Europe - the battle of ideas
I have just been in Rome to witness the latest launching of another of Europe's austerity packages.
We are getting to the point when almost every country has to have one. The Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said that the sacrifices were necessary to save the euro.
Later, in a further attempt to justify the cut-backs, he spoke of "an international speculative attack on the euro."
Confronting speculators always makes for good politics. It is also an attempt to define the narrative of this crisis.
What Europe's leaders are beginning to understand is that, over the weeks and months ahead, they will have to win the battle of ideas.
In Italy, Prime Minister Berlusconi had scarcely finished speaking before the country's largest union had called for a general strike.
In Spain, protests are planned against their austerity measures. There is debate there, too, about a general strike.
In France there is fierce resistance to what is being billed as the "mother of all reforms", the raising of the retirement age.
The unions say it is "non-negotiable". Some Greek unions are trying to organise a Europe-wide day of protests against the era of austerity.
Europe's leaders will have to explain why "austerity" is necessary.
Among all this, fundamental doubts have been raised about the future of the euro and even the European project itself.
So it is interesting to get inside the minds of the eurocrats, the keepers of the flame.
It so happened that this week the European Commission President, Jose Manuel Barroso, gave a keynote address to the Jean Monnet Conference. With the EU facing what is possibly the greatest crisis in its history here are some of his arguments.
• First, the big defence against those who argue the European idea is losing its appeal:
"Europe", Mr Barroso said, "is the greatest, and most successful, experiment and political integration in the world".
• Second, don't blame the EU, blame national politicians.
The real problem, he said, was not to be found at the European level or its institutions.
"It comes very often from narrow-minded, nationalistic, chauvinistic political leaders at the national level."
Some saw this as a scarcely-veiled attack on German Chancellor Angela Merkel who is seen by many in Brussels as having put "national interest" above "solidarity".
It is interesting how leaders who are sensitive to national politics are described as "nationalistic" and "chauvinistic".
• Third, a choice. "If the EU does not go further, it may be going back forever." Europe's officials have long clung to the idea that unless they are expanding, or integrating further, the whole project will lose momentum. In their view Europe has only one gear, and it is forwards on its journey to "ever-closer union".
• Fourth, every crisis is an opportunity. Like other officials, Mr Barroso believes the current crisis makes the case for greater integration. "We cannot have a monetary union without an economic union," he says. In his view the crisis has revealed how interdependent Europe's economies are and that the Lisbon Treaty should be used to strengthen the co-ordination and surveillance of budgetary discipline.
• Fifth, paint the critics as mainly from the English speaking world. The critics he describes as "professional pessimists". In an earlier speech he had spoken of "the intellectual glamour of pessimism". Here he said "the world is full of Cassandras. Sometimes I see in the English-speaking literature on the euro what I would call 'wishful thinking' because they expect the euro to fail."
• Finally, the nightmare the EU stands in the way of. Mr Barroso often warns of the danger of "populism". In this speech he said "there are sometimes occasions when we see populism, xenophobia, chauvinism in Europe" - raising what he sees as the spectre of chauvinism for a second time.
So in the middle of daily fire-fighting to defend the euro, there is a recognition, as Mr Barroso admits, that "we will need to win the battle of ideas".
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~50~RS~)
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You can roughly divide politicians into two when it comes to ideas. There are those (an example might be John Redwood MP) for whom the ideas are central and who engage with the public on their blog sites to win support for ideas which they believe will improve society in some way. Whether or not you agree with their ideas, one has to recognise that they display signs of neck-up activity, and are in most cases happy to let the court of public opinion decide whether the ideas they peronsify should carry the day.
Then you have this other type of politician for whom winning power is all that counts, and for whom ideas are a kind of ticket that one might need to get power in the first place, but which can rapidly be discarded afterwards. José Manuel Durão Barroso began his political carreer as a Maoist, then became a so-called Liberal when he appeared on the European scene. And when the EU Parliament were given some say in determining the presidency of the EU Commission he suddenly became a Conservative. And no doubt should the EPP majority in the EU Palrimanent be replaced by a socialist then he would suddenly re-discover his Maoist roots again.
In recent years we have seen a disturbing trend emerge as the prime ministers of Portugal and Brussels resigned from the highest democratic offices in their countries to take up more powerful positions in Brussels that are beyond the reach of any voters. This type of creature represents no voter and no real ideas for improving society. The only thing they represent is their own self-interest in the accumulation of power. We need to root this kind of politician out of the system. That will require cutting down the species' preferred habitat in Brussels from where they seek to hide from voters.
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"With the EU facing what is possibly the greatest crisis in its history here are some of his arguments.
• First, the big defence against those who argue the European idea is losing its appeal:
"Europe", Mr Barroso said, "is the greatest, and most successful, experiment and political integration in the world".
• Second, don't blame the EU, blame national politicians.
The real problem, he said, was not to be found at the European level or its institutions.
"It comes very often from narrow-minded, nationalistic, chauvinistic political leaders at the national level." "
Interesting how the EU appears to be falling apart, both economically and politically.
The old conflicts are rising again across Europe.
So much for closer integration!
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Mr Barroso admits, that "we will need to win the battle of ideas".
Presumably Mr Barroso believes the protection of the European financial sector is worth the austerity that goes with it.
The call for strikes across Europe suggests that not everyone is quite the believer that Mr Barroso would like them to be.
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The Jean Monnet Network is the best in the battle of ideas. It has exceptional expertise. It has reps from 62 countries across five continents. Therefore, it can be said with confidence that the EU is in constant receipt of independent advice about any aspect of EU functioning. It includes BEPA (the Bureau of European Policy Advisers), a body led by Jean Claude Thebaut.
José Barroso, President of the European Commission spoke about strong European institutions, including a Commission that can develop & implement policies that are in the overall interest of the EU.
Since it entered into force, the European Union has continued to take steps that increase Member States' engagement at the European level, and bind them closer & closer together, which recognizes their increasing interdependence.
He spoke about Greece, specifically mentioning the speculation against the sovereign debt of some Member States, and the fact that speculators take advantage of the high levels of debt and the lack of structural reforms. He said that some Member States - by no means just Greece - have not undertaken the structural reforms that were needed. They had not respected the Stability and Growth Pact. He maintained that the crisis demonstrated how interdependent EU economies really are, and how a Euro crisis in one Member State can affect them all. He explained that if anyone still needed proof, the recent case with the euro is a powerful, and extremely dramatic example. This underlines the need for action in the euro area by all 27 Member States of the European Union.
So what does the EU want?
First, to ensure that the Stability and Growth Pact rules for fiscal discipline are respected. Some argue against this proposal of the Commission interferes with sovereignty; whereas, the reality is any decision taken by one Member State has a direct impact on the economic policy and economic situation of all member states.
The establihsment of a 'European Semester' for economic policy coordination. Reinforcement of the Stability and Growth Pact to consider not only the macroeconomic aspects but the microeconomic aspect of the reforms. This is not about taking over Member States' tax systems. This is not about breaching national sovereignty. On the contrary, the European Semester will allow Member States and their national parliaments to benefit from an early analysis of both their budgets and their macro-economic performance. Personally, if I was a member of the EU, I would welcome this additional financial perusal. There is no intention to take financial resources away from a Member state.
The stability of the Euro is not the only concern. It’s true that the Commission sweated to avoid the financial collapse of Greece. The Commission drafted a stability program with the Greek authorities, led the call for the €110 billion loan to Greece.
For the future, without doubt the The Jean Monnet Program will provide: interpretation and ideas for the future of Europe. The euro will succeed.
As for Italy, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi won praise from Italian executives & even some opposition members for 24.9 billion euros ($30.4 billion U.S.) in budget cuts meant to help “defend the euro.” Berlusconi spoke at the annual assembly of Confindustria, Italy’s biggest business lobby, after unveiling plans to slash the ministry budgets, cut handouts to regional governments and freeze wages for state employees in a push to reduce the country’s deficit and debt.
The EU leaders set up a 750 billion-euro financial lifeline to support the region and defend the euro. This prompted Italy, Spain and Portugal to agree to additional deficit cuts. The austerity package, which some labor unions have endorsed, contains a 10% budget cut for ministries, 4.5 billion euros in reduced transfers to regional governments, a partial amnesty on illegal building, a crackdown on tax evasion and a three-year wage freeze for civil servants.
Also and finally I would like to add:
For those requiring further proof that the balance of power within the global economy is shifting away from the US, today’s surge in the markets shows evidence that China’s description as “groundless” was aboe to absolutely crush the rumor that it was questioning its stake in European holdings.Investors were so emboldened by this word “groundless”, that the the resultant buying spree lifted the Standard & Poors 500 Index back above 10,000 points. The endorsement also helped reverse the euro’s slide.
China’s support for the euro was largely responsible for a new-found optimism, but events in Europe itself also contributed as austerity programs are being introduced to cut deficits: By a margin of a single vote, Spain’s parliament approved a plan that would reduce government spending by 15 billion euros (US$18.4 billion), and then of course there’s Italy with spending cuts totaling 24 billion euros (US$37.3 billion).
In spite of speculation, in spite of some enmity from the west, the Euro will survive, especially with the Jean Monnet Network hot on the tail of proposals & changes (good or bad)- always standing ready to defend the Euro.
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"What Europe's leaders are beginning to understand is that, over the weeks and months ahead, they will have to win the battle of ideas."
That's really funny. The reality is that they lost the war a long time ago. This "battle" is much too little, much too late.
"Europe's leaders will have to explain why "austerity" is necessary."
"Among all this, fundamental doubts have been raised about the future of the euro and even the European project itself."
If they told the truth, it would be that the entire concept of a sustainable welfare state of the type Europeans consider their birthright is not possible. Such constructions must inevitably fail becaue they must compete against far more efficient societies where only the most basic necessities are provided to those who fail and the rewards for performance are handed down far less generously to the overwhelming majority of the population, especially to the vast numbers who didn't earn them. If the truth be known, they would have to admit that not only were their most fundimental assumptions, the foundation on which the European model is based, dead wrong but that they have been tellling huge lies about it for the longest time because they knew it was failing, they were among the privileged who knew what the real numbers were and where they were trending.
The sudden collapse of the Euro and the European project reminds us that in many wars that are being lost, the vast majority of the land has been taken by enemy forces while all seems quiet and normal in the capital city. Yet the war is lost far sooner and it isn't until the inevitable fall of the capital that the population there begins to understand what has been happening for a very long time. That is the situation in Europe. The end has been locked in for decades but the last throes of the welfare state has obscured the fact that all of the props under it have been eroded beyond repair. Now the entire ediface is collapsing.
Barroso is angry because Merckel will not willingly and eagerly take that last fatal step which will result in her falling on her sword for the European project. If she takes it, she will be eternally blamed by Germans for selling them out to an impossible goal that was not really in their interest and if she doesn't she will be blamed for the end of the European project that would have been saved if she had. It's one of the many dilemmas inherent in the EU concept, damned if they do, damned if they don't.
IMO the promise of China's government not to sell its Euro denominated assets now was just one more of those straws markets are grasping on to in hopes the Euro won't go over a cliff. As I understand it, China never committed to use its full foreign currency reserves to prop up the Euro come hell or high water anymore than the US did and it doesn't mean it won't change its mind at some future time if it sees the Euro's plight is hopeless.
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The EU and the national politicians who support it , ARE THE PROBLEM !
The Member states are not integrated regions of a federal state . They are sovereign national states and the people have a right to be nationalistic ; especially when national governments knowingly go against the wishes of their people .
Mrs Merkel may have committed political suicide to support the Euro ; a currency German people didn't want , to replace their Deutch Mark .
In my opinion the Euro Crisis that was foreseeable before its inception , has brought the EU to a dead halt , it is Dead in its Tracks ! There is NO going back , trying to do something different , trying to resurect a dead horse .
The EU has ploughed on on the wrong tracks for too long , refusing to listen to or accept any criticism from European people .
Why doesn't Barosso say " Dastardly British Eurosceptics ", instead of refering to English speaking people , of which there are many right across Europe .
It is time Barosso and his EU coleagues stop lying to people , the EU is not the Greatest , Most successful experiment ; in truth the political integration is yet to happen , if ever .
There is no case for political integration . The Euro is going to fail sooner rather than later . I would advise Eurozone states to revert to their former national currencies , before the Euro becomes of too little value .
Europe is not the EU nor the EU Europe . The EU should be scrapped ; the Commission , and all its petty bureaucracy is the devisive element that prevents harmonious relations between nation states across all of Europe . British people get on as well as any other nationality in respect of friendship across Europe .
Scrap the EU political , bureaucratic institution and the Euro !!! The Union of European Peoples is already a success .
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Barrosso "earlier scrutiny of the Member States' budgets in a peer review exercise will make sure governments pay more attention to respecting the rules. Some are arguing against this proposal of the Commission on the basis of the so called respect of the principle of sovereignty. It's not recognised in the simple reality".
Interesting! The so-called respect for the principle of sovereignty…..not recognized? I love it! The EU steamroller is warming up!
"A reality that decisions taken by another Member State have a direct impact on the economic policy and economic situation of all the other member states. And as the Lisbon Treaty recognises – economic policy in one member state is not just a matter of national interest, it is indeed a matter of European interest"
Much more interesting! The argument here - that what one nation does affects others and therefore by definition also europe, which the EU is guardian of- could make people very nervous in that it could be used as an argument for any number of initiatives! Slippery slope? Thin end of wedge? Muscling in?
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Jose Manuel Barroso... gave a keynote address to the Jean Monnet Conference. With the EU facing what is possibly the greatest crisis in its history here are some of his arguments.
• First, "Europe", Mr Barroso said, "is the greatest, and most successful, experiment and political integration in the world".
Just shows how out of touch the man is. The EU-elites may think it is all great, but the peoples do not share that sentiment. Apart from politicians, bureaucrats in Brussels and large companies/banks, no one has really profited.
• Second, don't blame the EU, blame national politicians. "It comes very often from narrow-minded, nationalistic, chauvinistic political leaders at the national level."
The nerve of that man. It is his side that is narrowminded, proposing 'more EU' as the answer to every single question. You cannot get more narrowminded than that. National politicians must under all circumstances put national interest first, that is what they were elected to do. But then again, what else did we expect from an unelected clown? After all, in the eyes of many EU-ites, people like me are too stupid to know what is good for us.
• Third, a choice. "If the EU does not go further, it may be going back forever." Europe's officials have long clung to the idea that unless they are expanding, or integrating further, the whole project will lose momentum. In their view Europe has only one gear, and it is forwards on its journey to "ever-closer union".
That's exactly the problem right there. They are forever stuck to the silly idea that we must continue to do what a bunch of old men agreed more than 50 years ago. What part of 'the peoples do not want more political integration' do they not get?
• Fourth, every crisis is an opportunity. Like other officials, Mr Barroso believes the current crisis makes the case for greater integration. "We cannot have a monetary union without an economic union," he says.
What he really means is fiscal union. And it is no surprise that the EU-ites are applying the usual 'beneficial crisis' strategy again. The strategy is basically this: use any crisis as an excuse to further integration. And by the way, his words ought to be reason to abolish the monetary union because we don't want fiscal union. I do not want to pay EU income tax.
• Fifth, paint the critics as mainly from the English speaking world. The critics he describes as "professional pessimists".
He would, wouldn't he? They love to cling to the idea that only the UK is against more integration, when in fact the peoples in Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Austria and a few other countries are also against more integration.
• Finally, the nightmare the EU stands in the way of. Mr Barroso often warns of the danger of "populism". In this speech he said "there are sometimes occasions when we see populism, xenophobia, chauvinism in Europe" - raising what he sees as the spectre of chauvinism for a second time.
The old scaremongering trick again'. In other words, 'no EU' would mean 'war', or at least that is what he seems to suggest. More populism is needed, and less EU-ism. We need national politicians who will put national interests ahead of Brussels interest at all times. The 20th century cases he implicitly refers to were cases where two maniacs decided to VIOLATE other countries borders and sovereignty. The EU too increasingly wants to VIOLATE national sovereignty. And in all three cases (Berlin, Moscow, Brussels) they wanted to impose a 'common' identity from above.
So in the middle of daily fire-fighting to defend the euro, there is a recognition, as Mr Barroso admits, that "we will need to win the battle of ideas".
Good luck with that if your only idea is 'more EU' in every case (the only ideology allowed in Brussels), especially with the increasing popular opposition to 'more EU'. But what Barroso means, is to convince politicians to ditch the national interests they were elected to protect, and vote for more treaties without referendums.
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Msr Barroso said, "..EUrope is the greatest and most successful experiment and political integration in the World..".
Gross exaggeration or falshoods, are easy epithet, but in this case also happen to be utterly true about the claims the EU Commission President made.
'EUrope is the greatest..': The term 'greatest' is not really condusive to any apportioning of the EU in practical terms. The EU is certainly above the normal and/or average in terms of its size both geographically & demographically, but that does not make it the greatest, merely an example of something out of the ordinary.
Its Economic-Fiscal-Geo-Political-Cultural viability are all under challenge at the present time (otherwise Msr Barroso would have been making a very different speech). Compared to previous pan-National powers (Empires) the EU does have some merits, but not so many as to be able to lay claim to some form of 'greatness'. It would not be seeking to amend the Lisbon Treaty to enforce greater integration just 6 months after its ratification if indeed the EU were on course for the Great Power status Barroso lays claim to in his address.
'most successful experiment..': A ridiculous appellation by any standard for the EU. To be 'most successful' it would have had to have achieved all its goals and not have some of its key elements on the verge of possible disintegration and requiring emergency assistance in order to be maintained.
Where is the 'success' in having to borrow monies from the IMF? To what degree is it counted a 'success' that 11 of 15 EUro-zone Nations are found to have flouted EU rules? If a 'success' is measured in terms of bigger and not better then the Schengen 'open-borders' policy would fit the test - - it is pan-EUropean (25+ Nations) - - however, as Schengen's arrangements also created conditions for and has overseen the largest increase in illegal immigration into the continent of Europe post-WW2 that sort of 'success' may leave much to be desired in the eyes of the indigenous Citizens.
An 'experiment' is surely about the only keyword that Msr Barroso may be forgiven for using: And in so doing he reveals much about the EU in its present form which totally negates much else he claimed for it. As an 'experiment' there is always 3 outcomes that may be anticipated, 1) the initial declared intentional result occurs, (2) the result is completely at variance with the initial intention, and (3) there is no significant result one way or the other.
The 'experiment' has still to find final results of Citizens' acceptance & support in the following areas: A) increasingly doing away with Democratically Elected National Legislative Assemblies and replacing them by a Centralised Policy-making core, plus,
B) the overturning of National Legislation by an UnElected EU Court whose supremacy powers deny Citizens' expressed Electoral preference and negate the authority of each National Legal system.
Such an 'experiment' with Citizens' Rights & Responsibilities earned over centuries by generations of sacrifice has yet to be completed: In other words the EUropean Union is entirely down to chance in what may be the result of its evolution.
'Political integration': This has certainly gone ahead at pace among the elite body-politic. However, the remarkable failure of Statesman-like 'leadership' across the 6, 9, 12, 15, 27 over 6 decades has led to an almost insurmountable division between supra-National Government and supra-National Citizenry. The aspirations, expectations and concerns of the EUropean Citizens simply are not recognised nor even on the same page as that of the Brussels' apparatchiks and other paraphenalia of inter-government. Among the 350,000,000+ Citizens forming the Electorate the paramount perception of the EU is not of a benevolent, inspirational integrationist movement; tragically for the EU it is an image of an overbearing, avaricious, unresponsive, self-serving entity.
Democratically the enforced integrationist steps taken by the EU have resulted so far in alienation and disillusion among that Citizenry. The declining Voter participation, continued public hostility to further expansion & evident lack of consultation between the EU Political Leadership and its Constituents being the prime examples of this failing.
That Msr Barroso, President of the Commission, chooses to speak of "successful integration" after the last 5 months of inter-Government 'nationalist' squabbling and repeated unravelling of monetary deals and not face upto the reality in his remarks just reinforces the distrust among the Citizens.
Indeed in the eyes of a growing number of Citizens, as 'integration' is the central theme of this supra-National entity, of which in practise so little has been achieved, the EU is regarded as an umitigated disaster.
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@5
“the entire concept of a sustainable welfare state of the type Europeans consider their birthright is not possible. Such constructions must inevitably fail becaue they must compete against far more efficient societies where only the most basic necessities are provided to those who fail”
A race to the bottom, eh? No, that is not what humanity should strive for. Quite the opposite, the European welfare state should be the level playing field the world aspires to achieve.
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6. At 4:15pm on 28 May 2010, Huaimek wrote:
"the Commission , and all its petty bureaucracy is the devisive element that prevents harmonious relations between nation states across all of Europe."
When were relations between nation states across all of Europe harmonious before 1945?
I must have missed something during the history lessons!
Relations are not even harmonious within nation states...
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The political chameleon that this José Manuel Durão Barroso who changes his ideas whenever it is expedient in his pursuit of power is not the type of political animal who is going to win any battle of ideas. I also doubt the value for money that the billions spent each year by the EU Commission on think-tanks and Monnet professors to propagandize on its behalf.
In one respect though Mr. Barrosso was correct in his speech to the Monnet professors. He said that the Lisbon treaty represents a victory for supra-nationalism over inter-governmentalism and i would suggest that anyone who says otherwise does not under the Lisbon treaty. It is all the more ironic then that he claims the English-speaking press are ‘professional pessimists’ about the European project, because there are only too many among the Brussels press-pack that would appear to be better propagandists for it than his Monnet professors. Take as an example an article in yesterday’s “EU Observer” by Honor Mahoney.
http://euobserver.com/9/30142
Her message is entirely at odds with that of Mr. Barrosso as she claims that the the EU Council (comprising heads of national government) is the big winner from the Lisbon treaty. Such a statement would be music to ears of any Brussels propagandist wanting to pursue ‘integration by stealth’ by downplaying the reality of a loss in power to national governments and especially national parliaments and their voters. Ms. Mahoney says there is “a relative decrease in the power of the European Commission” which is absolutely at odds with reality. The EU Commission has retained under Lisbon the monopoly on all legislative proposals at EU level, i.e.. for law superior to any other for 500 million people, and the extent of this law has been increased by the Lisbon Treaty. This means an increase in the de facto agenda-setting power of the EU Commission into numerous new policy areas. (For the same reason the power of the European Court of Justice is also increased). Ms. Mahoney does acknowledge that the power of the EU Council of Ministers is decreased relative to that of the EU Parliament , but this simply underlines that all three supranational institutions (EU Parliament, Commission and ECJ) have won an increase in power at the expense of national governments in the Council of Ministers, and especially national parliaments and voters who are the big losers.
English-language readers of tabloids might expect some partisan repoting, but we should expect better of the serious news and broadcast media. David Rennie (‘Charlemagne’) in the Economist is another who frequently reports that inter-governmentalism is on the rise in Brussels, when clearly the EU institutions operate not on mood-music but under the terms of EU treaties whose every change has increased the powers of the supranational institutions. The BBC (not least when Mark Mardell was at the helm) has an unfortunate history of inaccurate reporting on the real meaning of EU treaty changes that could not have been more helpful to the purveyors of integration of stealth.
Never-the-less i believe that despite the 2.4 billion that the EU pays on ‘Communications’ (a.k.a. propaganda) each year for think-tanks, Monnet professors, etc. and a Brussels press-pack that behaves more like an echo-chamber than a body that aspires to hold power to account, i strongly believe that the EU cannot win this battle of ideas. They have their billions of euros and we have nothing but our keyboards, but our ideas are better than theirs and no amount of money can disguise it, making this an unequal fight that they cannot win.
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If they were serious, the "austerity" should have started from the top.
Every politician from the top down should have taken a 30% "haircut".
I don't see politicians giving up anything.
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Discounted;
If you think people around the world are going to pay extra to sustain the "European way of life" with its 5 to 7 weeks of annual paid vacation and retirement at age 55 or 60 when they can buy merchandise every bit as good or better for a lot less because these kinds of costs and a million others aren't factored into the price, you are living in the same delusional world that created this mess.
Even within its own markets, if it is going to tax cheaper imports, its own products will be taxed in other markets in retaliation and it will have to live as an isolated economic island. As the data referenced on a previous thread shows, Euroland's balance of payments with the outside world over time is more or less neutral when the size of the overall economy is viewed. Therefore since the financial picture has deteriorated to the point Europe is at now, that is not viable. The competition is over, Euroland has lost. Personally I don't think anything can save it. It will be interesting to watch the Euroland politicians scramble trying but the numbers are so large that even if their populations went along with the measures so far, the prognosis is hopeless.
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@ 5 MAII
There is no correlation between social security/national healthcare and GDP/growth.
Sorry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#The_welfare_state_and_social_expenditure
I could find others if you want, for some reason people are funny about Wiki.
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I would agree with Mr Barroso that the EU has the potential to do a lot of good and I would disagree with comments that the EU has achieved nothing. In the end there are only two options for Europe- either to keep peace or to start a war and I think history has shown that that is in no one's interest. And if you think about the fact that France and Germany used to be archenemies for centuries and now have actually formed a kind of alliance if not to an extent friendship, that in itself is quite an amazing thing.
I do believe that the EU has brought easier travel, exchange programs, cultural events etc that have been of direct benefit to its citizens and that have promoted more understanding and tolerance. The EU also has the power to promote things that are good generally but may not be liked by individual nations such as environmental issues, challenging cartels and promoting human rights.
So I would agree with Mr Barroso that more integration is a good thing. However, does it have to be on a fiscal level? I am not sure whether a fiscal union promotes integration or instead just angers people so that they then fail to see the advantages the EU actually has. It all seems to come down to the Euro and if that fails, it means that people will equate this with a failure of european integration. I think the latter would be a real shame and I wish there would be some differentiation between promoting understanding and co-orperation between Europe's nations (which I think is beneficial) and financial integration (which may or may not be beneficial).
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4.BluesBerry wrote: The Jean Monnet Network is the best in the battle of ideas... it can be said with confidence that the EU is in constant receipt of independent advice about any aspect of EU functioning.
I sincerely doubt that anything named after mr Jean Monnet can be referred to as independent. The composition of the 'Jean Monnet Network' is likely to be extremely biased in favor of university graduates and those can hardly be seen as representative of the peoples at large.
And lets not forget that those with university degrees have been found on average to be more in favor (or less opposed, whatever your preference) of political integration. I doubt that many who openly state opposition to political integration are accepted in.
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15.Benefactor wrote: @ 5 MAII
There is no correlation between social security/national healthcare and GDP/growth.
That's because of the structural overspending in European countries. Its easy to spend a lot on welfare and healthcare if you don't mind structural overspending made possible by structural 4%+ growth (no matter how inflated or artificial that growth is.) Now that cuts HAVE TO BE made, guess what is going to be a main area of cuts?
And mind you, the socalled cuts made so far are nothing compared to what is needed, deficits still remain, debt still increases. Unless you can someone kickstart the ponzi scheme like structural 4%+ economic growth (which would only lead to a new collapse later) it is not going to be possible to sustain the current welfare model.
The inflated housing and stock prices fuelled the growth of the last 15-20 years, and now we find out it was all artificial wealth. And the main problem, many started spending that artificial wealth and now find their house isn't worth as much as they thought it would by by 2010.
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16.CMZ wrote: In the end there are only two options for Europe- either to keep peace or to start a war and I think history has shown that that is in no one's interest.
And in order to keep the peace it is better to dissolve the EU. Don't forget that guarantees given by EU (then EEC) officials to Milosevic that they too supported keeping Yugoslavia together emboldened said Milosevic to try and do exactly that. The result? War. And a US led bailout.
And we don't need 'more integration' to have peace. In fact, we don't need the EU at all. People were so sick of war after 1945 that western Europe would have remained at peace even without the EU (its predecessors of the time). NATO/USA would not have allowed any restart of war in Europe.
I do believe that the EU has brought easier travel, exchange programs, cultural events etc that have been of direct benefit to its citizens and that have promoted more understanding and tolerance.
Again, we don't need the EU for easier travel and exchange programs, or for cultural events. The existence of the EU is not a necessary precondition for any of these things. Intergovernmental agreements could have done the same thing.
There isn't a single benefit the EU brings that could also have been gotten the intergovernmental way. The only ones who do benefit from the EU are mainstream politicians, senior bureaucrats and the corporations/bankers. Remember, the USA sponsored and encouraged the European Federalist Movement and told them to undermine the national sovereignties of their respective countries. EU-federalists have some 'splainin' to do.
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Malefactor, you are correct, there is no correlation of social security with GDP growth, China is proof of that disconnect. But GDP is not a real measure of a nation's ability to generate wealth, GNI is far more indicative. And there, the disparity is most telling. What is more, Euroland's GNI is to a large degree depenedent on repatriation of profits from overseas like China. Were it not for the fact that money flows into Euroland from labor that directly competes with its own, it would be in even worse shape. Euroland's domestic economy simply isn't competitive and it's the European way of life that's at the root cause of it. That is what cannot be reconciled, giving up that way of life when it cannot be sustained. The politicians are now blaming each other, pointing the finger and talking in sharp accusations, a sure sign they know the end is near and approaching quickly.
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Fitch had an itch....to downgrade Spain.
"http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Dow-falls-over-1-percent-rb-928931701.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=
"Stocks added to losses on Friday, pushing the Dow down more than 1 percent, after Fitch downgraded its rating of Spain."
What took them so long? I downgraded it myself a long time ago. One good bullfight and I was convinced. :-)
This of course will only push interest rates up for Spain assuming anyone is willing to take a risk on buying their bonds. Some say the other PIIGS are not in the same leaky boat as Greece. That remains to be seen. Whatever the politicians say, it's the markets Europe was only recently so happy with when their paper was highly rated and enabled them to borrow up to their limit that they now so decry complaining that they are being hurt by them. What they refuse to recognize is that the market is merely a mirror of what they themselves have shown investors, that the mistrust is the result of not having used money previously borrowed in a way that gives any degree of confidence that past and future debt will be paid back as promised. The voyage down the spiral continues.
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mvr515 wrote:
'NATO/USA would not have allowed any restart of war in Europe.'
Maybe, maybe not - but if you remember, it took the Americans a long time before they became involved in WWII. And if you see the current-understandable- reluctance of the USA to get involved in the conflict between North and South Korea, maybe that suggests that the US is getting fed up with their self imposed role of 'international peace keeper'. I think it is always preferable for Europe to solve its problems and keep piece on its own rather than relying on outsiders.
'Again, we don't need the EU for easier travel and exchange programs, or for cultural events. The existence of the EU is not a necessary precondition for any of these things. Intergovernmental agreements could have done the same thing'
I agree that intergovernmental agreements can do a lot in terms of cultural stuff etc, but if it comes to European wide travel and residency agreements, inter-governmental agreements only get you so far- you really need an overall body that oversees this rather than two, three, four nations with agreements between themselves- that is if you want European wide travel rather than just travel between France and UK lets say.
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The EU suffers seriously from a lack of genuine intellects who would understand what they are talking and who would not make confusion worse confounded. The idea of EU should have been defined and formulated long time before the commencement of the project. The "battle of ideas" is the past and now is time to battle for the idea.
That is the real problem. Where it comes to realization, huge apparatus of bureaucracy suddenly reveals a differency in opinions. A critical mass of "eurocrats" is not the issue. It is time for listening to the people.
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20. At 6:34pm on 28 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"What is more, Euroland's GNI is to a large degree dependent on repatriation of profits from overseas like China. Were it not for the fact that money flows into Euroland from labor that directly competes with its own, it would be in even worse shape"
You are inconsistent as always.
As you mentioned in another blog regarding repatriation of profits, money flowing from China back to US, it proves the greatness of the US.
When it is Euroland money, all bad, we are doomed.
America is Great... The city of Detroit will agree with you...
http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/28/news/economy/american_cities_broke.fortune/index.htm
That's how a winner looks like:
http://view.adam.ne.jp/e_setoy/pic/hirosima/suzugamine.html
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Yeah Jose, if you say so.
I feel like voting you out but, oh I forgot, I can't can I?
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Who? Who is this guy? By what exercise of power does he speak at me from the media?
Who is this guy Barrosso and why is he important?
And furthermore, why is he taking absolutely zero responsibility for the damage he has personally been responsible for overseeing?
I guess he'd say it is not his fault. But then. I'd bet you five euros he never says anything is his fault. Why would he? Who does he need to please? The bankers? They love him. He has impressed them well very. They done fabulously from this man's work.
The total lack of humility, in the face of the Eurozone's massive problems, betrays the character of the man. The character of the man betrays the character of the institution and its sponsors.
Mao would have shot him and sent the family the bullet.
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It is a good thing that there are "narrow-minded, nationalistic, chauvinistic political leaders at the national level."
If Barroso were to have his ides of big centralised government come to fruition then all hopes of democracy thriving in Europe would vanish.
Barroso may want to win the battle for the big idea of a united Europe but it is the democratically elected "narrow-minded, nationalistic, chauvinistic political leaders at the national level" who restrain him and his ilk enabling the EU becoming THE government of Europe without any democratic credibility or voted choice in the matter having been made.
The really worrying thing is that Barroso believes the Lisbon Treaty to give the EU the way forward to producing centralised control of national economies or what he terms "Economic Union" ... was that really what the Westminster Parliament agreed to when voting to have the Treaty ratified by the UK? I don't think so!
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Anyone who listens to this man, or reports what he says, is guilty of the very worst kind of subservient crawling sycophancy. He has no mandate whatsoever. He is the pure embodiment of anti democratic rule by the elite.
Barroso is a living symbol for what is unacceptable about European public life. He is anti-democracy incarnate.
Notice his comments about "popularism". Sure. I bet he fears and hates the idea of ordinary people making decisions. Who would he be then? Just another friend and relative of the elite class of super rich in Europe.
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@26 "Mao would have shot him and sent the family the bullet"
That would be a sad irony for Barrosso as he is a former Maoist. Besides, Mao would probably have starved him to death, Stalin would have had him shot.
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DiscoStu_d wrote:
@26 "Mao would have shot him and sent the family the bullet"
"That would be a sad irony for Barrosso as he is a former Maoist. Besides, Mao would probably have starved him to death, Stalin would have had him shot."
Yes, though I would not call the irony sad. My point was not celebrate Maoism, but rather to point out that this sort of elitist stooge being paraded around the political stage is exactly the sort of affront to common dignity that causes revolutionary violence.
When people are confronted by the agents of capitalist fascism, they will support the agents of socialist fascism.
I don't think Hewitt and his kind really appreciate just how hated people like Barroso are. Hewitt has no idea, and journalists generally don't have any empathy for the masses. If they did, I suspect they'd not get very far as journalists. Empathy for advertisers is what is called for in the entertainment business.
But Barroso is hated, and not just by me. Everyone who is not involved in working for the EU or for a large corporate entity says the same thing. "Who is this guy?"
The sentiment is really "So this is how thing really are. I am being dictated to by the rich and the party elite. They call it democracy, but this is how things really are. I never had any say in the appointment of this guy, and nor did any of the common people. OK, that is how things really are for me."
And so they hate him. Passionately. He is the hideous face of the class system itself. The existence of his position is a spit in the face of the concept of equality before the law, and of political emancipation.
He is living proof that behind the charade, the bankers rule Europe as a feudal aristocracy.
Hopefully another Mao or Stalin will not come along and raise hell by advocating the shooting of this man. Then we'll just get another socialist dictator to replace the banker's redundant poster boy, but the system will not change.
