Reflections on a 'snub'
In Greece, where I spent the better part of this week, the "snub" didn't register. No one spoke of the perceived slight of an American president passing on attending an EU-American summit. The people there are focused on the real world of wage freezes, cuts in spending and paying for their nation's deficit.
Elsewhere it has been another week of angst for an insecure union. As one Belgian paper put it, "the EU is in danger of being sidelined".
If the EU were in therapy, the analyst might conclude its stress derives from willing what cannot be.
Sometime down the road European officials became obsessed with influence, with being a global player. After all, one often hears, the EU is the largest donor of international aid. It is the biggest trading bloc...so surely, the argument goes, they deserve a seat at the top table. And yet, too often, they feel slighted.
On climate change European leaders, with some justification, believed they had set the pace. Yet when the final accord was agreed in Copenhagen they were outsiders. The Swedish prime minister got to hear about the deal by text message. The EU was left bruised.
The push for recognition was one of the drivers behind the Lisbon Treaty. Europe needed to speak with one voice, so it was said. Yet the structure it ended up with after eight years of haggling is off to a rocky start.
When, recently, I was in New York I found bafflement over the EU's top jobs. There's a President of the European Council, a President of the Commission, a rotating Presidency, a President of the European Parliament. And then there's a new foreign policy chief. Washington is struggling to decode this. "It is not clear who is speaking for Europe," said one official.
Stephen Flanagan of the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington was quoted as saying "the great hope that the naming of Catherine Ashton, the EU's new foreign policy chief, would lead to coherence has not turned out to be true".
While some European officials yearn for that top-table place, they bump up against an uncomfortable reality. Some European leaders jealously guard their influence at the international level. That is what lay behind the choice of the relatively unknown Herman Van Rompuy as the first President of the Council.
It is difficult for Europe to always speak with one voice when there are clear differences between countries. The UK, for instance, supports Turkey's accession to the EU while President Sarkozy does not. And the EU's most powerful leaders, Merkel and Sarkozy, do not want further integration. It is not clear, either, that the European public shares this desire for global influence.
So these contradictions make for European anxiety, particularly when an American president prefers to stay at home.
There are other factors at work here. The EU-US summits are twice-yearly. The Europeans tend to love summits; the Americans want to know what they are for. Last November, when the summit was in Washington, President Obama dropped by for just over an hour. Then he was done and Joe Biden was sent in. Again the Europeans bristled.
President Obama is a pragmatist. He is less concerned with whom he speaks to and more with what Europe delivers. The Americans are disappointed at the European response to his "surge" of troops into Afghanistan. I recall at a recent Nato meeting an American saying that Europeans seemed, for the most part, content with gestures.
France's Le Monde drew the conclusion that there are fundamental differences between the United States and Europe. "Bush wasn't the problem; Obama isn't the solution...the allies are discovering that the misunderstandings go beyond personalities."
But outsiders often see a Europe focused on structures and procedures. In her recent interview with the Financial Times, Catherine Ashton spoke of some of the changes she is trying to introduce. "At the UN in New York," she said, "there used to be a Council delegation (representing EU governments) and a Commission delegation operating side by side but separately. Now we've brought them together." It may be an important step, but it says nothing to the outside world. The Financial Times concluded, "the problem is that the Europeans are obsessed with symbols rather than substance".
Whether Europe speaks with one voice may be the wrong question. I am not certain that Washington demands a single voice. It looks for something else. A willingness to commit, to deliver. That can involve a number of nations. It does not have to be all 27 countries in the EU.
Influence, too, may not derive from countries acting together. Turkey, on its own, is hugely influential. Brazil is listened to. India commands attention.
In this debate it is not clear what Europe wants influence for and whether the European public wants to shoulder the responsibility of acting decisively on the world stage.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~46~RS~)
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When it comes to 'World Affairs' as the USA Presidential snub to Spain's 6 monthly EU Presidency clearly illustrates the European Union as a 'strength/respect through unity' exercise is a figment of lively political imaginations in Paris-Berlin-Brussels!
When it comes to 'Political Mandate' as the 55% No-Turnout snub by Citizen Voters in the EU's 2009 Elections clearly illustrates the European Union as a representative body is a figment of over-ambitious centralisers in Paris-Berlin-Brussels!
When it comes to supra-National 'Commitment' as the snub of the NATO request for additional Armed Forces for Afghanistan by the European Union clearly illustrates Paris-Berlin-Brussels' policy of disengagement from traditional post-WW2 alliances is effectively altering the 'Balance of Power'. The unconsulted European Citizenry may find its 'Leadership' have created inexplicable and irretrievable rifts with Europe's Historic, greatest, longterm ally!
Beware, beware, beware Europe! An unrepresenttaive European Union is leading you along a path with unknown and dangerous ramifications for your safety, security and prosperity.
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Is it just me or would that photo not look out of place advertising a new Carry On film?
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So you want Europe to get off its backside and do something? Good luck with that.
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It's increasingly unlikely the the President of the most powerful country on earth could find any common ground with the quality of leaders he finds in the EU. None of them command respect from any of the larger players on the world stage, and in fact are regularly abused by " banana republic " statesnmen of the Mugabe calibre. The lack of common resolve, fauning diplomacy and poor record of integrity inherent amongst the EU's leaders makes for a lack of influence and respect from the rest of the world which regards them as sabre rattlers who will surrender at the slightest excuse.
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"It is difficult for Europe to always speak with one voice when there are clear differences between countries."
Same applies to the "United" STATES of America.
Perhaps the USA should now be called the DSA
Disunited States of America.
There! Europe doesn't look so disunited now does it!
Just because the USA wants to remain a third world country without national healthcare we don't have to follow them down into that cess pit.
Neither do we have to follow them into social fracture, or financial slavery to China.
Europe looks better by the day. Greece is just symptomatic of a global condition. There are STATES in the USA far more broke than Greece.
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A prime and recent example of the little importance of the EU to the USA is the announcemet of the Romanian Premier that the US Anti-Ballistic Missile Shield will now be relocated into Romania instead of Poland. Where was the EU in any discussions that Romania and the USA had about this major political and military initiative - the EU probably never figured in the minds of the Americans who cannot be bothered with talking to the rear-end of the horse when they can just as well go speak the head. They have sussed the EU for what it is ..... a meaningless construct.
One can hardly blame the Americans for not bothering with having their President go over to Europe for a summit that was called by the Spanish Premier who would have been flanked by the President of the EU on one side and the President of the Commission on the other side.
The EU has got itself into a bureaucratic fudge appointing colourless people to perform colourless and meaningless jobs and that speaks volumes for what the EU has become ..... a Club for unelected bureaucrats to strut the world stage as if they have vast importance. Unfortunately for these bureaucrats, they represent the frontage of an artificial organisation that is undemocratic, unrepresentative of the peoples of Europe and which is of ever-diminishing importance in the real world.
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I believe that the United States has a lot to learn from Europe, in particular about creating a real social safety net and a cohesive society.
That being said, whatever the reasons for Obama not attending the EU summit, one should understand that the European Union (EU) as an institution (not to be confused with Europe as an entity) has not been good for American interests. The only thing that the EU has done that is in American interests is to create uniform product standards across Europe, which makes it easier to export to Europe with economies of scale. But this benefit is for the whole world, not just America.
Recall though, that the EU has little to do with supporting U.S. efforts in Afghanistan - that is NATO and individual member states. Likewise, at the UN Security Council, it is Britain and France, not the EU, that find common ground with the U.S. to advance policies. Whatever the merits of invading Iraq, it was some individual European countries, such as Britain, Denmark, Poland, etc., that helped the U.S., not the EU. When it comes to culture and trade, people think of German cars, French wine, and Italian opera - there is no EU identity.
However, the EU has done various things very much not in America's interest. That is not to say that the main reason was to weaken America, but this was the effect in part. Some examples:
1. In trading with EU member states, America is at a disadvantage, as there is free trade between all EU states, so that even a lower-cost American exporter may not be able to compete because of tariffs.
2. For Americans working in Europe, the establishment of the EU has been a huge disadvantage. When applying for a job in any EU country, an American now has literally dozens of nationalities who will have an easier time to take that job without restrictions or bureaucratic red tape.
3. The same applies to Americans wanting to set up a business in Europe.
4. The creation of the euro has created a credible threat to the use of the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency. Countries such as Iran have tried to use the euro as a reserve currency given their issues with the U.S. But, more fundamentally, a shift away from the dollar as the world's reserve currency would have real economic costs for the U.S.
To make things concrete though, let's imagine an American trying to apply for a job in the UK, competing with a German. 40 years ago, the American would have been given preference. 20 years ago, the American and the German would have been treated equally. Today, the German, BY LAW, is given preference over the American.
So, maybe if the EU wants Obama's attendance so much, then it should start acting in such a way that is less against American interests.
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Come on folks, wake up !
We have had an EEC ("Economic Community")for a long time. That bit works.
Everythng else is just ridiculous.
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Mr. Hewitt,
I mean no offense to you or any other Europeans when I say this, but speaking as an American the European Union's respective governments seem all to obsessed with words and not the actions to support them. It is not so much that Europeans tend to focus on symbols more than actions, so much as it seems that the European governments seem to feel that those symbols are a substitute for actions.
Take for instance Gordon Brown sending five hundred more soldiers to Afghanistan. To an American such as myself this was something of an insult, particularly when the troop levels in that nation were due to be increased to what? A eighty thousand? perhaps more? It may have been a huge symbol for a European to behold, but to an American it is an action so small as to seem purposefully spiteful. While I personally do not hold those sympathies there are some who are vocal on the subject.
Finally, this disengagement as you put it from NATO is perfectly acceptable for Europe so long as the EU nevermore needs assistance from the United States or Canada during time of conflict. History seems to suggest otherwise. Furthermore it puts a great deal of strain on trans-Atlantic diplomacy as much of the goodwill between the United States and Europe came from being such close allies for so long. Remove the fact that we are allies and much of the American people would see little reason to keep diplomatic ties. While that seems like a threat the idea is actually quite benign. If you tell your neighbor to go away, he may not be there when you need him. In this case, if you wish to get a resolution passed in the UN or wish to get a more favorable trade agreement.
That sword cuts two ways, Mr. Hewitt. It is the decision, being sovereign nation-states, of the EU members to either hold to or abandon their alliances with the United States, Canada, and each other. I simply hope that whatever their decision we do not all regret it later.
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Does this mean Europe doesn't like President Obama anymore? That elevates him in my opinion all by itself. He's turning out to be quite a tiger (no pun or reference to TW intended.) Let's see, Europe doesn't like him, China doesn't like him, the Russians don't like him, the Arabs don't like him, Iran doesn't like him, Hugo Chavez and his loony left friends in south america don't like him. Now as far as I can tell, there are still a few left he does not seem to have offended. India, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, and surprisingly even Canada. But he's only been in office one year so we have to give him more time.
As much concern as I have about Barack Obama, I would not trade him for any leader of any other country in the world. He is far smarter than any of them even if he is less experienced. I don't think there is another one even in his league when it comes to intelligence. Now if he could only get our Main Street economy moving again things would look much better for him and his party. I think that will have to wait until Europe's economies finally implode. Yep, he's looking a lot better to me all of a sudden. Don't you Europeans long for the good old days when you had Geroge Bush to kick around? :-)
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It is hard to see a reason for the President to deal with Europe as one entity, after all, the EU is made up of sovereign nations. This "speaking with one voice" means that they all have to agree, for the US to get something. Rather by dealing with each nation individually, the US can make deals with individual nations. That way if nations x, y, and z are for it and nations a,b,c are against, the US is not prevented from making a deal. Besides,the United States is not motivated to encourage the EU.
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A couple (indulgently rambling, as it turned out) thoughts - The "problem" such as it is (and I think there is one) is that Europe to the extent it identifies itself as such is nursing fantasies of grandeur largely on the terms of other "big" civilizations - rather than on defining its aspirations in uniquely, identifiably European terms. A respectful (or as close as it's possible to approximate coming from someone with an American passport) suggestion: consider engaging less in "superpower"-themed yearning to meet or beat the Americans at their own game, and explicitly focus on what makes Europe Europe. That is to say: why should European societies want to play out the same adolescent boys' fantasies of conquest that America enjoys? This is irresponsibility and ugliness. Let's not desire more militarism and murder in the world. I believe there could and should be the ambition of being "the responsible adults" in world affairs - and sadly the field is wide open for dominating that sphere without competition. As far as a clear and unique prestigious pinnacle of excellence for Europe goes, this is something that really is a good - and therefore a political goal which genuinely has the potential to command consensus throughout the various member states, if advanced lucidly. Being comprehensively and wisely responsible is a much more solidly prestigious and robustly effective characteristic than some might carelessly insist - the sphere just needs opening up and overt, unapologetically forceful definition. Really it's easy for any society to indulge in the many bad elements of human nature and let anger and ugliness take over the aspirational agenda - par for the proverbial course. As best I understand, the point of European union is that it is possible to do the things that have never been done and should have been and still can. By the way, when the Americans insist they like action not talk, this is the best time to dismay them by giving them what they are asking for. If Europe calls that bluff and directly, clearly asks for Obama's partnership on a big and good new project, it will put them on the back foot and they will not be able to deliver. It wouldn't be difficult or dangerous in our time to rap America's knuckles in front of the entire world - at present, to reveal the "pragmatic President" to be not the pragmatist he says he is, but another kind of pragmatist entirely. If he doesn't want to show up at the table and prefers to send text messages to "Europe" from his airplane, it's no longer a low blow to cut him down to size and ask him to make good on his empty words. The Americans ask for commitment because they won't deliver that themselves - it's never happened in history (apart from arming the IDF unconditionally). But regardless of the exact tone to take, to keep a hawk's eye on the USA at this point is a costly mistake. The time is ripe to cut out the middleman and deal with the Chinese directly as far as the money goes. For the rest, if Europe stops worrying about what the world thinks of Europe, the world will think perfectly highly of Europe, and the Americans are no exception - indeed they've a unique weakness here which they can only guard against by posturing if other societies allow themselves needlessly to be unnerved - or to be impressed with expensive materiel that really can only kill so many millions of people. It's better not to use it anyway; why not want something else?
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Why would America be interested in what Monsieur Rumpey or Baroness Ashton have to say when they have their very own empty suit (Obama)?
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I wouldn't really call what happened a snub-Europeans are always talking about the latest snub it seems. Is it so hard to believe that there really was just more important things to take care of back in the US?
As for the EU, I'm actually a proponent of the organization, though I've been disappointed that it seems to have added to the confusion of who is the go-to guy in Europe. I'm still of the opinion that the EU is Europe's version of the American government under the Articles of Confederation.
Doctuer_Eiffel, the US is far more united politically than Europe is under the EU; we've had 200 + years of Federal government which means we've got the experience y'all don't have. Even if we seem disunited or uncivil to you, we're almost without exception united in our respect for our Constitution regardless of our squabbles.
Also, who ever suggested that Europe should follow in our footsteps on healthcare; in fact we're arguing over the exact opposite.
Lastly, the reason some states have larger budget issues than Greece is because some US states have larger economies than Greece! Perhaps all states should be required by law to have a balanced budget every fiscal year-my own state already operates that why by state law.
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Did President Obama really snub Europe, or was he busy with other things?
He doesn't come across as the snubbing type to me.
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Europe is too predictable. We know what they are going to do 90% of the time and what they bring to the table they will bring regardless of US actions. They become marginalized. For instance, everyone feels 'snubbed' by Obama not coming to Europe. What exactly are the consequences to that snub? Perhaps some sharply worded retorts, but that's about it. In a week, it'll be business as usual. If he did show up, what would be the reward? A couple of photo ops and in a week, business as usual. The EU is so large and unwieldy that it is predictable and something that you can predict, you have no need to worry about.
It's like African-Americans in US elections. They always vote the same way, so there is no reason to court them. By being too predictable, they have marginalized themselves. By Europe being this giant inertial mass, it has marginalized itself.
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The President of the United States does not have time for ceremonial hand holding with Europeans right now, he has very important matters to deal with that need his urgent attantion. Besides, if he visited Europe now, someone might try to tap him for helping bail out Greece. The Europeans can drink their toasts, make their useless forgettable speeches, eat their lunches without his presence. Right now he's in the political fight of his life and his stimulus package isn't creating jobs. How would it look if in the middle of all this he went off on a junket to Europe? Just like if he'd gone to Hiltonhead Island to play golf while Louisiana was drowning in Katrina.
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No.8
Spot on, thank you, my thoughts entirely.
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Very good blog Gavin and I think you assessed things correctly. Indeed, the notion that Obama and EU leaders would engage in hug fests every couple months was delusional. As President he naturally has to put US interests first and needs to be mindful of supplying his political enemies with too much ammo. With his domestic agenda wobbly (i.e. healthcare) he is already labelled a socialist and if he spent too much time in europe the Republicans will have a field day painting him as a bolshevik. To be seen in the same photo frame as the clown Zapatero would be too much.
Doctor Eufel @5. Is that the best you can do? At least try to be clever or original. 'Disunited'? Funny, but not in the way you intended.
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Obviously many of the above commentators would benefit from history lessons. Starting with the coal unions and the subsequent treaty of Rome that laid a foundation to what is now the European Union, this institution has provided its members with something they had not known for centuries: lasting peace. This may be a by-product of economic co-operation but nevertheless it is an extremely important one. The achievements of the European Union both economically as well as politically are not negligible - the introduction of the Euro, free movements of goods an people in its borders, propagation of values such as human rights, ... - these are admirable achievements even more so as they were not coerced but achieved deliberately by its members - and this may be something quite new in world history. What's more, the EU is setting an example that is imitated across the world (African Union, ASEAN etc). Of course it's not all that perfect and much work remains to be done. But I wish for once that all the petty bickering would stop and that we would be able to focus on what is really important and start to appreciate this institution. And who cares if Obama comes or does not come to the summit? We have learnt from past American presidents that talking to his administration can be as effective if not more effective as you may actually be understood (Bush).
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12. an excellent post.
however perhaps cuba and some other south american countries need some different advice.
"indeed they've a unique weakness here which they can only guard against by posturing if other societies allow themselves needlessly to be unnerved "
im not sure this will help with embargo's or military airspace incursions!
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I think it would be great if the EU finished their Constitution and worked to form a European UNION with an elected President that would serve at least a sufficient period of time that there was continuity, none of this rotating 6 month crap. Hey, at least we remember the Chairman of the ECB, on second thought its just his name not for anything remarkable.
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As a European living in the US, I am very concious of the clear ignorance of a great majority of the American population to the European Union.
Europe should treat Obama the way he treats it, as being irelevant and not worth dealing with.
Just tired of having things like socialised medicine being demonised over here and at the same time watch distraught patients in hospital whose main concern is that they have no medical insurance.
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expatinnetherlands
Beg to differ; 'we' haven't had a European Economic Community for quite a few years!
It has been a European Union since Maastricht (1992) and since that era it has most definitely not 'worked' to the benefit of Europeans.
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The ridiculous amount of EU Presidencies really needs addressing, Commission President should be the only one.
The rotating Presidency should be done away with, and the rest renamed. President of the Council = Chairman of the Council
President of the Parliament = Speaker of the Parliament
None of those positions are really what I would call Presidential.
The EU should also stop being so concerned about people talking to it, on matters of trade, yes of course. Environment, sure. Other stuff, Not really.
Ashton is there for when countries want to phone about those issues, or when Europe decides it wants to do something and needs someone to talk to the rest of the world.
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I'm with BienvenueEnLouisiana (#14). "Snub" implies an intent to insult. I don't believe President Obama had any such intent. He's a serious man and has more important things to do. Americans on the whole are practical people. I expect he would want to know, as I do, exactly what the the purpose of the conference was to be, whether its purpose was important to the US, and whether it would likely achieve its purpose.
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I have to agree here with the eurosceptics. The EU leadership is a mess. Spain, Rompuy, Barroso, Merkel, Sarkozy. I'm fed up.
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Magnos Iacobos
Re #9
There is no doubt that 500+ extra UK Troops compared to the USA 30,000+ additions must seem infinitesimal & near irrelevant.
However, for the UK those 500 represent a significant additional commitment to the 9,000 Forces personnel already there.
Particularly when measured against the backdrop that the 9,000 are 'frontline' combat operational troops.
That is in stark contrast to the actual infinitesimal 'frontline' forces provided by the rest of NATO: With the honourable exceptions of Denmark, Netherlands, Poland there are no other combat operational forces from NATO despite some 25,000 other European armed forces being in Afghanistan. The next largest operational frontline forces are the Canadians & ANZACS.
It is true that Armed Forces of various Nations have suffered casualties over the years, however, it is as well to recall none were in full-on combat operations. The Taliban/AlQueda were striking at soft targets. So, there is the despicable example of France which will not even allow its helicopters to go to combat zones to pick-up US-UK wounded! Germany is restricted by out-dated post-WW2 military restrictions, however, for the last decade it has used those constraints to avoid commitment.
In short, if you think the UK's PM Brown sending 500 extra combat soldiers is insulting to the USA then how do you think the British Armed Forces feel about their supposed neighbouring European allies!?
I still have contacts in the military and the word 'cowardice' comes up so often when discussing most of the European NATO partners that it is a small wonder and a credit to their professionalism there has not been a serious incident between US-UK Forces personnel and those who talk-the-talk and quite literally do damn all.
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Benefactor is absolutely right.
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The question should be; is the U.S.A. a ally of europe?
Keep in mind that the actions of the past they keep refering to where only in there own interest.
With the "American Service-Members' Protection Act" The United States is treatening to invade the Netherlands.
This and other actiosn of the U.S.A. has shown disregard of internatinal law.
Manny have refered to suporting the invasion of Iraq; the U.S.A. has either knowingly misinformed or bullied countries into suporting this illegal war.
Are these the "allies" you like to have?
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It's obviously in the interests of the US to have a disunited Europe, just as it is in the interests of anybody in any situation that the competition is disunited. If the EU wants to increase its influence it has to stop outsiders doing deals with individual countries or regions and prevent individual countries within Europe from competing against each other.
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I think president Obama is beset by difficulties at home right now, and that he needs to focus on "first things first." If he can't manage to bring his own party around, jump-start public opinion and get something done on jobs and health care, he will be in big trouble. Sure, it's a snub when a guest of honor says he won't come to your meeting, but everyone should consider the circumstances. Also, the EU is a relatively new phenomenon on the global political scene, seems to have some domestic matters to sort out, and may need to grow into the job of occupying a place at the head table. Confusion about "who speaks for Europe"is an example of growing pains. I was just reading last night a very wise statement that there comes a time in transitions when people get scared of changes they have set in motion and run for cover, scrambling back to what they know rather than pushing forward into what they want. Europe and the US seem to be in that stage right now, as far as their "body politic" is concerned. We need patience and fortitude. And we need not to turn on our old friends.
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"The event in Madrid in May was to have been the highlight of Spain's six-month EU presidency, ... " (from the first news item linked by Mr. Hewitt)
This seems to be part of the problem. When there is a new "president" every six months, will each one ask for a summit with the US president attending, in order to "highlight" their term?
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President Obama has more pressing issues like the unlikely hood of getting reelected.The EU will soon learn that the president has little concern for anything outside his own image or his agenda for turning the USA into the same socialist nightmare that is the EU.
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cmulder003
Re #30
"..American Service Members Protection Act.. USA threatening to invade Netherlands.."
Oh come on!
Do listen to your Doc & start taking the medication!
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I'm not surprised. This might sound awful but a couple of main reasons Europe and U.S became allies were
1. Western immigration in U.S.
2. WWII connection.
With both these factors fading rapidly there is very little hope for continued alliance between U.S Europe in the same level as it had been. As far EU's position in the world - Regional power: YES!! World power: hmm??
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CBW: "Do listen to your Doc & start taking the medication!"
Actually cmulder003 is slightly closer to the truth then your denial. American Service Members Protection Act does say that any American detained by the ICC should be rescued by any means possible. Although I seriously doubt it includes a full scale invasion.
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If President Obama had someting SO IMPORTANT to do that he could not spend a couple more hours in Copenhagen to courteously exchange a few words with the European leaders who had painstakingly set up this meeting, then he has chosen his collaborators very poorly.
The art of international diplomacy demands that you appreciate the fine points of other cultures in order to put all your interlocutors at ease. There should be people in Obama's team capable to explain this to him. If the perceived snub was deliberate, then Europeans are at a loss to explain its causes. If not, we are once again dealing with an incompetent American president. I am inclining to think the later.
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I thought it was a giant snub from Scotland and Britain, when they let that jailed terrorist go on "compassion" charges. There are some residents here who probably still have not forgiven them for letting the terrorist murderer out (he showed no mercy or compassion for their families).
It was a great snub to President Obama when we lost the Olympics in Chicago on the first try. I did not think we would necessarily win, but I at least thought we would not get last. That hurt. Personally, I believe the reason we lost the Olympics was 1)Brazil has never had them and 2) Celebrity overdrive. The Olympics commitee was blown away and overwhelmed by all the celebrities the USA brought there. Oprah probably scared them.
Then, President Obama got the Noble Peace Prize, even though we are in the middle of two wars. A Noble Peace Prize gives the USA justification for what we are doing in fighting terrorism for our and our allies self defense. It is recognition that the American people are for peace.
So, there have been recent snubs, but some recent applauding, too, such as the Noble Peace Prize. Everything goes both ways.
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I read with the greatest amusement some of the comments on here.
Firstly, there is no such thing as a United Europe because the EU exists illegally. It is undemocratic and was born without a mandate from many of the countries conned into being part of this monster.
Secondly, Europe certainly does not speak on my behalf on anything, I don't recognise it and I certainly do not support it.
I am a subject of a sovereign nation, namely Great Britain. I am British and in no way a European.
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Snub or no snub, we need to work together to combat terrorism, which affects the entire world.
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an amazing world record: we, the European Union have the most presidents and bureaucrats of the world. wow. O.o
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"[Washington] looks for something else. A willingness to commit, to deliver."
This implied criticism of the EU is simplistic leaning towards disingenuous. If the "something else" that Washington wants is a willingness to commit to and to deliver a crime of aggression, such as we may be witnessing in the ongoing hearings of the Iraq Inquiry, then I would say the EU has been doing a fantastic job by not getting involved. Far from cursing the EU for inaction, I applaud it for not joining a thug in acts of mindless violence.
Perhaps the problem here is Gavin's and his media colleagues' need for excitement in their jobs? A war is far more interesting to report and analyse than a summit. This talk of influence and who's got it is inane gossip, particularly when the point of the supposed lust for influence cannot even be specified: "it is not clear what Europe wants influence for"!
"It is not clear ... whether the European public wants to shoulder the responsibility of acting decisively on the world stage."
Judging from the polls and protests clearly showing that the European public is not interested in pointless, endless, illegal wars; if this is what "acting decisively" implies, then no, we don't want it. Simple, really.
I think there is much less of a problem with the EU's influence, or lack thereof, than America-worshippers like to suggest.
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I cannot speak for President Obama nor for all Americans. I can say only this - most Americans believe that "action speaks louder than words". Opposed to genocide? Then send troops to Bosnia. Folks suffering in Haiti? Send food and medical supplies. Test one's mettle and technology? Place men on the moon. Work for peace and resolution? Support the United Nations. Assist impoverished countries? Create a "Peace Corps" which sends teachers and technicians to places in need. My parents left England (and Ireland and Wales) because of the stagnation in those countries. We call ourselves the "United" states, because, though not always agreeing politically, we DO agree that "all men are created equal... endowed with inalienable rights" - and we want to believe in those ideals -silly, perhaps - and naive - but we brought those ideals from the old world. And the EU? Words, words and more words - Is that what the EU is all about? What about ACTIONS?
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Norbert,
I doubt we have the most bureaucrats..
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Look closely at their expressions. It appears by the picture, they may all be suffering from the effects of gastroenteritis.
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Interesting, all these comments... One big difference is that Americans glorify their military and admire men in uniforms. The US has become more and more militarized, while Europe has gone the other way. Europeans have 0 enthusiasm for building empires and running wars in third world countries. They have "been there, done that" (the French, British, etc, colonial empires that collapsed with WW2). The Americans seem almost fanatical about that. And it is in that area the Americans are so bitter, which clearly shows in these comments. People in Europe are quite happy to waste money on "welfare" (=their fellow citizens) while the Americans, at least their representatives in Washington, never question the soon approaching one (American, with 12 zeros) trillion dollars they spend on "warfare".
Same thing with infrastructure. Compare a trip now and 20 years ago between major cities in Europe and the USA. Berlin-Paris-Madrid, say, vs Boston-NY-Miami or Seattle-San Francisco-LA. Where is the investment and choice and improvement?
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To "jeffzekas":
I loved the 60s. That's when I grew up. And you are still living there? Kennedy started the peace corps. Several countries in "old Europe" copied it! None protested. Your men on the Moon? Great, I was thrilled at the time. But that was then. And now? The Russians are the taxi drivers to the International Space Station. The American shuttles are fine unless they crash. And the last I heard, Obama postponed the new Moon program. Could it have anything to do with the perpetual wars being bad investments?
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In response to the posters who insist that not having universal health care proves that US is inferior to Europe or whomever. To assume that people here don't want poor people or unemployed people to have access to health care is stupid. We're already paying a larger percentage of GDP for health services than anybody. If Americans say we will not double that just so we can say we got universal health care you can just, well get over it. It is clear that the right thing is for all people in a country to have access to medical care. It is true that medical cost have gone up and continue to go up at a greater rate than other things. It is true that lawyers are the beneficiaries of lawsuits targeting medical practices, drugs, what ever. The Democrats proposal made no attempt to address that problem. We have a health care problem that is much more than universal coverage. I'm sorry if I don't think Europe is the guiding light. One has only to look a BBC's articles on NHS.
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Y'know, with the G7 meeting going on here in Canada and the G20 very soon in Toronto ... maybe he had something else to do. I like Europeans but they are so ego centric. Everything is perceived as a snub if it doesn't follow your customs. If you can shake your collective heads and enter the 21st century, we'd appreciate it over here, To get under people's skin more we, in North America, would certainly appreciate any help you could offer in South Afghanistan. There's the Yanks, the Brits and us looking after a very big and dangerous territory. We have lost over 130 personnel there. How many have the Germans lost with a population that's 5 times ours? It looks to us like NATO is falling apart due to lack of due diligence from Europe.
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Who exactly did President Obama snub? The EU is not a sovereign nation nor is it an ally of the U.S. or an organization of which the U.S. is a member. In spite of it's name it does not speak for a United Europe nor do the people of Europe get even a pretense of electing the EU's leader. It has no territory of it's own, no military of it's own, no ambassador it can recall, no American consulates to close or any American diplomatic staff to expel in protest. At best the EU represents a trading block we deal with, nothing more.
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"At best the EU represents a trading block we deal with, nothing more."
Scott0962 - I suggest you read up on the EU. Wikipedia is excellent.
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mtlcanuck @50,
Brave Canadians have spelt their blood on Europe's soil in two world wars.
Us Brits appreciate your sacrifices in Afghanistan, but we know that you'd be foolish to send your sons to fight for 'Europe' ever again.
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Hey Alice!
I hope your trolling HYS. Anyway, I know with the Romanian thing and all, your feeling a little feisty, maybe a little snubbed (since I don't want to be off topic we must mention snubbed). Anyway I was trolling a Scottish blog "Blether with Brian". I suggest you visit if you've never. They got a cool dude that hangs there, Old Nat. The rest of them I can't say. What is interesting is that they can get so bent out of shape over not having enough grit for the roads, an MP who's expense account was $3.OO to high, whether the cafeteria was misused, minimum alcohol pricing and so forth. They all hate every political party except the SNP and their hero is Megradi. (could cause some shit here). Anyway this one dude posted this in response to I don't know what but I thought you might find it amusing.
113. At 08:12am on 30 Jan 2010, gedguy2 wrote:
The effects of temperature change
At +40°C the Scots see the sun for the first time and climb in their fridges.
At +30°C most British hit the beaches, while the rest are stuck in traffic jams trying to get to the beach.
At + 20°C the Greeks are putting on their jumpers (if they can find them).
At + 15°C the Jamaicans turn the heating on (if they have it, of course).
At + 10°C the Californians start trembling because of the cold. The Russians are planting cucumbers in their dacha gardens.
At + 5°C your breath is visible. Italian cars don’t want to start. The Norwegians go swimming in the lake.
At 0°C in America the water gets frozen. In Russia water gets denser.
At - 5°C French cars won’t start.
At -10°C Geordies wear their tops at football matches.
At - 15°C your cat insists on sleeping in your bed. The Norwegians put their jumpers on.
At - 17.9°C in Oslo house owners turn the heating on. The Russians go to their dachas for the last time in the season.
At - 20°C American cars don’t want to start.
At - 25°C German cars don’t want to start. Jamaicans died out.
At - 30°C the UK government start being concerned about the homeless. The cat sleeps in your pajamas. The Russians complain about the weather; it’s too warm for winter.
At - 35°C in America it becomes too cold to think. Japanese cars don’t want to start.
At - 40°C you’re planning not to leave a hot bath for 2 weeks. Swedish cars don’t want to start.
At - 42°C European transport slows to a stand still. The Russians eat ice-cream in the streets.
At - 45°C the Greeks died out. The UK government legislate for the homeless.
At - 50°C eye-lids become frozen while you’re blinking. In Alaska they close their windows while having a shower.
At - 60°C polar bears migrate south.
At - 70°C Hell freezes over.
At - 73°C Finnish Special Forces evacuate Santa from Lapland. The Russians put on their hats (uszanka).
At - 80°C the Russians don’t take off their gloves, even while pouring vodka.
At - 100°C vodka freezes; the Russians are annoyed. They start drinking ethanol.
At - 105°C reports of ethanol shortages in Russia. The Russians are angry.
At - 114°C ethanol freezes; the Russians start playing Russian roulette.
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"At 8:48pm on 05 Feb 2010, Nossnevs wrote:
Interesting, all these comments... One big difference is that Americans glorify their military and admire men in uniforms. The US has become more and more militarized, while Europe has gone the other way. Europeans have 0 enthusiasm for building empires and running wars in third world countries. They have "been there, done that" (the French, British, etc, colonial empires that collapsed with WW2). The Americans seem almost fanatical about that. And it is in that area the Americans are so bitter, which clearly shows in these comments. People in Europe are quite happy to waste money on "welfare" (=their fellow citizens) while the Americans, at least their representatives in Washington, never question the soon approaching one (American, with 12 zeros) trillion dollars they spend on "warfare"."
I can tell you one part of military spending that Americans are getting increasingly fed up with: the money we spend on forces to defend Europe so our European allies can divert money from defense to social programs. It's high time Europe carried it's own water when it comes to defense.
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I think the next domino is getting into position to fall. Portugal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8501117.stm
It will not impliment necessary austerity plans to live within a manageable budget due to internal political pressues. Just like Greece, just like the rest of Europe. The days of the lavish European universal social safety nets only they in the world enjoy are coming to a close I think.
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Well said, Scott0962. If it wasn't for the Canadian commitment to NATO to keep the North Atlantic submarine free, we'd have tons of money to spread around. Soon we're going to have an Arctic Fleet that will be pretty much the only presence of the Western World in the High Arctic. I, for one, certainly want to see more participation from Europe. I even live in a "European" style social welfare system and we (35 million) can find the money. Where's France, Germany, Italy, Belgium and the rest of the usual suspects? C'mon ... if you want to live free there's a price to be paid.
