Greeks walk out over cuts
Ships, planes and trains won't be running in Greece today. Schools will be shut down. Government offices and court rooms will fall silent. Hospitals won't be able to offer their normal services. This is the first major strike since the Papandreou government took over at the end of last year. The big unions are backing it.
Polls suggest that a majority of Greeks understand that the deficit has to be cut and most seem to support the government's austerity plan.
So attention will fall on the degree of support for today's strike. The union leaders understand they cannot completely ignore the reality of Greece's finances. "The Greek people are well aware that the fiscal situation of the country is in terrible shape," said Yiannis Panagopoulos. His argument is for fairness. "We demand a fair distribution of the burden, so that wage-earners and pensioners do not pay the price for a crisis they did not create."
The Greek government is trying to be even-handed. Some taxes on upper earners are set to rise and they are targeting tax evaders. But reducing the deficit by 4% this year will require some sacrifices by ordinary Greeks. That point is not accepted by many of those who take to the streets. They want their old world to continue. And it can't.
It is widely believed in Greece that international bankers caused the recession. There is enough truth in it to make the charge stick. Financial products were chopped and sliced and repackaged and resold based on selling mortgages to those who could not repay them. But it was an era of easy money that most Western governments and consumers gorged themselves on. It is a difficult political message, but bankers alone did not cause the current crisis. So far the Papandreou government has not confronted this and accepted that it is not the bankers alone who are responsible. Indeed, they have preferred to blame speculators.
Others too are being accused. The Greek government spokesman has pointed his finger at Brussels. If there had been better surveillance from Brussels the "warning signals" might have been spotted far sooner, he said. Regardless of the truth of this it again shifts responsibility away from Greece. Brussels immediately rejected the blame being placed on its shoulders.
The EU is increasingly unpopular in Greece. It partly reflects the need to point to blame outsiders. It also reflects the dangers for the EU in putting pressure on Athens to reduce its deficit further. The people do not like the interference. "We have lost part of our sovereignty," said the Prime Minister, George Papandreou. It may be why eventually an IMF bail-out is preferred. The EU as enforcer carries risk for those who run the union.
The difficulty the Greek government finds in making the case to the unions is reflected elsewhere in Europe. There are strikes in Spain and walk-outs are planned in Portugal. Sooner or later the high-spending public sectors will have to be pruned. It will mark a paradigm shift. No senior politician is yet fessing up to what lies ahead. They hope that a return to growth will mask the challenge to government spending that the recession has laid down.
Even as the strikers march in Athens, representatives of the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the IMF are in town analysing the austerity programme and whether it carries conviction. The EU has set a deadline of 16 March for the first assessment to be made. The crisis, however, does not wait for officials. Yesterday the credit ratings of Greece's four largest banks were downgraded. Their status is only a couple of levels above "junk". So the cost of borrowing drifts higher.
In Germany the economic confidence index edges downwards. Apparently the budget crisis in the eurozone is "unsettling consumers as they fear negative effects on Germany's economic development".
The strikers are marching for fairness, to protect their standards of living, but this is a crisis with much deeper roots and the politicians shy away from confronting it.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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I wonder it these strikes will be the death knell of union power, the way they were in Britain years ago.
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The UK economy is heading the same way as the Greek economy.
It now cost the UK Government 100 basis points more to borrow money on 10 year loans on the international markets than it does Germany and the German economy has been stagnant for the past 6 months.
The fact that the Greeks do not like the austerity package being imposed upon them is very understandable but it is the only way to go otherwise the Greek will find that things will get very much worse with a total collapse of their economy and sufficient momentum in disrupted public tranquility that revolution could ensue - not that this is something unthinkable for the Greeks.
If the UK government does not get a grip on the UK national debt soon the Greek Tragedy could simply be the forerunner for what happens in the UK.
The lesson to be learned is that money does not grow on trees and humungous public sector expenditure funded by public purse and supported by massive debt cannot be the model for the future. The good times of living in luxury funded by borrowed means have got to come to an end and austerity reign supreme or else we will all suffer.
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The Greeks like all Europeans have a sense of entitlement in which they expect that government will do for them anything and everything they can't, won't, or just don't feel like doing for themselves. In a country whose bloated inefficient bureaucratic government is thoroughly corrupt, where civil servants do little or nothing to earn their pay, the citizens feel they have a right not to pay taxes to subsidize them. Was this how ancient Greeks conceived of democracy?
Many EU countries suffer this same mentality to one degree or another. They've gotten away with it for this long for a number of reasons including massive deficit financing and highly advantageous one sided trade and investment arrangements with the US (and to a lesser degree with the USSR in Eastern Europe) to help them recover after WWII, the last vestiges of which are just now dying out. The recent financial crisis which originated in the US only accelerated the inevitable day of reckoning.
Europe's chickens are now coming home to roost, its fantastic bubble of unreality it had come to count on is bursting before the world's eyes. The EU and Euro, a preposterous construct the result of megalomaniacal egos who want to return to what they imagine was a glorious past much as Iran's most radical Caliphatists do have unified and magnified the risk and ultimate consequences manyfold. Greece is just the first of the outer band of a perfect storm which has been headed towards Europe and will hit with full force over the coming years. The devastation and havoc it will leave in its wake as the world shifts to a new reality will change the landscape entirely. Europe will become third world.
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I find the title of this post a bit too simplistic and unable to reflect the actual feelings of the Greek people with the current situation who are anyway totally demoralised from the negative comments of all international press. First of all it is not a case of blaming the EU and just the international banks for the crisis in Greece. A lot of people agree that it is previous governments and our society that caused the current situation. But the EU was supposed to be there to monitor and assist countries. Why didn't their monitoring find early on what previous governments did with the statistical data? Why did they wait until the last minute when the country is near to bankruptcy to start acting? It is also very hypocritical to see a lot of comments that talk about work ethic and the debt situation in Greece when in the US, UK, Italy, Spain, Germany, France the public debts are enormous and in the trillions. As for strikes try to live with an average salary of 12,000 euros a year before tax, when an average house costs 120,000, petrol costs 1.25 euros a litre, food has become the most expensive in the EU and also you don't have the prospect of a better situation for the next 5-10 years.
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I am no economist and so will be happy to be corrected but we can’t even stretch a single currency across the UK where we continue to see economic migration from north to south. The U.S has a similar problem where perhaps California should now have its own currency.
How one currency could possible stretch across Europe with its diverse economies without either massive migration and/or massive movements of funds is beyond my comprehension.
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Dimitris;
"A lot of people agree that it is previous governments and our society that caused the current situation."
First, don't blame your problems on other people. You nation is not a child whose behavior has to be watched and punished when it violates the rules it agreed to. Its problems are entirely home grown. The larger problem for all of Europe is that it is made up of nations whose core substance is not substantially different from Greece's even if the details are very different in each situation. Greece is not a cause of the EU's failure, it is a symptom. Until the root causes are confronted directly and dealt with effectively it will never be fixed. That is unlikely because those causes go to the heart of what Europe is about and would lead to the conclusion that it is based on unresolvable contradictions. But even if it could and did, anything it could still do at this point would likely be too little too late.
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If we are to suffer even lower salaries (salaries in Greece are much lower than elsewhere in Europe for the vast majority of people combined with lower quality and quantity of public services) and poverty what's the point of having around us bankers getting high bonuses, businessmen leaving in luxury and neoliberal foreign politicians being unfair to the people of another country? Let's revolt and change the system of capitalism to a system that makes us all equal(ly) poor (such as socialism). We have nothing to lose, better poor under socialism than poor under capitalism. I wish the strike is successful and the opposition to neoconservatism culminates with a general revolution against the whole system of capitalism as we know it all around Europe. Greece will show the way. Unfair markets and the elit that supports them are the enemies. Do not underestimate the power of the people. (I am not remotely left-wing, but current situation has changed my views on casino type of capitalism).
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You are right to focus on this general strike in Greece Gavin. It will surely harm Greece rather than help her at a time she needs all the help she can get. I am also interested in the comment by Dimitris#4 about Europe, the truth is that Europe has been unable to get its own accounts signed off for many years!
I enjoyed the analysis shown today about aid plans from the Euro zone by notayesmanseconomics web blog and his example of a study on Greece's underlying position. Neither makes good reading for those of us with Greece's best wishes at heart.
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Greece has not asked for financial injection, it has asked for fair lending rates that are of some respect to a country that holds the key to many things in the past and in the future to come.
As for the Germans making comments and criticizing Greece, I would suggest it looks at its own problems as we all know the real reason all this has occurred in the Eu is because The Germans underestimated the markets and thought it could have found itself ahead of the rest and that back fired.
I also would refer back to history and the NAZI reign and atrocities they committed in Greece and the stolen wealth they still posses from Greece, such as gold from the Greek banks.
Don not underestimate the mother of Greece and her vast history and powefull tolerance against intoreable acts towards its natural beauty and attemts to wane it.
You will never win or destroy such a naturally produced and gifted spirit that can only be found with in such a beast.
So to all the other countires in the EU that are hiding and taking cover.
Take a lesson from Greece and put your hands up be accountable and except what has happened and do somthing about it.
Again it is the home of civilization that needs to re create, introduce and inspire the world in a new more prosperous direction.
It is history repeating its self over and over again:)
Long live the greatness of Greece and the love for its neighbors and the rest of the world that surrounds it.
Good luck to the new Government and well done to the prime minister for getting up and speaking to the world in a dialogue understood by all.( this is is not bias comment towards any political party , far from it)
Thank you.
GT
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vassilis wrote:
"better poor under socialism than poor under capitalism"
You have no idea what you are talking about. You did not live there. You can take it from me you don't want it. Greece may well take an example from countries like Lithuania and Estonia who are in a similar need to cut public spending and just do what is necessary without blaming everyone else around.
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Greece has not been in consistence with the stability demands for some time. It is of course an interesting political question, if EU should have demanded already some years ago that Greece should correct its economic policy instead of the measures now. EU would have been unpopular in any case.
Politicians are not in the league of the brave so EU didn't make this claims, and then the crisis came, which in fact has been caused by the finance sector. As the article says, it is a mixture, however people would often prefer no to realise.
To let IMF dictate the cuts to Greek government will once again be the less unpleasant solution for the politicians and might save EU some criticism in Greece. However, it will at the same time be a major political loss of prestige and therefore something that will be considered more than once.
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vassilis #7 wrote
'better poor under socialism than poor under capitalism.'
Except for the fact the poor under capitalism means you can only afford one foreign holiday a year whereas poor under socialism means you starve.
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Most people cannot afford a holiday even now with their current salary. We will certainly starve anyway with the new measures and on top we will have super rich and bankers with bonuses (nobody touches them). We have nothing to lose anymore, I assure you.
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Good blog Gavin; a timely attempt to show that Greece's crisis is more complicated than it is often portrayed.
But I do think the crisis is largely of Greece's own making. Debts do not appear out of nowhere, they are accrued over years. And Greece's fiddling with the books absolves any finger-pointing at the EU, whose scrutiny can only be effective on the basis of honest financial management on the behalf of member countries. And how can the Greek PM complain that Greece has lost sovereignty at the same time as blaming the EU for not having guided Greece's hand in its internal financial matters? Clearly he wants a scapegoat, but he should try to be consistent to be believable.
I can understand Greeks thinking that it is unfair on ordinary people to have to take wage cuts and pay higher taxes. But Greece has long had a bloated public sector, and tax evasion is a national sport - these two problems should have been addressed years ago as it has always been obvious that the status quo was not sustainable. And how fair is it to ask the German taxpayer, for example, to pay for Greece's mismanagement?
Is it fair? I didn't cause the global economic crisis, so why should I have to suffer for it? But that's the capitalist system that we have. The only way (that I know of) to ensure a consistent and safe financial existence for workers is a planned economy. But in recent elections in Europe, voters tended to verge more to the right than the left, so clearly this "revolution" is not going to happen.
So life isn't fair. I wonder if the unions, in Greece and elsewhere, are going to damage their credibility by accepting that the situation is unfair but by not accepting that everyone is going to have to pay for it. I sympathise with the workers, but these strikes show up the unions to be selfish and unrealistic.
I wish Greece well.
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Our socialism will be better. It will be south european socialism. We are fed up with capitalism. We do not want it anymore.
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Let's think about the problem. There are countries unable to be so economically productive. Then comes such a "master plan" to "stabilize the situation". People get optimized, some get rich because they are optimizers. IMF "helps" and rules this catting-madness. Youth escapes from country unwilling to pay high taxes and to be poor at the end with no pension.
Let's be honest. All the EU is in trouble, not only LV, Greece, Spain, others. Soon I and many like me will welcome people of China and India, not EU. Because it's not perspective to compete with Germany and this crysis resulted as problems of particular "PIGS & like" countries.
If the EU management is wise then, people, think about global reasons, not "families spent too much on food". And IMF looks like inquisition with bailout feature to elite (just to cover their mortgages), by the way.
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vassilis #15 wrote
'Our socialism will be better. It will be south european socialism. We are fed up with capitalism. We do not want it anymore'
Yes, I'm sure your version will be so much better than the 1,001 other versions which have tried.
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'But that's the capitalist system that we have. The only way (that I know of) to ensure a consistent and safe financial existence for workers is a planned economy.'
Exactly planned economy, this is what we need, the capitalist system with the casino tactics and the 'volatile' markets are the underlying cause for the misery of the people (I do not refute the corruption, the fiddling with the books etc. but what people have to do with this? Simple people have gotten a bad deal under capitalism, at least greek style, do not forget last government was right-wing). Greece has a powerful left and a probably the only communist party in Europe (gets easily ~10% which is impressive for stalinist party). It is fertile ground for a new revolution for a new system. Let's see what will happen in the next elections (if we do not have a revolution in the meantime, last December we were close and there was no economic meltdown) if neoliberal measures take place, salaries shrink to ridiculous levels, unemployment becomes massive. Let's wait and see.
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The nature of the problem now facing the Greeks of having to face up to the reality of austerity driven by a reduction in Government spending accompanied by increasing inflation within Greece as domestic consumer prices rise is something that many other Western Nations are going to have to contend with. Greece just happens to be the first to have to face the music.
The blame game is just people kicking the cat because austerity hurts.
In the rest of Europe other countries are going to have the same problem as the Greeks as every country has borrowed too much money to fight the recession and save the Banks and save Jobs and maintain Public Services expenditure.
The problem is that the debt rows and national interest rate alone will grow to a point where they may be unrepayable. If there is a risk that this might happen then the International Money markets will increase the cost of future loans. That has happened as of this week with the UK as the cost of further UK government loans will cost more today than they did last week.
The bottom line is that it is the liberal-social public expenditure that has developed and grown in cost since 1945 in all of Western Europe that is the root cause of the predicament that all Western European Nations now face. The Greeks may have to see a reduction in Greek public expenditure but then so will all Western European nations - the only difference for some it will be sooner rather than later.
If these nations do not adopt austerity soon then the national debts may get so great that the debt and required austerity will pass on to future generations to suffer and those future generations will not thank their forefathers for that legacy!
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Hi MA2,
Please keep entertaining us about your make-believe analysis.
http://www.thebigmoney.com/features/todays-business-press/2010/02/24/don-t-count-loan-year-banks-continue-struggle
Yesterday, FDIC head Sheila Bair spoke on the state of the beleaguered banking industry. If you applied for a loan last year, this part won’t surprise you: The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022302120.html) reports banks cut lending 7.5 percent in 2009, to the tune of $587 billion. Bair blamed most of the decrease on big banks, who’ve tightened loan qualifications and want to preserve as big a cash cushion as possible against unexpected losses. The drop is politically problematic, with bailed-out institutions refusing to lend money. But the Post points out it’s also economically worrisome, as businesses need lending to grow in order to expand and sustain any recovery. Bair expects industry weakness to keep loans low in 2010: "We're still bumping along the bottom of the credit cycle," she said. The FDIC is also braced for more bank failures, the New York Times reports. Bair announced it has placed 702 banks on its “problem” list of institutions teetering on the brink. The closures are straining the agency’s deposit insurance funds, but Bair tried to be reassuring: “We think that we have the cash we need.” She doesn’t expect to tap the FDIC’s emergency line of credit at the Treasury but wouldn’t rule it out.
Best regards,
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Socialism. The day it happens, me and many others from that rare breed, the greek taxpayer, will be out of here for good.
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Marcus quoted earlier "The Greeks like all Europeans have a sense of entitlement". To be truthful we Americans do to. I can't compare the passion of the two as I have never lived in Europe but I can say that these "entitlement programs" as we call them will be the undoing of the US. Our big three are Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The very name is part of the problem. People think they are entitled to receive the benefits.
We could slash our military budget, eliminate all the pork in spending, stream line government programs to the max but if we don't get a handle on the entitlement programs we are going bust. That's why Americans want to know how we are going to fund another entitlement call "Universal Health Care". It is all done with the best of intentions but if you can't pay for it then it's got to be re-thunk. I think all of the developed world with have to make the hard choices the Greeks have to make. (Norway seems to have their shit in oreder). The question is who has the guts to get er done. I'm betting on the US but right now we seem to be running around without a head. Of course that creates a headicap.
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"How one currency could possible stretch across Europe with its diverse economies ..." (KennethM, 5)
You may not be an economist (neither am I), but I think you've identified the problem perfectly well.
But what mustn't be forgotten is that the euro is not primarily an economics project - it's a political one. It's a major step towards the political objective of a United States of Europe. To those that have that objective, any economics problems caused or exacerbated by the euro are a price worth paying.
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Those who are striking in Greece need to realise that it doesn't matter how the debts were created, what matters in the immediate future is how they are to be erradicated. Unfortunately that means cuts.
Having only just reached adulthood and starting my first real job late in 2008, I have as much reason to complain about my situation as most of the Greek workers. I did not enjoy the "boom years" as I was still in education, and now that I have a job I cannot afford a car, never mind the price of petrol! In addition, the average cost of housing here is ten times my salary so I am unable to live without having to share with strangers.
However, what is most important to me right now is that I can take pride in my work ethic. I am lucky to have a job when many of my friends are unable to find one, and while I am overworked and not being paid well I can use to time to gain experience.
Just now workers in Greece, and across the world, may well feel aggrieved about their situation and who did what and when to cause the problems, but let the recriminations wait until we have properly begun a slow, steady and sustainable recovery. Striking will not make things better.
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"There are lies, damned lies and Greek statistics". Retirement at age 48 though they are trying to raise it to 63 which is still a lot less than in Northern Europe. Few of the middle class pay the real rates of tax as tax evasion is the national sport. Add to that an overblown and corrupt bureaucracy and there you have "modern Greece". High time they took some serious medicine. In common with the remaining PIGS. I see no reason whatsoever for providing them with financial support unless they change their profligate ways.
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The banks did cause the crisis. The governments were aware that the scheme was unworkable and had dire consequences for everyone but did nothing to prevent it from happening. This was gross neglect on the part of the governments, in the sense that they did not protect their citizens even when made aware that the insturments being used by the banks were empty boxes. The banking lobby made sure no changes were made through their influence buying. The dishonesty of all governments in this matter is the major problem. They all fail to accept responsbility for the influence excerted by the banks and their own unwillingness to protect their own citizens. This has been a fundemental failure of governments and the reality that governments function on behalf of big business and bankers and that the citizens are not of any concern other than to underwrite unethical behaviors by both bankers and politicans. The allocating costs should be proportionate to the level of involvement. The people had little to do with this. One must wonder why governments would be surprised that their citizens, having lost personal wealth, retirements and savings, face an uncertain economic future and will be taxed to underwrite private banking interest, that they might be upset with such plans. Put your money in the banks and it disappears....governments increases taxes, more money disappears...governments give money to banks.......seems only the banks benefit.
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Social Welfare spending has never been shown to have either a positive or negative effect on economic growth, and more than enough people on both sides have looked.
France and Germany spend proportionally much more of there budget on welfare than any of the 'PIGS'.
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#18 Vass
Socialist planned economy?
You are having a laugh right?
If you think this is tough, give that a try for a few years. Then you will really know the meaning of pain...well, assuming you have not disappeared.
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"Socialism. The day it happens, me and many others from that rare breed, the greek taxpayer, will be out of here for good."
Lisa, the day you'll be out of here for good, me and many others from that oh so common breed, the greek worker, will be waving you goodbye.
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It is easy to blame the Banks for the mess we are all in but the greater blame should be heaped on the politicians who borrow money and expand the National Debt like there is no tomorrow and are more than happy to see Banks turn a profit. The more profit the Banking Industry makes the more tax revenue the individual Governments make ..... that is why Governemets are reluctant to impose too close watch and restriction on banks to make sure they behave ethically and prudently.
Everyone has an interest in making sure that our Politicians understand that borrowing fecklessly and allowing the banks to lend to them recklessly is not a remit granted by election.
The downside is that governments in the future will have to live within their means and that means planned economies which mean smaller budget costs, reduced public expenditure, less spent on welfare, smaller education and research budgets and smaller military expenditure.
People have to live within their means now or face difficult times - so should governments and we, THE people, need to make sure that our politicians live in the real world like the rest of us or face losing their authority to represent us!
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As I can count a fair number of Greeks as friends I have discussed this topic numerous times before it blew up and became the mess it is now.
What they told me was that the Greek society is struggling enormously with a culture that seemingly encourages reliance on the state for an income and (was?) run by a government that seemed to rely on the EU for a hand-out.
The Greeks I know are hard working and dedicated to their job and families. and I really hope for their sakes that the government is able to address the problems that have arisen. But without any help from the EU Greece will deteriorate and perhaps fall into a pattern of similar decline experienced by their Balkan neighbours. Surely something that the whole of Europe and especially the Greeks themselves want to avoid.
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The anger in Greece is brewing because the ordinary taxpayers will pay for the sins of the politicians in Greece and in EU.
The vast majority of Greeks agree to shoulder the burden of getting the public finances in order and we will do so with our means but I do not grasp the Greek Bashing. This attitude misses the point and as a suspicious Greek I believe some try to hide EU’s problems showcasing Greece’s.
• The budget deficits and the largesse of Greek politicians are on Greek Taxpayers’ tab not on Europeans’. Greece is not asking for free money and grants from other EU taxpayers.
• If Eurozone is so well managed how come budget problems in an economy that is less than 3% of EU’s causes such turmoil in the global markets?
• Where is the Eurozone solidarity to protect a member against abusive lending practices? If Greece is so much bankrupt why lenders did offer 25 billion euro debt, albeit with 6.2% interest, when Greece asked 5 billion? If the Greek economy is so bad the lenders would not have offered any money – at any interest rate.
• Where is the EU solidarity to guarantee Greece’s boarders against Turkish aggression so we can lower our defense budget? By the way most our arm purchases go to European suppliers who are happy to sell; it is quoted that 13% of Germany’s arm sales go to Greece.
• Where were EU and Eurostat when the past government cooked up the data? (according to press) Mr Papandreou had alerted Mr Barosso and Mr Almunia over an over to no effect. Do they not share the blame of “no oversight”?
• Why is Greece singled out for the GS swaps when other EU countries have multiples of what Greece had? Why does the media not tell which country, how much, from whom and when signed such contracts? (some say GS followed on the footsteps of German Bank’s swaps in Portugal; but did it in much larger scale )
• Why such a pressure on salary cuts? What % of the cost goods & services’ comes from salaries? The problem of the Greek economy is the rigid business environment, the bureaucracy & corruption and lack of management know-how especially in the public sector. With these “waste-makers” things will not shape up even if all Greeks work for free.
We also get a bad rap from northern Europeans that the rich pay the poor who waste the money. Rich and poor all Europeans we footed the bill for Germany’s re-unification. If you see the trade statistics, the Greek contracts & purchases from Germany far outweigh the entire positive EU cash-flow to Greece receives. I think some should be careful snubbing the south; their best "captive markets".
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I wonder if the Greeks really understand what has happened to their country.
This appears to be what union leaders understand: "The Greek people are well aware that the fiscal situation of the country is in terrible shape...We demand a fair distribution of the burden, so that wage-earners and pensioners do not pay the price for a crisis they did not create."
But I wonder if the Greeks really understand what has happened to their country.
It is widely believed in Greece that international bankers caused the recession. That’s only half (or less than half) of the truth.
What’s more Brussels is not the other half.
So what is?
There are strikes in Spain, walk-outs planned for Portugal. Both are part of the “STUPID” countries that were not sufficiently finance-savvy to challenge the onslaught of totally unregulation default trade swaps. “STUPID” is not my term; I’m not sure who came up with the term but it includes Spain, Turkey UK, Portugal, Italy and Dubai.
Personally I think the list is incomplete. It should include: Latvia, Iceland, Pakistan, Ukraine, Argentina and Venezuela...and even some countries that I have missed.
STUPID + my own additions represent the countries with the worst burden in credit default swaps.
This is a crisis with deep, derivative roots.
Greece used derivatives to conceal it’s debt load. Did it know what it was doing? Maybe...
Investment bankers like Goldman Sachs, who helped Greece with these nefarious financial transactions, certainly knew what they were doing. My sense of justice screams from within my head: Investment banks like Goldman sachs need to be held accountable!
Investment bankers have one priority: profit. So, with that in mind, let’s consider investment banks like Goldman Sachs and their infamous, unregulated, unscrupulous cross-currency swaps.
Greece was seeking some way to reduce their fiscal debt levels without having to reduce spending or raise taxes. So, I imagine Goldman and other banks each had tete a tetes with the Greek Government, essentially the tete a tete said: "You can have your cake while you are eating it."
Goldman had an inside relationship with Manager, Antigone Loudiadis, who had performed valuable service for Greece and had good contacts within the Greek Government. Wall Street Journal: “Guided by Ms. Loudiadis in the 1990s, Goldman set up a series of currency "swap" trades for Greece, enabling the country to use favorable exchange rates to record some of its debts. By 2001, when those rates had become less attractive, Ms. Loudiadis helped Greece structure a different trade that enabled the government to continue using advantageous rates for accounting purposes.”
There it is: bad accounting, non-transparency...But here’s the frightening part: Ever since the Deficit & Debt Rules for EU states were drawn (early 1990s), there have been allegations that governments have used derivatives to get around them. The EU should've issued a warning. Economists were certainly warning, at least re the potential effect on soverign debt.
Since 1996, Italy’s Treasury has regularly used default swaps to apparently reduce its publicly reported debt ratios. Italy fell into the same trap as Greece (or vice versa). Evidence just keep crawling out re the derivative fiasco between Greece & Italy's Finance Ministries and the investment bank, Goldman Sachs.
I suppose bankers at Goldman were rubbing their hands that Greece & Italy and all other STUPID countries wanted to deal.
Effect: true indebtedness hidden, but growing, awaiting bubble day explosion.
Was the law broken?
The EU is studying the history of Greek debt. This may become some sort of test case.
Meanwhile, Ms. Loudiadis has become a Goldman partner. She's been named co-head of the company’s investment-banking group in Europe, making as much as $12M annually. From an investment banker’s perspective, that’s "having it made in the sahde".
What I think EU should do:
1. Ban all future trades that involve derivatives, default swaps, CDOs; in short all financial transactions that are opaque, convoluted, complex, contain combination packages and therefore leave a weak (if even existent) audit trail and therefore have a high probability of creating toxic debt.
2. Standardize accounting procedures. Make sure all EU countries are Basel compliant; If not, make them so.
3. Introduce across Europse a Tobin Tax - tax against all financial transactions at the point where they are transacted. Advantage: creates clear, computerized audit trail (at source and throughout trading history), provides transparency, tackles potential fraud, snags derivative trading at source...AND BEST OF ALL:
- provides money to alleviate EU debt, especially for countries that have encountered or will likely encounter sovereign debt,
- as well as provides (at least) some financing for EU social programs.
