The euro: Taking on the 'wolf pack'
In a series of late-night moves, European finance ministers, the European Central Bank, and the IMF threw everything at defending the euro.
This was unveiling the nuclear option and more. A truly staggering $1 trillion has been deployed in an effort to stabilise world markets. In a short space of time this was no longer about the debts of Greece or Spain; it was a race to save global economic recovery.
Banks once more could have faced liquidity problems. President Obama was working the phones with Europe's leaders. In the desperate race to have a plan in place before the Asian markets awoke, doubts were swept aside. The rule book was forgotten in a matter of hours. The European Central Bank decided to buy eurozone government bonds; a policy it had only recently fiercely resisted.
Some believe that the massive 500bn euro package to guarantee loans to eurozone countries should have required a new treaty, yet it was almost nodded through. The Commission has based the arrangement on a narrow interpretation of the Lisbon Treaty, which refers to "exceptional circumstances".
The European Commission, which is after all a civil service, could now find itself borrowing on the markets to lend to any state in difficulty. "This truly is overwhelming force," said Marco Annunziata, from Unicredit. This firepower is all aimed at steadying the markets, or as the Swedish finance minister put it, stopping the "wolf-pack behaviour" of the speculators.
EU Monetary Affairs Commissioner Ollie Rehn said "it proves we shall defend the euro whatever it takes". In the short-term the bond markets should settle and the cost of borrowing should fall for countries like Portugal and Spain. Now it may be that much of this rescue package will never be called on, but even though the immediate blaze may have been put out there will be long-term consequences.
If countries get into difficulty and cannot re-pay their loans other eurozone countries will have to foot the bill. It remains unclear how the money will be deployed and on what terms. Some of those countries are already struggling with crippling deficits and will have difficulty finding the money. In the end Germany will have to bank-roll this. On paper it is committed to paying 123bn euros.
The German voters in North Rhine Westphalia clearly did not appreciate bailing-out Greece. Germany could potentially end up as the Paymaster General for much of the Euro Group. If that happens one of the likely consequences of this crisis will be that the most important country in the European Union will become progressively more Eurosceptic.
With these vast funds available there will be a temptation for countries to draw back from the austerity programmes. Spain, for one, has shown itself reluctant to pursue further cuts. Even the Greek government besieged by rioters might decide it can back off. After all, what sanctions would be employed against it? The message that emanates from all this is that rather than a country being forced out of the euro, money will always be found if a country gets into difficulty.
The fundamental problem for Europe is a lack of growth, inflexible labour markets and expensive public sectors. The challenge for politicians will be explaining that the old social model can no longer be sustained. Benefits will have to be frozen. Entitlements withdrawn.
It is an open question whether Europe's leaders will embrace what will be a revolution, or will they fudge the challenge and keep dipping into this well of money? On Monday, the President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, said leaders had to show courage. Europeans would have to work harder and for longer. It is a message that politicians have so far shied away from.
Peter Morici, a professor at the University of Maryland, almost immediately fired a warning shot. "By establishing a 750bn euro-fund," he said, "Germany and other strong European states are chasing a dream - a single Euro currency and broader European unity - that may have no place in reality."
Certainly the flaws that brought Europe to this point have not been addressed. They have monetary union without fiscal union. Already there are EU Commissioners calling for fiscal powers to be pooled. President Van Rompuy said: "We can't have a monetary union at the end without some form of economic and political union, and that is our big task for the coming weeks and the coming months."
The rules governing the euro were flouted. They will have to be tightened in the future. But will serial offenders be excluded from the euro, or will they always be accommodated? Beyond that is the problem of sharply different countries sharing the same monetary union. Anyone who has recently spent time in both Greece and Germany knows they are light years apart economically.
The problem for the weaker countries is that being inside the euro they do not have the means to become competitive through devaluation. These fundamental questions have not been addressed. Here, too, the pressure will grow for further integration. The President of the Commission, Jose Manuel Barrosso, said: "We need a stronger union in economic policy, a stronger compliance by member states."
So the battle lines are being drawn up. There will be another push for further integration. Some governments and some voters may resist.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~36~RS~)
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President Van Rompuy said: "We can't have a monetary union at the end without some form of economic and political union, and that is our big task for the coming weeks and the coming months."
People don't want that. Merkel, Rumpoy, Sarkozy, Barroso start listening!
START LISTENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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'The President of the Commission, Jose Manuel Barrosso, said: "We need a stronger union in economic policy, a stronger compliance by member states."'
EUpris: The "EU" is not a solution to any problem.
The "EU" is a problem.
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Very well note, but you could have drown the F -word from the closet, the F word being Federalism. This is a step towards European Union becoming more federal than it is, and it is quite a lot. While I'm for the Europe to advance in federalism and hoping the European Union will in some day become a federal state like the USA.
However I have to admit that I feel somewhat sorrow that this our march towards federalism takes random steps towards it out of necessity than by careful planning and design. Then again, Europe is notorious on going back to the drawing board, hopefully when the next time comes up, we will get a good well planned federal model out of this whole mess.
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I wish every Nation would stop these bailouts they are not for the public just for the Bankers.That's why Obama paid US money for IMF so Bankers can collect tax payers money and yes I know that some of these Banks are US banks.Less tax revenue more debt.Asking younger generations who have less to pay out more.It has to stop some where.U.S. and Europe has to stop paying out tax payers money for Corporate Greed.Every U.S. social program has a Corporation on the end taking dollars even food stamps money is funneled to Grocery store chains.We all have to stop giving our money away to 3rd world slave nations which is really funneled to Corporations and importing foreign workers and stop giving tax dollars to Corporations.We can still have social programs with out them.Obama is sadly no different than Bush, health care another Corporate handout.Afghanistan,Iraq,S.Korea,Taiwan,etc...money to Israel,Egypt,Haiti,etc..We have no more to give out.We have no more revenue coming in.Both our governments are delaying the inevitable it will happen,we will have to stop Corporate take over of our Domestic and Foreign Policies.And taking our tax dollars and using them against us all.IMF is a scam to have Corporations bilk tax payers for projects in 3rd world nations which then either default or are given forgiveness.
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To continue to give money to banks is the most foolish thing that can be done. This is continued extortion by the bankers. Close the banks, create national banks and get on with restructing the gobal financial markets. Citizens will not tolerate this constant deception by both the governments and the banks. The systems fail, both politically and monetariarly, no need to keep maintaining that system. Resturcture the global economy and the financial markets or this will be a constant state of extortion by the bankers. They have failed, the political system has failed and it is time for a change. Citizens are not going to assume this kind of taxation to maintain the corrupt political and banking system. This is just another indication of how detached they systems are from the people who actually have to pay for them.
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Pity! Europeans are now doing what the Greeks were asking four months ago. They stood watching and pitying as Greece was sqeezed dry, while they profited big time on the side and now that they have come to grips with the obvious (that when a family member is sick you are bound to get sick yourself) they run for rescue (...of the Euro NOT fellow member states -wait until you see the fine print). Nice going fellas...
A greek rooted word might be appropriate here: Hypocrites!!
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What a strange obsession with presenting Spain as a debt-ridden economy when its debt is clearly below that of many other Western European countries. Spain faces many real problems, like its sluggish growth and massive unemployment, but up to this date it remains significantly less indebted than the UK or Italy.
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Uh-oh,
this decision -though it may look good to soothe markets at a first glance- is a catastrophy for Europe and the Euro.
It'll take away all pressure from everyone to get their homework done. Not good.
It's definetely the last nail in the coffin for Mrs Merkel and her coalition, the German people won't forgive this. We were able to have a short glimpse of what the bail-out did to the centre-right government yesterday evening, but this... will probably kick them out for years to come.
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Germany is the most populous country in the EU and the one with the largest economy but I haven't grasped why it is often presented as being uniquely (and unfairly) called upon to solve Europe's financial problems. As far as I can see (and in financial matters it's not very far), the per capita demands on France and others are much the same.
(While I'm about it, I'm a little puzzled about why economic power is being treated as almost the only factor in a country's influence and importance).
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When the air is let out of this big red balloon, there will be alot of red on the streets. Devaluation will be the only way to solve these problems.
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Not a word about UK debt, or USA debt, which could be far bigger problems. Quite a feat. Clearly Mr. Hewitt wants to see the euro brought down ? He seems to be writing as if "Europe" is located on the back side of the moon or so, and as if the UK and the USA are just doing fine. Wishful thinking ? And still once more, there is "Britain and Europe", as if the UK is not part of the EU.
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@1 and 2,
LOL. The answer is always going to be more EUrope! Good times: more europe; Bad times: more europe. I love it! The EU federalism parade has not slowed and this train is sailing full steam ahead! All aboard?
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@7. At 8:19pm on 10 May 2010, MarEndins, Well said!
Now to the rest of the blog:
Someone else said Spain & Portugal have too much debt! Compared to what? most other developed countries?
Also
...what about if the Greek government even thought besieged by rioters does not decide to back off?
...What about if the fundamental problem for Europe is NOT a lack of growth, inflexible labour markets and expensive public sectors. What if it is the wrong type of growth i.e. growth through debt (personal & public) What about if the idea the markets keep preaching us that we need growth is a false god? What about if the excesive debts we have are because our government paid huge amounts of money to rescue the inefficient financial markets? What about if we have just low sustainable growth? What about if that is a far better approach to growth?
Finally perhaps if they start as a team again it will restore my faith in the EU and the Euro. Hopefully it will bring ever closer union a step closer:)
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The petty little people who we put in change of running our Nation states seem to think that we have put them there for their benefit - they are wrong - they are our servants and are there to do what is best for us.
The anti-federalist nonsense is whipped up by these pathetic little people for their own benefit, not ours. We need to remember this.
We need to let them know that subsidiarity is the proper way to run things - all things. I remind us that this is about taking the decision at the lowest possible level appropriate for taking the decision. The colour of my front gate - very local. The maximum weight and wheel loading of lorries - Europe wide. Get this right and we are all content. (Or at least those that can think in a non-bigoted, sensible and logical manner are content.)
A single currency for trading is a very good idea as it makes everyone more efficient and pays less money to bankers - however we need to share some level of decision making to gain this efficiency. There was only the 3 percent of GDP test and various lower limits on VAT and of course the Farm Subsidy problem but through bitter experience we have now found that as almost every state has a different interpretation of GBP and indeed 3 percent something more is needed. Let us hope those that we have delegated the task will get these controls right. We are yet to see the details.
PS. Competitive devaluation is only a way of making bankers richer and the poor people poorer still. Bankers just love it! And of course we love bankers don't we! And haven't we seen that they are really so good at running our state finance sectors that they never need bailing out, or any form of extraordinary support! Get real and don't let the bankers rob you any more!
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Good management is about high quality decision making through ultimate ownership. Responsibility and authority have to be invested in one and the same decision maker, who understands they will answer for the consequences.
Nothing else works properly.
Consider the captain of 18th. centuary ship alone in the Atlantic with a crew of 600; no communication, no buck-passing, no muddying of consequence-ownership; the highest authority under God. His decision makes or breaks; this is the "alpha-mindset".
What just happened was that the Club Med "captains" were told, they are not responsible for their fate any more, and yet they still have spending authority. If they monkey it up they will get bailed out.
Is it not now the case that Greek Chancellors have the authority to spend German money at will?
How will that effect their decision making now?
Will the Athenien rioters be happy with a government that persists in tightening the financial straps when such an obvious easy way out has just been presented?
If a new Greek hospital is built, will the German taxpayer pay for it afterwards? Is there any mechanism for asking their permission first?
Who has the "alpha-mindset" now? Someone hopefully?
Does all this mean that we will see a bloom in public spending, and an easy lifestyle and abondant social safetynet in the South (egg-ed on by an eager Southern electorate) paid for by a prudent, frugal and increasingly poor Northern tax-payer? Where is that going to end, do we think?
Beethoven's 9th is a glorious piece of music, but those who thought Schiller's Ode to Joy a sufficient basis for a complex headless monetary federation may soon be very disillusioned.
Headless?
Consider this: California has a 7% debt to GDP ratio too. It may effect the dollar (it is unlcear whether it does) but the notion that the Fed will intervene is just implicit. It is just not front page news. That's what I mean by headless...
Time to roll up the European single currency experiment?
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@11. At 9:31pm on 10 May 2010, smroet
and to top it all up the non ending repeatision that the only way for the weak Euro economies to get up to spead is through currency devaluation! What they need is smooth change not "cold turkey" therapy. That was tried in the 90's in the former eastern Europe, what a great success that was!
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Jukka - I agree with your comment. Looks like more integration is coming. Integration.Yay!
Qst on the side: How come EUprisoner you ALWAYS get the first comment? Do you have like a mobile live alert on your phone when Gavin posts a new post?
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ChrisArta #16 - you know your economics
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I can understand that many people are against a non-democratic EU. I agree with that. However it is pointless fighting against the current. You destroy your boat and may never rich a shore. Instead, maybe, if all of us will start working towards dragging this EU to a democratic and modern institution ("superstate", "federal state" etc.
The current Euro crisis has its roots not too far ago in the global economic crisis and of course that "dear" thing called nationalism. Just remember 2008 or 2007. Countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain in the Euro zone and countries like Bulgaria, Romania outside the Euro zone were booming. Of course that was because of massive investments from countries like Germany, France, UK etc. The global financial crisis comes and the same countries (Germany, France, UK etc) request their banks and investors to move all resources back home to save their economy and their people jobs (just remember the famous speeches of the famous French president about the saving of French people jobs whatever it takes).
Of course that helped the economies of Germany, France, UK etc., but...what about the others aforementioned?
Well the others (Greece, Portugal, Spain, Bulgaria, Romania) they enjoyed so much growth in 2007, 2008 that they expanded their spending (public sector, social benefits) based on fantastic economic predictions which were about to prove wrong as long as Germany, France, UK money were not there.
Easy to see that provoked the Greek crisis and the struggle in so many other countries.
Now, it is very difficult to put them back on the track.
So, as far as I am concerned all this Euro and EU problem is not because of Greeks or other unfortunate people it is because of poor management of EU and all governments money beginning with 2000 till present. So, in a EU where nationalistic interest is before common interest poor countries are doomed to remain poor and richer to remain richer. But who can blame the rich ones for trying their best to keep it like that?
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So this is the end game gambit Europe has chosen to play, death by fire after all, rather than death by ice.
"In a short space of time this was no longer about the debts of Greece or Spain; it was a race to save global economic recovery."
What a bunch of hooey. The world would go on with Greece in default even if the Euro were to collapse and all of Europe went broke. The real economies that matter lie in Asia, North America, and South America, Europe is irrelevant. Nothing has changed except that the mountain of debt has been spread wider and thinner. Now Germany is submerged. So goes the PIIGS, so goes the Euro, so goes the EU and so goes Europe.
500 billion or one trillion it could hardly matter less. That ain't spit compared to the size and power of the markets. The EU is armed with a pea shoter for a weapon.
The false sense of security will assure that when any attempt to reduce the entitlements Europeans consider their birthright is proposed or looks to be enacted, there will be riots in the streets, the rioters knowing full well their government will retreat to the comfort of this new found sack of money they can tap.
The claim is made that the Euroland economies have nothing in common. That is not true. All of them spend more than they earn. They are all in debt and their debt is constantly increasing faster than their GDP. It's only a matter of degree and timing that is different among them. There is no real hope or expectation that will change, the exact opposite is true, the situation only looks to grow worse.
So the most productive and wealthiest of the lot will be sapped to sustain the least productive and the most indebted. Good, just the kind of competition I like best for my country, one that thinks with its heart, not its brain. The edge of the cliff draws nearer.
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Hell hath no fury like Helldom in Britain;
If there was the slightest shadow of doubt in my mind, you dispelled it. By coming out as a staunch supporter of the Euro, you have convinced me it was the dumbest idea on the planet. And each and every day it goes to greater and greater lengths to prove it. This one was a beauty. This is how Germany will get taken down. When it is, the seeds of the next world war in Europe will have been sown.
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If the Greek political class can't explain to those drawing benefits, pensions, etc. -- the rioters -- from the Greek government that Government expenditures, including interest on existing debts, MUST be brought back to the level of taxes, then the bail-out of Greece will fail. The multibillion Euro bail-out can postpone the failure, but won't solve it. Similarly, approaching tenth year of War, neither Bush II nor Obama has yet paid attention to similar problems in the US, with government expenditures far outracing government income.
Germany may be able to bail out Greece. Election results suggest that the German taxpayer is not sympathetic to this.
Following along, the US on a similar path, is greatly indebted to China and Japan. Since we don't participate in the Euro, then the US dollar will have to devalue substantially during the next few years.
Giving money authority and power to politicians is like furnishing whiskey and carkeys to teen-aged boys.
TeaPot562
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I am from the USA and glad of it.
However i mentioned here last night the need to have German voters stop this mess.
What do you think the German voters would have done (how many votes would Mrs Merkel have recievd) if they knew the cost of this bail out would be 5 times the amount they understood it to be when they voted.
I think I remember some where the words (at a minimum) applied to this business.
Can we finally call this a Bail Out or is it still officaly a loan?
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All countries should default on their debt and start again. National borrowing should be an internal affair, If richer nations wish to invest in poorer nations it should be done in the knowledge that repayment is not certain. Its ridiculous that the world economy is being stalled by debt. Who owns all this debt anyway, they obviously have more money than sense.
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3. At 7:46pm on 10 May 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:
" ... I'm for the Europe to advance in federalism and hoping the European Union will in some day become a federal state like the USA. "
EUpris: Well, thank you for telling us what you want, Jukka. I'm against the monarchy but as far as I am aware about 70% of Brits want the monarchy. So, as I see it, I am out of luck. But many "EU"-lovers do not take that approach. The only thing that counts is what they want. They are entitled to try to persuade us to want the same but when they fail they force it on us anyway. By so doing, they show that they and their "EU" are the enemies of the people of Europe. So we now have a pan-"EU" state or whatever which is the enemy of the people it is meant to serve. That means that there must be trouble. If I had any money, I would be trying to get it out of the "EU". Usually about 65% of the UK population agree with me. I am almost Mr. Average. So the Lisbon Treaty rubbish must in some part be responsible for the current crisis.
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" ...the President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, said leaders had to show courage. Europeans would have to work harder and for longer."
EUpris: So the "EU" has had no positive effect at all.
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" ... There will be another push for further integration. Some governments and some voters may resist."
Presumably a good number of the hundreds of millions who did not want the Lisbon Treaty will resist.
The imposition of the Lisbon Treaty has shown that our "democracies" are not working. So, presumably, that increases the chances of people taking violent action. I definitely do not want that.
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11. At 9:31pm on 10 May 2010, smroet wrote:
" ... And still once more, there is "Britain and Europe", as if the UK is not part of the EU."
EUpris:
The UK is not LEGITIMATELY a part of the "EU".
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13. At 10:29pm on 10 May 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
@7. At 8:19pm on 10 May 2010, MarEndins, Well said!
" ... Hopefully it will bring ever closer union a step closer"
If you want that, then you have to persuade a majority of Brits and a majority of others in the "EU" to want it. Tying us down and ramming it down our throats will result in it being spat back in the faces of the anti-democrats.
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14. At 10:32pm on 10 May 2010, John_from_Hendon wrote:
" ... I remind us that this is about taking the decision at the lowest possible level appropriate for taking the decision. The colour of my front gate - very local. The maximum weight and wheel loading of lorries - Europe wide."
We do have Europe-wide cooperation relating to trucks which has nothing to do with the "EU". We have the ADR system for the transportation of hazardous goods across Europe. I have a truck licence and the ADR certificate. It seems to work very well and I am all for it.
Cooperation - YES!
"EU" - NO!
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Ironic isn't it ? The unelected commission decides on a plan to stop speculators by using taxpayers money to....speculate on the Euro ! The fact that the EU has thrown away it's own rulebook as well as any moral or legal credibility should come as no surprise ! Remember the Lisbon treaty scam ?
Welcome to post-democratic Europe.
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National governments of the member states persisted over the years in believing, and telling their citizens, that economic union and monetary union could be obtained without political union. This was always untrue and by persisting in this error, governments have run up a potential bill of nearly a trillion US dollars - to be possibly followed by more. There is no free lunch and there is no economic union, including a real single market which would be the guarantee of competitiveness throughout Europe,without political union. Perhaps now that they have made such complete fools of themselves over the past few weeks in reacting to the Greek debt issue, the member state governments will have the lucidity to face reality - and tell their peoples what Europe really needs to do to secure prosperity for its people and a place in the evolving world of the 21st century and beyond.
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14. At 10:32pm on 10 May 2010, John_from_Hendon wrote:
" ...
A single currency for trading is a very good idea as it makes everyone more efficient and pays less money to bankers"
WEUpris: A German bloke living near the Dutch border who had lots of dealings with the Dutch told me that since the introduction of the Euro, the banks had increased their fees for transferring money to Holland. When he complained his bank told him they were just making up for the loss of earnings from other currency transfers. So the Euro did not make as much difference as some think.
I used to live in Germany just yards from the Dutch border. I kept a drawer full of Dutch money. The lack of the Euro was not a big problem. I know a business which just had a Dutch and a German bank account. The advantages of the Euro are overstated by "EU"-lovers and the disadvantages ignored or played down.
