Brits seek to influence Europe
"Say No to" is always an easy form of campaigning. "Say No to the euro" and everyone knows instantly what you're about. "Say No to bull-fighting" and you don't need to explain. You've made your point. Quite a few voters in the UK hoped a Conservative government would say "Say No to Brussels". Once in power, or so it was imagined, the Tories would block, stonewall, and fight to take back powers from Brussels.
It was always a caricature and, in any event, the reality of coalition life has tempered instincts. What is emerging is a much more subtle approach to European policy by the new government in Westminster. Instead of shouting "no" from the sidelines the government promises to engage - and engage actively.
Where once the temptation would have been to enjoy the troubles of the euro, now in power the government wishes the single currency well as long as the British are not part of it (and as long as UK funds don't go towards bailing it out).
Some in the Tory ranks favour life outside the EU. The new government won't give that idea the time of day; Britain's economic future is tied closely to the EU. As for retrieving power from the sticky fingers of the bureaucrats in Brussels, that idea has been quietly shelved.
Today the UK Foreign Secretary, William Hague, disclosed more of his strategy in a major speech. Britain would not just be an active player in Europe - he wants more Brits inside the Berlaymont building, influencing the European Commission.
The Foreign Office's researchers have discovered that UK representation in Brussels is declining. Since 2007 UK officials at director level within the EU have fallen by one third. The UK has 12% of the EU's population but only 1.8% of staff in what they call "entry-level " positions within the Commission.
(Incidentally, those figures are described as "plain wrong" by Richard Howitt, Labour's foreign affairs spokesman in the European Parliament. He insists that there are 1,300 Brits in service and that if you take all grades across the EU we are in sixth place when it comes to representation.)
No doubt the figures can be argued over, but William Hague accuses the Labour government of failing to promote the national interest. "It is mystifying to us," he said, "that the previous government failed to give due weight to the expansion of British influence in the EU". He goes on: "so the idea that the last government was serious about advancing Britain's influence in Europe turns out to be an unsustainable fiction".
Regardless of the past, William Hague's plan will be controversial. Bureaucrats in Brussels are encouraged to shed their national clothes. Not all do of course. But the foreign secretary clearly envisages a cadre of UK officials who will work from the inside, confronting unnecessary red tape and working for a British agenda.
On many levels the institutions work against that, but the Conservatives see an opportunity in the current crisis. There are plenty of European officials - and some have gone on record - who see trouble in the eurozone as an opening to pursue their political goals and integrate further. But some of the old certainty and swagger has gone. As the Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman wrote, "no, the real story behind the euro-mess lies not in the profligacy of politicians but in the arrogance of elites specifically, the policy elites who pushed Europe into adopting a single currency well before the continent was ready for such an experiment". Now there are plenty of EU officials who lack a rear-view mirror, but there are real debates taking place about the future direction of the EU.
The era of austerity will inevitably challenge Europe's social model. As countries agonise over cutting national budgets attention will turn to the EU's budget. Some will insist EU institutions cannot be immune. It will be an opportunity for London to have a view and to find allies.
The key to Europe's future lies in finding economic growth. Everything depends on it. With expanding economies the debt mountains subside. The unemployment lines that snake across Europe get shorter. Social programmes are maintained. And again this is where the Conservative - Liberal Democrat coalition sees opportunity. They believe the key to growth lies in less regulation, expanding the single market and reducing trade barriers.
So the Tories believe that in uncertain times they will find allies out there for their visions, particularly from some of the smaller countries, who William Hague believes were neglected by Labour. As I have said before, the new British government will be pragmatic in its approach to Europe, being co-operative when it can be and choosing carefully the moments it fights for what it sees as the national interest. But they don't want to be outsiders; they have chosen to pursue their vision by playing the Brussels system. That was the message from today.
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After the collapse of the Soviet Union the bureaucrats just stayed at their desks continuing to produce reports that everything was just fine. It is the nature of bureaucracies. These entanglements are largely in the interest of big business and banking. When they can not persue the original goals they find other things to meddle in. It is similar to tryng to form a government in Afghanistan. Euro-wide professional organizations are much better at sharing ideas and promoting progess than political organizations.
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Nice piece Gavin. Re your quote from Richard Howitt....any relation? :)
Seriously though, the antagonistic approach to the EU is really not a feasible long-term strategy, IMO, as indeed you point out, Britain's economic future is closely linked to the EU (which isn't going away despite what some pray for). But the Tories will certainly find common cause with others disillusioned with the EU.
There is much to be said for pragmatism and I think the Tories are correct to embrace it with regard to the EU. Take a place at the table and only kick your neighbors leg when it's really necessary.
Re more Britsh bureaucrats in Brussels, once again a pragratic idea. Some might worry about a Trojan horse appraoch to scupper ideas, policy, etc from within. If that's the case that would be unfortunate and I hope that attempt would fail ala the Trojan Rabbit ("Lancelot, Galahad and I wait until nightfall....")
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What's so surprising, Gavin?
Wth Blake, Blunt, Burgess, Hollis, Philby, Mclean and Wilson long dead, there're not many Britons left qualified for EUSSR Comissariat.
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So the Brits want to "influence" Europe and the EU. It costs money to buy influence. What Europe wants in return is for Britain to "integrate" by giving up the pound and adopting the Euro so it can bleed what's left of its treasury into the bailout of club Med. I'll bet there are lots of Germans who would be only too happy to trade places with Britain giving up their influence to get their Deutchmark back and letting Britain take center stage after adopting the Euro in their place.
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As the SS Europia Union sinks deeper and deeper, there are those on board who would be only too glad to toss the anchor at the UK in the hope that they would grab on to it and tie it around its neck. That is because they are as unrealistic about the UK acting as a mooring to keep the Europia Union from sinking as they were sure of its seaworthiness when they built it. And there are plenty in the UK would would love nothing more than to give those poor doomed souls on the Europia Union just such false hope that they would try to do just that. Britain's national phobia seems to be a terrifying fear of being left alone even if it means it would be the only nation in the EU that hasn't drowned in a sea of red ink.
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I remember the previous government closing down the centre for UK diplomats that wanted to land a job in the EU.
I saw Milliband today and he had a point. However, it is simply not true that his government did enough.
I welcome more British initiative in Europe. All of Europe does. It will help mend fences and foster mutual understanding.
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"3. At 4:29pm on 01 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
What's so surprising, Gavin?
Wth Blake, Blunt, Burgess, Hollis, Philby, Mclean and Wilson long dead, there're not many Britons left qualified for EUSSR Comissariat."
I guess you just don't know any better and feel smart while at it.
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The UK has always been under-represented at the EEC/EC/EU in Brussels, because we are so appallingly bad at languages. To qualify for a post, a candidate has to be fluent in two of the community's languages. This is in contrast to NATO, where only one of the official languages(English & French) is required.
My information may be way out of date, being based on how things were 20 years ago, but was correct when I worked for NATO. And, before you ask, I speak 2.5 European languages and can survive in 2 others!
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Although there are many aspects of life in the European Union that can seem strange and overly Bureaucratic at times - there is one thing really worthy of celebration that few ever seem to mention
As a British citizen I have the legal right to live and work in up to 27 different countries. This is unique within the world we live in....
I am happily settled here in the USA where I have lived for the past five years, and last year became an American citizen - so I now have dual nationality. However - if I ever wanted to move back to Europe I now have a choice of all these different countries to pick from.
Much as I love Britain, and as a proud Londoner think that it is the finest city in the world - I am fraid that I simply can't take the British weather any more..... Day after day of interminably grey skies with constant drizzle just isn't something I can live with....
The fact that I do have so many other incredibly diverse nations to pick from is rather wonderful, should I ever need this
I am a little surprised that more Brits don't mention this as a benefit of being in the EU - perhaps there is simply too much of an underlying and subconscious xenophobic stream amongst the populace ?
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"8. At 5:42pm on 01 Jul 2010, Ken James wrote:
The UK has always been under-represented at the EEC/EC/EU in Brussels, because we are so appallingly bad at languages. To qualify for a post, a candidate has to be fluent in two of the community's languages. This is in contrast to NATO, where only one of the official languages(English & French) is required.
My information may be way out of date, being based on how things were 20 years ago, but was correct when I worked for NATO. And, before you ask, I speak 2.5 European languages and can survive in 2 others!"
Ken, I definitely agree with you. Whenever I meet a Briton who can speak anything else than school french (seems to be the most taught foreign language), I almost faint.
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@9
It doesn't need mentioning :-), I think even some of those that self-identify as Anti-EU/Eurosceptic concede that this is a good thing.
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add to my post #10
"...from joy"
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"11. At 6:16pm on 01 Jul 2010, Benefactor wrote:
@9
It doesn't need mentioning :-), I think even some of those that self-identify as Anti-EU/Eurosceptic concede that this is a good thing."
I doubt that they conded this as a good thing, simply because it doesn't just allow Britons to work and live in 26 other countries. It allows those "pesky foreigners" to do the same in Britain. And all 26 of them!!
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Brits seek to influence Europe?
What a title!...For yours god sake don't!
Example1: You've done it to influence the EuroVision. Result? Big success!...At the end every European country sung in English and the Brits? Last places in the voting board...Quite every year.
Example2: You Brits obstinately tried to persuade the world about the PIIGS...Result? Big success!...At the end PIIGS ended like pigs (economically speaking) and you ended BIG PIGS (Britain, Ireland, Great) with VAT from 17% to 20% just to mention something. Now none of your media Bloggers has the guts to make a single "joyful" reference to such word.
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Brit at the gaming tables;
So with twenty-seven European countries to choose from you wound up in the US and have lived here for five years and become an American citizen. That doesn't say much for the twenty-seven countries far closer to home for which you would have made far less sacrifice moving around in to find a niche. And that to do it you traded dreary days of gray skies and drizzle for a place where the sun blazes at 114 degrees Farenheit in the shade and the local wildlife includes scorpions, rattlesnakes, and tarantulas. I knew Europe was not a desirable place to live but I never knew that going to the kind of climate they have in Las Vegas would be such a definitive step up in life :-)
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powermeerkat
Re #3
It is totally uncalled for, inaccurate and a defamation to put PM Harold Wilson's name alongside the nest of of British 5th column Kremlin spies that so basely betrayed the UK, USA & NATO in the 19502s-60s.
From all the available factual & circumstancial evidence there is every likelihood the Chief of MI5 during much of that period was also a spy for the Soviet Union.
Nothing has ever been proven conclusively so I'm unsure You were right and/or the BBC to include that particular name in the list. I would have thought it would be inadmissible to name him on this blog, but that is for the BBC Mods to decide.
I would suggest they look at the list again and maybe delete that 'name'.
Meanwhile, it was PM Wilson's bitter experience to be frustrated at every turn by his Nation's Secret Service when he attempted to have the 'service' investigated for the appalling catalogue of betrayals, leaks & defections: In the 1960s the 'service' was still almost entirely run by the 'old-school/oxbridge tie' elite from pre-WW2 days when it had been fashionable to sympathise at least & support at worst the USSR. Though most of the key Soviet spies had defected to Moscow or like Blunt been 'knighted' & put out to pasture (in his case as the Queen's 'art advisor'!) the top echelon had been so trounced by their KGB opponents they would not countenance further revelations & stalled every investigation. It was argued 'morale' was at an all time low & more exposure of conspiracy-traitors within the guardians of UK 'security' would be counter-productive especially with the US CIA who already mistrusted almost every senior UK Secret Service officer, the 'handlers' of Agents, and those former KGB spies who had defected to London.
It is the sort of argument that suggests there were indeed 1 or 2 more in fairly high posts in the 'service': However, it is also plausible to explain the Intelligence Services reluctance as the 'traitors' were known and had by the 1960s been 'turned' & were operating literally as a triple-agent!
See the roles of the totally loyal and eminently successful UK 'Security Service personnel, Vernon Krell, Jane Sissmore, Martin Furnival Jones, Lord Trend & other high-ranking MI5/MI6 to realise that PM Wilson was a victim of utterly unfounded & clearly planted innuendo.
The 3 times Labour Prime Minister of the UK was a Socialist, NOT, a communist/fellow-traveller, and nor was he a spy for Russia.
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"As the Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman wrote, "no, the real story behind the euro-mess lies not in the profligacy of politicians but in the arrogance of elites specifically, the policy elites who pushed Europe into adopting a single currency well before the continent was ready for such an experiment". Now there are plenty of EU officials who lack a rear-view mirror, but there are real debates taking place about the future direction of the EU."
It`s nice to see a quote from Krugman not taken out of context for a change.
And with this statement he is right, of course.
But I`d still like the media to stop from using the word "Nobel-prize" for awards going to economists. It simply is not the Nobel-prize and used way too often in order to qualifiy a quoted economist who won a price for economists.
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"15. At 6:48pm on 01 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Brit at the gaming tables;
So with twenty-seven European countries to choose from you wound up in the US and have lived here for five years and become an American citizen. That doesn't say much for the twenty-seven countries far closer to home for which you would have made far less sacrifice moving around in to find a niche. And that to do it you traded dreary days of gray skies and drizzle for a place where the sun blazes at 114 degrees Farenheit in the shade and the local wildlife includes scorpions, rattlesnakes, and tarantulas. I knew Europe was not a desirable place to live but I never knew that going to the kind of climate they have in Las Vegas would be such a definitive step up in life :-) "
fair point.
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To Marcus AureliusII (#15)
I love living here in Vegas - and I am not a gambler at all...
I will on occsaion admit to slipping a dollar bill into a penny slot machine when the cocktail waitress is nearby, in the hopes of getting a free beer out of it - but there my flirtation with "gaming" as they like to call it here ends....
A survey in one of the National Geographic mag's associated publications a while ago revealed that this is one of the best places in the country to live if (like me) your are passionately interested in the great outdoors here
Close to us we have Red Rock Canyon, Lake Mead and Mt Charleston, with Zion, Death Valley and Bryce Canyon being a little over 2 hours away. It is only 4 hours door-to-door to get to the South Rim of the Grand Canyon
In addition we have some of the best hotels and restaurants anywhere in the world a stone's throw away - though the development where I live three miles east of the Strip is a veritable oasis of peace, quiet and tranquilty.
As for moving here - my American wife of 9 years was homesick and wanted to move back to the States. She was from LA - but we simply couldn't afford property there, and so eneded up here in the desert. The only thing I miss from Southern California is the ocean, but am very happy to be here and wouldn't consider moving there even if I had the money ....
It's true that for three months each year it is very hot - but you know I'll take that any day over the grey skies and rain of England - where the term "summer" is something of a misnomer!
I have my own pool in my back yard - something I never dreamed I'd ever have - and swim every day during these summer months....
I count myself very lucky to enjoy a lifestyle like this
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#19 Vegasman,
you must understand, the person you replied earlier is a master of sarcasm.
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There is simply 1 rule now to adhere to about the EU:
"Do not become involved."
The Euro and the Eurozone are in a state of collapse. If anyone thinks that the individual members of the EU are going to change their social policies, then sorry...you are not living on the same planet as I am.
The individual countries will continue paying their high levels of public funding.
Any changes will be because they have been forced to change by the EU.
The EU is dammed if it does.....and dammed if it doesn't
Let us all be very clear about the EU here:
It is based on "hippy-dippy land".
By this I mean according to the European Parliament and the European Commission (and the posters you see around the Schuman district of Brussels) Europe is full of happy, smiling people who only eat organic vegetables, and build wind-farms. They love the European Union and sit eating their French bread and cheese in a leafy suburb of France.
Meanwhile the rest of the world is betting on who leaves the Euro first: Greece or Germany!
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I am sure that along with me all the 'pro-EU' are ecstatic that Messrs Cameron, Hague, Clegg etc. intend to 'engage actively' within the EU-Brussels entity.
As Mr Hewitt points out, ".. the era of austerity will inevitably challenge EUrope's social model."
I am quite sure Brussels' various Commission apparatchiks and the most senior exploiters/exponents of centralisation, e.g. Barroso & von Rompuy will just warm to the idea that alongside the 'inevitable challenge' to their gravy-train excesses there may possibly be "..a cadre of UK officials who will work from the inside..".
Those 2 are prime examples of the "arrogance" among EU top echelon "policy elite": The last thing they need or want is for the UK to start getting involved in the day-to-day running and management of the cosy cartels that service EU-Brussels.
I don't know if those EU officials have a 'rear view' mirror; but, one thing is certain they will not look forward to a UK Government that takes its place at the numerous inter-departmental office-get-togethers where the legion of policy initiatives are concocted that all require money spent on exploring & developing the initial idea and fleshing out plans etc. It is such a damn fine job with so many perks & trade-offs & the ultimate beauty of it is that it never actually has to be of any relevance at all! Afterall, there isn't a Citizen amongst the 500,000,000 who has any say on when, where, why, who & what the EU-Brussels money is spent on - - the wet dream of any Civil Service & Political Policy-making elite!
I can see it now: The Expense Claim forms fiasco of UK Parliament will be as nothing to the hugely expensive & time-consuming, re-jigging of all EU-Brussels' largesse in order to avoid the UK Government being informed by its 'cadre' Britain really has been paying through the nose to Continental Europe for the last 2 decades!
Then again, it is just as possible that UK 'cadre' will get sucked into the Brussels' gravy-train system & start to enjoy the perks etc. in the same way as all the rest have done post-Maastricht. That's the post-Maastricht EU where the Citizen's Rights & Responsibilities were enshrined for all to see and know - - numerous documents refer to it - - in fact there's so many no one can find the one where the Citizen can say 'NO'!
Mr Hewitt maintains, "..The Tories believe that in uncertain times they will find allies out there for their visions, particularly from some of the smaller countries."
I maintain the Tories may wishfully think that, but the reality is 17 of 27 EU Member States 'take' more than they 'give' to the EU: Most of those are 'smaller' Nations and then there is France which is wholly subsidised by the EU & Germany.
The 'new British Government' may well attempt a 'pragmatic' approach for the time-being, however within a 12 month it will come to know what every UK Government has known since the time of the fall of the Wall, Thatcher & the EEC - - the EU is not about small 'allies' or 'pragmatism' - - the EU is about serving the interests of the axis-of-ill-intent that runs Brussels, namely France & Germany. At that point Cameron-Hague-Clegg can all find their own 'rear-view' mirrors: They will recall seeing that whether it was 'handbagging-hectoring' Thatcher or 'right-on-Francophile 'Blair' in the Summit meetings the centralising, controlling, supra-national instincts & policies of EU-Brussels and those of the UK do not match-up in any way, shape or form that is condusive to the sound future of either. The 'cadre' will have to be brought home and nothing of import will have changed as Cameron is obliged to either announce a Referendum of a proposed Treaty change or to find a duplicitous way to renege like all his predecessors on commitments made to the British Citizens.
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Hague is following the advice of Sir Humphrey: get inside the EU to wreck it.
Hurrah!
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Englishmaninvegas wrote:
"I am happily settled here in the USA where I have lived for the past five years, and last year became an American citizen - so I now have dual nationality. However - if I ever wanted to move back to Europe I now have a choice of all these different countries to pick from."
No one can truly have "dual nationality" or citizenship as you can not be loyal to two different countries if their interests diverge and they go to war with each other?
So in which country does your allegiance lie? Are you British or American? It can't honestly be both.
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9.Englishmaninvegas wrote: I am a little surprised that more Brits don't mention this as a benefit of being in the EU - perhaps there is simply too much of an underlying and subconscious xenophobic stream amongst the populace ?
The EU is 100% undemocratic and deliberately so. That alone is enough reason to be against it. I personally believe that some of the people who support the EU might do so because they like it precisely becaause it is so undemocratic. Which type are you?
Just try mentioning the word referendum to the EU, they don't like them because they know the peoples do not agree with political integration.
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Gavin,
Emigrating to the USA has opened my eyes to so many things, we are more than 200 years ahead of your fledgeling democracy.
Persevere, understand what it means to be a state within a union, be like me, English and shouting for Germany at the World Cup.
There is so much pain to be endured when you become European, but your grandchildren will respect you for it. Be founding fathers, defy fascism and communism and embrace your European brothers and sisters.
Or would you prefer to put your children in the ground, for territorial jingoism?
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#22 - cool_brush_work
"After all, there isn't a Citizen amongst the 500,000,000 who has any say on when, where, why, who & what the EU-Brussels money is spent on - "
Not true CBW. It is not obvious in countries like Finland and the UK as net contributors but it becomes very clear when you are in a recipient country. Apart from the small proportion of income reserved for actually running the EU institutionally, the money distributed to the recipients is spent by the national governments, which are democratically accountable.
Incidentally, while checking this, I stumbled across a statistic I had not seen before. The World Bank compiles something called the 'Ease of Doing Business Index'. The top four, in this order are the UK, Denmark, Ireland then Finland. Interesting that the top two have one notable thing in common. No Euro.
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"Just try mentioning the word referendum to the EU, they don't like them because they know the peoples do not agree with political integration."
mvr512 - I agree. I just proved you wrong.
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So, good old UK is maybe thinking about rubbing shoulders with Europe, but of course in an 'assertive' way. This is the difference between UK and German politics and actually probably with many other nations politics too - few lies, weniger Schmarn as one might say in Bavaria. UK is going to well NEED Europe once it realises it doesn't pull itself out so easy of a 155B-Pound debt without working for it!
And don't think Merkel is so down-and-out either. That lady will have some useful cards up those long jacket sleeves and they will be played for Germany's benefit.
Nice that the UK news can (painfully?) still acknowledge Germany as Europe's salvation - makes it easier for you guys again eh?
And most Germans I meet seemed to have guessed Wulff will be in anyway, whether wished or not. What else would have worked?
So, let's see how much Mr Hague will be boasting when he returns. My bets are on the German horse - it's the only one with all four legs!
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threnodio wrote:
"UK, Denmark, Ireland then Finland. Interesting that the top two have one notable thing in common. No Euro."
Duh, those four they are four countries out of 204. So out of the top 2 percent we have 50% of using the Euro and the other 50% using two of 178 currencies, thus the only thing you can actually deduct about currencies is that the Euro is a positive thing for doing business.
Or you could say, all top 2% are part of the EU. :)
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The usual ´Much Ado about Nothing´
or ´How to keep the British public under delusions of past (doubtful) Glories and Grandeur´
The days when Britain could throw around more weight than it had -- is over !
Especially at this time of Globalization and its being one of the less financially secure.
Such is the hard reality that no pep-talk can change.
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To threnodio_II (27):
What years report where you looking at? In 2010 ranking the top four are non-European countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index
Besides, there are lots of other indexes that are better telling on what the situation is, for example World Economic Forum competitiveness report 2009-2010 and its index.
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Competitiveness%20Report/index.htm
Anyways, why are we discussing about indexes and rankings?
To jump back to the topic, in my opinion it is good sign that the British government is taking interest to get more British citizens to work in the European Union. In long run by having more British working in the union, there is more knowhow and knowledge in the union to take into account the British way of thinking and doing things, thus hopefully leading to decrease in potential conflicts between Britain and the continent.
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Well I adore grey skies and positively shut doors and put on more clothes when the weird yellow thing appears. Britain is blessed with a gorgeous climate. Sun is everywhere - ty to find a place where it is not.
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Jukka,
I actually knew that...Singapore has been on top for many years now..I just wanted to show how statistics sometimes can say anything you like...
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Jukka - the top 4 EUROPEAN entries of the list are the four named countries.
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"Say No to the Euro"
eh?
He doth protest too much ... methinks. (Ham. 3,2)
Like Gertrude, Gavin and Bill make far too much of being and remaining an outsider and living beyond the pale, out in the cold.
It now seems quite obvious that Bill and his cronies are softening us up to take the UK into the Euro and an ever closer union!
With the EU it has always historically been the Tories that have led the UK forward and Labour have kept us back.
This is the law of perverse consequences that states that only a party that is seen to be viscerally against something can actually do that thing. (Also see Ken Clarke and 'prison doesn't work this week'.) It is the rationality of the pocketbook - I see a vision of Edward Heath sailing 'morning cloud' to the Nation's rational and logical rescue with his boot firmly placed on the neck of the cadaver of Margaret Thatcher!
Never mind, I'll try and get the chicken's entrails back into the bird!
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25. At 9:32pm on 01 Jul 2010, mvr512 wrote:
"Just try mentioning the word referendum to the EU, they don't like them because they know the peoples do not agree with political integration."
28. At 9:49pm on 01 Jul 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"mvr512 - I agree. I just proved you wrong."
mvr512 - I don't agree, it is not up to the EU to organise a country's referendum.
Come on guys, without any polemic, why are there so few countries in Europe with referendums?
Get out of your "PC" cave and say what you really think...
BTW, there is one on Sunday in Bavaria regarding a more strict smoking ban...
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It isn't realistic to believe that the UK will "influence Europe" while it follows a "half-in, half-out" policy to the EU.
No one in their right mind from the other member states will believe a UK Eurosceptic Foreign Minister is anything other than hostile to the EU, so right off this is the equivalent of shooting yourself in both feet and then entering a marathon immediately afterwards.
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#30 - Gheryando
#32 - Jukka Rohila
Yes I know, there are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics and you can make them say anything you want theme to. I figured that out all by myself, Gheryando, so I really could live without the 'duh' bit, whatever that means.
Jukka,
I was using the 2010 figures but deliberately extracting the top 4 EU countries.
Anyway, if anyone wants to check the whole list, it is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index
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BREAKING NEWS
--- 1300 British spies arrested in Brussels ---
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The UK maybe better off focusing on leading by example rather than political maneuvering - but that means making tough decisions rather than just BS.
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@25
"Just try mentioning the word referendum to the EU, they don't like them because they know the peoples do not agree with political integration."
You are aware that many more referendums have been passed for integration than against right? That's not including the referendums on joining in the first place...
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To AllenT2 (#24)
America has a very ambivalent attitude to Dual Nationality (unlike Britain which sees it as a very ordinary and normal thing) - which revealed itself during the Iranian Presidtential elections of all things!
Whilst "officially" not wanting to admit that there was such a thing - there were then glowing goverment reports about numbers of "Iranian-Americans" going to polling booths here in the States
I'm sorry - but the ONLY way that these folk were able to vote in an Iranian election WAS because they held the citizenship of that country in addition to the USA
A good friend and work colleague on mine back in London had dual British-Irish nationality... Noone raises an eyebrow - in fact the only time it was a pain was when he rooted for the Irish soccer team when they were playing England!
National conflicts of interest that you portend seem so very 19th century - I'm sure Bismarck would be right there with you, but I think times have changed
I am inordinately proud of the two countries that I am a national of - I'm sorry that this seesm to cause you problems.....
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43. Englishmaninvegas
hear, hear.........we're all from someplace else. Being American is a state of mind, not where you are born.
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I can't understand how we allowed dual citizenship to happen. It is a disaster for America. If you want to be an American then be an American. If you want to be an Englishman or Brit or Euron, then be that but I think we should return to what we had in the past. If you want be be an American you had to renounce allegience to all other nations, flags, rulers etc. Split loyalty means lack of commitment and cohesiveness. Next thing you know we'll have "Mexican Americans" wanting us to join the two countries in one union. We've already had th spectacle of illegal aliens waving Mexican flags in demonstrations around our nation. The country is also becoming too Latinized. Even President Obama recognizes that before becoming citizens, people should be required to learn English. That should be our national language and used as we speak and use it, not the archaic version used in some other countries where it is of purely historic origin.
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Britain and her global dominance ambitions are still on; long time after the British Empire collapsed. If we take it by population we can see that a country with 66 million people can have a global influence next to nothing. Of course that can change by war or by playing the role of the favorite pet of some big countries (I mean hundreds of million to billions of people).
