Greece, the euro and the Nazis
You can often tell the level of strain someone is under when they lash out in a surprise verbal attack.
It is true, too, with countries. This week the Greek Deputy Prime Minister, Theodoros Pangalos, turned on the Germans. Greece had never been adequately compensated for the crimes of Nazi Germany, he said. "They took away the Greek gold that was at the Bank of Greece," he went on. "They took away the Greek money and never gave it back."
What prompted the outburst was German criticism that Greece had been irresponsible with its finances and had faked its accounts. The mood in Germany is hard-set against helping out or bailing out the Greeks.
Mr Pangalos, remembering the Nazi occupation, told the Germans: "they shouldn't complain so much about stealing..."
It is not necessarily the best approach to win support and, not surprisingly, the Germans are furious. Otmar Issing, a former German European Bank executive, said bluntly: "The crisis is made in Greece - it is a result of bad policy." Hans-Werner Sinn, head of the Ifo Institute, echoed the views of many Germans when he said "Greece should never have entered the eurozone".
Even the Greek Prime Minister, George Papandreou, weighed in: "The issue of German World War Two reparations has not been finally settled. We have never given up on our claims." However, he said, he would not raise the issue with the Germans during the current crisis - which begs the question of why his deputy put it in the mix in the first place.
Mr Papandreou was surely right when he went on to say, however, that if we put reparations on the agenda "it would be very easy for people with bad faith to interpret this as a sign of weakness again and that we are looking for an alibi to shirk our responsibilities."
But the mood between the two countries has soured. Greece's oldest consumer group has called for a boycott of German products and stores. They object to a German magazine where the Venus de Milo statue is portrayed as giving the finger to the Greeks which it calls "the cheats in the euro family". The Greeks are offended and the German ambassador was summoned to see the Speaker of the Greek parliament.
The Greeks do not like the tough line being taken by Berlin over a potential bail-out. Yesterday some German banks decided against buying Greek bonds. There is a sense that we may be nearing a decisive moment over whether Greece can raise money to finance its deficit. This week officials from the EU, the European Central Bank and the IMF have been in Athens. Their conclusion is that Greece is likely to fail to meet its targets for reducing the deficit with the austerity measures it has introduced so far.
Today there was a tone of desperation to Papandreou's appeal to the Greek people: "Will we let the country go bankrupt or will we react?" he said. "Will we let the speculators strangle us, or will we take our fate in our hands?"
Next week he will go and visit Angela Merkel. She, of course, will say she supports the stability of the euro, but it is becoming harder for her to persuade the German people that they should use their money to help the Greeks.
Increasingly Germany is becoming the key to the eurozone crisis. It has done well out of the euro. Some countries would now like Berlin to increase its domestic demand, to enable other weaker countries to export to Germany and so kick-start their economies. But Germany will be very reluctant to loosen the tight spending and wage discipline that has served it so well. Politically it is a hard sell to compromise a cautious, responsible economy to help out those who have fudged the books.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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Don't mention the war...
You can only guilt trip someone for so long. After 65 years, that is looking really tired.
Lecturing by someone who represents a government that is as bent as a 9 bob note is not much of a winner either.
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Well said Gavin,
I think it will serve everyone best if Greece left the Eurozone. It is more than obvious by now that the Euro is not working for them. It may also serve them better to change their relation to the EU to something like special status, Israel type agreement.
It looks like the current arrangement does not suit anyone, i.e. the Greeks or the rest of the EU.
For sure they could save money by not having their MEP in Brussels.
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Although I think that the remarks by the Greek Prime Minister are out of place, in face of the arrogance shown by some North Europeans I see it fit to remember that many Southern and Eastern European countries were left to their luck after World War II.
From 1936 to 1939 a fascist dictator named Franco fought a bloody civil war against the democratically elected government of my country, Spain. He achieved victory in part thanks to the help of the Nazis and the Italian Fascists. The governments of all Western Democracies of the time chose not to assist the Spanish Republic and thus failed to stop the spreading of fascism in Europe, leading to the events of the Second World War.
Furthermore, once WWII was over, no one cared to liberate Spain or help in the reconstruction of the country. Instead, a trade blockade was enforced that lasted until 1953 and caused famines and widespread poverty. Of course Spain never got its share of the Marhsall plan and yet, through hard work and commitment to progress, the country managed to overcome difficulties and become what it is today: the World's 10th largest economy with little more than half of the population of Germany.
When deciding how to deal with the problems of Greece, I would kindly advise the citizens of countries like Germany, France or the UK not to forget that once they too received help to regain freedom and rebuild their countries, even if they may not have deserved such help.
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"It has done well out of the euro. Some countries would now like Berlin to increase its domestic demand, to enable other weaker countries to export to Germany and so kick-start their economies. But Germany will be very reluctant to loosen the tight spending and wage discipline that has served it so well."
Served it so well? Maybe, but only seen from the outside. Do you know how many millions of poor live in this country? Did you know that millions in this society work 8-9 hours a day and at the end of the month they get 600, 700, maybe 900-1000 Euros for hard work all day 24 days a month? Increase it's domestic demand, yes but when 10-20% of the population are already classified as poor and this figure is still rising, how should they buy anything? If Germany is doing so well, this leads to the question "What is Germany?". Is Germany only Mercedes Benz, Bayer, BMW, Siemens and Deutsche Bank, or is Germany a society of 82 million people in which more and more live in poor conditions? It would be a start to introduce a minimum wage but this could harm our economy. It's obvious who are the powerful in this country. Democracy? Nice try!
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@ Gavin Hewitt
"There is a sense that we may be nearing a decisive moment over whether Greece can raise money to finance its deficit"
What do you mean here? Through the markets? Through the Eurozone group? Through the IMF?
Or simply through no one like Iceland?
I don't understand it, sorry!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
70 years ago or 170 years ago is not the issue the issue is exactly as put by our prime minister (who is a moderate) and it is supported by 15 million Greeks (in Greece and abroad): "The issue of German World War Two reparations has not been finally settled. We have never given up on our claims." This includes the gold of the Greek National Bank taken as a loan and never given back (this is stealing in my book) and compensation for the numerous atrocities and catastropies. Of course the current crisis does not have to do with this. But if we are to be provoked by insults generalising against the whole Greek people it is only natural that we will remind them of what is actually owed to us. I am amazed that you do not get it.
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When the fingers start pointing at each other in unbridled rage, the voices get louder and shriller, and ancient animosities are thrown up like they happened yesterday, you know the end is in sight. The EU is coming apart at the seams.
As I said in previous postings, the powers that be in the EU in general and Germany's government in particular is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't dilemma whose consequences could collapse much of the economies of Europe. If they bail out Greece, not only do they damage their own economy and now more than ever invite the wrath of their cash strapped taxpaying voters to kick them out of government, they open the door to doing the same for the rest of the PIIGS. It's a bottomless financial pit they'd be jumping into. But if they don't and allow Greece to default, they risk the collapse of the Euro on financial markets all over the world. Even if that doesn't happen, the difference between what Greece will have to pay out in short term interest rates to lenders just to function and avoid falling into the chaos of anarchy that government collapse would bring and what Germany would have to pay to borrowers invites arbitrage that will play them off against each other until the Euro fails by that mechanism. That unless Germany's interest rates soar to equal Greece's crushing its economy and ending its already feeble recovery. Europe's only hope is to somehow trick China into joining the EU so that it can pay for Europe's folly. By comparison, President Obama's problems are a tempest in a teapot.
Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive
Europe has become the world's biggest fraud, not only in the eyes of the rest of the world but it has convinced itself of its own scam. That is without doubt the most dangerous mistake con men can make, believing their own lies.
Why aren't those who convinced Europeans to engineer this mess being questioned about how to get out of it? At least the diversion of seeing these people squirm might bring some comic relief. One of the original architects of the EU, a Belgian guy whose name I forgot said the problem was that Europe isn't integrated enough. Not integrated enough? How much more integrated does it have to get when one of the smallest dominos can fall and take down all of the rest of them with it?
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Heartless Artless;
"I think it will serve everyone best if Greece left the Eurozone."
Not the Greeks. Why should they leave? Being in the Eurozone they can hold those who persuaded them to join hostage by extorting money out of them with the threat that if they don't pay up, the entire Eurozone currency and the attached economies will collapse. On their own they are helpless. Were I in the Greek government, I'd tell the EU to either pay up or let the chips fall where they may and whatever happens, happens. The time to have considered all this was when Greece was first invited to join. It's a little late now to think of what a mistake it was. The EU has no mechanism for kicking Greece out. Should they try to invent one and impliment it, the money markets will have taken their toll long before the legal process to cut Greece loose could be implimented.
This brings up a point about Europe I've made over and over again. It does whatever makes it feel good at any given moment and rationalizes it one way or another with no real hard look at what the future will likely bring. When the insanity of it is manifested in inevitable consequences, it never blames itself, it alway looks for an outside scapegoat to blame. The EU as a duty free trade pact was a good idea. Morphing it into a nascent superstate incorporating most of Europe was sheer lunacy. Now this house of cards is coming apart.
All the kings horses and all the kings men
Couldn't put the EUSSR back together again
In the future you will hear European counterparts of Vladimir Putin lament that the breakup of the EUSSR was the worst thing that ever happened. Any objective analysis of it shows that the catastrophe was its creation, the rest being merely the inevitable result.
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"The issue of German World War Two reparations has not been finally settled. We have never given up on our claims."
Sounds like it is an issue that is very much in dispute to me. I do not know who is in the right here. However I do know that you should not insult the people you want to get a big wad of cash out of....especially as the head of a creative accounting government. ^^
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@ vassilis:
Who insulted whom?
It was a German weekly newspaper called Focus, not the chancelor, that insulted the greek government, not the greek people. No need to declare war on Germany because of that, don't you think?
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#1
I think their new government claims to be the honest that told everyone of the fact the previous government was cooking the books.
It was not Eurostat that told the real story!!
never the less I agree with you and I said previously what next? Turkey paying them war debt also, then the crusaders for sacking Instabul/Konstantinopole and then the Spartans paying the Athenians for war damage also.
But having said I could also god for the part that Germans in particular should not generalse and call a whole nation "Betruger" Fraudsters, they don't have a good history when it comes to some of them generalising about nationalities:))
So best everyone cools down and looks at the facts, that are nothing like what the emotional public in both countries believe them to be.
The facts are Greeks have to work hard to pay their debts, the Germans have been asked by anyone to had over money, so I don't know what both nations are worked up about???
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Hi MA2,
Well, you should know better than that.
In times of hardships, the temptation is high to deflect criticism through populism or fantastic claims.
The rednecks tea-partying are in the same league as the disgruntled who still want to refight the last war they liked. Anyway, those generations are passing slowly away.
In addition, you have international media who find it money-making by dramatizing events or reporting from a very biased angle. I'm sure Mr Hewitt is only doing what his editorial line is asking of him, but that's sloppy journalism nonetheless.
The english (UK really ?) press is fascinated by the posmall potential that the Eurozone could break-up. That's classic Schadenfreude in regards to their own finances, but that won't happen.
What's needed for the Greek government is time to reform its State institutions, while markets regain their composure in evaluating Greek credit-worthiness hysteria-free. Corporatists interests (political, business, unions ...) are dead-set against letting the Greek people go free from their clutches.
Wartimes claims are just the latest examples in how to redirect energies from modernizing Greek society back to infighting. And in itself, it also shows the desesperation of those self-serving interests into preserving the status-quo.
MA2, you made the claims that the Eurozone or the EU were breaking up.
It's not, though this crisis is good testing ground.
You claimed of the Euro devaluating by 70% in a day, or a week. Even altogether. It didn't happen either.
Well, you made those claims for so long, good times or bad times, that I don't expect you to change even when facts and events go against your "rationales".
Best regards,
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How much gold is involved? How much is it worth in today's dollars? How much is Greece's debt by comparison. At $1000 an ounce in round numbers, about the current market price of gold, it would take one million ounces to equal one billion dollars. As I recall isn't Greece's debt coming due in May about 15 billion dollars? It's its total debt something like 420 billion dollars? Is Greece accusing Nazi Germany of having stolen one million ounces of gold?
Anyway, the repository for all stolen Nazi Booty besides wealthy Germans is probably Switzerland where most of it is. Greece could join Lybia in its jihad against Switzerland if the Swiss won't give it up.
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Shouldn't the Greeks also be paying out to victims for the damages done by Alexander the Great's conquests? Now let's see, 10,000 drachmas at 4% interest for 2500 years is....
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It is so sad to see a Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister publicly graduate the Nigel Farrage school of political charm.
Who does this help?
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@Tortilein
The Focus issue contained articles who had made gross generalisations and reported in detail in the Greek media. Plus the cover which was considered as an insult to ancient Greek civilisation (belonging to the world, not only to modern Greece but Greeks rightly or wrongly are very sensitive to these symbols) has generated a public outburst. Very counterproductive when people have to be persuaded to do sacrifices (for the blunders of some bad politicians with some unregulated banks etc. the working people had no idea of these).
However, I understand your general point. Well taken. Pompous rhetoric and provocations should stop and think and act carefully on how we resolve the whole mess (it is difficult I know, the common currency has a role in the whole mess). I repeat Greek bashing does not help (if you want to continue be my guest but reminds me of a play ground with bullies). The people (who are to pay for this one way or the other) are not to be blamed. It is counterproductive. It is not their fault.
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Bucky;
"What's needed for the Greek government is time to reform its State institutions, while markets regain their composure in evaluating Greek credit-worthiness hysteria-free."
How much more time? How much time have they had so far, a few thousand years? How much longer will it take? They have until May when the next installment on the debt is either paid or the bomb goes off.
Markets don't regain composure. They run towards something that looks good, away from something that looks bad. If one thing looks better than another, then they will run towards that. Right now the best case you can make for the Eurozone is that things look uncertain but less than optimistic. Once the flight to quality begins, it will happen quickly. I said what would happen, not when. If I were better at market timing, I'd be much richer. I always buy and sell the right things for the right reasons at the wrong time.
I predict when the Euro begins to tumble, the knee jerk reaction of the EUCB will be to defend it by selling foreign currency, mostly US dollars to buy Euros. This will push the US dollar down for awhile. That will be a perfect buying opportunity for speculators to sell Euros to buy dollars. The amount of money the speculators have to play with dwarfs all of the resources of the world's central banks combined. When the dust settles, the Euro won't be worth mud. Did I say 70%? I might have just been too cautious.
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Mickalus;
"It is so sad to see a Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister publicly graduate the Nigel Farrage school of political charm."
I'm thinking about writing a rebuttal to Dale Carnegie's classic book "I'm Okay, You're Okay" called "I'm Okay, You Stink!" :-)
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Don't you love it ? and it's only one of the many debt-financing issues facing the US.
That should help people put Greece problems into perspective, especially in regards to the myopic (short-termist ?) and self-serving (greedy ?) attitude of the "markets"(Goldman Sachs and US hedge funds ?).
"HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) -- States may be forced to reduce benefits, raise taxes or slash government services to address a $1 trillion funding shortfall in public sector retirement benefits, according to a new study that warns of even more debilitating costs if immediate action isn't taken.
The Pew Center on the States released a survey Thursday of state-administered pension plans, retiree health care and other post-employment benefits in all 50 states that blamed a decade's worth of policy decisions for leaving them shortchanged.
As of 2008, states had $2.4 trillion to meet $3.4 trillion in promised pension, health care and other post-retirement benefits, according to the report.
The true gap may even be wider, because the study did not account for the full impact of investment losses in late 2008, during the stock market downturn, and because many plans employ multiyear smoothing techniques to lessen the effect of a single year's losses."
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Study-States-must-fill-1-apf-2540769337.html?x=0
hmm ? and you are all getting pumped up over €25 billion refinancing ?
Best regards,
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17. At 4:50pm on 26 Feb 2010, vassilis wrote:
"I repeat Greek bashing does not help (if you want to continue be my guest but reminds me of a play ground with bullies). The people (who are to pay for this one way or the other) are not to be blamed. It is counterproductive. It is not their fault."
Well said, Vassilis. This is also true of Germany.
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The WWII reparations is not a new issue. We have been reading about developments in this issue in newspapers for many many years (as long ago as I can remember). I have not been following in detail all the legal battles but it is pursued legally (e.g. there are legal proceedings and decisions in Greek courts I think for compensations on atrocities) mainly by private organisations in Greece (I think). Greek governments attitude has always been what our PM said (it is not new). In a nutshell: We are recognising there are outstanding issues, Germany never compensated for these, We do not give up on these claims (not said: but currently Germany refuses to compensate and we do not want to press and anger them). So, the whole thing has gone on for 65 years. I do not know the legal implications but I assure you that it is not new. On amounts. For example I am looking at Greek sites with estimates who say aboyt 70m Euros in present day for the 'loan' but I do not know for sure if it covers the crimes issue. Thus, the bottom line is that it is not new and not invented because of the current crisis and at some point it has to be settled one way or the other. I repeat nothing to do with the current crisis.
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19. At 5:03pm on 26 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Mickalus;
"It is so sad to see a Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister publicly graduate the Nigel Farrage school of political charm."
I'm thinking about writing a rebuttal to Dale Carnegie's classic book "I'm Okay, You're Okay" called "I'm Okay, You Stink!" :-)
That's a bit personal...
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OK I have another deadline so would the interesting people here please stop posting comments? It's very distracting.
Having said that, I'm disappointed at the exchange between German and Greek politicians. (I couldn't care less about what is said in the media; glossy magazine salesmen's opinions do not interest me.) I hope Greece doesn't fall to the level of that idiot Kaczinski in Poland who argued that Poland deserves more voting rights in the EU because its population would have been much larger if the Germans hadn't killed so many in WW2.
What I'd like to see is an estimate of how much money Greece has got out of the EU over the years as opposed to how much it has put in. I believe a lot more has come in than gone out. And much of that is German taxpayers' money. And Germany has proffered that money as general compensation for its war deeds. But this cannot go on forever - third generation (and counting) Germans should not be held responsible for their grandparents' deeds.
I think almost all Germans would love to undo WW2 (Germans suffered immeasurably for it too), but history does not offer an Undo button and so we can only move on. Screaming about events of 65 years ago is pointless; it's the preserve of those who have no further arguments.
I love Greece and Greeks and I hope the EU does come to its aid, even financially. But this opens a can of worms that is not really Greece's responsibility. What happens if Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy and (soon) the UK start to falter? Germany can't prop them all up. I think this is the real reason Germany is reluctant to help Greece, not because of any belief that they are "lazy southern Europeans".
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Mickalus;
"That's a bit personal"
It wasn't directed at you specifically but if you want to take it that way, I won't try to stop you.
There is a naive view among liberal minded people that all conflicts can be settled peacefully to both sides satisfaction if not to their complete satisfaction. It's a view they hold on to tenaciously until someone disagrees with them about something the find very important and will not make any concessions to them. At that point liberals become as adamant and intransigent as anyone else.
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IShouldBeTheEditorAndRuleTheWorld;
"OK I have another deadline so would the interesting people here please stop posting comments? It's very distracting."
I'll just bet you're German. No? If not you could have fooled me.
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From http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3395.htm
Greece has been a major net beneficiary of the EU budget; in 2007, EU transfers accounted for 3.8% of GDP....
EU transfers to Greece continued with approximately $24 billion in structural funds for the period 2000-2006. The same level of EU funding, $24 billion, has been allocated for Greece for 2007-2013. These funds contribute significantly to Greece's current accounts balance and further reduce the state budget deficit....
And from http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/bibliographies/nazi-gold.html:
Note: Approximately 80% of the gold claimed by Greece after WWII was restituted; the rest represented looted private holdings with incomplete claims. The author notes other claims that have not been met including silver, an imposed loan to Nazi Germany.
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My understanding (I say this very cautiously because I do not know all the facts) is that in 1946 or so Germany paid reparations to other countries but not to Greece. And later in the 60s paid some of it to Greece. Legally, several issues were left outstanding one way or the other. All Greek governments have held the same position. The money Greece got from EU has nothing to do with reparations as the current Greek debt (and mess) has nothing to do with the reparations.
@Mickalus
Absolutely for Germany also. I honestly think that it is unfair for the German tax payer to pay for this. But, I do not think that any official asked for money from Germany. I've read numerous times Greek PM saying this. However, we certaily need a loan (to gain time for serious reforms, and our friends Germans and fellow europeans please help us constructively with these because we do not trust our politicians) at a reasonable rate (otherwise we won't be able to pay it back).
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25. At 5:33pm on 26 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"There is a naive view among liberal minded people that all conflicts can be settled peacefully to both sides satisfaction if not to their complete satisfaction. It's a view they hold on to tenaciously until someone disagrees with them about something the find very important and will not make any concessions to them. At that point liberals become as adamant and intransigent as anyone else."
And to which of my naive views does this pertain?
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I'm not German. Fooling you is exceptionally easy.
Now stop distracting me. I'm supposed to be working. If I'm late it's your fault.
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@ vassilis:
"It is not their fault."
You are absolutly right. This whole crisis, the banks all over the world, the crisis in Greece, that's not the ordinary people's fault. When Siemens or german banks are part of the corruption in Greece and I have no problem to imagine that they are, it's not the fault of us ordinary germans. When greek government is lousy it is not the fault of ordinary greeks. When a german newspaper insults greek civilisation, that's not our fault. To be honest, I didn't even know they did until I read about it here in this forum as I don't consider Focus to be a highlight of serious press and don't read it.
The same with our banks here. For years they claimed that they were private cooperations and that the money they made is theirs, that the taxes they had to pay were to high bla bla. But when they get into problems it is the taxpayer's responsibility to pay for their faults. Profits were private, debts are socialised, no fun at all this capitalism casino, mainly because the politicians told you for years that there was no money for free education, for the health system, for the poor, for nothing.
I'm half colombian as my mother is from Colombia. I visit my relatives there every year for two month. Life there for the poorest got worse since the crisis started and I didn't even imagine that it could get any worse. It is the same all over the world, ordinary people bleed for the greed of the banks and the economy. People who lived under communism were enslaved but we are no less slaves of the money.
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Can we give Greece a rest for a month or two, nothings changed...
I very much doubt anything will really change other than Greece very slowly climbing out of the hole it has dug itself.
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To MarcusAureliusII (18):
Euro-Zone Trade Surplus Grew in December
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703444804575070850915765426.html
U.S. dollar collapse could devastate economy: book
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5AN5AP20091124
Let me explain. Eurozone economies produce products and services that have more value than products and services that it imports. In essence there is more money coming in that floating out.
Let me also explain. In the USA the Federal Reserve has kept interest rates in artificially low rate for too long, just listen to notes that Volcker has made. In the USA Fed has also printed dollars as if there was no tomorrow, to finance the ballooning US Federal state debt and to bump incredible amount of dollars to banks, to financial institutions, to different industries etc...
You know what happens when you print money, with a delay money starts to decrease its purchasing power, it looses value, in short you have inflation. In the Eurozone inflation just increased to 1%, now remember that ECB has had higher interest rates, has pumped much less money to economy, and hasn't done printing of money. Now what do you think US inflation figures will be in medium term... Let me tell you they are going to be pretty high, so high that in 2012 the exchange rate of Euro vs. Dollar could be 1e to 2 to 3 USd, that is the cost of printing money.
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If Greece does not get such a loan quickly it will simply default. I think that if this is the plan of other Europeans to allow Greece default, it should be said quickly so that Greece goes to IMF. There is no point protracting this for any longer.
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@ Ishouldbetheeditor:
"third generation (and counting) Germans should not be held responsible for their grandparents' deeds."
You understand that it is important on this issue to be exact. I'm 29 years old, my grandparents were 3-8 years old during the second world war. So those in my family who were adults at that time were my grandgrandparents and my grandgrandgrandparents. I didn't even know them as they all died long before I was born, they may rest in peace.^^ But the main point here is that for my generation this war is so much out of any conscience than probably Napoleon is for young generations in France or Stalin for the young ones in Russia.
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@Tortilein
I am a bit older than you. I have heard detailed accounts from my grandparents. Greece was too poor and devastated to build again quickly (to our misery a brutal civil war came immediately afterwards). I assure you WWII lives very well in the collective memory. 65 years in the Greek mind is like yesterday.
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@ Tortilein
Your comment is pertinent. I actually nearly did type great-grandparents. Even I am off on how much time has past!
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@Tortilein
I agree. Whole system is full of injustice especially to the hard working people. Casino capitalism, speculators, markets do not work for the benefit of the people but for bankers and inept politicians. We need a serious reform of current capitalism, at least move away from neoliberal policies and regulate financial institutions much more closely. However, I am pesimistic because I do not see anything serious in this direction. It seems to me that the whole problem is restricted to Greek irresponsibility and dodgy accounts (I strongly suspect taht other fellow European countries have done also very 'creative accounting'). If this is the issue, the solution is easy, let Greece default and count its ruins (it's 2% of EU economy, 10 m people, who cares) while the rest of you enjoy your life, your money and your responsible and prudent governemnts. Something tells me though that there are problems beyond Greece....
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ChrisArta
Re #2
"..Greece leave EUro... special status with EU.."
You have got to be joking!?
After every conniving, duplicitous, double-dealing, anti-democratic action by the EU since Maastricht 1992 you still believe a Nation would be allowed to quit the miraculous, perfect conception that is the supra-national one-size-fits-all European Union!
Bless you!
It is nice to know there are still people out there upon whom political reality has made no impression whatsoever.
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It's a shame it took ten years and a huge financial crisis for the so called experts to say Greece should never have joined the Euro. Tough. When things were going well in Euroland no on batted an eyelid. No one bothered to make sure Greece would be able to join the Euro without suffering financially. The pro-EMU crowd merely wanted the Euro to replace all national currencies at any cost. Now the chicken have come to roost and they're running scared. I'm afraid the whole Eurozone will have to suffer financially and huge sacrifices will have to be made by all Eurozone countries in order to get out of this mess. A good start would be for the Euro to collapse and for national currencies to be brought back. This would be particularly good for Portugal as it would increase our economy's competitiveness. Sorry but the good times are gone. Now face the music!
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@vassilis
Whenever the UK has a political disagreement with Germany, the nonsense UK tabloids always, always bring up the war. Eg, Tony Blair once said something slighly nice about the euro, and next day were cartoons of him with a swastika armband. A serious UK newspaper asked some Germans why they think this might be. One cabinet minister's reply was: "Because winning the war was the last successful event the UK has enjoyed." The great thing is - he's right.
I think there's more to modern Greece than WW2, which is why this stolen gold saga is so sad.
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Vassili, if you want to know why Germany feels they paid war reparations and we don't please google the name Max Merten. It's another black page in our (and maybe Germany's) post WW2 history.
Anyway, I completely agree with Tortilein here. It is a bank made mess and we all get to pay their bill. No need for Greeks blaming Germans and vice versa or even Brits to gloat over our problems. You have your own bank made mess to pay.
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@ Vassilis:
My grandparents also told me how life was during the war and right after it. They were little children, they were starving, they had to walk to school in winter without shoes etc. They lived in the countryside between Frankfurt and Cologne and when these cities were bombed thousands who lost their homes went to the countryside as the allies didn't drop bombs there. They had to share their house and the nothing they had with people they didn't even know. That Nazi regime was the elite of society even if they called themselves "party of the working class". I guess Goebbel's children weren't starving. The point is that the Nazis didn't give a damn for anyone but themselves and I know that people throughout Europe had to suffer because of them including the Germans themselves. We remember the deaths among the jews, the Russians, the Polish and of course also among the Greeks, but the millions of disabled, homosexuals, social democrats and communists that also died were also German. Germany also lost many lives and it's always and everywhere the same, the innocent are always those who suffer the most. By the way, sorry for the family members you lost even if I'm not responsible.
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Mr Hewitt I am really not very satisfied with the way you gave so much value to the saying of Mr. Pangalos. Everyone in Greece knows he is just an old fat guy that likes to swear and say whatever - and while in the past his sayings were funny, lately he was seen negatively even among party members.
The issue of the WWII reparations is still open, that is a fact no matter if Germans want to forget it. And Germans cannot say that "aaahhh to many years passed, its over now..." just because Greeks were busy fighting the civil war imposed upon them by British (UK conributors here might be very shocked to hear so but lets face reality: in Balkans it was the British that gave rise to the communists for no other reason than divide and conquer - initially the patriotic movements had much more success against the Germans). In fact it was British and Americans that were more negatively positioned to Germany giving reparations to Greece and returning their gold - especially if one considers where went that gold (into the US, USSR and British reserves!).
BUT fellow Greeks should think it otherwise: Germans were an invader that went in to loot, nothing new under the sun. How then should we treat all those inner looters? The few German collaborators that became overly rich (and were then protected by the British when Nazis left and British came in while nobody had asked them to do so?). How should we treat the communists that in order to get to power they would not hesitate to give Macedonia and Thrace to Bulgarians and Jugoslavians even killing all of its Greek population if needed? How should we treat people that served the British in the civil war intensifying the political hatred and commiting crimes giving an excuse to the communists and sending them packets of new fighters to continue the civil war for 5 years.
Did we solve the above to have a face to demand from Germany the rest?
Of course the issue of reparations is still open but it simply has little to do with the current crisis.
So please keep it out. Its a whole different issue and should be treated some other time. Not now.
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Christos is dead right. Is it too much to ask that after we have bailed out the banks, that we can tax their profits dramatically in the future? Since they have proven that there is no such thing as a "free market economy", they should be willing to become a boon on society, rather than a bane.
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@Christos
Thanks, interesting reading, there are clearly outstanding issues, but probably they have to be resolved at another occasion.
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39. At 6:47pm on 26 Feb 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
"ChrisArta
Re #2
"..Greece leave EUro... special status with EU.."
You have got to be joking!?
After every conniving, duplicitous, double-dealing, anti-democratic action by the EU since Maastricht 1992 you still believe a Nation would be allowed to quit the miraculous, perfect conception that is the supra-national one-size-fits-all European Union!
Bless you!
It is nice to know there are still people out there upon whom political reality has made no impression whatsoever."
LOL cool_brush_work - truly you're a paragon of consistency in a rapidly changing world.
Historically of course, you're not entirely correct. Greenland, a goodly chunk of Denmark, left the EU - though before Maastricht. No armies sent, no coups engineered in Godthab. Just bye.
Now I expect you'll collapse in paroxysms, a la Bulgaria.
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@Tortilein
Thanks, I understand. Of course the present day Germans have nothing to do with that period and that's why (in my opinion) the reparation issue (if unsettled) has more moral than financial dimension. Let's only hope that our politicians can have a rational discussion and find a solution. I've heard Greek PM is to visit Berlin after invitation from Chancellor Merkel on 5th March and President Obama invited him to US for 9th March. These could be significant. Let's try to see this as an opportunity to straighten our practices and implement much needed reforms.
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How far should people go back when making such assessments. There are many countries subjected to unfair invasion and taxes by ancient Greece and maybe they should make such claims as well. I think most of the Nazi's are dead.
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Just for the record, correction in 22. Instead of 70m Euros should be 70 billion Euros.
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So Pangalos says the Nazis took the gold of the Bank of Greece? Then why is the story on the Bank's website different? Isn't journalism about cross-checking facts anymore, in particular since Pangalos is not a newcomer to strong statements about Germany? Just a sideshow, really. Why not report more about efforts to control the bankers?