What I really want for this man Barroso, and his kind, is to die quietly in old age, totally forgotten and unnoticed by his society. Because that is his fate, if direct democracy ever takes hold in Europe. He'll be just another ex party hack with connections to the elite world of European nobility. Nobody will care what he says, and his opinion will be just another opinion, equal amongst all others. Maybe he'll take up a job, working for his uncle's hedge fund, selling shady debt instruments to other market players. But at least he wont be doing this sort of thing with other people's money.
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oi oi oi
You missed the point entirely. On its own, Europe is not competitive. That is the significance of its having to supplement its income with repatriated profits from foreign investments in cheaper labor. America isn't either in many areas. But there are other areas where America is number one. High technology, not aways the hands on manufacturing end but the brains behind it and in agriculture. Americans are on the whole the world's best engineers. There are many other areas where Americans are best such as in business management and in the now disreputable financial services sector. Also the best doctors and dentists. Many of the best scientsts too and among foreigners who are as good, many were trained here and even worked here. Jobs in these areas (excluding agriculture0 often command high salaries. Agribusiness in America is big business and those who work in that end of it can also be very well paid.
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I wonder where is the money gone in Europe and the USA; two big places, after all. I mean gone to, from. How did you do it that in both places they have? slightly shrank or ? paled away
Does someone depreciate money from time to time, to tear and wear? (electronic those abstract ones I mean)
Or did they not go any where, but stayed in the USA and in Europe but? nobody sees them? became invisible?
Did someone got more rich on the side, beyond your borders? no? nobody noticed? (a poetical glance ;o), from the outside)
when something disappears in one place it appears let's hope in another, by law of the energy preservation.
If money is gone - then, may be, indeed, someone is invisibly depreciating the zero-s and amounts?
I understand here, in Russia, here, LOL, :o)))))))))) hopeless. most things kind of surrealistic. but as min when we lose money we know where they go to, to banks abroad. But where to you lose them, in your turn?
If things are working, people are working, all is more or less, plus/minus 50% :o))))))))) reasonable, wheels turn and all. So what has happened?
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In the battle of ideas between pro-EUropeans and EU-sceptics one side is so far ahead it is laughable. The definition of a scientific theory is one that not only explains past observed facts but can be tested by predicting future events. The 'no European demos' theory certainly explains many past facts about EU integration, such as the phenomina that increasing the powers of the EU parliament has not solved the EU democratic deficit, or that the EU crisis of democratic legitimacy began at precisely the moment (Maastricht 1992) when QMV began to be introduced in poltically sensitive policy areas. It has also accurately predicted every new fact to emerge e.g the growth in EU deligitimisation with every treaty that reduced national vetos and that the same West Germans who funded vast transfers to pay for East Germans (part of their own German demos) are now not willing to fund lesser transfers to the Greek demos.
By contrast federalists have no theory at all that explains why the measures they said would increase EU democracy have in practice fuelled the EU crisis of democratic legitimacy as evidenced by all the lost, cancelled and by-passed referendums. Euro-federalism is now literaly intellectual bankrupt in being unable to explain its own failings and having nothing but a bycycle anology thats says keep plugging away with an approach that has now been proved not to work for 30 years and which has instead beqeathed us the self-obsessed self-aggrandizing undemocratic burocratic monster we see in Brussels today.
Beating federalists in the battle of ideas is so simple that not even their 2.4 billion euro per year propaganda budget can help them. When they ignore referendum results and impose their federalising agenda anyway you know they themselves realise thet can no longer win the battle.of ideas in a fair contest. Federalists remind me of Wellington's comment about the enemy at Waterloo; "They came on in the same old way and we defeated them in the same old way." The challenge for EU-sceptics now is to convert our victory in the battle of ideas into political effect by acheiving a real reduction in Brussels power. We must never rest until this is achieved.
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I find it interesting that Fitch's reason for downgrading Spain's credit is that it will cut its budget. This according to Fitch will reduce the magnitude of its recovery. It's another one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't problems for Euroland. Cut the budget and get downgraded because there won't be enough stimulus to grow the economy. Don't cut the budget and get downgraded because the debt is too high to pay back. Spain as we would say here seems to be between a rock and a hard place...and it always was...between Gibraltar and France :-)
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WA;
Money, money, who's got the money? Where did all that money go? Where did it disappear to? Who stole it. Good question, not an easy answer. Some of it went into building houses that either couldn't be sold or the people who bought them couldn't pay for them. This was the result of extending credit to millions of people who shouldn't have gotten any or not nearly as much as they were given. Why were they given it? Because as the road to hell is paved with good intentions, Presidents BushI, Clinton, Bush II, and all of those Congresses wanted everyone in America to realize the American dream of owning their own home...which has turned into a financial nightmare for the entire world. With easy credit, people began buying houses like crazy. There was a boom in building houses, selling houses, prices rose, people speculated on them. But why would a bank lend people money who couldn't pay for it? Normally that should not be possible. But the financial wizards of New York City and California invented a trick, a very clever and dangerous trick which they got away with because they knew people would be too lazy to check up and discover what they had done before it was too late. They loaned money to anyone who wanted it to buy a house at what were called "teaser rates." These were mortgages whose rates were initially very low allowing buyers to make their monthly payments but then several years later rose to much higher rates to make up for the lost revenues from the initially low rates. Then they took lots and lots of these mortgages, chopped them up into lots of little pieces, put pieces from each of the mortgages together in bundles and sold them to anyone who would buy them, banks, investment houses, individuals, anyone. The more of these they created and sold, the more money they made. Somehow these instruments were highly rated by the investment ratings agencies, they didn't do their job of checking them. They were lazy and believed whatever the originators of the mortgages put on the paperwork and got the buyers to sign. And government regulators didn't do their jobs either, both because they weren't allowed to and because there weren't nearly enough people to do the job thoroughly. The law changed to allow commercial banks to buy these defective "toxic" assets. How much? At least several trillions of dollars worth. And when they failed, all of the banks were left holding worthless investments. If this wasn't bad enough, a new idea sprung to mind. Since the banks might worry about these mortgages being paid, the insurance companies wrote insurance policies that guaranteed that if they failed, the insurance companies would pay the banks the money instead. Since most were expected not to fail, the premiums were low. The policies were bought and sold as investment instruments too includng to foreign banks who overextended themselves even more than American banks to buy what seemed like a sure bet with good returns. But insurance companies like AIG were ultimately liable for much of it. And so when the whole scheme collapsed because the mortgages began defaulting in what became a tsunami, all the money people thought they had in real estate assets, and these complex investments called derivitives became worthless. In fact the perceived value of banks and their vulnerability to total collapse was so great in September/October 2008 that they wouldn't lend to each other overnight because they were afraid that before the following morning the banks they loaned to would be bankrupt and default. How did they know this? Because each of them had been doing the same thing themselves. So what disappeared is the monetary value everyone thought they had. Money was once upon a time a physical object you could hold in your hand, a piece of gold or silver. Today it is an abstraction, a number on a ledger sheet, an entry in a computer data bank. Even the paper that we think of as money is only an abstraction and only represents a small portion of what we call money. And so the money never really went anywhere because it never really existed in the first place. Welcome to Wonderland Alice where nothing is what it seems to be.
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' Mr Barroso often warns of the danger of "populism". ...'
EUpris: I have been seeing the word "populism" repeatedly in the German-language press in connection with the "EU" and also on this blog from Herr Mathiasen. It seems to mean democracy. They can't say they are against democracy so they invent another word for democracy so they can be against that.
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The graph shows the 5 day trading for the Euro against the dollar.
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=EURUSD=X+Interactive#chart2:symbol=eurusd=x;range=5d;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
You can see where China's statement on Thursday temporarily pumped it back up at the open on Friday but the air continued leaking out of it all day. It closed around 1.2283 about a cent and a half off its mid week and four year low. If it falls through that level in the next week or two, technical analysts will be hard put to predict where it will find its next support level. It may find support at 1.17 where it was in 2006. It's all time low was around 0.84 in 2001.
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EUpris:
" I have been seeing the word "populism" repeatedly in the German-language press in connection with the "EU" and also on this blog from Herr Mathiasen. It seems to mean democracy. They can't say they are against democracy so they invent another word for democracy so they can be against that."
Yes. Then they give an example of a mob riot in paris in 1803, and raise their eyebrows knowingly.
It's ridiculous. As John Stuart Mill wrote so many years ago, they who have put out the peoples eyes reproach them for their blindness.
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Barroso said in his speech: "We need an impassioned analysis of the facts. We need to interpret these facts in innovative ways. And we need constructive and viable ideas for our future policies. I expect a great deal from the Jean Monnet Programme in all these respects – analysis, interpretation, and fresh ideas for the future of Europe."
When I googled the words "impassioned analysis", I came across an article entitled "Impassioned politics - New research on the role of emotions in political life", which I did not read (since it wasn't freely available). So this is the latest fashion, then. I always thought that it was good to let the facts speak for themselves, without any interference from theoretical prejudices. Otherwise, one ends up with propaganda. This is just what Barroso is calling for. So, unlike what some others said above, Barroso is still a Maoist. On top of it he is a neoliberal, but the essence of his maoist approach to life remains. This sort of dogmatism is fine for the e.g. Catholic church, where preaching is appreciated ("impassioned analysis"), and where a lot of people don't practice what they preach ("cold, hard fact"). Maybe Barroso should ask his friend Spiros Latsis to bring him to an isolated Greek island, where he can preach to the pebblestones on the beach. With friends like that, the EU project does not need enemies.
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Right up to the end, Hitler beleived he would win the war he started. the Soviet guns could already be heard around the city, I think even deep below the earth in his bunker as 22,000 pieces of artillery fired day and night into Berlin yet he held out until the last defiant and unshakable in his conviction. In addition to everything else it was payback time for Stalingrad. Everyone else knew and had known for a long time the war was lost to Germany. Those who tried to tell him were labled traitors by him. The bunker mentality in Brussels lives on. The remedy for a failing union according to them is more union. Merkel has an unenviable decision to make. Throw Germany's money at a problem which can't be solved and get blamed for dragging Germany down into the same financial hole as Greece and the others or say enough, we're through with it and get blamed for being the one who wrecked the European project. Had this possibility been presented to German voters at the beginning when they voted for union, they might have thought twice about it but had they voted for it, they'd have known what they were getting themselves into and could have opted out on an individual basis by migrating elsewhere. But Germany is no democracy and such informed consent is not the method of dictatorships. They propagandize their constituents in lieu of informed debate, tell them what the government postion will be and then shove it down their throats with as much sugar coating as they can muster. The fate of Europe is largely in the hands of a woman who grew up and was educated in communist East Germany, a failed state based on discredited theories of everything especially economics. What will she do?
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Here is an interesting article about the relation between the USA and the Euro problem. Some parts are hilarious, such as market oversight organizations collecting some of their data by fax. A quote to wet the appetite: "Whether you are Angela Merkel in Germany or Barack Obama in the US, when you speak to Chairman Bernanke you do so from a subordinate position, kneeling preferably."
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"The Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said that the sacrifices were necessary to save the euro."
Starting with himself, of course? ;)
Adn will Italians agree to honestly pay their taxes, just like Greeks?
And will Barroso sacrifice his political career and perks in order not to antagonize Chancellor Merkel, without whose good will he can take his whole Euro zone and shove it?
And will Spaniards agree that to reduce the percentage of those employed by the state from half a country to, perhaps, one third?
And will the French agree to retire at 35 rather than at 30?
And will the Irish...
Oh, forget it. "I know I am a dreamer"
P.S. Waiting for Germans to start protesting and demanding a return to D-Mark.
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"Europe", Mr Barroso said, "is the greatest, and most successful, experiment and political integration in the world".
Correction, Mr. Barroso.
Soviet Union was the greatest and the most successful.
EUSSR is only second most succesuful integration experiment.
[HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE]
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FreebronJohn wrote (in #1)
"In recent years we have seen a disturbing trend emerge as the prime ministers of Portugal and Brussels resigned from the highest democratic offices in their countries to take up more powerful positions in Brussels that are beyond the reach of any voters."
Make no mistake about it: plenty of leading politicians who lost elections in Central European countries (from Czechia to Poland)
have done EXACTLY the same.
[check the membership list in EU Parliament
And their salaries and perks as well, of course. :)]
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RFe #4 "In spite of speculation, in spite of some enmity from the west, the Euro will survive, especially with the Jean Monnet Network hot on the tail of proposals & changes (good or bad)- always standing ready to defend the Euro."
Wanna bet on it? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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"If she [Merkel] takes it, she will be eternally blamed by Germans for selling them out to an impossible goal that was not really in their interest"
MAII.
Merkel and her CDU has already lost one important election.
And despite that, that Portuguese fella seem to suggest she should change her first name from Angela to Adolf.
Perhaps he, and the Spanish cobbler (zapetero in Spanish) should change their names to Francisco.
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OK
IT IS TO LAUGH
IF YOU CARE ABOUT LIFE ITSELF WE (STRESS THIS WORD WEEE)
HAD BETTER CARE ABOUT B PETROLEUM CORP AND PRAY FOR THEM TO SAVE WORLD'S GULF OF MEXICO
NOW, TOMORROW, AND FOR THE NEXT YEAR...PRAY
THE USA HAS REAPED THE WHIRLWIND...uhhhhhh ohhhhhh
Or I have (humor helps:O))))))))
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#43. At 07:24am on 29 May 2010, powermeerkat,
You're right about the USSR in the last century being more successful than the EU, but then don't forget that throughout history all empires have eventually fallen, usually as a result of even increasing corruption, rivalry and decadence. The EU is somewhat predictably just imploding even quicker than the USSR managed to do, probably due to the increased social mobility of the populations these days and the easy access to the internet making state controlled media very easy to circumvent. The EU's enormous publicity budget is just one example of how desperate and corrupt the institution has become, and Barroso's words just exemplify why the time has come to dismantle the EU edifice and return to a simple common market i.e. inter government agreements. After all groupings like EFTA, NATO and many others did or have worked for many years.
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I guess irony must be an Anglo-Saxon thing.
The sight, of the unelected Barroso berating elected national leaders for addressing the concerns and interests of the citizens who elected them is surely beyond parody.
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"Europe - the battle of ideas "
They lost the battle of ideas, which is why they denied us in the UK the referendum we were promised.
They have only one idea left which is dictatorship which is what we have got now.
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From Open Europe:
"If you would like to receive the Open Europe press summary in your inbox each weekday, please register here:
http://www.openeurope.org.uk/media-centre/presssummaries.aspx
Kind regards,
Open Europe"
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MaxSceptic
Re #49
Ditto, mate.
EU democracy in action: Don't you just love it!?
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http://www.richthofen.com/ww1sum2/
'... The increasing alienation between the Austrian and German high commands caused some German officers to cynically state "we are shackled to a corpse." ...'
Maybe Germans have started to see the similarity with the Eurozone.
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
@ MAxSceptic #49
Re "The sight, of the unelected Barroso berating elected national leaders for addressing the concerns and interests of the citizens who elected them is surely beyond parody."
Take another look at the electoral systems in Europe. The national leaders (Prime Ministers) are not elected.
They are prime ministers because they head the biggest party (usually) or are elected within that biggest party.
Therefore they have an indirect democratic legitimicay (actually just like Barosso!). Their PERSONAL democratic legitimacy is much lower however, because:
1. they only get elected in a first stage as MP (in the elections)
2. the consituencies in which they run for MP never cover the entire territory of the national state (meaning not every citizen has had the opportunity to vote for the would be PM)
This leads to strange situations. One notable example is the way in which the British PM has 'personal' democratic legitimacy:
Out of 45 609 000 eligible voters in the UK, only 78 277 have had the opportunity to vote for the would be PM and only 33,973 actually did!
33 793 out of 45 609 000, and you British would give the EU lessons on democracy? What a joke!
Nevertheless, I am happy for you that Mr Clegg will battle to change the electoral system for you and then your country will be one step closer to becoming a member of the civilized world!
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Re #48 Buzaet.
Should I have added a ;) sign? :)
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Re #49 MaxSceptic wrote: "I guess irony must be an Anglo-Saxon thing."
It sure is.
That's why I say that EUSSR is only second to USSR as far as succeful political and economic integration is concerned.
Now, about Mr. Obama's tangible successes in Lousiana...
And Pakistani's government's successes in fighting Islamist extremists...
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Re #53
Germans usually take a long time to rebel and go out into the streets.
[they're used to following orders, per fas et nefas]
Last time they did, if memory serves, was in 1933.
No, Europe might not like an outcome of a repetition.
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'That would be a sad irony for Barrosso as he is a former Maoist.'
Maoists are doing quite well in Nepal, and, from terrorist bombers' point of view - in India. :(
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How about reforming and getting rid of waste and corruption in the bloated EU? Stop the gravy train of MEP's and Commissioners and everyone else employed in this organization and member states could save billions in contributions. Let the austerity measures in Europe start there.
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#55 - Jean Luc
You just can't resist it can you? I was on the verge of endorsing every word you said then I read ". . . your country will be one step closer to becoming a member of the civilized world!"
I am getting heartily fed up with people posting gratuitous insults of the British. We know the system is flawed and there are people out there intending to try do something about it. This does not make us a bunch of uncivilized philistines and, if that's the best you can do, I suggest you would be better off keeping your view to yourself.
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#60 - Oustnulabour
How about the European Parliament doing their job by vetoing the budget and keeping on sending it back until it is a manageable figure.
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powermeerkat
Re #58
Sympathise with Your point of view.
There were demonstrations from Right, Left & Centre in the 1920-30s Weimar German Republic.
However, worth recalling that unfortunately for everyone in January 1933 Herr Hitler was a Democratically elected Politician as was his Nazi Party (largest group in the Reichstag) and he joined a surprise 'Coalition' as the 'minority' member at the invite of the democratically elected but near senile President Hindenburg!
Should the proposed massive 'cuts' in UK Public Spending occur:
Watch-out for Nick Clegg, I say!
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@32 webalice
Good question. And I don't think you care for the answer.
Anyway, here is one suggestion:
"It is the result of the deformation of spacetime caused by a very compact mass." (black hole, wikipedia).
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Re #55
JL is back!
Still completely unable to recognise EU stable doors have been closed after the 'Nationalistic' horses have bolted, but he's got his Commission jodhpurs on & is gallantly running out the anti-democratic Brussels' yard futilely whinnying about political lessons in the vain hope any sound horse still remains tethered to the EUro-zone and EU!
Tally-ho JL...
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Now it`s official: The EU is an institution run for the sole reason so serve French interests and the ECB is a French insitution run by a Frenchman who only serves French interests.
The ECB bought 25 billion worth of Greek bonds, which artificially kept the prices up. Mostly French banks got rid of their bonds.
And all this in spite of the agreements on the help for Greece.
Even worse, it was counter productive for the EU as a whole and for the Euro.
The anchor has been hoisted to leave the shores of sound monetary policy once and for all.
Forget Greece, forget Spain.
There is an even bigger problem: one of the founding members is using the whole system to only serve its own interests.
Europe - the battle for French ideas
I really liked the idea behind a unified Europe, even though I got serious doubts about some things which got discussed in length on here.
But this was the final straw to break the camel`s back.
I`ve had it with the EU.
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@58 powermeerkat
"Last time they did, if memory serves, was in 1933.
Actually there were riots for the most part of the Weimar Republic, especially at the beginning and during the financial crisis.
1933 was a relatively calm year.
Doesn`t change your point though: it destabilized the frail democracy.
But it did not overthrow it. Hitler was democratically empowered by the Enabling Act of 1933 and therefore, democracy abolished itself ... ;)
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The propaganda value of Barroso's speech does have resonance of Adolf Hitler. Hitler was an apparently quite courageous corporal in WWI. From his point of view, while he and his ilk were dying on the battlefield, Germany was being stabbed in the back by international financiers who were predominantly jewish. He also associated jewishness with the nazi Shibboleth, Bolshevism. That - odd though it may seem after the more recent soviet pogroms - was a common notion, hence the Balfour Declaration, intended to woo soviet leaders.
Now the troops of EU integration like Barroso see nation states and their advocates in the same light as Hitler saw Jews. As the crisis gets more serious, his rhetoric becomes more shrill.
While I appreciate the Maoist irony outlined above, there is a greater. Leaders like Hitler, Mao and Stalin were using their propaganda for populist purposes, to rouse the people against their ideologically fashioned oppressors.
Jose Barroso has the ideologically fashioned oppressors, outlined in Gavin Hewitt's piece - but where are the people ? This 'populism' so derided by Jose Barroso has become completely absent from EU affairs.
Once there was some popular resonance to accusations of 'isolatedness' - despite its appearance as a curiously creaky soviet-era epithet - against such as Margaret Thatcher.
The failed EU constitution and democratically bankrupt Lisbon Treaty have put paid to all that.
Look behind you, Jose. There are only apparatchiks.
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This may come as something of a surprise to those who are used to my EU positive stance but I agree with the negative comments about Mr. Barroso. He is far too powerful, too far removed from public accountability and has a tendency to forget who his political masters are - those very governments he has taken to criticising. Now that we have not one but two head honchos (what IS Mr. van Rompuy for anyway?), I suppose he has to watch his back a bit but is it not time for someone to call him to heel?
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#55. At 11:26am on 29 May 2010, Jean Luc,
Having lived in your civilised world (an S and not a Z by the way) on the European mainland for 20 years your belief in your politicians democratic legitimacy is a bit off key to say the least. Take a look at Belgium where the heads of the lists are decided largely by a group of party hacks and where we are asked to vote for people whom very few have even heard of let alone met. At least in the UK the people of a constituency get the chance to meet (and berate) the wannabe politicians. The only electioneering I ever see here is the fighting over poster space on the commune provided notice boards where even rival candidates within the same list fly post over their rivals posters, walkabouts and door knocking seem to be unheard of.
Once again we are about to go to the polls and no doubt once again we will be treated to the same old fudge, confusion and moribund government that we've experienced so long because of the PR electoral system that is used here.
If PR is civilisation then the inmates are running the asylum!
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Battle of ideas? Battle of wits? Seems more like a battle of nitwits to me. If you ever follow a chess match in a book about chess or a newspaper, you find that professional chess players rarely if ever play it out to the bitter end, they don't play until an actual checkmate. One or the other player invariably accepts that they have been defeated and resigns. Armies don't usually fight until their last soldier is dead, they surrender so that at least some of their soldiers might not die once it's clear they cannot win. But some people don't know when to quit. The game is no longer afoot it's over. Only emotion, the unyielding will to continue and not give up "the impossible dream" keeps the Euro and even the EU itself going. The end game quickly deteriorates into a farce, a rout. Only in this case there are real consequences for real people. Here's one of them, undoubtedly only among the first of many. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what is to come for Europe in its perfect storm I've been predicting for years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10189367.stm
"The world's leading supplier of the anti-diabetes drug insulin is withdrawing its medication from Greece.
Novo Nordisk, a Danish company, objects to a government decree ordering a 25% price cut in all medicines.
People with diabetes in Greece have condemned the Danish action as "brutal capitalist blackmail"."
The Greeks and probably many others still think that they live in a socialist dictatorship and that companies that produce things of value are running charities for the benefit of the greater good of society and not private enterprises for the greater good of their shareholders. Perhaps another socialist country can help them out. North Korea? Cuba? Venezuela still has some money...for the time being anyway. Perhaps the Greek government should start seizing some of the assest of those who didn't pay taxes all those years and sell them off to raise some money. But who would buy a huge yacht these days or a large villa where real estate taxes are likely to go through the roof? It doesn't seem like the plan spoken about a few weeks ago where the Greek government would sell off some islands to German banks to raise cash got any traction either. They just don't seem to be in the market for islands these days, they feel Germany has enough land already. My how things have changed.
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The illusion of success has a thousand parents, failure is an orphan. My how many people who were staunch supporters of the EU and Euro only a few months or just weeks ago have suddenly turned around 180 degrees and no longer like it. The EU an instrument of France? Barosso a dictator out of touch with the people? Where were all you doubters up to now? Where were your "democratic institutions" publically debating these possibilities and voting on whether the risks were worth the promised and now largely unfulfilled promised rewards of a political or monetary union? Nowhere to be found as far as I can tell. Just a lot of little dictatorships combining to form one big dictatorship in a place where dictatorship has a long history of being the way things are done and people accepting that it's the only way they should be done. Calling those European countries democracies is like putting a wedding gowns and lipstick on PIIGS and calling them brides. They still oink, snort, and stink. Looks like Europe bought PIIGS in a poke and now there is no longer any denying it. I TOLD YOU SO ALL ALONG!
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Think of how much insulin the Greek government could have bought with the money they wasted on the Olympic Games last year, a useless party that lasted two whole weeks. Why should a Danish company penalize its shareholders because Greek politicians decided money would be better spent giving out lucrative construction contracts to local building contractors to put up the venues instead of buying insulin?
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71. At 12:59pm on 29 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
About the real 'price' of austerity.
Well done MAII.
Is the protection of the European financial sector worth the 'price' that goes with it?
Perhaps it does, but then again, not if your a diabetic living in Greece it would appear.
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@ #58 powermeerkat
"Re #53
Germans usually take a long time to rebel and go out into the streets.
[they're used to following orders, per fas et nefas]
Last time they did, if memory serves, was in 1933."
Memory served badly in this case, I fear. Last time they did it -and peacefully- was in 1989, when the Eastern German Population on the streets of the GDR forced the socialist dictatorship to give up. I think, there a very few as-success- and peacefull revolutions in Western Europe as that one.
However, I agree nonetheless: "Germans usually take a long time to rebel and go out into the streets".
Ash
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Dempster;
In the United States, the business of catering affairs has become big business over the decades. Bar Mitzvohs, confirmations, graduation parties, even funerals, and weddings, especially weddings. After the ceremony at a church, there is the limosine to transport the bride and groom, and other limos for the most honored guests like the immediate families, the catering hall, the caterers (food preparers and servers), the open bar, still photographers, video-photographers, musicians or DJ's to provide music, floral arrangements, tuxedo and bridal gown rentals or purchases, brides maid dresses, and on and on. Even the services of someone to arrange the whole thing for them. Often more than a hundred guests are invited, mostly people neither the bride nor groom have seen in years and will probably not see again for years if ever. Such a party can easily cost well over $100,000.
When the party is over, the business of living gets under way. Sometimes one or both spouses needs a new car, they would like to buy a house, or they just need help paying rent on an apartment. They may need other things like furniture. What they have instead of $100,000 is heaps of toaster ovens, food processors, other assorted small appliances they received as wedding gifts, professional wedding photos, and memories, lots of memories.
Everyone, every individual, every nation has a finite limit to its resources. Economy is about the choices made in using those resources. Some are consumed, some are used to generate more wealth. When wealth is perpetually consumed faster than it is produced, eventually the process leads to bankruptcy. Not only is all of the wealth gone, but the capacity to generate more of it is also gone. That is where Europe is now. It's party has lasted for over 60 years. It's been paid for largely by American taxpayers and workers who lost their jobs when American firms were encourated to invest in war shattered Europe after WWII, then by banks and other "investors" who loaned huge sums to governments, and as the article about insulin shows, by private firms as well. The question now is how will Europe expend its limited remaining resources. Will private companies be required to give away their profits in the form of free goods and services? Why would anyone invest in them anymore? Loss of investor confidence in profitability will drive those companies bankrupt too. Where does it end? Will Mercedes be required to supply cars to government officials in Spain and Italy for free too? At what point does Europe recalculate what it can afford and what it can't, given its dire situation it has created for itself in its insane delusion it's been living in? As I posted earlier, these societies have been shielded by their social welfare states from the realities of their real financial circumstances. That is at an end. It's time for very painful choices and 5% reductions in government spending won't cut it. In fact it isn't clear that these economies can ever recover or thrive in the foreseeable future. I for one will watch to see how this plays itself out. Perhaps my guess that there will be a social explosion is wrong. Perhaps Europe will invent what it used to call "a third way" somewhere between socialism and capitalsim. I don't know how such a thing can be done or how it would work. I'm always fascinated to watch other people grapple with problems I wouldn't begin to know where to start on if I had to solve them myself. I understand sending our money to Africa to help it deal with its misfortunes. I just hope Ameicans don't once again have to pay out of their pockets for Europe's recklessness. Got any toaster ovens for sale?
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The 'solution' to Europe's version of the global financial meltdown is democracy.
Let the people of Europe elect their President and executive on the basis of one person one vote.
This is the proven, and indeed classical (see Roman Empire), way to solve such problems.
I would also like to see the rabid extremists in the press (and on this blog) argue against democracy.
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"""73. At 1:19pm on 29 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Think of how much insulin the Greek government could have bought with the money they wasted on the Olympic Games last year, a useless party that lasted two whole weeks.""""
Marcus cannot agree more. While the Danish company's decision is cruel, it is the harsh realith of commerce. Medicine and phramacology is a market and one of the biggest in the world, it is not a charity. One could not expect anything else. What the Greeks have to do is to start producing the medical product locally by infringing the patent with some little variation that will take the Danish company long to win the legal battle against infringement of its patent. Greeks have broken so many EU decisions and are already paying fines on that, why shouldn't they break this one too against a private company when it is to make the life better of people in need, even save lifes. Who cares about the patent?
As for the Olympics... I had spoken on that in 1997 Marcus, many Greeks had spoken against undetaking the Olympics, not only them but also more minor events like the international classical athleticism event (in 1996 if I remember well) which was the rehearsal for Olympics.... but back then we were treated as reactionary northerners (us Macedonians were treated by Athenians as jealous of them taking the games and all the money going to Athens and such... but then more than the 1/3 of Greece lives in Athens, not in Thessaloniki or Crete or anywhere else).
Now while it appealed to many Greeks to organise the Olympics of 1996 since it would mark symbolically the 100 years of modern games and commemorate the 1st games held in Athens, back in 89 (when it was decided to give it to Atlanta) it was thought as a way to de-commercialise the games, i.e. Greeks would want to organise them but without much of fiestas and such and return the games to their basic values, i.e. the cost should had been more than half the one of the games of Seoul in '88. Let alone that back in the pre-2001 era and all that ephoria of post-90s the cost of security and such would be minimal in comparison to today. However, when Greece lost the bid in '89, interest was lost completely. Afterall the economy was getting so bad that none would want any such event.
When Greece got the games in 1997 I would not say that not more than 50% of people were happy, despite all that governmental propaganda and out of the happy ones it was those with hopes for more business for their sector (e.g. construction sector, hotel & tourism), the rest were just idiot Athenian ignorants who just considered it a summer party. However the more knowledgeable of Greeks were wary. Actually at least half of Greece was wary. None had asked us. None had explained us how much we are going to pay, what projects will have to be made. As time passed and people were seeing pharaonic projects that dwarfed the Olympics of Seoul, Atlanta and even of Sydney (whose non-permanent cheap installations were compared as "gipsy tents" in front of those of Athens) people wondered how on earth little Greece which is the 1/5th of Korea and Australia and the 1/30th of US in population and even worse in economy could be burdened so much. And what utilities could be found for these stadiums and terraformed lakes (to hold just 2 competitions for boat races, one for men, one for women...)... Of course it was another case of local Greek companies lobbying in the most corrupt Greek government ever (that of Simitis) for the account of their godfathers foreign companies (mostly european, mostly German... remember "last vote: Germany" back in 1997) who got of course the lion share. Back then Simitis of course was the man of the Germans, he burdened Greece to billions to give the German corporations larger commands, of course now Germans who enjoyed the flow of money now do not want to hear about the rest, hehe... whatever...
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Anyway, back to Gavin's interesting article: I see that Mr Baroso is back on the counter-attack
"""Europe", Mr Barroso said, "is the greatest, and most successful, experiment and political integration in the world"""
So? Even if so, so far, what lies next Mr Baroso? What direction are we heading?
""""It comes very often from narrow-minded, nationalistic, chauvinistic political leaders at the national level.""""
Hardly the truth. I did not see the EU commission or parliament striving to develop the institutions that would really ensure that the above narrow mindness did not happen:
1) coherent defense policy
2) coherent energy policy
3) coherent definition of EU's standing in today's world
And it is a pity. EU is a block of countries numbering 500 million people, some of the most developed economies (no matter their economic problems). No matter if the epicenter of the world's economy moves to the east with China, India and all the countries driving the trends Europe has still things to say.
"""If the EU does not go further, it may be going back forever."""
Whatever. What means to go further when one has not even done the most basic things in the beggining?
"We cannot have a monetary union without an economic union,"
NO. You can have an economic union, no problem but still if you do not align your defense, energy and thus geopolitical interests which directly influence your economies then there is no union. Creating financial institutions integrating the economies when countries still have not aligned their geopolitical interests is bound to fail.
"""...the crisis has revealed how interdependent Europe's economies are and that the Lisbon Treaty should be used to strengthen the co-ordination and surveillance of budgetary discipline."""
Down to the basics, most EU countries economies would be interdependent even without the EU/EEC. One suffices to see back in the 1930s to realise this fact. Surveillance of budgetary discipline should had been the point even 40 years back... better late than never one may say but whatever. As a Greek I still wonder what on earth they were thinking back in the 1980s & 1990s when they were giving "blindly" (really?) all that money for projects of dubious profitability.
"""...paint the critics as mainly from the English speaking world."""
Really, did Baroso say so? Haha... that is your favourite Gavin!
"""there are sometimes occasions when we see populism, xenophobia, chauvinism in Europe" - raising what he sees as the spectre of chauvinism for a second time."""
And why not? EU has become a defenseless field where people enter as looters and leave on will without control in the upper levels while in the lower it has become the wharehouse of all the poor miserables of earth with Europe-motherTeresa has to take care of and pay homes, medical care and education of them and their 5 children each as well as the used BMW, at the expense of local people who are only there to pay more and receive less than the past. And then ouaou! There is xenophobia... this is a Greek word and it is crap: people are not "fearful" of foreigners, people do not want the reasonless presence of foreigners which creates trouble, misery and high costs for all. And their voice is not heard. Few Europeans ask for closed borders, European are open people. What they ask is a certain respect of the law which so far has not been enforced.
"""we will need to win the battle of ideas"""
Nice, but first you have to have some ideas Mr. Baroso. Then you have to explain them. You can't talk about ideas when you are not willing in deploying your full line of thought. Where is the end ebjective for EU? What is the best direction to be taken?
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Nik, in 100 years Greece will be able to celebrate the unavailability of insulin for its diabetics resulting from it squandering its money on the Olympics. But the Olympics is just an example of what is wrong with Greece and the rest of Europe, a symptom not a cause. Greece claims to be a democracy, the birthplace of democracy. If you have a corrupt government why not vote them out? Why not hold them to account. When they are out of office why not prosecute them if you can prove they were corrupt? The answer is that there was a tacit agreement between the government and the people which allowed the government to stay in power and do business as usual so long as the Greek population was satisfied it got it's slice of the pie. Now that pie is gone and the pact is broken. It's too late to fight over who ate the lion's share of it. It's also misguided to blame others for problems you made yourselves.
Don't feel singled out. Your country is only among the first, many others in Europe will follow, you won't be alone. The same thing has happened and will happen all over Europe. It's the European way of life.