The decline in British influence and role in the world was something to expect since the British Empire collapsed and there is no other way than loosing more and more influence. Interesting enough some of former British colonies have today more influence than Britain itself. And that's normal if we think that USA has more than 300 million people and India more than 1 billion. I suppose in about 50 years India's economy will be so much more larger than the British one that they can buy the entire British island without having to impose an austerity budget.
OK. What British politicians (Labour, Conservators and so on) do not say is that they all know that Britain future is with and within EU. The Labour at least was honest promoting a pro-EU agenda. The Conservators preach anti-EU but once in power look forward for more EU. I do not trust these guys.
What every British politician wants is that EU be build and organized around Britain. At most they want EU to be a British colony. Since that is not gonna happen what we will get is a continuous fight of Britain to stop EU advancing without following their model. At the end of the road we (normal people) will get: chaos and poverty. So, yes, maybe Britain should decide once forever: - in and constructive; - out and constructive.
About national interest first. That's why EU is gonna fail. If every country puts national interest first (at the moment I cannot condemn them).But as a thought since EU is gonna be a country (European nation) by putting the well being of EU at the same level with national interest first doesn't mean that actually you put as well your own interest first.
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We hve been hearing this wheeze for 40 years - UK still does not want to pull its weight -
just tagging along for the free lunch export markets -
All the enthusiastic commentators here who think the euro is a threat to sterling -
dont expect the ECB to bail you out then with them when pound starts going down the spout -
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@ Allen T2 and Macro:
Nativism is alive and well, unfortunately, in the US and your outdated xenophobic ideas should be relegated to the dustbin of history.
Moreover, like the nation-state is some utopian ideal? Time to move on from the 18th century lads.
If you want the Stars and Stripes tattoed on your chest, go for it! but don't demand that of everyone else.
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44. At 3:17pm on 01 Jul 2010, Gheryando wrote:
" ...
Eupris: Which Austrian radio are u listening to? Back home, we always listen to "Hitradio OE 3". Is that the one? "
EUpris: I am not listening to it. I am reading it. Iss gut, ja?
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The "EU" is still not Europe!
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"Some in the Tory ranks favour life outside the EU. The new government won't give that idea the time of day; Britain's economic future is tied closely to the EU."
EUpris: Britain could still trade with the "EU" from outside.
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The UK can never have much influence in the "EU".
If the UK left the "EU" it would still be the "EU".
If France or Germany left, it would not.
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British opponents of the "EU" should start getting jobs in it.
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53...Like UKIP MEPs?
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" PRAGMATISM " is the key word ; it can have a multitude of meanings .
I think that Hague is diplomatically making all the right pro EU noises . At the present time , when the western world ( Europe and the USA )is facing financial disaster ; expert opinions all assure that there is worse to come ; there is no point in being antagonistic towards the EU .
From reading everyones posts over a time , I get the impression that many Europhiles are socialists if not communists and that joking apart , the EU IS in reality the EUSSR .
Heads are burried in the sand , fingers in ears against an explosion . Nobody wants to believe that Greece is expected to default and may be followed by Spain , Italy and Portugal , as well as Britain sinking with the rest . Yesterday I heard an international financial adviser say that all the European countries should return to their original currencies , before the collapse of the Dollar and the Euro .
However many people Britain manages to have working in Brussels ; there is no way that Germany and France are going to let Britain change the course of developing the EU . The EU has arrived at a point , with so many member states , that it is doubtful it will ever achieve its objective of a single federal state ; it is too unwealdy and financially insecure .
If Hague and the Conservative Party are serious , they will need to watch there backs . Conservative Party voters were not sure enough of the Party's willingness to support their euroscepticism , to give them a clear victory in the May election . In a future election they may lose to labour again .
I think Hagues speech is just friendly hot air , to try to maintain a calm on troubled waters .
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Gheryando wrote:
"#19 Vegasman,
you must understand, the person you replied earlier is a master of sarcasm."
I had rather thought he was its' slave.
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Sounds like a wise strategy by the new British government.
Actually, no one expects anything else from UK than a government that takes care of national interests.
The disagreement breaks out, of course, when these interests are defined and they must be balanced against each other.
When that moment arrives, we can judge about the application of the strategy.
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Sounds dangerously close to an outbreak of common sense in the Tory party. Next they'll be making noises about rejoining the EPP.
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Threnodio
You are right. I apologize for the "duh". My mistake.
EUpris: You still haven't answered if it is OE3. You just said that you are "reading" it but didn't specify which radio station.
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I am thrilled by the overwhelmingly positive responses on the BBC's HYS on whether the UK should be more involved in the EU. A short while ago, this would have been a bashing and sniping. Read it for yourself:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/should_the_uk_improve_links_wi.html
There is hope!
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@55
I think a lot of people would label me Pro-EU and I'm not Communist. I suppose by American standards I could be considered dangerously Socialist but I wouldn't particularly say so.
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# 55,
I'm not quite sure why so many anti-EU posters on this board (and from the UK in general, looking at Farage) feel the need to turn the EU into something 'socialist' or 'communist'. It is not. In fact, the communists are quite against what they see as a neo-liberal construct.
I'll take my country as an example, every die hard free-market liberal is pro-EU. Guy Verhofdstadt is the leader of the European Liberal Group, he's the most EU-minded politican you can find, he even wrote a book called The United States of Europe a few years ago. Bart Dewever, nationalist, extremely free market minded and PRO-EU. Karel De Gucht, EU Commissioner for Trade, Free Market Liberal.
Seriously, stop pasting labels that are in no way appropriate.
P.S. Did you know that the European Ideal on which the EU is based, comes from a progressive liberal free market strain of bourgeois thought? Ever heard of Frédéric Bastiat? Gustav de Molinari?
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This Gavin Hewitt piece, complete with headline, is surely a script for some upcoming TV comic! In the immortal words of John McEnroe, "You can NOT be serious!" Gavin, how firmly is your tongue lodged in your cheek?
There are moments when, as an expat Brit, I really do feel like tossing my UK passport onto a bonfire, and such moments arrive whenever William Hague climbs up onto the international stage as Britain's Foreign Somebody and opens his mouth.
Surely a coalition government that includes former MEP Nick Clegg could have come up with someone looking more the part and with more plausible sound bites! Maggie Thatcher could be called out of retirement, complete with handbag, to read out her Bruges speech again.
As for the number of Brits in the EU institutions here, as someone based for decades in Brussels I can vouch for many many Scots, a number of fine Welshmen and enough able people from the Emerald Isle to keep several Irish pubs in business. It's just the English, now retiring in greater numbers, who find that they cannot be replaced. Something sad has happened to the land of the St George Cross, and that race will not be influencing any other combination of nationalities any time soon.
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buzzardstubble wrote:
Gavin,
"Emigrating to the USA has opened my eyes to so many things, we are more than 200 years ahead of your fledgeling democracy.
Persevere, understand what it means to be a state within a union, be like me, English and shouting for Germany at the World Cup.
There is so much pain to be endured when you become European, but your grandchildren will respect you for it. Be founding fathers, defy fascism and communism and embrace your European brothers and sisters.
Or would you prefer to put your children in the ground, for territorial jingoism?"
What's the difference between the "jingoism" of a nation and the "jingoism" from a so-called European Union that wants to be an even bigger nation?
The "founding fathers" of America didn't create America because of fascism and communism. None of the countries in the EU are fascist or communist.
While I am happy for you that you enjoy living in America Europe can never be like America. The differences are quite obvious. Language being the first major obstacle. Then you simply have cultures that are simply much too different to each other.
American states also do not see themselves as individual countries in a union as is the case within the EU.
The power hungry Europhiles and Eurocrats are so jealous of what America is and has accomplished that is desperately trying to force the creation of its own version of America that I believe will only lead to failure. That kind of motivation alone will doom the effort.
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It is as easy to campaign for yes as it is to campaign for no!
That is "Say Yes to the Euro" is as good a slogan as "Say No to the Euro". It is an absolute logical fallacy to argue that saying no is in some way easier than saying yes. It is the glass half full vs glass half empty argument. Pessimists (and xenophobes and those scared of change) will always say no - optimists will grasp change and say yes. I am an optimist so....
"Say Yes to the Euro"!
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Englishmaninvegas wrote:
"National conflicts of interest that you portend seem so very 19th century - I'm sure Bismarck would be right there with you, but I think times have changed"
The Nazis and the worse wars this world has seen so far came after Bismark.
Countries diverge in interests all the time. They also sometimes go to war with each other.
"I am inordinately proud of the two countries that I am a national of - I'm sorry that this seesm to cause you problems....."
This the oath you took when you became an American citizen:
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.
So I will ask you again, where does your allegiance lie? After all, when you took the Oath of Allegiance you pledged loyalty and allegiance to America. You took an oath to renounce allegiance and fidelity to any foreign state. You took an oath to take up arms to defend America if need be. Was that just an unfortunate technicality for you in the process of attaining American citizenship?
I'll say it again, it is impossible to share true allegiance with two different countries.
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MaudDib wrote:
"43. Englishmaninvegas
hear, hear.........we're all from someplace else. Being American is a state of mind, not where you are born."
We were discussing dual citizenship or nationality.
Being American IS NOT having loyalties and allegiance with other countries over America. All the founding fathers would have strongly agreed! All true Americans would agree!
It is an American shame that America is not forcing immigrants to actually do what the Oath of Allegiance says to do just as it is a shame that America doesn't simply enforce its existing immigration laws.
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I recently graduated from a double law degree in English and French Law and given that I specialised in European public law would love to have a foot into the European institutions. I wanted to go to the College of Europe in Bruges to advance in diplomacy but, in the year I wished to apply, ALL of the scholarships were cancelled. In telling my French coordinator this, her response was "Well, that just shows the attitude of the British to Europe". Given that a degree from the College of Europe costs 21,000 euros, how are we meant to improve high level British representation without financial assistance? I have heard since that the scholarships were reinstated but were not even awarded due to lack of applicants - however, I'm not sure of the reliability of this. Nevertheless, a 'european education' ought to be encouraged and assistance provided for those who wish to take this route. As a final note of interest, Nick Clegg (and I believe his wife too) is an alumni of Bruges which provides an interesting counterweight to a traditional conservative policy on Europe.
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DiscoStu_d wrote:
"Nativism is alive and well, unfortunately, in the US and your outdated xenophobic ideas should be relegated to the dustbin of history."
Why "unfortunately? You are not American so it has zero to do with you!
If I am "xenophobic" then I guess all the founding fathers must have been also. Now if you actually knew the meaning of the word and applied it too what I have said you wouldn't be using such a word.
"Moreover, like the nation-state is some utopian ideal? Time to move on from the 18th century lads."
I'm not your lad, whatever that is. We will continue to do things our own way here in America. Thanks for the advice though.
"If you want the Stars and Stripes tattoed on your chest, go for it! but don't demand that of everyone else."
Tatoos are self-mutilation so I would never permanently scar my body by doing such a stupid thing. But I certainly do fly my country's flag, quite proudly too, as will most Americans come this July the Fourth to celebrate the creation and independence of one of the world's finest countries. And we will not care at all whether you, or any other foreigner, approves or not.
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#65 - John_from_Hendon
"Say Yes to the Euro"!
For years now, some of us have been saying precisely that and arguing that Gordon Brown's '5 Tests' were deliberately designed to be unachievable as screen for him inbuilt prejudice against it. Post 2008, I am not so sure.
Events of the last few months in particular have pushed me towards the belief that the UK may, after all, have been right. The system is patently flawed and, while a single currency is clearly a desirable objective, I am quite relieved that the UK is not subject to quite the same pressures as, for example, Germany in the current crisis.
The old mantra of 'when the time is right' may well be valid and it will not be right until the Euro zone gets its act in order.
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'64. At 10:01am on 02 Jul 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
'The power hungry Europhiles and Eurocrats are so jealous of what America is and has accomplished that is desperately trying to force the creation of its own version of America that I believe will only lead to failure.'
I don't know of anybody in Europe who wants the EU to become the EUSA. Even those who argue for a closer union generally recognise that the EU and USA will always be entirely different; geographically, culturally and ideologically.
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Re #56
Ah! Another percipient non-personalised view of a fellow contributor.
Which reminds me of this little portion of the Swiss philosopher's views of those of us who gather on this Blog at the feet of the master:
30 Oct, '09, "..Don't confuse the 'people' you know with the average voter. You're educated and rational. The average voter gets upset about football & excited about pornogrpahy. We are working with soft clay.."
Just warms the heart knowing how DemocThreat has us all in his purview.
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Hague has shown himself to be no more honest than Tony Blair or David Milliband when it comes to the EU. When he says he “will not let matters rest” or is not seeking “an immediate confrontation with Brussels” he intends to leave the impression in your mind he will eventually do something without ever promising to do anything. In his speech he criticised the last government for demonstrating drift in foreign policy, but he too is displaying the same preference for following the course of least resistance that ends up with the UK being dragged along in a direction set by euro-federalists that the majority in the nation is clearly opposed to.
We don’t want more British eurocrats who will go native inside an organisations whose selection and promotion policies demand its employees support greater EU integration. We want less power for Brussels over our lives. All EU-sceptics must vote in the referendum next year for a change in the voting system, such that the UKIP share of first preference votes in Westminster elections can send an unmistakable signal to Cameron and Hague of why they lose the next election.
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Oh Hello, AllenT2. Still cruising the BBC blogs to make friends and scream about how much better America is than anywhere else, I see.
I notice you question the notion that you are xenophobic. To do this after haranguing Englishmaninvegas about where his loyalties lie and quoting some part of your Oath of Allegiance about taking up arms?!? America and Britain are not going to war any time soon, mate, as much as you'd love to. And while you sit grinding your teeth about how much we supposedly look down on you over here, we generally aren't thinking much about you that much, despite your conviction we're all really jealous.
By the way, a couple of things. You are fond of telling other contributors that America's issues are none of their business, right? well don't bring them to a British blog where the majority of contributors are going to be... British! Go and discuss them with other jingoistic, flag-waving patriots just like you. The other thing is 'lad' means young man (usually meant as a friendly term) not 'friend', and DiscoStu_d didn't refer to you as 'my lad' so stop looking for conflict where there is none.
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#73 - Freeborn John
" . . the UK being dragged along in a direction set by euro-federalists . . "
If anything, I would have argued that, for the last 13 years, the UK has been 'dragged along' with an agenda set in Washington. That it may currently coincide with the federalist agenda has more to do with the Obama administration wanting Europe to 'speak with one voice'. At least now we don't have to choose between Washington and Brussels. They seem to be on the same page.
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#74 - stirling222
I really would not bother if I were you. This blog is rapidly filling up with card carrying Anglophobes whose presence here suggests that they like nothing better to wind us up (in which they fail spectacularly) and the probability that they have been told to beggar off from some other site where the have bored the underwear off everyone for long enough.
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"Say No to the euro!"
Does this sound like Britain is committed to the EU.
"Say No to Brussels!"
Does this sound like Britain is committed to the EU.
Britain apprently wants to “engage” the EU, but from an EU perspective does Britain seem like a country with which the EU wants to strongly engage in return.
Britain wants no part of the Euro, but wishes it well - as long as UK funds don't go towards bailing it out. But what if, WHAT IF, the day comes (which I think it will) that the UK is in deep trouble with its sovereign debt?
Britain's economic future, like it or not, is tied deeply to the EU. The attitude that Brussel officials may have “sticky fingers” may reflect in addition to wanting to centralize financial authority and regulation, the fact that Brussels knows what it’s doing with fiancial authority and regulation - and God help them, too many countries do not.
If Britain’s William Hague wants more Brits inside the Berlaymont Building, influencing the European Commission, then don’t you think he should commit to the EU all the way? Otherwise, it seems to me that Britain wants to shun the cake, but still grab a piece.
As things stand, why wouldn’t UK representation in Brussels be in decline (if it really is in decline, which is debated). All Governmental authorities, including Brusels, want representatives and officials that are fully committed, not half-hearted, maybe want-to-be’s.
Why would it be mystifying that the previous government failed to give due weight to the expansion of British influence in the EU.
"Say No to the euro!"
Did this seem like Britain was committed to the EU.
"Say No to Brussels!"
Did this seem like Britain was committed to the EU.
Why would the EU want a cadre of UK officials working for a British agenda vs a EU agenda.
The era of austerity is what is required; Britian will have it, as well as Greece and Spain. Are Brits too not agonising over cutting national budgets.
The idea that the key to growth lies in less regulation, expanding the single market and reducing trade barriers is (if you’ll pardon me) an American dogma. Take a look: See how well it’s working for the United States.
You cannot chose to be an “outsider/sometimes insider”. You must chose one way or the other – in or out. You cannot “play” with Brussels” because Brussels is too busy trying to rescue the EU (and doing pretty well). You are either part of that fight or not.
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#70. threnodio_II wrote:
"'when the time is right' may well be valid and it will not be right until the Euro zone gets its act in order."
The real point to buy anything is when everyone else thinks it is the wrong time and it is in-fact the right time - in other words to buy in when the price is lowers and that is before the Euro rises (or is it falls?) so much as to make it unacceptably expensive!
There is in fact never a time that is right so any time is in fact right!
In summary: we need to buy in (join) when we think the Euro is about to get its house in order, not after it has done so! Today would be good!
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Who cloned our Pet ´Marcus ´ ????
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#76 Threnodio
Anglophiles --- you misspelled !
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#78 - John_from_Hendon
It is a valid point except:
1. No way are we going to get in under this government without a referendum which will probably produce a 'no' result.
2. The prevalent exchange rate may well make it a good time but it is doubtful that we could use this as the base exchange rate for membership purposes.
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@68 fionab1987
"I recently graduated from a double law degree in English and French Law and given that I specialised in European public law would love to have a foot into the European institutions. I wanted to go to the College of Europe in Bruges to advance in diplomacy but, in the year I wished to apply, ALL of the scholarships were cancelled. In telling my French coordinator this, her response was "Well, that just shows the attitude of the British to Europe". Given that a degree from the College of Europe costs 21,000 euros, how are we meant to improve high level British representation without financial assistance? I have heard since that the scholarships were reinstated but were not even awarded due to lack of applicants - however, I'm not sure of the reliability of this. Nevertheless, a 'european education' ought to be encouraged and assistance provided for those who wish to take this route. As a final note of interest, Nick Clegg (and I believe his wife too) is an alumni of Bruges which provides an interesting counterweight to a traditional conservative policy on Europe."
First off, I don`t mean to offend you personally.
Now:
If anything, Europe needs less lawyers going into politics. Heck, less lawyers in general.
Too many people study law and the consequence is - and I`m not sure why - that like every second politician is a lawyer. In Germany the figures are something around 1 in 4 or 3 in the parliament, nevermind the state parliaments.
They`re like a plague in our politics already.
But where would they go otherwise?
They are a zero-sum game for an economy and there are far too many of them.
So let`s just make politicis, the tax payers will pay! Yaaay ;)
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Hague says that the UK wants more power and influence within the EU. Power and influence to do what, acomplish what? What is the EU not doing that the UK wants it to or what is it doing that the UK wants it to stop doing? Does the UK want to rule Europe? I don't think so. Are there rules in the EU the UK wants rescinded because its own policies would be different? What about those famous opt outs? Having power and influence comes at a price. When you call the shots and things don't work out, you have to help pay to clean up much of the mess because it was created by following what you said. That is what Germany is finding out the hard way.
The UK's position wanting power and influence is the same quintessentially European view that the rest of Europe has and always had. It assumes you get power and influence by some political scheming or by words. The world doesn't work that way. America is powerful and influential as a consequence of what it has accomplished and so power and influence was force on it. It has demonstrated what it can do and others follow because they trust it can do other things as well. What can the EU or the UK do? Not much I'm afraid. They can talk a lot. If words were money, the EU would be the richest place on earth. Other than that, history has demonstrated their natural talents arising from their cultures.
Interesting program on BBC World Service last night. An Indian economist I think pointed out that Britain is a nation in decline. He said it still treats its former colonies in a patronizing way as though it still owned them. That American diplomats and other Americans have expressed the same opinion I have which is that the special relationship is a delusion in British minds, and that with power shifting from Europe to Asia (because that is where accomplishments are happening) the UK has focused far to much on Europe and on America while it has ignored opportunities in Asia. Pretty much what I have said only he put it more tactfully than I care to.
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67. AllenT2
"It is an American shame that America is not forcing immigrants to actually do what the Oath of Allegiance says to do just as it is a shame that America doesn't simply enforce its existing immigration laws."
I agree our immigration system is a farce. I'm happy to see you are a proud American but, your conversation with Englishmaninvegas infers that he must declare who he loves the most. His father or his mother.
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45. At 00:59am on 02 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"""I can't understand how we allowed dual citizenship to happen... the country is also becoming too Latinized. Even President Obama recognizes that before becoming citizens, people should be required to learn English. That should be our national language and used as we speak and use it, not the archaic version used in some other countries where it is of purely historic origin."""
Really? Serves quite right Americans for wishing re-introduing islam in SE Europe supporting the fanatic Kosovars and the treacherous Bosnians who were doing wars employing former US agents (i.e. Mujahedins - what you call now Talibans and such). At least in the US case, the Latin people were there first long before the anglosaxons in Texas and California and Florida and these lands were robbed by the anglosaxons, in a step by step approach. Time to retake them.
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DurstigerMann
Not sure if you know this but one of the main tasks of politicians is to 'make laws'. To study law is thus quite a nice background, wouldn't you think?
(it also teaches critical thinking as well as rhetoric skills)
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88. democracythreat
indeed!
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Britain wants to influence Europe? It already has. By bringing the American investments schemes into the EU where greedy European bankers had the opportunity to participate in what looked like get rich quick schemes Americans invented, Britain helped Europeans face an inevitable financial crisis much sooner than it otherwise would have. Had European banks not been so heavily involved (even more leveraged than American banks, the Euro banks at 20 to 1, 30 to 1, even 40 to 1 while the American banks were only at 10 to 1) the crisis Europe faces today might not have happened for another decade or two. So Briatin has already done its share. Congratulations Britain. I'm sure EU Prisoner and others should be pleased that the tower of babel has been brought down before Britain did something really foolish like adopting the Euro :-)
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Re: "I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince..."
I watched yesterday a broadcast from QEII's visit to Canada which included her parading in front of British, Canadian and U.S. Navies' vessels.
The reporter observed and his camerman showed that on some ships sailors were shoting "Horrey!", on others "Huraah!", on some others still they were throwing their caps in the air.
Only American crews stood in silence and haven't even saluted the monarch.
At which point a slightly surprised rcorrespondent remarked:
"It must be their custom".
Hmmm, well...it is, and has been for over 200 years.
And applies not only to US NAVY.
Surprise, surprise.
NB Even Jose Manuel Barroso is not greeted by a 24 gun salute when he comes to Washington. If you can believe it. :)
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Re #85
Judging by pronouncements by Anna Chapman (the newly discovered - or outed, if you will- Wonder Woman) the person she respected most was her father, a senior KGB officer "in old Russia" - Vasily Kushchenko. ;)
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NIk wrote:
"Texas and California and Florida and these lands were robbed by the anglosaxons, in a step by step approach. Time to retake them."
Organizing such a rebellion would cost a pretty penny.
Perhaps you could send this bag man Kris Mestos our way?
[A fellow pretends to be a Greek and than GIVES large sums of money to alleged U.S. citizens. I think that's what did him in. :)))]
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Except for slaves !
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---and their descendants!
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--and the native Indians !
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-- And their descendants
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---and the Right to Bear Arms, Front Loaders ?
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What's with the jabbering about Americans being xenophobic? I've found Europeans to be much more so than Americans.
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Marcus should have linked the document without the personal preamble.
I got HAMBURGER advertising on the linked page !!!!
HONESTLY !
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I don't get it. Isn't this a British blog about Europe? If so, why am I constantly being bombarded with U.S. propaganda?
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I´ll be satisfied just with Europe !
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97. At 8:00pm on 02 Jul 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
--and the native Indians
No, not native Indians. The Declaration of Independence describes them as "..merciless Indian savages.." - those same people without whose kind and generous help their forefathers just over a hundred years before wouldn't have survived their first winter! Talk of gratitude.
And apart from the black African slaves whom they imported in their millions, don't forget the despised Chinese coolies whom they indentured (not that much different to slavery) to build their railways and wash their dirty clothes for them.
I think these things will eventually come to haunt them, at least if there is some justice in this world. I believe the Chinese in particular have long memories.
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I seem to remember that while refusing the EURO Bliar wanted to be part of the supervising committee, Somebody told him to go jump in a lake. You need to be part of something in order to be able to influence it.
Is Mr Hague and Cameron, doing anything that reminds one of Troy?
UK influence in the world goes from zero to nil. just get out and move to the other side of the Atlantic.
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#104 margaret howard.
I have no respect for those who deny their own history and who through ignorance or denial claim superiority. I feel however that role of some British families in the slave trade should not be diluted by attempting to blame ´Britain´ for the atrocity.
The Americans recognized ´The Crown´ as the source of ´evil ´ many ex-British colonies would probably agree.
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Maggie Mcguire;
"No, not native Indians. The Declaration of Independence describes them as "..merciless Indian savages.." - those same people without whose kind and generous help their forefathers just over a hundred years before wouldn't have survived their first winter!"
And so many of them were. As I recall, had it not been for the pleading of Pocahantis to spare them, her father the chief would have killed all of the settlers in Jamestown.
"And apart from the black African slaves whom they imported in their millions,"
Most of them were bought in Africa by British slave merchants who traded/sold them to British colonists in the colonial south to work the cotton plantations which British had set up as an industry there themselves. The trading system was part of a triangle that included the rum trade, very important to the British navy. Even after slavery was outlawed in Britain, it was a long time before British merchants were forbidden by British law to continue on in the slave trade selling to American. That is the one aspect of the British legacy that the founding fathers could not resolve and so three generations later we suffered the worst war in American history.
"don't forget the despised Chinese coolies whom they indentured (not that much different to slavery) to build their railways and wash their dirty clothes for them."
Not quite sure what the circumstances were about how the Chinese got here but today they are snuck in by Chinese snakeheads who are paid a lot by them or their families to get them here illegally. Sometimes they have to work for free as slaves to pay off those who smuggled them in. At about the time the Chinese got here to help build the railroads, in China Europeans including the British held power and spheres of influence where they literally forced Chinese people to become opium addicts. When they rebelled against this kind of enslavement, they were brutaly repressed by the Europeans. They know their history and have an entirely different attitude towards America than they do towards Europe because of it. You see they were also victims of European imperialism.
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105. At 01:25am on 03 Jul 2010, virtu wrote:
" ...
You need to be part of something in order to be able to influence it...."
EUpris: Not necessarily. If the UK were to leave the "EU" and stop paying for the CAP, they might well reform it 'cos they couldn't afford it.
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To Gheryando:
The website I read is the ORF news site.
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margaret howard wrote:
"No, not native Indians. The Declaration of Independence describes them as "..merciless Indian savages.." - those same people without whose kind and generous help their forefathers just over a hundred years before wouldn't have survived their first winter! Talk of gratitude."
Oh really? So all those different Indian tribes were all peaceful and helpful? Or do you think there was just one big Indian tribe? Let me guess, you are British?
The fact is many were "merciless savages" that didn't hesitate to murder innocent people that simply passed through their territories and murder them in the most horrific ways, including women and children.
"And apart from the black African slaves whom they imported in their millions, don't forget the despised Chinese coolies whom they indentured (not that much different to slavery) to build their railways and wash their dirty clothes for them. I think these things will eventually come to haunt them, at least if there is some justice in this world. I believe the Chinese in particular have long memories."
