Can eurozone fix Greece?
The time of shadow-boxing, of feints and jabs, is drawing to a close. The rounds left are few. Over the weeks ahead Greece must find billions to service its deficit. The moment approaches when it can either raise the money at a reasonable price, or it defaults or it is bailed out.
Even as all parties await the bell, the game goes on. Outsiders are still pouring on the pressure on Athens.
Their plans to reduce their deficit don't cut it. That was the view of a high-powered team from the European Union and the European Central Bank (ECB) which was in Athens last week. Their verdict: you'll miss your targets and you have to slash spending further. How do we know this? The Greek Economics Minister Louka Katseli, among others, has let us in on what he was told.
Even at this late hour others weigh in. The head of the 16-nation Eurogroup, Jean-Claude Juncker, says: "Greece must understand that taxpayers in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands are not prepared to correct Greek fiscal policy mistakes". The French Economy Minister, Christine Lagarde, reminded everyone that the euro was built on the premise that "there would be no bail-out, because everyone had to play by the same rules and had to respect the same discipline".
At the end of last week the Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou sounded like a man who knew he needed to do more. "Will we let the country go bankrupt?" he asked, "or will we react?" So he may this week announce yet more austerity measures, perhaps a further cut in benefits or a hike in sales tax. He must hope he can squeeze his public sector some more whilst keeping the rioters at bay.
Some European leaders still hope somehow Greece can convince the markets that it can cut its deficit by 4% this year and avoid any rescue.
However, the believers out there are few. Giant hedge funds have placed their bets; the euro will drop further. In their view the euro's inherent weaknesses are not being addressed. Most senior European officials believe some kind of bail-out will be needed.
While they watch these latest moves George Papandreou is set to travel to Berlin on Friday to meet Angela Merkel. It is a key meeting. If Greece is to be rescued by Europe the Germans will have to be at the heart of it. The German people are against; it was their big fear when they gave up their beloved Deutschmark that they would end up bailing out the reckless.
However in the background rescue plans are being discussed. One possibility is that the German state lender KfW and France's Caisse des Depots will buy Greek bonds - but behind such a move will lie taxpayers' money. It could not be finessed away. The line will have been crossed; that weak countries that buck the rules will get bailed out. For even as European leaders demand that Greece do more, they reveal their final position. Christine Lagarde said it was "out of the question" that Greece should leave the euro. Angela Merkel has said that for the first time the euro is in a difficult position but "it will stand its ground".
If Germany's big banks step in, where will it end? Will it steady the financial markets or will the same institutions have to underwrite Spanish, Portuguese and Italian debt?
What about the marked differences in competitiveness within the eurozone between Germany, France and some of the southern European countries - how will that be fixed? Will Germany abandon its culture of thrift in order to stoke up demand and so help out other economies?
And that is where - like some massive storm detected on radar - a fierce argument lies ahead. Some of the battle lines are being drawn. On the one hand are those who say that there cannot be a successful single currency when monetary policy is determined for all and fiscal policy remains in the hands of the nation states. Jacques Attali, the founding President of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD), is the latest voice to call for one European economic policy. "So even if public opinion is for the moment against a single tax and fiscal policy for all of Europe," he said,"Europeans will have to go along at some point. Without it, the euro will not survive". He does not indicate how public opinion will be persuaded or whether such a fundamental change to the sovereignty of the eurozone states should be put to the voters.
Say Europe ended up with a single treasury, either via the back door or through popular will, what would be the impact on those 11 countries outside the eurozone? They would be part of a single market where some countries have common tax and spending plans. There would be potential for dangerous divisions. Angela Merkel, for one, is unpersuaded and sees the scope for problems. "It would be wrong," she said, "to have a coordinated economic policy for the Eurogroup while the others can do what they want, because we are of course closely linked to our other neighbours through trade".
Whether Greece is bailed out or not this fundamental argument lies ahead. It is out there, on the horizon.
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Bail out Greece and the markets move on to Portugal and Spain. Can Germany afford that?
Similarly, why should Ireland continue to take the painful medicine?
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The daily details of a crisis can sometimes cover the view of the bigger picture. Has europe come all this way just to flounder on a banking issue. I think the landscape will soon show a move towards more central economic and political control. After all isn't that the mission of the Euro project.
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The Euro was a political concept ; designed more to bind European countries together to an eventual Single Federal state . From the functioning and economic point of view , it has been little thought through . If all the countries money is worth the same ; people in poor countries can buy a Mercedes car as easily as a German . They are encouraged to spend more than they should ever think to afford .
It is my opinion , that Greece should be allowed to leave the Euro and return to the Drakma ; which would enable them to sort out their own problems , without drawing the rest of the EU too deeply into the argument . I think if you asked the people of a number of countries whether they wanted to remain with the Euro , they would choose to return to their former currency . I believe many Italians would welcome a return to the Lira .
As I see the current delemmas and arguments ; the bitterness and enmity of northern countries having to bail out Greece and maybe Spain , Portugal and Italy , might bring about a break up of the European Uniom . That might not be a bad thing ! Perhaps it would give sovereign states the opportunity to rethink the whole project , to unite again in a looser relationship of sovereign states , without a Brussels headquaters , the EU Commission and it huge and wasteful Bureaucracy .
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Serves the Eurozone right. They wanted to make a currency that would equal the dollar and they accepted fudged economic statements from the poorer countries like Greece,Spain,Portugal,Italy and to some extent, though not so bad, Ireland.
Let them stew in their own mire of a one size fits all economy and then reflect on what they wanted to achieve, a federal Europe, will never be.
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It was always just a matter of time before the Euro currency block broke up. I never thought it would last as long as fifty years. It is looking increasingly likely that it won't even last fifteen.
Who still thinks we should we join it?
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Gavin, your last paragraph is interesting. Logically (leaving aside political reality for the moment) Europe must centralise its Fiscal and Monetary policy arrangements if the Euro is to be sustained.
For the EU non euro zone members this means that either: They leave, or are ejected, from the EU because of their competitive advantage -as perceived- of an independent currency
or they can use the crises as an opportunity to both finally join the euro on condition that the necessary fundamental reforms plus others are implemented (Paul Krugman's Piece the making of a euromess in the in a recent NYT provides a handy summary)so, double or quits, either go all the way or leave. To acknowledge the old irish joke we shouldn't have started from here - but now that we are here Europe can't stand still.
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So it sounds as though the euro-thinkers are finally concluding what many of us have suspected for years - you can't have a common economy while leaving individual nations to formulate their own social and political policies and spending plans. However if there is no appetite - here or anywhere else- for our politics to be decided in Brussels and administered to us by "foreigners", then neither the Euro or the EU has an attractive future.
Ms Merkel's concerns about countries outside the eurozone going it alone and somehow upsetting the apple cart are surely a revealing condemnation of the notion - supported by so many in this country - that we signed up for nothing more than a free trading zone. If each nation sets its own rules the whole thing must ultimately end in a dutch auction and an orgy of competitive devaluation/revaluation.
Sooner or later the choice has to come - United States of Europe or out altogether.
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7 comments including mine all come to the same conclusion.
Let get out of the EU.
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Mr. Hewitt, it seems that the crisis is going to reach its peak once Mr. Papandreou will be given quite an unpleasant answer from Frau Angela Merkel, this week. If Paris & Berlin give way to Greece today, they shall be compelled to do the same for Ireland, Portugal or Italy tomorrow.
Bulgaria is still outside of the Euro zone. But who cares? Twelve years ago, our authorities paid special attention to the crucial role the Bulgarian National Bank had to play in the pre-crisis and crisis periods when acting more as a lender of first resort rather than a lender of last resort (LOLR). As a result, Bulgaria managed to overcome the crisis of 1996-1997 by introducing a second generation currency board allowing the central bank to act strictly as a limited LOLR, thereby making the country less prone to a financial crisis in the future. Well, the result is good, but the national currency is still fixed to the Euro, the exchange rate remaining €1= BGL1,95583 ever since 1998! As a result of the eventual devaluation of the European currency we shall be forced to pay more contributions to the EU budget like all the remaining countries of the Euro zone… In a word, at the same position like all those 16 members of the euroteam.
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So the sage goes on doesn't it Gavin? Thank you for your update on Greece and her circumstances which offers some useful if downbeat assessments. I have been a follower of this situation without posting before but have spotted people saying that notayesmanseconomics web blog was offering some useful insights. I have to say that his themes of political incompetence and grandstanding as well as the flaws are the heart of the Euro constitution are coming more and more evident. It is a shame that his prescription for Greece is not being followed.
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My trust in the average quality of the government of the member states states (extremely low) is currently lower than my trust in the quality of EU government (low). At least in the EU there is a certain amount of peer pressure between the different states to keep things in order. Probably not enough, though...
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i agree with euromartin and expect central control will be imposed like the constitution/treaty throughout europe without a mandate from the electorate
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Reporting on Greece and its economic woes has been ignorant at times, positively disingenuous at others, feeding the finance speculation machine. Goldman Sachs et al reap the dividends off of journalists not knowing the backwaters of the smaller economies. Case in point: Louka Katseli is a she. Not a he, dear Gavin.
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Why would Greece leave the Euro? If they went back to the Drachma or something else its value would be just about zero.
The Greeks have the technology to print Euros until the cows come home; what could anyone do to stop them?
The eurozone is a monolith - it either works as a unit or it disintegrates completely. The latter is a political impossibility and so Greece can simply brass it out and let Germany etc decide what to do about it. Apart from anything else, the Greeks simply haven't the resources to do anything else.
They, and others, should never have been allowed in, but now that they are in there's nothing anyone can do about it except rescue them.
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"The French Economy Minister, Christine Lagarde, reminded everyone that the euro was built on the premise that "there would be no bail-out, because everyone had to play by the same rules and had to respect the same discipline".
It sounded good when it was said. Of course like everything that Europeans say and promise it turned out to be nothing more than empty words. Remember when Tonly Blair said when he was the EU President how he was going to make the EU the best place in the world to do business? David Cameron just said the same about Britain. More European empty words again? Lots of platitutes, little or no real action, that is what Europe is all about. And what action there is is usually clumsy and heavy handed.
The relatively better off EU and Euroland nations will rebuild the poorer ones just the way the US helped Europe, Japan, and Southeast Asian tigers build their economies...with self sacrifice. But there is a difference. Those countries had several decades to sort out their problems, Europe doesn't. Maybe a few years or a decade or two at most. And immigration from them to the US was controlled and they were far away. Greeks and citizens from the other PIIGs can migrate freely to the more affluent countries. They did not share a common currency with the US either. It isn't clear to me that the Euro will collapse if Greece defaults. It might not. Those fears might be unwarranted. But what is clear is that if the EU does not bail out the poorer countries it took on pretending that they were somehow equals and make real sacrifices until they are equals in fact, then there will be social chaos and the only way to keep that from spreading to the richer EU countries will be to break up the EU and restrict free emigration within it. Europe has effectively slit its own throat. Now Germany, France, and the UK will bleed money to the PIIGS and other nations such as those in Eastern Europe. The question remains will these be mere contiuation of the subsidies to retain the same corrupt inefficient societies the EU took into its empire or will they actually force change to them by making help conditional on removing resistance to change. There are major political battles ahead both within these countries and among the EU nations with each other. There will be a great deal of anger when the true nature of the EU can no longer be hidden or ignored.
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The concept of monetary union within Europe was always deeply flawed economically. The 'strict' criteria that had to be met for Euro membership never really existed - countries just fudged their way in. There is also a common misconception that all continental Europeans are massive Euro-enthusiasts. That is simply not the case - if you go to many European countries and talk to the populace there are a large number of people dead against the single currency and further moves to give away their sovereignty but, as always, their political elite steam-rollers the views of the public for their own benefit.
The only reason for remaining within the EU is if you believe in a federal European superstate. And I, for one, do not. Get out of this bureaucracy while we still can and enjoy free trade with them while maintaining our treasured independence.
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This blog now makes sense:
- The Euro rules must be adjusted to be such that real union is ensured
- We should join the Euro to have some say into what those new rules must be like
- The Euro will go on despite the negative attention it gets because of a country less than 3% of the Eurozone total
- This crisis was a good wake up to ensure a crisis management mechanism is build into the Euro, you can't assume everyone will follow the same rules regards of what the French minister said. Always you must assume that is there is a chance for something to go wrong, it will go wrong and one must be ready to deal with a crisis.
- The Euro down to pure financial facts it is still a far better currency to have that the USD, GRB or the host of 16 other currencies it replaced.
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Bailing out Greece will not solve the problem, only defer it.
Greece and other countries entered the eurozone by cooking the books, and have been doing so ever since.
This situation will only be corrected when all eurozone countries have to submit to external auditing of the national accounts. Then the cat will really be out of the bag.
And by the way Gavin, I'm pleased you did not repeat this ludicrous deficit figure of 12.70%.
Anyone in Greece will tell you it is closer to 20%, and that is optimistic.
One last point, a relatively small Greek bank controlled by Credit Agricole recently had to admit to huge losses last year. The bigger banks, without foreign control and auditing, do not admit anything.
One is tempted to be cynical.
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Greece is only important as a precedent. If Greece is bailed out once, it will have to be periodically bailed out again, and again and again in the future. Essentially the bargain on offer to Greece here is the classic EU one of ever greater political subservience to France and Germany in exchange for cash subsidies, in this case the outsourcing of the management of the Greek economy in exchange for 30 billion euro.
If this bargain is struck once for Greece, it will also set a precedent for other eurozone economies, notably Italy whose budget deficit this year is not massive, but whose accumulated deficit (115% of GDP) is greater than Greece’s and which like Greece has seen a big cost competiveness gap open up relative to German labour costs. Bailing out an Italy a few years from now will be far more painful for French and German taxpayers than bailing out Greece. Whatever precedent is set for Greece in 2010 will set the stage for the far more existential test of the euro that is to come.
UK voters would never accept the bargain of political subservience to France and Germany in return for a bailout. Even if the UK needed a bailout the tried and tested IMF would be the appropriate solution to that problem. The UK budget deficit this year is very large, but the accumulated debt is only 56% of GDP which is lower than in Germany.
Federalists want to use this crisis as an excuse for more European integration. That is why they refuse to use the IMF to bailout Greece (inventing bogus accusations that the IMF is American dominated when the reality is that the IMF has always been headed by a European while the World Bank has always been led by an American) and seek instead to recreate the IMF within the eurozone. If Merkel and Sarkozy want to use this crisis to introduce a European economic government with powers of taxation then the UK should, as a bare minimum, block this until it gets agreement for a new European treaty to replace Lisbon that will restore powers to Westminster, beginning with employment and social policy. The USA and other countries should also raise concerns because by transferring Greek and other PIIGS risk to European institutions, the Federalists are actually increasing the risk of a bigger Eurozone breakdown in the future with consequences that would cause widespread harm to the global economy that would dwarf that of the Argentina or Asian financial crisis of the past decade. EU federalists may be prepared to subordinate the health of the world economy to their myopic dream, but i see no reason why the rest of the world should tolerate their recklessness. If banks are too big to fail now, then surely it is a bad idea to create a single point of failure in the world economy with all of Southern Europe becoming quasi-permanently dependent on periodic bailouts from Paris and Berlin, especially considering that Germany is an ailing giant, with one of the fastest declining populations on Earth and the slowest growing economy in the Western World for the last two decades.
The time has come for the rest of the world to say ‘no more’ to this federalist madness when it begins to introduce greater risk into the world economy. Greece should be handled by the IMF and the eurozone should be like the CFA-zone in West Africa with a flexible membership that requires countries that lose competitiveness to exit and possibly re-join later at a lower exchange rate, with no covert agenda that countries that use the CFA currency are 'a state under construction'.
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"culture of thrift"
Looking from a broader prospective to the EU, the Greek case should be taken as a gift from the heaven. At last someone is willing to spend. A different culture. Something the Japan economy is lacking.
If the EU were conceived as a balanced organization, the German tax-payers should finally recognize they have got what they wanted. It is not the bell to abandon the euro. Their only problem is in fact and at the moment to cut the spending.
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If Germans are clever enough would leave the god damn Euro and go back to deutschemark , and then i want to see who will rescue who
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Two thoughts to consider:
Greece may not be a tethered calf but it has sure brought the wolves out of the forest.
Two bulls in a field saw that the gate to the field the cows were in had been left open. The younger bull said to the elder: "Lets rush down a get a couple of cows". The older bull replied:" Lets walk down and take the lot".
The two bulls are certainly not going to bellow while they are doing so, are they?
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@Philip
If Euro was not in the middle of these, Greece would go to IMF without to much fuss to pay for its excessive borrowing during the last years with all the consequences (austerity measures etc.) and indecencies of the IMF, but that would be the end of story.
Now the situation is very perplexed and I think after all my friend
MarcusAureliusII has a point. Some people want to maintain their empire. Let's go back to national currencies, this is what the people of the countries want, Greee to IMF. End of story. Greeks do not want to be bailed out by others.
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ChrisArta
Your first sentence says it all.
And: "In Maastricht, we set in motion an Economic and Monetary Union. We have now achieved the monetary union, and we possess a single market, but we remain far from having shaped an economic union, the pressing need for which, nevertheless, has been highlighted by the present crisis.
From the joint statement by José Zapatero and Herman van Rompuy, Italics mine.
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You can (just about) have political union without monetary union but you cannot, as is now being proved, have monetary union without political union.
The premature introduction of the Euro was an attempt to force political union as aconsequence of monetary union.
So the stark choice for Eurozone members is to retain the Euro and abandon political independence or to abandon the Euro and revert to being a trading bloc a la The Common Market.
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' Who still thinks joining the Euro is a good idea? ' Unfortunately for all of us , Marshwiggle, Lord Mandelson and all his buddies, thats who
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Mr. Hewitt;
When you are finished with the Greek crisis I have a suggestion for you: Take a good look at what is going on in Lady Ashton's office. It will also bring you back to the UK.
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I'm confused about some terms and typical phrases here in this blog.
A bailout in the context of this blog seems to be a massive loan ..on the condition of the recipient's fiscal austerity...
In other words, Greece is having trouble financing its debt...
so the loan(s) = new bonds bought by rich(er) countries OR
do these richer countries send the loan monies to existing bonds as interest payments that Greece is in danger of defaulting on?
AND
To 'Print Money'--
I keep hearing this phrase here and it makes NO sense ..there is not such a thing, I'm rather sure...
Ive heard of low interest rates leading to loans which lead to investment which leads to production and consumption--theoretically,
but 'printing money' seems rather a moaning little phrase to decribe this practice....
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The EU was organized by the banks and big business for their own benefit. Banks are going to help out Greece? The banks caused the collapse and now insist that governments have better plans...even though the banks gambled everyone's money away. Most countries are facing economic challenges, and don't forget the banks caused all of this, and had their economist draw some charts showing how, over time they will deal with the crisis, mainly borrowing from the banks that caused the collapse and were bail-out themselves with public taxes. The impotent governments kow-towing to the bankers even though the public owns great shares of the banks. Influence is often used when talking about banks and government but it exceeds influence it is control and this is dangerous for the fundementals of government.
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I am not at all surprised. Fond though I am of Greece and Italy in particular, both are virtually ungovernable countries.
The biggest financial shock the world has known for some time is bound to cause some problems, particularly in a currency where the fiscal and monetary disciplines are disconnected.
In all of history, there has never been monetary union before political union. Think of the US Dollar issued in 1792 with independence in 1776 (a multiplicity of continental currencies existed in the interregnum) or the Roman Denari/Cisterces which was not formalised until early AD. You have to have political union and stability before implementing monetary union. The cat was let out of the bag by Oscar LaFontaine when German Finance Minister, talking about harmonised taxation. He was right. Yes timescales are very different these days but the political union is a necessary condition for stable monetary union. In some ways this is more important because of the size and speed of global financial transactions.
The protagonists of the single currency were either stupid or they had a hidden agenda. The Euro is a political answer to a banking problem and the solution should have been a banking solution to encourage the single market of harmonised prices etc.
The inevitable outcome at the moment, given that Greece (or Spain, Portugal or Italy) will not be 'allowed' to leave the Euro which would be far too big an admission of failure, is that the big two, France and Germany, will end up bailing them out (effectively buying them) and therefore controlling them in some way - there must be a quid pro quo to German and French taxpayers.
It will not be immediate and may be insidious but it will happen. Ireland will escape if, as it appears, it is prepared to take the necessary measures to calm down their 'tiger' economy. Scotland beware - the problems originated in Edinburgh and an independent Scotland within the Eurozone would end up at least as badly off as Ireland - a lot worse if RBS and HBOS were genuinely Scottish banks rather than only having a nominal HQ north of the border.
There are some in those southern countries who will welcome this Euro-nationalisation but I suspect many voters (aka protesters) will not and therein seeds of discontent will be sown. Expect more problems in these Eurozone countries. Strikes and other actions will discourage tourism, their biggest earner.
The UK is better out of it. There is no way the ECB could have rescued our stupid banks in the same way as HMG/BoE did. Nor would it be particularly interested in rescuing the UK economy without the same happening to us. Schadenfreude! If we end up with a lower exchange rate for some time and hence a more competitive economy, so be it.
Whoever wins the election this year, we are by and large in control of an integrated political and monetary system. There is no justification for us being expelled from the EU because the opt-out was negotiated. So we will in the end win, as will France and Germany of course. It may take some time for our mountainous national debt (doubled courtesy of two of our big banks) to come under control but this will be done, whoever is in power. The bond markets (or the journalists looking for a headline) are being disingenuous by talking about a down rating - the UK has been through two major world wars in the last century and complete bankruptcy fighting them and has survived. We will survive again.
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@' Who still thinks joining the Euro is a good idea? '
Everyone who lives in the real world and works and trades with our neighbours, that who.
For me 100% lets join the Euro tomorrow if we could please.
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Re mes2: Ironfranco, yes alright, nice all that finance mumbo jumbo, but why don't you see the greater game? I mean we sit and talk about how to play with our currencies to improve the finances of our states and forget that it is exactly all that mumbo jambo that causes and re-causes crises. Instead steady economies are based on solid grounds, a nice energy policy followed by a healthy production base.
And in Bulgaria what do we have? (like earlier in Greece) a massive des-industrialisation and a brand new pro-US government (surprise! same like Greece!) that wants to hinder the deployment of the Russian pipeline project (surprise! same like Greece!).
And please let me comment on that cos it is no kidding. Back in 2008 both Greece governed by ND right wing party and Bulgaria governed by BSP socialist party had signed the agreement with Russia for going on the Russia-Bulgaria-Greece gaz pipeline project. I have stated this 100 times, but I will state it again - this is a project of huge importance for both countries.
Now, back in 2008, in Greece, the PASOK socialist party (a pro-US party!!!! led by 3rd in row US-passport holder grandson Papandreou) commented that the project had... environmental deficit. Funnily exactly the same was stated by pro-US leader of GERB populist right wing part Borisov. Which can only bring laughter as a pipeline is a pipeline and gaz is gaz and a gaz pipeline has less environmental impact than a common railway or a highway.
Now, what is strange is that in late 2008 in Athens, Greece during some usual as-if anarchist gathering (i.e. gauche-caviar: most of them are sons of politicians, highly paid actors, journalists etc. i.e. the sons of the very mafia system, you will find no working peoples' sons there...), there is a teenager that was murdered by 1 policeman under strange conditions prompting all those as-if anarchists to go out in the streets and with impunity start smashing everything. Ironically at the VERY SAME WEEK in Sofia, Bulgaria, again a young student was being murdering prompting "local" NGOs (of course of dubious origins) to go out in the streets and protesting for days. I will commend the murder of the boy in Athens further down - do not know more details for the student in Bulgaria other than the fact he was murdered satanically "coincidentially" the very same week prompting also protests.
Then, both PASOK and GERB parties in respective countries talked about the ruling parties' incapability to govern and other such things. By mid-2009 in Bulgraria there where programmed elections, however in Greece the normal elections had to be in late 2011 - albeit the government declared itself incapable to govern anymore under the pretext of the burden of successive attacks on scandals and such (no matter if scandals like SIEMENS - Germans ha! - included also the PASOK party equally while other scandals were certainly no bigger than the recent PASOK scandals not to say they were dwarfed...) ... mostly it was the inability of the governement with a slight majority to elect a president in the oncoming presidential elections (president is elected by parliament, mostly being a "head of state" typical position).
So how nice, both neighbouring EU countries changing governements, the one from right wing to socialist, the other from socialist to right wing and both new governments being pro-US with the greek PM being a US citizen, and then the first thing they do is to put aside the gaz project and alienate Russia all-together.
What do you make out of all that?
Well, I'll tell you what I make by analysing a bit the murders, these 2 parallel murders who cannot be accidental. And note this: I do not even consider them to be anything bigger than a small part to the overall picture of US effort to destabilise completely the region and keep it away from Russia.
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So lets take the Greek murder:
Early December, some random protest by anarchists. Who are anarchists in Greece? Put it simply, not any working peoples' sons, it is the sons of the rich and the powerfull: Sons of high ranking politicians, sons of high-profile (left-wing / gauche-caviar) actors, sons of judges, sometimes even high ranking military people - i.e. sons of the last people you would imagine feeling the necessity for abiding with anarchy. In a recent random arrest of 200 people the 1/4th of them were the "kids" (25 and 30 year olf people of course!) of well known political/judiciary/cultural life of the country. Of course all them were released within hours despite having or alledgedly having commited grave actions.
I stress on that: like communists in Greece were organised by the British and paid and armed by them in the WWII to provoke the civil war, anarchists similarly seem to appear massively whenever Greece does something that the US does not like. Funnily but not accidentallt, anarchists will simply take just any position which goes against the interests of the country and often they do that by abiding even to FYROMian nationalism, Albanian fascism, Turkish nazism and islamist fundamendalism without having any major problem of conscioussness all that to accuse an as-if existing Greek totalitarian state that exists of course only in their distorted minds. What do you make out of all that? Well rich kids protesting out in the streets for unknown reasons hunting phantoms of totalitarianism in Greece while seeming to be perfectly ok with all the extremists of the neighbourhood... I let you make your own judgement. It reminds us a lot the as-if anti-american 17N (17th November) "terrorist" group whose members were known to common police officers since 1979 but were not allowed to arrest them "order from above" and things were even more restrained when the Americans went in (to protect the terrorists of course) with 17N murdering people that had little to absolutely nothing to do with the political realities of the country (like British arms dealer Sanders - who knew him anyway?) - i.e. doing simply murders asked "from above". Finally, when the organisation served its cause they arrested some of the members but still having been imprisoned in "special prisons" no Greek has the guarantee that they are in prison and not in Seychelles subbathing.
So these are the organised and very well led anarchists in Greece (so they have an "archon" (they are not without rule, they are ruled perfectly). Of course, with all that US-paid left-wing propaganda in Greece they are able to draft the victims too, young children like the one murdered who are there as the "meat" (this grave expression is theirs, is not mine!).
So, after all that intro lets see the details of the murder: after the protests and some minor fight with police, a group of alledgly kids moved along a side street (it is always a side street!). They were supposed to be just a group of 15years old kids, albeit after the murder many eye-witnesses (most if not all of them anarchists) seemed to be rather grown ups - few of them anyway went out to speak openly with their names and their names were not so much discussed in the press (why? is there any fear not knowing them?). So kids moved aggressively against 2 policemen - then according to witnesses the kids left and the policement came back to revenge shooting with a gun. According to the policemen, it did not happen like that, they were two of them confronted by a group of aggressive kids who attacked them and one of them (policeman Korkoneas) used his gun to shoot in the air and one of the shots hit somewhere "or maybe as he put his pistol in the pocket it fired accidentally due to still having his finger accidentally there and the bullet hitting somewhere and finding... the kids'... heart directly.
I am very concerned when I hear such type of policemen murdering people... policeman firing 2 (or 3 shots - nobody knows clearly, why, bullets are not measured?) and finding the kids' bullet. I mean our (and most other countrys') policement cannot kill a cow at 5 meters distance with a machine gun... wow! but how they can find the heart of a 15 years old kid in motion is quite impressive. Ok it was a ricochet, accidents happen. BUT anarchist bystanders said the policeman killed in cold blood the kid aiming directly at it - so how about that? could it be a ricochet at a straight line? And how about the whole story of the anarchists - the 2 policemen going back to hassle the kids just because they swore at them in a country where policement are harassed by anarchists every day and not doing anything... well not that I would ever take any anarchist as a serious witness but their story just does not stand. Not that this nulifies at this point the alledged responsibility of policeman Korkoneas.
However, everything becomes much more interesting at the results of the whole murder scene and the necropsy over the poor kids' (Alexis Grigoropoulos) body. There was a bullet in the heart of the kid that had marks of being ricocheted "probably to a cement block found nearby on ground". But the bullet had enterred the kids' body from above! I.e. a bullet ricocheted from below the ground enterring the kids' body from above! The only explanation that the doctor could give was that the kid had a considerable forward inclination i.e. such an inclination that he was either tying his shoelaces, or bending doing gymnastics, or being on a forward jump falling or physically fighting with one of the policemen... But nobody mentioned any physical fight between the policemen and the group of kids.. and while other possibilities are still there it is difficult to imagine that during such a violent verbal confrontation the kid would have time to see his untied shoe lace. Perhaps throwing an item with force? That means it would be at a large distance from the policeman (and that the bullet would fly low from the ground, impossible angle...) which was not the case as everyone agreed that the group and the policemen where close together.