The United States will hiss like a stepped on snake. So what? Let the US play with its finances and deal with new, ignorent STUPIDS.
The EU does not have to play with the likes of Goldman Sachs. The EU has the opportunuty to take the lead in financial excellence. Grab on!
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Lisa,
I am looking forward wishing you farewell, adieu and all the best in pastures new.
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GiannisM #29 wrote
'Lisa, the day you'll be out of here for good, me and many others from that oh so common breed, the greek worker, will be waving you goodbye'
Lisa, look forward to seeing you in the UK.
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Budget cuts don't mean "will live within means". Governments don't care how the system will work after, they just cut. So, traffic stopped, schools closed, etc. Everything is right? No. Region is dead for people. Maybe not for some beer drinkers and vomit-masters...
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And socialism is not bad, and capitalism is not bad :o))))
(in personal experience of a lot of the first one and a bit of the second, during Yeltsin)
What is real disaster is when they are together!
The "state" state and the capitalism. how to say.
I mean if a corporation gets bursting from being rich - their problems :o)), and, how to say, very well and all.
But if that corporation is in-built into state money and taps it and sucks out the blood of the society by grabbing means that it didn't earn - simply the "state" contracts or I don't know how those murky things happen but they happen! Across the panel!
Like in Russia we have those huge "state partnership corporations" - what the hell is that! That is the hell, the state budget allocates them money "to act for common good" and then they are not subject to check of spending because they are how to say "blessed from the above", by definition sacred. That's where black holes appear.
And even without those monsters, the hell, after all, a few behemoths :o)) but when state workers get paid hilarious salaries , at the state budget money, the functionaries, and their salaries are far exceeding other "useless" :o)))) state budget users' salaries, like state medicine clinics, state universities, teachers and doctors and all.
Why the hell a functionary supervising an industry should be paid 100,000 dollars a month? Nobody, sitting no where, doing nothing, (but collecting bribes, as a side buck :o)))
By the way in Latvia I think last week there appeared some internet "Robin Hood" for who all are searching, a man who tapped into the tax inspectorate data and puts on-line steadily day after day for all to see the state workers in Latvia salaries, thousands of folks, in some transport ministry - the whole building has salaries 30,000 dollars per month, in some other ministries - and this is while the rest of Latvians are cut in salaries, (the doctosr-teachers level) and are being explained how prudent it is to be economical to return country's debts!
he is still not caught and their President said that when caught he will be punushed by law for stealing data , even if many sympathise with his noble intentions but, like, what to do.
But meanwhile while the popularly called "Robin Hood" is not grabatised people continue to read day by day and bobble their eyes, in what different worlds they live in one and the same country :o)))))
It looks like the Latvian president is the smallest paid :o)))) of all state workers in latvia :o))))
Nothing, compared to clerks in the Ministries. oh to say nothing of the Parex bank salaries - wow! Eldorado.
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When state money is siphoned to corporations, who one would think, in capitalism, should somehow make their own living :o))) - that's when "the best of both worlds" :o)))) occur.
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MaudDib, I think if you compared US military expenditure to "entitlement" programme expenditure, it's fairly clear which is bankrupting the country. If the US were to divest itself of the belief in its "entitlement" to attack non-threatening countries, you might find that it could fund a health system to be the envy of the world.
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George wrote: "Greece has not asked for financial injection, it has asked for fair lending rates that are of some respect to a country that holds the key to many things in the past and in the future to come"
Lending rates should be set be reference to the likelihood of you repaying the debt (and interest), you may have a wonderful history but it is all in the past. Be realistic, who is more likely to repay their debts Germany or Greece? The reason Germany pays low rates is that over the last 50 years they have always honoured their debts, lenders are not so sure about Greece. The fact that there are strikes about austerity measures which Greece needs (at least in part) simply increases the believe that you do not accept the hole you are in which in turn simply increases the likelihood that you will default in the future.
As for those wanting centrally planned economies, once an economy gets beyond a certain size and complexity (and Greece is well above that point) centrally planned economies do not work and cannot work. Not sure when the technical name for the problem is but it is in information theory - for a large complex system information can be complete, but historic or incomplete but current and the larger and more complex the system the wider the gap. This is vital because in a centrally planned economy if the information is not both current and complete, the govt has to make decisions based upon only a partial (or historic) picture of what is happening. That inevitably will result in them getting it wrong - and of course when you only have one decision maker then when they get it wrong everyone in the economy suffers.
Capital works by simply accepting that decisions have to made on partial information but by moving decision making down to the individual level you end up in a situation where at all times some people make the wrong decision but as long as enough make the right decisions the economy is always moving forwards. When capitalism leads to bubbles it is a recipe for disaster because all the people are making the same decision which is no different to one person making a decision for all of us, when it is wrong (as it will inevitably be at some stage because of the information gap) we all suffer.
Now there may be a future (far far away) where information systems are so good that a govt will always have complete and current information in which case centrally planning economy might work - but we are not there yet
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Politis
Well said. Greek Bashing is the new exciting sport world wide. Very civilised but it will prove to be extreme sport. Let's default. Guess which countrys banks Greece owns money to (Germany, UK etc.).
This'll Teach'em.
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Strikes won't help; Europe will have to face the fact that the EURO is history. The only way out for all (PIIGS and the rest) is to accept this fact and prepare a new start.
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Well, I know my country is not perfect (far from it), yet during the last 1-2 weeks I have realised that branding and insulting a whole nation as "lazy, corrupt, reckless", etc has suddenly become acceptable among international media, thanks to the current budgetary mess up of our MoF.
I would just like to remind to the German "Focus" magazine, that when it comes to generalising and stereotyping, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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Its interesting how EU was bitching about the 2 billion in donations to Kosova (most of it stolen by the said Eurocraps) and none is complaining about tens if not hundreds of billions that are going to be given to prop up states like Greece and Spain. Sad part is those two states call Kosova a failed state.
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"" STUPID + my own additions represent the countries with the worst burden in credit default swaps.
This is a crisis with deep, derivative roots.""
Complete nonsence. You do know that CDS instruments had absolutely nothing to do with the credit crisis and are still actively traded and VERY liquid right now? I would suggest you have little understanding of credit derivatives and certainly no comprehension of the causes of the credit crisis.
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#26,
You are very right that is the problem we have, when people are calling for cuting government deficits they jump to solution i.e. "how" instead of the "why" also "what are trying to achieve". As, an IT engineer I always have to know the "what" the "how" something should be done comes later in the prosess.
The question is "what" are the government there for?
If the government are there to represent the people as they claim, then they should not cut spending now when there is about 10% unemployment in most developed nations.
If the government are there to protect the bankers (which they appear to be, but they claim they are not) then they should cut spending now and ensure there is no inflation therefore the net value of the few bankers that the governments realy represent doesn't get eaten away by inflation.
The above is true for all countries, Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Latvia, Lithuania, UK, Germany, etc.
Also similar questions, at this point time should be asked about the EU, given the situation that we are faced with today, what is the point of the EU? What does it try to achieve?
If the collective strenght of the EU & the Euro is weaker than its weakest member what is its value? and the point of having it?
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1. Ban all future trades that involve derivatives, default swaps, CDOs; in short all financial transactions that are opaque, convoluted, complex, contain combination packages and therefore leave a weak (if even existent) audit trail and therefore have a high probability of creating toxic debt.
Default swaps are one of the most simple derivatives I have ever worked with. In addition your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how derivatives work. ALL future trades are derivatives I'm afraid.
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By the way. Give back the marbles you stole when we were under Turkish occupation.
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BluesBerry @33
I quite agree that various Governememts have been naive or downright criminal in borrowing excessivly and even borrowing using implements that are shady if not totally crooked but demanding a Tobin Tax is just yet another example of what governments in the Western World have been doing all too much of for years and years now.
Public Expenditure is funded partly by government revenues and partly against borrowed loans in advance of economic growth. The problem with Governements, especially of the liberal-socialist kind that predominate in Western Europe, is that they spend far beyond their income and have done so consistently since 1945.
Governments find it very hard to introduce austerity measures and certainly hate to lose popularity by reducing public expenditure so, for decades now, many different governments keep coming up with more and more different ways of raising tax revenue, selling off national assets or borrowing more and raising national debt.
It would be a fool to think that a Tobin Tax would not simply go on to further pay towards the gross cost of maintaining ever-increasing Public Expenditure.
An example of how quickly liberal minded people can quickly spend yet another tax was the speed with which the concept of the Tobin Tax was going to be levied in the UK and then immediately be spent on environmental protection measures in the Third World.
When the UK is fast sinking under National Debt interest payments it seems mad to me to consider spending money, levied in the UK, elsewhere in the world but that is how socialists think - as long as they have access to other peoples money they can spend it quicker than ink dries on the money they give away!
We really have to stop governmemts thinking that taxpayers are an unlimited resource of funds and stop those same governments borrowing money to fund bottomless holes like social welfare, unaffordable free accomodation and handouts for those who have not contributed to the economy or the national welfare funds, grotesquely overbloated and bureacratic civil services, NGOs, quangos, unnecessary wars, and most of all see Banks regulated and controlled by THE people servants - our politicians - who are there to ensure that society benefits form having a banking industry and not be destroyed by that industry ..... and if that means tight regulations to avoid shady or crooked lending at the expense of reduced banking industry tax revenue then so be it.
We all - and that includes governments - have to live within our means and raising yet more taxes or borrowing more and more money has simply got to stop even if it hurts in the short term!
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vassilis #41 wrote
'Well said. Greek Bashing is the new exciting sport world wide'
If you don't want to be bashed, why did you give us Nana Mouskouri ?
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The time of reckoning has arrived for Greek society as a whole.
Strikes, marches, walk-outs, protests and the such may be understandable from a social viewpoint, especially of those millions who are least responsible for what Greece's establishment has brought upon the country.
Yet this is almost entirely a Greek call to heed and should be strictly seen as such.
Those who are genuinely interested in overcoming the country's structural imbalances must step forward and loudly support measures deemed necessary to reverse the situation.From a national medium-to-long term perspective.
In fact the entire plan to trim the deficit bringing it below 3% in 2012 - extremely ambitious on an incredibly tight timescale, should be named Internal Adjustment.
If Greece rises up to the momentous challenges ahead it might also initiate a new era of responsible government.
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Blame the EU - good old whipping horse. But, to more important thoughts:
# vassilis: in #7 you complained that wages in Greece are lower than the EU average; and then you complained about capitalism.
Now, as a non-economist my understanding is that if the country is a low-wage one, it should attract a lot of inward investment (eg outsourced from other EU countries). But it seems this hasn't happened on as large a scale as, say, Romania? Why?
Something more than simple wage costs drive people to take decisions such as where to locate a new factory, say. And, in Greece (it seems) there is too much corruption, there are too high social costs, and there is endless bureaucracy. These are the factors that have let Greece down for decades. It's not capitalism that is at fault. It's a fault that socialism couldn't fix either.
And, these factors are not the work of the EU, nor of any other outsider: they're Greek. And, until Greeks really - but really - understand and believe this, things won't get any better.
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I am a Greek, and will be the first to say that we have only ourselves to blame.
Let me be the first here to make one thing clear. Greece is not a socialist country in the sense that, let's say Sweden, Denmark etc are. It is not a Social-democratic state. Instead it is a crony-capitalist republic made up of various interests (whether they be in the public or private sector) who enforce their views, laws and will upon a silent majority(who have had their voices and political power removed by media etc) so as to benefit themselves.
An example of the injustice of being a Greek citizen is the fact that we have different levels state provided health cover depending on where you work, or what your profession is. So if you are a civil servant/doctor/lawyer/engineer/journalist, you have the privilege of being able to seek treatment by private doctors/hospitals, but if you are a worker in the private sector, you only have access to doctors/hospitals provided by the state health service.
Or another example is that women in the civil service obtain 18 months of maternity leave (fully paid for), whereas women in the private sector have only 3 months of paid maternity leave (if that in some cases).
Another example is that there are ample civil servants who have received abundant payouts and pensions at the age of 45, all from the public purse of course.
The 'workers' you see participating in the strikes are almost exclusively from the public sector (civil servants, workers in government owned utility companies, or government owned banks).
The various union movements are there soley to look after the interests of these class of workers. Greece's two main unions are ADEDY (public servants) and GSEE (private soctor worker union). GSEE is a joke. It's board is made up of public servants, and workers from public controlled utility companies, who's only purpose is to look after the workers in these utility companies (OTE, DEH, Greek National Bank). When courier drivers had a strike a few years ago, asking for basic needs like helmets and protective jackets (they ride motor bikes), GSEE turned their back on them.
Let me put a few things in context though. The Greeks in the private sector work hard and very long hours. Someone has to work in this country to feed the 1.5 million public servant workers/pensioners who always have their hand out. And the workers in the private sector are paid VERY low wages for the work they do and for the hours they put in. They also pay A LOT to government run social security and pension funds (44% of their wage goes to paying IKA - which is the government social security company for workers of the private sector). I for one pay a wopping 900 euros a month, and as I stated above ONLY have access to public hospitals and doctors.
What I am trying to say is that in Greece, currently, there are two main groups. Those that work from the private sector (low paid, not many benefits even though they pay a lot into social security schemes).....and those that either work in the public sector or are a member of a 'closed professions' (doctors, lawyers, engineers, pharmacists.....) who enjoy everything from private health care (paid by the government), great pensions, and welfare.
I for one, as a Greek, would be happy to see this corrupt, unjust country fall on it's XXXX.
Enough is enough. The workers and professionals of the private sector have had enough. We don't want to pay taxes in order to feed various parasites who have the political power to take from the rest, for their own benefit. We want a country that provided EQUALLY to all it's citizens.
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Not sure if it is foreign governments to blame or the Greek politicians as well as spending spree by Greeks are. Greeks lived "la Vida Loca" for last 15 years, spending their free EU money on the way to "Europenize" . Once the free money was over, government borrowed heavly to ensure that good life of its people continue, especially when it was election times. The reason for all this is simply; fiscal irresponsibility by Greeks. FT recently stated that all farmers in Greece have new tracktors. Most are not even being used. A country with limited industry should not have been let spending like this.
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jobsagoodin
Probably the most valid point I've read so far.
I accept that I have to be bashed without mercy for Nana. :-)
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If you ask an economist why a money lender should receive interest on loans, they will invariably tell you the interest is the reward for the risk the lender is taking. The risk of losing the money.
Now when lenders lend to governments, by buying government bonds, the only way they can lose their money is if the government defaults or starts printing money madly.
However, in the current situation Greece is being asked not to do either. Or rather, it can't print its own money and it is being asked not to default.
In effect, Greece is being asked to reduce the risk of loss to those who lent it money to zero. The circumstances which would normally mean the lenders must lose have come to pass in the fullness of time, and yet politicians from the EU wish to remove the consequences of loss.
Now getting back to the original question of why lenders should earn interest, we are faced with a curious non sequitur. Lenders should earn money in interest because they take risks.
In this case, there are no risks. Therefore, surely, they should earn no interest?
I think it is clear that the lenders perceived the EU as allowing them to remove risk from the transaction. Therefore they ought not earn interest. Indeed, they should repay Greece all the interest they have received thus far. No risk, no interest. Every economist ought to agree with that.
Alternatively, if the lenders want to keep the interest they have earned so far, et them accept the risks as they were at the time of bargain, and let Greece default. Let the lenders suffer the loss, and learn their lesson.
It seems to me that this situation in Greece can only be explained if we are to accept that lenders to governments in the EU suffer no risk, and yet earn their interest.
That situation is not only economically ridiculous, it is morally worthless. It is slavery by numbers, and those who advocate for it should be treated with the same moral repugnance as is reserved for people smugglers and child pimps.
They all want money for nothing, and they do not care who is hurt as long as they get their profits.
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@Vassilis
The problems Greece has have nothing to do with other's and everything to do with them.
You (if you live there) and your friend and falimy, how many time did you ask for a receipt for the services you get i.e. eat out, or refuel your cars, or pay a doctor or an electrician? if your answer is not every single time then please stop giving us the sorry story that everyone else is to blame and that a control economy would solve your problems.
Also your Greek problem is that you do not produce enough and your buy too many foreign made goods, again how many times did you check where a product was made and bought a Greek made product as opposed to a foreign made? Again if your answer is not every time please start searching for someone to blame closer home, than further afield.
Now having said the above the EU & the Eurozone need to take this problem seriously and fix the Euro rules as they stand at the moment they are a joke. If an Euro economy that is only 3% of the Euro can cause so much stress, then the rules have failed. There is no solidarity and there is no union.
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Nana was our gift to people who gave us capitalism!:-)
BTW. Nigel Farage's attack to 'EU President' Herman van Rompuy was excellent (at a symbolic level). There is such a lack of leadership in Europe right now. I think that it might disentigrate pretty soon. And Euro was ill conceived from the beginning. It works well only for Germans so they can keep it. We want to go back to the old drachma (referendum now please). Euro is not working without common fiscal policy and further political integration (which simply is not going to happen). So, let's get out of it pretty quickly, go to IMF, back to a devalued drachma and be poor but at least depend less on German friendly exhange rates.
Also,
@frenchderek
Greek corruption and especially bureaucracy pale into insignificance compared to what is going on at the central EU level. Social costs in Greece pale into insignificance compared to the social costs in Germany and France. Get your facts right. If we are to have even lower salaries (China type?) to attract foreign capital, no thank you, this is a bad deal. Change the system radically.
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Lucky Old Europe that it's just "banks" :o), and Greece that it's "just" corruption.
Russia is one level above :o), merge and alliance of private corporation and state structures, with the state budget "helping" the private corporations directly "for the society's good" :o)))
Which is not even good old corruption, but a one step further - institutionalised robbery. All legal, by law, state budget goes to finance private corporations. :o))))
Karl Marx himself would be lost for words how to call this phenomena.
All those not yet affected by "it" - beware!
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Just to show the crooked collusion between banks and governments - both of which exist to take money out of the pockets of citizens (be they Greek or British) - it has been announced that the UK Government has just approved the RBS Bank to pay 1.3 billion GBP in bonuses to its staff despite the fact that RBS lost 5 billion GBP last year.
Nice work if you can get it. Lose money for your employer and take home a bonus ...... the problem I have with that is that 84% of RBS is owned by the British Government which is me and the rest of the British nation.
Its not so much that politicians don't seem to be getting the message, it seems that governments really do not understand that THE People are going to feel more and more angry with politicians unless they really do reign in the Banks whether they are in the UK, Germany, France, Greece or any other european country for that matter
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@georgez
The only people paying taxes in Greece are those working in public sector (they cannot hide anything). A large part of the private sector (shop-keepers, taxi drivers etc.) pays no tax whasoever.
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@ 9, George:
I see you already read greek press today. I found these arguments about stolen greek gold by the Nazis in Austrian press too. But they said it was ridiculous, that Germany paid back more than it really took.
My suggestion to Greece is that it shouldn't ennoy the cow that gives their milk. Imagine the tourists no longer spend their holidays in Greece or Greece is trown out of the Euro?
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There are so many levels to this overall problem that it would take a 10 volume book set to just enumerate them.
At the heart of it though is Greece's fateful decision from its BabyBoom generation to focus its efforts on enhancing themselves using the government as its tool.
Relatively few people of that generation worked for another other than a government job or one that is directly connected to it. Up until now, this has worked, but, now that world has become more independently minded, Greece has kept its government focus on "moving up in society" in tact.
It now finds that this will not work and many people who have had this plan for generations find themselves fighting against logical conclusions.
Take the Euro out of this picture and Greece is still in the same predicament.
The chicken has come home to roost for Greece--time to change. Focus your economy on non-governmental commercial/entrepreneurial enterprises. Make things, sell things, make your country proud.
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Vassilis.......you don't tell the whole truth do you ?
Low wages in Greece exist exclusivley in the private sector alone.
In the public sector, the Greeks are paid on par with many Northern European countries.....FOR THE HOURS THEY WORK.
You seem to forget that public servants RARLEY work the hours they are supposed to work. Walk into a public service in the morning, and you will rarley see all the employees on their roster there. Fake sick leaves are the norm. Their co-workers always punch in their card, even if they don't show up to work.
Greek teachers are supposed to teach on average 20 hours a week (there are quite a few that teach much less). They are not required to be on school grounds when they don't teach (In Europe, teachers work 8 hours, whether they are in the classroom or not). If you average out theur wage, Greek teaches earn in excess of 25 euro an hour. Add that most of them also do private tutorials.....and you will see that the teaching profession in Greece is more lucrative than a lot of other proffessions.
Don't fall for the low wages argument. Greeks of the public sector earn more than their European counterparts by far.
There are MANY public
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@57 "how many time did you ask for a receipt for the services you get"
My experience (in Vienna) with service providers (plumber, locksmith, etc) is that you typically get a 'discount' if you do not require a receipt. I do not blame people for not asking for receipts. It's not my job to do the tax collecting and if I get the exact same service, but for less, I will choose the paperless transaction!
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@ 58, Vassilis:
News for you, Germany agreed in creating a common currency as a gift for the French and others who feared a too strong Germany after it was reunified, a Germany that could do its own way without being too interested in the EU. The Euro was not Germany's idea and believe me that a large majority of Germans would rather have kept the DM without sharing a currency with countries that are irresponsible.
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@ChrisArta
I agree with you. These are serious specific problems in Greece (personally I get receipts from almost everywhere than I can). In my humble opinion though not at the heart of the problem. In a nutshell: casino capitalism + Euro that suits the Germans = economic meltdown for all PIGS and STUPIDS. BTW, I would like to thank Gavin who publishes all my comments.
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#62,
Standing over here in sunny England, if there was a "trade" war between Greece and Germany, it looks to me as if the Germans may have more to loose based on their trade balance if, the Greeks then turn around and stop buying German products. I don't believe that line of thinking is doing anyone any good.
The idea of the EU is that all the nations in the block work together as one and not fight amongst themselves. What is going on today is not good for the EU and I can only hope that the EU government are working together to find a solution to avoid something like this happening again in the future.
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@Tortilein
The village I come from in Greece was burnt down completely by Germans as they were leaving Greece, about 30 members of my extended family burnt alive in large ovens. I know that there was no compensation for this. The Germans simply lie. But who am I to claim this, a lazy poor south european.
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"Vassilis erote :
The only people paying taxes in Greece are those working in public sector (they cannot hide anything). A large part of the private sector (shop-keepers, taxi drivers etc.) pays no tax whasoever."
You are kidding right ?
Where do you think the money to pay your wages comes from uh ? Where do you think your pensions come from ?
The only class of people who pay in Greece are the private sector employees..........NO ONE ELSE !!!
The payments that government employees make to their pension scheme are "accounting tricks" by the goverment (Basically these payments are put back into the budget as income, and an IOU is given to public servants"
This does not happen in the private sector my friend. Taxes and pension payments are paid straight from our pockets.
A word of advice people. Vasilis is a typical Greek public servant......who are the main culprits as to why Greece is in the economic mess it is in.
The private sector has been the public sectors wipping boy for far too long.
And let me say this.....as someone who pay's their taxes. If I had the choice I would not pay tax. Why should I ? For the great education system, or for the great infrastructure, or for the great health care system the Greek public servants provide ?
I pay (myself and my employer) 900 euro's a month to the government welfare scheme for private sector workers (IKA). When the time came for me to seek medical help from a doctor in the public hospitals......I had to give him money in an envelope so as he could operate on me in a timley manner (otherwise the wait was 3 months).
Tax evasion in Greece is a neccesity my friend. Someone who conciously pays taxes in Greece is a fool (I am one). Paying taxes to feed the overbloated, corrupt, inept Greek public service is like givinh heroine to an addict........they will ALWAYS ask for more.
Let the public service in Greece die the death it has too........I hate it with a passion.
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Tortilein wrote:
"But they said it was ridiculous, that Germany paid back more than it really took"
Please look up Kalavryta and Distomo. They never paid for that, neither did they pay for the gold they looted from the Bank of Greeve reserves.
"My suggestion to Greece is that it shouldn't ennoy the cow that gives their milk."
Nice simplistic view of the world, which seems to forget that Greece is of of the top importers of German products, and that our enormous defence budget is largely spent on German equipment.
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@georgez
'Low wages in Greece exist exclusivley in the private sector alone.'
etc.
You must be joking. We might be leaving in different countries.
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@Tortilein
No prob. Back to national currencies.
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"@57 "how many time did you ask for a receipt for the services you get"
My experience (in Vienna) with service providers (plumber, locksmith, etc) is that you typically get a 'discount' if you do not require a receipt. I do not blame people for not asking for receipts. It's not my job to do the tax collecting and if I get the exact same service, but for less, I will choose the paperless transaction!"
That is exactly the case in all western countries.
The Greeks ( if the public sector) have a habit of blaming the "bad private sector" for not paying the taxes they are supposed too. They use it as an excuse as to why they are in such a mess.
They do not however say how corrupt tax collectors are though. They don't tell you that when a tax collector walks into a business, he/she is not there to inspect the books, but to line their pockets.
What they also don't tell you is that in Greece, bank deposits are not stated when you do your tax returns. In other words bank deposits are not inspected on a yearly basis, so as to see if the deposits match the income you stated you have earned for the year. Bank deposits are CONFIDENTIAL.
Why is that you may ask ? Well the first who will fight this (along with the drug dealers) would be the public servants themselves. Where else would they put what they earn "under the table".
To give you guy's an example of the rort the government workers partake in....there was a case where a married couple fell to their deaths in the Helios flight a few years back (flight from Cyprus to Athens crashed killing all on board). This couple were tax collectors. When there will was being executed, it was discovered that along with a lot of real estate they had in their possession, they had close to 1 million euro in the bank.
That is one story of MANY more.
How many public servants accross Europe do you see in mercedes benz ? In Greece they are everywhere.
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39. IShouldBeTheEditor
2010 US budget
SS, Medicaid, Medicare @ $1,438B = 23.5% of budget
Military Spending @ $663.7B = 12.7% of budget
The thing is us baby boomers are just starting to hit the ss/medicaid/medicare pool. You ain't seen nothing yet. As for the military thing. I can tell you I and most all Americans would like to keep our men & women at the house and the coins associated with that.
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They can complain as much as they want. It is their fault and they cannot even blame it on their politicians because each country gets the leaders it deserves. I hope Freeman's question #1 will answered with "yes".
Vassilis - you seem to have absolutely no idea about anything and only blame others for your own mess. Bravo re.
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"@georgez
'Low wages in Greece exist exclusivley in the private sector alone.'
etc.
You must be joking. We might be leaving in different countries"
you didn't read the post carefully did you ?
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It is not necessary to go through the events of WW2 again. German banks have been giving credits up to 535 billion Euros to the so-called PIIGS-group and that is one of the reasons why Germany is involved in this as a state.
Another is the Euro project it self. The German government is behind it and it has a mandate from the voters to be.
The Euro will be defended, also by Germany. If necessary, Greece will be supported with the appropriate means, but at the same time Athens faces a number of economic-political demands to make changes in the government spending.
Televised statements shows that this reality has also reached the Greek society.
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@ 69, Vassilis:
Sorry to tell you that but you won't have a lot of success by playing the Nazi card over Germans at my age, that may have worked 50 years ago. I was born 1980, I was 9 when the wall fell and 10 when my country was reunified, that is the history which counts for me and my generation. You won't make us feel bad or responsible for what happened to your village because we aren't. Time goes on and new generations come and these generations do ask why we should bail out a country which is only link to us via a currency that we did not even want.
