A fateful day for the eurozone
Friday will be remembered as the day the euro needed rescuing. Sure it is Greece that has asked to be bailed out but it was still a day that the architects of the single currency had never envisaged. For when it came to it, there were no plans to save a euro member in trouble.
The last few months have been a long, agonising drama. It is the financial markets that have been in the driving seat. The politicians, the eurozone countries, the European Central Bank, the European Union have all played catch-up, scrambling to put together a rescue plan. Now Europe is faced with what is potentially the biggest ever bail-out of a country.
The rescue pot is around £40bn. Two-thirds of it will come from eurozone countries and one-third from the IMF. For a long period, European countries resisted any involvement from the IMF. Pride stood in the way. They feared that the reputation of the euro would be tarnished. It has been. If they had turned to the IMF earlier, however, the pain might have been less and the crisis shorter.
What the EU hoped was that promises of support would appease the financial markets and that Greece's borrowing costs would decline. It never worked. Investors were not convinced. They doubted Greek statistics. They were uncertain about the details of any proposed rescue package.
Even though Greece cut pay in the public sector, few believed they had cut enough to meet their own target of a 4% reduction in the deficit this year. The domestic pressures on the Greek government were immense. There were almost daily strikes and protests with the occasional riot.
For weeks economists had been saying a bail-out was inevitable. Then in recent days the word leaked out that Greece's finances were worse than had been revealed. Last year's deficit, it turned out, was closer to 13.6 % of GDP than 12.7%. The economy was contracting. Unemployment rising. Greece had entered a spiral.
As it fought to slash its deficit, so its economy began shrinking, making it even more difficult to reduce its debt. There were whispers that Greek banks were facing a funding crisis. Some wealthy Greeks had begun removing their money.
There will now be intense discussions over the conditions of the rescue package. The deal should be in place by early May.
The Greek people will want to know the fine detail of the terms. This week strikers closed hospitals and stopped ferries sailing. If the IMF insists on further cuts - say, to pensions - the streets of the Greek capital could well be volatile. More protests are planned for next week.
So will this be the end of the crisis that has driven the euro sharply lower? Certainly in the short term Greece will be able to finance its debt. It needed to find about 54bn euros this year.
The longer term is harder to read. German bankers fear that the funds needed to save Greece will be much higher than announced. As it lives through its era of austerity Greece's ability to pay back loans may become harder. It may need long-term support. Some believe a similar package will be required in 2011 and perhaps 2012.
We now enter an uncertain period. Will the financial markets test Portugal or Spain? The Spanish economy is five times the size of Greece. Will other bail-outs be needed and would the German taxpayer revolt against helping out others?
This bail-out will be unpopular in Germany. Although there are those who say that the Greek rescue is not technically a bail-out because it comes as a loan, you'll find plenty of economists who say this is just playing with words. For, in effect, Greek borrowing will be subsidised.
So there could be challenges in the German courts to the legality of the Greek bail-out. Chancellor Merkel has made concessions but she wants the bail-out plan to be "convincing". There are regional elections in Germany in early May and the bail-out will be an issue.
In a revealing article in the New York Times, John Kornblum, a former US ambassador to Germany, says that "Europe in the institutional sense has become increasingly unpopular" in Germany.
"German courts have begun to define German European issues in the context of the German constitution rather than on the basis of EU law," he writes. He goes on to say that "the growing gap between Germany's aspirations and the perceived needs of other members of the EU is beginning to burden both sides. Most Europeans are simply not ready to live up to German standards".
Perhaps the most significant legacy of this crisis is the emergence of a Germany that asserts its own national interest above being "good Europeans"; the role it has played in the past.
The biggest challenge, however, is to the EU and the single currency. Some insist that the euro is fundamentally a strong currency. Many disagree, insisting that the single currency has been exposed as flawed. They focus on the difficulty of having monetary and not fiscal union. The differences between, say, the German economy that runs large surpluses and other economies that are crippled with debt are immense. Can all inhabit the same currency zone? The question remains unanswered.
There will be fall-out. Already the EU is discussing stricter enforcement measures; those countries that break the rules and run up huge deficits could well face severe sanctions in the future.
How to address the difference in competitiveness between countries in the eurozone is a much harder question. To persuade Germans to spend more or save less is a non-starter. Germany has sacrificed much to achieve its status as a major exporter and manufacturer.
There will be pressure to set up a mechanism to deal with similar crises in the future. That might necessitate treaty changes and that would open up another round of painful negotiations just after the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified. There are no easy options but the fundamental weaknesses in the euro will have to be addressed one way or another.
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"There will be pressure to set up a mechanism to deal with similar crises in the future. That might necessitate treaty changes and that would open up another round of painful negotiations just after the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified. There are no easy options but the fundamental weaknesses in the euro will have to be addressed one way or another."
This analysis is based upon what, exactly? Hope, or experience?
Because our experience of the EU suggests the opposite of this rousing call to reason and fiscal maturity.
Let us stop for a moment and consider two basic, fundamental economic numbers. Not just in Greece, but all over Europe. Public Debt to GDP ratio, and budget deficit.
In Greece, the public debt to GDP ratio is 125%. And the budget deficit is over 13%.
Now the second figure might be a surprise. Sure. "Things" might have happened in the past 12 months that took everybody by surprise. Banks failing, volcanoes erupting, planes full of politicians crashing. Whatever. Let us put aside the fact that government are supposed to be wise and to be able to predict major events reasonably well. Let us put that to one side, and give government the benefit of the doubt and say that they can be excused for 12 months unexpected bad news.
OK. But what about the other figure, the 125%?
That didn't happen in the past 12 months. It didn't happen because of the banking heist. In fact, it happened during the "boom times", which we now understand were based upon massive accounting fraud by those who are too big to fail.
That figure of 125%, it took years and years to eventuate. And it has been growing like a cancer. Not in secret, but in the full view of the esteemed media and the even more highly esteemed experts in government. Everyone knew. Everyone knew the figures, and everyone knew that borrowing more and more to spend more and more would ..... MUST bring us to the current happy juncture. Verging on complete default and economic meltdown, that is to say.
So what we have here.. not just in Greece... is a system where the entire government system has failed. Not due to bad luck, or due to surprise, or lack of notice, or technical failure. The entire system of government has failed to take notice of the fundamental bottom line they have been responsible for.
And that blame does not end with the national governments of member states. The institutions of the EU have been riding shotgun in terms of willful negligence. The EU has consistently and brazenly used it influence to talk up the fortunes of the member states, and to speak only of the glory and bounty of the EU system itself.
Nobody forced the institutions of the EU to draft the treaty amendments they way they did, on several occasions during the debt build up. Nobody sat behind the commission with loaded weapons and said "You will omit to demand effective regulation on shonky financial reporting and banking practices. You will ignore the economic fundamentals and concentrate on the media spectacle designed to gather more tax payers money to the combined party machine in Brussels."
That didn't happen. What happened was that all those party members in Brussels, sent there by the party executives in the member states, were complicit in the great blindness. Everyone in Brussels is a card carrying party member from a member state. They are not referees. They are not bystanders. They are party members from the member states. They ARE the governments of the member states. They are precisely the same people who have been responsible for the borrowing, the spending, more borrowing, more spending, and they are precisely the same people who have been responsible for saying nothing and doing nothing whilst the debt grew and grew.
And yet Hewitt expects us to believe that these are the people who will suddenly jump out of bed and confront the reality as though it is their duty to do so.
Hewitt expects us to swallow the appalling and ridiculous notion that the fox will suddenly guard the hen house. He must think we are completely stupid.
The governments of the member states are not the solution to this problem. They cannot be the solution. The EU cannot be the solution, simply because it is the problem. It is not a spectator to the problem, it is the architect of the problem.
And the reason it and the governments of the member states cannot solve the problems they have created is simply because it has not been accidental.
Look again at that number of 125% public debt to GDP. Ask yourself, how many years did that take to accumulate? Now ask yourself, who knew? Ask yourself, who was paid to know, and what did they do in response?
The answer is that they did know and they then borrowed and spent even more. I repeat, they knew, and then then borrowed even more money in your childrens' name, and spent it with abandon.
And a lot of people who were and are well connected with government made a lot of money.
And now Hewitt comes to you and preaches that these are the same people who will suddenly stand up and do something about the problem.
Fascism collapses as a system of government because it allows one sector of the community to be predator, to prey upon other sectors of the same community. It professes a free market ideology, and then uses a rigid caste system to allow one caste to use the power of government to steal from the other castes, by passing laws that destroy the market in place of institutionalized theft.
In Europes case, just as in the former soviet union, the political parties, sponsored by the bankers, have taken a stranglehold on political power and they have been bleeding everyone else dry. Not only have they been bleeding all non party members dry, they have been bleeding the children of non party members dry, through the institution of public debt.
That is not an accident, and you have to be frightened and stupid to believe it could possibly be so. It has been the deliberate policy of the party machine to prey and feed upon non party members. They have taxed and borrowed and spent like crazy people, with no regard for the welfare of anybody except the owners of large corporations. their careers have been sponsored by the owners of large corporations since university, and in many cases the nepotism has been outright, in a sick parody of middle age feudalism.
And the solution, says hewitt, is to be found by letting these sick predators amend the treaty of the EU so that they can further architecture their aims.
Hewitt is preaching that the solution to the problems soviet rule must come from the commissars of the central grand soviet.
He steadfastly refuses to analyze the system of representation under which he lives, and refuses to hold those in positions of power responsible for their actions or accountable for their policies.
But even such a loyal display of propaganda cannot change the numbers. This system of fascism will fail, for the same reason feudalism failed. When one caste in a society preys and feeds upon the others, the market fails. And when the market fails, innovation and growth give way to stagnation and conflict.
Just as it came to pass in the former soviet union, so it will come to pass in the EUSSR.
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The fundamental weakness of the Euro currency is that Germany and France let countries join the single currency ahead of time. Countries like Greece and Italy should have taken more time in the late 1990s and early 2000s to sort their economies out. Instead they were rushed in.
Ireland suffered a different fate. Unable to raise interest rates to slow a bubble, the Irish were not bold enough to tax borrowing or apply larges taxes to home selling/purchasing. As using tax to control bubbles would be deeply unpopular.
The UK's decision not to join the Euro has been good and bad. We have conceded 30% of the value of Sterling to the Euro over the last 10 years. However, this theoretically should mean a rebalance in trade.
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Mr Hewitt;
Your understanding of German interests remains fundamentally wrong. To Germany it is impossible to distinguish between national and continental interests.
You would be well advised to look for persons and sources in Germany, which can confirm you in the opposite understanding. It will be difficult.
The rest is correct, and one day the Greeks will also realise that.
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democracythreat @ #2
Your analysis is excellent but for one thing. It is the politicians who maintain membership of the EU, maintain the EU as an entity and collude/machinate/ together within the EU to maintain it as a political body.
They do so without reference to their electorates and, even if they do have to resort to asking their electorates for support, they will pursue repeat referenda until they get the support they need.
Thus, although the politicains are the architects of the stagnation and loss of enterprise through their machinations within Europe, it will not be the stagnation and failure of markets that will terminate the EU but it will have to be the politicians who pronounce the EU (and the Euro) as being dead wood. That is simply not going to hapen democratically.
It is my firm belief that the Common Market - free of tariffs and with a mobile workforce - was a truly exceptional idea for Europe. Sadly, the politicains decided between themselves that Europe needed to integrate further and co-opted participation in the Euro for those willing to cede fiscal sovereignty for collusion and backroom political machinations. They also decided between themselves that Europe should become a political entity with a political presnce in the world when this was entirely premature given that, even in this Century, some parts of Europe would be at war or open conflict if it were not for peacekeeping presence or United Nations supervision due to national, ethnic or religious differences.
Alas, I fear that the political classes will maintain the EU as a political entity, ad nauseam, despite the impoverishment of the plebian classes and despite the EU manifestly being politically unsuitable and unfit for purpose.
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Of course Portugal, Spain and Italy will also have to stump up their share to rescue the Greeks who got themselves to the head of the queue.
However this just speeds up the day that this very same trio will also join the queue, as they and their taxpayers are already in serious trouble. In fact the money markets are already beginning to treat Portugal's government bonds the way they did Greek ones six months ago!
The slippery slope is just getting steeper and I just don't see Germany willing to be the lender of last resort. Either the Euro is in very serious trouble or several countries may just have to leave. Just as was predicted when the Euro was formed as a political entity and allowed to be based on fudged figures. In the end the numbers always win, they just don't care what the politicians say or want.
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Monjo wrote "We have conceded 30% of the value of Sterling to the Euro over the last 10 years"
Concession has nothing to do with it unless you think that the governments incompetence, our housing and debt markets and greedy banks were in some way a deliberate plan to wreck sterling.
The fall of stirling is a consequence of the above weaknesses in the UK. If we had been in the Euro we would quite possibly beaten the Greeks to the front of the bailout queue. As it is devalution and reduction of our international wealth is used to rebalance our economic standing instead.
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Mr Hewitt;
I should perhaps add: John Kornblum is free to make his evaluations of course, but he is an American.
Contrary to this the German government and the parties in Bundestag interpret the interests, so you will have to find ministers, members of parliament, or representatives from Germany business organisations to substantiate your description of German interests.
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#2 democracythreat
Feudalism has not failed. The complete structure of the UK is based on it and has been sucking the ´subjects´ dry for centuries.
This total ignorance and stupidity to imply on this blog, with full trumpets blazing, that Her Majesty´s this and Her Majesty´s that, is NOT Feudalism at its best then please explain what is !
Armed forces, Courts, government etc etc etc and if you claim All is symbolic and at the same time have no idea on whose land you are paying the Feudal Tax. (only another name) Then I suggest you ask questions about your own country ( if UK) without using ignorance to justify ´Intellectual´ criticisms of other political systems and ideas.
The use of the word Fascism is this context is particularly offensive and childish, considering the millions murdered, and the history of Colonial Britain.
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#5 Menedemus
´--despite the impoverishment of the plebian classes´???
The only country that has not suffered this ´impoverishment ´ since European entry has been the UK.
The standard of living for the large majority in the UK is a disgrace after 35 years of membership .
It is the British politicians and system who are ´politically unsuitable and unfit for the purpose ´ The 35 years is adequate proof, don´t you think.
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"So will this be the end of the crisis that has driven the euro sharply lower? "
Are you kidding? This is hardly the beginning. They day of the spend spend spend and tax and borrow whatever it takes to keep it going welfare state is at an end in Europe, in the US, and everywhere. Globalization forces them into an impossible to win competition against low cost labor in an "emerging" world economy that are far more inexpensive when it comes to much of the human effort to produce the goods most of the world buys and uses every day. Loss of jobs, loss of tax revenues, and the spiraling need to borrow money from abroad, from the future, from wherever they can persuade fools to lend it to them, money that won't be paid back. Not paid back with anything like the value of the currency borrowed because increased taxes would only drive those economies with luxurious social safety nets deeper into economic crisis.
I'm curious, how much of those German exports are to other EU countries? How much to other Euroland countries. When taken as a whole what is the EU's balance of trade? Euroland's balance of trade? That's what counts, not any one country's. When you look at the US economy, few examine how much California exports to other states. It's the US taken as a whole that matters. To fairly assess Euroland's viability you have to do the same.
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#11 MarcusAurellius
The USA is not bankrupt ???
We are all in this sinking boat with adequate American help, thank you.
As Germany varies between the 1st and 3rd of export super powers the implication that all other EU members are net importers is absurd.
If you wish to consider the whole then OK. Germany´s exports to China now exceeds that to France--- not instead of France.
It is America that is crying to the Chinese for mercy-- not Europe.
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A fateful day, or maybe a fateful two months foir the Eurozone?
Can the Euro be saved?
Even before the birth of the Euro, there were warnings that fiscal stability was all important. The two rocks of this stability were:
1.the Stability and Growth Pact and
2.the “no bailout” clause in the Maastricht Treaty.
Both have been stretched and appear to be shredding.
The Stability and Growth Pact clearly did not prevent “excessive” deficits; mainly because marginal accounting removed "packs" of debt from balance sheets (Whose accounting was this? Whose financial instruments?).
As far as no-bailout clause, well...Greece "appears" to need one.
The Greek bucket appears to need @ £40bn. Thus it becomes clear that a new, far more comprehensive approach is needed. Problems
1. the health (or not) of Greece’s fiscal stabilization program, and
2. how to cover the country’s financing gap.
The deficit has to be reduced by at least 10 percentage points of GDP (i.e. from around 13% of GDP to less than 3% of GDP).
The key problem, which other countries cannot seem to perceive is the astounding Greek austerity required - to wages & social expenditures. The Greek Government can (and has) cut wages in the public sector, but this is not sufficient. A large cut in private-sector wages has to be made - is urgently required - to stimulate exports (which currently amount to less than 20% of GDP).
In other words Greece needs a Greek Sovereign Pact in which Government, the opposition, employers, and workers ALL agree on a set of measures that will cut unit labor costs by at least 10%.
And then….and then…there’s a potential Greek announcement:
The Greek Government could announce a rescheduling of due date on all public debt at an unchanged interest rate. In that case, the Greek government would face no redemptions for the next 5 years; it would have to refinance about €30 billion per year from 2015 onwards, which could quite possibly be manageable by then. Without such a rescheduling, it is highly unlikely that Greece will be able to roll over the approximately €30 billion that will mature annually over the next few years.
Of course, any rescheduling must be accompanied by a strict & credible 10% adjustment program (as outlined above).
I don’t know who or why the current approach is being pished when the solution seems so simple; maybe, I’m just thinking too simply.
There hasn’t been enough communication between the Greek Government and the Greek people to explain the problem & appeal to the national character, which runs deep & honourably. Instead there are ongoing statements about Greece's finances were worse than revealed, last years’ deficit was worse than revealed, etc.
I don’t believe that any rescue package should be set in place – not EU, not IMF, not a combination of the 2 – until after the G-20 in June. This is not so long to wait.
In addition, any country, all STUPID PIIGS should have their debt history analysed by independent European sources, this to clearly ascertain at what point the situation broke down, the commonalties among the cause(s), etc. The PIIGS should eagerly seek this analysis. If there proves a common factor (e.g. credit default swaps, low-interest derivatives, etc. etc. etc.), this suggests another remedial course that should be taken.
There appear to me to be factors at work to drive wedges among EU countries, as in “divide and conquer”. So the EU must act with due diligence to ascertain these divisive factors, examine them, and assess cause and effect. As my last point, if and when the EU divides, some other country conquers.
To the EU I say, consider carefully what you do.
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"Will the financial markets test Portugal or Spain?"
It will not be a test it will be an open battle. And what for? Speculators will always move from one victim to the next (some victims having injured themselves and become carrion waiting to be finished off) as that is their role in the financial jungle.
Is this all a futile attempt to make sure the dollar is the last to die?
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Greece only became a member of the euro zone through falsifying the state of its accounts. Until the EU is prepared to deal sternly with countries that cheat their way to euro membership - by throwing them out again - the currency structure as it is today will eventually fall apart. Why hard-working countries such as Germany should have to bail out a bunch of Greek fraudsters is beyond all economic logic.
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I don't know if Friday will be remembered as the day the euro needed rescuing, because while I sense the Euro has severe problems, so does the dollar, and whether the Euro's problems are more or less serious than those of the USD (or GBP for that matter) time will tell.
All the 'advanced economies' appear to be in trouble; not China nor India (etc) not yet anyway, because they are simply not 'advanced economies' nor, in at least one respect, is the USA - having sent man to the moon 40 years ago, it has failed conspicuously to provide elementary (and also preventative) healthcare for all - even now, despite the latest attempt.
The economy is important; figures are important.
But so is quality of life, and that is something the figures do not account for adequately, and despite the bad figures, Euroland, even the UK, does not do too badly in that respect.
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What is causing all these protests is the fact that the Greek Government of Mr. Papandreou and the media that support it have failed to explain and educate the Greek public how this crisis arose in the first place. Understandable since it will implicate them in a big way. No amount of fudging data and misleading their people will solve their problems. If any Greek thinks that the IMF will not demand massive cuts in the civil service they must be dreaming in technicolour! A poor agricultural country of 12 million people with one million civil servants cannot possibly sustain itself let alone pay its creditors. Time to wake up.
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#13 BluesBerry
A very good analysis.
I would only like to add that history has proven DeGaulle correct in not wishing the UK as a member.
The fall of Communism was nowhere on the horizon until the very day the Berlin wall fell. The original limited aim of the European founding fathers was suddenly overwhelmed by fluid quick changing events. Germany saw the chance to re-unify ( against Thatchers wish ) and America pushed the EU and Nato to expand eastwards knowing that Germany was in a moral bind. The same that the Greeks have recently claimed.
The recent Greek debt mentioned is now around € 70-80 bln. with no end in sight for the next 3 years. Investors in Greek debt should not only expect haircuts but also defaults if this Greek mentality continues (a la Argentina).
I cannot imagine (at least presently) it to be of interest to anyone if the European experiment fails. The fall of communism has caused sufficient turmoil without the fall of EU adding further complications.
The political developments are interesting within EU countries themselves. While the old East German communist party has regrouped and re-named to the Linke Party (Left) and has gained considerable strength in the united Germany, large portions of western Europe appears moving to the far-(and sometimes extreme) right under their national flags.
In this matter they should not expect an understanding Germany.
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@Relton Cory
Let's leave Greece default then. This would be entertaining for the debtors (mainly Germany). What are you advocating, take Greeks to Germany to work like slaves? Even if this happen, Germany and other countries in the meantime will have to bail out (again!) the banks that have lent to Greece all these years. Back to square 1. Germans tax payers will have to put the hand in the pocket anyway.
In other words, we are all into this together one way or the other, even if we don't like it.
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"In a revealing article in the New York Times, John Kornblum, a former US ambassador to Germany, says that "Europe in the institutional sense has become increasingly unpopular" in Germany."
This is spot on and has to do mainly with the undemocratic nature of the EU.
I`d still say that a lot of Germans are in support of the idea of a common European identity, but not at the cost of national sovereignty via an institution which was neither elected by democratic means nor represents demographics in a democratic sense.
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"German courts have begun to define German European issues in the context of the German constitution rather than on the basis of EU law," he writes. He goes on to say that "the growing gap between Germany's aspirations and the perceived needs of other members of the EU is beginning to burden both sides. Most Europeans are simply not ready to live up to German standards".
Perhaps the most significant legacy of this crisis is the emergence of a Germany that asserts its own national interest above being "good Europeans"; the role it has played in the past."
I would not say that most of the Europeans are "not ready to live up to German standards".
[In fact, I don`t even know why it`s always "the Germans" and nobody talks about the Dutch, Austrians, Swedes, etc. But since I am German, I will concentrate on my country]
It`s more that Germany actually has its own problems.
Real wages have been plunging for over a decade now. The cost of living is going up, but the wages can`t even keep up with inflation.
The gap between rich and poor is ever widening with a fast shrinking middle class inbetween.
As far as I am concerned, we are the China of Europe. An export nation driven by low wages.
Temporary employment agencies are booming due to new laws made during the social democrats` rule. And they don`t pay well, to say the least.
On top of that there is always the topic of sustainability for future generations for which we need to cut spendings and decrease debts (we are told).
Even civil servants, teachers, etc got their earnings cut and their wages/a lowered from 13 to 12, just to name an example.
And they are better off than a lot of people working in the private sector.
To continue this example, how can you communicate financial help for Greece when German media is showing pictures and videos of Greek civil servants protesting against a cut to their 14th income/a?
It`s not even about the truth, but about what people see and how they feel about it.
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@Canuck
I wake up in a 6 months and I discover that I cannot feed my family. I am desperate. What I can I do now? 1) Storm the parliament to get rid of inept politicians and the IMF etc. that puts priority to creditors than my life-death situation. 2) Leave to other EU countries (freedom of movement). Despite the loans, salaries are very low in Greece, if more austerity comes and with massive unemployment, this is what will happen inevitably.
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quietoaktree wrote:
#2 democracythreat
"Feudalism has not failed. The complete structure of the UK is based on it and has been sucking the ´subjects´ dry for centuries.
This total ignorance and stupidity to imply on this blog, with full trumpets blazing, that Her Majesty´s this and Her Majesty´s that, is NOT Feudalism at its best then please explain what is !
Armed forces, Courts, government etc etc etc and if you claim All is symbolic and at the same time have no idea on whose land you are paying the Feudal Tax. (only another name) Then I suggest you ask questions about your own country ( if UK) without using ignorance to justify ´Intellectual´ criticisms of other political systems and ideas.
The use of the word Fascism is this context is particularly offensive and childish, considering the millions murdered, and the history of Colonial Britain."
You must be new here, quite oak tree.
I can only suggest you sheath your indignation and read more precisely. I never claimed that the UK was not a feudal system, and I never claimed the class system in the UK was or is symbolic. I don't live in the UK and I am not a UK national.
Finally, I use the term fascism in its technical sense, meaning the rule of government by corporations. I do not use it as a euphemism for bad things germans did sixty years ago.
In the distant past the UK has avoided various forms of degenerate fascism and feudalism by enshrining the separation of powers and the rule of law into a system of parliamentary representation. These have distinguished the UK system from outright feudalism, in my opinion, and they have also tempered the effects of outright fascism on the market.
The English have traditionally had the freedom to contract protected by their judiciary, due to principles of human rights upheld under the guise of the rule of law. This has, in the past, prevented corporations (religious, aristocratic, political or legal) from using the government to eradicate the unseen hand in the market by setting up caste systems that turn government into institutionalized theft. The english have had a class system, and in their colonies they have surely allowed fascism to run its rampant course, but inside the UK the worst aspects of the class system (insofar as the market is a casualty) have been mitigated by the common law. And that possibility has been generated by the traditional separation of powers doctrine, a constitutional principle based upon a long established cultural mistrust of concentrated power. The judiciary of England has protected the people of Britain from the worst effects of concentrate power by upholding the separation of powers doctrine WITHIN THE UK.
Now I would concede that in the colonies the rule of law has been farcical, and has often times resulted in the wholesale slaughter of cultures and races around the globe. Corporate colonial fascism is still the order of the day in many former colonies. And I would also concede that inside the UK the rule of law appears to have died, and the steady grant of increased legal standing to corporations, at the expense of real people, appears to have rendered the UK judiciary complicit in the destruction of both the rule of law and the separation of powers. The party system inside the UK seems to have learned what it needed to learn from soviet communism and continental fascism, in order to destroy the independence of the judiciary, and make the separation of powers a vague memory.
But in any case, I would suggest that you read more carefully, and refrain from setting up straw men. Your comments display both a lack of comprehension of what I did write together with an unnerving tendency to attribute things to me which I never even hinted at.
And before you criticize my use of political and legal terminology, I strongly suggest you verify your own understanding. I am often wrong, but not so often that you might be excused from presuming the case, based upon the complexity of world view you have tabled in this discussion.
I look forward to a more considered response from you, as you seem to have an unconventional perspective on modern events, which is always welcome.
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@ vassilis
It rests in greece's own hands whether the country defaults or not. Avoiding paying taxes is a national pastime in Greece - bring that to a halt and the country's finances would show a marked improvement. Stop people going on pension at age 63, as is the present practice - people in other countries have to work after age 63, and if the Greeks choose not to follow suit it certainly isn't anything I as a European taxpayer should be required to finance. And I am certainly not shedding any tears for the banks - if they couldn't see the danger signals in lending to Greece all these years, then they are being run by incompetents - and if incompetent companies in other sectors are allowed to go under, then let the same apply to the banking sector. After the banking excesses of recent years, we would all be better off if they learned some sharp lessons.
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@Relton Cory
I wouldn't agree more with you about the needed changes (all on their way) but I have a suspicion that these won't be enough for Greece to pay back the loans. If it proves that this is enough there won't be any problem I assure you, the vast majority of Greeks are fine with such changes.
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@ vassilis
Then soon we'll all be able to move there and live comfortably :-)
Must go now - nice exchanging views with you!
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According to press reports Saturday midday the chief of the European Central Bank, Jean Claude Trichet, has said on the G20 meeting in Washington that there is no reason to expect that Portugese or Spanish economy will run into the problems Greece has.
Let us hope he is right. It will make it a lot easier to solve the problem if it can be isolated to Greece.
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There have been some very sick people (Giscard d'Estaing prominently among them) suffering from mania grandiosa who believed, honestly, that United States of Europe could be created, becoming a counterbalance to the United States of America.
By glueing together clearly incongrunent, incoherent peoples.
Now those chicken have come home to roost.
That's the long and a short of it.
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" There will be fall-out. Already the EU is discussing stricter enforcement measures; those countries that break the rules and run up huge deficits could well face severe sanctions in the future."
EUpris: ... which could only make it worse. And, anyway, why should anybody allow their country to pay a fine to the monstrosity in Brussels, which cannot run is own finances?
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#22 Democracythreat.
1.---for the same reason Feudalism failed.
2. (if UK)
3. Feudalism is the class system and is alive and well.
At this point I offer my unconditional apologies as my confusion begins.
Feudalism has its structures and responsibilities with the Church looking over the shoulders of the land owning warlords who were obliged to distribute the use of land down the chain. Over the centuries, the rights of those at the bottom of the pecking order have gone. The rights of those at the top has remained.The list of typical British
structures where this occurs has been given.
Corporate Fascism and EUssr also has me confused and ALL in the EU?
If you had explained the recent American Supreme Courts´decision on equating a Corporation with an individual as Corporate Fascism it would have made life easier for us both.
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Property taxes!
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Nobody can predict what is going to happen in the next few months and weeks. In many ways, the Euro is an unprecedented experiment. Never before has there been a currency used in so many different ecenomoies with one central bank regulating the currency's interest rates.
I expect the Euro to take a short dive in the next few weeks. But so are many other currencies. Britain, Switzerland and Norway are de-facto denpendencies of the European Common Market, therefore, their currencies might suffer, too. As Britain's economy is heading for a depression at the moment, I expect the Pound Sterling to be the worst affected.
But the repercussions are no going to be restricted to Europe. The American Dollar, which has shed every last remainder of credibility it ever had a long time ago. The two main relevant beneficiaries of the Euro's downward turn will likely be the Chinese Rimnimbi Yuan and the Japanese En. Europe's exporting nations will profit from this, whereas the rest of Europe will remain largely unaffacted.
