Explaining German angst over Greece
Crises usually come with sub-plots, back-stories. So, too, with the Greek bail-out. Sure Athens is being urged to slash its spending further, but the big squeeze is on the Germans.
Sometimes as you listen in on Europe's angst it would be easy to think that it was Germany that was to blame.
The thought crossed my mind yesterday after I had interviewed Nikolaus Blome, a political columnist for Bild magazine. When we had finished speaking he was patched through for a radio interview. I could not hear the questions but, at one stage, he said "there is no nationalism in Germany". I tried to imagine the question that had prompted his curt put-down.
Perhaps it was "are the Germans asserting their national identity?" I never found out.
Others, however, are sensing that the German character is being questioned again. Tom Buhrow, a news anchor with ARD, noted in an article in the International Herald Tribune that "old accusations start to fly. Is that what the European project is? Either Germany foots the bill or our past is invoked against us." For many Germans it must be that history is never expunged but merely parked, held in reserve, to be used against them if they get out of line.
Leave aside history and many fingers are pointing at Berlin rather than Athens. This was Poul Nyrup Rasmussen from the part of European Socialists: "The downgrading of Greece's credit rating and junk status is an indictment of Angela Merkel's policy of prevarication...all the time to put local politics before international solidarity." How quickly, it seems, some of the basic facts of this crisis are forgotten. The fiddling of Greek accounts. The deficit that had been hidden. A bloated Greek public sector. An economy that struggled to compete.
In this scenario Mrs Merkel's crime is an interesting one. She was sensitive to local politics. I have heard the same accusation in Brussels that the Germans were "letting politics get in the way".
Well German tax payers were being asked to loan Greece nearly 8bn euros. That is not small change. And then in the past few days it has become apparent that Germany could be in for 25bn euros. In Mr Rasmussen's view that is not worth deliberating over. Many Germans, I suspect, would politely disagree. That is what elected politicians are for.
What Angela Merkel has been negotiating over is firstly to ensure Germany gets its money back. Secondly, that Greece lives up to its promises by adopting convincing austerity measures, and thirdly, to ensure that Germany doesn't become a cash-point for all those eurozone countries running into trouble.
Often those who want a rapid rescue of Greece cite "solidarity". Greek ministers, of late, like the word. It is often favoured by those who want something. It is an appeal to a higher motive.
Talking to people yesterday in Berlin I did find a sense of valuing being part of the European club or family. It resonates with people. Where "solidarity" becomes dangerous, however, is when it is used to obscure a basic truth. Many believe it is one of the reasons the euro is in trouble today.
Angela Merkel openly questions whether Greece should have joined the single currency in the first place. The data was not analysed carefully enough, in her view. The motivation was "solidarity", to get as many countries into the euro as possible.
Hugo Brady of the Centre for European Reform says "the problem here is the recurring inability in the European project to say brutal truths honestly and clearly and to act on them in a realistic
manner".
Here are just a few of those brutal truths: the eurozone had no mechanism to deal with a country veering towards default. The criteria for allowing Greece into the eurozone was fudged. Brussels knew there were problems with the Greek accounts but preferred not to take the tough options.
Time and again during this crisis EU officials have asserted they had a deal that would save Greece. After a while when the deal evaporated the various announcements began to look like attempts to spin the market. Over four months of talks and summits it never worked.
The financial markets wanted more than words. Now the accusation is that the deal ran up against German "intransigence". Sometimes another basic truth is forgotten, that a "no bail-out" clause was written into the single currency's rules. It was one of the factors that persuaded Germans to abandon the mark for the euro, that they would not have to bail out the weak or the reckless.
So the Germans are unhappy. Some 65% of them, according to the latest polls, oppose a bail-out. It is not that suddenly they have become anti-European. It's just that as Tom Buhrow says, "we'll just not share the pin code of our ATM with you".
In the unsettled months ahead the EU will have to take a long, hard look at the single currency and whether countries with such different cultures and economies can share monetary union.
Germans value the euro and want to see it prosper as a strong and stable currency but, I sense, they want a debate rooted in reality and they won't play the role of scapegoat for the most severe crisis to challenge the single currency.
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There is another issue that is largely ignored by the press:
Germany has just undergone a constitutional reform that generally forbids making new debts. This reform has also introduced greater responsibility of the national level for the oversight over the spending of the federal states, thus raised general awareness for public spending. In addition, German communes are already complaining that their budgets are way to restricted to fulfil all their tasks, demanding more money and independence regarding their budgets.
And even though there is a constitutional clause that allows new deficits in crisis situations, the sums foreseen in the case of Greece put considerable pressure on national government regarding its political and financial plans for the future as well as regarding their relations with the regional and local administrations.
Julien of http://julienfrisch.blogspot.com
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I do find it very much a shame that the Germans are being brow-beaten into coughing up the dough. I am not an economist and do not know the implications on the eurozone (esp. germany) of telling the Greeks to take a hike and letting them sink. I'd like to see it though.
The Germans need to be assertive here and have every right to be. Stuff the war - its long over and Germany has admirably and honorably atoned and paid (and probably still paying) reparations.
The germans are right to play hardball as Germany is still an independent nation-state and Merkel has to answer to her constituents. And as I've said before, until the EU can slay the nation-state national politics will reverberate at the EU level, especially in times of crisis. I hope nobody is surprised by this! The EU leaders clearly think of these national/EU politicians as expendable. Use them up to further the EU, get them in trouble with their electorate and when they are chucked out of office do the same to the next leader.
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It would seem foolish to ask Germany to do what the banks did, invest in something that has been over-valued with a future of diminished returns on the investment....of course the banks were using other people's money. As the banks own much of these problems they should take a more accomodating role and try to help nations out of the mess that the banks themselves have caused. It is somewhat disconcerting that the bankers now want to play by the rules that they themselves did not follow in causing the financial meltdown. Maybe some adjustments should be forthcoming related to their profits or maybe jail time. As Germany faces citizen opposition to the loan, Greece faces citizen opposition to the reductions in services and higher taxes. Bankers are like dogs, they leave their mark and move on. The nations have the scoopers and have to clean up what has been left in their front yard. Maybe a crisis is necessary before the governments will be held to account for being the handmaidens for the bankers and new governments and relationships formed whereby the governments represents and protect the interest of the people rather than do as dictated by the banks and big business.
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Gavin,
There are a number of points you raise in your comments and I think that you have tried to explain a complex situation as clearly as possible.
Here we must take the view of the international markets and not get too dragged down by details. The problem is essentially that the European Union did not know that Greece's debt was as high as it turned out to be. This was a result of some creative accounting and basic lying. The question is: "Why didn't the European Union know of this?"
Once it did know, then it fudged, avoided, (whatever term you wish to use) to avoid facing this truth head on and dealing with it. The question is: "Why did the European Union not deal with this before it became a crisis?"
Once they realise it was a crisis it was left to Chancellor Merkel to force the debate and come up with a solution. That solution being that her own country, Germany, would pay a large share of its own money to bail out Greece. The question is: "Where are the other member states of the EU and where is their contribution?".
The essential problem with the European Union is that it is run by committee. No-one wants to make a decision; upset the apple cart; realise there is a problem; formulate a decision.
Lets be honest here - no-one working either for the European Parliament or European Commission ever thought that they would be placed in the position of having to make a decision.
Deciding on the length of bananas or discussing 'Green' issues was about as far as they had signed up for - as long as it didn't interfere with their lunch-breaks; holidays; sick-benefits; or taking the whole of August off to sun themselves in the south of France.
No-one in Brussels signed up for the EU expecting to work!
So how can you expect such an institution to be able to grasp with the concept of a crisis. Crisis, what crisis?
To give Chancellor Merkel her due, she (of all the other member leaders) did her best to save the integrity of the Euro, the European Union and the concept of a unified Europe. Sadly her other member colleagues were less enthusiastic. After all, the meetings probably broke into their extended lunch break.
So what are we left with? Chancellor Merkel desperately trying to save the Euro, while also balancing her need to satisfy her own voters in Germany. Personally I think she should be awarded a medal for trying to achieve the impossible.
Just as a foot note: What ever happen to the President of the EU? You know, that ex-Belgian Prime Minister who no-one can remember and often vaguely appears in photographs at the back of the room?
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Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
So what is Greece proposing to do to meet Germany's concerns?
Are the Greeks going to raise their retirement age to match Germany?
Are they going to raise taxes to cover the shortfall in revenues?
Are they going to put in tougher rules for their civil service?
Are they going to cut the size of the civil service?
Are the Greeks going to provide transparent accounts?
Have the Greeks agreed to give the German finance minister a line-item veto over Greek budget expenditures?
Have the Greeks agreed, in effect, to the appointment of a Receiver?
Are the Greeks going to accede to an outside independent audit of their accounts?
Are the people responsible going to be fired?
Are the people responsible going to jail?
Have the Greeks agreed to stop blocking the entry of Northern Cyprus into the EU?
Have the Greeks agreed to stop opposing the entry of Turkey into the EU?
Have the other nations in the EU agreed to scrap the Common Agricultural Policy, or to cut its budget by at least 80%?
The Germans aren't fools. If they agree to provide so much as a pfennig before the Greeks have actually irrevocably committed themselves to all of these measures, then they will have only themselves to blame when the next batch of news comes out, and, once again, the truth turns out to be even worse than we are being told.
Alternatively, the Germans should pay the money on one condition, the condition that The Economist has proposed more than once: That Greece leave the EU.
It would be a bargain.
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Why do they have to bail out Greece? Why not leave it default like (non EU) Iceland did? What is the problem with this? That they will lose credibility as a European Union? They should remember they are Union years earlier and support real development, not fiestas that only fill their commands lists.
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Gavin: a good article in support of (German) financial probity.
Yet again we are being told that a deal is almost done and that everything will be hunky dory.
It ain't and it won't.
Within 6 months Greece will default. At that point it will either have to leave the Euro or drag the Eurozone down with it.
If I was a Greek with savings in a Greek bank I'd withdraw them pronto. Once die has been cast accounts will be frozen and assets converted to highly discounted 'New Drachma'.
I hope you (Greeks) don't treat these cautions with the same disbelief that you treated those of your erstwhile countrywoman, Cassandra.
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Interestedforeigner @6
Great post!
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Mr. Hewitt,
Concerning Nyrup Rasmussen, whom I know quite well, let us not forget that he is helping his social democratic friends in Germany, and they have started a complicated play. They accept the support of Greece but at the same time they attack Merkel.
Still: All parties in Bundestag have today said that they will accept that the rules of legislation can be treated generously so that the necessary law in the matter Greece can be passed quickly.
I do indeed appreciate that you have talked with some German sources. I think you should also take a good look at the speech president Köhler, the former IMF leader, made today. He is from Merkel's CDU, and they all have their eyes directed at the banks. Like president Obama.
Chancellor Merkel has not been perfect in this matter, we remember that Germany changed its position a couple of times during the process, but the financial markets have indeed increased the crisis, and that is being said very clearly in Germany these days.
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As a Brit who has been living in Germany for nearly two years now, I have made two observations, both of which I find very interesting.
1.) "The German Past", as the years under Adolf Hitler are often euphemistically/idiotically referred to over here, is not a burden on the German national conscience. In many ways, it has almost become something of an asset. The Schroder government invoked "The German Past" to justify the NATO bombardments to stop the genocide in Kosovo in 1999. "The German Past" is also the invariable justification the German arms industry has for its dealings with Israel. "The German Past" is a convenient justification for Germany to stay out of geopolitical conflicts or side with nations whose policies would otherwise be hard to justify.
2.) Germany's attitude towards Europe has not changed in 50 years. This is remarkable, given how many fundamental changes both Germany and Europe have undergone since the 1960s. This time, it is different though. Germans are realising that it has been wrong in assuming that all the other members of the EU have been as invested in the European idea as Germany has. They see how other Europeans accuse them of not showing solidarity in a moment of need and they are wondering where Greek solidarity was when Germany subsidised the Greek economy through its EU surplus and Greece ran all of it up the wall. No matter what the outcome of the current crisis, whether the bailout works or not, German attitudes towards EU will never be the same again.
The irony of all of it is that unlike all of those "Eurosceptic" countries, whose citizens never grow tired of say they'd be better off outside the E.U., Germany might actually do better outside the E.U.
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Germany's exactly right on this.
If Greece had suffered from a freak crisis and wasn't to blame for it itself things would be different.
Instead they not only caused their meltdown, they even lied to us! And now they come begging for money and pointing fingers at those who refuse to give in.
I don't support helping Greece here. Let it solve it's own problems. I wouldn't expect a bail-out either if we messed up our economy.
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To educate yourself on the BIG picture read this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2010/04/rating_agencies_who_made_them.html
To educate your ... Ignorance on Greece read this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/how_can_the_financial_crisis_i.html
>> 272. At 11:13am on 29 Apr 2010, Alan Butler wrote:
There is a lot of ignorance being displayed here about Greece.
I have lived and worked in Athens for thirty years.
During that time I have never once felt obliged to offer a bribe, or a 'present' for services rendered.
I have often paid in cash for services, knowing full well that the recipient would be avoiding tax, but that happens just as often in other European countries, including Britain.
The great majority of Greeks are hard-working people living on lower wages and paying higher prices than most Europeans.
They have just been badly let down by one self-serving government after another.
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Gavin,
I agree with you quite strongly on this. I find it quite ironic that this exact situation was the main fear Germany had when the Euro and EMU were being mooted and discussed in the 90's and that the apparent safeguards in place appear to be less than the paper they are printed on.
Greece has got nobody to blame but herself here after overspends on projects like the Olympics (with many of the venues now sitting unused) and an over-inflated public budget. The fact that they appear to refuse full responsibility for the mess they have themselves in is astonishing, especially as they attempt to blame Germany for holding up a deal to bail them out.
I hope that a deal can be reached as the Euro is needed as a strong currency, not only for the sake of Europe but as a counter to the hegemonic force of the U.S. Dollar. Although I also hope that Merkel and co stand their ground on this and force Greece into what can only be argued is much needed domestic reform which in hindsight should have been instigated before an economy as flawed as theirs is was permitted to join. It is also rediculous that Germany is made to feel guilty about events that are not only history but nothing to do with the current mess the EU has managed to get itself into.
For once i am glad that Britain was 'awkward' regarding entering the Euro as the last thing we need is to be dragged into bailing out a weakened economy that threatens to bring down the currency when we are struggling with our own national debt not to mention that we have only recently exited recession (something Greece is yet to do according to the latest figures) so our economy is still in a fragile state.
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Interestedforeigner wrote:
Have the Greeks agreed to stop opposing the entry of Turkey into the EU?
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If you had bothered to research before posting, Greece is more supportive of Turkey joining the EU than France and Germany who oppose. Not that it has something to do with the discussion anyway.
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Interestedforeigner also wrote:
"Have the Greeks agreed to stop blocking the entry of Northern Cyprus into
the EU?"
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TRNC cannot join the EU since it is an illegal occupation of a sovereign nation, the Republic of Cyprus (EU Member). As long as the international community does not recognize it as a sovereign nation and as long as the rest of the EU does not consider it an illegal occupation then no matter what Greece says makes no difference. Plus, it is up to the Cypriots to decide whether to re-unite or find another solution. Cyprus is a different country from Greece.
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Gavin wrote: "In the unsettled months ahead the EU will have to take a long, hard look at the single currency and whether countries with such different cultures and economies can share monetary union."
You might also add: or will want to share monetary union. If or as other countries begin to fall, is Germany going to be expected to bail them out too?
And the French, what happened to them? They seem curiously quiet. Did they cover their eyes and hope nobody could see them. What are they going to pay? Or have they lost interest in an organization they can no longer manipulate for their own benefit?
If Greece is bailed out, then how do you not bail out Portugal and Spain or any other country that gets into trouble. I think the Germany is right to worry about the Pin number to their ATM machine. It looks like several countries are lining up for access to their account.
Monetary union has always seemed unworkable to me and for the reasons Gavin states. Almost any system will work when things are good. But without a single source controlling monetary policy, monetary union is bound to get into trouble when the going gets rough.
The other problem, it seems to me, is that the EU has managed the appearence of government but not the substance.
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Again the simplistic argument of bad Greeks, good Germans. Give me a break Gavin. This is not serious. It is am insult to your intelligence. I find the views here preposterous to say the least.
If you believe all this simplistic nonsense that there is no problem whatsoever with anything else than Greeks, please do not bail out Greece. Why do you aid Greece then? Please don't! At the end of the day, if you are unhappy with Euro just return to the Mark. Greeks would be happy to default and get rid of their incompetent government (get rid of Euro also!). Advice to all: if you are unhappy with the decision of your governments to help Greece vote your governments out and leave Greece alone. You will make us a big favour!
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And by the way since this has been mentioned again. Reparation to Greece is an open issue (official Greek position). We have discussed this thoroughly many a time on other occasions. It is not related to the current crisis so it shouldn't be raised now.
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Vassilis - I agree with you. Maybe there should be a union of northern countries and a big fence just after the alps
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@11 Chris Camp
"The irony of all of it is that unlike all of those "Eurosceptic" countries, whose citizens never grow tired of say they'd be better off outside the E.U., Germany might actually do better outside the E.U."
I am with Robert Mundell on this one:
Germany IS the EU. And if it leaves, the EU is done for.
But, of course, Germany will never leave.
What is not mentioned a lot these days is the fact that in Germany, the distress about financial markets and (investment) banks is growing fast.
There is a growing number of people who would rather have Greece default and the Hypo Real Eastate (most involved German bank) go down without bailout.
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@Gheryando
Why not. If you feel like it, please go ahead.
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Its obviously a silly idea but it captures the feeling of many Germans and other people who have run their economies in a more responsible way. I do not advocate a fence. But there is an invisible fence which divides two very different mentalities. One is one of personal and community responsibility and the other is a Macchiavellian, zero-sum, mentality that is, as we can see, simply not sustainable anymore.
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Here are just a few of those brutal truths:...The financial markets wanted more than words...
And Gavin still thinks that what the "financial markets" want should be given like that. He refuses to see the "big picture", i.e. that the "financial markets" and their machinations brought us this crisis in 2007/2008, and that they should be taken to account for it. His 'understanding' of the very right wing attitudes expressed by Bild and the Springer concern, a blight in the German intellectual landscape for many decades now, is very disturbing. Why accept the dictatorship of the 'financial markets'? Sooner or later these 'financial markets' will attack the UK debt situation head-on. And then what ???
The German trade with Greece in 2009 amounts to about 8.6 billion euros (imports + exports). The total German trade in 2009 was 1.8 trillion euros, with a surplus of 134 billion euros. So 8.2 billion euros in 2010 is peanuts if it is seen as the price to pay (loan to Greece at 5% interest) to keep the euro. So what are we talking about? Is small minded reasoning the only game in town these days?
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Max, Cassandra was a Trojan, not a Greek.
According to the Greek trade union representatives who met with the Greek PM tonight, there will be a 15% cut on all salaries and pensions.
However, the real party will begin when the Greeks realise that tens of thousands of temporary civil servants will be sacked in the next months thus making the unemployment rate soar.
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#11 Chriscamp
I was in Berlin at the time of the Munich Olympics and experienced the national anguish at the time.
Where I worked many were crying and others were weeping as they were reading the free `BIld´ special newspaper editions on the street. I have never witnessed such a feeling of national grief in my life !
While I do agree that after this affair the German attitude towards the EU may and perhaps should change, your introductory comments that Germans see their history ´as an asset´is particularly repulsive. Perhaps another choice of words would be more acceptable ?
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@6 interestedforeigner -
So what is Greece proposing to do to meet Germany's concerns?
Are the Greeks going to raise their retirement age to match Germany? - The universally acknowledged retirement age will be 65 if i am not mistaken, for both men and women.
Are they going to raise taxes to cover the shortfall in revenues? - Sure, how about a VAT at 23 or 25% as its debated recently? Imagine the joy. Also, most expensive petrol in Europe, at over 1.60-1.70 EUR in non-metropolitan areas? Terrific stuff.
Are they going to put in tougher rules for their civil service? - 15% paycuts across the board. Including all pensioners, from the private and public sector alike.
Are they going to cut the size of the civil service? - 1 new entry for every 5 retirements.
Are the Greeks going to provide transparent accounts? - Yes, because the ECB and IMF are here and will demand stuff "or else".
Have the Greeks agreed to give the German finance minister a line-item veto over Greek budget expenditures? - Even better, they gave the IMF and EU representatives a free pass to dictate whatever they want for the country, no objections posed.
Have the Greeks agreed, in effect, to the appointment of a Receiver? - Yes. You havent seen the IMF-backed measures yet, but the answer would be yes.
Are the Greeks going to accede to an outside independent audit of their accounts? - If you consider the IMF / ECB / Eurostat altogether as "independent", then its happening already.
Are the people responsible going to be fired? - Based on the fact that most of them are politicians and such, and their felonies have "expired", I doubt that.
Are the people responsible going to jail? - See above.
Have the Greeks agreed to stop blocking the entry of Northern Cyprus into the EU? - No. It's not a country, so it may as well go to hell. Reunite with the South and it'd be an instant entry.
Have the Greeks agreed to stop opposing the entry of Turkey into the EU? - Greece has always supported the entry of Turkey into the EU. We'd buy less weapons this way, too.
Have the other nations in the EU agreed to scrap the Common Agricultural Policy, or to cut its budget by at least 80%? - No idea. Why, does Greece get the CAP funds by itself? Do we have all farmers in the EU?
The Greeks aren't fools. The current power-play results in a dramatic decline in the country's everyday life, where the IMF already dominates, because the Germans / EU / IMF will send A (huge) LOAN TO GREECE!
Every country will profit from this situation, from the interest alone. Germany, in particular, will profit quite nicely, for sending over to Greece "only" some few billions of EUR per year, for 3 years.
Also, let me re-post for you the IMF measures and the current status in Greece:
They are not 100% official (the full scale of measures will be officially confirmed by Sunday I believe), but they are more or less the following:
Abolition of the “13th and 14th” salary in the public sector, for a net income reduction of at least 14.5 %.
Abolition of the same provisions for all pensioners, in both the private and public sector (who are already on humiliating pensions in very many cases).
Salary freeze for the public + private sector until 2013 or 2014.
Conversion of the ’13th and 14th salary’ in the private sector to an (optional, I suppose) performance bonus stipend, by law.
Abolition of union negotiations for yearly increases or adjustments to their working terms and conditions, with the employer unions.
Abolition of mediation by independent ombudsmen to resolve stalled negotiations between employee unions and employer organizations.
Increase of VAT by 2-4%, to 23 or 25%.
Increase of the allowed redundancy percentage per month from 2% to 4% (in private sector businesses).
Decrease of compensation owed to the employee following redundancy by corporate decision / responsibility, from the current maximum of 2 years' worth of wages if an employee worked there for 25 years.
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This information came out following a PM meeting with heads of employee / worker unions as well as employer / trade unions, so although we do not know the specifics 100%, we’ll find out pretty soon.
It goes without saying that if some of these measures are true (such as yearly reduction of 15% in PENSIONS across the board), I expect riots to take place one way or another. The minimum pension in certain cases is 400 or 500 EUR per month, and a pensioner living alone usually cannot live with that.
Considering that certain benefits here are already too low (unemployment benefit? 200-250 EUR / month for 6-12 months depending on the circumstances, nothing more under any circumstances. Youth unemployment benefit for people up to 30 years old unable to find a job? 77 EUR / month for 6 months, et al), I expect riots to take place sooner or later. Emigration suddenly sounds quite tempting to a lot of people, and I know I will arrange it in the next couple of years at most for myself.
I understand, from an educated person's POV that you have the right to feel cheated. Imagine how do people in Greece, having to respond to THESE measures (and others), feel, about the "quality" of our politicians, bankers, and whoever else felt the need to cheat everyone in the EU in order to join the Euro or whatnot.
People here don't miss the Euro or the Eurozone. They miss their purchasing power, which has gone to hell with the price hikes and super-high inflation Greece has had for the past 10 years. Kick us out of that system? Barring the short-term consequences...Be our guest!
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#21 Durstigermann
Since WW11 Germany stands alone as a Financial Superpower who has used its wealth for the benefit of its own citizens and many other countries. I am not German.
Germany has every right to go its own way and perhaps now, it must !
Prost.
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27. At 10:25pm on 29 Apr 2010, Sovjohn wrote:
Good answers, I was too busy with work (yes some people in Greece even work that late!) and just focused on the two eyesores.
Just wanted to add that all these measures, apart from cutting costs, will significantly shrink and almost ruin the economy.
25% VAT? This will kill the market and will end up bringing even less money from VAT for the government. It won't help tourism either (our largest industry) now that the tourist season is starting.
Cutting the 13th and 14th salaries. This was always something that the Europeans disliked about us, although other countries have it too and its just a matter of the number of installments that the annual salary is paid in, it is not a matter of lazy Greeks (I love that) getting more money as a bonus for being lazy. It was good for the economy during high-business season for shoppers (Easter-Christmas) but now even less for the economy. Plus, these two salaries gave some billions to the government on taxes and public insurance/pension funds. There goes that too..
As for fuel rises, I expect many prices on goods to increase because of that.
In general, still fun times for Greeks... can't wait to see how many more grannies and pensioners will be scrapping food from waste bins! Such nice images from an EU country.
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Well I am not a genius, but I never recall Greece economy being so great before they became part of the EU or for that matter the next 2 or 3 countries or maybe more who economies are going to fail, and yes they are comimg. So where is the suprise? The EU has been on this rapid expansion kick for sometime and everyone thought it was great. So now comes the responsibility of taking care of the club. We wanted the influence on the national stage when things are rosey so now its time to pay up. Otherwise everybody better re-think the Grand Vision of yesteryear. Welcome to the World EU.......
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Talking to people here in Greece, you get a feeling of resignation, Way too much blaming and insecurity. More people are ready to default than people going to fight for something.
Beware of what you wish for. There are lots of people here that prefer default over austerity right now and you can get your wish.
And don't tell me that default means austerity. Default means not paying interest and we get a surplus in our budget if we don't pay interest. Your wish is our command...
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Re33: Christo, resignation is to continue play this "threnodia" that can only bring hystrical "thumidia". IMF or default, for Greeks it will be harsh. However in the first solution, the crooks that got Greece into this will maintain the mass of their gains, in the second we might have a chance of at least some partial cleaning as the relative financial isolation will mean that crooks will get the hell out of the country (and what they gained, they gained, but the story ends there.
Default in Greece has to be accompagnied by a swift shift of allegiances and a move to Russia to engage it in the physical protection of Greece from an eventual aggression of Turkey and/or Albanomuslim guerillas. If the military threat is contained, it is certainly the most correct strategy.
Note that with the increasing hatred of Europeans against Greeks (and there is a hatred that is cultivated among the non-knowledgeable masses), there will be absolutely no sympathy for us so having closer ties with Russia is wise.
It is time Greece enters in the game more players and plays the one against the other. Our interests are not where we have placed them the last decades - they have attacked us even military and 1000s of Greeks have died and suffered - only that we forget being fed propaganda and loans.
In whatever Greece wants to do the most imortant is to have Jeffrey out. He is a traitor. He is decomposes Greece. He rushes to "end" all issues during this crisis ... it is unbelievable the hatred that this man has against Greece (a country that is not his own and never felt as his own). I have to go down to Greece since Christmas but from the people I talk, it seems that still a large part of the population does not realise what is going on and they think that Jeffrey still tries to contain the crisis. It is unbelievable! This man works so that they will have no house and perhaps no life tomorrow, and people still hope .... it is perhaps this human characteristic, a closely related syndrome to the Stocholm syndrome (identification with the criminal in hostage situations) according to which when a criminal has taken hostage an innocent man the man still tries to believe in the best possible intentions of the criminal... only to be proven wrong and paying the heavy price. These victimised Greeks know unconsciously that Jeffrey is they to sell them and their country but still they try to believe that he will do at the end something to help a bit the country.
I am afraid that no he won't. He has been clear on this. Jeffrey all these six months has initiated himself the crisis (I mean pressing the final button, not creating the root cause - that is his father who did it!!!!), he has himself worked along with Merkel hand in hand to put Greece in the most possible difficult situation, he has closed his eyes and ears from all other voices of reason and his has in parallel undertaken a long series of issues which if dealt now during this crisis (and it is not needed!) and if dealt with the way he intends it will be absolutely catastrophic for Greece and Greeks.