So is there any other logical explanation? Yes. It comes from Iran, it comes from Venezuela. People shot at anti-Ahmadinedjad and anti-Chavez protests (wow! both anti-US presidents! put ND and BSP parties with their Gazprom signatures there...). In both protests, people where shot directly on the head. All of them not in the major demonstrations where one should expect policemen to loose control and open fire directly on the ground but all murders happening in smaller side streets. All murders being so successful as killing at a rate of 100% on the head or the heart with no other living casualties, i.e. all the work of snipers. Now why any president be that harsh and inhuman would put snipers in side streets shooting randomly at people? Ask yourselfs what he would gain?
In this 2008 murder, it can't be more obvious than that. You put a sniper using a high preision gun that can take the same bullet that police uses then you give him a bullet by the policemans' weapon - most easy thing to do in the police station!), you mark it with cement to make it a ricochet and you tell your sniper to wait at a cross-road 1-2 roads close to the main demonstration. There you send your agent (a policeman, but also an agent), Vassilis Saraliotis, taking with him a naif policeman, Epameinondas Korkoneas while on the other hand some (obviously adult) anarchist of yours will lead a group of younger ones to the point. The group attacks the 2 policemen, the one tells the other shoot in the air, the naif does it and at the same time the sniper shoots the first target he finds. There you have it.
Make a funny excercise, type the names and see the faces. Epameinondas Korkoneas, your typical victim. Vasilis Saraliotis, a suspicious face. Alexis Grigoropoulos, a random kid, perfect victim. Witnesses, you will find with difficulty names, I cannot find easily through google.
If you think that this is far too imaginative and difficult to arrange try to play with what happened outside Miraflores in Venezuela where a US journalist claimed to had seen the video of failed US-backed dictators claiming 9 people to have been shot but Chavistas one month before the demonstrations where... 9 people had been shot.
This event made me last year seek older events like the Polytechnic event of 1973 - the mother of all such anarcho-leftish events. Around 15 people killed in the demonstrations albeit no murder occured in Polytechnic school (as claimed) and funnily no murder happened in the main demonstrations. All murders happened in side-streets and some in completely irrelevant places including a poor guy who was murdered on the top of his block of flats (guess what he had seen and you understand why he was shot!!!). All the murders hit with 100% success, no injured or such. And why would the dictator put snipers to kill randomly people? Well this dictator (Papadopoulos) has lost US-support and US wanted to put another dictator (Ioannidis). Funnily, not any exception to the rule, the leaders of the polytechnic event were rich peoples' kids and even kids of military people like the likes of Maria Damanaki daughter of an admiral if I am not mistaken (a military anarchist... yeah nice!).
PS: Some of my info (like the Greek police knowing the 17N terrorists sine 1979 but receiving "orders from above") is taken by sensitive sources I will not disclose here. Some of my info (like the 17N being a US-paid organisation) is self evident and known to the majority of Greeks apart some forgotten left-wing and right-wing fossils. Other info (like the description of the murder is only based in news reports and personal logical judgement).
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Your last two paragraphs absolutely sum up the dilemma for the Eurozone nations and Germany, in particular.
Germany does quite well out of being in the Eurozone and using the EU free trade area to maximum advantage to Germany. However, if the ECB becomes de facto controller of all economies within the Eurozone, Germany knows full well that the ECB would have to micro-manage the Eurozone to help the poor economies improve which would be entirely to the detriment of Germany.
Worse still for Germany, centralised control of the Eurozone economy would hand the advantage to the EU nations that do not use the Euro who can revalue/devalue and compete with Germany who would remain the main manufacturing nation but not able to control its export/import prices as those prices would be determined by centralised committee. To set raw material prices and control inflation at German levels would be disastrous for the other Eurozone nations so Germany can only suffer if the Eurozone is centrally controlled.
In the simplest terms, the Eurozone was created too soon and before there had been finacial convergence between the various economies that now contribute to the strengths and weaknesses of the Euro. Everyone dreamed of haveing an economy like Germany's economy but that was a pipedream of the Brussels financial gnomes who wanted the Euro despite the obvious weakness of some of the participating nations who bought the dream but never had the wherewithall to play catch-up with Germany.
I guess it all comes down to how much Germany wishes to be the philanthropist nation and give away control of its own future prosperity. If they are willing to sacrifice their dominant economy for the benefit of the whole then no problem save that socialism inevitably breeds inefficiency at the expense of of socialist conformity and inefficiency absolutely destroys economic wealth both at individual and national level.
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So, why do I state all these? First, just for fun. Then just to tear up some peoples' innocence.
Start thinking:
0) American geopolitics
1) Russians gepolitics
2) Gaz
3) Greece (EU), signed for gaz (big event)
4) Bulgaria (EU), signed for gaz (big event)
5) Among other trouble, murder in Athens (event taking moderate scale->7)
6) Among other trouble, murder in Sofia (event taking massive scale->8)
7) Elections in Bulgaria 2009 (programmed event)
8) Sudden elections in Greece too in 2009 (big event)
9) Bulgarian populist party, pro-US, delays the deal with Russians
10)Greek socialist party, pro-US, delays the deal with Russians
Eh... I won't say more... start making your own links... The current crisis in Greece should had happened many years back OR... never. Why now? And who started it?
PS: To Vassilis - do not worry I am no ND/LAOS supporter either... and I do consider the previous government failed. I will remain perfectly neutral.
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Pre-moderated posts are currently taking about an hour to clear. What is going on, this is worse than ever!!
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Let's calm down a bit, shall we? All the guns are out against the Euro and that after Gavin Hewitt has summarised things so well.
Now I am not terribly good on history, but I do remember Bretton Woods, how many countries were there tied together with their currencies? Not much speculation going on then, was there? Over time things were still organised if somewhat more liberally. The "now world" of computer games has added a completely new dimension to currency stability, put out some rumor in some corner of the world and money is made on a change of a few tics on way or the other. How does a small currency country defend itself against those "slings and arrows"? Now you professional "princes of Denmark", you spreaders of doubt and muck, you want to make a few bucks? Well go and do some real work, I am told the Chinese are having a few vacancies in their factories.
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From the purely selfish perspective, provided Gordon Brown manages to grow a pair (or borrow Ed) and refuses to let UK money be part of the bail-out, I'm happy to sit back and watch the Euro attempt to bring down those countries that thought monetary union was a good thing.
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Giant hedge funds are playing poker with the EU economy. The euro will likely drop further. Indeed, some hedge funds have launched gambling bets against the euro; this is so reminiscent of the trading that went on during the height of the American financial crisis.
The gamblers play at exclusive gatherings; the players are hedge-fund mostly American titans like SAC Capital Advisors LP and Soros Fund Management LLC. George Soros (Soros Fund Management LLC, founded by George Soros, is a privately held corporation providing financial services and investment strategies for various funds including some controversial hedge funds such as the Quantum Group of Funds.). Soros cautioned that if the EU doesn't fix its finances, "the euro may fall apart." God, he must have been laughing up his sleeve, since he is doing so much to UNfix them!
The euro - traded at $1.51 in December - now trades around $1.35. With traders using leverage (often borrowing 20 times the size of their bet, accentuating gains and losses) a euro move to $1 could represent a career-making trade. If investors put up $5 million to make a $100 million trade, a 5% price move in the right direction doubles their initial investment. What fun!
"This is an opportunity...to make a lot of money," says Hans Hufschmid, a former senior Salomon Brothers executive who now runs GlobeOp Financial Services SA, a hedge-fund administrator in London and New York.
It is impossible to calculate the precise effect of the elite traders' bearish bets, but they have added to the selling pressure on the currency, and thus to the pressure on the European Union to stem the Greek debt crisis.
There is nothing illegal about hedge funds jumping all over trades; there is hardly anything illegal in American banking DIS-REGULATION unless it is deemed by regulators to be collusion. Regulators haven't suggested that any trading has been improper. Of course NOT, American regulators don't look for colusion; they look for profit.
Hedge funds feed off each other like piranhas; then, big hedge-fund managers, such as Greenlight Capital Inc. President David Einhorn, hedge companies like Lehman Brothers Holdings and other firms, bet heavily against their securities, and by Jove, accelerate their decline.
Few traders expect the value of the euro will totally collapse, the way the British pound did in 1992 amid a large bet by the gambler, Mr. Soros. In that famous trade — which traders say led to a $1 billion profit—selling; Mr. Soros pushed the pound's value so low that Britain was forced to withdraw its currency from the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, causing the pound to drop like a stone. There were allegations that individuals affiliated with Soros gathered confidential information in an unethical and illegal manner about the Bundesbank's policy toward the British pound.
Again, derivatives, known as credit default swaps, are playing a part in the this world-wide gambling. Some of the largest hedge funds, including Paulson & Co., which manages $32 billion, have bought default swaps, traders say, which act as insurance against a default by Greece on its sovereign debt. Traders view higher swaps prices as warning signs of this potential default.
Has it occurred to anyone that the Americans – with their unregulated derivatives and default swaps have found the perfect way to destabilize the entire EU currency and therefore then union itself?
Journal Community: “These hedge funds are the financial hit-men of our economy. However, they expose themselves and everyone else to incredible risks. These are not good risks. ”
In a separate move last week, traders from Goldman, Bank of America Corp's Merrill Lynch unit, and Barclays Bank PLC were helping investors place a particularly heavy bet on the euro. The trade involved an inexpensive "put" option that will provide the buyer with a HUGE payoff if the euro falls to the level of a single US dollar within the next year. Known as a "tail-risk" trade because its probability is low, the euro-dollar parity "put" is a cheap way of ensuring that if the euro sinks dramatically within a year, an investor will generate HUMUNGOUS returns. A going price for the bet is around 7% of the amount that a parity-trade would pay off. So, for an investor seeking a $1 million bet, the cost is $70,000. This means that the market currently assigns roughly 14-to-1 odds. In November, the odds were around 33-to-1. So, someone must think the Euro bet is getting more and more promising.
The match in play is this:
EU VS USA.
The EU must realize the game and find a way to exclude the hedging, gambling cheating American hedge funds (hit-men).
The EU must find an individual way to keep each EU country afloat.
If Germany's big banks step in, where will it end? It will end when the EU gets the American financial derivatives off their balance sheets and finds a way to stop hedge fund hitman from hitting their finances. Surely to God, you can see what the Americans are doing.
Angela Merkel, for whom I have great respect, is wrong. "It would be wrong," she said, "to have a coordinated economic policy for the Eurogroup while the others can do what they want, because we are of course closely linked to our other neighbours through trade".
Good golly, Merkel, see the light, will you? See what the Americans are doing and that Germany and all other EU countries must throw themselves whole heartedly into the fray: Isolate the Americans. Do not gamble with them.
The match is on, and Germany is supposed to be playing on the EU side.
Talking (in a different debate) about the European way of life, does this include joining hedging teams that cheat, bite, kick, scratch and just plain play dirty. Is winning everything?
I say again; GO EU GO! Beat the American gambling team.
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I've been following these discussions and the european press in general and I'd like to make a few comments.
The problem with Greece is the current polical and economic environment which suits many people - from (some) workers to CEO's - who are naturally very resistant to change. I would even dare to say that BOTH corporate interests and unions have their share of blame.
On one side we have the big local and foreign corporations (including but not limited to banks) who have been successfully corrupting politicians for years. On the other side we have the unions, especially the public sector's union, that demand ridiculously high salaries and benefits for essentially zero productivity.
The final enablers of course have been the governments, both progressive and conservative, who try to please both sides simultaneously: paying the corporations for bailouts and overpriced and underdelivered projects as well as keeping tax rates low and loopholes open for the so called "golden boys" - and at the same time giving generous salary raises and benefits to public sector workers.
I actually believe that this crisis will benefit Greece in the middle-to-long term. This current status is unsustainable, immoral and unfair to honest, hardworking Greeks. The current pressure we're getting from our northern partners might be enough to break this vicious cycle and get back to basics.
Also, to those of you who like to blame the Greek people for this situation, just look at the Greek immigrants working in your respective countries. Do they seem lazy? From my experience (which of course could be biased) after living in the US for five years and visiting Greek friends in Germany and the UK, I could say that Greeks working abroad are generally harder-working and more successful than their hosts.
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Hmm... Mr Hewit I see someone has passed a lot of time screening the last messages. Mr. IronFranco's message that prompted my long 3-message reply is being screened too while I have never stated any "breaking of rules". My messages used this as a starting point to discuss 2 parallel weird events that occured in the two countries Bulgaria and Greece whose fates seem to walk currently a parallel path - I might overdid it taking a lot of space and frightening a lot of people - well if these threads are red by BBC journalists I am sure they know very well what I talk about (I am neither a journalist, nor a politician, nor any spy - I just have as a hobby geopolitics and have an enlarged understanding of how things move around).
People like over-concetrating too much on the financial side of the story. While that is 100% ok with me, it is simply that: a side of the story NOT the whole story. The aim is to make people try and see behind the scenes and this is 110% possible by simply taking the details of the events and start linking them in a rational manner.
People must keep always in mind 1 thing: if something happened concerning politics and/or economy it has NEVER happened for the reasons given. If they tell you the truth then you know where to look. The objective of politics is not to look, it is only to follow.
Back to our issue, here some people try to persuade others and among them themselves too that the whole crisis in Greece is simply the result of corrupted inner governance and a tedency of Greeks to steal and not work combined with the deficiencies of EU and the common eurozone. From there one everyone will use that part of the story to attack what he wants to attack: Some want to simply attack Greece, others the EU, others Europe in general.
What I suggest is that this is just a small part of the story, the big story is the continuing power games between US and Russia in the shadow of China and India. As simple as that. Baltics, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Georgia, Iraq, Afganistan have one thing in common... they are "around". Everything is connected.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Returning to the national currencies is a waste of taxpayers' money.
Before the Euro, the German Mark was the most important unofficial currency in the Southern European countries. There was obviously a need for a stable currency. The only reason they needed their own currency was that they could devaluate it at will. The only reason to do that is to cover up bad government and economical practices. When entering the Euro they lost the freedom to devaluate at will, so they had to fix government and economy. Obviously, there wasn't enough progress made in the last decennium; this currency crisis helps setting priorities.
The pre-Euro Northern European currencies were generally stable and tied to the German Mark - the Euro did not change much overthere.
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Different views, different angles, all respected and justified in their own perspectives.
Let me offer you a different angle, not mine, as i am well confused as all of us.
It's a lucid and well written piece on the debt situation in Greece and the United States. In this email, an anonymous "Greek" citizen opines upon the wayward state of financial affairs in Greece.
Please read. Comments are welcome.
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/02/greece_our_debt.html
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Mr. Hewitt, when will you devote an article to the UK, which is in an even worse position than Greece and how is the pound doing? Greece will be OK in the end, with some help from other EU countries, but not too much, because the Euro is still far too strong to be good for the Eurozone. It still will have to drop more than 30% before it reaches it's launch parity with the dollar. The current (to some extent artificial) strenght of the Euro hurts the competitiveness of the Eurozone countries. So the Greece situation may be a blessing for the Euro as it will help the Euro bring back to a more realistic and better valuation. But I'm still puzzled as why you focus all your attention on this one issue, while the issue the UK is facing is much bigger.
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Bluesberry @ 41 has spelled it out in detail. The threat to our Democracies comes from a Democracy, at least we think of New York as such. Now it occurs to me that there is a place not exactly known as a Democracy, namely China and a very powerful China at that. Now China lives of stablity. Our all stability, US,EU and the rest. The Chinese economy depends on us, on our continued ability, our steadiness to buy their goods. Do you really believe that they will sit on the sidelines and watch? I,for one, can't believe that they would be as "patient" as that.
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41. At 2:46pm on 01 Mar 2010, BluesBerry wrote:
Is there actual concrete evidence this took place? If so, then we need to examine targetted sanctions against the US to discourage this form of idiocy.
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Gavin, you talk about "bail-out". Greece needs to finance its mountainous debts - but is that a bail-out? Every country (but every) has to finance its debts on the markets of the world. Greece's problem (and the EU's by extension) is the high interest rate demanded for their loans.
There is another EU idea circulating, which is that the EU (perhaps via the ECB) should formally underwrite (ie guarantee) future Greek bond issues. The intention would be that this would both assure lenders (and bring down their demanded interest rates) to Greece, and would provide a pro-forma response to other expected attacks on weak Euro countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc). My own preference would be for Euro-bonds (underwritten by the ECB) but their appear to be few takers for this idea.
But is the UK safe from predators? If the EU can successfully head off the wolves snapping at the heels of Greece (then others), who will be next in line? The market wolves have the scent of blood - and they won't stop until they've fed.
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Re, "Can EUro-zone fix Greece?"
Hang on, it'll come to me in a minute... I just know the answers there on the tip of my tongue..
Aaaaah!
'NO!'
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So many people talk like hedge funds are some sinister government plot by the US to kill the Euro. Keep in mind, the Euro is generally great for the US as our companies don't need to do 5000 different currency swaps to pay European workers or to sell in Europe. Hedge funds are people, both in the EU and US, and to a lesser extent Asia too, who are betting against the Euro... meaning they believe Greece will default. You don't see them betting against stable countries do you? If they have so much power then they could. Wouldn't it be a great government plot by the US to bet against France for instance? That would be so much fun. Sheesh. Stop blaming others and take responsibility for your own actions. Bail out Greece with tough IMF like conditions that will make Spain and Italy think twice about going the same path. If Greece doesn't agree, then they are free to leave the Euro. Keep in mind, the Euro strength is centered in about 4 countries. Kick Greece out and it's not like the Euro becomes less strong.
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theoryvspractice, good article, the link you've given.
Reminds me of an old joke; husband doesn't sleep and when wife asks him what's the matter he says he is worried that can not return a debt to the neighbour.
So his wife says "No problem, wait a sec. Knocks the wall with a ? eh broom, until the neighbout behind the wall wakes up, and shouts him - my husband wants to tell you that he'll never return you the debt, he doesn't have money.!"
Then turns to her husband and says "Now you can sleep - he will worry instead."
:o))))
Similar idea - "let German and French baby-boomers worry ab their pensions".
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Back to finance:
Re mes43: How eloquently expressed and thanx for the link! An excellent article describing more or less the full story line of the last 30 years and Greece's march in EU-land.
Copy-search on the article from this point and down to the end:
Sleepy fund managers and insurers in the north of Europe decided that they did not want currency risk and they did not much fancy credit risk
And you will understand why the bulk of the Greek people simply find any "urgent measures" unacceptable when all it sufficed is to gather simply the full taxes and tidy up the state to come back to a manageable state - and from there on improve things.
I have only 2 things to add there:
1) it is not exactly the farmers but simply "a lot of farmers" (cos that depends per culture) that benefited from the loans. Farmers would had been subsidised and protected by the Greek state in any way (I remember back in the 70s and 80s bananas being amost forbidden in Greece!).
2) the "sharks" that ate the money thrown by "EU sea-world trainers" (!) just like real sharks come in various sizes big and small. Big sharks attack large animals like seals and/or large sardine packs. Small sharks simply attack stray little fish. Accodingly in the Greek population you had the 30% exploiting the situation at the expense of the 70%. In the 30% you might find the famous 20 families that run the country but you can also find from the typical farmer who never set his foot in his fields but receives thick packets to improve his business but will do nothing other than play with it, to the tax collector who blackmails businessmen, to the civil service official who will delay your signature for your new house 6 more months unless you give him more or less 1 month's wage (and you will do cos what is 1000 euros inside the 150,000 that your small house may cost? - if you are planning to built a 450,000 house then you will pay more than 2,000 euros). How do you think the country ended up being per population the biggest buyer of Porche Cayenne in the world?
And the ones who come to pay the price similarly come from all walks of life. From the once heathy and happy middle class hose position is now massively forced down to the limit of proper poverty to the small business owner, even to the big-name industrialist (but not part of the good-old-20 families) who tries to do his job as he should (i.e. producing the best possible quality to the best possible price offering the best possible wages to his employees) but can't.
And right now the issue is this: it is the second team that is asked to pay the happiness of the first team. Simply unacceptable. All it takes is bigger prisons with special financial crime sections built during a period of freezing/screening of all accounts to Switzerland or Cayman islands (i.e. a civil servant working at the "building permits" section moving personally 500,000 euros in Switzerland should be gghhhmmmm suspicious)... and the issue is solved.
Alternatively I told you: there is always the oil in the Aegean but does Germany and France have what it takes to drill it?
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Nik, cool down a bit :o))))
You overestimate Russian ability to fight Turkey on your behalf. I mean, by conventional army means :o)))) But you don't start a hot nuclear oven right here I mean (it feels for us "here"), do you?
So "un-conventioanal", nuclear means are kind of out of the question, in sorting disagreements over this and that in Europe.
Turkey is a big energetic place, clearly wanting something, either East or West :o) I am not sure they have their plans finalised themselves :o)))
I don't think they want more of Greece, rather - to hold what they've got already, your inability to use the islands and 1/2 Cyprus. You are in the EU and this protects you from further grabs by itself, I think, the very idea. Even that it doesn't in practical terms whatsoever, Turkey will still think 10 times, before they stretch a hand towards you
for further grabs.
Neither I think it is very clever idea of yours :o)))) to set Russia at Turkey over the oil in Aegean :o)))) There are heaps of oil any place in Russia just dig a hole in the North, which doesn't require a war in Europe :o)))) to get to. What do you take us to be, another USA, anyway - to travel after oil hell knows where :o)))) - even if it were the last oil available around we won't start a war to get to it.
Lavrov, I'm afraid, will disagree with this plan :o))))
Something more clever has to be figured out than a banal Russia-Turkey head clash :o)))) and over what? oil in Aegean?
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This is getting boring.
I can't wait for Greece to go down the pan so we can start dismantling the rest of the PIIGS. (or would that be taking the PIIS?)
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3. At 10:38am on 01 Mar 2010, euormartin wrote:
"The daily details of a crisis can sometimes cover the view of the bigger picture. Has europe come all this way just to flounder on a banking issue. I think the landscape will soon show a move towards more central economic and political control. After all isn't that the mission of the Euro project."
EUpris: The "EU" is still not Europe. "europe" i.e. the "EU" has come this far against the wishes of the British people. It has come this far by lies, manipulation, bullying and the giving of overpaid jobs to Quislings. The latter behaviour is practically bribery even if the "law" does not see it like that. I presume that there have been bribes which even the "law" would recognize as such even though I cannot prove it.
"I think the landscape will soon show a move towards more central economic and political control."
EUpris: I have been sick of this sort of thing for years. There was a time when I was in a minrity. I believe I am now part of a majority, at least in the UK.
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@MaxSceptic
I think that even if Greece wanted to default they wouldn't allow it. The empire... Anyway, package of austerity measures to come shortly. Let's see if this will have any effect on spreads.
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'Jacques Attali, the founding President of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD), is the latest voice to call for one European economic policy. "So even if public opinion is for the moment against a single tax and fiscal policy for all of Europe," he said,"Europeans will have to go along at some point. Without it, the euro will not survive". He does not indicate how public opinion will be persuaded or whether such a fundamental change to the sovereignty of the eurozone states should be put to the voters.'
EUpris: More sickening anti-democratic centralisation. All this rubbish is a reason to get yourself and your money out of the "EU".
Will they put ot to the voters?? Come off it!! NO!
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Angela Merkel ... . "It would be wrong," she said, "to have a coordinated economic policy for the Eurogroup while the others can do what they want, because we are of course closely linked to our other neighbours through trade".
EUpris: We can and should trade without Bossy Boots Merkal telling us what to do in our own country. It is all an excuse.
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@56 MaxSceptic
That says a lot about yourself.
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@57 EUprisoner
I really feel for you. Cameron didn't even dare to make the EU relationship one of his election topics. I was sincerely hoping that he would have the guts to promise a referendum on EU membership, so that there would come an end to your misery
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# 18. At 11:47am on 01 Mar 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
" ... The Euro down to pure financial facts it is still a far better currency to have that the USD, GRB or the host of 16 other currencies it replaced."
EUpris: It isn't better than the Deutschmark.
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29. At 1:19pm on 01 Mar 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
"Mr. Hewitt;
When you are finished with the Greek crisis I have a suggestion for you: Take a good look at what is going on in Lady Ashton's office. It will also bring you back to the UK."
EUpris: Guardian writes: "Berlin fights UK 'plot' to grab power in Brussels." I would rather it hit the fan there than in Greece. I don't want ordinary Greeks suffering.
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45. At 4:17pm on 01 Mar 2010, JohaMe wrote:
"Returning to the national currencies is a waste of taxpayers' money. "
EUpris: Not as much as the "EU"-Dictatorship!
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I don't really understand all this fuss.The euro was launched at an exchange rate approx equivalent to the dollar.For thoose with short memories it fell to 80cts shortly after its launch. It has peaked at $1.60 and is still close to 30% overvalued where it should be against sterling 90p vs 70p.This has made the euro over valued during a crisis where other major currencies outside Asia have encouraged their currencies too fall.The result is if Euro zone countries don't have cast iron value added goods too sell but instead rely on tourism and global goods they are no longer competitive. The euro can drop 20% and we can get back too exchange status quo.
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Just something to think about,
The USA has a large deficit of about 10 % (?) of its yearly GDP. The UK also is in a deficit (yes?). So, instead of "gloating about Greece" (an "Anglo-Saxon" stereotype as seen in some nice EU nations),
we should be more worried sbout following the "Greece example" and we should be tightening our OWN belts.
SAD TO THINK
that the "Tea baggers" in the USA were partly right about the US' money woes/$1.5 Trillion deficit--and yes, thank you, China for OUR earlier bailout. I'm a Democrat who voted for Obama whom I hope will still be around after 2012 (reelected).
So, please beware UK and USA (Canada, Australia and New zealand are doing fine, I think--other "Anglo-Saxon" nations). Our "Anglo-Saxon" finances are not exactly great these days.
So, this EU/Euro situation is very scary to us (well.. anyone who reads.. here in the USA)
PLEASE sort it out,soon,
so, Europe can become a superpower ...with bigger muscles. I, myself, was counting on it to provide friendship to the USA, so the USA won't be stuck with big "stable" China as our ..best big economic friend.
Europeans, IMHO, should bailout Greece, YES, with taxpayer money. Where else will this bailout come from?
And
Beware of American banks and/or the IMF "bearing gifts."
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@ 24 vassilis , you are right about that , but then Greece`s standard of living all these years would have been no better than Bulgarian ... EU kept feeding massively wounded animal who was losing too much blood...and Greek drachma exchange rate would have been 1euro = 1000 Gd ,Greeks had more than enough time to adjust them self's but they failed ...and EU has failed as well by being blind for not seeing the elephant in the room .
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62. At 9:37pm on 01 Mar 2010, ignace wrote:
"@57 EUprisoner
I really feel for you. Cameron didn't even dare to make the EU relationship one of his election topics. I was sincerely hoping that he would have the guts to promise a referendum on EU membership, so that there would come an end to your misery "
EUpris: Thank you! It is a matter I was thinking of raising, but I haven't had the time. Please would you campaign in your country for the UK to be thrown out of the "EU"? I want friendly relations with "EU"-countries from outside the "EU".
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@66 colin
well said! Indeed, a fuzz for nothing. A drop of the Euro by 20% would be a blessing for the Eurozone, and the Euro then still would be stronger than it's initial launch position. But it's a good illustration that just anything can be made a big news story.
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67. At 10:14pm on 01 Mar 2010, David wrote:
Just something to think about,
Indeed. Concerned UK readers should probably flip over to Stephanie Flanders Blog.
Also detractors who currently pillory Greece over it's current difficulties should note carefully the improvement in it's finances over January, which should also be maintained in February.
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There's an easier way to help Greece than appealing to the taxpayers: the EU could accept the fact that the greek-turkish sea and air border is in fact european-turkish border. In that way Athens could cut down military spending that adds to the deficit. And we are talking about billions of euros on (french/german) arms. Quite ironic, isn't it? Those who are asking Greece to do something about its deficit are the same people who later on gain billions of euros on military expenditure.
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@67 david
you are right, the total debt / GDP ratio for Greece is only half of the UK's, that's why I don't understand why the Greek situation is so overblown.
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To all those British gloaters, it seems as if the British Pound is in trouble of its own, as it seems today
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EU will not break up. Such a situation will lead eventually to further integration and the rich countries will take this opportunity to argue that they know better how to do "things". The final results a centralized EU with all the nets drawn in Germany and France. UK will have two option: take Euro and join Germany and France in decision making or leave EU.
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It is almost ludicrous reading all these comments, from people that have absolutely no idea of the internal structure of Greece. Greece is undoubtedly providing services to Europe that no other country within the EU can. For example, it has the most powerful naval industry and thus plays a significant role for merchants and goods that enter the EU market through Greece. I am sure that those type of services are well considered from Europeans and all these agreements are most certainly agreed under the Euro currency "umbrella" agreement.
The conception of Greek economy been extricated by any bail out plan is practically inaccurate, as it would probably act as a "painkiller" and not a long term solution as stated in another comment.
I personally trust president George Papandreou and he seems willing to end the devastating policy that lead Greece, been the scapegoat for aspiring Eurosceptics and an opportunity for them to extinguish any hope for other nations having a stronger economy.
I bet that most people don't even realise that most countries in Europe owe money and loans to the IMF and various organisations. The whole world actually lives in a growing debt that will never stop growing and generations will owe public debt to each other, as long the whole world relies on the monetary system which in our generation has become completely digitised.
There is absolutely no way that Greece will ever "revert" to drachma. This option seems more like an absurd reality at the moment and it would need at least a 5 year plan to implement and apply.
I want to believe that this is a wake up call for all Greeks.
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"@' Who still thinks joining the Euro is a good idea? 'Everyone who lives in the real world and works and trades with our neighbours, that who." (ChrisArta, 33)
Everyone who lives in the real world knows that for centuries we (Britain) have successfully worked and traded with many nations - neighbours and otherwise - without sharing a currency with those nations.