I do not think the result of the Greek bankruptcy/bailout will be anywhere near as spectacular as Gavin Hewitt or some of the participants of this blog would have it. The Euro will take a temporary dive, Greece is going to take whatever direction it is going to take, but it will not be able to carry on the way it has been carrying on. Germany is going to lose a lot of money in this, being the main contributor to the bailout. The rest of the EU is not going to feel much of a difference.
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@MA-II #11
German trade statistics can be found on the Web (search for 'RangfolgeHandelspartner'), but is tedious to analyse. For 2009, the total imports are 674 BE (billion euros), and total exports 808 BE. Hence the surplus is 134 BE, of which 81% is with the Eurozone. The biggest surplusses with EU countries are with France (27.4 BE), the UK (20.0 BE), Austria (19.2 BE), Belgium (12.9 BE), Spain (12.0 BE) and Italy (11.4 BE). The trade with The Netherlands is was in deficit (-3.9 BE), but the overall trading volume is one of the highest (58.0 BE imports, 54.1 BE exports). German trade with Greece had a 2009 surplus of 4.8 BE (1.9 BE imports, 6.8 BE exports).
This shows that Germany trades principally with its neighbours, and profits from the trade with the ClubMed countries (30.8 BE surplus with Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece). The net surplus of German trade with the 10 former communist countries is 6.3 BE, so not too important. However, the trade surplus with Greece is roughly comparable to the German part of the amount of money poured in via the EU regional development funds. The German sums to be paid (well, loaned actually) for the Greek rescue plan are of order 8 BE this year, and perhaps as much in 2011/12. Since German politicians can do these sums, it does not look attractive for them.
The positive German trade results stem partly from wage moderation imposed for years now, and will be hard to impose on the 'ClubMed' countries, who do not have the same industry (meaning both 'industrial plant' and 'work mentality'). One cannot help but note the huge imbalance in the German-French trade, and wonder whether it is structural as well.
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Nobody can predict. But here a guess: Greeks take to the streets when they hear of the austerity package being insisted on by the IMF/Germany. The country is paralysed and the Greek Govt is forced out of office. A new nationalist govt takes Greece out of EU and issues a new and greatly devalued currency, the Drachma.
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smroet - thanks for that.
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smroet;
That is not what I asked about. I am talking about the Eurozone and the EU as a whole. Trade among the countries within the zone is not the same as trade beyond the EU and Eurozone borders. That activity for one area, one country, one sector does well can be more than offset by others. This would be comparing it to the huge balance of trade deficit the US suffers. The net trade surplus or deficit should be considered IMO not in the lighyt of the total GDP for the group but the GNP. This is the GDP + profits repatriated from overseas minus profits repatriated by others from overseas. A net deficit indicates that wealth is flowing out of the aggregate and if that deficit grows faster than GNP, it indicates that the net worth of the aggregate is decreasing, that is it is being increasingly owned by others such as China.
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@ ChrisCamp: I thought the UK had created its own mess for the Pound, without need to be linked to the Euro problems?
As for Portugal and Spain, they have different problems. Portugal, like Greece is insolvent; Spain (and Ireland) are illiquid. Different ailments need different treatment (though the money- traders may not be sophisticated enough to spot the difference).
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#32 smoert
Thanks for the statistics, I think Marcus should do the further searching to prove Americas´ viability in this Globalized world.
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@Vasilis
You and your countrymen decided for the last 30 years to close your eyes to reality and live on borrowed money. Paying no taxes, obeying no law, working the absolutely minimum hours you can get away with. In addition you as a nation tolerated politicians who in other countries will be either in jail or on the fringes of civilized society. You cheered them on, you demanded no transparency and accountability knowing fully well what was happening but as you were doing all right Jack (Yiannis) you kept quite. The game is up and now you have to pay for your sins!
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Mathiasen @26 wrote:
"According to press reports Saturday midday the chief of the European Central Bank, Jean Claude Trichet, has said on the G20 meeting in Washington that there is no reason to expect that Portugese or Spanish economy will run into the problems Greece has. Let us hope he is right. It will make it a lot easier to solve the problem if it can be isolated to Greece.
Just a couple of weeks ago this was the 'news':
April 9 (Bloomberg) -- The euro strengthened for a second day against the yen, stocks rose and prices to insure against corporate defaults in Asia fell after European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet said Greece will be able to pay its debt. Greek bonds rose for the first time in two weeks.
Well, based on past experience of Trichet's comments I'd say Portugal and Spain are in worse shape than painted by the 'experts'.
Be afraid.
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Ian Francis @33,
Greece may or may not leave the euro.
What is apparent is that the euro - being a political construct - has been built on weak foundations and cannot continue to be underpinned by German, Swedish and Dutch productivity.
Either the PIIGS leave, or the the Germans will.
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#35 MarcusAurellius
America has other serious problems it must address.
One of the largest is that of its infrastructure
Both America and Eastern Europe have lived on their ´substance ´ One under Communism, the other under Capitalism but both for over 40 years. Any visitor to America can see the way the greed for profit leaves practically every town a disaster area. Cables and slums everywhere is more the norm rather than the exception.
Bridges, levies, rail networks all need replaced or repaired the same failings as under Communism.You started at opposite ends of the political spectrum --But met in the middle with ruins.
There is much still to do in Europe -the difference is that far fewer of us wave flags with our heads buried deep in the sand and saying `to hell with those who fall behind´ getting sand in our mouths.
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smroet -
Good information there!
I recall few weeks or so ago, when the Greece crisis became front page news, apparently French and Italians were asking for bail out and wanted German to fork out a good chunk. To which German chancellor kept repeating that Germany plays by rules and other (Euro-zone) countries should do the same and can do the same. At the time I didn't quite get it, I thought she was referring to Greek government mis-management. Seems like she was telling French and Italians hands off to German surplus from trading with rest of Euro-zone nations. Now one can say fair enough, Germans made their money following the rules and their industrious nature; and we know how important rules are to Germans; but this is not some sporting event where there is a referee to enforce the rules. Greece and other countries can just easily turn around and say rules shmoolz; and come up with there on rule: German on account of having the huge surplus fork out the most, or else boycott of German exports. Unfair? Changing the rule? punishing a nation for being industrious? Yes; but tough; they are the new rules! It ain't a football match you know.
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Nik, (repeat from hungary blog)
There is also on Economist site, an article on Greece, (more concervative site)
But, the Economist said, that defaulting by sovereign nations has been done recently successfully and that bonds in Greece (yields) are up because of ...whatever...so that is positive too. (IMO)
David
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I'm exhausted!
Just got back today from a '3' day jaunt to Brussels that started on Tuesday 13th April.
So, how must the Greeks feel!?
Knackered I venture to suggest!
Another "..fateful day.." in the EUro-zone!?
Mr Hewitt, maybe it's my weary frame of mind, but just how many more 'fateful days' can this EUro-zone & the Greeks experience before like my earthbound compatriots at Brussels Airport a sort of shattering 'Twilight Zone' of intuitive insight takes hold of all concerned? 'We're going nowhere fast & among the powers-that-be no one really gives a toss!'
Not the earie noises & bright lights of yesteryear, but from the depths of ordinary Citizens' misery & startled senses arises the notion, 'Enough is enough!' & 'Up with this we will not put!' Incredulous, bewildered Citizens struck by something so powerful they can neither see, hear nor feel gather in joint-amazement that they really are being told they must suffer & foot-the-bill.
Meanwhile, in the very same days the criminally irresponsible Politicians/Bankers/Investment Executives whose actions were so hyper-expensive continue their daily self-indulgent, gratuitous lives oblivious or indifferent to the suffering of millions about them!
Like the embattled Airlines & their often woefully neglected passengers probably the EU & EUro-zone will survive this particular ungovernable, unmeasured & threatening cloud of disruption: However, I suspect the Greek Peoples' dispute with Brussels' ideas is, like the Icelandic eruption, the first of many explosive civil disorders in the ensuing years of the decade. More serious clouds are developing (e.g. taxation-without-representation, immigration, Turkey etc.): They will gather pace as Citizens become aware of how little regard is paid to their actual views & standing within the institutions' framework. No amount of lip-service by EUrocrats about how Brussels 'feels the Citizens' pain/discomfort/anxiety' will be able to shelter the EU from what lays ahead.
When one listens & sees the misguided EU enthusiasts and venal Brussels' apparatchiks' considered views on each of the recent crisis it is painful how out-of-touch with reality they have become: The EU answer to the Economic Recession, "..more centralisation.."; its plans in response to the EUro-zone crisis, "..more central control.."; its instantaneous pronouncement on the Airline stoppage, "..more powers to Brussels.."
Over the last 20 years (post Maastricht) nothing within the EU has functioned effectively for its Citizens: It is a catalogue of failed enterprises; in every area of its increasing remit the EU 'one-size-fits-all' blanket has demonstrably brought about nothing but stagnation, ineptitude & near disaster. Yet, Brussels sticks to the tried and busted formula, '..Give us more power.. more authority.."!
It could not find a common policy for the Balkans's break-up to the EUro-zone to Turkish entry... It was sidelined on Global Warming & stymied on World Trade deals...
Still Brussels proclaims it has the answers to anything from volcanic ash clouds to the type of headwear in a Dairy Milkshed!
Alongside the defunct & discredited Soviet Union monopolistic central power & authority is the EU the prime example at international level of a blatantly obvious utter failure of a supra-National entity?
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QuietOakTree,
U should be ashamed of your outburst about DemocracyThreat....he has been here many years and at least HE writes well...(no offense, I owe this one to DemoThreat)
There, Mr. DemocracyThreat, redress in action :O)))))
Apart from that "owing of respect" I do believe--if anyone cares here--that banking is a "progressive aspect" of liberal thought. I do not know yet if there is such a thing as "Real Democracy," but I'd bet money on real banking and real things such money, interest rates, bonds, defaulting (Greeces one possible choice), and the facts of economics (sorry ye economics theory doubters)
There anything more and I'll be quite out of my ..depth (debt)...one HAS to believe when one is in debt (depth) :O)))))
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The Euro is far stronger than the pound will ever be. Greece's problems are nothing compared to the size of the Eurozone and the number of coins and notes in circulation. Long term Eurozone stability is therefore assured. Media hype over the wobbly future of the Euro is little more than headline seeking tosh.
Do we panic over the validity of the dollar every time a US state gets it's finances wrong? No. If that were the case - surely the day Mr Schwarzenegger was elected as Senator for California the dollar should have been trading just above toilet paper on the world markets?
"the day the euro needed rescuing" Mr Hewitt? I don't think so. The financial media perhaps...?
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Web Alice,
(this is also from another blog/thread but it may be of interest though
OFFSUBJECT AND SORRY to these posters here today)
Russia Against Napoleon: The True Story of the Campaigns of War and Peace. By Dominic Lieven. Viking; 618 pages; $35.95. Allen Lane; £30.
Here is a positive book about Russia (from the West? hhmmmm maybe) about Russia against Napoleon--says that Russia did a much better job than even Tolstory had thought against the French...even behaving very professional, little looting, wartime atrocitie (little done)
Any way its in the Economist site today reviewed and accessible from the home page from pics on top (that u click on for story)....I hope lol
you know the Economist and my 'little' ignorance on matters but that is a book I can ck out at a library soon.
Can you order your books from libraries:) (easy to do if can...they will look thru their all their branches, I think):)
Hope you are feeling much better, WA, I am (teeth stopped almost hurting this morning when I got up this morning)
David
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#42 u+
You see the problem when Germany says NO to the naughty crybabies who bought a new CD-Player, but can´t afford the CD´s.
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I would caution against moving the discussion too freely between public and private finances of any given state. Public finances tell you what the government is doing, how much it is spending and how much it must tax and so forth. Private import and export figures are nearly completely without real meaning.
For a start, exports are measured with respect to the global reserve currency, which is US dollars. And so when Germany created the EU currency, it instantaneously changed all its major trading partners into euro users. And thus when the US dollar fell against the Euro, Germany's export and import figures grew enormously, due only to a currency fluctuation that had very little to do with germany.
If the euro collapses, or if many of germanys trade partners leave the eurozone and return to devalued currencies, the inflated value of german industrial output will drop in terms of US dollars. Again, without much changing in terms of what goes on in german factories.
The other reason import and export figures are of limited use is because they include such weird and wonderful "products" as financial derivatives, interest payments, consultancy fees and so forth. So when germany created the euro and then produced a vast sum of the little critters from a hat in brussels and lent them to the emerging baltic states (et al), it created a huge amount of interest repayments which then flowed to Berlin as export earnings. Now that the baltic economies have tanked in a very bad way (et al) and these interest payments are not secure, it is clear that germany might lose a great deal of export income. It exported the capital, but it is not sure of earning the fees. So far it is applying the thumb screws to Latvia and friends, but the barrel is very nearly empty.
In addition, given the nature of the german political economy, not all export earnings flow to german shareholders. A vast amount of german industry is still owned by those who invested into it after the second world war. When the properties (corporations) so established by the investment capital draw their earnings in germany, it may well be that the true recipients are from third party states.
So all in all, it is not all that useful to look at broad import and export figures, if the aim is to understand what precisely is going on in the broader german economy. I'm not saying the figures are useless, by any stretch. But you would want to know what constitutes the greater part, before making statements about global economic strength.
If anyone is curious to see just how fickle import and export figures can be, a great history to read is the introduction of SEC legislation to the USA in the 70's. Prior to the new raft of corporate taxation legislation brought into american law in the seventies, companies in the USA, owned by americans and debt free, largely declared their income, their profits, and paid very little tax. And so the balance of imports and exports was hugely to the favour of the USA, as you'd have expected.
But after the SEC legislation, and the new regime for corporate taxation, a curious thing happened. All of a sudden, the majority of US companies developed vast, vast debts. Out of nowhere, it seemed. And so they began paying vast sums of their former profits in interest payments to their new found creditors. These creditors, as luck would have it, were generally situated in the Bahamas, the cayman islands and Switzerland: places with very low tax on such interest earning and neat, easy requirements for setting up private banking operations.
So all of a sudden, US "private debt" skyrocketed, and the import export ratio went completely sour.
But if anyone believes that wealthy americans suddenly got poor, they have rather missed the point entirely.
Anyway, this is not the place or the time to discuss the niceties of international trade. I'm bound to offend somebodies nationalistic pride. My main point is that we are probably better off talking about public finances, as these are our business. Quite literally, this is our childrens' money we are talking about. It is our business, and it is our money.
Look at what is happening to it, folks. Watch and tell me who is representing who in Europe today.
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#45 David
I apologized, but I am still no wiser.
Maybe you can explain ?
I have been through all the ´ -isms´ and their combinations I know and if I accept one statement as axiomatic the next one trips me up.
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Even with similar financial laws, such disparate governments attempting to use a common currency makes little sense. Congratulations to Britain for not jumping on the bandwagon.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#44
´Over the last 20 years nothing has functioned properly ----´
Have you forgotten Europe has been re-building Eastern and Southern Europe for the last 20 years and the Greeks are putting all this in jeopardy?
It is not only Western Europe who are angry with them, with much justification.
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QOT,
I know nothing bout nothing
oooo that sounded strangely wise...oooo so impressed w/aelf.
:O)))))
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I am UPSET as America needs money....we aways need money, but now we NEED money...Dont sc$*& it up, Germany and Greece.
"Money makes the world goi around,
the world goes around..."
"...Life IS a cabaret old chum,
Come to the Cabaret"
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I once told someone in 1995 that ...
"whilst the idea of economic union in Europe was a good idea in theory, it was fatally flawed in practise. The reason was because of 'Cultural and Nationalistic Differences'. Just like a country may have regional imbalances of employment and wealth, so that, for example, a particular geographic region of the United Kingdom may be known for a higher proportion of poverty and strife, so too, with the FORCED attempt of economic integration in Europe, we will probably see the international equivalent. This would mean that a previously sovereign national state in the new integrated Europe would become Europe's region of poverty and strife. With the relaxation of cross-border controls across Europe, this will encourage poorer people to migrate to the poorer regions of Europe, whilst richer people will tend to migrate to the richer regions of Europe. One problem with all this is that the current generation of people in Europe are not ready or willing to make this transition, and therefore this will prove unpopular among ordinary citizens.
I think, after ten years of having the euro currency and politicians forcing their 'Euro' ideology, that we are starting to see the ill-effects, starting with Greece, and this is but one chapter of a series of future history books about the 'downsides to the Euro'.
Lastly, I capitalised the word FORCED above, to emphasize that in order for the Euro idea to really work, just like any other system, policy, rule or law, there needs to be popular consensus - not just a majority vote.
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#49 Democracythreat
The plot thickens.
Didn´t the idea of one currency come from a Belgian or Frenchman ?
´If the Euro collapses or --´
Wouldn´t Germany return to a more stable D-Mark, using your own argument ?
How would the D-mark be an inflated currency in that case. It was one of the strongest before the Euro.
It is our business and our money ?
It appears that Germany is one of the few who is looking after you childrens´money and I am still not sure if you are complaining or thankful.
Or do I still not understand the fineness of your arguments ?
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39. At 8:01pm on 24 Apr 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
' ...
"According to press reports Saturday midday the chief of the European Central Bank, Jean Claude Trichet, has said on the G20 meeting in Washington that there is no reason to expect that Portugese or Spanish economy will run into the problems Greece has. ..." .. '
EUpris: That is not consistent with what a Portuguese bus driver told me some time ago. To aid any assessment of the value of that comment consider the following: A number of British taxi-drivers told me there was a recession on the way in England a long time before I heard of any economist being aware of it.
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Re: 44. At 10:11pm on 24 Apr 2010, cool_brush_work
EUpris: Nice that you are back. Another excellent post as so very often from your good self. Thank you!
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32. At 5:37pm on 24 Apr 2010, smroet wrote:
" ...
This shows that Germany trades principally with its neighbours..."
EUpris: Sorry to be pedantic but the way I read the figures you quote, they do no show that Germany trades principally with its neighbours. That may be the case, but your figures do not show it. They show that Germany's SURPLUS is primarily with its neighbours.
As I remember it from a time long ago when I used to check up on such figures, only about 50% of Germany's trade is with other "EU" countries.
If that point does matter, then it does so in so far as it indicates that it is possible to trade with other cou7ntries without the "EU".
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#51 Oldguy10
Soros and co. are also happy and waiting to pounce AGAIN.
#56 Enoggin
Considering many ( as Greece) are fighting to enter the Eurozone what is FORCED ?
´The current generation of people in Europe are not willing or ready to make the transition´ ???
The poor to poorer regions and the rich to richer regions ???
If I understand properly, The poor Poles, Bulgarians etc etc have gone to Britain because it is poor and very few at that !
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32. At 5:37pm on 24 Apr 2010, smroet wrote:
"...
German trade statistics ... (search for 'RangfolgeHandelspartner') ... surplusses with EU countries ... UK (20.0 BE) ..."
EUpris: So Germany has a trade surplus of 20 Billion Euros with the UK!!
There are those who say (threaten!) that if the UK were top leave the "EU"* we would not be able to get our exports into the "EU". Well, two can play at that game! So if they wouldn't take our exports, would we still take theirs?
Twenty billion = 20,000,000,000
Assuming 20,000 per job 20,000,000,000/20,000 = 1,000,000
That's one million jobs in Germany dependent on the SURPLUS alone.
How many jobs in Germany are dependent on the total trade with the UK?
The UK will not be in a weak position when negotiating/demanding/implementing a withdrawal from the "EU".
* Oh! How I long for that happy day! I am already identifying sites for "EU"-passport-burning-parties.
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Re: 33. At 5:40pm on 24 Apr 2010, Ian Francis
EUpris: They could end up with a military coup.
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@Mr enoggin
Please stick to facts. What the Greeks did is enter the Euro zone on fudged data. Ever since they entered the Euro zone they have deliberately undermined this currency by supplying fraudulent data to Eurostat. Way back in 2003 Eurostat requested to audit their books. The Pasok Greek government of Mr. Simitis refused point blank. Finally in the fall of 2004 the dam burst and the Greeks had to admit their fraudulence. Mr. George Papandreou was a senior minister in that administration. In September 2004 there was a scathing article in the London Financial Times, I quote "Greece's entry into the Eurozone was a sick joke" unquote. So you see when fraud enters into the equation I am afraid your conclusions are not valid.
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MaxSceptic wrote:
"What is apparent is that the euro - being a political construct - has been built on weak foundations and cannot continue to be underpinned by German, Swedish and Dutch productivity. "
Anyone spot the problem?
lol
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"Re: 44. At 10:11pm on 24 Apr 2010, cool_brush_work
EUpris: Nice that you are back. Another excellent post as so very often from your good self. Thank you!"
cute
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"If that point does matter, then it does so in so far as it indicates that it is possible to trade with other cou7ntries without the "EU". "
So you can have sex without being married? Well observed Sherlock.
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#62
One problem is the high quaiity of German goods if the Germans say NO. That is why they have the surplus.
Germany is not responsible for any feeling of inferiority you may have.
If you read the recent contributions on the previous blog you will be searching for book burning parties as a second choice out of desperation.
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@38 Canuck - Your comments insult me as a person. Let me attempt to give you a clearer image of things:
"You and your countrymen decided for the last 30 years to close your eyes to reality and live on borrowed money."
I only reached voting age some 8 years ago, so you cannot put everyone in this category.
"Paying no taxes, obeying no law, working the absolutely minimum hours you can get away with. In addition you as a nation tolerated politicians who in other countries will be either in jail or on the fringes of civilized society. You cheered them on, you demanded no transparency and accountability knowing fully well what was happening but as you were doing all right Jack (Yiannis) you kept quite. The game is up and now you have to pay for your sins! "
Paying no taxes - True, especially for the "freelance professionals" such as doctors, lawyers, notaries, etc. VERY untrue for whoever gets a salary, pension, income from sources that cannot be fudged such as rental property money, etc.
It is well admitted that a proportion of the Greek populace that cultivated this "cheating" mentality is to blame. The issues of Greece are systemic, and not temporary. However:
*Despite whatever you say, wages / salary levels here are abysmal. Having 14 "months" of payments makes no difference if your basic wage is at 750 EUR / month. The average wage from what I know is about 1,000 EUR, and you usually do not get that when first entering the market.
The prices here are on par with Germany or UK, though. A damn 1 lt. bottle of milk costs in several cases 1,25+ EUR when in UK and elsewhere it used to be much less.
I pity the Greek people for the politicians we got, voted in by people such as my grandma who used to vote "because that fellow looked better on TV", and the lot. I pity us for the non-existent regulatory authorities and consumer protection, which never succeeded to guard Greece from inflating prices. I pity us for having to pay an iced coffee 3,5 - 7 (!) EUR depending on the place you drink it at. I pity us for many things - But I cannot boldly accept that the blame lies in the entirety of the population.
Several things appear in a more hostile light than the truth, especially in international media. I know, the image of the country is tarnished, and we deserve the calls of shame in general - I merely ask for anyone judging Greece to be less absolute and resolute in passing the blame to all citizens alike. As in all societies, not all citizens are treated or benefited the same.
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#69
I would agree with you that when compared to the west salaries are low, while prices are about the same. What should we in Eastern Europe say when our prices are about the same as well, yet our incomes are not even HALF of what you quote for Greece (750-1000)!??? DO you know how a pensioner survives on 100 Euros a month, or a working family on 200-300 Euros? It is the biggest travesty in Europe at the moment and it has been for the past 20 years! I think Eastern Europeans, especially Bulgarians and Romanians should be the ones striking and protesting, yet we're not, since we're waiting for orders from Brussels like we used to for 40 years, but from Moscow! Our politicians are con-jobs who justify each decision with "Oh, the EU ordered this, or that..." and it is pathetic!
I think the whole debt crisis has more to do with the beginning of an end of an era (just like communism)...The mountains of debt were created deliberately by enticing the gullible politicians with the promise of postponing doomsday and keeping the power, whatever the cost! I am not quite sure what is behind all this, it just seems to be an eerie copy of the (E)USSR's regime for command and control of the subjected states - this time with the promise of europeanism v communism as the common ideology; the countries are being slowly stripped of their sovereignty and increasingly dependent on the EU. First it is the banking system, then the president and the foreign chief.
As Amshel Rothschild famously said: "I care not who makes the laws, just give control of the banking system, and I will control the affairs..."
I believe there's an end to this, nothing is just happening haphazardly; everything is pre-planned with ruthless precision. The ultimate goal? Centralize control of Europe into one government-the EU. How else do you rule over a continent such as ours?! After that comes the global one world government, and there you have it: One World Order-the ultimate goal. Latest evidence: G20 is pushing for a GLOBAL bank tax! Again, give me control of the banking system...
Personally, I am looking at some property in India... =)
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When people get maudlin here they don't go halfway do they?
Pre-planned control means a conspiracy which means 1 to 20 people,
but unfortunately too many people have to make up a conspiracy in this reality to carry out these "conspiracies."
Therefore thousands have to keep their mouths shut--not likely....not even Evil Nazis could do such a thing.
No offense to conspiracy lovers:)
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I mesn,
this is the kind of thing, "Tea Party" Republicans love to sputter on and on about...does that make Anyone think?
OOOps opened my mouth again.
:)
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What needs to happen in Greece is: All the thieving politicians, (and they all know exactly who they are); who have been pilfering EU funded projects for the 12 years I have lived here and probably for a lot longer, so called "business" men who refuse to pay their employees a proper and decent wage that includes IKA, (national health insurance), trying to outdo the tax system, and others, like hoteliers and local councillors, need to be taken to task over their personal earnings, outgoings and tax returns. Seems strange that at the end of the season Greeks cry poverty and yet within a few weeks there is a new Mercedes or BMW on the road and the wife has her little run around too, and the seasonal worker waiting for his end of season money doesn't get it because his employer can't afford it!!! I know personally of one local mayor who does "absolutely nothing" except walk around the village with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth, drink frappe and chat with his "mates" and gets paid 3000 Euro per month PLUS a 500 Euro petrol allowance. How can any community justify such a payment??? And my taxes are going toward this!!!! Yet they continue to pay this completely useless moron for his so called services. If Greece clamped down on this type of waste and expenditure which must be rife all across the country and not just in Rhodes, then maybe, just maybe, they could crawl back out of the hole they are in and get themselves out of debt. Another thing that the Greek government needs to do as a matter of urgency is get rid of all inclusive hotels. They are draining the lifeblood of the country. People go on their all inclusive holiday and never actually spend a cent, penny, zlotti or drachma in the country. Local businesses are going to the wall on a daily basis because of it. BTW, I am a foreigner in this country and have no say in the general running of the "system", even if I do vote.
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Either the people who rum the EU were born yesterday or they knew all along Greece and the other PIIGs were in dire trouble or eventually would be. Either way, the EU looses. A) they are fools or B) they are liars and crooks, take your pick.
The Germans went into this thing knowing exactly what they were getting into, they were among the leaders who drew the whole thing up. They went into it with their eyes wide shut. They can't walk away just now. First they will have to bail out all of those who are in it with them and are in trouble. Once they've bankrupted themeselves trying, then they can leave. So much for the superiority of German engineering. The EU is another Von Hindenberg and the spark has been lit. Oh the humanity, the humanity!
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Im not "pro-EU" anymore (as if that means anything, I, myself, being from the USA) but I am for a centralized government which DOES mean ..something EU--like.
Just give (or relent about) the local governments being local and wanting their power...they DO need it, do they not?
Maybe, the "Eurozone" is a good idea for the EU. Maybe it was not implemented well. (So, I'm wishy washy, but I am proudly so)
AND Greece does have a right to complain (I've "transcended" my previous views, well some, thanks to talking to WA and Nik ...they are very influential on me) But, Greece IS the oldest "democracy" and they do have the oldest recorded history (I think) in Europe (naturally). Sorry Romans.
But, hey, Im only human (not perfect, this fact is now "out.")
Being "out" IS good, HA! Sorry to all the women who "wanted me" ...tooooo bad, huh (I'm pretty sure none did). hehe
:)
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What really needs to be done is cancel plans for Ukraine joining NATO--invite both Russians and Ukrainians (right name?) into the EU instead.
America can't afford to defend all these "entities" and um..be independent--remember our "love affair with China?"
Ick, Ack, Ptueee, now that I think of it, invite us into the EU too, (with Mexico and Canada) So, with Russia/Ukraine and the USA in the EU and Eurozone, hmmm, maybe the so-called West will actually ..finally...exist...in reality.
Even China (I've read their comments at the Econ. site) says the West is a two-headed beast and therefore ..doomed. And they "know everything":O)))))
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Britain exists quite effectively within the EU whilst having its own currency. Let the Greeks go back to the
Drachma, and the same goes for any other member that runs up a ridiculous national debt.
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@EUpris #60
From the data source I quoted, you could have calculated that German imports from the EU + Switzerland amount to 58.1% ot the total imports, and German exports to the EU + Switzerland amount to 67.2%. If you add to this the numbers for Norway, Russia, the USA and China, it becomes 78.5% for the imports and 81.6% for the exports.
Your point is valid, though, German Eurozone imports are 35.5% of the total imports, Eurozone exports are 43.0% of the total exports, but the Eurozone SURPLUS is 80.6% of the total surplus.
@MA-II #35
I answered 2 of the questions in the last paragraph of your post #11. The other 2 questions, and your point about the GNI/GDP difference, are much harder to tackle, since I do not find readily available statistics. Maybe you can work it out yourself :-) ?
Anyway, from the website you suggested a while ago on another thread, I find that the GNI/GDP ratio is 83% for the USA and the UK, roughly 80% for the core-Eurozone countries (Germany, France, Benelux, Austria and Finland), 70% for Italy and Ireland, near enough 60% for Spain and Portugal, 54% for Greece, and only 18% for Russia and 16% for China.
This points to major differences in ownership status of the means of production in various countries. I.e. the GNI/GDP ratio is 120% for Japan and 110% for Switzerland, presumably due to the excess ownership of car plants 'overseas' (Japan) and pharmaceutical plants / bank branches 'overland/overseas' (Switzerland; I'm guessing here). But all of these statistics are just indicative, and only a more exhaustive study would real answer your questions about this.