You do not understand but right now Jeffrey sells Greece's soverignty...not just ressources and such but LAND! And with this, the lifes of us and our kids. If we go on like that Greece is lead mathematically to EU expulsion and complete Jugoslavisation (see radicalisation of illegal muslim immigrants, radicalisation of Albanians, Kosovar Albanians coming down to create problems in the south etc.), no matter if 20 years earlier it had been one of the most stable and homogeneous countries in Europe. Jeffrey right now signs for all these.
We have to remain with open eyes. National issues like Aegean are not discussed during such a crisis. It is treason. Jeffrey intends to do so. He has to go down one way or another before it is too late.
In my worst scenario, he will go down in a few months but only after having signed the destruction of this country and a new pathetic government undertake saying "we can't do anything now". No! You always can do something.
People must protest not only for their wages but first of all for their own future, it is not just wages the issue here, put it good into your mind.
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One question of interest is to find out which banks are exposed to the Greek government debt. A discussion on FT Alphaville indicates that the French exposure of 78 billion dollars is primarily due to the 91% stake of the Credit Agricole in the 'Emporiki' bank. A strange thing occured with the Swiss exposure, which dropped from 64 billion dollars to 4 billion dollars in the last quarter of 2009. Explanation offered : the EFG group moved a division from Geneva to Luxembourg. EFG is controlled by Spiros Latsis, a Greek friend of Jose Manuel Barroso, the EU commissioner (one is entitled to choose his friendships, obviously).
If Greece defaults, Latsis will take undoubtedly take a 'haircut', but somehow I think that he can weather this better than a Greek pensioner who has to take a 15% cut on 650 euros/month and face the increase in the cost of living imposed by a IMF/EU austerity plan. But perhaps Gavin can offer a good word for the 'Angst' of hard working Greeks making a living in banking abroad.
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Re6: You are not an InterestedForeigner but a DeviousForeigner... you pretend to ask a number of as-if standard questions and then put inside this:
"""Have the Greeks agreed to stop blocking the entry of Northern Cyprus into the EU?"""
Forget about asking why on earth should Greece have any obligation to recognise an illegitimate regime created by the ethnic cleansing that the invading Turkish army commited and the influx of Anatolian immigrants who took the stolen houses and lands of Greeks?...
... stick to this: can you explain to me WHAT on earth does this issue has to do with the Greek crisis?
Really you do not seem to be genuinely interested either in Greeks or Germans' pockets. You are just a Greek hater happy with the current crisis. The web is full of you.
You got your answer in the referendum of Cyprus and it represents the views of mainland Greeks.
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#27 sovjohn
Ask any Greek villager how life was before EU entry. The grand-parents will know how to survive with no EU subsides, if the worst comes to the worst.
The transition from cheese and olives to tourism was a godsend for small communities, that will remain.
An economy of 1/3 tourism, 1/3 shipping and 1/3 other, is hardly diversification or an invitation to ´be our guest´
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3: Not worth replying to your pointless monologue - diatribe. Obviously everybody else is at fault for the mess you've all got yourselves into. That's exactly the attitude which has led to the disaster. Grow up, become responsible for what you do as a nation, as individuals. Stop pointing fingers at others who are obviously trying to help.
16: Greece (not South Cyprus) threatened to veto the whole EU enlargement to the East if South Cyprus was not alone allowed to join EU, after they voted down re-unification with the North, as you well now. The EU maintains the position that the whole of Cyprus was admitted to EU, and genuine Turkish Cypriots are regarded EU citizens (in theory - doesn't mean much in practice since the South tries to boycott free exchange of people and goods).
The South speaks no more for the whole of Cyprus than the North, by the way. The only place where you still find bilingual signs in the South, is within the British army bases.
I hope that TRNC is recognised internationally ASAP - the South doesn't want reunification so we can as well acknowledge the fact that they are 2 Cyprus' which speak for the two communities (yes they are two!).
18: You should be careful what you ask for. "Leave Greece alone" - literally? It's not like the rest of Europe is desparate to throw money down the pit, they are actually trying to help out in solidarity, and don't deserve to be insulted for that. We can indeed avoid all that political trouble, discussion, sacrifices by all other Euro members if we leave Greece alone. Pfew!
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@28 quietoaktree
"#21 Durstigermann
Since WW11 Germany stands alone as a Financial Superpower who has used its wealth for the benefit of its own citizens and many other countries. I am not German.
Germany has every right to go its own way and perhaps now, it must !
Prost."
I`m not sure whether you`re being sarcastic or not.
What I was referring to is that Germany is one of the main driving forces behind the European integration, next to France.
It was never my intention to elevate Germany over other contributors, just because it happens to be bigger than other wealthy countries.
Plus I don`t think that Germany should leave.
I just stated what quite a few Germans seem to think.
In my opinion, those ppl who want Greece to leave or to default are wrong.
There has never been such a long time of stability and peace in Europe. That alone is proof enough for me that Robert Schuman was right and the European integration is a good thing.
We just need to keep an eye on how it`s done.
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#36 nik
You have not been to North Cyprus nor it appears to have lived through or followed the politics of the time.
So please stop the Enossis-Grivas-Greek military dictatorship propaganda.
Ecevit gave Greece and Britain enough time to restore Makarios. The few days of Samson was ended by the intelligent Greek officers who told him to get lost and go play in the traffic.
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A German citizen Before the Euro with 10 marks in his/her pocket could buy 3 items in Greece.
The Same German citizen After the Euro with the Same 10 marks (in Euros now) in his/her pocket could buy ... 9 items (x3!!!!) in Greece!!!!
This RIP OFF took place with the expected return of ... having a valuable and stable currency, which proved to be FRAGILE as GLASS when some/any 3rd-party non-EU and also recently-proven-dirty 'financial institutions' that are the Oligarchy of modern life decided to ... play their Profit games (like they should be affecting the EU at all).
But of course Germany is Benefited from a lower-value Euro etc ... any idea how much Money they Do make in a day as the world's 2nd/3rd biggest exporter when the Euro goes down in stock markets????????????????????
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@ 40, quietoaktree wrote:
#36 nik
You have not been to North Cyprus ...
>> apparently not, as that 'fantasy place' does NOT exist but in your head! Despite all best efforts from Greek and Cypriot traitor politicians, no one recognizes some state that became 'true' with Violence, Murders and Invasion in one night!!
There is only 1 single Cyprus which is divided by Barbarians ... and kept as such by EU Barbarians only because it is not lucky enough to have ... oil or other wanted resources, because if it did it would have taken 6mins to solve the issue and not ... 36 years!!
So 'quietoaktree' please spare us the propaganda and/or the ignorance ... unless you are from there or have ... pre-invested in those lands which means that you are expecting ... benefits/money from the same!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To me, the coverage largely ignores the vital point: Greece runs huge fiscal deficits and has a trade deficit of over 30 Billion a year. It doesn't matter much how big the bailout will be, if they don't turn arount you have to bail 'em out over and over again. For the coming years the Euro-zone will have to carry large sums of money into Greece. How much is basically up to Greece. If this turns a habbit with flawed EMU-members it will become unaffordable und ultimately break the Euro and the EU with it. For this reason you have to put on pressure to force action. The Greek government itself couldn't push through all neccessary hardship so somebody has to play the rough part. I actually thought that was what the IMF was brought in for but it somehow apparently sticks with the Germans now.
What Merkel does is the only responsible way to manage this situation.
It will not work out by just handing over the credit card. It surely could have been handled better but we are all left with the polititians offered so I consider it a big letdown that as it looks none will support Germany in its very reasonable and responsible behavior to keep the Euro together and instead put the scapegoat on it.
The EU will not fail because of the Germans but Germans might find themselves betrayed.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
My comment @29 has been "referred to the moderators".
It contained a 'thank you' to G_rizzly @25 for correcting my flawed grasp of Greek mythology, and a famous and relevant latin quote from Virgil's Aeneid.
Does the fact that this has been 'moderated' demonstrate a worrying downward trend in British education?
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#41 Tassos
Your arguments ( like Niks´) sound Greek to me !
A Euro is a Euro Is a Euro-- and with any other name would smell (or stink) as sweet.
I just fail to see that German Euro is worth more than the Greek Euro.
The Californian $ is worth less than the Nebraska $ ?????
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Greece,
i think you should leave the EU and apply become the 52nd American state.Greeks here in America will welcome that,elate edo re paidia,America is your home too.Leave the Europeans to deal with the illegal immigrants,the non-industrialisation,the crappy Euro,and having half your country turned into marine and wildlife sanctuaries....you can't eat beauty.America stands with you,Greece.
USA baby!
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"Angela Merkel openly questions whether Greece should have joined the single currency in the first place.
Why doesn't she question whether or not Germany should have joined the single currency in the first place...or if there should have been a single currency in the first place...or if the EU should have remained what it was billed at in the first place, a free trade zone? Why doesn't she question whether Germany should have told so many lies...to Europe...to the EU...and most of all to itself. Why doesn't she question whether or not the whole sordid failed European project was nothing but one big fraud built more on trying to make reality out of what was pure fantasy than on hard economic, political, cultural, and demographic facts. It might have mattered years ago but it hardly matters at the end anymore. All that will do is be a footnote in Europe's epitaph. At the rate things are going we may not be long to wait. What odds are the bookies in London giving that the EU won't last the summer?
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#42 Tassos
Greek 10 points then later Cyprus 10 points, year after year after year after year.
And Europe or international politics should take crybabies and children seriously ????
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#39 durstigermann
I am not sure if my response to you has been stopped by the moderators.
My remarks were not sarcastic, it is my true belief.
Germany is the only financial superpower who can hold its head morally high since WW2.
If any German or non-German wishes to cross swords on this, Ich bin bereit !
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This new moderator shift appears to be a strict governess -- bend over Marcus
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stfn;
"What Merkel does is the only responsible way to manage this situation."
You don't get it. There is no resposible way to manage this situation, it is unmanagable, beyond solving. The Europeans in general an the Germans and French in particular have engineered another of their now famous situations, painted themselves into a corner there is no getting out of. Advanced chess players will understand the concept embodied in the term "zugzwang."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang
Every move is fatal. Whichever way Germany turns to avoid one calamity sends it right into the arms of another. There is no way out. There is something particularly pleasing at watching such a dilemma play itself out from a safe distance. Which way will it turn? By what route does it choose to be broken? The frustration must be unbearably intense. What the rest of Europe doesn't get is that it is in exactly the same position, it faces the same grim prospects as Germany. They probably won't know it until it hits.
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@41 Tasos
"But of course Germany is Benefited from a lower-value Euro etc ... any idea how much Money they Do make in a day as the world's 2nd/3rd biggest exporter when the Euro goes down in stock markets????????????????????"
It is a wrong assumption that a less valuable currency / devaluation of a currency always leads to higher export figures, thus benefits an export nation.
The DMark was one of the most valuable and stable currencies in Europe, yet the German export economy had no problems selling stuff.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
27. Sovjohn.
That was a good answer.
Still think that paying Greece to leave the EU would be a bargain, though.
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acorn brain;
"Germany is the only financial superpower who can hold its head morally high since WW2."
Does that include the skinheads who beat Turks, Roma, Jews, and anyone else they don't like in Germany? What about the German police who turn their heads the other way and ignore it when those crimes are reported to the point where they aren't usually even reported anymore. And I suppose that gives Germans the illusion crime there is going down.
How about the Germans who made so much money out of selling arms to Saddam Hussein illegally contravening the UN sanctions, are they among those morally high Germans too? What about all those corrupt German corporations with their illegal kickbacks? Also among Europe's most moral? And what about the Germans who suddenly won't fight in Afghanistan because it's against their religion even though the US was attacked and they have clear obligations under the NATO treaty, is that an example of their morality? What about their insistance on the Growth and Stability pact in Maastrict with heavy fines they insisted on and then didn't pay when they and the French were the most persistant and flagrant violators? Do you suppose it was their persuasive rhetoric in the EU court that got them out of it or something more sinister? Is that another example of their morality? How ironic that to capitalize for themselves in the short run by evading fines for offenses they committed they helped wreck whatever chance the EU had for survival by removing the underpinnings of the only defense it had against what is happening now.
And how about the German Pope Benedict (previously Ratzinger) who helped cover up sexual predator priests in Wisconsin, is he among your highly moral Germans too? What would you say if he were indicted by a Grand Jury?
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Something which has been completely overlooked by both Hewitt and the unwashed masses on this blog is that Germany has used the EU as an instrument of national gain at the direct expense of other, smaller European states.
Anyone who wants to do some research can discover that German capitalists (both bankers and industrialists) have generated huge profits at the expense of the public funds of other member states.
This is particularly true of eastern Europe, but it also true in Greece.
Let me explain this argument in some detail, as it is worth considering the true nature of the EU institutions, and whether the rhetoric of "ever closure union" is window dressing for economic imperialism within Europe by the larger powers.
Firstly, it is not hard to understand how German bankers and investors have profited from Greece's public debt. After all, from whom did the greeks borrow the money, and to whom do they pay interest? Assuming they can afford to do so, I mean.
The answer is, to a very considerable extent, Germans. Germans have profited and continue to profit from Greek debt. German investors were not third party bystanders when the greeks were borrowing more than they could afford. German investors rushed headlong and greedily to loan money, and indeed it is precisely the self interest in private profits for the German investors which is driving the current demands for a rescue package to greece. If greece defaults, a huge number of wealthy german investors will take a bath. And it is THEY who want the german tax payer to ensure their private profits, rather than the evil greek cheaters. And yet Hewitt and numerous others simplistically paint the scenario as Germans bailing out Greeks.
Another aspect of the German willingness to exploit the structure of EU "governance" to the detriment of the smaller states public finances can only be understood properly when one looks at how EU loans were spent in the smaller states. Vast sums of money was lent to the Baltic states and to the PIIGS by the "EU", meaning that the money came from the state coffers of Germany. Effectively, the EU was a mechanism whereby German government money was loaned to smaller, poorer states. And that mechanism, the EU programs for "assistance and development loans", came with numerous strings attached. Primarily, much of the money loaned from the German state to the smaller states came with the proviso that the money would be spent on projects involving German corporations.
Anyone who has travelled through eastern Germany and examined the way public money source from the EU development programs was spent will tell you that German and French companies were the main receipients of the development contracts. The governments of the eastern european states were happy to go along with this requirement of receiving the money, because the investment created jobs in their neighbourhood and massive fees for the law firms and brokering houses owned by the family members of local politicians. For every million Euros spent through the EU in the baltic states, probably 200 thousand went to law firms owned by local politicians family members, and the rest went to German and french companies building the development projects. Of that 800 thousand, perhaps 50 thousand went to local labour hired to take part. And the debt which piled up was nobodies concern. The eastern European politicians were all former communists, now dressed up as budding capitalist in the free west, and so their conception of honour in public finance was hazy at best.
And as for the EU, well the folks at the EU simply didn't care. They told themselves the self serving economic dogma which theorizes that foreign investment is a good thing because it creates "growth" and prosperity. What they failed to admit, or perhaps understand, was that the economic doctrine which says foreign investment creates growth is based upon PRIVATE foreign investment. In the case of the EU development loans, it wasn't private money being ploughed into the needy economy of eastern Europe. It was public debt. The mantra of the EU was that of free market capitalism, but the mechanism to make the investment was good old fashioned socialist state spending.
And the german government is also complicit in the exploitation of other member states public debts. After all, as german investors and german industrial corporations made huge profits, did not the german state reap large windfalls in corporate taxation revenue?
Make no mistake, everyone in the german corridors of power was raising a toast to the glory of the EU when it was creating profits and tax revenue.
So let us not simplify this debate into the good country and the bad countries, where those who made money are the good guys and those who piled up the debt were the bad guys. That is to completely misunderstand how the EU has operated, and from whom the money for development has come.
In a way, I expect the Americans here will be interested in this story because right now they are facing a similar lie in their own country. The lie is that the state can borrow its way out of debt. By borrowing and spending more and more, so the lie goes, the state can act as an "investor" and thus grow the economy.
It is farcical, and ignores the reality that nobody ever washes a rental car. And yet all over the world, governments are preaching the same story.
In the current UK elections, socialists are preaching about the dangers of "taking money out of the economy" if government spending is cut. Wait until the good times to cut government spending, they cry. If you cut government spending now, the economy will suffer more.
But that worldview misses the point that government spending is government borrowing, and that government borrowing accumulates debt and interest repayments that steal from the private sector of tomorrow in order to pay socialist party members today.
And that has very largely been the story of the EU, and of Germany's participation. Germany helped create the vast debt in the other states, and did so telling itself that all the money it was making from the accumulation of that debt was "private profits from the free market". For germany now to blame the other member states for recklessness in public spending is treacherous and ultimately ridiculous. After all, their own economic "powerhouse" is a thing of fabrication and lies, built as it is upon the expectation of infinite borrowing by other member states.
Germany thought it had invented a way of turning lead into gold with the Euro. It thought it could create an economic union where other states held the debt and it made the private profits from the free market. Nobody realized that when the party ended, as it is beginning to end now, Germany's profits and economic power would end just as swiftly as the debtors ability to repay their loans. And so Germany must cannibalize itself, and take from its own workers to pay its own investors, because the member states cannot pay.
And why can't they pay?
Well, I have walked through the various EU projects in the baltic states, and I have seen how the EU money was spent. I recommend others do the same, if they are seriously curious to understand why Europe is collapsing economically.
Basic economic theory says that if you borrow money and use it to build productive and innovative "things" that increase output and efficiency, then you can make more profits from your industry and thus repay your debt, your interest on that debt AND have some more left over besides.
OK? OK.
But when the Germans and the French and others lent money to the poorer members, they specifically made conditions that they would not do this. They would only lend money for projects which DID NOT allow the poorer states to increase profits by becoming more efficient and more innovative and more productive.
Why? Well, because if they had done so they would have been cutting their own throats. If Germany had made the baltic states highly advanced economies, who would have suffered lost market share? German industry, of course. So the EU made sure, by way of German management of project funding, that only those developments which did not result in profits went ahead.
Now it wasn't a massive conspiracy, and the people involved did not meet together with the express intention of ruining eastern Europe. Not at all. It all just kind of happened, one thing after another.
The money which was supplied by german governments came from german taxpayers, and so it was reasonable that german officials oversaw the spending of it. And it was in their interests not to disadvantage their own economy. So they favoured new building schools, hospitals and government administrative buildings, and were not keen on revitalizing ports, farms and steel mills, nor financing robotic production facilities.
In the baltic states I have seen German companies building new government buildings right next to old government buildings which appear perfectly sound. I have seen french companies building libraries and swimming pools in the same towns. And yet in the fields not three miles distant, cultivated fields and farm buildings are become wastelands, infested with weeds and the unused industrial building falling down through lack of use and lack of maintenance.
The EU money was being spent, but upon anything except what was needed to make more profits in order to pay the interests on the loans.
The EU has been, in my view, a gigantic socialist experiment with idiotic finance. It has been the ultimate "borrow your way out of debt" exercise, a federal spending program where the larger states have been predators upon the smaller states.
And so it comes as no surprise to me that the Germans do not want to pay for the cost of debts of the smaller states whom they so enthusiastically encouraged into debt. they didn't want to share the advantages of profitable industrial investments with their "ever closure friends". Why would anyone expect them to share the losses?
But share the losses they will, because they have set themselves up as part of a massive soviet style economy, where profits come from the taxation of the state, and the taxation revenue of the state has been eaten away by debt that made the profits possible in the first place.
It is a predatory and exploitive system of centralized rule, where money is spent on grand schemes and only those in privileged positions are entitled the freedom to contract.
Old habits die hard on the continent, it seems.
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As I see it, there are three ways this can be resolved: 1) Greece gives Germany some collateral for the loan (islands) 2) Greece leaves the Eurozone 3) Germany leaves the Eurozone.
Option #3 would be a disaster, and probably lead the end of the Euro as a viable currency. Option #2 is a possibility, but it would make Greece the laughingstock of the world, and from what I know of Greece, they are more proud than practical, so option is not likely. Which leaves us with option #1, which may have been suggested in jest at times in the past but seems more and more practical as time goes on. Certainly, there would be investment in said islands and that Greeks in the construction industry would benefit, as would the functionaries in running the resorts which would be build. Of course, Germany would let some Turks work as well, which would annoy the Greeks, but hey, that's the price you pay, Greece!
German-owned resorts and administered territory in the mediterranean would make Germans feel more at home, more likely to go on vacations, and might improve their demeanor to drink all that life has to offer. I think this would be good for them. It would also be good for Greece.
But, once Germany and German companies had invested so much into Greek islands, under what conditions could and should they return them to Greece? That could be another, more tricky problem. Perhaps they should resort to a join admistration of Greek/German governments after Greece has paid its debt. In exchange for partial control over the islands in perpetuity, Germany charges no interest on the loan (but principal payments have to be made on time, otherwise the islands would remain solely in German control for years).
Some Greeks may try to invoke the WW2 history in order to play off of German guilt. That's not a good idea. Germans have had enough whining about their debt, and are ready to tell those who would leach off of them to go take a short walk off a long pier. Certainly, buying property is much better than a military takeover.
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DemocracyThreat, Thank you for your long comment to this article. I don't know that all of your claims are true, as I haven't seen the development of the 'new Europe' up close and personal. But if what you say is true, your conclusions seem to be rational. Certainly, I have seen the result of government spending in eastern Germany, where the amount of money spent on infrastructure improvements and tax breaks given for investment in this former communist country have cost the western part of Germany a lot of money. Yet the result seems to be less than impressive job growth in this area. A generation of Germans has grown up on the dole, with money being given by the government because there's practically no hope of finding a decent job. Sure, there are special economic development programs that provide jobs for a period of time, concomitant to government subsidy, but left to "fly on their own", these business ventures most often fail. Part of the reason is the very high German taxes, which are needed to prop up this giant socialist mechanism. It's hard to see how the reunification of Germany was done with much thought being given to the actual economic processes which would have to happen in order for any of the old organisations (socialized companies, now up for sale) could hope to compete against West German companies when their physical plant was in ruins, their workers uncompetitive, etc. They needed to continue a separate monetary system, where East Marks would trade at a discount to West Marks. But doing so would get in the way of West Germany's plan for European monetary union. They had to support their weak brother, so to speak, in order to get their stronger "friends" agree to a pool of all their money. So, East Germany got kind of screwed. Now, given that there are far worse situations to be in than that of the perpetualy unemployed east German citizen, but it does no good for the economy as a whole and is destructive upon the psyche of those living on the public's money. It's funny, Germany kind of reminds me of New York State, with the areas around New York City supporting the worn-out industrial cities of the north and west. Each might be better off without the other, but their fates have been so intermingled that there is no real hope of separating them, short of complete economic collapse.
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It's amusing to watch this. Just a few years ago, the EU was supposed to be challenging the US's leadership role.
Now they're practically collapsing over the simplest problems.
Pay up or sit down Deutschland, it's the price of leadership.
If all else fails, you can hand it over to Macedonia. They know how to motivate the Greeks.
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I feel for the Germans. European countries (or other states for that matter) can't just wheel out the WWII card every time they want Germany to pay for a project or bail them out.
Germany has paid for the European Project, Reunification, Reparations and has sincerely owned up to its past. I think they also have the right to express their views about current issues and problems without the past being dragged up.
Keep the free trade zone and scrap the Federal Europe project.
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Sorry guys, it's never going to work. The E.U. will fail because the countries never started out on a level playing field. The idea of the Greeks giving islands to the Germans (who could not keep them after trying to conquer them) but now ends up owning them because the Greeks can't pay back the money they were loan sharked by the Germans? That's the stupidest thing I have heard. Germany will probably leave the E.U. or set up a secondary currency within it's borders or whatever suits it purpose. You cannot have a common currency with countries that have different sovereign interests. I can't believe that no one has blamed this on the U.S. or A., except the paranoid comment about U.S. hegemony, which is really just an expression of lack of respect for your own country and a warped world view. America is not 50 different countries, the E.U. could and never will compete with the dollar, the Yen, the Yuan or any other number of currencies, because the E.U. leadership lacks the ability to make any decisions. Watch the Dominoes fall. After all, if the leadership members makes a decision not in the bests interest of said members countries, then that representative would have h*ll to pay, not that any member would make a decision contrary to their countries needs, that would be stupid. It isn't like the E.U. could even protect itself from any kind of attack, the E.U. is just a money arrangement, with no teeth. The whole arrangement seems "Greek" to me. Just a hegemonic American view.
P.S., British Petroleum (BP), start digging deep into your pockets for that oil spill your going to have to pay for. At least you guys were smart enough to keep the British Pound.
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marcus wrote:
"Every move is fatal. Whichever way Germany turns to avoid one calamity sends it right into the arms of another. There is no way out. "
What if Germany chooses to leave the Euro?
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
16@
“Cyprus is a different country from Greece.”
Is that why Greeks wealthy moved billions to Cyprus banks last few months to avoid paying taxes?
Is that why Greeks in Greece and Greeks in Cyprus will share 12 points at coming Eurovision song contest?
Not only Greece cooked their books to join the Euro Zone, but they are also managed to bribe their way to get Cyprus accepted in to EU not for economic reason but political reason also.
Aren’t you shame? Maybe not.
Europeans should have known, “Beware of gift baring Greeks”
I hope not Greece but Germany leaves EURO, and leave crooks to sink.
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While asking Germany for a bailout, Greek wealthy move billions out of Greece to avoid paying tax.
http://www.financialmirror.com/News/Cyprus_and_World_News/19984
‘
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704188104575083430544125398.html
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"Sorry guys, it's never going to work. The E.U. will fail because the countries never started out on a level playing field. The idea of the Greeks giving islands to the Germans (who could not keep them after trying to conquer them) but now ends up owning them because the Greeks can't pay back the money they were loan sharked by the Germans? That's the stupidest thing I have heard."
The above is not the stupidest thing I have ever read, because I read this kind of nonsense all the time these days. This Greek self-delusion of victimhood. Germans did not "loan shark" Greeks. What they did do was transfer billions of Deutschmarks and Euros to Greece no strings attached to Greece for 30 years via its E.U. surplus. If anyone "loan sharked" the Greeks it was a couple of banks (for "loan shark" read "demand reasonable interest for loans"), and Greece squandered both the loans and the European freebies. Now they are coming to scrounge again and trying to guilt-trip Germany into bailing them out or else.
What one German politician and a German tabloid newspaper was to humbly suggest the Greeks sell some of their islands. Germans certaily do not have any interest in those islands, but perhaps the Turks would be interested or the Albanians? The fact of the matter is that any bankrupt party is obliged to sell off everything they have to service their debts. That's the way the world works. Of course the Greeks are not going to do that, they will sooner default and thus effectively leave the E.U. and the Eurozone. But the decadent peoples of Europe could at least do the non-decadent ones one small favour: stop playing the victim and stop scrounging when you default.
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MarcusAureliusII, I was not going to answer your inane posts anymore, but your last one was too hilarious to let pass by without comment.
"Does that include the skinheads who beat Turks, Roma, Jews, and anyone else they don't like in Germany? What about the German police who turn their heads the other way and ignore it when those crimes are reported to the point where they aren't usually even reported anymore. "
That is a nice unfalsifiable claim if I have ever seen one - "it happens so often that the media do not write or talk about it anymore". In other words: I'll just make this unfalsifiable claim, and I will not provide any evidence, because there is any, so I'll just claim that it happens so often that there is no evidence.
Well, MarcusAurelius, two can play that game: "Americans have lynched so many millions of black people and burnt so many crosses last year that journalists have not bothered to write about it." Proof? What proof do I need? The fact that no journalist wrote about it is proof enough.
I do not agree at all with quietoaktree's chauvinistic comment. But you make his posts look reasoned and logical.
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Bloggers:
A majority of Germans have at least some understanding for the help to Greece. 53% of the Germans are in favour of credits to Greece, IF the banks in Germany, which already have made business with Greece and money on the interest rate circus, take part. This can be read in an article by the master of numbers at ARD, Jörg Schönenborn.
Further 23% of the Germans are in favour in help also without the participation of the banks, while 21% are against any kind of credit.
Clearly, the Germans remain in favour of the European project, but regret to be involved in the Greek problem. 45% of the Germans would like to see Greece expelled from the Euro zone.