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Mickalus
Re #47
No need for any guffaws by me: The idea of Greenland, closer to Canada and the N. Pole than continental Europe, being in the EU post-Maastricht says it all.
Now of course, had it been Denmark that wanted to quit the overmighty, venal, corrupt, anti-democratic EU then I am quite sure a very different constitutional scenario would have unfolded at the behest of Paris-Berlin-Brussels.
I will concede I am an unreconstructed advocate of independent, individual, sovereign States.
Those, such as yourself, who hanker after the bright lights of 'unification' are in my opinion deluded and fascinated by the glare of so many EU beams of political 'son et lumiere'!
Little realising such shows are narratives of 'History': In this Brussels venture it is of the very worst sort in which Citizens' hard won Rights and Responsibilities are betrayed to the interests of 'Big-Business/Big-Government'.
A familiar tale of woe, but one EUropeans seem set upon repeating ad infinitum!
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@CBW
As a non UK citizen (subject ?), I'm really looking forward for a Tory (UKIP ?) premiership.
That should prove to be very interesting times to watch the UK giggling around. And a bitter reality check on many people too.
Best regards,
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47.
Despite what you might think, I actually appreciate your vision of independent, individual, sovereign states. I simply think that a globalised world, unless the states in question are behemoths, the rest of us need to learn to work together to survive. For that to work, it requires a an overarching process.
I'm actually quite wary of unification - centuries away at best - but I think federation has definite merit and appeal, along Swiss or Canadian lines, enough appeal to suggest that it at least be tried.
I'm also sure you'll accept that "Citizens' hard won Rights and Responsibilities are betrayed to the interests of 'Big-Business/Big-Government'." is a feature of all forms of organised government, regardless of dependence status, sovereign or suzereign.
And I've been around the block enough to know a sound and light show when I hear one, whoever tries to present one to me.
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JukaBoxa;
Part of what you say is true. The US government has spent far more money than it has and will at some point have to print a ton of currency to pay off those debts when they come due. There are two problems as I see it, they have not taken any measures to see to it that this money stays in the US to buy goods and services that would create American jobs, help American businesses, serve American interests and they haven't printed nearly enough of it soon enough. They need to print an amount approximately equal to the difference between what was assets were perceived to be worth before the crisis and what they are perceived to be worth now, IMO about 5 to 10 trillion. Neither this new debt nor the old one can be paid back by additional taxes because that would choke off the recovery it is trying to foster. The solution is to print it. As you said, this would cause the US dollar to be sharply devalued, inflation and interest rates to soar, and the buying power of the US dollar to diminish sharply on both domestic and international markets. However, this would achieve the goal of being able to rapidly pay off old expensive debt and the new money would be available much more easily. That the US government would have to cut back substantially on its spending would be very good news in the eyes of many Americans who think it is much too big, too powerful, to consuming of wealth already. No area would be exempt. All that fat in those bills we call pork Congress passes would have to go.
The question is timing. If the inflation comes after the Euro and Europe collapses, then Europe will not recover because those structures such as private companies which generate its wealth will be bankrupt already. If that comes after, then Europe will have no choice but to devalue immediately as well or it will be priced out of the American market for its goods, an important factor in an export driven eoconomy where America is an important buyer of its exports.
All of this is about the financial crisis. It does nothing to address the structural problem of EU economies which spend far too much on their lavish social safety nets than the value of what they produce is worth on the world market. As an inherently incoherent incompatable collection of overindulgent societies who will not accept that they cannot live as well as they have they are fated for bankruptcy one way or the other. The only thing the current crisis did was to accelerate the inevitable.
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So far, you have been on the wrong side of argument.
Dreaming what isn't there, and hyperboling what doesn't happen.
Only time will tell, MA2.
Best regards,
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Starbuck11
Re #53
You, I and many may well find it all amusing: A Nation, like anything else, generally gets the Government it deserves, but UK/England is particularly poorly served at the present time by the pigmy body-politic at Westminster.
The only comfort is that all Europe seems to be in much the same plight: Where are the Brandt, De Gaulle etc.? Statesman Leadership is in such short supply and of such impoverished intellectual quality von Rompuy makes Berlusconi and Merkel seem almost dynamic!
I loathe and despise almost every aspect of Dave 'whats my policy today?' Cameron and his Conservative Party.
I have never voted for that Party and cannot imagine ever doing so unless Cameron were to pledge a Referendum on UK/England withdrawal from the EU - - of course, we already know from the Lisbon debacle DC's interpretation of a promise is as reliable as the proverbial fart in a calendar - - so, it is a foregone conclusion they wont be getting my Vote next General Election!
All that said, I cannot find any reason to support 'Jock' Brown & NuLab: A PM foisted on the UK/England by the numpty NuLab MPs who catastrophically for them, much like their Expense claims, failed to work out the figures and concluded 49,000,000 English Citizens in the 21st Century of a 'Devolved' UK would not resent someone from North of the border in situ at No.10! Never mind Brown's actual worse than useless econmic 'prudence'!
Which leaves Clegg and the Lib Dems, UKIP, Greens, BNP, Socialist Workers etc. and/or none of the above.
Looks like it will be 'none of the above' and a spoiled Ballot paper!
PS: It is by no means certain Cameron and the Cons. Party will win in June: He is a very poor judge of issues and is being found out more with each passing month as the election approaches. UK/England has 3 National Assemblies and only the English have no State Parliament of their own and it may be their antipathy to all the major Parties will bring about a 'hung' Parliament. This could cause a year or 3 of political instability that may result in 1 of the major Parties going for broke and promising the EU Membership Referendum as the key to unlocking Majority success at the Ballot box - - we shall see - - I certainly hope so.
PPS: Though I make no claim that the EU Vote will be for withdrawal - - I believe it will be a very close run thing. At least it will finally 'Democratically' settle the issue one way or the other.
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@MarcusAureliusII,
My friend, try re-reading your posts but please perform a small find&replace string. Replace "Greece" with "USA" and "Germany" with "China". Don't tell me that Greece cannot devalue in the euro, because last time I checked yuan is devaluing just as fast as the dollar. You are in the same situation as drachma and DM.
At least in Greece, we try to reform.
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1. At 2:33pm on 26 Feb 2010, Freeman wrote:
Don't mention the war...
You can only guilt trip someone for so long. After 65 years, that is looking really tired.
===========
I bet Socialists will still be blaming Thatcher in 65 years ;-)
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When are you people gonna get it!
First believe me that all Greeks 100% believe that their political system is corrupted, its not news for the Greeks and they are not insulted for that. There are yearly reports that the most corrupted countries in the Eurozone is Greece and Italy.
Second, everybody believes in Greece that the financial situation is beacuse of wrong economic decisions over the last 20years. They knwo is their fault.
Third, the issue of the Nazis came up, when not only the Focus magazine but also German officials feed up a holistic opinion upon the Greeks. You have to make a distincion why the Greeks raised issues of the past. They are not so naive, to respond in critics about the financial situation and the corrupted politics, with a way of raising issues of the past. What are you thinking that Greeks are stupid? No ! There are other things in the psycology of these nation that other people in Europe fail to understand.
The Greeks reacted like this because:
The German officials and Mass Media started a critic of putting all the Greek nation into a stream of corruption and a nation of liars. Greeks know better than everyone that their politicians are corrupted and in the certain occasion much more than the Germans, but this does not mean they are going to accept this provocatoric critic upon their nation. Actually the raise of the Past is a dose of Irony by the Greeks to the Germans, like they want to say that "oh we are all liars and corrupted? Look who is talking the nation who killed 12% of our population, who burned more than 2,500 villages, , who stole our gold and ancient monuments?" Is it fair to call killers a hole nation because of their bluddy past? No! That is the irony! Greeks never in their History ever went so close to that... So yes maybe Greece is a nation with corrupted politics but was never a country of Genocides, of 40,000,000 deaths... Is that related to the current problem? No!!! By all means No! But it is related to the arrogant critic against a nation , not an administration. The Greeks don't hate Germans, they don't even refer to the past and get angry with the Germans, with the Turks yes they get ungry, but not with the Germans...This doesnt mean that they forget that Greece had the largest casualties in WW2 per population analogy of course and is one of the only nations that was not compensated for that.
Now to the current issue:
A lot of people in Europe think that Greeks are lazy. Maybe they confused the Greek labor force with the Greek public servants which are feeded years with political favors . Just look the stats after Greece entered the Eurozone and you will see that Greeks work every week more than the Dutch, the Germans and a lot other Europeans.
I work and live in New York, yes in USA, go and see what lazy means when you're dealing there with the public administration. In Greece the 70% of the hard working people and taxpapers are paying the rest 30%, which yes are lazy people. The Question that rises is why Greece does so poor with its economics?
1st Major Reason
Question your selfs, who in The Eurozone or the rest European Union has a neighbor country 7 times bigger, that is threatening daily is independence, with war threats, a military invasion (see the recent truths that came up with the plan of Turkish generals for military coup in Turkey and war with Greece). Do you know how many billions Greece has to spend only for retaining a huge army and buy military equipment? And who are they buying from? Germany didnt know when there were bilateral agreements to sell weapons to Greece and hide the numbers from the deficit, and put it directly to the debt? Of course they did. Sometimes I wonder what is this Union, every body thinks for his national interest, how do they think this is going to work? Which country in Europe today has 30,000 invasion troops illegaly in its territory and is devided like old Germany...Cyprus and who protects Cyprus with everything today? Greece ! Thanks Europe for your assistanse to buy guns and grow our debt and deficit more! Thanks for protecting your borders! What a synergy in this European Union, I am amazed! There are states in US which are in a worse fiscal situation than Greece, but they have synergy, and the dollar retains its power!!
2) Greeks didnt mature as much as a society like the rest of the Western Europe, Why? Cause when there was renaissance in Europe, Greeks were slaves, Greece became a country as it is in 1922, and they saved Europes ass thousands of times in the past and they didnt stop fighting wars because they happend to be in the croosroad where everybody likes to pass. Have they been betrayed by Europe in the past? Yes they have. DO they know that? Yes they do!! Do they do self criticism? Yes they do! Its not an easy thing to overpass habbits inherited years and years under slavery! Habbits like political favors(Turkish word used in Greece=Rousfeti) and people linking their future and their kids future on the political favor they are promised...
The issue is not so simple, to judge a hole nation easily like that, nor it helps the eurozone in the current situation! Lets see now
Who feeds with their deficit the indutries of the North? The countries of the South Europe.
Is Greece the only country that cooked thier finances? Of course not, Portugal did the same, and Germany did the same as far as i know. Why is Greece attacked by the financial institutions so hard? Wake up! It the weakest tie of the Eurozone, and instead of Europeans having a synergised apporach to deal with the attack against the Euro, they are point fingering!! Enjoy the suicide guys! It is so difficult for this continent to overpass its nationalistic egos that I dont see a bright future unless otherwise...
Even the US congress realised what Goldman Sachs and the rest did, and they initiating right now a examination of these games... Obama called the Greek prime minister in Washington for a "meeting", sleep well Europe , the yankees know what they are doing!!
And last but not least... Nobody asked or said in Greece for bailout and handgiving money!! Don't repeat the same nonsense again nad again, the only thing they asked is to borrow with the same interest rate like the rest of Europe! It is now on the hands of the Greeks and their responsibility to save their fiscal problems, but regardless of succeding or not there is nothing that they can do for saving the Euro zone if the European nations don't see that they must overpass their nationalistic egos...
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Neither Greece nor Germany were forced to join the Euro. Presumably, both countries knew that at some stage the nations with strong economies would be called upon to subsidise the weaker ones. The Euro zone must have made plans for such a situation or was it another case of dreaming the European dream and forgetting reality? (I'm sure that MAII could explain how the US federal government balances California and Mississippi).
Perhaps, now all Europe might realise the importance of evening up the differences in economic strength, levels of corruption and understanding of democracy before rushing into grand plans.
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Germany has paid an awful lot of money into the "EU". Greece has taken an awful lot out. Maybe the German money that Greece has had would pay for the damage done in WWII.
Anybody know?
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An awful lot of Germans holiday in Greece. If the Greeks boycott German goods, the Germans might not go there. It could be very counter productive.
Will German holidaymakers get an unfriendly reception in Greece?
There are tensions between the UK "government" and Iceland. I got a very friendly reception in Iceland.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
Sheep in Wolf's clothing;
"I'm sure that MAII could explain how the US federal government balances California and Mississippi"
I don't know. I'll be watching to see how California especially gets out of the financial cravass it has dug for itself. It has nobody but itself to blame for its mess. In 1978 when Prop 13 was passed by the voters to cut their real estate taxes, the California State Government had a 15 billion dollar surplus in the bank. As of about a year or two ago it had a 40 billion dollar debt. It paid out on average about 2 billion a year more than it took in with no seeming regard for the inevitability of the consequences this would lead to. No more than Argentina had, no more than Washington DC, no more than Europe. But Washington DC has a nuclear option, it can print as much money as it wants to. Should be quite a spectacle when it comes.
Interestingly California has a GDP of around 2 trillion dollars a year with a population of around 33 million people. By way of comparison, Germany has a GDP of around 3.2 to 3.5 trillion with 82 million people.
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From Open Europe:
Meanwhile, in a poll for German newspaper Bild, 67 percent of Germans have said they are against a Greek bailout, and 53 percent said they were in favour of expelling Greece from the eurozone if it poses a danger to the single currency.
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Watch out you STUPID countries (Spain, Turkey, UK, Portugal, Italy and Dubai). One of you could be standing in the same shoes as Greece any day now.
Federal Reserve Chairman, Ben Bernanke has stated that the US central bank is reviewing derivatives contracts that were arranged between Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and the investment banks in Greece.
Ben Bernanke: “We are looking into a number of questions related to Goldman Sachs and other such companies and their derivatives arrangements with Greece.” This statement was made before the Senate Banking Committee in Washington.
Bernanke was responding to a question from Senator Christopher Dodd. Dodd had asked, if there should be limits on the use of credit default swaps to prevent “runs against governments.”
The Federal Reserves’ review reflects an unexpected determination among regulators to look carefully into financial-markets in view of the Greek crisis. The Federal Reserve surely wants to examine the role that investment banks like Goldman Sachs played in helping the country raise off-balance-sheet funding. Wall Street’s largest banks have been criticized by lawmakers for this type of conniving as well as other types - ranging from from pay practices to the key role they may have played in setting off the entire financial crisis.
Goldman Sachs and other investment banks wrote derivative contracts that helped Greece report smaller debt levels. Bernanke: “Obviously, using these instruments in a way that intentionally destabilizes a company or a country is - is counterproductive, and I’m sure the SEC will want to look into that. We’ll certainly be evaluating what we can learn from the activities of the holding companies.”
Goldman Sachs helped Greek officials raise $1B off-balance-sheet funding in 2002 through credit default swaps. The EU knew nothing about this, and perhaps Greece did not know that such nefarious activites would place her future in such financial jeopardy.
The Federal Reserve is gathering information. They are bringing the subject before experts and talking with counterparts in other countries. The Federal Reserve is also looking at the issue of systemic risk. Officials from Goldman and other firms are expected to be called to show how the deals conducted with Greece complied with established risk-management standards and accounting rules, or if they in fact did comply? The SEC is also probing disclosure issues related to the credit swaps.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Feb. 18 it would be a “scandal” if banks helped Greece massage its budget. French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde, speaking on France Inter radio the same day, said that even if the swaps were legal, they probably contributed to instability.
There is much complex investigation to be done, especially with the 5 - 10 STUPID countries that dealt with investment banks using derivatives or credit default swaps, or CDOs. Using these financial vehicles is speculation in the market (aka gambling). There is no financial regulation, almost invisible audit trails, and convoluted batching of debt.
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@57 CBW
That's for sure.
And also why the election is likely to satisfy very few voters, and anger a lot more.
But as to what the next Parliament will be in 2 months. Well, there is no telling, but "interesting" and "challenged" might be the most apt descriptions.
Whether it has to do about economics, devolution, UK's relation to the US(NATO) or to the EU.
@60 Sofos
Very good post.
Best regards,
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I'm just loving it: the disintegration of the EU in slo-mo happening before my very eyes.
At school I learnt to "beware of Greeks bearing gifts". These days they bear grudges and demand the gifts.
Anyway, I'd love to hear what Nigel Farage has to say about all this ;-)
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Mickalus
Re your #54 and my #47
Yes, the 'behemoth' States appear to have the upper hand at the moment (as does the EU); however, the course of History reveals even more than Humans condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past that 'great power' corrupts and stagnates over time.
I see nothing about China, India, Brazil, Russia etc. to suggest that particular inevitable trend is going to be bucked anymore than the far more obvious but unstoppable economic boom-slump cycle has ever been adequately dealt with.
To coin a phrase. Whoops! There goes another one!
No, far better to stick with the National entity that has emerged and evolved over many centuries and continues to do so with many a slip along the way, but on the whole the Rights 6 Responsibilities of the Citizens have been advanced. Something no supra-National political construct has ever managed to achieve.
It is an interesting concept, 'federation' and even more so the along 'Swiss or Canadian lines'.
Unfortunately that is exactly where those concepts stop where the EU is concwerned.
'Around the block' you may have been, but how you could possibly equate the Maastricht, Amsterdam and Lisbon treaties with anything remotely approaching the Constitutional systems of Switzerland and/or Canada is beyond me!?
It aint going to happen!
Paris-Berlin-Brussels are the ruling triumvirate with the dual-axis-of-ill-intent France & Germany commanding & pulling all the key EU strings!
I honestly just am dumbfounded when you and other likeminded 'pro-EU' write about what you really hope the European Union will be at some fanciful future time.
The EU is what it is now: A power aggrandising, venally self-serving and wholly anti-democratic instrument of centralised bureacratic authority.
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62. At 9:29pm on 26 Feb 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote
Germany has paid an awful lot of money into the "EU". Greece has taken an awful lot out. Maybe the German money that Greece has had would pay for the damage done in WWII.
If you talk with someone that really knows the European issues he will tell you that Germany absorbed for its unification hundreds of billions from EEC at that time
Then he will tell you the following about the agreements of the EU budget:
Each member country gives every year for the EU budget a certain percentage of its GDP. Of course Germany has the highest so the accumulated money they give is larger from UK, France and the rest of the members.
Then this Budget is distributed to the needed most, which maybe Greece, Spain and Portugal in the 80 and beggining of 90s, but as the expansion went on other countries of Eastern Europe starting getting biggest portion of the pie. This happens because there is need for infrastructure in order for the European Economic Machine to keep going...
This does not benefit only countries that get the biggest portions of the budget, but also countries that supply the poorest with any kind of industrial product. The German industry for example would not employ millions of Germans and have such a revenue if the rest of the North was unable to buy... so it is a win win situation if someone sees it with a wider FOR Europe perspective, if someone sits down and counts how many money they given as a country and how many the got directly and not inderectly back, then we shouldn't even talk about European unification, because the national interest is priority first and not second.
In US there are some states that have the automobile factories that supply the whole world, other that have the technology companies. other the military industry, in NY the Financial industry and so on... Every state got a part of the pie in wealth under afederal goverment that seeks the best for all...
that is why USA is the power of the world and will be for the years to come, EU has no unification upon common defense, internal security, foreign policy, education and that is why the EURO was going very bad in the beggining...
Now for those that don't know when the euro started was going bad (08 euros to one dollar ) just because of the lack of common desicion making!
It made a big rise when Japan decided to change the exchange rate og the Gien from dollars to Euros
Now they(financial institution and who know what else?) found another leak in the system which started from weak regulation that let corrupted politicians from Greece and other countries to cook fiscal numbers. They bet on it and made billions of money. And the sophisticated reaction is to name Greeks a nation of liars...keep on !!!
Maybe such crises are good for the people of Europe because believe sooner or later they are going to realise that there is one way to do things and this is TOGETHER
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66, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"I don't know."
MA, That doesn't sound like you....
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@60. Sofos
Well said
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@MA2, about California ...
As of 2008, the gross state product (GSP) is about $1.85 trillion, which is 13% of the United States gross domestic product (GDP). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California)
Population 36,756,666 in 2008 (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html)
Which would give around $50,330 per person. Considering, that the US average is $45,725 in 2009, and that california is the most indebted of its States (in nominal value), then it does indeed say a lot about both the rest of the US, and how much built on debt the US's (fake ?) wealth is ....
... Yet, by IMF stats, that translates into "only" $41,663 per capita in 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_per_capita_GDP_%28nominal%29). Guess a lot of that already went into smoke after 2 years :)
And what about Germany ? $40,400 ... but without the same indebtness levels.
Best regards,
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Nigel Farage (although I do not agree with many of his views I kind of like this guy) has said more or less that Greece is a prisoner of Euro (cannot devalue and ease tension) and now has to accept the indecency of being run by Europe (from 16th March I think EU financial ministers decide on our economic policies by voting. Greek minister will be out of the meeting)... He avoided the usual generalised bashing (which looks quite pathetic when someone is on his knees).
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70. At 10:14pm on 26 Feb 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
I'm just loving it: the disintegration of the EU in slo-mo happening before my very eyes.
At school I learnt to "beware of Greeks bearing gifts". These days they bear grudges and demand the gifts.
ANSWER:
To talk, to disagree, to share opinions and sometimes to fight, it may make you loving it, but is a part of the democratic procedure and dialogue and it doesnt mean that is the dis integration of the EU, this crisis may seem bad for Greece and Europe, but it maybe the resurrection of Europe and the sollution to a lot of Greece problems. Because, sometimes you need to fell to the ground to stand back up and run. In Greece nowdays there is a lot of thinking of how we ended like this and i feel that in the end this situation is going to be beneficial for Greece. Europe again may realise a lot of the leaks of the system and react more united next time. There are a lot of voices in Europe that are pointing to the right direction.
You havn't seen anything yet, you think the problem is in Greece now, wait the following months and you will see how many countries are in the depreciation list of Standard and Poor...
By the way, about demanding gifts, NOBODY ASKED FOR BAILOUT, Greek administration asks for borrowing with the same rates. And maybe in school they didnt tell you when you should be afraid of the Greek gifts... When you steal something beautiful from the Greeks like Eleni of Troy or history or pride... then you should be afraid whether it is in a form of gift or not!
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Sofos you are full of wisdom and nice history lessons!
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I was listening to the Greek news and they said that as Foreign Minister the current PM has raised the issue of the reparations many a time when he was meeting German officials. He knows the issue very well that's why very confidently said in the parliament that the issue is still open. Merkel's invitation came immediately after his dramatic talk in the parliament. Greek news said that they are to discuss the reparations also (do not know if true). Now I make a wild thought, imagine that the Germans decide to provide some help to Greece as the only country that this issue is still open with the understanding that 'you won't mention this damn war again' (this is a humorous touch of course). Only country is crucial, it does not make a precedent for aid to other EU countries. It is just a wild thought and I don't bet that it will happen but if yes it will be a surreal turn of events very fitting to the eurozone circus! Sorry Sofos I cannot take these clowns (politicians) very seriously!
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Continuation: Greek government in line with past tradition spends the money in bouzoukia breaking plates and we are at square 1 again. :-) One should not lose its sense of humour even if he sees his salary go down dramatically!
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Greeks make the mistake to mention the war yet again at which point Germany decides and very rightly so to implement the final solution :-)
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71. At 10:17pm on 26 Feb 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
But the solution is simple. The Irish constitution unambiguously requires a referendum on matters which fetter the power of legislators, such as an EU Treaties.
Adopt a similar convention.
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#77 sofos. You identify the problem "In Greece nowdays there is a lot of thinking of how we ended like this..."
Don´t you know, no thinking is allowed. Stand in line, pay your taxes, bear your burdens, and keep your mouths shut. Any deviation will result in instant retribution. No-one cares about the past, we all march onward together united in desire to pay homage to the Anglo-American hegemony.
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Guys, most of the things you say are alright but are we remaining too much in the surface? Shouldn't we go a bit deeper to talk a bit about the real game that is played in the back room?
Is it the Greek economy the issue? No, otherwise it would had been an issue long before Greece enterred the euro.
Is the greek goverment there to provide any solution? Well no, they are actually part of the problem themselves. It would surprise me positevely if they turned the table upside down and did something spectacular but what can we expect when we have seen so far the following measures announced since the first weeks of this new governement... let us see:
1) Announcement that the Greek deficit is bigger (they defined it up to the 12,5% level, yet that is still not well established).
2) Freezing of the huge gaz project with Russia
3) Freezing of talks with the Chinese on the "leasing" of Greek ports
4) Announcement of providing the citizenship to 200,000 illegal immigrants (mainly kids).
5) A general loose behaviour towards the aggressiveness of Turkey and FYROM (the one asks whole islands from Greece, the other little it maybe simply demands the 1/3 of Greece!!!).
My commentary:
1) Why on earth a PM would tear his own eyes? Lets not forget that it is Papandreou that started it all himself. Why didn't he just move on with the measures improving the Greek economy to more acceptable level before doing the revelation?
2) Is it by shutting off the Russian gaz project of huge financial and economico-strategic importance, that Greece is going to improve its economy? Perpaps continuing to buy Saoudi oil will improve its economy as it did for the last 30 years...
3) Is it by stopping to talk with the main trading nation in the world, China, that Greece is going to develop? Perhaps the huge (!) production sector of Greece would be affected by the influx of chinese products like chinese olive oil and Chinese female-tourist-hunting hairy matcho men.
4) Not wanting to play with the plight of illegal immigrants (at the end of the day each fights on his own for his own),but is it really sensible to do it now? Will their addition convince the vast majority of them working in the black economy (and, lets not hide things, often other illegal activities) to make a move and become legal? And will they be finding jobs in a country of minimum 20% unemployment (the real becomes more if I add everybody...) or will they all run to get unemployment benefits and plague even more the national health.
5) Ok this is the absolute. This guy has even declared that he is ready to give whole pieces of Greece if Turkey asks it just to avoid war and sleep calmly in the night. Blatant treason. If this was said by some marginal extra-left-wing figure (usually what French know as gauche-caviar) I would not pay attention but this is the greek PM some months before being elected that said so, a statement that was played down later (but what he said was clear enough). So this guy is ready to give any piece of land and all the ressources related to it to just anyone that asks for. A very innovative way of protecting the Greek economy indeed!
So this amazing 3rd-in-a-row Papandreou is right now on 1 move, 2 decisions, 1 measure and 1 policy that are blatantly against the economy of Greece, perhaps condamning it for mroe than a decade more of underdevelopment - forget any comeback, let alone all the grave consequences that could have. And people below still hope for a miracle.
Forget it guys. Making the same mistake twice is not any wise man's thingie. We have been doing the same mistake again and again. How much more? When these people will sell off the last piece of the country? This country has a very bad record with PASOK governments of:
1) Being provoked by the Turkish and constantly retreating (1987, 1996)
2) Refusing important foreign investement (in 1980s the Japanese one, in 2000s the Russian)
I do not know... I really hope wholeheartedly that I say lies here and all my observations are wrong or a thing of the past and unrelated to the current situation.
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@ Gavin,
Interesting debates. As a new reader it's all quite nice. However, can you please control the number of rants by a certain Marcus Aurelius, with his usual eurosceptic nonsense and banal, superficial analysis?
Whether I agree or disagree with him is irrelevant, it's just that he is getting a bit of an (most likely uneducated) irritant and a loudmouth on this board...
For the rest, nice blog
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Hi guys. I don't know the whole story regarding the reparations and I don't know what the amount is, but it doesn't matter if 70 or 700 years have passed. A crime is a crime and a debt is a debt, unless your are suggesting new theories and practices. So, if I steal your car MarcusAvrelius, after how many years will you stop claiming it? Just to know.
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Some background on the subject of reparations.
http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/Content/en/Article.aspx?office=2&folder=289&article=4885
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Totilein @35
"But the main point here is that for my generation this war is so much out of any conscience than probably Napoleon is for young generations in France or Stalin for the young ones in Russia."
Russian youngsters are indeed very much, how to say, plugged off :o)))
There is a video popular on Russian youtube, "silly Americans" :o))) a questionnaire done in the streets, simple questions to which are given very silly answers :o)))
But then a Russian research team decided to do better and shoot a film "Silly Russians". Asked the same very questions to the youngsters in the Russia's streets. Dear my! :o)))))
Now these two are popular in a package :o)))
Questions were type "what is holocaust", "what religion is there in Israel", "who was Mao Tse Dun", what is the diffference between Neil Armstrong and Louis Armstrong :o)))))) etc.
Nobody knows.
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And, as one of recent school essays says, "Stalin was a USSR leader who wanted to moderate everything, was against free speech and resisted creation of internet."
:o))))
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To: maxsceptic, post #70
From: viewcode
Maxsceptic, I understand that the Eurosceptic readership of this board consider that the Eurozone's current travails and the concomitant damage to the EU are a cause for joy. But *please* consider the following:
1) Whilst there is a plausible case for the UK leaving the EU, and a (less-plausible) case for the dissolution of the EU per se, *nobody* gains from the Greece problems and a chaotic Euro breakup. Not Europhiles, Euronationalists, Eurofederalists, Euroenthusiasts, Euroneutrals, Eurorealists, Eurosceptics, Europhobes, nor anybody else. The UK sells a huge wedge of stuff to the EU. The EU sells a huge wedge of stuff to the UK. The EU goes down, they can't sell as much stuff to UK and can't buy as much stuff from UK - *everybody* loses.
2) If the last two years have taught us anything, it's that countries are interconnected. US banks parcel up bad debts...and the Royal Bank of Scotland collapses. An international credit crunch...and the government of Iceland falls. We've already seen enormous problems in Latvia and (to a lesser degree, tho' still bad) in Ireland. Do you honestly think Greece problems won't cascade to the UK?
3) When the hedge funds/markets/whichever group of men in suits with trillions in funds finish treating Greece, Portugal, Italy et al in the same way Darth Vader treated Alderaan, do you think they'll be content? Or do you think they might move on to the other North-West European island with planet-sized debts. Y'know, the one we're both currently standing on?
4) The pound is currently falling *faster* than the Euro. This small point may seem trivial, but for people like me with their life savings in sterling (let me repeat that: MY LIFE SAVINGS IN STERLING), this is a fairly important point - the ongoing pound devaluation means I'm 25% poorer than I was two years ago and (deity-of-choice help me) 10% poorer than I was two weeks ago. Don't believe me: go check the exchange rate (very bad) or pound versus gold (catastrophically bad).
In short, although you may think this Eurofarrago is just *stacks* of fun, it's making you, me, and everybody we know, measurably and significantly poorer in real-time.
Regards, viewcode
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To: Mickalus, post#82
From: viewcode
Re: A Crotty-type restriction on the UK government.
Mickalus, I note your observation that "...But the solution is simple. The Irish constitution unambiguously requires a referendum on matters which fetter the power of legislators, such as an EU Treaties...Adopt a similar convention..." I'm not sure if you're recommending such a convention for the UK (cool_brush_work's previous post is somewhat gnomic) but, if you are, there's a problem: it won't work in the UK. Ireland has a constitution which binds its government and (if I understand correctly) cannot be changed without a referendum. The UK doesn't have a constitution (sometimes expressed as "the UK has an unwritten constitution", which means the same thing), Parliament is supreme and cannot bind its successors. Any measure designed to prevent a future UK government (for instance) ratifying a EU treaty without referendum can be easily overwritten by the same future UK government.