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Dear all,
Thanks to Greece pushing down the EURO, export is on the rise in the Netherlands (were I am from). Thanks Greece! :)
Maybe that is why the Germans like to prolong the saga a bit.
Personally, I think the embankment will turn the ship and those betting against the Euro will be squeesed inbetween and loose some serious money. The Economy in northwestern europe is way too strong and way too well managed to have such a low exchange rate. Airplanes, BMW, Mercedes, foodstufs, machinery all just became 15% cheaper. And remember Greece is just under 3% of the Euro zone. But thanks again for talking down the Euro, it helps us to employ people (unemployment is at 4% nowadays, up from 2.8%). Kind regard, from the Netherlands,
Johan
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These speculators have to decide soon. I don't know in what language (also British or American English?) shall I write my CV. They make it very difficult for me...
Did you think of the possibility that bankers might want to bankrupt everybody so that they rule the world? It crossed my mind on my last gulp of my last bottle of ouzo (I cherise these moments it might be too expensive to afford soon; this might be good for me. I'll be drnking apple juice instead).
Greek news said that after Euro it will be the turn of the Sterling. If Greek situation improves by then, eurozone might be sympathetic, London is the home of Greek Tycoons (non-dom of course).
EU prisoner,
I am very sympathetic to your plight. And it seems that Gordon is doing better! Pity it would be interesting to have Cameron in London and Salmon in Edinburgh and a referendum in between. BTW what's the opinion of the English tax payer of the Barnett formula and the West Lothian Question?
Could you also campaign in your country for Greece to be thrown out of the "EU", it might be much easier for you on current circumstances!
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@Philip
'but then Greece`s standard of living all these years would have been no better than Bulgarian'
My friend, we have a nice opportunity to accomplish this now... Let's see who is going to buy the BMWs from now on...
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Countries like Chile, China and Brazil can handle their finances like adults; there's no excuse for recipients of EU subsidies such as Greece and Italy. The EU should offer the following ultimatum: bail out Greece and have them surrender control of their finances to the countries footing the bill, which would then brutally balance the books with massive spending cuts and tax increases, or abandon Greece to the tender mercies of the IMF, with the proviso that a default would mean expulsion from the EU and the EEA. A weaker euro would actually benefit eurozone exporters such as Germany. Germany can afford to bail out Greece, but surely not also Italy, Spain, etc. Any bailout of those who borrow irresponsibly, whether banks or governments, must be done on terms so painful that they will get their act together rather than go through it again - that's how Brazil went from being a basket case to being a creditor nation.
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To: Marshwiggle2 post#6, Dave H post#40 and other posters
From: viewcode
Re: Euro vs. Pound
OK, let's look at the numbers...
On 1 Jan 2003:
* 1 dollar would buy 0.090607 grams of gold
* 1 euro would buy 0.095019 grams of gold
* 1 pound would buy 0.146071 grams of gold
On 1 Jan 2007:
* 1 dollar would buy 0.049038 grams of gold
* 1 euro would buy 0.064584 grams of gold
* 1 pound would buy 0.096178 grams of gold
On 1 March 2010:
* 1 dollar would buy 0.027857 grams of gold (56.8% of its 1 Jan 2007 value, 30.7% of its 1 Jan 2003 value)
* 1 euro would buy 0.037677 grams of gold (58.3% of its 1 Jan 2007 value, 39.7% of its 1 Jan 2003 value)
* 1 pound would buy 0.041554 grams of gold (43.2% of its 1 Jan 2007 value, 28.4% of its 1 Jan 2003 value)
(source: fxtop.com)
Or to put it another way:
* The euro has done badly over the last seven years and over the last three years
* The dollar has done really badly over the same periods
* The pound has done really, really badly over the same periods
Or to put it another way:
Despite demonstrations in Greece, savage cuts in Ireland, a flatlining German economy, doubts in Portugal, and the continual knowable-only-unto-God economy of Italy...the euro is *still* doing *way* better than the pound...:-(
Regards, viewcode
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To: MaxSceptic, post#56.
From: viewcode.
Re: the ethics of wishing harm on countries who have never done any harm to you.
MaxSceptic. Regarding your remark that "I can't wait for Greece to go down the pan so we can start dismantling the rest of the PIIGS". Read and inwardly digest the following.
1) Of the PIIGS countries which you dismiss so easily: Portugal is England's longest standing ally (what did they teach you in school?), Greece fought on the UK side in WWI, WW2 and Korea, the UK devastated Ireland in the 19th century yet its citizenry joined the UK armed forces in large numbers during WW2, and all of them are a part of the International Security Assistance Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force) in Afghanistan, even if only nominally.
2) "We" are not dismantling the PIIGS. The markets are dismantling the PIIGS. Those same markets are currently dismantling us, and doing it faster and with more glee.
So you gave offence to countries who have fought in wars alongside us in the past, are fighting in Afghanistan alongside us today, and gave comfort to forces who are currently driving the pound to depths heretofore only plumbed by cowrie shells.
Outstanding error of judgement, dude. Truly, truly outstanding....
Viewcode.
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The ironic thing here
is all these PIIGS nations are places where we tourists would want to tour or where we would want to spend much of our own hard earned money.
Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece would be a Dream vacation for seeing history, beauty, and a beautiful blue sea. If for nothing else, Europe's heritage is in these great nations.
In 1976 and 1982, I was lucky enough to visit Paris and London, respectively. Those two trips are still in my mind as highlights of my (long) 51 year old life.
And when I retire (or sooner), hopefully, with money saved, I'll go to the Mediterranean and enjoy the historic ruins, the art, and the people.
BUT, most of all, I hope to enjoy the European history on display there. I live in the USA and its maybe hard for ANYONE here to imagine (being N. American) walking along in Europe and feeling as if you have gone to a different century(ies).
I think that the Euro is not so much the important thing here.
IMO, if Greece goes down the drain, we ALL go with her.
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@77, CornwallCoastPath wrote:
Everyone who lives in the real world knows that for centuries we (Britain) have successfully worked and traded with many nations - neighbours and otherwise - without sharing a currency with those nations.
True, but it is time we forget the ceturies and think of today and the future. We do most of our trade with the rest of the EU, so it costs us money to trade on a daily basis that we don't need to spend. I know we can keep on trading in whatever currency we like, but it costs us money! Also on a personal level I don't see why I should have to pay a bank money in order to get Euros to use when I visit Northen France or Belgium. I travel to Northen France or Belgium often throughout the year for leisure and I fail to see why I should have to incure additional costs, just to make some bankers happy? No thank you. For business also. A large part of my income is billed in Euros that I need to convert into GBP, last year alone total exchange rate bank charges were over 3000 GBP. Let alone money converting back into Euro, that is money that would have stayed in my pockets.
So, yes we traded and we can keep trading in whatever currency we like, that much of your statement is correct. But at what cost? That part of the statement either on purpose or because you forgot you don't say it. I know that we trade with New Zealand, China, etc. why not use their currency instead? For the reasons we don't live right next to them and for the reason that we like it or not we trade far more with other EU states.
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David
Was there some reason Ireland was excluded when you heaped lavish praise on the PIGS? It is not that much of a hellhole - if you ever did ever set your feet down om that green isle, I can guarantee you, you would never forget the rain........!
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Funny how so many comments make fun of the Euro by "Sterlingites". Well, how is the jolly old British pound doing chaps? Before you throw muck yet again the Euro way, take a look at your own vastly deflated (and with good cause) currency!
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Yesterday German television (ZDF) had an interview with prof. Otmar Issing, a main architect of the Euro, as I have mentioned in earlier contributions.
He said that the Euro is not threatened by the current crisis at all. Instead the structure within the Euro-16 group is. He once again recommended the IMF to take over the “Greek problem” and confirmed that this is a political strategy on his side, which is supposed to remove Berlin / Germany from telling Athens what to do with the deficit.
To this suggestion the journalist countered that Germany’s minister of finance, Wolfgang Schäuble, is against the IMF solution because it will give Washington too much influence on the Euro. Issing did not agree that this would be the consequence, but Schäuble and Merkel make the decisions (and they confer with Paris).
The consequence of this position is therefore that EU will take care of the problem internally, and thus it was indeed no coincidence that Spain’s PM, Zapatero, visited Berlin yesterday.
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I wonder who is going to bail out Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Belgium which have a much greater debt than Spain or Portugal.
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@88 Mathiasen,
Of cause Otmar Issing would say so! What else could one expect him to say? i.e. "Sorry people I messed up with the Euro". Like what kind of an idiot would come with a design that has no crisis management mechanism in place? Only an economist I guess! Crisis management? What for we don't need one of those, we have clear rules every one will follow them! If we don't have a crisis management we save costs!
Why do they bother interviewing economists or even have them in the first place, they are a waste of space, turn them into accountants of something else useful like supermarket check-out employees, but then maybe not probably they would stuff that up also.
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@86 Islandhopper1
....also don't forget that other treasure the strong wind :)))
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Island hopper,
Thanks so much for reminding me that I'm an Irish American (true story......sir)...so generous and thoughtful of you...my eyes are smiling:)
oh yeah, ciao
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#90. At 08:22am on 02 Mar 2010, ChrisArta
Concerning the crisis management mechanism Otmar Issing is not responsible, at least not the main responsible. It has been written into the treaties that a country cannot be expelled. The question to the governments is therefore: What will you do if the behaviour of one country is endangering the rest? Secondly; What will you do if a country is not complying with the Maastricht stability criteria?
Actually, we are getting the answers these days.
As we have lined out more federalism is likely, but as we also know a key opponent in this is the UK. Which brings us back to Otmar Issing and his worries about the structures.
It is in connection with this the growing problems of Lady Ashton should be seen. It can add conflicts in the area foreign policy to economic policy, and therefore we expect more discussions about the state of the union. Interesting times!
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@Johan_Heuvel
'Thanks to Greece pushing down the EURO, export is on the rise in the Netherlands (were I am from). Thanks Greece! :)'
Very pleased to be of help to the Netherlands. We hope that your finance minister will take this into account when *he* along with other countries (but not Greece) decides our economic policy, salaries etc. from 16th March.
'Maybe that is why the Germans like to prolong the saga a bit.'
Well, I would have been accused of being cynical if I said this. ;-)
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To all the critic of my comment @56: I guess my sense of humour is lost on you (or maybe it is a bit warped).
In all honesty, I like the countries, cultures and peoples of the PIIGS (and the rest of the EU member states, too), but that doesn't mean that I cannot tease you all a little.
As a student of history I appreciate all the mutual ties and obligations, and, as a keen traveller, I enjoy all the wonderful things that these countries have to offer.
The fact that their governments (under the guiding 'principles' of the EU) are usually incompetent and/or corrupt and that their societal norms with regard to petit corruption and civic responsibility differ from those of Britain is, I guess, the 'spice of life'.
All Britain's critics are, however, correct to point out our flaws. Our Labour government - especially under the 'leadership' of Brown - has adopted the worst aspects of the continental style of government giving us a toxic blend of incompetence, arrogance, stupidity, waste and the growth of institutional corruption.
At least we can vote the 'illegitimates' out.
How do you vote out your EU Masters?
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@vassilis, 94
Due to lack of a cabinet, The Netherlands currently do not have a proper finance minster and probably won't have one until probably somewhere early September. No "controversial" issues may be decided upon and anything may be declared "controversial". Parliament elections will be early June; a more isolationist majority is likely.
In other words: do not expect too much from that country.
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#ViewCode
"Despite demonstrations in Greece, savage cuts in Ireland, a flatlining German economy, doubts in Portugal, and the continual knowable-only-unto-God economy of Italy...the euro is *still* doing *way* better than the pound...:-("
I notice you miss out the reason for those figures (2003 to 2010). All the above have one massive advantage. They did not have Gordon Broon and his special accounting to contend with. When he is humiliated later in the year, Britain will rise again.
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95. At 09:52am on 02 Mar 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
What a lot of sanctimonious piffle!
You honestly believe, and expect others to believe, that in the UK "The Establishment" can be voted out if the electorate dislikes Government policy?
I recommend you watch and ruminate on the excellent "A Very British Coup" starring the late great Ray McAnally, or any number of such films, and then get back to me.
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I read in the financial press over the weekend that the Euro is expected to fall to 1.28 dollars (from the current 1.35 ) by the end of the year, which may turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it does, it will probably not be a bad thing for European exports, although it will still be higher than the 1.25 dollar rate of less than a year ago. In other words, not the complete annihilation that some people are predicting (or perhaps hoping for).
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Go Nigel!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8544904.stm
Don't let them intimidate you.
The POTUS is treated with a certain respect (generally) as he has been voted for by the majority of US citizens. Who voted for Von DampRag?
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"You honestly believe, and expect others to believe, that in the UK "The Establishment" can be voted out if the electorate dislikes Government policy?"
Yes...when the British public wake up and stop voting for the 'usual suspects'
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Mickalus @98
Gosh! I guess TV films and popular entertainment must be an excellent source of unbiased knowledge and profound wisdom.
I assume you also get your scientific expertise about UFOs from The X Files and your environmental facts from The Day After Tomorrow....
I accept that the Establishment is - er - established. But enough people voting against the status quo 3 parties (e.g. Greens, BNP, UKIP, etc) would change the political landscape. Whether the British people wish to do so or not is another matter.
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@82 viewcode
Well said. Ever since the Breton Wood agreements (of 1943) which buried the Gold standard, the price of Gold, as being freely shaped on the open international market, has been the most successful indication about each national currency “health record”.
Generalissimo
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102. At 11:24am on 02 Mar 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
That's actually very very funny.
The Greens have been in power in both Germany and Ireland as coalition partners - the Green's are a Europe wide establishment party with ecological, not revolutionary, manifestos. I don't expect that if the UK electorate swung Green in the forthcoming election that a huge amount would change politically or sociologically.
As for UKIP and BNP - can't and won't speak for them. But, eh, would EU citizens and non-English people not have to be "repatriated" if they were in power. Would that solve or create a greater number of issues I wonder.
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#104 Trying to put the UKIP as being the same bag as the BNP shows only one thing....you are getting desperate in your arguments.
They do share the same distaste for the EU and that is it. UKIP are independently minded people. BNP are National Socialists. If you cannot understand how that makes them worlds apart then may I recommend the Fisher Price Guide to Politics. ^^
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From BBC;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8545054.stm
"Greece's Prime Minister George Papandreou is due to visit German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin on Friday, in what could be a key meeting to decide what, if any, Europe-wide assistance Greece receives.
She said again on Sunday that Greece had to sort out its own problems.
"We have a contract which rules out the possibility of bailing out other nations," said Ms Merkel."
What happened to that plege that was made just a week or so ago when she pledged Greece would not be allowed to default? I guess she read the polls of her own voters and changed her mind. All for one, one for all, and every country for itself? That at the core of it is the European Dis-Union. I can't believe Greece will be allowed to go into default. i don't know if the Euro will collapse suddenly (it might) but there will be far more chaose in Greece. What about the other PIIGS countries. In BBC's interview with a bond expert at PIMCO (Pacific Investment Management Company) who manages a trillion dollars worth of bond assets, he said the UK,s bonds would be in the same situation before long if something doesn't happen.
He said there are three hallmarks of countries whose bonds are in trouble. Large debt, large deficit, lack of growth and responsible management to reduce both. Many developed nations fall in that category. The US is a special case because the US dollar is the foundation currency underpinning all others and its markets are vast and very liquid which means it can get away with a lot more than other countries...but not indefinitely or forever.
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Mickalus @104,
You seem to favour someting 'revolutionary'.
Why do you assume that a 'revolutionary manifesto' won't end up just as racist and bloody as any 'establishment'.
The French Revolution promised Liberté, Egalité and Fraternité. What it delivered was Madame Guillotine and Terror. (The less said of famous 20th Century revolutions, the better).
Howabout a 'Tea Party' approach? (Or is that not revolutionary in a leftist way?)
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WebAlice...
Looks like Medvedev is one of your grumpy bears with not enough sleep ^^
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8543560.stm
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I should like to thank DAVID from across the pond for talking sens to us Europeans. America wants and needs us Europeans united and stand up together. They don't want any poodles lifting their little leg here and there creating a mess. Look at the Tories, look at the company they keep. I am talking about the Czech company they keep in the European Parliament. As jablko (just an ordinary apple in Czech) I am writing from Prague while taking a little breather from chasing those crooks over here. The BBC have a man over here for donks already, he knows the scene very well. I don't want to name him, it is not his fault after all, but the BBC should be more forthright and report fully on this country. People here make great sacrifices trying to establish Democracy in the Czech Republic. For the BBC to keep silent about it is tantamount to harming Democrats in this country.
I recommend to you to read perhaps Marc Ellengogen at [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] He is of course an American that cares and this for many years already.
And one thing more, The Czech Republic would of course be a much bigger mess than it is already without the EU.
If I may just add a word or two to the Greek contributors here. Please tell the people of Kalithea (part of Athens) to be beware of Czechs baring gifts. They have accepted a very large gift from a Prague mayor who is known to be one of the most corrupt in the country. We have been fighting him for years. The Czech media reports on him all the time. Only a few minutes ago a TV reporter called us, the fight continous.
Don't just wish as luck, help where you can.
Thank you all.
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105. At 12:20pm on 02 Mar 2010, Freeman wrote:
#104 Trying to put the UKIP as being the same bag as the BNP shows only one thing....you are getting desperate in your arguments.
They do share the same distaste for the EU and that is it. UKIP are independently minded people.
--------------------------------------
The problem, quite apart from policy, is that Nigel Farage is a very rude man so cannot be taken seriously as anything than a bully. I am also concerned about the initials NF.
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#MA2 "What happened to that plege that was made just a week or so ago when she pledged Greece would not be allowed to default?"
She filed it with the Growth and Stability Pact..under N for "No longer convenient to me". Although I think she has a duplicate under H for Hypocrisy...
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#Kit
"Nigel Farage is a very rude man so cannot be taken seriously as anything than a bully."
He is an angry man and he is not the only one. However with the following I can only I assume you are being facetious...
"I am also concerned about the initials NF."
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Freeman @108
Sure. Whole country has pm/am upside down, watching these Olympics at 11 times' difference, which means all the interesting for 2 weeks starts at 3 am and you "get asleep" at 7, walking with black circles under you eyes stumbling on people the day time - and for what? Nothing to look at, double trouble, disappointment after disappointment.
Mutko is Olympic committee man and the new Russian slogan is "beat Mutko - Save Russia!" :o)))))
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@34 Nik
Nikolay, I shall revert very soon. I appreciate your direct approach to what seems to be similar in the painful situation of both Greece & Bulgaria. The answer needs more time to concentrate.
Generalissimo
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@MarvelousII
"All for one, one for all, and every country for itself? That at the core of it is the European Dis-Union."
Very good slogan:))) you should trademark it before the EU gets if for free:))
We had a different EU slogan up until now something like "united in diversity" but your is much better!
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Kit Green @110 writes:
"Nigel Farage is a very rude man"
I assume you mean 'rude' as in 'truthful'.
Can you, perhaps, quote any of his comments that are other than truthful? I guess that is what makes him such a poor 'politician'.
As for what the EU elites have done to us by imposing their 'European Project' and negating all democratic accountability, well, that could be described with a very popular Anglo-Saxon word that rhymes with luck. I'm sure you wouldn't like this word as, although it is accurate, it would be 'rude'.
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I think that the indescriminate Greek bashing has radicalised the German opinion which makes things more difficult for Merkel and for the Greeks of course. Personally I am absolutely fine to have no help from Merkel and default, go out of the Euro, Europe etc. I don't care any more. The wider problem was hidden from the public. The banks and speculators are up to attack anybody for their profits. It seems that not before long almost everybody or many more will be in the same position more or less. Greece has an advantage, it has very little internal and private debt all debt is external and public. Of course it won't be a stroll in the park but fundamentally (if we are not attacked by anybody) if we are led to default by lack of a loan (i.e. not voluntarily), we wil default with some relief.
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*prods the moderator awake*
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Freeman, here, the explanation why Medvedev is so blood-thirsty.
(that un-official but very official countries' competition score)
Russia/USSR 1956 in Italy - First, 1960 in USA First, 1964 in France Second, 1968 in Austria - First, 1972 in Japan First, 1976 in Austria First, 1980 in USA First, 1984 in Jugoslavia Second, 1988 in Canada First, 1992 France Second, 1994 Norway First,
then it gets interesting
1998 Japan - THIRD
2002 USA - FIFTH
2006 Italy - FOURTH
2010 Canada - ELEVENTH (don't have so capital letters). Just 15 medals of which only 3 are medals.
That's not inflation or some money or some crap. That's serious, in all Russians' opinion. Real values :o))) so to say.
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#93
@ Mathiasen,
Do you know if he works for goldman sachs now? If, he does I guess he has bets left right and center so it is part of his job to create even more discussions :))
Yes, you are saying exactly the same thing, i.e. there is no crisis management mechanism. To me that is a failure in the design of the Euro. As he was one of the architects then by default he is a failure :)
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I think all the talk of the demise of the Euro is a bit far fetched.
As Niall Ferguson commented in late 2008 regarding the predicted demise of of the US dollar, where are people going to go?
It is not as if the Euro is the only sick man in a healthy and vibrant world. Where are people going to go, if they all get out of the Euro? The US dollar? The pound? The Rupee? The Canadian dollar? The Rouble? The Yuan? Gold?
Folks have been buying gold for so long now it has become massively inflated in value. Do investors really want to go there, given that gold doesn't pay interest, whilst bonds do?
I think we all need to take a deep breath and put the "crisis" into perspective. Greece may have a shocking set of public books, but even if it defaults and is kicked out of the Eurozone, the Eurozone is still a massive and highly advanced economic region. There are so many folks invested into the Euro it is hard to see where they could possibly go to, even if they all did want to get out.
For my taste, a good parallel with the greek crisis is the Iraqi crisis. When the US invaded Iraq and changed the regime, it declared that Saddam's debts would not be honoured. So that hit Euro bond holders hard, to the tune of many billions. But then the US gave the European governments a choice: If you give us money for reconstruction, we'll honour the old Euro debts to the Euro bondholders.
In other words, if the Euro governments tax their workers to pay us money, we'll recycle that money directly to the Euro banks. The US effectively gave the Euro governments the option of robbing their workers to reimburse their bankers, via the democratically elected governments. And guess what: They did it! The euro governments took the deal. They paid the US tax revenue so that the private bondholders could be bailed out.
The same deal will be made with greece. One way or another. It doesn't even matter how it is done, there are numerous ways to skin a cat. Especially a working cat. The most important thing is to note the political will, and the political will in Europe has already been established without a shadow of a doubt. The bond holders will be fine.
At the end of the day, the bond holders have invested pension funds belonging to the the largest voting demographic, the baby boomers, and so whatever deal is done, the news will filter down via the fund managers to the accountants to the voting baby bombers. Once again, the losses of the baby boomers will be passed down to their children, and so society in Europe will move inexorably forward towards its predictable fate: Massively high taxation on the younger generation to support the reckless fiscal adventures of their parents.
But that is not "the end of the Euro". It is just the end of a decent quality of life for the younger generation. And that was coming anyway, if it hadn't already arrived.
Once again I would stress that Greece defaulting is not some kind of final nail in the coffin of the bondholders. They can be bailed out in a myriad of ways. The governments of the EU can buy the toxic greek debts from their own bondholders, thus nullifying the argument that their taxpayers are "bailing out" Greeks. They'll be bailing out their own parents pensions and their bankers profits, which is not the same thing at all.
That can be done through toxic asset purchases by governments, or by outright gifts to pension funds by governments.
But nothing extreme is going to happen. The Euro isn't going to "die", and Europe is not going to fall apart.
Massive institutions do not slip quietly into the night. They are either replaced by newer, stronger institutions via war or revolution, or they evolve into even stronger versions of themselves.
The EU isn't going anywhere because there is nothing credible to takes its place.
The only question is whether the people who have invested in greece will lose their money or whether the governments of the EU will find a novel way to step in and correct the market so that those who have invested in greece are protected from the terrors of the market.
I'll bet anyone a Euro that this will happen, because if there is one trend that is starkly clear in the modern world, it is that political parties seek to spend tax payers money in order to protect speculators from loses in the market.
Curiously, those who argue against direct democracy often cite the tyranny of the majority as a danger of the will of the people. And yet, as far as I can see the party system has evolved to promote the absolute tyranny of the majority in western society. Parties have isolated the demographical profiles they need to seek re-election, and they serve these at the expense of the minorities who simply do not matter to them.
I feel this is perhaps the greatest danger of a highly centralized system of government, especially a democratic government: in a highly centralized society the tyranny of the majority becomes institutionalized, and local government loses any power to rectify economic problems.
I suppose we all just have to wait until the baby boomers die before things get better. My word, what a disgrace that generation has proved itself to be. they were unwashed selfish hippies when they were young, and they were greedy and irresponsible in their middle age. Now they are getting old, they have proven themselves to be crooked gamblers who suck the life blood from their own children and grandchildren.
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#WA 119
Ouch...so if this Mutko claims asylum over here in the near future we all know why. ^^
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Greek PM in a dramatic tone said today that we are at a 'war' situation and severe measures will be taken (probably announced tomorrow, on top of measures already taken). I predict a total cut of around 20% or so in salaries (which are quite low already compared to rest of EU despite the borrowing spree*), plus increase in VAT, petrol etc. Combination of cuts in salaries and increases in cost of living will be an explosive mix.
However for the time being I predict a mixed response, of course there will be demonstrations and strikes but I think that the vast majority of people will take it almost patriotically that they have to live with less. There will be discontent for sure many people will have problems finding enough money to live.
*there are exceptions: employees in the economic ministry, judges, tax collectors, civil servants in the parliement and other specific groups have quite high salaries (too high in my opinion).
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Freeman; three of them to be expected on your side shortly :o)
Minister of Sport, youth development and forgot what else
Head of Olympic Committee
Head of Figure-Skating public LOL Association
The trouble with rapid export to Siberia or to London is the head of our Olympic committee is by some twist of fortune :o))) also personal Putin's coach in skiing. Which makes his export somewhat hindered, for years :o)))
But overall you should be full anyway as you are :o) General Prosecutor here voiced ovver some numbers last week, namely that Russia has accummulated 66,000 (sixty-six thousand) travelling wonders around the world, badly wanted at home courts. Well, that is a horrific g=figure but it acccumulated for all the years combined. We want them still, but we are not given them back :o)))
General Prosecutor said it goes slowly, for 2009 Russia asked other countries formally to return please back 500 criminals if they don't mind, like, what for to keep them, be reasonable :o)) and all, and got back only 300. Also, something, of course. But that's how the back-log is being built up.
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110. At 12:51pm on 02 Mar 2010, Kit Green wrote:
" ...
The problem, quite apart from policy, is that Nigel Farage is a very rude man ..."
EUpris: van Rumpoy is a very rude man. His rudeness consists of agreeing to be a servant of a lousy dictatorship. 82% of Brits wanted a referendum. 70% wanted to say NO. We were promised a referendum. We didn't get it.
We in the UK have been abused because we were too polite. It is time to get ruder. We are entitled to be as "rude" as we like to Van Rumpoy.
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@116 "I assume you mean 'rude' as in 'truthful'."
I'd say rude as in rude. Check a dictionary and truthful ain't one of the meanings of rude. This Farage fellow behaved disgracefully and while I sympathize/agree with his dislike of the EU, I can not condone his rude (i.e. insulting or uncivil, discourteous, impolite) behavior.
Farage could have made a much stronger point by sticking to legitimate arguments/concerns that his constituents sent him to brussels to address, rather than embarrass himself and discredit his very useful oppositional role in the EP.
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Viewcode Re #82
If the numbers actually meant statistically what you try to imply then you would have a point: Pound value against Gold is hardly the Fiscal statistical measure of a Nation!
Fact is the UK Economy boomed from the early '90s until the inevitable cyclical recession: That this downturn has been particularly hard on the UK due to its Banks & Investment houses being so open to the US 'sub-prime' defecit is not a reason to suppose the UK Economy is not healthy enough to continue outside the EUro-zone.
The EUro is a decent Currency: It offers no more protection, no additional fiscal strength to the UK and indeed as the present Greek crisis reveals - - the UK has done well to be outside the 16 who really are going to have to foot the bill for Greek largesse - - UK would be in even greater economic difficulty were it 1 of the 16 having to find funds for the bail out as well as its own massive defecit.
ChrisArta Re #85
So, essentially you are arguing that for the sake of ChrisArta saving the odd pound or 3 the entire UK Economy should be tied in with the EU!
Why "..forget the centuries.." (of trade with the World)? That UK now has its largest 'market' with other EU Members is no reason to abandon the independence and entrepreneurial skills of generations: It does not make political-fiscal-economic sense for Britain to have its economy and currency run from Brussels and Frankfurt - - especially now, there is simply no logic at all in such a manoeuvre - - Greece is falling apart & the EUro-zone is under immense pressure to bail out a Nation paying itself twice what it is worth; what an incredible economic innumeracy & astonishing illogical reasoning to decide to join the EUro-zone and dismiss the UK's sovereign right and responsibility to react to World Economic conditions according to National/Citizen interests!?
You fund Greeks retiring at 60 if you wish: Leave the UK out of it!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8544904.stm
Buzek: "...his behaviour ... was ... insulting to the dignity of the House....I cannot accept this sort of behaviour in the European Parliament."
EUpris: 1) The "EU"-parliament has no dignity. It has colluded with a despicable act of dictatorship - imposing the Lisbon Treaty on the British people.
2)It is not the "European Parliament". It is the "EU-parliament."