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@ 54
Ahoy there!
MaudDib, gedguy2 and oldnat are our people :o)))) I mean, this blog old-timers. I'll check it out there one of these days, but if you visit there can safely pass hello from AliceinWonderland and web and all, anyway they'll figure out at once. Haven't talked to either from autumn- summer, approximately? but both nice chaps. In fact I was remembering gedguy2 recently when was moderated over the youtube link which previosly passed through here direct, and where I claimed I think gedguy looks exactly like the chap in the big fluffy Caucasus hat in the song about sultan and his three wives and he said he is surprised himself because he exactly does! Feeling is believing. I'll ive you directions later on how to see that clip (I thought it fitting for the burka discussion).
The joke ab temperaturres is a very quality expanded version, wow. I only heard shorter versions of it before. In Russia it also ended up traditionally by "absolute zero" (forgot what it is in physics. -272? something?) when "Russia wins the European football championship."
But then we did win something once, and the joke became void :o) and temperatures began to be decrasing further.
I'd add that "at -6 WebAliceinwonderland closes up dacha season (when it's steady for a week) (in the day :o))) (like this year)
- but her neighbours start planting garlic! No joke, it's "for under-winter to be planted".
I don't do that, haven't figured out the purpose :o))) but it's a mass Russian dacha mania at around -5 or minus 7.
I only did tulips and narcissus planting this year in the dacha at -6 :o)))) The thing is the ground isn't yet frozen deep through, only the uper crust, so one can.
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"I can tell you one part of military spending that Americans are getting increasingly fed up with: the money we spend on forces to defend Europe so our European allies can divert money from defense to social programs."
The answer to this from most Europeans would be: Goodbye!
If you'd care to read the news (such as on BBC online), you might notice that it is the Americans who want a presence in Europe much more than the other way round. Is it Poland that is designing a hare-brained scheme to position anti-missile missiles in Europe? No, it's an American idiocy.
Why do some European countries support such idiocy? $$$! The US spends vast amounts of money on military spending and this dosh is great for smaller economies such as the "great allies" Poland, Romania and the Czech Republic. Just as the US tried to buy UN Security Council member Chile (amongst others) into supporting its war on Iraq, so it is buying, or trying to buy, its "allies" even now.
And with that extra money, we can afford even more social programmes!
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#55 Scott0962
You should ah been here during Viet (fg) Nam. No parades, not crowds, maybe dog-do-do thrown in you face. Coming home with no legs and you're called a baby killer. Jane Fonda? Don't get me started. You have to be an American to understand an American and that doesn't work either.
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The World has changed! Europe has lost its relevance and clout, for heaven's sake. Even banana republics now push the EU around with impunity. America and the BRICs are all that matter, it seems.
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I believe that we Europeans, including myself being Norwegian decent should pay back our WWII debt to the Americans; the American tax payer would certainly have more funds in the coffers to pay for the little spat they are dealing with now. Maybe they should stop all funding American give to foreign countries that are so pompous today. The blood the Americans shed for the Europeans was enormous. In reality the countries who were the culprits of WWII don’t think much of the Americans they lost to and the countries that were protected and supported by American [which has never been paid back just forgiven] are not supportive either. It is a lose lose situation for the Americans as I see it.
Think about it, during WWII the average daily loss of their lives was over 3000 men. But what the heck that was in the past and Europeans live in freedom that was fought with those Americans, [one of which was my father]. Europeans cry and cover their heads at the least bit of bloodshed, they give only token support yet they harbor those who are bound to destroy even their own democracies. Europeans don’t fight for anything that does not help themselves and are the first to have their hands out in tough times. For the most part they seem very socialistic caught up in their own overwhelming political struggles of buying votes with free services for their constituents. The European Union has become a satellite counties grouped together to promote a few very wealthy individuals. America still opens its doors to the suppressed.
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@MaudDip: German soldiers returning to Germany after WWII were also not greeted with parades. It happens when you're on the side of the vicious, ruthless, murderous aggressors.
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#50 mtlcanuck. Yep, NATO is certainly suffering from a lack of due diligence from someone.
So NATO is an acronym for North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and Afghanistan is located someway from the North Atlantic, and is a land locked country so is unlikely to be sending its navy into the North Atlantic.
So...what exactly is the connection between Afghanistan and the North Atlantic?
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52. At 9:43pm on 05 Feb 2010, Gheryando wrote:
"At best the EU represents a trading block we deal with, nothing more."
"Scott0962 - I suggest you read up on the EU. Wikipedia is excellent."
OK, I've read it and I stand by my opinion.
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#44 jeffzekas. Do you have any connection at all to the real world?
If so, perhaps you can explain why the Pentagon developed a computer model which purported to demonstrate that the life of 1 US marine was equivalent to the lives of 80,000 Rwandans. Based, in part, on this technological advice the western world sat back and watched (or rather chose not to watch) some 800,000 Rwandans get chopped up.
The we have the case of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge who managed to butcherabout 30% of the Cambodian population all the while benefitting from British and American support.
We have the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians whose fate cannot even be described by Congress unless it upsets someone somewhere.
Maybe, just maybe, things are not always as you would like to think.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The EU in it's present form is weaker than Articles of Confederation that formed the basis for the first American government. If "Europe" is ever to live up to it's potential as a great power it will be necessary to replace the present structure of sovereign states and a weak EU with one which a strong EU and weak nation-states similar to the American federal system. That would of course require the nations of Europe, like the American states, to give up their sovereignty, either as a deliberate act or by the slow erosion of the EU chipping away at national soveriegnty and power bit by bit until there's nothing left to surrender but the idea of sovereignty itself.
When that happens the EU will be a force to be reckoned with but that time is not yet. For now the worst thing the EU can do to retaliate over a perceived snub is to harass American businesses that trade in Europe or make air travel to Europe more difficult for Americans (at the risk of losing tourist dollars). Ooooo, scary.
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MaudDib, and MA (if cruising around)
Check out this; all this is irrelevant :o))) I came across a very nice song on youtube on "what happened to the sub?" - "she drowned".
I listened :o) the whole previous night, about 20-30 times :o))) Then I found the same song but not the chap singing it on stage but a clip with Kursk sub crew made on it, and Putin there as well (good that you can't read Russian commentary below).
Well I put the song translation below both clips, in the comments.
So, to get it, dial in youtube search line
DDT_Klip_Kolesnikov (that's group DDT and Russian understanding of how to write the word "a clip" in English :o)))
Kolsenikov is the captain who wrote a letter there, obtained later.
The name of the person who placed is is varki1 duration 4:40
The other one is found when you dial
DDT - Kapitan Kolesnikov
3:45 minutes placed by Kappitb
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60. At 10:51pm on 05 Feb 2010, MaudDib wrote:
#55 Scott0962
"You should ah been here during Viet (fg) Nam. No parades, not crowds, maybe dog-do-do thrown in you face. Coming home with no legs and you're called a baby killer. Jane Fonda? Don't get me started. You have to be an American to understand an American and that doesn't work either."
I am an American. I graduated high school the year Saigon fell and I'm well aware of the mood of the country then and the excesses of the anti-war movement. And I agree with you about Hanoi Jane.
The country has grown up a bit since Vietnam. You will notice that the anti-war crowd is considerably more civil these days. They recognize that it is the politicians who make wars, our men and women in unform merely fight them. Ranting at soldiers is counter-productive because it makes the protestors look bad, not the soldiers. The men and women who serve in today's military are all volunteers and deserving of our respect and gratitude for their service and sacrifice.
I'm sorry the guys who served in Nam didn't get parades but it wasn't the same as WWII where they fought until the war was over and then came home in triumph. Guys were shipped back piecemeal as their tours were up and there was little enthusiasm for a parade at the end when the politicians sold out our Vietnamese allies. It was not our soldiers' fault we didn't achieve victory, they won every battle but weren't allowed to win the war. They too deserve our thanks and respect for answering their country's call and putting their lives on the line. (Don't get me started on the amnesty that let the draft dodgers come home from Canada.)
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Re: # 55 -- This old chestnut that "Americans are tired" of paying to "defend Europe" is meaningless on the face of it. If you actually had wanted to engage with European issues you would have realized that anyone in any of the European countries in question would ask why the US forces are still in their country if this is so contrary to US interests - don't whine about how much it costs to colonize a continent and then expect to be thanked for not leaving. Unbelievable.
In general these posts are predominantly by Americans (I'm guilty of that too), and the tone of these posts is more often like a child's fantasies of another world than engagement with reality. I point this out because it is characteristic not only of silly internet posts but of Americans' conception of the world in general. It's all a storybook fantasy - fiction - in the American consciousness. Americans love to daydream - imagining they will be rich someday and voting for their future selves as a kind of encouraging jump start ("the American dream"). And it's fun for them to play pretend and imagine what the world might be like in other far-off lands. When you are having fun, it spoils it to have to do work, so the idea of reading or learning about what these places that aren't America are like isn't part of the game. I've been an American for a while now, even longer than I've been alive, and even I still can't believe my eyes when I see stuff like posts 7 & 9, here, which seem to presuppose that it's "Europe's" reason for existence to provide help for America when it decides to do something - like magical faeries who grant wishes to Californians. So when the US engages with the world it does so on the basis of making stuff up about whom it's doing things with, and whom it's doing things to. Americans think they're off on a picnic in the country, and a million people die. This is a bull in a china shop which thinks it's dancing a sexy tango with Ava Gardner in a smoky club in Havana, but is actually just insanely thrashing through a hail of smashed porcelain and splinters, alone under harsh fluorescent lighting as the humans are trying to figure out what to do in the parking lot. It's disgusting when people carelessly misappropriate serious clinical terms to use them to shame people they know, but I would not be doing precisely that if I were to characterize America as an autistic society. There's no ability to conceive that the "other places" are real. The other people don't have emotions - if they did, they might react like Americans would if someone invaded America when America invades them. But no, they'll enjoy it a great deal because that's the job of the enabling, functional minor characters in a hero's epic tale of himself. None of this is to say that Americans are not responsible for the death they rain from the heavens. It's a predominant feature of human nature that people refuse to be conscious of the terrible things they know they are doing so that they can enjoy the rewards of irresponsibility while claiming safe harbor. No one is fundamentally unaware of what is happening in the world. We are all of us responsible for our minds and for whom we have chosen to become. We never stop making choices. If we are stupid, if we are ignorant, it is a choice to be so for which we are responsible. Nobody is born intelligent. If you were too lazy to read as a child, if you haphazardly created your intelligence, if you won't double-check your thoughts to become responsible, if you have no interest in learning or in continually becoming a more aware, better person over the course of your life, then you are responsible for these choices. Any night after work a grown man can decide to open a book instead of picking up the TV remote. We never stop making choices.
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The US has difficulties to understand the EU because it is a concept that indeed is difficult to grasp. Not quite a state, not quite just an institution. It's a bit of a cliché, but the word hybrid is still the best one to describe this project of unity in diversity. Those who want reality to be always described in terms of black and white, will always find it difficult to accept the EU.
People are fast to criticize the EU, but they forget that as an operational concept it has only been in existence for little over 50 years, which is really nothing in the larger historical context, particularly if we take into account what preceded it (xenophonic madness and genocide anyone?).
I'm always amazed that, with our historical baggage, we can actually keep talking and struggling to find common solutions in a peaceful manner among Europeans. Yes, sometimes it results in an awful waste of time and resources, but isn't peace worth the price?
People must reconcile themselves with the fact that the EU is not just work in progress, but also the result of forces pulling in opposite directions: national interests on the one hand and the common European good on the other. Sometimes the result is more unity, sometimes more division, sometimes just diversity. That's who we are.
The EU will never be like the US, or any other country in the world, and that's fine. We don't have to imitate anybody. Our chosen path is innovative, challenging, revolutionary, unique, imperfect. It's good that we keep trying, and those who want out of it, well, they are always welcome to leave and let the rest get on with their vision (it is sometimes a bit tiresome to hear the nagging when no better alternatives are presented, unless of course it's the "free-for-all" pre-EU Europe that they want; or a Europe dominated by a few imperial powers, some of which have clearly not yet gotten used to their more humble place at the table... Well, not for me, thank you!).
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Alice
You see what happened to my #67. It got quashed. Won't allow a fair fight and that's all I ask for. But it wasn't referred so that's a good thing. Do you think the mods know morris code?
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10. At 3:41pm on 05 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"... Now as far as I can tell, there are still a few left he does not seem to have offended. India, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, and surprisingly even Canada."
__________
Not so much. The government of Canada loathes President Obama. They are so scared of him, it's laughable. But they don't dare say anything out loud, both because of the national interest in not upsetting the neighbours, and because Stephen Harper knows very well that the overwhelming majority of Canadians like President Obama far more than they like Stephen (don't-look-while-I-Krazy-Glue-Parliament-closed) Harper.
Agree with the rest of your comment, though. Agree with him or not, President Obama has the goods intellectually.
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Hey Alice
Watched the You-Tube clip. You know what I thought about? The kids. It's the old guys and women who usually lead us into war but it's the kids who die. Now there wasn't a war here but it's the fact that the youth die for God and Country, not the old farts. I have a son whose nearly 30 but when he was 18 I thought about him having to go to war, Good God he couldn't change a flat tire. I think the UN should mandate that all wars be fought by people over 50. They've had their shot, no reason to kill a child.
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Yeah yeah yeah USA or is it the DSA now? Anyway while Europe is busy getting its house in order the USA is busy being dictated by its own stupor rich who (a nation unto themselves preaching nationalism and paying lip service to words like constitution) are busy pushing "their" nation into further debt by continuing to sell their nation out to China.
DEFICIT of UNITY
or United in Deficit?
NOT very united at all. The U.S. American stupor rich really are international. To keep the scam going they'll continue the myth that the two party system is actually democratic while placing nationalistic and party slogans all over the states and wave the holy flag while laughing up their sleeves.
If they were that united with the real patriots they would bring manufacturing home. United? I don't think so.
Once the superficial flag waving and ritual political dogma and hollow nationalism is swept aside the carcass of a sinking ship is readily visible. Hanging onto a constitution is no compensation for having a lifeboat.
What is it like being owned by China? Thought you could tame them with a dollar or two?
Europe looks good by comparison.
1st world health care system
not dog eat dog careless system.
The pretence of there being a snub is extremely patronising of the European press. The truth is everyone is secretly relieved there isn't another Presidential visit from the DSA. More trouble than it is worth.
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MaudDib, Morris code has been tried here before. dit dit dit dah dah dah you mean. I don't know that but I will learn if you need.
Alternatively, there is good ship flags signals way. That wasn't tried yet.
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i hate to say it world, where all in for a wide eyed awakening. i think i speak for all hard working people world wide. the powers to be, what ever you think maybe, have been there far to long. it is time for humankind to wrestle are selfs out of are hibernation. time to act.
timothy
California
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To try to clue in some of my fellow Americans (bitter sigh): "Europe" is not predominantly conceived of in terms of a unified culture, let alone with the idea that the European Union is going to become a single nation-state! These are not serious ideas, and it's primarily the drooling of pre-pubescent blog-post typists getting intermingled here - it'd really be best to wise up from this board-game notion of European countries as American states. You would not find many people in Europe, save a few lost Americans and other sundry hangers-on, who would imagine "Europe" as a single society or as a culture. The distinct characteristic of European societies - European civilization, if you like - is in the nature of a discrete society's awareness of its neighboring societies and the ability of people in one culture to have some genuine awareness of and appreciation for the cultural and social values of other, different European societies and nations, and what they mean. The classic observation of what happens when the Briton and the Frenchman meet in darkest Africa or wherever it may have been is a useful illustrative tool for the confused American's consideration. The British and French are imperial competitors - they both lost the Hundred Years' War against each other - they eye each other warily across the indeterminately secure expanse of the English Channel. But what happens when they cross paths in Peking? They have to remind themselves not to grin sincerely like over-enthusiastic schoolboy chums, because it is such a treat to have a conversation, on the other side of the world! That is when they are Europeans, and traditionally it's not until then. Probably the Englishman's favorite man of letters is Voltaire, and maybe over drinks he'll be silly enough to quote a couple lines in French to show the Frenchman he's not a complete savage. Europe is not a country. it was always much more than that.
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@christophergill
You did not understand my piece, make false assertions about me, and generally come across as bizarre e.g. you say that you have been an American longer than you have been alive - how is that possible?
Firstly, I am very aware of the rest of the world - yes, I am American but I do not feel guilty about it. I have lived for many years outside of the United States, including more than 4 years in EU countries, and I speak 6 languages.
I do NOT presuppose that it is Europe's reason for existence to help America when it decides to do something. Rather, my point was that the EU as an institution has taken various actions that harm America's interests, and none that enhance America's interests. Why then, should America want in any way to laud the EU as an institution? The EU is something that has to be dealt with, and I do not suggest that America not deal with the EU, but if America does not clap and smile and send a president to a celebratory summit when a group of countries get together to do things that harm American interests, don't be surprised!
Finally, most EU countries are also members of NATO, and being a member of NATO does have obligations. Otherwise, these countries should withdraw from NATO. Better to have a smaller NATO that really means something.
As I began my previous post here, there is much that America can learn from Europe. I am not some right-wing, Fox-news, tea-party person. Rather, I would like to see a U.S. that has a society much more like that of Canada: universal health care, more equitable Gini coefficient, less military spending in the medium term, lower prison population, etc. But your posting smacks of cheap anti-Americanism with assertions that Americans enjoy killing millions - outrageous - I guess you are the self-hating kind. Or maybe you are the very autistic type that you claim to loathe...
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Maybe Europe has a better idea of what foreign policy is and the foreign policy of the disUnitedSTATESofAmerica is ever so slightly dysfunctional.
Europe was just being polite to the President knowing how most USAmericans are hooked on mannerism (a shallow meaningless display of no intrinsic value what so ever)
Someone bandied that old chestnut GDP earlier in the thread.
GDP does not include home manufacturing for home markets.
So GDP league tables are not as meaningful as some people think in all comparisons. Oh dear did that just stuff the USA GDP posturing? OOps!
If China goes down so does the disUnitedSTATESofAmerica.
If the disUnitedSTATESofAmerica goes down the pan so does China.
Guess who is going to own who at the end that little spat. China will switch manufacturing to home market as soon as USA becomes economically dysfunctional.
Europe looks to being a very solid bet. Certainly one of the last to go down the pan. Therefore one of the first up and running again.
AND with 1st world health care and not the third world health care of the disUnitedSTATESofAmerica.
Make no mistake the global economic crash is ongoing.
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Forays @62 I think you used one extra zero in 3,000.
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@ 81 Docteur_Eiffel
Hi old friend. I find most of your comments quite right and acceptable. I would allow myself to complete your argument with one historic fact: for the last 50 years the crushing majority of the European Nations have proved their maturity, responsibility and efficiency by uniting under the banner of the EU. Can anybody give a similar example of political generosity among nations with so different cultures?
Sofia, Febr. 5th 2010
Generalissimo
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MaudDib @75 good idea. never heard proposed before. I think many a military site will become empty rather quickly. With governments unable to staff places, for the kick-back will be enormous at every such a suggestion :o))) Type "who do they take us for?" :o))))
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Scott0etc
I absolutely agree. EU now is similar to Articles of Confederation. Having studied US history, I learned to appreciate the simplicity and quality of the US constitution. I would almost adapt it 1:1 for the EU.
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Mum says when she goes to visit a grave of her old friend, at the cemetery there on the route there are graves with photos (Soviet way :o) of 8 girls, all siege of Leningrad time, and died in 1 day, she was told by someone there why always flowers and was said that all going to their relatives leave flowers for the girls, as they were manning a ? gun? a big kind of cannon, aimed at the sky, a Zenith battery, anti air-raid cannon. And all were 17, must be volunteered from one school class, and one could imagine how they could shoot, in Aug 1941 when the war just began right in St. Petersburg. Must be were doing this several days and were all hit by one bomb on them. Kids of course.
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MaudDib, the illustration for your "only the young ones".
SVKS11 in youtube. "White cranes fly" will be the third from the top, black and white. 4:05 minutes. 79,598 views and pity so little.
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It appears that the topic has widened from The Snub to include the Irrelevance of the EU, the lack of concrete military support for the US, healthcare systems and considerations as to whether the US and EU are, or should be allies. Oh, and there's a chap in England who wants to make it quite clear that he is NOT a European.
The Snub
A poll conducted here some years ago showed that politicians, as a group, had sunk even below divorce-lawyers and certain other parasitic middlemen in terms of respect within the population.
So, I'm not really bothered whether any individual politician has had their ego bruised. And objectively there's no reason to take any Euro-President seriously either, for the simple reason that they have no real POWER.
The EU v. The US
I consider myself a European when it comes to world politics — because I'm NOT American or Chinese. As such, I wish the EU were in a better position to improve the lot of Europeans — or at least safeguard the society we managed to attain. This is unlikely to happen while European politicians bicker and haggle amongst themselves to get the best deal (i.e. biggest slice of the cake) for their individual little countries (or their friends). The more divided and ineffectual the EU is, the less of a bother it is for the US. I'm not aware of any other reason the US (the UK government being the US's poodle, for reasons I don't understand) should have an interest in Turkey joining the EU. Let Turkey become another state like Hawaii or Alaska, if it needs to be "bound" to the West.
[re 7. Why AnonymousBE expects the EU to be "good for American interests" isn't clear to me. Or rather, he seems annoyed that the EU has "done various things very much not in America's interest". Well, the US does exactly the same things which are not in the EU's interests. It too imposes tariffs. And it is probably easier for a Californian to get a job in NY than for a German. These things are hardly surprising. And the mess the Americans have made of their dollar is hardly anyone else's fault!]
In terms of trade the EU is in a better position to look after European interests than any individual country. This almost works.
In terms of securing our interests around the globe my military force, well, as has been pointed out, we've been there, done that. It's not a nice thing to do you know. Aside from morality, it tends to get the locals upset. And they all know how to make bombs these days. [oh, and forget "spreading democracy, freedom, civilization and general goodness" — there are plenty of examples of the US, UK and France, amongst others, toppling democratically elected governments and/or propping up evil dictatorships — if it was deemed to be in their (US, UK, F) "interests".]
Don't mention The War!
To those that hadn't noticed - it took the Americans a fair while to join in either WWI or WWII, and while many, many soldiers lost their lives - it wasn't entirely altruistic. At the time the US and Germany had comparable populations. If Germany had won (a nasty scenario) and Europe had been truly "united" it wouldn't have stood for any Americans telling it what to do. The Marshall Plan, while brilliantly effective and good for Europe was also in American interests. As was (and is?) NATO with respect to the USSR (and China?)
Demanding that Europeans lose their lives in the War on Terror because of NATO is unjust because it is the US that invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, dropped bombs on Libya and missiles on Sudan and Pakistan and …
I definitely do not approve of extremist muslim terrorists (nor of extremist muslims or extremist christians or extremist jews, or any terrorists at all), but the attack on the WTC, whilst despicable, was hardly a threat to the existence of the US.
The Health System
Sorry, there's no way to get this right. The NHS is a mess, but "take an aspirin and come and see me next week if it hasn't gone" works most of the time. Other European countries may offer (much) better medical diagnosis/treatment, but, yes, it costs money.
The idea of paying taxes so that the masses can go to school, ride a bus, see a doctor and not get shot while doing any of these things is something you either subscribe to, or don't.
Summary :-)
I wish the EU was run democratically. I also wish it were run with the longterm well-being of European citizens in mind. I think it's insane to build one Airbus wing here, one there, the fuselage somewhere else and transport everything to yet another country for assembly, just so that everyone can do a bit. The bickering about dividing the Galileo (European GPS) cake is embarrassing. So, I wish there were an effective European government (which the US could talk to), but one which didn't see the need to regulate the shape of the banana (apparently improvements have been made in this area).
But most of all I wish that the EU and the US (and JP) would truly co-operate to improve things. An embargo on countries/goods which don't allow unions or which use child or slave labour would be a good start. Of course, that would hit some EU/US/JP companies hard, but, as they say, that's a price I'd be willing to pay.
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MauDib and Scott,
I don't agree with you about Jane Fonda. Just because she was for peace and Dared to speak out, you were perhaps conned into hating her forever, amen. She is a feminist and helped to humanize North Vietnamese people to ...other Americans...other than yourself.
She wasn't perfect, BUT DO YOU REALIZE 1 MILLION NORTH VIETNAMESE DIED FROM AMERICAN ACTIONS? Since those days we "don't give numbers" for war dead if they are not Americans. BTW, I agree with most things you do say.
But, you just dissed the greatest American actress of her generation (mine and probably yours too) Just so you know:)
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WebAliceinwonderland @ 82
Thank you for pointing out my error.
Americans lost an average of over 320 lives a day during WWII or 9,900 each month helping end the European conflict during WWII. We need not mention WWI loses. I think the Americans [most being European descendants] have been there when we needed them. Let us try another road besides slamming those individuals who gave so much and a country that has helped so many of our families over the years. I am sure your grand parents were grateful, mine were.
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Europe and the USA are competitors. They have few common interests left between them. One is in fighting global terrorism and the spread of nuclear weapons and other WMDs to rogue nations like Iran, North Korea and to terrorists. Europe doesn't seem to have much stomach for it and is ambivalent in this effort and the war on terror. Europe burned its last bridge to America with the cynicism of politicians like Schroeder, Chirac, deVillepin, and the vast throngs who exalted in their anti-American vitriole earlier in this century. They wanted to "confront" America and now they've gotten their wish. The release of the mass murderer Megrahi and the cynical way it was dismissed proves that deep down where it counts, Europe has not changed, is no friend of America, and that includes the UK. They only feign friendship when they want something. President Obama isn't falling for it, he's much too smart. They wanted him and now they got him too.
Europe would better understand its position and its plight if it would take a hard and objective look at how and why it recovered from WWII, how and why those conditions no longer exist, and why its efforts to sustain itself in its recent state are both unrealistic and doomed to fail.
I for one am for an immediate and total pullout of all American military forces from Europe. If Europe feels it is worth defending against someone or something that concerns it, then it should organize it, pay for it, operate it, and leave the US out of it. Ending two world wars and preventing a third is more than should have been done by America on Europe's behalf.
Europe cannot understand America. Europe thinks in terms only of the paradigms of its own history. It thinks in terms of military power, colonial empires, wealth, influence. It fails to understand that whatever the US appears to have acquired in those areas that it is so jealous of, is a consequence of how it was invented, a burst of genius at devising a most perfect union the likes of which has never been seen before or since. Europe's EU is no carbon copy of America and couldn't be even if they understood what America actually is. We are not made the same way.
I've felt for a long time that Europe's fate was terminal decline and that when it came, Europeans would never really understand quite what hit them. That is happening now and the truth of it is clearer than ever. If the ominous events of recent days continue for much longer as is likely, the entire thing will collapse with a suddenness that will be as surprising as the unexpected collapse of the USSR was. And for the same underlying cause, what held it together was incoherent, unstable, unworkable, a fantasy that had no basis in real world facts. Europe's future might look much like Africa's or South America's present. America will survive and prosper again, South and East Asia are rising. The world is adjusting to a new reality.
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Forays @90 I shouldn't have, very petty cash of me.
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My grandparents, though LOL, don't think we "thankful" :o))))
But my parents were, as remember as children American canned meat in tins.
More like rumours of it, a legend, but certainly that ate themselves, but it got a halo of a thing, how to say, all knew it exists somewhere and all were dreaming about it (among other things :o)
so American tins became a kind of a ? myth of Old Greece :o))) - kind of very inflated in proportions :o))) but better than a myth because most ate it. Unlike the Greek myths :o)))
Yes I am very old, or rather, in my family all delayed having children (a child - one max :o) until absolutely unavoidable :o))))
I think I will get myself one when I go on pension :o)))), thus improving even the best demonstrated family practices :o))))
Esp. that these days it is possible to "rent" a mother :o))), etc.
To outsource it somehow entirely :o)))
Anyway my mum finished war at the soft age of 7 or 8 I think, entering Budapesht with the Red Army. I've got a picture somewhere her toasting the victory - THE victory day - among the chaps. Someone must have shoved her a glass of wine into hands. Following the army was the safest life for many families of army men, as all the rest was razed to the ground, and anyway - it is safer with the advancing army than simply dying under bombardment. Or at least it's more jolly :o)))
She's got lots of memoirs :o))) that mostly look like big boom! smoke fire another Boom! and cities names taught to her as we liberated them. She's passed the whole Ukraine and Moldova and over the border up to Budapesht with the advancing army. No, didn't take Berlin :o)))
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@ 88 colinhow
Your analyses are good. What I deem necessary to add is the simple fact that the former foes, I mean the majority of the European nations, have managed to overcome their historic contradictions, age long prejudices, envies and hatreds in order to gather under the banner of the European Union. The Union was not possible without the political maturity and the educational level of the European nations. If the US really sticks to their solely proclaimed principles of democracy, freedom, human rights etc., they have no interest to make less effective our union (or even to destroy) it by rallying for the entry of Turkey in it!
Sofia, Febr. 6th 2010
Generalissimo Franco
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Regarding a lot of the pious Americana printed above...how during two World Wars and a Cold War, so many good American lives were lost, how they saved and protected Europe etc. etc. Can we please come off the Bandwagon here and accept that the waging of war is not about sentimental losses but about the acquisition of power, both political and territorial.
The USA only entered both Great Conflicts when it saw advantages for itself - a perfectly natural reaction some would reason. The Cold War period saw them cement those gains and spheres of influence.
However now they seem to have lost their way a bit. As Charles Dickens and Jules Verne both observed in "Martin Chuzzlewit" and "The First Men On the Moon", the USA is a country bristling with weaponry and a crazy kind of lust for guns and violence - this hasn't really changed and it is this attitude which is the most dangerous phenomonen affecting world peace and stability today.
I think China must be laughing up it's rich and brocaded sleeve watching the Americans waste so much money on fighting bizarre foreign wars, which according to Sun Tzu, are the quickest and most sure way to impoverish a state. So I say well done to Chirac and the other sensible and careful political masters who managed to see through and avoid the American polemical rhetoric.
Their latest wheeze which some bonehead military analyst in Washington has thought up has thought up is the deployment of anti- missile technology and bases in Roumania, ostensibly to protect 'Europe' from any attacks from somewhere like 'Iran', which by the way doesn't possess any such attacking capacity. All it does really is tighten up the tension against Russia and give the Usa the chance to try out it's latest weaponry.
Guys, go back to your 'Homeland' and care more for your own state and people.
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#91 MarcusAurelius11. Good to see that you don´t let mere facts stand in the way rhetoric. Perhaps facts are Un-American or perhaps they are terrorist facts, who knows.
So you are busy fighting the spread of nuclear weapons to rogue states like Iran and North Korea and terrorists. Did you know that the DPRK, Iran and Libya gained access to nuclear technology through the work of AQ Khan? Did you know that some years ago the Dutch had this guy in their sights and were just about to make their move when up popped the CIA and persuaded everyone to leave him alone.
Some years later having benefitted from covert US protection AQ Khan delivered the worlds first "Islmamic bomb" and set about meeting all manner of people from the DPRK, Libya, Iran and so forth. Today large numbers of US forces are committed to "AfPak" operations as they finally work out that Pakistan is not "secure" and that the "Islamic bomb" could indeed potentially fall into the hands of the Taliban.
But who could forget that the Taliban were once honored guests of US money men enjoying some traditional Texan hospitality paid out of expense accounts of senior UnoCal executives.
Look at Al-Queda - more bad people. But where did they come from? Oh yes they were armed funded and encouraged by the CIA in the hope that they would tie down the Soviet Union in their ill fated Afghan adventure. You really should spend some time reading the thoughts of Zbigniew Brezinski.
In the case of Al Megrahi you may wish to enquire why your tax $´s are spent on a security system that for some years insisted that the Lockerbie attack was carried out by Iranian agents, and then suddenly (and without any evidence ever entering the public domain) decided that it was a Lybian operation.
There is no known reason why the Libyans would seek to blow up commercial airliners, whereas the Iranians had ample motive. Indeed Khomeni as much as promised that he would take his revenge for the actions of the USS Vincennes (actions for which no-one was ever prosecuted). All very fundamentalist "eye for an eye" stuff.
The great thing about the US is that in so many ways it is still the land of the free. Against this background it is surprising that so many US citizens have no real idea what is going on the world and the US role in the world.
Check it out - you are lucky, you are free to do so.
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CBS/AP) The Census Bureau reports that 12.5 percent of Americans, or 37.3 million people, were living in poverty in 2007, up from 36.5 million in 2006.
Census says 45.7 million people - 15.3 percent of the population - were uninsured in 2007. That's down from 47 million in 2006.
The Bureau said the rate is not statistically different from the previous year.
The United States has 269 billionaires, the highest number in the world.
Over 23 million Americans are addicted to alcohol and other drugs.
Using 2005 data, it is estimated that there are approximately 8.9 suicides for every 100,000 Americans. Surprisingly, the same data uncovered Veterans committed suicide at a rate twice that of non-Veterans or 18.7-20.8 per 100,000.
As the United States debates health care reform, peace campaigners have pointed out that the cost of sending one US soldier to Afghanistan is equivalent to the cost of health insurance for 690 children for a year.
Global military spending rose 4% in 2008 to a record $1,464bn (£914bn) - up 45% since 1999, according to the Stockholm-based peace institute Sipri.
In total, the 100 leading defence manufacturers sold arms worth $347bn during 2007, the most recent year for which reliable data are available.
Almost all the companies were American or European. Some 61% of the total was accounted for by 44 US companies, with 32 West European companies accounting for a further 31%. Other companies were Russian, Japanese, Israeli and Indian.
The US aerospace and defence giant Boeing remains the world's largest, with arms sales of $30.5bn during 2007. The UK's BAE Systems ranked a close second, with arms sales of $29.9bn, while Lockheed Martin was third with $29.4bn in sales.
The federally budgeted military expenditure of the United States Department of Defense for fiscal year 2010, including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, is [9] :
Components
Funding
Change, 2009 to 2010
Operations and maintenance
$283.3 billion
+4.2%
Military Personnel
$154.2 billion
+5.0%
Procurement
$140.1 billion
−1.8%
Research, Development, Testing & Evaluation
$79.1 billion
+1.3%
Military Construction
$23.9 billion
+19.0%
Family Housing
$3.1 billion
−20.2%
Total Spending
$685.1 billion
+3.0%
should we all be proud of our special relationship with the us administration?. should we look to them for moral direction and hope for a better world?. Perhaps europe should concentrate on getting its own house in order and look for new allegiances, using the american model as definitelyly not the way forward.
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Bravo lefty10! Finally some sense here. 685 billion dollars on war in a single year - and there are many years to come. Anyone who thinks the US is a role model for Europe is insane.
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Yes, the best one can say is that it's ironic that these G8 countries who grab all the Headlines about securing and brokering Peace Deals around the Globe (when it suits them), are the same countries producing most of the weaponry which arms both themselves and any enemy. The lads fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are more than likely to be killed and suffer injury from weapons, easily obtained in the Black Market, which are made in their own or allied countries. Bullets polished by their own Mothers - hey but that's commerce abd shareholders have rights too!