BTW, anyone can produce insulin. But what about all of the other things Greece needs to buy that it doesn't make and can't copy like other medical supplies and equipment including AIDS drugs and cancer and heart disease threatments? What about the technology it must import, the machinery, energy, and a million other things. How will Greece and the rest of the European countries get that? Now that Europe is broke, it doesn't look to challenge America anymore. All of that big talk we heard from the likes of Schroeder, Chirac, DeVillepin, that everyone in Europe seemed to be cheering to has fallen silent. Instead Europe is a basket case begging for charity. Suddenly it is interested in cooperation. Sorry, we're fresh out of cooperation just now. We spent it all in Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Jean Luc @55
Thank you for your sophistry.
So in which elections can we vote to dispose of Barroso?
Also, perhaps you'll tell us in what part of the 'civilised world' you live in. (10 to 1 it's subsidised by one of the uncivilised countries you obviously despise).
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John_from_Hendon @77
One problem: There is no 'European people'.
(There are, however, French, Germans, Greeks, Spaniards, Italians, etc.).
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Seems to me that the problem with the EU from a democracy standpoint is the relationship of the individual citizen of whatever country with Brussels. It's like referring to a 3rd cousin, twice removed. Kinda like going to a family reunion and wondering who is that fancy looking dude in the corner wearing all that bling. A person you have never seen before.
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Re #79 & other doubters...
The speech did indeed directly refer to 'english speaking..': The full text of Msr Barroso's speech can be found on EUropeana & other places.
Not having a clue about I.T. I am unable to give the 'web address'/'url' (?) or whatever all those clever people do on these Blog pages.
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Does Europe deserve what is happening to it? From this American's point of view yes. It's not a matter of revenge or even shadenfreude but of justice, in fact poetic justice that is worthy of a Greek tragedy (pardon the pun.)
The ones who would really get bailed out would be the German and French banks and by extension their respective nations who still depend on them. But I can't forget that it was barely more than 7 years ago when the US government felt its own nation's security was threatened by Iraq and the intelligence services of most other nations including Russia's agreed. In fact President Putin warned President Bush that their intelligence believed on the face of evidence that Iraq was planning to attack America on its own soil, that warning was a matter of public record and widely reported in the news.
The governments of France and Germany didn't merely disagree with America's proposed resolution in the UN to threaten to use military action against Iraq if it didn't cooperate with the UN inspectors, something it had never really done and a condition of the 1991 cease fire, it actively worked to block the US from taking any action at all. Had they merely disagreed they could have abstained in the UN Security Council but Germany who was a temporary member voted no and France actually vetoed the resolution. In fact France worked to get other temporary members to vote no too. Both knew that Russia and China would veto the resolution so why did they vote against it also instead of merely abstaining? Because they wanted to thumb their noses at America and tell it that they had the power to block it from using its own military to defend itself even by itself if they wanted to. Of course like most things Europeans conceive of, it backfired and not only did the US use military force to overthrow Saddam Hussein, France and Germany gained the enmity of most Americans. But it wasn't just the governments who wanted to stop America from defending itself, an estimated 90% of all Western Europeans and 50% of Brits were against it too. Why would France's and Germany's governments do that? My guess is because powerful people in their countries were making money out of circumventing the UN sanctions. Then why would the majority of Western Europeans object so strenuously? Because they wanted to see America attacked again right after 9-11? These are the only conclusions I can draw and many other Americans I know feel the same way. And so the world has changed considerably and Europe is no longer in any position to even try to dictate anything to anyone now. It will come begging America for help just as it begged President Bush to save AIG whose failure would have paralyzed Europe. I say when that happens it will be right for America to finally refuse Europe for once. It is time for America to act in its own best interest and forget about further sacrifices on Europe's behalf. It just doesn't deserve it.
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MAII
Re #85
I am 1 of the '50%' (I actually believe it was far higher) that supported the UK Government & Armed Forces backing the US-led campaign in Iraq. I
Certainly I can understand Your bitter ire in particular over the base betrayal & stark cowardice displayed at the time by Chirac's France (in particular).
Germany's disgracefully short-memory was/is inexcusable though its forces are forbidden to take part in combat overseas (whatever combat is going on in Afghanistan involving Germany's forces is illegal by international convention).
All that said, You again display a complete lack of understanding of the realpolitik World that now exists.
Do You not see Your complaint about France & Germany reveals that the USA & UK actually needed those 2 nations at their side if the Iraq episode was to have stood a beter chance of success in the longterm?
It is precisely the same now: The USA has vast fortunes invested in EUropean-UK business & they in turn have the same in the USA. If either EUrope/UK/USA were to collapse the rest would fold-up too!
Your shortsightedness is truly scary at times! The comfort is in knowing from countless other Americans that You are a windbag minority with this excessive disregard of Europe & also clearly You are unable to grasp much about basic Economics which just puts You in the same league as Dubya Bush & Sarah Palin...
Oh wait! Blimey, we had 1 ninny President, surely not another...
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@85 MA II
"Then why would the majority of Western Europeans object so strenuously? Because they wanted to see America attacked again right after 9-11? These are the only conclusions I can draw and many other Americans I know feel the same way."
MA II, so far, I really acknowledged your opinions, sometimes grudgingly, and some of your views I shared. But not and never this one. I'd wish, you'd feel that this accusation went one step too far, and I'd really love to read an apology of yours. This statement of yours is incredibly insulting and wrong.
Ash
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
In #81 MaxSceptic asks:
"So in which elections can we vote to dispose of Barroso?"
That's a very good and a very timely question indeed.
Unfortunately, I suspect that you know the answer as well as I do.
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Re #82 "One problem: There is no 'European people'."
Max, right again.
Even in minute Belgium the Flemish don't want to subsidize Walloons anymore.
Basques demand to be given their own country feeling neither Spanish, nor French.
Catalans don't feel Spanish either. [never have]
Forget Scotts.
There never was, nor is it now any 'European identity'.
Europe is not U.S. In other words - it's not a melting pot.
No matter how many pathetic lies Mr. Barroso keeps promulgating.
To save his own job and perks.
[He sure doesn't have any political future in his native Portugal]
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@85 MAII
"But it wasn't just the governments who wanted to stop America from defending itself, an estimated 90% of all Western Europeans and 50% of Brits were against it too. Why would France's and Germany's governments do that? My guess is because powerful people in their countries were making money out of circumventing the UN sanctions."
How about: a lot of people didn`t and still don´t see how 5000 dead people in the world trade centers justified an invasion of Iraq.
Now, if you take a look at the death statistics, you see that for those 5000 dead on American soil, over one million people died in Iraq since the invasion.
Next place: Afghanistan. Your government went in and supplied muslim fanatics with training and weaponry to stop the USSR.
Later those people set up a government and violently suppressed the people and their human rights. But nobody in the west cared.
Until the twin towers collapsed.
And now we, the morally invincible western world is there to save the day!
So here we go again: 5000 dead on american soil. Millions dead after the USA took charge of the matter.
But the oil contracts in Iraq and the new pipeline in Afghanistan for which US-troops are fighting right now, are probably all humanitarian acts.
I am by no means anti-Americans, it`s a great country.
But please spare us with all this "defending itself" nonsense.
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cbw;
"Certainly I can understand Your bitter ire in particular over the base betrayal & stark cowardice displayed at the time by Chirac's France (in particular).
Germany's disgracefully short-memory was/is inexcusable"
I was referring to a vote at the UN Security Council. Personally I wouldn't want to rely on the military skills of French or Germans. Considering how disgracefully underfunded and underequipped the British soldiers were, I have to wonder how much more effective they might have been in both wars had it been otherwise.
Do the Germans have a short memory? How can they have forgotten, American troops are still on their soil in very large numbers defending them from god knows who or what. For nearly fifty years tens of thousands of Americans spent part of their lives on what would have been the front lines to prevent a Soviet invasion. Trillions of dollars of American treasure was spent on defending them and America was ready to bring human life on earth to an end as the only viable threat that was capable of stopping the USSR. Do you really think they could have forgotten that so easily?
Betrayal is the correct word. In the American culture if not in American law, there is hardly a crime more heinous including premeditated murder. Benedict Arnold immediately springs to mind at the mention of the word, not Judas Iscariot.
Companies like GE, IBM, GM, are international companies now and do not have any loyalties to any nation or people. They are traded on markets all over the world, have shareholders all over the world, do business all over the world. What happens to their European holdings should Europe collapse is of no concern to me, I have no personal stake in any of them. That is only one component of their operations anyway and as we saw with GM and Ford, one of diminishing importance.
As for my feelings towards Europe, it hardly could matter less. Whatever will happen is far beyond my power to control, possibly beyond anyone's including leaders of the major powers both inside and outside Europe. The decisions that led to the present situation were made a long time ago, the currents of economics and history they created are strong and cannot be diverted by anyone now it seems. All I can do is stand by and watch. I think that is all anyone can do now including those who claim to be in charge.
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13. At 5:49pm on 28 May 2010, Joeblo wrote:
"If they were serious, the "austerity" should have started from the top.
Every politician from the top down should have taken a 30% "haircut".
I don't see politicians giving up anything."
---------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent comment.
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@86 cbw
"I am 1 of the '50%' (I actually believe it was far higher) that supported the UK Government & Armed Forces backing the US-led campaign in Iraq. I
Certainly I can understand Your bitter ire in particular over the base betrayal & stark cowardice displayed at the time by Chirac's France (in particular).
Germany's disgracefully short-memory was/is inexcusable though its forces are forbidden to take part in combat overseas (whatever combat is going on in Afghanistan involving Germany's forces is illegal by international convention)."
The war on Iraq was unconstitutional, a violation of international law and the so-called "evidence" was all fudged.
How is not believing in this fudged evidence an act of "cowardice"?
And while I am at it, I`d like to know how you people can talk about French, German or whoever "cowards" who were too frightened to go to war?
Did anyone of you who used this vocabulary on this blog so far join the military to go fight himself?
Or are you just a keyboard-warrior sitting behind your comfy desk talking big about "we went in" and stuff, while in fact you never ever had a single bullet fired at yourself in your entire life?
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@85 MA II
Addition, sry for that.
Isn't there the old saying: "The British are too polite to be honest; the Germans are too honest to be polite".
Your statement was all but polite, and I really hope, you weren't being honest but writing out of a bad temper.
Apologies from your side are, on behalf of this statement, nonetheless, due.
Ash
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ashkar;
"I'd really love to read an apology of yours. This statement of yours is incredibly insulting and wrong."
You have it backwards. It is Europe that should apologize to America. But they won't. Europeans never admit they were wrong no matter how catastrophic the results of what they do. Even today among themselves having bankrupted just about every last one of them they won't admit they made a terrible mistake. All they do is point an accusing finger at someone else, at each other, even at us when what they need most is a mirror so that they can point the blame where it belongs.
Do you think Americans didn't see the throngs of demonstrators, didn't read the polls, didn't hear the recriminations and accusatons? We saw it all and at least some of us remember. Americans have largely written Europe off as a lost cause. I wouldn't expect much sympathy from this side of the Atlantic anytime soon if I were a European. Besides, we have enough of our own problems to worry about to concern ourselves with those who once pretended to be our allies when it was in their own self interest.
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powermeerkat;
"Europe is not U.S. In other words - it's not a melting pot."
I think before long it may become a boiling pot. A pot aboil. With a tight lid the pressure cooker might just kabooom. Glad we have the Atlantic between us to be at a safe distance. I only regret it isn't as wide as the Pacific.
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Drugstore Man;
If the US showed as little resolve about the threat of the USSR during the cold war as Europe felt about Iraq and as the whole world seems to feel about Iran and North Korea today, all of Germany would be a Soviet satellite slave state to this this very minute and no better off than East Germans were before the wall fell. In retrospect I think America would have been far better off if we'd have just walked away and let it happen.
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Re Afghanistan. Your government went in and supplied muslim fanatics with training and weaponry to stop the USSR."
A patent lie.
Most of Afghan mujaheddins of the era were not Muslim fanatics.
The Lion of Panjshir Valley (Shah Masoud, assasinated later by al-Qaida)
was not one either.
Although some of Pakistani ISI officers most certainly were, and are till this very day: supporting tacitly Pakistani Taliban.
Which was born long after Soviets left, in Pakistani madrassas.
After U.S. lost interest and a vacuum in the region developped.
P.S. The less is spoken about performance of German troops in Afghanistan - the better.
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@96 MarcusAureliusII
We apologize to... well America? Could we agree on meaning the US, since America is more than the US? Mexico is also America, as well as Brazil, thx for this clarification.
Ok, apologize to the US? No way. Thank the US with all our heart? Yes, definetely. If you'd read my former posts, you'd know that I'm the last to forget what the US did for Europe. That was exactly, why I reacted so allergic to the specific post of yours. I am German, and I know, what we -and Europe- owe to the US. That's exactly, why I react as I do.
Europe has grown. We are no longer a 15 year old Europe-girl and older US-Brother of -metaphorically- 35. We are on a one-to-one-stage, and we're still brethren, and what you try to tell us here, is that we commit -or tried to commit- fratricide; and that's rubbish! We could start to discuss, whether, what you're doing in your posts points at fratricide the other way round. I hope, you're not. I am simply not able to understand your motivation to post these things, which are simply untrue.
Ash
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"Results from the Czech Republic's general election suggest centre-right parties may form the next government." [BBC
As I said before the Day of Reckoning is nigh and the Iceman's cometh
[despite claims of the Holy Prophet of the Church of Global Warming:
Al Gore: otherwise known as the inventor of Internet]
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ashkar;
"Europe has grown. We are no longer a 15 year old Europe-girl"
From where I stand, Europe looks more like a dead duck. Europe's day ended with the first world war and the final nails were put in its coffin by the second world war. Attempts by America to resuscitate it have failed. Having been taken off life support, its organs are shutting down. With 27 bullet holes in it, it's the worst case of suicide I've ever seen.
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@CBW #84
Here is the citation of Barroso: I've spoken last year to you about what I called the "intellectual glamour of pessimism". The world is now full of Cassandras. Sometimes I see in some of the English speaking literature of the euro, what I would call "wishful thinking", because they expect the euro to fail. This is not my analysis. The link to the speech is given in Gavin's article itself.
The amusing part is that Barroso is right about some of the "wishful thinking" and the "Cassandras". It suffices to read MarcusAureliusII. There he goes again about the Iraq story. Most people in the European countries were against the Iraq war, and did not see any convincing evidence of an Iraqi threat to the USA. That was all trumped up.
I agree with you that the collapse of the Euro will lead to the collapse of the US as well. The economies are too imbricated. Marcus is just dreaming about a world which does not exist. Maybe he doesn't exist himself, and behind him is a group of people playing games, just like Bourbaki.
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32. WebAliceinwonderland:
"I wonder where is the money gone in Europe and the USA; two big places, after all. I mean gone to, from. How did you do it that in both places they have? slightly shrank or ? paled away"
35. MarcusAureliusII:
"WA;
...Where did all that money go? Where did it disappear to? ... Some of it went into building houses that either couldn't be sold or the people who bought them couldn't pay for them. "
Marcus, your explanation does not make sense. If that were the problem, money would just have moved from the people who bought houses to stock holders of the banks who repossessed the houses, and to the people who build houses, etc. It would not have disappeared.
In reality, the money went to countries which produce cheaply and send their goods to the EU and the USA. Because of the worship of free world economy as started by Milton Friedman, tariffs have either totally disappeared, or at least have been greatly reduced.
Reinstitute the tariffs, two things will happen: Europeans and Americans will be able to produce at competitive rates, at least internally, and money will be spent on goods produced locally keeping the profits within the country; also, since people will buy locally produced goods there will be jobs to produce them; the people who have work will have money to spend allowing them to buy more, etc. This is called jump starting the economy; right now we have a system which destroys the economy.
Countries like China produce more cheaply for a variety of reasons:
The rate of exchange of the currencies of the world has very little to do with their buying power, and many countries are keeping their currencies at a low value deliberately (there would be some benefit if we stopped defending the euro). People in these countries have a much lower salary (with a much lower buying power), for historic reasons. They enjoy less vacation days, work more hours per day, and have less fringe benefits in general, one of them being health insurance which burdens many of the European economies, and the American one as well.
Furthermore, safety and quality standards are often ignored, while the European and American workers cannot take that risk.
Finally, in the European Union at least, a large percentage of the population behave as parasites, getting various benefits while they never get in the work force, and never planned to. Many of these people are immigrants from Africa who send the loot to their extended family back in Africa.
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@96 MAII
YOU have it backwards. It is America that should apologize to the world. But they won't. Americans never admit they were wrong no matter how catastrophic the results of what they do.
That explains 9/11 and the lack if support for the Iraq war
Pick any region in the world randomly and you might remember what the US did there, at least once, since 1945. And it certainly was wrong ...
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Re:"Memory served badly in this case, I fear. Last time they [Germans] did it -and peacefully- was in 1989, when the Eastern German Population on the streets of the GDR forced the socialist dictatorship to give up."
No really.
It was Ronald Reagan who accelerated Soviet Union's collapse.
Gorbatchev had no choice but to retrench trying to save USSR itself.
[he failed anyway]
East German "comrades" left to fend for themselves had no chance in hell to prevail after HUNGARIANS decided to open their border for E. German refugees.
BTW. I don't think this time Germans will riot in the streets, either.
They'll just grudginly follow orders of whoever's in charge in Berlin.
As usual.
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@ 102 MarcusAureliusII
"From where I stand, Europe looks more like a dead duck. Europe's day ended with the first world war and the final nails were put in its coffin by the second world war. Attempts by America to resuscitate it have failed. Having been taken off life support, its organs are shutting down. With 27 bullet holes in it, it's the worst case of suicide I've ever seen."
Perhaps, you should reconsider, where you stand. Maybe, you stand on an island of illusion yourself. The European economy is strong, and, acknowledged, European dept is incredibly high (US American is considerable as well), and it'll need great efforts to do sth "European", especially, since doing something "European" is completeley out-off fashion...
However, considering the whole situation, US America is in far deeper troubles. I'm not sure, whether your position is at all constructive.
I'm not too sure, whether it wasn't the US who took their bullet lately... I hope not. Time for a change.
Ash
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DurstTigerMann
Re #94 & "The war on Iraq was:
..unconstitutional.." - - says who? what constitution?
..a violation of international law.." - - says who? prove it?
..so-called 'evidence' was all fudged.." - - what evidence? If You refer to the WMD every National Security Agency suggested they existed - - that they clearly did not is no proof of anything about the political-military decisions except the policies were based on incredibly poor intelligence gathering.
I'm not going to rehearse again my views on the France Armed Forces - - suffice to say I trust You have understood my contempt is primarily for their Elysee Palace 'political' masters - - I still have contacts in the UK-US Armed Forces and assure You no French Unit could ever be billeted alongside either Nationality at this time without the most grievous trouble breaking out - - such is the lack of respect among NATO allies!
To answer Your question: UK 4 Para, 1972-81, 3 tours N.Ireland, UK Military attache in Scandinavia, plus NATO training exercises from Norway to West Germany, the States and the Med, plus stationed for adventures in Hong Kong & Far East. No I was nothing special, just a lower rank officer & happy to have done that small bit alongside some very fine men.
IMO not that Forces service is actually a measure of anything: I accept Your views & perspectives are different from mine. I do that irrespective of Your experience in any walk of life. Being a Civilian or ex/service neither qualifies nor disqualifies from the right to hold and present an opinion on any issue.
At 60+ years I most certainly am a keyboard warrior these days & do indeed sit vrey comfiortably in a recliner on many occasions. I know I use strong condemnatory language on this issue - - MAII is unfortunately correct - - Iraq was a turning point in US - EUropean relations.
I just happen to believe the worst excesses of MAII's attitude is not carried over into present Oval Office-Pentagon policies although on the strength of Pres Obama's first year it would seem EUrope has indeed burnt a good many bridges. For all our sakes we need wiser counsels than MAII to prevail in the White House, London, Berlin, Paris, Brussels etc.
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#106 Powermeerkat:
Please, President Reagan doesn't deserve all of the credit. Or even much of it for that matter. Russia would have collapsed no matter who was president.
The collapse of the Soviet Union began with Truman Doctrine. That doctrine, pursued by subsequent presidents, along with the space race and the arms race finally bandrupted the USSR and caused its collapse. President Regan's star war's initiative may have been the last straw, but it wasn't the only straw.
In the end, it nearly bankrupted the US too.
The real credit should go to US taspayers who paid the bills and US soldiers who enforce the doctrine
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@98 MAII
"If the US showed as little resolve about the threat of the USSR during the cold war as Europe felt about Iraq and as the whole world seems to feel about Iran and North Korea today, all of Germany would be a Soviet satellite slave state to this this very minute and no better off than East Germans were before the wall fell. In retrospect I think America would have been far better off if we'd have just walked away and let it happen."
The Soviet Union collapsed, because it was bankrupt and because of Glasnost & Perestroika. The downfall was inevitable.
Therefore, your assumption that all of Germany would be a part of it to this day is ludicrous.
And I don`t want to imagine how delighted the French would have been with the whole of Germany in soviet hands and their country as the designated battlefield.
That you compare this situation to what happened in Iraq is just laughable.
You seem to look at any event in American history only in one way: "we saved the day big time!"
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@102 MA II
There is still an apology owing, only for the thesis "Then why would the majority of Western Europeans object so strenuously? Because they wanted to see America attacked again right after 9-11? These are the only conclusions I can draw and many other Americans I know feel the same way."
Everything else is -at least- fine with me, disputable, however, but here, I'll have you by the short and curlies...!!
Ash
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Can we please replace that dumbass Barroso by someone who is actually at least one of both:
- intelligent and the right person for the position
and / or
- accepted by the majority of the Europeans?
Barroso is neither!
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@ 106 powermeerkat
"It was Ronald Reagan who accelerated Soviet Union's collapse."
I won't deny that the US government had influence on this revolution.
"Gorbatchev had no choice but to retrench trying to save USSR itself."
Agreed. However, do I really have to remind you, that during the 40th anniversary of the GDR, the people shouted the name of Gorbatschow? The Sovjet Union held her breath and did nothing, when the German people demanded their freedom in 1989!
>East German "comrades" left to fend for themselves had no chance in >hell to prevail after HUNGARIANS decided to open their border for E. >German refugees.
Well, they could have sent Tanks, but they didn't. That's exactly the point. This revolution was successfull and peacefull, and it was a Eastern European revolution, and a German in a first result.
>BTW. I don't think this time Germans will riot in the streets, either.
Don't be to sure.
>They'll just grudginly follow orders of whoever's in charge in Berlin.
For the time being. Agreed. Until they're fed up.
Ash
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cool_brush_work wrote:
"DurstTigerMann
Re #94 & "The war on Iraq was:
..unconstitutional.." - - says who? what constitution?
..a violation of international law.." - - says who? prove it?
..so-called 'evidence' was all fudged.." - - what evidence?"
With respect, CBW, can you perceive how you come across here?
I have seen a lot of people tell a lot of stories that were not true. I have seen all manner of person, male and female, young and old, rich and poor, try to hide things from themselves and the world.
Your questions are not a sincere expression. They are are a cloak to hide reality from your preferred fantasies.
You sound, if you will excuse the analogy, like a fourteen year old school boy denying he has stolen someone's lunch, and who knows he can deny it with impunity because he is the bigger child and he has eaten the evidence. "Prove it.", you say. It is appallingly immature reasoning, and it betrays a willful desire to create a fantasy reality around yourself. At your age, it is regrettable and more than slightly ridiculous.
However, I do understand the sentiment. For some people nationalism and a faith in great institutions is all they have to cheer them up. Not everyone has the intestinal fortitude to look at the world and describe only what they see. Some of us need heros and unicorns.
But in future, out of respect for yourself, please do not talk about the Iraq war. Have your own version of reality, by all means, but just don't try and legitimize what happened. It is very much bad enough that it happened, without people who have no interest the matter, except to fantasize in order to bring themselves feelings of pleasure, commenting and advocating to promote the scandal and the wanton butchery as a noble endeavor.
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Eurovision goes on now - By The Way!!!
(Oslo TV channel broadcasting)
http://www.eurovision.tv/esctv/main
So far I liked George Duboby :o) and "Opa Opa Opa !" Greek happy song sure thing :o) though I suspect too happy :o))))
we are 20th, now Iceland with the red volcano :o) and I wonder if I missed Germany all say a good girl
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Well, I've just had a breath of fresh air, whilst in my local I saw two young people posting posters for a new Parti populaire that I have not seen until now so I went and spoke to them. It seems that some Belgians are fed up with the bulls**t of the current party's and these two young people (one girl and one guy) are on the list as Suppleants. Don't ask me what that means as that is one of the bizarre quirks of this PR system, however whether they can reunite the Flemish fanatics and the passive Wallons is by no means sure. But my parting comment was that I wished them the best of luck in the Belgian elections on the 13th June. Maybe Barroso needs a breath of fresh air and an exposure to democracy as well!
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Strange shape of Georgia in the laser cloud in Eurovision, didn't recognise it, like a long narrow snake!?
Surely it isn't.
Ukr girl in a transparent night-gown was nice :o)
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#107 Ashkar:
Before you dismiss Marcus completely, let me say that to this day I won't buy a bottle of french wine, a block of french cheese, or anything else french for that matter. Besides I can get as good or better from elsewhere. To me, the french are the most self-serving, smug, arrogant, and opportunistic people on the planet. A whinging, grasping lot who would betray anyone for their own gain.
Is mine an extreme view? Yes. Is it wrong? Not entirely. It's just overstated.
After WWI the french dismantled anything and everything of value in Germany and shipped it to france. Along with other onerous post war reparations policies (which the US opposed), their actions probably set the stage for WWII. After WWII they wanted to do the same thing again and the US told them no. And since the US was in a position to enforce that "no" the french didn't have any choice. Just one more thing the french haven't forgiven the US for. During WWII the french managed to fight on both sides. Go figure. It's not just what the french did after September 11 2001, it's what they always do that makes them so hard to like.
So are the few things I've just mentioned--there are more that could be mentioned--a bit extreme, unfair even, yes, maybe they are. Am I painting france with too broad a brush. Yes, almost certainly. And no, I don't really hate the french (not that they would care one way or the other)or france, but I do find them disagreeably hard to like and to tolerate.
I don't understand why the EU puts up with the french. It seems like they only want to lead and take and when they can't do that they lose interest it it.
If your view is different, and it probably is, please share it with me. I'm open to changing my opinions.
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62.threnodio_II wrote: How about the European Parliament doing their job by vetoing the budget and keeping on sending it back until it is a manageable figure.
The socalled European 'Parliament' has been demanding far more money for quite some time. In fact, they want the EU budget to be increased to some 5-7% of GDP. If they had their way, as mentioned before, national democracy would be abolished.
77.John_from_Hendon wrote: The 'solution' to Europe's version of the global financial meltdown is democracy. Let the people of Europe elect their President and executive on the basis of one person one vote... I would also like to see the rabid extremists in the press (and on this blog) argue against democracy.
One slight problem. There is no EU-demos so there cannot be EU-democracy. Democracy belongs on the national level with the elected national parliaments. There is no need for an extra supranational level.
No demos = no democracy
Would you give your neighbours money if they voted 20-6 that they felt you had to pay up? No? Because it isn't democracy, exactly. Well, the EU works exactly like that, 20 robber-countries voting to take more money from 7 bank clerk countries. It is not, nor has it ever been democratic.
People tend to make mistakes like that many times. But just because there's an election doesn't mean its democracy. Heck, there was just an election for European dictator, and apparently I got 100% of the vote, I demand you all respect this democratic vote! Turnout was bad but who cares, the voter turned up early this morning ;-)
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Watching that too Alice and I guess you haven't missed Lena ;-) #22 was only just on
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@108 cbw
"..unconstitutional.." - - says who? what constitution?
..a violation of international law.." - - says who? prove it?
..so-called 'evidence' was all fudged.." - - what evidence? If You refer to the WMD every National Security Agency suggested they existed - - that they clearly did not is no proof of anything about the political-military decisions except the policies were based on incredibly poor intelligence gathering."
It is unconstitutional under the premise that there were no WMD in Iraq.
Even though the failure to change UN-resolution 1441 to authorize the use of force, the USA launched an offensive war against Iraq.
For further reference, take a look at the UN-charta art 2.4
As for the national agencies finding evidence:
Scott Ritter, a UN-inspector, said otherwise. For years.
And this man was not a friend of Hussein or Iraq, but the most obstinate inspector.
Neither UNMOVIC nor UNSCOM did not find any evidence on WMD.
Basically, there was no proof, except for a few fancy sattelite pictures, but the USA and BG invaded anyway.
"IMO not that Forces service is actually a measure of anything: I accept Your views & perspectives are different from mine. I do that irrespective of Your experience in any walk of life. Being a Civilian or ex/service neither qualifies nor disqualifies from the right to hold and present an opinion on any issue.
At 60+ years I most certainly am a keyboard warrior these days & do indeed sit vrey comfiortably in a recliner on many occasions."
It is not about the service itself, of course.
I asked whether one of you people has ever been under enemy fire.
Because that`s what happens to those soldiers stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan. They get shot at and they might die.
And if someone calls others cowards, because they don`t want to fight a war, he better take a gun and hurry there himself is my line.
Now to the question whether Europe is a friend of the USA or not:
Is someone who doesn`t help his friend with committing a crime a bad friend? If someone walks up to me and my friend and kicks him against the shin, I won`t help him take a knife and stab that guy. Instead, I`d try to stop him from using excessive force.
Well, maybe you will find my analogy stupid.
But the invasion of Iraq of Afghanistan was equally stupid and certainly not an act of self-defense.
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d_m;
I don't known what made the French madder, the rapid easy defeat they suffered by the Wermacht, the uselessness of their European logic Maginot Line, and the brutal occupation of the Nazis,...or...the humiliation of having been "liberated" by the Americans...for the second time in less than 30 years. One thing you can say about America having liberated them, they've never forgiven us for it.
Barosso can no more save the EUSSR than Gorbachev could save the USSR. The enormous stresses from the multitude of internal contradictions and the propagation of many stress fractures by external forces caused both to collapse. Two very badly conceived ideas, both fated to fail, both entirely and quintessentially European in concept, and both unwilling to learn from the lessons of history. I've been saying this would happen for the longest time and now it is happening. The US existed perfectly well without Europe from its independence until WWI and it can again. A world without a European superstate will hardly know the difference.
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119. At 9:40pm on 29 May 2010, mvr512 wrote:
"One slight problem. There is no EU-demos so there cannot be EU-democracy. Democracy belongs on the national level with the elected national parliaments. There is no need for an extra supranational level."
If I remember well, at least when I lived there, the UK is a supranational level of the 4 home nations...
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Buzet23: A suppléant is a substitute, or stand-in. Perhaps it works like the “first runner-up”, “second runner-up”, &c. in a beauty contest; if for whatever reason the elected candidate must step aside, then the highest-ranking suppléant would fill the vacancy, rather than needing to hold a by-election to fill it.
d_m: One explanation for French actions at Versailles in 1919 might be found in German actions at Frankfurt in 1871.
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#108 CBW
Were you so blind as not to see Colin Powell squirming in his chair at the UN showing the WMD photos ?
It was not only insulting to him but also to the WORLD. Newspapers all over the world also had that opinion.
You continually justify your existence with British Nationalism and Military matters, while the British people ´have never had it so bad´ and it will get much worse them.
But if they dutifully raise the flag, take pride in a 21 gun salute and ponder Britains´ glory, they won´t feel the pain ?
Britain as all other European countries are third rate Military powers. Britain appears not to have accepted that fact.
If you want a German military as strong as its industry then say so. If not, then stop your stupid comments !
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118. At 9:33pm on 29 May 2010, d_m wrote
"I don't understand why the EU puts up with the french. It seems like they only want to lead and take and when they can't do that they lose interest it it."
I wouldn't say that France loses interest in Europe, ever. It's her baby.
On one hand, the French are like the Brits, they have problems to accept that they are not world powers any more.
On the other hand they deal differently with it.
While the UK appears to be the lap-dog of the US, following blindly, and feeling strong, by barking at everybody, France opposes everything the US says and do which gives her the feeling of power.
For a EUropean who has lived in both countries it is very amusing...
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#119 mvr512
You have just criticized the British election process !
And I aree with you on both counts.
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#82. MaxSceptic wrote:
#119. mvr512 wrote:
(précis)"There is no European people."
The people of Europe are far far less of a mongrel race than those of the USA for example yet they seem to be able to elect a President. So I fundamentally disagree with you both! Back to your tabloid editors trough guys!
One person one vote for me as President of Europe!!!!!!
Seriously though, why is it that we are not allowed to vote for our President? How come a cabal of Prime-ministers and Presidents of the states get a vote and we don't? We must rise up and demand our rights.
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The battle of ideas seems to be a battle between Brussel's idea that Germany will do everything within its power to save the Euro and risk it all while Merkel's idea is that she is caught between the EU powers and German banks who are pushing her to do just that and German voters and ordinary citizens who clearly don't want her to risk their money doing it. But it strikes me that regardless of which way the wind blows the Euro is doomed. I think Merkel will try to thread a path between the two extremes but in the end will commit most of Germany's money in a failed effort to save the Euro.
What would a world without the EU and Euroland as a major player look like? Those who export to Europe in a very big way like China and Japan will find their incomes significantly lower. Those who export moderately to Europe but are net importers themselves will have their exports reduced but will find opportunities in capturing markets for their own products from European companies that will fail. On balance they will do better. I'd bet Boeing is a very good long term buy. If and when EADS for example fails, all of those orders for Airbus A350s and A380s will go to Boeing instead. Europe's loss will be America's gain. Also the price of energy and other raw materials will decrease and remain low as upward price pressure on them is reduced. Bad news for Russia unless it can export more of its fossil fuels to China. Still the price will be lower. If there ever is a multipolar world, Europe will not be one of the poles.
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@ #118 D_M
"Before you dismiss Marcus completely,"
I'd never, because I like his 'other point of view', unless he get's insulting.
"let me say that to this day I won't buy a bottle of french wine, a block of french cheese, or anything else french for that matter. Besides I can get as good or better from elsewhere. To me, the french are the most self-serving, smug, arrogant, and opportunistic people on the planet. A whinging, grasping lot who would betray anyone for their own gain."
It's not just overstated, it's not just extreme. It's funny, in a certain way. I don't laugh at you, please be aware of that. I'm just remembering... I went to Britain in spring 06 ... and in summer 06 there was the footy world championship in Germany. And I had a chat with the porter at the university gate, and he said something along the lines of "Well, we hate the French. And second, the Germans, no offence meant." And even though, these words were a bit... radical.. I spent two years there and found the English to be incredibly friendly and hospitable. So... I'm reluctant to believe your words, D_M.
A friend of mine, during the time in the UK was French, and did her PhD in the UK. I never encountered any hostility towards her, as a French, neither to me, a German.
Hence, I can comfort you, d_m, nothing wrong, Frensh, British and German are still close friends, at least those, who know each other...
Ash
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If the Euro goes into free fall and German efforts fail, what are the odds that Turkey will be invited to join in hopes that its money can be martialed to continue the fight to save it?
Shortly after Merkel took office, she visited President Bush and tried to persuade him the US should join the EU. Do you think she saw this coming? Her worst nightmare come true. Let's not forget also that German courts gave very light sentences to Islamic terrorists because US intelligence officers would not reveal details of important American national security secrets about what the US knew and methods it used in open court in Germany. Our good friends. Along with Britain who released Megrahi "on humanitarian grounds." We haven't forgotten that either.
