Elgar's works would have known of Your implication in the reply made to me: MH has been tiresome in the extreme and on such an uncontroversial matter.
However, she is strangely quiet on Scotland & Megrahi - - could it be as it is not a Sassenach at fault she's at a loss for words!?
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DT
"In any case, your backpedalling on the subject of Mandela is fairly self evident. You asking me for evidence, after you ran off to wiki in order to inform yourself of the very basics of the matter, is not hugely impressive".
It was never my purpose to impress you and I did not "run off" anywhere. I simply thought it sensible to refer to a very simple analysis, not least because we have steered so far off topic that to continue in depth would have been futile.
Be that as it may, you have not offered your evidence. You have offered your opinion that "The guy founded a terrorist group whose primary aim was to carry out bombings on civilian targets" . when in fact what you meant was "The guy founded a terrorist group whose subsequent aim was to carry out bombings on civilian targets".
Anyway, just as you object to being 'bullied' (as you see it) by others here, so do I. Not for the first time, our views diverge.
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Oliver Tambo told me that the reason why the ANC was driven to the use of arms was that for a long time they tried peaceful means of protest against apartheid but these not only got them nowhere, it just led the apartheid regime to use violence against the protestors. In other words they were forced into the fight. Given that Tambo was quite obviously a decent, honest and well-mannered man his words carried great potency.
The argument as to when does a freedon-fighter become a terrorist is quite bogus. The question has to be when can political violence be legitimate?
This opens an entire can of worms. Within British society as currently constituted political violence has no legitimacy. In fact anyone who does adopt a violent political strategy within the UK will not only risk becoming isolated but actually prevent the outcome they desire.
However, in other countries and in other circumstances the situation can be quite different
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#262 - cool_brush_work
Could it be that the prospect of being forced to agree with MAII was more than she could bear?
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" We don't ban Che Guevara tee-shirts, so why should we ban the burqa?"
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100047682/we-dont-ban-che-guevara-tee-shirts-so-why-should-be-ban-the-burqa/
EUprisoner: 1) Because, Daniel, T-shirts don't cover the face.
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54 / Nik
247 / Jukka Rohila
It is interesting to see that more and more people start seeing what is happening with their own country: how banks and corporations
- bribe their leaders,
- take everything that brings wealth and nationalize those that do not make money immediately,
- force them into debt spirals to get an unlimited control over the country,
- educate them false principles that deliberately weakens the immune system of the nation and let them operate more efficiently,
- make people believe that countries who exploit other countries the most are actually helping them out.
I guess the next step for the people to realize that it is not their politicians to blame: they are quite literally forced into making deals that put their countries into a very difficult situation (after having ruined local businesses everywhere, banks and multinational corporations have more power than any country, and as a final solution they can use the American Empire's army, so it is hard to say no to them). I hope that soon people will see the connections and instead of being angry at their leaders they will unite and get rid of the parasites. They may have a lot of money, but without us, the people, it is just paper (or even worse, some numbers in a computer's hard drive).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"We don't ban Che Guevara tee-shirts, so why should we ban the burqa?"
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100047682/we-dont-ban-che-guevara-tee-shirts-so-why-should-be-ban-the-burqa/
EUprisoner: El Gringo Hannan is frequently right but not always!
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Re #254
"..innocent people were killed.. many of them.."
Not so: Simply not supported by fact. Mandela was already imprisoned when the MK changed its 'bombing' policy to one of direct confrontation with the Apartheid regime and chose to widen its type of targets.
During Mandela's direct involvement the number of casualties was very limited, this was directly due to his preference for a strategy of attacking unoccupied targets and/or by night such as Telecommunications, Electric pylons, Power Stations, Government Offices (at weekends) etc.
As Mandela wrote on the opening page of his chapter dealing with the policy of the MK, '..In planning the direction and form that the MK would take... it made sense to start with the form of violence that inflicted the least harm against individuals: Sabotage..'
He went on, '..we did not want to start a blood-feud between black and white...' and that, '..Sabotage had the aded virtue of requiring the least manpower.'
In the same chapter Mandela stipulates that all MK members were forbiden to go armed into an operation and were not to endanger life in any way.
The first casualty whilst Mandela was still free & living underground was in fact a member of the MK who was killed in an explosion at a power station.
The casualties You have referred to happened over years and Mandela was not on trial at Rivonia for any murder/killing as You imply.
Nelson Mandela was 92 today (actually yesterday Finn time): It is to his eternal credit that under his influence virtually nothing of the sort of violence associated with modern 'terrorism' notably of the brutally uncaring Islamic Fundamentalist activities took place in South Africa.
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"We don't ban Che Guevara tee-shirts, so why should we ban the burqa?"
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100047682/we-dont-ban-che-guevara-tee-shirts-so-why-should-be-ban-the-burqa/
EUprisoner: Daniel! According to "EU"-Directive No. 342,356,479 paragraph 457,786 subsection 342,112 "Ow To Speaka Da Inglish" by Juan Hus Della Malvinas the correct spelling is "T-shirt".
Have you no respekt for "EU" - law???????
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So when I quote stuff unfavourable to Sarkozy from the Austrian Radio website the moderator removes it.
Well there is more stuff there now. I ain't gonna waste my time translating it only to have the moderator remove it.
Is the "EU"-Thought-Police standing over you guys and gals in jackboots aiming machine guns at your heads?
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ThrenodioII
Re #265
Guffaw x 10 and I now award the additional previously deducted point on grounds of 'that thoughts music to my ears, eyes, nose & throat!'
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#273 - cool_brush_work
Thank you. I shall file them under BP.
(No Marcus, Brownie Points not . . . oh never mind).
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Nik
Re #61
Sorry, I have now read Your #61 for the umpteenth time and it still does not make any sense except as a mad-Greek totally overwhelmed by the idea the whole World is against You & Yours!
Unless all at the same time the entire western defence alliance has lost its geo-political mind, neither Greece, nor Cyprus and cetainly not Turkey figure that highly in the daily/weekly/monthly briefings of NATO in Brussels.
Though I suspect the EU of many things I cannot imagine its Leadership either busies itself fulminating about Athens except for the very basic & obvious fact Greece owes loads of dosh & nobody knows if it will pay-up!
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#240, generalissimo_franco
General, I’d like to mention a few things from my experience.
The other day I read an article about dating on www. People are lying about their education and professional experience. They brag about their looks, and the newest trick is to lie about your sexual identity and write that you are bi-sexual.
You might know that internet providers are now having filters on emails to prevent spam. It is now a couple of years ago since I the last time received mails offering me academic titles of my own choice - it was of course understood that I didn’t have to bother with readings or passing of any examen. With the appropriate payment I could simply call myself doctor or professor.
Such titles can be used on CVs of course, and they are full of imprecise information and lies about education and their working experience.
Some weeks ago I read an article by a mother language teacher in upper secondary school. She proposed the abolition of essay writing - something that has been done for at least a hundred years, I believe. The reason is the pupils never write anything and the teacher spends most of her time as detective. The pupils find a text on www and replace the name of the author with their own, or they visit the specialised www site that has solutions or links to texts that can be used as an essay. The pupils have not learned anything. Also, they have written one word of it.
They all strut in borrowed plumes.
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Mathiasen wrote:
"The other day I read an article about dating on www. People are lying about their education and professional experience. They brag about their looks, and the newest trick is to lie about your sexual identity and write that you are bi-sexual."
That is a trick?
I'm getting old. And fat!
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The Jay and the Peacock, by some greek guy who wrote fables
"A Jay venturing into a yard where Peacocks used to walk, found there a number of feathers which had fallen from the Peacocks when they were moulting. He tied them all to his tail and strutted down towards the Peacocks. When he came near them they soon discovered the cheat, and striding up to him pecked at him and plucked away his borrowed plumes. So the Jay could do no better than go back to the other Jays, who had watched his behaviour from a distance; but they were equally annoyed with him, and told him: "It is not only fine feathers that make fine birds."
You do make an interesting point, Mathiasen.
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@220 powermeerkat
"And as far as piano concertos - certain Chopin."
generalissimofranco: "I agree..."
Generalissimo, although there are no great piano/violin concertos by Bulgarian composers I consider Bulgarian folk music the richest in Europe.
Although you may not appreciate me adding, that its partly due to a mixture of beautiful Slavic tunes (sung by gorgeous Bulgarian altos and basses) with fascinating Turkish aksak [crippled] rhythms.[31/16s, etc.]
[Poles, for reasons you've mentioned -Vienna Battle - were deprived of those fascinating rhythms.
BUT instead Poles got Turkish coffee AND croissants [crescents] baked after the battle by greateful Viennese. :)]
P.S. Please, listen to Wieniawski's d-minor Violin Concerto
[everybody who's ever been anybody has recorded it, incl. Oistrakh].
You may like it.
[Not that Karol Szymanowski's violin concertos are lousy]
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@213 powermeerkat
"[Igor Stravinsky was not performed in pro-Russia Balkan countries either for almost half a century. I wonder why?]
It's certainly not true. For the rest, I agree.
generalissimo
please, quote me specific examples of of Igor Stravinsky's works created in the 2nd half of the XX century [such as for example his D-major Mass]
performed in Soviet-occupied countries in the 50s or 60s.
Or, for that matter, works of such Russian composers as Gubaydulina and Schnitke.
That's a rhetorical question: there were as many as publications of Nabokov's, Pasternak's or Solzhenitsyn's novels.
Or exhibits of Chagall's, Malevich's or Kandinsky's paintings:-(((
NONE!
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Serbia, Montenegro, Cyprus and Bulgaria as being within the scope of its historic interests."""
100% Correct.
"""All of them owe their independence more or less to the Russian successful wars against the Ottoman Empire."""
generalissimofranco [who's still dead, btw., last time I checked]
Do present day Albania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary (drown in blood by Russia in 1956), Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Slovenia, etc., once dominated by the Ottomans, own their independence to Moscow, or to the fact that the Evil Empire (U$A) has soundly and irreversibly defeated the Homeland of the World Proletariat (Russian/Soviet Empire)?
[Curious meerkats want to know]
JUST SAY IT! [expressis verbis]
["YES, YOU CAN! :)]
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A posdter form you know where: "You must be 70+ then, comrade. Funny how you don't come across as someone that old in you posts."
EUpris: No, Tovarich!! I am less than 65 but remember being in Bulgaria during the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia.
meerkat: So am I, by I even remember the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956, and an ensuing slaughter of Hungarian 'fascists'.
[I may be a meerkat, but I've got an elephant memory: I even remember why a certain monument erected in Vienna under Soviet occupation is called informally by older Viennese women Tomb of the Unknown Rapist]
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EUpris: So I suggest he [Hitler] would have massacred the Czechs and then the Poles.
And what do you think Stalin (Hitler's staunch ally till June 1941) did to the Polish nation between 1939 and 1953?
Do names Kharkiv, Katyn, Kolyma, Kozelsk, Magadan, Ostashkov, Sakhalin, Starobelsk, Verkhoyansk, Vorkuta, etc., ring a bell? HELLO!]
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Re 'Is a "nefarious plot" what we call an allotment?'
If you refer to a "Dirty Dozen" just expelled from U$A to Russia - Lubyanka comrades have exceeded their normal allotment.
And the same [expulsions] will happen too to Beijing comrades.
Sorry about that. [[it must have hurt a lot. ;(]
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I stand corrected: I thought that only KGB (SVR) was still operating.
I was not aware that notorious Bulgarian Sigurnost as well.
Sorry about that.
[btw. my name is not Grigory Markov. Or Karol Wojtyla. Just in case]
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@287 powermeerkat
"I stand corrected: I thought that only KGB (SVR) was still operating.
I was not aware that notorious Bulgarian Sigurnost as well.
Sorry about that.
[btw. my name is not Grigory Markov. Or Karol Wojtyla. Just in case]"
I shall save much of your efforts to persuade me of your argument, provided it is good. The killing of Gueorgui Markov is the biggest shame my country still suffers from for the mere reason that all investigations for the conspirancy only confirmed the plot mounted by our security agency (KDS) and nothing else. The people here are still choked when the name of Markov is evoked on some occasion. Years are to pass before the europeans will accept us as normal people.
As to the case of John Paul II, I am not sure of our direct involvement. If proofs will be found evidencing it, I shall be among those who will really suffer much. John Paul II was an exceptional man. He did not stop repeating until his last days, that he was guided by the holy divinity (I mean by the love for the human kind) when he adressed everybothy, even his supposed enemies (who finished by surredering!!!). He was slav like us, and that circumstance made his presence even more comprehensible, more human. Surprised?
P.S. Shall revert very soon in order to comment your earliers posts concerning the Russian masters in fine arts, classic music and litterature. (I am a graduate from the Leningrad Naval acadamy, and, I have called many times at your Baltic ports.)
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re: Switzerland and its secret bank accouts...
"Safe deposit boxes believed to contain manuscripts and drawings by the late author Franz Kafka are due to be opened at a bank in Zurich." (BBC)
Now, that interests me much more than than the content of secret deposits of German/American tax evaders.
[Sorry, Angela and Barack]
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Catch up of the horrible things said up to now...
92. At 10:12am on 17 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
“””Re "I wonder what kind of Turkish soldiers invaded Cyprus in 1974, and what kind of Ottoman soldiers the Poles defeated in 1683 at the outskirts of Vienna?
They were excellent soldiers then too.”””
How excellent were the Ottoman soldiers we can measure it in how many Russo-Ottoman wars they won (out of 9 I think they had lost 8 despite sending 3 and 4 times more soldiers than Russians…) and in the “difficulty” (= pathetic ease) that little towns of North Italy controlled whole areas in the Ionian and Aegean for centuries after the accident of history that is called Ottoman Empire arrived in the scene. Now, how excellent were the Turkish soldiers who invaded Cyprus cannot be measured by their feat of attacking a defenceless island prepared by US-puppet dictator Ioannidis who staged the false milititary intervention to give Turks a pretext all while having already closed all Greek units there in the previous months.
If Turks were so good then why the US fell on the Greek army to prevent a counter-coup against dictator Ioannidis as well fell on Greek politicians like Karamanlis to ensure that Greece would not do any war against Turkey. Was it true that Turkey was still behind back then having no valid navy or airforce. Is it true or not? Start asking the people who now before saying whatever. At least read Demirel, the Turkish general who in his memories writes that “It was not us, it was the Greeks (i.e. the US-imposed dictator Ioannidis) that gave us half the island. We stopped at the point the British showed us.” Etc. etc.
“””[Those who perpetrated ENOSIS, provking Turkish invasion in 1974 - clearly weren't, as subsequent developments showed]”””
Whatever. By the way you are really Polish? Your hatred towards Greeks stems out of your blind love of Turks (what if they genocided 4 million people? What if they did the worst crimes human beings can ever do, that is no problem for you as long as victims are Greeks, Armenians, Assyrochaldeans, Bulgarians, Serbians etc.). All that matter for you is that Turkey is a traditional enemy of Russia you hate the most. Nice logic there.
You ignore even the basics of the recent history of Cyprus so I shouldn't be even discussing it further, at first I had to start by showing you the island on the map, describing you the numbers and features of the island etc before passing to more complex stuff, like the one you try to touch and fail.
“””P.S. I can fully understand that for historical reasons many Greeks and Balkan Slavs still hate Turks (more or less openely).”””
You can understand nothing. You are simply insulting the memory of 4 million Christian civilians which were genocided – most of them without any particular war implicating them being in concern – the memory of which Turks (and even other muslims) celebrate joyfully.
“””But how long can you live in the past which is not going to return?”””
What past? We are talking very much of today. Are you so ignorant to see what is happening today?
“””Ottoman Empire you still hate will not be resurrected.”””
But Britain is still there.
“””And neither will Russian Empire many of you still love and miss.”””
In case you did not know Russia is still the biggest country in the world with more than double the size of the second largest. Empires traditionally are measured on their landmass and thus Russia is by far the greatest on earth. Time to open a map before you speak.
“””Both - gone with the wind. Like many similar empires before them.”””
And like wannabe ones…
“””Perhaps you should try and live in the present.”””
Start doing it for a change yourself. We live very much in the present and know what is going on. You live in the past.
“””Then you might have a future. Good luck!”””
We will have a future as long as the people you admire in a slave-like relationship (you are Polish aren’t you?) will let it be so.
177. At 08:37am on 18 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
“”””"which managed to burden the Greek state with its first loans of the country even before it was created (how is this possible?) "
I like the way you are having a conversation with yourself, churning out one nonsensical statement after the other and then asking yourself how this is even possible. One thing is true - if it weren't for the British Empire, the "Greek" state, as exists today, would not have come into existence. It would still be part of some Turkish or Ottoman entity. Where it belongs, one might add.””””
Oh ChrisCamp, I see you forget that 3-4 months ago I had spectacularly beaten you in every single point of every side discussion we had opened and I see you are ready to come back with the same total absence of valid points which is really saddening. We know you hate Greeks and you love your Turks from which your partial ancestry comes off, no need to remind us so. But coming hear throwing blatant lies like these goes against the basics of history – even the one narrated by the British - is another thing.
If British did not exist the Ottoman Empire would had been a short lived coalition of random muslim converts that prevailed for a short time less than 300 years ending by mid 18th century through Russian intervention and local revolutions. I do not need to remind people here how many wars between Russians and Ottomans occurred, how many times Russians had crippled the pathetic Ottoman army with spectacular ease, how many times the revolutionaries humiliated the Ottoman forces, and how many times the British finally rushed to save the Ottomans at the very last moment so as to avoid having Russians down in the Mediterranean. Go get a book and inform yourself before saying whatever.
"...a much poorer Europe will emerge..."
“””This talk reminds me so much of European anti-Americans who never tire of predicting the imminent collapse of the American "Empire".”””
You ignore the basics of history. Empires when showing signs of collapse do not collapse just like that in 5-10 years. USA shows evident signs of collapse. That is all. It does not mean it will happen tomorrow. It will take several decades and that means that US has still some decades to inverse that trend. Time will tell.
217. At 4:34pm on 18 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
“”””Indeed a long ( ca 15-20 minute) silence on the air followed his words.
And then, a "Veltava" from Bedrih Smetana's symphonic poem "Ma Vlast" (My Homeland) started too ooze from somebody's small transistor radio.
That's how we found out that Russian inv...err... aficionados of patriotic Czech music were already in control of "Ma Vlast".”””
Good. Now tell us what they aired in Iraq, Serbia or Afganistan when they were violently invaded and their citizens massacred much more than the Hungarians or the Czechs.
249. At 8:21pm on 18 Jul 2010, generalissimo_franco wrote:
“””@229 MAII
"""Drones have many advantages and will probably be able to carry a larger weapons payload without the need to sustain the pilot."
Correct. The risk of sacrificing the pilots' life will be totally removed."""
Well, the old stuff /F-22 Raptor/ seems to be the last cry of the manned fighter/light bomber aviation /if we do not exclude of course the Su-30 and the last version of the French Rafale/. However, I have noticed that the shape of the wings/stabilizers are purely symmetric, which fact if added to the anti-radar coating means that the instrument interception of the aircraft has little chance to do any good, say at higher flights. I wonder who in this world had inspired the designers to shape the wings/stabilizers profile like that. For the rest, I agree; even the Mach4s were a challenge to the pilots...””””
Drones are much more preferable than airplanes and that explains the interest over the airplanes. However, they are more preferable for reconnaissance services and much less for bombing which is much more effectively done with missiles. As simple as that. For any country that really wants to assure its defense, missiles are the solution and that is why US reacts more to the purchase of 100 missiles than to the purchase of 1000 airplanes by a country that opposes it.
251. At 8:33pm on 18 Jul 2010, generalissimo_franco wrote:
“EUpris: I suggest that it would have been far worse. Going from memory and my reading of "Hitler's Vienna" by Brigitte Hamann, he hated the Czechs just as much as he hated the Jews and he hated all Slavs. So I suggest he would have massacred the Czechs and then the Poles.”
100% correct. Note that powermeerkat is a Pole. He hates Russia and anything linked with.””””.
Correct. With Hitler Poland would not exist even as a notion let alone as a nation. With Russia Poland successfully existed with the same landmass but only shifted to the west and with 3 times the coastline it previously had. Yet Polish have more complexes with their fellow Slavs Russians than the Germans. It is explained by their catholic fanatiscism and current pro-western politics that brainwash them that Katyin massacre (which was a political massacre done not by Russian people but by a communist regime) was more important than the genocide they suffered by German who did it gladly in a 100% non-political 100% racial-based way.
281. At 08:54am on 19 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
@213 powermeerkat
"[Igor Stravinsky was not performed in pro-Russia Balkan countries either for almost half a century. I wonder why?]
It's certainly not true. For the rest, I agree.
generalissimo
please, quote me specific examples of of Igor Stravinsky's works created in the 2nd half of the XX century [such as for example his D-major Mass]
performed in Soviet-occupied countries in the 50s or 60s.
Powermeerkat… yes you are almost 100% right: in pro-Russia Balkan countries they did not play Stravinsky while in pro-US Balkan countries they had the “freedom” to play everything and even invited the Bolshoi Ballets. With only one little detail: the first and last row of the theatre were agents taking photos of whoever clapped more than the typical.
By the way, as far as I remember there was no US gold medallist in the Olympics of 1980, isn’t it? Oaou! And you mind about a mediocre musician like Stravisnky, got well-known more due to politics than his music?
284. At 09:24am on 19 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
“””EUpris: So I suggest he [Hitler] would have massacred the Czechs and then the Poles.
And what do you think Stalin (Hitler's staunch ally till June 1941) did to the Polish nation between 1939 and 1953?”””
No, powermeerkat. No. Polish today are 40 million souls and the Czechs are several million. When we say that Hitler would massacre the Polish and the Czechs that means that there would be a mere 2-3 millions of them living as immigrants in USA and Australia. There is a blatant difference between the two.
“””Do names Kharkiv, Katyn, Kolyma, Kozelsk, Magadan, Ostashkov, Sakhalin, Starobelsk, Verkhoyansk, Vorkuta, etc., ring a bell? HELLO!]”””
YES HELLO!!!! Kharkiv, Katyn, Kolyma, Kozelsk, Magadan, Ostashkov, Sakhalin, Starobelsk, Verkhoyansk, Vorkuta = minor slaughters by communists most of them for political reasons. Few of them if any were done in the name of the Russian people.
It all comes funnily from you who considers the genocide of 4 million of Minor Asia (and the violent expulsion of other 3) as a positive thing and that ridicules Greeks, Armenians, Assyrochaldeans, Bulgarians, Serbians and every other respectable nation that speaks of the horrible crimes of your beloved (for their hatred of orthodox christians you hate so much) genocidal Ottomans.
Start getting things into the correct perspective.
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89. At 08:49am on 17 Jul 2010, betuli wrote:
“””Greeks are competent and tenacious people that will do whatever necessary to go on. Also the powerful international Greek lobby will never allow its motherland default.
It is urgent though Greeks renew in depth their Administration, starting with a serious fiscal policy. Black economy must be tackled, no more excuses.”””
Whatever the qualities and defaults of Greeks, you have to understand that it is not up to Greeks. It was not up to the choice of Greeks to arrive at this moment unless you base it all up to their choices of political parties – and you must be of reduced understanding to be based in that in a country where only in the last 60 years there were 2 presidents murdered by the British followed by the installation of 4-5 political families some of them US-citizens of no Greek ancestry and where all political parties are funded by the same center of interests and in which even the most well known local businessmen (those who are not created as US-agents like the K. family and the B. family and the A. etc....) cannot have any meaningful influence, let alone the average citizens.
99. At 12:53pm on 17 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
“””Insofar as Britain somehow opressing Greece, it seems to me....
"The fault, dear Nik, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are underlings.””””
Empty rhetorics. Yes, of course it lied in ourselves. But some 950 years back when the successors of Emperor Basil II dismantled the Eastern Roman Empire and left it easy pray to the barbaric catholic crusaders that conquered it and completely wrecked the place. What can we do about it Marcus? Get a timemachine and correct the wrong?
104. At 2:03pm on 17 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
“””Insofar as Britain (or Germany, or the IMF) somehow holding a mortgage on Greece, it seems to me....
"Default, dear Nik, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are reckless spendthrifts.””””
113. At 3:08pm on 17 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
“””"Default, dear Nik, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are reckless spendthrifts.”
Well, if might be, if your credit worthiness is found to be less than stellar, and you get lower, more down to earth rating, with all its consequences.”””
Greeks as citizens themselves have of the lowest borrowing levels not only in Europe but also internationally and that is thanks to their personal aversion to debt. It is the state that has overborrowed recently (in the last 35 years) commencing with the Papandreou son father government, then with Mitsotakis, Simitis, Karamanlis & finally now continues with Papandreou the grandson. Out of them the Papandreou family was installed in Greece by the British, the Karamanlis family rose in Greece along with the British & Americans, the Mitsotakis family was raised by the Americans and Simitis, well should I tell you where he comes from (just put Americans again). These people occupy both spectrums of politics, the rest is marginal edge parties also paid by the very same centers that pay the 2 main parties – there is simply no choice. Speaking about Greeks’ reckless spendthrifts is simply rhetorics making a hole in the water.
123. At 5:08pm on 17 Jul 2010, Poseidon57 wrote:
“””Yet more sensationalist writing which can only hinder the recovery of Greece and other such debt ridden countries…. Speaking to the few European tourists who have braved 'the dangers of a country on the brink of civil war' we hear of the incredible propaganda spread about Greece and it's recent struggles. We hear that there is rioting and fighting on the street on a daily basis, we hear that there is no food in the shops, we hear that costs haven risen so much your holiday will be hugely expensive. We have to wonder where this Greece is that they are reporting about. It certainly isn't here!”””
Poseidon, the whatever riots occur in Greece are technically provoked and completely controlled. I was in Athens in 2008 when the (US-organised riots that aimed to answer the recent gas-signatures and prepare for the ascension of Jeffrey Papandreou) occurred. And I was drinking coffee 2 squares next to the main street of the clashes which indeed destroyed the street. That is how dangerous it was. But to a foreigner’s eyes it all sounds dangerous.
Mind you I had seen people who rioted. Few of them were of the working youth - most of them students at university with visible signs of being quite well-off and I was told by others that there were recognisable people of opposing political parties (these students are actually paid whole salaries by political parties to do action for their parties' causes). All the "best" (i.e. the worst) of society there rioting for their right to defend the US interests. George's (Soros) army.
“””How about it Gavin????”””
Oh… Gavin at the end is a professional journalist. By definition, he is not immune to sensationalism.
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"If proofs will be found evidencing it, I shall be among those who will really suffer much. John Paul II was an exceptional man."
generalissimofranco,
forgive me if I skip a 'divinity' part. [Ockham's Razor]
JP II had no doubt who ordered his assassination and why.
[he wrote about it in one of his later books.]
Yes, Mehmet Ali Agca [his would-be assassin] was trained in Sigurnost's camp in Rodopy Mountains. [BTW. Karol Wojtyła forgave Agca personally]
But to be fair, that's how it worked in those days: KGB designing and manufacturing a ricine micropellet-shooting umbrella to assassinate Markov with; Bulgarians hiring a Turkish fascist so that KGB could have been thrice removed...And they were not the only ones by any means.
[e.g. Soviet GRU used Polish intelligence officers to steal American military technologies. -cf. famous/notorious Cpt. Marian Zacharski's exploits in California's Silicon Valley]
Sofia as such had no particular quarrel with the Polish-born raised and educated staunchly anti-Communist pope.
It was Moscow, and more specifically Yuri Andropov who considered him (rightly so) much more dangerous than Lech Wałęsa.
[W. being a poorly educated electrician with no international influence]
Bulgarians were merely Moscow's pawns, like many others in so called Soviet camp.[ which was a camp indeed]
BTW. it was Andropov, who as a Soviet ambassador to Hungary in the '50s demanded (and finally prevailed on Suslov) Russia's military intervention in that country in 1956.
[I remember Poles donating blood (and not only blood) for the H. victims]
Yep, those were the days of our early youths.
In many cases ruined.
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meerkat:I can fully understand that for historical reasons many Greeks and Balkan Slavs still hate Turks (more or less openly).””
Nick: You can understand nothing.
Meerkat: At this point our exchanges will end, at least on my part.
I can understand patriotism.
I will never understand/accept blind chauvinism and jingoism.
BTW. where has it got ya?
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Re292: Failed murders and failed attempts are always suspicious. The fact that Pope Voitila was attacked makes him no better or worse. As a Pope he has been deeply political and a mere puppet. There was nothing different or holier about him than past Popes when under his reign the Vatican spent millions for propaganda, social clashes and weapons dealing in East European countries. The Vatican's role in the Jugoslav wars (where it poured money directly into the Croatian armies) and in Ukraine's unrest remains legendary. In these terms the current Pope Ratzinger is much holier since he seeks no such confrontation, at least not so openly.
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Nik;
"99. At 12:53pm on 17 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
“””Insofar as Britain somehow opressing Greece, it seems to me....
"The fault, dear Nik, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are underlings.””””
Empty rhetorics."
Don't tell it to me Nik, tell it to Willy!
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The latest opinion poll I saw showed less than 50% of Greeks thought the austerity measures were necessary and the ruling party had just 28% support. This suggests the election in 2013 could be a date to watch.
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@276 Mathiasen
"General, I’d like to mention a few things from my experience.
The other day I read an article about dating on www. People are lying about their education and professional experience..."
Thanks for the comment friend. The phenomenon you are referring to constitutes, according to many notorious psychologists, physicians, and journalists etc., one of the most evident reasons for massive mental deceases. The virtual world that made our planet smaller than one can imagine, is going to change in a quite unexpected way the lives of many individuals who have PCs within the reach of hand. Consequently, some people who are losers in the real life ceased the opportunity to appear in that unreal virtual world as very successful, intelligent, well intended, or, say very, very competent to comment any interesting issue, thus satisfying their poor ambition to seem less lonely, abandoned or, say, not understood.
Your post is just another positive confirmation of my concerns, and I thank you for your understanding. The net could reserve even bigger unexpected surprises in the future… If the politicians proved to be more or less responsible when organising open (or not so open) discussions, we should be aware of the existence of other, hidden societies, that would take full advantage of the existing, unlimited possibilities of communication for other, not quite good intended goals.
Of course, I am grateful to the organisers of such big forums like BBC, FIGARO, etc., for the simple reason that I met there very interesting, modest, well educated, intelligent and responsive people which mere existence was unknown to me before, and who share many of my own visions. For instance, in this forum I like reading the chats of our fellow blogger “threnodio_II” whose visions on the commented issues are surprisingly similar to my own visions, etc.
Thanks again for your comment, and please do not call me "general" any more. It was MarcusAureliusII who nicknamed me like that three years ago. I still use that cover name just for the sake of my participation in this blog. Marcus is a very strange fellow with many strange, not standard ideas. (When I think of him, I recall the Beatles’ song about the madman on the hill, and at times, I ask myself who’s the madman, I or Marcus). I shall miss him if he ever leaves the blog…
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295. At 1:00pm on 19 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"""Nik;
"99. At 12:53pm on 17 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
“””Insofar as Britain somehow opressing Greece, it seems to me....
"The fault, dear Nik, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are underlings.””””
Empty rhetorics."
Don't tell it to me Nik, tell it to Willy!"""
Free Willy?
...and then you accuse me of "accusing" you having British humour!
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Nik,
"I had spectacularly beaten you in every single point of every side discussion"
leaving this kind of wishful thinking aside, what can you actually deliver to challenge my point?
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294. Nik:
Quite bombastic claims re the Vatican's activities in former Yugoslavia and Ukraine. Perhaps you can point to some proof? Please spare me all the geopolitical theory and propaganda talk...realiable information works best for me.
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296. At 1:06pm on 19 Jul 2010, Ian wrote:
"""The latest opinion poll I saw showed less than 50% of Greeks thought the austerity measures were necessary and the ruling party had just 28% support. This suggests the election in 2013 could be a date to watch."""
Hmmm Ian, there are different ways of translating that. We have to read the exact survey. To my Greek eyes, this tell us that "50% of Greeks think of the austerity measures as unavoidable" rather than "necessary". There is an enormous amount of pressure applied on Greece right now to pressure Greeks accept the unfair situation. Being not Greek you cannot understand the dilema but for a Greek it reads as follows:
- No matter if it is not your choice, money has been borrowed and wasted among the ruling parties oligarchies, and thus now the citizens collectively bear the burden of repaying it. There are two paths:
1) Bear the burden, and keep paying for several generations not only by providing a huge chunk of your work but also of your sovereignty and freedom.
2) Refuse to comply and be punished by provoked social chaos, violence, terrorism and finally assymetric guerilla military attacks (from a small part of the more than 1 million Albanians going in and out of Greece aided by muslim illegal immigrants) and finally conventional war by Turkey.
If they put you this dilema, there is no choice over it, you go directly to point 1.
Guess what. This is no theoretical discussion over here. The dilema for Greeks is exactly the above: they have to comply.
Hence such surveys are useless and tell us little of what Greeks really think of it.
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299. At 1:28pm on 19 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"""Nik,
"I had spectacularly beaten you in every single point of every side discussion"
leaving this kind of wishful thinking aside, what can you actually deliver to challenge my point?""""
Let me tell you straight: I rarely boast of the extense of historico-political knowledge which here has been rarely challenged by even the most informed contributors (who usually only find refuge to their stating their different political position - which of course is no point but a personal preference), but I can certainly keep pointing out those really blatant errors in others' sayings. When (Polish?) powermeerkat out of his hatred of Russians (and thus all orthodox) ridicules the genocides of 4 million people and the violent expulsion of the rest 3 millions of what was the 40% of Minor Asian population and wants us to be sensitive about the massacre of 20,000 military officers (i.e. not civilians) by communists (i.e. not any ethnic Russian leadership) for political reasons, I can instantly pinpoint his tinted glasses view of history and can only remind him that his imbalanced hatred for Russians compared to Germans (and what they did and what they really wanted to do at the end) is only ridiculing him.
