Hungary's woes favour far-right
It is one of the scripts of European history. A weak and corrupt government. Widespread unemployment. A shrinking economy. Crime. A political party emerges. It offers certainty. Solutions. A cleansing. Crime to be "eradicated". Scapegoats identified.
So with the rise of Jobbik in Hungary. In Sunday's elections the party came a strong third, winning almost 17% of the vote. Its popularity has been built on railing against what it calls "gypsy crime". The Roma, who make up between 6-7% of the population, are cast as thieves who top up their thieving with benefits.
As a party they draw on the language and images of the past.
They are linked to the Hungarian Guard, whose uniforms are reminiscent of a wartime pro-Nazi group.
They deny they are anti-Semitic and yet they speak of "foreign speculators" who control the country - a group that includes Israel. Supporters refer to Budapest as "Jewdapest".
In this climate a local rabbi says bumper stickers have appeared with the slogan "Jew-free car".
Hungary's largest Jewish organisation said Sunday's vote was "the first occasion that a movement pursuing openly anti-Semitic policies had taken a step to power since the Nazi era".
All of this is against a background in which politicians are held in low regard. Lies were told about the economy. In 2008 Hungary needed a bail-out from the International Monetary Fund. Last year the economy shrunk by 6.3%. Unemployment is more than 11% and in the areas where Jobbik scored well it is even higher.
Paul Tannis, a sociologist, says the "party has played on the country's sense of wounded pride to make Roma and Jews the scapegoats for everything that has gone wrong".
Across Europe there are concerns about identity, about changing societies. It is a climate in which far-right or anti-immigrant groups can do well.
The National Front in France put up a robust showing in recent elections. Geert Wilders's Freedom Party could do well in the forthcoming Dutch elections.
What has not happened in Europe is a breakthrough for these parties.
They reflect anxiety, disaffection, and alienation from mainstream society. In calling for a national debate on identity French President Nicolas Sarkozy recognised the potency of this mood and it thrives on the economic downturn.
And history, however long buried, lurks beneath the surface. In the current tension between Germany and Greece over a potential bail-out, a senior Greek politician quickly pointed out that Germany still owed money for what it had done during the war. The Germans were furious. Some suggested, whether frivolously or not, that they might buy a few islands if the Greeks were desperate for money.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~54~RS~)
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Bad economic times always lead to finding scapegoats, another consequence of the bankers greatest theft in history. They didn't just steal everyones money, they removed the underpinnings of many societies and the hope that millions no longer have. The idea that the world is currently run by a corporate/banking state is an easy sell these days. People get angry when they are betrayed by their governments and they seek alternatives when they see niether change nor justice. The governments become more responsive to the needs of the people or these things will continue to arise. It is all in history and each new group in power believes that it will not happen to them, and each ends up recognizing that it does. The Roma don't own banks but it does no good to seek justice with the banks.
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Mr Hewitt wrote:
'It is one of the scripts of European history. A weak and corrupt government. Widespread unemployment. A shrinking economy. Crime'.
Looks like we've got a lot in common with Hungary.
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The reason why Geert Wilders his party is rising in popularity in the Netherlands is quite simple; people are fed up. His party is the only one who are willing to speak up and point out the truth.
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In hard times Europe reasserts its true nature, antisemitic, antiroma, xenophobic, a cesspool of false national pride, ethnic hatred, and intense jealousies. All of the laws and treaties in the world can't change what is in people's hearts. And the hearts of Europeans are by and large as black as they ever were. This alone is reason enough that no matter what the economic numbers of any moment say, Europe will never catch up to America, will never be the kind of place America is, and will forever live in its delusions. The outside world isn't waiting for Europe to come to sanity. It moves on relentlessly indifferent to a failed civilization in rapid decline. There may be temporary financial bailouts and technical recoveries from economic downturns but there is not recovery from the attitudes that have existed in Europe and shaped Europeans for millenia. These attitudes are not shaped in Brussels or Strassbourg but in each individual home, village, community, school. These are the way Europeans are taught from childhood, attitued they will carry with them all of their lives and hand down to their own children and grandchildren. That is why there will never be a Martin luther King or a Barack Obama in a European country. Their cultures will not allow it.
The flaw is inherent in the way European societies are structured, they are based on shared histories, shared connections to land, shared cultures. Outsiders may be ignored, their presence even tolerated to a degree but they are never fully integrated. Not after a generation, not after dozens of generations where they have lived peacefully yet are the objects of exclusion. America by contrast is based on a structure of shared values. This is one sharp contrast which explains why the inclusion of Americans especially starting with the second generation, those who are born in America comes naturally and without question. This eternal ethnic, racial, religious bugaboo that perpetually plagues Europe is fading quickly in the US. By 2042 the caucausian population will be a minority in the US. Few Americans are at all concerned. In our system that simply doesn't matter.
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He who speaks ill of Hungary's corruption has obviously never visited ot tried to do business in Bulgaria. Or Greece.
And he who speaks ill of Hugarians' racism has obviouslsy never been to Romania and never witnessed how they tread Roma folk there.
[Not that they treat them much better in Italy, or Slovakia.]
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Well, people get sick and tired of being preyed upon by their government. They get sick and tired of being poor, watching their wages drop, watching their taxes rise. They get angry, they get tired. And then they start doing things all angry, tired folks generally do.
What Gavin is documenting here is the ritual of fascism. He calls it a "script" of European life. And that is correct.
I have been saying for a while now that fascism cannibalizes itself, and this is reading from the same script Gavin is referring to. When you have a government that allows one sector of the population to farm its people like animals, they do so. And so you get higher and higher taxes, and lower and lower wages. Then you get hate politics.
Today I had the dubious experience of advising a UK firm on a taxation matter. I was asked to examine a transaction and decided whether certain deductions were legitimate. Now they were, but it was a hugely informative case, in political and economic terms.
In the UK, two companies involved in the construction of, say, a wall need to report to 6 government employees just in the tax department alone.
This is because they need to report the transaction on their income tax return, then again on their VAT return, and then once more on their CIS (construction industry scheme) tax form. So each firm is reporting the same transaction to three separate government employees, which makes six government employees dealing with each transaction. And not only that, but each of these companies if collecting tax from the other, upon behalf of the state. That work is unpaid.
Now think about that situation for a moment. It isn't rational.
If the government do not trust the companies to pay taxes directly to the government, then how can they trust them to collect taxes from each other? And if they can trust these firms, why no collect tax directly from each?
And even if the whole system of policing is designed to stop fraud and cheating, why involve six government employees within the various taxation departments for EVERY TRANSACTION?
The only rational explanation for this insane system is that government has been setting up taxation regimes as a means of providing jobs for its own party members. I have seen this process at work, and it is pure corruption. The party goes to universities and recruits members to its cause. When those recruits graduate, those who can't get jobs in the private sector end up being given jobs in government, if their party is in power. The government creates jobs for these recruits by creating new departments to police new laws, and new taxation regimes.
That is how the two party system works. Curiously, it is also how the one party soviet system worked.
And it is how fascism works. You have these entities called "parties", or "departments" when you have a one party system. These entities prey upon the rest of society, feeding on them like parasites, sucking the productive wealth from the economy.
That is why fascism and communism fail: they fail economically. The eat away at their own societies until they have made slaves of every non party member. And when they fail economically, they fail socially. Then, when there is nothing left to tax in taxation, and wages can;t be lowered any further, they declare the non party members sub human.
That is the script, and it all starts with the party.
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A feeble analysis.
The author fails to examine the problems arising from the misrule of the political class and its corruption. He makes the people the problem. Corruption, globalization and the global labour as commodity are causing real problems for europeans. What does the author do? Lament on how the masses aren't as enlightened as they think they should be.
If the author had less cultural prejudice and took less interest in shielding the political class this article would read much differently.
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Ohh realy what a surprise? They take away from people all social support and structures so that the IMF and the markets are happy then turn around say look at those nasty Hungerians they are all racists remeniscent of the past! Then add Greeks, Spanish, Italians, Portugese as lazy club med people! and sit back and watch where we are heading for!
The facts are simple, people want to work, they want to have an ok live, unfortunatelly the politicians can't see that and they can only see as far as their economic advisors let them see. Their economic advisors have only one thing in mind and that is how to collect more money from the people through bank loans backed by the government.
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I hope all our main stream politicians are proud of themselves.
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Marcus: There is no racism in the good old U.S. of A.
DT: People wouldn't vote like this if the EU hadn't destroyed democracy.
EUPrisoner: I want MY REFERENDUM!
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I think that would be fair to say, that the Jobbik's main pledge is the "accountability", with other words getting to justice for those who are responsible for the bad economic situation in Hungary. Many of these people have controls on the media, and that explains the overhelming "nazi" and "fascist" labels they try to stick on the Jobbik.
The Jobbik is not racist. It "deserved" this label for pointing out the very serious problems within the Roma population, problems what out of "political correctness" could not been discussed openly, and problems, what were turned to the advantages to the socialist gouvernement.
I do find very sad that the BBC representing the outgoing and unpopular socialist government's view on this new party what gained 17% in a very negative, main parties-controlled media environment.
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Jobbik strong third, almost 17% of the vote.
Jobbik denies it is anti-Semitic but speaks of "foreign speculators" who control the country. Are they right to point fingers at Israel, or at least the Jews.
I don’t say this from an anti-semitic viewpoint, but from an external, third-party viewpoint:
What are people to believe when they see the United States' complete, unquestioned support of Israel, including military weapons and overlooking the lack of an Israelis signature on the NPT?
What are people to think when they see Palestinians evicted from their homes, and Palestinian children sitting in Israelis jails?
What are they to think when the United Nations keeps passing resolutions that the Americans veto?
Are they not likely to think that Israel and the United States are joined at the hip. Are they not to think that the United States permits Jewish interests rather than American interests to decide questions of foreign policy.
In all probability Geert Wildeers's Freedom Party will do well in the Dutch elections.
You are right in your assumption that this far-right shift reflects anxiety and alienation from mainstream, but I would push the statement one BIG step further and ask: Does this far-right shift reflect sufficient anxiety and alienation to make far-right shift mainstream?
The people of Hungary evicted the Socialists after eight years, handing the majority vote to centre-right Fidesz Party (Viktor Orban).
The Socialist government, led by Gordon Bajnai since April 2009, is likely being punished for making painful budget cuts as Hungary tried desperately to repay the IMF.
Fidesz won 206 of the 386 parliamentary seats in Sunday's election. The second round of voting April 25th will without doubt see votes rise for both Jobbik and Fidesz.
The right-wing extremists of the Jobbik party (and their militant followers from the New Hungarian Guard) have been engaging in unabashed mistreatment of homosexuals, Roma and Jews. They are campaigning for the restoration of Greater Hungary by demanding the union of all the provinces of Romania, Slovakia, the Ukraine and Serbia (countries in which Hungarian ethnic minorities live).
The incoming prime minister, Viktor Orban, and his Fidesz party support this type of nationalist populism. How far right Europe has swung! When Jörg Haider's Freedom Party joined the government in Austria there was uproar throughout Europe. The Hungarian Fidesz party is even more right-wing than Haider's and appears to be slipping into power so easily.
Then of course, there is France where the daughter of French far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen has said she hopes to take over the party he founded.
Ms Le Pen, 41, is a member of the European parliament and regional councilor. Her father produced a shocking result in the 2002 presidential elections when he came second (first round). Ultimately he lost in a run-off with Jacques Chirac.
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Sounds like the UK
Taxi for Brown!
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Even in good times, xenophobia is not very far below the surface in Europe. I have travelled thru Western Europe a fair bit in the last couple of decades and with the exception of England, I have always found an undercurrent of hostility directed towards me, a person of Indian origin.
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CA;
"Ohh realy what a surprise? They take away from people all social support and structures so that the IMF and the markets are happy then turn around say look at those nasty Hungerians they are all racists remeniscent of the past!"
How about all of the money that was taken away from British, German, Dutch, and other taxpayers and sent to Hungary to build roads and bridges? What happens when the shoe is on the other foot. I don't hear them complaining about that. So much for an integrated multicultural Europe and an ethnically tolerant EU. The first thing you have to do to change something is to admit that it is what it really is. That is what Europe refuses to do, that is what it has always refused to do and always will. That is why it is forever stuck being the way it is. I saw it nearly 40 years ago. For those who say Europe has changed since then I say no it hasn't, not in ways that matter. Europe is not worthy of whatever attention or favors the US gives it. It is even ungrateful and resentful of that. We have a saying in America, no kind deed goes unpunished. Helping Europe rebuild from the ravages of WWII and protecting it from invasion by the USSR was an expensive mistake Americans should learn from. Let Europe solve its own problems if they can be solved by such people at all.
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... so the issue here is:
Why do official political parties in Hungary accuse the Jewish, the Roma? We said already that it is to accuse a third group of all the bad things happening around. But it is not only that.
The big issue is not so much to accuse the Jewish or the Roma. The issue is to hinder Hungarians searching the real root-causes of their demise and prohibit them taking measures correcting them.
The right wing open idiotic discussions about the jewish, the roma and I do not know who else cannalising the anger of Hungarians to all wrong roads, then the left-wing come as jewish/roma saviours to accuse the right wing ones as racists, fascists, nazis and so on, the discussion will continue on pointless directions while the real problems remain unsolved.
That is nothing new, it is a staple of politics.
Wait, you will see much more of that in future.
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Re8: Exactly ChrisArta!
funny thing is that people in reality ask much much less than what politicians claim them to ask so that they can pretend they cannot give and thus give much much less...
get the pattern?
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Wow, some of the replies here are becoming so incredibly predictable. Marcus and democracythreat especially. Marcus, we've all seen and heard the 'TEA-party'-followers. You can fool yourself, but I'm not blind to US society either. The only reason the US doesn't have a similar party, is that it's in a two-party stranglehold.
democracythreat, the 'it's all because of socialism' is getting kind of tired. We haven't had a proper socialist government in Europe in ages to begin with. Hell, the EU even has the market-economy enshrined in its principles. Equating fascism and communism is rather ridicilous as well, not really the same thing, even if that is what you would love to believe.
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Sorry, but the Germans only have themselves for the wars they started that caused so much pain.
My family & household is one of many millions (actually, scores of millions) around the world that has never recovered from what Kaiser Wilhelm started -- putting all those intensive lessons from von Bismarck to such good use -- all the way back in 1914.
So when the Germans start throwing their financial weight around in a smug way at the descendants of those whose lives they ruined, they won't get a lot of sympathy from my corner.
The decent thing to do, given the enormous amount of effort Germany put into creating both the EU & the eurozone -- the decent thing to do, given the great powers that first divided Germany stood by and applauded with feeling when the Vereinigten Vaterland was miraculously restored, without any price tag (the USSR, for one, might easily have imposed such) -- is to stand by the promises made when the EU was first being promoted, rubbing no salt into anyone's wounds, and not smirking behind the scenes or making dumb jokes about "less-than-Germans."
For example, after all the damage German militarism had done, would it have been unreasonable of the Allies to throw a few nukes at the ashes of Berlin, once they had the weapons? But that would have been un-Christian. And the eminently Christian Allies (even the temporarily post-Christian Soviets) did no such thing. Instead, they rebuilt the nation and institutions of the people who had derided them as inferior, launched the biggest mechanised mass exterminations of humans ever attempted, and days after the end of the war were treating all but the uppermost chiefs of the Third Reich much more kindly than those same people would have treated them, had the ambitions of German militarists won the day.
So don't insult your friends & colleagues if you don't want them to remind you of the crimes your grandparents & parents committed.
As for the situation in Hungary, it is a telling indicator of how much more dangerous & devastating the global financial crisis has been for probably significant majorities of most populations.
In times of enormous stress, the most primitive arguments emerge, and find a ready audience.
Just have a look at the American Tea Party movement. More people in positions of authority need to start getting alarmed. People like Joe Lieberman need to stop jawing on, and preferably retire. The number of human beings currently operating on a very short fuse -- a fuse shorter than the shoestring of their income -- is indeed higher than it has ever been since the last unfortunate huge war.
Heaven forbid it should ever come to such extremes again. But in that case, more of the people insulated by wealth need to be thinking up better ways to get more money circulating again, where it is most needed, to relieve this pressure.
And yes, it is high time to really make an effort to help the Roma community. This is a long-suffering group with many afflictions, but also enormous resilience, and a positive contribution to make.
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On the subject of anti-semitism, it is extremely unfortunate that Israel and Iran are being treated so differently in the corporate and state media of the west. It is even worse that Israel is so aggressive and brutal in its foreign policy. It certainly creates the overall impression that Jews have undue influence and that they do not use it for legitimate purposes.
My own position is that jews are mere pawns in a much larger game, and that they simply don't matter next to the scale of evil done by WASPS and catholics. I know several jews personally, and none of them are cruel or nasty people.
Having said that, I am skeptical of any religious group, and I am deeply critical of the absurd notion that jews are a "race". The idea that you can convert to a race is ridiculous in the extreme, and makes a mockery of the fundamental objection to racism: It is unfair to blame a person for something they cannot decide for themselves.
By that principle, it is fair to criticize someone for being a member of the White Wolves in Russia, or for being a member of the secret police force in Brazil, or for being a member of the communist party in Belarus. Or indeed for being a catholic priest.
All these distinctions are matters of choice, and it is proper and rational to hold people accountable for belonging to these groups.
And that is also the case with jews. Judaism is a choice. People are not born jews, no matter how crazy their parents are. Every adult can chose whether or not to be a jew. However a person cannot choose whether or not to be dark skinned, or oriental, or blue eyed. Or tall or short, or any other genetic trait. You can convert away from a belief, but not a genetic trait.
And so I am slightly disturbed by UK law, which examined this issue and found that jews are in fact a race, and therefore deserve legal protections designed for races. The house of lords reasoned that there is really no such thing as a definable race, and therefore why not make jews a race too?
It is not one of the better examples of judicial intelligence, and it derails rational discussions of the issue of judaism.
I certainly think a lot of people are anti-Semitic because they feel they are not at liberty to speak of jews as they speak about any other religious group. And that makes sense. Indeed, it is legitimate. No religious group is above criticism, and if one is held to be so then such legal privileges ought to be removed. If they are not........ well don't be surprised if people start hating that elite group!
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Long time ago, there was an economist who saw all this coming. He also had an solution.
"The scholars who understand it hesitate to speak out boldly for fear people will not understand. The people, who understand it quite easily, also fear to speak out while they wait for the scholars to speak out first. The difference between our present situation and that of the story is that it is not the emperor but the people who are periodically made to go naked and hungry and insecure and discontented - a ready prey to less timid organizers of discontent for the destruction of the civilization."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_finance
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Leo_Naphta, your own contributions are reasonably predictable as well.
You make a personal attack or two, imply your inherent superiority, and then say nothing pertinent to any particular issue.
Now you and Margaret Howard are entitled to this style of discourse, but it does raise the question of why you bother.
Is it that you do not understand or care for any particular political position well enough to advocate for it, or is it rather that you feel that your role in society is to let everybody know your feelings, so that they can adjust their behaviour accordingly?
I can understand if you feel that your feelings are very important and need to be expressed. I had a cat like that once. It would always howl and carry on when it was hungry, or when it was bored, and even when it was excited. Never said much politically, but it certainly let everyone know how it felt about a given situation.
I advocate for direct democracy and against party based rule because I believe in the style of government, and I detest the misery and poverty caused by professional politicians. That advocacy gets repetitive, for sure, but then again so does the mainstream reporting of the BBC.
And as for people who turn up to post about how they feel about other people....... if you read one of those vacuous comments then you've read them all really.
"I'm not happy with person XXX." or "I'm happy with person YYY."
Great. Big deal. Thanks for sharing the state of your emotional condition at this time. The problems of the world just got a little easier to solve because now we know your emotional position at this time.
What is the deal with people who go around declaring how they feel all the time? Do they think it matters, or that other people care?
I'm so happy. Now I'm sad. Now I'm happy again. Hey everyone, I feel sad.
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Pre-emptive counter attack:
I have never heard anti-semitic remarks from UKIP members or voters.
I have heard some very nasty anti-semitic, anti-black, anti-foreigner remarks from BNP supporters.
I vote UKIP.
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Things have the potential to get intense in Hungary when you factor in the legacy, pain, hatred and sense of loss caused by the post WWI Treaty of Trianon when Hungary was carved up and neutered. It's the cauldron where all these aggressive & nationalistic spasms get stirred in.
To blame the jews is absurd - most of them were killed in WWII and only a fraction remain today. As for the Roma, they are so marginalized, their influence stops at street cleaning and living in third world conditions.
This is plain old fashioned & ugly nationalism where past glories, former kings and famous battles are used as weapons to fight imagined foes. Having seen these rallies first hand, it's a scary sight and always saddens me to think that a country should walk down this road after all the horrors of the 1940s. I'm keeping an eye on this one - Hungary's northern neighbour, Slovakia, under the current administration is spoiling for a fight. These right wing parties may just take things over the edge...
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In his comments to the Hungarian election Diego Lopez Garrido, the minister for Europe in Spain, mentioned populists, xenophobes, radical nationalists and anti-Europeans as forces behind the new support for the radical right in Hungary.
He undoubtedly pointed at similarities between right wing radical groups all over in Europe and elsewhere. An authoritarian personality seems also to be a common characteristic of the people in this environment, but so far no one has been able to make a consistent analysis of, why the radical right is getting more support, since an explanation in one country is always met with a counterexample from another country.
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I'm a Hungarian living outside the historical Hungary. I think that after the Trianon, none of the descends of the actors of that treaty has right to judge over the situation in Hungary. My nation have lost the two third of its territory thanks to the French and English politicians, who wanted to destroy it as a powerful country. My nation went through many sufferings in the last century. Until yesterday it was a shame or a guilty in Hungary to be Hungarian: an old flag from the Arpad-era was marked as "Nazi". When you wanted to defend the dignity of your culture you were called anti-semitic, and when you wanted to stop the criminal committed by the Gypsies, and which were to be accepted as a part of the tolerance during the decade of the Gypsies. You never heard about the brutal acts of this minority, since this was filtrated in the international news. The West was rich enough to get rid of this problem, so you are giving some subsidies and condemn us as radicals.
Some of the comment-writers told about the subsidies. Well, someday Hungary had 18 sugar factories, now there are only two of them. People are fed up with the 'European dream' where you must behave as it would do an English, French or a German. There is no real respect toward our culture, and our way of life. People, especially the young ones, would like to be truly Hungarians again. This means no hatred against anyone, but my people were so long oppressed, and treated, that we want to be ourselves again. Not pale clones of Englishmen or others. It is probably hard for you to understand the situation, because our way of thinking is totally different from British clichés. So, Mr. Hewitt, please show a little more respect toward us!
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#4
Just do a search on either "racism in America" or "anti-semitism in America" and then come back and lecture us.
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Talking about Hungary...lets see what the BNP and UKIP get...
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Territorial loss is not exceptional and not unusual. Finland, Poland, Germany, Romania and Serbia are countries that have lost territory in the last 100 years for different reasons. That does not entitle any society to revert to racism or nacionalism without criticism from the outside.
But the idignaction about the Hungarian election is nothing but affectation and hypocrisy. Why should the Hungarians not be allowed to vote for whoever they want to vote for? In Belarus, you have got the last remaining dictatorship in Europe. It is an utter disgrace and in this day and age, it is only possible, because Lukashenko is Putin's little gimp. So nobody is indignant about that. Russia is run by ex-KGB goons who shamelessly order the odious Russian army to invade a sovereign nation, which is a member of the UN. The Netherlands has been a breeding ground for Islamophobes and right-wing extremists for at least ten years now. The fact that Austria has right-wing extremists in its government has long since stopped raising any eyebrows anywhere. And in east Germany, there are still regions where it is not safe for non-whites to go to.
I am sorry, but I cannot think of a single European nation that is so impeccable that anyone should feel entitled to cast the first stone.
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re: 23. At 6:46pm on 13 Apr 2010, Maria Ashot
Young Germans alive today did not commit the crimes to which you refer. I don't see why they should pay for them. If we find out that one of your ancestors committed a murder then I wouldn't want to see you hang for it.
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Re: 29. At 8:09pm on 13 Apr 2010, Mathiasen
You do not have to be right wing to be anti-"EU"*. But frequently the only party which offers you an anti-"EU" option is right wing. In the UK UKIP has policies with which I disagree but I will vote for it because it is anti-"EU". I could not vote BNP. I would prefer it if UKIP had very few other policies apart from wanting to get us out of the "EU".
There is more to it than this, but this is part of it.
The "EU" is still not Europe.
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@31
Yes, there is always hot air blowing from MAII's direction. Perhaps you could describe it as a cyber foehn - similar to the weather phenomenon that causes migraines, general malaise, etc when encountered.
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PJohnston #7 - quite a sensible comment. Many thanks.
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democracythreat @ 24
"I certainly think a lot of people are anti-Semitic because they feel they are not at liberty to speak of jews as they speak about any other religious group."
and not "anti-semitic" only but anti-anyone-seen different-else.
It may be interesting for you as a lawyer that in the RF, for example, don't know how it is in other countries, there is a Criminal Codex article, 282 if I'm not wrong, that gives 4 to 8 years of prizon FOR SPEAKING IN A DENIGRADING MANNER AND WITH AN INTENTION TO ASSAULT of any other "group" :o)))
Honestly, "a group of people", united by "religious, racial, beliefs, PROFESSION" etc there is a long list, listing on which basis people can become "a group".
Policemen :o))))), for example. Honest.
The lay-out with that Article is such that there was a suggestion brought by a political party to the Duma to abolish this Article, take it away. Duma /Parliament declined last week.
We have lots of media attention to it because to this day there are 40 prizoners and with "suspended service" convicted for this offence. Which is a mad offence. Because it is not that you ? hit someone. or physically hurt someone
For that there are other Articles, in the "Criminal offence"/Criminal Codex category.
it's sticks and stones can't break my bones but words etc. what is it? forgot. This kind of approach.
And ABSOLUTELY ALL "CRIMINALS" convicted for it are ethnic Russians. :o)))))) All the 40.
Not for offending police feelings :o))), as "a group" :o))))), yet :o)))) - one is being tried for that, honest! now! he offended police "as a group" in a blog!!!!!
But for offending Caucasians' feelings, so to say. No Jewish cases.
Now, what absolutely all say - why Russians are convicted?
Simple. Because when "Caucasians" swear at us, in the street, publicly - nobody drags anyone to the police!
We don't understand a thing :o))))) of what they say! :o))))
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Maria Ashot, what in heaven's name are you on?
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It's lucky most Russian Russians don't know their laws :o)))
Not the most popular read, how to say, the Criminal Codex :o)))), for the night.
Because the only thing you want to do when you get to know about such a law - is offend, offend and offend! :o)))))
If we are not yet in prizon the whole 140 million combined :o)))) is only because many don't know they can't offend others in speech by law, and as to the rest, how to say. "The strictness of Russian Law is out-balanced by the un-obliging status :o)))) of these laws application" :o)))
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29. At 8:09pm on 13 Apr 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
"In his comments to the Hungarian election Diego Lopez Garrido, ..."
I did a search about this bloke. I couldn't get one of the results to load. It suggested that he had said we needed Turkey in the "EU". Some years ago, another Spanish minister was reported as saying that we needed Turkey in and after Turkey we needed to get other North African countries in. He definitely mentioned Morocco but also, I think, Tunisia and Algeria.
Given the way the "EU" has ignored the people inside its borders over the Lisbon Treaty, it is not surprising that people will seek a more aggressive approach. The "EU" has treated politeness and decency as a sign of weakness and as an invitation to further despicable arrogance.
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32. At 9:39pm on 13 Apr 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"Talking about Hungary...lets see what the BNP and UKIP get..."
EUpris: They won't get a lot because of the unfair British voting system. I suggest we need the transferable vote system, not the continental list system.
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29. At 8:09pm on 13 Apr 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
"In his comments to the Hungarian election Diego Lopez Garrido,"
EUpris: Mathiasen, please could you tell me where you found his comments?
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39. At 9:59pm on 13 Apr 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"Maria Ashot, what in heaven's name are you on?"
Why? Do you want some?
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LOL, tea-party this and tea-party that. It is a common position of the liberal to squash the opinion of others. Who cares that 17% of that country has a different opinion, is that opinion a threat to you? Every political environment has varying levels of extremism. Is a 'good' cause worthy to start vandalism, riots, destruction, extremism, and perhaps death? Funny, how it is okay to squash the opinions of a far right and yet a far left is somehow seen as 'acceptable'.
Frankly, a society is made of the sum of the whole, not just the tasty parts you feel are acceptable to you.
Maria Ashot: Though I feel for your families experiences through life, the real tragedy in this would be allowing one view to crush another view for the sake of what is perceived as 'good'. Give society some credit to over come and balance out left with right and leave us with a path in the middle for the betterment of all.
Believe there was a quote in history somewhere along the lines of 'how are you to know extremism without having a viable example'. This goes for both sides, left or right.
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#43. At 10:21pm on 13 Apr 2010, EUprisoner209456731
It was published today in the Danish newspaper “Information”, which is something between the German TAZ and the French Le Monde. The title of the article was (in my translation): Armbands and boots are drawing votes in Eastern Europe.
I don’t suppose you read Danish, but if you really want to see the source, the information you have now will be sufficient to find it. The central words are transparent, which means you will be able to recognize them even if they are written in Danish.
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Euprisoner
No I don't. Also, no need for this comment since you aptly put her in her place and thus know what I meant.
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Thank you for this article, it has really nothing to do with the elections! It is about antisemitism and racism, the most popular topics in the world. This is what Hungarians are fed up with- talking about the Jews and gypsies (this is their actual name, not Roma), and not about the majority.
You might not know it, but Budapest has the _biggest_ synagogue in Europe. You might not know it, but we have a law which prevents you to question the Holocaust. You might also have not heard that we have been giving home and bread (literally!) to many-many ethnc minorities for the last thousand years. You might not know it, but if you are a gypsy you and have n+1 children, you get so much wages that you don't have to work in all your life. And if, as a gypsy, you don't get your money, you are free to go and complain loudly in the street and course "those ***** Hungarians, who do not work, and so we don't get our money." You might not have any information about the jails which are 98% stuffed with gypsyes... Oh, I forgot to mention that we don't have any problems with any other ethnic minorities!
What the Jobbik offers is solution. It says that we have to recognise and point out the problem: the problem with the gypsyes (social problems) so that we can solve it. Political Correctness prevents you recognising the problem. Same goes for economy. We eat Spanish tomatoes even though we have the best soil in Europe... Jobbik stands up for the traditional Hungarian values. It wants to rebuild our image- for ourselves.
It is true that Jobbik is a far-right Party which insists on finding and punishing those who are responsible for Hungary's economic, social and moral crisis. The left has been gooverning for eight years so noone can blame anything on the right. The responsibility is theirs- and not the people's!
Oh, I forgot to mention- I have never seen any Jew-free stickers! I live in Budapest. :)
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"It is an utter disgrace and in this day and age, it is only possible, because Lukashenko is Putin's little gimp.
Russia is run by ex-KGB goons who shamelessly order the odious Russian army to invade a sovereign nation, which is a member of the UN."
Chris Camp, I like it that you are here.
You are convenient, representing Turkey-Britain-Germany combined :o)))
Now, as very few close to nil nasty people were previously observed in this blog from Germany, Turkey and Britain - I could never say :o)))) what I wanted sometimes :o)))) about either place.
I will keep you in stock, in case, if you don't mind. Marinated.
I trust you will always provide me with an elegant excuse :o)))) to start being nasty.
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This article focused on a few issues regarding the rise of Jobbik, some of the issues are very much relevant. It is true that during adverse economic climate, people tend to be more likely to be receptive to more extreme views. That is a constant, which tends to hold in human culture. There are however other issues that made Jobbik come to the fore for which the article did not account for, because of a short sighted author. Jobbik really found its voice when, in neighbouring Slovakia, an equally or even more radical party, which is currently in government has succesfully pushed for the criminalizing of the Hungarian language with its 2009 language law (Hungarians make up 10% of Slovakia's population). While the mainstream Hungarian politicians were waiting for a poorly functioning EU to come to the rescue and speak up against such a barbaric law clearly aimed against ethnic minorities living in Slovakia, Jobbik worked at the grass roots level to oppose the law. They became the defenders of oppressed Hungarians across the borders (there are more than 2.5 million of them thanks to Trianon treaty). This could have been a role that the EU could have taken, and the results of the Hungarian election could have been very different. I personally foresaw that Jobbik would do well as soon as it became obvious that the EU had no intent of protecting the Hungarians living in Slovakia. Now I further foresee that if the EU politicians do not wake up and realize some of their past mistakes, they will wake up one day realizing that they made the greatest mistake of all. They expanded into teritory that was not culturally ready to be part of the EU family. It will cost them dearly.
PS: The problem of the Roma people, and their lack of willingness to integrate into mainstream society is a drag for those countries where they are living. It is a high cost for some countries that cannot aford it. Jobbik may not have realistic answers for this problem, but if the problem is not dealt with in a realistic manner that will produce results, groups like Jobbik may become more and more popular in the region. As far as financial predators ruining smaller and sometimes bigger countries, it is a fact of life. That is not an anti semetic statement. Speculators come from all backgrounds, and they are dangerous.
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EuroBerry
"I don’t say this from an anti-semitic viewpoint"
Yes you do!
Listen all you Euro-Trash, you may google it, you may hunt it down, you may put it under a microscope but racism and antisemitism are rare in America and are fading fast. There's no future in it here. By 2042 the white population will be a minority. Nobody is concerned about it. America overwhelmingly supports Israel because we share its core values, not Europe's. Europe has no credibility with Israeli Jews because it has a history of persecution of Jews that goes back over 1000 years. Europe has no credibility in America because it just plain stinks. Add to its other crimes betrayal, about the worst crime imaginable in American culture and you have a relationship that is for all practical purposes non existant. We will go our way and Europe will go its own way by itself, that is to say down.
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MarcusAureliusII, I understand your desire of being a "patriot" (or whatever other name is fashionable for national chauvinism these days. But it looks as though the "love" for the U.S. is completely out of touch with reality. There is still plenty of racism the U.S., and it is far from being "rare", as you say. The recent "tea parties" are a testament to that sad fact.
Here's a little reminder of how widespread racism sadly continues to be in the United States, a country which otherwise I admire very much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_US
As for US support for Israel - I often fear that I am going to be the last person on the planet supporting Israel one day. The reason the US supporting Israel is for strategic reasons and once America has a stable second leg in the middle east, say, in a pacified Iraq, much of the strategic value Israel has for the US will be gone. The purported "shared values" will then be forgotten by Americans like yourself as quickly as they were dreamed up in the first place.
Your tireless reiteration of the mantra "Europe" is going down is clearly a result of wishful thinking. Europe, at this point, is much better off economically than the US.
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Marcus,
Have yourself yet another glass of Jack Daniels before you retire for the night!
May I remind you that your Russian poetess - Web Alice , is also European and has indicated in the past that her country could possibly join the EU someday?
:)
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Go Jobbik, restore Hungary, well done Fidesz
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I am not a racist, but the outrage that Roma have the more right in this country, like the Hungarians! And unfortunately, they abuse with this. In the meantime laugh at us, even for no reason abuse innocent bystanders on the street. Fearful to go to a street, where the Roma live in. A man in his country fear to the minority, who do not like to work (there are exceptions, of course). This is the problem. This coupled with a lying government, and we surprised that the right side push forward?
(Sorry if it is difficult to understand text, translated by Google)
A Hungarian man ...
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democracythreat,
You haven't payed much attention to any of contributions I made to this blog, have you? Don't worry, I know you haven't. It's actually quite easy to check them if you feel like it, just click my username. (The only real 'attacks' are against Marcus, really, but can you blame the response they elecit? It's what he's craving for anyway, I'm just indulging him) My contributions stay on this level because very few people here actually feel like entering a real discussion. It's stating their personal opinions. Socialism is not necessarily party-based and in theory is what direct democracy would look like. If you take into account that direct democracy autmatically implies direct control over the means of production. Of course, you're not all that interested in the actual theoretical base of the theory, but more in the image that you've created of it in your mind. Here's a tip, try reading some of the work of Emile Vandervelde. Not very original theoretical wise, but a very good summary of what I believe socialism is about. The market as understood in the current (neo)-liberal structure is the anti-thesis of direct democracy. Just look at Thatcher's failed attempts at inducing the 'shareholder democracy'. Despite all her articifical inflation of the shareholder numbers, the direct control of small shareholders decreased dramatically under her government, while she did manage to sell off any public say in key sectors. Job well done!
Furthermore, it's hard to comment in any meaningful fashion on anything Gavin writes at the moment. He's obviously busy furthering the BBC 'curry the favor' agenda, for when Cameron is swept into office. Bang on job! Only, it would be far more informative if he stopped talking in useless terms of Berlin says this, or Brussels says that ... and actually identified the power-structures he's talking about and the actual people that are involved in it. For example, if Merkel states a case, it's not Berlin or Germany that's saying it as such, but the CDU & associates that are formulating their vision (and knowing anything about Merkel, it's quite clear that the FDP have a say in that).
It's not a question of 'I'm happy with X or Y' but more a question of X is to be situated in this social, political and economical network and the interests and electorates X represent are Z and Omega.
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Marcus Aurelius:
No offence, but I think you have failed to do your homework. Please google topics such as "Antisemitism in America" or "Racism in America", as you have been wisely advised before. Then come back to us and share what you have learnt and support your thoughts with quotations from reliable sources.
Then maybe you could do a little research on American economy as well. It might slightly modify your opinion about the US as an "emerging culture". Besides, the official language of the US is of an Indo-European origin, its constitution is a modified translation of the "Déclaration des droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen" which I fear is also European, so I do not understand why you consider the US as a unique culture that is completely uncontaminated by our European "decadence".
As far as the outcome of the Hungarian elections is concerned, I am utterly shocked. I would like to enlighten all my compatriots who have expressed their thoughts in relation to Mr Hewitt's article, that Jobbik is undoubtedly a racist party, and all decently thinking people should distance themselves from them. They are doing harm to our country and our reputation.
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Oh, good ol' Trianon gets mentioned; great Hungary was dismantled. Let's put some things straight: Great Hungary included whole Croatia where there were 10 times more Italians than Hungarians. Now it is absolutely true Hungary lost more territory than it should have: what's now in North Backa in Vojvodina, some parts of West Romania (Partium), South East Slovakia all still have Hungarian majorities. Transylvania is a special case; there are millions of Hungarians living there. But even in 1918 there were more Romanians than Hungarians. Hungarians should ask themselves why they did their utmost to destroy the old Austrian Empire: people would have had no problem living as citizens with equal rights. But they were (and some are still) convinced they are a superior race and the result was Hungary was made to pay maybe more than it should have. Unfortunately, lessons are still not learned ...
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Sorry, I must correct myself, the Constitution was another way round, but nonetheless it was influenced by great European thinkers.
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#59
sadly, i agree. they still have not learned. and that is why they need to take care of themselves first before taking care of others.
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Mariana Trench;
"Please google topics such as "Antisemitism in America" or "Racism in America", as you have been wisely advised before. Then come back to us and share what you have learnt and support your thoughts with quotations from reliable sources."
I don't need to do research on google or anywhere else to know what America is about. I've lived most of my long life here. All but two years of it. I see it every day. I've traveled over much of it. Living and experiencing it IS my research. Sorry to disappoint you, you are wrong. It may have been the way you imagine it 40 and 50 years ago but not anymore.
"It might slightly modify your opinion about the US as an "emerging culture"."
It is not emerging, it is evolving and at a very rapid rate. Even I never imagined America was ready for an African American President just three years ago but here we are for better or worse.
"Besides, the official language of the US is of an Indo-European origin,"
America doesn't have an official language...or an official religion. Over 200 languages are spoken in the United States.
"its constitution is a modified translation of the "Déclaration des droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen" which I fear is also European,"
Whatever you think or fear, the fact is that the Constitution of the United States of America is entirely original. Nothing like it and no government anything like it ever existed before it did. I don't think there's another quite like it even more than 200 years after it was written and adopted.
"so I do not understand why you consider the US as a unique culture that is completely uncontaminated by our European "decadence"."
I don't know what you mean by uncontaminated. The original Europeans who first came to America started their transformation from the moment they stepped off the boat. Suddenly class, status, theoretical knowledge, whatever rank they held in the old world went out the window. Americans evolved as a practical people because that was the only way to survive in this wilderness. Those who were cleverest at it became the leaders. You really don't appear to know much about America at all but that doesn't surprise me. Most people not from America don't either. At best most know something about our current pop culture, it could hardly be more superficial. But even those foreigners who study America seriously rarely understand much about it. It does not fit any other paradigm. Sir Christopher Meyers who was the UK's ambassador to the US for over 5 years revealed in a BBC interview that he certainly didn't.
American civilization evolved far beyond Europe's culture a long time ago. Those who come from other countries with their "baggage" had best leave it at the doorstep before entering. If they don't, they will find themslves very unhappy here and often if they try some of the things they get away with routinely at home over here, they could run into serious trouble with our laws which can be most unforgiving. Ignorance of them is no acceptable defense.
"As far as the outcome of the Hungarian elections is concerned, I am utterly shocked."
I'm not. It's what I expect. Not just in Hungary either. What is happenig there seems typical of what is happening all over Europe. It's what always happened in Europe. It is one of the very most important reasons America was invented...as a place to escape it.
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Recently BBC reported on discrimination against Hungarians in Slovakia. I guess they figure if they have to take it elsewhere, they should dish it out themselves at home. It hardly matters which European country you go to. Somebody always seems to be discriminating against someone else. Turks in Germany, North Africans in France, Africans and Latin Americans in Spain. Pakistanis and Jamaicans in the UK. Romanians in Norther Ireland. Italy has the reputation for being the most racist country in Europe. What an advantage to compete against a civilization that throws away a sizeable portion of its population just becuase it sees them as outsiders.
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C'mon, Ghery and EU PRIZ
Since, I have previously made a case that people who dislike Maria Ashots views often have a disdainful view of women's opinions....I SHOULD again point out that she is good in her writing.
Where we make little posts that position ourselves and point out how we feel, maybe some people are aghast that M. Ashot can write a whole paper on issues and come off literary and very well written.
Prejudice against strong women is not ..I repeat ...not a good healthy sign. And it is not a thing to be congratulated for.
Read my lips....IT'S NOT GOOD...
Jealousy is not a greatly needed emotion to display either.
Mr. Manners,
David
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I am tired that many times I wanted to comment and BBC stopped me. I do not know, why they do not stop you Marcus? What ever you write is hurting me as a European. You are commenting on every way that
Europeans are this and that. Howe do you know??????????????
You just told here, you lived all your life in america but 2 years. Go and try anywhere else. I am sad, that they let your comment go as you proudly say that by 2042 there will be no Caucasians. Sad. Sad for you and many others. Sad for Hungarians too. So I try again.
So, once we will be in visible minority, are we going to have some privileges as some have in Canada or other countries?
So, did you know, that in Hungary the government is giving FREE housing to gypsies.
My parents had to work very hard to build their own house and put food on the table. They did not get anything from the government.
Oh, and BBC, Jobbik in not the one who won the election. It was the Fidesz.
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The articles in the U.S. Constitution were based on a misreading of how the House of Commons, the House of Lords and the Monarchy were functioning in England, inasmuch as the Legislative and Executive branches were concerned. The drafters were quite concerned that any branch would concentrate too much power - the Long Parliament associated with Oliver Cromwell; and what was seen as the dictatorial power of George III. They also mistrusted the common people who could develop irrational enthusiasms: therefore dividing the Senate into three classes, each serving six years. Further, the Senators were to be elected by the various state legislatures. This document in large part comes from the UK and UK philosophers. See Alexis De Tocqueville's 19th century analysis.
IMO the greatest export of Hungary to the US is in the entertainment field: certain composers (Sigmund Romberg, e.g.) and beautiful women (the Gabor sisters).
MA, sadly some irrational anti-Jewish sentiment still exists here; it is, however, not socially acceptable to most.
The US's support of Israel is based partly on guilt that we could not stop the NAZI attempt to murder all European Jews before 6 million deaths had occurred; partly because of shared democratic values; partly because in the US, Jewish communities are concentrated in the larger cities, in important electoral states. Do not call it "antisemitism". Arabs are semites.
Palestine did not exist as a separate state (nor did TransJordan, nor Iraq) before the breakup of the Turkish empire during WW I. Realistically, no peace can be negotiated between Israel and the west bank parties until the arabs as a community accept Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. Attempts by the outside to facilitate peace talks will be doomed until someone figures out a way to clone Jerusalem, so that both arabs and Jews have complete possession of their own capital. Science fiction, perhaps. The other arab nations have no interest in accepting and resettling their palestinian arab cousins; they support them enough to keep the pot boiling.
As far as "far right" parties in Hungary, E. Germany and other locations are concerned, desparation causes people to vote for a "savior" who persuades them that he/she has the answers. Sadly, the answers may involve attacking some of your neighbors who are in some way "different".
People without jobs or food are quite susceptible, a/c desparation, to this type of lure, regardless of skin color or continent. We've seen massacres of Watusi in Africa, attacks by tribal groups in other continents as well. In the US, massacres of native Americans occured sporadically well into the 19th century. We too are guilty.
TeaPot562
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"Listen all you Euro-Trash, you may google it, you may hunt it down, you may put it under a microscope but racism and antisemitism are rare in America and are fading fast. There's no future in it here. By 2042 the white population will be a minority. Nobody is concerned about "
You know Marcus, this is your sad day. What ever you are and your kind is the Trash. It is sad for you. You not going to enjoy life as you know it now. European culture, music, art, education etc. is what America build on you smarty. Why are you here than? Could not archive anything in your own country and came over? or what? what are you trying to prove? that you are superior? People from third world countries coming over to seek a better life. and look at history. look at education. do not be blind. you need white people. or actually, you needed white people. now you despite them. what a double standard. sad.
Hungary. Hope this country will finally learn the lesson. but 40 years of Communism and plus 8 more years of confusion is not going to help.
To bad that after the Communism was overturned, the country did not stop the communist Party. they should not be allowed to form and run at all. Just like during communism, only one party was allowed. too late. Also globalization is not exactly helping these small countries. This works for Marcus and his America only. Marcus, get your backpack out and travel a bit. But not for one week. Try to make a leaving in other places and get your head out of the send. Places like Romania, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Spain, Russia etc. Get the contrast. Get to know the people, the history. You be a better person.
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It is of course not my concern if anybody wants to go into a discussion with the gentleman from the USA (?) calling himself MarcusAurelius.
He posts a tsunami of contributions in many cases with subjective and idiosyncratic viewpoints like "there is racism in Europe, but in USA we have never had such things", and contrary to the hundreds of Americans I have been discussing within the last ten years not least about the social division of their society, which is reflected in the music culture, I seldom see any reason to go into any exchange.
If he really is an American, I can recommend him that he takes a good look at Duke Ellington or Miles Davis or other prominent black Americans in jazz, not to mention the history of Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King and gets updated about his own country.
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#4 MarcusAuraliusII
It is never quite clear to me why you hate Europe and All things European So Much ?
You make comparisons with the US , as if the United States of America is Utopia , Paradise , Heaven on Earth .
My first wife was American of an old Boston family , father and mother both Harvard graduates and father a Harvard professor . I have spent a lot of happy times in the US , my children have dual nationality , two sons live in the US .
I have never particularly like the US ; it is not a country that I would choose to live in . The USA for all its No.1 status is in fact to a surprising extent a 3rd world country . About 5% of the population is REALLY educated , it is a crude country , with lack of refinement and culture ; money is God and any sort of dirty business may be employed to attain it . That said I have many very dear American friends . To me the national parks are the best part of the US .
When I lived in the US , for a while , I used to say that for all the wealth in the US , Europe was a casket of Jewells .
I say was , because the Europe of today is being completely ruined by the EU .
Your posts express a considerable understanding of the problems with the EU and perhaps you rightly have vision of the beginning of the EU downward spiral .
What happened to you in Europe to make you pour forth so much vitriol ?
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#64 MarcusAuraliusII
You are wrong , the original Immigrants to America , like those on the Mayflower did not start there transformation the moment they arrived .
They brought with them their European culture , puritanism , arts and crafts . They built houses like those back home in Europe . those of superior status took charge of those less able , helping to create a community from the start . Others migrated slightly later bringing some wealth with them . A whole district of Boston is named after one of my family forebears .
The people you describe are 20th century immigrants , who were quickly introduced to the new US way of life . Even so , many of the immigrants to the US have brought their own culture ; most major cities have an Italian , Greek , Hungarian , Chinese , you name it quatre , which have contributed to the culture of the US today .
I have met Italian farming immigrants who came in their youth ; who made their own bread , grew grapes in their back garden and made excellent wine .
Many of the most brilliant people in America came as immigrants from Europe and still do . There is comparatively little indiginous American culture ; what culture there is comes from European countries or Africa .
If you think American civilization evolved far beyond Europe's , Dream On , you have been watching too many Hollywood Movies .
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Considering the scale of economic and social problems in the UK, how come the tories won't get a majority on the scale of FIDESZ? Did Orban rely upon the political naievety of most Hungarians (could Overdose, the Hungarian super-racehorse, have been elected with a similar poster campaign?)or is Cameron even less appealing to the electorate?
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66. At 04:42am on 14 Apr 2010, David wrote:
"C'mon, Ghery and EU PRIZ
Since, I have previously made a case that people who dislike Maria Ashots views often have a disdainful view of women's opinions "
EUpris: David! Please produce some sort of evidence that I criticised her because she is a woman. I have not criticised her posts in general because I have not read one of them before. I have not criticised her because she is a woman. I criticised the content.
Going by what you said, I would automatically disqualified from EVER criticising something by woman.
I repeat: Please produce some sort of evidence to support the idea that I criticised her because she is a woman!