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@georgez
Since you start talking at a personal level. I pay my taxes and happy to do so. I ask for receipts. I work hard and long hours. I am not corrupt. I am grateful for the education I got in a state school and state university (no fees, paid by the tax payer) I have a modest salary and I am trying to live within my means. I have not been able to go for a holiday for many years because of a combination of too much work and no money. Happy to get a cut in my salary during such difficult times but at some point I won't be able to live.
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#75 MaudDib
I stand corrected. However, your raw numbers are correct but the percentages are not. I think you got them from Wikipedia; the percentages shown there in parentheses are in fact the increase over the previous year. The actual percentages, however, show that the spending ratio is even more tilted to SS etc. than military:
SS, Medicaid, Medicare @ $1,438B = 40.5% of budget
Military Spending @ $663.7B = 18.7% of budget
"The thing is us baby boomers are just starting to hit the ss/medicaid/medicare pool. You ain't seen nothing yet."
Same in Europe. Fun times ahead.
"As for the military thing. I can tell you I and most all Americans would like to keep our men & women at the house and the coins associated with that."
If that is true, why is it politically taboo even to suggest reducing military spending? Obama is going to increase spending by 12.7%, and he was elected on a mandate of change!
I do not mean to single out the US for enjoying huge military spending while insisting on "reigning in" social spending, the UK is as guilty if not more so. So is Greece and many African countries that take billions in aid. It's an international sin; the US stands out just by the colossal size of its military budget.
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Government worker then ?
What exactly is it you do in the public service, and how many hours are "long hours" ?
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Just to let people know. Not all Greeks are like Mr Vassilis here. I for one have been waiting for promised "reforms" for many years. I am one of many.
Those who want to continue the status quo are more or less all public servants or member's of the "closed professions".........
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Of course individual citizens of Germany can voice their disagreement, but let there be no doubt: The German government under the leadership of Helmut Kohl was in favour, strongly in favour of the Euro.
See for instance the statement of Kohl back in 1997 here http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/june/nf70620a.htm
Germany has simply been a driving force behind the Euro, and as Die Zeit wrote in the edition last week, it was only symbolic for Germany's involvement in the project that Frankfurt am Main became the head quarter of the bank.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8535121.stm
" ... Nigel Farage .... Belgium, which is pretty much a non-country."
EUpris:
I'm a British citizen. I hate the "EU". I do not hate the Belgians. I resent the description of Belgium or any country as a "non-country."
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First of all, everyone needs a transparent banking system. Canada was the only industrialised country to escape the "credit crunch". Why not use that as a model. The "avoidance" of taxes must be curtailed, even if Greece has to bring in foreign experts. 63-years-old to retire?? that's just lame. Join us 65-year-olds in the West that are just having our first days of retirement. The attitude that the State owes you a living is just plain wrong. I've been to Greece, and while I was thrilled by the natural and historical treasures they have, I was most disappointed by those who were supposed to look after my well being just being a surly lot. If they can join the real world and work out the differences by eyeing what other Western countries do, they just might make it.
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"The Greek government ... are targeting tax evaders."
EUprisd: Good idea! I get told off by people in my line of business because I am honest with the tax man. We should not have aituation in which the honest man is made to feel stupid.
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Surely, after these last few years of recession, corporate bail-outs and mass unemployment the paradigm shift cannot be the pruning of public sectors?
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IShouldBeTheEditor, 14: there's a bit of an inconsistency in your comment.
In para 2 you say "Greece's fiddling with the books absolves any finger-pointing at the EU, whose scrutiny can only be effective on the basis of honest financial management on the behalf of member countries". But in para 3 you say "it has always been obvious that the status quo was not sustainable". If it was obvious, it should have been obvious to the EU, notwithstanding any book-fiddling by the Greeks. And don't forget the status of the EU's own books - I understand the EU's accounts haven't been signed off for some years - so the EU should have been alive to the possibility of fiddling at a national as well as union level.
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"It is widely believed in Greece that international bankers caused the recession. ... Financial products were chopped and sliced and repackaged and resold based on selling mortgages to those who could not repay them."
EUpris: I tried to warn somebody about this just as the recession was srarting. I got snapped at and shut up. Luckily for him, his bank refused to lend homm any more. Nobody forces drug addicts to take drugs. Don't blame it all on the drug-dealers!
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'The EU is increasingly unpopular in Greece. ... "We have lost part of our sovereignty," said the Prime Minister, George Papandreou.'
EUpris: The people of the UK are paying a lot for this. They are entitled to have some sort of say on how their money is spent.
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'The EU is increasingly unpopular in Greece. ... "We have lost part of our sovereignty," said the Prime Minister, George Papandreou. '
EUpris: Wot!!!???!!! Has he only jusy worked this out? Loss of sovereignty is the essence of the whole rubbishy organisation.
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@ Mathiasen:
I guess Danish government doesn't always follow it's voters either just like it's German counterpart. Weren't there Danish soldiers in Irak?!?
I'm not even anti-EU or anti-Euro but I guess that should have happened at a smaller scale. Austria, Denmark, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, the countries around us which share something, I call it a common view on European integration, with us. I have nothing against the others but there are so many cultural and above all economic differences between these 27 countries that a real integration will indeed never be possible. I would even be in favour of a federal state with these countries because I think this could work. Greece, as an example, and I have nothing against Greece or any other country, but they lied their way into the Euro-zone and now it is again for us to pay the bill. An integration needs above all trust and reliance and the will to continue what has been started even if the government changes. I didn't see this will in Poland for example when these siblings came to power who were against anything (Germany, Russia, EU, ....). At a smaller scale a real integration could work and maybe there could even be found a majority among the people for that, but I guess it's too late now. Too big, too undemocratic, too unpopular, too far away from the sufferings and the worries of the people.
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"The difficulty the Greek government finds in making the case to the unions is reflected elsewhere in Europe. There are strikes in Spain and walk-outs are planned in Portugal. Sooner or later the high-spending public sectors will have to be pruned."
EU[ris: In the meantime, British taxpayers are paying for it. People who cannot retire untill they are 65 are paying for people in other "EU" countries to retire earlier.
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"The strikers are marching for fairness ..."
EUpris: Good! So would they please start complaining about how much British citizens are paying for the rubbish called the "EU" and for their "relaxed" life-style.
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"Another is the Euro project it self. The German government is behind it and it has a mandate from the voters to be." (Mathiasen, 78)
Could you provide some details on this mandate? Was there a referendum in Germany on the Euro? If so, when was it held, and what percentage of Germans voted in favour of the Euro?
Alternatively, if it was decided at a general election, which one, and could you list the political parties that supported the Euro in their manifestos and those that didn't, and the percentage of the votes each party received?
Have there been any recent opinion polls in Germany on the level of support for the Euro, particularly in the light of events in Greece?
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65. At 6:45pm on 24 Feb 2010, DiscoStu_d wrote:
"@57 "how many time did you ask for a receipt for the services you get"
My experience (in Vienna) with service providers (plumber, locksmith, etc) is that you typically get a 'discount' if you do not require a receipt."
EUpris: Same in UK! "If you don't want a receipt, you won't have to pay VAT" And he won't pay income tax on it.
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@96 learn by yourself
The Euro was created follwing ratification of the Maastricht Treaty (1992).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty
Regarding Germany, the Bundestag, the German Parliament, had approved the Treaty of Maastricht in December 1992 with a majority of 543 out of 562, and the Bundesrat, the representative body for the Länder, had voted unanimously in favour of ratification.
No mainstream party has ever called for going back to the DeutschMark.
But odd nostalgia can always surface here and there.
A bit like some UK ppl bemoaning the loss of the shilling or the Indies ...
Best regards,
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#93 Tortilein
I live in Berlin. I vote in Berlin, and I have no voting rights in Denmark.
I am in general surprised by the discussions about the representative democracy in this blog. To cut it short: The main rule is that the voters approve or disapprove the decisions made in the legislature period at the general election following the legislature period.
Re the Danish warfare in Irak (and Afghanistan) the Danish government has received two approvements from the voters via general elections, and still today Denmark is one of the few countries with a general support behind the military effort in Afghanistan. There is a majority behind this in parliament and in the population.
Re Germany and the Euro: As you will know there is a huge majority in the German parliament for the Euro and there has been the whole way through. It was the case with Kohl as chancellor, his successor Schroeder, as it is today with chancellor Merkel.
If the voters in Germany want another direction, they must vote otherwise. I am absolutely confident that the German voters are aware of this.
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89. CornwallCoastPath
The two comments of mine that you quote are completely unrelated; you take the second comment out of context. I wrote: "But Greece has long had a bloated public sector, and tax evasion is a national sport - these two problems should have been addressed years ago as it has always been obvious that the status quo was not sustainable." The status quo of a bloated public sector and widespread tax evasion is what I suggested was unsustainable, and obviously so. These two problems do not come anywhere near the remit of the EU; they are Greek internal problems that could only be addressed by Greece. They were not.
This is why I find finger-pointing the EU unacceptable; Greece cannot insist that the EU scrutinise every aspect of its economy far beyond the call of duty and then at the same time complain that it has lost sovereignty.
As for the EU's finances, there is a huge difference between a supranational, non-sovereign institution not getting the books signed off for technical reasons and a sovereign state's actual, deliberate, outright fraud. And incidentally, the main reason the EU cannot get its books signed off is because of its lack of power to police how individual member states dispense EU funds. Such oversight is the responsibility of the member countries themselves. If they choose to accept fraud or even drive fraudulent behaviour themselves, this cannot then be thrown back at the EU. I'd rather EU funding went to useful things rather than policing corruption in member states, who should police themselves.
And I'm supposed to be working frantically to an approaching deadline but this debate is distracting me. I blame Greece.
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MORE WORRYING STILL:
Austria Radio websitew quotes EUobserver as saying that Ashton wants to merge a number of "EU" organisations into a "spy-service".
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@georgez
higher education, research. 60-65 h per week. I work most weekends also. I am a workaholic. The retiring age in Greece for men is 65. The average is lower (indeed due to a very soft system which needs reform, women are entitled to very favourable early retirement which needs changing, EU is after us for this and rightly so). Personally, I am happy to stay at work for longer provided my health permits it, 67, 68... 70, 75...
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Mathiasen,
I thought you were a danish citizen? How is it possible to take part in federal or state elections in Germany?
I guess it is the same everywhere, a party or a person is elected mainly because of inner-political issues. So you can't say "oh, they voted XY, so they must like the foreign politics of XY".
And beyond that there is no party which is against the Euro or the EU except those from the extreme right wing which are not even in the federal parliament. And what do you expect from the German people, to vote for the Neo-Nazi-parties NPD or DVU just because they don't like the Euro? This would be, somehow, unballanced, don't you think? But apart from these right wing-parties there is no party which critizises the EU or the Euro. So how could our parliament be against it? But you should not think that our parliament represents the people on that issue. This would be very naive.
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The Germans got the Euro because representative democracy isn't working.
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I'm also supposed to be working frantically to an approaching deadline but this debate is distracting me. I blame the Markets and Speculators.
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South German Newspaper (Sueddeutsche Zeitung) reports fury in Greece over German comments. Comments on German occupation similar to those in this blog.
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Mathiasen,
I'm half German, half Colombian, and to be honest (I'm getting red now), although I consider myself left-wing the last time I voted for the president of Colombia I chose Uribe. To be honest, I don't like this man and never liked him but I thought he would do something against the inner conflicts in Colombia, you know, the FARC against the paramilitaries, the paramilitaries against the people, and the army against everyone. I knew that Uribe was quite US-friendly and wanted US-bases in Colombia and it was quite clear that this would lead to problems with Colombia's neighbours. Nevertheless I voted for this man but only because of inner-political reasons. I hated his suggestions on foreign politics.
And that's the way how a government comes to power, in Germany, in Colombia, in every country, what really cares are the politics at home.
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'South German Newspaper (Sueddeutsche Zeitung) reports fury in Greece over German comments. Comments on German occupation similar to those in this blog.'
Of course, this is known for years, it is not new. We have not been compensated. Germans killed (burned alive) some 30 people of my extended family, also burned the house I now own (inheritence from my mother) in my village. My family built it years later when we managed to gather some money, I was a teenager when I was helping to build it again. I find German attitude pathetic and unfair. It is a disgrace for a supposedly civilised nation. Greece owes absolutely nothing to Germany. To GB probably a lot.
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Don't know about you vassilis, but my work is much less interesting than this debate.
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IShouldBeTheEditor (100): you seem to be saying that dishonesty at a national level (fiddling the books) is completely unrelated to dishonesty at an individual level (tax evasion). Have I understood you correctly? If so, then I disagree with you; they are both part of a country's culture.
"The status quo of a bloated public sector and widespread tax evasion is what I suggested was unsustainable, and obviously so. These two problems do not come anywhere near the remit of the EU; they are Greek internal problems that could only be addressed by Greece."
I agree; but you also seemed to be suggesting that the EU shouldn't be expected to be aware of these problems and their possible implications, such as fiddled or unrepresentative national accounts. If that's the case (and apologies if I've misunderstood), then again I disagree.
"As for the EU's finances, there is a huge difference between a supranational, non-sovereign institution not getting the books signed off for technical reasons and a sovereign state's actual, deliberate, outright fraud."
Either the EU's books need to be signed off, in which case all efforts should be made to achieve this, and "business us usual" put on hold until that happens. Or they don't, in which case a public statement should be made to that effect. Consistent failure by a commercial company to sign off its accounts would not be tolerated (at least here in Britain); the company would be forced to close.
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I read the messages and "knock my head in the wall" (greek expression to state ones' dispair!) seeing most European (and a couple of US) as well as most Greek guys here completely losing the heart of this issue.
1) I have seen 1 American guy trying almost with anxiety to put all the blame singlehandedly on the Greeks (and why o why himself, an American would try do such a thing in a country he hardly can spot on the map? Maybe cos deep inside him does indeed know that this is not at all about Greece!)
2) ... then I have 1 Greek guy who talks about "capitalism enslaving Greece" and other such funny stories and calling for a return to socialism... please, please with all due respect, cut this naif stuff!
I have explained that the whole situation in Greece is nothing new and nothing that the current generation of 20-40 years old or the 40-60 one but predates even the 60-80! Greece is a hot geopolitical spot and its economy was just a little piece (and not even the most important) in the whole puzzle that was arranged by foreign forces, not inside Greece but outside.
BUT (and for once, please pay attention to this BUT and stop saying whatever about me trying to put the blame elsewhere!), that does not mean that Greeks have any less of responsibility. They have played the game imposed upon them by others to the maximum. The bulk of the people have let themselves being victimised. They have tolerated the expansion of the notion of "party connections" (i.e. kind of mafias), they have tolerated lawlessness, they have tolerated lax behaviour and lax work. While the bulk of the people are hard working (Greek working people have the most real working hours among all EU working people) they have tolerated loose work, loose behaviour, and they have even tolerated the destruction of public facitilies and such, all in the name of some liberty.
But above all they have tolerated the 30% of society living parasitically over the 70% of the rest. Now here you will tell me "ok, that happens pretty much anywhere". Well the real difference is that in Greece this stemmed out of a totally different process and that ended up in this rare case where this 30% of sharks, parasites and mafias is actually independent of social classes. I.e. there were 10s of 1000s of working class people that won out of all this corrupted state. And there were 10s 1000s of rich people that were over-taxed and robbed and saw their previously healthy businesses closing. Even international corporations like Nissan and Pirelli could not withstand having businesses in Greece despite their plans being acclaimed as "their best internationally" (this for the case of Nissan) while other companies like construction consortiums and supermarket chains thrived, for the single reason that they were accustomed to work in corrupted states!!!!!!
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To clarify. Personally I demand no money from Germany (there is no way to compensate for human life and a house is just a house, you work and you build it again, I need no charity), but please when you put my country, my heritage, my hard won sovereignty to your mouth be very very careful. And of course I accept no Germans to tell me how my country is run. Good or bad is my country. Better to be governed by Greek crooks than German 'honest' people.
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And I come to commend the above situation that Gavin described in his article and which (understandably) makes outsiders ponder...:
a) On the one hand you have a PASOK (socialists!?) government led by pro-US US-passport holdren son&grandson of PMs, PM Papandreou who managed to measure the Greek deficit only 1 week after taking up the power while the EU could not do that for more than 10 years now! Then he asked "help from the EU" and then he even accused the EU for "little support", quite weird all that. Back in the country, they announced a series of measures out of which the most well known are freezing of salaries and increasing to 62 the retirement age.
b) On the other hand you have the workers unions like GSEE and public workers union ADEDY doing a strike and protesting having as a flag seemingly the arguments against the 62 years of retirement and the freezing of salaries.
And the outsider, specially most of you who are foreign, stands perplexed thinking "hey... they have a problem, their past governments lied about the economy, they got it well due to loans, now they even protest against 62 years of retirement age while in the rest of Europe it is 65..."
Well that is not the case. Follow my points very carefully:
GSEE and ADEDY are not unions that really protected any real workers' interests. They are unions directly linked to political parties and play the political game all along. Just to give you an example, GSEE is the very same union that was dragging with force the extremely well paid and cared workers of the NISSAN assembly plant to go out to strike for... Nicaragoua... no no I am telling you the truth!!! At the same time the (then again PASOK les by Papandreou, father) government changed the tax especially for NISSAN and taxed the parts imported for assembly with a full-car tax which was an international first! The final car costed more than being imported from Japan and the factory closed leaving 1000s of people unemployed. What had happened? The PASOK governement wanted to protect the importers' interests, and since importers are more important than producers in Greece for reasons that stem back to point 1 above. So GSEE was just told to play the game along: Nicaragoua? Nicaragoua (it was not even Cyprus eh?).
So GSEE even now they play the game all along. This government while inheriting a tragic situation (for which their party is fully responsible of course, perhaps the main responsible at a 65-35% situation with the right wing ND party) they brought this issue at the current extend so as to pass certain measures. The GSEE follows according to the game. They have to react, they are a workers union afterall... so what do they do???
They react 1) to the freezing of salaries and 2) to the 62 years old retirement limit. About the rest they remain more or less vague.
I.e. they mainly give focus to the 2 most logical measures that any rational governement would take. As a result all rational people in Greece and elsewhere jump up on their seats and say "Heeey... common... this is unreal! This is of course not the first time the GSEE does something similar. They have a long record of doing strikes for the wrong reason. GSEE leaders are all political party members and most of then have knocked the doors for getting later other positions, often becoming MPs. Hence in this case too they will react up to the level that the government (or worse, other circles) tell them. Ask any logical Greek (certainly not any gauche-caviar) and he will instantly classify them as integral part of the problem.
The main problem is that the governent right now is going to take a series of measures that will be simply catastrophic for the country. And these measures are not at all the 62 years of age or the freezing of salaries. They mainly have to do with even higher taxation of the relatively small salaries, a higher tax on the already overly expensive fuel and a higher VAT. However even these are not the worst, the worst is that the government aims at selling off things at other levels... if you know what I mean...
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I can asure you, right now there is outrage against Germany in Greece. General feeling: we want nothing to do with Germany. Let's go out of Euro, Europe and go to IMF or default. Let's be poor but independent (especially from Germany), we don't care. Stories from our childhood from parents and grandparents about the German occupation and German atrocities resurface chillingly in our memories. It is better to lack social discipline and be poor than to follow with discipline orders to kill indiscriminately women and children because the Greek resistance killed 2 German soldiers. We overcame such a dramatic period, our current predicament is about money and salaries etc. This is nothing we will survive but we cannot accept any insults from Germans for our way of life for our mentality and the way we think.
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"But odd nostalgia can always surface here and there.
A bit like some UK ppl bemoaning the loss of the shilling or the Indies ..."
(Starbuck11, 98)
It's that kind of arrogance and condescension that turns people off the EU: any opposition to the EU must be due to the opposer's own shortcomings.
The comment about the shilling is a good example of this. In Britain we had a pro-Euro politician a few years ago saying that Britain adopting the Euro would be a similar type of change to decimalization in 1971. It obviously isn't: decimalization didn't involve Britain ceding a key part of its sovereignty to an external authority. The fact that this politician made such a comment reveals his utter contempt for the electorate.
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Vassilis,
as long as your country doesn't ask us "honest" german tax payers for our "honestly made" money I don't see any problem with your opinion because personally I couldn't care less about Greece, I have my own problems. To get one thing clear, you don't own us nothing but we do not either.
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Oh for goodness sake! This commentary is degenerating into a hysterical historical soap opera.
Firstly - all loss of life in any historical context is two things. It is eminently regrettable to those denied the life of their loved ones, and it is in the past.
Did we not establish the European Union, and the Euro, and together, work damned hard to assure both their existence and success, so as to reconcile, to draw a line under the suffering of the past, and try to get on with a common future?
Blame and recriminations serve nothing, especially not those whose lives were lost. We can ALL club each other stupid with history - we should never forget our nations individual histories - nor should we deign to repeat them.
Secondly - what good is it doing? Is it helping to alleviate or ameliorate the situation in Greece, in Spain, the UK, the US, Japan, Indonesia or wherever. Doubt it. Sure, scratching historical itches might briefly distract from more pressing and painful issues. But these are not going to go away just because we're taking swipes at each other.
Cool heads folks, and eyes on the prize we all desire, please.
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@93 Tortilein,
It is good to see that you have no clue as to what you are talking about!:))
The sad thing is you have no clue also as to the benefits the EU brings either.
Ohh well no great loss anyhow.
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Vassilis,
you're comment linking mdoern Germany and Nazis once again is simply pathetic. Give us a break. In fact, do leave the EU. We don't mind. I also think a union of Germany, Austria, France, Holland, Denmark would be much better. It could even become a political union.
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Vassilis. A foreigner cannot understand that the Greeks are of the very few real nations that their notion of nationhood is independent of their notion of state, thus Greeks do not associate themselves to the state itself necessarily. A foreigner also cannot understand that Greeks are not people that measure things down to the last cent. And foreigners cannot realise that Greeks' anger is not over measures such as the 62 years of age or the freezing of salaries but the blatant injustice of having a local mafia that was even fed by EU-packets blindlt (or not so blindanly! even worse!) sent by Brussels ruining everything and then the axe falling on them. It is something like the police enterring the bank after the robbery and forcing the bank employees to pay the money stolen! We know who stole it but what should the people do? Take weapons in their hands and enter their houses and kill them or something? What can you do when all the country's mechanism is made to protect these people and make them prosper even at the very same hour we speak? What can you do when most of the these people are the only interlocutors the Americans and Europeans want to have in Greece? Eh!
This situation has exasperated even several of the Greek business class. I read Vgenopoulos (a well known Greek businessman) said that himself and other serious businessmen were ready to be taxed a voluntary higher-than-normal tax (i.e. money given and not returned) for some period to aid the government gather quickly some hundreds of millions (even more than a billion) but the government will have to give proof that it does something for the endemic corruption. According to him such a tax alone could simply avoid most of the harsh measures on lower classes. Now you might not like or trust Vgenopoulos (angel or demon or middle) but here he expresses the opinion of a large number of the more serious side of Greek business that is hit seriously by this crisis and the lack of trust on Greek business. These people are willing to pay off to clean the country than continue to do business under these conditions. On the other hand, the sharks' part of the business is not so pressed, as it cannot be hurt by the lack of international trustworthyness for the very simple reason that they are mainly doing business inside Greece (ha!) and they are government-fed (he!) - so you would not expect them to feed back the government (even if in an imaginary world, they wanted to do so they could not, cos they have nowhere else to take the money to give it to the government)!!!
The big question is this: The ND earlier government rose to "clean up things". It had even its turn at declaring the previous financial books as void, and back then again the EU was not satisfied to know that the previous Greek government had lied. Finally they did nothing and they did not fight off corruption, the only thing they managed was to reduce a bit the party-connected employment from the previously amazing levels that past PASOK governments had reached. Now the same with PASOK governement, they declare the previous books false, they pretend to come to clear things and restart... but... from what we see they do little other than attacking the middle and even lower social classes as well as the last production base that remained in the country.
But I have emphasised in 2 large (huge) projects:
1) Strategic agreement on the gaz pipeline connecting Greece to Russia
2) Srategic agreements with the Chinese on Greek ports
What this current governement has done? It froze both of them since the 1st week (alongside with declaring Greece with false books). Really? Why? Are these projects against Greek economy? Hmmm... start guessing...
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Mickalus is right of course.
But still it's damn good to be a Russian :o))))! with no eyes fixed on some abstract point in the air! :o)))
Which allows to . how to say, not to be fallen out of nowhere :o)
into this spot of place and time continuum.
and not feel an urgent need to toss out fathers and grandfathers - in fact. by looking at the fam. album. I think I am supicuiously like very very many there ... :o)
And not by the looks only.
So don't know about others ...(with the gaze fixed :o))) and all) - of Russians you can safely expect "more of the same". !
:o)))))
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I would wish it so. (more of the same).
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@93 Tortilein,
Sitting in comfort across the pond, I'm starting to enjoy the frantic fever the Germans have worked themselves up to, their news reporting is getting as good as our own over here.
So, either your media tells you lies or you:
a) So far who has asked you to pay anything? details please not general lies
b) Where is the proof that Greece lied more than anyone else to join the Euro, yesterday here GS said lots of Euro zone countries did the same thing. Maybe even including Germany??
c) What makes you think the Dutch would like to enter into a federation with you? Why not with us? (at least we both have queens as heads of state)
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We are not perfect, we have our failings but we did not start the war, we did not wreck the whole Europe, we did not start bashing other people, we did not ask for anybody's money. Leave us alone.
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Gheryando... you do not get it do you? You want Greece to leave EU? Fine. But Greece will not remain alone.
1) Greece will enter in a strategic alliance with Russians bringing down cheap Russian gaz, so cheap that Italy will not be able to resist.
2) Greece will enter in strategic alliance with Chinese opening its ports to all sorts of Chinese products who will find all ways into the EU (legal or illegal we frankly will not care once they leave our ports legally!)
3) It might even do the same with Indians too, no problems!
But above all - Greece will just kick out the US base and bring in Russian bases. Russian bases in Crete? Yeah, why not? If that is what you want. For the first time of your history you will see Greek-built, Greek-driven Russian-flagged commercial ships all over the Mediterranean and Russian military ships patrolling all over the place, in the Adriatic, around Corse, doing circles out of Marseilles and Russian soldiers coming down to Ibiza to club with the chicks there before going out of the Gibraltar and coming back to Russia but by the baltic sea, up to St. Petersburg and from there back in a circle to Sebastopol.
And since you are incapable of measuring the consequencies of that (because you will not realise that you will be paying Bulgaria and Romania 10 times more than what you have to pay now to Greece to keep them in the EU, transforming them to...US military bases, if that could be ever possible), please do not let me analyse at what problems will be the EU economies if such a scenario happens.
Do you love this scenario? You think its impossible? Well guess why the EU wants Greece inside by any means, in the first place. Guess why EU leaders back in 1980 said "the entrance of Greece in the EU was purely geopolitical". You are not in position to measure how many "Greek-bail out sums" you will need to pay if Greece goes out of the EU. At last, sit down and learn the basics of geopolitics and international economies.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#121 WebAliceinwonderland,
WA, don't sit there all happy you are not in this internal EU fight! If, Nik is right then Greece becomes your problem not an EU problem any more and to make things worse for you. If Greece get out then we in the UK want out also :)) and you make have to looks after us also:))
So you better prey the EU doesn't let Greece loose :))
But I also think that cooling the debate down a bit will be a good thing, it would also help if people were discussing facts no fiction. But I guess in politics fictions is what the name of the game is all about.
