Greek games
In recent weeks the Greek Prime Minister, George Papandreou, has had his game plan. It is to play the veiled threat. He wants the EU to offer his country a concrete rescue plan that can be rolled out if Greece needs it. His hope - shared by others - is that the mere existence of the plan will tame the markets and lower the costs of borrowing. But as he watches the Union struggle to find consensus he makes his threat: I might be forced to turn to the IMF.
What he has been counting on is European horror at such a move. It would be a humiliation for the whole European project, say some. It would signal to the world we can't manage our own currency, say others. It would lower Europe's prestige. Did not President Sarkozy say only recently "we cannot let a country fall that is in the eurozone. Otherwise there is no point in creating the euro." The Spanish, too, recoil at the thought of turning to the IMF, with the United States its largest shareholder.
The Greek leader sprinkles his threats with a beguiling appeal to lofty European ideals. "We are a family of values," he reminds his potential backers, and we should be showing the world "Europe can act together in a co-ordinated way".
Suddenly it appears he may have mis-read the game. Germany has changed its tune. To the threat "I'll go to the IMF" the German response seems to be "please, make my day".
The euro-crisis is throwing up some new truths. Germany will be unsentimental about its currency. At its birth there was a "no bail-out" clause and Germany has a constitutional court that may well uphold that.
As to the cry of supporting European ideals, there are few misty eyes in Germany. Angela Merkel will defend national interest first. That is the message emerging from Berlin.
To those who see an appeal to the IMF as damaging it is surely too late. There is scarcely an economist out there who has not pointed out the inherent difficulty in running a single currency where there is monetary and not fiscal union. And the differences between the economies that share the currency are there for all to see. In recent weeks the EU has shown it lacks the mechanism to handle a crisis like this. The difficulty was on display last Monday, when Jean-Claude Juncker, the head of the Eurogroup, said "we have clarified the modalities" - and everyone, including the markets, was none the wiser.
In truth many have felt from the outset that the IMF route was the least problematical. It is certainly the UK route. Leaving pride aside, the cost of servicing Greece's debts would halve.
So we move forward to next week's economic policy summit. The Greek crisis is likely to dominate again. The IMF, either on its own or in partnership with the EU, may begin to appear the best option in the short term.
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They should be sent to the IMF, the EMF will not be set up in time and it would serve as an excellent cautionary tale in the future.
I don't see why European leaders are so against it, the problem is with Greece not the Euro or the EU. Everyone can see it.
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I have just two remarks to this: It is not easy to say exactlty what national German interests are. On short terms or long terms? The complexity is reflected in article 23 of the German constitution.
Secondly: Germany's position in the matter has changed a couple of times now. It might also be the case in other countries. Therefore, it is quite difficult to predict what the outcome of next week's meeting will be.
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@Mathiasen
“Secondly: Germany's position in the matter has changed a couple of times now. It might also be the case in other countries. Therefore, it is quite difficult to predict what the outcome of next week's meeting will be.”
I assume the change in the German stance is the result of a very careful analyses of the chances to solve the problem within the EU /i.e. on the account of German state, being the biggest contributor/ or within the EU but with the help of the IMO /i.e. with the US involvement, being the larger shareholder of the IMO money/. I would risk telling that the second version will be given a better chance. Greece will not be expelled from the Euro team, the Papandreou's austerity plan has already been put into force /as a proof, I can assure you that our neighbours, the Greek people already come here, in tens of thousands to buy cheaper gas for their cars and go shopping in south Bulgaria were the prices are two times lower than in Greece /the distances to be covered here are the same as between two neighbour German states/.
Sofia, Marsh 19th 2010
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It's a circus with many clowns!
@MAII
Store large amounts of popcorn, beer and pizzas! This soap opera has no ending! It's a drama, it will end in tears, I just have a hunch that won't be only Greeks crying... (they will do anyway).
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#3 Generalissimo,
No, I would not call it a very careful analysis, on the contrary. It appears to be ad hoc planning.
I have noticed that some here have asked for a detailed plan. I think we should use the model of an improvising musician here to understand what is going on: You prepare yourself for the jam session, and when you are on the scene you react (interact) on the basis of that preparation.
I believe this is the situation of all the leaders at the meeting next week.
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@Mathiasen
Great reporting and great analysis :)) it is obvious that no one has a clue as to what is going on or what to do:))
Also as Gavin points out the only solution to this crisis is either more union or get rid of the Euro (and maybe the Union if it is not a Union).
I also have doubts that Merkel is serving German's interests with her stand, for sure her party's interests but not sure about Germany's interests, like us here in the UK either we want a union and all its benefits disadvantages or we don't and we move out of it and lets others get on with forming a union.
#1 @Ben,
Greece (and everyone else ) are the EU & and the Euro, so the EU & the Euro have a problem! And the problem is that the EU & the Euro can't deal with themselves, they can't deal with crisis, they can't be trusted internationally, they can't clean up their own mess let alone help international partners with anything. That is the message that is send across.
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Gavin,
In one sweet soundbite you encapsulate all that is wrong with the EU and Eurozone dream, "... Angela Merkel will defend national interest first. That is the message emerging from Berlin..... Such is the weakness of the European Union and the Eurozone which was built upon quicksands and delusions of grandeur.
Why should any sovereign nation seek solidarity with other nations that are not equal partners and equally responsible for delivering the benefits of membership unless the whole concept of the EU is only the socialist ideal of redistribution of wealth ... in which case Germany might as well just hand over all its got to the EU and every German citizen look forward to penury as their living standards drop down to levels of the lowest common denominator nations.
I find it almost comical to see the criticism heaped on Germany for suggesting the Greece go to the IMF to help it out with its probable inability to pay the forthcoming Loan interest payment due in May: That's what the IMF is there for and it is only the grandstanding of the other Eurozone members with their pretentions of being Global Players and who seem to see the USA as a bete noire (which is sheer self-grandisement arrogance!) that are preventing a natural move for any Nation that is in economic tutmoil to make to approaching the IMF.
Quite frankly, the Eurozone nations other than Germany, do not currently have the economic wherewithall to help Greece and even Germany would have to suffer serious economic damage if it were to step up to the plate to help Greece. Thus, realistically, Greece (and the other Eurozone nations) has no options - unless it can do the impossible and raise international loans at an interest rate that means they can meet their May repayment without going to the economic wall through having to pay an exhorbitant interest rate - must go to the IMF despite the hurt pride of France and its other Eurozone allies.
Solidarity inside the bubble of economic prosperity is one thing but when times get tough - as they are now fast going to become tougher as nations have borrowed to spend to fight recession and those loans start to require interest payments or even require repayment in full very soon - one will see that international solidarity is but a fragile if not entirely an illusory thing and national self-interest becomes far more important.
One hopes that the non-Eurozone nations take note of the lack of solidarity and realise they are better off outside the Euro and, in another revelation of the reality, better off outside of the European Union as the cracks and weaknesses in that delusion of grandeur are now visible for all to see.
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Through out, it seems that it is the personalities of the national leaders that is determining policy and how this particular issue should be handled.
If the Euro is to achieve credibility as anything other than a tourist currency, then should not the EU institutions be determining how this matter is handled? It would be interesting to hear their personal opinions on events.
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I cannot make up my mind whether the story you recount Gavin is a comedy or a tragedy and the truth is that it has elements of both in it.Having also read notayesmanseconomics web blogs update for today I was struck by his quotes from the 10th February where he pretty much predicted this mess...
Did UKIP ever realise that it had allies at the German Constitutional Court?
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@ 5 Mathiasen
The eventual ad hoc agreement seems to be the most plausible if we take into consideration that all the participants in the forum have no legal support of their arguments on whether Greece should be expelled or not; on whether the EU- fiscal assistance is compulsory or not, etc. One thing is sure: they will welcome the austerity plan of the Greek government, and, maybe, in a quite reluctant way, they will agree that Greece can be re-funded, on ots own risk, by the IMO. /If that happens, the political rating of the EU will go down along with the Euro exchange rate/.
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@ 10
Had in mind the IMF, not the IMO.
Sorry for the mistake
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I agree with Menedemus, at the end of the day this is the message from Chancellor Merkel: every nation for itself. There is no Union. Union means to stay together in difficult times not at easy times. Any real union is tried at these difficult times and it has been proven that this is not a real union. Thus, for the same reason I think Greece has to default. This is the say of many people in Greece many economists also and suits nicely with the new principle of the 'union' at difficult times, every nation for itself. IMF will come with even worse austerity programme, people will revolt (why shouldn't they? if they have no money to live? they won't be able to think of anything worse and actually one could argue that it is rational game playing, why should they pay the debts back? situation like Argentina) I think the default will happen. Some 43 billion to German banks down the drain and other tens of billion of pounds to other banks in Europe. A very nice EU wide crisis is looming. I think that the markets will smell the blood and will attack shortly the whole eurozone, perhaps choosing victims one by one. If we cannot find a system to support each other all will be taken. Actually this is a much larger danger for me because if the only problem is Greece I can easily move and work to another EU country, however if the whole EU goes into crisis, I have nowhere to go. (unless MAII invites me to have a beer together in his paradise on earth but I find this highly unlikely! :-))
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"What he has been counting on is European horror at such a move. It would be a humiliation for the whole European project, say some. It would signal to the world we can't manage our own currency, say others"
The mere petition to the IMF could trigger the collapse of the Euro. There is no guarantee that the IMF will agree and even if it does, it will take time for details to be worked out, agreed to and signed off on. In the iterim, the world currency trading markets may conclude that the Euro is intrinsically unsound or at least highly overvalued. So the application could send the markets reeling. The market is aware that after Greece, there is more to come and even the IMF doesn't have the resources to come to the rescue of all of the PIIGS if it wanted to.
"To those who see an appeal to the IMF as damaging it is surely too late. There is scarcely an economist out there who has not pointed out the inherent difficulty in running a single currency where there is monetary and not fiscal union. And the differences between the economies that share the currency are there for all to see"
Difficulty or impossibility? When this was pointed out at the beginning of the process and all during its ragged history, this sound argument was overwhelmed by political rhetoric, hyperbole, bombast, boasting, and bluster. As is always the case in Europe, rational analysis and sound action based on it was swept aside by emotion. "Don't confuse us with the facts, our minds are made up." The day of reckoning when the chickens would come home to roost was inevitable the day the instruments were signed even before the ink was dry.
The only thing those who dissented from it can say is "I told you so." And all anyone can do is sit back and watch how an ediface so ill conceived, so poorly engineered, so carelessly constructed, so absurdly convoluted just to keep it erect for the time it lasted will be to watch it implode.
vassilis, I'm laying in a large supply of popcorn, beer, Italian sub sandwiches, nachos, and other comfort food for the spectacle. Pizza is best ordered periodically fresh from the oven as needed.
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Greece should not have allowed to join the euro in the first place, as they cooked the books in order to appear as they had met the entry criteria. Worse still, having gotten away with their creative accounting, Greece continued building an oversized public sector and cared little for international competitiveness. Moreover, the Greeks have maintained an imprudent line of thinking that they could always count on some sort of an EMU bailout should they face difficulties in servicing their sovereign debt. All said and done, IMF does seem like the best solution. First, it makes everyone undestand that joining the EMU does not mean getting access to unlimited cheap funding no matter what. Second, it has the tools and the experience in dealing with governments in financial distress. Third, it lowers the risk of a surge in public backlash within the EMU nations, notably Germany, that would be most involved in bailing out Greece. Fourth, if the (overvalued) euro was to depreciate against the USD by 10%-15%, so much the better for eurozone's economic recovery.
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When the Greeks start paying VAT at the levels I do (22%) and retire at the age I do (likely to be 67) and start paying income tax instead of the national sport called tax avoidance, THEN they should get financial help in the form of cheap credits. But until then they need to take a dose of medicine in the form of frugality instead of living off the backs of northern europeans.
Frankly, at the moment I would not lend them a dime!
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I don't know. I feel that I understand the German mentality when the other day, I saw on the TV the remarks of the German financial minister. He said something on the lines of two football teams played a game and one won since it was better. It is not fair to ask from the better team to lower it's level in order to compete.
On the other hand, my opinion (and I hope of others as well in the EU), is that the EU is a team that competes with other teams in the world (US, BRIC countries, OPEC etc). If our star player, no mater how good he is, plays a solo game and never slows down with the rest of the team, then our team is doomed to loose the match.
As for the IMF? Bring it on. We have survived worse.
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7. At 11:28am on 19 Mar 2010, Menedemus wrote:
...That's what the IMF is there for and it is only the grandstanding of the other Eurozone members with their pretentions of being Global Players and who seem to see the USA as a bete noire...
-------------------------------------------------------
Well it seems that the Chinese have a load of foreign currency on their hands. Perhaps they would be less of a bete noire! Where is the Chinese Monetary Fund?
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You just do not get it do you?
The situation is like this... Germany is a rich but somehow unattractive lady and Greece is like the handsome but poor man who will sleep with just any rich girl to rise socially. The rich German lady lied to her father about her Greek man as-if being the ideal husband and she married him to satisfy her ego for long keeping satisfying his caprices. However, when her man tried to set up his own business she sabotaged his effort to keep him dependent on her, her only way to yield power over him. Now her handsome man falls ill out of his past abuses and needs special treatment which is considerably expensive. And the unattractive rich woman knows that he is no more the handsome man but just a sick man. She thinks that anyway he hadn't loved her really and that he was anyway always prone to be adulterous (caught him last year with a Russian ballet dancer), and that with her money she can do better and thus refuses to pay his treatment.
However, both irresponsible partners above should know that a marriage is not all about enjoying the easy things and running away from the nasty ones.
And the EU no matter what you say it is a marriage. It is not at all just economic collaboratio and all that. That was back in the 1960s. Greece enterred the EU in 1978 and since then it has no sovereignty over its lands eg. Turkish violations started exactly the time Greece enterred the EU - coincidence? If giving your sovereignty is not a marriage then what is it? And what Germans were thinking when they happily accepted Greece's ex-PM Simiti's financial data cooking which would make Gordon Ramsey's kitchen nightmares seem like the best places to eat? Even nursery-school Greek kids knew Greece cooked it up to enter, and everyone knew it was not us but Europeans that wanted it that way. What were they thinking when accepting Greece inside the eurozone when Greece not only had not taken no measure but it was getting multiple times more loans to cover the explosion of Olympic expenses (I think more than 3 times the initial budget and multiple times as expensive as the Sydney Olympics in a post-2001 era...). Maybe back then Greeks were sexy since German companies took the bulk of that market - mainly by bribing of course (let alone Greece being the smallest and poorest country having taken the Olympics with 1 vote difference: guess who was the last vote? Not it was not the Germans, it was the Deutch, not sorry the Teutons, hmmm maybe the Alamans? Hehe!). Of course Angela might claim that she is not responsible to what Schroedder did in the past. Well... that reminds me of the wife saying "I am not the same woman that married you, and you are not he man that women fell in love"...
Just think of it: Greeks do not ask any money, they ask the EU to ignore the US private banks own personal ratings and insist on EU internal private institutions giving to Greece a reasonable loan rating. This should be an internal market affair and it should not be a problem if US private companies nullified Greece's borrowing capacity. You will tell me that in the globalised world there is no EU private financial institution which is independent of US ones. Ehhh!!! That is the heart of our question!
Angela choses the easy path. Protect the micro-interests of now. One thing is certain and that pretty much everyone of you have mentioned it more or less: in the long turn, it will turn against EU and in particular Germany.
As for Greece, in reality it has much more choices than the IMF. Do not worry about the Greeks themselves. That crisis will not be their destruction. Given their very recent part of their history (i.e. only the last 1000 years history... hehe!), not to mention the last 100, today is actually cruising! As Generalissimo said, Greeks will find their way to get through and might as well use the case to solve some issues imposed on them by US with EU which are not of financial issue.
EU is a marriage. Marriage is not easy, but its meant to be a good thing. But EU became a sick marriage as it did all things inversely against its own peoples' choice.
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vassilis;
It's all wishful thinking on Merckel's part. If Germany doesn't prop up Greece and the other PIIGS Germans would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. When the currency speculators attack, it will be all of Euroland at once. They may be dumping individual national bonds too seeing as they will lose their value as well. The whole stinking thing will go at once.
Oceans of beer, plenty of room, lots of TVs to follow the action on all the major news channels including the financial channels like CNBC and Bloomberg. WA can come and play with my two dogs. Perhaps that will cheer her up :-)
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@Christos
Good analogy. We (Europe) will be taken out one by one. Europe is doomed to fail.
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BabyBear;
"Greece should not have allowed to join the euro in the first place, as they cooked the books in order to appear as they had met the entry criteria"
Where were the EU's auditors at the time? Probably in Bussels or Strassbourg helping the EU cook its own books.
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Re.13: Marcus, you call for rational analysis and not emotional yet out of your dislike (perhaps inner fear) of EU (or what the EU can potentially become), it is exactly what you do.
Speaking of financial terms, under even the most basic or the most elaborate financial analysis USA should run to the IMF since the early 1970s but then as it had the weaponry in place it took to a war spree around the world trying to bend the markets so that its dollar scum be maintained. It will continue to do so I do not know for how long, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years - but do not imagine it will be 200 years or something (British Empire), let along 1000 years (Byzantine Empire). So comments about European Imperial hybris are at least misplaced especially if coming from an Empire that fell into deep recession before even enjoying 20 full years of development. As it goes, in 1000 years, historians of the future might pass quickly the American Empire chapter as a short intermediate situation (a kind of the Empire of Vandals in North Africa or something... for 100 years it was really powerful, who remembers it?).
Marcus, US is no exception to the rule: all Empire had a level of science-fiction economy, i.e. based on lies. US took it to higher levels. EU, among other issues of lack of co-operation, complexity and conflicting interests, suffers from that: as it is, it has fewer chances of telling lies. It cannot incite and make a war, say, in Mexico or South California and save its currency - I mean it in the sense that even if it could do that, it would have no beneficial effect on its market. US can do such things and that is what it saves it
Out of issue Post Scriptum:
...saves it... for the time being. Cos overfocus on trivial wars in the long run might weaken its capacity to wage an interncontinental extensive war. 20 years after the collapse of communism, still Russia has a notable advantage in nuclear arsenal and missile technology, while presents higher rates of survivability (eg. in 1907 the Tunguska meteorite crash was much more powerufll that 100s of average nuclear bombs, yet it had such an impact that ended up in most of you not even knowing about it). All the US can do is search to install tacking bases all around Russia (South Korea, Afganistan, Iraq, Georgia, Chech, Poland, Norway, Greenland) in hope to neutralise the threat. Do not even see the point. As soon as US will be ready to do so Russians will either evolve their weaponry or strike before their systems will start functioning. When Putin and Medvedef say US acts irresponsibly, they are just being honest.
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Re.14 Baybars... correct all that. But you consider EU financial analysts blind? Even nursery school Greek kids were laughing at how Greece got into Euro; everyone knew it was Europeans' decision to happen so - all that at a time Greece was borrowing multiple times more to pay the exploded Olympic costs (3 times the initial budged - the overall budget dovered at 40% by Greece and 60% by European/international private funds while Greece is less than 10% the size of the second smallest country that ever organised the Olypics). Back then Germans had only to praise the Greeks - no wonder! they had the lions' share in projects in Greece, having fed well the Greek endemic corruption: note, some of the biggest Greek financial scandals involved directly the Germans.
You should also be ware of the Greek prime minister. He is not what he seems to be (well... he is not even Greek, to tell you the truth and he holds the US citizenship... like... Saakasvili the semi-dictator of of Georgia who ruined his country to serve the US games).
Note that it was father Papandreou Andreas that created the big mess of Greek economics and society in the 1980s.
And now 20 years later, son Papandreou Giorgakis comes to to do what he does, initiating himself all that farse (why it did not happen earlier? ask yourselfs), and threatening the EU with all that. If Germany wanted to fight off in particular Papandreou, they would just bail him out... of politics all together. But they seem more willing to fight Greece as a state, or even worse, as a nation, and not fight the politics that led to that uncomfortable for all situation.
... got the pattern?
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baybars wrote:
"Greece should not have allowed to join the euro in the first place, as they cooked the books in order to appear as they had met the entry criteria."
Yes, true, but then the story of the day back then was that "everything is going to get better, you'll see."
Curiously enough, that is the current story in Euroland and the UK. Because, haha, is things don't get better then things are going to get much, much worse. So therefore, in the mind of the politician throwing credibility to the wind in order to get elected, things must get better.
Throughout this whole debate, I'm struck by the incredible chutzpah of huge numbers of folks regarding financial credibility. Listening to everyone talk about it, you'd think that money was an easy thing to handle and that most people, most of the time, lived within their means by free choice.
And yet if you look out into the wide world, on a micro or macro level, that is clearly not the case.
The drunk slouched on the street corner, do think he balances his books each week, or do you think he spends what he can when he can and then suffers until he gets more somehow?
And the masses of working class young folks who go out taking illegal drugs and drinking copious quantities of legal drugs every weekend, and who rack up massive credit card bills: do you think those good people are creditworthy, or do they simple spend what they get paid and then eat two minute noodles at mum's house while they wait for payday?
And all the tens of millions of homeowners who are in debt up to their eyeballs to the banks, for the privilege of living in a house they could have rented anyway, do you suppose these folks are shrewd money managers who know when enough is enough, and how to save for a rainy day? This group is responsible for being unable to service the mountain of toxic debt that triggered the crash: not exactly a resounding endorsement of their financial skills.
The human condition seems to me to be fundamentally opportunistic and scornful of future probabilities, like debt payments. Yes, there are financially responsible folks out there, but I think we can be dignified and acknowledge that this group is a very, very small minority. And furthermore, that they are not well represented in government, or in the modern culture of political parties.
The reason make this point about the scarcity of fiscally responsible persons is because it strikes me as faintly absurd that journalists interview professional party politicians in order to find out about public financial planning.
I'm not blaming the journalists here, clearly they are on the right track. It is the politicians who will determine public fiscal policy. We need to know what they say they think. But the absurdity remains.
Who are these people, and what are their fiscal credentials? Merkel? Who? Brown? The man best described as "he who could not borrow enough". And Sarkozy, who is he? some guy who worked for a bunch of folks who spent their lives spending other peoples money.
None of these politicians grew up professionally in an environment that might have instilled fiscal responsibility. They have always lived on other peoples debt.
Worse still, they are ideologically groomed to engineer policy that increases public debt by the very folks who lend to the public and thus who make money from the debt.
In short, we have the very worst kind of people controlling our checkbooks, and deciding for us how much debt we ought to have. And that suits the people we pay interest to on that debt.
Well, you all do. I live in Switzerland and so the people who control the checkbook I am liable for are the Swiss citizens. Real people, with real life experiences. People who understand that you can't borrow you way out of problems unless you are spending other peoples money.
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It will take the genius of another Freud to explain the cannibalism Germany has been revealing the last few days.
Sure, Mrs. Merkel will defend national interest first, and so will Mr. Papandreou.
It’s pretty clear, though, that the IMF solution is not sawing the baby in half, it is sawing off the trunk side of the branch we are sitting on.
Let the “games” begin.
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The: 'EUropean 'UNION'!
Pardon me while I giggle, guffaw and generally grin gratuitously!
Oh where are they now with their sickly sweet, maliciously melodious, unitary refrain?
What has become of:
"All things bright and unified,
All things great and codified,
All things wise and centralised,
The Brussels mammon loves them all.
Brussels made them high or lowly
And MEPs to pass by blindly!
Each little Directive that squanders,
Each little EC Judgement that orders,
It made their glowing proclamations,
It made their tiny sub-sections,
The Brussels mammon loves them all.
Brussels made them high or lowly,
And MEPs to pass by blindly!
It gaves us an EU Commission,
And reams of EU Legislation,
The rich Businessmen in office,
The poor Citizens at his service,
The Brussels mammon loves them all.
Brussels made them high or lowly,
And MEPs to pass by blindly!
Repeat: All things bright and unified,
All things wise and codifi...
... mammon loves them all."
I know, it brings a tear to the eye, does it not!? All our EU Yesterdays when everything was going to be alright in a one-size-fits-all haven!
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"And the EU no matter what you say it is a marriage. It is not at all just economic collaboratio and all that."
Just economic collaboration? "Just"?
Some would argue that the cornerstone of any marriage is economic collaboration. It takes honesty, trust and integrity to uphold any contract, and a marriage contract is no different.
Your analogy is spurious, because the greek husband "became ill". A better analogy would be that the greek man went whoring and gambling on the German father in laws' credit, and now the loan sharks have come calling for their due.
In such a scenario, even the most conservative catholic priest would consider grounds for divorce. In the protestant world, a divorce would be the only option the wife's family would consider. After all, their are the children to support in future times.
If I was counsel for such a german woman, so dishonorably cheated by her shady Greek beau, I would advise a full and frank discussion with her father regarding succession planning. I would advise the creation of a trust fund to isolate the family wealth from the Greek gambler, and I would make payments to the wife contingent on a "no contact" stipulation, requiring her to avoid social interaction with the Greek charlatan and his dubious friends (messers Spain, Italy, France and the flagrant hussey ms UK).
No doubt the father would be well advised to hire a detective agency with some real world muscle (I'd recommend the former Pinkerton agency, now owned by a Swiss security firm) in order to make it very clear to the Greek that further gambling on the German name would result in a visit to the fish at the bottom of the straits of bosphorus.
Marriage is a contract between independent adults, Nik. It is not the transfer of wealth from the female to the male.
This, among other aspects of the reformation, is one of the crucial cultural differences between northern protestant Europe and the old world of olive oil and benediction.
No, there must be a divorce, and the children, if any live, should be educated under the care of a dutch minister.
It is the only way to bring peace the family of Germany, and they are paying the legal bills in this instance, so we must defer to the sanctity of their concerns.
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As the Greek story unravels itself there is growing likelihood that it is back to square one.Politics is into the mix nearly as much as economics and financial constraints.When every word has been spoken and austerity measures put in place the case must still be proven whether or not revenues are getting propped up and spending cutback.
Crucially, is Greece raising the cash it needs at affordable rates to pay back dues and debt interest matured?
What a fix would befall the country in the aftermath of the economic downturn!
The writing had been on the wall long enough for most to remember but no-one cared enough until it came to the brink.
The German Chancellor has presented Greece's case to the Bundestag pragmatically being upfront on how she sees its broader implications without underplaying the needs of the hour.
Tricky though it may look now a review of the economic management of Euro-zone countries has become inevitable.Especially those countries that have not lived up to their obligations consistently.
If the economy is not the domain of ifs and buts, governments of the day in each of the 16-member Euro-zone must show greater implementation of policies aimed at 'operating' within range of commonly agreed criteria.
Fiscal union is a far cry from realisation and starkly shows how the vital signs of the Euro depend on a deepening of Eurozone-wide targets.
Despite differences in the economies, social expectations and governance in many of the countries involved.
If ever the no-bail-out clause were to be breached then the door would be cracked open for less-than-responsible government to visit now and then.
Not a nice picture to begin to contemplate.
One would hope the current crisis is a one-off the Euro will never be subjected to again.
Not along the lines Greece has treaded as shaped by background history.
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I'm having difficulty figuring out what Mr. Hewitt means by Germany calling Greece's bluff. I'm sure the only reason the Greeks haven't gone to the IMF is because his Euro colleagues sit on the IMF's board and he doesn't want to offend them (and thereby make pointless the IMF's intervention). In other words, Greece would rather have the IMF help it (with its smaller interest rates) but it can't come out and say that because many EU members pull weight in the IMF. So there is no phony threat. In fact, it's a preference. It's the flip side of Merkel's "Every Man for Himself."
I'd also note that the IMF--in the past--has looked at a country's finances and said, "Wow, you're screwed. I'd suggest insolvency and then we'll get you on your feet with new loans." Imagine that? Washington, DC forces German banks to take a hit on Greek debt. Wouldn't that be a hoot? But it won't happen.
Finally, I find it odd that Germany is against bailouts. They took American bailouts multiple times, including last year for their reckless gambling debts in the derivatives markets.
The US taxpayer sent $20+ billion that way. And some of it went to state-owned enterprises, like KfW which gave Lehman brothers $300 million an hour before collapse.
So, it’s understandable that Germans don’t like bailouts. But apparently, they don’t mind hypocrites.
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Nik;
"Re.13: Marcus, you call for rational analysis and not emotional yet out of your dislike (perhaps inner fear) of EU (or what the EU can potentially become), it is exactly what you do."
It isn't the EU I don't like, it's all of Europe. Actually I like the EU as a competitor. It was so easy to defeat. My assessment is not based on emotion but on a long lifetime of experience with Europeans including living among them for nearly two years. Their history explains why they are the way they are.
The US doesn't have an empire, there is no empire to fall, not in the traditional sense. Not like Rome or Britain, or France, or Spain. What the US has is the most powerful and advanced society that ever existed, most powerful in every meaningful way. That includes its economy, its cultural influence, its ability to meddle in other people's affairs. Whether it stays that way will only depend on whether or not it stays true to the principles that got it there in the first place. What those principles are and how to apply them to 21st century problems is what is being debated here now.
I wouldn't think much about Russia's nuclear armaments. There will not be a nuclear war between Russia and the US. Each country has far more than enough weapons to blow up the other and the rest of the world many times over. Those will soon be reduced on both sides but the capacity for total destruction will remain.
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Greece signed a multibillion deal for German submarines this morning, and the submarines list badly. Greece should just cancel this deal and save themselves the $4 billion they need.
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Our practice of 'Democracy' ultimately undermines the long-term goals of our societies. Politicians will say or do whatever will get them elected (that is their goal), not say or do what is responsible and necessary for the future well-being of their electorate.
Obama clarified this when questioned about his falling ratings: "The best way to retain my popularity rating would be to do nothing, keep the status quo and not annoy anyone". But we all know the status quo is untenable and without responsible change the whole edifice will come crashing down.
We humans are mostly greedy and short-term in our outlook. Our politicians know this and act to appease the immediate moment, regardless of future consequences (blue-fin tuna anyone?).
We are all royally screwed because there really is no political nor financial solution.
I agree that Greece is just the first meal; once the feeding frenzy starts there will be no end until everything has been gobbled up and we return to the usual solution: war. Can we avert it? Probably not.
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Re.25: Hmmm... even if he wanted to do so, Giorgakis Papandreou is in no position to defend national interests. I am not just implying that he will try to do so but not let to do so by tother, I am saying that even he would think of doing so, he would be instantly pass the inquisition or something.
But I have sincerely a lot of trouble accepting Giorgakis is up to defending Greek national interests. First no leader would come out publickly to admit such a thing about his country's economy only 1 week after elections and before doing anything to start correcting the situation, thus leading in a chain reaction to the events we now see.
Ask any Greek - even PASOK party supporters - and they will tell you that he is a man of absolutely no consciousness that represent US interests in Greece, he is simply dangerous. The only hope of Greeks is that somehow him serving US interests might not do that much damage to Greece.
It is complicated. His father (also a US-citizen) was a top prof. of finance in Harvard or some other top-US institution, yet he rose to Greek politics as-if he was anti-US claiming to kick out US bases in Greece. In fact what he did is to maintain them. He pretended to act against US but what he did was simply to downgrade Greece's international position. This was particularly in accordance with US politics that wanted Greece's position downgraded. PASOK party since the 90s despite being socialists became the more pro-US party in Greece.
Hence, Papandreou the father is perhaps the man the most responsible - and for many (even PASOK supporters!) he is by far the most responsible - for Greece's today's financial plight. Indeed an economy's performance depends what you did 20 years back, not just 5 years back! 20 years later son (& grandson) Papandreou rised to solve the problems his father created. Are we serious? No we are not. He is there to serve interests that are not so much apparent to you and me. The bigger game of course is US and Russia and the control of Eastern Mediterranean.
Sounds too general I am afraid but that is what it is all about:
1) Giorgakis froze the agrrements with Russians to built the Southstream and arranged with equally pro-US Bulgarian PM Borisov to built a Greek-Bulgarian pipeline to bring to the 2 countries liquified Saoudi gaz at obviously double the price than Russian gas. Not to mention that teh Southstream is mainly paid by Russia. The liquified gas project by Greeks and Bulgarians...
2) Giorgakis cancelled the talks on the leasing of Greeks ports to Chinese and created a supra-corporation uniting key Greek ports under the same umbrella be them commercial or touristic ports, a corporation that is led by the very same corrupt people of port unions (illiterate people that earn more than 10,000 euros net per month extorting money from companies while the real jobs are done anyway by small private (often illegal) companies that employ slave-force. This move is to stop future talks of leasing Greek ports (its not only Chinese but Russians that started the talk).