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David
"Barbarella" with Hanoi Jane is a classic. Classic what I ain't saying. Now her dad was a good actor though. The beef with Jane is her assaults on the American boys, most of them drafted into service, most just out of high school. To her it was America bad, North Vietnam good. If the generals didn't have a clue then certainly she didn't either. But as they say "to each his own".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOnG71EgAm4
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Hey Alice
I saw the youtube clip with the cranes. Didn't understand a word but know the feeling. I've been watching a series on cable TV entitled "Wild Russia". Initially thought there would scenes of partying women and what not but noooooooooooo. It's about the wildlife of various parts of Russia. The Arctic, Siberia, the Steppes and so forth. Please, please don't let the gov destroyed these beautiful places. I would love to see them first hand some day. The scale of these areas is amazing. Makes even a Texan envious.
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It has been interesting to follow the discussion from sideline...
I agree with senoy (16) that Europe is too predictable.
I too agree with many other posters on thinking that Obama not taking part on the EU-USA summit isn't a snub on his part, but tells more about on concentrating to internal American matters.
In my opinion it is a good thing that Europe is predictable. When Europe is predictable, our partners, neighbors and other power centers of the world don't have to be restless on what we are going to do. While this may in global politics make Europe publicly sidelined in many occasions, we have to remember that the aim of Europe is not to seek public attention, but seek and secure practical real world objectives: peace and prosperity in Europe, peace and prosperity in the European sphere of influence and peace and prosperity on global stage.
That said, however it is up to other countries and power blocks on how they want to advance their relationship with Europe. For example our foreign minister Alexander Stubb just proposed on creating a common Free Trade Zone between EU and USA, he also pushed for an idea between USA and EU of having a solidarity pledge ( http://www.bilaterals.org/article.php3?id_article=16695 ). Europe does offer lots of opportunities for the rest of the world that benefit everybody, it is just a question on do they want to take these opportunities or not.
Then there are few ideas with I disagree, namely that we should have just one or two persons with whom the likes like the President of the USA should negotiate. In this instance I say no. If the rest of the world or some part of the rest of the world have difficulties on understanding on how Europe works, then it is their problem to figure it out. The EU really isn't that complex structure, yes we have three presidents, one high representative and 27 heads of states, they all have clearly defined roles and powers. When you get a deal negotiated with them, you with high certainty also get the deal passed instead of it being dragged down by the floor in congress or in senate.
Lastly but not least, there have been discussion about USA placing anti-ballistic missiles in Romania. To this I just have to say that all developed countries with working societies and tens of trillions worth of infrastructure have a common pressure to safeguard these investments against weapons of mass destruction. In long term all developed countries will in some time frame deploy missile defense that will at first eliminate a threat caused by an unstable country with few nukes, and later on eliminate a threat posed by nuclear stock of an major power. I don't see any fundamental problem on USA basing missile defense in Romania, it helps them to protect against their adversaries and that is a good thing.
However we Europeans should get our collective heads together and start working as one in organizing Europe's defense. There should be a combined European army that takes care and develops adequate protection against neighboring threats and against global threats. Now if Russia, USA, China or any other block or country feel unease about this development then they should be the ones to look into the mirror and fix their attitude problems. All actions of the European Union are intended to create security, prosperity, peace and global co-operation. Europe does offer lots of opportunities, it is up to rest of the world on do they want to take the offered hand or reject it.
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The Dixie Chicks received a lot of similar hate generated by the state propoganda and compliant media inc. when they dared to render some criticism of USA foreign policy during GW Bush's presidency years - just because the volume of the criticism was loud and virulent doesn't mean that the Dixie Chicks or Jane "Hanoi" - she should be proud of that epithet- Fonda were wrong. With the little bit of distance and hindsight now available to us, it's not difficult to see who was enlightened for the cause of humanity and who the ideological bully, who was holding the Armalite and who the flower. So going through the list, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia,Iraq and Afghanistan plus constant nefarious and murderous activities in Central and South America, there doesn't seem much to wave the flag about does there?
The best analogy for the USA seems to be Wallmart - they want everything their own way all the time and are prepared to use their muscle financial and otherways to get it.
Having said that, I know there are so many many fine, kindhearted , decent and wonderful citizens of the United States of America.Bless 'em.
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Should 'we' all be "proud of our special relationship with the US?"
Now that is a very interesting question:
Assuming 'we' refers to Europe then I would definitely say 'no' for at least the last decade: Most of Europe has been turning its back on its oldest ally, the USA, and some, notably Paris-Berlin-Brussels have through their Foreign/Military policies begun a longterm effort to breakaway from direct alliance with the USA.
If the 'we' refers to the UK then I would answer a categoric 'yes': The UK, unlike most of Europe ('old'/'west'/original 'NATO'), has rightly IMO for the most part adhered to commitments and loyalty to an ally of the last 100 years, in its Foreign-Military policies.
It is all very well to find fault with the USA: And let us be in no doubt there are many issues on which questions can be raised, but it is also intersting how the 'anti-USA' and 'pro-EU' lobbyists are increasing their critique on US internal issues (e.g. Health-Welfare Services; just when a Presidential administration is laudably trying to address some of those problem areas!).
It sort of begs the questions: Why is the EU supporter now so concerned for the 'poor'/'deprived' etc. of the States when they showed no such concern for the 'poor & deprived' of Iraq?
Afterall, if the US-UK had followed the EU/pro-EU Foreign-Military policy Saddam Hussein and his family would still be ruling Iraq, wouldn't they?
There is no getting around it: If the EU Foreign-Military policy had been followed what would the 'pro-EU' be saying with clarity even now, "Something must be done!"
Yes, more UNO sanctions: So adeptly broken at every turn by France and several other European Nations as well as Russia, China, N.Korea etc.
Clearly if you are poor and black and live in the USA then a 'pro-EU' has your dire condition at heart and will pronounce on what the USA lacks!
Clearly if you are poor and Shia/Marsh Arab/Kurd and live in Saddam's Iraq your dire condition for the 'pro-EU' should have been left to see out its course ad infinitum!
The EU/pro-EU support a policy of developing a European Defence Force: This will break-up the NATO Alliance in place since 1946 and ends an historic, wholly effective Military policy that 'West' and ultimately 'East' Europe has benefitted from. What is the purpose of the new Defence Alliance: Will it be to defend continental Europe and/or to extend EU interests with an 'armed forces' factor in its negotiations etc. further afield?
When the EDF is deployed will that be at the behest of Paris-Berlin-Brussels: How does that Command-structure make Europe safer than under the umbrella of NATO? I.e will the factor of not having US-Canadian C-in-C alongside European ones significantly improve the defensive capabilities of Europe?
Clearly for the EU Members to plan to spend an billions replacing the logistical requirements presently provided by the USA there has to be a raison d'etre and an ultimate target - - or, why would they do it - - could it be simply to make the EU look even more of an international 'political' player and rival to the USA?
Clearly for the UK and other EU Members who are not disposed to take such an expensive risk with their Defence policies there comes a point where they will have to choose: NATO or EDF? The fracturing of the NATO Alliance has been Paris-Berlin-Brussels policy since the early 1990s and the EDF will achieve that Foreign policy aim.
Europe's EDF organised from Paris-Berlin-Brussels coming to the aid of the UK in a time of peril: Isn't that a misnomer even as a concept!? In 200+ years of recent History when has the British Isles needed Europe for its 'defence' compared to the USA coming to the aid of the Islands?
It is not really relevant that the USA has done such things because of 'self-interest': When has any Nation's Foreign/Military policy stemmed only from altruism?
Consider the 'special relationship' of the British Isles and mainland Europe - - the UK/England has not been an aggressor except by invitation since the mid-18th Century - - therefore, whist some argument can be made for a continental Military Force when and how did the UK develop a need for an EDF?
One contributor commented that the end to 'colonial rivalry' had no effect on securing the peace of Europe post-WW2! A remarkably obtuse and uninformed view of how 'peace' is brought about and maintained - - the USA replaced the European colonists in various strategic areas of the World - - the returning European Armed Forces from the 1950s to 1970s provided the backbone for the European element of NATO. How then will an EDF as an extension of the EU react to an international issue: Will it allow another the Afghanistan venture as NATO has done, will it side with Lebanon or Gaza Palestinians if Israel strikes at them, will it intervene on behalf of the Pakistan Government...
Those are areas of International Foreign Affairs that the USA as a super-power is actively involved in: Is the 'special relationship' of the UK and/or Europe with the USA so fraught that the EU wishes to participate in such matters as a wholly separate entity? Thereby running the much greater risk of open conflict with USA Foreign-Military policy than is at present the case?
Europe free of commitment to the only 'democracy' that could militarily-strategically withstand the end of NATO and actually benefit financially from such a development! Something to be 'proud of'?
Sometimes the expression 'special relationship' becomes so transparently obvious in meaning that only a 'pro-EU' could fail to understand!
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You can tell Europe is getting desperate as more anti-American venom oozes from the fingers of those who hate it most and are in rage with jealousy for it onto their comuter keyboards.
from addlebrain;
"Can we please come off the Bandwagon here and accept that the waging of war is not about sentimental losses but about the acquisition of power, both political and territorial.
The USA only entered both Great Conflicts when it saw advantages for itself - a perfectly natural reaction some would reason. The Cold War period saw them cement those gains and spheres of influence."
Yes, the USA has cononized Europe, owns it, runs it, soaks it for all the money it can squeeze out of it. All European leaders are nothing more than American puppets and American corporations pay slave wages to Europeans keeping them essentailly captives just the way Europeans kept their colonial possessions.
Ascribing European motives, methods, mindsets to Americans is one sure sign Europe will never understand America. America has achieved what European megalomaniacs always dreamt of by inventing America to be nearly exactly the opposite of Europe. That must be the most infuriating part of it all.
And this from I'm-anogeddit;
"So you are busy fighting the spread of nuclear weapons to rogue states like Iran and North Korea and terrorists. Did you know that the DPRK, Iran and Libya gained access to nuclear technology through the work of AQ Khan?"
We are all aware of the Pakistani AQ Khan and that it was he who spread the knowledge of nuclear weapons to rogue states. He is a hero of Pakistan under house arrest. No the Taleban was not funded and armed by the US. The Mujahadeen that fought the USSR occupation of Afghanistan was. The US and the rest of the world made the mistake of walking away from Afghanistan after the USSR was kicked out. After a period of chaos and anarchy the Taleban emerged from some of the tattered remnants of the Mujahadeen to bring order under the cruelest most brutal of Islamic theocracies. The Taleban itself was not seen as a threat outside the region. Their real threat was that they gave sanctuary to al Qaeda. That is the reason why the US and the coalition is there, to see to it that it can't happen again and why the Taleban was defeated. Allowing al Qaeda sanctuary in Pakistan was a big mistake, the US was far too passive in pursuing them and still is.
And then there's this from lefty wingnut;
"CBS/AP) The Census Bureau reports that 12.5 percent of Americans, or 37.3 million people, were living in poverty in 2007, up from 36.5 million in 2006."
Poverty by American standards is very different from the way it is in other countries and other parts of the world. I think by US standards a family of 4 with an income of under $20,000 a year is considered poor. Many if not most "poor Americans" have most of the things people in other countries who would be considered middle class have. Also there is a gray economy that brings many poor people income that does not show up on their tax returns which keeps them in the category of poor. You do not see people dying in the streets for lack of the necessities of life including medical care. They largely have homes with indoor plumbing, electricity, phones, heat, enough food, TV sets, computers, and their children attend school but they usually don't have cars, own homes, and often don't have bank accounts.
Yes, be jealous, be very very jealous. For all its problems, America has endured and prospered after far worse. Its inner strengths will see it through again. These are strengths Europe can't understand let alone match.
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WA;
We kind of joke about Spam, these tins of corned beef hash that you can just open and eat. This is probably what you were referring to. Surprisingly, not only is it still available (I think in most supermarkets) but it has quite a following and I think there are still contests for new recipes people invent with it. We have many newer products to prevent starvation in situations like famines, disasters, wars that are scientifically more advanced but this still has found an affection in many American's memories too. Personally...I've never tried it.
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To cool_brush_work (104):
You said:
"Consider the 'special relationship' of the British Isles and mainland Europe - - the UK/England has not been an aggressor except by invitation since the mid-18th Century - - therefore, whist some argument can be made for a continental Military Force when and how did the UK develop a need for an EDF?"
You seem to be living in some kind of British hubris when the reality is somewhat different. Britain has been an aggressor, just look at the first world war, Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way around. The reason for Britain joining the war so willingly, to stick to pre-war plans while other countries such as Italy turned their coats was willingness to put down the ever growing German power.
The Great Britain of that time had disdain of Germany, disdain on that some other power could wield the same kind of power that it did. The Britons of that time saw for example the German naval expansion as aggressive, to be against Britain, but there was no god given right for the British to be the only naval power of the world. Germans did too have commercial interests to protect as did the British.
If you would take your head around of the British lore and take a look on history, you would have somewhat different view and attitude. Now I don't know exactly why you have such strong animosity against Paris and Berlin, but I would wager your view on history does form some bit of that.
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I'm actually curious as to which 'threats' Europe needs to defend itself from with extra-large military expenditures that the USA is now 'covering' for us. Can somebody please point me to the mad-men that are on the brink of invading our Southern/Eastern border?
Who says we need to invade anywhere? Aside from a few rapid-response batallions, do we really need the power projection that is being proposed here? I certainly don't want our forces to get even more involved in neo-colonial adventures.
As for the USA, they're important to watch, but jeesh guys, when I read this blog, all I can think of is that Clash song: 'I'm so bored with the USA'. Can we please stop the pissing contest and maybe focus on some other problems. The USA as such isn't even a real problem for the EU as such. International stock-markets and speculators there, now those people are a threat.
Gavin, you were doing so good, resisting the temption of making every second post about the USA. Mandell has that job, don't worry, you'll get rotated in a few years. For now, focus on something else.
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MA, @106
I was thinking, there must have been quite a lot of "Americanskaya tushenka" /American stew 9stewed beef).
350 million people in the USSR - and all remember and tried.
That's not to feed Haiti.
OK, one half beyond Urals out (and it was populated back then), say 350/2= whatever it is. Minus Southern republics who weren't invaded either and did not find accordingly much either.
Say, European Russia only.
Still, European Russia clearly looks to me like 100 million people.
Not Haiti, another size. Even if all tried once, and not all, army only (say ? what was our army? 8,500,000 loss of army, and it has always been "every fourth in the regular army - dead", means thye army only was 34 million people.
Then, army was sending the American tinned stew home of course, because what's the point to fight, who exactly for, if all family dead of hunger behind. And for quite a long time, passing their rations home. somehow. when they could. Quite an impressive number of tins.
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No wonder Americanskaya stew became a set expression a thing of own standing.
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And the delivery of it! By the Norway shores, by the way. Forays would do well :o)) if he defined for himself who he consider himself to be, in reference to those times, Norwegian or American :o))))
Because either you are dying in convoys of ships, making delivery to the USSR in the Northern sea, en route USA-Britain-Arkhangelsk, or you hunt for these British, American and Canadian Navy from Norway fjords Navy bases. I'm afraid incompatible to be both.
OK, was incompatible. Now compatible.
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MauDib;
"I would love to see them first hand some day. The scale of these areas is amazing. Makes even a Texan envious."
So does indoor plumbing. :-)
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WA;
I forgot to post the link;
http://www.spam.com/
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To Marcus 106 etc
Spam - how that brings back memories of childhood!
My mother used to make it into fritters i.e. coated with batter and my little sister and I loved it, together with American dried egg, American dried banana powder and Bully (corned) beef and food is very important to hungry kids. I was 5 years and ten days old when the Second World War broke out in September 1939 and only later learnt than much of the food we eat and the Liberty ships that brought it came from the United States.
I have been pro-America ever since.
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Re the 'snub'
My impression is that it is media and press that are being cheated out a 'jolly' in Madrid. Cancelling this summit saves a lot of money and gives the leaders a little more space to tackle problems both sides of the Atlantic.
Gavin may not know that José Zapatero has just got back from a few days in Washington. Where he attended the fund raising event for relief for Haiti. Well there's a thing - as they say.
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Marcus old boy, there's no need to get personal, we were just having a debate using the normal weapons of opinion and facts, but maybe you thought you were being funny...?
Ok. Everything USA does is great and wonderful. How's that?
Damn, I forgot that the Americans don't get irony.
The rather hysterical and messianic tone of your comments is just what Europeans fear as it comes smack bang up against other fundamentalist maniacs and threatens a spiral of descent into America's favourite pastime -WAR! To paraphrase Ronald Regan, the eight most dangerous words in the English language are "I'm from America and I'm here to help".
Reading the facts and figures from Lefty 10, it was interesting to note that the two main players in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are also the two biggest producers of arms - definitely a coincidence maybe.
I agree with Leo _Naptha, where are these threatening forces that we should be so afraid of ?
To Jukka Rohila, I think the WW1 was a big Franco/German rivalry revenge thing. After the Prussians hammered France in 1870 and took Alsace Lorraine, a generation or so later the French wanted revenge and Alsace Lorraine back. They had roped Britain into an Entente Cordiale alliance during the early 1900's - a great feat of French diplomacy, considering their aim was to provoke Germany- and so it happened. Ditto the revenge thing for Hitler's Germany with bells on. That the EU was developed by the French and Germans with the support of other countries who had suffered gravely during WW2, to avoid such tit for tat destruction is a great thing. So please don't pity us too much Marcus Aurelius II, we have a beautiful continent that we are very proud of. Rather than accusing others of oozing venom in rage and jealousy...take your foot off the gas and enjoy your spam with dignitas.
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105. At 3:03pm on 06 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
After a period of chaos and anarchy the Taleban emerged from some of the tattered remnants of the Mujahadeen...
----------------------------------
I do not know if you have read this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2010/01/afghanistan_didnt_just_defeat.html
I had not seen it until a previous poster mentioned its author. I am sure it is only one view of the connections between USSR, Pakistan and the appearance of the Taliban. I found it very interesting.
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105. MarcusAureliusII
Its not about slagging off america for the sake of it. Im afraid the facts speak for themselves. If you decide that watching fox news like so many americans gives you all the information you need to have informed opinions, then I feel sorry for you. However slow moving an indecisive the UN may be, serious damage was done by the british an americans eventually steamrollering this organisation. From my perspective, as well as the taliban, Al-Qaeda etc there is also another extreme element in this world and that is american foreign policy and certain republicans. Sure they don't go around with bombs strapped to their vests but if you want me to post figures, deaths as a result of islamic terrorists v deaths as a result of us foreign policy I will do. I don't think you would like the stats. Talking of stats.
Some more for you...
the list goes back alot further in time but not enough room to blog so started at 1914. also doesnt include unknown/classified operations or ww1 and 2.
US Military and Clandestine Operations in Foreign Countries
1914-1934
Haiti
1916-1924
Dominican Republic
1917-1933
Cuba
1918-1920
Panama
1918-1922
Russia
1919
Yugoslavia
1919
Honduras
1920
Guatemala
1922
Turkey
1922-1927
China
1924-1925
Honduras
1925
Panama
1927-1934
China
1932
El Salvador
1933
Cuba
1934
China
1946
Iran
1946-1949
China
1947-1949
Greece
1948
Italy
1948-1954
Philippines
1950-1953
Korea
1953
Iran
1954
Vietnam
1954
Guatemala
1958
Lebanon
1958
Panama
1959
Haiti
1960
Congo
1960-1964
Vietnam
1961
Cuba
1962
Cuba
1962
Laos
1963
Ecuador
1964
Panama
1964
Brazil
1965-1975
Vietnam
1965
Indonesia
1965
Congo
1965
Dominican Republic
1965-1973
Laos
1966
Ghana
1966-1967
Guatemala
1969-1975
Cambodia
1970
Oman
1971-1973
Laos
1973
Chile
1975
Cambodia
1976-1992
Angola
1980
Iran
1981
Libya
1981-1992
El Salvador
1981-1990
Nicaragua
1982-1984
Lebanon
1983
Grenada
1983-1989
Honduras
1984
Iran
1986
Libya
1986
Bolivia
1987-1988
Iran
1989
Libya
1989
Philippines
1989-1990
Panama
1990
Liberia
1990-1991
Iraq
1991-2003
Iraq
1991
Haiti
1992-1994
Somalia
1992-1994
Yugoslavia
1993-1995
Bosnia
1994-1996
Haiti
1995
Croatia
1996-1997
Zaire (Congo)
1997
Liberia
1998
Sudan
1998
Afghanistan
1998
Iraq
1999
Yugoslavia
2001
Macedonia
2001-present
Afghanistan
2003-present
Iraq
2004
Haiti
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WA;
The history of supplying food to the US military starts with some terrible stories of contractors supplying tainted meat to the Union Army during the Civil War (1861-1865.) You have to wonder how many Union soldiers fell not to the Confederacy but to their food.
Upton Sinclair's novel "The Jungle" was a story about the meatpacking industry I think in Chicago at around the turn of the century and about the plight of newly arrived immigrant labor mostly from eastern and central Europe at that time. It was part of the movement to improve consumer protection, labor rights, and other social advances in capitalist America. By WWI things were much better and far better still by WWII.
You can see that military "chow" in the American military is probably as good as anyone's (except maybe the French who undoubtedly have wine at every meal which may explain why their soldiers can't shoot straight if the battle is after lunch :-) When they're out in the field and can't get back to their company "mess" they have those MREs (meals ready to eat.) A lot of work was done to feed astronauts where the problem of weightlessness made it even harder. The US had a lot of food to sustain people who were in jeopardy of starvation but often these would require a supply of safe potable water to prepare. That wasn't always possible. These powdered forms of food could last in storage a very long time without spoiling. Foods like Spam could violate some cultures' dietary laws also because they contain beef. Several years ago, I think BBC reported on a kind of candy bar USDA developed called "plumpy nut." It think it is based on soy or peanut butter but has many additives. It is said that two of these $5 candy bars a day has enough nutrition to keep an adult human being from starving indefinitely and of course all you do is open the wrapper and eat them.
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Marcus #112
On my last visit to Texas I was amazed at the complexity and refinement of their two holers. Made me envious. But then again I don't get out as much as you.
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addlebrained;
Ooooh that hatred and jealousy keeps oozing out of those fingers on to that keyboard.
"So please don't pity us too much Marcus Aurelius II, we have a beautiful continent that we are very proud of."
That is your opinion. Once you get past the vistas of what appear to be picturesque villages all over the sides of hills and you take a hard look at the actual buildings that are hundreds of years old people live in, you can see most of them are really hovels, little more than caves. Just bringing electicity and indoor plumbing through those three foot thick stone walls must have been a nightmare. The castles and museums are mostly mausoleums, monuments to the egos of past tyrants paid for by the forced labor of their impovrished subjects and gilded with booty stolen from empires whose captive nations dot the entire globe. Between those spaces are toxic industrial waste dumps, especially in Eastern Europe. Have they cleaned up the rivers in Europe yet? One thing I noticed when I live there that the tourist guide books never mentioned was how they all stank from raw sewage dumped in them. Another was that you could hardly sit outdoors in a Cafe in France. Between the stench of gasoline from cars and trucks, the noise of traffic it was unbearable. Going inside was hardly much better with the cigarette smoke from all those Gallois cigarettes wafting all over the place.
Left wingnut;
Now show me one of my postings that linked to a story on Fox news. I'll bet I could find hundreds of my postings that link to stories on BBC. So what makes you think I get most of my information from Fox. Recently World Focus has proven to be an excellent source of international news. It's an American effort that partners with ITN, Deutche Wella, and al Jazerra among others. PBS Nightly News is also excellent although I prefer the format they had up to recently to the new one they've adopted. I get very little news from Fox, CNN, or MSNBC.
You will notice that all of the American military interventions you mentioned were brief lasting usually only a few years and rarely more than a decade or two. Unlike European militarily conquered colonial empires, the US goes in to establish or restore order and then leaves once local citizens can resume normal civilian government securely. That is what will happen in Haiti. That is what we expect in Iraq and Afghanistan. Ten years for the US in Afghanistan and the US can hardly wait to walk away leaving it relatively safe and stable. 100 years for Britain and they were thrown out. See the difference?
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lefty10 @ 118 :o)))))))
I am sure something is missing in the list.
Russians put it simpler: "Americans have military bases in 150 countries of the world".
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Anyway, we are working on re-educating them, in this respect.
Slowly. :o))))))
If you dial in youtube mul118 the third one, from the top, black and white - will be brave students of the Berkley university performing Russian song of 1941. In their hostel I think.
That mul 118 already placed many, but the performance quality :o)))) is still lacking, say, in things.
And that one is actually also a quite energetic song, but Americans, oh and a Chinese is there - good! are quite sad (over definitly a bottle of vodka on the table) - while singing. They put their translation text on top as well, on the right side, but I don't know how to explain to open "details" ?
In field the tanks were rambling rambling
And one could see as if day-time (the soldiers went to final fight)
(there exists a 100 version of the song)
And a you-a - young co-omm-ander
Was carried with his head hit through.
Into our tank there hit ? something
our ? cannon-loads set - it got blown up
So four dead bodies, by the tank,
Have greatly decorated the morning landscape!
:o)))) (seriously. that's what the song says)
etc. etc. mother will cry... dad will brush off tear by hand
and the young girl will never know where is her tanker
The telegrams will fly to relatives.. etc. All clear. :o(
And there will be covering with dust a yellow photo, on the shelf
over the fire-place -
In military uniform. With excellent epaulettes.
And he is not a bride-groom for her no more!
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121. floridabigbottoms,baywatch,georgebush,americanfairyfootballwithshoulderpads,cowboys and lots of guns..god bless america..
(shouldnt have risen to the second wingnut comment by you)
anyway....
.......
i genuinly burst out laughing... especially at this bit...
"US goes in to establish or restore order and then leaves once local citizens can resume normal civilian government securely"."That is what we expect in Iraq and Afghanistan".
i now cant take anything you say seriously and wish you could have replied to the comments made in some sort of serious way! although perhaps your iq is slightly higher than old g, bushes....(slightly)
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Dear Boy, One is neither jealous of you nor do I particularly hate . However you seem to exhibit a lot of the American traits that people generally find so distasteful...but of course you don't give a damn, so there you are.
Regarding the history of the British in the sub continent and Afghanistan, many today recognize the sterling work that was done in establishing a Civil Service, a Road and Rail network, a Judiciary, Schools and Cultural links which have lasted very well up to the present day, and on good terms too -it's called the Commonwealth - as opposed to the one dimensional wealth of a dollar bill which seems to be the rather banal measure of success preferred elsewhere.
Well good luck with the rest of the century, I have a feeling the USA is barely functional now.
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As regards the picture at the top. Can somebody tell me who Brown is fixing to kiss. It must be the French guy.
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O. Someone EllyVerde has placed the same song "the tank is emraced by fire, damn it chaps, - one so very much wants to live!" with the extracts from the American ? English? film "My Boy Jack". About the 1st WW I think. Or may be second. Hard for me to tell. We still have telegrams :o))))
Perfectly illustrating it, one to one, as if the director (Heig) made the film about this song.
So we are working on it :o)))))
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KG;
Interesting documentary.
"Benazir Bhutto then decided to use her new allies to bring order to Afghanistan. Many of the Deobandi students were Pashtuns and Bhutto was convinced she could create a new force that would bring order to the country. It would also restore Pashtun power.
At the end of 1994 she and her interior minister, General Babar, unleashed the Taliban, backed by vast amounts of Pakistani arms and money. Within months the "students" had taken Kandahar and were advancing on Herat."
Bhutto didn't learn from her father's mistake. He appointed Zia who killed him. She helped bring the Taleban to power who killed her. Obviously there is no honor among thieves. She also didn't learn from the Kennedy assassination as she repeated his mistake by standing up in a vehicle which gave her assassin a clear shot at her. That is how she was assassinated. As I understand it, ultimately she was finally educated in the US and had given up all of her earlier misguided and naive notions of the world. She was actually America's hope for transition back to civilian government in Pakistan. It should be recalled that it was an attempt to assassinate Musharrif by denying his plane which was having engine problems clearance to land that ultimately brought him to power. He supported the Taleban initially until 9-11 when the US told him he would have to choose which side he was on and if it was the Taliban's Pakistan would be attacked by the US as well. He and his military which along with the ISI was infiltrated by al Qaeda and the Taleban cooperated just enough to avoid being seen by the US as allied with the enemy. The civilian government he replaced in Pakistan was as usual thoroughly corrupt and ineffective. The current government understands all too well that the Pakistani Taleban is a direct threat to it but has not actively pursued the Afghani Taliban. It seems at the moment to allow US drones and small numbers of special forces to operate within its borders though.
The US supplied the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan with Stinger shoulder fired missiles to shoot down Soviet helicopotors and even jets. It should be recalled that the USSR used the same yellow poison gas on Afghanis that Saddam Hussein used on the Kurds. In fact he probably got it from the USSR. The Stingers given to the Mujahadeen as I understand it are designed to degrade over years so that they cannot be stored indefinitely to be used at any arbitrary later date for some other purpose. They have a built in shelf life. That and small arms and money is what the Mujahadeen got. The USSR was told when it invaded Afghanistan that if it tried to invade Pakistan too, it would mean war directly with the United States. Clearly they took the warning seriously. The lie that the US government somehow created and supported the Taleban or al Qaeda is just one of the many in a litany of them that form a tapestry of lies those who hate America try to spread. Unfortunately, many around the world and even in the US itself belive them.
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lefty10
Re #118
Now why not go back and list those USA campaigns that were:
a)At the behest of the Government of a Nation
b)In compliance with the UNO Security Council request
C)Alongside fellow NATO Armed Forces
And while we are on the subject of casualties I note you left out World War One (1914-18, Europe; 1917-18 USA) & Two, 1939 -45 for Europe & 1941-45 for the USA (though Chinese of Kuomintang and Communist persuasion would argue it began in 1936 in Manchuria/Manchuko with Japan's invasion).
That is incredibly odd, to overlook the 2 largest recorded conflicts in the History of mankind!
Of course, you would not be leaving out those enormous World-determining events from your list because it so inconveniently does not fit with and infact directly contradicts your thesis on 'bad' America and the evident dislike of the USA, would you?
When you have finished making your lists of all things 'bad' about the USA take a look at the USSR, China, the UK, France and indeed much of Europe in the colonial era of the 20th Century.
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Addlebrained;
"...you seem to exhibit a lot of the American traits that people generally find so distasteful...but of course you don't give a damn, so there you are."
Finally you got something right. I don't.
"Regarding the history of the British in the sub continent and Afghanistan, many today recognize the sterling work that was done in establishing a Civil Service, a Road and Rail network, a Judiciary, Schools and Cultural links which have lasted very well up to the present day, and on good terms too -it's called the Commonwealth - as opposed to the one dimensional wealth of a dollar bill which seems to be the rather banal measure of success preferred elsewhere."
You really must be joking. Wherever the British empire went with the possible exception of Bermuda, what it left in its wake was a shambles. I could hardly believe what I saw in the capital of Granada the first time I visited it in 1984. Even compared to the usual shantytowns all over the Carribean I'd seen in former British colonies like Barbados, Saint Lucia, and Antigua at the time, what the British had left as Granada's capital looked like little more than a tent city. It was obvious that the British had raped it along with its other imperial possessions.
"Well good luck with the rest of the century, I have a feeling the USA is barely functional now."
Want to try a re-run of the American Revolution and find out the hard way? BTW, if you do, you can't have your nuclear weapons we keep safely stored for you in the US :-)
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J_R
Re #107
Sorry Jukka, but yet again your History student credentials are at a low ebb.
Great Britain most certainly did declare war on Germany in both WW1 and WW2: On each occasion as a result of Germany's aggression and invasion of Nations with whom G.B. had some form of Defence pacts; Belgium in 1914 and Poland in 1939.
It may be from the sad 'military' history-perspective of Finland that such action constitutes 'aggressor', but then at least the UK had a choice to make as to whether to stand idly by as European neighbours were attacked or eventually make a stand on their behalf, and naturally in the interests of the British Isles.
Do remind us all: When Finland became independent of Soviet Russia during the Civil War exactly how many thousands of 'Red' Finns were slaughtered by 'White' Finns?
I only ask as a method of reminding you that every Nation has to face difficult episodes and for right/wrong reasons some very good/bad things are undertaken. Foreign-Military policy being amonst the most difficult areas: I mean, if you visit the Mikkeli War Museum 8central Finnish Command in WW2) it is evident very quickly how hand-in-glove the Finnish High Command was with the Nazi Germany - - should Britain have taken the same line?
Let us be quite clear the History I know is gleaned mainly from books, but also at my parents' teaching and from experience.
It would seem, as has appeared in past contributions by you, that whilst your Finnish forefathers fought and fought to establish the State of Finland your understanding of all that is involved in such things is, to be generous, narrow and naive.
Next December 6th I suggest you take an extra long pause at the Flag-post and recall that but for those Finns enormous sacrifice and Stalin's 'hubris' (as Nationality Commissar it was he originally granted Soviet recognition to an independent Finland) your great Nation would have joined the other Baltic States in that exceedingly long and painful communist-era!
Frankly, it beggars belief that a person whose Nation was a subjugate extension of Russia in WW1 and an ally of Fascist Germany in WW2 would try to lecture a Briton on 'God given rights' or the right course of Foreign-Military policy action!
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WA;
"lefty10 @ 118 :o)))))))
I am sure something is missing in the list.
Russians put it simpler: "Americans have military bases in 150 countries of the world"."
That must leave Russian generals very jealous :-) NeoSoviet (I just coined this word) politicians like Vlad Putin could campaign for office on the promise of closing the military base gap with the US :-)
BTW WA, as there are only a little over 200 countries in the world, why do you suppose a full quarter of them were omitted? Time to borrow more money from China to build more of them so we can have one of them everywhere, just like MacDonalds. Wouldn't you like one right near you in Saint Petersburg? They can feed you much better than Spam these days. Will that be with or without fries?
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OMG of course it is soooooo obvious why President Obama didn't go to visit the EU. How long should it take for someone to put two and two together and get four? President Obama had to clear his desk so that he could make time in his schedule tonight to sit at home in the White House with his friends and watch the Superbowl along with most other American males and many American females. The EU should have checked its calendar before it scheduled its meeting to be sure it wouldn't conflict with Superbowl Sunday. Next time Europe, be more aware of American culture and when our religious rites are scheduled so that this kind of conflict doesn't happen again :-)
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#128 MarcusAurelius11 Just because you something is a lie doesn´t mean that it is. Why should sseeking an understanding of what is true have anything to do with hating Americans?
Al Qaeda emerged from the Afghan Mujahadeen. The US supported the Mujahadeen with a lot more than stinger missiles.
The US clearly supported the Taleban - that is why they were invited to Sugerland Teexas as guests of UnoCal.
The poision gas deployed by Saddam against Kurds was supplied by a German company. Gas was previously used against the Iranians when technical targetting assistance was provided by US military advisers. At the time the US was sangine regarding the use of poison gas with the military informing the New York Times that the deployment of poison gas gave rise to "no strategic concerns."
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To cool_brush_work (131):
You are not a Finnish, you are not even a citizen of the Finnish state, you don't know nor understand this nation and the country, so stop pretending to know it. You are merely just a guest here.
What goes to the history...
A) Britain had the option on not declaring the war to Germany. Italy as an member of the Triple Alliance made this decision, it didn't declare war, it stayed neutral and only declared war against Germany and Austria-Hungary after when it was promised areas in the Treaty of London.