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Berlin,
ARD, German Television 1, has published an article by one of its correspondents at the stock exchange in Frankfurt am Main, Klaus-Rainer Jackisch on the Euro crisis. The article is dealing with the question, “who brought Greece down?”
Speculators in particular in the Anglo-Saxon world including hedge-fonds managers in New York have now opened the champagne. They have forced the Euro down through an attack on Greece and now that the Euro has lost some value the make the profit. Also Jackish writes that they have depicted the Greek economy worse than it actually is. (To this I have to add that the IMF meeting yesterday was fearing that the 45 billion to Greece is not enough.)
Jachish is citing the leading economist of HSBC Trinkhaus, who says that there has been a massive speculation in Greek inability to pay its bills. The market strategist Folker Hellmeyer from Bremer Landesbank says that speculators have spread false rumours in order to bring Greece down. Rating agencies have been useful tools in an unholy alliance, who has orchestrated the attack on the Euro, Jacisch also observes.
I shall not go into any speculations on the difference between public interests and private interests. The only lovers of speculators are speculators and market radicalists, but we should of course not forget that the Greeks have been very active in making themselves a target of speculators.
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The fundamental problem is that the foundations upon which the EU is built are flawed. The expansion of the EU, its lack of democracy, its centralization of control and inability to manage its accounts are all part of the all part of the mix of the weak foundations. The main driver of the EU is political ambition and power. The Greek financial problem is merely a symptom or sign of what is wrong with the EU. I expect that a solution will be fudged. I would like to see the EU working because the fall out from failure will impact on many but I fear that like so many centralised, ideological political entities it will fail unless there are major changes. The question is whether the politicians will learn the real lessons from the Greek problem? Does a leopard change its spots?
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How humilitating. The mighty Euro is facing a foreign intervention. I fear that this is going to cost the United Kingdom at a time when we can ill-afford to divert money. Our new government should make it absolutely clear that we are not to be a part of this financial disaster. Leave it to the Germans to sort out.
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The Germans, #81, are lately only good at determining where the "threat" is coming from (those nasty speculators--official German stance--and not good at solutions nor implementing these "speculative solutions.")
So, maybe the EU should stand back and let the IMF take the glory--oops the blame for this crisis (oh yeah and those nasty fascist speculators.)
They-Germans-will feel better tomorrow about everything if they just do this thing. They ARE a responsible nation, but nervous about newish processes...maybe later they will have confidence after dealing with this problem this time.
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EUpris: Thanks for the support - - pleased to see You continue to present the arguments that so annoy the 'pro-EU'. Only by constantly picking at the various structures & exposing as delusion the supposed benefits & strengths of this EU will the argument be won. Keep going.
Gheryando & #66: Jealousy is unbecoming!
Quietoaktree & #53: No, had not "..forgotten EUrope has been rebuilding.." most of the 'East' and 'South' of Europe. However, unlike You, I have not conveniently overlooked the increasingly sluggish 'West EUrope' economies post-1989 were in as much need of the influx of cheap Eastern European Labour & the investment opportunities in the East for a revival of their fortunes as were the East Nations for their post-Soviet restructuring & recovery.
Unfortunately for the EU the bubble of economic expansion eastwards is nearing an end: The EU's stagnating, one-size-fits-all approach to supra-National policy/issues is yet again negatively affecting all EUrope. Hence continental/British Isles Nations emergence from the World Recession is at a markedly slower pace than any other region.
Another example of 'failure' by the entity entitled EUropean Union!
MAII & #74: I am sure I am not alone in appreciating Your ingenuity in concluding #74 with the US Broadcaster's tearful depiction of the burning Rigid Airship.
Good stuff - - now why not try to maintain that quality of content & context.
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In all seriousness the EU is an EUSSR !
The USSR lasted aproximately seventy years , ultimately failing and was completely broke at the end . Since the break up of the Soviet Union and indepedence of the former satellite states . Russia has formed with them a Commonwealth of Independent States . The EU should have been a Commonwealth of Independent States !
The Euro was created for purely political reasons ; without any serious thought given to the economies of the individual member states .
Neither Greece nor Italy should ever have been invited to join the Euro or have been accepted by the EU . I cannot speak for Greece ; but prior to Italy joining , it was common knowledge that Italy was desperately in debt and had falsified the books to join . If everyone in Italy knew and laughed about it ; I am certain that the European Commission knew as well .
If the Euro allowed mediterranean peoples to travel in other European countries , with the value of their money all the same , it was a disaster for their economies at home . In Italy the cost of living raised 30% in the first year and continued to rise . Mediterranean countries were immediately disadvantaged , losing the cheap tourism they were able to offer before . Spain built a large housing market , I suspect largely based on retirement homes for north Europeans .
People in Brussels must sit at their desks dreaming up how to turn the EU into an Utopia , without any thought of reality .
An example probably not only applicable to Europe . Health and safety regulations . When you want to build a house you will probably use scafolding . The cost of insurance for scafolders is prohibitably expensive ; so the cost of building a house is also hugely expensive .
You may laugh at my example and say so what ; but there are many examples of EU regulations that have had the same effect .
Prime Ministers and other ministers of member states are equally to blame ! The ordinary people of member states , increasingly find they have no say . In the present British general election campaign , the EU should be a major issue . British politicians find it easier to go with the flow , with their eye on a cushy overpaid job in the future . The kind of people who become politicians today has deteriorated . I am against career politicians who have no experience or knowledge of business and real life , for whom it is all a political theory .
I do not see the German people accepting bailing out Greece ( Italy , Spain and Portugal ). Why should they , to save the face of the EU and protect the Euro . I would recommend all countries of the Eurozone to return to their original currency , before its too late , when the Euro colapses anyway .
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CGAN
re #80
Your assessment is accurate, concise and wholly on the button of all that is wrong with the EU.
I would only differ in saying no such supra-National entity can ever be a good thing as over time the inevitable anti-Democratic features at its core will always over-ride the Citizens' Rights & Responsibilities.
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Larry
Re #73
"...this completely useless moron.." & "...I pay my taxes towards this.."
You are clearly familiar with the basic unDemocratic tenets & exploitative principles governing the Brussels-EU complex & directing its attitudes/interests in Citizens' lives.
Are You in favour of an EU!?
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Mr. Hewitt;
Take a look at Bild Zeitung today. In an interview finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble is calling the assistence to Greece a national interest to Germany.
You can be absolutely sure that if it comes to a case in Karlsruhe the German government will use this argument again.
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Re:
65. At 00:44am on 25 Apr 2010, Gheryando wrote:
MaxSceptic wrote:
"What is apparent is that the euro - being a political construct - has been built on weak foundations and cannot continue to be underpinned by German, Swedish and Dutch productivity. "
Anyone spot the problem?
lo
EUpris: No mention of yodelling, leather trouser slapping South Tyroleans. Do you get funny looks in London?
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68. At 00:59am on 25 Apr 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
" ...
If you read the recent contributions on the previous blog you will be searching for book burning parties as a second choice out of desperation."
EUpris: Not at all.
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The problems as I see it:
The populations of Greece, Ireland, Poland etc. did not join the EU for purely selfless, ideological reasons.
They saw Italy and its like get rich on other peoples' money and decided they wanted the same.
The austerity measures that the "Club Med" countries need to take to save the Euro are not temporary, they're permanent. They equate to broken dreams, and if there is ONLY wailing and gnashing of teeth, we can consider ourselves most fortunate.
Analogise the Eurozone to the British economy:
Picture the problems if both the CoL(Germany) and Southwark(Greece) were permitted to govern themselves, setting their own budgets.
CoL has huge income, lowering the need for public spending, Southwark spends like a man with no arms.
CoL and Southwark are united in nationality, and there is little argument regarding the fact of "subsidy".
Well Frane/Germany, if you want to socially engineer a single European entity, you have to cough up for the Greeks, the Irish, the Poles, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, et al.
If you're not prepared to subsidise these countries, why let them join the EU/Euro in the first place?
Only financial bronchitis will save the Euro.
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Rumours of the Euro's demise have been highly exaggerated. The Euro is still a fairly new currency and people are unwise to expect its termination every time it takes a small dive. Other currencies like the American Dollar, the Russian Rouble or the Turkish Lira have seen much worse and the British Pound Sterling has been declining for the most part of 60 years.
I do not expect this to be the end of the Euro or the European Union.
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EUpris
since no one pointed it out and you obviously didn't get it either I will tell you: The problem here
"What is apparent is that the euro - being a political construct - has been built on weak foundations and cannot continue to be underpinned by German, Swedish and Dutch productivity. "
is very simple: Sweden does not use the Euro. Half knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance.
I don't wear traditional gear. I had lederhosen once. I was 3.
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MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Either the people who rum the EU were born yesterday or they knew all along Greece and the other PIIGs were in dire trouble or eventually would be. Either way, the EU looses. A) they are fools or B) they are liars and crooks, take your pick. "
I concur entirely. In fact i think I may have said the same thing earlier, but without your admirable American efficiency with words.
And yet Hewitt is writing his journalism as though we, the non-voting public AND the politicians, are all on the outside looking in on some mysterious problem which just arose out of the mist.
I find that aspect of western culture, the willful sycophancy of the "free press", the most disturbing thing about our system of corporate controlled representation. At least in the soviet system everybody knew that there was the KGB who would come visit you if you said the wrong thing in public.
Under corporate rule, journalists are free to say whatever they want, whenever they want. But it seems that if they say the wrong thing even once, they will never get another job, a promotion or a reference. It is money, not the KGB, which controls the press in the western system, and the money is dangled from above like a lure for greedy fish.
Or perhaps it is something else? Perhaps Chomsky is correct, and journalists who are not sycophants to power are weeded out of the selection process very early on in their careers, until the only people left are those who will search high and low for the party line, to understand what it is they are supposed to think today.
Anybody would think, reading this blog and any other mainstream "analysis" that this crisis of public debt was a natural phenomenon. You'd be forgiven for thinking that nobody ever made any money out of the debt, and that no politician ever received a career boost from a sponsor by facilitating the creation and spending of public debt.
It all "just happened", and now the party member politicians are exactly the people to put it right. Somehow. Nobody is making money from the debt, there is no self interest at stake.
What a farce of reason. The entire issue we are discussing is greece's ability to pay tax revenue to private creditors of the state. The whole subject revolves around the money, and the private interests being served at the expense of public finances. The IMF is an institution devoted to ensuring public money gets paid to private creditors. That is all it does.
But Hewitt tells us that the party members who oversaw the process of giving the public money away to private interests will save us. He says they are going to " set up a mechanism to deal with similar crises in the future."
It's an offensive joke. All the party members and their banker buddies from the IMF will do is try to squeeze every last drop of blood from the electorate. As long as the investment class receive their money, they don;t care what happens.
The only reason there is a "crisis" in the first place is because the bankers can't squeeze any more money out of greece. And the role of the politicians is not to share the blame between bankers and themselves, and to spare the public hardship, but rather to find some way, any way, of ensuring the bankers get their money.
Because the very idea of the bank owners losing money... or rather not making the profits they expect, is what constitutes a "crisis" for the party members of Europe. That is the big deal, the only thing which really matters. It is the reason the EU was established: to ensure that party members were not distracted by popular opinion from their fundamental and principle task.
In germany now the people are outraged that they might be forced to pay more tax so that the bankers who lent to greece receive their private profits.
And what is the response from party members from all parties? They feel more power should be passed to the EU, because in future the problem of german people objecting to paying more tax so that idiot Euro bankers get their private profits can be more easily avoided. Note that the problem is opinions of the german taxpayers, and the solution is to move power to the EU to avoid their opinions. Note the uniform agreement across all party lines that the bankers should receive their private rewards for insanely stupid private investment schemes designed only to enrich themselves.
The only thing that no journalist and no party member can say or think in Europe today is that stupid investment decisions by bankers should result in those people losing their private fortunes. that thought is taboo. Everything else is OK.
Europe is a human farm.
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@ MAII: the way the EU was constructed - and the way national leaders have insisted upon ever since - is that EU distributes the funds but the spending of and the accounting for that spending is done by the nation-states themselves. So, however much the (under-resourced) Commission suspected Greece (or any other country) of dodgy accounting, they were always blocked.
The fact that the Greek case has shown up the weakness of such a system won't mean that it will change. NB most EU countries have found themselves in difficulty in explaining where and how all their allocation of funds went (UK included). Only Greece (long suspected) has been found (so far) to have deliberately cooked the books. Others "seem" to have merely been negligent......
More generally: SovJohn and Larry explain the real problems facing the Greek government now. The ordinary (more honest) worker usually pays his/her taxes. Professionals and others with even barely reasonable accountants don't. There is too much systemic fraud (as SovJohn explains). Just how can central government clean out all the little pockets of fraud and deceit - in country villages and rural towns, or even in the big cities? Especially when the Civil Service is said to be stuffed full of political appointees.
Also, a Greek default would create more eurozone chaos. Guess whose banks are already heavy with Greek debt? France, Germany, and other EU countries.
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Greek suspicions of any IMF involvement in a rescue package are well founded.
Having just read the BBC account of IMF head Msr Strauss-Kahn's latest pronouncements on the Greek crisis it is impossible not to conclude the IMF approach to resolving the issue has 2 main interests:
1) Is the IMF's straightforward intention to Global maintain its present dominance by exposure of the EUro-zone to multi-national pressure & in proving the point to the EU/EUro-zone it will be at cost to Greece.
2) The duplicitous nature of the IMF's present leadership (Strauss-Kahn) is an unedifying sight.
Anyone who who cares to examine (the man's record has been well-known across Financial EUrope for decades) the manners, attitudes & doctrinal beliefs of Msr Dominique Strauss-Kahn will quickly come to realise the IMF boss is an intellectual snob & financial pariah of the first order.
His ability to empathise with the ordinary Greek Citizen is nil: Whether through upbringing, education or general disposition the man simply does not have that sensitivity to the plight of 'common man' in his nature.
When such in-bred lack of understanding is coupled to being head of the institution charged with developing hard-headed & business-orientated terms for a Financial deal with Greece then every Greek Citizen should feel grave alarm.
With Strauss-Kahn at the helm there is no possibility of any IMF arrangement that offers the Greek Citizens anything but years of financial expropriation of their personal wealth in order to serve and protect the corrupt & venal interests of 'big-Business/big-Government' centred on the IMF's, EU's & Greece's major institutions.
Wrote it before and do so again: Athens beware! Beware Brussels-IMF bearing false hope of fairness & a just redress and alleviation of Greece's difficulties.
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@Canuck 38.
Although Greece has many failings and certainly many things have to change (this applies more or less to most countries, I admit more to Greece now), many of your facts are wrong in their generality and for this reason outright lies and on top you accuse collectively all Greeeks (including Greek many workers in minimum wages who complained about many problems) for all the wrong doings. I do not thing that your posts are fair and it seems that you have a certain prejudice against the Greek nation probably for other reasons. Anyway, I hope you feel better with these posts that you write. I am not going to take them seriously from now on.
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Gheryando
Re Your #65 & #92 concerning MaxSceptic #40
Whilst I spotted the original intention of your remark I felt no need to comment, but now do so, as accuracy works both ways in this case.
Sweden has indeed retained the Kronor: However, it does accept EUro-currency almost everywhere, but all returned monies are in Swedish coinage. I can attest to this by personal experience as recently as February 2010.
Due to high prices I generally avoid shopping in non-EUro Denmark, but I believe the same money-exchange applies in most of its businesses etc.
The British Pound was also accepted in a couple of the places along the route Stockholm to Malmo with the same proviso on the 'change' received.
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@cool_brush_work
I agree with the tone of your post and the fears are shared by many Greek citizens now who will be paying for the failings of others (Greeks, I do not accuse anyone else). However, many Greeks including myself who have been advocating structural changes in the economy, serious taxation etc. for year may see this as an opportunity if it does done properly. If these are made with the view to modernise the economy and put Greece in the right track it will be a bless for the future. However, if these are made with the only objective to pay back the whole of the accumulated debt it will be a disaster. In my opinion, there should be a bold haircut of the debt so that the changes are implemented without suffering that will collapse the country and will bring not only misery and catastrophe but also a total default which is worse than a haircut.
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Gheryando @92.
Mea Culpa! You are quite correct to point out my error.
It came about because I'm used to listing the EU's nett contributors - a very small list - that includes the industrious Swedes.
This error, however, does not invalidate my original comment (@40), but actually strengthens it: as there are therefore fewer productive Eurozone countries.
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cbw
"as accuracy works both ways in this case."
Yes. I agree. But where is your point in this case?
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MaxSceptic
"It came about because I'm used to listing the EU's nett contributors - a very small list - that includes the industrious Swedes."
Here is your "small" list of net contributors:
Austria
Cyprus
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Italy
Netherlands
Sweden
UK
source: open europe
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I am very pleased to see that despite their problems and against the stereotypes, south european countries such as Cyprus and Italy are net contributors. I only hope that my country (after few or many difficult years) aspires to become one. I believe that it can.
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"The Germans, #81, are lately only good at determining where the "threat" is coming from (those nasty speculators--official German stance--and not good at solutions nor implementing these "speculative solutions.")"
The threat to Germany was invented by...Germany itself and France. THEY were the ones who engineered the particulars of the EU, THEY were the ones who engineered the single currency tying their own economies to those of countries that were economically much weaker and politically corrupt, THEY were the ones who first insisted on the growth and stability pact in Maastrict, then violted it, then had it erased from the map, and they were among those who allowed the books of these countries to go unaudited to find out what kind of condition those countries were really in. So what is one to make of it when one day years later they suddenly wake up to discover... OH what a surprise! The whole thing is a mess. We never knew or suspected. So much for German engineering (we all knew French engineering stinks anyway.)
The Germans are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't dilemma. If they bail out Greece they are not only merely buyng time until the next installment comes due, they are setting a precedent for the other PIIGS who will also require bailouts. That could be like throwing good money after bad so giving Greece more money now just ups the ante for their risk. That is why they are not going to be any less reticent to act on the Greek bailout than the IMF unless Greece shows some radical reforms. But even if Greece complies, there is no assurance that Greece will turn itself around and become capable of paying off these loans.
But if the Germans don't, then the worst case fear of the unknown is that the whole Euro scheme will start to come unraveled and their economy with it, at the very least be seriously depreciated in value. (This is why the distinction between the balance of trade between the EU and Eurozone countries and the rest of the world is important. Germany's exports to the rest of Eruope mean nothing if they are offset by imports by others especially from beyond EU borders like China.)
The root cause of it as I said all along was the whole purpose of the EU from the start, to build a European superstate that would challenge the US. Chirac and DeVillepin said so explicity over and over again. Even that didn't work except on paper. In the real world Europe is just a collection of several dozen Dutchies. Pathetic if you are on the inside, hillarious if you are on the outside watching from a safe distance. Why President Obama has gotten involved in something that is none of America's business would be a complete mystery were it not for the fact that his inexperience leads him to stick his nose into everything except the two things that are of importance to Americans, its own national security and its own economy. Both are still in serious trouble over a year into his administration and the political consequences to the Democrats for it this fall are ominous to say teh least.
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From the same statistic as before you can observe that Greece is a net recipient.
Each Greek receives approximately €2238 over the current budget period.
So good luck re, Vassilis. I don't know if I believe it. I surely hope so, though.
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# 102 Vassilis
Please take comfort that our poor ( America ) would gladly change places with the Greeks (or Bulgarians etc)
Europe is indeed complaining from a level of luxury unknown to most of us here.
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Gheryando
My point+
Well, no different from yours, I suppose.
You were trying to point out Sweden wasn't in the 'zone' & at the same time have a little dig at MaxS.
I just wanted to even things out a bit: Afterall, a level playing field is all any of us want, isn't it!?
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@Gheryando
'Hope is the thing with feathers....'
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Just as Sweden is not a euro country, and Iceland not a member of EU,
Cyprus is not a South European country.
This speck of an island (or more precisely not much more than a half of it) is located next to Syria.
What does it do in EU - is a very good question.
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cbw
I agree again. However, what does the fact, that they "accept" euros have to do with the underlying argument that he was wrong?
I pointed it out because it is an example of the all-too-often seen benighted populism that eu-haters love to evince.
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and feathers from Greece are known to be made from wax..
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Gheryando @101,
Thanks for the list (interesting that that 'non-Country' Belgium is a nett recipient, as is Luxembourg - a 'country' that has the world's largest per capita GDP according to the World Bank).
My argument @40 still stands, however. Of the 10 countries listed, the UK, Sweden and Denmark are not in the eurozone; and Cyprus is an irrelevant minnow.
Furthermore, I doubt that France and Italy's contributions are as significant (per capita) as those of Germany and the Netherlands. I'm sure you'll be happy to correct me if I'm wrong.... ;-)
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Why does the IMF alway think deficits shoudl be removed only by cutting spending? Surely closing the gap by raising taxes is a valid measure as well?
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Ufff to all the greeks in this board, why don't you tell your government to tell the banks that the government owes them money here is the deal: "you lend us money at the same rates as everyone else in the Euro zone, or you don't get back even one Eurocent" It is such a simple solution, either they continue to support you through restructure or they walk away and you have zero debt! Ok some public servants will not get paid but so what? With the restructure you have to do now, they will not get paid anyhow :)
Regarding imports/exports etc. it is not as you export a great deal as it is, and you just stop importing more than you export.
You could show the way and make the EU a better place for everyone, with the banks been there to serve the public and not the other way around.
Your government and you could choose what way to develop instead of having the IMF, EU, banks, etc. what way to develop and how to live. I just don't get it what your politicians fear, are they that stupid not to realise that they hold the strong card in this game of chicken?
Money the way it is today is based on nothing! How banks get rich and control commercial activity is based on the promise that the person that signed to buy some debt from the bank will honor that debt, if that person or government doesn't honer that debt the bank has nothing.
If you government needs money it should make its own money not pay the banks interest to get money, it is a non sense situation.
Just do it and free us all from the tyrany of the banks. The German government may be a bit unhappy about it, but who cares? There is nothing they can do about it. They can only look important if you keep asking them for money!
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Gheryando
Re #109
No, as MaxSceptic has added & certainly from previous posts by him it is clear, he put 'Sweden' without intentionally wanting to mislead.
Also as he has stated his basic contention remains accurate & closer to Economic-Fiscal reality than the fantasy-zone of unified-statistical invincibility You & other 'pro-EU' are so keen to evince!
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#108
@powermeerkat
Good to see you can also ask ridiculous questions :)
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#112,
Very valid observation! Most likely healthier for the economy also.
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Powermeerkat
Cypriots - at least the Greek speaking ones, are, without doubt a European people, in culture, language and ethnicity.
Now Hawaii...
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MaxSceptic
I agree. Luxembourg gets ridiculous amounts of money...Small as they may be.
To answer your question:
Contribution of Italy per head: 778
Contribution of UK per head: 937
Contribution of France per head: 805
Contribution of Germany per head: 1045
Contribution of Sweden per head: 1207
Contribution of Netherlands per head: 1467 (the highest)
Same source as above and all numbers in euros.
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#113 ChrisArta
So you are willing to destroy the savings and pension funds of the Germans at one stroke of the pen ????
That is 80 million lives financially ruined !!!
I am sure you will agree that your attitude towards innocents are approaching that of MarcusAurellius.
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"The fundamental problem is that the foundations upon which the EU is built are flawed. The expansion of the EU, its lack of democracy, its centralization of control and inability to manage its accounts are all part of the all part of the mix of the weak foundations. The main driver of the EU is political ambition and power. The Greek financial problem is merely a symptom or sign of what is wrong with the EU. I expect that a solution will be fudged. I would like to see the EU working because the fall out from failure will impact on many but I fear that like so many centralised, ideological political entities it will fail unless there are major changes. The question is whether the politicians will learn the real lessons from the Greek problem? Does a leopard change its spots?"
I agree. The EU is lacking democratic legitimation and institution.
It is undermining the sovereignty of democratic nations by undemocratic means. The Council of the European Union alone is diametrally contradicting any concept of checks and balance, you would think those ministers sitting in there never opened their own countries` constitutions. Ministers, in their respective countries, are not part of the legistlative, yet the council allows them to pass laws which can overrule national law.
But there is another point of concern: rating angencies.
Bob McTeer, former Fed Reserve of Dallas Pres, wrote on his blog:
"Yesterday, we saw a sharp market reaction when one of the rating agencies that gave AAA ratings to mortgage-backed securities larded with subprime loans called into question the credit worthiness of Britain. As is the case with the United States and the Federal Reserve, Britain and its Bank of England have the ability to create new money if necessary to pay off its debt at maturity. There is no sovereign credit risk. There is no need for credit rating agencies to opine on the credit worthiness of sovereign debt."
Private institutions cannot be allowed to bring down sovereign countries and the ECB should be urged into installing its own rating system.
I better stop here in order not to rant about the black hole which is called "financial markets" ;)
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MaxSceptic -
"My argument @40 still stands, however. Of the 10 countries listed, the UK, Sweden and Denmark are not in the eurozone; and Cyprus is an irrelevant minnow."
in that sense, the only relevant one is the UK. Sweden and Denmark both have GDP's lower than London.
Furthermore, of those countries, one is very likely to join the euro soon and the other one will follow suit after.
The only one holding out is the UK.
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cbw
"Also as he has stated his basic contention remains accurate & closer to Economic-Fiscal reality than the fantasy-zone of unified-statistical invincibility You & other 'pro-EU' are so keen to evince!"
this is your opinion and yours only. An opinion cannot dispute facts, it can only interpret them.
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ThirstyMan,
I agree with you. I am not as fatalistic though.
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@93
"In germany now the people are outraged that they might be forced to pay more tax so that the bankers who lent to greece receive their private profits.
And what is the response from party members from all parties? They feel more power should be passed to the EU, because in future the problem of german people objecting to paying more tax so that idiot Euro bankers get their private profits can be more easily avoided. Note that the problem is opinions of the german taxpayers, and the solution is to move power to the EU to avoid their opinions. Note the uniform agreement across all party lines that the bankers should receive their private rewards for insanely stupid private investment schemes designed only to enrich themselves."
I am also quite confused about the way most of German media are discussing the Greek problem.
They don`t hesitate to show pictures of Greeks protesting against financial cuts, even going as far as to burn their university degrees.
But rarely you see the media questioning the rating agencies or financial markets(i.e. speculators) and their role in this mess.
And politicians are mostly talking about things like "solidarity" and strengthening the EU.
You could get the impression that the financial markets are some kind of holy cow to them. Impervious, infallible and aloof from responsibility of any kind.
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#120 DurstigerMan
Every society has its failings, obviously you do not know those of Greece.
The EU has nothing to do with them or Britain´s for that matter.
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#126 Durstigermann
Apparently you are never at home when such things are discussed on German TV or do not read a respectable newspaper ?
My experience of Germans showed a knowledge of current affairs that any government would fear.
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@125 quietoaktree
could you elaborate on how the EU has nothing to do with it?
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tpw
"Why does the IMF alway think deficits shoudl be removed only by cutting spending?"
Because that's how the governments they loan to got into trouble in the first place, they spent more than they took in. The IMF is not a charity, they don't give money away, it's more like a mechanism for a bridge loan. But the IMF will not make loans to those who will not or cannot demonstrate that they will restore financial responsibility and live within their means so that they can pay the loans back. If Greece or anyone else feels the IMF is there to allow them to go back to business as usual, they went to the wrong place for help. The answer will be no. Germany appears to be saying the same although it isn't clear if they really mean it.
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#127 durstigermann
Yes.
My first visits to Greece was at the time of the Dictatorship and before the Cyprus debacle. It was obvious that the society had many problems it had not yet faced. The civil war, the Dictatorship itself, Cyprus and also its problems with Turkey.
You may have gathered on many BBC blogs such as this that such topics are still very real for Greeks. Unlike Germany who has faced its history and apologized, Greece would rather alter history or avoid the subjects.
That is why the EU has nothing to do with Greece´s failings.
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@126 quietoaktree:
I do read Financial Times Germany, FAZ and Spiegel. Not every day though.
And there are good articles and discussions (on TV as well).
But don`t mix this up with the mainstream media most people follow.
What knowledge did those Germans show to you that a Government would fear them?
Could you give me examples?
Because my experience seems to differ from yours.
I found that German media can be quite biased. Take the riots in Tibet and in Urumqui as an example.
As someone who lived in Asia for some time and followed asian media, there is no doubt in my mind that German reporting was manipulative
and biased against the PRC. Vital information and data was withheld, pictures from Nepal sold as proof for Chinese brutality, you name it.
Heck, even the Taiwanese media was more neutral.
From my point of view, quite a few Germans THINK that they are better informed and more knowledgeable than the rest of the world (oh those stupid Americans!!!)
An erroneous judgement.
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#124. At 4:32pm on 25 Apr 2010, DurstigerMann
Berlin,
You wrote among other things: “But rarely you see the media questioning the rating agencies or financial markets (i.e. speculators) and their role in this mess.”
As I mentioned in #79 rating agencies are criticised in Klaus-Rainer Jackisch’ article on ARD.
You also wrote: “You could get the impression that the financial markets are some kind of holy cow to them.”
At the IMF meeting this weekend USA and Germany have proposed a tax on banking. It was not agreed on because India and Canada were against it. I don’t know the position of the UK, but chancellor Merkel has many times talked about the necessity of a regulation of the financial sector.
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Gheryando @118,
Thanks for the figures.
So it seems that each Greek 'receives' funding equivalent to that donated by one German and one Swede. (Bearing in mind that these are per capita figures and the relative population sizes, it remains the case that German and Swedish taxpayers are paying a substantial amount of their taxes to the Greeks, the Belgians, the Luxembourgois, etc. etc.
I'm sure they/(we) are delighted to do so. [Yeah, right!]
As for your comment @121, after recent events (and events shortly to occur with the precarious economies of the other PIIGS) I doubt whether there will be any serious demand by Danish or Swedish voters to join the euro.
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MaxSceptic
You're welcome. Regarding to who benefits from those Germans and Swedes, isnt it the same question as asking who benefits from taxing the richer areas of England, lets say London, which are used to help poorer regions.
In the end its the same and only the idea of "what is the entity". In the EU case, its the EU. Transfers from richer areas to less well-off are nothing new and constitute the basic support that comes with political union.