Those Chinese and black Americans that worked and slaved in early America are long ago dead and the vast majority of their descendants are simply happy and proud Americans.
It is people like you that create, support, promote and perpetuate intolerance, division and racism for injustices that either no longer exist, never existed and were, and are, greatly exaggerated by bleeding heart liberals thinking they are providing a benefit to society.
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quietoaktree wrote:
"--and the native Indians !"
Every American born in America IS a "native."
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Nik wrote:
"Really? Serves quite right Americans for wishing re-introduing islam in SE Europe supporting the fanatic Kosovars and the treacherous Bosnians who were doing wars employing former US agents (i.e. Mujahedins - what you call now Talibans and such)."
So let me get this straight, you are using something that you identify as a wrong but then you are promoting that same wrong against someone else?
So is the concept of right and wrong just a tool for you?
"At least in the US case, the Latin people were there first long before the anglosaxons in Texas and California and Florida and these lands were robbed by the anglosaxons, in a step by step approach. Time to retake them."
They were "robbed?" Apparently your European history books have a different view to ours. No surprise there.
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MaudDib wrote:
"I agree our immigration system is a farce. I'm happy to see you are a proud American but, your conversation with Englishmaninvegas infers that he must declare who he loves the most. His father or his mother."
The father mother analogy is nonsense and has nothing to do with taking a Oath of Allegiance to one country over another.
He took an Oath to defend America, with arms, if necessary, and at the very least if he took that Oath and it meant nothing to him then the value of his citizenship is a sham.
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stirling222 wrote:
"Oh Hello, AllenT2. Still cruising the BBC blogs to make friends and scream about how much better America is than anywhere else, I see."
That particular perception of yours has nothing to do with reality. It is emotionally and defensively based and explains why it precedes the rest of your post.
"I notice you question the notion that you are xenophobic. To do this after haranguing Englishmaninvegas about where his loyalties lie and quoting some part of your Oath of Allegiance about taking up arms?!? "
Some "part," you say? That's funny.
So exactly what does that have to do with xenophobia?
"America and Britain are not going to war any time soon, mate, as much as you'd love to."
Oh I see, so now I wish for our countries to go to war because I value the importance of the Oath of Allegiance? Is that logical?
America and Britain have gone to war twice before. At the very least our interests are not always the same.
"And while you sit grinding your teeth about how much we supposedly look down on you over here, we generally aren't thinking much about you that much, despite your conviction we're all really jealous."
Could have fooled any casual observer of your media and culture. Scary to think what your idea of giving attention to is like.
"By the way, a couple of things. You are fond of telling other contributors that America's issues are none of their business, right? well don't bring them to a British blog where the majority of contributors are going to be... British!"
I respond only to things having to do with America, and that includes Europhiles and Eurocrats, and any other person, that uses anti-Americanism to promote an anti-American superstate that is tricking and forcing free and democratic countries into something they (the citizens) may not want.
"Go and discuss them with other jingoistic, flag-waving patriots just like you. The other thing is 'lad' means young man (usually meant as a friendly term) not 'friend', and DiscoStu_d didn't refer to you as 'my lad' so stop looking for conflict where there is none."
DiscoStu, or anyone else, can answer or complain for themselves if they feel they are wronged in any way. All you are now doing is playing the characterization attack game by trying to make me out as someone that is simply "looking for conflict."
I am also not your "mate." That would never be the case.
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At 8:00pm on 02 Jul 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
--and the native Indians !
Native Indians live in their native India.
Well, except for those who work in our Silicon Valley :)
Your pathetic Columbus was (unlike Magellan) completely lost.
And he never made it to America.
He sailed to Haiti, of all the places.
Which shows what a bumbling idiot he was.
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66. At 10:16am on 02 Jul 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"I'll say it again, it is impossible to share true allegiance with two different countries."
I've had dual citizenship since I was born, and know many people who are in a similar boat. Are we supposed to pick a country and take our oath of allegiance as babies?
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Re #107 "Even after slavery was outlawed in Britain, it was a long time before British merchants were forbidden by British law to continue on in the slave trade selling to Americans."
Their role was later assumed mostly by Arabs, with local African village chiftains delivering "the goods" to the shore under escort.
Pecunia non olet.
P.S. BTW. Slavery still exists in many an African country.
And many a UN official in NYC treates their imported "domestic help" like slaves (as numerous complaints filed in U.S. courts clearly show).
Although in the latter case - those slaves are usually Philippines and Indonesians. :(
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"I don't get it. Isn't this a British blog about Europe? If so, why am I constantly being bombarded with U.S. propaganda?"
Perhaps because many posts in this blog about EUROPE are nothing more than anti-American propaganda?
["People who live in glass houses..."]
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Nik,
I'd like to apologize to all legitimate Greeks with the name Mestos for my earlier mispelling of the name of a KGB/SVR paymaster, who managed to escape from U.S. to Cyprus, from which he allegedly continued to Moscow after skipping bail posted on that island.
Its Chris METSOS. Although we can safely assume it's not his real name.
Again, my sincere apologies.
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Re #114 "I am also not your "mate." That would never be the case."
I believe that's the expression certain Lord Browne (of BP fame) used
during his interrogation.
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64. At 10:01am on 02 Jul 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"The power hungry Europhiles and Eurocrats are so jealous of what America is and has accomplished that is desperately trying to force the creation of its own version of America that I believe will only lead to failure. That kind of motivation alone will doom the effort."
Even if that were an accurate generalization of all those who are pro-EU (and I sincerely doubt it is for all of them) I don't understand how that's necessarily a bad thing? Is it wrong for countries outside of the US to look to it and aspire to recreate something similar at home? Or is there some sort of copyright law that extends to the structures of countries and how they are run? "We did it first so you're not allowed to"? What about the inchoate South American Union, UNASUR? Are they not allowed to as well? Who knows -- maybe the conditions in South America will greatly improve as a consequence of such lofty ambitions, such "jealousy". I would not begrudge them that, but in fact wish them the best of luck.
In the words of the late George Carlin: "Coveting your neighbour's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbour gets a vibrator that plays "O come O ye faithful", and you want one too!"
US competition with the Soviet Union gave birth to the remarkable space age, amongst countless other advancements. What's wrong with allowing new competitors to enter the stage, especially if this time around they can come without the overhanging threat of nuclear war? Who knows what all sides could achieve as consequence. If fair competition is healthy for sports, markets, education, what-have-you, then I see no reason why it can't be for nations (or supranational entities -- whatever the case may be) as well.
Europe, and more recently South America, merely want their musical vibrators too. The questionable ways in which such unions might form is an entirely different matter which I won't get into, but I don't think one should scorn them solely because of their aspiration to achieve more themselves.
(And no, I'm not European, nor South American, and hence have no reason to push either's agendas).
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Every few weeks ministers of the EC move between Brussels and Strasberg. Apparently this situation arose because of the inability of the founders of the EC to agree on where the permanent site for the European Parliament should be. This must surely be a terrible waste of public finances and I would hope that Mr. Hague will be able to take the opportunity to address this with other EU ministers.
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64. At 10:01am on 02 Jul 2010, AllenT2 wrote:
"The power hungry Europhiles and Eurocrats are so jealous of what America is and has accomplished that is desperately trying to force the creation of its own version of America"
It is amazing what you can read in this blog... I wonder, where you are living.
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AllenT2: "So exactly what does that have to do with xenophobia"
I suggest you re-read your posts and attempt to look at them objectively.
You discover someone has dual citizenship, and immediately - and quite aggressively - you start questioning him over whether he would be prepared to kill people from one of his countries in the name of the other. Do you think this is reasonable? You are convinced the world is anti-American, and here you have someone who is embracing your culture and enjoying your country, but that's not enough for you. You want to know if he'd be prepared to kill his former compatriots. You said your wife is Mexican. Do you ask her the same question? What was her answer?
Well vegasman's other country is the UK, and like I said, the two countries aren't going to war anytime soon, so it's not something anyone has to think about. You might enjoy pretending you are living in a pre-apocalyptic world, looking forward to taking up arms to defend your wonderful country against evil foreign invaders, but the rest of us prefer to focus on actual issues.
As for anti-Americanism, you must enjoy it. You can hardly complain about it when you come on here acting like an aggressive stereotype, sneering at anything European (particularly British). Did you ever consider it is attitudes and intolerance like yours that help fuel any anti-Americanism that exists?
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Powermeerkat
Re #91 & no salute by US Navy to QEII in Canada.
Not quite accurate: The US Naval personnel stood on parade as the Royal Flotilla passed by.
Accurate: It has been the US Armed Forces practise for a very long time - - however, on 'State' occasions when the Royal Family visit the USA they are saluted etc. as is the normal custom for any Head Of State.
Somehow, I don't think the Queen was at all flustered by the non-waving/hurrahs etc. by the Americans - - Canada arranged the visit for its celebrations & the 20 or so ships of the various Navies were afterall, also there at Canada's invitation - - the UK has remained the USA's staunchest ally over the last 2 decades and I doubt very much US- UK relations are affected by the affectation of servant-to-none by US Naval personnel on this or any other occasion.
Incidentally, Canada is one of 60+ Commonwealth of Nations members: Its a worldwide organisation concerning links for politics-trade-science/technology-education-health-people exchange etc. All the sort of stuff that brings greater insight & respect to those involved: Should the USA ever find itself with even fewer real international friends than it already has I'm sure an application to join would be considered in a positive manner!
The UK has loyally supported the USA and at such times as these with the USA in need of every assistance it is only right the UK continues to extend the hand of friendship... which is a lot more than the conniving EU'S Msr le President de Commission Barroso will ever bring to a table of negotiations within Washington - - saluted or otherwise!
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allent2:
"I respond only to things having to do with America, and that includes Europhiles and Eurocrats, and any other person, that uses anti-Americanism to promote an anti-American superstate that is tricking and forcing free and democratic countries into something they (the citizens) may not want."
This is written without a hint of irony. This typically awesome combination of hard core patriotism and 8 year old world view is the most striking thing about US nationalism.
But we ought not read too much into these comments. The internet is the internet, after all. I would guess allent2 is around 12 years old. He is just a kid who feels he is serving his country by waving the flag on an international blog.
When he becomes an adult, these feelings of love for the state will be replaced by questions, and in any case he may develop a more dignified way of deporting himself in public.
We should not judge america on the basis of allent2's simplistic rants. While it is true that the USA has a huge percentage of fundamentalist christians and an even larger percentage of people who've never owned a passport, and while it is also true that their system of corporate controlled representation is no more democratic than the EU, we ought not forget that there are over 300 million folks in the USA.
A lot of them are very intelligent, very kind people indeed.
Nationalism is just ugly. Like racism or religious fundamentalism, it appeals to the weak and the frightened, those who are inclined to lash out if once they feel they are in a secure place, protected by a larger power.
The nationalist hides behind the "big brother" of the state, and from that position of security begins to strike out at those he is too frightened to engage with on his own.
Pity the rabid nationalist before hating him, because these people are not big enough or dangerous enough to hate.
The really dangerous people are not the pre-pubescent flag wavers and the amateur provocateurs, but rather the suited men and women whose families have large government contracts in a large centralized state. And the bitter irony for allent2, were he intellectually fit to comprehend it, is that this class of people, who deliberately cultivate idiot nationalism in other families in order to sustain their privately owned family empires, originated as a European concept before taking root in the fertile soil of the average american mind.
A second irony is that the people from these families are always beyond nationalism themselves. They are wealthy enough to travel, they nearly always speak many languages, and very rarely do they marry someone from their own country. Because nationalism is just so incredibly boring.
I wonder what allent2 makes of the british queen, as she tends her firm's nationalistic base. Does he know her family name is Battenburg? Does he understand how the royals of Europe are all interrelated, and how their banks are also part owned the new breed of US aristocrat?
No, of course he does not. He sees the world in the simplistic "good vs evil" terms of the eight year old who yearns to watch "Predator vs Alien" and thrill to the exciting explosions.
So I put his mewling down to the folly and exuberance of youth, and refuse to judge all the people who live in the USA on that basis. After all, there is as much childish foolishness demonstrated on this blog by native Europeans. I would consider it unfair to be judged myself on the basis of that writing.
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I was wondering on why it seems that the new Tory lead government, from the voices and actions it has taken, seems to be more pragmatic and rational, more friendly with the European Union and the continental Europe, than the previous Labor administration had been. I wonder even more because before the elections and before the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, Tories and Tory leadership were issuing hard anti-Europe rhetoric - Why have they made 180 degrees turn in such a short time?
To cut short, I believe that the new British government is actually in full crisis mode, preparing for an worst case scenario to happen. The reason I speculate that things are so is attributed to several reasons...
1) British budget deficit is big - If the government cuts it by cutting spending quickly, there will be a recession. If the government doesn't cut spending, but issues more money, i.e. quantitative easing, the value of British Pound will go down.
2) British trade balance is still in deficit even thought the Pound has lost considerable amounts of value against both the US dollar and the Euro.
Then there is a more fundamental shift in economy...
3) Britain in few years time is going from net exporter of energy to net importer of energy, meaning that the that trade deficit will grow even more without drastic change.
And then there is the surprise element...
4) BP oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico and the possible bankruptcy of the whole corporation. For details, take a look to this article: SULTANS OF SWAP: BP Collapse Potentially More Devastating than Lehman! http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article20778.html
In my opinion, the first three points the government could manage and deal in time, but the fourth point makes this whole situation impossible to deal with. The reason why it becomes impossible to deal with is because the government can't solve it by printing more money due to...
A) The damage is happening in the US where the legal tender is US dollars, thus for the government to bailout BP they need lots of US dollars that they can only get from the markets.
B) Bankruptcy or bailout of BP would affect strongly British pension funds as 1.5% of their assets are in BP. It would also affect industries that contract and supply products and services to BP, manifesting as job cuts and bankruptcies.
The worst case scenario of all these four points is another economic and financial crisis in Britain that could and would lead into a bank run causing both the British Pound and economy taking a serious disruption.
Now maybe things will work out, maybe things don't become so bad, but if they do, then it would be a major economic and political crisis and to sort it out, the British government would need all the help and support from anywhere they could. Now if my guess is correct, in recent future we will be seeing the British government becoming more and more friendly towards the EU and their European neighbors, after all where else they are going to get support, Americans and Obama administration for certainly is not going to give it to them.
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In #123 Mathiasen wrote:
"It is amazing what you can read in this blog... I wonder, where you are living."
Below a sea level, perhaps?
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"The US Naval personnel stood on parade as the Royal Flotilla passed by."
Have you seen a video?
Standing with one's legs apart and one's hands behind one's back can hardly be described as standing at attention.
But then, QEII is about to retire, with QMII raplacing her.
[Unless you're referring to one of them German Coburg-Gothas]
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Re #127
I guess Gulf of Tonkin Incident, may, in the context (a hurricane season has already begun) prove to be peanuts in comparison to ramifications of Gulf of Mexico Incident.
[no brownie points for Brownie, methinks]
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I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European.
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AllenT2
Re #126 & the previous assaults by those who 'know' American (& incidentally British) 'history' so well that it transforms their overall knowledge of the World into weird fantasies where only 'english-speaking' peoples ever did any wrong!
Thus MHoward goes on at length about the exploited 'Chinese coolies' of the USA completely overlooking the basic fact those Chinese whilst very poorly & at times cruelly treated in the USA still had a better life than most of their millions of counterparts in 18th/19th century China!
2 wrongs don't make a right, but until the 21st Century the descendants of those 'coolies' were expedentially enjoying a better life than anything China had to offer its peoples!
Then, of course, we come to the Swiss domeciled philosopher's contribution!
I know it will be hard for You, but, You have to feel sorry for the chap:
His last flirtation with reality was some hundreds of posts ago. You only have to look at the tediously self-indulgent lecturing content of his #88: Lawyers make money from the Government & the people!
WOW! DOUBLE-WOW!! We, none of us could have possibly figured that out until he had written '22' Paragraphs to inform us all of how it happened!
This guy's contempt for the knowledge, experience and understanding of all fellow contributors exceeds anything ever before read on these Blogs.
So, You will also be pleased to realise DemocThreat has placed on record he 'never personalises' comments.
Which means if You took any of the following from his #126 as a personal attack upon You then You are entirely at fault for not recognising the superiority of contribution made by him:
"..I would guess AllenT2 is around 12 years old.."
"..Pity the rabid nationalist before hating him.."
"..The bitter irony for AllenT2, were he intellectually fit to comprehend it.."
"..does he understand how the royals of Europe are all inter-related?"
"..No of course he does not... he sees the world as simply good vs evil.."
"...so I put his mewling down to the folly and exhuberance of youth.."
Now AllenT2, I know and everyone reading #126 will appreciate every one of those snide, sneering, unfounded & unpleasant attacks upon Yourself was for Your own good because REMEMBER, DemocThreat never, ever gets "..personal"--- he wrote #126 to improve Your mind and is prepared to accept the burden of going on doing so for all the rest of us.
Oh and by the way: On May 30th 2010 at 9.10a.m DemocThreat wrote this, "..I am not anti-English or anti-American..".
I know, it sort of brings a lump to the throat, doesn't it!
Isn't it great for this Blog that DemocThreat is there to assist us all!?
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Bombast;
America was not "in competition" with the USSR, it was at war with it. The outcome was to decide what possibilities would or would not exist for the entire human race. That war had to avoid direct military conflict or all humankind would have come to an end. Instead the war was fought militarily by proxies in which the US often received little support from its so called allies all of whom were more vulnerable to the consequences of Soviet world enslavement had the US lost. Vietnam was a prime example of that betrayal.
As I have pointed out many times, you can't copy something you don't understand. And when it comes to the United States of America, Europeans are clueless. I sometimes wonder given our sorry state of education whether even most Americans still understand it.
Why do people discuss America here? Because America is the engine whose drive train is the prime mover for the rest of the world. People talk about the G2 but in reality there is only a G1. There is the US and then there is the rest of the world. The numbers while impressive hardly tell the whole story nor is it easy to understand even the implications of the numbers. With 5% of the world's population, the US controls 28% of its wealth. Much more than money or military, the US is the prime engine of technology, of culture, of agriculture, and is a reliable quiet bastion of internal peace and stability in a world in perpetual conflict and chaos. That is why its currency is the world standard.
The US doesn't have to go to war with Britain. It's a war Britain lost a long long time ago. It lost beginning at Lexington and Concord and ending at Brenton Woods which was the instrument of surrender.
European economies became wealthy by stealing most of what they had from their colonial slave subjects. When that ended following two world wars the Western Europeans lived off the generousity and investment of the US which made enormous sacrifices on its behalf having seen two of history's most horrific bloodbaths in just two generations on the continent of Europe with every prospect of a third one looming. The USSR subsidized its Eastern European external empire and its internal empire but to a much lesser degree owing to its own economic impovrishment. After the war with the USSR ended, the US pulled back marginally. Globalization was about leveling the playing field the US had tilted strongly in Europe's favor to make it prosperous enough to survive the cold war without major defections.
Left to its own devices, Europe has reverted true to form. The US no longer has common interest with Europe except in the war on terror about which Europe is at best ambivalent and where there are many who still wish America ill. Ignorance of and intense jealousy for the United States for eclipsing Europe so completely and undeniably has motivated people who have hated each other for thousands of years, who bear grudges against each other centuries old to try to unite to form some sort of competing confederation. With this single minded purpose and with no real regard for but merely lip service to the enormous difficulties, implications, and perils of such an undertaking, it is small wonder that the European disUnion has fallen apart, is bankrupt, and in dire straits of political and social as well as economic collapse.
The economic recession in the United States has accelerated a process of economic collapse in Europe that was inevitable anyway and has revealed the myriad weaknesses and fractures within the EU. The entire "project" is on the verge of abject failure. And that is how it should be because its real purpose was not to build something of value at all or it would have undergone the most intense analysis, scrutiny, and careful fine tuning by those who conceived and managed it. Instead it was hastily cobbled together as an economic alliance to engage the US in combat or as deVillepin and Chirac put it countless times to challenge the US by creating a multipolar world. It is small wonder therefore that it was so ill conceived and poorly constructed that it never had a prayer of succeeding. Now all that's left for America to do is watch it fall to pieces and gather whatever scraps such as market opportunities it leaves in abandonment for others to gobble up.
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CBW, I am intrigued by your method of operation.
Evidently you feel that if you sneer at me for a sufficient duration, your own intellectual capabilities will be improved.
Is that a British thing?
As for your comments regarding the ways in which the legal profession have hijacked the political economy of the westminster model of representation, you flatter yourself without legitimacy.
You did not understand the processes which I described, and nor are you capable of articulating them. They are reasonably highly specialized, and your self aggrandizing contempt is ridiculous. You are fooling nobody. You do not understand these things, and you do not bother to write anything informative yourself.
All you have is a proud sneer at those you see as below your high rank. You contribute almost nothing to this blog, in terms of material content.
It is becoming exceedingly boring, an we would all be better served if you could try and write something informative, rather than pouring out your bile in an effort to dominate.
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#124 - stirling222
To which I would add that my late wife was a dual national (US by birth, UK by marriage before the rules changed) and, when she became seriously ill, the UK system provided her with all the free medical treatment and, when she became disabled, appropriate benefits applicable to any UK citizen who paid the National Insurance contribution. It is not just a question of who you are prepared to die for. If you voluntarily buy into a system, why should you not be entitled to citizenship?
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Powermeerkat
Re #129
Yes, I saw the news reports of SKY, BBC World & France24.. all showed much the same, so I imagine it was a pooled news-video item.
Totally agree with You: Which is why I wrote "..on parade.." which is the correct terminology for that stance (not to be confused with 'at ease').
A 'salute' would be at 'attention'.
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threnodious #135
"#124 - stirling222
To which I would add that my late wife was a dual national (US by birth, UK by marriage before the rules changed) and, when she became seriously ill, the UK system provided her with all the free medical treatment and, when she became disabled, appropriate benefits applicable to any UK citizen who paid the National Insurance contribution."
Perhaps if she had been treated in the United States by a far more capable although more expensive medical system, she might have lived and recovered.
"It is not just a question of who you are prepared to die for."
Evidently. It appears to be much cheaper to die in Britain than to survive in America.
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Mathisaen
Re #123
No more "amazing" than what one can "read in this Blog" & surmise about where people live who point repetitively to the wonders & beneficence of the EU-Brussels entity, & in the process often refer to North America, the British Isles etc. with ill-disguised contempt or alleged cultural superiority.
Then again, one can also read on here the mad-greek slamming almost the entire World, QOT proclaiming the brilliance of Germany over the rest of EUrope, MAII condemning the Brits-Europeans whilst wrecking America's image, and of course DemocThreat at great personal sacrifice and in uninhibited length informing us all of the wisdom of a country that makes clocks & chocolate whilst banning minarets!
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#133 - MarcusAureliusII
"Vietnam was a prime example of that betrayal".
WHAT?
Vietnam was probably the most stupid, ill-considered, irresponsible and pointless conflict of the post war period. It cost countless billions of dollars and God knows how many lives and injuries in the cause of Kissinger's Domino Theory or the Brezhnev Doctrine - call it what you will, it is the same thing. In the end you were roundly beaten by vastly inferior forces because your collective heart was not in it.
There are two terrible ironies in what you post. Firstly, to blame your defeat on the 'betrayal' of allies who had more sense than to become involved in an unwinable war is simply to go into perverse denial of your own strategic failings and, secondly, it is to ignore the real significance for you as a society. It was America's coming of age. It was the critical moment when you finally understood that you were not invincible. And because many thousands of African American vets returned unwilling to revert to being second class citizens as their fathers had after WWII, it can be said to have been the catalyst for the civil rights movement.
As an exercise in foreign policy it was misguided, as a military exercise, it was an unmitigated disaster but as the driving force for domestic change, it was a God send.
And you accuse you allies of betrayal? This time, in terms of sheer hypocrisy, you excel yourself.
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Re #134
Me! "..sneer..!
No, no, I couldn't possibly do that... not when You have shown complete competence & clarity of purpose in the 'art-of-the-sneer'.
You "..intrigued.."!
No, no, not when You couldn't possibly bring Your self to consider that You were not above reproach.
'Thus do I ever make my fool my purse,
For I my own self-gained glory should profain,
If I would time expend on such a snipe!'
Believe me, it gives me no pleasure, no pleasure at all because I know just how grievously You try on behalf of us all, believe me I do, I really, really do.
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131. At 11:56am on 03 Jul 2010, mivadar wrote:
"I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European."
1) Not as long as large numbers of continental policemen are sick, stupid, arrogant, vicious, big-mouthed, fascist monkeys.
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131. At 11:56am on 03 Jul 2010, mivadar wrote:
"I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European."
2) Not as long as we are living under the rules of the Lisbon Treaty , the imposition of which demonstrated clearly that the "European project" is essentially fascist.
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131. At 11:56am on 03 Jul 2010, mivadar wrote:
"I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European."
3) Not as long as being part of the "EU" means that British people who cannot retire until they are 65 or 66 will be financing the much earlier retirement of people in other countries.
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131. At 11:56am on 03 Jul 2010, mivadar wrote:
"I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European."
4) Not as long as being "European" means constant interference, dictatorship, arrogance and waste of our money by worse-than-useless people in "Brussels".
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"134. At 12:33pm on 03 Jul 2010, democracythreat wrote:
CBW, I am intrigued by your method of operation.
Evidently you feel that if you sneer at me for a sufficient duration, your own intellectual capabilities will be improved.
Is that a British thing?
As for your comments regarding the ways in which the legal profession have hijacked the political economy of the westminster model of representation, you flatter yourself without legitimacy.
You did not understand the processes which I described, and nor are you capable of articulating them. They are reasonably highly specialized, and your self aggrandizing contempt is ridiculous. You are fooling nobody. You do not understand these things, and you do not bother to write anything informative yourself.
All you have is a proud sneer at those you see as below your high rank. You contribute almost nothing to this blog, in terms of material content.
It is becoming exceedingly boring, an we would all be better served if you could try and write something informative, rather than pouring out your bile in an effort to dominate."
I agree. His contribution have become much more like EUpris or MAII etc.. He used to have good arguments and defend them. Unfortunately, his elitist tendencies are increasing while his arguments loose their intellectual punch.
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131. At 11:56am on 03 Jul 2010, mivadar wrote:
"I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European."
5) Not as long as being "European" means being in apolitical union with the peoples who gave the world Marxism, Fascism, the Inquisition and "Papal Infallibility"
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Re: No.5 . Sorry, I forgot the Mafia!
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131. At 11:56am on 03 Jul 2010, mivadar wrote:
"I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European."
6) Not as long as being "European" means being in a political union with peoples who have a greater tendency to dictatorship, fascism and corruption than the British.
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131. At 11:56am on 03 Jul 2010, mivadar wrote:
"I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European."
The "EU" is not Europe. I di identify as "European" butr the "EU" makes doing so more difficult for me.
Re: "international stage." I am not that interested in having influence on the international stage when we have none in our own country.
The Lisbon Treaty imposition has shown that the people of the UK have no influence on the "EU". They can therefore have no influence on the "international stage" through the "EU". The anti-democratic clique who control the disgusting "EU"-Rubbish/Dictatorship might have some influence. We are their pawns, cannon-fodder, slaves etc. Cooperating with them can only encourage them. They are quite happy to act against our wishes to suit themselves. This "European cooperation" is worse than none at all although that is not the realistic alternative.
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Re #136 cool_brush_work
I still cherish an old video of US sailors standing at attention on board of USS "Missouri" while Douglas McArthur orders men in tails, stripe pants and top hats in hands, without even looking at them:
"Let the representatives of the Empire of Japan sit in places designated!"