I suppose it is clear to most people here that such investigations are part of the representative democracy. Chancellor Merkel as well as the fractions of Bundestag know these figures, and that they have a mandate to assist. It goes without saying that they also know about the annoyance in a population of savers.
Let me illustrate the latter with this observation: If you go to a larger supermarket here in Germany, - a place where you are supposed to buy something - you hear voices in the loudspeaker system that talks about saving. In fact you hear the inner voice of most Germans.
The contrast to Greeks is striking.
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@Chris Camp
Chris, you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what the German people think. You also seem to have a quite outdated mindset. WWI and WWII were over a long time ago.
The idea of one country having the obligation to bail out another that has been mismanaged and run into the ground is absurd. I wouldn't demand your cash if I lost all mine. Of course, if German taxpayers want to give to aid the Greeks then they certainly can, with my praise.
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#48 and #49
Interesting how Marcus 1 and Marcus 2 posted only 8 minutes apart...hmmm.
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@ Mike, is it possible that have you mistaken what someone else wrote for one of my posts? I just do not recognise at all what you think I said.
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This has nothing to do with helping Greece. The German banks are in trouble if Greece defaults on its debts? Who do you think loaned them the money? If German banks are in trouble, then Germans will have to pay a lot more than the bail-out of Greece will cost (assuming national policy is still to transfer citizens' money to banks in trouble).
Of course Angela Merkel can't say any of this - the financial world is built on air, more or less, and confidence is the name of the game.
If Greece is allowed to fail, then the speculators will turn their attentions to Portugal and Spain, then Ireland and Italy. Each domino that falls places more weight on the bigger dominoes at the end of the line: Britain, France and Germany.
This was never about the EU project - it was always about national self-interest.
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Solidarity with any member of the European Union that is in need: YES.
Conditions to be observed by members: also YES.
If the Greek public wants to refuse austerity measures, they should have elected a better government.
And don't blame it on the euro: the individual Briton also has overspent.
Tough, highly unpopular measures will be needed, but will the people vote for the guy with the austerity measures in the next UK election? Probably not.
Inside the UK there are also poorer regions that need help from richer ones, places where it is much easier to make money than others (Google for "poor regions UK" and see).
Mutual support (from Germany, the UK, France, ...) inside a mutually agreed and OBSERVED (by Greece, Portugal, ...) legal framework is a good idea, and it is what the "United" in "UK" stands for.
But such help should be the exception: those who need it should ensure it does not happen all the time.
So be careful who you are going to vote for!
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If I had lied on my application to join an exclusive club, I would have been shown the door and quicker if I had my hand out.
If the European Union wanted to demonstrate how united they really are, they should vote overwhelmingly to either suspend or boot Greece.
It is not going to do the Euro any good to print more Euros and throw them down a well.
I sure as heck wouldn't trust anyone in the Greek government "guaranteeing" repayment.
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There is a much better solution than ejecting Greece from Eurozone and perhaps also - EU.
That is Germany leaving Eurozone and returning to its beloved D-Mark.
And if euro collapses as a result and Germans are blamed for it they should leave EUSSR altogether. And be better for it.
P.S. Here's wondering when Gavin turns his attention to Portugal.
And Spain, which is not far behind.
For Greece is merely a tip of this financial pyramide.
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Re Cyprus...
Cyprus (or more correctly not much than half of that speck of an island) has no business being in EU and should not have been admitted to it the first place.
It's not in Europe, although next to Syria.
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Germany will be giving Greece more money than it spends on education.
That is getting up a lot of peoples noses here.
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Excellent post from Gavin.
Whilst many comments appear to be emotive and fuelled by issues relating to national identity, two points are unequivocal:
1. Regardless of membership in the EU, ALL countries aim to serve their own interests. National interests have always superceded those of any broader collective and it should come as no surprise that this continues to be the case (for both Greece and Germany).
2. Greece alone is responsible for the decision to enter the EU/single currency and their government for the subsequent deceit, levels of government debt and current economic crisis.
Whether or not the Greek population have been let down by self-serving governments, talk of default merely re-inforces perceptions of fiscal irresponsibility and indicates that no lessons have been learned.
Greece and its people must take ownership of their current position and no-one else - its called democracy!
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Vassillas and Nik,
Dont let this get you down...your life experiences are much more important than a tourist blog ...visiting crises and judging them ...hmmmph, moving on "nothing to see here" (police phrase in U.S.)
Perhaps ..there are ways of Greece surviving....OUZO and a beautiful Vista of one of your GREAT islands...dont judge, just turn your head and realities will resume
I can't believe what the ordinary Greek worker must be thinking at this hugely OVERDONE moment...
I'll think of them before judging:)
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Im a USA'an who will care:)
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66. At 05:48am on 30 Apr 2010, RebelJim wrote:
16@
“Cyprus is a different country from Greece.”
Is that why Greeks wealthy moved billions to Cyprus banks last few months to avoid paying taxes?
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No, its because Cyprus is a tax heaven and Greece is nearby. A lot of people from the USA put their billions in Switzerland, does this make Switzerland part of the USA? Greek Cypriots may be ethnically the same but it is a different sovereign nation. I am not sure what is so hard for you to understand....
Is that why Greeks in Greece and Greeks in Cyprus will share 12 points at coming Eurovision song contest?
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Eurovision? Really? How old are you, 12? Well the Scandic coutries give each other points, the Spanish give Portugal points and vice versa, the Baltics do the same, eastern bloc does the same. Yes people love their neighbours, especially the ones with who they share common history, language and culture. Your point being?
Not only Greece cooked their books to join the Euro Zone, but they are also managed to bribe their way to get Cyprus accepted in to EU not for economic reason but political reason also.
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Actually Cyprus had no problems joining the EU on its own. For its size it is a rich country, richer than many existing EU countries. And Greece was also accepted for political reasons and back then the rest of the EU that is now screaming had no problem turning a blind eye.
Aren’t you shame? Maybe not.
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About what? The Eurovision or because Cyprus is a tax haven?
Europeans should have known, “Beware of gift baring Greeks”
I hope not Greece but Germany leaves EURO, and leave crooks to sink.
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I don't really care what Germany decides to do, its up to them, not me. Compared to other people, I don't really enjoy mendeling with other countries affairs. They can do as they wish...
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Why don't the Germans just buy Greece? To most Germans it's just a sort of Hellenic holiday park anyway, and one that could do with better management. If they're going to foot the bills, it seems only right that they should also own the deeds.
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The good news is that yesterday I found an old German (mostly silver) 5 D-Mark coin at the back of a drawer.
The bad news is that my bank suggested that I invest in Greek Bonds !
The telephone still glows in the dark, but they obviously believe Germany will cough-up at least THIS time.
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One must remember a number of facts here. Greece's economy was destroyed in the WWII as we know. Greece received very little from the invader in compensation after the war compared to the damage done.
Greece's economy was basically taken over by the EU after it's joining the club. Greek salaries have remained 1/3 of German salaries from the onset which is also due to the acceptance of Globalization. The cost of living in Greece is one of the highest in Europe and only the "family" structure of this small and poor nation has allowed the vast majority of Greeks to survive.
Ministers have been bought and paid for throughout Europe including Germany as we all know. A large scandal involving the German mega company Siemens is now in the courts in Greece involving huge payoffs by that company to Greek officials.
The limitations of the Greek economy have been known from the beginning by all the big EU nations and nothing, nothing was said or done because corrupt companies like Siemens had to be allowed to do their dirty work so that their companies could become even more powerful, as in the US, France, the UK etc.
To be playing the victim now is nonsense. To bail out the banks is also nonsense. The breakup of these monopolies and the large banks would be the beginning of solving the problem from its source which will not and is not being taken into consideration.
These loans will only exacerbate the situation albeit delaying the horrible outcome. Greeks will not be able to survive after the measures being demanded by Germany are put in place so what is the purpose? Who, in the end is to gain by subjecting working people to abject poverty and leaving the big capital alone? The answer is obvious.
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"majority of Germans have at least some understanding for the help to Greece. 53% of the Germans are in favour of credits to Greece"
According to the most recent poll 65% of Germans wehemently oppose any bail-out of Greece.
So how come remaining 35% suddenly grew to 53% when I was asleep?
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I live in germany since 1989 and will add my tuppence to this debate.
1.A lot of germans are very angry about the CDU/FDP.
On the one hand they want to give a big tax cut to the rich,cut social security for the poor,bailed out the banks with 500 BILLION euros(Hypo Real Estate with 100 BILLION on its own who will lose another 8 billion if Greece defaults!) and now havw to loan 25 billion to the greeks!
2. There are elections in Northrhein Westfalia on the 9th of May-Merkel still hasn´t told the electrate how she will finace the tax cuts/reduce the deficit in fear for a backlash.More importantly in the Upper House(Bundesrat) if she loses this election her tax cut won´t happen and the FDP are pushing hard for this.
A lot of poorer germans fear this govt. because they will have to pay for all this while Merkel still refuses bank regulation and making the banks/rich pay their proper share for this crisis!
3.Over 90% of the germans hate the Euro-It has cuased massive inflation at the beginning(famous DM removed and € prices stayed the same in 2000)
The DM was worth something the € NOT.The wages didn´t double the prices sometimes did!
There will be no deal on greece till the 10th of May.
I personally think Greece will default because the Govt. will collapse soon because of mass protests and rioting...(which is understandable and maybe wanted who knows..?)
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Who cares . It is in own Germany sake take things smooth .They heve industry everyvere throughout Europe .They need white thight live .:-))))
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Re #74
"This was never about the EU project - it was always about national self-interest."
Granted. Because EU has never become anything but merely a project.
A vision of United Staes of Europe as a counterbalance to the United States of America was a bad joke from the start.
And so was, as anybody can see - the Euro Zone.
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I can't see why all the focus is on Germany anyway, surely any bail out should be paid for by all the eurozone countries whose own finances are in reasonable condition e.g. France & Benelux.
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What this article and most news publications completely overlook is the following:
Germany has everything the way it wants in the EU. I mean - EVERYTHING. Why do you think this is? Germany is the only reason why EU exists to start with. If there were no Germany, EU would make no sense, neither historically nor economically.
Now, if Germans want everything to be run the way they want, they also need to pay for this. Who else should pay, Estonia, Slovenia or Malta? If they do not want to pay, then they won't have the influence they currently have. And Angela would do anything not to lose this power, but she can't openly say that to the German public. And German public is as ignorant as any other public and naively think that if they wave red flags on the 1st of May, they'll achieve justice and protect their hard earned euros. Much more is at stake, and Angela knows it.
And the Greek - they are just getting what they deserve. Actually, they deserve even worse. Go, strike and protest and ruin your ruined country even more. We do not care. And this is not Schadenfreude. This is justice.
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Interestedforeigner has asked series of questions under the rubric of
"... what is Greece proposing to do to meet Germany's concerns?"....
which need responding to.
Here is a line by line attempt to do so, based on the reported outcome of the discussions between the IMF/EU/ECB team and the Greeks as of this morning:
Are the Greeks going to raise their retirement age to match Germany?
YES
Are they going to raise taxes to cover the shortfall in revenues?
YES
Are they going to put in tougher rules for their civil service?
Yes
Are they going to cut the size of the civil service?
YES
Are the Greeks going to provide transparent accounts?
YES....(monitored by in situ rep from EU/Eurosat in Athens)
Have the Greeks agreed to give the German finance minister a line-item veto over Greek budget expenditures?
NO. (Veto given over - subject to conditions - to EU)
Have the Greeks agreed, in effect, to the appointment of a Receiver?
Yes (see above answer for clarification)
Are the Greeks going to accede to an outside independent audit of their accounts?
YES(to the appropriate EU body)
Are the people responsible going to be fired?
Too vague to answer. Responsible for what exactly? And is the list restricted to Greeks alone, or can persons from other EU states be included?
Are the people responsible going to jail?
Too vague to answer.Ditto as above
Have the Greeks agreed to stop blocking the entry of Northern Cyprus into the EU?
No. (Irrelevant question)
Have the Greeks agreed to stop opposing the entry of Turkey into the EU?
Misinformed question. (Germany and France oppose Turkish entry. Greeks support it).
Have the other nations in the EU agreed to scrap the Common Agricultural Policy, or to cut its budget by at least 80%?
Yes,by 2013 (albeit grudgingly....especially Germany which has for decades been beholden to Bavarian farming lobbies)
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In the UK most workers are paid monthly.
Others are still paid weekly.
Some are paid 4 weekly.
We are told many Greeks are paid 14 times annually.
So what? It is the annual wage that matters.
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They wanted a big happy EU family. Someone in the family is a bit sick, time to face the music.
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Re61: Macedonia is the region I come from. It is a coastal region around the corner of the Aegean. There is no other Macedonia. Thhe name was falsely used first actually by Serbians in 1870s to:
1) mainly de-Bulgarise the Bulgarian people around Skopje (non-Greek lands, nothing to do with Macedonia in the south).
2) try and make a link with the Greek lands in the south, thus access to the sea!
But quickly it was taken from Bulgarians in the 1880s to:
1) mark that in the region of Skopje renamed falsely Macedonia live Bulgarians
2) ... and as such, the real Macedonia should be Bulgarian too
It is evident that both Serbian and Bulgarian writers that participated themselves in these propagandas had clearly stated on the sides that "There is no such thing as Macedonian nationality, it is just a perversion of reality!".
Today both Serbians and Bulgarians openly recognise that it was part of the politics of the time and that the name "Macedonia" is a Greek name of a Greek region that lies inside Greece and has nothing to do with FYROM which uses the name only after Tito's 1945 propaganda who actually:
1) blended serbian and bulgarian opposing "macedonianisms" into 1, i.e. creating the notion of an as-if existing macedonian nation by serbising as much as possible the Bulgarian populations of FYROM and bulgarising as possible the Serbian ones (anyway the dialects of the region were degradations of each language, i.e. as you moved from Bulgaria diagonally to Serbia Bulgarian language smoothly transformed into Serbian).
2) Use the name to demand directly the annexation of the real region of Macedonia, i.e. all north Greece (pretty much the 1/4-1/3 of Greece!!!!).
As first president of FYROM, Kiro Gligorov had said: "We have nothing to do with Macedonians, we are descendants of a slavic nation that came in the area in 6th century A.D.). Which is the reality of course. His view was repeated even by people belonging in nationalist circles of FYROM who simply wish however the name which is their only vehicle to claim Greek lands in the south.
Just like European powers of late 19th century loved these local propagandas and were very much behind them, US today love them equally and fund them as a means of pressure against Greece as well as Bulgarian (since FYROMians have territorial claims against Bulgaria too, let alone having butchered Bulgarian history to the same extend as the Greek one).
Now why did I emphasise on all that?
Cos it seems the Greek crisis has a destabilisation effect on FYROM too. First, FYROM despite its propaganda, has been heavily invested by Greek private people - in fact at times 50% of foreign investements came from Greece. Greece is interested in this country remaining stable. However now in the time of crisis, neighbouring Albanian Kosovar guerillas who became rendudant after the Yugoslav wars, are pressing to open a new conflict in FYROM and even down in Greece. Only this week FYROMian police and military attacked a stockhouse and found a huge quantity of stored arms of infiltrating Kosovar Albanians. If they found such a large quantity so easily, that means there is much more out there with Kosovars being dedicated to apply the rule of the jungle in the country. FYROMians alone cannot deal with Kosovars when Serbians couldn't. So they will ask the help of whom? Bulgaria? Or Greece? The countries from which FYROM demands lands? It goes withoutsaying that Greece would not wish to aid FYROM but given that Kosovars are a raiding group, if they achieve anything in FYROM, next target is to infiltrate the mountainous regions of Greece and start slaughtering the rural Greek populations. The only thing that keeps Kosovars at bay right now is US which controls both Kosovars and FYROMian Slavs. A funny situation where US plays FYROMians against Greeks and Bulgarians and within the state it plays Slavs against Albanians... an amazing destabilisation tool in the region.
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It's a race! Who will last longer?
The Greek Government or the Brown Government?
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To Comment 84: "Why don't the Germans just buy Greece? To most Germans it's just a sort of Hellenic holiday park anyway, and one that could do with better management."
Some of the Germans try to do exactly this: The council of the German state of Hessen, a coalition of CDU-FDP (conservatives and liberal-democrats) decided at the end of March to buy a tiny Greek island in the Mediterranean. The estimated price is a billion euro.
The island is to be used as an holiday resort. The SPD (social-democrats) are opposing the plan whilst even the green party is supporting it.
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Re86: Going back to our main issue (but every side issue like the above is main of course!)... Gregorio you get the picture mate:
"""To be playing the victim now is nonsense. To bail out the banks is also nonsense. The breakup of these monopolies and the large banks would be the beginning of solving the problem from its source which will not and is not being taken into consideration."""
People still do not realise that the core issue of the problem of Greece is down to the very foundations of the global economic construction and it is for this exact reason that countries of various sizes and characteristics meet the same fate. If we saw Greeks were corrupt and lived above their means in a de-industrialised country then were Irish and Portuguese too or are Spanish non-industrialised? And why Sweden of 6 million people in a large country of open spaces and ressources, with no external threat and with excellent neighbours going bad? How about little Iceland? Pointing at Greeks just because they are a noisy lot that likes fiestas and extravaganza makes us losing the bigger picture. In the first place one should ask (and I have asked on every single post of mine here), how on earth Greece was funded all these years when it had already reached the point of financial no-return by 1989!!!! How could it go on for another 20 years surfing on more loans given knowingly by bankers to fund Olympic fiestas and bridges in the middle of nowhere!!!
Germans have won billions on Greece which took loans whose large part went directly to Berlin. Indirectly even German citizens saw a bit of Greek money in their pockets via the employment to which the Greek command lists contributed.
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I don´t think that any bail out at all should take place becuase with Greece you can be sure only about one thing: if they get 45 bil now, they´ll need and want more in no time while not doing anything at all to try and cut the huge budget deficit. The´ll rather go striking. If someone was so naive to have bought Greek bonds, it´s their problem not that of other european countries taxpayers. Greece doesn´t belong to eurozone if it belongs to the EU at all. If Greece is bailed out it amounts to one huge theft of public money.
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Re94: The 13th and 14th wage in fact were a perversion so as to avoid giving the full monthly salary but only the 85% keeping the 15% of every month and giving it in December and April to boost the market. It was clear from the beginning that this measure was placed years back to be taken as needed and thus pass direct wage reductions as "cutting of extravagant gifts". Which is plain immoral. There are people who take net 600 euros per month thus from a 600x14 = 8400 euros net annual salary they will fall down to 7200, indeed a 15% reduction. Simply immoral.
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#13:
You and others keep stating that Greece are hardworking people and attacks on their work ethic and character are unfair. While this may be true for the individuals posting it doesn't address the issue posed. Greece is a democracy, if government officials and bureaucrats are to blame somehow the voting majority kept electing them. These financial problems have accumulated throughout several election cycles. So even if the stated "Greek" flaws may not be your own they still fairly assess the nation of Greece and its people.
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some people proposed nominating one bank to big to fail as a 'bad bank' to take all the debts and free up the others.....let's make greece the bad EU state then and correct the small free market anomolees once and for all
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100. At 10:31am on 30 Apr 2010, Winddom Earl wrote:
I don´t think that any bail out at all should take place becuase with Greece you can be sure only about one thing: if they get 45 bil now, they´ll need and want more in no time while not doing anything at all to try and cut the huge budget deficit. The´ll rather go striking. If someone was so naive to have bought Greek bonds, it´s their problem not that of other european countries taxpayers. Greece doesn´t belong to eurozone if it belongs to the EU at all. If Greece is bailed out it amounts to one huge theft of public money.
Are you just not reading all the above and the news regarding the draconinan steps that have been taken to reduce deficit? Why do people like you keep insisting that nothing is being done? Whether people strike or not it is irellevant to the actual implementation. The measures will be force-fed to us whether we like it or not.
And it is not the taxpayer paying for it per se, its Germany borrowing at 3% and passing that amount to Greece for 5%, making some profit as well in the process. I feel more guilty for countries like Portugal that will have to borrow at over 5% and give it to us for 5% just like everyone else.
Why after all these days and all the details of the plan people still stick to the same bigotry and misinformation being repeated over and over is beyond me.
I will agree with you that Greece might have been better off outside the EMU, we would have prefered the Chinese and Russians to build us the airports, metro and all infrastructure at better prices and maybe with planning that actualy best served Greece. But saying we should be out of the EU is based on nothing other than your bigotry and holier-than-thou attitude.
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102. At 10:38am on 30 Apr 2010, andreasr wrote:
#13:
You and others keep stating that Greece are hardworking people and attacks on their work ethic and character are unfair. While this may be true for the individuals posting it doesn't address the issue posed. Greece is a democracy, if government officials and bureaucrats are to blame somehow the voting majority kept electing them. These financial problems have accumulated throughout several election cycles. So even if the stated "Greek" flaws may not be your own they still fairly assess the nation of Greece and its people.
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Your idea of democracy is a bit twisted. Lets see what our other choices are. The Communist party, SYRIZA (in charge for all strikes you see now along with the Communist party) and LAOS (ultra-conservative right wing party). Unfortunately we have been voting for the lesser of all evils, there is as much choice regarding parties that can come close to governing as there is in the US (2 parties).
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Re 101:
600€ is roughly the welfare/long term unemployment/minimum pension in Germany. Low paying jobs may yield about 850€ in Germany. Don't know how do compare living costs but it sure is not all honey und chocolate in Germany either. But what can you do if the state simply runs out of money.
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Within this entire debate over the whole thing, I just keep thinking to myself: aren't Germany just playing by the rules here?
The only reason that Germany decided to join the Euro was because of the fact that there was a "no-bailout" policy when the currency was introduced, which guaranteed that they wouldn't have to dip into their own pockets to help out struggling nations.
Then, when a nation manages to pull the proverbial wool over the eyes of Eurozone countries until the EU finds out and decides to bury their heads in the sand, there's a sudden need for a bail-out, with Germany being expected to pay for the vast majority of it? For some reason, I don't really see the fairness in that. There are rules set in place, Germany abides by them, but then the rest of the Eurozone decides, "Well, actually, we don't like those rules so much anymore...".
It's terrible, because essentially the Germans have been hoodwinked into doing something they were guaranteed they wouldn't have to do. It's completely unfair, I think.
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Gavin's article is excellent and to the point . Some of the first posts too hit the nail on the head .
As comments progressed there is a lot of hot air , pointless discussion , argument as to the rights and wrongs of either Greece or Germany . recrimination after the event is not going to change the situation or put things right .
I believe one of the original reasons for dreaming up the Union after the second world war ; was to bind those central west European countries together , so that Germany could not overeach herself and again think to take over and rule the whole of Europe . Germany suffered terribly in two world wars and was happy to comply with such a good idea . The original plan for six countries to combine might have worked , if carried out in the 1950s when everyone remembered the horrors of a recent war . That didn't happen the plan has expanded to an unworkable project . Few Germans today remember the war years and for the majority it is just past history . The Germans are successful in industry and in banking and business . They themselves seem happy to be held within the confines of the EU , but really no other member states are a match for them , not even France .
Greece was not alone in cooking the books to enter the single currency , Italy too and I dare say Spain and Portugal . Romano Prodi was President of the Commission at the time and could not have failed to know Italy's insolvency , Greeces and any other .
One now notices the silence from the EU Commission and all the Eurozone states apart from Germany .
I do not think that Greece should be bailed out , given a massive loan , whatever you call it . Germany should not be looked to for such a large sum , Italy , Spain , Portugal and Ireland are likely to be bankrupted too . I suspect the money loaned would never be seen again . I believe it is in Greeces best interests to default , leave the Euro , return to the Drachma , leave the EU and manage her own affairs in the way she knows best . All the stringent measurest pressed on Greece will not work , many able people will leave the country , many people will be unemployed , people will rebel and strike as they are now , it simply won't work . Greeks left to themselves will pull together and get themselves out of the trouble they are in .
Whichever way you look at it , will not reflect well on the Euro or the EU . It is time to end the grand Charade , make the most of our nation states and put behind us the Euro and the EU two major project that failed .
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Reading analyses like this I am inclined to think that the bail-out is plainly a very bad idea and that somehow, cunning Greeks, who have trouble influencing the weakest of their nano-state neighbours, have found a way to rob Germans of their so hard-earned euros. The French, it would appear, love the idea of shoving money down Greek throats, the US president appeals to Germany to act, smaller also indebted countries are ready to chip in, and the ones who got it right are populist German media and an ever narrower slice of the British media, which would rather laugh at the Greeks rather than weep for the state of British finances.
I honestly, truly and passionately agree that the bail-out is a bad idea. However, please, please do not undermine your own intelligence by supporting that this is bad because it is unfair to the German tax-payer.
In Britain euro-scepticism has been based on the notion that the European project is a silly and pointless emotional enterprise spurred by the post-war flower-loving hippie culture that spread in Europe. You stayed on the sidelines as Germany grew to be the world's biggest exporter and an unstoppable economic power. Meanwhile you were losing jobs to practically everyone and the only industry you were left with was, well derivatives...Germany has been filling its coffers with money because it is locked in the Eurozone along with spendthrift countries, just like Greece. And when countries like Greece had second thoughts about spending, companies like Siemens, Daimler, Ferrostaal and the like would grease money out them, with kick-backs, which appear now to be one of Germany's greatest exporting tools.
Do your best to stop this bail-out. Write masterpieces of economic analysis and political polemics. You will be doing miserable Greeks a huge favour. But showing sympathy to the German tax-payer, coming from Britain? Next thing, we will be reading here sad stories of sympathy to the poor French farmers losing income to Greek subsidies. Britain and British media and intelligentsia never tried to hide their loyalties or bias; so just stick to that and don't be over-sympathetic to "poor" discriminated-against Germany.
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"One must remember a number of facts here. Greece's economy was destroyed in the WWII as we know. Greece received very little from the invader in compensation after the war compared to the damage done."
Oh come on! Please! I'm begging you! I want to play the world's smallest violin for you! I have been reading this lame excuse over and over in the last few weeks and it still does not hold up to any reasonable assessment.
Greece has been in the E.U. for 30 years. During those thirty years, the average standard of living has been higher than ever before. Greece received billions upon billions from the E.U. via the E.U. surplus, the main contributor to which is Germany. If Greece had not squandered E.U. funds the way it did it would be more prosperous now than it was at any point before World War 2.
"Ministers have been bought and paid for throughout Europe including Germany as we all know."
"As we all know" - speak for yourself. Of course, there are corruption cases in every country around the world from time to time, but I cannot see how ministers having been bought has got anything to do with the Greek bankruptcy. How would you go about backing up your fantastic claim?
"Greeks will not be able to survive after the measures being demanded by Germany are put in place"
Now I need an even smaller violin. The Germans have lived through the great depression and hyper-inflation of the 1920s. The Tutsi have survived the the onslaught of the Hutu. The Poles have survived the onslaught of the Germans and the Russians several times over. The Africans have survived colonisation and slavery. The Chinese have survived the opium crisis. Jews have been persecuted and murdered for centuries and they are still around.
What Greece is going through is laughable when compared to what other nations have been through. All Greece has to do is reduce its public service sector, put measures in place to reduce tax evasion, raise its VAT for a few years and start building up industries that do not rely entirely on tourism. In a few years, it will be fine.
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I think Greek government will last longer than British government.
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So what did you say is the date of a referendum on UK's membership in EUSSR?
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#86 Gregorio
What economy was destroyed ?
It was an olive and lemon economy until the tourists began turning up in the 60´s.
Ok, Onassis owned ships and bought the national airline, but the best about EU entry was the olive and lemon subsidies and all the other infrastructure EU projects that attempted to bring the average Greek a higher living standard.
Do you know how many donkeys were still being used in the 70´s ?
( I am not insulting donkeys! )
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Having worked with highest-level Greek politicians, they clearly regard the EU as an ever-lasting milch-cow. My involvement was with the Erasmus programme, which involves EU members outside Eurozone as well as in, which enabled one professor to buy the land and build a beautiful villa over about 6-7 years, allegedly supported by a politician in the education ministry who is now about as high as one can go in Greece...
It is true that the Greek working class are just as good or bad as most European workers, but the rich classes begrudge paying taxes as they believe that those same taxes will end up in personal pockets, and who is to nay say them? ...
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It is disgraceful that the Greeks won't take responsibility for their actions. They have voted for Governments which have spent more than the country earns and their deficit is entirely their own fault. I'd be furious if I was German and was blamed. Why should German tax payers have to subsidise Greek recklessness? Greeks should have the courage to be honest and face up to their responsibilities.