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"I doubt whether there will be any serious demand by Danish or Swedish voters to join the euro."
The Danish krona is basically the same thing as the Euro. It is part of ERMII and the only reason they haven't changed it yet is because of the typical fear of smaller countries to lose their identity (Yes, I know, its ridiculous to define yourself with a currency..). Once the current mess is dealt with and better structures are in place, pragmatism will most definitely triumph over nostalgia.
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Quietoaktree
Re #129
Quote, "..that is why the EU has nothing to do with Greece's failings."
What a classic 'pro-EU' view of any event/situation involving the EU in a debate about its efficacy and credibility: As ever, when all is plain sailing the 'pro-EU' insist it is all down to the brilliance of the EU structures etc. And the moment something goes wrong it must be the fault of the independent Nation's structures!
When will the 'pro-EU' start to offer a little sense of humility and decent perspective?
We have 'pro-EU' on these Blogs declaring that 'ever closer union' was the intention from 1956 and the EU is the result of an evolutionary process removing/replacing National authority & power with that of a supra-National Brussels entity.
Then there is a problem in a Memeber Nation: Suddenly the EU is not to be found, is not to be held accountable, is not to be in the frame for inappropriate policy-making, and apparently all the intentions & evolution since 1956 are NOT to be seen as a part of the issue!?
What a load of double-talk: Which in the case of the EUro-zone & Greece's double-accounting policies is actually quite apposite!
It is true a very large part of Greece's Economic woes can be laid at the door of Greek Governments' & Peoples' longtime financial irregularities.
It is not true to assert none of the blame can be apportioned to the EU.
Greece signed up to the EUro-zone at the same time as the other dozen or so EU Member Nations including all the relevant Financial requirements for taking that decisive step away from its own currency regulation etc.
It was and is the responsibility of Brussels EUro-zone finance management to have undertaken the checks of Greece's Economic viability at the time of entry and to ascertain throughout its 'zone' membership that it was holding to the agreed EUro-zone commitments.
The EU apparatchiks totally failed to ensure Greece was 'fit-for-entry' at the inception of the EUro-zone & has lamentably failed year after year since then to scrutinise Greece's Financial probity.
Of course the EU must be held responsible in part for Greece's situation! It is an EU 'zone', it is an EU 'currency' and it is EU 'regulators' (or lack of) that contributed to the debacle, as well as it is the EU 'rescue package' currently being formulated for the 4th or is it 5th time in 9 weeks!?.
For You to try to portray this mess in any other light than that of an EU Economic-Fiscal 'blunder' just confirms there is no end to the denial of reality a 'pro-EU' is capable of presenting in order to safeguard the EU image of perfection when nothing of the sort actually pertains.
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@131 Mathiasen
I didn`t say that there is no criticism at all, but from my perspective it`s rather the exception than the norm.
you also wrote:
"At the IMF meeting this weekend USA and Germany have proposed a tax on banking. It was not agreed on because India and Canada were against it. I don’t know the position of the UK, but chancellor Merkel has many times talked about the necessity of a regulation of the financial sector."
The tax, while better than nothing, is a sorry excuse for real regulation and control of the financial markets.
Since the G-20 meeting last year there has been no progress whatsoever.
Nobody can tell me that the most powerful governments in the world could not change that system. If they really wanted, that is.
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#130 Durstigermann
I have just re-read my contribution #129. I was too lazy to write an essay to your question. For that reason please forgive if it is incomplete and your question remains unanswered.
If you have any experience with British media (radio, newspapers and TV), trying to keep up to date with international news on a daily basis, the feeling that one is on an island of the un-informed becomes a panic after 3 days.
On the other hand, in America it is the nation of the un-informed for the majority of the population.
My effort in Malaysia to be informed was stymied even after buying ALL the newspapers.
This topic deserves a book rather than an essay so I will give a negative example and attempt to show what does NOT occur in Germany.
Especially on the present EU blog topic of the EU and Britain the average Brit has no idea of what forms the basis of society. That it is still basically Feudal and that the Afghan warlords want to make sure that their rights and priveleges extend into perpetuity on a similar law as the Magna Carta and other documents.
Unfortunately in Britain the rights of the ´serfs´ have been removed, but the rights of the ex-warlords and their massive land ownership has remained. Her Majesty´s this and Her Majesty´s that , is reality and Her Majestys government will make that EU decision in the interest of Her Majesty - and not the voters.
Can you imagine the field day that Der Spiegel or the FAZ would have if that was Germany ?
While the respectable German media is not perfect, it is one of the best I know.
Did that help in any way ?
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Gheryando
Re Your #122
I wholeheartedly concur that #114 is only my opinion.
Now if You would care to look afresh at your list #101 of contributing Nations & define for all us sceptics which apart from 6 (IMO i.e. France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden & UK) actually have an Economy relevant to the overall EU bank balance please do so.
It is my understanding Belgium is ranked 10th in the World Economies, so I am under no illusion 'small' does not mean 'big' (if you see what I mean).
In this the UK is 5th or 6th (depending on the measure) & yet the top4 (which does NOT include France no matter what any French Presidency may claim) World Economies each individually dwarf the UK which it does in turn to 6 of the Nations on your list.
We then arrive at MaxS' version of reality as opposed to your more fanciful ideas.
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tom_p_willis wrote:
"Why does the IMF alway think deficits shoudl be removed only by cutting spending? Surely closing the gap by raising taxes is a valid measure as well?"
That is extremely shortsighted of you, tom. The IMF is well known for demanding that governments sell off their assets to large western corporations as well as cutting spending. Privatization (meaning sale to massive global corporations) of crucial assets in small states is one of the reasons the IMF is such a feared institution.
The history and reputation of the IMF is something every adult should devote a good deal of time studying.
It is traditionally a bastion of cruel dictators in need of support, and it has caused incredible hardship and poverty for vast numbers of people it has claimed to be helping.
At its core is the ideological belief that corporations and not citizens should control the governments of states. It is, to be technical, an advocate of global fascism.
So go read about the history and policies of the IMF, and learn who and what they represent. I make no comment on whether they are "good" or "bad", but there are two indisputable facts that any fair critic can deduce with regard to the IMF:
1. They have no inclination to support democracy or citizens rights. They have a long track record of supporting vicious dictatorial regimes.
2. Their policies are based upon the economic doctrine that large corporations should own and control the assets of a nation. To this end, they routinely advocate lower taxes on corporations and higher taxes on resident individuals: real people.
Given that fascism means the control of government by corporations, I think it is fair and just to call the IMF an institution devoted to global fascism.
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Durstigermann
Contributions #67 and #68 on the previous blog are worth reading, they show the frustration without recognizing the cause.
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cbw
Regarding the EU being at fault in Greece.
I don't believe it is the EU's "fault", rather the EU's "merit".
Without the EU, Greeks would continue their crooked ways and not be accountable to anyone.
The EU is forcing a cultural change upon them, which can only benefit them in the long run. They now have to make difficult but necessary decisions, which a lot of Europe yet has to make.
However, this will result in Greece having more solid finances and being more competitive in the future.
If it wasn't for the EU, they would still be a third world country. Instead, now we can drag them, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century.
Isn't it awesome? In fact, I believe that the euro was especially created for this. To make ourselves so interdependent that there will be no more slacking because the humiliation and price to pay are just too high.
Poor Greeks, in fact. It was on them to become the example of this case that will scare every politician in the eurozone to make those structural reforms that are necessary to compete in the modern world.
I hope this will usher in a period of continuing reform that will make the EU the dynamic economic (and political) superpower it ought to be.
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Of all the messages writen above, only mes2 by DemocractyThreat really stands out.
The rest is the usual. Ignorant people can only say whatever. And I have the quietoaktree who claims to have visited, dictoatorial Greece back in teh 1970s and knows that he learnt it all, however does not misses the chance to show how ignorant he is.
How can he know when the 90% of Greeks does not know? Greeks themselves are propagandised against their own interests and they are manipulated to turn against their own interests, how come quietoaktree has visited the country and learnt it all?
I said so far that PC "I do not pretend to be the smart guy, I do not pretend to know all the truth"... well it is time to end this farse. I am the smart guy and know 10 times more than you and know enought to have an idea where the truth lies dear quietoaktree. At least for the matters of Easter Mediterranean for which you are a completely clueless.
You accuse Greeks of avoiding issues and altering history which is ridiculous. What do you want them quietaoktree to do?
1) Openly say that it was British that pushed for the genocides of 4 million people in Minor Asia, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians?
2) Openly say that it was Britith who pushed Mussolini to attack Greece and it was the British who murdered Metaxas by "medical error" for bashing them out since the 120,000 Greeks in Epirus were more than enough to push out the 550,000 Italians (much to the dissapointment of British)?
3) Openly say that it was British who disorganised the Greek forces so as not to pose any danger to the 12,000 Germans invading from the Kilkis region while in Drama and Xanthi regions 45,000 Germans had not been able to conquer but 3 small ones out of a line of 120 fortresses guarded by a total of 5,000 soldiers and 2,000 elder locals (1 of them fell for having run out of amm and thus defenders surrendered... all 3 of them...)?
4) Openly say that it was the British that armed the communists and made them a premium power among resistance groups pushing them to make the civil war?
5) Openly admit that the British brought in the likes of Papandreou and other British-fed politicians to fight of the British-paid communists and then go on rule Greece for the following... or should I say up to today? Am I wrong?
6) Openly admit that the British caused the Cyprus problem themselves for fear of the island getting independence and voting democratically for its future?
7) Openly say that Makarios and Samson where British agents pretending to be as-if against the British to gain public support while the British were trying to push Turkey to invade so they could maintain their bases on the island without futher worries.
8) Openly say that it was US that pushed for the dictatorship in Greece and then in 1973 it pushed the leftish (a prime weapon of Britain and thus now US), to organise trouble to change the dictator and put a better puppet so they could organise better the invasion in Cyprus?
9) Openly say that it is US and Britain that bombed militarily Greek forces in Cyprus?
10) Openly say that countries like US and Britain openly oppose Greece on every single issue conspiring against its territorial intengrity?
What do you want them to say? People in this country are afraid not just about their financial issues but about their very own existence. Cos it is their existence being under threat.
Now let me tell you (not only you quietoaktree) about real politics in Greece (and make this out each for your countries)... cos that is the way politics move...
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For those who wish to read some high brow western research into how the IMF has affected the lives of Europeans in recent times by "assisting" governments, I must recommend a detailed study performed by academics from Cambridge and Yale Universities in 2008.
This study was published in the Public Library of Science medical journal. Google is your friend to verify the details. The study looked at how IMF policies affected deaths and suffering from tuberculosis.
As a short summary for those who trust my research skills, the conclusion was:
"IMF economic reform programs are associated with significantly worsened tuberculosis incidence, prevalence, and mortality rates in post-communist Eastern European and former Soviet countries, independent of other political, socioeconomic, demographic, and health changes in these countries. Future research should attempt to examine how IMF programs may have related to other non-tuberculosis–related health outcomes."
So Greece should be very careful about allowing these folks into their confidence. Be aware: these people simply do not care how many people die as a result of their policies. They just do not care. All they care about is the bankers getting their short term profits. That is what they do, that is why they exist.
The IMF will watch as your children starve and die from curable diseases, and they just do not care. It is not their concern.
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ChrisArta,
"you lend us money at the same rates as everyone else in the Euro zone, or you don't get back even one Eurocent"
well, here's why what you are proposing is a non-starter. Interest rates are based on the borrower's credit history and the likelihood of the money being paid back properly. Greece has shown repeatedly that its credit servicing ethics are far worse than Germany's or the Netherlands' servicing ethics. It works the same way for individual borrowing: lending money to people or countries involves the small risk of never seeing any of that money again. The higher the risk, the higher the interest rates, If I borrow money from a bank and just keep on piling up the debit and hardly ever pay back any money at the agreed time, then my credit track record deteriorates and the next time I try to borrow money from a bank I will not get the same interest rates as someone who has shown themself to be reliable. That is, if I get to borrow any more money at all. Which brings me to my conclusion. Some people should really thank their lucky stars that there are still a few suckers out there who will lend money. One would think that certain countries have by now exceeded their limit.
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@137 quietoaktree
yes, thanks for that explanation.
Since I`ve never lived in the UK, I cannot comment on your media.
But as you can see in my previous posting, the German media/press-culture has its own shortcomings. It`s something like a "we know it better than the rest" mentality.
The grass really seems to be always greener on the other side. ;)
But I didn`t mean to bash on the media, it`s not half as bad.
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Nik
I can understand your frustation. You are debating ethics though and ethics and politics cannot go together. You might be a noble Greek, but in the end its the stick-wielding Briton, who has managed not to be invaded, keep his independence and punch above his weight in much of the past couple of hundred years.
Whatever you use from the past is useless because only the present is important. And in the present you have messed up.
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Nik
Re #142
Astonishing, breathtaking, conceptually among the foremost pieces of contribution ever made on here to totally and unequivocally outstretch MAII at every level of history-culture-stereotyping-factual inaccuracy and shere unadulterated generation of sorrow for such a shallow display of rancour!
Keep the comments coming, they give us all food for thought about the paucity of thought that can emerge from literally any area of continental Europe & the British Isles when well-rounded education is in short supply and People are neglected.
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democracythreat #143
so the IMF wants you to have tuberculosis?
Then I guess the BBC wants you to have psychosis, apparently it works...
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#119
@quietoaktree,
not only the Germans the French also! No really if I was the greek government I would give the banks a very simple option. "Either you lend us money at the same rate as you lend everyone else, or kiss the money you lent us already goodbye! Take it or leave it". The have nothing to loose and I pitty the Greeks that have to put up with such a spineless government, that when the banks and Merkel tells them to jump they ask how high?
I would like someone to tell me what's the worse that's going to happen to them if they take that approach? They will not be able to buy BMW on credit?? wow, what a big problem that would be!
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"Anna Will" is the polit talk show in German television 1, ARD.
21:45 tonight she will discuss Greece we a group of guests under the headline:
Greece is bankrupt. We pay.
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following to Mathiasen 150
The Bild newspaper is showing how Greeks keep "partying" and demand Merkel pay up.. Not really helping the mood..
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#144,
@CC,
It is very false to assume a country is like an person or like a company. It is like comparing apples with oranges and assuming they need the same conditions to grow.
A country does not need a bank to create money it can create its own money, a country does not need a bank to get the money to pay so its public servants, it create its own money. A country does not need to pay interest to a bank to get money, it can create its own money.
anyhow as far I can see on the news, Greece has not defaulted or was late at making any payments so far, so your arguments given that we assume that they are logical they are not based on any actual facts. The only facts that we have so far are, the banks decided to turn off the tap on Greece, all I'm saying to the Greeks is to tell them fine two can play that game and take it from there!
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Who governs Greece? Papandreou the grandson? Ok. I will jump his grandfather who came in Greece in 1944 with the British from Egypt and I will go to his father, Andrea. One of the biggest traitors of Greece and it is his son who antagonises him right now to surpass him.
Ok,
Take this:
http://www.kryphoscholio.com/politika/andypap.html
And take this too:
http://www.kryphoscholio.com/politika/chant.html
Documents are in English for all of you to see. In the one, a low-level US agent speaks about his view of the situation in Greece giving ephasis in Andreas Papandreou openly saying that the rumour of an as-if trouble with the Center Party taking control in 1963 were all false and that they country went on pretty much normal but then the arrival of Andreas Papandreou from the United states meant that there was an escalated radicalisation. Demagogue, liar and opportunitistic Papandreou spoke against Americans and against NATO often being more radical than communists thus igniting the royal family with all that while the conservative military people were pre-occupied with the "ASPIDA" secret organisation inside the army organised by him (Papandreou) to take over power (i.e. as a dictatorial regime!!!). Thus all that resulting in the treason of 1965 with politicians fleeing the government (traitors), while variousl royalist military people sought to make a dictatorship, finally preceeded by the colonels.
In the second document you see the thank-you letter of the wife of Papandreou to L.Johnson. It seems the US president himself looked after the well being of Papandreou who was anti-US, anti-NATO and in general the red-cloth for Americans.
So what we have? We have Papandreou arriving in Greece after 30 years of absence, from US where he was working as a reknowned professor of Economics in the best US institutions (funnily he is the main instigator of Greece's financial problems, he destroyed the country in the 1980s!). What he does from 1963 is to generate the radicalisation of the Greek politics and to provoke finally a dictatorship. Then after having spoken so much against NATO and US, it is the very US president that occupied his safe handling and return to the US with his family, thus you have the thanking letters to the president directly from his wife.
And if you think that these are ancient histories... whom do we have as a prime minister now? Yes, his son. You can blame the Greeks for voting him as much as you can blame Americans having voted Bush the son, the man that crippled the American economy like none else, following the catastrophic work of the saxophone player - yet the saxophone player's wife is there still with them, ruling along with Obama.
You just cannot imagine the amount of manipulation. In Greece they won't show that on the news:
There is a video of the 2005 announcement of the presidential elections (done in the parliament) by the president of the parliament Ms Benaki to the new president, Mr. Papoulias. The speeach goes like this:
"You undertake the chair of the Greek Republic for 5 years, a period where we will note significant events and developments. The European integreation will be promoted through - potentially - the adoption of the constitutional treaty and the borders and a part of national sovereignty will secede for the grace of peace and goodtimes and devemopment of the enlarged Europe. Human and citizen rights will be modified since they will be protected and possibly violated by governances and powers other than the known and established ones and by all means democracy will meet challenged and will be tested by new types of governance"
There is a problem here: ok the violation of civil, civic, human rights is known, it goes on right under our noses. The challenges of the democracy are known. Even when it comes to sovereignty one can understand that this will secede within EU. But when it comes to borders? How can borders secede? Sovereignty inside borders may secede but borders if they secede they point out to a change of the lines on the map. And how come she said borders and a part of sovereignty? Obviously she mentioned to two different evolutions here. So was it talking about Europe in general or Greece alone? Well the bitter truth is that it is much more probable that she was talking for the latter as it is usual the case on such events.
PS: Papandreou the father was a US citizen and really less than 50% Greek (his mother was a Polish-American), Papandreou the son is not even considering himself Greek within his close circle (thus the nickname "Jeffrey", his mother is American too, and with a publickly known hatred against Greece and Greeks), Anna Benaki and Karolos Papoulias also are of obscure origins to put it bluntly (and people will think that I do not accept non-Greek people governing the country, do not care what you think: at the end nothing is accidental and everything may have a nice explanation. Nothing is irrelevant and the origins of everyone are an equally important element here and explains why a such a large part of the Greek political world stands so cynical about the country's problems themselves anyway created and why they concentrate so much in training the next generation of corrupt politicians led by their sons and daughters to ).
That is how smaller countries are ruled anyway.
I do not think that 90% of you can stand to the bitter realities of how this world is run. Keep on tearing your cloths about state economies and other such funny things...
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Right, but that is the boulevard paper Bild Zeitung and its readers. Read the interview with Wolfgang Schäuble, I also mentioned in #87.
I suppose everybody has forgotten John Kornblum now. He is a former American ambassador to Germany, but Schäuble is the minister of finance now, and contrary to Kornblum he speaks on behalf of Germany. Whether we like or not: Germany pays in its own interest.
Which is difficult to explain to the readers of Bild. And journalists.
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#151 Gheryando
My response in #154 was to you.
Let me just add before I go and see Anna Will: It is not the money in itself. Not only Germany but also other countries are ready to help a friend in need. It is the background that is the problem, the lack of discipline and the fraud.
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ChrisArta,
you are mistaken. Countries are indeed legal persons and countries cannot just keep on printing money until they have enough money. Your ideas come across as a bit naive if you don't mind my saying so. Money does not grow on trees. There have been examples in the past when countries were put in a position where all they could do was keep printing more money, rendering their currency worthless and ruining their economy. The Weimar Republic is the most notorious example of this. The Europeans would never allow Greece to ruin the entire continent just so that Greeks can carry on living beyond their means for a few more years to come.
This has got nothing to do with a "tyranny of banks". Banks are just banks and a society without banks is either communist, Islamic or medieval Christian. We have to take the rough with the smooth. Ande everyone can live by the rules, if they learn to play by the rules, pay their taxes, pay what they owe on time and reduce corruption.
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Re147: CBW, I have nothing to divide with British or US or Russian or Chinese or Indian people. But geopolitics are geopolitics. I can draw that line. My interest is to comprehend. And so far I have predicted quite many things - anyway easy to predict for someone who cared to do 1+1=2.
If you ever could trust a guy on the net - and I know it is impossible, I would tell you to trust me in this: I can back up every single statement I did above. Many of them with documents from your own country, same with US as I just did above. And imagine, that is nothing special. There are tons of interesting stuff but already I spend some time to write a line or two here, I do not have the time to do a proper research and present it here. I am an amateur gepolitical analyst. Not a professional. Do the job yourself if you were ever interested.
But do not come to me brandidhing a mainstream history/politics book cos that is as much historical as the mainstream religious books.
All I say again and again is that I can back up every singly statement of what I said above. You should be more knowledgeable to argue with it when similar or even carbon copies of that British policy were applied in a series of other states that had the bad chance to be either colonies or allies or enemies (and the latter rarely had any worse treatement than the former...). Reality is indeed unacceptable, I know.
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Nik #142
I understand it must be hard to accept the mess your country is in, but that post was just unadulterated fantasy. I dont know why you feel the need to blame the British for everything , but i do know its far, far easier to blame somebody else than take a long, hard look in the mirror. You claim you're the "smart guy" but your blind patriotism wont change the situation that Greece is in, nor will it rewrite history in your favour.
Your post is an utter insult to the thousands of Commonwealth soldiers who died, were wounded or captured during what was a hopeless and "sentimental" campaign on the mainland and Crete.
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@ commonsense_expressway
I completely agree with you. I have been saying this for weeks now.
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commonsense_expressway
Thanks for that
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Mik and DemocracyThreat and others,
If you want to convince me and some others, highly informed opinions should be backed up with statistics and/or a majority of experiences which are reported in the news (or at least relatively little known news site link).
This is the problem with debating. It only convinces when one goes to a length to convince.
If the issue is closed to one, then stating your opinion is just venting, interesting though the opinion might be. And they are interesting, But,
It can be very defeating to read opinions which basically say nothing can be done, because some highly powerful people (whom?) will always circumvent any positiveaction, because of their rumored power and greed/lack of care.
No offense to anyone here, it just needs saying, venting should at least be back up with information (ie, Web Alice's stories and knowledge)
...in a debate.
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BECAUSE, your own opinions are interesting, at least, to me.
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#149 ChrisArta
Apart from you sounding like John Wayne in a cowboy movie when discussing Apache rights, I will assume such statements are an integral part of your Political and Financial Philosophy.
You believe and accept that the non-payment of debts by governments and their populations is legitimate if they find themselves in a similar situation as Greece at present ?
This right you also give to Germany, France, Italy, UK, USA, Turkey etc.etc. both within and outside the Eurozone?
I only wish to make sure that your views are not in any way prejudiced.
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Capitalist speculators were right once again! Nothing keeps people as honest and sharp as when their own money is in it.
Seeing that this bailout loan represents only ~10% of Greece's debt there is a high probability that it is only a first step. More will follow. Eventually the Euro can only be saved if the fiscally responsible members are allowed to exclude offending economies. That would also be better for the problem countries because with their own currencies they would have better options to deal with a fiscal crisis.
What a concept! Individual responsibility and freedom beats one-fits-all simplistic and bureaucratic ideals. Where have we seen this before?
Of course that is the horror scenario of the EU "government".
It is also striking to see how every time the EU needs money, it only seems to consist of Germany. Another bad indicator for the "United States of Europe".
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For the most part the left-wing and communist run labour unions, and other small political forces such as the right-wing LAOS do not seem to have any understanding of how bad the economic situation really is.Instead of being glad that they still have jobs they go on strike. Nevertheless, the demonstrations, though noisy and disruptive of downtown traffic in the main cities, are mostly carried out in a responsible way.The riots and mayhem shown on TV are the work of an organised lunatic fringe, mostly anarchists, Maoists and such like persona who will throw Molotov cocktails at the drop of the hat. The most serious riots by these groups erupted during December 2008, well before the present Greek crisis "hit the fan". As the crisis has become more evident riots have been less frequent and less intense than in the past. Thus.there seems to be only a weak correlation as regards street violence and the rate of economic meltdown.
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In response to 61# quietoaktree:
You say that ... "many ( as Greece) are fighting to enter the Eurozone ...".
Firstly, it was the politicians that were fighting to enter the Eurozone on the idealistic expectations of economic benefits and prosperity, but that doesn't mean that this was popular amongst the populations of those countries.
Secondly, based on the referenda results of joining the Euro (in those countries that offered it), the people voting in those countries did not give a resounding YES, and even where there was a majority YES vote, it was not indicative of a popular consensus.
By analogy, when voting in public companies, in order to succeed on major issues like merger and acquisitions, a majority vote is not typically sufficient, but a minimum of 75% (for example) of elligible voters must agree, as this would be indicative of a popular consensus. Surely, the 'merger' of European nations is no less significant.
You refered to "´The current generation of people in Europe are not willing or ready to make the transition´ ???"
To clarify, the transition I refer to is the painful adjustment of monetary re-alignment and the ongoing sustaining of this alignment.
The result of this unwillingness is exactly what is happening, namely, economic migration of poorer and richer people.
That fact that poor Poles and Bulgarians (to continue with your example) are moving to Britian, despite their respective countries having joined the Euro, precisely supports my point.
Of course, when these Poles and Bulgarians moved to Britian, Britian was not poor, but if the poor of Europe continue to flock to Britian (to continue the example), then Britian will become the region of the poor - reaffirming my original point.
And what do you think will happen with the rich in Britian?
Do you believe they will remain in Britian, or would they likely flock to the 'richer suburbs of Europe'?
In response to #64 Canuck:
Thank you for pointing out that Greece's entry into the Euro was a farce, but do you honestly think that is the only 'farce' in the Euro story?
You rightly say I should stick to the facts, but do you not remember the fact that fraudulent activities were uncovered within the EU, not to mention the often quoted nationalistic biases of EU member states who are still mindful of their own national interests.
Even if you set aside the misquoted figures by Greece in their bid to enter the Euro, the fact remains that Greece is not the only country with an Euro rule busting deficit (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8569418.stm).
In fact, if Britian had already adopted the Euro currency in place of the Pound Sterling, Britian would arguably be under much pressure under Euro rules to implement 'Austerity Measures' and therefore exerting influence on the British government, economy and population to protect the interests of the Euro - arguably in conflict with Britian's national interest.
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One thing is clear, Greek tourism is likely to plummet this year and Greek restaurants within Europe will also loose customers after everybody is blamed by the Greeks for the mess THEY made.
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David you're spot on. Some commentators here ALWAYS say the same things.
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#164. At 9:39pm on 25 Apr 2010, andreasr
Many here would profit from it, if they would back their opinions with data.
A large number of countries will now lend money to Greece. Since Germany has the largest economy, Germany provides the largest amount. France is number two and with 6.2 billions not far away from Germany. Italy, Spain and The Netherlands will provide money as the next. Even Luxembourg and Malta!.
All according to the size of the economy. You can find the numbers on ARD or the ECB.
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#156
@Chris Camp,
None taken, however I think that your blind trust that a country or society can not work without banks is what is wrong here.
I don't care too much how they live their lives or what taxes they pay. I just believe their government was spineless for not playing telling the banks what to do, instead the banks told them what to do.
A country can control it inflation, and its money supply through taxation without any needs to borrow money from the banks. But if they do that people that control the banks and make money from interest will not be making huge profits.
Countries are not legal persons, the banks may like you to think so, but the simple fact is they are not. You can not put a country in jail if they do not pay their debts or you can not liquidate a country, sell its assets and fire its populations if it doesn't pay its debts, so that argument is totaly illogical.
The Weimar Republic, got in the situation it got itself in because it was doing exactly what Greece is doing today, paying huge amounts of money to its foreign debtors.
There is no such thing as one living beyond their means, it only exists in newspaper titles to sell copies! The only thing that Greeks will miss out if they don't pay their debts is BMWs & Mercendes I don't consider that as the biggest problem one has to deal with.
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#163
@quietoaktree,
I strongly believe that banks should not be bailed out with public money as is the case with Greece today! They made a bad investment decision, well too bad they will loose some money why should we share tears for that? Yes the US, UK, Germany, Japan, etc. should write off their debts to the banks. I fail to see why a bank a private institution that serves the interests of its shareholders should have any say in shaping the economic policy of any governemnt elected by the people of that country.
I vote for a government that promises to build schools, hospitals, public roads, rail roads, etc. and I don't want to have a bunch of banks tell them sorry you can't do that because it doesn't serve our interests!
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ChrisArta,
countries are indeed legal persons, inasmuch as they have rights and responsibilities, can be taken to court, can run debts etc... It is comparable to the corporation, a legal construct which, like a state, has the status of a legal person. You cannot put a corporation in jail. There have been instances where countries, which have failed to pay back their debt, had their assets impounded/confiscated. Once again, I refer you to the Weimar Republic and France's action to occupy the Ruhr Valley.
There is no such thing as living beyond one's means? So let's say I have 1,600 Euros on the bank after tax and each month I spend 2,000 Euros? Would I not be living beyond my means if I did that?
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@common_express_way # 158
"Your post is an utter insult to the thousands of Commonwealth soldiers who died, were wounded or captured during what was a hopeless and "sentimental" campaign on the mainland and Crete.
Sorry, but I disagree up to a point. I don't share Nik's enthusiasm for his own theories, but it is painful for any non-British, non-Greek observer to read that the 1941 campaign on the Greek mainland and Crete was 'hopeless and "sentimental"'. Just read up on the history of the battle of Crete, and contemplate comments such as "the 28th (Maori) batallion was one of the most effective forces on the island" (Alan Clark, in the battle of Crete 1962). Truth is that the bravery of the Cretan "irregulars", such as the monk described by Paddy Leigh-Fermour, scared the wits out of the Germans and closed for good the use of German paratroopers in WWII, including in areas they were most needed (i.e. the battle of Leningrad).
It is one thing to dislike Nik's theories, but quite another to repeat British condescending remarks concerning the people who were once their only allies putting up a fight against the Germans. How low can one fall.