[If you're ever in Hawai - "Missouri" (now a floating museum) is anchored in Pearl Harbor, very close to USS "Arizona" Memorial.]
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threnodio_II wrote:
"Vietnam was probably the most stupid, ill-considered, irresponsible and pointless conflict of the post war period. It cost countless billions of dollars and God knows how many lives and injuries in the cause of Kissinger's Domino Theory or the Brezhnev Doctrine - call it what you will, it is the same thing. In the end you were roundly beaten by vastly inferior forces because your collective heart was not in it."
Well I don't know if that analysis holds.
There are two perspectives I feel one needs to consider when analyzing the outcome of the vietnam war. The first is that of those who believe in the existence of a military industrial complex within the US political economy. The second is the widely publish doctrines of the US formal military establishment.
The first is easy to deal with. A lot of people made a lot of money supply munitions and services to the US military in Vietnam. The cost of the borrowing alone made billion of dollars for the shareholders of the privately owned institutions who lent the money for the butchery.
But the second aspect is often overlooked, and that is curious. If you consult the formal doctrine that was the official rational for the war in vietnam, the idea was essentially expressed as "the domino theory".
That doctrine stated that if the spread of communism was not stopped in Vietnam, then the small states of south east asia would become communist one by one, toppling like dominos in succession.
So the doctrine was to make an example of vietnam, and make sure the people of south east asia understood that the west was absolutely not going to tolerate communist revolutions in their client states.
So that "domino theory", or doctrine, was very widely stated and understood at the time. It wasn't some secret plan, hatched n back rooms. Any history book will make extensive reference to it.
And, in those terms, was Vietnam not a resounding success? I mean, how many other south east asian states were toppled by communist revolutions after vietnam? The answer is none.
The pattern bombing of civilians in Cambodia and north vietnam, the wanton and wholesale butchery of the rural population by airpower, achieved its stated aims. It certainly made an example of vietnam. Everyone else got the message, loud and clear. Arguably, those who wished to formulate communist revolutions in other south east asian countries had an impossible task convincing the local populations that it would be a good idea to side with the communist bloc against the USA and company. You might be able to preach the supposed fairness and human rights benefits of glorious communist paradise, but when people understand that the B52's will soon be raining down hell on earth upon them, they pause for consideration of their options.
So this idea that the USA "lost" vietnam is a bit far fetched, in my view. The USA never wanted to set up an imperial style government in Vietnam. If they had wanted to, they could have done so much earlier.
Ho chi min actually applied for political sponsorship from the USA not less than 3 times in the decade preceding his conversion to orthordox communist principles and sponsorship. The USA rebuffed his advances because they were playing a delicate and important diplomatic game in Western Europe after the second world war, and they decided they could not outrage the french by taking on the concerns of revolutionaries in french colonies (as vietnam then was).
So casting the US as some kind of imperial power who sought to take over and control vietnam is simply not accurate. It wasn't their formal doctrine, and it is not how the USA "roll" in any case.
In my view, all the americans who set out to "fight" in vietnam achieved their aims convincingly. Those who were in it for the money made a vast amount of money. Those who set out to halt the spread of socialism in south east asia also achieved their aims.
As curiously, and perversely depending on your taste, the "artists" in the USA also did extremely well from the war. Somehow they were able to revel in angst and claim that they "lost" the war. They were able to portray themselves as the real victims, and thus swim in the soothing waters of self pity and glorious sacrifice.
Vietnam was a great war for everyone in the USA, except the soldiers who were conscripted to fight it. It was a resounding success.
It just depends which perspective you look at it from.
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"In the end you were roundly beaten (in Vietnam) by vastly inferior forces".
What a bunch of crap.
The Tet Offensive was an unmitigated disaster for Hanoi.
(Despite our GIs fighting with one hand tied to their backs]
Vietnam War was lost on the DOMESTIC front, due to protests of people half of which don't even remember participating in them having been so stoned at the time.
Nota bene, South Vietnam was occupied only after the Communist North treacherously violated Paris Agreements and invaded it.
BTW. Have you been to Vietnam...lately? [I have]
Oh what a success story it's become under Commie regime. ;)
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threnodious;
First of all, an historical fact, the Domino Theory predates Henry Kissinger's arriveal on the world stage by over a decade. I recall studying it in grammar school during the Eisenhower administration. It may have been advanced during the era of John Foster Dulles or even during the Truman administration for all I know. There was good reason to fear Communist takeover of all of Southeast Asia. The process of Communist expansion seemed difficult or even impossible to stop at that time.
"In the end you were roundly beaten by vastly inferior forces because your collective heart was not in it."
"Firstly, to blame your defeat on the 'betrayal' of allies who had more sense than to become involved in an unwinable war is simply to go into perverse denial of your own strategic failings and, secondly, it is to ignore the real significance for you as a society. It was America's coming of age. It was the critical moment when you finally understood that you were not invincible."
America's lack of invincibility did not begin with Vietnam, it began with Korea, even with the concessions to the USSR in Eastern Europe at the end of WWII and even at Yalta. The entry of America into war without the committment to win at all costs was a new phenomenon that had never been seen before. MacArthur was dead right to want to use nuclear weapons to stop the Communist Chinese and the USSR from winning in Korea. And Truman fired him for it. It set the pattern for the entire American military strategy since WWII with its shiboleths forbidding all out efforts at victory and self imposed restraints defined in those horrible and useless Geneva conventions. But even without nuclear weapons, the US could have won in Vietnam in a matter of days by simply leveling Hanoi, Haiphong, and all of the physical infrastructure of North Vietnam. Without massive military and other aid pouring in from the USSR and China by rail, sea, and air, and without a way to function as a society within North Vietnam due to lack of electricity, water, sewage, gas, and other necessities of a functioning society, the North wouldn't have stood a chance, it would have folded like a cheap tent. Also the sanctuary granted for so long to the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese troops in Cambodia was one more sign that the US was not prepared to pull out all of the stops to win. It is making exactly the same mistake in Afghanistan and Iraq.
BTW, what Kissinger and Nixon did engineer was modern China. I'll bet there are few who even remember and certainly not in China that it was their visit in 1973 and their decisions that made it possible for the US to invest in China to create the modern industrial state it is becoming and to leave its failed collectivist agrarian society far behind. But China has many problems and among them the same mistake Europe made. It thinks it did all this itself on its own initiative. Ultimately it is as doomed as Europe is.
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I don't see any anti-British sentiment except for a few bloggers. One has only to observe American commercials. If the actors or not African American there is a good chance they are British. There is a green lizard character that speaks with a British/Australian accent. Business TV host from Britain. The new spider man is British for heavens sake.
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MudDib
I am finding the sound of British accents increasingly irritating and grating on my nerves. Once a quaint rarity, hearing it constantly lately has made me far more appreciative of just how melodious the US Southern accent is by comparison and how I overlooked it. I'd rather hear almost anything than English spoken with an English accent, any English accent of no matter which class or region. "I'd rather hear a choir singing flat. Chickens cackling in a barnyard." I now regard it used in advertising as reason enough to boycott any products promoted using one.
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Powermeerkat
Re #150
Again, totally agree.
Sunday 2nd September, 1945: A moment of incredible poignancy and historic import for the Asia-Pacific World and easily on a par with that of Luneberg Heath (4th May) & Rheims (7thMay) & the 'Unconditional' Nazi Germany's surrender on 9th May 1945.
Of course it is fashionable for the revisionist-rewriters of History to impose altogether less value & import on those events: E.g. if they could have it their way it was Japanese mistakes not predominantly USA & Allied Forces' efforts that led to the Victory over Japan. Thus, the revisionists more often than not go straight to 2 Nuclear Bombs for the defeat of Japan & everything that passed before was of little or no consequence.
The signings aboard the Missouri & in Europe represented untold millions of people's desperate years of suffering at the hands of real 'nationalist' sycophantic hero-worship, witless 'nationalistic' flag-waving resulting in appalling 'nationalist' aggression etc.
That is true 'nationalism': Not, as some on here like to portray those of us who believe and present positive views of the western Nations, i.e. USA-UK, in the modern world.
Had DemocThreat etc. any inkling of the real dangers of 'nationalism' as posed in the 1930s-40s he wouldn't attempt such glibly superficial restored judgemental histories of how and why WW2 was fought & won by Democracies for the Democratic process to move forward.
What he 'read' and what he claims to 'know' are 2 very different species and there appears to be no cross-over of 'understanding'.
Thus in #151 there is, yet again, the great Swiss domecile pontificator suggesting America was only really at war in South Vietnam to make money for elite groups etc. residing safely in the USA, and the the holding back of 'communism' (not 'socialism') was just a side-issue. That the Indo-China War/s lasted for some 10,000 days from mid-1940s to mid-1970s the risible philosopher attempts to manage as a "...great war for everyone in the USA...", with the humanitarian sop of "except the soldiers who were conscripted to fight..". Which is fascinating as a chap this clever must surely have 'read' & 'know' those who fought for the 'North' whether actual 'north Vietnamese or 'south' volunteers were themselves 'conscripted'!?
But, hey! Why let a little thing like reality get in the way of another incredibly long, tedious offering of the thoughts of DemocThreat!
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Gheryando
Re #145
I don't agree!
I consider Your sucking up to DemocThreat as further evidence of Your personal decline as a reasoned & positive contributor on this Blog.
If You are honestly stating 22 paragraphs on Lawyers making money is Your idea of genuine "..good arguments.." and/or that when the Swiss domecile calls another contributor "..12 year old..", "..rabid nationalist..", "..intellectually" unfit etc. that is Your idea of 'Debate', then my response is: Tosh & gibberish!
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CBW, you never said why you always capitalize the "Y" in "you" and "yours". What is that about?
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cbw, it was the French who were in Indochina for the money. It was part of the remnants of their colonial empire. There was nothing of worth the US could possibly have wanted in Vietnam and certainly nothing worth the financial cost (forgetting the human cost to America) that would have made it a worthwhile undertaking. As with the fact that the US did not steal one drop of Iraqi oil, Europeans always ascribe motives to America it would have been impelled by itself. No understanding between us at least on their side whatsoever.
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155. Marcus
I tend to agree. Salt should be used as a seasoning. As regards the southern accent, I'm afraid it is dying out with the advent of television. There are pockets of resistance however.
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CBW, you genuinely seem to consider yourself intelligent, which I can understand. There are a lot of illiterate people in the world, and clearly you are better educated than they are.
But on this blog, you are not in the upper echelons of capability. I am not trying to insult you, merely stating the facts. You are not stupid, but nor are you the sharpest knife in the drawer.
That is fine, there is nothing wrong with not being the sharpest knife in the drawer.
But from where do you obtain your profoundly high opinion of yourself?
You see, that is why a lot of people dislike the British in general terms, even if they find them thoroughly decent and likable people in each specific instance. The culture somehow instills a sense up innate intellectual superiority in the citizens. Truly ordinary people end up believing that their opinions are complex and edifying.
You do not measure up to your own perception of your abilities, CBW. I can't put it any more simply than that.
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@57 Mathiasen
"Actually, no one expects anything else from UK than a government that takes care of national interests."
The European Commission, presided over by Mr.Baroso, is supposed to take care of the EU interests.
The English speaking world, presided over by Madona(her lover is Argentinean), takes care of the Argentinean team against Germany. “Cherchez la femme”. (fr. look for the woman).
However, Thomas Mueller made us believe that he's accustomed to dance Argentinean tango. Cheers, krieg kamerad /germ. Comrade in arms/.
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Re #161
Oh dear!
The great Swiss philosopher's stone becomes a blunter instrument with each passing comment, afterall!
E.g. "..You are not in the upper echelons of capability.."
"..You are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.."
".. You do not measure up to your perception of your own abilities.."
Now, now, let us not stoop to personalised epithet.
In all honesty it gives me no pleasure, no pleasure at all to shine a light on Your soul... Really, it doesn't entertain or detain me for long at all... I promise & confirm to You, that much.
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cbw wrote:
"Thus in #151 there is, yet again, the great Swiss domecile pontificator suggesting America was only really at war in South Vietnam to make money for elite groups etc. residing safely in the USA, and the the holding back of 'communism' (not 'socialism') was just a side-issue"
This will be last time I respond to you, cbw, god willing.
But it is worth looking at what you write here, because you are someone who preens himself on his military past, and who, despite having no credentials or achievements, considers himself a grand intellectual actor.
So, You ridicule the idea that the USA was in Vietnam for the twin aims of making money for those who supply the war machine and also to stop communism.
OK. So what is Your offering? What is Your point?
What is Your explanation?
If a discussion of the military industrial complex is beneath You, and if if a discussion of the official doctrine makes You sneer with contempt, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
You don't have a point, CBW. You never do. You never write anything worth reading. Sure, you look down on everyone, and you shower other people's contributions with contempt, but you never write anything original or even informative.
All you have is an unshakable arrogance, and the personality of a bully.
Why don't you drop your personal crusade against me, and try impressing people with some content?
You mock my suggestion that the military industrial complex is real, but neglect to offer anything else in its place.
Have you any idea how ridiculous that looks?
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As a Londoner who moved to Barcelona 14 years ago, i agree with Animation (# 63).
Cameron must well know that Great Britain could not meet the Euro entry conditions, even if it wanted to. Also Britain has signed up to both 'Maastricht' (John Major - Conservative) and 'Lisbon' - Gordon Brown - Labour), so the issue of pooling more power is hardly a live one. So what is it all about? Maybe the clue is here:-
"We do not have influence in the United States if we do not have it in Europe" - Nick Clegg Vice Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
Said in an interview with Luis Prado in Madrid and published in 'El País' on Saturday 12 June. Sorry I cannot link as the BBC does not allow links to foreign language sites.
Mike, Barcelona, Spain
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Democracythreat wrote: "You see, that is why a lot of people dislike the British in general terms, even if they find them thoroughly decent and likable people in each specific instance. The culture somehow instills a sense up innate intellectual superiority in the citizens. Truly ordinary people end up believing that their opinions are complex and edifying"
Hmmm. Yes. I have heard this from a number of Americans, Australians, Scots etc. (though obviously the Scots' accusations are aimed directly at the English rather than British)
I would suggest to you that your prejudices are as a direct result, not only of the cliche created by Hollywood being obsessed with casting English actors in the role of superior villains, throughout the decades, but also of your own inferiority complex. If you are regularly exposed to well-spoken, well-dressed and wealthy British people on TV, I don't blame you for developing the opinion that British people believe they are naturally superior, intelectually. That would annoy me, too. Luckily for me I have the wit and experience to know that, despite the large number of vastly overweight, flag-waving morons whooping and loudly instructing God to 'bless America', while declaring evolution to be a communist myth do not represent all Americans.
When YOU say 'British' YOU mean English people who were born into money and have had everything laid out for them on a plate, so to speak. The word is 'aristocracy'. In terms of British society that group represents a tiny percentage, but in terms of exposure in the American media it is the dominant group. Hugh Grant doesn't represent the average British male despite the beliefs of the average American.
In order to rid yourself of your inferiority complex I suggest you get out and see a bit more of the world, because, believe me, the vast majority of my compatriots could do with more self-belief rather than a good dose of reality. And, by the way, I would estimate the groundless declarations of living in the greatest country in the world to be far more common in the US than the UK.
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Here's an idea for the UK getting more influnce in the EU. It could threaten to adopt the Euro and then immediately apply to France and Germany for a bailout like Greece :-) The Berlin Paris axis might be willing to make concessions to Britain just avoid such a circumstance.
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Re #164
Quote, "...someone who **preens himself** on his military past..": Though I (cbw) only ever refer to my UK armed forces' experience in debate where N.Ireland crops up, and in relation to a very few contacts I have with serving NATO personnel re Iraq/Afghanistan.
Quote, "..despite having no credentials or achievements..":
Though whether DemocThreat is right or wrong, this does yet again imply I (cbw) should defer to his 'credentials & achievements' which include...
Well, obviously those of you who read the Swiss domecile's many, lengthy, laborious contributions will all 'know' of his 'credentials & achievements' for he includes them at any excuse.
Quote, "..considers himself a grand intellectual actor..":
Though I'm (cbw) bound to confess I'm not so 'grand' or 'intellectual' as to have the colossal, conceited prejudice to write any of the following about Britons on a British-based Blog,
"..I (DemocThreat) understand it isn't possible that everyone in the UK is a **degenerate** human being. That's crazy talk, I know. And yet I confess, if I were pressed on the matter that would be my view. Indeed, I might not even have to be pressed. I might offer the view anyway..."
And,
"..I (DemocThreat) don't trust the Irish. The Scots are grumpy and the very thought of the English makes my stomach hurt."
Followed by,
"..But just because I'm (DemocThreat) prejudiced that doesn't mean I am wrong."
This glistening prose of immense reasoning, considerable logic and undoubted intellectual quality the like of which must make any Briton feel humbled also included these words from our illustrious DemocThreat,
"..The UK has become like Israel in that respect. It contains the **dregs** of its former society.."
Which apparently was not an anti-semitic reference, no, it was rather a judgement based upon talking to a couple of Israelis.
Thank goodness for the verification, sound intellectual basis and thoroughly researched piece, or one might conclude DemocThreat was exhibiting the sort of language we hoped disappeared around May 1945!
Anyway, I wouldn't want to tread on the philosopher's Swiss cheese shoes anymore than necessary so I will conclude with some more from our grand sage, "..It (British culture) just makes a person want to stab them all (Britons) in the eye with a fork."
I (cbw) don't know "..how ridiculous" all those Quotes from DemocThreat's Comments look: Personally, I find them incredibly shallow, but mostly so out-of-step with the general level of content on these Blogs. Hence the term 'fraud' comes easily to mind.
Others are as ever free to agree or disagree.
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pound pewter 222;
"And, by the way, I would estimate the groundless declarations of living in the greatest country in the world to be far more common in the US than the UK."
It is certainly groundless in the UK. It is anything but groundless in the US. Perhaps that is why so many UcKers have left the mother country to emigrate to America.
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#111 AllenT2
´Every American born is a ´Native ´
Yes, but some are more ´Native´than others according to ´Animal Farm ´and your Holy Documents.
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MarcusAureliusII wrote: "It is certainly groundless in the UK. It is anything but groundless in the US. Perhaps that is why so many UcKers have left the mother country to emigrate to America"
That's the kind of intelligent debate I come to the BBC for!
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#137 - MarcusAureliusII
"Perhaps if she had been treated in the United States by a far more capable although more expensive medical system, she might have lived and recovered . . It appears to be much cheaper to die in Britain than to survive in America".
Well done Marcus. This time you really did sink to the gutter.
I was making a point about citizenship, entitlement and funding - not about medical conditions. But you just cannot resist it can you? You have to use a personal example to make your totally spurious point about the UK health service and how grossly inadequate it is compared with the promised land.
It is completely off topic and I apologise to my fellow bloggers but MAII's rubbish cannot go unanswered. The superior health care system to which you refer was fully engaged in the diagnosis and treatment of her condition. The heads of both her surgical and medical teams were distinguished and respected figures in the American medical system. They consulted extensively with colleagues in Philadelphia and Chicago before proceeding. They were advised not to do so because of the inherent dangers and the potential risk of a subsequent malpractice suit but went ahead anyway.
The major surgery was monitored on live video stream to both the American teams and was a complete success. It gave her four additional years that she would otherwise not have had and her death was not directly related to the procedure anyway.
Your problem, Marcus, is that you cannot resist the temptation to try and score points regardless of how far you go off track or how low you punch. You drew conclusions from my post which were totally false for no better reason than to promote your Europhobic claptrap.
I have a perfectly sensible answer to your later post but I will not dignify it with an answer. You are unworthy of it.
You are beneath contempt.
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Vietnam was not only lost on the domestic front, it was also lost on the real front. With troop morale deterioating fast and officers not being safe from intended friendly fire anymore, the US military ejected from Vietnam.
America could not have won Vietnam without an all-out war effort.
This was not possible as none of the US-officials could explain the people why American soldiers had to go go there.
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#110 Allen T2
´Those ( Chinese and ) black Americans that worked and slaved in early America are long ago dead and the vast majority of their descendants are simply happy and proud Americans ´
-- At the back of the bus ?
-- With the unemployment statistics for blacks ?
I bet you also defend all Israeli actions, hate Bob dylan and would yell ´Kill a Commie for Christ´ ?
You would probably also not understand why the late Nina Simone used the expression ´The United Snakes of America´?
---- A Marcus clone is too much to accept for reality bound Americans !
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ThrenodioII
Re #135, #137 & #172
Your patient forebearance is a credit to You and Your late-wife.
MAII - - surely, if ever, this is THE occasion to withdraw remarks.
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That was terribly low of him.
I'm sorry to hear that about your wife, threnodioII.
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pound pewter 222;
Not only do I give you and those others who exist with only the view of the world those who controlled your stream of information imbued you with since childhood a completely new and an entirely different perspective of existence, but surely I give you the funniest and often the cleverest lines on this or any BBC blog site. I can understand your terminal jealousy and rage at America having replaced Britain as the pre-emminent civilization in the world, especially now that both the UK and Europe as a whole are in a state of more or less managed decline, but at least concede that I sometimes cleverly circumvent the KGBBC cenosors. I'm sure they must have struggled mightily to find a rule that posting broke and allowed it with only the greatest reluctance being unable to find even one :o)
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#175 cbw and Threnodio
While I don´t agree with Marcus, neither do I agree with CBW or Threnodio.
From those who request ´credentials´from bloggers and then demonstrate publicly their ability to acquire international medical assistance when required more than fulfills the accusation of continuing Snobbery in the UK.
Whether Marcus apologizes or not, my suspicions were correct --- not one thought for the average UK citizen,
-- ONLY wave the flag !
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Re151:
"""In my view, all the americans who set out to "fight" in vietnam achieved their aims convincingly. Those who were in it for the money made a vast amount of money. Those who set out to halt the spread of socialism in south east asia also achieved their aims.
As curiously, and perversely depending on your taste, the "artists" in the USA also did extremely well from the war. Somehow they were able to revel in angst and claim that they "lost" the war. They were able to portray themselves as the real victims, and thus swim in the soothing waters of self pity and glorious sacrifice.
Vietnam was a great war for everyone in the USA, except the soldiers who were conscripted to fight it. It was a resounding success.
It just depends which perspective you look at it from."""
DT that is why I agree much more often than not. Spoken most pricesely.
To anyone else having other ideas one should understand that the point of such operations is just to have the army there. Military victory is a non issue. The key point is to ensure control of key traderoutes and prohibition of other to create new ones. Vietnam was never that important as people say. Neither Cambodge. Laos would be important only if Thaland started too to dance the Katiusha. Birmanie (Myanmar) was and still is a real issue. Open a map and see. The US presence in Vietnam aimed only to maintain an army there and in the neighbouring countries.
Re156:
CBW... so what exactly is your opinion. Because you do not pass it down very clearly.
You said:
"""That is true 'nationalism': Not, as some on here like to portray those of us who believe and present positive views of the western Nations, i.e. USA-UK, in the modern world."""
Perhaps for you the 20 million that the British killed in India to get a higher price for rice and tea and cloth colour. Perhaps you have this kind of ethics that killing for money is more moral than killing for nationalism. Check yourself, your nation belongs to the greatest slayers of all times and of the worst kind: they have never taken their responsibilities hiding behind the most extreme excuses (most commonly having send others to do the crimes on your behalf but that won't change anything).
Re167:
"""Here's an idea for the UK getting more influnce in the EU. It could threaten to adopt the Euro and then immediately apply to France and Germany for a bailout like Greece :-)"""
Nice idea. However you should wonder in the first place, why Britain wishes to get more influence? Why not move out more and more, or (even better) completely? What is their problem?
I am asking this for months now and nobody seems to be willing to answer it directly. I have answered it repeatedly: it is mainly the most staunch anti-EU British that will more than all what it takes to maintain UK inside the EU. Makes 100% sense. You must now how politics move to understand this.
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drugstore man, the US could easily have descimated North Vietnam without the use of nuclear weapons or other WMDs had our troops not been restrained by our politicians. Had the only consideration been winning which was the only consideration of the other side, it would have been a very one sided affair. It is outrageous that we send our soldier into combat and then impose rules on them which not only preclude their winning because of the barriers we impose but which often prevent them from protecting their own lives without breaking our laws. Why wouldn't morale be low under such circumstances? Nobody in America really cared about Vietnam until the children of the middle class were drafted into service and forced to fight. That is when and why there were such howls of protests and of course the protesters got much help from Communists and others opposed to America from all over the world. This is one good reason not to have a military draft. But if we don't stop restraining our troops from winning, we won't have many volunteers either.
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Marcus and allenT2
You were ALMOST subjects ???? (BBC)
---- So much for your great thinkers !
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cbw, ba-boom-kersplat
I'm sorry that threnodious, someone I don't know and likely never will meet or know, lost his wife, but he can't choose to bring details of his personal life into a discussion and then put them off limits because of sympathies for his loss. He brought up the subject to make a point about the cost of medicine in the US, not me. He was the one who said her medical treatment in the UK was free. Of course it was not free, someone paid for it. Like all insurance systems it was paid for collectively by the entire population. I of course have no idea what was wrong with her or whether things would have come out differently in the American medical system as opposed to the British medical system. But the evidence strongly suggests that better chances for survival are here in America. Sympathies cannot deter me from challenging his erroneous point.
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125 coolbrushwork writes:
"Incidentally, Canada is one of 60+ Commonwealth of Nations members: Its a worldwide organisation concerning links for politics-trade-science/technology-education-health-people exchange etc. All the sort of stuff that brings greater insight & respect to those involved: Should the USA ever find itself with even fewer real international friends than it already has I'm sure an application to join would be considered in a positive manner!"
Well that is one way of describing it. Others are of the opinion that it is nothing more than an excuse for the leaders of these (mostly poorer and corrupt) nations to get together for some fine wining and dining. Do you have any figures to back up your claim to the benefits of this orginisation? How much annually gets spent on for instance student exchanges etc as opposed to extravagant partying by the elite?
You add:
"The UK has loyally supported the USA and at such times as these with the USA in need of every assistance it is only right the UK continues to extend the hand of friendship... which is a lot more than the conniving EU'S Msr le President de Commission Barroso will ever bring to a table of negotiations within Washington - - saluted or otherwise!"
Maybe he isn't prepared to indulge in all the a**e crawling that seems to be required.
Finally our Homer extols yet again the superiority of the USA when he states:
"Much more than money or military, the US is the prime engine of technology, of culture, of agriculture, and is a reliable quiet bastion of internal peace and stability in a world in perpetual conflict and chaos"
He must be aware of Clemenceau's opinion on the country:
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilisation."
Oscar Wilde and GB Shaw wrote in a similar vein I believe. As for the bastion of peace and stability, could you just remind us yet again how many countries you have invaded since 1945 and how many putches you organised behind the scenes?
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179. At 11:21pm on 03 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"...
Perhaps for you the 20 million that the British killed in India to get a higher price for rice and tea and cloth colour."
EUpris: Nik! Please could you tell me where you get this from? I once saw an Indian documentary which was intending to have a go at the British in India and it never mentioned anything like this. So please tell me where you get this from.
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Maggie McGuire;
"He must be aware of Clemenceau's opinion on the country:
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilisation.""
French jealousy of America goes back a very long way and deservedly so.
General strikes haven't started yet in the UK. They will.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10500081.stm
"public sector unions are threatening "co-ordinated industrial action" if ministers try to implement cuts as deep as 40%."
Well maybe not quite yet. And then again. What will happen to the NHS? What about those promises to cut waiting lists and waiting times for services like hip replacements and cancer treatment?