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Why is Madedonia called Former Yugoslav Republic of Madedonia?
And a small island off Syria's coast is a EU member?
Why? Ask the Greeks.
P.S. Kemal Pasha (Ataturk) has been born in Saloniki. So he was Greek. :)
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dt;
"And that mechanism, the EU programs for "assistance and development loans", came with numerous strings attached. Primarily, much of the money loaned from the German state to the smaller states came with the proviso that the money would be spent on projects involving German corporations."
This is what my comments about whom the Germans were exporting to I posted on other threads was about. If the EU wants to be considered as one political/economic bloc, then exports from Germany to other EU countries doesn't count. Not the way exports from say the US to Canada and Mexico do. Take those exports out of the data and Germany is no big deal and what exports to foreign countries that matter does exist was in part the result of bribes, not competition. How could it be? The Germany corporations have to subsidize Germany's lavish social safety net. Just one more fraudulent statistical slight of hand Europe uses to puff itself up. When all of the hot air finally escapes from it after it implodes, it will be flat as a pancake, about two inches high.
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There is a great deal of talk that a Greek default would be catastrophic for the Euro. Would someone please explain simply how so?
In the USA, towns and cities go bankrupt and default. They find it difficult to borrow again - for a while - but it does not affect the US$.
I can see the banks would lose money; they would be reluctant to lend to the Greece government - for a while - but not necessarily to Greek companies and they would continue lending to other Eurozone countries and companies.
If as a result the Euro lost some value would that not be good for European competivity? But would it? What is the historical pecedent?
It seems to me that the claim that a default is bad for the Euro is a fiction to save Greek pride and bank profits.
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Who cares . It is in own Germany sake take things smooth .They have industry everyvere throughout Europe .They need white thight live .:-))))
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Gavin Hewitt wrote:
So the Germans are unhappy. Some 65% of them, according to the latest polls, oppose a bail-out. It is not that suddenly they have become anti-European. It's just that as Tom Buhrow says, "we'll just not share the pin code of our ATM with you".
But surely the point is that unless they share the pin code now, the next time they visit the ATM there is a very real risk of being greeted by a great big 'KAPUT' sign. In other words, if they don't come to Greece's aid now they are jeopardising the whole of the European banking system and putting German banks themselves, with their huge holdings of Greek, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian debt, at risk.
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What we see in action is the typical EU modus operandi. The pro-EU crowd once again bullying whichever country dares to disagree with them or doesn't seem as enthusiastic to sign up to some policy (in this case: bailout) as they are. The pro-EU crowd always tries to make said country feel isolated as if everyone else agrees with them and that one country does not.
I certainly understand what Merkel is doing. Germany has seen some drastic welfare/benefits cuts over the last few years, and Germany once signed up for the Euro currency under the 'fiscal discipline and no bail-outs' condition. Once again, the EU wants to violate its own rules.
I've been following the news and apparently there is going to be a legal challenge to the bail-out proposal which some including myself regard as illegal under the EU's own rules.
Four German professors (Wilhelm Hankel, Wilhelm Nolling, Karl Albrecht Schachtschneider and Joachim Starbatty) are working on a legal challenge on the grounds that a bilateral transfer to Greece would breach the EU's own 'no bail-outs' clause. The four unsuccessfully fought an anti-euro lawsuit at the German constitutional court in 1998, but are confident they will win this time. "Our initiative has unbelievably big support," professor Starbatty said this week. Their initiative certainly has my support. Stick to the rules, and no bail-outs. Period.
Gavin wrote: Angela Merkel openly questions whether Greece should have joined the single currency in the first place. The data was not analysed carefully enough, in her view. The motivation was "solidarity", to get as many countries into the euro as possible.
This isn't correct Gavin. Socalled 'solidarity' was never the reason for 'getting as many countries as possible into the euro'. The sole reason was politics, a wish for more political integration. They knew there would be a crisis someday and knew they were going to use it to advocate 'more integration' as the solution. More integration as in slowly going towards that the EU can overrule/change national budgets (which would mean even less democracy) and fiscal union (ie EU income tax).
Plans into those directions are being bandied about as we type. Though certainly they will deny it until the plans are in place. They'll try to decide it behind closed doors (which they can because the EU is undemocratic and has little if any transparency) and then come out presenting it as a fâit accompli.
You see, Gavin, it is no coincidence that EU rules/plans/directives initially are always incomplete. The idea behind that is that it will lead to calls for more rules/plans/directives so that the EU can step forward and provide those. So one should not be surprised that the Eurozone is a bad construction lacking essential things which a common currency needs, such as fiscal union.
Funny thing is, everyone here seems to be missing the one country that is most self-serving in all of this: France. France says it wants a 'European' solution, but what they mean is that France wants Germany and Netherlands to guarantee Greek debts to French banks (French banks are owed more by Greece than anyone else). France as usual is extremely selfish and then accuses others of being 'anti-Europe' for trying to block the plan that would help the French the most. Another case of French post-empire syndrome.
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What makes anyone think Greece has anything to give German banks the would want or accept as a substitute for money? Banks are not in the business of owning Parthanons, islands, or Elgin Marbles, they are only interested in money. By now they probably own more non financial assets the way banks in other countries do as the result of loan defaults then they'd care to think about. Why would German banks want to invest in Greek islands? Why would they care for speculating in luxury resorts that won't have any hope of paying them back for a very long time?
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Spot on, Mr. Hewitt. I seldom agree with your comments but this time you hit the bull's eye.
As a northern italian (not a Northern League voter, don't panic), I cannot but agree with Germany's less-than-enthusiastic mood.
It angers people when bailouts are demanded without any admission of guilt by the "culprits" nor any long-term strategy to fix the problems.
We've been doing that for the last 60 years. According to a recent study by sociologist Luca Ricolfi (a left-leaning professor from Turin, certainly not a passionate League supporter), Italy's Northern regions (down to Emilia-Romagna) are forced to pay annually something in excess of 50bn (yes, billions) euros in order to balance the rest of the country's fiscal and structural deficit.
Several forces, from right to left, are finally pushing for a "fiscal federalism" in order to end this injustice (Ricolfi calls it "the Sack of the North") and, paradoxically, solve the problem for the south as well (taxes raised are kept locally, administrators are charged with 100% accountability).
So, to go back to the Greek issue, while agreeing that Greece cannot be left alone, lest we all end up paying the price of an all-european crisis, I totally understand Germany's lack of enthusiasm.
Other countries (Italy included) should at least try and use a softer approach towards the Germans, instead of bullying them into this.
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Greece is like Mexico, deadbeat nation, with nice beaches.
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Cal Mojo;
"It's amusing to watch this. Just a few years ago, the EU was supposed to be challenging the US's leadership role."
Yes it is.
"Now they're practically collapsing over the simplest problems."
Yes the same problem California suffers from, its governhments spent more than they took in because they refused to face up to their responsibility of managing money rationally. When I lived in California around the time Prop 13 passed in the late 1970s, California had a 15 billion dollar surplus in its coffers (at least that is as much as they couldn't hide.) Two years ago it had a 40 billion dollar debt. That's 2 billion a year spent more than it took in on average for 30 years straight. Then the bottom fell out when the banking crisis hit! Meanwhile California's infrastructure is falling apart. According to one report, there hasn't been construction of new high voltage power distribution lines for over 30 years. Just look at Southern California Edison's web site and they will tell you based on your location on a map with a grid overlay what order your planned electrical blackout will occur in when there is a shortage of capacity. When I lived there, there were 22 million Californians, now there are 33 million. Yet the governator is in an ad on local TV here and presumably all over the US asking people to come to live in California...presumably to help pay enough taxes to pay off its mountain of debt.
"Pay up or sit down Deutschland, it's the price of leadership."
The same could be said for California. So far Greece hasn't issued IOUs in lieu of checks for cash for tax refunds the way California has.
"If all else fails, you can hand it over to Macedonia. They know how to motivate the Greeks."
Which Macedonia? There are two. That someone stole their name is practically enough to start another war in Europe..at least a small one. Nobody in America cares if California steals names. But Albany California? Give me a break.
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Chris: you said your
"""What Greece is going through is laughable when compared to what other nations have been through."""
1912-1922: Genocide of 1,5 million Greeks in Minor Asia, 800,000 destitute immigrants in Greece another 800,000 feeling on all directions (USA, USSR, France, Canada, Australia etc.).
1940-1945: 900,000 Greeks dead (150,000 of executions only, 20,000 during war and the bulk of the rest during the great famine of 42)
1945-1949: British impose their rule and a civil war that killed 45,000 Greeks and pushed to immigration more than 400,000 Greeks
1955: Pongrom of Greeks in Konstantinople. 100s of Greeks killed and mutilated in the streets, all Greek shops and houses broken, the last large community of 250,000 Greeks of Turkey is evicted
1970: Imbros and Tenedos, the only Aegean islands of Turkey are completely ethnically cleansed by means of turning them into open prisons for criminals.
Compared to the population of Greeks at the end of the 20th century which was 9,5 million the number of dead from the genocides in Minor Asia and the WWII famine let alone other events (Balkan wars, the massacre of Greeks of Macedonia of 1903 by Ottomans after the Bulgarian-organised false rebellion of Iliden)), more than 3 million Greeks died. On top about 4 million Greeks were pushed to flee from Greece, Minor Asia and other Balkan countries under the worst of conditions to other continents.
What are you talking there Chris? Greeks were butchered. Their lands were taken. Their people killed. They were forced to flee their country under threat of famine. What are you talking there? Back in 1900 there were 12 million Turks (all muslims counted there!) and 8 million Greeks, how come today Turkey has 60 millon Turks (75 with Kurds) and Greece 10? Differential birth rates only? Are you serious?
I cannot find any other European nation which was butchered at a rate of 1/3 in the 20th century in relation to its 2000 population. That means you should have for
Poland: 12 million dead
France 17 million dead
Germany 27 million dead
Russia 50 million dead (Russia is the only state that actually achieves a similar amount of suffering)
... and so on...
"""All Greece has to do is reduce its public service sector, put measures in place to reduce tax evasion, raise its VAT for a few years and start building up industries that do not rely entirely on tourism. In a few years, it will be fine."""
Yes Chris, I agree 100%. But you forget something basic. Why would you think the EU would wish this to happen? With Greece a cleaner, less corrupt and more functioning state & market they have less to gain. Forget about European citizens, it is what bankers and corporation directors wish the issue. For the average EU citizen - first of all Greeks themselves - a less corrupt Greece is wanted, but for a banker it is a negative evolution as he will not pass his game as easily as now. Imagine the amount of manipulation: some people try to convince Germans that they have to "pay" for Greeks but in reality these are going to make an enormous profit out of the misry of Greeks and at the same time make a profit out of the naif German and other EU people.
We have said it 100 times, if the EU wanted the case of Greece could be over-turned right the next day. But they do not wish so. And thus you have all these negotiations that go now for 6 months! 6 months for an issue that should not take more than 1 week! What Greece there, 2,5% of the eurozone 1% of whole EU... are we fooling ourselfs?
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Bigotry, bigotry, bigotry has turned into noise, noise, noise. Spare us your bigotry and act: protest strongly to your governments in any way possible your democracies permit and do Greeks a favour by not bailing them out, or if unsuccessful vote your governments out (as you suggest that the Greeks should had done as if they had choices)... Otherwise you are in fact a minority.
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#121. At 11:56am on 30 Apr 2010, dahlschickens
Please read the figures I mentioned in # 70.
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MarcusAureliusII, I said it before, I'll say it again. You do not know a thing about Europe. The Greek islands the German tabloid press was referring to, are uninhabited little islands, far from being "luxury resorts". You have a simplistic, cartoonish idea of Europe in your head.
By the way, it has been possible to buy those islands for many years, so the German tabloid press did not even suggest anything untoward. The problem is simply this - those islands are an unattractive investment. Greece does not policed its borders and many of the islands are used as bases for people traffickers.
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the Greeks dont have the elgin marbles anyway - only conniving bankers like Sachs and Lehmann seem to know how to sell other peoples belongings
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Thank you Mr. Hewitt for this thoughtful article.
What I find rather disturbing is that so many people here write about the "Germans" as if we were a homogenous people. Well we are not. I as an East German living in Berlin have much more in common in mentality and outlook with my immidiate Polish neighbours than with lets say a Bavarian from Munich, I cant even understand the German they are speaking there.
That having said, in the current crisis there are indeed widespread fears among the majority of my countrymen that are legitimate, most of which are rooted in history, and that have to be respected.
I do however expect politicians and the media to be both more responsible and far-sighted. As much as I disliked him when he was chancellor, I believe Helmut Kohl would have handled this crisis differently than Merkel.
We all know that Germany has no choice here. Helping out Greece is in our own self- interest. But Germany has every right to be tough here in order to reduce the risk of something like this happening again.
The question is tough on whom. IMO it is the Greek political establishment that ought to be punished. They should be denied the opportunity to prey on the Greek people any longer.
Furthermore, what should be the outcome of this? Should we attempt to turn Greece into a second smaller Germany? Come on, who could seriously want that? While the Greeks could certainly learn from Germans or others how to run a country responsibly, Germans could learn quite a bit from Greeks too, for example not to take themselves too seriously.
Are Germans hard-working people? Most of us probably are. Does that mean all others are lazy? Certainly not. Is being hard-working a virtue? I am not so sure. My idea about technical progress is that it should enable humans to work less and less hard and to have more time for their family, friends, European neighbours. The degree of consumption in the Western world is unsustainable anyway.
One more thing. I dont know whether there is such a thing as collective consciousness. I can take personal responsibility only for what I have done and not for who I am. That having said, I do sometimes wonder whether being German entails a somewhat "evil capacity" that can manifest itself under certain conditions. I ask myself what crimes I could possibly be guilty of if I hadnt had the luck of being born into better times. I ask myself such questions when I talk to Russians, to old Greeks in a Kafenio, you name a European nation, or meet Israelis somewhere in Asia. Is it silly? Probably. But I think its justified as long as there a people in this country who keep on often violently advovating inhumane ideologies.
Tomorrow, on May Day, there will be a neo- Nazi demonstration right in the heart of Berlin, estimated attendance: 1000. There will be a counter- demonstration of about 10,0000 trying to stop the NeoNazi march which will bring them in conflict with the German police. It will be a sad day anyway.
What I find hard to accept however are moral lectures from peoples who themselves have sceletons in their closet. No other nation has so thoroughly discussed its own past as Germany, even, and this has to be admitted, if the impetus after German reunification originally came from outside (for example Daniel Goldhagen's "Hitlers willing executioners").
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Attacking Germany seems to be the best way of diverting attention from the truth and the reality. The motto seems to be, either raise the war-issue or the race issue. And it is not only the EU in Brüssels who does it, but also countries like Turkey, who are on course in establishing an islamic culture in Germany.
Therefore it is not surprising that Greece and non-German EU-politicians have taken recourse to this shameful method. If Greece is in such tatters today it is because of their own mistakes and their own faults. And they should pay for it. Not the Germans. Germany is not there in the EU to make other nations rich and profitable.
Imagine what will happen when Germany finds itself in such tatters tomorrow. No country in the EU will come forward to help it. On the contrary they will just say, that their economies are a fraction of that of Germany and therefore they are not in a position to help. Even the EU which is now batting for Greece will then not hesitate to rub salt on to the wounds by imposing a fine for piling up a debt.
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#109 Hualmek
I agree with you on most points, however a chill runs down my spine when contemplating your solution.
This has been the only period in European history that has seen such a long period of peace and its populations have not been used as cannon fodder. I see no reason that the return to nation states will not return Europe to its pre WW1 and WW11 ways.
If those European contributors have children or grand-children and they accept your conclusion as the best way to go then they know nothing of European history and think war is as a computer game with no real dead bodies or real destruction.
You may be the first and the last generation of Europeans to have been born and died in peacetime.
And now the Punch-Line ------- Thanks to GERMANY.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
At 7:36pm on 29 Apr 2010, Nik wrote:
Why do they have to bail out Greece? Why not leave it default like (non EU) Iceland did?
I would like to inform Nik that Iceland has not defaulted. The Icelandic banks defaulted but not the government. Iceland did however lose it credit rating and was "bail out" by the IMF.
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A lot of Americans used to put their money in Switzerland and now they are in big trouble and are paying (read "coughing up") dearly for it as the hiding game is over.
The only reason I say the Germans "loan Sharked" the Greeks is because in the U.S. when you loan people money they cannot pay back, it is called "loan sharking". The E.U. can't even pay for a missile defense system, what will you do when all those missiles start coming North from Iran? How about when the Ukraine and Russia, together, decide you need to pay more for your heating fuels? What would happen if Europe had to actually defend herself? The answer is easy, WW3, after all that's where the 1st and 2nd ones started. Greece is just the beginning. It also looks like Italy is in a really bad situation also (and Portugal) but I guess no one wants to mention it. It is like the "sudden acceleration" problems Toyota has. They grew too large too quickly, same with the E.U. If you are not careful, the countries will have a "sudden acceleration" out of the E.U.. There is still a lot of U.S. Civil War "Confederate Money" floating around the U.S. It makes good toilet paper if you out of the regular stuff. If I lived in the E.U. I would started changing my money into British Sterling.
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P.S. It was "Goldman Sachs" that helped Greece hide it's problems. Investment banks will destroy this world, and they are international entities.
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germany's or EU's help to greece dosen't change anything, greece will be the same greece and everyone knows that policy requires honesty.. europeans to wake up and see the truth now.. belive me if you continue to not see the truth, the european u. life will not be longer:(
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EU had made a mistake taking Greece to EU..I think Greece should be removed from the European Union.. I really couldn t understand that how Greece is a Europe country because they could not to manage their economy and they are not honest and dont apply 'honest politica' ..
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117. At 11:36am on 30 Apr 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Why is Madedonia called Former Yugoslav Republic of Madedonia?
And a small island off Syria's coast is a EU member?
Why? Ask the Greeks.
P.S. Kemal Pasha (Ataturk) has been born in Saloniki. So he was Greek. :)
------------------------------------------------
Wow..Then the Greeks who fled Anatolia in 20s and 50s were born in Turkey, therefore they were Turkish,right? You must be mental.
And what the hell is Madedonia?
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117. At 11:36am on 30 Apr 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Why is Madedonia called Former Yugoslav Republic of Madedonia?
And a small island off Syria's coast is a EU member?
Why? Ask the Greeks.
P.S. Kemal Pasha (Ataturk) has been born in Saloniki. So he was Greek. :)
---
WE GET IT! You dislike Greece and everything related to this country which is your own right.
Now, is there anything you want to say or ask even remotely close to the subject being discussed or do you want to keep aksing random, idiotic and irrelevant questions?
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Well this is just a bit more up to date than mentioning Spitfires in the second paragraph (but "angst" in the header was probably too much of a temptation for the modern sub-editor) but inevitably falls back onto the same thing, whether Germany is playing its part properly and you know, people are criticising it for not helping but that is unfair, chaps. Hasn't the writer seen the recently re-started highly controversial debate over social welfare cuts in Germany? Might this play a role in the government's response? What about the fact that the biggest holders of Greek bonds are German banks? What about the new bail-out rules? There could be more domestic political linkages to this debate than whether Bild Zeitung readers think it is a good idea or not (and of course there are some relationships there as well). Complex stuff, but aren't you supposed to be a journalist? I realise that web reporting is heavily dumbed down but I get BBC World TV and it's hard to believe that the Berlin correspondent doesn't spend the entire day drinking coffee in trendy Prenzlauer Berg being steered by some "human interest" sob-stories instead of doing research into what is actually happening in the country. Hopeless.
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EU doesn't help to greece until they behave fairly:(
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#126:
Spot on about California! I've lived there myself until recently. It should also be mentioned that this state has been in the grip of left-wing Democrats for many decades. The IOU's they had to issue are a direct consequence of their socialist government.
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I would be very interested to know how much of the debt pile of Greece comes from German banks and other German sources. The German economy would suffer by doing nothing and the Greeks default. While lending a bit of money may seem like flushing the cash down the drain, not doing anything may be worse.
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132. At 12:22pm on 30 Apr 2010, EuropeanFederalist wrote:
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What a great post, including all German agonies without having to result to namecalling for the average Greek person.
I agree with you as I have said in other posts, Germany needs to be tough, but not only on Greek people. Germany is not obligated to help, although I believe its in her best interests now that things have escalated.
Germany and the IMF should ask for the punishment of the people from the Elite/Politics that were tax evading and embezzling. Only when hard punishments are given will their future copycats think twice about doing the same. I am all for punishing them a-la Russia, maybe even China style.
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Chancellor Merkel is doing exactly the right thing- waiting. She has to make sure that Greece commits to the austerity and structural reforms 100% and not just make public statements and business as usual. There are all sorts of artificial and ugly pressure building to act quickly and unwisely. The rating agencies and their buddies- the bankers knowing very well Greece will be rescued ultimately. The media is waiting for a spectacle. The Euro-skeptics are having a filed day. Others, including France and Britain are strangely quite. Conspiracy theories and wild accusation of Germany completely misses the irresponsibility on the part of Greece that brought us to where we are today.
A normal German taxpayer has lots to complain, from solidarity tax to increasing education and medical bills etc. Still more or less everyone here understand the cost of our system that benefits all the citizens. For ordinary German citizen this is a nuisance- to have to pay for others while tightening the belts at home. Even then, most of the us rational folks understand the importance of not letting the Euro fall, so ultimately Merkel will grudgingly get the approval of German citizens. The same rational folks, however, also want to make sure that this money is not thrown away. So Merkel must wait. The conditions are clear -Greece has to accept a standard structural reform package from IMF that can be verified and measured. The alternatives are wide open.
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#137 Zathros
´Loan Sharks´ are those who charge you over the going rate of interest for money you ask to borrow, depending on you rating.
Your connections between WW111, toilet paper and Pound Sterling I find interesting.
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Re124: I have a proposition for you. Between us the Southern Italians have anyway some Greek ancestry as in ancient times more Greeks lived there than mainland Greece (thus called by Greeks Megali Ellada & Romans as Magna Grecia, i.e. Great Greece). Perhaps it is their Greek genes in them that make them lazy, mafia-oriented and such. So why don't you get your independence from them and leave them alone to find themselves their place in the region or even to join us in a Greek-Latin state? Dangerous eh? Two mafias joining forces, they will dominate the Mediteranean, little Byzantine Empire back, they will close the Otranto channel, they will try built ports in the south and move the Mediterranean commerce from the Suez-Gibraltar-Rotterdam or Hamuburg to alimentate all Europe it is today to Suez-Greece to alimentate Eastern Europe and & Suez-south Italy to alimentate western Europe. By driving the Southstream via Greece to South Italy and there meeting a Libyan gaz & petrol pipeline, South Italy will jump up without much other forms of industrialisation to being more rich than you in the north.
No. I do not support the above of course.
BUT in my analysis whenever I hear "it costs us a lot to support them" I am very reserved. Really, reserved. If North Italians spend so much to "support" south Italians, it seems to me that they do it mostly to protect their own regional interests and make sure they avoid their own demise. South Italians were knowledgeable of this 100 years ago and the mafia formations where nothing else than what "cosa nostra" means, i.e. "our cause, out interests". I.e. local powerful families joined forces to protect their regional interests as opposed to the state which was technically implicitly pushing the south to remain stagnant. It is not the only example. For example in Greece the opposite happened, i.e. the rich region (Thessaloniki, Macedonia) was ruled by the poor (Athens, Attica) and thus the region remained rather stagnant. However Macedonians would never dare to think going out of Greece cos they would have necessarily to take the name with them as they are the most proud Greeks and since southern Greeks could not do either without the name, there would be a problem. North Greece vs. South Greece reminds too much Korea and it is not our idea. Afterall Greeks despite their regional differences generally have an allegiance with each other which is far above petty financial issues: biggest example Cypriots who said NO to British money and fought harsh and suffered to get independence and join poor, civil war ridden Greece knowing that they would win much less financially, but did so out of their national feeling, for them their natural place was being part of a Greek state.
I think Northern Italians should get an example from Cypriots. Otherwise one has to start analysing differntly the situation.
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Instead of a comment:
"There are so many zeros on the front page of the tabloid Bild, you almost need a calculator to understand the story.
The headline declares: "25,000,000,000 Euros!" and "Now the Greeks want even more of our money!"
Twenty-five billion euros is rumoured to be the cost to Germany of participating in a three-year bail-out of Greece.
"Is Greece now a bottomless pit for taxpayers' money?" the paper continues.
It is not just the tabloids that are fuming. So is the German public. Nearly every day, opinion polls in newspapers and on TV show that most Germans oppose the idea of their country bailing out Greece.
European solidarity has gone out of the window. Germans find it hard to understand why they have to pour billions of German euros into Greece, when it is Greek profligacy that is to blame for the mess in the first place. [BBC World Service]
And now about ENOSIS and FYROM :-)))
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RobGray wrote:
"Germany will be giving Greece more money than it spends on education.
That is getting up a lot of peoples noses here."
To be more accurate, I'd say German citizens had their money taken by the german state, which is now intent on loaning that money to the Greek state, in order that the Greek state can pay the money in interest repayments to the investment corporations which own greek debt, all of whom sponsor the german political parties who staff the german state.
If people were able to grasp the differences between our two sentences, I'd bet folks would be getting more than a little upset.
But the reality is being sold to us as some kind of "gift" from one country to another. The reporting is so infantile in its complexity, you'd think everyone in Germany was on the same money, working purely for the state, and the same in greece.
This is childish, "football fan" thinking. "You'll never walk alone" because "we're all in this together".
That lie, that everyone is in this together, works on multiple levels.
Firstly in is a lie that the EU is national governments working together rather than in their own self interests.
Secondly, it is a lie that national governments are representative of everyone in their communities, and work to enrich everyone together.
Can we please dispense with the puerile pretense that everyone is equal and everyone is in the same boat?
Can we please start to acknowledge that a lot of Europeans are making a vast amount of money FOR THEMSELVES ALONE out of this debt mountain?
Just now the BBC news reports that the Greek government is refusing to tell its people what it has agreed to do in order to obtain money from germany. But it is abundantly clear what it intends to do with that money: pay it to foreign creditors.
We have reached the point in Europe now where governments are bringing out the soldiers and the men with truncheons and guns to disperse the people as they set about protecting the private interests of foreign creditors.
We call this "representative democracy". But who is being represented?
Well, look at who is being served by government men with truncheons and guns. Foreign creditors. Investment corporations.
The "democratic" government of greece would rather use force against its own teachers than ask the investment corporations to take a loss because they can't afford to repay stupid loans.
It is the moral equivalent of stealing from your children to pay your own debts to creditors from other families.
The only thing that is sacred in the EU now is that investment corporations obtain their profits. In full. At any cost. And the media report this reality as though we are all in this together.
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@118 MA
"This is what my comments about whom the Germans were exporting to I posted on other threads was about. If the EU wants to be considered as one political/economic bloc, then exports from Germany to other EU countries doesn't count. Not the way exports from say the US to Canada and Mexico do. Take those exports out of the data and Germany is no big deal and what exports to foreign countries that matter does exist was in part the result of bribes, not competition. How could it be? The Germany corporations have to subsidize Germany's lavish social safety net. Just one more fraudulent statistical slight of hand Europe uses to puff itself up. When all of the hot air finally escapes from it after it implodes, it will be flat as a pancake, about two inches high."
Germany is the fourth strongest economy on this planet, based on GDP.
It is the second largest export economy.
The biggest trading partners (depending on year).
1. France
2. USA
3. Netherlands
4. Italy
The rankings haven`t changed much since 2000.
One would think that people posting about economics actually have some kind of basic knowledge.
But then again you display a blantant ignorance about what the EU actually is and how it works.
Otherwise you wouldn`t compare the EU to a federal state such as the USA.
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Internet based union is obsolete
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Since i have been old enough to vote, there has been only one change of government in Britain. On the day of this one change in 30 years (May 2 1997) the headline in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung was “Victory for the Continent”.
Following last night’s debate it is now almost certain that there will be a change of government in the UK next Friday and that David Cameron will be prime minister. The only remaining doubt is if he will be able to form a stable majority government (though this seems increasingly likely). I do not expect the headline in next Friday’s FAZ to be “Victory for the Island” but as the vice-like grip of the one-size-fits-all eurozone monetary policy squeezes the Greek economy beyond breaking point and promises a decade of deflation to come from one corner of the Eurozone to another, there is a real intellectual victory for euro-scepticism which predicted all this would come to pass more than a decade ago.