The only things that we know for sure are:
a) Greece needs to make changes
b) Eurozone needs to reform because it is not working the way it is at the moment.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
127. At 00:07am on 25 Feb 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
a) Greece needs to make changes
b) Eurozone needs to reform because it is not working the way it is at the moment.
Most sensible posting tonight.
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Nik, that's a great plan no doubt and all,
(and I do enjoy continuously how you scare all by us :o))))
no problem, by the way. I don't mind at all. we like to be naughty :o)))
but what would Russian fleet do in the Mediterranean, come to think of it. What to do in this water-pool of shallow light-blue water? :o))))
To scare the tourists lining its beaches? :o))))) with land-out marine exercises on hoover-crafts? :o)))))
Well, we love those, ceremonial visits, when a big Navy ship comes to visit a city, all decks scrubbed and local children and gazers crawl around and take pictures. That, quite popular these days, Navy routine.
Who doesn't, I mean, all Navy seem to like doing it. Lots of cities to pay formal visits in the Mediterranean no doubt, but after 2-4 months cruising around we won't look such a novelty, and the flow of tourists coming on board might get thin. :o(
For the next stage of a meaningful stay in Mediterranean I'm lost to imagine what can it be? ? ? But I think - of course a good base and bay on any of Greek islands is a nice idea, and the rest - simply to busy-body throughout to the ocean.
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ChrisArta @127. :o)))) You've interpreted my moods right. :o)))))
Come on, Russians ought to have at least something :o))) to be happy about :o))))
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Hi there all
I have being following this quite interesting discussion and i can say there is a lot of people that have great ideas on how to solve and fix things all over the world.
My concern is that non of the people who have contributed to all this mess are actually reading or listening to anything we the people have to say.
Maybe they intend to let us fight between our-self while they have a ball,and as we sit around and making our internet revolution in our living room others are changing and manipulating with our lives and our future.
Some even say that the Greek problem was intended one way or another to help the euro and certain country's!
Whatever the case might be a little revolution every now and then will probably get people of the backs and just maybe we can take back the power that belongs to us.
So lets see if anyone can come up with some solution we can really talk about.
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And, as for looking after smaller countries - no problem.
The thing is Russians are all for it, because excellently well realise that it's either one or the other - either the powers steal money privately and tuck them into foreign banks - or they chunk off a piece to help some distant unknown abstract place on the globe :o)))
Either way we know ordinary people will nevver get nil, so nothing to worry about. And it is far better to help someone than to have another local fat muzzle bursting from extreme wealth. So we are quite relaxed about that spending abroad. And Kremlin loves to build Potyomkin villages, to pretend we are rich and boast about (extrenally). So this is the case when population and Kremlin are rarely in agreement.
These days we are courting some Nauru :o)))) of all the places :o)))) as they promised to recognise our protege Abkhasia :o))))`
Not a single Russian knws where Nauru is (neither do I - not even in which ocean), but all think it's nice and friendly.
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ChrisArta
Thanks for your rational approach. It is perfectly clear that Greece has to change its ways but bashing does not help. It will be a long painful process, it won't happen automatically. We need encouragement, polical and moral support to go through these changes. On the general eurozone issue it is very simple. Eurozone without some common fiscal policies won't work. Germans just do not get it and their media are in racist hysteria against money-thirsty south europeans.
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Nik, I am thinking... :o) you don't have a spare Sebastopol, to rent?
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What would bring cash next summer to Greece quick is against EU rules.
Tourist visa to be purchased in the airport, on landing, like Russia had with Cyprus until several years ago. 3 years ago, I think? Cyprus finally lost it, negotiating in the Eu quarters, to leavve visa-free (well, 20 dollars on landing) tourists from old USSR quarters.
I've been in Cyprus, in Paphos, 3 times. :o))) Becasue we are lazy, can't think of planning holidays in advance, and those Russians who aren't lazy - they don't have embassies of Greece or Cyprus, to apply to. You need to fky within Russia 1,000 dollars and several hours to the nearest embassy - for way too many people. So Cyprus was belovved Russian hols place, exactly because you can pack and go tomorrow.
We have discussed it with Greece, but looks like no chance that they'll pull it through. Cyprus held so long within Shengen but beyond Shengen :o))) for Russians, because they based on being an island, and that Russians won't crawl out in the EU from an island :o))) even if they wished.:o)))) Well, rowing, on inflated mattresses :o))) only :o)))
And Greece is mainland and can't agree within the EU. :o(
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Nik :o)
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Moderators, a piece from a Soviet movie 1958. Who would want the rights for it? See, there are no even comments. :o) Nobody watches it but me. :o)
Nik, as an invitation over :o)
Refrain:
The most BLUE in the world -
Black Sea of mine! (Russian logic :o)))
And - sunset over Sebastopol. recognise own Khersones?
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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The real run on the Euro hasn't begun yet. But currency speculators are smelling the blood in the water. When it comes it will be hard and fast and everyone will know it. It will plummit like a rock in a pond.
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:o(
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OK, Nik; the beauty of the sun drowning in sea, over your colony of Khersones in the Black Sea (forgotten property) can be found by dialling dandiver1 that is the name of the user who placed the video.
1:34 all it takes for the Sun, the descend over the horizon :o)
it will pop up the 4th video from the top.
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why can't a Russian photo a sunset into the Black Sea, put it on youtube, and another Russian can't provide a link to it.
?
If someone placed the video of the place he likes, on youtube, I suppose he wants others to admire it as well?
what can be "the authorship rights"?
Sun is one for all, in this world.
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WA, the KGBBC does not like any photos of the sun setting. This is a British blog and Brits fondly recall the day when the sun never set on their empire. Now while Britannia may no longer rule the waves (we'll see what happens in the Falklands) it does rule the airwaves. There isn't a corner of the earth that can escape it. So the setting sun is taboo, a cultural no no in BBCspeak. BTW, Japan is the land of the rising sun. Try posting it on a Japanese blog. Rising sun, setting sun, in a photo who would know the difference? If it is a video clip...run it backwards :-)
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Mathiasen wrote:
"I am in general surprised by the discussions about the representative democracy in this blog. To cut it short: The main rule is that the voters approve or disapprove the decisions made in the legislature period at the general election following the legislature period."
That definition fits the soviet union perfectly well, Mathiasen.
You are perfectly correct to say "approve or disapprove", rather than "allow or veto". That is precisely correct. Voters in representative democracy can approve or disapprove, but they cannot change a thing. They can feel upset, or they can feel pleased. They have the choice of feeling howsoever they wish, and they can cast a vote in a ritual of expressing their general emotion disposition.
But they cannot articulate a rational position. Voters under representation can do no more than grunt with anger or joy. They can't focus their articulation and say anything rational, such as "Law number 1234 should not pass.", or "I believe this law 5678 will be good for our society."
The population in representative democracy is reduced to grunting like a stupid beast. They can make the happy noise, or the sad noise. Either way, it is meaningless noise.
Representation only works where those who are represented are those who vote. When those who vote are merely choosing amongst select representatives pre-chosen for them by private committees, all the voters are doing is rubber stamping the sham image of democracy.
In one company or political party selects all the people who can possibly be elected, of course the result is a sham democracy. We saw that in the soviet union, and we see it in China. People can bleat and grunt with pleasure or pleasure, and the participants in the sham democracy can say "But you voted! It is DEMOCRACY. You had the choice, you are responsible."
But if the owners of many companies and the executives of two major political parties select all the people who can possibly be elected, then somehow this is supposed to be REAL democracy. And yet people can bleat and grunt with pleasure or pleasure, and the participants in the real democracy can say "But you voted! It is DEMOCRACY. You had the choice, you are responsible."
You have it right, Mathiesen. In the sham of representation, the people can only grunt like caged animals, with no exercise of intelligence or freedom. They can pick a card in the card trick, but the deck of cards is rigged.
What we need is for the people to be allowed to exercise human intelligence. Instead of grunting like animals, people need to be asked to say yes or no to specific laws. Only then will the people truly be protected from corruption, and only then can the political system call itself democracy.
The only form of democracy involves human beings making rational statements like human beings. Democracy means people saying yes or no to the laws under which they live.
Anything else is a sham, a publicity stunt designed to cage human beings, to muffle them until they can do nothing more than grunt, and then to point at the grunts and pretend to know what they mean.
The reality is that western political parties and corporations are frightened of real democracy for precisely the same reason that soviet departments and the communist party were frightened of real democracy.
They are frightened that they will lose access to the tax revenue of the nation, and that the laws which make their sponsors rich will be overturned by a public that is not so stupid that it must only grunt with aprroval or disapproval.
Anyone who has had the discussion about real democracy with party members from both sides of the house knows this to be true. Political party members are frightened of the will of the people. They do not want the people to share the power they hold. In short, they do not want democracy.
But they want to call themselves democratic, because calling themselves what they truly are is degrading.
We either have representatives who have been preselected for us to endorse, or we have real democracy.
There is no middle ground on this issue, because as soon as you concentrate the power to make laws you focus all the big money in the community towards corrupting those who hold that power.
In this thread, we are discussing the corruption of politicians and the clear loser is the people. The clear winners are the owners of the same banks who sponsor both parties in greece and throughout europe. The corruption of political parties has a purpose, and that purpose is merely profit. They only way to stop the corruption is to diffuse the power, and spread it around so it cannot be bought off. Separate it until it cannot be gathered together and focused towards generating private profits for powerful families.
That is the cornerstone of why democracy is the best form of government. It is also the fundamental flaw in socialist thinking, which tries to convince folks that certain politicians are better than others, as if they were a different species of being.
Concentrated power is always harmful over the longer term.
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Don't blame the Germans.
What happened in the the 30's and 40's happened in the 30's and 40's. We are in a new century. If you want to blame the US then feel free but I say let's blame the Russians. We've always blamed the Russians in the US so I think everyone should get on board. You don't like that idea well then lets blame the religious fanatics. That's something we can all get behind. No...lets blame the banks, they make way to much money and these bonuses are obscene. No....OK lets blame the Greeks they have way too much history. I'm thinking lets blame the Maya. There calender ends in 2012 so that's got to be it. We're just following the calendar.
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MA, @142.
I don't even know.
I wish to translate, about the sun.
Mandelshtam died in Gulag, in 1936 approx. Mass grave and all nobody knows exactly. But if sunset is worrysome :o)))) - what about Mandelshtam verse?
Anyway. If Russians ever cared there'd never be any poetry.
...??? ..??? forgot the begining;
ah
I didn't look, in blossoming years, for yours, Cassandra, lips,
For your, Cassandra, eyes.
But in December of the solemn vigilance
Remembrances are teasing us.
)dear moderators, I'm translating myself. It's not my fault it suddenly rhymes)
For in December, of the ? forgot. must be "seventeenth" year
We lost everythingg, that we loved.
...
But if this life - is a necessity of delirium
And mast ship forest - buildings high
(that's St. petersburg, clearly. lines of strict high houses)
I fell in love with you, the arm-less Victory (Greek goddess. like in museums I think. without arms :o)
And winter in plague.
(wasn't very much "plague". simply - tiphus)
In the square with armed cars I see a man -
he
is scaring wolves away with flaming torches: Freedom, Liberte, Egalite.
(that's allusion to Lenin. in the Finland rw station, standing on a kind of a tank with a speech. when delivered packed to us from Germany :o)))
Hard to explain, to non-St. petersburgers. :o)
Ill, tired Cassandra. (got tired to promise us disasters, I think. with no one listening :o)
Ill, tired Cassandra. I can not anymore. What for
The Sun was shining, Alexandra, :o))))
Just hundred years ago - it shined for all?
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MaudDib wrote:
"Don't blame the Germans."
It is a delightful phrase, and has its place, but I'm less than sure it is the right foundation for an empire.
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146. At 04:59am on 25 Feb 2010, democracythreat wrote:
MaudDib wrote:
"Don't blame the Germans."
It is a delightful phrase, and has its place, but I'm less than sure it is the right foundation for an empire.
__________________________________
And for which empire are you Prime troll, chief mouthpiece, and grand stirrer of the sewage?
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[sigh..]
People, you are missing the point.
This is not an attack against Greece, it is an attack against the EURO, by the same "hedgies" who brought us in the recent recession.
Read today's news. S&P's and Moody's announced that they are planning to devalue Greece even more, because of yesterday's strike (as if people wouldn't go on strike in response to new tough measures elsewhere...).
To put it in simple words, the have bet against the Euro and now they are doing all they can to get the best results. And the best way to achieve this is to make a Euro-country go bankrupt.
Be sure that had Greece not been the weakest link, they would have chosen another indebted state such as Portugal, Italy, Spain, etc (and the list is long..).
By saying this, I am not denying that Greece is responsible for its own mess. What I am saying is that all this hostility by some northern European media is not justified.
If I am not wrong, the UK defied both the EU and the UN by entering a war that has left over 500.000 people dead so far, the French Government has been accused of deliberately exposing its own soldiers to nuclear radiation, the Netherlands tried to cover up a scandal related to dioxin levels in food a few years ago, there is also a big scandal involving Siemens and bribery, but noooooooooo........ let's all bash the evil Greeks who lied about their finances!
Some sense of proportion please.
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Mr.Hewitt, further to your last sentence,
“The strikers are marching for fairness, to protect their standards of living, but this is a crisis with much deeper roots and the politicians shy away from confronting it.”,
I would rather say: Evrika! It is clear that both the crisis and the following general strike in neighbour Greece were inevitable.
Being a graduate economist and a dealer at the same time, I think the real reason for the bad economic and financial situation is Greece lies first in the poor financial discipline throughout the EU. Ever since its entry in 1981 to what is now the European Union, all the governments of this country managed through active lobbying to draw all possible credits and to enjoy many financial privileges that gave birth to many banking, insurance and other credit institutions rather than to the modernization of the local industries (except maybe for the tourism and to a certain extend for the agriculture). The second reason is pure social. The gap between the ruling classes and the most deprived people was going to become deeper and deeper as a result of the combined action of the poor redistribution of the European funds and the inevitable enlargement and corruption of the local administration. The result is more than evident. The poor do not want to pay the bill of the budget deficit. The rich are no more able to pay it by themselves. The society is split into two quite different (by their social status) groups.
We were almost in the same situation in 1996-1997. But thinks here quickly improved after the introducing a second generation currency board allowing the central bank to act strictly as a limited LOLR, thereby making the country less prone to a financial crisis in the future.
Shall the Papandreou administration be enough successful in its acts and enough courageous not to give way to the street pressure? Shall the EU institutions be enough exigent to Greece (as they are to my country)? I guess both questions need special attention and quick action.
Sofia, Febr. 25th 2010; Generalissimo Franco
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FUN DEBATE HERE:) ENTERTAINMENT:)
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The Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) has today a couple of interesting articles about the present situation. The German ambassador in Greece has made a statement in which he asks everybody not to confuse what individual media are writing with the general opinion in Germany concerning Greece. This is announced after individual German media have made some caricatures.
FAZ is following up upon this situation in an interview with the chancellor. Asked about the currency, she says that the Euro will endure the crisis. I suppose this is to be understood as a commitment of the German government to do what is necessary to back up the currency and the people that are discussing the problems with the Greek government, namely the EU commission, the European Central Bank, and experts from the IMF.
According to Maastricht treaty a member of the Euro zone cannot be expelled. The same treaty commits all EU members to the stability and growth pact and therefore, the chancellor says, it makes no sense to isolate the matter to the Euro-16 group.
I can add as an example to this that Denmark is now cutting is government spending because it is in conflict with the stability pact, however not to the extend of Greece.
The chancellor adds that she will pursue the goal of stability of the currency with vigour. I read this as a declaration of a determined fight against such factors (governments and speculators) that endangers this stability.
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Nik,
of course I dont want Greece to leave. But comments like Vassilis' make me wish just for that.
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@WA 145
“(that's allusion to Lenin. in the Finland rw station, standing on a kind of a tank with a speech. when delivered packed to us from Germany :o)))
Hard to explain, to non- St. petersburgers. :o)”
Dearest Alice, the omnipresent picture of Vladimir Ulyanov launching his first speech from the “bronevik” (russ., armoured vehicle of WW1) is quite familiar, at least in Eastern Europe, at least for the people of my generation...
However, I would permit myself to comment that your rather poetical participation in this blog is somehow out of the context of the present discussion. It’s a little bit obsolete; it belongs to another historic time. Everything has dramatically changed since…. and, if I were you, I would rather offer another interesting topic just to maintain the privileged position Russia deserves among us, fellow bloggers from United Europe and North America…
Being a former St.petersburger, I still have much sympathy and comprehension for you as far as your participation is a lovely contribution to the fair play the BBC people are trying to offer here. Sorry for this comment. I still like you just as you are …. a courageous, aggressive, very educated (and maybe very nice) girl from the North of Russia…
Sofia, Febr. 25th 2010; Generalissimo
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I see a lot of people saying alot of bad things about greece. For the Germans i have to say that before saying that greek goverment is corrupted (which is) that the German state like company Siemens was the major corruption contributor to greece. Siemens has also been convicted for bribery to 35 other countries worldwide. So before saying you give money to greece ( which never happens-lending with profit is what you do)think first!!
Second, yes Germany has never paid back Greece for WWII, for the 5 dillion dollars (dated from 1946/with interest) to greece. But being a Greek we dont care about that money, just that we resisted Germans in WWII more than other countries that welcomed the Nazi beast, like Turkey for example, or the high economy Northern countries, is fullfiling me enough!!
Lets say that germans brought greece back with the WWII ocupation, something that not many countries suffered in WWII.
Third lets say we are out of the EU!! Should we stop byuing German/American fighting frigades/submarines etc etc, and weaponry? I think we should because this is where the majority of our money goes. Back to Germany and the US.
So if we go out the EU, we must leave NATO too, and then we will definitely have more money, not being forced anymore to buy guns and military products from the monopoly of US/germany!!!
But the EU tells us to cut wages but doesnt telll us to stop the majority of our spending money....military equipement!!!
That tells everything.
And last, why british( or any other major european economy) say they pay taxes for lazy greeks??
When have you given us money for free? every time you give us money (if you do) we pay them back 5 times!!!
This is not giving presents to greece is it?
and why is greek the black sheep of EU, when the debt is 300bn when ireland has 2.500bn debt? and what is the products that ireland produces and will help repay the bedt? (Nothing bad for the brothers irish people..just a question)
(At least greece has tourism and maritime that will give a steady income in recession times!)
Thanks for listening!!
bb
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151. At 09:59am on 25 Feb 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
According to Maastricht treaty a member of the Euro zone cannot be expelled. The same treaty commits all EU members to the stability and growth pact and therefore, the chancellor says, it makes no sense to isolate the matter to the Euro-16 group.
I can add as an example to this that Denmark is now cutting is government spending because it is in conflict with the stability pact, however not to the extend of Greece.
The chancellor adds that she will pursue the goal of stability of the currency with vigour. I read this as a declaration of a determined fight against such factors (governments and speculators) that endangers this stability.
_______________________________
Thanks, Mathiasen, for the timely posting of an article from a credible source, reporting from a credible politician.
I share your interpretation. Greece was not the only Eurozone member to transgress the rules - it was the one onto which the speculators latched. The rules, and their enforcement, need to be more vigorously policed.
This sane posting will also be a much needed cold shower to the hotheads.
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I live in Greece part of the year and part of the year in Paris. What I do not understand is why a cup of coffee should cost 5 Euro's in Athens when its 2.50 Euro's in Paris and an ice cream is 7 Euro's in Athens and 3.50 Euro's in Paris. The Greeks earn about the same as Parisians.
What is obvious from reading all these blogs is that not just Greece has failed but many western democractic countries have sizable debts. This is what happens in democracies where you have different parties running the country all wishing to please all wishing to line their own pockets in the short time they are in power. It is the failure of democracy. Or this type of democracy. What we need is real democracy. The type that was presented to us by Elivn Toffler in the "3rd Wave" This would stop political fighting and parties but would only have people implementing the policies that the people wish to have.
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Mathiasen
Re #99
Every now and then you really let your preference for anti-democratic political methodology slip through!
Quote, ".. I am in general surprised by the discussions about representative democracy in this blog. To cut it short: The main rule is that the voters approve or disapprove the decisions made in the legislature period at the general election following the legislature period."
An entirely acceptable explanation given its brevity.
However, it does beg the question the 'pro-EU' lobbyist significantly fails to address: What if the Citizen Electorate become disatisfied within the 'legislation period' with their Government?
All 'democratically' elected sovereign National Parliament/Assembly (whatever) within the British Isles and Continental Europe can be the subject of such vocal-volatile-sustained Citizen pressure that a Government elected at the General Election may no longer maintain its rule. It is obliged to resign & seek a fresh 'democratic' Citizen Mandate by going to the Polls.
A 'democratic' procedure that never concerns any EUropean Parliament (i.e. the MEPs). There is no way for the 390 million Citizen voters to express their discontent with the policies of the EP except every 4 years (IMO, hence a major contributory factor for much of the massive Voter apathy).
E.g. Would the same Greek MEPs be elected at this time as those elected less than a year ago? It is doubtful.
Right or Wrong, given the Greek Public's perception of the EU's policies/attitudes towards Greece at this time need the Greek MEPs reflect any of that clear disatisfaction? Sensible Greek MEPs will make an effort, but do they actually have to be bothered about what the Greek people think for at least another 3+ years - - NO!
As the EP never resigns (or even a segment of it) in response to European Citizens' views-concerns-pressures on its policies etc. the EP is a redundant exercise in your very short account of how 'democracy' should function!
As for your "..absolute confidence.." in the German voters belief in the 'EUro/zone' that is something you can claim, but without validation (as I pointed out on a previous Blog, but you did not respond).
Then you wrote 80% etc. German voter satisfaction with German Government policies towards the EU, using the National Elections as your valediction!
Thus, (and so typical of the 'pro-EU) ignoring the third drop in a row to a record low German Voter turnout in the actual EUropean Parliament elections in 2009 when only 1 in 3 Citizens went to the Ballot box!
Correct me if I am wrong, but if we use your shorthand analysis of 'democracy' being demonstrated by Citizens at General Elections it would seem fairly clear the average German Citizen Voter showed no inclination at all of 'approval' at the EP 'Election' if 40% turnout is to be the measure "...following the legislature period.."?
So, neither at EU Parliament level, Greek MEP representation, nor by German Parliament elections can anyone honestly claim 'democracy' is at work on behalf of the Greek or any EU Citizens at the present time.
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#155 Mickalus wrote
"This sane posting will also be a much needed cold shower to the hotheads."
It would had been more accurate to describe them "empty heads" judging by the level of knowledge some posts contain :))
Take "Giannis" 154, what all that has to do with the work the EU & Greece have ahead of them is beyond any guess. And where does all this going back in history stops? Do they want Turkey to pay compansation also? What about the crusaders & the Venetian republic for the sacking in Instabul/Konstantinopole, maybe also the Spartans must pay the Athenians compansation for the damage they cause during their 30?? years war!
Reality check: The Greeks need to cut their deficit, the EU needs to update Euro memberships rules as the current situation it is not working very well. You can not use the same currency without closer political & economic union. So, lets all together work towards that end.
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Take back all the bad publications or we will release "The Best of Nana Mouskouri" or even worse "Nana Unplugged", with previously unreleased tracks!
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The Eurozone should not bail Greece out. Certainly an IMF bail out is better since most of the money required would originate from outside the Eurozone. However a Greek default is preferably. Many Greek bond holders are outside the Eurozone and it would be possible to engineer a default in such a way that the outsiders will have to take a closer shave than the insiders. Most of the insurers of credit default risk are outside the Eurozone. A default would hit some of these insurers very hard, possibly fatally. This would make the world a better place and may even ease the pressure Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. Another advantage of a default is that it would bring the gloating in the Anglo-Saxon world to a halt while everybody is busy tallying their losses.
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Mathiasen #151 and Mickalus #155
Of course Greece was not the only one to transgress the 'rules' (such as they are)!
How is it Greece is in the 'speculator' pressure cooker and not Italy, France, Spain etc.?
It is very simple: Athen's most recent Government came clean on the economic-fiscal misdeeds of former Greek Governments!
There will be no economic-fiscal reality-check and even less chance of transparency by Rome, Paris, Madrid etc. Greece' glaring mistake of owning up to its faults is not the way of Brussels: There will be no transparency by such nations; deceit and connivance are the EU way of life.
The idea of the Elysee ever following suit and admitting to its economy being annually double-accounted is so far-fetched as to make the movie Avatar a realistic view of the World at large!
In all honesty: Is there anyone out there who actually believes that France could have recovered from recession whilst/whereas Germany has not!?
A Greek Government used to the blase indifference to accountability of Paris-Berlin-Brussels became recklessly open as to its lack of probity. Athens had thought it could act like the ruling triumvirate that brought in the 'EUro' and 'zone' with scant regard for how actively or otherwise Member Nation's economies could cope with the change-over never mind the consequences (and inevitably) of a cyclical economic downturn (and this recent one was a very deep, steep fall).
A very hard lesson: Politically Athens has lost all credibility and is so humbled by Brussels it is forced to introduce policies to suit the masters-of-the-'zone'. The EU can duplicitously proclaim it is the Hellenic response to the crisis when everyone knows it is really an EU steamrollering its policies on and over the Greek Citizens.
Surely a perfect demonstration, if any were needed, of no semblance of democratic responsiveness to a Citizen electorate exists within the EU.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
~157 CBW
'All 'democratically' elected sovereign National Parliament/Assembly (whatever) within the British Isles and Continental Europe can be the subject of such vocal-volatile-sustained Citizen pressure that a Government elected at the General Election may no longer maintain its rule. It is obliged to resign & seek a fresh 'democratic' Citizen Mandate by going to the Polls.'
Hmm.
If you look at British general elections over the last 50 years, you won't find any instances of an unpopular Government calling an election much before the 5 year limit. Macmillan resigned in 1963 (partly over the Profumo scandal) but Sir Alec Douglas-Home replaced him for a year until a General election had to be called. Wilson resigned unexpectedly in 1976 but the Labour government carried on until 1979 under Callaghan. Then Thatcher was deposed in 1990, partly because of the poll tax, partly because of her attitude towards Europe. But again there was no general election, as John Major carried on until 1992. Then John Major himself called the bluff of his party (but not the bluff of the electorate) in a back-me-or-sack-me gesture in 1995. More recently, Gordon Brown has been pretty unpopular over the last couple of years, but he's clearly going to stay on for the full term. Politicians of all nationalities like to cling onto power for as long as possible.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Elias Pleasestopolous;
"Take back all the bad publications or we will release "The Best of Nana Mouskouri" or even worse "Nana Unplugged", with previously unreleased tracks!"
Sarah Brightman did the impossible, she made Nana Mouskouri sound good...by comparison.
I can hardly belive there are only 10 million Greeks. It seems to me we have at least that many Greek owned diners in the US alone. Well maybe some Greeks own more than one diner, that could explain it.
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Generalissimo, @153, you do me a bad service :o)))
Since you didn't notice allusion to current Greece position in the verse I put on-line, I had to knock it to the mast. Even, added a picture :o)
And was not simply referred, but qualified as against the House Rules, at once. The verdict that will arrive from the moderators will surely say "had intention to assault Greece" :o)))) - which was, as you might guess, the least of my intentions. So rest assured I stayed on topic.
Anyway, this is all awful clumsy, hard to communicate not only in foreign language but disarmed (I mean the poetic quotes and songs and videos - nothing is allowed. and if 1/100 gets through by mistake :o))) it gets mis-interpreted :o)))
You think of Greece think money. I think "Insomnia. Homer. Tight sails".
how to say
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Interesting debate indeed.