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#166 Enoggin
I must admit, I find your cork-screw argumentation in the form of the infinity sign, rather difficult to follow.
For every hotel room and even meals the Greeks begged for D-Marks instead of Drachmas. The same went for Turkey , Yugoslavia etc etc ---the D-mark was king and now they want the next best thing, if Germany is behind it.
If the Euro fails then they will ALL want the D-Mark again.
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Well that is history now, I don't see France or Germany occupying parts of greece to get their money back. So, that is not important in our story. The fact still remains that Greece if its political leaders were not chicken could make the rest of the Eurozone counries dance to their tune. There is no way they could kick them out of the Euro and the fastest way for them to get rid of their debt is to default or get loans at the same rate as everyone else.
No you don't live beyond your means, if you access to 2000 Euro then that by default makes it within your means, you may not be able to pay back that 400 Euro difference but that doesn't mean that it is beyond your means today. So the answer is that one aways lives within their means not beyond.
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#173
"It is one thing to dislike Nik's theories, but quite another to repeat British condescending remarks concerning the people who were once their only allies putting up a fight against the Germans. How low can one fall"
Please re-read my post because you clearly misunderstood it. I didnt write anything negative about the performance of Greek soldiers and partisans during the war. Churchill himself lauded the performance of the Greeks and I certainly said nothing to criticise them.
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Chris Arta:
"So the answer is that one aways lives within their means not beyond."
That, really, is a philosophical question, isn't it.
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#173
"it is painful for any non-British, non-Greek observer to read that the 1941 campaign on the Greek mainland and Crete was 'hopeless and "sentimental"
Ah, i see why you got the wrong idea about what I was saying smroet. The British intervention in Greece WAS "hopeless" because the force was too small and ill-equipped to make any difference and "sentimental" because the British realised that intervention was hopeless....but did it anyway. THATS why I am angry at Nik, we could have fatally weakened our defences in Egypt to support his country, which could have lost us the war, but he still thinks we are the devil incarnate.
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Vassilis 98
Character is fate Vassilis as your Classical ancestors taught us. Your reactions to reality are typical Greek. A state of denial seems to pervade Greek society these days. Only if you are naive or incurably romantic believe that change can happen in Greece. The IMF, ECB, France, Germany and even the Treasury Secretary of the US are demanding reforms. Your government promises things it cannot deliver. On Tuesday April 27, 2010 strikes and demonstrations are planned by unions affiliated to your government party and the communists. The usual rent a crowd will smash, burn and steal other peoples' property. This is actually is the theater of the absurd trying to intimidate the EU. It will fail creating an impossible situation for your government. Mr. Papandreou may even be overthrown by his own party. For your sake I hope it never happens. Just remember what your Classical ancestors said and I paraphrase "Ouai tois Hreocopimenois". Translation Woe to the bankrupt!
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@ 175 - I am afraid all I can see in your posts is naivité and, if I may say so, a certain lack of experience with regards to how bankruptcy works. Greece is not the first country in the world to go bankrupt and it is far from being the last. There are many more to come, including almost certainly all of what is now called the E.U.
If Greece defaults, then this is at the very least the end of Greece's membership in the E.U. If Greece does not leave the E.U. voluntarily after such a move, then the other Eurozone members are going to make Greece a de facto exile of the Eurozone through national legislation (i.e. abolish the Euro). They would even go so far as to disband the E.U. One thing that is not going to happen is a nation that has reverted to being a third-world nation telling successful economies to give them money.
More importantly, if Greece defaults, that would wreck Greece's foreign trade overnight. Nobody would export to Greece anymore. Noone would import from Greece anymore. The interest rates required for Greece to borrow money would go up even further. All this would also leave Greece vulnerable in other ways, too. A weakened Greece, which has lost more than just a handful of trading partners and which is effectively bankrupt, would rely more heavily on the military to assert its national interests. Greece's main rivals in the region are Albania, Turkey and Macedonia. All of these countries have powerful backers in western Europe and across the pond.
I could carry on, but you can probably guess where I am going with this. It would not be advantageous for Greece to default.
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About "living beyond ones means" - that is simply hair-splitting. If you dig yourself a hole and you just keep on digging, then all you have to ask yourself when you reach rock bottom. This "living within your means" just because you borrowed someone else's money, which gives you the illusion that you have more money would be mental acrobatics for someone who thinks like a child and does not worry about tomorrow. But it is living beyond one's means.
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ChrisArta
If your argument is ONLY that you are in favour of banks being `Nationalized´, you did not need so many blog contributions for that.
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173. @smroet
Well said. Regular Greek army also (proud to say that member of my family fought in Crete, my family comes from elsewhere in Greece, he died and he was 20).
Although Brits have created some certain mess in many places of the former empire, this has nothing to do with present day Greek problems which to put it simply is the direct consequence of excessive borrowing of incompetent Greek governments (combined with chronic structural problems). In my opinion, particularly members of the last government should be tried for treason against the republic (they were elected with a mandate to implement change and structural reform, instead they messed up big time!); Drastic changes and measures are now needed to tackle the mounting debt. In order to make such changes Greece need time and time means bridging money, thus EU loans and IMF. I strongly believe that Greeks are resourceful in adversity and they will overcome. Let's not resort please to conspiracy theories (speculators, the role of Goldman sachs, the banking crisis, the inaction of EU, the delays of the present government made things worse and played a role but fundamentally I think the excessive borrowing created the problem). Just to add of course that unfortunately the common Greek citizen had no idea of the borrowing etc. and he/she is going to pay.
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#174 quietoaktree
My point, to put it more concisely is that
1. many citizens of countries in the Euro region were either against their country joining the Euro or where victims of mis-representation. In other words, politicians sold the benefits of Euro, without spelling out the downsides clearly.
2. in time, as people start to experience the downsides of the implementation of the Euro, they will realise the pitfalls (which were not explained or recognised by the politicians). By way of example, refer to the first paragraph of Gavin Hewitt's article above "...but it was still a day that the architects of the single currency had never envisaged. For when it came to it, there were no plans to save a euro member in trouble. "
3. this in turn may lead to increasing social tensions, political dis-enfranchisement and potentially at least partial dis-integration of the EU.
Of course, the EU will survive in some shape or form.
I should point out that I am not a Euro Sceptic in that I believe in the idealism of an economically integrated Europe, but, I have my doubts as to the integrity and implementation of the current version by successive politicians - some of whom are arguably safeguarding ulterior motives and interests other than the people of Europe.
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176. commonsense_expressway
point well taken
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#149. ChrisArta: "... I was the greek government I would give the banks a very simple option. "Either you lend us money at the same rate as you lend everyone else, or kiss the money you lent us already goodbye! Take it or leave it"."
My first thought was that poor ChrisArta has gone over the edge, but giving the proposal some consideration I realize that this would be the best solution to the Greek problem, provided the banks answer "Thank you, we'll pass and not throw good money after bad".
Then Greece would be unable to neither borrow a single penny anywhere in the world nor import anything except on a COD foreign currency basis, thus would have solve their problems using their own means - extremely poor (but proud?).
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#174 quietoaktree
Perhaps the reason for the success in Germany is not simply the german policies, but the propensity of the german people to make them work.
Just because Greece or Turkey implement german seeded ideas, doesn't mean the outcome will be the same as in germany, any more than if someone cooks a dish following a recipe of Gordon Ramsey (or any other known Chef) is guaranteed to achieve the same outcome as Gordon Ramsey.
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Canuck
" Vassilis 98
Character is fate Vassilis as your Classical ancestors taught us. Your reactions to reality are typical Greek. A state of denial seems to pervade Greek society these days. Only if you are naive or incurably romantic believe that change can happen in Greece. The IMF, ECB, France, Germany and even the Treasury Secretary of the US are demanding reforms. Your government promises things it cannot deliver. On Tuesday April 27, 2010 strikes and demonstrations are planned by unions affiliated to your government party and the communists. The usual rent a crowd will smash, burn and steal other peoples' property. This is actually is the theater of the absurd trying to intimidate the EU. It will fail creating an impossible situation for your government. Mr. Papandreou may even be overthrown by his own party. For your sake I hope it never happens. Just remember what your Classical ancestors said and I paraphrase "Ouai tois Hreocopimenois". Translation Woe to the bankrupt!"
beautiful
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Gheryando wrote:
"democracythreat #143
so the IMF wants you to have tuberculosis? "
No, gheryando, the IMF doesn't care if thousands of poor people die from tuberculosis. The point you are determined to miss is that they don't care, rather in the same way as you don't care whether you make point worth making in your posts, just so long as you write something that seems pithy and superior to your own taste.
Now I don't know whether you say nothing except trite one liners because you're out of your depth but feel compelled to voice your unease, or whether it is simply a poor habit you've acquired by hanging around people of a lower social class than yourself.
Either way, it would be useful for you to argue a case for the IMF, and set out why you think Cambridge and Yale academics are foolish and misguided. I am prepared to hear the argument on its merits, if you have the courage to make it.
Turning now to David at 161:
"David wrote:
Mik and DemocracyThreat and others,
If you want to convince me and some others, highly informed opinions should be backed up with statistics and/or a majority of experiences which are reported in the news (or at least relatively little known news site link)."
With respect, David, I had just cited a report from professionals in research at two of the worlds leading academic institutions, published in a leading medical journal. I gave you the name of the journal and the subject matter, and I quoted the conclusion to their report in full.
If that is not good enough for you, I confess I am unable to understand what you desire.
Please don't be hysterically obtuse. Gheryando is bad enough, grunting away to amuse himself and failing the most simple comprehension tests. He is seemingly oblivious to the fact that he is laughing and making jokes about medical research provided by cambridge and yale researchers. He thinks he is laughing at me.
Now you demand references from me when I have provided not just references, but whole quotes from highly respected academic journals.
Must the both of you comment without taking a little more care with what you write? You seem reasonably intelligent people. If you could take just a little more time to think, and perhaps some time to do basic research for yourselves, I'm sure we would all be delighted with the contributions you might make to the discussion.
I take the hint that I am guilty of saying the same thing, and I admit I have a political agenda to pursue. I am doing what I can to argue for direct democracy, and against fascist abuses of human rights.
But you fellows are saying noting at all, and it gets even more tiresome, I suggest, because there can be no "debate". To debate one must first have a position, and neither you nor gheryando have an articulate political position.
Please accept my invitation to adopt one and articulate it.
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@Gheryando
Of course you can do your guestimations as I do mine. I am ready to admit that probably most people would agree with you. I beg to differ. In any case, just on a factual point, so far strikes and demonstrations have been minimal and not at all massive (for Greek standards) with very marginal riot scenes while the most severe austerity measures ever are being implemented (historically, there are demosntrations and strikes in Greece almost every week). Personally I have been impressed. I am pretty sure that we will have strikes and demostrations (it's a democracy after all) but in my view the climate I get is that the majority of Greek citizens are ready for the changes (of course we will have strikes and demonstators from a minority). Actually, left parties are becoming extremely desperate that they see no massive demonstrations. Newspapers are mocking them because they offer no alternatives.
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David,
Please return and tell all those who 'contribute' here about the quality of their English, bless you, you Americans have your cute ways......:))))
Just teasing.......;)
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#176 & 178
I did re-read your posts, and still stumble on the characterization of 'hopeless and "sentimental"' of the Greek campaign. This after I just had a couple of hours ago discussed with a friend about how Metaxas redeemed himself in 1940 with his "No!" for all the ills he caused to Greece and the Greeks from 1914 onwards, including his 1936 dictatorship. Your argument in #178 joins that of Alan Clark in a review of a book on the Cretan campaign. Still, what happened happened, and I know Greeks derive pride of what resistance they put up in those trying times.
As for their current financial plight, they can blame themselves, of course, or the political and social structure of their country, but there are wider issues in which more solidarity of fellow EU members would be expected. It is this what disappoints me most about the attitudes in Germany and the UK : the Greek average citizens (working longer hours on average for less pay than the Germans) are left to fence for themselves against 'market forces' (read rich Wall Street bankers etc. having been bailed out by poor or to-become-poor American taxpayers). It is those 'market forces' who should be continuously be targeted, unless one likes the idea that the economically weak are played the one against the other.
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ChrisArta wrote:
"It is very false to assume a country is like an person or like a company. "
Gheryando wrote:
"Regarding the EU being at fault in Greece.
I don't believe it is the EU's "fault", rather the EU's "merit".
Without the EU, Greeks would continue their crooked ways and not be accountable to anyone.
The EU is forcing a cultural change upon them, which can only benefit them in the long run. They now have to make difficult but necessary decisions, which a lot of Europe yet has to make. "
These two quotes go well together. Chris is absolutely correct to claim that country is not like a person. Unfortunately, gheryando hasn't got the intellectual firepower to grasp the point, and carries on with a puerile display of anthropomorphization. (a terrible word for a useful concept)
It is worth examining gheryando's words carefully, because the ignorance and snide emotional desire to display superiority betray all that is wrong with blaming "Greeks" for the debt crisis.
Yes, it is true that some greeks are partly responsible for the debts of the country. Those party members who knew the financial situation at the time they borrowed and spent more than the country could afford are to blame. Those particular greeks could have done something to avert the crisis.
By stark contrast, five year old greek schoolchildren could not have done anything to solve the problems, and should not be blamed. Nor should the voters outside the political parties in office, in the only choice they had was from a selection of politicians who all would have behaved in the same way.
It is infantile to suggest that citizens of the soviet union were to blame for the actions of the soviet communist party. Clearly the party members were to blame. It was they who formulated policy, and they who imposed their debts and crazy schemes onto to the rest of the population.
Greece is no different. There were indeed people responsible for the debts and the crazy spending schemes, but to blame all greeks is hurtful, unjust, and profoundly unfair.
Now in gheryando's case, this low exhibition of character plumbs greaters depths. gheryando has the cheek to then claim that the very people who were responsible for the debts are the people who in fact tried to stop the debts from occurring.
Displaying a vivid ability to fictionalize the past, gheryando somehow separates the party members in greece and the other EU states from brussels, and the people who staff the institutions of the EU. That is worse than ignorance: it is a profoundly dishonest attempt to rewrite history.
The institutions of the EU are staffed by the party members of the member states. Ashton, Barrosso, Mandelson, every commission president and member since the whole show began: all have been card carrying party members from member states. The people who run the EU are all from the same parties as the people who created the massive debts that now afflict European states. In many instances, they are exactly the same people. In all cases, they belong to the same organisations. There can be no dichotomy between the architects of the debts and the EU institutions, because these are the same people.
And yet gheryando and his type dare to suggest that "greeks" are to blame and that the good folks from the EU institutions will be the solution. It is offensive towards the vast majority of greek people who are decent people who do live within their means, and it is a insincere and pitiful attempt to excuse the guilty from blame.
This inability to focus upon who has been responsible is extremely important, if this debate is to speak competently of what might be done to change the behaviour in future. So far, the debate blames the electorate and excuses the politicians, the party members.
Mathiasen wrote:
"It is not the money in itself. Not only Germany but also other countries are ready to help a friend in need. It is the background that is the problem, the lack of discipline and the fraud."
Now this is an example of the same childish thinking. Mathiasen claims there has been a problem with discipline and fraud. But he doesn't point his words at the parties who formulated the borrowing policy, nor at the bankers who formulated the lending policy. Instead, he blames the voters in whose names the debts were taken out, and whose children must work to pay them off.
I find it disturbing that supposedly intelligent people like mathiasen and gheryando are able to write and think in this way. The ease with which they blame whole countries is only matched by the ease with which they excuse and ignore the culpability of the party members and the bankers who fund their election campaigns.
Both would prefer to blame all greeks and excuse greek political party policy, in order that the bankers get their profits from the system of representation.
That is why I say the problem with the EU and representation funded by corporations is far greater than a lack of democracy. People like this don't just dislike democracy, they see the people as a meal ticket for themselves. They don't merely want to deny the people a political voice, they want to steal from their children by writing up debts in their names.
Where is the debate about the economic ideology which has lead political parties all over europe to increase public debt? Where is the debate about banking policy which has allowed bankers to risk their capital on such risky and futile debt structures?
There is none. Nobody is interested in questioning the party policies or the banking policies. Party members and bankers are not to be blamed. Indeed, they have been wildly successful. The people who are to blame are the "greeks", and it is also they who will pay.
Europe is a human farm.
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#184 Enoggin
I think there are far more arguments for the euro than against it, especially in this time of Globalization.
The pound or the Drachma etc. have no future. Britain no longer has its colonies and apart from Britain and a few outposts, the pound is in low demand and cannot withstand another Soros and Co. speculation. The same goes for many small countries who are in financial trouble.
Before the Euro, foreign exchange costs for inter-European trade were high for small businesses dealing with (say) six countries.
We could have accepted the Dollar or the D-Mark but for various reasons would not have been accepted or wished. Many business in Asia is now done in the Chinese Remimbi as a standard currency.
A decision to keep the status quo was no longer a viable option.
It is a harsh reality, but either the Euro is accepted and protected by all, or the new currency of Germany will be the dominant currency if the Euro fails. If this ever happens the Euro- sceptics will only have themselves and their mis-placed nationalism to blame.
The 3% spending limit is difficult to hold if the Keynsian economics are followed in times of recession or a financial melt-down.
Social implications can be discussed tomorrow.
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postig 103 is still awaitig moderation. hey mister KGBBC censor, it isn't going to get any more moderate.
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@164
I do not think that the Euro will hit anything like a crisis as far as the economical powerhouses of the European Union stay strong.
A national economy such as the Greek one is too insignificant to even put a dent on the Euro.
But you are spot on regarding capitalist speculators:
They knew that EU-countries such as Germany could not avoid but to help Greece in order to prevent either Greece or (German) banks from getting into deep trouble.
Getting the banks into trouble, it would also severely harm Greece.
But I predict now and here that in one year time there will still not be a single new law or regulation which effectively regulates the financial markets and/or implements personal accountability.
Not in one year and not in five years.
But I wish that I will be proven wrong.
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Re:158,159,160
commonsense_expressway wrote.... wrote whaterver... Dear CE before you jump up to say your view dragging dear Chris Camp who so far has lost every single argumentation with me, you should consider go back reading your history:
120,000 soldiers stopped an overall of 550,000 Italians in North Epirus.
5,000 soldiers + 2,000 villagers stopped 45,000 Germans and Bulgarians in Western Thrace and Eastern Macedonia and brought them to a standstill.
When Germans saw they could simply not win over the Metaxas Fortresses with the forces they had they did a round and sent a mobile force of soldiers on cars, motorbikes and trucks. They would face 55,000 AZACobritish forces + the 30,000 Greek reserves. Note that the British had refused to send a single soldier in the Metaxas Fortresses and they wanted to put the defense in... Olympus or even more down... in Thermopyles. I will let you guess why. Finally they set their line of defense in Crete were seeing that Germans could not take the island, they just let them in - officially the explanation was "bad co-ordination", whatever.
So how many were the Germans enterred? No not the ones that died in Crete. But the ones that enterred, took Thessaloniki in 1 day and moved till Athens in the 2nd - i.e. 2 days were the time one needed to drive the distance of more than 600km with the (absence of) roads of the time.
How many Germans did they enter? I let you find the answer if you think you know more, then you compare it to your 55,000 ANZACs...
That is it.
Your inability to stand up with a real argument is not as impressive as your affirmations that you pretend to know for countries you cannot even locate on the map. Study your facts then come here to say whatever.
I told you. I can back up every single point of mine. It is not my fault if British geopolitics acted like that and it is not my fault if later US geopolitics continued dancing the same dance. I never said that it is thanks to British that the economy went bad. But what is certain is that 60 years later were are still ruled by the oligarchy that British established in 1945. Everything has a root.
I am not interested in microeconomics and I do not think that current financial troubles is the worst thing for Greece right now. It had bigger problems to solve. If US or anyone else wanted his money they could take them easily from Greece, there are money to take in various forms. But they are not after this. There are bigger games played and concern the whole region. If you are not able to see then your concern, I have already discussed on this.
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Re190: Vassilis are you playing the naif or something? In which country you live?
I had predicted 2 months ago here on BBC and there is archive of my message, that we will have not as much demonstrations against PASOK government despite taking from Greeks 100 compared to against ND government trying to take away from Greeks 10. PASOK rules since 1980 and it is everywhere in the state organisation, in the press, in the channels, and even in the ND party. Just everywhere. Cos it is not just PASOK, it is a whole system established in post-dictatorial Greece. ND acts like the binary of PASOK. Both parties are funded by the same centers which fund communist KKE and SYRIZA parties and lately the right wing LAOS. There is no way out in the Greek political life. You have no alternative and down to the basics you never had any alternatives.
One has to go back and search the backgrounds of all the main figures of Greek political parties. You will understand a lot.
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The Greeks are protesting that they will not tolerate any austerity measures, while the country is at the stage of financial meltdown.
What solution do these protestors have? What sacrifices are they willing to make to get the country back on it's feet? None, as far I can see.
No one likes austerity measures or having to go to the IMF, that's for sure. But these demonstrations seem to me to be childish and irresponsible.
Typically, the world is demanding it's 'rights' but no one is facing up to their responsibilities.
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194. At 00:32am on 26 Apr 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
" ...
the pound is in low demand and cannot withstand another Soros and Co. speculation."
EUpris: Oh yes it can, because it is no longer in the EMS!
The bit about the colonies is irrelevant.
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@198. Nik
Yes, I remember and I think I agreed. I agree that PASOK (socialist party which is in power) runs deep in Greek society and holds key positions (press, intellectuals, unions etc.). That's why it is probably in the best position to implement a serious and painful austerity problem without too many problems. That's why I seriously estimate that there is a good chance of getting through the austerity measures. Foreigners do not know this info and they think that it is more probable that the government will buckle under the demonstrations and strikes. If PASOK manages to persuade their people on the ground to support measures or at least to have a relatively moderate response (for Greek standards) the programme will go through. ND (right) wouldn't have had a chance. If it was ND in power I would bet 100% that it would be a total failure. In my opinion, a more serious reason for concern is that the structural changes might not go far enough. Did you read what Alekos Papadopoulos (one of the very few well respected past politician, PASOK) said today: we have to have not half-measures but shock measures and did you see the audience PASOK minsters and union leaders.
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I stand by my posts. The EU is idealistically a good thing, but from what I understand from other posts, it is definitely not accountable.
And there seems to have been a coverup that no one is investigating, they are just reacting. If books have been cooked the Fed. Govt. would be prosecuting here--with fines maybe occurring.
But, in the EU, there is nothing, but um, lending as a last resort, hoping the fraud, tax-non receipts and other off the books shinanigans by senior figures will go unpunished. Yup, there is no central way of finding out fault or pursuing change..since no one knows exactly yet what happened.
(from the posts I get this view) But, to answer you, DemoThreat, I'll say yes its a corporate world and what is going to change that?
Oh how immoral a world we live in--a corporate world, start pulling out your hair or something, so entertaining. Banks, corporation, and finally um... money....how beneath you!!!! You must be oh so depressed (gleefully depressed and enjoying all this)
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Thank you, Island hopper, how nice and appreciative you seem...sometimes one does say something stupid if just to impress and entertain you:)
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#180. At 11:14pm on 25 Apr 2010, Chris Camp
Wise comment, and also what the German public was explained yesterday by a professor in bankruptcies in the Anna Will talk show.
Part of the German press and some German politicians have aggravated the situation, and it has in some cases been echoed in Greece. For instance, the suggestion by a German politician that Greece should leave the Euro zone. The German government has answered that it is not a helpful suggestion, and one representative of the government yesterday even compared it with hara-kiri. The effects, also in Germany, would be a lot more problematic.
Greece will get the money. It will also have to make a cut in spending most nations would indeed prefer not to make. Not least in Germany, it has now been realised that within the Euro zone further coordination of the economic politics is necessary.
It will be a main political issue in the EU in the coming years, and it has a potential for many discussions - and articles on this blog.
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#193; Democracythreat
I happend to see that you had commented on something. It the usual bad will and bad tone you are using. Governments and voters in Greece have agreed on a spending they could not afford.
That's it, and if it was possible to make any sensible discussion with you, it would be a perfect starting point for a discussion of some fundamental mechanisms in politics and European welfare societies.
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democracythreat
I must have hurt you for you to go to such lengths.
Tell me, how can I make it better?
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#194
"It is a harsh reality, but either the Euro is accepted and protected by all, or the new currency of Germany will be the dominant currency if the Euro fails. If this ever happens the Euro- sceptics will only have themselves and their mis-placed nationalism to blame."
Fascinating concept-the bit about it being Euro Sceptics fault I mean. I am a Euro Sceptic but I don't see any advantage in the Euro failing (interesting that you even contemplate such a thing as I thought it was perfect and the answer to all our problems)-I just see a lot of folk having to hobble about from having to wear the same sized shoes as everyone else having paid a high price for them in the first place-but thats just my opinion of course.
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"Dear CE before you jump up to say your view dragging dear Chris Camp who so far has lost every single argumentation with me"
LOL, my dearest, dearest Nik, wishful thinking can be a wonderful thing from time to time, but every once in a while you should deliver something to justify your claims with. I am still waiting (in vain) for proof to all of your claims, including, amongst many other things:
- "the British goaded the Greeks into their aggression against Izmir and Asia Minor during the Turkish War of Independence"
- "questioning the idea that today's 'Greeks' are the same Greeks that had a completely different civilisation in the same region 2,500 years ago is 'racism'".
- "Russia is 'more civilised' than Poland and Germany."
- "Pistons(and other inventions) were not made by Ottomans, but are 'based on' some mysterious scrolls found somewhere in the middle East, which are 'either Arabic or Hellenic'."
- "Turkish people had been 'genociding' hundreds of thousands of Greek people before the Greek aggression against the Ottoman Empire."
- "Shakashvili is a 'dictator'"
- The U.S. orders more assassinations of journalists and/or political opponentes than Russia
- Anna Politkovskaya was a "western spy".
I asked you many times over whether you could back up those claims. You were not able to do so on any of the aforementioned occasions. I am only bringing this up because it is going to illustrate the point I am going to make next.
Just as you did in all the previous discussions, you are changing the subject now, because the topic at hand is either too complicated or too boring. So you revert to your mystified version of history, which would have people believe in an innocent, glorious, yet tragically betrayed Greece that was double crossed by an evil third party.
Being double-crossed, according to the far right in Greece, is the only reason for Greece's calamity. Not the obvious, most plausible explanation is given, but the one that makes Greece look like an innocent victim. So according to this never-ending self-delusion, Greece is not bankrupt because of ubiquitous corruption, tax evasion and fraud, but because "Germany failed to pay war reparations" or "Goldman Sachs tries to get the whole country in a headlock" or "the U.S. is conspiring against Turkey". As to Greece's relative geopolitical weakness, it is Macedonia, Albania and Turkey, which are to blame. According to the myth, Greece was duped by the British in almost everything that went wrong in British history.
Well dream on.
Being partly from a British family many of whose members fought for the liberation of Europe, I feel compelled to demolish those myths, even if they are plainly silly and impossible to take seriously to begin with. It is time to set a few things straight, even if it is not considered politically correct to say many of the following things nowadays
- The national Greek gold bullion was saved by the British ship "HMS Dido" in World War 2 and returned it to Greece after the war. The Germans never stole any of it, simply because they couldn't. When they arrived, it was gone.
- The war would have had much more catastrophic consequences for eastern Europe had it not been for the British involvement. The war would have taken much longer, and whichever of the two vile regimes, Soviet or Nazi, would have come out victorious, this would have been the end of small nations like Greece, Serbia, Hungary. The victorious power would have taken all of Europe and after such a long war effort, it would have been brutalised enough to feel entitled to elinminate all remaining nations on the continent from the map. Greece and many other countries should be very, very grateful for what Britain did for them.
In short, none of Greece's problems are Britain's fault. Greece must learn to exercise genuine self-criticism. It should stop blaming others and it should start taking a look at where it went wrong itself.
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Quietoaktree
I have been reading a number of your posts , among others .
I can see that you are a devoted EU supporter , come what may .
My ecological spreader is at the ready filled with the content of your posts . I'm just off to the fields .
The EU has arrived at a point , where it is no longer sane to just be for or against . One should not blindly see the EU as a wonderful entity , without examining its successes and failures .
It is clear that the EU today is a misconception ; in the 1950s it might have worked today it won't ; it is a long way down the wrong track .
In the 1990s British PM John Major envisaged Britain playing a central role in shaping the developement of the EU as an alliance of nation states . He made no impression and realised that the old school of central Europeans were bent on creating a federal state as envisaged by the original six members of the treaty of Rome . For all your belief in the infalibility of the EU , it is my opinion and that of many others that the EU will never be a single federal state . See www.brugegruop.com John Major and Europe : A Failure of Policy 1990-97 .
The creation of the single currenct was only thought out in political terms for the creating one state ; but without the ONE economy it is a disaster for the poorer less industrial countries . I'll guarantee that the EU commission knew perfectly well the financial state of Greece , Italy ,Spain ,Portugal and Ireland . But what is the point of having a single currency if too few join it ?
It would have been better to have scrapped it altogether .
The situation in Greece is very likely just the beginning of the serious trouble from which the Euro and the EU will not survive .
ChrisArta
For once I agree with you ; Greece should default , go back to the Drachma and print her own currency .
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Re208: How many times are you prepared to come back to listen more? Replying to you became already my hobby.
- "the British goaded the Greeks into their aggression against Izmir and Asia Minor during the Turkish War of Independence"
Check what boy George told Venizelos in 1919, then check what Venizelos had not told to the Greek people, then check the easierst: the elections of 1920 – especially the reason an anassuming politician like Gounaris got so much support against Venizelos.
Point lost for you.
- "questioning the idea that today's 'Greeks' are the same Greeks that had a completely different civilisation in the same region 2,500 years ago is 'racism'".
Mycenaeans had a totally different civilisation from archaic Greeks and archaic Greeks from Hellenistic Greeks and Hellenistic Greeks from Byzantine Greeks and 18th century Greeks from Byzantine Greeks and 21th century from Byzantine Greeks. So? Were Mycenaeans any less Greeks? You may say so but your view simply does not count at all. What is racist is to call me something I am not just to fit with your own whatever wishes Chris.