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margaret howard wrote:
"He must be aware of Clemenceau's opinion on the country:"
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilisation."
Oscar Wilde and GB Shaw wrote in a similar vein I believe. As for the bastion of peace and stability, could you just remind us yet again how many countries you have invaded since 1945 and how many putches you organised behind the scenes?"
________________________________________________________________________
Yeah, I'm sure Americans are concerned about what the French think of them.
It's interesting how you chose 1945 as a year to start questioning America's role in the world. After all, if you are from Europe you have already benefited from what you are criticizing. Convenient, huh?
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David?
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quietoaktree wrote:
"Marcus and allenT2
You were ALMOST subjects ???? (BBC)
---- So much for your great thinkers !"
I'm a little tired today so if you can help me out by explaining exactly what it is you are trying to say it would go a long way into helping me form an appropriate response to your post.
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Mavrelius what is the difference what is correct or wrong.
What is the difference if a personal thing is brought into discussion or not if what you hook at becomes too sensitive.
For that matter all I do is bring personal things into discussion non stop you don't hook at them to offend me.
I understand when you get carried away, but when you are stopped in full gallop by such a thing - back off.
I don't care if it's right or wrong it is not beautiful.
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AT2;
You have to give the Brits credit. It was touch and go for awhile but they did manage to defend the Malvinas against the military juggernaught of Argentina. It seemed to take them forever though. I think it had something to do with having sent the world's only tall masted aircraft carrier. Very ecologically friendly and very economical needing no fuel but it took about six months to make it to the South Atlantic due to lack of winds. At last report I think it was still on its way back. Strong headwinds this time.
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Ultimatum - either you become sorry willingly or unwillingly or I can't talk to you.
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"I don't care if it's right or wrong it is not beautiful."
I haven't seen here this mad since a house landed on her sister.
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quietoaktree wrote:
"-- At the back of the bus ?"
LOL. Oriental people have to ride in the "back of the bus" in America?
"-- With the unemployment statistics for blacks ?"
You are wrongly assuming that "unemployment statistics" automatically points towards racism.
"I bet you also defend all Israeli actions, hate Bob dylan and would yell ´Kill a Commie for Christ´ ?"
Oh, how precious. Yeah, that must be it.
"You would probably also not understand why the late Nina Simone used the expression ´The United Snakes of America´?"
Ultimately, I don't care. Here you have a black woman that achieved success in America, in contradiction to your twisted picture of oppression and racism in America, that moved to France and harbored anti-American sentiment. Sounds just like a lot of the hateful and hypocritical left wing celebrities that infest Hollywood today. Cough... Johnny Depp.
This is also the year 2010, not the 60s. Time to move on and stop creating, supporting and perpetuating intolerance, divisiveness and racism. I have great respect for intelligent and wise black celebrities like Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman who do not use the color of their skin as an excuse for a lack of success and a lack of responsibility.
Here are some quotes for you.
Morgan Freeman:
'Black history is American history.'
'But I can say that life is good to me. Has been and is good. So I think my task is to be good to it. So how do you be good to life? You live it.'
'Dr. Martin Luther King is not a black hero. He is an American hero.'
'I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.'
'I don't want a Black History Month. Black history is American history.'
Bill Cosby: http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/cosby.asp
"---- A Marcus clone is too much to accept for reality bound Americans !"
Sorry to break it to you but our sentiments are quite common throughout America.
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DurstigerMann wrote:
"Vietnam was not only lost on the domestic front, it was also lost on the real front. With troop morale deterioating fast and officers not being safe from intended friendly fire anymore, the US military ejected from Vietnam."
Nonsense. America's military was never allowed to freely engage and fight in that war. It isn't a coincidence that the Linebacker campaigns made the North want to talk.
"America could not have won Vietnam without an all-out war effort.
This was not possible as none of the US-officials could explain the people why American soldiers had to go go there."
In the beginning of the war the majority of Americans were in favor of our participation in Vietnam. There was nothing to "explain." All they needed to do was to allow the military to fight without restrictions.
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Hey ultimate tomato, what do you do for an encore, bang your shoe on the table?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztYwQhKrTJQ&NR=1
"Hasta la vista baby!"
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quietoaktree wrote:
"Yes, but some are more ´Native´than others according to ´Animal Farm ´and your Holy Documents."
The only people that see some as more "native" than others are the ignorant and opportunity seekers that then go on to create, support, promote and perpetuate intolerance, divisiveness, hate and racism.
And which "documents" would those be?
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23 minutes.
I really have been away from here for a long time.
And democracythreat also went beserk! :o)))))))
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MaudDib wrote:
"I don't see any anti-British sentiment except for a few bloggers. One has only to observe American commercials. If the actors or not African American there is a good chance they are British. There is a green lizard character that speaks with a British/Australian accent. Business TV host from Britain. The new spider man is British for heavens sake."
Yes, the use of token British, and Australian, actors and actresses with the bizarre media idea that that will somehow make the show more appealing to the domestic market and the British/Australian markets is quite irritating.
It's getting harder and harder to find an American tv show that doesn't have such a token person. Not only are many British actors and actresses taking away jobs that should go to an American but the attitudes that often come with them, such as in reality type shows like the idiot from American Idol and the loud mouth chefs are certainly not the kind of foreign import America needs.
I've also noticed more and more Americans becoming irritated by it.
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democracythreat wrote:
"This is written without a hint of irony. This typically awesome combination of hard core patriotism and 8 year old world view is the most striking thing about US nationalism.
But we ought not read too much into these comments. The internet is the internet, after all. I would guess allent2 is around 12 years old. He is just a kid who feels he is serving his country by waving the flag on an international blog."
I'm confused, am I supposed to be "8" or "12"? Or am I a 12 year old that thinks like an 8 year old?
You are also not part of a collective (or do you wish to be?) so your use of "we" doesn't add any weight to your words.
"When he becomes an adult, these feelings of love for the state will be replaced by questions, and in any case he may develop a more dignified way of deporting himself in public."
In the immortal words of Ralph Cramden I have already crossed over into the "next plateau." You'll have to be an American and a Honeymooners fan to understand that.
My way of "deporting myself" is to speak the truth and to think logically and clearly while realizing that some people will be offended by that. The offensive part is only in their heads.
"We should not judge america on the basis of allent2's simplistic rants. While it is true that the USA has a huge percentage of fundamentalist christians and an even larger percentage of people who've never owned a passport, and while it is also true that their system of corporate controlled representation is no more democratic than the EU, we ought not forget that there are over 300 million folks in the USA."
What does the possession of a passport have to do with being intelligent and wise citizens? What does the possession of a passport have to do with simply being a good and virtuous human being?
Would you put down the people of a tribe living in peace and harmony in the jungles of South America or Africa because they don't have a passport?
Of course you know the answer to that.
And once you discount all the illegals in America the population would likely drop below that. Nevertheless, I am not oblivious to the fact that some Americans think as you do but I know such people are just a tiny minority of the population. The worse ones usually leave the country, and that's a good thing.
"A lot of them are very intelligent, very kind people indeed."
So the ones you happen to disagree with are automatically stupid and unkind?
"Nationalism is just ugly. Like racism or religious fundamentalism, it appeals to the weak and the frightened, those who are inclined to lash out if once they feel they are in a secure place, protected by a larger power."
Some people simply can not tell the difference between nationalism and patriotism. That's common in Europe.
"The nationalist hides behind the "big brother" of the state, and from that position of security begins to strike out at those he is too frightened to engage with on his own."
Come again? If you really want to talk about "to strike out" then carefully read your words back to yourself. I'm not the one that engages in character assassination attempts.
"Pity the rabid nationalist before hating him, because these people are not big enough or dangerous enough to hate."
Is it possible to feel pity for someone to then go on and hate them? Think about that more carefully.
"The really dangerous people are not the pre-pubescent flag wavers and the amateur provocateurs, but rather the suited men and women whose families have large government contracts in a large centralized state."
Any undue influence in a government is undesirable, that includes those already within government.
"And the bitter irony for allent2, were he intellectually fit to comprehend it, is that this class of people, who deliberately cultivate idiot nationalism in other families in order to sustain their privately owned family empires, originated as a European concept before taking root in the fertile soil of the average american mind."
Europe proved a long time ago that it has mastered the expression of nationalism over any other part of the world. The worse wars in history and many millions of citizens from free and democratic countries are dead because of it. No such a transplantation has ever taken root in America.
"A second irony is that the people from these families are always beyond nationalism themselves. They are wealthy enough to travel, they nearly always speak many languages, and very rarely do they marry someone from their own country. Because nationalism is just so incredibly boring."
Of course it is beyond them because most are in fact patriotic, not nationalistic. You need to learn the difference.
I've also known many rich Americans over my life and few speak other languages. The advantage of English being the world's unofficial language makes that possible. Most were also all American couples.
And if "nationalism" is so "boring" to you then why spend so much time addressing it when you think you see it?
"I wonder what allent2 makes of the british queen, as she tends her firm's nationalistic base. Does he know her family name is Battenburg? Does he understand how the royals of Europe are all interrelated, and how their banks are also part owned the new breed of US aristocrat?"
I don't have any feelings for her that would go beyond the feelings I have for any other old woman.
"No, of course he does not. He sees the world in the simplistic "good vs evil" terms of the eight year old who yearns to watch "Predator vs Alien" and thrill to the exciting explosions."
Some people simply lack the courage to recognize, speak and address the truth. For them everything is subjective. It is the safest and most comfortable route for them to take, at least initially.
"So I put his mewling down to the folly and exuberance of youth, and refuse to judge all the people who live in the USA on that basis. "
But you WILL and HAVE judged many other Americans based on what I have said. Read your post back to yourself.
"After all, there is as much childish foolishness demonstrated on this blog by native Europeans. I would consider it unfair to be judged myself on the basis of that writing."
You now need to practice what you preach.
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#138. At 1:08pm on 03 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work
Nationalism has a very little value be me.
I think, it would be very wise of us if we notice another thing: The serious part of the European press has started to discuss economic theories, and the conclusion so far is that none of the theories or models from the past seem to explain the situation. Therefore P. Krugman, who is quoted in this blog from time to time, is not seen as a prophet in this part of the press. That includes Die Zeit.
Merkel has made her decision on economic theories: Insolvencies within the Euro zone are endangering the currency, and she will vigorously defend this currency and made no compromise on this in Canada.
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#162. At 3:47pm on 03 Jul 2010, generalissimo
Hallo in Sofia. Well, my remark should be read in the context of Hewitt’a article, of course. From the British as such I expect more than that, but I suppose that is clear from the beginning.
I am somewhat of a pacifist, and it appears that I share this with many German’s - they still have memories from the war, so we just look at football as football. By the way we have people from a large number of nationalities here in Berlin to watch the games by public viewing; it is something of a party. If we don’t make it to the final it will cool down a little, by actually I think the party will go on till it’s over.
I am happy to see Berlin in that role, but today I suppose many will again keep an eye on the presidential election in Poland.
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Re #156 cool_brush_work replying to my earlier post.
I find it so sad, and actually pretty scary, that so many British posters (who obviously don't remember the Korean War, let alone WWII)
don't even realise how many British soldiers were killed, maimed or at least viciously tortured in the Far East by the Japanes whom we, in in the end, so "viciously bombed", sparing millions of them from a holocaust Japanese generals wanted to stage.
BTW. I've just opened a BBC video entitled "Pride Parade", thinking that perhaps it was commemorating the valiant British effort during the Korean War whose 60 anniversary has just passed.
Imagine my surprise. :-(((
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Re #203 "If we don’t make it to the final it will cool down a little, by actually I think the party will go on till it’s over.
I am happy to see Berlin in that role, but today I suppose many will again keep an eye on the presidential election in Poland."
Pray that Mirosław Klose and Łukasz Podolski don't keep an eye on that election, but win in the semifinal. And the final.
For Germany, of course. :)
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"158. At 3:02pm on 03 Jul 2010, democracythreat wrote:
CBW, you never said why you always capitalize the "Y" in "you" and "yours". What is that about?"
its a German thing where you capitalize these words as a means of respect to the counterparty.
CBW - there is no need for me to "suck up" to dt. I simply agree with his observation. You have become increasingly militant over the past months and its difficult to debate with fanatics.
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QOT
Re #178
Though I try to avoid replies to You because I freely admit to being at a loss as to understanding almost anything You write I will just say this:
I am not one of those who asked for Your 'credentials' & nor would I ask them of MAII, DemocThreat, Threnodio, WebAlice, Mathiasen, Menedemus, Nik, ChrisArta, MHoward AllenT2 etc. I'm unsure as to why any of us would think stating our 'credentials' is that important. Everybody has their story & we are all surely at least a partial product of what we were in each & every part of our lives.
I freely admit to having stated the basics about my background: This has been in order to explain to other contributors a little of from where I draw my reasoning, viewpoints etc.
Anyway, that's it from me to You (doubtless, You are grateful!).
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Re #179
'...20 million British killed in India to raise prices..': You're subvervting of reality utterly 'mad' as ever - - not all killed in one go; it took several crushing invasions, several ghastly famines and countless cruel, thoughtless imperialist actions by G.B. to get to that number over about 275 years! Anyway, I think 20 million is way too low a figure.
Tell us all Nik: What is Your opinion of the Indian custom of burning to death of surviving widows - - I know it's a side-issue - - And what about the Indian practise of selling daughters in marriage from birth? Were the colonial British wrong to intervene in these local cultural practises?
However, the 750,000,000 surviving Indians in 1947 when G.B. left split into 2 Nations and one opted for the World's largest 'Democracy' - - India - - and the other descended into decades of Military-interventionist governments (Pakistan) - - both are still a part of the Commonwealth of Nations. (see my Comment to MHoward for more detail on this splendid organisation)
What shall the modern UK do - Apologise? I'm sure in 2010 the 1,000,000+ resident British Indians can't get by in their daily lives until that's done. Yeah, right!
Now as to 'nationalism': I don't say much on it as I cannot see any point of discussing something so wide-spread as to be near impossible to pin-down as being one item of peoples' feelings.
Still, as You clearly want my little opinion on the issue: Let's see: 'Nationalism', part 1) well, in the 1950s in England when I went to the cinema they played the National Anthem at the end of the film-show - - many people stood & listened and many others ducked out without listening to a note.
'Nationalism', part 2) well, again in the '50s & indeed into the '60s when I was holidaying in Belgium with my parents (Belge mum & English dad) we regularly went to the Cheval Blanc (White Horse) variety theatres & every evening (shows lasted to 2, 3, 4a.m.) the stage Master of Ceremonies would call for a singing of the Belge Anthem, the Dutch, the British anthem & if there sufficient French, American, even Italian then we sang along to those too - - only the German anthem was never mentioned - - these places were packed, alcohol was very cheap & my coca cola exotic & from what I could see nobody minded at all, especially as very pretty ladies in what looked like underwear & rather muscly men to my untrained child eyes used to move in amongst the crowd encouraging everyone to take part.
'Nationalism', part 3) early-60s I joined the Sea Cadets & every parade it was off-caps, to attention whilst we raised the Union Jack & when my Unit competed at Dartmouth, Gibraltar & Malta against Sea units from other parts of the UK & from other Nations the rousing cheers etc. for whichever Nations won their respective events & Anthems played was very heartwarming.
'Nationalism' part 4) late-60s I went to Uni, grew long hair, chased braless girls & campaigned against Apartheid, the Vietnam War & called British Police 'pigs' when they prevented us from invading the South Afrcian rugby team dressing room & the USA London Embassy - - us, leftish-students were clear UK was too friendly to the USA & thought Europe had a good future so long as the Russians didn't invade or have a nuclear war with America. Oh, and the Beatles were the World's greatest rock bank of all time & they were English!
'Nationalism', part 5) 1971 I joined the UK Territorial Army - - 2 years later I signed up as a regular & joined the Paras after basics having first experienced parachuting as a Sea Cadet - - the rest is just all 'nationalism' from there on - - we kicked down the doors of Ulster catholic & protestant families, bashed men, women & children over the head, snatched 'paddy' off the street, had sh#t & p##s thrown in our faces by 7yr olds, exchanged gunfire with 'paddy' on high rise buildings & took a couple of big hits from snipers & explosives, but hey, its what you are paid for, so you go with the flow - - what was I doing there? Who knows! For sure the 'nationalist' IRA didn't want us there, the 'nationalist-loyalist' wanted us out of the way too, & the UK 'nationalist' government presumably wanting to defeat the others' 'nationalism' sent me there 3 times to preserve 'law & order'!
Occasionally in barracks in West Germany I watched west Germans demonstrate their 'nationalist' feelings opposite the Wall & west German police bash & kick the demonstrators to prevent an international incident.
Meanwhile Nixon shocked us all & went to 'nationalist' China to negotiate with the greatest 'nationalist' tyrant of them all, Chairmen Mao - - his regard for 'nationalism' cost 150,000,000 Chinese lives making Hitler & Stalin look like total amateurs! Nixon finally got America out of Vietnam & almost had China open-up. 2 immensely powerful, ruthless, stop-at-nothing 'nationalist' leaders: Who do You admire more - - Nixon or Mao? Tough choice, aye!?
Nowadays, some of the **lovely/cuddly men & women from the 2 'nationalist' sides in the 'Irish Troubles' (!?) I saw on the streets of Belfast, LondonDerry (as it was then) etc. are sitting in Government together alongside the UK with the idea of keeping 'nationalism' under control (IMO it wont last long).
As they say, 'go figure'!
Of course, if You were referring to 'nationalism' as in circa 1920s Italy or 1930s Germany & Japan that led to the outbreak of a European & later World War then You would also have to consider what was in the 'national' interest of the UK, France, USSR, USA, Poland, China etc.
For that I suggest You stop reading marxist-leninist theoreticals & look at some basic Histories that don't have Greece at the centre of the World!
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Powermerkat
Re #204
Again, agree very much.
In my non-armed forces years business took me to the Far East & I managed several times to visit WW2 sites.
In UK it is often labelled the 'fogotten army' or 'forgotten war': I guess it is partly that the Nazi Germany threat was so close and but for 25 to 30 miles of Sea & some Airmen it would have been all over in 1940, so it has focussed British minds on what might have been the Islands' fate.
Nevertheless, the India & the Burma Associations & other charitable-veteran outfits do a lot of work with regard to maintaining memories of the era: The bulk of up-keep of UK & Allied Cmeteries etc is undertaken by the Commmonwealth War Grave Commission - - yet another area of the Commonwealth's activities MHoward seems to distinctly fail to understand!
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AllenT2 wrote: "Of course it is beyond them because most are in fact patriotic, not nationalistic. You need to learn the difference"
Well if patriotism means seeking out foreign websites with the aim of abusing and insulting other members simply because they were not born in the USA, I would say that makes you a big patriot. Not a particularly energetic one admittedly, as clicking 'refresh' for 7 hours straight isn't exactly serving your country, but Well done, anyway! By the way, I don't think many people outside your own friendship group see Hugh Laurie as a token Brit. That's just you.
BBC, is there an ironic post of the blog award? If so, surely AllenT2's "The only people that see some as more "native" than others are the ignorant and opportunity seekers that then go on to create, support, promote and perpetuate intolerance, divisiveness, hate and racism." must win it, no?!
MAII wrote: "We do not want your socialist medicine with its rationing here. We only want to figure out how to pay for our own system which works very well and is not broken"
I congratulate you on your honesty Marcus. I, personally, would be too embarrassed to admit that I care only about myself and have little interest whether the millions less fortunate than me live or die. No problem for you though, eh? Again: well done!
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Mathiasen
re #138 & #202 & my posts
Certainly never intended to imply 'nationalism' was a key factor to Your rationale.
Nothing in Your contributions could lead one to conclude that; though I do feel You have on occasion implied 'nationalism' is peculiarly associated with the UK & especially the English and I feel that You like so many 'pro-EU' mistake the background reasoning to our 'anti-EU' views.
E.g. I was absolutely delighted to see Netherlands, Germany & Spain knock-out S.American opposition at the WC - - my hope is for a Holland v Germany Final - - am I clutching at 'nationalist' straws to state I want Germany to win because then at least my poor, sad, useless England Team can claim they 'lost' to the 'best' & 'World Cup' Winners!?
Cheers.
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In this place, although one does not know the place the commentators are from it is not difficult to understand:
British complain about the EU, and congratulate themselves that the UK is not in it, even though the government has just announced cuts to the budget up to 40%. Lucky them.
Deficit up to 15% of GDP, (Greece 8%) Moody, Goldman Sucks were are you?
from US The deficit in the US- country that dominate the world with fiat money- is irrelevant, though if there is a bankrupt country, this is it. It is the only country which has reneged sovereign debts in the last 200 years. The center of the world was not clear at the time of the Ussr. But no system that might show there is an alternative to US style capital/colonialism cannot be allowed to survive. The same since the Euro was started. On friday 15 minutes before closing time Greece is attacked. Panic follows. The white trash from the US jump on the spinning machine and declare the end of the Euro, and the end of the welfare state.
The crisis started by US banks, is said to be over now just because the government created jobs show a little decline in unemployment, the crisis is now in European Banks, the gringos say while printing money The center of the world is moving to CHINA, (and Europe) and the US and Israel will they will keep killing muslims to get oil.
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Margaret Howard
Re #184 & the Commonwealth
I simply cannot fathom why You would think to write asking me for details on the Commonwealth that You could plainly look up for Yourself at any time!?
I will list for You the following & suggest You google until Your need is requited:
Commonwealth Foundation
Commonwealth Parliamnetary Assoc.
Commonwealth Business Council
Commonwealth Lawyers Assoc.
Commonwealth War Grave Commission
Commonwealth Cultural Exchange
Commonwealth Scholarship (University)
Commonwealth Games (Sports)
They are in no particular order & that's not all of them: Clearly some will be more relevant than others, but all are part of an International organisation loosely based around at some stage having been a part of a long defunct British Empire.
These days non-Brit Empire Nations can also join.
It is my understanding the costs of the Commonwealth Conference at which all Heads of State meet & is usually opened by HM QEII are negligible compared to its other areas of activity.
In any case why You fixate on this is also a puzzle? Shouldn't international organisations meet from time-to-time? Can You tell me of another, that doesn't meet?
Isn't it really all part of the same far-fetched 'coolies' analogy etc? You have a bee in Your bonnet about the 'British/Americans' and You wont see anything except faults because anything else would reveal the faults in Your hostile viewpoint of them!?
Well, I don't know about the "..a##e crawling..": Perhaps it's Your turn - - would You like to give us all an account of what exactly that entails because You certainly allege it a lot and provide diddly squat of detail!
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Gheryando
Re #207
You call it what You like.
I see & read You are not averse to labelling 'albanians' etc. & then You write in support of someone who calls all English/Jews "..degenerate.." & "..dregs.."! You write telling me I am being "..militant.." whilst You defend someone who only yesterday wrote on here that another contributor was "..intellectually unfit.."!
What exactly is going on in Your mind: Do tell us all Gheryando is that really the level of debate You enjoy!?
IMO the saying: 'You are known by the friends You keep,' is unfortunately apt for You at this time.
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Re #213 CBW
I'd like German team to win, but for a different reason:
Theirs looks to me like soccer of the future (disciplied, well-thought-out and executed TEAM game), whereas Latin American one - is so often boring.
And ineffective.
Failures of Argentina, Brazil (and probably Spain soon) to advance have amply shown that a TEAM game (just like American football) cannot be succesfully played/won by 2-3 even the most brilliant dribblers/strikers.
[It helps if one has them, but it's clearly not enough]
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Virtu
Re #214
Interesting alternative perspective...
Then You went & spoilt it all with the nonsensical stuff about USA & Israel killing muslims for oil!
Still, if You seriously believe that & judging from news etc. there are a lot like You across the World then You wont mind at all when Beijing has the controls - - afterall, they have such a fine humanitarian record themselves!
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Re #211 CBW.
I've just finished sailing from Pirus to Istanbul (via Mykonos, Santorini, Rhodes, Marmaris, Bodrum, Izmir, etc.) about a week ago.
And as I was passing through Canakkale I thought of Galipoli and those thousands of ANZAC soldiers who died there in their failed, ill-guided but valiant effort.
And I remembered words of Ataturk addressed to Australian mothers of the fallen:
"Now that they rest in our soil, they are OUR dead as well".
Yes, those were cruel times.
But at least some people still had class.
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"US and Israel will they will keep killing muslims to get oil."
And which Muslims are those?
Do people who repeat slogans of a long-discredited disinformation campaign realise at least that a majority of oil US imports (while preserving its strategic reseves undergroud for a rainy day) doesn't come from the Middle East? And that Afghanistan does not have any?
And that two biggest exporters of oil to US are their friendly neighbours: Canada and Mexico? [hardly Muslim countries]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
LIE, LIE, AND EVENTUALLY SOME OF IT WILL BE ACCEPTED AS TRUTH"
(dr Joseph Goebbels)
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Pound Pewter 222 #212;
In reference to America's medical care system you wrote;
"I congratulate you on your honesty Marcus. I, personally, would be too embarrassed to admit that I care only about myself and have little interest whether the millions less fortunate than me live or die. No problem for you though, eh? Again: well done!"
Once again we have the spectacle of someone in Europe who knows absolutely nothing about America mouthing off proving his ignorance. Millions of people do not die in America for lack of medical care. Just about nobody does. Everyone gets care although people who are impovrished will not often get the most prestigious heart surgeons or neurosurgeons to operate on them. And there are mistakes just as in any system. That is hardly surprising when there are over 322,000,000 clients (which includes the illegal aliens.) Speaking of illegal aliens, as an example of what I am saying, one head of oncology in a large hospital in Texas lamented that his hospital would no longer be able to offer free world class cancer treatment to illegal aliens due to budget cutbacks. Well it was not free, someone paid for it. It came out of the pockets of American taxpayers and those who pay for medical insurance whether individually or as part of the remuneration they recieve from an employer. Often poor people use hospital emergency rooms as their medical clinic.
I've heard it said that the US has a three tier medical system. The worst our system has to offer easily beats the best Britain's and almost everyone else has. And there is no filth British hospitals are famous for allowed in American hospitals which might cause iatrogenic infections either. Unlike the British system, the American system does not have the luxury of policing itself and getting away with eternally unfulfilled promises to do better in the future. People who are injured or die from careless indifference or stupidity even if they are impovrished can and do sue for damages and win. Lawyers take those cases on contingency where they only get paid if they win. That is one reason our system is so expensive. Unlike in other societies, our society also imposes real and substantial financial and even criminal consequences for those who cause injury that should have been preventable. British Petroleum will find that out. I'm sure their lawyers already have told their management that.
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Reading some of these post, I have little hope for this world.
Let's start over again, but let's think that all the good that you want for yourself you want for other too. Let's understand that what you see in others you first see in yourself. (it really can't be any other way)
I know I sound sanctimonious and preachy , but I don't know how to say it any other way. If anyone can do better, take a stab.
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WebAlice
Re #190
Totally appropriate observation by You.
MAII has made an error of near sickeningly nasty dimensions and a retraction or better still an apology is owed to ThrenodioII.
It (retratcion/apology) would not diminish or detract from MAII's overall contributions & indeed I believe build even more allowance into the general understanding of us Blog users for his way of putting things.
Anything less MAII and You are finished on this Blog - - so far as any decent debate with You in the future - - that, I guarantee You. Be a man, do what You know to be the right thing.
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What an achievement!
What a credential!
The 'mad-greek' from the late & oh-so-lamented out-of-print leninist-marxist book of Aegean fairy-tales agrees with DemocThreat. (see #179, "..DT that is why I agree more often than not.. Spoken most precisely...")