So perhaps the FAZ should mark next Friday’s change of government in Britain with something a little more Churchillian to reflect 13 years during which EU-scepticism has spread well beyond the UK into former federalist heartlands that are now paying for their madness. Given the massive stock of debt accumulated in the eurozone periphery after a decade of inappropriate interest rates, all of which can be traced directly to the decisions of a tiny euro-federalist clique, perhaps next Friday’s FAZ headline should be “never has so much been owed by so many, because of so few”.
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Instead of a comment:
"Spain's unemployment rate has hit 20% for the first time in nearly 13 years, official figures have shown.
There were 4,612,700 people unemployed in the country at the end of March, the national statistics agency INE said.
Spain's jobless rate has risen sharply during the economic downturn and is the highest in the eurozone." [BBC World Service]
Now, can we talk about Portugal for a moment?
Instead of a "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"?
Or a 'country' of Southern Cyprus?
Before mighty euro collapses?
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This is an extremely good analysis of the situation and its prognosis. Not only does the Greek government need to take firm steps to put Greece back on an even keel, but needs to take stern measures to ensure that taxes are paid properly and promptly - which I believe is one of the underlying problems. The Germans are right to expect that other members of the Eurozone will behave in the financially responsible way that they do. However, human nature being such as it is, although the Germans may be willing to bail out Greece this time, it is unlikely that Greeks (facing stringent fiscal measures) will feel grateful. In fact in all probablity, they will not. The real question for the whole EU and global banking is "why, if the banks caused the initial problems, are they not repaying - with interest - the money they received in bail-outs from their respective governments, who are now themselves in straitened circumstances? " The former are again in profit to the tune of millions.
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Re "WE GET IT! You dislike Greece and everything related to this country which is your own right."
Not in the least.
I simply dislike hypocrisy and jingoism.
Not that I particularly care for tax evaders who boast about their crookedness.
[That, btw., goes for Italians, as well]
Or farmers who get EU subsidies for non-existing olive groves.
Or the fact that "Bulgaria waves the rules".
Or that nothing can be settled in Romania without a fat bakshish.
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145. At 1:13pm on 30 Apr 2010, andreasr wrote:
Spot on about California! I've lived there myself until recently. It should also be mentioned that this state has been in the grip of left-wing Democrats for many decades.
-----------------------------------------
As anything apart from nutter militias is left of the Republicans what is your point? You have to go far further to get to what is deemed as "socialist" in the states. Even then you have only got as far as what the rest of the world would consider as social democrats.
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147. At 1:17pm on 30 Apr 2010, ptsa
132. At 12:22pm on 30 Apr 2010, EuropeanFederalist
Good points.
I think it is obvious that Gavin is the right-wing type that in the best tradition of x-President Bush would define the world as Good X, bad Y. That's it. Eternal contemption for the sinners. He decided long time ago who is supporting here, this article is not out of the blue, it is within his line of thought that Greeks are bad and have to be punished.
Gavin and many posts confuse profoundly the people and the governments simplify complex processes. As if Greek voters had any real choice. At the end of the day people in Greece and in Germany will have to pay the bill and politicians, bankers and super-rich which created the current mess will continue to become richer while right-wing press and articles will accuse the suffering Greek people. Nice work.
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"French senator Charles Pasqua has been given a one-year suspended jail sentence for corruption while he was interior minister in the 1990s.
A close aide of the former centre-right President, Jacques Chirac, he was convicted of embezzlement over sales of police equipment abroad.[..]
Mr Chirac is to stand trial next year, accused of misuse of public funds when he was mayor of Paris in the 1990s." [BBC World Service]
Will this news make Greek nationalists feel slightly less defensive?
Or those who stoppped an investigation into BAE massive bribes
on 'national security grounds' feel better?
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We need syntetick neuron to feed our bifurcation .....or Chinas Firewall .
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When Greece defaults (it will, it will), expect a major run on its banks as Greeks scramble to remove their euros before their savings are frozen and converted into devalued 'New Drachma'.
The clever money is already leaving.
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Chris Camp wrote:
'What Greece is going through is laughable when compared to what other nations have been through. All Greece has to do is reduce its public service sector, put measures in place to reduce tax evasion, raise its VAT for a few years and start building up industries that do not rely entirely on tourism. In a few years, it will be fine.'
Chris, notwithstanding the fact that I find that your views on Greeks and Greece can get quite coloured at times, this is the most correct remark I have read so far in this blog. The only thing I wish to add is that the current Greek government (a) was very wrong to increase corporate taxes and (b) they seemingly intend to keep Greece's strict labour legislation in place. It is very likely that Greece is about to plunge into a long period of slow development and high unemployment.
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@Vassilis#160
I am generally with you, but do not share your criticism about Gavin's article. I was not being sarcastic when I expressed my gratitude for his article and I think you misinterpret his intentions.
IMO his article does not reflect a good-or-bad attitude (that is however reflected in quite a few posts here) but rather an attempt to explain the German point of view, the deep fears ingrained in the German consciousness that play a role here rather than a resurgence of nationalism or any general ill-feelings toward Greece.
I have tried to add my own German point of view to that, namely the hope that the Greek people will be able to understand the German side and that Germans also (especially the tabloid media) will finally exhibit some responsibility and take a closer, more differentiated look at the Greek side, too.
Because this is what the "project of Europe" is about: talk to each other, listen to each other, learn from each other. Then all of us will benefit.
I personally have learned a lot on this blog from nik, ptsa and you about how Greeks feel including many facts I didnt know about.
And one more thing on the "bail-out". German taxpayers will only have to foot the bill if Greece does indeed default. Until then, we dont pay a single cent. If Greece does repay, Germany even makes money. German taxpayers are however already paying massively for the greed of the bankers.
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The bailout is a bailout of German and French banks.
I'm sure the average Greek citizen could easily live without a bailout.
Let's frame things correctly first before discussing German feelings.
We hear all this lecturing about moral hazard, but as an American, I wonder if that was brought up when Germany was rewarded with the Marshall Plan for its previous behavior. Is that moral hazard?
I wasn't alive then. I wonder how my parents felt about that Plan, having just endured WW2.
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#159:
My point was that socialist states eventually go bankrupt. Sucking your most productive citizens ("rich people" in socialist speak) dry to sustain everyone else and a massively bloated state bureaucracy won't work forever.
In the US liberal=socialist, ok? Don't ask me why, probably a leftover from the cold war, trying to appear all anti-communist and such.
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It used to be if you made an investment and it didn't pan out, you were just "out of luck". Now, with "Investment Banks", it is, if we don't get out money back for whatever reason, we want the state, the people, or whoever has the money or resources, to pay us back, or we will "take our ball and go home", and not play with you any more.
It is precisely because the E.U. is not a "Federalist State", that it is unworkable. There isn't enough in common between the countries to have this kind of transparency. I love the "America is in decline" posts. HAHAHAHAHA. When we finally pull out of all the military basis around the world and let you guys go at it again, I assure you the E.U., if it is still around, we be a meaningless entity.
America now uses less oil than it has 5 years ago. More bio-fuels are coming on the market, backed by sound military research. Soon, if not already, we will have the ability to protect ourselves at an unprecedented level (X-37, beam weapons). It seems as if our "old enemy", is becoming more of our "old friend" (Russia), I can just feel them imagining the western hoards marching east for their natural resources, like before, Lebensraum. Good luck with that. The reason people bring up past History is because History is prologue.
I wonder how far "German Angst" will go. Nazism started from the bottom up. History has proven that. R.I.P. E.U. The E.U. is really France and Germany trying to control Europe, without fighting or paying out a little money as possible. Investment banks are the tools of these countries, (including the U.S.), if they take a loss, then the governments should say tough sh@t. That's why you got those high returns.
I am posting little bit all over the place, just reflecting what I have read on this thread.
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Re: 158
Powermeerkat,
Coming from you, an US American, this is a bit rich.
Ever heard of the Enron scandal, Bernard Madoff, and the latest about Goldman Sachs?
Ever heard of a former US vice-president, instrumental in the Iraq war, who was also ex-CEO of a large US corporation, which benefited a lot from the ‘liberation’ of Iraq?
Now, before you start talking about money for non-existent olive groves, remember the money for corn and maze, ditched out to US farmers which end up as fuel in the petrol tanks of gas-guzzling US ‘cars’.
It would also be good to remember the weapons sold by the US to ‘honorary citizen of Detroit’ Saddam Hussein at the height of the Iran-Iraq war, or the ‘Iran-contras’ scandal.
As to the ‘baksheeshes’ in Romania, think of the criteria for choosing interns in the White House. Being able to perform duties on while on one’s knees seems to have featured prominently on the list.
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150:
Nik, you're too touchy. My comments didn't spawn out of dislike of southern italians. I was simply making the point that those lands were kept down by a purposeless, repeated assistentialism, which they ended up depending from.
On THAT issue, if there's anyone who has the right to be angry it's not them, but us. I angers me that my Grandparents (who were as poor as southern italians are now) had to work their entire life, and my parents too, and give 40% of what they earned in order to keep a dead car running. And now me and my brother. And all southerners who live and work in the North of Italy. They too pay the price and aren't happy.
I gave you data, an academic research (very much considered), logical conclusions. You over-reacted with spite, simple as that.
If it's any worth to you, I very much value the Greeks and their long struggle against the Turks. I oppose Turkey's membership to the EU. I deem Europe's boundaries should be there where the name itself was invented. Never in a million years I would give up on Greece being part of Europe, of which it is the main cultural cradle.
I was just pointing out that Germany, in this occasion, has all the rights to be miffed.
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In general much calmer voices than what we have here. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,691255,00.html
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To all those naifs who discussed about the 000,000,000 of the money Greeks ask supposedly from Germans praising Germans for refusing them - one has to remind them that
1) It was Germans that largely funded corrutpion in Greece
2) Last vote to get the Olympics was German
3) Germans own some of the largest Greek infrastructure projects
4) Germans bribed Greeks even for... buying their cars
... as if the already German-bribed Greeks would buy anything else, perhaps they were afraid that they bribed so much Greeks that they would turn into Italian cars i.e. Ferrari, Lamborgini... ehehehe...
What I am saying to Germans?
Late knowledge should had been there earlier. What did they do in 2000?
Now Germans have a solution:
Putin mentioned it clearly: Russia funds Greece at less than 3,5% and can easily support it to get out of the trouble.
Do Germans have a problem with that?
If not, why do they shout and cry like babies?
PS: Ha!
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"We hear all this lecturing about moral hazard, but as an American, I wonder if that was brought up when Germany was rewarded with the Marshall Plan for its previous behavior. Is that moral hazard?"
Yaaawwwwwwn.... we've been over this. A dozen times. A hundred times.
1.) It was morally correct to let West Germany participate in the Marshall Fund because the American presence in Europe was correct. Winning the cold war in Europe with a weak West Germany or no West Germany at all would have been infinitely more difficult, if not impossible. The Marshall Plan was not about "being nice to Germans". It was understood back then and it is understood by those who understand basic geostrategic ramifications today.
2.) The U.S. confiscated German patents (and yes, I am repeating this for the umptieth time, but thios constant invocation of the Marshall Plan is not getting any more original either) worth 10 bn Dollars back then. In today's money, that's on the better side of 100 bn Dollars. In other words, the US profited more than any other occupying power from its presence in Germany and its subsequent re-development. We British got bombed-out cities and a few lumps of coal. The Russians got old mashinery and slaves. In other words, the Marshall Plan paid for itself and did more than that.
----
The Marshall Plan was an integral part of the (morally sound) American plan for Europe.
This current problem is something completely different. What can you do with an economy that has been going wrong for at least 30 years. It's nothing to do with the question of whether or not it is a "moral hazard" to help Greece. The question is, can you solve this problem by throwing more money at it? This question did not come up in the Marshall Plan, because it was known that the money would be put to good use. The West Germans and all of western Europe understood full-well that they would squander the monies at their own peril. And western Europe prospered. Does Greece understand that they squander funds given to them at their own peril? I do not know the definitive answer to that question, but the wave of strikes and street riots in Greek cities in the last few days provides some kind of an indication.
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www.spiegel.de:
"Deutschland-AG plant Griechenland-Hilfe"
roughly:
"Corporate Germany plans aid for Greece".
Interesting read for those of you who read German. According to the article, Germanm CEO's are going to donate money to Greece, which are not part of the funds the FR of Germany is going to transfer to Greece on Monday. SPIEGEL writes that corporate Germany has a vested interest in making the rescue of Greece work, as only Swiss and French banks would suffer more than German banks if Greece defaulted.
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@EuropeanFederalist
I did not claim that you agreed with me on Gavin's article. We do not agree on this point (Gavin's articles on this theme take a specific side in my view, it is not only this one, there is no balance of arguments, even if it is not obvious, reading between the lines one can see how he sees things) but anyway this is not the central point and I understand fully the German point of view. Obviously I am unhappy with Greek system, its many failings and we have to learn a lot from Germany on a number of issues, obviously Greeks will suffer greatly because of austerity. I hope it works. I say this very humbly and I really believe it.
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@ Nik, your idea of Greece as the innocent victim of nasty outsiders simply does not add up.
1.) "To all those naifs who discussed about the 000,000,000 of the money Greeks ask supposedly from Germans praising Germans for refusing them - one has to remind them that"
You keep on going on about how the Greek government never asked the German government for money. I am going to give it to you from a third-party source. It seems you cannot see the forest for the trees.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1984192,00.html
2.) "It was Germans that largely funded corrutpion in Greece", "Last vote to get the Olympics was German", "Germans own some of the largest Greek infrastructure projects", "Germans bribed Greeks even for... buying their cars". I would like to save this on a word document somewhere so that I can quote it next time accuse other people of "racism" when they express the humble opinion that they find the Greek attitude towards things like "assuming responsibility" and "making decisions" rather unlike anything that would have to be expected from real adults. It is always the same. Greece has not done anything wrong. Nasty foreigners have corrupted the poor little Greek nation.
Note how I did not take issue with your "genocide against Greeks in Minor Asia" nonsense this time. Some things just do not have the same replay value as others.
"Putin mentioned it clearly: Russia funds Greece at less than 3,5% and can easily support it to get out of the trouble."
Well, why does he not do it then? Why is it Western Europe at the moment that is looking after Greece, trying to get it out of its self-inflicted crisis? I think people would love it if Russia helped Greece out. But Putin is a washed-up KGB goon. All talk and no walk.
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Dear all,
just something, to get things straight; probably many of you read the initial comment by Tom Buhrow, some of you might not. Since it was cited by Mr. Hewitt, probably fair, to post it here, copyright is with Mr. Buhrow and the New York Times:
"We've Waited Too Long for Europe
By TOM BUHROW
Published: April 27, 2010
Every comedian has a routine in which he asks members of the audience where they’re from. When a comedian in Paris got the answer, “I’m from Europe,” he knew immediately what that meant: “You’re from Germany!”
That was then. Ten years ago, to be precise. I was a correspondent in France for German television at the time and my country was still in the “we are not Germans, we are Europeans” mode.
These days, with Germany hesitant to help bail out an insolvent Greece, fellow Europeans and Americans alike are voicing concern that we are abandoning our European enthusiasm for crude nationalism.
I think it is the other way around: It is the others who have never agreed to a full Europe, and now they are astonished that our resources are running out.
Let me explain. Germany is probably still the most ardent believer in Europe. We are not becoming more nationalistic, just more realistic. For decades we have shouldered the challenges of the European project. We paid the lion’s share into all the budgets and grand schemes the European Union ever conceived. We gave our national interests second row.
Shell-shocked and ashamed after World War II, we yearned for a new identity. We wanted to be Europeans more than we wanted to be Germans. That was our state of mind throughout the Cold War. It was true even for a long time after the Wall came down.
After Paris, I went to Washington in 2002 to head our bureau there, and I shared this view with a French diplomat. “We are not just flirting with France,” I told him. “We are serious: We want to marry. We always wanted to. But that window is closing.”
Not abruptly, I told him. We were slowly coming to terms with ourselves. We were becoming a normal nation — as much as possible, anyway.
He was baffled. He had never looked at it that way. For a long time, France was the beautiful woman who is used to being courted but has no intentions of ever exchanging vows. And in a way this goes for all Europe. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. The suitor can still adore and socialize. But sooner or later he will remember the old Beatles song: Money can’t buy you love.
Just before the European Union expanded, it became clear that deciding by consensus would not work any longer, and a real federation was discussed. But Jacques Chirac, then president of France, said his country would never be the Arkansas of a United Europe. When told that France could be California, he said this too would never happen. It was clear to us that our fellow Europeans did not want to go further with a united Europe. They still don’t.
Yet that is what we were promised when we gave up the German mark for the euro. We were solemnly told that this monetary union was only one leg; the other would be full political union.
The mark was Germany’s flag, our identity. Germans trusted their central bank, the Bundesbank, more than any political body. The Bundesbank kept the currency stable, and we loved stability. Yet we gave all that up for a dream: a “United States of Europe.” But nobody was dreaming with us.
Most European governments wanted the cake and eat it, too — remain nation-states politically while expecting solidarity economically. That’s like having your own checking account and expecting your neighbor to provide overdraft protection.
Today Germans are being accused of egotism and nationalism because they are hesitating to bail other countries out. Old accusations start to fly. Is that what the European project is — either Germany foots the bill or our past is invoked against us?
Message to Europe: We would still love to pay, but the money is no longer there. Germany still has some strong industries, but as a country its growth is too little to cope with its shrinking and aging population.
Margaret Thatcher once shouted during E.U. budget negotiations: “I want my money back!” Imagine if Germany ever said that! At least Thatcher was talking about her own money — British contributions to the E.U. Now we hear: “I want money!” Full Stop. Well, if Europe is only about money, then I fear Germans might soon be tempted to say: “We want our mark back.”
Besides, this is not just about money. If it was we would probably grind our teeth and pay in the end, as we always do. This is about our common currency. We all vowed to keep it stable. If we break that vow, we discredit our Union.
So maybe it is time for some straight talk. The kind of talk that our governments don’t give us. My fellow Europeans, it is not us Germans who are turning away from Europe. It is you who never fully turned toward it.
We wanted to dissolve ourselves in a larger Union, you did not. That’s sad, but O.K. It does not mean we’ll start hating each other. We will continue to admire Greece’s contribution to European heritage, to love French beauty and culture, Italian friendliness, Spain’s beautiful coastlines and all the other wonders of our diverse Continent.
We will visit each other, do commerce and agree on projects that Germany will continue to fund. We’ll remain great friends. We’ll just not share the pin-code of our ATM card with you. That is reserved for a spouse, and we’ve waited a long time at the altar.
Tom Buhrow is the evening news anchor for the German television network ARD. "
I think, this comment by Tom Buhrow probably really reflects, what's happening in Germany and in the minds of its population.
There will be a bail-out for Greece, not the right term, by the way, since the Germans (and other Euro-partners, btw) only guarantee for greek credits. Let's assume, the greek will pay.
Definetely, the German poulation is very worried and very... well, not amused, to put it in a british way.
Let's hope, German banks don't profit from this situation, ' don't care about markets, but this would be the worst case thing (morally) : Germany profiting from this situation; I don't think the German public wishes anything like this. The banks... who knows.
I'm pretty sure, as to all these speculations, yes, Germany will also support Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Italy. As a matter of fact, Germany learned a lesson some 70 years ago and again 20 years ago; and there is a lesson to be learned by other European Nations.
However, all european partners should be aware that Germany's economic power and financial capabilities are not unlimited, in fact they are strained, even without any bail-outs. Reason: Strong economic growth doesn't mean strong income for the state! Companies are global, tax is something national, they simply are not congruent, and, hence, cannot be compared.
Ash
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@Chris Camp
You make assumptions as if certain behaviours are in the genes. It is not the case. The 'fiscal party' in Greece started by Andreas Papandreou in 1981 and was aggravated by the last conservative governemnt (which by the way was voted by Greek people to do drastic changes, to 're-establish the state' as it promised, it did absolutely nothing at best, actually created a monstrous public service and borrowed excessively, total disaster! was voted off with a land slide in recent elections). Before 1981 the conservative governments had excellent managers as prime ministers and ministers and had public finance in great shape (there might have been other problems but not problems of public finance). Of course there will be demostrations and riots etc. Some conbination of political posturing (this is what we see so far, very very limited for Greek standards) but with the new austerity programme I also expect escalation from common people. However, if austerity measures are at the right level so that they do not create a total catastrophe of economy and there is proper management (Greeks do not trust their governments, EU and IMF should make sure that moneys are not spent unwisely, I am very worried about this than anything else!) this should work. Thus there are two big ifs. One, is austerity finetuned at the correct level? Two, will the Greek government use the moneys wisely? Let's hope that the IMF and EU know waht they are doing and they will scrutinise the implementation of changes well. However if in 3 months they come and see that they have to cut 2 more salaries, and the next 3 months 2 more salaries etc. etc. this will end up obviously in failure... if the economy is destroyed completely it is better that you default.
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@175. Chris Camp
Major Greek companies (substantial parts of Greek telecom, Athens airoport, media) are owned by German companies already. The stakes are high.
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Again, I hope they monitor where their moneys go! Greek politicians are not to be trusted! I am listening to Greek media. If you think that there is anger against IMF, Germany etc. (ok some ill feelings for certain German politicians for being ambiguous on what to do and making the rescue even more difficult and expensive and painfil yes and this is justified in my opinion) you are wrong. Anger is against Greek politicians (almost all of them) by large margin. No trust whatsoever. There should be an unprecedented political reform in Greece. The present parties have done their cycle.
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Tonight German media report that German banks, insurance, and industry will contribute with 1.2 billion Euros to the Greece credit. This comes as a voluntary contribution after a couple of days with discussions about the role these sectors in Greece.
The German government wants to avoid a law that commit the private sector, because it will raise legal problems in the field expropriation. The initiative is therefore most helpful to the government.
Germany is supposed to offer Greece a credit of appr. 8 billion Euros, while France is commited with 6 billions.
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181. At 6:49pm on 30 Apr 2010, vassilis
Harder
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We have a couple of Americans here that contribute with an amazing ignorance on Europe. I will refer them to the article in Newsweek
“Why Europe Will Win.
Forget the conventional wisdom. European firms are faster-growing, more profitable, and better at globalization than their American rivals.”
On http://www.newsweek.com/id/236598/
The article documents some of the strengths of European economy.
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Marshall Plan my ass. The only thing that made any real difference in the progress of Germany and Japan after the war was the cover to allow development of a democratic form of government. The work was done and progress made by the citizens of those defeated countries. You only have to look at some of the so called winners to appreciate this.
Now China has thrown the world a curve ball by promoting capitalism with a state controlled twist. Heck it seems they may be the strongest capitalist of all. It's always a lot easier to do anything if you have absolute power. It just not free market.
The thing I admire is the citizens of both Germany and Japan bust their butts to get their country up and going. Certainly Germany has been more forthright about their failings than Japan. Nevertheless I don't remember either party complaining about what they had to go through. The thing that impressed the Americans occupying Germany after the war was how everybody worked to restore their country....everybody.
Cultures are different one to the next but I suggest unless there is a willingness to get on with it then no one is going very far. Being whiny does not help.
Some years ago I was involved in evaluating rotary transfer machines which did all kind of complex machining operations. We narrowed the search down to a German and Italian company. Each machine cost between 1.5 to 2 million dollars. It was clear to me that the German machines were superior. They were simpler and better built. However I was not the big cheese. So the big cheeses went to Europe to compare companies. The German company ran a tight ship, no fringe, whistles or bells. No fine dinner was forth coming. The Italians on the other hand laid out the red carpet. They had all the frills. Sales departments, engineering departments, technical this, technical that. Kinda like Industrial Disneyland.
On returning home the cheeses went with the Italian machines to the tune of about 20 million. When the cheeses explained to me why they went with the Italian machines I was told how impressed they were with the facilities and other bells and whistles. I noted that it just wasn't the German way. You know there is the right way, the wrong way and the German way.
Well to make a long story short. After three years of trying to use the machines they were sold as scrap metal. This is not to downgrade the Italians. The fault lay with my company. The point is to illustrate my take on how the Germans are different (not necessarily better).
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the question is not "why does Germany not want to give Greece lots of money", but why are all the other countries so eager? after all people in my country are still mad that we bailed ourselves out.
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Ryn (186) : They expect to be the next ones to stretch out their begging bowls. Italy already has a debt exceeding 100% of GDP and suffered a 30% loss of labour cost competiveness relative to Germany since the Euro was introduced.
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186.Ryn wrote: the question is not "why does Germany not want to give Greece lots of money", but why are all the other countries so eager? after all people in my country are still mad that we bailed ourselves out.
Self serving reasons. Some (like Italy, Portugal) think they might need such a bailout themselves. Others (like France) want others to cough up the money to cover the debts to French banks.
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188. At 9:39pm on 30 Apr 2010, mvr512 wrote:
I am not so sure that your explanations are convincing. If it is only Germany that gives and everybody else just receives and Germany is unhappy about this, there is an obvious solution. Germany voluntarily leaves a union that it is not in her interest. It couldn't be that the other countries are not hurt by the money that they have to give, ok it is more for Germany but actually it is because it is bigger and in no big finacial trouble (not as bad as others at least). I think the real reason for the escalation of the crisis and the difference of Germany is the lack of proper leadership in Germany, just grandstanding for the elections, empty words to the electorate that money won't be given, when it is perfectly clear to almost all other countries that there is no way out however unpleasant the situation is. Chancelor Merkel and her coalition partners should be punished for this artificial and hollow grandstanding which only aggravated the problem. If the package of help was decided much earlier it could have been smaller (obviously Greek government delayed stupidly the austerity package and also aggravated the problem, unlike Ireland, but as I have told many a time Greek governments are incompetent).
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So demanding proper austerity measures and reforms from a contributing country is now called "lack of leadership"?
Plese read the above sentence over a few times and then try to think of a possible reason, why Germany is financially far better off than your country.
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57 Homer Simpson wrote:
And what about the Germans who suddenly won't fight in Afghanistan because it's against their religion even though the US was attacked and they have clear obligations under the NATO treaty, is that an example of their morality?
Here are the official figures of America's allies fighting in Afghanistan:
NATO – ISAF (102,554)[1]
United States – 62,415
United Kingdom – 9,500
Germany – 4,665
Furthermore, religion has nothing to do with it as there is no official state religion in Germany and church and state are kept strictly separated. This war is very unpopular in Germany (rightly so in my view) and the government took great electoral risks in committing itself to send troops.
Incidentally could Homer tell us which part of America was attacked or indeed invaded by Afghanistan?
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EuropeanFederalist, you seem to be a nice guy, with a real European spirit, perhaps a bit naive... "nicely" naive...
But please do not listen to Nik or even try to learn from him.
He is probably close to KKE (Greek communist party and the union allies), Greece is full of them and they brought this country to its knees.
Honecker would have been probably his best friend...
His comments are so absurd, it is unbelievable
Bringing in the Russians?
what?... he wants to replace the Kosovar guerillas by the Russian Mafia, the Western-style banks by Russian oil and gas companies, the IMF by the KGB...
Perfect solution for Greece.
All the Greek posts here are so typical for them, I meet them every day...
A bunch of...
* selfish, arrogant, "always the fault of the others" drama-queens
like their Finance Minister who blames Brussels for slow "solidarity"
* socialist-minded, society-assisted scroungers
Never taking responsibility, never learnt what responsibility is...
Until they get married with 35, they live with and are looked after by the family... after that by the state... and now by the EU...
* nationalists
but only in football, basketball or when hurt in their national pride or regarding common enemies, Turkey, IMF, US or Britain
if not Greece is a loose collection of regions with s huge mistrust towards Athens
* in the past living dreamers, and with past I mean at least 2500 years...
people get the government they deserve... its called democracy... a Greek word...
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Drugster man;
"One would think that people posting about economics actually have some kind of basic knowledge."
Yes but your ignorance is of no consequence to me. Funny how the EU wants to be seen as one large superstate when that puffs it up...It's got a larger GDP than the US but as individual nations when that puffs it up....Germany is the world's number one exporter. Well three of its four largest customers are in the EU and when they go down, Germany will go down with it.