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"EU President-elect Van Rompuy vows to work for all"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8369555.stm
Well in that case, demand that we get the referendum we were promised and to which we are entitled! As long as you don't do that, you are worse than anything Nige calls you.
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MaxSceptic
Re #95
"..How do you vote out your EU masters..?"
Now, now, don't be cruel: Being tough and blunt about the parlous state of the Greek economy and the impact upon the EUro-zone and EU is one thing, and we can all sympathise as the 'pro-EU' dissemble and bluster about how Brussels' one-size-fits-all economic union is not at fault and its 'anglo-saxons', its the 'media', its 'hedge-funds' etc. - - poor lambs have had their raison d'etre for life on the point of collapse - - the reality that 'unity 0 strength' can only go so far is a really salutary lesson many of them still refuse to accept.
It is quite another story to start asking the really awkward, basic, pertinent questions as to the EU's 'democratic' functions for which there is only one tough, blunt and wholly accurate answer:
I.e. They cannot vote out their EU masters.
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Mark Austin
Re #87
I note your jeering tone, but am at a loss as to why you feel such an attitude anymore constructive than those you decry!?
Actually, unsure which 'sterlingites' (your label) have been poking "fun" at the EUro?
I believe a fair few comments have pointed out that a lot of idle boasts by 'pro-EU' lobbyists in recent years regarding the 'strength', 'unity' etc. of the EUro-zone as so much superior to the Pound, Dollar etc. have been left a little short when the reality is examined.
The EUro is a decent Currency, so is the Pound: There is nothing new or vastly challenging about the rise and fall of currency values - - it is the impact of the Greek economic-fiscal collapse that is paramount in affecting the EUro(zone) at this period and no doubt in due course as the crisis eases so the EUro will become stronger.
As for the UK Pound it is in its own struggle due to the much weakened economy, but again, as a Currency it will regain value if and when appropriate anti-defecit measures are in place (irrespective of the Political Party in power). Neither NuLab or Conservative will be adopting a 'join-the-EUrozone' policy in the next Parliament as it simply would be wholly unacceptable to the Citizens and even more relevant: It would not be acceptable within the Fiscal Markets until the UK and EUro-zone are both well clear of the present straitened circumstances. E.g. I cannot imagine the German Economy favourably viewing a UK entry in the next 5 years - - the destabilising effects of such a manoeuvre would be too open to the exact same pressures as the 'speculators' are supposedly bringing to bear over the Greek debacle.
Now and in a more stable economic-fiscal era there is no reason to believe Pound and EUro cannot function side-by-side as they have done for the last decade.
The lesson of the Greek crisis is that the EU-Brussels' claims to be infallible in all things is exactly as so many have foreseen: So much duplicitous hot air and wishful thinking.
I have written it before and do so again; it would no doubt help all the 'pro' and 'anti' EU debate if just for once the 'pro-EU' lobby would own up to Brussels having made some mistakes and the doctrine of 'one-size-fits-all' is not the blanket answer to 27 Nations' issues.
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The actions of the bankers continue to create problems around the world and the bankers dictate proper financial policy after bringing the world economy to a stall with their own unethical examples. Hypocrits.
It appears that individual counrties are willing to abuse their own taxpayers on behalf of the banks but unwilling to have their taxpayers abused for the well-being of other countries that the banks have undermined. Remember, in the end, it will be the banks that benefit from the solution. Greece should nationalize the banks and save on interest alone. Everyone feels the pain but the banks. Something is wrong with that.
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With the EU you have the cart before the horse. Monetary union has only ever been successful after political union in the past. Now way can the Greeks and other Southern EU states economies perform to the same discipline as Germany. The Euro is doomed and the DM will be back within a couple of years
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@34 Nik
Hi, Nik. It would be quite difficult to me to comment professionally all those interesting topics you have just raised in your last posts. Let’s take the so called pro-US Bulgarian PM, Mr.Borissoff. Being still a member of the BSP (ever since 1971!), I have all the freedom to criticize our PM as being too pro-… for the simple reason that we are in opposition now (the BSP is considered here as being a pro-Russian political party: you can see the paradox!). However, his last declarations concerning the “Belene” nuclear plant project (on the Danube River) and the South Stream gas project (both of them being started by Russia) assured the people here that he has not the least intention to abandon them. On the contrary, during his last meeting, here in Sofia, with the European Energy commissioner (Herr Gunter Jottenguer) he declared that all the details concerning the said projects and the Nabuko project (I mean the funding of, the choice of the strategic investor for the nuclear plant) etc., would be discussed first in Brussels. I guess this is a good perspective both for Bulgaria and Greece. Let’s hope that Mr.Borissoff will keep promise… As to the Burgas-Alexandropulus pipe line for brut petrol transport (not for gas transport), Mr. Borissoff said last month in an interview on the national TV, that the Government was still in the process of elaborating “a definite assessment” of the whole project in view of its impact on the environment. In the mean time, the regional minister, Mr. Plevnelieff said that the shares of the building Co. Technoexportstroy will be bought out by the Finance Ministry in order to transfer all the control over to the Bulgarian state as being the only existing national shareholder. I would consider these last news as an indication that our PM would rather seek higher transport taxes from Russia and Greece than a pretext to abandon the whole project (as you know, Russia has 50% share, Greece 24,5%, Bulgaria 24,5%). So far, only two small right wing parties here declared themselves against this project. As far as I know, the Brussels people (as we are accustomed to refer here to the EU institutions) did not make, so far, any official or unofficial declaration that would raise whatever objection to the starting of the Burgas-Alexandropulus project, except for one high ranked British official (I cannot recollect his exact name) who tried to convince us (on the national TV) that all the three projects (he did not mentioned a word for the Nabuko project) would bind irreversibly Bulgaria with Russia, a fact that would endanger, as he said, our national energy security and the energy security of many other EU member states.
I hope Nik this data would be useful to you. Next time I shall allow myself to comment your interesting vision on the eventuality of some politico-military conflicts in the Aegean Sea region.
Regards, Generalissimo
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In relation to No. 128 - EUprisoner, what kind of a rock did you crawl out from under?
Don't you think you are being just a little bit extreme and closedminded?
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IronFranco, thank you very much for your insightfull presentation the Bulgarian and what the curreny government plans to do - it is something expected from Bulgaria to negociate better its position for the transit of gaz like any country would do - the issue here is not to miss any opportunity cos at the end of the day for such contracts you can still re-negociate after some time given so it is better a "seemingly bad contract than no contract at all".
(personally I am not any pro-Russian just to be with the Russians - it is just that 1+1=2, and Russians simply given more than Americans - do we live in a free market world or not finally? to be capitalist or not to be?).
What I find dangerous is the British approach (as you precisely described above) and that is why I am one of the few that speak a lot about Britain (while others spend their energy on speaking about US only). You see that Brtain from the other end of Europe jumps and says "Ah! Danger! Danger! This project must be cancelled cos it will link inseparably Bulgaria and Greece with Russia!". So? What is their problem? They are not even in Eurozone to be affected by that? See what I mean? According to them countries such as Bulgaria and Greece should rather be slaves to the monopoly of Saoudi dirty (and often blooded) crude than the clean neat Russian gaz. I am sorry but I feel much more in (financial as well as physical) security when I buy my energy in the form of gaz imported via pipeline than in the form of crude brought by ships. And Russia is by all means a more secure partner than whatever Saoudis or the Emirates.
So what if Bulgaria and Greece will be linked energetically with the biggest energy provider on earth? Who has a problem if not the US and Britain on that? And that is why they hinder that development, thus impeding the further development of the production and market of these countries.
But pay attention, it is not only the energy. It is also if not mostly the geostrategic things that come after: Russians will simply jump down to the Eastern Mediterranean, its the next move. And US will play again the muslim fanatiscism game trying to help Turkey bind together the smaller muslim minorities remnants of the previous century with the massive influx of (strangely only) muslim illegal immegrants (as if hindus, bouddhists and comfucianists snub Greece!) to provoke more problems and they might do that in Bulgaria in the local muslim minority too, attention - note this and keep it for the future. Note that the current deconstruction of the kemalist state and the rise of islamists in Turkey is something that is not commented by the US (i.e. it is somethign they implictly want in order to aid them in their geostrategic plans in the area, i.e. provoke more problems in all the neighbouring countries). We will see much more of that kind.
When I tell you that the financial crisis in Greece is not the biggest problem looming you just cannot understand the extensions of that. It is another thing to be taxed 3-4% more and it is another thing to have the fate of say Cypriots.
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135. At 9:35pm on 02 Mar 2010, Islandhopper1 wrote:
"In relation to No. 128 - EUprisoner, what kind of a rock did you crawl out from under?
Don't you think you are being just a little bit extreme and closedminded?"
EUprisoner: Don't you think that promising the British people a referendum and getting voted in on the basis of that promise is more than a little bit extreme?
What do you think of Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia? Was that a bit naughty? Was it a bit extreme? There is something of the arrogance of Hitler in those that want to impose the Lisbon Treaty on us knowing that we don't want it.
In the seventies I spoke to a German man who's dad had had the opportunity to assassinate Hitler, had not taken it and spent the rest of his life regretting it.
The man's mother was Jewish. One day she got taken away and murdered. They had lived in Germany on the Czech border at a border crossing. Hitler had driven past in an open car and the dad had a gun!
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#125
EUpris:van Rumpoy is a very rude man. His rudeness consists of agreeing to be a servant of a lousy dictatorship. 82% of Brits wanted a referendum. 70% wanted to say NO. We were promised a referendum. We didn't get it.
Could you please stop whining about this? The referendum was not granted by Tony Blair on the proposed EU constitution, nor by Gordon Brown on the Lisbon Treaty. This treaty is now in force: that is a fact, which cannot be undone by whining about it. Blaming Mr. Van Rompuy is downright dishonest, since he did not promise the British electorate anything about a referendum. He is not responsible for the actions of the British Government. If you want to change things, propose yourself for election in the British Parliament, if necessary in collaboration with Nigel Farage. However, I doubt that you have the courage or the intelligence to follow such a course of action.
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Excellent Viennese newspaper, Wiener Kurier reports Luxemburg Prime Minister and "Eurogroup Chief (?)" Jean-Claude Juncker threatening speculators with torture.
Are we getting a hint of the future of the "EU"?
Would Islandhopper1 consider this to be "just a little bit extreme and closedminded?"
Or is it OK if it comes from a High Priest of the "EU"-religion?
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107. At 12:48pm on 02 Mar 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
"Mickalus @104,
You seem to favour someting 'revolutionary'.
Why do you assume that a 'revolutionary manifesto' won't end up just as racist and bloody as any 'establishment'. "
I certainly don't favour anything revolutionary.
My point simply was that Green aims are not revolutionary, their agenda elsewhere and I assume in the UK too is to educate and adjust the path of society along more ecologically sound and sustainable trajectories, not to overthrow or to radicalise it. I fail to see how a Green vote will not hugely change the UK's status quo in Europe, when it didn't plainly did not do so in either Germany or Ireland.
Again - I know nothing about UKIP or BNP, their methods or aims - nor do I wish to. It does strike me though that your post casts possibly casts a Green vote as a protest vote, from the company in which you mention it?
By the way, you do know that the reviled Lisbon Treaty thrust upon the British people clearly delineates an exit methodology. If the EU cramps your style so much ... there is a door available ...
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Junker is also quoted as saying:
We must again strengthen the primacy of politics (policy?). It must be able to stop the financial markets.
EUpris: Like how, Man?
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Junker also came out with the crumble about a financial government, primarily for the Eurozone.
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"123. At 5:53pm on 02 Mar 2010, vassilis wrote:
Greek PM in a dramatic tone said today that we are at a 'war' situation and severe measures will be taken (probably announced tomorrow, on top of measures already taken). I predict a total cut of around 20% or so in salaries (which are quite low already compared to rest of EU despite the borrowing spree*), plus increase in VAT, petrol etc. Combination of cuts in salaries and increases in cost of living will be an explosive mix.
However for the time being I predict a mixed response, of course there will be demonstrations and strikes but I think that the vast majority of people will take it almost patriotically that they have to live with less. There will be discontent for sure many people will have problems finding enough money to live.
*there are exceptions: employees in the economic ministry, judges, tax collectors, civil servants in the parliement and other specific groups have quite high salaries (too high in my opinion)."
Hi Vassily,
I extend sympathies. This agenda is very similar to the one undertaken in Ireland over the past number of months. It is a very difficult and it is a wrenching experience. It does however, ultimately deliver the foundations for the prosperity our societies deserve.
Stock the course Greece - we all extend our very best from the other end of the EU.
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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100028181/nigel-farage-is-fined-other-euro-sceptics-beware/
When MEPs hooted and jabbered like stricken animals at the President of the Czech Republic, no action was taken (see here). When the then Liberal leader, Graham Watson, said that pro-referendum campaigners reminded him of Russian Communists and German Nazis, he was roundly applauded. When Martin Schulz, the Socialist leader, said that Eurosceptic MEPs made him think of him of Adolf Hitler, the Euro-MPs behind him nodded sagely (... Weirdly, the clip of Shulz’s remarks can no longer be accessed on the EP website.)
By contrast, when Nigel Farage, the leader of UKIP, complained that Herman Van Rompuy, the new President of Europe had the charisma of a wet rag, he was fined 2,980 euros.
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Jeeze!!!!!
Have I opened a can of worms or what??????
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Re: 144
Sorry! I should have emphasised that these are Daniel Hannan's words and not mine.
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145. At 11:14pm on 02 Mar 2010, Islandhopper1 wrote:
"Jeeze!!!!!
Have I opened a can of worms or what??????"
EUpris: Anti-democratic, arrogant, megalomaniac "EU"-lovers created one of the biggest can of worms of all time by forcing the Lisbon Treaty down our throats when they knew that 70% didn't want it.
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Nik and Generalissimo :o)
I'd be more relaxed about the South stream pipe and the crude oil pipe, I think both will eventually happen (simply because practical for all, exporter, transit countries and user countries) (and there seems to be no "extra/un-needed" gas or oil for Europe in the near future, neither ever "extra/un-needed" money for all of us involved. LOL!
just some negotiations of course will take place ordinary bargaining this and that. And then LOL more bargaining reviews etc when both work I mean we have tubes here and there as if I haven't seen that happen :o) Normal.
The thing though to keep in mind is neither tube will save us :o))), it will be just a chunk of business, one of several hopefully chunks.
Belorussia and Ukraine and Kazakhstan and who not around have tubes throughout, get a portion of their country revenue of it, but that's not the total and never enough. Well, Belorussia is doing not badly on that, but then they are just 10 mln people, only the place looks big.
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And then Belorussia has another important component for well-being, it's not only a tube but it's that they don't have corruption.
Because their Lukashenko rules, how to say, not exactly practiccing the modern Chinese approach to handling the thiefs :o), not exactly Stalin's, but in that spirit definitely :o))
They are not swarmed with oligarchs and live poorly but more or less and kind of fair, all alike.
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A very interesting, a month old, newsarticle from the LA Times :
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2010/02/greece-debt-guarantee-european-union-california-lockyer-obama.html
I know there are lots of loons out here, dreaming of the demise of the EU or the Euro. Indulging in over-dramatization of the current Greek state's budget travails or forgetting their own miseries through schadenfreude, yet they would do better not losing too much perspective.
It has already been said, but Stephanomic's blog is a lot more informative than Mr Hewitt's when it comes to economic matters.
Best regards,
Best regards,
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EUpris,
Just tie the EU flag and the Irish tricolour to a stake and burn them both, it will make you feel better.
Then drink yourself a bottle of Fench wine to help you get a good night's rest.
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ChrisArta, 85:
"... forget the centuries ...": isn't there a saying somewhere about those who don't learn from history?
I wasn't suggesting there are no costs to currency conversion: of course there are. But where your argument breaks down, it seems to me, is that you seem to suggest that other EU states occupy some sort of unique position with respect to British trade and leisure travel. They don't; where you experience frustration in having to convert between pounds and euros, plenty of other British people experience frustration in having to convert between pounds and US dollars. Should Britain adopt the US dollar for their benefit?
"We do most of our trade with the rest of the EU" ... a few comments on this:
1) Most of our trade is in fact internal to Britain.
2) In terms of foreign trade: are you really saying we do more foreign trade with the rest of the EU than the whole of rest of the world put together? Do you have a source for that? If true then so be it, but I'd be surprised, given that virtually everything seems to be made in China (the most recent example I saw was a tube of own-brand toothpaste from a major supermarket!).
3) Even if true about foreign trade, your statement applies to today; we need, as you quite rightly say, to think of the future. In 10 or 20 years, most of our trade might be with India or China. Both those countries have developed economically in a much more dynamic way than Europe, and will probably continue to do so.
Finally: speaking of China: I understand the Chinese have put forward a suggestion for a single global currency. If that suggestion is adopted, that would put an end to all our irritations with currency conversion costs!
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This article is also very refreshing, and how much more factual than Mr Hewitt's pre-cookings :
http://nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=22920
It concerns muslim's different integrations in France and the UK re dangers of islamism for the US national security.
In particular, it takes on a detailed look at how religious symbol bans, national identity policies and social/cultural conflicts have been misrepresented.
Best regards,
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The UK can't quit the EU. If it does, who will help the Germains bail out the PIIGS? Nobody seriously expects France to I hope. That really would be imagining the impossible. So where else could the money come from. Is the EU really going to steal IMF money intended to save people starving in Africa to save the jobs of corrupt do-nothing civil servants in Athens, Lisbon, and Madrid?
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@152
UK Trade and Investment Bureau only shows the UK's 25 main trading partners (though accounting for around 85% of total trade).
Basically, around 50% to 55% of UK trade is done with the EU exclusively.
Around 4.5M jobs (15% of working population) in the UK are dependant on the EU markets, while 6.5M (3.5% of working population) jobs in the EU are dependant on UK markets.
But you can also use those statistics :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom
Or this blog :
http://european-federation.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-european-economic-community-eec.html
To see by yourself that the UK main export and import trading partners are from the EU.
Best regards,
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Conspiracy anyone?
There is always a conspiracy lurking just under the covers. I'd like to propose one. Nik if you've already proposed this one I apologize if I've missed it. The names have not been changed to protect the innocent.
Let's say way back, Germany and France knew that Greece and others would eventually have a hard time maintaining the agreements with regard to the Euro. What if by getting the various countries to accept a common currency by accentuating the positives they found a front door proposal that seems innocuous while knowingly creating a back door. When the small countries fall, the big boys can ride in on a (you pick the color) horse and save the unfortunate ones with this caveat. Enhanced political union (read control) in order to never have this crisis happen again. Some on this blog a proposing stronger controls which end where?
This theory would mean that economic union would precede political union and not the other way around. Brilliant don't you think. Well it's as reasonable as aliens being kept at Area 51 or the CIA being behind the bombing of the Twin Towers.
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MaudDib;
I have another theory. How about when the idea of a single currency came up and so many people got excited about it when they were caught up in the rhetoric, nobody wanted to cinsider this possible eventuality for even one moment because they were just plain stupid?
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Stupid is a stupid does. Isn't that what the great philosopher FG said.
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The silver lining in all of this is that the UK will never go into the Euro now.
The EU free trade area was a good idea, a common currency between sovereign states with wildly different economies and fiscal policy was never a good idea.
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159. ninetofivegrind
Never say never. It's a curse, I'm telling you.
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"Never say never"
"Stupid is a stupid does"
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Yo, MaudDib, or how do you say it. Long time no hear :o)
I got deviated a bit into the int'l figure skating union blog. It was so peace and quiet there (that is, until I logged in :o) you can't imagine.
:o)))))
But they are quite prizoners there, the set of rules is one can't discuss fairness of the judging (sacronsanct by definition), connect sport and politics as 2 things incompatible, fan for a country or say you are from a country, bit only very abstractly go about it, how to say, because countries don't compete, only separate skaters. In other words it's an oasis in the storm, that place, one where all are real impartial and the nasty world has got nothing to do with it. So I don't know if it's worthy to be there, because I'm afraid I can't stay in, forever? :o)))) They don't provide room service and accommodation.
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I think the blogs will be about Greece until Greece is fixed so all should may be donate some money or ideas quick.
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Interesting the mood is reflected in the jokes' site as well
In USSR the approach was "children don't answer for their fathers" and now they will have to pay for their debts! :o)
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:o)
"There watched tovarisch Stalin from the other world the hockey in Vancouver and said to Molotov:
- Vyacheslav, we should have annexed Finland after all in 1940. Now we'd have a bronze at least."
Acc to the media reports Olympic medalists will be delivered home by 1st Class. The rest of the team, apparently, by econom-class. And the hockey team they'll just toss into the luggage cargo section.
:o))))
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Before it was sweet. kiss-kiss-kiss. :
"Happiness - it's when all are at home and all are sleeping."
______________
Now:
"Happiness it's when it's spring and Olympic games are over! :o))))
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MaudDib, I have this to cheer you up :o)
Astronomy a-la Americano: Mercury, Venus, USA, Mars, Jupiter...
:o)))
Astronomy a-la Rus: Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia....
:o))))
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Yo Alice
I think I've been modded for using a Russian term. It might have been a curse word for all I know but wasn't supposed to be.
So you mossed into the "international ice skating blog". I bet it will never be the same. Kinda like in American western where the gunslinger comes to town. I can hear the town folk now "Run for you lives, Bad Alice is in town and she's looking for a fight!"
Did you see where they stole the gold medal in hockey from our boys. Just disgraceful wasn't it. I guess "they" were the boys from Canada. Hell no I ain't forgetting. We'll just have to settle this in Sochi. Be sure and wear a big cowboy hat so I can pick you out. (leave the gun at the house).
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Yo Alice
and another thing........
I watched a program on the tele detailing the eruption of the Siberian traps some 250,000,000 million ago. That and the coal fires started lasted a million years and wiped out 95% of all life on earth. I know you were young at the time and probably don't remember. What is it about Russia? If it ain't the land acting up it's the people (-_-)
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This latest debacle of seeing so many EU politicians fence-sitting triggered by the possibility that Greece might imminently default on an International Loan Interest payment has basically done for the EU ever becoming a Reserve Currency any time soon.
I fully accept that 60% of the UK's foreign trade is with Europe but I wonder if this percentage of foreign trade has changed much since the UK voluntarily joined the European Economic Community (EEC) back in the day.
What I would like to know is how that percentage changed from pre-EEC days - was the UK actually more active within Europe after joining the EEC or was it simply that the benefits of EEC membership, at the time of joining the EEC, was that it was an expedient measure simplifying trade with pre-existing european trading partners?
It would be rational to understand that the UK trades more actively with neighbouring nations as many costs such as transport costs would be much reduced trading close-to-hand as compared with trading with the USA or Commonwealth nations. I therefore suspect that the UK already had existing trade with Europe back in the day and joining the EEC was of mutual benefit to both Britain and the EEC member nations.
What I fail understand is that anyone can extraplolate that the UK would be worse off outside the EU as nations such as Norway, Iceland and even Israel have excellent trading partner connections/conditions with the EU and none of them use the Euro (other than in price conversion, the same as the UK does when trading with any other nation outside of the EU). It is also true to suggest that no one forces those nations to be in the EU to gain those connections/conditions or threatens them with damnation, fire and brimstone should they remain non-believers in the God EU.
I used to work for one of the major global pharmaceutical companies and foreign trade was/is a 60/40 split with the USA and Rest of the World (including the EU) respectively. I am talking in terms of billions of dollars worth of profit with this company but the exchange rate for the Euro and the Dollar remains the same to day as it has done since before the inception of the Euro - the only benefit is actually not cost reductions but simplification as overnight several nations adopted the Euro and a basketful of currencies became one - exchanging GBP to US dollars or, indeed, any other currency such as Dinar, Lira or Rouble continued as before and conversion costs were already but a small cost of the traded profit margins, the introduction of the Euro just made things slightly more simple.
I can accept quite readily an argument for there being a global currency but we already had and still have that, in effect, with the US Dollar. The inception of the Euro with the dream that it would become THE global Reserve Currency was but a pipedream and, until there is real economic and political cohesion within the EU which is as long way off, the Euro is never going to usurp the US Dollar.
This latest expose of the inherent weakness of the Euro due to the disconnect between political and real economic cohesion of the Eurozone nations merely exemplifies that the Euro is just one of of a number of basket currencies. What the lack of political and economic cohesion within the Eurozone could produce is a basket-case currency that becomes globally worthless and the Euro only useful within the Eurozone as a tourist currency ..... that or toilet tissue!
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I was interested today to hear an authoritive opinion that Greece will default on its debts . We shall see . I think if all the other EU members states contributed to paying off the debts , it would be to no avail . An interesting informative site is www.littlesis.org , Kevin Connor . Germany should not even think of bailing out Greece , their people would be outraged . Britain should never consider joining the Euro , even to accomodate ChrisArta's frequent visits abroad . If a sizeable amount of his income is earned in Euros , leave some of it in a European Bank account . As I understand , Britain mostly trades at a loss with European countries , its profitable trade is with the rest of the world . Several commenters refer to the British Pound's slide in the exchange rates , suggesting that it is entirely due to the poor state of the British economy . I live in Thailand and receive income from Britain , so am constantly watching exchange rates .
I see that the Euro has dipped as much as the Pound ; I guess that the cause is the financial crisis in Greece , that the pound has devalued in line with the Euro that is severely threatened , not only by Greece but several other countries , who also falsified accounts to join the Euro .
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Look, if anyone doesn't want their euros, send them to me. I'm starting to feel sorry for this currency, and would be happy to give any orphaned bills a good home.
Surely this topic has been done to death?
Europe must have some other news?
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WA;
"I think the blogs will be about Greece until Greece is fixed so all should may be donate some money or ideas quick."
They've been trying to fix Greece for a few thousand years now. Give it time. BTW, trying to fix Greece was the real cause behind the fall of the Roman Empire. Don't let them try to tell you otherwise :-)
According to BBC, the Greek government has decided on another round of government spending cuts and raising taxes. But will it go far enough? It's under a lot of pressure from the EU. The EU doesn't want to go the way of Rome either. Will it have a choice.
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@152. At 11:57pm on 02 Mar 2010, CornwallCoastPath wrote:
"But where your argument breaks down, it seems to me, is that you seem to suggest that other EU states occupy some sort of unique position with respect to British trade and leisure travel. They don't; where you experience frustration in having to convert between pounds and euros, plenty of other British people experience frustration in having to convert between pounds and US dollars. Should Britain adopt the US dollar for their benefit?"
Hold on. Do you actually believe that the US is more important to your economy than the EU? LOL
Seriously mate, It wouldn't hurt to actually look up facts...
"In terms of foreign trade: are you really saying we do more foreign trade with the rest of the EU than the whole of rest of the world put together? Do you have a source for that? If true then so be it, but I'd be surprised, given that virtually everything seems to be made in China (the most recent example I saw was a tube of own-brand toothpaste from a major supermarket!)."
Ah yes, nothing beats hard, raw economic data except for your 'personal experiences' especially the toothpaste-experience.
Perhaps you can take a look at this site and the excel file provided:
The UK exports more to Belgium (EU country, 10 million pop) than to China (non EU country, 1300 million pop)
THe UK imports roughly the same from the Netherlands (Eu country, 16 million pop) than from CHina (non EU country, 1300 million pop)
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=topPartners
@154. At 01:01am on 03 Mar 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Re "The UK can't quit the EU. If it does, who will help the Germains bail out the PIIGS? Nobody seriously expects France to I hope. That really would be imagining the impossible. So where else could the money come from. Is the EU really going to steal IMF money intended to save people starving in Africa to save the jobs of corrupt do-nothing civil servants in Athens, Lisbon, and Madrid?"
The IMF is not intended to save people from starving in Africa. We are used to reading a lot of nonsense from you, but you're making a real effort here!
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171 Memedemus
I'm not sure whether the purpose of the Euro was to undermine the dollar's position as the world's reserve currency. The Euro makes sense for many of the core European countries who frequently trade and travel between one another. It reduces transaction charges and the uncertainly of variable exchange rates but it's clearly not right for everybody, and there are some countries who were allowed into the Euro who clearly should not have been.
As for the 'why don’t we have a looser relationship like Norway' question, which keeps on coming up, Norway is in the happy position of having lots of natural resources so it doesn’t really need to join the EU, but if it ran out of the those resources I suspect it would want to join fully rather than retain the existing arrangement. Why? Because although Norway adopts a lot of EU Directives, it doesn't really have any say in agreeing them. So if you take, say, the cars sector, the EU prescribes safety and environmental standards for cars which Norway normally accepts. If Norway wants higher standards, or is happy to allow lower standards then, it can try to amend its own legislation but it will probably have little effect. Vehicle manufacturers produce cars for the EU market to EU legislation and if they need to produce special versions for the Norwegian market, either they won't bother or they will charge an inflated price. The same goes for other sectors. If Norway is going to continue trading, it will eventually want a seat at the table.
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154. At 01:01am on 03 Mar 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"The UK can't quit the EU. If it does, who will help the Germains bail out the PIIGS? Nobody seriously expects France to I hope. That really would be imagining the impossible. So where else could the money come from. Is the EU really going to steal IMF money intended to save people starving in Africa to save the jobs of corrupt do-nothing civil servants in Athens, Lisbon, and Madrid?"
As always, your concern touches.
We don't need bail outs. We got ourselves into this situation, we'll get ourselves out of it. We're adults, and accept our responsibilities.
Nonetheless your regards and implied good wishes cheer us all immensely, as our wishes and fond regards will cheer you in your budgetary adjustments.