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Seraphim sure, Lena is a good name :o)))))))))))))))
Plays a bit like Marlen Dietrich well as she can :o), as min blac stockings and ? rough voice
a bit like that British girl I like normally what is her name? Lily something ? I like that one
and a bit of Slav charm in the name Lena :o))))
so all combined I mean how could Lena not win?!?
To rename the song from satellite to sputnik and it's ideal :o)))))
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Overall (for MA and other extraterraneous, outlandish? how to say, chaps, who hasn't had the luck of their life to see the political voting :o))))
It goes as usual.
Belarus gave 8 points to Israel who would doubt LOL
10 to Ukraine and 12 you know to who.
This gives one an idea who lives in Belarus without any scientific research :o)))))
Turkey gave 12 points to Azerbajan and Azerbajan 12 points to Turkey
O SURPRISE :o))))
Greece-Cyprus 12/12
Iceland gave 12 to Denmark :o))))
Russia gave 12 pointss to Armenia SURPRISE SURPRISE :o)))))))
10 to Georgia now this is a surprise
and 8 to Azerbajan
I suspect the q-ty of Georgians and Azerbajanee in Russia must have? tripled :o)))) as min :o)))) from last year
Simply wonder of any one is left at home in these two countries :o))))
(because Russia-Armenia swaps are traditional, year to year. It's same obvious sympathy as Nordics to Nordics or Turks to Azerbajan)
Norway gave 12 points to Denmark
Moldova - 8 to Ukraine, 10 to Russia, 12 to Romania
(again, check out who lives in Moldova without extra science applied :o))))
Britain awarded 10 points to Turkey (oj. Nik. :o))))) shouldn't have mentioned :o)))))
but Nik - Britain gave 12 (t w e l v e ) points to GREECE!
(where the world is going to)
Armenia gave 8 to Ukraine, 10 to Russia and 12 to Georgia neighbours
I liked Opa Opa Opa jumping and the Sputnik Lena song and the Apricot stone Armenian girl (because she is Russian :o)))) OK, OK Armenian, just lives here but then who doesn't :o))))
And I liked the surname Dubovy (oak-y) :o)))) of the British boy but apparently not many others did Britain should do something where is that Lily - she'd have won it all!
Russia did 11th or 12th this year, some place in the middle, courtesy of USSR.
And Israel - who said "Our 10? 12? forgot points - go to Bif Mummy Russia" :o)))))))
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Protest against the Eurovision!!!
Where is my vote?
Angela Merkel is certainly behind all this. She thought that anyway if Greeks or Irish or Portuguese win the competition they will be staging fiestas next year with EU's money... so better Germany win it and organise it the next year so she knows what she will be paying for... haha!!!
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Drugstore man #121;
I don't know if you actually believe the propaganda you've been fed and just spouted off but the fact that much of Europe believes the lies you've repeated is why the relationship between Europe and the United States is now at an end. Believe whatever you like but know that there are dire consequences that have impacted that relationship as a result. These lies about America first promulgated by Schroeder and then by Chirac in their cynical bids to win elections has had an impact that will be felt for generations to come. They began telling them even before 9-11 and certainly before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. They were part of a trade war Europe was losing and has now lost. That is why Europe was so keen on Kyoto, it was a way to damage America's economy if it complied, make it look like the enemy of stopping global warming if it didn't (where is Europe's rhetoric now that China is the number one producer of CO2?) At the very least, Americans now know through experience that they cannot trust Europeans nor count on them not only to give assistance or just political support but to just stay out of the way when they won't. More good reasons for America to stay far away from Europe's economic problems. 94-0 Drugstore man, that was the vote in the US Senate earlier this month to withhold money from the IMF for bailing out Greece if a plan with a high probability of success could not be fashioned. That means zero dollars from the US. You broke it, fix it yourselves.
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I think it's because whole British Commonwealth is beyond seven seas does not part-take in Eurovision that is the problem.
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And of course it is noce of course to get 3 big marks from USSR-ians, but the q-ty of 3-4-5 points for Russia was small this year which means NOBODY UNDERSTOOD Russian humour :o)))))
The thing is we had a chap who was singing a sad song Here I am, Lost and Forgotten aaaah, holding in hands a photo of his love, alternatively thinking to toss it into fire or what to do. Finally threw it away :o))))
Here I am, Lord of Mercy! (aaaaah)
Now he was fooling around :o)))), because you can't, like an idiot :o)))), stand silly with a pic in hands :o)))))
- but everyone took it straightforward! for the exterior signs! like, the chap is "first time in love" (just look at him! :o)))) (2nd wife :o)))) accompanied him to Euro :o))))
to say nothing it's her photo he threw out :o))))
Anyway.
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"Shortly after Merkel took office, she visited President Bush and tried to persuade him the US should join the EU."
I assume you have again no proof whatsoever of your blantant lies Marcus do you?
"Seriously though, why is it that we are not allowed to vote for our President? How come a cabal of Prime-ministers and Presidents of the states get a vote and we don't? We must rise up and demand our rights."
In an election your new president would most likely have been someone German simply by being the country with the most inhabitants :-) Would you have prefered that? An even stronger Germany within the EU.
~~~~~~~
I am right now happy that Lena really won the ESC. Though I did expect something in the top 10 (which would have been a major succes considering the last years of being always among the last3) the first place was everything but expected!
Did you like the song Alice ;-) ?
I feel somewhat sorry for the UK to end up last because Belarus sneaked past in the last moment by a single 12 points from neighbours, but the era of the boybands has ended about 10 years ago in continental Europe. Ireland was within my top 5 so I really wonder how they ended up in such a bad position :-(
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WA;
Don't you miss the good old days when television was television in Russia? The time when the latest five year plan and advances in Soviet agriculture were the features of the evening? None of this song fest and ice skating Western decadance in those days :-)
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Actually from the style I would compare Kate Nash more with her than Lily Allen. She even sung Foundations in the national qualification and though I like the song I think her version was superior. As it is only available on a German page I doubt I can post the url here. If you want to have a look just google for "Lena" and "Foundations" (maybe use .de google for it - first hit then). Should be something with "Unser Star für Oslo" and the 2 fist minutes are interview. I think about 8 other songs are available on the same page "Neopolitan Dreams" is also very good.
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WA;
I am sorry to tell you this but I think Russian humor was much funnier during the Soviet era. The wry wit and irony that characterized it as an expression of the plight of Soviets seems to be a thing of the past. Joe Adamoff in his program Moscow Mailbag I gave you a link to told jokes after the end of the Soviet era that were funny because they were so corny and stupid. Reminded me of the 1970s American TV show Hee-Haw. I'm sorry but Russian jokes no longer seem funny to me anymore. Capitalism has ruined Russia's sense of humor.
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@134 Nik
I like you humour...
I wonder where EUprisoner is... rethinking the value of an UK referendum (televoting in this case) where a future loser wins???
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Now; this is a musical group that WON the national Russia's Eurovision contest - he OUGHT to have been in Oslo tonight - but were EXCLUDED likely because of the age, by the jury, who had the final word on who will be Russia's participant in Oslo.
But they WON the public vote.
Meet Buran Babushkas (a village in Udmurtia, Russia's region). Ordinary babushka-s. Here they sing Beatles, translated into Udmurtian.
Hold your breath.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n-7KCHFoqw&feature=related
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126. At 10:37pm on 29 May 2010, oeichler wrote:
"... the Brits ... have problems to accept that they are not world powers any more."
EUpris: What a load of rubbish! The above is a standard German-"EU"-lovers phrase. I was hearing and reading the same claptrap when I lived in Germany about thirty years ago. Sometimes I think they must have a book of such standard rubbishy phrases to try to distract from the obscenity of their beloved "EU".
The "EU" is a sick, arrogant, wasteful, arrogant, useless, pain-in-the-wotsit, expensive, dangerous, nauseating, anti-democratic, megalomaniac, pompous, smug, unnecessary, truth-denying monstrosity.
If the "EU" were to become merely totally useless, that would be a vast improvement.
In an attempt to deflect from these facts, the "EU" and its adorers invent some load of rubbish to explain away the totally justified opposition.
It is the "EU" which is concerned about being a world power, not the UK.
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128. At 10:45pm on 29 May 2010, John_from_Hendon wrote:
" ... We must rise up and demand our rights."
EUppris: We must demand the right to the referendum we were promised and which about 82% of the British people want.
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22. At 10:21pm on 29 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
" ... the French ..., the uselessness of their European logic Maginot Line, ..."
EUpris: The "EU" is an economic version of the Maginot Line.
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@John_frm_Hendon,
You said the word 'mongrel' when discussing the USA.
Ummmm....Hitler said that word numerous times (Yes, I'm American and can read) about America during WWII ummmmmm NUMEROUS times....
I want you to write 10 times on the blackboard with chalk.
"The USA is a nation of many intermingled peoples from many different places on the Earth."
(Im over the Gulf spill for the moment...)
Now, I realize you meant nothing insulting,
Just Saying....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Sarah Phlegm;
"I assume you have again no proof whatsoever of your blantant lies Marcus do you?"
I have no time to waste with you. Look it up, it was in the news. Astonishing. At the same time Merkel was here inviting the US to join the EU, the leader of Austria was telling the Turks they would never be allowed to join because Turkey wasn't part of Europe. Now that is what I call the European mental process, the engine behind the European way of life that invented this mess in the first place.
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#11 oeichler
You are trying to split hairs !!!
Because the EU was born out of pre 1945 history , doesn't make it a guaranteed success . It was a recepy for just six adjoining mainland states all of whom had severely suffered and had been defeated in WWII . Had those six countries formed their union in the 1950s , it might have worked ; today with 27 countries , I believe it will not .
You State ," Relations are not even harmonious within nation states ".
So what hope is their for the EU to succeed ?
I am English , I have live a number of years in Italy and speak fluent Italian ; my Anglo/American daughter is married to a German and they live in Berlin .
I have travelled in a number of European counties , where apart from Vienna , I have found people very friendly and kind . In Italy I had friends from nearly every European country . I used to say to them , when we all lunched and partied together , " Never Mind the politics ,
" THIS " is the European Union .
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#122 MAII:
I agree, they've never forgiven us and no doubt never will. But that's ok. We'll just have to rise above that. Oh wait, we all ready have.
#124 Jan_Keeskop:
The Treaty of Franfurt, I looked it up. Good point. Should have guessed it, I suppose. No doubt there is a long history of provocative acts between them. Thanks for the information.
#126 Oeichler:
A seriously plausible explanation. Completely credible. Plus I like it. However, I don't know anyone who thinks of the British as lap dogs. I certainly don't. They seem to follow their own instincts when it suits them. And that's as it should be. As with the Germans. The French on the other hand are always predictable.
#130 Ashkar:
If you could see me, you'd see I'm smiling. I'm glad you found some humor in it. I intended some, although I do find the French difficult and irritating. I don't mind countries disagreeing with the US, even France. But when the disagreeing seems so gratuitous and disingenuous, so calculated to score points without regard for the issue at hand, then it's hard to see beyond the treachery. Or as the saying goes: with friends like you, who needs enemies....
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Seraphim85: Perhaps MarcusAureliusII had interpreted the proposed harmonisation of EU and US regulatory standards as an offer for the US to join the EU?
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36. At 02:36am on 29 May 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:
I have been seeing the word "populism" repeatedly in the German-language press in connection with the "EU" and also on this blog from Herr Mathiasen. It seems to mean democracy.
In case you don’t have a dictionary here is what Oxford’s explains:
Type of politics that claims to represent the opinions and wishes of ordinary people.
It follows from this that non-ordinary people are not taken care of. We therefore know a populist as a person that confuses decisions including election results with interest clashes between the people and the elite. A bait that often works between people with little education.
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To all Germans here - Congrantulations on the Eurovision win! .....by chance , did you guys and girls find the Spanish entry entertaining? :)))
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#40 MAII
Sometimes your comments are way over the top . I wouldn't want to dampen you ardent patriotism ; re an earlier comment , many of the very clever people , doctors , scientists , have come from abroad , even Europe .
Your comment #40 above , is spot on .
In defence of Barosso , even though my view of him might not be accepted by the moderators ; What is the poor man to do ; he has taken on a job with rosy prospects and enviable salary , that is an impossible uphill task .
You write of Hitler believing in victory almost to the end .
If Barosso were really honest , he should come out and say ," Sorry Chaps , I have done my best , but this EU federal state idea simply isn't going to work ; best to abandon this project and look for another way of uniting the People of Europe .
I used to have an article by Margot Walstrom(sp) cut out from The Sunday Times . At the head of the article was a cartoon , dipicting the EU Building at Brussels , you could see two bureaucrats inside . One bureaucrat says to the other ," The EU would be fine , if it weren't for all the Europeans ".
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Mathiasen wrote:
"In case you don’t have a dictionary here is what Oxford’s explains:
Type of politics that claims to represent the opinions and wishes of ordinary people.
It follows from this that non-ordinary people are not taken care of."
No, it doesn't. It doesn't follow at all. Especially because in this context the "non-ordinary" people are very well equipped to take care of themselves.
Mathiasen the wrote:
" We therefore know a populist as a person that confuses decisions including election results with interest clashes between the people and the elite. A bait that often works between people with little education."
So we can take you to be saying that the elite, meaning those people with a lot of education, do not take this bait. The elite know that "decisions including election results" (this is the most outstanding euphemism for the EU I've ever heard) are not a clash between elites and the people.
Mathiasen, I don't know whether to pity you or envy you. On the one hand you are so extraordinarily intelligent and well educated, so refined and such a high quality individual. But then on the other hand you are beset on all sides by common fools and people of low breeding. It must be a very hard life, being so wonderfully groomed for quality society, and yet having to mix with the lower orders.
But still, that is the burden of the nobility, is it not? To care for the lower orders of humanity who are too wretched and vulgar to behave decently.
I picture you holding handkerchief to you nose, and turning your head away from the keyboard slightly, every time you grace us with your presence on this blog. Your sacrifice is noble and kind hearted. To impart your special wisdom on such a ruffian crowd of untermensch, that takes a really kind heart and a strong will.
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#55 Jean Luc
Are you a student of Political Science ?
Theory is one thing , practical application is another .
Proportional Representation opens the door to a wider range of political parties . The Lib/Dems belief that it will automatically open the door to them to have an active part in government may be mistaken . If there is PR , more people will vote , say UKIP or BNP and those parties may stand a good chance of being a segment of the government along with the Lib/Dems who might not have any bigger representation than they do now .
PR suggests a wider democracy , but in fact creates weaker government .
The people vote for their cause , even if it is not a benefit to the country as a whole . Italy is a country in question with PR , about 16 parties sit in parliament ; their contradictory divisive views , make the country almost completely ungovernable .
For example , many Italians vote Communist because that is the party of the WWII Partisans , that their fathers and grandfathers supported .
In my view , it would be better for Italy to have the Communist Party in power , to see for real what they would do . My guess is the people wouldn't like it .
It is for the members of a political party to choose their leader ; not the general public at large .
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Smroet
Re #103
I agree most Europeans did not side with the USA on the Iraq issue: However, I was 1 that did and still do.
IMO MAII seldom manages to pull together a coherent argument/viewpoint on any topic & this 'Iraq' etc. is just one in a very long line from him.
That said, the failure to side with the USA leaves no doubt in my mind it was a serious international breech of faith and a strategic error by most of EU Europe deliberately instigated by the axis-of-ill-intent in Paris-Berlin.
I read on here the blatant anti-USA stance of several 'pro-EU' supporters & there's also no doubt at all to my mind they are in danger of betraying the security of continental Europe: Such incredibly short military perspective and in this day & age duplicitous EU political-memory will come back to haunt EUropeans.
DemocThreat
Re #114
No "..fantasies.." at all.
You, DurstM etc. have a view & I have mine:
There was/is intense argument over the legaility of the Iraq Campaign; for every legal mind You find suggesting it was illegal I can present an alternative legal opinion.
Nothing that I have read, seen, heard persuades me that the Iraq Campaign from the PM Blair-UK perspective was anything other than the correct strategic & political choice of standing at the side of our best ally. Keeping to a commitment to a longterm partner unlike the poseurs in Paris & Berlin.
Doubtless when the UK Chilcott Enquiry is complete & its findings made known we will all row about this again from positions & seek to justify/support our view - - that's not 'fantasy' by me or You, that's a difference of opinion.
No, I certainly won't excuse the 14yr old schoolboy analogy: Frankly, as I read that I just thought what a crock of nonsense from You; it exposed Your lack of reason & Your attempt to demean my view.
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#60 Oustnewlabour
A Brilliant Idea , Sack ALL the EU commissioners , the Bureaucrats and disolve the parliament .
Sell off or demolish the EU Offices a Brussels , the Parliament building at Strasbourg and the European Courts of Law .
A Huge amount of money would be saved !
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Incidentally, am I the only one who thinks there is something chilling about song contests between "nations"?
Call me old fashioned, but I thought nationalism and art were removed from each other by the factor of intelligence.
I noticed that the award was given to "Germany", rather than to the individual artist. Odd. Very, very odd.
And curious timing, because last night I watched "Tupac: resurrection", the documentary about a massively influential artist, the son of black panthers in the USA, who was roundly condemned for pointing out the reality within his own nation, instead of pretending it did not exist as artists are expected to do by their political betters.
Folks can criticize the USA all they want, but it does have a tradition of free art and free expression. It produces the art the rest of the world craves because of this.
Art in Europe is a dead and lifeless state exercise, as far as I can see.
I've been talking to quite a few German language artists recently about exactly this phenomenon, and they all say the same thing. I'm translating a novel just now for a Swiss author who is desperately keen to produce an English language version of one his books, and we were discussing the nature of German art. I also know a German rap musician who should, if ability is any measure, be extremely successful. But he cannot seem to get decent support from German society. It is only when he goes abroad that people know him and appreciate him.
The verdict seems to be that German language culture is stiff and hostile to art, unless the artist is a dead aristocrat. The author complains that the Swiss sneer and reject living writers, and then celebrate the dead one as genius's who embody all that is fine about Swiss culture. He has a point. Robert Walser died penniless and arguably insane, having been ignored and denigrated his whole life. Now, of course, since Kafka and other world famous writers have pointed out his raw ability, the Swiss nation embraces him.
And the Berlin musician, he gets treated appallingly by the german press. They sneer at his art, and laugh at it because it will never measure up to Beethoven or Mozart, in their ears.
There is something disturbing and inhuman about the way art is nationalized in Europe. Artists, too, once they are dead, are claimed by the advocates of the state to represent the glory of the state.
Well, anyway, congratulations to "Germany", and especially to Mathiesan, for winning the Eurovision song contest.
I'm not sure what it proves, but it must certainly mean something profound. Now where did I put my flag? I feel like giving it a jolly good wave, to cheer myself up.
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CBW:
" No, I certainly won't excuse the 14yr old schoolboy analogy: Frankly, as I read that I just thought what a crock of nonsense from You; it exposed Your lack of reason & Your attempt to demean my view."
Prove it.
I dare you. I double dare you.
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#161 dt:
What is it cbw is supposed to prove? Did I miss something?
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DurstigerM
Re #121
"..unconstitutional..": What are You on about?
There were 14 UNO Security Council Resolutions concerning Iraq post-Kuweit & Saddam's regime was in breech of everyone aided in quite a few by France & Germany illegally trading with it.
You & DemocThreat go on about carnage etc.: UNO Resolutions covered these issues of Saddam's carnage - - how easy it is for EUrope to forget the unaccounted for 'missing' of Kuweit, that it was US-UK Airforces that for 12 years protected Kurdish peoples from Saddam's vengeance; how glibly You passover the destruction of the million Marsh Arabs lifestyle by Saddam - - these were crimes committed despite UNO Resolutions. Several of those Resolutions called for appropriate measures by the international community & 1 possible measure was the use of force to make Saddam comply with UNO Resolutions.
Not finding WMD! Again, what are You on about? How could the Iraq Campaign have been illegal on that basis unless/until 'no WMD' were found?
'Scott Ritter'! Pardon repetition, but what are You saying? That 1 man's word should have been taken as gospel and the Intelligence Agencies had all got it wrong?
Yes, Ritter was proven correct - - all credit to the man for that insight - - No, that does not make the policies of Bush-Blair any less reliable based on the information provided by others in security services. Political judgement calls are made by leaders - - get them right everything is wonderful - - get them wrong and in this case all hell breaks out to the terrible cost of the unfortunate Iraqi people.
Should the US-UK have waited for more from Baraday & his investigating teams? Well, again opinions will vary: Saddam's regime had obstructed (infact thrown out the teams several times) all enquiries and had a history of circumventing UN Security Council requirements post-Kuweit. Bush-Blair took the line Saddam had had enough opportunities to come clean: Incidentally, had Saddam done so, there would have been no invasion - - Saddam & his warm-hearted sons would still be ruling - - You of course would be 1 of those bleating about, 'why hasn't the US done something about Saddam?'
Be in no doubt following a very successful & short military invasion by the 'coalition of the willing' it is also my opinion Bush-Blair got it horrendously wrong. The inadequacy of preparation for the aftermath that directly caused the immense & tragic suffering of the Iraqi people following Saddam's regime is a stain on the US-UK that will never be removed.
It should also be recalled that of the 700,000+ deaths in the last 7 to 8 years some 80% were a result of the internecine civil strife among Sunni & Shia Iraqis.
Nothing excuses the gross dereliction of duty by US-UK Armed Forces as the 'occupying authority' during that period: Nevertheless, that judgement as with much of Your's is made with hindsight - - from my viewpoint that post-invasion catastrophe for the Iraqis does not make the grounds for & original invasion illegal.
As for Your observations on Afghanistan it just reveals Your bias and lack of judgement: Apparently, despite a unanimous UNO Security Council Resolution unequivocal in instructing International Armed Forces to carry out a campaign in Afghanistan that too is 'illegal' according to You!
In other words, if EU armed forces could just duck-out, without being labelled as utter bottlers, they would!
Face it: You don't like the USA, every opinion You hold is affected by that perspective just as mine is by my support of the USA. Contrary to Your claim - - As Your views here and EU actions reveal, You & most certainly France & Germany are not 'friends' of the USA.
Of course all these matters will in the end have to be resolved by men & women of goodwill, without guns - - mind You, from Your attitude I take it You won't mind if in Afghanistan the 'women' are without education, medication, representation etc. as the Taliban are clearly such notable followers of Human Rights - - and the 'soldiers' etc. as is happening in Iraq (2 democratic elections in 8yrs - - that's 2 more than ever before) will in Afghanistan return gradually to barracks as 'political' solutions are negotiated.
I don't know what the end result will be for Iraq or Afghanistan: I suspect and hope that over this decade those 2 nations will find a more peaceful existence that involves international Economic aid more than military intervention. However, I do not believe the former will be possible without the latter establishing conditions for basic democratic systems to take root.
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Re #125
"..stop your stupid comments.."
Ah, there-there, still unable to join the grown-ups conversation.
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#77 John_from_Hendon
Have you missed the point somewhere ?
I appreciate that you live on ( in Spain ? )the European mainland .
Even you must have noticed that Democracy does not Exist in the EU , that the EU is run by the commission , a dictatorship .
With 27 member states , the European general public is going to have NO IDEA who would be a good choice as president .
Generally the choice is the lesser of evils , to avoid an obvious choice of someone the majority don't want . Barosso is an example , pulled from obscurity to avoid choosing someone better known .
Did you ever hear of " The Fall of The Roman Empire " ? Now it is the turn of " The European Empire ".
Arch Eurosceptics , might not have so much to argue about if there were Democracy in Europe . Dream On !!! As things stand there isn't any Democracy in the EU and if Barosso and his commissioners have anything to do with it , there isn't going to be .
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Re #161
"..double dare you.."
You would be funny, if You were not known by Your anti-English/anti-American stance.
I respect Your many contributions enough to know that You are not one to write , "..with all dues respect cbw..", without the deliberate intention of an insult to follow.
Astute You are, humorous, You aint.
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d_m wrote:
#161 dt:
"What is it cbw is supposed to prove? Did I miss something?"
I was making small with him, as they say in the old American dialect. I claimed he sounded like a 14 year old school boy because he was taunting durstiger with childish comments to "prove" things which are self evident to any reasonable person. So when he claimed I was lacking reason for my comments, and that I was trying to insult him, I thought it would be useful to parody his former style of discourse. The idea was that he might understand I was reacting to his words, not seeking to judge his person.
CBW, I am not anti-English or anti-american. I am critical of both cultures because that is my own culture, more or less.
It is a moral principle to choose to criticize your own culture rather than other cultures. We are responsible and can change what we are. Pointing the finger at others is a cowards way of dealing with the world's problems.
This is why so many find Marcus odious, and even if they don't they find him boringly irrelevant and completely hypocritical. Everything he says about Europe that is valid criticism could easily be said of his beloved USA, and so he becomes ridiculous, a parody of reasonable conduct in debate.
Your own emotional attachment to British nationalism and British heros is equally disheartening, to someone with my tastes.
With regard to Iraq war, I find your arguments insincere and self serving. You want to wave your flag and preach the glory of war. OK, ok. Fine. Do it then. Wave away. I'm sick of hearing about Iraq, and about Afghanistan. The way the media present the issues, it is just depressing.
Tell me CBW, how many photographs have you seen published by the "free" western media that show children smashed to pieces by our weapons systems?
I ask, because I haven't seen any. And that strikes me as odd, given the archive footage that came out of vietnam, or world war two. I because I have friends in the US military who have told me first hand accounts of the destruction of Fallujah and elsewhere, and of the brutal civilian casualties, I find that incredibly sad.
Vietnam could not continue because of the public reaction to the horrors being done in the name of military glory. We are all about to set off for the world cup, completely free from any disturbing thoughts about what evil may have been done in our names, with our taxes, with our implicit support.
And that is not just the fault of the media, though I do despise modern journalists for the way they crawl and slither to please the corporate standards of "decency", and for their failure to report the truth of our wars.
It is also the fault of people like you, CBW, and of Marcus. You sit back and talk about the wars as though you are fit to judge who should live and who should die, based upon the entertainment spectacle provided to us all via the private media corporations and the state run institutions like the BBC.
To me, that is morally bankrupt. It is sad, because I feel that as a people we have become carelessly brutal, and tolerant of war for profit.
And that is why I would prefer you not to talk about Iraq. I prefer to see you in a better light, CBW. Like you, I wish to ignore the reality of that which is plainly in front of me.
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#162 cool_brush_work:
"... it is also my opinion Bush-Blair got it horrendously wrong. The inadequacy of preparation for the aftermath that directly caused the immense & tragic suffering of the Iraqi people following Saddam's regime...."
A stain I agree, but really, who could have guessed or even believed the carnage to follow Sadam's demise. How could the US or the UK have prepared for it? That it happened is regrattable. That we, the US and the UK, couldn't stop it is also regrettable. But ultimately, in my opinion, the responsibility for the killings and atrocities rests with the people who committed them. For me, it just doesn't wash to blame the US/UK. The Iraqis always had the choice, and the opportunity, to do things differently. In the end, they did what they wanted to do. And no end of fingerpointing is going to get them off the hook.
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#118 d-m
After WWll, Britain also transported many machines from Germany back to Britain.
They were well used , some for 30 years after the war, others probably until today !
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#118 D_M
I and many other British people share your sentiments . Like you and I many people don't buy French goods ( tasteless golden deliscious apples , French White eggs , milk ,) dumped on the British market .
In Thailand where I now live , we shall soon be seeing apples produce of the EU , I don't buy those either . The French are a completely egocentric people ; as is the EU , probably for the same reason .
I think the EU puts up with the French because they were the chief proponents of the EU and still are .
Mrs merkel should have called their bluff , when that "Jack in the Box" Sarcozy threatened to withdraw from the Euro , if Germany didn't give billions to support it .
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#156. At 06:54am on 30 May 2010, democracythreat
As one of the profiled advocates of populism you have special qualifications to understand what it is. The name is also the content.
By the way, one of its features is to deny itself.
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Now, CBW,
I respect you very much and DO appreciate your liking and very apparant support of the USA,
BUT,...there IS a BUT, yes
I disagree with you on France not being a friend of the USA. They are like the UK and quite longterm close to us culturally and politically and importantly.
They are the kind of friend who says alright enough, "I can't support you in this action"--
I disagree with you on the Iraq war as well, but that is for another day.
The French were friendly to us in a courageous way too..sorry, Marcus and D_M...because they had much to lose in not supporting us in this war....
NATO protection in future, commerce in future-with us perhaps, and possible ostrazation by Europe, though of course, THAT IS farfetched.
For instance, Italy and Spain gave tacit support as did the new NATO members, Poland, the Baltic 3, and others--who supported us out of perhaps gratitude AND fear of retribution.
BUT, France did the brave thing, holding themselves up as the "villain" to the American people ..to me out of ..principle and traditional loyalty to their beliefs.
It must be said SOMEWHERE, by an American, Bravo to France, for this moral stance..sticking to principles.
You know? I was scared by the war and 9-11. I remember when the Pentagon got hit that the USA was AT WAR, I felt. I wanted revenge or justice, therefore, I supported Bush in Afghanistan and I think it was a sound decision, if badly executed...ha another time for that argument.
But, I was there as were the whole world. I remember taping the CNN coverage and being in shock at the carnage and destruction in my very own nation by "outsiders." I remember the Canadian Lady (someone powerful there) laying a wreath with great solemness and I remember the Queen of the UK (calling to my family "watch this") with evry important political figure standing there with America.
I also remember a Frenchman journalist declaring that "We are all Americans, today." And I will never ever forget that day, but...
I saw the lay of the land shortly after the "success" in Afghanistan, and started thinking for myself again and shivering at all the missed opportunities for America to become part of the world...well
Thats my view..and your view is ok, too.
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I didnt get to preview that last post..my pc posted it "automatically, thank you, microsoft.
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#165.Huaimek wrote:
"As things stand there isn't any Democracy in the EU,"
As my suggestion to let the people of Europe vote for their President was shouted down by the usual pathetic suspects of Anti-European Xenophobes and Little Englanders, as I envisaged it would be when I posted it, I tend to think you are right that if we had more democracy in Europe then they would have less grounds to stupidly rant from the sidelines in their destructive and negative manner - but I fear that these same people would always want to destroy all hope for a better and more peaceful future for everyone they see nothing good or hopeful fro themselves and are intent of inflicting their doom-laden and pessimistic outlook on others.
We do have a European Parliament and even it is not allowed to vote on the President so we have a long way to go in the campaign for democracy in Europe. There are many matters that are best decided and, in many cases, can only be decided at a European level so it makes sense to have full democratic accountability.
The petty borough council chairman (i.e. the Prime ministers and Presidents) of the 27 constituent parts of Europe want to retain their personal patronage and deprive the people of Europe of their rightful say - and the inevitable consequences is a growth in Anti-Europeanism this was realised a long time ago in many states and the people were let pick their represents and leaders. The pity is that our present bunch of council chairpersons have such a limited historic understanding that they do not understand the importance of letting the people choose in unifying Europe.
Let all Europeans Vote in person on the basis of one European citizen one vote! (And not like the arcane American system of electoral colleges.)
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#124. At 10:28pm on 29 May 2010, Jan_Keeskop wrote:
"Buzet23: A suppléant is a substitute, or stand-in. Perhaps it works like the “first runner-up”, “second runner-up”, &c. in a beauty contest; if for whatever reason the elected candidate must step aside, then the highest-ranking suppléant would fill the vacancy, rather than needing to hold a by-election to fill it."
Thanks Jan-Keeskop for explaining the function of suppléants as it's long confused me, it sort of begs the question though as to why there so many suppléants, in the case of this 'parti populaire' there are six where I am. I would have thought that in the case of someone stepping aside due to death, realising the mess they're in, corruption etc etc, the next highest unelected candidate from their list would have stepped up. That would seem to be the least complicated method but then PR is designed to be confusing and not to be understood by the masses, and the party list method originally invented in 1878 by Victor D'Hondt of Belgium certainly achieves that confusion with it's open list, multiple votes and suppléant list.
I have to say that despite first past the post being far from perfect it does have many advantages over the PR list system used by most countries as at least those in the UK know their elected MP and can meet them in surgeries etc, rather than the elected candidates of a list simply disappearing into the ether of untouchable government which is what happens for anyone higher than a local councillor. I think this is one reason why the EU is so undemocratic since the EU elite are simply emulating the untouchability they know so well from being high up the food chain in their national parliaments.
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#130 Ashkar
British animosity towards France is not personal ; as in centuries of history it is anti French government .
Parisians are often very rude and arrogant . In rural France British people get on very well with the French people they meet and know .
Perhaps you could name a country that doesn't hate the French ? But it is always at government level .
French people are very warmly recieved in Britain .
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#169 quietoaktree:
Really? After WWII. I didn't know anyone did that after WWII. And if it happens that WWII is a typo, and you meant WWI instead, then I still didn't know Britain did that. So that's very interesting. But, was it a typo? On rereading your post, it seems like you meant WWII.
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DemocThreat
Re #167 & "..I am not anti-English or anti-American.."
This from a contributor who has stated, ".. the English speaking peoples are the most bloodthirsty in history of mankind.." & "..I avoid the English like the plague..".
There are many more such informative comments, but I'll not rehash his tired, dull, unbalanced prejudices - - he does it so much better.
Re "..You (me) want to wave your flag and preach the glory of war.."
Contemptible nonsense from someone who plainly has no idea what injury & death is like!
I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
I have never, ever written in the crude, jingoistic manner You are trying to imply.
For my part, there is no flag-waving on Iraq or Afghanistan: There are arguments to be made for when, why, how those situations occur. I defy You to produce the quotes of my alleged "..self-serving.."? Unlike You I don't hide behind cosy hindsight and Your ridiculous self-esteem with its formulaic prejudices to try and prove a point.
You would "..prefer.." I not talk about Iraq not because of some superior "..reality.." You claim to possess, but because You do not have the grounds to 'prove' anything of Your's/DurstM etc. allegations are anymore informed or accurate than my own.
As for Your Iraq vets: They have my utmost sympathy, it must have been hellish, especially if they were in combat. Personally, I never experienced anything like that sort of war - - mine was the slow trickle of hate, spittle & shite variety that Paddy, his wife & children dished out and we did in turn - - bullets & bombs were there, but few & I thankfully only 'lost' 2 comrades there, though a good few carry the physical & memory scars a lot more harshly than I.
"..civilian casualties.."? For a bloke who claims all sorts of insight Your "..incredibly sad..", doesn't quite cut it, does it!?
Pictures of "..smashed children"? Tell me DemocThreat, was the ten thousandth dead child or elderly granny any worse than the first?
Well, I've seen quite a few of the smashed innocent from all the sides involved: Tell me DemocThreat is the limbless soldier any less deserving of consideration than the limbless, pregnant woman (because I've seen both close-up in the same incident)?
You don't even know what You are talking about, do You? Not really: You play at suffering on behalf of others because the 'reality' really is beyond You. In Your eagerness to make me "..small.." with the clever put-down You brush aside that which makes You uncomfortable. Some People get involved in shooting matches - - some are volunteers like me but the overwhelming majority are innocent, always were, always will be, until Humans learn another way - - it isn't 'incredibly sad', it is an absolute disgrace to Humanity.
When have I ever written anything that in any way implies I make judgements on who lives & dies!? You full of 'pointing the finger' DemocThreat, but You have no substance in this particular topic: What? You think we are not all morally bankrupt?