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14. At 10:32pm on 10 May 2010, John_from_Hendon wrote:
" ...
The anti-federalist nonsense is whipped up by these pathetic little people for their own benefit, not ours. We need to remember this. "
WEUpris: Guess what! I disagree! I am an insignificant little man. What is significant is that hundreds of millions do not share your vision. You have to persuade us. That, you have failed to do. So people like you forced it on us anyway thus taking the camouflage off their anti-democratic nature and giving us a hint of what the "EU" could turn into.
It is bad enough already. We do not need "more Europe."
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15. At 10:34pm on 10 May 2010, moxtherog wrote:
" ...
Consider the captain of 18th. centuary ship alone in the Atlantic with a crew of 600 ..."
EUpris: "Alone with 600???????????" I suppose that is what the "EU" "elite" think they are. "Alone" with hundreds of millions of serfs.
How they suffer! How they eat themselves sick - for us! I find their self-sacrifice humbling and moving!
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17. At 11:31pm on 10 May 2010, Gheryando wrote:
" ...
Qst on the side: How come EUprisoner you ALWAYS get the first comment? Do you have like a mobile live alert on your phone when Gavin posts a new post?"
I do not always get the first comment. I think I have similar habits to Gavin. I was thinking of going for my siesta but had the feeling that Gavin might post and hung around.
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Capitalism saved? Oh the knashing of teeth can be heard from here. What is the Eurozone if not capitalism personified. Why so glum,,you guys got your pensions from money and corporations, didn't you?
That is why you are here, all that time off, cuz you HAVE money..the worst anti capitalists are moneyed people..
how gloriously ironic.
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Good article!
The euro was a huge [even reckless] gamble in the first place and without the equivalent of a Federal Reserve or Bank of England to control it is doomed to eventual failure.
"Let's all be Europeans" but in the end let's still be Germans or French or Greeks first! It's gonna take quite a few generations.
If I was a Greek politician being offered all the money I could spend, I'd probably splash it around while I could as well.
But the bigger picture is China's push for world financial/political domination and US [and others] profligacy:
American or UK families flooding the malls every weekend - let's consume, we're american!, "my car [or some other toy] is 2 years old, I must get a new one"
Meanwhile, let's shift 75% of our factories overseas, it's far cheaper to produce in China etc.
That was OK for a while.... since it's been dragging China out of state socialism [but into state fascism?].
But suddenly we now owe China and its neighbors [plus the Saudis etc] the whole of our annual GDP and some, and if we get uppity, they will crack their financial whip and the US better start dancing real good!
This hasn't even started yet, just wait...
So do you think the Greeks , the Spanish etc have been following the US example? Believe it, and why shouldn't they?
One Remedy: Reduce our card debt, maybe even save a bit, encourage US-based production and especially innovation, spend 20-30% less on defence [why is the US still subsidising the defense of the western world? does it make you feel like big man?] and redirect it to education/healthcare/entrepreneurism/removing our dependence on oil.
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One of my friends told me once:
"Do you wanna be famous, strong and appreciated? Do you want people to recognize you as their true and only leader?"
I said:
"Of course"
He replied:
"Then create a problem and solve it for them, then create another one and then another one .... and so on"
Now:
We have a problem.
Who is our savior?
As for myself I may ask you this:
Who is lending money to the governments? I always hear "financial markets". Who are these "financial markets"? What is their responsibility? I know governments respond to their people. What about "financial markets"? Who they respond to? I know that if I cheat someone or if I manipulate someone, I, as a simple citizen, have to respond in front of law. What about those that have the power to cheat on and manipulate governments?
Who creates the problem?
"financial markets"
Who solves the problem?
"financial markets"
And in the meantime:
We fight about the hard working, tax paying North and West Europeans and about the lazy, party lovers South and East Europeans.
Do you really thing that that is our problem?
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bart;
"Can we finally call this a Bail Out or is it still officaly a loan?"
Why not call it for what it really is, a gift...or a theft because once it is taken, it will never be returned. It's the socialist thread that starts with Robin Hood and travels through Karl Marx to Brussels. Rob from the rich and give to the poor until the rich are also poor and have neither the incentive nor the means to become rich again.
CC;
"All countries should default on their debt and start again."
Why would anyone lend them money again knowing that they defaulted once and might again. I know I wouldn't with my money. Would you lend them yours if you saw first hand you might not get it back?
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I guess the China model is inspiring. The non democratic EU is their first victim..but Euro wealth may lead to democracy ..remember S Korea and Taiwan..education of 800 million poor people first to deal with..heck just education, in China..I mean.
At least the EU hasn't yet led to mass death.
Another reason democracy looks like chaos to China..think about all the prosecutions dealing with the Cultural revolution, other atrocities..is there anyone alive--perpetrators, maybe time will heal that wound? Maybe that is what chaos China fears.
But, anything to keep Europeans from warring.
They say that China is lending The USA money to do its DIRTY work for THEM,
ie, policing...but THERE ARE THE MASS DEATHS, maybe...sad huh?
Terrorism does work--causing death to innocents.
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I go back to work tomorrow yahoooo, so less non controversial posts for you nice people..have fun:)
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24. Chris Campbell
"All countries should default on their debt and start again."
Does that apply to the US? I fear that Japan and China would be very unhappy.
The problem is always the morning after. Unfortunately for countries there is no morning after pill. I don't believe Argentina has made significant progress since their default.
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"I guess the China model is inspiring. The non democratic EU is their first victim"
Modern China is an American invention. It was cooked up by Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon after their visit there in 1973. It wasn't intended to kill of Europe but it has worked out that way. The banking crisis that started in the US merely accelerated a process that had been underway for a long time anyway, it would eventually have come to this. IKEA for example doesn't stand a chance against Wallmart. America had better be careful that China doesn't gobble it up too. I don't think that will happen but American recklessness with money isn't helping it any. President Obama will have created more debt in his first (and possibly last) four years in office than previous American governments created in 200 years. That's quite a record.
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The situation of the Euro and EU is becoming laughable ! Where has the EU and ECB got all this money from , to bail out member states that are bankrupt ? The ECB either would have to sell all the gold reserves , or has made arrangement to borrow the money . Could we see in the near future the ECB going the way of Lehmans ?
I see the creation of the Euro as similar to saying that all the children can go to university , whether clever or nearly illiterate . After three years at University they each receive a bachelors Degree , never mind whether they have studied or passed any exams . When they graduate some will get jobs and some won't .
The mentality , scope and expectations of countries are quite different ; to have said that they can all be the same if they join the Euro , was totally dishonest , or is the EU run by people who are mentally deficient ; by " The magic of Believing " all your dreams will come true .
The original idea of creating a European Union was to ensure peace in Europe . The way things are going , could lead to WWIII .
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@23. At 01:13am on 11 May 2010, bart
If a loan to buy a house, a business, a car is a bail out from the bank to the borrow then for sure the loan the other EU countries and the IMF provided to Greece is a bail out, however if buying a house, business, car with money borrowed from a bank, that we must pay interest on is call a loan, then the Greek thing is also a loan!
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@24. At 01:16am on 11 May 2010, Chris Campbell,
Hoorey! Nice to see a sensible post in this blog!
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JukkaRohila
You know very well what the "F" word is . It is NOT federalism .
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@32. At 02:29am on 11 May 2010, Manofiona
Very valid point, that is what government need to explain to their countries i.e. the word "union"!
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@40. At 03:35am on 11 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII,
They would lend money again, because: what else can they do with it? Use it as wall paper? If you have money and all government have said from today we are all debt free, investors would lend them again, what else could they do with their money?
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@43. At 04:31am on 11 May 2010, MaudDib,
The US already did it once in 1971, the world still moved on nothing bad happened and other countries and investors lend to the US after that, so no morning after problem! It is all down to how you deliver the message, fire all the economists (it is not as if they get anything right any how) and hire PR people to deliver the message (politicians are kind of PR)
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Gavin Hewitt wrote:
The fundamental problem for Europe is a lack of growth, inflexible labour markets and expensive public sectors. The challenge for politicians will be explaining that the old social model can no longer be sustained. Benefits will have to be frozen. Entitlements withdrawn.
Well, Gavin, you've said it all. Chicken have finally come home to roost, the Day of Reckoming is nigh and the Iceman's cometh.
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Question:
How long do you think Merkel's CDU/SU/FDP coaliton government will last?
I'm willing to take bets. [more landt's elections are coming]
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Re # 52 P.S.
The above metioned Day of Reckoning could have been avoided if EUSSR aparatchiks hadn't used dead reckoning while setting the course for a European union and a common European currency.
[dead reckoning magnifies previous postitioning errors and doesn't take into consideration winds and currents]
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Gavin,
Does this mean that the staff of the European Commission have to give up their month long holiday in August?
I see no evidence of any austerity measures amongst the new, cleaming, glass-fronted buildings of the European Commission in Brussels.
Perhaps they should lead by example.
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It's neither the EUSSR or the EUSA . It's a club of Member States with common policy in some but not all areas. If we were the EUSSR or EUSA, do you really think that major Member States like the UK would be able to opt out of the Euro and various other policies? (Only time will tell whether the UK has make the right decision in this respect) . I also agree with John from Hendon (14) concerning subsidiarity. As soon as the European Commission tells me what colour to paint my garden gate, I'll be siding with EUPris.
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31. At 02:24am on 11 May 2010, Johannes wrote:
Ironic isn't it ? The unelected commission decides on a plan to stop speculators by using taxpayers money to....speculate on the Euro ! The fact that the EU has thrown away it's own rulebook as well as any moral or legal credibility should come as no surprise ! Remember the Lisbon treaty scam ?
Welcome to post-democratic Europe.
--------
In fact, the democraticly elected leaders of the EU member states, at least of the eurozone countries, conferenced and found a solution to a problem that was forced on them by the total undemocratic powers of some speculators. Wether it will work or not, we will see.
Of course, the general solution for many of the monetary problems of the EU would be deeper coordination of the fiscal and social laws of the member states. The question is, why do many people and many rulers in some countries do not like such a solution?
In my opinion, the reason is not a heroic fight against an undemocratic procedure or the fear about a loss of sovereignty, it's about the fear of the wealthy establishment to lose some of their plutocratic powers, which are the real undemocratic elements in this game.
For them, it is good when states compete for their investments with a race for the lowest taxes. Not for us ordinary people.
For them, it is good, when they cood play games with competing currencies. Not for us.
For them, it is good, when they have the financial power to blackmail bureaucrats, political parties, whole governments. Not for us.
And they have the financial power to influence public opinion via mass media and agenda setting. You tend to be a little nationalistic? They make an eurosceptic out of you. You tend to earn a little more than average, you own a little house? They make you believe, that you are part of the establishment, sitting in the same boat with the fantazillionaires.
Back to topic, in my opinion the future will bring a total EU collapse, or, more realistic, the infamous Europe of the two speeds. That the eurozone countries will go the ever deeper way is a necessarity, answering the old question: Should we first harmonize fiscal and social ruling, then start a common currency, or will a common currency be the engine, that forces the harmonization.
And in my opinion, in the case the Euro survives, which I believe, some very earnest questions will be asked to the british government. I feel the times of in and out opts, of diplomatic games for the benefit of single nations will be over soon. It will be in or out. As I see it, the core mainland european countries and economies are forced through their common currency in a way, that could not longer accept a big british influence, as long as the UK does not join the way in any meaning.
And that it is not a question, wether some small nearly bancrupt states in the east or south could harm the strong German, French, Austrian, Benelux, Skandinavian countries essentially. In the end, there are 16 Eurozone countries right now, and, as often forgotten in the UK, all the 10 new countries from the last expansion round had to sign in, that they join the Euro once they fullfil the economical and political framework.
So, what will be left in Europe for an alliance with the british? Only some countries, who are not wanted by the eurozone, or cannot reach the economical goals and very few that are strong, but don't want to join for other reasons. But believe it, even the Switzerlands or Norways will have stronger ties with the then core EU, if GB decides not to join completely. Have fun with them.
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...also do I live in a parallel universe or is the suggestion that there is a 750bn euro-fund available to Eurozone members misleading? In my universe the 750bn euro-fund is only available to Eurozone countries that in order to use it must comply with the rules the IMF set up for Greece, now those rules don't make that 750bn euro-fund look like a gift! For countries to access it they have to reduce people's wages, reduce health care and education, turn workers rights back to the middle ages etc. It looks to me as if its there so that bankers can sleep easy at night that they will not loose money, it is not there to help countries develop.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@ 57
Agree completely. The UK will have to make up its mind. In or out.
Darling will not have made a lot of friends for the UK - he clearly missed an opportunity to shut up.
If the UK goes out, it will be very sad for such a former great nation to put itself so much out of the mainstream.
Plus the risk of an internal break-up of the UK - the Scots may not want to leave the EU.
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#14.
How exactly do you think that devaluation benefits the banks?
Devaluation benefits borrowers, because it reduces the real cost of their liabilities. Devaluation penalises lenders, since it reduces the real ralue of their assets. This is why it is an attractive option to socialist governments: they can promise the earth to people and borrow with impunity, then later inflate their way out of having to make good on their obligations.
Banks are primarily lenders. They stand to lose a lot of money (in real terms) from a devaluation. Put differently, money is a means of storing wealth for a later date. A devaluation reduces the value assigned to stored wealth compared with wealth that is generated right now. Since banks primarily deal with stored wealth, they would take a big hit. Unfortunately, so would savers, pensioners and anybody else who is dependent on the value of their stored wealth.
Of course the big beneficiaries of a devaluation would be the people who lied in order to get a mortgage way beyond what they could afford, since the real value of their houses won't drop much, but the real value of their mortgages will. Now wouldn't that be ironic: liar-loaners being the biggest beneficiaries of the outcome.
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I am not a financier. Greece has over spent for years, now they are in debt. Does anyone wonder about that? Imagine Greece were your neighbour, bashing a credit card!
Who let them run up so much debt? Someone knew what was happening. Greece is our neighbour, bashing a cc!
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@6. At 8:17pm on 10 May 2010, Just an observer
Well said. Greeks were saying this all along and Merkel was resisting. Result: Eurozone crisis, EU crisis, Global crisis, Merkel losing the elections. As Greeks were saying all along (I repeat) there was no other solution when you are in a family. One member falls, all will fall. If there is no rescue plan, we will all fail. Federalism and common fiscal policy are not a luxury but a necessity because of the crazy global market so that we can protect ourselves. It is a pity that so many weeks passed and the rescues became more expensive (bad news for the tax payers). As far as the moral hazsrd is concerned, itis a rediculous claim, at least as far as Greece is concerned a severe austerity programme has been imlemented and more are to come with badly needed structural changes which will change Greece for ever. Moral hazard issue for Greece has been clearly addressed and in my opinion cuts went too deep tto the poor. Anyway, I am pleased to see better late than never the EU to take steps towards the actions that Greece was pushing for from the very beginning. I am pleased to hear EU countries to try to tackle the wolf pack of speculators as Greeks said from the beginning. I told you so all along. Another Greek present to the world. :-)
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The rally is over and doubts resurface after only one day of joy. Greeks probably cooked the books in another topic. The actual number of Greeks around. Apparently there are vast numbers of them all over the eurozone. Portugal and Spain are swarmed with them. Ireland and Italy are suspected to have huge numbers of them in hiding. Rumor says that no country is free from that horrible infection. Not even Germany is free of that terrible pest.
Don't worry though. The markets are here. Working close with local governments, the EU commission and the ECB, have started their hunt. Every Greek will be found and taken care off. We will reduce his income, cut his benefits and tax him. Order will be restored. The system must survive, Greek free.
The rest of the West is watching carefully. Intelligence reports confirm that there are sleeper Greek cells in every advanced country. Lessons from the battle of eurozone will be studied carefully and implemented. The Greek menace will be dealt with.
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Merkel has been claiming all along that (bad) Greece is an exception and should more or less go to IMF as individual. She was dragged to a an IMF/EZ packet for Greece. But still this was not enought to tackle not the Greek problem but the EZ problem as Greece said all along. These developments show that a generic EU mechanism for rescue had to be established (with IMF since it has available moneys and above all technical knowledge for such unfortunate situations) from the very beginning. Gavin be fair. Merkel was wrong and Papandreou was right.
We (the simple people) need defense from wolf packs of speculators, hedge funds and rating agencies. I am very pleased that this obvious to me issue has finally been recognised widely.
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I hope that when all this is over that the Greeks do not revert back to the bad housekeeping and practices that contributed to the situation they find themselves in.
I also hope that the Greeks remember who else helped to get them into this situation, namely the "prudent" north european and american bankers and their crazy investments, which caused the worlds trade to practically
stall and so badly effected the shipping industry.
I am also fed up of hearing about how the poor old germans have had to put their hands in their pockets to help out the Greeks. Firstly they are not helping the Greeks they are ensuring that the Euro survives and they do not end up being dragged down.Not to mention the Millions in interest!
Secondly isnt it ironic that the germans who destryed so much of europe especially Greece and never made good the damage, have spent the last 60 years earning fortunes from rebuilding it.
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I don’t think the speculators are going to put off by this announcement. What you now have is a group of people (eurozone politicians) inexperienced in the market armed with a vast hoard of other people’s (taxpayers) cash and placing their chips on political grounds that include their own vanity rather than economic fundamentals. There is a many a would-be George Soros that will look upon this announcement as the creation of the biggest honey-pot in history and will be thinking ‘a fool and his 750 billion are soon separated’.
It is quite easy to image Sarkozy as a latter day Norman Lamont throwing good money after bad while confusing a political disaster for himself with an economic disaster. When sterling left the ERM in 1992 it was a political disaster for Lamont and the Conservatives, but definitely not an economic disaster. Indeed it was the start of the longest expansion (almost 17 years) in the British economy for 300 years. It is quite likely that Greece, Ireland etc. will see no end to deflation until they leave the euro and that, like Britain post-ERM, they will subsequently look back on the date as the beginning of an economic renaissance.
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The speculators are going to go away but the people of Countries with large debts must not allow to be targets again. Public spending must be reduced. In Greece there is a large number of pension holders who were awarded the money as a reward for loayalty to the party and by falsifying the required papers and obtaining life time disability. These people may amount to over 1 billion Euros each year. Maybe with the creation of an information telephone line, people could address the government with concerns and ways to reduce the deficit. The Euro has become an important currency and the entire free World depends on its wellbeing and future economic benefit.
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UK can opt out of EUSSR?
Oh really?
So how come UK cannot have a referendum on the matter?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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I'm still mystified by the accounting. When Sarkozy took office the first thing he said was that the French government was bankrupt. Where will France's contribution to this fund come from? Has something about the French economy or government finances changed drastically since then? Was he lying then or is he lying now? We all know the condition the finances of the British government are in. Italy and Spain are hardly in a position to contribute. They are among the beggars, not the begeees. That leaves Germany whose people were adamant about the Greek bailout. How will they react to this one? And as the condition of North Rhine-Westphalia shows they have plenty of financial problems of their own. So where will the money come from? In addition to the EU's own direct contribution of 500 billion or whatever it is, the larger economies will have other obligations to the bailout because they are also contributors to the IMF. Again, with no apparent sources to obtain this money from, is this nothing more than mere hype to try to bluff the markets? If the markets call their bluff and this rescue falls like a house of cards being no more in substance than the smoke and mirrors Europe's usual bluster and puffery amounts to, will that be the end of the Euro? This seems to have been a very hasty and rash idea cobbled together without much thought. About as well considered as the EU and Euro themselves. Very European....and BTW, obviously with no consent of the taxpayers who will be tapped to foot the bill either. Those riots in Greece could spread all over Europe when the impact this will have on the lives of tens of millions of ordinary people is felt. Parallels to Louis the XVI? Apres moi le deluge? Will they get it right in the aftermath of a continent wide French revolution this time? I doubt it. They're Europeans and think with their hearts, not with their heads. Will we see another Napoleaon? Will history repeat itself?
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BTW, I know it was Louis XIV who said Apres moi le deluge, no need to remind me. Just watch out for the women with knitting needles.
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49. At 06:18am on 11 May 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
' ...what government need to explain to their countries i.e. the word "union"! '
EUpris: And we need to make it clear to them what "NO!" means.
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#57 Starofthesouth
You make a long ramble of pros and cons , ins and outs of how to make the EU work .
You said ," In my opinion the future will bring a total EU colapse ". I agree with you .
You ramble on trying to think of other options . I don't really think a two speed EU will work and I doubt you would find a willingness of nation states to completely give up their sovereignty to be part of a single state Europe .
Why should European countries want an even deeper union . It is not so long since the failure of the Soviet Union , which was bankrupt at the end . Why should we want an EUSSR , when we have already seen it doesn't work . After all these years of EEC and EU Europe is not a prosperous place . All countries are living on borrowed money , it is questionable how they are going to pay it back .
Angela Merkel has put the EU before her own country and people . My guess is that she has sacrificed her politcal career fot the EU ; as she will find out at future elections . The Germans will never forgive her for it , they will only feel more bitter towards the EU and many will want out .
John_of_Hendon Writes of the petty little people running our nation states . Quite right ! But the people running the EU and it Parliament are 2nd and 3rd rate compared to national politicians .
#11 smroet " Still once more there is " Britain and Europe ", as if the UK was not part of the EU ". Quite Right ! Whatever our politicians try to tell us , that is how the British people view the EU .