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@172 Huaimek,
I think we should accomodate my frequent trips abroad. Why should a bank get money from me in the form of exchange rate, for giving me my money 100K down the road (and across some water). I consider myself as equaly important as a bank.
About keeping money in a Euro account it is not as simple as that, because I have to first get the invoiced amount, convert it into GBP then pay tax, then convert it back to Euro, so really I saved nothing. It is that conversion that really bugs me. I can't see the need for it!
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Starbuck11
Re #155
Or, to put it another way 40 to 50% of the UK-British Isles (exc Eire) Trade is NOT with continental EUrope.
So, there is a population of 60,000,000 predicted to rise within a decade or so to 70+ million that is a really substantial 'market' for the rest of EUrope.
Yet those Islands Peoples, already the 3rd largest in the EU, are apparently unable to manage in the big, wide Economic - Production - Trading World without a supra-National entity deciding its key policies in such matters!?
For Germany being the largest and most Populated Nation directly in the centre of EUrope a supra-National entity over which it directly influences every key feature of the other 26 members makes a lot of sense. Afterall, what it and other previous Historic 'unifiers' of all persuasions failed to achieve by aggression it is now close to attaining and dominating by economic-political-judicial fait accompli (which is where France comes in). Aided and abetted by Paris which for 50 years has known its best supra-national policy is not 'encirclement' and it would do rather better to join-in the venture and thus 'encompass' a pan-EUropean institution.
Meanwhile, there is not a shred of evidence the UK/England need be in any sort of Political Union in order to achieve the Trading - Economic - Fiscal viability with that continental organisation.
How likely is it that 60 to 70,000,000 Britons are going to be left/ignored/forgotten by an EU and therefore even more accessible to the other 'globalised' World Producers-Traders?
Answer: Not in any manner that need concern the UK/England.
How would the UK foregoing any significant sovereign Rights and Responsibilities or succumbing to numerous pointless Directives etc. to its Citizens stop being a juicily tempting Market for the EU membership?
Answer: It would remain one of the most profitable trading targets in Europe and the World.
How does having 70+ UK MEPs, some Commissioners and subjection to the ECJ assist anything for British Citizens in the decades ahead?
Answer: None of it matters a jot to an independent UK/England which could attain by negotiation all the lucrative agreements it and the EU would see as viable to each other's ongoing concerns.
What is the EU for in regard to the UK/England?
Answer: It is for Paris-Berlin-Brussels to dispose of irrespective of British Citizens views and concerns, e.g. the Lisbon Treaty - - EU Pres Barroso and other EUrocrats can claim to represent millions upon millions knowing full well those millions have had no say in determining the issues. Such 'leaders' actions are as duplicitous-connivance to ensure hegemony as Bismarck's Ems Telegram or Constantine's conversion to Christianity.
The British Isles neither needs nor wants full membership of an EU in order to prosper; it is entirely up to other European Nations what they choose to do with their National inheritance: The UK/England does not possess any special factors other than that it is the off-shore Islands and its cultural-social-political inheritance is not that more commonly shared among mainland EUropeans.
40 to 50% Trade with the rest of the World existed pre-EU: One wonders how much of a calamitous error previous generations of UK Leadership made when abandoning the historic 'colonial' linkage around the World that is now so 'globalised'? What a visionary arrangement was overthrown! Afterall, there could have been no more globalised example of Trade/Production etc. than UK/England's connections stretching from Africa to Asia to the Americas.
All that was given up to become 1 of 12 in continental EUrope! An astonishing and immensely costly lack of foresight by UK Politicians-Economists-Business! Hence the present crop of lightweights cling to a mantra of 'EU is good, Rest is bad': Despite every instinct and historical lesson revealing an over-centralised, controlling entity is anathema to national, individual, entrepreneurial, inventive marketability and development. All areas the UK/England still has in abundance and are jealously coveted by Paris-Berlin-Brussels.
Yes, as ever, UK/England needs EUrope and, so does EUrope need UK/England, but neither need be held in check by the other in order for both to prosper in this globalised World.
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151. At 11:52pm on 02 Mar 2010, Islandhopper1 wrote:
"EUpris,
Just tie the EU flag and the Irish tricolour to a stake and burn them both, it will make you feel better. ... "
EUpris: So what made you bring the Irish flag into this? Do you think I am anti-Irish. I ain't.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@CBW
Re "The British Isles neither needs nor wants full membership of an EU in order to prosper; it is entirely up to other European Nations what they choose to do with their National inheritance: The UK/England does not possess any special factors other than that it is the off-shore Islands and its cultural-social-political inheritance is not that more commonly shared among mainland EUropeans."
I wouldn't have expected such undemocratic remarks from you.. Need I remind you of the positive referendum on EEC membership in the UK?
The UK citizens fully accepted the EU. The following treaty revisions were ratified in full accordance with the constitutional rules of the UK.
Hence, the Uk people gave their agreement.
If the UK people so wish, they can organize another referendum to settle the matter. Until then, please refrain from making these statements.
Related to this, I might remind you of the fact that the EEC neither the original member states ever asked the UK to become member. It was the UK that begged thrice (and got refused twice) to become a member.
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democracythreat, I am starting for the first time doubt the advantages of the direct democracy. What canton is Lausanne, where that int'l skating union is barricaded up? Anything peculiar of their laws, may be, different from the rest of democracy-loving Switzerland or anything? :o)))) a one-off exception? What it means, in your lawyer view, when rules applied to judging and scoring and overall, the whole set of rules, published publicly on-site, has every second page an interruption called "Rule 528-534 reserved". ? Does it mean these rules are not to be known for all but only for the Union pay-roll employees (for it isn't defined anywhere what it stands for) (I read a thousand pages) or that the space is reserved type "we leave it for ourselves as our right to insert here additional rules when we please" ?
I've got serious doubts with this direct democracy you advocate for us all as an ultimute solution to European problems. It looks nice from the Eagle's view but when you get into details of it I am afraid I prefer a whatever from the outside but good when you get to the details of it.
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@136 Nik
As I have already promised, I feel a little bit obliged to comment your interesting visions on the eventuality of some historical revenge of us, the orthodox nations that under the banner of and with the help of mother Russia should regain our lost influence in the Eastern Mediterranean. I perfectly understand your wounded feelings over the loss of Northern Cyprus and over the obstacles inherent to the exercise of the Greece sovereignty over the 12 miles territorial waters.
Well, all this is the present reality. All this is true. What next Nikolay? Shall we, being civilized European nations and member states of the EU stick always to our lost (through the history) positions, now that our (EU) union is the only visible chance to survive and to prepare another peaceful and very successful existence for our children? The military victories belong to the last century Nikolay, at least in Europe. We should reconsider all our policy within the EU. We should prepare the ground for a more successful economic development of South Eastern Europe. We should first rely on the existing opportunities Brussels would reserve for us no matter how painful for us is to apply the high Brussuls standards. Second, the Russian energy cooperation could also be very helpful. The problem is how to interpret all these possible opportunities (just like the Brits are taking full advantage of both the EU membership and of their privileged relations with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and America). Do you see the picture Nikolay or not? If we are really willing to win other, more privileged positions within the EU, we should establish very, very balanced politico-economic relations both with Russia and Turkey thus avoiding whatever political engagement with them. Work hard and take full advantage of our EU membership and of our geographic position here, on the Balkans. This is what we should do now Nikolay. Just work hard! We lost the cold war; we lost the economic & ideological competition between the East and the West. Do you want us to loose another battle? Certainly not.
Generalissimo, Sofia/Bulgaria Marsh 3rd 2010
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Jean Luc, if one is to be sincere as an advocate for a cause, and avoid bringing disrepute upon those whom one seeks to promote, one must take care to argue a position from a position of intellectual dignity.
This does not mean that one needs to hold qualification, or even to be learned. A child can retain a sense of dignity, as can someone who argues from nothing more than a vague emotional sense of righteousness.
Now in your case, I have no doubt that there is considerable personal satisfaction gained by provoking anger and frustration. But you are too crude, too clumsy in your approach. It is transparent that you argue not from any sense of honest belief in the democratic mandate of the EU institutions, but only from a cultivated confidence in the superiority of your person. This provocative and deliberate arrogance may serve an aristocrat well as he or she scolds errant serfs, and indeed it may impress like minded people in a large organization based upon feudal values, but it cannot allow the partitioner to retain any semblance of dignity.
Dignity and pride are not the same thing. Dignity requires a degree of humility, and more than a small share of empathy for the fundamental rights and sensitivities of all human beings.
It is precisely the lack of dignity that makes the self promotion and cultivated arrogance of feudal lords intolerable to modern, educated people. It is what makes the rational and decent folks in a modern society rebel against the animal loyalties of feudal tribalism, and indeed it precisely the lack of dignity in totalitarian hierarchies that drives humanism and the popular fascination with peace and human rights.
You live in the modern world, Jean Luc, despite the environment in which you work and socialize. If you wish to advocate in genuine service to the institutions of the EU, I can only suggest you relinquish your petulant fascination with authority and try your best to appeal to the rational sentiment of the modern, if common, intellect.
The days of animal tribalism are gone from Europe, and the divine rule of great families will never be more than an ugly historical throwback amidst modern people.
Until those who promote the EU internalize that fact, and seek to cultivate a genuine mandate from the people of Europe, there is no way the EU can ever become more than a laughing stock in the wider world.
China, India, America, Russia: all these great nations watch and laugh at the bizarre antics of the European elite, and wonder at the way the intellectual power of the European people is held in contempt by a few small men and women. These great nations may have started behind the development of Europe, but they move rapidly forward according to ideas and rationality.
Europe, by hideous contrast, attempt to move backwards into feudalism, retreating from its dwindling importance in world affairs and trying to hide itself in outdated concepts of royalty and authoritarian pride.
That is undignified, Jean Luc, and no amount of hubristic pride can alter the fundamental equation for Europe. The EU institutions must either adopt a modern democratic approach or fail in the longer term.
We do not live in the middle ages. It is time Brussels accepted that fact, and showed some leadership instead of vanity.
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Jean Luc @182
Quote: "I wouldn't have expected such undemocratic remarks from you.. Need I remind you of the positive referendum on EEC membership in the UK?
The UK citizens fully accepted the EU. The following treaty revisions were ratified in full accordance with the constitutional rules of the UK.
Hence, the Uk people gave their agreement."
The United Kingdom referendum of 1975 was a post-legislative referendum held on 5 June 1975 in the United Kingdom to gauge support for the country's continued membership of the European Economic Community (EEC), often known as the Common Market at the time, which it had entered in 1973 under the Conservative government of Edward Heath. Labour's manifesto for the October 1974 general election promised that the people would decide "through the ballot box" whether to remain in the EEC. (Source: WIkipedia)
The EEC became the EC and then the EU by laters Treaties over which the British People did not have an electoral say as the manifestos of none of the major political parties has ever offered the electorate such choice and even when the politicians finally agreed to the electorate having a say over the EU Constitution, the governement reneged with meally-mouthed deception. UK MPs believe that, once elected by majority popular vote, they have the absolute right to govern with Parliamentary Supremcacy. Even the 1973 Referendum could not be binding upon Parliamentary Supramacy within the UK.
The referendum question for the British People that agreed to staying in the EEC was, "Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?"
I voted in that Referendum and am willing to say that I voted "Yes."
That question did not infer, promote or even permit that future British Governments would go on to sign Britain up to further integration into anything more than what was called the Common Market and certainly did not provide mandate to create the EU which is a political organisation and supremacist entity.
I now bitterly regret that I voted "Yes" in the 1973 Referendum as I think the British People were mugged by the politicians and now believe the British People should be asked the question, "Do you think the UK should stay in the European Union (EU)?".
I would abide by the majority decision. That would be true democracy!
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ironfranco !
Please read again what you wrote... and sounds stange about that Russian did nothing... WHO di for your freedom "Count Ignatieff, as being envoy of Emperor Alexander II, signed in San-Stefano, a suburb of Istanbul, the armistice which recognized the independence of Bulgaria"
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"I now bitterly regret that I voted "Yes" in the 1973 Referendum"
Look on the bright side Menedemus...at least you had that opportunity. I have never had that and I am 36. Thirty six years of age and despite constant growth of the European Superstate, I have never had a real say.
Jean Luc's theory on why the British people have given their consent will be treated with the contempt it deserves.
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Jean-Luc (182):The comment 186 from Menedemus is one reason why you are wrong in post 182 to say that the EU of today has democratic legitimacy in the UK. But another is that even if the UK electorate of 1975 had knowingly voted for absorption into an ‘ever closer political union’ (which they did not), nobody under the age of 53 today was able to vote in that referendum.
The generation of voters alive today cannot legitimately be bound against their will by a combination of a 35-year vote on a different matter by a generation many of whom are no longer with us, and a party political duopoly that has so far denied the majority wish of the British electorate alive today not to be subsumed into a political union with the Continent.
------------
"We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country." – T. Jefferson
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#188,
Same here Freeman, but then I didn't have say in our union with Scotland either :))
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@187 Maria
I am sorry if my English is not quite clear. The armistice and the peace treaty of Marsh 3rd 1878 signed by Count Ignatieff and by the Ottoman Empire representatives followed logically the liberation war of 1877-1878. The Russian casualties are estimated at about 200000 on both fronts (I mean on the Balkan and on the Caucasian war theatres).
Sofia, Marsh 3rd 2010
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186. At 12:05pm on 03 Mar 2010, Menedemus wrote:
In advance I say I do not know how the UK political system works, bu I have some questions about the comments Menedemus makes. These questions arise out of a genuine interest to understand not to provoke UK posters.
From previous contributions, I learn that Parliament is supreme, even over the will of the electors. The composition of Parliament is determined by universal suffrage. Is that end of the role that the people of UK play in the process?
It seems to me that many contributors here want a referendum on EU membership, which could only ever be consultative, and that Parliament can chose to accept or ignore, as it wishes. Is that not what is happening now, without the process of a referendum?
Parliament cannot bind it's successors. What then makes Treaties 'stick' in the UK?
If for example, a party sympathetic to the UK leaving the EU were to gain a Parliamentary majority, and the UK leaves the EU. The inevitable economic and political fallout of such a move causes this party to lose power, and on dissolution, is replaced by a Parliament with more sympathy to Britain rejoining the membership. Can such a Parliament not simply hold that the action of leaving the Union does not bind it?
If the British public are so overwhelmingly against continued membership, why aren't your politicians so motivated, and simply declare the results of the 1970's referendum as non-binding and withdraw?
Again - I genuinely want to be informed. These questions arise out of interest, not to provoke.
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I too was too young to vote in the original referendum, but I remember my father voted in favour (since he knew that both Tony Benn and Enoch Powell were against the common market) but my mother was against, because she'd read (probably in the Daily Express) that she wouldn't be allowed to buy New Zealand butter any more. Times change, but the tabloid press remains the same.
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189. Freeborn John
We had this little union back in the 1800s. Part of the union wanted to separate from the other part mostly because of economics (you know money). A similar scenario seems to be playing out with Scotland and the UK. Well, then president Lincoln and a number of his cohorts thought different on it. Who would supply raw materials to the North and who would buy the goods manufactured in the North. If we loose the southern States we won't be as big and big is better. Just ask Russia.
The northern brothers formed a consensus.
Can't happen, ain't gonna happen, and it didn't happen. Worst we didn't get any kind of Marshall plan for the ass whupping we took. Just a bunch of Yankee carpetbaggers. Whose predecessors had burned everything to the ground. No hell no, I ain't forgetting.
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@Menedemus & Freeborn John
Re "Jean-Luc (182):The comment 186 from Menedemus is one reason why you are wrong in post 182 to say that the EU of today has democratic legitimacy in the UK. "
Now now. I wouldn't care if the EU has democratic legitimacy in the UK or not. I don't care about the UK, it would be much nicer and easier if the British, who can only nag and say 'no' (never ever having done anything constructively in European integration), would simply leave the union.
My point is that supposed lack of democratic legitimacy can not be traced back to the European level. If this lack does exist it needs to be traced back to the national level.
"But another is that even if the UK electorate of 1975 had knowingly voted for absorption into an ‘ever closer political union’ (which they did not), nobody under the age of 53 today was able to vote in that referendum."
Again, the why and how of that referendum is not really relevant to me. An international treaty (like the treaty of accession) is like a contract: two parties voluntarily meet and agree to take on obligations (no use of force!). Then ofcourse the two parties better read every part of the contract so that they know which obligations they undertake. Since 'ever closer union' has been written in the Treaty since 1957, the UK electorate could have known this. By agreeing to stay in the EC, they agreed to ALL terms of the contract, including 'ever closer union'. The fact that a majority (?) regrets this afterwards, does not change this LEGAL reality.
Concerning your argument on old and new generations: Under international law there are states and international organizations (with legal personality). Those can undertake relations ( = conclude treaties). If a treaty is concluded this is concluded by the state (not by generation x of the state).
Alhtough you might have a political argument (certainly not a legal one) this again is something purely internal to the UK.
The problem isn't situated therefore at EU level, but at UK level. Only the Uk authorities are competent to organize referendums in the uk (the EU hasn't got this competence, it would be a breach of the Treaties to do otherwise).
The treaties only provide that treaty revisions should be ratified in the member states according to their constitutional law. If the UK government therefore notifies the ratification of a treaty revision (Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon) the other member states and the EU institutions can only assume this is done according to the UK constitutional law.
If your government promised you a referendum, but then broke this promise, this is again something internal to the UK, completely unrelated to the EU.
I know it must be hard to accept for you all. Complaining about an undemocratic superstate EU. While the ones who (undemocratically?) refused you the referendum you wanted are your own national leaders. The same (undemocratic?) leaders you would give more power to if you would ever leave the EU.
But in the meantime, you can continu to blame the evil Brussels Bureaucrats for every and anything. Keep electing people like Nigel Farrage (checking in on a nice € 10.000/month without doing constructive parliamentary work (and ofcourse without reimbursing this salary to the UK either!)) and electing governments that keep marginalizing your country in the decisionmaking of the EU by incessant whining and reservations. Afterwards you can come on this blog and complain about the evil Brussels-Berlin-Paris axis deciding everything for you!
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@180
EUPris , Do you not think you SHOULD be anti-Irish.....to go with your general theme about Europe?
Clearly both you and Marcus Aurelius clambered out of the same bed together.
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"How do we know this? The Greek Economics Minister Louka Katseli, among others, has let us in on what HE was told."
Louka Katseli is a woman....
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ironfranco,
Congratulations by all means, warmest wishes and long live Bulgarian Empire -1!, Bulgarian Empire - 2, The People's Republic of Bulgaria and Republic of Bulgaria ! :o)))) in other words - Bolgaria - in all of her beautiful formats !
To the health of Kirill and Methodius! Your health, and, how to say -
Sante!
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Micky;
"We don't need bail outs. We got ourselves into this situation, we'll get ourselves out of it. We're adults, and accept our responsibilities."
You country is run by a gang of crooks. It is a nation of the crooks, by the crooks, and for the crooks. Adult crooks but nonetheless as crooked as a three dollar bill. They've lied about their finances from day one. Are they suddenly telling the truth now? Who knows? Even if they are, it's probably too little too late? Who cares? If it were just a matter of the Greek Drachma collapsing Greece would be about as important to the world's economy as Zimbabwe or Albania. But now that it is welded at the hip to the rest of Euroland, they're all in the same leaky rowboat together. If your end of the boat goes down, so does the rest of it. That is the only reason Greece matters. And if the Germans didn't care about the Greeks before, bringing up the Nazi past only made them angry and detest any sacrifice they would have to make to save Greece in order to save themselves. I'd say the smart money will still bet on a bailout by the IMF with more coming from the EU. But this and Greece are only the first outer bands of the hurricaine. The real storm is still some time off in the future. When that hits, it will be over.
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@170 cool_brush_work
If all the Brits do share your vision about the role the EU institutions have to play from now on and about the consequent impact for the national sovereignty of each member state, the biggest error Tony Blaire made was the signing of the Lisbon Treaty.
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@WA
Alice I love you!
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"190. At 1:43pm on 03 Mar 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
#188,
Same here Freeman, but then I didn't have say in our union with Scotland either :))"
Indeed. I think the question should be asked with the interest it seems to have. Interesting though that even now after centuries bad feeling remains from the Act of Union (even though many in Scotland liked it).
Mauddib last remark at 194 is a fine example of the anger that can simmer with the creation of a superstate. One that cost hundreds of thousands of lives by one part forcing it on the other half.
Our future?
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@ 179 cool_brush_work
My post @200 refers to your post 179 (not to 170).
Sorry for the error.
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democracythreat
Re #185
Sometimes an accurate assessment of another contributor is so all encompassing that nothing else need be added:
"..lack of dignity..", "..deliberate arrogance..", "..petulant fascination..", "..undignified..", "..hubristic pride.."
Master-class expose of one of the most inadequate these Blogs has ever had to endure.
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The situation shows the absurdity of the single currency for the EU where one size fits all for a group of diverse economies. What Greece needs now besides eliminating its waste and corruption in government is a stimulus package to encourage private investment and resulting economic growth, a devalued currency to stimulate exports and discourage imports, lower taxes, and more deficit spending again to stimulate its economy. What it is getting instead is exactly the opposite. The tight money policy demanded by Brussels will choke off whatever is left of the Greek economy. This because what would be good for Greece would not be good for Germany, at least as they see it and right now they wield the political power at the ECB. Greece is now entering the death spiral zone where decreased economic activity will only lead to lower GDP, less tax revenues, greater deficits, and demands by the EU for even more cuts and higher taxes. The viscious downard spiral has now begun for Greece. Will it bring all of Euroland down with it? Stay tuned.
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199. At 3:40pm on 03 Mar 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
As ever, you continue to delight. Helpful and the first as ever with the support!
Firstly, please refer to a helpful Rand McNally. Comfortable? Good. Can we locate North America? Very good. To one side of North America is a large body of water called the Atlantic Ocean. On the opposite side of the Atlantic ocean of are two continents, Africa and Europe. Europe is the one with the funny collection of peninsulae, the northern one (that's code for towards the top of the map). Between Europe and Africa (the Southern one, yep towards the bottom of the map) is the Mediterranean sea. So Greece is in the Mediterranaen Sea, connected to Europe. Two and half thousand kilometres the NorthWest of Greece are two islands. The smaller of these is called Ireland.
I'm Irish. My people are upstanding, hard-working and honest. Our politicians are badly flawed, but we elect them to such positions. Your rabid diatribe is rejected.
My country met the Maastricht criteria for the admission of our then currency, our punt, to become a member of the Euro by virtue of exchange rate stability through the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, the convergence of our interest rates with those of our German partners and until 2008 extremely low government debt, as strictly set forth in that treaty. There is nothing untoward about Irish membership of the Euro. Your reasoning is wrong and is also rejected.
If this offal is meant to provoke strong feeling - the only one this motivates is extraordinary pity for your appalling ignorance.
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To ironfranco
Freedom of the Bulgarian people, I will drink to that!
Alexander II, not half bad Russian, I will drink to that too!
Cheers!
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196. At 3:24pm on 03 Mar 2010, Islandhopper1 wrote:
"@180
EUPris , Do you not think you SHOULD be anti-Irish.....to go with your general theme about Europe?
Clearly both you and Marcus Aurelius clambered out of the same bed together. "
EUpris: Not at all! You are demonstrating the "EU"-lovers prejudice which is that those who hate the "EU" hate other Europeans. I used to be a member of my local Irish society and do Irish dancing. I am currently trying to learn Italian. I an working my way through the BBC Quickstart Italian course. I recommend it, but it is not enough. So today I have been learning how to buy myself a skirt in Italian and I haven't even shaved my legs!
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182. At 11:00am on 03 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote:
" .. Need I remind you of the positive referendum on EEC membership in the UK?"
EUpris: I was living in Germany at the time. I have read that every household got a pamphlet saying tha any loss of sovereignty would be limited. As I say, I wasn't there so I didn't get one. However the promises that we were supposedly made are consistent with the lies the British people have been told repeatedly for about forty years. So I am inclined to believe that it was so.
"The UK citizens fully accepted the EU."
EUpris: No they most definitely duid not! It was 1975 ad the rotten thing was not called the "EU" then but either the Common Market or the EEC.
"The following treaty revisions were ratified in full accordance with the constitutional rules of the UK."
EUpris: They were ratified by parties which got into power by lying to the British people so these treaties are waste paper.
"Hence, the Uk people gave their agreement."
EUpris No!
"If the UK people so wish, they can organize another referendum to settle the matter."
EUpris: We were promised a referendum but didn't get it so the Lisbon Treaty is just more waste paper.
"Until then, please refrain from making these statements."
EUpris: CBW can do what he likes. I am confident that he will not stop complaining. I am not going to stop.
"Related to this, I might remind you of the fact that the EEC neither the original member states ever asked the UK to become member. It was the UK that begged thrice (and got refused twice) to become a member."
EUpris: I doubt if you really know that. I certainly don't. What I can tell you is that I moved to Germany in 1972 and the Germans certainly wanted the UK in.
Other Common Market governments must have known that the British people were being lied to but did nothing of which I am aware to point out to them what the real agenda was. They are also partly to blame for the continued aggro. They are lucky it has not yet got violent. I hope it doesn't and I am definitely not threatening violence.
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195. At 3:08pm on 03 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote:
" ... it would be much nicer and easier if the British, who can only nag and say 'no' (never ever having done anything constructively in European integration), would simply leave the union."
EUpris: Please, please, please throw us out. Representative democracy isn't working.
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Some comments are really surprising!
1. We are again hearing from UK nationals that they want a referendum on the EU. OK, that is an internal matter for the UK, not for the EU. The 1975 referendum confirmed entry into the EEC, and British abandonment of the EFTA. Since the EEC had integration written all over the place, it is surprising to see that some of the British electorate treated it as just another free trade organization.
2. Marcus is rather harsh in his judgement of Greeks (all crooks, apparently). The problem with Greece is the state, which was never strongly developed after it got somehow free after 400 years of Ottoman occupation, only to suffer thereafter constant pummeling by the 'Great Powers'. Individual Greeks are, on balance, quite nice people, just like individual Americans. Since WWII came up in the discussion, let's not forget that in october 1940, when the UK fought the Germans alone, Italy invaded Greece and was repelled. Churchill recognized this feat quite well in his memoirs.
3. What is at stake are fights between groups of people about power. I.e. the Wall Street bankers want more money for themselves, and after packaging toxic mortgages they are now betting against sovereign debt while knowing that they sold the Greek government financial instruments allowing to cover up the level of debt. In fact they are out to make money by trying to break up the Euro, using financial instruments closely akin to 'a fire insurance taken out on the house of the neighbours', as one person put it.
4. The Nazi bit arose from a rather crude picture on the front of the German magazine Focus, to which Pangalos, an outspoken populist politician with a long history of making troublesome remarks, overreacted. This helps the Wall Street bankers, since it sows divisions in the ranks of the people using the Euro. So people who like to foment nationalistic feelings in the EU are actually supporters of the Wall Street bankers.
5. In the 1990s, there were many discussions about constructing the Euro, and it was clear that a homogeneous group of countries could support it (Germany, France, Benelux, Austria and perhaps Finland). However, other countries wanted to join, and this was admitted since EU decisions need unanimity (i.e. the structure of the decision making allows a member to block regional groups). So now we are there, we'll sink or swim together, and it is normal to extend solidarity to everyone in the Eurozone. Greece, or any other country in the Eurozone not adhering to the 'Maastricht criteria', is testing solidarity, but by doing so does not become a stranger overnight, who can be left for the wolves or the Wall Street bankers.
6. The role of the UK in the EU is as difficult as it was evaluated by Charles de Gaulle when he vetoed British applications in the sixties. The UK consistently wants to keep continental Europe in 'balance' i.e. divided and weak. Since the French-German axis was strong at times, this meant pushing for enlargement of the EU until it waters down to a free trade area. At the time of the Maastricht treaty, it meant opting out of the social chapter (obviously the poor development of the social chapter in the EU has lead to an increase in the democratic deficit). It also means keeping out of the Euro, out of Schengen, and yet claiming a large role for British politicians in the EU circles. Witness the push for the discredited Blair as EU Council chairman only a few months ago.
7. Which brings me back to point 1. Yes, please have a referendum in the UK about whether to leave the EU, if only to gain clarity.
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195. At 3:08pm on 03 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote:
" ... I wouldn't care if the EU has democratic legitimacy in the UK or not. ..."
EUpris: More US Americans died in their Civil War than in WWI and WWII together. Maybe one day you will care.
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Jean Luc @#195
I do not disagree with you that the blame for the UK being in the EU is entirely the fault of the UK Westminster Parliament. I thus entirely agree with the thrust of your discourse at #195.
I merely pointed out at #186 that where, in #182, you wrote "...Hence, the Uk people gave their agreement. indicating that the people of the UK had voted for membership of the EU - this was entirely and utterly an erroneous statement.
The people of the UK voted in 1975 to stay in the EEC to which the UK Parliament had committed the UK 2 years previously (For my sins, I voted "Yes" and was one of the majority who voted "Yes" to staying in the Common Market). What the referendum did not empower the UK Westminster Parliaments to do subsequently was cede additional UK Sovereign powers to the EC or to the subsequent EU - the later UK Westminster Parliaments have done that entirely without real mandate of the general electorate either through ballot box voter choice (having the option to cede additional national sovereignty as an election issue or single issue referendum) or clear and distinct Party Political Manifesto to provide choice on further integration - thus denying voters a real choice between one political party and another when it came to closer integration within Europe.
I entirely accept your view that the fault for democratic shortfall lies within the UK political process. That, of course does not mean that I accept that the EU represents a democratic institution as the EU is governed by political appointees mandated only by nomination by 27 Heads of State with rubber-stamp approval of a Parliament that is peopled with Party Political appointees not elected on merit but entirely through party political affiliation. But that is entirley another separate discussion.