I apologise if I've misunderstood your post, but given it was a response to cool_brush_work's post#71, and that that post was somewhat convoluted, it's the best I can do.
Regards, viewcode.
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Hockey. Canada-Russia 7:3.
Surely, judges.
I've seen those Canadians.
Even in the traings they don't jump a quad.
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As nearly as I can figure, the GNI or GNP (the real number which counts) for Greece is about 250 billion dollars. And the debt coming due is 25 billion. So all the Government has to do is just take an extra 10% of every Greek's income to pay it. Now that the Greeks have all but precluded the possibility that Germans will bail them out, their only alternatives seem to be direct intervention by the EU Central Bank or help from the IMF. BTW, when New York City was in the same position and the Federal Government had to bail it out, they took control of the city's government away from elected officials and ran it until it was solvent again. Perhaps that is what will happen to Greece, it will be run by the EU commission. I'll bet they know how to collect taxes. And NO dancing in the aisles, please.
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How much did Greece waste on building those venues for the Olympics. Well that was a great 2 week party. Talk about blowing a wad of money.
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Insults and "smart" comments should be let alone for good times. In such bad times Greece should do its best to reform its entire system and not to make pointless comments. It is known that in good times governments will never take unpopular decisions to reform and improve the country political, economic and social system. It is during hard times when these measures are taken. So, please Greek fellows concentrate on finding the best way to come out of this situation, stronger, more modern and more competitive than before.
I hope that most Greeks will never listen to such comments about Germany or any other country. Hard economic times brings unscrupulous people in power. An we already know what happens when such people have power.
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@MA-II # 94
A lot of the money 'wasted' was for 'security' arrangements since it was the first Olympics after 9/11. 1.5 billion dollars for that alone,
to be compared with the roughly 100 millions dollars for Atlanta 1996. Even so, it gave Athens a modern and efficient metro system, and some of the venues are still used. So there are long term legacies, not all negative.
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So Athens wasted its money on a metro. Instead it could have built a spaceport. You never know when one day Greece might want to launch a man to the moon.
Speaking about wasted space money, how much did the EU waste on its redundant space program? What has it accomplished so far, put a probe on Mars? No, I forgot, it crashed and besides the USSR and the US did that a long time ago. They US has threatened to shoot Galileo down if it is ever deployed and I think they will. It's a security risk. If some hostile nation ever launches a missile at the US and uses Galileo for guidance to the target, it will detonate long before US defense forces can figure out which of the EU's four presidents to call to get them to turn it off.
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@ Alice, 88, 89:
I am sure Stalin would have been against Internet if there had been one in those days. They are completly right.^^
Here in Germany WW II haunts the pupils through 13 grades but not, as one could imagine, only in history class, no, literature during and about WWII, art during WWII, I had French, Russian and English as foreign languages in school, in French it was the resistance in France during WWII, in Russian connections between Russia and Germany but mainly, how could it be any different, WWII. Foreigners often think that they shouldn't mention the war when together with Germans because they feel bad and responsible but it's not that. When you have been 13 years on a German school your ears start bleeding when you hear the terms WW II, Nazis, Hitler etc. In my last year in school in art we made a project about analysing a movie. We weren't able to find a movie that we all liked so our teacher decided for us and, how else could it have been, it was the movie "Life is beautiful". Nothing against that movie, I have it here at home and I love it, wonderful italian masterpiece, only to show you that for a german pupil WWII is everywhere. When I'm in a book store I can do nothing else than run to pass the history section.
Two years ago when I was in Colombia to visit my relatives there I met a young man from France who was there to learn spanish. As spanish is my native language beside german we talked in spanish as he was there to learn it. It took us about 5 minutes to come to WWII, funny because at first I didn't even notice what he was talking about because he talked about Hitler but wasn't able to pronouce it in way I could understand, sounded something like "Iiiitleee".^^ But you see, this topic haunts us even when in far-away Colombia.
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MA-II @ #97
Marcus, you've never been in Athens, then? Anyway, how much money is wasted by NASA on manned space flights? There were only muted mutterings when W. ordered in 2004 the reorientation of NASA towards a manned spaceflight to Mars of all places, but it diverted a lot of money from useful science-oriented projects. There is healthy competition/collaboration in the space sciences between EU countries (organised in ESA) and the USA (NASA), with little redundancy. As for Galileo, well, there is space in space for everyone, it is not US property, as far as I know. By the way, Greece joined ESA in 2005 as 16th member.
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Tortilein, whose frankness we should admire moans about having to take in so many history lessons about WW2. German History about the Third Reich has been made available bit by bit over the years. For many years none, later in form of slithers, more akin to salami. In July 2009, long after Tortilein's school years, the German Authorities "enriched" us all with the last revelation about the Nazi era:
30 000 murders were committed by Germans on Germans, 20 000 by German soldiers and 10 000 by civilians. The assumption has to be that those murderers have now also passed away.
When will these historic facts reach the history books? Will history books ever reveal when the facts were made available?
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The past is the past and the now is the now.
Theodoros Pangalos is wrong to target the German wartime mentality for the problems that Greece faces today but Mr Pangalos is not entirely wrong to vent some of his spleen at the Germans of today.
Countries such as Greece have incurred crushing debts in part because they bought too many Mercedes cars and other imports from Germany and elsewhere, without producing enough of their own export goods. In fact, goods from Greece, Spain and Portugal were often no longer competitive because in the last decade those countries had let wages rise faster than productivity and had become too expensive exporters.
At the same time Germany, a country of savers, exported more than it consumed, profiting from its spendthrift neighbors but not reciprocating by buying equal amounts of imports.
Germany’s trade surplus is by far the largest in Europe, reaching 135.8 billion euros ($184.9 billion) in 2009, according to Eurostat, the European Union’s statistics office. Germany’s surplus was more than triple that of the Netherlands, which was in second place.
The Western EUropean consumer countries with the biggest trade deficits are also the ones with biggest economic problems: Britain, Ireland, Spain, Greece and Portugal.
The inter-national friction highlighted by Mr Pangalos's criticisms have more resonance when viewed against Germany enjoying the bounty of membership of the European Union at the expense of Greece.
Mr Pangalos's comments was wrongly aimed at wartime Germany but should have been targeted at the modern EU member - Germany - who have enjoyed the benefits of EU market participation to improve the standard of living in Germany entirely at the expense of the net-importer nations such as Greece (and the United Kingdom) who now find themselves screwed by membership of the EU because of the success of Germany. The economic benefits of membership of the EU (and Eurozone)are fast becoming an economic nightmare for the peripeheral nations as National Debt has now gained critical importance and become too large for the peripheral nations.
In a nutshell, therein lies the paradox of EU membership it is no longer a club for nations of equal rights, benefits and economic prosperity.
Greece as a member of the EU, should see economic and social benefits but the stark reality is that German has gained the boon of EU and Eurozone membership by tight monetary restraint and German rectitude in taxation (sometimes enforced but generally voluntary) but Greece is a victim of the EU market imbalance which favours Germany and France as well as the self-imposed national debt and improper national government bookkeeping that has so injured Greek economic reputation.
Greece might actually be better off leaving the EU and managing its economy despite rather than in collusion with the Germans who seem to be the one success story demonstrating the benefits of EU membership but doing so at the expense of the Greeks and others EU nations for that matter.
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91. At 03:08am on 27 Feb 2010, viewcode wrote:
Thank you viewcode - this explains much!!
This is quite an unusual way to organise government.
Two possibilities - the adoption of a written constitution enshrining the laws and traditions of the unwritten with a Crotty arrangement? Other monarchies in Europe already use such an approach. Or adoption of a law which requires the Monarch to consult the subjects prior to Royal Assent of Treaties?
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To Menedemus (101):
The German trade surplus isn't because it exports so much to other EU countries, but because it exports so much to non-EU countries. For example my own country only exports under 60% of its all exports to the internal market, the rest goes to foreign markets. There is nothing that stop countries on trying to export more to non-EU countries. Blaming this crisis on Germans because they have successful exports is just wrong, we should all try to be more competitive and export more, not complain and moan that others are doing it.
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Have I missed the point somewhere ? Perhaps I am mistaken .
As I understand the Treaty of Rome was signed by six countries to bind Europe together and prevent a third World war , started again by Germany . The Germans are serious hard working people , whose economic ability is capable of soon outstripping that of neighbouring countries .
Germany in particular is keen on the EU that holds them in line and prevents the danger of their wanting to take over their neighbours .
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Jukka #103
Its not that I blame Germany for being prudent, being better at pricing manufacturinbg costs and achieving a flourishing economy (until the end of last year that is!) but that the EU and Eurozone is a common market of unequal partners.
Yes, the peripheral countries should bring their economies on and catch up with Germany but the fact is that many of the peripheral nations that are suffering the worst effects of the global recession which manifests itself as a disastrous balance of payments deficit entered the EU on unequal terms in the first place. They joined the Euro with economies that could not cope with the restrictions imposed by the ECB modelled on the German economy that restricts BoT Deficits to 3% of GDP and have always had to play catch-up with the Germans who have gained the most from EU and Euro membership.
I do not criticise Germany for being successful, I merely point out that the EU and Euro has been better for Germany than it has for Greece (and the UK, Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Italy) in terms of economic development as those nations simply spent the EUs money windfall on developing bigger and better social provision than Germany which used the EU windfall to maintain growth because Germany already had excellent social provisions. The windfall of EU membership has simply vanished for the peripheral nations as the global economic recession has taken hold and higlighted the inequality of the EU's diverse economies and the weakness of the peripheral nations economies in particular.
Again that is not the fault of Germany but it does mean that Greece was, perhaps, expecting too much from joining the EU and Eurozone and might be better off by now leaving that union (of being in the EU and member state aligned to the Euro). Greece might find that membership of the EU and being in the Eurozone actually now acts as a constraint on how they manage to recover from the massive deficit by demanding 4% year-on-year deficit reduction to bring Greece down to a Deficit based upon the German economy - that economy never having had to face the same problems that Greece faces today.
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@ jablko, 100:
I tried my best to get a life apart from WWII even if this may shock you.^^ Since I left school about 10 years ago I'm free to say: I don't show no longer any interests in any new facts revealed about WWII.
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I was impressed by Mendemus's post at 101. Very interesting stuff.
He highlights the strange nature of EU "centralization". It is less a federation of people than a business agreement between governments. And, as he points out, this has created an imbalance of outcomes for the member states.
I'm fascinated by the way foreigners always perceive Germany as a "rich" nation. Sure, the economic data suggests the country ought to be rich, but I have found my experience to be more in line with Tortilein's observations. That is that Germans work long hours, are paid moderately well, suffer very high taxation, and have a dubious standard of living. I wouldn't want to live and work in Germany. The place seems to me to be one large factory, run for the benefit of the shareholders of very large multinational corporations.
I suppose the key to understanding the seeming contradiction is to acknowledge that even within a given nation, economic data can only really describe the fortunes of minorities. Now I know the general "trickle down" theory says that a rising tide lifts all boats, and no doubt there is some truth in that doctrine, but I wonder if perhaps the modern media are far too one sided when the discuss "economics".
Why do we never read about the economic outlook of the family who own no significant assets, rather than the economic outlook of corporate shareholders?
According to corporate economic indicators, which are what we always see in the mainstream media, the economics of working families don't matter.
During my brief stint working in the UK, I was employed to manage taxation paperwork for small family owned business's. The taxation the owners paid was remarkably high. It wasn't just the income tax and the NHS tax, but also the sales tax and the VAT on everything they bought. When ordinary working people buy petrol and food and services, they pay an incredible amount of tax. This is because tax is passed on down the food chain by large corporations. So when the government tax fuel, fuel prices rise, and the shareholders of petrochemical companies simply pass on the tax to the consumer. It is the same with import taxes into the EU, and on every other kind of direct tax.
This creates a situation whereby a family that is earning about 5000 times as much as an african family have about enough money to eat second rate food, get to work on filthy public transport, clothes themselves in cheap chinese made garments and watch TV. In other words, the work to live in urban poverty. They have TV, although their is a tax on that too in the UK, but they can't afford to go out and do things. They haven't the time. They are always working. They can't save anything, because despite earning a lot on paper, their earnings are eaten up by the cost of everything they need to live. And those costs are so high because at every stage of the production and supply process, the government levies taxes which are passed on down to the bottom of the food chain: the working family.
When we discuss Germany as some kind of economic role model, we should be very careful not to idolize a society that is strikingly similar to a slave state. The same can be said for china. Germans are brought up to work, to pay their taxes, and to not complain about the state. That is equally true for west germans as it is for east germans.
Is that how we want to live? Everybody doing as they are told, tyranized by petty rules issued by people in government uniforms?
In Switzerland, the Swiss perception of the Germans is that they are tormented by rules as they grow up, and they end up as adults who can't help but tyrannize each other with their own petty rules. For me, this is somewhat ironic, because I see the Swiss as suffering the same condition. The Swiss have rules upon rules upon rules, as far as I can see. But the Swiss also have a profound contempt for authority, which is absent in the public behaviour of most germans.
Now the greeks, by stark contrast, refuse to be tyrannized by petty government officials. In short, they tell their government officials to go hang when they come seeking ever more taxes to spend on their grand schemes. And the greeks, from what I have seen in Athens, seem to live a relaxed and more socially inviting lifestyle, when compared to the germans.
Now to test my thesis here, all you have to do is go for a week to germany and to greece, and see how many conversations you get invited into, and how many folks smile at you and say something nice to you.
I will eat my skis if you don't find the greeks to be a happier, more friendly society.
The key, to my taste, is that greeks refuse authority whereas germans tend to bow to it. And there are historical reasons for that, not least of which is the grave tyranny of the third reich, which people forget was visited most harshly upon the german people themselves. Yes it was terrible to be a european jew in the 40's, but even worse was to be a german jew.
And what we are witnessing in this current economic crisis is precisely the conflict between government and the people.
Let us not be fooled: the government claims to be representing the people, but only a child or a fool believes politicians are not motivated by opportunities to spend the publics money in ways that assist their own personal careers within their party.
If we take a new look at what has happened in greece, instead of blaming the greek people for the corruption, we ought to blame their government specifically. The greek refusal to pay taxes and thus provide the funds for government spending was a direct action and a direct statement of intent towards the desires of government officials to spend more money than they could get from the people.
Now a party member, or a good german, will claim that people must pay their taxes because those are the rules. And yes, in a totalitarian society one must pay ones taxes because those are the rules.
But is that right? It it morally correct for a government to spend more than it can get from its people, defying the will of the people to restrict its access to their money?
Who owns the money, anyway? Is it the party in power, or the people of the nation?
Beware of presuming that the party in power owns everything, such that they can mortgage it and spend money they cannot get by popular consent.
That is what the bankers want you to believe, because under such a system the bankers make a fortune.
Remember that western bankers funded Lenin, and that the soviet union always made it repayments to them until the 1990's.
Western banker prefer a totalitarian state in countries where they do not live, because a totalitarian state can force its people to work and make interest repayments, even when the loan ought never have been made. And increasingly, western bankers don't live in the west, or indeed anywhere. They live in five star compounds, move from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as they see fit, and do not even use their government issued identities for business transactions or to hold assets. Any taxes they are told to pay, they pass on down the food chain.
So when you judge Germany and Greece, do not be fooled by the economic fundamentalists who serve a worldview that suits the owners of the corporation or political party which employs them.
An economist is someone who can't tell the difference between a thousand pounds worth of bombs and a thousand pounds worth of medicine. You can't know how to raise you family or speak to your neighbours by listening to an economist. Not unless they begin to talk about the economy of the family: your own family.
Let me know when you see that sort of analysis in the mainstream media.
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105. At 11:38am on 27 Feb 2010, Menedemus wrote:
" ...
I do not criticise Germany for being successful, I merely point out that the EU and Euro has been better for Germany than it has for Greece ..."
EUpris: The Germans do a proper job. They buy they best equipment and use the best materials and try to treat the workforce decently. Lots of people, including the Brits, should copy the Germans (in many ways but not in all). We don't need to be in the "EU" to do that.
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The big banks that caused the crises are not Greek,California is not in Greece,Bernie Madoff is not Greek,Siemens the company that was caught paying bribes to politicians is not Greek!!!!
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@democracythreat
I have to agree with many of your points.
I don't have answers only questions.
If all people suffer, both in the two stereotypical extremes of the spectrum 'rich and honest Germany' and 'poor and corrupt Greece' isn't this a big problem?
If we go a bit more deeply on the nature of the problems, can't we see that the real problem is an unfair system of unjust markets, speculators (e.g. bankrupty becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy, your betting affects the result, this is outrageous) and bankers becoming rich while people have to suffer sacrifices. Why?
For whose benefit does the system work? Certainly not for the people.
Could it be that the current international dogma of putting first the interests of big business, bankers etc. than people which is propagated by all media is completely wrong (and unethical)?
Probably it is too soon to give answers to these, but if the crisis continues for many years, if every two or three months Greeks now other nationalities later have to lose 1 or 2 month's wages? if massive unemployment and discontent grow, the consequences can be unimaginable. That's why I think that we should target the bashing to the real culrpits (independently of nationality) and not to the people (Greeks, Germans etc.). We have more that unites us than we can think of. People suffer in all countries and bankers get bonuses for loses.
What is happening in RBS? Are the UK public (RBS belongs mainly to the taxpayer) happy to pay huge bonuses to gamblers in general and for losing money in particular? They say that in this way they will retain talent otherwise talent will leave. Why can't all democratically elected governments around the world decide to regulate their excessive bonuses? What is their mundate? to work for the benefit of the bankers (who started this damn crisis in the first place) or for the people who vote for them?
These are serious question that almost nobody investigates in the 'widely respected' media in a systematic way (correct me if I am wrong). They just propagate and propagate the current neoliberal dogma directly or indirectly.
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smroet;
"Marcus, you've never been in Athens, then?"
Not only have I never been to Athens Greece, I've never even been to Athens Georgia or Athens New York both of which are a lot closer to home.
So what would I see in Athens, a bunch of old ruins I can see pictures of on TV? From the reports about the contractors who built the Olympic venues, they were constructing the ruins of the future...and reportedly from the quality of their work the not too distant future at that :-)
If it is any comfort to you, I did read the Iliad, the Odessey, Thucydides, Heroditus, and a lot of Greek plays. Forgot most of them. It's been a long time and anyway it was all Greek to me :-)
Take it from a Roman Emperor, don't waste your money on these sports arenas, they just divert the masses from work. Instead build aquaducts. That's what the world needs, more aquaducts to get water from where you have it to where you need it. Water could become the oil of the 21 century.
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@ democracythreat:
"I'm fascinated by the way foreigners always perceive Germany as a "rich" nation. Sure, the economic data suggests the country ought to be rich, but I have found my experience to be more in line with Tortilein's observations. That is that Germans work long hours, are paid moderately well, suffer very high taxation, and have a dubious standard of living. I wouldn't want to live and work in Germany. The place seems to me to be one large factory, run for the benefit of the shareholders of very large multinational corporations."
Thank you, really thank you, thank you, thank you. You are one of the few here who got it. Most people here think that this country made it extremly well in the EU and with the Euro and I always ask myself "Why? Is it me? Do I live in the wrong neighbourhood? Is it my fault that whereever I go, whatever I see here there are more and more people who cannot afford a worthy life because prices have risen extremly, especially when we got the Euro, while salaries have not..." Here in Frankfurt it takes you very few metro stations from the "golden" skyscrapers of the banks to run-down neighbourhoods where everyone who can afford it moves away as quickly as he can. And you see these neighbourhoods all over Germany as long as you don't drive with our BMW at 200 km/h over a speedway with closed eyes. My relatives in Colombia think that life here has to be paradies and they don't understand why I would love to stay longer when I have to go back after some month. They don't get it either. Life here is running, running, running without ever reaching a goal. And I am not even part of the working class, I studied law, nevertheless also for me it extremly difficult to reach the end of the month without an empty fridge. It's not all about statistics, they don't reveal how the majority in Germany lives.
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Tortilla;
Germany will bite the bullet, grin and bear it, and in the end bail out Greece. It has no choice. There will be hell to pay if it doesn't. Even Germany will not cut off its nose to spite its face.
I am amazed how insensitive many Europeans are about the Nazi era Germans must feel. Almost all of the people who were in any way involved are dead now. Those left alive are very old and at the end of their lives. Almost all of the people in Germany alive today hadn't been born yet when the Nazis ruled Germany. Why has this subject been brought up? If Europeans feel Germans have not dealt adequately and completely with their Nazi past, then this would be a matter for separate discussion. Why is it being introduced during this crisis? If this doesn't prove that the old animosities which divide Europe are still very much alive and real no matter what those who promote the EU say and hope for I don't know what does. And the argument that this kind of absurd construct is necessary to prevent another war in Europe only proves that without the restraints of financial self interest, Europeans are basically irrational because they would resurface those hatreds just as they always have in the past to work themselves up to one more bloodbath.
The problem with building a construct on an entirely irrational foundations is that eventually the contradictions lead to fractures which propagate to the point where the structure will inevitably collapse. I think that is the point where Europe is at now, on the eve of collapse.
Since so many Europeans feel that the sins against their fathers, grandfathers, and great, great, great, great, grandfathers are legitimate cause for retribution down through subsequent generations, they should reflect that the conflict they face from the American juggernaught which will inevitably bring Europe down is their own just reward for those emigrees to America their ancestors drove out. And with their love of literature, they should reflect on the irony that what has and will be visited on them by America has been and largely will be unintentional and inadvertent. Had America gone out of its way to punish and destroy Eruope deliberately, it would have happened a long time ago. But the way in which this has come about is so much better. It reminds me of an Italian saying which has it that revenge is a dish best enjoyed cold. Our forefathers who fled Europe often in fear of losing their lives if they stayed are smiling in their graves. Reads like a Greek tragedy doesn't it? I'd say somewhat akin to Oedipus Rex.
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To: Mickalus post#102
From: viewcode
Re: A Crotty-type restriction on the UK government.
Mickalus, your first suggestion ("the adoption of a written constitution enshrining the laws and traditions of the unwritten with a Crotty arrangement") would work, but there's no realistic chance of seeing it in the short/medium term: there's no popular/political demand for one - the lack of a UK constitution is not seen (wrongly, IMHO) as a problem that needs fixing.
Your second suggestion ("adoption of a law which requires the Monarch to consult the subjects prior to Royal Assent of Treaties") would work in a sense, and I understand the UK Conservative party is proposing a similar law. But it wouldn't cure the underlying problem: that law could be struck down by a later Parliament. It's the equivalent of sticking a note on the fridge that says "Dear me. Don't eat the lovely pies in this fridge. Signed, me" - a week later there's nothing stopping you going "I WANT PIE!", ripping the note off the fridge and stuffing face full of lovely pie. Countries with constitutions do have something that prevent governments pigging out on pie - it's the constitution. Countries without constitutions end up with governments sitting fatly on the floor with pie gravy dripping from their jowls wailing "I'VE BEEN BAD".
Unfortunately, I have no third suggestion...:-)
As to your comment that "This is quite an unusual way to organise government...". Sigh. Tell me about it...the UK system of government is not "designed", it's "thrown together and held together with string". Sometimes it has advantages, but - to be honest - mostly it doesn't. If you were starting from scratch, you wouldn't build a governance system like this.
Regards, viewcode
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Viewcode
Re your #91 and allusion to my "..gnomic.." comment: Cheek!
Seriously, can't see any proper 'aphorisms' in my remarks and since when has an attempt to 'express a general truth' been anything other than "..convoluted.."!?
In any case, by my hyperbolic standard, my #71's 4 basic paragraphs constitute brevity of a near miraculous nature!
However, must concur with you: No such binding UK legislation (as in Eire) for referendum is possible whilst there's no clearly delineated written version of the constitution. A strength and a weakness.
As for Mickalus, I don't get the impression he comprehends the depth of the UK/England disquiet over a union with Europe that has not been voted on for almost 40 years - - again, the unwritten UK constitution means Citizens are much more used to and expect more rapid 'political/leadership' response to their concerns than it appears most Europeans are with the feebleness of the EU Commission & Parliament - - most 'pro-EU' dismiss this requirement for 'political' reaction to Citizens' sentiment as pandering to the masses which of course just exposes their basic anti-democratic attitudes.
The EU is their ideal 'democracy' in its present form: Citizens are invited to participate once every few years and in between should mind their business and let the 'clever' intellectuals who 'understand' things get on with it all!
Quite astonishing when one considers those same 'intellects' also run the Banks, Investments, Financial affairs... My! What a success they made of those!
It is also clear Mickalus, though he says he has sympathy with concerns over the EU, thinks the EU will change to suit Citizens' wishes: The 'referendum' idea, moving towards 'Swiss/Canadian' systems etc. being typical of this wishful thinking!
Whereas IMO it is as plain as day the EU almost always only responds to the lobbying interests of 'big-Business/big-Government'.
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@ 97 MAII
Talking about ESA, let me clarify one point: ESA has nothing to do with the European Union. To quote from the ESA homepage:
"ESA is an intergovernmental organisation with no formal organic link to the EC, indeed the two institutions have different Member States and are governed by different rules and procedures."
And speaking about wasted space money, the 2009 budget for NASA was $17.6 billion, that for ESA was €3.6 billion.
Now I know it is sexy to lift humans to space, but the scientific value is somewhere around zilch! And guess where most of the big money is spent in NASA.
Luckily, the archaic space shuttle is soon to retire and NASA can finally concentrate again on work with real scientific value.
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Pericles had to fight to persuade Athenians to provide money for Parthenon. Many thought that it was just a megalomania and so many people are poor. (If I remember correctly the story) He had to even threaten them that he will do it alone and get all the credit. Exploring the universe, where we come from, art, music, philosophy should always have some sort of priority in the human kind and should not been abandoned. Not all things are measured by their direct 'usefulness'. It's one of these things that make us different from the other forms of life.
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Vasilly;
"If all people suffer, both in the two stereotypical extremes of the spectrum 'rich and honest Germany' and 'poor and corrupt Greece' isn't this a big problem?"
Neither Germany nor Greece thought about that possibility when Greece asked to join the EU and Germany said yes. Germany gave some thought to potential problems when it insisted along with France on the Growth and Stability Pact in Maastrict but then threw it away when it was no longer desirable in light of their domestic political problems. Irrationality won out over principled reason for the sake of expediency, a hallmark of European culture. All Schroeder and the Germans thought when Greece was admitted was how the EU would be yet bigger and even badder and more able to take on the US. All Greece thought about was the free handouts it was going to get from the other richer EU members.
Greece is supposedly a democracy. Then Greeks should hold their government to account for its mistakes, its crimes. In a democracy you not only have rights, you have responsibilities as well that go along with them. Isn't it about time Greeks started exercising that responsibility? If they don't they will have a failed state which remains entirely corrupt and bankrupt. If Greece is not a democracy but was brought into the EU on the pretense that it is, then what does that say about the EU and about Greece. Greece should not blame its problems on anyone but itself. Not on Goldman Sachs, not on Turkey, not on Germany, not on the EU, not on US banks. To find the real root cause of Greece's problems, Greeks should look in the mirror.
Even if Greece is somehow resolved for the moment, there are the other piiggies to deal with and some of them like Spain aren't so little. Where is the worry about those time bombs going to happen or is Europe going to wait until they are about ready to detonate just as it waited on Greece. They aren't going away Europe. Spain, Ireland, Portugal, and Italy will remain attached to Europe and the EU at the hip. Germans, French, Brits, and Dutchmen wanted to have one big unified Europe. Now they will find that they haven't brought the poorest of them very far up, they will have in effect brought the richest of them very far down. What will you do Britain when Germany and France demand that you too pitch in and help with the bailout of the PIIGS? What will you do when Sweden and others demand that you help with the bailout of their banks?
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viewcode @#114
You are absolutely correct that there is no popular demand for a written constitution for United Kingdom but I disagree that the absence of a written constitution for the UK is a problem that needs fixing.
We have a perpetual and for ever niggling problem that 40 years of the development of the EU has continued despite rather than because of popular plebiscite and some people, especially the British, feel they have been disenfranchised from determining the future of the UK within or without membership of the EU.
One often hears siren calls for there to be a Referendum in the UK to determine, once and for all time, whether the UK should stay or withdraw from the EU. In essence a referendum on this topic would encapsulate and provide democratic choice for the UK Nations to determine the future and for THE people to have the opportunity, long demanded, to express their will on membership of the EU.
The problem with Referenda is that such instruments of democracy ask the question NOW but do not provided for the next generation to change their minds when the Future becomes the NOW and circumstances may be different. Unless, of necessity, one holds to populist referenda for almost every constitutional choice that governmemts make during every UK Parliament, e.g. revision of the Upper Chamber of Westminster, devolution of powers and additional power to the nation states that make up the UK, surrender of more powers to the EU, etceteras, etceteras.
The idea of continuous engagement of the electorate with constitutional matters through referenda is a neat idea but impractical as the UK would be holding referenda ad nauseam.
The beauty of the unwritten constitution NOT restricting future Parliaments to the choices made by previous Parliaments is that constitutional change remains fluid and momentous decisions such as continued membership of the EU are not made irrevocable.
That having been said, the problem of the continued membership of the EU by the United Kingdom has never been asked of the electorate within the UK thus no irrevocable decision has been made other than to further integrate and that decision was made by John Major's government when he signed acesion to the EU via the Maastricht Treaty without real mandate to do so as he had a very small majority and certainly too samll a share of the popular vote to have made that decision which has destined the UK to ever closer union within the EU.
At the time of the Masstricht Treaty, there should have been a single-issue referendum which would have allowed or denied such a massive constitutional surrender to Brussels at that time but alas, now it is too late unless Britain secedes from the EU by use of a single issue referendum now and as permitted under the Lisbon Treaty.
The real problem for the British people is that there are only ever likely to be two or three major political parties that have the wherewithall to govern the UK on all matters and not single-issues such as the Environmemt, Devolution, Nationalism or what have you.
None of the three major parties is willing to offer itself to the electorate on a platform of withdrawal from the UK or for promising the holding of an "in or out of the EU" referendum so the British electorate never do have an election choice on change to our unwritten constitution being continously eroded away as further transfer of powers to the EU let alone continued membership of the EU continues unabated form one Parliament to the next.
My contention would be that a referendum on membership of the EU would be the right course of action for the UK NOW but we should not tie future generations to the decision of this one-off referendum being irrevocable and that is where the unwritten constitution of the UK would allow for future referenda to be held to revisit the question at some later date.
With a written constitution, no such future choice might be possible, thus limiting the choices made today to be perpetual ad infinitum . What we, in the UK, need to balance this unwritten constitution is real choice between political parties but instead we get centerist, wishy-washyness and horrible sameness about all of the three major parties.
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@MarcusAureliusII
'All Greece thought about was the free handouts it was going to get from the other richer EU members.'
This is a stereotype, you are generalising dangerously and it is not true IMHO but anyway.