You and 'decency': What a strange concept! When did it become the prerogative of the Swiss domeciled contributor to make final judgements about how others decide to view war & peace?
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152. At 05:40am on 30 May 2010, Jan_Keeskop wrote:
"Seraphim85: Perhaps MarcusAureliusII had interpreted the proposed harmonisation of EU and US regulatory standards as an offer for the US to join the EU?"
In that case I wonder why Alice hasn't yet given her title "inthewonderland" to Marcus already.
I guess the source for it is as serious and true as the Sun or the Bild newspapers...
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#170 Huaimek:
While there was a certain amount of hyperbole in that post, it is still true that I don't buy French products. I felt their behavior, not their disagreement with US policy (which I occasionally disagree with myself), was motivated for reasons that had less to do with US policy and decisions and a lot more to do with posturing.
I also am sorry Merkel didn't call Sarkozy's bluff. That would have been truly interesting. Perhaps she will yet.
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For the record:
G.B. for compensation laid claim to a portion Germany's coal production post-WW2: Shipments halted within the 15 months.
G.B. also claimed along with USA & France various patents, technical drawings & in G.B. case a very limited quantity of for-those-days Hi-Spec equipment (e.g. Drawing/Draftsman tools plus precision lathes). That too stopped within a 12 month.
As per usual QOT just creates a fictional image of UK entirely outside genuine knowledge and experience.
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Islandhopper1, "do you find the Spanish entry entertaining".
I thought it's very sweet, with all those ? that traditional hand-glove? figurines? what are these characters called, of an old street theatre?
In Russian that'll be Colombina for the girl, Petrushka for the energetic fighty boy, Pierro for the sad chap in long white gown.
And the way they got an intruder, group fan, onto the stage from the audience was absolutely swell - in the Comedia del Arte style it's not security that should have been grabbing him away off, but the band themselves happily beating him! :o))))) to the full satisfaction of the Eurovision audience! then the performance will be complete!
In these PC day times they simply didn't dare to jump at the guy :o)))), but classical approach would be a good fighty swirl with sticks and etc. on stage :o))))) - eh? may be my microphone they could have beaten him? sure winner, then!
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174. At 09:57am on 30 May 2010, John_from_Hendon wrote:
" ...
As my suggestion to let the people of Europe vote for their President was shouted down by the usual pathetic suspects of Anti-European Xenophobes and Little Englanders, ..."
EUpris: Making a legitimate comment is not the same as shouting down. We were promised a referendum which we did not get so the whole thing has no right to exist. There is no point in voting for a president.
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#178 CBW
I see I am not the only contributor who understands your views as ´My Country -- Right or Wrong ´ !
Most citizens would prefer officers who lead their sons, daughters and country into battle to deliver better than government propaganda as a justification --- especially as you have previously mentioned the possible lack of overall citizen support.
The time has passed where wars are never questioned -- Thank the Gods !
The next logical step is to punish those politicians for playing War Games with Honourable Soldiers !
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#169
How about a bit of balance QOT.
Have a look on Google for Major Ivan Hirst.
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@ At 12:01pm on 29 May 2010, threnodio_II
Sorry my friend ;) Still you should take it more lightly, in the end the rest of the World has/had to take people like your Cecil Rhodes lightly or the election of a war criminal as greatest briton, etc. :)
@ 65. At 12:19pm on 29 May 2010, cool_brush_work
If you can react to my presence I wonder why you aren't able to react on the content of my previous posts!
@ 70. At 12:50pm on 29 May 2010, Buzet23
I never said and neither do I believe that politics on the Continent are perfect. But even with the obvious flaws it is much more 'democratic' than the system in the UK. Not that the intrinsical democratic value of a system should be the only yardstick, but it is an argument against a lot of British eurosceptics that implicitly think their national system is more democratic by criticizing the EU system.
@ 81. At 4:31pm on 29 May 2010, MaxSceptic
You are welcome. And try to understand this: you can not vote against Barosso, just as you could not vote against Cameron (except if Whitney is your constituency). You vote for parties. So in which elections did you get the chance to vote or dispose of the national leader of either Tories/Labour/Lib dem which would ultimately be your next PM? You can not.
This is how the democratic legitimacy of the executive power generally functions. (except in France, USA and some other countries): democratic legitimacy has been given through parliamentary support.
Note I don't despise any country. Perhaps it is hard for you to understand, but I can be perfectly opposed to someone (politically) without despising him/her. As easily can I say naughty/jesting things about people or countries without 'despising' them.
I'm from Belgium btw.
@ At 06:59am on 30 May 2010, Huaimek
Totally agree with you. I was playing devil's advocate of course. From an efficiency point of view, nothing beats the UK system. However, a lot of criticism from Eu sceptics here is about the democratic legitimacy of the EU (especially the Commission). In some crazy way, these people (ironically a lot of britons) are 'blind' to the fact that their own national system is (from a strict input democracy point of view) one of the least democratic systems in Western Europe.
They raise these questions time and time again (How can I vote against barosso), without realizing that Barosso has about as much (input)democratic legitimacy as Brown or Cameron now. And when one raises this paradox, they become silent or go on about something else. Time and time again.
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153. At 05:52am on 30 May 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
'36. At 02:36am on 29 May 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:
I have been seeing the word "populism" repeatedly in the German-language press in connection with the "EU" and also on this blog from Herr Mathiasen. It seems to mean democracy.
In case you don’t have a dictionary here is what Oxford’s explains:
Type of politics that claims to represent the opinions and wishes of ordinary people. ...'
EUpris: But we know that those who demand a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty do represent the wishers of 'ordinary' people because there have been numerous opinion polls indicating that 80% or more of the population want or wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
' ...
It follows from this that non-ordinary people are not taken care of. '
EUprisL: A situation in which 'non-ordinary' people get taken care of whilst the vast majority do not is undemocratic and unacceptable to me but apparently acceptable to you and other supporters of the "EU"-Dictatorship.
'We therefore know a populist as a person that confuses decisions including election results with interest clashes between the people and the elite. A bait that often works between people with little education.'
EUpris: Too vague. "people with little education" does not apply to me.
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David
Re #172
Always welcome a comment/contibution that aims at fairness. IMO You do that particularly well a lot of the time.
I'm well aware of the close ties between France and the USA; at times they both claim a 'special relationship' stronger than that with the UK. All perfectly acceptable so long as France's "principles.." involve actually keeping to commitments they expected from the other 2 for all those years.
No surprise to You: I completely disagree on France and its attitude to the USA - - just check-out its machinations over creating a EUropean Defence Force at the expense of NATO - - it was a 'bonne ami', but at best it is now a fair-weather traducer.
As an illustration, I think You will find it was France President Chirac who said, "..today we are all les Americans..": Just 2 years later, 2003, that same Pres Chirac was the leader who "..did the brave thing.." and ran out on the Nation that had done more than any other to bring his France its freedom and had then stood by it for 40+ years in NATO.
Anyway, good to hear from You.
Cheers.
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Now that everybody is boycotting goods from other countries, I feel left out.
Neither in America nor Europe have I found British products to boycott !
Nor have I seen queues waiting to purchase them. Can any contributor assist me ?
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#181 CBW
Don´t count on it !
You are the one who continually sweeps uncomfortable facts under the carpet !
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185. At 10:52am on 30 May 2010, Deadlylampshade wrote:
#169
How about a bit of balance QOT
QOT is balanced. He has a chip on BOTH shoulders.
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Re #65
No reaction: Just amazement that the yawning gap between conceited knowledge and dpeth of understanding is still so incredibly large!
I promise there will be no replies.
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#185 Deadlynightshade
Your comments either expose your age or your intelligence ---or both.
I suspect ´Both ´ is insufficient !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re #184 & "..without Citizen support.."
A fair point in itself, but 500+ MPs voted for the Iraq involvement from across the Political Parties (Lib-Dems honourable exception).
Equally true that many Britons opposed the policy, though most Opinion Polls of the UK Public at the time showed a small % majority in support of PM Blair & NuLab.
Have absolutely no idea what the 'My Country right or wrong..' garbage comes from. Most certainly not from anything that I have written on this mini-Iraq squabble on here, or from content of my previous posts.
An invention of Your's & others at times to cover lack of sound debating points: People who present views in opposition to the EU, the EUro and/or who support a military campaign etc. are no more pigeon-holed by 1 particular trait than are those whose views are in favour of the EU, EUro, anti-war etc.
You may like to try it sometime: Actual factual involvement and not some spurious stereotyping, ill-judged labelling etc.
Unfortunately for You QOT - - there is no substitute for verified substantive fact, and on this as on any other topic You have commented on upto now the space between fact and Your notions of fact are unbridgeable.
So, where You are concerned I'm back at: No further comment.
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#186 Jean Luc
The brits suffer from the same illness as Marcus.
What they don´t know won´t harm them !
Which only results in subservient ignorance of which they appear proud. Much to the satisfaction of the elite from the very top down to HER parliament.
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#190 quietoaktree:
I'm smiling, but you can't see that of course. I'm not really sure what you are asking for. However, there is small shop that sells British products: tea, canned goods of various sorts (meats and vegetables), jams and jellies and candies. They also make traditional foods like steak and kidney pie and pasties (sp), and do some sort of high tea thing. Or used to anyway. I don't get to the to the town it's in very often any more, but I believe it is still there. I'll have to see next time I in the area.
There is an art supply store that sells Windsor Newton paints and brushes and books. Tnen there is the dealer that sells Land Rover, but I guess that is German now.
As for boycotting French wine and cheese, etc., it's the one avenue of portest open to me. So I take it. Besides, The state I live in produces excellent wines and neighboring states produce great cheeses.
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Dear CBW,
I was not aware or did not take into account that you are "UNDER ATTACK."
You are...under attack.
I support, you against these fair weather intellectuals---in fair weather they have intellects:)
Remember laugh and the world laughs with you....esp if your laugh is funny.:)
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Also, did you know?
At the Economist site, there is a story about N Korea (NK) which is stunningly good.
I did not know that China and America and Japan and Russia have a secret plan to intervene together when/not if N Korea falls (happening within next few years lets say)
But, then its true that not everything one reads can be believed. I realize you were hurt by my comments...but they were not personal, just untimely.
:) David
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#186. At 10:53am on 30 May 2010, Jean Luc,
Democracy is not just having a vote , it's primarily about using that vote responsibly and in the full knowledge of who (or what) you are voting for. In the case of the Belgian list system that you seem to know if you are like me, Belgian, there is something inherently undemocratic, both with the decision as to who is on the list, and secondly who they actually are and what they believe. In the UK system local party members effectively choose their candidates and then the candidates are obliged to go out and meet, debate with the voters. Yesterday I actually met two members of the Hainaut Chambre list for the Parti Populaire, which is probably only the third time I've seen wannabe chambre or senate politicians on the street. Local politicians I know by the score but as I said earlier these two wannabe's were a breath of fresh air.
As for first past the post there is one big obvious failing that most who have been involved in UK politics know all to well, the manipulation of parish and constituency boundaries to load opposition strongholds with spare friendly votes. The Labour party have been experts in this for generations which is probably why the current government wants to make all constituencies roughly equal in size, and in this sense regional based elections are not so easily manipulated since the territory is so much larger. But which do I prefer, knowing my local MP or not knowing the various list candidates that I voted for and will never meet, my answer will always be I like to know who I voted for so that I can berate them if they lose direction.
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British Parliamentary ´Allegiance ´
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Even the EU let the Brits down !
No allegiance to Democracy or the British public !
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#186 - Jean Luc
Nothing personal JL. I know what you meant but try to see it is the context of the belligerent comment we have to endure from a whole range of voices targeted against us from both sides of the pond. I was angry and I shouted at the wrong guy. Sorry.
cool_brush_work
I am not sure why some posters have decided to target you of late. Speaking personally, we may not agree on much when it comes to EU matters and we seem a distance apart on Iraq but I have never found your comments anything other than well-informed and honest expressions of views sincerely held.
As for the rest of this thread, it appears to be degenerating into the usual nasty sniping we have come to know and love.
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#183. EUprisoner209456731 wrote:
"#174. John_from_Hendon wrote:
" EUpris: ...the whole thing[EU] has no right to exist. There is no point in voting for a president. "
Your position might have been rational prior to 9 May 1950 it is not rational today. You and people like you who live half a century or more in the past and hark back to a time that never existed will always exist, but the fact that you exist will never make your views rational or accepted by the majority of sane people who live in today's highly interconnected World. Like it or not we are part of Europe and Europe is inextricably part of us. Your irrational backward looking view damages the UK.
Please put your energies into fighting for more democratic accountability and subsidiarity in your Parish, County, Country, Kingdom, Europe and on the Planet and not just being the old curmudgeonly guy in the corner of the pub ranting to nobody in particular! Your opinions have no rational basis.
There is every point in voting for a President. Democracy is the best way we know of running the necessary shared management of society. It is not perfect, buy it is better than other ways. Get with the programme and campaign for voting for the President and Executive of Europe. Otherwise you will forever be bitching on the sidelines and become even more irrelevant as time passes.
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CBW
To make it easier for you to deny reality here are the two links which defend my accusation of ´My country --Right or Wrong´and also support Jean Luc
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/who-owns-britain-biggest-landowners-agree-to-reveal-scale-of-holdings-443956.html
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Sorry for the repeats, but they have a life of their own --- and balanced on both shoulders of the average UK bloke !
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QOT
It would be a lot easier for some of us to take you seriously if you would declare your credentials. Looking at the list of contributors, you are almost unique in that we have no idea where you come from, what your problem is with all things British and why you seize on every available opportunity to steer the debate in that direction however off-topic you may take us.
You may have a perfectly good reason for loathing us but at least have the grace to tell us what it is. Otherwise it is impossible not to share commonsense_expressway's view at 191 about the double shoulder chip.
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178. At 10:13am on 30 May 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
DemocThreat
Re #167 & "..I am not anti-English or anti-American.."
What is wrong with being anti-American?
The majority of the world is anti-American!
Want a vote on it?
How many friends you think the US has out there?
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#200 - Buzet23
My understanding is that the Alternative Vote system is what will be offered in the referendum. In effect, no candidate will win their parliamentary seat unless they secure more than 50% of the constituency vote. If they fail to do so, the second vote comes into play and continues in the equation until candidates are eliminated and the final choice has the required 50%. I understand those who suggest that this, paradoxically, might give third candidates a slight advantage at the redistribution stages but it does mean that you will still have an MP who must secure a win, will represent the constituency and who you can berate all you like for so long as he is the member. This sounds to me like a good compromise.
We have the list system here in Hungary and I share your concern about local accountability as in Belgium.
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House of Commons Library `The parliamentary oath´ Research paper 00/17 , 14 FEB. 2000 pdf
did not appear --- also a must for UK democrats -- or those who think they are !
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To all & sundry:
Corrupted analagous phrase, "To be assailed is the insincerest form of flattery!"
Cheers.
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#200 Threnodio
The comments we are seeing from a couple of Americans from the environemnt of right-wing populism and anti-welfare state are irrelevant, and they do by the way not represent every American, of course, or Barack Obama had not been elected.
The comments on the Euro are reflecting what they would like to happen with the currency, but not what will actually take place.
It is ignorants.
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Austerity is what is applied to a society when its productivity outstripped by it's consumption.
Productivity is increased by improving efficiency, something a rent-seeking society is unable to do as long as the policies that drive efficiency down are maintained. When people are rewarded to do nothing then they tend to do that for which they are being rewarded -- nothing.
Productivity improvements requires incentives, including competition for resources. But we don't hear about this, we hear about austerity, which presumably simply means cutting consumption; becoming poorer and living with less.
Greece, like many of us living in increasingly rent-seeking societies, need much more fundamental changes than simply dividing the pie into smaller pieces and in doing so to hope to use less pie. We became wealthy societies by increasing the size of the pie, not by playing political games to subdivide a diminishing pie into different segments. Face it, when we turn the bulk of our economies over to politicians' control we cement in place the fact that decisions made based on political principles rather than on economic ones.
Change the incentives and free the market, the economy allowing it to expand and we will be wealthier. We need fewer politicians and innovators, people working to improve their own lives.
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CBW
It appears that a pdf from The House of Commons Library breaks the rules ???
I´ll try this one !
http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/swearingin/
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@158 cbw
"
There was/is intense argument over the legaility of the Iraq Campaign; for every legal mind You find suggesting it was illegal I can present an alternative legal opinion.
Nothing that I have read, seen, heard persuades me that the Iraq Campaign from the PM Blair-UK perspective was anything other than the correct strategic & political choice of standing at the side of our best ally. Keeping to a commitment to a longterm partner unlike the poseurs in Paris & Berlin.
Doubtless when the UK Chilcott Enquiry is complete & its findings made known we will all row about this again from positions & seek to justify/support our view - - that's not 'fantasy' by me or You, that's a difference of opinion.
No, I certainly won't excuse the 14yr old schoolboy analogy: Frankly, as I read that I just thought what a crock of nonsense from You; it exposed Your lack of reason & Your attempt to demean my view."
My lack of reason?
Certainly you would present me with actual information on who claims that the war agains Iraq was justified.
Even the UN stated that it violated internatinal law.
My analogy was a little bit silly, I admit. But I intended to point out two things:
1. That two wrongs don`t make a right
2. That someone who doesn`t want to help his friend with an illegal act , and even tries to convince him to stop, is still a friend.
Probably even a better one than a friend who blindly follows.
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Re #204
Erm, this will only shock You, but I am not a correspondent for the UK's Independent newspaper: Therefore, its content is not reprsentative of myself and nor does any such content lend or reduce weight of opinion that You are a fool.
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#204 #208
QoT
Is there any chance you could let someone, anyone, on here know what point you are trying to prove? Posting random links from the internet and then following it with things like "did not appear --- also a must for UK democrats -- or those who think they are !", simply encourages people to question your state of mind. Its probably a simple case of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophobia
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oeichler
Re #206
There is nothing at all 'wrong' per se with being 'anti-British' or 'anti-American': Both are reasonable lines to take if so persuaded, however, it is IMO 'wrong' to pretend that one does not like the UK or USA whilst all the time denigrating everything about those 2 nations.
E.g. it will come as no surprise to those familiar with my contributions that I am anti-France Government: I will not deny the patently obvious within my comments. NB. That is not the French Citizens in general, but elements of France's societal-political make-up.
This is markedly different from the approach of DemocThreat, DurstM & some others who miss no opportunity to slam the USA/UK, and then claim they are doing it as erstwhile 'friends' whilst they criticise MAII for doing no different to them in his total prejudice against EUrope.
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@ 118 d_m
"I don't understand why the EU puts up with the french. It seems like they only want to lead and take and when they can't do that they lose interest it it.
If your view is different, and it probably is, please share it with me. I'm open to changing my opinions."
Sorry, d_m, that I completely overlooked the invitation to express a different view. You were completely right, I do have a different view. Germans are not always happy with what the French government does; as the French are not always happy with what the German government does. However, I am convinced - though I have no numbers ready- that Germans and French respect each other and think of each other as Friends. Whatever happens on a political stage, friendship of the peoples and respect have grown considerably in the past 65 years, and I do think, that is what matters foremost. And I do think, the franco-german co-operation within the EU (which I would have liked to be enriched by a british partner) really did sth good for Europe. It turned out to be more than just a symbol that Nations, and peoples, who have warred each other for so long, can build a common future together. And I'd say, this is the European idea, which is NOT restricted to France and Germany, but shared by many European Nations and peoples, who now co-operate to defend it.
And this respect and friendship that has developed, doesn't only apply to the French and the Germans. This ultimately also holds for the friendship between the US and (as a German I'd like to restrict myself to what I experience everyday) Germany - you could have read that from the vast amount of people listening to President Obama at the Siegessäule in Berlin. At least Germans deeply cherish the transatlantic alliance. That's, btw, why I reacted so allergic to specific posts concerning our transatlantic relationship. And that's exactly why Iraq and well...the estrangement of the transatlantic allies cut so deeply into German minds and hearts. I personally think, that even close friends are allowed to disagree, debate, and even draw different conclusions (and take different actions), however still remain close friends. If that was not the case, we'd probably all be pretty lonely in our personal lives...
Ash
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#205 Threnodio !!
My credentials are that I have lived in UK, North America and Germany for longer periods of time and have visited a few of the ex-British colonies. I have read 1000´s of pages on WW11 and attempt to analyse the societies in which I live or have visited (and that is many ).
Where I presently live or my original nationality I do not divulge for I have no time for Nationalism nor the wish to be pigeon-holed, especially as I owe no country my blind allegiance.
It is impossible for anyone to critcize their own society without knowing others well. This is axiomatic when comparing societies and their Nationalism or mental instability. I too was unwilling to hear critique of my `homeland ´until my experience proved the critics correct.
The role of present and past history (often deformed) is an important point which I attempt never to under estimate (much to the apparent anger of some). If German nationalism can be kept at the level of Soccer and The Eurovision Song Contest since WWll other countries could also follow without disappearing into oblivion.
Or do some find praise for Germany obnoxious ????
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@216 cbw
"This is markedly different from the approach of DemocThreat, DurstM & some others who miss no opportunity to slam the USA/UK, and then claim they are doing it as erstwhile 'friends' whilst they criticise MAII for doing no different to them in his total prejudice against EUrope."
Your comment is so off-base, it`s just silly.
Just because I have problems with the US-foreign policy, I am anti-American?
So that`s why on this blog I previously took the US Senate as an example of how the German Federal Council should work. Because i totally hate the USA and everything about them.
Thanks for the eye-opener.
;)
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#214 CBW and #215 C_E
Excuse me !
I am questioning the basis on which you claim that Britain is a democracy if the dice are and have been loaded against the British public for centuries up to the present day.
I am still waiting for intelligent replies or do you still intend to criticise the democratic mess of others without looking at your own on which you appear to base your ideals ?
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144 Europrisoner says:
"The "EU" is a sick, arrogant, wasteful, arrogant, useless, pain-in-the-wotsit, expensive, dangerous, nauseating, anti-democratic, megalomaniac, pompous, smug, unnecessary, truth-denying monstrosity."
And yet as we already know you applied to work for them. Not very ethical. Unless of course you planned to wreck the system from within?
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Jean Luc@186,
I'll repeat my question in a different way: In this country every four or five years we have a general election in which we have the opportunity to throw out our government and its leader, the Prime Minister.
I what election can I participate that will throw out the unelected EU 'government' and its unelected President?
Answer: there is none.
And, of course, being from Belgium you are a great supporter of the EU because:
1) Belgium is a nett beneficiary of EU funds (which means that British, German, Danish, Swedish and Finish - and even French and Italian - taxpayers subsidise you); and
2) Without the EU your insignificant little artificial construct country would have collapsed by now. As it is, I don't believe that it will survive much beyond 2020 and expect to see Flanders and Wallonia go their separate ways. The Femings will be welcomed by the Netherlands, the Walloons will be not so welcome to the French...
(BTW, I love visiting Belgium and am a great admirer of the art, culture, food and architecture. Naturally almost everybody speaks English so I don't offend Walloons by speaking Dutch, or Flemings by speaking French).
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H #155;
"#40 MAII
Sometimes your comments are way over the top . I wouldn't want to dampen you ardent patriotism ; re an earlier comment , many of the very clever people , doctors , scientists , have come from abroad , even Europe ."
Yes it is amazing that many of the world's smartest people somehow sooner or later migrate to America, sometimes to live and work there for a period, often to stay for the rest of their lives and become Americans themselves. I spoke with a British "chap" at Lockheed when I worked there and asked him about why he came. He said it was for the money. His former employer told him he couldn't possibly match Lockheed's offer but if he came back to England after a time he'd be welcome back with a raise. Why? Because he'd have what he called a BTA degree. BTA= been to America. Somehow this confers special powers and abilities far beyond that of mortal men :-)
It is not a matter of patriotism, it's a matter of recognizing that some ways of looking at yourself, your relationship to society, to government, government's role, how the rules are changed and carried out, and the view of life in general are more successful for most people than other ways of looking at it. The founders of America's Republic were individually among the cleverest people to consider this problem and collectively by far the greatest of all such groups to create and impliment such a system. Compare their achievement which has lasted with a few minor basic changes for over two centuries and the distance it came in what by world standards is a relatively very brief time and the failure of the European project almost instantly.
One of the ingenius aspects of American government is that it expects and anticipates the worst in people, not the best and has successfully devised a scheme to deal with that reality...by breaking up power and pitting their interests against each other. This is the best assurance that no one group can overwhelm the others and seize all power for itself. In Europe by contrast, the concentration of power in a few unaccountable hands inevitably results in despotism in one form or another and when it fails, the accusatory fingers are used in lieu of voting the bums out and replacing them the way we do it here. This is one regard in which America is created as an anti-Europe. It fractures and decentralizes power to the greatest degree possible and is inherently suspicious of any individuals or group acquiring too much of it. In fact America's first government under the Articles of Confederation failed because the central government was too weak and the Constitution would not have been adopted except for the Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments which limited what government could do beyond what the body of the Constitution allowed.
It is also typical that Europeans did not bother to study the American constitution, learn from it, and adapt it where they could. Instead they felt they were much smarter and so invented the absurd monstrosity that they call a constitution which was an instant train wreck on the way to happening. Well now that wreck has happened, the train having come off the tracks at the first sharp bend and the carnage will be felt all over Europe.
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oeichler@206 wrote:
"What is wrong with being anti-American?
The majority of the world is anti-American!"
You may well be right. (But then envy is such a common little vice),
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DurstigerMann
re #213
Firstly, I think You are under the mistaken impression the 'lack of reason' comment by me was aimed at You: It was not - - it was for DemocThreat whose comment #114 using the 14yr old child analogy had provoked my response #158, that You quote at length.
That said, I do take issue with You for much of Your #213.
Quote, ".. even the UN stated that it (US-UK Iraq invasion) violated international law..": I'm sorry, did I miss that UNO Assembly or Security Council Vote?
Quote, "..you will present me with factual information of who claims the war was legal..": The USA Attorney General John Ashcroft, the UK Attorney General Lord Goldsmith, and of course the various UNO Security Council Resolutions that have legal basis with Res 678 & 1441 being most apposite on which the USA-UK chose to act. Both US & UK elected Governments (Senate-Congress-Parliament) voted overwhelmingly in support of the action.
I know! Those in support of invasion would say that, wouldn't they? Yes, indeed they do: And that is of course simply the reverse of those who opposed the invasion. They claim it is illegal: Well, they would say that, wouldn't they!?
All those Legal Documents are all open to interpretation: You may feel and justifiably argue they do not give legality, however I and others take a different view.
It is my understanding that various bodies inc. the Dutch Independent Tribunal found against Res 1441 explicitly giving legality to the Iraq invasion; but then, there's a Legal opinion no more or less valid than that of the 2 highest Law Officers of the USA & UK in 2003.
Certainly it is the US & UK view that Resolution 678 gave the authority to act under 'international law': That legal opinion is challenged by many, but though You dislike it intensely, there is no definitive judgement one way or the other.
Thus we have UNO Secretary General Kofi Annan stating the invasion was "..not in conformity with the UN Charter..", however, that is his opinion and not a legal judgement. In contrast the US Court of Appeals in 2003 (a body hardly favourable to the Bush Administration) found there was 'no case to answer'.
UN Charter Articles 39 to 42 do provide grounds for considering whether any 'aggression' is legal or not: Its full implications are very largely untested. Ironically, the best examples of such illegal 'aggression' were Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iran and subsequent invasion of Kuweit: Both clearly breeched every part of the applicable Articles. Nothing so clear-cut can be said about the Iraq invasion by the US-UK (backed by 47 other Nations) because of the numerous post-1990/Kuweit UNO Security Council Resolutions concerning Iraq which leave open to legal interpretation what exactly are the requirements for an act of war.
Anyway, I've covered about as much ground on this topic as can be reasonably expected: Doubtless, we will continue to disagree.
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#218 - quietoaktree
I have never been unable to stomach criticism of my own country and have, from time to time, been strident in my own criticism. What I have tried to do, however, is keep my observations within the bounds of credibility and supported by evidence. In the past few threads, however, we have been invited to take seriously amongst other things issues relating to a talent contest, 22 grown men running after an inflatable ball and several hours of song contest (the result of which must have delighted anglophobes the world over) as serious examples of national cultures and identities.
I certainly find nothing obnoxious in praising Germany. In rebuilding herself in a modern democratic model and coming to terms with her past in a courageous way, she has earned my unqualified admiration.
Where I fall out with people is when they resort to misrepresenting quaint traditions as symptoms of some kind of feudal anachronistic counter-democratic society that belongs somewhere in the dark ages. It simply is not true. It is prejudice born out of ignorance and, while it is doubtless useful to propagandists with an axe to grind, it has no place in a grown up forum.
Actually, my attitudes to my erstwhile homeland and the EU are surprisingly similar. I have benefited substantially from what they were, regretted what they have not become, am fearful of the direction in which they might be moving and hopeful that they might rediscover their original ambitions. Both require constructive engagement with the issues. Neither benefits from trading insults.
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As much as I disagree with QOT, I do not think credentials matter one hoot. That is an entirely European concept. To them somehow a piece of paper conferred by a university demonstrates knowledge and wisdom. Where I come from ideas stand or fall on their own merit alone and what the credentials of the people who espouse them are couldn't matter less. Many of the greatest contributions to human progress came from people with few or no credentials at all while many othes with the most impressive credentials contributed little or nothing that proved to be of value during the entirety of their lives.
The lack of importance of credentials is a basic part of America's heritage. When the settlers and captain walked off the boat into the endless unknown wilderness, everyone became equal and the one who was cleverest at survival was the leader, not the one with a piece of paper given to him that said he was smart. When such people who use their credentials as a substitute for real knowledge and skill, we in America generally have an instinct to brush them aside. It seems to me that in Europe they are revered. That may be why many of Europe's best people who don't have credentials to give them status there come here to fulfill their life's dreams and do their best work.
When Albert Einstein came to the United States, he initially went to Harvard University. That esteemed citidel of WASPism rejected him because he could not produce his "credentials" the Nazis in Germany unwilling to send them copies. And so he went to Princeton University instead where he was warmly accepted and welcomed. As a result, Princeton became one of the most important spots in the world of physics while Harvard by comparison it hardly a pimple on the world's backside. Has Harvard learned its lesson? I don't know but I doubt it.
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206. At 1:11pm on 30 May 2010, oeichler wrote:
" ...
What is wrong with being anti-American?
The majority of the world is anti-American! ..."
EUpris: Prove it!
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221. At 3:24pm on 30 May 2010, margaret howard wrote:
'144 Europrisoner says:
"The "EU" is a sick, arrogant, wasteful, arrogant, useless, pain-in-the-wotsit, expensive, dangerous, nauseating, anti-democratic, megalomaniac, pompous, smug, unnecessary, truth-denying monstrosity."
And yet as we already know you applied to work for them. Not very ethical. Unless of course you planned to wreck the system from within?'
EUpris: The "EU" has no right to exist but it does exist. I am forced to pay for this rubbish. I have no problem with teaching in an "EU" school as long as I don't pretend to believe in it. I reckon that pupils in an "EU" school need to hear from somebody who doesn't agree with it. I didn't really expect to get the job.
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#223 - MarcusAureliusII
It isn't that Europeans have failed to study and learn from the US Constitution. The problem with the EU is that there is one particular school of thought (if you read the full text of Barroso's speech, you will see what I mean) who believe that the European project has become an unstoppable juggernaut and that a federal supranational entity is inevitable. They want to win 'the battle of ideas' but are fearful to put it to any kind of meaningful democratic test. In the face of this, you have a reactionary school which wants the whole thing rolled back to a free trade zone.
Neither of these objectives is realistic in the present political climate. What you have in the USA is a considerable advantage in three respects:
1. The allegiance to the flag. Whatever differences may exist in state traditions, nobody seriously questions their loyalty to the US. This is healthy and I do not criticise it but the vast majority of Europeans are a long way from feeling that way.
2. Your constitution, which has been amended as necessary on a number of occasions, has had nearly 2.5 centuries to bed itself in and mature. What is being attempted in Europe - at least by the federalists - is to write something more or less from scratch which will gradually replace or change beyond recognition systems sometimes several centuries old. This is a very hard sell indeed.
3. You were able to make allowances for regional differences (for example the legal system of Louisianna, the right of individual states to decide matters such as capital punishment, etc.) In no small measure, this was due to the fact that at almost every stage, democratic consent was required whereas in Europe, democratic consent seems to be little more than inconvenient irritant to be circumvented whenever possible.
This is why I believe that, if the project is ever to progress, it has to do so in a different and more inclusive way. It is why I consider the Barroso approach to be dangerous and high-handed. But it does not necessarily make the project itself undesirable or unachievable. There is much which can be learned from the American experience but we begin from a different position and the objectives are somewhat different. It is not that the American model is bad but it may not be appropriate to European circumstances and ambitions.
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#227 - MarcusAureliusII
I did not mean academic credentials Marcus but, of course, you already knew that. You are just being obtuse.
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Anybody who wants to know how parliaments in authoritarian, officially democratic superstates work should watch this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8709517.stm
No, it's not from EUSSR Parliament. Yet.
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Re #109 "The collapse of the Soviet Union began with Truman Doctrine."
Nope. The collapse of the USSR began with its creation.
And I have not said that Ronald Reagan defeated Soviet Union.
I've merely said, that he greately accelerated its demise.
Yes: we, U.S. taxpayers paid the price.
But as an old saying goes:
By the time the fat dog gets skinny, the skinny dog will have died.
Something enemies of the U$A should always remember.
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oi oi oi;
"What is wrong with being anti-American?
The majority of the world is anti-American!"
First of all, I'm not sure you are right about most of the world being anti-American. Are China, India, Japan? I don't think so. Quite the opposite I think. When a million Chinese protestors needed a symbol to tell their government what they wanted at Tiananmen Square, they didn't choose the Eiffel Tower, Big Ben or any other than the Statue of Liberty, iconic symbol of America. China also doesn't feel towards America the way it does towards Europe which not only exploited it but humiliated it during the 19th century. I don't think most of Africa hates America either and especially now that we have an African American President. Europe have any heads of state of African descent now...or ever? Perhaps many Arabs do not like America because of its support for Israel and the hatred for Israeli Jews their governments and Europeans have instilled through unjustified villification. And some of South America but not all of it may hate America. But much of Europe does, especially Western Europe. Probably because of pure jealousy. America has come from nowhere in almost no time to eclipse Europe in every meaningful way and not by copying it but by rejecting it. It has put the lie to Europe's assertion that it is somehow superior to the rest of the world as it is clearly vastly inferior to America and the gap is widening in many important ways that don't show up on graphs or charts with numbers. Eastern Europeans may not feel the same. They still remember that it was America that stood up to the USSR and ultimately won the cold war and their freedom while much of Western Europe wanted to capitulate.
Why does it matter? Because when people get into real trouble they sooner or later come to America for help. And almost invariably that help is given even for free when it is necessary. But don't count on America's generosity or charity forever. I'm a strong proponent of America saying no to those who have demonstrated their contempt for us, Europe for example. I think most Americans are about fed up with Europe. I don't see that most of my countrymen even care what is going on there right now and would not want to offer much in the way of assistance even if they could. Europe can scream that if it goes down America will go down with it but I don't think most Americans believe that or are worried. I certainly don't.
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# 193
QOT
Would you care to elaborate-I'd be fascinated to hear your assumptions about my intelligence and my age.