I do not believe that the United Kingdom Westminster Parliament should have ceded any of its powers to the EU without the distinct mandate and clear authority to do so as I believe that Parliamentary Supremacy (which I mentioned at 186) is only granted by voter choice to govern the country within existing sovereign powers and voters do not grant Parliamentary Sovereignty to cede away sovereign powers unless the electorate grants that specific permmission by majority vote. In the ceding of soveriegn powers to the EU to date, I believe that the majority of Members of this and previous UK Westminster Parliaments have exceeded their mandate and have been conspiritorial in not offering the UK electorate the choice to remain or leave the EU.
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Mickalus @#192
Regarding the following: "From previous contributions, I learn that Parliament is supreme, even over the will of the electors. The composition of Parliament is determined by universal suffrage. Is that end of the role that the people of UK play in the process?
It seems to me that many contributors here want a referendum on EU membership, which could only ever be consultative, and that Parliament can chose to accept or ignore, as it wishes. Is that not what is happening now, without the process of a referendum?
Parliament cannot bind it's successors. What then makes Treaties 'stick' in the UK?"
Once a Parliament is elected the Political Party with the largest number of seats within the UK Westminster Parliament will seek to form a Government. This Government is empowered for a maximum of 5 years and cannot be impeached or Parliament dissolved without the leader of the Parliamentary Majority, the Prime Minister, going to our Head of State (currently Her Majesty, The Queen Elizabeth II) to grant Sovereign's permission to dissolve the parliament. Even if the Governement loses a vote of no confidnece with some of its own members voting with the opposition, it is nigh on impossible to get rid of a sitting Parliament.
In this respect, the General Electorate have a democratic choice that they may exercise every 5 years (or less) but once they have elected their Government (often with only about 30% share of the whole electorate)they are stuck with the voted choice for the duration of that Parliament. On a personal note, I think the whole prosess is rotten and leads to rotten Parliaments just as we have had a rotten Parliament in the UK for the past 3 years.
Our unwritten Constitution within the United Kingdom simply puts the UK Westminster Parliament in absolute control of the governance of the UK - conferred as a result of the English Civil War. The Parliamentary Supramacy put the House of Commons superior to the Sovereign and to the Monarch's House of Lords which is an unelected Upper Chamber which can refuse to pass Laws of the Lower Chamber of Parliament but ultimately may only do so a few times before the Law must pass - if the Lower House of Commons continues to vote it through.
Treaties are agreed between States and agreed by Governments of the Day in the United Kingdom. The Treaties have to be ratified by Parliament and the Monarch of the United Kingdom but once ratifed and enacted they are unable to be retracted by the UK unless a future Parliament choses to do so. I doubt very much that the UK has revoked a Treaty in living memory and the consequences of doing so would likely lead to a loss of trust at international relationship levels.
We do have the situation in the United Kingdom that the Lisbon Treaty now does give the UK Parliament the option to withdraw from the EU. It would be a simple task for a UK Westminster Parliament to hold a referendum and ask the question as to whether the UK remain or leave the EU - then, provided the Parliament agreed with the majority vote to leave the EU (were that to be the case and I do not know the answer to that question!) they can apply to leave the EU which takes approximately two years to complete. The strange thing about the UK is that, even if the UK Elctroate were to vote in a referendum to leave the EU, the UK Westminster Parliament can choose to ignore such a vote - they might be mad to do so but that is the right.
Prior to the Lisbon Treaty, the only member state to leave the EC (EU) European Community has been Greenland and as far as I know Greenland continues to thrive and has not fallen off the Planet. In fact, if the Environmentalist and Global Warming Theorists are right it might even be a nice place to take Summer Vacations by 2035 - one even wonders if that is the fire and brimstone that are threatened to be visited upon nations that dare to leave the God EU and it is not due to man-made Global Warming!!
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195. At 3:08pm on 03 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote:
" ... never ever having done anything constructively in European integration. ..."
1) We have paid billions to this sick, megalomaniac rubbish.
2) Why would we do anything constructive in European integration when
2.1) we were promised it wouldn't happen and
2.2) the idea of being in a political union with the continentals is one of the most stupid ideas ever?
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It will probably be known tonight that the Greek government has taken new steps to cut the deficit.
The partners in the Euro-16 group welcome this and there are also suggestions that they are prepared to assist Greece financially.
Also chairman Jean-Claude Juncker has declared he is ready to take measures against the market should it react in an unacceptabel way. The point is to get reasonably interest rate for Greece. High rates would of course make the situation even more difficult.
It is coming so approximately as we have predicted here.
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Mickey;
I don't know what makes you think dislike Ireland any more than I dislike the rest of Europe, that I find Irish culture any more distasteful than I find any other European culture.
Your country is famous for widespread incidence of alcoholism, misogyny, and now the coverup of widespread psychological, physical, and sexual abuse of countless children by those in the employ of the Catholic Church at all levels including Priests and Bishops. It appears Ireland is beneath its veneer of civil rule a theocracy where the perpetrators of these heinous crimes are beyond prosecution and punishment. The world and Ireland seem more preoccupied with how the Church will deal with this than the civil authorities will. They seem impotent, powerless, paralyzed to do anything about it.
BTW, I don't like Irish cooking or beer either. You can keep your Guiness stout and your Old Bushmills, boiled potatoes, boiled cabbage, boiled corned beef, everything boiled until it is tasteless mush. I suppose enough Old Bushmills and Guinness and nobody cares about much, even the lack of the taste of food.
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ChrisArta @#190
I am born of Scotland and live in England and I won't get a vote if the SNP proposal for the Scottish Referendum on Independence goes ahead.
Do you think that fair?
As a by-the-by, the UK Labour Party in 1975 were 2:1 against joining staying in the EEC and the "No" vote was led by some immense Labour Party Luminaries. In Scotland and Northern Irelnd the "No" vote to staying in the UK was considerably higher than the "No" vote percentage in England & Wales.
It is strange how things turn out, if the same question was asked today regarding membership of the EU, I suspect that the party political allegiance would only remain the same for the Liberal Party (or their successor Party as it is now!) - I suspect that Scotland would now be more in favour of staying in the EU than England and the Labour Party would be more pro-EU than the Tories.
Such is the result of 35 years of liberal-socialism policies and "Adverse Risk" international politics and pacifism as provided by the EEC/EC/EU during that time.
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@207 Jukka Rohila
Thank you friend. I was sure you were well acquainted with our common history. Cheers and thank you again!
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Marcus Aurelius, throughout the last few decades, some people -particularly in America and Britain- have been predicting an imminent collapse of the European Union. You might be right this time, but I am not holding my breath.
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Ironfranco
Re #200
In all honesty I have no idea how many British Citizens feel as I do about the EU and/or Lisbon Treaty etc.
As Freeborn, Menedemus and many others have pointed out at times it is 1975 the last and only time the UK Citizen was asked anything about the Common Market, EC, EEC, EU etc. (whichever label we care to use).
In the intervening 35 years there have been immense changes at all levels of the supra-National institution.
IMO a few of these changes have been for the better and a great many to the active detriment of the UK/England and also of continental Europe.
It is true to say UK Citizens have been denied a voice/say on the developments primarily because of their own venal, self-serving Political Leadership: Their greed-driven fingers and those of their profit-motivated buisiness supporters are so deeply embedded in Brussels that I believe there is no way are they going to permit any Popular expression of opinion on the modern entity (hence Cameron's climbdown on Lisbon which was as much of a betrayal of Britons as Brown's refusal to hold the Manifesto-promised Referendum).
However, that is not quite the whole story: If the EU is the 'democratic' institution and practitioner of Human Rights it lays claim to be then clearly Brussels too has a part to play in whether or not the UK/England population will have a voice in their Political-Social-Judicial set-up. It simply does not cover or sustain the present situation for the EU and 'pro-EU' lobbyists to point to the term "..ever closer union.." in 1975 as if that applies for time immemorial.
Since when did EUropean Citizens feel obliged to uphold Laws and Regulations agreed decades ago pertaining to their Rights & Responsibilities simply because previous generations and governments felt it correct at the time - - if that were the case then Capital Punishment, Ban on Homosexuality, Unequal Pay etc. would still be on the Staute Books - - clearly the EU has felt able to intervene in what it claims is the interest of Citizens, however, Brussels denies any involvment in the most fundamental Human Right, that of being able to decide the 'political' future of a People. The EU has actively colluded in denying the UK/England Citizens their Political Free-will.
IMO that alone is reason enough to despise and oppose the whole institution as corrupt and anti-democratic.
So far it is evident the corrupt venality of Brussels is as willing to pay lip-service to Democratic functions as the UK National Parliament.
If, as I suspect a Majority of English are opposed to 'ever closer union' with the EU entity whereas Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland populations probably want the closer ties, there is absolutely no way of knowing as no British and/or EUropean Leadership have the Statesmanlike quality and vision to put the issue before the British Public for a once and for all final Vote.
PS: PM Tony Blair colluded at the inception of the Lisbon Treaty and opposed a Referendum on it in the UK, however, it is unelected PM 'Jock' Brown who actually led the ratification process through the Westminster Parliament.
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MAII re. #217,
You can put Jamesons and Guinness together if your a Fenian but please don't mention Bushmills in the same breath as Guinness or Jamesons.
Bushmills is yer quality brew made in Bushmills, County Antrim and has orange in the label which explains why, even in Scotland, Bushmills is the Irish whiskey of choice for some people! ;)
Personally speaking, I'll take a wee dram or three of whiskey be it Jameson's or Bushmill's - especially if it is single malt and at least 12 years old!
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@217 MA
“I don't know what makes you think dislike Ireland any more than I dislike the rest of Europe, that I find Irish culture any more distasteful than I find any other European culture.”
Mark, are you really in good command of your feelings? Is this what your heart and conscious are really telling us? Have you ever heard someone among us, your fellow bloggers, launching such blaspheme about the American culture or about the American nation? Give us at least one example. We are not discussing politics now. We discuss values, Christian values.
Generalissimo
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214. At 6:19pm on 03 Mar 2010, Menedemus wrote:
Menedemus - my thanks for your post. So to distill, would you agree that the UK remains a member of the EU because successive Parliaments will it, in spite of what your posts suggest the public feel about the EU.
Why do you think this might be?
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To Menedemus (218):
The reason why there is so much support for independence in Scotland has propably very much to do with the London centric development model of the UK. Both Glasgow and Edinburgh have become just some old towns in the North UK.
Now compare this to other European states, for example to France or Germany, in both of them the state has build fast train links and tried to develop regional cities to be living centers of their regions or have some unique specialization in Europe.
As the UK has failed to develop and treat its different regions equally, maybe not so much because of ill-will, but because of neo-liberal policies, there is little that staying inside the UK would offer for example to Scotland. Compare this to having independent Scotland, it would be full right member of the EU, Edinburgh would be one of the capitals of Europe, etc... and as Irish and other have managed to renew themselves economically via help of the EU to become modern prosperous economies, there might be a dream of renewing the Scottish economy and society to become a roaring Scottish Wildcat.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
211. At 6:16pm on 03 Mar 2010, smroet wrote:
" ... We are again hearing from UK nationals that they want a referendum on the EU. OK, that is an internal matter for the UK, not for the EU. ..."
EUpris: NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!
The "EU" interferes frequently in the internal matters of "member states." It could and should have demanded a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in the UK.
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Menedemus
Re #213
An excellent contribution.
Sets out in superb detail the relevant 'democractic defecit' vis a vis UK/England Parliaments and the EU role.
I readily voted 'Yes' in 1975 to the EEC: As a graduate & member of HM Forces I believe I had a fair idea of how the politics was turning then; at no time did any literature on the Membership Referendum state that 'ever closer union' was a preamble to the evolution of a EUropean Union. On the contrary, the 'pro-EU' literature and newspapers such as the Mirror, Guardian ran full page advertisements prominently pointing to a need to avoid 'future wars' and to the benefits of Low Trade Tariffs & Cross-border economic links. So far as I recall there was only scant mention of the 'political' hope for a EUropean Parliament to bring more 'democracy' to the enlarged EU; and, there was even less referral to any form of 'political union' which ALL 3 main Party Leaders in speeches made clear was NOT on the agenda (infact at my German base barracks they showed a Film in which 'sovereignty for the UK Parliament' was a key feature - - it being pointed out British Soldiers would only ever be under UK&NATO Command as HM Forces could never be subject of orders issued by a EUropean Economic Community.
So far as I am aware most lads like myself were in favour of closer links that the Common Market offered and we also could not see the purpose of an outer circle of Nations, EFTA, and an inner circle when ALL West Europe needed defending from the Soviets.
A Common Market> Made sense then and makes sense now whereas Political Union centralised and controlled from Brussels never ever made any sense back then and is utterly senseless now.
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Marcus Aurelius,
Have you ever tried Clonakilty black pudding?
Its delicous, and its not boiled but fried - the second most popular way of cooking food in Ireland. Guess what the ingredients of it are.....
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A roaring scottish wildcat?
Jukka, you have hidden talents.
In fact, your flair for poetry is so overt that one suspects some red russian blood in those blue Finnish veins.
A roaring scottish wildcat, he says. My god.
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ironfranco, @201
:o)
I'm, even, lost for words
Generalissimo, you've achieved un-achievable :o))))
"I love you too" ? That's not patented local. Generalissimo, I'll find you something on youtube-sky service. xxx
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Austrian Radio website quotes Transparency International.
It is reported that corruption is part of everyday life in Greece. Greeks pay on average 1,355 Euros (I take this to mean on bribes each year.)
Last year it is claimed that 790 million Euros were paid in bribes by Greek "families." (I don't know how to translate the word "Haushalte".
Families is pretty near.)
According to Austrian Radio according to Transparency International corruption is partly responsible for the Greek financial situation. Bribery is a daily part of business life.
The 1,355 Euros that Greeks pay in bribes each year e.g. to accelerate the issuing of a driving licence or a vehicle licence, for building permission and for the manipulation of the results of a tax inspection.
It goes on, but I think you get the picture.
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The reports of corruption in Greece quoted by Austrian Radio is the sort of thing which could get you labelled as xenophobic or racist for telling the truth. It isn't xenophobia. It is xenofact.
It isn't restricted to Greece.
I could not possibly want to be in a political union with the continentals.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mickalus @#224
At the present time none of the three major UK Westminster Political Parties appears to be willing to lead an exodus from the EU. That might well be because, politically, the EU provides the UK Parliament with an easy scapegoat for any unpalatable legislation that the UK Parliament enacts. The alternative suggetion that I might put forward is that the UK Westminster MPs think they know what is best for the British People and do not trust the electroate to make what they, the MPs, belive to be th right decision - what they might be forgetting is that they, the MPs are there by electoral mandate, not because they are any more knowledgeable, clever, and know any better than their masters ... their electorate!
The British MPs can and often do suggest that they are only legislating their interpretation of EU Directives or ECJ Rulings .... all part of the cynical deployment of law in the UK which regularly sees far more legislation passed year-on-year than in probably any other Parliament on Earth.
It is very easy for British MPs to blame the EU when, in fact, much of the UK Westminster Parliament legislation is merely redefining practices already in place within the UK - the fact is that the rest of the EU Nations are far more laissez faire about implementing EU Directives which just highlights the difference between the over-legislated British and their more laidback european neighbours across the English Channel.
Actually, unlike many sceptical Britons who query the existence of the EU and are desperate to see a referendum or General Election actually offering voters the choice of staying or leaving the EU, I am not sure that there would be a definitive majority vote for the UK leaving the European Union.
Like many fellow British Citizens, I am not against close co-operation with the rest of Europe and hope to see Britain as part of Europe and not isolated. I simply detest the way that the EU has evolved form the original Common Market and is now a supranational government managed by 27 EU Commissioners who are selected - not elected - to power by a caucus of just 27 Heads of State. That to me excludes the majority of the population of Europe from democratic choices as to how they are governed at supranational level and so makes the EU less democratic than I would like it to be .... in my view.
As to whether enough of my fellow British agree with me would be their democratic choice and the truly democratic test as to whether the UK should remain in or get out of the EU would be to give them that as real choice.
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@221 cool_brush_work
With all my respect, if I have correctly understood what you and other bloggers have already posted here, the Brits seem to be divided over the Lisbon Treaty issue; I mean that some (North) Irish, Scots and Walsh, as well as many Labour members would favour some further spiral of politico-economic integration within the EU. (I agree that the Lisbon treaty will inevitably limit the sovereignty of all the 27 member states, just like the federal authorities do in the US). And what will happen next? Shall half of the Brits leave the EU with half of the British treasury? I do not think they will. Better to refurbish a little bit the Lisbon treaty and to fire half of the EUrocrats.
Regards
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Generalissimo,
here's the musical accompaniment to your Bulgarian party :o)
The old and the new.
1. dial in youtube A.Bayanova 3:15 third from the top
She's singing in her 95-year jubilee concert.
"well what, if I shall be obedient? :o)
From yourself - you will not go far.
And to strokes of fortune - ? even-souled. indifferent.
There is no love - so what?! so, the hell!
What's for me all grievances,
Life's sea
One can pour out to the bottom!
Heart, be quiet! Higher, higher, glasses of the old wine!"
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"That might well be because, politically, the EU provides the UK Parliament with an easy scapegoat for any unpalatable legislation that the UK Parliament enacts. The alternative suggetion that I might put forward is that the UK Westminster MPs think they know what is best for the British People and do not trust the electroate to make what they, the MPs, belive to be th right decision "
Any way you look at it, that is the very definition of a dictatorship by elitists, whether the justificatoin is that they know what's best for the people, better than the people themselves or that they are just carrying out the directives of those in Brussels who know best. This is in keeping with the European notion of how society should be organized going back thousands of years. It is the antithesis of democracy no matter what its forms or platitudes would have anyone believe otherwise. This alone is reason to despise it. That the society virtually unanimously not only does't protest against it let alone oppose it in open revolution only proves that their submissiveness is a form of collusion in acceptance of it. In a real democracy, in the United States for example it would lead to war, a violent fight of protest to the death. That is what the American Revolution was all about, rejection of this kind of submission to arbitrary authority that answers to no one.
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.. and the new
dial in you tube Pelageua (her name in English) and it will be second from the top. 5:10 She is about 19 now, I think.
I heard when Kremlin employed her for singing for some of the visiting diplomats LOL, several years ago, they all wanted to adopt her, as thought type what they do with 12 year olds in this Russia :o))) that they sing so sad songs :o))) with such natural expression :o))))
Folks don't understand that when Russians are happy they start singing sad songs. The first sign. :o)))))
An old cossack song
"there drove cossacks, there drove cossacks, there drove cossacks, 40 thousands of horse
And the shore got covered, and the shore got covered
By the hundreds cut and sliced and shot men...
refrain: Lovely, brothers, lovely! Lovely, brothers, (to) live!
With our at -a -man (the chieftain) and doesn't have to regret much!
(well, a sudden conclusion, from the first verse above, must admit. :o)
So the first bullet, so the first bullet, so the first bullet -
It wounded my horse
And the second bullet, and the second bullet, and the second bullet
Wounded me right into heart...
See happy refrain as above :o)
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MaudDib and Mavrelius, I recommend you to have a look at Pelageua as well. thene you'll be treated like your presidents. I think she sang for Bush. 203,350 views on youtube in spite of young age. Plus heaps of presidents treated this way.
Must be, as a warning :o)))
Like, look into this girl eyes and think double :o))))
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EUprisoner209456731 (232)
But you are missing the big picture. Transparency International report is more or less true. What you are missing is simple words.
“It is reported that corruption is part of everyday life in Greece. Greeks PAY on average 1,355 Euros”
Pay, pay, pay....
“The 1,355 Euros that Greeks pay in bribes each year e.g. to accelerate the issuing of a driving license or a vehicle license, for building permission and for the manipulation of the results of a tax inspection.”
You know why?
Not because I cannot drive. Because some people in the public sector will not give me a driving license, no mater how well I drive. They expect a bribe first.
Not because my building permission papers are not all right. They will drag my application for months and years till I bribe them.
You want more? My father has cancer. Unless I bribe the doctors, they will let him die like a dog hiding behind bureaucracy. “Either you give me some black money now or your father is queued for a surgery in about 10 months”. What would you do?
Do you think that Greeks don't want this changed? Bring an EU official to supervise every public sector worker with authority. Greeks will welcome you as liberators.
Last but not least
“and for the manipulation of the results of a tax inspection”
Even if you put someone to check the tax collectors, he can take a bribe as well. How can you collect taxes and not bribes for certain people?
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235. At 8:48pm on 03 Mar 2010, Menedemus wrote:
Mickalus @#224
Hi Menedemus
Thanks for your comments and thoughts.
I concur with both of the points you make at the outset of your last posting. I have frequently read of the parallels between the Union as it currently stands, and the manner in which feudal fiefdoms and kingdoms of yore were ruled - certainly outdated. One of the advantages of the current intergovernmental power structures is the security of representation these structures give to smaller states like mine, albeit at the expense of larger states, like yours. To be successful, the introduction of more democracy at EU level would need to reflect this.
Taking account of this, greater democracy could be relatively easily introduced at Commission level with a directly elected Commission. Either individual states return an individual to the Commission, or the Union as a whole votes on a party system as in the European Parliament and a Commission is chosen from Parliament much as Switzerland's cabinet system works. I am aware of the citizen's initiatives brought in under Lisbon trying to bring in such initiatives.
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#238 I thought that the US Constitution set up the Electoral College for exactly the same reason - the elite did not really trust the people to allow them to elect the President directly. But then I suppose the US Constitution was written by people with European ideas, and too many of them French which is why the stuff about separating church and state got in there.
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democracythreat @230.
Great grandma, I think.
Enough. :o)
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@237 @239 WA
I'm listening at this very moment Ludmila Lapina & Nikita Koshelev on Youtube, as recommended.
What a pity that the others bloggers, with a few exceptions maybe, do not understand Russian (and the Russain heart along with it).
Sofia, march 3rd 2010
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MaudDib, @194
"Just a bunch of Yankee carpetbaggers. Whose predecessors had burned everything to the ground. No hell no, I ain't forgetting."
Aha. I knew it! :o)))))
I got myself a Southerner, finally.
The thing is I told Mavrelius ab a year ago that I've got a handsome Confederate flag at home, but he wasn't impressed . :o))))
Stayed even-souled, how to say. :o)
I've got two, for formal occasions, to hang out of the dacha window, depending on the mood. Soviet torn to pieces from a sub (long voyages), with fam. medals and orders, various badges etc. clipped to it, and the Confederate flag, exported from Charleston. When I feel revolutionary :o)))
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Marcus @238
Exactly what I think of my Nation's current political establishment.
We have MPs that have been sitting in 'safe seats' that it would take them to die to have their electorate vote in someone else.
We now have women-only shortlists so that seats may only offer the electorate women to vote for rather than best candidate.
We have total strangers parachuted into 'safe seats' where they can stand for Parliament in a winnable seat where the electorate and the parachuted candidate have nothing in common least of all shared residency.
We now have many unelected Lords from the Upper Chamber of the Westminster Parliament who are employed by the majority Party to hold senior roles in Government including senior Roles of State yet cannot be questioned by scrutiny from the elected Members of Parliament (who perform the valuable role of scrutinising government performance/achievements from the back-benches of the Commons).
And, once elected to power on a Manifesto, it now seems de rigeur for governments to ignore all the electoral promises made, tear up their manifesto and then govern despite rather than on behalf of the electorate.
I would describe the Westminster Parliament as not so much a Dictatorship as a "Rotten Parliament" that has allowed governmemnt of the United Kingdom to become a Meritocarcy displaying rotten attributes such as cronyism, nepotism and cyniscism.
Unfortunately, the Britsh have never been ones for rebellion other than during the English Civil War which actually produced the roots of the current political establishment for Westminster and I doubt that the British have any appetite to change the way they are governed yet again.
No Boston Tea Party and subsequent revolution for us methinks!
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Christos it is impossible to explain to people who live normally.
How much is a driving license bribe in Greece currently?
600 dollars in Russia.
At that I paid for the classes, at the driving school, like a decent person :o))), and attended, for 2 months! (of which 99% of the time is "theory" :o)))) and 18 hrs - "practice" :o)))) Even, passed there the test! They put me into the car at one end of the city, instructor sitting cataleptical beside me on the right side of the front seat, and the next stop was 3 hrs later, at the other end of the city, through whole centre traffic. I think I am talanted. :o) Even if that was done at supersonic speed of 30 km per hrs :o)))))
(All beeped behind me like insane :o)
But the instructor said "It is normally hopeless for females, to look into the front mirror, so simply forget about it. You don't care what's behind you, simply manage your way forward as you can. By the rules, if they bumb at your car from behind - that's their fault. You just mind it
that you don't bump into someone in front."
I think very logical.
But then I didn't go to the police to pass the police test, as couldn't find around 400 dollars fro bribes, and then it became 500, and then 600, and now may be even worse. :o(
:o))))
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@239 WA
russ. “… and bitter tears will be cried, and such kind of life is waiting for you…"
This is what Pelaguea is singing on youtube at this very moment. Pelaguea is a very common Christian name in the countryside, here in the most obscure villages of Bulgaria, pure orthodox name…
Thank you Alice, you are sweetheart. It’s your marvellous contribution to our common fiesta today…
Sofia, Marsh 3rd 2010 (i.e. 132 years from the liberation of Bulgaria)
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Jean Luc, 195:
"My point is that supposed lack of democratic legitimacy can not be traced back to the European level. If this lack does exist it needs to be traced back to the national level. ....... The problem isn't situated therefore at EU level, but at UK level. Only the Uk authorities are competent to organize referendums in the uk (the EU hasn't got this competence, it would be a breach of the Treaties to do otherwise)."
May I suggest, Jean Luc, that you do a bit more research before adding your comments. Jose Manuel Barroso publicly argued against Britain holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty; please see the reference below:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6225710.stm
"If your government promised you a referendum, but then broke this promise, this is again something internal to the UK, completely unrelated to the EU."
So the EU is indifferent to whether member states hold referendums on (and thereby risk setbacks to) treaties that the EU sees as vital? Apologies for the cliché, but what planet are you on? In addition to the reference above, I suggest you consider carefully the "death" of the European Constitution in June 2005. The French and Dutch had just voted No; there then followed a rather messy period in which the European Constitution was quietly buried (only to re-surface later as the Lisbon Treaty). But the EU authorities knew full well that there was an outstanding manifesto commitment by the newly elected British government to hold a referendum on the European Constitution. By allowing the Constitution to die (at least under that name), the EU connived with the British government in a deliberate breach of a manifesto commitment. So much for "completely unrelated to the EU"!
"British .... never ever having done anything constructively in European integration"
Why should the British participate in a goal they largely don't agree with? According to the BBC opinion poll below, a majority of Brits would like to leave the EU, never mind get involved in yet more integration:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/7949104.stm
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ironfranco -
Not for me
Spring will come
Not for me the Don will pour out
And song of ? thatt little bird is pouring out over fields
Not for me O not for me
Not for me
There will come Easter
The kin will gather at the family table
And sweet cherry dark red wine will be poured out
Not for me O not for me
But for me
A piece of lead
It will wasp into white body
And bitter tears will pour out
- That's kind of life awaiting me...
Everybody don't you think it's always worthy to liberate Bulgaria? "over and over again" :o)
- 132 years later you can sing with someone.
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WA;
"So the first bullet, so the first bullet, so the first bullet -
It wounded my horse
And the second bullet, and the second bullet, and the second bullet
Wounded me right into heart..."
WA, you know how these sentimental songs always make me cry like a baby. What a sad thing to happen....to a horse :-)
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Alla Bayanova by the way is Romanian. She immigrated to us, first in 1910 :o))) I think, and then post Perestroyka - again!
Settled in Moscow in Arbat street, Kremlin had decency gave her an apartment, because she sings songs the best around for miles, and then she collected into that her tiny 1-room flat all the homeless cats and dogs in Arbat street vicinity. She can't pass by a homeless fluffy.
She's got lots of "helpers", thankful for the songs Russians coming to cook or shop or to walk the fluffies, fams and admirers but she is 97 it is awful unfair and I don't know what.
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WebAlice, ironfranco, DemocThreat etc.
Some things do not change as much as we may all like to assume.
I was looking back at Ivan Turgenev's tome, 'Fathers and Sons' (Children), 1862, and came across this passage:
It is a conversation between the nihilist proponent Bazarov and Paul Kirsanov the aristocrat; and one passage goes thus, "..The materialism you preach has already been in vogue more than once, and has always proved bankrupt."
Bazarov broke in, "In the first place we don't preach a thing; that's not our way."
"What do you do then?"
"I'll tell you what we do. Not so very long ago we used to say that our officials took bribes, that we had no roads, no commerce, no real justice..."
"So you're denunciators!"
"No, then we surmised that talk, perpetual talk and nothing but talk, about our sores was not worth the effort, that it all led to nothing but vulgarity and doctrinarianism. We saw that our clever fellows, the so-called leading men, weren't worth a hoot in hell, that we were fussing around, talking rubbish about... parliamentarism, trial by jury, and the devil, knows what not, when it was really a question of getting our daily bread, when were stifling under the grossest superstition, when all our stock companies were blowing up, simply because there is a shortage of honest men.."
Some 150 odd years ago and so much material progress and yet hardly a forward step in the minds of men!
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No, she's Bessarabian. Romanian only after Perestroyka, Kishinev.