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66. At 04:42am on 14 Apr 2010, David wrote:
" ....
Jealousy is not a greatly needed emotion to display either."
EUpris: So where do you get the jealousy thing from?
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'73. At 09:08am on 14 Apr 2010, chiswick76 wrote:
Considering the scale of economic and social problems in the UK, how come the Tories won't get a majority on the scale of FIDESZ? Did Orban rely upon the political naivety of most Hungarians (could Overdose, the Hungarian super-racehorse, have been elected with a similar poster campaign?)or is Cameron even less appealing to the electorate?'
I had a conversation with an Austrian friend the other day, along the following lines. (Bear in mind that Austrians are not renowned for having left-wing or pro-EU views)
Her: "I really can’t see how you British could possibly vote for David Cameron, He seems so extreme."
Me: "Well, actually, within the Conservative party he's seen as a moderate and a moderniser."
Her: "You're joking! The rest of the conservative party must be really right-wing."
Me: "Some will say that, but others will say they're not sufficiently extreme on Europe, and will vote for UKIP instead."
Her. "So UKIP are the real extremists then"
Me. "Well, not really, you see there's this other group called the BNP….."
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Oh cmon David - gimme a break. What does one thing have to do with the other? In the end, it is you who gives a kind of women (apparently the strong one, not the weak), special privileges by finding the need to protect her. I couldn't care less if she's a woman, a man or a bear. Internet names don't really say much anyway. So spare us the preaching. Our (EUpris & my) points had nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman. In fact, I think I should ask you the same question as I did ask her:
"what are you on?"
(and no, EUpris, I don't want any)
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54. At 11:56pm on 13 Apr 2010, Islandhopper1 wrote:
" ...
May I remind you that your Russian poetess - Web Alice , is also European and has indicated in the past that her country could possibly join the EU someday?"
EUpris: Yet another reason to run out of the "EU" screaming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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47. At 10:47pm on 13 Apr 2010, Mathiasen
EUpris: Thank you! I used to read a Scandinavian language a long time go. I will give it a go later.
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Suddenly class, status, theoretical knowledge, whatever rank they held in the old world went out the window...
Who said this? Marcus of course! About what? About settlers in America.
It is a joke of course. Class remained there. But simply due to the large new spaces and such where people could move on taking as much land as they wanted from the natives, class was not that important in these terms. However in terms of leadership there is no question that the class system continued.
It is not accidental that most US presidents and high ranking politician derived from ancient higher social classes. I remember Bill the saxophonist being 50th cousin of Jonh Major (both deriving from medieval aristocratic families). This is plain amazing.
US is not a civilisation on its own. It is part of Anglosaxon culture, or can be seen as an off-shoot of it. Even Anglosaxon culture is questionable if it is a civilisation on its own right in the same way French and Germans cannot claim so. Civilisation is a culture that surpassed its own strict territorial grounds and became staple for a much larger part of the world. Such were the Egyptian, the Greek, the Persian, the Indian and the Chinese cultures - they are civilisations. In Europe among the other countries than Greece only Russia and Italy could substantiate such a claim. The bulk of the rest of countries are bunched up together as "western civilisation" and that is a fact accepted by all writers. Few would speak of German, French, English civilisation as separate notions. However, that does not mean that their contribution is belittled or something - in fact the bunch of these cultures had been the fastest evolving cultures in the known human history. And the reason they did so was that they were a bunch of many cultures and several 100s of millions of people - combined with the expansion of printing, it resulted in modern technological advances.
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EU prize,
now, be reasonable :o))))).
Where can you run? Look over your shoulder. Right; water.
Wet water :o))))), all over :o))))). Atlantic.
You can't retreat, you can only advance. There is only one way open for you on land, and where it leads to? Right. Siberia :o))))))
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Well, if you will ask very much, we might build you a subway (we are good in subways), so that you can go under Europe straight, not going out at stations :o))))))
If that's morally easier for you :o))))))
London-Urals kind of, big leg.
Seriously, there is an absolutely mad project discussed in Russia now, about worlwide road, kind of a highway, 300 metres wide strip.
We are good at road building :o))))), you know :o))))))) skip in dreams the intermediate stages :o)))))) (as hopeless :o)))), aim at once for the round-about globe highway :o))))))
What's with other's places we haven't figured out yet :o)))), but found a good empty stripe, at about along our 55 parallel.
In fact :o))), no lack of un-built potential thoroughfares here :o)))), from left to right.
It's been calculated we'd need 2 more nuclear power stations along, only to heat the road, for we want a 12-month a year road operational, and other other interesting highlights, in the project.
The opposition to it says let's go for a speed train thouroughfare instead, because railroads are mastered by us, and traditionally proved the only timely and functioning arteries of the Federation, they carry everyone and everything here, work well.
While with bahnhofs :o)))) we are traditionally un-lucky :o))))
A mental block, a bug must be, some place, in the Russian brains.
We don't know how to build roads, only railroads we can.
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Because all this uniting, it's a total crap, while it's airplanes with Putin flying to visit Tusc or a handful of others flying to visit a handful of others.
The rest is being dragged by ships around.
You don't start with visa-s or politics.
You need a damn functional road, infrustructure, kind of, beginning.
A real span, where all can invest, and all can move along.
Something that can be touched.
And visa-s and agreements and defining who is democracy :o))) and what is it :o)))) - that will fall in place after somehow.
If there is something to carry, and those willing to travel, we will agree somehow. anyhow.
Favourite Russian word "Avos'" :o) / somehow God willing :o)))
kind of local "perhaps"
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Mavrelius, don't worry, you are inclosed as well :o)
What, some lousy 30km strait, not a problem for an English-cnannel-2.
Though many say trains are still hugely far more economical. With hop-over wagons, for cars, like on sea-ferry - ies.
But then a road is far more flexible, you do what you want and when you want.
Auto companies will love us :o).
Un-employment won't be a problem :o). For many a country, like our Southern neighbours. See Kirgiz have absolutely nothing to do but arrange revolutions. Etc.
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The danger with these parties is that they play on popular perception and carefully mix truth with lies.
I will doubtless get crucified for this but I was recently in Bolonga (Italy) and in 2 days Roma had two goes at pickpocketing me. The locals there complained violently about the influx of Roma (from Hungary & Romania incidentally) who target tourists in summer then go home again in winter. It was virtually impossible to sit at a cafe without being pestered by 2 or 3 gypsy women clutching babies (or in one case a bundle of rags clutched to her chest to look like a baby) and it spoilt the whole trip.
That is a statement of truth and makes people sympathetic to these parties and more willing to believe the rest of what they say, especially when stating the truth is shouted down as racist or censored. I recently had a post on a BBC blog deleted for complaining that my local council spent £1M on an art gallery for artists from ethnic minorities and that I felt it was outrageous that its a crime to refuse to let a black artist display their work because of their race but O.K to refuse a white artist wall space because they're white. This sort of over-PC censorship plays into the hands of neo-nazis and wins them far more sympathy than they could ever get on their own.
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Re82: WA ouaou, you opened the subject of my interest, do not forget I am an engineer specialising in hi-tech project management.
You mention Russia's need for infrastructure projects and speak about construction of roads and such. And I ask you, why would you want to construct huge highways all along Siberia? Russia is 140 million people which makes it considerably sparsely populated and Siberia is one of the least populated areas. A highway is therefore not profitable, it is just to imitate the US or Europe. But each country has different needs. Even if one could claim that Russia should built highways to let its companies transfer the ressources extracted in Siberia that is a stupid solution since it is much cheaper, energy saving and environmentally friendly to built railways. And anyway, who will get his car to travel 3,000 and 4,000 kilometers? If they do highways in Europe it is because its little countries have big cities in small distances like 50 to 200 kilometers. Connecting with highways Nobosibirsk to Moscow (how many 1000s kilometers?) will give little help as people will not get their car to do the distance and then inbetween there are smaller towns that can get as well to use the train. If they really need to get their car they will be payin in fuel much more than the price of renting a nice new car in Moscow!!!
Highways in Russia would be profitable and needed if the country was habitated by the double of the US population, i.e. around 600 million people having cities of 15-20 million people at distances of 500 km. It is simply economics. The rest is just image and stupid talks like "we have highways, you have chariot mud roads". Even better. I love nature, I like off-road and I consider the Lada Niva as one of the all-time top off-road vehicles. In Greece it is the vehicle of choice of hunters: it outperforms cars 4 times more expensive, it is easy to maintain and repair and, for a Russian car (weird), it has some style on its own right! Haha! But highways in Russia? No. Big roads inside cities maybe yes. When and where they are needed.
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H;
"It is never quite clear to me why you hate Europe and All things European So Much ?"
coco;
"you need white people. or actually, you needed white people. now you despi[s]e them."
That racist statement would be more than sufficient all by itself. Being human is not a matter of being white, black, yellow, red, or green. It is not a matter of being German, Gypsy, Jew, Russsian, or any other nationality, race, religion or ethnicity.
H;
"What happened to you in Europe to make you pour forth so much vitriol ?"
I saw cocos and and people like you undiluted in their native habitat everywhere I looked, everywhere I went, uninhibited and free to act as their native culture taught them. I saw unabashed racism, anti-semitism, and other hatreds first hand over and over again. I saw it displayed without apology and universally accepted. I think the demonstration of it at Le Lac in Bordeaux in the spring of 1973 was about the last straw. I could hardly wait to leave. At the end, I counted the days and the hours. I'll never go back.
H;
"My first wife was American of an old Boston family , father and mother both Harvard graduates and father a Harvard professor . I have spent a lot of happy times in the US , my children have dual nationality , two sons live in the US ."
"I have never particularly like the US ; it is not a country that I would choose to live in . The USA for all its No.1 status is in fact to a surprising extent a 3rd world country . About 5% of the population is REALLY educated"
Your typically European elitism doesn't fly here either. A piece of paper that says you sat through enough classes, passed enough exams to get a diploma may get you a job or two when you are young but that does not prove you are educated, qualified, or smart. Our markets pay for what you do, not what credentials you have. We have problems with our primary and secondary education systems just like many other countries. But our colleges and universities are by far the finest in the world and we have thousands of them. People flock from everywhere in the world to attend them. We have vast numbers of many other types of schools too. Education is a perpetual process in America. It doesn't stop with a university degree and doesn't necessarily have to include one. It is said that in interviews for your first job they ask you what college you went to and what grades you got. In your second, did you go to college and did you graduate. In your third and after they want to know what have you done since you left school and started working. Some of our most creative and productive people never graduated college. We do not discard their potential, we do not disvalue their contributions because of it.
Yes we do value the ability to make money. America values enterprise and success but it doesn't guarantee it. It is a land of opportunities, not guarantees. Small wonder Europeans who expect life to be handed to them on a silver platter just because they think they are born to the purple and deserve it should be automatically granted it. In this country if you want respect, you have to earn it and show it to others. Clearly people who hate Gypsies, Jews, and anyone else who is "the other" will not be happy here. You are much better off where you are back in Europe where it seems to me so many people see the world the way you do.
I have both Romanian and Hungarian ancestry in my blood. I understand that things do not always go well between people in these countries. I've read at least in the past Romanians have discriminated against Hungarians living in their country. I could hardly care less. For all I care they can do whatever they like to each other. Some European "union" you have there where everybody hates everybody else. And to think some actually believe that a centralized tyranny is necessary to prevent them from fighting yet another war, having another bloodbath as a rationalization for that tyranny. If there is another war among them, I hope America has learned the lesson President Washington tried to teach us, to stay out of it. We have no stake in which side wins.
H;
"You make comparisons with the US , as if the United States of America is Utopia , Paradise , Heaven on Earth ."
We are working on it. We are working to stamp out the last traces of the legacy of the kinds of hatreds we inherited from Europeans and their descendants who settled here. We aren't there yet but we are making excellent progress. As far as I can tell, Europe has made little if any real progress at all. It is not my vitriol that is repugnant, it is the preponderence of racial, ethnic, and religious hatred I read on BBC blogs by Europeans all the time. For example, every last posting critical of Israel is one more example that hatred for Jews is alive and well among Europeans. A litany that goes on seemingly forever. That kind of hatred and what we see here is ultimately the root cause of why Europe is doomed. It will be consumed by it without the slightest doubt.
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Having lived in Hungary, this is not new and neither has it been brought about by weak government and economic problems, instead it is indicative of the Hungarian culture and mentality. Similarly, and from experience, the Roma do make a living from crime - it's what they do and work is not part of their mentality.
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The Roma are an interesting case. They test the limits of human rights law in Europe.
Leaving aside the vast numbers of people in Latvia who have been abandoned by EU human rights law because of their alleged ethnicity, because after all that is the fashion in the EU (to leave these people and their rights to one side), the Roma are the focal point of the human rights debate.
The Roma live by an extremely radical and yet conservative ideology. Thieves or not, they share the land they have lived upon for countless generations, and this makes them distinct from every other european tribe. Their social customs are rational and sustainable from the point of view of nomadic peoples. Only when they are judged by sedentary custom and law do they become interlopers and parasites.
The very existence of the roma is a challenge to the idea that human beings are defined by the region of land upon which they live. They make a mockery of nationalism and petty regional disputes. They set a dangerous precedent: here are human beings without land, without taxes, without a central government to protect them from external enemies. And yet they survive and thrive. They exist as human beings with a culture and customs. They do not descend helplessly into warfare or anarchy, but rather their customs endure the tests of time far better than any specific culture based on specific geographical locations.
So I can understand why the Roma are always the last people to be defended by the state. They are the anti state. They betray the ultimate fiction of the state: that we need the state to live as decent human beings. That without the state human beings have no capacity to govern themselves properly.
Curiously, the jews suffered horribly in Europe for exactly the same reasons. Jews cross cultural and geographic boundaries. They identified with a creed based upon principles rather than property rights.
I would suggest that in order to allow the Roma their full scope of fundamental human rights, EU law will need to place the rights of the individual above the rights of property. Or rather, it will need to set out and enforce rights for people with no particular standing in any particular member state. That will be a radical and profound change for EU law. As things stand, EU law is enforced in each member state by the courts of that member state. Consequently, we see massive and sustained abuses of human rights, in Latvia, Hungary, Italy and elsewhere. So far the EU sits back and does nothing, preaching human rights loudly, yet ignoring them with a steadfast resolution.
When I look at the reasons the USA became a successful federal project, I'm struck by the degree to which the USA was a nation founded on the fundamental rights of human beings. Fundamental human rights were not only accepted by the founders of the USA, they were declared to be self evident, and sacred at law.
Even today the whole world judges the USA by its own standards, and not by any other benchmark of decency and human rights law. The ECHR may pretend that it is a European institution, and not an attempt to modernize Europe to conform with American standards of law, but that is a lame and feeble charade.
At its heart, europe does not respect human rights. It respects property rights, and the relations of class that make one person proper to another. There has never been a declaration that the rights of human beings are self evident, nor has there ever been a legal community established which owed more loyalty to the common people than it did to a titled aristocracy. What token lip service to human rights have been dragged from the EU institutions have been obtained only after long disputes in the courts of member states, against the will of the architects and rulers of the EU institutions. Europe admits the existence of human rights reluctantly, and with no enthusiasm.
People talk about a lack of political union undermining the common currency, but what undermines the concept of political union? I'd venture it is the lack of human rights law, and the profound disengagement of the individual from the state in european affairs.
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And to explain you what are the possibilities I will say 2-3 things you might had not heard even if you vaguely mention them:
Siberian railways. Perhaps one of the hugest questions right now and one of the basis of all talks on imaginary terrorisms and nuclear threats. Well how about that? Right now, next to gas, the hypersiberian is the second biggest "terrorist", "rogue act" and "nuclear threat" in the world!!! Even when the first hyper-siberian was built there was a huge talk about the "dangers" of it and it led to New York, London & Zurich investors funding the Bolshevik revolution to take "out of the international market" that part of the world. Similarly with China.
What dangers? Hmmm... you should had already understood:
Picture this: You have a factory in the biggest Chinese city, Chongking, the biggest city in the world (nobody knows it eh?). It sells industrial mechanical parts and exports them all around the world. How does it send its shipments to a client in Frankfurt, Germany?
Way 1:
Put the shipment on a lorry or a train, transfer it eastwards 1500km to Sanghai and put it on a ship. The ship will make half the round of the world, passing in the proximity of Singapoor, India, Yemen then Egypt and enter via Suez in the Mediterranean, then either go to north Italy (Adriatic or Tyrrhenian side) unload on a truck (or train) and move to Franfurt to deliver... or the ship will just do the round of Europe arriving at Rotterdam or Hamburg who have bigger ports and facilities than Italian ports, and unload there on a truck or railway (or possibly a river boat)... how many days, (... or should I say months?)...
... you might as well, load it on a UFO, send it to outer space, make a round or two over the A-Centauri solar system and come back to land at Hamburg, from there on, of course again with train ouf course, and truck, of course, of course, of course... i.e. .... you are off course!!!
Way2: Built a railroad which connects directly China to Germany. You load the shipment direct on train and it arrives in 2-3 days in Germany under 1940s technology, and within 24 hours under modern technology.
So all you have to do is to lay a railroad. Rather a highway of railroads, i.e. a minimum 5 rail tracks for each go (it is not much more expensive than building 2 rail tracks...). Will it be the super-fast TGV style? Or the jet-fast Maglev style (not the Japanese, this is an old and sub-engineered project anyway, I mean a proper Maglev).
It goes without question that it is 10 times more simple, cost-effective, secure, environmentally safe, ressource-effective, management-facilitating and above all cheap cheap cheap... to transport all the East-West commmerce via railroads (be it rails or magnetic, I am refering to both...)!
Now the big issue is where to make it? Chinese could get all the central Asian countries to make it, or they could get all the Middle Eastern countries but lets face it: the easiest and shortest parth is via Siberia because:
1) Steppes are just plain easier for railway construction than crossing Everest, Afganistan, Caucasus...
2) Between China and Germany it will be only Russia (ah! yes! Bielorussia and Poland... sorry I am not even discussing them: if they do not wish to be part of it and remain to the 20th century, Russians can as well pass the line by the sea...)
3) It is the shortest distance due to the earths eliptical globe shape.
And that is the huge, immense problem:
How on earth to permit Russia to take control of the transportation of half the earth's commerce!!!
Everything that is done currently, the wars, the terrorism, the nuclear, Afganistan, Iran etc. etc. are just that:
1) Ressources
2) Traderoutes
or else said:
1) Russian gas
2) Russian railways
You find this strange? Nobody told you so? Take it as it is, why would anyone tell you? Who is "anyone" to tell you? You have to search it yourselfs.
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Nikosha, but that's the point.
We need more people. And they can't come in! :o)))))
They kind of stumble :o(, passing through :o(
And then, the ones who make it in - they stay at the point of entry.
They hold onto the ? little earth bump :o), that they hooked at, and keep to it.
There no circulation in the arteries. It's awful difficult. A road trip through Russia is , how to say, Avatar-2 you can film :o)))))
This is so on purpose; for thousand years Russian tsars thought that their best protection, from the outside world - is to keep Russia un-passable. No pasaran through!
In the hope that someone's army will eventually stuck in the mud :o)))), in some hole :o))))), and wait there. until winter comes :o)))))
Defense Ministry HQ still view road construction in Russia as assault on the national security. In 2010.
You know, for example, I am a St.Petersburger in the 6th generation.
I'd be more :o)))), but there were only about 8 :o)))), I think, in St. Petersburg.
So I am lacking badly :o)))), in stability Russian standards :o))))
We stay where we are.
It's like, how in England, if you saw. You come there, and find the same name of the street as it were in the 15th century.
In Russia it's the same. Only you find not the street name :o)))), but the same people. They never moved out.
A throughfare ww is not for Russia. It's a larger idea. To involve traffic of many goods around and nations around. Simple, ordinary, how to say, trucks.
Anyway, you are welcome with contribution, and as how that project team is criticised :o))))), you can't imagine anyway :o))))). Rest assured they have been told about :o)))), every reason against by now :o)))), ever possible.
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#87
In other words some drunken Frenchman insulted you for being Jewish/Gypsy/American or whatever and you've spent the last 40 years hating everyone and everything European because of it. I bet the internet was the best thing to ever happen to you...finally you got the chance to vent your spleen to the very people you hate the most without taking the risk of saying it to their faces. You are no different to thousands of other people who use this media to expunge their deepest hatreds,prejudices, fears and insecurities anonamously. Pathetic, simply pathetic.
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Not bad writing. From a foreigner. My main problem with it is that the reality is much more complex. I agree, Jobbik is a radical party, but they are not far-right. Not at all! They are radical patriots.
You write, the gypsies are "the scapegoats". No. They are not "the scapegoats". But nearly all of the violent crimes in our streets are committed by gypsies. They are real problem, requiring real solution. Fidesz, the winner of this election, which is absolutely not radical, today announced, the first thing they will do in the parliament will be the "law of 3 strikes". This article guarantees a life sentence for those who commit violent crime 3 times.
The trouble is huge here. Imagine! A gypsy pupil, active boxer, and two of his mates catched a boy from they class, and the boxer guy did punch his head until he lost his consciusness. The victim (17 years old) climed home, and died at home. What was the sentece? 1 year, suspended for four years, for the killer, nothing for his mates!
The people are really angry here! I bet, most of the 17% of the Jobbik is protest vote.
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Marcus, hatred of Isreal does not equal hatred of the Jews anymore than your dislike for Iran equals a hatred of "Muslims".
Isreal is secular.
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Now, some will say "but is it safe to hand over to Russians the management of world trade"?
Yes. Actually much more, not sorry, fantastically more than today's world in which the global management of world trade is up to Americans.
Why? For the single reason that Russia LIVES along with us. Next to us. With us. What interest does Russia would have in China and western Europe having financial troubles - on the contrary, it would rush to aid them stand back on their feet as their riches would be Russia's riches.
Would perhaps all that endanger the independence of Europe and China? Idiotic question: why would cheaper, safer and faster transportation endanger them? If they do not wish, they are always free to trade by ships. Ships will not vanish, they will take a different, more local role connecting random places.
However, there is yet another way to transport things without needing Russia:
Airships. Air-what? Yes, airships. Zepellins. 1 large Zepelling can transport about 1000 tonnes, i.e. 4 times the load of the biggest airplane ever, the Antonov An-225 which transfers I think 250tons. Of course, it cannot reach the spead of Antonof easily but still some modern large Zepellins (of aerodynamic shape, not the cigar-shaped ones) could easily reach 200km/hr, (smaller more aerodynamic ones even more than that) to transport a sizeable load (1000tn is not at all bad) all around the world... and note this, from factory field to factory field, i.e. absolutely no need for any infrastructure which is simply to put amazing.
Problem is that yet again airships will have to fly over Siberia thus Russians again being in control, however, if Europeans and Chinese want to be independent, they can fly via Middle East if they wish, it will slightly increase the cost but it is not big deal.
Problem is again, bankers, investors and our dear Marcus' bosses, the Obamarama and the rest lose control over the worlds' trade. Imagine a world where airports are a thing of the past and where roads are not needed at all? People & goods moving from place to place with no restrictions? It is a nightmare for capitalists whose game is always based on concentrating investments, not spreading them randomly. Too many competitors and too little control.
But, speaking of the whole world, that does not change the fact that all these years, humanity has lost. People think we move forward. No we do not. Iphone is not technology, it is gadgetology. GPS is technology. An airplane is technology but on the wrong direction too much hassle for little results.
The notion of the airport is the most backward notion I can think of right now as I write. Our tranportation civil & military airplanes are pieces of junk. There are airplane designs (like the project EKIP) that propose whole flying spaces that not only are bigger, consume less but - above all! - need no airports and take off from any field or water. Why don't they use these since they are so good designs? Cos they do not need airports. Airports that our grandfathers would had never guessed of their existence as much as Tesla could not imagine the world being wired up for the transfer of electricity (idiots prove always more intelligent than geniuses, that is a fact!). Why airports? Because of the need to control. EKIP & airships are flying machines that need no airports and thus offer real freedom to even the most underdeveloped countries (see Africa etc.). And if EKIP is a high technology construction (that Americans have not yet figured out how to make or so they pretend of course, Russians too keep it aside, they are not less responsible in that...), the airship is such a simple technology, one that can be reduced to an aluminium frame, bags of helium, a GPS and a weather forecast... hehe!
People just cannot imagine how backwards our societies are.
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@Marcusaurellius
Right ok lets try and point out a few things here.
YOu claimed in an earlier post that racism hasn't really been an issue in the last 40 or so years. And yet you have had in the US, the KKK in the deep south, the rodney king incident and many other cases of police rasicm (which whilst on the decline is still a present factor) Try taking a look at judges sentencing in comparable cases between white and black/ hispanic people? A clear trend shows that these groups are given consistently longer sentances.
Compare the average wage for these groups in america and it is the norm to find that once again people of these ethnicities are usually paid less.
You talk as if America is free of corruption or inequality ?! It isn't.
Big business loves America for one reason only- it gets constant preferential treatment from all governments whether Republican or Democrat.
Now i will never claim that these problems are US only because anyone with half a brain can see that these problems are evident in EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENTAL structure the world over.
I personally like many things about America but am not so naive as to believe that it is actually "the land of the free"
Europe does indeed have its problems and you may feel our government are going in the wrong direction to fix them but ultimately there are millions of Europeans living perfectly decent and normal hate free lives. Sadly there are also millions that have become disillusioned with the constant taxes, scandals, increased work loads for little to no appreciation. It is amongst these communities that racism, fascism are allowed to thrive.
You claim that posters on these blogs that are critical of Israel show a European trend of anti semitism. Well whilst some of them undoubtedly do plenty of others offer reasoned criticism for why Israel should change certain things about the way it operates. People the world over are concerned with its foreign policy and concerned with the way the US seems to turn a blind eye to Israels actions and yet will condemm other nations for the exact same actions. Double standards that are only allowed to exist because of Israels strategic importance to the US in the middle east. Using reason to criticise a goverment (regardless of its country of origin) is NOT any form of racism. It is the using of rational argument to discuss the world we live in.
As a last point i also find it ironic that you decry so much those that hate any one "other" than their own group. As you point out America has many groups that make up its composition but once in America you become American, hence a group. You sure do seem to hate anyone outside of your group don't you?? Does this not seem to be a rather obvious double standard ??
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Nik, @90.
Well, I didn't intend to admit our siege problem so openly :o)))
We will put a "bric" on it and see how it goes.
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You also need to get out, more often. :o)
Adhere to the best demonstarted standard of democracy around (Capitolium Hill). Do as you preach :o)))), that kind of thing.
Capitolians themselves never spend too much time at home :o)))))
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Some European "union" you have there where everybody hates everybody else."
MarcusAureliusII, I am sorry but I am having to tell you this again. As far as Europe is concerned, you live in a cartoon world where everything is an outdated, far-fetched cliché. You claim to have lived in Paris for a while but I am finding that claim increasingly questionable and difficult to believe. Your ideas of Europe are on par with a European having the idea that Americans lynch black people all day long and pillage native American villages. I have never met a European who was that naive about America and you are the first American I have ever come across who epressed ideas about Europe of such naivité.
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Anyway, back to (sur)reality and our initial issue:
Re88: Why on earth do we fall down on Hungarians? It is as if we do not know about the Roma people. Good people, lovely people, they produce no major trouble BUT... they can also be a big trouble!!! They are people that have refused to intergrate in any society for the last 1000 years. And no, it is not any racism of Hungarians or other Europeans. Roma just do not want to integrate. It is their human right to do so and one has to respect it. Even if it includes details such as refusing to send their kids to school. One has to respect that. They are such a culture. Leave them be so. But that does not mean that their criminality can be tolerated. They are people that need to be placed in a certain framework. That is something that Roma themselves will tell you too.
Perhaps the Greek approach is the best. We tried several approaches, we tried to convince them sending their kids to school and such. Nothing worked because these people do not wish to intergrate and it is their human right to do so. So we let them live as they like, we do not force them a lot on school or army but only in implicit ways (funnily they do seem to have less of a problem with the army than school, they find it fun as military people and conscripted soldiers just love them: they are the best musicians!). We do not control them on their micro-businesses, we let them tax-evade (as if they are the only ones that do it in Greece!!!), anyway they do not ask a lot, they are not really any burden on society, we let them take over some places where they pose not a huge problem etc. However, when they pass some limits, like gun, drugs, prostitution trading and such, police has to intervene. They too know it. Imagine that there is such mutual understanding that even far-right groups in Greece never spoke badly of Roma and Karatzaferis (leader of far-right) had proposed the Greek police to hire Roma people as policemen to patrol their own camps so that there is no unecessary racial tensions with Roma thinking Greek police targets them more than it should. Roma people are very sensitive people and sometimes even Greeks that are sensitive on others' cultures can offend them - for example the mere presence of more than 2-3 Greeks in a Roma camp is already an offense if they are not invited by anyone there, guess how much the presence of a police car. Yet, there is mutual understanding and there is some strange cohabitation there. But it works. I guess that even if there was any Greek Stalinohilter born to slaughter half the earth, he would never touch the Roma. Greeks respect old stubborn cultures afterall and just love the free attitude of Roma.
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#93
"The people are really angry here! I bet, most of the 17% of the Jobbik is protest vote."
No,no it must mean that all 500 million people of our 27 nations are all fascists and racists. Just ask Marcus what happened to the Jews in 1930's America when the Great Depression happened .Its not a European failure that causes people to persecute minorities in hard times, its a human failure.
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Re93: Calm_Hungarian... I can imagine. That is why I stress to people here to not fall on the Hungarians. And it is true that Roma in Hungary and Romania are quite more violent than elsewhere, say in Greece. Problem is that if they put 20 years on the killer they will have 3,000 armed Roma outside the prison shooting the guards and such, thus they will have to bring the army in to shoot them, then Europeans will rush in as "Roma-saviours" against bad Hungarians... you know how these things go...
However, you have to call an apple apple and an orange orange:
One thing is Roma criminality, which has to be dealt excessively, and another is to make the Roma issue the main issue. It is not. Right now, the real enemies of Hungarians have to be traced elsewhere. Do not let them put you in the spiral of hating each other. Trust me, the same circles try to do the same in Greece. Not with Roma (it has proved impossible as there is some mutual understanding of each ones' position) but with illegal immigrants, mainly Albanians and muslims (80% of Albanians are anyway muslims). They are there for less than 15 years and they already increased criminality by 4 times till the late official records (some 10 years ago)... today they just do not publish the figures in fear of igniting even more "racism" - truth is that crime rate has risen more than 10 times. Illegal immigrants are the 18% of the population and the 65% of the population in prisons, yet only a minor part of their criminality is ever caught and judged and imprisoned (so just imagine what is going on - saying that they are racially targeted is a joke when Greek people are aware that actually the opposite happens, police prefers not to deal with them...).
Then you have all the lefties (US-funded, its the gauche-caviar!) calling Greeks racist and anti-muslim and other funny things among which the most funny is "Greeks being ungrateful for all the development that immigrants brought to the country and their contribution to the Greek economy". Extremely funny as in the real world, immigrants in Greece are one (not the only of course) of the reasons of the explosion of public expenses since they contribute nothing (they all work in the black market) but they enjoy healthcare, schooling and other public services. That in conjunction with increasing the robbery rates of more than 10 times means that they have been a real financial wound there, let alone retaining the average salaries to an ever low range and forcing Greeks to change neighbourhoods paying 2 and 3 times more expensively their houses getting indebted to the banks (when previously they bought their houses often without bank help)...
That is the game. Divide and conquer. We will see more of that in future.
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Marcus, why do you hate arabs so much? What's with the racism there? I thought it didn't exist in the USA? Oh, by the way, did you see that new 'anti-illegal immigrant' law Arizona passed? Very nice, put me in my place. Funny thing is, I have Jewish friends that reserve more vitriol for Israel than anything I've read on this site, really. I'm sure you'll just classify them as 'self-hating' or some such nonsense though.
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@John Anderson: "this is not new and neither has it been brought about by weak government and economic problems, instead it is indicative of the Hungarian culture and mentality"
Yeah, you're right. Thanks to our "culture and mentality", we like to raise our voices periodically against things we don't like. Fashion wasn't the reason for '56 revolution neither.
I'm happy though everything is hunky-dory around you.
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Although the parties you mention share much, Geert Wilders' Freedom Party is somewhat different because they aren't anti-Jew. Actually, it is widely speculated that their party is largely funded by one or more fundamentalist Jewish-American lobby groups. It is hard to debunk this, because their funding is kept secret.
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Nik, I also heard here of Zeppelines :o)
Awful effective, right.
I think most are scared of climes and winds, though.
Short-distance though between regions will work.
To some desired routes they simply can't be applied :o(, it all depends on the wind-rose, prevailing in the region. The prevailing wind direction, in an area.
For example here in Northern Europe where I live there is a so-called big and mighty wind transfer corridor, from West to East, 60% of the time in St. Petersburg the wind is Western.
So it depends locally, where is what, normally.
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"Now, some will say "but is it safe to hand over to Russians the management of world trade"?
Yes. Actually much more, not sorry, fantastically more than today's world in which the global management of world trade is up to Americans."
You too live in a fantasy world. It seems like you have only ever read one book in your life and that is "After the Empire" by Emmanuel Todd. That multi-polar world that the new anti-Americans are dreaming of is never going to become a reality.
America, for all the faults it admittedly has, has been a force for good in the last 70 years, which cannot be denied and should not be dismissed. It has helped Europe re-build after the second world war and protected the western part of it from a grave threat for 54 years and finally helped liberate all of Europe. One must not be a great fan of all things Americans to show a little bit of gratitude for that from time to time.
Now you would like to see America step back and Russia take over. This is not going to happen for 2 important reasons:
Russia is weak and weakening. Its population is declining at a rate that even puts Gemany to shame. True, America has a great many problems all its own and it is not the economic superpower it used to be. But given the choice between America and Russia, America clearly comes off as the stronger one, economically, militarily, culturally, ethically, morally. The small nations on the western and south-eastern fringe of the Eurasian platter will have to make a choice between the two possible candidates for the throne - America or Russia. Should they choose a weakened yet benign and democratic king who will deny them a wish from time to time but will always be ready to negotiate? Or will it be a psychopath who invades neighbouring countries, has a totally impoverished populace and a declining population? To crown a candidate in his death throes - would it be a wise choice to make?
The second reason is to be found in something that America and Russia have in common. They both have an insatiable desire to project themselves onto the world. Essentially, this means that America would see an ideal world as one where the whole world has become like America, and Russia would see an ideal world as one where the whole world has become like Russia. Now, very few people in Europe and south-east Asia would want to become exactly like America. The faults in the American system, its society's susceptibility to racism and other forms of bigotry and its economic weakness is not something many people would find attractive. But the generally benign nature of American foreign policy does not force anyone to become American, so this is not a problem that would necessarily have to get out of hand for the rest of the world.
What about Russia - a country known to be much more profuse and aggressive in its endeavour to project itself onto the world? A world that looked like America maybe full of flaws, bigotry and racism, economic calamity and anti-social behaviour, but it would also be a world studded with prosperous cities, towns, villages, farms and ranches. It would be a creative and inventive world where scientific progress would be guaranteed. A world that looked like Russia? Essentially three or four mega-cities consisting of socialist-style concrete tower blocks and make-shift dwellings for those who didn't make it in society. Beyond that, an empty planet covered in wasteland, interspersed here and there with a few concrete tower blocks or nuclear reactors. The whole planet an uncivilised steppe.
I know which one I would choose. And I do not understand your antagonism to the U.S. and your blind devotion of Russia. I have been in countries and if I want to explain my nephews and nieces the difference between a successful civilisation and a failed state, I get out my photo album and show them pictures of my travels to America and Russia.
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Hi,
I am from Hungary. Why some people say that Jobbik antisemitic?
The fact is that (and anyone can check eg. on youtube). Simon Perez (Israel) said that in front of TV cameras: "We overbuy Hungary, Poland and Manhattan". What hungarians can see in their own country? While there are more and more poor people without work, the health-care system is ruined, education system is ruined, lot of crime, no work AND you can read about that business people from Israel bought a lot of land or houses for a very cheap price because the goverment is rather corrupt ADN read about that how enormous money gone (disappeard) becsause of the Goverments in the last 20 years. They lied to the people and stole from the people. And give back nothing. Now they try to sell the last important thing to foreigners - the land. Who has the land, has Hungary, too. I think anyone can understand. And unfortunately it is a truth that many cases you can see israelic name behind the businesses however there are just a really few media who can dare to write about it.
Jobbik is the only party who can dare say about it and cca. 1.000.000 people fear that hungarians will follow the destiny of palestinians at the end of this process.
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I like the ramblings of MarcusAureliusII. Can we have a live webcam of him at his desk, furiously typing away, whilst wearing his George Washington wig and frock coat and constantly checking out his window for approaching redcoats?
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Wilders party is 100% pro Israel, no doubt about that. Nothing to do with 'far right' or any such labels. No doubt the press in the Netherlands (which is frighteningly biased to the left) has passed such qualifications of mr Wilders on to the world. Wilders is merely pointing out the odious past of islam and also its (islam's) friendly relations with the nazis. And in that, I'm sorry to say my dear politically correct friends, he is not wrong. What Wilders gets wrong is that he doesn't see that christianity has an equally odious past as islam has.
And that 'far right' label I have always found that funny. Fascism being as it was derived from Italian socialism. Its also very much in the mentality of the press, trying to present 'right wing' as bad and 'left wing' as good.
And of course making up excuses for the excesses of communism and islam ('being misinterpreted by radicals') when those (and christianity also) have been at least equally bad, even over a longer period of time. Many left wing intellectuals like George Bernard Shaw openly supported Stalin and even didn't mind what happened in Ukraine in the early 1930's (state engineered famine) or denied it outright like Walter Duranty (holodomor denial).
But try to suggest that nazis were 'radicals who misinterpreted fascism' and you will be ridiculed (and rightfully so). So should it be with communism and religion. Those are not being misinterpreted, but the 'radicals' do exactly what the ideology prescribes. Religion (abrahamic versions) do tell followers to go out and kill, and feel superior and all that and Marx advocated revolutionary terror which Lenin put into practise.
And about the topic, just look at the BNP in the elections for that EU faux-parliament, looking at the results it has to be abundantly clear that BNP got a significant share of its votes directly from Labourites.
And another important reason for the radical shifts in voting patterns is that increasingly the politicians make it absolutely clear that whatever the voters want doesn't interest them at all. Bailing out failed corporations and banks, handing over powers to unelected folks in Brussels and all that, and electorates get an increasing feeling of powerlessness.
With the advent of the EU, the direct link between voter and his vote on one side and politician and law on the other has been severed. The ones with legislative initiative in Brussels are not elected at all and hardly subject to any democratic/parliamentary scrutiny worth mentioning (this is the EU commission aka politburo I am referring to). And the whole Lisbon ratification thingy has made it abundantly clear to many voters that no matter what the voters might think, the EU-elites will push their will through no matter what. Why bother voting if your vote isn't gonna be able to make even the slightest difference?
I've heard lots of people from Netherlands and other countries in Europe complaining in the 'Bush years' about 'fascisms imminent rise in America' but if anywhere, it is more likely here in Europe, and it will draw its support from the same groups as back then, lower middle class and a significant part of labourers/workers. And more frighteningly, an undemocratic political structure is already being built. I don't think it would happen, but if it did, how would you prevent it? I mean, without use of violence?
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FH - this seems a bit exaggerated, don't you think?
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Leo_Naphta wrote:
Furthermore, it's hard to comment in any meaningful fashion on anything Gavin writes at the moment. He's obviously busy furthering the BBC 'curry the favor' agenda, for when Cameron is swept into office. Bang on job! Only, it would be far more informative if he stopped talking in useless terms of Berlin says this, or Brussels says that ... and actually identified the power-structures he's talking about and the actual people that are involved in it.
That's something the press across the EU really needs to start doing. Informing people what the EU really is, how it really works, what implications treaties really have. Now that calls for investigative journalism. But whenever a treaty is there, the press usually blindly copies the EU (commission) propaganda about it as if its estabished fact. No investigative journalism there whatsoever. The Lisbon treaty was a very good example of this and I frequently saw whole phrases from the EU commissions propaganda documents about it copied verbatim by the BBC and presented as facts.
Same goes for the curriculum of many universities 'european studies', I've seen one at my local university, hardly anything but the EU's own propaganda. How can people form an informed view if they are not being told by the press or political elites what is really going on? Over the last 10 years, simply by finding things out for myself, I've turned from a blind EUnthusiast into a hardliner sceptic.
I dare say my understanding of how the EU works may only be marginal but still it is greater than the vast majority of politicians who have no clue whatsoever, except the ones right at the center of it. National politicians elected to national parliaments are particularly ignorant. I know because I've spoken to quite a few of them (most Dutch) and what they think the EU is and how it works is so frighteningly far removed from reality it is unbelievable.
Many of these parliamentarians don't even know the difference between supranational and intergovernmental and many more don't know that a boatload of competence areas are now exclusive EU competences on which national parliaments are now rubber-stamp bodies that cannot change anything. And those folks in the national parliaments are the ones 'approving' most treaties because they 'do not trust the peoples to give the right answer'. I dare say, they themselves are the ones that cannot be trusted with issues like this.
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Chris you said:
You too live in a fantasy world. It seems like you have only ever read one book in your life and that is "After the Empire" by Emmanuel Todd. That multi-polar world that the new anti-Americans are dreaming of is never going to become a reality.
I say:
The multi-polar world IS a reality. It is just that US tries to sabotage it as much as possible. The world is much more vast and much more rich than what is the US with all its ficticious economy.
You said:
America, for all the faults it admittedly has, has been a force for good in the last 70 years, which cannot be denied and should not be dismissed. It has helped Europe re-build after the second world war and protected the western part of it from a grave threat for 54 years and finally helped liberate all of Europe. One must not be a great fan of all things Americans to show a little bit of gratitude for that from time to time.
I say:
Perhaps I happen to come from a country that not only it has absolutely no reason to be grateful to any US but actually it has a lot to say abou it. Funnily there are more countries in the world that have negative things to say than countries that have positive. Get out of your little corner: the world is not France, Germany, Italy, Britain and the little countries in between and north of them. That is the less than 5% of the world. Get out of your oyster and go speak to the world and see what they have to say.
You say:
Now you would like to see America step back and Russia take over. This is not going to happen for 2 important reasons:
I say:
It is there you are wrong. Russia needs not "take over". It is there already in the middle of everything. It is America that is the outsider, the one that gatecrashes! Hence, its violent behaviour.
You say:
Russia is weak and weakening. Its population is declining at a rate that even puts Gemany to shame.
I say:
This is reversible. If you knew your history well you would notice that things like increase and decrease of population are variables, not fatalities.
You say:
True, America has a great many problems all its own and it is not the economic superpower it used to be. But given the choice between America and Russia, America clearly comes off as the stronger one, economically, militarily, culturally, ethically, morally.
I say:
Economically yes till the end of the ficticious petrodollar.
Militarily no. In an eventual war it loses. Russia has double the surface while its nuclear and rockets is still a bit more advanced. There are even suspicions valid enough to refer here that Russians have some other too weapons that the US is not yet able to develop and that is why US is so anxious to set nuclear missile bases so near Russia: had the US had the upper hand, it would not be anxious at all.
You said:
The small nations on the western and south-eastern fringe of the Eurasian platter will have to make a choice between the two possible candidates for the throne - America or Russia:
a) Should they choose a weakened yet benign and democratic king who will deny them a wish from time to time but will always be ready to negotiate? b) Or will it be a psychopath who invades neighbouring countries, has a totally impoverished populace and a declining population? To crown a candidate in his death throes - would it be a wise choice to make?
I say:
I say they should chose the n°a) Russia.
You say:
The second reason is to be found in something that America and Russia have in common. They both have an insatiable desire to project themselves onto the world. Essentially, this means that America would see an ideal world as one where the whole world has become like America, and Russia would see an ideal world as one where the whole world has become like Russia.
Well it is there you are wrong. You keep refering to USSR. But Russia is not USSR. It has not such objectives. It has a free market yet with heavy state involvement. Russia does not care at all if you are communist or capitalist, if your government is right wing or left wing. It cares simply to do business with you. They speak in business terms and they sit on the same table with you. Americans sit on the table but then they od not let you sit, you stand in front of them and they order you. If you don't they attack you. Since 1990 America has attacked:
Iraq
Panama
Somalia
Serbia
Afganistan
Iraq
Pakistan
... let alone having still up to day open military operations in Georgia, Chechenia (i.e. on the inside of Russia!) & Pakistan while arming and inciting various other groups all over the world. The aritificially created war on as-if international terrirorism (an international joke) has destabilised the international scene resulting in a case that a bomb can land anywhere (...the americans feel like it has to...).
Since 1990 Russians have:
1) Attacked 2 times the Chechen rebels defeding their own territorial integrity, after failure of negotiating with them. Finally they managed to negotiate with son of killed leader, Kadyrov and they established order.
2) Attacked Georgia to prevent the massacre and complete ethnic cleansing of Ossetians and Abkhasians who are Russian citizens.
3) It continues to arm Ossetians and Abkhasians who are of course now independent no matter if western countries do not recognise it (but they recognise Kosovo - which is hilarious of course!!!).
In fact, Russian behaviour is EXEMPLARY. If superpowers were that aggressive the world would be much much safer. US on the contrary is a force of destabilisation.
You say:
Now, very few people in Europe and south-east Asia would want to become exactly like America. The faults in the American system, its society's susceptibility to racism and other forms of bigotry and its economic weakness is not something many people would find attractive. But the generally benign nature of American foreign policy does not force anyone to become American, so this is not a problem that would necessarily have to get out of hand for the rest of the world.
I say:
Nor anyone wants to become Russia. In fact Russians would not ever search for something like that. They are a multinational Empire themselves you know. They have been such throughout their history.
You sai:
A world that looked like America maybe full of flaws, bigotry and racism, economic calamity and anti-social behaviour, but it would also be a world studded with prosperous cities, towns, villages, farms and ranches. It would be a creative and inventive world where scientific progress would be guaranteed. A world that looked like Russia? Essentially three or four mega-cities consisting of socialist-style concrete tower blocks and make-shift dwellings for those who didn't make it in society. Beyond that, an empty planet covered in wasteland, interspersed here and there with a few concrete tower blocks or nuclear reactors. The whole planet an uncivilised steppe.
The 1/3 of US society IS 3rd world and that is Americans themselves that say so, not me. They even receive humanitarian aid: cheap oil from Venezuela. What else can I say?
As for Russia you have not seen yet what it is capable. You keep refering to USSR and communism and such. You keep forgetting that US presented all it had to present. Russia has not even started as it was interrupted 100 years ago. USSR was USSR. As simple as that.
You say:
I know which one I would choose. And I do not understand your antagonism to the U.S. and your blind devotion of Russia. I have been in countries and if I want to explain my nephews and nieces the difference between a successful civilisation and a failed state, I get out my photo album and show them pictures of my travels to America and Russia.
I say:
Me blind devotion to Russia? You must be joking. But I am not any primitive bending down and adoring mirrors and little glass balls (iphones, disneylands and other such...) to give my gold and land. US is there to take. USSR to give and take. There is huge difference in that.
I am for independency in states. In terms of Europe I would be more for a military alliance between independent states. I just find extremely idiotic to have US as-if protecting Europe. It does not protect... it simply pumps: change the u with an i. In most areas US is a force of destabilisation. If you happen to come from Britain (a country that is aligned with US) or from Germany a country that survived thanx to the decision of Britain-US it is normal to adore the US and be afraid of Russia. But for the rest of the world, this is not the case. At least not for no, nor for the next 30 years. If after 40 years Russia becomes a force of destabilisation then I might say the same as I say here for the US but for the time being the rogue country is US nor Russia.
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Re107: WA... yes, the same good old fear of cross-winds and such. Well, I wonder why they had not much of a problem with that in the 1920s and 30s. And back then they did not have weather forecasts. And they used cigar-shaped zepelins since back then aerodynamics were not well understood. That lack of understanding of aerodynamics led to the development of the Boeing plane - the good old cylinder with wings, which is applied to most if not all transportation aircafts. Since that was the design the more easily fabricated back then (for everyone, Americans, Russians etc.) the whole industry was built around that design and every plane was a mere step approach on the previous.
A modern airship has eliptical shape and can have variable geometry to adapt to different winds. They do have stabilisation motors that can alter their ouput automatically to changes of wind. Very unfavourable winds can only drop the speed to the 80% of the maximum and increase the consumption by 20%. Still that is negligible disadvantage unless the German manager will complain if his shipment from China arrives in 3 days and not in 2,5 days... when today the shipment does about 2 to 3 months!!! See what I mean?
An EKIP aircraft (that is an airplane) has not even all that disadvantages, however it is a much more expensive design (still affordable when you need no airport and will be able to carry 1000 to 1500 passengers in it and in a much more safe manner).
The reason I love the Zeps is that it is such a basic technology that everyone can do it. Problem is, you were: you know who controls aviation licenses (and no I am not refering only to Americans, Russians and others are equally guilty in that, lets make things clear...).
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Marcus Aurelius:
I am quite happy with my name, thank you very much. Unlike you, I am brave enough to use my own.
"I don't need to do research on google or anywhere else to know what America is about. I've lived most of my long life here. All but two years of it. I see it every day. I've traveled over much of it. Living and experiencing it IS my research. Sorry to disappoint you, you are wrong. It may have been the way you imagine it 40 and 50 years ago but not anymore."
I have a friend, who is of an American origin (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents...etc), and he is of a totally different opinion. Could you explain why should I rather accept yours? How about illustrating your ideas with facts, because we have not heard anything else but reiteration of the same old mantra over and over again. It's not a real argument.
"What is happenig there (...In Hungary...) seems typical of what is happening all over Europe. It's what always happened in Europe. It is one of the very most important reasons America was invented...as a place to escape it."
Ooh, is it so? And in your ways,when was it "invented" and by whom? And how is it related to the racism in Europe?