3) Giorgakis wants to give citizenship to 200,000 illegal immigrants (90% muslims). All muslims will be (are already) pro-PASOK and the electorate will be technically trigged for the next 20 years while as and as we know all muslims in Balkans - even the Talebans imported in Bosnia - are huge fans of USA. If Greeks might want to do otherwise they will be threatened with social trouble 10 times worse than what France knew 4 years back.
Funnily:
point 1 makes Greece lose money
point 2 makes Greece lose money
point 3 makes Greece lose money + become even more vulnerable
Telling that Mr. Papandreou battles to defend interests of Greece is the least an irony.
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@mikewarsaw (#15)
There are valid arguments in both sides to justify the frustration of both the German and the Greek peoples. Here are some relevant thoughts though:
i) At a general policy level, I would ask you to reconsider the assumption that everybody wants to be Germanized. That of course comes with both advantages and disadvantages, which I am not sure everybody thoroughly understands or is willing to admit.
ii) In the case of the Greek/EU crisis, when either the Germans or the Greeks are defending their national interest, they should both weigh very carefully the short and long term consequences of their actions (in my opinion, short term and long term national benefits are conflicting for Germany in this particular circumstance)
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The World must comprehend that PM Papandreou is aiming to remove Greece from the European Community. His motives are the investors who helped him become the new star PM for Greece. Going back to the Drachma will give the Grecian investors a vehicle to hide their transactions. The conversion will bring trillions to the investors who are pushing for this agenda. Greece will sink to the state of prior to PM Papandreou's grandfather who ushered the Junta in 1967. Six percent interest is not bad for Greece. PM Papandreou states that he only wishes for a political solution. Who is he fooling? Politics is money. Cheap money is money and his government and industrial base, huge Greek debt is not able to qualify for less expensive interest rates. Europe must help and let the Greek people know. Greece is isolated with a language barrier. The Greek press is controlled by the axis who is pushing for the destruction of the Eurozone. Please someone let them know! Now!
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Papandreou today is more or less saying that we did what we promised (severe austerity package) but others are not doing what they promised. I stronlgy believe that Greek PM had gotten some promises from EU and now seems that these promises are effectively withdrawn. I think that this whole mess will have significant political consequences for the future of Europe. At the end of the day if catastrophe of Eurozone comes, no-one will accuse the antics of the 3% of Eurozone but the stuborness of the 30% of Eurozone. Could Europe be 'destroyed' for a third time? Yes, it could. I am pretty sure that we are witnessing historical developments.
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Re.27: DemocracyThreat, yes, you described well the irresponsible Greek husband. But my story said that, yes he was a man of several weaknesses but he has tried, for pride reasons to set up his own business but his wife resented that in fear of losing her control. If you saw also, in my version of the story there is a considerable twist: the wife does not abandon the husband because of his abuses - it had been actually her that fed his passions. She abandond him for not finding the interest to save a sick man.
Anyway... tried to give a light example of a complicated situation. One has to keep in mind though that the poor sick Greek man has other options too. The Russian ballet dancer is sponsored now by some gas oligarch thus has money, in Russian there are pretty good doctors too, and at the end of the day the Russian is 10 times prettier (Timoshenko (in Ukraine, still she is Russian) vs. Merkel - no comparison!).
PS: Just to dinstinguish things. In Greek tradition, the womans' property before marriage remains hers - that was the meaning of the dowry, i.e. to act as a security that 1) the woman could survive after a possible divorce (rare but not inexistent) or 2) to make men forget they could marry and get away with the property. Of course, in practice everything could be liquidated and spent on gambling! Also in our tradition, no matter if it was strictly patriarchical and men had the last word, women had always a strong voice, actually they had the first word and did things faster than the man could speak its last word (haha!)... and then if they faced trouble - unlike most eastern and western societies - the woman's family (the famous "girls' brothers") had not only the moral right but also the moral obligaiton to intervene to "set things right". If a man hit his wife and made her life a living hell he was accountable to her family and in absence of brothers that would be the extended family. Which only left orphan women quite vulnerable but then, up to the 19th century, Greek women fared much better than any western or eastern women (eg. how do you think 2 of the most famous revolution leaders were women? Laskarina Bouboulina, Manto Mavrogenous were shipping magnates running huge businesses better than men would do...).
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As the problems created by the bankers continue and continue they hold countries hostage with their extortion. The problem is with the banks, resolve that and things may become ready for solutions. The Greeks would do well to sell their own bonds to their own people and pay them some interest rather than the banks. Global banking is a monster they preys on every country and cannot be trusted. The governments are controlled by the banks and continue as their handmaidens as they seek to take advantage of stalled economies that they created. Send some of the bankers to jail where they belong and they will certainly be more accomodating in the international market.
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Marcus Deliriums wrote:
"What the US has is the most powerful and advanced society that ever existed, most powerful in every meaningful way."
Pleeeez. You fellows beat up on Vietnam and called it draw. Then you backed down from a punch on with the Ruskis. Couldn't even say Boo! to Cuba.
In the big fight you hung around on the sidelines until it was all over, then came in and paraded over an already defeated Germany, handing out chocolate you stole from illiterate south american plantation owners.
I don't call that "most powerful" nation stuff.
What America does have is an all powerful ability to tell fairy stories to its own people. Nobody does propaganda like the USA. Walt Disney, Hollywood, Broadway: you took the English penchant for story telling and ran with it.
Tell us another story, Marcus.
Tell us about the bank bailout, and how the forces of good overcame the forces of darkness, and how a mild mannered school teacher from, the midwest SAVED THE WORLD, twice, before retiring to his corn farm and the tender care of his blonde wife with a swedish surname name.
I'm taking you up on your offer of free beer and pizza, too. One day soon.
Just as soon as I finish cultivating my refined continental superiority, and mange to pronounce the word "bratwurst" with a sufficiently haughty guttural drawl, I'll be there.
Alice can bring her cats, Jukka can bring his magical abacus, and we'll all sit down and listen to the story about the world and how it got saved by captain america.
Should be a hoot.
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Nik, you're quite right about the female strengths at law, and via the institution of the dowery. I was only stirring the waters for the protestant males in the peanut gallery.
In fact, the "english" trust originates from the muslim legal mechanism of the "waqf", and it was brought over to perfidious albion during the crusades.
So you'll get no argument from about women ruling the world. I've been blaming the mothers for years now, and I'm reasonably certain that my digestion has improved as a result.
But the analogy of marriage is useful for the debate because in marriage, just as in international finance, money follows families far more than it follows nationalities.
Howsoever the greek debt problem is resolved, we can all rest easier knowing that the families who hold the debt will be paid their interest, and that government will make the lower classes pay for any potential shortfall.
If there is one thing we can be absolutely certain of, it is that the free market will not be allowed to prevail.
We didn't fight the cold war for nothing, after all.
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The German "refusal" to pay money towards helping out Greece is a charade and nothing more than that. Germany knows full well it does not have a choice. But any money used in that way must be well-concealed and Germany has to get rid of those monies in a very roundabout way, as it is against German law to bail out ailing Eurozone members.
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@mikewarsaw (#15)
These types of arguments are definitely superficial. We may pay lower VAT and (some of us) retire some years earlier but the level of our salary is way lower, namely we start working with 680 euros/month. So you understand that if you increase the VAT to the levels of Germany you must adjust the whole economy to that levels.
Second, if you are thinking that Greece is living off the backs of northern Europeans, you have to understand how Germany is benefited from Greece. Set aside the weapon expenses (Greece is the best customer of Germany), German companies own the Athens International Airport, the highway that connects Athens with the rest of the Greece, the (ex-)national telecommunications company and the (ex-)shipbuilding yard.
Please if you want to comment on such sensitive matters use better and more technical arguments.
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As we have taken a biblical turn in our discussion of the marriage between European states, I feel I am compelled to consult the good book all Europeans share as their common heritage, and thus find solace in the laws which have governed our conduct across the expanse of the past thousand years (Lithuanian paganism notwithstanding).
Thus, I refer to the strictures found at Deuteronomy 25:11, 11-12, and draw a vivid and clear opinion of the idea that the IMF ought to interfere in the dispute between European states.
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
So i think it pretty clear what God thinks about the situation. The IMF really has to stay out of it.
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41. At 7:21pm on 19 Mar 2010, Chris Camp
Right, it seems that many here do not understand the factors in the background and the role of the court in Karlsruhe.
Tonight José Manuel Barroso has said that the commission will propose a mechanism, which will provide coordinated economic help to Greece. It will consist of a system of coordinated bilateral loans.
This is an attempt to avoid problems in Karlsruhe.
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democracythreat:
Those of you who respond to Marcus the A are only encouraging his tirades. Every country has such people who rewrite history and predict the future. Chinese websites are full of defenders of the faith. He fails to recognize that his side lost the last election..but of course those folks aren't real Americans so their votes shouldn't count. Could meet for a Sichuan hot-pot and some Tsing Tao but he wouldn't be allowed to carry his gun in China. Bailout of banks is good..,.healthcare is bad...makes you wonder about people who think like that.
Once he pulls his ear away from the radio and checks his notes I am sure he will respond. Reactionaires always appear, when the people tire of the governments enriching the few, to defend the abuse of the people. There are 300,000 Chinese students in America today and history has shown the Chinese to marry their competitors and make them Chinese. It will be a race with the Mexicans but I think the Chinese will win. Marcus...I can fix you up...you could be on the winning side this time.
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*Just to clarify Vasilis is different from vassilis.*
Same name but I write it more phonetically so that s is pronouced as s and not z.
@Vasilis
I agree. People here they do not know that the salaries are very low compared to rest of Europe, a large percentage of Greece belongs to German companies, the retiring age is 65 and could go to 67 as has happened elsewhere, Greeks work very hard on the average etc. The general stereotype for Greece is wrong, of course there are problems there is corruption, we are champions of tax evasion in Europe etc.
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dt, you're funny. Switzerland, the mouse that roared. Take away all of the world's blood money from it and what do you have left? Cheese with holes in it, chocolate, ancient clunky wristwatches, cukoo clocks, and men in funny pants and hats yodeling into the mountains.
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123. At 10:49am on 19 Mar 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
' ... Perhaps it would help to stop using silly metaphors for describing the EU. The EU is not a "prison" ...'
EUpris:
We were promised a referendum which 80 to 82% wanted but which we were denied. 70% wanted to say NO.
It's a prison.
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7. At 11:28am on 19 Mar 2010, Menedemus wrote:
" ... European Union and the Eurozone which was built upon quicksands and delusions of grandeur."
EUprisoner: It is a political version of Neuschwanstein, built on sand.
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8. At 11:37am on 19 Mar 2010, Lorentz wrote:
" ...should not the EU institutions be determining how this matter is handled? It would be interesting to hear their personal opinions on events."
EUpris: You will never hear what they really think, just what they think it is best to say.
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46.
I forgot the most important: we borrowed excessively for many years and we pay the price now! fudging the books more than the every other country, I am not so sure for many reasons.
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14. At 1:37pm on 19 Mar 2010, baybars wrote:
" ... Greece continued building an oversized public sector ..."
EUpris: I have been told today of somebody who wants to leave Athens but the schools are so good - small classes etc.
British people, who's kids go to lousy schools are partly paying for that.
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"We were promised a referendum which 80 to 82% wanted but which we were denied."
So because the democratically elected government of the UK broke a promise, the EU is a promise? I'm sorry but I'm having a little difficulty following your train of thought.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8576984.stm
'The UK Independence Party will not stand against hardline Eurosceptic rivals in other parties at the general election, its leader has said.
Lord Pearson said he would ask "seven or eight" UKIP candidates to stand aside in seats where their rivals also wanted UK withdrawal from the EU.'
EUpris: I am very glad he has done that.
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47. At 9:18pm on 19 Mar 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'dt, you're funny. Switzerland, the mouse that roared. Take away all of the world's blood money from it and what do you have left? Cheese with holes in it, chocolate, ancient clunky wristwatches, cukoo clocks, and men in funny pants and hats yodeling into the mountains. '
EUpris: It is a better country than the UK or the USA. It is, I believe, the best country on earth.
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vassilis,
Generalissimo a while ago thought you are a female blogger; is it so?
I am lost to guess as in Russia there are both names - Vasily (men's) and Vasilisa (girls').
For example, my own grandfather was Vasily, in short - :o) - Vasya.
"Ded Vasya" /granddad Vasya.
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A serious question - like many I'm not clued into the workings of the IMF. IMF contributions are denominated in SDR. If Greece found it necessary to call the IMF in, can loans to Greece be issued in Euro in place of SDR? In effect, could the ECB/EBRD loan the finance and the IMF the restructuring know how?
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democracythreat, I've got no cats left. First time in my life, for decades, I am not looking at fish stalls with a maniacy look type "which one? today?" and the tray in the toilet does not attract my attention.
I can only play with my dog (who isn't playful at all. limps. I neglected his health issues concerned with the cat, for a way too long time, and they are accummulated. and the very thought of vets again scares me silly), and with Mavrelius' duo.
Anyway what I wanted to write I found you a cartoon in youtube that might make you happy. will place as a separate post in case it proves "eatable", by our invisible company :o) moderation friends. (I think by this point nobody thinks they are computers or anything :o)
All scold the bankers recently so much in these threads. en vogue.
I remembered we had a go at bankers once upon a time. :o)
I mean, it's good not to repeat old Russian mistakes and this time :o)))) may be, like, choke them :o))) somehow more humanly :o)))
Though I can't imagine a banker who gives up on good will.
Don't know how to shorten their power this time. Clearly not like the last time (see the cartoon for directions). But how else? has to be figured out.
dial in youtube White Army, Black Baron (English sub-titles)
The text:
White Army, Black Baron
Again are cooking for us a tsarist throne
But from taiga - to the British Seas
Red Army is the strongest of all :o)
We are blowing the ww fire -
BANKERS and CHURCHES will raise down, even to the ground,
For, from Taiga - to British Seas -
The Red Army is (see above :o)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZqVOFSYRWI
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EUprisoner, I wanted to say "... the EU is a prison?", just to clarify that point :o)
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@WebAliceinwonderland
I have the same name with your grandfather.
In Greek there are cases in nouns (and names). The nominative case is 'Vasilis' but the vocative case is Vasili (without final s). Of course one can choose to write in English Vassily (like Kandinsky) which phonetically could be even more correct and I guess this is what Russians do. It is the same name.
The equivalent Greek female name is Vasiliki or Vaso. But sometimes Vaso is used also for males.
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Nik, for you I've also got a cartoon.
That's our own, self-critical view, but might have relation to your problems as well.
The key message:
Oh, how can we ever win?!
If we are so easy to buy!
Oh, how can we continue winning?!
If we are so easily sold!
The name is New Dawn (English subs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUhtrz9UtNQ
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Mathiasen @#44
Actually and to be more exact, Senor Barroso said Friday that the commission, the union's executive arm, is ready to propose a bailout mechanism "constituted by a system of coordinated bilateral loans." Barroso additionally (and quite importantly) stated that the "creation of this instrument does not imply its immediate activation."
It must be said that Mr. Barroso has no authority to make a decision on a bailout for Greece - that decision remains firmly within the remit of the leaders of EU countries and because the UK would be unlikely to countenance any support for Greece other than the through IMF, the remit (to intervene at all!) falls firmly onto the shoulders of the Eurozone EU national leadership of which Angela Merkel has stated Germany's views quite fluently enough for the markets and other Eurozone leaders to understand.
Senor Barroso is clutching at straws in the wind as clearly Germany, as the main financial guarantor, is clearly reluctant to set any precedent for bailing out Greece now let alone being then being committed to possibly having to bailout Italy (which has an even worse balance of payments than Greece) or, perhaps, Portugal or, perhaps, Spain in due course.
Everyone should know by now that Greece needs to borrow more money to make due repayment of debt interest in May 2010. The problem is that the EU has not got any financial authority to act unilaterally in supporting Greece and the ECB is bound by its own rules to require all Euro nations to keep to the financial rules for the Euro.
The fact that none of the Eurozone nations is abiding by those rules simply shows what a house of cards the Euro has become.
The risk for the Eurozone nations is that the self-imposed austerity measures upon the Greeks are, internally, as deeply unpopular as the Greek government - if the Eurozone nations DO extend loan guarantees or even commit to bilateral loans (as pronounced without any authority by Senor Barroso) the guarantor/lending nations could end up supporting a Greece that falls to loss of popular support for the current government (or even an uprising) and change of government and the risk that their guarantees/emergency loans become a dead albatross around the necks of the guarantor/lending Eurozone nations.
The IMF is far better placed and has the necessary experience to support the Greeks in addressing their failed economic processes and the IMF is the most likely end call as, without German support, the Eurozone nations are not going to have the wherewithal to support Greece other than with platitudes.
I, personally, would not set too much store by this unauthorised pronouncement by Senor Barroso.
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another good point in that cartoon is "Rich is our Mummie Russia,
rich and wide - one would think you could continue stealing for another 1,000 years...
But at some point there comes - The End!
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One thing begins to worry me about this Greek "thing".
I read Chris Camp message in the other thread, where he says Germany sponsors many a EU country for many a year.
Really?
I didn't know. This isn't common knowledge in Russia. We think you are a union and all, of independent countries, and that most if not all countries are self-sufficient.
Now I see this isn't the case, how to say, far from reality.
Question: what are you doing?!!! eh?! Germany - sponsors?
Who pays - orders the music!
Mavrelius, tell them! Cool-brush! We have been fighting, fighting this Germany, they are now normal people - AND have computer tomographs for cats :o))) - as I strongly suspect :o)))) - AND don't invade any body. All peace and quiet, highly civilised, peaceful place.
And what do I find out? :o)))) that Germany KEEPS many a EU country, and for a long time already?!
You HAND them "Europe" - deliberately - for a long time - they DON'T TAKE - and you force-feed "Europe" to Germany!
How can one do that?
From greed! ugh.
And I was wondering - what Germany has to do with the Greek fin. crisis?
Why it's "Greece and Germany", in these articles. Why Angela Merkel - at all? It's Greece problem. "EU" problem. European problem, after all.
But NOT - Germany's.
Righly Angela Merkel tries to get out of it - anybody - IMF - Marsians - but NOT Germany. It is very un-healthy, I don't like it. Why Germany is pushed to the fore front? Aren't there any more EU countries? It doesn't matter that "Germany is the most rich". I don't believe it.
And, even if so - so what? Of all people - you can't feed places to Germany. Angela Merkel should extract herself out entirely of the discussions, or push forward someone else. Get back into the background, disappear. She rightly feels it is un-healthy. And I have a feeling others push Germany forward. Against their will.
20th century was not enough for all?
To start all over again in the 21st?
This greed is flopping down belly up to Germany - again! How long can you try patience and appetite of a country with a natural eh, inclination, to dominate in Europe. They forgot all the old times, don't know them anymore - don't want to know - and are pushed to the front again!
I can't exactly explain what concerns me in this, but something does. It is worrying. And it is very silly to juxtappose jux? ju anyway, to put like two rams face to face Greece and Germany in this. Whose clever idea? They don't particularly like each other, what is this un-healthy combination. One doesn't want to save the other, the other doesn't want to be saved by particularly them - why these two are together in it somehow, suddenly.
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I am from the Netherlands and do not personally know anyone who would either miss the Euro if it was abolished and also do not know a single person in favor of giving even the slightest guarantee to Greece.
Our dutch parliament has told the government to go and push the IMF route for Greece, as guarantees and loans are out of the question. But we know our PM is not the most trustworthy man and we know the EU is undemocratic so there is always the risk of another undemocratic shady backroom deal to stab the dutch and german taxpayers in the back.
Our message to other countries is: we do not want to give you our money any longer.
The most sickening part of this, is that the pro-EU/anti-democracy types are out in force demanding 'more integration' as the magical solution to this. But the real solution is this: dissolve the EU, abolish the Eurozone and go back to economic cooperation only. The peoples do not want political integration, which of course is why we have never been asked.
The EU is a failed political project by politicians who wanted a way to make laws and ignore their national parliaments. It was build without popular consent. We all saw the true nasty undemocratic face of the EU when it (headed by Barroso, Merkel and Sarkozy) frantically worked to get governments to abolish/abandon promised referendums on 'Lisbon', Merkel even going so far as to send a letter to Sweden's PM pleading with him not to have a referendum.
Ever closer union is over, I will not miss it and will cheer the day our national sovereignty and national parliamentary democracy is restored, and the EUSSR utterly smashed.
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Barroso is committing an illegal action, for which there is no authorization in ANY treaty. Why doesn't anyone call him on it! Thank heaven my German friends will challenge any bailout or guarantee all the way to the German constitutional court, which will likely forbid the bailout.
We the peoples of the Netherlands (I will gladly take a referendum on this question) do not want any bailout, loan or guarantee for Greece.
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EU Pris;
"EUpris: It is a better country than the UK or the USA. It is, I believe, the best country on earth."
That's why so many tens of millions of people from around the world emigrated to the USA for centuries, they couldn't get into Switzerland, their first choice instead.
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I just heard Nick Clegg (Lib-Dem Leader) give a speech in which he said "We don't know what our children will achieve. All we know is that our country [the UK] is still not a place truly fit for them to grow up in." An astonishing admission from the leader of a major political party. Just political rhetoric or truth?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/11/20100314/tpl-nick-clegg-speech-in-full-0a1c1a1.html
OK dt, you were right about the UK...but not about the US.
Yodel anyone?
http://www.drakescakesonline.com/yodels.htm [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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WA;
"Mavrelius, tell them! Cool-brush! We have been fighting, fighting this Germany, they are now normal people - AND have computer tomographs for cats :o)))"
The Germans from West Germany did evolve to a great degree into normal civilized people...or at least a good immitation of them...except for some like the ones I met at the Rathskeller in Brodeaux at the industrial trade show in 1973 who were still unfit. Those in East Germany were just like they were in 1945. No change. The West Germans must have been horrified at what their "cousins" still were and what their country was two generations earlier before the wall fell. I'm not sure they are right in the head just yet, you'd have to ask West Germans yourself.
I don't know how far West Germans go to care for their pets. In the US it is a major industry. Every techmology available to humans is available for animals as well. More than tomography, MRI scans too when needed.
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#70
Izzat like a CAT scan?
Ah'll get mah coat...
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There is no easy solution to Greece's insolvency !
I have read here some very muddled thinking , of ways out , solutions , blaming banks , Greece , Germany , Policians and the EU .
None of the countries making up the EU , either individually or collectively are in a position to bail out Greece . Any money lent to Greece would never be seen again . Contributors have written of Bonds ; just worthless pieces of paper .
I doubt that Greece can find acceptible terms with the IMF ; besides it being quite incorrect for the IMF to be aiding a European country .
Perhaps All the money paid into the EU coffers could be loaned to Greece instead of paying the CAP to France and grants to other countries .
Greece should default on its debts and return to the Drachma . Italy , Spain and Portugal should return to their currencies .
The Euro should be collectively dropped and all Eurozone countries return to their original currencies , before the EURO becomes worthless as a result of financial speculation .
The European Union should be disbanded , as it no longer serves the purpose for which it was founded . Europe should return to being a free trade area , EEC , or Commonwealth of Sovereign Nation States . Individual states should be free to repeal all the laws directed from the EU that their people do not like . We want to eat French cheeses made from unpasteurised milk , wiggley cucumbers , bent sausages .
The European Commission , Euro MPs and all the overpaid Eurocrats should be made redundant . Redundancy payments for 700,000? people might present a problem on the day . I'm sure the Brussels community would find a way , as usual ; to see that their needs were taken care of before anyone elses .
The Money saved , that Germany , Holland and Britain pay into the EU , would make each of them much better off . Britain might more easily and quickly pay off her debts .
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#63 Menedemus,
"The fact that none of the Eurozone nations is abiding by those rules simply shows what a house of cards the Euro has become."
Wrong - Luxemburg does, but that's about it :)))
#65 WebAliceinwonderland,
My understaning of how things are so far:
For the last 5 - 6 years the Greek government has been borrowing like crazy and not reporting the full story to Eurostat.
Last Oct, the people had enough of that government and voted in a new government, the new goverment reported the true state of the economy and and panic set in.
Around August before the new government took over, banks that had lend Greece billions over the last few years and knew what the state of the Greek economy started trading & beting that the Greek government will not pay its debts and the Euro will get weeker.
The new Greek government to start with did not want to take tough messures because it would cause a deep recession and also they probably though what's the big deal? Every other country (except Luxenburg) breaks the Euro rules anyhow, but everyone else told them to get their finances in order fast - faster than everyone else to calm the "markets". Last February all the EU states told Greece make those chances and we will make sure the "markets" lend money at a normal rate not loan-shark rates, we are a "union" we help each other.
Then German politicians started stating different ideas etc. and they were going against what was agreed every day for the last few months 3 different version appear on BBC (and other media) as to what type the "union" support is going to be. But it looks like its going to be nothing, so the Greeks probably think we did everything you asked us, now you are going back on your promises? The Germans probably think, you went back on you promises before us now you are just coming back to what you should have done in the first place. The French thing, ok lets put all that behind us and move on. So in reality there is no "union" that's why everyone is somewhat unhappy with the German "help" so far.
Back to the banks in the mean time they are happy to lend to Greece but at rates that are double to those of Germany etc. So, in reality if I lend you money and in the mean time I take bets that you can't pay me back, I'll make sure my bet is a sure thing by lending you at a huge rate so you can't affort to pay me back:))
The Greeks are asking for support to break that above hold the banks have on their country and that's the part they want the "union" to help them with, again Germany appears to sing to a different tune the rest of the Eurozone sings and that is the part that has annoyed most of its partners.
However it looks like that even if the German politicians don't like it, they make have to come onboard even if its screaming and kicking. Even our priminister Gordon Brown said somthing like there will be EU assistance to Greece to break that high interest rates deadloack, so something is cooking the question what???
However the BIG story is not so much will Greece or will not Greece borrow at lower rates. The BIG BIG issue here is that this crisis showed the Euro has no way of dealing with a crisis, that is the scary thing and the big story to write about. Greece to me looks as the minor player, it triggered the crisis, but who cares about it really I would like to know more about the Euro than if Greece will pay high/low interest rates to borrow.
The question is what about the Euro, the only country that qualifies for it is Luxenburg, so do they change the rules or breaking up?
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The most logical thing in all of this is for Greece to go to the IMF and move on. The "union" is not a "union" yet it still is just countries that think above all at national level. Their government should not had waited for a Eurozone solution as they can't run a two horse race let alone speak with one voice.
Next step will have to be change of the Euro rules. The Euro rules have to be changed or the Euro stops to exist as it serves no purpose as a unon currency. No country meets its criteria (other than LX)
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#63. At 11:47pm on 19 Mar 2010, Menedemus
Your account on semantic differences is wrong, but when you write that “Mr. Barroso has no authority to make a decision on a bailout for Greece” it is correct, if not evident, since the coordinated loans, he has in mind, are bilateral loans between countries in the Euro-15 and Greece. They must be national decisions, and that might by the way also be a door out for Angela Merkel.
I don’t make predictions about the decisions in next weeks meeting, among other reasons because political decisions can take surprising directions when the negotiations begin.
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....and the last point! On the other hand Greece just borrows at hight interest rates i.e. 6% and buys less weapons from the Germans, so they pay their tax payers money to bankers instead of paying weapon dealers. They are going to pay that money to someone what difference does it make? Bankers or weapons dealer?? :))
then we can all get on with something else to comment on and have a look at the state of the union instead :))
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WebAlice
Re #65
We try Alice, we try... but, our voices though not few are disparate & drowned by the waves of venal 'big-Business/big-Government' eminating from Berlin-Brussels-Paris.
Your acute sensitivity and realism for the actual situation of the EUropean Union has never been more concisely and profoundly set out:
"..You 'HAND' them EUrope.. deliberately - for a long time.. THEY DON'T TAKE - and you force-feed 'EUrope' to Germany... from greed.. Urgh!"
and,
"..flopping down, belly-up, to Germany again.."
What can one say?
It is a tragedy that Historians will write more books on than even the 2 great European Wars - - the astonishing 'belly-up' prostration of all EUrope - - for the mess of Fool's Gold they think lies in the core of Brussels!
I've written before and do repeat: It may well come to pass that once more the 'old' world will need America & Russia to rescue it - - only this time around, I am dreadfully afraid they will have given up caring (as MAII so evidently & worryingly defines) - - for the first time in 2,000 years my own UK/England Citizens are a part of the subdued, cowed masses.
It may also be the case that Your Russia & America will see that there is 'big-Business/big-Government' profits from allowing the EU to continue under 1 Nation's tutelage: Afterall, why fight it, if a better profit is to be made from simply doing deals with it!?
What EUropean 'leaders' have led their fellow Countrymen into these past 2 to 3 decades is a stain on civilised-political-philosophical existence that no one or thing will ever erase: A catastrophe for EUropean independence, culture and evolution on a par with its own exploitative conquests of the Americas and the African continent.
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The European Unionis essentially just a free trading area - there is no exploitation going on, at least not of the sort that one can witness in Africa, Asia or South America.
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Chris Camp
I note You trot out in Your #78 the same curious claim, ".. a free trading area.." ('common market') as in Your #123 Comment on the previous article, 'Germany Gets Tough Over Euro'.
I refer You to my reply #132 on that earlier contribution and this #78 to respectfully ask that You at least attempt a reply to justify Your claim the EU is just this simple, 'trading area' among neighbours!?
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CBW wrote:
"for the first time in 2,000 years my own UK/England Citizens are a part of the subdued, cowed masses."
Oh, please! If the channel wasn't so deep and wide then all you fellows would have been eating apfel strudle, shooting jews and praising the dear leader as if born to it.
This idea that the British are experts at civil disobedience is ridiculous. You people have NEVER embraced democracy. All that ever happened in England was the establishment of a parliament which gave the richest men in the land a place to argue with the aristocracy. Even now your national anthem states that a monarch is "born to reign over us".
You lot sat and watched as the USA broke free from the imperialist yoke, and took active pleasure in the subjugation of northern Ireland for a hundred years or more.
A "subdued, cowed mass" is perhaps the best description of the British people that has ever been laid down.
Even now you simply stand by and watch as your nation is finally turned into a third world slum because the single most important thing for the governments of the past 60 years has been to bring in cheap labour to drive down the price of indigenous labour.
Anyway, never mind dear old britain. We were talking about Greece.
Actually, never mind Greece either. I'm sick of hearing about the greeks and their debts.
Why don't we ever hear any news about the dutch or the danes?
I like the dutch. Small, formerly independent and beautiful. Everything a state ought to be.
I'm hoping that now that the EU has shown to be weak and incapable of defending itself, national courts everywhere will start to attack it by rejecting its authority over local law. That could happen. I mean, after all, what are the institutions of the EU going to do about that? Scream and rant from the ECJ?
Will anyone care, anymore?
As I mentioned earlier, fashions change, and hopefully the new fashion will be for smaller, more independent states with more democratic governments.
I think it is abundantly clear to everyone that in the end we work for the bankers, and so all that remains is whether we get to veto the laws made for them or whether we simply sit and watch as the central party wastes our money on grand schemes for hooligans in Brussels.
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To cool_brush_work (79):
On noticing your reply to Chris Camp...
You also could attempt to justify on your position that...
"I've written before and do repeat: It may well come to pass that once more the 'old' world will need America & Russia to rescue it"
From what we need rescuing of?
"What EUropean 'leaders' have led their fellow Countrymen into these past 2 to 3 decades is a stain on civilised-political-philosophical existence that no one or thing will ever erase: A catastrophe for EUropean independence, culture and evolution on a par with its own exploitative conquests of the Americas and the African continent."
What catastrophe?
No really, please make some justification for your views. From my perspective, thanks to the European integration, democratization and market liberalization Europe has risen from pre and post-WW2 low point on being one of the most prosperous, wealthy, advanced and free places on Earth.
Note: EU and Eurozone states have very high GDP per capita figures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
Note: Eurozone is almost as big economy as the USA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29
Note: All Eurozone countries are full democracies and place high on ranking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
So let me again ask, where do you get the idea that Europe needs rescuing or that Europe is a catastrophe when all indicators tell otherwise?
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Jukka Rohila wrote:
"To cool_brush_work (79):
On noticing your reply to Chris Camp...
You also could attempt to justify on your position that...
"I've written before and do repeat: It may well come to pass that once more the 'old' world will need America & Russia to rescue it"
From what we need rescuing of? "
Well, you know, the Finns are a threat.