B) Triple Alliance was formed in 1882, this didn't alarm any other nations. Triple Entente was formed in 1907 to counter Germany and the Triple Alliance.
The facts are that A Britain didn't have to join the war, but it did anyway, and B Britain, France and Russia acted aggressively against Germany by forming the Triple Entente.
The reasons for why Britain wanted to go into a war against Germany were because of A) to restrict growth of the German naval power, and B) British imperial ambitions in Africa, especially tension caused by the German posession of German East Africa that prevented the planned Cape-to-Cairo railroad.
There were many reasons why Britain wanted to have an war with Germany and why it did declare war on it. Now you might ask on why shouldn't Britain have declared war against Germany, might a simple answer be that it is wrong to wage war against other countries. Another reason could have been that the Germany of the time was very civilized and developed state with a budding democracy, do remember that France and Britain of that time weren't great democracries, they were dubious at best when compared to United States.
Britain was aggressor in the first world war, that is clear. It is false to say that Britain has been this innocent by stander that has been continually been attacked from the mainland. That is false.
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MAII
Re #133
As funny as it seems that is probably about the most genuine reason for Obama snubbing the EU.
If you are President and at the end of your first year of Office & been around 100+ plus Capital Cities as well as your own Nation, surely the ONE thing you are for sure, NOT going to miss is the SuperBowl!
Dining with Sarkozy, Merkel, Brown, Zappatoro etc., or feet up, cold beer and crisps (chips) whilst for once legimitimately watching those 'cheeky' Cheerleaders do what they do-do so very well: No contest.
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129. 130.
i can assure you that current us military spending is unsustainable. there will come a time, possibly quite soon, when the US will not be able to dictate world affairs. then other countries will be calling the shots. perhaps then humility will be forced to flourish more widely in the US. perhaps then you will redirect some of your abhorrently high military budget towards the benefit of your own citizens. i do have hope though, and genuinley believe other countries are more concerned with being left alone rather than dictating their will on others. as regard for the british empire.. are you using this as to excuse US foreign policy over recent years!!! i did mention in the blog ww1 and 2. you say evident dislike of the US. have you no idea of world opinion on your recent foreign policy. do you understand that other people have different beliefs. not all extreme. Sure the Palestinian conflict is the core to many issues and uk born, but how many politicians in the US are islamic compaired to jewish?, this said in regard to conflict resolution and americas apparent leading role. Many countries want a different type off society that the US offers. is this such a threat to you. is it your way or the high way. much you have to learn! If nothing more, try to realise that much of the worlds problems today are a result of american overeation, self interest and complete misunderstanding. Don't be afraid or scared of different cultures. Communism hasn't worked but your and our form of capitalism is equally poor. The world is changing and it will take the US with it kicking and screaming if necessary. In this country we have two main political parties who are awash with corruption and miss-trust. Despite the uk citizens apathy and low voting stats, eventually things will change. Nothings perfect, but it can and will be a lot better , not however following Current US administrative foreign or struggling domestic policies (not in the long term anyway). If you consider your country is and example of the future or your foreign policy working, I will happily post facts all day long to the contrary, moreover, you only have to watch domestic and world news on tv to realise somethings seriously wrong and your country would be the last place I would come looking for answers!!
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Homer Simpson III is a crass oaf who does his country no service.
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MauDib,
Last thing I'll say bout this. Everyone during that time who was antiwar was like that about US soldiers in Vietnam. We all learned the difference between duty and political belief. Europeans, Americans, all antiwar protesters behaved that way. Jane was the symbol of that. So, she was the most visible, BUT,
1 million N. Vietnamese died in a losing effort...NOT because Jane caused us to lose, It was the geography ..the closeness to China And the jungle terrain. NOT JANE.
Oh well, life is about change, perspective and experience, but Also Education.:)
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Jukka, nobody in his right mind believes Romania is in bad need of being protected from Iran. Never heard of Iran hunting Romanians. They don't even know they exist.
Neither that the USA protects itself from Iran by positioning a shield in Romania. Where is Romania, where is Iran where are the US shores.
Has nothing to do with protecting the USA mainland.
The only official explanation that can hold water a couple of drops is that by positioning a shield anywhere in Europe, the USA protects from Iran the EU in general. Good intention to be applauded and all. I mean, why not. Iranian president does look out of his mind, say, on every third day.
But the rule is you intercept as close to the take off place as possible. The close places are Georgia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbajan is simply right there. Still, the USA turned down Russian offer to intercept whatever takes off from Iran by positioning the shield in Azerbajan. We've asked Azerbajan, they are all for. The USA does not quarrel with Azerbajan, seems OK for both. Seems OK for Russia, as we can see some sense in such an American shield in Azerbajan, to snap up whatever flies from Iranian side.
Given the above, the only thing the USA do by positioning shield in Romania is to protect the EU from Russia. This makes sense, what doesn't - is to have double talk about it.
If EU wants to be protected from Russia, feels they have to - why not?
If the USA see themselves as an aid in this EU desire - why not?
Except when the both admit it, instead of constant lying, ? I don't know what will happen. Simply Russia will act accordingly, seeing that we are seen as a nuclear threat to Europe, and the USA is a willing helper to Europe in that respect.
I don't think anything much will happen. I haven't heard much hysteria in the local Russian media ab the US interceptors in Romania.
All is clear, so to say, and re-confirmed, what to scream about.
The EU is either unable to hold its smaller constituencies, violating their peace with Russia, or is un-willing to do it. Hoping will somehow anyhow Russians will understand.
Russians understand. But as there seems to be not many people around LOL to take care of our interests, we will ourselves, in the ways and places we find proper.
So all is how to say, not very friendly of course, but pretty down to earth straightforward.
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I think Romania is after a quick buck only. That they don't get from the EU so don't feel they have to mind the EU interests either.
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cbw
The President also had to address the DNC (Democratic National Committee) meeting today. There's video of his motorcade driving through the snow in the blizzard that just blanketed the Middle Atlantic region including Washington DC with about 2 feet of snow last night. That was also more important. Now how would it look if 3 years from now when Obama comes up for re-election his opponent whomever he or she is could say that President Obama missed the 2010 superbowl and opted instead to go listen to a bunch of useless old European farts deliver more of their tired worn out speeches? That would be "sudden death" with no "overtime." :-)
I'll guarantee you that there will far more to choose from than chips not only in Obama's home but in all other American's homes when they sit down to watch the game. Personally my favorite is Tex-Mex but Pizza is great and of course there are usually hot dogs. I already ate the Italian subs soooo... and always lots of cold beer.
Here's a real stroy about real Amerian heroes in WWII even few Americans and very few foreigners know about.
http://www.booktv.org/Watch/11075/The+Brenner+Assignment+The+Untold+Story+of+the+Most+Daring+Spy+Mission+of+World+War+II.aspx
If the above link gets broken, use this one below and click on the video "watch" link from there. You'll hear about some of the most amazing war stories you ever heard. They are well researched and evidently all true.
http://www.booktv.org/search.aspx?For=the%20brenner%20assignment
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Also, for all the anti American voices here, remember the times before the US dominance.
Totalitarian regimes, genocides on the order never seen since the 40's.
Europe was the perpetuator of crimes against humanity and Ideology that was from hell--
then called Europe. And what has it achieved? A peace forced upon it by others. And now, this so very best of Europe uses its fatigue of the US to invent second rate phhilosophy and political thought as to make Europe impotent.
I dont mean this for all, but for a so loud FEW that hate.
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MaudDib, we don't have much methods to control that tundra, steppe, or some plains you liked in the movie stay as they are :o)))
We don't travel the country anymore, so no idea what where.
It's in USSR the travel was cheap, one thing is 10 roubles to fly to Volga region (mid-European Russia)
from Leningrad another thing a thousand dollars to visit the same aunt. Aunts became very expensive.
So we can only vaguely hope those distant things survive somehow.
Hope that locals there also mind own business and complain if something goes wrong, to their own Federation constituency powers.
I haven't travelled country since USSR, only Moscow-St.Petersburg, so no idea what is elsewhere now. In general, I don't think much happens, as we are heavily into oila nd gas as you noticed , instead of old industries, and where there are no industries anymore, one would think there is nothing to spoil nature with. Much.
Still, oil and gas make up only 35% of Russia's yearly revenue, so somebody somehow is doing something, somewhere. ? No idea what. A bit of this a bit of that. How do those 65% impact nature is un-clear to me.
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Poor Russia, WA,
So close to the EU and so far from God.
(from old Mexico saying.."so close to the USA and so far from God...we took half of Mexico from them ..Texas, California, etc.) a semi joke. ....sigh
:)
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David;
You might consider beyond the hundreds of thousands of people the North Vietnamese and their Viet Cong allies murdered both during and after the war, that events proved Jane Fonda dead wrong. The Vietnamese themselves recognized that fact in the 1980s when they were among the poorest countries in the world. While still a despotic regime they have given up on communism and converted to what is in effect a capitalist economy just the way China did no matter what they try to call it. Had their views of 1964 been the same as their views are today, the American war in Vietnam never would have happened. As for the French war, they were due to be thrown out wherever they were.
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Mavrelius, it's 49 minutes! :o)))) In speaking. :o))))) I listened to bits and pieces but can you please quickly describe who where and what. ?
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WA;
"Still, oil and gas make up only 35% of Russia's yearly revenue, so somebody somehow is doing something, somewhere. ? No idea what."
Russians sell tourist tickets to the International Space Station. They'll also let you fly a Mig and even sell you one (disarmed of course unless you are a government.) Who would buy those old Migs? Rich Westerners who have grown tired of expensive sports cars and want a real thrill ride. The US Air Force also uses them to fight mock air battles for training purposes. The instructors fly the Migs using known Russian/Soviet fighting tactics to see how well their students can handle the challenge of air to air combat in American planes. Electroncally simulated weapons signal each plane when it would have been blown out of the sky had it been real combat.
If you can't afford a Mig, you can always buy a Soviet Army wristwatch. Big, clunky, and stupid looking (I don't even know if it keeps good time), it could be a kind of cult thing among some Americans. I'm surprized we don't also collect Zils, Volgas, and Tribants for the fun of it too. I'll bet their gas pedals don't stick.
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Right now the Chinese are bankrolling/bankrupting the USA much like we did Britain and maybe France 50 years ago..in 10 years our democracy will hopefully realize this and become isolationist/powerless ...against China's dirty wars and actions.
Oh how proud will (clueless) Lefty will feel then. Cheers!
Europe will become ...what?..
HOPEFULLY UNITED AND PROSPEROUS...Good luck!
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WA, go to the last part, I'd say about the last 10 or 15 minutes and it will explain the remarkable feats a handful of men fighting against hopeless odds accomplished in defeating many Nazi German soldiers including among their officers some of the most heinous criminals in Northern Italy in WWII. They destroyed their escape route through the Brenner pass, a single soldier took the surrender of 5000 Germans, and the small group blew up 26 trains. During their escapades they evaded capture by hundreds and at times possibly a thousand German soldiers who had them surrounded and were hunting them down. They managed one impossible escape after another. The stories seem at times impossible to believe but they are so well documented they must be true. The author Patrick MacDonnell sifted through thousands of documents and interviewed many Italian resistance fighters in their old age including the one eye'd truck driver who got them behind German lines.
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And Jukka I read your exchange with cool brush ab 1stWW, you always protect Germany. :o)))
what's new. I think it's alright, as long as you protect Germany of the past and don't automatically stamp ".. and all my favourite Germany plans to do in future" :o))))
When was the 60th anniversary of the war? 1945+60, in 2005. I haven't yet been in these blogs and had no idea about "Paris-Berlin axis" talk, or any contra-currents within the European Union, Russians know nil ab it. So in 2005 I read veterans of the war short memoirs, collected from all main countries-participants, a Dutch project, about 60 short veteran stories and their photos. One (ours) stroke me as very silly, it's a Russian who told a story, forgot which and ended it up with "I know Germans. I got to know them in 4 years. They will do a ? revanche? a come back? May be not by military means but by economic means, or buying lands, i don't know how, I don't write off military ways either, but one thing i am certain they'll be back. "
I thought type "a silly old man, Germany is the quietest place for miles around" :o))))
Next time I remembered only when hear about paris-Berlin tha? "axis ? here. Thought may be he wasn't so silly.
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David, think carefully for a minute. Of the 14 trillion dollars the US debt consists of, how much of it is owned by the Chinese government? I've heard numbers as high as 2 trillion but the one I heard from recent Congressional testimony it's more like 800 billion. Now how much of America's annual income is generated by profits repatriated from investments in China? Small wonder a lot of American economists are not that concerned. China's GDP is much larger than its GNI which is the real measure of how much money it keeps. Of every dollar of GDP, that is wealth produced in China, taken as a whole, 85 cents leaves the country. It is basically a place of cheap labor and non existant regulations for foreign owned assets.
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Mavrelius, ah, so it was Italy. I won't write off anything as "un-believable" about the 2nd WW, and am glad you finally recognised your heros, or are about to. ? As I guess the news hasn't spread yet much; a new book?
I know Britain lacks in documentaries ab 2ndWW because they had little film, as simple as that, cut off as an island in supplies, but one would think you had no shortages of plastic and camera-s, pity you didn't shoot more film right back then. Then you'd know possibly earlier about those men than now.
(as far as I remember, in third countries' trials, absolutely all USSR-made planes eh, how to say, zipped off in the skies absolutely all US makes :o)))) And still do, well, except when your 5th generation one is counter-compared. But it's not that it was for sale, so noone could compare either :o))))) We presume it is better :o))))))
So what there, about MIGs, I didn't hear well? :o)))))
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On the "Zils, Volga-sand Trabant".
"A man was arrested by the police for grabatising his neighbour's old Moskvitch. The police found, in dismay, that he brought his neighbours car into his garage, dismantled it to pieces, and is quietly putting it back together again, fixing it.
- Why did you steal your neighbour's car? You do have an own Zhiguli, don't you?
- I felt I need some variety in my sex life.
:o)))))
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WA;
"I haven't yet been in these blogs and had no idea about "Paris-Berlin axis" talk,.."
WA, have you been living in a cave? After President Bush's "axis of evil" reference to North Korea, Iran, and Iraq in his 2002? State of the Union address, the Berlin-Paris connection trying to block the invasion of Iraq at the UN Security Council around early 2003 was described by Americans and reported all over the press as "the axis of weasel." I think the term still fits perfectly and I think that is how most Americans think of them too.
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" 55. At 9:52pm on 05 Feb 2010, Scott0962 wrote:
I can tell you one part of military spending that Americans are getting increasingly fed up with: the money we spend on forces to defend Europe so our European allies can divert money from defense to social programs. It's high time Europe carried it's own water when it comes to defense."
I couldn't agree more. In the 1980's it took 100000 West Germans, marching on the streets to persuade Reagan to place updated missiles in their country to defend them against the East Germans. But in 2003 it was not until millions of upset Europeans had demanded it, that President George W Bush reluctantly agreed to defend them against Saddam Hussein's Weapons Of Mass Destruction, which were just 45 minutes away.
Next time, when the Ugandans are threatening Europe with space based death rays or the Peruvians with their doomsday bomb, maybe you won't be defending Europe?
Horrible thought!
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Doublethink in action:
"The US supplied the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan with Stinger shoulder fired missiles to shoot down Soviet helicopotors and even jets. ........... The lie that the US government somehow created and supported the Taleban or al Qaeda is just one of the many in a litany of them that form a tapestry of lies those who hate America try to spread."
Note that Marcus not only fails to recognize that the Mujahadeen and the Taleban are the same folks, he also takes the time to moralize and accuse others of weaving a "tapestry of lies".
I find the support for the military industrial complex is most fascinating. People like Marcus support it without pay, and without any reward except patriotic pride.
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dt, you have the DTs or something?
"I find the support for the military industrial complex is most fascinating. People like Marcus support it without pay"
All of the money I've earned in my lifetime has come from American industry one way or another. Some of it has been either directly or indirectly associated with military projects in one way or another (mostly indirectly.) What on earth are you talking about?
dt, I don't find your support of a nation making its money from protecting the booty of criminals of all types surprising. From someone living in Switzerland and benefitting from it...I expect it.
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no, MA, must admit never heard of "Paris-Berlin axis" , of evil, or simply an axis, before seeing this blog.
Of evil, we only know you described us so, but when who and why nobody remembers either. Someone American, some time.
I suppose we do live in a cave, in terms we are enough troubles :o))) for ourselves, to feed own news, not very much interested who says what about whom. Not very party animals, in this respect. So all gossips internationally, Russian media plain omits, and nobody asks them to tell either. :o)))) None of our business, beyond our borders. Well, we are interested, and react nervously, when "bigger Russia" says something, old family :o))), by inertia. That's why LOL I am afraid Russians are more inclined to open their ear to what Latvia or Ukraine babble about than what any US president says :o)))
And anyway most Russians only know 2 of your presidents - Kennedy (who we liked) and "the current one".
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Before Marcus and Democracy Threat engage in the entertaining Clash of the Titans --both good writers and much learned--oh yes DemoT... fawn faun fawn faun lol" --here is my take on foreign policy in Europe (outside of).
Europe's problem here stems from having so many "foreign" responsibilities INSIDE Europe....ie, Greece at present..so being too preoccupied with the "inner frontier."
For outer frontiers Europe must present at least 3 or 4 heads of state and that is reality for the future---use conference calling:)
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Mavrelius, democracythreat is right. Who could ever tell a mojahed from a taliban member or whatever? Even their current president says they are all ordinary Afghani. Still, I am not here to improve you LOL, I only mentally add up another cartridge every time into my "what to do" Russia's list. I read MaudDib's link to about Jane Fonda. 350 commentaries below. You are beyond improvement :o)))) And alright.
None of our business. Our business is only to watch that you don't get into improving us.
Why so many countries allowed you to improve them is beyond my understanding. Apparently, wanted something from you, or couldn't kick you off.
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Tell me better a practical thing :o) - is it still a draft into the army as it was in Vietnam times, as it's said in jane Fonda link or is it self-willingly now? But can become a draft in case of a bigger than ordinary war?
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WA;
It was President Reagan who called the USSR an evil empire. Visiting West Berlin he famously said "Mister Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" Upon visitig the USSR about a year before his term was up, around 1987 I think a reporter asked him while walking through the streets of Moscow? if he thought the USSR was still an evil empire. At that time he said no.
Kennedy was a very weak president. Khrushchev tested him with by erecting the Berlin wall I think around 1961. Khrushchev knew Kennedy was weak and felt he could bully him. But events surrounding the Cuban Missile Crisis spun out of control, even out of Kennedy's control. Kennedy cabled Khrushchev at the height of it that he didn't know how much longer he could control his generals. They were demanding an attack directly on the missile launch sites which would have killed many Russians as well as Cubans. It was expected that such an act would quickly escalate to total thermonuclear war between the US and USSR. Khrushchev many have judged Kennedy correctly but he completely misjudged the situation. This was an object lesson for anyone who studied it, ultimately the US military is not under civilian control, not completely and not where the perception that the nation's survival is at stake. It's a thought that anyone contemplating an attack on the US including an attack on the White House should consider.
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Web Alice and Maudib,
Watch the movies "Klute" and "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?" to see Jane as a great actress.
Just the once, Maudib, for World Peace? LOL Pleeeeeease?
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Web Alice,
Yes there is no draft.
The army is for professional soldiery types or for careers for many people whom are desperate for a JOB, any JOB. So, it really still is finally realized by Americans that duty in the army is a thankless "hard slog."
One politician, John Kerry, unfortunately said its a place for high school dropouts--Depressingly stupid remark to make.
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David, I've seen the film two I think (the Klute don't know what it means, a name?), if it was translated here "The driven (up to death) horses are to be shot down." About a pair who were dancing, dancing, dancing until about dropped dead? Don't remember how it ended up, and didn't realise it was Jane Fonda, but yes it was a very strong dancing scene. Film. (horrors! horrors of capitalism! :o)))) I think it was on wide screens in the USSR across.
(One doesn't even need to write a review on such a film,
it speaks for itself :o)))))
MA, I don't know what big head LOL Khrushev was thinking, Russians didn't see Kennedy as "weak", simply he was outgoing, naughty, boyish, pleasant to look at, then the girls, human, how to say.
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"not under civilian control".
I guess, it is useless to ask you to locate-condense army in, say, one side of the USA :o)))), while all the rest, for a short while, gather in another location? :o))))) Though, feasible, if all your army one day ends up on missions abroad. ? :o)))))
MA I can recommend you a solution, but for that you need a say, quite a material pres. Our PM when not PM, I think had some thoughts about army. Because, how to say, since KGB put away much of them pre2ndWW they were traditionally not of high opinion about each other :o))))
I even think if to carefully study revelations of our spies defected abroad, one would see a pattern - either pattern 1 - military intelligence GRU says nice things ab KGB, wishing them rapid improvement of their networks abroad :o))))) or KGB says nice things about GRU, to the same effect.
Currently we have defense minister appointed by Putin out of the ranks of furniture makers. A very peaceful chap. When army, Navy and airfleet got the news :o))))
But we survived his appointment. When Obama is able to appoint the chief commander out of his sleeve, from beyond what military wish, you get two powers in the USA together.
Warning - the appointment time can be quite a trying time :o)))) but who doesn't risk, how to say - doesn't drink champaign. :o))))
You may look among bakers :o)))) grocery? fruit and vegetables stalls? :o)))) McDonald's waiters? This is nevermind, what matters is the will of the President.
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MarcusA (#163) statement that "ultimately the US military is not under civilian control" is nonsense. President Kennedy was inexperienced, not weak. He was strong enough to resist the air force generals who wanted to attack the missile sites, and thoughtful enough to find the right solution with the help of his civilian and military advisers. The blockade was the right strategy. It worked.
We in the US were told at the time that Kennedy forced the Soviets to back down. What is now known is that there was also an agreement by the US to remove nuclear missiles from Turkey. The end result was good for both the US and the Soviet Union: the removal of nuclear tipped missiles from Cuba and Turkey.
Here is a link to a summary of the incident:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDcubanmissile.htm
Unfortunately, Kennedy's presidency was too short to judge him fairly. We can only speculate whether he would have avoided escalating the Vietnam involvement to outright war, which soon happened under President Johnson.
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David
I'll forgive Jane when you forgive George. :] Or is it John and Marsha?
"On Golden Pond" was pretty good but of course that's because of Hank and Katie. And that's all I got to say about that.
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WA;
As the war in Vietnam came to a close in the early 1970s, it was clear that the military draft did not work well for the US. Around 1971 a lottery system was started based on date of birth. A few years later it was replaced by an all volunteer military. There is no compulsory military service or service of any kind in the United States. All of the people who serve are there by their own choice. Serving in the US military has many advantages. Besides learning self discipline which many young people and adults lack, there are opportunities both within the service and later when you leave the service. The service can provide an excellent education in many areas including officer training at one of the big military colleges such as West Point, Anapolis etc., degrees in engineering and other professions, and the chance to learn many trades such as electricain, mechanic, computer technician, telecomminucations, navigation, just to name a few. Military pay does not compete well against private industry but after leaving the military you get benefits of medical care at VA hospitals, perferential loans for buying a house, student loans. People who make a lifelong career of the military also get a pension. However, pay is disproportionately high in the US military budget compared to most other countries.
Morale in the US military is very high and US service personnel usually take great pride in themselves. Military service is held in high regard in some regions especially the south. Generally it is sometimes sneered at by certain people in the Northeast cities, on college campuses, and in California but I think most Americans agree we need a strong military. The military is now fully integrated racially, sexwise, and now homosexuals will soon likely be fully accepted without any need to hide their sexual orientation. There is no hazing or anything remotely like that such as is common in the Russian military. Sexual harassment of women military personnel has also been pretty much brought under control. Comaradery is usually very strong. I think most in the service are at least high school graduates with probably a lot of college grads too. Several years ago when it appeared there might not be enough people entering the service, Representative Charles Rangell of New York City suggested bringing back the draft. Not only did most others in Congress object but so did those in charge at the military too and it was virtually unanimous. They said they didn't want anyone in the service who didn't want to be there. The US military focuses on quality of individuals, not quantity although it is large. Not nearly as large as some others such as China's but it is far more effective. Whenever the US military goes into combat, for every seviceman that sees combat there are a lot of others who play support roles so when you hear there are 100,000 US servicemen in Afghanistan for example, only a small proportion are actually doing the fighting.
The US military routinely gives aid to people in trouble around the world especially in remote places where its ability to organize and move large quantities of material and large numbers of people quickly is unparalleled. After a few agonizing first days after the earthquake, there were over 10,000 US military personnel on the ground in Haiti with many thousands more on ships just off shore with a lot more backing them up in the US working on logistics and playing other support roles back home. Once the decision to act had been taken by President Bush in the aftermath of hurricaine Katrina, the US military was evacuating large numbers of people within a couple of hours and had many out within a day or two. The US military played a major role in bringing relief to widespread areas affected by the Tsunami in the Indian Ocean. Usually you don't hear much about these activities.
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WebAlice (#162) " ... is it still a draft into the army as it was in Vietnam times, ... or is it self-willingly now? But can become a draft in case of a bigger than ordinary war?"
The US armed forces are all volunteer, and are likely to remain so. Warfare has become more technological, requiring fewer, but more highly trained soldiers. I expect it would be difficult for the US Army today to process large numbers of draftees, even if they wanted to (which they don't). They want professional soldiers who stay in the service long enough to make good use of their training.
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GH;
"He was strong enough to resist the air force generals who wanted to attack the missile sites, and thoughtful enough to find the right solution with the help of his civilian and military advisers."
That is not correct. The proposal of a blockade and the decision to respond to one of Khrushchev's two last cables and not the other was the idea of only one person, Bobby Kennedy, the President's brother and the Attorney General.
"The blockade was the right strategy. It worked."
It only worked because the USSR didn't try to run it. If they had, it would have been instant war. It was one last desperate gamble. The presence of the nuclear armed missles in Cuba was unacceptable to the Joint Chiefs, the sentiment was unanimous and unequivocal.
The removal of the missiles in Turkey was going to happen anyway. They were liquid fueld Jupiter missiles that were obsolete. Kennedy asked that the quid pro quo be kept secret by the Soviets and that the missiles would be removed in 6 months so that it didn't make him look even weaker in the eyes of the public.
Had the blockade not worked or had there been no other suggestion, the attack on the Russian launch sites would have proceeded within hours had the President approved it or not. And he knew it. It was not going to be tolerated by the military and nobody could stop them from eliminating them. There are a lot of excellent books documenting the crisis. I suggest you read a few of them, they are most instructive of how the US government works in the most extreme of crises.
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#168 GH
In retrospect Kennedy looks pretty good. Maybe because he died young and didn't get to step in it like a lot of them do. Knowing how the press has evolved he wouldn't have made it today in this tabloid era. The Bay of Pigs thing still bothers me. Who can say for sure how that really went down. George Sr. who I have admiration for, basically did the same thing to the Kurds at the end of First Gulf War. I'm thinking anyone wanting to be President of anything other than the local lodge is either narcissistic or a masochist or both.
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MadLib
He doesn't look so good to me. First of all he was fooling around making Bill Clinton, Gary Hart, and John Edwards combined look like monks. He had everything there was in a skirt from Maralyn Monroe to Angie Dickenson. Even Jackie knew it. They didn't call him "Jack the Zipper" for nothing.
The full story of the Bay of Pigs is well known. It went something like this. The plan was hatched during Eisenhower's administration. I think it was the CIA that backed a bunch of Cuban expats in Florida who were going to "invade" Cuba and retake it from Castro. The plan didn't have a prayer of succeeding. The Soviet representative to the UN, probably Gromyko called it right in the UN at a security council meeting a few days before it was supposed to take place. Kennedy ordered the CIA to back off from supporting it because he didn't want to allow the Soviets to be proven right. And the invaison such as it was happened anyway and the fiasco is history. It gave Castro the pretext he needed to bring the USSR into Cuba to prevent another attempt. It should be recalled that many Americans supported the overthrow of Batista and the US government did nothing to try to stop it. Like many Communists of the era Castro called himself an "agrarian reformer" who just wanted to bring social justice to Cuba after so many years of dictatorship. Allowing the USSR to gain a foothold on the Western Hemisphere almost resulted in the extinction of the entire human species only about two and a half years later. So how good does Kennedy really look in retrospect? Not very good at all.
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George Sr or George Jr?
And I dont know either of them. Democracy won that battle. George Sr was hated but after Reagan was a relief and I don't blame bad decades for my depressions even during
poorly administered presidencies.
George Jr was a big time fool and got what he put into his work---abject disdain for His ideas as he had for the (any) opposition ideas.
He knew little or nothing about capitalism OR fiscal responsibilities.
AND he showed the world our financial limits in fighting two wars--outing us and degrading himself, not me. He can grow old without my interest.
As for John and Marsha.... I don't watch soap operas.
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Marcus
I'm always encouraged if we make it to the next president. That means for what ever reason, we didn't destroy the world and nobody else did either. It's kinda like reading the obituaries in the newspaper to make sure you're not in there.
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A lighter note
you tube, to dial
Harlamov - Hit the road Jack
(Russsian attempt at :o), with our accent)
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David
I never thought for one minute that you were up to the task.
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We also longly badly want professional army but it still makes very small percent of the total, and the generals get cataleptical when they are about to be denied the draft totally. Insisting that they absolutely can not do without, "look at the length of the borderline" and other usual excuses.
Last year though there was an improvement - it is now 1 year only of trouble, not 2 years as before (and 3 years it was always for Navy somehow unlucky in particular :o)
As to perks to the army nothing missing on this side either, in terms of entering universities after and pension and military hospitals' service but the salary itself does not attract anyone.
So those who pursue it as a career do it for ? because some want to, whatever the pay. Someone's granddad was in the army and father and he also wants to be. Plus totally un-lucky in life small children, of distant villages lost and poor or lacking a parent or both sometimes get to the cadets' schools, though very little. The competition for cadet schools is very high, many parents want to ? "accommodate" theiir children this way, exams are awful, you need additional tutors, forget right out of home or an ordinary school, health requirements also high.
Though what to demand of children 8 or 12 years old is a mystery to me but somehow last summer for example, in St. Petersburg, there were lots of complaints to the Defense Minister, of parents, whose sons were turned down. First they got a paper that they "passed", then when the Order of the defense Minister was published listing names of kids across the country who are taken into service - they didn't find their names there, complained to Putin to Medvedev were about to go to court what not.
So it has radical difference here in attitude it seems - from "very much want to" to "will pay any bribes to avoid". Can't explain, no particular difference in families, simply some want and some don't.
On Kennedy to read, I think my first book in English was "Memoir of a unique man and a magnificent friendship with Kennedy". And the only book :o)))) No, I had two before that I am highly trained in - Mother Goose rhymes and Alice of course, you know, where.
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Of the bay of pigs nobody heard here. I only read in the earlier comments here in the blogs and wondered what bay and what pigs :o)))
As I said, we are not very much informed and were not, of what happens elsewhere. So you may morally rest a bit :o)) that there is one country , who even in the Cold war didn't chew your mishaps or failures :o)))) Anyway, what to take, or how to say, to expect :o))) - of Americans ? :o)))) Well, jazz, and? ? Some washing machines, automated things, in every kitchen there. and ?
:o))))))
On the Turkey I think someone kept the promise I had no idea we objected to you placing something in Turkey ever, again, until someone noticed here in these blogs. Not a matter of common knowledge definitely.
Khruschev was simply labeled here "made a mistake", type - you can't win - don't poke around.
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Re # 96:
You are correct to note that facts are un-American. They are all known Communists and must be dealt with firmly...
I highly recommend an article in the London Review of Books from a few years back on the subject of the Lockerbie bombing. I'm afraid I don't have the specific info at my fingertips but the LRB's website archive is searchable; disappointingly I now don't remember all the specifics of this case so I ought to read it again myself. It's apparently an open secret that the Libyan man convicted of the bombing was a random individual and that Libya had absolutely no relationship to the bombing but was used as a convenient scapegoat because the CIA had been funding a splinter group of Palestinian militants, who then surprised the CIA by bombing the airliner which exploded above Lockerbie. This is according to the author of the article, but the author also documents the tortuous saga of the criminal case against the man who has now been convicted of the bombing - and it does become clear that, whatever the exact specifics of whose fingers were caught in which jars, there was overwhelming pressure from the American government on the trial process which at any number of junctures threatened to unravel - given that there were multiple solid pieces of evidence that the entire identification of the man on trial had been a sham. Remembering this article from a few years ago, I did note with interest that, as I saw a clip of US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's condemnation of the "hero's greeting" the "Lockerbie bomber" received upon returning to Libya, she did seem to be at great pains to avoid directly asserting that he was actually guilty. Her exact statement struck me as strangely convoluted, given the finality of the context and given that she naturally must be aware that people in various parts of the world will be familiar with some of the material outlined in that LRB article; still she didn't directly assert he was guilty.
Look, who knows (personally I buy it but I'm not married to it). Anyway it's one of these articles that is well worth reading. If Americans were readers, then they'd have ways to understand how it's possible for people elsewhere to assert things that Americans tell each other are completely untrue. The problem is that regardless of whether this particular article is accurate in this particular case, anyone who can read is aware that in life there are always many stories about every particular event or issue. Americans only watch TV news. They've all seen the exact same story, the TV news consensus of an event. But in a literate society people don't all read only one article, everybody reads different ones and then if people have a conversation everyone has to hash out what in the hell may be happening - but if 300 million people only have three TV streams of video clips that are all considered uncontroversial enough to run television ads around, these 300 million people have only seen one story! It's kind of like taking one air sample from a single collection point, sending it for a single lab test, and then breathing a sigh of relief that there wasn't a radioactive leak at the nuclear plant near the collection point because this air envelope didn't have elevated levels of radioactivity - so everybody in the city near the plant complaining that their hair is falling out must be crazy, no need to have the lab run the test again.
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WA;
There's an old saying that what you don't know can't hurt you. There isn't any truth in it. What you don't know can kill you. Here's how we saw your "mistake" your beloved leader;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F_V2fQCKe4
In this particular incident he had attacked Dag Hammarskjold the Secretary General of the UN demanding he resign because he did not like the UN's efforts to bring peace in the Congo. This was the beginning of the USSR's efforts to capture Africa extending the cold war to that troubled continent. You can see at about 4 minutes 50 seconds how when he had been rebuked by all of the world's leaders including King Hussein of Jordan and Nehru of India and Hammarskjold said he wouldn't resign, he began pounding the table. On another occasion he took off his shoe and started banging the table when he didn't like what the representative of the Phillipines said about the USSR taking over Eastern Europe and denying its citizens their rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-banging_incident
I recall seeing it on TV when it happened but I found it hard to find on Youtube. There is no doubt it happened.
His most famous quote was a warning to America and the West "We will bury you." Talk about misintrepation, it sounded like a direct threat of war. What it was later said to mean was that Communism would exist after Capitalism was gone. To us he was a warlike brute, a peasant who had risen to power in the usual Soviet manner during the Stalinist era.
But even we didn't know that the beginning of a Soviet War with China had already been born. This was later documented in Harrison E. Salisbury's book "The Coming War Between Russia and China"
Here's Wiki's account of the conflict which never actually came to war;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split
In a famous story, Chou En Lai was said to have told Khrushchev on an airplane flight they were on together that China would not make peace with Russia for 10,000 years. Khrushchev said to Lai that's an awfully long time, don't you think it might come sooner. Lai thought for a minute and said maybe 9000 years.