That is what I did once again above with you. I think it was evident what I said.
Now do you really want to get on into opening a full side discussion here? Our original issue is different and it is the Greek crisis: You are not a Greek and you are not considered by the Greek crisis by anyway unless you claim "you pay the price" to which I will remind you "how much you won out of it so many decades". You have no clear views on the EU (correct me by presenting some if otherwise), thus I really do not understand what is your contribution in the discussion.
I do not see any basis of interest for you to come here and discuss whatever. Keep to the point. If you do not like Greeks and just want to open yet another libel expect to be dealt accordingly. You are free to join other forums where debate is more heated and goes down to my guns are bigger than yours. No problem with that, there you can say whatever. But here stick to points.
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300. At 1:30pm on 19 Jul 2010, Nanuk wrote:
"""294. Nik:
Quite bombastic claims re the Vatican's activities in former Yugoslavia and Ukraine. Perhaps you can point to some proof? Please spare me all the geopolitical theory and propaganda talk...realiable information works best for me."""
Well have you ever asked yourself where all those millions arrived in a non-existing state to buy its (by then western) weapons? Loans from Germany, Britain and US? Yes of course. But there are wide reports that are widely accepted even within Italy of Pope's money spent on weapons in Jugoslavia, no secret about it. Note that Pope Voitila was very much active in the 80s in Jugoslavia and has been actively contributed to the ethnic hatred that led to the ethnic cleansing of nearly 1 million Serbians from Croatia (that managed to get independent with some historic Serbian lands).
I should open my old computer with its stocks of past projects I had written for students of political sciences (under payment of course). There is full bibliography and references. I got some money and they got some excellent grades*. But I won't do it. Last time someone tried to challenge me to bring evidence was in the issue of British interventionism and the British murdering president Metaxas, introducing Papandreou family and paying the communists to create civil war all that during WWII, while in 1955 they murdered yet another Greek prime minister, Papagos). I did it with long lists of historic events, people, references and irrefutable proof). And guess what. I got no answer. Absolutely no answer of it, everyone abandoned the discussion. That is
what you will do too so just take my sayings as advice: if you are interested to know the Pope's implication in Jugoslavia or elsewhere go search it yourself. If you are not interested to know and by definition you just do not like to hear about it just call me a liar and keep on believing what you want. I do not mind it. You may as well keep asking Ratzinger to make Voitila saint - I am not even a christian and that is why I have no problem with it.
* the more interesting one had been actually a project on Ukraine where I had explained the voting of Ukrainians based on their different ethnic origins and religions and had added a point about the Orange revolution being able only to delay the evident path that Ukraine would take in future and that in a maximum of 2 periods of governance (i.e. 8 years) it would be over. The student kept it as it is and got an excellent grade, I was proved however wrong, the fairytale lasted only 4 years...
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#281 - powermeerkat
Despite being a naturlised US citizen, Stravinsky was invited to return to the Soviet Union as early as 1962. I am not going to waste a lot of energy researching which of his later works were actually performed, especially since your question was addressed to Il Duce, but if they were not given, it was nothing to do with official objections.
This is in marked contrast to Gubaidulina and Schnittke, who went into exile in Germany and were never reinstated by the Soviets only becoming performed after the end of communism. Spare a thought then for Ustvolskya, who remained in the USSR but was hardly known until after the changes despite being a composer of great originality.
It is worth remembering that the influence of the composers union declined significantly after the death of Stalin and the insistence on 'Soviet realism' receded rapidly leaving Shostakovitch, for example, the relative freedom to set verse by Yevtushenko, compose works which reflect his distaste for anti Semitism and complete his memorial to the victims of Babi Yar (13th Symphony). Years of imposing 'Soviet realism' had isolated Russian audiences from much of what was happening in contemporary music and it takes a while for public taste to embrace this and even longer for promoters to have the courage to program it.
In the meantime, there has been something of a counter reaction and Russian connections tell me that much of the 'acceptable' music of the period, some of which was quite good, is falling into serious neglect.
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democracythreat:
The situation of today can be seen in history. The accumulation of power and wealth always end in diaster for a nation or civilization. The lack of democracy within what are called democracies is a major problem. The people have abdicated their responsbilities and been lead down a path of conflict by the political parties. There is not much difference when governments have two parties or a single party in power. The lobbyist have taken over and greed and personal power make the rules. I do not advocate class warfare but point out that the conditions of such encounters are already in place. Power never gives up power willingly. The governments are run by the wealthy for the interest of the wealthy and that has always been but now when citizens are taxed to support the misdeeds of the wealthy that changes all the relationships between the people and the governments. The future is only bright if this is the beginning of a restructing of both government and finance. Until the people decide to require more from their governments in the form of honesty and quality the spiral downward will continue until there is no choice for the people but to look toward new forms of government. This does not always turn out well. For those nations that have changed in history the results are mixed. For every George Washington there is a Stalin or Mao.(Just a note: many believe it was the bankers that undermined Chiang Kai-shek and caused that downfall). The level of anger in the politics of most nations is an indication of the frustation of people that the political systems are corrupt and not responsive. Governments tend to ignore reality as they and the lobbyist and special interest shield themselves for anything that might require change.
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Nik;
"Free Willy?
...and then you accuse me of "accusing" you having British humour!"
Nik, I'm afraid you're just a little bit too late to free this Willy. He was freed of his mortal coils as they say 394 years ago.
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It always amazes me how many experts one can suddenly find on this topic; to put some words in Sir Winston's mouth: "never have some many said so little in so many words". Unfortunately, knowledge of facts is too often replaced by racial and national stereotype or historical clichees. In his article, Gavin Hewitt is surprised about the increase in consumer spending, despite harsh austerity measures, and cites the huge amount of debt relative to the size of the economy in favour of the arugement of an almost inevitable debt restructuring. At the same time, it is a generally known and accepted fact that the "hidden" or "black" economy plays a major role in Greece (as it does in other countries such as Italy); some economists put the hidden economy at the same size as the official one. This would explain why consumers can continue spending despite austerity measures, and puts the size of public debt into perspective (i.e. more at UK and US levels). Large parts of the population seem to have accepcted the need for change, even if painful, but unfortunately a small number of people carry on disrupting and destroying the economy and tourism in particular. What the Greek government (which has been lauded by the IMF for the initial progress achieved) needs to show to the electorate is what it is doing in order to stimulate economic growth and competitiveness in the long-term once the austerity measures have been implemented, and what it is doing to eradicate corruption and the incompetent and byzantine behaviour of public administration. One thing that puzzles me to no end is how Greece, which needs to find EUR 50bn this year to fund its budget deficit and roll over existing debt, can afford to spend EUR 5bn on new submarines and fregates: is the government really serious about eliminating corruption???
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303. Nik:
I thought as much. It's difficult to find reliable information when none exists. Stop the cheap attempts at cover-up (ie. if you don't look it up, then you don't care). I apologize if I offend you by choosing not to believe your claims of "irrefutable proof".
A scholar I know explained to me how during his research he had a far more difficult time gaining access to Russian and Serbian archives (actually impossible in the case of Serbia) than the Vatican's. And this scholar is an orthodox Greek.
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#307 - neutralobserver
There is actually a far more prosaic and, I think, plausible explanation for the rise in consumer spending. There has been a sharp decline in confidence in financial institutions and the banking sector which is disincentive to saving. Better in the view of some to spend it while you have it. Add to that the prospect of rising inflation and 'spend it while you can afford it' also becomes a consideration. As the clincher, throw in 'buy it while you still have a job' and the case is made.
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Re 301- 302 - 303 & #61
The reason You "..rarely boast of the extent of Historico-political knowledge..", is quite simply NOT because You are "..rarely challenged by even the most informed contributors..".
It is because almost all of us just lose the will-power or interest in 'challenging' what in almost every instance amounts to a load of jumbled half-truths/mini-insights/garbled-unknowns.
And that's when You occasionally make a sort of thread of sense!
Almost everyone I have seen engage with You in debate does not concede anything at all to Your outpouring of non-knowledge (more properly labelled hypothetical and/or wholly unsubstantiated): They are plainly UNimpressed, but also bewildered as to when, where, why, how any of us should be bothered with so much that in terms of factual-reality in truth amounts to so minutely little of any consequence.
E.g. When You write, "..Well, have you ever asked yourself where all those millions arrived in a non-existing state to buy its (by then western) weapons? Loans from from Germany, Britain and US? Yes of course.."
There is NO 'yes of course', ONLY You spouting opinionated-stuff as if it is documented beyond question at every level!
Now, twice before I promised myself not to get involved with You, but having read those 4 lamentably long, error-strewn, geo-politically credulous, ill-researched, leaps-into-the-dark apologies for what is supposed to be a version of how the World turns, I'm off again - - irrespective of anything You reply - - because as You once so rightly explained to me, "...hah! I almost feel sorry for you.." And, though I appreciate all your concern, I'd rather just not accept, and feel bad I let myself slip again.
Bye.
PS: I can recommend the sage of Switzerland as a choice of debater for You: He shares with You the terrible burden of knowledge that he knows all there is to know if only us plebs would read, listen & learn.
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"Guess what. This is no theoretical discussion over here. The dilema for Greeks is exactly the above: they have to comply."
I take it from this Nik you are predicting a socialist victory in 3 years time then. Good luck with those bond investments, I'll be keeping my money elsewhere.
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threwnodio_II
Please, remind me kindly when was the first time Nabokov's, Pasternak's, Akhmatova's or Bulghakov's seminal works were published in Russia?
And when were first exhibitions of Chagall's, Malevich's and Kandinski's paintings held?
And when was the first time compositions of Berg, Boulez, Cage, Ligeti, Riley, Schoenberg, Stockhausen and Webern were performed in Russia?
And what was the reason the kinds of Heifetz, Horowitz, Milstein, Rachmaninov, Richter, Roztropovitch, Stravinsky, Stern and many others have decided to leave Russia, and, in most cases, settle in the U$A?
I'm sure you must know such things.
Thank you kindly in advance,
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Meanwhile, in the really superfluous (but immensely expensive) EU-world:
'OPen EUrope forum' reports today an unnamed EU-Commission senior official as questioning the way the EU Costs are set to rise whilst every member Nation is facing cuts.
It is claimed the official said, "..how can the EU continue in this manner without regard to difficulties facing members... the EU should cut-back its institutions and at least 2... should be done away with altogether.."
The same report carried these accompanying statistics:
'In 2011 the Administrative costs for all EU Institutions will climb 4.4%, amounting to 8.3 Billion EUros out of the Bloc's Budget. In addition costs of EU Schools.. & higher education provision for EU Civil Servants children.. will grow 12.5% to 174 Million EUros in 2011."
In themselves, fairly paltry sums compared to the enormous crisis facing all EU27, however, surely the EU Official has a serious point: How is it the Brussels-EU entity is not only having its 'Budget allocation' protected, but it is actually to go up in Real Terms year-on-year for the next 2 whilst every member Nation is demanding their Citizens accept huge cuts to their relative standards of living/working conditions?
Why should the Greek, Irishman, Spaniard, Briton, Italian (& German by reason of paying their Taxes to bail-out the rest) etc. not demonstrate & frustrate their National Government's Cutting-Costs plans whilst the EU just accrues more and more Monies to itself as an institution that is plainly inconsiderate of & immune to the problems Citizens are facing!?
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308. At 2:26pm on 19 Jul 2010, Nanuk wrote:
"""303. Nik:
I thought as much. It's difficult to find reliable information when none exists. Stop the cheap attempts at cover-up (ie. if you don't look it up, then you don't care). I apologize if I offend you by choosing not to believe your claims of "irrefutable proof"."""
Down to the basics I approve your line of thinking, no evidence, no case. Let me repeat you I can bring on evidence if you like but I won't since last time I did it here there was absolutely no response from anyone, it just ended the discussion. I am not here to end discussions, this is my hobby and my favourite past-time like others have football.
From there on, if you were ever interested (and I do not ask you to be so) you may do the work yourself and find lots of interesting info on the grave political implication of the Vatican in Eastern Europe even in traditionally non-catholic countries like Ukraine.
Mind you, Pope is not alone in this. Current Konstantinople Patriarch also is a US puppet too and used as a division maker to provoke tensions with the Moscow Patriarch who in orthodox church hierarachy is his equivalent (there are no leaders, the leading group is the council of patriarchs), and who is the only current orthodox Patriarch with a real basis (all other are historic remnants risiding in ethically/religiously cleansed muslim countries).
"""A scholar I know explained to me how during his research he had a far more difficult time gaining access to Russian and Serbian archives (actually impossible in the case of Serbia) than the Vatican's. And this scholar is an orthodox Greek."""
Permit me to doubt about the definition of this "scholar orthodox Greek" on what is "gaining access to documenration". To my understanding the Vatican has had a long standing service of provision of "full documentation" = i.e. hide the originals and let out only what is beneficial. Serbians simply do not have that tradition in their own propaganda so they are mostly concentrated in covering up what is not beneficial to them thus if compared to what the Vatican does seems like a differential in the disclosure of information.
I am very curious to ask you the name of this "Greek" but do not take it as an incitation to tell me, honestly I do not demand it, it is not my point right now. I am just wondering how on earth anyone goes out saying that he could find more details in Vatican recent archives than in Serbian ones when it is widely known that the Vatican refuses to the occasional orthodox demands to open documents and archives dating back to 1204 (which they do have locked in their libraries) - and they are not willing even to let in public random byzantine documents they had stolen 806 years back, let alone open condamning archives refering to as recently as 20 and 15 years back.
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248.Chris Camp wrote:But the EU-haters destroy the credibility of all and every type of Euro-scepticism with their persistent hyperbole, ignorance and wishful thinking.
And the pro-EU crowd constantly demeans and belittles anyone who questions or opposes their grand scheme of 'total integration über alles'. The pro-EU crowd just cannot fathom why the peoples won't support their ideology of 'ever closer integration'. To the pro-EU crowd, 'more integration' is like a religion, not a means to an end but an end in and of itself. The pro-EU crowd thinks we should be perpetually bound to what a bunch of old guys decided over 50 years ago.
I mean, how dare we the peoples question the designs that the pro-EU crowd has in mind. Why won't we just accept a world without democracy where the pro-EU crowd can rule by diktat?
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#303
Last time someone tried to challenge me to bring evidence was in the issue of British interventionism and the British murdering president Metaxas, introducing Papandreou family and paying the communists to create civil war all that during WWII, while in 1955 they murdered yet another Greek prime minister, Papagos). I did it with long lists of historic events, people, references and irrefutable proof).
That was me, and as I said to you at the time, if what you put forward was "irrefutable proof", then God help anyone accused of a crime in Greece. You offered no links,references or irrefutable proof, just opinions filling in "unknowns" in your own mind in the same way that all conspiracy theorists do. You always do the same thing...you dont understand how something could have happened so you fill in the blanks to suit your political motives. If in doubt, blame the British, or the Turks, or the Americans, or the Albanians, or the Macedonians. ANYONE, but the Greeks or the Russians. THAT is why the debate ended, not because you won, but because the protagonists realised that arguing with you was akin to herding cats.
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297. At 1:22pm on 19 Jul 2010, generalissimo_franco wrote:
“Thanks again for your comment, and please do not call me "general" any more. It was MarcusAureliusII who nicknamed me like that three years ago. “
Well, that explains something. Few would select such a profile name. But then, of course, there is always the humorous or ironic variant, which also causes troubles to any grammar.
Cheers.
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307.neutralobserver wrote: One thing that puzzles me to no end is how Greece, which needs to find EUR 50bn this year to fund its budget deficit and roll over existing debt, can afford to spend EUR 5bn on new submarines and fregates: is the government really serious about eliminating corruption???
It doesn't puzzle me one bit. Germany and particularly France told Greece they'd arrange an 'EU-plan' for bailout on the condition that Greece buy warships from France and subs from Germany.
Is that corruption? I would say most certainly. I personally have little doubt Sarkozy and France only thought of one thing: French interest über alles. You see, France profits twice from this bailout, first French banks see their loans to Greece guaranteed by Germany, and second France makes money on selling warships to Greece.
Why is no one, even in the socalled EU 'parliament' asking for an investigation into what I believe is serious corruption and national egotism by France? Gavin, BBC, can't you look into this? This 'deal' must be exposed to the public. The public has a right to know and journalists a duty to report. You could even spin it pro-EU (you do that a lot anyway) saying that France is undermining the EU.
This warship deal is just one of the reasons I started to hold Merkel and Sarkozy in contempt (another reason was their bullying of national governments to cancel promised 'Lisbon' referenda). M+S (or rather: Germany + France) really think they ought to decide everything in the EU between the two of them.
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310. At 2:42pm on 19 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
Re 301- 302 - 303 & #61
""""The reason You "..rarely boast of the extent of Historico-political knowledge..", is quite simply NOT because You are "..rarely challenged by even the most informed contributors..".
It is because almost all of us just lose the will-power or interest in 'challenging' what in almost every instance amounts to a load of jumbled half-truths/mini-insights/garbled-unknowns.
And that's when You occasionally make a sort of thread of sense!
Almost everyone I have seen engage with You in debate does not concede anything at all to Your outpouring of non-knowledge (more properly labelled hypothetical and/or wholly unsubstantiated): They are plainly UNimpressed, but also bewildered as to when, where, why, how any of us should be bothered with so much that in terms of factual-reality in truth amounts to so minutely little of any consequence.""""
CBW. I do not need to try hard to answer the above whatever feeble efforts to present a point.
I only need to remind you that it was you that pressed me to bring you full evidence on the issue of "British interventionism in Greece".
I had answered you with full details and irrefutable proof, official documents, memories of people including not only the murder of Metaxas in 1940 and the dragging of Greece into WWII and the murder of Papagos in 1955 and the events in Cyprus (community clashes organised by the British occupation force) and Konstantinople (pongroms against Greeks) but also on a long series of murders by the British of other political people, on the internvention to pay the rise of communists and the creation of civil war as well as the collaboraiton of British and the protection they provided to Nazis in Greece.
... and you simply abstained from discussion.
I expected it. You know nothing of this issues - naturally highly embarassing for you. But you come now to tell me what exactly? That you again ask from me irrefutable proofs? Go answer the above first then come back for the rest. They are 100% related to today's question given that we have yet another Papandreou (Jeffrey) that won the elections (quite rigged of course - more than 150,000 votes all going to PASOK are constitutionally illegal) and leads the country through this crisis his father created his predecessors (Papandreou, Mitsotakis, Simitis & Karamanlis) nurtured and himself inflated.
"""PS: I can recommend the sage of Switzerland as a choice of debater for You: He shares with You the terrible burden of knowledge that he knows all there is to know if only us plebs would read, listen & learn."""
The sage of Switzerland seems to know quite a lot, on many issues related to politics and economics much more than me - my hobby is mostly geopolitics rather than pure economics. He does not tell us all what he knows and I would be interested in knowing more.
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"Can greeks escape defaulting?"
No, they can't. Anyone that has been to greece can notice that they've been too lazy and been sucking EU money for so long that they have forgotten what working hard means.
When things get tough, greeks are known to blame USA, Turkey, Germany, UK, Russia, Albania, Turkey, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Turkey for whatever reason. When slapped with the cold hard facts they go back to boasting about the ancient civilization their ancestors built three millenia ago.
Beat a greek in a game of backgammon and he'll start yelling about how monsterous Turks genocided 10 million poor christians, how USA has million CIA agents in Greece, how Brits plan on dividing their oh-so-beautiful country, how Germany stole their gold, how Macedonians should be called FYROM bla bla bla.
Just let them do whatever they want to do, their collapse of economy is not the end of the world, in fact, is of no significance at all.
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311. At 2:47pm on 19 Jul 2010, Ian wrote:
""""Guess what. This is no theoretical discussion over here. The dilema for Greeks is exactly the above: they have to comply.""""
"""I take it from this Nik you are predicting a socialist victory in 3 years time then. Good luck with those bond investments, I'll be keeping my money elsewhere."""
You perplex me. Jeffrey's PASOK government are socialists so they are already in power in case you did not know it.
Now, given they are currently going against the country's constitution and give illegally (and criminally) the citizenship to random illegal immigrants (many of whom do not even know the language orally, let alone read a voting list - no problem, they will be given it already crossed), it is quite certain that he will be voted again. His opposing parties will have to gain more than 60% majority in the Greek population to have any hope of winning over PASOK or PASOK voters have to be dispersed among other left-wing parties which is quite unprobable.
Note: Communism/ Left-wing in Greece grew with British money in WWII and from there on it has traditionally been the main arm of the US against Greece. If it is so difficult for you to understand you might as well ask a specialist in politics, he may explain it to you.
307. At 2:10pm on 19 Jul 2010, neutralobserver wrote:
"""It always amazes me how many experts one can suddenly find on this topic; to put some words in Sir Winston's mouth: "never have some many said so little in so many words"."""
Churhill was saying so cos himself was not speaking much of what he really did. However i can easily answer him with that lovely poem of Greek poet Kavafis about a "wise man, highly respected for is sober posture, for his manners, his cultivation and especially for his small laconic phrases that were saying wise things all that when in reality he was a half-educated villager that wanted to pass as an educated man imitating the manners of the educated high-classes who feared that if saying 1 phrase more he would blurt out a mispronounced word and would be revealed thus he chose only words he could pronounce".
Lovely poem. So true!
"""Unfortunately, knowledge of facts is too often replaced by racial and national stereotype or historical clichees."""
True.
"""In his article, Gavin Hewitt is surprised about the increase in consumer spending....the "hidden" or "black" economy plays a major role in Greece... This would explain why consumers can continue spending despite austerity measures..."""
Correct analysis.
"""Large parts of the population seem to have accepcted the need for change, even if painful, but unfortunately a small number of people carry on disrupting and destroying the economy and tourism in particular."""
Hmmm, not qiute the real picture. You have to take into account the division of the Greek society not into social classes but into priviledge classes and these are not always following the usual division of rich and poor in the sense that there is a 5% super-previledged class revolving around the clan-like political parties and around it a satellite 20% of the population that directly or indirectly benefits from the black market and in these you do not find just the usual political families, the bankers, the press-owners and construction companies but also your local bribed doctor, tax-controller, university professor, EU-funds grabbing farmer and port-worker syndicalist. This dirty 25% of the society is enough to make you think that "it is all the society in it up to the neck" and down ot the basics, that is what it is.
From there on the 75% of the rest of the population suffers and in them, next to the common employees you have even high profile industrialists whose businesses are hit.
It is natural that out of the 25% the vast majority of them are not even touched. The government has done nothing and has announced that it will do nothing about real corruption. Hence their earnings are secured, the richer of them have already moved their money in Switzerland or elsewhere, the middle class of them have already invested their black money in legal purchases, and even more, they can still continue doing the same thing since it is going to be the other 75% that will pay the price as usual. So why wouldn't they be supportive of the new measures? Also they quite enjoy the phrase saying "It is all of Greeks that were into corruption and now we have to pay", you have even politicians that are in government and past governments that say openly so: truth is that when one openly admits so, he should actually go himself inside prison for it, otherwise it is just an open admission of the fact that he will be doing so in future with complete impunity.
Now with all political spectrum, syndicalist, non-governmental and even "alternative" & extremist reaction directly controlled by the overuling 5% & their henchmen, the rest 75% are simply powerless to react. They know it. They know that the other option in the reaction might be in a series of lines being kicked out of EU, attacked by Albanian & muslim guerillas (formed out of the recent illegal immigrants) and finally attacked conventionally by Turkey and this is a concept that is circulated widely in Greece to terrorise people to accept even the most terrible of social compromises. If you are not ready to comprehend the blackmail Greek citizens face, you cannot understand their reactions.
"""What the Greek government (which has been lauded by the IMF for the initial progress achieved)"""
Here you start being far from the truth. Jeffrey Papandreou, primer minister of Greece, represents the US interests as expressed via the IMF. Jefrey is an American citizen (Greek is even his second language he leartn at 12 years old with a teacher - just to put you the picture...). Jeffrey dragged Greece in this crisis and accentuated it pushing Europeans to accept direct IMF implication. The double European-IMF implication has been characterised by neutral financial specialists as the worst scenario for Greeks.
... the above, without mentioning that the other alternative would be Greece being attacked militarily to be punished for its disobedience.
"""needs to show to the electorate is what it is doing in order to stimulate economic growth and competitiveness in the long-term once the austerity measures have been implemented,""""
Laughable. By fighting the cheap Russian gas and Russian investments and by exluding Chinese investement (just like his father had excluded in the past all Japanese investments) and by importing the overly expensive Saoudi liquified gas and continuing on Saoudi petrol is going to achieve so? Who is dreamer enough to believe so?
"""and what it is doing to eradicate corruption and the incompetent and byzantine behaviour of public administration.""""
Impossible! Pa pa ndre ou speaking! I have the poison I have the remedy? Are we fooling ourselfs? The Papandreou clan worked for indebting Greece and reaching the current crisis since the 1940s with a full record of over-borrowing in the 1980s, times during which the till then relatively healthy and quite efficient (for the standards of the country) public administration got completely corrupted having their funds looted by the clan and friends (international big fish ones, some local smaller fishes too). Now we expect Jeffrey Pa pa ndre ou to do something about it. Impossible. The man has for long shown what he is up to and that is finishing over the work of grandpa and dad, that is selling off the country.
""""One thing that puzzles me to no end is how Greece, which needs to find EUR 50bn this year to fund its budget deficit and roll over existing debt, can afford to spend EUR 5bn on new submarines and fregates: is the government really serious about eliminating corruption???""""
These are older contracts. The main corruption of these contracts comes maiunly from the German side: German corporations bribed whole ranks of Greek political (and some of the military) class so as to get the contract and receive the 80% of the value before acceptance of the finished product which is a world first, and which means that Germans actually bribed Greeks with the Greek state's money.
Why do you find it strange? Germans are very much into corruption, much more than Greeks in linear terms, only that their specialisation is in high-end corruption, you wouldn't expect them to be amateurs!
What is even more fantastic is that the Germans - so famous for their quality - managed to produce badly assembled submarines and 1 of them is so badly made that it has an inclination (i.e. it floats at angle): Germans refuse to do something about it and they refuse to return money in reparations as the contracts do. Greeks have to sue them but Angie of course reacts to that, Jeffrey could not care less, he is more busy to get Greece more indebted and to sell off the last things of value in the country transforming the citizens into modern slaveforce.
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#312 - powermeerkat
My response to you was specifically relating to composers and my trawling through reference works on your behalf will neither underline your case nor invalidate mine which related to questions of degree. Certainly I am not getting involved in matters relating to Nabokov, Pasternak, Akhmatova and Bulghakov as Russian literature is not my field and Chagall, Malevich, Kandinski are not directly relevant since they are not performance art.
Heifitz, as I am sure you know, was Lithuanian and was already in the States when the revolution occurred. His decision not to return was almost certainly due to the considerable commercial success he had already achieved before the outbreak of the revolution. Horowitz was Ukrainian and his decision to stay in the west from 1925 is, by his own account, similarly motivated. Milstein was also Ukrainian but also Jewish which would be a significant reason for staying in the west in its own right. Rachmaninov was from an aristocratic family and his father had been in the service of the Czar. Probably not a good idea to remain in revolutrionary Russia, especially with a lucrative career as a concert pianist in the west beckoned. He lived in Switzerland and only became an American citizen three months before his death. Rostropovitch is an interesting case. He gave a performance of the Dvorak 'Cello Concerto in London at a concert at which I was present on 21 August 1968 with the Soviet State Symphony Orchestra as news was breaking of the Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia. He finally left the Soviet Union only in 1974 and his citizenship was revoked in 1978. He spent the intervening years mostly in the States but returned to Russia in 1990. Stravinsky, we have already discussed, had moved to Switzerland as early as 1910 and was invited to return in 1962. Stern was also a Ukrainian Jew but, since he was born in 1920, it is doubtful he fled the revolution.
As to the composers you list, I don't know the answer and I am certainly not going to do your research for you although I can tell you that Berg was in Russia in 1927 for a successful production of Wozzeck.
It is not that your question does not interest me. What does not interest me is being your research assistant to promote a political position I do not share.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re323: Typical.
Let us try the light version:
320. At 4:02pm on 19 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
""""Can greeks escape defaulting?"
No, they can't. Anyone that has been to greece can notice that they've been too lazy and been sucking EU money for so long that they have forgotten what working hard means.""""
It strikes me that you are absent from every single other issue here and you appear only when there is an issue about the Greek crisis. You are not even an EU citizen so you have no reason to comment anywhere, let alone come here with libellous texts.
"""When slapped with the cold hard facts"""
I like the verbs you use: "slapped". Reveals your hatred against Greeks stemming out of your complexes of inferiority.
""" they go back to boasting about the ancient civilization their ancestors built three millenia ago."""
I saw no Greek speaking of it. You are the first to refer to that here and down ot the basics it has been always foreigners that in the absence of anytihng to say divert discussion there.
""""Just let them do whatever they want to do, their collapse of economy is not the end of the world, in fact, is of no significance at all.""""
How you much you consider it of no significance is evident by how frequently you are jumping in here on every single thread related on the Greek crisis as well as your notable absence from all the rest!!!
PS: Do you jump equally on the issues of the Mozambique or the Peru financial situation too?
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#316 Commonsense_Expressway
Re:#303
I offered links, references and proof to you (requested) -- and it didn´t help me in getting a reasonable answer from you.
I believe I was your last victim who fell for your feigning and crying wolf ?
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#321 Nik and #318 mvr:
When I mentioned the IMF's comments on the initial austerity programme, I don't refer to Papandreou's history or personal likes/dislikes, but the IMF Country Report No. 10/207 of July 2010 in which progress on various government is assessed.
With regard to my question about the arms purchases by the Greek government, I wonder if they may have been motivated by some kick-backs to those government/navy officials. Now, I know that the arms industry is a very dirty business (whether German, French, US, UK, or any other country, and I clearly condemn it), but it does take two to tango: for every bribe offered, there has to be someone happy to accept the money for corruption to take place. It is clear that Papandreou's father was one of the key responsible for the current state of the Greek economy, mainly due to his irresponsible economic policies (he was an economics professor, after all!), but his mistakes were compounded over the following decades not only be an continued economic policy incompetence (by both parties) as well as the problem of corruptino pervading all levels of society (not just politicians and industrials: also the simple man in the street handing an envelope to a hospital doctor or a tax inspector is guilty of corruption). However, after Papandreou Junior's loud comments on corruption after he took power, I would have expected him/his government to take a clear and proactive stand against corruption.
Concerning the argument that, somehow, Germany and France sell arms to Greece in order to protect their banks, I just don't get the logic of that. So, Germany/France provide EUR 5bn new loans to a supposedly bankrupt country so that the latter can buy economically totally unproductive assets and hence neither improve its financial nor economic situation, and thereby Germany/France prevent Greece from going bankrupt and protect their banks which have some large amounts of debt oustanding to Greece? Only someone with a scant disregard for logic and at the same time excellent mastery of conspiracy theory can defend this argument.
In order to make the austerity measures acceptable to even wider parts of the population, the Greek government would need to show some credible anti-corruption commitment and develop a long-term industrial policy for the country. The austerity problem solves an acute debt/financing problem, but does not lead the country to prosperity. Tourism is not enough to feed the 10 million, neither is shipping; otherwise, Greece lacks a meaningful industrial base and international competiteveness, and it is not for a lack of education of its population. Finding an appropriate long-term strategy is not an easy task for anyone, but unfortunately I have not seen even any hint of this problem being discussed by the government.
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Re #319
"..full details.. irrefutable proof.."!
If only!
Sessile.
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CommonSense
Re #316 & the mad-greek
Apologies: It's my fault entirely.
Every now & then I get drawn back to the Aegean sponge & confess some of it so irritates with its blinding absurdity I lose my bearings and drop anchor for awhile.
I always end up regretting it cos as is evident this time around, he's stuck in one place, a single cavity with numerous openings, and is still when all is said and done a 'sponge'.
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313. At 3:08pm on 19 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work
“The way the EU Costs are set to rise” was in the German 19:00 news presented as the opposite of the many budget cuts and as such as good news. It was also said that the research budget, which you don’t mention in your list, is to be raised with 12%.
ZDF also interviewed a leading representative of German Industry, who praised the investment.
You can find everything on www.
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Mathiasen
Re #329
Thanks. All duly noted: Now, is there any chance someone could explain how it is right or even half-way decent for the EU entity to be increasing its Budget Spending whilst 27 Member Nations' 500,000,000 Citizens are having to have their Annual Budget Spending reduced?
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neutralobserver
Re #326
"...only someone with a scant disregard for logic and at the same time excellent mastery of conspiracy theory can defend this argument..": Get used to it.
If it is logic, reasoning, observance of factual reality You are looking for You will be sadly disappointed.
Supposition, assumption, presumption, incredulous nonsense... an entire thesaurus of the unbalanced is all there is... It just takes awhile to grasp that in contrast to the huge out-put, the in-put is negligible.
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QOT
Re #325
I think You will have to accept almost all of us concluded You did indeed 'fall' from a tree a long time ago - - judging from Your ill-advised contributions - - it must still hurt Your feelings.
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327. At 5:59pm on 19 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
""""Re #319
"..full details.. irrefutable proof.."!
If only!
Sessile.""""
Oh yes! And you had totally abandoned the discussion. Do not try to hide now!
328. At 6:13pm on 19 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
""""CommonSense
Re #316 & the mad-greek
Apologies: It's my fault entirely.