Point lost for you.
- "Russia is 'more civilised' than Poland and Germany."
I mentioned it for the 12th century in regards to central Europe.10 times more, certainly.
Go back check for yourself. Even French, supposedly the most evolved were so backwards that Russian visitors there “could not stand the lowly way of life” (and the descriptions come from the French palance…). Both Byzantines and Arabs had been in contact with Russians, both never wrote as negative things in relation to culture as for westerners. We are in 12th century. Not the 17th you know. Get your timescale right.
Point lost for you.
- "Pistons(and other inventions) were not made by Ottomans, but are 'based on' some mysterious scrolls found somewhere in the middle East, which are 'either Arabic or Hellenic'."
Ok you have to be kidding now, you insist in your Ottoman-science cloudy dream.
Pistons are dated prior to 10th century. Where were the Ottomans back then in texts which are certainly copies of more ancient texts?
Nobody can affirm the inventor, what can be affirmed is that no Ottoman ever invented them. The earliest mention of a piston comes from Ctesibios, a Greek engineer of the 3rd century B.C. An Ottoman maybe?
Point spectacularly lost for you.
- "Turkish people had been 'genociding' hundreds of thousands of Greek people before the Greek aggression against the Ottoman Empire."
You have already accepted that you are genocide denialist. Saying to you to check the slaughters of Phoecea and a large number of other Greek towns in 1912, the slaughter of 350,000 Pontians in 1915 and the slaughter of 120,000 drafted young Greek men in concentration camps in 1915-16 is of no use as you will close your eyes… More than 500,000 Greeks were already slaughtered by 1919 and these include only those of Minor Asia ignoring the slaughters of 1903 in Macedonia and Thrace.
Problem Chris is that people are not blind. A country like Turkey that has special laws to imprison people that dare even only opening such an issue and a country where people are even afraid of their lifes for doing so, then certainly it has really a lot to hide.
Point lost for you big time.
- "Shakashvili is a 'dictator'"
He is a US-funded democratically elected dictatorial-like figure. He denies the right of existence of all non-Georgian people inside his country and he has shut off all opposition from the media. It is not me, it is Georgians themselves that say so.
Point lost for you.
- The U.S. orders more assassinations of journalists and/or political opponentes than Russia
Why do you say “more”? You mentioned that “Russia killed” as many as 100 journalists in 20 years or something and I said that the number is quite normal if you count the number of journalists killed in the US or elsewhere, say in Palestine, in Iraq. The difference is that US since acting a lot externally manages to kill journalists in locations that are not raising suspicions. Russia necessarily does that inside their own country thus it raises suspicions.
Point lost for you.
- Anna Politkovskaya was a "western spy".
I never affirmed it but most probably than not yes she was a spy. Spies are not James Bond Chris, but your local NGO. Greenpeace and the climate control board or something. Did you check her whole carreer Chris? Was she really a journalist or did she seemed to be interested in 1 issue only? She noted Russian violence in Chechenia, did she mention Chechen violence in Chechenia by the way? If not what kind of journalist was she? There are 100s of questions on here. Where she worked? What she stood for? Check out for those NGOs and funds arriving from unknown locations. Her story is not clear at all. So I give no explanation to the one or the other side but there is more than suspicions on her profile.
Point not lost for you but not won either. We simply do not know.
Ok, now I will let you repeat your delirium which says:
Being double-crossed, according to the far right in Greece, is the only reason for Greece's calamity. Not the obvious, most plausible explanation is given, but the one that makes Greece look like an innocent victim. So according to this never-ending self-delusion, Greece is not bankrupt because of ubiquitous corruption, tax evasion and fraud, but because "Germany failed to pay war reparations" or "Goldman Sachs tries to get the whole country in a headlock" or "the U.S. is conspiring against Turkey". As to Greece's relative geopolitical weakness, it is Macedonia, Albania and Turkey, which are to blame. According to the myth, Greece was duped by the British in almost everything that went wrong in British history.
You support the Turkish Nazi Kemalism, you publickly refuse genocides of millions of people, and you dare call me far right? You are just being funny there I suppose, to avoid saying the worse! Then you go on with your usual Gebbelist method to put words on me that I have never said. I have already spoken on corruption, tax fraud and have never said that Turkey, Albania or FormerJugoslavRepuvlicofMacedonia are responsible - even in my message just above I have spoken on these but your hatred does not leave you see that.
Point lost for you big time. And pay attention not to falsify my sayings in future.
You said:
Being partly from a British family many of whose members fought for the liberation of Europe, I feel compelled to demolish those myths, even if they are plainly silly and impossible to take seriously to begin with. It is time to set a few things straight, even if it is not considered politically correct to say many of the following things nowadays
Having roots in Britain, Germany and Turkey, the three major threats of Greece in the past 200 years, you feel compelled to attack Greece by any means which means you are the last to judge objectively. As for my "myths" you are not able to withstand a single argument Chris. A single argument. See above and below. Your asi-if points get massacred one after the other.
Point lost big time for you Chris, once again. But I let you speak non-politically correct and it is the same thing I do. If anything we have to maintain freedom of expression by any means.
- The national Greek gold bullion was saved by the British ship "HMS Dido" in World War 2 and returned it to Greece after the war. The Germans never stole any of it, simply because they couldn't. When they arrived, it was gone.
You are so ignorant and keep mentioning the gold. Of course for you the life of Greeks do not count. But Germany never paid for the nearly 1 million dead Greeks (1 in 8), the forced labour, the concentration camps, the destruction of houses and infrastructure and so on. And even Italy’s reparations were ridiculously small. To understand why these were not asked properly one has to note down the British politics of the time in conjunction with the Greek Germanobritish royal family that overruled Greece at the time. Check the Merten affair and what was Frederiki's (Germanodanish queen...) reaction to get an example of why it happened like that.
The issue is still open and is completely independent of any other issue. Germans have to pay.
Point lost for you.
- The war would have had much more catastrophic consequences for eastern Europe had it not been for the British involvement....Greece and many other countries should be very, very grateful for what Britain did for them.
You are just being ignorant there. I can forgive this as few people know anyway. There are open documents in Britain about British diplomats implicitly inciting Mussolini to attack Greece which are fully aligned with what Mussolini finally cited as reason of war (the famous “lack of neutrality”). It is a general consensus that Germany was more interested in maintaining Balkans as neutral cos that way it is was more cost effective to protect their oil provider, Romania. When Mussolini was already beaten by Greeks, the neutrality of Greece did not pose still a problem to Germans but British rushed in to impose their “aid” against the will of the Greek president Metaxas and against the will of the Greek people (none wanted them there, everyone remembered how good ally was Britain in 1920). So British had Metaxas “died of medical error”, then they got a couple of generals to sign the alliance and send there 55,000 ANZAC forces which caused Germany to decide on their attack in the Balkans aiming to “clean Greece of British bases”.
Simply, without British intervention Greece would had been out of war.
Point lost big time for you.
You also said:
- In short, none of Greece's problems are Britain's fault. Greece must learn to exercise genuine self-criticism. It should stop blaming others and it should start taking a look at where it went wrong itself.
Forget about Britain. Britain can be only the vehicule and as such I refer to it. I never said “the British people” or other such. If you think that it is countries and the visible leadership ruling and deciding on such issues you are big time mistaken.
Now you proposed to get back to the original issue here that is the bankruptcy of Greece. I would like to listen to what you have to propose cos I saw no real proposition from you – I do not expect you to be any interested in that anyway, you mentioned it clearly just to have something else to put on the top of your sauce.
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Re209: Huaimek. Going back to drachma is one thing, getting independent from the Germanofrench block is another. The issue is there. Greece, euro or drachma will have to concentrate on its own needs and not for the needs of the EU which down to the basics served only reparations to farmers for the lack of tax on imports which normally would be the case and as-if development projects paid 50-50% on original budgets thus dragging Greece on costly projects of doubtful utility, especially understood when one counts the amount of bribes German and French companies paid in Greece to get their pharaonic projects going while more important projects such as the Southstream pipeline and the lease of ports are being snubbed.
Haimek you keep forgetting that the problem in Greece is not financial but deeply geopolitical and as a consequence internally political. The financial problem is just an expression of that and down to the basics it is not even the worse as to the other dangers that are on the horizon. Who knows knows.
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#209 Huaimek
I am trying to be pragmatic when discussing the EU end the Euro, and attempting to keep the usual small minded British flag waving nationalism out of intelligent discussions, while we are all in this Globalization boat and facing real economic tidal waves as well as opportunities (some say).
My views on the EG, EU and Euro have been formed over a period of over 30 years and the majority of the countries I mention were either visited or lived in for longer periods.
See #194 (to Enoggin ) Having your currency used as a standard may be flattering to some but neither the USA nor Germany wanted an expansion in that direction. As mentioned, the flagwavers would have problems with the Dollar, D-Mark and also the Reminbi.
If the Euro fails, then take your choice from the above currencies. Because of its Industrial Power I would probably choose the D-Mark, and you ?
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#209 Huaimek
Successes and failures.
If those are used to discuss how to improve this situation, I wholly agree.
Returning to the past maybe a logical conclusion for yourself , but I saw (and still see), the inability of Britain to cope since the Closed Market of its Colonies were finally opened to the rest of the world.
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While many comments on this site and in the press talk about the reasons for the exorbitant Greek deficit, it is hardly ever mentioned that part of the responsibility lies in the country’s exaggerated military expenses, particularly for its fleet.
Was it NATO pushing Greece to spend so much on armament or the ambitious military establishment? It would be interesting to see a detailed analysis of this aspect.
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Another post that is hardly mentioned in the news, but is currently being reviewed, is the deficit of the public health system.
In most countries this deficit is not consolidated in national accounting as it should be.
In Greece, it might be the source of new surprises to come and show the real deficit to be even higher than the current estimate.
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ptomania;
If the Greeks can't afford the cost of military hardware and personnel to remain in NATO, they could drop out and take their chances on defending themselves. Personally, I think the US should do exactly that. Since it is footing the lion's share of the bill anyway, it could cut costs by not having to provide for the defense of the other members. The US has spent trillions of dollars over the last 55 years largely to defend Europe at American taxpayer expense and what does it have to show for it? Germany won't fight in Afghanistan a nation which attacked the US, others won't fight in proportion to their size or obligation. Britain won't even pay to properly equip its soldiers. Abuot the only one that is really contributing its fair share is Estonia. This is just one of many ways the US has over the decades and continues to subsidize "the European lifestyle" at its own expense. It is long overdue for America to pull the plug on all of them and consider its own interess exclusively just the way other countries do. American "leadership" is in fact American suckership.
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#214 tolumnia
The Greeks are more likely to blame the Turks or the European Song Contest.
#216 MarcusAurellius
You didn´t tell me that you dropped the Poles from your friendly list. What have they done in the past 14 days to displease you ?
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First please DO write about what produced the crisis and the debt (even in the UK, USA etc) which is no one else than the cowboys of Goldman Sachs, Moodys etc etc etc and THEN try to analyze all the mess and results of their actions.
WHAT is the point of commenting on the Result of some actions rather then the Root-Causes?
Today, not even germany would qualify to enter the Eurozone! And the Eurozone and its leaders are PUPPETS to Goldman Sachs and all those cowboys who either were their ... employers some time ago (look them up - people in EU governments working before for them) or who are just the people who Maintain them on to power to have their ways ... which Always means Money at whatever cost!!
Greek politicians are both worthless (made a mess of the country) but most importantly are TRAITORS for co-operating with those cowboys and Agreeing to a debt who was Created from the Banks and now generations of Greeks will have to pay ... and all that when those cowboys are also trying to devalue Greece so as to get its oil in the Aegean ... for nothing!! Greek people have to Wake Up and Kick some ... back sides NOW!!
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216. At 11:47am on 26 Apr 2010, MarcusAureliusII
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Of course America subsidised NATO during the cold war era. Initially this was the only course open to it as Europe rebuilt from WWII.
Since the apparent low threat now perceived from Russia the US has had to find new enemies (yes, some have willingly come to find them) in order to maintain the interests of the military machine and the corporations that supply it, not to mention the intelligence community.
So Europe no longer has the Soviet threat over it but it would be a sign of US weakness of influence and wealth to wind down NATO involvement (and other regional organisations). There are others in the world that would step into the vacuum.
"Germany won't fight in Afghanistan a nation which attacked the US"
Am I being too pedantic to remind you that no nation attacked you and that the individuals were Saudi? I in no way suggest that some form of action should not have been taken as a result.
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#216
Don´t tell me Goldman Suks also allowed this to happen ?
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acorn brain;
Why should I care if Russia, Germany, or Lichtenstein decides to invade Poland? What's it to me? What has Poland ever done for me? Let Britain defend it if it can't defend itself. That's how Britain entered WWII, defending Poland. And Britain does owe much to Poland. Were it not for 650,000 Polish immigrants to Britain, their miserable plumbing system would still leak all over the place. That's the least Britain can do for it in return.
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Re214: toluùmnia ... the armaments is just one part of the picture. Let me list in random order (then any of you can put them in any order you want). I will only talk about the post-1975 era (note Greece joined EEC/EU in 1978) and only for the mainly internal issues (list not all-inclusif of course):
1) Endemic state corruption explosed in 1980s with the PASOK government led by Papandreou (the father).
2) Endemic social corruption explosed in 1980s with the PASOK government led by Papandreou (the father).
3) Extravagant spending of public money by political parties for party organisation and preparation for elections.
4) A complete asylum to all corrupted MPs and PMs. Note Papandreou's trial - a farcical joke where justice was ridiculed and all hope was lost that something could be done on corruption.
5) An almost complete asylum to all tax-evasion offenders - none has ever gone to prison
6) Points 4 & 5 above taught Greek citizens that paying tax is just only for those that cannot avoid it (i.e. people on salary...).
7) Idiotic presence of Greek state in economy sectors (e.g. a nationalised sugar industry !!!!) where the only justification is to have some extra seats to put in one's "own kids" as well as to maintain some non-productive employment to people who have no other hope as there is nothing else to do.
8) A complete chase and punishment of every single healthy independent company that remains out of political games and which dares have profit and dares pay the legal tax. The easiest way is simply sending the corrupt taxman or to prohibit it from getting contracts or prohibit its projects (e.g. land investments etc.) and destroying the company in a matter of a few years unless it goes corrupt and plays the game.
9) A full attack on every local independent business, then the replacement of their vacuum with imports.
10) A full attack on many healthy foreign investments and a replacement of their vaccumm with imports (case of Nissan & Pirelli in 80s are indicative).
11) Highly politically controlled syndicates that did strikes on the slightest of opportunity especially around Easter and Christmas time (to get more support for obvious reasons...), that brought the economy to a standstill. Syndicated close a number of healthy industries with their continuous strikes back in the 80s and early 90s.
12) In points 9, 10 & 11, the lost jobs were replaced with café-jobs (similar to the term of "MacJobs", albeit, in fact, even lower than it).
13) Scandalous sale by PASOK governement ('96) after a series of scandals by ex-ND government ('93) of the few beneficial state companies, DEI & OTE (electricity and telecommunications). Current production & communications overall costs have exploded for arguably less services while peoples' money (that built the infrastructure!) previously recycled, now flee on the international.
14) Then we have construction of pharaonic projects of dubious use with a 50-50% Eu participation on original budget which was 200 to 300% undervalued of course (meaning that Greeks have to get more loans to pay multiple times their original budget!!!). The Rio-Antirrio bridge is a marvel of engineering and one of the most difficult and thus costly (per km) bridges ever built internationally (justified only for cities of more than 4-5 million people) was never any major necessity of the country and even the 200,000 people living in Patra and the 20-30,000 people on the other side never had asked it. Ferries brought more money to the locals and served quite well - the cost of putting 1-2 more ferries in night hours would be minimal.
15) And of course Olympics. The epitome. According to moderate analysts they passed 3 times the original cost, other speak for much more than 4 times. Olympics bid was won with the last vote, that of Germans who took the lion's share on the pharaonic projects including terraforming for boat races (in Greece of 15,000km coastline!!!!!!) and stadiums special for wrestling and taekvodo (since the existing smaller basketball stadiums of the capital and other cities were considered as "too banal" - simply another way to create an "Olympic need"). The re-usuability of constructions like the boat-race channel and the stadium is of course an absolute zero - it will cost less Greece to destroy them and reuse the land for something else.
So in all these, where do armaments move into picture? Indeed, armaments is the 16th point here above: one of the areas where corrupt transactions occur and where the purchase of weaponry occcurs more according to the needs of US and occasionally other EU countries to increase their orders' list than according to the needs of the country which has an effect of desorganising the army (since not the right staff is bought always). But that is something that happens in every single country in the world including the US. In armaments you cannot avoid political influence but you certainly can avoid some corruption but up to what level? Here we enter into "out of Greece" issues: simply US (and others on some occasions) would not tolerate dealing with non-corrupt Greek (or any other country) political and military people since that would most probably mean that they risk their bid, there is other nice stuff out there to buy too you know.
Talking to reduce armaments in Greece, a country that is directly threatened by war by its neighbour Turkey*, all that is out of question even if anyone knows it is US behind Turkey's aggressiveness and it is US the main supplier to both countries. In any way Greece needs to increase armaments but in a more cost-effective way, i.e. without stopping to consider US offers, it should start considering Russian offers buying their material making deals for co-production/assembly* in Greece (which Russians offer for a wide range of their weapons including tanks, aircrafts and even missiles, Russians search for such long-term synergies). It can potentially drag up its economy on that as well as increase even more its defense while decreasing the overall costs.
* According to international law (signed by Turkey!), Greece has the right to increase its sea-space to 12 miles around every island in the Aegean and any other sea it has. Turkey (which itself applies the 12 mile on its coastline!), refused to accept this and directly denies the Greek space violating on an everyday basis the Greek airspace and not so rarely the sea-space and even occasionally sending invasion forces on Greek uninhabited islands to set precedents (eg. imia crisis in 1996). Turkey officially threatens Greece with war if it proceeds to respect the International Law on 12miles. US plays the one against the other implicitly supporting Turkey.
** Greek military and industrialist people (corrupt or less corrupt) have repeatedly asked US for local co-production offers, however US vertically refused to set any meaningful synergy in Greece even for low-tech weaponry forcing Greece to buy in US and to depend on these imports. One needs to note the difference in treament of Turkey by US for which it has for long now set up co-production facilities since the 1970s giving arms "for free" (ok, nothing is for free but speaking about direct costs that is the idea...).
As you understand, there are 15 points above and the defense comes as the 16th. It is not the main issue. If we solved 8 of the above, Greek economy could even jump on the positive in a matter of a few years.
You have to understand for good that the matter is political not financial.
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The KGBBC censors are so confused by their own "house rules" that nearly 24 hours later, posting #103 has still not been moderated. If even they can't understand their own rules, how do they expect people posting here to understand them?
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Re217: quietoaktree... and British are more likely to blame Greeks for WWII, WWI, the Crimean war, the adventures of their wifes, and the bad results in Eurovision of the British teams.
Now read my mes222 and get serious.
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@ 217, quietoaktree wrote:
The Greeks are more likely to blame the Turks or the European Song Contest.
You apparently have only stereotypical worthless answers.
Yes, Greece keeps being asked to Borrow more and more money from countries A/B/C ... in order to spend it on Very Expensive military arms/equipment coming from/'made in' countries ... guess which ... A/B/C again so that e.g. the germans can have work for years and the Greeks can keep ... owing money to them for ever.
On this subject, again of course the Greek politicians are kitties and more accurately TRAITORS because then keep this 'fake fear' of crumbling Turkey as a huge military power and threat (when it has over 20 minorities, e.g. with ~10 million Kurds wanting independence and massive poverty) to make their deals about buying those military weapons (and pocket money), exploiting Greek oil for no cost (and pocket money), immigration (and pocket votes to pocket money) and anything else discussed and planned under the table (for years before in many cases).
You can be as stereotypical as you wish ... that only Exposes your Ignorance and the Bubble world you are living in.
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Re216: Marcus, why do you take things so linearly. You claim that US paid all that money as if the money went down the drain. Not at all. They got 10 times more back by means of the petro-dollar and the petro-dollar is enforced only by the army, no private company initiative or something. You are a grown up (I guess), you should be at least in position to understand that basic thing. Now if a large part of the US society did not see much of the benefits of the petrodollar it just the large scale prototype of the smaller sample of the Greek society whose large part did not see any of all those billions of borrowed money as this was recycled inside certain circles (internationally of course & often before even enterring the country). But you are right in the sense that each country has to take its defense on its own terms. Tell that to your industries, they will hate you for speaking like that (you will be considered even a traitor! I am not kidding there).
Re218: Tasos, it is exactly like that. But do not expect many of those who write here to understand. Some do (and some know very well), others don't or pretend not to understand as they prefer the easy explanation "it is all the Greek's fault". Like they do in Africa: it is all the Africans' fault. Like they do in Argentina, it is all Argentinians' fault and so on. People are unable to see the international link that binds all these leaderships in the most corrupt system that would make even the 3rd century Roman Emperors seem as virtuous leaders to put it poetically.
You are asking:
"WHAT is the point of commenting on the Result of some actions rather then the Root-Causes?"
That is what I am asking exactly 2 months now but few seem moved.
Don't you understand that the whole point is simply to make Greeks pay. No, not in money. Who ever cared about money? It is in other terms they want the payment. As you mentioned it, land, ressources, geopolitical obedience, the complete sacrifice of the Greeks' potential in the region as a regional commercial player. The ruling class of Greece are TRAITORS with capital letters and they have been all the way since the WWII (not to speak for earlier).
You know what? Go tell Europeans: we drill the oil in the Aegean, we pay you off and we start being in % the hugest contributors inside the EU. Let them see how they will respond:
You know the answer? I am sure you know it.
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#218 Tasos
As I said in #217, wait until the Eurovision song contest is blamed.
We have had Nazi Germany, the Banks, the Turks, Goldman etc etc but NEVER the Greeks.
Now Greek oil is the new angle. With so much oil, re-payment should be not be a problem unless of course the next 100 years of production has also been sold to pay for the fleet against Turkey ?
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#216
@ MarcusAureliusII,
MAII, that may be the least of your worries soon! The way the Germans & French are handling the Greek crisis so far (i.e. like a bunch of useless amauter), it looks to me that the crisis is heading straight towards the white house to try and get some kind of order into it! The German/French team had over six months already to come up with a solution, six months later they achieved almost nothing, that's if we generous to them :)) A crisis that could have been solved six months ago with some 20 - 30bl Euro, it looks like its heading towards 250 - 300bl Euro by the end of the year when Portugal & Ireland will come into play:)
So be ready to pay more to save us Europeans again from ourselves :)
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#221 MarcusAurellius
You appear not only to be on the wrong blog but in the wrong Era.
#223 MarcusAurellius
Obviously the moderators think the same. I see the frequency of your rejected contributions is increasing.
My prejudices are copyrighted, and I have few problems with the Moderators.
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222. At 12:21pm on 26 Apr 2010, Nik
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I blame inexorable lists of pontification and obfuscation.
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#228 Chrisarta
You sound like a Greek !
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@ 227, quietoaktree wrote:
We have had Nazi Germany, the Banks, the Turks, Goldman etc etc but NEVER the Greeks.
Unless you are blind or ignorant, I DID write TWICE before @ 218 - 'Greek politicians are both worthless (made a mess of the country) but most importantly are TRAITORS' AND @ @ 225 - 'the Greek politicians are kitties and more accurately TRAITORS'.
WHAT MORE do you want to see that I DO agree that Greeks (and not only politicians but mostly citizens who keep voting for them too) HAVE Made huge and numerous mistakes for decades!
BUT You choose to be quite SELECTIVE in what you read and mostly ... understand (OR NOT).
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@Chris Camp,
I'm not talking about nationalising banks, that's what we did here in the UK and is not something I support. I'm talking about letting banks fall and the people that own those banks loose their money, I hope that is clear enough now!
Regarding Greece now, if albania, macedonia & turkey have such strong and powerful backers outside the EU it may serve greece better then to leave the EU to get strong and powerful backers, if been in the EU the only benefit their get is debt, then they sure are stupid:)
Regarding no one buying greek products if they don't pay their debts to the few private banks they owe money, first I don't see the connection here secondly they don't sell too much any how I can't thing of a greek product, regarding no company selling to greeks on credit, then that is perfect, they will only import things that they can pay cash for they will not import on credit. It is not as if they have to import that much.
They have sun the sea and can produce their own food.
If they need skills and expertise to build and run factories, all they have to do to advertise for people to work there is rerun some "Bild" articles to explain the working conditions (i.e. work until lunch time, then go fishing or the beach in the afternoon, have six months holiday a year, retire at 50, and leave a healthy life until 85!!!) I'd go and work there any time compared to work in wet misserable Berlin retire at 65 & die at 70:))
On the other hand they can be stupid and try to pay the debt and send themselves to an early death so that some bank owener somewhere can have a holiday in one of their islands:)
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#216
"Afghanistan a nation which attacked the US,"
Did it? I must have missed that one.
" Abuot the only one that is really contributing its fair share is Estonia"
I'm sure the colleagues and relatives of the 300 dead and thousands injured, in our 9 year, 10,000-strong commitment, would be ecstatic to hear that. I know it goes against the grain for you to saying ANYTHING positive about the British, but kindly dont lump us in with the Germans who wont fight, or the Dutch and Canadians who are withdrawing. Forget the numbers and remember where British forces are...Helmand, taking the fight to the Taliban, not Kabul getting drunk and playing cards.
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Re227: quietoaktree... I will never let your gebbelist ChrisCamp-line approach being repeated here:
1) Who said it is the Nazi's fault?
2) Who said it is the Turks's fault?
3) Who said the root-cause is Goldmans?
Why do you refuse to see the issue eye to eye? Afraid of discovering the reality?
To clear things once and for all:
1) The issue of Nazi war reparations is completely independent of any other current issue. And it is a demand that Greeks pose continuously after the abolition of the treacherous germanobritish pseudo-royal family with the referendum of 1975 (almost 80% against them), however Germans inside the EEC/EU managed one way or another - primarily thanx to the utterly corrupt Greek political system and the imposed leadership of even foreign nationals (like for example Georgakis Papandreou) - that froze the issue. Nontheless, frozen it maybe, it remains open as there is no time for such issues (refer to international law). The issue of reparations was mentioned by Pangalos, a politicians that is largely unpopular (he gets elected only thanx to a strong locality benefiting from his gifts) and who is considered a clown. Funnily he is the grandson of a dictator and the son of one of the few German collaborators, he was raised with Wermacht milk and Gestapo chocolates (when more than 500,000 Greeks were dying of hunger in winter 1941-42) and he is the last to speak on these matters. In Greece he was severely attacked for having used an independent and very sensitive issue as an argument for German bail out which not only devalues Greece's rightfull claims but also attacks the memory of the 1 million Greek victims of WWI.
End of story.
2) Who ever said that Greece's financial problem is Turkey's fault? Turkey is entangled in this affair by the US-Russian and the Middle Eastern geopolitical games anyway. It has only to lose out of that anti-parathesis just like Greece. Turkey only lost money in Cyprus and never managed to gain anything out of its intervention. If it threatens now Greece in the Aegean it is not to serve its own little interests but to serve the US interests in the region. Even the Aegean oil is not a justification as in fact, Turkey has its own oil in Eastern Turkey which can be very possibly more than the Aegean. As a Turkish old friend of mine back in the uni-says was saying: "There is oil right after the Turkish border but when you cross the border there is no oil". Turkey just like Greece in Thasos did some drills in Eastern Turkey (near the lake Van) and pretends (just like Greece) to have little oil there, it is just ashes in the eyes of the people.
Turkey is in the same financial situation as Greece, only that it has not been attacked for a combination of various reasons. Like Greece there are numerous countries in the world. Turkey thus cannot be the root-cause. It is linked as a country in the geo-political way but Turks are not directly into that, they are rather led into it.
3) No-one said that Goldmans created the financial problem. The only thing that was said was that Goldmans played an active role in the creation of the current crisis, i.e. the current event. The financial problem existed in the past and frankly the Greek economy has been in the same situation for more than 15 years yet back in 2000 these institutions just like the EU (and foremost Germany) gave "blind" faith to Greece embarking on pharaonic but highly useless projects while rejecting real-development projects. What we say is that there was a plan and a timing for this crisis. Nothing more than that.
As for your last comment about fleets and oil, Turks have more oil than Greeks so not only they could buy 4 times the fleet they have but they could pay extra salaries to their citizens to maintain families with more kids so that they can man these ships in future. But they don't, obviously going against their own interests there. So stop pretending to present such as an as-if argument.
The oil issue is old in Greece. It has been recently presented in the parliament and a PASOK MP tried to play down the issue as a pseudo-conspiracy as-if the oil does not exist (guess who? little fat Pagkalos again...) and that created a loud reaction inside the parliament (we see this rarely nowadays) from the lower-scale (less corrupt) politicians of all parties (including the PASOK ruling one!). Geology professors, scientists and engineers have gone pulickly and spoken about the issue and the pressure on them to remain quiet. It is for long now not a secret. There is oil, and there is quite a lot.
Now I am repeating the question: how about inviting EU companies to drill it with us? We repay the loans, and become in % the hugest contributors in EU?
It is funny when you are cornered and have nothing to say quietoaktree. The ball is on your side. Here: EU oil in Greece. What else do you want? Come and take it. Why don't you?
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(Do I see a complete lack of argumentation on the "anti-Greece" side or what? It is funny to see people that boasted extravagant opinions to be cornered and left without arguments).
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Perhaps I should rephrase my original question:
Not only what this half a speck of a tiny island off Syria [Cyprus] does in EUSSR, but moreover, what such proverbially corrupt countries like Bulgaria, Italy and Romania do in it still?
Inquiring minds want o know.
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(anti-greece above as a rough title for those that want to restrict the issue in the internal malfunction of the Greek state and the bad habits of Greeks - that anyway none of us Greeks has ever denied).
Oil, Gas, Ports, Sea-space, Sea-access, Black-sea - Mediterranean commercial route and so on...
Just go for the root-cause. It is geopolitical. The rest comes one after the other and details are not even of any great interest.
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#225 Tassos
What I missed was that each Greek should kick their neighbors back-sides.