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Mathiasen @#75
You worte, "I don’t make predictions about the decisions in next weeks meeting, among other reasons because political decisions can take surprising directions when the negotiations begin."
As a matter of interest, do you know how many meetings will next weeks meeting make it since this furore began?
I am not sure that any meetings involving our beloved EU and National Leaders take surprising directions so much as being agreements to defer ANY decisions to another day and make platitudes to the press corps so that it sounds like they are making progress in deciding to bail out Greece or not.
The question of wheter there is unanimity and/or solidarity between the Euro+1 nations is mute but what is clear is that there has not been any agrrement to date and yet-one-more-meeting-after-so-many-previous-meetings is a lot to pin your expectations of success upon!
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Well, it is really quite simple - the perpetual malcontents, whingers and belly-achers that call themselves "Eurosceptics" tirelessly carry on about "regulations" about the angle in which "bananas are allowed to be bent" or the size of sheets of paper - but there has never been a common market without standardisation. If you order a batch of A4 size paper, you expect a certain size, don't you? And you want a certain degree of legal protection if the seller delivers a batch of A5 sheets instead? Standardisation does not mean "prison" or "tyranny". It's simply part and parcel of a common market.
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66. At 01:28am on 20 Mar 2010, mvr512 wrote a wonderful post.
Thank you
EUprisoner
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84. At 10:39am on 20 Mar 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
"Well, it is really quite simple - the perpetual malcontents, whingers and belly-achers that call themselves "Eurosceptics" ..."
EUprisoner: I don't know if you include me in this. I do not call myself "Eurosceptic."
I don't hate Euros.
I don't hate Europe.
I don't hate Europeans.
I hate the "EU".
I am not just sceptical about it. "Sceptical" is far too mild a word. I hate it.
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53. At 9:47pm on 19 Mar 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
' "We were promised a referendum which 80 to 82% wanted but which we were denied."
So because the democratically elected government of the UK broke a promise, ...'
EUprisoner: The British government broke a promise with the connivance of those who control the "EU". It was a pan-"EU" effort. A pan-"EU" conspiracy to stitch up the people of the UK.
I hope you read post No. 66.
What these disgusting people have created is a prison.
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@democracythreat
Geographic location and history play a major role in the development of people, their wealth, its habbits, the mentality etc. Holland's geographic location, resources etc. cannot be compared historically with a mountainous country at the edges of Europe which consistently with sacrifice and courage defended the gateway of Europe from myriad attacks which fought many wars for its independence etc. I have not been short on accounting our shortcomings, our recent and not so recent mistakes and we have to pay for them (IMF, default whatever, no bail out, just say it clearly so that Greece can take its decisions); however, one has to realise that Greece is essentially and importantly defending itself, its wide coastline consisting of thousands of islands and subsequently Europe from existing geopolitical dangers. This puts extra strain to Economy. In a group of equal but different members, the members could have different circumstances which necessitates different policies. Due to proximity, geographic location northern countries have more in common. South Europe is different and Greece in particular with its proximity to the East even more different (not better or worse just different). If we were all the same the world would be so boring. I believe that this is enriching Europe but if Europe means that we all have to think like the Germans obviously this is not a union among equals. It is empirium by the backdoor. Personally, I am not happy with the way northern countries approach European matters lately and I think that a break up of Europe as we know it will become regretably inevitable sooner or later.
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ChrisCamp @#84
I regret that you tar all Eurosceptics with the the brush of seeking non-conformity. Whilst I accept that some sceptics of the EU do voice such views, my scepticism is not of that ilk and far more pragmatic.
I am sceptical of the political role of the European Union but I am not and never have been so dull witted to disagree with standardization of weights, measures, health & safety and quality throughout the European Union marketplace so long as the strived for conformance delivers excellence, best practice and high quality for the customer.
I am not a 'flat-earther', 'heathen' nor am I one who uses words like 'prison' or tyranny' to describe the EU - I merely claim the EU is a political mistake in that Europe is a collective of sovereign nation states that can work together to deliver an excellent free-trade internal market with absence of tariffs and free internal movement of peoples but the 'ever closer union' of the european nations does not mean that we have all got to agree that a Federal European-wide government is best for us all .... especially since so few europeans have ever actually been invited to make that votive choice and the result of various european treaties has delivered us all into political union without democratic majority consent.
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72. At 06:47am on 20 Mar 2010, Huaimek wrote:
" ...
The European Union should be disbanded ...
The European Commission , Euro MPs and all the overpaid Eurocrats should be made redundant . "
EUpris: They should all be sacked. Their undeservedly high pensions should be cut. They have been the willing enemies of the normal people in the "EU". Some of them should be put in jail.
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To Matiasen.
I hope you read post No. 66.:
"66. At 01:28am on 20 Mar 2010, mvr512 wrote:
... Merkel even going so far as to send a letter to Sweden's PM pleading with him not to have a referendum."
Are you aware of this letter to the Swedish PM?
Are you prepared to confirm or deny mvr512's statement?
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To democracythreat (82):
Fair enough... So let me re-phrase it, from what of do we need rescuing besides Finns?
To vassilis (88):
And why shouldn't we all think and act like the Germans? Nice orderly people.. even their language has discipline, order and strength in it. They also have shown to be hard working and dedicated to what ever task they set upon on themselves...
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HELLO SWEDISH PEOPLE!
I hope you saw post No. 66.
Is any of you prepared to confirm or deny the following statement and possibly add some information?:
" ... Merkel even going so far as to send a letter to Sweden's PM pleading with him not to have a referendum."
If possible would you please tell us about the mood in Sweden
Is there any ant-"EU" organisation in Sweden which has a site in English?
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DemocThreat & Re #80
As You very well know from previous comments I have at times fully acknowledged the debt the British Isles owes to 'geography'.
My guess is You have chosen to go down this historic cul de sac again as You really are nearing exhaustion of Your anti-English vitriol, but it makes you feel better about yourself. The idea any Peoples are experts in 'civil disobedience' is ludicrous, but then I never claimed that at all about the British-English: I wrote suggesting that after 2,000 years the British Isles is again on the political-cultural-social brink of entirely succumbing to a 'foreign' power having supreme authority over the Nation's institutions much as the Normans imposed their will & systems - - others don't see it that way - - however, You don't see anything but bile when You read/think the word 'English', so I never expect too much rationality when that mode grabs your attention! ('bloodthirtiest' race in history, 'royal prerogatives on intelligence sevices, '24yr old English' haranguing you - - ring any bells - You went on to claim it was example of why You avoided them "like the plague" - - oh no!).
Mind you, on many issues I enjoy and find informative, thought-provoking much that you write: Though on the 'English' the perspective is so skewed it is a wonder to behold!
Jukka_R & Re #81
'Rescuing' from the disaster of the European Union entirely controlled by Paris-Berlin-Brussels. The liberty You believe you enjoy is a transient thing as domination from centralised Brussels will demonstrate in this decade.
'Catastrophe' - - well, assuming (from Your many lucid & interesting contributions) You to be a part of the generation that welcomes the EU and that You do not recognise the tyranny EUropeans of former generations stood against and the present evolving tyranny of Brussels is about as good an example of the 'catastrophe' I can present in a short response.
Chris Camp & Re #84
I see yet another of the 'superior' 'pro-EU' intellects using such distinguished arguments to support their cause, e.g. "..bellyachers.." and "whingers.."!
So, please point to the 'anti-EU' Comment on these blogs that refers to straight or indeed curved 'bananas'!?
You can't, but just like those 'pro-EU' who instantly inform us of the tabloids we read, or the world wars we recall and empires we hanker after, You actually are at a loss to find genuine points in favour of the EU!
Meanwhile, unless You really think the 'A4' Paper point answered every issue on the EU (!) I am still waiting for a semblance of an explanation for Your 'common market' having so much authority & power?
I appreciate it is a bit tough, asking You to address the issues: Such as a European Court of Justice with powers to over-rule elected National Governments whose policies were Voted in by the National Electorate (anti-Democratic)!?
Just quoting irrational/plain daft examples of unfounded rumours and/or labelling those of us who do not agree with your version is so much easier, isn't it!!?
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@ Jukka Rohila
I have nothing against the Germans and personally in my work I am accused by Germans that I am more German than Germans. :-)
However if we stick to stereotypes and since in my career I have worked with many nationalities I love the flamboyancy of the Italians, the finnesse and taste of the French, the stiff upper lip of the British upon adversities etc. In my profession (a branch of exact sciences), there is the French School with an amazing ability to reach correct results based on back of the envelope non-rigorous calculations that has led to Nobel prizes, the Russian School with long theories of mathematical genious, the German School with meticulous organised experimentation etc.. All of these are useful. If we were all like Germans, we would have had stagnation. If we all started to think in the same way creativity would be impossible.
'They also have shown to be hard working and dedicated to what ever task they set upon on themselves...'
The problem with such mentalities is that the 'what ever' can become dangerous when certain ideologies prevail. Discipline is not always a virtue.
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Greek Prime Minister, George Papandreou’s threat: I might be forced to turn to the IMF…with the United States as IMF’s largest shareholder!!
My gracious, the financial elite of Wall Street must be chortling. It must have occurred to the EU that the creditors are mostly responsible for the debtor troubles (whether this be Latvia, Iceland or Greece, or whomever is next.)
I wish, I hope that the EU comes together, and decides to play chess - not with Greece, but with the IMF and the USA: They are already in a "check" position: These so-called debts are not owed. These so-called debts were man-made by USA 'gambling" with a fixed deck.
Prime Minister George Papandreou (God bless his soul!) said: “Salaried workers will not pay for this situation. We will not proceed with wage freezes or cuts. We did not come to power to tear down the social state.”
So, the PM of Greece is the first to say: Something is wrong with this debt. I will not let this false debt destroy Greece.
An IMF package, without the discontinuation of social programs, would be…well…simply not an IMF debt. The IMF is all about privatization.
The EU is just beginning to wise-up. (A little more speed would be welcomed, please.) E.g. Eva Joly, a Norwegian-French magistrate who investigated the Icelandic bank collapse, calls the need for Icelanders to repay the losses: BLACKMAIL. Pay up, or you do not get to enter the EU.
Latvia is a member of the EU. Both the EU and IMF have told Latvia to borrow foreign currency to stabilize the exchange rate. As a condition of IMF funding, the usual government cutbacks are also being demanded. Nils Muiznieks, head of the Advanced Social and Political Research Institute in Riga, Latvia, bewails: “The rest of the world is implementing stimulus packages ranging from anywhere between 1% and 10% of GDP but at the same time, Latvia has been asked to make deep cuts - a total of about 38% this year in the public sector - and raise taxes to meet shortfalls.”
I begin to perceive an ominous pattern in all of this; so, does Marshall Auerback (international strategist for David W. Tice & Associates): "The West has viewed them (emergent Soviet states) as economic oysters to be broken up, to indebt them in order to extract interest charges and capital gains, leaving them empty shells."
Citizenry, not the snobbery, elitist financial wizards, but ordinary citizens are not submitting to this tyrany.
e.g. Latvia
- Parliament debates what to do about the nation's debt
- protestors fill the streets, protesting the closing of a hundred schools and reductions in teacher salaries, signs "We are against poverty".
There are things the EU is not seeing? Is it really blind, or unwilling to see?
Greece can threaten about using the IMF, or it could get on the Argentina Plan.
What plan would that be?
Argentina defied its creditors. Guess what? Three years after a RECORD default, the country was on the road to recovery – NO FOREIGN HELP THANKS ANYWAY! The economy grew by 8%.
This WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY ACCOMPLISHMENT. So where were the economists, the media, the public attention to “Just say no!” when it comes to debt repayment where the debt has been caused by unfair imposition of IMF restrictions, or other external, intentional causes - like gambling with sovereign debt. The Center for Economic & Policy Research: of 41 IMF debtor countries - policies imposed by the IMF, including cutting spending & tightening monetary policy, were damaging. Surely the world knows this. If you touch the IMF, kiss your country, your traditions good-bye. IMF will own you.
Issuing and lending currency is the sovereign right of governments, and the EU must find a way to allow indebted European countries to retain this right even when when they join the EU. The function could be centralized (as in the indebted country asks permission from EU Cnetral to print "x" number of EUROs), but come on, EU, get your brains working!
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Vassilis
Re #95
Seldom read so many stereotypes in 1 place on these Blogs!
Even as DemocThreat's dreaded English man I have to say, 'stiff upper lip' is hardly an apt description of my countrymen's emotional personality in the modern age, e.g. death of Princess Diana, confronting paedophilia, invasion of Iraq, winning back the Ashes from Aussies etc.
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92. At 11:33am on 20 Mar 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:
" .. from what of do we need rescuing besides Finns?"
EUprisoner:
From the cost and constant interference of the "EU".
From having Ashton and van Rumpoy strutting the world stage pretending to represent us when they do not.
From the possibility that this sick, anti-democratic monstrosity will turn into a full-blown pan-European police state which will abuse the "citizens" even more than the "EU" does now. It appears to be creating the apparatus which would allow it to do that: “European Gendarmes”, databases, unacceptable powers of removal to a foreign country, “EU”-spyservice etc.
From the possibility that this monstrosity will start wars of aggression. It does appear to be constructing the political and military apparatus which would allow it to do so.
From having foreign scroungers abusing the British social security system.
From having Portuguese drugs gangs in my home area in the UK.
From the Portuguese having British paedophiles living in Portugal.
From the possible arrival of rabid animals in the UK due to relaxation/harmonisation of “EU-laws”.
From the possibility of having fascist continental policemen arresting people in the UK.
From the insult of having to see the flag of the ”EU” on council buildings. (When I went to my council offices recently, the rotten thing was gone. I hope it is gone for ever.)
From the insult of having to have the flag of the “EU”-Dictatorship on my driving licence.
From the insult of having to have an “EU” passport.
From wasteful “Euro” projects like the channel tunnel and probably the Eurofighter. Projects in which common sense has been thrown out of the window so we can all be “European.”
From a situation in which possibly the worst British Prime Minister ever can avoid the British parliament an get laws enacted through "Europe".
From having people employed here (UK) from countries in which you can buy your way to a qualification as bus or truck driver or doctor.
I am sure I have forgotten something.
The Finns are not a problem.
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To JUKKA!
I am sorry, I knew I would forget something:
1) Turkey. From the possibility of having Turkey in the "EU"./ That alone would be a reason for any country to leave the "EU". It would be a reason for any "citizen of the EU" to run out of Europe screaming.
2) The constant aggro which the "EU" causes between the people of Europe. It doesn't bring us closer together - quite the opposite.
I bet there is still something else. There is so much. The whole thing stinks.
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I do personally find the negative connotations throughout this article very unpleasant and annoying.
It is a simple statement by Mr Papandreou, in the absence of any future EU support, IMF remains the only viable option – not desirable, but essential. Why should it be interpreted as a ‘game’ or a ‘bluff’ or a ‘threat’?
Is it more selfish and inappropriate than statements such as ‘national interests first’ by Merkel?
My answer would be certainly not, however, this tone and writing style do sell in Northern Europe. It brings back memories of the pre-Olympics 2004 period and all the press negativity and bias back then. Given Britain’s current debts despite their much stronger economy, surely a much weaker economy such as Greece’s would surmount larger debts and will possible require a helping hand. I hate this attitude of kick them while they’down and if that’s the case Greece is much better off without such ‘allies’.
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92. At 11:33am on 20 Mar 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:
" ...
And why shouldn't we all think and act like the Germans? Nice orderly people.. even their language has discipline, order and strength in it. They also have shown to be hard working and dedicated to what ever task they set upon on themselves... "
EUpris: There are loads of things about the Germans which we in the UK should copy and some that we shouldn't.
One of the sad things about the "EU" is that it appears to have had a very negative impact on language learning in the UK.
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Germany’s stubborn, foxiness and irresponsible decisions dynamites the “U” of “EU”.
The WEAK LINK of the European Integration is not Greece, it IS GERMANY!
Find out, why Germany is the only country of EU having more than - € 180 b in surplus, while all other EU countries have debts and deficits.
It is true that Greece is to be blamed for its own mess, up to a certain point of course, because of lack, on a respectable way to manage its own internal affairs – corrupted politicians, administrators etc.– having its debt soaring to the present levels.
Greece is part of the EU, Med-Countries (Mediterranean), like Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Each of these countries has their own national deficit and national debt similar and even much higher than that of Greece.
If Greece’s current economic problems are related to its inefficient governance of previous years, certainly the same option does not apply exactly to the other Med-countries.
THEN how can be explained the level of their own Deficit and Debts?
The reason is that Germany during the past ten years since the circulation of Euro it did played a d-i-r-t-y and dishonest trick against to all the others family members of the EU, looking forward in a different way to dominate Europe again as ...
“DUMPing the Salaries” was the first action to take, during this period of past ten years and holding the wages frozen. By doing so, actually it “DEVALUATED” the euro only in its own internal market, so the German products got a great-great advantage, in competing against its own European partners. The increased exports of German goods to EU, where most of its volume takes place, are about 70%, plus free of any monetary risks because of the common currency – the Euro.
Secondly, Germany, limits down its imports in general and especially of products that are mostly been produced from Med-countries like olive oil, wine, fruits etc. and in the mean time is doing IMPORTS in large quantities of these same products from other countries outside of EU at prices of fraction of a euro.
Third, it exports these same products, now under a German brand name, to its own EU partners throughout a wide network of Multi-stores like, Supermarkets etc. at lower prices that the local producers cannot compete, thus condemning their national economies to ruins.
The tight economic measures that Germany applies to its own citizens, in away, limits their expenditures – despite the € 180 b. surplus – smashing the tourist industry and the economy of those med-countries.
Also, Germany is the third largest supplier of military gear, worldwide. The best of its ‘customers’ are Greece and Turkey. Did someone ever wonder why?
These are the main reasons and do not need to go any further. However, just think a little bit the true reasons, why the rating of Greece’s economy is so poor, before to blame only Greece or any other Med-country.
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The Finns are absolutely a big problem. My proposal to solve the greek debt is to sell the place to russia in return for oil credits, and they can take greece as part of the deal.
But nobody ever listens to me.
EUpris, I think your complaints against the EU are fundamentally complaints against a system of representation that can and has been bought out by big business.
Now if that is fair, it follows that your primary focus ought to be a sustained attack on the British way of life, not upon the EU.
For you to continue your criticism of the EU with such vitriol, and yet spare the UK any of the same criticism, suggest that you prefer British despotism to continental despotism.
And what is the value in that sort of position?
Like CBW and his fawning for the Queen and her firm, you can't argue against the political structure of the EU whilst singing merrily along with "born to reign over us". It has no dignity to it, nor any consistency.
And as others have pointed out, fighting the tyranny and sordid political system in Britain is much easier and more practical for you than attacking brussels. After all, if britain were to adopt a modern system of government and do away with 14th century feudalism, would that not send a shock wave through Europe, as the oppressed people of France and Germany looked on with awe at the British example?
There is only so much we can do from Switzerland. The revolution for Europe must start in the UK. And end in Finland.
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@cool_brush_work
I don't believe in streotypes. I said 'if we stick to stereotypes' because I was replying to a post refering to a stereotype. My personal opinion about many posts coming from north Europe is that they are full of false stereotypes (difference in mentality do exist, but e.g. Greeks are not lazy and corrupt), arrogance and frankly at the end of the day naivity.
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@mariannap
I agree. Gavin Hewitt's articles in general have these connotations. I also find them unpleasant and annoying. However, I am Greek, I might be considered to be biased!
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@Gillam
I agree fully with your balanced approach, but this makes uncomfortable reading to north europeans. Actually Greece (despite its many mistakes as you describe them) is getting a fundamentally bad deal from Eurozone (plus it is weak politically since it is small, has essentially no friends despite defending the sensitive South East borders of Europe). Greece does not owe anything to Germany and actually I believe is fine to default on its debts and pay nothing back. Our inept politicians won't do this but go to IMF instead.
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@ coolbrushwork and Menedemus,
thank you for your replies. I only picked up on one example that is commonly given as one of the EU's bad qualities - its tendency to overly regulate the market.
Well, if we can agree on the basic premise that a common market requires a set of common rules, then I think we are in agreement that a rather high degree of regulation is unavoidable. Standardisation is key if a common market is to function properly.
Now you cannot bring about effective standardisation without passing laws. Standardisation without binding laws is meaningless. It's a slippery slope from there. A common market requires common rules that every participant must observe. Such is the nature of every economic system that seeks to make goods and services universally (commonly) accessible. England would not have a common market if Cornwall had different laws and/or different trading standards to, say, the West Midlands.
It should have been obvious to those who chose to join the EU that being part of a common market will inevitably lead to a degree of political integration. There is no free trade agreement and no common market without laws to back up the terms the participants agreed upon. And when the free trade happens and the laws are broken, then the infringement must be punishable according to the same laws across the whole of the European Union.
Those who are now all surprised and indignant about the increasing political integration of the EU are at best naive. They should have known that being part of a common market results in an increasing amount of rules and regulations that are binding for everyone.
Oh and about the British Empire and tabloid newspapers - first of all, I didn't say anything about newspapers or the British Empire. Personally, It think it's jam-dandy to read a tabloid newspaper from time to time. I think it's jam-dandy to get nostalgic about the "good old days" of the British Empire (it's deluding yourself, but okay I guess). I'm not saying that this is what the "EU-sceptics" are doing, but I feel that getting defensive about something that hasn't even been mentioned is really building up a straw man in a discussion.
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democracythreat @#103
I am the first to agree that the United Kingdom is a very poor example of democracy in action and the UK Budget Deficit for the UK at 175 billion GBP and 12.5% of GDP puts the UK in the same bankruptcy league as Greece and Italy (fortunately our GDP is higher so we can rescue that position more quickly - if the will is there!).
However, I have to take issue with your words, "... fighting the tyranny and sordid political system in Britain is much easier and more practical for you than attacking brussels ..."
The only way the unwritten constitution for the UK may be rewritten would be (a)after a Revolution or (b)if the Members of the Westminster Parliamnet were to vote for changes. I think the world can agree that British MPs are like Turkeys and Turkeys never will vote for Christmas!
Believe me, it is far more easy for some of the British to attack Brussels with some hope - albeit forlorn - of change! ;)
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Jukka you don't get it. The EU is financially bankrupt. So is the USA so this time it can't bail Europe out of trouble again. Nor based on their recent history of mutual enmity would it be inclined to. Both are proof that the social welfare state doesn't work. It consumes far more than it produces. That is because if it didn't, life in both of them would have been comparable in comfort to the USSR. The scheme was sustained by decades of governments borrowing more than they could pay back. Eventually they accumulated collective government debt that no market no matter how optomistic will lend to any longer. President Obama's insane health care bill will generate trillion dollar deficits for America as far out as the eye can see. In addition America was burdened with most of the financial cost of fighting the cold war which cost it many trillions of dollars. It still sustains an enormous financial burden of military expense for different reasons. The curren banking crisis merely accelerated the inevitable. What these systems have in common is that they are collapsing at almost the same time.
There is a major difference however. The US has been bankrupt before and has recovered. It has a remarkable array of assets that will make that possible. Just a few are its vast natural resources, the enterprise and ingenuity of its people that government encourages with generous rewards, its attraction for the best, brightest, and most talented people from around the world as well as the tempest tossed huddled masses who not only yearn to breathe free but a have willingness to work hard, government based on practical experience not perfumed theoretical unproved doctrines (we would do well to get all lawyers out of government as they are our bane), and a unique ability to print money in great quantities without the same dire consequences for other currencies and societies who have done it in the past. Euroland and the EU have never been bankrupt before and have none of the assets America has. As a result, America will after much pain recover while Europe will not. Europe is destined to be third world. That is actually its rightful place in the order of things given it culture, its corruption, its waste, it oppression, and an irony of history what it deserves based on that history of endless crimes against humantiy.
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"European values"-lately I have been hearing that a lot and am curious what they are supposed to be?
Have heard similar things in the U.S and when one has been there even for a short while, one can see that in the form of patriotism, freedom of speech etc.
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@ Gillam - welcome to the world of capitalism, which Germany - surprise, surprise! - is a part of. Do not blame Germany for being more successful at this game than Greece. Hate the game, not the player. Germany did not play a "dirty" trick on other EU members. It just did what every capitalist country would do - minus the corruption, the laziness (retirement age at 61!), the excessive waste of funds (civil servants payed for doing nothing, sometimes for more than 20 years) and the general mismanagement of taxes.
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Aha, :o) Dear Jukks. for lunch. :o)))))
I challenge "thanks to the EU, Europe raised to prosperity from the low base of pre-2ndWW/post 2ndWW and became the most prosperous, advanced, tra la la".
1. OK you can mentally write off US money influx or write it down onto own achievements' side, type "helped because we had the brains to accept it and ability to make good use of it". (because one can always manage money the wrong way just ask us Russians :o)
This will be stretching the reality, but, OK.
However, Jukka, my main point is EVERYONE got up "from the low base of right before/after the 2ndWW". The whole world moved forward. Don't you notice I have fancy ideas re what are life essentials, type cat's MRT.
Check up Taiwan requirements. Chinese. Indian computer centres. etc.
Europe is no diffferent to other world regions, in relative terms it stayed where it always was. Better life than Russia, less abilities than USA. In 1910 Russians would take a trip to Paris after fancy clothes and "civilised cafes". To the USA to be able to develop a business out of an invention. 1905 or 2010 - what has changed? The same layout.
I think you attach extra credit to the EU "deciding and beneficial role in European development".
Look at folks around. Same people. Same A4 Germany. Sooner the sky will fall down onto the Earth than they give up on A4. Small but active Dutch. Switzerland sits aside and stares. Britons worry about what they said in the parliament yesterday.
I understood it when I quoted the song The Pair of Grey.
First I simply quoted it.
Then I thought, damn, "what my grandfather would have sung in such a situation". Why so? No songs written between 1930 and 2010 than I know of? A thousand. However when I feel lousy, I look left, look right, eh? ah? - The pair of Grey!
That's my A4.
People have changed less than you think, and countries' relative weights have changed less than you think. Get real.
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EUpris #90
You are Right , GIVE THEM ALL THE SACK !!!
Sacked people don't get pensions .
I mentioned redundancy , merely thinking of the shockingly large amount of money that would involve ; thinking of the indignation it would cause on the part of ordinary people . I have for a long time thought that Jukka Rohila works for the EU in Brussels . I have recently read someone refering him , being a man ; I have always assumed the name to represent a woman .
Jukka , No offence meant .
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And from you Germany sure should be saved. It is good and proper that you sit separated from them by Russia, tucked there into the corner. God's vision. The last thing Germany needs is get this small power energising engine Finland to wind them up. Dream eternally of uniting Germany, and never do. May be then we will all survive.
Germany has healthy inertia of a big country and you don't. They are slow to wind up. You will act recklessly and cause havoc, because you are not used to act responsively taking bigger spaces into account, no historical training, zero skill.
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Menedemus, yes, that is all true, but EUpris refuses to accept that the best way forward for the UK is to join the EU and then hope for leadership from the continentals. He wants British despotism rather than continental despotism, for no apparent reason other than patriotic fever.
Like CBW, his vile indoctrination causes him to love "the firm" like big brother, and so he is fundamentally useless as a democratic revolutionary.
The thinking folks on this blog have long since agreed that the only sensible position is to promote an EU with a truly democratic framework. That means reform into something better, rather than devolution back to the old ways.
In that sense, those who wish to see an evolution of political rights and social philosophy in Europe do wish to see a greater integration between European peoples, even including the finns. We want an ever closer union of people, and all the benefits of good relations between member cultures (note I do not require the concept of "states").
But can we expect to reform the monolithic and wholly fascist EU institutions from within? I seriously doubt it. They have been set up by the old aristocracy specifically to defeat the advances in social philosophy that thinking humanists desire.
For my preference, Europe needs grass roots movements which devolve political power away from huge centralized party based institutions, and towards local and regional government structures which encourage direct democratic participation of a voting public. Once those regional and local structure have defined themselves according to modern democratic principles, only then will European cultures be fit for an ever greater "union".
The exception would be a pan European movement which specifically devoted itself to the idea of democratic participation across the regions: to the idea of a complete reform of the system of representation which has become so corrupted in recent decades.
I believe such a movement could arise if the small business owners of Europe unite, and isolate the danger to themselves which is posed by large scale centralized party based market interference.
Centralized socialist party interference in the market destroys the welfare of small business people: we saw that in the soviet union. But just as surely, centralized corporate party interference in the market destroys the welfare of small business people as well.
It is the centralized interference in the market for the sake of party sponsors, be they corporate owners or party sovereigns, which destroys liberty and thus economic prosperity on a local level.
So to my mind there must be a push by small people, by small business owners, to enshrine their liberty across europe by enshrining their mandate for political power via democracy. Real democracy, not corporate representation passed off as democracy.
In other words, we need to copy the doctrine of the early USA, and place political power in the local middle class, and to adopt federal agreements which prevent the concentration of power in bogus "public" institutions.
And that aim is not assisted by British fawning upon an ancient and ridiculous system of divine rule by monarchs and their banks.
Are you listening, CBW?
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We know Germans. Not Germany, Germans. We have them around for 300 years, Volga German settlemens, half St.Petersburg. Most Gynealogical society groups in St. Petersburg are German groups, built upon surnames.
(Which reminds me I have an invite for a meeting on the 22nd.)
My mum's best friend is Atalla, named after some warrior or something, by her father. a very unusual name, and a very good big substantial lady.
My grandma's brother, "Uncle Petr" married a German pre-war, to cover her up by his communist party ticket, when persecution began and un-healthy in-raids were starting at Germans in Russia in 1940. My mum was brought up in that family, by that German lady. She was eternally thankful to her.
I mean - there are Germans around here, and they are distinct and features are known.
And I swear all nations have their weak and strong points, and - come a certain lay-out - A German will act like a German, a Russian - like a Russian, a Britt like a Britt and a Finn - like a Finn.
Nobody ever Jukka yet acted when pressed "reasonably", "sensibly" from some clever "considerations". People are not rational, otherwise no one would buy Pepsi Cola and divorced and smoked and made war and all. :o)
(ask a marketing manager about "consumer behaviour" :o)
(if all were reasonable - business would have stopped flat and nobody would buy 90% of goods.)
And when chips lie on the European table in a certain way, are casted a certain way - Germany will act like Germany. They might not want to - but they will! :o)))) some mechanisms get switched on, automatically. And from that point on all seems reasonable to them. By "protestant ethics", by "good housekeeping logic",m by I don't know what - justification will be found.
Type - "so, we own it all. let's arrange things reasonably and responsibly, and for the common good, and so that it is good and proper and organised the good German way (for we don't know any other :o))))
And then only a Stalingrad battle will stop this reasonable organisation of the space. Save God, and all - but - twice already - it required "something of the kind". What makes you so sure it won't be the same the third time? Who , exactly, became so different?
That is the way the chips on the table are being arranged now.
What cool-brush understands and I do.
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DemocThreat is quite right: In the end UK/England Citizens must decide about these matters.
They (some Brits/me at some times) do sing, "..long to reign over us..
What really gets in his craw though and so many critics of Britons & their way of life is that for all his & their supposed political sophistication it's not upto him or EUropeans to decide how Britons will govern themselves!
In some ways it really tickles my funny bone to see 'pro-EU', ambivalent DemocThreat & EU leadership so exercised by what & how the British People go about their political-cultural-social lifestyle.
It is an affront to their perception of what is correct in a 21st Century society to see on the whole educated, sensible, modernist Britons apparently tugging-the-forelock to a system that would not be out of place in the 17th Century. That those same Britons who accept a personage dwelling in Buckingham Palace as some sort of enveloping majesterial representative whilst they go about using mobiles, internet, Mp3, channel tunnels etc. just does not seem rational.
But then, nobody asked EUrope to do the same, did they!? So, why all the fuss?
Well, because EUropean leaders cannot see theirselves in-charge whilst some old lady in a rather modest sort of 'palace' is still "the person" they all want to be presented to whenever they cross over the Channel!
As I say, it tickles me: Envy & annoyance all in one image is a funny old touchstone!
They want and will try any connivance on Britons to make them fall, as most of EUrope has, under the spell of Brussels - - it gets right up their intellectual, modernistic, venal noses - - the anachronistic UK/England Monarchial system!
Well, no actually I am just being facetious on that point: No, what really irks and causes their ire is that the UK/England continues to thrive despite much of its Population's pronounced loathing for the EU, inspite of it being a set of relatively small Islands with limited natural resources, and even though it is divided amongst its own rival Peoples.