Every now & then I get drawn back to the Aegean sponge & confess some of it so irritates with its blinding absurdity I lose my bearings and drop anchor for awhile."""""
Absurd the one absurd the other, CBW, you just can't throw the accusation of absurdity to just everyone that has a different opinion as yours.
Again I will remind your embarassing silence after my message that came as an answer to your repeated pressure to provide you proof of what I support. Don't make me send the link here to make it easier for people to see. I am not playing like that.
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Re #333
You are right.
I do feel very, very, very, very, very, very, very 'embarrassed': How could I ever have for a moment thought a word of sense could ever eminate from anything originating with You.
You are right.
(After this) I will hide away (from You).
It just is so much easier on my conscience.
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Avoiding default is one thing; avoiding asassination - quite another.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10684185
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Further to #333
Please do show the link: The more often You present Your 'irrefutable proof', the more often people realise CommonSense is absolutely spot-on.
I.e. at #316, ".. God help anyone accused of a crime in Greece... Your (Nik) proof is.. 'opinions' filling in 'unknowns' in your own mind in the same way that all conspiracy theorists do.. THAT is why the debate ended."
In case You haven't noticed: THAT is why all debates end with You!
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The only thing to be sure of is that if the governments and the banks find it in their interest to lie to the public to avoid social unrest, they will do so. They have lied about everything else concerning this matter. Saving themselves is always the number one priority. Remember, all the PIIGS were going to fall. The Greeks went first and everyone saw how that played out so the governments and banks decided they would not address the situations of the others. What was an impending crisis suddenly disappeared..or atleast was delayed. You are not dealing with honest people, do not expect honest behavior. Truth hardly ever escapes the palace.
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#315. At 3:14pm on 19 Jul 2010, mvr512,
Yup, could not agree more!
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#315 - mvr512
"The pro-EU crowd"
That phrase occurs no fewer that four times in a post of ten lines in length.
It smacks of "if you can't beat them, insult them to death".
Sorry Buzet and CBW, I respect your position and will debate it as required but I will not be bullied by ignorant thuggery.
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@292 Powermeerkat
“JP II had no doubt who ordered his assassination and why.”
I shall appreciate to have more clear evidences concerning our involvement in the attempt on the live of JPII (just mail me the exact links, not the comments from the media).
“Bulgarians were merely Moscow's pawns, like many others in so called Soviet camp.[ which was a camp indeed]”
Correct. So were the guys from Stasi, etc.
“Yep, those were the days of our early youths.
In many cases ruined.”
Correct.
Well, the West presided over by the US won the cold war, not only through the efforts of the institutions, but, first of all, because of the higher level of the organization of the west society, where there is no administrative/ideological ceiling that would obstruct the free initiative, the better entrepreneurship, in short, the best qualities any individual could offer for himself and for the society. The so called “real socialism in Eastern Europe” was an experiment that had been imported and implanted in countries which had already appreciated through their own experience the advantages of the west economies and lifestyle. As a result, all those talented and highly educated nations, inhabiting central and south Eastern Europe were virtually not motivated to meet the challenges of the XX s., were cut off from the remaining part of the continent, and consequently, were doomed to stagnation and scanty existence...
I have not the least intention to advocate the activities of the soviet secret agencies. What I am concern with is linked to my country, to my people. However, I would allow myself just to note, that even JPII was somehow involved in the financial support of the “Solidarnost” trade union, which was an evident breech of the fundamental principal any secular society is based on, namely, the principle of the separation of the church from the state. As to the numerous violations of the international law by the bullies of the KGB you are referring so often to, I would comment that during the cold war there were not good boys and bad boys. The bullies were on the “other bank” too, I mean among the CIA guys, etc. The war destroys the human being; it makes him something closer to the beast. The CIA guys won the cold war, but that fact does not necessarily mean that they are the good guys. They are just the champions.
@282 Powermeerkat
“Do present day Albania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary (drown in blood by Russia in 1956), Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Slovenia, etc., once dominated by the Ottomans, own their independence to Moscow, or to the fact that the Evil Empire (U$A) has soundly and irreversibly defeated the Homeland of the World Proletariat…”
Correct. The “second” liberation of all those countries is due to America. I will go even further: I do not think that, we European folks are able to organize our reliable collective defence without Uncle Sam. /The Brits will never accept a joint French/German High Command; the French and the Germans will compete to win the privilege to have full control of the coalition forces, etc., etc.; Besides, our own experience tells us that both NATO and the Warsaw pact (no matter their fundamental political/ideological differences) had proved to be successful war machines due to the fact that both organizations were presided over by a superpower that was able to impose its will to the rest of the allies. Note, I have made two military schools./
My personal concern is that the US could just withdraw, sooner or later, its participation from NATO, from the European theatre, leaving us to the mercy of the fate. Satisfied?
Next time, I will comment your posts concerning the ideological/administrative restrictions to the fine arts/literature/classic music/poetry in the Eastern bloc, as well as the eventual risks the US and the EU are to meet if they support the present Turkish leadership…
/I try to find my personnel way to chat with you, thus leaving apart any prejudices. I have read in French all the works of Mickiewicz; I am fond of Chopin masterpieces; I have several copies of Stanislaw Vispiyanski pictures my wife bought in Krakow. Here in Bulgaria, Russia and Poland are still considered as being two great Slavic nations./
Regards
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generalissimofranco wrote: "However, I would allow myself just to note, that even JPII was somehow involved in the financial support of the “Solidarnost” trade union, which was an evident breech of the fundamental principal any secular society is based on, namely, the principle of the separation of the church from the state."
To some extent - true. At Ronald Reagan's personal request JPII asked his cadres to help in shipping to marshall-law Poland printing presses and paper/ink, etc., bought/donated by American AFL-CIO, a LABOR union.
It is true that the Polish Catholic Church distributed food and other necessities (mostly donated by those not in jail yet) to families of Solidarity members incarcerated under the marshal law.
However the latter was a purely humanitarian effort, and it was as much a violation of a separation of church&state principle, as International Red Cross violating its statute by distributing help (including medical treatement) to ununiformed guerilla fighters (Talibs) in Afghanistan.
Of course, one could argue that KGB attempt to assassinate the JPII also constituted a violation of separation of church and state principle. ;)
And re Turks/Ottomans...
They fought very valiantly at Vienna. It was not exactly their fault they were met by even better warriers led by a better tactician.
[do you know that Kara Mustafa killed himself after the Battle of Vienna at sultan's request, to save his family from 'kisim'?]
P.S. Your posts made me listen again to Bulgarian folklor-inspired Milcho Leviev's (great) jazz recordings made after he moved to U.S.
Don Ellis renamed one of those tunes "Bulgarian Bulge". ;)
It was, I was told by Milcho many years ago, the only time, DE big band's musicians had to actually count (at least initially). :)
regards,
P.P.S. If you like really good poetry Zbigniew Herbert is your man.
His "Report from a Besieged City" is actually about marshall-law Warsaw.
[available in English, French, German and even...Polish. :)]
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gf:"I will go even further: I do not think that, we European folks are able to organize our reliable collective defence without Uncle Sam. /The Brits will never accept a joint French/German High Command; the French and the Germans will compete to win the privilege to have full control of the coalition forces, etc."
You have a point my friend. You have a point.
However, due to persistent America-bashing and some (mostly French) politicians affected by mania grandiosa promoting a vision of United States of Europe as a COUNTERbalance to evil USA there's a growing feeling among many Americans that we should simply take our toys and boys out from Europe and go home. Especially since money is tight now.
[We really need (still) only bases in Japan and Turkey.
(unless Bulgaria, and only for AMD...;)
Not even in S. Korea. It's S. Korea who seems to want them. Badly.]
There is and always has been a strong isolationisting streak in American psyche, with, and you may find it ironic, traditional Republicans affected by it to a much larger extent than Democrats.
Cf. difficulties Wilson, FDR, LBJ (Democrats all) had in cajoling Americans into participation in both World Wars and Vietnam adventure.
[Although in case of WWII Hirohito sure "helped".]
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Re340: Generalissimo, I will set aside the fact that communism was imported and imposed with foreigners (not even a single communist in Russia out of the 20 leading figures of the party - foremost Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Plehanof etc. - was any Russian). The two blocks of power were formulated for the "better world management" and for having the best excuse to invade the sovereigny of other countries. USA/USSR was simply using the justificatoin of USSR/USA to occupy land on pretty much most countries in the world apart India and a pathetically small number of pathetically small countries. All the rest of the countries were NOT sovereign - in that the calls for European countries' sovereignty come really as a joke: I have never heard any anti-EU and pro-sovereignty calling for the ousting of NATOic bases.
Today this situation has changed - and I see that 20 years on, some, like our Polish friends cannot grasp it. They have old grievances with Russia which I personally understand, yet I will never accept their disrespect to other orthodox cultures like the Greeks or Armenians and their equation of random political massacres of a mere 22,000 uniformed military men by communists (i.e. not ethnic Russians) to the cold-blooded organised genocide of 4,000,000 non-combattant, totally unarmed civilians, a genocide to which ALL the Turkish society participated (late alone the later crimes like the 1955 pongroms and the invasion and total ethnic cleansing of north Cyprus...) just because Turks are enemies of Russians and thus anything is ok for them. Polish have a lot to sort out to be considered a rational nation and until then I cannot take their opinion seriously.
Yet Americans like very much having little nations like the Polish there fighting out the Russians. Why? Do Russians push the Mexicans having any problem with Americans? No. Russians are not occupied with such, they currently mind their own business. Though technologically they are on the cutting edge, in societal terms they have still a way to go and thus naturally they are more occupied with the inside of the country and from there on with their surrounding area.
A great nation like Russia has let peacefully out large chunks of its Empire to go - even creating artificially inflated states like Bielorussia (never existed as a country, never existed as a nation - practically its western pronvincial Russians and a bit of forgotten Polish in the edges), like Ukraine (the eastern half of it is Russian lands, 40% of the population identifies itself as Russian), Kazakstan (nearly half of Kazakstan were Russian lands where Kazaks had never set any foot) and so on. Therefore having anyone claim that Russia will act aggressively against its neighbours is absurd. Especially in the case of eastern countries, Russia simply borders only with Bielorussia and Ukraine so anything that the Polish or Chechs or Romanians will say is simply empty rhetorics of politicians paid by my friend George (Soros).
In today's world, the one that is the factor of instability and the main aggressor is the United States of America. Be ware, I am not doing any moral teaching here and I divide the world not in evil and good. I am just stating facts as cold as they are. For anyone that wants to know why, take Emmanuel Todd's (French demograph & politologue, an exceptional thinker) "After the Empire" to read in full details about how and why. All facts and numbers are there for you to see. Note, the book had been written in 2000 and it was added a part or two in 2001: i.e. it had predicted quite a lot of things for the 00s. For the ones who know it is not even prediction, it is more or less mathematical equations of the simplicity of 1+x=2 => x=2-1 => x=1
It is more than understandable that definition the US strives to control the world, practically to run it. By definition it is understandable that the main obstacle is not India, not China but Russia which in practice maintains a slight military advantage due to its more evolved strategic & nuclear missiles (see, aircraft carriers are to invade 3rd world countries, now you know why Russia has not built a single proper aircraft carrier - this show blatantly the strategic objectives of each country...). By denifition US tries to isolate Russia and tries to control every little country around Russia and to turn it against the Russian interests. Georgia is a nice example: US turned it into a fascist little state with inflated army which did the unthinkable - it tried to ethnically cleanse the 1/3 of the population, i.e. the Abkhazians and Ossetians, people that Georgians did not even give the Georgian nationality and tried militarily to push out thus invting themselves their own fate with Russians enterring in to protect the lifes of their own citizens (as Abkhazians and Ossetians had maintained USSR, then turned to Russian citizenship in the refusal of Georgians to give a Goergian one). Still Russians operated in a minimal time (due to proximity) and caused only the minimal human loss cos in these circumstances it could had been a bloodbath. Yet Americans, who created bloodbaths in Iraq, Afganistan and ex-Jugoslavia still have the nerve to accuse Russia of beligerence which is simply comical.
And US has indeed become comical. Like its creator and predecessor Britain, it has been always an Empire of lies but since the great lie of of 2001, things have indeed become comical to the point of reminding us the story of the king and the best tailor of the kingdom who made him the invisible garments and then everyone in the kingdom had to pretend the king wore beautiful garments while he was naked. And there are people here that are trying in vain to convince the world that the king is dressed and not naked but problem is that they have not even convinced themselves.
Perhaps there are many people who are so afraid that they cannot even imagine a world without an aggressive, oppressive power like the US. Maybe because they feel like US politics improve their position in the world. Maybe because they feel assured with the master-slave relationship US imposes on them. If we talked for loney little countries menaced by large ones, that would be ok, but having the hugest block of developed countries with by far the largest developed population in the world and the hugest market, that is EU fearing to be alone and advertising their inability to defend themselves despite their nuclear and spatial capabilities that is simply pathetic. Plain pathetic. Especially when the other huge politico-military block, Russia is positively positioned in relation to them wishing to built a win-win situation.
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#339. At 00:42am on 20 Jul 2010, threnodio_II,
I consider the thuggery and bullying to be mostly from the proponents of the current direction the EU is taking who have an ideology that there are a number of deities, the god of 'ever closer union', the god of 'a single currency' and the god of 'a federal superstate'. Anybody not believing in these deities is of course an infidel and therefore a non-person, sub developed and ignorant.
Personally, as you know, I like the concept of an EU but only as a common market with free movement of goods and labour and the post by mvr512 was simply a reaction in kind to the abuse we infidels regularly receive from the true believers of the current EU, and who cannot envisage any form of alternative path or any form of meaningful debate since that might deflect the EU from their chosen path.
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"anyone claim that Russia will act aggressively against its neighbours is absurd."
Well -Georgians might. ;)
["Georgia on my mind". An ancient Orthodox country, isn't it?]
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"political massacres of a mere 22,000 uniformed military men by communists (i.e. not ethnic Russians)"
Oh, really? :-)))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin
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From the BBC:
"A Greek investigative journalist has been shot dead outside his home in Athens in an attack linked by police to leftist militants."
Pull the other one, it's got bells on...
A bunch of "Leftist Militants" who target independent journalists in a very professional manner? Really? Going to try and convince us they have taken gullible out of the dictionary too?
Any hopes that Greece may deal with its corruption problem just got slimmer.
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"Russia simply borders only with Bielorussia and Ukraine"
When was the last time Nik the Greek look at the map of Europe or called anybody in Kaliningrad Oblast? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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339.threnodio_II wrote: @mvr512
"The pro-EU crowd"
That phrase occurs no fewer that four times in a post of ten lines in length.
It smacks of "if you can't beat them, insult them to death".
More like 'what goes around, comes around'. I can refer to post 344 (Buzet23) for an explanation.
To our friends here who are enthusiastic about the current EU: I (and many with me, I suppose) am not at all against 'some form' of 'union', even though I would prefer an 'EEC' like cooperative thingy. What I am against, is the current EU that I consider to be completely undemocratic (with a facade of 'democracy') and unreformable (in the direction I would like to see).
Of course I am not against economic cooperation, friendship and all that, but I firmly believe we don't actually need the EU (as it is now) for that. As far as I can see, the EU as it is now is superfluous.
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326. At 5:55pm on 19 Jul 2010, neutralobserver wrote:
"""#321 Nik and #318 mvr:
When I mentioned the IMF's comments on the initial austerity programme, I don't refer to Papandreou's history or personal likes/dislikes, but the IMF Country Report No. 10/207 of July 2010 in which progress on various government is assessed."""
Wrong. What you do right now if expressed in mathematics would be the equivalent of saying:
x+root(4)=10
=> x=10-root(4)
=> x=10-2
=> x=8
which is not correct since it can be -2 too and thus the answer being:
=> x=12
In the case of this mathematical equation, we are unable to state whether root(4) has to be 2 or -2 unless we take the absolute value |root(4)| but in the case of Jeffrey Papandreou we have the chance to now expertly his roots.
He is son and grandson of a political family that rose in the WWII right after the murder of president Metaxas (in hospital treated for a common amygdalis problem) by a British military doctor sneaked inside the hospital by the non-Greek pseudo-royal family (I have given you documents in the past on that so no talk on that). Grandpa Papandreou returned along with the British invaders to occupy Greece and worked to cause the civil war along with British-paid communists, thus enabling British to rule the country till the 1950s when US took over "responsibility", and from there on the Papandreou family either in government or in opposition directed Greek politics where they should not be. According to low-level (little suspicious) CIA agents, the doings of Andreas Papandreou led the political antiparathesis to incite the move of the colonels as wished by Americans (I have given you here documents in the past so no talk on that). Then returning in 1974 as a socialist champion (himself an American citizen of partial Greek roots and absolutely no Greek consciousness, married also to an American with his children learning Greek at a later age only to accompany him in his political functions). Papa Papandreou gets to government after having promised to get Greece out of NATO and out of the EU (at a time Greece, following the NATO & Eurpoean treason in Cyprus, were against all) and when getting on top he did his best not only to retain the US bases but also to return Greece on the military side of NATO with a reduced role (the worst scenario) as well as went on to completely diorganise the public sector by inflating it, by providing impunity to illegal acts, by cultivating corruption, by wasting the country's finances and selling off the country's ressources, by prohibiting Greeks to set businesses, by prohibiting foreigners to invest in the country in real projects and by pushing violently out the whatever foreign investments where there and from there on establishing a socialist dictatorship in the country in the name of US. After a small break with Simitis during which the same work of selling off the country and its whatever soverignty left and during which grandson, son Jeffrey Papandrou held the sensitive ministry of external affairs - by far the worst ever minister since the creation of the country (said even by his party members), Jeffrey takes up in 2004 the party despite total derision and disbelief: the man is visibly a clown. He is as treacherous as his papa and grandpa, only that the former two where smart cunning men and could trick the Greeks, he is a total clown who managed to lose the 2007 elections that US had so hard (with horrible sabotage fires, and crimes and set scenes to create the right climate) to make him win and thus they had finally to push the ND ruling party (not any much less corrupted, led by the Karamanlis clan, anciently also placed by the British in the 1950s following the assasination of Papagos by the British in 1955 right on the Cyprus events and the Konstantinople pongrom against the Greeks) to paralyse so not being able to govern anymore so that Greeks (and an unknown but knowningly increasing number of illegal immigrants given passports to vote / note that PASOK system governs in services even if the party is in opposition) finally voted PASOK in hope of establishing some order (in slave-like logic that if one is going ot slaughter everyone, let him be the ruler to find some peace...).
And there you have the clown, little Jeffrey, a pathetic little man that cannot master the Greek language despite all those private lessons since his 12 years (when he started the lessons), a US citizen, a blind fanatical supporter of US world government (he self-confesses it openly),
to rule Greece. In the 3rd day (3 days!!!!), he declared void all what he said prior to elections and says, I have no money I want to go to the IMF. The European Union can find him interim solutions, he insists implicate the IMF and makes the case louder than what the EU wanted in the first place (and thus the negative reaction of all EU leaders). He refuses to talk to Russians and Chinese that offer the best financial solutions and on the top some real projects that bring real development and he tries to hide the reality from the Greek (and in general European people). He lies so much that every time he opens his mouth people laugh with sorrow. Who can forget him saying "there is no oil in the Aegean" and even his ministers looking the other way while was rubbing nervously his nose from his visible embarassment (he is not even good at being such a great liar). He makes a pitiful spectacle, so much that it makes the previous prime minister the boy-like Karamanlis look serious (while in reality incapable to govern) and even the equally foreigner (he did not know how to speak well Greek...) Simitis (I will avoid mentioning his real name and how he found his position in the party, again, just like Jeffrey against the general concensus of even his own party where he was opposed). Parties are dictatorships and within the parties there are ruling dictatorships that hijack power on the basis of right by birth - that is how the country is governed and that is how Jeffrey governs the country, a country he considers a random US colony in the world.
If you are not ready to see the reality in the eyes, pick up another issue. Whatever else you will say is just plain rhetorics. Failing to spot the root problem makes you equating to wrong conclusions.
"""With regard to my question about the arms purchases by the Greek government, I wonder if they may have been motivated by some kick-backs to those government/navy officials."""
Yes. But this is common practice to the 100% of military deals all over the world. Accept it as a fact. In countries like Greece, given the relative smaller size, the relative bigger commands of high tech material and the bigger appetite of the implicated political circles (often foreign like in the case of Papandreou and Simitis or foreign-imposed like in the case of Karamanlis) the problem is largely accentuated.
"""It is clear that Papandreou's father was one of the key responsible for the current state of the Greek economy, mainly due to his irresponsible economic policies (he was an economics professor, after all!), but his mistakes were compounded over the following decades not only be an continued economic policy incompetence (by both parties) as well as the problem of corruptino pervading all levels of society (not just politicians and industrials: also the simple man in the street handing an envelope to a hospital doctor or a tax inspector is guilty of corruption)."""
You just do not get it. Papandreou did not just cultivate corruption: he established a whole system and that is how the state functions. Accusing the victimised civilian that gives the envelop to the doctor to have a hope about his ill father or the stressed businessman to get the permit to construct an extension of his little industrial unit is like having a British, French or German citizen accusing his bank for illegal charges (and among banks' charges there are illegal ones and some basically unconstitutional, yet I heard no bank responsible going to prison for that). Why? It is a whole system established.
"""However, after Papandreou Junior's loud comments on corruption after he took power, I would have expected him/his government to take a clear and proactive stand against corruption."""
You could more easily expect the wolf to guard your sheeps. You have to understand: Papandreou = US citizen = IMF. These three go together.
"""Concerning the argument that, somehow, Germany and France sell arms to Greece in order to protect their banks, I just don't get the logic of that."""
Good thing they do for them. Since US-based Papandreou closed almost all of the little internal military industry, we have to buy arms from somebody. Better from Europeans than Americans. Problem however is that Europeans are only there to exploit but not defend which is ridiculous. You pinpoint this below:
"""So, Germany/France provide EUR 5bn new loans to a supposedly bankrupt country so that the latter can buy economically totally unproductive assets and hence neither improve its financial nor economic situation, and thereby Germany/France prevent Greece from going bankrupt and protect their banks which have some large amounts of debt oustanding to Greece?"""
Now you make a very smart observation. Your logic is 100% correct. You pinpoint EU's failure. In fact, as you have very well understood, EU uses Greece as a boxing sack and itself nurtured the weak link with which now it is being attacked by the US. It is totally incapable of doing anything. The question is what Greece (in an imaginary scenario, ruled without the Jeffreys) should do?
"""Only someone with a scant disregard for logic and at the same time excellent mastery of conspiracy theory can defend this argument."""
I have said this again and again: I use more easily a term like militaryfinancial geopolitics but if you like the word conspiracy there is no problem. Politics move only via conspiracy. If I tell the people what I really plan to do, what is the point?
"""In order to make the austerity measures acceptable to even wider parts of the population, the Greek government would need to show some credible anti-corruption commitment and develop a long-term industrial policy for the country."""
With anti-corruption commitment Jeffrey would simply cut his own legs. Greece without corruption can become a little compact country very difficult to control and then not even pushing Turkey against it would be enough (Turkey still has not the military capacity to attack Greece without a Cyprus-like pre-designed set-piece conspiracy), and thus the next choice for the US would be to wage war directly against it but see... it would do no good for the US "soft-power" image to attack the "cradle of democracy" unless of course they built first hand a horrible propaganda of lies about how Greeks are not Greeks and that they are a bsrd little orthodox Russian-loving nation, you know... the usual the British were saying till 1820s... and again in 1910s... and again in 1950s... and again in 1970s... and so on.
"""The austerity problem solves an acute debt/financing problem, but does not lead the country to prosperity."""
No. It aims to solve the deficit problem with tricks and gimmicks. The country will be more indebted!
"""Tourism is not enough to feed the 10 million, neither is shipping;"""
Tourism is a sensitive industry and we see this summer how easily it can be hit. But shipping? Are you serious?
Let me pass you the numbers. With some several 1000s ships of "Greek insterest", this circle of interests if seen in one group was the largest comemrcial fleet in the world back until its heyday 1973. Did you notice the date? 1973. You might say, it was the oil crisis and such, but actually Greek shipping industry was quite well equiped for the after-crisis - it was mostly other factors that reduced it. However, this "circle of interests" is still one of the largest blocks of "shipping interests" in international business. Alone even the 1/5th of it suffices to change the fates of the country forever. But here is the catch. Almost none of it passes via Greece, all business is operated on the international. The question is to catch some of that commerce (knowing that a 35% would be reasonable enough to catch and it alone would make a huge change). But then the discussion moves to geopolitics - it has little to do with financial or industrial affairs, forget it.
""""otherwise, Greece lacks a meaningful industrial base and international competiteveness, and it is not for a lack of education of its population.""""
Open googlemaps and see in the map what is around Greece? You have your answer.
"""Finding an appropriate long-term strategy is not an easy task for anyone, but unfortunately I have not seen even any hint of this problem being discussed by the government."""
There are solutions:
Solution 1: The country is dismantled and the nation genocided (this can happen in various ways, not necessarily military ones...) - eg. make the country totally uninhabitable and replace the population with a foreign slave force etc.
Solution 2: EU continues to keep Greece alive as an consumer of EU products with borrowed EU money repayed slowly by the Greeks working in not particularly productive service jobs, remaining as a tourist paradise for Europeans.
Solution 3: EU kicks out NATO and starts getting occupied professionally with geopolitics = Greece becoming its flagship with much of the EU-oriented Suez commerce flowing via Pireus & Thessalonica. Rotterdam and Hambourg however might feel the pinch.
Solution 4: Greece kicks out both NATO and EU and invites in Russian bases in the Mediterranean. Rebuilts its naval industries with cheap Ukrainian steel and cheap Russian gas, builts military industries to fabricate Russian missiles and arms to the teeth islands and mainland making an attack against it feasible only in a 3rd World War scenario. From there on it takes the role as the Russian watchdog of Eastern Mediterranean and Europeans will have to pay the fee which means also lost money for the pUmp, US (where U is I).
There are no other solutions. Chose your preferred one.
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@343 Nik
"...Plain pathetic. Especially when the other huge politico-military block, Russia is positively positioned in relation to them wishing to built a win-win situation..."
I see and understand better than anyone here present your critical comment. Believe me Nikolay, the EU is not yet enough united to defend itself. For the time being, Russia plays the energy card "divide and rule" and will enjoy an eventual NATO dissolution. Well, can you imagine what will happen next? Are the Bulgarians, the Serbs, the Greeks and the Montenegrins enough wise to organize their common entity on a confederation level in order to secure the peace on the Balkans?
Besides, if we accept your argument about the willingness of the US to rule this continent through the institutions of NATO, we must agree that the present status quo can prevent the Turks from any military adventure against their neighbours. Otherwise, we, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians and Montenegrins should go to Kremlin along with our old banners, icons and saint books, thus assuring Messrs. Putin/Medvedev of our commitment to the orthodox values and traditions… That will be really a pathetic situation.
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Re Kaliningrad Oblast...[almost all military + some mafia]
"Mikhail Ivanovich Kalinin was born November 19 [O.S. November 7] 1875 to a poor peasant family of ethnic Russian origin in the village of Verkhnyaya Troitsa (Верхняя Троица), Tverskaya Gubernia, Russia. etc.
Obviously not an "ethnic Russian."
Just like he was not a Bolshevik thug indeed.
Which makes on wonder: If they managed to change the name of Leningrad back to St. Petersburg, how come they still call Koenigsberg (Bohemian: Kralevec, if you will) by the name of a notorious commie aparatchick?
[curious meerkats want to know)
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347. At 10:41am on 20 Jul 2010, Freeman wrote:
"""From the BBC:
"A Greek investigative journalist has been shot dead outside his home in Athens in an attack linked by police to leftist militants.""""
Nothing new under the sun. It has happened in the past. It was not the "Revolutionary Sect" but the "November 17".
"""Pull the other one, it's got bells on..."""
Bells and horns and vuvuzelas...
"""A bunch of "Leftist Militants" who target independent journalists in a very professional manner? Really? Going to try and convince us they have taken gullible out of the dictionary too? Any hopes that Greece may deal with its corruption problem just got slimmer."""
Actually no, there were not anymore hopes before this assasination. You understand that the extreme-left organisation such as "Revolutionary Sect", the "Revolutionary Struggle" or the infamous "November 17" do not exist. What exists are random US agents that along with the aid of particular Greek EYP (double) agents (EYP: Ethniki Ypiresia Pliroforion = National Service of Inforamation), recruit random people from the anarchic circles under various schemes and do their acts. Note that the recruited usually put bombs but when it is to kill someone with a bullet or other means then it is the agents themselves that do so (they would not leave that to amateurs!). These fake organisations (just names used to sign the acts of agents) have been used not only to kill irritating journalists and politicians but also to create public impressions, to create a negative climate and even make clearences and that goes not only in the assasination of "competitor" Saunders (a British military diplomat trying to sell British arms in Greece, rival to US ones - guess what was chosen...), but also internal clearences like the assasination of the CIA station man in Greece (how on earth a random anarchist knows where he finds the CIA station man????)... you know sometimes it is good for the business to "fire" some employees, well that is CIA's retirement package.
Note that even low-ranking Greek anti-terrorist policemen know most of these people by heart but as they say "you know, whenever we are moving to make an arrest, there come different orders from "above"). And whevever US collaboration was included, things were getting even more blurred. Unsurprisingly.
When you hear such murders you have to read either US local henchmen or sometimes (and not that rarely) even US themselves directly and inspite of local henchmen. Don't say OMG, what terrible things is he saying! Don' say that this is just the typical bashing: that is the way it works. Do you think its all about KGB and Litvinenko and Politovskaya?
I ignore this journalist but probably he got into things he was not supposed to know and thus he "ate his head". Note that in this particular case there is seemingly no US involvement but local henchmen direct involvement. The murder is directly related to the environment of Jeffrey just like the "November 17" was related to the environment of his father Normally they would had killed him with a road accident or poisoning but they sent someone to shoot and then sign as "Revolutionary Sect" since it is very clear that the "right message" will pass to the minds of other knowledgeable journalists and low class politicians.
Get it?
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@343 Nik
Nik, I guess the link I attach here will help us getting our visions even closer….
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Just try.
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@352 powermeerkat
I invite you to join me on another blog, named: В Смоленске упал самолет
After the registration try to link to: межнациональная беседка-болталка...
The Poles are there along with othe slavic people. You are welcome. Just try...
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352. At 11:20am on 20 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
All what you say are post-1917 things and I cannot take them as a conscious national effort of Russians to eradicate Polish but as communist political aggression. If anything have you ever measured how many more million Russians did communists kill prior to killing some 10s of 1000s of Polish?
Either show to me "Russian Tcharist aggression against Poles" or start putting things in context. And don't you ever compare the Katyn massacre of uniformed Polish in military service as being above the 3 horrific genocides of millions of civilian Greeks, Armenians and Assyrochaldeans in Minor Asia.
End of story.
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351. At 11:20am on 20 Jul 2010, generalissimo_franco wrote:
"""I see and understand better than anyone here present your critical comment. Believe me Nikolay, the EU is not yet enough united to defend itself."""
Thus my term "plain pathetic".
"""For the time being, Russia plays the energy card "divide and rule" and will enjoy an eventual NATO dissolution."""
Russian habit: the waiting game. I see it all along these years you know...
"""Well, can you imagine what will happen next? Are the Bulgarians, the Serbs, the Greeks and the Montenegrins enough wise to organize their common entity on a confederation level in order to secure the peace on the Balkans?"""
Who would imagine even some decades back that we would reach this level? But if I turn this question: who would imagine even up to the mid-1800s that Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians would go on to war wiht each other? Well I am of the idea that if 1 or more big players want to make two people (or even one people) to fight they will fight either these want or not. Balkans are not even any good example of this, take the Arabs!!! In 1100 years of Turkish domination in the muslim world they had not staged a single valid revolution... yet they remembered to do it only when Europeans wished to extract the oil in the region.
"""Besides, if we accept your argument about the willingness of the US to rule this continent through the institutions of NATO, we must agree that the present status quo can prevent the Turks from any military adventure against their neighbours."""
In this, I really believe you do not calculate correctly. As a Greek I happen to know better what is NATO all about and it is all about dividing the world in blocks, not countries. Eg. when Britain is NATO, Gibraltar is NATO, Cyprus base Dekeleia is NATO too. Bosporus for example is not Turkey, it is NATO. Aegean is not Greek, it is NATO. A NATO country constructs its army not to defend the country but to defend NATO interests. And NATO will oversee if countries defend correctly NATO interests.
Now, there is a game that has commenced long before (I would say, since the early 1960s, when US took over from Britain the "responsibility" of the Eastern Mediterranean). Its preference was Turkey that was already occupying the passage of Bosporus. However, Turkey does not thing when:
1) The Aegean belongs to Greece (also a NATO member)
2) There are alternative land routes linking the Adriatic and the black sea via Bulgaria and ex-Jugoslavia.
Now, you have already noted that even since the 1950s "somehow" magically Jugoslavia came out of being part of the Warsow pact and being actually a close friend to British and Americans (more than you could imagine), leading the "neutral nations". And "somehow" communist Albania remembered the... Chinese and got isolated from Moscow (incredible things happen eh?). It was all about closing the routes.
It goes without saying that the division of Jugoslavia was all about closing the routes too with the notable remark that this was something that western Europeans also wanted and thus the crime hangs from their necks - especially of Germans, Austrians, Dutch, Italians and British, less of French and of course not at all of Spanish or Portuguese who along with Greeks were the only ones who spoke against the dissolution of Jugoslavia.