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@ 88 colinhow
Further to your post and in addition of my last post @94 I feel tempted to develop your initial idea about the irreversible US policy aimed at ‘waging wars’ at least once per 10 years in order to maintain both the strength of the dollar and of the American economy. To that matter, it would be logical to meditate over the feasibility of a pure EU defence organization in order to avoid whatever involvement of the European countries in conflicts, initiated directly or indirectly by the White House. I am ware of all the possible political & economic obstacles the EU is to overcome if it has the will to get rid of the American cooperation in this field and consequently, if it really needs to dissolve the NATO structures.
Of course, before doing so, a debate is to be initiated within the EU institutions over the general basic reasons for the establishment of a common European defence organization, a debate which necessarily must be followed by important decisions and funding that would make possible our common defence structures. If we fail doing so, then we MUST agree that we still NEED the US military cooperation no matter how illogical and even ridiculous (at times) the US arguments over the dangers for our (western) civilization may be.
Sofia, Febr. 7th 2010
Generalissimo
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Doctuer_Eiffel wrote:
"Same applies to the "United" STATES of America.
Perhaps the USA should now be called the DSA
Disunited States of America."
American states don't see themselves as individual "countries?" They also certainly do not see it as their task to set foreign policy. That is what the federal government does. European countries are just that, countries.
Individual countries in Europe do not equal American states. Sorry.
"Just because the USA wants to remain a third world country without national healthcare we don't have to follow them down into that cess pit.
Neither do we have to follow them into social fracture, or financial slavery to China."
Who is asking you to "follow" America "down into" anything having to do with health care? America's health care is no business of yours if you are not American.
What's your problem with something that obviously has nothing to do with you?
Also, the entire West has sold out to China, a country that persecutes, imprisons and murders people for simply expressing their opinions, in the name of cheaper products for more profits.
"Europe looks better by the day. Greece is just symptomatic of a global condition. There are STATES in the USA far more broke than Greece.
Europe is not a country.
As I said, European countries in Europe do not equal American states and never will. Dream on.
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AnonymousBE wrote:
"I believe that the United States has a lot to learn from Europe, in particular about creating a real social safety net and a cohesive society."
Americans will choose what they feel is best for them. It doesn't have to do what other parts of the world do.
Europe is also not a country.
"Whatever the merits of invading Iraq, it was some individual European countries, such as Britain, Denmark, Poland, etc., that helped the U.S., not the EU. When it comes to culture and trade, people think of German cars, French wine, and Italian opera - there is no EU identity."
Exactly.
"However, the EU has done various things very much not in America's interest. That is not to say that the main reason was to weaken America, but this was the effect in part."
Much of the motivation and propaganda put out there for creating an EU is anti-American nature. A weakened America is most certainly desired.
"1. In trading with EU member states, America is at a disadvantage, as there is free trade between all EU states, so that even a lower-cost American exporter may not be able to compete because of tariffs."
2. For Americans working in Europe, the establishment of the EU has been a huge disadvantage. When applying for a job in any EU country, an American now has literally dozens of nationalities who will have an easier time to take that job without restrictions or bureaucratic red tape.
3. The same applies to Americans wanting to set up a business in Europe.
4. The creation of the euro has created a credible threat to the use of the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency. Countries such as Iran have tried to use the euro as a reserve currency given their issues with the U.S. But, more fundamentally, a shift away from the dollar as the world's reserve currency would have real economic costs for the U.S.
To make things concrete though, let's imagine an American trying to apply for a job in the UK, competing with a German. 40 years ago, the American would have been given preference. 20 years ago, the American and the German would have been treated equally. Today, the German, BY LAW, is given preference over the American.
So, maybe if the EU wants Obama's attendance so much, then it should start acting in such a way that is less against American interests."
I disagree. I see nothing wrong with a group of states freely and democratically (of course the free and the democratic part doesn't apply to the EU, but that' another topic) in some kind of Union and then giving preference to its own citizens for jobs and its own companies for goods and services.
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BienvenueEnLouisiana wrote:
"As for the EU, I'm actually a proponent of the organization, though I've been disappointed that it seems to have added to the confusion of who is the go-to guy in Europe. I'm still of the opinion that the EU is Europe's version of the American government under the Articles of Confederation.
Doctuer_Eiffel, the US is far more united politically than Europe is under the EU; we've had 200 + years of Federal government which means we've got the experience y'all don't have. Even if we seem disunited or uncivil to you, we're almost without exception united in our respect for our Constitution regardless of our squabbles."
The EU "Constitution" was around 500 pages long. How could anyone ever "respect" something like that? The American Constitution can be carried in a tiny pamphlet in your wallet or pocket.
And how can any American "respect" an institution that is so anti-American and so undemocratic?
Many Europphiles, for some bizarre reason, like to think that European countries are the equivalent of America's states. They can't get it through their heads that America and American culture was created and developed within a relatively short period of history with people that had much in common so that despite expected things like different regional accents and foods Americans share a very powerful and familiar bond with each other. They have a shared and common culture.
You see a perfect example of that in America's military where you've had millions of Americans easily coexisting and interacting with each other from every state.
The EU and the Europhiles can dream on but there is no such a thing as a European culture, especially that is anywhere near the equivalent of American culture, and there likely never will be.
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Nossnevs wrote:
"I loved the 60s. That's when I grew up. And you are still living there? Kennedy started the peace corps. Several countries in "old Europe" copied it! None protested. Your men on the Moon? Great, I was thrilled at the time. But that was then. And now? The Russians are the taxi drivers to the International Space Station. The American shuttles are fine unless they crash. And the last I heard, Obama postponed the new Moon program. Could it have anything to do with the perpetual wars being bad investments?"
The so-called International Space Station was mostly funded by and built by America (even much of the Russian contribution was funded by America) and could not have been assembled with those Shuttles you are now mocking.
I don't see any country in Europe with a Shuttle equivalent. Jealous, perhaps?
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Nossnevs wrote:
"Interesting, all these comments... One big difference is that Americans glorify their military and admire men in uniforms. The US has become more and more militarized, while Europe has gone the other way. Europeans have 0 enthusiasm for building empires and running wars in third world countries. They have "been there, done that" (the French, British, etc, colonial empires that collapsed with WW2). The Americans seem almost fanatical about that. And it is in that area the Americans are so bitter, which clearly shows in these comments."
That's a laugh. The main reason for creating a European Union is for power and the recreating of long lost "empires." That is what the the EU and the Europhiles are all about. Those people are the ones who are so "bitter" and resentful over America's success on the world stage that they have to constantly put it down as something sinister sounding like building and sustaining an empire. They are the ones that are trying to create a European version of America that will supposedly be better than America. Those people are the ones that truly want an empire.
"People in Europe are quite happy to waste money on "welfare" (=their fellow citizens)"
Europe is not a country.
"while the Americans, at least their representatives in Washington, never question the soon approaching one (American, with 12 zeros) trillion dollars they spend on "warfare"."
That is their choice as a free and democratic nation. As a non-American it isn't any of your business how America chooses to spend it own money.
"Same thing with infrastructure. Compare a trip now and 20 years ago between major cities in Europe and the USA. Berlin-Paris-Madrid, say, vs Boston-NY-Miami or Seattle-San Francisco-LA. Where is the investment and choice and improvement?"
Also compare how much it costs to drive on say a French highway from Paris down to the Med, for example. Would you like me to quote some prices?
For mostly free highways, especially for foreigners, it isn't bad at all.
And if you don't like our highways or infrastructure then stay in Europe or travel elsewhere! Why complain about something that has absolutely nothing to do with you as a non-American? Is that why you came to America, to criticize and find fault to make yourself feel better or superior as a so-called European?
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To WebAliceinwonderland (151):
In case of Germany, what might interest you and maybe others is that the German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle made a public suggestion that the EU should in long term have its own army.
http://www.france24.com/en/20100206-german-foreign-minister-guido-westerwelle-backs-long-term-european-union-army
While I don't automatically rubber stamp everything that is coming out of Germany, this is something that I most certainly will accept and aplaud. We already spend approx 388 billion USd yearly on defense which is enough, but the results aren't that impressive. With economies of scale, with that kind of money combined together, we could have pretty impressive armed forces and defence systems, including in long term systems to nullify nuclear weapons delivered by ballistic and cruise missiles.
In case of the American anti-ballistic missile defense, the reason why they are building a base first in Czech and then to Romania has all to do with..
A) ..curvature of the earth that makes the shortest trajectory of an missile from Iran to USA go via Europe. Just take a globe and start measuring with a string on what is the shortest yearny from Iran to USA. Remember that earth is not flat map.
B) ..you have to possitively identify first that a missile has been launched, then calculate its trajectory and then launch anti-ballistic missiles against it. If you take your anti-ballistic missiles too near a site of potential launch, you don't have enough time to send your missiles to intercept it.
The Romanian base is purely against to eliminate the threat that Iran poses. When the USA starts to build missile defense bases on Greenland and northern Canada, then it is a real deal on eliminating the Russian nuclear threath.
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I suppose for most of the 20th C the paint was still new on the ship of state USA. Folks were still excited about being American and everything was possible. Gradually the dynamic of the place seems to be changing and indeed it's population base is definitely being altered with hispanic migrations from the South. Lawlessness and couldn't care less seem to be on the increase rather than "can do". The UK also seems to be suffering a similar malaise and loss of identity, submerged by over regulation, imaginary fears of terror and grinding to a halt in traffic jams.
Maybe they deserve each other.
Vive la Difference.
PS Well done to the American Aid to Haiti and to Homer Simpson III for highlighting it.
PPS. Americans please note with diligence - Europeans are NOT jealous of you. Come as tourists but take your weaponry back to some concrete bunker in Arizon (poor Arizona). You've outstayed your welcome with that kind of stuff here...things have moved on.
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The cold war was essentially portrayed as a conflict between ideologies. On the one hand we hand capitalism, and private property governing the political process of selecting elected representatives. On the other hand, we had the socialist state, where only the party members had any real control over property, and where the party controlled the political process of selecting elected representatives.
Now the cold war and everything that went with it, such as NATO and the distinct possibility of immediate global destruction, was all based upon the conflict between these two systems. Crazy or not, the men and women who claimed to be saving us from ourselves by spending vast sums of money on military hardware could divide the globe into good and evil, based upon the concept of state ownership of property. If you thought it was bad, you were good, and visa versa.
So my question is now "What is NATO for?"
More to the point, "why do we fight?"
The discussions on this thread, regarding geopolitical conflict, fall into two categories. On the one hand we have contributors like Marcus, who are essentially reliving the glory of the cold war, and telling stories about what went on back in the good old days when men were men and bad guys wore black hats. Leaving aside the spurious accuracy of much of what is recalled, this nostalgia is at least based in the ideological premise of the cold war.
But the other category of comments pertaining to geopolitical conflict are altogether bizarre, insofar as they do not have even the slightest reference to any reason for conflict. We have on this thread, and indeed in our governments and militaries, people who are making the case for war without first specifying any reason to go to war.
Now that sounds insane, and indeed it is, but this is what we see in our modern time. This is the stark fact of NATO. It is an organization all dressed up for war, but with nowhere to go.
The discussion of the need for military capability and alliance is now based upon the incredibly infantile idea that nations are sentient yet paranoid individuals competing for prestige in a some ultra violent global sporting event. We are presented with folks who honestly believe that the USA is "protecting Europe and that europe is ungrateful". they don't say what europe is being protected against, and that doesn't seem to matter. We have others who believe that a few Saudi nationals flying aircraft into a few buildings 8 years ago is a worthy reason to launch two wars and occupy two nations indefinitely. Neither of them Saudi Arabia.
Then in the press we have a never ending screaming hysteria because a certain nation in the middle east might (must, surely?) develop a complex understanding of nuclear physics. This is despite the fact that Pakistan and Israel already possess an arsenal of nuclear weapons.
It seems to me that we don't really know why we have militaries anymore, we only know we have them. We know we spend a truly incredible sum of money on the toys of megalomaniacs and mass murderers, and we know that a staggering amount of private fortunes are made every year via military supply contracts.
I find it curious that the business of the military suppliers is so obviously about business, and yet they go about their despicable trade with as much impunity as they ever did, in days when less than 1% of the world was literate and information moved at the speed of the donkey.
That war is a business and a sport for the recipients of government contracts seems the one great truth that people do not want to know. Saying that the nation as a sentient being is a fraud is the one great heresy of our time. It is like saying their is no partisan god who only loves a small fraction of humanity. Saying there is no partisan god takes away the fantastic feeling of expectation of joy in the next life. Saying there is no sentient nation state takes away the fantastic feeling of pride and belonging in this life.
It seems a pity that individual people can't have develop a soporific fantasy of their own, and need to share whatever crazy story is preached to them from above. Then again, I suppose that would be a world where everybody was crazy, insofar as madness is the guy who believes something different.
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Adelechanel
Re #190
"...the UK seems to be suffering a similar malaise (as the USA).."
Please, I suppose you are able to reference these reflections on 2 Nations from your vast experience?
I mean, when did you last visit Cornwall, Lincolnshire, Bedfordshire?
I mean, when did you last live and work in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland?
Similarly, do tell us of your broad knowledge of Alaska, Hawaii, Oregon etc.?
Look, I make comments about the dangers of France-Germany via the EU having hegemony over Europe, but at least try to make clear I am referring to their Government policies and/or specific areas within those Nations' structure. The French and German Citizens are entitled to a deal of respect that I may not afford their Governments and some of their National Institutions.
How can you possibly write, "..gradually the dynamic of the place (USA/UK) seems to be changing..", which may or may not be a fair general assessment and then ridiculously equate it to, "..Lawlessness and couldn't care less seem to be on the increase..", without the slightest attempt to qualify and/or quantify such a massive generalisation about an entire Peoples (especially as you appear to be trying to make a link to a particular group of people 'Hispanic'!)?
USA and UK may "..deserve each other.." as you say: However, millions of Citizens of both Nations deserve a lot better assessement of who and what they are about than the utterly futile and inaccurate, "..grinding to a halt in traffic jams..".
This suggests you have either seen or been in traffic in London and New York and think they are the United Kingdom and United States of America!
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christophergill
Re #181
"...apparently it is an open secret..Libyan man picked at random..CIA... Palestinians..conspiracy.."
Oh dear, yet another, it is all the fault of those 'yanks'!
Global Warming, 9/11, no Tsunami warning, Rwanda genocide, Chinese in Tibet... to our last cat getting run over by that car that didn't stop!
Damn Washington, damn the Oval Office, damn Pentagon--- damn them all for thinking our cat was an easier target than Bin Laden in a cave!
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MAII - Interesting video
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Jukka-Rohilla
Re #135
"...You are not Finnish.. You are merely a guest here.."
Miaow...
Ooh er... someone very touchy had his claws come out!
Honestly J_R., I have been in Finland on and off since 1969: You were not even born, so, let's have a little less of the proud nationalism. On occasion you have, on here, described mine and your own veteran forefathers as 'passe' when discussing WW2!
That you have an almost unique view of what constitutes "aggressor" in terms of the History of WW1 and WW2 is absolutely your right: To put it as you do, neglecting to mention Austria had attacked Serbia and Germany was already crossing Belgium and Russia's borders before either Britain or France had fired a shot in August 1914, simply reveals your remarkable variant on the annals of Military conflict.
Similarly for WW2: Britain is an 'aggressor' on September 3rd 1939, whilst Nazi Germany had already been in 'west' Poland 3 days, and the Soviet Union about to invoke the secret clause to invade 'east' Poland (Russo-German/Molotov-Ribbetropp Non-Aggression Pact)!
Yet, (in previous comments) you seek to accuse Stalin's Russia of 'aggression' against Finland in November 1939 and June 1941 - - something of an exceptional double-standard - - is it not "false" then to ascribe to Finland an "innocent" party in the debacle of WW2 when it allied with Fascism and is therefore complicit in the horrors of genocide etc.!?
J_R, it is not that I have ever written or claimed G.B. was innocent in wars: No Nation can be in such a matter - - where there is any conflict the 2 or more sides must have some of the fault/responsibility - - but, you are "wrong", totally wrong to assert an equal fault and responsibility to Britain (and indeed indirectly therefore to UK's ally in both wars, France) as that held by Germany in the origins and opening of each conflict.
Therefore, as a matter of Historical fact as opposed to your imagined course of events on the mainland of Europe from around the close of the Battle of Dettingen (1743) and King George II's magnificent victory over France's forces G.B. became a concerned observor of European affairs: (see my #104) thus, I repeat, '..for 200 years.. UK has not been an aggressor except by invitation since the mid-18th Century.'
Of course, it is true, G.B. was very busily going about the Americas, Indian Sub-continent, Asia and Africa in the first 100 of those 200yrs brutally colonising - - it then took another 100 of sometimes brutal and sometimes relatively peaceful withdrawal - - net result, by the era of the Cold War, along with most of 'west' Europe it was able to contribute large forces to NATO and the highly effective defence of 'democratic' Europe.
Finland, on the other hand, followed the Kekkonen line (whom I and my wife met a couple of times - - name-dropping, I know - - but, as a Military attache in the late '70s we merely shook hands and the great Finn moved on to those that mattered): A Neutrality of sorts, and frankly, you and I are in modern day Finland openly discussing and debating these issues because of his 'international-political' astuteness post Finn-Soviet Treaty (plus the superb efforts of Finns circa 1917 to 1945).
Still, it's so 'passe' isn't it, the sacrifices made and swallowing of inner spirit by your forefathers, in order that their children, and you, might be able to suggest given a free, democratic choice the Finnish Citizen need not have made the hard, harsh, difficult decisions that inhabit every Nation's past!?
Let me close this off:
'Hear me, son of Pohja's country,
Pohjola's illustrious master!
Awkward, tis in room to combat,
Trouble would it give the women,
If the clean room should be damaged,
And with blood defiled the flooring,
Let us got into the courtyard,
In the field outside to battle,
On the grass outside to combat,
In the yard the blood looks better,
In the yard it looks more lovely,
On the snow it looks more fitting.'
From: The Duel At Pohjola, Kalevala (lines 322 to 333)
My Wife's translation.
In retrospect everything always looks so much easier and better from the outside: Blood always seeps and washes away and there was much of it on the snow in previous times. Hindsight - - it is marvellously beguiling!
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For a continent whose tourist industry consists of dragging troupes of Americans (and now Japanese and Chinese) visitors around from one ancient ruin or museum to another all the while putting them up in third rate hotels and feeding them fifth rate food at the most exhorbitant prices (oh how many can claim they saw 16 countries in 22 days in s package tour) Europeans know almost nothing of their own history especially during the 20th century. They do not know how it evolved to what it is and why it cannot remain as it is. As it crumbles, they will remain stupefied, clueless to why it is happening. The financial crisis that began in America which they gladly and greedily adopted only accelerated a process that was already well advanced. What is happening now was inevitable all along.
After the shambles of two world war, Europe was in dire shape and Western Europe in particular was very vulnerable to Soviet takeover in the late 1940s. The lure of easy and guaranteed prosperity the Trojan Horse, the Siren Song that was held out to lure them into the maw of what was truly an evil empire without the slighest shadow of a doubt provided the seeds for fear of yet another inevitable European war that would suck America into it. The Soviet empire was every bit as evil as Hitler's Nazi empire was.
To prevent this, the US needed to rebuild Western Europe quickly and bring some measure of prosperity to it while at the same time defending it from invasion the way Eastern Europe had been lost. Greece and Austria almost fell into the Soviet orbit and were only narrowly snatched away. But America's government could hardly do this alone, it didn't have either the resources or expertise. The Marshall plan was only created to keep millions of people from starving to death and to give them shelter to live in during the direct aftermath of WWII. It was only an emergency stop gap measure. The real heavy lifting was done by large American industry, the big corporations. This was facillitated by a series of incentives including modification of the tax structure and tarrif structure which gave these industries reasons to invest in war torn Europe and a huge and relatively wealthy export market in America for its newly produced goods while allowing Western Europe to protect its domestic markets. NATO was created as a mechanism for America to provide for Western Europe's military defense and to control it so that these nations would not go to war against each other again. America became the largest military and economic power in Europe because it was the only way to bring Western Europe back from the dead. That mission was accoplished a long time ago and the last vestiges of it, the presence of American military in large numbers at great cost to Americans and the tax structure which allows what have become global corporations based in America to avoid paying taxes on their overseas profits is going to come to an end soon, there being no further need for it and American can't afford it anymore anyway.
But Europe never had a culture that gave incentives for private investment, innovation, or rewarded the success that only risk, enterprise, and invention can bring. Instead it is still ruled by the same mental attitudes of empire, bureaucracy, high taxes, the welfare state, socialism, oligarchies, it has always been ruled by. In the real world that exists today, when taken as a whole beyond its borders, it cannot compete with the likes of the US, Japan, Canada, East Asia, South Asia, Brazil, Israel, or other far more dynamic nations. Its profits from trade in its largest economies which seems to give an illusion of success is due mostly to their exporting goods and services within the EU but to do this, the recipient economies have to be subsidized often by the very same economies that sell these goods and services directly to them. But those recipient economies do not earn the money to pay back the loans they've used to buy these goods so essentially the EU is a mechanism for the internal transfer of wealth from its richer to its poorer economies. It is a mechanism for subsidizing failure by taxing success. In the case of Greece and Portugal, this has now caught up with them and it will for all of the other weaker economies too. As a coherent productive entity with long term stability and the potential for real growth, the EU is a failure that cannot exist much longer. We may see the collapse of its currency within a month or two, maybe even this week. And no it is not due to speculation as some would suggest. If that were the case, that would only be a very unlikely scenario with only slight transient temporary effects. It is due to the fact that the entire European economy is fundimentally structurally unsound.
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AllenT2 @187
"The so-called International Space Station was mostly funded by and built by America (even much of the Russian contribution was funded by America) and could not have been assembled with those Shuttles you are now mocking."
Correction:
"The so-called International Space Station" LOL is one to one the old "Mir" (USSR own Space Station) dumped into the ocean 20 yrs prior to its expiry date.
On the passionate insistence of Americans during Perestroyka, who fooled Gorbi in many aspects, not only this one, to the condition that he thougght it's now a new world, "new thinking", we are not on different sides off the baricades with Americans anymore and can share technology with them.
The USA have long been jealous of Mir unable to make their own, so we agreed to get rid of the old space station and build a new one, this time toggether with the Americcans, so tht they can see thhe process. Indeed at your money. We are not petty cash "mostly financed by" - you cn hhave even "totally financed by", if you wish. And built by Russians again. The difference is that this time there is an American module clipped to the new Mir, and most countries became welcome to atttach their own modules to the Russian centre-piece.
Which is what it is - a jig-saw, with the same Mir-2 the central block, where there isn't even a single sign LOL on any button in English, so all arriving cosmonauts diligently study Russian in advance (it also helps them to commnicate with the constant Russian personnel manning it, as others come and go and we stay permanently).
Now some say "Americans have added into the Mir-2 theiir own spying device" :o)))) can be, can be not, anyway what is done (foolishly) is done and we don't complain.
Notte that the Mir-1 so much in need of disposal as we were assured by the USA in flaming speeches :o)))) when dumped into the ocean - we thougght it dumped. While US ships in the area immediately changed from open comms to secret talk, rant to the place, closed it up, and, what we belive, fished it out to study and disassemble into tiny pieces to get to know how Russians did it. One would think why to bother, we let them open access to the second Mir construction. But Americans apparently decided to take no second chances, what if Gorbi won't keep his promise to let them in, and fished it out, just in case, to be sure they have it.
8 years later with pleasure we were buying 2 irrelevant but still ours, say, memorabilia, Mir pieces on e-bay! :o)))) With much interest. After the first 2 pieces were bought from private e-bay holder (American) his account disappeared from the e-bay and as much as KGB was interested to meet the guy :o)))) he vanished totally withouut any hope of finding him everafter :o)))).
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As to shuttles - a capital thing, no doubt.
Not rocket science, though :o)))
USSR built own and not one. And they went back and forward, proven that safe. The building of the mass serie was stopped though, in the same Perestroyka, due to the same reasoning - "why do we need it? we give Americans space station they'll let us use their shuttles" - LOL!
You see the defect in the Gorbi thinking was that he thought that it's not only that we stopped to be Communists but that somehow automatically he presumed you will also stop to be Capitalists.
He was still a Communist at heart, believed in sharing things for common good.
Nevermind, Mir-1 was assembled and re-plenyished without any shuttles, by rockets, as is Mir-2 now, and it doesn't show much need for US shuttles either :o))) We stil travel there by own good cheap rockets' way.
But the other countries who don't have rockets yes I agree may be travel to the Int'l space station by American shuttles and re-plentish theiir modules by your shuttles.
Though I am more inclined to think that only you do. Or mostly you, in own shuttles.
Since we indeed rocket-taxi to the space station half of the world 2-3 times per month, on schedule.
The two Russian shuttles are now like this : one a privvate owner bought it in the perestroyka mess, and tugged it by boat along the rivers, it's in Germany. What hhe'll do of it we don't know, must be children's entertainment park. Or grown-ips. Or will do a restaurant of it.
The other stayed in Moscow, is in Gorky park, simply for fun, for all to see.
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Wow a anti american Hate Fest what a suprise (Not).
Obama has alot of things he must do at Home. He can't come and placy today. Sorry!!!! You will have to play by yourselves this time.
America wants him home not in europe you guys should be happy!!!!.
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WA;
You have said you don't know what went on in the outside world and this is one more example proving that you don't.
"The USA have long been jealous of Mir unable to make their own"
Mir was space junk. Sometime during the 1970s, a large Soviet satellite powered as was typical of many Soviet satellits by a nuclear reactor fell out of orbit. (American satellites are usually powered by solar panels, fuel cells, and rechargable batteries.) We all watched it closely as nobody knew where it would land. I think it luckily fell somewhere off of Northwest Canada. Had it fallen in a heavily populated area, the radiation could have killed many thousands of people. When Mir's useful life was over as it clearly was and was in a slowly decaying orbit, the US correctly demanded that it be brought back to earth in a controlled crash re-entry in the middle of the Pacific Ocean where it would not harm or kill anyone. Do you have any idea of how inferior and primitive Soviet or Russian technology is to that of the rest of the industrialized world not even mentioning Japan or America?
http://www.space.com/news/090115-soviet-satellite-cosmos-1818.html
"The most infamous RORSAT was Cosmos 954. It made an out-of-control nose dive in 1978, raining a mess of radioactive debris over Canada."
That's the one, Cosmos 954. You can Google at it all day WA.
http://reentrynews.aero.org/Mir/sequence.html
You can also read all day about what risks were avoided by the controlled re-entry and burn up of MIR.
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Mavrelius "Western Europe in particular was very vulnerable to Soviet takeover in the late 1940s".
"Western Europe" is un-aware that this is the same song as you sang to the Japanese, that they are "in particular very vulnerable to Soviet takeover".
The amount of times your diplomats in Tokio stated that you've got sure data that "in a week", "in a month" etc. USSR will attack Japan is beyond counting.
Several times, though, the USA had to bring formal, official apologises.
When it didn't happen, LOL. And not of exactly own will, but on the protest of Russian Ministry of Foreign Affais.
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To cool_brush_work (195):
I just made a note of the matter. It doesn't matter how long or how many times you have been here, if you haven't absorbed the language and observed the culture, you miss so many nuances that it becomes impossible for you to really understand. Actually in recent studies it has been even observed that even babies do speak different languages, that language where they grow up right after birth does effect, and may effect the development of the brain themselves. Point being, you better not try to site Kaleva or plead to Sisu or something else, there is high probalitity that you go wrong, just by little, but that is enough.
Now what goes to your remark, "UK has not been an aggressor except by invitation since the mid-18th Century", let me just ask what kind of double talk is this? ... "by invitation" ... Does not compute. You are either an aggressor or not. And what goes to aggression and history, you might want to look again to the WW1 causes, the British encirclement policy of Germany was a huge attributor for the war. In case of Serbia, Russia, Belgium and France, the war was eventual and been invited by their part, especially Serbia that didn't submit to face the consequences that followed the assasination of the Austrian Archduke. Furthermore, do take a look on the subject, you can see that there are two schools of thought in here, one that puts the blame on the war solely to Germany and one that puts the blame mainly to Triple Entente.
I should also point out that putting words such as "great" in the same sentence with Kekkonen don't do any justice, there was nothing great about Kekkonen or his time. His days in the Presidential Office put the Finnish democracy back many years and made this country a place comparable to a Caribian Banana Republic. It isn't just accident that Presidential prerogatives where decreased after his term ended.
Now what goes to past and past generations, the thing is that they are passe, they always will be. The obligation of younger generations is always to reform and think again on what, why and how we are doing things. Locking to the ideas and framewors of the past generations would be intellectual cowardice as the world that was has long gone away and the world and the situation that we face is new thus needing new ideas, new solutions and new frameworks. That doesn't mean that there isn't respect for the older generations and their work, however, their work has been done, they can rest, it is now the responsiblity of the current generations to do decisions that they deem right.
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WA, the only reason the USSR entered WWII in the Pacific during the last few days of the war was to sieze as much Japanese land as it could. It still holds 4 islands that has been a cause of great friction between Russia and Japan ever since. The US military presence in the Pacific is the only reason there hasn't been more wars there. The USSR was a militarily aggressive expansionist empire that wanted to gobble up the entire world subjecting it to its insane failed Communist theology under the rule of Moscow. Even Communist China felt threatened by it as I pointed out in a previous posting.
The US handled the surrender and rebuilding of Japan with remarkable skill. General MacArthur who saw to the transition during about a five year period came to be revered almost as a god by the Japanese, almost as admired by them as their own Emperor was. The US and Japan have been very close allies ever since. Japan only has a defensive force and could not possibly defend itself against Soviet or Russian aggression just as Taiwan could not defend itself from China. Were the US to leave the Pacific theater, Japan would probably be forced to remilitarize itself. It has enough plutonium and enough technological skills to quickly become one of the largest nuclear powers in the world along with the US and Russia. How would that prospect strike you? How do you think China, Korea, and other nations in Southeast Asia who vividly recall the brutality of the Japanese imperial empire would feel? IMO, if Japan and China want the US to maintain its military presence in East Asia, they should help pay for it. If not, the US should exit and leave them to their fate. If they want America to remain a policeman or referee there, they should bear at least some of the cost.
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This discussion is out of hand.
one big orgy of insults.
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Mavrelius, that's exactly what the USA said back then, "MIR" is dangerous because what if it falls onto someone like some of your sputniks did?
For the sake of the safety worldwide you have to put it down :o)))) - and put back exactly the same but this time built together with us.
:o))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
oj what if your shuttle falls onto someone? or any of your own sputniks? or the same Mir-2 station?
Why don't we ground it all for the safety worldwide.
Don't quote me American quotes. Or care to add some why the whole nuclear USSR fleet was commanded out of world ocean and cut into needles on coming home - 100 vessels in one go, at the same time as Mir.
They all became very un-safe at once - in the US opinion.
:o))))))))))))))))))
The times of your pulling our leg are gone. Live with it. There aren't clinical idiots on this side anymore. Idiots - yes, but not in the want of immediate hospitalisation.
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I am also thinking now :o)))) that your shuttles are un-safe and should be grounded. So many casualties, aj aj.
Don't remember Russia losing a single passenger in our simple rockets in ? twice a month or 3 times, as the orbit whatever allows, multipled by 12, multiplied by 20 years. No wonder we are the transport company of the choice of the world. Voted for, how to say, by fact on the ground. In the space o:))))
Anyway you can continue to play with your kid's toys :o))) we are not same jealous or pathetic as you were in 1990-s, (and seems to me still are). Say, if India wants and finance like the fifth generation plane - we will pull own shuttles back on stage. Which are not in need of a single in-put of yours :o))))
Though, I heard, that we might scratch up some finance ourselves, and won't bother with out-dated machinery, but are into a new design.
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J_R
Re #202
I don't have to be a Finn to have an understanding or opinion on Finland anymore than for you to be British to share yours on UK History.
What I do have and you seem to lack is the grace to know Humanity comes in all shapes and forms and the old adage, 'there but for the grace of God, go I' is equally applicable to everyone of us.
Sometimes when I read some of your views on your Finnish forefathers attitudes and behaviours I am at a loss to explain the breathtaking naivety: I also wonder if you voice such ideas in public what and how older 'generations' may react - - I suspect, out of politeness and experience they listen quietly or walk away.
That you would conceive of Finland led by Presient Kekkonen as a 'banana republic' reveals a singular lack of appreciation and judgement of your own Nation's political 'nuances' on a par with your earlier astonishing comment on another topic, that a 'nuclear war is winnable.'
Truly, I just am at a loss as to how to defend your own Nation's History to you!
Though well used to your everything is 'black or white' style of presentation it is incredible you appear unable to grasp the immense political-strategic-economic constraints facing Finland's leadership post-Continuation War/WW2.
The 'younger generations' "..obligations.." you so casually write of are of course by definition tomorrow's 'passe' policies: That Finland will be making some good and some bad decisions as to its future those future generations will come to weigh in the balance of effects-results is the nature of the World.
As an old man some of those things you hold most dear now as vital to your country's progression will be held in the same condescension and near contempt as you now display towards those who went before you.
I hope for Finland's sake and my children (dual Brit-Finn Nationality) the 'current generations' making the Nation's policies are good deal more imaginative and sympathetic to the lives of those around them than much of your comment displays.
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And don't Japan me either. The Kurils I am discussing with Jan Keeskop in another thread. You can join there if you wish.
Since you are so friendly here, with "Soviet Empire as evil as Nazi empire" I will allow myself a short piece of lyrics as well (We, Russians, are not agressors :o), you've started).
You don't feel uncomfortable in the Okinawa? Some shadows, at nights, don't bother your soldiers there, no?
It must be awful pleasant to keep a military base on bones, of 300,000 (three hundred thousand) Japanese civillians there. One would think it's not so big a place that you can avoid the view of the mass graves.
That's the Japs who committed suicide when their real long term strategic partner, full of best intentions as ever, grabatised Okinawa for its military base. The Japanese parliament conducted approximately a thousand sessions devoted to it ever after, in much pain-staking troubles with "to consider this, and to consider that, but on the other hand" - just recently - took them some time :o))) arrived to the conclusion that it's not American fault. You are innocent as white fluffy sheep.
It's simply silly Japanese population made use of army hand grenades stock, and were encouraged to do so by still existing somehow post war somewhere local authourities, that it is a correct things to do, to commit suicide, when your best friend settles in your land.
They simply didn't grasp the idea back then yet that Americans are Japan's best friends.
Now, I have difficulty remembering a single suicide about the fact of our "Evil Empire" installing a military base in Europe. Not even in Germany, nowhere the locals were noticed to have so bad expectations of Russians.
Though one would think Germans are not less organised than the Japanese, and same likely to follow their authorities' "recommendation".
Don't remember us having to put out of the loop a single person, about to hang himself up on the fact of our presence.
Though I think if it were so - we would do something, to prevent.
We have less means in int'l PR to hide such a fact, if it were to happen post war, to put it honestly - simply - had no means of voice post-war.
So we'd bother to see that the event itself didn't take place.