If G.B. really were the god-awful basket-case place some on here try to imply then there'd be wholesale departures every hour from all ports & airports: Of course, as everyone knows, especially Brussels, that is far from being the case. People from across the World attempt entry to the EU Nations, and among them are several hundred thousand (some estimate a million p.a.) who pass through the rest to the UK/England - - for all the difficuties that creates it is also a back-handed compliment.
I mean, how come those people desparate for a 'better economic life' & the more educated ones too, are opting for a Nation seemingly ruled by a Royal Family!? It does not add up, does it! Why would anyone enter the UK/England when the rest of Continental-EUropean Union Europe has so much more to offer!?
It's a puzzle, aye? Except, of course, the UK/England is not ruled by an aristocratic 'firm' and is not led by the nose by a Westminster Parliament and those refugee-settlers/immigrants have the nouse to know it, even if clever people like DemocThreat don't & even if even cleverer Brussels' EUrocrats try to undermine it. What does that say about republican-federalised EUrope?
I'm first to admit the British have been dreadfully betrayed in recent decades by their 'body-politic' who have been tempted and given way to the gravy-train of enrichment Brussels has available: The UK/England is facing the most dangerous decade since WW2 - - without a Referendum on membership there is a possibility UK/England will whither away into an off-shore region of Greater EUropa, but it may also rebel against such an end to 2,000 years of Islands' life - - either way, unless a Referendum on membership is finally offered to Britons, I predict a tragedy.
That British Isles success story for many centuries is anathema to the 'pro-EU' & to likes of 'anti-English' DemocThreat: They want UK/England beholden to the EU and acknowledging there is no UK/England without an EU - - something of course that Brussels strives to achieve at every duplicitous turn - - if Paris-Berlin-Brussels gets its hands on London's Financial centres then it will have in fairly much every sense of domination have achieved that goal.
The clock is ticking down fast: The ratification of the Lisbon Treaty without any Citizen Mandate was an enormous blow to the already fragile condition of Britain's version of Democracy - - hence my belief the next 2 years are the determining factor for decades ahead - - as Paris-Berlin-Brussels close-in on total control of the Economic-Fiscal policy of the UK/England that they already have on the other EU24, so prospects of escaping the tyranny diminish with every hour.
All that said, I'm off now to download the whole Camelot musical - - it has a certain lyrical presence about it:
'In short there's simply not
A more convenient spot
For happy ever-aftering
Than here in Cam... (UK/England)'
And that's despite living in Finalnd these last 3 years (apologies J_R)!
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> 16. At 1:38pm on 19 Mar 2010, Christos wrote: "On the other hand, my opinion (and I hope of others as well in the EU), is that the EU is a team that competes with other teams in the world (US, BRIC countries, OPEC etc). If our star player, no mater how good he is, plays a solo game and never slows down with the rest of the team, then our team is doomed to loose the match."
To extend the football metaphor a little further; - if a team member does not perform to the standards of the others in the game, then that player gets kicked out of the team and does not get to wear the shirt.
Greece has been indulged by other members of the EU because of the symbolic part it has played in European history. It was something that others in the EU have been prepared to do in the past in the interests of the Community. Greece has been happy to enjoy the fruits, but has not done enough to meet the standards required of the players.
The structural weaknesses of the Euro have being exposed because of the debt crisis, and so actions must now be taken to quickly prevent a wider failure. It is unfortunate, but that is the nature of the game. If a member of the Euro club puts the currency at risk due to it's fiscal recklessness, then others in that club are right to point out that the member is a danger to the currency and to the economies of the other members.
Assistance, within the scope of what is permitted, has been offered to Greece. It was the Greek PM's choice, once back in Athens, to criticise what was offered as a lack of effort on the part of the EU. Subsequent fiscal tightening in Greece has shown were the lack of effort lay.
Germany is thus both justified and right to take the stance it has. I am sure others are of the same opinion. There is a shared interest in protecting the Euro from further damage. Germany is playing it's part in trying to prevent that. That interest is in common with protecting it's own economy and that of it's principle expert market.
If Germany and the other members of the Euro club want to stay in the game it is both right and necessary that they address the weaknesses. it is therefore appropriate that a process should exist to eject members from that club as a last resort.
Greece will probably get to stay in the Euro, not by it's own virtue, but because the damage to the club and to the other members would be too great if it did not. Greece is fortunate that it has come near the front of the queue, and that it's problems are affordable to fix. Fixing the problems of other, less reckless players, would not be affordable if the problem was allowed to spread. Greece is therefore also fortunate that keeping it in the team is the lower cost option to the rest of the club. The Euro Club is therefore justified in calling on Greece to bring it's solo game to an end, and to shape up if it wants to stay in the team.
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@Chris Camp
'Hate the game, not the player'
I agree with this. Greece certaily played wrongly this game.
This game is not for the benefit of the people though. I am not so sure that German people live very well (we had Germans saying this in previous discussions). Their salaries had to stay low to be able to support exports, they have not seen much benefit from this. So, who benefits from this system? bankers, super-rich capitalists, politicians, high level bureaucrats etc. Not the middle class and especially the large lower middle class. I think we need to make drastic changes to this type of capitalism. It is more a feudal system than capitalism. Workers are treated as serfs. This is not good in my book and it should not be taken for granted. 'This is the system live with this' has limits. We have to demand a scrutiny of this system. Perhaps we will need to revolt against this system if the elit does not change it (it suits their interests nicely, we are fed myths all the time). We need change in favour of the people. I don't mean socialism, it could be a different way of free economy away from the collusion of bankers, politicians and super-rich aristocracy. I think this is in the heart of European problems because Europe has been built by this corrupt international elit for the benefit of the elit and not for the benefit of the people who naively has started resorting to blaming each other for laziness and corruption. People are not lazy and corrupt. The elit is.
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@Lorentz
But it did. Greece has taken all the unpleasant but necessary measures requested by the rest of the players. However, spreads after Chancellor Merkel speach have gone up which paradoxically makes a bail out or default more likely (both will damage Germany I think). Germany seems to be making everything possible politically to make Greece's position more difficult while it knows that it cannot oust this player out of team because it is against rules (we have to abide by the rules, even for offenders there are rules) it implies that it could do in the future (somehow). This nullifies Greek government's efforts to persuade the markets to drop spreads which will save Greece (I believe this is possible because of austere package, new legislation for taxation of everybody, changes to pensions etc. there are moneys to help public finance). However if spreads do not drop, failure is inevitable.
Minor comment. I know that I make many mistakes in English but allow me a correction: it's-> it is,
its (without apostrophe, possesive adjective such us my, your, her etc.
so Greece's solo game -> its solo game, Germany's part -> its part.
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Chris Camp
Re #107
I agree you never mentioned 'tabloids' or 'empire', and apologies for not making it clear (though why you felt the need to call us any names eludes me? Do I advance my cause calling you a 'lousy apologist' for the EU? So, how does 'whinger', bellyacher' assist you?).
Basically, if you use these Blogs enough it is easy to see your fellow-pro-EU-travellers have on too many occasions been rude for it to be just coincidental.
It is also incredibly limiting of you to say all 'anti-EU' are short-sighted for not having realised about 'political union': As the UK joined in 1972 and the Referendum confirming membership was in 1975 what about the one-third UK population not born and the millions of immigrants - - do they not get a say at the time? An 1839 UK commitment to guarantee the neutrality of Belgium parly led to G.B. involvement in WW1 - - those millions of 'tommies' weren't even born - - are you seriously stating it is the same in the 21st Century for Britons whose parents & grandparents thought the Common Market (EEC) was a useful idea!?
All that aside: When I had finished reading your various bits and pieces of propaganda on behalf of the EU and expecially about Germany I understood exactly what You meant by, 'Straw Man', and believe me a lot of us on these blogs will have taken the same view!
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@ Vassilis #106
I had no intention to cause uncomfortable reading to north Europeans or to anybody else. The distinction is that the northern countries of Europe are mostly highly industrial and cattle-raising.
All these are products, that Germany does not have any need to import anything.
So the Med-countries are the ones that feel the pain from Germany’s irresponsible decisions to limit its imports.
I agree with you that Greece does not owe anything to Germany. Instead Germany owes a lot to Greece, but this an option not appropriate to discuss at the moment.
As far as the inept politicians are concern, I think, the new government needs a little time. It is obvious that this Prime Minister, George Papandreou, has the true respect all of his colleagues in EU. There is a strong political desire with a strong popular support, to put an end to this mess, which has lasted for so many decades. There are strong signs that something is changing, finally.
I truly believe that this crisis is THE opportunity for major changes in a good direction of course, for Greece and the EU as well. Regarding the IMF, I personally never consider it as serious option at all.
@ Chris Camp #111
Thank you for invite me to the world of capitalism, which Germany is a part of it. By the way in case you do not know, I want to complement you that Greece is part of the same world as well.
I never blamed or hated Germany for been so successful and I wonder where did you find any sign of it in my post. As a matter of fact, I truly admired all the achievements that it has obtained.
However, when a EUnion is form by many members, I think that it is dishonest to try enforcing your own rules to the others by force. Then tell me what is the point to form the EU in the first place?
The EU integration was based to Political, Economical and Monetary union. Was Germany that during these years, screw all the others by holding tight solely to stability program of the monetary option. Without a common political and economic policy the life o Euro is a matter of time. Are you so blind to see that? What is happening today, prove my point.
I still insist that Germany played dirty. You did not give me though, an explanation how the deficits and debts of all other members of EU and especially of med-countries were justified.
Please do. Put your opinion clear, as I put mine.
Regards
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I think the EU will cobble together a hodge-podge of pieces to bail out Greece to defer the inevitable day of reckoning. The EU Central Bank will mint a few billion Euros to lend Greece, the EU Central Bank in cooperation with the rest of the EU will collect an emergency fund, a sort of ad hoc EMF, the IMF may lend some, and some banks will have their arms twisted by various governments, especially German Banks. In all they will just make it to the 25 billion needed. Harsh restrictions on Greece's government spending will be imposed, there will be strikes and grumbling but in the end, they'll skate by...this time. But this will only buy time until the next one. How many such crises can Europe get through? Not as many as there are coming. Not given their size and how many of them are out there we already know about. If some pop up that we don't know about then it will just make the K2 into Everest. Ultimately the European project doesn't have a chance to survive. It may be towards the end of this year or in 2011 or in 2012 but its end is coming.
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#91. At 11:29am on 20 Mar 2010, EUprisoner209456731
Actually I did not see it. The character of #66 made me go on before I got to:
“... Merkel even going so far as to send a letter to Sweden's PM pleading with him not to have a referendum."
Having a sound scepticism against populistic views I would like to have a source for this information. If mvr612 did not make it up, there must be one somewhere, and a source is a precondition before I make further comments.
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70. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
...... Every techmology available to humans is available for animals as well. More than tomography, MRI scans too when needed.
71. Scotch-git wrote:
Izzat like a CAT scan
Ah'll get mah coat...
Now that's funny!
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I have no financial training whatsoever but for the last few years I've read a lot about economics due to the crisis. So, I wonder if any of you that has more knowledge on the matter, point out to me the faults of my reasoning.
When a country issues a bond, then the initial buyer charges an interest over the price of that bond. I assume that the interest rate has to do with the losses due to inflation of that bond's currency plus a reward (profit) for the risk the investor takes choosing that specific country's bond over others. After the initial buy, the bonds are free to trade in a secondary(?) market at various prices on the the risk part of the profit. If a new investor feels that the risk has lessened (due to an austerity program), he may buy that bond with less interest. If a holder feels that the situation is getting worse, then he may sell at a loss to investors that demand higher interest (risk taking). All that till the bond matures and the bond issuer pays the initial price (bond value plus interest).
All that make sense, if a government bond is something you simply buy and sell or put at the drawer for safe keeping. The bond pays only the initial price plus the original interest, no matter how many people trade it since maturity and in what price. What makes no sense in that view, is the really long term bonds like the 30 years US bond. If I can read the NYTimes charts right, then the 30 year bond has an around 4.5% interest rate. In the above example, buying a 30 year old bond is idiotic. The inflation rate alone over 30 years will decrease the real value of that bond significantly. An 1 dollar bond that matures today, was bought back at 1980. Do you remember what you could buy with 1 dollar back at 1980 and what now? If you invest 1 dollar now, you will get 1.04 dollars in 2040. This is insane if a bond is only a tradeable item.
What really makes a bond a lucrative investment, is that you can deposit that bond to the central bank of the country that issued it and borrow multiple of times (leverage) the value of that bond in the local currency to invest in the local market. So, with that 30y US T-bond as collateral, you can borrow lots of money from the Fed for the next 30 years and make lots of (hopefully profitable) investments. And that looks good for everyone. The government got some money for its needs and your investments bring prosperity both to you and the country.
I hope I get it right so far.
So, in the liquid government bond markets, we have freely traded bonds and bonds in central banks deposits backing investments. The problem with the free trade market is that sort term profit feels always good. Who can stop the “dreaded evil speculators” forming shadow cartels that play with bond interest rates destroying economies in the name of sort term profit? Why not put sort term profit against long term profit.
Why not impose a haircut at central bank level. Instead of accepting the maturity value of a bond (the initial price plus the interest) as collateral, the central banks can only accept only the initial real value without the interest. The money that the government actually took. That can create real competition on the bond markets. A high initial interest rate is good for sort term profit while a lower interest rate in the same bond is better for long term investment.
Let me give you an example. The UK government issues 100 pound bonds. The sort term trader is interested in interest rate and wants the bond at 6%. The UK government gets 94 pounds in that case. The long term investor is interested in leverage and wants the same bond at 2%. The UK government gets 98 pounds. Right now the BoE accepts the bond at 100 pounds for collateral. If the BoE accepted only the money the government took as collateral, then the 2% (98 pound) bond is far better than the 6% bond (94 pound), since that 4 pound difference can leverage and invested multiple times over the life of the bond. That puts at odds those that want to invest in the UK with those that want to speculate on the UK. Free market competition at it's best.
Same with Greece. Right now, speculators feel happy with their 6% interest. No need for someone to offer a better rate. But if a 3.5% Greek bond means more euros for someone to invest in France, then that someone may offer that price driving Greek interest rates down. And with not a single cent of German taxpayers money.
You may ask, what if the rating agencies turn the Greek bond to garbage and the ECB stops accepting them as collateral? Well that is stupid. An Eurozone irregularity that must be fixed. Would any other central bank in the world stop accepting it's government bonds no matter what? Will the Fed stop accepting US T-bonds in the (insane) case that some rating agencies rate them as junk.
Well here it is. It is rather simplistic as an idea, but it is only a draft and I'm not an economist. You get the point. I also got somewhat interested in economics over the last few years and I really want to learn where I might be wrong in my reasoning. So, what do you think?
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CBW writes:
"It is an affront to their perception of what is correct in a 21st Century society to see on the whole educated, sensible, modernist Britons apparently tugging-the-forelock to a system that would not be out of place in the 17th Century. That those same Britons who accept a personage dwelling in Buckingham Palace as some sort of enveloping majesterial representative whilst they go about using mobiles, internet, Mp3, channel tunnels etc. just does not seem rational.
But then, nobody asked EUrope to do the same, did they!? So, why all the fuss?"
Hang about, CBW. Do you recall an event named the second world war?
At the culmination of which, half of europe was occupied by the soviet union and the other half by the American and British military forces?
This is not a slight point. Western Europe was occupied and forced to adopt the westminster system just as much as eastern Europe was occupied and forced to adopt the soviet system.
Greece is an excellent example of the violence which was used by the US and British in order to force their way of thinking onto the local european population. Thousands, ten of thousands, of greek people were murdered by the secret police in Greece, to support a corporate monarchy preferred by the British and US masters.
One of the driving forces behind the creation of the EU is precisely Germany's status as a corporate colony of the USA, and huge numbers of French are equally appalled at the way their economy is geared to suit the US world emporium.
To argue that "nobody asked the europeans to adopt the corporate sponsored system of representation developed by the british" is a complete rewrite of history.
The US military still occupies Germany and therefore western Europe. NATO is nothing if not the military force devoted to guiding European political systems.
It is precisely the control of the various western european governments by the "international" corporate world that has driven hordes of socialists to unite behind the EU institutions.
Nobody asked the European states to adopt the sham democracy of the westminster system, that much is true. They told these states to do so, and they did so at the point of a gun.
The British empire has exported fascism (I mean the technical term: corporate control of government, not "nazi" fascism) by force for hundreds of years with the USA taking up the slack post WW2. The economic benefits of the owners of the Anglo-american banks are still profoundly important to the welfare of the UK, and to the US.
Corporate sponsored systems of representation ARE enforced by anglo military power, and they ARE enforced despite the will of local peoples all over the globe.
And hence it would be delightful if the British people could develop real democracy in their own country first, because then at least the remaining countries in their corporate commonwealth could at least see that real democracy is possible under the common law.
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Mathiasen wrote:
"... a source is a precondition before I make further comments."
You can only imagine my relief.
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@Lorentz (118),
You may find that hard to believe but I agree with you. The player that keeps the team down must not play and probably kicked out of the team.
You people like criticising Greece and our faults but you're forgetting something. Those are policies of governments that rule over us. If you feel that they stole from you and spend it away, imagine how do we feel. Those governments steal from us every day of our lives. And don't tell me that we can vote them off. We have the same choices Britons have to find a government that will give them their referendum.
And you know why they did it? Because they were sure that no one can kick them out of the EU. Because even the mighty Germany didn't meet the euro criteria. Because your polititians are doing the same but more subtle. Crooks solidarity at it's best.
Yes kick them out I say. If only we could find an impartial couch to decide who's in and who's out.
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@ 117. At 2:26pm on 20 Mar 2010, cool_brush_work
Re "They want and will try any connivance on Britons to make them fall, as most of EUrope has, under the spell of Brussels - - it gets right up their intellectual, modernistic, venal noses - - the anachronistic UK/England Monarchial system!"
In case you forgot, a lot of continental EU countries are still monarchies as well. Spain, Luxemburg, Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands and even Belgium the capital of which is Brussels, you know, that part of that great axis of evil :)
Your juxtaposition of UK vs rest of Europe fails. I'm sorry!
Re "That British Isles success story for many centuries is anathema to the 'pro-EU' & to likes of 'anti-English' DemocThreat: They want UK/England beholden to the EU and acknowledging there is no UK/England without an EU - - something of course that Brussels strives to achieve at every duplicitous turn - - if Paris-Berlin-Brussels gets its hands on London's Financial centres then it will have in fairly much every sense of domination have achieved that goal."
In case you forgot. It was the UK that begged to become member of the EC, not the other way around. A very peculiar act for a country that supposedly is a succes story. Obviously the UK leaders saw the UK needed the european integration. Obviously you wilfully ignore this historic fact.
Re "as Paris-Berlin-Brussels close-in on total control of the Economic-Fiscal policy of the UK/England that they already have on the other EU24, so prospects of escaping the tyranny diminish with every hour."
You know, this Paris-Berlin-Brussels axist won't become a reality no matter how many times you keep repeating the same conspiracy-theory nonsense. And you again have shown you have no clue whatsoever on the workings of the EU. The reason why there is a crisis now in the eurozone is exactly because there is no economic and fiscal policy on EU level. Yet you manage to speak of an economic and fiscal policy applicable to the EU24. No doubt will you be able to give us some examples of this policy.
No doubt of course! Just as we are used to seeing your bold claims backed up by simple facts! Quod Non!!
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'You may ask, what if the rating agencies turn the Greek bond to garbage and the ECB stops accepting them as collateral? Well that is stupid. An Eurozone irregularity that must be fixed. Would any other central bank in the world stop accepting it's government bonds no matter what? Will the Fed stop accepting US T-bonds in the (insane) case that some rating agencies rate them as junk.'
I am no economist also. However, it seems to me that during this never ending saga ECB although European has not behaved like one. It has behaved as a North European CB.
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Nah, I don't think so Vassili.
North Europe has as much to loose as we in this case. ECB economists, in my opinion, acted like dreamers living in their imaginary perfect free market math world. The way they reacted shows that they have started to wake up to the real world. Slowly but they do.
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#130
Again, totally, utterly, completely without foundation and yet written with that distinct 'superiority' of perspective that never fails to miss the point!
Hadn't forgotten a thing and in response to specific points raised by DemocThreat at #80 & #115 my comment on UK & Monarchy was wholly appropriate.
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CA #126;
Your third paragraph is where you went wrong. If I buy a bond today that was issued ten years ago and pays 4.5%, it doesn't matter that $1000 then is worth only $500 today in ten year's ago buying power. The closer it gets to maturity, the sooner I get the $1000 back. If the rate of inflation goes up and interest rates with it, the value of that bond goes down and visa versa. If I bought a new 30 year bond that paid only 2.5% for the same risk of the US government defaulting (an impossibility) then I would pay a premium for that old bond to compensate for the additional income at the same risk than I'd otherwise get. If today's 30 year bonds are paying 6.5% I'd be able to buy it at a discount because I could get better returns for that risk from new bonds. Since US treasury bonds are traded around the world 7 days a week, 24 hours a day and entail no risk, this is usually the lowest of all interest rates when adjusted for currency exchange rate fluctuations. The market usually bids on long term bonds what it feels long term interest rates would be plus some amount for profit. If you are going to lend money then you want to come out ahead in the long run and have more buying power than you started off with. Therefore interest rates on bonds vary inversely with expected inflation. So even though the $1000 will buy much less, when added to the interest that will accrue it will still turn a profit if inflation is as expected. As the bond reaches maturity, its market value will approach $1000 since that is what you will get for it. If you look at bond tables, you will see the current value the market will pay for each bond today depending on when it was issued and how many years it was issued for.
My attorney once told me proudly around 1991 that he'd bought 2 year Greek bonds in Greek Drachmas that Greece guaranteed at 24% return. When I asked him a few years later how he'd made out on it he just scowled. I said what happened, didn't you get your money and interest? He said yes but the Greek Drachma had dropped 24% in its exchange rate against the US dollar. So in effect they'd gotten to use his money for two years for free. That lenders will buy short term US Treasury obligations for nearly zero percent interest, it means they are more worried about getting "return of investment" than "return on investment." US Treasury securities are considered by markets to be better than gold for long term reliability in getting your money back. This is where Greece's and the Euro's problem lies. If the markets feel they will not get paid back, they will sell their Greek bonds for whatever they can get for them and buy US Treasuries instead. As this happens, the value of the Greek bonds falls and more people beocme desperate to get out and switch. This snowball effect could bankrupt Greece overnight making it impossible for Greece to borrow at all. If the ECB tries to prop up the Greek bonds with Euros, it could still be swamped by the market worrying and fleeing in anticipation that the worst is yet to come. As the market for trading currencies and bonds is far greater than all the central banks in the world combined, the worst case nightmare scenario is that the Euro will crash too. IMO this is very likely but not necessarily just yet.
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@Christos
If I remember correctly at some point the ECB reminded *publicly* that if there is further downgrading it won't be accepting Greek bonds. This led to further increase of spreads making downgrading more probable. Can you imagine the central bank of a countryto make such public announcement? I think the only way to justify Merkel's speech which had the same effect is that they have decided for domestic reasons and perhaps of reasons of paradigm to send Greece to IMF.
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Christos, @129
"you kick them out I say"
don't even hope.
There is a saying "a raven to a raven - never will peck out the eye".
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Ranting and railing against the banking system is not only pointless, it's rediculous. It is what it is. Every nation that claims to be a democracy or even if it is a despotism looking out for its own interests has a government that defines the rules of banking in its own country. If it signs treaties agreeing to conform to international standards that is its business. If it audits or fails to audit banks to determine if they conform to its rules that is also its business. If you want someone to blame for any transgressions you feel your banks have committed which led to the demise of your nation's economy, blame your politicians, not the bankers. The bankers only did what the politicians let them get away with. If the politicians are corrupt, blame those who do not prosecute them.
dt, I'm surprised at you. I'd have expected your posting to come from the likes of ghost of sechuan chicken dinner, not from a lawyer who ultimately makes his money directly or indirectly from banks playing fast and loose with international law happily shielding every criminal in the world who has money to hide or launder for a nice fat profit.
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@133. At 5:12pm on 20 Mar 2010, cool_brush_work
Re "
Again, totally, utterly, completely without foundation and yet written with that distinct 'superiority' of perspective that never fails to miss the point!
Hadn't forgotten a thing and in response to specific points raised by DemocThreat at #80 & #115 my comment on UK & Monarchy was wholly appropriate."
Now please, just give us examples of the economic and fiscal policy of paris-brussels-berlin applicable to the other EU24.
Can't be any harder than postulating the existance of such policies if they exist as you say they do?
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DemocThreat
Re #127
"Remember WW2.."? Well, of course for J_R it is all rather passe, however it does have some resonance for me & I dare say quite a few others.
Hmm, Washington or Moscow?
That was a tough one for the Peoples of Europe at the end of WW2: According to Your logic they got ambushed from 2 sides and never got the chance to make a choice of their own!
So, the 'liberation' from fascism by the great & powerful 'western' and 'eastern' forces was all part of some ploy to gain mastery of Europe and not in reaction to the climactic events of the 1933 to 1941!?
Boy! When You write You avoid the english-speakers "like the plague" You really do mean You'd go to any lengths at all, wouldn't you!?
Unfortunately for You and your 'anti-English speaking' peoples views of the US-UK & Commonwealth Armed Forces I believe the following points sort of undermine your claims.
The hordes of refugees in 1944-46 were 90% heading 'west' towards the liberating Capitalist-Democratic forces.
Despite their immensely brave efforts & liberating drive west there is hardly any genuine evidence as yet of the Peoples of EUrope issuing invitations for the Red Army to set-up Barracks anywhere in '44-'46.
The Berlin Airlift was to save the 'west Berliners' for Democracy.
The 'uprisings' in East Germany, Hungary, Czechslovakia, Poland were oddly all in that 'east': With Your version You would think the History books would record some sort of 'uprising' against those accursed colonising Yanks & perfidious British (or, is it really your premise, the EUropean Union was a rebellion!? Oh please, do confirm that I am right about the impression You gave in #127 because it would be a brand new footnote for every post-WW2 Historian of Europe)
The Berlin Wall was to keep Democracy from the 'east Berliners'.
As for Greece's tragic WW2 & post-WW2 experiences: Greeks were starved, pillaged, murdered and exploited in their thousands (to say nothing of the entirely lost Greek Jewish community) under the brutal fascists (& it has to be said, by some Greeks in 'authority' under the fascists).
The brave, but wholly politically divided anti-fascist Greek resistance by 1944-45 were already doing each other as much damage as they did to retreating fascist forces.
By 1945-46 Greece had replaced Turkey as the perceived 'soft underbelly' of Europe by the 'west' and the 'east'.
Greece was the only nation of the Balkan region the US-UK could expect to successfully gain a political-military foothold and build on that situation: So, it is undeniable the UK (backed by USA) Government ordered its Armed Forces to assist the Greek Government-in-exile & 'pro-capitalist-west-democratic' resistance movement to fiercely quell and kick-out the 'pro-communist-russian' resistance movement.
You, with your twisted logic of all things 'english'/'english-influenced' may well have preferred Europe under the warm, cuddly Uncle Josef's Kremlin subordinates: However, nothing suggests more than 1 in a million (& that's being generous) agreed then with your interpretation of what was best for Europe.
"..Western Europe was occupied and forced to adopt the Westminster.."!
Yeah right! It is all clear now: In 1945 if those wretched Brits hadn't been in Europe backed by those equally treacherous Yanks those European Citizens could have had a free vote & who knows how many millions would have opted for the 'hammer & sickle' lifestyle?
Enough! Enough to make a grown-up wonder how the World stayed on its axis with all that nastiness from the US-UK!
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@126 Nik /further to your post on the previous thread/
Nik, I thank you for your detailed analysis. Unfortunately, my knowledge in this field is strictly limited to what I know through personnel experience and personnel impressions I have collected when being on missions /in my youth I travelled mush for 12 years as a sailor; later on I started a new business and for the last 25 years I have been working as a dealer/. You know friend, the businessmen are not intellectuals, nor scientists. They are clever only in their field of activities… True, I love history because my late father was a prominent scientist in the field, and, I and my brother we inherited several thousands of volumes of first class historic works. It’s amazing to read about events that happened, say, two hundred years ago, according to the same logical reasons as if they are happening right now…
Well, it’s very hard for me to contest your system of classification of the predominant cultural groups of old Europe. What I know is that Ancient Greece is the mother of the Christian civilization, which is why I I would not put the Greeks in the Mediterranean cultural group. They are privileged to be in a special, separate place, along with the Jews and the inhabitants of Ancient Rome. I would put the Latin people apart from the Anglo-Saxons, the German/Scandinavians and the Slavs. And maybe, I would go further in distinguishing the Slavs who are catholic from the Slavs who are orthodox. Of course, the language and the faith are not the final distinction between the different enthuses that inhabit Europe. What I know from our old books and from my grand fathers is that in each cultural group there must be a leader, no matter whether the said group is totally committed to some political entity. For instance, for the orthodox people, Russia is still believed to be a banner, no matter whether that fact will pleased to the Ankara people or to the Washington people, and so on…
You see Nik, we are human being with our own historic and cultural roots, traditions, beliefs and hopes. To change that entire cultural heritage through an aggressive propaganda or diplomatic activities is something very difficult. Regards
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103. At 1:13pm on 20 Mar 2010, democracythreat wrote:
" ...
For you to continue your criticism of the EU with such vitriol, and yet spare the UK any of the same criticism, suggest that you prefer British despotism to continental despotism. ..."
EUpris: I am not uncritical of the UK. BUT we do need parliament in the UK. We do not need the "EU" at all.
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@ MA (134)
Let me see if I get it right. As long as the bond gets traded, it doesn't matter, since every new buyer uses today's inflated dollars to buy it. If I buy today a 1000$, 3.5% 30y bond that matures tomorrow, then I pay 965 today's dollars for a healthy 35 dollars in my pocket tomorrow morning. It doesn't matter if the initial buyer payed a far larger real value since he sold it 29-30 years ago and got his value back with a profit. All the other buyers of that bond profited or lost money, according to the accuracy of their predictions over the inflation/currency fluctuations/offer&demand of that bond market, for the duration of them holding the bond. Well you have my thanks, I now have a better understanding on the bond market trade. I'll try to find a place to watch the bond market live and study it further.
That doesn't change what I'm saying though. I just want to add a new variable to the equation. A variable that connects the will for investment in a place with the cost of borrowing of that place . It can only work if someone wants to invest. I'm talking about the initial price of the bond and the risk associated with it at first. With my variable, if there is active interest in investing in Europe, then interest rates will go down. And it is good for the investor as well since lower rates mean stability for his investment. If no one wants to invest, then it is business as usual for the traders.
As for your attorney, well that was life in Greece from the mid 80s till 2001 that we entered the euro. Austerity and devaluation. If your friend didn't had any gain from a 24% bond, imagine what happened to our salaries and savings at the same period. Do you actually believe that the IMF can scare us?
@vassilis (135), It looked more to me like the press found out the loophole in the ECB rules and simply asked the question. I don't think that ECB ever dreamed the possibility of a member state bonds ranked next to junk. Then they woke up and started to unofficially hint about a European rating agency. Watch out S&P and others or you may loose some serious business.
@Alice (136), Funny, we have the exact same phrase in Greek. Almost word by word. :)
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CBW:
"..Western Europe was occupied and forced to adopt the Westminster.."!
"Yeah right!"
Yes, right.
I did not say whether it was for the best or not. I merely corrected your earlier claim that western continental Europe adopted NATO and the westminster style governments by choice. It didn't.
And it is testament to the power of your own indoctrination that you can't comprehend how that might play inside the continental psyche.
It doesn't matter whether it was for the best or not, CBW. What matters is how continental europeans think about it now. If... I repeat IF.. the westminster system was forced upon germany and france, how do you suppose the modern far right interpret that fact?
Do you suppose they take a balanced and fair view, and say to themselves "Oh well, you know, thank god we had the Americans and the UK dictating to us how to live. If we hadn't had that, it might have been worse."?
Well?
You see, one doesn;t strive to understand a foreign perspective in order to agree with it. It is enough to predict how it will likely react to an argument. That is a considerable benefit.
And when someone is so hopelessly indoctrinated with the glory of their own society that they go around spouting the view that it is superior and loved by all good people everywhere, I put it to you that they have lost the crucial ability to understand and thus predict, and thus reason with, a foreign perspective in the wide world.