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@227 MAII
"The lack of importance of credentials is a basic part of America's heritage. When the settlers and captain walked off the boat into the endless unknown wilderness, everyone became equal and the one who was cleverest at survival was the leader, not the one with a piece of paper given to him that said he was smart. When such people who use their credentials as a substitute for real knowledge and skill, we in America generally have an instinct to brush them aside. It seems to me that in Europe they are revered. That may be why many of Europe's best people who don't have credentials to give them status there come here to fulfill their life's dreams and do their best work. "
I don`t know whether it was about survival or whatever that made the anglo-saxian area much more liberal in this issue . But I absolutely agree with you that the way credentials are handled within Europe is bad and even though you could see some changes to this in the last decade, it needs to change a lot more.
I know a few academics who made a few mistakes such as getting their degrees too late in life, not having top grades or - a rather recent problem in the German speaking area, especially Austria - had no desire to get a MA degree.
And those are the people who left and will continue leave Europe for Asia, America or Australia, where they have a chance to show what they can do.
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163. cool_brush_work wrote:
"... how glibly You passover the destruction of the million Marsh Arabs lifestyle by Saddam"
The Marsh Arabs from the delta were rebelling against Saddam Hussein and probably would have won, but the US allowed him to quell the rebellions in 1991 and 1993 by allowing the Iraqi air force to bomb the delta instead of enforcing the No Fly zones.
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#234 - MarcusAureliusII
"Eastern Europeans may not feel the same. They still remember that it was America that stood up to the USSR and ultimately won the cold war and their freedom while much of Western Europe wanted to capitulate"
Actually, no. The Hungarians and Poles in 1956 and the Czechs in 1968 learned the hard way that nobody was going to come to their rescue. They simply waited until the tide of history turned in their favour then did it for themselves. The allies did not cut down the barbed wire in central Europe, the Hungarians did. The allies did not tear down the Berlin Wall, the Germans did. The Velvet Revolution was home grown in Czechoslovakia, Solidarity was home grown in Poland. It is true that, once they had freed themselves, they ran headlong into the embrace of NATO but they also embraced the EU. If anything, it was the Soviets by deciding not to interfere in central Europe who ended the Cold War by default.
I take nothing away from NATO in maintaining pressure on the USSR up to the end but you do an injustice to Eastern Europeans by saying that you "won the Cold War". In the end, the little guys won with nothing more than faith, persistence and good timing. Credit where it is due.
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By the time the fat dog gets skinny, the skinny dog will have died.
Absolutely. Or, as said in 1242 Alex Nevsky -
"Who will come to us with the stock market - from the stock market will perish".
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And for someone who is so proud of your role in rescuing Eastern Europe a short while back, you seem very keen to see the whole European project fail barely 2 decades later.
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"Incidentally, am I the only one who thinks there is something chilling about song contests between "nations"?
democracythreat, there is a good side to it as well :o)
as I recently learned in conversations with Poles (we are still investigating the crash; everyone else but Russians and Polish have long forgotten ab it :o))))
- a flaming fighty nationalist will always understand another flaming fighty nationalist. And become friends with. :o)))))
the rest Poles simply don't trust, honest. They compare with themselves (well, as min the ones in that Smolensk blog) - and find the general contributors "for peace in the whole world" highly suspicious. Phony.
Their fav. contributor was I think one Russian who grumbled "stop this saucy crap kiss kiss kiss. we have never been friends with Poland and better not to start " :o))))))))))
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#226 Threnodio
What credentials did you mean ????
My contribution #218 was not specifically directed at you.
However your attempt at demeaning the UK parliamentary laws and facts concerning the UK traditions as ´QUAINT´ -- is exactly what I meant !
My evidence has been presented and you (and other Brits) have dismissed them ´Out of a misplaced Nationalism ´ with the defense of ´ aren´t they quaint´ even though the information comes from YOUR House of Commons Library and a British newspaper.
What are YOUR credentials ?
In #230 now you are praising flag- waving as an ideal, no wonder wars are over represented whenever Brits discuss!
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I even got a prize there, from moderators, for participating in the page 1,000. Which I can't claim because I can't. They allowed a pictuure of your choice and a self-description under it, for most annoying to the moderators bloggers :o))))) who survived to the page one thousand. Some who got awarded described themselves as Don Quixote others as , etc. placed funny animated pictures (which I am technically unable to :o)
and I can't sum up myself better than Alice :o))))) anyway :o)))) after long thinking
(there is also an album coming by post, of Smolensk views)
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@234 MAII
"Neither of these objectives is realistic in the present political climate. What you have in the USA is a considerable advantage in three respects:
1. The allegiance to the flag. Whatever differences may exist in state traditions, nobody seriously questions their loyalty to the US. This is healthy and I do not criticise it but the vast majority of Europeans are a long way from feeling that way.
2. Your constitution, which has been amended as necessary on a number of occasions, has had nearly 2.5 centuries to bed itself in and mature. What is being attempted in Europe - at least by the federalists - is to write something more or less from scratch which will gradually replace or change beyond recognition systems sometimes several centuries old. This is a very hard sell indeed.
3. You were able to make allowances for regional differences (for example the legal system of Louisianna, the right of individual states to decide matters such as capital punishment, etc.) In no small measure, this was due to the fact that at almost every stage, democratic consent was required whereas in Europe, democratic consent seems to be little more than inconvenient irritant to be circumvented whenever possible.
This is why I believe that, if the project is ever to progress, it has to do so in a different and more inclusive way. It is why I consider the Barroso approach to be dangerous and high-handed. But it does not necessarily make the project itself undesirable or unachievable. There is much which can be learned from the American experience but we begin from a different position and the objectives are somewhat different. It is not that the American model is bad but it may not be appropriate to European circumstances and ambitions. "
I agree that the "Barroso approach" is high-handed.
And of course there is something to learn from the US, both good and bad.
But it`s like you said, there are quite profound differences.
The main problems I see unregarded in the EU are:
1) Europe does not share a common native language.
At the same time, European politicians are trying to force a Federal Union upon this area.
What I learned from federalism in both Germany and Austria is, that even one single nation is not a homogenous mass, but has areas with a strong economy and high employment and some poorer areas.
Within such a nation, however, people are free to move and can settle wherever they find a job and a promising future. They will understand the other people without a problem.
The Eu is trying to build one huge federal state which will have economically strong areas as well as poorer areas, this is an inevitable reality. But those people from poorer areas will not be able to move as freely as within a single nation/language area.
Not everybody speaks English fluently, neither potential working migrants, nor their new neighbours.
But the politicians don`t seem to care and continue to push supranational law, which effectively aims at ransforming nation states into federal states with negligible abilities to influence their own economic situation.
2) The European people are left out, because politicians mistrust them and think that they know batter than their people.
This leads to an absurd situation, where politicians on a European level argue that they possess indirect democratic legitimation, because the governments are represented within the European Council.
Because they were voted to govern their respective nations, they think that it`s ok to build a state on top of that nation, because they "know" "that this is in the best interest of the citizens.
But without really asking the citizens of every single nation, you are building a house on mud and with no foundation.
3) The two factors above create a situation, where people who were not asked whether they want a common currency or supranational laws and institutions, are indirectly asked to pay for others who they share no national or philologic connection with.
And others might find themselves treated unfairly, because their lives were better without that currency and supranational law.
They feel like it was forced upon them, because they had no say in it.
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threnodio is right; there hasn't been 1 Soviet rocket and 1 bullet less in Eastern Europe when it decided enough is enough. One phone call command and the blood-bath guaranteed. Or do you think the Soviet soldiers got "reformed" LOL there in any way or were under-fed :o)))) in those garrisons so that they were unable to hold a gun?
One thing Perestroyka hasn't seen is Russian army in any kind of dis-obedience or lack of ? loyalty. No army coup, in short. Neither - army willingness to embrace LOL "democracy" :o)))))
We were taking troops out of Eastern Europe the next 2 years, and to drag out all metal of Germany "the front line barricades" with the West - it took whole 4 years I think.
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DurstTigerMann
Re #219
No, not "silly" at all. Though You are moving that way with that comment.
I didn't know that 'anti-American' meant "hatred" in Your version of English.
Now, please, I urge You, try to read my comments relating to You & others again: It is quite clear to me that most of my direct crtiticism is aimed at DemocThreat & how You can see it any other way just baffles me!?
If You look carefully, You will see that I have specifically addressed several of the points made by You in Comments directed at You.
Your views like most of us are a mixture: I can say no more, no less.
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I have now read Mr. Hewitt’s article. I understand that he does not read German.
Therefore he has not read the interview with president Barrosso in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung from 25th May, where Barrosso explained his criticism of Germany, and what he thinks Germany has done wrong in the case of the Greek bail out.
In this matter, Barrosso is closer to France and the opposition in the Bundestag. He has stated what can also be read in Der Spiegel and other German media about Merkel’s approach to the crisis: It has been reeling. Nothing veiled here, but the man is a diplomat, of course.
The aspect of linguistics is one of the reasons why Europe cannot copy USA, but to avoid any misunderstanding: There is a list of other reasons, and I never hear even supporters of that idea articulate it in the public.
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threnodious;
"They want to win 'the battle of ideas' but are fearful to put it to any kind of meaningful democratic test."
That's the whole point. They do not believe in the sovereignty of the people, they will not allow it. Nor do the people have the gumption to stand up for themselves and tell the EU and their own government to go to hell, abolish it, and form a new one which we assert is their inalienable right. There would be nothing either of them could do if they did but there is no culture of democracy, no understanding that if they take matters into their own hands and are willing to die for their freedom, nobody can stop them. Their culture starts at the earliest age to condition them to accept a life of subservience. That is why Europe is the way it is and resents America which isn't.
"In the face of this, you have a reactionary school which wants the whole thing rolled back to a free trade zone."
Here you reveal that your mentality is Entirely European. I remind you that a free trade zone is all they ever agreed to. You don't believe in the sovereignty of the people over the government either.
"Actually, no. The Hungarians and Poles in 1956 and the Czechs..."
Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, East Germans etc. could not liberate themselves until the USSR which propped up its puppet governments and backed them with military force was bankrupt. That wasn't done by the Pope or Gorbachev, it was done with twenty thousand American hydrogen bombs aimed at the USSR some just minutes away from Soviet Targets on Pershing II missiles stationed in Germany much to the howling protests of much of Western Europe. It was only when the USSR was a broken society because it insanely wasted its meager miserable resources its ineffficient system produced on weapons it didn't need and couldn't use that it was possible and safe for Eastern Europeans to revolt. As late as 1982 Jaruselski imposed Marshal Law in Poland the result of the Gdansk strikes led by Lech Walessa. At that time he feared Soviet tanks would roll into Poland just as they had rolled into Hungary in 1956 and into Czechoslovakia in 1968.
"I take nothing away from NATO in maintaining pressure on the USSR up to the end"
NATO is merely a political tool to allow the US to pay for the defense of Europe and to supply almost all of the troops and equipment as well as the leadership. On its own, the European component of NATO couldn't even handle Serbia. Who are you kidding?
"And for someone who is so proud of your role in rescuing Eastern Europe a short while back, you seem very keen to see the whole European project fail barely 2 decades later."
I am merely an observer watching a rediculously top heavy clumsily conceived absurd ediface topple over. It's quite spectacle. Who wouldn't be amused...other than someone inside or someone who paid for it?
"What is being attempted in Europe - at least by the federalists - is to write something more or less from scratch which will gradually replace or change beyond recognition systems sometimes several centuries old. This is a very hard sell indeed."
What is being attempted is to create a dictatorship which will control every aspect of every one of 500 million lives right down to the curvature of the bananas they are allowed to buy.
"There is much which can be learned from the American experience but we begin from a different position and the objectives are somewhat different."
You can't learn anything from anyone when you believe that you are the smartest people in the world and know more than anyone else...even when the facts argue exactly the opposite. Small wonder Europe is so angry at America. Its Constitution is the antithesis of America's.
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St-John
Re #237
I'm sorry! What was that?
You are suggesting the USA might have considered breeching international law and attacked a sovereign nation (Iraq) for quelling a civilian uprising (Marsh Arabs) within its borders?
Surely, not another who has forgotten it was as a result of the UNO decision to halt the Coalition of Allied Armed Forces led by the USA at the Kuweit - Iraq border that resulted in Saddam Hussein still being in power 10 years later?
I'm afraid You will have to actually face the reality: It was the UNO and in particular the likes of China, France & Germany who refused to let the UN Security Council sanction Allied Forces entering Iraq to assist uprisings: that failure to act thereby hamstrung the Bush Snr administration who wanted to actively support the Marsh Arabs.
Clinton was similarly tied down by the weight of international opinion by 1993 at which point the UNO had already passed 7 Resolutions admonishing Saddam for his breeches of the Kuweit accords - - Saddam was so concerned in 1994 his defence systems fired Missiles at US & UK Aircraft protecting the Kurds!
You cannot have it both ways: Either You want that 'police' Nation out there doing its stuff or You don't! Which is it?
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Deadly, Threnodio, Common etc.
Don't, don't get dragged into it.
There's not a jot of rhyme nor reason to anything he writes.
MAII has it about right: 'Acorn for a brain'.
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Seraphim, @140.
Thank you, google didn't work but youtube has heaps of the new rising star :o))), yes, Neopolitan dreams was very pleasant.
Lena Meyer is so very German.
And I think BBC was right in the article ab Eurovision it's good it's coming back to basics, a good song sang by a good singer that's it.
Lately it was so much ? like a cake. pop and glitz and all decorations swirled up. folks trying to out-shine and out-gloss one another.
Russian Peter Nalich said in the interview he is very glad Lena Meyer won, because I think he was also of the BBC opinion :o) - too much glitz lately, back to basics ASAP required. He said "a very light ? lightly done, with ease, song, and her youth appealing, and a girly (a little bit of) dance." How to say, nothing extra-s , that could have spoiled it.
But then of course Eurovision has deeply rooted in this glitz rut, in the past decade. We will see if it will be able to ride out of it, next year. in Berlin? I suppose? Or another city?
PS Just to remember ourselves, oj. We have won once :o))))) by means of tossing in everything :o)))) as far as I remember - there was a ballerina crawling out of a grand piano :o)))), a Pluschenko ice-skating near by :o))))), and , how to say, only heavy artillery was missing in the stage up and background support of the song :o))))
Absolutely abhoring. I was glad of course we won back then - but with what!!! a total disaster.
This year I am happy even that we haven't won. Our Peter was genuine, no pop star, no profi, good in the best ancient Olympic games spirit :o)))) As an amateur.
Nothing to look at, of course :o))))) or listen to :o)))), much :o)))))
But he is a self-made man, I mean, posted a song on internet 3 years ago and made up a total 100% youtube career - never in TV or records or anything. In fact, he is for free rights, what he composes and sings - puts on his site for all to copy. He makes money though heaps, wanted at live concerts, at corporate parties. He said will be making money from live concerts, and records - for free for all who want to. His principle.
And he makes quite a living, Russians can't have a party without a gypsy band (before) and now - without Nalitch :o)))) though in fact he was an architecture student and I thinbk has graduated by now just in case as well. For who knows how long he will be wanted to sing at parties and private parties and corporate events.
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As a second thought, we can always let Peter out with a hat to the street of any European town to sing and collect money :o))))
La Boheme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQGyZtOnaQU&feature=related
Tourna a Sorriente
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGjJj4OThw&feature=related
And with the hat I guess he'll collect some coins in ? I think in Scotland will be right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59po-Vh8GdA&feature=related
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CBW:
You make a strong case that I am, in fact, anti-British. Upon reflection I suppose that I am. Although I criticize US foreign policy and it's military industrial complex, I nevertheless admire the USA and hold out some hope that it will lead itself into a real democratic future. Less and less as time goes on, but I still hope for the USA.
I have looked within myself and I do not find that same hope for the UK or its people. I suppose that does make me anti-british. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced the best british were killed in the first and second world wars, or left soon afterwards to move to America or the colonies. The UK has become like Israel, in that respect. It contains the dregs of its former society, because anyone with any brains and a desire for a decent life for their children got out long ago.
And I concede, that position is unreasonable. I understand that it isn't possible that everyone in the UK is a degenerate human being. That's crazy talk, I know. And yet I confess, if I were pressed on the matter that would be my view. Indeed, I might not even have to pressed. I might offer the view anyway. So you are right about that. I am anti-british. I don't trust the Irish, the Scots are grumpy, and the very thought of the english makes my stomach hurt.
But just because I'm prejudiced, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Leaving my failings of character to one side, and turning to the point of interest regarding the war and law debate, you wrote:
"Doubtless when the UK Chilcott Enquiry is complete & its findings made known we will all row about this again from positions & seek to justify/support our view - - that's not 'fantasy' by me or You, that's a difference of opinion."
Now this is true. But it is also true that the difference of opinion is meaningless. The Chilcott enquiry is meaningless. We all know that. It is a whitewash, it does not have the power to enquire, let alone hold the parties accountable. It is a show, designed to whitewash a disgrace and a possible war crime.
And this total lack of accountability is what I find most disheartening about the whole debate, and I suppose this is why I tend to ignore what you say about the technicalities and the details of the argument. Because there is no argument. There is only chatter.
It is like this supposed "battle of ideas" that is going on in Europe. There isn't one. The public's ideas are not involved in the decision making. It is insulting and downright false to imply that they are. Elites make the decisions, and elites do extremely well from the taxpayer. Common people have no say, either in Europe or in UK political decisions. Both systems are run for and by an elite class in society, through the mechanism of theoretical representation.
This is why I react strongly when you say "prove it". I mean, why bother? In a court, a thing is proved to the balance of probabilities or beyond a reasonable doubt, depending on whether the liability is civil or criminal. Only in science must a proof be able to withstand future tests.
But the Iraq war is not in court, not as a civil issue and never as a criminal issue. It is not even in the media, to any serious extent. You claim to have seen the brutality from our recent wars, so good for you. You completely sidestepped the question of whether the media has informed the general public of the same.
The only thing that I think it is possible to agree upon is that nobody will ever be held accountable for the war crime IF IT WAS A WAR CRIME. Now maybe you believe people could and would be held accountable.
I don't. The one thing I take away from these wars is that the west is truly run by an elite who have impunity from prosecution for war crimes. There has been and will be no trial. Bush will never be charged. Cheney will never be charged. Blair will never be charged. It will never happen.
Nor will the owners of the corporations who have made billions from these wars be charged, nor will they ever have to repay the money they and their pet politicians have made for themselves.
That, for me, is more important than the question of whether they are guilty of not. After all, why are we having this debate about guilt? Shouldn't that be happening in a court?
Why are we debating guilt when the courts are not?
Blair should have been charged with war crimes. Whether he ought to have been hung is an open question, but he should have been tried, at least. The consequence of it not happening is that future leaders will know,
just as he did, that they are not responsible for the deaths they cause by cranking the war machine into action.
And that is a facet of our political system which I find distressing, and which I am determined to criticize as long as I have breath in me to do it. The english speaking people live under a system where the super rich make war for personal profit. That has been true for as long as there have been english speaking people.
Most of the world understands that fact, and it would be helpful if we were also able to do so.
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168. d_m wrote:
"#162 cool_brush_work: ...
... it is also my opinion Bush-Blair got it horrendously wrong. The inadequacy of preparation for the aftermath that directly caused the immense & tragic suffering of the Iraqi people following Saddam's regime...."
A stain I agree, but really, who could have guessed or even believed the carnage to follow Sadam's demise. How could the US or the UK have prepared for it? That it happened is regrattable."
Anyone with good knowledge of the Middle East could see what might happen.
Kanan Makiya (adviser to Iraq's major opposition group, Iraqi National Congress) said (February 2003): "The Iraqi opposition is going to become anti-American the day after liberation. ... The plan is bizarre. The American plans to install a US military governor in Baghdad to rule post-war Iraq, is an unmitigated disaster, deeply stupid and a mess. ... If not dumb, what are their goals?"
I could quote my own analysis (February 16, 2003): "... the proposition of installing an American military governor in Iraq? Suicide bombings may well become very fashionable that year.".
If no viable plan for what is to happen after the conquest, don't start a war.
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oj, referred. Peter is for free rights but i forgot BBC isn't!
MA, you may google Nalitch Whooly
2 min 13 sec. with US Congress photos
though I don't know - is it an American song?
if there is someone from Scotland, I think will fit google
Nalitch Overburdened
(in the hat)
I personally like best if to google
Nalitch La Boheme
1 min 32 sec, blusih picture, on the left. Not Charles Aznavour of course but still.
For Italians will fit to google
Nalitch Torna a Surriento
1 min 17 bluish picture as well
In other words he can credibly let out with a hat :o)))) to any European town main street
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#250 CBW
The inadequacy was not only the aftermath, I am sure the Foreign Office had enough experts who warned about going in BEFORE the folly !
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#253
democracythreat;
I would love to see that post consigned to the mod bin on the grounds of racist bigotry, but on reflection i think its better that it stays up for all to see just what sort of a human being you are.
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I think whether in waging a war or drilling for oil in deep water. The first premise should be "what ever can go wrong, will go wrong". Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
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#254 St_John:
Judging by the differing opinions concerning the same topic on this thread, I would have to say that even hindsight fails to provide its vaunted 20/20 vision.
Your comment: "Anyone with good knowledge of the Middle East could see what might happen."
Even in your comment you use the word 'might'. I beliwve you chose the right word. I also believe that word underscores the problem. There were knowledgeable people who suspected it might happen (you were one of them) and knowledgeable people who didn't foresee it, or at least didn't foresee the extreme level of violence that would accompany Sadam's removal.
But it did happen and that's the reality we have to deal with. Wars are born of passion and anger and not always given to clear thinking. It might at some future time be a good lesson to draw on, but each generation and nation and individual has to make their own mistakes. So it seems to me anyway.
It would be nice to believe there would never be another war, but how likely is that?
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#258. At 8:07pm on 30 May 2010, MaudDib,
You are so right, when I first started in IT in 1969 I was given a sheet with the rules of Murphy's law, the first law being 'if anything can go wrong it will'. What a pity the inventors of the EU did not receive the same sensible piece of advice I did, but then maybe they did and just ignored it in the vain attempt to prove they are in some way more intelligent than a single cell organism.
BTW MAII, just why did escapists in Europe go to America and why did some of their brightest sons like Hiram Maxim quickly exit the American dream once they realised that twisters like Edison were the inmates controlling the asylum and is there any difference these days.
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WA,
DID YOU KNOW,
Evan Lysacek was a finalist here in America in Dancing with the Stars and finished second ---
in Ballroom Dancing.
That to me is impressive ...he danced with professional ball room dancers as one of the stars ....and he probably should have won....lets see ....who won?
I work at nite so dont watch this show. But I forget who won. "whats their name" won. But, I remember that Evan Lysacek danced in it.
Hehe, Eurovision is just a show and its YOUR show ...have fun with it...enjoy :)
And QOT,
This is a difficult question which cant be answered. So, no offense,
Who was right? in the decision to meet the Russians at the Elbe? Churchill wanted to invade the Balkans and cut the Russians off from Europe, but Roosevelt said no, we will meet them at the Elbe.
So why was this the right thing to do or was it the right thing to do....I must confess ...I was a lover of war history and this question is not to embarrass you, just to engage you on topics that you ....know and have enjoyed.:)
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#242 - quietoaktree
Yes, I know they were not directed at me.
Credentials in the sense of an understanding of things British rather than mere factual knowledge is what I meant - in other words 'competence'. That is a perfectly good definition of the word in my mother tongue of which I do profess to have an understanding. However, cbw is absolutely right at #250 above. Doing battle with all this prejudice just is not worth the candle.
Talking of which, I see that DT has finally blown his cover of intellectual pyrotechnics and exposed himself as a fully paid up member of the bigot's union (#257 - commonsense_expressway - Hail and Amen!).
For the record, on Iraq, the persecution of the Marsh Arabs (and, for that matter, the Kurds) was something that was supposed to be prevented by the introduction of the no fly zones. This was, you may recall, something on which the then UK Prime Minister insisted and the failure to enforce it should have served as a warning as to the real purpose of the second campaign. The first war could and should, with the wisdom of hindsight, have been pursued to its logical conclusion because it was possible to do so and because it was undeniably legitimate under international law. The problem I have always had with the second campaign is not one of legitimacy. Had the evidence been credible and overwhelming, there would have been a case to be made. The bottom line is that it was so flimsy and, as it transpired, flawed that it could only have been fabricated. Thus, changing horses in midstream and deciding that it was, despite all previous denials, about regime change after all does not bear scrutiny.
It may very well be that, in the long run, Iraq will be a better place for it but that in no way justifies the shabby and shallow justification used to embark on it.
As for the EU - which is what we are supposed to be discussing - it is fraught with problems and possibly heading in the wrong direction. That does not make it, in the words of EUpris, ". . . a sick, arrogant, wasteful, arrogant, useless, pain-in-the-wotsit, expensive, dangerous, nauseating, anti-democratic, megalomaniac, pompous, smug, unnecessary, truth-denying monstrosity."
This is precisely the kind of blind prejudice I will have nothing to do with whether in comes from a bigoted insider or a visitor from elsewhere (normally welcome) who seeks to use these columns to heap insults on others for the sheer hell of it.
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#261 - David
Your question was directed at QOT but I would like to express a view. In the event, it did not matter very much. Stalin had given undertakings regarding the independence of central European nations which he clearly had no intention of honouring. Churchill saw this clearly when he predicted 'an iron curtain' descending across Europe. On the other hand, Tito refused to bow to Stalin and moved Yugoslavia to a non-aligned status which, in the short term, meant that the Balkans (apart from Bulgaria) did not fall under Soviet influence. This could have been considered a reasonable result until we were confronted with the tragedy which unfolded in the aftermath of the break up of the Yugoslav Federation.
There was actually nothing to be achieved by going head to head with the Soviets in either theatre post 1946. Everyone involved was simply too exhausted by the economic and human catastrophe of the previous five years.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
commonsense,
Yes, you're right. That was the point of my post. I concede the point that I am unreasonably anti-british, and further that this is a flaw in my character. I admit it. Truth be told, I'd prefer if it wasn't so. If it makes you feel any better, I'll try to watch that and work on it to improve myself.
By the way, the british are not a "race". They are a culture. I do not think you can compare racial bigotry and cultural bigotry. That is not to make excuses for myself being anti-british, but I am not a racist.
And I do think it is useful to have prejudices about culture. Otherwise you end up approving of nasty practices like human sacrifice and genital mutilation because "that is their culture and we must respect it".
But you are right. I do have unreasonable prejudices, and my character is flawed. I apologize for offending those who are British through no fault of their own. I'll try to improve my character.
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#262 Threnedio
You mean credentials like snobs have ?
I should point out this Blog has INTERNATIONAL contributors and Britishness is hardly accepted as `credentials´ no matter how much you appear to wish they were.
Your credentials of experience are obviously lacking, as is your experience of ´credentials ´.
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#263 Threnodio
I suggest you read ´Special Operations Europe - Scenes From The Anti-Nazi war ´ by basil Davidson 1980.
It may (but I now doubt it ) expand your knowledge of the Balkan war to more than the official British version.
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Greece suffers more consequences of its decision to cut the price of pharmaceutica products 25%.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10193799.stm
"Another Danish pharmaceutical company is withdrawing products from Greece in protest at the government's decision to cut the prices of medicines by 25%.
The Leo Pharma company says it is suspending sales of two popular drugs because the price reductions will cause job losses across Europe.
The Greek government is struggling with a debt crisis.
It has condemned as unfair the action of Leo Pharma, and another Danish company, Novo Nordisk.
Supply embargo?
The decision by Leo Pharma to suspend distribution of an anti blood-clotting agent and a remedy for psoriasis takes Greece one step closer towards an all-out boycott by medical suppliers.
Kristian Hart Hansen, a senior director of the company, said the 25% price reduction would encourage similar moves in other countries with large debt problems such as Ireland and Italy.
He warned that unless the company took action, there would job losses across Europe, including Denmark where the company is based."
So the journey continues on Europe's spiral path downward.
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You are at Peace then, Democracy Threat?
Oh nooooo. I was just learning stuff from you ....
Keep posting...I used to Hate Straight men. I thought all were deep down prejudiced...now I realize they are just human....
Darnnn, there went my whole men are pigs crap. But, Im finding as I get older prejudices elsewhere ....Young whippersnappers bug me alot more and more...so pushy...
But then they like the gays ...heheheh darnnnnnn
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#261 David
My interest in recent history and present politics had ( and still has ) one main purpose. Those who require me to go into war and kill, should have some damn good reasons.
Britishness or American-ness are poor arguments.
The British refused to help Tito because he was a Communist, aid went to the Chetniks instead who fought the partisans rather than the Germans. This mistake did not go un-noticed by the British troops on the ground who saw Tito as the real ally.
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#268 Marcus
You are really grasping at straws to get attention !
The news is now OLD !
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well, i will not call you noisy acorn because of my love of
the same history that you like and I hate war but actually I hate America being
hated (and If I look thru my binoculars at an Iranian and saw their pretty faces...well) Id be dead...
There is intellect and fear of dying in everyone and it must not be pettily applied (death)
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I was not born back then but I vaguely think Tito was first a USSR friend because parts of Jugoslavia fought excellently well in the partisan war when occupied and were of great help stumbling German deliveries to the Eastern Front (to us), and then (but when I need to ask mum) Tito sent Stalin to hell and we fell out with him.
Who quarrelled with who - un-sure. Just two independent characters I think.
But it is believed here Stalin didn't dare (and "double-dare" :o)
to take Tito on, as the memories how well they fight were still fresh on, and the Jugoslavian suppression case was ruled out as impossible.
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David, the decision to meet Red Army on Elbe was "right" don't even doubt.
Of practical needs to Europe there and then rest assured it meant nil :o))))) (wouldn't have changed anything at that point, whoever planned what :o))))))))))
but for the future Cold War years held a hesitating hand I would think couople of times. We are sentimental and for Russia the Allies in war meant 2 things: Northern Convoys and Meeting on Elbe.
(we fought diff. geogrpahical fronts and haven't met anyone ever but in these 2 cross-overs)
Without Northern Convoys and Meeting on Elbe Russians would really doubt I know I know - but honest - we wouldn't know (for sure, say :o)
who are Allies or were, at least.
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While on your Western side both things kind of vanished in the depths of history without much attention.
Tastes differ :o)
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MA, you cared to tease me :o), about how Alice is missing the proper USSR television :o))) "dear 5-year plans" :o)))), "reports on the agriculture successes" :o))) .... "instead of modern ugh ! Eurovision" :o))
Dear MA. USSR was part-taking in the Eurovision nothing new in this old world :o(
How do you think the things got swollen otherwise to so many countries-participants right now? It's old USSR-ians awarded for running away from Russia :o))))), by the Eurovision organisers :o)))), who decided it is right and proper to award places like Azerbajan LOL and Armenia and Georgia and who not to consider them "typical Europe" :o)))))
An upgrade to the status of Europe for running away from Russia. IMHO.
(Tell me if you know other reason :o)
Now Kazakhstan is Europe and Turkmenistan will be and Uzbekistan LOL, the criteria for being a "European" is "anything but not Russian" :o))))
Jugoslavia in bits and pieces have also contributed to the q-ty of Eurovision particpants, but these, at least, were always at home in Europe.
Israel is considered to be Europe because Jewish are everywhere in Europe I think.
Hard to say by what the founding fathers are being oriented when they choose who is Europe but I think approx. as I wrote above.
And now they rip the fruit :o) - harder to compete. All USSR-ians are singing having a Russian virus (inclination to sing) , multiplied by own talents. Georgia consists 99% of choirs in population, for example.
Estonia and Latvia are very musical by birth as well.
In other words, I think the Org. commitee , guided by political principles :o)))) made singing competition harder for itself.
But , how to say, a management decision was taken. :o)
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WA,
I think its wonderful and much better than beauty contests which Americans ...excelled...in.
Never winning...too much...but just enough.
But, I agree with you on WW2 because Roosevelt was ruthless and Churchill was an idealist, but out of his depth in that Balkan decision and all knew it.....I guess.
But, Churchill could always say it was America's fault-the Cold War.
And, Russia HAD SUFFERED rape, mass death and it was no nation to mess with--I think the war was over in peoples minds and like you say Stalin was insincere, but in charge.
No one had a taste for further hiroshimas either, one would think
BUT I DO THINK ITS A CONUNDRUM AS WELL. TO ME.
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I just realized my mistake, VJ came after VG day....ooops....still good thing yalta existed hmmmmmm?
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David, the thing is I can't explain any thing. We sing it :o), what we think :o), and most people abroad (110% on average :o) snob at what Russians think. that is, sing. think-sing.
And then these people :o)))) call us enigma :o)))) wrapped into Shaherezada riddles (and wonder why Perestroyka, so easy, and all. :o))))
Nobody never listens and then wonders! standing in their shoes, sport-shoes and sniekers or whatever - and wonder!
see here, I am dis-armed as well. What can I do with this alphabet.
all that I want to say is either suspected of authorship rights, or is using a foreign language, or referring to sites which don't have translation in English, any youtube later than silent black and white films :o))))) of 1935 :o)))) with a taper music are ruled out, I can't sing here, can't quote and can't give links. It's like a sign language of the numb that I am using as comms. Similar condition hands tied.
:o))))
But it's true.
What can I do but fool around and joke.
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Gavin,
I am sick of the sight of Barrosso. Please could we have another article or at least a different picture?
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David wrote:
"You are at Peace then, Democracy Threat?
Oh nooooo. I was just learning stuff from you ....
Keep posting...I used to Hate Straight men."
Check it out, Marcus. You too, CBW. Mad props for the DT, nuh?
Democracythreat has the power to bring love into the hearts of the hateful and bring peace unto his community.
He is also beginning to refer to himself in the third person, to see how that goes over with the quality.
By the way, what is the deal with our intrepid reporter?
Have I mentioned my disgust at his slothful work ethic before? It's a disgrace. I won't say it is typically british, because I'm getting better than that.
But it isn't good.
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"...here women search - but all they find - is oldage only :o)
here a measure of work done - is tiredness
here are no fat cats in offices done in leather
here the first ones look suspiciously like the last ones
and these first ones - can very well be - are also fed up
to
be tied
by one chain
to be forged
into one chain
to be tied
by one chain
to be chained
into one chain"
(that's what?
that's Russia singing in 1980)
"Changes! Demand our hearts
Changes! Demand our eyes
In our laughter... In our tears... impulsing of veins!
Changes! We wait for the change! "
(that's what? when a 30-thousand stadium recites this?
That's USSR 1984.)
or, "Red on Black". How is that for a song name? :o)
I'd say, 20 yrs in salt mines in Siberia :o))), normally. :o))))
....
Blood group - on my sleeve
My order number - on my sleeve
Wish me good luck in the fight
Wish me
Not to stay in this grass Not to stay in this grass
Wish me good luck in the fight
Wish me...
(that's what? That's Afghanistan)
....
... and over the city go clouds
shutting out the divine light
and over the city - yellow fog
the city is 2,000 yrs old
lived under the light of a star
that goes by the name of Sun
And - for 2 thousand years - war!
War - without special reasons much
War - business of the young!
War - best cure - from wrinkles :o(
Red, red blood
In an hour - it's simply earth
In two hrs - flowers and grass on it
In three hrs - it is live again
And is warmed
by rays of the star
that goes by the name of
Sun ...
..and to fall, burned by the rays of a star
Who goes by the name of
Sun
.....