Maggie McGuire
There are no Germans fighting in Afghanistan or anywhere else. They will not fight, they're just there to be "on holiday" as you Brits call it. They won't fight for anyone but themselves...if that. Maybe it's better that way. It might scare a lot of French, Polish, and Russians if it were otherwise. What would they say to a Germany with nuclear weapons?
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Well, it is nice to see that EVERYBODY in here is talking about religion. You know... Faith and stuff.
How much faith can you loose before you loose all faith?
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192. At 11:21pm on 30 Apr 2010, oeichler wrote:
"... people get the government they deserve... its called democracy... a Greek word..."
The problem here is that the Germans and everyone else are being stuck with it, too, and being asked to pay for it.
____________
The Government of Greece is paying out euros, cash, redeemable today. To do that is as to borrow those Euros, and nobody wants to lend the money because the risk of not being paid back is too high.
There have been lots of suggestion on how to balance Greece's budget, some of them might even be good.
Ok, so what if the Greek government starts paying some fraction, say 60 or 70%, in cash in transfers to individuals, and pays the remainder, say 30 or 40 % in Greek government bonds, priced in Euros, paying, say, 3 or 4 %, and redeemable at auction starting five years from now. In the meantime the Greek government bonds would be openly tradeable in secondary markets.
The Greek government bonds would then function as, and provide the flexibility of, a second currency. The discount price of the bonds would amounting to the de facto exchange rate of that currency against the Euro. The five year maturity would permit the markets to settle down with a longer time horizon.
Would that not internalize at least a portion of the risk that the social programs were excessively generous?
Would it not also immediately internalize a significant portion of Greece's need for external borrowing?
Would the secondary markets not then immediately price Greek government debt?
Would that not take a good slice of the load of bailing Greece out off the backs of German (and other) taxpayers, and rebalance it on the very same Greek taxpayers who are benefiting from these transfers to individuals?
Would that not also give a great incentive to those being paid in the "second currency" to favour policies that would tend to maintain the value of the second currency against the Euro, so that, in the end, they take less of a haircut?
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#189 Vassillis
Please read #178 Ashkar
You may then understand what you, Greece and Europe stand to loose.
This is not the time for arrogance, but contemplation.
A high-school- teenage-teeny-bopper-bubble-gummer reply is not required !
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Nothing really to explain Mr Hewitt.
Germany wants to be the central power behind the Brussels' throne: However, this Greek debacle has set-up the pre-conditions for complete takeover a few years ahead of schedule. Thus, with the recent Economic Recession even mighty Berlin is unprepared at this time for the size of the cost of becoming supreme leader of the EU.
It remains to be seen if Berlin will gamble all on a dash for hegemony now and take hold of the purse-strings of EUrope in the hope of little or no opposition. Or, will it step back from the brink and choose to let Greece go its own way in order to maintain the pretence of 'ever closer union' with only 1 Nation sacrificed in the process.
The long or short throw of the dice? Its a quandry for Berlin: Past throws don't seem to have brought about a win-win result.
Place your bets ladies & gentlemen: They're about to spin the wheel again of Europe's fortune & future!
As for poor, also-ran Paris - - pipsqueak Sarkozy must be at the end of his tether - - he can foresee his French Presidency overseeing the handover of the reigns of Government of EUrope to Berlin!
Afterall, if Paris could have saved the Greek-EUrozone-EU economic day it would have stepped in by now. Instead, everything I have been saying about the weaknesses of the France Economy are there for all to achnowledge - - Paris can't even spare an old Franc to aid the Greeks - - it is Berlin that is calling all the Banker shots.
Now that's definitely not what any France Statesman wants to be remembered for: The President who gave the keys to EUropean 'ever closer union' to Germany. It was never supposed to happen that way, but as ever, the ambitions of France's leadership neglected the RealPolitik and sooner or later Paris and much of EUrope will meet their new paymaster-in-chief.
If anyone doubts the decisive switch from Paris to Berlin as the final arbiter of authority, power & largesse just take a look at the number of visits toadie Barroso has made to Germany compared to France in the last 6 months. It is running at 2 to 1 in favour of Berlin whereas only a 12 month ago just before the EUropean Elections Barroso practically had a bunk-bed at the Elysee Palace!
The distinguished EU Commission President didn't get to be the fawning lickspittle that he is without an inately sensitive nose for where the real power-base is in the EU.
Congratulations EUrope: Yet again, a masterstroke of ineptitude that puts it in 1914 or 1939, but fortunately for all concerned without the bloodshed of yesteryears!
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
Quietoaktree,
NPR (National Public Radio to others)is exceptional.
Marcus,
May I suggest that you tune into it periodically? Weekend edition should be on tomorrow morning from 8 to 10 am EST.
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"Incidentally could Homer tell us which part of America was attacked or indeed invaded by Afghanistan?"
Magie McGuire, have you been living in a cave since before September 11, 2001? And here I thought Neanderthals were believed to have died out tens of thousands of years ago. Do paleontologists know about you?
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@ MarcusAureliusII
"Yes but your ignorance is of no consequence to me. Funny how the EU wants to be seen as one large superstate when that puffs it up...It's got a larger GDP than the US but as individual nations when that puffs it up....Germany is the world's number one exporter. Well three of its four largest customers are in the EU and when they go down, Germany will go down with it."
I only see some big IF`s. If my father was a millionaire....
The EU started out in 1952 (ECSC) and is slowly growing.
And even after the Treaty of Lisbon there is no shared EU-constitution.
Consequently, there is no "superstate" in sight, as most member-states have no interest in this.
Supranational law is the exception, not the norm.
"There are no Germans fighting in Afghanistan or anywhere else. They will not fight, they're just there to be "on holiday" as you Brits call it. They won't fight for anyone but themselves...if that. Maybe it's better that way. It might scare a lot of French, Polish, and Russians i"
Germans are not fighting? So that´s why during the last weeks there were half a dozen German soldiers killed, now I get it.
You have to understand that the German constitution does not allow German military to engage in wars of aggression.
Until recently, politicians didn`t even use the word "war".
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One of the moderators didn't like my prognostication for the possible future of a certain oil company and its executives whose drilling platform blew up and caused a tiny little oil spill that could go from Texas to Florida wiping out the entire Gulf Coast of the United States. Now this certain oil company has a very bad track record for safety in the US with many serious violations, accidents, and deaths to its name. On the off chance that it angers the moderators who may have stock in it I won't say its name specifically but here's a hint, it starts with British and ends with Petroleum. If you guess it, don't say it in your posting or you might be censored by the KGBBC like mine was.
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Drugster Man;
"I only see some big IF`s."
If I owned a drug store
Yada heeda heeda heeda heeda hum....,
All day long I'd bidda bidda bum
If I was a drugstore man....
You can sing the rest of the lyrics yourself. If you don't know them, look them up in "A Bassist in the Basement."
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Ihop;
May I suggest that you visit your local IHOP periodically....tomorrow morning from 8 to 10 am EST would be good.
IHOP (International House of Pancakes to others.) You can easily spot them by their blue roofs.
Ihop, this IHOP's for you!
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2010/04/30/ihop_the_gluttony_race_intensifies/
If the link gets broken, after www. paste the following into the URL box;
boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2010/04/30/ihop_the_gluttony_race_intensifies/
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Good Germans give money, Bad Germans act like every other country.
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I hadn't even known Germany was being blamed in any way. I've not been paying much attention to this. I do recall listening to the radio once and hearing that Germany suggested Greek sell off some of its islands to pay its debt and thinking, "That makes a lot of sense" followed shortly by "Pity this suggestion is too sensible to be implemented by politicians and public fervour."
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#189 Vassilis
You have a good point , Germany should leave the EU . I suspect they might be closely followed by Britain , and Holland now becoming increasingly eurosceptic . These countries are the 3 biggest contributors to the EU . Without their funding I guess the EU would be finished anyway .
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The only country that can end the E.U. by leaving it at this point is Germany. Everyone else can leave but would not end the E.U. by doing so.
This is what Germany would have to consider if it contemplated leaving the E.U.
a.) the Euro. Germany would have to decide whether or not it wanted to carry on using the Euro outside the E.U. It would not be the first time a sovereign nation used a foreign currency. Bosnia used the Deutschmark until the inception of the Euro and the Polish Sloty was tied to the U.S. Dollar and the Deutschmark.
b.) If Germany left the E.U. AND adopted a new currency, then it would have to pay the for a full-blown currency reform. The new currency would likely be quite strong from the get-go, but the German economy, which relies as heavily as no other economy, on exports, would then have to pay for currency exchanges if it is to carry on exporting goods to other European nations.
c.) Germany INSIDE the Euro and OUTSIDE the E.U. would have to observe E.U. rules, without having a say in it, similar to Norway or Switzerland. As Germany's exit from the E.U. would set into motion the devolution of the E.U. this would likely be a period of 5-10 years.
d.) A devolution of the European Union would make a devolution of NATO in Europe more likely, too. But here, it is important to remember one thing. America is to NATO what Germany is to the E.U. Any country can leave NATO without ending NATO. But if the U.S. leaves, it's all over. But a devolution of the E.U. would trigger a number of countries in Europe seeking to re-asserting their national interests and leaving NATO, effectively ending NATO's undisputed hegemony in Europe. A handful of nations would look to Russia for strategic cooperation (possibly Greece, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Serbia and Belarus) while others might form new alliances (depending on what kind of a governments are in charge at the time, possibly France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Italy) while other would desire to stain in an alliance with the U.S. (Poland, the Czech Republic, Germany, Slovakia, the Baltic States, the Sc,andinavian countries, Hungary, Romania, Turkey, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Austria, the Netherlands, etc...). Russia's area of influence would move eastwards. There would be economic stagnation or decline in Greece, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Serbia and Belarus and potential stagnation or slow and sporadic growth in the rest of Europe.
I think with that in mind I can see why German do not find the option of ending the E.U. very attractive at the moment.
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Correction of my previous post (I am going to ignore typos as usual :) )
I said: "Russia's influence would move eastward". Of course, it would move westward.
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#134 Quietoaktree
All the members of the EU are nation states ; I think there is little likelyhood that there will ever be a change .
At the time of Maastricht John Major tried to encourage the EU to develop along the lines of a Commonwealth of Nation States . I have written this in previous posts . John Major also proposed expansion of the number of member states , perhaps with that in mind .
The present number is already far too many combine in a single federal state . Never mind Britain , countries like Poland and the Czech republic are never going to give up their new found freedom and sovereign state .
The EU should change course , become a Commonwealth of Nation States .
They could sell off that massive office block in Brussels , the Parliament Tower of Babel and the Court of Justice .
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OK, Miss Howard
Not to pick on you...
This is the truth ....once and for all....
(hopefully)
Afghanistan was Taliban run (yes initially paid for by Americans)
But this Taliban run Afghanistan let Al-Queda and terrorists from Saudi Arabia have a safe haven in their country. And Osama Bin Laden and his friendses planned with many different methods, training in America, taking plane flying classes on how to fly into buildings, etc.
They attacked us(a) on 9/11, way back then, before you were born, and creatively flying passenger laden airplanes into the Twin Towers killing 3000 people and they also cleverly crashed a passenger laden plane (those passengers always filling up airplanes so greedily) into the Pentagon.
America was at War (with whom?)
Well, Taliban Afghanistan was harboring the terrorists (who were so proud they told the world they had done this...so proudly) responsible for the atrocities.
So, we decided to invade Afghanistan and get rid of the Taliban. But, after success there, G.W. Bush then decided "Im evil" (not far off the mark) and why not just use this as pretext to attack Iraq?
So, now people (with extremely MTV shortened attention spans--"whats the pc thing your supposed to say today?") equate the Afghanistan invasion with Iraq invasion. And now Obama has to deal with this mess which was never properly ended in Afghanistan.
So that is the story of "Why America Invaded Afghanistan,"
the story of an innocent country caught in the crossfire"
:O))))
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chris wrote:
"There would be economic stagnation or decline in Greece, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Serbia and Belarus and potential stagnation or slow and sporadic growth in the rest of Europe."
You can imagine the shock of such a spectacle, chris
.
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Also, it is becoming apparent that Germany And Greece are the victims here.
France and other very quiet neighboring countries are letting Germany take all the risks and lend,
While Greece takes the bulk of the pain (with Spain, Italy, Portugal, looking on saying "hmmmm keep quiet and dont ask for money ...yet)
And therefore Ashkar's statement, above, shows just how nice Germans actually are and how Greece is actually the unfortunate victim of who knows? (France, and neighboring countries?)
France is being very quiet which is really very very suspicious while its soulmate Germany is taking all the blame for going so slow...now that "French Gloroire" has faded from the picture,
France is saying Go Germany Go and doing not much itself.:)
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"there is no "superstate" in sight" (DurstigerMann, 201)
In many respects the superstate is already here. The EU has a constitution, a parliament, a president, a diplomatic service, a currency, a flag and an anthem - all trappings of a nation state. In many people's minds (for example in discussion about the Greek crisis) the EU member states have the same relationship to the EU as the 50 American states have to the USA. And no EU member state is allowed to have capital punishment - in that respect (and there may be others) the EU is a more integrated unit than the USA.
"September 11, 2001" (MarcusAureliusII, 200)
Who was responsible for the September 11 attacks? That's a huge subject in its own right. Many people, including many of your compatriots, don't necessarily buy the story about a bunch of terrorists armed with box-cutters.
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@quietoaktree
@DurstigerMann
I am amazed at your comments on my comment. My comments are logical and based on facts and have no arrogance. Merkel is criticised all over the world and in the serious German press (as at least my German friend are telling me, Spiegel I think they mentioned etc.). If Greece defaults will have to leave the Euro humiliated. If Germany leaves the Euro disgusted by the irresponsible behaviour of Greeks and others, if she really has no gains from Euro, if she only pays, it should be good news for Germany, shouldn't be? What's your problem? It can then be joined by other serious and law-abiding nations such as The Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland to a union that makes sense to your eyes at least. Again, do you think that this makes no sense?
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Reading a number of the posts in this debate I get the impression that
1. Somebody Else imposed a government on Greece
2. Somebody Else forced Greece to borrow money for consumption and projects wasted
3. Somebody Else forced Greece into the Euro zone
4. Somebody Else cooked the books
Who is Somebody Else?
A question to those who know so little of national and international economy as to suggest a default on Greece's debt: Are you good at fighting over garbage bins to get the little food left in them?
Argentina defaulted on its debts in 2001.
I was there.
I saw what happened.
No austerity measure will ever reach that level.
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#213. At 10:03am on 01 May 2010, David
you wrote: "France is saying Go Germany Go and doing not much itself."
Well, that is not quite right. As I have stated a number of times, France is offering Greece a credit of 6,x billion Euros, and already now France has made the necessary legal preparations.
In accordance with her nature chancellor Merkel has moved slowly, but notice: we have not heard a word of criticism from pres. Sarkozy. Other countries are quiet too, not least The Netherlands and Finland. Juncker in Luxembourg is also quiet. The reason is that these countries to a large extent approve the German approach in the matter, as do many citizens in the EU actually, simply because people don't understand, why they should pay for chaotic economic conditions in Greece.
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@David
My general position is that of course Greek governments behaved irresponsibly and criminally, I understand fully the German position and I sympathise with the Germans that have no other option than to help Greece. I understand their angst. However, if we step aside and think of the people of Greece, Germany and other countries, we are all victims here, all of us. We are victims of irreponsible politicians which have left the banking sector unchecked to make monstruous products and create a huge crisis, we are victims of super-rich and corporate international companies which take advantage of ridiculous wages in Asia to make huge profits, we are victims of EU politicians and bureaucrats for creating a common currency without the proper checks on irresponsible governments. We are victims because we were not told that the Euro cannot really work without some sort of political and fiscal unification. It is ridiculous that problems in a mere 3% of Eurozone can create such havoc. We are victims because our governements conduct unwinable wars and innocent people from all sides are killed. Even if one does not agree with all of the above, most people will agree with most. We (the simple people) are the victims of gamblers, speculators, politicians, super-rich oligarchs. And we call this thing democracy! It is not!
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Sitting here on my balcony in Greece and listening to the May Day lefty slogans, they really have no solutions to offer, only demands, as always.
All you can here is OXI, NO to this, NO to that...
Everyday is OXI-Day in Greece.
(OXI-Day is celebrated throughout Greece AND Cyprus on October 28 each year, to commemorate Greek Prime Minister Ioannis Metaxas's rejection of the ultimatum made by Italian dictator Mussolini on October 28, 1940)
Let's not forget in all this discussion about Greece and Germany that the Greek PM travelled throughout Europe, repeating his slogan that he did not come to ask for money.
At the same time...
Let's not forget that the Greek PM brought in the IMF.
He blackmailed Brussels by saying "if you don't cash out, I can always ask the IMF", knowing that Brussels, Paris and Frankfurt would hate it.
Only Merkel found the idea appealing, knowing that Brussels would be too soft with Athens regarding any fiscal adjustments.
Let's not forget that whenever the Greek Finance Minister opened his mouth, the spread for Greeks bonds went up... I really would like to see him loosing his shirt.
So the Greek government has only to blame itself for all these delays and costs.
Now we have a Greek PM, with a loaded gun on the table, but completely powerless.
Perhaps Giorgos should send to the European front his school kids that parade every year, armed with knives, so proudly in their uniforms on Independence and OXI Day (No-Day)
Nik
this yearly USSR-style of Greece's military power should also be enough to keep the Albanians and Kosovars out of your country.
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The failure of many contributors (on both sides of the pond) to grasp the vision of the EU and the Euro with respect to Europe´s long bloody history is hardly heartening.
JFK´s vision to land on the Moon could have been equally degraded as an experiment and after the tragic accidents have been criticized a continuing failing experiment (only used as an example).
The vision of a Europe without war and the attempt to give Europeans no financial incentive for waring each other is of no lesser significance. The standard of living in most of the EU and Euro countries far exceed our American experiment with Ayn Rand Capitalism. Our Country is (using any standard ) in ruins. The failure of some contributors to recognize this axiom does not flatter their knowledge of the world.
Only yesterday, a usually ´ intellectual ´ American discussion radio program ended with the comment ` -- and that WE are having this discussion proves how great our country (America ) is ´ Obviously they are unaware of this blog. The Dumbing Down of Americans (and some Brits) is a continual process in most of our media.
For the last 3 days the volatility of the international stock markets has returned and some here with self-professed economic wisdom are not in panic ? It can be safely said that after days of discussion on this blog,
You still do not understand the wider problem.
The idiocy of crying about a low Remimbi is contrasted with glee at a falling Euro ???
Is this ´ INTELLIGENCE ´ at its best ?
We have millions of Americans unemployed and destitute and some you are childishly (or treacherously ) willing to accept more, ONLY to prove that your contribution on THIS and similar blogs are correct ???
Would you accept $1=€1 and be willing to accept the consequences for America ????
Again, be careful what you wish.
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Re "there is no official state religion in Germany and church and state are kept strictly separated."
Not exactly true: unless you state officialy (and in writing) that you are NOT Protestant or Catholic the federal state (BRD) collects from you a mandatory tax for an upkeep of those two religions.
[Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, etc. are excluded. ]
Now, how does that square with a claim of a strict separation of church and German, officially secular, state?
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#210 Haulmek
I hope you are not attempting to use the ´British´Commonwealth as a positive example ?
Please explain.
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Re #209
Chris Camp corrects: I said: "Russia's influence would move eastward". Of course, it would move westward.
Those Greeks who believe their country should ally itself with Russia, because that country would certainly help them, could do worse than check how Moscow helped Russia's historical close ally and friend in Europe - SERBIA, when push came to shove.[Balkan War]
P.S. At the rate its economy is plummeting Russia can hardly help herself.
And her dilapidated conventional forces are good enough for attacking a midget like Georgia, but not anybody else.
[Some people seem not to have noticed that militarily mighty USSR is no more; it failed miserably and collapsed over 20 years ago.]
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America has no stake in the future of Europe. And a good thing too because Europe has no future. The worst thing America can do to Europe and the best thing it can do for itself is to walk away. And in its current state it may have no choice except to do just that before long. America's European experiment that has lasted nearly a century starting with Woodrow Wilson has been a dismal failure. President Washington warned that it would be over a century before Wilson and of course he was right. President Obama, it's time for our people to pack up and come home. Instead of defending Europe from its own ghosts and other goblins we need them here to rebuild our own country.
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Re #208
"America is to NATO what Germany is to the E.U. Any country can leave NATO without ending NATO. But if the U.S. leaves, it's all over."
More and more American voters think that U.S. should leave NATO, if for no other reason than because 65 years since its liberation Europe should be able to fend for itself militarily.
Bilateral, etc. 'coalitions of the willing' (on the order of NORAD and former ANZUS) are more than enough for America, particularly since her long term interests are more&more trans-Pacific, and not trans-Atlantic.
And that we could save a lot of dough by closing dozens of U.S. military bases in "Old Europe".
Which certainly don't do much to protect American continent.
Although they sure create thousands of civilian jobs in W. Europe.
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#221 powermeerkat
I have heard the the Nazis introduced the law, probably in an attempt to get the Churches on their side and under control. Millions have left the Churches in protest and even more since the world wide Pedophile scandals.
The Nazis also brought out anti-smoking laws forbidding smoking in restaurants, offices and public meeting places. Copies of the posters are on the internet.
The smoker´s appear to have historical evidence for their ´Nazi anti-smoking ´ claims.
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Re "European solidarity"
How come we don't hear what tangible financial assistance to Greece is offered by such countries like Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden or UK?
Perhaps Gavin could investigate?
Inquiring minds want to know.
P.S. Have I mentioned Cyprus and Malta?
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So far the 1st May demonstrations (this is hapenning every year anyway in Greece) are not massive with some occasional incidents (yes I saw BBC videos of clashes, for Greek standards this is null, much more have happened in recent years). I am not saying that there won't be much worse in the coming days and perhaps years. But for the time being people are just numb and think that what is hapenning is inevitable. If economy collapses though, people will take massive action. I only hope the measure are finetuned so that they do not create such collapse.
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Mathiasen
Re #217
"..France is offering a credit.. 6 billion.."
Well, that's not strictly true. When we examine the details of the proposal it seems the 'offer' is with harsh strings attached that put all the onus on Greece (& indirectly, its reliant on Germany).
France is in no economic position to offer anything like that sort of Financial hand-out.
France is stating that 'if' conditions are met (in Greece) and 'if' Germany plays its part then France will step-in too.
Plus, of course, this offer must be seen as Paris-Berlin acting jointly to preserve the increasingly fig-leaf image of France as an economic authority within the EU and as part of the overall EU-Brussels' effort to rescue Greece & the EUro-zone by bending or breaking every Fiscal rule in their book and not being seen to do so.
Thus, the greater part of the France 6 billion is in fact monies from Germany that Chancellor Merkel can deny to the German Citizens is actually heading for Greece; so, Pres Sarkozy is protected from the harsh glare of reality in which France is exposed like the rest of EUrope inc. the UK, as unable to afford their own 'rescues' without dire consequences never mind additional Financial aid to others in the 27.
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Re #211...
"Afghanistan was Taliban run (yes initially paid for by Americans)"
No it was not. I guess you confuse Afghan Mujaheddin Resistance with a fanatical Islamist Pashtun outfit born in Pakistani madrassas (with a little help o ISI) in 1994, long after Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, and when U.S. has entirely lost an interest in that country.
[horror vacui]
BTW. During the Soviet-Afghan War there was no al-Qaida either,
and Osama ibn Laden was a veritable nobody.
[merely one of many anonymous Saudi volunteers]
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#224 MarcusAurellius
My contribution #220 was not directed at you specifically.
But at least you finally admit our country is in ruins in a funny sort of roundabout way.
Your continual Obama flip-flops indicates argument instability.
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Re "EU Constitution" (forget its 'president' and a 'foreign mininster')
No EU does NOT have a Constitution.
This lemmon has been rejected by millions of EU voters.
So what you have now, at least officially, is merely a Lisbon Treaty.
[which, Mr. Barroso has authoritatively assured us, it NOT a constitution. :)]
BTW. What's EU's foreign, let alone defense policy?
Anybody knows?
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Re #219 oeichler wrote:
"this yearly USSR-style of Greece's military power should also be enough to keep the Albanians and Kosovars out of your country."
Yeah, but will it protect Greece from an invasion of those pesky and belligerent Madedonians from mighty FYROM?
That is a question.
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232. At 12:43pm on 01 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
" ...
BTW. What's EU's foreign, let alone defense policy?"
EUpris: A crock of.
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#225 Powermeerkat
Again be careful what you wish.
You will of course take the Nuclear warheads with you when you leave ´Old Europe ´?
Bush´s idea of putting a new missile interceptor system into ´New Europe ´ hardly suggests a `We don´t need you´ American nationalism.
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232. At 12:43pm on 01 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"...
So what you have now, at least officially, is merely a Lisbon Treaty.
[which, Mr. Barroso has authoritatively assured us, it NOT a constitution. :)] ..."
EUpris: Barroso has no authority. Experience has shown that it is fair to assume that anybody near the top of the "EU"-DungHeap is a liar.
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David
Re #211
Very largely agree with your explanation to M.Howard about Afghanistan except one key issue.
Taliban fought a Civil War circa 1993-96 to conquer the various War Lords & supposed Kabul Government. During that period Taliban were never backed by the USA. Though after the Russian retreat Afghanistan was awash with American, Czech, French, British, Russian weapons that could be utilised by all sides in the struggle for control of the country.
Lots of diverse Afghan forces inc. Taliban had been supported & equipped by the USA during the long, complex & bloody (for all sides) insurgent campaign and eventual ousting of the occupying Soviet Union forces. However, the Taliban were just one of several and following Russia's defeat the Taliban & USA fell-out: The USA Afghan policy during the 2 term Clinton administration went so far as to attempt re-arming anti-Taliban groups as well as the beginnings of recognition of the threat from Islamic Fundamentalists within the Taliban ranks.
Even earlier, during Bush Snr Presidency, one notable exception in the Afghans' anti-USSR conflict & aftermath civil strife which those blinded by vitriol toward the USA in general and/or Dubya Bush etc. always seem to overlook is that the Al Queda Muslim Fundamentalist group categorically refused to fight under direction from the US Special Forces & CIA Agents in-place. As early as 1989-90 the earliest cadre of Al Queda was purchasing weapons/equipment from all sorts of sources inc. US operatives, but its Fundamentalist Islamic philosophy meant it would not take orders from the USA.
It was in the same period Al Queda began developing closer ties with the Taliban tribal leaders. One can only assume over time Saudi, Bin Laden, very familiar with USA methods & intentions (& as with his opposition to 'west' armed forces in Saudi for the Kuweit Campaign he believed it was oppressive to Islam) recognised there was an opportunity for a wholesale incursion into Afghanistan using the Kabul installed Taliban regime as cover for its own more 'worldly' terrorist activities.
These activities seem to have escaped M.Howard's attention - - inc. blowing up US & other 'west' targets in places as far apart as Kenya, Turkey, Pakistan etc. before the 11th Sept, 2001 Twin Towers air-strike on mainland USA. - - most of the terrorists in all those attacks were of Saudi origin, but had received their orders & inspiration from Al Queda in Taliban ruled Afghanistan.
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The EU was sold to Europeans as being in their mutual self interest. What it evoloved into and what its creators actually had in mind in fact was in no one's self interest except their own which was to create a superstate that would be a political and economic presence on the world stage from a bunch of has-been washed up economies that had seen better days decades and centruries earlier when piratical imperial empires ruled the world. Now that the first sign of real trouble presents itself, there is a sharp conflict between the self interest of the richer nations like Germany and the interests of the hidden agenda of those who invented this monstrosity like Germany. Torn between what is best for its own people and best for the European project its leader doesn't know which way to turn. Either direction reveals betrayal of the other one because they clearly no longer coincide. All that's left do do now is to play the blame game to the sounds of shouting accusations and the gnashing of teeth. Germany's best bet is probably to accept that the "European experiment" has failed and cut its losses substantial as they are. Attemps to delay the inevitable finale will only throw more good money after bad and in the end Germany's political leadership will pay an even more terrible price at the polls.
To blame Germany if it doesn't bail anyone out is to deny it the right to act in its own self interest but to demand instead that it fall on its sword to somehow rescue a preposterous supposition that was clearly hopeless from the outset. What possible reason other than to save that miserable farce could justify Germany bailing out Greece or anyone else? Looking to the future it will be hard enough for Germany to bail itself out of what is heading its way.