I don't actually despise all things British in the world, but there is a good reason for me to avoid typical british and american folks "like the plague" whilst I am living in a foreign society. That is because most british and american folks are so heavily indoctrinated with their own glorious past that they do not realize how blind they are to real foreign perspectives, and how badly they stand out in a crowd of local foreigners. And how insulting their own self confidence becomes, when viewed through foreign eyes.
Look at yourself in this debate just now. You have climbed up onto a large platform and are laughing at me for suggesting that soviet occupation was preferable to US and British occupation.
Even if I am wrong to suggest the possibility, CBW, you ought not laugh. The fact that you laugh means you will never understand the german culture, nor the french.
Unlike the british and the americans, a lot of french and germans were murdered by fascists, and a huge number had family who were brutally murdered for the crime of being socialists. Those families despise fascism, and they retain their hatred on both sides of the borders of cold war europe.
Look now in Russia, at the demonstrations against Putin. You'll see a curious pairing of old school communists and human rights activists.
Both of those groups share the fundamental belief that Putin is a fascist. And by that they mean that he tramples human rights in order to further the interests of foreign capitalists. They do not mean he is a german ww2 sympathizer.
That worldview is growing, and growing fast in Europe. We hear a lot about the rise of the neo-nazi right in europe, but the rise of the hard core left is arguably much greater and far more volatile.
This week the bombs have been going off on the streets of greece. Who do you think was planting those?
Europe is not the UK, and it has a very different historical perspective. As for Marcus, he lives in hollywood.
But you're technically in Europe, and should know better. Britain did not invent freedom, CBW. It is a stultifyingly morbid class based system for a huge number of people. That is the european perspective.
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Marcus wrote:
"dt, I'm surprised at you. I'd have expected your posting to come from the likes of ghost of sechuan chicken dinner, not from a lawyer who ultimately makes his money directly or indirectly from banks playing fast and loose with international law happily shielding every criminal in the world who has money to hide or launder for a nice fat profit."
I don't make my money from banks, marcus.
I only work for family owned companies, and I do pro bono work for the disabled.
I guess I'd work for a family owned bank, so I guess you have a point.
Well, as you say the fault is not with the banks but with the regulation of their activity. I've said before that an objection to fascism is not an objection to corporations or banking. It is an objection to the control of government by these folks. In the same way, an objection to socialism is not an objection to social behaviour. One need not dislike or disapprove of people who do charitable works. But the idea of them controlling the political process is devastating to the common welfare of all.
I believe in the same things you do, Marcus. I don't trust power, and I think democracy and a carefully crafted constitution are the best form of government.
But unlike you, I'm no patriot and I do not think political systems are immune to change. So even if I admire the early American statesmen and their achievements, I'm deeply skeptical about whether they would have tolerated, let alone endorsed, what the USA has become.
I think the westminster system of representative democracy was fine and dandy, and still is, for states where the majority are either illiterate or nearly so, and where the most complex form of commercial entity is the natural person.
But in an advanced society, where you have a literate population and complex markets with such complex entities as corporations, then I think the safeguards on the process of legislation need to be far tighter, and democracy itself more refined. Hence I think a civil society needs direct democracy, if it is to be protected from evolving fascism inside a community where corporations and party based institutions prey upon the old ways of representation.
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cool-brush :o))))) very, as I said before, passionate cool :o))))
You seriously flat refuse to take the credit?
For half-Europe "anglo-saxonisation" :o)))))) ?
Well, well.
Well, OK, France wasn't. much. But that's only because Stalin supported De Gaulle, put heavy stakes on, and France was able to play in between for a while. Otherwise granted French colonies post-war would have become say, "anglo-saxonian" :o)))
But all the rest; you didn't notice - for example - that all strangely became very fond of learning English? For which, if I am not wrong, Italy and Spain and Holland and who only not - the same Belgium - DID NOT display a single intention, in all the previous times and centuries combined.
You think they all suddenly at once discovered the wealth of knowledge and technical advance, available in English only, and the golden piles of English literature to be read in original immediately? Until 1945 they didn't have a clue - and then - all at once - immedeiately desired to sip from the bowl.
Well,
Well I think if you flat refuse to take the credit - someone else will. Mavrelius might, for that matter.
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With our side - I don't give up on anything. And won't. Yes, grabatised, yes, kept for 40 years, yes, influenced.
Won't say that exploited :o)))) though. Rather, "froze their own development possible may be better without us". Didn't give people a chance to try on their own. What would come out of it - mind it - unclear.
But as - didn't - they can safely tell us "you blocked our own development, monsters" - and Russians have nothing to say in objection. True and accepted.
Anyway, you are wrong with numbbers - that 1 in a million in Easetrn Europe desirous to be communistic-socialistic etc.
I don't know how many but certainly more than "1". Baltic states had communists swarming in own parliaments in huge quantities when we grabatised them. Revolutionaries were simply abundant in Eastern Europe.
Our own KGB Dzerzhnisky come to think about it we got from Poland.
I once posted the list of Communist Party "goverenment" Stalin times, if you remember - there wasn't a single Russian name in the rows and rows of committees, heads of ministries, and what not. Whole 1st and 2nd tiers of our "elite".
If you remember the 1st International HQ, the 2nd and the 3rd - that was all the communists of Europe - Western Europe by half - mind it - swarming here in Moscow in exhile. We have collected them a plenty, into these "International" communists organisations - but as they kept coming for 25 years post revolution - I think there were a lot at home, from whenever they came over to us.
We didn't xerox copy them for sure, they were all immigres, arrivals.
My idea is there was a lot of "communism" in Wesetrn and Eastern Europe-s, likewise, before the war. From somewhere all these people arrived, after all? Flaming wonders.
Moscow became an int'l HQ of the movement, awful fertile ground here, but still it is not like Russia figured it up here and sent back homes, the traffic was in another direction.
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@ cool brush work - by all means do call me a lousy apologist for the EU. I do not mind being called a name or two if it helps me understand where you are coming from. On this occasion, however, you left me in the dark a little bit. I will explain why in just a moment.
My characterisation of the EU-sceptics as whingers and belly-achers was an expression of an opinion. All I can do is explain why I how I have come to hold that opinion. Well, it is actually quite simple. Britain is a member of the European Union, not because it was forced to be a member, but because it imposed itself on the core states, at first, as we all know, against fierce French opposition. Several decades on, it is still a member of the EU, for the very simple yet inescapable reason that it has not withdrawn from it (yet).
Now, you bring up all the people born in Britain and immigrated into Britain since then as a reason to ask the EU membership question again. I think it is a fair point. So from time to time, it would seem to me, there should be a referendum on continued membership. While we're at it, why should not every person born in Britain immigrated to Britain be be given a chance to vote for or against continued membership of The UK from time to time? Should they be allowed to have their own souvereign nation within the British Isles? But I digress...
It is, as I said, a fair point that should be taken seriously. I would disagree with one popular sentiment though - it was not "a failure" or in any way "undemocratic" of British governments to not hold additional referenda. After all, how is it "undemocratic" of a British government to not give the people of Wolverhampton, Dudley, Walsall and Birmingham a chance to opt out of Britain every twenty years or so? How come the people of the West Midlands are not getting a say in this? No referendum simply means the government simply did not feel or see the need to hold one. If you do not like this government, then vote it out of office. But do not blame the EU for simply being what it was always going to become.
So this is where you left me guessing. How is this a "lousy apology" for the EU? How is it even an apology? And how is it pro-EU? I simply pointed out that the EU is a free-trade area and that it should have been clear to anyone capable of using their mind that political integration would sooner or later inevitable. There is no such thing as economic integration without political integration.
The EU is nothing that can be loved or hated. It simply is. Just tell your government to pull out of it if you feel that continued membership is bad for you.
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DemocThreat
Re #143
No, you did not "..correct.." anything I wrote.
You gave an alternative point of view: A correction is to signify putting things right - - Your opinion is an opinion, not a correction.
From my point of view 'western' Europe made choices (& so did the millions who voted with their feet to move 'west') - - to opt for the basic 'democratic' systems around in that politically-emotionally-socially fraught post-WW2 era - - hence the 'democracy' of Westminster' was definitely not the option of France, Belgium, Denmark, Italy (which had a form of 'west democracy' as early as 1943) etc. Only in the basic principles of 1 man - 1 vote and rule of law was 'democracy' installed across the 'west'. Only in West Germany might it be said the 'democracy' in the first instance was imposed from above by the liberating 'west' armed forces & that was never a 'Westminster' style. As we can all see that imposition really went badly for 'west' Germany!
In Greece the opportunity to choose a system of 'democratic' Government only came into effect after the ousting of the 'communists' - - but even there, the actual constitution was a Greek affair.
Frankly DemocThreat it strikes me You are so anti-english You are attempting to create a version of post-WW2 Europe that fits with Your own antipathy to all things 'english' and is a dis-service to Your more normal, rational and constructive contributions.
It is a powerful indicator of Your indoctrination that You would assume I laugh at Your opinion! When all the time I find it increasingly, depressingly familiar amongst the revisionist historians who 60 years after WW2 would like the course of World events to be rewritten to suit a modern schematic approach to every difficult issue it confronts - - the most difficult being that there really are some 'good' guys out there and some 'bad' ones too - - that I hold to the more traditionalist approach is also true; an old-fashioned view that accepts every Human is fallible but does not allow it to therefore make excuses for the evil that Humans do.
It is my view the EU is at end an evil entity; that is a very harsh assessment and I am quite sure many will be affronted or shocked by such an accusation. Afterall, the EU is designed to bring about peace & tranquility on the EUropean continent - - there can be no finer objective - - unless of course the means to the end are in and of themselves so dangerous to the individual Citizens' Rights & Responsibilities that it is a peace at an unacceptable price to civilised Humanity's future.
Some on here will never understand my view: I believe You will understand, may even sympathise, but You will not agree as to how and why of it.
So, I say: I'm not going to pursue this post-WW2 Europe issue with You as we tend to get into semantics and bogged down by minutae.
By the way, if I were Greek, I'd be really affronted to see you write 'to hell with them', for surely the individual Greek's present condition is the epitome of all that is wrong with the EU and exemplifies why the EU as it presently exists is such a colossal threat to every Citizen? The Athen's shopkeeper and the housewife of Patrai beholden to the whimsy of 'gods' but not of Olympus, no, much more mundane and far more ruthless, the Paris-Brussels-Berlin cabal!
Cheers.
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German media are reporting that Greece needs 54 billion Euros credits this year, and 20 Billions of this amount already in April and May. This time table will of course put pressure on the EU meeting next week - apart from the pressure it puts on the Greek government.
ARD is also reporting that Germany is not supporting the proposal from president Barroso (the proposal to offer bilateral loans), but Greece has greeted it, and it strongly suggests that the IMF solution is not seriously meant by the Greek government.
At this moment it is not clear what the rest of the EU countries think, in particularly those within the Euro zone. (The rest will probably not have any real influence on the decision.)
We might get hints through the press - something to keep an eye on in the coming days.
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CA;
I think you have a better understanding. The only reason we produce more than we need for today is to make money from the surplus. Interest and profits are the rewards for successfully risking our surplus money instead of just holding on to it ourselves and using it tomorrow. Without surplus wealth, there would be no markets, no money to build things, no progress, just people doing enough to survive for the moment. This is what our civilization is built on.
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@Mathiasen
Greek position has always been a solution within EU; the idea is a conrete plan which could very well lead to lower spreads (5% or 5.5% on these circumstances could be fine!) so that Greece continues to borrow from markets. As a European and not as Greek I have always thought that this action will strengthen the Euro, Eurozone and Europe as a global player who can sort out crisis situations. I have been very dissapointed that this does not materialise. I think it is bad for Europe and could signal more trouble not less in the future. Some countries with Germany in front seem to think very differently. Certainly the IMF is second choice (if we go there will be countries that would accuse us for this) and it has a certain bluff element but ultimately if spreads do not drop for one reason or another, it is IMF or insolvency.
I think that with a concrete plan from Europe and with European help and pressure so that Greece makes drastic and painful changes in our system (or not so painful, most Greeks do not like public servants priviledges, tax evasion by many groups etc. they are happy to see them suffer! I have met many Greeks who see this as an opportunity to deal once and for all to chronic problems, do you think that Greeks like corruption?) on top of the severe austerity program which was delivered with minimal reaction, Greece can get out of the tunnell and Europe would look strong. I think this is a rational approach to the problem which punishes Greek frivolous economic/fiscal policies and puts some order to the country. Furthermore, it strengthens Europe and Eurozone. I am very much surprised that Germany and others think very differently, almost in an isolationalist american way which frankly reminds me of other eras before EU. If this is not the correct approach, why EU was created in the first place? so that certain exporting countries to have their markets and when the markets get destroyed to expel them to hell? I might be a romantic, but this who I am :-)
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Mathiasen @149
This is all clutching at straws.
Everyone is looking to Germany to be the Guarantor as no other EU nation other than, perhaps at a pinch, France can afford the loan guarantees required by the Greeks just to pay their Loan Debt Interest repayment which you report as 20 billion Euros but I have already calculated as 25 billion Euros and which is due this coming April/May.
The Eurozone Leader and Finance Ministers have already had meetings to discuss the way forward and all they have come up with so far is platitudes.
One more meeting is going to achieve what exactly? Germany to step up to the plate and promise to pay the Greek Debt if it fails to get sufficient loans from the international markets by April/May 2010?
It is just not going to happen as there is still malcontent in Greece with the current Austerity Measures that have been self-imposed and which both Germany and the IMF would require to be much more austere - AND accepted by the Greek population - if Greece is to get any funding guarantees from Germany let alone the IMF.
I think you are pinning your hopes too high on their being true solidarity between the Eurozone nations when it is clear to be seen from the previous meetings that although sympathy for the Greeks is in great supply there has been no concrete measures taken to actually provide any loan guarantees (which may actually require the Guarantor nations, i.e. Germany, the need to actually cough up in the event of a Greek default!) as the risk to Germany's economy is far too great.
Eurozone solidarity is going to turn out to be will o' the whisp and intangible as the Germany government is not suicidal and will need their electorate's support - not that of the Greeks - at the next German Elections!
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On the occasion of the summit in the next week we see more clearly than perhaps ever before that the union is divided into rings. It is also known as the union with different tempos.
The group of Euro-16 is in the centre and it will make the decisions concerning Greece since it also concerns the single currency.
In the next ring we find 10 countries without the currency that probably will prefer not to be involved in the rescue action against a Greek insolvence.
In the last ring we have one country, Denmark. Its PM will tell the other that he will take a cup of coffee during the discussions since Denmark has an opt-out concerning the Euro. Alternatively he will take a break outside the room and perhaps enjoy the weather.
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148. At 9:06pm on 20 Mar 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
" ... the EU is designed to bring about peace & tranquility on the EUropean continent ..."
EUpris: That is what they claim it is about. Surely it is more about megalomania.
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147. At 8:58pm on 20 Mar 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
" ... After all, how is it "undemocratic" of a British government to not give the people of Wolverhampton, Dudley, Walsall and Birmingham a chance to opt out of Britain every twenty years or so? How come the people of the West Midlands are not getting a say in this? ..."
EUpris: There is no evidence of a campaign to have one. They have not been promised one by people who subsequently denied them one.
" ... If you do not like this government, then vote it out of office. But do not blame the EU for simply being what it was always going to become. "
EUpris: I can certainly blame the "EU" for collaborating with anti-democratic people in the UK. I can blame the "EU" for not demanding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in the UK. It interferes in the UK in all sorts of ways. It tries to interfere in other countries, but it did not support our right to a referendum.
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147. At 8:58pm on 20 Mar 2010, Chris Camp wrote:
" ... There is no such thing as economic integration without political integration."
EUpris: Not true! Austria was already pretty well economically integrated with the "EU" before it joined. Indeed one of the arguments there was that they were so economically integrated that they had to be politically integrated. But that argument was false because they had for years managed economic integration without political integration.
"The EU is nothing that can be loved or hated."
EUpris: Wrong again! Millions of people hate it.
"Just tell your government to pull out of it if you feel that continued membership is bad for you."
EUpris: We do not have a functioning democracy in the UK. So we have to consider other ways. One of these ways is to get other "EU" countries to throw us out. Another way is to work for the collapse of the "EU" so that we will be free after that collapse.
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I don't know MA,
The more I learn about macroeconomics, the more they remind me of control system theory. The problem is that I mostly see positive feedbacks in the system, and a system with only positive feedback is unstable. Believe me, I've made some things explode that way. That is why, I instinctively try to put some negative feedback in the system. The only theory I managed to find in economics about negative feedback, was about automatic stabilizers. They seem to work applied on a country, in relation with the rest of the world. But can you employ them at a globalized world economy?
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No matter have many interpretations Menedemus makes of my hopes and how I use pins:
I do not make predictions, because it is very unwise to make predictions at this moment, and the reason why can be found in #2.
I report. It would be wise for other to do the same.
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Chris Camp
re #147
No, I wont be calling you names - - name-calling is just a waste of space.
Now, on the real issue: Sorry, but You have completely lost me!
What have immigrants to Britain or people resident in Dudley or anywhere else in the UK got to do with a Referendum on membership of the EUropean Union!? Citizens and residents of the UK have opportunities to effect the local, regional and national government - - whether indigenous Britons or immigrants the UK is their domecile - - infact, you are in error on the 'devolution' issue because the NuLab Government did offer devolved powers to Citizens via elected regional authorities & the populations opposed the idea (in contrast to the National populations - see below).
There is neither logic, reason or even consistency in your proposals - - frankly, I couldn't understand them! Apologies.
The EU is a political construct that has evolved since the early 1950s: By the early 1970s the UK had not "forced" itself on the EEC as it was; after protracted negotiations UK had been invited to join by the original 6 & subsequently a revised Treaty of Accession was approved by a majority vote of British Citizens (myself included) in April 1975.
Just as the UK has evolved and has various devolved political institutions so has the EEC over years become the EU: The key political difference in this evolutionary momentum was that the 'devolved' Governments of the UK were put to Citizens in Referendum whereas the present EU has never been the subject of any Referendum.
The 1 exception to this gross lack of 'democractic' accountability was the proposed EU 'Constitution' which was critically rejected by 2 of the founding members of the Common Market (France & Netherlands).
To try to defend the 'ever closer union' of the EU as having always been the object from inception with the Treaty of Rome is plainly unacceptable and unsatisfactory. It denies all logic by purporting that the EU in its present form was inevitable when there is no reason to believe that is the case for so long as the EUropean Citizens have been denied a say in the development of the EU's institutions.
Of course, as an English Citizen, I can complain about the UK Governments that have flouted the public will and refused a Referendum on EU membership (NOT that I claim to know what the result would be for any of the 4 UK Union Nations).
It also follows that as an English Citizen whose Nation is a part of the EUropean Union I have every right to complain about its role in the political governance of my Nation.
I would also remind you that on the previous blog article I answered your claim that it was just a 'commonmarket/free trade area' with a number of questions: I note that to date you have still singularly failed to address any of those questions as to the authority and power accrued to Brussels despite a complete lack of EU Citizen mandate for it to have done so!
I would suggest You start proving the EU "..simply is.." by asking yourself and the German Government if it is so confident of German Citizens' support for it why in 20+ years it has not once put any key EU Treaty etc. to a test in the Ballot box?
At the last German National polls some 70+% of Citizens took part: At the 2009 EU Parliament elections a mere 43.3% of German Citizens participated - - now that is a curious set of endorsement statistics for something You claim is an "..inevitable political integration.." if only people "..used their minds.."!
It appears 56.7% of eligible German Citizens chose not to 'use' theirs in 2009 for this EU entity.
Across the whole EU the figure was 57% non-turnout!
No, sorry, but next time the Citizens of Hamburg, Frankfurt, Munich etc. turnout for an EU Election as they do for their National Elections will be the time I concur the EU 'simply is' and then You can advise the UK on holding elections for Wolverhampton etc.!!!?
Until then, as an 'apologist' for the EU You are not making a very good job of it!
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153. At 10:15pm on 20 Mar 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
" ...
In the last ring we have one country, Denmark. Its PM will tell the other that he will take a cup of coffee during the discussions since Denmark has an opt-out concerning the Euro. Alternatively he will take a break outside the room and perhaps enjoy the weather."
Lucky Denmark!
Thrice lucky Canada!
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According to a report in the Austrian Radio website, the Governor of the Austrian National Bank, Ewald Novoyny stated that the crisis in the world economy was over but in Europe there was a "strange, worrying development." We were not in year one after the crisis but in year three of the crisis.
These comments are consistent with something I read over at the Telegraph site that is is not a normal recession.
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Greece should simply default on its debts. I am sick of politicians catering to the international banking cartel time and time again. Just tell the bankers to get stuffed! Policy should not be made with a view to 'pleasing the stockmarket' or 'doing what the bankers want'.
In all this discussion over Greece, the one thing I am missing in EU-phile arguments, is how exactly they think it is acceptable to ignore the peoples once again. The peoples are clear in their message, no bailouts, no guarantees. So why can't politicians accept that? Why is there still that risk of a shady backroom deal early next week? I've argued time and again the EU is undemocratic, and the fact that 'leaders' can make such backroom deals ignoring their national parliaments is proof of that. No the EU parliament isn't a real parliament and also shouldn't be allowed to vote on this, as politicians from net recipient countries have a majority there, it's like having the wolves outvote the lambs on the topic on what's for dinner.
You know what the #1 thing is that is killing the EU? Besides the utter lack of real democracy? It is the weak compromises, the endless compromises. 'Lisbon' was a compromise between politicians, people like me warned that it would complicate things rather than ease them. People like me said there would be less democracy rather than more. We were ignored. And now the thing is in effect and we are proven right, and EU-philes are wrong. I wish I could gloat over it but I can't since some other things are also still happening 'under the Brussels waterline'... all at the detriment of national parliamentary democracy.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8577506.stm
Apparently our noble leader, our unforgettable President, Herman Thingamyjig, writes Hiakus.
Here's one of them:
Birds in concert.
One sings above all others.
I don't know its name.
Here's one of mine:
Oceans of Bullproduct
Lie after Lie
Yes, it's the "EU"
It sounds better in Japanese, I hope.
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cool-brush-work,
I think communism happens when people get poor. that's when one gets un-healthy desire :o))) to make things even, "spread them" evenly, on the piece of bread. ok, communismm never happened, but socialism happened more or less. say, all those goodies' re-distribution ideas.
there was absolutely no base in Russia at the turn of the century for leftist ideas, at least, acc. to Karl Marx. By him - it's exploited by capitalists industrial workers at factories.
Well, there were very little of them those factories in Russia. And conditions for workers were far better than abroad. A factory worker was earning not badly, I mean, it was considered quite an alright income, allowing many interesting things for the household, and no that child labour or whatever.
90% of the country were simply peasants. If you ever find one leftist peasant household - tell me :o)))) All farmers and peasants, as min. here, are very, very, how to say, say, economical :o)))) Right wing as much as one can only wish :o))))
How much leftie were our nobility and land-owners and bankers I don't know. Well, may be - if someone had to be leftie - must be it were them! :o))))
That's all happened I think after 5 mln peasants who were drafted died in the 1st WW, and as many returned home crippled, and ovverall all were drafted and disappeared from home and farming, and their households without men went down, that's when poverty struck - and where poverty - there - granted - "communism".
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As for Merkel sending a letter to the Swedish government, it was reported at the time by the main Swedish broadcaster, SVT, that it (SVT) had seen part of a classified letter that the German chancellor Angela Merkel sent to the Swedish government. In the letter Merkel writes that she wants to restart the EU Treaty process as soon as possible and urges the Swedish government to appoint an ‘entrusted’ official who could secretly negotiate Sweden’s position on the document. The letter also sets out a timetable for reviving the Constitution in another form but with essentially the same content.
The Swedish government has classified the letter and this runs counter to the Swedish official line to push for more ‘openness’ in EU affairs. Concerns remained (at the time) that the letter was meant as the first step in the attempt to avoid a future referendum in Sweden over a revised Constitution, as politicians, primarily from the left, have urged the government to make the letter publicly available and so encourage a wider constitutional debate.
---
The woman is obviously not a huge fan of democracy. So what's the deal with German chancellors?
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The problem with negative feedback theory is that people who engineer them forget that if the gain is one or greater when the phase response is minus 180 degrees, the system will go into spontaneous oscillation, in fact that is how you build an oscillator. An example in macroeconomics is when a central bank raises or lowers interest rates to slow down or speed up an economy, It takes time to respond. If the bank not seeing any results continues to change rates in the same direction for too long it will overshoot its target. Then it will try to go into reverse. It took a long time for the Federal Reserve to "get it." Now they are much more cautious. Response time is often about 18 months between the input which is the interest rate change and the output which is increasing or decreasing the rate at which the economy grows or shrinks. This is an oversimplification since economic activity is a very complex variable by itself. How's that for remembering something I learned over 40 years ago?
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153 Mathiasen,
I would call it a dis-union of 27 states that appear to try their best to stab eachother on the back. It started with Greece hiding their deficit numbers and it carrying right along now with Merkel stabing Greece in the back every time there appears to be any kind of common approach.
Please stop this "union" nonsense.
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Trouble in Paradise?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8576137.stm
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mvr512;
"Greece should simply default on its debts. I am sick of politicians catering to the international banking cartel time and time again. Just tell the bankers to get stuffed! Policy should not be made with a view to 'pleasing the stockmarket' or 'doing what the bankers want'."
Interesting theory. I suppose Greece has a plan ready to proceed where its government will not have to borrow money ever again because if it defaults, nobody will lend it any. Funny thing about borrowing money, people forget that one day they will have to pay it back with interest.
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What a bunch of "lay down and die people" hanging out here.
This is just the "first crisis of the Euro union." The IMF saved the Asian tigers...Why can it not help Greece?---Because of France's ego?
DT is right. It is the people who have to join in with their governments and help save Greece, by using what is available... a combination of EU money and IMF loans.
Bankruptcy isn't so bad. Greece's's credit will improve after that--not with Euro nations but, maybe with--more importantly, China, Russia, "et al."
.... (forget) Germany and France for now, Greece. They are maybe in an existential panic...who am I, Where am I headed?--their way--and then finally to follow someone else's initiative.
Unless, this is solved soon, war may break out between Greece and Turkey, for a distraction from Greece's troubles. People when poor loved to be drafted into armies...
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@ WUprisoner "I note that to date you have still singularly failed to address any of those questions as to the authority and power accrued to Brussels despite a complete lack of EU Citizen mandate for it to have done so!"
Oh that. Sorry about that one. I must have missed it. It can be answered quite easily though. The European Commission is appointed by the democratically appointed governments of the European Union. There are elections for the European Parliament every four years. It is not the fault of the parliament there is a low turnout.
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"Not true! Austria was already pretty well economically integrated with the "EU" before it joined. Indeed one of the arguments there was that they were so economically integrated that they had to be politically integrated. But that argument was false because they had for years managed economic integration without political integration."
That was no economic integration. It was economic submission. So it had to take Brussels directives without having any say in it. Now, as a member state, they do have a say. The same goes for Norway and Switzerland. In effect, they may as well be EU members, as they in effect has to adhere to EU directives, without having any real say in the creation of EU directives. That is not "avoiding political integration" - it is just integratimng yourself under worse terms than necessary.
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There is an old saying "You can't squeeze blood from a turnip,"
BUT, I work for the IRS, ...ooops...the department of the Treasury. No harassment intended (or non existant power plays) AND
THEY CAN seemingly squeeze blood from a turnip---that is why Republicans hate us.
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#165. At 00:15am on 21 Mar 2010, mvr512
With a little bit of luck it is possible to find the relevant articles on SVT concerning Merkel’s letter to the Swedish government. One of the articles is dated 25 January 2007.
The assertion: “The Swedish government has classified the letter and this runs counter to the Swedish official line to push for more ‘openness’ in EU affairs” is coming from the opposition in the Swedish parliament, and it is wrong. It is standard procedure that the Swedish government classifies a letter when the sender is writing in confidence.
I am quite sure this is also the standard procedure in The Netherlands and everywhere else. Otherwise leaders could not write letters in confidence to each other and would have to limit their messages to open, public statements.
Nonetheless: The entire letter can be seen on the website of SVT. (Cannot bring the Swedish link).
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Mathiasen @#158
I regret your choice of reply.
You were not reporting at #149. You were pronouncing or, at best, you were expressing your view and making speculation regarding the outcome as, in your very own words, you suggest "This time table will of course put pressure on the EU meeting next week - apart from the pressure it puts on the Greek government. [See #149]
You are, of course perfectly entitled to make and express your own views but, by the same token, so may I.
You interpret that the requirements of the Greeks to need loans of 20 billion Euros immediately and a further 34 billion Euros additionally (as per #149] will put pressure on the other Eurozone nations to come up with a solution.
Apropos, I too suggest that previous meetings to specifically discuss a unified approach to helping Greece with financial support have not been productive. The only help arising from these previous meetings has been the issuing of platitudes which have neither been believable nor evidence of any solidarity of the other Eurozone nations concerning concrete soultions to help with Greece's plight.
If you can suggest that next weeks meeting will produce a concrete proposal to help Greece; I counter-suggest that the evidence to date is that Germany is reluctant to fund any loan guarantees for Greece and that next week's meeting will demonstrate yet again a divide between the Eurozone nations on the best practical solution for the Greek economic plight.
I speculate that France does not want to see the IMF involved in supporting Greece because France does not want to see the USA (as the main benefactor of the IMF) having any input into the rescue of the Greek economy. The reasons for this French disquiet are historical but profoundly affect every decision the French make in global affairs.
Germany, on the other side is, as ever, far more pragmatic. If Germany intervenes and either guarantees any loans from the rest of the Eurozone to Greece and Greece were to default (which remnains THE possibility and why the Greek economy IS under speculator attack!) then it will be Germany that has to stump up the billions of Euros to be repaid - that will hurt individual Germans in the pocket and will affect the German economy which has already been impacted by the fallout of the global recession just like every nation in the Western World as been affected (to greater or lesser degree).
Greece, as we all know is in the middle of a rock and a hard place. It has introduced austerity measures to try to reduce the greek budget deficit but it needs more loans to make repayment of loan debt interest in April/May.
If Greece relies on the solidarity of the Eurozone, the Greece can hope for loans to be forthcoming from Eurozone banks with Germany (the richest Eurozone nation) guaranteeing those loans.
Alternatively, Greece goes cap-in-hand to the IMF and asks for the loans it desperately needs. I have no doubt that the IMF will provide the necessary funds. It will also offer those loans at a realistic and afforable interest rate so not a bad route to take just embarassing.
I speculate, which I am at liberty to do so, that next week's meeting of the Eurozone Finance Ministers will not produce any real or concrete measures to support Greece and that Greece will have to go to the IMF to seek the funding it needs in the short term.
I do not speculate these events because I dislike the Euro as, strange as it may appear to you, whilst I dislike the undemocratic institution of the EU, I sincerely DO support the integration of the European Nations into a single trade bloc with internal market which includes a single currency that could become an international currency of good standing.
The failure of Greece and the lack of solidarity of the Eurozone nations is the result of the Euro having been created without sufficient forsight that a global recession might trigger speculation on any of the weaker economies of the Euruzone, that the PIIG nations clearly entered the Euro with unfair exchange rates for their defunct currencies that have now impacted their ability to respond to loan repayments and that the Eurozone did not have in place a robust mechanism with the ECB neither able to intervene in the Greek economy before now nor produce internal funding mechanisms to negate the need for Greece to even contemplate having to ask for IMF support.
All these historic failings can be addressed in the future and make the Euro both strong again and a valuable feature of european trading benfits but the current situation requires strong leadership with no further vacilattion from either Germany or France.
I suggest that Germany is the stronger leader nation and Angela Merkel's reluctance to have Germany guarantee the loans that Greece needs urgently will prevail.
I speculate that next weeks meeting of Eurozone+1 Finance Ministers will not produce any solidarity other that more platitudes.
I suspect that Greece will, inevitably, be forced to turn to the IMF for financial and economic support.
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Chris Camp @#172
I was browsing your reply to EUprisoner and it struck me that what you say was true for when Austria joined the EU but for future additional new members of the EU the ability to form and develop policy might have become somewhat more restricted with the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty.
The general thrust of the Direction of the EU is determined by the Council of Ministers but the Directives regarding conformance and EU-wide regulation within the spheres of devolved sovereignty are very much within the remit of the Commission to whom membership of that body politik is assigned by sovereign member states.