However, there is still a problem for the US even in a dissoluted Jugoslavia. They have achieved the wreckage of a quite powerful and very civilised nation, the Serbians favouring the Nazi-fans Croatians and the mujjahedin Albanians, then paying up the Montenegrans (Montenegrans are Serbians out of whom the 50% has strong regional sentiments, however they do not form clearly a different nation, but a Serbian population of different historical path) to landlock Serbia. Hence Serbian routes are not of use anymore to Russians. However, there is still a lovely route joining Bulgaria, a traditional Russian ally (that even 1000 Borisovs cannot change), and Greece, a good-old orthodox ally of Russia that increasingly rebuilts the historic ties after a century of Russian-British(Greece was its protectorate)/USSR-USA rivalry in the region. With Greece being a dissafected US protectorate (and US is very conscious of that, they are not dumb of not knowing what results have their politics) and communism out, for Greece there is a mathematical approach towards Russia.
Therefore Americans will be clinging even more to Turkey to retain control and restrain Russia's access to the Mediterranean. NATO maybe, Greek NATO forces have been attacked by Turkish, British and US NATO forces even in the hottest points of the cold war and throughout it, so one can only guess how much more feasible is this right now!!!
Now there is a mechanism that commenced at the incitment of US (and partial European = British) circles of interest as far back as the 1960s which pushes for Turkey enlarging its direct control over the whole area streching from beyond Caucasus to the Balkans. Of course, this is only music to the Turks whose historic reason of existence is to expand and rule over others. The building of turkish military machine, the building of the turkish military industry, the relative imbalance of provisions to Greece (by the way they win some money from there too!!! always play both sides) and of course the famous interest in turkish military in its amphibious capabilities.
Along with Turkey, Bosnia, a haven for world-wide muslims and Albania, a well known old muslim ally of Turks are used in a prominent role, no need for anyone to add anything on that. It goes hand in hand with the re-islamisation of Turkey which is of course within the US plan. On the one hand, Turkey makes the link to the Bosnians and Albanians, on the other it makes the link to muslim illegal immigrants flushed by Turkish state-organised slave trade into Greece (remember Turgut Ozal in the 1980s? "I do not need to make war with Greece, I only need to flush Asian on them, and take them without war"...) to be added to nearly 1 million illegal or illegal made legal Albanians risiding in/out of Greece pushed after a US blackmail to Greece to open the borders back in 1992 following the Maastricht treaty.... and at the end they correct the Kurdish issue for the moment by selling them religion, not language or ethnicity and thus not only keeping them down but even eventually using them against the infidels like they had used them in the Armenian genocide).
"""Otherwise, we, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians and Montenegrins should go to Kremlin along with our old banners, icons and saint books, thus assuring Messrs. Putin/Medvedev of our commitment to the orthodox values and traditions… That will be really a pathetic situation."""
For whom would be a pathetic situation? For Russians? For the Slavic nations and Hellenic nation habitating this corner of the world? For EU? For USA?
Cos it can't be a pathetic situation for all.
The answer should be quite obvious.
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No, greeks can't escape defaulting.
Just look at them protesting in droves against retirement age being raised to 65. What year are they living in? Almost entire world retires at 65 or later. Some don't even have retirement. Having the highest government paid jobs (in % of population) in the world after communist countries, all greeks have the dream of early retirement, having their kids positioned in government jobs too.
Oh, but that is all USA, Germany and Turkey's fault. Just look at them ugly Turks genociding 5 million christians, invading left and right. Afterall, greece is the bastion of europe, right? wrong.
In Turkey people don't talk about greece, they don't even think about greece. Look at Nik and Niklings spamming every single blog with pages of posts trying to drag Turkey into their equations, spamming about WW1, WW2, cold war, ancient history, roman times, Turks genociding 10 million christians yadda yadda. Well, it doesn't work. You are bankrupt while Turkey's economy is booming. Turkey doesn't have to attack anywhere, when they can simply pay and buy. How bout less talk, more work? Oh, and look for some tinfoils from ebay cos greece is of no importance to Turkey or Russia, so your doom&gloom scenarios just make you look more paranoid, Nik. This is not 16th century anymore.
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@341 powermeerkat
“Of course, one could argue that KGB attempt to assassinate the JPII also constituted a violation of separation of church and state principle.”
The attempt constituted even a far more mean crime against the Christian civilisation. A shameful, vile act. The Pope warned many times the Eastern and the Western leaders to come closer each other on the ground of the Christian solidarity. Nobody listened. Now, there is no doubt that both Kremlin and Washington DC are compelled to cooperate against the common enemy – the fundamentalism (as if John Paul II had predicted what would happen next. He paid visit to Bulgaria and stayed here a week! He was welcomed very warmly.)
“[do you know that Kara Mustafa killed himself after the Battle of Vienna at sultan's request, to save his family from 'kisim'?]”
We know the history. Suleiman was also present there. His favourite wife was of Ukrainian origin. Many Bulgarians, previously converted to Islam took part in the battle…
“Don Ellis renamed one of those tunes "Bulgarian Bulge". “
Milcho Levieff, like the designer Christo, just like the writers Julia Krasteva and Tzvetan Todorov is just another proof that little Bulgaria is still able to join the civilised world through its excellent art achievements and musical performances. Milcho comes here once a year to perform his latest genial pieces of Jazz at the traditional “Apolonia” art festival (1-10 sept. at Sozopol, on the Black sea).
“P.P.S. If you like really good poetry Zbigniew Herbert is your man. His "Report from a Besieged City" is actually about marshall-law Warsaw.”
Thanks, shall google the link.
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@359 Nik
"In this, I really believe you do not calculate correctly. As a Greek I happen to know better what is NATO all about and it is all about dividing the world in blocks, not countries. Eg. when Britain is NATO, Gibraltar is NATO, Cyprus base Dekeleia is NATO too. Bosporus for example is not Turkey, it is NATO. Aegean is not Greek, it is NATO. A NATO country constructs its army not to defend the country but to defend NATO interests. And NATO will oversee if countries defend correctly NATO interests."
True. But all that argument is just in support of my argument that for the time being Turkey is embarassed to attack its NATO allies. It's not in the interest of Uncle Sam.
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Mathiasen & any 'pro-EU' out there:
Germany's Suddeutsche Zeitung newspaper reports German MEP Ingeborg Grable, a member of the EU-EP Committee on Budgets yesterday as saying, "..the Commission asks States to look into prolonging the working life of Citizens, while it keeps sending its own employees into retirement early..".
Meanwhile, also yesterday, the Wall Street Journal reported Hungary's Economic Minister, Mr Matolcsy as saying, "..we told our EU partners that further austerity measures were out of the question.."
The commentary on this was that an EU Member State acting in such a manner suggested others, e.g. Greece, Spain may well find it difficult to maintain Public support/understanding of their 'cuts' etc. if another Nation just walks away declaring to the EU, 'No more!'
On the same day, Les Echos newspaper claimed it had non-attributable 'official' information that 20 of the 91 EUropean Banks would 'fail the stress tests'
That's almost 1 in 4 will be shown to be unsafe: Again, the commentary was not upbeat - - the likely knock-on effect on Consumer as well as Financial investor confidence will undermine those cleared of danger & for sure additional Funds will be required!
Such was the collective deluge that Le Figaro chipped in with, '2-day CAP Discussions in Brussels' and suggested sources indicated, '..most insidious discussions will concern EUropean solidarity. CAP redistributes revenue. In times of thin cows, the transfer of billions of EUros of public money from one country to another could turn out to be highly controversial. All the more so when Germany is the main contributor..'
I would only add it is amazing if Le Figaro's Editor has just woken up to the 'CAP controversy' - - where has the journo been for 3 decades!?
On a day of sparkling EU news, La Stampa carried an article that posed the following issue: 'WHY establish such a huge EU Foreign Service when, "there are more divergences than convergences among EU members?"'
'.. the administrative tooling up and kitting out required of this EU global leviathon could not be taking place at a worse time..'
'.. the juxtaposition of Fiscal-austerity at Government level and apparent continuing largesse at EU 'Head Office' is causing unease even in Brussels..'
If normally ultra-supportive of EU media are beginning to sense and report increasing disquiet about EU activities at this critical juncture then something very traumatic maybe ahead.
Along with my EU Budget enquiries at #313 & #330 it seems I am far from a lone voice that something extremely unseemly and negligent is occurring at the core of the EU-Brussels entity in these straitened times!
For the EU to continue in this disrespectful & uncaring spendthrift manner is amazing: Put alongside its deletarious 'democratic' path as well as failure to represent and/or consult its Citizens during these increasingly arduous times it may be these are final steps to set-up late-2010/early-2011 as defining months for Public Opposition to ferment.
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Re 3353
Quotes, ".. You understand.. extreme-left organisation (in Greece) do not exist.. random US Agents..."
".. these fake organisations have not only been used to kill irritating journalists... but also internal clearances like the assassination of the CIA station man in Greece..."
".. when you hear such murders you have to read either local US henchmen.. or sometimes even US themselves.."
Apparently those responsible for murdering a Greek Journalist were either Americans or double-agents & anarchic circles in the pay of Americans!
There just isn't any point to any thing is there unless an American or Briton plotted it!?
This isn't paranoia, this is a much more serious psychological disorder.
Hilarity is misplaced and is replaced by severe concern such drivel is peddled by an adult Greek who presumably though on medication is out on the streets!
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359. At 1:28pm on 20 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
No, greeks can't escape defaulting.
"""Just look at them protesting in droves against retirement age being raised to 65. What year are they living in? Almost entire world retires at 65 or later."""
Same in Greece, already since years now. Your partial inability to read laws, rules on the one side, wage policies on the other and what really Greeks protest for (and how this is distorted by the political class of the syndicalists) makes you arrive at such conclusions. Of course you do not like Greeks and wish the worst for them, so you would not be bothered to make a more sober analysis. Thus you should not expect being taken seriously in such a discussion which yourself say is none of your knowledge, none of your business.
"""Oh, but that is all USA, Germany and Turkey's fault."""
Who said it is all down to Turkey? For US involvement we can discuss it in the according level: you can't have a British/US-imposed and directly US-led nomenclature in Greece for more or less uninterruptedly 60 years creating, nurturing and finally bursting this crisis and then saying it is a shame for Greeks to throw responsibility on Americans - Greek guys, like me, only analyse the root-causes of the problem, they do not throw it to others: we have to deal with it. Do not pretend to know better than us the structure of our society and how politics went on the last 60 years.
"""Just look at them ugly Turks genociding 5 million christians, invading left and right. Afterall, greece is the bastion of europe, right? wrong."""
Whatever. Are you able to read the lines and comprehend or not?
The genocides happened. They happened in a particular geopolitical context that is not totally unrelated to current ongoing events that you are far from comprehending. But let us declare past stories, history.
Now back to business and do not escape the points:
1)Greece enforces international law and brings its territory to 12 miles which is the international minimum.
Any problem with it?
2)Greece has signed for the Southstream. It needs not Nabucco.
Any problem with it?
There I want your answers.
"""In Turkey people don't talk about greece, they don't even think about greece."""
Good. That is how we want it too.
12 miles now + Southstream.
"""Look at Nik and Niklings spamming every single blog with pages of posts trying to drag Turkey into their equations,"""
It is not my equations, the are American equations. There is no Turkey I am talking but NATO. You are acting so childish as to have a problem with a Greek blogger describing the situation as it is. But you do not have a problem with Americans dragging your ocuntry, Turkey, in their equations.
"""...spamming about WW1, WW2, cold war, ancient history, roman times, Turks genociding 10 million christians yadda yadda."""
It is 4 million genocided and 3 million ethnically cleansed in the most violent and horrific conditions from 1910 to 1923 and from there one in the following decades the "left-overs" were also pongromed and cleansed. That is something you cannot change. It is a shame that will be always following you however you deal about. It is like that. As said, declare that past story history - no matter if you don't even do this minimum thingie and keep on killing and imprisoning people in your country that try to undestand what had happened in these events you are celebrating internally and vehemently refusing internationally. Your issue, your culture, your way of thinking, you deal with it accordingly.
But coming here saying that evething is unrelated and that all events are independent and random is really childish. Geopolitics have the word geo in it, which in Greek means land. As far as I know, land changes little over 10,000 years let alone over 100 years, thus why would anyone expect that basic geopolitical policies would change that easily? It is bound that British politics in the region in 20th century aiming to contain Russia would largely coincide with US politics in the region aiming to contain Russia in the late 20th and beginning of the 21st century.
"""Well, it doesn't work. You are bankrupt while Turkey's economy is booming."""
Good for you. We are not jealous of other people you know, afterall we were never particularly rich and won't either become particularly poor.
"""Turkey doesn't have to attack anywhere,"""
Really?
Let us apply international law then. 12 miles now.
"""when they can simply pay and buy."""
The purchased-one cannot pay and buy anything but only in the name of the one who has bought him.
"""How bout less talk, more work?"""
Yes. How about project Southstream?
"""Oh, and look for some tinfoils from ebay cos greece is of no importance to Turkey"""
12 miles. Southstream.
"""or Russia,"""
12 miles Southsteam.
"""so your doom&gloom scenarios just make you look more paranoid, Nik. This is not 16th century anymore."""
This is the 21st century and started really "promising". Just like the 20th century. Just like the 19th century.
Now leave aside your hurt feelings and start visualising the reality around you. And try to participate in the discussion: this is no discussion about "my guns are bigger than yours" but about geopolitics. Get a lexicon and learn the term.
Try and learn something instead of crying out against viewpoints that you do not even understand.
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#353 I was suspecting elements within the Greek government rather than US agents for some reason....
One thing I know is...If I was Che wannabe with a gun and the training, I would have better targets than independent journalists.
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Re #349 "Of course I am not against economic cooperation, friendship and all that, but I firmly believe we don't actually need the EU (as it is now) for that."
That's exactly what many Britons say: that they or their parents supported and opted for a Common Market; not a superstate run by non-elected bureaucrats in Brussels.
And that Lisbon Treaty is a lie, since it it the same EU Constitution, which was earlier soundly rejected by the Dutch and the French.
[Germans couldn't since their system does not provide for referenda.
(If they were allowed Angela M. would have been a toast by now)]
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gf wrote:
if we accept your argument about the willingness of the US to rule this continent through the institutions of NATO, we must agree that the present status quo can prevent the Turks from any military adventure against their neighbours. Otherwise, we, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians and Montenegrins should go to Kremlin along with our old banners, icons and saint books, thus assuring Messrs. Putin/Medvedev of our commitment to the orthodox values and traditions… That will be really a pathetic situation.
HEAR, HEAR! :)
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Judging by the number and length of the postings, Mr Nik is either unemployed and lives in his bedroom, sweating over a hot keyboard, or "he" is a committee of ultra-nationalistic Greeks. The paranoia! The conspiracy theories! The conviction, as Bora(number 359) wrote at 1:28pm on 20 Jul 2010, that everything that has ever happened, is happening, or will happen to Greece(the centre of the Universe) is at all times never the responsibility of anyone who has ever lived there!
To powermeerkat(number 293) at 12:34pm on 19 Jul 2010, who wrote:
"meerkat:I can fully understand that for historical reasons many Greeks and Balkan Slavs still hate Turks (more or less openly).””
Nick: You can understand nothing.
Meerkat: At this point our exchanges will end, at least on my part.
I can understand patriotism.
I will never understand/accept blind chauvinism and jingoism.
BTW. where has it got ya?" and cool_brush_work, who at 8:07pm on 19 Jul 2010,wrote(number 334):
"Re #333. You are right.
I do feel very, very, very, very, very, very, very 'embarrassed': How could I ever have for a moment thought a word of sense could ever emanate from anything originating with You. You are right. (After this) I will hide away (from You). It just is so much easier on my conscience", you have my sympathies gentlemen.
I commented on another BBC HYS thread that trying to discuss anything with Mr Nik brings to mind the problem always involved when arguing with an idiot; very soon, no onlooker can differentiate between you and the idiot. I no longer even try to respond to his screeds, as life is too short.
"As a Greek I happen to know better what is NATO all about and it is all about dividing the world in blocks".....says all that needs to be said really.
Do we have a candidate for the next vacancy or Secretary-General of NATO?
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"how on earth a random anarchist knows where he finds the CIA station man?"
Calling U.S. Embassy in Athens?
[if a Greek telecom employees are not on yet another strike]
A CIA station Chief in any country is a legal representative of the agency, and clearly identified as such.
They didn't tell you that at the morning briefing?
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"Do you think its all about KGB and Litvinenko and Politovskaya?"
Its PoliTkovskaya.
And Sadulayeva. And Estemirova. And...
All killed by "unknown assailants".
Whom highly efficient FSB couldn't find.
I guess FSB forgot to check the most obvious: its own payroll.
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There are so many Greek islands in Aegean and some are so close to Turkey that you can communicate with someone on that island by shouting from Turkish coast. Increasing greek coastline to 12 miles means when you put your feet in water on Turkish coast you'll be crossing into greek border. But as Nik brings that up, let me also remind/enlighten everyone on the subject of Aegean islands. According to Lausanne treaty aegean islands were to be and stay demilitarized. Does greece abide the treaty? No, they now have military bases on the islands cos they're still after the Sevres treaty where Anatolia was divided by allied forces after fall of ottoman empire in ww1, giving greece some aegean coast of Turkey. Greeks dont respect Lausanne treaty which was signed after Turkish Republic was born . Then they go on about Turkish agression on aegean. Hey Nik, do you get offended when I swim on aegean coast of Turkey? Or should I get a schengen visa for that?
Not to mention the 12 islands given to greece in 1947, which are even closer to Turkish coast. Greeks have never ever given up on their dream of hellenization of entire aegean, including aegean coast of Turkey. So greeks are the agressors, not Turkey, since they don't follow treaties as much as they blame Turkey on the 12-mile issue which they keep bringing up.
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Now Generalissimo, I intended to do a large analysis but my friend little Bora (he has to be a young person) here really is going to cry out loud for long so I will go directly to the hot issues:
12 miles. We have discussed about it, blah blah access to the Black sea and everything.
Southstream vs. Nabucco. We have discussed about it, blah blah gas provision of Europe for the decades to follow and everything.
However the third issue that links the 2 above is an even more basic one:
It is the general commercial (and thus political & military) traderoute that links the Mediterranean to the Black Sea.
Go back to the map (Bora, you too, it concerns your country) and have a close look at the Bosporus. Turkey has both sides of it, yet the sea is considered under international law as an international passage and thus the waters are not in the jurisdiction of Turkey apart a nominal control which Turkey is entitled to apply for the better management of the passage.
Inside the treaties there are paragraphs stating that Turkey can impose no control over the flow of inward or outward commerce but it can enforce a control of inward or outward flow of military vessels. There are conditions restricting the number as well as type of military vessels that can pass inwards and outwards the Bosporus passage.
So far fine. Afterall, during the cold war there was relatively not any spectacular traffic as all other nations were in the communist block, while Russia's military vessel exists to the Mediterranean were limited and of nominal nature.
However, and while even today Russia does not present any more will to put out military vessels (for the time being), since the 00s, 10 years after the dissapearence of the communist block, commerce restarted in the Black Sea. Which means that we currently in the phase of re-establishment of the good old Black-sea - Mediterranean international trade-route.
Normally Turkey should jump over this opportunity. However, as said, Turkey is Turkey but Turkey is also NATO, and NATO is NATO, not Turkey. For Turkey, the re-establishment of the passage is a case of huge opportunities, however for NATO this is the worst news. Given my paragraph above where I present the mitigated success/failures of NATO in central and eastern Asia as well as northern Europe and Caucasus, the Bosporus channel becomes alarmingly for Americans the last combat zone in the region. If Turkey grasps the commercial opportunity, in NATO terms this is equated to losing Bosporus to Russians. What is also bad news for Americans is that Turkey wants to have really a lot of business with Russians and Russians too examine the case of Turkey. What is good news for Americans is that their hold in Turkey is very deep in the sense that the country had been created out of ashes of the long collapsed Ottoman Empire thanx to the involvement of Britain back in the end of WWI and thus the very existence of Turkey depends on Americans, not Russians. A single click from Americans suffices to turn Turkey, a country of the "not 60 but only 42 ethicities where 1 in 4 is a Kurd", as Turks themselves jokingly say, into the next Jugoslavia if Turkey does not play the game "correctly". Good news for Americans is that Turkish leadership, both Kemalists and islamists are more or less ok with the vision that US prepares for Turkey, i.e. to become the dominant nation in the Eastern Mediterranean and act as a wall between Russia and Mediterranean (but also between Europe and Asia) - a role Turks know well since they have played it all along the 20th century as well as pretty much for most of their Ottoman history (since late 17th century being maintained in existence by British & French only to contain Russian expansion). Hence, while a large part of Turkish industrialists and businessmen call for more commercial links to Russia, the Turkish kemaloislamic combination of an establishment, though battling with itself, it remains overwhelmingly pro-US and will do just about anything.
And what is that "anything" have to do with Bosporus? Well. Closing it. Not completely, but enough to strangle the ongoing opening of the Black Sea commercial traderoute.
How?
Environment! The new narcotic. Increasing traffic will increase polution. Such an issue of course was never posed in Suez or Panama which are by far more narrow passages and thus more easily poluted by the same amount of ships no matter if in each of the Suez, Panama or Singapoor passages pass overwhelmingly more ships than what will pass from Bosporus. Turkey will at some point protest openly - they are already preparing such a move and will bring in in the right time : they, not Turks but Americans. Turks will just come out & read the text.
There will be an issue. What issue? Say an "accident"? Perhaps involving a petrol or gas or chemical carrying ship? A good reason to call in for passage control and for environmental reasons. Turkey (i.e. the NATO text) will claim that it won't affect the commerce and they will propose a pipeline + railway to transfer goods along the channel so as to reduce the number of ships passing but then this is not feasible to be done in the channel thus it will be like asking the Russians accepting having their quasi totality of their southern commerce to pass not by international waters (that become automatically defacto NATOic) but by NATO controlled land.
Not playing the prophet Generalissimo. But when you will hear an accident-big issue in Bosporus, start worrying. Bora should not lose time worrying, he should start preparing his tins.
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Just read all the posts and try to make a link of Nik's posts to the blog subject. Can anyone? It is the same in every single blog, the blame game continues. Does anything he says have anything to do with Greece's 350 billion euro debt? Or a third of greek population being government paid civil servants? I mean, has anyone had a nice experience of bureaucracy in greece? Surely with all of them being civil servants one would expect bureaucracy to be clockwork, right?
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CBW,
Re:363
All duly noted. However, I fail to see what your proposal to deal with this is, apart from the usual ‘get rid of the EU’.
We can get rid of the EU, which ‘looks into prolonging the working life of Citizens, while it keeps sending its own employees into retirement early’ and then what?
Let me guess. We go back to the Great Britain, where everybody had already been democratically consulted before the ruling Tories recently announced cuts in spending for renovation of schools, while cheerfully sending their ‘deserving’ offspring to the not-so-aptly-named ‘public’ schools.
Great Britain, where indeed the working life will be prolonged for everybody, except for ‘our pride and joy’ the City-boys, who make ’60% of GDP’ and who after 5 years of short-selling and creating financial bubbles that bust the economy, can retire at the ripe old age of 45 to the Caiman Islands, where income tax is 0.05%.
Great Britain, where there is so much accord in foreign and domestic policies, that any party in Scotland can win an outright majority in the Scottish parliament, if it only includes ‘independence’ and ‘our oil’ in its pre-election manifesto.
I agree that ‘Public Opposition fermentation’ is long overdue. However, before sorting out the EU, could they first sort out Britain, where laws stipulate that after spending a quarter of a million pounds to buy a shabby two-bedroom flat, people still need to pay ground rent to the ‘elected’ Duke of Westminster, whose only merit is that his great-grandfather came with William the Conqueror? Or where state sponsored Catholic schools happily receive the tax money of non-Catholics, yet only accept ‘cared-for Catholic children, whose parents are also Catholics’?
Please! Anybody? Hello?
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What am I missing? How can I be so daft as to not understand what bosphorus has to do with greece's 350 billion euro debt? Can someone other than Nik explain? (since I have difficulty in understanding him)
What does cold war have to do with current greek economy? I mean when the iron curtain fell, wasn't greek economy better than what it is now? Or did they have more than 350 billion euro debt at the time? I just can't understand Nik's posts..Somebody help!!
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' Along with Turkey, Bosnia, a haven for world-wide muslims'
We've just commemorated a sad anniversary of Srebrenica Masasacre.
[at least 7000 Bosnian Muslims slaughtered. In the heart of Europe]
Some haven, indeed. :-(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
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380. At 3:27pm on 20 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
We've just commemorated a sad anniversary of Srebrenica Masasacre.
[at least 7000 Bosnian Muslims slaughtered. In the heart of Europe]
Some haven, indeed. :-(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The importance of Srebrenica is not that 7000 people were slaughtered, it's that they were slaughtered in 3 days, under NATO protection, and the event is clearly documented. The death toll of the entire massacre is over 100.000
Of course in this day & age where satellites can track down individual people, it wasn't hard to watch serbian bulldozers digging up corpses and burrying them in seperate places in groups. Hence the discovery of new mass graves every year with couple dozen bodies here, another couple dozens there.
Is this Nik's description of "Haven"?
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"Oh, but that is all USA, Germany and Turkey's fault."
[for Greece being a sick man of Europe]
Bora, my man, you forgot to add UK.
[you may be forgiven for omitting Australia, Canada and Greenland. :)]
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gf wrote: Milcho [Leviev] comes here once a year to perform his latest genial pieces of Jazz at the traditional “Apolonia” art festival (1-10 sept. at Sozopol, on the Black sea).
Know Sozopol. And Nesseber[lovely].
Glad to hear Milcho is alive and well.
Haven't seen him in donkey's years.
[he told me he studied under Taneyev in Sofia]
P.S. There's this great Norwegian [:)))] tenor/soprano sax player Jan Garbarek (played for many years in the legendary Keith Jarrett Quartet.)
You may like him too.
As well as Lutoslawski's seminal "Trois Poems d'Henri Michaux".
BTW. Keith Jarrett told me once he was of Hungarian descent.
[Although born in Pennsylvania].
Yep, the world is so small.
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Re: 380/381 Srebrenica
It must not be forgotten that both (or rather: all three... four... howver many) sides were engaging in less than savoury behaviour.
Militias composed of Bosnian and Albanian (ie Kosovar) muslims had done similar stuff in Croatian and Serbian villages, though probably not one single event like Srebrenica. And yes I know, one ill does not excuse another.
But it has to be noted, at the beginning of what I call the Yugoslavian civil wars, certain groups 'refounded' former military units that had been active during World War II. Bosnian muslims, for example, named a unit and its subdivisions after the notorious Waffen-SS division 'Handschar' (scimitar) which had been active in 'anti partisan' actions in World War II, indiscriminately killing jews, Serbs and anyone else they didn't like.
I'm not quite sure how Alija Izetbegovic came away being regarded some sort of statesman, when it is on his invitation that 'jihadi' from the Middle East came to Bosnia to fight.
Another shady event of that era was diplomats from a certain 'European\ construct who visited Milosevic (then president of Yugoslavia) and promising him support to keep Yugoslavia together.
"The European Union, like the US also did later, recognized Milosevic as key to finding a solution, and turned a blind eye to his complicity in the crimes that were committed in the prosecution of Serbian war aims....The settlement had the effect of strengthening the hand [in their respective states] of Milosevic and Tudjman"
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Isenhorn
Re #378
Think You misread slightly: They were all quotes from EUropean media; You can dislike the content, but I do not apologise for bringing together a series of coincidental critiques of various aspects of the EU.
Furthermore, can we just get away from this 'what is wrong with the UK' lame-duck/sham argument.
What is so significantly so much better about the EU that it makes the UK/England redundant?
According to those newspaper quotes nothing: It is more of the same.
Yes, I do propose a return to G.B./UK though my preference as often expressed on here is for 4 Referenda on Membership across the Union & each Nation decides for itself about the EU enterprise.
Sorry, but the tired red-herring of 'aristocrat' Britain just does not cut it as an argument for being inside the EU or even a UK! You are indirectly stating the 'Duke Of Westminster' is a reason to be in the EU (as if that is ever going to get rid of anachronisms) and frankly those sorts of anachronisms can be pointed to in almost every country!
Unfortunately, when You go on about the UK it is by forgetting about Germany's, Belgium's, Italy's, Spain's etc. noble class owning masses of land, property, businesses etc. & also benefitting from ancient rights & privileges. Continental EUrope as well as the British Isles has this phenomena of throwbacks in culture/politics/justice etc.
Ever looked up the Aristocrat Families of mainland EUrope - - in fact, did You not see the recent appearance of the Chairman of BP in the States when he referred to "..small people.." (I know, honestly, a caricature of a caricature if ever there was one) - - he heads up a Global British Company & is descended from one of the longest lines of Swedish Nobility!
Come on, it's woven into the cultural fabric of all EUrope - - even the French, despite 1789, still have their Aristocracy - - and it is surely not the 'big issue' that determines EU v UK/England disputes.
"..ground rent.."/"..Public-private Schools"! It's just a ruse to distract from the real lives of millions in Britain and hundreds of millions across EUrope - - if Ground Rent was all they had to worry about they'd be voting for the Toffs to make a comeback across the whole continent - - come on You have to do better than that. Writing as if G.B. is the only place where the rich won't be affected by 'cuts' or that only in G.B. will their off-spring will continue to enjoy lifestyles the masses only see in tv docus.
Next You will be suggesting the EU-Brussels entity is the bastion of common-ownership, equal pay & conditions and only British schools have differences over Faith etc.: Yeah right!
What is this point-up the faults of UK theory?
Is it that You have nothing to say about the invidious corruption of the CAP? No comment on the duplicitous EP whose 760+ MEPs couldn't even muster one meaningful debate on behalf of their Constituent EU Citizens between January & June '09 as the EU elite debated how to take Billions of Tax-payers Money without consulting them? Have You no worthwhile commentary on the EU Foreign Office setting-up identikit Consulates across the World with those of 27 National Governments?
To put it another way: I believe the UK and most especially England gains almost nothing from the EU and would significantly benefit from a much reduced/looser role/association with Brussels. It is my contention the 50,000,000 English or 62,000,000 Britons or parts thereof would do far better as an independent, entrepreneurial, self-Governing Democracy. Able to respond more readily, more appropriately and more decisively on behalf of English/Britons than the one-size-fits-all, stitch-up of Unelected, Unrepresentative, Unaccountable exploitative 'big-Business/big-Government' elitists currently inhabiting the corridors of the EU-Brussels.
As You rightly point out there are things to sort out in UK/England (some originating from historic evolution & some extremely modern, as with any Nation): Nothing about post-Maastricht Brussels' Directives/Subsidiarities/Competencies/faux-Democracy etc. suggest they will be better resolved as 1-of-27/1-of-500,000,000 than as 1-of-4(or less)/1-of-50/60,000,000.
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"British are known to be cold calculators"
Not at Cannakale [Galipoli], they sure weren't.
That's how Churchill lost his Lord of Admiralty title. And much more.
[too bad Greeks allied themselves against that brilliant strategist from Saloniki too. What was his name? Mustafa Kemal? :-))))))))))))))))))))))]
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Bora
Re #376
Attempting to understand or interpret the mad-Greek compares unfavourably with having teeth drawn without anaesthetic though at least that painful tooth does eventually ease.
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"They [Americans] have already lost most of the North Pole."
Tell that to all those 'boomer' drivers sitting there under N. Pole ice.
Waiting. [Icepack they call'em. :)]
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MacTurk
Re #371
There is no rhymne, no reason, no theory even - - he just babbles on.
40 years ago when I was at College I recall a Police raid in the early hours on a student's room down the corridor from mine - - no one had seen the occupant for 4 days & there had been what was then called incredibly loud, 'psychadelic' music eminating non-stop from it.
The Police found 2 students in an LSD haze completely heedless of time, space or themselves - - the mad-Greek shows all the signs and it's very sad.
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371. At 2:53pm on 20 Jul 2010, MacTurk:
Thanx for admitting so openly your inability to present a valid argument!
374. At 3:02pm on 20 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
"""There are so many Greek islands in Aegean and some are so close to Turkey that you can communicate with someone on that island by shouting from Turkish coast. Increasing greek coastline to 12 miles means when you put your feet in water on Turkish coast you'll be crossing into greek border."""
You are bending the reality either of lack of knowledge either of will to avoid the issue. International law deals in precision with such cases: 12 miles extend to all islands regardless of size and in cases of approaching the borders/waters of another country they are reduced accordingly. Eg. in those places where there is a 7 miles distance between the Greek island and Turkey mainland the waters are divided in half, 3,5 for each. The international treaties signed by your country too define in precision these cases. Your country threatens your neighbouring country with war over the application of international treaties governing the rule of waters that it has itself signed and resigned and signed again and again in the 1930s, 50s and even the 70s.
In other words, your answer is an indirect admission of the fact that according to Turks if Greeks go on applying their sovereignty rights they should be answered with war.
Note (just to give you a slight idea):
- you asked me above what is the link of such issues with economy:
=> I invite you to invite serious investments in an area whose sovereignty is aggressively disputed by a neighbouring country.
But let us leave this point here for the time being.
"""According to Lausanne treaty aegean islands were to be and stay demilitarized.""""
Yes. Just like whole parts of Eastern Thrace and Bosporus channel all along, both sides. The Lausanne treaty also mentioned a 250,000 Greek community in Konstantinople/Istanbul (which under normal increase inside Turkey should be a minimum half a million today) as well as that the islands of Imbros and Tenedos (I do not know how you call the 2 islands you have in front of the Dardanelles), habitated in their quasi-totality by a Greek population, would remain in the nominal possesion of Turkey for 50 years and then the habitants would vote (as if...) for their independence and/or annexation to Greece.