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227. At 12:27pm on 01 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
" ...
How come we don't hear what tangible financial assistance to Greece is offered by such countries like Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden or UK?
Perhaps Gavin could investigate?
Inquiring minds want to know.
P.S. Have I mentioned Cyprus and Malta?"
EUpris: I have seen it mentioned somewhere here. As I remember, Malta is making a contribution.
The UK is not part of the Eurozone. I hope we are not contributing via the Eurozone-rubbish or via the "EU"-rubbish.
Experience shows that sending money through the "EU" results in loads of it being wasted. If the UK wants to help Greece (I do!) then we should do it in a more direct way.
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How come Jose Barroso is so awfully quiet about a predicament of his native country he was once a leader of - Portugal?
[not that Mr. Zapatero is very outspoken re predicament of Spain]
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#191 margaret howard
# 221. powermeerkat
The expression “official state religion” is somewhat dizzy. Only this week we have had a case concerning crucifixes in classrooms that shows that Christianity is at least the unofficial state religion in Germany.
The picture is unclear - a lot more unclear than in France for instance, and according to the editorial of Die Zeit this week it is good that the picture is unclear.
§227 powermeerkat
You write a lot of rubbish about Europe. Denmark and Sweden are not members of the Euro zone. Therefore, they are not involved in the bail-out of Greece with money. Italy contributes the third largest credit to Greece after France and Germany. Apart from that no one here takes Berlusconi seriously, in particular not chancellor Merkel.
Get informed and see the list of EU creditors on ARD.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
220. At 11:27am on 01 May 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"The failure of many contributors (on both sides of the pond) to grasp the vision of the EU and the Euro with respect to Europe´s long bloody history is hardly heartening.
...
The vision of a Europe without war and the attempt to give Europeans no financial incentive for waring each other is of no lesser significance. The standard of living in most of the EU and Euro countries far exceed our American experiment with Ayn Rand Capitalism. Our Country is (using any standard ) in ruins. The failure of some contributors to recognize this axiom does not flatter their knowledge of the world.
... The Dumbing Down of Americans (and some Brits) is a continual process in most of our media. .."
EUpris: On this blog and elsewhere there is a constant stream of claims from those who support the "EU" that those who oppose it are in some way mentally deficient. You are just the latest. Your posts indicate that you have an unjustified sense of your own intellectual/mental superiority.
I assume that you include me amongst those who are dumb. Please tell me directly if that is or is not the case. I have been called stupid before and then been shown to be right. (Not every time.) So I can handle it.
As regards the bit about the "EU" in some way bringing peace to Europe: We went through that in great detail before I noticed your presence here. I dispute that claim but I cannot be bothered to go through it yet again.
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acorn for a brain;
"You will of course take the Nuclear warheads with you when you leave ´Old Europe ´?
Bush´s idea of putting a new missile interceptor system into ´New Europe ´ hardly suggests a `We don´t need you´ American nationalism."
The purpose of the NPT was to allow nations to develop peaceful nuclear technology without the suspicion that they are also developing nuclear weapons that are a threat to others. In the case of Iran and North Korea it hasn't worked. The alternative is a pre-emptive strike to allay the fear that nations which are a threat will acquire the power to wreck havoc on others including ourselves. The missiles in Europe were intended as a way to circumvent what is the clear and only acceptable response to the challenge Iran presents, the prospect of becoming a nuclear power with ICBMs capabile of reaching the US. It is an abrogation of the oath of office and the clear responsibility of the President of the United States as Commander-in-Chief whether it was Clinton, Bush, or Obama to fail to recognize the threat and eliminate it effectiely once and for all. This responsibility takes precedence over all other considerations whether they are treaties with foreign countries, or public opinion at home or around the world. The threat is unacceptable and so is the response to it so far. The consequences for us if that doesn't change will be dire, the failure to avert it the same lesson the world should have learned from allowing the rise of Hitler and Nazi Germany leading to WWII.
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Re # #235
I was specifically referring to U.S. bases in OLD Europe, to use Rummy's parlance. Not to some potential small ABM (conventional) istallations in countries such as Romania or Bulgaria.
[with some M3s appearing perhaps also on future Polish Aegis frigates]
BTW. Thanks to Rumsfeld's vision we (U.S.) are well advanced on the road to long distance power projection (superfast long-range transport planes, and hypersonic UAV bombers are going to become a reality in a near future)
And where our currently most important deterrent (SLBM-boomers) is located at any given time is known only to those subs' "drivers" and perhaps also to God. :)
And re nuclear weapons...
No, we most certainly don't need any nukes in EU countries. (France and UK have their own if a dire need for their use ever arises).
In case you haven't noticed, we are actually in a process of yet another major reduction of our nuclear arsenal: roughly by one third.
For nukes won't be our future weapon of choice.
Any member of newly created U.S. CYBERCOMMAND will tell you that. ;)
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Since Greece has lied about the factual reality of its economy and finances to the EU and its own citizens since accession nearly thirty years ago on January 1, 1981 and before, why should any potential creditor believe that it would be telling the truth about any promises of future reforms it makes now? It is clear that even if it wanted to, domestic political pressure in Greece won't allow it. Lending money to Greece is tantamount to throwing it down a rathole. Small wonder Germans are reluctant to do that.
And small wonder that other Europeans criticize Germany for it. The dredging up of Germany's dark Nazi past proves that racism and ethnic hatred is alive and well in Europe because nearly every German alive today was not alive yet during that period. In the European mind, hatred for "the others" lives on indefinitely, it has a life of its own that transcends human mortality. It is one of the cultural characteristics they share in common.
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For your information, Cyprus parliament has already approved its share of the burden to Greece, I think 60 million (I may be wrong on the exact amount. I have no information if they discussed to allocate fewer points to the Eurovision competition this time as punishment :-)).
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227. At 12:27pm on 01 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Re "European solidarity"
How come we don't hear what tangible financial assistance to Greece is offered by such countries like Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden or UK? ..."
EUpris: A longish article in the excellent Austria Newspaper, Wiener Kurier indicates that Austria is making a substantial contribution. As I understand it, I am not allowed to post a link because it is not in English.
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#238 MarcusAurellius
Robin lustig´s blog. Your contribution #9 3.53 am, 30 Apr. 2009.
`On foreign policy, Obama gets an F. If there is something lower like F minus, he gets that. He has compromised the security of the United States and he acts anything but the leader of what is still the richest and most powerful nation in the world and in all history. He is truly repulsive, an utterly incompetent neophyte who is not prepared to be a Senator let alone a President.´ etc. etc.
Your various additional comments ´The Jewish American lobby will put him in his place´ etc.etc. indeed suggest argument instability as a minimum but not yet treachery as a maximum.
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Marcus,
Not to pick at your points that the EU was planned all along as a challenger to America, but,
I think, the original thinkers and planners just thought of a trade agreement that would keep the Germans and French peoples (nations) and any other powers on the continent (cold war planning didn't plan for the turn of Russia to capitalism ..one would think) dependent enough on each other to create a wealthy self sufficient (as in non dependent) European trade bloc.
But, I think that is all they intended. One (IMO) should just go with the flow at the moment and take opportunity when it knocks.
For instance, Greece, could try to turn Chicken S*&$ into Chicken Salad (often easily done building up anew is easier than refurbishment I've read) Anything further than ummm... that is out of my depth ... as far as ideas go....pipelines, shipping, being a kind of Switzerland/Sweden but warm and inviting...
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Malta supports Greece with a credit of 0,028 billion Euros or 0,09 per cent of the credit package. Cyprus supports with 0,20 billion Euros. Germany's share is 27,92 percent.
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#243 EUprisoner
If your knowledge about this world comes mainly from the British press then your EU knowledge will be limited and ´Dumbed Down ´ When I visited Britain, news concerning Europe was practically non-existent.
I was only referring in general with my contribution, however later it may become more specific.
The equating `Dumbing Down ´ with mental deficiency was YOUR suggestion !
#244 MarcurAurellius
With those eloquent arguments there appears to be a logical disconnect.
Europe ( Germany in particular) is attempting to prevent more wars in Europe and you are continually against the Vision of such a Europe ???
Your argument should be with #243 EUprisoner . He brought into the discussion the idea of mental deficiency --
not me !
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acorn for a brain;
I stick by what he said which you say I posted a year ago on Robin Lustig's blog. A year later the threat of Iran has not diminished or its increase been slowed by even one scintilla by anything the Obama administration has done. It appears that Obama is waiting for Iran to actually attack the US with a nuclear weapon possibly smuggled in by one of its terrorist subsidiaries like Hezbollah before he reacts. So far all we hear is talk of more sanctions which nobody expects will work. If this happens, it is my guess that the American government under constitutional law will come to an end. The open society with a representative democracy will have proven a failure. In a contest between the survival of the Constitution and the survival of the Republic the Republic will win every time because without the Republic there will be no Consitution anyway. In the aftermath, whoever takes over the reins of power will ask the military what must be done to prevent this from ever happening again. The answer will be a nightmare for the entire world as the full force of the American military will be brought to bear without restraint on every enemy real and imagined. Meanwhile anyone here in the US who is even suspected of being a collaborator or sympathetic to the enemy which will be perceived as the entire Islamic world will be the object of the cruelest and most barbaric of reprisals by the rest of the population. The government will be powerless to stop it and may even be indifferent to it. Civil society will likely break down completely. America really could become a fascist state, not the one those who attack it now accuse it of but the real thing. Nobody anywhere will be safe from it. I'd give Obama and his predecessors lower than F minus if that were possible. They have completely failed their single most important responsibility.
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I like Obama. And his new realistic idealism, from Clinton's new Democrat vision which is probably where Obama is going.
But this idea that he is the next FDR is unlikely.
And, I challenge your pessimism, Oak Tree Hill, if not your "superiority."
I do think America and Europe are not bankrupt, they both will survive just fine thank you, with their art work still free and their speech still free, but maybe not ethically cleansed and pure as you would like.
but now that the AIDS epidemic is over (for Gays), maybe Gays will have a renaissance and give back to the "world of Art" what IT has been deprived of... from the dark days--the death of a generation of gay artists all born during my generation and before my birth. Maybe I was ordinary so didn't die....I just lived to tell the tale...the mourning is long over.... A memory like Watergate and Nixon.
See, Quiet Oak Tree, intelligence isn't in your genes, its in your living long and in being challenged...and ordinary Americans I've learned are just as smart as anyone.
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#247 MarcusAurellius
You have been bringing it up at ever opportunity !!!
Please go to #253.
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242 was censored by the KGBBC because they didn't like a detailed explanation of why the US should walk away from Europe even if it means Europeans will revert to their seemingly endless history of wars with each other. Nor did they like that I explained why Europeans are irrational if they need a tyrannical central authority like the EU to prevent war. That justification which may Europeans use to apologize for it alone is enough to prove that what I said about Europe is true. Or perhaps they didn't like my comparison between the long history of ethnic and racial conflict in Europe with those in Africa which America avoids getting involved in for good reasons. Or the conclusion that we should not be involved in Europe for exactly the same reasons. Whatver the cuase of referring posts to moderators, the fact that they stay unmoderated until they are far back in the queue and will not likely be read even if they are found not to break the house rules is equivalent to censorship.
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MAII wrote: "Germany's best bet is probably to accept that the "European experiment" has failed and cut its losses substantial as they are."
Probably.
However you are assuming that cool minds would prevail and rational critera would be applied.
Not necessarily.
You have to consider how much prestige and continental pride is at stake.
Abandon euro?
Yes it would make sense from the strictly economic point of view.
Howewer, no matter how much overwhelming majority of Germans yearn after their beloved D-Mark, there are many political leaders, both from CDU/CSU/FDP and SPD/Gruens,etc., who heavily invested (politically) in a success of United Europe and its supranational currency.
Ejecting euro would mean, that not only Kohl and Merkel, but also Schroeder would have to admit they have been all terribly wrong and naive and shortsighted ("the vision thing").
[I won't have to add what such a step would say about Mitterand and Chirac, let alone Sarkozy]
That's why I think that nothing short of a mass German populus' rebellion would force current German ruling coalition to dump euro and return to D-Mark. Let alone leave EU& altogether.
And so the current 'rescue' charade will continue.
Until everything finally goes down the tube.
In Greece, in Ireland, in Italy, in Portugal, in Spain, etc.
And eventually, of course, in Germany itself.
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@MarkusAureliusII
As you can see, I didn`t quote your remarks about the EU.
But let me give you a short comment about it and what I think you should consider:
It was implemented in the aftermath of the two worst wars in history of mankind in order to prevent a next conflict, of which both happened on the European continent.
The crisis we are facing right now is nothing compared to the turmoil during the first half of the last century.
When the cold war ended and the western arch nemesis vanished, it was right to further European integration.
And even though it is not perfect and still lacks in many areas, the unification of Europe ended war in one of the most war-torn regions on this planet.
This is my belief.
"To blame Germany if it doesn't bail anyone out is to deny it the right to act in its own self interest but to demand instead that it fall on its sword to somehow rescue a preposterous supposition that was clearly hopeless from the outset. What possible reason other than to save that miserable farce could justify Germany bailing out Greece or anyone else? Looking to the future it will be hard enough for Germany to bail itself out of what is heading its way."
Could you elaborate on why you see Germany heading towards a way of crisis? Is this your prospect for most of the western world, including the USA? Or just Europe?
Or perhaps you are referring to the lack of a domestic market in Germany?
Anyway.. personally, I see the fact that most economies already rely on FIAT based systems as the biggest threat.
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Re #241 Mathaisen wrote:
"no one here takes Berlusconi seriously, in particular not chancellor Merkel."
In about two weeks we shall see how many voters in a major German Landt take Mz. Merkel seriously.
From where I sit she and her CDU/CSU/FDP coalition is in a state of paralysis, knowning fully well what a major rescue package (read: bail-out) for Greece would mean for their reelection chances.
So perhaps you could suspend comments about my 'rubbish' for those merely couple of weeks?
Thank you.
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"In the European mind, hatred for "the others" lives on indefinitely, it has a life of its own that transcends human mortality. It is one of the cultural characteristics they share in common."
*sigh* alright, alright, ALRIGHT!!!... I'll do it! I'll give you some of the attention you crave. And you know what? This time, I'll agree with you 100 percent. But isn't the above true not only of Europeans but of all of mankind?
For reference, I would quote any of your posts, or alternatively, #166.
Can someone else take over now?
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#254 MarcusAurellius
The American society has been breaking down for years and I agree that Fascism is the logical outcome as in pre-war Germany.
Give the poor masses a reasonable standard of living as Europe is trying, instead of telling them `TO EAT FLAGS´ and be proud of their poverty.
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Re #249
EU prisoner wrote:
"A longish article in the excellent Austria Newspaper, Wiener Kurier indicates that Austria is making a substantial contribution. As I understand it, I am not allowed to post a link because it is not in English."
I think you may. What is clearly not allowed is including actual QUOTES in a language other than English.
I for one, would appreciate the link; it's been donkeys years since I actually had a copy of Wiener Kurier in my hands.
[Although I haven't read L'Humanite or Morning Star for many more :)]
However, as somebody rightly pointed out earlier re alleged French 8 billion contribution a lot what is claimed is basically smoke and mirrors, with most money coming actually still from Germany.
[don't expect though chancellor Merkel to correct her claim that its not only Germans who are going to sacrifice in a big way for Greece's good. Elections are cometh :)]
To MAII re falsfying records and cooking books.
Even BBC's own journalists specializing in economic issues (read 'Stephanomics' for example) and many others suspect that the actual Greek deficit it not 12 or 13%, but more like 15% or even more.
BTW. 10% unemployment in the U.S. is as you know considered a very major problem (it's typically no more than 5%).
So what should one think about Spain, where unemployment is 20%?
And we're told Spain is in a better shape than Portugal?
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Greek newspapers report that the big moneys which left Greece went to London and are contributing in the rise of property prices.
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228. At 12:30pm on 01 May 2010, vassilis wrote:
So far the 1st May demonstrations (this is hapenning every year anyway in Greece) are not massive with some occasional incidents (yes I saw BBC videos of clashes, for Greek standards this is null, much more have happened in recent years).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vassilis man avoid declaring your political allegiances.
Once again I prove to be correct when 3 months ago I predicted here in BBC (and my message is stored) that PASOK will move to amazing cuts unseen in the last 35 years and that there will be minimal reaction since PASOK controls everything from press (at a rate of 80%) and syndicates at a rate of 60-80%).
I had clearly stated that when ND wanted to privitise OTE and DEI or take away 10-15 "tokens" we had weeks of clashes and dead people - both in 1992-93 and 2007-08.... when PASOK wanted to privitise OTE and DEI there was not even any worth mentioning strikes while now that wants to take 100-150 "tokens" the reaction is lukewarm.
I need not tell you that PASOK privitised OTE and DEI and thus PASOK will pass the anti-popular measures with amazing ease.
3 months earlier Vassilis. Here! I was arguing with people mentioning that Greeks are people who react in anti-popular measures....
What am I? A phrophet or somethign Vassilis.
Honestly. Jeffrey has to be over-turned. He is dangerous.
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@powermeerkat
'a mass German populus' rebellion'
This is something that Greeks might want to offer a helping hand. :-)
Will the package transform Greece? perhaps, and this might be good news.
However the real problem is elsewhere and it is wider:
What about the inherent problems of the Eurozone (i.e. no political and fiscal union)? I doubt if they can be confronted in a satisfactory way.
What about the dirty group of super-rich, politicians, bankers and speculators within this outrageous casino type capitalism according to which innocent hard working people in all countries are governed? they will continue doing it and calling it democracy!
So I am a pessimist. Ultimately, the global system will collapse.
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#222 Quietoaktree
That's a brilliant idea ! Why not use the British Commonwealth as an example ? !!
I suspect though that European Sovereign States would want to create a Commonwealth in their own way .
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#266 Vassillis
´Workers of the world unite !´ was NOT invented by a Greek if that is your point ?
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#267 Haulmek
My criticism of that idea would fill a book.
I have seen too many of the ex-colonies and their problems left by the UK elite, to wish it on my worst enemies.
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rE #259
"the unification of Europe ended war in one of the most war-torn regions on this planet. This is my belief."
And you are certainly entitled to it.
However nothing can be further from the truth.
What prevented wars in Old Europe was not Common Market, or later EU, but former enemies' membership in NATO: plain and simple.
Just like membership in NATO prevented a major conflict between Greece and Turkey.
There is no common unified European defense force; there isn't even a EU-wide agreement on that outfit's foreign policy stands: e.g., re Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Russian invasion of Georgia, PRC's occupation of Tibet, Venezuela, etc.
Nay, EU members cannot even work out a unified comprehensive energy policy.
[I won't even mention fundamental profound disagreement between France and Germany regarding a role and a future of atomic energy,
or equally profound disagreement between UK and France re CAP]
Take away NATO and I suspect you pretty soon find out that not only European solidarity but even so called 'European identity' is only skin-deep.
Nope, Europe is not a melting pot; on the contrary: current quarrels, and mutual recriminations (even within tiny Belgium itself) seem to indicate to an outside observer that nationalism, jingoism, chauvinism and sometimes even plain racism are still very much alive&well in many a EU country.
Perhaps a Sharia-based European caliphate some EU citizens clamour for could become such a uniting force?
[Although even that is doubtful seeing how Shia and Sunni have been slaughtering each other since times immemorial.]
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"In many respects the superstate is already here. The EU has a constitution, blah blah blah blah - in that respect (and there may be others) the EU is a more integrated unit than the USA."
Ha Ha Ha!! Dream on. Their is a great misunderstanding about what the power of the President is in the U.S.A., it is not where the real power lies.That is why he can be booted out every 4 years.
I wonder if Germany left the E.U. would it still want to remain in NATO. The legacy of Europe's history is definitely prologue ror tomorrow.
Imagine how much money America could save. It would probably be enough to bail you guys out when WW3 begins. I could imagine Putin helping Greece. I could also imagine a couple of those unused islands being a great base or "destination" for the Russian Black Seas fleet currently stationed at Sevastopol. Putin is not the has been you guys think and Medledev isn't the patsy people think he is either. I don't think Russia wants to be dragged into the political morass the Europe will devolve into. Maybe this time, with out the influence of former Imperialists Nations who divided people up arbitrarily , like the Belgians did the the Rwandan People's (i.e., Hutu, Tutsi) and the arbitrary lines the former British Empire drew up, making for racial tensions that favored the empire, (keeping them fighting, keep them week), alliances can be formed that are more natural, based on cultural similarities. This would make a very interesting war. It's greatest benefit wold be the end of a "McDonalds" on every street corner of the world (yes I'm America) but I love ethnic diversity.
Europe needs some kind of common bond as you share a great space together. Maybe the E.U. basic lattice will provide for a new understanding and agreement to maintain peace. The premise that it was to balance American hegemony is ridiculous. I have been to Europe. I was not in a military uniform and it would be great if people could just visit other countries without these worries and we could just trade, freely, without International Companies creating crisis.
It was Goldman Sachs that helped Greece hide it's debt. I sincerely hope the E.U. or affected parties start filing lawsuits against them.
I hope America can withdraw bases from countries in order to help ourselves, and the rest of the free world, protection from the real upcoming threats. For you guys who are waiting for America's demise, forget it. America could turn inward, and since out population reflects the world's population, we have all the mind capable of doing what we need here. Americans know how to live without more than you know. Our mind pool is constantly refreshed by immigrants, the best minds of the world, coming here and becoming Americans. American is not a race of peoples. the E.U. can not emulate what America is doing because to be American is something that Europeans don't understand, except for the ones who come here, and continue their traditions, and then learn another level of cooperation that is a basic definition of what being American is about. Racial tensions obviously exists, and our country has it's problems, but what country doesn't. The basis of it is what is sound, and the fact that ad can adjust it when we need to by voting the idiots out of office when we had to. (Bush was an idiot, the whole world knows that, but Iraq may end up being a lot better for the invasion, not because Bush planned it, but maybe there is a higher force at play). When Iran gets Nuclear loaded ICBM, they will be able to reach Europe. Iran's wants to initiate their "Messiah' world end scenario, unless the Iranians get this current nut job out of office.
This kind of makes helping out Greece a little problem, which if the E.U. can't come together to help, then how will the respond to the 1st nuclear bomb attack? Will countries not wish to respond because they fear they will be attacked? Past is prologue. This problem just involves money.
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221 powermeerkat
Not exactly true: unless you state officialy (and in writing) that you are NOT Protestant or Catholic the federal state (BRD) collects from you a mandatory tax for an upkeep of those two religions.
Note the word "mandatory"; there is your answer
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vassilis reports in #264:
"Greek newspapers report that the big moneys which left Greece went to London and are contributing in the rise of property prices."
Shhh! Stop spreading the news! PHLEASE!
Otherwise folks on the order of Roman Abramovich will try to beat Greek multimillionaires to the punch ball (or a Scottish castle) and accelerate even more their real estate shopping spree.
And as a result most of others pretty won't be able to purchase even a thatched cottage in a rural area.
PS. Are there any Greek islands you know of by a chance (even tiny ones)one could buy dirt cheap these days? [special sale, foreclosure, etc.]
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Dear all,
just again a very ... influenced point of view...
Germany will never ever leave the Euro. Full Stop. For the reasons, I have pointed out above.
'a mass German populus' rebellion' is not going to happen; it happend only once, in 1989, by the eastern german people, but the world is not going to see suchlike again soon. It's simply very atypical for Germans...(1989 : wow, what a year, when Germans were completely atypical and, as a German, I thank all of the Eastern German people for this incredible deed! This made our unity!)
Personally, I think, there are two ways to go. Either, all of Euro-members agree to a full political and economical union, then, solidarity will be obligatory. Solidarity by everyone.
Second way is to say: Hehe, this was just a joke. Europe was just a joke, forget about it. Then the Euro is past, but, lads, there'll be loads of problems ahead, wouldn't even dare call them "challenges".
EU is definetly in a state, where decisions are inevitable.
You might have known from my former post, I don't see a chance other than forming a USE. We've already gone too far to turn back; it might be unpopular, but I don't see any way, as to go for complete union, we're in too deep already. Everyone.
Debatable, definetly.
But I think we're close to the final decision point, this crisis shows it clearly.
Ash
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@270 powermeerkat:
"What prevented wars in Old Europe was not Common Market, or later EU, but former enemies' membership in NATO: plain and simple.
Just like membership in NATO prevented a major conflict between Greece and Turkey.
There is no common unified European defense force; there isn't even a EU-wide agreement on that outfit's foreign policy stands: e.g., re Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Russian invasion of Georgia, PRC's occupation of Tibet, Venezuela, etc."
Of course, Nato and the cold war are a major aspect in this as well.
However, this is not just about preventing a major conflict, but about integration. A military coalition alone cannot provide sustained peace.
The European integration not only played an important role in deescalating the Aegean dispute, but also intertwined European economies to a point where conflict within the EU is economically unsustainable.
On top providing institutions for communication amongst European politicians.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion as well.
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powermeerkat;
"However you are assuming that cool minds would prevail and rational critera would be applied.
Not necessarily."
Agreed. They are not rational. And they don't have a democracy, not a real one. If they did the voters would be making this crucial choice and the leaders would be forced to do as the voters told them. That is not the way it is.
Drugstore;
"But let me give you a short comment about it and what I think you should consider:
It was implemented in the aftermath of the two worst wars in history of mankind"
No it wasn't. WWI and WWII were not the worst wars in the history of mankind, the cold war was. It was the ONLY war in which the entire human race faced not only the possibility but the certainty of complete extinction. Trillions of American dollars were spent walking the tightrope between Soviet enslavement of the world and nuclear annihilation of every man woman, and child on this planet. America has paid and will continue to pay a very heavy price for fighting that war. Think of what could have been done with all that money if Communism had never existed. Think of the millions of lives wasted in militaries on both sides that could have been far more productive. Your two miserable world wars were a pittance by comparison. The entire surface of the earth would have been made uninhabitable for thousands of years. It lasted for 46 years and the end of mankind nearly happened more than once during that time.
"The crisis we are facing right now is nothing compared to the turmoil during the first half of the last century."
The looming financial crisis facing Germany and the rest of Europe is comparable to the financial crisis that led Germany to bring the Nazis and the Italians to bring the fascists to power. And it is happenging for almost exactly the same reason. The extortion of money from Germany now to bail out the entire decrepit rotted EU economies that are collapsing is no different from the extortion the French and British imposed in the Treaty of Versailles. Only the details are different, not the effect.
"Could you elaborate on why you see Germany heading towards a way of crisis? Is this your prospect for most of the western world, including the USA? Or just Europe?
Or perhaps you are referring to the lack of a domestic market in Germany?"
First of all, much of Germany's income depends on exports. The numbers cited elsewhere show that three of Germany's four biggest customers are in the EU. Who is supplying the financing for those exports? As was pointed out by someone else and I repeated it, much of it comes from Germany itself. When the credit of those customers dries up so will the exports. The US is hardly in much better shape. Unless and until the US prints very large sums of money to an unprecedented degree to make it available for credit and to pay off old loans, business will continue to creep along, even slow to a standstill again. The US stimulus package may look good on paper for now but where it counts, in consumer confidence which is two thirds of the American economy, it still stinks. People are frightened. If they haven't lost their homes and jobs already, they are worried they will. There are a lot of unsold Mercedes and BMWs sitting on lots in America already and many more recently purchased used ones for sale by people who can't keep up with the payments or banks and dealers who have repossessed them already. Germany's export surplus may not have a bright future.
Don't be surprised if American protectionism especially in reaction to China doesn't spark a round of protectionism even if it means withdrawl from the WTO. Many Americans are very angry about policies that eported our jobs, entire industries and we want them back. Large Corporations may love free trade where they can export jobs to places where labor and life are cheap, laws and penalties non existant but America will not put up with it indefinitely when there are no more jobs here. American devaluation would mean old debt gets paid back with much cheaper dollars that buy a lot less.
Germany faces many other problems too. As the high tech leader of Europe it is not competitive with the US or even Japan. It is clearly outclassed. Its one large high tech company Siemens is not that big a deal by world standards, just another one in the crowd. Same for SAP. Europe has no Intels, no Microsofts, none of the really heavy hitters the US has. It also doesn't have the culture of fostering individual enterprise and rewarding it. It is a nightmare maze of high taxes and endless regulations, restrictions, and red tape. Were it not for massive government subsidies EADS would have gone broke long ago.