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Hello CBS,thanks for your reply. You're right, I was pretty general in a lazy Sunday morning sort of way.
My comments may have a degree of generality about them but that was the purpose. It is acceptable to look at trends in Society, of which grinding to a halt in traffic jams is one of them; it is acceptable to observe that systems of Law and Justice are being overwhelmed by criminality and that increasing the numbers of prisons and prisoners is not the solution. Perhaps the moral and financial corruption which I think is at the heart of both societies will ease, perhaps it won't, either way it is acceptable to be concerned about it.
The People will always be the People and they will work from dawn til dusk and the Land will always be the Land offering it's nourishment, as long as we care for it too! What concerns me is that people indeed Society is being manipulated by Government and Commercial concerns against which there seems to be little defence. This manipulation wouldn't be possible without the ability to analyse and control which is provided by modern technology and coupled with overwhelming force any protest or revolution is impossible. Therefore we just have to go along with it and people, when they feel themselves sucked into some hopeless spiral of debt, manipulation and control will tend to lose their humanity and the naturally sympathetic, gregarious glue which holds us together will come unstuck in a devil take the hindmost scenario, maybe we'll even be melted down for glue ourselves.
Hey Homer, I think you're right, don't come on holiday to Europe, you wouldn't like it, it's awful.
Sign in a French ascenseur(elevator); "Pour 8 Personnes" and underneath was written "Or 3 Americans".
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and careful, MA, with "the only reason the USSR entered the war in the Pacific in the last days of war" " with the only aim to grab as much Japannese land as possible".
The only reason we entered was Yalta-Portsmouth, where the allies signed we have 1/2 of Europe and Kurils if USSR fights Japanese in China by old good way, on the ground.
Which USA iself was un-willing to do, as haven't had the bomb ready, and anyway knew it'll be only 2, and yet un-tried, and even iff the nuclear will work - it's not enough to impress Japanese in China.
Which you preferred to entirely forget once you got what you wanted - USSR declaring war on Japan, in violation of our peace treaty with them, which would expire only in 6 months' time.
And once USSSR liberated half of China, occupied by Japan since 1931. By good old ground traditional war.
To say nothing we would never allow you to drop your bomb onto China, too close to us. That is, if you theoretically had more than 2 bombs, in 1945, which you didn't - you could have of course, in spite of what Stalin would think about it - and would get a kick back in Europe by conventional Red Army means of quite impressive standard.
And Churchill and Eisenhower both formally agreed in the meeting, and it is well documented, that if USSR wishes to go further to Western Europe in May 1945 - they don't have forces combbined to stop us.
So you have figured out it's better not to annoy us, with nonn-existent LOL nuclear bombs for Japan in China, but have China liberated by old conventional ways, and by Red Army hands. Saving forgot, I think Eisenhower or was it still Roosevelt, anyway not them, but someone of your commanders put your president a report that were Americans to liberate China on land, the estimated loss is 2,5 million Americans in China.
With your total WW2 loss of 300,000 approx. - that was the number deemed un-acceptable.
And if you care to mention McArthur, care to mention his title as well - Commander of American Occupational Forces in Japan.
For I really find it annoying, in Western parlance the only "occupational" forces post 1945 were somehow exclusively USSR.
Others simply were in Germany and in Japan "from best intentions".
And the quote of McArthur, re Japan, is also worthy remembeing at this point, re your intentions. Who wrote that "From now on the Pacific has become the Anglo-Saxon lake."
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To butt in the what started WW1, Blackadder goes Forth has the answer.
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WA;
Any real technological development in the USSR was largely a result of Soviet spies stealing it from the West, mostly the US. By the end about one million Soviets reportedly worked on "western intelligence." Vast mountains of newspapers, magazines, technical papers, blueprints, stolen classified materials, open public publications. The rare exceptions were what was given by captured German Rocket scientists and a few innovative Soviet plane designers. The rest was stolen. In the 1980s a Soviet pilot defected flying his Foxbat (I think Mig 29) to Japan. Americans could hardly wait to get a look at it. What they found not only surprised them, I think they were genuinely disappointed. What was suspected of being a super fighter turned out to be little more than a giant gas tank and an engine.
You said you didn't know what was going on in the world during the Soviet era. Your government deliberately kept anything you saw, read, or heard under their tight control. They were especially watchful of jamming Western radio broadcasts like VOA and radio Liberty. You were kept in the dark. Your evil empire wanted to control every facet of every human life on this earth just the way the EUSSR wants to control every life in Europe. Your president Yeltsin visiting a typical Washington DC supermarket around 1990 said if the Soviet public knew about this they would be in open revolt. In the era of the internet, like all despotic governments the reality of the rest of the world could hardly be kept out anymore. The USSR became irrelavent except as a military threat.
At least America didn't launch nuclear reactors into orbit. How would you feel if an American nuclear reactor fell from space and crash landed near your house? Small satellites like Sputnik and Pioneer burn up in the atmosphere before they crash on earth and when they do, they don't shower the people under them with radioactive debris. The space shuttle which the USSR stole and copied (ever notice how suspiciously similar they look) is no more dangerous to people on the ground than any ordinary civilian aircraft crashing would be. We don't know how many cosmonauts died in the Soviet space program. We know 3 Americans died in an accident in 1967. It was well documented and held up the Apollo moon mission for over a year. We know the USSR's last hope of getting men to the moon before the US did ended with the explosion of a Boron rocket shortly before the first successful American moon mission but we don't know how many cosmonauts died in it. The Soviet program was kept entirely secret and only its successes were reported, not its failures.
So you think the USSR was a peaceful non aggressive nation that was simply invited into other countries. Tell it to the Hungarians who still remember 1956. Tell it to the Czechs who still remember 1968. And tell it to the Poles whose Communist leader imposed Marshall law in the face of strikes by Polish shipyard workers in Gdansk led by Lech Walessa because they were afraid if they didn't, Russian tanks would roll into Poland just the way they rolled into Budapest and Prague. Why do you think Russia is called the prisonhouse of nations? Why do you think all of the USSR's former satellites and the Baltic states want to join NATO? They never want to be under the yoke of Russian occupation again. Neither do those Ukranians who are not the descendants of Russian Soviet colonists.
Yes the US occupied Japan after winning the War just the way it occupied Germany. But that occupation ended in about 5 years after civilian rule which was not a threat to anyone else was instituted. The USSR occupied Eastern Europe for over 40 years until it went bankrupt and it was thrown out. And in places like Romania, the Soviet puppet and his wife were executed by the angry mobs who suffered under Soviet occupation.
Your country was so primitive that it took a foreign company like Fiat just to teach them how to build such a simple crude car. Simple and crude by Western standards anyway, a marvel by Soviet standards.
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Gheryando wrote:
"This discussion is out of hand.
one big orgy of insults."
Yeah. Nationalism turns otherwise agreeable folks into raving lunatics. Much like religion, in that respect.
Still, people choose to go in for it. As much as I would like to think otherwise, and that evil people in positions of power force nice common folk to believe in nationalism and religion, I can't escape the evidence which suggests to me that ordinary people choose their preferred form of mass delusion.
I suppose it is a form of release of some kind. It allows folks to belong to a large tribe when they feel lonely, and to hate like crazy when they feel put upon and vulnerable.
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WebAlice (#210), Marcus' views are not typical of Americans, at least of the well-educated ones. We know very well that US forces "occupied" Japan under General MacArthur (note spelling). MacArthur said (and did) a lot of dumb things. His statements should not be held against the United States, as many Americans even at the time thought he was something of a "loose cannon."
The United States had only two atomic bombs in August, 1945, but the means to make more within weeks and months. We are both fortunate that the situation after the defeat of Japan never developed to the point where they might have been used, because there were certainly some people willing (or even eager) to use them.
And while we are on the subject, most Americans do not understand that it was the declaration of war on Japan by the Soviet Union, two days after the bombing of Hiroshima, which was the straw that broke the will of Japan (except for the most hard-core militants) and led directly to the end of the war. The bombing of Nagasaki (the next day) was superfluous, in my opinion (based on a Japanese history of the end of the war The Longest Day (published by Kodansha).
Whatever interpretation people may make of events (about which we will argue forever), we can all be thankful that we got through the cold war without any more atomic weapons being used.
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The analysis of the missile interceptors by Jukka Rohila in #189 is correct.
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Adelechanel
re #209
The problem with the first part of your critique of USA & indirectly the UK is that the prisons are also full in what we are given to believe are the bustling, burgeoning new giants of the World - Brazil, India, China, South Africa - - furthermore, having been to all of them I can assure you the traffic chaos of Beijing, Rio, Mumbai etc. is no different from the ancient 24hr cities. The same incidentally is true in my experience of Paris, Berlin, any City in the Netherlands at any time from dawn to dusk, as well as Lagos, Karachi, Hong Kong etc.
As for the 'moral and financial corruption' you presume is at the heart of USA-UK it makes me wonder how it is the Births & Death Rates, general Health & Welfare standards, effective Police & Judiciary, democratic participation (at National level), the UNO 'Freedoms' etc. are in such display and practise in these wicked 'west' societies?
I am in tentative agreement that People are being exploited via Government & Commerce: That is the Capitalist system and I am not one who says it must remain like that in order for the Public to thrive. This is a criticism that can be levelled at almost any Nation and in particular the emerging ones whose concern for/with the general public's welfare is surely far more questionable than most of Europe, North America and Australasia.
My implacable opposition to the 'big-Government/big-Business' EU is based around its obvious anti-democratic and overtly capitalist-exploitation policies towards its Citizens.
However, we are more than a little short of alternatives to the Free-Market Capitalism developed by USA-UK-Europe in the last 300 years: At the present time it seems China, Brazil and the rest are merely aping the avaricious skills of the original 'entrepreneurial-laissez faire' nations.
Certainly this seems to be the case if we take Global Warming as the most evident issue in need of a different and more subtle approach.
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Yes we kind of guessed that Homer Simpson III was an unreconstructed, uncritical and rather unpleasant USA-ite.
Bit of bedtime watching for you here Homer,or maybe you can only get tunnel vision on your screen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfuoenn7138
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191 and 213.
Couple of good posts there democracy threat
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G;
Are you nuts? It was seeing 200,000 people and two cities go up in 8 mile high columns of smoke and fire with the prospect of the rest of Japan going up the same way that forced Japan to surrender. Even so, there were some of the most extreme fanatics in the military who wanted to fight until the last Japanese was dead. There's an interesting story about how they tried to intercept the phonograph record the Emperor made announcing the surrender (the first time his people ever heard his voice) from reaching the broadcast station. You can google it, there are many articles and even books documenting it.
The atom bomb made it more palatable for Japan to surrender in the face of a new and overwhelmingly superior weapon they couldn't survive as a nation any other way. Had it not been for the atom bombs, they might have fought on for another year or more. Operation Olympic Coronet, the invaion of the Japanese main islands slated for spring of 1946 was expected to result in up to a million American casualties and probably many more Japanese. Not only did the dropping of the atom bombs end the war quickly and save all those American lives, they probably saved many Japanese lives as well that would otherwise have been lost in the invasion. They also demonstrated to any would be adversaries such as the USSR that the US would not hesitate to use such weapons in a future war. Whatever doubt might have been hoped for at a later date were dashed immediately. The USSR knew that when the US went to war, it meant business. At least it did in 1945.
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RE #191 and 213
'Good' and interesting comments.
Especially the slightly hidden unrealistic perspectives:
1) that if the USA-NATO-UK-Israeli-Australasian Armed Forces all returned to barracks tomorrow the 'west' would be a much safer place because actually no one out there (i.e. the benign World at large suffering under the tyranny of the above) means any harm at all to the 'west'.
And,
2) that the 'big-Business' of Arms Manufacturing is a near exclusive of the 'west' capitalists who use any means to make a profit and really if the 'west' all just stopped ordering and selling weapons tomorrow actually no one out there (i.e. the benign World at large suffering under the onslaught of the above) would do any harm at all to the 'west'.
NB. I use 'west' as a terminology for Peoples and Nations as far apart as USA, UK, France, Russia, China, South Africa, Brazil, India, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Vietnam, Australia... that are all involved in various aggressions and use of weapons at this time...
Oh wait! That's the World, isn't it? Oh well, I suppose I mean to say the 'World' is a dodgy place and 'tomorrow' is a very poor gamble if there is nothing to back-up your fine words.
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Correction to my post #214: The title (in English) of the Japanese history of the ending days of the war is Japan's Longest Day by The Pacific War Research Society (Kodansha International Ltd. 1968).
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Ma. vrelius.
1. You mix up being not informed and being not interested, or, how to say, we don't think that the whole world is our business.
What has relation to Russia's past and present, be it USSR times or the Hungary or Kurils or Caucasus - this eh, "larger empire" people are very well informed about. Not only Russians but Latvians Georgians take whoever. And we still keep reading the pulse of each other, just in case.
In Perestroyka I heard many interesting things but more the details of them, nothing strategically new that I wouldn't know anyway at home.
So it is strange you try to inform me of Khruschev boot and Prague spring. USSR rest assured knew of it not later by a minute than the West did :o))) Formal media interpretatuion had nothing to do with it, people here rely on other sources. If you ever heard the expression "some words for kitchens others for streets". If you question the speed of our "sarafan radio" (that girl's traditional peasant attire, a dress with two straps on top, and a shirt under), or the accuracy of it - I mean, what can I do. You are simply another culture person things don't exist for you until written on paper. While Russians are quite able to process news in the word of the mouth format, songs (our unique means of comms with each other), Aesop tongue, samizdat, and what not.
Vysotsky, after all, got known across USSR without a single line published officially and a single record issued officially. To the degree that 350 million people knew his 900 songs by heart. Without a single official appearance or sign of recognition of his very existence.
Same trick was repeated many times over, take Akhmatova, Tsvetaeva, Solzhenitsyn, Brodsky, Pasternak, Vertinsky, Gumilev-father and Gumilev-son, Mandelshtam, Galich and who not.
So, while you were busy reading your newspapers, we were busy typing and copying our samizdat, re-recording cassetes from each other, and , basically, how to say, this country has (dangerous:o) skills to survive without a word of formal media entirely. No one will even notice :o))))
Still, I won't know now who is Mugabe that all worried about so much recently and what had he done. And where is he either. No one ever mentioned it has any relation to Russia and therefore is not our speciality. We've got here a good half of the world to worry about ourselves :o))) look at the map. Plus immediate neighbours. One can't embrace unibraceable. In the same manner we have skipped entirely the whole US and all your presidents up to the first meaningful for us, Roosevelt. In Russian understanding, before Roosevelt, the USA as good as not existed. :o))))))
On the "USSR didn't invent anything stole all" I don't even feel energised to quarrel with you, so pathetic a claim.
And overall, how to say. I know what stands behind your automated need to label USSR as black and evil (and unable to come up with anything useful, in particular). Our "evilness" is the only justification for the American spread in the world, "protecting all from USSR". What would you do, on what would you live, if not "evil USSR". That's your oil and gas of the budget. A purely technical need to black-mail Russsia, one of the corner-stones of America's survival :o)))))
I can't get ignited by so technical, explained and how to say, necessary for you a hate. A good, proper hate is something less explicit and ? more inexplicable by nature. Pity you, what to say. Will bark back, still, because you are anyway spoiled enough, but without putting much heart in it. Mummy Russia understands.
Overall, MA, get prepared for the future. And hope it doesn't happen during your time. Because Russia has heard about herself all things already, trains of paper and tons of ink were spent to discuss our defects ww of all historical periods, and there is hardly anything new and exciting to be surfacing anymore. All "USSR evils" are known, discussed, chewed on, conferences sat, books are publsihed and translated into all languages who ever got interested, careers made and degrees obtained on the subject.
While the USA still hears of itself carefully dosed news through tightly squeesed leaks. Just try to close a military base or two, in any of your 150 world countries, and you'll see the difference of what a country media thinks of you while you are there and what it thinks of you after you are gone.
When media and writers will feel they are complacent with their governments in their views. Try to leave Japan, LOL - and hear what they'll say about you after. You won't recognise yourself.
All this fun is still ahead for the Americans and I don't envy you. Especially given how well you are able to stand the negative news on yourself - simply, spoiled, by half a century of free ride.
Polesis connected with Russia directly and in-directly
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Will still slip a word for "Buran" maker. For he is still alive, and I am afraid :o)))) wouldn't agree LOL that he "stole" his shuttle from Americans. That they look alike, as you say, - it's I think aerodymamics' laws, some shapes are better than others. Anyway don't even know how yours looks like, never worried.
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WA;
"Just try to close a military base or two, in any of your 150 world countries, and you'll see the difference of what a country media thinks of you while you are there and what it thinks of you after you are gone."
We already know what they will say: "Yankee come back! And bring your American Express Card with you. Don't leave home without it."
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Maudib, thanks so much, ciao bella:)
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As to "seeing 200,000 people go up in flames and smoke" - I am afraid someone forgot to equip China with TV sets in the summer 1945.
The Japanese clan that settled in China was not impressed. And they acted independently from the Emperor and for 10 years already, if wishing anything - it's that the Emperor is dead and ASAP, LOL.
China was invaded by Japanese debunkers, did you forget? Its own army, and far bigger than the Japan Japan held.
Emperor's word was for them an empty sound, alas. They didn't even think to surrender after Japan mainland did.
GH1618, noted spelling of MacArthur. Still, I think what he said in 1956 in the rest of his letter, describing the line that America seeks to protect, still holds water in your int'l politics. I'll fish it out and you'll see for yourself, hard for me to tell from outside.
The USSR mind it not only "declared" that helped to convince, but in 30 seconds after declaration LOL already crossed into China by three large
wedges from 3 directions, as the prev. 3 months we were building say, metal fists on teh border with China, thousands of trains re-delivvering Red Army from eastern Europe to across the whole Europe and Russia and Kazakhstan and Siberia to the border with China, condensed in 3 locations.
I absolutely insist on all understanding it, because people in Europe still somehow think the Red Army that occupied them and the one that liberated them was one and the same people. No. The people who took Berlin and places - were acting army - disposed of from Europe immediately - and sent over to fight Japan on China.
What were invading forces - were fat KGB rats, fit for the garrison sitting, not for fighting.
And Red Army fought in China - in 2 weeks covered and occupied 1/3 of the country, and in 3 weeks - nearly one half. That was no less intense drive as the rush to berlin. Well, in smaller firepower, no need to, tanks.
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WA;
I have this book called "How it Was Really the Russians Who Invented Jazz and Other Betime Fairy Tales."
Do you know that before the first MacDonalds could open in Russia, the Americans had to teach Russians how to grow potatoes? And I think the root stock was brought in from Holland.
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WA;
"that he "stole" his shuttle from Americans. That they look alike, as you say, - it's I think aerodymamics' laws, some shapes are better than others. Anyway don't even know how yours looks like"
"Ma. vrelius.
1. You mix up being not informed and being not interested, or, how to say, we don't think that the whole world is our business."
You've never seen a photograph of the American space shuttle that's been flying for nearly thirty years, don't know that yours looks almost exactly like it but you expect me to believe you are "informed." And you also expect me to take anything you say seriously I suppose. We have a saying here...."don't hold your breath waiting."
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Anyway, MA, to sweeten the pill :o)
("sweeten" looks somehow odd to me, but I don't know how to improve the spelling :o)))
Russia worries for you. Even forgetting the importance of Ukraine's elections! :o)))) Saw this at the yesterday federation jokes of the day site:
"I have thought about it, and thought, and I think I know now a practical way for the USA to solve their military-poltical problems in the Middle East.
Someone should arrange for them a war between Iraq and Afghanistan in the Iran's territory. Then they could return home."
:o)))))))
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Need to check up Ukrainian sites. I think Janek is winning, but not by so impressive amounts as exit polls were stating throughout the day. At 3pm he was 20% higher than Tigriulja (Tiger Julia), by 4pm he had 15% difference, by 5pm Janek was only 10-12 per cent above (again, by exit polls) - but then, in the evening all capital, Kiev, was still to vote, because as all spoiled city-dwellers they wouldn't run to vote early in the day. And Kiev is Julia's orange stronghold.
Overall analysis say 69 per cent of Ukrainians went to vote, a portrait of Julia's admirer and Janek's admirere is no different to each other, same "higher education", "school only", women age band this, men age band that, one to one. By their sociological researches.
One would think same people :o))))
Except that Julia Timoshenko has more admirers in rural Ukraine and Janek - among city dwellers.
And of course the geography - East of Ukraine voted 92% for Janukovich, all Russia, clear, Catholicc Lvov/Lviv - 72% for Timoshenko.
3 per cent Ukrainians so far voted "Against them both!" :o)))) line.
Though honestly it's not Russia versus Ukraine LOL in this Janukovich-Timoshenko battle of titans, the only Ukrainian there is Joushenko. Was Joushenko.
Janukovich is Belorussian.
Julia Timoshenko is Armenian.
So both these "flaming Ukrainians" learned Ukrainian as a necessity for political career.
:o)
An ad: Go vote on Sunday and you will get yourself FOC an absolutely new president!
:o)))
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Mavrelius, if you can't sleep tonight unless I see a photo of an American shuttle I will look in wiki. What for is beyond me, nothing of practical value to us has ever been, and of course I saw it on TV news sometimes, how it lands, something big white quickly but never worried about its outlines.
My father was in hydrodynamics, and grandad in both, worked with Tupolev I've spent my childhood in the places where they try shapes in aerodynamic tubes and in the water basins, 5 km long, quickly wooshing a ship model through, so that data readers transmit info. One such basin is still currently 2 km away from me, in the old father's place.
Some shapes are better than others. :o)))) That's all I can say.
And some shapes are so much better than others, that they were constantly copied from fathers' subs. :o))))))
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WA;
You really do live in Wonderland. Look around, you might find that GH1618 is in there with you along with a lot of others who post here.
So you agree with GH's theory that it wasn't the two atom bombs that convinced Japan to surrender, it was the news that big bad Russia had invaded China. This is what really ended the war...if you can bear to watch its sobering horror. The last one is BBC's explanation of the end of the war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRF2BbSRDmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FtssfiZVxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCAtBoYbEIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzWGerKOBFk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P75GYaYl5w0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncq_Wye43TM
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WA;
"Mavrelius, if you can't sleep tonight unless I see a photo of an American shuttle I will look in wiki."
Why bother? If you've seen yours, you've already seen ours.
"Need to check up Ukrainian sites. I think Janek is winning, but not by so impressive amounts as exit polls were stating throughout the day."
"You mix up being not informed and being not interested, or, how to say, we don't think that the whole world is our business."
And you still expect me to believe you.
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MAvrelius, don't be so ? jumpy to conclusions. Surely the two nuclear bombs made Japan to surrender. Not the Japan in China though.
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WA;
Right now President Obama is watchng the Superbowl like about 200 million+ other Americans including me. The moderators may have one eye on it also. At the moment late in the second quarter the Saints are down 3 to 10 against the Colts. I'm sure that this is far more important news to him now than the results in Ukraine. You keep an eye on that one for us, we can worry about that tomorrow.
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WA;
The tide of battle has turned early in the third quarter. Saints are up 13-10. Ukraine? Who cares. Nobody here would care even if it was Canada or Mexico...unless they were Canadian or Mexican or had business in one of them. Canada is the red country on top, Mexico the orange one below...I think :-)
The President is not allowed to play favorites....in the Superbowl that is. In countries it's allowed. If he cares who wins the Superbowl, he's not allowed to say.
Here's an explanation of the difference between to great American games football and baseball;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om_yq4L3M_I
Ooops, the fortunes of battle have turned again. The Colts are up 17 to 13. One neat thing about football is that the last ten minutes of play takes about an hour and a half :-)
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WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
"I am also thinking now :o)))) that your shuttles are un-safe and should be grounded. So many casualties, aj aj.
Don't remember Russia losing a single passenger in our simple rockets in ? twice a month or 3 times, as the orbit whatever allows, multipled by 12, multiplied by 20 years. No wonder we are the transport company of the choice of the world. Voted for, how to say, by fact on the ground. In the space o:))))"
The Shuttle is essentially a short wide bodied airliner that is designed to carry cargo into space and to land like an airplane while being reused over and over again. For someone to compare the Shuttle to the simplistic Russian rockets is a joke and shows how much out of their element they are.
Russia's space program has also had fatalities, and likely quite a bit more than America when you include ground fatalities. Under the Soviet Union who knows what they hid from the West.
"Anyway you can continue to play with your kid's toys :o))) we are not same jealous or pathetic as you were in 1990-s, (and seems to me still are)."
Jealous of what? America, and the West, has always had more overall advanced technology than the Soviet Union or Russia.
"Say, if India wants and finance like the fifth generation plane - we will pull own shuttles back on stage. Which are not in need of a single in-put of yours :o))))"
Is this one of your examples of where America should be jealous? :)
"Though, I heard, that we might scratch up some finance ourselves, and won't bother with out-dated machinery, but are into a new design."
If I were you I'd be much more concerned about attaining freedom and democracy in your country.
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Jukka Rohila wrote:
"You are not a Finnish, you are not even a citizen of the Finnish state, you don't know nor understand this nation and the country, so stop pretending to know it. You are merely just a guest here."
That doesn't seem to stop so many so-called Europeans from thinking they know everything about America. They'll even say that they know more about America than even Americans do. :)
It's very amusing but sad and embarrassing at the same time.
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cool_brush_work wrote:
"Truly, I just am at a loss as to how to defend your own Nation's History to you!"
And you feel as someone who is not from Finland that it is your place to be telling someone that is how they should feel about their own country and history?
Where does such arrogance and disrespect come from that you feel it is your place to do that?
Though well used to your everything is 'black or white' style of presentation it is incredible you appear unable to grasp the immense political-strategic-economic constraints facing Finland's leadership post-Continuation War/WW2.
The 'younger generations' "..obligations.." you so casually write of are of course by definition tomorrow's 'passe' policies: That Finland will be making some good and some bad decisions as to its future those future generations will come to weigh in the balance of effects-results is the nature of the World.
As an old man some of those things you hold most dear now as vital to your country's progression will be held in the same condescension and near contempt as you now display towards those who went before you.
I hope for Finland's sake and my children (dual Brit-Finn Nationality) the 'current generations' making the Nation's policies are good deal more imaginative and sympathetic to the lives of those around them than much of your comment displays.
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Wishing you success in that mysterious superbowl (hope it's not kerling :o))))... not "bowling"....? anyway.
You are right, I spent the time reading the Russian Buran maker Gleb Lozino-Lozinsky data, his interviews, Q and A-s he answered, and, how to say, he died shame on me I didn't know. But at least I knew he existed :o)) which can't be said of many Russians.
Was a very modest man, living very modestly, I'd say without any thing :o))) how his family only stood him :o))))
They complained he even got the TV one of the latest in Russia as he thought it's fun :o))) to pour distilled water into some fat lense instead of the screen it was , in their TV post war. So he was boiling that water on a kerosine something and leaving pools on the room floor. They only had 1 room, which he also decided to share with another companion who lost house in war, let his family in as well, so the description is "3 beds in a row and no space for anything else - and then 3 beds of his co-constructor's family. And then - a carton wall, by which he shielded off cold air from the outer wall of the apartment! as it "did not have heating" ! so they decided to have a screen btw the window and the outer wall and the rest of the part of their combined room! "
Then that he was very? sharp and sharp, in comms with disagreeing folks and bosses, which didn't provide for him many eh? supporters in career life.
Anyway he designed seems like most Russian Migs, then something flying called MAKS, then something flying called Spiral (his darling baby) (which it seems we plan to finally make now, LOL, some 40 years later :o)))) and then when he was busy with Spiral ( avery quickie small and? able to turn around quick in space a ? something, not awkward Burans-Shuttles, but like a bee or a wasp :o)))) seems to me babe
he was appointed Buran project constructor which he disliked and said he doesn't want it :o)))) You are right, he straight says in his interview "they told me to abandon Spiral and make a copy of US shuttle, because US shuttle flew and returned back, proven in reality, and your Spiral is still in trials, and we are annoyed US has a shuttle and want result quick". He says he reasoned he doesn't like it, and doesn't like to copy anything, but was made to.
Still, he introduced into Buran his Spiral coating idea which seemed to be nicer fit and less subject to chipping off, and stands higher temps, and changed the wings and the tail wing a bit to his liking, and the main difference is the totally different engine system from Shuttle - which MA you can see with un-armed eye if you look at the "tail side" :o))) of both together.
Gleb Lozino-Lozinsky's one takes off differently, other things are used for take-off entirely and for cruising as well.
2 other differences is detachable capsule for cosmonavts that flies off away when the take off seems to go odd, so that they can save themselves and pirouette down.
The main diff, apart from engines, though is Buran is fully automated, while for landing the last stage he says Americans use manual ruling of it. ?
He says he hated all the commission in trial in 1988, because "they collected in the flight management room like vampires, and I swear we shuffling papers which I glanced - already contain explanations why my Buran didn't make it back! One chap had a news release ready "because of bad weeather in the landing spot", as there was indeed an un-licky hurricane or strong woind, 30 metres a second, the other one blamed rain, and only I alone sat there and knew, by gut feelingg, that my Buran will make it.
(he said he always in technical problems relied onto gut feeling)
So he was the only one, he says :o)))) seemingly happy around in the control room ("all the rest - hawks! typical hawks! waiting for my failure":o))) when the fully automated flight, from take-off to landing and stop took place ONE SECOND LATER than the programme, and ONE METRE AND A HALF away from the spot it should stop at.
The other memoir of his first Buran show is he says all lost nerve when , approaching land, Buran made an interesting turn around :o))) changed direction of flight by 90%, and that's when all thought that's it. And most of all - MIG pilots, accompanying the last stage of Buran approaching earth :o))))) when Buran began to "behave odd" :o))))
But Lozino-Lozinsky says he first also startled, and then figured out it's OK, his Buran saw it's approaching ground at too high speed, and the programme advised it to make an additional loop in the air, to kill down the speed, to be able to land where programme says.
Enchanting man, very un-usual. His name was kept secret here behind shield names of constructors, until 2005-2006 I think.
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GH1618 wrote:
"The analysis of the missile interceptors by Jukka Rohila in #189 is correct."
You can imagine our relief.
CBW, I suppose that the military industrial complex is worth noting and understanding in its own right, but I'm growing skeptical about whether it is something that can be challenged directly.
The reason I'm determined to face the appalling fact that people choose their pet delusions without a controlling evil force is because I suspect the solution to the problem of the phenomena we call the military industrial complex is rooted deep in the human psyche. I would argue the manufacture and sale of military hardware is driven by the inflated fears of the mob, and that whilst the mob are given towards exciting sensations of pride and fear, there shall always be capitalists ready and willing to profit upon these emotions, by offering false security in the form of weapons.
Right now the frightened warriors on the blog will squeal with indignation and insist that if the good guys had not done the glorious thing in times past, Hitler and Stalin would have murdered every baby on earth. That is, if the Japanese hadn't got there first. So taken all around, the babies would have been killed three times over, and we can only imagine the devastation that would have caused to the market. Hence we must be grateful for our military heros and thank them at every opportunity for their blessing of our freedom.
But leaving aside the emotional hyperbole and the vaguely weird idea that pacifists owe their freedom to soldiers when pacifists are now living in debt servitude to bankers, there remains the ugly fact that the military is widely supported by most communities. And hence, so is the industry that supports them.
And so it would seem to me that the only way to reduce the military industrial complex is to reduce the human tendency to fear and to hate, as means of escaping the sensations of vulnerability and weakness.
This is where I would argue that the political process each individual experiences within their society is crucially important. Not as a practical means to any given material end, but rather as therapy for the ultimately destructive sensation of helplessness.
I am repeatedly struck on these pages by widespread despair from all sides when Europe's political puppet masters do something. No matter what is done, it offends some people. And the emotion most often voiced is one of helplessness and despair, and indignation that there has been no participation in the political process.
The despair at the democracy deficit in Europe and the anger at the way referenda have been stage managed, adopted when useful and dismissed when not useful to the elites, seems to me an articulated longing for participation in the political process which determines each individuals future.
It makes sense to me that people can allay their sense of helplessness and vulnerability when they participate in a political process. I mean, even if they make the wrong decisions. The mere fact of doing something, of taking part in what might be a solution, should logically attenuate feelings of helplessness.
Now if it is indeed the participation in the political process of an individuals community that allows people to calm themselves and reduce their fear of the unknowable future, I would argue that there are two major objectives for any person who wishes to build political processes that negate the emotional fuel for the industries of war, and thereby spread peace.
The first would be to encourage practical participation in as many of the governmental decisions as is possible. Direct democracy would be the ideal solution, as it would allow people to participate in the process by which all laws are ratified.
Secondly, I would argue that the decentralization of political power ought to prove a fantastic opportunity for individuals to become more active participants in the political process of their immediate community.
Again, I would not bother making any argument that the mass of people are more or less enlightened than the experts who control their political process, neither in the capitalist west nor in communist china. Leaving the issue of competence to one side, I would simply argue that active participation in the process of solving problems tempers emotional turmoil, and quells fear. Even if the participation results in mistakes that waste money or resources. It is the mere fact of helping to solve a problem that distracts the emotions of a distraught person, and allows their rational mind to regain discipline over their behaviour.
And I think this hints at the grave flaw in those who would promote the rule of enlightened experts over the sovereignty of the common people, whether they do so in London or Beijing. It is not important that every decision made by governments is the most efficient decision, nor whether the time taken to make decisions is the swiftest, nor whether the market applauds the outcome.
The ultimate aim of any political process ought to be, it seems to me, to satisfy the nerves of all the members of the community.
Given that we routinely indulge ourselves in fantasies as useless and abstract as nation states, or fairies at the bottom of the garden, I would make a vigorous case that humanities primary need is to settle down, and think hard about practical ways to solve difficult and boring problems.
First we need to spread reason, and only then is it useful to speak of efficiencies and bountiful material outcomes. Otherwise, I suspect, we'll all continue to be lead by the nose by people who seek to purchase a new model sports car with the proceeds of government contracts for weapons of mundane destruction.
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american football should be called american rugby.
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cool_brush_work wrote:
"Truly, I just am at a loss as to how to defend your own Nation's History to you!"
And you feel as someone who is not from Finland that it is your place to be telling someone that is how they should feel about their own country and history?
Where does such arrogance and disrespect come from that you feel it is your place to do that?
*Corrected post excluding unaddressed remarks*
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Gleb Lozino-Lozinsky also said a thing I found interesting, how he sorted twice 2 technical bugs, looking at nature.
He said on his conciousness is 1 man's death, a pilot of Mig, due to technical fault in design. And he couldn't figure out why the plane went out of control. And couldn't, for the life of him, for a long time.
Then he said he was in Central Asia, in the desert, and saw a hand-washingg that Russian thing, that water dispenser. Old, rusty, metal thing. nearby it on a branch of a dry tree in plus 40, under burning sun, sat a sparrow. And looked at the wash-hands that water dispenser. Stared :o))) And Lozinsky stared at the bird. In 15 minutes a drop of water was formed under the dispenser, it took off and began falling. The sparrow intercepted it in air! drank it up in flight! And sat opposite the water dispenser again, waiting for the next one. Lozinsky said "I understood he does because in 1 drop of water there was his life".
And thought that one drop of water can make difference btw life and death.
And when returned back to his Mig began looking if water condenses in one particular part of it somehow. And it did. But he said he'd never even begin thinking of water as a reason, like how on earth? cannot be. if not that sparrow.