Your omission appeared to again remove the responsibility for the mess from the electorate who still maintain Nazi Germany is still at fault.
PS Don´t worry, ChrisArta is no better.
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Re237: Geopolitical control powermeerkat. And it always worths the money. Always. I wonder what is so difficult to understand there.
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I am soooo confused. Let the bankers take the loss on the one hand. Why won't bankers lend money at a reasonable rate on the other. Secondly, has the IMF ever forced anyone to take their money?
My Grandfather used to say "if you go to the dance you got to pay the fiddler". That would be violinist to you sophisticates.
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@231. At 1:02pm on 26 Apr 2010, quietoaktree,
wrong guess again if you wish :))
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@ 237, powermeerkat wrote:
what this half a speck of a tiny island off Syria [Cyprus] does in EUSSR, but moreover, what such proverbially corrupt countries like Bulgaria, Italy and Romania do in it still?
Inquiring minds want o know.
>> So HOW COME the so very Non-corrupt, Just, Equal-Rights, 'Developed' countries like the UK, USA etc have As Well So Much DEBT and a Big Financial Crisis as the so very poor eastern EU countries? Or is it the so big UK industry (now Everything is outsourced to India :) that is the reason for the UK holding up still and not being near bankruptcy? I'd say it's your Banks and only!!
Inquiring minds DO want to know.
PS#1: I live and work in the UK for the past 5 years ... Do You read Your papers about Your Daily scandals at all ... hmmm Very Selective if you are not!!
PS#2: again there IS a Lot of Corruption in Greece but really ... there IS the same - if not more - in All countries ... so the issue here is BOTH Fixing/Killing Corruption but ALSO Seeing the Bigger Picture which is ... Some MINORITY of people/bankers etc trying to Get ALL the Money from Others and get a fortune for 10ths of their generations at the cost of World Prosperity!!
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Anyhow my point that I do support the EU & the Euro but it needs to be fixed, the way it works today proves that there is something wrong with it. In a union you can not have people in country "a" borrow at 3% and people in country "b" borrow at 5 - 6% how will business in country "b" country be able to compete with those of country "a"?
No matter what theory suggests reality shows us different.
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Banking bonuses last year worldwide could cover the debt of Greece. The amount needed by countries is not close to what was given the banks. All this critical finger pointing about responsible budgeting and politice yet no such harsh terms were or have been directed toward the bankers who caused all of this. Take greater control over the banks and financial services and the problem can be corrected. Continue on the weak government course of living in fear of the bankers and things can only get worse. Banks appear to be the last vestige devine right. The governments are corrupt and weak and are unwilling to represent the people....things must change.
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#235 Nik
Between Tasos, ChrisArta and yourself, any blame for confusing this discussion lies mainly with all 3 of you.
It is too tedious to go through even a few hours of the contributions after every new contribution changes the meaning of at least 30% of the previous ones.
You know full well the meaning of Greece 10 points, Cyprus 10 points at the Eurovision Song Contest, but it appears Tasos and ChrisArta have no intention ( or know too little) to begin analysing the Psyche of Greece and Greeks from even as far back as 40 years of their history and societal changes since then.
I have seen this change and I am Just not going to buy stories and dreams from those who pretend to be the experts because their contributions are longer.
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A fateful day fo United Kingdom :
Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said an apology from Britain had been received through the Holy See's embassy. ''They supplied all the explanations, and there is nothing to add,'' Lombardi said.
Britain's Scotland Secretary Jim Murphy on Sunday branded the suggestions contained in the memo as despicable. ''These are vile, they're insulting, an embarrassment, and on behalf of the whole of the United Kingdom, I would want to apologize,'' he said, during an election debate.
During his visit to Scotland and England, Pope Benedict XVI will give a speech in London, attend an ecumenical service at Westminster Abbey and conduct a public mass in Glasgow's Bellahouston Park." [CNN]
Britania waves the rules
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@ 239, quietoaktree wrote:
#225 Tassos
What I missed was that each Greek should kick their neighbors back-sides.
Your omission appeared to again remove the responsibility for the mess from the electorate who still maintain Nazi Germany is still at fault.
>> I have written now THRICE that it's NOT News that Greek people (mainly but not only older generations) have made huge mistakes to lead us to this Corrupted conditions of the state and most of each mechanisms (where they do exist) ... but also one who reads history knows how/why those mistakes were made.
In any case, I am at work so I really do NOT have time to Repeat the above more than THRICE!! NOR Do I have to state again and again about the Same and Even Worse corruption in western 'developed' countries in the EU like the UK (read your Daily Papers ... from bebefit fraus to ... Big Bankers Scandals ... and we are talking rrrrealllllly biiiiiiig money there :).
But what you keep Denying or Ignoring is THE BIGGER PICTURE (when did I Myself blame the nazis for the Greek crisis?????) and that leads me to think that maybe uf one is not ignorant then maybe one is ... Benefited from these games ... only You know that apparently ... Fullstop.
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239. At 1:29pm on 26 Apr 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
"....Your omission appeared to again remove the responsibility for the mess from the electorate who still maintain Nazi Germany is still at fault..."
The way modern western democracies work is a big question and does not apply only to Greece of course. Why don't Americans vote for something else than Republicans and Democrats when they have brought their economy to a horrible mess? Why don't British create a new party other than the Labour and Conservatives that drag them in directions they do not want? Why France oscillated between corrupt right wing and socialists and when in 2007 they tried to do the change by voting the center party of François Bairut at a fantastically high % of 20%, next day 80% of Bairut's MPs were bought out and the party was overnight demolished? Eh, in a similar fashion, in pre-EU Greece, whenever the people were fed up and threatening to vote "something new", the menace of dictatorship loomed. In post-EU Greece, this war replaced by the 1) the menace of unemployment/out-of business and the carrot of favouritisme - who can blame the father for voting for Pagkalos when he promises to put his 2 years unemployed over-qualified son in an ok-paid job (public service or even private sector...)? 1) very much existing menace of of external threats (i.e. smaller right wing parties lacking the skills to handle the external affairs, while left-wing ones like SYRIZA anyway speak mostly against Greek interests directly while KKE views everything from a monolithic communist approach that pleases not even its own supporters...)
Of course there is a collective responsibility. But as everyone knows the collective responsibility is down to collective doings which are based down on collective habits (e.g. favouritisme, tax-evasion etc.) and collective habits are either fought off, tolerated or cultivated. In Greece there has been a decades-old highly complex system of cultivation of these bad traits as the standard means of survival of political parties. The other, is a huge propaganda machine that works day and night for the projection of the next PM that US anyway knows and that is why some journalists love to claim (not at all jokingly!) that US makes only 1 pre-written letter of congatulations to the new government several months prior to the publication of sudden or programmed elections.
But again, this is no Greek exception. What one could expect people to do in a system that has been set for them long before they are born? React yes. People will react only when they are told, unfortunately. Myself I expect people only to search for the reality behind, of foremost importance as it makes the propagandist more difficult. In the case of Greeks, Greek people if they want to take their responsibility, they have to keep in mind that they are relatively not so much indebt themselves and as long as they guard their property, houses, land they can never lose a lot - but that is the target of course. What they have to do is to reduce to a strict minimum the false needs marketing had sold to them all those 30 years, return to the basics and reduce consumption to the point of closing several importing functions. Then lobby to fight off any EU-project backed by the Germano-french in their vicinity, on real and if necessary imaginary bases. And last try to play on the local economies, i.e. do a minimum of shopping on foreign supermarket chains, import the minimum necessary, return to public markets which support local producers (real quality products are there anyway), prefer the Greek production (which is not always that bad - in seceral sectors the quality is there). This might reduce the overall size of the economy but then the larger size and those huge imports were based on the "artificially needed" loans not on any real production inside. Hence citizens as well as the state might actually benefit from the shrinking economy even in the medium run.
Above all, a very efficient way will be to start physically attacking people. Like Pagkalos for example? Perhaps the Papandreou family? The Mitsotakis (Bakoyani) family? It is time to do a clearing. We know we cannot avoid the "foreign influence" but not TREASON to that level. We cannot permit the sell-off of our country. It is out of question. Better become a third world country than sell it off.
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Re #240 At 1:31pm on 26 Apr 2010, Nik wrote:
Re237: Geopolitical control powermeerkat. And it always worths the money. Always. I wonder what is so difficult to understand there.
[re Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Portugal, Romania membersdhip in the EUSSR]
It's not difficult to understand.
It's just difficult to comprehend.
[Sorry, I'm a poor, public-educated (former) Confederate]
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#241 MaudDib
Don´t confuse this blog by introducing such wisdoms.
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Re: "Russia is 'more civilised' than Poland and Germany."
On September 17 1939 Socialist Russia, fulfilling its obligations to National Socialist Germany, attacked and occupied Eastern Poland.
And wiped out its intelligentsia at Katyn in 1940. (22,000 murdered)
Thus proving it's a part of Western Civilization.
Next comment from FSB lackeys?
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I'm sorry but I cannot answer inhoherent outbursts in Russian/Bulgarian syntax and with plenty of capital letters.
Could you, please, try again?
In Intelligent Spoken English? [no, it doesn't have to be Oxbridge]
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Re243: You should read about France & Belgium Tasos to see about corruption. We blame about construction scandals in Greece, yet in Brussles there is a famous square the "Flagey" which was built and rebuilt over and over again for some 15 years (15 years!!!!) all that for a little square whose public works study including the bid should not take more than 6 months and the contruction not more than 1 month all-together. Even in Greece the work would had been completed in 2 years (and we would complain). In France I have seen scandals of enormous magnitude and in some occasions even including murder of a series of people (the famous Toulouse scandal some years back...). What can we say about Bernard Tapis? If Greeks are blamed for supporting corrupt people, what can anyone say about the Tapis adoration in France? Should anyone start to countdown the German scandals? Just because the average Germans is not allowed any corrupt behaviour that does not mean that scandals do not happen - in fact German corporations proved to be champions in those terms with Siemens the flagship (and not necessarily the biggest!) and how anout Mercedes, a successful car manufacturer bribing like there is no tomorrow?
The difference Tasos is that France, Germay or UK, there are large economies, huge interests and a long network to bury the scandals. People are not even knowldgeable. In Greece the country is smaller, the news circulate far more easier, thus there is need for much more control and one way of doing so is to diffuse a part of that corruption among a % of the average citizens thus making them an inherent part of the sick system. And it is these people who become one of the best support column of the system. It is the rule of the 30% on 70%, both groups being classless, statusless only varying in the percentage. The 30% is the ruling class, the underlings and the underlings' local contacts. The 70% is the rest of the sheeps.
241. At 1:43pm on 26 Apr 2010, MaudDib wrote:
"I am soooo confused. Let the bankers take the loss on the one hand. Why won't bankers lend money at a reasonable rate on the other. Secondly, has the IMF ever forced anyone to take their money?..."
Mauidb, you do not understand. What you propose is a case that even if the bulk of the Greek MPs voted to enforce, there would be a complete overturn of the constitutional order to prevent Greeks from not "paying" the bankers. "Paying" won't be with money but in "material" and that was the idea since the beginning.
Papandreou is not just a part of the system. He is the system himself. Talking about having left the wolf to guard the sheeps. It is unthinkable that Papandreou will ever seek the most rational solution to the issue. His policy includes direct sell of Greece. As soon as he goes out of government the better for the country. Talks are that after the summer we might see more evolutions in that issue since there are various circles inside Greece as well as EU who are fed up with the current sick situation, let us see if these remain as talks and in that case, if they really have anything more of value to propose which I doubt as in Greece the new proposals for new parties will be whom? Dora Bakoyanni (daughter of Mitsotakis, chief responsible along with father Andreas Papandreou for the current crisis) and Venizelos (no direct relation to ancient one, but I think same origins...)? I am afraid we will have a complete re-cycling of the system itself with new parties where the only change will be the name.
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Gheryando wrote:
"democracythreat
I must have hurt you for you to go to such lengths.
Tell me, how can I make it better?"
You could write nothing at all, if you are sincere in your wish. If you are not sincere, taking public pride claiming to have hurt people is a curious way for you to display yourself. Believe you are capable of hurting me with your vacuous comments if that makes you happier, gheryando. I pity you.
MaudDib wrote:
"I am soooo confused. Let the bankers take the loss on the one hand. Why won't bankers lend money at a reasonable rate on the other. Secondly, has the IMF ever forced anyone to take their money?
My Grandfather used to say "if you go to the dance you got to pay the fiddler". That would be violinist to you sophisticates."
The bankers taking a loss is precisely what the IMF is designed to prevent. It is a very, very strange institution indeed. It is founded on the principles of free market capitalism, and yet all it does in meddle in public finances so that players in the international bond market do not ever take a loss.
And the grave problem with the IMF is that it does not invite the citizens of countries to its dance hall. It takes their money, but the people don't get to dance. The politicians get to dance, the elite who receive government contracts get to dance, the foreign investors and bankers get to dance.
But the people who get to pay the fiddler, they get to stand outside and watch the quality dance on their dime.
The IMF is probably the most interesting institution on earth, especially since the big war.
It was founded as the big war came to a close, and ever since it has been a mysterious and unbelievably elite international institution, comparable only to the Vatican. And like the Vatican, it is often very difficult to know what it stands for, or why it exists.
The IMF ideology is neither for free markets or against them. It depends on the situation from time to time. The only thing the IMF has ever done consistently and with resolution is to ensure bankers receive the interest on their loans. The comparison with the vatican would be to say that the vatican has shown its true purpose is to ensure that rights of familial property succession are upheld.
You might say that what the vatican does for property, the IMF does for interest.
These international institutions are devoted to making sure the material world remains firmly in the hands of the elite few, the people who created and who support these institutions.
Both are fundamentally undemocratic, and both have demonstrated anti-humanistic cultures. There is no place for either in a properly civilized world, where the rule of law and human rights are taken seriously.
Curiously, the supporters of the EU are generally emotionally attached to both institutions, in the same way as the common folks grow fond of their football teams.
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243. At 1:47pm on 26 Apr 2010, Tasos wrote:
" ...o know.
>> So HOW COME the so very Non-corrupt, Just, Equal-Rights, 'Developed' countries like the UK,... have As Well So Much DEBT ..."
EUpris:
1) One reason is that we pay billions for the despicable rubbish called the "EU".
2) Our politicians are corrupt otherwise we would not now be prisoners of the "EU"-Dictatorship.
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@ 245, ghostofsichuan wrote:
Take greater control over the banks and financial services and the problem can be corrected. Continue on the weak government course of living in fear of the bankers and things can only get worse. Banks appear to be the last vestige devine right. The governments are corrupt and weak and are unwilling to represent the people....things must change.
>> 1000% AGREE with you - very well said, short and simple!
@ 246, quietoaktree wrote:
Between Tasos, ChrisArta and yourself, any blame for confusing this discussion lies mainly with all 3 of you.
>> so You sir King are the 'judge' of the contents of the discussion now? Please wake up and get past your complex of superiority ... ignorance suits you much better!
You know full well the meaning of Greece 10 points, Cyprus 10 points at the Eurovision Song Contest, but it appears Tasos and ChrisArta have no intention ( or know too little) to begin analysing the Psyche of Greece and Greeks from even as far back as 40 years of their history and societal changes since then.
>> you speak very well some Greek I see so my respects! Of course you cannot help yoursefl but exposing your Lack of Arguments apart from the Eurovision (which we have won once btw and you cannot even with all those numerous good friendly neighbours you have :).
I have grown and lived in Greece until 27 and am now 5 years in the UK. I know WAY more than you about Greece (you apparently have no clue - it would be nice to know your true origins though) and now about the UK as well.
BUT you Are right, the discussion is made becomes a mess .. .because you and your Eurovision-worth arguments are present - I have no further time for such a ridiculous dialogue.
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This is what I wrote in #208 -
"I asked you many times over whether you could back up those claims. You were not able to do so on any of the aforementioned occasions."
As if to affirm and illustrate the veracity of what I said in the above post, Nik wrote # 210. Once again, he fails to back up any of his claims. Note how all of the things he says are made of whole cloth. Also note the panicky way in which he repeats that people who disagree with him or provide more compelling arguments than he does have "lost" the argument. As if constantly repeating that was able to turn that kind of wishful thinking into a reality.
1.) "Check what boy George told Venizelos in 1919, then check what Venizelos had not told to the Greek people, then check the easierst: the elections of 1920 – especially the reason an anassuming politician like Gounaris got so much support against Venizelos."
That's how they have debates in the southern Balkans? That's an argument? "Check what this person said to that person and what that person did not say to the Greeks, therefore the Greek aggression against Turkey was Britain's fault?"
The claim that Britain is to blame for it remains false for as long as the evidence provided for that claim remains as weak as it is.
2.) "So? Were Mycenaeans any less Greeks? You may say so but your view simply does not count at all. What is racist is to call me something I am not just to fit with your own whatever wishes Chris."
That turns my argument on its head. What I said was that the ancient Greeks were very Greek indeed. The cultural link (if you want to call it that) between the real Greeks and today's Greeks is of linguistic nature, the same way that modern Spanish derives from Latin. Culturally, modern Greeks owe much more to the Ottomans than to the ancient Greeks.
3.) "Go back check for yourself. Even French, supposedly the most evolved were so backwards that Russian visitors there “could not stand the lowly way of life” (and the descriptions come from the French palance…). Both Byzantines and Arabs had been in contact with Russians, both never wrote as negative things in relation to culture as for westerners. We are in 12th century. Not the 17th you know. Get your timescale right."
I am not the one who needs checking the post. Nik said these things in the context of the Russian-Prussian aggression against Poland in the late 17th century. He said, then, Russia was more civilised than Poland. That was meant to be a justification for the Russian aggression against Poland. Note how he repeatedly called the Ottoman empire horrible, whereas one could make a point that the Ottomans were much more civilised than the Byzantines, a point that carries much more force than the untenable allegation that despotic Russia was more civilised than democratic Poland. Russia, by the way, was never any more civilised than western Europe, not during the middle ages, not during the renaissance and certainly not during the time of enlightenment, industrialisation, modernisation. It has always been a squalid expansionist enemy of civilisation. His inventions about Russian princesses in Spain and Russian dukes in France who all threw up at what they saw are just part of his southern Balkans mystifications.
4.) "Pistons are dated prior to 10th century."
Nick fails to prove this. He failed several times before, as his insistence on pistons being invented by anyone other than Al-Jazari. It is part of a southern Balkans reluctance to admit any advantage gained from the Ottoman civilisation. The truth has got nothing to do with it.
"Where were the Ottomans back then in texts which are certainly copies of more ancient texts?"
"Certainly"? How does Nik get that certainty? He is not in the habit of backing up his claims.
5.) "You have already accepted that you are genocide denialist."
At no point did I say I was a genocide denier. At no point did I indicate any genocide denial. I simply made a little light of Nik's obscene invention of "genocides" against Greeks in the 19th century. He throws around numbers like 150,000 or 300,000. Look, I can do the same: 800,000! Or: 1,340,000!!! Yes, that is the amount of British people "genocided" by the Greeks in the 19th century. Yes, that's right: I've got a zero on my keyboard, too! And just like Nik, I can allege genocide without proving any part of it.
6.) "He is a US-funded democratically elected dictatorial-like figure."
A democratically elected leader who is restricted by a legislative assembly can by definition not be a dictator. The southern Balkans simply sympathise with the Russian aggression against a defenseless people because of the "Northern Byzantine" myth as well as the imagined cultural link provided by the Orthodox churches.
7.) "Why do you say “more”? You mentioned that “Russia killed” as many as 100 journalists in 20 years or something and I said that the number is quite normal if you count the number of journalists killed in the US or elsewhere"
I do not know why he said more, he is going to have to answer that question himself. I did not use the number "100" I repeatedly said "over 150". The precise number happens to be 168, by the way. His conspiracy theories aside, here is a little rundown of how many journalists the US administration had murdered in the last 20 years:
0
Here is a rundown of how many journalists the Russians had murdered in the last 20 years:
168
8.) Anyone can say that someone is "probably" a spy. That does not prove anything. Someone with personal integrity would not have made a comment like that or would at least have retracted it after being challenged. Nik stands by his preposterous accusation, which is blatantly designed to justify the murder of an innocent woman.
9.) "But Germany never paid for the nearly 1 million dead Greeks (1 in 8), the forced labour, the concentration camps, the destruction of houses and infrastructure and so on."
The estimated list of casualties of WW2 is usually stated as being around the 800,000. This is the problem: people in the southern Balkans have lied so much about many of the things pertaining WW2 that it would be very difficult for any judge to decide how much money would be appropriate. Greek politicians lie about the gold and numbers of casualties are frequently exaggerated. Note that I am not saying that 800,000 is not a high number. The only acceptable number would have been 0 and Germany should most certainly pay for it. But Greece has made compensation almost impossible by destroying its own credibility, rendering all of its claims very very doubtful indeed.
10.) The nonsense about Metaxas' "secret assassination", the British attempts to get Italy to attack Greece and the role Britain played in the German occupation is just the usual conspiracy nonsense who, by the way has openly admitted that he is a 9/11 truther. I find conspiracy theories highly interesting, but they are not very helpful when one tries to find the facts.
11.) This is it? There's nothing more that could back up any of Nik's claims? This is how history and politics is taught in the southern Balkans? Children are taught from early childhood on, not to criticise their own country or their own culture but blame all the country's problems on some tangled-up international conspiracy?
Nik, you have not delivered a single credible source to back up any of your claims. This whole Cyrillic habit of constantly blaming other civilisations is insanity. This whole idea that Greece is a civilisation that other nations look up to is insanity. This whole idea that the world or at least Europe owes Greece anything is insanity.
Sorry.
@ ChrisArta -
1.) "I'm not talking about nationalising banks, that's what we did here in the UK and is not something I support. I'm talking about letting banks fall and the people that own those banks loose their money, I hope that is clear enough now!"
OK. So far, I am on your side.
2.) "Regarding Greece now, if albania, macedonia & turkey have such strong and powerful backers outside the EU it may serve greece better then to leave the EU to get strong and powerful backers, if been in the EU the only benefit their get is debt, then they sure are stupid:)"
Now I am even more on your side.
3.) "Regarding no one buying greek products if they don't pay their debts to the few private banks they owe money, first I don't see the connection here (a) secondly they don't sell too much any how I can't thing of a greek product, regarding no company selling to greeks on credit, then that is perfect, they will only import things that they can pay cash for they will not import on credit. It is not as if they have to import that much (b).
Right, here we have a first slight divergence between what you are thinking and what I am thinking.
a.) there is clearly a connexion here. Foreign trade and foreign dealings are only ever possible if both parties are able and willing to take out loans. There is not importing/exporting business without a certain financial outlay and companies in each country need to have national governments they can refer to to back up the credibility of any guarantees they are making. If a company (be they importer or exporter) sits in a country whose government has ruined its credit history and credit reputation, then any austere enterprise will be reluctant to do dealings with companies like that. Who can guarantee them their money?
b.) The problem is, there is no more cash in Greece. Greece does not have any money. It has a foreign deficit that exceeds its GDP.
4.) They have sun the sea and can produce their own food.
Let us translate that as: they can rely on fishing, tourism and their own agriculture. The problem here is this: naaaaah, you serious??? They cannot, and never will be! Relying on tourism has not worked so far, it will not work in the future. Greece can revert to being self-sufficient, but that means it would irreversibly return to being a mainly agricultural nation with little or no industry and a very low level of development. A country like that would not be able to afford the exorbitant military costs it has at the moment, in its megalomaniac endeavour to challenge Turkey in the region. It would have to rely on Russian generosity and the two problems with that are
a.) Russia is not developed enough to babysit countries that are not able to look after itself the way America can.
b.) Russian imperialism is ultimately blind towards the imagined cultural heritage of its target. Greeks may think that they have a cultural connexion to Russia for whatever reason, but once they have become fully dependent on Russia, they will experience it in a way that Poles and Czechs still remember and will continue remembering for many more decades and centuries to come.
5.) "If they need skills and expertise to build and run factories, all they have to do to advertise for people to work there is rerun some "Bild" articles to explain the working conditions (i.e. work until lunch time, then go fishing or the beach in the afternoon, have six months holiday a year, retire at 50, and leave a healthy life until 85!!!) I'd go and work there any time compared to work in wet misserable Berlin retire at 65 & die at 70:))"
I just checked wikipedia and I need to tell you that life expectancy in both countries is almost equal. In Germany, women live a bit longer than women in Greece and in Greece, men live a bit longer than men in Germany. Of course, you were being facetious but the underlying problem (sorry for being a humourless stick-in-the-mud) is that if Greece decides to become an agricultural nation, as described above, then it will not re-industrialise. That option would then be off the table.
Although I had to take issue with a few of your points, I am glad we concur on 1.) and 2.) which are the two most important ones in my opinion.
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212. At 10:23am on 26 Apr 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
" ...
I am trying to be pragmatic when discussing the EU end the Euro, and attempting to keep the usual small minded British flag waving nationalism out of intelligent discussions ..."
EUpris:
1) Please could you give us a list of those who are guilty of this "small minded British flag waving nationalism " ?
2) If I am on that list then please could you give me an example?
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MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"The US has spent trillions of dollars over the last 55 years largely to defend Europe at American taxpayer expense and what does it have to show for it?"
A vast public debt to be serviced by the work of your children and their children, and hordes of brainwashed idiots working in a military industrial complex that makes a select few families unimaginably rich producing things for sale to a government sponsored by themselves.
I agree, it is lamentable. In the extreme. It is a betrayal of democracy, of common sense, and of human rights.
I'm glad you've come round to the sane person's perspective on the US military economy, Marcus. For a while there I thought you were one of the flag waving crazies who didn't understand that their own nationalism was being used to make them punch drunk slaves to the international banking elite who own the US media and the party system of representation.
Read with me from the good book a while, Marcus:
"Blessed by the LORD my God be Shem [ancestor of the "S(h)emites"]
and let Canaan be his slave."(Gen 9:26)
"And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God" (Gen 17:8)
Of course, one shouldn't take the imposition of slavery upon the cananites literally. We understand from the good book that in fact these people (Canaan was palestine) were to be the victims of complete genocide.
Turn now to Deuteronomy 20 and read with me, Marcus:
"And it shall be, when the officers have made an end of speaking unto the people that they shall make captains of the armies to lead the people.
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee."
So I suppose the greeks being sold into debt slavery is actually fairly mild, given the previous policies of the Israelites.
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246. At 2:13pm on 26 Apr 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
#235 Nik....
"...Between Tasos, ChrisArta and yourself, any blame for confusing this discussion lies mainly with all 3 of you...."
Well I went back and read our posts and they all are very concise and make perfect sense. In fact our posts are answering your points earlier than you ask them which makes you actually confusing the discussion and putting it in circles.
Just see above, I asked you first, then Tasos asked:
- When did we deny the endemic corruption in Greece?
- When did we say that it as the Nazis that are responsible for the economy?
- When did we say that it is "neighbouring countries' fault?"
- When did we say that is was "Goldman Sach" the root problem?
You said:
You know full well the meaning of Greece 10 points, Cyprus 10 points at the Eurovision Song Contest...
No I don't get your point exactly. Croatia gives 10 points to Slovenia and Finland to Esthonia on an equal standard basis and they are not even the same nation. Even worse. What is your point exactly, if you consider it important you may rephrase it for me (honestly I did not get it).
You said:
"but it appears Tasos and ChrisArta have no intention ( or know too little) to begin analysing the Psyche of Greece and Greeks from even as far back as 40 years of their history and societal changes since then."
OK this I got. Indeed I do this but if you really do a research up there I often reply to other people saying whatever about Greece's past.
When I bring the past it is mainly the past post-WWII decades. Why? Cos I am in search of the root-cause. Chris-Arta won't do that that much cos he is interested in what we do right now (and righly he does so), Vassilis has a quite right general idea about the root-cause but he lacks my knowledge (geopolitics is not his hobby, it is mine - and I may play the specialist here but at the end none ever confronted wit success my points).
You said:
I have seen this change and I am Just not going to buy stories and dreams from those who pretend to be the experts because their contributions are longer.
Ok, enough said.
Reply to me in this:
Greece among other, has oil. Lots of it. It is an issue that even corrupt or frightened MPs cannot hide anymore. So it is EU oil. Greece invites all EU companies to take their share and drill it together with us. In 1 month Greece has paid off the debt (by pre-selling the oil) and next year Greece becomes the hugest contributor in % of size in EU.
What is the problem with all that?
In a small message please!
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ChrisArta
"in a union you can not have people in country "a" borrow at 3% and people in country "b" borrow at 5 - 6% how will business in country "b" country be able to compete with those of country "a"?"
Well, the difference in interest rates did not come out of a clear blue sky. Germany's pristine rating in the banking community is a result of its generally austere way of doing economics and regulating its spending. Greece's problems stem from the fact that it ruined its reputation in the banking community by being wasteful and spraying a lot of its money up the wall, frankly.
These credit ratings and the interest rates are not fixed, by the way. If Greece follows through with its austerity measures, then Greece's rating would eventually go up again, undoubtedly.
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Austrian Radio website indicates Vatican VERY ANGRY about British joke memo "Benedict condoms" etc.
They weren't even really trying to offend.
If they get offended that easily, then why can we not offend the "EU" so much that it throws us out?
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@NIK
"...however Germans inside the EEC/EU managed one way or another - primarily thanx to the utterly corrupt Greek political system and the imposed leadership of even foreign nationals (like for example Georgakis Papandreou) - that froze the issue. Nontheless, frozen it maybe, it remains open as there is no time for such issues (refer to international law)."
This is slightly off-topic, but I will give you a brief glimpse at the German perspective and law:
According to the "Two Plus Four Agreement", which paved the way to German reunifiaction and let Germany regain national sovereignty, Germany needs not to pay any further reparations.
The German Federal Court of Constition also ruled that German debt is settled.
Therefore, you can expect not a single dime in the future.
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@244 ChrisArta
"Anyhow my point that I do support the EU & the Euro but it needs to be fixed, the way it works today proves that there is something wrong with it. In a union you can not have people in country "a" borrow at 3% and people in country "b" borrow at 5 - 6% how will business in country "b" country be able to compete with those of country "a"?"