Meanwhile Germany like the rest of Europe will now have to compete with the BRICs especially China for raw materials and resources along with other competitors like America and Japan. It also faces the demographic time bomb President Obama referred to during his campaign two years ago.
According to the US Census Bureau, in the next 40 years, the US population is projected to grow by about 120 million people due largely to immigrantion and will become far less white with a much lower percentage of European ancestry. That's about 3 million a year. The opportunities this presents are staggering. Not only will the housing market recover as a consequence but entire new cities and even megalopolises will be built from where nothing but unused land exists now. They will bring with them energy and a variety of talents of every type and they and their children will be fully integrated into American society just as has always been the case. The one threat to America's long term bright future is that of a serious attack by militant Islam. That is the only thing that could derail us. And by blocking all efforts to fight it or refusing to support them wholeheartdly, Europe has made it clear it wants to take America down with it. How long before America cuts the cord and casts Europe off? I cannot think of even one reason why America needs Europe.
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acorn for a brain #262;
"#254 MarcusAurellius
The American society has been breaking down for years and I agree that Fascism is the logical outcome as in pre-war Germany."
How can you agree with something I never said. I said that America could become a fascist state in the aftermath of a nuclear attack on it by militant Islam such as by Iran. I never said it would happen otherwise and America has never been a fascist state the lies of communists and socialists notwithstanding. Most people who throw that word around carelessly don't even know what it means.
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Let's back to Mr Hewitt's meticulous observations. For example: "hard look at .. whether countries with such different cultures and economies can share monetary union"
That is the crucial. But even further: can they share european union?
To clarify the question, let's imagine few prominent characters from literature, especially from Moliere and Dickens, like Tartuffe and Uriah Heep, being confined to one common and exclusive place of living. How long they could withstand each other? And how much money they are going to collect? That is beyond imagination.
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Ashkar
Re #274
"..I don't see a chance other than forming a USE... it might be unpopular, but I don't see any way as to go for complete union.."
So, exactly what has the EU-Brussels entity been doing since the 1992 Maastricht Treaty if not going for 'compete union' despite not a shred of evidence that it is what the EUropean Citizens want from their Political Leadership!?
Your, 'it may be unpopular' and dismissal of that Demcratic Right & Responsibility of Citizens to be consulted and make a choice as to the form of Government they wish for their future is so typical of a 'pro-EU' as to be the common denominator among all supporters of 'ever closer union' - - People just don't figure in EU plans - - Only the interests of 'big-Business/big-Government' is to be referred to by the grand anti-Democratic Brussels entourage!
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powermeerkat@270 wrote:
"Shia and Sunni have been slaughtering each other since times immemorial."
Please don't exaggerate.
They have been engaged in mutual slaughter only for the past 1,300 years or so.
Cheers!
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Wow losing the 13th and 14th salary must be very hard. Considering being German and NEVER having had such a thing I can hardly imagine that loss :-(
We usually save money from over the year here for special occasions such as christmas or holidays, but saving money for later doesn't seem to be a particular greek strength.
And fuel prizes of 1.60? Oh boy thats a giantic gap from the 1.45 to 1.50 that we have here
Also funny thing about retirement age, which is even now 67 here and presumably going to be rather 70 when I am old enough for it.
So while your country is absolutely broke the standards of living get adjusted only to about the level that we have (at this point not even mentioning whether it was only corrupt politicians or at least partially also the strong feeling in the population that taxes are something for the stupid). Nevertheless you still dare to riot against that. What an interesting mentality and one that clearly makes me vote harshly against ANY cent sent over to Greece at all.
However also interesting that a clear majority here (except for the Greeks obviously) wouldn't pay as well if they were German.
Funny sidenote that the person qouted in the article is actually danish and Denmark is not paying anything at all to save Greece - that much for solidarity. What a hypocrit.
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As an observer from North America (previously England) I have a hard time understanding why Germany is being singles out as the 'bad guys'. I understand the concept of community and the Euro, but if as stated in the agreement "No bailouts" why is Greece expecting to be bailed out. I know there is no simple answer but an agreement is an agreement, No?.
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@ 275, DurstigerMann wrote:
The European integration not only played an important role in deescalating the Aegean dispute ...
>> there is NO 'Aegean dispute' ... Aegean IS/HAS BEEN/WILL BE Greek according to History and International Agreements so PLEASE ENOUGH WITH THE INACCURACIES!! In fact Greece has the LEGAL/AGREED RIGHT to epxand its legal water-borders more that currently the case but is not doing so only due to the TRAITOR 'Greek' politicians of the past 40 years ...
The LOSER/TRAITOR 'Greek' politicians have been UNABLE TO PROTECT THE SIMPLE OBVIOUS/GIVEN rights of Greece (e.g. HISTORIC GREEK names and MEANINGS like 'MAKEDONIA' - explain that etymologically if you do not know Greek!! - and have had a bunch of ILL-EDUCATED Slavs from General Tito believe they own ... Ancient Greek History) not to mention they NEVER EVER WENT AFTER even MORE SIMPLE things and rights of Greeks (e.g. Parthenon Marbles back home) ... and all this to FOREIGN IGNORANCE becoming the norm!!!!!!!! PATHETIC!!!! But only Greek people can PUNISH THEM, preferably as per Anceint Greek real Democracy rules (Expel for Life or even ... Execute for Treason)!!
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To educate yourself on the BIG picture read this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2010/04/rating_agencies_who_made_them.html
To educate your ... Ignorance on Greece read this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/how_can_the_financial_crisis_i.html
>> 272. At 11:13am on 29 Apr 2010, Alan Butler wrote:
There is a lot of ignorance being displayed here about Greece.
I have lived and worked in Athens for thirty years.
During that time I have never once felt obliged to offer a bribe, or a 'present' for services rendered.
I have often paid in cash for services, knowing full well that the recipient would be avoiding tax, but that happens just as often in other European countries, including Britain.
The great majority of Greeks are hard-working people living on lower wages and paying higher prices than most Europeans.
They have just been badly let down by one self-serving government after another.
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@ # 279 Cool-brush_work
I agree with you to the extent that EU is not as democratic, as we would like it to be. OUR responsibility to change that.
On the other hand, never forget, I'm German, and the lads and lassies responsible, as well as the allies in 1948/49 refrained from putting referendum into OUR constitution... there must have been a reason... ;-)
I agree, companies play a role. I, personally, do not appreciate that.
Fact is, if we were in a closer union, this role of the companies would be smaller, since the companies are global players, and every effort to combine our nations would "globalise" us to an extent, where we could get a grip on these guys leading the companies.
However, let me make one thing very clear, I'm all but happy with the work done in Bruxelles! I simply do not see any chance for the future of ALL our nations, if we don't join. And, as we've seen, economical and political union cannot be separated. The outcome of the attempt, that's exactly, what we saw a couple of days ago - and it's a shame, for all of us.
And, please would any contra-EU-person please tell me (pro-EU-person) what would happen, if this EU disbanded? Is it clear to everyone, what catastrophy would happen? What is this talk all about?
Ash
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#281. At 7:17pm on 01 May 2010, Seraphim85
When you speak of a Dane, I realise you mean Nyrup Rasmussen. You should notice that he is chairman of the European social democrats and member of the EU parliament. He speaks as such, as a European, and not as a Dane. (I know him quite well, and I know it sounds strange, but he is one of the reasons, why I left for Germany.) Nyrup Rasmussen was among the very first to predict the financial crisis we have now - he is well educated in economy.
It is somewhat futile to discuss what the Danes think or do not think. They don’t have the Euro, and therefore they have not been asked to participate. Nyrup Rasmussen and a majority in the Danish parliament is FOR a membership of the Euro zone, for the simple reason that they think the advantages surpass the disadvantages. Actually the majority in the parliament is growing, notwithstanding how difficult it must be for quite a few here to understand it.
So far the Danish voters have been against it, and it can only be changed through a referendum. It will probably satisfy a couple of populists here, but actually they should consider if they understand the representative democracy. The veto of the voters is a function of that democracy.
I expect Denmark to change its position on the Euro in the next legislation period, which can begin this year or at the latest in the next year.
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Back to the original issue:
Explaining German angst over Greece....
Explain them this:
Russia alone and China alone have both made offers to give Greece money at 3-3,5%.
This news is not even given in Europe.
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The Greek government said as recently as a month ago that it did not want a bailout. It is the rest of Europe that is trying to force Germany to foot the bill for one. All Greece wanted according to the Papadopolis or whatever his name is was low market rates. But did the EU simply offer to foot the bill for the difference between what the open market wants and what Greece feels is competitive? No, that's not the way I hear it. They want to foot two thirds of the entire bill the IMF paying the rest. That means Germany of course and other Europeans seem very satisfied and expectant that somehow Germany should go out on a limb for all that money. When these loans default as they inevitably will, who will pay the cost? Why the German taxpayers of course who have no say in it now. So much for German democracy. There's another problem for the German economy in the future Drugstore, bad debt owed by foreign governments to German banks. How many crummy Greek Islands is worth eight billion Euros to a German bank? What collateral do the other PIIGieS have to offer when their time comes?
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Islands??? DREAM ON ... or COME AND GET THEM :-DD !!!!!
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@ # 279 Cool_brush_work
Addition:
What should be done:
- create a European Secretary of Finances:
* providing equal (fractional) spending
* providing equal (fractional) export/import rates. redistributing, if necessary
* providing equal absolute minimum-wages
* prohibiting tax-evasion (and openly denounce those who support it)
- create a European Secretary of State
*providing a congruent foreign policy
- create a European Secretary of the Interior:
* providing a congruent plan for inner security and police
... shall I go on?
Ash
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@Tasos
We should be prepared for anything. It won't be the first time! At least we should give them a run for their money!
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New Math;
"So far the Danish voters have been against it [joining the Euro], and it can only be changed through a referendum.....
I expect Denmark to change its position on the Euro in the next legislation period, which can begin this year or at the latest in the next year."
Fantastic. They will join just in time to help Germany pay for the bail out of Spain. That's a big one and Germany will need all the help it an get.
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@ashkar
I agree. If there is some sort of fiscal and political union (real union) Eurozone and EE will survive otherwise it will go down the drain. There is no other way. The question is, can it happen? difficult, it is not very popular I think to the key players.
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@ 291. At 8:50pm on 01 May 2010, vassilis wrote:
@Tasos
We should be prepared for anything. It won't be the first time! At least we should give them a run for their money!
>> I am READY TO SHOW some GOOD OLD ..... GREEK HOSPITALITY!! Anytime, Anytime ;-)
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This morning I was woken up by a lot of noise. It turned out to be the only 1-may demonstration in town, complete with the slogan 'respect our rights'. While I can sympathize with some of their statements (the workers are asked to pay twice, once for bailing out the bankers, and now a second time for funding the state deficits) my right to be not disturbed by excessive noise was not respected, even though there was no contradiction between their right of demonstration and my right to sleep. All they could have done was to turn down the volume of the loudspeaker, and to ban the clown with the big drum...
Perusing all the arguments here, I am still struck by the fact that 'Germans' are pitted against 'Greeks' by whoever approves the status quo, i.e. the rule of the capitalists which required a bailout by taxpayers in 2008, only to continue now to put pressure on sovereign debts having skyrocketed exactly due to the bailouts. The Levin committee hearings in the US senate, both on the rating agencies and on Goldman Sachs, are already treated as yesterday's news (i.e. conveniently forgotten), even though they pointed out a very disturbing reality about Wall Street attitudes. Not even our USA commentators talked about them, too anxious to displace the debate to the perceived shortcomings of 'Europeans' and their euro. It is nationalism all over the place, just like it was in 1914. OK, maybe not as lethal yet, but still, can't it be toned down a bit? Doesn't anyone see the 'divide and rule' tactic adopted by globalized 'market forces' behind this?
It seems to me that the EU project took a bad turn with the Maastricht treaty, not because of the treaty per se, but because of the circumstances in which it was negotiated. I read somewhere (can't trace it back, unfortunately), that the social chapter opt-out for the UK was traded against the German premature recognition of the independence claims of Slovenia and Croatia from the Yougoslav federation. Now the Yougoslav federation is no more, in part because the Slovenians and Croatians did not want to pay for the more southern Slav components of the Federation. Sounds familiar, this geographical distribution of wealth, and the refusal to share? Spain, anyone, or say, Italy, or say, the Eurozone itself?
It is true that the right wing Germans, including Lamers and Schauble (now finance minister of Germany), proposed in the mid-1990s a tight sub-group inside the EU, with advanced federative powers (the subgroup being Germany, France and the Benelux). This was opposed by the UK, who wanted (wants) to dilute any power on the European continent, and therefore pushed for enlargement to the East (hence the 2004 EU extension, which definitively killed a 'deepened' EU and brought about a 'large' EU).
I still think that the euro is a good thing, and facilitates life between the original countries of the EEC. While I am sometimes a bit doubtful about Italy, the addition of Austria and Finland to the core EUrozone (Germany, France, and the Benelux) does not disturb the equilibria (nor does the inclusion of northern, but not southern Italy, cf. #124). But the presence of most of the 'peripheral' countries is another matter, which now shows its limits.
When the dust is settled (if ever), the EU should review its 'regional' policy, and perhaps give up the hope to 'integrate/elevate' the periphery to the level of the core countries. It means becoming less ambitious, stopping enlargement, and creating a structure with a core, a first periphery, and a second periphery. To do so requires leadership, not provided at present by people which just keep an eye on the next election. It also requires more influence of elected bodies (where is the EU parliament these days?), and a more democratic attitude. But I guess I can always dream, only to be rudely awaked to the noise outside...
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#277 MarcusAurellius
#254
´Meanwhile anyone here in the US who is even suspected of being a collaborator or sympathetic to the enemy will be perceived as the entire Islamic world will be the object of the cruelest and most barbaric reprisals by the rest of the population ´
A person who says such things either believes that the American population harbor such Fascistic capabilities or they already know they presently exist.
Why must you always VERIFY my previous observations of the adolfii fascistii virus.
Change US to Third Reich and
Islamic to Jewish
Then you MAY understand what Fascism is.
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Something is fishy in this whole Greek conundrum. In fact there is a lot of fishy assertions blaming Greece for its "irresponsibility".
I have two main questions: 1. Who controlled and who controls The Purse? and, 2. Who is the main accuser of Greece irresponsible money handling?
All further considerations ought to start after sober examination associated with these two questions.
Shooting bullets of accusation toward Greece is off base but now politically "correct". Germany in position to solve Greece problems/rescue its presence(or termination) in EU? Big joke!
The subject of real issue behind why Greece is the first to "dry", followed by Portugal then Spain requires more space than this forum could tolerate or digest so I will limit my post.
Important is the fact that European Union is a conglomerate of nations which are bound from the inception to certain rules regarding finances and common currency. The governance of finances/strings attached to division of the total purse/duties of members/contributions/
restrictions as well as checks and balances of adherence to rules emanates from Brussels.
When Greece was admitted to the Union all was OK? Then - when things went awry? Who at Brussels failed to detect that Greece is "living above the standards" allowed? Who approved Greece financial adviser, the firm now blamed for, to say the least, "unconventional financial guidance"? Why those in control of The Purse failed to detect abnormalities that strangly now amount to hundreds of billions (?) euros?
Obviously, there is some misrepresentation of the whole issue. Logic dictates that there is misrepresentation of factual data. Imagine, countries that participate in US engineered adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan pour billions of euros without recovering anything in return, sort of keeping a wallet with big hole in it have stable, debt free economies. Countries that continue this doubtful negative investment are financially stable while Greece, and signs point to Spain and Portugal as next, has billions of euros in debts.
Sounds like innovative accounting coming from Brussels, courtesy of The Purse holders.
It is easy to see where current direction leads - selling national, Greek assets, to foreign investors at bargain, artifically set, prices.
My advice to Greece: Wait patiently for dismissal from EU, revive old currency, deal mainly with partners outside of EU, initially based on barter, while accepting EU generated tourism (why not)and keep your national treasures in your own hands.
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@ 297, Pass Torian >> You DO see the bigger picture ... unlike some others who TAKE IN everything the mass media FEED them ... without seeing the connections of mass media with all others and ... what you mentioned!!
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Oh yes, on the islands. Bild wrote in the beginning of March "Ihr kriegt Kohle. Wir kriegen Korfu", meaning "you get the dough, and we get Corfu". Having heard the reaction of some Corfiots, I cannot but laugh at the suggestion that this was only about some inhabitated islands (such as Atokos, price 45 million euros, see the link in Bild's article), or even a possible anchor for the Russian Black Sea fleet. Anyone who has seen a port visit of an American aircraft carrier to a Greek island knows that the USA will not easily allow anybody else around in the Eastern Mediterrenean. So please stop referring to Bild's idea of being a good one: it just underscored the lack of tact one is used to expect from this tabloid, and which helped poison the relations between Germans and Greeks. [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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#297 pass torian
More Greek logic ?
Revive the Drachma and pay imports with it ?
Barter WHAT with neighboring countries. At this level of bankruptcy the Greeks can only barter between themselves. Do you think that the Greek olive farmers do not remember life before the EU subsidies ?
They will laugh you out of town for those suggestions.
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Can any contributor verify or deny that some Greek pensions may be INHERITED by a daughter on condition that she never takes a job ?
Thank you.
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@ 300, quietoaktree wrote:
#297 pass torian
More Greek logic ?
Revive the Drachma and pay imports with it ?
>> WHAT IMPORTS?? Greece is a place where we can have/produce ANYTHING!! In contrast with the UK for example!! NOT to mention that this would mean CREATING jobs again, even e.g. for Replacing with own-produce the goods that are not currently being produced!! We are definitely NOT going to die from hanger!! Other people MIGHT if they do NOT import!!
AND YES, the MOST EXPENSIVE 'IMPORT' is the ... military weapons ... bought from the SAME PEOPLE who are saying ... take some money so that you will have some to ... BUY BIG on miliraty weapons for us again and AGAIN and ... OWE to us for ever so that ... we CAN BUY FOR FREE your LAND, BUSINESS etc etc (i.e. GERMANS, Americans, English etc etc!!).
Greece does NOT need to be HELD HOSTAGE of any bank or of those specific groups of people who want to get Everything in Greece FOR FREE INDIRECTLY by devaluating or bankrupting the country and having generations OWE money to them to do them ...favors or sell anything for nothing!!!
And SINCE the EU IS SUCH A JOKE, ok then Greece can find other people to co-operate with ... there is Always Qatar, China, Arabs etc etc etc ... the saying goes 'there is more than one orange tree to get oranges from' ... so GOODNIGHT!!!
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Marcus & oaktree
OK. Which one of you wants to wear the red shirt or who prefers the yellow one? Oaktree I hope you will be happy with the red one. I don't think Marcus would ever go there. Unless of course, we accentuated it with a little white and blue.
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#302 Tassos
Was that your serious answer ?
Do you know how many oranges and olives are produced in your area, and you will undercut those countries still getting EU subsidies for the same produce ???
True you will not starve but the food subsidies ( before EU entry paid by the Greek government) will also be gone.
Nationalism does NOT feed stomachs !
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To 297, I see what you are saying,
People like to look down on someone (I hate the idea of people as hens with pecking orders)
(and I'm American and actually ...decent person) But,
People do like to look at someone and laugh or say look at them, and the Greek people do not deserve this....they deserve respect and here
The Germans are the Martyr/Hero and getting all the attention at the expense of Greece pain.
Greece is having to ....take the phone off the hook ...just to do its every day business. All these gossipy housewives telling lies
Well there is a song
Our lips are sealed
Look at them telling lies,
that is no surprise
when u see them look right through
them
that is when you'll be here
and you'll be real
Doesnt matter what they say,
doesn't matter anyway hey, hey, hey,
Our lips are sealed
In other words Greece is great it is a thing to be Greek, also, tell the workers, do not despair, you will find out now whom are your true friends.
So, if Germany and not say, the USA, says we will help you, you will know whom your true friends ARE. :)
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#303 MaudDib
You got the shirts mixed up, or was there only one ?
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MaudDib,
You (probably wont acknowledge me...think im foolish) but you are the person who says little but when she says something its
worth it. The very right thing to say at this moment.
:)
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BTW, Nik I saw your comments on the terrible oil spill, least what you say is interesting:)
But, its a big disaster. When are the disasters going to end for us Westerners....maybe Russia will come out of all this smelling like a rose:)
I even fear for Obama, and the British, they are going to get blamed for ...something and be scapegoated...its looking like this...sad, sad.
I hope people keep perspective that its the peoples desire for oil that is responsible ultimately for this .....wildlife fiasco? (too big an event to name)
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H. L. Mencken, an American newspaper columnist in the first half of the 20th century, observed that Government is the mechanism by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everybody else. What one sees is a government expanding, larger pensions, earlier retirements, borrowing from other sources. Argentina went through this exercise, eventually disowned its borrowing from foreigners.
Currently Venezuela and Bolivia are experimenting in this direction. Greece is a current European example; and the USA will face some very unpleasant decisions at the point where China and Japan become unwilling to finance the ongoing governmental deficits of the USA.
Within the USA, California is continuing to run huge deficits, and counting on the federal govt. to bail it out. Within California, the city of Vallejo has over 70% of all revenues going to retired employees, and is unable to pay for maintaining its infrastructure. Private employers who can leave have done so.
Strangely, this was not a problem when the USA had a divided government with Bill Clinton in the White House and a Republican congress. However, neither Pres. G.W. Bush nor Pres. B. Obama has been willing or able to make the difficult choices to restrain or actually ("horrors!") reduce the size of the US federal govt. in order to try to live within the anticipated tax revenue.
Where Greece is today, the USA may well be with respect to foreign debt within a few years. No amount of invention or private company innovation can economically offset mistakes by political leadership that makes promises to its citizens w/o a realistic way of paying for the cost of those promises.
TeaPot562
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#303 MaudDib
Sorry my mistake, probably I´m under the affluence of incahol.
Thanks for the kind thought. My two Thai friends have black eyes and bruises this past few weeks , their wives appear to have different political views.
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#309 TeaPot562
Germany was doing everything well for its citizens until re-unification and the fall of the Iron Curtain knocked it off balance.
Europe and especially Germany were faced with difficult decisions. If they did nothing, the millions of destitute refugees may have headed Westward, The EU had to be expanded to give them hope for a better existence.Those who did leave their countries, had to be free to travel so they could be distributed within Europe.
The previous open doors to Canada, Australia and the USA were shut long ago.
Then came the dot.com bubble and the subprime problem.
It is not surprising that Greece has few lovers at the present, unfortunately it appears not ONE of the Greek contributors on this blog is willing to face the reality of their countries´ inconsideration for others less fortunate than they were.
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acorn brain;
"Can any contributor verify or deny that some Greek pensions may be INHERITED by a daughter on condition that she never takes a job ?"
Why, are you planning a sex change operation, moving to Greece, and being legally adopted by an old ex-government employee about to kick the bucket? Is that your retirement plan?
For someone who claims to be quiet your sure make a lot of useless noise.
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Maudlin;
My shirt is red, white, and blue. What color is yours green? Is that green from envy or just mold?
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313. MarcusAureliusII
"My shirt is red, white, and blue. What color is yours green? Is that green from envy or just mold?"
That's my boy! As predictable as big ben.
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Maudlin;
You remind me of the TV series Maude, you seem very much like the main character Maude Findlay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maude_(TV_series)
Insufferable. At least Hyacinth Bucket had some redeeming worth.
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307. David
For your info. I have great respect for your thoughts and enjoy reading them. Don't know if you and I agree on much. particularly politics. I do think you have a good heart. And that's a good thing.
Bye the bye. I'm a he and not a she. The moniker Maud'Dib comes from a series of books written by Frank Herbert called the "Dune Chronicles". In retrospect I might have used Kwisatz Haderach but that would have been stretching it a bit much. Marcus probably could have got away with it. You ought to read them sometimes. His stuff reminds me of J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. Hey, what's up with the Brits and initials. Well, we'll always have JD Salinger. And don't tell me he's British. I'm sure Alice will argue that he's Russian.
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Msrcus,
As Oprah told Whoopie Goldberg in the The Color Purple, "It ain't worth it."
:)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
315. MarcusAureliusII
Be sure to pronounce that like "bouquet". Let me guess. You'd be daddy or Onslow. In a red, white and blue shirt.
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ty, had a bad week and im glad its overrrrrrrr
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310. oaktree
"Sorry my mistake, probably I´m under the affluence of incahol."
Stay away from the thousand-year-old eggs. You can imagine what happens when you mix thousand-year-old eggs and incahol.
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"MAY 1ST, 2010 19:54
Five things to bear in mind as Greece collapses
1. If Greece had kept the drachma, it wouldn’t be in this mess: the markets would have imposed their own corrective years ago.
2. Prevented by euro membership from devaluing, Greece faces years of penury.
..."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/danielhannan/
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263. At 3:22pm on 01 May 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"EU prisoner wrote:
"A longish article in the excellent Austria Newspaper, Wiener Kurier indicates that Austria is making a substantial contribution. As I understand it, I am not allowed to post a link because it is not in English."
I think you may. What is clearly not allowed is including actual QUOTES in a language other than English.
I for one, would appreciate the link ..."
EUpris: Fingers crossed!
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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269. At 4:38pm on 01 May 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"...
I have seen too many of the ex-colonies and their problems left by the UK elite, to wish it on my worst enemies."
EUpris: You should have seen them before the Brits got there!!!
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269. At 4:38pm on 01 May 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"...
I have seen too many of the ex-colonies and their problems left by the UK elite, to wish it on my worst enemies."
EUpris: Do you mean the USA?
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274. At 5:29pm on 01 May 2010, ashkar wrote:
" ...
Germany will never ever leave the Euro ..."
Kaiser Bill: "I believe in the horse. The automobile is a passing phenomenon."
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253. At 2:23pm on 01 May 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
" ...
#243 EUprisoner
If your knowledge about this world comes mainly from the British press then your EU knowledge will be limited and ´Dumbed Down ´ When I visited Britain, news concerning Europe was practically non-existent. "
EUpris: I know that we were promised a referendum which we were then denied. That on its own would tell me enough to want to leave the "EU" immediately.
As it happens, I know more than that.
For more in the "EU" in English see the Daily Telegraph blogs and the UKIP website.
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From the Wiener Kurier:
'The Finance Minister defends the two billions for Athens: "If the Eurozone falls apart, that will cost us up to 40 billion." '
My translation.
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Im still getting over the fact youre male, MaudDib and Im Gay...irony of ironies...
But, I do like the first Dune but it was so complex my little mind couldnt wrap around it and go on to the next book.
Again But, I like authors like that.... Stephen R Donaldson you might like.
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The funny thing was, MaudDib,
(sorry oak tree..digressing)
is I Had a transvestite professor in college--that was chronicled in the Wall Street Journal--for my finance course.
Afterward, here I'm Gay and supporting her inside politically, but I was embarrassed (I think cause she was a celebrity) and every time she'd smile at me ...like "yes, go ahead and talk," I'd stutter and funnily,
after that she, I think, thought I had a crush on her, which being gay CRRRRUSHED me. Yuk but I liked her as a person.
I felt bad for her cause she was a great teacher and lost her lawsuit to keep her newly dead's husbands money cuz Kansas didn't recognize....blah blah blah.
No stereotyping intended. Actually, really, truly...
And I realize you are not a transvestite.....
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EU Prisoner....you ARE a good writer And comedian....
Keep fighting the good fight (make us laugh too)
Peace :)
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Maud and David;
By the power vested in me by the State of Confusion, I now pronounce you.....whatever.
'Til death do you part.
You may now....nevermind.
There, that's finished. No more about it until the divorce. Can we get back to the end of Europe?
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I guess it is difficult to remain on the subject because other people's posts are so interesting , to the point , or wide of the mark .
I think it is wrong to lend Greece Billions of Euros , so that she can pay interest on her debts to banks in Germany , France and the USA or wherever . In my view it is like giving Methadone to a drug adict ; it may ease the pain of withdrawal symptoms , but it might not cure them of adiction . It would be better for Eurozone countries to collectively pay the interest on the debts , than give money to greece .
The harsh austerity measures will not help Greece recover ; as we see already the unrest of the greek people and their unwillingness to accept the si