And the other bug he sorted looking at a small pebble in the street under rain, that a water stream, streamed down the stream, a tiny stream, but still, a tiny pebble as well. And formed like a cap above the stone, like a small meduse jelly fish a cap shape, on top.
That's when he figured out why some part of his Mig forgot what was blown off, because nearby on teh surface he found exactly a small protruding little bug :o)))) a part of the design, when air stream flowing by it was causing a same cap on top of it, and routing air to another Mig part, which was being torn off by the stream. So he says he relocated that small protruding whatever elsewhere on Mig, and all went fine at once. But he'd never think of it if didn't see that pebble under rain, by chance.
Very sharp eye, seems to me, rather than "gut feeling".
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democracythreat wrote:
"But leaving aside the emotional hyperbole and the vaguely weird idea that pacifists owe their freedom to soldiers when pacifists are now living in debt servitude to bankers, there remains the ugly fact that the military is widely supported by most communities. And hence, so is the industry that supports them."
It isn't "ugly" to "most communities" because they can see the huge difference between being persecuted, imprisoned and murdered for simply expressing an opinion and a financial system in need of fine tuning.
"It makes sense to me that people can allay their sense of helplessness and vulnerability when they participate in a political process. I mean, even if they make the wrong decisions. The mere fact of doing something, of taking part in what might be a solution, should logically attenuate feelings of helplessness."
How exactly does that work in a dictatorship or a communist country?
"First we need to spread reason, and only then is it useful to speak of efficiencies and bountiful material outcomes. Otherwise, I suspect, we'll all continue to be lead by the nose by people who seek to purchase a new model sports car with the proceeds of government contracts for weapons of mundane destruction."
Many people around the world have much more important things to worry about first, like life and liberty, than someone trying to steal their tax money.
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WA;
"I understood he does because in 1 drop of water there was his life"
"And thought that one drop of water can make difference btw life and death."
"But he'd never think of it if didn't see that pebble under rain, by chance."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98T3PVaRrHU
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AllenT2 "jealous of what".
Of the space station you didn't have and of the submarines, though, in the last part, I think it's better to say "wanted to avoid competition".
Now, democracythreat :o))))
What's that about our picketing with Mavrelius, that we are full of nation eh pride and all, that all our defects stem from this un-healthy competition. :o))))
I know you are against the concept of the "nation-state" and would gladly cancel all ideas of "motherland", "faterland", land of the? Americans :o)))) etc. us wrong all.
Now, if you were reading more of samizdat :o) in your time :o) you'd know this quote:
Among ? oh. that grass that is pricky and cuts your feet when a rye field is just ? collected/cut. "sternya". Stern grass, must be.
And? "notforgettie" ? That small blue fieldflower?
Forget-me-not.
Aha.
So,
Among stern grass and forget-me-nots
We aren't the ones who chose the path (prev. generations did)
And "native land" - is superstition :o)
That can not be defeated, alas!
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WA;
"You are right, he straight says in his interview "they told me to abandon Spiral and make a copy of US shuttle, because US shuttle flew and returned back, proven in reality, and your Spiral is still in trials, and we are annoyed US has a shuttle and want result quick". He says he reasoned he doesn't like it, and doesn't like to copy anything, but was made to."
And ever since I meet this man my life is not the same
And Nikolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name AI!
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Here's the real deal. This is what New Orleans is about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q0zZ0VdlUM
The Colts didn't deserve to win anyway. The scrammed out of Baltimore in the middle of the night because they knew if they left in broad daylight, they never would have made it out of town alive. Their ex-fans would have killed them first :-)
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Here's how they did it uptown. More refined. After midnight round about closing time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyLjbMBpGDA
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Awful battle in Ukraine.
03:35 4.06 (per cent difference btw the two candidates)
03:59 3.91
04:02 3.61
04:24 3.8 (70 per cent of bulletins counted)
04:24 3.88
04:45 3.7
04:51 3.5
Of violations, pro-Timoshenko regions didn't report their numbers to the Central Elections' Bureau by 3 am in the morning (no number from Kiev, Lvov, Ivano-Frankovsk, Volyn).
On Janukovich side of Ukraine, one deceased woman was identified who voted in both the 1st round of elections and in the 2nd.
Ukrainians and Russians in the blogs began repeating themselves :o) , lost (electronic) voices from exhaustion :o))) wishing each other either to live long and well or to get lost (soft version) or to survive somehow :o))), and only rarely someone squeeks "Chekhov! He doesn't even know who is our Chekhov! aaah" or "we'll perish with this avanteurist-ka" entirely or some gasterbeiting Ukrainians abroad complain they couldn;t vote in their embassies. I think will go sleep.
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WA;
"Ukrainians and Russians in the blogs began repeating themselves :o) , lost (electronic) voices from exhaustion :o))) wishing each other either to live long and well or to get lost (soft version) or to survive somehow"
No doubt a toast with vodka at each new congratulations or insult...both sides. By the time they go to sleep, neither side will care who won. Nostrovia! Yeah, nice to know ya too! Skoal!
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I do not think Obama meant to snub Europe at all !
My father used to belong to an exclusive sporting club , located near the industrial heartland of England . Many of the members were aristocrats . In modern times they had to be businessmen as well . I was amazed at their brash unkindly behaviour to one another . I put it down to their having developed businessmens manners ; it is business that counts , not the petty niceties and civilities .
With all due respects MarcusAuraliusII ; many Europeans see Americans as brash and illmannered , because that is how business is done .
The European Union has an image of itself , comprising 27 counties and a large land mass , as far bigger and more important than in reality it is . In the world at large it is seen more in the light of a developing country of little significance . I live in Thailand , where few people have heard of the European Uunion at all ; though they have heard of Britain , France and Germany . I suspect that is the case in many other countries . The EU offered to mediate in the 2007 Thai general election , but Thailand gave them a Flat No Thanks .
Obama did briefly attend the Copenhagen summit on Climate Control ; which subsequently is reported to have been based on 20 years of spurious research in Britain . Obama for the USA , together with China , wound up the summit , with no conclusion or recognition of Europes contribution .
Obama has become president of the United States at a time when the country is suffering a downturn in its financial affairs and in many other areas . He has a huge almost insuperable task to try to put the US back on track to prosperity . Home affairs come first !
Effectively the Copenhagen Summit was a waste of his time ; why then should he visit Spain at the beginning of its 6 months of EU Presidency ; especially when the EU has two other presidents " More Important?".
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Does the Eu- Us summit end today or continue throughout the week?
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JukkaRohila and Cool_Brush_Work
I am fascinated reading your heated discussion about Finnish history , the first and second world wars . I have read quite a lot relating to the first and second world wars . I am often amazed that their is another opinion that largely refutes the former . Historians who write today about past events , that they have coloured with today's morality and concept of war .
Thailand prides itself on not ever being colonised ; though it has largely been overun by Burma . During the second world war it was occupied by Japan . Several Kings and a number of wealthy and important persons have been Educated in England . So many British customs have been adopted here that you might think Thailand had been a British colony at some time . I believe The British Forces were instrumental in liberating Thailand at the end of WWII .
Most Thai people know very little of Thai history ; I am told that written histories are largely made up and false . My personal view of Thai history is that it is more of a fantasy and fairytale .
An Italian friend of mine , a prominent lawyer , a declared blackshirt fascist ; said to me one day , " Of course it was all Churchill's fault ". I have never been able to get any further explanation .
The British government tried very hard to persuade Mussolini not to enter the war with Hitler . I believe that the British government said that it would not make any pacts , agreements or trade offs with Italy's Fascist government . Maybe that is what my friend was refering to .
Mussolini asked Hitler whether if he joined with Nazi Germany , Italy could be assured of certain territories , like part of southern France and others . I believe Hitler consented to these requests .
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It is funny how we usually end up discussing the past 60 years or more during a discussion on such an issue. But it is natural: everything has a root cause that cannot be any recent.
Europe was divided, made war, was weakened and fell the perfect pray to USSR and US, the western part it got indebted to the US, but then also saw considerable development after the war achieving of the highest standards of living in the world. What to complain? Well, as strategists know, being "rich" is no good when you do not have the freedom of deciding for yourself. As Europe becomes increasingly - at an alarming rate - just a little corner of the world, the US will give less and less importance to its well being. In practice, the US will not hesitate in future to transfrom Europe into a boxing bag to flex its muscles opposite to Russia and that was seen during the civil war in Jugoslavia (where EU failed apart the likes of Greece and Spain, the only countries that took a position that was not only the moral one but also the one that served the real EU interests).
All those issues we sit and talk about the economies and such are null if we do not put the geostrategic context. I insist on this. Europe cannot go on like that, has reached the point of no return. The US protects EU from nothing but EU has to pay the price of that. Russia has absolutely no interest of attacking Europe its biggest client - if anything it would first attack its ex-USSR republics, but Russia let them free in the first place and seems only happy to influence their politics so they do business together - something not bad in itself (inspite of the complexes of many of these countries) considering that letting them alone it lets these countries in the mercy of the US that aims to transform them in boxing bags - the case of Georgia destroyed out of it US alliance is obvious and the case of Ukraine that got more poor and more indebted through its effort to work with the US instead of working with Russians to achieve common targets (of controlling the gaz suppliers and the Black Sea commerce) is even more obvious.
Remaining longer in this by now (since the early 90s) sick relationship with US, Europe will get more and more sick. There is no other solution but to develop at last the long awaited EU independent defense strategy. This is the key to any hope of EU doing anything in future. The other is remaining continuously indebted. There is no reason why countries like France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece would not want such a strategy. They have nothing to battle among each other but they have lots of common interests to defend especially speaking of the global energy trade. A common defense strategy implies that there will be actually a lower expense on military by each country through a compact (but obviously still large!) european force: that is the issue today. No France and no Germany will be ever attacked alone and of course none is planning attacking the other, that is out of question. What is the point of having separate forces today? Having closely collaborating forces merging into one Euro-task force means lower expenses but on the other hand it will revitalise the european defense industries by new commands of new weaponry that will aim at closing the big technological gap with US as well as with Russia that is of course progressively re-newing its ancient (but often still top of the top) military stock.
At the end of the day, countries that are not willing to participate in the common defense strategy, they should at last opt their way out of the EU altogether, there is no reason to stay in. EU cannot afford anymore to be lukewarm. It has to show a new stance in the world.
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WebAliceinwonderland wrote:
"Of the space station you didn't have and of the submarines, though, in the last part, I think it's better to say "wanted to avoid competition"."
Once again you are out of your element. You are talking about things you obviously know little about.
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Huaimek
Hmm, Your 'blackshirt fascist' friend: That is of course a euphamism for a racist-bigoted-one-man/party rule-extreme right-wing-nationalist who basically supports the idea of to the strong go the spoils and the weak go to the wall!
What a charming 'legal mind' such a 'Lawyer' must possess.
He/She would 'blame' anyone, but the great pomposity, scoundrel and vicious autocrat, Benito Mussolini for Italy's part in WW2: Afterall, Winston Churchill became Prime Minister of the new UK National Government on 11 May 1940; it was not until June 14 1940 Mussolini's fascist dictatorship declared war on France & Britain. That gave Italy's monstrous oaf a whole month of excuses to come up with: Naturally, a fascist would not admit it was not until Nazi Germany's absolute guarantee of military success in the 1940 'west' Europe campaign that Italy dared launch its offensive against the unfortunate, beleaguered south-east French forces!
Incidentally, the one successful French campaign of that critical, ill-fated summer was... against that Fascist Italian Invasion (it was a similar story for the thoroughly beaten British Expeditionary Forces on mainland Europe - - the Nazis won at every turn - - meanwhile a British North African Army trounced the fascist Italian forces!).
My, how the declared 'fascist' and 'lawyer' must glory in 'Blackshirt' Italy's achievements!
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AllenT2
Re #239
Ermm, no, I don't try to tell Jukka_R how he should feel about his country!
Ermm, yes, I do have a view as to why and how his forefathers behaved on behalf of his country!
You need to read each part of our exchange of comments: It began from my claiming the UK had not been an aggressor in EUrope for 200 or so years & JR, as is his right on here, disputed that. We have been drawn into a sort of stand-off on the meaning of 'aggression' and as he has stipulated examples of what he believes to be British aggression, so I have sought to show via the incidences of Finnish History that Nation's must make difficult and often (only by hindsight) policies deemed wrong/bad.
I stand by every word of my comment: I deny they are founded on 'arrogance' or 'disrespect' - - my wife and children are Finnish - - furthermore, when I 'feel' the need I will comment on the affairs of the UK, USA, Europe, Scandinavia, Asia, Africa etc. from my own standpoint.
And, I make no apology for using the BBC Blog as a method of doing so.
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R257: AllenT2 I saw also your previous messages. It seems that is more you that are out of tune with the modern times. Yes, some 50 years ago USSR was the bad guy, communism, a western product imposed externally on Tcharist Russia so as to contain it and isolate it from the world markets at a times Russia was developing fast and was already the 2nd oil exporter in the world - with all what that could imply back in 1910...no comments. And yes back in the 1950s US offered the face of a kind of soft-power or at least the promise of that.
What followed dissilusioned even the most faithful. Wars and continuous campaigns, imposed dictatorships, incited civil wars, financial experiments and artificial impovershment of countries, stealing of the worlds ressources etc. etc. Something which could be loosely justified till the 1990s using the USSR theat pretext, but something which after the 1990s could not be justified even by a large part of even the "patriotic" side of the US citizens (let alone the "democrat communists"). The US proved to be as much a dictatorship with as much censorship as any other autocratic state. The examples are numerous. But I love the ones concerning the very same US citizens: I will only mention what happened to the hundreds of thousands of 1991 Iraq veterans who started dying from uknown illnesses while their wifes were giving abnormal births to extreme percentages (as much as 50% from what little is known...) things hardly known in the US since the governement attacked doctors doing such researches, sacked people, even killed people through common car or domestic accidents while very few stubborn doctors went on to Canada or the EU to publish their statistics, in vain though as the results were never accepted by any scientific community for obvious reasons.
The only difference between a state like China or Russia and a state like US is that the Russians and the Chinese are more sincere. What I say about the autocratic way of US is obvious by the way US receives its closest ally, Britain (and note that Britain is not the last of the last, it is still a world power!). Compare this to the way Russia or China receive even little and often hostile countries like Bulgaria, Syria, Turkey, Poland, Nepal, Thailand etc. The relationship of smaller countries with Russia or China be it difficult, be it on the edge and no matter whatever Russian or Chinese inteventionism is much more egalitarian than with the US.
And why is that? Is it because Russians and Chinese are ancient cultures and much more civilised than the US? Yes they are, but that is not the case. The case is that simply these 3 powers have different aspirations. Russia and China are into developping ties with the world and exporting their respective products (energy and manufacturing). They are interested in doing business with the world. And since they are interesting in doing business with the world, they are inherently interested in the development of their clients - a poor client in bad condition buys not much. US is not at all aiming at exporting many things to the world, it mostly aims at controlling the world and living off the world commerce more or less like a parasite. That is the reason of sending its armies into the most remote areas of the world. When it is present in ex-Jugoslavia, in Georgia, in Iraq, in Afganistan, in South Korea it is to draw the circle of control around the world and of course isolate Russia and China what normally can become the main passage of the world's commerce (energy & products alike) in future.
Just keep in mind one thing: the financial health of EU does not depend on the financial health of the US (or in case there is some dependence that should not be tha case). The financial health of the EU depends singlehandedly on its geostrategic capabilities that can guarantee EU having a voice over the decision making concerning the energy and manufacturing goods traderoutes. And at the end of the day the EU can be financially healthy only via the development of the Eurasian traderoutes as an alternative of the southern Indian ocean maritime traderoutes - that is something that the morphology of the earth's landmass is dictating and we cannot avoid it.
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Woke up :o) 2.19 per cent difference btw Janek and Julia, 96% of bulletins counted.
Julia refused to surrender, 3rd round of elections out of the question, but Julia plans to question in courts each and every bulletin against her, even if it takes years.
Thus, until it's a new election time :o)
That's what happens when a country walks away carrying with it 1/2 of Russia! Don't grabatise foreign property - and you won't have your country split exactly 50/50!
Well, may be they can form a two-party system? Like democrats and republicans? The diff. will be in the US both parties would want to stay at home, while in Ukraine one party will enternally try to pull Ukraine back into Europe, and the other - forward into Russia. :o)))))
I think I put "back" and "forward" correctly. :o)
Ukraine has been part of Europe, part of Poland - so it'll be exactly "back to Europe".
Did it awful good :o))) We all remember great Ukr. achievements, heaps to remember :o))) when they were Polish barons' slaves for centuries. Their peasants.
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Except that Janukovich might try to pull Ukraine into Belorussia, instead.
:o)))) After all, he's Belorussian.
And Julia - into the USA. :o)))) Hardly - "into Armenia". ?
Anyway all rulers go country stays. Hope it concerns Russia as well :o)))
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252. MarcusAureliusII
im sure you are proud of your country. some of the americans i have met have been very good and decent human beings indeed. however i am confused with some of your ramblings. China for example is a very ancient country and civilisation. much misunderstood. perhaps if you were to actively research this it may give you a better understanding of a different culture and you may not be so dismissive or frightened of something you don't understand. it is always good to look back in history but the future also holds new beginnings. british and German soldiers have fought in active service together for example.
i was very pleased obama was elected as g bush was nothing short of a complete embarrassment for your country. however its clear from rumblings from the tea party convention and their ilk that he has his work cut out. a watered down but moral healthcare initiative so viciously disregarded by some is a good example. However obama also seems content with high military spending and I was sad to see the Cuba embargo extended ! im already wondering if history will judge him as how many now view blair. Elected on a wave on enthusiasm but alas too middle ground and restricted for any serious change? As I said before, in many aspects continuing our close alliance with the us simply prevents us moving forward positively.
Perhaps you would be able to specifically say where in their last 30 years american occupation/military intervention has been successful and the country concerned is now proven to be in a better position. Also perhaps you can advise us all on what the what the great usa (as the great power-brokers) has in-store to solve the conflict in the middle east?
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AT2;
You are correct, once again WA is out of her depth.
WA;
You seem obsessed about this "who has the most bombs" thing. When it comes to submarines, here are the facts. The father of the nuclear submarine was USN Admiral Hyman Rickover. The Polaris series submarines began in the mid 1950s as an invulnerable mobile underwater base that could stay submerged for years without refueling. It's purpose was to launch ICBMs with nuclear warheads at the USSR and other enemies. After that came the Poseidon series and now the Trident Series. This is our Ohio Class submarine which is the closest thing comparabale to your Kursk. I think there are 14 of them of which 12 are on active duty. Each one carries 24 ICBMs. Each ICBM can carry up to 11 nuclear warheads although by treaty they are limited to 8 each. The Trident III ICBM can deliver the W87 warhead (about 300 kilotons) or the more advanced W88 (480 kilotons). That means in one hour with close to 200 warheads each delivered to a separate target and nearly 100 megatons of throw weight one of these submarines could burn down an entire continent like Europe or North America. For Asia it might take two.
Insofar as the technical capability and reliability of Amerian weapons, when US admirals and generals complained during he early 1980s that the US wasn't spending enough on advanced strategic weapons, someone in a Congressional investigating committee asked them which systems they'd prefer to trade for its Soviet counterpart. The answer was none of them.
Right now the US has 9000 hydrogen bombs, Russia has 12,000. Experts say that 200 would be more than sufficient for either side to wipe the other out but I'm convinced it would only take one if it were well placed detonated at a nuclear power plant where it would send 100 tons of enriched unranium into the stratosphere. That should easily kill all human life on earth.
The secret to building very quiet submarines was sold to the USSR by Toshiba who had a contract to build systems for critical components with the US Navy. Those people should have been brought to trial and punished but I suppose the US decided the damage had already been done and relations with Japan were more important. IMO this is one reason contracts for American weapons systems should never be awarded to foreign companies and the punishment for revealing military secrets should be death just the way it was for the Rosenbergs. The secret of how to build the W88 which is a cone only 6 feet long, 22" in diameter at its base weighing less than 800 pounds is probably among America's most valuable military secrets. That was the secret the US DOD was so worried about when it arrested Dr. Chen and kept him isolated several years ago. They thought he'd given it to Communist China.
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It seems to me there is far more interest about the history of Finland on this blog than about the factual history of the United States (I'm not talking about that litany of lies America bashers constantly spew.) Considering how small and unimportant Finland is, why would anyone except a Finn give a fig about the history of Finland? I think anything I wanted to know about the history of Finland could be satisfactorily summed up in one or two paragraphs. Perhaps Russia's account could be summed up in three words. Veni, Vidi, Vici.
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Mavrelius guten morgen.
"And Nikolay Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name, Ai!" :o)))))
Nothing "Ai". :o(
Imagine Communist party tells you to copy shuttle. Will you be able to?
I mean, many stared at your Shuttle, and stare :o))) - somehow I don't see anyone else copying it in 4 years. OK, 6, 1982-1988, but he resisted until Kremlin stopped financing his own babies. To show they are serious and he should stop fooling around "oh yeah I am seriously looking into it, will just complete my Spiral and MAKS and surely you'll have a shuttle as well. One of these days." :o)))))
In fact, I don't imagine somehow now, if Kremlin says again to any of our constructors "copy Shuttle", OK, "shuttle" , simply - "resurrect own snow-blizzard" (Buran).
Mind it, from Lozinsky it seems they didn't steal anything to ease his work to help him, simply "you've got the picture, the concept - what's the problem?"
He could only do it because he had 3 cosmodromes, how to say, all infrustructure, the space station up there, the things on the ground, rockets for take-off, ready coating from his Spiral, own engines. Otherwise - forget it, "to copy shuttle".
He said they insisted even that he copies Shuttle coating, while he wanted another metal for the tiles (a side product in uranium obtaining, in mines)
and Kremlin refused him access to uranium mines, so he used an acquaintance :o)))) who simply stole for him a wagon of that element, from our uranium mines, and delivered it by attaching the wagon to ordinary train :o)))) so began making coating how he wanted, and when state commission found out it was too late :o))))
Here is the picture of the man, and the site changed between yesterday and today, it looks he would be 100 years old somehow today?
All disappeared only his photo appeared.
http://www.buran.ru/
And here are Shuttle and Buran side by side to see how alike they are.
http://www.buran.ru/htm/molniya.htm
And that's really all I know about this, let's change the theme.
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MarcusAureliusII
many good voices coming from america too...
very powerfull. sound up on the pc and press play!!!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24597.htm
one of the biggest issues in the world and one where america has most influence... but what are the us doing about it??
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AllenT2 and Mavrelius,
I thought we are over it :o))) but khm I mean khmm? ! why am I suddenly "out of my element" and "out of my depth"? Me?
Right, I don't know anything scientific, but with those "elements" and "depths" ?
It's quiet in pier, in evening hour
She is the only one who knows
When the tired submarine, from the DEPTH (:o)))) - shall return home
O when the tired submarine, from the depths, shall return home.
Got it? :o))))
dial youtube
ustalaya podlodka (means a tired submarine)
the picture with the big brass tube and placed by someone bally38m
That's my favourite song of all times that I am afraid I am the only one who listens there in youtube :o)))), for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Just listened couple of times 10 min. ago, for mid-day encouragement. :o))))
All 4,000 times there is or 5,000 "views" I am sure were all mine. :o))))
And I am the only one who left there a commentary and one more chap commented a year ago :o))) I think as well.
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WA;
I was offered a job as a senior manufacturing engineer by Lockheed Missiles and Space in Sunnyvale California around 1981. I turned them down because they didn't offer enough money. They told me I'd be one of the highest paid engineers on the space shuttle project. I told them that might explain why they couldn't get the tiles to stick. The problem was known long before one blew up on account of it (I think it was Columbia.)
Buran's problem wasn't just the size and shape of the vehicle, it was all of the systems used to control and monitor it. It isn't like a conventional aircraft, it's like a glider plane...build like a brick faced building. As with the stealth fighters and bombers, these craft require complex computer systems to operate and remain aerodynamically stable in flight. The USSR didn't have them unless they stole them. Even today only a few companies like Intel and AMD in Silicon Valley know how to design and build them. I think the Shuttle used Intel 286 processor technology which is primitive by todays standards. I saw live video of the first time the USSR showed Cosmonauts blasting off in their shuttle. The mission captain was clutching a handful of papers in his hands and I thought my god how pathetically primitive. But somehow it works for them. I guess that's all that matters.
I agree with Buran. I don't like the space shuttle design either. I think there were many much better designs...that were created in Hollywood :-)
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How on earth did we end up in a comparison between US and USSR arms when the question in concern is about EU developing its own defense capacity!
Anyway, comparing USSR and US is not easy. In the level of nuclear missiles, both have comparable, enormous quantities, each of them capable of destroying the earth multiple times. Russians traditionally had a bit more and despite the 10 years break of the Russian Federation under Yeltchin, they retained almost intact that capability and that is what US tries to address with its wish to place missile systems all around the Russian federation.
Far from the nuclear were up to date there is still some balance, the US and Russian armies are of completely different philosophy thanx to their different geostrategic context:
Americans are isolated in their continent. They fear no attack from Canada or Mexico. Their interest is to have an army that can freely move around the world and attack on will - usually chosen targets, selective wars - not anything on a large scale. Hence, they give too much emphasis on the marines, aircraft carriers and other carriers, that can transfer large numbers of troops around the world - something not really needed in a war with USSR (!!!obviously!!!), aircrafts with hi-tech missles & smart weapons, hi-tech GPS satellites, GPS guided missilesn GPS-guided unmanned aircrafts and such... in a few words they have created all what is perceived as a hi-tech army. Albeit one difficult to manage and co-ordinate. Its functioning is thanx to their not far from excellent management.
Russians on the other hand even as USSR clearly never had aspirations of travelling with their own army around the world doing campaigns. They already control much of the world's landmass. Hence, their army traditionally was based in 2 approaches: 1) Face off the American threat, that is develop missile and spatial applications that can act as a deterrent - thus largely being based on hi-tech nuclear missiles and nuclear submarines - alone enough to act as a detterent and a very lower than the US dependence on the marines (notable the lack of interest of a large fleet of aircraft carriers) as well as jet-fighters, though they had developed a range of pretty lethal jet-fighters (according to independent pilots as well as a number of US pilots some of the Sukhois are "just what a pilot needs"). But the main force of the Russians is on land, they have an impressive capacity in terms of land forces which they will not hesitate to use in a direct front, not numbering the casualties unlike the US who need first 2-3 repeated bed-bombings and widespread dropping of chemicals and some climate control spraying before sending in their troops (who often suffer with mysterious illnesses cause by all those chemicals used...). In spatial applications the Russians have always been ahead with US mostly playing in impressions rather than solid result - and a solid result was MIR, a station made to be there for 4 years which served finally for more than 15 years (a record, given that space stations' condition deteriorates rapidly due to humidity). The very existence of the ISS proves it - afterall ALL astronauts on the ISS are obliged to learn Russian for the simple reason that most of its architecture (and its basis) is Russian (modules are only international).
To put it straighforward, Americans and Russians are still balanced. Yes Americans have exploited the past 20 years and jumped ahed. But without gaining substantial advantage as the basics remain the basics. It is only the upheaval of the 1990-2000 period that destabilised enough Russia to make Americans greedy and wanting to take them out completely, something which seemed quite possible in the mid-90s and the complete lack of initiative from the Russian side but which seems much less possible today with Russia re-arming with brand new weapons following the trends.
US has shown an inability to take up direct action in the neighbourhood around Russia. In Georgia, in Tchetchenia they did not do anything at all, on the contrary, they managed to give Russians the justifications to affirm their control. Nobody has said that it is easy for US to enter the ex-USSR space. Even the fact that they are playing there shows their power. But will give anything, is playing there enough? See Ukraine. I had predicted since the first days of the Orange revolution (and my EU friends were laughing at me) that Ukraine would turn again - would run back in the arms! - to Russia but even myself was amazed as to how fast it happened! Sign of the times? No not necessarily - at the end of the day what is Ukraine if not half of it historic parts of Russia (all the eastern and southern part of it is Russia) as well as anything between 40 to 45% of the population identifies themselves as Russians or half-Russians.
The big question - repeat once again - is where the EU stands geostrategically on all that? If we talk on financial issues avoiding this issue it will lead us nowhere. Financial issues are secondary to geopolitical and social issues are secondary to financial. We Europeans do the complete opposite.
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Not with "Buran", MA, but with LL, if you can't spell Lozino-Lozovsky.
He thought the defect is one has to wait for the right orbit time or the Earth turn or something? and only use that very moment, while taking off on horseback :o) , on another plane back, like a turtle sitting on a bigger turtle (as it looks to me), allows to take off where you like and when you like. And you can maneuvre, avoid those? strong winds, wrong places to fall down :o))) if something goes wrong, etc. It's very limited choice of places to take off in shuttle-or if it were still now - in buran mode. One has to have free of everything the trajectory of potential fall-down.
Also, in this Shuttle-Buran mode the poor cosmonauts/astronauts have no second chance, once it's set off, neither in take off nor in landing. Very inflexible system, originally. And the expensive thing itself - doesn't have second chances :o)))
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With "aerodynamically stable" he also said somehing, in his interview, not to general Russians, buut there is one in the net where tecnical folks, aviation chaps were interrogating him. Not that I understood much of it :o)))) but he was shifting engines back and forward, as I understood, playing with that, because exactly said "aerodynamically unstable system, with centre weigh shifting en route".
He did 12 or 13 Burans ! playing with this and that (destroyed most :o))) looking for the balance and other things. Not full with everything, but as I understood to specifically try take offs, specifically try landings, specifically burn up as many tiles as possible :o)))) etc. But only one Buran who did the full cycle.
There are moneys quoted some disastrous amounts in billions dollars he spent on destroying his 15 or so Burans one after another :o))) until came up with something satisfactory.
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WA;
If it really interests you, here's a site that will give you all the information you'd want to know about nuclear armaments, delivery systems including lots of photos, descriptions, and a complete list of all past and current American nuclear weapons, delivery systems, capabilities, numbers, even how they work. (Detailed engineering plans not included.) There's even video of the largest nuclear explosion ever, Tsar Bomba the Soviet superbomb.
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/
Here's a link to descriptions of the Oho class subs;
http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/navy/submarines/ssbn726_ohio.html
Here's something;
"All 24 missiles can be launched in less than one minute."
Jane's is a site that has lots of information on all of the military armaments around the world.
Of course Buran could have bought a plastic model of the space shuttle made by Ravell in any American toy store. I think they'd probably cost about $15 or $20 each.
If you really like submarines, I'm sure you've seen the movie "The Hunt For Red October." I thought it was a pretty good movie. Starred Sean Connery.
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By the way it seems to me if those amounts of money for breaking expensive equipment in trials are true - that was quite a nail into the coffin of the USSR. Looks more expensive than Afghanistan war.
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WA;
The ceramic tiles on the skin of the shuttle are the heat shield. Re-entering the earth's atomosphere at high speed, friction between air and the vehicle cause the surface to become very hot. Ceramic tiles or brick of some sort called "refractory materials" are the ideal insulation because they do not conduct heat well but can withstand very high temperatures. They also weigh a lot. The problem was getting them to stay on the vehicle. When they came off because insulation from the external fuel tank fell away and struck the shuttle Columbia on takeoff, the damage to the tiles doomed the shuttle to burn up on re-entry. The program was shut down for over a year while the problem was studied. It still isn't clear that it has been fixed satisfactorily. Anyway, there will only be a few more shuttle flights by the US as the program is coming to an end.
There's been talk of a "space plane" that might be launched from the back or belly of another aircraft to get it into the air. It's an old concept that hasn't been developed yet. Whether such a plane could be built remains to be seen. Yes the costs are staggering, the venture very risky, lots of danger, lots of failures, people killed, but that is what exploration of the unknown entails. Is it worth the cost? Many Americans aren't so sure anymore that it is. Many would rather live in their Star Trek fantasy world. After all, it only costs about 100 million to make a movie. Cheap compared to the real thing.
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Hunt for the Red October a good movie for Americans no doubt.
Commander decides to surrender his sub to Americans - blessed are those who have Faith, for theirs will be God's tsardom :o)))))
Commander kills his "zampolite", on board, self-handedly. Commander murders his crew member.
Aha.
A crew member dreams about a "small cottage in Chicago".
The sub fights another Russian sub, on the side of Americans.
to say nothing of the hymn of the USSR performed on board :o)))), hats with ears, and t-shirts in which they are skulking around in neglige conditions :o))))) Grotesque US imagination, and the film director who definietly never been close to a sub by 10 miles. But then he was definitely short on translators' money as well, because the kind of Russian they speak there is timbuktu for us.
Mavrelius, you entertain funnny beliefs about "polimorsos"/political-moral condition/ of folks on board a Russian sub. Especially post-Perestroyka when absolutely all saw the sale of the Navy to Americans as a personal offence by the state. Were feeling sold down the river, by upper predating echelons in Kremlin.
If you think we were ever in love of Gorbi-Yeltsin decisions re the fleet, blessed are the innocents, as I said.
The only true thing that the author of the book caught was the appearance of 6 subs in Typhoon serie in 1984.
Indeed, an un-pleanst surprise for Americans, as the only sub so far able to shoot from under the polar crust cover, without breaking it first and thus showing its presence.
So off away with them nasty all ASAP :o)))), and the contract of 1990 that we signed with you (I assure you I did't :o))) was that they are to be cut to needles, the whole 6, courtesy of American "help", who will even graciously finance the cutting :o))))
One of the last ones, that we managed to delay the cut, will still be cut - tomorrow. Board number 712, as you insist on the completion of the "Agreement." In Severodvinsk - tomorrow.
Your delegation, made up of "Members of American Congress and Defense Ministry has finished its inspection trip to Severodvinsk to monitor how the Contract is being carried out."
So you still have your way, Russia keeps to the deal. Hope you are glad and happy, which can't be said about me, and the Russian Navy watching all this jazz are no doubt much obliged. To the former Russia's government and to the USA in particular.
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Web Alice
you have the means to see that movie (film) again with a fresh eye. Its also about the US Depression and the lengths of debasement people will go to and the big unraveling of people. Gig Young was so good as to make capitalism seem sordid..it CAN be.:)
The Russian translation of the name was wrong..its more.... they shoot horses when nothing else "can be done." Today therapy and prozac might have saved her:)
And this thread was "threadbare" except a few ..like you. You make one laugth.
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lefty10
Re #263 and previous stuff on the USA
It is breathtaking how easily you take a swipe at nearly all things 'american'!
Then you ask how is the USA going to solve the Middle East issues!?
It could have been an attempt at rhetorical, but I think you meant it!
I.e. almost everything is the fault of America, but America has almost all the answers!
Well, what about that delightful ancient China you mentioned? I'm sure with the patience, tolerance and perceptive cultural exchanges they've shown in Tibet and in assisting North Korea they could achieve a lot in the Middle East?
Then there's all those other faultless Nations which if we took the time to understand as you suggest I'm sure would just pile in with helpful hints for World Peace: E.g. Russia, after its fine efforts with Chechnya and Georgia its bound to have some positive thoughts on how to settle disputes between neighbours. And, what about involving Nations closer to the Mid East - - Iran comes to mind, it has just tried and convicted 200+ Iranians for 'fermenting revolution' and executed 6, plus it executed some 5,000 members of the communist party in the 1980s, as well as Human Rights activists, so, its got a sound record in the art of negotiation-compromise with dissatisfied people in the region.