British people may be the most vocal eurosceptics ; but every country has them The French and Dutch voted down the EU Constitution , as core members of the EU that was a very mean and eurosceptic thing to do .
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CA;
"They would lend money again, because: what else can they do with it?"
Having been swindled out of it once, I'd think they'd prefer to pour gasoline over it and set it ablaze rather than risk being cheated again by the same people. However, in reality, the world is much larger than European governments and not only do they have to compete for that money with other governments but shock and awe, in a capitalist world there's an entire universe of private borrowers who could put it to far better use and not only assure it would be returned but with interests....or even with dividends and appreciation the result of....profits!
This brings up a good point. What the often heard term "flight to quality" really means is a flight to a place where there is certain to be political and socail stability and order of sorts and that is the United States. That is where the money will go and the best and brightest people with it. That is the one place that still offers a safe haven for it...in relative terms. Because as the 800 pound gorilla in the room as they say, when you get to the bottom line, if the US economy doesn't survive, nobody elses will either so it won't matter where it went. The deleted posting on the last thread explained why the long term outlook for the US is very bright even if its short term outlook is rocky and Europe's is dismal.
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v;
"Greeks were saying this all along and Merkel was resisting. Result: Eurozone crisis, EU crisis, Global crisis, Merkel losing the elections."
Merkel's party didn't lose the election because she resisted bailing out Greece but because she caved in. In case you didn't read the news, the people who live in North Rhine-Westphalia were angered that the money went to bail out Greece instead of bailing out them. Somehow they had the peculiar and selfish notion that German money should be spent first on Germans and not on the illusive and abstract "European project." There's plenty on BBC's web site about the demonstrations there last week.
Merkel didn't say that Greece was an exception, she said that Germany wasn't going to bail out the entire EU, that she was drawing the line at Greece. It looks like that promise has evaporated almost before the echoes of it died away. Germany looks to be Europe's bank account. There are lots of countries who can hardly wait to get their hands on some of it. I think the UK wouldn't mind some financial help itself no matter which party comes to power. BTW, which party will come to power? The one the voters rejected or the one that less than a majority felt ought to run the government? Perhaps for Britain, a the only thing better than a weak government would be no government at all. At least that way it couldn't spend itself into even deeper debt than it is already in if such a thing is at all possible. I wouldn't lend it any money.
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Euprisoner wrote
"WEUpris: A German bloke living near the Dutch border who had lots of dealings with the Dutch told me that since the introduction of the Euro, the banks had increased their fees for transferring money to Holland. When he complained his bank told him they were just making up for the loss of earnings from other currency transfers. So the Euro did not make as much difference as some think."
EUPrisoner - Transfer fees in the eurozone are the same as sending money within a eurozone country. Here is the EU Commission document that proves you are a liar.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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EUprisoner you are simply the conservative element holding up progression. You cannot stop it, only slow it down. Progress will prevail.
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Did anyone ever believe that forming a project as big as the EU would happen without any problems? Soldier on,
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# 1. At 7:29pm on 10 May 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:
# 2. At 7:31pm on 10 May 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:
Re:1&2:
“””President Van Rompuy said: "We can't have a monetary union at the end without some form of economic and political union, and that is our big task for the coming weeks and the coming months.
The President of the Commission, Jose Manuel Barrosso, said: "We need a stronger union in economic policy, a stronger compliance by member states.
EUpris:
People don't want that. Merkel, Rumpoy, Sarkozy, Barroso start listening!
The "EU" is not a solution to any problem.
The "EU" is a problem.””””
------
Listen to Van Rompuy. What does he talk about? Monetary Union… economic union… political union….
I am sorry but is that missing a form of union there? Where is the Defense union? ANY sort of political construction starts and ends in a military union. As simple as that. All the rest is for the village fairs. How on earth can EU sustain a political, economical and monetary union when not only it has not the army to support it but actually some countries are undermining the very territorial integrity of others.
Problem is not the idea of a common European construction Euprisoner, the problem is how it is in reality constructed. At some point, either it will have to mutate to something purposeful or simply vanish : for some countries Russia with its economic example which is relatively less dependandable to the fluctuations of the market sounds much nicer nowadays… which means that there are other trees that make more juicy fruits too apart from apple trees.
Re3: If you really wanted a more federal-like approach then what I say above is even more true:
Starting point = one defense, military, army, rockets, missiles & bombs, bam!boum! …how to say it else?
We are light-years far from it. All other efforts which do not take into consideration the above are BOUND to FAIL. And yes, that is directly linked to the current economic instability of Europe.
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"The situation of the Euro and EU is becoming laughable ! Where has the EU and ECB got all this money from , to bail out member states that are bankrupt ? The ECB either would have to sell all the gold reserves , or has made arrangement to borrow the money . Could we see in the near future the ECB going the way of Lehmans ?"
Huaimek - The ECB doesn't get the money from anywhere. IT PRINTS IT. Do you understand that? Really?
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lou1956 wrote
"Secondly isnt it ironic that the germans who destryed so much of europe especially Greece and never made good the damage, have spent the last 60 years earning fortunes from rebuilding it."
What a pathetic comment...
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'69. At 11:22am on 11 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
UK can opt out of EUSSR?
Oh really?
So how come UK cannot have a referendum on the matter?
Inquiring minds want to know.'
Not keeping up, are you. It's been stated by various people on these blogs that it is up to the UK Government whether or not it wishes to hold a referendum on any EU related issue (Lisbon Treaty, the Euro, in-or-out). Now if the British general public over the last couple of weeks had voiced their opinion that the most important electoral issue was Europe, then you could guarantee that all of the mainstream political parties would have been scrambling for their votes, and the main topic of negotiation between the Tories, Libdems and Labour over the last few days would not be a referendum on electoral reform but a referendum on Europe. But that was not the case. Not because every body in the UK is deliriously happy about EU membership, but because (I guess) people accept there is no realistic alternative. Maybe if UKIP instead of the Libdems had held the balance of power things may have been different, but, well, the UKIP results speak for themselves.
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As yesterdays rally fades and in the particular example of the Euro's rally as a currency it appears to have faded very quickly we are left with problems with this aid plan. For the ECB there is the problem explained by the notayesmanseconomics web blog.
"This means that the ECB will be filling its coffers with low quality assets and selling high quality ones. As it already had the lowest threshold for collateral out of the world’s central banks one can now safely say that it will soon have a quality mismatch between its assets and its liabilities of a frightening dimension. You could put this as a type of sub-prime central banking."
In general I feel that we are getting short-term solutions at the price of more long-term problems.
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"So how come UK cannot have a referendum on the matter?
Inquiring minds want to know."
Perhaps if Clegg gets to be PM, you will have it. Vae Victis.
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It seems to me that eventual outcomes will be that Germany will rule or Germany will quit. If Germany cannot impose its fiscal and social policies on other Euro Zone members, then I believe it will seek to leave, to bring back the Deutschmark and to establish a loose trading agreement with other European countries. Of course, this scenario is unlikely to happen as most Euro Zone countries are petrified of going it alone without the great paymaster. So Spain, France, Benelux, etc, will buckle under to the German demands (legitimate in my view). Their politicians will carry on pretending to they are part of a club of equals, but all the time knowing that they are subservient to Germany.
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€/$ 1.2676 2pm. again heading south
Dow futures -1%
UK -1.6 %
Another bumpy ride ?
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13. At 10:29pm on 10 May 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
“”””...What about if the fundamental problem for Europe is NOT a lack of growth, inflexible labour markets and expensive public sectors. What if it is the wrong type of growth i.e. growth through debt (personal & public) What about if the idea the markets keep preaching us that we need growth is a false god? What about if the excesive debts we have are because our government paid huge amounts of money to rescue the inefficient financial markets? What about if we have just low sustainable growth? What about if that is a far better approach to growth?””””
As you do quite often ChrisArta you hit a nail right on the point there.
There are alternatives. But leave them after WWIII – and only in case those who move the international financial scene now perish which unfortunately even in that unfortunate case of WWIII is really improbable since they will be the last to perish: them and cockroaches... hehe...
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@73. At 12:03pm on 11 May 2010, Huaimek
We now have a 3 speed EU, Eurozone, all the new EU states & finaly us here in the UK :)
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H;
"Why should European countries want an even deeper union . It is not so long since the failure of the Soviet Union , which was bankrupt at the end ."
It is in typically characteristic behavior of Europeans that in formulating the EU, they didn't seem to have considered the failures and successes of other systems, other organizational entities of various sizes and types including the closest comparable ones to what they were creating such as the US and USSR. They had their own ideas and would not be swayed by anyone else's experience, even if as a failed model to be avoided.
The USSR went bankrupt for many reasons, its inefficient socialist economic system, its centralized overbearing bureaucracy, the vast empire it subsidized around the world, and the nuclear arms race whose escalation the Reagan Administration pursued as a matter of policy eventually was the straw that broke the camel's economic back.
The EU doesn't have an arms race, in fact it hardly has any military costs at all, that is being borne by American taxpayers. But it does have a quasi socialist system, a welfare state that is not so far different from socialism and central planning and control over every aspect of life including what the curvature of bananas must be to be allowed to be sold commercially that it suffers the same vast bureaucratic inefficiencies and myriad regulations, restrictions and taxes on private business, the only mechanism that really works for generating wealth in any meaningful way. It also has what amounts to an internal empire it acquired to puff itself up as a larger political entity to challenge the US. It has to subsidize that empire too and the cost is becoming too much to bear. As for its federalism, it is a rediculous parody of America's. To any American who studies it in any detail it is clearly absurd and unworkable violating every basic principle which underlies America's own. It is hardly any wonder it has failed in every possible way, it has copied the worst of both the USSR and the US. And like any dictatorship, as it heads for the storm, there is no sane voice either individually or in chorus by the millions which can persuade the captains to change course. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead! So why should anyone be surprised when the ship goes down. The unsinkable Titanic II.
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Since clearly Mr Gavin Hewitt has become BBC's special correspondent on the Greek crisis, can someone please tell me who is now BBC's Europe editor and direct me to his or her blog?
I understand the Greek/Euro crisis is important, but it really isn't the only thing that's happening on the entire continent! Am I the only one bored to tears with this topic?
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15. At 10:34pm on 10 May 2010, moxtherog wrote:
“””””Good management is about high quality decision making through ultimate ownership. Responsibility and authority have to be invested in one and the same decision maker, who understands they will answer for the consequences.”””””
Who told you that good management is the winning secret combination? I work in the industry and can show to you that good management cannot win even in the 50% of cases. I have 1000s of paradigms to show to you. And that is the free market out there! Now extrapolate that to whole countries!!!
“””””Consider the captain of 18th. centuary ship alone in the Atlantic with a crew of 600; no communication, no buck-passing, no muddying of consequence-ownership; the highest authority under God. His decision makes or breaks; this is the "alpha-mindset".”””””
“”””What just happened was that the Club Med "captains" were told, they are not responsible for their fate any more, and yet they still have spending authority. If they monkey it up they will get bailed out.”””””
Well you expect them to buy the overly expensive French weaponry and not Russian, to get the overly expensive German contractors for building the airport and not Chinese, to get the overly expensive German industrial products and not Korean, to get the overy expensive Saoudi oil & gas and not the cheap Russian gas, you expect them to built unnecessary products to fill German & French commands lists …. But from there on you expect them to be fully responsible for their economies eh?
Nice one there! You almost had me!
“”””Is it not now the case that Greek Chancellors have the authority to spend German money at will?”””
I will have to count how much Greece got indebted, substract the inner corruption (even including the German/French induced one, let it be…), subtract the useful projects and then count how many projects were decided just to fill the German/French/Italian commands lists. From there on I will make the addition, devided it accordingly to the money these countries give as LOAN to Greece and tell you how much is really German money.
“”””How will that effect their decision making now?””””
The “Greek” government is not Greek. It works for the account of US. Everything it does is to move forward the US plan for the greater region. There is no European effect on that, either you like it or not.
“”””Will the Athenien rioters be happy with a government that persists in tightening the financial straps when such an obvious easy way out has just been presented?””””
“”””If a new Greek hospital is built, will the German taxpayer pay for it afterwards? Is there any mechanism for asking their permission first?””””
If you really see these loans as “German money entering the Greek market” then you must take into account that this money will be used to:
1) Buy Saoudi gas at double rates
2) Naturalise 200,000 largely unemployed (or half-employed in the black market) illegal immigrants exploding the social burden to new heights
3) Pay for the continuation and fossilisation of the state(mafia)run ports where workers get dizzying salaries (a primary school graduate worker getting 40,000 to 150,000 euros net per year) instead of closing all that and leasing the largest part of ports to Chinese and Russians (and whoever else) privatising the rest
….. and the list becomes endless….
All that because Europeans also want it so (not the governments necessarily but certain circles). It has to be said that Germany was againt Greece getting cheap Russian gas. So why do you complain dear now about “Germans paying the price”? Get your act right, arrest the Siemens and Mercedes directors for corruption, pay-back the submarine that can float around (some tremendous German quality there!) and give the 50% of the 80% (!!!!! A world first!) pre-payment for the rest 3 until you finish the final acceptance tests in the Aegean sea, and then we may sit down to speak about how much Germany can financially aid Greece (and none said it needs financial aid – that is the biggest illusion of all).
Really, don’t you feel there is someone out there fooling all German people? They really pass them for very naïf people. Germany, last vote for Olympics remember? 2001, Greek economy accepted in euro remember? What was there to convince anyone that back then all was good for Greece?
“”””Time to roll up the European single currency experiment?””””
… and not only!
PS: Really, honestly now, has anyone in Germany told people that Greece actually was offered attractive loans by Russians and Chinese followed by amazingly beneficial for Greece (and thus EU) projects, real projects, not fiestas and bridges in the middle of nowhere? Has anyone told German people that
1) Greek US-backed government has hidden the above from Greek people (but Greeks got informed of course…)
2) German government has hidden the above from German people, they are ignorant of this now
3) All other EU countries have hidden the above from their people, they are ignorant of this now
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G and O
"EUprisoner you are simply the conservative element holding up progression. You cannot stop it, only slow it down. Progress will prevail."
This is your Captain of the Titanic speaking. I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that we are making excellent time, we are ahead of schedule, and progress has prevailed. The bad news is that we have just hit an iceberg, the ship is taking on water, it will soon sink to the bottom because nothing can be done to stop it, and we don't have enough lifeboats to save everyone. Have a nice day. (Carry on. Stiff upper lip.)
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loch ness;
"Did anyone ever believe that forming a project as big as the EU would happen without any problems?"
Had the EU founders and those who followed in their footsteps believed it, they might have thought it out more carefully before they implimented it. Had they given as much consideration to the likely curvature of the downward plunge of their finances as to the curvature of bananas they might have arrived at a plan to avoid being where they are today. But from the hasty way they balled up the lint, chewing gum, spit, celophane tape, and paper clips to create this latest miracle cure to the EU's ills, it appears they've spend more time on the advertising of their brainchild than on the conceiving of it. The EU itself seems to have been such a creation.
One good thing will come of it though. In any meeting of the EU where a bowl of fruit is set out for the attendees to snack on, there will be no out of spec bananas to spoil their ponderous deliberations, there will no blaming failure on too straight or too curved bananas.
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75. At 12:24pm on 11 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
v;
"Greeks were saying this all along and Merkel was resisting. Result: Eurozone crisis, EU crisis, Global crisis, Merkel losing the elections."
Merkel's party didn't lose the election because she resisted bailing out Greece but because she caved in. In case you didn't read the news, the people who live in North Rhine-Westphalia were angered that the money went to bail out Greece instead of bailing out them. Somehow they had the peculiar and selfish notion that German money should be spent first on Germans and not on the illusive and abstract "European project." There's plenty on BBC's web site about the demonstrations there last week.
--------------------
Well, I live in North-Rhine Westpalia and I can asure you, that the handling of the greek crisis by Merkels government was a factor, but only one of many. That foreign media pick this reason as the main is understandable, because other reasons are more local and would request more knoledge from the viewer, than the ordinary foreigner has about federal states of foreign countries.
And german media blew this greek case up too.
Interesting fact is, that the greek crisis was instrumentalisized from both directions of the political spectrum. For the left, she helped to late and she was claimed to try to hide the real problems until the election day was over, for the right, it was a fraud on the own people to pay for other countries debts.
But in the whole, Merkel got punished for many other resons too. Many people are not satisfied with the work of our new coalition since the general election in many ways. And also the prime minister of North-Rhine Westphalia had a party financing scandal that cost them many votes.
And, not to forget, NRW is the traditional socialdemocratic heartland. That the conservatives won the last election was an historical abnormality, a punishment for chancelor Schröders social cuttings in Germany at that time.
And, last but not least, the local elections in the big federal states, like NRW or Bavaria, Hesse, Lower-Saxony or Baden-Wuerttemberg always have a tendency to be used as warning for the Berlin Government and the germans tend to like it, when the upper house of parliament, the assembly of the federal states, has a different majority than the Bundestag. You know, we tend to like consensual governing and like to give the opposition some influence.
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77. At 12:38pm on 11 May 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"EUprisoner you are simply the conservative element holding up progression. You cannot stop it, only slow it down. Progress will prevail."
Kaiser Bill: I believe in the horse. The automobile is a passig phenomenon.
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38. At 03:05am on 11 May 2010, moddydave wrote:
“”””If I was a Greek politician being offered all the money I could spend, I'd probably splash it around while I could as well.”””””
Father Papandreou Andreas (1/2 Greek, 1/2 American) on the 1980s loans : “Why should I worry about over-borrowing? By the time creditors will ask they money back, I will be dead”. So the 1980s became the big party time… well … not exactly “party time”… but “time” for his party people to “party”…)”. Ironically the time comes when his son Giorgakis Jeffrey Papandreou (1/4 Greek, 3/4 American, learnt Greek at school) is here to deal with it (accidental? Not really…elections in Greece are triggered in all sorts of ways and sometimes even rigged in various ways, like in 2000… ) in his own unique (US-affiliated) way. Note, grandfather Papandreou came in Greece in 1944 along with the British to take up the situation and the civil war started. Now you know what is THEIR role.
“”””But the bigger picture is China's push for world financial/political domination and US [and others] profligacy:”””””
As MAII has correctly stated in the past and in his point below, China’s own development is not internal communist-based but US-dollar based. US does not buy Chinese products selling them oil or gold or mechanical products or other materials of value but it does so simply with US dollars. China uses the US dollars to buy resources where it passes, like in African countries (and hence, its hesitation to buy cheaper resources from Russians where the dollar does not pass). Once the US dollar goes down, China will meet a serious setback and will have to restructure its economy. It will be able to do it will be really painful.
“”””American or UK families flooding the malls every weekend - let's consume, we're american!, "my car [or some other toy] is 2 years old, I must get a new one"””””
Yes, but these things are not irreversible. I do believe that Americans are living in a country with more space than Europeans and with more natural resources which permits them to more easily develop economies of proximity which are a nice answer to the current unsustainable, resource-wasteful and socially largely unfair model.
“”””One Remedy: Reduce our card debt, maybe even save a bit, encourage US-based production and especially innovation, spend 20-30% less on defence [why is the US still subsidising the defense of the western world? does it make you feel like big man?] and redirect it to education/healthcare/entrepreneurism/removing our dependence on oil.
””””
Often when I present myself as an anti-US crusader here people falsely believe that I am anti-US-citizen or something when I am only anti-US-current-gepolitics. And said, that yes you pressed the sensitive button there:
All that expansion to the east, the HUGE investments in China, the over-dependence in foreign imports (and oil is just a rather small fraction of it!) simply do not serve not only the medium-term interests of US citizens but not even the short term ones, let alone the long-term ones. US citizens have to think it seriously. What is it more important for them? To play for some decades more the planet-master before disappearing through war or other short of political upheaval? Or to continue their country as the most rich and progressed country in the world, a healthy and strong international player who co-decides along with EU-countries, Russia, China, India, Brazil but NOT necessarily the most powerfull anymore? It is a tricky decision. This approach will benefit the US citizens, the US industrialists but NOT the US bankers and investors. The latter (i.e. current) approach benefits only the bankoinvesting US circles and none else in the US.
If you think that this is a unique case here, no, there were other Empires that came to that point. Take the Byzantine Empire of the 11th century. It was at the height of its power and it had 2 choices: continue in investing on local industries and commerce or invest in North Italy (Venice and Genova) and use the Empire as a means of yielding international market to suit these investments. Well the Byzantine plutocracy pushed those Emperors (related to the well known Komnenian & Doukes families dynasty) making North Italy a fiscal paradise of those times, moving there all investments, killing all internal production. In 100 years, the Empire went to rise to its most rich state (but with continuously impoverished citizens) and in 200 years it did not exist any more having been conquered and completely destroyed to oblivion by north Italians & their tiers Franks.
The above story is of particular interest to US citizens today and it is a petty that it is story wrongly presented in most history books (most often they pass it quickly and without particular attention).
“”””””This hasn't even started yet, just wait...”””””””
I do share the same opinion with you. I am by nature an optimist but all things I read and see for the last 10 years make me pessimist.
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Re44: 44. At 04:40am on 11 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
“”””””Modern China is an American invention. It was cooked up by Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon after their visit there in 1973.””””
Correct. 100%
“”””It wasn't intended to kill of Europe but it has worked out that way.””””