Things are simple and complicated at the same time. I know it sounds oxymoron but I plan to elaborate further.
1. Things are ‘simple’, because what needs to happen is for Greece to put "its house in order" as the Greek PM have stated many times in international forums. How can Greece do that? Simple answer.
1A) Cut its public spending by keeping only the public service employees and bodies needed to run an efficient bureaucracy, reform the state pension system to reflect demographics and what is happening in the rest of the advanced european welfare systems, slash wasteful spending in public health sector (according to OECD, 30% of the costs are related to corruption!) and reduce its military budget (EU/Nato member after all!).
1B) Promote competitiveness and a different growth model based on innovation in sectors, where Greece can be competitive, in order to boost exports and attract FDI.
Greece can promote competitiveness by opening up the so-called closed professions (lawyers, engineers, notaries, taxi drivers etc etc), abolishing monopolies or oligopolies in internal markets dominated by inefficient public state corporations (like transportation and energy) and certainly by cutting red-tape/bureaucracy through transparency enhancement and simplification of procedures.
The sectors, where Greece can be competitive and innovative, are not difficult to find. What does Greece have? Another simple question. Sea, sun, a Med climate, culture/history and certainly a well educated (much better compared to their parents...) younger generation (big % of which is working abroad, including the writer…). Thus, except from the traditional economic drivers of Tourism (better quality, improved transportation and lower prices please!) and Shipping, Greece should focus on Green Economy (Renewables, Waste management, Green buildings/Energy efficiency), Agribusiness (thanks to the climate, everything can be organic! And what about greek wine? No one outside Greece seems to have tasted it...), services (financial, consulting for the whole SEE region) and definitely culture/education (who wouldn't like to study classic drama in places like Epidauros?). Plus Greece can take advantage of its strategic location (energy connection hub, exports of goods and services to emerging economies in Balkans, closer economic cooperation with Turkey, sea logistics etc). Definitely, more to say but I stop here.
1C) Combat tax evasion. Enough with the so-called black economy. Nobody seems to declare what he/she earns. So a digitalised cross-checking system needs to be put in place where assets under ownership will tell what is missing from the income declaration forms. No rocket science here. I am sure Sweden or Germany could help if in luck of ideas. To be fair to the current government, they are planning to pass in a few weeks time a tax reform which is addressing much of the issue.
1D) Education, education, education. Greece needs to re-focus its educational system on things that matter. Innovation and entrepreneurship. Plus concentrate its efforts on producing good brains in sectors where the country has tradition (like Shipping, Tourism, Construction, Classic studies etc) and could be competitive like IT, Green Economy, Agribusiness, Finance and Management.
2. Now the ‘complicated’ part.
2A) All these need time. And the reason why Greece does not have time is i) the markets cannot wait, they are greedy and reigned by short-term thinking, and ii) parts of the external debt needs immediate re-financing but without an EU-led support deal (do not mean bail-out here but some type of guarantees) and based on current market rates this will prove very costly and offset any spending cuts on the other areas. So vicious circle!
2B) All these need public opinion’s buy in. Without EU-led support to calm the markets, the public opinion will turn against not only the current government’s efforts but also against the ones (ECB, EC, IMF) who are pressuring for the much needed changes. Basically, EU will lose its status as a credible enforcer of these changes and people will oppose. They need to see hope at the end of the tunnel and also sympathy/understanding for their efforts/pain. The German press does not help on the latter…
Conclusion
EU needs to support (complicated?) Greece to buy the needed time to implement the needed (and simple?) changes to put “its house in order”. And if Greece fails? Then, it had its golden chance and lost it. So legitimately, time to leave Eurozone and EU all together!
I do believe in the current government honest efforts but if left alone, it might not deliver. EU solidarity needed! Otherwise, more countries will end up (if not already!) facing similar stories (incl. UK, Spain and Italy) and then it will be late to react!
Thanks
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Couple of comments.
1) democracythreat's assertion that interest on loans is only compensation for the creditor bearing the risk of loss shows a deplorable lack of understanding.Actually,interest has several components.First, the lender gets compensated for not spending the money now on himself but delaying his gratification in return for somewhat more later. Of course, there has to be a borrower,too, who is willing to pay interest for being able to use (spend/invest) money that he himself doesn't have. Then,the lender needs to be compensated for being exposed to a fact of life called inflation. And then the lender needs to be compensated for risk of loss. In other words, risk of loss is but one factor.
Lending to the U.S. government is deemed to be virtually risk-free as to repayment. In the worst case, the U.S. government could always repay by printing more dollars.(Under the euro, the Greek government can't simply print euros and thereby debase the euro for every other euro country.) But can the U.S. government therefore borrow interest-free as democracythreat would have us believe? NO is the answer. Who would lend money at 0% if he would thereby expose himself to losses from inflation? That's why there is an interest difference between Treasuries where the interest compensates for expected inflation and TIPs which protect against actual inflation.
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MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Elias Pleasestopolous;
....
I can hardly belive there are only 10 million Greeks. It seems to me we have at least that many Greek owned diners in the US alone. "....
Do their surnames also end in "polous"? Then they're not Greek.
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From BBC;
"The European Commission has recommended that the EU open membership talks with Iceland, saying the island already holds many of the EU's common values."
Great, one more broken economy for German taxpayers to bail out. They could then be called the PIIIGS. Ay, Ay, Ay....or maybe it should be EIEIO. Animal Farm.
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Guys... please lets leave this "blame the other" approach. Ok, Germans have never returned the gold they stole in the WWII and never paid for the victims but Germans may claim that this Greek gold was then in the hands of the Allies, Russians, Americans, British and French. So the line of tracing it down can be really long. Anyway, the issue is solely an issue between Germany and Greece and down to the basics is not directly related to this crisis for the very simple reason that given the situation even if Germans paid the double of what they should had paid back in the 1940s-1950s, Greece will not get out of its dark spiral since its economy is not productive and since much of that money will be eaten by the "sharks" as it happened with much of the EU development "sardine" packets. On the other hand accusing simply Germany is not enough cos if you search really very deep in historical facts, it was actually Britain that got Greece into war with Italy (there is evidence it was them that pushed Mussolini on his unreasonable for Italian as well as Axis interests attack against Greece) and again it was British that forced Hitler to attack Greece (by "more-or-less" murdering neutral Greek president Metaxas (officially he died of "medical error") and forcing their "help" that was largely unwanted - note the same few pro-British generals that called in the British, were the ones that handed in the country to Germans! Not by accident!). And then again it was the British that paid and armed the communists so to organise a civil war. And again British and US supported the continuing ethnic cleansing of Greeks in Konstantinople and of course they actively (even militarily) supported the invasion in Cyprus.
So just avoid going so back in details. Go back but keep it in the general geopolitical context. As said above, even if both Germany and Britain give in money what is owed to Greece it will not help more than delaying the evident spiraling of the deficit for the simple reason that the country does not produce anything special to make money. The biggest attack on Greece has been the whole geopolitical context around the country. Just picture the country back in the 1980s. Turkey always on te verge of the military offensive, Cyprus half-occupied then all the north communists and even historically not so friendly, the whole Black Sea communist, a real no-go, Egypt under dictatorship and underdeveloped, Syria in international isolation, Lebanon in civil war, Israel in war with Palestine...WOW! That is what I call a neighbourhood!!!! The only stable close country is Italy but Italy's development meant that its south would remain underdeveloped and all the money would go to the North that is nearer the European markets, hence the south was not meant to host any major ports. Greek ports could not profit of the Suez trade either since there was no point for commercial ships to stop in Greece since it was not connected to anywhere else.
Greece is a small mountainous country with little agriculture, very few ressources but with a huge oil reserve but which is not allowed to be extracte (under threat of war) and is a country whose fortuned depend singlehandedly in international commerce - especially the one between Middle East and Europe and the one between Black sea and the rest of Europe. The major hope for the country is to revive these two ancient commercial axis. Lets not forget that Greeks of the 18th-19th century became rich enough to host 2 major revolutions (in 1770 and 1821) singlehandedly thanx to that commerce and went on to develop one of the largest commercial fleets in the world that currently give near-0 profit to the country since they are managed internationally (most ships just never see any Greek port in their service life).
That is why I stand to 2 major projects that the (besides that, largely failed previous ND government):
1) Russian gaz
2) Chinese management for ports
We are talking about the hugest opportunity that was ever proposed for the country in the post-WWII after perhaps the 1980s Japanese approach to the country which was again rejected by the socialist government led by US-passport holder Papandreou the 2nd (as I explained in mes:113). Now we have Papandreou the 3rd who rejects these 2 projects and that is what is amazing! Russians and Chinese are offering to pay the biggest part of the deal, not to mention the collateral investments that will follow and the big kick for Greek businesses to flourish and thinks that it is better to just tax more the middle and even lower class possibly dropping the country in a worse spiral of underdevelopment. And what is the EU comment to all that? Simply none! As if they lost their speech on that, they only care about the deficit (a deficit that can be corrected more easily than last years bank bailing).
I will not cease to repeat the above. These are strange moves, very very weird moves. What is the point behind all that if not US attacking 2, sorry 4 birds with 1 stone: the stone hits Greece (not only its economy but much more along with that), then it gets the EU and at the same time it attacks directly Russia and quite indirectly Chinese (who have of course more options and are not that anxious).
Trust me, in the times we live, the main fight is US against the re-establishment of Russia. And the EU remains in the middle, a seemingly opinionless random bunch of inter-fighting countries. Our American friends here accuse that and wished that Europe "became more active" but really... do they really want Europe to do so? Cos if Europe becomes active, then you won't seem them in Iraq or Afganistan but in Space setting their own GSP (Galileo - a project so much fought and sabotaged by the US), you will see them in Moscow setting bridges for further communication and deals, in energy, space and from some point on even in the military. In a few words, an activation of Europe will simply mean the end of the historic US-Europe collaboration (if one can describe it like that). So really - and no offense here - either our American friends are not so well informed, or they are simply being naif to think that an "active Europe" will become a better US ally.
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161. At 12:51pm on 25 Feb 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
....
There will be no economic-fiscal reality-check and even less chance of transparency by Rome, Paris, Madrid etc. Greece' glaring mistake of owning up to its faults is not the way of Brussels: There will be no transparency by such nations; deceit and connivance are the EU way of life.
...
Tread carefully cool_brush_work. The EU is much more than "Rome, Paris, Madrid etc" - your generalisations sweep large swathes of territory and peoples. By my readings of this crisis Italy and Spain, and others are in the same hot water Greece is. How were such facts revealed? Societies produce statistics about themselves, and anyone can plainly see many EU states have been binging for quite some time on cheap credit. Do you not accept this is so?
...
A very hard lesson: Politically Athens has lost all credibility and is so humbled by Brussels it is forced to introduce policies to suit the masters-of-the-'zone'. The EU can duplicitously proclaim it is the Hellenic response to the crisis when everyone knows it is really an EU steamrollering its policies on and over the Greek Citizens.
Surely a perfect demonstration, if any were needed, of no semblance of democratic responsiveness to a Citizen electorate exists within the EU.
...
I almost wept (with both laughter and for lost innocence) - both for the cruel dashing of your utopian vision and for your apparent child-like credulousness.
Last point first - responsiveness to a citizen-electorate is what has landed Ireland in it's current morass. The electorate elected politicians who made the object of economic policy the acquisition of ever larger amounts of property and of loose credit, and re-structured the taxation system to facilitate these measures. Now the property party is over, the banks, politicians and civil service are in utter disarray, the economy is severely hungover, and the taxation system can no longer raise the money needed to run Ireland.
Object lesson 1: Persons are intelligent - people are stupid. When a herd mentality sets in, politicians are required to have the gumption to stand up and say "Well enough is good, but this will end in tears" and act to moderate for the good of all.
As for the EU steam-rolling it's policies over Greece, what policies and how are they steam rolled? Are we talking about the same organisation that when asked by Bulgaria to assume a form of co-administration to reform the Bulgarian justice system, took fright and declined that crown instantly? The organisation you describe isn't an organisation I recognise - please enlighten me further...
Object lesson 2: The EU is not (yet) equipped to deal with the economic non-compliance of its' members to an agreed orthodoxy. It will now need to be so equipped.
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Wonthillian
Re #163
Can't say I altogether agree with your version of the UK 'political' constitutional manoeuvrings over the last century or so.
From the 1909-11 crisis of the so-called Liberal 'People's Budget', to the end of the Lib-Con coalition in 1922, and on through to Macdonald's 1st Labour Government in 1924, the demise of the 2nd Lab Govnt & creation of the National Government circa 1933, the lack of Citizen approval of the 'in-place' ruling Party/ies' policies played a significant role in effecting change of Government.
Similarly, post WW2, the 2nd Atlee Lab Govnt fell due in part to his gambling on appeal to the nation only to find increasing Citizen disatisfaction with its policies; much the same can be said for the reasons for Wilson going 'early' to the Poll to gain his 2nd Lab Govnt (he gambled & won on the assumption the unpopularity of the Tory opposition had increased), and, it can be argued Heath took a similar gamble and that time it didn't pay-off which let Wilson & Lab in for a 3rd Govnt.
Obviously, no single factor can ever be proven as the clincher, but if the 'Falklands factor' didn't enable Thatcher's early return to the Polling booth and re-election with a 100 seat majority then the UK Citizens' were plainly a far deeper bunch than any of us imagine!
Yes, in a strictly 'political' sense, it is a rare event, nevertheless, it is entirely feasible and has its place in the 'democratic' process of most European Nations.
Perhaps 'obliged to consider' the option of resigning is more appropriate and I should have made clear 'politicians' of every persuasion use and abuse that privilege of going to the Electorate for endorsement-mandate of policies.
All that aside: It simply does not exist as a practicable political opportunity for either MEPs or Citizens within the anti-democratic EU! The EU Parliament is as solidly in-place as any Soviet Union congress and with very nearly as much authority and power. Also, like the former Soviet Union, it has a subservient supreme Law Court that effectively negates any National sovereignty.
In my eyes: The fact the EU is nowhere near as clumsy (as the USSR) or thuggish in the use of its arrogant abuse of power does not make it any less a danger in its erosion of the Citizens' Rights and responsibilities.
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As a kid I remember my father telling me how he practically held his breath all the way from Piraeus to the Gulf Of Aden, terrified the Ship would turn round and take him back to Greece, a country he left with enormous relief almost 60 years ago.
He boarded that Ship at 19, after 2 years spent working in Athens that left him with a fury and disgust at the inequities he saw around him, poor country girls emotionally, physically and sexually abused by those their unknowing parents had entrusted them to, the overriding pomposity & corruption of government and Religious officials, the absolute inability of a man to progress on his own merits. .
So; how much has really changed since then? How many decent Greeks have been driven out of the country by the same debilitating environment that obviously still infests the place?
Frankly I would have to agree with George Z; while I know there are many decent well meaning, hardworking people in Greece that want a better future for the Country I could not give a damn if the Greek nation state, in its present structure, went up in flames. Hell, I’d even throw gasoline onto the fire so that nothing was left, that something better might grow in its place.
They say it takes one to know one and sadly I’d have to agree. Knowing the mentality of too many Greeks, I think the N/W Europeans were fools thinking they could absorb regions like Greece / Southern Italy and that these people, who had no experience of stable, accountable government, and therefore no sense of public propriety, would act like Germans or Dutchmen given the same freedoms.
Calling a spade a spade, Greece is not European, not in the sense that most readers would assume; that is a liberal democracy borne out of the Reformation & Enlightenment. Greece is a country at war with itself; where Western values jostle with a prevailing Eastern mindset that is a legacy of its Turkish / Byzantine past.
Many Greeks would hate to hear this, but I would consider many residents of Istanbul more Western / Cosmopolitan in outlook than many Greeks I know, who like Vassili (can I call you Bill? No? Too bad. . . , you’re Bill from now on) act like spoilt children who’ve suddenly been told they have to work for a living, professional victims with a highly developed persecution complex who cannot look at themselves objectively in the mirror; i.e. I have no faults, if my reflection looks bad it’s the mirror’s fault right?
Bill and many others like him think the world owes them a living because they’re Greek. . “Reality Check at Counter 4???”
In my 20’s I remember, after working 2 years in the UK; trying to find an Engineering job in Greece like a mate of Dutch background had in Holland. I found that there were basically zero jobs to be found in the Private sector in Greece, the only positions advertised were “figurehead” research roles at Universities, which you had to have connections to get.
Disappointed I returned home in 1996 and re-applied for an extension to my Greek Passport so I could return to the UK to work. After beating my head against the wooden skull of the Greek Public service I gave up after ~ 12 months.
To those of you that have been “there” you won’t be too surprised to hear that, long after I’d forgotten about it, one day, out of the blue, in 2003. . .I received a call from the Greek Consulate called and was told to come pick it up . . .
Think that’s funny? It gets better. Picking up the document I was advised by a very self-important consular hack, how lucky I was to have finally been “awarded” the Passport and what an “honour” it was. When I had the temerity to suggest that maybe 7 years was an excessive time to wait for a document I was roundly abused by this idiot, for daring to criticize the Greek State. . .
I took the Passport home and put it in my Filing cabinet. It expired in 2008. I never used it again, (though it’s possible I took it out once or twice, to wipe my a__ with. . .)
Poor old Greece; it takes itself so seriously too. . .
Though it’s heartening to see there a guys like George Z with their heads screwed on, there are still far too many ignorant “Bills”; by-products of an insular, backward looking and technically moribund educational system that has totally failed the Country and helped turn it into what it is now; excess baggage, that an increasingly embattled Europe, struggling to meet the challenge of the rising Eastern Superpowers, can no longer afford.
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Re, ".. tread carefully.."
Ooh, I am worried!
Re, "..(my) utopian vision.. lost innocence.."
Hmm, fairly sure you are unfamiliar with my contributions!
Re, "..Bulgaria.. EU took fright.."
Dammit, apologies, I did weep from laughter!
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I am a UK born citizen living in Greece for the past 20 years and have witnessed life here in full colour! However, people must realise this is a country and real live people live in it! It's not a giant monopoly game where each player can try to skim off what it can on the backs of the hard working population.Let me assure you there are many here who work 2-3 jobs just to survive as they need to pay for the basics which are not sufficiently provided by the state due to constant skimming of funds.Furthermore not everyone is striking and many people are very aware of the international coverage and wish to put their best foot forward.As always it's media representation and international preconceptions that lead to a very negative picture when positive action and support is needed to encourage the Greeks to change for their own benefit.Plus the exploiters need to be held responsible for their actions. It is becoming increasingly clear that this is a game played on many levels and the carrion are swooping in to pick the bones of Greece and any other countries that may fall weak; those bankers are out again to make money on risky bonds- but who saw the chance and pushed Greece over the edge?
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#157. cool_brush_work
I’d like to start with a thank you to Yannis in #168. It is a most informative posting and to the subject, namely the present problems in Greece.
You are of course free to tell everybody what your idea of a democracy is, and how you evaluate this political system. We will just have to realise that there are a variety of models. Add to this that you are making judgements about my understanding of democracy, and distorting what I have written, or if necessary what I have not written at all, and it is clear why I must keep it short.
Crucial to a democracy is that the legislative period is limited, and that it is followed by a general election. In some countries the legislative period is a fixed period that can be shortened only if an Armageddon appears. In other countries it can be shortened according to more or less complicated procedures. In some countries the voters must participate in the general election, in other they can stay at home if they so wish.
I assume everybody here realises that between elections there are polls, and they influence politicians, as does the continuing public debate. The political structure in democracies also varies, so that a comparison makes a very complex picture.
I think we should refer interested to handbooks on the matter.
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176.
My apologies - I see your confusion now.
See, this is not a school yard. This was a forum for adults - Daddy will be cross when he finds out.
Come back when you've grown some chest hair.
As for my familiarity with your posts, why would I want to be - I've a life to lead.
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Apperntly the US Fed are going to look at the Goldman Sachs loan that has been one of the loans that it is feared the Greek governmet might default on.
Definitively an example of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. The Fed, on behalf of the USA (to maintain some degree of ethical control) and on behalf of the citizens of Greece should have already had close oversight of Goldman Sachs offshore/global lending operations.
As ever, the US Governemt probably gains so much tax revenue from Goldman Sachs that they, the US Government(as it is with all nations that have a banking industry), preferred the Fed to not look too closely at big tax-generating machines like Goldman Sachs.
It is all far too late - Goldman Sach reputation is damaged, the US Banking Industry is yet again seen as putting money before ethics and the Greeks have got screwed even if they bent over and asked for it from Goldman Sachs!
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168. At 3:28pm on 25 Feb 2010, Yannis wrote:
" ... What does Greece have? Sea, sun, a Med climate ... "£
EUpris: It always surprises me that there are not any sun-powered desalination plants in hot countries adjacent to the sea. Maybe there are and I just don't know it. Any comments, please.
" ... Greece should focus on Green Economy ... Agribusiness (thanks to the climate, everything can be organic!"
EUpris: I think you have a point there! I try to buy only organic vegetarian food and only organic vegan wines and/or beer. I have seen very little from Greece. I have searched British supermarket shelves in search of Samos wine, which I used to buy in Germany and found none. I don't know if they do an organic and vegan version, if so then somebody please let me know. Ladies like it a lot. And if they don;t do it, is ther something similar coming from Greece?
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Yannis wrote:
"1C) Combat tax evasion. Enough with the so-called black economy. Nobody seems to declare what he/she earns. So a digitalised cross-checking system needs to be put in place where assets under ownership will tell what is missing from the income declaration forms. No rocket science here. I am sure Sweden or Germany could help if in luck of ideas. To be fair to the current government, they are planning to pass in a few weeks time a tax reform which is addressing much of the issue."
EUpris: "Digitalised cross-checking system" sounds too complicated to me. What about higher property taxes with a reduction based on the income tax you pay in Greece and a tax-free allowance based on need e.g one bedroom for each child or adult? Maybe foreigners with property should pay more tax in Greece and the UK. Their property maintains its value because of the organs of the state - police, courts, military etc.
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The International Herald Tribune has details on the bets some bankers take against Greece. These actions aggrevate the problem, rather then help solving it. I still sympathize with a statement Charles de Gaulle made in 1966 (the policy of France is not made at the stock market), but reality is different now, unfortunately.
Proposals for a core Eurozone/Federation consisting of Germany, France and the Benelux were floated in 1994 by German politicians Lamers and Schauble. These were discussed but not acted upon. One of the reasons could have been that Germany would have dominated it economically (the Dutch guilder was strongly linked to the D-mark because Rotterdam is the natural harbour for the Ruhr area).
Later in the 1990s there was a lot of discussion about the 'Club Med' countries (now PIIGS - Ireland) making it into the Euro. When Italy saw the Euro was taken seriously by the others, they all of a sudden made the criteria. Greece did the same later on, using the methods we now know. Shrinking the current Eurozone back to a size as discussed in these 1994 proposals or variations thereof seems difficult.
As for Greece, it will take time to build up a tax collection system as robust as those in the core Eurozone. Since 'being Greek' has almost nothing to do with the Greek State (it is a cultural attitude) it will require some rethinking. This will not be helped by the current attitudes of some (young) German contributors who claim there is no link between Germany and Greece except for the Euro (e.g. #79). The whole EU project is about bringing peace and reconciliation between people in Europe so as to avoid wars such as World War 1 and 2, which were due to the 'German problem', using economic cooperation as a means. Should the current crisis lead to increased nationalism, the EU project will be defeated, and young Germans should understand this fully.
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183. At 7:46pm on 25 Feb 2010, smroet wrote:
" ... The whole EU project is about bringing peace and reconciliation between people in Europe so as to avoid wars such as World War 1 and 2, which were due to the 'German problem', using economic cooperation as a means. Should the current crisis lead to increased nationalism, the EU project will be defeated, and young Germans should understand this fully."
EUpris: That is your claim and an excuse which has recently been fashionable or the excuse which has been agreed upon by professional manipulators within the "EU" and probably passed on to the footsoldiers of the "EU"-Dictatorship at briefings.
I believe the "EU" is about megalomania and the attempt to create a Greater European Reich. Because so many "EU"-lovers are obsessed with integration common sense has repeatedly been thrown out of the widow as in the building of the Channel Tunnel.
Either way, we in the UK were promised a referendum which we did not get, which 80 to 82% wanted and in which 70% wanted to say NO. 77% of Germans wanted a referendum but did not get one. The judges of the German constitutional court got to vote on it but the ordinary German did not. You cannot expect Germans ore Brits to do anythig but hate your "EU" after that.
Far from bringing peace your "EU" could result in wars of independence and could give a military apparatus to people who are totally unsuited to having power as the Lisbon rubbish has shown and who occupy posts in an organisation which is totally and utterly sick and illegitimate.
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183. At 7:46pm on 25 Feb 2010, smroet wrote:
" ... As for Greece, it will take time to build up a tax collection system as robust as those in the core Eurozone. ..."
EUpris: Their systems are not that robust either. I have heard a number of comments indicating a substantial black economy in Austria and Germany.
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Re 175: Juxtaposed. I read your message and was quite amusing learning about your father leaving Greece in relief. Having read your message my first question would be:
You said:
As a kid I remember my father telling me how he practically held his breath all the way from Piraeus to the Gulf Of Aden, terrified the Ship would turn round and take him back to Greece, a country he left with enormous relief almost 60 years ago. He boarded that Ship at 19, after 2 years spent working in Athens that left him with a fury and disgust at the inequities he saw around him…
I say:
Nobody said the situation was good. 60 years back, we had the worst civil war in Europe where more people died than the WWII and WWI battles together – for your information. Guess who had armed the communists! Was it Greeks? Well surprise no! You father was obviously of left-wing approach, probably either a Skopjan-related Slavo-bulgarian, or a irredentist communist which makes him the least to judge as himself, at least ideologically, had been exactly part of the problem. We know the communist role in the WWII, it was equally poisonous if not more than that of the few pro-british generals. Paid and armed by the British they pretended to do resistance to Germans but in reality sabotaged the general effort and started in 1943 the civil war. Unfortunately many valiant young resistance fighters – like my grandfather – got intermingled with the communists without knowing what this was all about and found themselves in the civil war. My grandfather refused to accept the bulgarisation of our dear Macedonia and communists hunted him, managed to murder his best mate and he had to take up in the mountains his family – my father, a child back then lived in the mountains a period of three years through famine and cold.
You said:
So; how much has really changed since then? How many decent Greeks have been driven out of the country by the same debilitating environment that obviously still infests the place?
I say:
Did you ever do any effort to reasily WHY is there that environment? Instead of just swearing it would be good to have your opinion as to WHY. I doubt you are in position to expand more on the WHY.
You said:
Frankly I would have to agree with George Z; while I know there are many decent well meaning, hardworking people in Greece that want a better future for the Country I could not give a damn if the Greek nation state, in its present structure, went up in flames. Hell, I’d even throw gasoline onto the fire so that nothing was left, that something better might grow in its place.
I say:
You hatred for the country here is obvious. Not only you are not interested to know why the situation was bad, but you just want its destruction. Your mention about the “nation” is obvious that deep inside you hate the Greeks. Why then do you come here in this discussion to say so? Youtube is full of nice hate videos to do so, here we have a serious discussion.
You said:
Calling a spade a spade, Greece is not European, not in the sense that most readers would assume; that is a liberal democracy borne out of the Reformation & Enlightenment. Greece is a country at war with itself; where Western values jostle with a prevailing Eastern mindset that is a legacy of its Turkish / Byzantine past.