So Turkey has annulated everysingle point of the Lauzanne treaty and comes with it to ask things from Greece? What do you ask exactly? Disarm our islands? Why? What is your problem with Greek army being there? It is all about defensive missiles. They are useless for attack. Do you feel threatened by Greek defenses? We did not ask you to disarm Eastern Thrace or the Bosporus perhaps? Does Greece has any vision to attack Minor Asia?
No need to explain. Turkey has an aggressive policy against Greece and demands lands and waters in the Aegean (let alone north-eastern Greece where you try call every single muslim a Turk despite the vast majority of them being Pomaks and gipsies). It is bound not to like having Greece installing defense systems in islands.
"""Does greece abide the treaty? No."""
I underline it: you ask Greece to abide to a treaty you have violated on almost every single point - and in what spectacular fashion: the pongrom against the 250,000 Greeks of Istanbul and the open prisons in Imbros and Tenedos to exterminate the Greek population. You understand you open your own can of worms there!
"""they now have military bases on the islands cos they're still after the Sevres treaty where Anatolia was divided by allied forces after fall of ottoman empire in ww1, giving greece some aegean coast of Turkey."""
The term military base is quite humouristic. What is there is all about installations for missiles stockage potentially turned into defensive missiles. Lauzanne treaty was written back in the 1920 when missiles did not exist. It prohibited the use of canons for the attack of ships passing in international waters. Technically the installation of defense missiles against air attacks is not even a violation of the Lauzanne treaty and if Turkey wishes to make an ammendment to include the new technology it is free to do so. Guess why Turkey never wished to make such an ammendment - maybe because Turkey cannot ask the ammendment of a treaty it has violated on every single point!!!
"""Greeks dont respect Lausanne treaty which was signed after Turkish Republic was born . Then they go on about Turkish agression on aegean."""
Talking about passing
"""Hey Nik, do you get offended when I swim on aegean coast of Turkey? Or should I get a schengen visa for that?"""
I am not offended at all. Few swimmers would even pass the 1 nautical mile which is more than 1 hour of furious swimming in a sea free of currents and wind. What is yours is your coastline. What is ours are the islands and 12 miles around them. Respect international law on sea.
"""Not to mention the 12 islands given to greece in 1947, which are even closer to Turkish coast. """
I laughed with the term "given". Do you also use it for how Turks found themselves having lands in Europe (question: did you take your european side by battle? by force? what kind of navy passed your men there really?). Anyway....
For your information the islands are called Dodekanesa out of being twelve and the formation include major islands like Rhodes. In WWII they were controlled by the Italians who lost the war and who had not any will to maintain these Greek islands habitated in their quasi-totality by Greek population. Naturally Greece took over control, it was not "given" to them in the sense you imply here. Why would you want a referendum perhaps? Or would you want them to join Turkey? On what basis where they yours? Turkey was a brand new state formed in 1922, that had nothing to do with these islands (unless you also want Algeria, Georgia and southern Ukraine... there I would understand your logic).
"""Greeks have never ever given up on their dream of hellenization of entire aegean, including aegean coast of Turkey."""
You cannot change the course of history. Greeks have a longer recorded history in the Minor Asian coast than the double of your whole nation's history. Take a spade and dig any coastal place in your country. That won't change unless another 2000 years of continuous Turkish history continues in Minor Asia which is up to your hand no matter the circumstances.
Now, you genocided all the Greek population there recently. Why would we dream on to hellenise an area that is currently habitated by millions of Turks. And how could we do it now, can you show to me a way? Sorry, I find this amusing.
"""So greeks are the agressors, not Turkey, since they don't follow treaties as much as they blame Turkey on the 12-mile issue which they keep bringing up."""
Not even yourself can believe such a blatant lie:
Imposing the Lauzanne treating implies:
1) Original residents of Immbros and Tenedos returning and voting their annexation to Greece. Automatically you lose them.
2) Original residents and their decendants of Konstantinople (currently around 500,000 Greeks) have to return and take back all their belongings which is actually more or less the 2/3 of the whole city. Automatically you lose financial and most possibly political control of Konstantinople.
3) Part of Eastern Thrace and both sides of Bosporus will be demilitirised.
... and many more nice thingies we absolutely not mind. Do you Bora?
376. At 3:07pm on 20 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
"""Just read all the posts and try to make a link of Nik's posts to the blog subject. Can anyone?"""
I won't comment on the fact that in such blogs many side or inter-related or sometimes even unrelated discussions open and I will take your comment linearly:
You might be young and "politically naif" (politically, not as a person), you might afterall not be interested, nobody expects you to be so. But my advice in case you are interested is to just read, state your rejection of my points, but take some notice on the side... just in case. Everything is information.
Now you speak of a blame game. I blame no-one don't you understand this? I talk of geopolitics and in that hobbyhorse whatever the language used, there is no blamegame. I go to the roots of the issues and in that I openly warn that I claim not to hold all the truth, yet my points are more often not than yes touched by the majority of people here if you read carefully between the lines. The financial side of the event are only the outer outcome.
Where do you place the successive murder of prominent Greek political leaders and their replacement with the Papandreou, the Karamanlis, the Mitsotakis or the Simitis families, some of them being openly US-citizens admitting serving US interests? I think I have very much spoken on things related directly with the 350b debt. Papandreou took the loans not myself you know. If some of the money Papandreou borrowed ended up in my salary should I be responsible for it? It is like accusing the patient suffering of leukaemia for having eaten Tchernobyl-affected lettuce.
Bora, I refer you to the following subject on European banks. Pay a visit later on. I will comment on the recent ongoing events in the merging of Greek banks and how it is going on. You might get an idea of how the game is played (and that in a vast majority of countries, it is not a local phenomenon...).
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"The US cannot do much in North East Asia other than maintaining huge bases in Japan and south Korea which aim Russia of course and not really China"
Anybody who knows anything about ballistics knows it's pure nonsence.
We bought Alaska for that purpose from Russia [to target the seller]
And have all necessary goodies in Aleutians; just a stone throw from Kamchatka's ICBM Polygon.:-)
[try again: the Earth is round, you know?]
P.S. U.S. does not need any land bases in the Far East that bad.
If push comes to shove the VIIth Fleet alone can obliterate quite a few countries in the region. [not that I'm advocating it, God forbid!]
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CBW, you attack me personally as you attack DT or any other frequent commentator that has even a slight different viewpoint from yours.
Your age + your sayings are an embarassing combination.
Teaches us that the "age=experience, wisdom" motto is absolutely meaningless.
For a change, you and powermeerkat (you have dragged along for some time into doing so) start talking on points. I do. DT does. MAII does talk points too (even if I most often have radically different viewpoints from his). You do not. I rarely see you coming with any point at all.
Anyway, go to the next thread and tell me your view point...
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#363. At 2:10pm on 20 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work
I had some problems in finding the article in Süddeutsche you were referring to. ß is double ss and the name has an umlaut too, transcribed it would be “Graessle”.
It is an interesting article, which you are referring in such a way that I would say, it does not speak for your credibility. Let me add a couple of things from the article, I would consider belonging to a decent account on its content:
1) The budget for 2011 is in the fog Alain Lamassoure, chairman of the budget committee in the EU Parliament in Bruxelles. This is also the headline of the article. It means that no one has any idea of where it will end.
2) Would you be so kind to tell us the positions of the political parties along with your own opinion? The largest fraction in the parliament, The European Peoples Party (conservative) will make symbolic cuts, says Graessle. Socialist budget expert Jutta Haug says to the paper that the socialists will not under any circumstance make cuts. It will be easy to make a compromise between the two groups.
3) The budget will be passed in November.
It belongs to a trustworthy account of the matter a least to mention the three points above. We all know the difference between a proposed budget and a passed budget.
It remains a mystery to me, why the EU sceptics have so great difficulties in understanding the political structure of the EU. May I just mention once again: The motor has been conservative and liberal parties, which have the majorities in national parliaments as well as in the EU machinery. However, most of it has been support by labour parties - see also #2 above. Together they represent large majorities.
Yesterday we learned that EU will raise the research budget with 12%. “Good news”, Germany television and German industry said. Hardly any other investment (expense of a national or EU budget) returns such a profit as the one made in research, development and education. Therefore.
Let me finally mention the news of the day: The planned cuts of 80 billion Euros on the German budget is getting nowhere. The resort ministers refuse to realise their own plans in legislation. They have of course noticed what you could also read here on BBC: The growth in the Euro zone is rising. It is therefore on this background a questionable premise, to say the least, to say that the member states cut and EU spends. Let us see in November.
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MacTursk asks:
Do we have a candidate for the next vacancy of Secretary-General of NATO?
After Rassmusen's term ends?
That's no brainer: you know which Mediterranean country has the most formidable and best equipped military force and is the staunchest supporter of NATO? [as well as PKK]
[a hint: nope, it ain't Turkey. :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))]
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Further:
The EU budget is limited to 1,23 per cent of the gross social product of the member states. (In other words, a dynamic limit.) It must balance since EU is not allowed to borrow money.
With 25 billion Euros Germany pays the largest part of the budget. (Süddeutsche calls it the European budget. A significant slip of the pen.)
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Bora: How can I be so daft as to not understand what bosphorus has to do with greece's 350 billion euro debt?
First:
bosforus is white.
second: terrorists don't like it.
Oh, that's phosphorus. My mistake. Sorrry!:(
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This just in from Greece's stauchest ally:
[according to you know who]
Russia will invest US $800m (£527m) into a new spaceport in the country's Far East, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has announced.
The move is meant to ease the dependence on the Baikonur launch site in Kazakhstan, built during the Soviet-era.
The future cosmodrome will be built near the town of Uglegorsk in the Far Eastern Amur region, close to the border with China.(BBC News)
Good. PRC can sure use a new free spaceport.
[once it gets Manchuria back]
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generalissimofranco: Thank you, for an invite; I shall visit the blog devoted to Smolensk plane crash (aka Katyn II) time permitting.
[Please be advised that BBC Rules do not allow any phrases in foreign languages.]
BTW. Since you're into music...
Igor Sulima Stravinski when he was a stateless person in the 20s entered a Polish embassy in Paris and demanded to be granted Polish citizenship (he was of Polish descent -minor nobility).
"And who might you be?" some young moron from the Polish Foreign Ministry arrogantly asked.
Stravinski turned around and left.
And that's why in almost all encyclopaedias he's described as a "great American composer of Russian descent".
BTW. Till the rest of his days Igor washed down his caviar with Polish vodka.
[must have been awfully sentimental; had I been treated like he was at that embassy in Paris - I'd have sooner drunk "Gorbatchovka".
Or at least "Finland" or "Absolut".]
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Mathiasen
Re #393
Thanks for replying, however, hold on Mathiasen! "..referrring in such a way, it does **not speak for your credibility**.."
I protest: I'm not responsible for any of the translations from my #363.
No such linguistic talent!
No, every quote is taken from the e-mail I received from 'Open Europe' web-page, and with no apology I freely admit I just put together those that suited my argument. That is the whole purpose, isn't it? Surely it is up to the 'pro-EU' to counter? Isn't that why I addressed my comment to you & the others and You have now responded?
I also would say that although You went into more detail from the article it does seem that my single sentence quote is more-or-less precisely the view expressed by the gentleman whose name I did not have the I.T. skills to type properly (sorry You had to search it out)?
Your allegation about not understanding the 'political structure of the EU' system is also unjustified: As I have had occasion to point out to You before the fact National Governments are elected by significant majorities has no relation to the EU Citizens' views on the EU - - less than 50% Voter Turnout in 4 consecutive elections speaks volumes for how the average EU Citizen views the EU entity - - it is precisely because we 'anti-EU' understand only too well that the EU abrogates & suborns Nationally elected Governments that every institution & their powers within the EU is considered anti-Democratic.
IMO the 'political' groupings to which You accord such significance are in no way representative of their EU Constituents' true political opinions: This is one of the most glaring weaknesses of the EU's Parliament - - Liberal/Conservative/Labour or whatever, they are misnomers for the categories of 'political' representation within the EP - - it would be intriguing & enlightening to put the Dutch/Swedish/Polish/Italian/British 'conservative MEP' together for a 'Stress Test' of their Common Beliefs!
Amazed delight all round I suspect if they managed to find 10 of 20 key-policy items in common never mind agreeing an order-of-priority. Doubtless, in my view, the same incredulity among the 'liberal' & 'labour/socialist' groupings.
I'm afraid it is simply untrue to claim there is 'political' support for the EU other than within the supra-National apparatus that sustain it: You are referring to the EUropean Parliament & indirectly to the unelected Commission.
These 2 branches of the EU do not have a Mandate from the Public: MEPs with less than 43% Voter Turnout and with absolutely no duty to be responsive to their Constituencies once elected are the antithesis of 'democracy'.
Is it not extraordinary across 27 Nations there have been numerous changes of Government over the the last 20 post-Maastricht years and not one resignation of the ruling group within the EP!? Remarkable stability: Or, put another way - - once elected they are there until the next election irrespective of anything they do or their Constituents' concerns!
The Commission can at least claim its members result from selections made at Nationally elected level: However, as these appointments rely on compromise, fudge & fixes without any transparency the 'democratic' element is threadbare! Sometimes 'pro-EU' point to the way a UK Cabinet is selected but there really is very limited comparison: Afterall, the Party/Parties with the most Seats forms the Government and all Citizens know this whereas nothing of the sort exists in the cabal that makes the decisions on Commission appointments. With no Citizen input & absolutely no need to be responsive/representative once 'in office' these officials wield enormous 'undemocratically' attained authority & power.
Therefore no EU 'political' structure and still less any EU 'Budget' can stand serious scrutiny as being arranged with the approval/consent of the EU Citizens.
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397. At 5:44pm on 20 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Meerkat, you are indeed amusing:
"""This just in from Greece's stauchest ally:
[according to you know who]"""
According to me Russia is ally of none. It minds its own business and countries around it are interchangeably friendly or less friendly. Greece is a good opportunity for Russia to expand influence, but it has to at least secure either Turkey or Bulgaria with the most obvious answer the second. Ideally the job of Greece and Bulgaria could be done by Turkey that makes the link of Black Sea and Eastern Mediterranean but there more than one factors that state that any such approach will be short lived. There are foundational factors that bind Turkey either it wants it or not to the anglosaxonic side.
"""Russia will invest US $800m (£527m) into a new spaceport in the country's Far East, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has announced."""
Good news for te whole of the space industry.
"""The move is meant to ease the dependence on the Baikonur launch site in Kazakhstan, built during the Soviet-era."""
Let us not forget that Baikonur is the oldest (and I think largest) space center in the world, built in an era where spatial applications where of strictly military nature. It was long expected that Russians would develop, smaller, more specialised space accesses dedicated to civilian or military use.
"""The future cosmodrome will be built near the town of Uglegorsk in the Far Eastern Amur region, close to the border with China.(BBC News)"""
Good. PRC can sure use a new free spaceport.
[once it gets Manchuria back]
ahhaha!
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#383 - powermeerkat
"Glad to hear Milcho is alive and well"
Astonished more like. Taneyev (you do mean Sergei Ivanovich Taneyev?)died in 1915. Which means (unless he was studying composition at the age of 4) that Milcho (whoever he is) is 120 years old if he is a day. Can't find any reference to my old mate Sergei having ever been to Sofia either.
Give me a break. If you must name drop, have the grace to be plausible will you?
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#399 CBW
Do you really think I should make your research? I desist from going more into this - but it shall be interesting to follow the life of the budget.
It is beyond me to comprehend your account, just as it is to comprehend how you are able to ignore the economic-political structure and the layers it consists of.
One day you should consider this matter:
What is the factual political legitimacy of the EU, the single most important market and political structure in Europe?
Not your opinion on what the legitimacy is or what you think it ought to be, but what it actually is in the world of political realities,
What is the legitimacy of the EU, the commission and the parliament included, in relation to member states and their constitutions?
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#379. At 3:27pm on 20 Jul 2010, Bora,
I can understand your confusion, please NIK restrain your posts to no more than a few paragraphs, if you can't then don't post, as I'm getting fed up of having to skip past thousands of words of uninteresting diatribe and personal opinion based on past historical events that are at best mere conjecture and at worst pure invention. If you have something to say and expect us to read it be concise and most importantly accurate and honest.
Thanks.
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" Milcho, whoever he is"
If you don't know who Milcho Leviev is, go at least to Wikipedia.
[ his prof. was indeed Pancho Vladigerov, not Taneyev]
Too bad you seemed not even know who Boulez, Cage, Riley, Stockhausen and Webern were, either.
[some of the most seminal composers of the XX century]
Let alone than their 'decadent' and "formalistic' music was completely banned in USSR.
And if Sergei (died in 1915) was indeed your "old mate"
I must look you up in the Guinees Book of Records, in the "Longevity" chapter.
[Out of respect for old age I won't comment on that embarrasing bit about Yasha Heifetz]
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#404. At 8:23pm on 20 Jul 2010, powermeerkat
This is getting so pointless.
I know exactly who these people are without having to look any of them up - and believe me I didn't. I simply could not be bothered to progress this any further.
Nothing in your 404 persuades me otherwise - especially your failure to grasp the intended irony of the 'old mate' remark.
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"I know exactly who these people are without having to look any of them up"
Sure, sure. Like you 'knew exactly' that Heifetz was a Lithuanian. :)))
So, per analogiam, Horowitz and Stern were... Ukrainians?
And Temianka - Scottish? :-)
Forget Richter.
Tell me something about Riley.
[shouldn't be any 'bother', since you know exactly who he is, right?]
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Greece should promote the country to tech industry. International companies could build plants there to enhance national revenue. The move will reduce unemployment and inflation. Tax revenues develop from a moderate corporate tax and personal income taxes of the employed.
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#406 - powermeerkat
Riley, Terry - can't tell you dates without looking them up. Mid and late 20th century American composer in the minimalist school crossing over with elements of rock. Probably (hopefully) still with us. Can't do much better than that as I am not a big fan.
And I would forget Richter if I were you because he remained a Soviet citizen for the duration and never settled in the States. No did not look any of it up. Now go away and wind someone else up, there's a good chap.
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406 - powermeerkat
And while you are at it, why don't you tell all about Vainberg or Weinberg and why he emigrated from Poland to the USSR? Don' look it up now. You know all about Polish music don't you?
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Mathiasen
Re #402
Astounding and yet typical brushing aside of the Citizen by the 'pro-EU' supporter!
One day perhaps You would like to consider what is the 'Public legitimacy' of the EU, not Your opinion of it because some National Leaders chose to accept & promote it, but on the basis of where & when did the post-Maastricht EU ever gain the Approval & Consent of the Citizens since circa 1992?
".. world of political realities..": Is that the convenience store of Brussels' realities whereby any Public consultation must result in a 'Yes' to the EU policy & there is no need to seek the Approval or Consent of EU Citizens on wholesale 'Constitutional' changes just so long as the EU rolls on completely unchecked?
Kindly take a long, hard look at how far divorced from the Citizen is the EU Commission & Parliament if the only measure of its 'legitimacy' hangs on the vested interests of National Leadership who have shared the new authorities & powers of a supra-National body amongst them and have no intention of ever submitting that authority & power to Citizen consent via Direct Ballot box tests!?
IMO though You err on the side of politeness & restrained comment You are as anti-Democratic as the rest of those who support an institution that has not had Public approval for 2 decades on any significant policy-development in any field of its evolution.
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CBW, if must insist on haranguing Nik with a tiresome and relentless cacophony of abuse, could you please improve the quality of your writing.
The blog has become offensively polluted with your nasty invectives, to the point where all reasonable comments are degraded by mere association with your entries.
If you must be hostile and abusive, please limit yourself as best you can.
Nik may have faults, as we all do, but at least he consistently tries to post honest content. His posts are not offered to inflate his own ego at the expense of degrading others with childish tirades of hateful abuse.
You inability to constrain your pervasive hostility and bullying nature are dragging the forum down, and it is becoming exceedingly boring to participate.
Please evaluate your own contributions, and take an objective look at how others might react to the constant stream of abuse.
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#410. At 11:14pm on 20 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work
CBW - it is a very boring subject, and you are repeating what you - and a number of other contributors - have argued here many, many times.
Consider this: The EU system is making decisions every day with consequences for the member states each and every day, and in November the system will pass a budget for 2011.
It is likely to raise some expenses, and Germany will contribute 25 billions. This expense will be endorsed by the vast majority in the parliament of the Federal Republic. It is taxpayers’ money.
It is a legitimate system.
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The USSR system was making decisions every day with consequences for the member states each and every day, and in November the system passed a budget for 1989.
It was likely to raise some expenses, and Russia will contribute 25 billions. This expense was endorsed by the vast majority in the parliament of the Federal Republic. It is taxpayers’ money.
It is a legitimate system.
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#413 Democracythreat
There are too many repetitions here, but I have avoided to repeat a couple of fundamental things, I supposed everybody were aware of in any case.
I don't even bother to go into the reductions you are making here.
Google "Copenhagen criteria".
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"And I would forget Richter"?
Why? 'cause he was a Volga German and not exactly hetero?
BTW. Blake, Burgess, Howard, McLean and Philby have also emigrated TO USSR. If it makes you feel better.
With Philby even made a Hero of the Soviet Union. And getting his own stamp.
Now, it this music to your ears?
P.S. Say hello to Sergey when you meet him.
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Re #408
Nice try, but no cigar.
Vainberg (a mediocre epigone) whose Jewish family hailed from Moldova had nothing to do with Polish music, and was about as much a Polish composer as Isaac Bashevis Singer was a Polish writer: which is not at all.
Accidental place of someone's birth and childhood is irrelevant to anything.
Otherwise Menachem Begin and Shimon Peres would be 'famous Polish political leaders'
And Joseph Conrad - 'a famous Polish writer'
Now, about that legendary Lithuanian violin virtuoso you've mentioned but no Lithuanian ever heard of.... :)))
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At 3:27pm on 20 Jul 2010|(number 379), Bora wrote:
"What am I missing? How can I be so daft as to not understand what bosphorus has to do with greece's 350 billion euro debt? Can someone other than Nik explain? (since I have difficulty in understanding him)
What does cold war have to do with current greek economy? I mean when the iron curtain fell, wasn't greek economy better than what it is now? Or did they have more than 350 billion euro debt at the time? I just can't understand Nik's posts..Somebody help!!"
Bora, it is not what you are missing, but what is missing in Mr NIK. You know, manners, logic, openness to new information, etc. You are not daft, but it is possible he might be. And everyone has difficulty understanding him, because unless you share the same paranoid worldview and the same monomaniacal obsession that everyone in the world is planning to screw Greece(why bother, they are so good at doing it to themselves), it is impossible to know where he is coming from. His mentality is that of a Greek "Ulkucu", just change "Turkey" for "Greece". Or listen to Deniz Baykal when he talks about the CIA spying on him in the toilet. It is the same mindset; everything that happens to us is caused by sinister outside plotters. Which of course means that "we" are never responsible for anything that happens to us. It is always "their fault".
Best ignore him, like any other misfortunate touched by God, genetic misfortune or childhood trauma.
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Re #411
Ah, the fulminations of the Swiss sage:This time it is concern for our Greek contributor - - is that a 3rd friend You seek, along with MAscaridII 6 the grumpy Scots lass!?
For one who does little else but harangue everyone on here about Your unlimited & unsustained philosophical opinions on all & sundry in an ever failing attempt at the 'eminence grise' prize it is beholden upon You to look to Your own contributions.
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Mathiasen
Re #412
Ah yes!
I'm well used to reading on here that 'Democracy' is a "..boring.." topic for the 'pro-EU'.
It would have to be because there is almost none in the EU and therefore discussions are always an embarrassment for the entity's supporters.
Similarly with Your political 'legitimacy': 80+% of Germany's Citizens may take part in National Elections & fewer than 50% in EP Elections. You argue the former has the Citizen Mandate for its disposal of Tax-payer Monies and I agree.
However, I argue the EU & EP have no such Citizen Mandate for their EU Policies' to dispose of any National Tax-Revenues granted to its institutions.
Why else do You suppose the EU has failed year-after-year to go to its Constituent Citizens for their support on policy, e.g. Lisbon Treaty? How else do You suppose a Commission President Msr Barroso could proclaim a 43% Voter Turnout for the EP was a '..clear success..' for the EU!?
Citizens: Yes, the 'boring' 500,000,000 details of Democracy!
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@404 Powermeerkat
I thank you for having mentioned both Milcho Leviev (jazz performer and composer) and his proff. in classic music Pancho Vladigueroff (one of our worldwide known composers and close friend of Herbert von Karajan).
Shall revert very soon for more detailed comment on the prohibitions, prosecutions and restrictions in regards with the intellectuals in Bulgaria under the previous regime. It’s a very large and important issue which is to be discussed until the mentality of the people here will be totally improved. A nation without spiritual leaders is doomed to disappear. That is what was going to happen in Bulgaria in the second half of the last century. Fortunately enough, same very brave, highly educated and responsible people, kind of Gueorguy Markov, Lyudmilla Zhivkova (the daughter of the communist leader Todor Zhivkov !?), the dissident philosopher Zhelyu Zheleff, the writers Pavel Vezhinoff and Blaga Dimitrova, the journalists Gueorguy Tamboueff (correspondant of the communist party journal “Rabotnitshesko Delo” !?), Doncho Tzontsheff, and others, had the courage to counteract the process of dismantling the nation, by repeating the bitter truths about our spiritual decline. Some (like Markoff) perished, others like Tzontsheff were moved out of the capital; others were fired from their jobs, prosecuted, etc. However, the positive result came a little bit later (not like in Poland). The youngsters here do not differ much from the youngsters in Warsaw, Prague, Budapest, Bratislava, etc. They have the mentality of Europeans and the privilege and the freedom of taking full advantage of the integration process in Central/Eastern Europe. They are quite different people compared to the shy and disciplined people of my generation… (some of them still fear the authorities! The souvenirs of the past are still alive!).
Shall revert soon, and shall be glad to chat with you on the Russian-Polish Smolenks’ blog. Of course, I avail myself of the opportunity to invite also THRENODIO, NIK, MARCUSAURELIUS_II, COOL_BRUSH_WORK and all those who deem it useful to poke their nose into the Russian/Polish kitchen, to join me there. I was invited by Alice to visit the blog last April. It’s interesting to see how the Poles and the Russians would comment the Smolensk tragedy, the Katyn slaughter, the military conflicts of the 20s , etc. I must say, that both sides proved to be very well informed and good intended when discussing all those sensible issues… Something positive is going to happen in the relationship between the two great slavic nations…or maybe I am still confused by the flow of the last events… Shall wait and see. The Russian/Polish saga seems to be in the core of many troubles in the East-West relations.
Regards
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MacTurk
Re #417
Well written explanation of the difficulties of debate with the Greek.
On previous Blog topics I have tried several times to engage the mad-Greek in discussion of topics that we share interest in, but he is forever launching into diatribes of unsubstantiated plots by the British & Americans. As a result the content is near impossible to follow or grasp key-points as nothing is sustained except the thread-line, everything is the "..fault.." of some maniacal anti-Greek cabal of unseen entities.
It is like trying to wade through a tank of treacle in search of a pot of jam with no guarantee the pot was ever there in the first place!
Some, like DemocThreat (see #411), will now try to find common cause with him.
It is a natural progression because in essence much of the sage of Switzerland's stuff relies heavily on the innuendo of hidden-extra machievellian powers behind well known aspects of the National & International political-cultural scene, e.g. the Aristocracy, the Weapons Manufacturers, the Church etc.
As if none of us had the intellect to realise these are important & influential areas of the way the World works! Obviously the leaders of such things a have a lot of clout, however, the mad-Greek & DemocThreat line of it is all a 'conspiracy' against the common people is a well-worn and fruitless exercise in 'them & us'.
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@416 Powermeerkat
"And Joseph Conrad - 'a famous Polish writer' "
I have served 19 years in the Navy/Commercial fleet and finished my maritime saga as a chief mate of mershantman. Joseph Kondratovitsh (he's known here under that name) was for all those years my favourate author. He's not only a famous man of letters. He's wordlwide known master of the short novels and of the short stories dedicated to the sea workers. At times, I still wonder how he managed to combine the hard work of a captain's mate with that of a writer. I thank you once again for having mentioned his name.
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417. At 08:52am on 21 Jul 2010, MacTurk wrote:
“””Bora, it is not what you are missing, but what is missing in Mr NIK. You know, manners, logic, openness to new information, etc.”””
Manners? How about MacTurk manners?
“””You are not daft, but it is possible he might be.”””
Oh! Some MacTurk manners there!
“””371. At 2:53pm on 20 Jul 2010, MacTurk wrote:
Judging by the number and length of the postings, Mr Nik is either unemployed and lives in his bedroom, sweating over a hot keyboard, or "he" is a committee of ultra-nationalistic Greeks. The paranoia!”””
And there! Excellent manners MacTurk.
“””And everyone has difficulty understanding him, because unless you share the same paranoid worldview and the same monomaniacal obsession that everyone in the world is planning to screw Greece”””
Other manners there – and what choice of verbs: “screw”, “monomaniacal”, “obsession“
“””Best ignore him, like any other misfortunate touched by God, genetic misfortune or childhood trauma.”””
Another excellent example of MacTurk manners
------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, what strikes is the complete absence of presenting even a single point. A single point! If you unable to do so, if you are completely incompetent in conducting even a basic discussion, what you do? Attack the person, not the idea. Trow mud in the water. Swear. It is for free, you won't be charged. One has to note that you are not a Turk, but someone who lived there for some time, still you do not do the country a lot of advertishment. Hearing you is like hearing the Turkish judge condamning a journalist to 5 years prison for "insulting Turkishness" not to mention icons of Harnt Dink on the streets. You are amusingly a later-half but pre-internetic 20th-century propagandist.
Nontheless, just to keep taking note of it: I am still expecting an answer on every single point I presented above. 12 miles? Southstream?
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@421 CBW
"Some, like DemocThreat (see #411), will now try to find common cause with him.
It is a natural progression because in essence much of the sage of Switzerland's stuff relies heavily on the innuendo of hidden-extra machievellian powers behind well known aspects of the National & International political-cultural scene, e.g. the Aristocracy, the Weapons Manufacturers, the Church etc."
Threnodio_II is not the only fellow blogger here who assesses the complex Greek saga from another angle. I have personally much sympathy for Nik, and I am positively inclined to trust him over the potential risks the present Turkish, pro-Islamic leadership could present not only to the neighbour countries, but also to the mere existence of the EU if Turkey is ever allowed to join it.
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Re #420 generalissimo_franco wrote:
@404 Powermeerkat
I thank you for having mentioned both Milcho Leviev (jazz performer and composer) and his proff. in classic music Pancho Vladigueroff (one of our worldwide known composers and close friend of Herbert von Karajan).
There's nothing to thank me for: honor to whom honor is due.
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421. At 09:30am on 21 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
MacTurk
Re #417
"""Well written explanation of the difficulties of debate with the Greek."""
CBW, are you testing your self in diving or something? Reaching the bottom? There is no bottom you know.
"""On previous Blog topics I have tried several times to engage the mad-Greek in discussion of topics that we share interest in"""
This is a lie. You did not try to engage in a sincere discussion with me. You once pressured me to provide you full details on some of my sayings despite my prediction that I would spend time to analyse in depth the case providing all the details you wanted and that you would then avoid completely discussing over them. What happened? You refused to discuss on even 1 single point of my sayings dismissing briefly with the usual "mad" accusation and then you abandoned the discussion.
""", but he is forever launching into diatribes of unsubstantiated plots by the British & Americans."""
You call plots what I call plans. What difference makes a word?
"""As a result the content is near impossible to follow or grasp key-points as nothing is sustained except the thread-line, everything is the "..fault.." of some maniacal anti-Greek cabal of unseen entities."""
Do not play the naif. The fact that I know in better details my history than the history of Malawi, Burma or Kongo is something that should be considered natural. The fact that I know better my history does not mean that what happens in it is unique and does not happen in other places in the world. The fact that you are not able to follow up only reveals that inability of yours to follow a geopolitical discussion. What the fox canot reach, it calls them sour, you know.
"""It is like trying to wade through a tank of treacle in search of a pot of jam with no guarantee the pot was ever there in the first place!"""
You can pass over and change the discussion. Why so much hatred and why all these personal accusations?
"""Some, like DemocThreat (see #411), will now try to find common cause with him."""
No he does not. DT specialises in other fields of knowledge. While he might be very knowledgeable in it too, he is not that interested in geopolitics as in international finance and politics. My hobby is geopolitics, not so much finance. DT is not so often in accordance with me as you might think, yet if he has a different opinion he states it in the most appropriate and helpful for the discussion manner. And though I read his texts with high interest, I am not always in accordance with him and I try to do the same. He is an excellent blogger.
"""It is a natural progression because in essence much of the sage of Switzerland's stuff relies heavily on the innuendo of hidden-extra machievellian powers behind well known aspects of the National & International political-cultural scene, e.g. the Aristocracy, the Weapons Manufacturers, the Church etc."""
CBW, you have to understand that there is nothing particularly negative in the word "conspiracy". You know the world does not move with elections, governments and prime ministerial announcements. If you are a banker and me a minister and I call you on the phone to pass you an information so that you do an appropriate decision and that procedure not being announced in the public, there you have a conspiracy. That is how it goes. Try to see certain things under that angle.
"""As if none of us had the intellect to realise these are important & influential areas of the way the World works! Obviously the leaders of such things a have a lot of clout, however, the mad-Greek & DemocThreat line of it is all a 'conspiracy' against the common people is a well-worn and fruitless exercise in 'them & us'."""