"We are working on it. We are working to stamp out the last traces of the legacy of the kinds of hatreds we inherited from Europeans and their descendants who settled here. We aren't there yet but we are making excellent progress."
"We" includes "I"....and you have a long way to go yet, Marcus, believe me. In fact, whom do you consider an American? Could you clarify that for us, please?
"Whatever you think or fear, the fact is that the Constitution of the United States of America is entirely original. Nothing like it and no government anything like it ever existed before it did. I don't think there's another quite like it even more than 200 years after it was written and adopted."
I admit I made a mistake on that one. However, Thomas Jefferson was admittedly influenced by British and French philosophers,not to talk about Ancient Greek and Roman thinkers, who set the basis of modern democratic thinking.
"I have both Romanian and Hungarian ancestry in my blood. I understand that things do not always go well between people in these countries. I've read at least in the past Romanians have discriminated against Hungarians living in their country. I could hardly care less."
Then why did you find it important to mention it? What did you want to say with that?
"Recently BBC reported on discrimination against Hungarians in Slovakia. I guess they figure if they have to take it elsewhere, they should dish it out themselves at home. It hardly matters which European country you go to. Somebody always seems to be discriminating against someone else."
These are just the childhood diseases of a young country,though the antagonism the Slovaks feel towards Hungarians has been obviously going on since the abolishment of Matica slovenská, which was a stupid mistake made by the Hungarian government. People will get fed up with the cheap rhetoric soon and start concentrating on real problems. And Jobbik will vanish from the Hungarian political scene as quickly as it emerged.
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mvr512 wrote:
"Wilders is merely pointing out the odious past of islam and also its (islam's) friendly relations with the nazis. "
A perfectly normal comment in the course of a perfectly normal discussion.
And yet, if I or anyone else were to substitute the word "islam" with the word "judaism", then we would be....... ANTI-SEMITIC!!! And race haters and blah blah blah.
I think i am going to start being anti-semitic as a matter of principle. I quite like the jews I have met, and I don't blame Israel for doing as required by US foreign policy. That is the bag of the USA to carry, as far as blame is concerned.
But this situation whereby one is not allowed to dislike judaism..... it makes it a moral duty to do so.
Why can I dislike catholics, muslims, protestants, buddhists and that is OK, but when I choose to dislike the jewish religion I am somehow an emotionally disturbed hater?
So, much as do like the individual jews I've met, and much as I dislike the idiocy of hating a group or blaming one select group for every problem in the world, I feel it is my duty to start being anti-semitic at every opportunity.
No religious group should have the protection from criticism that the jewish faith receives. It is outrageous and oppressive to reason. Therefore I am against that faith, specifically, because of the damage it is doing to reason and fair play. And also because I am sick of hearing about their suffering. Give some other victims a go!
The jews must learn to share the prize of international victimhood with others. They have been greedy and selfish to bang on and on about their run in with the german reich.
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Chris Camp, @108 you got it all wrong. As usual :o).
You judge Russia expansion mode by Mr Stalin expansion mode which lasted 40 years. Which in fact was a lengthy hangover, a "morning after",
a heritage, of the initial Stalin grab-over - done during the 2nd world war. War time, for a sec. War, in which we were nearly destroyed, in fact - 1/2 wiped-out - and, how to say, naturally annoyed a bear. To put it softly.
While Russia expanded the rest of the time as well; 700 AC - 2010 AC - and I don't remember a public outcry about it. :o))))))
I mean, we wouldn't be this size if we haven't expanded, right? Somehow you arrive to this point. And no one complained, mind it.
(Don't give me as "complainers" other competing Empires, with a hungry eye themselves. If we stepped on someone's tail - sure these will have a grudge, from the old times. As they wanted it for themselves :o))))
Land is not bought; if it increases on one side - it decreases on another. You can't make a country out of empty air.
And from what I noticed, LOL, even during the worst time period of "Russian management", Lenin-Stalin-Khruschev company period, - still we gave birth to 15 countries appearing on the map. Finland and 14 ex-USSR. Look on the map - and try to find any such country prior to 1917.
A bad time for all, no doubt, but I don't think even Kazakhstan would swap it back, for what it were before.
So I won't say that, speaking in the political map of the world terms, the results of our management are so drastic horror.
From the country formation point results.
Second. Surely it is much more free to be "Russia" than the USA.
We don't demand anything of people. Any thing.
In USA the prerequisite is you have to love USA. Nearly, by law :o))))
Otherwise you are a technically wrong American.
While on our side - which we aren't eager to impose on anyone, please note (well, Polar bears might become our next citizen portion :o)))), in the nearest plans :o))))) - "Polar bears and Birds' Republic") it is perfectly alright to blame Russia in all sins possible and swear about it on all corners. :o)))))
Simply a sanity check on the population - shows that all are in their right mind, not mad yet. Realise own deficiencies. Understandd own defects. More modest approach, how to say.
As the joke goes - what's the difference between USA and Russia?
- Well, Americans passionately and full-heartily believe that their country is the best on Earth. And get deeply offended, if a foreigner disagrees with them.
- Russians are the same. Russians full-heartily and passionately believe that their country is the worst on Earth. And get deeply offended, if a foreigner agrees with them.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
And yes of course we, say, over-reacted :o))))). Grabatised 1/2 of Europe and kept it, in the "sphere of influence", for 40 full years.
As a buffer cushion, between us and the West.
But all is understood in comparison.
Just mentally compare, Chris Camp, with your fvourite USA - what they would have done in Russia's place. In USSR's, even, place.
Picture the USA razed down to the ground in the reslt of the war, by one half. Up to? don't know, what' their equivalent of Europe. Up to the Rocky Mountains.
And then see how would they "over-react" to that.
I don't think the world would get away with a "zone of US influence, during 40 years", over a row of countries. LOL.
I think a stone won't stay un-turned on stone, should the US be "annoyed" by a European intruder, like the USSR was.
You'll be looking for "Europe" on the map after with a magnifying glass in hands. And won't find! :o)))))
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To have the picture complete :o), imagine that the USA, at that time of being attacked by a European country, is led not by no Barack Obama, but by Saakashvili.
And count your chances to survive at all.
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Re "As the joke goes - what's the difference between USA and Russia?
- Well, Americans passionately and full-heartily believe that their country is the best on Earth. And get deeply offended, if a foreigner disagrees with them.
- Russians are the same. Russians full-heartily and passionately believe that their country is the worst on Earth. And get deeply offended, if a foreigner agrees with them. "
An American boasts: I can stand in front of the White House, call the US president the worst scum on Earth and nothing happens to me.
-Big deal! -laughs a Russian.
I can stand in front of te Kremlin,
call the US president the worst scum on Earth
and not only nothing happens to me: I actually get a bonus!
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power meer,
Your joke has a long beard :o). That's old USSR one.
Anything new, that you know of? From Russian stocks?
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Nik, Nik, tut tut tut... what am I going to do with you. Firstly:
1.) Operation "Just Cause" did not happen after 1990. It happened before. "Just Cause" was, by the way, a just cause, as the United States disposed of a dictator and put in place a legitimately elected leader.
2.) The second Gulf War, which happened in 1990, was a defensive war, as Saddam Hussein had ordered his thugs to invade Kuweit. It was not a US but a UN war, as approved by the UN security council. The third Gulf War in 2003 was basically a mop-up operation, disposing of the tyrant and putting democratic mechanisms in place. Too late, I am the first to admit, but a just cause.
3.) The United Task Force was a US led intervention in Somalia, approved by the UN. Its lack of success does not have anything to say about its legitimacy.
4.) The war against Afghanistan was an act of defense, as the United States was attacked first, on September 11. Defensive wars are permissible according to international war. In that war, the international community clean up a mess the Russians left behind, by the way.
5.) The war against Yugoslavia (you call it Serbia, nice Freudian slip there...) was the iffiest war the United States ever fought. But compared to your feeble justifications for Russia's genocide-for-dummies in Chechnya and its aggression against Georgia (morew about that in a moment) the US had more than enough justification to stop the Serbs from ethnically cleansing Kosovo.
6.) The U.S. has never fought a war against Pakistan.
Now onto your justification and mitigation of Russian aggression since 1990. First of all, the idea that the three events you mentioned were the only ones is laughable. What about Russia's brutal attempts at keeping the Baltic states prisoner, for example? But onto your apologetics:
1.) The war against Georgia was an obvious aggression. In the lead-up to the aggression Russia drastically increased its euphemistically-named "peacekeeping force" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. For years, the Russian Media (for instance, I frequently check on the Neo-Stalinist claptrap organ "Russia Today") had referred to them as "breakaway provinces, a clear indication of renewed Russian irredentism. In addition, Russia granted passports to any stateless individual living in those regions. According to international law, you it is impermissible to use demographics as justification to annex territory from another country. Georgia was merely reacting to this and to call it a genocide is absolute nonsense. If Greece deports an individual who doesn't have a Greek passport, then that is not genocide. In Europe, that happens all the time. Needless to say that Russia did not seek or receive UN approval for this brutal infraction of international law.
2.) Now the justification "territorial integrity" in the two Chechen wars may be more credible if Russia respected the territorial integrity of other nations (i,e, Poland, Baltic States, Georgia etc...). As it stands, its a laughable argument and another one in a long row of Russian mass-killings.
Russia, by the way, is also responsible for many of the calamities in eastern Europe, which gets us back round to the topic of Hungary. If those countries had not been forced to vegetate under the Russian yoke, then they might have developed much quicker, perhaps as quick or quicker than France and Germany. There is an unnatural difference in economic development between eastern and western Europe. Greece, where ubiquitous corruption is the main cause for the country's bankruptcy, is a special case. The once great nations of Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Hungary, Romania, Czech republic and Slovakia (and hypothetically Yugoslavia if that nation hadn't fallen apart) should be as prosperous if not more prosperous than western European nations. Their poverty is still a result of the fact that the Russians took them hostage for 45 years. No wonder some of those nations are fertile breeding grounds for extremist parties.
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I guess asking why dark-skinned people in Russia are called 'chernozhops' [black asses] can offend some.
While calling them 'black asses' itself is obviously not offensive.
In putinesque "new, improved, democratic Russia".
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power meer wash you mouth with soap.
even if you keep company with ? I don't know :o))))) where were you snooping
In the dock-yards? in Cherkizovsky market, among kiosk stalls?
? waiting on the passage out of some ? factory, at 5 pm :o))))
Congrats on surviving :o), with a dictophone, can imagine.
- it's not the reason to bring all you heard at eh nevermind to an int'l blog.
This way you'll soon teach all eh oh bad language.
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"
The first and so far only truly democratic state was formed in 1776.
Ninety years later they even cancelled serfdom.
Then
"
:o)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Chris... hehe... but I really do appreciate you replying in points. You present a very good dialogue here:
1.) Yes I was refering to operation "Just Cause": from Christmass 1989 to end of January 1990. Should I go on sales and put in the 80s. No. Disposing a dictator is not any justification for war and putting in place a legitimately elected leader... one wonders who "legitimate" he is. Anyone Yushenko, cheap Yushenko, good Yushenko...? You know, back in 1973 US had regretted putting dictator Papadopoulos and they paid the leftish (with which they collaborate excellently, just like British did in the past) to create artificial chaos and give rise to their new dictator. I guess the one legitimacy over the other.
2.) The second Gulf War, which happened in 1990 - again late 1990 early 91. They do love winter operations it seems. It was a defensive war for the state with no reason of existence, Kuweit against another state with no reason of existence Iraq. Of absolutely no interest to me. Nor to Americans apart the fact that their only interest was to have their armies stationed in the area to make sure no oil goes out of there if not traded in freshly printed US petrodollar. What else can I say?
3.) The United Task Force was a US led intervention in Somalia, approved by the UN. Its lack of success does not have anything to say about its legitimacy.
Eeee Chris. Don't you get it that it is illegitimate to send armies even in failed states? It is none of your business. I do not care if they are dying it is their problem, their business. If you let these people alone they will kill each other, yes, but 100 will die and they will stop. If you let Americans go in, they will keep on killing each other at a rate of 100,000s. Cos that is the plan. No powefull state should exist in the Red Sea. Check Ethiopia... the only historic African state and one of those with huge potential it is deprived of sea access just because "some" like it that way. This is the reality.
4.) The war against Afghanistan was an act of defense, as the United States was attacked first, on September 11.
Eleven what? Eleven o'clock?
Chris. You must be joking. Ppllease! Not even 50% of Americans do believe in that anymore. The other 50% are simply desperate to believe in something.
5.) The war against Yugoslavia (you call it Serbia, nice Freudian slip there...) was the iffiest war the United States ever fought. But compared to your feeble justifications for Russia's genocide-for-dummies in Chechnya and its aggression against Georgia (morew about that in a moment) the US had more than enough justification to stop the Serbs from ethnically cleansing Kosovo.
I do not accuse simply USA in that. The responsibilities of European countries like Germany, Britain and Italy are immense. US to be honest had jumped on the occasion. Back then they were not sure how to treat Jugoslavia, a country that was not really as much collated to Russia as, say Bulgaria. It was Europeans that showed them the way. Immoral.
6.) The U.S. has never fought a war against Pakistan.
True, they are good friends against India of course! But then they do nto hesitate bombing civilians inside, say they saw 1 insurgent, they will drop a smart weapon that will kill half the town, easy task.
Now onto your justification and mitigation of Russian aggression since 1990. First of all, the idea that the three events you mentioned were the only ones is laughable. What about Russia's brutal attempts at keeping the Baltic states prisoner, for example? But onto your apologetics:
Wait a minute, how about the Baltics? What again? What do they suffer from Russia?
1.) The war against Georgia was an obvious aggression. In the lead-up to the aggression Russia drastically increased its euphemistically-named "peacekeeping force" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. For years, the Russian Media (for instance, I frequently check on the Neo-Stalinist claptrap organ "Russia Today") had referred to them as "breakaway provinces, a clear indication of renewed Russian irredentism. In addition, Russia granted passports to any stateless individual living in those regions. According to international law, you it is impermissible to use demographics as justification to annex territory from another country. Georgia was merely reacting to this and to call it a genocide is absolute nonsense. If Greece deports an individual who doesn't have a Greek passport, then that is not genocide. In Europe, that happens all the time. Needless to say that Russia did not seek or receive UN approval for this brutal infraction of international law.
Chris, try to see things as they are, ok you dislike Russia but give them the amount of responsibility that they have to take. You don't get it do you? Take the timeline from the beginning. Georgia got independent. Just like any other federal state. Georgia was a federal state, not a national state. Whether the federal state owned more or less than the historic Georgian lands this is a thing to discuss. Whether Ossetians or Abkhasians are local that is also another thing to discuss (Ossetians are very much local - they are the medieval Alans for your information, they are there since late Roman times... for Abkhasians I ignore)... but these people found themselves there. Tensions existed since the USSR times. However with Georgia getting independence, Georgians instantly tried to kick out ALL nationalities apart Georgians, i.e. they strived for an ethnically cleansed Georgia. They thought it would be smart NOT to give passports to people not talking in Georgian. All that in the first years of independence!!! Back then Russia was too much introvert to be occupied with that, and questions like Chechenia, inside their own territory, were much more hot. Abkhasians and Ossetians took to the arms. There are plenty of Abkhasians and Ossetians that live on the other side of the border and things in these mountainous areas are really simple, they got the weapons and they fought a war. Had Georgians respected their autonomy
and given them a Georgian citizenship, nothing of all that would had happened, after time their relationship would be streamlined. If Russia was a big bad wolf they would had just pushed Georgia out - what, they would had just invaded it and eat it alive. Apart from the neighbours, back in 1993 the world did not even know what is Georgia anyway, people learnt about it in the 2000s... what do you know? Instead Russia called in Georgia in the negotiation game. In the mean time people asked the Russian citizenship which Russia gave with pleasure - who wouldn't give? Wasn't that expected? And right when things seemed to be calming down with Abkhasians and Ossetians enjoying their freedom and with Georgians enjoying at least nominally their borderlines Saakasvilli thought that his alliance with US would make him powerfull enough to go send his armies start massacring people. Exactly what he thought there is not known, what did he think? That US would bomb directly Russian forces? Now Georgia lost these territories. Georgians should take it to the streets and depose this semi-dictator. Many Serbians had been protesting for ages against Milosevic in the streets. Georgians did not do. In that way they seem to agree implicitly with his policy and thus they deserve what has happened to them.
I am not condoning what Russia did to the integrity of Georgia, but really Georgia had acted like a proper rogue nation. Nothing new, most rogue nations in the world are US-yesboys anyway (Pakistan, Turkey etc.), it is not accidental.
2.) Now the justification "territorial integrity" in the two Chechen wars may be more credible if Russia respected the territorial integrity of other nations (i,e, Poland, Baltic States, Georgia etc...). As it stands, its a laughable argument and another one in a long row of Russian mass-killings.
Sorry what territorial integrity? What nations? What is their history? What presence had Estonians in Saint Petersburg? They were there in the millions or 10-20 nomad families or something? And why don't they react when Germans or Swedish take their independence? Do they really esteem their independence or it is just that they do not like faces of Russians?
Why don't these nations come out and speak openly, "we lost this, we want it back". Especially Poland. One has to note that Poland does not have the slightest thing to ask from Russia; only from Bielorussia, so let it go to Bielorussia. I do not think Russiand would have a problem to take half Bielorussia and give the western part to Polish. But most Bielorussians would not like it (being incorporated to Poland I mean...). However Minsk was a Russian city, not Polish. We Greeks say clearly: "We lost due to British politics northern Cyprus. We will get it one day. We were genocided in Minor Asia 80 years back and lost all our ancestral lands there after 3000 years presence. We do not wish a war with Turkey what we consider an artificial entity, but if they sneakely attack us again as they plan to do we will fight not only to defend but to get back what is ours". It is crystal clear. What has little Estonia lost to Russia? 1 lake, two fields and 5 horses? Lithuania lost to Russia some ages ago. If they ask it back (while they have no population nowadays there) let Mexico het the 1/4th of the US that has real population there anyway.
Chris you said:
Russia, by the way, is also responsible for many of the calamities in eastern Europe, which gets us back round to the topic of Hungary. If those countries had not been forced to vegetate under the Russian yoke, then they might have developed much quicker, perhaps as quick or quicker than France and Germany. There is an unnatural difference in economic development between eastern and western Europe.
Yes yes yes I do agree with you and add 100 more. BUT you talk of USSR, a regime imposed upon Russians by Zurich, London and New York bankers. Chris, I am not saying this in the air, I am quite knowledgeable on history. USSR victimised Russians 100 times more than Hungarians, Polish or Eastern Germans. 50 million people were murdered and about 75% of them were ethnic Russians you know, not Ukrainians nor Estonians or Latvians...
You say:
Greece, where ubiquitous corruption is the main cause for the country's bankruptcy, is a special case.
Ehehe.. super-special I would say. Thanks to our friends and allies, a nation that was in late 18th, early 19th century destined to become the prime nation of Eastern Mediterranean bringing back the development in the whole region and making again an international epicenter of human development and not of wars, genocide and misery, it ended up being the weak link.
You said:
The once great nations of Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Hungary, Romania, Czech republic and Slovakia (and hypothetically Yugoslavia if that nation hadn't fallen apart) should be as prosperous if not more prosperous than western European nations. Their poverty is still a result of the fact that the Russians took them hostage for 45 years. No wonder some of those nations are fertile breeding grounds for extremist parties.
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N o t Russians. U S S R . Different thing. Russians are not responsible for that. No Russian was every any leader during the establishment of that party. All funds came from western Europe and America.
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By the way, I remind you that this kind of language secures you 4 to 8 yrs of prizon in the Russian Federation. So beware and keep it beyond.
Or, in fact :o))))
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The once great nations of Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Hungary, Romania, Czech republic and Slovakia (and hypothetically Yugoslavia if that nation hadn't fallen apart) should be as prosperous if not more prosperous than western European nations. Their poverty is still a result of the fact that the Russians took them hostage for 45 years. No wonder some of those nations are fertile breeding grounds for extremist parties.
.... Chris you are revealing the truth yourself:
If USSR did what it did, it was largely thanks to the work of Russians, Russians who were chased and genocided.
So just imagining what would Russia be today if USSR had not been established. If say Kerensky's government had been overthrowned by a dictator, and then Russia ruled by some short of Putin of those times.
400 to 500 billion population. A bustling Siberia. Pipelines to western Europe and China since the 1930s, 40s. Hitler not even thinking about approaching Russia at 1000km. And US staying in its little corner, America theirs, Europe and Asia of the Russians.
As simple as that.
Now you know what was the role of communism. Blame not the Russians for what happened - blame their leadership for being so weak as to fall to such a conspiracy...
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Nik, you keep trying to fumble through this non-difference between Soviets and Russians. If Serbs are responsible for crimes they committed in Yugoslavia, call them Serbs, not Yugoslavians. If Germans committed crimes during WW2, call them Germans, not Nazis. If Russians subjugated and mass-murdered people for decades, call them Russians, not Soviets. I am completely against giving nations and regions obscurantist titles and names, especially if the aim is to excuse them from assuming responsibility for their actions.
You're undertaking efforts to present Shakashvili as a "semi-dictator" (he was democratically elected in a state that is/was much freer than the nation that aggressed against Georgia), efforts to paint Georgia as a "rogue nation", efforts to compare Shakashvili with Milosevic, efforts that are erroneous, byzantine and tortuous. Shakashvili's and Georgia's crime was having an army that was much weaker than the internationally detested Russian army.
About September 11th - please try being a serious person. Let's not get into truther-type conspiracy theories.
I am glad you agree with me on the Hungary point, although, as I mentioned before, I am against excusing populations from personal and national responsibility just because they lived in Nazi Germany / Soviet Russia / Yugoslavia in the late 90s...
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and please, power meer, - why you chose to quote what Russian Russians swear about the Chechen Russians?
Why not to quote what all combined here :o)))) I am afraid eh, swear about Americans?
If you are such a specialist in slang. Russian language is "great and powerful, free and mighty" not for nothing :o)
It has vast immense deep resources for all eh spheres of application. For all occasions :o))))) We value a sharp word.
So, how about the Russian slang in relation to the USA?
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PS
We are developing this vocabulary sub-division well.
Have recently incorporated several Serbian expressions :o)))) - VERY popular, in the blogs, and are, :o)))) how to say :o)))) always on alert to pick up a sharp definition, up to the point, from other tongues.
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#117 democracythreat
If you are going to blame America for Israeli actions, then blame the American Zionist lobbies and organizations. There is a difference between the two.
You also (it appears) have swallowed hook, line and sinker the Israeli ( and West Bank settler) wish to equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, so eloquently propagated by the likes of MarcusAurellius and similar contributors.
We should never forget the Nazi murder of Jews, Sinti and Roma and others, but neither should we accept Fascist ideas and deeds of some Eastern Europeans and Israelis.
Ethnic cleansing is wished and practiced by both, but not all of their citizens should be painted with the same brush.
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#131 Chris Camp.
Collective guilt ?
Usually an argument for mass murder !
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Hungary is a relatively small country, It's easier for smaller more extreme parties to do well.
Once the Economy recovers support will diminish rapidly.
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What Russian language is sadly missing :o(, though, is a special chapter on eh Afro-Americans. Or Africans other.
We might have to take a lesson or two at other schools of liberal thought.
Though not sure what for :o)))) - because when you don't have Africans - nil - and never had :o))))) - what can you say about these?
:o)))))))
OK, OK, there might be several foreign students in Patris Lumumba university in Moscow, but the rarity of the dark skin beyond Moscow is such, that, how to say.
I think I saw Africans twice in the subway in St. Petersburg, in my whole life.
And certainly, I am afraid :o(, all looked at them.
With the exception of the Moscow students, we have 4 Afro-Russians :o)))) only.
One is a TV presenter, extraordinary spoiled and with girls hanging on him :o)))))
Two more are ex-Americans in Volgograd ex-Stalingrad! of all places. Who competed for the Mayor of the region position last summer (2009), in elections - cannibilising on each other's success.
I fanned for one, populary called "our Stalingradsky Obama" :o))))))
But surely United Russia candidate won :o(, to the total boo of the locals, who wanted their "Stalingradsky Obama" and seemingly nothing less!
Well. That makes three Afro-Russians in the Federation.
And? I am sure we have 4?
Ah, certainly! Alexandre Pushkin forever, The Sun of The Russian Poetry (official title :o))))),
whose grandad was either from Ethiopia or Somali (not established to this day. both put monuments to him! at home! competing for the status of the motherland of the Russian Poet Glory No 1.)
(I think that's the only monument in Somali.)
anyway whose grandad tsar Peter I bought at a slave market as a boy - and he was the first, and for about a century longer - the only African in Russia.
Popularly called "Arap Petra Velikogo" - "Arab of Peter the Great".
He was not an Arab, but as there was nothing to compare with, Russians decided that that's how "Arabs" look.
His unusual skin colour resulted in immediate promotion, tsar peter sent him to the Navy cadets' school, then he serviced as a officer in the Navy, and by the age of 40 became a full Admiral - one of the first handful.
Top career possible around, so had many a family interested in him, and married also awful well.
Which resulted in us obtaining our poet No 1 of all tiimes and ages, in the due time.
:o)
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#137 webaliceinwonderland
Would you please stop the :0((((((((((((((.
It´s getting on my nerves.
Thank you.
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?
:o(
:o))))? )))
Ok, I will try to be more grave.
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dt;
"The Roma are an interesting case. They test the limits of human rights law in Europe."
Yes but maybe not in the way you intended. Discriminated against to one degree or another in so many countries in Europe they are not permitted let alone encouraged to integrate. They are always seen as the outsiders even from the time they are small children in school. They survive the only way they can, living on the margins of the mainstream. Small wonder they are often prone to fall afoul of the law. They have two strikes against them the moment they get out of bed in the morning. Not only have their human rights been tested to the limit, the denial of their rights have been exceeded and Europe has been found wanting invariably in that regard. And that is typical. Skinheads beat Turks in Germany and the police do nothing. Skinheads beat minorities in Russia and the police do nothing. If you are of North African descent and your name is Mohammed and you live in France, your chances for a good job and career are nil even if you have a PHD. And the story is repeated all over Europe.
Roma live in the US too and they are fully integrated with the rest of society here. A telling difference if ever there was one.
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Web Alice,
In the past you have referred to the fact that the EU would have to change to make it more attractive for Russia to join up.
What changes would you suggest it make?
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nonsense offramp;
"In other words some drunken Frenchman insulted you for being Jewish/Gypsy/American or whatever and you've spent the last 40 years hating everyone and everything European because of it."
No, that is not what happened at all. I was with a group of Americans and Canadians at an industrial trade fair in Bordeaux France. We went to a Rathskeller there for lunch and sober Germans would not serve us because there were Jews in our group. When we complained to the French managers they did nothing. Nobody seemed to be bothered by it. That's just the way it is. 28 years after the end of WWII and they behaved like nothing had ever happened. It makes me sick to think how much money we in America wasted defending them and the rest of Western Europe from the USSR. When WWII was over, America should just have walked away and left Europe to its own devices. It has come down to that anyway 65 years later.
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malefactor;
"Marcus, hatred of Isreal does not equal hatred of the Jews anymore than your dislike for Iran equals a hatred of "Muslims"."
There are 10,000 defamatory postings on BBC blog sites about Israel for every posting about the genocide Arab Sudanese have been committing against Black Sudanese every day for years. Over 300,000 black Sudanese murdered and over 2,500,000 drive from their homes in what the Congress of the United States calls genocide and you hardly hear about it from Europeans, including here on BBC yet all you hear about is Israel this and Israel that. Why? If it smells like antisemitism, looks like antisemitism, sounds like antisemitism, IT IS ANTISEMITISM!
If a European ever told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about Europe, America, or Israel, I think I would go into cardiac arrest from the shock of hearing it. No risk of that though. I've yet to meet a European who ever told me the truth.
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142 MAII - thats quite a story. If its true, I'd be outrageous and modern-day, mainstream Germans would unanimously condemn it...
I'm sorry if this made you hate Europe. Its still not a good reason but it explains certain of your statements..
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Islandhopper1,
I think all changes should be on our side. So that we become morally :o)))) oj sorry
morally, physically, how to say, and otherwise prepared. and fit. to meet more trouble :o)))))))))))))))))
Seriously, I haven't thought in that direction, have no ready answers.
Only the first impulsive gut feeling above :o)))
We were so much reprimanded for wanting something in Europe that basically stopped thinking in your direction. Like no-no a mental block :o)
Can't overcome. So much at once.
And I have so small head :o); many thoughts don't squeese into it, at once. Only one after another, and I can't control the order of appearance.
May be something will down on me, suddenly - I promise I'll tell you.
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Mariana Trench;
"I am quite happy with my name, thank you very much."
What's the matter, don't you like the nickname I gave you? Too deep for ya? That's the rules around here, it's allowed. I wasn't the first but after the nicknames others gave me, it's clear that the culture on BBC blogs. Love it or leave it.
"I have a friend, who is of an American origin (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents...etc), and he is of a totally different opinion."
Contrary to popular belief in Europe, not all Americans think alike on all issues. How inconvenient that must be to those who find stereotyping people according to what category they are put into a way of life. Just goes to show you, you can't trust anyone.
"Could you explain why should I rather accept yours? How about illustrating your ideas with facts, because we have not heard anything else but reiteration of the same old mantra over and over again. It's not a real argument."
Frankly I don't give a damn what you believe. I am experessing a point of view you don't often hear especially from Americans. I think for most Americans when they bother to talk to Europeans at all, they try to be polite. I gave up on that inhibition a long time ago. I have no hesitation to let it all hang out and tell it like it is no matter whom it offends.
"Ooh, is it so? And in your ways,when was it "invented" and by whom? And how is it related to the racism in Europe?"
In the last 500 years, hundreds of millions of people fled Europe for America including all of my grandparents. Why do you think they fled? Many of them fled persecution....starting with the Pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower. America is a nation of outcasts and their descendants. Just think of the US today as their revenge generations later. If there is a heaven and they can see what is happening, I'm sure it must gladden their souls to see how things are really turning out, not how Europeans fantasize or imagine they are. Hey, while your at it, how about making another contribution to Greece's debt repayment or maybe helping build one more road or bridge in Hungary.
"In fact, whom do you consider an American?"
It's not what I consider Mariana, it's what the law considers. Anyone born on the territory of the United States or who comes to the United States, meets the requirements for citizenship, applies for citizenship, and takes the oath of citizenship is an American citizen, period.
"Then why did you find it important to mention it? What did you want to say with that?"
Because unlike Europeans, I don't care where my ancestors came from. I am me, here and now. I was born here, I am of here, and what happened to dead people over a hundred years ago doesn't add up to a row of beans in my life. Not so for people who hold grudges going back many hundreds of years. Why do the Northern Irelanders fight each other for example? Because that is Europe's way. If it wasn't their religion, they'd find another reason to kill each other. They always do.
"These are just the childhood diseases of a young country,though the antagonism the Slovaks feel towards Hungarians has been obviously going on since the abolishment of Matica slovenská, which was a stupid mistake made by the Hungarian government."
These people have lived among each other for a thosand years. When does childhood end and they grow up and act like responsible adults? If it hasn't happened yet, it likely never will.
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You've got so much administration. I mean, regulated so very well. Real scary. Step to the left, step to the right :o)) - shoot out on the spot.
People seem to me depressed with it.
May be it only seems to me. And you are used to, don't notice.
Who would want to be more regulated, I mean, by own accord?
Surely a merger will bring that to Russia.
There are attractive things for us, as well. You manage your governemnts better (even that it seems to you you don't have handles). At least, your governments have a vague idea, in general, that people might exercise some power over them.
While with our we simply live in two parallel universies.
I will think.
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Gheryando, don't you see. MA eh dislikes Europe because he likes the USA. He wrote the sense in the USA is casting off dust of Europe from the feet. Now, if you don't have any dust to shook off - how can the US be good by itself? :o)
It's a contra-punkt? the idea is built on the contradiction. opposition. comparison.
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G #144;
That was just the tip of the iceberg. Illustrative of a point. Look at how Europeans treat each other even in the same country. Just look for example how Brits treat their own prime minister at PMQT. They won't even give him a chance to speak. He has to shout over a large number of them just to be heard. I don't know why he bothers to answer at all or even comes to try.
Compare that with proceedings of any meeting in Congress in the US. One peep out of order and the gavel comes down. A second one and the sargeant at arms is directed to clear the disturbance from the room. If they did that at PMQT, the prime minister and the speaker of the house would be the only ones left in the room.
These are just examples of the lack of respect people have for others in Europe, lack of their personal dignity, and ultimately lack of respect they have for themselves. And if they don't respect themselves, why should I respect them? Who knows them better than they do?
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WA;
"Gheryando, don't you see. MA eh dislikes Europe because he likes the USA."
No WA, MA dislikes Europe because he dislikes Europe. Europeans have spent my lifetime showing me over and over again that it is no good. I'm convinced.
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Well, Congress example, of course, impressive.
Well, David is polite.
That's two polite of them.
So, all the rest, walk around, full of respect? Internal respect :o), deeply grounded, deeply profoundly :o)
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May be.
That's why! you charge so much, for the proverbial :o) McDonald's spilled hot coffee onto someone, things. Value of human life and health allowing.
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In relation to the above, try not to paint everyone with the same brush.
I live in the South of the US and periodally encounter reverse racism in the culture here. I sense when its happening, know why its happening, think its unfortunate but DO NOT go around hating people as a result.
Get out and travel Marcus, it does broaden the mind.
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IHOP, I've traveled to over 40 countries, traveled to over 20 states, lived in five of them and in one foreign country. How many have you visited and lived in?
Here's the most recent and last episode of the PMQT comedy show before Parliament is adjourned for the election. It is rather quiet and serene by their normal standards. Enjoy it. :-)
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2010/04/07/HP/A/31496/British+House+of+Commons+Prime+Ministers+Questions.aspx
If the link breaks, copy this and paste it in after www.
c-span.org/Watch/Media/2010/04/07/HP/A/31496/British+House+of+Commons+Prime+Ministers+Questions.aspx
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Marcus: regarding 142
How do you tell a Jew is a Jew just by appearances? Did these people you intended to have lunch with have a sign or badge or what?
If a Jewish person converts to Christianity are they still Jews. How could Sammy Davis Jr. have been Jewish? Can an Arab be Israeli? I am so confused!
Mariana Trench........now that is deep. Also a turkey shoot I think.
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Alice the Ruskie:
I have the perfect solution for transportation for Russia if you are unable to get a hold of Scotty. Fold space. Since Russians are the pioneers of space exploration this would be a natural.
Probably the first attempt would include Vodka related solution. The scientific community will most likely be sceptical and most importantly you wouldn't be able to get a patent on it. That route has been tried many times. I folded a car around a tree once through the use of what we call in the south "moon shine"
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@ 142 - This is hiarious. I am convinced now that MarcusAureliusII has never spent even so much as a second in Europe. At any rate, his account of a "first-hand experience" in France, as described in 142, is made up of whole cloth. Who can spot the two slip-ups that give him away in that post? Winners will get a life-time supply of free beer from any "anti-semitic" "rathskeller" in Bordeaux of your choice.
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@MAII,
what is racism?
- Refusing to serve someone because of their race
- Denying opportunities to someone because of their race
- Punishing someone because of their race
Now accusing someone of racism and anti-semitism because they disagree with the policies the Israeli government is ridiculous loosing its meaning. In that case most of the people here in this blog are racists anti-english because they don't agree with the policies of our government.
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In spite of its use by several on this strand, "antisemites" should be against BOTH Jews and arabs, as arabs are also semites.
Also, quite interesting that a conversation originally about election results in Hungary that led to concerns about election of a party possibly intolerant (of other than Magyar peoples) has devolved to lengthy discussions of MA II and whether his (hers?) opinions correspond to facts about either the USA or Europe. Fascinating, as Spock would say!
TeaPot562
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Gavin,
I think what is going now in Hungary has already happened in Bulgaria. The political party “Ataka”, presided over by Mr.Sideroff Volen, was believed first to belong to the extreme right by preaching anti Roma and anti Turkish slogans /In Bulgaria there is a Muslim minority of some 6-7 %/. What happened later however, proved that the said party /now in power/ turned to be a political entity which targeted above all the corruption among the high ranked government officials of the previous coalition and, consequently all its actions improved the image of “Ataka” and that of its leader, Mr.Sideroff…
What I would allow myself to ask you is why did you miss the chance of covering the air crash in Smolensk and the consequent political echo all over the old Continent? You inherited the post and the audience of Mark Mardell and being a professional journalist of one of the leading agencies you should have immediately commented what did happened in Russia on Apr. 10th and what eventually would happen later in the old continent. Poland was historically in the hearth of all our troubles here. If the tensions between Warsaw and Moscow really ease, that may change totally all the political climate in Europe for good.
I still wonder why did you miss the opportunity to consult your entire “congregation”. But, better late than never. If I were you, I would fly immediately to Krakow in order to speak with the local people, with the guests who would come from Moscow, from London, from Washington, from Paris, from Berlin, etc. It seems that the future of Europe will be discussed there, I mean by the walls of the cathedral where the kings of Poland are buried… and where the Polish presidental couple will join them for ever.
Just clean the desk and go…
Sofia, Apr. 15th 2010
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#142
I thank you for being honest Marcus. You hate all Europeans and all of Europe because of one incident with one small group of people 40 years ago. I wasnt far off with what i said originally was I?
"I've traveled to over 40 countries, traveled to over 20 states, lived in five of them and in one foreign country. How many have you visited and lived in?"
They say travel broadens the mind, clearly not. Didnt you admit you'd never been back to Europe in 40 years? Seeing as we are the brunt of your hatred then your non-European travel experience is irrelevant. Someone with your alleged experience wouldnt hold your prejudices nor would they try to continually play around with peoples nicknames.."nonsense offramp"? Are you 12?
Perhaps next time you rush to defend us from the USSR you could turn up on time? I fear 3 years of hand wringing might be too late for WW3.
#146
"Contrary to popular belief in Europe, not all Americans think alike on all issues"
Oh the irony, coming from the one who stereotypes 500 million people from 27 distinct nations because of a couple of racists 40 years ago. By the way, if that actually happened, its disgusting. So is your reaction to all of us because of it.
"I am experessing a point of view you don't often hear especially from Americans"
The reason for that is, fortunately, most Americans dont hold you views. The ones I've met have been forthright yet charming and polite. They understand the difference between patriotism and nationalistic xenophobia. They, without exception, loved living,working and raising families in Europe. That didnt diminish their love for the US one iota.
"Because unlike Europeans, I don't care where my ancestors came from"
You seem to have mentioned your ancestry on quite a few occasions for someone who doesnt care about it. In fact I think you claimed ancestry from more sources than seems possible for one man. I've never met a European yet who cares about "ancestors". What century do you live in? Oh, I forgot, you live in the 18th Century dont you Mr Washington..you two-faced,opportunistic,slave-owning British Army officer you.
"Why do the Northern Irelanders fight each other for example"
Theres no such thing as a Northern Irelander Mr World Traveller.
"I have no hesitation to let it all hang out and tell it like it is no matter whom it offends"
Yeah, on the internet. Last time you got offended face to face you left the continent and never went back.
# several
You seem to have an obsession with PMQ's. If you want a democracy where everyone sits politely and is too scared to show passion or dissension then you are welcome to it.
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@ 161 Commonsense Express
""I have no hesitation to let it all hang out and tell it like it is no matter whom it offends"
Yeah, on the internet. Last time you got offended face to face you left the continent and never went back."
This made me laugh :-D .
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@Marcus no response to my post at 96 ?
Your description of the incident in France is certainly not a 'shining' moment for european's but perhaps 10 people were involved in that? Does it not seem overkill to condemm so many millions based on the actions of a small small few??
With regards to PMQT in the UK. Yes this is a circus show that highlights the playground mentality of alot of our MP's but once again your making sweeping judgments on millions of people based on a few personal experiences and what you've seen on the telly. For any rational person (which in other posts you show yourself to be!!) does this not seem like a lapse of reason?
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Gavin Hewitt obviously wrote this on order... It is sad for the BBC.
Because if he ever heard from the population who having large number of children for the family support benefits, or the metalcollectors, or the peasants who are unable to harvest their fruits because someone else always steal it the night before, or the businesses of Joav Blum, the attacks against the National bank by George Soros, or Perez's remark of buying up Hungary, maybe... Maybe he would had write a little more balanced report...
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There will always be nutters and weiredoe's in every contry if their aloud the oxigen of publicity -- evryone should just chillax peace out and let them crawl back under there rok
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nonsense offramp;
"You hate all Europeans and all of Europe because of one incident with one small group of people 40 years ago."
I made it clear that the incident at Le Lac in the spring of 1973 was but one of a very large number of pieces of evidence that form a tapestry with a clear and consistent pattern that reflects what Europe and Europeans have in common. How deserving they are of each other, like cats in a bag with the opening sewn closed. They are condemned to live with each other not merely in close physical proximity as in the past but economically and politically too. Turkey would do well to stay out of it and simply form bilateral trade arrangements with its members instead. That way it can retain its sovereignty over itself and for better or worse decide its own fate. No Euro, no EU Constitution, no Byzantine intrigues that would steal its self rule. How lucky they are to have escaped.
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Instead of discussions of the election result in Hungary the main part of 166 of the contributions here is concerned with an American, which has no insight in Europe and lies about his own country, and a Russian that seldom is interested in the blog article.
The topic here is the right wing radicals and what can be done to avoid more influence and hatred from this wing....
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Smart Alec;
I didn't think your comment was worthy of reply especially as it was getting late and I'd commented on so many others.
"YOu claimed in an earlier post that racism hasn't really been an issue in the last 40 or so years. And yet you have had in the US, the KKK in the deep south, the rodney king incident and many other cases of police rasicm (which whilst on the decline is still a present factor) Try taking a look at judges sentencing in comparable cases between white and black/ hispanic people? A clear trend shows that these groups are given consistently longer sentances.
Compare the average wage for these groups in america and it is the norm to find that once again people of these ethnicities are usually paid less."
I didn't say that at all. A lot of things other people have said I posted were not what I actually posted at all. Some can't seem to read and comprehend what I said, others seem to deliberately distort it.
What I said is that racism has been diminishing and will continue to diminish until it is all but gone. This was obvious to anyone who lived in America these last 50 years and remembers what happened, how it was, how it is today. Racism still does exist but examples of it are fewer and further between. This is the result of many factors including a very powerful change in America's culture and a change in its demography. It might interest you to know that the most racist people in the North during the Civil War were recent Irish immigrants who rioted in New York City because they were competing against recently arriving black ex-slaves who escaped the South for unskilled jobs. Racism is a vestige of the legacy of European culture that was brought here, the slave economy of the south they created around cotton, the Civil War that destroyed that economy, the period known as recconstruction of the South, and the political corruption in Northern Cities where large numbers of blacks were encouraged to come to swell the ranks of voters who invariably voted Democratic. It's taken a long time for this problem to be addressed and dealt with both legally and by a shift in the cultural paradigm but it has happened. In Europe by contrast, nothing has changed, Hungary being one of many examples where ancient hatreds still thrive.
"You talk as if America is free of corruption or inequality ?! It isn't.
Big business loves America for one reason only- it gets constant preferential treatment from all governments whether Republican or Democrat."
"The business of America is Business." I forget which President said that. In socialist Europe the notion of business and profits are dirty words, Europe's culture having disdain for individual enterprise, taxing innovation and its rewards into extinction for the sake of what it thinks of as social justice or social equality. Equality in America only means equality under the law, not equality of income or financial assets. The European concept of equality engineering the redistribution of wealth is an anathema to personal freedom and a guarantee that it will remain poor. Its recent decades of prosperity bought first on the backs of America taxpayers and workers and then on massive government borrowing that is no longer sustainable. It's credit card is maxed out.
"I personally like many things about America but am not so naive as to believe that it is actually "the land of the free""
America is by far the freest country in the world. "Identity cards? We ain't got no stinkin' national identity cards." Our goal is the least government possible. In our culture government is the last place you go to to solve your problems. In Europe it is the first.
"Europe does indeed have its problems and you may feel our government are going in the wrong direction to fix them but ultimately there are millions of Europeans living perfectly decent and normal hate free lives. Sadly there are also millions that have become disillusioned with the constant taxes, scandals, increased work loads for little to no appreciation. It is amongst these communities that racism, fascism are allowed to thrive."
Europe is sounding its death rattle, its absurd incoherent fatally flawed structures finally collapsing. European civilization as we've kown it in our lifetime is for all practical intents and purposes at an end with no happy replacement in sight. As Europe declines to a circumstance comparable to the less developed parts of the world, other nations are on the ascent. How can Europe afford a lavish social safety net nobody else in the world can possibly match with the possible exception of Japan? The answer is that it can't. But to even suggest that it be pared back let alone abandoned is political suicide for anyone suggesting it.
"You claim that posters on these blogs that are critical of Israel show a European trend of anti semitism. Well whilst some of them undoubtedly do plenty of others offer reasoned criticism for why Israel should change certain things about the way it operates. People the world over are concerned with its foreign policy and concerned with the way the US seems to turn a blind eye to Israels actions and yet will condemm other nations for the exact same actions. Double standards that are only allowed to exist because of Israels strategic importance to the US in the middle east. Using reason to criticise a goverment (regardless of its country of origin) is NOT any form of racism. It is the using of rational argument to discuss the world we live in."
That criticism of Israel by Europeans and some on the American left is single handed ignoring the history of the Jewish people, the fact that it exists as the only reliable refuge from the thousand year slaughter they experienced in Europe, the history of state of Israel, the perpetual wars to destroy it, the perpetual state of siege it is under, and the indifference to far worse crimes being committed all over the world from Burma and North Korea to Darfur and Ruwanda. This focus on Israel proves that hatred for Jews by Europeans remains undiminished ranging from wishing it would somehow disappear to actively supportig those trying to make it disappear. One reason Europe hates America is that America supports Israel and will not let it disappear, President Obama not withstanding.
"As a last point i also find it ironic that you decry so much those that hate any one "other" than their own group. As you point out America has many groups that make up its composition but once in America you become American, hence a group. You sure do seem to hate anyone outside of your group don't you?? Does this not seem to be a rather obvious double standard ??"
I don't know what you are talking about. I don't hate and have never expressed hatred for China, India, Japan, Africa, Latin America. But the they don't express that same high and mighty air of superiority that Europeans do, they don't sell themselves as a paradigm of what the world should copy. America was created as it was for a reason. It was invented as an anti-Europe, a rejection of most of the very most basic notions European civilization exists on...and it still is.
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Hey Smart Alec, you don't like the death penalty in America because you think it is barbaric? How about this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8622084.stm
Isreal doesn't have a death penalty. Where is YOUR criticism of the Palestinians for this "barbaric" act?
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Re131:
Chris you said:
About September 11th - please try being a serious person. Let's not get into truther-type conspiracy theories.
The main cospiracy theory on 911 says that airplanes fell on the twin towers and these fell. It is not even a good cospiracy theory. It is a roughly summed bad edition. Skyscrapers DO NOT fall easily when airplanes fall on them and get caught in the fire and if they fall they DO NOT fall in a free fall. Free fall = controlled demolition. Please I am an engineer (not a civil one but I did do stress analysis & dynamics back in my undergraduate final year specialisation, thank you very much) and I have to respect my field. Ask any civil engineer to enlighten you on the subject. I rest the case there.
You said:
Nik, you keep trying to fumble through this non-difference between Soviets and Russians. If Serbs are responsible for crimes they committed in Yugoslavia, call them Serbs, not Yugoslavians. If Germans committed crimes during WW2, call them Germans, not Nazis. If Russians subjugated and mass-murdered people for decades, call them Russians, not Soviets. I am completely against giving nations and regions obscurantist titles and names, especially if the aim is to excuse them from assuming responsibility for their actions.
I say:
Chris, I am not against your basic idea. 80% of Germans were just happy with Hitler and not only they complied but they really rallied. When Hitler was gathering all these people, they were not forced physically to be there, nor did they fear for their lifes, it was their choice.
However the case of USSR is different, it is just you that you refuse to see that. Tell me 1 Russian leader among Bolsheviks. 1. A major one, not lieutenants or something. Tell me 1 Russian that financed the huge propaganda game that was going on in Russia for some 20 years prior to the Bolshevik revolution. I tell you that money came from the west and Bolshevik (all non-Russian) leaders crosses Europe on a German from Zurich up to the borders of Russia to enter with all the money they had secured from international bankers. Conspiracy? Of course! Imagine revolutionaires using the train paid by the secret services of the country that is in war with the country to make the revolution while them all being not even of the same ethnic background as the main ethnicity of the country. It was THE conspiracy. It makes the 911 conspiracy a joke, it is a joke anyway on its own right. I am sorry, that is how politics move around. Search it more.
Now, did Russians rally behind the Bolsheviks? Well truth is that back then the majority of Russians were opposed to Bolsheviks as soon as they heard about abolition of private property and religion. However, among the landless poor masses there were followers. People that did not read a lot, could not know a lot, could not understand a lot - these people were told lies, that it is a patriotic revolution for the people to kick down the treacherous tcharist regime that brought down the power of Russia. These people thought they were revolting to get hold of their country. They were told less stories about religion, proletariat and more stories about them being poor getting richer and establishing a name in society. Stories about communism, abolition of religion, abolition of private property came later, but it was too late to react. Actually more and more people had joined the Bolsheviks when the White army arrived to save the Tzar which woke up among Russians memories of the Crimean war. I remember my grandfather was 20 years old serving in the Greek army in 1917 and soon found himself in the detachment that was sent as part of the "White army" in Russia. They were following a British unit the British (since British dragged Greeks as allies along with them). In a battle they were encircled and were caught prisoners (Greeks of course did not give any fight as it was not their war anyway). Russians were just too happy to learn they had imprisoned British. They started beating them, raping them, starving them to near-death and executing them often in quite horrible ways (understandable, they deserved it anyway for having accepted to take part in such an invasion in a foreign country - their choice, the got what they searched for...). Then they found out that there were Greeks among them. They immediately separated them from the British prisoners and let them stay freely inside among Russian soldiers - and they had some good times together. Reason? No propaganda, no wish to endoctrinate Greeks as communists, nothing like that. Greeks were simply orthodox people, not catholic/protestant "crusaders" (!) and thus they were friends! There were a couple of religious people that knew a but of Greek and that is how they communicated. They had told my grandparent that they were not their prisoners but their guests!!! So my grandfather passed his time as a guest until the end of the campaign where they were sent back to Greece. Imagine. These were the communist Russians. Very communist approach!