My Generation - keep quiet, in corners
My Generation - don't dare to sing
My Generation - is feeling pain
But again put themselves under knut
Hey! Generation! Answer me!
Do you hear me? I've come to help you stand up!
__________
only a deaf would wonder oh how come :o)))), where is USSR :o)))
______________
... when all the songs qet quiet down...
the ones - that I never knew ....
In the quiet air - will whistle
My last... paper... steamboat
Good Bye, America O
Where I have never been !
Take a banjo, play me, for the road :o)))
... they got too small for me now
your scrubbed-out jeans
For so long we were taught
To love your forbidden fruit :o)
So - Good Bye, America, O!
Where I shall never be!
Will I hear a song , at least?
To remember, for the road ? :o)
___________
and this I think will be still appliccable. though not for us anymore.
again by you, road, my desires are burned down
I've got - neither God. nor Devil. nor a wife.
Away - stayed West.
East - is not my East.
And behind my back - a distinct smell - of the burning bridges.
.. the thirteenth soldier today I'll die - and don't give a fig.
I don't know, even, how to live
To say nothing - how to murder
the Country - she'll hang epaulettes
Onto the ones who will survive
And - to hell - with amulets! and - worn away - will be the names on plaques
And we - are leaving early
Got tangled up in debts
With a smile of D'Artagnian
In cowboy boots
..and, by mirage of desert - killed - dead
I walk, as on the swamp - on someone elses' heads
I go - as an old boy
where my eyes lead me
You think I'm a liar?
No.
I'm a Kipling soldier.
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"The call for strikes across Europe suggests that not everyone is quite the believer that Mr Barroso would like them to be."
Especially those not buddy-buddy with the big wallets & wheels like all politicos seem to be.
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WA,
Now finally I think my life is not wasted.....but
YOU YOU YOU
Such love of sentiment/thoughts expressed in song. DID you know that downtrodden peoples the world over play in song?
Diana Ross got started by singing with other girls on street corners in the USA..yes the USA..dont evn get me started.
Your love of lyrics is poetry expressing your inside mind
TY TY TY
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yes dt i 2 am flawed giggle giggle bi bi
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My theory is this..the moderators are few..decently paid but
famously overworked...anglo-saxon tradition:)
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#244 DurstigerMann
Excellent , you said it beautifully !
Perhaps the crisis of the Euro is a Godsend , that will enable the European People to break the present EU - Commission , Bureaucracy and Parliament - giving the People of Europe a chance to create a united Europe their way . Politicians can only see the political , but I do not think that is what we the people want .
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#262 Threnodio_II
Europris's description of the EU is completely right , even if you choose not to see it that way .
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cool_brush_work wrote:
"Do You not see Your complaint about France & Germany reveals that the USA & UK actually needed those 2 nations at their side if the Iraq episode was to have stood a beter chance of success in the longterm?"
Obviously, in the end they were not needed. Using your logic I wouldn't be able to routinely accomplish things at work that others should also be participating in.
"It is precisely the same now: The USA has vast fortunes invested in EUropean-UK business & they in turn have the same in the USA. If either EUrope/UK/USA were to collapse the rest would fold-up too!"
Nonsense. America would be just fine considering the vast resources it still has available to it.
"Your shortsightedness is truly scary at times! The comfort is in knowing from countless other Americans that You are a windbag minority with this excessive disregard of Europe & also clearly You are unable to grasp much about basic Economics which just puts You in the same league as Dubya Bush & Sarah Palin..."
Actually, his views are typically common sense American. I agree with the majority of what he says.
If you consider yourself liberal, in accordance with the original meaning of the word, then you should learn to be tolerant of the views of so many Americans like him.
"Oh wait! Blimey, we had 1 ninny President, surely not another..."
Abraham Lincoln, considered one of America's greatest presidents, suspended Habeus Corpus, something Bush never did, so was he a "ninny" too?
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QuietOakTree
Your reason for commenting on this Forum , seems to be exclusively for
" Slagging Off " Britain , The Queen , The Aristocracy , Politicians and the People . The bitterness you feel towards Britain and All things British , must have been from personal experiences or indoctrination in your earlier life . When people ask ," What are your Credentials ", they want to know where your Anglo Xenophobia is coming from ; not your nationality or curriculum vitae .
You give the impression of a lonely person ; I wonder whether you grew up in Germany during the war and the British came and smashed everything and killed everyone dear to you . I am guessing that you are too young to have been a Prisoner of War in Britain . Many German prisoners were quite happy in Britain during the war , going to work on farms .
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The European commission has a website Europa , which until the end of February ran a Forum , in which I sometimes made comments . I have to say the Forum was more like Facebook , Twittering or a Chatline . The European subject matter was soon replaced by viscious personal attacks on other participants . The most dreadful things could be said and the moderators said and did nothing .
I wonder whether it was closed down , because most of the comments were anti EU , when the EU is spending vast sums on propaganda to promote the EU .
I also wonder whether Barosso and his fellow Commissioners ever get to read these Blogs and all the derogatory comments .
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quietoaktree
Your comments at 266 and 267 are what I have come to expect of you and I will not dignify them with an answer. Far more revealing is when you finally got around (at 270) to addressing David's original question to you - or rather not addressing it. You make no reference to the arrangements at the Elbe, none about the agreement with Stalin. You only express your view of Churchill's response to Tito. It says a great deal about you seizing any opportunity to attack Britain and nothing about your knowledge of Balkan affairs or European political reality at the time. Classic straw-clutching if ever I saw it.
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aw who cares bout him ..threnodio 2?
quit focusing on a person you cannot win with...
I know u deal with ur way and vice versa..
the thing is u and cbw are the people i listen to...
my stars to follow in the navigation of the future
Enjoy ur life here I enjoy ur life here:)
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Listen to me, Threnodio
in a pinch I know stuff, so
The EU is not finished...its just in limbo...untill these zealots get old and die or finish out their terms in office
The Next EU (2nd republic) will be government to government....not opt out but an alliance/entente cordiale with Common Market/Schengen plan options.
The EU office will be wherever the major powers meet...or the minor powers there meet ...
Blah blah and furthermore...you see where I'm going...its got to be a popular and successful road...financial policy is where its at.
and nations need to have that option of doing different things, not one size fits all...
They need to stay sovereign cultures and sovereign popular democratic (however one defines it) governments separate from each other but
dependent on each other for superpower type powers...
Together the big 6? UK, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Italy..
The others form Scandinavia, eastern EU and mediterranean EU..
But sovereignty intact and best self interests intact.
After that who knows...dont give in just give
and be in a position of strength...when you do deal:)
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on a topical note, WA, here is well known comedy routine
have you heard Im doing the sequel to Emmanuelle
I call it Temple Emmanuelle
No sex at all
just a bunch of kissing of Mazzuzahs
and eating and obssessing about creplox
I know that one or two of you out there dont
have the vaguest idea of what the heck is a creplox
from 1975
To both of you I say
A creplox is a person from creploxia
you never hear too much from them
since the Iron Curtain fell
But now and again one or two creplox
manage to escape but never to Cleveland....
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DemocThreat
Re #253
Think I should start by re-stating that having read #253, IMO, 'what a crock of nonsense'!
Leave it to You whether You have the nerve to read on.
You finally admit to being "..anti-British..": Big deal, that was something anyone reading Your disgracefully prejudiced and grotesquely distorted stuff about 'English-speaking peoples' already knew a very long time ago.
You go on to compound this unsubtle personal weakness:
Quote, "...like Israel.. (Britain).. after WW1 & WW2.. it contains the dregs of its former society.."
Israel? Britain? So, it appears You are anti-Semitic as well as crudely offensive!
A man of Your intellect MUST well know that Israel was founded from those who survived the Holocaust - - those 'dregs' from the Camps of Europe - - You couldn't sink any lower in my estimation after I read that particular link-up: Shame on You!
"..(Britain) dregs.."! Well, I suppose I should not take it too personally: My Anglo-Finn daughter and her Scottish husband living there.
Or, are You even worse than You've already confessed and actually referring to those of 'colour' in Your view of modern G.B..?
Afterall, if as You say, "..anyone with brains.. desire for a decent life... got out long ago..", then what about the millions of Commonwealth immigrants to G.B.?
Personally, I find that huge majority of those immigrants have made an enormous contribution to the vitality and on-going success of the UK.
I strongly suspect from reading this #253 & much of Your stuff that the very basic reason You don't like the 'English-speaking peoples' of the UK & USA is that at some stage in Your life You, 'COULDN'T HACK IT' ín entrepreneurial-multi-cultural Anglo-Saxon society! So, You scuttled off to a safe little Nation where You could pontificate at a safe, unchallenged distance about all that is wrong with the Nations that had showed-up Your fragility (ego etc.).
Frankly, I read #253 4 times and thought about it overnight: Was I being too judgemental? Is it too harsh a verdict from my perspective? Shouldn't everyone be given countless chances to correct their abhorrent views?
As I read down the rest of it I just sensed the tired, embittered, occasionally outraged thoughts of an old man who once could hold his own and now is well past his prime.
The following would be funny if it weren't so sickening:
Quote, "..I understand it isn't possible that everyone in the UK is a degenerate human being..".
Well, thank You so much for that: It is a load off everyone's mind that DemocThreat can determine some residue of laudable life forms still exist in the British Isles.
Personally, what I read in those first 5 paragraphs of #253 and Your contributions that preceded it left me 'incredibly sad' that after a lifetime that is ALL You have to say about people. Sure, You dress it up, but in reality, when push-comes-to-shove You don't find MAII "..obnoxious..", You just dislike looking at a reflection!
I don't propose to continue this dialogue with You. I don't propose to enter into much dialogue, if any, with You in the future. That may well suit You, too: If so all well and good.
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I think Britain is cool...and some peoples views overrated.
Britain is the USA's true friend, from choice, not need.:)
Everything we learned we learned from Britain (UK)....culture, language and justice systems/gov.
Churchill is our favorite all time British person. :)
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AllenT2
Re #289
No, I cannot agree with Your viewpoint: It is a Globalised World, and its a great deal more dependent on each other than at any time since the Roman Empire set the limits for the 'known civilised' World (Asia, Americas etc. not being known to Europe - - they were of course alternative civilisations).
USA & UK would have fared much better in the Iraq campaign had they had the backing & involvement of France & Germany - - internationally it would have looked & acted in a more rational way - - Dubya's "..you're either with us or against us.." is just the hyperbole of a very limited man.
Similarly, this World recession required everyone on-board with the same methods of easing the Economic-Fiscal fall-out: Hence Obama to Brown to G20 'bailing-out' Banks, Businesses & each other's Nation.
Being 'liberal' does not mean agreeing with, but does indeed mean 'tolerating' upto a point MAII, You, me, uncle tom & auntie tina cobley etc.
It does not mean I should be accepting of views that are distinctly weird or intolerant of others: I have American friends who plainly do not see things from Your perspective & know a coupe who would 100% agree with MAII that EUrope shpuld be shafted at the first opportunity after the way it has behaved in the last decade. They express that view freely to me & I reply fairly much as I'm doing to You, MAII etc. on here: The World is fortunately for all Humanity a better place than in Roman Empire days - - yes, the armies still march to teach others a 'lesson' from Rome (Washington/London) - - however, there is now an international consideration in every Nation's behaviours (even the new power-on-the-block, China, doesn't have the clout of former imperial authorities) & in that sense France/Germany etc. were within their rights to betray the USA-UK, though I feel they made a longterm strategically very poor decision.
Basically, You are in error if You think the USA can go it alone in the any of these: Political-economic-cultural; we are all wrapped up in this World together.
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WebAliceinwonderland: The Buran Babushkas’ cover of Yesterday was interesting. Was one of the babushkas lip-synching? (See 1:22 to 1:28 in the video.) Maybe it just looked that way because of the video editing.
Peter Nalitch’s Whooly is unfamiliar to me. Does he perform songs that are neither his own nor in the public domain?
MarcusAureliusII: On post 223, were you to look over the Swiss constitution of 1848, you might see applied results of their study of the US constitution.
democracythreat: Regarding the tail-end of post 253, today is Memorial Day here in the States (our analogue of Remembrance Day), and while thinking about those who had lost their lives while in uniform, I reread a speech given by Senator George Norris in opposition to President Wilson’s request of Congress to enter WWI. A longish extract follows:
[…] I have no doubt but that in a great many instances, through what I believe to be a misunderstanding of the real condition, there are many honest, patriotic citizens who think we ought to engage in this war and who are behind the President in his demand that we should declare war against Germany. I think such people err in judgment and to a great extent have been misled as to the real history and the true facts by the almost unanimous demand of the great combination of wealth that has a direct financial interest in our participation in the war.
We have loaned many hundreds of millions of dollars to the Allies in this controversy. While such action was legal and countenanced by international law, there is no doubt in my mind but the enormous amount of money loaned to the Allies in this country has been instrumental in bringing about a public sentiment in favor of our country taking a course that would make every bond worth a hundred cents on the dollar and making the payment of every debt certain and sure. Through this instrumentality and also through the instrumentality of others who have not only made millions out of the war in the manufacture of munitions, etc., and who would expect to make millions more if our country can be drawn into the catastrophe, a large number of the great newspapers and news agencies of the country have been controlled and enlisted in the greatest propaganda that the world has ever known to manufacture sentiment in favor of war.
It is now demanded that the American citizens shall be used as insurance policies to guarantee the safe delivery of munitions of war to belligerent nations. The enormous profits of munition manufacturers, stockbrokers, and bond dealers must be still further increased by our entrance into the war. This has brought us to the present moment, when Congress, urged by the President and backed by the artificial sentiment, is about to declare war and engulf our country in the greatest holocaust that the world has ever known.
In showing the position of the bondholder and the stockbroker, I desire to read an extract from a letter written by a member of the New York Stock Exchange to his customers. This writer says:
Here we have the Wall Street view. Here we have the man representing the class of people who will be made prosperous should we become entangled in the present war, who have already made millions of dollars, and who will make many hundreds of millions more if we get into the war. Here we have the cold-blooded proposition that war brings prosperity to that class of people who are within the viewpoint of this writer.
He expresses the view, undoubtedly, of Wall Street, and of thousands of men elsewhere who see only dollars coming to them through the handling of stocks and bonds that will be necessary in case of war. “Canada and Japan,” he says, “are at war, and are more prosperous than ever before.”
To whom does war bring prosperity? Not to the soldier who for the munificent compensation of $16 per month shoulders his musket and goes into the trench, there to shed his blood and to die if necessary; not to the brokenhearted widow who waits for the return of the mangled body of her husband; not to the mother who weeps at the death of her brave boy; not to the little children who shiver with cold; not to the babe who suffers from hunger; nor to the millions of mothers and daughters who carry broken hearts to their graves. War brings no prosperity to the great mass of common and patriotic citizens. It increases the cost of living of those who toil and those who already must strain every effort to keep soul and body together. War brings prosperity to the stock gambler on Wall Street — to those who are already in possession of more wealth than can be realized or enjoyed.
Again this writer says that if we cannot get war, “it is nevertheless good opinion that the preparedness program will compensate in good measure for the loss of the stimulus of actual war.” That is, if we cannot get war, let us go as far in that direction as possible. If we cannot get war, let us cry for additional ships, additional guns, additional munitions, and everything else that will have a tendency to bring us as near as possible to the verge of war. And if war comes, do such men as these shoulder the musket and go into the trenches?
Their object in having war and in preparing for war is to make money. Human suffering and the sacrifice of human life are necessary, but Wall Street considers only the dollars and the cents. The men who do the fighting, the people who make the sacrifices are the ones who will not be counted in the measure of this great prosperity that he depicts. The stockbrokers would not, of course, go to war because the very object they have in bringing on the war is profit, and therefore they must remain in their Wall Street offices in order to share in that great prosperity which they say war will bring. […]
We are taking a step today that is fraught with untold danger. We are going into war upon the command of gold. We are going to run the risk of sacrificing millions of our countrymen’s lives in order that other countrymen may coin their lifeblood into money. And even if we do not cross the Atlantic and go into the trenches, we are going to pile up a debt that the toiling masses that shall come many generations after us will have to pay. Unborn millions will bend their backs in toil in order to pay for the terrible step we are now about to take.
We are about to do the bidding of wealth’s terrible mandate. […]
There have been, and are, English-speaking people who understand this.
PS: 281, word up on the third-persizzle.
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"As late as 1982 Jaruselski imposed Marshal Law in Poland the result of the Gdansk strikes led by Lech Walessa. At that time he feared Soviet tanks would roll into Poland just as they had rolled into Hungary in 1956 and into Czechoslovakia in 1968."
Actually, Jaruzelski, a Soviet military intelligence officer (Razvedka, later GRU) has specifically requested Soviet military assistance in 1981.
[Suslov declined, not willing to take a blame for a bloodbath].
Polish Solidarity Union has survived years of marshall law only because of a coordinated logistic assistance by AFL-CIO and Vatican, coordinated by Ronald Reagan (hardware and money) and John Paul II (transport and distribution through the Polish Catholic Church's network).
Take it from somebody who actively participated in that endeavour.
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#299. At 09:26am on 31 May 2010, Jan_Keeskop,
That is an interesting speech that you've found and shows that money and/or political posturing are behind almost all wars. I'm wondering at this moment in time just what the angles are with the two Koreas and should they go to war who will support them and who will make the profit. No doubt the arms dealers of both the USA and France will already have been there for the South, and no doubt Russia and Chinese arms dealers are there for the North.
In some ways the crises within the EU and the Euro resemble this type of need for 'war' or need for 'class struggle', the financiers and speculators are making a fortune out of the problems, and the low grade politicians are assisting them with their insane talking up of the Euro and the need for ever increasing integration to win the war against popularism, or as some have said previously, democracy. As many have said, history always repeats itself, and what goes around comes around as life is cyclic.
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cool_brush_work wrote:
"No, I cannot agree with Your viewpoint: It is a Globalised World, and its a great deal more dependent on each other than at any time since the Roman Empire set the limits for the 'known civilised' World (Asia, Americas etc. not being known to Europe - - they were of course alternative civilisations)."
I never suggested the world is not more dependent on "each other" than at any other time in history. I simply disagreed with your emotional view that it would be the end for America.
"USA & UK would have fared much better in the Iraq campaign had they had the backing & involvement of France & Germany - - internationally it would have looked & acted in a more rational way - - Dubya's "..you're either with us or against us.." is just the hyperbole of a very limited man."
How do you figure? That same kind of attitude was what won WWII and other wars of the past when there was still some commonsense and backbones left in the world.
In what decisive way has Germany and France contributed to efforts in Afghanistan? And in what way does it represent the views of the rest of the world to the extent that it is somehow morally superior to those actually fighting against some of the worse human animals this world has ever seen?
"Similarly, this World recession required everyone on-board with the same methods of easing the Economic-Fiscal fall-out: Hence Obama to Brown to G20 'bailing-out' Banks, Businesses & each other's Nation."
No it didn't. Not every country's exposure was the same.
"Being 'liberal' does not mean agreeing with, but does indeed mean 'tolerating' upto a point MAII, You, me, uncle tom & auntie tina cobley etc."
I said nothing about "agreeing with," I said exactly what you quoted me as saying, "tolerating."
As for your idea of tolerance I believe you need to look up the meaning of the word and see how it contrasts with your views and your insulting labels.
"It does not mean I should be accepting of views that are distinctly weird or intolerant of others:"
So that is your criteria, that something merely has to be "weird" sounding to you for intolerance to kick in? Scary.
"I have American friends who plainly do not see things from Your perspective"
And?
"& know a coupe who would 100% agree with MAII that EUrope shpuld be shafted at the first opportunity after the way it has behaved in the last decade."
Well, when you consider that much, if not most, of the reasoning behind attempting to fool and force the citizens of European countries to become a federation or nation is Anti-American a view like his shouldn't be too surprising.
"They express that view freely to me & I reply fairly much as I'm doing to You, MAII etc. on here:"
I doubt that very much. It's always easier to be insulting and disrespectful online.
"The World is fortunately for all Humanity a better place than in Roman Empire days - - yes, the armies still march to teach others a 'lesson' from Rome (Washington/London) - - however, there is now an international consideration in every Nation's behaviours (even the new power-on-the-block, China, doesn't have the clout of former imperial authorities) & in that sense France/Germany etc. were within their rights to betray the USA-UK, though I feel they made a longterm strategically very poor decision."
Their "poor decision" was not merely them disagreeing with America and the UK but them actively working against them. That wasn't surprising though coming from the two most important countries supporting the anti-American EU.
"Basically, You are in error if You think the USA can go it alone"
It already has. It effectively did it in Iraq and it effectively did it in the first Gulf War. It will continue to do so where it feels it is within its national interests, as will every other nation.
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David wrote:
"Everything we learned we learned from Britain (UK)....culture, language and justice systems/gov."
Nonsense.
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#293 David
I took time to answer your question to me -- thanks for what appears to be a double-cross !
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Hey cool_brush_work I find it interesting that you didn't reply to my remark about Abraham Lincoln. :)
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# 293 David
I withdraw # 304 , Sorry --- I did not see your contribution #272
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Mr.Hewitt,
With all my respect for the efforts you made so far in order to appear as an impartial and good intended reporter, I start thinking of you and of your bosses as of people who really would gloat over any abortive attempt of the Brussels administration to save the euro project along with the European project itself.
What I mean is that your selective way of commenting what Mr.Barosso, Frau Merkel, Signore Berlusconi, or whatever other European leader have said, makes me believe that the euroscepticism in old Britain is gaining more and more ground than it had under the last three labor cabinets. At times, I wonder which side you Brits are on. To make myself clearer, I think that what is missing in your reports is a careful analysis of the interactive relationship between any local government people/businessmen and the Brussels administration when it comes to land some big credit for such or such doubtful project that is to be executed under the supervision of such or such member state. That ‘strictly confidential’ relationship, I presume, was in the core of any trouble the EU had already had, to start from the badly balanced projects that are to be funded and that somehow received the benediction of the EU and to finish with the falsified budget accounts…. What I mean also is the lack of independent corrector, say, some kind of independent court of justice which would assess the activities of the EU institutions.
Instead, you commented, though in a very cautious way: how the Eurocrats would assess the 'chauvinistic' position Frau Merkel had over the fiscal crisis (but you clean forgot to mention what she had argued many times in favor of the further strengthening of the control over the fiscal discipline); or how Mr.Barosso was concerned about the future of the integration, both economic and political, without mentioning a word about the rescue plan any member states of the eurozone, as well as many governments outside of it, are adopting now in order to cut the budget deficit; or how Mr.Barosso did comment what had already come as bad intended critics from the English speaking world, without insinuating, as any professional journalist would do, what government Mr.Barosso had in mind; and last but not least, how the populism, Mr.Barosso pointed to, was believed to be the most important danger along with the xenophobia and the chauvinism to both the EU and Europe itself, without even trying to mention all those positive results many politicians, good intended party leaders, scholars and intellectuals have succeeded to achieve since the end of the last war (I mean the evident victory of the west type of democracy over the bureaucratic, totalitarian type of the societies we had in Eastern Europe, the economic integration of the European nations that successfully counteracted the traditional chauvinism of almost all European nations, etc.)
Of course, I do not share entirely what Mr.Barosso said about the Brussels officials as being the only people who have been long clunging to the idea that unless the (Europeans) are expanding their economic cooperation, or integration further, the whole project would lose momentum. I assume, as I mentioned above, that when pleading for new ideas that would improve the functioning of the EU, we should not forget how to improve the proper functioning of the Brussels institutions themselves. Because, being in the business myself, I can not imagine how some badly balanced project would be approved, funded, started, executed and supervised without the collaboration of some highly ranked corrupt EU official… Behind the evident fraud of the former Greek government, one should seek the ‘bad guys’ also in Brussels…i.e. around Mr.Barosso himself.
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Yes, the current global competition is not between products/services as it is not between companies which produce them. The competiion is not between countries. Neither is it between regions.
The current global competition is between those who can generate ideas. But the idea must be of relalistic and significant sort that can bring a better world!
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AT2 #303;
"David wrote:
"Everything we learned we learned from Britain (UK)....culture, language and justice systems/gov."
Nonsense."
It really is nonsense. Our government is structured entirely differently. It was deliberately fashioned in such a way as to never have the possibility of becoming a European style dictatorship including a British dictatorship which are still the substance of most European governments today. (I'm not sure about how Switzerland works but I have my suspicions.)
Among the vast and important differences, no written down constitution in easy to understand words in plain language ordinary people can readily study and understand (even so the US Constitution still undergoes perpetual debate by legal scholars as to its precise meaning, imagine what large, conflicting, conplex, imprecise constitutions such as the EU's and Britan's result in) no separation of powers, (I'm not clear about the division of powers), no bill of rights, and many Constitutional rights Americans take for granted diluted or absent altogether. Even the judiciary is made up of people who have institutionalized aristocratic status as do most of the prosecutors. And they seem to form a tidy little club of old boy (and now old girl) networks.
The series Rumpole of the Bailey was interesting to me for many reasons. I assume it was not only at least somewhat reflective of life in Britain during its time frame (mostly the 1980s) but so were legal proceedings as portrayed. There were clearly no protections against unreasonable search and seizure as police didn't seem to need search warrantws and could go on fishing expeditions when they broke into someone's home even on the most trivial of crimes. Leading questions and heresay seemed admissable in court. And the judge was often an advocate for one side or the other, usually the prosecution rather than merely a referee enforcing the rules and explaining the meaning of the law to the jury, then allowing them to decide without prejudice on his part. The horsehair wigs, the red Santa Claus suits the judges wore (probably gone now), the addressing the judges as My Lord, all spoke of a system of unequals in law.
When you get down to it, our systems really are worlds and worlds apart. It was therefore insteresting to hear one of the US Supreme Court judges on C-Span 2 a few months ago talk about how he was mildly rebuked by his colleagues on the Court because he sometimes referred to judgments on cases similar to those being abjudicted before the court that were decided in foreign countries. It seemed to them that under entirely different rules of evidence, the lines of reasoning and conclusions would not necessarily apply in the system of American jurisprudence.
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noisy little acorn #271
"#268 Marcus
You are really grasping at straws to get attention !"
You on the other hand seem to attract attention naturally like horse manure attracts flies.
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Drugstore man;
"I don`t know whether it was about survival or whatever that made the anglo-saxian area much more liberal in this issue ."
There is a misconception that the original colonial Amerian heritage is entirely anglo-saxon. That is not true. New York City which was America's first capital (I think even before Philadelphia) and remains its largest city to this very day was originally settled by the Dutch and was called New Amsterdam. If I remember its history correctly it was settled in 1624 and its first Governor was Peter Minuet. Its last governor under the Dutch was Peter Stuyvesant. The British renamed it New York after the Duke of York after seizing it in 1664. Much Dutch influence remains and the entire region still has many Dutch names for places. Brooklyn, Harlem, Kill van Kull, and into the Catskills such as Kerhonksen, and down towards Philadelphia such as Conshahaken (sp?) Further west the Pennsylvania Dutch were actually originally German settlers, the term Dutch being a distortion of Deutch. To say that America's early heritage is strictly Anglo Saxon is incorrect. It may surprise many that the native Americans who were called Indians also had a major influence. There are many Indian names as well. My own town has a Native American name although I won't say what it is here.
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Now to the Brits.
I have said MANY times that I agree with the general viewpoint that democracy is lacking in the EU is that clear !!!!!
The INCESSANT repetition of that view and the failings of most to compare their own British system of government with that of the EU lacked intellectual honesty. The critique by most of the aforementioned Brits (as always) soon spread to the individual countries and peoples, WWll all over again and again and again.
As yet, not one of you has considered the average bloke on the street, his never ending difficulties, what causes them or how his predicament may be improved. The continual answers are `God save the Queen´, our political and democratic system are second to none as is our history and social structure.
I have dutifully delivered internet links which was required of me and presented my ´Credentials´. and NOT one of the requested pieces of evidence has been treated with the respect required under the ´British tradition´. Arguments from ´Quaint´ to remarks from a retired British officer for all to ignore my contributions to that ´ex- German POW´s return to the farms (I knew two of them !).
OK, I can also throw in irrelevant information which you all know.
You all know that Jersey turned Jews over to the Nazis for deportation and slapped a 50 year statute of limitations on the act. ?
You all know that Churchill turned over the Cossacks to Stalin and the mothers were smashing the heads of their children and they were attempting suicide before the British troops could hand them over. Every couple of days the British soldiers had to be changed -- sounds like a WAR CRIME to me and to you ?
Is all this Anti-British or is it only being factual, what are you trying to hide from this Blog ?
I will leave the financial critique of your views to John_from_hendon.
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AllenT2
Re #289 & #302
To some extent I think we are unintentionally writing at cross-purposes.
Pres. Abraham Lincoln was facing a Civil War: He supsended Habeus Corpus as the Union faced insurgent activity by the Confederacy's supporters. An entirely understandable reaction to a situation never before experienced by a USA Presidency.
Comparing Abe & Dubya on a scale of 10 = A fine, civilised intellectual mind coupled to a farsighted understanding of what was best for America.
IMO, Abe scores 9 and Dubya around 3, maybe 3.5. My only pick for a straight 10 would be F.D.R. (Washington, Grant, Wilson, Truman, Reagan? Hmm!)
Similarly in G.B. I could award Pitt the Younger a 9, Chamberlain 3.5, and IMO only Atlee would get the 10 (Palmerston, Disraeli, LloydGeorge, Churchill, Thatcher? Hmm!).
Now, as to, "..your (my) views.. insulting labels..".
I'm unsure what exactly You are getting at: Maybe You have an impression I am 'anti-American' when nothing is further from the truth as even the slightest reading of my more recent Comments and those expressed over years clearly display.
My 'view' is the USA needs the UK, EUrope etc. just as they need it: My view is that NATO stands head & shoulders above any feeble EU armed forces concoction. My view is the USA has been the greatest ally of the UK and of Europe for over a Century; my view is that the USA was basely betrayed by France/Germany & others over Iraq...
My view is You cannot have possibly read my previous contributions to have concluded I am 'insulting' Americans with 'labels' (whatever they are supposed to be?)!
Please, don't go down the WW2 line etc. (my late English father & Belgian mother were both veterans of that episode) and as a former HM Forces volunteer I do know about being 'with' & 'against': The idea that the Iraq scenario is even remotely similar to WW2 is just beyond my concept of reality.
IMO, The "..ninny.." is that Dubya's policy did not have the common sense to step back and ensure it took all of the USA's allies with him in the Iraq campaign. UK's PM Blair & Sec of State Powell tried to get the administration to see that, but the Oval Office did not listen and the Cheney-Rumsfeld neo-cons won the argument. IMO, that 'win' was a loss in the longterm for the US & Iraq: The USA would have fared much better in the court of international opinion and I dare say have had a much more effective aftermath strategy for the unfortunate Iraqis than was evidently available if there had been more back-up from European Nations.
You're right, USA did go-it-alone over Iraq: My, my that worked out so well, didn't it!? As I recall a brilliant Gen Tommy Franks' 4 week military campaign achieved every goal in 2003. Superb US-led effort.
Good old Dubya flew to the aircraft carrier - - 'Mission Accomplished' - - and 9 years later, 10,000 Americans, 250+ Britons, 750,000+ Iraqis dead, do tell me just how far did the USA get 'alone'?
If You had bothered reading my earlier contributions You would know I fully supported the US invasion, still do, endorsed UK involvement, still do: But, and it is an almighty 'BUT' the cruel debacle of the following years IS a 'stain' on the US-UK that will NEVER be erased, IMO.
From Iraq and a lifetime of experience I have come to the view that the USA needs friends/allies/support as much as any Nation in this 21st Century.
Pres. Bush Snr proclaimed, "..A New World order.." and for a little less than 10 years it appeared he got it right: Of course, we could all justifiably ask where is that 'order' now? It most certainly is not the one envisaged by George & IMO, that significant loss/change is to some degree due to the lack of farsighted policies of Dubya & the neo-cons.
Pres. Obama would seem to be trying to address portions of that new reality and no doubt will experience success & failure in his more 'liberal' minded policies; the jury is still out and much will depend on whether he is returned for a 2nd term.
You don't like/agree with that view: That's fine, this is a debating arena and just as I must tolerate Your opinions so You'll just have to accept not everyone agrees with opinions You, me etc. express.
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#310 Marcus
I know, you are the fly !
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#312
As yet, not one of you has considered the average bloke on the street, his never ending difficulties, what causes them or how his predicament may be improved. The continual answers are `God save the Queen´, our political and democratic system are second to none as is our history and social structure
No Brit on here has EVER said "`God save the Queen´, our political and democratic system are second to none as is our history and social structure". The only person who believes that we think our system is infallible, is YOU. No doubt you assume that a blog on a British website is fair game for you to post unfettered rubbish about the Brits. It wouldnt surprise me, there are others on here who use this blog for the same purpose.
We ARE the average Brit on the street. We are NOT in a predicament or having "never ending difficulties". Even if we were, what business is it of yours? What do you gain from proving it? Will it help you justify your own conceit and boost your German socialist superiority complex?
You lost the debate weeks ago, nothing can change that and this post simply rubs your own face in it. You remind me of a man up to his neck in quicksand, still alive but refusing to accept that stuggling harder is only going to make him die faster"
"Is all this Anti-British or is it only being factual"
Everyone already knows the answer to that one, you arent clever enough to disguise your prejudice.
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#312 - quietoaktree
I do not think that at any point during recent exchanges I have used my arguments to defend British foreign policy either in the immediate post war period or more recently. If I have, perhaps you would point me in the direction of my error. Neither have I suggested that anyone should boycott your comments. What I have said and do not withdraw is that your characterisation of what might perfectly legitimately be seen as major flaws in foreign policy as being in some way connected with the UK's quaint and arcane traditions is wholly spurious. I stand by that. It is a red herring.
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Jan_Keeskop wrote:
"Does he perform songs that are neither his own nor in the public domain?"
Quote:
"In 2007, Peter had already about 40 songs written down, all available on his website for free."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Nalitch
Now, I didn't quote them because they are in Russian, text matters, so they are hardly appliccable to you :o)
Some rare occasions of his songs are in English - like Overburdened, Lost and Forgotten, the infamous :o))))))) "Gitar" - that made him our internet fame :o)))) - and a few others.
He seems simply liking to sing, whenever there is a melody, that's why what you call "public domain" ones, Italian Tarantella, Santa Lucia, Torne a Sorriento (well, these are in Italian), La Boheme, plus heaps of old Russian romances.
________________________
Official web site of the group (English version), where if you scroll the page down it says "you can down-load audio tracks in mp3 format".
http://www.peternalitch.ru/b/?cat=6
The first one to be listened to there is Lost and Forgotten song (our Eurovision entry)
___________________________
In his site you can also click "video" options. But I think going via Google Nalitch - then the name of the song - the first one that pops out in google - will be the best video occasion record, (as most watched) (different concerts, different variants of one and the same song. done better or worse).
Like Nalitch Tarantella (1:46)
Nalitch Gitar (2:58)
What's good ab him - it's all short :o)))). 1-2 minutes.
He even called his first record "pleasure of simple melodies".
Overall nothing special, we just got so tired of people who can't sing at all, that are pleased to see at least any one able to humm a tune correctly.
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MAII
Re #310
"... you (QOT)... attract attention like horse manure attracts flies."
Have to hand it to You MA: Respect!