At the time Austria joined the EU they inherited, by right of accession, a seat at the table of the Commission as it were, i.e Austria obtained the right to profer candidature and have a Commissioner appointed who was THE Austrian to represent their best interests.
The Lisbon Treaty has now capped the number of Commissioners and I believe that it was Ireland that lost a Commission Seat but that it could well have been Austria which would undermine your concept that Austria, by joining the EU, had more say rather than having been, previously, outside of the decison making process?
Post-Lisbon Treaty, it will be an inherent future fact that any new accession countries that join the EU will not gain a Commission place automatically and thus it befalls that nation to have no more sway over future directives and regulations than it had BEFORE accession.
It is also true to say that with the new qualified majority voting system now available to the Council of Ministers that ALL present and future EU nations have much less power to thwart or modify the collective strategic decisions made by the Council of Ministers as their national interests are now able to be ridden over roughshod by majority will in that small forum of decision making.
I therefore wonder if your reply to EUprisoner was, although true to some extent - if taken at face value regarding Austria then and now - is slightly disingenous as EU nations have now lost some of their abilty to influence or even prevent EU policy harming individual National Interest if that nation stands alone from the herd in disagreement with a political decision (be it political policy, directive or regulation).
The ability to say "Non" and the previous privilege of being a minority (even of being a minority of one) and standing up for national interest has been stifled by the Lisbon Treaty.
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176. At 11:10am on 21 Mar 2010, Menedemus wrote:
Chris Camp @#172
"The Lisbon Treaty has now capped the number of Commissioners and I believe that it was Ireland that lost a Commission Seat but that it could well have been Austria which would undermine your concept that Austria, by joining the EU, had more say rather than having been, previously, outside of the decison making process?
Post-Lisbon Treaty, it will be an inherent future fact that any new accession countries that join the EU will not gain a Commission place automatically and thus it befalls that nation to have no more sway over future directives and regulations than it had BEFORE accession."
Hi Menedemus, Chris Camp,
This is not correct. The Lisbon Treaty proposed a reduced Commission. After electorate unease about this specifically caused rejection of the Treaty in Ireland after the first referendum vote, the Treaty clause revoking this proposal was unanimously accepted by the Heads of Government, and alleviated the concerns of many in Ireland, permitting a second vote and ratification by referendum.
Now all states have a Commissioner, and all future members will 'enjoy' Commission representation.
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168. At 01:20am on 21 Mar 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Trouble in Paradise?"
EUpris: YES!!! But we don't have just one snake. They are all over the place. They are the British politicians who promised us a referendum but the voted against us having one. They are the continental politicians and "EU" supporters who supported them in any way. The list goes on and on.
And the some wonder why the turnout at the "EU" elections is so low!
Some consider that not voting is a more effective way of expressing an opinion than voting.
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167. At 00:59am on 21 Mar 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
"153 Mathiasen,
I would call it a dis-union of 27 states that appear to try their best to stab eachother on the back. It started with Greece hiding their deficit numbers and it carrying right along now with Merkel stabing Greece in the back every time there appears to be any kind of common approach.
Please stop this "union" nonsense."
EUprisoner: I do not accept that the Germans are stabbing the Greeks in the back. I believe people are unjustly vilifying the Germans. Its called "projection." You blame others when you are in the wrong.
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"Leaving pride aside, the cost of servicing Greece's debts would halve".
What's the evidence for this, and why would Greece bother with an EU solution if it's true?
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Mickalus @#177
Thank you for the input. That would raise concerns for me though and perhaps open up a whole new can of worms?
I thought that the cap on the number of commissioners was still in place as renegotiation of the Lisbon Treaty is not being considered by the Council of Ministers as it had take 8 years to get ratification of even this non-Constitutional(?) Treaty.
If Ireland's planned loss of Commissioner was aborted I could quite understand as a "Yes" vote from Ireland was essential and promises made had to be kept.
However, as I understand the clause limiting the number of Commissioners delivered by the Lisbon Treaty is not removed and thus my concerns of the loss of influence through the Commission not having future 1:1 national representation would still stand.
I appreciate that, as in all things, short term expediency delivers modified implementation and short term abrogation may have been necessary but I wonder if the EU through the Council of Ministers has the legitimate authority to modify the Lisbon Treaty on the hoof as it were and make abrogation of a clause in that treaty permanent?
The UK Parliament ratified the Lisbon Treaty as it was presented to them clause-by-clause, HM Elisabeth II ratified the articles of treaty and those articles are lodge in Rome. I am not sure that the Council of Ministers may arbitarily dispense with part or whole of a UK ratified Treaty without UK parliamentary consent.
How this would sit with other goverment legislatures within the EU, I do not know?
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I never thoght much of the EU and now it proves it can't be much of a union if during the first financial crisis when some of its members run into money difficulties, the rest of them instinctively want to flee like rats deserting a sinking ship. You don't hear much talk from Germany or France now about the European project and the benefits to them all of their unity. The test of the strength of a union is not when things are going well but when there are problems that need real help and sacrifice, when things are going badly. People you know as acquaintances don't prove whether or not they are your friend until you call on them when you are in trouble and need their help. That is when they reveal their true colors. Of course I've seen through this pretense Europe puts on for decades. I lived there. I've watched them close up. I got inside their heads. I know these people. That is why I don't like them. Betrayal comes naturally to them. They lie to the world, they lie to each other, and they even lie to themselves. That last one is the worst of all. Self delusion is by far the most destructive of all faults. The threat to go to the IMF is Greece's threat to embarrass and humiliate the EU and is extortion. The response of EU countries telling them to go to the IMF is proof that each is ultimately indifferent to anyone but itself. The so called union is a pure fiction. The single currency is the reality they have created from that fiction that is their fatal trap. Now it will come back to haunt them all. It will be small wonder if each of them doesn't take a good hard look at itself because they know they will not like what they see. It's as plain as the noses on their faces. Both of them.
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181. At 12:14pm on 21 Mar 2010, Menedemus wrote:
Hi Menedemus,
The following from Wikipedia.
"The Commission of the European Communities will officially be renamed European Commission.[10]
The Treaty of Lisbon stated that the size of the Commission will reduce from one per member state to one for two thirds of member states from 2014. This would have ended the arrangement which has existed since 1957 of having at least one Commission for each Member State at all times. However, the Treaty also provided[33] that the European Council could unanimously decide to alter this number. Following the Irish referendum, the European Council decided in December 2008 to revert to one Commissioner per member state with effect from the date of entry into force of the Treaty.[34]"
As you note the European Council (Heads of State) was empowered by the Treaty to abrogate the clause, if unanimously agreed. This provision was part of the Lisbon Treaty, and immediately followed the clauses initially limiting Commission size. I would imagine that the implications were clear from Parliamentary debates.
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182. At 12:25pm on 21 Mar 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Mork,
Lets all wait and see what happens as the Canadians, Americans and Mexicans launch the Amero.
Nanu nanu
shazbut
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@CBW
I note that you are unwilling or unable to give me an example of the Economic and Fiscal EU policy applicable to the EU26, although you stated such a policy exists in contribtion nr. 117.
Re "I would suggest You start proving the EU "..simply is.." by asking yourself and the German Government if it is so confident of German Citizens' support for it why in 20+ years it has not once put any key EU Treaty etc. to a test in the Ballot box?
At the last German National polls some 70+% of Citizens took part: At the 2009 EU Parliament elections a mere 43.3% of German Citizens participated - - now that is a curious set of endorsement statistics for something You claim is an "..inevitable political integration.." if only people "..used their minds.."!"
I would suggest you don't make false conclusions. You conclude from a low turnout that people are against the EU. You can not make such a conclusion. I noted this before, and you have ignored this before (quite typical of you never to reply to critical remarks). So let me invite you again to comment on this point. And let me give you a recent example: local elections in the Netherlands in march 2010 had an all time low turnout. The turnout in one of the most important cities (rotterdam) was only 47%. According to your logic this means that a majority of the inhabitants of Rotterdam are against the 'entity' of Rotterdam.
Re "To try to defend the 'ever closer union' of the EU as having always been the object from inception with the Treaty of Rome is plainly unacceptable and unsatisfactory. It denies all logic by purporting that the EU in its present form was inevitable when there is no reason to believe that is the case for so long as the EUropean Citizens have been denied a say in the development of the EU's institutions."
Perhaps you should read the Rome treaty of 1957 than. 'Ever closer union' was part of the Treaty since the beginning. This carries the most weight, because one could excuse people for not knowing that all the founding fathers of the ECSC/EEC made clear the project had political ambitions, but you can not excuse people from not reading the Treaty (the document that takes away sovereignty from the national level and stipulates the conditions and objectives).
So don't try to rewrite history. The political ambitions and objectives of European integration were there all along and even predate the economic objectives. The economic objectives are means towards the political objectives.
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Mickalus @#183
Thank you for the research and the reference data.
That IS fascinating information.
I guess we all have to hope that the Council of Ministers never decides to abrogate their current decision without telling anyone! ;-)
To ChrisCamp,
I recant my dissertation on the loss of influence I suspected that the Lisbon Treaty delivered in regard to future accession nations subject to the fact that the Council of Ministers now has qualified majority vote and so could eliminate at one stroke (at some time in the future) the 1:1 Commission vs. Nation State capacity to influence Directives and Regulations that emanate from the EU.
I suppose this risk is somewhat mollified by the greater influence of the European Parliament to oversee the Commission and its political decisions but, as ever, I will watch that development with my usual scepticism.
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@MarcusAureliusII (168/169)
Argentina more or less defaulted on its debt a couple of years ago and is now better off because of it. Greece should do the same, and then simply stop operating government on a deficit, there will be no more need to borrow. If countries stop running deficits and stop borrowing, those bankers will see their influence plummet.
And yes I am gloating at Sarkozy's massive domestic defeat, with luck, the man is gone from power inside 2 years. Anything to limit France's influence.
170. At 03:39am on 21 Mar 2010, David wrote: The IMF saved the Asian tigers...Why can it not help Greece?---Because of France's ego?
I think you are correct. The massive ego of France is at work here. Two reasons, first of all anti-USA sentiment, and second the fact that 25% of the Greek debt is to French banks. France wants other countries to put up the money to guarantee the French banks get theirs back.
You see, contrary to widespread belief, not the UK, but France is historically the #1 spoiler/blocker in the EU/EEC. France always wants any major policy of the EU/EEC to benefit France, and if it does not France will either block it or just ignore it.
One French politician however did do something good, De Gaulle prevented the federalists from ramming their ideas through in the 1950's. The man (although he didn't intend it) inadvertedly acted as someone who might well have made it possible to save our national parliamentary democracies, and we still can save them.
185. At 12:55pm on 21 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote: Perhaps you should read the Rome treaty of 1957 than. 'Ever closer union' was part of the Treaty since the beginning. This carries the most weight, because one could excuse people for not knowing that all the founding fathers of the ECSC/EEC made clear the project had political ambitions, but you can not excuse people from not reading the Treaty (the document that takes away sovereignty from the national level and stipulates the conditions and objectives).
Why should we be bound by what some geriatric politicians decided 53 years ago? We the peoples do not want political integration, but the problem is the politicians know this and will try to deny us democracy and prevent referendums because they know the people will be against it. 'Ever closer union' must be undone. Yes I'll take referendums on the Lisbon Treaty, 27 of them. And EU-philes will not, you get to guess once why not.
174. At 05:57am on 21 Mar 2010, Mathiasen wrote: I am quite sure this [classifying letter] is also the standard procedure in The Netherlands and everywhere else. Otherwise leaders could not write letters in confidence to each other and would have to limit their messages to open, public statements.
So you think it is perfectly acceptable that leaders of EU countries write eachother letters and conspire in shady backrooms in order to prevent referendums and prevent the public having a say? This has been going on now for so long that 'EU leaders' may think its standard operating method, but I do not see it that way. I call this a conspiracy. Merkel wanted the antidemocratic Lisbon/constitution thingy rammed through at all costs, even if she had to temporarily disable democracy for it and encourage/bully other countries into cancelling referendums.
The reason for all of this is clear, the EU politicians know the peoples are against further political integration, which is why they are so desperate to prevent referendums and all that. Gordon Brown will no doubt later be rewarded for his treason to the United Kingdom. That is how it works in the EU, EU leaders are encouraged and even rewarded by the system for ignoring what their national electorates want.
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185. At 12:55pm on 21 Mar 2010, Jean Luc wrote: So don't try to rewrite history. The political ambitions and objectives of European integration were there all along and even predate the economic objectives. The economic objectives are means towards the political objectives.
That's exactly the problem right there. The EU-philes only ever accept one-way street solutions. It always has to be more integration, just because a couple of old guys at the time wanted it so. Jean Monnet at the time recognized the peoples would not vote for what he wanted, so he made it known to those around him he was going to propose the EEC/EU be built so that democracy could be circumvented. Monnet, never elected to anything, did not like democracy and looked down on ordinary people.
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re #160. by EUprisoner209456731
I indeed hope the Danish PM will enjoy the weather at the summit.
In media in Denmark he has said that Greece would have to solve the problem herself, but I don't think many pay attention, since Denmark de facto is member of the Euro, and the country accepts whatever the decision of the Euro-16 is.
European matters are somewhat complicated.
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#187. At 1:16pm on 21 Mar 2010, mvr512
Well, I had hoped you would read my message carefully.
Did you notice the information about the dating and that the letters was made public? Ask yourself who has done this and who benefits from this.
Then ask yourself why the same procedure took place in Denmark and again without any negative consequences for the government.
Finally ask yourself if there in any of these cases were offences against any constitutions.
After that we are ready for politics.
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173. David
So you're a "revenuer" huh. I would-nah thunk it. In my part of the country we don't think much of the "Infernal" Service.
The thing that gets me is that one can steal, murder, rape and otherwise act in an unseemly fashion and still stand a chance of avoiding the clutches of the law. But don't dare short the IRS or your butt is going down the river. Look at poor ole Al Capone. Of all the things he was responsible for, the crime that did him in was that he didn't pay the man.
It's all right dude. It's a dirty job but somebody has got to do it. (-_-)
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I'm rooting for Segoline Royal to be the next President of France. She is even more clueless than Sarkozy. In Charlie Rose's interview of Sarkozy, he revealed himself as a buffoon who had no understanding of economics. His ability to rescue France is zero even if he knew what he was doing. As in Greece and all over the EU, the sense of entitlement is so inbred, so much a part of society that any efforts to pare back government waste and giveaways in order to cut taxes and stimulate real growth in productivity of wealth will be met by strikes and every other manner of obstructive protest. This is hardly surprising since most of these populations have not been educated to perform productive work. Add to this the global recession, the financial crisis, and the challenge of the manufacturing juggernaught of China in a free trade world and you have a prescription for Europe being bankrupt. And it is. Its day is over, finally at long last. I never thought I'd live to see it but Lafayette, we have arrived.
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MaudDib, so old Dave is Infernals :))))) oj oj David, aj jaj jaj
Nevermind his infernal qualities :))))), (what a new interesting side) (David, you really can make, that smoke? puff puff, clouds of it :o)))) I'll have an air conditioner ready, if when you come over. joke. I don't have one. I am smoking so I think I'll be able to stand it, will just consider you as a big smoker :o))))
David, the main thing is - Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday, dear David, Happy Birthday to you!
Hearty congratulations with the Day Varenja /Jam Day (as we say don't know why jam. sweet things, must be, associated with), please be healthy, wealthy and wise. xxx on behalf of the whole blog,
Sincerely Alice
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Re192: Marcus, trying making a point. When you talk of self-entitlement for Europe I mean ... at least you should be a Chinese, a Mexican or something else. Not coming from US where you had Bush father, Bush son, Clinton cheating husband, Clinton cheated wife, Kennedy dynasty family and so on...
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mvr512
Re #188
Quote, ".. exactly the problem right there. EU-philes only ever accept one-way street solutions..".
Now, now, don't you go upsetting those believers in the true-word of Rome by suggesting the 'pro-EU' view of Brussels is not the only one permissible!
There can be no challenge to the word of Rome! It is the word & only the 'pro-EU' have the knowledge and understanding for interpretation of the word of Rome. As if anything but the present EUropean Union were ever on anybody's mind in the 1950s!
As all EU evangelists loudly declare: Of course every EUropean Politician involved in the signing of the Treaty of Rome had only one thought in mind: Brussels as centre of EUropean politics!
That Rome Treaty came into effect January 1958 and of course in 2010 everything that has developed in the intervening 52 years was exactly as the original 6 signatories intended...
It is the sort of argument implying neither you, I, nor anyone has the right to suggest the word of Rome on 'ever closer union' may NOT have been quite as clear cut as some would insist we muct all believe!?
In which case why bother with 'democracy' at all - - the whole future of EUrope was decided in 1956-58 - - protesting & coming up with alternatives to the present EU-dogma is tantamount to blasphemy & the Citizens should just keep quiet!
That of course is the classic 'pro-EU' anti-democratic viewpoint. Citizens may express opinions, views etc., but only so long as it is clearly understood by one and all the EUropean Union is sacrosanct.
Why is it sacred to the 'pro-EU'?
Well, in the early 1950s several different pan-European scripts were pulled together and by 1957 some EUropean Leaders decided to sign a collective version called the Treaty of Rome. According to the 'pro-EU' nothing since then has been of any importance!
It is obvious when you look at it: I mean no Laws, Rules, Regulations on any part of Peoples' lives since the Rome Treaty have changed, have they!? No, everything was cast in iron in 1957 and therefore why would anyone complain or find fault 50+ years later!?
Take for instance the EUropean Court of Justice: In 1958 it had 6 member Nation's Judges sitting on it and in 2010 it is 27, but most of the time only 3, 4, 5, 6 Judges sit & hear cases. So, National Legislation for upto 80,000,000 (Germany) and for 500,000,000 (pan-EUropean) is being adjudicated and overturned by as many as 6 unelected Judges!
Now that IS 'Democracy' in action EU-style! So intriguingly different from the version where Citizens have a say in their political-judicial-cultural future.
Yes, we are all really certain when they signed on the dotted line for Rome in 1957 that is exactly what 'Democracy' those EUropean Statesmen had in mind for every Citizen!
PS. One query: Wasn't Monnet at some stage French President?
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MAII might be arrogant (probably the understatement of the century!) but he demonstrates vividly the true colours of the capitalist world we live in and the illusions of E(dis)U. Let's not kid ourselves it is as he says in 182.
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To cool_brush_work (94):
You say that the EU is in transition to take our liberties away, but you don't give any concrete example of it. On the contrary strengthening EU is becoming more democratic and pushing more to advance freedom and liberties of the European citizenry.
There are amble examples of this... the European Parliament stopped the introduction of software patents in the EU area, a big win for individuals, academics and small businesses against interests of big corporations... the European Parliament also stopped agreement to let American officials to get their hands on to the SWIFT banking data of European individuals and corporations, a major win for right for privacy.
There is a transition happening, but that is a transition away from power brokering between states and corporations behind closed doors to open transparent pan-European democracy with checks and balances between different European institutions and member states themselves.
There is no catastrophe, the only regrettable thing is that there is still many that doubt European integration and the EU. EU isn't without faults, but it is starting to look pretty good when compared for example to the US Federal government.
To EUprisoner209456731 (98):
I'm just going to comment few of your notes of from what we should be rescued from...
EU turning into pan-European police state... This is a universal danger and the only antidote to that is vigilance of citizens to hold their elected representatives and government officials answerable on their actions. The EU really doesn't contribute to this danger, actually I would say that at this point of time it is actually decreasing danger of Europe or individual European member states turning into police states. Do note that it has been individual member states themselves that have tried in every opportunity to increase their powers over public, not the EU or its institutions.
EU starting wars of aggression... Again universal danger and I would remind that wars of aggression happen regardless of a size of the state, case in example the Yugoslavian brake up wars. Do remember that for example UK is fighting currently a war of aggression in Iraq. Now voter vigilance is again key to prevent this, but I would welcome any constructive ideas to the discussion on how to prevent this with for example usage of laws and directives.
Increased aggro between European states... There has always been grief and tension between European states, the difference that the EU makes is that it has downgraded potential conflict areas from the expertise of states to expertise of corporations thus decreasing lot of tension between European states.
To MarcusAureliusII (109):
You do realize that the Eurozone has trade surplus, in other words Eurozone produces more than in consumes. The problem with states increasing their debt to GDP ration is internal problem that concerns sharing of money between the state and the public, nothing more nothing less.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703444804575070850915765426.html
You also should realize that the major difference between Europe and USA is that the second is a major oil producer: that makes a huge contribution to the total production of the USA. Still do note that Eurozone and the USA have reached almost parity with GDP nominal, again without Europe enjoying benefit on producing half of the oil that it consumes.
As we are moving from fossil fuel based economy in the next 25 - 50 years, I would anticipate that places that can now post trade surpluses and manage without shouting "drill baby drill" will do quite alright in the future too.
To Huaimek (113):
No offense taken. It is very hard to tell from peoples names on what their gender is, especially if somebody comes from a language group that doesn't belong to Indo-European languages. By the way I don't work for the EU, I work for a major Finnish retail corporation.
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To vassilis (196):
Actually MarcusAureliusII in his 182 sounded like a true blooded socialist: bailing out failed institutions with other peoples money.
Then again, maybe in the USA the definition of socialism has changed, they have bailed out not only banks and financial institutions but also failed manufacturing companies all with taxpayers money. This is not all actually, the investors of the Madoff investment scam are so progressive capitalists that they want the state to make up not only their lost investments but also their imaginary gains.
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@Jukka Rohila
I am not economist, but it seems to me that present day capitalism has more to do with feudal system (collusion of bankers, politicians and super-rich aristocracy to take advantage of a low paid class, essentially serfs, while they have huge gains and surpluses) than an economy with proper regulation, checks and controls for the benefit of the people. As I said, this is my impresion as a non-specialist from what I witness. Don't know if the answer is a form of socialism or a different form of free economy. I just think that people do not get a good deal from the present system which could be unstable in the long run. Of course only time will tell if my impression is correct. For example if the whole problem now is just some Greek excesses, probably there is no global problem. I have a hunch though that the problem is more wide-spread, more fundamental, inherently systemic and it will meet all of us soon. My hypothesis is that Greece has been the first in line (from the relatively advanced economies) for the problem to appear because of its excesses, its particular problems (the weakest link because of its particular problems), and the sovereign defaults could take a domino effect especially in Europe. My impression is that we will be taken nearly all of us one by one or altogether! This is scary stuff! I hope I am wrong and the problem is only Greece. Then, it is not big deal even for Greeks who will certainly suffer but sooner or later will go through the predicament. But if the world around them starts to have similar problems, it is a completely different picture!
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Jukka_Rohilla
Re #199
For Feudalism look no further than the EUropean Union: A more modern imitation of top-to-bottom domination of the masses is difficut to imagine.
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@MA (166)
Funny but as soon as you introduced a phase shift in the system, I finally figured out what is the main negative feedback in it. It's simply the amount of the output that is used to sustain the loop. Consumption, savings, investment, even waste. The higher the output, the higher consumption is, creating a sot of automatic gain control. You just trim the gain with the interest rate. I guess that this is one of those little things that every science takes for granted and never mentions them again.
That forces me to change the model I had in mind though. Using the load as feedback, changes the overall output as a function of imports/exports of the system.
Thanks for the great insight. You gave me lots to think about.
Btw, I know what you mean. Those are 20 year old math I try to remember.
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@199 (vassilis)
The main problem is that most western countries, particular those in the EU, have been financing their welfare states with non-existent money. And now the chickens come home to roost. For decades, public sector unions demanded more and more benefits for public sector workers, gold plated inflation proof pensions etc... in other words all things that most private sector workers do not have, and now people are wondering why governments are so bloated and all out of money.
Germany and France too have a huge problem on their hands, future welfare/pension commitments they have made are unaffordable which is why the two countries are desperately hiding the true extent of these future commitments hoping for some sort of economic super-growth miracle. The welfare state, combined with entitlement culture is what is killing Europe. This is all the effect of too much socialism.
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mvr512 - how do France and Germany have "too much socialism"?
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@mvr512
Some comments unrelated to each other:
So, if socialism is the problem then I would expect that UK has no prob or socialism has crept to UK also?
A system that has no welfare, no free healthcare at least for its people (or at least no target to have so) is a system of not of my liking (who cares you would say but I think most people would agree with me). I would like to hope that we have to strive for such stuff. It is not acceptable I think in the richest country in the world people to die because they have no money for healthcare. This seems preposterous.
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190. At 2:01pm on 21 Mar 2010, Mathiasen
EUpris:
It has been claimed here repeatedly by "EU"-lovers that the imposition of the Lisbon Treaty on the British people is solely a matter for the UK government.
Merkel's interference in Swedish politics makes it clear that there was indeed an anti-democratic pan-"EU" conspiracy.
Merkel's contempt for democracy gives a clear indication of the way the "EU" is heading.
It also shows that democracy in the "EU" has been diminished. Maybe it has been abolished altogether.
It will be interesting to see what happens if an anti-"EU" party is in the Dutch government after the election.
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202. At 6:45pm on 21 Mar 2010, mvr512
EUpris: mv512! Thank you for posting here. A lot of "EU"-lovers seem to think it is only the Brits who hate the "EU".
I once interrogated a British lecturer in "European Studies" about fraud in the "EU". She had no idea how great it was. I asked her where she got her information from. She said "from the European Commission." One of her students said that her lectures were "like a non-stop Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the European Party."
She was a nice enough lady, just misguided.
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South German Newspaper (Sueddeutsche Zeitung)reports "EU" wants to have a say in national budgets.
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"re #160. by EUprisoner209456731
I indeed hope the Danish PM will enjoy the weather at the summit."
Oh great, another summit. The summit of the month. Only considering the circumstances, instead of calling a "summit" shouldn't it be called a "nadir?"
Christos, feedback control theory had math as tough as any subject I've ever studied. More calculus than two calculus books combined. Small wonder that there are so many who use it blindly creating more problems than they solve. Meanwhile tyros who are not particularly savvy about anything to do with electronic circuits have been convinced by manufacturers of very expensive audio amplifiers whose engineers don't know how to properly apply the theory either that negative feedback is bad. The easiest example of negative feedback is steering a car. The input is the direction you want the car to move in, the output is the direction the car actually turns to and moves in, and the feedback (difference) signal that drives the system) is the discrepency between where you intend the car to go and where it actually goes as defined by what you see with your eyes. The driving signal is how far you turn the steering wheel. Until you get the feel of a car (adjust the feedback loop gain) you tend to oversteer or understeer. In vehicles that are slow to respond (such as bumper cars are deliberately at an amusement park) or ships, without understanding this you can actually wind up steering the vehicle in exactly the direction you don't want to go. Open loop systems are like driving a car blindly by only knowing in general terms how many degrees of turning the steering wheel results in how many degrees the car will turn. They also tend to be unstable because even small changes in factors affecting forward gain are uncompensated for. Distortion of open loop electronic amplifiers is also often high.
vassilis #196;
So I out arrroganced the Europeans? I didn't think that was possible :-)
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#179 Europris,
The point I was making there was that there is no unity in the "union", if its Germany or Greece or the UK. it is all the same to me, I like the EU (or at least the idea of it) and I think the current German government and the previous Greek government(s) have done great damage to it.
The problem we are facing today is the lack of unity in the Eurozone, The Euro has a problem, as a solution the current German government can only reply "we wish there wasn't a problem" it is a good wish, but it is not a solution.
It would have been far better for them to say, we have a problem with our constitution that we can't help you, the rest of the Euro sort it out we keep out of it and we say nothing.
We (UK) could help the Eurozone by saying lets get together Eurozone or not, find a solution and move on, we are all in a union. What I complain about is that we don't have that unity work well only in name. We have made billions of GBP contributions to the EU and I would hope that if one day we need some help we will receive some help from our EU partners or if they can't help to at least keep quite and let others that can to help us to do so.
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@ChrisArta 209
Very good points. What hurt most Greeks (the vast majority who are hard working and complain about the corruption, tax evasion etc. AS long as I remember people wanted from governments two issues to tackle: tax evasion and restore meritocracy; they have been dissapointed all by all parties) were the attitude as if the common person in the street stole money (actually the average person in the street is the victim not the perpetator; had no honest parties to choose from; they were all of them together; Siemens bribed all parties). This person is too proud to accept any money anyway, prefers to suffer. Instead of some sort of at least honest moral support and honest words (as you suggest), what we saw, bashing of the Greek people, offensive collective comments, Chancellor Merkel giving speaches that aggravated the problem for domestic consumption and for political gains etc. showing that they want to punish and offend the average person in the street who will suffer anyway. Now the average Greek is angry at both the Greek governemnts and the Germans, feels doubly betrayed... difficult for Greeks to forget this.
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Just to add, that it is certain that there will be demostrations and some resistance to measures especially if you start having people not being able to feed their families. Let's not confuse this with collusion with the corrupt governments. So far, despite the austerity programme and severe changes to taxation there has been very limited opposition.
The strong communist party who was expecting fights in the streets appears to be very dissapointed and complained more or less that the government is appealing (I add successfully so far) to the patriotism of the Greeks to go along with the necessay changes. It accuses the government for this. It would have not accused the government if this was not seen to be successful. I am pretty sure though that we will have demonstrations esp. if people start losing jobs and see no future to survive. Let's hope that we won't reach this point. I strongly believe that tha vast majority of the Greek people despite their dislike for the external factors (speculators etc.) recognise the failings of the previous governments and realise now that they were living to large extent with borrowed moneys while an oligarchy were accumulating wealth (of course there is anger).
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To add one more thing. I have found no-one, not even one Greek to even suggest that other europeans have to bail out Greece. Not even as a thought. Not even the ones demostrating. Not even the people who demonstrate against the markets, against the system or whatever. However, noone was expecting Chancellor Merkel to make speeches that would increase the spreads and made things worse. I was not expecting EU to give strong indication that there is a package of help one day raising expectations of the markets only to be taken back the following day and raise the spreads even further. Of course there should be a way to tackle such crisis somehow, EMF for example, it is a disgrace that EU has been so incapable to foresee such circumastances (why all these bureaucrats are paid?) so incapable to tackle the issue in a consistent and rapid way as much is a disgrace all former Greek governments' criminal actions.
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Mickalus, re your post #57.
Many people's axioms on the EU are fixed, which makes it impossible to change people's mind thru logical argument. So I try to restrict my comments on this board to correcting errors of fact and answering factual questions. Mickalus asked a particularly interesting one in his post #57: how does the IMF work? Since there are people on this board from/in Finland, Switzerland, France, Greece, Russia, UK & US, we are short of common concepts. So I've tried to explain it using something we're all familiar with: American cartoons. Specifically, "Family Guy" (Quahog), "The Simpsons" (Springfield) and "South Park" (er, South Park). So here we go...
The Intercartoon Monetary Fund
Many years ago, the inhabitants of Quahog, South Park and Springfield tried to damp down uncertainty by setting up a monetary fund: the "Intercartoon Monetary Fund", or IMF for short. They each put a large pile of money in a bank and paid interest on it. In return, they recieved the same amount of interest and also some special money. This special money was so really special, they called them "Special Dollars, Really", or SDRs for short. They could use those SDRs as security for loans and they were great. The balance looked like this:
PlaceSubscriptionsInterest paid on subscriptionsSDRs ownedInterest received on owned SDRsSDRs borrowedInterest paid on borrowed SDRsSDRs lentInterest received on lent SDRsQuahog100 Quahog dollars ($Q)10 $Q100100000South Park100 South Park dollars ($P)10 $P100100000Springfield100 Springfield dollars ($S)10 $S100100000
Mickey Mouse bankers
Then during the 90's, the bankers (Mickey Mouse) came up with things called "Cartoon Debt Obligations" (CDOs). Everybody thought they were really cool. So the Mickey Mouse bankers made credit really easy to come by. The governments of Quahog, South Park and Springfield spent stacks and stacks of cash derived from that credit and life was good: Mr Burns made the nuclear plant less unsafe, Barney used the cheap credit to get very, very drunk, Homer bought Lisa a new saxaphone, Flanders started work on an extension of the church to further his community and glorify God. Kenny got unkilled, Cartman got a shiny new trike. And the cast of "Family Guy" made even more excruciatingly unfunny references to obscure Americana that nobody gets.
Oh my God, they killed Kenny
Then in 2008, the Goofy Mickey Mouse bankers realised they'd made a mistake: the CDOs were actually worthless and went to their bedrooms and hid. The governments of Quahog, South Park and Springfield gave the Goofy Mickey Mouse bankers stacks of cash for reasons that were...unclear. But this put the governments enormously in debt. Flanders couldn't finish his extension. The cast of "Family Guy" were reduced to making "Star Trek" references. Cartman lost his trike. Kenny died again.