Correct. It was to balance out Russia. Note that Japan had been similarly hugely aided to develop in the late 19th century for quite similar reasons.
“”””” The banking crisis that started in the US merely accelerated a process that had been underway for a long time anyway, it would eventually have come to this.”””””
When capital is hopping from place to place, events happen. Think the historic example of Byzantium above.
“”””America had better be careful that China doesn't gobble it up too. I don't think that will happen but American recklessness with money isn't helping it any.””””
Well when you arrive at the point of knowing how to make the best rocket but cannot anymore produce sufficiently the bolts and nuts that go in the simplest of rockets as a result of years of outsourcing, then you have an issue there. Some inner Byzantine undustrialists tries to re-build the local ship construction after some 100 years of outsourcing to north Italians. They failed miserably as Italians blackmailed the whole market. US has already entered suh a mode with China.
President Obama will have created more debt in his first (and possibly last) four years in office than previous American governments created in 200 years. That's quite a record.”””””
Currently the record is held by Bush junior, no matter if republican. Let us see what democrat Obama will do… but I do have the feeling that he is not up to reducing the debt – you will have to make the calculations attributing interest to the one who took the loans at first place. Note that the bad beginning was done with Bush, father and it was under the saxophonist Clinton’s year that the final baseline was laid out : Clinton’s leadership is the one that lead America there, no wonder Clinton, the wife is still there governing along with Obama.
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69. At 11:22am on 11 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"UK can opt out of EUSSR?
Oh really?
So how come UK cannot have a referendum on the matter?
Inquiring minds want to know."
EUpris:
1) We have not had that referendum yet. That does not mean that we will not have one in the future or leave without one.
2) We might be able to get them to throw us out.
3) Failing that we can work towards the destruction of the "EU". When it ain't there no more we will definitely be out. They have created something which automatically gives us an interest in working for its destruction.
"inquiring minds"
EUpris: How many minds have you got? Have others said it to you or are you claiming the God like power to read other peoples mind as happens every so often here?
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85. At 1:01pm on 11 May 2010, frenchtommy wrote:
""""If Germany cannot impose its fiscal and social policies on other Euro Zone members, then I believe it will seek to leave, to bring back the Deutschmark and to establish a loose trading agreement with other European countries.""""
That is fine. Actually some countries including Greece won't even be interested in "loose trading agreemnts". There is absolutely nothing that Germany produced that cannot be found in other countries at cheaper or better prices: to serve coffee bitter and no sugar: "poor Greeks will drive a Lada, rich Greeks a Ferrari". No need to have Audi & VW byuers there.
""""Of course, this scenario is unlikely to happen as most Euro Zone countries are petrified of going it alone without the great paymaster.""""
No, not at all. Countries will adapt currencies and markets to suit them. There are many alternatives out there, Russia and China to name two active ones, India and Brazil to name passive ones. Each country has its own special fears. In Greece the main fear is not financial but geopolitical: the country's own physical existence is threatened.
""""....pretending to they are part of a club of equals, but all the time knowing that they are subservient to Germany.""""
Which is wrong. Germany has indeed a big economy, a big industry, a big population BUT it lacks what France has: "completeness". The Gaulic dream, France, has the most powerfull army, it has the nuclear, it has the space access, it has all the top end military technology while always maintaining all sectors of the economic spectrum to acceptable levels (including - very important - agriculture). Germany is incomplete and as such putting it ahead of EU is inherently problematic. If a country had to lead Europe, that had to be France, not Germany.
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79. At 12:49pm on 11 May 2010, Nik wrote:
Re3: If you really wanted a more federal-like approach then what I say above is even more true:
Starting point = one defense, military, army, rockets, missiles & bombs, bam!boum! …how to say it else?
We are light-years far from it. All other efforts which do not take into consideration the above are BOUND to FAIL. And yes, that is directly linked to the current economic instability of Europe.
--------
Well, there is military union to a certain extend. But not all of the countries are on the same level of depth.
We develope and build weapons together, we have german-french or other bilateral military units, we even have european forces of several thousand soldiers.
But you're right, our common defense is not mainly organized european but with the NATO alliance.
And we were farther, a few years ago, until Bush divided us in old and new europe about the Iraq war.
But in the end, there is the german-french alliance, that for France and Germany is above all other alliances. This block somehow garantues peace in Europe, because an european war could not be won against Germany without France, and not against France without Germany.
To add the Nato Alliance to this is not a bad thing, as obviously it's never bad to be friends with the biggest military power on earth.
On the other hand, this gives the USA an influence over Europe, that sometimes is hard to take. In Germany, we would like to have a triumvirat of France, UK and Germany in all political, economical, military issues. But we cannot get that from the Brits. At least, this is our point of view.
To often the Brits opt out of anything and one gets the feeling, that UK very often takes part only as kind of an american ambassador, if common european things have to be decided.
So, by any respect, the public, let's better say: publisized british opinion in any european context is not much trusted in Germany and I think most of the middle european countries. It always smells somewhat american.
You shouldn't believe too much, what your politicans and media offer you as common sence in and about Europe. There is a big difference between yours and ours. We sometimes cannot see, what your problem is, when you talk about a too socialistic approach to the EU, while here many people think, that the EU is much too neolib.
There simply is not such a big animosity about the EU and even an ever closer political Union in center continental Europe, than in England.
You might not imagine it, there was even a discussion between France and Germany only a few years ago, that all Germans should get an french Passport and all French a german. Dual citizenship for all Germans and French was discussed and no overheated nationalistic uproar as result. What a nice idea was the tenor.
Common agriculture market - GB opts out
Common currency - GB opts out
Common Borders - GB opts out
Iraq war - GB leads the coalition of the willing.
That are the real problems of the European Union. But only as long, as UK is part of it.
Thereby I don't want you to leave, but to take your place whole heartedly. But if you won't, then you'd better leave.
I always wonder, what advabntage for you country your eurosceptics see in an European Union without GB in it.
So, at leat for me, GB out of Europe is only half the truth that the eurosceptics want, they want no European Union at all. That could make sence in a macchiavellian way of thinking. That may GB give the possibilities to form various coalitionds and rule Europe, with your strong military and strong financial sector and the special relations to the USA.
He, but we want European Union and that brings you in confrontstion with France and Germany, who are not dumb enough to not understand your gameplan.
I'm in the end not realy shure, what the french motivation is, but I can ensure you, that the german people have no interest in any imperialistic power games. We had more than enough of then. We truly and sincerly search a common foundation for peace and prosperty in Europe.
What british eurosceptics are looking for is either nationalistic bullshit, or rather dangerously imperialistic in the core.
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to EUprisoner209456731
It is just amazing how you can zigzag through your unwritten constitution and play with the meaning of democratic and legitimate just the way you need it.
65% of the Brits voted last week against Cameron and still it looks like he will be the new PM.
If Brussels cut Europe into perfectly arranged constituencies and changed the boundaries at their will, believe me, they would get any result they want.
Get used to it...
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89. At 1:20pm on 11 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
“”””The EU doesn't have an arms race, in fact it hardly has any military costs at all, that is being borne by American taxpayers.””””
Who told you that an arms race is detrimental to economy? Why producing televisions aid economy more than producing rockets? Is watching television more productive than watching rockets being stored in packs in the back of some military wharehouse? Do not know the answer there, have to analyse it more.
“””” But it does have a quasi socialist system, a welfare state that is not so far different from socialism and central planning and control over every aspect of life including what the curvature of bananas must be to be allowed to be sold commercially that it suffers the same vast bureaucratic inefficiencies and myriad regulations, restrictions and taxes on private business, the only mechanism that really works for generating wealth in any meaningful way.””””
Marcus that is quite inflated. No European country is as “socialist” as you imagine. These things are relative. What is the difference between the good-old monopoly of AT&T and the good-old state run BT & FT? And would you propose – to take the extreme example – private firms for electricity and telecommunications for a country like Greece: remember: Greece = 135,000 km², 15,000 km coastline, 70% mountainous regions, more than 100 habitated.islands out of 3000. Make an educated guess: till the 1950s Greece had them both absolutely private (including US firms in there…). It was pathetic. Both markets went state-owned. In 10 years 90% of regions had both electricity and telephone, in 15 years 95%, even remote villages and little rocky islands, in 20 years you would be shocked to arrive somewhere without phone or electricity. Their financial results? Up to the 1990s: excellent. Somehow 2-3 years prior to privatisation results got bad (how, I let it to you to guess). Now these things are private, Greek citizens pay more for the same or often worse services and the country actually looses money.
I just give you some example how this “socialist” system you despide under certain circumstances is must more agile and effective and even cost-effective than the capitalist.
“””” It also has what amounts to an internal empire it acquired to puff itself up as a larger political entity to challenge the US. It has to subsidize that empire too and the cost is becoming too much to bear.””””
Yes, partially true indeed.
“”””As for its federalism, it is a rediculous parody of America's.””””
It is not a parody of US no. But it must not end up neither like a parody of US nor like US.
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Re #92 MAII
What Brussels unelected bureacrats have ben doing so far is rearranging deckchairs on Titanic and staying the curse.
While the EUSSR orchestra plays "Ode to Joy".
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From [BBC]Stephanomics:
"We don't know much about how the Eurozone special vehicle would work. Truth be told, eurozone officials don't either. After all, yesterday morning, it wasn't even a thought in their heads - let alone a plan.
When eurozone officials went to bed on Saturday, the 60bn euros souped-up European Commission lending facility was the only concrete proposal on the table."
And in the meantime several challenges have been already registered in Germany's Constitutional Court questioning constitutionality of the bail-out.
Please, stand by!
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French Tommy;
Recall that it was France and especially Germany who insisted on the Growth and Stabiity pact in Maastrict to prevent exactly what is happening now. Germany's obsessive fear, the kind of hyperinflation they experienced after WWI, the result of impossible deficits. And it was France and Germany who argued against the Growth and Stability Pact in the EU court when they were consistent violators of it and should have paid hefty fines. They are the ones who were responsible for eliminating it and will be among the ones to suffer the greatest consequences.
Government budget deficits of 3% GDP called for in the G and S pact were supposed to be a worst case rare exception with expected balanced budgets, surplusses or at most occasional slight deficits in hard times. As it has turned out, 3% for some countries is a pipe dream they can hardly hope to achieve any time soon. This is what I mean when I say Europeans think with their hearts instead of your heads, being unprincipled, constantly acceding to irrational demands, creating a welfare state at impossible costs to pacify a rediculous empire whether the personal empires of local politicians or the more grandiose ones of megalomaniacs. When push came to shove and a decision for action rather than theory had to be made, the entirely reasonable G and S pact went out the window. No fines, no enforcement, and out of sight and mind until the consequences caused an economic nuclear explosion. And now they are doing everything within their power to contain it. Pardon me for being skeptical that nuclear explosions once started can be contained.
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MAII -
contrary to you, I am an optimist and realist. You are a pessimist and a cynic. Somewhere, sometime in your life you messed up. Big time. You were disappointed by something you once loved and all that is left is bitterness. You are the remnants of a supernova. Its ok. Things come, things go. So will Europe, so will America, so will you.
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51. At 06:34am on 11 May 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
"The US already did it once in 1971, the world still moved on nothing bad happened and other countries and investors lend to the US after that, so no morning after problem!"
Chris. The US did not default on it's loans, bonds, whatever, in 1971.
What are you talking about? Please refer me to where you get this info. (You cannot refer to post 51. of this blog or for that matter posts of any blog).
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EU Prisoner;
"Failing that we can work towards the destruction of the "EU"."
It looks like the EU itself has beat you to it....and I must say doing one heck of a fine job at it. I could hardly have "planned it better me-self gov-nah." You couldn't write this stuff as fiction and get away with it.
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starofthesouth #100 - very accurate description of contemporary central European sentiment. Thank you. I would welcome one passport. With the 12 stars on the front.
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star over bedlam;
"What british eurosceptics are looking for is either nationalistic bullshit, or rather dangerously imperialistic in the core."
Yes how selfish of them to think that British taxpayer money should find its first place to be spent on British problems, not in places like Greece and that British people should be ruled by laws made by British citizens voted into office by British voters and serving them in Westminster rather than by those they didn't elect serving themselves in Brussels. Dangerously subversive...to the European project. Funny, it seems to me that some of the people in North Rhine-Westphalia feel the same way. It must be contagious. Jam BBC, ban British newspapers, that's the only solution to the problem. What's needed in NRW is "right thinking."
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Euprisoner - Stop whining about your silly referendum. If it was REALLY that important to your compatriots they would have voted UKIP. Well, they didn't. Tough luck. Find a new raison d'etre...
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Nik;
"Who told you that an arms race is detrimental to economy? Why producing televisions aid economy more than producing rockets? Is watching television more productive than watching rockets being stored in packs in the back of some military wharehouse? Do not know the answer there, have to analyse it more."
You really should learn more ecnomics, a subject your nation's educational system doesn't pay much attention to or put much priority on evidently.
Military arms are a one time use product which generate no further wealth. That is they have no multiplier effect. They sit around waiting to be used, are spent, and then discarded and replaced. A television set on the other hand can create new wealth by advertising products or stimulating thought that results in creativity, new enterprise. How many people got at least part of their education from watching television? How many people got at least one idea in their lives that might have resulted in a business, and investment, an invention, anything that created more wealth? Lots of them. I did.
"It [the EU] is not a parody of US no. But it must not end up neither like a parody of US nor like US."
Well I think it is a parody of the US, a laughable copy of the US. Just look at the symbol of its currency with two lines through it just like the US dollar. Look at its flag with five pointed stars on a blue background just like the American flag. But have no fear, it will not end up like the US because it just can't, it's not made of the same stuff. It will end up more likely the way the USSR ended up, bankrupt and on the ash heap of history. The flames are lit, I can smell the smoke already.
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I hope every time some new scheme is needed to keep the governments afloat that everyone remembers the bankers who convinced the elected, or bribed the elected, that their previous schemes of financing things was really a good idea. Again, the bankers will be the primary ones to benefit from these actions and it is time to change that. As taxpayers are burdened with more and more debt someone needs to ask where the growth will actually come from to support all of this. Aside from printing more money not much else has changed in the past two years. The crumbling foundations of these political institutions are a result of the corruption they have brought upon themselves and now are unable to free themselves to do what is needed. The banks are more powerful than the governments..until that changes extortion will be the order of the day.
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#66. At 11:07am on 11 May 2010, lou1956
"...isnt it ironic that the germans who destroyed so much of europe especially Greece..."
ESPECIALLY GREECE
let me translate this into %
around 30% of WWII damage was done in Greece
PATHETIC
Greeks will never change as long as they believe this myth that they have been the victims for over 2000 years...
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65. At 10:47am on 11 May 2010, vassilis
Not sure what you mean with Papandreou was right.
This new emergency package is nothing else than what Greece got in the end.
The IMF is in.
It's a warning from the North to the South:
You want that money, you know the conditions,... look at Greece...
No!? So you better make your homework
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Maybe Europe could learn a lot from the UK, as they have a...
political union
monetary union
fiscal union
military union
of 4 "home nations"
Maybe Euprisoner could explain to us how they got there...
through a referendum...?
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@107. At 3:28pm on 11 May 2010, MaudDib
Well they didn't say: "Sorry guys we will not pay you!" instead they said: "Sorry guys we can't pay you in gold as we agreed some years back, but now take this fake money as a repayment" Same difference!
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Euprisoner wrote:
"Kaiser Bill: I believe in the horse. The automobile is a passig phenomenon."
You just shot yourself in the foot mate. I believe in the automobile. Automobile is progress. You believe in the horse.
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@115. At 4:17pm on 11 May 2010, oeichler
This type of arrrogant rhetoric against the south is as real problem as the Greek financial failings and can obscure the major underlying problems of the Eurozone and the global financial system that have to be tackled also. If we all do not understand this and be humble at our failings (all countries have problems and it is better that we all look ourselves in the mirror) we are heading for disaster.
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G and O
"Somewhere, sometime in your life you messed up. Big time. You were disappointed by something you once loved and all that is left is bitterness."
Wrong. I am extremely pleased with my life. You are just angry at me for having some diversionary amusement at your expense. It makes you even angrier because you know I'm always right even if you won't admit it. I understand quite well. I suppose if I were in your shoes, I would not be amused at it either. You know what the problem is with lefties, at least one problem. They have no sense of humor. They never see the absurd side of life. Then they assume everyone else feels the way they do. I'm rather enjoying all of this. I'm more than a little curious to see where it goes.
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@112. At 3:57pm on 11 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII
Wrote: "Look at its flag with five pointed stars on a blue background just like the American flag. But have no fear, it will not end up like the US because it just can't, it's not made of the same stuff."
Oh no!! you mean 70 year old ladies will no be able to make underware from it and scare us to death when they show off in public :)))
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@116. At 4:35pm on 11 May 2010, oeichler
Yes we had a very democratic referendum!
Chopped off the head of the Scottish queen, that what we call a referendum!
Unfortunately it was not a very "clear cut" referendum :)))
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#100 starofthesouth
An honest question.
Common agricultural market -- GB opts out ?
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117. At 4:37pm on 11 May 2010, ChrisArta
Tell me again what countries base their currency on gold standard.
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Yo Chris
I think for the foreseeable future our fake money will gain in value against your fake money.
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Oh! I had almost lost this one:
65. At 10:47am on 11 May 2010, vassilis wrote:
"""""Merkel has been claiming all along that (bad) Greece is an exception and should more or less go to IMF as individual. She was dragged to a an IMF/EZ packet for Greece."""""
Vassili, Vassili,... no no no ... you got it all wrong.
Rewind the tape and restart:
Germany, among others, let Greece inside the euro in full knowledge of its condition. Ok was not Merkel, it was Shroedder, let it be. As long as Greece lied on its situation it would not bother Merkel that much, 2,5% of eurozone 1% of EU, what Merkel had worry out there? BUT Jeffrey wins the... sudden Greek elections in October 2009 and 3 days later he declared the real (real?) deficit at 12,5%, now at 13,5% (the mathematical could be anything from 15% to 20% but in reality the deficit is at 10% according to the average EU methodology!!! how about that?). Merkel naturally became furious! What was the point of that shouting out aloud? Couldn't Jeffrey ask from the back door some help, then go on do some effort inside Greece to make things better? Eh... guess what! Jeffrey is a US citizen dear! He works for the US. His place since the beggining was to implicate the IMF because that is the most sure way to affect the euro. So Merkel told him "Go on then... go deal with the IMF", but Jeffrey told her that he would rather default. Default was out of the question for EU since it would affect the euro thus all European economies. And kicking out Greece of the eurozone to let it default alone would be seen by creditors as a cheap trick. Greece had thus to be "saved" either from EU alone, either from IMF alone either both. In the first case, the EU would take up a large burden - large not because of Greece but of what lies ahead (Spain, Italy, Portugal and how about... France???). IMF alone was never really sought by Jeffrey as not the main plan, still it would indebt Greece "for ever" (more than a lifetime... like we paid the 1898 loans in 1970s... ).
"""""But still this was not enought to tackle not the Greek problem but the EZ problem as Greece said all along. These developments show that a generic EU mechanism for rescue had to be established (with IMF since it has available moneys and above all technical knowledge for such unfortunate situations) from the very beginning."""""
That is irrespective of the Greek case. That it is a trigger, means little.
All that story about IMF having "technical knowledge" is simply ridiculous. It is all about printing money out of thin air dear. A scum over the scum. Technically in the old days you needed a printer with the correct official stamp, the correct official chemical combination for the ink and then to press the button to start printing... now it is even more simple: you press a keybord and watch the screen fill with 0s.
""""Gavin be fair. Merkel was wrong and Papandreou was right."""""
Was right in what Vassilis? Papandreou was more busy in :
1) Freezing all accords with Russians on the gas pipeline (Russia-Bulgaria-Greece) that may bring in cheap Russian gas
2) Getting started with a joke-of-a-pipeline between Greece & Bulgaria for the import of overly expensive Saoudi liquified gas
3) Freezing all initial accords for the extensive leasing of a number of Greek ports to Chinese that would bring in huge Chinese investments in the country
4) Freezing of all talks with Russians for the leasing of Greek ports.
5) Establishment of state-run Organism of Ports that continuous the same overly corrupt system of the local labour-mafias (of workers paid salaries of 120,000 euros net etc.) as a means to inhibit any more future offers from Chinese or Russians
6) Giving the citizenship to 200,000 (i.e. in reality anything between 400,000 and 600,000 people) illegal immigrants whose quasi-totality are either full/part-time working in the black market or simply most of the time unemployed, thus adding a logistic/financial nightmare, let alone other more sinister considerations (rigging the elections is only one issue as the vast majority of them will be voting PASOK!).
7) Going on with the re-shuffling of regions, a costly restructuring plan in itself, that will merely add on top more costly structures in a country that... alone has the size of a region and which will further incapacitate the country's ability to stand again on its feet.
Quite a busy schedule that of Jeffrey isn't it Vassilis? One that sees the above, really wonders if it is the same schedule of the Greek PM who has to face a huge financial crisis!!!! Well yes, it is the very same Greek PM we talk about, Jeffrey Papandreou.
"""""We (the simple people) need defense from wolf packs of speculators, hedge funds and rating agencies. I am very pleased that this obvious to me issue has finally been recognised widely."""""