It seems that someone told you that the word "conspiracy" is the equivalent of "racism", "fascist", "anarchist" etc. Throw it in any discussion to delegitimise the one you see as your opponent. Won't work like that.
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And here's some other news on BBC: Where euros go
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036096.stm
Does anyone else see what's wrong with the picture, in the chart to the right? And now click on "Crime&Border control", such a clear contradiction to what Nik's been saying for months about greece's expenditures on border control against the agressive eastern islamic nation...i guess this removes the agressive eastern islamic country out of suspects list for greek bankruptcy now?
The total expenditure is also surprising (shouldn't be!) where Poland with more than 3 times the population of greece getting less overall.
Can greece escape defaulting?...or can EU escape defaulting?
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gf "A nation without spiritual leaders is doomed to disappear."
So is a nation whose intelligentsia has been intentionally annihilated.
What certain poster whose name I won't even mention does not seem to understand (although I think he does, but a denial suits him better) is that Katyn was not about murdering some 26 thousands of "men in uniform".
It was about intentional killing of thousands of Polish RESERVE officers who in their civilian lives were scientists, engineers, university professors, physicians, teachers, etc.
[the decapitated rest was to become simply a slave labour].
And Katyn is merely a symbol of other similar of other less known atrocities.
Soviets did almost exactly the same 15 years later to Hungarians: after drowning in blood Hungarian Uprising in 1956.
Thousands of Hungarian intellectuals were killed; the rest escaped to other sypathetic countries: Canada, France, Poland, U.S....
Enriching science, industry and culture of those countries, but not of their motherland. :(
My Hungarian friends tell me that's only then (1956) when indommitable Hugarian spirit has been finally broken.
I won't even go into massive emigration of Czech intellectuals and intelligentsia to the West after 1968 Soviet invasion.
Czechs were luckier than Hungarians though; Austrians let basically all of them cross the border and find freedom in the West.
[I guess many of them still remembering what Soviet post-war occupation of their own contry was like]
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#422 gf re Joseph Conrad (b. Józef Konrad Korzeniowski)
It amused me more than a little when many moons ago I found this H.G. Wells' comment:
"He [Conrad] enriched English language immensely although he could never tell a proper difference between 'shall' and 'will'" :)))
[Oh, where is the Coloured Future of yesteryear?! - to paraphrase Fransois Villon]
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#420 - generalissimo_franco
"Of course, I avail myself of the opportunity to invite also THRENODIO, NIK, MARCUSAURELIUS_II, COOL_BRUSH_WORK and all those who deem it useful to poke their nose into the Russian/Polish kitchen, to join me there".
Oh come off it. Firstly, I have confined my remarks to music and secondly, I was not seeking to score political points. The meerkat has gone out of his way to provoke me and, to my shame, I rose to it for a while. But i am not playing his silly game any more. I have a life of sorts to live.
But "poking my nose in"? Whatever happened to the art belongs to everyone and international solidarity a few posts back?
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@428 Powermeerkat
I agree. However, I should just remind you that the Russian intelligentsia and the Russian dissidents were the first ones to endure the terror, the deportations and all that long succession of crimes perpetrated against the elite of the Russian nation by the Bolshevik/Soviet authorities... There are clear evidences that that entire horrible saga concerns millions of innocents.
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426. At 10:14am on 21 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"Do not play the naif. The fact that I know in better details my history than the history of Malawi, Burma or Kongo is something that should be considered natural. The fact that I know better my history does not mean that what happens in it is unique and does not happen in other places in the world."
------------------------------------------------------------
Translation: I know the details of my history, what happens is not unique and it happens in other places, therefore I naturally know history of other places.
Such a play on words..
Oh, and you claiming that you had cyclops living in YOUR country 2000 years ago doesn't make you a historian, or other people "naif".
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CBW,
Re: 385
The point of my post was to suggest that before we try to sort out the EU, we need to sort out our own backyard. You are right that the British anachronistic class system, which is still alive and well, is not an argument for staying in the EU, and I did not suggest it was. However, it is also not a good alternative to leaving the EU.
You talk about corruption within the EU as a reason for disbanding it. However, should we not try to sort out our own corruption first, which is becoming well know far and wide? Need I remind you of the expenses scandal, of BAE Systems bribing Saudi officials in order to ensure weapons deals, or the very recent calls for enquiry in the case of BP executives lobbing for the release of a convicted terrorist, in order to get lucrative deals with Libya? And how about starting wars on dodgy dossiers, in the face of public opinion and without public support? All of the that is hardly an argument to justify the present British political and social establishment over the EU one.
I believe that this has been mentioned before on this blog, the fact that EU-phobes do not whish the EU to be reformed for the better, but desire its full destruction. All the criticism, all the arguments, they always seem to lead to that conclusion. Your mentioning of all the problems within the EU would have had a much better purpose if it was aimed at sorting those problems out and if it was accompanied by your opinion of how this could be achieved. Instead, your opinions always seem to be on the lines of ‘get rid of the EU, go back to Britain’ as if Britain is some sort of promised land, with rivers of milk and honey.
You say that I all European countries the aristocracy has the same privileges as in Britain. That indeed may be the case, however what I want to point out is that we live and Britain and it is the British social class divided society that applies to us. If for you the number of debates in the EU Parliament is more important than the state of repair of your child’s school, then by any means continue with your self-righteous crusade against the evil EU. However, for me and for very many people, the fact that billions of our money are spent not reconstruction of schools at home but on destruction/ reconstruction of Iraq and Afghanistan is a the thing that matters. And you would no doubt agree that the cause of this is not the EU. So, before we go to sorting out the EU, can we put the things in order at home first?
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@429 Powermeerkat
Many Brits still consider him to be English.
"Qui beauté eut trop plus qu'humaine ?
Mais où sont les neiges d'antan?"
(fr. "Whose beauty was more than human?
Oh, where is last year’s snow?")
Oh, I agree. You seem to have my age. I am 62.
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When you get to 12th mile of our territorial waters your're already in Ephesus Library".
"If this is Cyprus, we are already in Syria, not in EU. Look at the map!"
"What is this called? FYROM kebab.
- But where is it from?
-FYROM!"
"Ataturk was Greek, for he was born in Thessaloniki"
"Yeah, but Santa Claus/St. Nicholas was Turkish: he was from Demre"
"Orhpeus was Bulgarian: he hailed from Rodopy Mountains"
"Dracula was Romanian.
-No, his castle was already half in Hungary!"
[sorry, just couldn't help myself]
Some years ago USAF Thunderbirds flew to Mons for an air demo.
One of the pilots reporting later:
"During a familiarization flight we've barely managed to turn off our afterburners when some air-controller got in our headphones saying:
'unidentified aircraft, you've just violated GeHman air space!'. "
(guys trained in air spaces of Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas simply couldn't believe their ears]
NATO Hdqts had to ask air traffic control centers (uncoordinated all) in countries adjacent to Belgium to shut up between ... and ... Zulu, so that not to distract Thunderbirds during the show.
BTW. There's STILL no coordination among dozens of air traffic control centers of EU member states in overcrowded European air space.
Although it sometimes results in deadly collisions.
So much for an integration within European DisUnion.
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@430 Threnodio_II
"Oh come off it. Firstly, I have confined my remarks to music and secondly, I was not seeking to score political points. The meerkat has gone out of his way to provoke me and, to my shame, I rose to it for a while. But i am not playing his silly game any more. I have a life of sorts to live.
But "poking my nose in"? Whatever happened to the art belongs to everyone and international solidarity a few posts back?"
I am really sorry to have somehow intervened in other people's chatting. I guess there is some kind of confusion in the discussions concerning art achievements (that I really appreciate both in your and in Powermeerkat's comments) and other, more delicate, more specific political comments concerning the communiste past of the Eastern European countries.
Once again, I appologise for having mentionned your name.
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427. At 10:34am on 21 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
"""And here's some other news on BBC: Where euros go
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036096.stm"""
If you thought you found something to say, check first Gavin's unsuccessfully titled """Blame it on the Germans""" thread in the March 2010 archive: we have discussed it in details already:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/03/blame_it_on_the_germans.html
Read carefully what I wrote mes.210 & 213.
Needless to say that there were not really many people (= none) that made any significant effort to counter-attack my arguments based on the very BBC site you try to use in vain. See it for yourself.
"""Does anyone else see what's wrong with the picture, in the chart to the right? And now click on "Crime&Border control", such a clear contradiction to what Nik's been saying for months about greece's expenditures on border control against the agressive eastern islamic nation...i guess this removes the agressive eastern islamic country out of suspects list for greek bankruptcy now?"""
Crime & border control money normally would be dependent not on country size or economy but on border size and Greece due to its geography and location has enormous borders and enormous needs. But this is not represented: these are simply money given a title but they are wasted elsewhere. A country like Germany would add them in their defense budget so that they present to their people they have a reduced defense budget. So does in the chart, does the fact that Danemark that took relatively (to size of borders and location) more money for crime & border control than Greece means that Danemark is threatened by the entry of huge quantities of poor & desttitute Norwegians, Swedish and Germans maybe? Your argument simply does not stand.
Bora, is that really your anxiety and that is what you are here? Bad reputation of Turkey as spread by us Greeks? Well do something about it: stop threatening us with war, keep your airplanes and ships in your airspace and your waters and stop the 100,000s of illegal immigrants that cross the several 1000s of km of your elongated country before they drop themselves in the Aegean and cry out at us to save them. Then you will have less bad publicity. Stop trying to call Slavic and gipsy muslims Turks and stop bribing with huge sumes the minorities so they call themselves Turks and you will have less bad publicity. Retire your army from Cyprus, retire your emmigrants that stole the houses of people and give people their houses back and then you will start getting a better reputation.
Are the above so difficult for you to comprehend? I am sure in your country they tell you nothing of all the above and you are not even aware, well now that you are here, hear some of them and try to understand why your neighbours find you aggressive. And your aggressiveness has dire implications on all levels including finance (but that is a complex issue you cannot comprehend and end up thinking we accuse Turkey, Britain or US just like that - which is far from the reality of course - and thus you fail to see how the set of interests and the various plots on the geopolitics on the area are set and how they influence countries on all levels).
Undesrtand that. I am not here to give bad publicity. I talk on geopolitics as in relation to politics and finance. If I talk on economics I will do include the Southstream and the 12-miles and thus your country is automatically in the picture. I said your country. Not you as Bora. And that is how it goes. From there on, what you do in your country is your own problem, you have killed or kicked out in the most horrible manner every single Greek living there in the last 100 years, there is nothing for us in your country to care about, Greeks are just happy to have nothing to do with Turks. Unlike other Europeans that place other pretexts such as lack of human rights in Turkey, and while I do not condone such acts, I really do not care much if you do not respect basic human rights of Turkish citizens or if you napalm-bomb Kurdish villages in Turkey. These are your issues, not mine.
The issue is not Turkey's image here for which you care so much. This is a European forum on EU matters which obviously are not of your direct concern, though you are welcome as an outsider to pass your opinion and we have open ears to hear it. I do see that you are also willing at least to do the same - even if you are not in position to understand my positions either due to lack of knowledge either due to aversion of hearing negative stuff about your country.
"""Can greece escape defaulting?...or can EU escape defaulting?"""
What you do not understand Bora is that this has nothing to do with the economics you learnt at school. Greece can default tomorrow and Greece can bounce back tomorrow at a click of a finger. It does not depend on the country but on decisions that are taken elsewhere. I have already discussed on it, I have already presented tons of information, do not make me continue referring you to my past texts.
PS1: Just to show you how discussion goes on - I see that you (and none else) did not try to answer my response to you over Lauzanne, the 12 miles or Southstream. I do not ask you, I advice you leave the discussion unless really you want to know more details of your country's aggressive actions in post 1920s era.
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Re #431 True.
That's why it's to difficult for an outsider to understand why so many Russians still cherish Stalin and even build new monuments for him.
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432. At 11:27am on 21 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
""""
426. At 10:14am on 21 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"Do not play the naif. The fact that I know in better details my history than the history of Malawi, Burma or Kongo is something that should be considered natural. The fact that I know better my history does not mean that what happens in it is unique and does not happen in other places in the world."
------------------------------------------------------------
Translation: I know the details of my history, what happens is not unique and it happens in other places, therefore I naturally know history of other places.
Such a play on words..""""
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You are either mistakenly or deliberately mistranslating: I answered to accusations that I present a picture were "everyone is evil and everyone is attacking my country" by saying that I naturally know the history of my country and that such events occur to other nations too, we are not any lone example in that, the world if full of such examples. I know history of other places without claiming to be a specialist there too so I let other people talk on them.
Do not distort what I say.
"""Oh, and you claiming that you had cyclops living in YOUR country 2000 years ago doesn't make you a historian, or other people "naif"."""
Nice example for the impressions - but I really did not see you having any objections to any event I have mentioned. Nor did I see you continuing commenting on the Lauzanne treaty, 12-miles and Southstream.
However what I do find positive with you Bora is that despite your (I make a guess here) young age, you try to keep off personal attacks that the much older CBW (who should know better) cannot keep off.
PS: Isn't it consuming having such a discussion? Why don't just remain on the points?
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Re #426
Okay, Nik, disregarding my resolution yesterday I will try just this one last time to explain where it is I believe You are going wrong on these Blogs.
'raciscist', 'fascist', 'anarchist'....
Nowhere do I use these terms about You: On the other hand almost every one of Your contributions is liberally sprinkled with such wholly unsubstantiated & near meaningless allegations about entire Nations, the Secret Services, particular interest groups etc.
Still, You are correct, I do denigrate much that You write: It is because after awhile I came to realise it did not matter what the topic You see only unfairly treated Greece by a conspiracy that is IMO, all in Your head.
Contrary to your claim, on a number of occasions early to mid-2009, I did try to debate/discuss with You on topics: However, I repeat You never once managed to sustain any clear consequential argument without descending into 'conspiracy' theories in which You had nothing but supposition & innuendo to back-up the most incredible versions of events.
Your style led to frustration, annoyance and in the end outright derision by myself & others.
E.g. even in #426 You write about Your "..geo-political" knowledge, but it is clear to almost all of us that You have a limited, single-perspective on each issue that denies any opportunity of a free exchange of views. IMO You do not have views You have immense imagination backed by spurious leninist-marxist analysis that bears no relation to the real World.
Yes, of course, there are 'conspiracies', but for You to in the same line mention rascism, fascism etc. as though in some dialetic argument with Trotsky etc. just baffles & thwarts those of us who do not have Your peculiarly mad-greek view. Thus Your example of Banker & Minister in telephone discussion can equally be seen as 'negotiation', 'research & sounding out of opinions', 'seeking compromise' and I DO see all those perspectives but You see only one - - the menacing conspiracy - - whereas, the World really does turn by People (from top-dogs, to me, the also-ran) approachig each other & querying 'if I do this, what will he/she/they do in return/response/reaction?
That isn't 'conspiracy' that is Human inter-action: Surely You have noticed it in Your own family at some time, e.g. If Mum lets me stay up to watch the late-night tv film I'll promise to get my Homework done before tea-time! Dad comes in & asks, why are You watching this film? Is this a 'conspiracy' with Your mother, or is it People getting on with life!?
I leave You to figure that one out and to extrapolate it to how the more important things in life are dealt with almost all of the time by people.
I wish in all honesty I could offer You some semblance of respect for Your views but I cannot: You have as much right as me or anyone to propound whatever You want, however, also just like me, no one has to take You or I or any contributor seriously - - in all honesty, I don't know anyone (& that inc. the sage of the Swiss, most times), who does give You that basic credence!
That's it: There is no more ways for me to address this issue with You as I have tried them all & none made any impression upon You - - which is entirely Your right - - however, it makes further contact a pointless exercise for us both.
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435. At 11:57am on 21 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"""When you get to 12th mile of our territorial waters your're already in Ephesus Library"."""
Did you read this in any international sea law treaty defining national waters really?
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#436 - generalissimo_franco
Don't worry about it. 'I know more about music than you do' stand off was getting stupid anyway.
Our earlier discussion about Soviet involvement in Eastern Europe continues to be interesting. Obviously as someone living in Hungary, my perception will be different from yours. There is no commonality of language or through Orthodoxy so the conventional wisdom was that it was oppressive occupation pure and simple. Actually, it isn't as simple as that. Of course it is deeply unfashionable to mention it now but Hungary had its fair share of die-hard doctrinaire communists who welcomed the intervention as a method of reestablishing their ascendancy and active collaboration was widespread. A considerable amount of the blood in 'blood soaked' Hungary was shed by Hungarians themselves. 12 years earlier, there were Hungarian facists who were willing to do the same with the Nazis. The deportantions did not happen all on their own.
But I have said to you before and repeat now. Russians and Soviets are not the same thing any more than Nazis and Germans are. We have moved on. A younger generation remembers a dignified and peaceful withdrawal in 1991. There is no need to harbor resentment. We should never forget the lessons of history but to use them as the building blocks of future prejudice is puerile and futile.
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Powermeerkat
"Many Brits still consider him to be English."
Francois Villon? :)
[He's real name is uncertain: could of course be Frank Villain,
but shortened perhaps from original Franciszek Wilanowski.
jail wardens didn't keep computerized records at the time]
More seriously: JK WAS a great ENGLISH writer.
Just like Gershwin was a great AMERICAN composer.
And Ravel (a Basque) a great FRENCH composer.
And Ionesco (a Romanian) - a great FRENCH playright.
And Gaudi (a Catalan) - a great SPANISH architect.
Miro...etc., etc.
Beckett (Samuel, that is), now, that's an interesting story:
A quintessential Irishman writing his novels in English, but his plays - in French.
[perhaps his family's alleged French Huguenot roots...]
Roman Polanski is another interesting case but for a different reason:
seems everybody wants a piece of him.
for a while even Switzerland... ;
[U.S. still does. :-)))]
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Bora
Where have all the euros gone....
When will there ever learn?
When will they ever learn.
[sorry, Marlena D.]
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. At 11:57am on 21 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"""When you get to 12th mile of our territorial waters your're already in Ephesus Library"."""
Did you read this in any international sea law treaty defining national waters really?
Its' called humor, HUMOR.
Would you like to borrow some?
It seems you needed it as much as euros, if not more.
People who can't laugh at themselves can be quite dangerous.
And if they ever get into a position of power they often turn out to be mass murderers.
Deadly serious stuff. With a stress on 'deadly'.
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@122. MarcusAureliusII
Perhaps under NHS he had indeed 3 months to live.
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And yes, I am in Greece for both work and vacation. No problem whatsoever, much safer than UK to go around at any time. Excellent weather, beaches, hotels, food. Have seen no riots, strikes did not affect me at the slightest. Business as usual. Of course people have less money to spend but who cares what the sun shines and the beach is next door.
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437. At 12:05pm on 21 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"Well do something about it: stop threatening us with war, keep your airplanes and ships in your airspace and your waters and stop the 100,000s of illegal immigrants that cross the several 1000s of km of your elongated country before they drop themselves in the Aegean and cry out at us to save them. Then you will have less bad publicity. Stop trying to call Slavic and gipsy muslims Turks and stop bribing with huge sumes the minorities so they call themselves Turks and you will have less bad publicity. Retire your army from Cyprus, retire your emmigrants that stole the houses of people and give people their houses back and then you will start getting a better reputation."
------------------------------------------------------------------
They "drop themselves in the Aegean"? Is it what your media tells you? Do you know how hard it is to stop illegal immigrants trying to sail boats to your islands when you have hundreds of those islands so close to our shores? Sure, easy to blame Turkey for the illegal immigrants. Do you know how your coast guards fire on those boats leaving the passangers to drown? Do you know how many afghani/pakistani/persian/iraqi/african people's corpses hit our shores because your coast guards throw them overboard? And I'd assume your media also tells you it's the horrible Turks sending them to you in droves right?
Here's some newsflash fo you, according to Amnesty International reports and US Department of State reports you have high trafficking of people to and from Greece, the immigrants live in worst conditions among all EU countries. Then there's detention and deportation of unaccompanied or separated immigrant minors including asylum seekers, detention of undocumented migrants in squalid conditions, limits on the ability of ethnic minority groups to self-identify, and discrimination against and social exclusion of ethnic minorities, particularly Roma, restrictions and administrative obstacles faced by members of non‑Orthodox religions, restrictions on freedom of speech etc. And these are all Turkey's doing as well, right?
Also, what's "slavic and gipsy muslim Turks"???? You really think we bribe people in greece to call themselves "Turks"?? Now your paranoia is getting certifiable. It is only relieving that not many people take what you say seriously.
There is no getting better reputation for Turks in Greece, you will always find some more blatant lies to either get what you want or bail out some crisis.
Oh and about Turkey threatening you with war, where can we read about this?
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447. At 2:01pm on 21 Jul 2010, vassilis wrote:
And yes, I am in Greece for both work and vacation. No problem whatsoever, much safer than UK to go around at any time. Excellent weather, beaches, hotels, food. Have seen no riots, strikes did not affect me at the slightest. Business as usual. Of course people have less money to spend but who cares what the sun shines and the beach is next door.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Many other countries have excellent weather, beaches, hotels, food as well...and tourists can actually fly back home after their vacations too.
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@443 Powermeerkat
"Miro...etc., etc."
I see the point. Huan Miro, certain Pablo Picasso are believed to be great FRENCH artists, etc.
I just wanted to avoid a misunderstanding between us, concerning Joseph Conrad. He's Pole of corse, but many people in the UK and here, in the East, still consider him as Englishman.
Of course, such confusion does not concern François Villon. He's a bloody French (at least for the time being).
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448. At 2:29pm on 21 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
"""They "drop themselves in the Aegean"?"""
No. You help them do so. There are 100,000s of them, they cross ALL your very much militarised and very much police-ised and very much muslim like them, and very much industrialised country with a developed economy and in constant need of ever cheeper hands, and they manage to arrive the other way, take the boats and drop themselves in the sea. When Greeks police arrests them you refuse to take them back and say that they fell from the sky.
Now do I need to remind you what Turgut Ozal had said in 1987? Do you need me to elaborate on what was his idea about all that?
"""Is it what your media tells you?"""
Poor Borat. Haven't you noticed that I am not based on what popular media presents? To answer your question, no that is not what the media presents.
"""Do you know how hard it is to stop illegal immigrants trying to sail boats to your islands when you have hundreds of those islands so close to our shores?"""
We did not ask you to stop them in the Aegean, you can't stop them in our space you see! We ask you to deal with the problem in your own lands, especially in your other borders. We ask you to receive them back when we arrest them in our borders with you.
Failure to do so means that you obviously have a specific agenda.
"""Sure, easy to blame Turkey for the illegal immigrants."""
I am not blaming just Turkey on this. At the end, it is US behind. Don't you ever have any doubt on that.
"""Do you know how your coast guards fire on those boats leaving the passangers to drown?"""
Can I ask? Is that what your media tells you?
"""And I'd assume your media also tells you it's the horrible Turks sending them to you in droves right?"""
No. They say nothing about it. Alternative media claims that it is a well set piece of US politics to create more rumble in the Balkans. Turkey is implicated only via the US paragon.
That the 100% of them are muslim shounis just like you are and that none of them is Shiite or Hindu or Bouddhist or Comfucianist despite such countries have also huge amounts of poverty and often war is quite indicating that there is a specific trend that reveals a specific plan. On the sides, this perfectly suits the politics of Turkey but lets not forget that behind all that it is the US State Dep.
You are too young to comprehend what is going on right under your nose. Don't listen to me, ask someone who is knowledgeable of these issues.
"""Here's some newsflash fo you, according to Amnesty International reports and US Department of State reports you have high trafficking of people to and from Greece, the immigrants live in worst conditions among all EU countries."""
Of course. Only that behind the traffickers are circles of interest rising up to the State Department. Don't just take this as a random accusation: despite the furious Soviet attack on Afganistan that ruined it, despite the furious war of Iraq-Iran that provoked huge catastrophes and poverty we saw not a single Afgan or Iraqi illegal immigrant. As soon as US soldiers set their foot there, we started receiving scores of them. Explain.
Now Amnesty is an American financed institution. What would you expect to say? Where they would throw the responsibility? On Bush or Ombama or something? Are you out of your mind?
"""Then there's detention and deportation of unaccompanied or separated immigrant minors including asylum seekers, detention of undocumented migrants in squalid conditions, limits on the ability of ethnic minority groups to self-identify, and discrimination against and social exclusion of ethnic minorities, particularly Roma, restrictions and administrative obstacles faced by members of non‑Orthodox religions, restrictions on freedom of speech etc."""
Nope. The only restrictions there are, are the fact that the 100% of these people are illegal immigrants that impose their presence on the country. Naturally they cannot have any demand on anything other their basic human right to remain alive and healthy which we provide despite our financial deficit. The European reports make speech only of the conditions of these people and attribute it not to Greece's responsibility but to circumstances and to the inability of Europe to take action (it is not easy to go against a US plan, saw it already in Jugoslavia).
"""And these are all Turkey's doing as well, right?"""
No. It is US/Europe's one. Despite huge wars, huge famines and despite cars, boats and airplanes existing up to 1990s, Greece had absolutely no illegal immigrants. In post 1990s we had the (US boys) Albanians and then a surge of 100% shouni muslims, no hindus, no bouddhists not even shiites.
Explain to me.
"""Also, what's "slavic and gipsy muslim Turks"???? You really think we bribe people in greece to call themselves "Turks"??"""
Yes. Why are you so naif? I come from north Greece and have roots in Thrace. I have worked along with Pomaks. I know who they are. I have see ethnic Turks too (they are a small minority inside the Pomak-Gipsy-Turk muslim religious minority). I know the Gipsies too. You can't miss the difference. Now don't you think I know a bit more of what is going on there? You do not even know where the village Ehinos falls and you come here to talk to me? Restrain a bit yourself please. I never claimed to now better Diyarbakir than you.
"""Now your paranoia is getting certifiable."""
You ignorance is getting legendary.
"""It is only relieving that not many people take what you say seriously."""
You mean CBW and powermeerkat and MacTurk. Why would anyone search being taken seriously by them?
"""There is no getting better reputation for Turks in Greece, you will always find some more blatant lies to either get what you want or bail out some crisis."""
Lie the one, lie the other, but at the end what is the only truth is this:
=> I saw you replying to absolutely none of my 100s of points I have presented above. You just keep saying something and then avoiding commenting it each time changing discussion to another topic...
"""Oh and about Turkey threatening you with war, where can we read about this?"""
I count only since the 1980s, Turgut Ozal, Demirel, Tansu Chiller, Abdoulah Gioul, Erdogan and a large number of ministers and high-profile politicians have all one thing in common: they repeated again and again that enforcement of international law on Aegean (i.e. 12-mile) is for Turkey a reason for war against Greece.
449. At 2:33pm on 21 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
"""Many other countries have excellent weather, beaches, hotels, food as well...and tourists can actually fly back home after their vacations too."""
In other countries you go for the sun and beaches and then you want to get out.
Once in Greece you do not want to leave.
Shouldn't we help people a bit?
By the way, I would never do vacations in a country that is in war. Especially if it is in war with the 1/4th of it.
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@442 Threnodio_II
”But I have said to you before and repeat now. Russians and Soviets are not the same thing any more than Nazis and Germans are. We have moved on. A younger generation remembers a dignified and peaceful withdrawal in 1991. There is no need to harbor resentment. We should never forget the lessons of history but to use them as the building blocks of future prejudice is puerile and futile.”
I agree, though with certain reserve. The Russian leadership seems to be very pragmatic, but however, the building of a new kind of more open, more sincere kind of relationship between the central/local authorities there and the ordinary citizens is still at the starting point….
We, Bulgarian folks are among those who share the same orthodox faith, use the same alphabet, have very similar culture, and consequently, we can easier integrate the Russians among us. As a matter of fact, according to the latest statistics, more than 100000 Russians of the middle classes have already moved to Bulgaria after having purchased real estate at very attractive prices. They enjoy not only the Mediterranean climate; they take full advantage of the better social conditions and higher living standards.
My wife is Russian, and, I may say that she’s very proud of the fact that she’s been given a Bulgarian citizenship; not only because she is able to travel freely to Paris (where our daughters are installed), but because she is already a “EU citizen”, a privilege that is still considered as a dream to many of her compatriots in Russia…
Regards
P.S. I enjoy a hearty welcome in the Smolenks’ blog 'cause I am in good command of the Russian and because I have the privilege to be well acquainted with many of their masterpieces in literature, poetry, classic music and fine arts.
Regards
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453. At 3:50pm on 21 Jul 2010, generalissimo_franco wrote:
@As a matter of fact, according to the latest statistics, more than 100000 Russians of the middle classes have already moved to Bulgaria after having purchased real estate at very attractive prices. They enjoy not only the Mediterranean climate; they take full advantage of the better social conditions and higher living standards.
+++++++++
"They enjoy not only the Mediterranean climate; they take full advantage of the better social conditions and higher living standards."
In Bulgaria? That mafia-ridden & dirt-poor country, hopeless country? Lol. you must be the storyteller Hans Christian Anderson. Russians move to Bulgaria (if they move there, that is) for the same reason, Brits move to France and Spain -- because it's a poorer country and it's cheaper to live their.
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@449. Bora
No doubt, but we are talking about Greece here and my self-witness verdict is do not hesitate to visit the country because of the financial problems. There are no major disruptions (myself I did not encounter even minor but I am being cautious). My main worry this summer for my moves were BA strikes and the ash from iceland. There are aslo disruption because of strikes in France (air-controllers). I have witnessed no problems going, staying and coming from Greece during the last months (I travel a lot, visited the country several times). Of course, one can visit other countries also. I spent some time in Portugal also this summer and had wonderful time in Lisboa.
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Mathiasen wrote:
"#413 Democracythreat
There are too many repetitions here, but I have avoided to repeat a couple of fundamental things, I supposed everybody were aware of in any case.
I don't even bother to go into the reductions you are making here.
Google "Copenhagen criteria"."
Is that how you roll, Mathiasen?
You tell folks that you are not going to debate their points, and then advise them to research the topic of your suggestion.
Just who do you think you are, to speak to me from such a great height?
My point, as you are no doubt fully aware, is that your argument to legitimize the democratic credentials of the EU is so poor that one only need substitute the words "EU" with "USSR", and change the tense, to expose the absurdity and weakness of the reasoning.
You call this "reductions". And yet I used precisely the same wording you used, and precisely the same reasoning. I did not reduce the length of your own argument, nor the progression of logic. I merely copied it.
Perhaps this is an issue of translation, as you may not understand the correct word in the English language. We call, it "parody", not reduction. The idea is to hold a mirror up to the face of those who are preaching false logic, such that they have no escape but to confront their own disabled thinking and, if they then attack the reasoning, they end up attacking themselves.
Or in your case, making embarrassed excuses.
If I have "reduced" your reasoning, it is only to have reduced its consequence by exposing how shallow and flimsy it really is.
You can google "parody", if you like.
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#458. At 7:20pm on 21 Jul 2010, democracythreat wrote:
“You call this "reductions". And yet I used precisely the same wording you used, and precisely the same reasoning. I did not reduce the length of your own argument, nor the progression of logic. I merely copied it.”
Firstly: No, you didn’t. You replaced EU with USSR and made a false analogy. I can assure you, I am not going to spend my time explaining you or any of the other contributors here, who make the same false analogy, what the difference is. Goggle “Copenhagen criteria”.
There is another reason: If you want to talk with me, I will advise you to use another tone. You can start with a dictionary English-German and find out what the translation of reduction is, or ask anybody else what it is. What do I care?
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Re #455
Perhaps you should try Cuba for a change.
Beautiful beaches, plenty of sun, cheap rum.
And never any strikes.[everybody's happy. ;)]
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"Once in Greece you do not want to leave."
Those thousands upon thousands of Greek immigrants in Britain, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and France do not seem to feel that way. It's a typical case of voting with one's feet. The amount of Germans who have decided to move their existence permanently to Greece is dwarved by the amount of Greeks who have decided to move to Germany.
Greece hasn't struck anyone I know as a particularly beautiful country. It's just another one of those holiday destinations - sun, beaches and hotels that can be found anywhere alongside the Mediterranen, from Greece to Croatia to Italy to France to Spain to North Africa.
Greece made a mistake when it put al its eggs in one basket - tourism. Greeks should have realised that crises are always likely to happen and that tourism is likely to go down during a time of crisis. Lamentably, rather than exploring ways of building up a viable industry that does not rely solely on tourism, many Greeks have now resorted to finger-pointing and blaming other nations for the mess they got themselves in.
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461. At 10:13am on 22 Jul 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
""""Once in Greece you do not want to leave."
Those thousands upon thousands of Greek immigrants in .......amount of Germans who have decided to move their existence permanently to Greece is dwarved by the amount of Greeks who have decided to move to Germany.""""
Ironic humour Chris. Don't treat it as a point! What you say is obvious.
"""Greece hasn't struck anyone I know as a particularly beautiful country."""
This is your personal opinion to which you are entitled. Greece is one of the most expensive touristic destinations and still tourists come every year with a significant rate of tourist returns (i.e. people coming to visit other parts of the country).
"""It's just another one of those holiday destinations - sun, beaches and hotels that can be found anywhere alongside the Mediterranen, from Greece to Croatia to Italy to France to Spain to North Africa."""
Quite not. You are evidently not aware of the tourism industry and how it works. If tourists came for the sun and the beaches then the 80% of them would be in Chalkidiki, the place with the best beaches in Greece and the largest concentrated number of them (the average island has 3-4 wonderful beaches, each peninsula in Chalkidiki has about 30-40 of them). Yet Chalkidiki is a colony of Greek tourists from Thessaloniki while foreign tourists go islands and Peloponesus which despite its size has nice beaches counted in the one hand.
"""Greece made a mistake when it put al its eggs in one basket - tourism."""