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@254 cool_brush_work
I totally agree with you. It's one of the many reasons why Turgueneff preferred to stay in London or in Paris where he wrote his novels, kind of "First Love", "Fathers & sons", "Experiences of a Sportsman", etc.
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cool-brush-work @ 254
oj
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No, some things change.
TV morning news presenter.
- I'll be brief; politics - dirty; economy - scary; Olympic games -shame."
:o))
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To: Menedemus post #214
Re: UK constitutional er...stuff.
Menedemus, hi!
Liked your post#214: it's a nice summary. Some important points.
The House of Commons is de-facto superior to the Crown, but de-jure it's definitely the other way around - if the Queen says "no", it doesn't happen. The deal is that the Queen has the unconditional right to say "no"...on the strict condition that she never does. If and when that happens, we will have the mother of all constitutional crises: unelected head-of-state versus indirectly-elected-head-of-government. Ouch...:-(
Other, more fortunate countries have a separation between the executive ("Hey, let's do something") and the legislature ("Yes Mr Executive, we'll let you do that: let's write it down on paper, shall we"). We, er, don't. The UK executive (the Government) is Prime-Minister-plus-Cabinet-plus-some-others. The UK legislature is Parliament - the Houses-of-Lords-and-Commons.
We don't directly elect the UK executive. We do directly elect the UK legislature (let's leave the House of Lords out of this for a moment), they nominate the guy to form the Government, the Queen signs off on their choice, Government promptly ensues.
Hope that helps, regards, viewcode.
Further reading
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_United_Kingdom
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown-in-Parliament
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To: EUpris #227
CC: smroet #211
Re: Parliamentary supremacy.
EUpris, hi! Smroet is exactly right. Everything the EU does has to be ratified by a UK law for it to apply in the UK - parliamentary supremacy, remember? The trick is that, in certain cases, the UK law in question gives the EU a blank cheque. In these cases, the UK has passed a law that goes something like "if the EU says something, and it's properly formatted, then it goes straight into UK law without Parliament needing to get involved again".
When that happens, it appears as if the EU is imposing law on the UK without passing "Go". The UK executive colludes in this appearance ("We can't do anything, it's European law"). But in reality, they rubber-stamped it before it happened.
I keep saying this, but I'll say it again. The European Union is not imposed on the peoples of the European Union by the EU institutions. The European Union is imposed on the peoples of the European Union by their own governments.
Regards, viewcode.
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Generalissimo and other admirers of a-capella. It is not scientific, to listen to Not For Me when a girl is singing even if that's Pelageua.
That's why she's singing "Not For You" :o))
Not For Me etc. tra la la la
And girly heart will beat anew -
O not for me that's not for me.
a scientific approach is men's choir a-capella, heavy. FATUM1963 in you tube, not far from the top, men's choir in colour, 3:17
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To: Menedemus post #235.
Re: More UK constitutional er...stuff.
Menedemus, hi. In your post#235, you said "...the EU provides the UK Parliament with an easy scapegoat for any unpalatable legislation that the UK Parliament enacts. The alternative...is that the UK Westminster MPs think they know what is best...and do not trust the electorate to make...the right decision..."
Bingo! Both points are correct.
All I need now is for 62,999,998 other people to work it out...;-)
Regards, viewcode.
PS: now that you've outlined what the problem is, would you agree that the solution is a written UK constitution to limit what the UK government can and cannot do without popular consent?
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@251 @261 WA
"Everybody don't you think it's always worthy to liberate Bulgaria? "over and over again" :o) 132 years later you can sing with someone."
Yes it is worth singing it, say, in the company of a nice girl by the Neva, say, on the Vassilevskij Island... though the bloodshed is no more needed. Bulgaria is still relatively independent ... as long as it is possible to be independent within te EU borders...
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To: Mickalus post#224.
CC: Menedemus post#214.
Re: So why won't the UK leave the EU.
Mickalus, hi! In your post#224 of 7:34pm on 03 Mar 2010, you wrote:
"...Menedemus - my thanks for your post. So to distill, would you agree that the UK remains a member of the EU because successive Parliaments will it, in spite of what your posts suggest the public feel about the EU...Why do you think this might be?"
Good question. It's a combination of the UK voting system (FPTP) plus parliamentary supremacy plus the limits of countries in the real world plus the reality of what the EU is. Let's talk you though it.
The UK voting system is first-past-the-post (FPTP). A side-effect of FPTP is that it leads to a small number of large parties and a winner-takes-all government. So the leader of a political party, to gain power, must construct a broad-church party to achieve critical mass. So he has to make a lot of promises to a lot of people.
OK, so a putative young, idealistic party leader constructs a broad coalition and goes into an election. At that point, his duties are to the electorate ("Vote us in and I'll give you lots of stuff, promise")
His party wins, and suddenly he's Prime Minister with a working majority. Way-hey! And, because of parliamentary supremacy he can legally do anything, and he's got lots of promises to keep.
But he's got a problem: with great parliamentary-supremacy comes great responsibility, Peter Parker...er, Prime Minister (sorry). It's the UK: the public blames the UK executive for everything. So suddenly, he's responsible for everything. His duties are now not just to the electorate, now he has a duty to the economy, and a duty to the State. Because he's now responsible for the economy and, under the UK's unwritten constitution, he's the de-facto head of state as well as the de-jure head of government.
But it's the real world: legally he's all-powerful but actually, he's the head of government of a small rainy island with not much stuff. America has all the aircraft carriers, Russia has all the gas, the Middle East has all the oil, Africa has all the people, China builds all the stuff, and the markets have all the money. So he's got a lot of responsibilities but not a lot of money or power. Ooops.
So to get stuff, he has to trade. To get, he has to give.
Other European countries have the same problem, and they've dealt with it by building something called the "EU": a sort of trade-union for countries. By acting together, they can sort out trade between themselves and get more stuff from other countries by negotiating as a bloc. Result! So our Prime Minister can get gas, oil, or uranium for power stations, trade to employ his electorate, a common legal framework to enable that trade, lots of immigrants to work cheaply to grow that trade, and a concept that the other European countries will carry on with the whole trade-and-rule-of-law thing instead of going ape and trying to invade each other like they otherwise do every couple of decades. So stacks of jelly and ice-cream all round. Part-aaay!
But some of those arrangements are unpopular with the electorate, who think he's all-powerful and can't understand why, you know, he can't just make stuff happen.
So he comes back and goes "Hey, look what I got! Lots of good stuff! Aren't I clever! Oh, incidentally, the EU made me do other stuff. Naughty EU, bash it with sticks". He's got his fingers crossed behind his back, but we're happy, he's happy, life goes on.
And that's why the UK electorate deprecate EU membership, but the UK executive won't leave.
It would be nice if our young, idealistic party leader said the adult thing, which is "It's a big, dangerous world. There are armies that can kill us, diseases that can kill us, countries that want to kill us, and we're running out of working antibiotics, oil, gas, uranium, everything. To keep you alive and get you enough stuff and peace to form families and raise your children, I had to compromise. You don't like it, I don't like it, but that's life. And seeing that for the past fifteen hundred years European history has been a succession of plagues, monarchies, dictatorships, massive wars, a continental-sized charnel house filled to bursting with blood and bone and tears, whereas now you have peace, democracy, law, trade, iPods, more telly than you can watch, more Internet than you can process, and all you can find to moan about is bendy bananas, then I think that's a pretty good deal. SO STOP COMPLAINING, OK!!!!
But that involves him and us acting like adults. So he won't.
Regards, viewcode.
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Yo Alice
I confess I am a southerner. We lost the war and when you loose you have to accept what the winners say. However, I refuse. If the FBI/CIA come calling I will refer them to you. You are of course a radical on everybody's acreen. When you were off to your dacha I was worried senseless. What has happened to my Alice? I don't understand all I know about your country or about you, but I hope you live forever........
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WA;
"But for me
A piece of lead
It will wasp into white body
And bitter tears will pour out
- That's kind of life awaiting me..."
Are you sure you don't have any Sicilian blood in you? Not much though. Sicilians don't strike me as being so sentimental and melancholy. They enjoy life to the fullest for the moment every moment however brief it may turn out to be.
I know it's probably the wrong time of year but perhaps Easter would be appropriate and is coming soon. You should go to hear a live performance of Rachmaninoff Vespers which is sung a capella by a mens chorus. Perhaps that will cheer you up. You are taking this figure skating thing much too hard. I told you your preoccupation with it was dangerous and would lead you to be very unhappy over the result. There's more to life than jumping a triple toe loop and landing on your feet instead of your keister. Those who fly over the snow on an iron mortar to a dacha on fowls leges with a clock in its stomach aren't supposed to shed tears.
How about this one?
http://folliesofeurope.com/album/UK%20Ireland/slides/DACHA%20l.jpg
or this one;
http://www.archphoto.it/wp-content/ap/uploads/foto/sternfeld/gesundheit.jpg
or this;
http://ullam.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/05/16/13.jpg
but not this;
http://www.masterandmargarita.eu/images/09context/datsjaperedelkino.jpg
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Yo MaudDib :o)
I hope to never fail your expectations, well, at least in some things :o)
Remember you wrote @169 "So you mossed into the "international ice skating blog". I bet it will never be the same. Kinda like in American western where the gunslinger comes to town."
It is going well; even their site moderator got out and writes to me directly. Here
"Not bad for 24-48 hours.....but let me tell you a few things I've learned in 14 years around here -
bla bla bla :o))))
Absent of any evidence, discussion of block judging and conspiracies is asking for trouble bla bla bla :o))) a result of fans. We had a Sasha Cohen problem, and now this Plushenko thing :o)))))))
Ends up with "We're not trying to be everything to everyone, because that is impossible. Boring, technical and plain vanilla is what we are here."
I interpreted the last one as a desperate attempt to camouflage an awful intersting place as an un-attractive one :o))))
And what have I done, just explained them how they should urgently improve themselves. Just started to, in fact. Well, may be the style was not creepy careful approaching enough, thought of several but settled in the simple understandable format "Mavrelius speaks about Europe".
MaudDib other news is we got the ship. Mistral, yesterday. 4. Not so good as it was planned, 1 built in France 3 in Russia, but 2 in France 2 in Russia but then Medvedev is in France formal visit and all he had to be sweet and surrender something.
To me the acquisition , reminds me of.. don't even know. this square chunk on water (un-beautiful by looks to say the least. no poetry in the outline generalissimo knows what I mean) but I guess for non-shipbuilders in Russia but the ones who wanted to buy it it's like, like?
Like tea-cup of Alexander Grin. Writer beg 20th century you wouldn't have met him :o) He was poor fancied a porcelain cup in a shop outer that window. Was enchanted by the outlines :o)))) (oj. anyway) by the flowers on it, whatever. Got hired as a sailor on a ship in the Black Sea. Was ? curling? doing curling? scrubbing the deck there with a broom and all dirty work, climbed up and down those masts, hard work, just May-Oct :o)))) got money for the cup. (they didn't pay much back then on small dirty poor trade ships) (in fact no body wanted to work there on own will, he was about the only one :o)))
Well, went same bare-footed to the dear shop, got his treasure. But as he still had to eat something returned back to the ship. Cherished his tea-cup (awful beautiful it was, real art), then, naturally, broke it, then cherished the bits and pieces in a cloth for couple of two years more :o))))) Meanwhile lept writing beauuutiful novels (having only that one cup for orientation, as life around was dirty, low, base, and how to say, not many soul-flying folks' observed around. Hard life no poets.
So somehow this Mistral purchase reminds me of the pattern though I am not sure the Defence minister is able to come with a new war and peace after he gets it.
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Anyone who buys anything engineered and built in France gets exactly what they deserve.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2010/03/03/Russia-one-step-closer-to-buying-French-warship/UPI-69831267634198/
Here's an American slang word you might not know that describes French built anything; "kluge" as in an expression of exasperation; What a kluge that thing is.
Here's one explanation, I'm sure you'll find plenty more
http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/kluge
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MA, the first one is very inviting. Someone has been real in you don't have that word "craving for Motherland" , and must be in hard circumstances had to combine a dacha and a churchh! :o))) that's church domes, FYI, you don't incorporate them into dacha-s. Normally.
The 2nd one was too heavy an attempt.
The 3rd one is shining in snow and all; approved.
The 4th one of course not.
__________
Mavrelius, "sentimental", it's not this. Are, by the way, for you all feelings "sentimental"? Then of course all sentiments LOL will turn out "sentimental". There are heaps of them, FYI, besides open happy patriotism :o))))
"Un-happy patriotism", for example :o))))
That "native place craving for" specific Russian condition.
OK, leaving dear Motherlands to themselves, suppose it's a party and you drank something. Don't know what you are doing Russians start asking each other "DDDdo you understand me?" :o) Like mad. Perfect understanding - immediate broadcast wireless - zip - you should be able to understand each other - that's the ideal condition to be striving for as life ideal. Like as you have dogs you understand by the face when wants to drink when what when wouldnt mind this ...or that
That's our nirvana. Granted lots of singing helps. How to explain feelings? By words, you mean? :o)))) Anyway I think that's universal.
As to sad songs - people at a party here tend to focus on universal problems, which brings in philosophical angles, invariably, and when you look at this woorld, philosophically, MA, realistically - what's goid about it?
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Look on the bright side. You could build a water tight curb around the perimeter of the flight decks of those Mistrals, fill them with water, and when they ice over in the Arctic Sea the skaters could practice on them. Or they could just go on Royal Caribbean Cruise ships instead where all of the newer ones already have ice skating rinks. Ice skating at sea, now that must be a challenge especially in rough weather.
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The day after a most important decision by the Greek government the Greek contributors are gone - so far - and we are left with the ususal suspects.
CornwallCoastPath in #250
Your statistics gives rise to the following question: Are the British voters not capable of taking care of their interests?
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@ EU PRISONER
Re "EUpris: I was living in Germany at the time. I have read that every household got a pamphlet saying tha any loss of sovereignty would be limited. As I say, I wasn't there so I didn't get one. However the promises that we were supposedly made are consistent with the lies the British people have been told repeatedly for about forty years. So I am inclined to believe that it was so"
So you are saying what? Your own government lied to you about the substance of a treaty it signed? That tells you what about who?
On a sidenote, if people took such a decision based on a pamphlet instead of reading the real treaty, that was neglective on their part. Democracy isn't a free gift, you need to do efforts to make it meaningful. Efforts means reading manifesto's (general elections) and properly informing yourself (referendums).
Re "EUpris: No they most definitely duid not! It was 1975 ad the rotten thing was not called the "EU" then but either the Common Market or the EEC."
Of course they did. Parliamentary sovereignty: something the UK itself has made up (no popular sovereignty in the UK!).
Re "I doubt if you really know that. I certainly don't. What I can tell you is that I moved to Germany in 1972 and the Germans certainly wanted the UK in."
It's common knowledge. The UK wasn't interested in the EEC in 1958 because it was too supranational (no way the Great UK would ever give up any sovereignty right?). So the UK founded the EFTA in 1959. This was a big failure compared to the EEC, thus the UK applied for EEC membership in 1961. By then De Gaulle was president in France and twice (!) refused the UK membership of the EEC. By 1969 De Gaulle had left and at last the UK leaders could have their country joined by 1973 (with sore knees from begging a decade ;))
Re "Other Common Market governments must have known that the British people were being lied to but did nothing of which I am aware to point out to them what the real agenda was."
Hold on? What do you want? Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy going to London and forcing the British PM to organize a referendum in the UK? You would not find THAT a breach of your national sovereignty?!
Re "Please, please, please throw us out. Representative democracy isn't working."
This is quite pathetic isn't it? Your country and government is a joke if you need other countries to kick you out of a Union you yourself did not want to be part of in the first place, but yet voted to be member.
Re "We have paid billions to this sick, megalomaniac rubbish"
Not enough mate. Through the British rebate, the UK again demanded and still demands a special position. As if somehow it is above the other members. (no need for me to mention the numerous opt outs the British always demand and the slow pace of integration in the 90's under major..)
Re "Why would we do anything constructive in European integration when"
Because you agreed to a Treaty stating 'ever closer union'.
@ 213. At 6:19pm on 03 Mar 2010, Menedemus
Nice to see we have agreement on that point. The discussion on the (un)democratic workings of the EU institutions themselves is indeed another question.
@ COOL BRUSH WORK
Re "However, that is not quite the whole story: If the EU is the 'democratic' institution and practitioner of Human Rights it lays claim to be then clearly Brussels too has a part to play in whether or not the UK/England population will have a voice in their Political-Social-Judicial set-up. It simply does not cover or sustain the present situation for the EU and 'pro-EU' lobbyists to point to the term "..ever closer union.." in 1975 as if that applies for time immemorial.
Since when did EUropean Citizens feel obliged to uphold Laws and Regulations agreed decades ago pertaining to their Rights & Responsibilities simply because previous generations and governments felt it correct at the time - - if that were the case then Capital Punishment, Ban on Homosexuality, Unequal Pay etc. would still be on the Staute Books - - clearly the EU has felt able to intervene in what it claims is the interest of Citizens, however, Brussels denies any involvment in the most fundamental Human Right, that of being able to decide the 'political' future of a People. The EU has actively colluded in denying the UK/England Citizens their Political Free-will."
Cool brush work! Did something hit your head? You do know that you are asking for more powers to be given to the EU? You do know that you are contradiction yourself here? You said in a previous topic that the ECJ has the power to annul a national referendum on membership (which it hasn't and which I proved to you) and therefore has TOO MUCH power. Now you are in effect pleading for such a situation where the EU institutions can force member states to hold referendums (which also implies the competence to scrutinize such referendums). Thus you recoqnize that the EU doesn't have these powers now (unlike what you wrote before), but that the EU should have these powers.
This makes me wonder why you would plead for more powers (and indeed very intrusive powers) to be given to institutions you yourself have labeled as undemocratic, corrupt, venal etc.
Perhaps you should just accept that it is your own government and parliament denying you what you want.
Re "I readily voted 'Yes' in 1975 to the EEC: As a graduate & member of HM Forces I believe I had a fair idea of how the politics was turning then; at no time did any literature on the Membership Referendum state that 'ever closer union' was a preamble to the evolution of a EUropean Union. On the contrary, the 'pro-EU' literature and newspapers such as the Mirror, Guardian ran full page advertisements prominently pointing to a need to avoid 'future wars' and to the benefits of Low Trade Tariffs & Cross-border economic links. So far as I recall there was only scant mention of the 'political' hope for a EUropean Parliament to bring more 'democracy' to the enlarged EU; and, there was even less referral to any form of 'political union' which ALL 3 main Party Leaders in speeches made clear was NOT on the agenda (infact at my German base barracks they showed a Film in which 'sovereignty for the UK Parliament' was a key feature - - it being pointed out British Soldiers would only ever be under UK&NATO Command as HM Forces could never be subject of orders issued by a EUropean Economic Community."
And if you sign a contract do you need read the contract? I hope you do! Just as you should have read the Treaty before casting your vote in the referendum. Concerning the pro-EEC newspapers: this doesn't quite surprise me. The british never really understood the whole project, that is why to this day they are a marginal force in the EU. However, make no mistake about: the EEC always had a political objective as recognized by the founding fathers, Monnet, Schumann, Spaak, adenhauer etc.
@ CornwallCoastPath
Re "May I suggest, Jean Luc, that you do a bit more research before adding your comments. Jose Manuel Barroso publicly argued against Britain holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty; please see the reference below:"
So he gave his opinion? He has no competence to decide this. He could stand on his head if he wanted, the choice was up to the UK government.
Re "Why should the British participate in a goal they largely don't agree with? According to the BBC opinion poll below, a majority of Brits would like to leave the EU, never mind get involved in yet more integration:"
The idea is really simple mate. You can join the club or stay outside. No one forces you either way. If you join, you have to behave according to the statutes of the club (the treaty). These state 'ever closer union', which implies an obligation on the part of the members to cooperate constructively towards ever closer union. If you didn't want this, you shouldn't have joined in the first place, if you don't want this, you should leave. No one has forced you, no one will force you.
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Jukka_Rohilla
Re #225 & "...some old towns in north UK.."
At first reading I thought there was a lot of truth in your observation that a 'London-centric' policy had contributed to the support for Scottish independence.
It seemed likely Scotland's Capital City has suffered from lack of J_R's "..regional.." resources development (compared to Germany etc.).
London most certainly dominates the UK/England (1 in 5 of population; generates 1 in 4 of every pound earned; seat of political-judicial-cultural inheritance etc.): No doubt it has played its part in the antipathy that has developed post-WW2 within the National 'union' Nations of the UK.
Then I thought a bit more and recalled J_R never has been to Britain and has shown an alarming tendency to write things in black & white when we all know no such matter exists in Human affairs!
It turns out the following is nearer the reality of London - Edinburgh relation/policies over the last 20+ years:
1) Edinburgh International Airport is 30 mins from the City which has regular flights to London, New York, Paris... and even Helsinki.
2) Edinburgh can be reached by 8 hour Motorway drive up the A1(M) from London - - basically a M1 to M8 drive.
3) Edinburgh is served by ScotRail which has Trains to/from London every 2 hours and Virgin Rail runs an overnight Sleeper service.
4) Edinburgh International Military Tattoo - - is the annual cultural highlight - - World renowned with contributions from all corners of the earth, though the emphasis on 'military' has moved toward more broadstream spectacular displays.
5) Edinburgh has been the site of the Scotland Parliament for over a decade.
6) Edinburgh & indeed Scotland has and is rightly proud of its own completely independent Police-Judiciary/Legal-Education-Civil Service-systems.
7) Edinburgh for Scotland has the power to Tax Raising/Public Spending etc.
8) Edinburgh University ranks among the top 50 in the World
9) Edinburgh Castle is a superb example of Historic Scotland; just as modern Edinburgh has some of the best Financial-Economic centres (RBS) etc. that do own/control substantial interests 'south' of the border and across the World.
Many of the above (apart from Government) can also be shown for Glasgow.
For "..some old towns in north UK.." THAT IS a very substantial 'living centre' which appears to me as 'unique specialisation' within their 'Regions'.
So, once again J_R, we have the obvious point whilst you imagine how things are the reality on the ground is wholly different. Of course you are not alone in these misapprehensions about the UK/England. Many foreign contributors who write on these Blogs give the impression they too believe London is the United Kingdom of 60,000,000 Citizens and could not be more wide of the mark.
I've regularly pointed out that labelling 'anti-EU' Britons as Mail, Sun readers etc. or hankering after 'lost empire' completely overlooks the fact 1 in 8 British do not have English as their first language and the multi-cultural aspect of the UK in ALL 4 'Union Nations' is substantial.
As I said earlier, London undoubtedly dominates, and as the UK is so small and compact by comparison with Germany, France, Sweden, Spain, Finland etc. the UK Capital City does have that additionally 'Greater London' impact on everything - - nonetheless, the 'regions' whether actual 'Union Nations' or sub-divisions are quite clearly delineated - - as evidenced if you we were to try to tell a Highlander, Liverpudlian, Glaswegian, Cornwallite, Brummie, Kentish, Glyndwr, Tynesider, Mancunian, Ulster person etc. that London was the centre of their lives! WHOOPS, DUCK!!!
That is not to say the cause of Scottish, Welsh, Irish independence is not directly linked to the London-syndrome: The basic factor is that post-WW2 the UK as a 'political' entity became more powerful upto the end of the Thatcher era (Conservative Government policy towards the 3 Union Nations substantially contributed to the push for 'devolution'), however, post 1990 that London-centricity 'political' outlook diminished combined with the evolutionary contrast London-England is seen as less and less relevant to a modern World British Isles of easy travel-communication-consumerism-property/ownership etc.
Today, there is very little justification for a UK in the traditional sense of defending/developing the Islands & its various Peoples.
Though quite why a fully devolved, independent Scotland, N.Ireland or Wales would want to leave a 'union' of 4 and leap directly into a nonentity regional existence of 27, 28, 29+ Brussels-EU is something only those north, west & north-west of England can explain for themselves?
I would decribe it as Political-Cultural Suicide for each National grouping: A tragedy for the Citizens after having struggled so long to get out from under their perception of an English-London yoke. However, that is the choice independent Nations are able to make.
My wish is that England and the English - - the only UK National grouping WITHOUT their own NATIONAL Parliament - - once free of the constraints of the UK etc. are given that Right & Responsibility of determining via the Ballot box their own 'Political' future.
I wish them ALL well whatever course of action they choose.
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Mathiasen
Re #271
You, being more 'suspect' than most!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
RE: "Because you agreed to a Treaty stating 'ever closer union'.
I'm sorry but Britons, Germans, Poles, etc., were not even allowed to have a referedum on the EUSSR Consti...errr... Treaty.
And Germans are demanding louder andd louder the return to their beloved Deutsch Mark.
P.S. Please remind me. Wasn't euro supposed to replace US$ as and international reserve currency?
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Re #272
As per my #204 and DemocThreat #185:
The adjectival (?) word 'Ditto' suffices in reply.
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Re #119 "2010 Canada - ELEVENTH (don't have so capital letters). Just 15 medals of which only 3 are medals.
That's not inflation or some money or some crap. That's serious, in all Russians' opinion."
Well, heads are already rolling in Mother Russia.
But that's not the topic of this blog.
Have you checked what's been hapening with Russian ruble's exchange rate in the last couple of years?
And with Russian GDP?
Particularly in the most recent past?
And what will inevitably happen to it as prices of both OIL&GAS go down?
No, somehow I don't think vodka export alone will do it.
Personally, I'd rather be in Greece when proverbial s..t hits the fan.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8548994.stm
For those ho claim that the "EU" could not have intervened in the UK in the natter of the referendum we were promised:
"The EU's top court says Italy breached an EU directive on waste disposal by allowing piles of rubbish to litter the streets of Naples in 2007-2008.
The directive became law in Italy in 2006, but the European Court of Justice says the waste disposal sites in the Naples area were inadequate.
The European Commission brought the case against Italy, which must now comply with the court's judgement.
The court says the piles of rubbish endangered health and the environment.
Failure to comply with the judgement could lead to a hefty fine for Italy. ..."
Thee "EU" has no inhibitions about interfering in the internal affairs of "member states" or indeed of states outside the "EU".
It could and should have demanded that the people of the UK be given the referendum they were promised on the new treaty.
I think that it is reasonable to assume that the financial crisis in the "EU" could have been partly caused by the sick, antidemocratic behaviour of the "EU" because it showed the world that the "EU" is a real Grade A crock of nasty and that there would inevitably be trouble.
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@powermeerkat
Re "I'm sorry but Britons, Germans, Poles, etc., were not even allowed to have a referedum on the EUSSR Consti...errr... Treaty.
And Germans are demanding louder andd louder the return to their beloved Deutsch Mark.
P.S. Please remind me. Wasn't euro supposed to replace US$ as and international reserve currency?"
If they were not allowed a referendum, they should have asked their own government. In international law, treaties are concluded by states, states ratify these treaties according to their internal constitutional law. Therefore from an international law perspective, the question on referendum is irrelevant as it is a pure national matter.
But let's stay correct, the British had a referendum in 1975, the Poles in 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2003)
And the Euro was not really supposed to replace the dollar. Although as the euro is backed by the largest trading bloc on earth, it is inevitable it will eventually (together with the Yuan) undermine the dollar dominance and replace it (or substitute it for a basket of currencies: dollar, euro, Yuan, Yen)
@ COOL BRUSH WORK
Re "As per my #204 and DemocThreat #185:
The adjectival (?) word 'Ditto' suffices in reply."
Adverb is what you are looking for.
And no need to clarify it. I know that you would use any and every excuse not to debate on substance.
This is probably because you (like a lot of eurosceptics) have such good arguments that are incredibly hard to refute!
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272. At 08:52am on 04 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote:
"... @ EU PRISONER
So you are saying what? Your own government lied to you about the substance of a treaty it signed? ..."
EUpris: YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Further: It is long time since we joined the Common Market so I cannot remember every TV programme on the subject. I am pretty confident that the BBC "lied by omission" in that they did not tell us the full story. I can answer your other points, but the sun is shining at the moment and I have other things to do. I might get back to them later.
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@267 WA
Once again I allow myself to remind you that Alexandre Grin is virtually unknown to the West. The novels “The golden chain”, “The scarlet sails”, “The shining peace”, etc. cannot be classified even as a science fiction. They are rather fantastic, rather marvelous, like fairytales for adult people. They are difficult to be translated in English unless the interpreter is a bloody Russian who is in very good command of the English. You waste your time when you refer to Grin. Nobody here has the least knowledge about him.
Speaking of Grin, I take the opportunity to narrate a funny episode of the cold war. It was in the early spring of 1969 or in 1970 (I can not recollect the exact period). I was still a young midshipman of the navy which (under the terms of the Warsaw pact) was an integral part of the Soviet Black Sea fleet. I remember that a task force of two American destroyers entered the Black sea on a reconnaissance mission. Our fleet was put immediately on full alert and the Admiralty ordered our escort vessel “Smeli” to intercept the Yankees just outside of our territorial waters, I mean by the Rezovska river estuary (i.e. several tens of sea miles to the north of the Bosphorous). It was a funny game. Our old craft (“Riga” class escort vessel, project 50) was not able to make more than 25-26 knots, while the Americans would easily reach more then 30 in 10 minutes’ run. Needless to say, we were also on full alert, I mean guns and torpedo launchers charged, etc. You would ask me how we managed to escort them all the time while being so slow. Well, here comes the funny part of the story. The Americans would stop from time to time thus permitting us to catch up with them!