Flanders went to the Fox Network and said "Hey, "Family Guy" and "Simpsons" are on Fox: can't we pull together?" Lois wanted to help but Stewie would have none of it and said that all the Flanders were drunks. Flanders (a sober industrious soul who said his prayers) thought that was not okely-dokely. Flanders logged on to the BBC to vent his wrath but met only Cartman, who hated the Fox network and was looking forward to its destruction ("Respect mah authorateh!").
Meanwhile, the government of Sprigfield was on the verge of collapse: Mayor Quimby had been cooking the books for years and now the credit had gone. What to do?
How the IMF bails out places
The governments of Quahog and South Park lent 10 SDR each to Springfield, in return for the interest now and repayment later. The table looked like this:
PlaceSubscriptionsInterest paid from subscriptionsSDRs ownedInterest received on owned SDRsSDRs borrowedInterest paid on borrowed SDRsSDRs lentInterest received on lent SDRsQuahog100 Quahog dollars ($Q)10 $Q90900101South Park100 South Park dollars ($P)10 $P90900101Springfield100 Springfield dollars ($S)10 $S1001020200
Springfield used the loan of 20 SDRs as security for bonds and managed to pay its staff. Springfield paid 2 SDRs extra in interest on the loan (1 SDR to Quahog, 1 to South Park). Since Quahog and South Park were still recieving the same amount of interest, they were OK as long as Springfield paid back the SDRs eventually.
But the IMF's representative (Sideshow Bob) got Mayor Quimby fired. Homer lost his job. Lisa lost her saxophone. Marge is very worried. Flanders is incensed that the church won't get finished and Cartman is furious that Springfield is bailed out.
And that's how the IMF works. Substitute US/UK/France/Germany for Quahog and South Park, Greece for Springfield, and Special Drawing Rights for Super Dollars Really, and mickey mouse bankers for Mickey Mouse bankers, and you've got it.
Hope that helps, viewcode
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...Of course, if the HTML tables in my above post 213 had worked (it worked fine in the preview!), the post would have been a *lot* more impressive. Unfortunately it didn't. So it just looks stupid. My bad, apols, viewcode.
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The most significant events on Sunday were that the USA after a debate you would expect from a country without much education has taken a step in the direction of a modern state, indeed only with the smallest thinkable majority, and now seem to get a health insurance system that will only leave out a little group of citizens, and secondly that the French president has achieved a very bad result at the regional elections in France, which opens the race for the presidency in 2012.
However, on Sunday Berlin also discussed the coming meeting in the EU, but said nothing about the result. An article in Frankfurter Allgemeine from 21 March 2010 analyses the uncertainty about the line of the German government in the currency matter.
Chancellor Merkel is trying to keep the issue away from the EU meeting this week. Her remarks about the IMF are supposed to work as a diversion, and in the meantime it has become quite unclear what minister of finance Schäuble had in mind, when he proposed an EMF, and so nobody knows what the Germany government wants. It is not the first time that Merkel uses a tactics of that kind.
Before the meeting at the chancellors office Sunday evening participants ruled out any transfer of German taxpayers’ money to Greece, but Berlin knows that is will be necessary to discuss how to avoid a similar situation in the future. Also the other member states want to discuss the currency, and therefore it will be on the agenda.
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There are many perhaps in this whole scenario.....
Perhaps the PASOK government does actually want to put things right in Greece. Circumstance has led to the real need for change, but no party will be allowed to make this complete turn about of political stance that has become entrenched in the running and electing of Greece. So it has been ideal in that out of state bodies are demanding that drastic changes be made to the economic structure within Greece. These changes should have been gradually introduced since post war, but civil war, dictatorships and general unrest have not allowed parties to be open ( even if they had once intended to ) and rely on votes, so they have bought them.Only the demands of Europe or the IMF can lead to the saving of Greece and a bail out as such may not be the answer, but supporting Greece against fraudulent attacks on its economy are essential for it to make it through in one piece. The end result will be tremendous for the Greek people IF the finances that eventually come into the system are used honestly. Until then the cuts and increased taxes are going to be crippling for the common man ( many facts released to the world are so misrepresented that it is hard for those living elsewhere to grasp the fact that the average Greek family lives on a very small income that has to fund an improved level of education and health through private lessons, bribes etc to even get a semblance of service which other Europeans take for granted.). Will those who have be MAN enough to shoulder the burden that they have avoided for so long and think of their nation rather than their pocket?
Perhaps this is all once again a game of bankers and financiers who are looking for a quick buck at whatever cost? Why those who began all this have not been arrested or at least stripped of their false gains is beyond me and many others.
Perhaps the bankers have not been punished as this game began much higher in the battle for power. Perhaps the US, who most definitely do not want a united EU and economy, encouraged or turned a blind eye to this wild betting with people's savings in order to bring about the downfall of other economies and so therefore resetting the standards. Perhaps Germany, the UK want a weaker Euro so as to be free to export or import their goods and boost their own economies.
Perhaps, perhaps... but for sure the Western world at this point in time is in a state of fright and the average man is just waiting to see what the powers that be will do to us next. The sense of helplessness is immense and confidence is minimal. We want to live as best we can , in peace, and will hopefully not allow the new rulers of this age push us over the edge.
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... Perhaps the flu scare didn't generate enough panic and income through lucrative deals with pharmaceutical companies in a bid to hide the debts of many countries.Perhaps it didn't accidentally kill off enough of the excess masses in the process, although we are still to see the results of mass inoculation and what business this may generate in the future.
Perhaps a new and even more terrifying way of boosting the economy needs to be introduced, like war. As has been proved in the past there's nothing like a good old war to boost production and perhaps kill off a few of the excess masses, particularly young and healthy males who would prove to be such a burden in later life.
Perhaps this sounds too far fetched and conspiracy minded, but nowadays with the morals exhibited by those who should know better, this does not sound so out of the realms of reality! Perhaps there are others who could add to this list of PERHAPS!
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@ 208 MarcusAureliusII
“Only considering the circumstances, instead of calling a "summit" shouldn't it be called a "nadir?"
I did not know you were so well acquainted with the astronomy. If I follow, I would tell: “instead of calling a “ZENITH” it would be called a “NADIR”…
that is to say the lowest part of the Universe….
Bravo Mark, your expressive talk sounds like a last judgement for all the efforts, we humble EUropean folks make in order to put more order on our premises.
Thank you very much indeed for the enlightenment teacher!
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@ 194 Nik
“…When you talk of self-entitlement for Europe I mean ... at least you should be a Chinese, a Mexican or something else. Not coming from US where you had Bush father, Bush son, Clinton cheating husband, Clinton cheated wife, Kennedy dynasty family and so on...”
Markus is just an encyclopaedist /like Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot and the others/. That fact explains everything. We should be happy to breathe the air he’s breathing…
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Democracythreat
I am sorry to read that you are So bitterly anti everything UK .
One thing you wrote struck me as very true . " Europe is not the UK and it has very different historical perspectives ".
The UK is a group of islands on the edge of the European continental shelf . Equally The UK is not Europe and has very different historical perspectives , that do not merge with those of the European mainland .
I'm not sure who refered to " Westminster type government " being applied post WWII across all of Europe . When British and North American Allies , together with Russia , had defeated Nazi Germany and Italy and had liberated France and other European countries that had been occupied ; it seems logical that the victors should set up governments in those countries in the manner they are accustomed to .
I am well accustomed to hearing the resentments of Italian citizens against the capitalist Americans , who spent so much to rebuild European countries that had been destroyed .
I know that everything is bigger and better in the United States , or so most americans will tell you .
British people are more reserved and self posessed ; I do not think it is entirely the fault of British people ,if those of defeated or occupied countries feel a sense of inferiority complex . British people do not go out of their way to be arrogant towards Europeans .
Thank you Jukka Rohila for your kind words . I note that you admire the Germans as a race . Did I not read that the Finns fought on the side of Germany during WWII , I recall attacking Leningrad from the north . My daughter is married to a most charming German whom we dearly love ; a man with a huge knowledge on many subjects and with a great sense of humour . I embarrassed myself on my first visit to Berlin for their wedding ; by asking him to show me where berlin had been completely flattened by Anglo/American bombing . I had been reading as an introduction to Germany ," Berlin The Downfall " by Antony Beevor .
I keep seeing references to the 1975 Referendum in the UK . British Conservative PM Ted Heath took Britain into the EEC . Even if he and other politicians knew that the EEC was The Treaty of Rome ; the implications of Ever Closer Union were deliberatly kept secret from the people . The referendum under Harold Wilson's Labour government , asked the British people if they would like to leave the EEC . That is not quite the same as an endorsement . Many people I have known or spoken to have said that ,had they known that it was leading to Ever closer Union , The EU , they would have voted to leave the EEC , as I did . The British have been persistantly misrepresented by successive governments . We have completely lost faith in our politicians . If we all voted UKIP at the next general election in May , there is no guarantee that the could govern Britain . The Labour Party and Brown will almost certainly lose power for their betrayal in not having a referendum on the Lisbon treaty . We have NO respect for politicians ; one cannot be sure what a Conservative Government will do either . British politicians are so unscrupulous and thick skinned , they couldn't care less if they misrepresent the wishes of the people .
I read mention of the benefits of EU membership , but UK citizens do not see any benefits . Britain mostly trades at a deficit with Europe , profitable trading is with the rest of the world .
British people are not just little islanders , against all the peoples of mainland Europe . Our Euroscepticism , Hate , is against the European Commission , The European Parliament , The European judiciary and courts of law and the enormously wasteful bureaucracy . British people want a government in Westminster to govern Britain , British Common Law and no outside interference or directives from Brussels or Strasbourg .
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ChrisArta
Yes , You are right , there is NO Unity in the Union .
In my view , Nor Will There Ever Be . The EU as a single federal state is an unworkable dream , that I doubt will ever be . That does not mean there isn't affection and friendship between Sovereign states and peoples right across Europe . John Major , when he signed Maastricht believed that Europe should enlage and become a Commonwealth of Sovereign states . The central core of original Treaty of Rome signitories on the European mainland might easily have formed a single federal state . Today or Tomorrow , with 27 member states whose histories and perspectives are so diverse , it is not likely to happen .
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Seems to me that in the next national elections in France/Germany the socialists could do very well. Seems to me that people are not happy with the current conservative governments.
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Huaimek I have already commented on what is wrong with the EU: in a few words, the Union of the countries' interests is not a bad thing in itself. If EU is taking coutnries' independence then what about NATO? You think it is all about proecting us from Iran or something? Ppppplease!
The problem with the EU is that it does exactly what it should not, i.e. interfere with countries internal issues, and it does not what exactly it should do, i.e. present a common defense dogma and a very general outline on sharing of ressources to the profit of everyone: e.g. it serves nothing for Austria and Hungary to have 2 completely different policies in terms of gas provisions.
Unfortunately, the EU has taken a wrong turn since the mid 1970s. The only turn it should take back then was to replace the NATO with an EU equivalent and let European countries take their own path as independent but allied and co-operating distinct states.
Now as for Britain, yes Britain geopolitically has diverse interests that are not always compatible with EU. Hence it has taken the agreements as a multiple choise, tick this, don't tick that... In general it is the finance guys that want Britain with one foot out of the EU, and the industrial guys who want more integration. However, amazingly, it is not the industrial guys that decide on Britain staying in, but the finance guys, and that is the big question: why do they do it really if not to be inside and "observe, intervene and correct". Just in case EU takes "the wrong turn"...
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bdsm wrote:
"Perhaps this is all once again a game of bankers and financiers who are looking for a quick buck at whatever cost? Why those who began all this have not been arrested or at least stripped of their false gains is beyond me and many others."
It's a good question. As a lawyer, I find it fascinating that if one is wearing a suit and representing a corporation, the world of criminal law for small people gets left far behind, as if it applied on some distant planet, for a different species of life form.
Leaving to one side the issue of the bailouts and the calculated fraudulent accounting which led to them, it is easy enough to witness corporate fraud against small people in everyday life.
When banks with legal departments send out thousands of bills for charges they know they have no right to charge, and when they simple take the money from the customer, what is that? Is it theft, or simply a "business move"?
If you or I did that to other people, if we took their money knowing full well we had no legal claim to it, and we tried to justify it with a letter, what would that be?
We would be common criminals, and the police would take great pride in treating us as such. We'd be guilty of the crime of theft. We'd be thieves.
But when a corporation, such as a bank or a telecommunication company, simply takes money from people, knowing full well it has no right to do so, this is not theft. It is "business". People have civil remedies to try and get their property back, which means they can hire lawyers to take on huge corporations for the sake of a few hundred pounds, which is absolutely no remedy at all, which is why the practice of corporate theft against small people is so rampant and widespread.
But the criminal law steps aside when corporations steal from small people. The only time the criminal law musters the courage to take on corporations is when they steal from government, the tax office. And even then, most of the time the government is stuck with civil remedies.
And the issue is not explained by referencing the way theft is perpetrated. Corporations do not get away with theft because it is paper based fraud. Not at all. Firstly because in many instances it is clearly theft: they deduct the money from your account. They actually take the property without authority. So that is clear theft, not paper based fraud. But the other reason i say it has nothing to do with the law is because if you or I went around perpetrating paper based frauds to scam people of their property, we'd be locked up by the police just as if we'd stolen the property outright. Fraud is a crime. The police get involved and you get arrested, IF you are a little person.
But not if you are a corporation. If you are a corporation, people have civil remedies, which are an invitation to give what money they have left to lawyers. There is no policing of corporate behaviour.
This is even true in many instances of violent crime. Consider the corporate security guard. When a security guard brandishes a weapon or manhandles a civilian, by what perversion of law are they immune from charges of assault and battery? Simple because they wear a uniform?
So, it is a good question as to why bankers can behave they way they do. I have thought about it for years, and am none the wiser. There really does seem to be one set of laws for small people and another set for those who operate via the medium of the corporation. Even at law school this was apparent to me. I even retitled my texts from "Criminal Law" and "Corporate Law" to "Poor Law" and "Rich Law".
The historical parallel is feudalism, and caste based societies where certain classes of human beings have special powers at law. Some are slaves, some are lords.
But to really answer the question about why and how the bankers escape the criminal law, I guess you'd need to make some pretty controversial statements about how the state and western capitalism interact.
Elliot Spitzer recently made the acute observation that we don't need more regulation of the financial industry, we just need the regulation that exists to be enforced.
He has a point, but at the same time he points to a fundamental characteristic of western capitalism. You are free in the west, free to say whatever you want to say. There is no KGB or stasi watching everything you say, you have freedom of speech.
But if you say the wrong thing too clearly, even once, you will never get another promotion, and you may never work again. Because everyone is listening all the time, and everyone is reporting up the chain of command inside a corporate or party based structure of hierarchy.
That is why is believe the bankers and corporate elite can do as they wish. There is nowhere as strict and brutal with dissidents as the corporate world and party elite who control the police force and army.
If you even think about things as outrageous as putting bankers before the criminal law, you will never get anywhere in the public or corporate world. That is one of those things you just "understand" in the west, just as in the soviet system people learned to "understand" that you never, ever criticized the communist party.
I mean, you could. And lots of people would agree with you. But you'd never work in the police force or hold any authority ever again.
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Re.224: DemocracyThreat, could not agree more, really I am not even getting into the effort to take your points - I underline what you mentioned, about a feudalisation of our societies.
And I make the link of "feudalism" to what I see currenly in terms of land management (land reforms, outrageous pricing of lands, creation a landless mass of people, lands under disputed sovereignty ending up as... corporate land as in Iraq, Kosovo etc.,). I think the term feudalism describes it completely. As in the middle ages feudal lords had no major link to their surrounding societies other than feeling entitled by God to rule over some land, be it in western Europe, conquered and destroyed Byzantium or Palestine possesions, today's feudal lords are investing in all countries aiming at occupying strategic plots of land having all ressources not in the name of nations they come from but for their own small-circle interest. Seen under that angle, an attack against Iraq could be even an attack against US citizens as with their money these people acquire posessions in a "hot-spot" foreign country for their own profit while of course giving all American people "a bad name" around the world.
Under that perspective, EU as it has evolved, taking the path it takes, can be seen as a "mini-me" wannabe. It is frightening.
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206. At 8:35pm on 21 Mar 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote: mv512! Thank you for posting here. A lot of "EU"-lovers seem to think it is only the Brits who hate the "EU".
That is a common myth the EU-phile politicians love to spread. They always try to keep up the pretense the EU is very popular and that everyone is in favor of 'endless integration'. But slowly, the facade is crumbling. As even German politicians find out their peoples aren't enthusiastic at all, and the 'German war guilt trick' that France used on Germany for so long has also stopped working on the German people.
Even in my country, the socalled EUnthusiastic Netherlands, the reality is now quite different. Sure, there is still (albeit a shrinking) a majority of politicians in favor of it, but I wager to say that popular support for political integration is at an all time low (probably lower than 25%). People here are still extremely unhappy about the 'Lisbon' situation where our referendum was ignored, and also unhappy about the eurozone and the prospect of having to cover the debts of other countries.
I completely recognize your story about the 'European Studies' teacher. I am myself a part time student of accounting and control, and on our university we also have 'European Studies' and the website even gloats about using 'Commission provided material'.
In other words, an entire generation of future EU apparatchiks is being 'bred' on nothing but EU propaganda. I do not think this is a coincidence. And these are usually the types that dismiss people like me for being 'ignorant' and 'anti-Europe'. Turns out its them who are ignorant and out of touch.
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Well, they are "in touch" with the people who matter.
I think that is one of the big attractions of the EU. It really is a club for people who matter. And for people who want to stand next to people who matter.
I have often wondered about the gloating anti-democratic position of the EU faithful, and the leadership. I don't see the need for them to gloat. Especially in the early days, before the "so lang" case in the german constitutional court, the ECJ would go right out of its way to make sure everybody understood that the EU was not, and did not wish to be, a democratic body of institutions.
I found that odd when I read the cases, and I still find it odd.
It really is as if the aristocracy of europe, and those who preen themselves whilst standing next to it, are wistful for an earlier time. It is as if they have created the EU to try and reclaim an age where their grandeur and authority were not only unquestioned, but celebrated. And thus, they parade the anti-democratic nature of the EU to the people, as if to say "We are back!".
I find these folks jut as odd as the hard core marxists who honestly believe that a group of party faithful hold the one true source of knowledge in the world, to be doled out to the party faithful in special rituals, like an intellectual sacrament.
They're both dinosaurs, and yet both try to perpetuate themselves against a growing public literacy in an interconnected world.
I suppose that in Europe they are rich dinosaurs, and I suppose they are entitled to believe they own the political system anyway, as it was built for them in the first place, and hence the masses can't complain if they've become a bothersome nuisance who need to be ignored.
But there is a open contempt for the common people from the EU elite which is hard to explain. It is partly this business of "labour" representatives calling themselves "Baroness" and "Count" and so on. That goes beyond ridiculous and into the realm of calculated insult. But it is also partly the steadfast refusal to employ technology to even trial direct democracy in a few areas of the legislative arena.
I mean, the EU was a grand experiment. Everything it created was new, progressive and bold. And it had a whole host of different styles of government on display. So why was there not even the slightest nod towards a process of direct democracy?
The legislative procedures for the EU make the parliament a spectator in nearly every case, thus taking a step away from real democracy instead of towards it.
Do the EU elite think people have become less fit for democracy, that people have become less literate or knowledgeable? I don't think that can be the case. I think it is beyond clear that people are more literate and better informed than ever. And yet, the architects of the EU devised it in such a way as to marginalize the common people, to cut them out of the governmental deal.
Why? For what possible purpose? Regardless of the aims of the architects, would not compromise with the people have improved the likelihood of their success?
I really think the motivation to cut the common people out of any power in the new Europe was emotionally driven. I truly believe it was the petty spite and pride of people who honestly believe they are born superior to their peers, and who are offended that common people do not bow down to them when they walk by.
I sometimes try to get into the mind of someone who would call themselves "Count" or "Baron" in public, but I cannot. I think you have to be brought up to such ridiculous notions of innate superiority, to have your mother and your priest whisper to you that god loves you most of all, and that fate has made you the leader the common people need, to protect them from evil.
No wonder Markus rebels against the affectations of grandeur. I can only imagine coming from a society that actually has some claim to superiority, and watching these toy weirdos parade themselves around for everybody divine benefit.
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I understand MA. I'm an engineer and negative feedback is good. We use it all the time. You can not even imagine how many applications of negative feedback exist in the appliances you have in your house. I just got fascinated when I realized that macroeconomics used more or less our control systems theory. Ever since, I try to understand the general model economists use, simply to have a better understanding of what's really going on with the world economy (a common engineer obsession when facing a new problem). .
It is hard though, because even though I can read the math I find on the internet, I lack the economic foundations to truly understand them. So, I just simply gather information from bits and pieces, here and there.
My biggest fear is what you said. Economists using math they don't truly understand, to find solutions that they have no idea what they mean. Theoretically you can have a nice solution for a stable economy. If that solution though, puts half the population into starvation, then this is not a solution but a new problem.
In electronics we are lucky. Our cycles last for milliseconds and if our models are wrong, we simply destroy a few ICs. Economists have cycles that last years and their mistakes affect real lives. They cannot afford to be wrong.
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Huaimak
Re #220
Beware!
There is a blind-spot in the otherwise astute & interesting DemocThreat contributions: It is the ENGLISH & anything associated with ENGLISH!
In line with this antipathy:
DemocThreat first referred to 'Westminster' being imposed on EUrope post-WW2.
DemocThreat is consistent in loathing anything 'english-speaking': He went so far in a couple of comments as to describe the English as 'the most bloodthirsty race' in History.
In another he more recently stated that given a choice between the EU and Britain, it was the EU 'everytime'.
DemocThreat will acknowledge, your and my point of view, that UK/England as a group of Islands has had an entirely different experience from mainland EUrope - - however, he will then berate English Common Law, English Honours system, English 'Democracy', English Education, English Culture and... well, You get the idea...
DemocThreat avoids 'like the plague' the 'English'.
DemocThreat believes England is still ruled & controlled by the 'Royal Family' & their 'relatives' plus their lackey 'Lordships'.
All that said, DemocThreat's comments on any other issue, are often lucid, reasoned and thoroughly entertaining which is a lot more than can be said for many of mine & others on here!
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207. At 8:49pm on 21 Mar 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote: South German Newspaper (Sueddeutsche Zeitung)reports "EU" wants to have a say in national budgets.
Well there's a surprise. Never a crisis the EU will not try to use as a 'beneficial crisis'. The concept of 'beneficial crisis' is this, whenever a problem/crisis arises, the EU will propose 'more EU' as a solution and in such a way 'profit' from the problem/crisis.
They also want to increase the EU budget to 5-7% of GDP. Well, some in the Euro faux-parliament want it, that much we do know. People like me will resist it.
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DemocThreat
Re #227
Quite accurate about the 'pomposity' of the EU Leadership. No doubt You would lump the UK Leadership at the top of that 'Baron' labelled pile!
However, I would claim that the "why" of the stepping back from 'Democracy' and the educated 'Masses' accessing a real voice in the EUropean Union is the two-fold elements I have long listed on these Blogs.
'Big-Business/Big-Government': In tandem they make the EU all it is today - - 'unaccountable, unrepresentative and anti-Democratic' - - when we then apply the inevitable results of such avaricious dual-vested interests we arrive at 'venal, corrupt and undemocratic'.
Seems obvious: Others (though by EU Election Low Voter Turnout there are less and less of them) do not see it that way!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8579719.stm
" ...
BBC Persian Television is one of the channels being jammed by Iran ...
The European Union will put pressure on Iran to stop jamming satellite broadcasts from the BBC and other international channels.
Iran has been blocking news channels broadcast into the country from a French satellite ..."
EUpris: So hopefully the "EU" will not protest if one day opponents of the "EU" start transmitting into 'the lands governed by the "EU"-Dictatorship" ' from a jurisdiction outside the "EU".
We should be thinking about these things now.
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217. At 07:32am on 22 Mar 2010, bdsm wrote:
" ... As has been proved in the past there's nothing like a good old war to boost production and perhaps kill off a few of the excess masses, particularly young and healthy males who would prove to be such a burden in later life.
Perhaps this sounds too far fetched and conspiracy minded ..."
EUpris: Not at all! Read "Die Philosophie des Krieges by Professor Dr. Steinmetz (The Philosophy of War - pre-WWI, Social Darwinist text. I am quoting from memory. I have in a stacker box here in my bunker.)
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Greece does not need money; it needs exactly the opposite and Mrs Merkel is doing a fine job so far, albeit she is doing it in a politically unrefined way, which causes great damage to Germany's interests in Greece and possibly among members of the eurozone.
Greece is corrupt and irrational at a level that arguably has no precedent in its modern history; at all levels, it is governed by its most mediocre and immoral citizens, while its most intelligent and creative people migrate to the US, UK and continental Europe, because there is simply no room for them to breathe; everyone is doing as he/she pleases with complete disregard for the law or other people's freedom; and they base social advancement on connections and lack of morals instead of hard work and planning.
The conservative Athens daily 'Hestia' wrote today that Greece does not really need any loans in order to balance its deficit, because the public sector is so badly managed that the money needed is already there but leaks in directions that nobody knows about any longer. In that sense, Greece does not cook its books - it simply has no real bookkeeping.
The Greek PM's plea for 'political support' is not really convincing. What the corrupt Greek political system really asks for is more money from its partners so that they can keep up their gross mismanagement at the expense of the Greek and other European citizens. By not committing herself to a European aid scheme, Mrs Merkel is not strangling or punishing the Greeks; on the contrary, she is setting them free by draining the monetary resources of its political elite and causing its downfall. Amen.
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Great article in my opinion:
The Broken Society
'Economically, Blond lays out three big areas of reform: remoralize the market, relocalize the economy and recapitalize the poor. This would mean passing zoning legislation to give small shopkeepers a shot against the retail giants, reducing barriers to entry for new businesses, revitalizing local banks, encouraging employee share ownership, setting up local capital funds so community associations could invest in local enterprises, rewarding savings, cutting regulations that socialize risk and privatize profit, and reducing the subsidies that flow from big government and big business.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/opinion/19brooks.html?src=me&ref=homepage
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HOMER SIMPSON
It is a pleasure to hear that President Obama is dragging the American people into the civilised world by introducing free medical care which was pioneered by Britain in 1948. (have you got a state pension yet as was introduced by Bismarck in Germany nearly 130 years ago?) This will still not be done without a fight but its mere introduction is a sign that all is not yet lost for this nation.
Certainly the American Dream has turned into a nightmare for many not least for those who live in and around Detroit where according to a BBC documentary I saw last week mere existence is a bonus in social conditions that resemble an urban landscape after the dropping of an atomic bomb,like Hiroshima or indeed Dresden in 1945.
If there are any more ideas which President Obama might like to copy from Europe to improve the lot of the average American citizen please feel free to do so.
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viewcode,
this is just to acknowledge that I read with great interest your creative writing @213, full of unknown to me characters :o))))) (but Mickey Mouse) and have a picture now, how to say, far better, of the world, and ? seriously I appreciate it.
As minimum I am sure I know now that there was a Lisa who had a saxophone.
Add to this Christo-Mavrelius phase shift and negative feedback, and things really start to, how to say, :o))))) (I'm not sure which things)
but let's say get ? brighter!
:o)))))))
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Re.229: CBW... acually your good-meant but hard critiscism on DemocracyThreat, made me realise more exactly his perspective both on EU and England.
I would not describe the English as a "bloodthirsty race" but having had the major Empire of the last 2 centuries up to WWII, they had their fair share of human destruction - I only need to put the famine in India of late 1800s where anything from 10 to 20 million people died for British to sell rice and tea at better prices back in Europe, to put the whole issue in the right context. At least, German Nazis and Bolshevik Communists killed for ideology, British let people die knowingly simply for making profit.
Somehow, this "letting people die for making profit" sounds less offensive, more acceptable than Nazis and Commies killing people for their "mumbo-jumbo pseudophilosophical destiny". So it is bad to kill in the name of god or a world-view but it is more or less normal to kill for pure profit. Perhaps it is because modern societies have replaced god with money.
CBW do not get uptight about it. I do seem a British-harsh-critic, but in fact a self-proclaimed (and you can laugh if you want) geopolitical analyst like me treats Britain with some special interest. I still do regard British politics much more complex than US ones which do seem a bit more... hmmm... more provincial to my eyes. Marcus, this is not meant to be said in a derogatory manner, it is just to explain the difference between the depth of British politics to the relative (of course) straightforwardness of US ones. France and Germany attacking Britain ending up in Russia says it all (I cannot laugh on that, too many millions dead, but...). Anyway...
If something that DemocracyThreat has right is his view that the powerful circles are no more than MFLs... Medieval Feudal Lords.
And I will explain this in a paragraph by reminding to Vassilis who searches things in economics that ALL economics is both a science (in the sense of combining biology, physics, human physiology, psychology and politics with mathematics) and a form of charlatanism (in the sense that at the end of the day economics are based on values and values are not universal but are simply based on mutual trust - but then we know the motto trust no-one). In life the only thing that matters is land, water, plants & animals and then ressources such wood, iron, perhaps oil (if you use it etc.). As exchange units you can use whatever real value, Gold is alright since it has a lot of value since it is a metal you can use 1000s of times unlike iron that rusts: even if 2-3 Kankan Moussas (google...) pass by your town and devalues the gold to 1/10th of its value, you will not lose just because the trust in the value of metal is lost, since at least you have the metal in your hands. Much more that is true about land. Land is the last thing that you give (Sun Tzu - fable of Chinese King facing Mongol attackers). All the rest - currencies and such are just checks, covered or uncovered checks (I think the Scottish pound banknote, still mentions it as a check...). Now, is it accidental that the MFLs are not listed in the worlds' richest people since their property is mainly in the form of land? That should tell you something...
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DemocracyThreat,
You must be so proud. Nik is your biggest supporter.
Congratulations,
David
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o:)
When Snake Gorynych (big dragon monster of 3 heads, Rus. national fairy-tale hero) was told that there is one such a tsardom where rules a tandem he got horrified. Competition! Mutation! Ecology!
:o))))))
Finally is set up for work again the Big Andron Collider, and the scientists promise us that the first results of its work we will see already in 2012.
:o))))
News: Unknown people grabatised mathematician Perelman and keep him hostage. They promise to release him only if he finally accepts the 1 mln dollar award. In cash.
(St. Pete teacher stubbornly refusing to receive his maths' awards)
:o)
A famous writer receives 10 dollars per word.
A famous movie-script writer receives 20 dollars per word.
A Kremlin floor-cleaner receives 10,000 dollars per word.
:o)))))
People don't believe that Zhiguli - it's a car. That's why Togliatti dwellers (the factory town) repeat the word "automobile" in the name of their company - AutoVaz - twice. Automobile Volga Automobile Zavod (factory).
:o)))))) In fact, true!
Having figured out that Perelman won't take money, int'l math societies began awarding him with more and more awards. When the sum reached US 500 mln Perelman, xxx!, took it :o))))))))))
In the old Sparta, simultaneously, there ruled two tsars, from two different tsar Doms (Agiada and Europontida). Both tsars had equal rights and each one could take decisions without preliminary agreement with the other one.
It doesn't remind you of any thing?
:o))))))
- Let's have a glass of "sake"!
- Where from? We don't have it.
- Aren't we Russians? Will heat up vodka in microwave :o)))))
As to me, I dream that Georgia and Ukraine are taken into NATO.
- How is so, why?
- To finally be able to say NATO good-bye :o))))))))))
Looked into the calendar. End of the world 21 Dec 2012 falls onto Friday. So, we will work through the whole week - and then - how about the weekend?!!
"Peaple education rikwaires riforms! Literucy of papulation in ikstraordinary low level! We nid urgent measures! Situashn catastraphical! Time to beat in oll the bells! Atherwise - trabl!"
Doctar of Philalagical Sciences, prafessor V. Victor Anatolievich, Moscow State Onniversity.
:o)))))
I call my cat Muffin Pilatov - he is fat and washes up his paws.
:o)
Typical Russian: demands something, shouts, threatens, puts ultimatums,
slams his fist on the table, but at the end never gets what he wants.
Typical Tatar: always agrees with everyone, goes for compromise, surrenders his positions, makes surrenders and at the end always gets what he wants.