Bet that just makes every contribution worth that extra round of self-indulgent cheering, aye, DemocThr...
What's that? Can't hear You? Come to that, 'god-willing', never will, again!
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MikeE-BCN
Re #165
"..Nick Clegg **vice** Prime Minster of G.B..."
Now, I know the Coalition has already had a couple of dodgy revelations about its membership but **'vice'**!
Is there something You aren't telling us MikeE? Oh go on...
We won't pass it on, promise!
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cbw;
I do not come here to win a popularity contest. I come here to present a point of view which is unpopular in Europe, even totally unknown coming from an American but which I believe represents a large segment of the American population even if Europeans don't want to believe it, refuse to believe it.
A demand for an apology for being rude coming from a European seems the height of hypocricy and hubris. Even if I had posted something I felt justified an apology I'd likely be unwilling to offer it considering who it would be targeted at. None offered and under the circumstances none warranted.
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MAII
Re #226
Stuff & nonsense MAII! Stuff & nonsense!
There is no "popularity contest" as You very well know.
There is an exchange of views that is on times heated, argumentative, questionable, & inherently dubious as we none of us know for sure from whence each other is standing their ground - - though in turn that offers a degree of a fair playing/debating field.
You over-stepped the bounds of the fairly loose civility that should be accorded to each of us by each of us on this Blog.
You will bitterly regret this intransigent attitude: You were not "rude", that is is Your daily fare, You were not "hypocritical" that is Your meat & drink, You were not displaying "hubris", for that is not in Your arsenal of invective - - You were plain, simple, personally wrong in Your statement and for You to seek to pitifully justify Yourself suggest the grounds for supporting You on this Blog are no longer applicable.
You will come to regret this MAII, be in no doubt if that - - You have made a monumental mistake - - causing offence is part & parcel of healthy debate and absolutely nothing to do with Your right to present what You conclude is a viewpoint Europeans don't or won't "believe".
It would seem, Your critics were right all along, and You lack every grace associated with Humanity: Make no mistake, You are not some fellow standing up for American or even Individual rights in this matter - - It is that lack of insight will cost You dear in days ahead.
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Well Mavrelius if there is nothing holy for you in this blog even Alice
Not for encore for threnodio
"ultimate tomato" - you are a fact sheet
What is happening in your New Jersey or whatever - Russian tanks stand around, that you feel the need to protect USA from "Europeans" at all costs
What do USA have to do with it or Europe escapes me
Sure the USA will collapse tomorrow, fragile thing no doubt, if you apologise to a "European"
It's a matter of being awkward - then being human - in the company - where you reside
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@195 AllenT2
"Nonsense. America's military was never allowed to freely engage and fight in that war. It isn't a coincidence that the Linebacker campaigns made the North want to talk."
Yeah, whatever.
There are official reports out there, go read them.
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@181 MAII
I do not disagree.
Of course a single nation like Vietnam would have stood no chance against an all-out war effort. But the US government and high command never wanted that.
Some time ago I read a few statements from some high horse in the US military back then. He said that the main mistake was that nobody knew who they were fighting against exactly. Who was Ho-Chi-Minh, who was the Vietcong? What did they stand for exactly?
The only thing they knew was that they were commies and, therefore, had to be contained.
So it was only a matter of time until the soldiers (and their families) would have had enough of risking their lives for something as vague.
Maybe that`s a simplistic approach, but it makes sense to me.
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#221 - MarcusAureliusII
You have never been to the UK, you do not have the slightest idea about either the society or the health system. You post from of position of blind ignorance, astounding prejudice and utter bigotry.
The level to which you have sunk is breathtaking. In 221 you refer again to British Petroleum instead of BP. Even your President had the grace to apologise for a similar foul up, but you? Oh no! Bereft of wisdom, judgment or balance, you simply revert to old terminology to score points.
In 226 you post "A demand for an apology for being rude coming from a European seems the height of hypocricy and hubris." What on earth makes you think that an apology from you is requested, still less demanded? An apology is something given in good faith for something said or done in error. There is nothing erroneous in what you post. It is willful and crude bile. An apology from you would simply be an insult that rubs salt into the wound.
There was a time when you had things of value to contribute to this blog. Those days are gone. I do however recall some time back in Mark Mardell's time an exchange of views regarding 'anti-Americanism' which appeared to both offend and bewilder you. I am blessed with the good fortune of close connections both in business and personally with your country and therefore know that you are not typical. But, if you were, you would richly deserve the loathing and contempt that some have heaped on you.
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to whomever cares;
I offered threnodious the perfunctory pro forma empty words of sympathy one customarily extends to strangers who have suffered a personal loss (just as Europeans offered their empty words of sympathy after 9-11 between bashing America for its position on global warming, trade in bananas, gm foods, and just before condemning it for militarily defending itself against its enemies in Afghanistan and Iraq without their approval.)
That being said, it was threnodious who chose to trot out his personal loss to make a political point. I think once he did that it became fair game for a rebuttal including a sharp one.
cbw, whatever rules you think I broke, what is clear is the moderators did not think I broke the rules which govern posting here or they would not have published my comments. Those are the only rules which matter. I have never been one to be concerned about what others think of me personally. I'm not that weak and do not allow the capricious approval or disapproval of others to rule me.
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Elagabalus wrote: "Once again we have the spectacle of someone in Europe who knows absolutely nothing about America mouthing off proving his ignorance"
Mate, ignorant or not, I didn't come on here to discuss American issues. I think it's a bit rich with the ignorance and vitriol you spout to raise your own aganda and then attack others for their views on it. While I'm on the subject, I just clicked on the World Health Organisation's website and note that the UK is judged to have the 18th best health service in the world while the USA is lagging in 37th. I also clocked that MRSA is a real issue for your pristine hospitals. I'm sure you know much much more than the WHO and will doubtlessly correct them, on here. I'm just saying, though.
As for BP, I think they are already finding that out! I wonder if the thousands of American staff and shareholders who're likely to suffer will take the edge off your joy at that, or will your prejudices win out, and you can revel in the punishment of a British-based company?
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pound pewter 222;
"Mate, ignorant or not, I didn't come on here to discuss American issues."
And yet that is exactly what you did.
"I'm sure you know much much more than the WHO and will doubtlessly correct them, on here."
Why should I believe one word anyone who has anything to do with the UN has to say? No I don't believe it. And if I were sick enough to need to be in a hospital ESPECIALLY if my own life depended on the treatment I'd receive, there is no other country I'd rather be in a hospital in than an American hospital. And that includes Britain, France or any other place.
BTW, BP has not yet even begun to find out what the legal ramifications are of their actions which led to the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. I'm not aware that any serious civil or criminal proceedings have begun yet. In all likelihood the matter is still being investigated to understand exactly what happened insofar as that is possible. The 20 billion dollars BP put into escrow for immediate distribution to victims who lost income as a result was entirely voluntary on their part according to their own account of it. Our system of justice is sometimes very slow and those victims need relief immediately. They can't afford to wait.
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MAII
Re #232
That You could conceive of equating the immense, broad, human tragedy of 9/11 and this unsavoury episode only serves to reveal Your utterly, scandalously shallow opinion of those many thousands of fellow Americans, plus Europeans, Asians & Africans who suffered!
Breathtaking ignorance: Why would any Moderator think it was their duty to prevent MAII from exposing Yourself in this gratuitously unpleasant manner.
I've no idea what Your fellow countrymen would think of You at this point: I only know You don't either or You could not possibly have written #232.
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CBW do you think ElagabalusII is God? Why do you keep saying 'You'?
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cbw;
"....only serves to reveal Your utterly, scandalously shallow opinion of those many thousands of fellow Americans, plus Europeans, Asians & Africans who suffered!" yada yada yada.
Acknowledging pound pewter 222's unjustifiable criticizms of the discussion going beyond Europe in his posting #233, don't you think we should be focusing on my opinion of Europeans to the exclusion of Americans and Asians? Okay, I'll admit my opinion is that they are as a whole scandalously shallow. There, satisfied?...both of ya?
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232. At 5:35pm on 04 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
to whomever cares;
"I have never been one to be concerned about what others think of me personally. I'm not that weak and do not allow the capricious approval or disapproval of others to rule me."
Entirely typical, and unfortunately becoming more typical of contributons to this blog almost daily!
MAII, your increasingly disgusting posts here uncover you in my opinion as borderline sociopath. I believe you urgently need psychiatric help. This is a professional and not a personal evaluation.
House rules wouldn't permit ...
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235 CBW wrote:
"Breathtaking ignorance: Why would any Moderator think it was their duty to prevent MAII from exposing Yourself in this gratuitously unpleasant manner."
Yes maybe you are right. I had thought threnodio or other bloggers would report Homer's outrageous 137 comment to the moderator. I am at a loss to understand what Gavin Hewitt's otherwise intelligent and interesting blog has done to attract those three foul mouthed fascists, Allen, Homer and powermeerkat and for them to think anyone here would give them the time of day in real life. I am sure it is pure coincidence that all three are American and I am not surprised that decent and original American contributors like David (please come back) are staying away.
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Mickey Mouse;
"MAII, your increasingly disgusting posts here uncover you in my opinion as borderline sociopath. I believe you urgently need psychiatric help. This is a professional and not a personal evaluation."
What do you mean "borderline?"
What do you mean "professional evaluation?" Do you claim to be a psychiatrist that you call yourself professionally qualified to make such an opinion never even having met me in person?
Psychiatric help is not called for. Far better I should run for political office instead so that once elected I could put my knowlegde based opinions to good use in changing America's foreign and military policies :0)))))))))))
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Maggie McGuire;
"I am at a loss to understand..."
That was immediately obvious to me from your very first posting on this blog.
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“Kaczynski concedes election defeat”, the headline says here on BBC. German ARD is a little more cautious but it actually seems that Komorowski now can continue as the elected president of Poland.
The marginal victory of course tells us that the Poles continue to be divided. Anybody, who has visited Poland will know that for large groups of the population the political past makes up a more important factor than the future. No the less, a majority of Poles have signalised that they would like to continue a pro-EU line and also a less confrontational line in the relation to Germany.
I have all the time expected that the Poles would go that way, and now a majority behind this seems to have emerged. These are good news from Warsaw.
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MarcusAureliusII wrote: "don't you think we should be focusing on my opinion of Europeans to the exclusion of Americans and Asians? Okay, I'll admit my opinion is that they are as a whole scandalously shallow."
He then went on to write: "What do you mean "professional evaluation?" Do you claim to be a psychiatrist that you call yourself professionally qualified to make such an opinion never even having met me in person?"
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To Cool_Brush-Work re the RH Nick Clegg
Sorry - I was translating back from the Spanish and got it wrong.
I think Deputy Prime Minister is correct. Maybe I was thinking of those very funny cartoons by Giles at the time of the Profumo affair.
His Spanish opposite is "First Deputy President of the Government, Maria Teresa Hernandez de la Vaga" be grateful you don't has to get your tongue round that lot!
I must admit to being puzzled by the mixed signals being put out by the present British Government. It would be nice to know what their objectives are and how the aim to achieve them.
Mind you, the same could be said about the American Government regarding Afghanistan. That is if they know themselves. Any ideas?
Regards, Mike, Barcelona
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"That being said, it was threnodious who chose to trot out his personal loss to make a political point. I think once he did that it became fair game for a rebuttal including a sharp one".
I can only repeat that my original post had nothing to do with personal loss. I was simply making a point about citizenship, rights and responsibilities. It was you who chose to personalise it with your sarcastic remarks about the UK health service which are also irrelevant to my original post.
Be that as it may, I note that my earlier response has been 'referred for further consideration'. I was telling you what I thought of you, which probably means it will be disallowed. It makes no difference to my opinion.
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#235 - cool_brush_work
No, do not censor him.
I think it was Oscar Wilde who said that it was "better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought an idiot than open it and leave no room for doubt".
Marcus chooses to open his. We are thus enlightened.
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Ya know threnodious, I'm glad they keep these postings available for people to look at again and again so that the truth about what people actually post can be revisited directly after the fact. Take your posting on this thread #135 for example;
"and, when she became seriously ill, the UK system provided her with all the free medical treatment"
Deny it all you want but the evidence is there plain as day, one more cheap European shot at the American medical system. YES that is exactly what it was about no matter what you say. And I repeat again, it is cheaper for an individual to die in the medical system in Europe than it is to survive in the medical system America. We don't ration out life and death here yet, President Obama's plan can still be revoked before it is too late and America becomes like Europe.
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#239 - margaret howard
"I had thought threnodio or other bloggers would report Homer's outrageous 137 comment to the moderator".
Because censoring ignorance and crudity gives it the opportunity to fester and grow in the dark. Expose it the broad day light of reason and it will wither and die.
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#246 threnodio_11
"I think it was Oscar Wilde who said that it was "better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought an idiot than open it and leave no room for doubt".
I think this is a better one..............for all of us.
"It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them."
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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#247 - MarcusAureliusII
Exactly. A point about citizenship and entitlement.
Could you spare a moment to explain the terms 'ya' and 'yada yada' for the benefit of those whose command of English is limited to English? Thank you.
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threnodious;
"Could you spare a moment to explain the terms 'ya' and 'yada yada' for the benefit of those whose command of English is limited to English?"
It's what I think of you only it's in Swedish so that it got past the censors. Perhaps Juka-boxa could translate it for you. He isn't Swedish but he's the closest to being Swedish who posts here.
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Interesting development. In two blogs where I am simultaneously today(yesterday) the day has been the gang :o) says to one - be a man apologise! (hopeless appeal likewise :o)
Only it was so much easier sorted the Russian way.
The trick is you need a certain Mig pilot who comes and barks eh says: ? eh, well
? oj
Well, says (approx.) In decent places for such words (short description)
There is a classic equivalent in our film-ology:
"Leave at least one bullet, XXXX! (otherwise) You won't have anything to shoot up with!"
It's hard to tell here, but in the other blog - apart from required improvements (in overall blog morals :o) - even the avatar was changed! From a wolf head to a lovely toy rabbit :o)))))))))))
By now - to a black square of Malevitch, even :o)
Honest, I would have never thought.
Aviation is everything these days.
(nick name is Alexandre Leonov. Highly recommend)
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stirling222 wrote:
"Well if patriotism means seeking out foreign websites with the aim of abusing and insulting other members simply because they were not born in the USA, I would say that makes you a big patriot."
LOL. I abuse and insult people because they are not from America? Right, that must be it.
I don't abuse or insult because I have zero personal interests in anyone on this site but if you'd like I can quote some of your posts where you show an obvious talent and inclination for doing just that.
You see, unlike many people on this site, I don't resort to character assassination attempts and any other personal attacks to try and shore up my arguments. If am confident and secure in what I have chosen to say on the subject that is being discussed then why would I resort to such childishness?
And the last time I checked I left grade school and high school many decades ago.
"Not a particularly energetic one admittedly, as clicking 'refresh' for 7 hours straight isn't exactly serving your country, but Well done, anyway!"
Oh, so now you, as an anti-American non-American, is going to lecture me on the quality of my service to my country? Right. LOL.
And it takes me very little time to read and respond to posts but you go right ahead in your silly attempt to paint me as some kind of loser with nothing better else to do with "7 hours" of my life. After all, such a thing is certainly meaningful to the discussion. Right?
"By the way, I don't think many people outside your own friendship group see Hugh Laurie as a token Brit. That's just you."
Why would they since his character is supposed to be American? Most Americans have no idea that he is British.
"BBC, is there an ironic post of the blog award? If so, surely AllenT2's "The only people that see some as more "native" than others are the ignorant and opportunity seekers that then go on to create, support, promote and perpetuate intolerance, divisiveness, hate and racism." must win it, no?!"
Where is the "irony?" Do you know what "irony" means?
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"232. At 5:35pm on 04 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
to whomever cares;
I offered threnodious the perfunctory pro forma empty words of sympathy one customarily extends to strangers who have suffered a personal loss (just as Europeans offered their empty words of sympathy after 9-11 between bashing America for its position on global warming, trade in bananas, gm foods, and just before condemning it for militarily defending itself against its enemies in Afghanistan and Iraq without their approval.)
That being said, it was threnodious who chose to trot out his personal loss to make a political point. I think once he did that it became fair game for a rebuttal including a sharp one.
cbw, whatever rules you think I broke, what is clear is the moderators did not think I broke the rules which govern posting here or they would not have published my comments. Those are the only rules which matter. I have never been one to be concerned about what others think of me personally. I'm not that weak and do not allow the capricious approval or disapproval of others to rule me. :
CBW - you done it! You made MAII's alter ego (the person who types behind) actually come out...that is...amazing! He was actually a real person not a caricature for a bit. What enlightenment. What glimpse of paradise.
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MarcusAureliusII
Margaret Howard
Thredobions
1) your ignorance seems too much even for a yankee: "The French are envious of the US"
no one with a brain, let alone the French, is envious of the US, with the highest number of citizens in jail, 42 million without health care, no right to welfare or strike........... and yankee, there would have been no US without france, Remember Lafayette? Napoleon?
2) US lost in Vietnam because of the politicians...... who? George Bush who evaded the Nat Guard service?
When did you last invaded a fierce enemy like, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Iraq..... all very powerful countries, with WMDs that could be launched in 45 Min.?
.................
PS Marcus Aurelius.... if I remember correctly he was one of the Roman Emperors. You do not have anyone in the US to borrow hisname from?
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It is not my intention to disrupt the private discussions here on the blog. I would just like to mention that for those, who take an interest in the political geography of Europe and in developments of European politics, the Poles yesterday signalised that they have found a new interest for the future. They have elected Kamorowski as new president.
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Re #247
As with all he writes MarcusAscarid feeds on himself: In this case,
"..We (USA) don't ration out life & death here..".
US Dept of Health & Human Services Report on Annual Life Statistics 2007:
760.2 deaths per 100,000 in USA - - an increase of 2.1% from 2006
77.9 years is average Life Expectancy
Heart disease 1st leading cause of death
Cancer 2nd leading cause of death
Stroke 3rd....
....
HOMICIDE 15th leading cause of death (this 'cause of death' does not register above 30th place in any EU Nation)
Differences in Death-Rates among various Demographic sub-populations:
White population 749.4 per 100,000 (infant mortality 9%)
Black population 958.0 per 100,000 (infant mortality 12%)
Average Risk of Death among Black population is 30% higher than for White population (increasing to 34% among age-group 65 and above).
CIA World Factbook - - Life Expectancy, 2009:
16 of the EU27 member Nations rank above the USA for Life Expectancy - -
Spain 6th/Sweden 7th/ France 10th/ Italy 12/ Austria 16/ Netherlands 17/ Greece 19/ Belgium 20/ Malta 21/ UK 22/ Germany 24/ Finland 25/ Cyprus 28/ Ireland 29/ Luxembourg 32/ Denmark 36...
USA is ranked 38th for Life Expectancy.
Its neighbour Canada is ranked 11th, i.e. 27 places higher than the USA.
Even Puerto Rica ranked at 36 'lives' longer than the USA.
Asia does well, with Japan ranked 1st & Hong Kong 2nd; Australia 6th & New Zealand 13th also way ahead of the USA; Israel, beset on all sides at 8th is 30 places higher! Non-EU, European nations Switzerland ranked 4th & Norway 14th also expose the US bounder's bellyaching inaccuracy.
No more humouring MarusAscarid: Henceforth, every time You can expect a veritable Hurricane Katrina of FACTS to shower on Your scribblings.
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MikeE-BCN
Re #244
Yeah, I was just having a laugh at the thought of all those MPs/Cabinet Ministers being directed by 'vice' PM - - let's face it - - there's so much of it going on it may be a better use of Public Money than some of the stuff they get up to!
Afghanistan?
I think without any evidence that PM Cameron (whom along with his Con Party I must declare from the outset I cannot abide) instinctively feels it's a 'no-win' campaign & is edging toward getting the UK Armed Forces out of it sooner rather than later: At least, certainly he (& I assume the British public) would like to adopt a much less 'front-line' role & give the British Army a lengthy breather from active combat.
Judging from the pathetic efforts of the French, Germany & Spain in Afghanistan why should the UK continue to carry an excessive NATO burden on behalf of EUrope?
We all know from Iraq circa 1992 that the biggest deployment of French will be Business-Contractors the moment the shooting match is over - - it's all they've been good at for decades - - going behind the backs of their supposed allies.
If UK could pull-back then it could redefine its long-term priorities & 'tailor' its planned re-equipment accordingly.
Let's face it, a grateful Nation, will as ever reward 'tommy atkins' for his daring-do of the last decade by cutting back on all UK 'surface' Armed forces the moment we can extract ourselves from this 'war on terror'.
At the sharp end - - the Troops will rightly continue to command Public Money & Attention - - for so long as they are taking these Casualties the PM cannot be seen (as jock Brown found to his diluted reputation) to back off a centimetre from giving 110% support in every way possible: The impact on his Coalition Government 'cuts' to Public Spending must be causing enormous friction - - today we read some Dept's face '40%' cut-backs in real terms on spending - - meanwhile UK Afghanistan commitment drains away at every proposed 'saving'.
Personally, I'm one of those left futilely furious the British Public are being forced to PAY TWICE for the greed-driven excesses of Banks/Financial Serices etc.
First, Brown without any Citizen consultation or approval takes enormous amounts of Tax-Payers Money to buy-up Bank debts.
Second, Cameron insists those same Tax-Payers must now PAY for the privilege of NOT seeing a single Senior Bank and/or Financial Executive face even a Criminal Charge for Financial Malfeasance/negligence never mind an actual Prison term!
Millions upon millions of UK Citizens are going to suffer and worst of all, British Armed Forces are having to cope with less & not first-rate equipment because the supply of those vital logistical support products is slowed to ease the Public Spending pressure! That at basics is the reason for all the delays with Helicopters, Armoured Personnel Carriers, Mine Detection devices etc.
DSIGUSTING!
One part of my 'planned' withdrawal from Afghanistan would be sending every UK Senior Bank/Finance Executive of the last decade to Kabul to do COMMUNITY SERVICE in the UK Armed Forces Latrines for 6 months minimum.
Am I being too lenient?
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CBW: That should put an end to the bizarre rants of ElagabalusII, but I have a feeling it will only make him more angry and irrational.
Well, Allen Teet-Too, you wrote: "ignorant and opportunity seekers that then go on to create, support, promote and perpetuate intolerance, divisiveness, hate and racism" Then you enquired as to whether I understand the word 'irony'.
Are you honestly telling me you don't infect these blogs with the express aim of doing exactly what you were pontificating against? I am not anti-American although I do have little but contempt for the Bible-bashing neo-cons because they 'create, support, promote and perpetuate intolerance, divisiveness, hate and racism'. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not convinvced you come here to put a stop to intolerance and hate? In fact the contributions posted under your name are generally laced with resentment, bitterness and irrational hatred for an entire population of a whole continent.
They are certainly not composed as a means of creating tolerance and understanding, are they? You are not here to engage in debate or discussion. You are here to regurgitate over and over your own bile about how the planet (especially Europe (especially Britain)) is 'anti-American'. I think we've all heard your one-eyed views now, so thank you...
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#258. At 10:30am on 05 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:,
Why in the latrines CBW, they would be better placed working in the community, lol.
With regard to extracting our forces from Afganistan, there is a ready made reason, they can simply be relocated to the Falklands to ensure the security of a part of the UK. Plus, the population will like them unlike now. An added impetus for this approach is that Obama is clearly holding a grudge against the UK and not supporting our right to be in the Falklands, he can't have it both ways so either he backs us or the UK exits Afghanistan. I prefer the latter as I trust Obama even less than I would trust the French.
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I was amazed to read of Mr. Hague's comments. For years the Conservative Party has been thoroughly eurosceptic, even though they will call themselves 'eurorealists', and now to have the sheer arrogance to ask not only that the UK take more posts in the EU organisations but that, having done so, they should wield more influence. Of course the UK should play its full role in the EU (after all they have been members for more than a generation) but unless and until they a) stop opting out of parts of the Treaties, b) stop being 'semi-detached' about all the issues, and c) learn more languages, they will never be accepted as a genuine member of the EU Club. Those who get the jobs in the EU organisations have, with a few notable exceptions, a thorough knowledge of the Institutions, and at least 1 or 2 other languages in which to converse with their fellow employees. The UK, and the Conservatives in particular, are regarded with considerable cynicism from the other fully engaged members of the EU.
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cbw - if you're really angry at MAII then ignore him. Otherwise, you're just betraying your "oh-so-furious" statements from earlier...
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#261 - bogatty
I am actually not amazed. Firstly, it is not entirely fair to characterize the Tory party as Euro sceptic. There has always been a schism in that party with a healthy number - amongst them distinguished figures such as Major, Howe, Hestletine, Carrington and Clarke who have always favoured the constructive engagement that appears to be the present government's chosen path. Moreover, it is not a Conservative government. They are in coalition with a broadly Euro enthusiastic party and they have to do more than lip service to maintain that. They also have to be realistic. Withdrawal from the EU is not really a credible option although plainly it is favoured by a number of Tories who have lacked the political willpower or honesty to make the journey to UKIP.
I would also question your assertion about languages. I have read some research somewhere that suggests that a higher proportion of Brits are either bi-lingual or multi-lingual than any other European country. I will of course agree that a large proportion of these will be speakers of non-European languages given the size of the immigrant population. In any case, English is rapidly becoming the de facto common language of the community.
However, you are right to suggest that the Tories are regarded with some scepticism by European centre right parties but I would suggest that this has more to do with the company they chose to keep in the European parliament since divorcing the mainstream centre right.
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Gheryando
Re #262
Sorry, was that You negatively commenting on my alleged '..militancy'!?
Maybe it's better if You spent a little more time considering how exactly You came to positively comment on someone who calls the British "..degenrates.." etc.
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cbw - you either hold grudges, or you're a girl. You're continuous reference to "whom" I agree with (be it any minor topic) is getting more boring by the minute. If you would be paying attention to what I actually say instead of screaming foul everytime I agree with someone who you do not like, then that would be a start.
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#261. At 10:59am on 05 Jul 2010, bogatty wrote:
"Of course the UK should play its full role in the EU (after all they have been members for more than a generation) but unless and until they a) stop opting out of parts of the Treaties, b) stop being 'semi-detached' about all the issues, and c) learn more languages, they will never be accepted as a genuine member of the EU Club."
Maybe you would care to name those countries that not only enact all EU treaties but actually obey them in their entirety, your points a) and b) can equally apply to most EU countries where a shrug of the shoulders and "c'est la vie" is the response of most to questions about why they have not followed EU law.
As to learn more languages I tend to agree in principle as I know two languages but what I find very disturbing is the trend to force dead, dying or little used languages onto the required languages list. We see that in many countries now including the UK with Scotland, Wales and Ireland, and my own Belgium is suffering from the imposed (from Flanders) need to learn Dutch rather than a universally useful language like English, French, Spanish etc. I have seen in Belgium this being used as a way to eliminate job applications from unwanted applicants and is very discriminatory eg job ads mentioning fluent Dutch and English only want Flemish applicants. Therefore whilst 'learn more languages' is a good thing is of no use if it simply perpetuates the translator culture of Brussels.
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cbw #257;
Totally irrational and irrelevant. As usual for you a non sequitur. Typical of the European mind, it takes a very complex subject and tries to simplify it to make a political point using flawed Euroneous logic. America does not have a tea break society. A year living in America is probably equal to about five in Britain. Where the adventuresome in Britain might take a drive through the Lake country, it's no comparison to hunting in Montana or even camping in Yellowstone Park. We do have guns and people do get killed with them. We also drive billions of miles more than Brits every year and we lose far more people in motor vehicle accidents. Most of us don't fret over every little twitch or twitter and run to the nearest "free" clinic every time we suffer a minor pang like a hypochondriac. We may not live as long as Brits but under conditions there who'd want to? Perhaps that explains why despite a shorter life expectancy here, so many Brits emigrate to the United States while the reverse is a rarity.