As Greek PM said many times, it is clear that we will pay collectively for the mistakes of the people who governed us, for their bad deeds, severe cuts of salaries, collapse of the social system, investigations on who is to be blamed for fudged the books etc. The process started. This goes without saying. I don't accuse anybody about these. We will pay! period. We will become poor very poor, we will suffer! What else would you like me to say? As far as Greece's particular predicament is concenrned I accuse nobody.
However, there is a wider problem IMHO. It was said by others (not me but I agree) that the people of other countries who (supposedly or really, I would say really) did not do what Greece do suffer (in EU and outside EU). If you think that they do not suffer and everything is fine outside EU then fine. You have a point. But there were posts about the difficulties of Britons and Germans and Colombians and others. I believe that the people around the world get a bad deal from the current system which is in favour of unethical gamblers. This is my wider view.
Thus there two separate issues: Greece (I do not say Portugal, Italy, Germany or any other country, I say only Greece, there is no point to say that others did the same, in any case I don't know, I hope we agree, it is only Greece period, as you say Greeks have to see in the mirror) and its particular problems within the same system as everybody else which has to face (how? by becoming very poor, we have no money what can we do? it's our politicians fault and ultimately our fault)
and possibly a wider issue with the system.
I say the wider issue is more important. This was what I discussed. Casino capitalism and gambling will affect all of us inside the EU or outside EU sooner or later.
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IMHO on the wider issue the problem is the casino capitalism which needs serious reform, not the EU. EU should bring people together. It's a good project. I know that it goes against the current climate. I know this prefectly well. However, this is my long term view.
So in the end I blame the UK for inventing capitalism! :-) (humoristic touch, do not take it literally!)
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@MarcusAureliusII
For Greece the main gain in the EU is security not money. Our neighborhood is very volatile and we are a small poor nation with a very wide coastline. If you say that this was the thought at the back of our minds, I would agree!
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Vassilly;
"However, there is a wider problem IMHO. It was said by others (not me but I agree) that the people of other countries who (supposedly or really, I would say really) did not do what Greece do suffer (in EU and outside EU). If you think that they do not suffer and everything is fine outside EU then fine. You have a point. But there were posts about the difficulties of Britons and Germans and Colombians and others."
The others did much worse. Greece was just greedy wanting something for nothing. These others in Europe were jealous and vindictive. They wanted to "challenge America." Don't you recall all those speeches by the likes of Chirac, deVillepin, Schroeder less than a decaade ago? They wanted a "bipolar world." I think they've got it, Europe IS bi-polar. They've gone from the manic to the depressive state where they will likely stay for a long time. It seems to me what they have really challenged is fate. Fate won.
Why would anyone outside the EU suffer. The US is Europe's competitor. As Europe goes down, America will go up. Challenge accepted, challenge met, challenge defeated. Had America deliberately devised a plan, an economic weapon to bankrupt Europe it could hardly have succeeded more brilliantly. Europe is finished. It has jumped over the cliff, all that remains is to watch it fall.
BTW, last time I looked, Britain was part of the EU. Funny how anti-American sentiment in Europe is waning now that it is desperate for a parachute. Sorry, nobody here anymore. We're fresh out of parachutes anyway. We'll need the last one for ourselves.
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Mendacious;
"The beauty of the unwritten constitution NOT restricting future Parliaments to the choices made by previous Parliaments is that constitutional change remains fluid and momentous decisions such as continued membership of the EU are not made irrevocable."
The beauty of it is that only an Eton/Oxford educated elite can interpret the runes, say what it means. And it means whatever they want it to mean at any given time. Not being written down in plain language anyone can understand, nobody can know if the government has violated their rights. Being fluid means that expediency will always win out over principle. However, the way I've heard it, there is a written constitution of sorts for Britain that is not one document per se. It is a collection of bits here, pieces there, jumbled together like a hodgepogde, a porridge. The Law Lords or whatever they are called interpret the runes the way ancient Rabbis mused and pondered over the meaning of the Talmud. Britain's government and society is an anachronism if ever there was one. Nobody seems to mind or care though. If they did, they are either quiet about it or left the country already. 10% have according to BBC some years ago.
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Hehe MA2
You got it wrong ... again.
President Chirac never said anything like your claims. He simply recognized that the world was gearing back towards a multipolar situation.
One where regional powers have the last word on issues regarding their neighbourhood.
In short, he was a realist.
On the other hand, many americans were still under the illusion that the US was a unipolar power (a "can-do-it-all-alone", "god-given-right-to-do-whatever-mess"). If it ever was one.
And clearly, some still harbours the hubristic illusion of it.
Best regards,
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MA-II: "It reminds me of an Italian saying which has it that revenge is a dish best enjoyed cold. Our forefathers who fled Europe often in fear of losing their lives if they stayed are smiling in their graves.
Well, if you look into such proverbs further, you might come across a Chinese one "He who seeks revenge should remember to dig two graves". So if you people take revenge on us Europeans, the Chinese will be the undertakers.
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# 115. At 1:28pm on 27 Feb 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
"As for Mickalus, I don't get the impression he comprehends the depth of the UK/England disquiet over a union with Europe that has not been voted on for almost 40 years...!"
Actually this isn't true. I know a great many English people who express a wide range of emotion on the matter - from "necessary evil" to utter revulsion at the whole concept. I also know a wide variety of English people who are quite comfortable with the concept, quite apart from Scots, Welsh, Northern Irish and Cornish, and whatever other nation.
It might further interest you to know that the Murdoch press in both jurisdictions take quite different lines on reporting Europe. Many, specifically English, people I know who chose to work and settle in Ireland are very frequently taken aback at the difference in this content, and feel public opinion in the UK is being "vigourously massaged" or "managed" especially in this matter. I don't suggest the Irish press is not also managing opinion, but my English friends in particular find the dichotomy between Murdoch stable staples highly suspicious.
"It is also clear Mickalus, though he says he has sympathy with concerns over the EU, thinks the EU will change to suit Citizens' wishes: The 'referendum' idea, moving towards 'Swiss/Canadian' systems etc. being typical of this wishful thinking!"
I have sympathy with the aspirations you espouse - the EU is far from perfect. I do believe however, that it represents a far better alternative to a Europe without it. I believe that this was one of the compelling reasons the UK, Sweden, Finland and Austria eventually left the EFTA. Indeed, given that the UK founded the EFTA as a counterweight to the then EEC, and promptly left it when EEC/EU membership was a viable alternative perfectly underscores the point, I believe.
I believe the Union will have no choice but to suit our wishes - all half billion of us. The lesson the Union has to learn from the Lisbon referenda in Ireland is that it will have to listen, explain and change when required to by the electorate. And it must, as long as our Constitution requires us to assent to further pooling of sovereignty.
I'll make a deal with you. Let's wait five years and see what happens. I'll happily eat my words if I'm incorrect.
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@ Marcus:
I'm not against a Union between us europeans, I'm against the Union we now have. You are absolutly right, there is no union between the people, we know nothing about each other, we don't listen to each other's music, we don't watch each other's movies, those who are in their teens now often don't want to learn other's languages. When I was at their age, and that's not looong ago everyone learnt at least 2 foreign languages, in many cases we learnt 3-4 foreign languages, now they think "oh, why should I learn italian, french, russian, spanish etc., it's enough to know some english, I don't want to go to Poland, Italy etc. anyway." French was, together with english, the most popular foreign language in Germany for the last decades, last week I read that now only 21% of German pupils still learn French. I mean you as a proud US-citizen will be happy as they all concentrate on US-movies, US-music etc. without paying much attention on what they are doing in the countries around them. But to create a union of the people that's not enough. A few month ago a friend from Spain visited me here and he was wondering why there was no spanish music on the radio and why they don't sell books from spanish authors in the shops. And I asked him: And what about the other way? How present is Germany in Spain, I mean apart from Hitler and WWII? This union is of pure economic nature and therefore it is a projet of the elite, created for big buisness and large corporations but not for the ordenary citizen, even less, we don't even have a say on anything. And to prevent that Mathiasen comes around to tell us "Yes, but they voted the parliament so their will is represented...": I guess everyone here knows that the war in Afghanistan is highly unpopular in Germany, around 80% of the population are against it. Yesterday there was a vote in our federal parliament about sending more troops to Afghanistan. There was only one party in this parliament who voted against it, and as they did they mentioned the names of each single Afghan who was killed in the Kundus attack a few month ago, more than 100 persons, all civilians, the fault of our beloved army because they wanted at least to remember these victims. What happend to them? They were all thrown out, the only party in the federal parliament that represents the vast majority of the population on the Afghanistan issue just thrown out because they remembered the names of the people that were killed in our names. This is how we are represented, in terms of Europe, in terms of Afghanistan, in terms of the banks etc.
A few weeks back I read another article in a newspaper which said that the european integration was too important to let our elite (the economy and the politicians) decide over it.
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@ 223 Nik (previous article)
I agree with most of your arguments concerning the US/UK political support of Turkey and the lack of enough support for Greece from other EU countries like France & Germany.
Kemalist Turkey still does not meet the western standards for a secular & democratic society which would guarantee equal rights to all existing ethnic groups. Its foreign policy is that of a former empire, i.e. based on the Muslim religion in terms of values & cultural traditions and on the well developed defence system which can quickly be transformed into a successful war machine with no equivalent power in the region. One could quickly deduct from the present situation in South Eastern Europe that the status quo of the late 70-ies of the last century is totally destroyed, namely, Russia is no more the leading power in the region and Turkey is taking full advantage of the open vacuum in order to establish some kind of a political hegemony, based on the new ratio of the armed forces, I mean those of Turkey and those of the non-NATO countries.
I would split the problem into two different parts:
1) The evident lack of enough democratic achievements in the Turkish society;
2) The obvious lack of unified defence system of the EU and the consequent dependence of the EU from the US military cooperation within the NATO defence structures.
Russia is also trying to take some advantage of the present situation, but in this particular case, she’s using another type of political weapons: the energy transporting means such as the South stream project, the Burgas-Alexandropulus pipe, the Nuclear plant project on the Belene Island (on the Danube river) etc. Turkey is counteracting with the Nabuko project, etc., etc.
I assume it is in the interest of Greece & Bulgaria to accelerate the entry of the countries of the Western Balkans into the EU and to maintain well balanced relations with Russia and Turkey, based on the mutual economic interests. And, if God permits (I mean if the europeans support the idea as the most successful alternative), our grand children could enjoy another peaceful reality based on some kind of independent European defence pact (the dream of late General de Gaulle). It is high time for all of us to reconsider this problem with the proper attention and responsability … But who cares?
For the time being, we are CONDEMNED to maintain the NATO defence structures, no matter whether it would please to our orthodox folks or not…
Shall appreciate your comments friend. Regards.
Sofia, Febr.27th 2010 Generalissimo
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smroet;
"Well, if you look into such proverbs further, you might come across a Chinese one "He who seeks revenge should remember to dig two graves". So if you people take revenge on us Europeans, the Chinese will be the undertakers."
You miss the irony of it all, what makes it so beautiful. America didn't seek revenge, events happened all on their own independent of it. All I said was that it could not have done better had it actually tried. Europe has nobody to blame but Europe. Americans dug a deep financial hole for themselves for reasons that had nothing to do with Europe. Europe admired it so much they dug an even deeper one and now while America will struggle to somehow climb out of it eventually, Europe won't. Not in any recognizable form it's in today. At least that is how I see it. Europe copied the greed of American bankers turned loose and unprotected from their own kind. Europe multiplied the idea. That is the source of the current crisis. But as I pointed out before, Europe's structural incongruity would have done it in eventually anyway. This crisis merely sped it up. It not only brought it on sooner but much faster, too soon and fast for anyone to think of a clever way out even if there was one and they had the brains to see it and use it.
Americans have nothing to fear from China. China is not the economic powerhouse it appears to be superficially. Not only is its GNI only about an eighth of America's with 4 1/2 times as many people, it depends heavily on free access to American markets to survive. One bold stroke such as a boycott and China would be toast.
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Tortilein @112
I also thought democracythreat's estimation is close to reality, even before you wrote :o)
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Further to your wording, Gavin,
“What prompted the outburst was German criticism that Greece had been irresponsible with its finances and had faked its accounts. The mood in Germany is hard-set against helping out or bailing out the Greeks.”
I do not think that the mere tone of this article is productive to the cause of our union. One could assume that the member states that are outside of the Euro zone are lucky to have their own currencies as some kind of shield against the devaluating Euro. It is not true of course because the bigger part of the EU budget is in Euro and we should agree that all of us are more or less concerned with the problem.
Second, I do not think that the Greek reaction, namely that of Mr Pangalos, remembering the Nazi occupation by saying that: "they shouldn't complain so much about stealing..." is the best example of both diplomacy and solidarity. The mere existence of the EU is based on the principle of recognition the equality and the mutual respect of all the member states. If we go back in history every time when some big problem arises, if we start showing the monsters of the last war in order to gain some temporary advantage, then, we should not wait for long to see how the present achievement of our (European) civilization will gradually fall apart, much to the satisfaction of other non European nations.
Sofia, February 27th 2010 Generalissimo
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@MarcusAureliusII
For UK, I got confused between EU and Eurozone. UK is not in Eurozone. I do not agree with your analysis, I am more closer to the analysis of Tortilein. System made for big business, bankers, speculators and the like and not for common citizens. The new project should be EU for the people not traders. I have not sensed that the anti-American sentiment (for policies not people) in Europe is waning now. I don't think it will wane if US continues to pursue such wars...
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Vasilly;
"I have not sensed that the anti-American sentiment (for policies not people) in Europe is waning now. I don't think it will wane if US continues to pursue such wars..."
Oh really? What do you think will happen if the US attacks Iran or Israel attacks Iran with US backing? Think it through.
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@227 MarcusAureliusII (ref. made to your post from the previous article)
I feel sad and humiliated by your wording. I have addressed Alice as one of her sincere admirers. You shouldn’t interfere in this unkindly way...
Generalissimo
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I see the anything European hater is back... again.
Must be paid to do it.
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IF;
The previous thread only has 259 postings. Could you give me a hint? I've looked at the last four of them and the only one I could find on 277 was about the conspiracy about the Euro where WA wanted to know how Russia could win at the olympics. I gather she didn't like my first suggestion.
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MA-II,
I caught the irony, thank you, but could not help throwing the Chinese proverb at you. Currently, the USA is indeed ahead. But part of the USA GNI is made up by essentially unproductive services, such as those provided by your speculative bankers. The Chinese catch up quickly on the real stuff, and do much more research and development now than 10 years ago. The USA still attracts bright young people from all over the world to do the R&D, but that might diminish if the offering in China is more attractive. True, it won't happen overnight, but who knows where we stand 20 years from now?
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Ironfranco
Re #132 and #129
"..I do not think that the mere tone of this article is productive to the cause of our union.."
It is your right to be concerned and critical of the content of an 'article' you do not agree with: However, if the BBC is to at least appear to be impartial in delivering news and opinion then there is no reason at all for Mr Hewitt to write in a positive manner just to suit the 'pro-EU'.
As for this being 'our union', well, if only it were!
'Our' implies the 500,000,000 Citizens have a voice: If you could point to the voice other than Eire for the Lisbon Treaty which fundamentally altered the authority and power base within the EU directly in favour of Brussels, please do so.
'Our NATO' as a 'union' for Military defence has served your political union very well for over half a Century and as you whinge and whine about it make no mistake your EU exists and thrives because of those years of alliance - - You 'condemn' it if you must, but there are many of us in both 'unions' who would prefer NATO over an EDF or a Brussels adminstration any time in the century ahead.
'European civilisation' is not just 'ours'; it is drawn from centuries of experience, thought and effort across the World.
Hence, nations such as the UK do incline towards supporting Turkey's application for membership (much as the UK pushed for the Scandinavian States) because at the higher political-business-economic level there is an argument for opening up another vast internal market-area.
The 'our' you refer to is confined to what is in the interest of the Greek State at this time.
It is amazing to read how you consider the EU brand of civilisation as something out of the ordinary when in reality the EU is just a rather more cunning political version of the usual cobbled-together, power-centralising, money-making exercise more typically known as an Empire!
Personally, I would vote for the UK/England to quit the 'empire' as soon as possible and if Ithought Turkish Membership would bring 'our' exit closer I would have Turkey seated at Brussels tomorrow. Unfortunately, that is my 'UK interest' view of the EU.
A view, much like the Greek one, it is unacceptable in a truly 'our union' mentality, but then as I don't think that is ever possible to achieve across 27, 28, 29 etc. States it explains why rule from Brussels (European) is 'uncivilised'.
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136. At 8:00pm on 27 Feb 2010, Doctuer_Eiffel wrote:
"I see the anything European hater is back... again.
Must be paid to do it. "
EUpris: I doubt if he gets paid as much as the despicable, anti-democratic people who rammed the Lisbon Treaty rubbish down our throats.
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132. At 7:24pm on 27 Feb 2010, ironfranco wrote:
" ... The mere existence of the EU is based on the principle of recognition the equality and the mutual respect of all the member states. ..."
EUpris: It is based on contempt for the rights of the British people.
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Tortilein, you are an ab-normal German - nice. :o)))))
May be, think better, you aren't really German?
Otherwise, a Russian concludes, from the Eastern side in the past. As minimum.
Don't even answer :o))) - ought to be one or the other :o))))
I don't hear in you this iron step patented, the annoying "we know better". Even Jukks has more of it.
With the Treptow park - I think that's the best and most practical Germany's acquisition from Russian years. Ugly in Soviet architecture nearby and all - anyway it's like a shield for Germany, and will serve, as a shield, come any reminders of the dismal past.
Like, "See? A big statue. swastika trampled down. Huge size, for the blind. It is squeezed into the ground, cut. Go, admire - all who wish to complain."
This memorial complex will do you a better service than you thought :o))))
And it is of course, an Eastern Germany in-put, into the combined Germany. Can't imagine the Western part doing any thing of the kind :o)))), by own will :o)))) Huge trampled swastika-s - simply forget about it :o)))) And Russian in-put.
I wish someone imposed something this big on us, in relation to Stalin. Picturesque, and size speaking for itself, for the blind. Showing the proper place of the tyrans, of the past.
On the overall reconcilliation, honestly time won't come soon when Russians think that Germans are good. Russia and Jewish are two biggest stake-holders, how to say, creditors, holding the grudges. Can't think why all others complain at all :o)))), compared to us two - trifles :o)))
But can see a consensus, in the old Soviet style, as I am older than you are, and a product of the USSR. We were explained that half Germans are good and half Germans are bad, and got used to live with the idea :o)))))
Namely, that the bad ones were the rich ones who started the war, capitalists, because normal ordinary people don't have money around the house, turn out all the pockets and empty all the purses in your house (and clay pigs :o))) - an ordinary working person, be it a German or whoever - won't find money to run a war. Too expensive for normal people an idea.
Accordingly, in 1945, as it was explained in the USSR, rich Germans who started the war ran away and took care to surrender to friendly capitalists from the USA, while poor Germans didn't ran over to quickly fall into the embrace of the freindly American army :o))) but stayed where they were or at home. And those good poor ones, who didn't want to fight the war , in the first place - happened to be exactly "our good Eastern Germans".
I think that was a brilliant USSR explanation, making Russians able to live with the Eastern Germany in a kind of alliance, and not at eacch other throats after the war. An ingenious propaganda tool, to tell where is what and how it is that "our Germans - are good and were good".
And those Western ones - are rich and were rich, and , naturally - war-mongering, bad.
Anyway, whatever it had to do with the reality :o)))) it made Russians reconciled with 1/2 of Germany, which is not bad.
The chap in the monument is holding a German girl in hands, already beginning of friendship with the new German generations. very sumbolic and all. Some wars like that one, I am afraid , do require some big monuments.
The Treptow one, by the way, is relatives to the Stalingrad big one, Motherland calling, same architect/sculptor.
And, by the look of how it goes :o)))) not far is the time when only these 2 will stay in the world marking the war, will be soon a rarity as Egyptian pyramids. :o)))) I view it already as a rarity, and recommend you the same approach. Deficit. :o))))
I mean, all took to tumbling down war memorials put up by Russians in the 14 other USSR countries so energetically, marking "the end of the Russian empire-Soveit Empire - whatever" era, take Tallinn, Georgia, whoever. That indeed these 2 big ones soon will be an awful deficit :o)))
Georgians, by the way, were totally mad, that is, their Saakashvili, because they did fight that war, and fought at a huge loss, and are proud of their braveness, etc. But the main thing is that their monument was real good, some forward-looking sculptor was able to foresee that Soveit memorabilia won't be in fashion forever :o))) and managged to do a big thing totally avoiding red banners, stars, hammer and syckle or whatever - but did it totally in 15th century style, Georgina nature scenes, various leoprad skins as their old knights wore, tossed around here and there, various animals, and a horse statue of a 15th century Georgian knight, in that time attire. No rifles, Kalashnikovs :o))) tanks or whatever.
Just, in the style of the medieval knight braveness, approximately.
Why they somersaulted that one, and really good-looking one, romantic and soft, kind of - is beyond me entirely.
Anyway.
So Russians agree that 1/2 Germans are nice. But that's the max, I'm afraid :o))) So far.
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@128 Tortilein
Well said. I may subscribe under the same assessment as if it has been made here, in Bulgaria. In the old days we learned much Russian, French and German. Our youngsters here are now learning only English ever since the age of 5. As a matter of fact the English definitely won the language battle in united Europe. In a way, I consider this phenomenon as a logical result of the inevitable economic integration here. However, we are condemned to live together within the EU, a requirement that is compelling us to have more knowledge of each other; I mean to be better acquainted with the cultural traditions of all European nations. If we succeed doing so, maybe we shall be more successful to come to some more civilised understanding of how to rule our union, i.e. what to expect from our elected representatives in Brussels...
Sofia, Febr.27th 2010 Generalissimo
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@ Tortilein (106)
I do not blame you for not wanting to know more about the German Nazi past, dishonesty is what upsets people whether from the Greek authorities as we have learned about in recent days or from anybody else. You have been telling us here a few things about German reality as you experience it. Germany as such is not the subject of this blog but it would perhaps be appropiate to divulge a few more facts seeing that some contributors are quite understandably not up to date. For instance someone assumes that Germans are willing taxpayers etc. Well as you must know the opposite is true. But it goes of course much further as Herr Ondracek (lovely Czech name that) the head of the taxecollectors union has been saying for years: Germans at a certain higher level get away with taxevasion because that is the political will! Tax returns at that level do not get checked very much for lack of tax inspectors, he says 1000 additional inspectors would raise the tax income considerably. There are even instances where inspectors get taken off cases. All this is public knowledge. Then there is the issue of the tax evaders Swiss bank accounts, not to forget Liechtenstein. (For those that have a hankering for more history knowledge: Konrad Adenauer, the great German Chancillor had an account in Lichtenstein apart from keeping a lot of cash in his office for those little "life necessities" of a politician.)
You also mentioned that there are 82 Million people living in Germany these days. This figure on it's own can lead to misunderstandings since this includes not only Germans. 19 per cent are either foreign or of foreign descent. Then there is the steady decrease that seems unavoidable. Germany is in fact a net "exporter" of indigenous Germans of well over 100 000 last year alone. The eastern part of Germany has now 13 million inhabitants, I make this a loss of about 3 million since 89. This total is expected to drop to 8 million by 2060! The total in Germany is expected to drop to 65 million by then. Ten years from now, France, it is said, will pass Germany in number of inhabitants. I am sure that many contributors will welcome this and look forward to a more modest Germany.
Gracias a dios, diria yo!
Saludos
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And it's not about "forgivance". I am afraid we don't do well on it :o)))
The lay-out, in the Russian mind, is that 1/2 of Germans were initially not guilty, not wanting to attack us, poor, ordinary people, made to.
Accordingly, there is nothing to forgive, because they didn't do much wrong, WELL - as the beatuful Russian fairy-tale goes :o))) - in the first place.
The only problem we have now is you got so much mixed up :o))))) in your Germany, that it is becoming difficult to recognise "our good ones" :o))))
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To: Menedemus, post#119
CC: MarcusAureliusII, posts#123,#124, Mickalus post#102
From: viewcode
Re: practicability of a written UK constitution
Menedemus, thanks for the reply. UK governance is off-topic re this board subject (Greece vs German views on the Eurocrisis) so I'll try to make this brief. I agree with your paras 2,3,7,8,9&10 but disagree/partly disagree with the others. Referendum-sanctioned decisions are not fixed in perpetuity, and the same subjects can be revisited: Ireland's had *two* referenda on adopting FPTP (both failed), abortion (both failed), Treaties of Nice (second succeeded) and Lisbon (second succeeded). Additionally, contending that they are impracticable fails to consider that *yes*, other countries do do them, and quite successfully: it's not a practicality issue. It's not clear cut: the UK isn't the only country not to have a constitution and parliamentary supremacy does have some advantages (I could make quite a long list). But, hand on heart, if asked in court whether an untrammeled-but-infinitely-flexible Parliament or a Parliament-restrained-by-constitution-and-referenda was better, I'd go for the latter.
Mickalus and MarcusAureliusII make a good point (although the latter expresses it counterproductively): the UK governance system is so different from others as to invite closer inspection, and I think it fails in certain respects.
Lastly, let me leave you with this. During the Irish Lisbon II referendum, the treaty was nitpicked and pored over in fine detail: the populace was politically engaged, the implications understood. Ireland gets indepth analysis and popular involvement. The UK gets "Question Time" and David Dimbleby, Farage acting like a three-year old, and Lisbon going thru on the nod. Serious question: who do you think did it better, them or us?
Regards, viewcode
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You can't really tell about people when things are going well. They are all smiles and pleasantries. It's only in a tough situation that people show you what kind of stuff they are really made of. And this is such a time for Europe.
That Germans threw up Greece's culture of not paying taxes and its corruption all of which was known to them when they along with 14 other memebers agreed that Greece should be granted admission to the EU was a bit of a surprise. But for Greece to throw up Germany's Nazi past that ended 65 years ago seemed particularly vicious even to me. I didn't know these facts, only what kind of people Europeans are based on dealing with them over a lifetime and observing them including on their home turf.
Here's some more, thanks to a poster on another BBC blog ukwales. Is this really typical of the UK's attitude towards the EU superstate? How ironic that in the past I've chosen the name Nigel to refer to the ordinary anyman from England whenever I needed to just pick a one that sounded unmistakably and quintessentially English to me;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY&feature=related
Hey, if you people are going to keep this up, you'll have me glued to my TV set and the internet. This kind of entertainment doesn't come around much here except when Amy Goodman is on WBAI or Rush Limbaugh is on WABC. But then they are just media pundits, this is someone who actually represents Britain's government.
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@ vassilis:
"the problem is the casino capitalism which needs serious reform, not the EU."
But it is also the EU which represents parts of this capitalism. They want open and liberate markets without any interference of the state.
I can only give you an example which could be funny if people hadn't to suffer from it. In Germany we had or we still have the "Deutsche Post", the "German Post". It was a state-run buisness, they came to deliver the post in the morning or the afternoon, once a day, there were post offices where you could buy stamps and send letters etc. The people who worked there were perfectly able live with the money they earned. Then the EU came and said that this would be against EU-law, that the state could no longer have the monopole on postal services. Okay, the state lost it's monopole, and now we have dozens of some larger, mostly smaller enterprises that deliver the post. Now I receive post about 10 times a day, also during the night but as there are so many enterprises that are on the postal market none of them can really survive. They pay slave salaries to their workers, nobody can live with the money they earn. Most of the post office run by formerly "Deutsche Post" have closed, it is sometimes a nightmare run to get a bigger package they weren't able to deliver when you haven't been at home and they had to take it with them.
The EU also has to change, the freedom of the markets leads to everyone of us to be unfree. The extreme freedom of the markets without interference of the state made the banks so greedy and at the end collapse, but the EU stands for all that.
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Generalissimo and Mavrelius, don't quarrel because of me :o))) and Cssandra, and sure ways to win the Olympics :o))) and all.
"Without interruption, the crazy gal
Was screaming" "I clear see the Troy, fallen into ashes!"
But future-tellers, likewise, evidence of the events :o)))
In all the ages, people used to burn up on fires.
Throughout the history, people burn such folk up, on high fires." :o(
Vysotsky, of course.
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147. At 8:42pm on 27 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"But then they are just media pundits, this is someone who actually represents Britain's government."
Perhaps less vituperative commentary and more basic research from you in future. He's an elected representative.
What have you done for anyone lately?
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The general director of the European office for statistics, Walter Radermacher, says to Sueddeutsche Zeitung that EU governments are responsible for the crisis in Greece. Already in 2004 and 2005 there were problems with the data from Athens. A proposal from the EU commission to increase the office’s control possibilities was not completely supported by the national governments and therefore the control could not be implemented, Rademacher explains.
In the meantime the media are making a very comlex description of the economic situation and the transactions, which have increased Greece’s deficit.
German television (ARD) has made an interview with Otmar Issing, a former member of the European Central Bank. He says that EU authorities should not provide Greece any financial help, and refers to the Maastricht treaty, which says that each country is responsible for its own economy. His proposal is to let IMF assist Greece. For Germany it would have two advantages: It would not have to bail out Greece, and secondly the political claims for changes in the Greek budget would come from IMF and neither Brussels nor Berlin.
How Berlin - and Brussels - will react on the present arguments from Athens remains to be seen, but it occurs to me to be quite predictable that a bail out will involve at least the entire Euro zone and will not be isolated to Germany.
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As to sure ways to win Olympics (well. unless the Greek do some urgent praying for us, by the Olympus mountain :o))) Before Sochi)
(where is the mountain now? can it be it ended up in Turkey?!!!)
Mavrelius, I of course give credit to your suggestions to nuke the whole Europe as competition, or what else clever you put forward :o))), gas them out away off :o)))) or - what was it? apply poisoned KGB umbrella-s :o)))), etc.
but I think if we urgently transferred Sochi to more proper place type Krasnoyarsk - no Lychachek will do even a single turn around, in an open skating rink there, hockey medal will end up where it is proper :o))) as well, and, basically, the Olympics in Siberia will look real good, real Northern, wingtery and sporty. The un-wintery nations will fall out between the airport annd the hotel :o)))) before the opening ceremony .
Which will serve as a natural selection process as well. :o))))
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@MAII 137
I have referred to your post 227 not to 277.
IF
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Here, as a gulp of fresh wind.
"I will take you to the tundra, I will take you to the snows
and we'll? dashing-ly break out - right into the Polar sun-rise
You will know that it's silly to call the North the globe's limit
You will see - the North's un-limited - I shall give it all to you!"
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@ironfranco
I did not like the tone of the article also but oh well... I cannot complain about everything... :-) it is not good time for Greeks to complain about anything! :-) Take it all on the chin is what it is requested from me and my compatriots although I pay my tax, I am not corrupt, I work hard, but anyway life is unfair. It is not the end of the world. This land has seen much much much worse.
If financial situation becomes very difficult I will start cultivating my garden as my grandparents did during ... ops!! don't mention the .... don't mention the ...
Fresh vegetables. Traditional mediterranean diet . Good for my waistline :-)
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Mavrelius, dial in you tube Kola Beldy.
That will be our Russian aboriginal, of the North. Singing " I will take you to the tundra, throw bear's white skins - to your feet!"
The old video is surrealistic totally :o)))) a TU-34 airplane, in colour, Kola Beldy is inviting his girl-friend to the North!