I say:
The usual bull’s waste. Greece is Greece. We never cared how you want to define it. It has nothing to do with Turkish since Turkish are a very young nation constructed out of the Ottoman Empire’s fidels (their vast majority converts of not more than 400 years) only 90 years ago. Reformation and enlightenment occurred at a time we were busy getting liberated out of the most backward Empire ever in human history – one that you seem to admire by the way. You really are the least specialist in what is “Europe”, thus your judgement remains of no interest.
You said:
Many Greeks would hate to hear this, but I would consider many residents of Istanbul more Western / Cosmopolitan in outlook than many Greeks I know
I say:
Yes yes…. Turks from Istanbul, you mean those that when you start a talk about the successive genocides of Minor Asia committed by the Turks they first beat you up, then they call the police to get you in prison – you will be judged after some 6 months and will serve 4,5 years to complete the 5 years imprisonment which is the standard punishment for insulting Turkishness. I can see why you admire them.
You said:
In my 20’s I remember, after working 2 years in the UK; trying to find an Engineering job in Greece like a mate of Dutch background had in Holland. I found that there were basically zero jobs to be found in the Private sector in Greece, the only positions advertised were “figurehead” research roles at Universities, which you had to have connections to get.
I say:
I have worked in 3 major EU countries apart Greece and currently am between Paris, Brussels and London. I never saw the power of connections any less important here in north west Europe. I saw no poor getting any good position and saw no rich man’s son getting lost. Same in US. Ask any American and he will tell you that the bad student with the good connections starts with a first job that is at a level that the good student with no connections will have after 15-20 years. The difference between Greece, France and USA is that Greece is a small jar with less honey and so the one with the spoon will take a large part. USA is a huge jar with tons of honey so if one uses a spoon to take some it will make virtually no difference.
You said:
Disappointed I returned home in 1996 and re-applied for an extension to my Greek Passport so I could return to the UK to work. After beating my head against the wooden skull of the Greek Public service I gave up after ~ 12 months. To those of you that have been “there” you won’t be too surprised to hear that, long after I’d forgotten about it, one day, out of the blue, in 2003. . .I received a call from the Greek Consulate called and was told to come pick it up . . . Think that’s funny? It gets better. Picking up the document I was advised by a very self-important consular hack, how lucky I was to have finally been “awarded” the Passport and what an “honour” it was. When I had the temerity to suggest that maybe 7 years was an excessive time to wait for a document I was roundly abused by this idiot, for daring to criticize the Greek State. . .
I say:
It usually takes me 5 days to issue my new passport in Greece. I compare that with British who need much more than that – frankly the passport service in Greece works much better. Please explain more on your case – what was the problem of not being able to get a passport? If you are really a Greek, for Greeks being born elsewhere and having other passports, the procedure is long as one has to bring papers of parents and such and so on. Would you think that in any other country it would be faster? You are wrong.
You said:
I took the Passport home and put it in my Filing cabinet. It expired in 2008. I never used it again, (though it’s possible I took it out once or twice, to wipe my a__ with. . .)
Poor old Greece; it takes itself so seriously too. . .
I say:
Hmmm… you take yourself more seriously so what is your point there?
You said:
Though it’s heartening to see there a guys like George Z with their heads screwed on, there are still far too many ignorant “Bills”; by-products of an insular, backward looking and technically moribund educational system that has totally failed the Country and helped turn it into what it is now; excess baggage, that an increasingly embattled Europe, struggling to meet the challenge of the rising Eastern Superpowers, can no
longer afford.
I say:
It is the educational system you swear that – despite its known weaknesses – has produced an amazing output of top scientists spectacularly out of balance with the 0,000% of the Greek population in the global population. Modern Greece produced more top scientists, doctors, poets and philosophers in the last 200 years than the country you grew up produced since the dawn of history – and there I do not even add the population co-relation.
My position normally is not to answer to such messages. But I found this one particularly amusing – particularly when this guy represents something that has nothing to do with Greece.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8536630.stm
Nigel Farage makes the front page because he was rude about van Rumpoy or whatever his name is.
The 80+% of Brits who wanted a referendum get ignored because they are too polite.
It just goes to show that we have to be more aggressive towards the "EU"-Dictatorship.
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Just to verify georgez's comments it's the private sector that works directly within companies- and so cannot hide their earnings!- rather than individually that pay the majority of taxes.Their earnings are savaged by the opportunity to get some taxes and to support a failing health care system .The public sector rarely pays out due to the fact that the majority earn an "official" salary lower than the tax limit, BUT earn much more due to a selection of bonuses which bolster their salaries and are not taxable.Apparently there has even been a bonus available for those who have not had a chance to claim a bonus through the year! Plus many of them have more than 1 position and claim a number of salaries, of which perhaps they may attend 1-if that!Most of these positions have been given for political support. Then there are those who have their own companies and declare only the bare minimum whilst claiming practically all outgoings as company costs, ie cars, furniture, entertaining etc. There are those who live in villas in the most expensive ares of Athens, with 3+ cars, private education for their kids and yet up until now have never been made accountable for how they maintain all this. Hopefully this will change, as will the permanent positions for a hugely overpopulated civil service which seems to specialise in not assisting anyone who has any real need of them. Time for creativity-which the culture of civil service permanence has strangled, the Greeks are an amazingly educated and motivated people and there is an incredible amount of money here owned by a few high-powered families- perhaps it's time for them to invest in their country and give back to the people what they have squeezed out of them.The cost of living here is incredibly high what with all the backhanders for decent health care, eduction etc, plus food, clothing and other items are unnecessarily high in cost. One hopes that this government will create a New Greece which can support the majority rather than the minority and that those who have kept Greece down will finally give in and accept that in this day and age shady dealings can no longer rule. This would be hugely assisted if the profiteers of the crisis in general and those who keep sniping at Greece could just back down and the world in general recognise that supporting one another will lead to a happier future for all. Too ideal perhaps, but one can dream and hope for a better world for future generations.
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Farage calmer here, but he wouldn't have got this interview if he hadn't been rude in the so-called parliament of the so-called "EU".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8536000/8536381.stm
I do regret that he denigrated Belgium.
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EU prisoner. I am not any hot pro-EU nor any particular anti-EU supporter. Comming from a smaller country, there is no illusion of who governs the country (and it is not us), so beloning to the EU is the least of evil. I view the EU as a thing of the future, not the future 10 years but 30 and 40 years, at a time when individual countries like Germany or France if going alone will be a little and probably insignificant corner on the earth.
BUT I cannot but agree with you that ALL European countries should had held referendums over the Lisbon treaty after having held 1 month of proper explanations by professionals over to what positive and what negative this treaty will bring.
I would too vote NO but for reasons very different to your - I view the Lisbon treaty as having all the trivialities such as social thingies, justice thingies (as-if...) and other such mundane and lacking the most basic that must be the binding thingie among all these disparate countries: COMMON DEFENSE. Super-states do not start from all those hippy thingies the EU is currently on, they start from the common defense thingie. All the rest are trivialities.
However, at the end of the day there were even more basic things than the Lisbon treaty that affect much more our everyday lifes and which were decided on national rather than EU level and for which there was never any referendum. In fact it should had been a standard demand of European people each in their own country, to organise frequent referendums on basic things that affect life - and these are not so much related to financial but mostly to social issues.
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Mthiasen
Re #178
Thanks for letting me know your view in some what more detail. As ever it was enlightening, except on the matter at hand in my query to you!
Just how do the German Citizen reveal this all pervasive 'support' for the German Government policies on the EU, EUro, EUro-zone etc.?
Apologies for 'distortions' etc.: I'm sure a fine fellow like you never makes that sort of error - - only, even allowing for 'polls' in-between General Elections, just how does 40% German participation in EP Elections amount to a massive endorsement - - go on, I know you want to tell us all?
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"The whole EU project is about bringing peace and reconciliation between people in Europe so as to avoid wars such as World War 1 and 2, which were due to the 'German problem', using economic cooperation as a means." (smroet, 183)
This raises a huge number of talking points - enough for a lecture course or blog in its own right! Among them are:
1) What analysis did the originators of the EU project do into the causes of wars? Yes the 2 World Wars could be said, at a "headline" level, to have been caused by German aggression and territorial ambition. But these are not the only causes of wars (or terrorism); others include peoples or nations having a perception that they are not being dealt with fairly or democratically, or that political structures are being imposed on them regardless of their wishes.
2) Why has Russia (as far as I know) never been considered as a candidate for involvement in this EU project? Russia has always been a major player in European politics and wars, both as victim and aggressor (in 1939-45 it was both).
3) I think most people are in favour of peace and economic cooperation (the latter is worthwhile in its own right, not just as a means to avoiding war). But neither of these are specific to Europe; they apply globally. This is something that has always puzzled me about the "EU project": why confine these noble ideals to Europe? After World War 2 a number of institutions were set up to promote worldwide peace and economic cooperation; particularly the United Nations and the World Bank. Did the originators of the EU project consider these institutions inadequate to the achievement of peace and economic cooperation within Europe? If so, why?; and did they raise their concerns at the time?; and what efforts did they make to reform these institutions from within, such as to make them up to the task?
4) Has there been, or will there ever be, a checkpoint at which the risk of intra-European war is assessed? In particular Germany has changed hugely since the days of the Kaiser and the National Socialists, and is very unlikely now to initiate a war. And if this risk assessment takes place and the likelihood of a European war is deemed negligible, will the EU project be considered to have succeeded in its objective and therefore closed down?
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Finally, perhaps many of you don't realise how unaware a (possibly) large part of the Greek population is of what possibilities lie outside the Greek borders. I myself have only come to realise this having mastered a good level of spoken Greek now and so able to talk to Greeks. I have had a number of conversations with supermarket workers, cleaners and other low paid jobs, who do not have the means or time to travel and have no experiences outside Greece or the country they have immigrated from to "better" their lives. They are stunned to hear of health systems that treat the clientele with respect and no secret payoffs; an education system that does not require "frontisterio" ( private tutoring schools which the majority of Greek children have to attend after school to be able to attain the exacting standards of the examinations). These frontisterio also employ a large number of unemployed teachers and bolster many working teachers salaries, therefore an effective schooling system is not viable. On hearing of less bureaucracy,but more effective bureaucracy they are speechless, but have had no hope of attaining this. Only through opening people's eyes to the possibilties that the proposed changes could bring to Greece, will they be able to embrace them. Those who have the financial means will always manage to survive and so why should they encourage this change if it's not to their advantage. Perhaps others need to take the initiative.
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Mickalus
Re #179
Oh dear, oh dear, have I upset your serious mind with my little innocuous banter!?
If I had time to regret I would have no life, would I!?
Come now: If you were offended, I do apologise, but in all honesty the gist of your comment #173 was extraordinarily unitentionally funny.
E.g. "Object 1..' and 'Object 2.." !
Quote, "Persons are intelligent - - people are stupid.."
Well, as your EU and National 'Politicians' are persons/people what makes you place anymore trust in their "..gumption to stand up and say.." anything of more note or value than the Citizens in the "..herd.." you tend to denigrate? Afterall, there is no finer example of a herd mentality than a National or supra-National Parliament as a collective of braying ninnies given the right circumstances; the plight of Greece being a case in point for much useless pontificating hyperbole by our illustrious leadership/s!
Quote, "..EU is not yet equipped to deal with the economic non-compliance of its members.."
Well, if you, as a very pro-EU contributor want to write and admit Brussels set-up an entire international Currency without putting in place adequate Fiscal measures to ensure probity by the 'zones's' Membership, then I am only too pleased to see this refreshing candour on the inadequacy of the EU!
Though I'm bound to admit I laughed as I had an inkling you did not recognise the truth you were admitting to!
And, as for '..Bulgaria..' as the example of EU '..fright..' it just tickled that part other comments had not reached!
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Re:188 I admire your optimism. Mind you I am not any particular supporter of any party (really, do not even try to classify me) but I just I wonder how do you wish to see this Papandreou-grandson government creating a New Greece? When I hear this "New" is when I start worrying most. Wasn't enough for more than half a century the 3-generations of Papandreou governments? Wasn't the Papandreou family a major responsible for the situation in Greece? Especially the middle one, the one that damaged the country like few politicians did. And how now do you expect his son, an incapable man (that is what even close PASOK members admit themselves!) whose only success had been that he was born in the Papandreou family and holding a US-passport finanlly becoming after a lot of soap-opera a prime minister, something that Greeks always knew he would become despite their own will (since not even PASOK supporters wanted him there...)... so really how do you expect him to do any better.
Are we calling the criminal to make the investigation over the crime scene?
Bdsm I am really with you, when you say that we have to liberate the healthy powers of this country that have for long been stangled by the existing situation. But how on earth will we do that? With PASOK on govenrment? Is this some kind of joke?
When Japanese came to Greece wanting to invest in the country (NISSAN, building of roads and railways etc.), the PASOK government fought back with amazing ferocity... poor Japanese left thinking "this country is unreal!", happy not having anything to do with Greece. Now once again, the PASOK government - again led by yet another Papandreou, it tries to shut off all openings with the Russians and the Chinese done during the previous (anyway failed) government, the only people that currently want to open real business with Greece. Do you realise what is currently being refused to Greeks? It is not am having any over-expectations about the Russian-Chinese collaboration but down to the basics this can be the kickstart as historically and geopolitically that is how Greece always became rich and that is the only way Greece can ever become financially healthy again. All the rest is just trivial: Greece is a maritime country that can only develop by being in the epicenter of Black-Sea Mediterranean and Asia-Mediterranean trade. With its parallel moves, the governement not only seems not to believe in that but they actually fight back. What is the problem of Papandreou with Greece bying gaz directly from Russia? What is the problem with Greece opening 1-2 ports to Chinese?
How do you expect the much awaited market development to happen? I am really curious to know.
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#191. cool_brush_work
You asked: Just how do the German Citizen reveal this all pervasive 'support' for the German Government policies on the EU, EUro, EUro-zone etc.?
It is presumably generally known that there is a considerable consensus about the EU policy in Germany, and that it is supported by a vast majority of the members of parliament. (It should be clear now that they represent the voters.) The EU policy enjoys a similar support among the German media.
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Nik, in the last 2 years we have finished off with China documenting a small but stupid land pass over to them, that happened during Perestroyka when mad Gorbachyov was surrending everything :o)))) - and , how to say, China got now exit to the Pacific first time in the 1,000-several thousamnds' :o))) of the Chinese history. They built up there a big port. I don't know how operational it will be, but they put high stakes on it as shipping line out of China for their multiple goods.
I don't know how it affects Chinese interest for ports in Greece. Before China used for cargo exit our Vladivostok.
We were suspending the final formalities very long, about what was promised to China by Gorbavhyov (a Declaration of Intentions) but finally gave it up as it was indeed promised 20 yrs ago.
How it affects Greece positively or negatively, you are after all the world's shippers :o))) you will have to figure out yourself.
Just an additional data to you.
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Austrian Radio website reports Gaddafi calls for Holy War against Switzetrland.
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@ CornwallCoastPath #192
I am NOT an expert on this, and would not be able to give a lecture course, but here are some considerations which might enter into it.
1. My understanding is that continental western Europe suffered from the antagonism between France and Germany after the Carolingian empire was split up. This led eventually to French interventions into Germany (30 years war, various excursions by Louis XIV, Napoleon's army defeating Prussia in 1806), and German interventions in France (1870-71, 1914, 1940). To stop this, and to bring ordinary people from different countries in touch with each other in a different way rather than in armies trying to kill each other, the EEC was set up. The reconciliation effort was consolidated by the French-German friendship treaty signed in 1963.
2. Since the Cold War was going on at that time, Russia was not considered. Russia became communist in 1917, and declared default on its sovereign debt, wiping out a lot of savings from French investors. The story of these "emprunts russes" is still not entirely settled.
3. The larger institutions with wider reach in the world are mainly handled at an 'official' level, principally between governments. The EEC started with the sharing of resources on coal and steel, and quickly constructed a common agricultural policy (CAP). A common defence policy was vetoed by France in 1954. Even now, the CAP represents a substantial part of the EU budget. Agriculture is about food production and consumption, so everyone is concerned.
4. In the 1980s, the point about the realisation of the initial goal was indeed discussed. Usually, the choice is then between dreaming up new goals justifying the continuation of the 'project', or considering it completed and thus to be abandoned. There are in such situations usually people who would like to keep up the organization by expanding the initial goals (this happened with NATO after the cold war was won, and leads now to the problem of participation in an out-of-area effort in Afghanistan, cf. Gavin's previous blog). Moreover, at that time, part of the EEC problem was still the division of Germany. In any case, new goals were set, such as the unique market. After German unification, the euro was instituted, and the Schengen border control arrangement was made. Enlargement became a goal in inself.
The new EU is thus a far cry from what the EEC was initially about. In the early EEC, France wanted a 'Europe of nations', while in particular in the Benelux the enthousiasm for 'European integration' was high. Enlargement was partly prepared by association treaties, one of them with Turkey (Ankara agreement in 1963) which is now construed as a promise of future Turkish membership of the EU (despite several coups d'etat and military regimes thereafter, and the Cyprus occupation). The current problems within the Eurozone highlight several possible construction faults, most of them arising from pressures to conclude deals in 'marathon' negociations where the performance of politicians is judged on the advantages they bring for their home country. Even with six members in a limited EEC this was already difficult. The most visible EU advances (Euro, Schengen) are not shared by all. Goals are not shared anymore, and this leads to confusing situations. However, it is not clear that one can declare the EU project successfull and then close it down: it may be that the original goal will be compromised in the process.
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194. At 10:08pm on 25 Feb 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
_________________________________
Endlessly happy to provide your humour in whatever form tickles your fancy.
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Austrian Radio website also reports "EU" pie squared off with Switzerland.
It is always good to annoy the "EU". Well, almost always.
What has annoyed the "EU" on this occasion is that Switzerland has banned
188 Libyans from entering Switzerland. Italy claims that Switzerland is endangering the future of the Schengen zone. (EUpris: What a crying shame!)
Italiian Interior Minister Roberto Maroni said this to the press.
What an old chestnut!
Reportedly, the background to this is that if somebody is banned from one Schengen country, he is banned from the all.
(EUpris: Wakey, wakey Mr. Maroni!)
Maroni stated: "If we accept this principle, it is the end of Schengen."
EUpris: So why did his country agree to this principle in the first place?
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CornwallCoastPath, @192
"Why has Russia (as far as I know) never been considered as a cand "idate for involvement in this EU project? Russia has always been a major player in European politics and wars, both as victim and aggressor(in 1939-45 it was both)."
Well, smroet @199 has already answered. But it seems to me it's either not about war avoidance at all, the EU idea, or - if about war avoidance, then - in particular those wars between France and Germany.
There is a third thought as well :o))) that is, when in the EU construction process, the builders didn't believe deep in their hearts :o))) that Russia is real likely to be of annoyance again. And still are in the same mind.
___________
Now, smroet, what's that, about tsar Russia debt to France? Don't be so greedy! :o)))
I understand the idea is attractive of course, as all ideas about collecting old debts pending for a long time :o), but I would say we very very much turned everything upside down in 1917, and de-cried tsar and monarchy arrangement, and all arrangements else there only were incl. religion and what not. How to say :o))) Real much was thrown out -in order to get rid of that one debt to France! :o)))
You'd hardly recognise the place after the Bolshevist coup. Not a fake turn-over (to get rid of the debt :o))) - but a real somersault.
And all the people who borrowed and governed the country were wiped out.
Romanovs, you know, hard to claim any thing from them, post the revolution. To put it mildly :o)))
Besides, the debt arose from 1st worl war expenses, namely we were borrowing from France to fight the First world war, and were buying arms from the same very France, for the money. Fought your side, for a second. For no particular reason, at that (Russians never figured it out why we did) - because Russia was not attacked. And all wars when we aren't attacked are very unpopular wars in Russia, considered to be a total madness and waste of lives and money and everything. Stupid.
I know of course Europe was saved from Germany by Mavrelius :o))), in the first world war, flying ovver down as usual and sorting the business for Europeans who got stuck again :o))). Still, until that happy day happened, Russia contributed to the First world war hell of a lot of effort, and - same as with the 2ndWW - and same un-recognised fact in the West - lost most lives in the 1st one. Five million (5).
The very fact entirely forgotten and wiped out of history, since we immediately after became the other side of the "barricades".
So, I know it's a poor consolation, but may be it will console you still somehow that the French money did save French lives. In that debt.
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As a matter of fact this reminds me :o))) Mavrelius also wants 1 bln or 100 blns from us, forgot, he keeps re-calculating it into modern money, for the similar occasion - USSR debt to the USA, for fighting the 2nd world war and buying American armament.
Next time we'll try not to borrow from the thankfulk allies :o))), I promise.
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And overall I think it's wise of all to claim Russia's debts while powers in the country still last :o)))
Not waiting for the Romanovs or Stalin to disappear.
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@201 The Swiss should be commended for banning those 188 Lybians. (the battle between the Swiss and the capricious Lybians has been interesting to follow. I support the Swiss.)
Separately, if it harms schengen then surely european organized crime networks will be inadvertently affected and so the EU will find some way to salvage it. I mean, where are the hookers going to come from without it?
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And it's not from greediness, that Lenin backed off, on the debt to France. The coffers he inherited were empty, post war. Not a church mouse would find anything there :o))) A very, very bad debt.
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This entire Greek mess can be traced back to Bush and the Republicans. This is because their rather backward ideology of "less government" meant that no one was watching greedy Goldman Sachs and other US banks when they went to Greece and conducted shady deals with the Greek government to circumvent Euro rules. This led to the current crisis. To make it worse, the Greeks are trying to blame it on the Germans and bring-up the ghosts of World War II to tap into backwards nationalist sentiment. Fortunately, Goldman Sachs is currently under investigation in the US. Greeks got scr*wed by the American banks, end of story.
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WA, at least the British paid us back...even if it did take 70 years at 2% interest a year. By the time it was paid off, the money was all but worthless due to inflation. We gave them these rediculously generous terms because we didn't know how long it would take them to recover economically. Judging from their current circumstances compared to the end of WWII, I'd say we underestimated. They seem even more broke now than they were then :-)
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@ 183 who wrote:
"This will not be helped by the current attitudes of some (young) German contributors who claim there is no link between Germany and Greece except for the Euro (e.g. #79). The whole EU project is about bringing peace and reconciliation between people in Europe so as to avoid wars such as World War 1 and 2, which were due to the 'German problem', using economic cooperation as a means. Should the current crisis lead to increased nationalism, the EU project will be defeated, and young Germans should understand this fully."
Some days ago I read an article in French newspaper "Le Monde" where they claimed that since German reunification Germany lost much of it's interest in the european integration. French politicians were worried that Germany could go it's own way, that it would deal with Russia (about gas) and with China (import-export) on it's own without paying too much attention to it's neighbours.
We are a country of 82 million people, from Frankfurt where I live it takes me 7 hours to go to the North or the Baltic Sea and the same time to go to the Alps. This French article claimed that since reunification Germans were happy to live within their present frontiers. This country is big enough, I don't see the need to make it bigger via the EU. People from small EU-countries may see that different but hey, they should be happy, since 1990 we are a happy people happy to live within our present frontiers. There is no majority, neither in our federal parliament nor among the people that wants back the regions we gave to Poland after 1945. They can keep it and everybody is happy. It's okay. We are a threat to nobody for the first time in history, isn't that enough for you? What more do you expect from us? When Germany takes part in the european integration throughout Europe they shout that they don't want to become satelite states of Germany, when it does something on it's own (the gas pipeline from Russia for example) they also shout. Frustrating, isn't it?
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As I read the comments above from Greeks and other European and International commenters ; I see again the plight of Mediterranean countries as members of the EU .
The European Union , for reasons of its own engrandisment and credibility on the world stage , has offered an " Utopia " to poor southern European countries , if they will join the European Union .
Mediterranean countries were all poor , relying heavily on tourism as a major source of income . It has been assumed that as members of the EU , with equal opportunities for all Europeans having a common currency , that they will all become industrial and hard working like the Germans .
It is a grave mistake , a nonsense , to think that as members of the EU the people of these countries will change themselves and their way of life . Having their own currency which they could value up or down as necessary was essential to their way of life .
Although there are industrial and industrious pockets in Mediterranean countries , to a large extent they rank as developing countries , agrarian and poor . Under their own currencies that had much lower values than those of northern Europe , they were able to offer tourism inexpensively , to their great advantage . It is not fair to the people of these countries having prices be the same all over Europe and trying to create welfare and standards of living that are equal throughout the EU .
I live in Thailand , where there is much controversy about the way the country is governed and the direction in which it is going .
Thaksin Shinawatra , when he was Prime Minister , showed the people the possibility of more democracy as in the west . Thailand is a country with a very rich elite and the rest of the people comparatively poor or very poor . I am a supporter of Thaksin , currently living in exile after the 2006 Coup . He showed the people of the North and North East that they can stand up for themselves and fight for their rights .
In thailand the majority of business is in the hands of very few . Industry employs people from the North and Northeast paying them a pittance , scarcely enough to rent a room with bathroom-cubicle ; where they live with no furniture , sleeping on the floor ; with poor nutrition from food bought at local street stalls . There are no wellfare services , though Thaksin introduce a £0.60 flatrate charge for the very poor to see a doctor and have medication at the hospital .
If Thailand had wages like western countries , social services and social security ; it would greatly increase the cost of living making it impossible for the very poor to survive at all .
I see a very strong similarity between the situation of Greece , Italy , Spain and Portugal , to that of Thailand . People are not all Equal ; joining together in a European Union does not make them Equal .
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@WebAlice
As a rule you seldom make comments about the blog article. This is also the case in #202, so it was just accidentally that I caught an argument of the type that cannot be questioned and where you can always say that you are right, in other words considered as rhetoric it is not a particularly strong argument.
About the russian losses in wars and the historical memomy of it in the west you wrote:
The very fact entirely forgotten and wiped out of history, since we immediately after became the other side of the "barricades".
Berlin has, probably as the only city outside Russia, a huge memorial park (in Treptow) decorated with the typical heroic social realism of the Sovietunion in dimensions way beyond the human. It is one of things tourists in busses are looking at, also in the days of the cold war.
The boulevard that is - in the long perspective - connecting Berlin with Warsaw was rebuilt during the cold war. The style was Soviet architecture, as a matter of fact the name of the boulevard was for some time “Stalin Alle”, and the houses were a copy of the buildings of Stalingrad. I understand that this city now has another name, so as you see “wiping out of history” is a familiar phenomenon. I can assure everybody that the architecture of Stalin Alle (now Frankfurter Alle) is something special. It reminds us every day about the cold war.
Also in a small town east of Berlin (Muencheberg) you can find a major Soviet memorial conmemorating the war, and from the city of Berlin and all the way to the Polish border further 90 kilometres to the east there are war graveyards all over the place and if this was a private email I should attach photos of these things.
As you can imagine also in Poland, they have memories about these things. However they look at it with other eyes than the Germans since they were victims, but surely the commemoration continues in the eastern direction.
Any bibliographical research would of course prove that the Russian warfare has indeed not been wiped out of history, but ignorants are everywhere and that brings me back to my introduction to this.
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WA, the subject of public debt is a serious one. One of Greece's problems is the tense relationship with Turkey on account of the Aegean Sea and the application of the usual 12-mile rule there. Turkey sees a Greek application of this rule (which will turn the Aegean into a 'Greek lake') as a 'casus belli' i.e. a case for war. As a result, Greek defence spending is very high (more than 4% of GDP), and small disputes about e.g. the Imia island in 1996 can become a big issue.