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string-a-ling 222
"CBW: That should put an end to the bizarre rants of ElagabalusII, but I have a feeling it will only make him more angry and irrational."
I am not angry. I hardly ever get angry. It takes a lot to get me angry. Believe me you don't want to be around me on those infrequent occasions when I am.
Perhaps I'm just a little frustrated becuase it is often so hard to get through the density to reach the Meuronic mind. I have to remember that it takes a lot of patience. There is clearly a high and wide wall around it that is not easily breached.
CBW doesn't like being reminded that he is European. But from a distance one Euro looks pretty much like another. A rat may see himself as much larger than a mouse but looking down from the top of Mount Olympus they both look pretty much the same. BTW, from the mouse's point of view it's also a matter of perspective. Often he think's he's the rat and the other country is the mouse. If you don't believe it and you are British, just ask a German by comparison which of the two he thinks is which.
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Buzet23
Re #260
Yes, I take Your ingenious point - - my, wouldn't those self-inflated greed-riven, no-marks from UK Banking Boards have a 'wail' of-a-time - - Yes, you're right, afterall, we couldn't risk such reckless societal misfits soiling the our Troops' toilet facilities: Far better employed sweeping Kabul streets.
I know You were slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I cannot agree on the Falklands solution: Let's face it, it is another 'no-win' though in this case for the Argies with or without a 'hand-of-a-cheat' in the mix - - for so long as the Falklands' population vote for rule from G.B. the U.N.O cannot sanction even discussions between the 2 principle Nations that would allow for the usurpation of Falkland Island residents' Human Rights.
There is also the Gibraltar aspect: If UK were to give way on Falklands then what of the equal if not more vexed question of Spain's illegitimate ambitions for the 'Rock'?
Also, I don't believe Pres Obama is hostile to the UK, I just think he has so many quite radical (by recent US standards, hence MAscarid's discomfort with them) policies up-in-the-air, he really doesn't have much time to spend on a Nation that is to all intents & purposes far more 'loyal' to USA viewpoints/strategies etc. than any other in EUrope, barring Poland. PM Cameron, for sure, isn't about to stuff Brussels with a 'cadre' of UK civil servants in-place or as rival of the numerous UK-USA ties.
So, my solution is for UK Armed Forces to return to British Isles' bases: Meanwhile, UK seeks a World International Defence Assistance Pact (WIDAP) in which we quit NATO (the axis-of-ill-intent, France-Brussels-Berlin can get on with their wretched EDF plans & start defending themselves & more importantly paying the real price for it): WIDAP would involve USA-Canada-Norway(hopefully)-UK-Nigeria-South Africa-India-Phillipines-Japan-Australia-New Zealand.
WebAlice: IMO, ideally, we should have Russia in WIDAP, but I presume the staus quo being what it is vis-a-vis Washington - Moscow relations, an 'associated defence commitment' is about as much as can be expected?
Israel (as a 'democracy' & regional Nuclear Power) & Turkey (as the EU axis-of-ill-intent are so fearful of letting them join the laughable 'ever closer union') are good choices for the Mediterranean WIDAP, however, as they seem about to have a full-on diplomatic spat it may take a little time to get to even 'associated' status.
The Philippines would also be a possibility: An important 'democratic' enclave among the welter of South China Seas' civil unrest hot-spots.
Why change the Defence Alliance?
I don't trust our so-called EUropean NATO allies at all.
PHEW! Went on a bit - - I do -- it joins my many other failings.
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cbw;
"I don't trust our so-called EUropean NATO allies at all."
As an American neither do I. And that includes Britain. When you see them release Megrahi on the flimsy pretext they did, you have to wonder which side they are really on.
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Re #268
"..Rat" = any of several rodents of the genus 'Rattus' (brown rat) (Oxford Dict.)
"..Rat" = This can also denote a 'turncoat' (from the superstition rats desert a sinking ship) - - Oxford Dict.
Both forms of 'rat' are known to carry the 'Ascarid' (ascaris): This parasitic nematode (Oxford Dict.) also found in the intestine of mankind is not susceptible to Meuronic intervention.
Ascarid will however eat off themselves when the environment is so hostile as to deny any other nourishment.
Hence, MAscaridII flourishes even as his WEB-life-shortening trivia mounts!
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#267 - MarcusAureliusII
"We also drive billions of miles more than Brits every year . . . "
Well look on the bright side. The sooner you melt the polar ice cap, the easier it will to get to the oil underneath it. By which time, the coastline probably will be in Montana.
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#269. At 1:00pm on 05 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:,
It is nice to dream and the thought of legions of formerly smug bankers doing community service in the provinces of Afghanistan is a dream I think most would enjoy.
You're right about the UN and the Falklands but don't forget Latin American dictators have never shown much notice of the UN before, and neither has any dictator for that matter, as the UN is just a toothless politically correct talking shop. Maybe a good part of our Afghanistan force should be placed there just in case the Argentine's suffer another red mist.
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Re #270
"American" = of, relating to the characteristics of the United States or its inhabitants; ..also, relating to to the continents.. North, Central, South.. (Oxford Dict.)
Given MAscaridII's scope of ludicrous 'americana' contributions one can only speculate as to his true 'genus' - - there is indication of a variety of taxonomic organisms sharing some similar characteristics, but none constitute a regular pattern (i.e. unclassified) - - therefore, likely this is a dying species and we are witnessing the death throes of the last of its kind.
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cbw;
"Both forms of 'rat' are known to carry the 'Ascarid' (ascaris): This parasitic nematode (Oxford Dict.) also found in the intestine of mankind is not susceptible to Meuronic intervention.
Ascarid will however eat off themselves when the environment is so hostile as to deny any other nourishment."
Yes the ascarid feed off each other. Socialists, Communists, Monarchists, Nazis, Fascists and under assorted other names they've been at war with each other for thousands of years. Only in the last century was it so bloody bad that America had to intervene twice to stop it and then even when so emaciated to stay for half a century as they were spoiling for another round yet again. And in all cases America allied itself with what was the least worst of a very sorry lot. Left to themselves will they have learned their lesson or will they be at each other's throats again? It isn't encouraging especially after the hostilities exchanged over the crisis in Greece, with the PIIGS, and the regurgitating of old poison you'd think was long ago digested and metabolized as it relates to Germany's dark past. I don't know if America can stand to intercede in another of their mutual self destructive exchanges. Next time I hope we just turn out backs and let the chips fall where they may.
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cbw, speaking of taxonomic organisms, with the demographic shift in the UK and the expatriation of so many native Anglo Saxons from the island at the same time as an influx of South Asians and others not indigenous to the region, at what point will you be concerned that the United Kingdom is being converted to Britanistan? Is the adoption of Sharia law and 89 Shari law courts as of a year ago cause for alarm or will you wait until Buckingham Palace is remodeled with minarets and converted to a Mosque?
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ElagabalusII wrote: "It takes a lot to get me angry. Believe me you don't want to be around me on those infrequent occasions when I am."
Really? Why would I not want to be around? What do you do? Do you hurt people? To me this type of statement makes you sound like a teenage boy proving his manhood. You know the type. Do you punch doors and shout, too?
Anyhow, there are levels of anger, and I believe yours is festering deep down inside. I believe you are angry because you have been brought up to love your country in an unconditional terms. You, AllenT2 and many others have great difficulty acknowledging any faults America has. When these faults are unavoidable you adopt the tactic of dismissing them, then belittling and insulting others in an attempt to deflect attention.
Your explanation of the USA's lower life-expectancy "We may not live as long as Brits but under conditions there who'd want to?" is not the work of a skilled debater, more those of someone carrying a large and bitter chip on their shoulder while nursing a difficult inferiority complex.
Prove me wrong.
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Having fought off foreign domination for centuries it seems incomprehensible that the Island nation would voluntarily subsume its national identity by voluntarily ceding its sovereignty of state to a spranational tyrannical monstrosity but that is precisely what Britain has done. It has also opened its door to a flood of those with entirely different cultures who are not assimilated but insist that what they brought with them should become the new dominance. Therefore it is not surprising that Britain has also ceded the sovereignty of its legal system, its courts in part already to a religious court entirely alien up to this point to the British nation. At what point will those who are still in the majority lose any hope of controlling the process and reverting to a homogenous unitary culture by assimilating the newcomers or will they be assimilated themselves into this radically different new form of society that is being created? The release of Megrahi and betrayal of that country with which they claim a special relationship is evidence that a shift in the perception of Britain's relative position in the world has already taken place. It seems merely a matter of time until the process is so advanced that Britain will be unrecognizable to those who emigrated to other parts only a few decades ago. Some who have visited in the recent past after a long stay away have told me that they already no longer recognize it. cbw, there are your taxonomic organisms, the now highly endangered species of Britanicus Europacanus. Extinction within our lifetime seems almost a certainty.
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String-a-ling;
"ElagabalusII wrote: "It takes a lot to get me angry. Believe me you don't want to be around me on those infrequent occasions when I am."
Really? Why would I not want to be around? What do you do? Do you hurt people?"
If words could kill they'd have hung me years ago.
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"CBW doesn't like being reminded that he is European. But from a distance one Euro looks pretty much like another. A rat may see himself as much larger than a mouse but looking down from the top of Mount Olympus they both look pretty much the same. "
MAII - sometimes I wonder whether you must be rofl-ing while writing your posts.
There is only one answer to your post:
http://ridingabuttertub.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/roflcopter.gif
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@272 threnodio_II
"Well look on the bright side. The sooner you melt the polar ice cap, the easier it will to get to the oil underneath it. By which time, the coastline probably will be in Montana."
Oh..my...
did nobody tell you?
Man-made global warming was a big hoax.
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Re: post 278
Isn't it odd how anyone, despite never having shown any inclination towards thoughtful debate, is able to become an authority on a subject while sitting at their PC.
I shall address your ctrl+V by saying that the Britain I live in now is an altogether more desirable place to live than in the 70s and 80s, so for the ex-pats you've supposedly garnered the opinions of I imagine it is unrecognisable.
As for your complaints about betrayal and the 'special relationship', few here have any misapprehensions about the relationship between our two countries despite the pledges of every one of your presidents (odd how they'd specifically address a delusion of the British public, but there you go). The case of Gary mcKinnon, and the extradition treaty in general leaves no room for doubt that America is more than content to bully its way through any concerns of its allies.
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Re #275, #276 & #278
No, remember, only 'FACT' from now on MAscaridII.
You don't get to pick & choose anymore cos everyone had a soft-spot for the leper-in-the-colony: Those days are over for You. Treatment has started & You don't get to miss the appointments.
"..intercede.." = when the good old US of A 'interposed' itself on behalf of any and everyone else Americans were only acting with the humanitarian grace that is a part of their nature.
You would always find that offensive - - because MAscarids on the other hand don't have an independent nature, so, they operate by basic unsustained fluid motions - - You know all too well what that is don't You MAII.
Afterall, You do it each & every time You post: You suck-in limitless waste material, gurgitate and funnel out the rear all the putrefaction.
Unfortunately for You that is not an 'intercession' anyone really bothers about: So, You end up buried in Your own... Fact, MAII, fact...
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Incidently, as you have made quite clear you are desperately keen that ignorance be left at the door of this blog, and you find the concept of being judged in the absence of a face-to-face meeting so offensive, I'd thought you'd appreciate me clearing a few things up for you.
Al Megrahi was freed by a Scottish court. You still with me? Scotland has a devolved government, they do not act on behalf of Britain. Many people in Scotland, and Britain as a whole, angrily disputed the decision at the time, and still do. In fact, the ruling is being inceasingly questioned as the man continues to live. You have chosen to use the bare fact to justify more of your hatred and resentment, and it is little slip ups like this that expose your true agenda, my friend.
We're pretty sharp on here, and any attempt to disguise a hidden agenda as rational argument are soon exposed.
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Re 292 - "America is more than content to bully its way through any concerns of its allies." you are right and Marcus, knowingly or unknowingly, adds his contribution to what actually occurs here.
Fact is that Hague is right to seek closer ties with Europe and therefore (yes, I know unsaid but that's diplomacy at work) lessen ties with USA. So UK is slowly waking up to the fact that there is no special relationship (with USA)? Why? Any serious study of what occurs here (USA) will come to the following conclusions. The USA (except for the state of Israel) always acts out of self-interest and the UK poodle nearly always follows.
Notwithstanding a natural affinity between a considerable number of USA/UK ordinary citizens the USA has done nothing for the UK and the political reality is that it could not care less. If you knew what does occur here you will know that the Zionists (this remark is not anti-Jewish as many courageous Jews also realize this) run the USA and the UK meekly follows. When history examines and makes judgment (personally I do not believe we will last long enough for that to occur) you will see that as far as Palestine is concerned, the West led by the USA and with UK complicity has acted without honor, integrity, conscience or morality for over 60 years and the world will pay a terrible penalty for that major corruption. That is the only special relationship the USA has (with Israel) and yes, it is about time the UK saw the reality. Will the UK stop being the USA (in reality the Israeli) poodle.
Answer: so yes hopeful strategy is for the UK to become closer to EU etc and perhaps return and again learn that international law, conscience, integrity, morality, and honour are not things to be ignored or despised not that the EU is exemplary.
Tragically the USA and UK, but especially the USA, have been complicit in denying Palestinians their basic human rights. An error of sufficient magnitude that history will deal fairly but very harshly with such ineptitude and, from an historical viewpoint, a corruption. It isn't going to go away and sooner or later the West will have to start dealing with it. Does the vision exist? Not at present but hope springs eternal! Turkey at least is giving moral leadership to the world and the EU (and hopefully in time UK) are slowly waking from their pro-Zionist slumbers.
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cbw, your signal is breaking up. It is becoming incoherent....even more than usual.
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string-a-ling;
"We're pretty sharp on here"
From what I've seen you're about as sharp as a bowl of soggy cornflakes.
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261.bogatty wrote: Of course the UK should play its full role in the EU (after all they have been members for more than a generation) but unless and until they a) stop opting out of parts of the Treaties, b) stop being 'semi-detached' about all the issues, and c) learn more languages, they will never be accepted as a genuine member of the EU Club.
Never accepted by whom? By unelected undemocratic EU-types in Brussels? Is it just me or do the most rabid of pro-EU/anti-democracy types always advocate that national governments and parliaments should just blindly obey the EU at all times, even though the EU is thorougly and deliberately undemocratic?
Tell me, why should national governments do what the EU want? In fact, I believe it is illegal for national governments to do what the EU wants if the people who elected said government disagree.
Those who get the jobs in the EU organisations have, with a few notable exceptions, a thorough knowledge of the Institutions
Does anyone else think of the word 'apparatchiks' here? Or perhaps premier Barroso and his fellow politburo kommissars?
The UK, and the Conservatives in particular, are regarded with considerable cynicism from the other fully engaged members of the EU.
The politicians may regard UK with cynicism, but the peoples do not. Remember, the EU was designed so politicians could bypass national parliaments and thus no longer have to represent their own electorates. In other words, bogatty, you don't speak for us, only for the Eurocrat apparatchiks and their hangers-on.
Did anyone else notice the typical EU-speak?
-"fully engaged" is EU speak for "do what Brussels want at all times without questioning" (ie befehl ist befehl)
-never accepted as genuine members [because of opt outs] is EU speak for "how dare they disobey their unelected Brussels masters"
I find it frightening that there are actually people who think national governments ought to be subject to the will of the EU politburo.
285.non-violence wrote: Turkey at least is giving moral leadership to the world and the EU (and hopefully in time UK) are slowly waking from their pro-Zionist slumbers.
Turkey and moral leadership? Don't make me laugh. What about the occupation of a large part of Kurdistan and decades long suppression of Kurdish language, culture and even denying them recognition as an autonomous group (ie Turkey using the word 'mountain Turk' instead of Kurd). I love it how countries like Turkey, Syria and Iran lecture Israel whilst all three have oppressed the Kurds for nearly a century now. Or take Morocco which has built the largest security wall on the planet in order to keep stealing Western Sahara resources.
And correct me if I am wrong, but I could not help notice a lot of hardcore left wing rhetoric based on propaganda rather than facts. Am I right?
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#284 - stirling222
"Al Megrahi was freed by a Scottish court".
No. His release on compassionate grounds was a decision by Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill. Had it been a judicial decision, hostile American reaction would have been misplace because there would have been no government involvement. I don't think we have yet sunk to the level at which American public opinion can influence due process but the bottom line is that it was a political decision and MacAskill could, had he wished to do so, have taken American views into account.
However, you are absolutely right that it was a matter within Scottish jurisdiction and nothing whatever to do with government at Westminster. The suspicion of Al Megrahi's continued survival suggesting that the Secretary was incorrectly advised regarding prognosis continues to grow in some minds but what is done is done. He can hardly be called back.
That having been said, it is the case that the device was almost certainly loaded at Frankfurt, it exploded in British airspace and it crashed on Scottish soil. the fact that the airliner was operated by an American carrier and a disproportionately large number of the victims were American does not entitle them to claim any kind of jurisdiction. If a previous government had given private undertakings to an American administration as to how long Al Megrahi would be detained, they were wrong to do so. I am sure that some American posters here would be the first people to jump up and down if British pressure was seen to applied to the US judicial process so the reverse must also apply.
I do not ask our American friends to be happy about the decision but I do expect them to respect the right of MacAskill to act as he thought fit at the time and single out that decision as an example of 'betrayal' is little short of childish, especially on a thread which has nothing whatever to do with it.
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131.mivadar wrote: I am just silently wondering from the side-lines when Europeans will grow out of their silly little tribes, entirely irrelevant on the international stage on their own by now, and actually self-identify as European.
[facepalm]
Not the 'give all power to the EU, because otherwise we have no influence' argument again.
When are people finally going to realize that we oppose the EU because it is fundamentally and deliberately undemocratic? It was imposed upon us. We did vote 'NO' against the 'treaty establishing constitution for Europe' only to have it imposed upon us anyway by politicians who feared that they might miss out on the massive gravy train that is the EU.
It has nothing to do with not wanting friendship, holidays, trade etc... with the rest of Europe. Remember: we do not need the undemocratic EU in order to have friendship, holidays or trade. The EU is not in any sense a necessary thing. Well, maybe for politicians who dislike national parliamentary democracy it is, and for bankers who want Germany to pay for Greece, but not for anyone else. In short: the EU is NOT NEEDED.
My view is simple: democracy first, opt-in referendums first, and political union (if any) after. Not the other way around. Only with specific 'beforethefact' popular consent and proper liberal democratic setup could I live with any form of political union. But not with EU that was set up to avoid and circumvent democracy. And by 'live with political union' I do mean that I would not be enthusiastically in favor of it but could accept it (under mentioned circumstances only).
We really need to keep reminding people how the EU serves no purpose since we don't need it for holidays, friendship or trade. People who are anti-EU are also pro-Europe and pro-democracy. The real 'anti-Europeans' are those who love the EU.
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its easy to claim it was a "scottish" court not a "british" one.. Just twist it however convenient...
gbdq
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'We really need to keep reminding people how the EU serves no purpose since we don't need it for holidays, friendship or trade. People who are anti-EU are also pro-Europe and pro-democracy. The real 'anti-Europeans' are those who love the EU.'
what a load of rubbish. Off to the landfill.
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threnodious;
"I do not ask our American friends..."
After Megrahi you no longer have any. The last few conceded that the UK is no friend of America's. So you are admitting that the UK government lied when it promised in return for America giving up all claims to extradite and try Megrahi in an American court the UK would keep him imprisoned for life if he were tried and convicted in a Scottish court. I never thought the British government could be trusted and this is just more evidence that it can't be. Even many of the British people don't trust it to keep its word such as its promise for a referendum on the EU or Lisbon, why should Americans trust it either?
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"cbw, your signal is breaking up. It is becoming incoherent....even more than usual"
"From what I've seen you're about as sharp as a bowl of soggy cornflakes"
Ah... The unmistakable noises of a trapped nationalist. Devoid of anything but childish contempt, Elagabalus? It is usually those capable only of shallow thought that allow reactionary emotion to dictate the style of argument, employed.
I think I can rest my case.
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288 mvr12 - tell me what facts you require and I'll provide them. Generally I'm non-political but I do believe in international law and an integral part of that is justice, fairness, application of integrity, equity, morality etc.
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#293 - MarcusAureliusII
"After Megrahi you no longer have any (friends). . . "
We have plenty Marcus. You just don't happen to be one of them.
"So you are admitting that the UK government lied when it promised in return for America giving up all claims to extradite and try Megrahi in an American court the UK would keep him imprisoned for life if he were tried and convicted in a Scottish court".
No. Quite the opposite. I am saying that, in the improbable event that any such unequivocal promise was ever made, the government which made had no right or authority to do so. Also remember that, in a democracy, no government can commit a future administration to a future course of action save by solemn and binding treaty. The Scots now have their own separate administration and no authority in Westminster could bind them to any such agreement.
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threnodious you can dance around it any way you like but from our perspective your government lied. Just go into any bar in America from the lowliest working man's tavern to the most posh country club and ask Americans what they think of the UK after you mention the name Megrahi and you will get virtually universal contempt and derision of your government. That you have friends among the American people is one more purely delusional British fantasy.
Do you deny that he was released on claims of so called humanitarian grounds because he had cancer and less than three months to live? Yet here we are nearly a year later and I've seen no obituary mentioning his death. So was it the usual British government lies or the usual British medical system incompetence that is to blame?
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293 - MarcusAureliusII "After Megrahi you no longer have any (friends). . ." don't you think I takes a real excess of hubris to believe you are speaking for 300+ Americans :) I live here and have many friends but glad to say their statements do not usually reflect a propensity towards being bigoted, prejudiced, opinionated etc
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n-v;
See my posting #297. BTW, remind me never to vote for you as commander-in-chief of any military force whose job it is to protect me or hire you as my personal body guard. I don't think you are cut out for either. And yes, I know many more than 300 Americans who are less than thrilled with the British government so I think I can speak for them.
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Why would we care what the drinkers of America think, Elagabalus? As has been alluded to previously, we can all imagine the reaction we'd get from you if we dared suggest how your US prosecutors should do their jobs, despite it directly effecting a vulnerable British citizen. So I suggest you imagine your reaction to that situation, and tell it to yourself, because the Scots are allowed to decide what happens to prisoners in Scotland, not you, your government or the bar flies of the USA.
Again, what we see here is the arrogance and frustration of a right wing American who believes America should be allowed to impose its will on other countries. I've never heard of this promise you've declared as historical fact, but what on Earth do you think would give America the right to demand such conditions? The USA is still the most powerful country, but that's all it is: a country. You are not the world's court or the world's policeman, you just act like it sometimes.
The Lockerbie bombing was a crime committed in Scotland. Yes, the majority of victims were US citizens, but that doesn't give the US the right to dictate to Scotland or Britain. If you don't like it, tough. You get no say in our decision-making.
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299 - MarcusAureliusII - don't worry I keep well away from yours truly mindsets but am of the opinion that as the rapid decline of USA continues, some mindsets will have the greatest in adjusting and will retreat into fatuous comments and silly scoring of points - and yes should have read 300+ million Americans - however for those that believe that what goes around comes around USA has deservedly a very tough time ahead and your contributions do nothing to compensate for the self-interest and greed that has dominated corporate thinking and policy supported by political indifference - as a good American friend says "the party is over" and like me he is glad not because of anything personal but because we perceive the results of USA foreign policy etc
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
n-v, a lot of people have sold America short and written it off in the past and they were always wrong. Whatever America's trials and tribulations now, America has suffered, survived, and prospered after far worse and more than once. There is every reason to believe it will again. I'm not so sure about other parts of the world though. They seem in terminal decline to me.
buzz-saw 222
When people are at a bar and having a drink or three, they are off their guard and will tell you what they are really thinking, things they might not ordinarly say. They don't say people's tongues get oiled for nothing.
"we can all imagine the reaction we'd get from you if we dared suggest how your US prosecutors should do their jobs, despite it directly effecting a vulnerable British citizen."
As a matter of fact we had just such a case about 15 or 20 years ago. A British Au pair girl was hired as a nanny I think in the Boston area. She didn't like her job, she was unhappy, and one day while she was alone baby sitting she shook her employer's baby to death. The evidence was overwhelming and she was convicted. The judge in the case committed jury nullification and let the girl go free back to England. Also a bad move but it blows your theory to smithereens.
and here it is;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/31/newsid_2463000/2463863.stm
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Re my censored #302
It referred to the ".. incoherent.." contributions at #286, #287 & #293:
Congratulations MODS: Some Moderation gives even me a laugh! It is so obviously made without any idea of the contextual background to content the CENSORSHIP becomes in itself a mark of credit for the victim!
Apparently MAscaridII I'm not allowed to point out in more lurid terms Your allusion to "..trust.." was You misreading 'truss' whose support most of us believe You have long since been dependent on.
I did add that Your reference to "..soggy cornflakes.." as an admission of Your being capable of only eating pulped cereal had our sympathy, but could never excuse You or expunge Your extremely bad-taste.
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303 - MarcusAureliusII - having written a great deal on ancient civilizations including reasons for their decline, I have never previously described USA as in decline but you might like to peruse the following (and I have similar evidence a'plenty!).
Russia has the world's third largest foreign currency reserves and assets of just under USD$500 billion, on the other side, it has government foreign debt of US$32bn and private sector debt of about US$500bn, a very balanced and liquid financial position. In Contrast the USA has foreign currency reserves and assets just over US$200bn - during the administration of President George W. Bush, the gross debt increased from $5.6 trillion in January 2001 to $10.7 trillion by December 2008, rising from 58% of GDP to 70.2% of GDP. During March 2009, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that gross debt will rise from 70.2% of GDP in 2008 to 100.6% in 2012. A real money problem? Most would think so - won't go down the road that the USA and the UK to a lesser extent still seems to have money to burn as far as going to war is concerned
Following data relating to physical science and engineering PhD.s was assembled by Professor R. E. Smalley, a Nobel Prize-winning scientist from Rice University. His disturbing conclusion: “By 2010, 90 percent of all PhD. physical scientists and engineers in the world will be Asian living in Asia.” Why are these figures important? Traditionally, it usually is technical human talent that determines industrial success. Basic science, technology, engineering and mathematics knowledge is vitally important in the business world. For perspective, over 50 percent of the CEOs of the USA Fortune 100 companies come from a technical background.
Data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) - the scores of USA students across the 4th, 8th, and 12th grade levels are abysmal. For example, in science, only two percent of USA 12th graders are rated advanced and only sixteen percent are rated proficient. Etc, etc - you may not like it but the USA is in rapid decline as many, many more indicators show.
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295. At 4:23pm on 05 Jul 2010, non-violence wrote:
288 mvr12 - tell me what facts you require and I'll provide them.
Here we go:
285.non-violence wrote: If you knew what does occur here you will know that the Zionists run the USA and the UK meekly follows.
Dress it up anyway you like but I believe this 'argument' has shades of brown.
Tragically the USA and UK, but especially the USA, have been complicit in denying Palestinians their basic human rights.
Nonsense. It's the Arabs who do that. No one in the west has anything to gain from denying people human rights. Arab muslim countries have a lot to gain, however. Without the question of 'Palestine' they could not in any way legitimately (if one must use that word) bash Israel. Maybe if the Palestineans stopped backing the national socialist palestinean workers party (Hamas, and yes it more or less means what I said) there could be some progress. And there is not a single islamic country on the planet that has anything near the respect for human rights that Israel does, not even close.