"We shall go, we'll be dashing, in the deer sleigh, in the frosty morning!"
2:44 minutes.
That's Russian Olympic games future aboriginals - much better voices :o))) than their Canadian relatives!
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@148. Tortilein
Agree 100%
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151. At 8:58pm on 27 Feb 2010, Mathiasen wrote:
"How Berlin - and Brussels - will react on the present arguments from Athens remains to be seen, but it occurs to me to be quite predictable that a bail out will involve at least the entire Euro zone and will not be isolated to Germany."
I think I recall Jean-Claude Juncker from Luxembourg saying something to that effect just over a week ago. I'd speculate that the other 15 will make loans available to Greecem but conditional on the current government continuing to make financial adjustments, and that the IMF may be involved in oversight of these adjustments.
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'Already in 2004 and 2005 there were problems with the data from Athens.'
If I remember correctly the opposition then (current PM, socialist) also said that at the time but the EU effectively backed previous PM (conservative, incompetent, lost with landslide in the last election). Baroso was coming and helping the conservative party here in elections. Can I ask (or I will be out of line?) what EU did to protect me as a citizen from these neoliberal clowns? At least take some responsibility now and help to implement much needed changes. I want everybody to pay their taxes and not fudge the books.
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@ jablko:
Your figures are not correct, Germany's population is in decline but by now and for the next two or three decades it is only a small decline as the birth-strong (does this word exist in english?) generation is that of my parents, this generation is still working and will live at least another 20-30 years. When this generation dies Germany's population will be in real decline but not as strong as you want to make me believe. By 2060 it will decline to 70 million (if we get an immigration of 100.000 people per year) to 74 million (if we get an immigration of 200.000 per year). So I guess Germany's population in 2060 will be somewhere between 70 and 74 million people. If France wants to overtake Germany's population in the next 10 years they have to be quite buisy as it had to grow by 2 million people each year. Poor women, really!
And if you understood one of my posts as if I had defended german politicians or coperations, no way, that must have been a big misunderstanding.
How is it that you were allowed to write something in spanish, I tried it yesterday or the day before because I didn't know how to express something in english and they didn't publish me.
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Sueddeutsche Zeitung (South German Newspaper) has an interesting story in which the head of the "!EU" statistics thingy, Eurostat says that EU governments are partly responsible for the Greek disaster.
Already in 2004 mad2005 there were problems with data supplied by Athens. At that time, Eurostat asked for more powers in order to find out how they go the data. The EU-Commission had made a request to the national governments, but they had not agreed.
The Eurostat boss wants more powers.
That always want more powers. Whatever happens, they use it as an excuse to ask for more powers.
Leaving the "EU" is the solution.
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To: EUpris post#140, #141
From: viewcode
Re: ratification of Lisbon by UK
EUpris, I understand your frustration at the passage of Lisbon despite your sincerely-held objections. But it was not imposed on the UK by the entity known as the "European Union" (EU), nor by the institutions of the EU (European Commission, Parliament, Council), nor by the personnel of the EU (Barroso et al). It was imposed on the UK by the UK government, and freely. The UK government wasn't bribed, blackmailed, forced or coerced to do this. It did it because it thought it was a good idea. It thought it was a good idea because the Lisbon Treaty was *its* idea (along with the other 26 EU member states).
Three points to note:
1) The EU cannot reform itself.
The EU is a treaty organisation. The treaties are agreements between the 27 member state governments, collectively referred to as the EU-27. The EU-27 dictate the shape of the EU by consensus, horse-trading, realpolitik etc. The EU isn't involved in its own creation or evolution: its personnel may contribute ideas or arguements, but it's only advisory. Blaming the EU for Lisbon is like blaming yourself for your birth. Just as your birth wasn't your decision but a decision of your parents (Mr & Mrs EUpris), Lisbon wasn't the EU's decision but the decision of its parents (the EU-27).
2) The EU is not designed to serve the interests of the peoples of the European Union.
The EU is designed to serve the interests of the EU-27. Think of it as a sockpuppet with 27 arms up the sock. Many supporters of the EU and (arguably) all its critics miss this point. Unless its critics understand this they will always be frustrated because they will always attack the wrong target. Claiming the absence of a European demos omits the fact that there *is* a European demos - the heads of government of the EU-27 (admittedly, it's a small demos...;-)) Criticising Van Rompuy for not being popularly elected omits the fact that Van Rompuy *was* elected by the demos in question - the heads of government of the EU-27. Claiming that the EU is unpopular omits the fact that it is *staggeringly* popular amongst the demos in question - the heads of government of the EU-27.
3) The EU is staggeringly successful.
Because it serves the interests of its demos - the heads of government of the EU-27 - so well, other heads of governments are queuing to get in: Iceland and Croatia will be in in the next five years, and Turkey is trying hard. Even Papandreou, the head of government of Greece, doesn't want Greece to leave the EU, because being in the EU is in Papandreou's best interest.
I hope you get the point; the EU is not imposed on the peoples of the European Union by the EU. It is imposed on the peoples of the European Union by their own goverments.
Your hatred is misdirected, young Jedi...:-)
Regards, viewcode
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:o)
History lesson.
- Ivanov! What these gloomy figures tell you - 37. ? Think, Ivanov, think... Blast-out of the best country's human resources, de-moralisation of the society... Participants of the process, with tears on their eyes, recognising their mistakes ... So?
- I understood, Maria Ivanovna! 3:7 in Vancouver!
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:o)
"Here some say - "Our footballists are lazy, talentless, curved-legged :o)) ork-s"....
I watched the hockey.
Not so bad are our footballists!
:o)))))
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Russian Olympic hockey team coach; quote:
"What for all this moaning? Let's put a scaffold on the Red Square at once and kill the whole team!"
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if previous thread #227;
Where is your problem?
1. if to WA; "My heart is pure Slavic that is to say it is more sentimental and less rational (just like yours!)."
MAII to if; "Before you gloat too much about it, consider that when it comes to irrationality, the people who invented and run the EU have you beat ten ways to Sunday. Nobody is more irrational than they are."
Now here I'm telling you that you and WA are not the craziest people on the planet. Does that bother you? If it does, then Okay you and WA are the craziest people on the planet? Happy? Good, that is settled.
2. if to WA; "But, my brains are less sentimental and more pragmatic. This is maybe the fundamental difference between us. I stick to the western standards of living and behaving with other people."
MAII to if; "This is because you foolishly cling to the vain hope that somehow this will improve your life. But as Turandot told Calaph in the answer to her first riddle, hope..."espiranza"...leads to disappointment and disillusionment. What she left out was the ensuing bitterness, resentment, and cynicism about life. WA is smarter than you are. She understands this instinctively and shuns it. From a distance she sees its absurdity and just laughs at it."
Now here I am praising WA for being more sensible and realistic than you are. Where's your problem with that? Do you want me to tell you and her that she is stupider than you? OK, if that's what makes you happy, fine, she is. But she still seems better adjusted to life than you seem to me.
3.
if to WA; "You still live in your own world of poetry where there is little room for busyness and politics."
MAII to if; "In the EU pursuit of politics is futile. In Russia it is fatal. In America it is inescapable."
Who is to say what the best path to happiness and fulfillment in life is? We know the dangers of getting involved in politics in Russia. People wind up dead or in prison. Do you want me to tell WA to give up poetry and skating competition and take up politics. Okay, WA give it up. Run for office. Become a reporter and expose the crooks. Chase down the mafia. Reveal the crimes Russians commit in Chechnya. Change Russia and the world. Just tell your relatives to let me know when the funeral is, I'll send flowers.
And you if, you can run for office to. And when you are elected, you can raise money for the Bulgarian government by taxing yuogart and Bulgaria won't wind up like Greece.
There ironfranco, feel better now? All fixed.
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@ Alice:
Sorry to disappoint you, I'm german, even worse I'm West German.^^ Okay, my mother is colombian and probably she is responsible for the nice 50% of my character...haha
No, to be serious, the germans (at least the older generations, the youngsters are different) are the victims of this obedience which democracythreat mentioned, I would call it frustration, not meant to insult anyone if there are some older germans around here. They are simply not used to critize as during the Third Reich, and to a smaller extend also in East Germany, this could have meant your death quickly. Their parents weren't used to it, they (my parent's generation) are somehow used to it. But when you get to know them better they are nice people, they aren't simply obvious nice, you have to watch several times.^^
As this forum deals with the situation in Greece I must say that I admire this attitude to demonstrate and to say, or if necesary to scream, what bothers you, to tell the politicians to go to hell. I also love it how they moan about Germany, okay about our politicians, not about us ordinaries as we are also the victims. But someone must also tell our politicians where they belong to as in this country they don't do it, okay, I do but as I have no real say...
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@139 cool_¬brush_¬work
I appreciate your detailed answer; however, I reserve myself the right to comment what the BBC correspondents would publish here according to my personnel understanding of how all member states should coexist within the EU.
I have not the least intention to advocate the evident lack of enough humanity and efficiency of the bureaucratic, clumsy and arrogant (at times) Brussels institutions. The EU initially was established as an economic (not political) agreement which gradually has been transformed into what now has all appearances of being a political pact intended to rule all that multinational and multicultural entity we are accustomed to call Europe or the Old continent. It works however, and if God permits, some kind of a pro-European mentality is going to be shaped within the next decades, at least among the nations of the mainland.
What I argue is the evident stability resulting from the mere existence of the EU for all of us European folks, I mean after two devastating wars. This is what I allowed myself to name as being an “achievement” of our civilization, no matter how imperfect it may be. I agree with you that the European culture has been shaped for many centuries through the painful (at times) coexistence with other, non European cultures.
As to the EDF as being the eventual alternative to the NATO structures, I agree with you that the mere existence and the continuous development of the EU was possible only under the NATO shield (given the fact that Western Europe needed the US military cooperation and support when facing the Warsaw pact forces). This is an undeniable historic fact. But I shall permit myself to ask you whether the US evident leading role within the NATO political and military structures is always ‘tuned’ to our, pure European interests? To that matter I allow myself to presume that sooner or later we shall be compelled to reconsider the political role of NATO as a tool the US are using now in their own interest.
Sofia, febr.27th 2010 Generalissimo Franco
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:o)
They say that VVP (Putin), in the third period, instead of "Shay-bu", "Shay-bu"! ( a puck) was shouting Shoy-gu! Shoy-gu! (Minister of Extraordinary Situations' Handling Ministry)
They say that Patriarch Kirill first blessed the Russian Olympic team to Vancouver, and next - Janukovich inauguration for tsardom.
And a clever man would have first trained on hamsters.
:o)))))
An observation: The less medals the sportsmen bring home, the more jolly goe the parties in the Russian House in Vancover - our Feast - during the Plague!
Patriarch Kirill very well taught our Olympic team what is proper Christian humulity and non-resistance to Evil by violence.
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To: EUpris post#161
From: viewcode
Re: breadth of Eurostat competences
EUpris. Many people have commentated that Eurostat was "asleep at the wheel" regarding Greek statistics. This misunderstands the nature of Eurostat. Eurostat is a second-order statistical organisation: unlike the ONS (England&Wales), Central Statistics Office (Ireland), Statistics Finland (er, Finland) or the National Statistical Service of Greece, Eurostat does *not* create its own statistics: it compiles the statistics given to it by the member states and lays down standards. It does not have the power to make those member state statisticians give it truthful statistics.
If (as seems possible) Greece has been selling fibs by the yard, there was little Eurostat could do to stop it: the most it could do would be to go "Liar, liar, pants on fire" in Greek. Which apparently they did do (in a bureaucratic way), for all the good it did them. Eurostat's request for enforcement powers ("Freeze! Reach for your covariances, pilgrim!") is a valid response to the situation.
Regards, viewcode
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@ MarcusAureliusII None of Alexander the greats victims are asking for compensation so that negates that pathetic argument.
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@155 Vassilis
Thanks a lot for your comments. I shall sip some ouzo in your honour.
Sofia, febr.27th 2010 Generalissimo
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Micky;
"What have you done for anyone lately?"
I've taken the blindfold off your eyes. If you choose to keep your eyelids closed tight, that's not my problem. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
I'm curious to see how the Belgians react to the UK's representative who said that Belgium isn't even a country. Will they waffle on that? I understand that many of the Flemish and Walloons don't even speak each other's language. Maybe it isn't a country after all. But if not a country, then what is it? A mini EU? I didn't know about von Rumpoy calling the Brits fascists. They are starting to grab for each other's throats. Will it wind up as a free for all? We don't see much of that anymore since they stopped showing those old Western movies with the barroom brawls.
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georgethepartisan;
"MarcusAureliusII None of Alexander the greats victims are asking for compensation so that negates that pathetic argument."
Do you think the fact that they have been dead for over two thousand years might have something to do with it?
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Tortilein, "Colombian" - that is wonderful. Relieved to hear; that improves matters greatly !
:o)))))
If you don't mind, I can not, so much at once :o)))) I will think about you as Colombian, in the next few days, if you don't mind :o)))) and may be later on, gradually, I'll get used to the idea that you are West German :o))))
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In any real organization, any doubts about a nation's actual economic conditions would have been subject to an outside independent audit to determine the truth. But considering that the EU would not allow and could not pass such an audit on itself, it could hardly demand one be conducted on the Greek government and economy. Besides, that was never an issue. They had to be brought in to make the EU look bigger against the US. That was the bottom line. Now isn't it impressive looking? Five hundred million strong. Now if it only took in Pakistan and Bangladesh imagine how big it would look :-)
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or, say, abstractly "German". without getting puzzled, over that geography. Like, "in general", overall. Historically.
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@149 AliceInWonderLand @166 MarcusAureliusII
Alice, you are sweetheart!
Marcus, be quiet, everything is OK.
Generalissimo
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See, Mavrelius, I am "sweetheart" :o)
While you are - simply "OK"! :o)))))
____________
Tortilein, I also thought, see how un-reasinable it is, to be "an obedient" - Colombian!
:o))))
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Seriously, all people-s have some nation's defects, some weakness points, over which they are caught. By the governments :o)))) exploiting some national features, of the national character.
Far worse is that governments aren't exactly separatable from their nations :o) not because you can't, but because ? they are, nations, and governments, reflecting each other. Not 100% - luckily! :o)))))
(great luck) but, to a large degree - alas, they do.
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MA, I echoed back, your "fatal" observation, ab doing business in Russia. In the other thread, where you mentioned it. Gave a practical example :o). Next thing some kind soul referred me to the moderators - and I honestly think that is the best thing that happened to me lately. And hope it was done real quick :o)))
Because it's better to be referred here, to the moderators :o))))
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@139 cool_brush¬_work
“Personally, I would vote for the UK/England to quit the 'empire' as soon as possible and if I thought Turkish Membership would bring 'our' exit closer I would have Turkey seated at Brussels tomorrow.”
Further to my previous post 168, I would like just to comment the eventuality of that “another vast internal market-area” you are referring to. I think the result will be more disastrous to the EU than one can imagine. Turkey still does not meet the standards of the EU and it will take her another century to do it. In the mean time, you Brits can freely buy cheap real estate here and enjoy eight sunny months out of twelve, just by the walls of Asia.
Sofia, Bulgaria Generalissimo
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To our dear companion on this blog EUprisoner
Could you give us your considered opinion on what will be easier:
1) The UK to leave the EU
2) Scotland to leave the UK
Do you personally have any preference in what order such events should take place?
We shall all be "apple and pears" for your answer.
Regards
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173. At 10:30pm on 27 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"I've taken the blindfold off your eyes. If you choose to keep your eyelids closed tight, that's not my problem. There are none so blind as those who will not see."
Marky - My saviour and hero.
As for Mr. Farage - his attacks on Belgium rank up there with those in his party who attack women for working outside the home, and Greenpeace activists. Belgians are secure enough in their identity to know he makes a lot of loud and flatulent noise with hot air, in an effort to secure publicity in the UK media.
Rather like you, it seems to me ...
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/users/recover/reset?mno=bourne1%7C1267296567960%7Cdcdf18b7e76d9c19bb615a554132e4564e9ec9bf&target_resource=http%3A%2F%2Fidentity%2Fpolicies%2Fdna%2Fadult&ptrt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fblogs%2Fthereporters%2Fgavinhewitt%2F2010%2F02%2Fgreece_the_euro_and_the_nazis.html#comments
Best Wishes,
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It would appear from these contributions that Germany was the only country that has unleashed wars in Europe or the rest of the world. I think it is about time to put these events in their proper perspective. In the last 500 years of European history from say 1500 to 1900 it was the other European nations that indulged in constant warfare. The vicious colonial wars between Spain and England started a ruthless race between the powers of Holland, France and Portugal to spread their influence around the world and Germany which was then part of the Holy Roman Empire played little part in these except as mostly peaceful settlers in the new colonies (where would America be today without the industrious German farmers?) England and France were constantly at war during these centuries which indeed lasted until the defeat of Napoleon. The Spanish, French and English battled it out over possession of North America and the Spanish and Portuguese over the South. In fact in those centuries of colonial conquest the most murderous campaigns were organised against the poor natives of these countries and countless of their people exterminated or driven into exile or reservations. These colonial powers also sent millions of Africans as slaves into their new lands where they toiled in the most inhumane conditions for over 300 years and in many parts only recovered some sort of the freedom during the beginning of the 20th century. Germany again played little part in these events, so much so that during the 19h century it became known as the country of "Dichter und Denker" (Poets and Thinkers).
If one wanted to single out the most bellicose nation during those centuries then this would have to be Britain that has indulged in almost permanent warfare. The 15th and 16th centuries wars with the Spanish, then the Dutch, the 18th century with the French, the Americans and in fact the only wars on the continent they ever fought with the Germans were in the 20th century. The reason these last two wars were so deadly was that men had invented the most awful weapons to fight each other with, not just on land and sea but also from the air when all those lovely cities were destroyed and the whole of Europe exhausted and desolate.
And yet today the Germans are constantly urged to "confront" their past and pay reparations beyond what is humanly possible. Is Britain being asked to confront its demons and admit to murder and genocide? Have they ever apologised to the few descendants of the Tasmanians whom their settlers exterminated? To the aborigines of Australia, the Carribbean Indians whose land they stole and whose people they deported? To the American Indians whom they enslaved and the million of African slaves they shipped into the their new colonies to labour in their tobacco and cotton fields? (Most of their stately homes were built from the wealth these slaves created for them).
Have the French apologised to their former colonies and indeed to the Algerians whom they bullied and killed right until the 1950s. Do the Spanish confront their demons and apologise to the Indians in the "new world" of South America? What about the Americans who took over from the British and indulged in centuries of slavery and extermination of the Indians. When Britain invaded a country they called it building an Empire when Germany did it they called it invasion that must be punished.
And yet the world is still paying the price today for the mayhem these "empire builders" created. The unrest in Africa after that continent was ruthless partitioned, the middle east debacle that is still not at an end and the ongoing suffering of the Afghans and Iraqis. And we have yet to hear from the Russians for all the suffering they caused during the Stalin years . We hear lots of figures bandied about these days but isn't he supposed to have murdered 50 million people to Hitler's 20 million? And if so he couln't have done it on his own so have all his henchmen ever stood before a Nuremberg style of trial and have they ever paid any compensation to those they wronged? Thought not.
Those of us who welcomed the creation of the EU hoped for a New Golden Age. Don't lets throw it all away
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well I've seen Plushenko, Kawaguti and Asada I can go sleep.
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To: Mickalus post#185
From: viewcode
Re: Farage and UKIP
Mickalus, hi! Farage's diatribe needs to be put in context. Farage is the former head of the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP), a UK political party whose primary aim is to remove the UK from the EU. UKIP has had little success in elections to the UK Parliament, but has had considerable success in elections to the European Parliament, and Farage is one of its MEPs.
This electoral success to the European Parliament places UKIP in an exquisitely painful quandary. By taking their seats in Brus/bourg, UKIP MEPs gain money (the wages are good) and publicity for themselves and their cause. But the European Parliament cannot bring states into the EU nor eject states from it: the EU cannot reform itself. So UKIP cannot achieve their goals via the European Parliament: their presence there is literally pointless. Even worse, they do not practice abstentionism (leaving their seats empty) nor obstructionism (automatically voting against everything), so by actually participating in the political process at an European level, they are not even Eurosceptic any more.
So UKIP in general and Farage in particular have an existential dilemma.
Farage is attempting to resolve this by standing for election to the UK Parliament in the 2010 UK General Election: should he and sufficient of his cohort get elected to the UK Parliament then he has a chance to achieve his goals. Abusing Van Rompuy aids him in his goal of becoming a UK MP. But it is also an acknowledgement to himself that his EP career has been pointless. If he thought he had a chance to achieve his goals in the European Parliament via the normal political process (persuasion, horsetrading, etc) then he would not have acted so.
As for his chances of election to the UK Parliament, I genuinely don't know. There is a substantial proportion of the UK electorate that execrate the EU, so his diatribe would help him. But for those of us who believe that the point of politics is to achieve change, his diatribe was appalling: it wasn't intended to change the minds of his opponents nor gain allies, it was abuse - worse, pointless abuse - and achieved nothing. And to date, "achieved nothing" is a valid summary of his career. Hence his dilemma.
Farage's diatribe wasn't a call to arms. Farage's diatribe was a frustrated scream.
Regards, viewcode
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margaret howard,
"We hear lots of figures bandied about these days but isn't he supposed to have murdered 50 million people to Hitler's 20 million? And if so he couln't have done it on his own so have all his henchmen ever stood before a Nuremberg style of trial and have they ever paid any compensation to those they wronged? Thought not."
Why "to Hitler's 20 million"?
To Hitler's 28.5 million - in Russia only. Won't speak for others.
Which, I am sorry, was not in own Hitler's country, but in alien land. While Stalin and his men were mostly ruinous for us, Russians, or, let's say - The Russian Empire folk. An internal matter of Russians, largely.
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And I can hardly imagine "50 million". That'll mean every fourth, in the USSR of 200 million. ? Nobody noticed here every fourth man/woman vanishing, not even every 10th around.
And in your list of accusations you forgot Japan. From what I remember, the Japanese commander for China was convicted, in the course of "Nurenberg in Japan", as the war criminal. 30 million Chinese dead, in Japan's occupation.
He got 8 years of prizon, was released 4.5 years later "for good behaviour", and returned to political career. Was signing USA-Japan deal.
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margaret howard;
Barbaric aren't they? All of them. Apologized to all those countless foreign victims over all those centuries? Hah, what a joke. Just recently we found out they owe many of their own children an apology they haven't made for having sent them to a life of hellish abuse in Australia generations ago. When they wanted to know who they were, what became of their families back in England, they had no way to find out until recently by accident. Even their clothing and toys were taken away from them so that they would have no connection to their prior lives. It's all documented on BBC about a woman who made the discovery that is leading to reuniting families. Who are Europeans to crticize anyone else in the world? Did I say barbarians? Savages is more like it. It has taken America over two centuries of separation to diverge from them to get to where we are today. The two civilizations are not in any way comparable. That divergence continues to grow. To pretend that it doesn't exist for different reasons on either side of the Atlantic is to ignore the obvious. So few people are willing to recognize it let alone call a spade a spade that when they hear it, it makes them furious while when Americans hear its, some of them seem embarrassed by it.
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viewcode;
If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger;
"Farage's diatribe needs to be put in context. Farage is the former head of the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP), a UK political party whose primary aim is to remove the UK from the EU."
Which part of his "diatribe" is not true?
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To: MarcusAureliusII post#193
From: viewcode
Re: Farage and UKIP (cont from post #189)
MarcusAureliusII, hi! Which part of my *post* was not true?
Regards, viewcode.
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viewcode;
"Which part of my *post* was not true?"
The entire thesis that Farage is not to be taken seriously because he is not a membero of one of the three major parties that have conspired to control all political power in the UK. Don't try to compare the UK with the US. In the US members of Congress of both parties vote very independently reflecting their constituent views sometimes in direct conflict even with their own views as in the defeat of the McCain Kennedy immigration bill. In the UK there is severe punishment for an MP not going along with edict of the party leadership. They conform or else.
Farage is a sign that people in the UK are rebelling because the three main political parties do not reflect the collective will of the people. This hardly comes as a surprise to me because I concluded a long time ago that the UK is no democracy.
"Farage's diatribe wasn't a call to arms. Farage's diatribe was a frustrated scream."
At least it is a start and it drew some attention. It's better than the few feeble mewling voices we usually hear in opposition to will of the ruling British oligarchy. Who knows, one day the British population might rise up and overthrow the tyrants that control their lives. That would bring them up to the point where America was 234 years ago.
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To: MarcusAureliusII post#193, #195
From: viewcode
Re: Farage and UKIP (cont from post #189, #194)
MarcusAureliusII, hi! That was not my thesis.
Regards, viewcode.
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@MarcusAureliusII
'I concluded a long time ago that the UK is no democracy'
How did you come up with this conclusion great master MarkusAureliusII? with your analytical mind? Do you have any other conclusions that you would like to share with us? I am very curious. I think we can learn from you.
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Vaseline;
I suggest you read my many postings. They express my point of view on a wide range of issues.
How do I know the UK is no democracy? Look at the elements it lacks that are crucial to a democracy and what it has instead.
No written down constitution which can be easily understood by ordinary people so that they know what their rights are, what their government can and cannot do.
No separation of powers between the legislative and executive branches allowing for a concentration of power that cannot be challenged. Within this Parliament that combines both branches, those who are not at the pinacle of power must stay in line with what their leaders tell them or risk losing any chance for re-election or advancement.
An upper house of Parliament which can overrule the lower house, this upper house being restricted to an elite and not open to all in society.
An official state religion.
A ruling heridatory monarch as titular head of state.
An institutionalized aristocracy that perpetuates a class system which places them automatically in a position of high privilege.
A state owned electronic media organization which effectively monopolizes electronic communications and sets the agenda and tone of all public debate and therefore the acceptable range of views which have voice limiting the scope of public debate. For example there was no public debate on the EU, the EU constitution, or Lisbon which effectively in part ceded the people's sovereign domain over themselves to a foreign power unelected by them and unaccountable to them and which does not have their interests and welfare as its primary concern.
A government financial accounting system which is opaque to the public.
The list could go on but why bother. I've made my point clearly.
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@MarcusAureliusII Alexander the greats victim was the Persian empire, these countries still exist(Iran,Afganistan.etc.)And the fact that the Persian empire invaded Greece twice before Alexander invaded it means they would not have a good case which once again proves your argument to be a pathetic one.
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MarcusAureliusII: Greece was not brought into the EU they are one of the original members, get your facts straight!
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Alice,
seems that you tried to defend Stalin. And I thought about the difference it could make whether the dictator that kills you is a foreigner or not. Sounds macabre, I know. I guess for me it wouldn't make any difference whether I was killed by, say Achmadi..., grrr, the president of Iran, I'm too lazy now to look up how this name is written, by his nuclear arsenal if he really is developing it what nobody really knows, or by another lunatic austrian who wants to become german head of state, or by a german.
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#200
Please note that Greece entered the EEC as 10th member state in 1981, 7 years after the colonel's regime fell. It was the second enlargement of the EEC. Greece started profiting from the Common Agricultural Policy right away. When Spain and Portugal were admitted in 1986, structural funds associated with the Regional Policy were increased substantially, and Greece profited from those as well. Greece joined the Eurozone in 2001 as 12th member (there are now 16 members). All this information is available on Wikipedia.
As for Nigel Farage, I had never heard of him before now. Since the European Parliament is elected by proportional representation, contrary to the First Past The Post system used in the UK, there is automatically a better representation of the diverse British viewpoints. However, I think EU venues are not used to the combative style so popular in the House of Commons. After perusing the commentaries in some Belgian newspapers (both Flemish and Walloon), I got the impression that most people know very well the true state of Belgium, why it exists, and the quality of their political personnel. But some also know enough about the UK and the state of affairs there. Not very edifying, all this. Anyway, Farage got his 15 minutes of fame, and presumably thinks he boosted therefore his chances of being elected in the UK.
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@198 MarcusAureliusII
Congratulations! You have made the point this time! I would allow myself to complete your assessment by adding just one fact: the English are very eloquent when they criticise the negative sides of the EU policies and very restrained (even silent) when it comes to them to explain why many Irish (from North Ireland) or Scottish people openly express their dissatisfaction of being subjects of Her Majesty.
Sofia, Febr.28th 2010 Generalissimo
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Off Subject,
I saw Billy Joel and Elton John together in concert (in Kansas City, MO yes lol), tonight.
They were great and for the finale they both appeared on stage together, both at their pianos (and they sang together, of course).
I sat in the nosebleeding section and unfortunately the volume was so loud my ears also bled lol, but it was great. Wow...Elton John... (he still sings great, too..."oh I can see Daniel waving goodbye..clouds in my eyes..")
@ Tortelein,
It would matter to me..who killed me (for a second..:)
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Tortilein @201,
"seems that you tried to defend Stalin".
Yes, I did. Though thought :o))) I will never live up to that day :o))))
Normally, we were very agressive against him, I mean, the bigger part of Russians, who don't have work or family ties to prev. admin. As you understand, a ruling class is always smaller than the "population" of a country - so - majority of Russians are against Stalin, and larger scope of "things", associated with him. The murderous autocratic style of power, spying over own people, harsh repressions over those who don't agree with the ruling party "line". Murderer, in one word.
But then there began that fashion in Europe, set by the smaller well-willing to Russia neighbours :o)))) type Baltics, Poland, Finland, to equal our darling to Hitler, and put them both on one criminal board as equals, how to say, two peas of the same kind, because both were tyrans, and Russians got cataleptical about the new turn of events :o))))
And now we defend "our Stalin", can't exactly explain why, but all do. It feels right.
It's percieved as an in-raid and attack on modern Russia, rather than on the old monster.
First of all, I think we are not "international", or ? "internationalised"? enough yet :o)))), to be able to make no difference between own country's monsters and foreign ones. I understand what you say, on the greater scale of events - who cares by who you are killed, the result is all that matters. In theory.
In practice, though, all prefer to be killed by own monsters, than by foreign ones. Own monsters are always cherished in history, look at any country historical heavy-weight "hero" figures. From Chinghiz-Khan to Alexander the Great, the more you kind of kill around, the more valuable the person becomes in a nation's history. :o)))) Won't quote more recent examples to not offend others. Heavy-weigh killers are always in high historical demand. :o)))) Not at once, though, At once - all suffer, but as time passes, and after they safely rot away, incl. their friends and relatives and related mafia - people do become sentimental about them :o))), and, how to say, more relaxed. While these are alive - of course, one's only desire is diametrically opposite, to get rid of the tyran somehow by all means.
That was a general observation, on humanity drawbacks. :o))))
In particular, this very Stalin monster was in simple practicaal terms less ruinous for Russians than Hitler. War on our ground meant more ruin than simply the count of "how many were killed". 1/2 country was raised down to the ground, how to say, infrustructural loss, cities-towns and villages in ruin and pebbles, and a meaningful part of the country, the European side up to Urals, where all live and everything is/was.
Which gives a lasting hit on a country, to fix and restore and build anew for years ever after. Also because the amount of those killed is "complimented" by the 10-fold amount of those wounded and crippled. Add to this those deeply impressed and traumatised by the family members loss and frinds/colleagues, scared by the constant stress of bombardment and having to comply with invader's "rules" living under occupation, in other words a war on one's own ground involves every single one, from under-fed babies to orphans and grown-ups and the old.