So on the one hand the majority of Russians were anti-bolsheivks or neutral but then even the vast majority of Bolsheviks were simple people that knew nothing of what was communism all about but where there either to seek a better place under the sun, or to even defend their country against the "crusaders" and the internal traitors. Proper manipulation.
However from there on when Bolsheviks took power in the 1920s for good and when Stalin prevailed, people were overwhelmingly against. Do you think that Stalin would go on kill 50 million people out of which the 75% were ethnic Russians, not anything else just for fun? No, he killed these people cos they were opposed and would not play his game.
So how many millions of Germans did Hitler kill?
Eh! You understand that USSR was a regime. It was NOT Russia. It retained Russia down, it killed Russia and it dismembered Russia. A Russian would had never killed 40 million Russians, create Ukraine giving Russian lands, create Kazakstan giving Russian lands, creating Bielorussia giving Russian land and so on. USSR was a regime. You just cannot hold responsible Russians on that. They were simply not.
You said:
Nontheless, you're undertaking efforts to present Shakashvili as a "semi-dictator" (he was democratically elected in a state that is/was much freer than the nation that aggressed against Georgia), efforts to paint Georgia as a "rogue nation", efforts to compare Shakashvili with Milosevic, efforts that are erroneous, byzantine and tortuous. Shakashvili's and Georgia's crime was having an army that was much weaker than the internationally detested Russian army.
Eeeee I am sorry, but Milosevic had sent 0 soldiers and 0 arms in Bosnia or Croatia. It was the Serbians of Croatia and the Serbians of Bosnia acting on their own. Milosevic was backing up politically only. In case of Kosovo, Milosevic was forced to send the army when Albanian guerillas used anti-airplane Stinger missiles (given by Margaret to her personal friend warlord Thatchi...) agains the Jugoslav airforce all that while re-commencing their murderous struggle against the state. It was the logival reaction to any state. Saakasvili sent proper army to start massacring civilians in Ossetia and Abkhasia out of the blue and while Ossetians and Abkhasians had not provoked the Georgians being content with their autonomous status. Ossetians and Abkasians had not attacked any Georgian forces like Albanian were doing. There is huge difference.
Milosvic indeed had prolonged his rule but he did it on the basis of national emergency, something that is standard case on all democratic societies, unless you think that any country would hold elections on these circumstances (one country that did so was Greece in 1920...). One may say that Milosevic did exploit the circumstances to remain in the power. Maybe. But there were a lot of his moves that do not classify him as a dictator. He was just a bad and quite corrupt politician that wanted to remain on power as much as possible - no matter what he tought himself, he was the worst representative for Yugoslavia/Serbia. Saakasvili was elected democratically (as much as you can call that democracy) but then many of his actions resemble more those of a totalitarian regime. His Georgia-for-Georgians only is the minimum. He treid to ethnically cleanse the 30% of the population of the country with violent military measures.
I wonder how on earth you cannot make the link between Kosovo and Abkhasia-Ossetia Chris when the truth is that Kosovars in fact have much less moral ground than Ossetians and Abkhasians who down to the basics did not terrorise, did not rob and did not rape selectively the Georgians ethnic people so as to clear them out from these regions (like Kosovars were doing in the 1960s, 70s and 80s) but on the contrary they were threatened by Georgians openly since the late 80s early 90s.
At some point you have to stick to the key points Chris.
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#168
"America is by far the freest country in the world"
I should charge you for a new monitor, what with the tea i just sprayed all over it! My hernias feeling worse now too!
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Mathiasen @167.
"with an American, which has no insight in Europe and lies about his own country, and a Russian that seldom is interested in the blog article.
The topic here is the right wing radicals and what can be done to avoid more influence and hatred from this wing...."
Mathiasen,
I AM in terested in the right wing radicals and what to do with them.
It is beyond my ? intentions, that whatever the blog article name - there always materialises out of Europe some Chris Camp, who can't comment on ANY thing, without involving Russia, its present past and future and "terminal decline stage".
At which point I say a couple of words :o).
Then I am invariably told how nice is the USA compared to Russia, and that we should look up to them.
At which point I say couple of nice words about the USA. :o)
At which point materialises Mavrelius, naturally, - and there starts a common ? Monmorancy dog fight. I mean that terrier, from Three Men in a Boat, left unattended by some shop doors, in the pack of a company of other street dogs.
From which point on Mr Hewitt can only observe how his blog is getting out of hand and rolling in un-know direction worldwide :o)), helpless :o)))) - until things quiet down, and all become sensible again.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Lets get it right, a thousand years ago europe was festering in the dark ages of ritual sacrifices and savagery, and nothign has changed since then, they are animals and have not learnt a single thing since they slaughtered millions of jews and romas, infact based on the number of War re-enactments where britsih men and women dress up like hitler and watch Nick Griffin try not to be racist outloud, just shows how the fallen in normandy are just really manure, this country and the rest of europe should be ashamed, and all those going to the polls to bring in a nazi sym[pathiser should never go on about immigration because those migrants are more british than the BNP, KKK, Combat 18, EDL, supporters who need to be exported to Austria with their mates! no place in the UK for them as they are the next big terror threat!
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There was a tv programme on which gave a number of british unemployed the chance to do the work of a migrant, so after turnng up late and wanting to start a fight everytime they were asked to do something, we came to the conclusion its not they wnat to work or there is a lack of jobs its the fact most europeans are unemployable due to lack of social skills and mental failings! if a kid born in a village in india can speak better english and have better manners then you really need to think hwat is it we are teaching white kids, oh right i forgot, too busy teaching them how to binge drink and be used as a tool in divorce, claim benefits? and finally blame everything or the dark guy! three lions long ago turned into three sloths sitting up a tree drinking with bad teeth!!
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@ 167 Mathiasen
You are right, though I often commented what WA posted here. /I have much sympathie for that girl who comes from the sity on the Neva, where I have passed several years/
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8620240.stm
Greek nationalism at its best!
Swedish are lucky to have been asked to pay only 6 million euros. I would had asked for at least 30 million euros.
Good for them, let them pay for not respecting people.
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@ 175 D
I can't let the teeth thing go, recent studies show that the British have some of the best teeth in the world, and a Brit invented the toothbrush.
I don't care about the rest of the rubbish you posted...
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Alice from Wonderland [read: USSR bis]
"By the way, I remind you that this kind of language secures you 4 to 8 yrs of prizon in the Russian Federation. So beware and keep it beyond."
Fortunately, comrade Alice, your and your ilk are in in no position to threaten any poster, let alone any citizen of any country (well, perhaps with an exception of Georgia) with anything.
Unless you want to lose access to you favorite site.
[No, BBC does not equal FSB]
Now, which is it going to be?
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Nik, your arguments suffer from two terminal weaknesses.
First, you are prone to believing in conspiracy theories. You have shown yourself to be a 9/11 truther and you said that the Bolsheviks were funded by bankers in Britain, Switzerland and New York. I do not take any stock in such nonsense, I am sorry.
Second, your arguments are prosumptuous. To take just one example out of many, many, many examples I could take, you make the claim that 80 percent of all Germans supported Hitler and none of them were forced to. The second part of the caim simply betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the inner workings of the third reich, which was a terror regime. The first part (80 percent) should have been backed up. Then your next presumptuous point is that there were no rallies in the Soviet Union.
The fact of the matter is that, at the end of the day, people like Stalin and Hitler were able to run entire societies because there were enough people willing to support them. I do not need to invent any figures or percentages to come to this obvious conclusion. And you should not feel the need to do that, either.
Second, you falsify history where the simple facts do not seem to match your multi-polar world, where the Eurasian platter is dominated by Russia. I am sorry, but I am one of many millions in Europe who do not wish to live under the Russian yoke. "Would not like to live under the Russian yoke AGAIN", many people in eastern Europe would add.
I have dealt with your falsifications of the lead-up to the Kosovo independence before. The NATO intervention in Kosovo and the Russian aggression against Georgia are not comparable, no matter how many times to try to falsify history. There were no "genocides" against Serbs in Kosovo and there were no "genocides" against Ossetians and Abkhazians in Georgia. I remain an opponent to the war against Yugoslavia, but I am also firmly against any moves toward demonising NATO, whose intention in the Balkans was fundamentally benign and not self-serving (what did the west gain by stopping Serbia from ethnically cleansing Kosovo?), wherease Russia's aggression against Georgia was manifestly imperialist and irredentist in its nature.
I am beginning to understand why you are so desperate to wrap something pretty around Russia. It is this old "Byzantine of the North" myth- essentially a metastasis of your Greek "continuity" fad. It is this idea that led you to the hilarious judgement that the delapidated wasteland east of the Ukraine was "more civilised" than Poland and Germany. Well, I do not want to burst your bubble, but the majority of Europeans aren't interested in a Byzantine re-awakening. Instead, the Russian subjugation of Eastern Europe is all too fresh in everyone's memory.
Now can we stay with the topic for just two minutes (Hungary)? I still do not understand this fake indignation each time one small country in Europe votes a party of nationalistic demagogues into parliament. It does not make any sense. The same thing happened in Denmark at one point, in Italy(!), in Austria (!!), in Switzerland, in the Netherlands, in France, in local German parliaments (!!!). In addition, you have the out-and-out dictatorship in Belarus and the sham democracy in Russia. There are a few things in Europe to be very indignant about with some justification. But why Hungary of all countries?
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#174 #175
I'd love to know what #173 was moderated for if those two posts got through O.o
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"America is by far the freest country in the world"
I guess that's why it has a prison population of over 2 million - some say it's the highest ever from any country in human history. Well done.
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British DO have very bad teeth. My friend is studying medicine in Germany and was just posted in the UK for 6 months and was shocked at, well, British teeth..
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"Roma just do not want to integrate. It is their human right to do so and one has to respect it. Even if it includes details such as refusing to send their kids to school. One has to respect that."
Definiatly no reason to respect that, total misunderstanding. That's not some 'little detail' that's one of the most basic funcionts of living within a society's framework, and at the very basic level society defines criminality as behaviour coming from not_accepting society's rules. Criminality doesn't only start to happen when you have a gun pointed at your face, don't be so narrow sighted.
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"We went to a Rathskeller there for lunch and sober Germans would not serve us because there were Jews in our group. When we complained to the French managers they did nothing."
Sure, and everyone here should just plain give credit that silly little story? My best bet is that you were (as here) an always-the-pain-in-the-*ss type of guy so they tried ignoring you to stay out of trouble, that's all : ))
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rRe167: Hahahaha I found hilarious the way you say things. Indeed Marcus caricatures himself in praising his country and belittling Europe. I am a patriot myself but I won't just jump out and say Greece is the best in everything and other such, one has to pinpoint the strong points and the weak and do the analysis. I might be harsh on my critiscism on US and might fall lightly on Russians for example but that is not because I love the one and hate the other, I simply respond to, say, Chris' critiscism by dragging the rope a lot to the other side to show to him the other perspective. However, I won't do a moral critiscism on US (or Russia or anyone...), I just note the funny ironies (e.g. Kosovo vs. Abkhasia & Ossetia etc.) and how people are ready so blatantly to call black black and black white according to their own likes and dislikes.
And since I am not here to do moral lessons, I will be the last to fall on Hungarians voting for extra right. I am sorry. It is the rule of the majority. If they want it that way you have to respect it no matter if you do not like it, unless Hungarians are not up to any violent pongroms - and Hungarians are very civilised people with an old history including being the second or first nation to lead the Renaissance along with Italians (Hungarian aristocrats like Italians had intermarried with Comnenian Byzantines and they had done an opening in the world however unlike Italians they were restricted by their lack of sea access).
There is nothing to say to Hungarians if they want to revise what has happened with their stock market and banking sector in relation to the doings of Hungarian-Jewish George Soros. And none can complain to them for wanting to contain Roma criminality. Anyone that is against such, should be forced to go there live and have his field wrecked, his house stolen and his electricity out (cos they steal the copper wires for... recycling!!! They do it sometimes in Greece too and it costs us millions...).
What is wrong though - and I would suggest to Hungarians to avoid it - is to hang around labels and people. Ok, Soros is Jewish but then he plays for himself and for the accounts of some members of his circle, not for hte accounts of Hungarian Jewish of your local synagogue (who most probably have also lost due to his games...). Ok, Roma are indeed naughty but they are not uncurably bad people, they just do what they do when they find lack of control due to their freestyle lifestyle. They just need a bit of a framework there. That is all. No panic, no big words, no labels and no big discussion for nothing.
Anything else is just used effectively against Hungarians since it delays them from being occupied with their main issue of reinforcing their country.
PS: To show how respectable people are Hungarians one need to pinpoint their behaviour during the Jugoslav wars. In Voivodina there is a sizeable Hungarian community and they have a quite strong standing, yet they never exploited the international as-if indignation against Serbians to move forward their case, sticking to simply talking their whatever issues with Serbians. Hats off to them. And to Serbians. When people are civilised they find their way out.
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Re: blood bath ordered in the aftermath of the Hungarian Uprising of 1956 ordered by the later KGB chief and Secretary General of the Soviet Communist Party, Yuri Andropov.
I'm curious what posters from Russia have to say about that today?
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"Discriminated against to one degree or another in so many countries in Europe they are not permitted let alone encouraged to integrate."
You are wellcome to explain how the roma are being discriminated against in Hungary, by the law, the legal system, or any of the unusual pressure society forces upon them. Be as factual as possible if i may ask you, it would be even better if you recited some actual real-life examples, thank you in advance.
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I live in Hungary at the moment. I am from the UK originally. The rise and rise of Jobbik is very disturbing. I find the attitude of many (even highly educated) Hungarians to the Roma (one of Jobbik's key targets) very worrying. There does not seem to be a way out of this situation. A change of attitudes on all sides will take a long time. This is assuming that there is a will there- certainly lacking at the moment. I can only see the situation getting worse here.
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Re180: Chris, I will let it to you to search for yourself. I will only note that I respect my intelligence too much to let myself accept
1) ...buildings free-falling on airplane explosions.
I am sorry. I am an engineer. That thing of free-falling buildings simply does not exist. I have to respect my own field of knowledge let alone the overall scientific field. The whole issue is something extremely obvious. No politician can concince me that black is white and white is black. You may accept as well that the earth is 6000 years old or that it is flat - sorry I can't do anything to convince you.
2) ...believe that Bolsheviks were Russians.
No they were not. None of them. Both ideas and people were "imports" & "imbeds". Thier funding too. If you do not want to see the reality, accept at least the fact that Trotsky and Lenin arrived from Switzerland on a German train back in 1917 while Russians were in war with Germans. If anything, that is a fact that even BCC history channel admits (but funnily passes on the small letters, guess why...). From there on, once you accepted this historic event, everything opens up.
Now, let us put aside the talk about conspiracy and "official truth". You do your search and take your own conclusions.
My arguments were crystal clear:
- Stalin to remain on power killed as many as 50 million people out of which the vast majority were Russians. He decimated the more than 30% of their population! That shows that Russians resisted his regime.
- Hitler, how many Germans did he kill? 500? 1000? 10,000? To reach Stalin's % he should had killed more than 20,000,000 Germans.
That is an argument:
- Hitler was Austrian-born but self-conscious German.
- Stalin was a Georgian with no particular connection to Russians other the fact that Russians were the most populous ethnic group of his vast Empire. Downright he hated Russian nationalism as it opposed his communist ideals. He did everything to kill it. However in WWII he was forced to bring it back (along with religion!) for 2-3 years in the fight against the Germans, then again in 1945 he reburried it.
Even more:
- Hitler was chopping up Cechcoslovakia, Poland and the rest to integrate parts of them into Germany.
- Stalin was chopping up integral parts of Russia giving it to Ukraine, Kazakstan and even in newly created notions such as Bielorussia!
Chris: these are irrefutble facts. There is simply no discussion on them. This argument ends here. 1+1+2. Stalin did not represent Russians. Hitler did represent Germans. There is huge difference between the two of them and even a huge difference in the effort of both nations to re-write history:
- Currently Germans are doing a huge effort to convince themselves that Hitler did not represent them.
- Currently Russians are doing a huge effort to convince themselves that Stalin represent them.
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Re: 154
In response, I have had the good fortune to travel extensively throughout Europe and have lived in several countries there for a while.
I have also been to some of the other continents.
What is important to me wherever I go, is what the people are like, what makes them tick. That can be really enriching!!!
May I suggest the International Hostel scene?
Also if you want to find any more French-hating Jews - go up the road to Quebec.....
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183. At 3:32pm on 15 Apr 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"British DO have very bad teeth. My friend is studying medicine in Germany and was just posted in the UK for 6 months and was shocked at, well, British teeth.."
Don't get me wrong, there often yellowed and crooked, the fundamentals are quite good though. I quite like my teeth, very nicely aligned on the top row. The bottom leaves a bit to be desired though...
Depends where you are in Blighty as well, poorer areas and older people often do have quite bad teeth.
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Now Chris I hope the above satisfy you as an answer let us go to Kosovo and Ossetia and Abkhasia.
I like that you accuse Marcus of being blindly fauthfull to US and belittling Europe when yourself are doing exactly the same only that you do it for countries that have nothing to do with you (Russia and Serbia), it is just that you do not like them thus you will blindly reject anything. At least Marcus says what he says out of his love of his country which, itself, I respect. I do not know what to say about your attitude though.
1st: The term genocide has been ridiculised lately. Genocide is a word that should be referred to the massive murder (i.e. more than several 10,000s) of civilian defenseless populations in order to ethnically cleanse a region or even completely exterminate a nation/religion/any other social group. The first full (and the only successful) genocides of the 20th century were commited by Turks in Minor Asia. The following was commited by Hitler who openly referred to the fact that the genocides in Minor Asia had not been any major problem to anyone...
2nd: The term ethnic cleansing is the systematic expulsion by any means, political, social even violent criminal ones (the latter including the possibility of genocide).
There is a nice remark here: genocide necessarily can only be done successfully by the group that has the upper hand. However, ethnic cleansing can be done by all groups, even the least powerfull ones. A easy way to do ethnic cleansing is for a minority group to get occupied with criminal activities targetted selectively racially against the other group. In the event of the state treating this as civilian criminality, the targetted group remained unprotected thus has no option but to abandon the region. This is social ethnic cleansing and it should be as much condamnable as any other form of ethnic cleansing.
Now Albanians in Kosovo back in the 1960s were the 50% of the population and this only thanx to their doubled birth rates. When Tito (who like Stalin was not fond of Russians) was not fond of Serbians, gave Albanians their autonomy, Albanians translated this as having gained independence. They organised themselves in criminal gangs and these were singlehandedly targetting Serbian civilians. Somehow 95 out of 100 women's rapes had to do with an Albanian man and a Serbian girl. Somehow 90 out of 100 murders had to do with an Albanian murderer and a Serbian victim. Serbian policemen were murdered in their own homes (i.e. not on duty!). Tito suppressed Serbians and forbade any action other than sending more normal type police. By early 80s and after Tito's death the situation was so out of control that even the paramilitary police could not control the gangs. The gang action had managed to force the 80% of Serbian population to flee thus ending up in a 90%-10% division giving the idea that Albanians should somehow own all of Kosovo. By late 1980s and as Jugoslavia was heading for dissolution Serbians feared that Albanians who already treated their autonomy as more independence than being a federal state, would defacto demand their official independence, so Milosevic took out their autonomy and sent more police forces to maintain order. Bad move? Maybe. Milosevic did not calculate the way westerners would manipulate that situation. Was it unethical? No not at all. Autonomy is something given by the state for some reason and can be revoked at any time by a democratic government. It is not up to a minority to unilaterally enforce it. Albanians had proved insufficient in proving they deserved their autonomy having failed to control the gangs - since a massive part of the population was part of them one way or another. Now what was unethical is all what Albanians had done during all these years since the 1960s.
The difference in the case of Serbia is that Georgians even prior to their independence were resenting the presence of other groups within their state. Note that Georgians were a really pampered federal state with officials as high as Stalin himself and Edward Severdnanze (minister of external affairs under Gorby...) as well as a substiantially larger % of high-ranking officials than their actual size and population. So when they got their independence they sought to clear off any population that did not conform to their prescriptions. Mind you, it was not just Ossetians and Abkhasians but also the Armenians in the south who were also forced to play down their presence! However, as Armenians also spoke Georgian and generally were more easy going Georgians proved more relaxed - though note Armenians did not get Georgian passports at the beginning but were rather told ot move on to Armenia in the south (and a number of them did or did remain in Georgia with Armenian passports!!!). However in the case of Abkhasians and Ossetians Georgians proved to be harsh since the begginning. They wanted them out. They held them inside the country as hostages refusing to give them the Georgian citizenship and treating these people as... illegal immigrants!!! Naturally with such a treatment, both of them turned to Russia and asked the Russian citizenship. From there on, despite being called on the table of negotiations Georgians simply refused to have any dialogue prefering to talk with their arms. Still Russia kept on for more than 10 years trying to bring them to their senses. Georgia simply refused asking US to come in and "save" it as if US could do any more than play free-style there. In the meanwhile Ossetians and Abkhasians in the absence of Georgian state (as Georgians refused to speak to them), self-organised and built their proper de-facto states inside. Georgians instead of talking with them to finalise at least to an acceptable framework that would be 2 autonomous regions, with Ossetians and Abkhasians following education in both their languages & Georgian/Russian as second languages something which would be beneficial for Georgians too as the relationship with both the communities would be streamlined as well as with Russia, what did they do? They decided to attack and if possible massacre the people.
There is no question as to what Saakasvili tried to do and even US politicians did not deny it (being mad at his stupid actions that embarassed the US showing that it cannot do anything at all in such a delicate case). He had sent his forces inside Ossetian towns and started firing against civilian people, that was something easily seen in tv videos western journalists showed (let alone the ones Russian journalists showed). Russians responded in 2 hours. They were ready anyway for it since long ago as they had been following the Georgian US-armaments and training and they knew their intentions. Saakasvili really thought that Russians would not step in as quickly but would try once again the dialogue (he anyway refuses). Too bad for him, even worse for Georgians. They did not deserve losing their integrity but then they had to react more to the mad policies of Saakasvili. I pity them.
So how on earth do you claim that NATO bombings against Serbians in Bosnia and Serbia was benigh and Russian intervention in Georgia was irredintist? This is impossible logic Chris. Impossible.
I was in for the maintining of Yugoslavia, a sovereign state. If people wanted to break it up then the pre-WWII national borders had to be respected since the federal states were all artificial and made by chopping Serbian lands. If however the federal states had to get as they were independence then Kosovo had no right to seek independence. However, if Kosovo could seek its independence then so should be able Serbians of Bosnia and Croatia. We are talking about repetitive double standards.
The only demonisation here was that of the Serbs. The Russians were adamant in that: Yugoslavia as a federal state had to be respected, then if really break up was unavoidable at least the integrity of Serbia. Once none of that was respected and Serbians were bombed for doing nothing different than Bosnians or Croatians, the Pandoras box was open and Russians could openly aid Ossetians and Abkhasians, who of course have blatantly much more moral ground than Albanian ethnic cleansers in Kosovo.
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Nik, your conspiracy theories aside, what makes you think that Stalin represented Germany any less than Stalin Russia?
And why don't you answer my main point, the one I made about Hungary?
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"I live in Hungary at the moment. I am from the UK originally. The rise and rise of Jobbik is very disturbing. I find the attitude of many (even highly educated) Hungarians to the Roma (one of Jobbik's key targets) very worrying. There does not seem to be a way out of this situation. A change of attitudes on all sides will take a long time."
you see that's the kind of propanganda speech that people bash demagogue politicians for (hey that's what they blame 'jobbik' for)... the usual recital of fashionable commonplaces, no actual content, just some mild accusation floating in the wind with nothing concrete to back it up... so i beg of you the same thing as the other guy:
Please explain how the roma are being discriminated against in Hungary, by the law, the legal system, or any of the unusual pressure society forces upon them. Be as factual as possible if i may ask you, it would be even better if you recited some actual real-life examples, thank you in advance.
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ovivxe wrote:
"America is by far the freest country in the world"
"I guess that's why it has a prison population of over 2 million - some say it's the highest ever from any country in human history. Well done."
Yes, an interesting issue. If these people were performing labour to produce goods, you'd almost be inclined to talk about the US gulag. And if the racial profile of the inmates was overwhelmingly disproportionate to the general racial profile of the wider community, you'd be tempted to make a case for institutional racism within the justice system. Slavery, perhaps.
However, as we all know and understand, the USA is the land of the free and the brave and the generally well washed, so these people are properly described as criminals, enemies of society, and in their rightful place.
Having made those observations about the USA, I would add that the internal problems of US society do not affect Europe, and have zero bearing on problems facing European society. There seems to be a transatlantic competition for general righteousness emerging on the blog, based on the spurious logic which holds that if they are bad then we are perfect.
There is a profound anti-semitism and anti-Roma sentiment growing in Europe, and I am not surprised to read tales of recent public displays of discrimination and hostility towards minorities.
The British may have bad teeth (I've not noticed it, to tell the truth, but I defer to experts), but one thing the British do not generally go in for is overt hostility towards ethnic minorities. If the british hold racist or anti-semitic views, they generally keep them to themselves in public, and articulate them in private settings.
I suppose the point of this blog posting by Gavin (I hope) is that one could substitute "Europe" for the word "Hungary", and the general observations would still stand.
A vast amount of European tax revenue is now being channelled towards interest repayments on state debt. That means the vast majority of Europeans are working a lot of days each year for the sake of enriching the creditors of the state. Insofar as these working europeans do not feel the state represents their interests, but rather exists to secure the interest repayments to sponsors of the party system, you'd reasonably expect growing anger and hostility towards the state, towards minorities associated with money lending, and towards any minority which cannot defend itself and is thus an easy target for pent up anger.
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Re180: Chris, I respect your multinational bakcground but you should also start respecting other people's background and stop calling their existence a myth. I exist, I am here, I can send you my photo and you can tell me if I look like a Slav, an Albanian or a Turkomongol as you claim fantastically.
Now, I do not view the Russia as a physical continuation of the Greek culture as you claimed. In fact I do not view Byzantium as being equal to Greece. Byzantium was the eastern part of the multinational Roman Empire. It was habitated in majority by Greeks but there were a large number of other nations while of course not every greek speaking christian was a Greek (mid-Asia Minor, they were not Greeks obviously, the greek speaking norhern balkans were not Greeks even prior to the Slavic invasions etc.). It was run mainly by Greek administrators but then in reality other groups such as Armenians had a very important input including having given actually more Emperors than Greeks due to the fact that most Emperor dynasties originated from the military ranks, and most of the military was based traditionally in Eastern Anatolia (i.e. Armenia) at the frontiers with Persians, then with Arab muslims.
However, Russian civilisation was indeed based on Byzantine one, that is more than obvious. And between the 10th and 13th century Russian were much more civilised than any Polish, Germans, French and British together. I will not start now mentioning about Russians travelling to the west vomiting all their way there and Russian princesses married to French princes in 11th century arriving there and wanting to suicide because of the horrid conditions of life (inside the French palance!!!!!). I am sorry. That was the reality. Europeans got civilised from the late 15th century onwards. Even as late as the late 14th century Byzantines (by then empoverished, destoryed, looted) travelling in the west were disgusted by the lack of the basic cultural level among westerners. What do you know Chris? That in 1380 there was not a single source of water inside the British Royal palace and the king swept his hands on the dogs as a standard practice (it was not done for humour or something), which cut the appetite to the Byzantine Emperor and ambassadors? How about Oxford & Cambridge professors that were delighted to meet the first educated monarch, who not only was educated but infact while not being a man of education was actually more educated than themselves all that while their most educated monarch barely knew more than the alphabet?
But I am not harsh on westerners. It is simply down to he fact that in the whole Carlomagnus Empire litarcy standards had fallen so much as to not more than 500 people knowing how to read and write in the whole Empire, all of them priests, usually from Italy (!!!!!!!!!!!!!). In Britain it was barely better. Russians at about the same time (a bit later) were already copying libraries from Konstantinople. Their development was momentarily interrupted by the Mongol raids - raids that if occuring in the west they would had simply made the population... nothing more than horse riding nomads, ending all hope of having any culture. But by the 16th century they started again taking off. By 18th century Russia was the more powerfull land-based nation in the world and by 19th century they were up to world colonisation with Britain trying to contain them on all fronts. Russians led scientific developments in late 19th century admirably even before the start of their industrialisation proving the capacity of their culture.
Chris, you know nothing about history. You have your monolithic approach there and you stick to it. I am presenting you the other side. Contrary to your beliefs I am not any particular Russophile but I cannot deny the basic historic truths. Russia was much more civilised in 11th century than all the west together. Russia in the 19th century was the most developing nation in Europe being on the cutting edge of scientific progress while lacking only in social development due to its immense size traditionally difficult to manage (the 1/2 of Eurasia!!!). I am admiring too the British for having ruled not the 1/2 of Eurasia but directly and indirectly the fates of the world in the last 200 years, and it is admirable for an average sized island. Their diplomacy and politics have been simply superb and unsurpassed by anyone, yet on the culture thingie, they were not any particularly brilliant, French & Germans were much better.
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Some math is always good fun when talking about government finances.
Chew on these figures:
EU public debt: 8 thousand billion Euros
Interest repayments @ 4%: 320 billion euros
Working Population: 66% of 500 million = 300 million
Interest repayments per worker: 1060 euros per year.
So that is how much money is being collected by the various European states and paid in interest to private creditors. Enough to hire 16 million folks at 20K euros per year.
And that figure is going up, of course. I believe the EU deficit is around 2.5% of GDP, or 300 billion per year. And the interest on that is around 12 billion, which is another 600 thousand folks employed at 20K per year.
So, when folks talk about being "bled dry" by the state, for the sake of international investors receiving interest payments, they are exaggerating. Europeans are being bled, for sure. But they are not being bled dry.
I figure that with public debt standing at 68% and increasing by 2.5% per year, we have at least.... at least another 13 years before debt and GDP are on parity. Call it 12 for the sake of avoiding unlucky numbers, and because GDP will likely fall due to the tanking economy. In fact, let's call it a round decade!
So in about a decade, creditors of EU states will be receiving around 4% of everyone's salary as their reward for lending the member state governments money.
Or put another way, every worker in Europe will be working two weeks a year, on average, for absolutely nothing at all, except to keep government creditors in the manner to which they have become accustomed.
And then on top of that, the worker will need to work to support the states and their expenditures, which as we know are exceedingly large and also growing.
In fact, the member state governments are spending about 50% of GDP, or around 9 trillion euros a year.
I'll let y'all work out how much the average worker is working to keep that happy parade on its wheels and trundling down the main street of Europe.
The numbers are big, but the message regarding the debt is pretty clear. If the people running the member state economies of the EU lived in your house and lived from your work, you'd kick them out onto the street and tell them to go get a job and stop enjoying a free ride.
Of course, that would require it to be your house, which is a dream lost in the mist for most Europeans.
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Alice, you do not achieve anything by responding to powermeerkat. It drags you into circles that you would avoid if given the chance to reflect.
Unlike marcus, meerkat has no redeeming features to mitigate his aggressive nationalism. Meerkat is conspicuously involved in debate for the sake of emotional gratification alone, and he adopts his positions accordingly.
You will not convince him of anything, no matter how carefully you reason, because he is simply not interested in reasonable debate. Therefore, I suggest you simply say "There but for the grace of god go I." and waste your comments on those of us who appreciate them.
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I don't come on Have Your Say very often, but every time I do it seems it doesn't take long for discussions to deteriorate into my country is better than yours. And I'm sorry Marcus, I don't need to walk too far down the street in Japan to see America selling itself 'as the paradigm everyone should copy'. Forgive me for forcing one more European paradigm down your throat, but self praise is no praise.
Getting back to Gavin's blog, a couple of years ago I was back living in the UK and was disappointed to hear the amount of anti-foreigner sentiment. Maybe it just hadn't struck me before, or I hadn't wanted to admit it to myself, but it certainly felt more prevalent. I've lived in a handful of countries and experienced it wherever I've been.
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There but for the grace of god go I.
"A dog is barking, but the caravan goes on." ?
:o)))
No.
Sounds strangely similar to the old wisdom
"Do not vow not to wear a prizon robe or a beggar's bag ever."
Still.
"Aren't I'm lucky that I don't go there." ?
Where?
Where the KGB reporters end up, of course! The cultivated by the system "stukach'" type, who report. "tuck-tuck"/tock-tock.
Heritage, of the horror past.
"Tock tock", said the clock.
For the Grace of God only, indeed!
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To Gavin
Unfortunately, it is much worse than that. A weak an ineffectual government coupled with widespread economic misery brings - chaos, civil war and dictatorship. This is the route by which Germany got Hitler, Russia got Lenin and then Stalin and Spain got Franco. In the case of Spain, the Civil War of 1936-39 cost 650,000 lives and drove another 500,000 into permanent exile. Franco's dictatorship and one party rule lasted until his death in 1975.
England had the Civil War and Oliver Cromwell's rule in the 17th century. Don't let anyone say: It could not happen again, certainly not in my country!" It could and all to easily - avoid, avoid at all costs!
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To Chris Camps (180)
Suggesting Russia does or wishes to to dominate Europe is about as realistic as suggesting that Canada dominated North America.
Stalin may have been paranoid in his fear of a resurgent German but, remembering what the USSR suffered at the hands of Germany in the Second War War such fears are readily understandable.
To understand the current problems in United States Russian relationships, I would suggest the Eastward expansion of NATO after the re-unification of Germany is a major factor. See 'A Diplomatic Mystery' by former senator Bill Bradley' - it is available at: [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]I think that's correct.
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@197
"Yes, an interesting issue. If these people were performing labour to produce goods, you'd almost be inclined to talk about the US gulag. And if the racial profile of the inmates was overwhelmingly disproportionate to the general racial profile of the wider community, you'd be tempted to make a case for institutional racism within the justice system. Slavery, perhaps."
It would be even more interesting if these were privetly owned institutions, and produced things for armed forces.
"expect growing anger and hostility towards the state, towards minorities associated with money lending, and towards any minority which cannot defend itself and is thus an easy target for pent up anger."
Well, that's definitely not what has happened in Hungary. Most people have this completely the other way around compared to how it really happened. Altho there's a good amount of general short-sightedness (as usual) involned in seizing up this whole situation, youn can't really blame anyone for not having decent information abuot this issue in Hungary. For most westerners it's a periferial country with an extremely obscure language that almost nobody speaks except for its inhabitants, even the usual crappy but useable web translate thing fails if anyone gets the rare urge to look into the actual sources. Most ppl in the so-called western nations can only rely on the mainstream media outlets that get their stuff mostly from Hungarian mainstream outlets, which in turn up to now were very biased toward serving the interesets of the 'late' social party government (even the fully commercial ones). Now, that governemt's wonderfully cheerful tactic for legitimizing their more restrictive and opressive moves (like building a blokade around the parlaiment for a while, and adding new regulations to greatly increase police authority) was to portray hungarians as prone to violent racism, even generally carrying the possibility of spewing up militant, or even terrorist groups. This image was overwhelmingly pushed to western europe's media, and they made a meal of it most of the time. Of course on the contrary, with some extremely rare exceptions, the hungarians proved to be so docile and sheeple, that they even voted these people who were actually defaming them, into a second term. Sad, but by the end of this second term, just about everyone turned away from them... no wonder, in the process of trying to make culprits out of hungarians thru the media, they even spat their own woters in the face. Just great : )
Jobbik was rising fast because it was the only party at the start of this 'new struggle' to get rid of the remnants of the 'communist' system that openly and clearly denied this 'racist Hungary' accusation, and made an effort to discredit it. That's what jobbik's popularity has been built on, and not on a railing against what they call "gypsy crime" (Also everyone should note that the term "gypsy crime" has nothing to do with Jobbik, it was invented way back in the communist regime by the police at that time. That phrase was heard and used way before the Jobbik was even forming as an idea. - fyi) But... It's so obvious that as a consequence, "Jobbik" became the new focus of the racism accusation method of discreditation, and them being nationalistic, it was even easier to do towards people with little to no actual information on what's really happening. Not as automatically binding national emotion with racism makes any sense at all, but prejudice never shows much reason, does it? : ) (Also to note, "Jewdapest" has nothing to do with any recent political party, it's also an age old saying, it's original version is 'judapest', it wasn't even invented by hungarians as far as i know but foreigners visiting the city and it was not a pejorative term, simply referred to budapest having a large and very visible jewish community, actually contributing to make the city what is was (at those times it was often called the Paris of the east))
As far as i can see reading here the concept is that "jobbik" and the controversial "Hungarian guard" formation was created and then looking around for a helpless scapegoat, they got stuck on the gypsies. That, once again, is completely the other way around. The issue that actually created the "hungarian guard" at all was the rampant criminality in the most rural areas that the government cared little to nothing about, peaked in some really viciuos cases, and the police hardly even responded most of times, even if they did the last thing the people ever heard from them is that they 'opened a case' about the crime. This lack of actions got so severe in cases, that when people got robbed, the police showed up only days later, did nothing, and when they left the people got robbed again by the same guys right the next day. The guard was called 'to life' by the people basically, and their method was simply to drive there and show up, stay around at people who complained about continous harrasment, and prevent things simply by being there in numbers - the number one preventive feature of this is not some 'display of force', but simply a 'witness service'
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Re206: Problem is that if US respects Russia and does not intervene in its playground, it already leaves unUScontrolled half Eurasia... arguably the best part of it in terms of ressources and possibilities. Hence it is wired up to contain it. For Russia there is absolutely no need to do anything with Europe (the fears of Chris about Russia expanding are plain good old unbased phobias... a customer wants to conquer his supplier, but a supplier NEVER conquers his customer for obvious reasons!). However Russia's integrity is threatened with all these little states around it inviting US bases and possibly permitting US to install anti-nuclear missiles which will alter the strategic military balance (right now, slightly in favour of Russia: 2ble the size of US + better nuclear missiles).
The question is that US is very lazy. They could had acted much earlier, in the early 90s, however they had hoped that the drunkard Yelchin and his oligarchs could had done the job themselves closing the club and turning off the lights. Well it did not happen that way, and by early 00s it was clear for Americans that they had already lost 10 years.
They want the world, they want it the easy way too... hehehehe... all is not possible, one has to act fast and be prepared to take the price too, something that US simply does not want to do and thus it will stick to annoying others peripherally attacking only minor 3rd world countries.
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Re207: That is in Hungary? It involves the Roma? Cos for a moment I though you were talking about Greece and the Albanian criminality there...
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... mind you, that is a good old method of control... let in an ethnic/social/religious group and permit rampant criminality from its side to apply pore effective control on the citizens. As old as the word power...
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I think it is beyond the scope of a short blog article to entertain the richness of Hungarian politics. I am not convinced Jobbik is far-right, nor is it authoritarian [a far worse evil], or - of course - massively inclusive.
Hungary is a small country with a strange history. Having spent much of its history ruled over - by the Turks or the Austrians - it felt aggrieved to be divided after WWI. A war it entered as Austria's junior partner.
This feeling of injustice led to Hungary's stance in WWII - seeing Germany as a useful ally to regain lost land. Hungary's Jewish population fared quite well until the German retreat led to mass deporations and mass murder.
Hungary is fairly culturally, linguistically and ethnically homogenous and distinct from other Europeans. Its identity has survived the Turkish, Austrian and Soviet rule. Yet, ironically post Communism, many would feel the youth has adopted global (i.e American) culture. However, Hungary has the lowest rate of lingual dexterity of any nation in Europe, i.e. the highest percentage of monolinguists.
This had led to a slow decline of Hungary's fortunes as it is largely bypassed by international business. Its people struggle to communicate and understand the culture they have adopted.
It is a nation in long-term decline.
Even moderate Hungarians: multi-lingual, open-minded, well-travelled, etc; will see the Romany Gypsy population as a problem. They are economically rarely active and substantially more likely to have drinking, drug, substance-abuse. Are more likely to be involved in crime - a disproportionate percentage of prostitution for instance; including mothers driving their daughters around and offering them for sex.
This is rightly in need of being tackled.
Yes Romanys are entitled to human rights and their culture. Shunning education, owning/renting property, not paying tax, and being criminals though is hardly a culture worth defending.
I doubt the Jobbik party has the solutions but it does highlight the importance of the questions. Now it is up to mainstram parties (Fidesz etc) to justify their mandate.
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#197 democracythreat
´There is a profound anti-semitism and anti-Roma sentiment growing in Europe´
There is a profound questioning in America, Europe, and among Jewish communities around the world as to whether the social experiment of an Israel based on Zionism, is showing failure by accepting the excesses of some other -isms as policy.
This cannot be attributed to anti-semitism alone.
While anti-semitism and anti-Sinti and Roma sentiment has long existed in Europe, it is the Sinti and Roma who are in most danger.
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If an oak tree fell in the forest and nobody was around to hear it, would it make a noise?
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MA II- you appear to be one bitter old man.
A cab driver in NYC swore at me and racially abused me as he didn't like the tip I gave him. Granted it upset me at the time but I very much doubt I'll be harbouring bitterness to an entire continent of disparate peoples 40 year later!
Given how long ago your incident happened, you must be one bitter old man and it appears your only waking actions are to log on to a European website to tell Europeans how awful they are because of a bad experience you had in Europe some 40 years ago.
I’d laugh if it wasn’t so sad.
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#212
Zionism is a response to antisemitism. Perhaps the Sinti and Roma need their own state. It wouldn't necessarily make them safe, but it would allow them to fight back.
Israel is a State for the Jewish Nation.
Would you describe any other sovereign state as a "social experiment"?
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"I’d laugh if it wasn’t so sad."
I'll laugh: hahaha!!
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sixty-nine;
You aren't paying attention. Focus! I said that was only one example. It was the tip of the iceberg. Anyway cab drivers in NYC can be like that. So what. In Paris, a cab driver gave me an unwelcome tour of the whole city on a ride from Orly Airport into the heart of the City. No surprise that French cab drivers are crooked. I expected it. The whole world does. Just think of that song in "Les Miserables." It's a whole country of miserables.
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MA, do you know who Sinti are?
I feel awful backwoods; all normal people already :o))))
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Look these videos to understand what happens in Hungary, and why people are getting feared from Gipsies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vz0TBz2n98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss-PakbNN3Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlSjFI5RDHM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VUb3Xe3TG8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jprLvrlV-40&feature=related
- Gipsy gang terrorizing Siófok beach's shopkeepers
http://www.newsnet14.com/2006/11/24/gypsies-bring-terror-to-hungary/
I'm a Hungarian professional, and let me explain Jobbik's success, as we Hungarian feel here.
(Sorry for my weak English, but I learned 13 years Russian in the School and far less English.)
I was sad to read first comments on Hungarian election in the western leading newspapers, and they emerged as a great news is "the shameful sweep or far the antisemitic, antiroma party, Jobbik." They just repeated the official PC formula that "economic problems, unemployment, etc. push people to the believe in far rights promises...Jews and Romas are found as scapegoats, etc."
Look some facts about Hungary, what western media have hardly mentioned:
- Jobbik has a numerous (hidden)supporters among Hungarian professionals (doctors, lawyers, architects, etc.)This guys have actualy good jobs, salaries, have not antisocial,pathologic, prejudicative personality, but successful, appreciated family guys. But this guys realize day by day the following experience and fears:
1. Everyday happen more and more shocking violent crimes by Romas, we haven't seen this kind never before, these are shocking all Hungarian:
- a Hungarian teacher, Lajos Szögi was battered to death in a village, Olaszliszka by an infuriated Gipsy crowd after the pedagogue, by accident, peripherally swiped a Roma girl on the road (hasn't been injured). Romas drew out the teacher from the car, the two daughters of the driver had to witness the murder of their father.
(http://www.newsnet14.com/2006/11/24/gypsies-bring-terror-to-hungary/)
- Romanian national team handballplayer, Marian Cosma was killed in a Hungarian city in a nightbar by a Gypsy gang.
- Gipsy pupil hit and humiliate his teacher in a Secondary School http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vz0TBz2n98http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vz0TBz2n98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1VDl6kxBPU&feature=related
Numerous video can be found on you tube, search: "cigany".
And not only highlight cases happens, but rural inhabitans suffer from the pressure of unsocial, agressive groups of gipsies day by day. Elderly people's security decreased in villages dramatically...
2. At the same time, people see that media do not speak about gipsy problems honestly, we must hear the official PC mantra that reasons are simply "racism","poverty" "unemployment", etc. People feel that gipsies are protected by government and its politicians, and Gipsies seems to getting play upon the liberalism and positive discrimination of the government. An ethnobusiness awaked in last 6 years.
So this logic about antiRoma acts is not that "unsatisfied, unemployed losers" looked around, where to find an unprotected group, they found the Gipsies and made them scapegoats of all of their own problems.
Gipsies made a lot for this fame...
Important: Jobbik has not just spoken about "we are the solution" but they try to save rural people against the violence of nonsocial Gipsy gangs, even cooperating with some of the police trade unions providing a trainband service in villages.
About Antisemitism in Hungary
You have to know, that Hungary has the highest number of Jewish citizens per head all over Europe, most of Hungarian Jews live in the capital, Budapest (2'nd largest Jewish colonia over the world, after New York). Jews have strong position in Hungarian society, they can be found in far above the average rate in all professional fields (finance, arts, media, doctors, lawyers) and have strong influence on public opinion via media. The problem is, that the Jewish community influences the public opinion about what is PC in Hungary, and made any criticism of Jewish economical, political, cultural action a Taboo. They label even the smallest criticism as "antisemitism", so real problems connected to Jewish community can not be spoken out.
On the other side a Hungary is getting a favorite destination of Israeli investors, they dominate massively real estate investments. (About 50-70% of real estate investments are owned by Israeli or Israeli-Hungarian companies. Funny, as a real estate export acknowledged,in real estate business reports experts care scrupuluosly to avoid defining the nationality of investors in the statistics, since this domination is so overvelming.
Israeli President shocked Hungarian public with a speech: We buy Manhattan, Hungary, Romania and Poland...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL4Cu-K17vE
All this REAL THINGS make lot of average Hungarian feel feared and doubtful on their future in his country.
You find my comment interesting? I can give you more details, if you like.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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dnalrewnowniecilAbeW;
You look awful backwards too :-) That's what comes from spending too much time on the other side of the looking glass.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinti"
WA, do you know who the Klingons are? :-)
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MA, Given your HYS vitriol and rabid anti European rhetoric I would imagine your "iceberg" contains such a vast array of unimaginably horrible incidents at the hands of dastardly Europeans that it would make Anne Franks diary look like a happy fairy tale.
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#211. At 00:01am on 16 Apr 2010, Monjo
If I understand you correctly, you are confirming that nation and state is building a unity in Hungary. This unity is present in other European countries, and is in general a result of the numerous bloody conflicts combined with ethnic cleansing we have seen on the continent, not least in connection with the efforts by Hitler and Stalin.
Obviously this is not enough for the far-right, which continues to activate nationalism for their purpose. This is combined with populism, militant discipline and a similar dressing and behaviour, intolerance, hatred and suppression of defenceless minorities, and on this continent also with anti-European and anti-EU viewpoints as the Spanish minister for Europe also mentioned.
The day nationalism has been defeated and people don’t care much about the unity of nation and state will be an excellent day.
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sixty-nine;
I express a point of view you don't often hear Americans tell Europeans directly but when we speak about Europeans among ourselves, would it surprise you to know that compared to many others, my views about Europe are moderate? You don't like hearing it do you. But just look at the vitriol that comes from so many European bloggers about other Europeans. Just read Andras #219. Hatred for Roma, hatred for Jews, and rationalizing it every step of the way just the way Europeans have for a thousands of years, just the way Hitler and the Nazis did. Not one suggestion that there is another side to the story, not one suggestion of a plan of how it could be resolved peacefully so that they could live together. Not here and now, not anywhere in Europe ever. It took an American George Mitchell to get the people in Northern Ireland to stop killing each other after 400 years and they still aren't all convinced. It's hopeless. Barack Obama said during the Presidential campaign a couple of years ago that Europe is facing a demographic time bomb. Maybe this is what he meant.
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Clingons? Wait; I haven't come to terms with Sinti yet and already :o))
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I know I must sound like one of those crazy fat women who smoke toadstools,save whales, wear large floral dresses and who say everything is "Wonderful!", but I find the Roma extremely interesting people. I do think their culture contains something rather wonderful and precious.
They are accused of being "criminals" because they do not respect property laws as much as other cultures, but this could be better described as a conflict of laws rather than an objective judgement of fact. If a culture is nomadic and based upon humanistic traditions rather than property rights, it seems trite and even banal to then observe that its adherents are "thieves". Of course they are! And from their perspective, sedentary societies which reject roma humanism and which enshrine property rights as sacred are equally "criminal".
The crime of the sedentary tribes is to abandon humanistic traditions in favour of a slavish and greedy pursuit of inert currency. The roma, with considerable and growing justification, can point to the widespread culture of sedentary commerce and claim that it enslaves human beings in misery and is destroying the natural world.