You are correct in pinpointing that Greece as a country cannot be based on tourism solely.
However I need to inform you that Greece never really did this in a coscious manner. It was more a laissez-faire approach by the Greek state which was never occupied with developing a rational tourism strategy for the country. Hence tourism was left in the hands of the local people, local villagers, with all negative (and sometimes positive) things that this may mean for both tourists and the country.
"""Greeks should have realised that crises are always likely to happen and that tourism is likely to go down during a time of crisis."""
Correct.
"""Lamentably, rather than exploring ways of building up a viable industry that does not rely solely on tourism,""
Correct.
"""many Greeks have now resorted to finger-pointing and blaming other nations for the mess they got themselves in."""
No, not correct. They do not blame other nations if they pinpoint a particular article in a particular international media that creates unfair negative impressions. Eg. the fear of disruptions by strikes - when the BA and French controllers strikes have so far created far more disruptions than the whatever Greek strikes despite Britain and France not being in the position that Greece is.
Chris. Greeks are a self-conscious nation that knows how to make its own critiscism and they are one of the very few nations world wide that had no complex doing it in front of foreigners. This is extremely rare in our world. However, this is small country situated in a particular region and like so many other countries afterall, has a particular history of being subject to interventionism and other such nasty details we discuss so often here thus naturally us Greeks wish to go down to the root-cause of things. Is that scape-goating? Of course not. This is rooting the problem in concern.
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NIk wrote: "Greeks are a self-conscious nation that knows how to make its own critiscism and they are one of the very few nations world wide that had no complex doing it in front of foreigners."
So after mentioning to many Turkish atrocities please tell me something about Occupation of Izmir.
[Besides what's in Wikipedia and other encyclopaedias under that entry]
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463. At 11:36am on 22 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"""So after mentioning to many Turkish atrocities please tell me something about Occupation of Izmir.
[Besides what's in Wikipedia and other encyclopaedias under that entry]"""
This has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.
But to satisfy your curiosity let me pass you the following:
You use the turkish mis-pronunciation of the correct name of the city that is Smyrna. When you talk to Turks you can pronounce it as you wish, when you talk to foreigners you can use what ever you want - though did not see you here calling Moscow Moskva or something which rings bells to your objectivity.
When you talk to me you will use the real name of the city otherwise I will note once again your aggressive attitude.
Now, when you refer to occupation, you inherently imply that the Greeks conquered a foreign land of a foreign state which is already a subjective pro-Turkish position you talk and which is blatantly wrong:
It is blatantly wrong to call it occupation since you count in that notion Turkey as a state but Turkey (and even as the nation it is perceived today) that started its life in 1923.
Despite the time proximity of 1919 (year of the arrival of the Greek army in the city to 1923 year of the foundation of the Turkish state), what you say is the the equivalent of saying that Romans invaded and occupied Hungary but the Hungary did not exist back then nor did Hungarians.
Smyrna could not had been occupied by Greeks, a population that had been there for at least 3 times longer in the span of history than the whatever muslims Turks you can count, let alone being the majority in this city Turks themselves called Gavour-Izmir (i.e. Smyrna, city of infidels).
Technically speaking, back in WWI and the total collapse of the Ottoman Empire:
1) There was no more historic, sentimental or national reasons for Turks to have Smyrna and not Thessaloniki or Athens
2) There were no more historic, sentimental or national reasons for Greeks to have Thessaloniki and Athens and not Smyrna.
You therefore judge an event with totally modern viewpoints and of course wholly paint it with your likes and dislikes (and I have explained this: you hate Russians and hate anyone related anyhow to them, eg. all orthodox, then you love anyone that resists them and anyone pro-US thus you inherently love Turks whatever their deeds).
From there on in invite you to study this event in depth and find out how the Greek army arrived in this majoritively Greek habitated Greek city at a time the genocide of the Greek population of Minor Asia was well underway and already more than 500,000 Greeks had been exterminated by slaughters and concentration camps - yet in complete contrast Greeks largely respecting the presence of muslims and with only minor clashes erupting mainly among Greek people taking vendetta-revenges on muslim neighbours being aided by unruly troops (the likes of Cretans and Macedonians, recently liberated from the muslims and who were of course the generation that suffered the muslim violence - in contrast to other southern Greeks whose grandparents were mostly born after the independence of the first miniscule Greek state).
It is of course of outmost importance to say that the Greek army was not sent there on its own, nor out of any clear decision of the Greek state but out of the byzantinisms of British-agent prime-minister Venizelos (and there you have to read what did he really do throughout the WWI and how he represented the British in Greece, dividing the country, dragging it on the edge etc.). Hence, the Greek army was there not on its own but as a part of the British plan. Whatever path it followed later, it had been according to British plan which was of course already pre-designed (you would not expect them to had acted upon the moment). There are 1000s of proofs over this and it is certainly not the Greek writers (largely constrained by the post-WWII politics) who wrote but actually foreign writers including British, French and Italians let alone the more neutral back then US ones.
From there on considering the attrocities you claim, there is no historic evidence that Greeks were doing any wide-spread attrocities. Their whole campaign from the coastline east to outside Anchara caused anything from 20,000 to 40,000 deaths among civilians and in them they are already counted the Tsetes, i.e. armed civilians = local militias. Most civilian deaths are accounted to the Greek army dealing with Tsetes operating from inside villages. Given the numerical inferiority of the Greek army that remained a compact relatively small for the task army marching on enemy territory (for reasons that had nothing to do with Greek interests, Greek politics but the British ones regarding the whole Middle East and the management of the after-WWI status of the region, reasons that you are far from comprehending) it is quite admirable that the civilian losses had been so low and it is striking that we talk about the times where Turks had already exterminated half a million Greeks let alone other 2,5 million fellow orthodox christians (Armenians and Assyrochaldeans).
What strikes us is that 3 years later when Kemal's muslim/turkish army (there was no turkish state back then, the army had lots of Kurds too) enterred in Smyrna they found the muslim community intact. Them in 3 days they had burned the city and massacred about 300,000 Greeks and the whatever Armenians as well as other christians they found in that in the most horrible way - by far the most horrible event whose only equivalent in 20th century history is the Nanking holocaust in China perpetrated by Japanese.
But let me ask you a question:
Why do you open this issue, that has little to do with our discussion here? And why do you open an issue that you completely ignore even the basics?
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Special dedication for powermeerkat (I am at a good mood, say thank you to me):
So Come. Come powermeerkat, give me your little hand to take you a stroll into history via this wikipedia text of "Izmir occupation" you refered. This is a pro-turkish text so really we should be able to find all information about Greek attrocities in Smyrna or elsewhere:
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"""A military administration was formed by the Greek premier Eleftherios Venizelos shortly after the initial landings. Venizelos had plans to annex İzmir that he succeeded in realizing his objective in Treaty of Sèvres August 10, 1920.[6], He had immediately agreed to send Greek troops to İzmir after Italian troops had landed in Antalya.
[edit] Landings, 15 May 1919"""
"""On May 15, 1919, twenty thousand[7] Greek soldiers landed in İzmir and took control of the city and its surroundings under cover of the Greek, French, and British navies."""
Not under cover. Under the British plan and the French silent approval in face of the aggressive Italians.
"""Greeks of İzmir and other Christians, who formed the minority according to Ottoman sources and a majority according to Greek sources[8], greeted the Greek troops as liberators."""
Evidently it was a liberation from muslim violence that had already commited the first part of the genocide having slaughtered about half a million Greeks of nort coast and west coast Minor Asia.
"""According some other sources, Christian population was "perhaps a bare majority, more likely a large minority in the Smyrna Vilayet, which lay in an overwhelmingly Turkish Anatolia."[9]"""
Greeks were an absolute majority in Smyrna and a clear majority in most coastal regions of the west coast. Trying to view them as within the "overwhelming turkish anatolia" is ridiculous and similar to viewing Turks as part of the overwhelming christian Europe. Ottoman Empire was an un-national Empire. Turks were a minority. All muslims together (including sects like Alevis and Bektashis) were a slight majority in Anatolia (not more than 60% of the overall population).
"""It has been recorded, before WWI, that the Greeks alone numbered 130,000 out of a total population of 250,000, while the Ottoman ruling class referred to the city as Infidel Smyrna (Gavur Izmir) due to its strong Greek presence.[10][11]"""
Before WWI there was no pro-Greek source to count the Greeks there which by definition means that there were far more Greeks than that. Turks would had never called a city or a place as "gavour" if they had a 50% muslim population in it.
""""The landings proved to be chaotic and one of the examples of atrocities, which would continue during the rest of the conflict,"""
Already the righter tries to justify the turkish attrocities. However there is evident lack of the genocide of Greeks from 1910 up to 1919.
"""Von Mikusch notes: “The Christian crowd rages and yells…"""
Von who? A German maybe? Germany was a staunch ally of Ottomans. German military and civilian people participated in the gernocide of christians in Minor Asia especially in the "civilian/military construction projects" for which the first concentration camps of the 20th century were organised in which more than 120,000 Greek young men of Minor Asia were exterminated.
It is no surprising the obvious anxiety of this little german man to accuse Greeks and his hatred is evident by his name. Swearing at Greeks for this pathetic man is swearing the British and French.
"""Many fall under the bayonet thrusts."""
Fell? Killed? Maimed? What? No details? Ok, we got the picture.
"""The men are forced to tear the fezes from their heads and trample them underfoot – the worst outrage for a Mohammedan – all who refuse are cut down with the sword. The veils are torn from the women's faces."""
Oh the humanity! They were told to take out their hats as the Greek army passed and the women to reveal their faces! What a horrible attrocity! I am deeply shocked!
"""The mob begins to plunder the house of the Mohammedan”[12]."""
What house? Eh?
"""There were several Westerner eye-witnesses to the events that took place in Izmir."""
Yes, British, French, Germans and Italians, all of the negatively positioned against Greece (do not forget that the accord of British and French laid upon a thin line - in reality of course it had been a set-up for the future management of the whole area, there was never any plan to give these areas to Greeks, their army was to be used as a boxing sack to serve western European interests).
"""In such a report, Commanding Officer of the USS Arizona wrote:
Old men, unarmed, and other unoffending civilian Turks were knocked down by the Greeks... ...Turkish soldiers and officers were bayoneted from behind by their Greek guards..."""
Quite a funny description of attrocities - what was the problem killing Turkish soldiers and officers in front or behind? That was their problem? Still I see no description of any mass killings, the whole affair smells of isolated cases. No numbers, no specific descriptions just air-talk.
"""Many of the worst instances of inhuman treatment of the Turks were while they were under arrest and on open sea front at noonday.[13]"""
?????????????? Eh? What? Sorry, in a mass slaughter you have time to arrest people and to carry them on open sea at noonday?
Why on earth am I supposed to take this seriously?
"""Donald Whitall, British resident of İzmir stated that:"""
British resident of Izmir, i.e. a Turk-loving businessman (otherwise he wouldn't be a resident there!).
"""From the custom-house up to the Kramer Palace Hotel I was the unwilling witness of the massacre of some thirty unarmed men, who were being marched with hands up. This butchery was committed by Greek soldiers entirely...Close to the landing place of the Cordelio boats I saw a lot more shot down.[14]"""
Greek soldiers. That was the event with the Cretans. Terrible event. How many? 30 people? Right. Not enough to call it mass-massacre. One must be balanced.
"""The first couple months of the occupation was described to American senate by James Harbord, whose mission was to determine the situation of Armenian Christians in the Ottoman Empire:[15]"""
"""The Greek troops and the local Greeks who had joined them in arms started a general massacre of the Mussulmen population in which the officials and Ottoman officers and soldiers as well as the peaceful inhabitants were indiscriminately put to death and subjected to forms of torture and savagery worthy of the Inquisition and constituting in any case a barbarous violation of the laws of humanity."""
Greece was a country whose recent annexec Greek territories like Macedonia, Thrace & Crete) had been only recently (i.e. merely 10 and 15 years back) subjected to Turkish barbarity not to mention the genocide of 500,000 Greeks already by then in Minor Asia. Of course, none should expect Greeks not to do any attrocities. However we have to put things in context. In the right balance.
Let us see the "how many" "mohamedans" (see, they don't even talk about "turks", it was mohamedans back then...).
"""Naturally the outcry was great among the Mussulmen population. It appealed for help. The voice thus raised by the innocent and tormented Mussulmen of Smyrna reverberated throughout the land. The whole nation rose as one man to oppose the barbarously hostile action of the Greeks."""
When was that written? During the events or after? Cos it sounds like an evident deliberate effort to justify the millions of christians killed by Turks.
"""The occupation proved a humiliation for many of the Turkish and Muslim inhabitants. Whilst the Turkish army was ordered not to open fire, a Turkish nationalist (Hasan Tahsin) among the crowd fired a shot and killed the Greek standard bearer[17]. Greek soldiers then opened fire on the Turkish barracks as well as the government building. Between 300 to 400 Turks and 100 Greeks were killed on the first day.[18]"""
At last! We have the first valid numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Between 300 to 400 Turks and up to 100 Greeks were killed on the first day!!!! Really? 100 Greeks how come if Turks were unarmed?????????????
Now WHY did it start? Aaaaaaaaa: because Turks found it smart to shoot at the flag bearer right in the entrance of the army (the reality is that Turks shooted in various other occasions provoking their own death).
And how many finally??????????????????????????????????????????????????
Between 300 and 400.
Sounds not like any general massacre you know, the city had some 300,000 population and at last some 80,000 muslims.
"""The Greek landings had served to trigger the Turkish War of Independence, marked by the landing of Mustafa Kemal (later Atatürk) in Samsun on May 19, 1919, four days after the occupation. Kemal formed a nationalist movement with a separate government in Ankara, and no longer recognised the administration in Istanbul, which on August 10, 1920, had signed the Treaty of Sèvres, thus formally ceding the territories to Greece which she presently occupied."""
Well that was the British idea you know.
"""Italy was angry at having lost what was promised and became sympathetic to the nationalist forces."""
Italy had declared war in Greece and had attacked in western Greece. They occupied half of southern Turkey, a huge territory, to which Turks did not mind at all (so much for their "war of independence"). And then by 1921 they provided all the help and cover to Turks from the Italian occupied port of Attaleia.
"""Soon thereafter, France had declared an armistice with Mustafa Kemal."""
A! So much for "war of independence" fighting 153 nations attacking them (!). So far Italy and France with them!
"""Britain, attempting to defeat Kemal's army, gave permission for Venizelos to invade further into Anatolia and root out the nationalists."""
"Permission to Venizelos". Permission (what? an order?)? Venizelos (who? their agent?)? Calling an order permission and their agent a Greek leader?
"""During the occupation of the city, the Greeks established a number of institutions in the city."""
... that Ottomans had failed to establish in 500 years of their rule.
"""For example, the first university in İzmir was founded by the Phanariot Greek Mathematician Constantin Carathéodory.[19]"""
I think that had been the greatest insult to the Ottomanoturkish culture. Served right the genocide of 7 million christians (4 slaughtered and 3 cleansed) when they wanted to built universities daring to invite one of the most eminent scientists of the 20th century!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"""Several programs were instituted to better the lives of inhabitants of the city.[19]"""
How barbaric all that eh?
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The question is not if Greeks can escape defaulting.
The question is if Greeks can escape genocide.
Put it good to your mind.
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I guess we'll have to limit ourselselves only to the Wikipiedia entry
'Occupation of Izmir'.
Too bad:(
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generalissimofranco
Re #424
Fine, You go ahead, join the mad-greek and worry about Turkey as a threat to EUrope.
Me, I'll just take his litany of psychological anxst at #390, 400, 423, 426, 437, 452, 462, 464 & 466 as even more grounds for every EU Member Nation worrying about the formation of a EUropean Defence Force: If by any however slim chance this general paranoia against America & UK, obsessive hatred of all things Turk, plus the wildly overdone 'poor Greece' mentality is a reflection of the Greek state of mind!
In all honesty I cannot believe that the deluded condition is rife because if it were then whole country would need permanent sedation!
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Isenhorn
Re #433
"..destruction/reconstruction.."? "..Iraq.."?"..Afghanistan.."?
Think we are losing the logical thread of debate if we are going to bring those into a discussion on the efficacy of the EU - - so, I just wont mention them.
" reason for disbanding it (EU)..": Well, actually no, I don't anywhere write about disbanding the EU, however, I do & have written copiously on the merits of UK & most especially England being outside of it. I have also suggsted that as the EU is presently set-up it is incapable of the internal Reforms to its 'political' & 'administrative' functions that so many 'pro-EU' write (as You do) about being needed for it to become a progressive & useful system of supra-National Governance.
Frankly, not only is it 'incapable' I do believe those in authority & power within it have absolutely no intention of 'reform' and on the contrary are intent on accruing even more centralised control. This is my opinion because nothing about the Leadership & EUrotocrats of post-Maastricht EU has revealed anything but their contempt for the Citizens of the Continental EUopre & the British Isles. Accompanying that basic unconcern/disregard for Citizens is the EU's inertia & stagnant overall policy-making attitude (as clearly evidenced by the push for 'centralised' EU oversight of National Budgets) whereby 'one-size-fits-all' is its sole answer to any and every issue facing Brussels.
I'm sorry, but it is You that brought up the 'aristocracy' argument and the anachronisms that exist in the UK Government-Democratic system: It is no use then avoiding the issue when I point out the whole of EUrope has undergone exactly the same sorts of cultural-political-social evolution over the centuries and each Nation emerged with its own brand of 'peculiarities'.
I'm unsure of the 'dodgy dossier' argument: If You mean the 'sexed-up' 45 mins Saddam WMD then of course that is an issue, but the extrapolation to the EU is so far-fetched I am as I say unsure on what grounds You expect me to reply? I can only say that as with 'BAE' so with France, Germany, Italy, Finland, Sweden, Poland, Spain... the list is endless of EU member Nations with reports of serious 'business' malpractise & corruption at the highest levels.
My real point would be as I indicated before: IMO it is far more likely these sorts of matters will be brought to light & dealt with at a National level than at a supra-national one and for the Individual Citizen (the 1 of 60 million as opposed to 1 of 500 million) the chances of redress are also much more likely at National than supra-National representation.
EU-Brussels has exhibited almost no interest in dealing with the vast amount of malpractise & corruption surrounding its Departments & Institutions: Indeed its 'anti-corruption' dept shares offices with the departments it is supposed to be rigorously checking out!
Now, it maybe not all that different at UK/England level, however, I cannot see Enquiries like Chilcott, Baby P, Bloody Sunday, MPs Expenses etc. ever being undertaken at Brussels with any prospect of their being anything other than token affairs aimed largely at brushing everything under a very thick carpet whilst offering the EUrocrat jobsworths even more opportunity to intervene in areas that are entirely properly those of a State.
Finally, may I just point-out that there is nothing "..self-righteous.." or even a "..crusade.." about my opposition to the EU: At least, not unless You are willing to accept that if in Your opinion UK membership of the EU is more important than the Democratic Rights & Responsibilities of the unconsulted British Public then You may continue with Your 'self-righteous crusade' on behalf of the EU!
I will agree I do believe ultimately the EU is 'evil', but that is in the sense that I see the EU as a negation & abandonment of the principle reasons for National & Individual existence: In my view it is attempting to replace those with a supra-National 'one-size-fits-all' version of how a Citizen and a Nation must conduct their affairs. This is just the latest, less violent, but equally dangerous and anti-Democratic expression of the 'imperial' power at the centre - - from Caesar to Charlemagne to Napoleon etc. - - whether it be Rome, Paris, Berlin, London etc. the almighty central entity is a threat to Civil Liberties & will be resisted by Citizens in the fullness of time.
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re #470 "the almighty central entity is a threat to Civil Liberties & will be resisted by Citizens in the fullness of time."
Since in the future the federal government may become despotic,
the right of citizens to bear arms and form well organized militias...
Or something like that. :)))
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@ 469 CBW
Well, I see that you are going easily to put on the same bench all orthodox people here present (incl. Alice of Russia, Nik & Vassilis of neighbour Greece, me and others). It is a pity indeed, because we have been chatting here for almost three years and, each one of us got some kind of more or less accurate impression on the political, cultural etc. comments of the other bloggers, an impression which gradually became a conviction about the visions of any member of our virtual community.
Of course, I must agree that many of the conclusions our colleague Nik posted here are more or less extremist /no matter that they are based on well established historic facts/. Nik, at times seems to be more emotional than logic. I understand him better than anyone, because the fate of my country is very, very similar to that of his native Greece. If we add to that the circumstance that at we share very close orthodox culture and traditions, you may easily make the parallel between Brits and the other English speaking Christian people from New Zealand, Australia, Canada and the US. Needleless to say, all orthodox people /with a few exceptions/ still consider Russia as being the banner and the leader of our orthodox community. I do not have in mind the highly educated people like you and me. I have in mind all those millions of unknown hard working people from Cyprus, Create, all the Greek Archipelago /the Russian admiral Ushakoff liberated from the Ottoman rule in the XVIII s./, Armenia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia and Bulgaria who owe their independence to Russia. The memories are still alive. That sympathy and respect to the bigger sister is so profoundly set in the hearts of the said people that they make part of the mentality of the crushing majority of the orthodoxies.
Of course, we face new realities and new challenges now. If you had the patience to read the posts I have exchanged with Threnodio, MAII and Powermeerkat (just like I read regularly your posts), you would have noticed maybe that I repeatedly was supporting the present status quo in Europe under the NATO command, that I had little trust in the efficiency of an eventual EDF; that I highly appreciated the US involvement in the collective defence of the European member states; and that my personnel concerns were linked with the eventual dissolution of NATO and the US disengagement from the European theatre.
I do hope that you will be able to make a clear distinction between the people from the Eastern part of the continent, just as we try to assess the contribution of each west nation to the welfare of our community (the EU). I shall go even further in my predictions by saying something that probably will not please you personally, though it is not at all my own vision on how things would go if the UK eventually withdrew from the EU. I do not believe that that will happen at all, but I am convinced /taking in account the irreversible integration processes/ that the UK risks to be virtually dismantled, because the Scots, the Welsh people, the North Irish people and the English will take full advantage of the situation in order to re-confirm their European identity. So, the paradoxical(!) equation tells me that the mere preservation of your union depends much on your active(!) presence beyond the channel. As a matter of fact, I always believed that the Brits were more attached to us, the European folks than to their overseas ex-colonies. (In Bulgaria there is already a very strong community of retired Brits who have deemed it useful to buy real estate here and to enjoy the sunny time nine months a year).
Regards from Sofia
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@469 CBW (ctnd)
"In all honesty I cannot believe that the deluded condition is rife because if it were then whole country would need permanent sedation!"
Fortunately enough, the situation both in Greece and in the EU is not so hopeless and does not need a permanent sedation.
However, I invite you to make (for yourself) a more thorough study of the last events that followed the coming to power of the present Turkish leadership. I do not think that a country that is going to abandon the secular values do not represent a source of some logical concern among us, Europeans.
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469. At 9:26pm on 22 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
""""generalissimofranco
Re #424
Fine, You go ahead, join the mad-greek and worry about Turkey as a threat to EUrope.""""
I never elaborated on how much a threat is Turkey to Europe. I have elaborated on how much European total attachment to US geopolitics is a threat to Europe. I have also elaborated on the need to either kick out Britain or demand from it to change orientation. That is all. Turkey itself is not a threat unless it is pushed by US (or you know who else) from behind.
I have the tedency to go directly to the root cause and not remain on the surface. I have explained what is going, the threat of war that hangs in the air over issues like the 12-miles and Southstream, issues that are far more important every single issue you ever wanted to discuss here but despite your age, you are really too much inexperienced to ever be in position to comprehend even the basics of what I refer here.
You have the freedom to abstain from discussions you do not comprehend the basics, you are not forced into them.
"""Me, I'll just take.....this general paranoia against America & UK, obsessive hatred of all things Turk, plus the wildly overdone 'poor Greece' mentality is a reflection of the Greek state of mind!"""
You keep coming back with more abuse. Your are following the propagandists' bible:
1) first try to counter-argumentate
2) if 1 fails, try to ridicule
3) if 2 fails, try to abuse
4) if 3 fails, try to threaten
5) if 4 fails, try to exterminate
Well, apparently 4 and 5 are not applicable here, so you have jumped already to 3. Congratulations!
"""In all honesty I cannot believe that the deluded condition is rife because if it were then whole country would need permanent sedation!"""
...revealing your fascist tedencies CBW? That is what you propose for people that have different world view opposing yours. So much that you amuse me.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
467. At 2:32pm on 22 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
The question is not if Greeks can escape defaulting.
The question is if Greeks can escape genocide.
Put it good to your mind.
---------------------------------------------------------
Why? You gonna commit mass suicide?
About occpuation of Izmir, after greek army got defeated close to Turkish Republic's new capital Ankara, they started retreating back to Aegean. On the way back, greek army burned down Manisa, Kütahya, Balikesir, and many other cities, towns and villages on their way to Izmir. Some cities like Manisa were burned to the ground, leaving only 10-15% of the buildings standing. What we celebrate on 30th August every year (victory day) in Turkey, is a mourning day in greece for they lost their chance to resurrect byzantine.
Nik tries to make a clear line between "muslims" and "non-muslims". There were many non-muslims from Istanbul in Gallipoli defending dardanelles against the Anzacs, including armenian and rum among the turks. But according to Nik, anyone who is not a muslim can not be a Turk (that includes me?)
He neglects to mention that 5 million "muslims" were killed in balkan wars alone, and they were not all ottoman turks, they were just muslims. The nationalism before ww1 ensured that orthodox people did not want to have muslim neighbors. Nik goes on and on about genocides perpetrated by Turks while not saying a word about ottoman losses. Why does Greece not get along with albania, turkey, macedonia? Because all these countries have done genocides against them? Or simply because they don't follow greek orthodox church? In a country where politics are directly connected to church nobody can say there is a fair democracy or equality. It's no wonder Nik and Niklings spam forums with islamic dooms, the forthcoming genocides and so on.
As a non-muslim Turkish citizen living in Istanbul with immigrant parents, I can easily say Nik's paranoid comments, generalizations and demonization of Turks are totally unjustified. I'm just hoping greek government or church officials are not on the same levels of sanity as Nik.
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475. At 12:28pm on 23 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
You keep coming back with more abuse. Your are following the propagandists' bible:
1) first try to counter-argumentate
2) if 1 fails, try to ridicule
3) if 2 fails, try to abuse
4) if 3 fails, try to threaten
5) if 4 fails, try to exterminate
-----------------------------------------------------
Somebody call the irony police!
475. At 12:28pm on 23 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
Turkey either under Kemalists or islamists is the same unstable and aggressive country.
-----------------------------------------------------
So you only believe Turkey is going either Kemalist or islamist. Hopefully your beliefs don't make the truth. If, instead of looking out the window so much, you looked inside your house you'd see the mess you're in and do/comment something about it. But no, according to you, all the trash comes through your window from your neighbors. And let's not forget that it was you who tried to invade your neighbor last time.
And it is funny that someone from a non-democratic country where non-orthodox un-greek citizens don't have the same rights as "true greeks" trying to slander another country on human rights. But, oh I forgot, Turks were bribing them to claim they're not greeks, right?
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generalissimofranco
Re #472
As You did me the courtesy of a long and very interesting response to my #469 I have taken the same approach (apologies).
Yes, I had as always, read Your posts & noted Your interest/support of NATO was similar to many inc. my own.
In my #469 I wrote of those EUropean Nations & Peoples who favoured the formation of an EDF. I indirectly suggested that views such as those of the mad-Greek indicated an EDF would find itself at loggerheads with Turkey. I stand by that.
Elsewhere, You choose to use the term "..orthodox.." and it is a bit unclear to me as to what You mean by this: As a 'Faith' it would seem to be a wholly inappropriate (i.e. out-dated & inaccurate) labelling of a mass of people in the region You primarily make Your remarks about. On any other basis the term 'orthodox' suggests You take Your view as common to the great majority (inc. Nik); I would say that is as much of a generalisation as if I were (which I never do) to claim the UK Citizens all want to be out of the EU.
Like the UK/England, Bulgaria has a long history and of course every Citizen is affected to some extent by the annals of experience passed from one generation to the next: Here again, I do puzzle over Your presenting of the 'eastern' continent as being so different from all the rest - - if anything such a view just highlights for me the ridiculous EU 'one-size-fits-all' mentality & absurdity of 'every closer union'. On the contrary, I do not think any of us are so very different; what Citizens of 'West' (You label it 'EU' though I don't know why?) & 'East' aspire to is the Rights & Responsibilities arrived at by Democratically approved Human Rights and with that an opportunity to live in relative harmony. It would seem to me the serial enmity, paranoid suspicion & hatreds expressed toward Turkey belong in a past You & others should not be handing down to Your children/grandchildren if those aspirations I mention above are to be achieved.
If the formation of the European Economic Community had a primary goal in the 'west' it was to break down those old, near traditional enmities - - IMO it succeeed to some extent - - IMO it is the post-Maastricht inception of the 'political construct' called the EU that has set-back that notable achievement by its wilful neglect/disrespect of the People.
Of course, throughout Europe & the British Isles there are unresolved issues: For Greece, e.g. Cyprus, but it is certainly no way to approach their resolution to have a mad-Greek constantly alleging the USA, UK, Germany etc. are all encouraging Turkey in opposition to Greece's interests because of an imagined catalogue of wrongs towards his Nation.
Personally, I would welcome the entry of Turkey into the EU as it would undoubtedly have enormous undermining impact on the axis-of-ill-intent based at Paris-Brussels-Berlin. Turkey's admittance is of course a long way off - - this too, I enjoy from a political perspective - - for it serves to highlight the utter duplicity & calculated menace of that 'axis' who between them spout fulsomely about the benefits of 'ever closer union' etc. and in the next breath put every imaginable & unimagined obstacle in the way of the entry of a very large neighbouring Nation! IMO Paris-Berlin want hegemony in continental EUrope, are close to achieving it, and the last thing they want or need is to have large & powerfully attractive 'independent' National voices at the 'west', i.e. UK/England and 'east', i.e. Turkey, offering alternatives to their 'one-size-fits-all' version of a unified Europe. In or out the EU it is my contention UK/England & Turkey are serious rivals to the centralising core instincts of the EU-Brussels entity: It can barely cope with the ramifications of UK/England's 'optional' stance to Brussels' self-serving policies so how much more pressured & weakened would its centre become with a lively alternative Economic-Political scenario on its 'eastern' border, i.e. Turkey as a member of the EU?
Which brings me to Your early claim, "..many conclusions of our colleague Nik posted here are more or less extremist..": There is NO 'more-or-less', his views are at the worst end of 'extreme' & border as I obviously have stated on madness. You continue with, "..no matter that they are based on well established historic facts..": When You try to repeat/support the unsubstantiated, factually inaccurate & often wholly erroneous mad-Greek's assertions about the history/misfortunes etc. of Greece/Balkans You undermine almost everything else that You comment on.
I regret, but in all honesty must state, I have no more sympathy with You than Nik if behind everything of Your views lay similar motivations of spuriously unfounded 'geo-political' conspiracy theories.
Final issue:
Contrary to Your thoughts, the 'dismantling' of the UK cannot in my view occur quickly enough! The sooner England & the English are after centuries freed of the encumbrance (and vice versa) of Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland the better.
IMO the United Kingdom was an exceptionally useful & effective political-cultural-military entity in its time. However, those days are long gone: Frankly, in this modern age of Hi-Tec/Spec. in everything the Scots, Welsh & Irish don't want or need such close ties with the English and the English as the ONLY National group WITHOUT its own elected representative Parliament most assuredly would be far better off Paying their Taxes for England's benefit alone. Thus, I would also support not paying any English Taxes to Brussels (i.e withdrawal).
IMO the Economic-Fiscal relief of not having to contribute to the 3 'union' nations and/or to Brussels other than by normal mercantile methods would in itself be an enormous uplift for England.
Thus, Referenda for all 4 Union Nations on UK & on EU Membership would be my political wish-list fulfilled: Though I make no claim for results suiting my personal beliefs on either issue -- it is the fact that NOBODY knows the British Citizens' views on their political-economic-social-judicial future is my greatest annoyance. Clearly the 'political' elite of the UK/England are very unlikely to put those 2 key issues to the Public in Secret Ballot anytime soon as it would appear they fear my 'withdrawal' ambition is also that of a majority of Britons/English.
So, the wholly Un-Democratic EU process continues bringing with it (in contrast to expressed aims) 'ever closer disillusionment' and the likelihood of a frustrated & bitterly divided populace - - within the UK/England & on the Continent - - from which resistance movements may emerge that do not favour my 'political' resolution and take more direct/assertive action against the illegitimate EU-Brussels entity or representations of it across borders.
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@475 Nik
"Generalissimo, saying this is like implying the other side, Kemalists, were any better than islamists."
Well Nik, I would restrain myself to comment your presumption, though I believe that Kemal Pasha, long before the coup he mounted in 1920 was in the heart of the slaughters that took place in Armenia, and elsewhere ... However, if we have the choice, we would prefer the less evil, that is to say a secular neighbour, than a state ruled by people whose views do not defer much from the views of the fundamentalists...
I am inclined to accept your critical notes (as long as they concern myself and my country), as a natural reaction against the present status quo. But, given the fact that Turkey is still in NATO (i.e. it should count with the complex geopolitical interests of Washington/Israel) and given the perspective that it will not be invited to the EU (at least for the coming 20 years), I can not see other better situation for us, humble orthodox folks inhabiting the Balkan peninsular than the present one. I am really sorry if my frankness will hurt your feelings. I just try to evaluate the risks that would appear if somehow Turkey joins the EU, or if the US disengages from NATO and leaves the European theatre. In both cases, the situation could go out of control.