Huge difference to the condition when separate society members are suddenly "disappearing", hand-picked out at nights, but otherwise life is surprise surpise goes normal. Clear skies, houses stand, metro works, people work, and all.
What am I to explain you the difference btw local and foreign monsters, simply compare Berlin life under Hitler and under foreign invaders, the amount of on loss in Drzden places "to Hitler" and to foreign invaders.
And the difference between war and repressions.
That's the difference, between local monsters and foreign monsters, by which Stalin granted looks to Russians 1000 times "better" than Hitler.
- when the two are compared direct. Face to face muzzle to muzzle, how to say, which immediate comparison exercise was imposed on us by the EU recently.
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The Chorus of modern Greeks harking back to the glories of Ancient Greece is amusing, if fatuous.
Other than linguistic and geographical there is very little connection between the Ancient Greeks and the modern Greeks. A genealogist could confirm this, but I doubt whether even 5% of modern Greeks are direct descendants of the Ancient Greeks. 2,000 years have passed and Greece has been conquered, plundered and occupied by Romans, Byzantines, Goths, etc - not to mention hundreds of years of Ottoman Turk and Islamic occupation.
From Ancient Greece came forth the amazing art, culture, architecture, philosophy and political thinking that were the founding stones of Western Civilisation. Other than bazouki music and Nana Mouskouri (OK, and Mikis Theodorakis, Manos Hadjidakis, Nikos Kazantzakis), what has Modern Greece ever given us?
As to the question of this topic, the obvious solution is for Germany, rather than Greece, to leave the Euro.
The Germans will once again have the strong currency and economy they work hard for, and the Euro will plummet in value to where it out to be - something that will be greatly to Greece's benefit.
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@ 188 WA
Plushenko was the best (I have just watched his last performance on the Galla show. What a pity that the jury people were not enough just and fair this time. The American guy who won the gold was very, very perfect but he lacks maybe the invisible portion of gift that would make the dance something quite close or similar to the sport. Plushenko has no reason to bother about it. He’s the black swan on the ice and he does not care much how the jury will assess his performance…as an artistic or as a sportive achievement. For him everything is ART. He’s Russian and that fact explains everything… I embrace you dear Alice with much affection and love…
Generalissimo
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To Menedemus (105):
I really don't understand your claim that "the EU and Eurozone is a common market of unequal partners".
First of all when we are talking about deficit spending, we are actually talking about just administrating the payment of bills. If a country has large deficit spending and it gains debt, it is actually just moving bills to be paid by future taxpayers.
Secondly if a country starts to print money, be it known as quantitative easing or something else, we have again administrative operation that moves money away from the savers to pay the bills.
The thing is, somebody is always going to pay the bill. Eurozone is build around the idea that states do their paying of bills transparently by using methods that citizens and corporations can recognize and understand, in essence increase of taxes, decrease of spending. Another way, the old way, was to simply scam citizens, when a government starts to print money, moving of money is not transparent, it only proclaims itself as inflation, but inflation comes later and usually nobody accuses the government for having large inflation running around.
Let me rephrase this... How much has the UK deficit spending cost you to this day? When you are calculating that..
..you should factor in devaluation of external value of Pound.
http://fx.sauder.ubc.ca/cgi/fxplot?b=GBP&c=EUR&rd=731&fd=1&fm=1&fy=2009&ld=31&lm=12&ly=2010&y=daily&q=volume&f=png&a=lin&m=0&x=
..you should factor in current and future devaluation of internal value of Pound.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8467305.stm
Now can you give any estimate on how much you have given money to the British government? Can you give any estimate? You probably can't.
This is directly the problem that we face if we leave transparent policies, adjusting of taxation and level of services produced. For example in my case I know quite well were I stand, there has no quantitative easing, thus inflation should remain between 1% and 2%, the Finnish state has deficit that in this year roses over 3% of GDP, thus it is high time raise taxation, I don't mind paying an extra 1% or 2% taxes if they also start to slash down government bureaucracy and abuse of social benefits.
States in the EU and in the Eurozone are only unequal partners if they reject the economic reality and how world works. There is the good way and there is the bad way, everybody should understand what difference it makes on having governments mandated to act transparently.
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189. At 01:47am on 28 Feb 2010, viewcode wrote:
To: Mickalus post#185
From: viewcode
Re: Farage and UKIP
Mickalus, hi! Farage's diatribe needs to be put in context.
Hi Viewcode. Your excellent posting reveals and summarises the exquisite conundrum of UKIP perfectly to my mind. Farrage simply had a tantrum!
MAII seems to hell bent on a similar course
198. At 03:56am on 28 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Vaseline;
Belittling fellow contributors and attacking how states govern themselves - are you actually Nigel Farage?
Are those your toys outside the pram?
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@ Tortilein 160
The moderator has done it to me as well. Quite a purist it seems. But I think friendly greetings he is not averse to. EUprisoner even added a Czech greeting to me and he let it pass.
The population size information I had read only a few days ago on the teletext of the German public TV station 1 or 2. I did quote from memory though. The figures had been compiled by a German organisation, perhaps that is why there were figures for East and West. The present total was already below 82 million.
I can however refer you to www.dw-world.de, they reported on 18.11.2009
an expected reduction of 12-17 million over the next 50 years. The text is in English. They also mention France and Britain bypassing Germany.
The ten years I mentioned with regard to France were uttered by noneother than Hans-Olaf Henkel on TV only recently in a discussion round on 1 on Sunday evening. I mention him here because he is another example of a 'senior German' that is dishonest. The subject having been on banks and German taxevasion, he behaved rather badly, effectively maligning those that report those crimes. His dishonnesty was that he did not reveal his present occupation, namely that of Senior Adviser to a mayor American bank. What an American Professor from Kansas city thinks about him can be read from a letter that he sent to the Head of that bank. It can be read on the internet. Since Herr Henkel is also a member of an organisation called Konvent for Germany were there are a number of well known public figures, including a former President, I have challenged them to express their view on Herr Henkel's attitude.
Enough of that for now.
Now with the kind permission of the no doubt well intentioned moderator I should like to write two words in a foreign tongue. It is actually the title of a song of long ago. I somehow associate it with Colombia. Am I right or wrong? The title is "Cielito lindo".
Best regards
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Generalissimo, @207.
Thank you. We are deeply wounded by this judges predation :o)))), especially so that was one and only sure gold Russia could reasonably hope for in these Olympics, and, how to say, the gaping abyss of its absence made a painful interruption in the 50-year non-stop in gold, for Russian skaters, Olympic games other. Kind of a strategic turn of events, may be justified, in overall current weaker figure-skating condition of Russia, but definitely artificially forced to happen pre-mature. Before its time.
Russian girls now, LOL, collect ear-rings and rings, to make Evgeny an own medal of support of the nation :o)))) When I figure out the address, I might also bring over there an ear-ring or two. Would feel not robbed but priviledged, if he'd wear that glued-together support chunk. :o)))
Overall, in men's figure skating you can only look at Pluschenko or Lambiel. I mean, it is pleasant to watch and re-watch the skate. Like a favourite song to re-play on youtube.
These are not on you tube yet, that is, appeared but were quickly closed up by you tube, as violating Canadian TV or Olympics' TV ? something current rights. I wonder if these will expire after the end of the Olympics tonight, or will last for half a year more. or so. Russian Olympics' site of course has them :o)))) I watched Evgeny's short programme (far better than the long one) 20 times as min. already. But the site telling of the Games' news will be closed up tomorrow. Well, will find, somewhere. His old performances, of the prev. years, are safely on you tube, so it appears there is a date after which Olympic countries lose the rights for the show.
I also liked our second pair better, than the ones who took bronze. The ones who danced the two birds, the black bird (the man) and the "Flame Bird". But with them it's internal intrigues, local association stubbornly puts for leaders the other pair, mentally, though whole Russia agrees they are better. The leading one has a man in a kind of current Pluschenko condition, on operated leg :o))) hidden by wide trousers of the man in the pair, the plaster. So they simply can't much presently. But also, proved to be fighters, especially him.
And that Kawaguti girl fell in the long programme when being tossed out :o)) is of course very sad, because their short programme was best. She might now abandon us in St. Petersburg :o( and return back to Japan.
Tarasova though coach of Lycachek said Evgeny was under-scored by 4 scores, after the short programme - her estimation.
In another interview she said that a man's skate without jumps is an oxymoron :o))) - but in 2 days this her interview was cut away from youtube :o))) May be, she self-censored herself. :o)))) Given that she trains both Americans and Russians.
Commenting the Gala Tarasova praised Lycahek as an extremely hard-working self-made man, with total devotion to the sport, "he has made himself up, by enormous amount of work" given that "he doesn't catch stars out from the sky " :o)))))))))
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It's not about Elton John...
What Greece is commenting about is its stake in the EU pie. Greece is interested to cover the deficiet by opening new horizons. Yes they can (the Greeks) If they open seperate bileteral agreements with other states outside the EU.
The Greek PM is probably joking about the gold from WWII. Because Greece joined the EU in the 80's. In 1969 the EU has declared its goal to be a political Union. So whether the countries entering the EU considered fit macro wise or not, was secondary to the prime goal - economical union -looking ahead. No one cheated. So Greece would have to look into its books to find who opened the gap between the Taxes collected and the Government spending and it is not relevent if all pay taxes or not. If the taxes are not enough to cover for public services - start privatization. Free competition.
For example: Suppose in 1979 more salaries added to the public sector which the Greek government financed by taking a loan in US$, and in 1980 the Dracma was devaluated. Who pays for the deficiet? the exporters for the interest (in US$) and the rest by the Greek taxpayers...Entering the EU in 1981 does not change that. But that should not stop the Greeks from looking ahead.
Looking ahead Greece with other member states (in the same position) should make demands as to the professional (economic) advice Greece is entitled to from the EU economists (ones on the pay roll). And untill the system of reporting directly to the EU "economic center" is set the EU is not entiled to call itself "an economical union". The system has to be set in the accountancy offices collecting info online from the private sectors conpanies doing their diggings, the banks who give loans to farmers. The information has to be checked cross reference by these accountancy offices on line. Un employment? You have got to be kidding.
The quality control has to be set by the EU union. The results may change the energy sector beyond recognitgion. Unemployment?
Till then I see no reason why Greece or any other member state would not sign bileteral agreements with states outside the EU. So I think Greece and other member states can bargain about their position.
I do not underestimate the power of the EURO. Its a fine commodity. The Union can be more politically powerfull than any other market in the world. Because of its past history. But the Union has to loose the systems overlapping other international systems - like the WTO (1947). When I took the cources of international trade (GATT) and the EU laws (1980's) I almost drawned in the lirics. Now looking back at the two systems,I dont see why the EU has to deal with trade at all, once they are bound by the WTO. The EU should not deal with prices at all or bileteral agreements on commodities. EU Taxes has to be collected by the expenditure of the EU. The quality of the commodities exported out and imported into the EU is the question. This is what Greece can argue about, the overlaps.
Employment stands on its own.
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@MarcusAureliusII
I would like to thank you for your learned exposition of why UK is no democracy. Since I am rather ignorant on international matters while you are clearly on top of issues, I wonder then, how US policy makes sense, i.e. to invade primarily along with UK to other countries to make them democratic states (among other objectives)? It would have made better sense first US to invade UK create democracy and then to go on all around the world teaching democratic lessons. However, I might not be able to understand your complex (but clearly sound) reasoning because I am no more than vaseline which interestingly comes from a combination of German word for water and Greek word for oil and thus it is so relevant to our discussion (nothing you say is accidental, your words work at different levels of wisdom). Thank you again.
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To outsider (212):
You said:
"Till then I see no reason why Greece or any other member state would not sign bileteral agreements with states outside the EU. So I think Greece and other member states can bargain about their position."
The thing is that they can't. EU membership treaties have transferred quite largely in many areas, especially in economics, business and commerce, all power to the EU to negotiate and interact with non-EU states. Bilateral treaties for EU states are mostly a thing of past.
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I ve just heard from Greek officials words in these lines: If Greece sees that it has no other choice than to go to IMF because EU states decide to give no much needed loan one way or the other so that we don't default, fair enough, but the responsibility will lie squarely on EU. Greece won't go to the IMF voluntarily, prefers a solution within EU. However if other EU governments (understandably) put the so perceived interests of their citizens first, Greek government has no other choice than to do the same and it will go to IMF.
I think there is hard bargaining going on....
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To vassilis (215):
And what is exactly the problem with going under the IMF guidance? And why would it be bad for the rest of the Eurozone?
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@ margaret howard 187
You are so right in what you say. However with regards to the apologies, was it not Gordon Brown himself that apologised in recent days about the children that Britain sent to Australia up to 1970?
When the German authorities make publically known as late as July 2009 facts about the Nazi era, it is noteworthy. It did not come accompanied with an apology to those families that had some loved one murdered. I remind you of the figure: 30 000.
Since I am a close observer and over the years much more than that. The many bad experiences I have made when reaching out and indeed helping Germans time and time again ended only in being massively disappointed. I am not talking here about ordinary people.
I do not wish to indulge in personal stories, so I give you one that is known, albeit not widely. Wolfgang Steuble the present Minister of the Interior was very closely involved with the German reunification process. He and indeed the Chancellor Helmuth Kohl were of the opinion at the time that all the records from the East German Stasi should be destroyed. (Stasi was the secret internal Security organisation that kept records on their fellow citizens and who knows what else they got envolved with.) The citizens of East Germany, the victims(!) did not agree with Kohl and Steuble, the records are kept and organised as it should be to this day.
Sweeping things under the carpet as much as possible had already taken place after 1945, so why not try it again?
Regards
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Re:206
You said:
The Chorus of modern Greeks harking back to the glories of Ancient Greece is amusing, if fatuous.
I say:
That is what YOU say. In fact Greeks do this far far less than foreign people when talking about Greece. That is YOUR problem not ours. For us ancient Greek history is just part of our history as is the previous Mycenaean and Minoan civilisation as the medieval Hellenised Roman Empire (what French arbitrarily called as Byzantine) history and our fathers of the great 1821 Revolution. You do not even have to be any specialist to understand that all these civilisations are the work of the very same people.
You said:
Other than linguistic and geographical there is very little connection between the Ancient Greeks and the modern Greeks. A genealogist could confirm this, but I doubt whether even 5% of modern Greeks are direct descendants of the Ancient Greeks. 2,000 years have passed and Greece has been conquered, plundered and occupied by Romans, Byzantines, Goths, etc - not to mention hundreds of years of Ottoman Turk and Islamic occupation.
I say:
So. According you there is no connection - that is what you wish of course cos other than a wish list I saw little. BUT explain me this. We know perfectly who approached Greeks after the Roman conquest and that is Goths (blond people, quite hairless), Avars (Mongolic people, totally hairless), Slavic people (blond people, very hairless), Turkish people (mongolic people, completely hairless), Albanian people (light brown to blond people, quite hairless)....
SOOOO... how on earth Greeks ended up with black/dark brown hair and one of the most hairy ethnic groups on earth? And explain this, why EVERY research claims Greeks to have their closest relatives in South Italy? Was South Italy invaded by Goths, Avars, Slavs and Turks? Let me have your feedback on that.
You said:
From Ancient Greece came forth the amazing art, culture, architecture, philosophy and political thinking that were the founding stones of Western Civilisation. Other than bazouki music and Nana Mouskouri (OK, and Mikis Theodorakis, Manos Hadjidakis, Nikos Kazantzakis), what has Modern Greece ever given us?
I say:
Do you want me to make a full list? What do you want? Science? Literature? Dr. Karatheodoris, the mind behind relativity (Einstein's teacher, he admitted it just before his death)? Dr. Papanikolaou, the one whose test saved millions of women around the world? And who really was behind modern robotic exploration - Dr Oikonomou? You never asked who was one of the most forward thinking politicians of the 19th century, the one also behind the modern Swiss political system, the name of Ioannis Kapodistrias tells you nothing at all? You mention only Kazantzakis but you fail to mention Kavafis (one of the most original poets of the last 500 years), Seferis, Elytis and so on - the list becomes boringly long to end it here.... Either you like it or not, even in late 19th our university graduates per population were more than those in France or Britain (see... we were not industrialised to become workers, so villagers would send their kids to study - you can accuse this "lazy", "unproductive" tactic of course). Either you like it or not, modern Greece is still the nation with the highest output per population in scientists, thinkers and artists.
... oh yes... all that by the nation that fought more wars than any other European nation in the last 200 years, passed 1 full genocide in Minor Asia where 1,5 million Greeks were massacred, and lost around 900,000 to famine and massacres in WWII, events tha resulted in 1in3 Greeks emigrating going abroad to become workers - while the country kept beeing attacked politically and even militarily throughout the last 50 years EU or no EU. So you can imagine what could be the reality if Greece was left relatively alone, say just like Scandinavians...
You said:
As to the question of this topic, the obvious solution is for Germany, rather than Greece, to leave the Euro. The Germans will once again have the strong currency and economy they work hard for, and the Euro will plummet in value to where it out to be - something that will be greatly to Greece's benefit.
I say:
As-if jokes. No EU country alone can survive for much longer than 20 years unless it becomes a US colony. If that is the future you dream for Europe, let it be, join our US friend above, Mr. Marcus and say what you want to say more.
As for Greece, if it is let alone it will not stay for long since US will order Turkey to attack it, so it will telephone Russia. And then (no matter what will be the fate of Greece - certanly not worse than now, an alliance with a state that does not owe money to anyone is certainly beneficial) EU will deeply regret it, when I say deeply I mean it: with Russian acquiring control of the Eastern Mediterranean there will be really tears.
I repeat: the entry of Greece in the EU was justified inside Greece "for security reasons" and inside the EU "for geopolitical reasons". You understand that EU will be paying 10 times more the bailing-price if Greece goes out. Imagine that Greeks (and I mean not the US-backed current as-if-greek government) did not even ask bailing, they asked simply political support that the EU never offered. Is it so difficult to understand? Do not try to hide behind your own weaknesses.
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Jukka Rohila... you ask a rhetoric question... why is it bad? Does the name Argentina rings you any bells? Not is is not bad at all really... but I would much rather have Russians and Chinese bailing us out with anything they want in exchange (cos they will ask it in barter exchange terms), than the IMF... What do you make out of that?
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@Jukka Rohila
I don't know if it makes sense but many people say: The Euro will be attacked by speculators fiercely then since it will be perceived to be vulnerable and inherently unstable (which I find srtange if the whole problem is purely the bad Greeks. I think that it serves some people to claim that Greeks are bad everybody else is good, but I am Greek what I would say?), other EU states (which are not really at a much much better shape than Greece and they might hide at their closets better-hidden skeletons of even worse 'creative accounting' which could be revealed), and we will have a domino effect of bankrupties of PIGS which will make a Greek saving plan (2-3% of whole Europe) look like a bargain. At the end of the day (people say I don't know) it might not serve the interests of the German or other european taxpayers not to offer a reasonable loan to Greece (if this saves Greece I don't know). It's the way that Euro has been constructed that leaves Greece with bargaining power. Let's see.... Personally I believe that the loan is needed (and either by EU or IMF will be secured one way or the other) but it might be of secondary importance on the longrun, much needed reform of the way we are organised is needed and this is a more valueable aid than a loan. Germans and others must aid Greece with this, and Greek officials humbly listen to others. We have at last at very last admit that we have to rationalise the way we do things. There will be a long term benefit for Greece and it might worth current austerity measures.
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@MaxSceptic
I am not in a Greek-defending mood and I will let it pass. Research the issue better. Read more widely etc. If you come up with the same conclusions fair enough.
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Spartanicus;
"MarcusAureliusII: Greece was not brought into the EU they are one of the original members, get your facts straight!"
You always find some unimportant detail to negate the central thrust and truth of an argument but it doesn't work. Whenever Greece was admitted to the EU, the fact remains that anyone who cared to find out if it made sense to engage it in an economic union where there would be some kind of reciprocal exchange of give and take even if it was not of the same magnitude or kind but at least would be of some mutual benefit based on complimentary strengths could have quickly and easily discovered that Greece was no economic asset to the likes of Germany, France, Holland, and others. It was an an incourageably impovrished corrupt society that would forever be a drain on the wealthier and more economically more ambitious societies. That it would always be an economic drain on them could have been predicted by accepting that the culture which made and keeps Greece that way would not change for a very long time. Handing them money hoping that it would change instead of isisting that it change before it could join if it really wanted to join was a deliberate mistake that only helped perpetuate that culture. In afflutent times, that drain was an annoyance. Now in much more severe circumstances, it has become a hardship for them.
This points out that the decision to form the EU had as its goal, not an economic union where the economies would mutually benefit each other but a political union whose only objective was to create an entity of sufficient mass to appear impressive to other truly unified political entities, especially the United States. This was the result of intense envy and rage in Germany and France where it was realized that neither could rule a united Europe alone by imposing itself. Europe is merely an arbitrary geographical entity whose boundaries are not even agreed to by those who live there. Those who say Turkey is not part of Europe refuse to accept that like Russia, its territory straddles two continents according to all mainstream cartographers. As for it being a union, the rancor which has been displayed by Greece and Germany towards each other among other visciously rancorous exchanges as the onset of a crisis puts the lie to that myth. Neither the government of the United states nor its people are awed by the size of a school of small fish swimming in formation. To us they are not a huge shark but just a mass of chum. It hasn't worked. Nor does it appear as a powerful political entity to be reckoned with, nor as an economic power to be engaged as one large unity, nor as a unified cultural power that wields influence around the world. It is an absurd edifice whose internal contradictios, inconsistencies, and incoherencies will result in its collapse at the first strong wind. It was assembled by irrational people with irratioal motive using irrational plans, people with political power who would not be deterred by what anyone who opposed them wanted instead. That is what we are witnessing now, the end of this absurdity. The result is sure to be utter chaos.
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218. At 11:28am on 28 Feb 2010, Nik wrote:
" ... No EU country alone can survive for much longer than 20 years unless it becomes a US colony ..."
EUpris: I don't believe that. If it was the case then being a US colony would be better than being a prisoner of the "EU"-Dictatorship. I don't want to be part of the USA. I do want to be friendly with the USA and cooperate with it. Experience shows that cooperation with the USA usually works well whereas th "EU" has been a disaster and a nightmare for the UK.
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To Nik (219):
Problems of Argentina aren't caused by the IMF, but by the corrupt state and society. Economic trajectory of Argentina has been pointing downward for the last 50 years and this is largely because people don't want to pay their bills, they want others to pay their bills. Nobody wants to take any responsibility.
In case of IMF, the simple remedy that they offer is to take down state services and raise taxation until a balance is archived, to make transition easier they offer loans to ease up the transition period. However there is nothing to stop the Greek or any other doing what is necessary today. Just fire all employees of the state and hire half of them back with half pay and you have problem solves.
In case of Russians and Chinese, the thing is, Greece doesn't anything to offer. It is a nice holiday destination, but nothing besides that. No oil or other strategic commodities, no technology etc... So what again would be the point for them to act?
To vassilis (220):
Speculators that short the Euro, make the mistake to think that for the ECB or the Eurozone it is important to have strong Euro. Having strong Euro would be a matter of importance..
..if the Eurozone would be running large trade deficits as to be able to continue running economy based on consuming like the USA, however Eurozone has a trade surplus and is more or less running in exports driven mode. As Euro is taking US dollars place as currency for trading commodities, Europe will first move to mix of export/consuming driven economy and later perhaps to become more driven by consuming. However, today Europe is exports driven economy, and for that mode having weaker Euro is spoon.
..if the Eurozone economies were more oil based, then having price of oil be cheap via having strong Euro would be a matter of major importance. However Eurozone economies are less reliant of oil than the USA: we spend less oil to run our economy than Americans because of how infrastructure works more efficiently. If Euro declines in value, it isn't the end of the world as that decline hits relatively less than in other parts of the world, and is made up by having more competitive position in the global markets thanks to devalued currency.
What is happening right now is group think in Wall Street and other parts of the world. The problem is that so many even in the financial industry don' really understand Euro or the Eurozone or how real economies of the EU work together. In case of other Eurozone economies under pressure, if and when Eurozone states start to make real progression on balancing their state deficits, then in that day markets will again truest these states.
Let me also remind you that Eurozone economies aren't actually in that bad shape, for example many other countries like UK and USA are in business of printing money. While UK and USA may not default, having the value of your investment half up isn't good business, inflation is as dangerous as country defaulting or restructuring its debts.
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Nik @218
The great Modern Greek philosopher Petros Theodoracopulos (Taki) would agree with you about the Greeks being the most hairy european people: he calls Greece the 'Home of Electrolysis'.
I disagree: I'm blond and hairier than any Greek I know. Many other Brits are likewise. And Turks are amazingly hairy...
I also disagree with you about most of the rest of your long list of justifications.
I don't want to be mean. I'm sure there were - and are - lots of illustrious and important modern Greeks, but they are not exactly in the world's top 1000 of people who've contributed most to the modern world - at least are far as non-Greeks are aware (Don't worry - famous Belgians are even rarer!).
As for your comment "As for Greece, if it is let alone it will not stay for long since US will order Turkey to attack it" - this smacks of paranoia and the usual left-wing anti-americanism. (Besides, the last time there was a Greco-Turkish war, it was Greece that attacked Turkey... [Now, that is a can of worms!]).
Personally, I don't care one way or the other how Greece sorts out its decrepit economy and corrupt society, so long as the British taxpayer doesn't pick up the tab.
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@Jukka Rohila
'Just fire all employees of the state and hire half of them back with half pay and you have problem solves.'
Very easy indeed. We should have thought about it earlier. Out of curiosity: what do you suggest happens to other half?
You see since I cannot be sure in what half I would be in, I happen to have a remote interest for my fate. :-)
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Jukka, I have a serious question for you.
If the IMF were to lend money to Greece, how could it lay down its requirements with regard the national currency? Doesn't the ECB already have that role?
What I mean is, the ECB and the EU are already the institutions responsible for dictating budgetary policy within the Eurozone. They already tell greece how much it ought to borrow and spend and so on and so forth.
If the IMF were to lend US dollars to Greece, wouldn't it want to make rules and conditions regarding the greek budget? I thought the IMF always had a set of conditions that went with its loans, a package of economic "advice" the borrowing government had to adopt.
So if Greece does go to the IMF, how does that sit with the EU? Who will be master of greece, in terms of economic policy? And would the ECB be OK with the IMF overruling it, in terms of economic management within the Eurozone?
Or would it be likely that if Greece does go to the IMF, that means they would need to leave the Eurozone first, and establish an independent currency?
Cheers for you thoughts if you find the time.
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vaseline;
"'Just fire all employees of the state and hire half of them back with half pay and you have problem solves.'"
Just fire all employees of the state and don't hire any of them back. If it's true that none of them work anyway, nobody would notice any difference. Problem solved.
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To vassilis (226):
What happens then is open for debate, but what I'm expecting to happen is..
..in public sector due to having less workforce for the same tasks, public sector has A) to priorities what activities and services are most needed for the functioning of the state and the economy; and B) to innovate new ways to organize work so that overhead work is minimized. This will induce growth of production in the public sector: more is gotten with less money.
..in private sector due to having a massive increase of available workforce, competition for work will increase leading Greek businesses and corporations to get better workforce with less expenses thus increasing Greek economic competitiveness which will induce economic growth.
For an individual citizens working now for the state, this kind of reform can and will mean decrease of standards of living for many if not all, can and will mean drop of social class for many, will mean increased work and stress due to having more work and more results expected. However moving to private sector can also benefit many with the right skill-set and right work ethics, careers and open and becoming entrepreneur is an option too.
However, while entire generations can and will be hurt by this restructuring, it will also create better structures for economy to work and in long run in 10-20 years time, next generation of Greeks can and will have better standards of living than their parents that did the sacrifice. The question is, which is better, to sacrifice for the benefit of future generations, or to make them pay for the mistakes of their elders?
I should also add that much depends on what kind of legal environment Greece has. For example if you don't have laws regarding personal bankruptcies like in the USA, where a person can have new start in life by making a bankruptcy, then you should legislate them as soon as possible. In Finland due to 90s depression, because we didn't have personal bankruptcy laws, those that failed, failed their whole life because they didn't get a fresh start. If the system by reform becomes harsher environment then there has to be more forgiveness shown to the individuals.
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Just to say as a matter of fact that leaving the Eurozone is not covered in the treaty (Greece won't leave voluntarily I think, it is its only bargaining tool). However, even if Greece decides to leave Eurozone the signal that will be sent to markets and speculators is loud and clear: you attack a country in difficulties you make it change currency and you gain money. It is too predictable. They will have a party. Collapse of the whole Eurozone.
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If you fire all state employees, who will collect the taxes? Oh yes, contract that out to the private sector, a subsidiary of Goldman Sachs, for example. They know how to deal with taxpayer's money after all, just look at the USA.
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@ Jukka Rohila
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with most of what you say but I say very humbly that we have to be very very careful. since 'Greek businesses and corporations' are very few and small and will have a very difficult time in the present climate (if they do not bankrupt themsleves due to the certain depression) and since last time I checked a Greek can move freely within EU, establish himself and find a job in another country and be treated no differently than the citizens of the country, entitled to the same benefitsetc. and since most Greeks have benefited a free education for years and they are educated and since there is a substantial Greek diaspora to help someone moving in the beginning, their solution might be to move to other more prosperous countries of the EU and compete for the same jobs (I assume that you won't discriminate against them and you will welcome the competition). Then in the remote chance that same happens with other PIGS I can foresee a situation that a substantial part of the population of south Europe moves to UK, Germany, Finland, Sweden etc. for better future. How the indigenous population will see such move and what strain will this have for the social system of these countries? Will this lead to closing of borders and ultimately the collapse of the EU project as we know it? You see IMHO without solidarity and whatever this entails neoliberal policies might not provide the whole answer and create serious side effects...
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@Jukka (229)
The only problem with your logic is simple. Real unemployment in Greece right now, is way over 10%. Why private sector don't use all that available workforce? They will work cheaply.
Cutting public sector in half, will only drive unemployment levels to huge levels.
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Re 225: Again you are coming back without a single argument:
You said:
The great Modern Greek philosopher Petros Theodoracopulos (Taki) would agree with you about the Greeks being the most hairy european people: he calls Greece the 'Home of Electrolysis'.
I say:
Petros who? A philosopher? He must be one of the 100s of them, I won't even bother to know who is he.
You said:
I disagree: I'm blond and hairier than any Greek I know. Many other Brits are likewise. And Turks are amazingly hairy...
I say:
You do not pose any argument. Lets imagine you tell the truth (which I seriously doubt, I work both in Belgium and UK), then you talk about the exception. I talk about the general rule. Back in the university days, British guys shaved once a week (having started shaving at 17... and that forcefully...), we had to shave twice per day to keep a clean face, but mostly we did not care - British students jokingly said they recognised us from a distance thanks to our hairy faces).