After 18 hours of ridiculous chase, at rough seas and under 5 degrees frost, we reached the Odessa bay (Ceausescu, the Romanian president of that time did not want to take part in the resistance to the “American provocative mission” thus leaving us alone). The next day, I was still keeping my night watch when I distinguished through the morning fog the flagship of the Russian squadron, several cables just ahead of us. The Russians signalled through the flash semaphore: “Hvatit bratsi, mojno ouyti” (russ.”It’s enough brothers, you may go home”). You may imagine what happened next. (The Americans left the Black sea the same day). The cold war would give birth here to such dangerous and ridiculous (at times) games, kind of cat & mouse, at least once a year.
P.S.: we would call at Sevastopol nr.13 repair yeard twice a year (for docking & repairing). I still consider Sevastopol as if it were my native city (just like Piter).
Sofia, March 4th 2010 Generalissimo
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@EU PRISONER
Re "For those ho claim that the "EU" could not have intervened in the UK in the natter of the referendum we were promised:
"The EU's top court says Italy breached an EU directive on waste disposal by allowing piles of rubbish to litter the streets of Naples in 2007-2008.
The directive became law in Italy in 2006, but the European Court of Justice says the waste disposal sites in the Naples area were inadequate.
The European Commission brought the case against Italy, which must now comply with the court's judgement.
The court says the piles of rubbish endangered health and the environment.
Failure to comply with the judgement could lead to a hefty fine for Italy. ..."
Thee "EU" has no inhibitions about interfering in the internal affairs of "member states" or indeed of states outside the "EU".
It could and should have demanded that the people of the UK be given the referendum they were promised on the new treaty.
I think that it is reasonable to assume that the financial crisis in the "EU" could have been partly caused by the sick, antidemocratic behaviour of the "EU" because it showed the world that the "EU" is a real Grade A crock of nasty and that there would inevitably be trouble."
You really shouldn't comment on ECJ rulings without having knowledge of the basics of EU law.
Than again, the BBC (and other media) have a very simplified way of reporting these things.
What probably has happened?
Through the directive, there is an 'obligation de resultat' on the member states, to achieve a given objective laid down in the directive. There is a certain period that the Member states can use to achieve this. After this period the result should be there and the Commission can check on this. If the result isn't there, it can go to the ECJ.
Streets littered with tons of garbage was probably contrary to the objective of the waste directive. Therefore the ECJ has ruled that Italy did not respect it's obligations under EU law.
That's it.
I fail to see how you could ever define this as an 'internal affair', since there was a clear EU obligation, to which the ECJ will also have refered in it's ruling.
Now tell me how the ECJ can rule against a member state and order it to hold a referendum (i.e. show me the legal base in primary or secondary EU law that creates the obligation on the part of the member states to ratify EU treatis using popular referendums).
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@267 WA
I clean forgot about the novel "The running girl on the waves". On the half way between Sympheropol and Feodossia there was a small silver monument representing a small girl running really on the sea surface. This is exactly where Grin was berried. I wonder whether the silver is still there...
(At times, I use to ask myself: what were his fantastic novels for and how did he manage to write them? No answer. One thing is sure, he's immortal, just like Russia is)
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@EUprisoner209456731
Your gov and media seem very corrupt to me then!
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Oh dear, oh dear!
Fell for it, hook, line, sinker...
Quite literally 'endorsed' the 'aforesaid'..
Stands alone as Noun & Verb.
There's none so limited as those that 'know' all!
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powermeerkat, @ 278.
"Have you checked... etc.
You're like our Echo of Moscow radio wave who says blast those Olympics who cares the thing is we are all ill and dying out forget about Olympics who cares.
No, I didn't check out neither. and don't think vodka export will save us. and yes it is far better to be in Greece (except their unbearable climate conditions :o)
What to say, yes.
But with the appeal to worry about Russian economy I think it's how to say a mis-placed appeal. I can't do as Mavrelius says "notting", and the majority here - we can't. No handles.
Silly, of course. "majority" and "no handles".
Well, may be we can do, something, after all.
But to worry whether Russia is rich or poor, oil prices up down excuse me. I absolutely refuse to be concerned. 70% here stay poor - whether Russia is rich or poor. If we will get rich - it's not for us.
Now, more realistic scenario, suppose "we" get poor. Those oil prices or whatever. And? Pensions are nearly equal apartment bills. Well, may be 20 dollars are left, in the margin. They can't increase bills payment to the state for them to be higher than pensions. The max they can rob more, for state monopolies gas heating water electricity etc. is 20 dollars.
Then, salaries. say, 400-500 dollars a month. private sector everywhere.
Suppose the private sector (un-controlled by "minimum wage per hour" or non-existent trade-unions or, basically, anything) says hard times we'll pay 300 dollars a month.
As matters stand, for these 400-500 dollars a month salary there is a newspaper weekly, a magazine in St. Petersburg - 68,000 vacancies.
For nobody wants to work for that money.
With 300 dollars - there will be 250,000 vacancies. There aren't people left enough, simply. They can't reduce salaries down below this pathetic as it is a joke pay.
Suppose they will finance medical service less. Who cares? I've got 2 teeth un-fixed since summer (must be my head will fall off one of these days :o))) for eating antibiotics and pain-killers from time to time when teeth get way to worrysome :o) For a private clinic I can't get together 6-7 hundred dollars for 2 teeth, in the state one they can't help me. The state clinic can close up entirely, as far as I am concerned. Then, my asthma inhalers I buy myself, from germany, because what they give here FOC I suffocate on them. I haven't had a single help in terms of health from state sector as far as I remember for 25 years. Well, may be an x-ray once, for an ankle stretch or something.
They are useless, the state sector.
So what can happen, on earth? Will they close the subway or, like, what?
By all looks we'vve got nothing to lose in terms of "economy", crisis un-crisis fat years it's all the same.
So, to worry for Russian economy - three ha ha. For you your economies matter or are meaningful somehow.
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I mean, powermeerkat, to worry for it, on top! it's enough it's bad. To worry for it, too much honour for it.
________
Mavrelius, with the idea of a skating rink on deck Mistral.
Ingenious. Congenial.
May be that's what they bought it for, Sochi, you know. If they didn't - they will arrive to that conclusion anyway shortly.
France will be able to have their "House" on board parked Mistral. Surely there'll be ships "parked" along the Sochi embankment. And they are making the shore, how to say, stretched up, into the sea, various artificial islands being built up at sea, something beautiful (if we won't ran out of money, like an entertainment and a hotel centre on water).
So if we ran out of money - a couple of Mistrals side by side will be invaluable. And overall they will be new and white and shiny quite an entertainment and a decoration.
By the way, heard suggestions :o)))) re various accommodations possible, for foreign delegations :o)))) I am afraid the Russian jokes site thinks along the line "and if anything - Americans can be housed in Georgia :o)))) "Sweden - in Daghestan " :o))) and, like, various suggestions re Sochi neighbouring mozaic of regions on the sides.
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generalissimo, may be we were singing a little bit too much yesterday :o) You told the story here before :o), and no, I haven't missed it, how could I? I just don't know what to say about this annoying 5 knots difference :o) as to Sevastopol, you should know the latest abbreviation: SevaXXL. Like the man's name - Seva, very tall, size XXL, as Seva-s-topol, literally "size poplar".
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Can the eurozone fix Greece? Perhaps the question should be asked the other way around. Can Greece fix the eurozone and the EU? Greece displays Europe's dilemma in a microcosm. It's hardly Europe's alone but it does demonstrate a long standing irrationality, a refusal to face facts and to take action to avoid the dire consequences of living far beyond one's means for a long long time.
Europe's basic problem is that it lives a luxurious lifestyle of high wages and lavish social benefits it can't afford based on the value of what it produces. Nobody else in the world can either. In short it has spent itself bankrupt. This started in Western Europe because it was in America's strategic interest during the cold war to use part of its own wealth to subsidize Europe in many ways. Tax incentives for large American corporations to invest there, easy access to the huge and rich American market with one way trade agreements that allowed European nations to protect their own domestic markets. Anerica paying for Europe's military defense. In short, Europe was given a huge advantage to keep it from falling into the Communist sphere it was so intellectually attracted to. There must be a certain fascination with hell. Failing to recognize this, Europeans actually beleived they had done it all on their own, that they are smarter, better than other people around the world. So when the cold war was over and "globalization" leveled the playing field to a degree, Europe continued on its spending way financing the difference between what it earned and what it spent on itself through borrowing. Now the size of the debt has piled so high and the disparity between its income and debt so large that this is becoming impossible. The financial crisis precipitated by reckless policies in the US and the acquisition of Eastern European countries that were also bankrupt into the EU only accelerated the inevitable day of reckoning, it was coming sooner or later anyway. So here is Europe in a state where it is at a competitive disadvantage in virtually every economic sector, where it could not compete even if markets return to normal, where its vast bureaucracies, regulations, and high taxes to sustain its social safety net are crushingly oppressive to private business which it is suspicious of and disdains anyway, and where all of the demographic ingredients for a social time bomb to explode have been assembled and the fuse lit. Now we're at the point where something has to give. Two choices remain. The EU lets Greece default and risks rapid collapse of its entire economic structure or it prints money to pay Greece's debts depreciating the value of the Euro and learning to live at a lower standard of living. And unless the EU changes the other factors that made it uncompetitive, that standard will continue to go down indefinitely.
I'm not saying that the US and Japan aren't headed down the same path. But for different and complex reasons, Japan, and especially they US are much further away from their boat going over the falls than Europe's is. They will also have to change but the circumstances have not reached the same crisis state that is upon Europe yet. Greece is a symptom of what is wrong with Europe, not a cause. In fixing Greece's problem, Europe should take a much harder look at itself and understand where it really is, not where it imagines itself to be. The shock however may kill it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#213 with rubber-stamp approval of a Parliament
uh-huh, look at the way they rubber-stamp the SWIFT agreement or Rumiana Jeleva appointment as commissioner. :p
#235 It is very easy for British MPs to blame the EU when, in fact, much of the UK Westminster Parliament legislation is merely redefining practices already in place within the UK - the fact is that the rest of the EU Nations are far more laissez faire about implementing EU Directives which just highlights the difference between the over-legislated British and their more laidback european neighbours across the English Channel.
Let's take a look at the latest [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]Internal Market Scoreboard (PDF file) to see if your statement is true... hmmm... Nope! In fact the UK is nowhere near the top country: UK is neither the fastest country at implementing EU direct nor does the UK have the least amount infringement cases (due to incorrectly implementing EU directives). I truly have no idea who started this silly myth... oh wait I do. Those silly British tabloids/papers, I guess if you repeat the same lie all the time it must be true.
I'll admit though this is just Internal Market directives (hence the inclusion of Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein).
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And frankly.. I don't get the 14th wage argument.
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As far as I can tell, there are limited options available to the EU/Euro-zone in relation to Greece.
1, The Euro-zone gives them buckets of cash and nothing changes.
2, The IMF lends them loads of cash and nothing changes.
3, Greman/French government banks buy Greek debt in the form of bonds with severe controls on the Greek economy and nothing changes.
4, Greece leaves the Euro-zone and makes its own way in the financial world. Nothing will change, but it will only hurt Greece and the striking Greeks.
Each option would see a change in the value of the Euro, and none of them would see that change for the good.
To me, the best option is the one that offers the quickest recovery.
Options 1 and 2 would simply see the other nations mentioned become targets and the Euro would continue to suffer speculative attacks. It could take years to recover to the same position as now.
Option 3 would simply make the situation worse. Other Euro-zone nations would simply copy the Greek example of striking at the first sign of austerity and wait for the inevitable German/French bond buy. Caring more for their own pockets than the survival of the Euro (a currency with no historic loyalty ties).
Option 4 would of course see Greece suffer heavily, much to the delight of many a European worker who sees the Greek as a money-grabbing, lieing, cheating, lazy thief. At the same time it would enable Greece to save itself, meet Euro-zone standards and make the economic/social changes required to become an integral part of the wider economic world.
The Euro would suffer too, attackers would move to other nations. And yet, these other nations would have two choices. Work to fix the problem with the Euro-zone, or go your own way. It might make the potential strikers stop and think. First-world reform or third-world isolation?
The Euro would take a hit, but I believe it would recover sooner as a leaner/fitter/stronger trading and economic block minus the weights that drag it downwards.
Everytime EU mandated austerity measures are mentioned in Greece, the people hit the streets. Surely the powers that be must see that Greece is simply paying lip-service to the Euro-zone and not actually implementing any measures. Indeed, rather than standing up to the Greek unions, their PM has slunk off to Germany to try and butter-up Mrs Merkal and secure a favourable bail out.
Madness.
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WA;
I hate to break it to you but putting an ice skating rink on a ship is not a new idea, it's at least 10 or 15 years old. They also put a lot more on them. Here's a glance at the competition and they do serve more than borscht, potatoes, cabbage, and herring for dinner;
http://www.royalcaribbean.com/findacruise/ships/home.do
This must be a tough business now. Between RCL Corporation's Royal Caribbean Cruise Line and its other subsidiary Celebrity Lines, it's probably got about 100,000 tickets a week to sell every week. It's much larger Competitor Carnival Corporation having so many more Cruise Lines and ships probably has twice that many. On the day a ship sails, the unsold ticket isn't worth the paper it's printed on and it costs the owner as much to sail each vessel empty as fully booked. The Oasis of the Seas is now the largest passenger ship ever built at 210,000 tons. I think it's sister ship Allure of the seas will be the same size.
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@ theoryvspractice
There are other countries also (France, The Netherlands, perhaps others also correct me if I am wrong) where the yearly salary is distributed not in 12 instances but 13 or 14 (usually not full salaries, some extra money before Christmas and Summer). The total amount is important not the way it is distributed. Anyway, not very important.
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#285 Vassilis - a very accurate summation of the situation!
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@294
Option 5. Greece starts printing euros. Pay it's own debts to foreign lenders. No true circulation of new printed euros to greece. Inflationary problem to others.
Just one i could think of.
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@296
Precisely! Personally, i would love to have a down payment of my annual salary in January. 1 salary. Sounds better Euroweasels?
Wouldn't it rather be more honest, daring and brave if Greece PM (and his bitter smiling counterparts) said 'We will chop your already chopped annual income. So we can pay for our (politicians) FAILURE'. There have to be some consequences to them, no? Maybe Greeks should think of bringing back the ostracism practice?
Also, 'Bad management' sounds very polished to me.
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tvs;
"Option 5. Greece starts printing euros. Pay it's own debts to foreign lenders."
I was thinking of using my photocopying machine to do just that. Unfortunately I have no more legal right to print US currency than Greece has to print Euros. Only the ECB can print Euros. If Greece printed them they have a name for that. It's called forgery and it's a crime. But then so is fraud which is what they practiced and got away with when they entered the EU so maybe forgery is worth a try. Where the ends justifies the means, this would make the problem go away...for the moment. Given how long it took to build the Olympic venues, it might be awhile before Greece could print script that would pass bank tellers though.
It's interesting that for all of Europe's love of theories, they haven't reflected much on the underlying theoretical consideratons that have gotten them into the mess they are in. For example, there is no discussion I've heard of of what the situation would be instead if the Growth and Stability Pact in Maastrict had been kept and enforced. Nope, they don't want to think about it. I don't recall there was much discussion about it when it was ditched either.
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I am not a number
Re #292
It is certainly the case that UK MPs & National MPs of most member Nations at times find it easier to 'blame' the EU when things don't go the way they want than admit to their own mistakes, errors, cock-ups or downright ineptitude-venality-corruption.
But then, that is a ploy of every Politician of whatever ilk:
Hence, EU Commission President Barroso, EU Council President von Rompuy, EU Chair of the EUrogroup Herr Juncker, and EU Foreign Minister Ashton have all recently stated the Economic recession and struggles of the PIGS plus debacle of Greece shows that, "..much more CENTRAL control must be taken by the EU.." as apparently it is all the fault of those sovereign States. Barroso et al claim there has not been enough 'ever closer union'.
In other words, since Maastricht 1992 whenever and in whichever areas the EU27/EU16 etc. have made significant progress it was all because of Brussels' superb influence & policies on the supra-National European Union Membership: Equally, whenever and in whichever area anything happened to go wrong (e.g. Greece cheating on its accounts in the EUro-zone for 10 years) then that was all the fault of the National Governments as Brussels can do no wrong!?
Its the sort of ideas those 'silly' Brussels' servants send out as disinformation all the time.
I guess they hope if they repeat the same lies often enough Citizens will think it is true.
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Does each country in the E.U. have a different credit ratings like states in the U.S. or do all countries with the Euro get the same kind of loans? I am curious,States in the U.S. each get a different credit score for State governments and that's a problem right now for many states because we have a similar problem States that are usually donor states to the U.S. federal government like California,Michigan,New York,etc.. pay more into system then they receive.Basically like 15-20 states usually are paying for the federal government,but now they are the states with high unemployment and huge state debts.The poor states like 30 of them don't want the states that usually pay for the federal government to get money to bail out their state governments because they want that money not realizing that money isn't there if the rich states can't generate revenue.Trust me this will be a issue real soon.My state Michigan is going to be in trouble soon it's worst especially since many State governments are going to change hands soon for new elections.So states like Michigan have Governor and State Congress unwilling to address the issue because they don't care because their terms are running out.But if they do get poor the federal government will pick some bills but as I said I don't know where they will get the money if the rich states who usually pay the bills are out of money?I think the real issue here for all our countries is the same Baby Boomers are retiring running up huge costs on the governments everywhere in Europe,North America,and Asian countries.Do you increase taxes on the young or cuts services from the generation about to retire?That the real problem we all face.
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283. At 12:09pm on 04 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote:
"@EU PRISONER
...
You really shouldn't comment on ECJ rulings without having knowledge of the basics of EU law.
...
Through the directive, there is an 'obligation de resultat' on the member states, to achieve a given objective laid down in the directive.
..."
EUpris: The fact that there is such a thing as "EU law" which supposedly applies to the UK is already too much for me. I have no desire to find out more about it. As for "directives"! I note that the Third Reich also had directives. Directives are just another thing that make me think of the Third Reich when I think of the "EU".
The interference in Italian affairs is indicative of a desire to interfere in the workings of "member states." Even if the "ECJ" had no alternative that desire was present at the "design stage" and I resent it. The "EU" could have got "member states" to sign a treaty which required those "member states" to put the Lisbon Treaty to a referendum especially in the UK where we had been promised a referendum. They did nothing of the sort because the renaming of the "constitution" as the Lisbon Treaty was a ploy. The arrogance of the whole thing is breath taking. By engaging in such tricks the "EU" has demonstrated its complete and utter contempt for the people it is intended to serve. It has demonstrated that it is the enemy of the people of Britain and Europe, that it is the enemy of democracy and that it is, at least in part, fascist.
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285. At 12:21pm on 04 Mar 2010, vassilis wrote:
"@EUprisoner209456731
Your gov and media seem very corrupt to me then!"
EUpris: "Corrupt" may technically not be the right word to use. The present government and the governance of the UK certainly stink! The voting system is rubbish so that the whole thing is blocked by the apparatuses of the three major parties. Our MPs have done more damage to the UK than was done by some people who were hanged for treason after WWI and WWII.
Nevertheless: I have never paid a bribe anywhere. There is certainly no corruption here that comes close to the situation in Greece or Italy. I want to be friendly with the Greeks and the Italians but I do not want to be in apolitical union with them.
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EFTA:
Somebody commented that EFTA had been a failure. I certainly do not know everything there is to know about EFTA but I know of nothing that would justify calling it a failure.. I know plenty that justifies calling the "EU" a failure and a lot else besides.
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MA, @295.
Thanks, looked at the competition. Videos, very alluring (unfortunately they devoted too much time in video ads to showing useless venues and senseless activities, over , you know. Anyway from what I caught there, the glimpses, these are not open deck skating rinks. Underground ones, well, inside.
Now, OUR ship with the skating rink will be different. Open deck skating, for starters. But not even that :o)
Mavrelius, how to say. I worked on a floating hotel, a hotel, converted from Norwegian oil platform eh addition, a ship parked nearby to be the accommodation for oil extractors out of the Northern sea and like, a bobbling HQ :o)) Now, the Swedes, who ran it, once upon a time arranged a "Russian parents" day :o))) like in a kindergarten, because all Russian employees were very young, for mums and dads to go on board have fun and not to talk their kids away from working there, or, how to say, a general staff morale boosting exercise. Mums and dads and grand dams, an expanded employee party.
So I told my dad like would you like to come over?
The reply was shoryt and concise :o))) haven't forgotten still.
That's not class of a vessel I'll put my foot on. :o)))) One rocket - and there is none of your Olympia.
:o))))
That'll be the difference. :o))) The competitibve advantage, between our Sochi skating rink :o))) and "the Royal Cruise competition" :o)))
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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100004157/how-the-ecb-has-contributed-to-the-greek-debt-crisis/
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Then, MA, I think the notion can be expanded. To double Lutz.
I hate to break it out to you :o))) but my feeling is believing is we are also looking at a couple of German subs.
So, a sauna in a sub - don't know if you finally got it, we had for ages.
A smoking room in a sub with how to saw, a cigar smoking lounge sub-division :o))) modelled on an English club eh that smoking room - as far as I am aware - to this day exists as a Russian sub speciality.
Someone was fond of Sherlock Holmes movies or something.
But a skating rink in a sub must admit is an un-exploited by us yet an advantage, shame and all, must write to Medvedev what he hoped for in Olympics without kind of silly.
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Today is 4 March 2010 from this point on, as far as I am concerned :o))) - all rights reserved. Any skating rink to appear on board airline carrier or a sub will be plagiarism, well the airline carrier rights I am morally prpared to share with Mavrelius.
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@EUprisoner209456731
Have never paid a bribe, have never accepted a bribe. Although Greek system far from ideal (needs changes and I support changes, will take time) is not as corrupt as reported. There are certainly many and big problems as there are problems in the UK. Just different.
For example, we have no problem with teenage pregnancies, no problem with alcohol abuse, no such problem with yobish behaviour and juvenile crime. No society is perfect and I have the greatest respect for the UK people and I only hope that you get the referendum you demand and the will of the people is respected. You are indeed entitled to be members only in political unions of your liking and I respect your opinion not to be in a political union with Greece or Italy. As I have said before in all honesty the big fear of Greece has to do with security (not money, Greece is not in EU for money) and unfortunately has to jump into whatever can help secure her borders (I don't imply that EU helps in this direction necessarily but there is the perception that we are safer being within EU because the country we feel to be the threat is outside. It might actually be another myth).
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@292, it seems like the BBC doesn't like the fact I linked to a PDF file so let's try that again. Internal Market scoreboard
@302. Ah yes the classic it's all Brussels/the nations fault, the truth, as always, is somewhere in between. Still CBW, I don't get how your post is any way a related to my post (292) Perhaps you've quoted the wrong person?
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WA;
The ship chistened the Royal Viking Sun sometime around 1988 became the Holland America Prinzendam a few years ago at some point after Carnival Corporation owned both of them. Carnival Corporation bought Holland America early on along with Seaborn and Windstar. It also owned Carnival Cruise Lines of course. Cunard acquired Royal Viking and then Carnival Corporation gobbled up Cunard (along with Costa and later Princess.) So it was easy to make the transition from one division to another. Rhis ship always had a smoking room with a wood burning fireplace but I think the US Coast Guard took a dim view of a fire on a cruise ship at sea. As I understand it, it doesn't get used, at least not burning wood. I don't know what they do with it. Anyway, for other reasons it's a ship I wouldn't mind sailing on myself.
Are cruise ships in the size range of well over 100,000 tons really cruise ships at all? I'm not sure. Do you feel like you are at sea on them? The largest one I sailed was the Monarch of the Seas at 73,000+ tons. It was quite new when I sailed it the first of the three times I was on it but now it seems to be the oldest ship in RCL's fleet. There are a lot of major differences between cruise lines and cruise ships. They run the gamut from awful to superb. RCL and Holland America are two of my favorites. Not the best at any price but very good and if you know how to shop for them, excellent value for money. I always enjoyed my cruises on both of those lines.
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@EU Prisoner:
re "EUpris: The fact that there is such a thing as "EU law" which supposedly applies to the UK is already too much for me. I have no desire to find out more about it. As for "directives"! I note that the Third Reich also had directives. Directives are just another thing that make me think of the Third Reich when I think of the "EU".
The interference in Italian affairs is indicative of a desire to interfere in the workings of "member states." Even if the "ECJ" had no alternative that desire was present at the "design stage" and I resent it. The "EU" could have got "member states" to sign a treaty which required those "member states" to put the Lisbon Treaty to a referendum especially in the UK where we had been promised a referendum. They did nothing of the sort because the renaming of the "constitution" as the Lisbon Treaty was a ploy. The arrogance of the whole thing is breath taking. By engaging in such tricks the "EU" has demonstrated its complete and utter contempt for the people it is intended to serve. It has demonstrated that it is the enemy of the people of Britain and Europe, that it is the enemy of democracy and that it is, at least in part, fascist."
So what are you saying? You don't want to know how the EU functions, but you don't feel any restraint to criticize it? How can you criticeze something if you don't know the basics of it?
Your remark on directives is the silliest I have yet read on these boards. You know the nazi's used the word 'social welfare' as well, enough for you to dismiss the entire social welfare system in the UK?
And again. The ECJ has all right and duty to 'interfere' in Italian affairs. The Italian government took on an obligation, it needs to respect this. This is why the EU as a project is so radically new and revolutionary: in the past states were supreme and were held accountable to none. This is still how 'modern' (= 19th century) states work (examples: US, China, Russia, Australia, everything except EU). This is in contrast with the post modern state of the EU, where national states have pooled sovereignty and accept the jurisdiction of an international court. This is why Europe is again (just like in the 16th century in Westphalia and onwards) is at the vanguard of human history and development: the fact that states (formerly the supreme sovereign entity, not bound by anything but their national interests) are bound by the Law.
Your remark on a new treaty to force the member states to hold referendums is quite typical of your complete lack of understanding on how the EU functions.
How do you imagine the situation where 'the EU' forces the 'member states' to conclude a new agreement? You do know that the people that write the Treaties in the EU (be it amending treaties such as Lisbon or accession treaties) are representatives of the member states (not the ECJ, Commission, Parliament, etc)? 'The Eu' the way you use it therefore doesn't exist. You are essentially demanding that the governments conclude an EU revision treaty to force themselves to hold referendums...
re "Somebody commented that EFTA had been a failure. I certainly do not know everything there is to know about EFTA but I know of nothing that would justify calling it a failure.. I know plenty that justifies calling the "EU" a failure and a lot else besides."
Well, you might want to compare the membership of EFTA and EU and the historical evolution of both, that says enough...
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310. At 8:32pm on 04 Mar 2010, vassilis wrote:
"@EUprisoner209456731
...
For example, we have no problem with teenage pregnancies, no problem with alcohol abuse, no such problem with yobish behaviour and juvenile crime "
EUpris: I accept that we have very considerable problems in these area. I want us to learn as much as we can from other countries. To do that we do not need to be in a political union with them. I would like to see British criminals being prevented from going abroad. The young man who tried to scratch my eyes out two years ago and who was "known to the police for a number of reasons" was not sent to court even though the investigating police officer wanted him to be. He is a disgrace to himself and his country. I have been told that he has since been on holiday on the continent. It should not have been allowed.
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I am not a number @#292
The proof of the pudding regarding the rubber-stamp approval of the Commissioners by the MEPs is not that they might have belaboured the acceptance of one nominated Commissioner who resigned - and who was then promptly replaced by another nominee from Bulgaria, Kristalina Georgieva) - but whether the MEPs approved all of the nominated-by-nation Commissioners who then went on to become Commissioners .....
And, lo and behold, what do you think that review would reveal.
Yep, Boom-boom, everyone will have guessed correctly .... ALL the nominated Commissioners got accepted by the MEPs.
That's what I call rubber-stamping.
I certainly don't think it is in any way, shape or form a democratic process!
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313. At 9:29pm on 04 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote:
"@EU Prisoner: ...
So what are you saying? You don't want to know how the EU functions, but you don't feel any restraint to criticize it? How can you criticeze something if you don't know the basics of it? "
EUpris: I know enough about the "EU" to justify criticising it. I know that we in the UK were promised a referendum which we did not get. I know that the powers of continental policemen are unacceptable even when they obey their laws. I know that when they behave in a fascist manner too little happens. I know that they could start operating here one day. I know that there is far more corruption in continental countries than in the UK. I know that many continentals were on the side of the Argentines in the Falklands War. I know enough to want to be free of the "EU" now. NOW!!!
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@EUprisoner
Not the Greeks! We have Greek-inhabited and uninhabited islands (with strong suspicions for oil in their continental shell) far from mainland!
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Jean Luc, 272:
"@ CornwallCoastPath Re "May I suggest, Jean Luc, that you do a bit more research before adding your comments. Jose Manuel Barroso publicly argued against Britain holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty; please see the reference below:"
So he gave his opinion? He has no competence to decide this. He could stand on his head if he wanted, the choice was up to the UK government."
If he has no competence, then WHY did he give his opinion? If someone voices an opinion on a subject, they obviously consider themselves competent to talk about it! The only reason I can think of for Barroso speaking out is that he wanted to influence the British government not to hold a referendum. At the very least that would be contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, of the EU - member state relationship you refer to.
As I said in 250, I think it would be useful for you to consider carefully the events of June 2005. Sometime around then, the European Constitution was killed off (albeit to rise from grave later on as the Lisbon Treaty). That decision can only have been made at an EU level, rather than by any individual member state. But as a direct consequence of that decision, the British government was prevented from honouring its manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on the said Constitution. In effect the EU decided that the British government should not hold a referendum on the European Constitution.
"The idea is really simple mate. You can join the club or stay outside. No one forces you either way."
What you need to understand - mate - is that the British people have not had an EU referendum