And you find your defense on Papandreou? He IS the chosen one of the speculators!!! Do you sleep well knowing you left the wolf guarding your sheep? The Goth guarding Rome?
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Love the title of your piece: Euro taking on the wolf-pack!
Wolf-Pack us an excellent name for financial speculators.
Personally, I am outraged against financial speculators, especially the hedge funds that undermined Greece’s sovereigty by betting against it. And it’s not just Greece, it’s all the STUPID little PIIGS that lined up in front of the slaughter-house.
There have been reports (which I have no reason to disbelieve) that new speculative activities of hedge funds are said to be betting against
1. the creditworthiness of and
2. against the value of the euro.
The EU financial guardians are now on the attack on the role of hedge funds and other financial speculation. The European Commission is investigating their activities with the specific objective of tightening their own regulation against external attack. Also under attack are those cancerous derivatives, especially credit default swaps.
It truly surprises me what little action has been taken thus far, especially when you consider that these products originate within the United States of America where they have caused devastating damage. When will the United States begin regulation? When will they stop this Wall-Street manipulation?
It was financial speculation, with the use of instruments such as securitisation of debts and credit derivatives, that laid the ground for the Western as well as global financial crisis. Despite the enormous harm they have caused, many of the speculators and the instruments have been allowed to continue their trade.”
Why?
In the United States, financial tycoons and their lobby groups wield enormous power over political leaders, including their massive contributions to political campaigns. In my opinion the United States is not a democracy; it is a plutocracy - run by the rich for the rich.
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) was requested to study the role the hedge funds played, but it declined…
Why?
The IMF is an American institution, American backed. Do you really think it did not understand the destructiveness of derivatives?
If the United States will not act, I can only be greatful that the EU is willing to act. More recently, the hedge funds are said to be short-selling the euro. No! Really?
The "Independent" of London recently pointed to 'fears of a hedge fund conspiracy to destroy the euro.'
As I said before, this is Economic Warfare.
Further, the "Independent" said (4 March) that the value of the 'bets' made by hedge funds and others against the European currency has reached more than $12B, almost double the amount of a few weeks ago, and the number of credit default swap (CDS) contracts has also soared. What's with that if it's not economic warfare?
It's mind-blowing that just a year or two after the near-collapse of the world financial system and the promises made by the leading Western countries to tighten financial regulation, new forms of speculation and manipulation have been seeping all over the place with no effort by these western cowboys to plug the holes.
The European Union's new Internal Market Commissioner, Michel Barnier, plans to investigate the short-selling of the euro and the abuse of the CDS market. Finally, the Greek government banned hedge funds from being allocated any of the 5 billion euros of bonds that it offered week of 1 March. At a meeting in Berlin, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Greek premier George Papandreou announced they would push the EU and the G20 to contain speculative instruments, such as credit default swaps, especially if the speculation is against sovereign states.
This is economic warfare, but at least our EU regulators are on the job, preventing this type of speculative cancer from killing the Euro.
This is a war the EU can and will win.
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#119. At 4:51pm on 11 May 2010, vassilis
It's spring time. All family members start spring cleaning in their own house first before asking for help
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7308070.stm
Friday, 21 March 2008
Greece passes pension reform bill
Greece's parliament has narrowly passed the conservative government's controversial pension reform bill that triggered mass public protests.
"The government is stealing the people's money. It's that simple," the leader of main opposition socialists, George Papandreou, said before his party's 102 deputies walked out of the vote.
"People have worked hard for their pension rights. Now, they are being taken away from them in the most arrogant way."
So when was he right? in 2008 or in 2010
According to him, himself is now arrogant, therefore wrong...
What a democrat, walking out of parliament...
But he knew why he walked out,... so he didn't have to vote against it, knowing that the reform was necessary and he might be in the situation to force through similar measures... How right...
Not only ARROGANT but also HYPOCRITE
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#122. At 5:02pm on 11 May 2010, ChrisArta
maybe with Brussels directives regarding the tools to be used, it would have been a "clear cut"
:-)
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#125. At 5:18pm on 11 May 2010, MaudDib
I hope so...
Makes you debt more expensive and our export cheaper.
Not sure that your government and your big Europe exposed corporates agree with your wish
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117. At 4:37pm on 11 May 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
@107. At 3:28pm on 11 May 2010, MaudDib
Well they didn't say: "Sorry guys we will not pay you!" instead they said: "Sorry guys we can't pay you in gold as we agreed some years back, but now take this fake money as a repayment" Same difference!
Ehehehehehehehehehehe.... My printer back home is EPSON. Good quality printer. I have printed pages and pages of really amazing stuff!!! Amazing stuff these printers!!!
Gold standard... what primitive habits are these! What are we? Conquestadors or Persian vassals? We are civilised people you know, progressive!
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Re127: Bluesberry you said:
"This is a war the EU can and will win."
The EU is far from there. Winning financial wars implies sound defense and energy policies and the EU simply lacks both.
As long as the EU will tolerate US-puppets like Jeffrey it will be far from being able to do anything about such things. See... when US interests are hit in some distant random country there is an "orange, white, rose, blue" revolution. EU is not even capable of containing its own stings like Jeffrey.
Very far from winning any war. If the situation becomes better that will be mostly because US financial circles decided so.
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@125. At 5:18pm on 11 May 2010, MaudDib
true:))
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Weeeell,
this is really interesting. I'd like to agree with #120 MAII, who wrote "I'm rather enjoying all of this. I'm more than a little curious to see where it goes. "
Probably, this calls for an explanation. First of all, as one could read from my former posts, I'm an ardent European. Second: I still personally feel, this "big" package was wrong (at least in the way it was communicated - was it communicated at all???), since I think, up to now, it's not really suited to keep pressure on every Euro-country to do their homework. Which I feel to be an absolute necessity!
I'm really curious, what's going to follow; and I'm absolutely convinced that there will be a sequel to this package of some sort. Lisbon treaty can be expected to see changes, as well as this G & S pact; and, perhaps most importantly, the rules within Euro-EU.
I really do understand MAII's curiosity, because, political action is not yet over, we just saw a beginning - only, we don't know all the facts.
One thing that really makes me laugh... the central-right government was punished in the German NRW polls on Sunday, probably for the 20 billion loan guarantee for greece (among other, perhaps more important reasons to be pretty angry at the government in NRW and in the federation). The opposition however... (at least the centre-left) is not and was never at all opposing these steps... it was just criticising their lateness, the shying away from these actions by the government. To put it straight, there is no influencial political power in Germany seriously opposed to the measures taken and their implications! That's something to keep in mind, when discussing German positions.
Ash
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We hit a bump in the road and some people scream "it's the end of the world!".
The debts of Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland sums up to 12% of one single year's EU GDP or 1.2% of EU GDP over the next 10 years.
Another thing: If you think the really rich keep their money in the bank, you are wrong; they invest in shares and bonds, property, etc. The "banks' money" isn't the banks' either, it is the property of you, me and the next guy who save to have some extra to make it through hard times and get a pension.
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Can you please stop calling him Jeffrey! Its a futile attempt at making him seem distant from the "real greeks" when he, in fact, is right now the best example of you lot.
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@135. At 6:30pm on 11 May 2010, St_John
Realy you have no idea how banks create money!
You realy think the money the banks issue are covered by deposits?
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137. ChrisArta wrote:
"@135. At 6:30pm on 11 May 2010, St_John
Realy you have no idea how banks create money!
You realy think the money the banks issue are covered by deposits?"
No, the deposits are used to cover the assumed risks of lending to investors.
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MAII
"Wrong. I am extremely pleased with my life."
You mean you are pleased by being offensive?
"You are just angry at me for having some diversionary amusement at your expense."
There we have it. You freely admit that your only goal is to be offensive. Sad, really.
"It makes you even angrier because you know I'm always right even if you won't admit it."
lol
"I understand quite well. I suppose if I were in your shoes, I would not be amused at it either."
I am sure you have no problems of your own, right?
"You know what the problem is with lefties, at least one problem. They have no sense of humor. They never see the absurd side of life. Then they assume everyone else feels the way they do."
You seem to know left from right, now there's a start. Nevertheless, you have no idea about whether I'm a "leftie" or not. I simply assume you are utterly confused.
"I'm rather enjoying all of this. I'm more than a little curious to see where it goes."
The only sensible sentence in your paragraph. Me too.
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130. At oeichler
I didn't say the rising dollar was a good thing for us. I just said that was what was happening. There is a chance if the EU doesn't implode that Germany will come out ahead with a lowed Euro. However, there are turns and twist that have to be negotiated. Here's hoping the pound, euro and I'm not quite sure about the yuan, go up. We could always trade sea shells.
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With repect Mr Hewitt:
"..EUropean Finance Ministers, the EUropean Central Bank, and the IMF.." ***THREW*** COMPLETELY UNCONSULTED CITIZEN TAX-PAYERS MONEY at "..defending the EUro."
Is there a single National Parliament or National Leader who has even mentioned never mind actually referred or deferred to their CITIZENS on the above 'policy' for rescuing the EUro? No!
Is it the European Finance Ministers' money? No!
Is it the EUropean Central Banks' money? No!
Is there any REPRESENTATION at any stage of the EU CITIZENS' opinions, views etc. as to how much money and how it will be disposed of? No!
The IMF is donating a separate portion and its responsibility to Citizens is altogether different: It does not lay claim to a CITIZEN ELECTORATE for its role in this deal.
It is quite astonishing that this EU entity for all its claims of being a 'Representative Democracy' has behaved wholly as an unelected central elite with all the shockingly anti-democratic manifestations of a Kremlin Politibureau.
The 'cost' to the EU CITIZENS is a travesty of fairness & justice: Not one MEP has had the guts to speak up for their EUROPEAN CONSTITUENTS & DEMAND that those responsible for the Economic-Fiscal debacle of the last decade be held to account.
Instead, most of those avaricious Bankers & senior Investment Executives whose greed-driven policies led to this disastrous situation were sitting with the Political Leadership cobbling together this deal & its methods to INCREASE THEIR BONUS PAYMENTS whilst CITIZENS face years of deprivation.
Mr Hewitt, for the next Article, why not try and find an MEP who reflects the views of the EUropean Citizens?
It'll be a thankless task, but at least You could then write You had tried to find someone willing to speak up for ordinary people against EU 'big-Business/big-Government'!
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Marcus the A:
You always seem to forget that the initial bailout that set all this in motion was by the Republicans..not that your views are slanted by your politics. The US did not invent China...China was Captialist before America was settled by the Europeans, those Europeans you seem to dislike so much. The socialist revolution was a result of the abuse by the captialist in China...of course you will defend that the British had economic interest in selling opium to the Chinese after the Chinese government outlawed the sale..Kissenger did not do anything but set up the relationships to make himself a millionaire as a consultant to businesses wishing to do business in China..he is and always has been an well-educated whore. Chinese do appreciate those types. The corruption of Western governments is the primary problem and until some distance is achieved between big business, banking and government the same problems will continue. The US will not be isolated from all of this and as in many countries the bill for the corruption is only now being placed on the table.
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To cool_brush_work (141):
Just noted your last few words...
"someone willing to speak up for ordinary people against EU 'big-Business/big-Government'!"
But tell me again what is so wrong about big-business and big-government? You do understand that our prosperity and technological prowess relies largely to global mega corporations and big governments that work with huge efficiencies and knowledge bases due to economies of scale and division work to achieve optimum output from minimum input.
Big-business, big-governments, give me a break, you wouldn't want to live in a world where they wouldn't exists.
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@ #141 cool-brush-work
I agree to you, there should be more democratic instruments inside EU, however, some comments to your claims:
- There is REPRESENTATION at any stage of the EU CITIZENS' opinions, views etc. as to how much money and how it's spent. There IS a European parliament (and OUR representatives! We elected them!), and through our votes for national governments we have control over institutions like the commission. I agree, it's not perfect yet. Yet! Not completely, but this is the point, isn't it? Wales has no complete representation of it's citizens' opinions in the UK, just as Bavaria has non in Germany, Provence in France... So what's the point?
I fear, most of your points and criticism are addressed by this statement... We, democratically, elect the European Parliament, and we, by electing our national parliaments, elect the governments that represent us in the commission. Agreed, there could be some more democracy, but only, if the Nations refrain from keeping all of their national rights...?! So what is the point? If you'd like Europe to be more democratic, than accept to give up some pieces of national sovereignty, if you don't, there is no chance for Europe to become more democratic, very simple 1+1=2 calculus.
Ash
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Um, I spoke to an ex-director friend of mine who lives in France and asked if anybody there knows where the 500Billion euro has come from as it seemed to me to an urgent printing job. It seems in France it is called virtual money, i.e. imagination. It also was his opinion that this agreement could possibly be an attempt by Sarko to ensure that if France defaults it is once again saved by the rest of the EU,
ps my friend is a Belgian francophone.
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Ashkar - very sensible and good comment #144. William Hague will be an interesting figure in European Politics. Interesting.
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@138. At 7:44pm on 11 May 2010, St_John
The money that banks give out as loans is not money they have, or even investors money. It is money based on the promise that a person who took out a loan will pay that loan.
Here is a simple example how money is created and why investors money plays very little role in the whole banking system:
1) bank a, deposits 1000 at the central bank (bank of England). Now the bank can issue loans about 9 times that amount
2) customer a goes to bank a, borrows 9000 to buy a car. Customer a signs a promise to pay back the bank 9000 + interest, say 10000
3) bank deposits 10000 promise at the central bank (bank of England). Now the bank can issue loans about 9 times that amount, i.e. 100000
That is the magic of banking and it is all legal!
So your money and my money have really very little to do with banking the people that will loose money are not som uch the depositors but the owners.
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@143. At 8:52pm on 11 May 2010, Jukka Rohila
As much as I don't agree with CBW anti-EU views, his fear/dislike of big-business/big-government should not be thrown out.
Big business does not create innovation (copies or buys small business with ideas), does not spread wealth, big-government same as big-business kills off inovation.
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@132. At 5:59pm on 11 May 2010, Nik,
As crazy as some of your ideas maybe, they do merit thoughts. You keep going on about EU defence and have a valid point, I undestand the EU theory of soft power and all that. But having a common defence mean a lot more than just arms, it means that in order to have a common army, you have just one line of command and all the structures that go with it. If a solder from Germany was serving in Romania or Greece or the UK after they finished their service they would not feel so muc us and them. If a Spanish unit was serving with a Latvian unit they would end up understanding eachother better.
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ChrisArta
"Big business does not create innovation (copies or buys small business with ideas), does not spread wealth, big-government same as big-business kills off inovation."
I think Steve Jobs would like to disagree.
And I, and a couple of million others, too.
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william hague foreign secetary Mr Anti EU lol william go and take the powers back
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Gheryando
I know that Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, etc. would disagree! But then NetScape & Mozilla & Linux & many more would agree with me.
Hundreds of small or medium size brewries in Belgium would also agree with me but I suspect the largest one would disagree!
NASA & and big aircraft manufacturers are not the ones that build the first spacecraft to take tourists to space.
Big-business are good at copying ideas and marketing them but not at innovation
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Love it
William Hague will be on a hiding up to nothing when he takes on the EU. I will crack open a beer when he is sent scurrying away with his phobic tail between his legs.
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J_R
Re #143
'What is so wrong with big-Government/Business..'?
Erm, I think the World Economic Recession of the last 2 years just about sums it up.
Even without that I was writing and do insist now the EU is entirely anti-Democratic and all of its institutions are designed for and implement policies to assist the venal & often greed-drive/corrupt interests of 'big-Government/big-Business'.
You may prefer that ultra-Capitalist system to Democratic Representation, Democratic Accountability & Democratic Responsibility, but many Citizens do not.
Generations over centuries gave everything to achieve Government of the People by the People for the People. NOTHING about the present EU suggests it has the faintest intention of following that Democratic tradítion and as the utterly silent, totally ignored, contemptuously side-lined MEPs have shown over the last 5 to 6 months of the EUro/Greek financial crisis not 1 of them even knows what a 'PARLIAMENT' ELECTED BY CITIZENS IS ACTUALLY SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT!
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ChrisArta
Re #149
And if the Armies of the EU-NATO got off their fat, idle & in some cases totally cowardly rears and did their full duty in Afghanistan they wouldn't be regarded with scorn by UK, USA, Canadian, ANZAC, Danish Armed Forces & could actually march around any Nation feeling they had done something credible!
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112 Homer Simpson writes
"You really should learn more ecnomics, a subject your nation's educational system doesn't pay much attention to or put much priority on evidently"
Well you could say the same about Homer's knowledge of history. First he attributes the quote 'Apres moi le deluge' to Louis XVI, then XIV when it should be Louis XV and the ladies with the knitting needles didn't appear until long after his death. Then he goes on to say about the EU symbol of the coins and flag:
"Well I think it is a parody of the US, a laughable copy of the US. Just look at the symbol of its currency with two lines through it just like the US dollar. Look at its flag with five pointed stars on a blue background just like the American flag. But have no fear, it will not end up like the US because it just can't, it's not made of the same stuff."
Of course we all know that is was the US which copied both its money symbols and flag from Europe. The word 'dollar' comes from 'thaler', the currency of the then Spanish led Holy Roman Empire and the sign from the Spanish coat of arms representing the Pillars of Hercules. The euro symbol has nothing to do with the dollar as it represents the Greek letter Epsilon, the first letter of the word Europe in recognition of the Greek origin of our wonderful European civilisation and the two lines are meant to represent the stability of the currency, whereas the original Stars and Stripes was a copy of the British East India flag. Can you wonder Homer that we often mock the ignorance of so many of your fellow citizens?
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155. cool_brush_work
Here, here...............
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oeichler wrote @114
Greeks will never change as long as they believe this myth that they have been the victims for over 2000 years...
Greeks will change from being what? They dont believe they are victims any more then any other peoples do.
Clearly the germans feel they are victims in this Greek debt problem. Thats my point Before the germans and anyone else talks up the hardworking germans who show such integrity compared to the "cheating" Greeks and go on and on about the possibility of Greeks defaulting on the LOANS they will be receiving, perhaps the germans can pay their debts to Greece for the death and destruction they caused. However they choose not to pay. I wander how many billions in real terms this equates too. and you talk about percentage terms. Pathetic.
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Ashkar
Re #144
An EU Parliament of 770+ dummies over the last 6 months.
They were elected by less than 43% of the EU Citizens.
An EU Commission in which not 1 Commissioner questioned the elite's negotiation 'methods' or the 'deals': Methods & Deals let me remind You that were announced every 4 weeks over those 5 months as being the resolution of the Crisis and yet not 1 MEP or Commissioner thought fit to question what was going on as each 'end of the crisis' deal fell by the way-side!?
That's some Democratic process you've been admiring!
Show the consultation with the Electorate? There has been a World recession and for 6 months EUrope's Finances have been in turmoil: Show the supra-National EU or National Leadership that consulted its Citizens about this 'rescue'?
I can name the Bankers & Business Execs who were in Brussels & Frankfurt with the Politicians when the 'deals' were being made: You can find on the net lists of 'bog' 'important' people consulted - - show me the Greek Citizens, the Germans, Irish etc. asked for their opinion on how all those Taxes were going to be raised & shared amongst the rich & powerful?
With alittle research I'm sure I can give You the address of a Greek Citizen who cannot now afford a vist to the Doctor, but I'm damned if I can point to 1 Greek, French, British, German, Italian... millionaire whose had give up their Yacht or South of France holiday villa!
Don't try the typical 'pro-EU' con-trick of discussing what is 'wrong' with Nation's constitutions: Show us what is so good about the EU systems that make it better for Citizens in such a crisis? If the ordinary Citizen is being victimised by EU policy don't say that is alright because it happens at National level too!
You cannot, because it isn't, and because above all else the EU is designed to act entirely in the interests of 'big-Business/big-Government': The EU is unresponsive to Citizens because it actually doesn't care what they think and that essentially is its anti-Democratic core.
If all that the EU is offering is a larger version of the 'You elected us now keep quiet until we next need your votes' approach of Political thought process then please do not try to suggest that is in anyway an improvement on National Democracy.
National Parliaments are elected, but none were consulted on these deals that came & went with laughable regularity! National Parliaments may select the Government Ministers that You claim to represent the Citizens, but if they do not consult the Citizens on a crisis as great as this one and instead follow unquestioning the single policy of the EU-Brussels then what Democracy is there!?
As for the Brussels Parliament: Your MEP Parliament will never be forced to resign, never respond to Citizen disquiet etc. because the MEPs do NOT REPRESENT ANY CONSTITUENTS - - they represent a Political elite - - an elite attuned primarily to retaining authority and its vested interests and cetainly not in the concerns of ordinary Citizens.
I fear You completely misunderstand the meaning and intent of the EU: I fear You don't realise the 'democracy' all Citizens are gradually allowing this supra-National EU to remove. Citizen Rights & Responsibilities You will only realise were useful to You when You no longer can put them into effect.
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"What british eurosceptics are looking for is either nationalistic bullshit, or rather dangerously imperialistic in the core." (starofthesouth, 100)
One of the most prominent sources of nationalistic bullshit and dangerous imperialism is the EU. I think you'll find that eurosceptics (british [sic] and otherwise) are opposed to that.