Now, Turkish were a mongolic tribe, slashed eyes, sparse moustashes and practically almost no beard. Modern Turks are whatever. If Turks are at 95% the descendants of islamised Armenians, Greeks and other Minor Asian populations as well as Albanians, Serbians and Bulgarians - and thus naturally some 12-15% resembling Greeks (perceived as superior in Turkey - just see the image they want to sell in the media), does not make in any sense Greeks related to Turks. It is simply 15% of Turks related to Greeks not the opposite. No muslim became ever a christian. If christians became muslims forced or willing, how does that affects the remaining christian population? Of course that is something so simple that escapes your imagination, but then at the end of the day you just simply want to denigrate Greeks, quite obvious. Should I call this racism?
You said:
I also disagree with you about most of the rest of your long list of justifications.
I say:
Of course you do not disagree since you do not have any argumentation at all! You just do not want to accept the facts. Your problem.
You say:
I don't want to be mean. I'm sure there were - and are - lots of illustrious and important modern Greeks, but they are not exactly in the world's top 1000 of people who've contributed most to the modern world - at least are far as non-Greeks are aware (Don't worry - famous Belgians are even rarer!).
I say:
It is the bulk of 1 billion of the "developed world" that will name who is famous and who is not, it can't be 10-15 million Greeks. That does not change the fact that the work of Karatheodoris predated Einstein - with the latter admitting that whatever he managed to do he owes it to Karatheodoris (Einstein was also predated by other scientists too, like a German guy who preented papers predating those of Einstein 2 days after Einstein's publication but his valid claim was "entombed", finally attributing the relativity theory to Einstein - note Karatheodoris worked mainly in Germany). You want to dig more? Let us not do it here, you have alredy deviated from the subject.
You said:
As for your comment "As for Greece, if it is let alone it will not stay for long since US will order Turkey to attack it" - this smacks of paranoia and the usual left-wing anti-americanism. (Besides, the last time there was a Greco-Turkish war, it was Greece that attacked Turkey... [Now, that is a can of worms!]).
Yes, you are opening YOUR OWN can of worms. You simply defend the birth of Nazism, ethnic cleansing and genocide in Europe. Greece did not attack Turkey cos Turkey did not even exist, in 1919 there was not even a notion of any "turkish state" apart in the minds of a few young-turks linked to the rest of the muslim society only via their common hatred of "others" and their need to exterminate them. In 1919 there was a collapsed Ottoman Empire in which already the muslims (your turks) had already killed in the most horrible ways 500,000 Greeks up to 1916 (350,000 Greeks in Pontos and 150,000 Greek men that were "drafted in the army" and assasinated in the first modern concentration camps, the ones that inspired the Germans). The Greek army arrived in Smyrna as part of the allied army, and had as a main task to protect the christian population and was actually called by the British who nontheless pushed it deep in Minor Asia (where Greeks had no interests) prohibiting the Greek navy to work and support all probably (from what it seems) in a preplanned scheme to exterminate all Greeks from Minor Asia since Britain (and others) finally esteemed that a future state called "Turkey" was preferencial as an ally to the British in the area).
You do not know, don't speak. Check out your political tedencies too, it is not very assuring to have Europeans that speak so lightly about genocides (1,5 million Greeks, 1,5 million Armenians and 1 million Assyrians).
You said:
Personally, I don't care one way or the other how Greece sorts out its decrepit
I say:
What is your problem then? Why do you commend? Why on earth do you have such a complex with Greeks? And why do you come here to deviate this disussion which has nothing to do with what you say?
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@ jablko:
Yes, I also read that by 2060 Britain and France will have overtaken Germany's population. But no, that is nothing that will happen in only 10 or 20 years, don't forget that by now each of these countries has 20 million people less than Germany and Germany's population will be in strong decline from about 2040 on. This has not yet started as we had more births than deaths until 2003 and by now there are only some ten thousands deaths more than births. This will happen massivly when the generation of my parents will die, as they are by far the biggest generation in numbers, but now they are in their 50s, too early for them.^^
But you were right, about 19% of the population have some foreign ancestry, but it's also me who belongs to these 19% as this figure also includes those of us who have only partial ancestry background (my father is german, my mother is not). But I don't any difference here between Germany on one side and Holland, France, Britain, Spain etc. on the other side. My feeling tells me that these societies have far more "foreigners" (some/a lot of them probably today are nationals) as they had colonies until the 1950s from where a lot of people came to the mother land. But Britain's population will also be larger than it now is only due to massive immigration, as far as I read. And don't forget that Japan, Russia and most of the countries in eastern, central and south-eastern Europe are also in decline, most of them far stronger than Germany, Spain also is only not in decline because of massive immigration from Latin America, Marocco and Romania. In fact most of us share the same problems. If there wasn't immigration we would all be in decline (incl. the USA). The only countries which are not are those (and it really hurts me to use this term as I am also colombian) in the "third world".
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Our British friends are such island lovers, who can blame them. Maybe they could be enticed with a Greek island at a price that would suit both parties. At least the British pensioners in their reduced circumstances could look forward to a pleasant retirement easing a bit, merely quantivativly speaking, their "growing old" pains. Jukka Rohila, the one with the draconien measures, is looking to re-employ some labour, particularely those that are fed up with hanging around offices that have a bit of a smell about them. The smell of corruption that is. Surely they would love the clean air on building sites, in the garden, looking after real olive trees, not those imaginairy ones for which Brussels used to pay. Hang on, I can hear someone shout, who is to pay for this? Well, was'nt there talk of swaps that were part of the problem? Let's spell it out then, let's go for a swop instead. I am sure that hardly any British pensioner is keen to spend the rest of his/her days in the Falklands. The Argies, sorry the Argentinians, are still keen to get their hands on them. Now, my information is that they had the Nazi gold delivered to them in a German submarine or two. So where is the problem?
Who is going to give Lady Ashton a call?
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Vaseline;
"Just to say as a matter of fact that leaving the Eurozone is not covered in the treaty (Greece won't leave voluntarily I think, it is its only bargaining tool)."
That is correct. Greece and the other PIIGS holds Germany and the rest of the Euro-twilight Zone hostage. The ransom demand; bail us out whatever it costs you. The threat; if you don't we will bring the entire economy of the Eurozone and possibly the EU including yours down on everyone's heads by collapsing its currency. Why would Greece give up such an advantageous position? Why would any of the PIIGS?
It is characteristic IMO of Europeans to create fantasies of what is impossible and force them into existance against all oppositoin and reason no matter how compelling the arguments against it. It wasn't that creating a successful EU superstate would be difficult, it was virtually impossible, at least it would be until many conditions changed drastically in its constituents, a process that could take a century or more. But its inventors refused to wait, refused to carefully engineer such a construct for sometime in the distant future when conditions would be optimal. Instead they threw everything they could find into a boiling pot and hoped for the best. The Germans were as passive and self delusional at the outset as everyone else in Europe. How many asked publically and debated the question of "what are we getting ourselves inot?" NO, all they thought about were visions of an empire. Like Mickey Mouse in Disney's "The Sorcerer's Aprentice" they had a dream of ruling the universe. And like Mickey they woke up one day to find they were drowing with no way to escape. That segment of the movie Fantasia is an excellent metaphor IMO only unlike the film, there will be no master sorceror to save the day by coming to the rescue.
"However, even if Greece decides to leave Eurozone the signal that will be sent to markets and speculators is loud and clear: you attack a country in difficulties you make it change currency and you gain money. It is too predictable. They will have a party. Collapse of the whole Eurozone."
That is an interesting question. Would the departure of Greece signal the weakening of the Eurozone or its strengthening? Ultimately if they all left, the Euro could devolve into the old Deutchmark which was a strong currency. But in the iterim, the uncertainty of what will happen to the other PIIGS could send the Euro tumbling. Unless some secret committee is struggling with that issue right now especially with the problem of Spain and comes up with a satisfactory answer, there would be little hope of avoiding a very rocky ride. As the EU doesn't seem to be very pro-active in efforts of crisis avoidance but seems entirely reactive in efforts of crisis management or more aptly crisis mismanagement, that is not likely.
I'm still wondering if Belgium is actually one country or two. If Czechoslovakia wasn't, why is Belgium? Not only don't the Walloons and Flemish not speak each other's languages, share each others cultures, they appear in large measure to not particularly like each other. I have to wonder what holds the thing together except inertia.
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@ Christos:
"Why private sector don't use all that available workforce? They will work cheaply."
You mean they will be happy to be treated like slaves? It is exactly this neo-liberal standpoint based only on statistics that got us into the mess we are now.
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I think it would be appropriate to mention a fact here: The Greek president of ministers will arrive in Germany on Friday to talk with Deutsche Bank (DB), where Greece would like to borrow money. DB will probably demand a high rate of interest, but if Greece can get a guarantee from Euro zone countries or EU as such it might get a lower rate of interest.
I hardly think Germany will guarantee the amount alone, - and the Greek diplomacy in the last couple of days has only made this even less probably, but the Euro zone countries or perhaps the entire EU will probably make a guarantee for 25 billion Euros.
As I have mention earlier in this thread, a solution is to ask IMF to solve the Greece deficit. They have quite hard means, but for Germany IMF involvement would have the advantage that Berlin is not taking the responsibility for telling Athens what to do with the budget deficit and that the Greek government will lose a scapegoat. However, as I also referred from Die Zeit, because of the political character of the cooperation EU is not happy to leave this to IMF only. So back to EU.
It is not difficult to get rid of the Greece deficit. You just need to cut the government spending. However, a radical cure has consequences. For instance that it curbs the possible growth, in other words the solution that would be the most desirable of them all. Therefore the task is to cut government spending with insight and without curbing the growth.
So far the means have been: Reduction of wages to people in public service and a stop for employments in the same sector. An increase of certain taxes, and an attempt in general to make tax collect more efficient. Among the long term measures is a change of the retirement age, and a radical improvement of the statistical service in Greece.
On March the 16th the governments of the Euro zone will evaluate the situation and probably ask for more action. The Greek government is under time pressure.
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Enlargement:
When a person is sick, the doctor will try to fight the disease. It is not a solution to kill the patient, it is only the disease that should be combatted.
This describes the situation in Greece, where the task is to cut down the deficit and not to cut down the entire country, and if anybody should have doubt they can be sure that the market radical cure is a hard one.
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Going back to the debate: Vassilis and Jukka..; Greece enterred the Eurozone by lying. But that was something even demanded by the EU itself, an EU which has been systematically lying as EUprisoner correctly has implied in his previous messages.
I will repeat it. Greece had applied for enterring the EEC in the 60s, in a British-free EEC (as long as De Gaul existed, there was no Britain inside!!! Well he knew that British has strategic interests colliding with the real interests of the EEC). Greece back then with a much better economy and more promising future it was ready to enter (it was mostly a legal-related thingie, to change 2-3 laws), albeit a US-backed dictatorship and the war with US-backed Turkey in Cyprus and all the rest, delayed this process by 13 years. Greece was finally accepted in late 70s.
I repeat it: in Greece they justified the entry not in any financial term but as "a protective layer". And the rest of Europeans justified the entry of Greece as a "strategic move" purely independent of any micro-financial issues.
What does that mean? It means that if Greece cannot serve its own strategic interests that are less financial and more geostrategic inside the EU it will look elsewhere too. US with its NATO not only has failed Greece but has attacked it and continued to pressure it. Eurozone has refused to provide any aid and European nations even tolerate their own forces being attacked (currenly there is an EU project of border protetion in the Mediterranean, this is simply a joke as it is attacked in the Aegean by Turkish forces - EU and no European country have made any statements... it is more convenient to leave Greeks to clean the rathole...).
If Greece leaves or is forced to leave the Eurozone, the last thing it will care is its state of economy as it will be subject to multiple attacks including even military attacks. Since EU will refuse to provide any aid, Greece might as well leave this union that caused more complications than any good, and then seek alliance to Russia. Do you need to know what follows next? US base out of Crete, then Greece leaves NATO all-together and enters in full alliance with Russia, The ancient US base is replaced by a Russian one, much bigger and hosting a full Russian fleet patrolling the Eastern Mediterranean, while even the last rocky small island is placed with S400 (do you really know what is this rocket? ask your diplomats, why they protested Cyprus bying them from Russia? and why they do not let Greece that finally got them to deploy them).
Then what? Bulgaria enterring the Russian alliance. Bulgaria absorbing FYROM without EU being able to do anything (as most slavic FYROMians are Bulgarans subject to 2 generations of brainwhasing), Serbia enterring also, then Bosnia splitting apart with Serbians taking half the country and joining Serbia and Montenegro probably in civil turmoil to join back the Serbians (unless EU pays them 10-times the bailing of Greece to keep them pro-west and turn them into a US military base - not sure they will like it either). And Turkey? oh... they will have to maintain a low profile otherwise they might as well end up with the fate of pro-US Georgia enjoying the same level of support Georgia finally enjoyed (losing in 2 hours the 1/3 of their country and having now borders with Russia, just 20km north of their capital).
I sign the above. This is no fantastic scenario. It is just an alternative scenario. It is not any wish list. And in no means there is any will to see any military escalation. But there is a bigger game out there, the game between US and Russia and countries like Germany & France (let alone the rest) are small.
The whole idea behind the EU would be to act as a balance between USA, Russia as well as any other power like China and India. It should be out output in a multi-polar world. Alone Germany or France are just not enough. In 10-20 years Chinese and Indians will not even bother to talk to Germany alone. The 2020s will not be the 1950s. Welcome to reality.
Unfortunately the EU is not up to the point. If you listen to Americans like Marcus then you might believe that EU should remain at the point of being the US-servant and attacking Russian interests hurting itself in the process. If you listen to my point of view the EU should become geostrategically an independent player remaining at equal distance from US and Russia. It should develop a common defense and a common external policy. It should set up Galileo up there. Now if US attacks it then EU should cut all relations with the US (Europe can survive alone) and make up a loose alliance with Russia (a country that traditionally only had business interests in western Europe at a win-win situation as Russia's greatest trading partner is EU) isolating the US to mainly Americas. It would be both feasible and beneficial for Europe. As Putin had blatantly said: "I understand that Europe has historic ties with the US and has also common business interests. But at the end of the day, Europe has much more to win by making business with Russia".
Try to claim anything you want: apart from UK, for the rest of Europe, the above phrase is true.
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Dear Nik,
Calm down. The genes are not the central point (I remember vaguely studies which have shown that there is the so called ancient Greek gene which nowadays is carried by populations in south Italy, Greece and west Asia Minor). However, whatever we have in our genes is completely and utterly irrelevant. Personally I do not care the slightest if I carry Turkish or Albanian or Bulgarian genes. They are fine genes. Whatever are our genes, I have to inform you that our mentality is Byzantine and organisation Ottoman, we have a corrupt society and we have to face reality and boldly try to look ourselves in the mirror and change course. There is really no point to acount some prominent Greek people and forget the sad situation we are in. I would have prefered to have had none of these prominent Greeks and we are organised in a better manner, had a society with opportunities for work and prosperity and not have to emigrate to UK or US to have joyful discussions with my friend MarkusAureliusII about vaseline, international politics and the world in general. :-)
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Nik, are you sure you're Greek?
I was wondering about Statements such as, "Now if US attacks it then EU should cut all relations with the US (Europe can survive alone) and make up a loose alliance with Russia (a country that traditionally only had business interests in western Europe at a win-win situation as Russia's greatest trading partner is EU) isolating the US to mainly Americas.
They sound more like the viewpoint of someone living on another planet and in another continuum!
Live long and prosper. \\//
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I agree with Nik that the central issue for Greece is not financial but it has to do with security. If Greece is made to leave EU, probably it will have no alternative than to turn to others. This will change the geopolitical situation in the Balkans and Southeast Europe radically with unimaginable consequences (domino effects had a lot to do with previous WWs) to the security of the whole Europe. This is very well known to European leaders. EU was created mainly to avoid these situations. Greece won't leave EU.
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I know Tortilein, that was sarcastic.
It is very hard in the Greek private sector right now. I'm just fed up with everyone who come up with their simplistic solutions and never look at the society as a whole. And that goes from commentators here to EU officials.
For example.
Sure our public sector needs reform. One of the measures that is discussed is decreasing payrolls for 14 a year to 13. Fair enough, most countries have 13 payrolls per year. In reality what really counts is how much you earn annually. If you get the same amount in 13, 14 or 27 payrolls, doesn't matter at all.
The problem is that as soon as public sector cuts from 14 to 13 payrolls, the private sector will follow. That means that the lousy paid worker that competes with all those unemployed will suffer as well. Is it that hard to ask for 7% decrease in public sector salaries instead of cutting a whole paycheck?
And what hurts more, is that what is done here is done to calm the markets. The same bankers and speculators that brought us in this mess, need to see blood (cutting of the 14 paycheck) to calm down.
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I understand that Greece has worries, about borrowing from IMF.
I don't know how it happens, but absolutely all poor cornered countries who borrowed from it had awful hard times. May be one can borrow from them, when one isn't completely cornered and can show teeth back, but if you are real well corrupted :o))) or have real empty coffers - IMF is like a stamp that "it won't go any better". Doom. :o)))))
Instead, all try to borrow from other countries. Because when other countries give you money they don't control you and don't care the hell how you arrange matters internally, it's a pure money transaction.
IMF though runs the country to which it lends money, ever after. Judging from our personal experience of living ab 10 yrs under IMF management oj oj oj. They monitor every move and you end up destroying the industries which you find useful for the future and supporting the sectors that are of no use to you whatsoever. Because if you don't do what they say - cash flow is cut immediately. You dig your own grave under IMF, my impression. They aren't interested in the country's future but act keeping in mind the interests of the countries who donated money to the fund, making a return on investment for them, not in money terms, but in competitiveness terms.
IMF is not an engine about money only. Just, an observation. But looks like this observation is shared by many Russia's neighbours, because always Belorussia and Ukraine and -stans and Armenia and who only not first check it out can something be obtained around between the neighbour countries and only when nothing works address the IMF.
For Greece though it's more tricky as they don't know who will control them to worser effect of the two potential money lenders - IMF or the EU. The EU nobody tried yet, how it reflects upon a country, when you borrow from it, to which ends they will control you after, so they compare a known evil with an un-known parameter :o)))) and it is hard to estimate indeed.
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And Iceland was asking Russia for money and Cuba and who only not. Simply Europe is richer and doesn't realise the amount of PM-s and presidents of the other world countriues constantly travelling the world :o))) trying to cross-borrow on own continent and on other continents, at very far away places :o))), but not to address the IMF.
Lots of airline industries' business originates from this income, gained on travelling country reps to other countries after money :o))) Continuous perpetual process, a normal thing, by the way.
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@Christos
You ain't seen nothing yet! So far we had on the average a mere ~10% which is clearly inadequate to satisfy the markets. New cuts will be announced soon, probably tomorrow, I predict an additinal 10% as a minimum, perhaps additional 20% or so (I believe this is that they negotiate now and then the loan will come) significant rise to VAT, additional increase to tax on petrol etc. Measures will be at least at the level of Ireland or even worse. I predict a couple of decades of real poverty and a wave of emigration. Be prepared.
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It is universal truth that it's far better to end up owning money to several distant countries, as little connected with you and your interests as possible, and located as far away as possible as well :o))) preferably, for safety reasons :o))) on another continent :o)))) than someone one big and nearby.
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Nik;
"If Greece leaves or is forced to leave the Eurozone, the last thing it will care is its state of economy as it will be subject to multiple attacks including even military attacks."
Even if Greece left the EU, it is still a member of NATO. The treaty requires that NATO countries come to each others defense. Some like the UK and Estonia take that committment seriously. Others like Germany will find any excuse possible to weasel out of it. Their refusal to fight in Afghanistan and their obstruction in Iraq shows in retrospect they were not worth defending during the cold war. We should have let the Soviets take them over along with East Germany. Far from being an industrial powerhouse, East Germany like the rest of the Warsaw Pact nations was a basket case by world standards. West Germany would have been no different. And to think we risked incinerating the entire human race in global thermonuclear war to defend them. Hindsight really is 20-20.
Tortilla;
By 2050 according to the US Census Bureau, the population of the United States will be 420 million. This increase will be entirely due to immigration, the present population remains stable. At an average increase of 3 million new Americans a year, the opportunities for growth and prosperity are enormous. Entire cities and metropolitan areas that don't exist yet will spring up. The current housing shortage will become a distant memory. Unlike other nations such as China, Japan, even India, Brazil, Russia, and European countries, these will be people from all walks of life from every country on earth. They will be drawn to America like a magnet and will bring with them their most valuable asset, their human potential which they will exploit to its fullest here and which we will all benefit from. This alone puts America's future prospects far ahead of everyone elses. Those kinds of people who are your feared liabilities are America's anticipated best assets.
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@ Christos:
Sarkasm, yes, already heard of it.^^
I nearly wrote "you drive me mad with your everything-revealing-statistics and your neo-liberal-view that sees everything but the people".
Glad I didn't.^^
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Corruption, by the way, worries IMF nil. They are not there to improve your morale. :o))))) In Russian experience - perfectly able to work with such government figures who do the main thing - sign the due papers, introduce IMF decisions re how the country is to be run into life. be they a personal embodiment of the word "corruption". Between two governemnt members one honest but resisting a particular IMF direction and one thief from capital letter but saying "Yes" to an IMF adviser - because those will sit in all offices, and in all bodies, have own desks, non-stop - the thief will be supported over the honest man - 100% without exception. He can steal as much as he likes, provided he signs the IMF direction into a law.
Haven't noticed Ukraine's morals improved either lately, in terms of corruption, under IMF guidance :o)))))
But can be of course we are only two un-happy in the world while the rest showed excelllent results :o)))
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Greece should spy around quickly and ASAP, who will be the major lender in either IMF borrowing or the EU borrowing, and, accordingly, whose interests will be exercised over Greece, and how it is compatible with Greece own long-term interests. And then chose the lesser evil. Who will be more interested that Greece is alright, in 10 years from now say longer term?
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WA;
"I understand that Greece has worries, about borrowing from IMF.
I don't know how it happens, but absolutely all poor cornered countries who borrowed from it had awful hard times."
The IMF demands radical changes in the way economies and political structures are run in a country as a condition for its loans. The purpose of the loans is to allow the country to survive financially long enough to develop an economy that is self sufficient and self sustaining obviating the need for perpetual gifts and loans which will never be paid back and will inevitably one day end. However, these changes can cause radical social upheavals which leads to political instability and they may not always work. They may be misguided and not achive their desired goals of strengthening economies in the long run. Nevertheless, nations who receive IMF funds cannot be allowed to remain in their status quo. This is help designed to facilitate change, not to allow the prior and current conditions to prevail. There are certainly vested interests in each country that receives IMF funds who will not like those changes as they are not to their advantage. Quite the opposite.
Greece has the choice it always had, change or remain poor. Only now it really will have to change drastically or it will become much poorer very quickly. Continuation of its current culture of corruption and bureaucratic inefficiency subsidized and sustained from the outside with handouts is at an end. Some Greeks may not like it but they no longer have any time left to defer the inevitable consequences if they don't choose to change.
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250. At 3:46pm on 28 Feb 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Unlike other nations such as China, Japan, even India, Brazil, Russia, and European countries, these will be people from all walks of life from every country on earth. They will be drawn to America like a magnet and will bring with them their most valuable asset, their human potential which they will exploit to its fullest here and which we will all benefit from. This alone puts America's future prospects far ahead of everyone elses."
Isn't this all predicated hugely on whether or not China continues to shell out the credit the US needs. Maybe it's time the US called Goldman Sachs in to work a little deficit leger-de-main, before the launch of the "Amero" ;-). Maybe those who administrators in Greece who helped cook their books could consult?
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In our time IMF used to mean a large portion of American interests because you get a loan of a large percentage of American money.
How is it now no idea, I heard Russia is also these days contributing to IMF, but must be something little and accordingly our influence in it is also close to nil.
The EU loan, as I understand, is supposed to be German money?
Lovely choice for Greeks :o)))) to depend either on the USA or on Germany :o)))) I'd be lost myself.
By "distance" parameter the USA qualiffy better than Germany, but is there a distance if USA still supports Turkey? Do they, these days, by the way? Or, may be, cooled down a bit?
Germany is of course going to say Greece all the nasty words and it is morally heavy for the Greek to be begging of Germany, and nothing morally pleasant is going to be in that co-operation. But then if germany does not support Turkey, which parameter worries Greece the most - may be it is better to borrow from Germany and neglecct all they say, like, the hell. The main thing is that German insterest and Greek interests are not contradictory, plus, after all, tied in the same EU, ggermany seems to be better interested in Greece bright future than the USA.
A better option is of course to borrow from the EU in generl, from many countries at once. But then, the EU good will to Greece - is it really better than particular Germany's good-will for Greece? hard to say, with this Brussels and things. May be Germany alone, whatever they say orally, is better willing to Greece, in reality.
The best option of course is to simply default the hell, and not to own to anybody!
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Vassili, and that is for going back to 8.7% deficit. 2011 budget will be very interesting.
Tortilein, I seem to have that problem with writing. My sarcasm some times gets lost and I end up arguing with people I agree with. Btw, isn't it interesting that in an article about the tensions between Greek and German public opinion, most of the commentators from inside the eurozone mostly agree with eachother and we end up arguing with those outside?
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#256 Webalice
You misunderstand the structures. As I mentioned in #239, Greece is borrowing money in Deutsche Bank, which is a private enterprise.
You might get the impression from the heated discussions here that the Greek crisis is a bilateral crisis between Greece and Germany. It is not. It is a matter for the EU, and the foreign advisors in Athens are people from the EU commission, the European central bank (home of the Euro), and the IMF.
In the last couple of days Eurostat has entered the discussion. It was the people there, who back in 2003-04 discovered the faked books. The demand is that Greece also improve its statistics.
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Nik @234,
You ask "What is your problem then? Why do you commend?"
The answer is simple: this is a British Broadcasting Corporation site funded by my licence fee (tax) and as such I feel free to express my opinions no matter how unpalatable they may be to you.
I am not here to 'argue' with you. I just want to do my part to ensure that British taxpayers' money is not wasted on Greek mismanagement and corruption.
MAII @ 237 asks: " I have to wonder what holds the thing [Belgium] together except inertia."
The answer is simple: money - i.e. subsidies paid to Belgium by productive EU countries; and subsidies paid by the Flemish people to the Walloons in the name of 'national (ha!) solidarity'. All so that the Belgian political class can play host to the gravy trains and milch cows that are EU institutions.
(It is said that Belgium was created after the Battle of Waterloo just so to annoy its neighbours....)
vassilis @242 - Very impressive. Well said.
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Re 243: Menedemus, why do you ask if I am Greek? Is it any strange that a Greek finds not only pointless but actually negative a close collaboration with US? Do I need to mention Cyprus? Aegean? The fact that US will support every last real and imaginary enemy of Greece (please refer to details, I do not need to state who is currently the funding partner of all those ridiculous propagandas and why it is ONLY the anglosaxon media that is so negative against Greece).
Mind you this is by no means any anti-US rhetoric nor do I have any particular issue with Americans who are likeable fellows. It is simple net this: free market, pure capitalism. What can the US offer Greece? Can you account for this? Not only it offered nothing other than overly expensive non-appropriate weaponry but it also attacked it.
You really think I have any particular love to Russians or Chinese? Absolutely not. But if they offer more why shouldn't I examine the prospect of working with them? Because US is going to go belligerent? So what? They are already aggressive even as allies! Am I wrong for counting down the choices that today's multipolar world may offer? And do I attack anyone by saying that Greece has always the option of setting a nice Russian "commercial basis" in the southern Aegean (ha! that is the big point!). And why Greece should not benefit from a gaz pipeline? Capitalism. Where is my friend Marcus to comment on my defense of free market and capitalism? Or perhaps, if Marcus disagrees with this exact position of mine, might be more socialist than he really wants to admit - attention: this is an absolute trap: either position you take you have lost the argument (defending "free market" you defend Russia taking over Eastern Mediterranean, defending US interests you attack your own basic notions of capitalism). You can only avoid this by saying what you have on offer for Greece in this market. Is there anything there?
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In all seriousness at the end of the day it will be merely down to a bit of creative thinking. The biggest crooks, the banksters, were declared "system relevant" and were saved. Now Greece can easily be identified as such. "EU relevant" perhaps? Only remember cutting anybody's income was not the banksters' idea, they are collecting fat bonuses. If that is neo-liberalism let's have lots more of it. Or do we have to call Greece a bank first? The "Laymen Brothers" perhaps? Well, perhaps not that one. Anyway, let all system relevant EU citizen stand up please and wave an olive branch.
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apple, @ 236
:o)
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@MaxSceptic
thanks. Do not think that my views about our mentality and system are a minority in Greece. This is what we say among ourselves all the time. It is time to change.
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Micky;
"Isn't this all predicated hugely on whether or not China continues to shell out the credit the US needs."
No, not at all. They will come to America no matter what. It is the only place they will be accepted in spite of their ethnicity, religion, nationality. It is hte only place that will give them a fair chance. The whole world knows it. Even in China kept in the dark all those decades, the protestors at Tiananmin Square knew it. Their goddess of democracy was the statue of liberty, not because it was a gift from the French but because it was a symbol of America. Wherever you go in the world, somone you meet has a friend, a relative, an acquaintance who went to America and lives a normal life there. It's where you want to go when you have to go somewhere to escape a hopeless life no matter what the reason for that hopelessness is. They haven't stopped coming here for over 500 hundred years. They are not about to let a little thing like temporary hard times the result of recent financial mismanagement of the government, banks, private citizens stop them. They are welcome here. We want them to come.
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Mathiasen,
so Deutsche Bank might lend, and all those at once will run things in Greece still? :o)))) EU Commission, Central Bank and IMF ? Well, may be they will compete between themselves, and Greece will survive somehow :o)
As to their book-keeping, I suppose it can be improved.
On the book-keeping - anybody cares how Ukrainian ones will look like :o)))))) I mean, they are to be issued a road map to enter the EU soon, and at the end of that road map some "books" will also have to qualify. I am sure they will! :o)))))
Any one, complaining about Greeks being "byzantine" or "different culture" or "not really Europe" :o)))) - will change their wrong opinion after Ukraine is in. And fondly remember the good old times when countries who comprised the union were real , how to say :o)))) European, and with transparent fin. papers :o)))))
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vassilis @263,
In spite of my cynical attitude, I'd like to reassure you that I wish you and all your countrymen well.
Realism and objectivity is the best way forward when faced with such problems that initially seem intractable. Addressing one's own shortcomings is usually more productive than blaming others (Imperialist Yanks or Rapacious Turks) for one's plight.
Good luck!
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@MA-II on Belgium
Look at the borders. The border between the Czech Republic and Slovakia is very close to the old border of the Holy Roman Empire. The language border between Flanders and Wallonia runs along a near enough east-west line south of Brussels, but does not correspond to an ancient border. Brussels is now predominantly French speaking, yet clearly in the Flemish part. A split is not self-evident on this account.
@MaxSkeptic
Belgium was established in 1830 during a revolt against the Kingdom of the Netherlands. In the Middle Ages, Flanders florished economically by treating wool from sheep kept by their (annoying ? annoyed ?) neighbours across the channel. These neighbours later garantueed Belgian neutrality, and many of their soldiers lost their lives in the trenches in Flanders.
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MA, I understand that IMF comes to change the status quo, when you can't continue any longer in the current format and there is no way out but to change. And with the motto of prudency.