Typical Chechen: gallops on his horse, shoots taking aim very well, diligently prays, proudly dances, then at the end suddenly dies.
Typical Ukrainian: proves to all that he never eats pig fat, scolds muscovites, votes for Timoshenko, dreams about entereing NATO. Then marries a Russian.
:o)))))
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Lets play a bit more with Germany and Greece.
Now Germany leads the EU along with a largely complacent France that remains aloof chasing its large military, nuclear and spatial applications things that few other Europeans can touch - even Germans are far from being there. So Germans developed the role of the main interlocutors when it comes to little countries like Greece that are less than the 2,5% of EU combined GDP!
So how do the Germans approach little Greece? Hmmm .... first they attack Greece for its "horrible monopolies", the Telecoms, the Electricity. Bad things! State companies! Bad things! Too many employees, bad management. Scandals! No matter if these companies where the states' jewel: two fully profitable companies even taking into account the endemic corruption, giving pretty good services to citizens at amazingly low rates that no competition could ever present and on the top people talked, paid and the money returned on them as the profits of the companies where placed either on further investments or other state investments. Far from presenting any communist dream here (and it is visible I am not even left-wing!), citizens-customers got some real value there.
Then Germans make the full round following telecoms, electricity, military armaments, construction sector, shipyards, everywhere the Germans, French managed to get the upper hand only in the Athens metro and the Rio Antirrio bridge since they are more experienced in such large complex projects than Germans. But everywhere else where there were not any technical complications, it was the Germans.
And how Germans were taking all the jobs? By being better? Mercedes quality or something - do not think so: we saw the quality in the submarines we ordered, out of which 1 leans at an embarassing angle without much hope of redressing the problem without exploding the project, and all that while Greeks have given the 80% of the price of the vessel - an international first (so imagine how many people the Germans have corrupted to get the money in advance - I sign this, all that from a little poor country they themselves accuse debt-ridden).
So how things work really in the EU?
"Eu" (see Germany) comes to Greece and says "Hey, Greeks! Time for development, hand in hand with us. Look you can built this superb bridge - do not worry if it is not needed, it will give birth to future needs. Look, the project costs more or less 400 millions, we give the 200, you put the 200, ok?".
In reality the project costs not 400 but 800 since Greece is not Holland, it is a mountanous country and every large project is simply said "double and often triple price" - add also that much of the tools have to be imported since there is lack of local suppliers and infrastructure. So to convince the "local primitives", Germans hand out some mirros: they will spend around 50 million of it spreading it among an extended number of German and Greek (oh yes, German too, yes, it is just that Germans are mainly of the private sector, Greeks of the public one...) responsibles,.
Now EU (not Germans!) gave 200 millions - say Germans gave the most of it around 120 millions. Greeks put 650 millions of their very real money!!!! Cut the local expenditures, Germans earn back gross a batch of 500 millions out of which say some minimum 30% is net profit (it can be more in such large projects!).
No sorry, just put it in the right context:
Germans pay 120 and take also 80 million from other Europeans (hehe, and a bit of Greek money in that!). And they finally earn back 500 gross, all themselves!!! Out of which a 30% about 170 is net profit. But then all the rest just enters the German economy and feeds the scheduling of 10s of companies and 10,000s of people who will in turn move the German economy and pay tax etc. etc.
So Germany gives 120 millions it will certaily under all circumstances get back in the form of projects while little poor debt-ridden Greece gets even more debts to finance with its very real 600 millions.
Got the idea? Got also the idea how the chain of corruption works in countries like Greece?
I am sure if German people - who are hardworking people and do not like hearing their money ends up in lazy ones - knew how really things move inside the EU, they would go out striking until Merkel bailed 10 times their best clients/consumers, Greeks. But it seems Merkel is more willing
now to leave Greece alone find the way out of the depth of debt it has fallen.
Re:234: Grizzly, don't know if you are Greek but you have a pretty nice partial image of what was going on. Add the Germans on the top of the pyramid to make it more complete on how corruption moves around and why it is so endemic and nobody ever tried to take this cancer out of the body...
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Re.239: I am your supporter too don't worry
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I like you Nik, for some reason. I like you but I like me better. But, I do like you and support you.
That is me = loyal. :)
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Welcome back Alice,
Im confused, did you get a new cat named Muffin?
Or was it a joke, cause I think Muffin is ur next cat...I predict.
:) David
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Oh guess what, Alice?
I have to get false teeth on my lower mouth. So, I have to do some planning -- having my 10 lower teeth removed. So, I need to have my false teeth planned and done, before the day of the bottom removals.
And planned pain meds for the days back at work (so I'll seem normal) (hehehehe)
:) David
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Christos;
"I just got fascinated when I realized that macroeconomics used more or less our control systems theory."
Biological systems also work on negative feedback. That is what biostasis and homeostasis are about. The mechanisms relate to chemical thermodynamics.
The economic model of the United States economy is probably the most complex model developed to date. What Greenspan didn't understand that he didn't put into the equation or ignored is that the people who operate the market will sometimes make decisions not based on what the market will do that is best for their employer but what is best for themselves personally. Self regulated means unregulates so they don't get caught until the system breaks down. For example, in originating a loan, normally you'd check the credit worthiness of the borrower. But when you make a commission off of initiating loans, you not only allow the borrower to lie, you help him invent them. Then because the company not only doesn't check its employee's work, it doesn't care because it will sell that loan to someone else whose employees will be too lazy to check if the loan is really any good. They will rely on a credit reporting agency who is also staffed by employees too lazy to investigate and face no consequence if they turn out to be wrong. Then to compound matters drastically, insurance companies sell polices called credit default swaps which guarantee those loans will be paid back and therefore the premiums are low. When the loans inevitably defaulted companies like AIG who wrote those policies were faced with paying out hundreds of billions. That's where the government bail out started. Banks who bought those loans repackaged also got slaughtered if they didn't have them insured. They got bailed out too. This was not in the model naturally.
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Why didn' they bail out the people?
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Re 241: Nik, legum omnes servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. In Greece there is no rule of law, therefore Greeks are a bunch of slaves who got themselves in debt up to their necks so that they can drive the most Porsche Cayenne automobiles in Europe (in absolute numbers).
I really don't see your point in blaming the German government for taking care of businessmen and workers at the possible expense of the Greeks or other Southern Europeans. If the Greek government and people were less corrupt and more patriotic, they would have rationalised their public spending themselves after October's elections. Instead, the Greek PM has been playing internationally 'the beggar who does not beg' for 6 months now instead of staying at home and putting things in order. Greece is being dragged into an elementary rationalisation of its public sector; as soon as monetary help arrives from abroad, this effort will stop. So said Mr Westerwelle and he is 100% correct.
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@WebAliceinwonderland, post #237.
No problem. Unfortunately, my #213 was designed to answer a question Mickalus posed in #57 regarding the workings of the IMF. My #213 post had two HTML tables indicating the movement of SDRs during an IMF bailout, and the Family Guy/Simpsons/South Park references just gave context to the tables. Unfortunately, the BBC site didn't cope with the HTML tags (it looked fine in the preview!), the tables weren't displayed correctly, and so Mickalus's question in #57 remains unanswered. I'll have to post another explanation when time permits that doesn't use so much HTML. However, thank you for the compliment. Regards, viewcode.
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G_rizzly obviously I did not blame German authorities for working for their banks & industries' benefit and as a side effect benefiting German people on the expense of Greek people. I just stated the way things go. And I explained well that for the German average citizen it would be much more beneficial if the current situation continued (not for the bulk of Greeks, apart the Cayenne drivers as you correctly pinpointed), since it would be a valuable source of income. Ending Greece's lending marathon is simply the grand collection of money.
Now, do you pinpoint Greek corrupted politicians as the source of the problem or Greeks themselves? See occasionally there were politicians that either really cared for Greece's interests not yielding to foreign pressures either for any reasons, they said NO to foreigns. 2 cases of them were actually dictators since democratically elected representatives are anyway paid secrretly from abroad and thus rarely any of them (among the powerfull ones) would have as main interest the interests of the Greek people. Does that tell you something?
The one is Metaxas. A half-president (democratically elected but not a firm believer of representative democracy), half-dictator. While he was an admirer of the ancient example, he believed that modern representative democracy as it was sold to people is one of the most unfair regimes. In large countries leads to the prevailance of finance over politics and in small countries like Greece to the imposition of foreign marionettes serving in the most servile manner for the bits and parts thrown to them like dogs. For the latter case of small countries, he proposed the organisation of local ologarchies that have their main interests tightly knit with the local society and only loose links with international capital and these only for retrofitting the local benefit. Fascism? Hmmm, funnily he was the only one to oppose both Italian fascism and German Nazism (and both of them were dismayed at seeing an ideologically neighbour resisting them). But he also resisted the British calling them equally dangerous for the independence of Greeks. Result? He beat the Italians and Germans would not even attack since he wanted to remain neutral, but he died of "medical error" during negotiations imposed by the British on imposing their "aid" on little Greece ONLY after Greece was successful at kicking out Italians. Others might be able to explain to you what all that means. I simply say that Germans too lost terribly the first attack of 45,000 Germans & Bulgarians against 5,000 Greeks in the Metaxas' Mazinot-like fortresses and finally enterred and drove down to Athens in 2 days (i.e. as much as they needed to drive!) with 12,000 bike riders and drivers (i.e. the most stupid way to invade!), thus succeeding against 55,000 ANZAC & 30,000 Greek reserves led by British-servile Greek officers. That should tell you something, as to how people who say "NO" are treated.
Second man, is dictator Papadopoulos. What I would call a zero to wannabe-hero, a self-regretting traitor. A traditional old-school military man of no special intelligence that jumped as an arrivist out of the team of colonels (perhaps cos no-one else wanted to be in front!) to take the army leadership pushed by Americans so as to rise to power. Americans thought they had found their man, Papadopoulos thought he was backed by Americans to remain and protect the country from communism, thinking he was able also to govern. Somehow in the middle he found out that he was not able to govern and that Americans then were asking him "weird things", more or less to sell the country - and realised that to a huge extend that is what he aleady did in reality, but he had his own personal limits - what he was asked literally to do was to take out the whole Greek army from Cyprus and let the Turks in. He realised what he got himself and the country into thanks to his arrivist rising, and sought desperately a way to escape. He did this by calling in late 1972, early 1973 a line of quite neutral politicians (some of them particularly moral men, that hardly gained anything else apart their salary from politics) to negotiate his exit and return to the army giving the impression that he served his country just like so many military men were doing later in the 1980s (search not so far), but somehow right then "the people" (the people who?), remembered to react after 6 years of complete silence (so start asking yourself why!). The Polytechnic uprising, a fake rebelion where contrary to the myth, no student died inside it, apart the 15 people that were murdered in the streets on the head or heart by what seems to had been downwards falling bullets - 1 of the victims was murdered on top of his house roof, so the case of Greek police killing them is below zero...) and which was led and manned by all the Greek aristocracy that latter became the Greek version of gauche-caviar (Damanaki, Pangkalos, Laliotis, Tsohatzopoulos - ask a Greek to tell you about people like them...) and which only managed to cause a 2nd military "coup", rising on top Ioannidis, the perfect US dog, who imprisoned Papadopoulos and who went on to fully retire the military from Cyprus (keeping only a small guard armed with rifles and 1 charger of 20 each...) and 3 tanks with enough diesel to reach the center of Leukosia to pretend doing a military "coup" against Makarios, a traitor as-if priest, student of international church (thus not even an orthodox!!!!!!), who rose up in unclear conditions (Cypriots for years where asking "who is he?") and whom British managed finally to make popular when he was exiled for a month or two in Seychelles (please exile me there too!). In the mean time politicians like Karamanlis and Papandreou were negotiating with US their return to the country but only after accepting the loss of Cyprus, becoming them equal traitors with Ioannidis & Makarios to the extend that arrivist militarist Papadopoulos in front of them seems almost a hero.
So that is how things move g_rizzly.
Please point to us a way out. You may accuse the Greeks of voting Giorgakis Papandreou. But it is the Greeks up to early 2008 were considering him as the least suitable to govern as even some of his own voters cannot digest the fact that he is not even of Greek origins, he has a US passport and he openly (and naively) declared that he cares not about the interests of little Greece but he is working for a "global governance" (Eh?). How the Greeks voted for him? PASOK party is largely voted by
1) Sharks: the ones that "eat". However these support also ND, but have a definite preference to PASOK. 80% of the press is PASOK-friendly even when ND is on government - remember, 2004-2007 ND anyway-pathetic government passed more time trying to disassemble in vain the PASOK institution than doing any real work while of course sharing with them the benefits of German collaboration (see SIEMENS etc.).
2) Gauche-caviar and their underlings - the legacy of the civil war myths and the Polytechnic fake story, victims of persecutoin and dictatorship, quite a % of them with fat Swiss accounts, others working in press, on theater, in tv stations (so one wonder...), they are at least a 10% of Greeks...
3) Low-educated classes that have no touch with politics and who only vote to have a hope of getting a job, building a house - they cannot see more far than their own village, they consist - like all societies - a 30% shared equally among ND and PASOK with a clear advantage of PASOK (since it is the party with the best... offers!).
4) The vast part of muslim minority (they wouldn't care if he plans to sell-off Greece, why would they?), they are another 4%.
6) The 100% of all illegal immigrants turned citizens - an unknown %, however everyone knows their illegitimate & criminal "citizenshipisation" judged the outcome of the 2000 elections (PASOK would had otherwise lost). During these elections up to a 200,000 of votes (all given to PASOK) where illegal. Another 5% there. Right now to ensure he will not lose much in the following elections, he plans to give the citizenship to 200,000 (i.e. in reality 500,000) illegal immigrants) permanently rigging Greek elections in his favour - he will be able to be in government with a small Greek majority.
7) Finally a 4-5% of undecisive citizens who are shocked by murdering fires, murdering stray bullets, ecological disasters of natural gas and other such funny stories...
The above do not apply that ND or other party supporters are any better. They are to say that simply out there there are no political alternatives. What do you expect Greeks to vote? Tell them. Make a party of their own? With what money? And speak in what media? The 80%?
It does not take a lot to put the one you want in little countries which are of special interest thus closely monitored. A little manipulation and so money and the job is done.
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For all those of you above (Christos #157, #201, #228, MAII #166, #208, #246), who are discussing systems feedback and systems engineering applied to things like societies, there's quite a body of work on the subject. Rather than throw ten tons of academic paper at you, Adam Curtis (who also has a BBC blog - lawks, the BBC can be interesting sometimes) did documentaries on this, and links are below. I don't know if I agree with his conclusions but the soundtracks are always fun (John Carpenter?! Yay!).
Regards, viewcode
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_Box_(television_documentary_series)
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(television_documentary_series)
* http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/
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Re.247... Vasssiiiiliiss... Vaaaaaaaasssiiiilllis. Why didn't they bail out the people. Why. Because the people are the last hole of the clarinet. Federal banks give to banks which give to banks which give to people. Which give back to banks, which give back to federal banks but what? Less or more? Where is the interest? Ha! It is of no interest for banks on the upper echelons to take back paper-based money... it is of no value to them, it is them creating the value! These circles need real value: thus property. It is the property they want from people.
Thus what happens is that they put lower middle and even lower class people buy with promises of lower rates loans property from upper-middle class people and then at the end of the cycle take the peoples' properties. Of course it is the middle-banks that take the properties but then they are stipped of their cash so they need to sell them, so prices fall so upper-echelon finance institutions ("investors"), can buy them at cheaper prices, with money anyway printed for free... what else!
What happened in US in 2008 was a direct attack on the US citizens.
And again I return you to the saying of DemocracyThreat about "a feudal-like oligarchy". It is the land-based riches that they are after, the money reserves mean little as they are ficticious.
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@g_rizzly
It seems to me that Germany is in a collision course with rest of EU not Greece. I don't know Mr Westerwelle but Germans friends of mine on mentioning his name laugh and use rather abusive language which I cannot transfer here. I have no personal opinion though.
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Re: 250. Nik, corruption in Greece is vertical and ubiquitous. Everyone may be giving or taking bribes depending on the situation. A businessman may be bribing a tax collector who has found about his tax evasion, another may be bribing a planning officer in order to build outside city limits or contrary to legislation, a third may be bribing a clerk who refuses to issue a business licence although the legal requirements are clearly met. I still remember how international press was taken in with the reports about 'those incompetent Greeks being unable to complete the Olympic venues in time', when in fact it was a bold, organised blackmail of the Olympic contractors against the Greek Prime Minister so that they could get paid double and triple fees than those agreed.
At this stage, the Greek government (and entire political elite) is playing a game of hard poker speculating on the result of intra-european political and economic differences. Instead of immediately starting to clean up the mess of the Greek fiscal policies, the Greek PM has been doing a lot of noise and has finally managed to put Germany against the Commission and several member-states. With a little bit of luck, Greece's debt will be re-financed by its European partners and, more or less, business will be as usual again for the Greek political elite.
I am sure that Germany knows pretty well that any monetary aid towards Greece will end up in the pot of the Danaids - as always.
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"It seems to me that Germany is in a collision course with rest of EU not Greece. I don't know Mr Westerwelle but Germans friends of mine on mentioning his name laugh and use rather abusive language which I cannot transfer here. I have no personal opinion though."
On a collision course? How so and in what way? I must have missed something. France would like Germany to consume more. That was the only criticism levelled at Germany by a successful economy in Europe that I heard of. You cannot make people consume more if they do not have the money to do that. And you cannot reasolnably expect Germans to plunge themselves in years upon years of private debt only to create an artifical boom for countries in Europe that have been wasting all their money and all the money given to them.
On Guido Westerwelle - hurling insults at people you disagree with signals you have lost the argument. That's always been true, and it is no different this time.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To Huaimek (220):
To be truthful, I do like and admire Americans, Japanese, Germans and French and at least little bit English and Swedish as they are all successful nations that get things done. They are nations and cultures that we should study and learn, and copy actively their best bits and methods to our culture. Of course other nations and cultures are of course as important and have as much to contribute as the ones mentioned before, but I personally find these nations and culture to be the most interesting.
However in these forums by not sticking to the absolute truth makes things more interesting. For example saying that we should all be like Germans tends to irk some people quite somewhat, then saying that "They also have shown to be hard working and dedicated to what ever task they set upon on themselves" will irk them quite some more. For example in this time WebAlice took the bait directly.
In case of the WWII, I have to note that I have made a promise to myself to leave the subject off in these forums. While the subject is interesting it usually only leads into religious like fight to the death that doesn't in any way touch the current matter at all, which is the EU and the Europe. However, I can make brief comment now and then, and hopefully not ignite another war between different commentators.
In case of Finland, WW2 is a special case, because while we were in the Axis side, we were part of the good guys actually. We were a liberal parliamentary democracy, our parliament even continued to meet without interruption for the whole war time. We were a country that treated equally all our citizens, which caused some oddities like having Finnish Jews fighting together with Wehrmacht against Soviets, even earning them Iron Crosses for they bravery. Our soldiers where fighting for freedom and liberty against slavery and oppression. This makes the Finnish view point quite different, and add to that the fact our country wasn't occupied in any time of the war, after the war, from European countries that took part to it, only London, Moscow and Helsinki were the only capitals that hadn't been occupied. All this I would say makes Finns not feel any quilt or shame about the war, but actually make them feel pride and joy that our forefathers did make right decisions and successfully defended our freedom and liberty.
Then there are of course little things that are either worth or interesting to note. During Winter War and Continuation War our leadership was quite religious, they mostly saw the war as fight between the forces of good and evil and we as nation were put under test by the god himself. This may have lead to some interesting decisions, for example all public dances were forbidden during the war, it was deemed immoral to have joy when people were fighting to defend the country. Also a notable exemption was that in here government actually successfully not only evacuated civilians, but also all government and church records. There was no abuse of civilians by the Red Army because all civilians had been evacuated. Then again, that is something that a democratic state does, takes care of its citizens.
All in all, this is quite much about the subject for now, but it should give you some perspective to not only for the war but that there are different perspectives to it.
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From what I noticed, St. Petersburg wasn't occupied either. Was simply starved to death, by the ring placed on its perimeter. Elegant solution, minus 1 million people, a single compact efficient Piskarevskoye cemetery.
A ring has many "sides", one of which was Finland, whose Government democratically took care of its population, as described above, as a responsible government should, together with mighty Germany, and exceedingly well. As Jukka reminds us a lesson for others to follow.
Overall, the importance of being egoistic, always pays off. If you manage it cleverly, even 2ndWW can be remembered with nostalgie.
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I am really amazed with what Jukka says but I guess every nation has its own way to justify things more or less. Their own points of view. National pride is important and a nation should not be subjected to humiliation by the particular circumstances it found itself.
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Personally, I admire more the nations in suffering, Palestinians, Kurds, Nepal, many African nations... We are living in our little paradises, we have almost everything and appreciate nothing!
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viewcode,
self-critically, I don't think "HTML tables indicating the movement of SDRs" :o))))))) will help me much :o)))) , but then, how they say, live and learn, and who knows, looking forward. A piece of creative writing, words, though, I am always able to appreciate :o).
By the way to all those who want to choke Nik :o))))) but can't find heart to do it :o))))) - remember this is also very creative writing, to top its geopolitical wealth value, and myriad of local detail from the internal perspective you won't find anywhere else.
I am absolutely stunned by all these wars scenarious "if they attack from this side, we will position our battery that side, and when they are allured into Thrace, we will go up to the mountains", one thing it shows is the place is real concerned with Turkey even if it seems to outsiders they shouldn't be, Greek worry and scare is genuine. The only thing one wants to say "we won't leave you fighting alone, don't be so scared, it'll be alright".
I am less inspired with your posts Nik how all earn money on you, I mean I am sure all do, but it's likewise Greek fault you allowed for it as well as the "fault" of outsiders - they won't wink an eye, useless to cry to the skies about "morality of business". Just let the goat graze into your kitchen garden and all. In this absolutely all countries are in the same shoes, matter of scare-crows' management, positioning :o))) and all.
Anyway our Izvestia write today the EU decided to compost Greece a little bit for a while before coming to aid, to marinade, so to say, waiting for it to become softer and more agreeable and openly ask for help direct, in a more timid and self-defects understanding manner. When the realisation of deficiencies how to say, sinks through.
Just a view, I am not sure they are all such Greece specialists.
So Nik cheer up, they didn't desert you, just want to compost a bit. :o)
Though Izvestia puts a ? say warning on delimitations below, also writes that Greeks are proud people, can kick out a trick, leave the EU altogether, if pushed too overtly. But notes it is still a very unlikely scenario.
Nik, :o) just a teaser:
"Drove a Greek across a creek,
Sees a Greek in creek a crab
Put the Greek his hand into the creek
Crab at hand the Greek aaah - Grab!"
:o))))
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David, I very much sympathise with your planned teeth acquisition, health problems ah wow don't tell me, I am myself at very low end of the spectrum, cat blast-out must be consumed all last resources. Saw 3 doctors today and plan to see 2 tomorrow. If Russian state medical service wouldn't be such a useless goner that at hospital you get less medical help than you can attain rambling in the freedom (doing tests and seeing specialists in the paid clinics at own master-minding what to do), I'd have called myself an ambulance 2 days ago and be packed away to a hospital bed. Then, as always, the question who will then walk the dog.
The Muffin, yes, a joke, no Muffins in the observable future, the potential owner can't take care of anyone. If will survive will go ? stroke? caress? Muffins of others. In the dacha neighbours rich choice, they picked up 11 (eleven) post past dacha season, when all monsters abandon pets behind in the dacha village, closing the season. And the poor left-overs migrate to the few houses inhabited throughout the winter. Neighbours say it is simply a plague because impossible to refuse entry. Thus they gathered ELEVEN. Last time I've been there - positioned in nice combinations one on the tape-recorder on the kitchen-table, one on a sink, two on the window sill, one by the plates on the floor by the stove, 304 entering-exiting kitchen to enquire about the guest and what is happening, visitor's head goes dizzy just looking at the cat traffic! :o))))) So, no lack of "muffins" there. :o)
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Nik, with your aggrandisment big schemes summarising how Britain and USA always plotted to harm Russia, or, rather, that it's 2 big world interests geopolitical game going on, surely I can't agree more :o))))), total pleasure to read how those two nasties always schemed against Russia in the most lowly way :o))))) Honestly, all along wanted to save you the trouble of writing, by telling that it's been long summarised on this side, all tht you described each and every Russian tsar commented with a famous here set expression - "Anglichanka (the English woman) eh, let's say, tarrs all." With every worsening of int'l affairs climate for Russia, our rulers invariably thought it the first thing, the first reaction - to check up in case Britain is behind it again.
Wanted to tell you to save trouble :o)))) the concise expression, but, as I explained :o))))) simply pleasant to read :o)))))
Anyway you should know we mentally wrote off all past British tricks up to the war, so it is pretty useless to remember, just, historical perspective interest, because there are heaps of nice countries about, - but they are strangely missing when comes the Big Trouble. Entirely vanish. All is relative. In relative terms advantages of Britain suddenly shine up, against the background. May be you can't be nice and fight simultaneously.
For whatever own reasons Britain was there when it counts and it counts, and this is the only thing that counts. Doesn't matter why, you don't look gifted horse into the mouth. Simply be happy of your luck.
Remember we never get tired to mark the victory day, thus Britain goes along and along.
And that the USA "schemed" before the war - they didn't, or if they did - we are not aware of it, nothing to forget entirely, even if they were communists un-friendly we didn't feel it, so it is their own business.
And USA also goes along and along, every 9th of May.
Which reminds me :o)))) there is an awful dillemma, teasing Russian brains currently :o))) (nothing else to worry about, you know :o)))), lotss of surveys and voting on the net. The question of all times is (don't laugh :o) - on the 9th of May this spring, 65th victory day anniversary - CAN British and US and French troops parade in the Red Square. For they were invited, then, as it usually happens, all began thinking. (army first). They are Allies. Surely yes great and wonderful.
But they happen to be NATO (all of them :o))))) without exception :)))) nothing, that an eye can rest on :o)))))) no consolation whatsoever :o)))))
Never a foreign soldier in uniform, I mean, it's not war-time, on the Russian ground. We don't have any foreign soldiers on Russian ground. Well, on holidays :))), as tourists :))))) or spies :o)))))
And it is not simply "Russian ground", it's Red Square. How to live with that is unclear :o))))) Many are cataleptical. Doom and gloom end of the world 2012 - all symptoms :o)))) An enemy military block parading on the Red Square. What's next? That is the end.
Others console others that given two mummies Lenin and Stalin already tar the Red Square no NATO can spoil it further :o))))), plus-minus 3 NATO countries in the Red Square is pea-nuts, compared to it :o)))), and, like, folks relax. Red Square saw worse times, and still Lening hanging out there, though Stalin is less of a mummy, just ashes in a cup tucked away into the Kremlin wall.
This is all funny for outsiders, I just want to note how important is the 2ndWW subject here still, if such pea-nut questions attract attention automatically. I am sure Russian hospitality and internationalism prevails, and anyway that's all internal self-teasing, usual Russiam masochism, invitations have been sent and there can't be any stepping back.
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At least Russia is not China ...that (nation/civilization has a sense of humor but not about itself) ooops!... not meaning to insult 1.3 mill humans :)
No offense meant:O))))))
Alice, Look at any Economist debate (posts) involving China to see my meaning.
I love Russia...(IM) turning into a Russophile, cuz of you, Alice.
:)
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To WebAliceinwonderland (258):
That is what you get for being communists.
To vassilis (259):
It isn't hard to justify position that I mentioned. USSR was an ruthless empire set for world domination, an evil empire, enemy of the civilized world. This view was shared by other nations too, for example the USA never declared war against Finland as it saw the fight justified for the defence of freedom and liberty.
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Jukka_R
Re #257
Believe me; I do understand Finland's position & policies in WW2: Caught between a historically massive rock & geographically extremely hard place the Finns were left with almost no manoeuvres of their own.
That said, I think using the term & claiming 'liberal democracy' for a Nation wholly allied to Nazi Germany-Fascism in WW2 is being a tad over-generous.
A Nation cannot ally itself with another Nation that is systematically attempting genocide of an entire 'Religious' group across Europe and be 'liberal' in its political-philosophy.
A Nation cannot ally itself with another Nation that is systematically enslaving millions upon millions in the most brutal & deadly conditions to serve its 'war machine' and be 'liberal' in its political-outlook toward others.
A Nation cannot ally itself with another Nation that is actively invading & conquering a dozen 'neighbouring Nations' across the whole of Continental Europe and be 'liberal' in its political-intentions.
A Nation whose Parliament sat for the entire WW2 and made no protest about the above policies of the Nazis cannot lay claim to supporting 'liberal' perspectives on the future of vanquished & prostrate Europe.
By the way: Not all Finnish Jews fared or fought as well as You imply; some were incarcerated in Finnish detention centres - - it is also, as I am sure You know, a trifle disingenuous to suggest Jewish Finns fought directly alongside the Wehrmacht in the 'Continuation War' - - Jews in the Finnish Armed Forces were very few & all that fought did so in strictly Finnish areas of the Finno-Russian frontline.
A Nation cannot ally itself with another Nation that has illegally conquered and committed so many crimes against humanity in all the above and lay serious claim to 'liberality' when it is clear in order for Finland's policy of alignment with Fascism to be effective it would have best suited Finland for Nazi Germany to have been the Victor!
Feel free to ignore all this as I also 'understand' Your reluctance to enter the tit-for-tat round of 'war' arguments: Besides, we cannot alter what has been and done (much as I would like G.B. to have over in Iraq - - so, yes, pointing the accusatory finger is to some extent a philosophical cul de sac).
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Given the choice between Stalin and Hitler, one could only favour one terrible choice over the other. Some countries allied themselves with Germany, others with Russia. Both were and are guilty of unspeakable crimes, genocide, aggression, mass deportation. You cannot really blame Finland for having made the choice it made, especially seeing as it had suffered under Russian subjugation for such a long time.
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Chris Camp
#267
Of course we can 'blame'!
That is not the point.
Finland made a choice and most Finns would argue as J_R does that it was the right one: Nevertheless, the harsh truth is Finland circa 1939-44 made a pact with the greatest threat to 'democracy' and 'civilised' society of that age.
The only way for Finland to have benefitted from the alliance was for it to have emerged still in control of Karelia etc. I.e. a Nazi Germany victory - - meanwhile the 'rest' of enslaved Europe... and the probable outcome for the USSR Populations?
To attempt to paint that pact as if it were a part of logical 'liberal democratic' tradition is untenable.
I do not claim to have any answer for Finland's dilemma in that era: I just do not agree with trying to dress up its political deals of the period as the lesser of 2, 3, 4 evils...
An exceedingly brief history:
Post Russian Revolution & Finnish Civil War of independence Finland was a 'Democratic' Nation with full enfranchisement of adult population & 4 distinct populations - Finn speakers, Swedish speakers, Sami (Lapp) and the Roma (gipsy) - - not all were quite so freely & equally able to access that democracy in this new Nation (confirmed by the League of Nations & Kremlin Commissar for Nationalities, Josef Stalin).
On the other hand Finland was a divided Nation: Its people the 'victors' & 'vanquished' of a brutal Civil War - - its land in the 1920s carved up among the 'whites' (for want of a better term) & often stolen/confiscated/acquired from defeated/defenceless 'reds'.
'Liberal' & 'democratic' are not terms best applied to the manner of the redistribution of land in post 1917-20 Finland. The 'political-social' scars of this period lasted throughout the inter-European War period in Finland as they did everywhere else. It goes some way to explain successive Finnish Governments persuit of closer ties with Weimar & then Nazi Germany as opposed to the 'red menace' over the immediate border.
It took the 'Winter War' & 'Continuation War' to bring about a reconciliation of the Finnish people: Even so, the bulk of post-war Finnish social/political society again gradually divided between those favouring full rapprochement (though not integration) with the seemingly here-to-stay Soviet Union communism, and those who followed the Kekkonen-line of 'rigorous neutrality', and a smaller 3rd group that wanted to press for a 'pro-west' approach to foreign relations.
All Finns agreed on making every effort to ensure Finland paid-off its 'compensation' to Russia as rapidly as possible and Finland did this before any other in Europe. Though as part of the peace deal Red Army forces entrained to Hanko etc. right into the mid-'50s.
Longterm President Kekkonen's 'Kremlin-leaning neutrality' policies are now disparaged by quite a few modern Finns & some of its Historians: It is all part of the worldwide trend to rewrite past events from a modern perspective & gifted hindsight that pays only limited regard