The romani court of law, called the "Kris" is a fascinating and complex institution. Roma are nearly always described as a degenerate and filthy people, lacking in morals. And yet it is impossible to understand how the Kris works and maintain that these people have no moral code. The Kris, insofar as I understand the issue, is entirely based upon a strict adherence to a moral code of great complexity. The worst punishment is banishment from the community, implying a deep and abiding respect for the cultural norms which govern roma law. The roma are anything but anarchic. Furthermore, shame and reputation play an enormous part in conflict resolution, which is hardly something which can be said for most participants in the common law process.
For example, if two roma have a conflict which is brought before a Kris, it is often the case that both parties are fined and held to be shamed, and the fines are generally distributed to the poorer members of the community. And if one party is declared to be in the wrong and fined, it is customary for the "winning" party to offer part of the payment back to the "loser", as recognition of the fundamental value of the other party to the community, and to underline the communal values of the tribe.
I have seen similar legal principles at work in the aboriginal communities of Australia, as well as a similar disregard for property rights that stems entirely from the communal expectation that if someone is not actively using something, they will not mind if you borrow it to use for yourself.
The "civilized" mind rebels at the idea of this "borrowing" being applied to money itself, for money is nothing if not an expression of the individuals entitlement to property. And yet to communal folks, brought up to share and to place communal values above individual rights, money is just another object to be used when useful and then left lying around when not useful.
Anyway, I guess this is a forlorn post. I have an abiding interest in weird and wonderful systems of alternate law, and even I have significant trouble understanding how it works and accepting it as "legitimate". I may say it is wonderful, but of course I'd hate to live under it. I've become accustomed and adept at existing within systems of property law, even to the point of being skilled in the use of the company form to raise my legal status above that of mere government branded individuals. So if I do understand why there is such a lack of understanding regarding their culture. It is a pity.
I'd make the same observation about judaic culture. Jews have a special way of seeing the world which also fascinates me and which I think is rather special and valuable, according to its particular strengths. That's why I am such a poor anti-semite, much as I feel one ought to be slightly anti-semitic as a matter of loyalty towards agnosticism. The fact is that jews have much of value to offer other cultures, not least their enviable rejection of nationalism. Or, they did before Israel. Now they're just another whacky religion fighting over a piece of dirt. But traditionally, jews understood things other cultures did not, and I'm grateful for what I have perceived and learn by exposure to their traditions.
It seems a dreadful shame and waste when folks can't take others as they find them, and see the best in them.
I maintain that you cannot influence and control a man if you cannot see the good in him, regardless of how little there is.
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MarcusAuraliusII
I am sorry if you had an unfortunate and hurtful experience in Europe , on your only visit there all those years ago . It would be very unusual even at that time to find people in Europe who were so uncourtious .
Not all Europeans are as you describe , they are generally very kind and welcoming to American visitors . I have however met Americans visiting Europe , who have been very critical , boastful that everything in America is bigger and better , in general were very Brash .
I have known and worked with many Jews , whom I have found warm ,kind and good friends . Many of the Jews I have known have had a persecution complex ; they are looking for and seeing antisemitic offence where non exists .
For non Jewish friends this is upsetting , one fears to open one's mouth lest an innocent remark or joke should cause offence .
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
MA II, I assume you mean me when you post "sixty-nine"? - pretty good moniker all the same so carry on with that if you like?
Anywho, it would not surprise me how you and your friends speak about Europeans or any other non Americans for that matter, I can only imagine extreme vitriol, xenophobia and ignorance would be applied evenly to all those unfortunates who are not American.
For what its worth I'm not "European" (although how anyone can be from 27 odd countries I've no idea) so don't bother lecturing me on the historical case studies of bad Europe. There are plenty of outrageous acts of racism and brutalism committed by the country you so proudly represent it seems every day ad nauseam, I won't bother listing them all but lets choose say, segregation right up to the 60's, the plunder and near extermination of native Americans & their land and countless war crimes.
What I take exception to MA is not the Euro bashing, but your ignorance. There seems to be a fusillade of output from MA II, self righteously lecturing those of an entire continent why they are so terrible and why the country MA happens to have been born in (by way of chance) is so great.
Thumping your chest and repeating the same tired posts and getting worked up over something that has absolutely no impact on your life - a blog about Europe - seems pointless to me.
Adding up the dates of your now infamous incident in Bordeaux it seems to me you're getting on in life, why not just accept not everyone wants to be like you (& the America who it appears has nominated you her spokesperson) and that some people/countries actually think they'd like to do things differently to the US model.
Or just write another inane post....
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#223
"would it surprise you to know that compared to many others, my views about Europe are moderate? "
No surprise at all. But they aren't using BBC blogs as therapy to purge the deep-rooted traumas of the past. In a way you are getting free psychological treatment from Britain, I'm glad we can help.
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225. At 05:26am on 16 Apr 2010, democracythreat wrote:
"They are accused of being "criminals" because they do not respect property laws as much as other cultures, but this could be better described as a conflict of laws rather than an objective judgement of fact."
You, like most people here (or anywhere actually) totally confuse the concept of "criminality" with the so called concept "evil".
Every modern society calls that a criminal. If You live in a society that has laws and customs that generaly work, and you still live not accpeting them, that's the very basic definition of criminality.
"If a culture is nomadic and based upon humanistic traditions..."
I assume we are talking mostly about gypsies in Hungary in this blog. They are not nomadic. Also calling the roma humanists is a bit far fetched to say the least : ) Their concept of life involves being a lot more free to do what you want with your time, not having strict daily scedules, etc, which I too find sympathetic after seeing how peple get chewed up by a 'corporate life', but the roma get even more chewed by their own habit of not conforming to anything, even things that would benefit them on the long run, but being in constant confrontation that is completely pointless most of the time.
"The romani court of law, called the "Kris" is a fascinating and complex institution...."
That's very brochure stuff. Most romas is Hungary wouldn't have a clue what "Kris" is if you mentioned the word to them, and the slightly increasing number that would know, actually learned it from the same kind of 'brochures' as people here. That's not all their fault of course, those customs were probably functioning, but already fading away before the communist regime, which completely wiped them out right for starters.
"For example, if two roma have a conflict which is brought before a Kris, it is often the case that both parties are fined and held to be shamed, and the fines are generally distributed to the poorer members of the community."
I don't want to say that that's a fairytale, because this probably did work like that for many roma in the distant past, and there are some very rare cases of that happening nowadays, but most romas are either reslve their confilcts among themselves with hardly any guidelines, or go to court like everybody else. I would place an educated guess that about 95% of them never been to any "kris" or even heard anyone attendind one. The third option is turning to their "vajda", which they don't do very often either, the "vajda" usually just shows up when things get severe to put things back in a relative order, but that doesn't really happen by the kind of "roma law" described. The "vajda" simply has almost total authority, and he just tells people to drop it or else. I personally don't like the "vajda" ruling over gypsies, it far too often leads to exploitation, it's even more open to corruption than regular instituions you might have in mainstream societies, which often leads to them being kingpins or puppets to political parties dragging in votes. They would be lot happier of without most of them.
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"I express a point of view you don't often hear Americans tell Europeans directly but when we speak about Europeans among ourselves, would it surprise you to know that compared to many others, my views about Europe are moderate?"
But of course, there was this guy who screamed like an animal on tv and radio, just becasue soccer was getting more popular in the US. There are people even crazier than you : )
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DemocracyThreat, I too like gipsy culture free-style dressed with some amazing music. However, as they have made a choice of a certain lifestyle they have to respect the lifestyles of others. They are not basically bad people BUT due to their freestyle lifestyle can often create trouble, what I call "stupid trouble", i.e. trouble that does not benefit them first of all. What is needed is a smart policy to contain them and of course the law to apply as it applies to Hungarians.
If a 20 years old Hungarian murders a 15 years old he gets at least 15 years in jail. So it is not normal that a gipsy gets 1 years for example for fear of gipsy retaliation outside the court. Problem is that if such things happened in Germany, France or Britain the state would use the police (well... France is a bit relative, they have lost quite many territories to minority-based racism crime), now if Hungarians do it, there will be indignation just like Serbians trying to use police against Albanian insurgents in Kosovo.
It is the rule of divide and conquer. The rule of the minority having more rights over the majority - I am afraid we have come to this.
I am 100% with the Hungarians on this. I trust them to do the right thing.
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I didn't watch the TV debate of the "three party leaders" last night. It seems to be such a waste of time given that, based on their behaviour on the Lisbon Treaty, we know that we cannot trust one word they say.
Did anybody watch/listen?
The one thing that would interest me is to know if they got asked any awkward questions* on "Europe."
Does anybody know?
* Awkward for them. Not awkward for a "real person."
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I was looking out of my window whilst having breakfast.
They took the rubbish away.
Why couldn't they take the "EU" away?
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Euprisoner - I watched the debate. Now, since you didn't think it was worth watching, I ain't gonna tell you what it was about.
Clegg was impressive.
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"I was looking out of my window whilst having breakfast.
They took the rubbish away.
Why couldn't they take the "EU" away?"
Your attempt at being poetic? Questionable taste
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H;
You just don't seem to get it. I think you don't want to believe it. It was not one incident. It wasn't just my experience of living there. It was a lifetime of experience and understanding. Let me give it to you short and simple. I reject European history as an endless litany of wars and crimes agaiist humantity without parallel. I reject European culture as elitist, self absorbed, endlessly rationalizing the irrational, always resulting in disaster. I reject Europeans as insufferable, ignorant, self centered, and lacking in all perspective of the world and their place in it. In short I reject European civilization as having been and continuing to be far more of a liability to humanity than an asset. What few contributions it has made is far more than offset by the damage it has done. You can look all over the world and still see the consequences of that damage. Africa is a poster child of Europe's insanity. My visit to Europe was an eye opener, merely an intense immersion into what was becoming apparent and has been to me ever since. This thread is just one of countless pieces of evidence. Endless villification of "the other" with no thought or idea of how to begin to resolve supposed grievances real and imagined.
sixty-nine;
"What I take exception to MA is not the Euro bashing, but your ignorance. There seems to be a fusillade of output from MA II, self righteously lecturing those of an entire continent why they are so terrible and why the country MA happens to have been born in (by way of chance) is so great."
Funny what an enormous reaction there is from Europeans when the shoe is suddenly on the other foot...and it comes from just one person. How do you explain that? Do you think everyone in the world must admire Europe? What do you think the Chinese feel about it? It's clear from this thread many and so many others on this blog site Europeans don't like each other. Why should those on the outside feel any less contemptuous towards them? BTW, IMO a visit to Europe is a vist to a vast cemetary of dead monuments to past folly, much of it museums of what was stolen or built by people who were in fact no more than slaves in monstrous tyrannical dictatorships.
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WA;
Klingons are a warrior people. You think you have some tough people in Russia? I'd bet an average Klingon would slay half a dozen Cossaks before breakfast just to work up an appetite...and that's just their women.
http://www.hotink.com/warriorgallery/01.html
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@ 234
"Why couldn't they take the "EU" away?"
You should close the Euro Chanel first. Next, you should close the borders with Scotland, North Ireland and Welsh; and, finally you should open a non stop sea/air line with Pakistan and India, and then, everything will be shipshape...after all of the remaining mainland rubbish will have been taken away…in order to make room for the Pakistanis/Indians. Cheers friend!
/What a pity that I did not arrest you in Plovdiv, for spying, in the summer of 1968…but better late than never/…
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EU Pris 234;
"I was looking out of my window whilst having breakfast.
They took the rubbish away.
Why couldn't they take the "EU" away?"
GH;
"It is one of the scripts of European history. A weak and corrupt government. Widespread unemployment. A shrinking economy. Crime. A political party emerges. It offers certainty. Solutions. A [ethnic] cleansing. Crime to be "eradicated". Scapegoats identified"
That's only since WWII. Prior to that they were strong iron fisted tyrannies. They've been replaced in that regard by Brussels, they are its vassals.
The paradigm for Europe that Brussels is following wasn't created in the imagination of Orwell but in the observations of Kafka. That is Europe today and its intended trajectory, "The Castle." There is no fighting against it, there is no winning. Confronting it is like trying to grab a cloud, it slips right through your fingers.
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Re #38
"Now, what absolutely all say - why Russians are convicted?
Simple. Because when "Caucasians" swear at us, in the street, publicly - nobody drags anyone to the police!"
Particularly those Russians who beat (and sometimes even kill) dark-skinned people in the streets, including some African students of Moscow Patrice Lumumba University.
Corroborating reports (even by Russian press agencies) are a plenty.
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Remember Jorg Haider and his Austrian Freedom Party? The results of their electoral win? My inner sense tells me that the history WILL repeat itself. As for the "reincarnation of the ghosts of the past" - we can partly blame greedy, so called "businesspersons" - heartless "Gecko's"; more interested in profit than anything else - ordinary people, especially. And that is why I always preached against Liberal Capitalism - in favor of Keynesian sort of Economics.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re237: Marcus... yes yes... yes yes... Europe is the cancer America the answer... we have heard it...
I am afraid that hadn't been for Europe you would not be here to give us your ideas. You would be on some steppe working to push a man-powered mill being wipped. Hehe...
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#237
I am in total and absolute agreement with you.
Now, will that make you stop posting this crap?
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@237 MA
"In short,I reject European civilization as having been and continuing to be far more of a liability to humanity than an asset."
Markus, can you tell me how does it happen that all of your folks speak English instead of, say papua or some other indigenous language? Where do you come Marcus, I mean your ancestors?
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I would like to advise everyone trying to get defensive with MarcusAureliusII not to do so. It is not worth it. That user is full of hot air and no real substance. Also, please do not fall into the trap of bashing America just because of one troll claiming to be an American who "has spent some time in Europe". He clearly hasn't been anywhere near Europe, as his posts clearly show that he lacks even the most superficial knowledge of Europe and its people.
Please do not retaliate by smearing America. America is a wonderful place and its people have created a civilisation that has been a beacon of hope and an inspiration to the world and will continue being an inspiration for many years to come. Europe could and should still learn an awful lot from it. It would be wrong to allow one troll to tar America's image in the eyes of the substantial number of people who use these boards.
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#238
"Klingons are a warrior people"
Err no dearie, they're a fictional race from Gene Roddenberry's vivid imagination. Nurse! We need someone to wipe up the mashed banana of his chin.
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MA, Klingons, sure.
However I'll put my bets on the Russian Gypsy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoywgTyh5tc&feature=related
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Ah Eupris
I just got it. You were trying to emulate Haiku Herman, who just published a new book.
Well..creativity doesn't hurt
And yes, very poor performance - not blogging about the Polish president..etc..
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EUpriz (233): Last night’s debate was on so-called ‘domestic’ affairs. The EU only figured to the extent that some of the topics of the questions raised (e.g. on immigration, etc.) are connected to EU law (e.g. on free movement of people, etc.) superior to any that Brown, Cameron or Clegg can change if they win the election. The next debate is on ‘foreign affairs’ so i as suspect the EU topic will feature directly.
Having watched the whole debate i was surprised Clegg was named ‘winner’, but it was a good debate for sure. They all really duked it out, and got down into policy detail to a much greater extent that i ever saw in a US presidential debate.
There has been some discussion in the past as to whether the ‘think on your feet’ skills required to do well in House of Commons debate translate into the sort of skills needed to come up with wise economic policies or good law. But i think last night’s debate showed the Commons is a great training ground for TV debaters if the goal is not to ‘slip up’. I did wonder though how much of the rapid-fire policy detail on 8-10 different policies would stick in the minds of voters come polling day. Maybe Clegg ‘won’ by being a relatively light weight on policy? The contrast between last night and say the folksy quips of a Sarah Palin was enormous, but presumably US politicians are quite skilled at connecting with a TV audience and don’t go in for policy-wonk TV duke-outs for good reason.
Anyway, I’ll be watching the next two, and hope they do stick to discussing the real policy differences. A dumbed-down debate would only help the federalists who want you to believe that being in the EU is all about being nice to cuddly Continentals, and so obscure that it is hollowing out Continental democracies just as much as our own.
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Mr. Hewitt, bad economic times is not the main reason for these movements within European countries. You pointed to the real reasons, identity and societal change brought on by mass immigration from the developing world. An important question to you would be, what would be the logic behind welcoming these changes or embracing them. Societal disruption, displacement, ethnic conflict. Societies (elites) that embrace these changes are doing so based on advantage to them not to the general population. These groups are a by product of the inevitable, irreversible change coming when majorities become minorities in their own homelands. Can you imagine China or India embracing such change?
Remember the socialist mantra: What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine.
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@233 MAII "would it surprise you to know that compared to many others, my views about Europe are moderate?"
Nonsense. Certainly much to MAII's never ending annoyance and chagrin, many Americans are enchanted by Europe. Many Americans also know about commenting on the splinter in another's eye while ignoring the log in their own.
@226 huiamek "I have however met Americans visiting Europe , who have been very critical , boastful that everything in America is bigger and better , in general were very Brash."
Sadly, as we see with MAII's rants in particular, some (many?) americans are crude, unsophisticated, do not appreciate nuance, and/or have an extremely limited frame of reference. And I say this as a Yank.
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Re237: Marcus... yes yes... yes yes... Europe is the cancer America the answer... we have heard it...
I am afraid that hadn't been for Europe you would not be here to give us your ideas. You would be on some steppe working to push a man-powered mill being wipped. Hehe...
Now THAT I would like to see!
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Censorship and political correctness right out of communist thought. You cannot criticise those who have power over you. As for the gentleman of Indian origin, you identify yourself as such and yet you want to be considered European. I have been to Asia many times and always feel excluded, I accept the fact that I am not part of their societies.
Oh but I forgot, two standards right?
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Maria you are correct you did not, but your ethnic group is experiencing the revenge which is felt owed to you by certain powerful groups. Unfortunately for many generations to come, sadly not too many more though because you are being replaced systematically.
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247. At 1:27pm on 16 Apr 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"I would like to advise everyone trying to get defensive with MarcusAureliusII not to do so. It is not worth it. That user is full of hot air and no real substance."
Wheres the fun in that, the main reason I read these comments is for Marcus's comments. Responding with little jibes and rebuttals just winds him up into a even funnier tirade.
Remember when he claimed the intellect of a million Europeans, Hah, I almost choked on my tea. :-D
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Yes Webalice - beautiful gypsy woman..unfortunately stylized..
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after some research I can confirm that WA's alleged gypsy beauty is, in fact, slavic beauty Svetlana Toma
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Once the we progress a few decades, you will wish things had changed when they should have. You will be immersed in a changed culture society, a hated minority with no special protected privilieges (this was only for the invading replacements to allow a foothold). It will be miserable and all the feel good pc garbage that you were forced to adhere to will only be a shell of the intensities to come. No people have volunteered to give up everything they had, to become severly vulnerable within their own countries in history.
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Do not desecrate the memory of 6 million murdered by using the memory to justify other de-humanizing actions on others.
Many countries have tried social experiments with ´-isms´.
I fail to see any difficult intellectual barrier for MarcusAurellius and his ilk, to overcome with Zionism.
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Ironically, it appears safer to be a Sinti or Roma in Europe rather being a Palestinian under Zionist jurisdiction.
- a profund and disturbing thought don´t you think ?
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For the comments that are clearly anti-Europe, aggressive, hating, take note. America was never intended by it's founders to become what is has become. It was never anti-Europe. On the contrary Europe to be brought to N.A.
Europe will save itself, I would imagine with strength of Russia. An awakening of Euro descended people will have to happen for their own self-preservation as the end game becomes revealed.
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MarcusAureliusII you seem to have allot time on your hands. North America will be more focused on Europe as demography changes (forced)
and we need to cling to our bretheren for solidarity. You are wrong about America having anti-European origins.
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Besides, MA, they are far better looking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrEG3cVvHdg&feature=related
("Leave her, Baron. She'll ruin you, and no one will be able to save you, even me. Leave her, Baron, she's a witch.")
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It would appear that the BBC is only concerned with screening comments from those posters that do not fall into the opinions of the politcally correct.
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America is a souless, degenerate land with slums and ghettos, gated communities and hollowed out cities. Ever been to Detroit? Health care is the burden that destroys most middle class people financially. it is a landmass that is populated by different ethnic groups sewn together by very weak threads.
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Gheryando! ....! :o(
You are too clever.
"Stylised". We are all - :o)))) - stylised!
OK, the lead beauty is Russian, but the rest are - original.
And by the way "Toma" is the fall on the last syllable, French grandma, only I don't know how to write it in French.
And anyway even that she is slighly Russian :o)))) slightly French girl :o))) - she was born in Bessarabia that is Moldova that is Kishinev that is Cicinau. Scisi anyway. Karpaty mountains, alright? A very, very gypsy place. You are way too demanding! :o))))
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Jack Tan is hilarious
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MarcusAurellius and Scotch-git.
You would rather have been born a Roma in Europe, than a Palestinian under Zionism.
I think that explains my definition of a failing state based on another ´-ism ´.
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Bienvenue Jack Tan - Are you a psychiatrist by any chance?
We need one around here. :)))
Hey Hungarians, really sorry you guys are being sidelined..........
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WA - Being told by a Russian Woman that I am too demanding makes me think, really. haha
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Gheryando there is truth in humour, keep laughing doesn't make it less truthful.
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Islandhopper1 no but I did study psychology in school. The PC lemming is truely a useful tool for the movement to bring the West down, when people's backs are up against a wall though, like any other entity they will have to defend themselves. The West is taunted by it's own elite through media, government and so on. When polls are allowed to be published about various problems facing us, the majority is on side against the establishment generally. If things continue as they are the end result is undeniable. The only way to prevent a resistance to this agenda is to threaten the majority to remain silent and see this outcome to be inevitable, it is not.
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This sure did very qiukcly became a face-spitting contest between self proclaimed very europeans and extremely americans : ) niiice : ) Could we rush things a bit and have WWIII before I'm too old to take the strain?
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Re275: You said a magical word Jack. Inevitability. Indeed there is some kind of fatalism fallen on the world that on anyway we cannot resist.
Yes people can resist. But it is not something simple. There are clamps and nets on the people. Not only grabbing but imbedding their clamps and nets on their bodies. You cannot just take it to the streets and protest, for example. 95% of the times the one leading you will be part of the establishment himself as the establishement will have foreseen your reaction and already put you a leading figure which you will follow thinking it is the right way of reacting. Any successful change or revolution 9 times out of 10 was part of the establishment's choice or at least a team within the establishment leading the events. French and Bolshevik revolutions are prime examples - in fact in both cases but especially the second, it was not so much the internal establishment but the internationalised one.
Now, how you can react? You can react by becoming you too selfish. Funny isn't it?
You can find ways to avoid paying for most of things you need so as to be as less as possible bound to something whose value is defined by the system you oppose, i.e. money. So avoid paying tax, avoid paying for your food, for your energy whenever you can. You have to give emphasis on private property above any other form of purchase. Forget about materials, keept it simply and buy land. If possible, buy land, cultivate land, produce energy yourself trying to pay the minimum and if possibly no tax at all on these.
There is no way to react inside the established social lines. But then you do not need to be an outcast to do 2-3 things to the degree you can.
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... arming yourself helps too... "the system" does not like armed citizens... haha...
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Alice, XB! BB! and three kisses for you.
Yesterday (15 Apr) was tax day in US; I was knee-deep in paper.
Today is more serene. But my flight plans are being disrupted by volcanic ash, so I am praying for divine intervention. I suppose I shall be back in my beloved Old World before long, anyway. Maybe by ship.
It occurs to me now might be the time to travel via the Far East & then take the Great Train. Hmm. Always dreamt of doing that. Maybe this will be the year to do it.
And it appears there is a language I cannot pronounce, after all: Icelandic.
Speaking of xenophobia, lots of it on display these days in American blogs, about Russians. But I do discern that such voices are now increasingly in the minority -- so I am not without hope.
Greetings & love to all my European friends out there, wherever on earth you might be today!
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#271
Are you kidding me? What about all those cool TV shows that guide us on the path to peace?
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"Greetings & love to all my European friends out there, wherever on earth you might be today!"
You surely must exclude those nasty Germans there, am I right?
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Maria Ashot,
BB! three kisses
Do come over, of course, don't know how the train looks these days. Some finding out first, perhaps?
I am now very interested in that volcano because I definitely cough which is way too extra. And need to take the dog out and wonder how.
Please who has skies cleared out first - tell others tomorrow.
And, what is a "sleet shower", forecasted for St. Pete by BBC on Sunday?
Is that "sleet" volcano stuff or something normal, in English?
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Yo Alice
Per wiseGEEK:
Sleet is wintry precipitation, and its exact definition depends on where you are. In Europe, sleet refers to snow that has partially melted on its way to the ground. In the United States, this is called slush or wet snow. Sleet, to meteorologists in the United States, consists of frozen raindrops that hit the surface as little ice pellets.
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Jack Tan - I'm not saying you're not saying the truth. But it sounds so fatalistic. We still have a choice. Voting. And you can tell that the system will probably fix itself at some point.
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239. At 12:08pm on 16 Apr 2010, generalissimo wrote:
@ 234
"Why couldn't they take the "EU" away?"
"...after all of the remaining mainland rubbish will have been taken away…"
EUpris: I think you do misunderstand me. I do not think of everything that comes from the continent as rubbish. I do not want all those wonderful Italian restaurants closed down. Some things on the continent are great and some are rubbish. The "EU" is worse than mere rubbish. I would not be trying now to learn two continental languages if I hated the continent.
"/What a pity that I did not arrest you in Plovdiv, for spying, in the summer of 1968…but better late than never/…"
EUpris: You had a chance in Burgas and in Primorsco too. Given that many Brits were sitting in bars shouting DUBCEK, I am surprised that we were not arrested.
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236. At 11:36am on 16 Apr 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"I was looking out of my window whilst having breakfast.
They took the rubbish away.
Why couldn't they take the "EU" away?"
Your attempt at being poetic? Questionable taste
EUpris: No! I wasn't trying to be poetic on this occasion. I tried that some time ago, but didn't succeed in provoking anybody.
"Questionable taste"
EUpris: Keep questioning! It may not be legal for long.
One of the problems with the continental mind is, in my opinion, the belief or "over belief" in absolute truths.
I had a very good German boss in Germany. Very good as a boss, except that one day he dropped dead. Very selfish!
When it came to religion, politics and art he was a nutter.
He maintained that whether something was good or bad art or whether it was or was not art was not a matter of opinion but an absolute truth.
And who was the source of this absolute truth?
Well, surprise, surprise, he was!
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239. At 12:08pm on 16 Apr 2010, generalissimo wrote:
@ 234
"Why couldn't they take the "EU" away?"
You should close the Euro Chanel first
EUpris: I don't want to close the English Channel, just the Channel Tunnel.
Dobre nots, Tovarich!
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generalassimo #246;
"Markus, can you tell me how does it happen that all of your folks speak English instead of, say papua or some other indigenous language?"
I don't know? I learned it from my parents when I was an infant. That's what they spoke. I don't know where they got it from. I guess they got it from their parents. They spoke it like natives. They were natives :-)
"Where do you come Marcus, I mean your ancestors?"
I'm not sure. Some tell me it's Adam and Eve. Others say from ancient homonids who evolved two million years ago and if you go back far enough, amoebas. What difference does it make? All that matters is that I am here now.
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CC;
"I would like to advise everyone trying to get defensive with MarcusAureliusII not to do so."
Most of the time I would describe most of them as offensive. But don't worry about me. I can handle them. They are after all....only Europeans.
Nonsense offramp;
""Klingons are a warrior people"
Err no dearie, they're a fictional race from Gene Roddenberry's vivid imagination."
Shhhh, I almost had WA convinnced they were something like Apaches or Commanches. Now you've gone and spoiled it.
WA, ever hear of "The Borg?" They make Klingons look like house cats.
http://www.greg.pergaria.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/borg3.jpg
I think some of our soldiers in Iraq even looked like them in their battle gear.
Malefactor;
"Remember when he claimed the intellect of a million Europeans, Hah, I almost choked on my tea. :-D"
I think I said I was smarter than a million Europeans. I was being modest. And it is so easy to prove too.
Jack and tan;
"America is a souless, degenerate land with slums and ghettos, gated communities and hollowed out cities. Ever been to Detroit? Health care is the burden that destroys most middle class people financially. it is a landmass that is populated by different ethnic groups sewn together by very weak threads."
I guess that explains why nothing ever came of it.
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WA, I enjoyed the gypsy video up to the end. Had she been smart, she'd have stood off to one side, preferably the side where the driver didn't have the whip and as the horses went by, whipped one of them in the head to start them stampeding. That would have taught the guy a lesson. That's what someone who was thinking fast would have done.
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MaudDib, thank you, you are a treasure. Bolshoy russky :o))) thanks- spasibo.
Sleet - it's great. That volcano stuff hanging over us, may be will land, may be it won't - you know.
So far I understood it is hoovering like a blanket where airplanes fly, preferred that height. But might start flopping down, powdeering on us. Which is a total no-no for me.
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WA;
"But might start flopping down, powdeering on us."
Do you think the train in the Chunnel can ride on it if it does? We learned last winter it couldn't handle wet snow, only dry powdery snow.
Someone on TV here said the last time that volcano in Iceland blew its top for real, I think around 200 years ago, it lasted over a year. So Iceland is getting its revenge over the fallout from IceSave with a little fallout of its own.
They say that those the gods would destroy they first drive mad. It seems to me that just might be what is happening in Europe now.
A hat pin would have done the trick....stampeding the horse I mean. Isn't that one thing jockeys can do when they want to fix a race, jab it in the side with somethig sharp to make it run faster? What do you mean you wouldn't know, don't they teach you anything like how to fix horse races in those schools over there? What's the world coming to anyhow?
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And, MaudDib, I really liked your idea of folding time and space like a pan-cake. You are total Tsiolkovsky.
How have I not thought about it before. I always knew Americans are able of a big swing. (the real ones, not the fakes that appeared here recently)
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Now, Mavrelius. With another big swing :o))) idea, how to stop horses, or that is, it was how to teach a lesson.
Well. Un-orthodox approach, must say. :o))) There is something in it.
Still, somehow, we traditionally value high the skill of stopping horses at full ? gallop. Swing. :o))))
Preferably, by ? glance.
If this doesn't work :o))) - by eh, conventional means possible.
Grabbing them at the? ? well, those ropes. If they have some :o))))
Not that I tried, yet :o)))) but it is a theoretical graduation minimum for a Russian woman. You know "a horse will stop at full gallop, into a burning izba will walk." A matter of life-style. :o))))
(about teaching a lesson nothing is said) But I guess one can always improve his/her life-style :o)))), have an up-grade.
That girl over there awful beautiful, name is Rada. All ended badly there, naturally, a great love story. They killed each other, with the guy.
He lost his nerve stabbed her, she said "I knew it" and quietly collapsed down to his feet. There hopped over her father and stabbed him. So he quietly collapsed down onto a pile.
All cried, the whole company, and "went into the sky". Into the sun-set, sun-rise, against the sky, the figures seen, on the horizon.
Novel by Maxim Gorky; Gorky Street named after him, you know. Now you know one thing that Gorky wrote up.
With great writers those masterpieces NEVER, NOTHING, ends well.
In that case the un-solvable contradiction was at the marriage ceremony she desired for his heart and soul entirely. That he will forget all, stealing horses (high qualification), and ? free life, and whenever he looks and of whatever he thinks - he has in his eyes only her - Rada. And warned him in advance about it, like a good girl. That she will ask he kisses her right hand, publicly (you saw that public), and surrenders all positions. Otherwise no Rada no nothing.
He also warned her in advance, that, like, forget about it, freedom first, girls - second. No pasaran.
From this point on these two were doomed, because they couldn't exactly keep away off from each other, and eventually ended up by marriage, in very heavy condensed clouds atmosphere, because the whole gang around suspected it'll end by sure death. Two freedom loving characters oj oj oj.
So, naturally, he says like whispers don't do it the last warning, and she naturally says And now ladies and gentlemen, this guy has pledged to forget all etc and will now kiss my right hand.
At which point of tension build up he had no other clever ideas (well, Mavrelius, may be you know something for such a case) but to stab her with a knife and she had no other clever ideas but to say Mama and die on his arms. To his despair.
Luckily, he didn't despair long.
(her dad came up, in full disgust, re killing the dear boy, but position obliges)
Disaster.
I think it was something "for strong is, like death, love".
A total masterpiece, adored in our quarters. Luckily, the happy wedding is at the very end of the movie, there are lots of intersting things to see before.
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WA;
"That girl over there awful beautiful, name is Rada. All ended badly there, naturally, a great love story. They killed each other, with the guy."
A touching story, a regular Russian Romeo and Julietsky.
On second thought, it sounds more like the last act of Carmenoff.
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Mavrelius, I disagree to live with that chimney smoking. Icelanders clearly can't manage their volcano.
I am really hungry to evacuate them, ASAP. By ships? they can't be many. Including dogs and cats and cars and all belongings. Can be to here, we can always find one-two empty Iceland-size places.
I only won't know how to convince them, it's natural heating from below and warm swim-pools all over in Iceland, and nothing like that we can offer here.
But you can't do any thing with a volcano with Icelanders around it.
I think may be its cap has to be opened, so that it is normal good open fire and not that chimney smoking. A bomb?
:o)))))) You are specialists in non-nuclear high-precision targeted bombing. Anything appliccable for volcano clear-ups?
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For crying out loud, we have Kamchatka volcano-s erupting non-stop and in fire and convulsions perennially. If they stop for a year it's only for an earth-quake coffee-break.
And who has ever complained? About Russian volcano-s?
Even Japan - the nearest foreigners - don't.
Why ours don't smoke?
A matter of proper management.
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WA;
We have our own version. After 50 years, West Side Story is still an American classic. Perhaps Leonard Bernstein's best work.
Tony is Italian American, Maria is Puerto Rican. He's the founder of the Jets, Maria's Brother Bernardo leads the Sharks. Tony Kills Bernardo...by accident. Here's the scene leading to the rumble where the Jets and Sharks (Montagues and Capulets) sing about destroying each other. Maria (Natalie Woods) wants only Tony, Anita (Rita Moreno) wants only Bernardo. Tony doesn't want any part of the war. He stays out. Tries to make peace at the end, gets shot and dies in Maria's arms. (There's a place for us.) Great music, great dancing, great movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpaS2v-r7cE
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Here's some more of West Side Story. Maybe I'll watch the whole thing one of these days. Haven't seen it in years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QS7wWzwak4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II2uaRmlQNg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpdB6CN7jww&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_QffCZs-bg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oxfOncYiag&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BQMgCy-n6U&feature=related
In real life, the beautiful Natalie Wood met a tragic end.
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“…A shrinking economy. Crime. A political party emerges. It offers certainty. Solutions. A cleansing. Crime to be "eradicated". Scapegoats identified.”
Gavin, I read and read again the entry of the article, and I think I should congratulate you for having depicted, in a few words, the roots of the phenomenon, we in the mainland are accustomed to name by its real name: fascism.
The danger is still there, not only in Hungary. The picture is almost the same in Bulgaria, in Romania… You have gone to the core of the problem. In a country, where is misery and lack of justice, the extremists of any colour come on the stage? We, in Bulgaria have gone through a very authoritarian regime between 1923 and 1944 that sympathized to and cooperated with the Nazis. Next, after the Red army entered the country, our communists gradually established another type of authoritarian regime that completely removed what had remained of the democratic traditions, thus submerging the whole nation in some kind of isolated, unjust and non-working bureaucratic society…
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#289
"Most of the time I would describe most of them as offensive. But don't worry about me. I can handle them. They are after all....only Europeans"
And they say Americans dont get irony....
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#289
"I think some of our soldiers in Iraq even looked like them in their battle gear"
Behave like them too...
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#300
In an EU sense they are young countries, not long out from under the Soviet yoke. They were hardly prosperous before 1944.We are also in the deepest recession since the 30's, money is tight and the EU doesnt have cash to throw around like it did with, say, Ireland. Eastern Europe is a long way behind the West and only economic development can diminish that gap, which is hopefully what will happen. I personally think that economic development in Eastern Europe is money well spent , unlike the money wasted subsidising French farmers.
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@ 298 MA
I should avow Marcus that this time you made a big point. What GH is describing as a pure European phenomenon /fascism/ was well known to Leonard Bernstein as a problem of the American society of the 60s. I love "Westside story". I have seen the film when I was 20. Thank you for the posts that revived my memory and my youth friend...
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#227 Huaimek
Sorry folks , I fell foul of the Moderators !
When I read their E Mail , I thought must be my previous post .
When I saw it wasn't , I couldn't remember what it was at all .
Then I remembered , I had described how Roma in Italy earn a living .
Evidently , giving the truthful details breaks the rules .
I expect all you knowledgeable well travelled people already know without my saying .
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Marcus,
You are proudly perverse and that is that...but you write well, so I appreciate you, but now Europe suffers..remember that humans are all well..human,
Love you,
David
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MAII and WA
Have you ever seen " West Side Story " live on the stage . If you ever get the chance do so . The film is OK , but the leading roles were taken by attractive looking people who cannot really sing . This show requires liric opera singers . I saw " West Side Story " when it came to London in 1958 , twice in its first to weeks buying last minute return tickets . It is simply magnificent on the stage . I am sure the opportunity will come round for both of you .
You might also be able to find a copy of making the CD recording , with Leonard Bernstein conducting , José Carreras as Tony and Kiri Te Kanawa as Maria , which was made as a television film in the recording studio . Although is was effectively a concert performance , watching Bernstein conducting an amazing recruited orchestra and the excellent cast of real singers perform , was as exciting as the live stage show . The television recording has much better sound than the CD , which I also have .
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Jack Tan,
You have already offended me to the maximum point. Racism and xenophopic reactions to problems of today are not the answer and will leave you stranded and bewildered as to your plight.
Have you have heard of the "man without a country?" He cursed his own country for its sins and was put
On a biggish boat and was held captive on the boat the rest of his life
where he heard.. history.. passing him by and optimistic.. history,, it was....life was not so bad in his own country--it developed and adapted to change and thrived.
Its a great story...fiction but pay heed to it....Just hunker down and in 10 years you'll be ok with the circumstances and surroundings of your life I predict..
Thank you so much for reading my post--if you actually did.:))))))
David
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Also, I lived through the 1980s of the Reagan years.
When they were over I was alive, back at college, quitting my burn-out job, and I was born anew...hmmmmmm...
Reagan and his ilk were depressing but I DID survive it....surprising Me Very Much.
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The mass culture of America..for THE masses--the "worker bees"..maybe is the only thing Americans can point to with pride because unlike history it will remain ....somewhere.... intact.
Will the future world offer the similar fare? as Europe did--paintings scripts, stories, symphanies and opera ..BEFORE the USA?
..maybe from Japan and India and maybe, just maybe, China, I can only hope and predict:))
Maybe, culturally Russia will again dominate--Day Watch? Night Watch? Solaris? hmmmmwith glee:)
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I see that one of my posts has been sent to the moderator for a spanking.
I have no idea why.
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297. At 04:29am on 17 Apr 2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
"For crying out loud, we have Kamchatka volcano-s erupting non-stop and in fire and convulsions perennially. If they stop for a year it's only for an earth-quake coffee-break."
EUpris: Racially superior volcanoes now!?!?
I suppose the American ones are even bigger and better and technologically superior.
I am so jealous!
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Those who complain about Iceland's volcanos are welcome to visit Kamchatka.
And see for themselves how they manage there not only their volcanos.
[Been there, seen that]
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I am surprised that the"EU" has not yet claimed that the volcano thingy proves that we need more "EU"-integration and an armed pan-"European" volcano service with the "right" to detain any "citizen of the EU" indefinitely at secret locations and to suspend the parliaments of "EU" countries.
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Fairly balanced and correct article. Although, the responsibility of the outgoing socialist government and the former socialist-liberal coalition, which has deeply involved in corruptions and fraud is not being emphasized in the report. One of the major reasons for the current economic, social and moral crisis is the mismanagement of the state institutions during the socialist-liberal coalition.
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To those Americans who claim here technological and other superiority:
Beyond any doubts Russian integrated circuits and even midgets are much bigger than yours.
Not to mention that their planes are much heavier.
And their missiles (e.g. "Bulava") have much more freedom to maneouver on their own than American ICBMs and SLBMs.
So calm down guys: there's nothing to boast about.
[Besides American "hard liquer" [ha!] is only 40%, while Russian -50%!]
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Those who don't remember how Hungarians were not only discriminated against but positively slaughtered in their own country obviously have not been alive in 1956.
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@ 298 MA
I should correct my last post by saying that the basic idea of the “West Side Story” musical was inspired first by the Shakespeare’s “Romeo & Juliette” play and secondly by the Arthur Laurent’s book of the same title. However, you are right to make the comparison with the nowadays situation in Hungary /which is absolutely the same as in neighbour Greece, in Bulgaria, in Romania, in France, etc./. As I wrote earlier, you made a big point because the misery combined with a weak and corrupt administration and the lack of justice gave birth, here in Europe, to all those monsters like Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin, the humanity still remembers of with horror… Congratulations Markus, and please excuse me for some of my earlier posts, where I used to criticize you for some of your misplaced jokes and assessments…
@ 303 commonsense_expressway
Thanks for your comments. I should however remind you that until 1915 Bulgaria was still believed to be a normal European constitutional monarchy with a very progressive /for that time/ constitution, freely elected parliament, independent court of justice, etc. So was Czechoslovakia between the two wars, etc. What I mean is that the civic society here was not at all a “terra incognita” /as some people still associate with all those nations that inhabit old Europe eastwards of say, Vienna…/. Unfortunately, the new history /I mean the decisions of the trio Roosevelt/Churchill/Stalin stipulated another political division which still has got its consequences both for the economy and the mentalities of the said countries.
It’s time maybe to thank the west government that invited us to enter the EU /i.e. the club of the rich/ thus giving us the chance for a better life… The West kept its promise. Bulgaria /just like the remaining part of the eastern bloc/ enjoys all those privileges its membership to the EU allows it…
You are right to believe that through hard working and fiscal discipline we have the chance of filling /at least/ a part of the gap that is the source of so much troubles all over the EU. What I do hope to see is another face of old Europe, where, say the crushing majority of the people will feel relatively free, comforted and happy… I insists on this qualification knowing how different still are the living standards here, the educational level, some of the cultural traditions, etc. As Tony Blair has put it, we need more education…
Regards
Sofia, april 17th 2010
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Since May 6th is looming I wish all our British cousins a susccessful outcome of their election.
[unfortunately we'll have to wait 6 more months for ours]
BTW. When is a referendum on your membership in EU going to take place?
I've been googling and googling and still cannot find the date anywhere.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"BRITONS NEVER NEVER NEVER SHALL BE SLAVES" [?]
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320. At 11:21am on 17 Apr 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
" ...
BTW. When is a referendum on your membership in EU going to take place?
..."
EUpris: Not any time soon. We do not have a functioning democracy in the UK. We have a sick joke posing as a democracy.
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EUpris: Racially superior volcanoes now!?!?
:o)))
Well, EU prize, you may say I just brought the thread to its natural conclusion. To cut things short!
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Someone has to manage threads, volcanoes, what's with this and that.
Nothing like a Russian, with famed organisational skills, for that!
:o))))
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MA, the West Side Story is total aaah, I mean, wonderful.
Don't worry, we watched it here in its time. But always a pleasure to look back in again, thank you for the links.
The West one is of course Shakespearer's, eh, re-load perezagruzka :o)))))
The Carmen, though, is a variation on the Rada theme.
Gorky didn't invent it, but eh, egegantly borrowed (what you call plagiarise :o))) from the old gypsy "myth of ancient Greece".
That's Gypsy culture times ancient Greece, and I think many things Spanish, just look at the skirts and the dance - were borrowed from the Roma culture.
In other words, Rada story was always around, when volcanoes were being built :o)))), and all.
Gorky just pulled it up, and put on paper.
He spent a lot of time in his youth snooping around Russia (dirt poor, taking chancy one-off jobs). Like a baker assistant, like a Volga barge puller, and in Karpaty may be stealing horses :o))))), kept acquaintance according to the life-style :o)))), and sponged a lot of spoken stories around, gypsy included.
Which all came to him handy when he settled into sccribbling mode.
He even has a book, about that period of his life, that he modestly called "My Universities". :o))))) .of life.
Anyway the film is around for a long time, and (like with volcanoes :o)
nobody Gypsy worlwide complained about the Russian interpretation, even the songs from there (which I am afraid is a good big modern composer hand-making :o)))) are percieved as total natural.
If the composer - great composer - Bessarabian Evgeny Doga - wouldn't be safely dead by modern interesting times, - any day some Gypsy community would have him held for authorship rights :o))))) but instead they sing them as their own.
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I mean, great composer. Here, you know the theme. Only didn't know it's him. Ice-skaters in crowds took it for their performance skating at various Olympics. He was Moldovian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mSHQgpeCbQ
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So Lonnie Bernstein was Moldovan?
So who was Vlad the Impaler in turn?
A Confederate? :)
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WA #325;
I like Rada the Gypsy girl better. Do you think she could dance...with a rose between her teeth? Do you like Flamenco? It seems to me Flamenco must have some Gypsy in it. I don't know much about it except I like it. I only saw it on several occasions live. In Madrid where life doesn't begin until 10 PM. You go downstairs in these clubs and buy a pitcher of sangria and you can watch them dance and sing all night...with castinets, guitars, and those costumes. Saw it in Puerto Rico at a strange theater with huge overhead hanging gardens in The Old El San Juan Hotel to recorded music. Very inferior without live musicians IMO.
When you see these young lovers do you ever think about what they will look like 30 or 40 years later when they are old and fat?
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That's she marrying the man she doesn't love, against her heart. :o(
Doga wrote the waltz on order, to this scene.
So that you know, when you hear the music again, it was supposed to mean exactly this, the waltz, remembering old love.
Well, she didn't have much marrying choice in fact :o), the other guy died, shot at a hunt.
Checkhov novel, and as I said :o)))), all those great masters plain can't leave their heros alone! I mean, alive.
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WA;
Sometimes music written under contract is not good. Puccini's La Rondine was IMO a very inferior sequel to La Boheme, only one good aria. Rudolfo (with a different name) is much older, second time around after Mimi is dead. Mediocre, insipid, not at all like his masterpieces like Boheme. When the pressure of a deadline looms and they have to come up with something and they are dry of ideas, they just put down whatever comes to them and slough it off. The contract is fulfilled but the product is disappointing.
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Flamenco IS gipsy music. And it was originally from those gipsies that came from Flandres at the time the Low Countries were under one state with Spain. The Flamenco were the gipsy people that came from Flandres when these got liberated (and kicked them out too as Spanish collaborators... as-if, not bad since it would "badder" to have Dutch people dancing flamenco style - it is just not for them...).
Gipsies' favourite past time is music music music and the only thing they do next to it is dance dance dance. They have been doing it throughout their history. Back in India there are still gipsies, they are the caste of musicians what else. In Europe their contribution and influence in european peoples' music is often underestimated.
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MA I am glad you liked Rada singing. And, eh, dancing. :o)
I thought will remind you a bit of the area, plus-minus approximately, from where your moustached great grandpapa was, in Europe. :o)
For I thought :o))))) if that link :o)))) won't stir in you some sympathies :o))))) to the land of the forebears forebearers? , native land - in Europe -
nothing else will help!
:o))))))))))
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WA;
"if that link :o)))) won't stir in you some sympathies :o))))) to the land of the forebears forebearers? , native land - in Europe -
nothing else will help!"
Nothing will. I have no sympathies, connections, or anything in common with those lands, the people of those lands, my forebearers, or anyone or anything else that does not have a direct connection to my own life. The furthest back I go is my own grandparents who had lived in America for almost half a century before I was born. All I know is they left those places for reasons, good reasons I'm sure. Looking at those places today, if I was born and lived in one of them...I'd have left long ago as well. They mean nothing to me. I accept them for what I see them to be, for better or more often for worse. Why should I care what happens to them? If someone claiming to be my long lost relative from one of them ever found me, what is the second thing they'd do after telling me how happy they are to meet me and want to know me? The obvious answer is....ask for money and a way to come here so that I can support them. NO THANKS!
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324 webalice and 327 Homer Simpson etc etc
Oh the power of cheap music!!!
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"David Cameron is expected to go on the attack over Europe next week, accusing his rivals of ceding control over British life to Brussels.
...
The Conservative leader’s focus on Europe ... may also turn attention to his decision to abandon a promise to hold a referendum on the EU’s Lisbon Treaty."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7599620/General-Election-2010-David-Cameron-to-go-on-attack-over-single-currency.html
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If Cameron does decide to bang on about "Europe" then it won't get me to vote for him as I will consider it to be merely a ploy. I have been watching the somersaults of politicians in relation to "Europe" for over thirty-five years and I have seen good acting from them far too often.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7599620/General-Election-2010-David-Cameron-to-go-on-attack-over-single-currency.html
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2x2 is cheap mathematics, but much was built on it.
Likewise music; lives were lived with songs.
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WA;
I'd call Maggie Coward a European elitist snob but that would be redundant.
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I am prepared to declare this thread dead if nobody else is willing.
I wonder what Hewitt really does for a living?
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#156 MagicKirin
´But it is still a fact that Jews are still discriminated world wide far far more than any other ethnic group´
Your knowledge of discrimination in this world appears to be minimal.
The scourge of slavery and its resulting discrimination all over the Americas, Arabia and Asia beats ( if that is your point) Anti-Semitism against Jews.
European Anti-Semitism forced Jews into the ´dishonorable professions ´ of Medicine, Banking and Law, the descendants of slaves still do not have that luxury.
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acorn for a brain
You left out "MONEYLENDERS." Why don't you just come out and say "Shylock?" Some of us know how you and those of your views think and my opinion of it is that your kind are unfit for mixed company.
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dt, if you don't want to discuss discrimination in Europe in general and against Gypsies in Hungary in particular, you could go back to previous threads or wait for the next one to come up. Like the sun, they always do. Perhaps it will be more to your liking. BTW, some scientists are watching another volcano in Iceland. If it blows, it may be an order of magnitude bigger. No planes for you, you're grounded!