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"Euprisoner - Stop whining about your silly referendum. If it was REALLY that important to your compatriots they would have voted UKIP. Well, they didn't. Tough luck. Find a new raison d'etre..." (Gheryando, 111)
Firstly, I don't think UKIP were offering a referendum. And almost a million people did vote UKIP - despite Britain's FPTP system that discourages votes for the smaller parties.
Secondly, please see the reference below for some statistics on how many of Euprisoner's (and my) compatriots would like to be consulted on matters EU:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/7949104.stm
Thirdly, the arrogant and anti-democratic attitude of the EU and its supporters (of which your comments are an example) only go to reinforce euroscepticism in the UK.
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@ChrisArta #152
I think you are correct on this point. The decline of the importance of big business in innovation is documented here, based a study of prize winning innovations over a period of several decades. It clearly shows that big business is now about big money, and not anymore about new ideas.
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153. At 11:37pm on 11 May 2010, phoenix wrote:
"Love it
William Hague will be on a hiding up to nothing when he takes on the EU. I will crack open a beer when he is sent scurrying away with his phobic tail between his legs."
EUpris: Hague should not be "taking on the EU." We should be leaving. Unfortunately, under the new government, we will not be leaving. But we will be leaving one day.
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149. At 10:24pm on 11 May 2010, ChrisArta
EUpris: Read up on Premysl!
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144. At 9:26pm on 11 May 2010, ashkar
EUpris: It is undemocratic because it exists. We were promised a referendum. I DEMAND that we get that referendum.
DEMAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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@159 cool_brush_work
"Generations over centuries gave everything to achieve Government of the People by the People for the People. NOTHING about the present EU suggests it has the faintest intention of following that Democratic tradítion and as the utterly silent, totally ignored, contemptuously side-lined MEPs have shown over the last 5 to 6 months of the EUro/Greek financial crisis not 1 of them even knows what a 'PARLIAMENT' ELECTED BY CITIZENS IS ACTUALLY SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT!"
I don`t know about your country, but in Germany there has been (and is still ongoing) shift away from democracy.
The parties select who is they let accede and for the most part, the voters will never know what those people stand for. You make your cross for the party.
There are no restrictions on politicians, the parliament is the institution to decide on their own income and benefits and rest assured this kind of topic is one where they all agree.
And what happened in Britain with some voters who were denied their RIGHT TO VOTE?
Anyway, I agree with your posting for the most part, just wanted to point out that there is no need to restrict it to the EU.
That would give the impression that voters actually have an impact on politics within their respective nations.
European democracy as a whole is in a crisis.
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111. At 3:45pm on 11 May 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"
Euprisoner - Stop whining about your silly referendum. ..."
If it was silly, I would stop commenting on it. It isn't silly and I don't intend to do you or other anti-democratic people the favour of stopping.
I haven't got the time to answer the rest of your comment.
By the way, I am not a liar and you ought to know that by now.
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108. At 3:32pm on 11 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII
EUpris: I hope you are right.
It is certainly worse than bad, "exaggerated" fiction.
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ghost;
"of course you will defend that the British had economic interest in selling opium to the Chinese after the Chinese government outlawed the sale.."
Why would I defend the British for this or on any other matter? I have said and repeat that IMO Britain was the most piratical nation in all history, the crimes of their imperial empire an atrocity that went on for centuries and on which the sun never set. China was a victim of it, so were the American colonists. China was freed from imperialism when the US defeated Japan. Japan had replaced the British as the invading nation that occupied and exploited China.
"Kissenger did not do anything but set up the relationships to make himself a millionaire as a consultant to businesses wishing to do business in China..he is and always has been an well-educated whore."
You can say that but without Kissinger and Nixon, China would be today where it was in 1973, a country without industry, without enough food, isolated from the world, and with no hope at all for the future. The change came about because of the conscious decisions Kissinger and Nixon made and the actions they took to integrate China into the world and to promote its modernization.
"Chinese do appreciate those types. The corruption of Western governments is the primary problem and until some distance is achieved between big business, banking and government the same problems will continue."
China has more than its share of corruption, In fact it is among the most corrupt places on earth. Every imaginable crime has been committed by Chinese people and the Chinese government in China and covered up by corruption. This includes the poisoning of milk with adulterating chemicals to make them appear to have higher protien content resulting in the poisoning of countless Chinese children, allowing the manufacture of phoney articles from items as trivial as women's fashion handbags to life and death items such as medicines and aircraft parts, the sale of human organs harvested from political prisoners for sale in the west, the sale of babies to westerners for adoption because they are girls and therefore are unwanted, the stealing of peasant land to give to land developers for large projects, the unsafe operation of coal mines (seems to be an international problem but especially so in China) and so on and so on. When the crime attracts enough attention, the corrupt perpetrators are sometimes executed but most times it goes unpunished.
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101. At 2:57pm on 11 May 2010, oeichler wrote:
"to EUprisoner209456731
...
Get used to it..."
EUpris: NO!
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here's the EU flag
http://ces.in.th/images/eu-m.gif
here are some early American flags;
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=early+american+flag+picture&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=MxPqS9GyO4H7lwebhZT6Cg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQsAQwAA
if the link breaks, cut and paste the following in after www.
google.com/images?hl=en&q=early+american+flag+picture&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=MxPqS9GyO4H7lwebhZT6Cg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQsAQwAA
here's one in particular.
http://www.bcps.org/offices/lis/models/loyalists/images/colonial%20flag.jpg
Europe is not particularly original or immaginative. What happened to the stripes, they left out the stripes.
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#171
One of the stars disappeared as well. The flag was originally designed by the Council of Europe, and as such the CoE holds the copyright for the flag. It is said that the designer was inspired by the Book of Revelation, 12:1, which predates the US of A (see Wikipedia on Circle of Stars). Please do your homework!
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There's a small rodent that keeps running around on my computer screen. Anyone got a virtual trap I can use to nab him?
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@164. At 03:06am on 12 May 2010, EUprisoner209456731
EUpris,
Why? Different set up altogether to what I describe.
Anyhow I prefer "the good solder Sveijk" :)
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#171
Would this be the very original US flag which is merely a Grand Union flag with the Jack replaced with Stars when your colonial hissy-fit started? How convenient of you to decide to post the Betsy Ross one.
http://www.flagetiquette.us/images/Grand_Union_Flag.png
"is considered the first flag of the United States and was in use from late 1775 until mid 1777" " In one of Washington's letters he referred to it as the "Great Union Flag" and it is most commonly called the Grand Union today"
Although the stripes you refer to clearly represent the American colonies (why would they be in the EU flag anyway??), it is interesting to note the Washington family's coat of arms:
http://americanheraldry.org/pages/uploads/President/Wash-mid.jpg
Oh dear Elmer.
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CornwallCoastPath
You are right. I should have said, Vote LiBDem as those will give the referendum. How silly of me.
EUpris, You ARE a liar. Since 2002 bank transfers within the eurozone are the same price as doing it in your home country. So are ATM withdrawals. It does cost more, though, for a Briton in the Eurozone and viceversa.
Hague as FM. I initially thought Clegg might do that but now I understand that its crucial for him to be at home and have the same information as Cameron. Looking very forward to Hague's first Euromeeting.
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@MA-II
Oh dear, I can lend you my mousetrap, but will have to take out a CDS (C for cat). Your friend Kissinger's friend Deng knew about cats (any colour will do). You could have asked WebAlice earlier, but I'm afraid it is too late now. Maybe you should become a self-reliant American engineer after-all.
Please follow the link at #162, since it shows the real strength of the USA research system, as well as a comment on the relation between current 'market fundamentalism' and the real economy of innovative small businesses. It may help change your tune...
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MA II
Your post 44 on IKEA having no chance against Walmart. Is this the Walmart that abandoned its German operations because it couldn't make money in such a competitive market?
Nik
We have a defence union and it's called NATO. Greece and Turkey are both Members. The EU will not become an defence union until Ireland feels happy about a defence union with the UK: not any time soon.
EU Pris
As others have said, you were promised a referendum, but by your own political system not the EU. Westminster is to blame for the fact you did not get one. The EU could not legally organise a referendum in the UK without Westminster agreeing. You should be posting this stuff on a UK politics blog, not a Europe one.
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136. At 7:18pm on 11 May 2010, Gheryando wrote:
Can you please stop calling him Jeffrey! Its a futile attempt at making him seem distant from the "real greeks" when he, in fact, is right now the best example of you lot.
Well there is no point in not calling him Jeffrey, that is his name after all, its not something that was invented to mock him. Its printed right there on his US Passport.
I am not sure if he is distant from the Greek people, but I would want him to only have a Greek citizenship and get rid of his American one as well as his US passport. That is the least he could do.
By the way, how would Americans feel if they had a Mexican-born President whose first language was Spanish (remember the Obama thing that still goes on)? How would Germans feel with a Russian-born Chancellor whose first language was Russian. Hell, how would the British feel if their PM was born in France and didn't learn English up until he was 12 years old? I never voted for this guy, I am just not sure where his true loyalties really are and that is what many people in Greece think too. It may just be due to perception, but he didn't do anything to make things better (like get rid of his US Citizenship/Passport).
And regarding the "best example of you lot" comment, this guy walked out when the previous goverment wanted to vote the same measures he voted a week ago (someone posted it above), talk about hypocricy. I have never been such a hypocrit in my life, guess I am a better example of "us lot"...
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136. At 7:18pm on 11 May 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"""""Can you please stop calling him Jeffrey! Its a futile attempt at making him seem distant from the "real greeks" when he, in fact, is right now the best example of you lot."""""
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Giorgakis Jeffrey Papandreou was born in Minesota, US as a US citizen from 2 US citizen parents one of half-Greek ancestry. His official name stated in the US archives - as given by his parents - is Jeffrey Papandreou. Giorgos was given much later, cos you cannot sell "Jeffrey" easily in politics back in Greece obviously. He lived most of his life between US and Sweden where he lived and studied while he learnt Greek not from parents (his father being too busy) but by a teacher, Greek is a foreign language to him - still his way of talking does not come out natural after so many years in Greece (well... when you come as an adult...). When came to Greece as an adult in the 80s he almost directly took ministerial positions, just like that, for the "welcome".
He is far from representing Greeks. He has been voted in the past initially by his fathers' circle of friends (you know... the ones receiving the party gifts etc.), then he got voted as his party's leader in 2004 "against all odds" in a strange twist of internal-party proceedings and while even months earlier the vast majority of his party were against him considering him to be incapable, treacherous and above all a non-Greek who has absolutely no contact with what is going on in the country.
NOT GREEK.
A US citizen, citizen of the world:
Jeffrey Papandreou - very recently, just some years ago - has himself declared that he is not interested at all in the "small problems of little Greece" and that he sees the global picture, wishing to work for... an international government. I have to state here that this is not at all about any Alex-Jones-like anti-globalisation rhetorics and such... these are the exact sayings of Jeffrey. The kid (as he was known back in the 80s) is not interested in Greece, why should he? Give him a reason to be. His role is to sell out the future of Greece like his treacherous father and his maybe-treacherous/maybe-complete victim to British grandfather did : Grandfather came to Greece in late 1944 from Egypt (where he vacationed next to British being instructed) and he participated in lighting up the civil war. Father came in Greece from US in the 1960s and directly got into ministerial positions in his fathers' government and he is one main responsible for the political upheaval that led to dictatorship (as pointed out even by US low scale agents who of course ignored Papandreou was a US agent - yet they too had suspicions! - I have given you reports and papers in the past on that). He came back from Sweden again to Greece to found PASOK socialist party ruling from 1981 to 1989, completely destroying not only the economy but also the societal structure of the country (he is the main responsible for Greece's current financial state). And then Jeffrey...
You will wonder how on earth Greeks have been manipulated into having these people on top. Well you have to be in Greece to understand this. Up to 1990 (and down to the basics, even up to today) Greeks still played in the division lines of the Greek civil war of 1945... and whoever rules each of the divisions.
But while fully responsible, are Greeks the only nation manipulated out there to condamn them? Let the innocent throw the first stone then.
Put it good to your mind: Jeffrey is Jeffrey, nothing else. Call him Giorgakis (little George) if you want. But it will change nothing:
I will repeat some points of his work in this first 7 months of his rule:
1) Freezing all accords with Russians on the gas pipeline (Russia-Bulgaria-Greece) that may bring in cheap Russian gas
2) Getting started with a joke-of-a-pipeline between Greece & Bulgaria for the import of overly expensive Saoudi liquified gas
3) Freezing all initial accords for the extensive leasing of a number of Greek ports to Chinese that would bring in huge Chinese investments in the country
4) Freezing of all talks with Russians for the leasing of Greek ports.
5) Establishment of state-run Organism of Ports that continuous the same overly corrupt system of the local labour-mafias (of workers paid salaries of 120,000 euros net etc.) as a means to inhibit any more future offers from Chinese or Russians
6) Giving the citizenship to 200,000 (i.e. in reality anything between 400,000 and 600,000 people) illegal immigrants whose quasi-totality are either full/part-time working in the black market or simply most of the time unemployed, thus adding a logistic/financial nightmare, let alone other more sinister considerations (rigging the elections is only one issue as the vast majority of them will be voting PASOK!).
7) Going on with the re-shuffling of regions, a costly restructuring plan in itself, that will merely add on top more costly structures in a country that... alone has the size of a region and which will further incapacitate the country's ability to stand again on its feet.
Really! Does it sound to you that the above is the work of a PM who runs a country in a severe financial crisis like that?
Hell no! He has been chosen to kick start the fire on the anyway ready dry wood, then put more oil in the fire and then in-between all that panick pass as quickly as possible the above measures. And hell, did not even mention about what he plans to do for Greece's national sovereignty...
Greece IS condamned. Its monetary woes are really the last thing Greeks have to worry now and that must not surprise you. If you ever cared about knowing more (and I do not expect you of course, myself I am not informed on Slovenia, Canada or Tanzania either...) you would find lots of info on the above and why things like that are happening like that!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
178. At 08:48am on 12 May 2010, Tim wrote:
""""MA II
Your post 44 on IKEA having no chance against Walmart. Is this the Walmart that abandoned its German operations because it couldn't make money in such a competitive market?""""
Indeed. Despite rhetorics about competitiveness, US firms find it very hard to compete against European ones which are far more relative to the wolrds' markets than the US one. I hardly find anything American in the markets of the european countries I move around apart Macdonalts and Coca-cola to put it typically.
""""Nik
We have a defence union and it's called NATO. Greece and Turkey are both Members. The EU will not become an defence union until Ireland feels happy about a defence union with the UK: not any time soon."""""
NATO means nothing. In 1955 NATO Turkey attacked in pongrom Greeks of Konstantinople killing scores of them and breaking 1000s of properties kicking out the 250,000 strong community of the country while their properties were all stolen. In 1964 NATO Turkey prepared an invasion of Cyprus against NATO Greek forces on Cyprus who were sent there to prevent such a case. In 1966 the same, but they cancelled their invasion for understanding of being unable to make one. In 1967 NATO US pushed for a dictatorship on NATO Greece, then the dictator would not do all the tricks the US wanted thus in 1973 the US pushed for an as-if leftish popular rebellion to change the dictator and the new one made the US tricks retiring the bulk of the Greek army in Cyprus incapacitating the defenses of the island (in some camps, even rifle armories were locked or ammunition stocks retrieved!). However still there were some remnants of the Greek force, NATO force. NATO Turkey attacked these remaining NATO Greek forces and NATO Turkey assasinated NATO Greek POWs (about 3000 Greek Cypriots and NATO Greek soldiers). There is proof that NATO British and NATO US forces aided even militarily by airplane bombing of certain NATO Greek sites and how about the famous incident of the NATO Turkish plane hit by a Greek hitman whose NATO pilot used the ejection parachute, then arrested only to be found he was a NATO English-speaking pilot (he was actually a half-caste black pilot!)?
How about that? You close your eyes?
So how about NATO Turkey invading NATO (and EU) Greek airspace? How about NATO Turkish planes fly armed inside NATO Greek airspace occasionally firing missiles against NATO Greek airplanes? Don't you know what happened in 1996 on the Imia islands?
One must be really very naif to speak of NATO as a guarantee of peace, stability and soverignty. NATO, EU all these things mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Put it good to your mind. When it is true that "today you in tomorrow you find yourself out", imagine what may happen when war happens when you are already inside NATO and being under attack by another NATO country.
""""EU Pris
As others have said, you were promised a referendum, but by your own political system not the EU. Westminster is to blame for the fact you did not get one. The EU could not legally organise a referendum in the UK without Westminster agreeing. You should be posting this stuff on a UK politics blog, not a Europe one.""""
EUpris refuses to understand that it is exactly those conservative political forces in Britain that openly despise the EU who are the last who want to get out of the EU. I have already explained the role of UK in the EU which is simply to be inside, watch and control its evolution. As things are, it is actually the rest of EU the one that is actually wishing most this UK referendum to take place!!!
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@Euprisoner
Tories got 36% of popular votes
Lib Dems did not tell their electorate before election that they would enter into coalition with Tories.
Cameron APPOINTED PM by QEII (who elected her)
Hague APPOINTED Foreign Secretary
Does your parliament has anything to say?
Democracy comes from the Greek word dimokratia and means democracy but also republic and majority (rule). You have neither of the three.
Don't give lessons in democracy to the rest of Europe!!!
P.S. I do hope you get your referendum soon, and be assured that the rest of Europe will support your NO.
Brussels will come up with a very short, neutral, BushII-style slogan during the campaign: YOU ARE WITH US OR YOU ARE AGAINST US
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#179, #180
Obama's first appointment was his chief of staff, who fought in the Israeli army. In the Netherlands, there were/are government people with a double passport (Dutch/Maroccan). So this situation is not unheard of.
What is particular to Greece, apart from its current financial situation, is the presence of political clans over several generations (i.e. Papandreou, Pangalos, Karamanlis, Bakoyiannis, Rallis, etc.). So change that: it probably means changing the educational system, so as to eliminate the head start people might get from their family background. I.e. no little games with year class presidents, etc. in select private schools. This requires grass root political participation instead of endless discussions in coffee shops or lengthy posts on foreign websites.
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#88 ChrisArta
I am sorry , you are wrong . The EU has two speeds , the UK is stationary .
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116. At 4:35pm on 11 May 2010, oeichler wrote:
Maybe Europe could learn a lot from the UK, as they have a...
political union
monetary union
fiscal union
military union
of 4 "home nations"
Maybe Euprisoner could explain to us how they got there...
through a referendum...?
**********
We got here through deals between the elites. Deals which cause bad feeling and hatred to this day. Deals which could not be made to stick without a lot of blood.
All so promising for the EU... The elites are just banking on it not being their blood on the ground.
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I look forward to the northern Europeans providing the external audit and control on southern national governments which have continually falsified the numbers and basically treated the northerners as a soft touch for ultra soft loans to fund spendthrift policies. Devaluation of local currencies prior to the Euro was only a temporary fix. It did not address any of the real issues, if anything it compounded the problems as the governments/countries concerned could simply carry on as before in their corrupt spendthrift ways. Introducing the Euro is beginning to force such governments to make the hard and necessary decisions vide the Baltic States.
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183. At 10:04am on 12 May 2010, oeichler wrote:
"@Euprisoner
...
Don't give lessons in democracy to the rest of Europe!!! ..."
EUpris: I am going to continue to have my say. The British system is, IMUO, flawed. That does not alter the fact that we were promised a referendum which we did not get.
The "EU" is a sick, wasteful, disgusting, arrogant, dangerous, megalomaniac organisation.
If you are fed up with me and people like me, then start campaigning for the UK to be thrown out of the "EU" or for us to get the referendum we were promised.
I am glad I am not in the same room as you. I have had Germans screaming at me for criticising the "EU" very mildly. I can scream back in German and have on occasion done so. I prefer not to.
Only a minority of Germans are like you. About 77% of Germans wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
I am assuming that you are German and are Herr O. Eichler. Even if you are not, the above comments still stand.
German "EU"-lovers are getting worried about "Euroscepticism". They should start listening.
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171. At 03:37am on 12 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"here's the EU flag
...
. What happened to the stripes, they left out the stripes."
EUpris: They did a stripe-tease to the music of Beethoven's wotsit. Unfortunastely they did not sing my new words to it.
P.S. Beethoven was British. It is not really Beet Hoven but Beeth Oven. Beeth is the old spelling of the word Beet as in sugar beet. A temporary oven would be built in the corner of a field to bake the beets before extracting the sugar. One of Beethoven's ancestors probably came from the East of England.
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174. At 06:06am on 12 May 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
'...
Anyhow I prefer "the good solder Sveijk" '
EUpris: Good book. Expect unwilling conscripts to do a Sveijk in the "EU"-Army.
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@EUprisoner209456731
As Gheryando said before:
Transfer fees in the eurozone are the same as sending money within a eurozone country
The Germans are ripped off through their banking system anyway, they pay for transactions and ATM usage within their country, so they pay the same amount for ATM usage in other Euro countries or cross-border transactions.
In other countries these services are free, so they are also free when using ATMs or doing cross-border Euro transactions, e.g. Ireland even transfer of Euro funds on to UK Euro account is free...and it takes only 1-3 days
I did it, I'm still doing it...
So, stop talking about things you apparently do not understand....
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"With these vast funds available there will be a temptation for countries to draw back from the austerity programmes."
Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense! The funds are for loans! Loans with extremely severe conditions. If any country drew back on their austerity program and then required one of these loans they would have the IMF taking over which means a blunt axe is taken to public spending the savings are achieved from the areas where they can be achieved quickest. Only after they agree to that would they get this bailout.
In short ending up in receipt of one of these type of loans is political suicide.
The threat of IMF loans(which what these are just with guarenteed EU funding) is what the Irish government uses to push through savings, not a way to avoid them.
"Spain, for one, has shown itself reluctant to pursue further cuts."
No doubt you are now aware of this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/mobile/business/10109275.stm?rdr
Can we expect an admission of a mistake on this matter in your next post?
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@185. At 11:03am on 12 May 2010, Huaimek
:)))
true :)
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I have no idea why Walmart did poorly against IKEA in Germany, it could be many things such as location, the way the local manager ran the store, I have no way to know. However, as most know Walmart is a vast chain of stores in America and it is practically a factory outlet for China Inc. IKEA has one store in my region (about 35 miles away) and having been in it two or three times, I can say that from this American's point of view, I don't like the the merchanse I saw or its prices and I wasn't particularly attacted to the store itself. Overpriced cheap Scandanavian flimsy knockdown junk it seems to me. BTW my bedroom and dining room furniture as well as many bookcases are all good solid modern Scandanavian teak, among my favorite wood (not bought at Walmart either.) If I want cheap knockdown furniture or other inexpensive household items, I have far better choices.
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#186
What would happen, today, if any one of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were offered a referendum on independence from the UK? Who would return the highest "Yes" vote?
My guess is England.
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#189 EUprisoner209456731
And Mr. Hague is Dutch...
Ignorance is the reason for the lack of referendums
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177. At 08:24am on 12 May 2010, smroet wrote:
@MA-II
Oh dear, I can lend you my mousetrap, but will have to take out a CDS (C for cat). Your friend Kissinger's friend Deng knew about cats (any colour will do). You could have asked WebAlice earlier, but I'm afraid it is too late now. Maybe you should become a self-reliant American engineer after-all.
________________________
:o)
And,
"Night. Silence. A fridge door opens, and out of it falls out an over-fed Mouse.
Sausasges tied around his neck in rings, in one front paw - a piece of cheddar, in the other paw - a good chunk of bacon. The Mouse heavily walks to the hole in the wall, entrance to his burrow.
In front of the tiny hole in the wall - there is a tiny mouse-trap - and in it - a tiny dry piece of cheese.
The Mouse surveys the view thoughtfully and says:
"Like children, really!"
:o)))))))
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@194 MarcusAureliusII
Not sure why you compare Walmart and IKEA, as they are not competitors at all, at least nor here in Europe.
Walmart did everything wrong in Germany, in the same way when American companies go abroad with their ignorance of local customs and conditions, trying to force their American way of business.
Next time you might want to compare Walmart to Tesco and in the UK Tesco wins
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ChrisArta wrote: Anyhow I prefer "the good soldier Sveijk" :)
Hasek's good soldier Shveyk is en epitome of a latter-day "European soldier". And of future 'unified' European armed forces. :)
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@ 195 commonsense_expressway
probably Essex, they a renowned for being BLOND
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"One of Beethoven's ancestors probably came from the East of England."
On the serious note: Ludwig's family was of Dutch origin.
And that's why in Bonn area many locals still pronouce his surname in a correct, Dutch way: VAN BetHOffen.
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#195
Sort of "agreed", but the outcome is not mine to predict. Matter of fact is, if the British people wishes a referendum, and if they're allowed to demand it by their constitution, then: so be it.
We all deserve what we vote for.
Ash
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MA @194
IKEA's manager Russia has just published a book type "How I did business in Russia" :o))))))) type "mystery wrapped into Russia into enigma" etc aaaah
Very popular, and is being translated into Russian as well. I read selected chapters in newspapers (all are having fun), with commentary of the Russian authorities, particular men, he mentiones in his book.
Like, IKEA man would complain ab local city governor who didn't want to give him permission to rent the land, to start a store, and that the local governor doesn't care for well-being of his city dwellers, who could be both employed, and be able to shop, and the city will get a new tax collected.
The local governor would comment that that IKEA chap traded like mad, wanted to pay copecks for the rent of the land piece that costs roubles, and -
"Imagine we both drive to IKEA tempo quarters in our city. Mind it - I come to him to discuss business, don't make him waiting by my door in the city council building, but come to his place. So we survey the land plot in question together and then drive to his place.
I go in the car with the ? that rotating light, blue? on the roof, he goes in his car behind me. Other cars in the road give us the way.
When we arrive to the parking lot, he tells me that the next time he will cut my car and go in front of me, if I my driver will dare to switch off that rotating light on my car roof again.
That he is a democrat and can not go through the city with other cars giving him the way.
Imagine! The kind of a character I had to agree with! Hair standing on my head again once I remember how we did the deal after all :o))))))))))
and all :o))))))))))))"
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@188 EUprisoner209456731
Germany is not Switzerland, there are no referendums foreseen in the German constitution, as far as I remember, they still have a parliamentary system.
Don't get to excited about my user name, you can shout as much and as loud in German as you want, I won't probably understand you down here in Greece.
Speaking of user name...
E = Europe originating from the Greek "Europi", nice woman, you can see her on the Greek 2 Euro coin (noooo, it is not a Spanish female bull fighter)
U = Union originating from the Old French
Prisoner originating from the Old French
At the end, you are a REAL European.
Could you write something, for a change, in English...!?
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I like looking at IKEA, various displays and arrangements, for different rooms, in their stores. All looks very beautiful but is alas not appliccable in normal life.
Majoriy of Russians have a natural purchase limit of 2 rooms in a multi-apartment building in a city or a town. There is no space to buy IKEA things and stuff them in :o(
If we lived in houses, to be furnished, like abroad - then yes. I understand you need many pieces of things to furniture a house.
With their smaller things - the problem is the only cheap things are plastic.
While a plant pot has to be clay; kitchen ware has to be heavy metal; furniture ought to be wood, and not pressed together from wood chips.
So all is very beautiful, as a whole - but try to find one piece that you can really buy.
And they are not flexible, keep to un-Russian ideas of bed linen sets and shapes of pillow cases and height of the divans and backs of the chairs, and, like - in everything - it's kind of alien approach.
I focus in IKEA on meatballs with cranberry sauce in their cafe :o) and other small food stuffs sold in their mini-food-supermarket, as a part of the store.
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Re184. At 10:10am on 12 May 2010, smroet wrote:
""""#179, #180
Obama's first appointment was his chief of staff, who fought in the Israeli army. In the Netherlands, there were/are government people with a double passport (Dutch/Maroccan). So this situation is not unheard of.""""
As you might have already imagined, it is not in reality their ancestry itself the main problem - get me Castro, Chavez or an Ahmadinedjad and all their families there if you wish but I have to have guarantees that they will do the job correctly. The problem is that due to their overalbackground these people come in this poor little country on a specific mission to rule for the account of others, following strict orders which if they do not follow they are "out" (and these things have happened repeatedly in the past, e.g. Karamanlis the ancient, Papandreou the grandfather etc.) - their younger generation is much more obedient to the masterplan and thus much more dangerous than the old school.
""""What is particular to Greece, apart from its current financial situation, is the presence of political clans over several generations (i.e. Papandreou, Pangalos, Karamanlis, Bakoyiannis, Rallis, etc.).""""
You might find that Rallis (ND, right wing) and Pangalos (PASOK, left wing) are families that are from the old-school pro-right wing, pro-royalist, pro-British, pro-German families... pro-British & pro-German? Oh yes! Both Rallis' and Pangalos' fathers were Nazi-collaborators (and Pangalos dared speak of WWII, he who was raised with Wermacht milk and Gestapo chocolates, when his cocitizens died of hunger!!!). You will be amazed to find out the % of ancient German collaborators in the Greek parliament, in Greece the country with inarguably the smallest % of German-collaborationism in all of Nazi/Fascist controlled countries of WWII (easily explained if you take into consideration those that the British had chosen to become their collaborators…)!!!!
“”””So change that: it probably means changing the educational system, so as to eliminate the head start people might get from their family background.””””
Too late. The opposite has already happened since the 1980s. Already 2 generations of Greeks are intellectually virtually impaired. The solution is rather home-teaching or communities setting their own schools.
“”””I.e. no little games with year class presidents, etc. in select private schools.””””
In Greece that does not hold true, at least not in that way. What holds true since the revolution of 1821 is Greeks or supposed Greeks arriving from Anglosaxonogermanoslavic countries after having been instructed and given clear orders.
“””” This requires grass root political participation instead of endless discussions in coffee shops or lengthy posts on foreign websites.””””
Grassroot political participation among Greeks right now in the absence of the possibility of having any referendum, actually favours increasingly at almost a % of a democratic majority (!) a junta to be honest. Do not blame them for that and do not stay in the appearances. You have to know the whole picture to understand this: right now Greece IS ruled under DICTATORSHIP, with the ruling party having won in 2000 with rigging the elections by giving false citizenships to irrelevant foreigners (and defacto doing it to unknown extend in all elections of 2004 and 2007 and 2009!!!!) and the only quick remedy is indeed a violent upturn of the situation where a certain number of people (including Papandreou family, Karamanlis family, Mitsotakis-Bakoyanni family) will be wiped out (by ANY means). But even that scenario is not good since – and Greeks are well aware of that – since it rather belongs to past times and it will be used to isolate Greece and kick it out of what is called “international community” (by the way, a most fascist term I have ever heard the last 10 years…) thus leaving it vulnerable to a military attack that will CERTAINLY follow.
Do not get it wrong, I describe you the situation. It is as bad as above. What I personally want is the establishment of referendums for all major issues the country faces right now (see below by order of importance – the first 2 are equally important being a threat to the very soveignty of the country):
- Referendum on the issue of Aegean threat from Turkey
- Referendum on the issue FYROM
- Referendum on the immigration policy and the granting of citizenship to foreign people
- Referendum on the exploitation of oil and other resources inside the country
- Referendum on gas pipeline project, Southstream or Nabucco?… to bucco or Nabucco?
- Referendum on leasing of Greek ports to Chinese, Russians, Brazilians or Congolese…
- Referendum on measures to reduce the deficit and eliminate this crisis
- Referendum on taking further loans
- Referendum on our relationship with EU from now on: In, Out or the British middlelands?
And so on … after having voted on the above one can do other referendums like the dual US or Russia from now on, or neutral (under risk of being attacked by both?), but these are for the expert referendumers… hehe…
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199. At 3:02pm on 12 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
""""ChrisArta wrote: Anyhow I prefer "the good soldier Sveijk" :)
Hasek's good soldier Shveyk is en epitome of a latter-day "European soldier". And of future 'unified' European armed forces. :)""""
N'importe quoi... "good soldier Sveijk" was written for the situation inside the Austrohungarian Imperial army where the different nationalities had different national aspirations. Why would a Hungarian go to war against Russia because one stupid prince was murdered in Serajevo by a Bosnian young man?
However in today's world, there is no nationally aspired war (not that there were often any national wars either as both WWII and WWI were not such anyway...). So what is the difference for a Polish soldier sent in Afganistan... as a US vassal or being sent as part of a European force? Does it make any difference? Well actually yes, it makes these men feel a bit less vassals: if the EU goes as a vassal of the US, these men can attribute all fault to lukewarm EU, if the EU goes alone, then even better, they are not vassals, why would they want to go there as part of their own armies to feel like vassals and do all the petty jobs (often the dangerous ones) for the Americans?
What enemies does Europe faces? America? Russia? International terrorism (fabricated enemy anyway)? Same for all Europeans, even better facing it both inside an EU and seperately than just alone. You do not need a lot to make an EU army. The national armies of the countries are more than enough. Just a nice small treaty saying that an attack against 1 EU country means an attack against all EU countries and that while the attacked EU country will face of directly the enemy, some long range missiles will fly over, say from France, to hit directly the offensive country. That is all what is needed, nothing else. It is the simplest of things, the strict minimum.
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oi, oi, oi;
"Next time you might want to compare Walmart to Tesco and in the UK Tesco wins"
A couple of years ago Tesco reportedly opened a store in the Los Angeles area. Never saw it first hand myself but reports from Americans were that it had the feel of being a third world type enterprise. I think there may have been a report about it on BBC. Didn't even compare to our warehouse type stores like Costco and BJs. Walmart has its own warehouse chain called Sam's Club. Sam Wall is known as one of the most successful retailers in the world. He recently opened a store near me and I can see why he's so successful. Much of my grocery shopping is now done there although I still visit the regular supermarkets occasionally. I also do a lot of my food shopping at the warehouse stores. Their prices are often but not always better than Walmart's.
WA;
If I want cheaply made do it yourself plastic laminated furniture I can do far better at a place like K-Mart than at IKEA. I still don't know why the store in Elizabeth NJ near Newark Airport remains open. Horrible location, crazy stupid prices, mostly undesirable junk. Carrefour, the French retailer tried one out on Long Island some years ago and I think they went belly up. European retailing in the US is generally not successful. Cutthroat competition here and access to every source of merchandise in the world by the larger chains makes the Europeans pretty much uncompetitive in the US.
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Walmart failed in Germany, because they apparently thought that Germany is the 52nd state of the United States and they could just crash in and take over the market.
People over here refused Walmart`s corporate culture (even curts ruled against their internal privacy-policy) and considered it as some kind of us-market imperialism.
Regarding IKEA and K-Mart, the latter sports unimpressive business figures, while IKEA is booming worldwide.
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@208 MarcusAureliusII
we know everything is big and bigger in America, but it doesn't make it better, just because you have chains that cover 300 million customers.
You just don't understand European mentality, I rather should say continental-European mentality.
Yes, there are shopping malls and big supermarket chains like Carrefour outside the big towns, but, in general, people prefer shopping in the city centre, that is not like in most American cities only an office district.
People live there, shop there, having a break, sipping a coffee, having lunch or dinner outside under the sky surrounded by nice architecture, instead of inside, in down to 65* F air-conditioned rooms...
You just don't have these towns like Paris, Rome, Barcelona, Florence, etc...
There is a certain finesse and savoir-vivre about shopping and adjunct activities, an American will never understand.
You have your malls and warehouse type stores, we have our beautiful historical city centres with boutiques, cafés, restaurants, bars, fruit & vegetable markets, etc...
Gives you an idea why Walmart is not very successful in continental-Europe.
Similar with Starbucks, their one-fits-all-approach doesn't work in café-mad countries like France, Italy or Greece.
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@208 MarcusAureliusII
we know everything is big and bigger in America, but it doesn't make it better, just because you have chains that cover 300 million customers.
You just don't understand European mentality, I rather should say continental-European mentality.
When one sees one of your malls, one have seen them all. No individualism.
One-fits-it-all approach, like IKEA
Like in the UK, one high street looks like the other, chains after chains.
Yes, there are shopping malls in continental-Europe, and big supermarket chains like Carrefour outside the big towns, but, in general, people prefer shopping in the city centre, that is not like in most American cities only an office district.
People live there, shop there, having a break, sipping a coffee, having lunch or dinner outside under the sky surrounded by nice architecture, instead of inside, in down to 65* F air-conditioned rooms...
You just don't have these towns like Paris, Rome, Barcelona, Florence, etc...
There is a certain finesse and savoir-vivre about shopping and adjunct activities, an American will never understand.
You have your malls and warehouse type stores, we have our beautiful historical city centres with boutiques, cafés, restaurants, bars, fruit & vegetable markets, etc...
Gives you an idea why Walmart is not very successful in continental-Europe.
Similar with Starbucks, their one-fits-all-approach doesn't work in café-mad countries like France, Italy or Greece.
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@WA #197
How sweet!
Reminds me (non-sequitur) of what happened to us in perestroika time. We came back from Mineralnye Vody to Moscow, but had forgotten to book the evening dinner in the hotel. The management was adamant, and refused to serve us. There was nothing left. After making a huge fuss with them, and threatening to go higher up, they asked us to wait, argued between them, and came back with a 'solution' of sorts. There is nothing left to eat, since you did not book! It has been decided, we can only offer you caviar and champagne. Could you possibly accept this ?
Who were we to refuse, so we grudgingly accepted...
Such things never happen in 'western civilisation'. Keep up the poetic side of live.
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oi oi oi
Veni, Vidi, Vici.
I've seen it, I've lived it, you can keep it. I prefer my way of life, you prefer yours. Every American should experience it once and I don't mean as a tourist. It is quite an education. I'm not going into it again for the umteenth time, I'm sure to the relief of some. I'll just say I was glad when I was finally back home for good.
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smroet, :o)))
What have you been doing in the Mineral Waters? Caucasus, after all.
Sipping those warm disgusting springs to treat gastritis? :o)))
Snow-walking mountain peaks to suntan and take pictures?
I've been there once only. Did both :o)
Plus, surely, the Lermontov duel place.
I think the list of attractions there ends on these 3 points.
________
Yes, the famous "unobtrusive service", I am an old and wise Alice and also remember the times :o)
By extraordinary persistence, acquaintance and sheer luck only - one could get inside a restaurant in the good old Sov. times :o)
Restaurants were to be, and fight tooth and nail against servicing customers. They were not for money born :o)))), like most of us.
Just, how to say, to be. Purely symbolically.
I've been to many :o)))), in my young years. Parents divorced and father tried to charm me by means possible, which normally included taking me to a restaurant. Normally it looked like we sit there alone in a huge hall, the only table served, and I was indeed feeling very VIP :o)
Then, yrs later, post Perestroyka, I was offered a first job at a first foreign-managed hotel I think in Russia. I didn't figure out for what I apply, actually Mum made me to, she heard an announcement on radio that they are recruiting, with key demands "never worked in a single Russian company" :o)))))) and "speaks English".
I remember I wrote an excellent application, on a quarter of an A4 paper torn to 4 pices by me on a knee, in pencil, passing by a post-office, in the street. My future foreign comrades in arms in that hotel kept it as a relic for years later and cried many a fond tear over it :o)))))
They said they were charmed by the business style - not an extra word.
But, like, :o)))) name, surname, age, nationality, address, telephone, diploma, written via ; and no silly hello-s or good-bye-s :o))))) , and very economical about paper usage :o))))
Said saw a business lady at once :o)))))
Personally I think they were charmed by my photo, as the radio ad said - "clip a photo". Well, my photo was definitely bigger than the letter of application - full size, toes to huge hat, I was posing on a Black Sea beach and thought I look great in the Japanese kimono. I got hold of one, in Vladivostok previously, and sported the long weavy gown - not a proper silk kimono, say, in the style - whenever I felt like it.
It looked more like a bag, down to the ground.
When I quit the hotel thing several years later, I collected my memorabilia, the personal file, and over that letter was written a conclusion of the interviewers, a scribble, of which I am proud to this day.
"Charming, positive, alert, smart"
:o)))))))))))))
I don't think I will live to see a better one; after all we all are young only once :o(
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Why I remembered - it's because that hotel first offered me a job as a trainee for a restaurant manager, and they did a crucial mistake, after which I left in indignation, and our ways parted for several months.
The F&B mngr who was interviewing me called me "service-minded".
I understood what he means, but didn't like it.
He was saying like, "Come on, it's a good job, in half a year you'll be managing a restaurant, this is very quick, this is outrageously quick, just be patient a bit, think about it. I think you'll do just fine "you are service-minded".
That was it :o) The limits of my patience with the mad foreigner :o)
The thing is while they were interviewing me, I was interviewing them, and figured out a job I want in that hotel, after seeing several department managers employing - I fancied a marketing job
(knowing nil about marketing :o))))), must admit).
So we parted; and I was feeling offended by their epithets on tops :o), and they employed a knowledgable person for marketing. Then another. :o)
In 3 months that hotel was down on its knees :o))))) imploring me to hop in back again - which I wish to note I used to my benefit, dotting i-s :o))) and crossing t-s :o))))) - negotiated a contract, the very first line of which read "work start 11am unless a business emergency."
Which is still the key line for me in any employment contract, I am a very devoted owl.
:o)))))))))))))
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I think I should write a book finally, one of these days "Meeting the West".
:o))))
Our answer to Chamberlain, that is, to that IKEA manager pathetic composition :o))))
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It's the thing is we were brought up "all people are equal", and how is it one is "servicing" the other. ?
What does the other think about himself/herself?! The navel of the world?
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"Westminster is to blame for the fact you did not get [a referendum]" (Tim, 178)
If you're referring to the promised referendum on the European Constitution, the blame in fact lies with the EU, in the form of the European Council (the EU heads of government meeting). After the Dutch "no" vote in June 2005, all the members of the European Council (including Tony Blair) voted to kill the European Constitution (at least nominally; it of course rose from the ashes as the Lisbon Treaty). The effect of this was to prevent the implementation of Labour's 2005 manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on the Constitution. The Council's decision had to be unanimous - all it would have taken for the Constitution to remain alive would have been for Tony Blair or any other of the heads of government to have voted accordingly; none did so. In other words an EU meeting unanimously intervened to corrupt the democratic process in Britain.
So while you're right to say "The EU could not legally organise a referendum in the UK without Westminster agreeing", it's not right to say that the EU could not legally stop a referendum that had already been promised. It did so in June 2005.