I fully agree. Right now, we don`t really have a monetary union, but a common and artificial exchange rate.
A problem with fixing this is the sad fact that the EU, due to political ambition, includes too many poor countries by now.
The small number of net contributors would have to pay even more for common bonds. Same for responsible countries compared to unresponsible ones.
There a lot of things which need to be addressed before something as a common euro bond can be implemented.
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Chris, you have lost every single argument on all the various subjects you have oppened, and you really make people laught here (it is another thing that they won't comment on you out of tact - since it spoils the discussion). However your effort to try and comment on greece is really for tears and laughter. You hate the country and you admit it, what else can you comment Chris? I loved your statement about "megalomaniac Greece trying to contest Turkey in the region". Tell me Chris, how exactly Greece is currrently trying to contest megalomaniacly Turkey? What does Greece ask from Turkey?
If you fail to reply to this yourself will reveal Turkey's aggressiveness. As simple as that. Answer me and make me laugh.
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Re262: Germany's pristine rating? 15 out of 20 countries have fiddled books as much as Greece and German economy is hugely interlinked with these countries and not just by having a common currency. Germany knew very well what is was doing back in 2002 and knows very well what it does know. Anything but pristine.
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@ 258, Chris Camp wrote:
What I said was that the ancient Greeks were very Greek indeed. The cultural link (if you want to call it that) between the real Greeks and today's Greeks is of linguistic nature, the same way that modern Spanish derives from Latin. Culturally, modern Greeks owe much more to the Ottomans than to the ancient Greeks.
>> hmmmm, the last guy who was suggesting such things was called ... Adolf. Not very complementary for your argument :-).
Also since then there have been numerous of anthropological studies and research proving that the Ancient Greeks and modern Greeks are directly related (based on DNA and not only). That is Called Science for you by well-known Greek and non-Greek Scientists mostly but not only in non-Greek Universities vs. ... your anonymous allegations (but no we will believe what you say won't we?)
The argument that 'Greeks owe much more to the Ottomans than to the ancient Greeks' is Riduculous to Anyone who knows Tiny bits of History. The Turks/Ottomans were originally nomads who killed/raped numerous nations and this is why today they look like ... typical Mediterranean people rather than Mongols (their true origins - some of them still exist in Eastern Turkey amongst the endless minorities there) ... and of course apart from 'DNA' they stole or adapted many Cultural things from all the nations they run upon ... MUCH LIKE THE BRITISH empire ... without actually 'learning'/developing' anything further themselves!!
Anyway, try to Read Plato's Symposium (which I am currently reading) to see HOW SIMILAR modern Greece/Greeks are to Ancient Greece/Greeks (in both good and bad things/habbits).
OF COURSE all the above is NOT the subject here .. but GUESS WHO went that way FIRST :-). My last post, so long ...
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@quietoaktree,
I don't care too much about Greece, I just advocate that Greece can be the first one to stop paying bankers for their bad decission.
I think if the Greeks do it first then Portugal & Ireland followes them then problem solved, the Euro will be a currency that is there to serve the people of EU and not as a tool to be used to suck them dry.
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Chris 2 points from your 2nd part of the answer to ChrisArta above just for fun:
You said:
b.) Russian imperialism is ultimately blind towards the imagined cultural heritage of its target. Greeks may think that they have a cultural connexion to Russia for whatever reason, but once they have become fully dependent on Russia, they will experience it in a way that Poles and Czechs still remember and will continue remembering for many more decades and centuries to come.
You talk about USSR? That thing has gone. It is however moving to see you for once care about Greeks' future. Somehow the name "Russia" makes you sensitive. Haha!
You said:
5.) "If they need skills and expertise to build and run factories, all they have to do to advertise for people to work there is rerun some "Bild" articles to explain the working conditions (i.e. work until lunch time, then go fishing or the beach in the afternoon, have six months holiday a year, retire at 50, and leave a healthy life until 85!!!) I'd go and work there any time compared to work in wet misserable Berlin retire at 65 & die at 70:))"
Greece is one of the most over-skilled countries in Europe in terms of pre-emloyment skills. Highest level of university graduates, tons of top scientists flying around the world (and I am referring to the Greece-born ones, brought-up in Greece). Even the lower class is anglophone, with the middle and upper classes regarding themsleves illtirate if they know less than 2 foreign languages. You will find Greeks in every possible high-ranking sector in EU and US institutions at a % which is extravagantly high in % to the size of population and economy as well as civilisational background which is not western European, nor Eastern European but Eastern Mediterranean (not at all the best starting position).
While importing foreign skilled people is anyway hugely positive since there is exchange of experience and development of commercial ties, and I support it, it is not that skills lack in the country. Nor does the country has any need of unskilled labour as some suggested (for what? olympic projects?). It is jobs that the country lacks, as there has been a systematic kill of all internal activity to be replaced by imports, imports, imports. The case of Nissan in the 1980s (best Nissan assembly unit in the world as acclaimed by Nissan responsibles themselves...) is a prime example of how you kill a country's production and employment.
What I did not miss to see dear Chris is the absence of the word "commerce", "trade", "routes", maritime industry, energy industry etc. and other such nice things - you speak about agriculture and industrial production - two things which are irrelevant to a mountainous, maritime country Greece with its 1500 mountains and 3000 islands.
Short your analysis Chris. It is failing.
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dt
for you - I will do - absolutely nothing. I will keep going and post. I am sure you will enjoy reading it. :)
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Re264: , DurstigerMann, ok, slightly off-topic but thanx for the info (I had had heard it back in the early 90s still a kid indeed).
Good point and good to reveal how sneakily Germans try to avoid paying what they owe.
Only there is a little detail: it is fantastically unilateral.
And as such it has absolutely no value. Not to mention that so far till 1989 the usual argumentation of W.Germany is that the reparations had to be paid by both West and East Germany!!! Now, if any treacherous Greek politician ever signed any paper, that has been done in secret, and it is the most easy thing to make a court even after his death to cancel such a secret deal and get on with the issue.
The issue remains open. And as all issues, no matter their foundation, they are up to the geopolitics of the time to decide - nothing to do with their legal basis (let alone any moral basis).
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Really ... one Cannot converse with Barbarians regardless of how much Time (OR Money) they have to spare ... for they Will Always Be Barbarians!
The most useful of all comments was 245. by ghostofsichuan:
Banking bonuses last year worldwide could cover the debt of Greece. The amount needed by countries is not close to what was given the banks. All this critical finger pointing about responsible budgeting and politice yet no such harsh terms were or have been directed toward the bankers who caused all of this. Take greater control over the banks and financial services and the problem can be corrected. Continue on the weak government course of living in fear of the bankers and things can only get worse. Banks appear to be the last vestige devine right. The governments are corrupt and weak and are unwilling to represent the people....things must change.
Goodnight ...
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Off topic but a side discussion is always enjoyable (in the lack of proper asnwer-argumentation on our points).
Chris wrote:
What I said was that the ancient Greeks were very Greek indeed. The cultural link (if you want to call it that) between the real Greeks and today's Greeks is of linguistic nature, the same way that modern Spanish derives from Latin. Culturally, modern Greeks owe much more to the Ottomans than to the ancient Greeks."
268. At 3:53pm on 26 Apr 2010, Tasos wrote:
>> hmmmm, the last guy who was suggesting such things was called ... Adolf. Not very complementary for your argument :-).
I say:
You forgot Falmerayer. This brilliant 19th Austrian "scientist", "historian" who tried to explain the history of Greeks via the fight between Austrians and Russia (in fact he called Greeks Slavs to alarm westerners on the danger of Greeks' potential alliance to Russians - Russia was his main fixation / note that Chris Camps has the same fixations!!! Accident of history???). Currently, historians like Paparigopoulos had long replied to him in the 19th century and no matter if he is still accused as a prime example of nationalism (at best over-patriotism), scientifically his research is internationally accepted as a well-standing one not only for his time since the bulk of his points withstood all the massive 20th century discoveries. Imagine that today, researchers consider that Paparigolpoulos' biggest error was to regard Mycenaeans as pre-hellenic tribes while they were as Greeks as anyone else and only the name lacked there, as if saying Greeks are different to Hellenes and Hellenes differnt to Yunans etc.
Vssilis said:
"""Also since then there have been numerous of anthropological studies and research proving that the Ancient Greeks and modern Greeks are directly related (based on DNA and not only). That is Called Science for you by well-known Greek and non-Greek Scientists mostly but not only in non-Greek Universities vs. ... your anonymous allegations (but no we will believe what you say won't we?)""
What did you say? DNA research? Are you Hitleric? Are you racist? Do you think that all these false DNA researches can blind us from the fact that Greeks are identical to Anatolian Turks, Bulgarians and Albanians? And you call your researches a science?
(hehe)
Vassilis said:
The argument that 'Greeks owe much more to the Ottomans than to the ancient Greeks' is Riduculous to Anyone who knows Tiny bits of History. The Turks/Ottomans were originally nomads who killed/raped numerous nations and this is why today they look like ... typical Mediterranean people rather than Mongols (their true origins - some of them still exist in Eastern Turkey amongst the endless minorities there) ... and of course apart from 'DNA' they stole or adapted many Cultural things from all the nations they run upon ... MUCH LIKE THE BRITISH empire ... without actually 'learning'/developing' anything further themselves!!
No, according to Chris they developed the piston! Ctesibius was an Ottoman don't you know? What? You disagree? E then you are racist! Ehehehehehe....
Vassilis said:
Anyway, try to Read Plato's Symposium (which I am currently reading) to see HOW SIMILAR modern Greece/Greeks are to Ancient Greece/Greeks (in both good and bad things/habbits).
I say:
One has to read the Heliad to understand how Mycynaeans and modern Greeks are so close. Contrary to common beliefs, the poem is NOT about Heliad but about the fight between Achiles & Agamemnon and it was written as a moral lesson against the age old nature of the Greek ethnos, i.e. its inherent free-will but also individualistic nature. You read the way Agamemnon and Achiles fight and you think it just happend yesterday. And it is a petty the translations historically missed all the real swear words that Homer used, translating them mildly and sometimes blatatnly wrongly. Simply, the best written text ever!
Vassilis said:
OF COURSE all the above is NOT the subject here .. but GUESS WHO went that way FIRST :-). My last post, so long ...
I say:
Of course Vassilis of course! You have to go back to the "Blame it on the Germans" thread in my messages 210, 212 and rest to see how I present the case of EU-Greece answering every single question with BBC (BBC!!!) own tables.
Guess what was the answer. None. Some went back to the above ancient histories or to the initial positions that had been already completely deconstructed! Pathetic. But I play the game cos I find it amusing revealing to people their complete lack of argumentation even in their effort to avoid the main discussion.
Losing the main discussion opening side ones is understandable - losing the side discussion too is really a shame. I have long done that with Chris and I have been taking it lightly all the way.
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@Nik
"Re264: , DurstigerMann, ok, slightly off-topic but thanx for the info (I had had heard it back in the early 90s still a kid indeed).
Good point and good to reveal how sneakily Germans try to avoid paying what they owe.
Only there is a little detail: it is fantastically unilateral.
And as such it has absolutely no value. Not to mention that so far till 1989 the usual argumentation of W.Germany is that the reparations had to be paid by both West and East Germany!!! Now, if any treacherous Greek politician ever signed any paper, that has been done in secret, and it is the most easy thing to make a court even after his death to cancel such a secret deal and get on with the issue."
My Generation owes no money to any country.
And the Agreement was signed by all 4 winning powers of WWII.
There will be no reparation payments to Greece, period.
Even if the Government wanted to, the Federal Constitutional Court would stop it. I`d even be the first one to file a lawsuit. I won`t pay for something my grandfather`s generation did.
Anyway, this is of no importance for the current problems within the EU.
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"hmmmm, the last guy who was suggesting such things was called ... Adolf. Not very complementary for your argument"
What do you call that law again? The one that says "if anyone in the discussion is accused of being 'a Nazi" or 'Adolf Hitler' then one can consider the discussion over."?
Your accusation is analoguous to Nik's tireless accusations of people being "gebbelist" (by which he means "like Joseph Goebbels"). One can find him and all his pseudonyms all over the web if one types "gebbelist" into google.
I did not say anything about DNA. Strangely, it is only the neo-Hellenic fanatics who engage in this bizarre new type of racism. I was talking about cultural links. Ancientr Greece was a vibrant place, an inspiration to the world for many decades and centuries to come, militarily, culturally and economically speaking. Today's Greece simply epitomises decline and decadence to many people.
Let's stay with the topic for just 5 minutes. Let's not accuse each other of being Hitler, Goebbels, Stalin, Metaxa or some other historical figure :-). The Greek crisis will bring about the end of the European Union. The question is - will the Greece to harm European nations and drag a few nations down with it or will it quietly and modestly revert to being a second or third world nation without causing too much trouble?
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Just a short interjection here: Ctesibius did not invent the piston.
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@Chris Camp
On Post 208 you wrote:
"In short, none of Greece's problems are Britain's fault. Greece must learn to exercise genuine self-criticism. It should stop blaming others and it should start taking a look at where it went wrong itself."
This is only partialy true.
Firstly you are right Greece has to make genuine and honest self-criticism, we have to think if we can live the way we do. Do we really need all the stuff we import from various Contries around the world. For instance just think who gets the most out of this problem in Aegean Sea. Is it our neighbors? Is it Greece? Is it the weapon Industries? Is it the banks that lend us money to buy the weapons?
Apart from that we really need to consider what this political system does for the country and what the country does for the political system. It is true that our politicians are the worst there is. They destroyed this country and now they want us to trust them to save us... Prety much this is true for the european union as well. We now hear the Germans say "No we will not save you from this" or we hear them say "We will help you but we want something in return, what do you say is 3% interest good for you?". And it the same Germans that can't control their conpanies and what they do, please refer to Siemens and what this company did to many nations in Europe. Or it is the same Germans that stay safe in the center of Europe and leave Greece deal with all the people coming illegaly from asia.
All these were written just to tell you that yes we made this to ourselves. Yes we alone jumped of the cliff but someone else pushed us near the edge. I am not blamming them or asking them my money back but i want them for once understand what they did. And for that last part I keep asking myself will Britain ever say anything about their involvment in the Greek Civil War(it begun with British soldiers fighting the "communists" in Athens).
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#269 ChrisArta
I have heard neither from Ireland, Spain, Portugal or Italy such complaining about them paying their debt as with Greece.
It should not be forgotten that both Spain and Portugal were for many years under brutal dictatorships and blame no one but themselves. Neither do they blame Europe, France, Germany or banks for their overspending.
Both countries removed the dictatorships by themselves and are thankful to Europe for the financial help.
The Greek dictatorship was removed by Turkey, yet contributors blame every one else for their overspending.
It appears that one should not only beware of Greeks bearing gifts , but also of Greeks bearing debt.
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To powermeerkat (237):
In regards of your question on why certain countries are member states of the European Union.
The politically correct answer could be something like..
..European Union tries to increase political stability and security in Europe by transforming unstable countries and unsecured frontiers by offering them development aid and organizational support to transform their respected countries into modern functioning democratic states. The logic being that democratic countries who have strong protection of human rights won't wage wars and aggressive behavior against other democratic countries.
An alternative answer could be something like..
..By bringing more and more countries and their respected resources under the common market with single set of rules and single currency, European economies and businesses can optimize their productive output and utilize world leading economies of scale, enabling setting pace in common regulation and product standardization, thus giving an edge in global competition.
Both answers are more or less true. I myself would put more emphasis on economic and business advantages that the European integration and enlargement has given. For example thanks to Eastern-Central European countries aspiring and then joining the union, it gave amble opportunities for Western European corporations to locate not only manufacturing and production facilities but also research and development activities near their home base: major cost savings with very small political risk. The same is now happening in new member states, in Bulgaria and Romania, European corporations can source their activities there and not to East-Asia. It is a win-win situation for Europeans in general.
PS. I you are wondering about the part of "single set of rules and single currency", that is because all EU countries, excluding Britain and Denmark, are obligated to join the Euro by their ascension treaties. In the following decade we should the rest of the EU members to join the Euro, thus making Eurozone alone to become worlds largest economy. With the faster growth of Eastern-Central European economies and further integration of the Eurozone, Eurozone in best scenario will become the leading engine of world economy.
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Nik@
'
Why some Greeks always blame others for their misdeeds and self inflicted misfortunes?
1923, When the Greek General Papoulias' Army was forced back from the outskirts of Ankara Turkey-after suffering over 10 000 casualties-
he said 'Damn you Georghios', meaning Lloyd George, the then British Prime Minister.
Take a look at close home first.
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@274. Nik
Vassilis said none of these. Tasos did!
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Re270: I am sorry for the error in this message. All my references were to Tasos' message in 268, I wrote once the wrong name and by copy copied it down. Not to Vasilis previous messages with which I do not have any basic disagreement anyway.
If that is the main failure in my above funny message I undertake it.
Nontheless, I am still waiting for a response on the oil. Let me see the type of answers.
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255. Yo d_t
You have any idea off the top of your head how many Free Masons are in the IMF? There is a theory you know.
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David,
I do appreciate your viewpoint and the opinions of almost everyone who posts here and am truly sorry for my previous snide comment.
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@Nik and Co.
Greece has totally lived in its own reality during the past 30 years at the expense of the German taxpayer. In return, it has completely surrendered its market to the German industrialist and exporter. This has created a national mentality in Greece that money falls from the sky, like the biblical manna, and that good qualities like hard work, reason and professionalism are inferior to immorality, cunning plans, and friends in high (or low) places.
Now the foreign money has run out and, to use a well-known Greek saying, 'Gods themselves have to obey Necessity'. In other words, it is high time for the Greeks to shut their mouth and start running to save themselves.
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#283 and others
You now see the confusion you lot are causing on this blog ?
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Nik
Re your #153 & #157 and my #147
Sorry, I have been away again & could only get online this evening.
Your, "..I do not think that 90% of you can stand to the bitter realities..," is just an incredibly self-indulgent personal assertion/assumption by You!
How can You possibly consider that You know more, are better informed, realise deeper thoughts, motives & meanings in the actions of Nations & Leaders, than others who contribute on this Blog? Frankly, just like a few others on here, You lose your argument the moment You start to propose your insight and knowledge is greater than any of us. Your 'realities' are your perspectives/opinions etc. on People and Events and have no more or less credibility than mine or anyone who cares to make a contribution.
I repeat my #147 perspective of your views as presented in your #142 were almost entirely "factually inaccurate", based on a loose grounding of Nations' "History-Culture" stemming from the "Stereotyping" that so marked your previous references to EUropeans only being attacked in the UK - - basically, views/perspectives largely without foundation and as in my #147 "..shallow.." and disappointingly well wide of 'realities'!
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Re279: At 6:07pm on 26 Apr 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
I have heard neither from Ireland, Spain, Portugal or Italy such complaining about them paying their debt as with Greece.
I say:
Comparing Spain, Portugal an Ireland and Italy to Greece as if they are a similar situation is so naif that I do not even need to comment on it. Why not compare Italy to Finnish dwidling economy and Swedish dwindling economy to Portugal? Is it because of the SSS(sea, sex, sun) that make the countries similar? Whatever. These countries stand in completely different geopolitical situations though one cannot ignore some similarities like the fact that since their quite early fall in late Renaissance, no country near the Gibraltar managed to really stand up again. It is no accident (as far as I remember Spain said ciao to "the Rock" 300 years back). Portugal will be directly controlled for fear of introducing to Europe the huge block that is Brazil. Same for Spain and the Latin America world in the Americas. Nothing is unrelated that is for sure.
To be honest I doubt if you ever spoke with Spanish on these issues. So far I have seen no Spanish or Portuguese contributor here as unlike Greeks they do not use anglophone means so much to give their commentaries. I come from a generation of Greeks in which about the 25% of university students passed by Britain either as undergraduates or postgraduate students, and thus our utilisation of BBC boards as such.
quietoaktree wrote:
It should not be forgotten that both Spain and Portugal were for many years under brutal dictatorships and blame no one but themselves. Neither do they blame Europe, France, Germany or banks for their overspending. Both countries removed the dictatorships by themselves and are thankful to Europe for the financial help.
And look where it got them all this help? Strange thing. It seems that EU help cannot work in SSS countries. Do you imply that men there are really satisfied as they eat their own food, they eat others' food as well?
quietoaktree wrote:
The Greek dictatorship was removed by Turkey, yet contributors blame every one else for their overspending.
You would not lose the chance to be offensive with such racist comments.
Let me tell you the real story about the only the only thing that managed Turkey to do for Greece. Well the only thing they managed was to send their 2 best pilots (trainers) on their top aircraft at the time Phantoms to invade in one of the first violation of Greek airspace, which were faced by 2 cadets of 20 years old a top old F5s, one without radar flying on vision only (Greeks send them unarmed as they thought it would be a casual dogfight). Greek cadets faced them at 2-3 minutes from take off having enormous diadvantage, they thought it would be a dogfight and that Turkish airplanes would be unarmed, then 1 Turkish pilot fired a missile on sight of first airplane, but the Greek cadet avoided it while the other cadet dived from the clouds and ripped the Turk apart with his machine gun. The other Turk trainer pilot was so afraid (obviously urinated in his pants) that turned an impressive U-turn, put the afterburner, ended his fuel and tried to land on a turkish road finally preferring the parachute and letting the airplane crash on a habitated sight killing a number of people. Turkish newspapers wrote about 2 Turkish airplanes that shot down 2 Greek planes and they have medals to the Turkish trainer pilot and another randomly chosen one. The Turkish trainer years later met with a Greek team in a NATO conference and told of his "brave meeting with Greek pilots" and the answer that got was "So you killed the Greek pilot? So you think I am a ghost here?" - the Greek guy was the young cadet who was of course promoted quickly all those years (righfully).
I am sorry but this was the only interaction of Turkey with Greece in 1974. Get your facts right. The least one would expect is to show respect to the victims of this barbarous - British commanded - invasion. To teach the A,B,Cs of the politics of that era you are so ignorant as to ignore that there were 2 dictatorships, the first was provoked by the US in 1967, the second in 1973 (what a year eh?) again by US cos they did not like anymore the first one, and then the US arranged with Greek politicians like Karamanlis the hand-out of their months-old 2nd dictatorship.
I also kept for the end the fact that US president Clinton has already apologised to Greece for the terrible manipulation of the country by the US.
Oh! End of story!
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286. At 7:01pm on 26 Apr 2010, g_rizzly wrote:
@Nik and Co.
Greece has totally lived in its own reality during the past 30 years at the expense of the German taxpayer. In return, it has completely surrendered its market to the German industrialist and exporter. This has created a national mentality in Greece that money falls from the sky, like the biblical manna, and that good qualities like hard work, reason and professionalism are inferior to immorality, cunning plans, and friends in high (or low) places.
286. At 7:01pm on 26 Apr 2010, g_rizzly wrote:
Has anyone disagreed to the above? However, from there one what you propose as example?
Grizzly I have seen no difference in any other country I went. Everything you know is a lie. And your biggest institutions and beliefs a huge deception. The difference is that some of the large countries like France, Germany or England there is a large number of people that belong to a world-class high social class and thus they rob the rest who are the little underlings made to work and receive a minimum standard to be happy. That does not change the fact that there is enormous corruption in Germany and France and Britain etc. In other very small countries like Latvia or Icekand the whole economy was based on foam. At least Greece's economy was based on paper, that is something. In countries like Greece - and I underline Greece is a particular case due to its geographic position - to achieve a conviently controlled extremely corrupted political class to accept the unacceptable, corruption had to be spread to a significant part of the society, hence the 30%-70% law I have mentioned repeatedly here. That is no secret. And it is no mystery how things end when such a system is imposed. Now get back to your own governement (be it Germany, France or Britain) and ask yourself, how much corrupted could they be to accept the lies of successive Greek governments when even primary kids in Greece knew Greek economy was far from ready not only in books but also structurally to enter the eurozone.
286. At 7:01pm on 26 Apr 2010, g_rizzly wrote:
Now the foreign money has run out and, to use a well-known Greek saying, 'Gods themselves have to obey Necessity'. In other words, it is high time for the Greeks to shut their mouth and start running to save themselves.
You should not worry about greeks working. We have said this: Greek working people are the most hardworking as per EU results and surpass in working hours even their US counterparts. I only need to give the example of my brother. He works per day 8 hours in a private firm, 2 to 3 hours part time in public education and in the evening, the late 2 or sometimes 3 hours (as well as weekends) is occupied with his own little business. Go tell him to shut his mouth and start running. I do not dare, he is more muscled than me and he will beat me blue.
Grizzly, we have already spoken on this. And I will never cease to say so, Greece is not the question here. If it was what we have know would have been the story 15 years back. Greece would not had enterred the eurozone and would not had taken any european votes to get the Olympics.
This story goes on 6 months now and started the first week of the new government. Why? Why not in earlier 2009? Why wait for the new PASOK government? Why not in 2008 with all those huge (anyway artificially invoked) riots? Why not in 2007 with all those (purposefully lit) huge fires? Why? What changed now? The sincirety of Mr. Papandreou? Are we kidding?
I am amazed you have not shorted the details yet after all what has been said.
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#280. At 6:15pm on 26 Apr 2010, Jukka Rohila
I would like to add a reason to the size of the union: Some governments thought that an enlargement of the union with poor and heterogenous countries from East Europe could prevent further integration in the union of 18 (?).
I shall once again mention that politicians from the government as well as the opposition in Berlin today express a wish to get a coordinated finance policy in the union. (I assume they mean the Euro zone.)
It means more "Bruxelles", and I think everybody knows what the position of for instance the Tories is.
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Just a few reflections on the 'Heliad' which I know as the 'Iliad' debate.
It is essentially a Greek epic poem of circa 8th Century BC and is generally attributed to Homer: In its 24 or so books of dactylic hexameter verse it details the events of the last days of the fabled Trojan War.
The verse concentrate on the withdrawal of legendary warrior-in-chief Achilles from the combat zone and the disastrous effects of this action on the Greek Campaign.
Thanks to superb research efforts of Schliemann & his successors the Trojan War in now known to have been an historical event of circa 13th Century BC: However, the glorious contest and characters portrayed & described in the Iliad is hardly likely to have been the factual reality.
Controversy still surrounds whether the Ionian poet Homer was 1 or several, but whichever, there is no doubting the literary greatness of the epic Iliad.
The dialect of the poem is primarily Ionic with a fair amount of Acolic: Both language idioms stemming from inhabitants of Ionia.
Unfortunately for Nik and modern day Greeks who would pronounce it as evidence of a lineage stemming over some 30+ centuries this is simply unfeasible. The world of the Trojan War was very imperfectly recalled in the Homeric Poem, written several centuries later. Some of the material is traditional and can be traced back to centuries even before the 13th, other parts are directly from the 7th & 8th centuries (see the style of weapons etc.); anachronisms abound and often stem from the deliberate attempt of the 'modern 8th Century BC Athenian' attempting to portray Athens' role much more favourably than that of her enemies ('ancient' & 'modern'). Much of that tampering was during the recitations in the days of Pisistratus and the evolving Panthenaic Festivals.
Suffice to say the Iliad is a magnificent read, but Greek 21st Century AD it is not.
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Ugh, one more detail on Jukka's post: I expect Denmark to change its position on the Euro after the next general election no later than November 2011.
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Re288: CBW, there is the standard official storyline, and there is the real storyline behind. It is not difficult to find out the truth - at last the basic lines of it - you only need to scratch. Just a bit. From there on, I was never present in any WWII British war council, 1960s CIA meeting or EU treaty to tell you here any inside stories. I analyse and say.
And certainly when I said so, I never expected you a British, almost certainly having relatives that fought and died in WWII to accept what I say. But what I say is not in relation to these people, but to the strategic interests below the surface, at a level where the enemy is not so much the enemy and the ally is not so much the ally either. Anyway, what I suggest to you is to keep your disagreements but maintain an open eye and mind where you find something that "somehow" does not fit in the general picture and "somehow" fits with what I said here.
It is not any stubborness of mine to present this case nor to play the smart one (and do not care if I resemble to do so). It is a firm belief on these specific points and up to date I have never found anyone one that could shake them convincingly - on the contrary I keep finding more and more people from all walks of life and all backgrounds who are already aware on a lot of such issues in detail (WWI, WWII etc.).
Amazingly contrary to what dear Marcus presents here, American citizens, for long accused to be naif (and in reality they were never more than Europeans in that sense anyway...), tend to be much more suspicious those days. There are plenty of them who are dissilusioned so much that question their governments', as well as others' intentions. Good for them. Knowledge is always welcome. Even if you will not be able to do something about it at least you know what game you are part of. The distinction between a free man and a sheep.
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Greeks are looking for money?
Wealthy Greeks deposited 5 billion Euros to Cyprus banks last few months.
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"You would not lose the chance to be offensive with such racist comments."
Ladies and gentlemen, what you can witness in the above post is an example of how concepts change their meaning through repeated incorrect use of certain words. "Racism", according to one participant in this blog, is not discriminating against a certain colour of skin or a people of a certain ethnic origin. Rather, it now means "not believing there is a continuity between ancient Greeks and modern 'Greeks'" or "believing that Turkish people are capable of being good like everyone else and they helped Greece more than once in the past". That, according to the new southern Balkans narrative, is the new definition of "racism".
Here is an additional instance when Turkey helped Greece when it couldn't help itself. During WW2, when Greece was on the brink of total starvation, Turkey was the only nation that sent a ship with goods and foodstuffs to Greece. It is the proud story of the SS Kurtulus. This happened only 19 years after the Turkish War of Independence, when Turkish people had to defend their very existence against the Greek aggressor. Not only did they senf the goods, they also worked hard to diplomatically pressure the British to temporarily lift the blockade on Greece, which was the British Empire's only way of disrupting the German occupiers' operation in Greece.
But it does not matter how much the Turks do for Greece. To many people in the southern Balkans, the Turks are subhuman. They look down on the Turks, regardless of the fact that they have absolutely no reason to do so. Ever since the beginning of the Turkish republic, Turkey has been much more successful than Greece in almost every respect, militarily, culturally, scientifically... A Turkish personb, to some people in the southern Balkans will always be just a "Turkomongoloid" (Nik) subhuman. Ironic that these are the same people who accuse other people of racism.