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what do you mean, "dead"? when ab to be eh, bucket kicking - that's when starts Russian humour :o)))
____________
- Excuse me, are you Russian?
- Judging by the salary - yes...
:o))))
The customer, reading his morgage agreement big and small print stopped and looked at the bank manager.
- Anything worrying you ?
- No no. If only... Here, on page 136. "...and then the credit agreement account number is branded by hot iron on the customer's forehead :o))))))))))))
- "Crisis" - it's when there is no money?
- No, "crisis" is when there WERE money. And when there is no money - it's normal life.
Yesterday, into the on-going session of the State Duma there broke in two armed bandits.
Apologised for being late, and took their places in the section of party ... :o))))))))))
- Is it really, that your bank gives credits upon honest customer word?
- Sure.
- And what if I won't return you the money?
- Well, in that sad case, you will stand up before the God Highest Judgement and answer Him.
- I suppose, at my age, it is not soon that we will meet.
- If you won't return the money by the 5th - on the 6th you will.
:o))))))
Some people think that "raging nineties" in Russia were purely accidental.
It isn't so.
During decades the powers were telling people that capitalism - it's theft and banditism. And then Yeltsin and Gaydar declared that "Tovarischee, we should all now become capitalists."
The people simply fulfilled the targets set by the party and government :o)))))))))
News of the currency exchange market.
The weight of the American currency has again decreased a small amount and as per today equals 2,53 American currency per one bottle.
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Poor thread. RIP.
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OKKKK
Its true I dislike W. Europe too for its anti-semitism as well...it is THE MOST anti-semitic place EXCEPT FOR
the underground tunnels OF Gaza Strip. There I said it....and I do think its TRUUUUUUUUE.
But otherwise y'all are ok. Just never wear Jewish headgear or say the word Israel (substitute Palestine, and one is ok) and Europeans are...um....ok.
Though at least Eastern Europeans who are more kin to America will admit their prejudices. While Western Europeans .....
AFTER HAVING RID EUROPE OF ALL THE JEWS ...YES YOU.. YOU... YOU, ACTUALLY YOUR RELATIVES....DID IT, IT HAPPENED IN EUROPE ...CAN U SPELLL EUROPE? ...ALL THE JEWS WERE INCINERATED, BUT...OK BLAME IT ON THE GERMANS YOU JUST DID AS YOU WERE TOLD BY THEM NASTY NAZIS AND WHO KNOWS WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE UNDER THE SAME THREATENING GUNS...PROBABLY KILLED ME SOME JEWS
But no one in W. Europe realizes their role so instead they hate Jewry (not Jewelry..that they love) and they accordingly and sneeringly hate the Israeli Lobby (that mean ol lobby who pushes greater Israel and has very big plans for you W. Europeans when they get you and your land).....ewwwwwww eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
But, Marcus IS RIGHT ABOUT W EUROPEANS THEY DO HATE THEM SOME JEWS----BIG TIME.
OOOOOPS DID I REALLY JUST SAY ALL THAT????omgggggggggggggggggggg
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Sorry no real offense meant, its just truth and truth can be ugly
You Know the old saying...
_____em if they can't take a joke:)
Have a pleasant wkend
Now what were you saying Web Alice, Nik, Generalissimo, and other East Europeans? Oh they are funny...anyway continue:)
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Careful dt, your tyrannical European mind is showing again. What exactly do you expect other people who post here to do, give up this thread and wait for one to come along that is more interesting to YOU because YOU say so?
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I said something mean about antisemitism in W Europe so I got referred,
Sorreh
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So, I figured the only ones speaking to me would be Eastern Europeans.
Sorry, really, but...oh well...forget it.
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I guess the moderators are well intentioned...they saved my relationships with everyone (in W. Europe) here,
Thank you Moderators...(no one ever thanks them...enough)
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Well, at least Web Alice has a lot of good Russian jokes to keep us entertained :)
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@308 Huaimek
Thanks for the information. The "West Side Story" remains the classic masterpiece describing the horrible consequences of any discrimination based on ethnic principle. MA was right for remember it.
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Also, remember this
Gays are treated much better in Europe than in America
That says alot...
TO MEEEEE
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BTW, my intelligence was tested as a child and...
like all other posters here, it was off the charts(oo so impressed w/self..bk then)
Like many others reality sat in..:((
And poor poverty stricken career started--meaning
there is NO DEMAND,
So I read fiction which is well written, tell myself it is literature and therfore read the great bestsellers....
World War Z--I recommend it to all lovers of entertaining horror type books..its written with documentary lovers in mind and achieves a grand and sublime(?) atmosphere and plot.
Forget boring reality of accountants and newspapers and society columns and please consider it as one book on your "list."
In other words, "take a load off," sit, read, relax.
And ty Viewcode for the link to a book "companion" online.
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#343
DT this thread died at post #4, which is carbon-copy of his thread killing contributions in other blogs. Mind you he probably gets off on the very notion.
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Gavin Hewitt's article about politics in Hungary, and the result of the recent election, was summed up perfectly by my 19 year old university student son:
"The previous government was corrupt. The new government is corrupt and racist."
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nonsense offramp;
"DT this thread died at post #4, which is carbon-copy of his thread killing contributions in other blogs."
Had I known I was so effective, I'd have tried harder to make it number #1. Funny it didn't seem to deter 351 more postings afterwards so far including about 14 of yours. That's about one in every 25 you posted. It's a good thing for the rest of us that I did then or it might have been one out of every two....or worse.
If you think this thread has been dead sice #4, then why do you keep posting on it or do you just get off on the sound of your own cyber voice?
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Thank you, Magyartwolips. I agree with you completely. However, FIDESZ have their own own clever ways to selling themselves as a presentable Christian-Democratic, slightly right-wing party, so the country will hopefully not face embargo, as Mr Orbán's dear late friend Jorg Haider's Austria did. (I believe that people can change for the better, see the example of the nice ex-terrorist Joschka Fisher....he became a quite peaceful Minister of Foreign Affairs in Germany, haha.)
Furthermore, they have the amazing ability to take advantage of expressedly right-wing extremists and populists and then get rid of them elegantly. (Remember what happened to FKGP during their last regime. I think Jobbik's supporters came from their voting base, that is to say, people who are responsive to the same cheap rhetoric.)
Despite all these (that they will surely slice Jobbik up, that is-they can't bear powerful rivals in the same National Assembly), I am quite concerned about their absolute victory. For obvious reasons, I probably don't have to explain this to anyone.
So Jobbik will be past tense soon, but I fear their legacy will be present for a long time. The fact that the Roma-question was addressed in a wrong (or rather no)way, that the Hungarian government's level of communication with Slovakia and Romania was unprofessional and way below standards, will create enough tension for the next couple of decades.
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#340 MarcusAurellius
My contribution #339 was simply to emphasize that MagicKirin ( and perhaps yourself) have never travelled to South America or India with open eyes.
The Sinti and Roma are discriminated against wherever they live in Europe (also by elected officials). Jews have a higher social standing in most European Societies.
The apparent lacking of MagicKirin and yourself to have been taught Sociology 101 by a Jewish professor, your very limited travel experiences and the ignorance of the Eastern European Jiddish societies hardly enhances the quality of your contributions.
Have you recovered ?
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Btw, talking of Icelanders...they ave the oldest Parliamentarian Democracy in the world. How great is that...
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#343 commonsense_expressway
"DT this thread died at post #4, which is carbon-copy of his thread killing contributions in other blogs. Mind you he probably gets off on the very notion."
I agree. But with the risk of being a little bit naïve, even inadequate, I will myself allow remind you that Marcus is just another of many Americans who still believe that the American interpretation of the democratic traditions is the most successful one, thus ignoring the contribution and the experience of the European democracies in the long, painful and progressive development of our societies. He proved to be equally critical to some evident gaffs of the Bush administration and to all those last events pertaining with the Greek fiscal crisis. He’s not at all so narrow minded as some fellow bloggers here might qualify him. On the contrary, he proved to be well informed on numerous issues, to start with the reasons of the global recession and to finish with the succession of all those events in Moscow, in Prague, in Smolensk and in Krakow.
What I really can not understand is the fact that Marcus is using the same code of values /as many of us/ when he tries to assess the events Gavin Hewitt is covering here. However the result is quite different. For Marcus everything that comes from old Europe is negative, antihuman, not working… One would ask himself why he’s continuing to post here. Maybe he’s there for the same reasons that motivate Alice of St.Petersburg to do it? The blog is European, isn’t it?
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#356
MarcusAurelius just looked into a mirror and tried to break it ?
Mirror, mirror on the wall -----
It is rather pathetic when you feel that 16 hours/ day, 7days/ per week blogging is enough to justify anyones existence on this planet.
I suppose you secretly thank the BBC for the opportunity ?
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acorn for a brain;
I can only speak for myself. I've been to South America twice, the first time i 1984. I've seen those countless shacks on the hills between La Guira and Caracas. (I've seen comparable in Mexico which is not in South America.) I knew there would be trouble there. I knew that crime had become an enormous problem by 1998. And I know repeating the failed dogmas of Communism that killed off any hope in Eastern Europe, Cuba, and North Korea won't work in South America either. Evidently South Americans will have to learn that the hard way for themselves, let's hope it doesn't take them 44 or 72 years.
Your statement about me studying sociology with a Jewish professor (he was as WASP as they come and was hounded out of my engineering school by the students themselves who detested his left wing radical ideas that were popular in the liberal arts colleges and universities) is as racist as you can get. That you think I don't have eyes that see what is going on in the world and can't draw my own conclusions but must be indoctrinated can only be based on your own experience and training. I watched the way students were taught what to think when I was in school in Europe, not how to think and draw their own conclusions. It is small wonder they can't think for themselves. They endlessly repeat the mindless political mantras and slogans of their favorite political parties. I can't help it if you and they suffer from atrophy of the mind, that is your problem not mine.
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#357
ex-terrorist Joschka Fischer ?????
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#343 commonsense_expressway
However, I should add that if I have correctly got what you said about the death of this thread, then we should agree with what MA has fired here under #4…(!?)
P.S.: Sorry for having intervened. You are not obliged to comment.
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Yea, google it.
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generalassimo;
"But with the risk of being a little bit naïve, even inadequate, I will myself allow remind you that Marcus is just another of many Americans who still believe that the American interpretation of the democratic traditions is the most successful one"
I am hardly alone. When one million Chinese demonstrated against the tyranny of the Communist Party of China in Tiananmen Square in Beijing, they chose as their Goddess of Democracy the Statue of Liberty, iconic symbol of the United States of America recognized around the world by all people including in that then closed society where the government controlled everything their people saw or heard about the outside world. Not Big Ben, not the Eiffel Tower, not the Acropolis, not anything else. What an inconvenient fact that is for your argument.
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The Statue of Liberty came from France.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty
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No enormous surprises.
Everyone knew that Fidesz (right-conservative) would win, that the socialist party would lose, and that Jobbik (thinly veiled fascists) would get a high percentage.
There are two problems with the election results, and these will haunt the country for a while.
The smaller problem is that Jobbik got a serious portion of the vote, and they'll be screaming and frothing at the mouth on every international forum for the next 4 years ruining any reputation the country may have left.
The bigger problem is that Fidesz has an absolute super-majority in Parliament. All other parties got peanuts. Only relying on their MPs, they can *change the constitution*, pass any budget, they can basically do whatever they want.
Effectively there is no opposition at all for the next four years (well, or more, they can even change the election laws if they want to).
And this from the party that 1998-2002 ran the then-functional economy into the ground, originally started the spending spree that people now blame the socialists for continuing, and, most worryingly, had the tendency to pull every aspect of public life under government control.
(Sample incident from back then: Fidesz couldn't pass the budget because of opposition votes. They had the gates to Parliament blocked and wouldn't let socialist MP's through - passed the budget with barely quorum, but 90% yes votes from those present. PM's take on the issue on the news that evening: "Well, I think Parliament can function perfectly without an opposition.")
Now they don't need to worry - all other parties simply don't matter.
The socialists may not be much better in terms of corruption & all.
But - exactly because there was no one sensible to vote for, one party getting such an overwhelming majority that the country is their playground is very, very dangerous.
Hungary is in serious trouble now - but I predict it will only go down from here.
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Ave Maria;
Has it occurred to you that if this thread died with my posting at #4 it is because my argument was so overwhelmingly obviously correct by the preponderence of accepted evidence that there was nothing more to be said about it? The rest have been mere details confirming it and feeble and pathetically futile refutations of it by those in self denial. Re-reading it, that's how it seems to me. I understand your anger but it is misdirected, it should target your fellow Europeans, not the messenger who reminds you of what you already know to be true. Others who have accepted it seeing there was nothing they could do to change it picked themselves up and left...by the hundreds of millions over the centuries. Perhaps collectively the largest mass migration in human history. Most of them came here to America to start a new life for themselves, having rejected being part of the old one in the old world.
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Besides, Big Ben is just a clock, And La Tour...is just an engineering construction. They do not symbolise anything. I quite like the idea of The Statue though...it also represents the friendship between two nations fighting against common goals. I can completely identify with that.
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Mariana Trench;
"The Statue of Liberty came from France."
What is your point? It is a symbol of America, America's freedom, America's democracy. The whole world knows that. How many know or even care where it came from?
"I quite like the idea of The Statue though...it also represents the friendship between two nations fighting against common goals."
Yes, it often seems the US and France fight at cross purposes doesn't it. Like when the US invaded Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein and his barbaric Baathist fascist party who were perceived as a dire threat to the US and the region while France did everything it could to keep him in power so that corrupt French businessmen with influence could keep making large profits from circumventing the UN sanctions and the French could hope Iraq would join with al Qaeda to attack the US again.
How clever you Europeans are. You need a centralized tyranny just to keep you from fighting another war in Europe just the way Europeans did once every generation or two going back thousands of years until America became the sigle most most powerful military entity in Europe to keep the peace these last six and a half decades. America won't stick around Europe to stop those games forever, an EUSSR being the only viable alternative in many European eyes.
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#371
Calm down mate and go get yourself some Freedom Fries,Freedom Toast or perhaps a Freedom Kiss. Perhaps we could Freedom Plait your hair - if you have any left what with all that stress. Fancy a game of Freedom skipping or Freedom cricket?
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#360 Generalissimo
If you read carefully the contributions of MarcusAurellius you will see he has only ONE aim and that is to defend Israel and its West Bank settlers from any criticism.
He is a great believer in the ´Never Again´ Kahane movement which infiltrated North American universities in the 60´s . On the whole, Jewish intellectuals rejected its Fascist views, but many in the Israeli government ( and all of the settler groups ) still adhere to the belief of an enlarged Jewish state.
His constant praise of the American political right and far-right goes only as far their support for Israel and its actions - No matter what they be. If some of the American groups change their support for Israel MarcusA. will be shouting Anti-Semitism as loud as he can.
The constant criticism of Europe should be seen no more than a smoke screen for his true intentions.
The knowledge only goes as far where he can deny or conveniently forget the role of Jews at all levels of American or European culture ( even Communism) if they conflict with his idea of an Israeli Super State.
He is not only blind to Fascism but I also have doubts concerning his allegiance to America.
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#365
You give the reliable source or retract the dumb statement !
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What big teeth you have, Grandma!
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Marcus,
I am not angry at all, especially not at my fellow Europeans. Sad maybe...I believe that most people in my country think exactly the same way as I do (namely that they want solidarity on all levels of society, they want a corruption-free, fair government, stronger police presence and way out of economic regression.)
And there are better, already existing alternatives to deal with the Roma question than the "solution" Jobbik offers. I come from a little village, where half the population is of an ethnic minority. There are two educational institutions present, a nursery school and an elementary school. In the first institution a high-quality job is done, in the latter...let's not classify it. In the first institution parents are allowed to have their say, they take part in the maintenance of its buildings, parks, in organizing events, they can discuss budget problems and all this is coordinated by a competent leader who carefully selected her team. Sometimes there are minor conflicts, but these are settled peacefully. In the latter institution sometimes violent conflicts take place owing to the fact that the incompetent, weak leader does not give enough support to her employees, takes sides, does not encourage communication between parties. (No one is discriminated against anyone there, by the way. It is against the law.)These two institutions deal with exactly the same people.
Maybe the methods of the first institution should be applied on a higher level as well, thus making people understand that if they cooperate, they can benefit from the common good. (On a small scale: beautiful parks, playgrounds, clean and healthy environment, lots of fun things to do and a sense of usefulness.) I have seen this working, so it's not just some fairy tale.
I love my country and I love Europe. I hope Hungarians will vote wisely in the second round (In all probability they will not, but you will see some difference in percentages already.)
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Generalissimo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joschka_Fischer
It is quite lengthy, so in a nutshell:
Joschka Fisher was born in Hungary, and as a German national, he and his family was expelled from the country by the Communists after WWII. In his youth he became a leader of "Proletarische Union für Terror und Zerstörung" (Proletarian Union for Terror and Destruction), and they carried out a series of violent actions, for which he later publicly apologized.
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acorn for a brain;
"He is a great believer in the ´Never Again"
You seem to be a believer in "we'll get the job done right next time." Why do you think it is illegal in places like Austria to deny that the holocaust ever happened? Because people like you would want to set the stage to do it again. I am an American, not an Israeli. I'd hate Europe even if Israel and Jews never existed. There are so many other good reasons I could hardly count them all. To begin with, Africa, then there's China, then India, then there's Latin America, the Caribbean, and of course what they did to American settlers, not to mention what they did to each other and still do. You are obsessed with only one thing, your hatred for Jews. Perhaps one day if World War III ever breaks out they will finally give you a good reason for it.
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I've been avoiding this board because it's mostly antisemites complaining that it's all the fault of the Jews, antiziganists complaining that it's all the fault of the Roma, and the usual suspects saying "EU is great!"/"EU sucks!"/"Europe is great"/"Europe sucks!"/whatever.
However, anybody wanting an update on the Greece/Euro kerfuffle may want to look at Stephanie Flanders' BBC blog entry here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/2010/04/while_they_were_sniping.html
As for what Hewitt does for a living...well, to be kind, it's an impossible brief. Elections in UK/Netherlands/Hungary, Obama & Medvedev, volcanoes in Iceland, Greece falling apart...it's not possible for one man to cover all this.
Regards, viewcode
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#378
"I'd hate Europe even if Israel and Jews never existed"
After much deliberation your epitaph is finally written. Run along now.
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#366 MarcusAureliusII
“…they chose as their Goddess of Democracy the Statue of Liberty, iconic symbol of the United States of America recognized around the world…”
“…What an inconvenient fact that is for your argument…”
Marcus, in the painful succession of events that has been striking Eastern Europe for the last 20 years, America was just a reference. My family /like many other families here/ is francophone. We linked, subconsciously, the ideas of the French revolution of 1789 with the ideal image of any European democracy /as a matter of fact, Bulgaria was believed to be between 1878 and 1923 a normal constitutional monarchy, i.e. a half or a third part of a democracy according to the present standards/. True, the US had the decisive contribution for the outcome of the economic/political competition between the East and the West. The /soviet type/ totalitarian societies of Eastern Europe lost the cold war. The peoples of DDR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and those of the former Yugoslavia have been given another opportunity, another better choice for organizing their societies. But that fact did not necessarily mean that all those nations that rejected the communist rule were supposed to follow the American type of development. They were gradually trapped by another reality, namely that of the lack of well prepared and responsible leaders who could defend the national interests of each country and that of the ill prepared West European leadership which was somewhat surprised and not ready to meet the challenge of the moment. As a result, the door for the corrupt politicians of any colour was open. For about 10 years or so the results of the new experiment were more than disastrous for almost all of the young democracies here…. But gradually, as you can consult the statistics of the EU, things started to settle down…
You see Marcus, the Statue of the liberty which is the omnipresent image of the New World, is not necessarily accepted here as an iconic symbol of the “liberte, egalite, fraternite” /fr. freedom, equality, fraternity/. Old Europe is so multinational, with so many languages and with so many cultures that, beside the Jesus’ icon maybe, there are no other armorial bearings here that would symbolise our civilisation…
/Note that I am not your perish priest who is supposed to blame you about your unjust and inadequate qualification of the Europeans, subject to your post #4/
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G;
It is understandable that during the era of communist tyranny, few if anybody in Eastern Europe had access to the subversive writings of the likes of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Patrick Henry, Abraham Lincoln, or Martin Luther King, nor of the events and history that swirled around them even though they have been well documented and translated into just about every known language. But what is their excuse for not knowing them 20 years later? These are universal truths. Europe is an ignorant self centered self preoccupied culture which has only disdain for the lessons from the outside it could well afford to learn and use to its own advantage. As a consequence, the real triumph of America that has allowed people from every corner of the earth including those who are at war with each other in the places they and their ancestors came from live peacefully here without the kind of ethnic strife that has torn Europe apart and will continue to until there is nothing left of it. That is reason enough for me to hold Europe in utter contempt.
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#378
I only hate Fascism.
Nothing more nothing less.
Do you remember ´RoyfromVegas ´ the elderly Jewish gentleman who you viciously attacked because he could not accept the brutality of Israel towards the Palestinians ?
Do you remember saying that ´All Israeli Arabs should be executed if they were traitors to Israel ?
Do you remember threatening the world with nuclear extinction if Israel does not get its way ?
Do you remember saying that the ´ American Jewish lobby will keep Obama in his place ?
etc. etc.etc.
If Kahane were alive, he would be proud of you.
´Mein Kampf´ does not need a second volume written by the Kahane worshipers or yourself.
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#382
America, no ethnic strife ?????
Live peacefully here ??????
This is not the America i am living in.
The country is in ruins. If this is the ideal proposed by our great thinkers, I can only advise Europeans not to read them.
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acorn for a brain;
"Do you remember ´RoyfromVegas ´ the elderly Jewish gentleman who you viciously attacked because he could not accept the brutality of Israel towards the Palestinians ?"
Not really but I'll take your word for it. There is brutality on all sides in every war that was ever fought, that is the nature of war. That is one of the things that makes it something to be avoided. The Palestinians should have thought of that before they launched their intifada wars of terrorism to destroy Israel. Perhaps they'd have decided against it, who knows. Most aggressors don't think of the consequences to their people if they lose. Iran isn't thinking about it right now. If Roy from Vegas couldn't stand it that's his problem, not mine or anyone elses. Perhaps he should seek therapy or just avoid reading the newspaper and watching the news on television.
"Do you remember saying that ´All Israeli Arabs should be executed if they were traitors to Israel ?"
I think that most people in most countries think that when they are at war, traitors should be executed. I think so. I think Johnathon Pollard should have been executed. Likewise Jane Fonda should have been executed. The Palestinians just executed two people they accused of collaborating with Israel. Are you suggesting that is only fair for one side and not the other? I'm not surprised, I always felt you had a double standard to rationalize your prejudice against Jews.
"Do you remember threatening the world with nuclear extinction if Israel does not get its way ?"
I never threatened anyone, I don't have nuclear weapons to threaten anyone with. I merely pointed out that if Israel is the nuclear power I and many others presume it to be and it faced with another war to destroy it, it likely has the power to make all human life on earth extinct if it feels its own end is possible. I also pointed out more than one way that could be accomplished. Would they do it? I don't see why not. In their place I would.
"Do you remember saying that the ´ American Jewish lobby will keep Obama in his place ?"
Not precisely but a lot of Americans need to keep President Obama in his place on a lot of issues. He's the President of the Untited States not god and he made commitments and promises during the campaign he is not keeping. He promised to support Isreal and not sell it out but that is exactly what he has done already much to the horror of many of his one time supporters. His process for passing health care insurance reform was one of the worst violations of the US Constitutional process I can remember in my lifetime. His extreme left wing radical policies is what many warned against but what he and his backers assured us was not true. Now that it is turning out that his severest critics were right, his party is heading for being smashed at the polls in November and he is on track to become a one term president unless he changes his tune strongly and quickly back to the center of American mainstream politics. If he keeps it up, he may yet be impeached. If he continues to supplicate America's enemies like Iran he may face charges of treason or a revolt by the military. If Iran is allowed to become a threat to American security and he does not respond forcefully and effectively, I'd support a move to remove him from office.
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#382
Martin Luther King would spin in his grave reading your posts. The necessity of his existence in racist America is to your country's eternal shame, not to its credit.
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acorn for a brain;
"America, no ethnic strife ?????
Live peacefully here ??????
This is not the America i am living in."
Does an American equivalent of ETA set off bombs to created a separte country the way ETA does in the Basque country? No because there is no such thing.
Do people named Mohammed get excluded from ever getting a decent job in America the way the are in France? No that doesn't happen in America.
Do American sports fans make animal noises when atheletes with dark skin take the field they way they do in Spain. No that doesn't happen here either.
Do most Americans of Islamic extraction consider themselves Pakistanis or Arabs and not Americans they way they do in Britain? No that doesn't happen here, they consider themselves Americans just like the rest of us.
Do Skinheads in America beat Turks and then the police do nothing about it when the crimes are reported to them the way it happens in Germany? No that doesn't happen, in fact the FBI works to break up such groups one way or another.
And I could go on and on about minarets in Switzerland, Italy being the most racist country in Europe, the persisting ethnic hatred in the Balkings, hatred between Russians and all other ethnicities in Russia and in countries they colonized like Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine, about ethnic hatred of Hungarians by Slovakians, hatred of the Roma all over Europe. We don't have anything like that in America, not to any significant degree, not anymore.
No you don't live in America, you live in a fantasy of your own making. A fantasy which allows you to justify your own hatreds, your own prejudices, your own fanatical views. You IMO are on what most of us would call the lunatic fringe of American politics. And it is well named.
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Homer Simpson
You sound just like Henry Morgenthau - any relation?
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nonsense expressway;
The existance of racism in America was a legacy left to us largely by Britain who imported African slaves into the US to work the cotton plantations of the South they created and became the underpinning of the economy of the south. They British brought the slaves to America and bought the cotton they produced. The civil war, was the most costly and painful war America ever fought. The aftermath little known or understood by Europeans was a very painful time. A hundred and forty five years after the Civil War ended we are finally seeing the last vestiges of its echoes fade into history. Britain has yet to come to grips with its own racism. Many for example in Britain of Islmaic decent consider themselves Pakistanis, not Brits even though they were born there and many of dark skin feel strongly discriminated against because of their color.
The racism of the British police is legendary.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/21/stephen-lawrence-racism-macpherson-report
Now racism turns its ugly head in Britain against refugees who are treated very badly and often deported back to places they fled where they are subsequently arrested, beaten, murdered. This is a violation of international treaties Britain signed.
Here's what Stephen Lawrence's mother recently had to say about British racism;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/audio/2009/feb/24/lawrence-police
Racism in the police, racism in the schools. 17 years after Lawrence's death and about 10 years after publication of the report, she sees no real improvement. If a nation won't recognize that it even has a problem it will never get fixed. That's where the UK and Europe are today, in a state of denial.
Insofar as Martin Luther King is concerned, we in American celebrate his life with a national holiday.
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Someone posted how difficult it was to speak "Icelandic" language?
I thought that Iceland was first settled by Vikings from Denmark or Norway? Then wouldn't the language spoken in Iceland be either Danish or Norwegian (lightly salted with volcanic ash?
TeaPot562
P.S. How can this thread end if MA keeps disliking EU, and the others keep arguing with him?
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Well, we can set here a linguistic competition. All promise not to look into wiki, and who can translate the name of the chimney best. ?
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Here;
Eyjafjallajoekullon.
Norwegian and Danish permitted. Mathhiasen is disqualified just in case :o)))) or , well, why, he can be the judge.
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By the way it's nothing cheerful. My feeling.
I saw a photo of it taken from above, the three volcano eh? holes currently open. I assure you it looks like a quite a ? what's those scary moveies author? birds, etc? it's a muzzle, and a very un-friendly how to say, one.
(aaaah) (hope has scared all enough and :o)))), encouraged:o)))), how to say.)
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And here some thought it was the wrong time of year for "The Ashes."
First of all WA, chimineys are not at all bad luck for some;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te_Nv3lMUnA
And here is how you pronounce it;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg6vc66foXE
Experts say that the volcano could be blowing its top for years if history is any indication. There's another one much bigger near it they're watching too. So Europe could be without air travel for years to come. They'll have to ride on trains. Now who will be willing to test the airline's theory that it is safe anyway? Think of all the CO2 emissions that will be prevented if Europe is grounded.
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And a conspiracy theory, for Nik. Poles said the sky will be open in several hours after they complete the burial cermonies.
And evening jokes said "Spring eruption of Eyjafjallajoekullon - a variant of the autumn swine flue; a vacine is already in making." :o)))))
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Who's willing to test? :o))))
Medvedev flew Moscow-Warsaw-Moscow today.
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the wrong time of year for "The Ashes"
MA, it's now "The Fog and The Ash" :o))))
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Anyway, we hurry to joke, because if Poles are right the fun will end soon.
A man comes home late at night and drunk.
Wife, meeting him with a frying pan :o)))), on the treshold:
- Where have you been, xxx ?!
- You won't believe it, darling, volcano blown up, everything - as if in fog - hardly found the way home...
- Volcano? Which that what volcano?!
- Eyjauffa.. Eyjaaffa... Ah, the hell - I was drinking with friends, alright?
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WA;
You don't understand...about "The Ashes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashes
They make a big deal about it...like it was the World Series or the Super Bowl or something. Jeeeeze.
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MA :o))))
" Eyjafjallajoekullon, Ahmadinejad, Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - kindergarten breeches on suspenders. Igor Kirillov (TV presenter) in the Soviet programme Time used to say without a run up "Zhugderdemijdijin Gurragcha - first Mongolian cosmonaut."
:o)))))
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#389
You say we are in a state of denial on racism and yet refuse to write down the reason why Martin Luther King was necessary in 1960's America, nearly 200 years after independence from Britain , 100 years after abolition/the Civil War, and 130/160 years after Britain freed its own slaves(depending on which Act you count from). Sorry, blaming Britain doesnt wash, you had long enough to solve the problem. Between 1808 and 1860, the (British) West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard. What was America doing about slavery whilst the British were doing this? Zip, nada. Even the emancipation declaration was political expediency in order to bring hundreds of thousands of black soldiers to the Union army and make the intervention of France and Britain on the Confederate side morally impossible.
The book "The American Occupation of Britain 1943-1945, with an American author whose name escapes me, writes that black GI's posted in Britain were treated far better by their British hosts than by their own side, being kept in segregated units. They wrote that for the first time in their lives, they were treated as human beings by white people. It was the continuation of that attitude in post-war America that lead to the Civil Rights movement 20 years later.
Blame Britain, Blame Europe. It's a stuck record on the turntable of your life.
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"dt, if you don't want to discuss discrimination in Europe in general and against Gypsies in Hungary in particular"
Congratulations, you are one of the ppl who turned this into a personal psycho-rant about how someone tried to fondle in france 40 years ago or smthng, instead of discussing the above. : ) I tried to make some points about that situtation to you and others, and asked some seriuos to-the-point questions, and of course nobody could even attepmt to answer those. What a surprise: ) No wonder, it screams that at most pll here are just like the rest 'out there': completely clueless commonplace junkies... that includes you too : ))
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@ 387 Marcus wrote:
"No you don't live in America, you live in a fantasy of your own making. A fantasy which allows you to justify your own hatreds, your own prejudices, your own fanatical views. "
Please tell me your trying to be ironic...
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Racism, anti-racism, people lose the heart of the issue.
Anyway, can anyone explain me how on earth is it possible that all anti-racists have an average salary that is from 80% to 250% more than the average salary of those they accuse as racists and how on earth are they anti-racists when it is those they accuse as racists that live with the groups the anti-racists try to defend - however if these groups moved inside the vicinity of a radious of about 10km near the anti-racists' houses, the latter would change immediately house?
I have seen this trend in Britain, in France, in Belgium, in Holland, in Germany, in Italy, in Greece, and in Turkey (where they are lightyears ahead of us, they have private cities with private police etc. US-style!).
If I bet the same trend holds true in Hungary too, why do I think I would win it hands down? Who wants to give my some money?
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@382 MA
"Europe is an ignorant self cantered self preoccupied culture which has only disdain for the lessons from the outside it could well afford to learn and use to its own advantage".
How does it happened that the EU is the first economic and the third most inhabited entity /after China & India/ if it were as retrograde as described above? How does it happen that all of its member states have different cultures, languages and traditions, a fact that does not prevent them from living together without check points, “Charlie”?
Marcus, I think it is high time to reconsider both your highly apologetic pleading of the US democracy and your negative, sometimes totally inadequate assessment of the European democracies… Note that you are maybe the grandson of some English, Scottish, Irish, French, Spanish, Polish, even Russian settler…/Alaska was Russian until 1867!/. It could be that you and Alice of St.Petersburg, both you had the same ancestors!?
Cheers friend!
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"Racism, anti-racism, people lose the heart of the issue."
most pepole are rather simple: they think racism is something that caucasian men of western culture do to others, or even worse, it's anything that caucasians of western culture do to anybody else. That belief in itself is of course racism btw, even if comes form caucasian of western upbringing : ) But I'm wasting too much word for this, it's the widespread phenomenon called 'dumbness' : )
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Genitalissamo;
"How does it happened that the EU is the first economic and the third most inhabited entity /after China & India/ if it were as retrograde as described above?"
It's simple, if you put enough of anything together, even manure, you will have the largest pile of it in the world. But even manure is good for something, growing strawberries for instance. What is the EU good for? Oh yes, bailing out Greece...and getting the US to bomb Serbia when it can't do the job itself because it is paralyzed.
"How does it happen that all of its member states have different cultures, languages and traditions, a fact that does not prevent them from living together without check points"
Looks like the people who live there set up their own checkpoints to keep each other out since the governments won't. For example, there are still over 40 walls in Belfast to keep people who are the other from crossing the street into your own neighborhood. If you are the wrong ethnicity, wrong race, wrong religion and go to the wrong part of a country, the hospitality of the people who live there will make you wish there had been a checkpoint to keep you out. Well I assume that medical service in the emergency room is free if you survive the ordeal...and the waiting list.
Funny how people in Europe who felt free to bash America without reserve incessently or who simply let it pass are so angry when the shoe is on the other foot even coming from just one person. Get used to it. I'm sure there will be many others all over the world who feel the same way. Perhaps one day some of them may even speak out about it.
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@ Marcus
"Funny how people in Europe who felt free to bash America without reserve incessently or who simply let it pass are so angry when the shoe is on the other foot even coming from just one person."
Felt free? As in past tense? No no no, America-bashing is what any good European does when confronted with something garish and low-brow, like when they met you ;-) .
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408.
You seem to be determined to put as negative a possible spin on the crimes/problems of European states but suffer a bout of selective memory loss whenever anyone mentions the crimes/problems of the good ol' US of A.
You select the parts of others posts that you can reply to without breaking the above rule.
You dont try to apologise for the actions of your goverment, you just deny that anything happenend. I honestly think that is the more dangerous of the 2 options you are determined to limit yourself to (the other being justfying the crimes).
Yes Europe has a lot of problems, but unlike you I will not try to justfy these by pointing out the crimes of others.
I will simply ask you one question. How can you say you hate Europe because of all the crimes various member states have committed throughout history (and there are a hell of a lot to chose from), yet completley ignore all the crimes that the nation you are so proud of has committed?
A few examples - You talk about racism but ignore the fact that America was segregated until the 60's.
Or the fact that you talk about Europe in Africa, but conviently forget that up until the early 90's America was assinating democratically elected presidents in your long suffering southern cousins lands (Latin America).
I am not trying to say American crimes are the most serious (as I am sure that all countrys would have behaved the same way, protect your own interests regardless of the human cost) I am just surprised that you are unable to face the fact that your counrty is just as bad as the rest.
There is no morale high ground when discussing the activities of any nation state.
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@ 408 MarcusAureliusII
"Well I assume that medical service in the emergency room is free if you survive the ordeal".
Well said Mark. I am sure now that the dream of Dr. Martin Luther King has come completely true in America, whilst all over the old continent of Europe we should take care to avoid meeting wolves, bears and other ethnicities... We have been duly warned by your post Mark. Thanks a lot...
Sofia, april 19th 2010
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Haha Marcus. I think the EU Comission should employ you full-time. You are best at helping Europeans unite over something...
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#411
Following the hundreds of hate crimes carried out against anyone "who looked like the enemy" following 9/11. Source USA Today.
"Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations. “‘But I know a Muslim man who has a Bosnian wife, and he’s sending his family back to Bosnia for safety. That tells you something"
Dr King would turn in his grave.
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Skipping past MAII's silly chatter, I would like to suggest that indeed there is still quite a lot that Europe and Europeans can learn from America. People in America have many more opportunities to get directly involved with how their country is run than Europeans do. The non-existent "referendum" about the EU constitution is a case in point. And it does come across as slightly odd that one referendum after the other is being put to the Swiss people about joining the EU, after the Swiss have repeatedly decided not to join it. You can bet your bottom coin that the Swiss will not be asked anymore once they have joined, the same way that no European nation has been asked whether or not they would like to leave the EU. This in itself, however, does not make the EU a "prison" or dictatorship. In America, it is against the law for a state to cecede - a legal fact that results from the American civil war. But the point is that Europeans are never asked about anything that concerns them. Everything is decided in Brussels, particularly by the commission. And the commission lacks democratic legitimacy.
This is in urgend need of reform. Of course, its current democratic deficits does not make the EU a full-blown dictatorship like Belarus or a quasi-dictatorship like Russia. But it is not an exemplary democracy like America, either. If there is no root-and-branch democratic reform in Europe really soon, then there is trouble ahead. We Europeans cannot be sitting on the fence indefinitely. We will have to choose between dictatorship and tyranny. Both are options within a united Europe. Both are very real prospects.
I would suggest that the success of radical parties in Denmark, Hungary, the Netherlands, France and the UK is an expression of a very real and growing frustration the European people have with the way their voice in administrative and political decisions is gradually taken away from them.
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Re: Pronounciation and memory...
Can any poster name Russian cosmonauts who died BEFORE Gagarin?
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#385 MarcusAurellius
You do have a short memory.
I suggest all contributors read the original contributions, especially those who wish to understand his rantings.
Have Your Say ---What Next for US- Israeli relations. ( Begin 16 March 2010 )
An honorable elderly Jewish gentleman ( RoyinVegas) # 1223 21 March 10.01 pm. 2010
expressed humanitarian views on the the Palestinian- Israeli conflict.
MarcusAurellius viciously replied #1229.
Those who were not in an American university in the 60´s have probably never heard of the Fascist Jewish Kahane movement. Most Jewish intellectuals rejected it, also a gentleman ´RoyinVegas´
MarcusAurellius showed his true Brown self.
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#414 Chris Camp
Have you ever been to America and seen the mess it is in, both physically and mentally ?
The country is in ruins ,with rights for the rich and jail for the poor as the infrastructure crumbles. No-go areas after dark in most of the large decaying towns. Poverty and desperation is normal for its citizens. One pay-check away from the street and one cough from a bankrupting grave.
Many European countries ( for all their faults) have eliminated abject poverty. America has not.
That is the wish of American voters ???
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I never said America was flawless. But there are many things to be had in-between "flawless" and "we cannot learn anything from them".
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#419
such as ?
I see some parts of Europe as an extension of the Feudal system but all of America as the ´Robber Baron´ system.
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Direct participation in legislation. Complete freedom of expression. A much more open society...
... you know what? - Just forget it. You are MAII's mirror image. Both positions (anti-European American chauvinism on the one hand and anti-American European chauvinism) are just inane in my opinion. I am sorry, but I do not have the patience to debate you or MAII.
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MA-II
Insofar as Martin Luther King is concerned, we in American celebrate his life with a national holiday.
Sure, but in the few years after his "I have a dream" speech and his assasination (which, together with those of the Kennedys, marked the 1960s in the USA, and is presumably NOT celebrated), he spoke out against the Vietnam war. Yet you state that Jane Fonda should have been prosecuted/killed because of her trip to Hanoi. So why are you now so positive about King, while so negative about another one of the anti-war protesters in the 1960s ? Or don't you deal in logic/consistency ?
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#421 Chris Camp
Sorry about your decision, really.
But you are correct. Between #419 and #421 their may be contradictions concerning our experiences.
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#422 smroet
Please do not confuse MA-11 with your logic.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
dt #338
"I am prepared to declare this thread dead if nobody else is willing."
That was over 90 postings and 24 hours ago. I'm glad you're not the county coroner where I live. You'd have sent a lot of perfectly healthy people to their grave :-)
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It is interesting that nobody is mentioning League of Nations (LON)in the context of that article. With all my respect to "experts" on that threat I want to remind everybody that LON created as a result of Versailles Peace Treaty had developed the elaborated system of Minorities Protection Laws. Those minorities LON cared so much about were created out of thin air as a direct result of Europe borders changing by Versailles Treaty.
Hence international laws to protect those people were set.
And Hitler used the existence of those minorities protection laws extensively to consolidate Germans in all countries against the rest of Europe.
Now you do not think Europeans are too short on memory, do you?
I think it is funny that Europe is going in circles like blind horse.
Anybody knows what I am talking about?
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... you are certainly not referring to the Russian minority in Ukraine or Bielorussia for example where more than 40% of the population ethnically identifies itself as Russian. These are not minorities!
Anyway we live in the era of the rule of minorities over the majorities. It is also a means of power too. If anything it is the easiest way to interefer inside other countries.
Countries that had not substantia miniroties now they obtain them through illegal immigration so they will in turn play the game.
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@413
I am really sorry to have mentioned Dr.King's name here. The interpretation of my post @411 could lead anyone into error. His dream is not yet completely realised in Eastern Europe, though every government here does pretend to have taken the necessary steps for granting equal rights to all ethnic groups...
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Nik,
I'm utterly amazed by your reluctance to bring "genocidal-maniac Turkey" into subject in every single blog I've read, no matter what the actual topic is. Any blog I read I do a ctrl+f and search for the word "Turk" and you're there. You are so scared to have anything to do with Turks that you're offering to send your photos to some strangers on internet just to prove you don't look like a "turkomongol" (if that's even a word) now? That's a new low
You should perhaps get interested in other fields in life like, I dunno, science & technology, sports, movies, nature etc other than spitting out your weird hatred on everywhere you can post on the net.
It is also funny you're casting stones around in THIS particular subject when there are so many reports against Greece in this very issue. Now I feel another stone coming my way. How bout banging the rock on your head a little first?
Your loving "turkomongol" neighbor,
Bora
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Nik;
"... you are certainly not referring to the Russian minority in Ukraine or Bielorussia for example where more than 40% of the population ethnically identifies itself as Russian. These are not minorities!"
One generation's legal migration (colonization) is another generation's illegal settlements. It all depends on who it is, when it happens, and who hates who the most.
dt isn't around to talk about the minarets or how it is that a nation that makes nothing of importance, merely chocolate, cheese with holes in it, overpriced wristwatches based on long antiquated technology, and a banking sector which pays among the lowest interest rates in the world can be so wealthy and have such a high standard of living. Makes you wonder how much of the world's illegally gotten gains still line the coffers of Swiss banks and the pockets of Swiss bankers. If a rising tide floats all boats, the Swiss economy is buoyed by an ocean of ill gotten gains.
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Re432: Hmmm yes Marcus but in the case of Ukraine and Bielorussia we are not talking about any immigration. Bielorussia is a completely artificial state taken out of Russian (and some Polish in the west) territory, thus Russians there did not find themselves through immigration or something. This is the land where the Novgorod Russian feudal kingdom was when the ancient Russian capital of Kiev was lost to Mongols.
Re: Bora... Bora Bora... what did I mention here? I mentioned Turkey in a series of many other countries I have visited where I saw the phenomenon of private cities being somehow more expanded (i.e. not solely for the extremely rich but also for the upper classes) - just like the US. That was not any direct accusation against Turkey or Turks. I was saying that the same tedency exists in all countries to varying extent. If you do not like people to talk about your country I take it back, I have no particular problem over that.
Now you should note that the bulk of my references to Turkey have been made in the threads about Greece and the general geopolitical issues of the region out of which the 12 miles issue is a major one. You might ignore it in Turkey but the issue is there: Greece has the right and obligation to increase its sea & airspace to a 12 miles zone according to international treaties that Turkey itself too has signed, Turkey threatens with war. That is the reality, what can we do? Change it and say whatever? If you do not like to listen to such that your problem, change discussion, chose a different issue.
I have replied to the quite offensive texts of Chris (either he wanted to offend or he did by total ignorance) calling me Albanian, Turk, Bulgar and anythign else than what I am. I have no problem with people having their identities as Albanians, Turks or Bulgrarians, I find not these nations as "offensive" in themselves but they integrally or even partly having absolutely nothing to do with what I am and where I come. That is what I said to Chris: I look unlike a Turk, unlike a Bulgarian or any other Slav, unlike an Albanian. You claim to be a neighbour you should know better. Do not try to call me a racist for telling the truth, in tis case, perhaps due to his ignorance, Chris Camp has been extremely racist against me - there is nothing worse attacking people for what they are and that is what he did to me. I simply replied in a smart, often bitter-ironic and sometimes plain joking manner (I cannot take such views as seriously you see).
Last but not least you mention the "turkomongol" as something negative and as-if something we say as an accusation to you. BUT this is something you yourselfs say for yourselfs. Your state taught you are of Mongolic Turkish origins back in the 1930s and officially that is what you represent till today. I do not know if you like it or not, if you agree fully, partially or not at all, it is up to you to do an inner search and find out who you really are and much less up to us Greeks (or whoever else) to speak on your behalf. Us Greeks called you muslims up to the 19th century and even the name "Turk" meant the muslim - eg. I am a Greek but if I changed religion to islam, I would be simply a Turk nothing else. It is you (or Kemal) that came up with the full turkomongolic storyline, we Greeks simply repeat what you call yourselfs. If you change tomorrow we will repeat the same, we will respect your self determination.
If you want to know my own opinion about Turks, it is complex and simple at the same time - but I will not give myself an answer, actually the answer was given by the Turks themselves as early as the 12th century, in 1174 2-3 days after an indicisive battle between Byzantines and Seljuks at Myriokefalon.
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... however I really do loved your description of Switzerland Marcus. Hehe... you see small countries have the flexibility to work that way too. It suffices to attract money laundering to maintain a whole economy. And why shouldn't they do it? They are the last hole of the clarinet, the issue of illegal economy has to be dealt on its root. If the Swiss stop this, there will be Cayman islands, Bermuda or some of the wannabe fiscal paradises in Africa (good for all of them of course). However, it is not Switzerland, not Cayman or Bermuda that cause of indirectly fund international illegal commerce. They just live with it. Quite rogue eh? I do absolutely no moral teaching on them, in fact I would love Greece become a fiscal paradise, it suits the mafia-like attitudes of the people, sometimes I think the corrupt pseudo-socialist-like state was imposed in Greece to avoid it becoming the perfect fiscal paradise.
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@ Bora - there is a political movement in all of the southern Balkans that seeks to "take back" lands that allegedly Turkey "stole" from them. Of course, this is just a thinly-veiled attempt at creating a pretext for stealing land from Turkey. Alas, none of the countries where the grudge exists is strong enough for a war with Turkey.
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"One generation's legal migration (colonization) is another generation's illegal settlements. It all depends on who it is, when it happens, and who hates who the most.
Absolutely. Only has no relation to Belorussia and Ukraine. Because since 800 ad it's not exactly "one generation" :o))))))))))))))
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#435 Chris Camp
´Alas, none of the countries where the grudge exists is strong enough for a war with Turkey.´
Isn´t one warmonger enough on this blog ?
This is the ´Complete freedom of expression ´ you miss in Europe ???
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Re435: Chris, your mention is intersting but you should refer to this in more details. Geographically the only Balcan countries that could potentially have such demands over Turkey are:
1) Greece
2) Bulgaria
The case of Bulgaria cannot be more than obvious: they can hardly demand any lands from Turkey as Bulgarian populations marginally ever lived in the upper part of European Turkey - a question of a line of some kilometers which Bulgaria can hardly be bothered to ask.
The case of Greece is well known: in the 19th century Greeks sought to liberate as many parts as they could from their ancestal lands at the collapse of the Ottoman Empire which was what its name described: an Empire, not any ethnic state. Ancestral lands for Greeks included the whole Aegean space of course, there was no notion of division between Greece and Asia - in fact almost half of the Greek nation lived in Minor Asia and Konstantinople in the 19th century.
There was absolutely no reason to have Athens and Thessaloniki liberated and not Konstantinople and Smyrna. And while the case of Smyrna was quite obvious, it was not any flag city for Turks no more than Thessaloniki (where they had killed/outsted the 90% of Greeks centuries ago to create an almost Greek-free city as a part of the early-ottoman wars), in the case of Konstantinople there were stronger feelings among Turks since they viewed themselves as heirs to the Otttoman Empire, and this city was their 500 years old capital. Yet Turks themselves do not lose the chance to celebrate the conquest i.e. noting themselves that the city was not theirs but stolen (note that currently major Turkish writers demand the end of such celebrations since they are quite embarassing for Turkey as they imbed the idea to Turks themselves that "the city is a stolen city").
However, while Greeks and muslims (Turks) would had found a balance (even in the form of intermediate states), the whole affair was distorted by the interference of Britain that drove things so as to provoke the genocides in Minor Asia and transform the land into a muslim-only, turkish-speaking only land - and here note that the muslim population in Greece had been all the way till 1923 living in Greece (around 200-300,000 people, quite sizeable community) with no fear for their lives (note the first Greek citizen mayor of Thessaloniki was a Turkish muslim (!) and they were forced by the British actually to leave the country to make the genocide in Minor Asia "an exchange of population" and freeze the borders to todays' ones.