This has led me to read the Treaty of Lausanne, which devotes a notable part to the settlement of Ottoman public debt (12 articles out of 143). In those times, such things were put into treaties properly, and there was no 'over the counter' trading by speculators about it.
The defaulting of Russia on (amongst other) French debt, while very understandable, brought an end to the French-Russian alliance concluded in the 1890s, which had as goal to force Germany to a two front war. A lot of French private savings went into the loans necessary to modernize tsarist Russia (arms, railways, chemical plants, mines, etc.), estimates are that they are currently worth around 100 billion euros. In 1998 France and Russia concluded an agreement to settle for 400 million dollars between the two states, but private investors (estimated at 316 000 or so), whose claims are not recognized by Russia, now have their eye on the cathedral of Saint Nicolas in Nice, which was attributed to the Russian state on 20 january 2010 by a court decision. Since Russia argued in this affair the continuity of the State (i.e. it considers itself as heritor of the tsars on this occasion) there may be a point...
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Olaf wrote:
"Who would lend money at 0% if he would thereby expose himself to losses from inflation? "
Yes, Olaf. the risk of loss through inflation. Cause by the printing of currency. Something greece can't do, you see.
With respect, you waffled on and said very little. It remains my conviction that interest is charged to compensate for the risk of its loss.
It doesn't make sense that one loses the opportunity of using money when one lends it out.
Think about it, olaf. Lending IS using it. How else are you going to use it? Eat it? You can't eat it. You can't drive it around the block. You can build a house with it.
There can't be any compensation for not having it if you lent it, because the whole point of any type of business is to circulate capital in order to reap a profit. It doesn't matter if you buy a taxi and drive it around or buy a house and rent it out or buy some goods and sell them at a mark up. Business is the process of putting capital out in the market and circulating it.
The only difference between money lending and other forms of business is that the money lender does almost nothing at all. They don't provide a service by selecting and maintaining goods. They don't have any store of expertise and advice about the world. Money lenders are not consultants.
All they have is money, and the only reason they have for lending it out is to make more.
The only service they provide is the risk of losing their money, and people who want to lend money without risk should consider how far you get driving a taxi cab without taking any risks whatsoever.
The people who bought greek bonds deserve to lose their dough, olaf. They deserve to be POOR. they deserve to LOSE ALL THEIR MONEY.
Because they took a risk in order to get more money for themselves, and they lost. Their raw greed clouded their judgement, and they made a miscalculation.
But instead of facing up to their responsibilities, the moneyed suits are holding the taxpayer to ransom once again.
I am so sick of hearing about people who lend money to governments complaining about their woes. There is far to much money influence in government, and it is about time it was dealt with by the criminal law. It is corruption, pure and simple. Corruption and theft from the taxpayer by the money lenders who can't face their own lack of competence.
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#209,
Wrongly informed Tortilein, you didn't "give" anything to Poland, Stalin told you what you could keep:)
Please try and get ar least one fact in this debate right.
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#203 WebAliceinwonderland,
Maybe next time borrow from the peope you fight against, it achieves two goals, they have less money to buy arms for themselves and also once you defeat them then you don't have to pay the debt back.
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#210 Huaimek,
The idea of the EU is not to make every nation the same as germany, the idea that each nation will add its own strength to the union, Germany making cars, etc. Finland making phones, Italy making fashion & design, Greece shiping things for those guys around the world and bring back to Europe other things, UK finance, France make cars and other engineering things, Spain make holidays and olive oil, Belgium - run the EU!! etc. So, because, everyone can not be like Germany, is not a reason to scrap the EU.
The EU what needs to do is integrate further so if it is to use one common strong currency, everyone within it borrows at the same rate and you don't have the scenario we have today where 16 countries that use the same currency have to borrow at 17 different rates. At, the very least it contradicts EU rules. in that a company that is based in country "A" can borrow money at lower rates than a company that is based in country "B".
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Viennese newspaper, Wiener Kurier reports tens of thousands of people from Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro staying illegally in the "EU" helped by the fact that they no longer need a visa.
Just imagine what it will be like when those countries
join the "EU" !!!!!!!!!
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To Web Alice
I used to do cover teaching in British schools. They are taught about the horrific Russian losses.
An English taxi driver recently told me that it was the Russians who won WWII not the British. He spoke at length about the tank battle at Kursk and sounded quite knowledgeable.
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216. At 08:37am on 26 Feb 2010, ChrisArta wrote:
#210 Huaimek,
"The idea of the EU is not to make every nation the same as germany..."
EUpris: You don't know that. Loads of people will give different takes on what it is about.
" ... each nation will add its own strength to the union ... Belgium - run the EU!! .."
EUpris: Belgium run the "EU" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Belgians can't run Belgiun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's like letting that shower in the "EU" run Greece when their own finances are a mess.
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@WA 145 @WA 162 (?) @WA 167
“Ill tired Cassandra. I can not any more. What for The Sun was shining, Alexandra, :o))))Just hundred years ago - it shined for all?”
Dearest Alice, I have never read the Mandelshtam verse, so I apologise for my hasty comment (@153). In a way, I am privileged to better understand you than the rest of the bloggers here for the simple reason that I am orthodox Slav like you and that my wife is from St.Petersburg.
To that matter, I feel divided; I mean that I am in two minds. The situation in Bulgaria does not differ much from that in neighbour Greece, in Slovakia, in Slovenia or in Romania. I am supposed to work hard in order to earn enough for my family and for myself. True, the living standards here are constantly rising but life has changed dramatically, I mean there is no much room for poetry, for fine arts, for theatre, even for literature… All this requires more free time, more money, and more…. spiritual “tuning”. It does not work any more here. My heart is pure Slavic that is to say it is more sentimental and less rational (just like yours!). But, my brains are less sentimental and more pragmatic. This is maybe the fundamental difference between us. I stick to the western standards of living and behaving with other people. You still live in your own world of poetry where there is little room for busyness and politics. I guess this particular feature of yours is the main reason why you enjoy the privileged position here of being always welcome among us, the humble bloggers from “outside Russia”. You just differ too much from anyone here with your continuous effort to assess every discussed topic from a very special view point (I mean your way of putting much feelings ranging from hatred to sincere admiration and love… with nothing in between!)
And I am happy to be among those who could better decipher your posts with the heart, not with the brains…(like the BBC stuff do!)
Once again, I apologise for my last comments.
Sofia, Febr. 26th 2010; Generalissimo
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#219 - Europris
That was a joke :))) I could not think of much else for the Belgians :)) maybe beer, but then the only one they export is not worth drinking :)))
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~221
Chocolates?
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Re212: Turkey is a rogue nation, no need to account their crimes of the 20th century and no need to mention what they are prepared both as a nation and as people (cos it is not just the army, it is a huge part of society that participates in the crimes and that includes both the fascist kemalists as well as the islamists). Ask any country neighbouring with Turkey (even muslim Syria, Iraq and Iran) and they will tell you that Turkey remains always the biggest problem in the area. It is not accidental that US used Turkey as its most close ally in the area giving the green light to anything that Turkey is on.
Considering the issue of 12-miles the main problem is that:
1) Greece cannot have full authority over its own land!!!
2) ... thus it goes withoutsaying that EU has not the power to apply authority over its own space!!!
Now people naively think that the above points' main negative effect is that Greece has to maintain a big for its size army. Well that is far from the truth. Greece being in the location it is, would anyway have to maintain a relatively big for its size army - that is not the most negative effect. The most negative is that Greece not having full authority:
1) It cannot exploit its strategic position in the Aegean to profit from the Black Sea-Mediterranean trade - that is not yet even developed partly thanks to Turkey too, a country "designed" (i.e. led by Britain in the past, US today) to try and stop any Russian commercial expansion to the south.
2) It cannot exploit the big oil reserves of the Aegean sea that lie in Greek sea space.
3) International investments have always a problem to invest in a country like Greece that has not even a full authority over its lands, which are eyed by its neighbour, Turkey, indirectly and often diretly supported by US (and UK, an EU country!) while the rest of the EU, and namely Germany and France remain pathetically silent.
Frankly all that talk about the WWII between Greek and German politicians is just plain rethoric. Germany, true never paid us what it really owed profiting from the US/British support while we were instructed how to do a civil war (remember? communists were armed and paid by the British!). But we would really appreciate it if they could support a bit better our case today.
What do I mean by support? You think bailing? You think getting free money? No way, there is no free money, we want nothing of that. What we want is full support to the Greek just cause of applying its full rights over its own lands, of rendering Balkans a stable region (i.e. not support muslim extremisl, albanian extremism, FYROMian ridiculous propaganda - something that EU countries fail to do blatantly and in particular countries like the UK and we wonder why).
At the end of the day what we say by support is ... at the very basic stop attacking us. When UK supports FYROM's good old Tito-ic offensive propaganda against Greece (because US told them so) it is an attack against Greece. Take into consideration that it is also an attack against Bulgaria, another EU country. We cannot go on forever with some EU countries giving more political support to rogue criminal countries like Turkey or artificial countries like FYROM who are on the offensive than EU members like Greece and Bulgaria.
That is the bottom line of the problem. The financial data is for the light hearted ones...
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Nik
Re #186
Fascinating and informative set-to between you 'greeks' (?).
Not wanting to get involved as have nowhere near your depth of local/national knowledge.
However, re, UK PASSPORTS: my previous Passport I went to the London Office and got it issued the same day. Even here in Finland I went down to Helsinki to the British Embassy-consulate with my application and they sent my new one within 7 days.
Was I lucky?
Any comments of other UK Citizens (home & abroad)?
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Mathiasen
Re #196
We have been here so many times, but it is from my point of view worth pricking the 'pro-EU' fantasy bubble, yet again.
Just so I don't inadvertently 'distort' your views: Quote, "..it is presumably generally known there is considerable concensus about the EU policy in Germany and that it is supported by the vast majority of the members of parliament. (It should be clear now they represent the voters). The EU enjoys a similar support among the German media.." End quote.
Oh well, that's alright then: Germany's Citizen Electorate has unbounded faith and interest in the European Union.
Only a tiny sort of, hardly worth mentioning really, intriguing little aside on this "..vast majority..": Well, I'll ask, as you are bound to have the answer.
If that support is as great as you maintain it is within Germany then could you account for these 2 results?
1994 Germany's EU Parliament Voter Turnout > 60.02% (EU-wide > 63%)
2009 Germany's EU Parliament Voter Turnout > 43.30% (EU-wide > 43%)
It is the sort of 'massive' support that leaves 57% of Germany's Electorate at home!
Curious that, don't you think!?
Now, I deliberately started from 1994 to 2009 because there are some interesting 'political' developments (i.e. the "..EU policy in Germany") that can only be taken into account by the German and EU Electorate from that EU Parliament Election:
1) Germany had been reunited, so the Turnout presumably reflected 'all' Germany Citizens.
2) Maastricht Treaty had been on the table since 1992.
3) Amsterdam Treaty 1999 inc. its declared intent to extend EU Citizens' rights and rsponsibilities had been in place for 10 years.
4) Then there were Nice and Lisbon to add to the mix: Expansion 'east', Schengen, EUro currency etc.
That is an awful lot of policy initiative by the EU which any reasonable person might conclude was being undertaken with rock solid Citizen support; afterall, the EU wouldn't carry out policy deliberately designed to alienate or switch-off the electorate, would it?
All presumably backed by that "..vast majority (German MPs).." and "..similar support among German media..".
Then we can take the words of EU Communication Commissioner Margot Wallstrom in 2007 who pronounced, "..the EU and broadcast media intend to make it (forthcoming EU Election) more interesting to the public.." and also said, ".. the purpose being to increase turnout in 2009..".
I don't know, maybe it's just silly old me, but, if Germany's Voter Turnout at EU Elections is an example of the EU enjoying massive 'concensus' and 'vast' political support plus a vigorous media input then what the hell is a poor, low support and turnout in a 'pro-EU' lobbyist's view!!!?
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The EU, the Euro and now the GBP!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is going on here who governs this world. The GBP is doing down now, not because the UK growth number were negative again but because analysts & the markets fear here in the UK we may have a hang parliament! And so what???? if we vote for it, what is it to the analysts? They can't analyse anything anyhow, they just contribute to global warming with all the hot that comes out of their mouths.
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ironfranco;
"My heart is pure Slavic that is to say it is more sentimental and less rational (just like yours!)."
Before you gloat too much about it, consider that when it comes to irrationality, the people who invented and run the EU have you beat ten ways to Sunday. Nobody is more irrational than they are.
"But, my brains are less sentimental and more pragmatic. This is maybe the fundamental difference between us. I stick to the western standards of living and behaving with other people."
This is because you foolishly cling to the vain hope that somehow this will improve your life. But as Turandot told Calaph in the answer to her first riddle, hope..."espiranza"...leads to disappointment and disillusionment. What she left out was the ensuing bitterness, resentment, and cynicism about life. WA is smarter than you are. She understands this instinctively and shuns it. From a distance she sees its absurdity and just laughs at it.
"You still live in your own world of poetry where there is little room for busyness and politics."
In the EU pursuit of politics is futile. In Russia it is fatal. In America it is inescapable. My neighbor decided to help out running the insignificant home owner's association in our subdivision. After a few trips to the municipal building to clarify his understanding of some of the town ordinances they roped him in to being on the town council or whatever they call it. They try to draft anyone they can to help because nobody wants to, there are better things to do in life here than get involved in government.
Huaimek;
"The European Union , for reasons of its own engrandisment and credibility on the world stage , has offered an " Utopia " to poor southern European countries , if they will join the European Union ."
That is correct. And for reasons of wanting something for nothing, the exploitation went in the other direction as well. So they accepted the offer. Greece's government went so far to insure acceptance of its entry that it went to Goldman Sachs to restructure its financial details to make itself look like it wasn't as destitute as it was. The hedge funds and derivitaves it invested in created the same kind of convoluted false picture of its finances Enron used to hide its own dire financial circumstances from the markets it tried to fool. Now Greece is angry because as those schemes inevitably fail when the truth comes to light and the piper must finally be paid, Goldman Sachs does what it and its competitors always do, it bets against them. And so GS gets a double bonus, selling the deceptive derivitives to Greece at a profit, and winning on bets that Greece would ultimately fail. The US government is looking into GS for it but what they will inevitably find is that while what GS did may have been immoral, even unethical, and in the long run no favor to the Greek people, it was not illegal at all. Think of it as Greece having bought one last big party. Now it is up to Germany to decide if it will pay the bill for that party.
Ironfranco;
Don't forget one crucial fact about Cassandra, she was always right. After the gods gave her the gift of prescience, they also made certain that her predictions would not be believed by anyone even though they all came true.
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A few people here seem to loose their marbles a bit, never mind the missing gold. Now for the marbles, the Greek marbles that is, they are of course in London at the British Museum. And the Greek gold? The Nazis never had a chance, that was already in London in the vaults of the Bank of England.
Now, more recent history reveals German involvement of another kind. Namely the undermining of law and order in Greece and elsewhere. The SS has long been replaced, as the records show, it is the brightest German star, SIEMENZ, that bribed the Greeks to the extend of 100 Million. Now who has the strenght to say now to that sort of argument?
Up to ten years ago German companies were of course able to deduct bribes made abroad from their tax. It was their modern way of conquest.
German politicians were even thinking of electing the head of Siemenz to the position of President.
Let the friendly Greek and German contributors here add these facts to their history books.
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@ 223 Nik
I agree with most of your arguments concerning the US/UK political support of Turkey and the lack of enough support for Greece from other EU countries like France & Germany.
Kemalist Turkey still does not meet the western standards for a secular & democratic society which would guarantee equal rights to all existing ethnic groups. Its foreign policy is that of a former empire, i.e. based on the Muslim religion in terms of values & cultural traditions and on the well developed defence system which can quickly be transformed into a successful war machine with no equivalent power in the region. One could quickly deduct from the present situation in South Eastern Europe that the status quo of the late 70-ies of the last century is totally destroyed, namely, Russia is no more the leading power in the region and Turkey is taking full advantage of the open vacuum in order to establish some kind of a political hegemony, based on the new ratio of the armed forces, I mean those of Turkey and those of the non-NATO countries.
I would split the problem into two different parts:
1) The evident lack of democratic achievements in the Turkish society;
2) The obvious lack of unified defence system of the EU and the consequent dependence of the EU from the US military cooperation within the NATO defence structures.
Russia is also trying to take some advantage of the present situation, but in this particular case, she’s using another type of political weapons: the energy transporting means such as the South stream project, the Burgas-Alexandropulus pipe, the Nuclear plant project on the Belene Island (on the Danube river) etc. Turkey is counteracting with the Nabuko project, etc., etc.
I assume it is in the interest of Greece & Bulgaria to accelerate the entry of the countries of the Western Balkans into the EU and to maintain well balanced relations with Russia and Turkey, based on the mutual economic interests. And, if God permits, our grand children will enjoy another peaceful reality based on some kind of independent European defence pact (the dream of late General de Gaulle). It is high time to think of it…
By that time, we are condemned to maintain the NATO defence structures, no matter weather it would please to our orthodox folks or not…
Sofia, Febr.26th 2010 Generalissimo
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At 228 I referred to a German company, the correct spelling is of course Siemens rather than Siemenz. Just a touch of dementia.
Tortilein from Frankfurt considers himself free from the Nazi past, having been born in 1980. Since Nazi loot had been mentioned and reparation of some kind or other I should like to ask him and other Germans contributing here about the those valuable pictures stolen from Jewish citizens all those years ago that German Museums have in their posession and have to this day refused to hand over. If you want to detach yourselves from the past you better start by detaching these pictures from the walls of your museums and hand them over including a fee for having "borrowed" them for all this time.
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To ChrisArta (216):
I thought that we already went through the question of interest rates.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/02/conspiracy_and_the_euro.html#P92837034
Interest rates are the same around the Eurozone when they are based on different forms of Euribor. What can be different between countries is the bank marginal that forms out of the competitive environment between banks, legal environment, type of industries, etc..
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WHAT IS GOING ON ON THESE BBC WEB PAGES????????????????????????????
I'VE JUST TRIED TO SIGN-IN TO THE 606 SPORTS' BLOG-SITE AND BEEN INFORMED I MUST NOW USE MY 'COOL-BRUSH-WORK' ID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????
FOR 2 YEARS I HAVE USED ANOTHER ID FOR THE SPORTS PAGES WHICH ARE GENERALLY MUCH MORE LIGHT-HEARTED AND I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT MY SPORT COMMENTS MIXED-UP WITH ALL THIS 'POLITICAL' MUD-SLINGING CONTRIBUTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT IS GOING ON BBC????????????????????????????????????????????
WHY IS MY 606 ID NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE???????????????????????????
WHY HAVE YOU DONE THIS WITHOUT NOTIFYING ME OF ANY CHANGE????????
WHY CAN'T THE BBC TECVH DEPT JUST LEAVE THINGS WELL ALONE???????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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To jablko (230):
Have you thought that maybe some reason for some items of art being not returned to their rightful owners is that it is a hard and a rigorous process to verify and trace what happened to a particular piece of art, who owned it, how was the ownership moved, to how should it belong to. You really can't just hand a valuable piece of art or anything just because someone makes a claim for it, you have to be certain that it goes to right address.
http://www.lostart.de
"The Lost Art Database is run by the Koordinierungsstelle Magdeburg, Germany’s central office for the documentation of lost cultural property. It was set up jointly by the Government and the Länder of the Federal Republic of Germany and registers cultural objects which as a result of persecution under the Nazi dictatorship and the Second World War were relocated, moved or seized, especially from Jewish owners."
PS. To all other whiners who weep for compensation because of some historical unjust, be it because of Germans, French, English, Russian, etc... choke on it. If you don't have money, prosperity, wealth or advanced society, then that is your own fault. I look with especially contemptuous eyes, claims coming from countries with warm climate, with rich natural resources, with good trade connections, if the mother earth makes it all so easy for you, and you still can't get things done, then it is your own fault.
I'm right now battling snow and cold every moment I go outside, In here the society works, it works because if it doesn't, we all freeze to death. And still, while living in a very hard piece of land with harsh climate, we make so much money that we can share some of it via EU to our less developed EU partners in the warm south. If anything, I would like the whining to stop. Is that so big thing to ask?
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Re: 195 Nik .I understand your doubts and I too belong to no party, mistrusting most politicians. I am also a Brit married to a Greek so have lived the past 20 years here and have had some wonderful times, I would much rather bring up my child here than the UK even though I pity her going through the hellish education system.However, I hope with their backs against the wall PASOK will be forced to make the changes that should have been gradually implemented over a number of years. Furthermore, perhaps it is the only way any Greek government can implement change as to introduce such drastic changes would never be accepted ordinarily, only by the overseeing of the EU can this be forced through, ie. when needs must. Now, whether these changes will be maintained after their implementation is another thing, as we know laws are introduced frequently and then forgotten or pushed aside eg. smoking and helmet wearing on motorbikes. I just HOPE that what I called a "New" Greece can be pulled off as I know its citizens would be so much happier and willing to pull together as a society if laws were kept and the overall social system worked effectively. After all the weather may be great here- and so many times that's put to me as a reason for staying put, but how long can this cover the gaping holes in social welfare and education?
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Bdsm... Χαρά στο κουράγιο σου! (free tanslation: I admire your courage...!!!). You must really love your partner a lot to be able to withstand the crazyness of this country for 20 years now. I am mostly out of Greece for the last 10 years for studies and then work and finally I remained for personal reasons as my idea would be to continue working in Greece whatever the price!
But I have already worked there 3,5 years, starting with the usual: 600 euros and the first two months without contract, uninsured (call me a victim). That was in a SME of around 50-60 people (metal constructions) working for a boss who was really not the worst person you could find around. He told me once "Nik, that is how the market works, I am forced to keep things down even if I ashamed to pay such". He was not trying to justify himself, I knew how things were elsewhere, it was just the truth. As he said often to me "Nik, I have been fighting 20 years to built my business and finally in the last five years I made something... but all what you see around you, I have made it with "lies").
One of his favourite lies was to get loans for investing in new machinery to increase productivity. The loans were actually partly given from the Greek state and the EU. But what he needed was not so much the new machinery to buy more plots of land to expand the unit which lacked terribly space (100s of manhours moving stock here and there). But there was no loan for buying land and banks' loans would be prohibitory (if they made any proposal). So he would take this "new machinery loan", buy the land, expand the unit and then to justify it go to neighbouring countries and buy for nothing machinery from closed factories and put it inside the plant, in some corner. Still, that rendudant machinery took some space inside but at least outside we could move around! At the time of the inspection, inspectors could clearly see that the machinery was not new and not up to date but with a little bit of "oil" (that is how bribing is called in Greek), they gave the OK just fine.
I gave you an "extremely typical" example of how business goes on in this country. And how people that start their businesses with dreams quickly or slowly end up playing the game just like anyone else, it is doing that or perish.
Bdsm... I know what you mean when saying lets hope that the PASOK party (no matter its past record that is gently said unacceptable), having its back on the wall will do something to correct the situation. But one has to see what is the government up to:
1) It is the same government that opened its mouth in the first weak of its rising to power(!) to reveal the situation bringing all that wave of events. Strangely a similar thing had happened with the equally corrupted ND party when it took power in early 2004 but back then nothing had happened since the reasons it happened now were not yet to the point (i.e. the signature for the ggggggghhhhhhmmmm...Russian gaz)
2) It is the same governement that froze the Russian gaz project since the first week in power and currently searches ways not only of delaying it but also cancelling it!!!
2) It is the same governement that froze the talks with the Chinese about the management of Greek major ports (i.e. giving space to Chinese to expand and modernise 2 major ports of Greece in exchange of free flow of their products).
What is the government afraid? That Chinese products will attack the Greek production? Should I laugh now or later? What? Chinese Parthenons and Chinese olive oil? Or do Greeks produce any electrical and electronic products to be threatened? And above all, what is so bad with the cheap Russian gaz? I guess Saoudi oil is cheaper and more environmentally friendly eh?
Well I am afraid no. This US-passport holder Papandreou led PASOK government is not on any other agenda than working for the US and the effort to stop the commercial expansion of Russia and the collaboration with the EU. EU countries (apart UK that traditionally does not like all that approach with Russians), are incapable of saying anything, afterall Germans will be getting their gaz via the north sea directly from Russia so they do not care for the rest. Each try to protect its own feud, and Papandreou does the same - his own feud is not Greece of course, Greece is his colony if you did not get it! It could be Sweden or Kenya, no difference would make for him.
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cool_brush_work, I'll start from replying to you, though many intersting posts were ? "lettered"? posts posted ? above today.
I think that's BBC unifying things into one blogger name to be used for all blogs. I remember there was an article in the Editors' recently telling, as minimu, that one can not use different nick names for Have You Say and at a particular blog, but should use one name for both.
May be the same concerns your sport life and political life - you can't lead them separately.
Come on, cool_brush, don't you know sport and politics are inter-related. Which reminds me aaaah no. better not even to remember :o)))))))))
(and hockey to the dogs as well.)
Nasty article of BBC it was by the way, on shining Russian winter sports achievements :o)))) "with 3 days left before the end of the Olymoics Russia has got 3 golden medals only which arises a reasonable question are they worthy to handle Sochi Olympics?"
Is London jealous? Let's have a swap! Summer for winter ones!
Afetr all, London has been noticed in snow recently, while Sochi is the only sub-tropical part of Russia (honestly. it is "sub-tropics" :o)))) Palm trees and all. The warmest spot in Russia - to hold "winter Olympics". Not to scare away countries used to mild climates. A joke of a winter Olympics.
Anyway cool-brush, after I was systematised and all, by the BBC system, I can't enter this blog (the only place where I reside) unless I change my password. Honest. 3 weeks already. It doesn't recognise me unless I "you have asked to change your password". Then I change it - and it recognises me, on each entry. I have changed one and the same pass-word to the very same pass-word :o)))))) about 50 times by now, I change it every day, or 3 times a day. May be I am being trained for a spy. And when I re-type the old one, and "confirm it" again, it says "you have successfully changed your pass-word." "you can continue now".
Sure, successfully! Who'd even doubt! I keep re-writing one and the same thing!
Anyway it's kind of normal now, because things looked too organised before and now it's more like home dear home, a certain degree of surrealism in it. :o))))
today above. because I remember best what you wrote
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WebAlice
Re, ID Sign-ins
Of course everything to some extent is 'politics' and isn't politics the most daring 'sport' of all!?
Nonetheless, the BBC has yet again interfered where it did not have to and has enforced a Hi-Tec change that nobody so far as I can tell ever sought or finds remotely useful.
WHY DOES THE BBC DO IT???
BBC is owned by the License Fee Payers: Over recent decades it has behaved in an increasingly high-handed, autocratic manner and these little episodes are symptomatic of a much larger issue the BBC must be made to face.
Is it a Media organisation best fitted to serve the British Public and thereby the UK as a whole or does it have more 'worldly' ambitions in which case its COMPULSORY FUNDING by BRITONS must be brought to a halt?
I know I no longer pay the License, but having done so for some 30+ years I feel I have accrued interest in how the BBC functions and have every right to demand an explanation for a wholly unwarranted change of procedure.
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To Jukka Rohila (233)
Thank you very much for your answer and indeed the webside. It is true that some efforts are being made in more recent times. A fuller search on the German media reveals this. The latest notice I came across is less than a month old, unfortunately I can't quite remember the source. But it had an official character and adressed the need to "press on" with the subject. It is the year 2010, too late to heal any wounds.
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smroet @212
"WA, the subject of public debt is a serious one."