There are many others, but I'll leave you to come up with another of those lists that are so helpful on the causes of all the ills of the world.
Breathtaking!
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WA;
It was only a movie, take it easy. In the real world, nobody wants that old Soviet 1980s era junk. We have far more than enough of our own already. Besides, there's nobldy left to fight. Who are they going to nuke, the whales? Last I heard, a lot of Soviet submarines are rusting hulks spewing radioactive toxins and other poison into the water somewhere in northern Russia. One day you will regret that mess you're making. It doesn't go away by itself.
Ever see the movie "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" with James Mason? It's based on the story by Jules Verne. Another great submarine movie. How about "On the Beach." One of those nuclear war movies of the 1960s. Pretty famous. Also a submarine movie. You might have liked the movie and the TV series "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea." The movie starred Waltr Pigeon. Only submarine ever with 1960 style Cadillac tail fins :-) Never did see that famous German one called "Das Boot." There's another famous one, black and white probably made in the 1940s I can't remember the name of with a German sub that is eventually blown up. It's about the German submariners trapped inside. Terrible movie, goes on forever.
I had a shot at a job once on a nuclear sub. Hard to believe but true. Just getting out of school. Sperry offered me a job to train as a civilian engineer on them. After 5 years I'd have gone on 14 week sea voyages if I wasn't married yet. 14 weeks at a time mostly on overtime at taxpayer expense. I kept thinking about the Thresher. No thanks.
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One other thing leaves me wondering, since Lisbon the EU now has an Ambassador here in Switzerland with his own Embassy and the staff and house that that entails...... does that mean that the EU member states will now give up their embassies or is there just even more bureaucratic costs being added the the EU? I can't remember if this was part and parcel of the Lisbon Treaty but if every country has now an EU Ambassador????? the mind boggles
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MA @ 279 "take it easy". Normally I would, but not today when heard of the last Typhoons.
"Nobody needs rusty 1980-s junk", right. But how rusty that junk was in 1990, esp. these six, barely completed a year before Gorby or whoever scoundrel it was back then who signed to destroy them?
1 year old junk? Half a year old?
You don't understand the madness of the situation, some of the serie were not yet built before they were signed to be destroyed - and they continued to finish them up!
Where's money, Zin?! (Zinaida) - as asks one unhappy husband his spouse. in the song that you don't know anyway.
I understand we were poor before because spent 70-80 % of the budget on keeping "parity with you" which was costing you, in parallel, about 3-4 per cent LOL of your revenue. So far so good that is, bad.
I understand if we would become another neutral Switzerland when some idiot signed up with America we don't need Navy anymore as we are nnow "friends".
But the case is we have destroyed 100 AND are building the replacement. Same Severodvinsk - in one staple builds, in the next one - slices!
Mavrelius, I am afraid this is even more expensive mode of existence than before :o))))
Before we spent money of them but kept them at least. The next stage :o) became we build and destroy and build and destroy. And then the world wonders "why Russia doesn't have money"? ! We'll never have money in this fashion. The Creator, making up oil in the permafrost, clearly didn't count on our these future exuberancies :o))
And Russia can't be Switzerland just look at these neighbours :o))))
(David made a note of it already :o)
Just look at yourself, for that matter.
Same Jukks is good only because small. If was big - switch off the light. as we say :o)))
And Germany, when coming back to shape, will explain anyone in 5 minutes how to stand up and how to line up.
The amount of idiots in this world is un-limited, and you'll be ? "ahm"
? uhmm? eaten . in any corresponding sound, before you have time to issue a squeek. :o))) And no one will even apologise after.
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And the newsline in Russian today exactly sounded like this - Cutting the Red October.
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Mavrelius have you noticed we chirrup here like two nightingales :o)))and transmit radio signals. Power of thought :o))) and all.
Somehow came up shuttle and Buran - next day Lozino-Lozovsky turned 100. Must be his bureau were drinking to his health, remembering him - and we caught the signal :o))))
Next thing you caught up by your whiskers signals about Red October cut to start tomorrow, and mentioned the ship.
?
I am afraid even to talk about anything now :o)))
And some people still wonder how is the world ruled :o))) , lost in various conspiracy theories :o)))
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NOT to Maudib,
She has received her share of putdowns, from bigger mouths than I.
But in 1980, Reagan said the national debt was approaching 1 trillion dollars.
Clinton had budget surpluses so
Bush didn't just do badly, he raised our debt to 10 trillion plus.
What an unforgivable act for patriotic Americans to ponder ...hmmm.
Nuff said.
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WA
Give us ur Buran tech,..for money for next gen shuttle, maybe international shuttle (really Russian tho)?
only right for Russia's future recognition of scientific achievement?
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Join us WA in a trade Union. the EU won't let in Turkey sooo...
Then we'll protect y'all from Chinese "liebensraum"[sic] expansion...it's simply geopolitical..
and you'd be our freedom from China AND your Arctic claims would get proper respect and you would get benefits plus proper respect and influence on the USA big time..
but the suggestion must come from your Putin/Medevev[sic](spelling incorrect)..think of our slavering mouths and your Accension back to economic and military superpower...From our investments and Oil buying lolol
Just to make the EU "safe" and to make China squeall... poor Japan ..they'd be China's new INVOLUNTARY Best Friend :(
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David, Spiral and MAKS were good ideas. I need to look up what Lozino-Lozinsky described as space-ships future, when answering to the tecnical chaps, as he knew the business definietly. After all, spent nearly a 100 yrs strictly focused on it :o)))
Anyway I wanted to look into his interview back, :o) because he was also asked what does he eat, to be able to start thinking about shuttles at 75 and finish one by 79 :o))) kind of, a sporty chap. I remember he described his diet in 3 words :o))) (and no, it wasn't vodka. or cigarettes. definietly not coffee either :o))) some kind of kasha, seems to me.
Another thought, David, oh, beware. In our experience a combination of Afghanistan and spacecraft update - is a bad combination :o))))
And your Obama just announced he is into the second component as well :o))) Un-healthy combination, honestly.
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The thing people dont realize
about Marcus IS,,,wait for it..
he makes valid points amidst his unwavering belief of American um purity,
THAT is why he often enrages people here..he hurts them ...deep sometimes inaccurately but
awfully close to home to cause
SQUEALS of offence..faint praise huh, Marcus.
Cus you do speculate at times lolololol
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oops not moderated ...accident :)
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WA;
There are a surprising number of people including Americans who believe the US never really landed on the moon with men and the whole thing was staged in Hollywood. If that is what people want to beleive, why bother with the real thing? Let's go straight from the space shuttle Enterprise to the Starship Enterprise :-)
We also have a surprising number of people who beleive in flying saucers and alien visitors from space. They believe that aliens crash landed in Roswell New Mexico in the desert and that an alien spacecraft is kept in a secret military compound called Area 54. This is real, it's no joke and it is remarkable how many actually believe it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_Incident
You can google it and you will see how much there is to it. You meet a lot of kooky people in America. Among the kookiest are physicists. Sometimes when I hear their latest theories I wonder if half of them know where their fantasies end and reality begins :-)
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Alice
Have you seen the movie "Enemy at the Gates"? A story centered loosely around Vassily Zaitsev. Facts don't get in the way but I kinda liked it.
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eif;
Just out of curiousity, I'm wondering, since there are so many people from Latin America here in the US, the natural foreign language to learn here would be Spanish. In France would it be English or Arabic?
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David, what do you regard me as in your mind, your alter ego? :-)
Hmmm. Are you pure...David...or are you diluted with someone else?
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no,
nothing but a diversion..
I'm impure to the core and realistically attached to myself, for the rest of my days.,,
it was just a not so effective compliment from me...sorreh
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David I complain, in your other post you used three words that I don't understand and I am lazy to look for the dictionary. Debasement, unreveling and sordid.
Well. may be I will find ouut, this computer at times begins to translate me all into Russian so that I can't read anything, it blocks by small squares under words things or translates the whole page. I tried to get rid of it and I think didd, but may be I'd be able to call the ? gin gyn gene gyne that one, in the lamp, back.
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MaudDib, must be I did, because I remember the name in Russian. But I I think I didn't. :o))) May be I just remember the book's name. need to ask mum :o)))
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Mavrelius, if you sit for a while and concentrate on the thought that the universe is unendable un? - compared to this the rest is possible.
We also believe into heaps of things, but, how to say, are ?
half-minded about it. Half-minded?
:o))) yes. Half-brained and in two opinions :o)))).
Flying dinner plates (correction. not "saucers" here) granted, that green alien that you keep marinated somewhere also a common belief, ghosts (which sound to me suspiciously too much like "guests"! :o), black cats, all that self-respecting, normal people believe in.
That's on the int'l side.
Plus the locals; the Baba Yaga, the watery man, the live water and the dead water, the flame bird (handy lampoon at a garden :o), golden fish to fulfil your 3 wishes, the little humpy horse, the grey wolf as means of transportation (on wolf-back) (legs to one side, like ladies' driving), the speaking pike who lives in your well, the self-driving on snow stove (type of big British Aga) (means of transportation as well), the learned fat tom-cat who walks around the oak tree on a golden chain in circular movement (goes clock-wise - makes a ditty, anti-clock - wise - makes up a fairy tail), the 33 strongmen who walk out of the sea in full armour, nearly with AK :o) as a help to armies, the tsar daugher-swan, the squirrel who gnaws nuts and you collect golden nut-shells under the tree, that hut on chicken legs, the basics, father frost, snow-maiden (melts from love come every spring poor babe), the big turtle-grandmother master of the pond, the self-filling with food table-cloth (handy for picniks and camping(, the flying carpet, the hat that makes you invisible, the fast carrying you high boots, the saucer with a blue edge on which lies an apple (forgot the exact application)(but a capital thing), the roll of threads to throw onto a road in front of you that rolls and shows you the way (GPRS), the aplle tree that bends its branches down to hide you from the chasing enemies, the Kashey-Without-death-one (steals young girls, ugly old man) whose death is in the needle and that needle in a goose egg and that goose egg in a trunk and that trunk on the bottom of the sea, the Boyan island (I think it's Britain but can't explain the meaning of the word "Boyan") (has always been Boyan) (on sea-ocean, on island Boyan), the "thirty-third tsardom, the thirty-ninth statedom" (one place), in other words there isn't a normal thing here around for miles. Or a normal animal. Or a normal human :o))) Take a mirror.
"Sun-shine, mirror, do tell me
But report the whole truth!
Aren't I , in the world, most beautiful
most white-skinned and the ? good-blush- ed one?
And the mirror says to me (nasty thing :o)
- You're OK, nobody disputes. :o))) But .. etc.
Oh, the homely. Small furry chap who lives behind the stove and guards your place.
Hopeless.
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cool-brush-work, I will be formal; - why is Russia suddenly no shining example of handling conflicts? "Chechnya, Georgia".
You must agree we are working on it. :o))) I mean, there is an improvement, btw Chechnya and Georgia.
Similar in size, but Chechnya took 3 wars and 10 years. The amount of blood in tons.
While Georgia, you know. 5 days plus/minus, loss 150 people as Georgia stubbornly insists. Though Gen. Nogovitsyn (before they replaced him in media briefing by a Ministry of Foreign Affairs chap:o))) - still managed to say that his estimate is 5,000.
So something btw 150 and 5,000.
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No, MaudDib, hasn't seen or read "Enemy by the gates". Sounds just like a set-expression to me. I checked wiki and certainly hasn't see that film.
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Alice #298
Poor Marcus......facts won't help him now.
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debasement = making one lose self respect, morals--whomever... makes oneself do that to oneself..could be own self
unraveling = a thread pulled and one becomes weak and dwindled...ie events pulling on thread of sweater of strength till sweater is wool thread lying on floor (in this instance)..can be "unraveling" of a plan...unraveling of sanity
sordid = exposure of grotesque human capabilities, usually not wanted to be seen by others?
sorry ..I, myself, forget "big" words actual meanings:)
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David: "The thing people dont realize
about Marcus IS,,,wait for it..
he makes valid points amidst his unwavering belief of American um purity"
To borrow one of Marcy's own tired trite phrases, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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"Enemy by the Gates"--
Its about a hero of the USSR -- a sniper? --who helps save a Russian city ..a movie starring Jude Law?
But one of a few pro Soviet films about WW2 made by Western movie makers--I. too, want to see it--supposedly a quality film:)
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Its true..its twue..mirrors lie.
I usually like my 50 yr old looks--in the mirror--"gently aged", but in dreams -- at night -- I seem to always be frantically unsatisfied before going out to a bar--
and I never go to bars anymore..last time, a guy asked/stated he wouldnt say no to a "sugar daddy." .. I WAS WHAT??
Otherwise its "Buy me a drink, ok, man?"...there HAS to be a way to meet age appropriate men ..
online "dating does not work.."meet a pervert.com?" NO WAY JOSE. (just a saying)
Ewwwww, back down to reality, up comes ...gravity lolol.
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WA,
my previous post was an example of sordid details..
there is a saying in USA..
TMI = Too Much Information
gentle way of saying ewwwww, but your post inspired me to write sympathetically.
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WA;
Miror mirror onthe wall, who's the fairest of them all?
Tchaikowsky had one way to answer, another genius Walt Disney had another way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaggEYzW73I
There are lots of links to Disney's Snow White including translations into French and Russian but I don't know if the moderators would allow a link to them here. You'll find them on Youtube though as follow ons to this one. The transformation of the evil queen into the old witch was one of Disney's best scenes and the witch poisoning Snow White is pure evil.
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WA;
Scientists now tell us an invisibility cloak may be possible in the not too distant future. It will be made from new engineered man made materials that will bend light striking it at one point and re-emit it at another making light appear to pass right through it while concealing whatever it enshrouds.
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Marcus,
Funny, there is an Arthur C Clarke book on that subject--seeing around corners--I'd have to go to the library to remember the book's name.
Aww the future, the future, not scary except for death..thats why I pray...more...these days lol:)
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There's a quote "life's a bitch, and then you die". I don't look at it that way but it sometimes seems apropo.
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yup
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David, it is my observation that people who want to die because they are tired of life usually get their wish before very long. As I get older, I understand more and more what you are talking about. What was unthinkable when I was in my 20s hearing people in their 60s, 70s, and 80s talk about not wanting to live beyond a certain point is making a lot more sense to me now. When my time comes, I will see death as a friend, an eternal peace from the seemingly relentless and unbearable pressures of life. But I'm not there yet. There's still some piss and vinegar left in my blood...for now.
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Maud and David and MA,
oh. :o(
Along the road - forest thick
With many ugly witches
And at the end of road that
A scaffold! with the axes.
Somewhere
horses
dance
in tact
Un-willingly, and ? "glidingly"
Along our road - all is wrong! :o)))
And, at the end of it, - twice especially!
And - neither the church! Not - the pub! :o))) Nothing, at all, is holy!
No, chaps, all things are wrong, all things wrong, friends.
:o)
In the pubs - green wine caraffe
And - yellow napkins
Paradise! For beggers and jokers.
For me - like for a bird in a cage.
(un-happy Vysotsky :o)
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The talk with the mirror (oval hand-mirror it should be, MA, and on a ? kind of a long neck, with a handle), as I quoted, was formulated by Puhkin in 1815, but he didn't invent it, that's his nanny told him a peasants' normal fairy-tale that he rhymed up.
Disney is then later, but he added a lot to the fairy-tale, gnomes are definitely Western addition.
Disney is absolute aaah, the man knew sense in fairy-tale telling, mesmerised all listening, that is, watching, to proper (Russian) conditions :o)))
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And what to do here, 9 months' winter, bears hybernate, humans compose ditties and fairy-tales. Well, write in blogs as well, these days :o)))
Same element. :o)))
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MaudDib, I looked up the film, Enemy by the Gates, and then the name, looks like Zaitsev existed :o), there is his interview in youtube, where he shows an English-speaking correspondent the place of the duel.
But the voice-over of what he says nearly completely blocks the original Russian, his voice, so I wouldn't insist it was some specific "duel".
From what I caught from Zaitsev's description it rather sounds he thought he dealt with just another sniper (100% clear - didn't know the other one name), simply a very annoying sample. He shows there a kind of a watering hole :o) a well or something, to where Germans used to come after water, thats where he hunted Germans, it seems, and the German chap hunted him. What I couldn't understand because his voice is nearly blocked by English is why the hell the Germans came after water there having the whole river nearby at own service. Anyway that's where he killed the other one, they locked horns over this watering place.
But that's not un-usual, snipers are normally after each other, or top rank commanders, or some communications' chaps delivering packages, I don't think anyone used snipers on either side simply as after infantry, too muuch off a luxury. They go ahead of the rest and take off the posts positioned in around a stationed unit, or some cordons, or men on reconnaisance trips into "own controlled" territory.
In numbers Zaitsev didn't sound anything particular either, his around 200 in Stalingrad is "normal" for snipers of the 2ndWW, I saw another clip introducing our top 20, all had 400-200 deaths on them. So in this aspect he is just one of the top 20 men snipers, and not in the "top charts" at all, how to say. So may be only because the other one was "a name", but certainly Zaitsev himself didn't have a clue about it :o))))
Zaitsev is known as sniper school master, he organised a kind of an :o))) amateur sniper school, while sitting-hunting by Stalingrad. Known more for his graduates ' :o))) names.
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WA;
I hope you read the sequel to "Alice in Wonderland" which was "Through the Looking Glass."
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Marcus,
The United States cricket team have beaten Scotland!
Jings, crivvins, help mah boab!! When did Scotland start playing cricket?!?
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MarcusAureliusII (#275) "Ceramic tiles or brick of some sort called "refractory materials" are the ideal insulation because they do not conduct heat well but can withstand very high temperatures. They also weigh a lot."
The space shuttle tiles are actually rather light, for ceramic, because they are full of air cells, whereas ordinary ceramic tiles are dense. This is not hearsay; I have held a shuttle tile in my hand.
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"Just because the USA wants to remain a third world country without national healthcare we don't have to follow them down into that cess pit" - Doctuer_Eiffel
National healthcare? You mean like in Belgium (the heart of Europe), where after all those 'extra' taxes you've paid, you still have to pay to see a doctor...oh, but you 'get it paid back', after a few months...75%, 50%, 30%?
Where if you're self-employed, own you own business, after handing over 24% of gross for 'social security' you still have to pay for the ambulance, for each doctor/consultant who visits you, for each night in hospital and for each kilometre if you have to be transferred...but hey 'you get it back', all 33% of it...no worries, until you, your husband/wife forgets to pay the other 66% and the bailiffs are at your door at 6am on a Monday morning.
I guess your version of this 'wonderful' European health system, is like the wonderful 'free' education they have here, where parents are camped out on the streets for 5 nights to get their kids into a decent primary*...but hey, that's just Belgium, nothing like this happens in other countries in the EU.
I can't be bothered with sycophants, expats with rose-tinted glasses, or nationalists who haven't stepped off their front porch. What I find most disappointing is that the BBC and numerous other non-EU media haven't ripped all the b**lshit in the comment above to shreds by now...
* http://tinyurl.com/yjdfujo
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of side news we seem to have a problem with Mongolia. That is, they have a problem, and as they are quiet and all forgot about them entirely, somehow, may be - they didn't complain before?
I don't know when it will hit the world news but they are freezing.
Practically, they already froze.
Russian TV informed me today (and they heard from the Red Cross) (who seems to be the only one who noticed that no one heard from Mongolia for quite a long time :o) that Mongolia has frost -50 C steady for the past 5 weeks. And that is not their habitat temperature, their temperature is that grass never disappears as they live along herds of various cows or horses, some cattle folks, as I understand.
Now, 2 million cows and horses froze to icicles, simply, in the eyes of Mongolians, dead. Mongolians themselves died in unknown numbers, because they are only 3 million all in all, wondering gypsy-style, with their herds, the quite big country, and, how to say, don't have mobile phones.
They are hard to re-locate anywhere, it's not Haiti, because they clasp at their dying animals dead, can't imagine their life without those sheep and all, and only run there embracing them, while they die in their hands. Disaster. I saw a TV report, disaster.
I don't know should we offer to re-locate them to Siberia, where it is just -30, -40 now - a joke. There is no grass in Siberia in winter and has never been.
Really, that's the climate change biggest bad "joke" of the year, I am afraid.
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I've heard of Mongolia only once in the past years; when a Mongolian family was travelling in transit through Russia to their relatives in Kazakhstan (Kazakhstan is land of dreams for Mongolians). A whole family, big, about 20 people, trucks with furniture, full set.
Now a mother of that family gave birth on the go, at a Russian kolkhoz (village, used to be kolkhoz before, also end of the world, place called "Rodina"/Motherland.
Then they went on but at the border brave Russian border-guards didn't let them out with a baby with no papers, unaccounted for. Accused them in smuggling out a Russian national (because born in Russia).
Poor Mongolian mum pleaded and wept and cried nothing helped. Angry Mongolian father tried to explain border-guards in gestures (they don't know Russian, border-guards din't know Mongolian) that this is their child and are you nuts or what. Anyway finally some translators were obtained somehow and explained Mongolians they ought to go about a thousand km back into Russia to the nearest baby registration office :o))) in those steppes :o)))) and make papers for the baby as the hospital of the "Motherland" :o))) town of whatever (luckily there was one, somehow) will send their certificate type baby born in the hospital, mum Mongolian name this and that. And then they can continue.
The family said they have no money for fuel to drive back and forward in crazy Russia, Mongolian dad tore off the boy from his wife's hands, shoved him to the border-guards, and pulled his wife over the border to Kazakhstan. And the truck and the rest and all.
Next half a year the child lives in the Motherland kolkhoz, called "Rodina" officially, as his mum desired on his borth in this wonderful hospital :o)))) Anyway she didn't understand what it means, but thought a name as a name, not worse than others.
And the hospital calls to Kazakhstan to the number they've left at the border, and shames the Mongolian father "when will you be back after the baby", to which he slams down the receivver and replies I have 6 more children, if you were so stubborn - keep him.
Anyway sympathetic to the story in TV Russians collected money for the mum to travel back and forward to all bureaucratic places thousands kilometres away and pick up her son finally. And sent. So may be she will come. May be not. Un-resolved yet.
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Russian orphanages are brsting of own children, wide choice, nobody wants the Motherland boy at all. Though I would say he looks quite cute, more like a Japanese.
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Michael B (320)
I suspect you have not met the individual working on a factory floor who have asked me if the EU country I come from is one of the states of the USA...... or the lady who cut my hair who told me she probably need a train ticket to get to my country.
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GH;
"The space shuttle tiles are actually rather light, for ceramic, because they are full of air cells, whereas ordinary ceramic tiles are dense. This is not hearsay; I have held a shuttle tile in my hand."
The operative phrase is "for ceramic." compared to the materials normally used in the skin of an aircraft such as aluminum, titanium, or composites, it is very heavy. Still that is the option that was chosen. Perhaps a de-orbital brun that slowed a craft to nearly zero airspeed so that it fell out of the sky and braking retro rockets that would permit a largely vertical landing instead of a horizontal one would allow for much different skin. But that was science fiction so far. All of the systems in use require a heavy heat shield. This included early space capsules.
WA;
The space shuttle was designed around the payload bay that was configured to carry the Hubbell space telescope. That largely governed its size and shape as I recall.
The lanuch of the telescope was held up for well over a year during the time they were trying to fix problems with the space shuttle. In all that time, nobody thought to test the telescope on the ground to be certain it functioned properly. Only when it was in space did they discover that there had been an error in the design of the optics. It had to be corrected at great expense and difficulty with a space walk when it could have very easily been corrected while it was still on the ground. You have to wonder what those people at NASA were thinking.
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WA #326
The KGBBC strikes again.
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What I understood he had time to do with his Spiral is he made a 1:3 copy of it, called it Bor-1, Bor-2, 3 and 4, for different trials, and kept tossing Bor-4, for example, from maximum height a normal airplane can achieve (TU-95 bomber), with a pilot who was walking over from normal airplane into Bor-4 cabin, before they un-clipped it :o))) and that pilot in Bor-4 was falling down :o)))) in my understanding, that is landing the plane, in L's understanding, using wings that future Spiral should have had, because he disliked that (what you wrote about MA that centre of something shifting) (let me have a look how it's called
during the landing orbital plane passes all stages of speed , from orbital to pre-sound speed. At that the ? stability and manageability of it depends on position of the aerodymaics focus (centre of pressure of ? growth of aaerodynamic forces). That's why in shuttles and buran, where un-controlled aerodynamic focus moves so that the cosmoplane finds itself in non-stabile condition one has to constantly correct the flight which is achieved by using substantially complex ? flow? gas-o-dynamic systems ? refusal of which can lead to a catastrophe.
In Bor-4 prototype of future Spiral system pilot re-positioned the focus in the direction he needed by a very simple way - changing the ? fall out? of the wings, thus providing a ? stock/resource of aerodymnamic stability.
(As the pilot explained "in order to descend - orient the system by horizon and the moment you ? hooked? at the atmosphere - watch after the ? angle of attack and crane/lift and regulate them by wings. )
The wings don't get heated up more than 640 degrees which means they can be made for spiral of ordinary steel ... the movement of wings helps protect their ? frontal edges? from over-heat as in landing they are installed at 40-45 degrees which means their frontal edges are in the same condition that their ? backwards? ones which means the air streams don't ? pull=over? climb-over? the wings but slide down instead that's why in frontal edges there aren't critical dots where max temperatures emerge.
Overall, David, the idea seems to be that the take off is Mria current Russian plane, but not because it's ideal but because that's the only thing LL had at hand without additional expenses. SAnd the orbital plane takes off from the ordinary plane, when it is lifted as high as it possible up. Because it's more comfy for space tourists and ordinary un-trained folk, as the gradual ascent of a plane is not so nervous and stressing and that ? over-load :o)))) as in our relations with you is absent. Well, not absent, but still a normal airplane climbs up gradually, compared to the rocket by which shuttles and (Buran did) climb up.
And when the orbital plane gets off the back of the carrier plane finally, and uses must say a very un-comfortable quick ascend - this is pea-nuts as well, because THAT stress takes place already in those? no-weight conditions. By LL plan.
Only for the plan to be perfect he disliked the current Russian plane MRIA as the lift, because it's "below-sound", and to have the Spiral system comfy and all the initial carrier-plane used has to be super-sound one. Which Russia has got not. A heavy heavy carrier super-sound big plane.
The metal MA of which Spiral-Bor etc outer surface of the frame was made was niobij, merge of it with other things, look it in the Mendeleev table if you can. I can not.
Rockets LL used only to take up his Bor-1-2-3 etc up in trials, and only those who spent their resource and were given for him FOC as spend-away pocket money :o)))) He didn't like rocket idea of take-off as un-comfy for ordinary folk and spend? drift? like, a rocket is every time used new and gone.
Then he drowned the Bor-1-2-3 etc in the Pacific and in the Black sea.
Well, THAT is definitely still available :o)))
Now, the main thing, - the menu!
Lunch, dinner - unknown. Breakfast (that allows one to figure out all the above :o)
kasha - tea - an apple.
For parties - portwein. :o)))) For snacks - salted fat herring :o)))
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MA, your old X-15 is mentioned, as gave ideas for the carrier plane, as is written "6.72 times sound speed and reached 107906 metres height, trials of X-15 in the beg. of 1960-s".
On your telescope :o) ... I think the reference is here, when he is answering on Buran:
"General Constructor Glushko considered that by that time there wasn't enough proof of Spiral guaranteed sucess, while flights of Shuttles proved that a system, similar to Shuttle configuration, works successfully and in taking that path the risk in the choice of configuration is smaller. Though the absence of marsch engines in Buran changed the centering, wings' position, configuration of ? ? flow-over? and a row of other differencies.
- Still, the copying in big volume of Shuttle configuration - was it a result of practical reasoning or the influence of "directed from above"?
Answer: Copying, as said above, was absolutely logical and had a serious base ... etc. ... The main political demand was provision of parameters of the section of ? the meaningful cargo equal to the section of the meaningful cargo of "Shuttle".
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Mavrelius, I think enough with old burans-shuttles for today, sleep-time.
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WA;
Here's a link to niobium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niobium
It looks like a good candidate in the form of a steel alloy in which niobium adds strength and thermal stability for use in an aircraft wing. In pure form it will melt at very high temperatures. It isn't particularly rare so it probably isn't terribly expensive.
Just ate a pint of Edys chocolate ice cream. Couldn't help it. That was dinner. 1200 calories. Tomorrow we'll be snowed in. Maybe I'll make some BBQ babyback pork spare ribs. Haven't done that in a long time. No turkey in the house this week.
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MaudDib, when I am depressed or need to wash dishes :o), or cat's ear :o( I listen to this, as an encouragement. I gave the directions before but not sure you saw it.
Two pups singing a first love' song. :o)))) (that happened in war-time)
Dial in youtube Sisters Tolmachevy Katyusha
the first pop-up, placed by someone trambulamer 2:19 minutes
oj, and Nik and huaimek, if watching from the other thread :o)
I now exactly need to do things :o), so will use, as a homework cheer-up.
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"Michael B (320)
I suspect you have not met the individual working on a factory floor who have asked me if the EU country I come from is one of the states of the USA...... or the lady who cut my hair who told me she probably need a train ticket to get to my country." - Islandhopper1
I don't quite get the connection...average Joe US isn't the best educated in geography, so that's the the same as average Joe EU saying we have the best education, health system, blah blah blah, in the world? And how we do this, that or the other, when it doesn't bare scrutiny?
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Frankly, I am most pissed off my fellow European diplomats and their 'Let's grovel at HIS feet' attitude. They should be concentrating their efforts on other parts of the world.
Politically, I lean Democratic but I also fell Obama could improve in his diplomacy attitude to Europe.
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Break time.
:o)
"National self-identification of people"
Americans - we have real democracy that's why we are most cool!
Japanese - we may be small but then we are the most clever in the world!
Koreans - we may be small but then we are the most hard-working!
Chinese - we may be small but then we are in the biggest q-ty in the world!
British - .. but the whole world speaks our language!
Ukrainians - ... but we are the closest to Europe!
Russians - we have odd "democracy", we are ... lazy, there isn't much of us left, we've got lousy climate, nobody understands us and never did and we'll never own anything but own chains. But then we don't give a,.. about anything!
:o)))))))
In Ukraine of two evils they still somehow managed to chose one.
Western media lately likes to say that there was no difference for Ukrainians between Timoshenko and Janukovich. That's not exactly correct, given that most questions in post-Soviet space are agreed upon in sauna.
Putin was longly thinking who of the two to appoint President of Ukraine and didn't arrive to any conclusion, thinking "Ah, ... ? ... the hell. Let them figure it out themselves." Thus yet another time Ukraine proved to the world her attachment to the ideals of democracy and free will of the people.
:o))))))
Kissed Ivan-tsarevich (a tsar's son) a frog - and she became a princess. Kissed Ivan-tsarevich the princess and she became a frog. Kissed Ivan-tsarevich the frog and she became a princess. Kissed Ivan-tsarevich the princess and she became a frog.
"Hallucinogenic toad" - understood Ivan-tsarevich.
:o))))
On leaving Afghanistan, Soviet troops didn't leave locals any arms.
They didn't know back then that to Afghanistan will come Americans. :o))))))))))))
Medvedev is reading Janukovich's interview to the media, "Ukraine will continue its nearing with NATO".
"That's how he, dog, paid back to the tsar with the over-evil for over-kindness!" - only hardly managed to pronounce Medvedev :o)))))
(old quote from Ivan the Terrible)
A child doesn't get asleep. Wife says to her husband - "Switch him on TV, there Putin is telling a fairy-tale about our exit out of crisis." :o)))))))
I know how they make the result of the super-diets. They take a skinny woman, make a photo. Feed her for half a year with hamburgers. Take a photo.
Russian ostriches at the approaching danger hide their head into a snow-pile.
:o)))))
You can't have everything. Where will you put everything?
Ukrainins' reaction to the statement of Timoshenko to continue the battle until there is arranged the 3rd round of election.
- "And in what serie they'll get married?"
:o))))
year 2012. BBC news.
In the background a desert and shots from the film "Insane Max".
Voice over: Today there will be conducted the 73rd round of the election of the Ukrainian president.
We'll remind you the results of the previous 25 rounds
Timoshenko - 1 voice
Janukovich - 1 voice
Against all - 1 voice, given by the guarantor of the Constitution (president, Joushenko)
Total voted - 3 people.
Results of the previous elections were disputed by the candidate from the political block "BUT". Julia Timoshenko considers that the elections in Eastern Ukraine were conducted with violations and falsified.
We've asked her of her plans for the nearest future. She said she plans to participate in the elections of the US president, the Queen of Great Britain and in case of falsifications will complain to the inter-galaxy government.
:o)))))
I'm on a diet, began losing weight.
- Yes, it can be seen already.
- Oh, really?
- Sure. Hungry shine sparkle, in your eyes. :o)))))
By total failure ended our multiple expeditions to Antarctida!
Recently it became known that the 5 boxes of whiskey left by the English a hundred years ago were not found by us but by the "polyarniki" (polar expedition chaps) from New Zealand... :o(
:o)))))
According to exit polls, Chekhov is still - a great Ukrainian poet.
The EU borderguards wrote a petition to the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, complaining that they have problems with identifying Russians. And demanding that Russians start taking realistic photos for their passports, that is, after they drank something :o))))
On the initiative of Russian parents, to the children economic game "Monopoly" was added a bribe.
Unlike foreign-made cars, a Russian car has a soul, because it doesn't work in the mode "Yes/No" but in the mode "Yes/No/May be/Some time may be yes/Not today, darling " ...:o))
"What to do if you haven't found a pen in the booth for voting?
No problem, you can simply spit against the name of the candidate :o))
In the casting of participants in the world football championship into one group got republics of former Jugoslavia - Khorvatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Makedonia and Montenegro.
- Now, let someone just dare to say that I exist not - said God.
:o)
What's a Russian Roulette the American way?
- That's every launch of shuttle to Int'l Spoace Station!
- And the Russian way?
- That's every launch of Bulava.
From a schoolboy essay" "Stalin was a figure full of contradictions; on one hand he was striving to become the moderator of everything, on the other hand - resisted the creation of internet :o)))
President of Iran announced he will continue to enrich Uranium.
President of the planet Uranium made a return speech, heartily thanking his earthly colleague for understanding and expressing hope for even more fruitful and mutually rewarding cooperation.
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I have a radical solution to this entire issue:
Let's work on providing value to the consumer i.e. citizen in any governmental agency and then maybe government will "represent" an "work for" not against the citizens of each of the countries above.
Funny how that works well in business and is continually quoted to us workers, and yet governments seem to have lost track completely.
I sometimes wonder if the US federal government was wiped out and the EU government the next day, how long would it take for anyone on main street to notice? I'm betting today most folks would say OMG today forget tomorrow, and 10 yrs later noone would see any difference except a significant increase in each country's GDP and halved government expenditure.... what does that say about the "importance" let alone "functionality" of government today???
Isn't it the purpose of government to represent the average citizen and protect and preserve their welfare. None of that in the USA. Not much left in the UK... hmm, where do we go next?
And yes, I'm a Brit in the USA, happy with neither, love the weather here though....{"_"}
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