Today, almost a century passed. There is no Greek living in Minor Asia, all massacred & cleansed during the genocide (from 1910 to 1922). Even the the 250,000 Greek minority in Konstantinople was cleared following the pongroms of the 1950s with 100s dead and the confiscation of all their properties. The last Greek remnants were on the islands of Imbros and Tenedos (the only islands Turks posses in the Aegean, right in the mouth of Hellespont), these too were kicked out when Turkey transformed the islands into open prisons, i.e. serial killers circulating freely all over the island inside the Greek villages. People unable to defend themselves left in matter of months.
I.e. there are no Greek populations left in Minor Asia and European part of Turkey. More over Turkey followed a model of development that resulted in the eastern populations emigrating to the west coast and the bustling demographics meant that the 10 million muslims of Minor Asia (this without Konstantinople), are now several 10s of millions, let alone the 20 million around Konstantinople - the increasing % of them people from central and eastern Anatolia.
This results in Greeks having no hope to demand anything from Turkey. Even if Greece was considerably stronger militarily (and up to the late 1970s it had stronger navy & airforce and the land army was arguably of better quality) it would have nothing to gain other than adding more trouble. Say in the theoretical annexation of only the European part of Turkey which militarily is feasible by Greece even today (you have to see the geography to understand, defending in Eastern Thrace can be done only by attacking, and attacking from Eastern Thrace requires 7 to 8 times more army than the Greek side, while Turkey has only 3 times more). But then, in case of military success the enlarged Greek state would have 10 million Greeks and 20 million Turks. Which is not very practical unless Greeks treat Turks the way Turks treat Greece, i.e. do massive ethnic cleansing on them. But Greeks did not do that back in the early 20th century when things were hot, it will be more difficult for them to do it in the cold. And then, do not forget that the last thing Greeks want is to have to live next to Turks, the experiment just does not work, Turks beyond appearences (mainly restricted in the... kitchen) are a vastly different culture which is incompatible with the Greek.
The whole affait would had nothing to do with the current financial state of the states, anyway both are bankrupt (in fact Turkey is in worse financial mess, it is just that their economy is still backed-up just like in the case for Greece so many years). To the extend that there is a joke that say that if a new war breaks today nothing much will happen as the countries will simply run out of money in a matter of 2-3 days. So there is absolutely no will and no plan of Greece of having any demands over the state of Turkey.
So Chris, what you note about the "will of Balkan states to attack Turkey" simply do not include any Balkan states at all.
What you say seems to try and hide the reality, i.e. the Kurds. Almost 20 million people living in a 70 million Turkey, that is massive population and keeps on increasing. More than 1 in 4 is not identifying himself ethnically as Turk. That is the danger for Turkey. Not any comeback from Greeks or Bulgarians!
What is important to keep note Chris is that the US while using Turkey as their main arm in the region, thus backing it up on all levels, maintains its grip over the country by fear, fear of dissolution. Turks know that if they do not act upon the will of US next thing they have a massive Kurdish revolution that will threaten the very base of the state. Thus the country remains always under alarm, thus the importance of military in politics, thus you see a Turkish flag on every corner of the street, thus the laws about "insulting turkishness" and other such stories. If Greeks seem to worry about the increasing muslim illegal immigration in Greece (a US plot too for having a grip, there are tons of things to say here) Turks seem to worry about their internal population mostly. That is the image today.
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It's just funny, how this Marcus Aurelius II. speaks naivly about the democracy and the goodness of the States:
1. The so called American democracy is run by weapon sellers and war profiteers. This is fact. Your 'pope', the president of the US is just a puppet in the hands of capitalists. And that silly dualism of Democrats and Republicans. Can't you see, that they are the two hands of a one big Thief? They exist twinned just to create an illusion to the bone-headed persons that there is a choice.
2. About the conflict situations in Europe: The Balkan-wars are part of the special warfares of the States against Europe. The American government invited, however very smartly the figures of Milosevic, Izetbegovic and Tudjman. The were poor devils, who did obey for a fistful of green bucks to the warlords of the States.
3. He states his uttered hatred toward Europe, yet he's using an ancient European's name.
4. Probably the remnants of Sioux, Navajos and all other Indian tribes would offer their tribute to your America.
5. American culture is a medley of European culture and the those ones which were influenced by us. All in all, it doesn't exist.
6. Have you seen any American movie, in which a Jew girl is married to a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist man?
7. If I support Palestinian' right for freedom and independence from Israel, am I an Anti-Semitic? After all, Palestinians and Arabs are semitic people too. Can't you see, dear my Marcus how the Israeli did deprive other nations (their brothers!) with their expressions?
Please, Marcus, read about the European history. We did fight each others, and it is not excluded that we'll fight each others again, but we share a continent, with such a cultural richness, America just can dream of. Your globalization is not as strong as our heritage. We don't need your Halloweens (good Christian country, indeed) nor your baseball (just to say, that there is an ancient Hungarian game called 'méta' which has been transformed into the America's very own sport.), nor the American football=rugby. We can stand on our own.
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#438 Nik
Most was understandable until the last sentence.
´a US plot too for having a grip ´
I honestly can´t follow, would you explain ?
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Re440: Quietoaktree you are right, I do throw in lines not everyone understands. Your question is interesting.
As you know there are several ways to hold your grip over a smaller country and one of them is to threaten it constantly from outside or the inside. Till the 90s the good old method was the right-wing, left-wing division - something that was used by both US and Russia.
In Greece, up to the 1990s one of the countries with extreme social homogeneity, i.e. 98% of citizens Greeks, Greek speaking, christians the main way to divide was done by the usual left-wing righ-ting wing divide as memories of the civil war were still recent and the generations that fought it were just enterring in retirement. It goes withoutsaying that back in the 1940s it had been unsurprisingly the British that funded both right wing as well as communists for the obvious reasons.
Now, since the late 80s this was clear that would be not possible anymore thus a new division line had to be found as well as a new reason of existence of the left wing. For this and for many other reasons, US pressured the then ND party government, and forced the then minister of external affairs Antonis Samaras (who funnily is the leader of ND party in opposition since after the elections of Oct2009) to accept loosening the borders with Albania and letting in 100,000s of illegal immigrants, Albanians started enterring on foot, literally. This was taken by the following PASOK government throughout the 1990s and hence from less than 80,000 non-tourist foreigners (i.e. the 0,8% of the population), Greece reached having officially 1,2 million immigrants the vast majority illegal, but unofficially certainly more than that, thus we talk about more than the 15% of the population. 85% of them are muslims and 95% of the muslims are Souni. Quite a chance there eh? The 1/3 of them are Albanians (who are at a 80% majority muslims). Out of the non-muslims almost all are simply the non-muslims Albanians.
And here is the tragic crossroad of Greece: saying that Greece simply finds itself in the crossroads of international immigration is a lie. First of all, there was not more poverty in the world in the 1990s than in the 1980s and the same amount of war was going on in the middle East. Kurds were hit in Iraq and Turkey with Napalm and chemicals alike. You had the Palestinian intifada. You had the huge Iran-Iraq war. You had the Afganistan war. You had huge wars in Africa too. Yet absolutely no immigration ever reached Greece and you had the Andreas Papandreou (father) giving refuge to a number of displaced Palestinians since he was a personal friend with Arafat who were one of the few non-tourist foreigners that you could find in Greece. Suddenly in early 90s "something happened" and the doors opened to a huge wave. This was simply a bit prior to the treat of Maastricht and the phenomenon was not independent of it. Now Greece was never a colonial country to have any links with anyone to invite people. You could say that illegal immigrants choose Greece for finding a way to enter the EU. But Greece was already more than 15 years in the EU. So even that argument is not valid. Other idiots say that Greece wanted the immigrants to work on their projects - an absolute lie: Greece throughout the 1980s was totally desindustrialied and real jobs were being replaced with Macjobs. The last thing that Greece wanted was a flux of unskilled untrained and often completely illiterate people. Yet this was wanted by a small group of construction companies that simply placed aside all Greek workers forbiding young ones enterring the profession since they lowered the wages so much to inhuman levels, paying lower than the basic salary and of course without any insurance, forcing workers to work in inhuman conditions with an absolute lack of security.
It goes without saying that the influx of illegal immigrants had catastrophic results for the already collapsing (since ages...) Greek economy as the bulk of these people contributed only as cheap labout to a small number of private construction companies and rich landowners while contributing nothing to social security but then they received a basic health cover and many find ways to get more than that (i.e. working mostly illegally then maintaining a part time legal job to get the necessary months to receive the unemployment benfits then continue to work in the black market etc.). Moreover Albanians have their country right next door, not in any other continent, thus the majority of their money has been invested in their country to construct houses there etc - for the past years the Albanian economy was dependent at times for more than 80% on people working in Greece and Italy.
Of course none can blame these people seeking their better future - anyone did so, Greeks included. There is a huge difference though. For Greece, the financial problems that illegal immigrants cause are minimum. The high criminality levels that illegal immigrants cause are also not as much important than what follows next... note that criminality rates increased more than 10 times (10 times!!!!!) with 60% of the overloaded Greek prisons coming from the 15% of the population, i.e. immigrants and note that Greece does not imprison illegal immigants for being illegal (they are kept in accomodations to pretend there is some control until unleashed in the wild inside the country...) but only those that do illegal activities - note that the notion of police targeting them is a joke in Greece, in fact policemen avoid immigrants for not falling in PC traps and losing promotions and such, let alone endanger their own lifes as an amazingly high number of immigrants - mainly the Albanians - are carrying heavy arms like kalasnikofs and such thus you never know where you fall...
So if the situation in terms of economy and social conditions and order and security is less than bleak... what is do important that shadows all that?
Well it is the national security:
Albanians have been traditionally a nation that opposed Greeks being the main soldiers of the Ottomans. A combination of old hatreds and modern social jealousy against Greeks leads Albanians not only hating Greeks but also based on their recent success in Kosovo, to demand downright lands on Greece, Albanians when themselves already possess North Epirus out of a historic mistake (North Epirus was never part of any Albania but was an addition by Italy and Britain to avoid giving Greece the other end of Otranto narrows - these thins are well recorded in history anyway). Albanians, just like neighbouring FYROMians, think they have become the main US arm in the region and they are onto a full-throttle propaganda against the Greeks with direct territorial claims. A part of the Kosovo Liberation Army has formed a new group which aims at occupying territories inside Greece and is armed and already sending messages on the internet just like KLA was sending messages in tv channels back in the early 90s. The Albanian entry to the EU has pretty much nothing to do with all that, you have to subscribe it in the same context with Turkey occupying half Cyprus (by now, an EU member!!!) and threatening with war Greece, then being a candidate country to enter the EU. Schizophrenia at its maximum.
Next to the Albanians - who are in majority muslims at least nominally, you have the massive influx of other muslims who are surprisingly most Souni muslims ... so as to do the right match the muslims in Turkey, the majority of them Souni. These groups are not necessarily pro-Turkish on their arrival as they are Kurds, Syrians, Iraqis, Afganis and Pakistanis (Pakistanis & Afganis though are already quite pro-Turkish) but living in a non-muslim country quickly shows them the path.
Now if you think the rise of the pro-muslims and Erdogan in Turkey is all independent to all that you are really mistaken. It is more or less more than 10 years that the pro-muslims had gotten to power and they do seem to be there to stay even if momentarily they might lose the first position - even in that case, a less pro-muslim governement will never be able to revert the current cos the situation in Turkey is simply demographical. Pro-kemalists did less children than the pro-muslims.
And we come back to what had been said back in the late 1980s in a tri-lateral meeting of Greeks, Turks and Americans (imagine...) talking on the Aegean where the then Turkish leader Turgut Ozal had just backed from yet again another invasion of a Turkish ship on Greek sea-space and he said that "at the end of the day, we do not need to act militarily against Greeks, all we need to do is to throw on them all the muslims of Asia and in 20 years, the country will be ours".
One should be more than naif to think that what Turkey has nothing to do with all those millions of people crossing its borders, travelling 1000s of kilometers inside Turkey, a country that no matter its financial condition is always under development with large projects and plenty of opportunities and a huge industrial and construction sector... all that to leave this fellow Souni muslim country and land where? In Greece? A non industrialised country with no industry and absolutely no need of them, on the top of that non-muslim and in really strained relationship with the neighbouring muslim country, Turkey they just left.
Forget about PCs. People are good ok we said it... Now start thinking. That is the plan. If in France, Britain and elsewhere immigration was used only for threatening citizens and for achieving better social control, in Greece it is used for one more reason - i.e. total geopolitical manipulation. French are risking merely a bit more crime, nothing much. Greeks are risking seeing becoming the next Kosovo with muderdered (even a genocide) of Greeks and total ethnic cleansing. History - even the most recent (north Cyprus) says that if Greece fails to protect the borderline, then genocide and total ethnic cleansing follows.
Now quietoaktree... I will have to send you back to the 12-miles issue in the Aegean (I have repeatedly talked about it) and that is one of the basic issues in the Greek-Turkish borders - in a few words, Turkey wants to aggressively take Greek (EU) land just like that and reset the borders in the Aegean and US is fully backing them not just at the moment but throughout all these decades, since the replacement of Britain by US in the region as a controller - thus there is nothing on the horizon that could say this basic US geopolitical plan could change. The illegal immigration thus becomes the perfect "intelligent arm" in the hands of US.
Remember this message. Copy it somewhere and consult it each time you hear of "racist troubles in greece". Here above we talked about Hungarians and gipsies - that is a joke in comparison to what may follow for Greece. You will see more of "bombs in mosques" and "racist attacks against """innocent""" muslims in the very near future) - you understand by the "" "" "" that ALL of them will be not conducted by any Greek anyway... you know how it works....: For a simple reminder, read what was the "cause" of the pongroms of Konstantinople of 1955 that saw the violent death of 1000s of Greeks in just one afternoon which ended in ethnically cleaning Konstantinople of all of the 250,000 Greeks (achieved in combination with total consfiscation of properties down to their houses). The only difference of the "cause" of the near future troubles will be that Greeks will be chased & killed inside their own country.
If you think this is all about fear or "most negative scenario" you better start googling about Albanians, Epirus, Liberation army and such. These are real things, not any farce. And US is openly behind (if you search more you will see the links...). Why wouldn't it be? If Greece goes on, say to drill the oil in Aegean let foreign guerillas invade the country, killing Greeks, let Albanians (and/or other muslims) take it to the streets and start looting let Greeks reply to this violence with violece then let EU freeze or even kick out Greece for a combination of reasons (financial, social instability and such) and let a NATO force come there as-if to aid the situation and calm down things inside a NATO ally, as-if in the anti-terrorist effort but then as we know it will be just Greece with less territorial control.
More or less that is the idea behind:
To have this "weapon" there as a threat.
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WA;
"Absolutely. Only has no relation to Belorussia and Ukraine. Because since 800 ad it's not exactly "one generation" :o))))))))))))))"
1200 days or 1200 years, a mere trifling detail. If there was any justice the Brits would give their land back to the Druids or Celts or whomever they stole it from and go back to Saxony or Norway or wherever they came from. Clearly there are double standards.
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many thaks for nothin';
You think Greek democracy is so great? Thousands of years and what has become of it, what does Greece have to show for it? Corrupt, bankrupt, thoroughly messed up. It took American democracy barely two hundred years to achieve the same end :-) BTW, without those weaopns Greece would be a slave state in the Soviet orbit to this very day. Now I know there are some in Greece and around Europe who will never forgive America for making that impossible but there you are, you'll have to create your very own Communist slave megastate. And I must say you are doing one hell of a job of it with the EUSSR.
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Oh dear. Here I go again. I am going to make yet another dint in that great Greek victimisation myth. The discussion has now degenerated into another one of those "we was robbed" southern Balkans self-pitying fests. I am sorry but I am going to have to intervene. And in doing so, I am going to bring the discussion back to Hungary.
During the First World War, the Allies, planned to filled the Ottoman empire and essentially divide it up between the victors and those who had collaborated with the victors, namely Armenia and Greece. Greece and Armenia were to gain huge parts of Asia Minor, creating a border between the two countries and leaving no state to speak of for the people who actually lived there, the Turks. Both the Armenians and the Greeks went along with that plan, but they had not reckoned with the Turks. What followed was the Turkish War of Independence, which left the Turks and Kemal Ataturk victorious and the Greeks, Armenians, British, Italians and French defeated. In short, Armenia and Greece had tried to expand their territory at the expense of another nation. They had gambled and they had lost. Greece reverted back to its 1821 borders and Armenia went back to its Caucasian homeland. Note that this is not an endorsement of how Armenians were treated in the Ottoman Empire. Genocide should be condemned whereever it occurs. But as far as the Turkish War of Independence is concerned, one should not forget our cause and effect here.
My favourite analogy in this is the Danzig and Sudetenland Germans, as well as Hungarians living in Slovakia. In the inter-war period, they were often harrassed and discriminated against by local Poles, Czechs and Slovaks before and after Hitler came to power in Germany and Hungary collaborated with Germany. In an effort to put a stop to the discrimination and harrassment, many of the people living there welcomed Hitler and collaborated with him. Of course, this meant the de facto destruction of Poland and Czechoslovakia. Again, everybody knows how World War 2 ended. The Germans and the Hungarians had not reckoned with the Poles and the Czechoslovakians. Between 1945 and 1949, the aforementioned German areas were purged of all Germans, most of who migrated to Western Germany. Something very similar happened in Hungary. Again - ethnic cleansing should be condemned whereever it occurs. But here, I would put it to my German and Hungarian friends that we should not forget our cause and effect here.
Before the Turkish War of Independence, Greece and Armenia tried to gain territory at the expense of another nation, Turkey. They lost and had to suffer the consequences. In the case of Armenia, those consequences were surely excessive and cruel, something that Turkish intellectuals have recently started addressing. What is truly insufferable is this neverending litany of Greek victimhood. What, they tried to steal territory from another country 90 years ago, lost the war that ensued, therefore they now have the right to discriminate against immigrants? How ridiculous is that?
But what is more important is that this is bringing us back round to the topic of Hungary. The parallels are striking: it collaborated with an aggressive regime. As a result of that, it lost territory. What followed is a national identity whose main topic is victimhood. There is a national psychosis of "having been wronged" and an intense hatred of minorities in the country.
The question should not be, "are those countries entitled to consider themselves victims?" The answer to that is obviously a resounding "no". The question should be, "what are the most effective ways of combatting racism in those countries?"
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Mistake in my previous post: Greece did not revert to the 1821 borders after the Turkish War of Independence, but ended up with territory that reached all the way to western Thrace.
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Chris... brief comments:
1) The beginning of the genocide of Greeks & Armenians predated WWI. 200,000 Armenians were already slaughtered pre-emptively till the end of the 19th century following the last 19th's century Russo-Ottoman war. Genocide of Greeks in Minor Asia officially started in 1912 and the slaughter of the city of Phocea when out of the blue Turkish looters appeared and slaughtered the whole town with survivors numbering less than 100 people (most of them saved by the French archaiological team present there who told the story...). However, Turks had already commited slaughter against Greeks in Macedonia following the pseudo-rebelion of Iliden organised by the Bulgarians to drag the Greeks inside and despite Bulgarian commitates coming from the north being the organisers of the event, the Ottoman army just fell on the local Greeks (because it just did not matter, mostly Greeks were there to loot, not Bulgarians).
2) The Turkish war of independence is a joke. Bad Britain that wanted to divide Ottoman Empire and give it to Greece and Armenia and France and Italy falling to take their parts and bad Greeks and Armenians falling on Turks... and superhero Kemal saving Turks who went on to beat everybody .... what a fantastic story line! Chris, this is for village fairs. Too bad Britain had achieved every single goal so this "as-if" failure comes out of nowhere. And too strange that Ottoman army that had lost almost every single war against all these countries including Kemal who had lost in Caucasus and lost in Middle East achieving to win an as-if war against British, French, Italians, Greeks and Armenians. Don't you get the absurdity.
The case simply was that Britain, France and Italy wanted 1 thing: Greeks and Armenians to get out of Minor Asia and that is what they orchestrated. They went in, caused the chaos, brought in the Greek army which was driven by the British under unbelievable terms and conditions to go inside Minor Asia and thus lose when the supply lines were cut, so that later Turks would had a justification to continue the genocide against Greeks they had already started in 1912 (and they had already genocided 500,000 Greeks some 1,000,000 followed till 1922). All that while France was openly pro Turkish, Italy was giving to Turkey for free (without the slightest exchange!!!!), its newly gotten land in Attaleia from where it supplied the Turkish army and Britain not only tolerating Turks getting supplies from the... Soviets but also threatening Greece with total war if it dared liberate Konstantinople, a land that even after 1922 was easy for Greeks to have given the absence of any proper Turkish navy.
I am not going to discuss it more, because I know that on suhc issues you close your ears and keep to the turkish state "turkishness" state propaganda. But the above are fact for everyone to check if he wishes. And that is the difference between us. I talk facts you talk whatever Chris. What can I do about it?
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Re443: If US and her mother Britain were not there there would be no communism in Russia Marcus for a start, so why would be Europe threatened? Russia would be Europe's main supplier and the most powerful state in the world. Communism placed it in the 2nd position and cut Russia's commercial ties with Europe. They would not need to conquer Europe Marcus, for the simple reason the supplier does not conquer the client but rather the client tries to conquer the supplier. That is a fact of history.
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Nik, I think you have your hysterical facts wrong. The US didn't enter WWI until 1917, I think after Russia had already left. The US was not the reason Russia had a revolution and became a communist country. Now if you'd said had the US not entered WWI there might not have been a WWII I'd agree with you. In fact had the US not entered WWI it might still be going on to this very day... if there was anyone around left alive to fight it.
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Ladies and gentlemen, what you have just been reading is just another one of those tangled-up conspiracy theories. The British "forced" the Greeks to attack Turkey in order for them to lose against Turkey to give Turkey a justification to commit a "genocide" against Greeks - the southern Balkans is just full of these kinds of myths - from the Serb myth that the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia was all Germany's fault to the Greek victimisation myth, the region traditionally bases national identities on folklore, rather than hard facts.
For the enlightened (i.e. Roman alphabet using) world, the hard facts are what really matters. Some of them can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_war_of_independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_%C4%B0zmir#The_Treatment_of_Turks_during_the_occupation
These are simply facts. No conspiracy theory should be tolerated as a serious challenge to hard facts.
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#441 Nik
I thank you for your explanation.
My knowledge of the ´local ´ politics is skant (Albania,Macedonia), however I have been following the Cyprus problem for around 50 years and the relationships between Greece, Turkey and North and South Cyprus
( I have visited all of them often).
My first Greek visit was at the time of the military dictatorship. The cold war was in full swing and when landing at Athens Airport 100´s ? of USA transport planes were parked. The Greeks themselves appeared to be split on the dictatorship and the role of the USA supporting it. The civil war was not mentioned but still obviously was on everybody´s mind.
I was staying for a couple of weeks in Monemvassia in a one room hotel above a Taverna. After a few liters of Retsina downstairs one of my friends joyously broke a plate and the group went silent as one of the secret police put his head around the corner. After the owner closed the Taverna he would listen to Deutsche Welle every night, the radio on low volume. There was fear in the air.
I could never understand ( politically ) why the Greek military could do such a stupid action on Cyprus with such a large American presence in Greece ? Another CIA plot would really have to be well explained, just as them hoping to get 100% of the Greeks to support the dictatorship.
Enossis was no longer a viable option as Makarios was in charge with a treaty signed by Greece, Britain,and Turkey.
Ecevit pleaded With Greece and Britain to get those idiots out of Cyprus, Makarios was in hiding and the kiling of Turkish Cypriots was in full swing. The Turkish ultimatum was ignored WHY ?.
The general mobilization was called in Greece but was disbanded quickly after it was discovered the arsenals had been sold.
Anyone could see the Greek military was finished and instead of the Greeks being thankful to the Turks, I was forced to order a Greek coffee on my next visit to Greece.
I do not wish to be too hard on Greece but I feel the continuation of the same family names in its politics is one of the reasons for the mess Greece can never appear to escape. The EU membership does not seem to have helped.
Perhaps, as with Spain the civil war is too fresh ?
Please comment.
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Re449: Marcus,it is funny you use the word hysterical. Yes you are right about 1917 and war and such... but for once forget about your little country and stick to the basic notion of geopolitics that it is not just all about countries shaping their own future but about power-circles that are pretty much internationalised and which treat little countries like the US like their own little feud. And that holds true since the middle ages. I am sure you ignore basic historic facts, well accept as it is. There is no single war since the American and French revolutions that was not controlled by that small circle of Britishogermanofrancoswissoamerican bankoinvestors.
Perhaps it is my mistake to refer to Britain and US directly. People of US and Britain had anything else that really any relation to that. I should rather say "circles within Britain and US funded the USSR". These circles were mainly British but already heavily investing in America since late 19th century. They used not only Britain and US but also Germany and France and Swiss and were long infiltrating Russia. They pretty much play all the sides putting money everywhere and winning from everywhere no matter who wins and who loses.
You realise that the american connection in the bolshevik revolution is not noted by me but even American writers of the times as well modern ones admit it.. including random industrialists like Henry Ford who admitted "indirectly" all that americanobolshevikism mentioning in one of his arguably yellow leaflets that he had seen Leo Trotsky in the company of New York bankers and for him communists were just a bunch of marionnetes played by international bankers. The fact that USSR revolution was funded from outside Russia is undeniable, well the candidate countries are Germany and Britain+US there is no other. Oh yes, Switzerland too but you know how it goes there. Well the truth is that Swiss put the banks to launder the money (it is Switzerland that Lenin and Trotsky were visiting too often for 2 men that almost never had any real profession and real revenue in their lifes when even mid-class Russians could not afford such frequent trips there)... and Germans put the night train that took the """russian"""" bolshevik revolionaires into Russia. Nice.
Communism Marcus is a pure capitalist developent afterall only capitalists could had come up with such a notion that as-if fights-off communism but actually accelerates its international spreading if anything on a fear/threat basis. Anyway, what do I say here? Haha, talking to a wall? Can you forget what you cling to? I do not see you capable of doing so.
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With every country and people writing their own history and victimhood of the past few hundred years the one thing missing is the stories passed on by grand-parents or great-grand-parents.
The official histories are mostly lies written by the victors for the benefit of their flag waving citizens who wish to either Rule the Waves or Rule the World or both.
As far as anti-semitism goes, the role of Turkey in giving many Jews refuge during WW11, along with the many North-African Arabs who were actively helping Jews hide during the Nazi roundups for transportation to North-African concentration camps never appear in the daily re-writes of history.
Moslems helping Jews is just bad news ?
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Re450: Chris do not spend your saliva trying to talk about conspiracies... mate, wake up: what you call conspiracy is the only way politics move even on a lower scale, guess how much on a larger geopolitical scale. On a gepolitical scale, an ally or an enemy are blurred notions, biggest example Britain and Russia that were found repeatedly allied more times than really at direct war with each other, yet these two were in fact the hugest enemies (and still are) in the global scene.
Simply said, the creation of the Greek state in 1830 was not really wanted by any European back in 1820s apart a few romantics and of course Russians who had other plans for the region. But Europeans had no choice either since losing more time would finally mean game over for the British in the region. European countries like Britain, France and Germany viewed in Ottoman Empire a nice helping arm against Russia as well as the only means to maintain a sustainable commerce circumnavigating Africa. As soon as the Suez was finally built, the Ottoman Empire's usefullness as a stopping wall of east-west commerce had to get a whole new meaning. The last thing Europeans wanted is the total collapse of Ottomans and the retaking of the region by the ancient christian nations, namely Greeks in the west and Armenians in the east, something that could have enormous repercussions to European, especially British plans in the Middle East. Anyway, what do I tell you? As if you ever understood anything about geopolitics.
But lets move on to your .... wiki-points... Let alone half of these wikis... being written by turks, and turks' ability to write history is simply an endless description of how brave and good soldiers are Turks (which is laughable of course...)... I will do indeed commend on selective points (and in reality there are tons of points to make on the links you have given that I could commend for days and you would not know where to hide dear Chris):
1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
So this is the partitioning of the Empire? Are you sure Europeans had decided to partition it? Cos they did more treaties in 3 years than what they did in the rest of the 20th century, finally deciding to leave it to the Turks just like that with no war, no battle - on the opposite funding and arming the Turks (mainly Italians & Bolsheviks but also secretly French while British helped in any other ""indirect"" way including threatening Greeks with total war if they decided to act otherwise in Eastern Thrace).
What is interesting to state is that on 1912, Minor Asia had 17 million souls out of which christians were 7 million - and that does not include Eastern Thrace where christians (mostly Greeks and a few Bulgarians) anyway were in majority. It was 100% natural, moral and a historic obligation for the surviving christians to seek independence from a barbaric Ottoman regime that only in the 1912-1919 period had murdered 1,5 million Armenians (the complete genocide), 1 million Assyrians (the complete genocide) and about 500,000 Greeks (the 1/3rd of the genocide, the latter was completed by late 1922).
2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_war_of_independence
What is really funny from point 1 to point 2 is that "somehow" Turks refer to partitioning of their Empire refering only to western Minor Asia and they keep forgetting all the huge, immense, grandiose partitioning of the whole middle east where Turks lost one of the most rich and geostrategic regions on the planet...regions habitated by fellow muslims. Quite too much convenient for British and French isn't it?
It is weird that this infamous War of As-if Independence (from whom?) did not include the slightest effort by Turks to recover at least one Mosul, 1 Damaskus... nothing... nada... seems agricultural fields around Smyrna were more important for them, who wanted oil and those muslims, better leave it to the British to handle... eh? Chris, I will wait for you to show to me 1 battle showing a genuine effort of Kemal's army to do something about the Middle East in this war of as-if independence.
First one has to explain... what is war of independence? Who had enslaved Turks? Answer? Pretty much nobody. There was simply a bunch of British, French and Italian armies that enterred to control the region (from fear of what really?) following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. British soon called in the Greeks and French armed the remaining Armenians of south Turkey.
Now of all these forces whom did Turks fight? Did they fight the British? Not, not a single battle. Did they fight the French? No not at all. In fact French while helping Armenians against Turks, they resented Greeks in the west. Did Turks fight Italians? That is a joke, Italians had been a major ally of Turks in everything but the name being the major supplier of the Turkish army followed by the newly established Soviets for which Britain had nothing to say.
So whom did Turks fight in their war of independence? Greeks and Armenians. How convenient eh?
It goes withoutsaying that British calling in the Greeks and pushing them inside Minor Asia was exactly the same as French arming the remaining Armenians to continue the fight: i.e. the last part of the drama of the genocide of the Minor Asian christians as that was the plan. Once that was finished, every single European army left Turkey - why did they do so? Why? What did they have to fear there? Turks? But Turks could not even beat the Greeks alone and need the British to threaten them with war so as Greeks do not send their navy in the channels. Really, how come Turks got Konstantinople? On what navy? Why didn't the Greek navy enter? Why the 40,000 retreating troops of Plastiras (which Turks simply failed to touch despite the collapse of the Greek front due to lack of supply lines sitting 1 year outside Anchara doing nothing - another huge question there...) and the 120,000 troops of Pagkalos and the 100s of Greek ships didn't they try to enter Konstantinople? How come the horse and foot soldiers of Kemal were more able to cross the channel and get there? Chris... Cccccccchrrrrrrriiiis. Try answer that with points please or leave it to me: Britain had threatened Greece with total war if it tried to remain in Eastern Thrace keeping Turks to Asia. The idea was to forbid a naval nation like Greeks gain control the channel - it is pure logic a 5 years old can understand.
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Quietoaktree... you are misinformed. There is the myth of turkish tolerance towards jewish but in reality turkish atitudes towards them were strictly opportunistic, with jewish being hit more than 1 during the as-if tolerant times of Ottoman Empire. Jewish finding refuge in Turkey in WWII were not many and were a random event that Turks just randomly tolerated. In fact, in the 1930s following the obliterration of the christian populations in Minor Asia there started the attack against the remaining christians of Konstantinople (about 250,000 souls) first by means of 60-70% annual taxation on all earnings and property which equals to total confiscation, then followed by direct violence. The racist laws took together the Jewish and many Jewish were hunted for their properties and driven out of the country.
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To finish my answer to Chris (it gets interesting...)....:
Let us go to this wiki link Chris gave:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_%
Now here it gets funny:
1)It says:
""Following the Ottoman Empire's defeat in World War I, the victorious allies had gathered in Paris Peace Conference, 1919 to decide on the partition of the remaining territories of the Empire. Before the opening of the Conference, the British had already occupied Istanbul (Constantinople), the French had marched into Cilicia, and the Italians landed in Antalya on the southern coast as well as being promised parts on the western coasts including İzmir.""
- So that was the occupation forces? So how come the famous Turkish war of Independence managed to fight against NONE of these "occupation" forces? What else can I say? How much more can I bend human logic?
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2) It says:
"The Italians were unaware that Britain promised Greece large tracts of Asia Minor for its support during the war. The Italian delegation to the Paris Peace Conference, 1919, angry about the possibility of a Greek occupation of Western Anatolia, left the conference and did not return to Paris until 5 May. The absence of the Italian delegation from the Conference ended up facilitating Lloyd George's efforts to persuade France and the United States to favor Greece in order to prevent Italian operations in Western Anatolia."
- Sound funny isn't it? Occupation forces and the """partition""" and the rest. N'importe quoi. Seemingly, Italians were more interested in not seeing the Greeks there rather than working for themselves to maintain their own presence there.
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3) It says:
"The Armistice of Moudros in the article 7 stated that the Allies "to occupy any strategic points in the event of any situation arising which threatens the security of Allies."[3]"
So where does greece fits in there? (see 4)
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4) It says:
"The chief proponent of the Greek occupation on the side of allies was the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, despite strong opposition from his own foreign office. British foreign office argued Greece had already proved incapable of keeping order in Salonika, and could not be trusted to administer large tracts of Asia Minor.[4] Lloyd George had thus concocted a report according to which Turkish guerrillas had threatened the Greek minorities in İzmir[5]. This report gained the sympathy of President Woodrow Wilson, whilst Georges Clemenceau approved the landing with the hope of limiting further Italian gains.[5] The same report was used as a pretext for a Greek incursion into Asia Minor, beyond the province of Izmir."
- So that is where Greece fitted. Boy George wanted Greeks in "as-if" to protect the Greek populations of Ionia. And the same justification was used by the British agent-politician Venizelos to arrange so that the Greek army landed there.
... only that the Greek army came there not independently but as part of the British forces and under overall British general command!!! It went only where British told them to go and could not step in not even at a cm, where British had forbidden them - i.e. obviously the channel. What about that?
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5) It says:
"On May 15, 1919, twenty thousand[7] Greek soldiers landed in İzmir and took control of the city and its surroundings under cover of the Greek, French, and British navies. Greeks of İzmir and other Christians, who formed the minority according to Ottoman sources and a majority according to Greek sources[8], greeted the Greek troops as liberators. According some other sources, Christian population was "perhaps a bare majority, more likely a large minority in the Smyrna Vilayet, which lay in an overwhelmingly Turkish Anatolia."[9] It has been recorded, before WWI, that the Greeks alone numbered 130,000 out of a total population of 250,000, while the Ottoman ruling class referred to the city as Infidel Smyrna (Gavur Izmir) due to its strong Greek presence.[10][11]"
- Gavur Izmir, turkish ruling class... very turkish city indeed. How can Greeks alone be 130,000 people and the total population be 250,000 people and Greeks and... christians be a minority? As far as I know there were more than 30,00 Armenians too, let alone the catholic Franko-levantines.
What is more absurd is that these numbers refer to the time of the Greek army's arrival in the city. However, in 1915 Ottomans (in fact the young-turks) had conscripted in the Ottoman army more than 120,000 Greek young men who were sent directly to concentration camps (first of the kind in the 20th century!), where they were exterminated in a matter of 8 months with German officials noting that they were impressed of the effectiveness of these death camps to exterminate an unwanted population. Therefore the 130,000 Greeks had a notable majority of female population as a large percentage of the youngmen were murdered - it was these horrible slaughter and what lied next to it that caused all the motiviation for Greeks to be there to protect fellow Greeks.
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Now let us see what bad things did Greeks in Minor Asia to deserve total extermination: note that these follow the extermination of 500,000 Greeks in 1912-1919!!!!
6)
"The landings proved to be chaotic and one of the examples of atrocities, which would continue during the rest of the conflict, occurred in that very day. Von Mikusch notes: “The Christian crowd rages and yells… Many fall under the bayonet thrusts. The men are forced to tear the fezes from their heads and trample them underfoot – the worst outrage for a Mohammedan – all who refuse are cut down with the sword. The veils are torn from the women's faces. The mob begins to plunder the house of the Mohammedan”[12]."
Many? How many? 1 million? 10 million? Did they murder the 100% of the muslim population? The 30%? The 20%. The answer you will find it below in further point
Now one can imagine by the use of word "yell" the affectations of the writer... so what was the terrible things Greeks did to Turks?
"it says, they made the Turks put on the floor their hats and step on them and they tore the veils of women... " Oooohhh mon dieux! Quel horreur! Ohhh the humanity!!!!!!
And you accuse now islamists for murdering people for books and comics? Here Turks had to be angry for their hats!
Now notice in the photo of the troops enterring that a lot among the public were Turks. They obviously felt very threatened to be there in the march next to the soldiers... very smart!!! That is how much they felt threatened.
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Now how many of them were they really killed?
7)
"Old men, unarmed, and other unoffending civilian Turks were knocked down by the Greeks, killed by stabbing with knives or bayonets, and then afterwards, having their valuables and clothes stripped off their bodies, were thrown into the sea...Specific instances are cited by these same eyewitnesses where Turkish soldiers and officers were bayoneted from behind by their Greek guards, while the rabble rifled their pockets and then threw their bodies into the sea. Many of the worst instances of inhuman treatment of the Turks were while they were under arrest and on open sea front at noonday.[13]"
The "unoffending" is relative. Local Greeks knew very well who was who and who was offending and who was unoffending among the "turkish ruling class". If killings were wanton by the Greek army that should include a huge percentage of the muslim population of the city. So the question is how many. Was it the 100%, the 70% the 20%, the 10% of the population? How many?
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8) the answe comes from :
"Donald Whitall, British resident of İzmir stated that:
From the custom-house up to the Kramer Palace Hotel I was the unwilling witness of the massacre of some thirty unarmed men, who were being marched with hands up. This butchery was committed by Greek soldiers entirely...Close to the landing place of the Cordelio boats I saw a lot more shot down.[14]"
Some.. thirty... i.e. not even thirty. There had to be 10s of 1000s of people in the streets to see the Greeks coming, Greeks, Armenians but also 1000s of muslims as photos show, who felt it really secure to come out. And references of trouble mention what? Killings of 25-30 people there, 5-6 people there...
Given the history between Turks and Greeks and especially what Turks had commited in the 1912-1919 period to Greeks in Minor Asia, Thrace and Macedonia and Crete (ooooohhhh you miss reeeeeeeeallly a lot of info there!), this landing had proved absolutely civilised.
NOW go to
http://www.pahh.com/horton/
It is the American consul at Smyrna speaking...:
Go, chapter 10.
""I returned to Smyrna in 1919, shortly after the Greek army had landed in the city. As the Turkish plan of extermination was well under way before the arrival of the Greek troops, the Christian peasants had been driven out of the entire region with the exception of the city itself, and many had perished, their farms and villages being destroyed. They had scattered over the Greek islands and the continent, and at Saloniki, where the Greek government had constructed barracks to house them, there was a considerable settlement of them.""
.... eh? do you take notes Chris?
"... Much has been said of atrocities and massacres committed by the Greek troops at the time of their landing at Smyrna on May 15, 1919. In fact, the events that occurred on that and the few succeeding days have been magnified until they have taken on larger proportions in the public mind than the deliberate extermination of whole nations by the Turks, and no consideration seems to have been given to the prompt suppression of the disorders by the Greek authorities and the summary punishment of the principal offenders, several of them by death."""
Aha!
"...The whole responsibility was therefore thrown upon the Greeks, who landed among a population, so far as the Turks were concerned, more insulted by their advent...........To the Turk, the Hellene is not only a "dog of an unbeliever," but he is a former slave....""
(continue reading about the idiotic turkish snipping inside the city...)
"... There was no massacre, in the sense of a general killing of prisoners, but some few they did thus kill; this act appears murderous, contemptible and idiotic, and the Greeks may be left to explain it as best they may....Various estimates have been given by Americans who were present as to the number killed, ranging from fifty to three hundred. The latter is a high estimate. There was also considerable looting, both in Smyrna and the outlying regions.
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See what I mean Chris?
Now go to point 10:
10)... So after having fought the famous war of independence against Greeks and Armenians and no other Italian, French or British armyn Turks enter Smyrna.
In your own turkish-written link, Chris it mentions that the christians set up fire in their own city... perhaps should we add that christians themselves had also killed the 100,000s of christians killed in gavur-Izmir? Are we kidding?
And the biggest question:
After nearly 2 years of Greek occupation where on earth did the local Turks come out from if they were so much slaughtered by the Greeks?
It is in your own link Chris read it:
""Large scale disorder followed, with the Christian population suffering under attacks from soldiers and Turkish inhabitants. The Greek archbishop Chrysostomos had been lynched by a mob which included Turkish soldiers, and on September 13, a fire from the Armenian quarter of the city had engulfed the Christian waterfront of the city, leaving the city devastated""
See what I mean?
Next time Chris please do read better the sources you bring to defend your points:
Now go to:
http://www.pahh.com/horton/
And learn it by heart before returning to post again on such issues please. It is a matter of humanity. There is no similar event as to the 3 genocides of Minor Asia. [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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#455
If I am correct, transportation of Jews to German Concentration Camps occurred from Greece, but not from Turkey ?
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... too many issues quietoaktree...!
For the Greek genocide in Minor Asia read Horton:
http://www.pahh.com/horton/
He might have been very sympathetic to Greeks since himself he saw with his own eyes the horrors but he was also a US official and thus had also the possibility to see things strictly neutral. His sayings are not based on thin air and are verified easily by all accounts and even the pathetic efforts of justifying the turks' crimes which fall in horrible contradictions as I easily showed above:
Let alone Cyrpus now.. : just take these comments out of discussion....:
The issue was never between Greeks and Turks but Greeks and British. Greeks in Cyprus fought a weird city-war against the British. The British played the good-old rivalries of muslims against christians as a safe card for continuing to justify their presence there.
1) Makarios was a British agent (see also who funded his education...)
2) Samson was a Britihs agent (see how many times he was arrested and left free when Euagoras Palikaridis a 17 years old was hanged for being found with an empty unused weapon...).
3) EOKA B were all a British-made organisation (it did not fight the British, it concentrated fighting the muslim militia (armed by British too).. for obvious reasons.
4) Cypriot communists were organised and paid by the British to fight off ideologically the real EOKAs.
5) Situation is so dirty that there are even suspicions on Grivas himself leader of the real EOKA, though I do not have any elements as indeed Grivas correctly distanced himself from Makarios and Samson knowing they were agents. You never know though... Grivas was too an SAS and collaborated briefly with British back in Greece.
6) There were other 2 attempts from the Turks to invade in 1964 and 1966 but they could not do it lacking the basics. None discuss on these, and the 95% of Greeks today ignore them cos they are not taught at school on them or not refered in the media (Greeks are heavily propagandised by the state on such issues as to hide the role of British and refer merely in a vague manner to Americans and dictatorship...).
7) Following the failed attempt in 1966, in early 1967 a US-backed dictatorship happens in Greece for which actually US president Bill Clinton has apologised. Dictator Papadopoulos finally refused to follow all British demands (demanded via US) and in 1973 in parallel with the war in Middle East (everything is connected), the Americans pushed the leftish in Greece to revolt and give the chance to anothe dictator, Ioannidis who was the perfect US puppet. When Ioannidis took over, the leftish magivally disappeared despite him imposing a worse regime against citizens, then he disarmed the Greek army in Cyprus but left 2-3 tanks to pretend making an as-if junta inviting guess whom? Samson (now go to point 2 above). Turks indeed have an ultimatum which Ioannidis ignored while it was himself that had disarmed the island months ago!!!*
8) At the end of the day, Turks are not the real organisers of the crime in Cyprus. They are mainly responsible for the attrocities commited, for the cold blooded murder of more than 2000 POWs and for occupying the region permanently having ethnically cleansed at 100% and inviting emmigrants to eternalise their presence there, thus with no hope of finding any easy solution today. But really it is not them. It is British and Americans who jumped in quite late as a helping hand to British to tell the truth and who are wrongly accused as the main instigators....
* things are even more tragic as treason is not just from Ioannidis. In fact a number of higher military officials were told to sabotage the remaining Greek forces so as to minimise the fighting in the island and these officers were in talks with politicians like Karamanlis and Papandreou (do the names tell you anything?), who had already agreed with Americans to sell half Cyprus and return back to get on power from the dictator Ioannidis.
** Ioannidis was the dictator who got most of the allowances outside prison - in fact people are not really aware how many days he spent in prison out of his "life-imprisonment"...
*** The Greek colonel serving in Cyprus (i.e. the one who had even rifle-armories locked during the invasion letting the anyway few remaining Greek soldiers holding bayonettes (you think I am doing black humour there?) finally took a promotion up to the rank of general during the PASOK socialist years of the 1980s....
... please... let us go back to dear Hungary and the original issue... better...
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#458
Thank you again for your explanations -you must be exhausted.
I do disagree with a few points, as I tried to use my visits to the region as educational.
You deserve a strong Ouzo or Raki ?
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Since I see that Kemal Pasha has created modern Turkish Republik WITH UK and US's help, and that ENOSIS and a slaughter of Turks in Cyprus has never happened I'm going have some Greek coffee (as long as somebody explains to me what it is) and get a break.
Until I hear that Greece has become solvent.
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@ Nik, aside from the fact that it is very evident that you do not have anything to say about the issue at hand (Hungary), an issue which I have repeatedly tried to bring the discussion back to - your method of "debating" goes as follows:
a.) any given evidence that disputes your knotty conspiracy theories is "written by Turks". You seem to think that this baseless allegation renders my evidence wrong. How so? Things written by Turks are wrong by default? Moreover and as usual, you completely fail to back up any of the things you are saying. You fail to back up your supposition that the wikipedia entries are "written by Turks" (as if that had anything to say in the first place) and you resort to conjecture and negationism in reply to any evidence given.
b.) Anything that is plainly not in accordance with your romantic idea of the heroic yet victimised Greek nation is just a great convoluted consipracy to harm the Greeks even more.
I am going to cast a few spotlights on your "arguments" to point out the fallacy of your current debating style.
1.) "So that was the occupation forces? So how come the famous Turkish war of Independence managed to fight against NONE of these "occupation" forces?"
Your statement lacks truth, therefore it lacks force. For instance, Ataturk gave the French a real run for their money:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Turkish_War
2.) "Sound funny isn't it?"
It doesn't. But more importantly, it's neither here nor there. The Greek efforts to implement the proto-fascistic Megali Idea were an aggression against the Turkish nations in its own right. It does not matter whether the Greeks had allies in that war. If anything, anyone it hurts the Greek cause because the fascists who tried to implement the idea do not only stand accused of irredentism but also of flat-out stupidity. Who lunges head-long into an armed conflict if they are not 100 percent certain whether or not the prospective allies can be trusted?
3.) "So where does greece fits in there?"
Simple - in their efforts to implement the Megali Idea.
4.) "So that is where Greece fitted."
I do not understand how that contradicts any of the things I said. I would refer you to my second point. The question is not "did the British take part in the anti-Turkish campaign, as promised to the Greek aggressors?" The question should be "was Greek within its rights to attack the Turkish people and did it act wisely?"
5.) Your twisting of the fact with regards to the Greek theft of Izmir is an example of how you simply pepper discussions with figments of your own imagination when the facts are very clear. Even if your concoction had even so much as a kernel of truth in them, you cannot argue with the bottom line: Izmir was and is not part of Greece. Greek soldiers had no business being there.
6.) "it says, they made the Turks put on the floor their hats and step on them and they tore the veils of women... " Oooohhh mon dieux! Quel horreur! Ohhh the humanity!!!!!!"
I have seen you display this kind of hatred before when you belittled the Polish people who were mass-murdered by Russians and the 150+ journalists assassinated by the KGB goons since 1989. The Turkish women who refused to take off what was after all a part of their clothes in front of the Greek mob, they were simply murdered. You seem to find it appropriate to make light of that. I find it nauseating. And once again it informs my future judgement of any of your articles in which you feign outrage at Greeks who had to suffer "genocide" in your opinion. Some people, it seems, are less equal than other people in your opinion. That seems to be the nature of nationalists who have the unbelievable arrogance to call people in other civilsations "uncivilised". It gave the Greeks in Izmir a pretext for the massacre.
6.) "The "unoffending" is relative. Local Greeks knew very well who was who and who was offending and who was unoffending among the "turkish ruling class"."
Indeed "unoffending" is a very relative word. To the Greek mob in Izmir, hell-bent on killing as many Turkish people as possible, any Turkish life is offensive. The Hutu were local people in Rwanda and new exactly how to tell the "offending" Tutsi from the noin-offending ones.
7.) As to the numbers, even the most conservative estinmates by far outnumer the "mere" 30 that you speak of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menemen_massacre
If that was me, a Turkish person living in Izmir at the moment and I had witnessed parts or all of the massacre, then I would have been very much against becoming a citizen of Greece.
8.) "See what I mean?"
Yes I do see what you mean. And it is not surprising. Cruel? Yes. Surprising? No. Just look at what happened to Prussian and Sudeten Germans after WW2.
9.) Your entire fallacy consists of not wanting to know certain things. You say the allies did not fight the Turks. Wrong: see above. You say that there were no Greek crimes against Turks - wrong: see above. You say the Greeks were fooled by the British - irrelevant: see above, questionable: see above. You completely fail to take issue with the most important question - how did Greek troops end up in Turkish territory and what did they want there?