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@WA
It was decided that we'd go there to see people and equipment not far away (4-5 hours drive through nowhere). Our 'host' was offered to visit the 'West' at the same time as our planned visit to him, and solved his schedule problem by having us tour the Caucasus area. Such things were possible then, no 'economics', just Leninism. How huge is Russia! Much emptier than USA, more like Canada.
Drank some water from the Kuban. Had cold 'meat' and 'yoghurt' for lunch (ate little), dinner (ate more of same), and breakfast (finished it at last). Hence dinner back in Moscow was OK. Good memories. Yes, do write your book!
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Alice's Restaurant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice's_Restaurant
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"KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?"
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Excepting Alice
Hmm, Marcus, how subversive:-). Made my day.
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Re: 194
MA -I'm genuinely curious! Tell us more about the Scandanavian teak that adorns your home.
As someone else here would say, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#s214 and 215 WebAliceinwonderland
Like other correspondents here , I so enjoyed reading your posts .
Of course , employers do like a Curriculum Vitae or Resumé that is brief , precise and to the point . Your decriptions and your large photo made me laugh so much . I can imagine they were fascinated and charmed by your frankness and originality .
I have a young , very bright , American nephew whose Russian grandparents migrated to the USA . When he had finished colledge he travelled around doing a job here and there . He eventually settled for a while as a hospital porter and decided he would like to be a doctor . His parents summoned him to come home and apply for a place at university . I was present when he wrote his application to the university . He wrote the Principal a very laid back , take it or leave letter , that was both charming and extremely funny ; he was accepted on the strength of it .
Personality counts very strongly , especially in a hotel .
I am sure I am only one of many commenters on these Blogs , who are charmed and fascinated by your comments and would like to know you , who you really are . As with these comments we get occasional glimpses .
Last weekend I watched all the 65th Victory Parade in Moscow on my RT satellite channel . I enjoyed it so much and seeing the Welsh Guards from Britain too . I am so sorry to hear about the mine explosions !
I watch Russian TV a lot , in part because it is in English , but it covers world news , business and so many interesting features about Russia . I get the impression that President Medvedev is doing a good job in opening Russia up to friendly relations with the West .
Yes , you should write a book !
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What some anti-American Balkan jingoists don't seem to understand is that a Polish soldier in Afghanistan knows who he's fighting and what he's defending.
Ask the same Polish soldier whether he'd be willing to spill his blood for EUSSR and he'll simply laugh.
BTW. the same goes for a British soldier.
[other European countries' soldiers in Afghanistan don't fight there:
merely put out an appearance.]
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Alice still at the hotel?
"Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Doesn't_Live_Here_Anymore
Never saw the film, was never particularly thrilled with the TV show. Kinda blah.
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217. WebAliceinwonderland
Some pigs are more equal than others.
On another subject. A couple of months back when you went missing. I think you had lost your best friend (the cat). Maybe a little boyfriend trouble or what not. Anyway a lot of folks were anxious including myself. I googled to find a way to send a message to Vlad. Lo and behold I found a site where I could send a message. Mind you I had been into the fruit of the vine and was feeling no pain.
I can't remember all I said, what with the fruit and stuff. The gist of the comments were that you were the best advertisement for Russia there was. For them to make sure that you stayed healthy and had a good working computer at all time. If anything was to happen to you, I'd be over to whup some ass shortly.
Alice the "belle of the blog". Alice is a nice name and seems to fit your personality but I wonder what your real name is. There is a Russian gymnast who competed in many Olympics and very attractive. Her name is Svetlana Boginskaya. Now that's a name! My second favorite is the British actor, Basil Rathbone.
Have a nice day.
P.S. Vlad never wrote me back :(
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@MarcusA - Usually I agree a fair amount with many of our concepts and ideas. Not always with how you present them, but with the underlying 'core' of the idea. In this instance, I disagree strongly with you in portraying President Obama as a tax and spend 'leftist'.
So you are saying that TARP was Obama's idea? You are saying that the vast hole the Bush administration left in it's wake is Obama's fault? Recall that in 8 years Bush took us from a surplus into a deep deficit before completely falling down on the job in financial compliance and regulation this is a Republican administration you are talking about remember. You are saying that in 15 months after taking on the mantle of a USA in more dire straits than any time since Hoover he should have already turned everything around, reduced our expenditures from the Bush mess, and created growth and new jobs? Really? In 15 months? I'll tell you what. How about we wait until the end of 2011? If things are looking up economically, but Obama is still focused on 'tax and spend' without pushing hard for at a minimum a balanced budget and at best some debt reduction I'll 'walk at your side' when you talk about how bad a job he is doing and how much he is indebting our country. Until the man is given a fair chance to make a difference you are just parroting the 'party of NO' line. If you really want to look at where our 'hook' was set by China you should be looking at Clinton... not Obama. Also the 'stage was set' for the financial meltdown by Clinton's repeal of Glass/Steagal, not by Obama. *shrug* Be a hater all you want but I suggest you be honest about it.
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MaudDib,
now, that's very kind of you. :o)
Yes, I was very close to destruction. And, given the amount of effort to accommodate cat in the dacha (which isn't up to perfection - yet!)(masochistic approach, lasting pleasure) - stayed in that interesting condition for quite some time.
It's water, whenever you dig 10cm - becomes a pond. Low shore of the Gulf of Finland definitely decided to drown :o), only roof tops will stay soon from the dacha village :o)))) I took 5 trips with a trolley on wheels, for 1-2km :o(, to the Gulf, to trolley to the dacha plot fine sand from the dunes.
In short, the task is un-achievable theoretically, because there isn't a "good" place for the cat anywhere on Earth to say nothing of the pathetic dacha but in a live condition and by my side - so I got quite stuck. with the hopeless enterprise. As many times you re-locate the box - nothing gets better! But this downed on me only after about a month of trying :o( At which point the colonel's family, neighbours to the right - became seriously worried for my mental condition :o)))), watching the activities over the fence.
oh.
MaudDib, writing to "Vlad" I think is not very helpful :o) Though, come to think about it, who should answer for the well-being of the Russia subjects? Tsars of all calibres of course!
And I understand your line of thought, you don't know any other names in Russia to address to, in case of anything.
Thank you.
When everything is alright, overall, I think I'd prefer a low profile and no publicity :o)))), just in case. To be able to keep a free hand.
Alice is my name used in the household and among friends and acquaintance. To the degree I even have it on old business cards, as couple of employers also fell for it :o)))))
My parents wanted to register me as Alice when I was born and had to be named somehow :o)))), inspired by Alice in Wonderland exactly. (my first book as well, awarded to me long before I could read, to be used as a guide-book :o)))), for general life orientation :o))))
But mum was refused in that enterprise by authorities, in the baby registration office, as was strongly recommended it's a bad, bad idea - what's a strange capitalistic name for a good Soviet child.
Was strongly recommended to think of better options. :o))))
So she came up with a better option, and surely I am no Alice by passport.
However she persisted in her delusion re what is my name, and kept calling me Alice at home.
So I am for a long time in two minds re what is my name :o))), kind of got used to both. For formal occasions and for un-formal occasions.
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As I said. I quite like Alice.
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MaudDib, still, you've got an acute ?
say, "feeling is believing" :o)))
I've got a , say, a distant relative in-house :o))) - Svetlana.
Who is often abbreviated as "Mother S" :o)))))
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Huaimek, since you were into compliments of "frankness and originality",
perhaps I should add that my approach to CV composition :o)))) was caused by 2 things, mainly
1. Back then I never heard the very word "CV"
2. I was sure I'll make mistakes in grammar and with the English articles - that's why went for concise approach to the job application composition. writing all via ;
:o))))
Nobody was ever writing job applications in the USSR. And we never saw a newspaper ad advertising a job. I can't think , by now, how employment took place ? - without anyone advertising and anyone applying?
I suppose it was all organised economy, centrally planned somehow. You graduate from a place - and they send you to work. If you don't like the options offered - you look yourself, via acquainatnces.
Certainly one could go to any eneterprise and apply oneself, but it was all done physically, how to say - you enter the doors and ask to be shown the way to the equivalent of the modern HR department. Then simply talk and that's it.
How did people apply for jobs in other cities - I am at a loss to think.
?
We don't migrate much, basically stay where you are. So, not many needed it, in the first place.
?
Ah, I guess I know. You'd ask your acquantance :o)))), in another town - to go to the enterprise of your desire , on your behalf - and advertise you!
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MaudDib, you may be additionally pleased to know :o))), that for my first job interview I wore bright red overall - a part of the US troops female wardrobe, the ones stationed back then in the Foroyar islands.
It was always a problem with clothes in the USSR; you had to obtain things from most unusual places. And often ended up with un-orthodox business attire :o))))
Yes, I think I should write eventually that book. :o)
17 yrs ago it'd be called "Meeting the West".
Now it's more likeley to be "... and coming back :o))))
No, this won't sell. I'll have to keep to the original title.
But then it won't be truthful! No great literature. just , for sale :o(
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Certainly the flaws that brought Europe to this point have not been addressed. They have monetary union without fiscal union. Already there are EU Commissioners calling for fiscal powers to be pooled. President Van Rompuy said: "We can't have a monetary union at the end without some form of economic and political union, and that is our big task for the coming weeks and the coming months.
Rompuy is not president of EU. He is chairman of the European Council/Council of Ministers.
And peoples are not in favor of more integration, nor are we in favor of economic and political union. Only a very small minority consisting of rabid EU federalists and politicians are in favor.
And EU politburo kommissars (commissioners) are not elected and have no mandate so who are they to call for fiscal union?
Doesn't it ever stop? How do we stop this? We seem to be able to vote in whatever direction we want but the whole thing never stops, they never listen.
12.DiscoStu_d wrote: LOL. The answer is always... more EUrope! Good times: more europe; Bad times: more europe. I love it! The EU federalism parade has not slowed and this train is sailing full steam ahead! All aboard?
Don't ya just love the arrogance of the minority that are EU federalists? Not only do they keep referring to the odious and undemocratic EU as 'Europe' (which it is not) but also whatever problem/question/case comes by, the answer/solution is always 'more EU'.
But beware, the EU wasn't set up so undemocratic by chance, it was deliberate so they could ignore what we the majority want. Referendums? They'll either frantically bypass them or demand they are rerun again and again until the 'desired' answer is given. As usual.
And the worst thing, they the EU federalists always act high and mighty as if they are morally superior, which they are not since they are against democracy and want to have their way completely.
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Does anyone really read Nik's posts? They hurt my eyes!
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This question may be silly, but in the worst case we end up where the US and the UK already are for a long time don't we?
If the state has too high debts the money saving population pays for it in the form of inflation.
Thinking about it inflation is actually a very social way of paying for community debts as rich people with more money will lose more to devaluation as those with little to no money saved at all.
A stupid thing though is that again Germany and France (and probably others) refuse to let the EU take a look at their finances - if they hadn't done that the last time Greece couldn't have cheated.
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"Does anyone really read Nik's posts? They hurt my eyes!"
Sure; I do. Sometimes, diagonally :o)))) - but I won't skip them.
You see, Russia didn't lend Greece any money this time -
therefore isn't annoyed - like many here are :o))) -
missing money gone PLUS lecturing on top.
Someone said "grief over lost money is the only true real human grief" :o)))
I think this combination, of un-pleasant truths, and fiscal concerns, and recurring sense of worry (what/who - will be next) - makes the general layout un-favourite for Nik. Folks hedgehog out in needles at the very word "Greece" and are not in the mood to lend an attentive ear :o))))) , to put it softly :o)))) - to what Nik says.
Why would you worry I won't know. Turkey, as I gather, didn't lend Greece any money either? With monetary things out of your discussions, it must be simply that you don't agree with what Nik says.
Overall, as I noticed, he says "Greece doesn't like Turkey."
And you say - "No, Turkey loves Greece therefore Greece also loves Turkey".
With all respect, I think Nik speaks for Greece better than you do.
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Btw Marcus as you seem to be as uninformed as always.
Read up how german supermarket chains (ALDI) are doing in the US and what a complete failure was produced by Walmart when they tried to enter Germany.
Oh and please save your "i've seen one from the outside once and it seemed undesirable to me" for someone who actually cares - facts are facts and your opinion is of no importance at all.
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Re234: Bora... do yourself a favour and go apologise for some 2-3 genocides first before complaining about your eyes (go visit an optician if you have any problems counting the 0s in the numbers related).
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224. At 11:56am on 13 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
""""What some anti-American Balkan jingoists don't seem to understand is that a Polish soldier in Afghanistan knows who he's fighting and what he's defending."""""
I pass by your personal accusation on me, but the latter part of your tragic phrase above is simply hilarious! Knows hat it defends... ehehjehehehe... yes! yes!.. fights for Poland, greatest country (after Kazakstan) in the world!!! ... ahahahahaha....no! I guess he fights against those Uzbekis that Borat calls despicable! he defends the whole owrld from Taliban!!! Ahahahahahahahahahahaha...
really consider yourself for stand-up comedy. You have a future.
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I will never cease to be amazed by the amount of ignorance that rules over this world. (I will wait with impatience the response of commonsense on the other thread... let me measure the number of lines of his response (it will be few if any and with no point at all)). One of the usual. I have done this experiment in other forums the last years that I need not need be a prophet to predict his inability to answer.
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#240
Yes you are right about the ignorance in the world - and to prove the point I have decided not to even read any of the latest posts you made on the "retreat" blog. Sorry, they must have taken you ages to write. I cant believe you did that ehejjiehhheeheekkkee!!!!hehehsssjjjeeehheee!!ahahaahahhaayes!yes!!hahaseehehe
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For all of you who feel compelled to imitate laughter on the blog.
I suggest using only two "he's" as in "hehe". When one uses more than that I start to visualize the wicked witch of the East/West.(Can't remember which direction. I guess it depends whose telling the tale. I know what Nik would say.) Another thought is to use the technique used in cartons. You know "#$!!!&&#?/?##".
Another thing. Why is it always the wicked witches that go "hehehehehe"? The good witches never say that. I wonder if riding a broom has anything to do with it.
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Really MaudDib
I was in the hospital 20 yrs ago for a stroke, (i bounced back thank goodness) but with bp pills.
Next to me in a bed was a guy with severe diabetes. He was street smart but not that nice...a regular guy...
But in total denial...and he was scared witless. Its very scary in hospital (Uk talk) and he would laugh and laugh and laugh and it would go on too long I was slightly intimidated but he was ok, I was young and paranoid cuz of the stroke--looked witless then with one eyelid droopy and bad speech.
But that laughter is insanity, you are right...not so good.
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#127 Hear, Hear! Another rational comment, I like reading this person's comments in amongst the dross and the puerile!Hope to see more like this and I hope to reach this standard myself one day.
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Re242: Ehehe.... alright Maudib. How about shorter answers too. Like my text 240 answering in advance 241?
Fair enough for Commonsense not wishing to respond directly in the other thread (and I say this in a positive manner). I never claimed to know well the history of El Salvador, Boutan or Latvia but it happens that I know very well the history of my region to the point that someone else wishing to answer me back has to be really knowledgeable (and if he is he most probably will have to accept the facts as they are by all means!).
Now, from events within regional histories like that of S.E. Europe (place of start of Crimean war and WWII), one can drag a lot of points and conclusions.
In my case, Britain has been the main responsible for WWII coming in S.E. Europe by repeatedly pushing Italy and then Germany to go there, then by murdering local political leaders and paying the rise of the communists ensuring local civil wars. The events ended up in more than 2 million dead and formed also the basis of the Jugoslav wars of 1990s as well as the basis for future wars too.
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Re245
"""...place of start of Crimean war and WWII...
WWI of course. In the WWII it has been rather a "diversion front" that served as an excuse for Britain to better deploy their imperialist policy they would not be able to deploy had there been these countries neutral and with governships like those of Metaxas that despised foreign intervention.
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I'm sorry for being so thick. This is all pretty difficult to understand. I realise that the general public give the banks money to continue operating. Now it looks like banks will give governments money to continue operating?? Is that correct? Then we give governments money to pay banks again?? IS that right?
I would appreciate it very much if the BBC used some of the money they receive from the general public to explain to us some basic stuff.
Where does money come from, how's it created and why does it have value?
Where does the money go in the end because people don't have enough and governments don't have enough and banks don't have enough and industry don't have enough and the war machine don't have enough etc. So where does it all end up?
Are there other ways of doing it that benefit humans, cos if so then I would suggest that humans would be interested in it?
Again, sorry if I'm just a bit thick, however it just seems to me, and it's just a hunch mind you, that this system doesn't work. (If the term work means serve the public interest). OTherwise please redefine work for me?
THanks
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Where does the money go in the end because people don't have enough and governments don't have enough and banks don't have enough and industry don't have enough and the war machine don't have enough etc. So where does it all end up?
Are there other ways of doing it that benefit humans, cos if so then I would suggest that humans would be interested in it?
:o)
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Oh great commment Nik, "greatest nation after Kazikstan"
But, remember "Borat?"
It was to criticize America, not Kazikstan...
to make Americans look bad (honestly bad----not... fiction bad)
Its the genius movie of our current era ...comedy wise....
And ITS BRITISH..sorry, but you have the greatest sense of humor so you are not offended.:)
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All the money goes to the China Vault...I think...Did you know there is a glut of Dollars
all owned by China...
That is why they were sounding out an alternative reserve currency...just trying to see if their money ..dollars...were WORTH ANYTHING...
they ARE clever, fiendishly so.
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The President of the EU, Jose Manuel Barrosso, was quoted as saying "We need to have a stronger union in economic policy, and a stronger compliance by member states.
Where is sovereignty if we submit ourselves to Euro bureaucratic?
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249. At 9:54pm on 16 May 2010, David wrote:
"""Oh great commment Nik, "greatest nation after Kazikstan"
But, remember "Borat?"
It was to criticize America, not Kazikstan...
to make Americans look bad (honestly bad----not... fiction bad)
Its the genius movie of our current era ...comedy wise....
And ITS BRITISH..sorry, but you have the greatest sense of humor so you are not offended.:)"""
Sasha Baron Coehn is British of Polish-Jewish origins. Very talented man and a real comedian but in his latest "Bruno" movie he did a terrible blunder - I hardly can call it blunder, it was a crime: he claimed to had included a scene with a "real Palestinian terrorist" who was in fact a Palestinian christian who had the bad luck to be mistakenly accused as terrorist and got imprisoned for 2 years in an Israeli prison but finally his innocence was proved and he regained his freedom. As he was a tourist guide by profession, he was not surprised when he was called by a journalist for some documentary on the area, little did he know that the journalist would be one little devil ocmedian and so he was perplexed when Sasha asked him about "Bin Laden being Santa Claus" and he asked to have the question translated but even that, in the movie was falsely translated as a terrorist getting angry!
Nontheless, Sasha had the chance to redeem himself by asking his permission to use the scene, explaining him the comic basis behind the scene (perhaps a way to make the case of this poor man known...) and of course arrange to pay him some typical in these cases royaulties but Sasha not only used the material just like that but also continued to insist that he interviewed really a real dangerous terrorist. I used to love Sasha for his unique comedy style, even if it was on a thin line exploiting unaware people who were lied into believing he was a journalist but see... there is a difference in doing a little prank to 2-3 US feminist ladies and exploiting a man that lost 2 years of his life in prison for something he had never commited and accuse him again of it. This is not comedy anymore. It is not funny, it is immoral.
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Unsurprisingly it was actually mostly the Jewish people that were even more angry at Sasha since he ridiculed them badly despite himself being open about his Jewish ancestry - obviously he is not that religious anyway. Character Bruno, coming down to holy places dressed as orthodox Jew and then chased by local people might had been hilarious but it was indeed provoking the religious sentiment of people.
I do admit still laughing at his pranks but really I won't be going to his next movie. Tricking people (like calling Hamas houmous and asking the Jewish "what is your problem with this food?") its ok, its in the comedy but not when he accuses immorally defenseless people, not when he hits the religious heart of people.
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Life imitates art once again.
From the BBC News, May 17, 2010:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8688612.stm
Let's have another chorus:
"Oh, Lord,
won't you buy me,
A Mercedes Benz..."
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Hated Bruno--no laughs...kept waiting n waiting..n waiting
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Re254: Anyway... why do you care InterestedForeigner? Are you Greek? Of course not. Are you an EU citizen? Most probably not and in case you became, i doubt you come from inside, thus still part of your family's money is elsewhere. You have not much of a basis to argue on these issues unless you have the habit to discuss on US, Russian, Chinese or Indian forums about corruption there. Tell us if you are any self-acclaimed corruption hunter, we might employ you in the fight (though I doubt you will do anything for long... not Mercedes but even a Fiat 500 will do in your case).
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At least D. Mann,
Youre not so defensive like some here. On the lookout for insult and reeducation of others ...
Can you not revel in Germany's success openly without offending wandering whiners?
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I believe that strong and united EU with free movement of trade and workforce within the union is essential if EU does not want to be run over by emerging economies. Consistent law enforcement across all EU members is a must, in order to defend the EU against all sorts of organized crime. Any weak points will be immediately exploited and used as gateway to other EU countries. During the current economic crisis, it would be great to take lessons from the Marshall Plan designed for European recovery after the WW2. The Marshall Plan had many conditions for countries which accepted it and in the difference from the current situation, it was not a charity for corporations at taxpayers' expense.
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@164 powermeerkat
"OSSIES? :)"
I`M FROM THE WEST ;)
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