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Re #474
"...following the propagandists' bible.." and "..fascist tendencies..": Says it all really!
From '1 (argument)' to '5 (exterminate)' because I do not agree with anothers views that is the inference of my rationale!?
Absurdity ad nauseum becomes addled, arrant nonsense!
Get some help before it is too late.
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476. At 1:30pm on 23 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
467. At 2:32pm on 22 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
The question is not if Greeks can escape defaulting.
The question is if Greeks can escape genocide.
Put it good to your mind.
---------------------------------------------------------
"""Why? You gonna commit mass suicide?"""
Bora, the word genocide is Greek. Inherently you do not understand its total meaning and what extensions it may have. Don't fight it.
"""About occpuation of Izmir, after greek army got defeated....On the way back, greek army burned down Manisa, Kütahya, Balikesir, and many other cities, towns and villages on their way to Izmir. Some cities like Manisa were burned to the ground, leaving only 10-15% of the buildings standing.
There is no extensive proof of the burn of muslim populated towns while returning. There is only evidence that the Greek army bombarded muslim towns where Tsetes operated when advancing. After the defeat, Greek towns were sometimes burnt by christians that knew their end came so as not to give the pleasure to muslims to loot. Cypriots did not do that in 1974 so Turks enterrred looted the whole place and took the buildings for them and gave them to Turkish families and now the island has from a miniscule 6-8% minority an ever growing 35-38% one. The idea of the desperate genocided Greeks was that if they burnt their houses they would somehow decelerate the installation of muslims in their places of birth.
However what I see is that you make yet another desperate effort to turn the discussion into the burning of houses and avoid the issue of the dead. Who cares if the Turks burnt cities or if the Greeks bombed the Tsetes villages. We are talking about the slaughters, the genocide Bora. I see you are totally indifferent to the death of millions that was perpetrated not just by the Turkish army but by the whole Turkish (back them "muslim") society. You can try to manipulate as much as you can, you can't escape from that when talking to us.
"""What we celebrate on 30th August every year (victory day) in Turkey, is a mourning day in greece for they lost their chance to resurrect byzantine."""
Again:
You can try to manipulate as much as you can, you can't escape from that when talking to us.
Lost the chance to whatever Bora. One mourns the death of 4 million people (among them 1,5 million Greeks) and the expulsion of other three (about 1,5 million Greeks). You are simply insulting here but who would expect anythign different form your side? You lack the basic cultural bases to be able to have such sensitivities.
"""Nik tries to make a clear line between "muslims" and "non-muslims". There were many non-muslims from Istanbul in Gallipoli defending dardanelles against the Anzacs, including armenian and rum among the turks. But according to Nik, anyone who is not a muslim can not be a Turk (that includes me?)"""
Galipoli 1915: Greeks and Armenians were not given weapons for obvious reasons but were called up in the army for "serving in infrastructure works". The number of Armenians is unknown to me (it must had been several 10,000s) but the number of Greeks was more than 120,000 - practically the bulk of the male youth of western Minor Asia (cos those in North Minor Asia were already under extermination). The idea was not even to have them built as a slaveforce infrastructure but to exterminate them.
These "infidel" soldiers were treated like prisoners, a few of them were used as a slaveforce in the preparation of Dardanelia and were left in the frontline armeless to serve as human shield, but the bulk of them were sent in Eastern Anatolia to be closed in work camps, the very work camps that had inspired Hitler for his final solution. Effectively, the Turkish work camps were a final solution as the idea was to exterminate all of the infidels. It was simply another part of the genocide. As German officers that worked in these concentration camps mentioned "There was no doubt that the role of these camps was not to built infrastructure but to exterminate the youth of the unwanted populations".
Bora, you realise that what you say is an insult to the memory of these genocided people.
"""He neglects to mention that 5 million "muslims" were killed in balkan wars alone, and they were not all ottoman turks, they were just muslims."""
5 million? Where exactly? Show to me places, numbers, elements? 250,000 muslims there were in Macedonia and you got back 250,000 in 1922. Alive, healthy and many of them having even sold their properties (something that not even French and British would do even by today's standards). Where did you find the 5 million? Don't you know that out of hte 4-5 million Ottomans in Europe the 80% where... the muslim Turkalbanians? As far as I know all Albanians are in their places thriving.
Come back to me with exact figures.
"""The nationalism before ww1 ensured that orthodox people did not want to have muslim neighbors."""
Who said this? Do you realise the immensity of your lie? Greeks liberated from your barbaric occupation Macedonia in 1912. In Macedonia and western Thrace there were about 250,000 muslims. These remained there and were recognised as citizens of the Greek state up to 1922 when Britain decided to close the war by this exchange of population which was not of course an exchange since Greeks had actually been exterminated and kicked out. You took back 250,000. It is needless to say that first mayor of liberated Thessaloniki was a muslim. So much for Greek will to kick out muslims.
"""Nik goes on and on about genocides perpetrated by Turks while not saying a word about ottoman losses."""
Yes I said. 30 to 40,000 including the Tsetes in times of a particularly arduous war campaign commanded by the British. How that compared to 1,5 million armless Greek civilians, most killed in times of peace?
Get your thoughts in the right order.
"""Why does Greece not get along with"""
Wait! Get along with whom? We are going to see the impressive array of countries you have gathered there.
"""albania,"""
Albanians have unimaginable territorial demands over Greece on the basis of being anciently your Ottoman servants. Greece, despite Albanian having still North Epirus, has no territorial demands over them. Why would Greeks like people that are so aggressive?
""" macedonia?"""
This Bulgarian-slavic (and 40% Albanic) country's name is FYROM, an artificial state created by dictator Tito. Macedonia is my region. In this state they teach in school that my region belongs to them. They want to annex it and they are very open about it. How can we have proper relations to them?
""" turkey,"""
Genocides, pongroms, invasions, ethnic cleansing and every worse act we saw in the 20th century has been done by Turks. Tell us a reason to have good relationship with you? Perhaps the fact that you still threaten us with war?
Tell me Bora, what Greece demands from Turkeyn FYROM and Albania? 1 thing: them to get civilised and become proper stable countries and not aggressive little devils jumping around. We want nothing else from you. Stop acting aggressively.
"""Because all these countries have done genocides against them?"""
Not at your level of course! You are by far the champions! 3 parallel genocides, 4 million people. Albanians had invaded Greece in 1941 along with Germans and Italians. Being executioners of the Italians managed to slaughter 45,000 Greeks (as much as Germans all over Greece). Previously they were your executioners. Back in 1770-80 they had killed the 1/4th of Peloponesus, around 100,000s citizens. Our ancestors made talk of the muslim Turkalbanians to denote the muslim Albanian origin of the bulk of the Ottoman militia/army. Albanians have a lonjg hisotry of looting in the greater Balkanic area thus they are not loved either by Bulgarians or Serbians.
"""Or simply because they don't follow greek orthodox church?"""
Bora what do you think we are? Like you? Muslims? To count people on their faith? We cannot care less what religion others follow. If you converted into orthodoxy you would be on your own we could not care less. Orthodox people do not count by religion. Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians are all orthodox but they were not particularly friends you know. You are the religious fanatics and judge always by religion. You divide the world into fidels and infidels. And it is you that massacre people in the name of your religion. We only care about our country, our families, our homes values that you evidently do no share. We might be neighbours but we do not share values, your culture is totally different. Do not try to make a link extending your own values upon us.
"""In a country where politics are directly connected to church nobody can say there is a fair democracy or equality."""
You speak of Turkey? Iran? Italy? or USA there?
"""It's no wonder Nik and Niklings spam forums with islamic dooms, the forthcoming genocides and so on."""
You are a nation that is still bound to create violence. You are still on it. If the genocides of the 1910s and 1920 are still fresh, the pongroms of 1955s are still very fresh and some of these criminals are actually your grandfathers and your fathers (depending on your age), and your fathers did what they did in Cyprus. You are bound to be a violent society and you do not want to understand this, that is why you will continue to be. In the first chance you will repeat the same. Proof Cyprus. The 100% of Greeks ethnically cleansed - quite easy: they knew you would slaughter, they had cars they fled to the south - but those who did not understand the severity of the situation were slaughtered on place, you know how? The halal way, with their throats slit. Along with the civilian victims all 3000 POWs (many of them of course civilians as the Greek-Cypriot defense guard was less than that), were killed and their fate remains uknown for the simple fact that they were killed in the beach and their corpses were spread in the shores to rot. 35 years back Bora. Wake up kid. This was yesterday, we do not talk about past centuries.
"""As a non-muslim Turkish citizen living in Istanbul with immigrant parents, I can easily say Nik's paranoid comments, generalizations and demonization of Turks are totally unjustified."""
You are a kid of reduced understanding. You live in a city where the worst post-WWII pongroms in Europe took place, yet you are not even knowledgeable of that. If I ask you when and what happened you are not in position to tell me.
You are not in position to realise what is going on around you. Go educate more yourself on the matters and then come back and we can have our little discussion. Take care.
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"""Of course, throughout Europe & the British Isles there are unresolved issues: For Greece, e.g. Cyprus, but it is certainly no way to approach their resolution to have a mad-Greek constantly alleging the USA, UK, Germany etc. are all encouraging Turkey in opposition to Greece's interests because of an imagined catalogue of wrongs towards his Nation."""
You swear at me for suggesting that Turkey remains aggressive due to US (ans still implicit British) intervention.
Yet on another issue like the one you refer 2-3 lines below you say the following:
"""Personally, I would welcome the entry of Turkey into the EU as it would undoubtedly have enormous undermining impact on the axis-of-ill-intent based at Paris-Brussels-Berlin."""
... A! So you would like Turkey to get in to crash the axis of PAris-Brussels-Berlin, i.e. you would like to have Turkey entering Europe not for any other reason but for other unrelated plans. Obviously you express the Londonian view here.
Ok. But you find this ok, while you find absurd the supposition that US manipulated Turkey to remain aggressive in order to serve in its games in the greater area of the Eastern Mediterranean and Black Sea.
An excellent example of a scizophrenic analysis.
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Re #476 "There were many non-muslims from Istanbul in Gallipoli defending dardanelles against the Anzacs, including armenian and rum among the Turks."
Correct me if my wrong, but wasn't (late) premier of the "kemalist" Republic of Turkey, Turgut Özal -Kurdish?
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475. At 12:28pm on 23 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"They are responsible for the 3 genocides of 1910-1922."
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And? So are Nazis in 1939-1945, but you don't see people demonizing germany around now do you? You're still stuck on events that happened a century ago, which I don't deny, on any blog subject related or unrelated to greece.
True, if goths didn't migrate and wipe out the indigenous people, there would be no Spain. But if this affects your economy and social life then I suggest you look for answers somewhere else.
"Worst news is that the plan calls for the co-existing of both. What happens now is merely the rise of the islamists but in fact what both of them want is a co-existence."
You'd rather prefer they kill each other? What's wrong about a peaceful co-existance? Of course the general expectation, contrary to yours I guess, is that they'll lose their effect and eventually disappear. Turkey's current rising power doesn't come from military or kemalists or islamists, it's coming from the booming economy. Turkey came 2nd in economic growth in the world right after China this year and is expected to be in top 5 economies in the world by 2050. But you think USA is planning this, right?
Economy is booming in Turkey cos everybody is tired of endless tensions with neighboring countries. Why fight when you can do trade? I was in a trade fair in autonomous Kurdistan in northern Iraq just last week and made many business deals. Nobody I met there (and they were all Kurds) had any hostility towards me or Turks, in fact it was surprising to see so many turkish goods in supermarkets, shops, streets, turkish tv programs on tv with sorani/barzani/dohuq subtitles, and people i met showed great hospitality. Turkey's peaceful resolution request on Iran's nuclear power plant issue is all because Turkey fears it'll lose trade with Iran if an embargo is put in place, just like on Iraq two decades ago where Turkish economy hit bottom. Turkey suffered a lot on trade when Turkey was doing exactly what USA wanted all this time, seperating itself from Syria-Iran-Iraq. Turkey is not doing so anymore and making huge trade agreements with these countries. And suddenly in western media, Turkey's axis is shifting towards fundamentalism/islamism etc.
Despite your conspiracy theories of Turkey being USA's lapdog, Turkey has shown least support for invasion of Iraq, and Turks were claimed to be the most anti-american nation in the world, by USA! Still in US media there are so many comments on how Turkey faced itself towards the islamic middle east when all Turkey did/does is strenthening economy while the whole world has drowned in economic crisis.
Turkey's southern/southeastern neighbors are booming because Turkey is booming. Greeks can take it to the streets and forums all they want, but that's not gonna change their failing economy. You have milked EU long enough and strangled yourself in EU politics. It's not because of some genocides or kemalists or british agents that your economy is this way, and will stay this way for quite some time.
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gf wrote: "But, given the fact that Turkey is still in NATO (i.e. it should count with the complex geopolitical interests of Washington/Israel) and given the perspective that it will not be invited to the EU (at least for the coming 20 years), I can not see other better situation for us, humble orthodox folks"
Looks like the Evil Empire (U$A) has actually done something right? ;)
Ad re "us, humble orthodox folks."
It's interesting how Nik the Greek cannot make himself condemn "new improved democratic Russia" for invading small Georgia.
Can you?
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Although the public finances of Greece are in a tragic state the country will not default since it is a member of the eurozone.
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464. At 12:56pm on 22 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"Despite the time proximity of 1919 (year of the arrival of the Greek army in the city to 1923 year of the foundation of the Turkish state), what you say is the the equivalent of saying that Romans invaded and occupied Hungary but the Hungary did not exist back then nor did Hungarians."
My child, before rewriting history you should read about how Turkish war of independence started on 19th May 1919.
"Smyrna could not had been occupied by Greeks, a population that had been there for at least 3 times longer in the span of history than the whatever muslims Turks you can count, let alone being the majority in this city Turks themselves called Gavour-Izmir (i.e. Smyrna, city of infidels)."
And Britain was occupied by pagan picts, celts, saxons etc way longer in the span of history than the whatever vikings or normans or christians arrived on the island, your point? And my young, Turks don't call Izmir "Gavour", that is hizbullah wannabe islamic fundamentalists that Turkey has greatly taken care of, and them calling Izmir "Gavour" comes from turks in aegean region having a good taste of alcohol and being least bit islamic according to them, nothing to do with greeks. Another myth debunked.
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483. At 4:56pm on 23 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Re #476 "There were many non-muslims from Istanbul in Gallipoli defending dardanelles against the Anzacs, including armenian and rum among the Turks."
Correct me if my wrong, but wasn't (late) premier of the "kemalist" Republic of Turkey, Turgut Özal -Kurdish?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, Turgut Özal was prime minister (later became president), and he was Kurdish. So much for Kurds being 2nd class citizens as some people claim eh
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"..an excellent example of schitzophrenic analysis.."!
Isn't there a vacant couch somewhere!?
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Re #488
There are Kurds (some of them owners of the biggest shipyards and construction companies in Istanbul - and then there's PKK.
There are educated, West-oriented Lebanese - and then there's Hezbollah.
There are secular, educated Palestinians - and then there's Hamas.
There are plenty of sophisticated Iranians -and then there're ayatollahs.
There are Cypriots who wanted to unify the island - and then there are those who've rejected UN reunification plan.
There are those who know where Republic of Madedonia is - and then there are those who look at the map and see only FYROM.
There are those who thik Georiga is an Orthodoc independent country - and then there are those who think it'd be ok for it to become a part of Russia. Again.
And so on and so forth. :(
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"Yes, Turgut Özal was prime minister (later became president), and he was Kurdish. So much for Kurds being 2nd class citizens as some people claim, eh"
There are those who in their visceral hatred of the USA claim that in America Blacks are persecuted and discriminated and those who know that U$A had a black National Security Advisor, Black Secretary of State,
black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff....etc.
And that the racist country has a black president elected by a sizable majority.
[not to mention that the Chairman of the Republican Party is black]
But never mind; as Orwellian sheep chant in "The Animal Farm":
'FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAAAAAD!'
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Re : those most recent arrest of Turkish military officers...
Bora, I don't know what you think about that, but 20 years ago guardians of the kemalist tradition (progressive, pro-Western secularism) would simply move out of their garrisons and kick out the likes of Erdogan&Gül out.
Just like they kicked Erbakan and similar crypto-Islamists out.
Is the Old Guard simply dying out or just losing their guts?
[curious meerkats want to know]
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"Although the public finances of Greece are in a tragic state the country will not default since it is a member of the eurozone."
Unless eurozone itself dissappears, just like the Soviet Zone (DDR) did.
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492. At 07:49am on 24 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Re : those most recent arrest of Turkish military officers...
Bora, I don't know what you think about that, but 20 years ago guardians of the kemalist tradition (progressive, pro-Western secularism) would simply move out of their garrisons and kick out the likes of Erdogan&Gül out.
Just like they kicked Erbakan and similar crypto-Islamists out.
Is the Old Guard simply dying out or just losing their guts?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Compared to Erbakan, current Islamists are like non-muslims. Erbakan once said "our come to power will be either bloody or nicely" and his government went straight into turban issue as they did come to power, and proposed many changes taking away freedoms. This government in that sense doesn't pose such a threat, although I don't support their views they have done more than any other party in terms of freedom and democracy. They still propose some ridiculous changes which make us think they're headed the wrong way, but as soon as they grasp that the majority is pro or against it they'll act accordingly. So this government doesn't really have confirmed ideas, they rather go with the flow. One thing tho, they work closely with MUSIAD (turkish muslim businessmen association) and work a lot on economy.
This is why current generals would have zero suport if they actually left the barracks for a coup. They really don't have a reason to do so anyway.
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@ 485 Powermeerkat
"Looks like the Evil Empire (U$A) has actually done something right?"
Correct. Everything is relative in terms of time, space, history and politics.
Russia is liberator of Bulgaria. Russia was oppressor, a historic foe of Poland.
As I said earlier, the redistribution of the cards may come after the US will have disengaged from NATO/Europe. Hope that event will not come very soon...
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#495
gf: tell that to "Old Europeans", to use Rummys' parlance, for many average Americans, after reading vitriolic anti-American diatribes, including some here- simply start to demand that we take our toys and go home.
[we have plenty of problems we'd rather dump our taxpayers' money on.]
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@478 CBW
First of all I should thank you for your detailed and sincere comment. Alas, such frankness is typical only to the virtual NET world, kind of BBC Gavin Hewitt’s blog and the like. In real life however, for many (mainly economic) reasons, people are more restraint, at times even hypocrite. I appreciate the fact that the BBC forum (no matter the obvious intention of its organisers to fathom the public opinion on some very sensible issues) gives everybody here present the freedom to take part in the discussions. I guess that in the heart of that phenomenon lies the fact that most people do think that they are anonymous (which is not true of course). Hence, they post what they deem it necessary and right. On the other hand, for the first time in human history (as far we believe to be acquainted with) people from the four corners of the world meet in the net virtually without any restrictions (I deliberately ignore the rules any forum/blog displays before we apply for registration). As a result, an Englishman like you (who, seemingly shares many of your conservative party ideas as far as the British/European relationship is concerned) gets some pleasure in chatting with a Bulgarian citizen who shares the socialist ideas ever since 1970 (the year where I, being a naval cadet at the high naval school of Varna, was invited to join the communist party, which in 1990 abandoned the Leninist theory and joined the Socialist International in 2001; the party was established in 1881 as a social democrat political body by the local pupils of Marx/Engels), and vice versa. In a word, our old Europe has definitely changed, the world seemingly is going to change also. People start chatting as individuals, not as politics, not as some kind of authorised representatives (diplomats and the like). Needleless to say, if things go that way, we must agree that sooner or later the impact of that free communications, the NET makes possible, will influence more or less the foreign relations, the business, the home affairs of each country, etc., first in Europe/North America, the commonwealth, next in the rest of the world…
Next time, I will try to comment your last post in the light of what I believe is something like an acceptable code of secular values, which I do hope you share…
Regards
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@478 CBW (ctnd)
Well, as I promised you earlier, I shall try to make clear my position on several issues you commented last time.
I certainly did not “generalised” at all the mere existence of the orthodox world in the Eastern/South Eastern part of the continent (incl. the European part of Russia, Byelorussia, Ukraine /just the central and the eastern part of/, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia/I mean FYROM, not the Greece province under the same name/, Greece, and Cyprus). That is a really existing world with similar cultures and common church which patriarch (Bartolommeo) is still based at Constantinople (Istanbul). Of course, I must agree with you that the mentality of the people inhabiting Romania, Moldova, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Greece, and Cyprus, do not defer much from the mentality of the Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Austrians, Germans, etc. The Orthodox Church, as an institution, has been separated from the state by the end of the XIX s. The term “orthodox” refers to all those people inhabiting Europe Eastwards/North-eastward of Slovenia/Croatia. True, the faith is common, because the church is common, but nowadays, the term has more likely the meaning of cultural traditions, not of some narrow-minded theological interpretation of the simple fact that all those Christian nations in the East have similar living standards (except for Russia and Ukraine) and similar cultures. To that matter, I must agree that it will be a mistake to put all the blame on all the Turks, as being Muslims, former Oppressors of the Balkan Christian nations, etc. I am aware of the fact that there is in Turkey a social category of highly educated people who share the secular values and who would be glad if their country joins the EU. Unfortunately, the said people constitute a minority (physicians, architects, lawyers, teachers, progressive journalists & writers, many army officers(!), composers, musicians, some members of the court of Justice(!), etc. They all stick to the republican Kemalist precepts, and sincerely believe in the European future of their country.
However, as a whole, the Turkish nation is not prepared to meet the standards of the EU. The discrimination of the Kurdish and other non Turkish minorities, the prosecutions of progressive journalists/writers/politicians, the political support of the Mollah governors of Tehran and of the extremist organizations kind of Hamas, the successful Turkish activities aimed at the establishment of some kind of hegemony over the Eastern Mediterranean are just among the well known facts that come on the surface of the social/political life of that country. If we add to that the poor educational system in the Asian part of the Turkey, the low living standards (which are the main reason for the huge Turkish migration to Germany and to other west European countries), we must certainly agree that Bulgaria and Greece are the countries that serve not only geographically but also politically as outposts of the UE. Turkey, no matter the desire of its political leadership to be considered as a full member of the European family should remain in Asia.
I clearly understand the British interest to have an ally within the EU structures in order to counterbalance the joint French/German leadership when many important issues are being discussed and the appropriate decisions are being taken. But can you trust the Turks? Are you sure that they will always play the British card, even if, by some miracle, Turkey is allowed to join the EU? Knowing well the Imperial mentality of the Turkish leaders /no matter whether they come from the Kemalist circles, or from the so called "moderate" Islamic political parties, I am sure that they will play their own game, the "Turkish gambit"… And that will involve not only Paris/Berlin, but also London into another delicate situation where the Muslim minorities in the UE will benefit from the political support of Ankara, much to the dissatisfaction of people like you and me who still cherish the Christian values as being in the heart of our civilisation. Christianity and Islam are incompatible in their theological/philosophical foundation. Besides, Turkey is seemingly going to abandon the code of secular values it inherited from Kemal Ataturk, and old Europe is not at all a correctional house for that country which much is closer to Asia both geographically and politically.
As to the stance of Nik, that GB was always trying to contain the Russian expansion in the Eastern Mediterranean, I shall allow myself to support him by recalling just two historic facts. In 1878, during the Berlin congress, it was Lord Disraeli who succeeded in revising the results of the successful liberation war of Russia, thus depriving half of the Bulgarian nation of its historic territories and creating the complex “Macedonian issue” which is just another interpretation of the “divide and rule” British policy on the Balkans. In 1854, the British joined the coalition troops during the Crimea war thus supporting Turkey which had already lost her fleet during the Sinope naval battle, and was going to surrender to Russia. In both cases, the British Empire was acting exclusively in its own interests leaving the Christian nations at the mercy of the fate. We certainly cannot forget, nor forgive that.
As you can understand, I am not so eager to win the sympathy of any fellow blogger here present, if it will be at the expense of the historic truth, or at the expense of the efforts my nation made for returning to the European family. I certainly am not extreme nationalist, but (just like) you, I stick myself to the rule “Dieu et mon droit”, which interpretation could sound like this: “my freedom ends exactly at the spot where starts your freedom”.
I deliberately skip the delicate question of the British union. Seemingly, all the Eastern new comers like Poland, the Czech republic, Hungary, Slovenia and Bulgaria count on the support of the UK in Brussels (Romania is the only country that counts on France). We certainly have no interest to see the dismantlement of GB.
If you deem it interesting, we could go on with the discussion. I have not said yet the most important things that made possible our return to the European scene. That concerns both Russia and Britain.
Regards
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Bora, you claimed to be Turkish of non-muslim origins. You talk to us here pretending to be a Turk, so why don't you come out and tell us your real origins? I do so why don't you? I already had unmasked Mr. PacTurk whom I pressed to tell me he was not a Turk but a foreigner that lived there for long, so do the same.
Anyway you have avoided replying every single point and thus automatically have accepted what I said above.
You have again tried to open side issues so again you will be answered in these:
484. At 4:57pm on 23 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
"""And? So are Nazis in 1939-1945, but you don't see people demonizing germany around now do you? You're still stuck on events that happened a century ago, which I don't deny, on any blog subject related or unrelated to greece."""
Failed example. Germany has recognised and apologised for its past deeds. Turkey and ALL Turks kemalists and muslims, educated and illiterate are into this, not only does not recognise the 3 parallel genocides totalling 4 million slaughtered people, but actually it celebrates them and do not lose the chance to threaten to repeat them on any occasion. The invasion, slaughters and ethnic cleansing in Cyprus is indicating of Turkish aggressiveness as well as deep-rooted cultural aspects of Turks.
Then again you are wrong as to my refering to it. Blogs unrelated to this rarely open such a discussion. When we do discuss the geopolitics of the Eastern Mediterranean area, it is bound to include a reference to the genocides which is the flag event of the last 200 years in the region.
"""But if this affects your economy and social life then I suggest you look for answers somewhere else."""
I guess according to you the fact that Turkey threatens with war Greece if it applies its sovereignty is the best selling point to attract serious foreign investment in Greece isn't it?
Anyone again you lost the 1000s of text I have written on how US-Russian games enter into this, again you remained in your poor Turkey's struck image, that is all you care to protect. You really are clueless of what games we are talking here. Try to make an effort to get the bigger piucture and forget for once your little beloved country.
""""Worst news is that the plan calls for the co-existing of both. What happens now is merely the rise of the islamists but in fact what both of them want is a co-existence."
You'd rather prefer they kill each other? What's wrong about a peaceful co-existance? Of course the general expectation, contrary to yours I guess, is that they'll lose their effect and eventually disappear."""
I have absolutely no care of what is going on inside Turkey. I just make the observation that Turks were always muslims and Kemalists have played on that having carried on the 3 genocides in the name of islam. To the minority of 2% of people who could read and write prior to 1920 they would sell the idea of an asi-if turkish nation but for the rest of the turkish or kurdish speaking muslim population of no particular ethnic consciousness they played the islamic card. Kemalists are no new to playing the islamic card, they have always done it. The co-existence of them is not just a reality but actually the main plan. All these inner fights are just to clear the scene in the personal level, NOT in the team level. Turkey cannot survive without getting back to islam. Kurds cannot be played by selling them turkishness but they can be played by selling them islam.
"""Turkey's current rising power doesn't come from military or kemalists or islamists, it's coming from the booming economy."""
Whatever. 15 and 10 years back Turkey was on the IMF now it is booming. If you had more insight you should understand what is going on with these bankrupcies and booms.
"""Turkey came 2nd in economic growth in the world right after China this year and is expected to be in top 5 economies in the world by 2050."""
Oh, in 40 years time? Whatever.
"""But you think USA is planning this, right?"""
US plans include several successive plans and on more than 1, Turkey won't exist till 2050. Are you satisfied?
"""Economy is booming in Turkey cos everybody is tired of endless tensions with neighboring countries. Why fight when you can do trade?"""
Good. Start solving your tensions with Greece by:
1) Accepting the international law
2) Stop threatening Greece with war
3) Retire troops from Cyprus, retire illigal colonists, return houses and lands back to the owners
3) Stop trying to push illegal immigration to Greece (and Bulgaria that is also EU)
4) Stop trying to incite (by money and sending false priests) muslim Pomaks and gipsies to call themselves Turks (both in EU Bulgaria too)
5) Recognise the 3 genocides of Minor Asia and apologise for the 1955 pongroms and the crimes in Imbros and Tenedos
... and other such thingies
See, pretending to have 0 problems with neighbours has to pass from the above. They are not just fair demands, they are the strict minimum for till today aggressive and barbaric Turkey to prove its future good intentions.
"""I was in a trade fair in autonomous Kurdistan in northern Iraq just last week and made many business deals. Nobody I met there (and they were all Kurds) had any hostility towards me or Turks, in fact it was surprising to see so many turkish goods in supermarkets, shops, streets, turkish tv programs on tv with sorani/barzani/dohuq subtitles, and people i met showed great hospitality."""
Your analysis is childish. Saudi people go to nighclubs in London, consume French champagne (despite pretending to be islamic) and have sex with British women. That does not make them European. A part of Kurds afterall were the Ottoman soldiers of the east that fought against Arabs and who perpetrated the Armenian genocide for which they have apologised (but not you). Play them the islamic card and they are yours.
"""Turkey's peaceful resolution request on Iran's nuclear power plant issue is all because Turkey fears it'll lose trade with Iran if an embargo is put in place, just like on Iraq two decades ago where Turkish economy hit bottom."""
Yes. Same with Greece having to deal with an aggressive Turkey. Now you get it.
"""Turkey suffered a lot on trade when Turkey was doing exactly what USA wanted all this time, seperating itself from Syria-Iran-Iraq. Turkey is not doing so anymore and making huge trade agreements with these countries. And suddenly in western media, Turkey's axis is shifting towards fundamentalism/islamism etc."""
You are blatantly wrong. Turkey continues to do exactly what US wants it to do. You are really ingorant of what is going on around you.
"""Despite your conspiracy theories of Turkey being USA's lapdog, Turkey has shown least support for invasion of Iraq, and Turks were claimed to be the most anti-american nation in the world, by USA! Still in US media there are so many comments on how Turkey faced itself towards the islamic middle east when all Turkey did/does is strenthening economy while the whole world has drowned in economic crisis."""
What you menion yourself is actually what you call a conspiracy theory. The reality is that US considers more than ever Turkey as its little doggie in the area and supports it on every single major issue. If Turkey wishes to play the great in the area, that is on the US command for which Turkey is the right tool for the bigger geopolitical games of the area. Turkey alone does not count. Without US support the country will arrive quite quickly on the brink of division. Stop having big ideas about your little country's capacity to play alone without the US support and face the reality.
"""Turkey's southern/southeastern neighbors are booming because Turkey is booming."""
You mean Syria and Lebanon? I do not think their economies depend so much on their relationship with Turkey though if Turkey does well it is better for them.
"""Greeks can take it to the streets and forums all they want, but that's not gonna change their failing economy."""
Greeks do not take it to the streets. Syndicalists or anarchists do. In 9 out of 10 strikes of the last 20 years less than 20% of people participated. There is a huge gap into saying that "Greeks took to the streets".
"""You have milked EU long enough and strangled yourself in EU politics."""
Greeks did not milk. Do not underestimate Eurpoeans. Greeks were milked in ways you are too naif to comprehend. I have already extensively analysed this, yet your hatred for Greeks does not permit you to understand a single word.
"""It's not because of some genocides or kemalists or british agents that your economy is this way, and will stay this way for quite some time."""
Who said it is because of that? Apparently you. You keep mixing the different issues having a hard time to follow the discussion.
487. At 5:09pm on 23 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:
464. At 12:56pm on 22 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"Despite the time proximity of 1919 (year of the arrival of the Greek army in the city to 1923 year of the foundation of the Turkish state), what you say is the the equivalent of saying that Romans invaded and occupied Hungary but the Hungary did not exist back then nor did Hungarians."
"""My child, before rewriting history you should read about how Turkish war of independence started on 19th May 1919."""
What war of independence? The 2/3 of Turkey were occupied by Britain, France and Italy and Turks gathered the 100% of their army to attack the 1/10th that was occupied by Greeks sent there by British. There was absolutely no battle among Turks and Italians for example. Apparently Turks did not mind at all Italians having all south Turkey. The whole case of the "turkish war of independence" was to justifiy the establishment of the Kemalist regime and the completion of the genocides that had started 10 years earlier.
""""Smyrna could not had been occupied by Greeks, a population that had been there for at least 3 times longer in the span of history than the whatever muslims Turks you can count, let alone being the majority in this city Turks themselves called Gavour-Izmir (i.e. Smyrna, city of infidels)."
And Britain was occupied by pagan picts, celts, saxons etc way longer in the span of history than the whatever vikings or normans or christians arrived on the island, your point?"""
My point is that Turks commited the perfect genocide and that they are proud about it and ready to do it again on the first occasion.
"""And my young, Turks don't call Izmir "Gavour", that is hizbullah wannabe islamic fundamentalists that Turkey has greatly taken care of, and them calling Izmir "Gavour" comes from turks in aegean region having a good taste of alcohol and being least bit islamic according to them, nothing to do with greeks. Another myth debunked."""
The do not call it today. Back then they called it Gavour Izmir for the simple reason the city was just another Greek city within the falling Ottoman Empire.
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@499 Nik
"4) Stop trying to incite (by money and sending false priests) muslim Pomaks and gipsies to call themselves Turks (both in EU Bulgaria too)"
100% correct.
Plus: Stop investing in Bulgaria, mainly in regions inhabited with Muslims, or in projects controled mainly by the DPS party (a political mouvement which membership approx. at 80-90% comes from the Muslim regions);
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