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@246 cool_brush_work
"Now, please, I urge You, try to read my comments relating to You & others again: It is quite clear to me that most of my direct crtiticism is aimed at DemocThreat & how You can see it any other way just baffles me!?
If You look carefully, You will see that I have specifically addressed several of the points made by You in Comments directed at You.
Your views like most of us are a mixture: I can say no more, no less. "
I read all your comments addressing me just now.
And I still completely disagree on topic of the invasion of Iraq.
Neither did I believe Ashcroft, Powell or whoever back then, nor did I think that the USA-governments stance on this issue was good for foreign relations.
There were people who warned beforehand that Iraq was an ethnical and religious tinderbox.
It is true that it was just the UN-president who said that the invasion was against the UN-charta. The UN itself could never condemn this act of the USA due to UN Security Council`s makeup.
You are also correct that Afghanistan is not the same, even though I personally think that the decision to go in was under the wrong premise.
Had nobody attacked the world trade center, no single solder would have been sent in to disempower the taliban who violated human rights for years.
I am not someone who demands troops to be removed from there for the sole reason to give the people of Afghanistan a chance to get rid of the taliban.
Well, we probably won`t get to a point where we agree with each other, so we might as well go back on topic.
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Brits
Typical replies, nothing new !
I am waiting CREDENTIALS from you all.
#318 CBW-- aren´t you the retired British officer ?
What do you think about the Jersey and Cossack facts or was Marcus correct when he used the plural Flies ?
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noisy little acorn;
"#310 Marcus
I know, you are the fly !"
And you are the ????
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How anyone can pretend that Britain is a democracy when a single individual Grodon Brown can sign away an entire nation's sovereignty in the Lisbon Treaty by fiat like an absolute monarch without even submitting it to his rubber stamp parliament for consideration is beyond me. I don't think even in the worst days of the USSR Stalin had that power. I'm sure he'd be the last to relinquish Soviet sovereignty to anyone including an advancing Nazi juggernaught army. So on the authority of a single individual, the entire British nation lies down, rolls over for the EU, and plays dead and nobody even marches in protest in the streets. Some democracy.
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#322 MarcusAurellius
I think Nazi methods are becoming apparent from your friends --- and NOT from your enemies !
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A lot of people quoting history on this blog. Some say that a knowledge of history prevents people from repeating past mistakes. Sometimes I feel that it encourages people to repeat them. There are a lot of Generals, of a certain age, fighting their own particular last war here. Maybe the BBC should open up a new blog so people can argue the rights and wrongs of 20th Century foreign policy, but I'm not convinced its going to help us in the 21st.
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Seraphim,
and the little mystery, puzzling Russians, re the name "Lena" of the German Eurovision winner, is sorted. She is daughter of the ex West Germany Ambassador to Russia. He might have simply liked the name.
Guys, I am really sorry :o)))) for Eurovision interruptions into grown up men political club. Esp. that the discussion got winded up so high and energetically. Very un-reconcilable positions club, and so many distinctly differents stands meeting all together. Heavy calibre clash.
I recognise my deficiencies humbly :o)
well, it could have decreased your respective BP-s down. Or raised :o)
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#321 Marcus
The attractant !
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....but having said that (324), a little knowledge of recent history is useful otherwise it makes you look stupid. MAII, check your facts. The Lisbon Treaty was submitted to the British Parliament, but not the British people
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( Mavrelius, re 324, we had all procedures duly minded :o)
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and two Korea-s are nervous.
and Turkey and Israel in a stand-out against now.
volcanoes mis-behave, oil holes rupture.
typical tiger's year
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@ 308 B K W
I totally agree with you. But where shall we find the brains we need so much? The eurocrats certainly could not generate the new ideas, and the time is pressing, isn't it? The party leaders (with a few exceptions maybe) also seem to be unable to meet the challenge...What next?
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Russian blogs discuss that a third power is needed there, or 4th, 5th , 6th - the more the better. And that the UN Security Council should tell off as a must BOTH sides.
Because nothing but "telling off" is in UN power.
Neutral waters - bad. Piracy, simple.
Now I find it more credible, the rumours that Mossad grabatised Russian ship with wood, the mystery ship disappearance in Mediterranean, was it last summer? Apparently we agreed with Israeli somehow peacefully, or they didn't find S-300 among the wood piles :o)))), must have apologised for grabatising it by mistake :o)))), from the high seas. As there were no victims.
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#327 Wonthillian
Did the Queen sign it ?
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#320 well you'll we waiting for a while to hear from me- Yesterday I was fascinated to learn of your assumptions about my intelligence and age ( your #193)but today I don't care so don't trouble yourself to reply.A lot can happen in 24 hours.I've read quite enough of your output to realise that taking CBW's advice (#250)is the wisest course.
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@325 WebAliceInWonderLand
You see Alice, you are not at all alone in you abortive attempt to solve all pressing things at once. I understand your position, at least I try. The prince on the white horse is not there to be in charge of you. Your mum however is present and that is a kind of moral help (mine is still alive at 90!)…
However, I could assure you that the NET could assist all of us to kill the moments of loneliness any time when we really need someone’s presence. I used to experience such unpleasent things when I was abroad on a very, very long mission…
Welcome back darling, I mean on that side of the English channel, and over there, in Russia, among the Smolensk folks.
Obnimayu krepko, krepko. (russ. I embrace you with all the strength I have)
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I'm waiting for the Russian maritime magazine editor, saying something. From Malasia, or where he hides now :o) After he reported the mystery Rus. ship disappearance last year in way too good a detail.
He knows crews and ships and gossip world over, excellently informed man.
(in the recent Somali pirates catch - he was the only one who said at once - when the trumpets were trumpeting "we caught pirates and are bringing them home to Russia for a court case" - that chap said in 30 minutes in a web site - they won't let them go.
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WA;
"I recognise my deficiencies humbly :o)"
So I see. You've gone from :o))))))))))))))))))) to :o)
Now that is what I call a sure sign of new found humility.
Wontthrillya;
" MAII, check your facts. The Lisbon Treaty was submitted to the British Parliament, but not the British people"
I don't know if that is true or not but BBC pointed out on the leading page of its web site that it was not necessary for him to do that. He had the power to sign it into law without consultation had he wanted to exercise that power. That is in itself is more than sufficient to prove that Britain is no democracy.
But even if that was not true, the fact that there is no separation of powers and that he is the head of a majority party whose parliamentary members must conform to his dictates on votes in parliament on all important matters such as this or the government will fall and they will be out of jobs is more proof. Their conformance to his dictates in how they discharge their responsibilities as elected officials representing their constituents in order to keep their jobs is a clear conflict of interest. There is no pretending otherwise, no way to sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist. This type of parliamentary system is clearly a dictatorship of those who run the party in power.
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generalissimo;
"But where shall we find the brains we need so much? The eurocrats certainly could not generate the new ideas"
Perhaps you should listen to HMS Pinafore, specifically the song "When I Was a Lad."
In part it goes;
I grew so rich that I was sent
by a pocketborough into Parliament
I always voted at my party's call
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all
(Chorus;)
No he never thought of thinking for himself at all
I thought so little they rewarded me
By making me the ruler of the Queen's Navy
(Chorus;)
He thought so little they rewarded he
By making him the ruler of the Queen's Navy.
It was true in Queen Victoria's day, it's true now. That's Europe for you.
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#322
"How anyone can pretend that Britain is a democracy when a single individual Grodon Brown can sign away an entire nation's sovereignty in the Lisbon Treaty by fiat like an absolute monarch without even submitting it to his rubber stamp parliament for consideration is beyond me"
Now come on Marcus, thats pathetic trolling even for you.
European Union (Amendment) Act 2008.
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#332
"Did the Queen sign it ?"
Of course she did, the Royal Assent is the final part of the process of enacting any Bill. I'll save you some time and answer the inevitable pointless follow-up - the Queen could withhold Assent but seeing as a) the last time it happened was 1708 and b) it would cause the ending of the monarchy, its not going to happen.
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Dear CBW,
I tried apologizing for the offense given to your nationalistic pride. You seem to have taken that poorly.
It seems a pity that you respond to my posts with such calculated hysteria. I don't know why you do that. It doesn't promote any useful position, it doesn't wash with me, and I suspect the emotional thrill you feel at being british would have been much the same in any case.
I suspect your fear what I have to say, because you have so much of your own character invested in the idea of being the protector and hero of the British state and its institutions. I am deeply suspect about the character folks who cling to their status as a "former military officer", because in my experience they tend to be bullies and bores.
Well, you have attacked me, and have done a good job of it too, except that I am in my thirties and not some geriatric as you suppose. And your casual disrespect for the elderly in you community is well noted. What a fine character you show yourself to be, nuh? Mocking people for being old. My word, the people you must associate with, to feel that this is acceptable public conduct.
Regardless, you failed to engage with the points being discussed, and for me that is weak and cowardly behaviour (in intellectual terms). You savage my personality because that is more fun and much easier than addressing the facts under discussion. It is a cop out, CBW. It is a phony way of discussing issues, and it is the hallmark of the bully. You can't deal with the issues, so you attack the person.
Please, put down your flag and take up the discussion about real issues.
Or, if you can't do that, then I suppose you are at liberty to go around spouting your emotional reactions to the world and waving your flag. But do lay off the old people, CBW. Show some respect for the older generation, and for yourself.
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nonsense offramp;
So are you saying the Queen has the final say? Was she elected by the people? Case closed.
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Jan keesop wrote:
"There have been, and are, English-speaking people who understand this." re the military industrial complex.
Yes, for sure. I don't claim to have invented these concepts, of course I have learned of them from English speaking writers.
My point was rather that "as a people", we have not come to fathom the political economy of imperial war. Our accepted description of our political model, based upon the common law and the westminster system, as "democratic" betrays an ignorance of the fundamental reality of whom the system of representation serves.
Having given this issue a huge amount of thought over the course of my life, I feel compelled to attack the concept of the "noble soldier". I believe, upon careful consideration, that a soldier cannot reasonably be considered "noble", not if we hope to progress towards a sane and humane political economy.
Now one is tempted to make a proviso for Swiss soldiers, because after all they serve a state which is neutral, and which does not engage directly in an imperial war economy. So one might argue that soldiers serving the right form of state should be described as "noble". But I do not, for I suspect the desire to cast any soldier in the role of "hero" is fundamentally an obstacle to human rights reform.
I see that here in Switzerland, just as I see it elsewhere. By way of anecdote, I have an old house in a military town in Switzerland, and last week I was discussing the issue of soldiers with a Swiss colleague, a former grenadier who is now an author, and his associates. The subject for discussion was "what makes a soldier".
Now this author is exceptionally empathetic. He doesn't write action stories, but rather character sketches. He describes people, all manner of people, in the most tender and thoughtful ways. He is doubtless a man of peace. But he also takes considerable pride in his military experience, which is common amongst the Swiss.
He was waxing lyric about the qualities required to be a "warrior", or rather a true practitioner of the "warrior ethic". With emphatic hand gestures, he made the point that in order to be considered a "warrior", a man had to be strong and pure, righteous and disciplined. It was a good speech, and quite long.
I chipped in with the counter view that in order to be a soldier, a man only needed to be willing to kill women and children for 11 dollars a day.
So there was a pause at the table, as the party digested the difference in these views, and soon the women folk changed the subject to more agreeable topics.
But the clash of views on what constitutes a "soldier" is something that one finds everywhere, and it is not easy to explain.
Clearly, soldiers are folks who kill people for money. Always have been, always will be. And furthermore, they follow orders and cannot question those orders. They sign a contract which requires them to kill as they told to kill, when they told to kill, whom they are told to kill. They do not have the right to question the ethical nature of what they do.
Whether this job is necessary in certain circumstances ought not alter the fundamental facts. Soldiers kill folks. That is their profession. They are, regardless of the pomp and splendor of their employer, hired guns. Hired killers of children, if you will.
Can that be noble?
Indeed, is it reasonable to talk of "those who gave the ultimate sacrifice", when we talk of soldiers?
Conscripts to one side, soldiers who choose the profession willingly desire this role. Can such a desire be noble?
The reason I cite this issue is not because I have some deep seated grudge against soldiers. I don't. Member of my own family are professional soldiers, and I have been one myself, and I continue to have many good and close friends who work in the military. But I cannot bring myself to say they "serve" in the military. The implication is that they seek to do some good, that they serve a common good. I don't see that. I see guys who are paying mortgages, and who work to pay their bills. If you offered them more money doing something else, they'd take it. That is the reality.
And when we look at the media description of soldiers, we see a gross, a terrible, distortion of reality.
Note that whensoever a soldier dies in Iraq or Afghanistan, the media report this in detail, lamenting the sadness and waste of human life. There is real pity and sadness in the reporting.
But when civilians die, this is described as some kind of natural disaster, an accident at best. This is despite the fact that in war, civilians always die. It is accidental only by the strangest interpretation of that term, in the same way soldiers being killed in battle is "accidental". Of course soldiers don't intend to get shot, and the commanders don't want them shot, therefore it is an accident when they do.
And when the enemy dies, this is reported as a kind of progress. It is a good thing when "insurgents" and "terrorists" are killed.
Is that sane? Is it noble?
Surely these people are human beings, and surely our desire ought to be to bring such people to the law, to account for their crimes? We ought not rejoice in their destruction, surely? And yet that is how these things are reported, and perhaps that is they way our culture demands that these things be reported.
My point here is that the elevation of "our" soldiers to heros seems to co-incide with the devaluation of "their" soldiers, and indeed their civilians, into non people. Hence I question the correctness of lionizing the soldier, and describing the profession as in any way noble. I feel that to do so is to buy into a mythology that can only end up in one place: more war, more profit for those who profit from war.
Of course I will be derided for these views, and called "naive", and probably a terrorist sympathizer and "enabler".
But we choose the flavour of our naivety, to some extent, and I prefer to be called naive because I do not believe soldiers are noble, rather than being ignorant about who profits from war.
And I do truly believe that, given the right political economy of the state, the profession of the soldier can become a brutal and shocking footnote in human history. I do not believe that people generally want war, and furthermore that if direct democracy existed in place of representation, I believe that people would use their emancipation to prevent wars. All wars. I believe that. I could be wrong, but living in Switzerland and seeing how direct democracy works, I can only report what I see.
The political economy of war and representation creates empires, in the same way as the political economy of war and pure monarchy creates fiefdoms.
It is my own belief that the political economy of war and real democracy creates peace, and neutrality.
The engine of war, which is financial benefit to its suppliers, cannot operate in an environment where the suppliers are a minority voice compared to the legislators, the mass of citizens.
That is what I have seen, so that is what I must believe.
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#339 commonsense_expressway
No, that is not the follow up !
Its not surprising, as all things presented to her will follow the ´Oath of Allegiance ´--- is the follow up !
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#333 Deadlylampshade
Yes, discretion IS the better part of valor.
Maybe the BBC´s children´s blog would be more appropriate for you ?
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DemocThreat
Re #340
You hide behind whatever seasoned expressions/epithets/rationale You care to choose to send my way: "..calculated hysteria.." etc.
I guess You calling 60,000,000+ Human beings "..degenerate.." & "..dregs.." is not 'calculated' or 'hysteria': No, it's far worse than that - - it's pitifully unpleasant and uncalled for - - but then, You knew it and know it now.
As for Your 'age', well, as I recall the posts where You informed us all about Your long experience etc. I just take it all with a pinch of salt.
Being 60+ myself I don't worry too much about any generational gaps in my understanding.
IMO, if You are indeed 30 odd, then You really should be worried far more for Your own attitude; at that age how could You possibly be experienced enough about anything or anyone to condemn entire Peoples out of hand? Your prejudices at 30 toward so many millions are deeply flawed and is not a way to make a success of life.
I know what You wrote, You know what You wrote: It was unacceptable on basic grounds of decency never mind intellectually way, way, way below any previous depth of bigotry You had shown for 'english-speaking peoples'. To add jibes on Israel (and You DID KNOW exactly what You were saying) just left me stunned as to how a fine mind like Yours could lose its way so badly simply to try & make someone '..small'!?
Enough from me to You: I dare say You feel the same.
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DurstTigerMann
Re: #319
Agreed: Differences of opinion are healthy (well on Blogs at any rate) and as our exchange of views reveals proof of anything is all in the History books not yet written, plus these pages would be empty of Comment.
Cheers.
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IM SORRY OAK TREE, QUIET,
I'm not a double crosser type, (i wear trousers, sorry)
You are fine, and it was not a double cross, I was responding to Threnodio about ....something....
to the effect that you can NOT win every argument, so sometimes its better to just leave WELL ENOUGH ALONE
why would I double cross you, I could care less, you may align yourself with Britains, Americans, whomever,
But, this is a public blog where everything written is read by EVERYONE,
have you heard of reassurance, and
why would I want to double cross you, I come here every wkend,
you are fine, just quiet down and express yourself, and I will not bother you or stress you.:)
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Lets see I feel like chattering (self insight here)
Web Alice, there is in the Economist a very balanced article on what is happening in N Korea, 5 powers joining together (Japan, Russia, China, USA, S Korea) discussing the succession problems of ...."Mr. Kim."
So, it is happening--in secret. Yes, Obama IS better than ol ninny Dubya (tho Dubya does sound Russian)...but sure it isn't.
Where is Nik? I told you he would not be here when I am actually quoted ..by various...intellectuals....me quoted...O M G
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CBW,
I'm closer to 40, unfortunately. But you are right, I ought not be prejudiced against all britons.
But with regards to the "dregs" statement, and Israel, this is very far from anti-semitism. The truth is that this is what my jewish friends tell me, and it makes a whole lot of sense.
You see, Israel is a funny place, and not in the "ha ha" kind of way. It is not a modern secular state, as you or I might understand that term, and it has been populated by people from many varied cultures, not all of whom agree on how the state should be run.
I have been told, for example, that during the cold war a very large number of Russian immigrants arrived claiming to be jewish, but who were actually criminals desperate to escape the law in the soviet union with the proceeds of their crimes. Such was the hysteria of the cold war that Israel let these folks in without properly checking their background. As it turned out, they were no more jewish than they were eskimos.
And there is this fundamental problem for Israel: most of the decent and wealthy jews in the world were either butchered by the Nazis or are happily at home in the USA or UK. So who wants to go to Israel?
The religiously driven or those who are not happy in the UK or America. Great.
And that is not bigotry. It is a simple analysis of Israel, and its policies. It is not a fun place to be. Those who can get out do tend to get out, and that has been going on for a long time.
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There is also a story there about gays being hated in Africa, where
they are blaming all their problems on European colonisation,
a place where German excelled, tho the British did do things to Benin,
sorry Britain, learned in "multicultural class in university"
See, QOT, impartial till It becomes a flaw...
But I told them Africans hehe oh wait they are poor...
Oh Well, I said,
POOR AFRICA SO CLOSE TO EUROPE,
SO FAR FROM GOD,
did you know they have "trolls" there, too. An African guy who sounds very know it all, tellling all to mind their business, if Africans kill Gays ..welll its ok because they
are addicted to Aid monies from abroad and therefore are righteous in doing so--btw, this attitude comes from America neo cons relocating to Africa
POOOOOR AFRICA, AMERICAN NEO CONS IN YOUR COUNTRY ...WHAT A MISERY
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This is degenerating into a bar room brawl. A free for all. No need to watch an old western movie when I have this.
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You should not pity us.
For we also - wouldn't pity - any one!
We, in front of our ComBat - as in front of God Almighty - are clean.
On the live ones - got orange, from blood, overcoats.
On the graves of the dead - blue flowers blossomed out.
Blossomed out - and fell. Fourth autumn is passing.
Our mothers are crying. Same-age girls - are quietly sad.
My generation does not know love. Knows no profession.
Our fortune lot happened - bitter truth of soldat.
....
Well. And who won't be back? Who will not have the chance, to love it up for, later?
Who in the fourty-one, fell, to the first bullet?
My age girl will sob. Mother will beat up out on the treshhold.
My generation - knows - neither verse. nor - peace. nor - wives.
Who will come back - will love up? No. There isn't big enough heart for it.
And the fallen - don't need it, that the live would love, on their behalf
...
You should not pity us. For, we also - wouldn't pity any one.
Who had been to attack, who was sharing the last bread piece
Will understand this soldier truth.
....
Let the live ones remember. And let generations know
This, taken with battle, rough truth of soldat
And your crutch, and the deadly wound throughout
And graves over Volga, where thousands youths lie.
This is our fortune. It's with her - we were swearing and singing
Raised up in attack, and blasted bridges over Bug
You should not pity us. For we also - wouldn't pity any one.
We, in front of our Russia - in hard time - are clean.
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#320. At 3:18pm on 31 May 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"Brits
Typical replies, nothing new !
I am waiting CREDENTIALS from you all.
#318 CBW-- aren´t you the retired British officer ?
What do you think about the Jersey and Cossack facts or was Marcus correct when he used the plural Flies ?"
So far I have yet to see which country you have your origins from, although that may be pleural as many now have multiple family origins. This makes me consider the high possibility that your own genetic origins have a lot to be unhappy about, pot, kettle, black seems to be highly probable about you. Lets here your true credentials for once as at least with people like MAII we know his origins and his ability to cast stones whilst his adopted country has much to be ashamed of, just as almost every country in the world has it's not so secret embarrassments. History and especially Family History are very revealing I can assure you.
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marcus, what do make of israel?
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Buzzard;
"Lets here your true credentials for once as at least with people like MAII we know his origins and his ability to cast stones whilst his adopted country has much to be ashamed of, just as almost every country in the world has it's not so secret embarrassments. History and especially Family History are very revealing I can assure you."
I was born in the Bronx in New York City. My parents were born in New York City. My grandparent came from several countries in Europe and as far as I am concerned it could hardly matter less which ones they were because I have no fondness or attachment to any of them. I couldn't care less what becomes of them any more than I care what becomes of any other countries besides my own. I have no idea what you mean by adopted. Unlike people who migrate to become citizens of countries other than the one they were born in, I have not now nor ever had any such inclination. As for being ashamed, I think what country you were born is in nothing to be ashamed or proud of. I merely feel lucky that I didn't have to emigrate here like my grandparents and so many other tens or hundreds of millions of others did and still do. Capiche?
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dt;
"marcus, what do make of israel?"
As this is a blog about Europe, I'd say that if Europe had as many Jews now as it once did, it might be in considerably better financial shape. Many of them seem to be very good at economics, finance, and banking. While most of the world is in dire financial straits, Israel's economy seems to be thriving. They must be doing something right.
All this goes to demonstrate again what I have pointed out many times, whatever other assets a nation has, its most valuable asset by far is human capital. Those nations which penalize some or much of it, ignore it, supress it, kill it off or drive it away put themselves at a serious disadvantage. Who knows, Europe might not be in this fix if it had more clever people who would not have allowed events to flow the way they did. People frequently seem to me on the whole to deserve much of what life hands them.
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#355 marcusAurellius
I´ll drink to that !
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#355 MarcusAurellius
I keep my promises !
Presently toasting you with a 20 year old Rum from Costa Rica.
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Yes, generalissimo, I am back.
I like it when you call me darling :o) But it's not why I returned to the cold :o))) (generalissimo is a true knight and followed me there over to Smolesnk blog, and called me darling there as well :o)
Too many Poles! :o))))) for me in 1 month. Joking. Seriously. You can't so much, at once!
Seriously, I was intrigued by the Poles; what they breathe with, and all. And my curiosity in that regard is not satisfied yet.
But, still, Russians-Polish, Russians-Polish, Russians-Polish - it gets kind of limiting, in terms of conversations run.
I like Mig and SU pilots there, their reality stories from the past, and various engineers, funny un-understandable charts :o)))) and schemes :o))))) (cute pictures) (in beautifully done multi-coloured lines :o) they place, though.
The side blog "international pavillion-chatter" they started (moderators filtering to the side the un-related airplane crash discussions) - has way too many girls! :o)))))) for my taste
Anyway.
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#354 Democracythreat
Here we go again, did you have to stick a needle in him ?
This can go on for weeks now !
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WA;
"Seriously, I was intrigued by the Poles; what they breathe with, and all. And my curiosity in that regard is not satisfied yet."
The usual equipment is nostrils, trachia, bronchial tubes. and lungs. If you find out that they have invented some new secret, please do let us all know right away. I'm sure there are scientists who would take the first flight over there to study them (:-O)
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#253 Democracythreat
I should remind you that everything you have said about Britain and the British people , also applies to you , every European country , The EU .
With reference to those who survived WWI and WWII , the latter including you and me ; the peoples of all of Europe , in your book , are the Dregs of society . France hasn't recovered from the French revolution .
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#312 QuietOakTree
YES , THIS IS ANTI BRITSH !
The " Facts " that you have given , should be enlarged and qualified with circumstances .
Did you know that the people of Jersey are Anglo/French . Prior to WWII , quite a small community . During WWII Jersey was occupied by the Nazi Germany .
With regard to the Cossacks , I don't know which war you are refering to .
Your reference refers to Churchill , so one may presume WWII . The British army did not serve on the eastern front , in the war between Germany and the USSR . I have read that there were some units of Cossack who served with the Nazi/German army , but in general the Cossacks were not involved , other than giving food and hospitality to the Nazi/German soldiers . It is true that the Cossacks fought against the Bolsheviks in the Russian civil war and remained anti the communist regime .
Many Russian prisoners and deserters served with the Nazi/German army during WWII . Hitler could not accept that Russians " Hiwis " were serving in his army , so they were classified as Cossacks . I believe I am correct that the allied agreement was that prisoners of war and surrendered troops be handed over to their country of origin .
For your enlightenment on the terrible things that happen in war ; I suggest you might enjoy reading Antony Beevor's excellent history
" Stalingrad ".
I am not convined that your reading and research is accurate !
Hendon is a popular area of North London , where many businessmen and finacial experts live .
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#312 QuietOakTree
These Blogs are for people to comment on the current subject and perhaps to suggest a way of resolving the problem .
You champion the ordinary man in the street ; but apart from running down what is his country too , you offer no ideas or a solution to his or her situation .
This Blog is about Barosso , President of the EU Commission . British people are not the only ones to criticise the EU or Barosso .
You should interest yourself in the subject matter ; see if you can suggest a solution to the problems of the Euro and the EU . Like getting rid of both . Perhaps you have a better idea ?
Making Snide remarks about other contributors to the Blog and trying to criminalize their country does not contribute to the debate .
Perhaps you resided in Hendon , when you lived in Britain .
I am beginning to think that you are enjoying a little drink , or two , when you respond to these blogs !
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#344
I didn't know there was one but not a bad idea, the level of "debate" is probably higher.
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quietoaktree wrote:
"#354 Democracythreat
Here we go again, did you have to stick a needle in him ?
This can go on for weeks now !"
Absolutely not. I'm actually genuinely interested in Marcus's views, from time to time, and especially regarding Israel.
Just because the mob here bray and buck at his baiting them, and just because he doesn't like Europe and has a nasty streak of nationalistic pride, that doesn't make Marcus stupid.
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#355. At 10:58pm on 31 May 2010, MarcusAureliusII,
I was merely pointing out that you have never been reticent to let us know both where you were born, where your ancestors came from and where you have lived, unlike certain contributors here who like to cast stones but keep their origins a secret. The lack of known reason for which makes me very suspicious and wonder if they are those people who harbour obscure grudges for perceived things that happened generations ago. The current situation in Belgium between Flanders, Brussels and Wallonie is very much in this fold, and there are many other examples to be found throughout the world.
You are right to not care too much about your origins whilst being aware of the migration your ancestors did, and within the EU there are many examples of migration over the centuries and the Anglos and Saxons are a good example of that. Should the Anglo-Saxons of today give a hoot that they originated from North Germany or what the reasons were for that major migration, or what the Ancient Britains (Celts) felt about being displaced to Scotland, Wales and Ireland, or what the Saxons felt about being ruled by Normans? What's in the past should stay in the past and it's a pity that so many contributions here keep raking over issues that should have been forgotten/forgiven generations ago.
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#367 Buzet23:
You are right. Most of the past should stay in the past.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
BBC MODERATORS
Re #369
Look, get on with it.
You & I know You don't want to publish it.
It's okay for another contributor to write that Britons & Jews are "..dregs.." and "..degenerate..", oh but woe betide anyone wanting to reply opposing such slanders!
Face it: Just as an irish man can write & have published stuff about a child murderer, so, I couldn't reply & have posted a suggestion causing offence to millions by mentioning Soham was allowed by the BBC and offending an irish man was not allowed by the BBC.
HYPOCRITE THY NAME IS BBC MODERATION!
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More on the subject:
1 euro = US$1.21
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#371. At 11:52am on 01 Jun 2010, powermeerkat,
More important that the euro-dollar rate is that the pound sterling rate is showing as 1 pound = 1.1808 euro, it just shows how bad the eurozone currently is when even the pound is able to gain against it.
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@337 MA
"I grew so rich that I was sent
by a pocketborough into Parliament
I always voted at my party's call
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all..."
True, it smells of socialism...That is what my wife has been singing to me ever since our wedding day (I am still a party member)
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# 363 and #364 Huaimek
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/jersey/4203719.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5069500.stm
My honor would require me to apologize.
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cbw, I am outraged by the censorship you suffer.
We are all british today.
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#370 Cool_brush_work
Rule number one.
Keep your COOL under enemy fire.
Rule number two.
Copying Marcus will get you nowhere.
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#375 Democracythreat
You do not know what you what he wrote.
Freedom of speech has its limits.
If one sees a contribution has been put on ice, then re-phrase and send again !
Rather than complaining for hours ---or isn´t that logical ?
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I shall your advice under consideration, quiet oak tree.
And the next time I set about the task of eating an apple, or perhaps tying a shoelace, I'll be sure to look around for you to guide me on that adventure also.
I've long been a believer that if a fellow is short of opinions, or can't seem to find one when it matters, then he ought to get married.
The same can apply for some folks on this blog. If a fellow is entirely stupid and needs the most fundamental concepts spoon fed to him by those who have recently mastered them, this blog is certainly the place he should come. We have a wealth of the blindingly obvious being paraded around as high theory, and those who lack the rudiments of thinking tackle can't help but be improved by the company they shall find here.
Why, just the other day I was so impressed to hear Marcus professing the ability to reason from A to B, by way of considering differences between the state of A and B, to see whether they were the same, that I had to go and sit down, and be still for a while.
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#374
QOT
Your arrogance forces you to demand an apology from Huiamek, your honour is non-existant.
As usual your desperate attempts to prove that the British are guilty of something, anything, leads you to draw weak conclusions from scant evidence. Delve deeper into Yalta and its consequences and show me what Britain did that was different from the US, find me an occupied country that didnt hand over some Jews to the Nazis and I'll concede that Britain is uniquely culpable. But you wont be able to. Take a look at Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia if you want to find real villains.
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#377
QOT
Theres a British expression. Its called "taking the piss" and I think you're seeing an example of it from d-t at #375
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#379 commomsense_ expressway
I believe Hauimek is old enough to make his own decisions ?
There is an American expression-- Don´t try to sell me wooden nickels !
Are you defending CBW or DT or both ?
OK I accept you are attacking me in a rather ´slimy´ way for the BBC information I was requested to provide !
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#374 QuietOakTree
There are a number of sourses of information on the internet , regarding the repatriation of Cossacks by the British and US forces at the end of WWII . I suggest you look them up and see for yourself ; not just the difficulties both British and US troops had to brutaly force them to go .
Cossacks were also implemented in the Holocaust . Cossacks escaped into the mountains of northern Italy ; turned all the families out of their homes , to occupy them themselves . There were some units of Cossacks who served with the Nazi Waffen SS . Cossacks chose to offer there services to Germany to fight against communism , which they had never accepted . I repeat , Hitler could not accept that Russians taken prisoner or changing sides were serving in the German army ; so they too , were all classified as Cossack .
At Yalta , it was agreed between Roosevelt , Churchill and Stalin , that all prisoners of war be returned to their country of origin . it is possible that Roosevelt and Churchill were rather naive ; they knew what a dreadful scoundrel Stalin was and feared that British and American troops might not be returned . Stalin , for all his villainy , had sacrificed millions of Russian/Soviet lives , in a far worse war on the eastern front , which saved western Europe from a prolonged war and possible defeat on the western front .
At the end of a 5 year bloody war , you cannot just let thousands of enemy prisoners of war stay where they want to stay and not return to their natve country . You are equating the rules and sentiments of war in 1945 to those of 2010 , with todays courts of human rights and illegal immigrants spreading into countries where they are not wanted .
I suggest that your only interest in digging up such events from history and quoting them on this forum , is to Damn Britain in every way you can . You hide your identity and nationality , so that nobody can understand or question your reasoning for such hatred of Britain .
You have mentioned in a comment that you like to drink . I suggest that your flippant little gibes at fellow commenters , and lack of costructive input is because you are past being able to type .
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@ 359 WA
You are welcome. The Poles were really very nice and comprehensive. I still wonder if there is at least one Pole here to chat with.
As to the Smolensk blog, I think many of our fellow bloggers here would go there if they were in good command of Russian. Unfortunately, even in Eastern Europe the English definitely won the language battle, much to the disappointment of the French.
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#382 Hauimek
I keep my Identity, Nationality and country of residence secret for various reasons and you have again proved this decision to be correct.
It is true that I made two comments pertaining to alcohol ´I´ll drink to that ´ and a continuation of that I kept my promise and drank a 20 year old Rum. If I mentioned a Singha beer or Macon no doubt your remark would have been similar ?
The disconnect between ´credentials ´and intellect is often more apparent when Nationalism raises its ugly head. Britain has a further complication of ´Snobbery ´ which occasionally surfaces.
Some contributors feel free to spout their Nationalistic, `Democratic´ and social prejudices against other countries, systems and peoples without attempting to analyze their own. As ALL the links I have posted originated in Britain itself, an accusation of intellectual Nationalistic simple-mindedness appears fair.
We have little evidence how other societies and their citizens would have reacted under the Nazi Jackboot. I forget if it was the King of Holland or Denmark who wore the Star of David, however the reaction of Jersey is known.
I did not refer to the Cossacks who committed War Crimes but to their women and children. When details of the atrocity appeared on the BBC, the excuse was given that Churchill was afraid the British POW´s freed by the Soviets would not be returned to Britain unless the ALL the Cossacks were handed over to Stalin. That excuse MAY be true.
I have attempted to be fair with you and look beyond your ´Credentials´, unfortunately you yourself are unable to.
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Re #384
For all it's worth...
A plot of one of the more recent James Bond movies ["Golden Eye"] prominently features another 00 agent, who turns against The Crown, because he is a Cossacks' son [which MI6 somehow did not discover during his vetting process] who decides to avenge his parents "betrayed by the British".
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#384 QuietOakTree
You are wrong to believe as the ultimate truth , what you see and hear on a BBC programme . The BBC adjusts and colours history to create dramatic effect . I suggest you read several other historical sourses , before you accept as gospel truth the BBC account .
What were Cossack women and children doing , as " Camp Followers " in 20th century warfare ?!!! No place for them at all !!!
For anybody who experienced WWII , even as a child in Britain , away from the fighting , it was a terrible affair , no holds barred , attrocities were committed on all sides .
How about the USA in the Vietnam war !!!
You have NO Right to come on these Blogs , for the sole purpose of expressing ANTI BRITISH VENOM ; without clearly proving just cause .
If you have "Skeletons in your Cupboard " you should keep quiet , stick to the subject of the Blog , lest little by little you give yourself away .
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