Turkey at least is giving moral leadership to the world and the EU (and hopefully in time UK) are slowly waking from their pro-Zionist slumbers.
I think I addressed this one already (oppression committed by Turkey against Kurdistan). I won't stand for hypocrisy. Remember, it is not Israel who is the agressor in this conflict, it was Arab states cheered on by nazis who came there 'fleeing justice'.
292.Gheryando wrote: what a load of rubbish. Off to the landfill.
I notice you did not attempt to prove that the EU is a necessary prerequisite in order to have friendship, holidays and trade. And of course, that is because no one can prove such a ludicrous thing.
So please explain: how exactly is the EU needed for anything? Why do you want to keep this fundamentally and deliberately undemocratic monstrosity alive? You dream of an EU-job in the EU bureaucracy?
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Re: the World Cup
You know what I like most about the World Cup? No sight of those unelected clowns of the EU like premier Barroso. I wonder if they haven't already proposed the EU flag to be flown next to every flag of participants that are members of the undemocratic EU. The whole thing must piss the pro-EU/anti-democracy crowd off, and I love that.
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I'm sure glad y'all don't have access to nuclear weapons.
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mvr512
Re #306
Some very good & well made points: You are of course opposed by the re-writer-revisionist Historians who if given enough leeway will tell You it is Israel that invites itself to be threatened with being "pushed into the sea", by the likes of Ahdminejad's Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria & all those other notable Arab Human Rights supporters of the Middle East!
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Response to 306. Sure, I'll answer your points but as some answers are long will post one by one - also as I'm off hiking, playing bridge and dancing in that order, posts will have to be fitted in and not necessarily in order.
Response 1: From earliest times many groups and tribes laid claim to the land of Canaan, Judah, Palestine or other names depending on who ruled or settled the area. As far as international law is concerned, there is little evidence for any ethnic group or race to make claim to the land that we now know as Palestine and Israel. However, many believe that Israel is a legitimate nation established in 1948 by a vote of the United Nations - not so. The only vote was by the UN General Assembly and that organization can only make recommendations. Needless to say the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab League firmly opposed this UN recommendation and even rejected its authority to involve itself in the entire matter.
They upheld that international law was on their side and that "that the rule of Palestine should revert to its inhabitants, in accordance with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations." According to Article 73b of the Charter, the UN should develop self-government of the peoples in a territory under its administration. All the Arab countries opposed the plan and wanted to send the matter to the International Court of Justice. They asked, and it is difficult not to see why this is not a lawful and legitimate request, why did the UN General Assembly believe it had the power to partition a country against the wishes of the majority of its inhabitants and of course, according to international law the UNGA does not and has never had that power.
On 14 May 1948, 6 p.m. eastern standard time (12:00 midnight in Palestine) while the Special Session of the UN General Assembly was still discussing placing Palestine under UN trusteeship, Israel declared, with USA complicity, independence. At 6:11 p.m. Eastern Standard Time the White House, on behalf of Truman, issues a statement recognising the state of Israel.
Officials from Washington rush to the UN to prevent the entire USA delegation from resigning. Marshall was USA Secretary of State George Marshall, Robert A. Lovett his Under Secretary of State and both subsequently resigned from their posts in 1949.
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Response 2: Human rights - utter hypocrisy - Might like to reflect on the following - I receive these every 24 hours or thereabouts
Israeli incursion: Khan Yunis homes and farms under fire – crops bulldozed
Israeli troops shoot their way into villagers' homes – vandalism
Occupation troops abduct 17-year-old youth
Night peace disruption and/or home invasions in 7 towns and villages
2 attacks – 12 raids including home invasions
28 taken prisoner – 17 detained – 79 restrictions of movement
Home invasions & occupations: 01:00, the village of Zububa - 01:00-04:15, the town of Az-Zababida - 03:55, the village of Deir Samit.
Peace disruption raids: 00:30, the village of Raba - 01:00, the town of Meithalun - 01:00, the village of Sair - 01:00, the village of Sirees - 02:00, Nablus - 19:30, the village of Al Auja - 10:35, Hebron - 14:10, Hebron - 12:00, the town of Dura.
Palestinian attacks: none
Israeli attack – agricultural sabotage: Khan Yunis – 11:00, Israeli armoured vehicles and bulldozers, covered by reconnaissance aircraft, invaded farms in Al Farahin, opening intense fire on houses and agricultural areas, and bulldozing crops.
Israeli attack – home invasions – vandalism: Hebron – 03:55, Israeli troops raided the village of Deir Samit, closed all the entrances with checkpoints and shot their way into villagers' homes, vandalising the interiors by detonating stun grenades. Twenty residents were taken prisoner and a number of others were detained.
Abduction: Hebron – Israeli soldiers abducted a 17-year-old youth, Islam Muhammad Ibrahim Irzaiqat, at the road junction leading to the village of Zif.
Home invasions: Jenin – 01:00, the Israeli Army raided the village of Zububa, invaded a number of houses, ejecting families into the streets and holding them there, and left orders for six people to report to Israeli Military Intelligence.
Home invasions: Jenin – 01:00-04:15, Israeli troops raided the town of Az-Zababida and searched a house.
House demolition: Jerusalem – the Israeli Occupation district municipality confirmed 22 house demolition orders in the neighbourhood of Silwan for the development of a settlement (public parks) project.
Occupation settler violence: Qalqilya – 22:00, a stone-throwing mob from the settlement of Qadumim smashed the windscreen of a taxi on the nearby main Qalqilya-Nablus road.
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Response 3: The Zionist mindset - Parash Hill is a nature reserve in southern Israel. With a view all the way to the Mediterranean and located in a picturesque setting, it is an ideal place for a picnic and where one can quietly enjoy nature and the beautiful and lush surroundings. During the invasion of Gaza this serene and tranquil place took on another role, namely a place where one could watch in total safety the Israeli military operation. Now instead of taking family pictures, Israelis with their binoculars could watch their military massacre the Palestinians. Apparently, many of those that were there were jubilant as the Israeli war machine massacred a civilian population!
How do ordinary people rationalize away the deaths of over 1,300 civilians including hundreds of children? I haven’t an answer except to say I can only hope it is a minority that get satisfaction from seeing so many innocents killed, the word should really be murdered. I believe that some Israelis, sadly a minority, now call Parash Hill “The Hill of Shame.” and watch disapprovingly as others participate in Israelis newest spectator sport.
However, I believe it is an unhealthy mindset that gets satisfaction from the death and suffering of others and it would appear that many Israelis are involved in just that. There is even an obsession with watching the violence and if that is the case there is also a sickness, a sickness that indicates a lack of empathy, of conscience, of consideration towards fellow human beings that should bring shame on those with such views. If they do not feel any of those things then what is occurring? I have my opinion but I have no doubt that if I gave it this post would be removed!
Will post other facts and evidence later but I believe the Zionist mindset is self-evident etc.
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#303 - MarcusAureliusII
Oh yes, the Woodward case. Thank you for reminding us. Did you actually read the contents of the link you posted?
"None of the jury "thought she tried to murder him," one member said".
So why did they convict?
Try again Marcus.
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last response for now - got to go.
Response 4: Why should the USA and Europe who refused to accept more than a token handful of Jewish immigrants and refugees believe they can impose on another country's sovereignty when they would not for one moment give away their rights of national sovereignty and certainly would not agree to another country dictating those rights. (Arthur Koestler's description "one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third. More than that, the country was still part of the Empire of a fourth, namely Turkey.")
Arabs were the overwhelming majority in Palestine for nearly 1300 uninterrupted years so why should they accept 600,000 foreigners with many hundreds of thousands more to come. Why should Palestine, which is innocent of anti-Semitism, pay for the crimes of Europe - why indeed?
If there is to be any hope for future solutions the Western powers need to start applying international law etc in a fair, balanced manner.
At present, mainly due to USA support of the Zionist position there is very little development and this present situation will remain while Zionists have such a major disproportionate influence in the USA; and the UK blindly and meekly follows. Meanwhile Israeli atrocities continue year after year and because the USA meekly followed by the UK accept such atrocities this appalling situation will continue but not indefinitely as the USA declines and the Arab countries at long last put their act together. Finally, China and Russia will also finally come into play etc.
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305. non-violence
Powerful nations come and go. I am, however, reminded of a quote attributed to Mark Twain. "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."
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ElagabalusII wrote: "As a matter of fact we had just such a case about 15 or 20 years ago. A British Au pair girl was hired as a nanny I think in the Boston area. She didn't like her job, she was unhappy, and one day while she was alone baby sitting she shook her employer's baby to death. The evidence was overwhelming and she was convicted."
Classic case of reseach by Google, in a hurry! Unfortunately for you that is quite a well-known case here after she was labelled the most infamous criminal in Boston, or something. Overwhelming evidence?!? Not one member of the jury thought she meant to kill the child and her conviction was reduced to manslaughter. The judge let her go home because her sentence was up. At what point do you think the British government acted on Ms Woodward's behalf?
Those smithereens of my theory were large enough to be simply glued back together with my vague memory and a quick search for her name! If my memory has failed me on this one (and it is possible) please feel free to correct me.
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266. At 12:14pm on 05 Jul 2010, Buzet23 wrote:
"""As to learn more languages I tend to agree in principle as I know two languages but what I find very disturbing is the trend to force dead, dying or little used languages onto the required languages list."""
No no no… we have to be clear in that 1 native language + 2 foreign languages is the strict minimum to be considered educated (apart perhaps from English and French native speakers for whom 1+1 is the basic requirement). Myself speak fluently (well… do not judge my texts here! Even in Greek my texts are horrible with the speed I type and the lack of corrections…) English and French and in the past I could speak a bit more Spanish and I srubbed bits and parts in Bulgarian… but I can't lie, I do speak fluently only 2 foreign languages and that is what I personally consider semi-illiterate. Thanx to the conscious efforts of the modern socialist Greek state of the 80s (when I got my education) I also did not learn how to read and write properly the grammar of any of the ancient Greek dialects which are the root of what I speak today but still inspite of their hideous effort I am still able to read up to the times of Christ, i.e. the New Testament, I read the original without much of trouble but more ancient than that it gets more difficult, Homer is like a puzzle, but often I might translate a phrase or two…
"""Belgium is suffering from the imposed (from Flanders) need to learn Dutch rather than a universally useful language like English, French, Spanish etc. I have seen in Belgium this being used as a way to eliminate job applications from unwanted applicants and is very discriminatory eg job ads mentioning fluent Dutch and English only want Flemish applicants."""
No no no… and again no. Belgium is 60% Flemish and 40% Walons. Why don’t Walons learn Dutch? Dutch is spoken by some 30 million or so, not any particularly small language unless compared to Chinese! Every single Flemish I have met has discussed with me in French (but they do turn in English as soon as they find out I speak both, which I respect, its their choice). Every single Walon I met was not able to scrub 2-3 words in Flemish. It is a shame. No no no .. even if I consider the Dutch language quite unstylish (which is my personal taste of course, nothing more) with more "fff"s and "hhhh"s in 1 word than in 100 pages of Spanish, I do recognise that the Flemish do well to demand the obvious. Every single Walon should be in position to speak at least the basics and work the along with his Flemish co-patriots (if I can use the term here properly).
“””Therefore whilst 'learn more languages' is a good thing is of no use if it simply perpetuates the translator culture of Brussels.”””
Here we partly agree. It goes without saying that everything has to be translated into all native European languages. Incuding Maltese yes. But not directly. Via English or French or ancient Aolian Minor Asian Greek dialect of the 8th B.C. century if you like . I.e. there should be no other direct translation among languages: use 1 language as a currency and translate everything via that language. This way, no need for huge costs as each country needs hire only a few English speaking translators for inwards as well as outwards translations. A little bit of common sense!
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285. At 3:16pm on 05 Jul 2010, non-violence wrote:
"""Turkey at least is giving moral leadership to the world and the EU (and hopefully in time UK) are slowly waking from their pro-Zionist slumbers."""
Eeeeee wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhat? are you out of your mind? 3 genocides totalling 4 million slaughtered + 3 million violent expulsed, only state that managed successfull to ethnically cleanse the 100% of the 40% of its population not even a century ago, an event it refused internationally and celebrates with vegence internally.. the slaughters, the pongroms, the invasions and ethnic cleansing, bloodshed, napalm bed bombing, threats of military attacks against all its neighbours...
Mate what kind of mind would think for a moment what you just said above... Israel is mother Teresa in front of what Turkey has done in the last 100 years. Take it back or I will come back for more rapping!
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#297
Marcus,
The BBC report is a watered-down version of this.
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"Every single Walon should be in position to speak at least the basics and work the along with his Flemish co-patriots (if I can use the term here properly)."
I agree. Its like where I'm from. Many Italians don't speak German but all German speakers speak decent Italian.
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Allen T2 and Marcus
That was close !
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/04/2944253.htm
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@305 non-violence
"Professor R. E. Smalley, a Nobel Prize-winning scientist from Rice University. His disturbing conclusion: “By 2010, 90 percent of all PhD. physical scientists and engineers in the world will be Asian living in Asia.” Why are these figures important? Traditionally, it usually is technical human talent that determines industrial success. Basic science, technology, engineering and mathematics knowledge is vitally important in the business world. For perspective, over 50 percent of the CEOs of the USA Fortune 100 companies come from a technical background."
I don`t want to belittle Asian progress. In fact, I think that this and the following century will be Asia`s.
But as someone who has lived in Asia, I can tell you that a university degree over there does not necessarily equal one from Europe or North America.
For example, around 70% of the younter Taiwanese generations hold university degrees. But there are only 4, maybe 5 universites that can actually compete with western standards.
Those few universities, however, produce highly skilled graduates, some even at top international level.
Bottom line is that many universities in Taiwan (and the rest of Asia as well) should rather be compared to what we westerners know as vocational school.
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#321
It's all subjective.......
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NON-VIOLENCE,
why do you call yourself non violence when you clearly portray an attitude of violence against Israel and the US?
It's clear that you would like to see the destruction of Israel and the US. You should watch what you wish for because a wish for others is a wish for yourself.
Your name and attitude is an oxymoron.
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n-v;
First of all, insofar as the state of the American educational system and the lack of promoting students to achieve much higher standards and enter careers in science and engineering I agree completely. Having said that, having been around engineers and scientists all my life being an engineer myself, I can assure you that American trained engineers are on a plane not only unequaled in most of Asia but not approacheed even in Europe. So is American entrepreneurship and its rewards. Of those who are capable in Asia, many of the best will come here to receive further education, to work and live here, or to hire on to Asian plants or subsidiaries of American corporations. America is about making money and that is where talent goes even if it does not live in or come from the United States.
I'm not worried about the figures you cite regarding Russia. America's financial problems are fixable and should be temporary. There is going to have to be a readjustment though, probably painful for some in the way the government and industry are run. That is inevitable as the current circumstances are clearly unsustainable. Russia's long term prospects are far more ominous. It is a third world backwater that lives of the sale of oil and gas. Its infrastructure, conditons of living, of its social services are abyssmal. It has little prospect of ever being a desirable place to live or work. It has a population in decline losing about one million a year net. It suffers massive drug addiction, crime, alcoholism, and other social ills. I don't know of any Western nation that would voluntarily trade places with it. People take their chances with traffickers just to flee the place in the hope of getting out of there just the way they flee China. Yes there are a relative handful of success stories and things have improved for some since the Communist era ended but on the whole it is grim with a bleak future.
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It was announced today that the UK will be holding a Referendum next year.
If it is so easy to hold a Referendum on changing the method for voting for Members of the UK Parliament at Westminster why not throw in a few extra questions in the Referendum at the same time. I can think of one very easy question that is to the point and can be answered with a simple "Yes" or "No" to give the UK Electorate their long-awaited say on UK membership of the EU.
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?" is just as easy a question (if not more so!) as asking people whether they want less UK MPs, to have the UK adopt the AV+ Electoral System and adopt changes to the boundaries of the UK Parliamentary Constituencies so that all MPs each represent an equal number of constituents!
If the UK Government need to ask the UK Electorate for permission to change the UK Electoral System, the number of parliamentarians there should be going forward and for constituency boundary changes ... why is the UK Government not prepared to ask the UK Electorate about continued UK Membership of the EU for the very same permissions and consent going forward?
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#325 MarcousAurellius
Re Russia `Its infrastructure, conditions of living, of its social services are abysmal´
Since when were YOU interested in the welfare of OUR poor ?
You really should ´cross the tracks´ and take a look !
When DID you last take a look!!!!
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#326 Menedemus
Are you going to depart from this world without realizing how Britain `Functions´?
You have the question --- and the answer, if you are open minded.
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#324 Lochraven
http://www.aipac.org/
Here is your answer which may help you to understand #314 (non-violence) ---and others !
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After celebrating our Independence Day, I would like to thank the following Europeans:
Thomas Paine
Frederick William Augustus Henry Ferdinand von Steuben
Marie-Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de La Fayette
Lieutenant Général des Armées Navales François-Joseph Paul, marquis de Grasse Tilly, comte de Grasse
Louis-Auguste de France
Last but not least, General Sir Henry Clifton KB (born in Newfoundland, later to return to England).
There are more to thank, but this is a good start. Not a John Doe in the bunch.
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MaudDib, Yo.
You don't remember by any chance what state of all states was David from?
It is something central but I think more to the right. Winter snow storms such that electric wires get broken and in summer I think it's very hot but about summer I am not sure.
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261. At 10:59am on 05 Jul 2010, bogatty wrote:
" ...
Of course the UK should play its full role in the EU (after all they have been members for more than a generation) but unless and until they a) stop opting out of parts of the Treaties, b) stop being 'semi-detached' about all the issues, and c) learn more languages, they will never be accepted as a genuine member of the EU Club."
EUpris: We dot have to fulfil any more conditions to entitled to influence this "club."
We pay billions for this rubbish every year. That is enough. It is too much.
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292. At 4:11pm on 05 Jul 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"'We really need to keep reminding people how the EU serves no purpose since we don't need it for holidays, friendship or trade. People who are anti-EU are also pro-Europe and pro-democracy. The real 'anti-Europeans' are those who love the EU.'
what a load of rubbish. Off to the landfill."
EUpris: You, Gheryando are the one talking rubbish. If you know of anything for which we need the "EU", please tell us what it is.
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262. At 11:29am on 05 Jul 2010, Gheryando wrote:
cbw - if you're really angry at MAII then ignore him. Otherwise, you're just betraying your "oh-so-furious" statements from earlier...
EUpris: I walked down the road and a Chihuahua barked at me. I didn't bark back.
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244. At 8:56pm on 04 Jul 2010, MikeE-BCN wrote:
"To Cool_Brush-Work re the RH Nick Clegg ..."
EUpris: RH stands for Right Honourable. So what justification is there for calling Clegg Honourable given his stance on the Lisbon Treaty?
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331 WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
"MaudDib, Yo.
You don't remember by any chance what state of all states was David from?
It is something central but I think more to the right. Winter snow storms such that electric wires get broken and in summer I think it's very hot but about summer I am not sure."
David seemed to disappear on or around June 6 following three disallowed posts. But if memory serves, I think the state was Ohio. But you know, it could havd been Illinois or Indianna.
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In response to those who accuse me of being anti-Jewish (usual term used is anti-Semitic but as the majority of Arabs are also Semites, the term is inaccurate) I add the following to indicate otherwise. It is clear from quotes by Israeli prime ministers since 1948, that they believe they have a God-given right to the land of Israel. This sickness manifests itself in many ways but it is also clear that the West, as they did in the 1930s in not to dissimilar circumstances, acquiesce and accept the outpourings of an extremely efficient propaganda machine; in this case the Zionist propaganda machine.
It should be made clear that my comments are against the sickness of Zionism; they are not anti-Jewish as many Jews and Jewish organizations in Israel and around the world also realise the folly, stupidity and arrogance of the Zionist viewpoint. For myself, I have written three teaching packs on the Ancient Israelites extolling the rich heritage of the Jews, go to a Jewish Family Centre about twice a week to meet friends and have lunch, occasionally have taught dancing at the Centre, acted in a short play celebrating the Festival of Purim, have a Jewish friend of over thirty years, used to have a Jewish roommate, bridge partner etc.; was even asked if I would start a branch of Jews against Zionism organization! All these are hardly point to someone who is anti-Jewish.
Israeli policy is clear. Zionists believe they possess a God-given right to drive out the Palestinians. That is their goal and they will continue to pursue it. As such they believe in a superior ethnicity; a considerable amount of information is available to support this statement. Western politicians do not see it but then again they did not see the dreadful and appalling example of the last century until very late and they supported the second worst example until it was clear it was not viable. Therefore it should not be any surprise that they do not see it now. The big difference is, of course, that every day the West does nothing but acquiesce to this sickness brings us ever nearer to Armageddon (Israel possessing over 250 nuclear weapons).
I would also add there are many courageous Jews (sadly very much in the minority in Israel) who realize the extreme folly of basing a society on a superior ethnicity. Human rights groups or organization in Israel include Adalah - The legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, Amnesty International - Israel Section, Breaking the Silence, B'Tselem - the Israeli, Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, Bimkom - Planners for Planning Rights, Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, Hamoked - Center for the Defense of the Individual, Physicians for Human Rights - Israel, Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, Rabbis for Human Rights, The Association for Civil Rights in Israel and Yesh Din - Volunteers for Human Rights.
There are many other Jewish groups outside Israel fighting for justice for Palestinians; one of the most well known in the UK is "Jews for Justice for Palestinians" http://jfjfp.com/ Many Jews, individually, are appalled by the actions of the present Israeli government. For example, as one brave Jew in London said, on a notice he/she placed in his/her window, "Zionism is the sickness of the Jews." If one accepts the above, one also appreciates that the so-called two state solution will not work.
The point needs emphasizing. A society that believes its ethnicity is superior to any other, will, in the long term, fail. Even a cursory examination of last century indicates two societies that not only believed in a superior ethnicity but which implemented policies that we now find totally repugnant. Both failed because eventually the world saw the societies for what they were. Eventually they will see the present Israeli society and its policies for what they are and there is a considerable amount of evidence to indicate the dreadful and repugnant nature of that society and its policies.
To a small extent we have all suffered because of the dreadful corruption that occurred in 1948. In 1948 and ever since then, Western politicians have acted without integrity, conscience or honour; and history, quite rightly, will pass harsh judgement on their acts and policies. However, our suffering is but a small inconvenience compared with the enormous suffering of the Palestinians. A considerable number of Palestinians have lived in what could be accurately called a giant concentration camp for over sixty years. They suffer and the vast majority of Western politicians care not one whit.
For those that would prefer to spend their time scoring fatuous points (re my user name), it means you have lost or do not wish to discuss the real issues some of which I have described above. But yes, I am non-violent and have been all my life (the modern Western world has much to learn from the examples of Gandhi, M L King and Sir Thomas More). You confuse seeking justice with violence and all it does is indicate a lack of insight and a prejudiced mindset. To a considerable number of people a major corruption and injustice is occurring and perhaps the EU is slowly waking up to that. I have great respect for the truth and also how as we human beings evolve, it is integrated into international law and becomes part of it. That, above all other things determines my involvement in different issues.
In response to Marcus (325) I can provide further information indicating rise (China although very early days) and decline (USA) if you want or need it but I haven't any doubt that from an historical perspective, the latter is now in rapid decline. As civilizations rise and decline it should not be regarded as crucially important unless one believes the contrary!
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This happening daily and yes, it is about time the EU (hopefully with UK involvement) took steps to see that international law is applied:
In Occupied Palestine - Zionism in practice
Israel’s Daily Toll on Palestinian Life, Limb, Liberty and Property - 24 hours to 8am 05 July 2010 - Main source of statistics: Palestinian Monitoring Group (PMG).
Rafah: Palestinian fishing boats under Israeli fire
Driver shot at, beaten and hospitalised by Occupation troops
Occupation settlers set fire to vehicle
Night peace disruption and/or home invasions in refugee camp and 8 towns and villages
2 attacks – 27 raids including home invasions – 1 beaten – 2 injured
4 taken prisoner – 15 detained – 92 restrictions of movement
Home invasions & occupations: 01:30, the town of Biddu - 03:20, the Qalandya refugee camp - 05:30, the town of Ebwin.
Peace disruption raids: 01:00, the town of Al Eizariya - 10:30, the city of Ramallah - 10:30, the city of El Bireh - 23:35, the village of An Nabi Salih - 09:30, the town of Zeita - 09:30, the town of Attil - 00:05, the town of Anabta - 12:55, the village of Jit - 12:00, the village of Beit Dajan - 13:10, the village of Qusin - 13:35, the village of An Nassariya - 14:15, Ithe town of Beit Iba - 15:00, the town of Asira Ash Shamaliya - 22:45, the village of Az Zubeidat - 12:40, the city of Beit Jala - 20:20, the city of Beit Jala - 17:10, the town of Za’tara - 17:10, the village of Ash Shawawra - 10:20, Hebron - 02:45, Hebron - 18:40, the town of Yatta - 20:15, the village of Ar-Rihiya - 02:30, the village of Beit Imrin - 19:00, the town of Sa’ir.
Palestinian attacks: none
Israeli attack – economic sabotage: Rafah – morning, Israeli gunboats opened machinegun-fire and launched missiles at Palestinian fishing boats at sea off the city.
Israeli attack – beating – hospitalisation: Nablus – 21:30, Munir Sidqi Othman was admitted to hospital with severe injuries after being beaten up by Israeli troops. The Israelis had been shooting at and pursuing his vehicle until he halted it with his son inside near the road junction leading to the village of Yatma. The soldiers took prisoner the injured man's son.
Raid – hospital disruption: Hebron – 18:40, Israeli troops raided the town of Yatta, set up a flying checkpoint at the entrance to the hospital and stopped people from entering or exiting. Occupation troops also searched three shops,
Non-violent resistance – injury – tear gas victims: Bethlehem – 11:30, a journalist was injured and a number of demonstrators were overcome by tear gas during a violent assault by Israeli Occupation troops on an international anti-annexation Wall protest in the area of Al Kreimazan, north-west of Beit Jala.
Occupation settler violence – arson - vandalism: Qalqilya – 01:40, a gang of Israelis gathered at the road junction leading to the village of Immatin and set fire to a vehicle.
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Mr Hewitt it is time for a New Crisis to befall the European Union ; the Default of Greece , Germany returns to the Deutchmark , Political scandal brings down the French government , Britain holds a referendum on whether to leave or stay in the EU . maybe other constributors can add to or improve on the list .
Reading peoples criticisms of other people's comments of other people's acid comments is very boring .
Perhaps QuietOakTree could give us a list of all the British families who made their fortune in the slave trade .
What about all those viscious Red Indians who slaughtered the European settlers who encroached on their tribal land and the settlers who shot up the Red Indians .
Medical technology isn't necessarilly better in the US ; but US doctors will try a bit harder to keep you alive when you are terminally ill and prolong your suffering before death , as they are being well paid to do so .
These blogs are about Europe , the rise and fall of the European Union , so please let us have another crisis or topic of European interest to get our teeth into and write about .
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#320 Gheryando
From earlier posts I have guessed that you live in northern Italy on the border with Austria . I have met people from near Bolzano on a camping holiday in the Maremma , they all spoke Italian and German fluently .
Where the border has moved back and forth over time , one might expect people to speak both languages .
I once met a Dutch couple at my village shop in Italy , who didn't speak or understand either English or German . The young Italian woman shop assistant is fluent in both English and German .
I now live in Thailand , where if there is a second language , it is English . Over the time I have met people of a variety of nat