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Chris:
a) Turkish storyline not only refuses that any genocide ever occured in Asia Minor but proclaims fantastically on the side that "what happened was the christians' fault" - i.e. there was a genocide or not finally? The fact that the Turkish state imprisons with minimum 5 years prison (the famous article on insulting "turkishness") and even murders directly journalists, writers, historians and simple people trying to investigate these issues is anything but supporting your theories.
b) You say I say that anything that is plainly not in accordance with your romantic idea of the heroic yet victimised Greek nation is just a great convoluted consipracy to harm the Greeks even more...
Whatever... where did you see the romance Chris? The conspiracy you refer is simply the will of the British & French not having Greeks, a maritime nation, gaining any control of the channel while Italians practically resentented even the slightest move of Greece anywhere on their own lands since Italians were on a full and aggressive expansion in the Mediterranean (and went in war against Greece in 1923).
What is exactly what you do not understand Chris and you need further explanation?
2) Not only did I NOT found any major conflict between Kemal forces and French apart the French-trained Armenian forces of Armenian survivors in south Turkey in the link you provide but I even see this:
"""France held better relations with the Turkish nationals during the Turkish War of Independence, chiefly for breaking Triple Entente solidarity and signing a separate agreement with the Turkish revolutionaries."""
The French were signing agreements with Kemal in 1921, i.e. 1 year before Kemal attacked Greeks. So? So we come exactly yo what I say Chris. Thanks for verifying me once again with your own sayings and links!
2) The "megali idea" is not even a term invented by any Greek but by the British to belittle the effort of Greeks to liberate all Greek lands. Back in early 19th century cities like Smyrna and the surrounding region with a Greek majority had no reason to be in any Turkish state after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
You are being funny when you accuse Greeks of being fascist and not your fellow Turks of being the same for wanting this city Turkish and cleared.
Go again and read the points:
The genocide of Greeks had already started in 1912 (let alone previous massacres). By 1919 there were about 500,000 Greeks known to had been massacred by young turks.
Nice Chris, now go say that too to Jewish, tell they should stop complaining about WWII Now, Nazis and such. Tell to gipsies too they were foolish and deserved their slaughter too. Perhaps indeed it was very "fascist" of the side of Greeks to have a will to defend themselves against all that nazi youngturkish violence.
4) The Greek army was sent there against the general will of the Greek citizens and even a large number of military people (even Venizelist in there) by Venizelos who represented the will of British and modern historians call him nowadays openly a British agent. It was him that sent the army - to be placed under the overall command of the British - and it was him that organised the general plan to go deeper, then as the army was already engaged in fighting with Turkish militia in an endless futile struggle (as Turks hit and run deeper in the continent) Venizelos quit. The new party on power won the elections from obscurity for having promised to get the army back. Instead it was forced by the (British/German) royal family to step on and move on deeper. Then when it reached outside Anchara and despite still having the force to take the city (not that it would win Greeks anything, since they were not there to stay), they stayed some 100km outside waiting for about 1 year while British cut off all supply lines and not letting the Greek navy pass the Dardanelles...
Any logical person can understand the above. At least I force you to accept that there was absolutely no will of any Greek people including the majority of leadership figures to step on that campaign in deep Minor Asia. The two main instigators were Venizelos who had been a British agent (and of partial Greek ancestry to put it in details...) and the royal family where British-Germans. Gounaris was just an opinionless puppet who went on to end the campaign and next day for obscure reasons continued it in the worst manner. By mid-1921 the majority of mid-range and top-range officers serving there had quit smelling the trap.
5) Chris, forget about your sad propaganda. We are in 1919 not in 2010. With 60% of the population and more than 70% in the countrheyside, Greeks of Ionia, the had not only the moral right but also the obligation after the genocide commited by the Turks to demand their freedom. The Greek army had a moral obligation to be there. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire there was no reason for Smyrna to be part of any turkish state. As simple as that and I do not care if the turk inside you cannot digest this reality. Gavur Izmir Chris, Gavur Izmir was called by the "fidel" Turks. End of story.
6) Turks between 1912 and 1919 had genocided 500,000 Greeks. Tell me Chris, right after these horrific event, when Greeks land in Smyrna in 1919, how many Turks did they kill? Give me numbers, right here right now Chris. I have already answered this Chris above but you try to avoid the point.
7) Chris I am talking about a genocide that was already on against all "infidels" of Minor Asia that had already killed at a rate of millions. You talk about what? 100 random murders, most of them local vendettas? Are you incapable of putting things in the right scale or something? I am shocked.
8) Only that this was the final act Chris. more than 500,000 Greeks (350,000 Pontians, 120,000 Ionian men and rest from various rural region ths) were already genocided prior to any Greek involvement in Minor Asia. Put your storyline in order Chris.
9) Again your gebbelist way. In 1919 there was nothing like "turkish territory". Turkish territory was Bosnia and Iraq too if you want. The only thing that there was a falling Ottoman Empire and a Greek city of Smyrna in the Greek region of Ionia. Nothing short of that. There was absolutely no reason for Smyrna to enter any Turkish state with arguably a 1/3 muslim population and especially after the genocides of 1912-1919.
I do repeat until you put it good to your head: in 1910 there were 10 million muslims and 7 million christians in Minor Asia. Almost 50-50%. The only places muslims had a clear numerical superiority were in the inner lands. Whole regions in Ionia, Pontos had a Greek majority. Same for Armenian regions. Turks there were the "ruling class", nothing more than that and no different to what had been the case in European side. Even before the genocides of 1912-1919, there was no reason for these regions to join any turkish construction,guess how much after the genocide of more than 2 million people....
Chris. Direct question: are you a genocide denier or something? Cos everything you say points at that direction.
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Chris and Nik
It does not appear that either of you have visited Greece, Turkey and North and South Cyprus. Please take my word for it that all of them are ´ mentally unstable ´ You both have given enough reasons why this is understandable. There are many other societies in similar or in worse psychological health.
I was in Istanbul on the evening in 1977(?) where the massacre near the Galatasary (?) bridge took place. The night before some young communists kindly gave me one of the posters they were sticking on walls. It was very clear a portion of the Turks were in revolt. Those who could get out were already working in Germany.
Then came their Civil War and the poor and downtrodden lost the battle.
Within a few years they had regrouped, not under a communist ideology -- But under Islam.
The Social Democrats were unable to break the power of the ruling elite and the Military.
There are many similarities between modern Greece and Turkey which neither of you are prepared to accept.
Turkey has presently chosen the Islamic direction, Greece (when the riots are finished) had better not choose the
´usual culprit ´ politicians if it wants out of its downward spiral.
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Re457: Powermeerkat on an effort to lighten up?
Well... contrary to all these stupid talks you refer, you should know that Greeks consider food as something to eat and thank God, not anything to put a label for propaganda, something which comes in contrast with "others".
One of our favourite dishes is beans (there is a special recipe that makes this humble dish excellent), our favourite vegetable is tomato and it suits perfectly feta cheese, our favourite fruit is water melon. Too bad beans and tomato come from South America, and water melon from Africa.
What you heard as "Greek coffee" is what you know as "Turkish coffee" which is actually the "Arabic coffee" that Syrians traded up to Eastern Minor Asia before the rise of the Ottomans and it is the same coffee that Janissary soldiers left outside Vienna after leaving the siege, however Austrians did not know the use and thought it was animal food and the drink was popularised actually by the first coffee house in Vienna (and I think in western Europe) actually opened by an Armenian. Greeks since being in contact with Arabs certainly had known coffee long before but the drink at medieval times was a thing mostly of Arabs since most quantities were consumed locally mostly close to the production sites just like khat, i.e. mainly in the lower Middle East. In later times increased production and better transportation meant prices fell and the drink was popularised throughout the Eastern Mediterranean. I have not any problem calling it "turkish coffee" and neither do Greeks who call it "turkish coffee" interchangeably too, the "Greek" is used mostly among Greeks themselves to denominate the exact method of preparing it (there are tiny differences according to different tastes you see...) and usually in contrast to other types of coffee.
The real "Greek coffee" is the "Frappé", the cold coffee based on instant-coffee which is actually a recent advent of the late 50s made out accidentally by a Nestle exhibition salesman who either is still alive or might have died recently. In the Thessaloniki commercial exhibition he had been working long hours so needed some coffee and his machine was off, so he took a baby-bottle (Nestle!), and put some coffee and a bit of sugar in it with a bit of cold water, shaked it, destorying his shirt, then added more cold water and drunk it just like that. He actually liked the cold coffee taste so next time he addedd ice-cubes too. People saw him and asked him what it was and tried it too and it spread slowly for the next 10 years until Nestle realised this man had created a new coffee market there suitable also for the summer as indeed coffee sales in summer were traditionally a bit down. Thus they changed the Nestle instant coffee taste to suit the cold coffee style (you may get the greek Nestle coffee and the French of British equivalent, they have a slighlty different taste) and braded it mainly as a cold-coffee called i think by them as "frappé", rather than hot since the early 70s.
Still... coffee is an African drink popularised by Arabs.
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Nik,
Please don´t confuse Powermeerkat.
Greek coffee got its name after the Cyprus debacle--similar to American (French) fries.
Instead of Greek and Turkish food, Ottoman food would be more accurate. Presently I find Bulgarian Feta the best.
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To return to topic, it will not be clear until after the run-off stage of the election on Sunday to what extent the 17% support for Jobbik will translate into parliamentary seats. Until then, speculation is premature. It is also not right to characterize corruption as the preserve of the outgoing government. Anyone with memories of the previous Fidesz administration will vouchsafe to that.
There is, however, real concern within the expat community here about the evident lurch towards the politics of the extreme right. Leaving aside for a moment the distaste for the politics of scapegoating, racism and nationalism, there is also concern about domestic stability, the knock on effect on relations with the wider world and the sincerity of the commitment to the democratic process. There are foreign investors here, some with substantial commitments who, while not withdrawing, are taking a wait-and see attitude and looking elsewhere for possible alternatives. Those who believe that by supporting the ultra-nationalists, they are voting for increased investment and falling unemployment could be in for a very nasty surprise.
Let us hope that the next round will produce a government which can operate without Jobbik. That, for now, is the best we can hope for.
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oj. threnodio. I'm very glad.
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#464 - Nik
Well argued except for one small detail - the tomato is a fruit, not a vegetable.
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quietoaktree, I am Greek, Greek citizen, living still partially there despite by professional life which is on the move years now, I have been to Turkey too multiple times (profession too), Konstantinople (Istanbul), Prousa (Bursa), Smyrna (Izmir) and Attaleia (Antalya) and of course the island of Cyprus but not the northern part, thanks I avoid rogue states and afterall I value my life you know... If you are British or American you can freely go there and buy property stolen by Greeks in 1974 at extremely cheap rates just if you do so, do not inform anyone if you find bones in your yard, break them and throw them in the garbage as they usually do there...
Chris has some Turkish ancestry too but he claims to be citizen of the world so he should know better.
The similarities between Greece and Turkey are commencing and finishing in the kitchen (though Turks are on the saucy-side, Greeks are more simplistic which is more my style but I do also like the Turkish-style too) and partially in parts of their music (as Greeks drew influence from Phrygians and Lydians since archaic times while Turks made the link between Byzantine and Arab music - a link that anyway pre-existed prior to their entry in Minor Asia).
But these similarities are quite superficial. The two cultures have deep differences and it is not only about their difficult history. None in Greece will kill you if you suggest that Greeks did this or that bad thing. In Turkey you literally risk yourlife as anything you say is taken literally as a physical attack against them. Paranoia runs so high that themselves Turks are calling themselves Mongols, then when Greeks are calling them Mongols they get furious just like they got furious (and often killed people on spot) when they were called Turks in the 19th century.
I am sorry but it is down to that. Cultural differences are huge and are of the order of civilisational differences. I suggest you should rather ask Emmanuel Todd to explain that to you better in his own specialist terms as I am no good in words.
Yes both societies are similarly macho and patriarchal but there are is a huge difference in that: The Turkish macho is the "the rule of the mob controlled by an absolute leader" while the Greek macho is "the rule of the mob controlled by each person within the mob". Turks are incredibly disciplined and their whole cosmotheorisis is to obey or make others obey. Greeks are incredibly undisciplined and their whole cosmotheorisis is not to obey anyone, not to force anyone obey. A Greek will respect you only if you treat him and yourself as equals. A Turk will respect you only if you treat yourself as superior to him, if not he will treat you as inferior, as Turks cannot understand the notion of equality. A Turk will be incredibly proud of say a battle were 300,000 Turkish soldiers will attack a city defended by 8,000 Byzantine soldiers (siege of Konstantinople) while a Greek would try to hide this event out of total shame. Indeed, Turks have never fought a single battle against Greeks having an equal army to Greeks - when they go on war they make sure they are at least 3 to 4 times more otherwise they avoid getting into trouble at all, this is not to say anything on them, just to show the way they think and function.
... the above are said half-jokingly but 100% seriously by one of the most well known "Tourkologists" known today, Mr. Sarris, a highly respectable researcher of Turkish history ancient and modern.
I suggest you a single visit in youtube where young Turks and Greeks are fighting verbally. If you have any psychology knowledge and you can get results out of such an experiment, you will understand a lot as in relation to what I say above.
If you think that I am joking above, I am not. You tube is a good measure for psychological profiling and the differences are enormous. One has yet to find a substantial number of Greeks saying "we are ten times more than you, we will eat you alive". Of course Greeks cannot say it anywa as they are fewer than Turks. But any police around Europe has yet to state one incident where 10 Greeks gathered to beat to hospital or to death 1 defenseless person, yet for Turks you can write books as to their habbit in gathering in sizeable packs to attack lonely targets. This is something Turks consider manly but this is somehing that Greeks consider the exact opposite of manly. Turkish macho consider rape manly and something to brag about, Greek macho as a total failure of manliness and could beat you blue on the spot if you claimed to have done it. I can go on for long with these stereotypes and I have not even started with the women where differences are equally enormous.*
Try and play those similarities again and I'ill come back with mory funny stuff.
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Re468 ... and fig is actually a flower, not a fruit... heheheh Threnodio you are 100%, I know. I just use the term mostly in terms of the tomato's place in our diet.
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#469 Nik.
I was close to Amnesty Int. during the military dictatorship, many Greeks were tortured.
When I went to North Cyprus I requested that they do not stamp my passport, they did not.
I could not visit Armenia as the Embassy refused a similar request, unfortunately.
After the ancient Brits bought Malta, then headed for North Cyprus as you have said. The Greek Cypriot houses they occupy are only ´on loan ´ until a solution is found.
There has always been a good black market between the North and South (peace is bad for business).
the Kyrenia (Girne) harbour is still beautiful and the original Mafia have passed the trade to the next generation (as in the South).
The restuarant quality has seriously degenerated as the many casinos offer free food and transport to their big Turkish spenders.
I am not at all happy at the meal ´degeneration´ in all 4 areas.
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quietoaktree Cyprus question is so complex and so simple together that it is ridiculous.
You mention about hotels and casinos in north cyprus. Who would want to go there for holidays? It is a disgrace. Are these hotels the ones taken from the Greeks? Or did they build new ones? Total disgrace. How these people can live there when possessing houses of Greeks. Did they take their dishes too? The linen? Did they give their children the toys of Greek children?
Total disgrace. Anyone who goes there for holidays should be ashamed of himself and that includes first of all those Greek Cypriots that move inside to see their houses but manage to spend money there supporting the thiefs of their own lands and houses, among them some of the killers of their own people. Total disgrace.
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Anyway, as you see the situation is that there will be no solution apart a future war. Anyone can see that it is designed. Turkish cypriots are locked in a situation where they have mainly contact and survive thanks to Turkey, they cannot survive by themselves. They want to "unite" with the south but in such a way that is nothing like a union but more like Greeks signing te division of the island, the acceptation of the crimes and the recognition of an all but in the name independent north.
The famous Cofi Anan plan some years back had designed a loose confederation i.e. the recognition of an almost independent northern state which however would have an increased (in relation to its 35% on the island's population) presence in the federal parliament...i.e. not only Cypriots would have to accept and recognise the northern state but it would yield an increased authority over them!!!
However the most fantastic was that no Greek would take any house back, they would have to sign that they would accept the situation as it is, and that all colonists who took Greek houses would remain on the island (which is something that even Turkish Cypriots highly resent) and that the Federal state would have to recompensate those that lost their houses!!! I.e. Greeks not only would have to compensate the few Turkish Cypriots who lived in a few poor villages in the South and who voluntarily left (none had attacked them in 1973 and none forced them, they just followed orders from above...), but they would have to compensate for all these 100,000S of Cypriots who lost their property... i.e. Turks went in took the land and Cypriot government would pay themselves for it!!!!...
No wonder Cypriots rejected it at a formidable %. But there were a lot of traitors. The usual Cypriot Britis agents. The communists. And the socialists in Greece like Papandreou (we said it, he is not even Greek anyway...) plus some right-wing traitors like Mitsotakis (and his daughter) etc. Which is a total disgrace. Thankfully there were people like Tasos Papadopoulos. A true patriot, a true hero. They could not do anything while he was alive, so he died, and they attacked his grave and stole his bones....
... incredible.
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Re471: ... just for the note of it. Many Greeks had been tortured by dictatorship bullies in the presence of CIA agents. Bill Clinton has officially apologised for the US implicaiton in the Greek junta.
Note that Americans were involved 2ice as it was not 1 dictatorship but 2. In 1973, they used the leftish to create trouble and give the chance to Ioannidis to arrest Georgios Papadopoulos and take over power (then of course the leftish and the popular unrest vanished "mysteriously" as if democracy had returned) and it is Ioannidis who organised everything for the events in Cyprus on behalf of Americans.
Anyway... long stories... it is more pleasant to talk on coffee, tomatos and figs...
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Re465: Back to the coffee! Hmm... Greeks continued to call it "turkish coffee" all the way (note however that Greeks and Turks have a slightly different taste on coffee, Greeks tend to make it less sweet and more thick, then it is down to personal taste). The term "Greek coffee" appeared priot to Cyprus events in 1974 in cafés in Greek cities for the simple reason that writing "turkish" next to their coffee gave the unconscious impression that the coffee itself was from Turkey too and as all things from Turkey were perceived of bad quality they changed it and put it simply as coffee - but then there was the "French coffee" which is actually the "Italian coffee" (same story) so they had to put something, they put "Greek coffee" to make the distinction. It was purely a marketing term and it was for the internal market and not that much related to the Greek-Turkish difficult issues. Later in the 1970s, in touristic places they started translating it to "Greek coffee" which was extremely funny for western tourists visiting the two countries seeing branding the same coffee as greek and turkish. In the mean while, orally Greeks continued to call it interchangeably as "Turkish coffee" without any negative connotation (i.e. do not imagine that only left-wing and anarchists called it "turkish coffee", right wing and extra right wing people called it too as such).
I already underlined that Greeks are not that touchy about their food. They are touchy about their history and culture but food for them is to eat it. While food is always part of any culture, Greeks usually had much more important things to discuss than exchanging recipes something seen as a matter for grandmothers and daughers or mother-in-laws and brides... hehe...
To put it simply, Greek cuisine is simplistic. Turkish cuisine is much more rich and and it is not just me that says so but most Greeks. Greeks love Turkish cuisine but poor Turks happy that Greeks love Turkish cuisine think they found something Greeks love in Turkish culture forgetting that Greeks do not consider food as any main part of culture then they actually love Turkish cuisine long before Turks arrived in eastern Minor Asia for the simple reason that it is the Minor Asian cuisine (same with music), thus you have the usual stupid fights over who made what, ehehe! However one has to give Turks some credit, they really had a developed taste and they did a lot of their own original stuff which they took not from Greeks, Arabs or Persians, especially the sugar-based sweets like sutsuk lukum (ask WA, she knows!). Any Greek tourist in Turkey passes necessarily from their restaurants, a good turkish restaurant is really a meal to reckon.
However, Greeks having a more simplistic approach tend to prefer the Turkish recipes the Greek way, i.e. not too spiced, not too complicated, just as Minor Asian Greeks brought them to Greece. They have a thing for cheese/vegetable pies (best thing ever) which Turks seem to have a bit less.
Bulgarians on the other hand are a real mystery. My grandmother comes from cental Eastern Thrace thus they were not too far from the Bulgarian line - indeed I remember calling us "miskinka" (which I guess its a bulgarian word) when we did something bad, thus there has to be some link in the cuisine. However despite my frequent visits to Bulgaria I was young at the time and on the go so I never managed to eat in a proper traditional Bulgarian restaurant to identify the local recipes, I do have an idea though and I really like it (especially when there is extensive use of sweet peppers). Indeed Bulgarians make feta and indeed it is very good quality and it is much more close to the tastes of western & central Europeans who like their cheese more sweet and less salty especially if it is soft white cheese. However, Greeks, a maritime people, who like things mostly salty, do not find the less salty feta nice so if Generalissimo hears Greeks saying "aaaa... Bulgarian feta is no feta" it obviously refers to that. Hence there was an effort by local producers to keep the name "feta" for the Greek production and use the neutral name white cheese or else for all the rest. But that was a matter of producers only. Actually "feta" means simply slice and it is the southern Greeks (Peloponesians, Stereoelladites etc.) that call it like that, us northern Greeks (Macedonians, Thraecians etc.) simply call it "cheese" cos it is the only cheese that matters and the one we eat mostly even in pasta (southerns have "myzithra", something close to italian hard cheeses for pasta and they are always amazed we use the softer feta there). For other types of cheese we call it "caseri" which sounds very close to jewish "kosher", most probably a loan word that ended up being used that way.
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"caseri" is it all types of cheese? I'd think first thing of a "kozij syr" - goat's (milk) cheese, borrowed from your Bulgarian neighbours, as a word. Don't know.
Nick you should one of these days post a recepie of something Greek to cook like a salad or whatever, with recommendations and all, many here will be interested in something practical and simple and eatable.
I agree my overall feeling is you use things as they are, without much marinading them or ? - anything spoiling the original taste!
Persians yeah, famous for sweets, Eastern eh? lounge? relaxation? idea, something melting on the tongue sweet and slow.
Besides I would think nothing else but sweets keeps in their climes :o)
And turks always on the go :o), easy to carry with, some energisers :o)))Kind of Snickers approach :o)))), quick energy boost.
We've got a whole "Eastern Sweets" old store since times immemorial on Nevsky prospekt in St. Petersburg. The whole house one nougat in all varieties, death to the teeth :o)))))
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There are 2 good old stores; Death to Husbands :o))) and Death to Teeth :o))) (both nick-names)
"to husbands" - surely jewellry.
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To MarcusAureliusII,
I don't know what part of America you live in, but I'm fairly certain it's not an America that Native Americans and non-caucasian US Citizens would recognise. You talk about ethnic hatred in Europe, when you've recently had THAT debate on Healthcare? You say there will never be a Martin Luther King or Barack Obama in Europe, I agree but not because our cultures won't allow it, but because we've never had that level of institutionalised racism to begin with. BTW. Most of "American" culture is European. I don't see much trace of Native American (North or South)culture in the US. You have a "Bill of Rights" and unfetterred Corporate freedom (most of whom are now multi-nationally stamping their vision of the future upon the rest of the world). You talk about a "shared" history when America rewrites history daily (& why let facts get in the way of a good story?)and stamped its world view upon Native Americans. You talk about shared values, yet the only values Americans seem to share is a love of money and the strength of the dollar. I wonder how "included" the people of New Orleans felt 1 year after the hurricane, or the ones who (until recently)couldn't afford health insurance (no ethnic or cultural divides there?). I think most of the Republican party would totally disagree with your "caucasian minority" statement.
The bridges and roads built from EU money are all TOLL roads, they'll get their money back (and more). Hungarian social & economic structure was ripped apart by corporations for 9years before finally being "allowed" into the EU. Hungarian wages and Western European prices do not a cohesive society make.
I don't recall USA helping anyone behind the "Iron Curtain" rebuild after WW2, and you certainly didn't protect Hungary from invasion by the USSR. In fact Patton wanted to liberate Hungary and was ordered to turn for Berlin when he was 15km from the Hungarian border. (The russians were already in Berlin at that time). Hungarian crown jewels languished in America for decades, denied by successive Govts. until Jimmy Carter handed them back.
Radio Free Europe and US/UN promises of intervention failed to materialise in 1956 (distracted by Suez, perhaps?). As for Western Europe, help rebuilding certainly didn't extend to your allies, and coincidentally, Hitler would never have got to power without the backing of "international financiers" and being supplied by US weapons manufacturers, more intent on getting rid of Communism (the real reason why WW1 ended)than any worries about world peace. It was unfortunate that allies of the Nazis bombed Pearl Harbour, otherwise the US would have gladly continued to supply both sides until Europe was bankrupt. European unity is predicated on the fact that individual european countries cannot stand alone against global corporate interests.
Perhaps before passing comments on a Europe you left 40 yrs ago (which hasn't changed one iota in your view), you should remove the scales from your own eyes and look at the damage to the whole world that the US is mainly responsible for since WW2.
BTW. for someone who wants to let Europe sink in its own mire, you sure do seem to post a lot on "european" websites. Whatsamatter, smug self-satisfaction no fun with no one to gloat at? Or perhaps you don't get "News" in monocultural heaven?
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As to the racist slander that all Turkish Cypriots are "illegal settlers" who have no business being there, I would refer readers to yet another eye-opening wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Cypriots
Once again, this bigotted slandering of an entire population is nothing more than the preparation of a pretext for future genocidees against "undesirables" on the island of Cyprus. It runs along the lines of the revanchist claim that "Turkey is an artificial entity". The Turks have wone their war of independence. They ended the occupation of their lands. And they have driven the foreign aggressors out. They deserve their own country.
That, along with the idiotic claim that "Greeks are brave because unlike the Turks they would never gang up against a lesser number of people" makes me want to spend a nice, long holiday in northern Cyprus, where I am going to spend as much money as possible.
I am cannot leave this without putting in the bin at least the trashiest of all the baseless allegations that can be seen above.
The French-Armenian forces were under the auspices of the French government. Essentially, "French-Armenian" was a name much more than anything else. Of course the Turks one against the French.
The mendacious statement that "there was no such thing as Turkish territory". I guess Russian and German aggressors against Poland thought along these lines ("there is no such thing as a Polish state"). Well it seems that there was indeed a lot of Turkish territory, because where else would Ataturk have found enough support and manpower to beat back the supporters of the Megali Idea? No matter what sado-masochistic fantasies of "genocides committed against Greeks" are put out here, under international law, the Greek army had no business invading Ottoman/Turkish territory, even and especially at a time during which Turkey was undergoing a transformation from the outdated Ottoman republic to Turkish republic. The Greek army saw it fit to take advantage of what they saw as a weakness (there was a revolution going on in Turkey, plus it was occupied) and they launched their shameful attack. Izmir was just one hideous example of many. But it turned out that the Greeks had grossly underestimated their adversary and they paid a very high price for it.
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Re "Janissary soldiers left outside Vienna after leaving the siege, however Austrians did not know the use and thought it was animal food and the drink was popularised actually by the first coffee house in Vienna (and I think in western Europe) actually opened by an Armenian."
A correction: Janissaries and other Ottoman crack troops under commmand of Kara Mustafa have not 'left' Vienna: they were defeated soundly in the famous Vienna Battle by the Polish Army (mostly heavy cavalry) under the command of king John the III Sobieski.
The first coffee shop in Vienna was opened by one of his former officers, who, having previously been an emissary to Great Porta, knew what coffee was and appreciated it.
BTW. To celebrate the victory Viennese bakers baked pastry in a a shape of a crescent.
Thus originating coffee&croissant tradition some of us enjoy till this very day for our early small breakfast.
That is before we have our 12 oz. T-bone steaks with sunny-side up eggs, hash, baked patatoes and refried beans.
Washed down with No7.
[Nope, not exactly Mediterranean, but sure as hell mighty tasty.:)]
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Re #478 "I don't recall USA helping anyone behind the "Iron Curtain" rebuild after WW2"
Correct, and for a very good reason. Communist Russia prohibited countries its Red Army 'liberated' from accepting Marshall Plan aid, which they were more than willing to take.
Although it WAS offered by Washington. Unconditionally.
Names of two such countries which readily come to mind were Czechoslovakia and Poland.
Only now returning slowly to their pre-WWII standard of living.
Despite spending almost half-a-century in the Soviet Workers Paradise.
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and definitely Russians don't go for hols to the wrong side of Cyprus never did in the past 20 yrs since sea bathing and sun abroad became possible.
I didn't even know the Northern part of Cyprus exists :o)))), until I got to normal Cyprus and they told me there, that there is a wrong side of the Moon as well. For Russian travel agencies there has always been only one Cyprus.
Well, I guess, some may be ? explorers? in explorer moods? got there from Russia as well. But then I think with that kind of visa stamp you won't be ever able to go to the normal Cyprus.
And it is Smirna in Russians of course.
Konstantinopol, though, :o)))) is Tsarjegrad - city of tsars. Simple and elegant name since ad 900 something.
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I've been in Pafos Paphos three times, got addicted :o))) There is one good Afrodita bay where she stepped ashore, more or less :o)))), fitting my bathing requirements (small bay small pebbles big rocks deep at once).
We had to find a home away from home for summer bathing, after Ukraine marched away off with our Crimea, and, how to say, in common opinion it was found we shouldn't grace Ukr. health resorts anymore with our royal Russian presence :o)))) Tourusts made a U-turn, someone found Cyprus, the rest is history :o))))
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Re479: Chris, you are indeed an incresible genocide denier and in your racist slander you cannot hide this anymore - you more or less claim the usual utterly racist "the fools, they deserved it anyway" ignoring the 1912-1919 dates. You brought absolutely no poin, sending blindly links which each of them prove you wrong but you are so fanatiscised that you cannot stand critiscism and you keep on your own little monologue there.
Show me 1 point where I did say that ALL Turkish Cypriots were settlers - on the opposite, I did do clearly the distinction. And that is a hugely known fact that if a solution today cannot come it is thanks to more than 70% of modern """turk cypriots""" being not Cypriots but poor Turks from Anatolia given free houses from violently expulsed (often by murder in their own houses) Greeks who would enter and occupy the houses and sometimes even dig and bury the human remains in neighbouring fields.
That is the reality and everyone knows it. Ask a real Turkish Cypriot and listen to what he will tell you - they are fed up being ruled by colonists (the majority of turkish cypriots now want colonists back and to call in greeks back... for your info... But... they can't have their saying, anyway they are the minority up there in the north).
As for the genocides in Minor Asia, you deny them. It is more than 3 million people Chris, 3 million people assasinated, slaughtered, burned and killed under the worst imaginable conditions. Not just Greeks. But Greeks And Armenians And Assyrochaldeans. From 1912 continuously till 1922 while Armenians had already suffered 200,000 slaughtered in late 19th century. Calling these different people all liars when their stories are identical and are well monitored by archives is extremely racist. Go tell the Smurna Turks who celebrate the genocide in Smyrna with "greek dolls" strangled, fired and thrown in the sea to celebrate the event of the slaughter that they did not do this to Havur Izmir.
You should be ashamed Chris. Calling you a racist and a fanatic serves no purpose. Nothing else to say. A bit of shame would do good but it seem the turk inside you finds more important to hide the "tarnished" image rather than admit the reality. Shame.
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WA? Why Russians should not grace Crimea with their presence? Was it the will of Russians themselves or that of Ukrainians? Crimeans are mostly Russians aren't they?
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#472 Nik
What is this nonsense ?
1. The same was said about me when I visited Greece under the Dictatorship.
2. New hotels and Casinos have been built.
3. Greeks and Greek Cypriots are wholly responsible for this mess -- and only them.
4. When will Greeks and Greek Cypriots stop blaming others for their Childishness ?
The Nazi Germans for their financial mess.
Turkey, who pleaded for the return of Makarios.
The years of support of the National heroes Grivas and thugs who are honored by street names on Cyprus.
5. I also met a Greek who was born in Poland, His father was expelled as a Communist and was forbidden to return.
6. The British troops did not escort Turkish Cypriots to prevent the from committing suicide, but being murdered by Greek heroes.
7. The name Macedonia etc. etc.
The childishness is exemplified each year at the stupid Eurovision Song Contest.
Greece 10 points and then Cyprus 10 points.
Apart from being the cry-baby of Europe and throwing spanners into every thing Europe tries on its Southern flank unless its tantrums are accepted, I fail to see any use for Greece or Cyprus in the EU.
Sorry.
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"The Turk in me"? Why is it always those kinds of people who of all of humanity have the nerve to call other people racist.
1.) None of my links have proven me wrong. The fantastic claims of "genocide" against Greeks at the hands of Turkish people just won't fly at this point. You seem to think that tossing great numbers with many zeros around will impress people. 300,000 here, 800,000 there. Look, I can do it too! I've got a zero on my keyboard too. What you fail to do is prove any of the things that you claim. Note that I did not deny that there was violence. But the cycle of violence started 100 years before the alleged "genocide" against Greek people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_during_the_Greek_Revolution
And they were clearly not instigated by Turkish people, as during that time, Turkish was still not a clear concept of nationhood.
About Cyprus - the Turkish state intervened AFTER the Cypriot government was illegally overthrown by people who were trying to merge Cyprus into the Greek state - which is something that both Greeks and Turkish people on the island had agreed not to do. In return, the Turks promised not to make any moves towards the partition idea, which would have given one part of the island to the Turks and one part to the Greeks. The junta was the side that broke the agreement. The Turkish state merely reacted. It was basically a re-run of the Turkish war of independence. The Greeks tried to take advantage of something that they perceived as weakness on the Turkish side, but, as before, they counted their eggs before they were laid. To make it as obvious as possible: I do not approve of ethnic cleansing. But let us not forget our cause and effect here. The Turks drove the Greeks out of minor Asia AFTER the Greeks had tried to annex Ottoman/Turkish territory. The Turks invaded Cyprus AFTER the junta tried to break the agreement. To give you a few analogies, the Sudeten Germans were driven out of the Sudetenland AFTER the Wehrmacht and the SS had invaded Czechoslovakia. The Kosovo Serbs were driven out AFTER the Belgrade regime had tried to ethnically cleanse the area. In all cases, it is unfortunate that the victorious side reacted with actions that in many cases undoubtedly amounted to ethnic cleansing. But it is naive to say the least that the reaction was unforeseeable in any of the aforementioned cases.
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@ Chris Camp & Nik
My understanding is that the Turks intervened in July 1974 after the junta inspired coup against Makarios, and in August 1974 extended their bridgehead to roughly one-third of the island, thereby ethnically cleansing a lot of Greek Cypriots. It cannot be argued that the junta was representing Greece, since it was a dictatorship, supported by the USA. So the situation is not clearcut, and actually quite complex.
I can understand the objection to Turkish settlers, which is based on similar grounds (4th Geneva protocol) as the objections towards Jewish settlers in the 1967 conquered territories. If you agree with the legality of the one, you should accept the legality of the other, and vice-versa. One can even argue that 'Cyprus is Greek since antiquity', and the Turkish Cypriots are 'recent' settlers since 1571.
What I don't understand is the notion of political equality between the Greek Cypriot and the Turkish Cypriot community, since the former comprises 80% of the population and the latter 18%. In the EU, the principle is one man, one vote, so why all of a sudden in Cyprus should this be different. This is the primary underlying cause of the disagreements between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots. After all, in 2004, more Greek Cypriots voted for the Annan plan than Turkish Cypriots + settlers (99976 vs. 77646), but this is rarely mentioned in this way (usually the percentages are quoted for each community).
As for the Turkish intervention, legally they should have restored the status-quo-ante, which they did not do. Hence the difference in treatment of the official Republic of Cyprus and the "TNRC".
As for the difference between the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish republic, it resides in the adoption of a different political philosophy. The Ottomans had an empire, with certain rules w.r.t. the subject peoples (i.e. relative freedom of religion, trade, etc.; the all important thing being the army, hence the forced conversion of subject children to Islam and the janissaries corps). The Turkish republic was an exclusive nationalist affair, just as the nations build by the former subject peoples (e.g. Serbs, Greeks, later Bulgarians, etc.). The Turks pretend that the transition was smooth and sudden (i.e. some term this 'the immaculate conception of the Turkish republic'), but in reality the regime of the Young Turks provided the transition, and made most of the damage (the Armenian "massacres/genocide" and the fire of Smyrna and the associated 'population exchange' annexed to the Lausanne treaty).
All of this is history now, but poorly understood by the average journalist in the Anglo-American world. After all, the primary role of Cyprus is to be an unsinkable aircraft carrier for the execution of the UK-USA intelligence operations (hence the Sovereign Base Areas, etc.), and as soon as an agreement threatens to become closer, the UK and USA assert themselves, and 'encourage' the negociation process (which actually makes life more complicated for the Cypriots).
As for the use of Greeks and Greek Cypriots in the EU, as 'quietoaktree' is asking about, they are no more or no less useful than the British. They are even in the Eurozone, and in Schengen land, hence more useful, in principle. They are just there, so put up with them, just as we (continental "Europeans") put up with the British ...
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Chris... once again you are embarassing yourself:
You give me a link where it speaks about the slaughters done by Greeks and Ottomans during the Greek revolution and it shows that:
1) Turks did much more slaughters than Greeks.
2) Greeks did slaughters only in the most major points of the conflict mainly after the successful siege of an Ottoman military outpost where Ottoman troops were inside.
3) Turks did slaughters pretty much everywhere and irrespective if there was any trouble. There was a revolution in Peloponese? Turks had the answer: slaughter Greeks in Peloponese, slaughter in Greeks Macedonia (note: Thessaloniki was in a few days cleared of ALL Greek population, by massacre of course... it is the same Pasha of Thessaloniki admitting it hiself!), slaughter in Konstantinople (and who can forget the declarations of Sultan Mehmet to foreign diplomats "Here it is Ottoman Empire and that is the way we like it!", slaughter in Minor Asia (ignored in the link obviously), slaughter even down in Cyprus...
... what can I say Chris? Pre-emptive slaughters? No, not even so. They jsut had found another justification to slaughter, loot, rape etc. Just like in 1955 when minor community troubles in Cyprus sparked a huhe pongrom against Greeks in ... Konstantinople killing, breaking, raping (go read... what do you wait?). 1955, these criminals are still alive today, you see...
As for Cyprus, you seem to ignore just evething I say why should I bother answering you?
I told you, Cyprus was a problem between Greeks and the British colonial force. Turks enterred by proxy and only after the British request. They had tried to invade in 1964 and 1966 but failed to organise it. Turkish army though is reponsible for killings of civilians and POWs which were totally out of the blue as well as ethnically cleansing all the north (ok, that I concede was demanded and orchestrated by the British). However, while the few houses of muslims in the south are there waiting for them, the many houses of Greeks in the north are not waiting for them as several tens of thousands of colonists were send to occupy them from Turkey and who are resented by Turkish Cypriots themselves. Ask them, not me.
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Re488: smroet... you simply said it all very concisely (and I do not hide I am impressed). I really should have nothing to add on top of what you said but I love to give my style of answers.
Re486:
1. You equate the US imposed dictatorship in Greece with the Turkish invasion, the massacre of civilians, the assassination of thousands of POWs, the ethnic cleansing of half a fairly big island? Not wise.
2. New hotels and Casinos have been built... on other peoples' land, you keep forgetting saying this.
3. So you say that Greeks and Greek Cypriots are wholly responsible for this mess -- and only them. Only them? Really? Is it my imagination or that Greeks were fighting the British, not the muslim minority up to the point of EOKA2 and Samson? Am I right or not? Now you go tell me how many times British arrested Samson (EOKA2) and how many times Palikaridis (EOKA1)? On what charges? And what was their fate? Have you ever seen also where Makarios came from and whom he represented? What about the musli militia who served as the "local Cypriot militia" for British? Weren't they armed or not? Did they do a massacre of 5,000 Greeks in 1930s or not? Did the Greeks reply? Obviously not. They tried to concentrate fighting the British. But you can't fight the British. Cos you end up battling with the Turks. Pakistan and India. So it was the fault of Indians only ins't it? Whatever...
4. "When will Greeks and Greek Cypriots stop blaming others for their Childishness ?"
I leave your phrase as it is. Kemaloturks speak like that. It is a typical nazi way of speaking. Chris above proved to wholeheartedly adopt such manners. Did not expect this from you.
You said also
"The Nazi Germans for their financial mess."
Who said so? You say this. No Greeks blamed the Nazis for current financial problems. Germans simply did not give war reparations to Greeks and the issue is very much open to our days. End of story.
Go back to "Blame it on the Germans" and read my messages. Do not say whatever.
You say:
"Turkey, who pleaded for the return of Makarios."
Makarios, you mean the fake priest that was placed by the British after the of the elderly mayby but quite sudden death of the previous archibishop whose doctor was murdered 1 week later? You mean the one that came from US after having lived there on the money of the "International Church" and other such niceties? Are you joking?
You said:
"The years of support of the National heroes Grivas and thugs who are honored by street names on Cyprus."
Yes I guess your British soul cannot accept that these people wanted independence from the violent British occupation (slaughter of 5,000 Greeks in 1932, hangings of 17 years old boys for empty weapon possesions etc.). What do you know and speak?
You said:
5. I also met a Greek who was born in Poland, His father was expelled as a Communist and was forbidden to return.
You met a Greek but was communist. His father was expelled for having participated in the civil war. Irrespective of political positioning communists were traitors. They never had any influence till 1941 when the British started paying them and arming them. No wonder. Who else? Unfortunately many good people were trapped in their propaganda and destroyed their own country and their own lifes. These people were forbidden to return because Greeks had to prove to US that they did their part in the anti-communist struggle.
You said:
"6. The British troops did not escort Turkish Cypriots to prevent the from committing suicide, but being murdered by Greek heroes."
Where you there to see it? Cos I tend to know people who themselves were there and I happen to know people from the closest villages next to the beach of the first Turkish invasion. They were cleared by English and told to flee to the south (the British army did so cos they knew that anyway Turks would do whole scale slaughter). If the Turks slaughtered only a few 1000s (and 1500 POWs) it is thanx to the British that did their best to clear Greeks beforehand).
You said:
7. The name Macedonia etc. etc.
That is my region. It is a coastal and oil-containing region in the corner of the Aegean. What about it? Is it the Greeks' fault that communist dictator Tito wanted to invade it and thought it was a good idea to transform Bulgarians into FYROMians so as to claim for Jugoslavia our land? Ask Generalissimo (he is Bulgarian, he will explain to you since you do not like to listen to Greeks...).
You said:
The childishness is exemplified each year at the stupid Eurovision Song Contest.
Greece 10 points and then Cyprus 10 points.
You killed me with this argument.
Actually we give usually 12 points to Cyprus. But we also give 10 points to Turkey too if they send a nice babe. We have our sensitivities.
You said:
Apart from being the cry-baby of Europe and throwing spanners into every thing Europe tries on its Southern flank unless its tantrums are accepted, I fail to see any use for Greece or Cyprus in the EU.
Well shouldn't you wonder why Greece is so important to the EU to be kept there in the state it is?
Sorry? No I am really sorry. I expect better than that.
Re488: smroet... you really did impress me with the knowledge of the region. There is a wiki-link (cos Chris prefers this way) on the Turkish invasion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
It has a good intro to the issue in reference to the background and it mentions details on both sides crimes. It is impressive to state that the famous Greek crimes against muslims that Chris refers actually included a similar number of deaths of Greeks, so one wonders what short of crime did Greeks there when they had been suffering the same by Turks, Turks who were the British militia of course, armed since priot to WWII (them the major) to enforce the "taksim" policy that suited British and Turks obviousy.
Hence none should be surprised why British had been all the way pro-turk in that affair (and not only...).
However, above all it gives a nice idea how a Greek-against-British struggle for freedom ended up in Greeks-against-Turks inter-fighting and British being the referees... That says it all
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Niki, @485
Sebastopol is Russia, Feodosia (Eastern Crimea tip) is Russia, cities in Crimea are Russia more or less, left half of Ukraine is;
Crimea - is not.
It's a thing of its own - they are islanders - with islanders' psychology.
Like the UK, if you wish.
Look at the map - it only seems to you Crimea is a semi-island. It's a visual trick of senses :o))))) They are an island, and are called "Ostrov Krym" - Island Crimea.
The only fit place IMHO in USSR collapse to become an own country :o)))
Long ready, mentality. Even Russians there are Crimeans.
Now, why would we harm those Crimean-Russian tribe, by declining to visit as tourists post USSR collapse.
There were reasons. 1./ When you go for hols - you don't live in cities but along the coast line, in villages.
Russians are concentrated in cities in Crimea. You won't like to swim between ships in a port, right? Inhale city buses and cars? You'd look for quite places with no nothing. (we would)
That's villages, and villages are sea-shore Ukrainians - in villages stretching along the sea coast. No fond memoirs from USSR of these house holders - nil.
In the opinion of the whole USSR - not Rusians only, mind it - rip-off prices for lousy accommodation.
Some idiotic bed in some corner of a private house. One room in a private house rented for 4.
No nothing toilet in the yard in a booth. Access to stove and electricty strictly measured :o)))) by the greedy house owner. Likewise to the bath taking. Once a day by agreement. And "you can put a kettle on but not after 8pm". Something like that.
Vampires. Spoiled. Greedy. Capitalising on the fact USSR lives behind the Iron Curtain, int'l swim places - closed out for all; whole USSR in summer runs to Crimea packed as sardines in a tin in private houses along the sea line. They never worked. They don't have to. They collect their yearly income in 5 months May-September, summer, by renting all sheds, huts, balconies (no joke. in peak season one was likely to chose btw renting a balcony! for crying out loud - or staying with a suitcase on the sea shore. I had to sveral times. Nice sea breese :o)))) Waves rustle rustle. Big dark sky in stars. You sleep on the sea-shore your suitcase by your head.
In the hope that tomorrow will be more time you might find accommodation. After all someone told that if to walk 15 streets more :o))))) knocking into all doors:o)))) there up the mountain :o))))
someone knows a sure shed not rented out yet. People are said to be leaving tomorrow. If they find train tickets :o))))
I lived in a meteo station on a hill.
In what seems to me to be a 2ndWW beton bunker :o)))
In a room by the ? kind of aquarium with dolphins.
At acquaintance.
At outdoor verandah boarded from mosqitoes by a kind of a curtain :o))))
In a large balcony (there were 2 of us :o)))))
In rented rooms where the adjacent room is rented by another family.
With constant competition for the bath taing times.
I was hiding electric kettles - and coffee makers - brought from St. petersburg with - under the bed. For if the apt. owner sees an electric kettle - she'll throw you off, for spending her electricity. It is her kettle only that should be used in the measured time she appoints.
I lived in a hammock in the garden.
I spent 20 summers there minimum.
That's Ukrainians.
Now; Cyprus..... :o))))))
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Russians do love Crimea. Given what we have all combined suffered:o)))) to be able to be there. No better proof required.
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We are a Northern country. Holidays here = sea.
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PS
Forgot. I also lived in a tent for a month, put in the middle of kolhoz laurel leaves field.
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I found you guys ...I figured it out, you go to other old threads that are close to the new ones ...ur so clever, WA...but anyway...have fun:))
The people in the current thread can be so ruuude to each other...freeborn john insulted threnodio II on his first day back????
I guess politics is soooo important lolool:)
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Im so sorry bout ur cat WA...have u noticed that anniversaries are sometimes worse than the event? Poor WA, hope you feel better.:)
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Also, WA, I have a purpose for you for the rest of your life,
Sell W. Ukrainians on becoming part of Russia ...it could be Russia's cultural other half (its California) but you'd say it is languishing without Russian management and won't achieve any of its lucrative possibilities w/o Russia as its government.
Crimea could unite you and Ukraine again. Isnt for instance Ukraine really Russia personified, but just upset over the previous era...shouldn't they be convinced by Russian speaking Ukrainians that this independence thing comes at their economic expense?
What is Kiev without St. Petersburg or Moscow, for instance? What is Crimea w/o Russian navy and tourists??? What is Ukraine without Russian culture? Hmmmm, Hmmmm????
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Things are even worse than we have analysed 2 months now...
... Mr. Papandreou & PASOK government plan to sign agreements for... the Naaaabbbbuuuuucccccoooooo. Ok, we'll get gas from Turkey and pass it on to Italy. But what is amazing is that Greece will be just a passage point, i.e. while Azerbaitzan will gain, Turkey will gain, Italy will gain, Greece will be just a passage point dragging a bit just for a % of its market.
This is no joke, Papandreou is really on this... afterall we said it, for Greece he brinks Saoudi liquified gas by ship (even more expensive than Nabucco, guess how much from Southstream...)
This is the last stroke. The next thing he will sell out lands. You just cannot imagine the amount of issues this man tries to pass under the tent this crisis created and these issues are not at all related to any effort of redressing the economy but will have the opposite effect. This man is a criminal. He has to be taken out as soon as possible and I am really willing to bet on the unknown...
I really do laugh with people speaking about the crisis and such... well that is the crisis... Greece can redress itself easier if having 25% deficit and goes on for the Southstream than have 13,5% (changed now as 12,5% was not enough! what a comedy...) and go on for Nabucco.
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The above was supposed to be in the thread "Greece: nobody can play with euro", but anyway.
I wonder how on earth can I be so accurate till now. I have foreseen Papandreou's steps 1 after the other.
We will see more from this dusgusting figure milked, fed since his birth to rise through immense manipulation, murders, and induced catastrophes to finish the work his father had started back in the 1980s (not to mention late 1960s - as it was also his actions that brought dictatorship in Greece).
With him there there is absolutely no vision of redressing the issue.
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Re" Sebastopol is Russia, Feodosia (Eastern Crimea tip) is Russia, cities in Crimea are Russia more or less, left half of Ukraine is"
Crimea was a Turkish Khanate.
If anybody can claim legitimate right to Crimea is Crimean Tartars and Meskheti Turks.
Butchered by Soviet Russia, and not allowed to regain their property by Ukraine.
Facts are stubborn things.
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