I agree. In order not to answer silly and hasty I was looking up the status and story of the Russian debt to France in various internet sources in Russian, where different positions are presented - our Foreign Affairs Ministry, heaps of diff. committees, Romanov's Dom, the Russian Orthodox Church position, Parliament documents during the past 30 yrs etc.
The lay-out is legally complex, for the most part - because several times in the 20th century period we had changes of power more resembling a coup (not 1917 only), and what's even worse - even post factum these somersaults were never formalised legally internally! In Russia.
By papers, the continuity of power in Russia has been interrupted 3 times as min.
Btw 2nd revolution Feb 1917 and 3rd revolution Nov 1917 (when monarchy was re-placed by Parliament power) - lapsed period, simply hoped over, non-formalised still! Lenin claimed he takes territorial borders of Russia from Monarchy, and that's the only thing he picks and choses :o)
- but there was no monarchy from who he picked and chosed, Romanovs abdicated, we were a Parliament Republic.
To say nothing of the questionable ability to pick and chose, and not take the full continuity package.
Same thing when Stalin was kicking out Lenin folk, because that was a change of systems again, and he also forgot to formalise things.
Far worse in perestroyka time period, when Russian parliament was released simply forcefully sent home :o) by Yeltsin or Gorby - forgot now who - but by all look it appears they also forgot to legalise the new structure somehow even post-factum. Oh, twice - once at Yeltsin wehn the parliament was bombed and sent home and once at Gorby when "released" and sent home - the Sovviet of Peoples' Deputies, who held power in the Russian Federation post USSR, when Russian Federation was singled out of the USSR.
We've got 2 to 4 these lapsed periods un-formalised properly.
During one of them (at Stalin) (1932) Russia desired money, and offered France and Britain to settle old debts of the Russian Empire, by the pick anbd chose basis again - type - we do not inherit the Russian Empire in full - just these 2 debts as an exception and our good-will (because we want to borrow from Francce and Britain in future again and be freinds :o))) The Depression of 1930-s abd hunger in Volga basin and Ukraine, the famine - the explanation of this sudden "good will pick and choose".
At 15% value. :o) Both Britain and France refused the offer in 1932. (then regretted it :o))) because it was 15 % of real value, by buying ability compared)
The next thing Russian goverenment desired for money in perestroyka, another hunger and "famine", and again desired to borrow from the West, and again suggested to settle the Russian Empire old debts to France and Britain. Again, by applying this wonderful "pick and choose" basis :o))) saying "we don't recognise any continuity of the current state to the Russian Empire State, but it is our good will to pick and choose a couple of old debts dating back to Empire time, and pay them up (at a fraction of the size when compared in buying ability), and, in exchange, we will borrow from Britain and France anew immediately.
A tricky cunning offer but the second time France and Britain have accepted, remembering the first time, of 1932, likely :o)))) and that those fits of generosity don't occur with Russia often :o)))) To say nothing about Russia's ability to pay practically :o)))
Of course the most convincing factor was that we indeed borrowed from the two anew and paid good interest modern rates, so Britain and France were able to earn on Russia something again.
So in 1997 we signed that everything pending btw Russia and France, in particular, for all the time period prior to that (avoiding naming state names whatever Russia happened to be :o))), during the un-settled period:o))) simply, kind of, as matters stand - by that date - all is cleared up. And Russia paid to France 400 mln dollars - all stated in the agreement paper.
Note, that Russia simaltaneously in that document , without mentioning it, but de facto, gave up on all France owes to Russia, for all the previous time "up to the date" - because whatever this our mysterious state :o)))) is called and is based upon in terms of its continuity :o)))) - there are 3 debts pending after France - compensation for the French intervention of 1920-1923 Russia stubbornly desires since 1923
- the admiral Kolchak gold - Russian Empire state reserves in gold - caried out of Russia by self-intrepreneural admiral Kolchak - not appointed by any one for the "mission" - neither by Romanovs nor by bourgeoius Parliament nor by Soviet powers Lenin etc. - his personal deisre to replentish French state coffers by the train of gold of Russian empire reserves (which France accepted and processed with good appetite :o)))
- and some still ununderstandable to me Brest-Litovsk agreement payment (need to read more honestly getting lost)
Plus things here and there on the French riviera built up nearly entirely as rich Russian dacha-s during the empire times, not just that one cathedral, but heaps of Russian private investment - grabatised and nationalised to the state by France when Russia turned colour after revolution 1917.
We've got hefty things pending from France ourselves, but de-cried them by the deal 1997 of cross-debts cancellation.
The cathedral is another example of pick and choose recent mad Russian activity - which indeed raises questions why pick and choose instead of accepting continuity from the Russian Empire in full.
(I think Russian Orthodox Church pressed Kremlin on that one-off re-acquisition).
And I think Romanov's Dom had something to do with it, as the cathedral in the French riviera was paid from Empire budget by the tsar, and purchased (the land) and built (the cost) by Romanov's personal; state allowance from the Russian empire (salary paid by the state to the tsar :o)))) But in the purchase paper from France tsar signed something "for the needs of the state". Tricky.
Romanovs have surrendered rights to Hermitage and all to the current Russian state, de facto, support this, do not demand back, as minimum, no restitution plans in the old dynasty position (we are all mad patriots :o)))), incl. the exhiled tsars :o))))
I think talks were done with them in which they signalled they surrender cathedral ownership rights to modern Russian state as well, like the Hermitage.
Meanwhile private French investors who still keep old stocks of Russian Empire state obligations don't want to know nothing about settlement of 1997, in which both states agreed not to support by state side any private investors' claims to each other if their respective countries, and don't want to know nothing of Russia not knowing where its continuity starts and ends and when :o))) and what they inherit and what they think they don't inherit :o)))) and how the have it formalised by papers - but simply wants money.
Cathedral is not the first raider :o))) attack on us; the same French investors tried to arrest Hermitage exhibition on a tour in the Louvre, tried to grabatised Russian marine cadets' school brig sedov, when it cast anchor in France (the poor ship hardly escaped :o))) by full sails :o))) Sedov is the only wooden sails run huge ship in the world now :o)) a real antiquity with 150 sailors' crew going under sails, around the world - so a good catch escaped fro the french investors.
And it's not the last time, I am sure there will be more claims.
Internally we start to see the proble, that indeed it is kind of insane not to inherit the Russian Empire but only inherit the USSR (as Russia did formally), because there wer heaps of good things to own if Russia announces it inherits the Russian empire in full.
But that'll be a huge grand decision, if ever taken, but what I read is there are some applications now to the highest authority in Russia - the Constitutional court - to figure out why we don't inherit the Emperial Russia - and in particular - questioning this pick and chose approach to Empire times property.
It may end up - :o))) a warning - that the whole deal of 1997 will be de-cried, as based on pick and chose, and then I don't know. We might demand 400 million from France back! The Kolchak's gold, the intervention cover, the Brest-Litovsk whatever, the whole French riviera :o)))) - and accept we inherit the Empire - and accept the private French investors' debt.
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As to you, Mavrelius, and Russia's Lend-Lease debt to the USA - you are simply pulling my leg!
I did some reading on that "debt" as well - excuse me MA, this is a far more clear case, without ambiguity, or how it is called, we are more on legal grounds and firm ground with that. Namely - formally modern Russia recognised its continuity from the USSR state in full.
The Lend-Lease borrowing dates back to the USSR time.
Thus Russia accepted the debt.
Thus Russia settled the debt to you, well, not in full over done with yet, but paying steadily on schedule, with just 100 million dollars still to be returned which we will.
Now, granted you are un-happy with the 700 million dollars total sum, but excuse me that is what USSR and the United States agreed upon in 1972, which was a good legal time, no revolutions/perestroyka-s, when we knew we are USSR and you knew you are the USA.
So modern Russia picked up the payment due from USSR and pays and will.
The USA have agreed for this small amount in 1972, 700 mln dollars and we are set, because by the Lend-Lease agreement we never owned you the full amount for which you generously provided goods and armament and food. I've read about Lend-Lease, and I read the Lend-Lease deals, from 1941 on throughout the war, a serie of them, and it appears you never wanted money back in full in the first place.
Lend-Lease btw USSR and the USA state (all the 4 of them) that the amount payable back to the USA, on this credit line, is only the price of those pieces of machinerey and armament, cars and tyres, food :o))) and aviation benzine, and metal, which will NOT be processed during the war. Namely, if Russia fights using US jeeps and tyres and tanks and bullets, and any of them survive post war - a US commission comes over, post war, estimates the sum of money equivalent to the survived un-used privisions and metal stocks and tanks survived whatever, trains as well - and this is the amount USSR owes to the USA on Lend-Lease.
You were originally generous, by signing the Lend-Lease with us, because it was clear to you there won't be any food items to "count" :o)
post war in the first place, and, given the intensity of fire on the Eastern Front - not much chance USSR will have any tanks "un-used and survived the war", to say nothing of bullets :o))))
So the 700 million is the equivalent of the left-overs, American provisions, that survived the war. And estimated in prices of 1972.
Which is not as good as 1941, but still not so far away off if we were comparing 2010 and 1941.
Since 1972 we are paying. Why not since 1945 at once - I don't know. Apparently you quarreled too much with us :o)))) post war suddenly, and thought it's more important than to collect lend-lease left-overs :o))))
Though you commission was countng pieces and bits left on the ground here right post war, doing the inventory, found nil tanks and bullets granted, and nil meat tins and chocolate :o)))), and nil aviation bensine surprise surprise, but found lots of metal stocks still un-used and lots of American cars that survived the war and lots of trains.
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Besides, don't forget to remember at least, at times :o))) that 20% was returned to the US at once during the war. 20% is not much but who else was paying you back in 1941-1945 I wonder but Russians :o))))
The so-called Returned Lend-Lease, carrying back to the US Russian goods, cross-written out by that barter deal. Because by Lend-Lease with the USSR you not only signed to lenbd and lease to us, but that we simultaneously Lend and Lease to you!
Capitalists, one word. To want something of Russia in war.
Anyway, by that very US commission estimation, by returning ships you were sent back 20% of the Lend-Lease value in the direction to the USSR. We were paying you for food and benzine and tanks and airplanes - by gold, platinum, Mg, chrome, (320 thousand tons chrome only), caviar :o))), salmon! Jesus Christ, expensive types of timber you accepted, and furs.
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Before the decisive Kursk and Stalingrad battles Lend-Lease to USSR was stopped flat for 6 month. Fact. Well, 5 separate ships sent, in 6 months.
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And don't forget "Lend-Lease" :o)))) to Germany, during the war.
All in line with what your Truman said, in July 1941: "if Russia will be winning over - we will be helping Germany, and if germany will be winning over - we will be helping Russia. And let them kill each other at max."
"neutral" Spanish fleet worked whole war delivering US "Lend-Lease" fuel to Germany, so shameless openly, that it reached the point when German subs were re-fuelling right at sea! from Spanish tankers, carrying US oil and benzine to nazi Germany! Without caring to wait until these tankers reach German ports. Right at sea -,openly! And went at once to drown - in the same very sea - American ships!
Capitalists.
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30% of Ford out-put in 1941-1943 was delivered to Germany.
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Sorry, Mavrelius. old times bad times.
New times :o)))) - plain wonderful! :o))))
You are right that in Russia doing business is fatal. Well, some manage, somehow. But the one-offs one hears about make hair stand up on headRight now we have an awful case, just made knowsn, a man saved an old Soviet factory from perestroyka ruins, from all raiders' attacks, from buyers and mergers and acquisitions :o))) from bull-dozing and selling as land, the space, from bandit raids open and sneaky. Saved the business, re-structured all, and kept that whole town emplyed in that factory survived through the mess and pverty. Paid salaries, found customers, found suppliers, saved the business and the town. So far so good. Attempted a conglomerate, with other surviving factories across Russia, making the same composite materials, to join up as an industry, tecnological and quite up-to-date.
In the process worked himself to death, was nervous too much, open fire, raiders' raids, courts and hungry employees, buildings set on fire at night to shut up the business, got exhausted in other words. Got stomack cancer, was operated, had half of him cut away off. Lost 50 kilos, weights 40, ate by injections, kilos of medications, unable to stand up from bed, quit the work.
Immediately all the attacks at the successful business began again, they are working way to well, somebody didn't like a big conglomerate competitor formed.
Employees pleaded him to return back head the business again, if only 1 hr a day he is in the office. The chap stood up from dead returned to work.
Not for long. There comes police and grabs him and puts to prizon. For 1 ex employee of the factory wrote she rented out a factory wing to a business 10 yrs ago, signed the contract, didn't give money to the business, hid it, spent it personally (her signature on the contract) and was "orally told by the director to do so".
There isn't a prosecution open against her. Because she says she was "orally told to do so".
There is a court process opened against the old director.
First thing in prizon they took away from him his medications and prizon doctors wrote in his card "100 healthy".
The chap quickly tried to die within the two 2 days because he can only eat via a tube and that tube they took away. Because he is "healthy" and "provides danger for the society", has to be kept before the trial behind the bars. Employees write to Medvedev, to Putin, to European Court in Strasbourg, to all human rights organisations, and to the oncological director centre in Moscow, the main director of the Federal oncology centre. Who quickly telegrams to the judge he puts his name that the man is ill and will not live without being tube fed even several days and won't live without medications. He puts his signature the man is very ill and should be put to hospital out of prizon, as minimum. There is an urgent court session. The "healthy" director is brought to the court room on that foldable bed, how it's called. His relatives run to him and shove him tablets he is missing. The judge orders to take away tablets of him immediately because "they are foreign and not prescribed by the prizon doctor who doesn't know such medications' names". The security tears out tablets nearly out of his mouth. Then the judge refuses to clip to the case the three onclogy doctors' opinions, refuses to accept the federal medical centre patients' record, and rules "healthy, can be detained until the court session, next hearing will take place in 8 months."
The curtain.
This is now, I mean, this week.
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@WebAlice #239
Thanks for the precisions. I knew about the Sedov, beautiful boat. Might have seen it. There is now a five mast boat in the Adriatic in the summer, but it is a modern reconstruction of an old German boat. The Sedov was build in Germany as well, I read.
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#225. cool_brush_work
It is of course entertaining to see your interpretation of the political fact (“Germany's Citizen Electorate has unbounded faith and interest in the European Union.”), but it is pretty overstated, and I cannot say I feel that this interpretation is creating any new insight or deep insight in the democracy for that matter.
I shall tell you something about political consequence: If you vote CDU and Angela Merkel you will - provided she has the parliamentarian possibilities - get CDU and Angela Merkel politics. Voila!
Since her fraction got close to 40% of all votes at the last general election, she is the political leader with the strongest support. Add to this that all fractions in Bundestag with one little exception are in favour of the general German EU politics. The political consequence is that Bundestag continues what has been the German position for decades: A policy in favour of EU.
I have no reason to believe that the German voters do not understand this, on the contrary, and in many cases they actively support this policy apart from voting for it. It is in their interest. Elementary, Dr. Watson.
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#216 ChrisArta
You have an idealistic view of the EU , completely blind to any of its flaws . Your statement that " The idea of the EU is not to make every nation the same as Germany " WAS quite correct . Tourism , Olive Oil and Fashion are No match to Cars or heavy industry . The introduction of the Euro effectively made every nation have to be equal to Germany , or Germany equal to every nation .
When countries had there own currency , their " Widows Mite " contribution was sufficient ; but when the Euro causes their cost of living to rise dramatically , it is not .
Mediterranean countries , I speak of Italy where I have lived , know every loophole , trick in the book , to extract money from Bussels . The EU encourages them to improve their lives , their welfare state . All those countries are in dire straights because they have abused the system . Italy never honestly qualified to join the Euro , Greece too and I dare say Spain and Portugal . The mentality of northern europeans is completely different from those in the south . In Italy the Northern League party would like to draw a line across Italy , perhaps south of Florence ; to cut off the industrious north from the corrupt and wasteful south ; to let the south do its own thing , without being a drain on the hard working people of the north .
The people of Europe are not all the same . No amount of coaxing and bullying will make them the same . One size will never fit all . For poor southern European countries to join the Euro was a grave mistake . What is planned on paper does not always work in reality .
MarcusAuraliusII
I have written many times of my observation of how mediterranean countries , Italy in particular , have turned the tables on the EU and financially abused it at every opportunity .
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Mathiasen
Re #247
Well, I enjoyed the 'Elementary my dear Watson!'
However, though having no pretension to being a Sherlock of any sort I think my question as to the 60% (1994) and 43% (2009) German Voter Turnout for EP Elections is fair.
So fair in fact You conspicuously again fail to address it in any way, preferring to allude to what you imagine are German Citizens' views on the EU and Germany's policies toward it - - whereas, the stark Electoral German fact is 57% of Germans expressed no support or dissatisfaction - - which is a statistical curiosity at least and stranger sort of support!?
Returning to the venerable detective theme it does seem to me your faith in German Citizens actual perception of the EU as opposed to the reality may well be covered by this little aside:
It is night & Holmes & Dr Watson are camping.
Holmes wakes Watson and asks, 'What do you see?'
Watson looks up and replies, 'I see the vast galaxy, billions of stars, God is at work & all is right with the World.'
Holmes exasperatedly cries out, 'No Watson! Someone has stolen the bloody tent!'
Naturally, I assume, you as a fervent EU supporter will recognise yourself in the Doctor role!
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#250
The question you should ask yourself is this:
Are German voters able to take care of their interests?
You are free to say that they cannot, but don't expect me to give the same answer.
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smroet @246
You are welcome.
I am of course for accepting full inheritance of the Empire, because this is more adequate to the reality, and , how to say, when you know where you stand and have a firmer ground under your feet - it should pay off in the longer term, somehow.
Even if originally some expenses are to be accepted.
Well, the Russian Empire obligations held by the private investors' families in France are not exactly "small expenses" :o))), but it strongly seems to me are adequate to a yearly Empire turnover for, say, 1904 - which is miraculously close to the total yearly income of the Russian Federation in 2010!
That's why no one in Kremlin has a courage to accept the Empire as predecessor of the USSR, as the total claim of the Club of Russian Empire obligations' holders in modern France, their official name, of the organisation, equals a yearly turn-over of the modern Russia. Should that be returned - it will send us into such a spiral of borrowing abroad and falling victim to the mercy of IMF, that I honestly don't think we'll ever get out of it.
When IMF controls a country - it is close to impossible for a country to get out of it. We had that post-perestroyka, we know, and only sudden oil jump about 10-fold saved us miraculously, which luck I am afraid is un-likely to repeat itself again :
Moreover, if Russia won't be finished off by IMF, in the unlikely event of :o))) - it will surely be finished off by own Russians, whose rights for Empire times property will also have to be recognised. As revolution grabatised all private property of the Empiire to the state ownership.
That's why Empire recognition is a deadly move, indeed, and is shunned away off by our powers as the most insane idea on Earth.
Some caveats are though made into it, take Russian Orthodox Church, who was able to bull-dog out of the state its whole Empire times property, land and buildings included. Again, on this wonderful "pick and choose" basis. :o)))))
What Russian media writes is nearly every second man in France used to hold Russian Empire obligations on their fire-place stand :o)) tucked behind some mirror, and many held not one paper but packs of them, and. accordingly, when in Russia there began revolutions many had a nervous break-down and there were even suicides, because the involvement was indeed pan-France. The French government back then activily promoted that the French people by those obligations, because France and Russia were friends, and because the first big run was to finance the Trans-Siberian railroad construction, which was planned to be quite profitable enterprise, in normal times indeed. The second major issue was about 1st world war, in which Russia took French side, and that was gone forever, as an investment, I mean. Proved to be hopeless.
But the railroad is still there, and it is a monopoly that is doing not bad at all, and to be fair I think those Empire obligations should be replaced with Russian railroads obligations, because it is the main means of transportation in Russia (a country without roads) still, that carries absolutely all people and cargo, airplanes' flight an impossible expensive luxury for Russians these days.
And, theoretically, it should pay off being honest (somehow :o)))) accepting the Empire heritage. I am sure Empire had many useful for us things as well, only they don't shout about themselvves loud, but can be found and will be found immediately, if we acccept the continuity of the state.
As to Sedov - indeed German ship, we got it as reparations at Potsdam in 1945. And one more beatufuil big sails ship forgot which. Overall there are 5 "big beautiful" under sail, in 4 masts. 2 ex-german and 3 built in 1980-s at Gdansk ship-yeard for us, exact replica-s of old Russian who didn't survive the past century. Plus three in 3 masts. Overall a fleet of 8 beautiful at sea. So, one would expect :o)) a lot of ships to be hunted by poor French investors a la old pirate style :o)))) in the near future :o))))
Sedov, Mir, Kruzenshtern, Nadezhda, Pallada, forgot other brig names.
Of whose sea adventures we wiill surely hear a lot in future again :o))))
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Mathiasen
Presumably you meant my #249.
Anyway, of course I don't expect you to see things my way: I do however expect a little more by way of explanation of how your assumption Germany's EP Voter turnout is a reflection of their belief in the EU or even your idea of them being, "..able to take care of their interests.."?
Reading of the struggle Chancellor Merkel is having to gain German Citizens approval for any sort of engagement and assistance to Greece it seems to me there may just be a backlash among the 57% non-voting Citizens as to exactly what is acceptable for the EU to put upon Germany!
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The consequances of the Russian Empire recognition as predecessor are very far going. Without realising it , the French offer us another "French Revolution" :o)))) as the state will be open for claims of old property..
Now, imagine St.Petersburg. Not a modern glass building down town acc to the law of the architecture preservation. Accordingly, right now these city is walked by many St. Petersburgers, who are able to point a finger at a building and say - this is my grandma's. The whole city, the whole down-town.
And this is the same everywhere.
This side of the Urals there isn't a single land plot or an old building who doesn't have a pre-revolutionary owner. Whether it's owned now by the state or by private owners other.
Thus, it'd seem, if property and land ownership times Empire is recognised - this side of the Urals will stay about 10 per cent of Russians.
The rest 90% will have to move beyond Urals to less tied-down as property lands.
Surely current owners won't surrender it without a fight. neither will the state - what to "ordinary private people????" :o))))
Anyway.
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#251 WebAlice,
My reading of French sources taught me a story very similar to yours about this debt. It is very odd of course that republican France helped develop autocratic Russia, but that happened, and there was a lot of state propaganda to induce French private citizens into buying these bonds. Since essential funds were lost in 1917, it partly explains why French society did not develop as well between WWI and WWII. In the meantime, an 'Atlantic class' was made between the UK, the USA, and Germany. So this story goes very far indeed.
There are ancient title deeds all over the place, also in e.g. Greece, and certainly a lot of German families 'displaced' after WWII might still have them somewhere. My estimate is that most people want to move on, and forget about these things. But maybe I'm wrong in this.
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I'm intrigued to know what Nik wrote after my last input that could not be passed by the moderators as yet??
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smroet,
it seems troubles in Russia do affect European countries elsewhere, when you look carefully into it. Like in that French example of investment lost, following the Russian revolution, which seems more and more to us as a coup, sudden twist to Bolshevism, from recently established Parliamentary state.
And as Nik from Greece pointed out, one of their main and profitable trade routes gone, Crimea - Greece. The shipping line.
There definietly used to be connections and trade relations and cross-investments established before. Of which we nearly all by now forgot, that they were, beyond "oil and gas". Based on cultural "inclinations" or geopolitics/geographically sensible.
I wish someone reads me a course on Russian Empire trade connections :o))) now, to figure out how it was before, that it worked, without stupid oil and gas.
And, of course, if it were up to me, I'd have up-graded Empire railroad obligations to Russian Fed modern railroad obligations. To all private French people who, say, had 1-20 such documents, were not stock brokes, but ordinary people. Even if this happens to be 1/2 of France :o)))
After all, people kept those old Empire papers! I mean - trusted in Russia - the only ones in the world! :o))))) during the 20th century :o))))
As a one off, to acknoledge such a Faith - I'd pay up.
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And, like, as a message to other investors :o))))
One wants to invest in a railroad in Siberia - here it is. :o)))
120 years later :o)))) For great grandchildren - guaranteed.
:o)))))
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The Greeks are currently so furious with the Germans that will now stop buy Porsche's and start buying Ferrari's.
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WA,
Your comments are great.. with good language skills and literature and poetry at hand. Keep doing what you've been doing. Don't worry about peoples comments or thoughts ..given ..to you. (I, myself, do not worry bout people's thoughts about me...lolol)
Nik,
Your comments are interesting. I liked your defense of Greece (about no. 175-Juxtaposed?) It was a comprehensive, point for point defense and an excellent post.
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Reading the comments, I had to register just to respond to giannis for #13 where he said "But being a Greek we dont care about that money, just that we resisted Germans in WWII more than other countries that welcomed the Nazi beast, like Turkey for example, or the high economy Northern countries, is fullfiling me enough!!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kurtulu%C5%9F
You should be ashamed, if you're a grown up. If not, grow up, pay your taxes and pay your debt like we all do.
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@MAII
"at least the British paid us back...even if it did take 70 years at 2% interest a year. By the time it was paid off, the money was all but worthless due to inflation. We gave them these rediculously generous terms because we didn't know how long it would take them to recover economically. Judging from their current circumstances compared to the end of WWII, I'd say we underestimated. They seem even more broke now than they were then"
The UK took 60+ years to pay back the WWII debt precisely because it was @ 2% or less than the cost of funds for the 60 years. - so why pay it back when new money could be kept with the BOE at >2%. FYI there is still WWI UK govt debt on the books that’s treated the same way.
Re The UK being broke, I would have though someone posting from the worlds largest debtor country would have heard about rocks and glass houses? Or perhaps a black pot and kettle? How long do you think the US will take to repay its $12.5 trillion debt?
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PM George Papandreou, You were eager to win the elections. You made promises that you knew you could not deliver. You assigned Mr. Pangalos to your cabinet, the person who openly hated the German people. You wore a green tie and went to Moscow leaving the crowds revolting against Europe. You were in the government of PM Simitis and you were aware of the GS dealings, yet you play ignorant now. You and the investors who proped you up will make billions by taking Greece out of the Euro and into the Drachma. You all have invested in financial instruments and you all will benefit by the devaluation of the currency when tired Europe will kick you out of the Eurozone. Then with a less transperent currency you will have the economy of your life at the expense of the Greek people who worked very hard to be in the Eurozone. You and your investors have performed a coup on the Greek economy. Your self created cabinet will derail any improvements and better relationships with Europe. You, like your father and grandfather have destroyed Greece and you will be remembered in history like the despot who destroyed the World economy. Bravo Mr. Papandreou.
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Totally agree with Harry Bousr
That is the only reason the Greek Gov instead of threatening the EU is begging. Where is the money? Papandreou was asking the ND government, Everyone knows where that money is - in the pockets of the PASOK and ND governments and friends that have ruled this country.
The average Greek has always paid taxes since most of the work force is civil servants, (which tax is deducted directly from the salary) private sector also the same (deducted) and farmers. All of these account to about 80% of the population - That 20% is running this country and using all the EU funds - Ah yes they have all there money in Swiss bank accounts and no one can touch them. So get of our backs about paying taxes and find out (if you wish to criticize) what the truth is.
If the governments had used the EU money the proper way non of this would have happened. And if the EU had some way to actually check on where the money ends up everything would be just fine.
I guess the EU is made up of idiots that spend peoples money with out knowing where its going. Maybe this is a good thing that's happening at the moment, maybe we all can find out what the EU has being spending our money on, if they create some form of mechanism, IF....
As far as your post Bora get a grip and understand that you cant insult a nation because you have no knowledge of things. The story of this nation far exceeds you.
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Good Blog..
Thanks
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