I swear nothing like that was achieved under IMF in Russia, neither changes whatsoever, stinking rotting still water it was, neither - prudency. It is only declared so, these two topics in particular.
I have a feeling we might be a one-off exception, because that was USA via IMF ripping the fruit of the victory in the cold war, the Cold War continuation, time to collect the rewards of it. Like a tail, a train, following the blast-out.
May be in other countries, to who USA do not have such a traditional grudge, accumulated in 40 years of standing opposite each other, it is easier, no such inertia thinking.
To Ukraine, for example, IMF/USA are supposed to be willing best, as a handle against Russia. Don't know how it is there between IMF/USA and long-term Ukr. survival, how the balance is maintained and is it.
Note Russians didn't complain about IMF rule because of some pension cuts or pension age increase or cut in government structures' payments, cuts in the public sector wages or any prudency measures of the kind.
- because there were none! :)))))
One thing we don't put against IMF rule - is doing anything "painful", from the list above :o))))
With state sector salaries, they were paid in barter when IMF took over, and were still paid in barter when IMF left. By boots a factory makes, by sugar a factory makes, by porcelain cups a factory makes - these type of un-monetary salaries to the employees. In science - simply un-paid. Nil. Nothing "to cut". Before or after IMF. Pensions were not paid in Russia for 3 years. Simply - not paid. Nothing to cut. With IMF or without. Government sector under IMF blew up and got over-inflated to enormous degrees. They all loved IMF as it didn't prevent them to steal and "privatise" nationa's wealth and the feeling was reciprocal :o))))
Russia was split cut and shared, between IMF and own monsters, to mutual satisfaction. Same mafia who quickly got acquainted and after some initial distrust in each other :o)))) they perfectly found a common language. We were open for grabs. And the more corrupted the Russian counterpart was for IMF - the better.
Why corrupted regional governors are always preferred in Russia over un-corrupted ones? Because Kremlin has a handle against them, in case of disobedience. Same principle.
Under IMF robbery of Russia only got intensified, as reached international degrees. The way we got out of it was jump up in oil prices that provided for a money in-flux, and the following decision of own "elites" that it is far better to grabatise all themsleves and not to share with international crooks, because, like, - why to share?
So they paid off the loans and politely asked IMF out , kind of, thank you very much, we aren't going to share profits with you any longer. We have good appetite ourselves :o)))
Russia stopped sharing, and by the way that's when immediately there began the aaah how nasty they are, back to the old Empire or whattever Stalin rules, leopards don't change their spots, etc.
Instead of saying simply - you are greedy, Kremlin, that's not friendly :o)) why suddenly end of the swell party it was going so well.
:o(
:o))))) !
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That's why Russia stays alone in the world now.
Our fresh capitalists learned how to grab, but didn't learn the lesson that when you are capitalist - you also share with other mafia. Otherwise you are out of the club, with your abnormal greed :o)))
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I am sure Russian capitalists will learn to share :o))) and we will be "in the Club". Simply, excuse them, they are not used to money, fresh news, naturally initially greedy, as they know it's a one-off and might not last long :o))))
So many years of USSR poverty behind the shoulder and all.
If things go more or less OK - they will start to share. With other crooks. I am optimistic, in this regard.
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To democracythreat (227):
If and when IMF intervenes into monetary policies of a country it is because there is some state intervention to it. For example a country has fixed exchange ratio that is either too low or high, or country has too high or too low interest rates, too high inflation, etc.. Usually the most important thing for the IMF is to make sure that the countrys central bank has and can maintain needed reserves to allow foreign trade: exports and imports. The usual IMF mixture is to let the currency float, usually let it devalue itself, rise interest rates to attract foreign capital so that central bank reserves are adequote to allow normal foreign trade, and fight inflation to allow stabilization of the business enviroment.
In case of Greece and monetary policy, because it belong to the Eurozone, many problems that usually need fixing are already fixed. Euro is floating currency, ECB has amble foreign reserves and Euro itself is usable currency inside the 300 million inhibitant Eurozone, and ECB is serious about fighting inflation. In essence there is nothing to fix in the monetary policy, it allows companies to engage to foreign trade and allows stabile business enviroment.
In Greece what the IMF would be doing would only be to concentrate on cutting state expenses, rise tax collection and maybe try to remove unneccary burecracy that hampers the private sector. Trying to do anything else would result into much harsher and worse conditions. For example having the Greece state going bankcrupt doesn't really cause problems to Greek companies, they still have reliable and usable currency and can get loans cheaply either from Greek or Eurozone banks. However if Greece had their own currency and their state would go bankcrupt, it would be game over for the economy. Now having the state go bankcrupt from a view of a corporation is just alittle unpleasent moment.
In case of the IMF and the Eurozone, their targets are largely the same, to make states to have finances that are durable in long term. The difference between the two of them is that ECB and the Eurozone don't have neither stick or carrot to offer. States either try to follow set up guidelines or face up market judgement. If IMF would start to manage Greece the area of what they would be managing would be Greek state expenditure and finances. For the ECB and Eurozone it is the same who corrects Greek state finaces, be it the domestic govermeant or the IMF, what only matter is that budget will be balanced.
There is actually another reason why IMF intervention maybe used in case of Greece, namely it is much easier for the ECB and other Eurozone states explain to their domestic audiences that monies will not be wasted because IMF is there to make sure that it won't happen, plus other Eurozone don't have to deal directly with Greece, they have a neutral correspondent to do it: no akward situations in the next EU conference.
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@Tortilein
I wish you would resist the use of the term "third world country", to label a nation or nations and therefore it's people is at best stupid. It is a way of expressing a wish that it should remain so by those using it and those accepting it. It has nothing to do with not accepting reality, but movement is also a reality in all sort of things, be it morality or social wellbeing. Unfortunately people have come to believe that money represents intelligence and they end up adopting their behavior accordingly. They will of course be the poorer for it.
Do you post anything in Colombia as you do here? Let me know if you do. I might have look.
Regards
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271. At 6:25pm on 28 Feb 2010, Jukka Rohila wrote:
I agree 100% Jukka.
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@MaxSceptic
I do not find you cynical at the slightest (honestly). Simply realistic.
I do not think that currently any country is in a shape that can bail out others. I had a look in passing the UK financial figures and did not look exactly excellent. (Of course Greek big problems are much much deeper. On Turks, mentality remnants from 4 centuries of Turkish occupation and a turbulent history of wars and civil wars might explain but do not justify current practices. In any case we have no excuse for the last 30 years, I believe that during the last 30 years we have made very very serious mistakes and lost opportunities to change. This is widely recognised in Greek society. We have only ourselves to blame. I hope we manage to start changing now. Better late than never).
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smroet @267,
I was just being spiteful - a bit like the Colin Farrell character in the film 'In Bruge'.
I actually know quite a bit about Belgium and especially Brussels - and love visiting (I especially like the architecture and the food). This, however, doesn't contradict my opinion about the corrupt and ineffectual nature of Belgian politics, and that this 'non-country' has reached its 'sell-by' date and an amicable divorce between the Walloons and the Flemish is the most likely outcome once that house of cards known as the EU falls apart.
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Vassilis while I agree with most you say, you actually take quite a lighthearted way sometimes - for example attributing recent Greek mistakes to some short of Ottoman-influenced behaviour while it is the very British political mafia (Papandreou, Karamanlis and the rest) that governed the country for the last 60 years and brought it on its knees - together with the 2 US-backed dictaroships (imagine, they did not like their own first one and they brought him down to put the next one!!!).
Call things with its name. No Ottomans are responsible for that.
To dear Max. Nobody asked him to pay. But can he give his support to Greek just geopolitical cause in the region? It has also free oil for his country's companies. What is his problem BP going there drilling along with us and making 10 times more money than the ones needed to bail out Greece 10 times? Does he object to that too?
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It seems to me that Europe has become extremely decadent. There was a time, in particular during the cold war and in the 1990s when all a government of a failing European economy needed to do was remind Germany of its past and the German monies would flow. This self-indulgent attitude has left Greece and many other declining nations vulnerable to their own worsening inability to run a successful economy on their own. Those countries have become so dependent on bailouts, they have forgotten to look after themselves without depending on others.
Now those many long decades of refusing to look after themselves are beginning to catch up with them - Germany and other successful economies are no longer as willing as they used to be to hand out freebies to just about anyone who conjures up Germany's past. This is only partly due to the fact that the fourth post-war generation has now reached adulthood and the number of those who actually remember WW2 is dwindling. The most important reason is simply the sheer size of the European Union - even if it wanted to, Germany simply could not supply 25 European nations with a steady stream of government handouts, just because the leaders of those nations know how to pronounce the word "Nazi".
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@Nik
Our politicians, our mistakes. I do not believe in conspiracies. I did not accuse the Ottomans at all but only ourselves for not modernising our state (believe you me it is not modernised). We got a lot of funding from EU during the last 30 years and we did not use it wisely. Our state is inefficient, there is no meritocracy etc. I do not say that all is perfect for many other EU countries. But frankly I don't give a monkey's. We have to look deeply inside our soul and wonder what happened in the last 30 years.
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Chris... you keep referring to the Nazi reference. First of all let me remind you that Germany has never paid proper war reparations to Greece: the issue thus remains open for good no matter if Germans do not like it. It is up to them to come forward with some productive proposal. We will not close it to make them feel better even if Greeks have been excellent partners of Germans being both cheap hands for German production and great consumers of German output. We do not plan to spoil our good relations with the Germans but we cannot sit down listen to poisonous attacks either.
Second, we do not mix up the issues. It goes withoutsaying (as mentioned 10 times above) that the German reparations are a completely different issue that should not be mixed up in this current crisis. And of course we should not give that much importance to what an old fat remnant of the socialistocommunist paradises Mr. Pangalos has to say, it just does not matter and I feel bad people gave so much importane to his sayings. This is a guy that swears at any journalist making a difficult for him question, a guy that calls nazi and fascists any Greek having a different view with him - albeit he is a grandson of a short-ruled dictator himself (ha! even if his grandfather though a good military tacticia, had been a ridiculous political figure), do you think that he would spare the Germans?
I will say it again and again and again:
Nobody in Greece asked your (EU countries) money. Everybody in Greece asks your political support you treacherously refuse to give for 30 years now. Instead you kept blindly giving packets of money that you knew were going directly to the "sharks" over which the Greek people have no control - this is a situation that predates Greece's EU integration and has to do with the left & right wing nomenclature imposed on Greece by Britain during and after the WWII (no hard feelings for British friends but British politics have been extremely aggressive against Greece, USA simply inherited this stance and down to the basics have never been as aggressive as British have been - thus much of what I call cheap-lighthearted anti-americanism in Greece is belated not expressed anti-Britishness unfortunately expressed mainly by one of the country's main cancers of the last 60 years, what I call the "leftwingness" and its derivatives gauche-caviar & cheap-anarchy).
Most of you have virtually no idea what I am talking about. Maybe that is an issue that even few Greeks (fortunately at an increasing rate) can understand.
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@Chris Camp
With all due respect, your text is full of factual inaccuracies (e.g. 'dependent on bailouts' I do not remember any bailout neither now nor in the past). I am prepared to do my self-criticism but I cannot accept such oversimplifications. We covered the Germany's reparations issue from the Greek perspective. Issue is not closed (clearly put by Greek PM), court decisions already taken for atrocities are outstanding because Germans refuse to even talk about them for many years (there are laws and procedures and they have to be followed by everybody, you cannot pick and choose), and a 'loan' which still appears in German books (I've read this recently) has not been paid back. Loan nothing to do with current crisis of course but also nothing to do with the money Greece got from EU. For people who say that 70 years is long time ago I just want to say that I was reading in Greek press that Greece has very recently paid back the last payment for a loan had taken back in 1830s. One of the first loan as an independent country.
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Why are the Germans so upset? If it wasn't because of the very generous handout they received from the American taxpayers through the Marshall Plan, I doubt it very much they would be what they are today. Furthermore, I don't think they would have been able to pay billions in reparations to the Jewish nation of Israel and its people. Why haven't they paid the legitimate reparations claims to the Greek people?
Even though, the issue of Euro is an isolated one, Germany cannot, and should not be allowed to escape it's historical role, the damages and destruction it caused others, and the benefits they received from others!
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"Why are the Germans so upset?"
I do not think it is the Germans who ae upset. A few people in Greece seem to have a problem with the cover of a German magazine and now they are beginning to whine about WW2 again. This is what I mean when I say Europe has become decadent. One is reminded of the caricatures of the prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper, after which Danish people were barred from entering Gaza, amongst a few other things (what an awful punishmentby the way - barred from Gaza! How will the Danish people ever recover from that?).
As for the Marshall Plan - the amount of money the American economy has "borrowed" from European tax payers since 1945 exceeds the amount of money given to Europe through the Marshall Plan nearly twenty times over.
I have been living in Germany for long enough now to say that Germany's sense of historic responsibility puts every other nation on the planet to shame. Yes, Germany has been looking after Holocaust and WW2 victims for many years and will be looking after them for many more years to come (which is far more than can be said of any American or British efforts to compensate Africans or native Americans).
This does not change anything about my perception that many Europeans have become decadent - they conjure up Germany's Nazi past not because they want money for Holocaust survivors living in their midst, but because they want to milk tax payers in economically successful nations for more money to sustain their life style. Just like the American middle class, which largely lives on money borrowed from China and Europe, they have been living above their means for far too long and do not know how to look after themselves anymore.
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@Chris Camp
'beginning to whine about WW2 again'
Again factually wrong. We don't begin now. This is an outstanding issue between Greece and Germany for many years. Our PM as Foreign minister of previous governments has raised the issue numerous times. The issue is still open. We are not going to be bullied on the issue and at some point has to be settled (one way or the other, I do not say that the Germans have to necessarily pay the 'loan' for example, but for the atrocities probably yes they have to pay, however that fact that they even refuse to discuss is immoral in my book and not giving back the 'loan' stealing to say the least). Greece will never give up its just claims. We won't be bullied on the matter. Period.
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Hey Chris, it seems to me that everybody is an expert. Just because they read a few historical pages in a magazine, or visited a few countries for a few weeks, or even months, do not become expert overnight. They do not have the necessary acquired knowledge to provide an informed and responsible opinion. As for what you mentioned that we Americans have "borrowed" from German taxpayers, my only answer, if we, and other nations, did not buy your products, it would have very, very, difficult for your nation to prosper. So, be grateful! Furthermore, pay your obligations to the nations that were victimized by your compatriots. It's about time!!!!
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vassilis - I am a great admirer of the Greek nation, so I would like to know who it is that is trying to "bully" Greece into doing anything. Would you mind telling me? I would like to give whoever it is a very stern talking to.
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Re #281
Why not indeed. The Germans invaded Russia so why don't they take on their responsibility for paying the Kremlin's bills. What about the rest of Europe, the Germans pretty much invaded every nation except Sweden and Switzerland (Sorry, Jukka, you don't get a Euro out of Germany!)
This sort of historical blame game makes me laugh! How can anyone suggest that the descendants of people who commited real or imaginary acts of aggression pay reparations for their forebears activities?
How far do you go back?
Napoleon invading Russia? Julius Caesar and The Romans pacifying Gaul? The Macedonians invading Persia 300 years after Persia had invaded Greece?
Germany has no moral responsibility for helping Greece but it may have a technical benefit in doing so and that is because it too uses the Euro and so guaranteeing any Greek Loan - taken out to ensure that Greece can repay its imminent debt instalment - would ensure that the EU keeps managing the Euro "in-house" (i.e. the rescue does not involve the IMF) and ensure that the Euro does not devalue beyond a reasonable low conversion rate and start too become worthless damaging the German economy.
No nation can be responsible for the alleged or real crimes of their ancestors and modern Germany has more than paid for the Third Reich by the way it has almost single-handedly ensured the success of the Euro to date and it is entirely wrong to suggest that the modern day German should suffer damage to their economy to bailout the Greeks unless they, the Germans, are willing to do this as an act of comradeship with the Greeks who are going to have to suffer greatly under the current austerity package which may well become even more austere in the next few days and weeks.
In reference to the Marshall Plan, lets not kid ourselves. As magnanimous as the Americans were in donating funds to Europe to help Europe recover from the Second World War, The Great War or World War II or howsoever you might name it - such financial and commercial assistance came with serious strings attached. Lets not forget the America insisted that France only show American films in French Cinemas for years after the war (I am sure that was the real reason that Charles DeGaulle hated the Americans so much!)and much of America's industrial output had to be consumed by europeans using the financial inputs provided by America. That is not to say the Americans were not generous but they were not entirly altruistic in their motivation to generate the Marshall Plan for the recovery of Europe.
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Dear TorquemadaTheJustNY and Chris Camp,
The whole thing is plain street politics. Votes and nothing more.
Greece says that the war reparations issue is open for the last 65 years and Germany says it is closed. Who is right, it is a mater of diplomats and lawyers to solve.
The problem is why now? Votes.
The Greek government is about to take a huge austerity program that will hurt a lot of people. And the EU/Germany imposes that to us. So the opposition, any opposition yells its heart out "Why let them treat you like this. Just ask for war reparations". Nice way to get some votes.
The fact is, that if any of the opposition parties were in the government while the current government was in the opposition, we would had Papandreou yelling for war reparations. If you say that Pangalos is a member of the government then I suggest that you hear exactly what he said. He said it on BBC for Greek ears.
I bet that the situation is the same in Germany. No mater how the (any)German government handles this, the opposition there will yell, "Bailout from the German tax payers".
Sad truth. Even if this crisis wasn't here, we would probably had to invent it. We need to fix our economy and our public sector.
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The Greeks don't like to pay taxes (or to work much) and now they're lashing out at more responsible societies such as Germany like spoiled brats when their government doesn't have enough money to govern their country any longer... this isn't exactly an impressive performance for a country that now needs outside help to save itself. I'm with the Germans 100% on this - Germany may have its share of problems, but a lack of social responsibility and engagement is not one of them. Most of Germany's problems are caused more by a combination of social and fiscal responsibility than anything else, in my view, but regardless, Germans pretty much do pay their taxes. And they get a functional society in return so it's a fine deal. Greeks, on the other hand, don't even seem adult enough to take responsibility for their own mistakes. Again, this is not impressive. Fundamentally it suggests they are really not going to be okay, if they can't even face up to what the problem is and their own responsibility for it, so there's hardly any use in anyone from other countries trying to "help" them if they can't even make a pretense of acting like disciplined adults when they're begging for a bailout from the countries they have put in economic jeopardy.
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#286
I agree that children should not be responsible for the crimes of their parents, so long as they do not benefit from it. However, I do object to "selectively" decide what crimes they acknowledged. Why pay reparations to one group, and no the other? Do you catch my drift?
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@MarcusAureliusII By thinking that facts are unimportant details you prove what a fool you are and when you start name calling(Vaseline,Spartacus etc.)it means you have lost the argument.
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christophergill, do you actually believe that if Greece was not a member of the eurozone, none of this would have happened? Euro would be immune to every threat?
Weakest link is the link that is weaker than all the others. If Greece wasn't in the eurozone, then your weakest link would be someone else. The only way to eliminate weakest links, is to go back to DM.
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TorquemadaTheJustNY - I think a few people will by now have spotted a few faults in your arguments.
1.) You are saying that without European money lent to America, America would not be capable of consuming European products. By the same token... if America had not given money to western European nations after WW2, American products would have been consumed by... who?
2.) You say that younger generations should not be held responsible for the crimes of their forbears - so long as they do not profit from those crimes? Does that mean that all white Americans should evacuate America in your opinion?
addendum - I should be curious to find out who you think my "compatriots" are and how much money America has so far transferred onto the accounts of Vietnamese families whose relatives were raped and murdered by American GIs.
Returning to the issue at hand. I was under the impression that the current misgivings started with the cover of a German magazine.
The argument that makes most sense to me is the one put forward by you, Christos. By the way, I was appalled by the way to hear the BBC journalist egged him on. It makes me want to level a few compensation claims of my own. I bought TV licenses in Britain for many years and this is what I get for it? I want my money back.
Similar to many atrocities committed against mankind, I think that, sadly, many Greek victims have died and will die not seeing a penny in compensation of what they were put through. This is awful and intolerable, but unfortunately, it is not rare. Most Tutsi will never get any money from the Hutu. No Vietnamese family will ever get any money from any American government.
But even against this very bleak backdrop, one must not forget which governements have at least made some efforts to pay compensation to some of their country's victims and which governments have made no efforts whatsoever.
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@TorquemadaTheJustNY
I think you are reading well what it is implied ;-) if you choose whom to pay and especially you pay those who are strong and have backers across the Atlantic and not some others who do not have any backers you can hardly claim that you have the high moral ground or you have come in terms with the past. You have partially come in terms with the past. In fact you are killing the other group a second time because you say that their deaths (in some cases in even worse way) is not valued as much as the others. Let's call a spade a spade and it looks pretty pathetic to me then to give any lessons on ethics.
Oh Well.... Whatever I say it does not matter. People here ignore many facts... etc. etc.
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re #289
What did the Romans do for us, eh?
The Romans invaded Gaul and Britannia ...... I think it is high time Berlusconi ordered the Romans to pay France and the UK reparations - especially as the Romans were out on the street daring to demonstrate against Berlusconi yesterday!
The Germnas have almost single-handedly bankrolled the the EU and the Eurozone and to this day are the biggest contributor to the funding of the EU. Let us not forget that of the 27 EU nations, only 5 are net contributors ..... the other 22 EU Nations are net recipients of the bounty of shared wealth redistributed from the EU - and this pot of (mainly German) Dangeld has been more than happily consumed within corrupt economies such as that of Greece.
I think it is a bit rich to play the blame game on the Germans when they HAVE contributed to the prosperity of the wealth of Europe which Western Europe, in particular, has enjoyed since the 1950s and, through the EU, has given away billons of Euros that have been misspent and wasted by the recipient countries through no fault of the Germans.
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#292
You proved my point!
Your circumvented response conveniently ignores the points I made:
1. Why do "these children" select the crimes they wish to face, while ignoring others?
2. Why choose to pay reparations to some and not others?
3. After WW2, France did not complain because they were rewarded fantastically well: A permanent seat, with veto power, in the Security Council of United Nations. Not bad at all!
As to how far back into history we should reach to right wrongs, my answer is very simple, for as long as we keep our double standards. We let Israel, and support its historical claim to land in the Middle East, while ignoring, very legitimate claims by others. Why the double standards?
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@Chris Camp
If a group has been compensated and you are in another group and you are a descendent of a victim who has been brutaly murdered in the most despicable way and you are not compensated, these theories of yours do not hold any water. In this case you laugh aloud when you hear the people refusing to even discuss court decisions on compensations to talk about ethical issues in whatever matter.
I am reading in the Greek press that the German left is in favour of settling the issue. I am sure that it will be done at some point. Of course this has nothing to do with the Greek deficit etc.
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Chris Camp,
I am Greek and I feel that Germany still owns us our war reparations. I don't want their money though. Money is putting a price tag over a dead man's body. It is stupid. Lives don't have a price.
What I want as war reparations, is equipment for our schools and a few scholarships for our best students. Let the past invest in our future.
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Had the German government and German people simply been satisfied to be Germany they would not be in this mess. However, with the devastation of WWII two generations or more behind them, with the prospect of being invaded by the USSR very low first due to its American military guarantor and then by the collapse of the USSR and its military, Germans began thinking again in much larger terms. Not an empire by a military conquest this time but running a political empire along with the French as their partners. Irratonal as ever, they engineered this trap and now they are caught in it. I for one have no sympathy for them. They WILL bail out all of the PIIGS and grab France by the arm and put them on the hot seat with them if they have to or they will face the consequences of the collapse of this absurd currency they invented. This time Uncle Sam will not bail them out. Germahy will be brought down to the level of Portugal, not the other way around.
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thanks for the answer, jukka. It is a reasonable position to take. But will the EU be reasonable? I mean, will the architects of the EU be satisfied to let another pan national institution come in and succeed where they have failed? Will their egos allow it?
I'm not so sure. I can't see how it would work for the IMF, either.
I mean, the IMF is not some holy institution, created by the impartial god of all men. It is an American institution, in practical terms, and the EU is a trading bloc devoted to the idea of improving trade for its member states.
So how will the contributers to the IMF loans feel about stepping in to help fix a trading bloc that operates a currency that many see as a challenger to the US dollar as the world's reserve currency?
I don't see the purist economic arguments about the benefits to the globe eclipsing the partisan arguments about geopolitical economic power from Washington. Call me cynical, you'd not be the first.
At the very least, I think the IMF would ask for concessions from the EU itself, and that puts us right back where we are now: the debate about whether the EU institutions have the competency or the political mandate to make promises about how the eurozone is managed.
After all, isn't that the fundamental problem? If the EU institutions were in a position to make binding promises about what happens in the eurozone, we wouldn't have this mess.
So I think you might find the IMF will ask a quid pro quo of the EU that the EU cannot give. In short, it will ask it to fix the mess itself or let greece and the other member states make their own deals with the IMF, as independent currencies.
But i've been wrong before, goodness knows.
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Mendacious;
"The Germnas have almost single-handedly bankrolled the the EU and the Eurozone and to this day are the biggest contributor to the funding of the EU. Let us not forget that of the 27 EU nations, only 5 are net contributors ..... the other 22 EU Nations are net recipients of the bounty of shared wealth redistributed from the EU"
Since each new nation that enters the EU must be admitted by unanimous consent, the Germans have no complaint. They agreed to every one of them even though most of them would cost German citizens money. Why did they do that? Did they actually believe they would one day be rid of the burden and these nations would stand on their own? Giving money to a begger without making it conditional on change only keeps him a beggar. Any notion that this would raise up those countries is at best naive, at worst cynical. In other words they were buying an empire with their money. If they really had cared they'd have insisted demonstration of change before accepting them. This might have been after some kind of aid but there would have had to have been some positive indicator. That there wasn't only proves the Germans weren't concerned, they just wanted to buy an empire. Now they have one, times are tough, they still have to pay to maintain it. That's life in the fast lane Germany. If you want to swim with the sharks...don't bleed. Or bleat!
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democracythreat @#299
I'll eat my words if the IMF actually get involved in the rescue of the Greek Economy.
If the IMF is called in then it is a tacit admission that the EU nations that use the Euro cannot provide equity to bail out Greece by providing sufficient guarantees and loans to support any loans that Greece needs to obtain to stave off failure to pay their imminent debt interest payments (which is the fear/concern that is preying on the mind of the creditor banks). Such a tacit admission would be the death knell of the Euro and the Eurozone nations cannot politically accept that happening - not after all the effort and deceit that the politicians have invested in creating the EU and the Euro.
In the event of the IMF coming into the frame they will augment and generate more austerity upon Greece than the Greeks can possibly imagine because I suspect that the state of the Greek economy is far worse than has been admitted even by the most recent open (and supposedly frank) admissions that led to the current run on the Greek credit rating being announced.
I believe that we will see an EU rescue package offered to the Greek goverenment during this coming week and this will be guarantees made to German and French banks who will then extend loans to the value of 25 billion Euros to Greece as International Loans
The downside for the Greeks will be that the current proposed austerity package that Mr Pangalos has imposed will be made even more austere by agrrement with the rest of the Eurozone nations to satisfy the German government to limit the liklihood of the Greek government defaulting.
I think it will be a mistake as I suspect that 25 billion Euros will prove insufficient and also be a bad move for Germany as I fear that the Greek citizens are going to rebel against the additional austerity measures and that Pangalos will be deposed, Greece default and the Germans/French/others will get captured for 25 billion Euros which will further damage the German economy and hit the German citizens in the pocket!
The whole scenario is starting to look like a Dad lending their kid money for paying of the kid's credit card interest-only payments and only slowly seeing the credit card debt reduce but Dad's money and ability to lend rapidly decline with the end result that the Credit Card debt is not paid off and Dad runs out of his life savings and is just left with his old-age pension to live on.
Who would have kids eh?
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How wise art thou Marcus?
I don't and cannot disgaree with you. The EU is an empire dreamed up by the French but bought out by the Germans so that they are the true inheritors of the ulitimate power ..... thus we see the Germans manoevering to get their man in charge of the European Central Bank. As it was with your Roman Empire, it is with the EU; the EU Empire is all about income and revenue vs aggrandisement and protection of the Senate and Emperor.
The Germans bought into the EU to get their hands on empire but the trouble with empires is that the tribes on the periphery are always a pain in the neck for the Emperor! You'll know all about that. ;)
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@Menedemus
PM is Papandreou, deputy PM is Pangalos. Papandreou takes decisions, deputy not very important. So, you think there is no rescue. Interesting, I'd better translate my CV in English :-)
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Question: What happens if a country defaults? If it says I have no money to pay my debts? Nothing, null. Can it start again with a clean sheet? What are the consequences?
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Menedemus @286
"Re #281. Why not indeed. The Germans invaded Russia so why don't they take on their responsibility for paying the Kremlin's bills. (What about the rest of Europe, the Germans pretty much invaded every nation except Sweden and Switzerland (Sorry, Jukka, you don't get a Euro out of Germany!)"
Thanks a million, Menedemus, of course :o))) for standing up or, like, mentioning us :o))))
- there isn't such money in Germany, wasn't and will not be.
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I like the man and how he sang the Olympic hymn :o)
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Vaseline;
"Question: What happens if a country defaults? If it says I have no money to pay my debts? Nothing, null. Can it start again with a clean sheet? What are the consequences?"
What would happen if you went into default and didn't pay your debts? Besides people sueing to take away your assets in compensation instead, the answer is that nobody would lend you money because you have proven yourself untrustworthy to pay lenders back. Then you live within your means without credit plus what you can beg. Problem for Greece is that there are far poorer countries who are begging to just keep their people from starving to death. That is what the IMF and emergency relief agencies are for, not to keep corrupt governments from not having to change their ways.
The problem for the rest of the Euro-twilight zone is that nobody knows for sure what impact Greece's default would have for the rest of the countries that use the Euro. Would credit be denied them? Would the Euro collapse on world markets? They are scared to find out. If the worst happens, all of their economies will freeze up on zero credit just as the entire world almost did in the fall of 2008.
If credit is just denied to the rest of the PIIGS expecting they will go the same way, it could result in social and political chaos when those governments have to shut down and not pay their workers. Interesting times.
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oj Gergiev directs "Time, forward!"
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Vasily, may be it's wise to check when is the next payment due, during the year, servicing your state obligations/bonds. This one is March; when is the next portion due?
I'd also try to find out what is the interest per year now, on these state bonds issued.
We defaulted in 1998, Russia. Don't remember any property abroad grabatised as a result, or someone un-willing to give us credit later on :o)
But may be we defaulted, like , temporarily? Paid it up later? Don't even remember. Was so awful tiger year, 12 yrs ago sharp.
The thing is also that the debt started small (as it always happens:o) but then it was so excellently managed :o))) under wise IMF guidancce :o))))
Well, not small - but just imagine how it went - from 36 per cent a year (interest Russia paid to state bonds holders :o)))) - to 150% a year :o))) - and very, very many prudent "investors" joined at that stage - but it was going on. Nobody wanted the end of the show. For about a year and a half clever Russia paid 2 156% interest :o) - then the pyramid was improving... improving... and the last 4 months (before the big bang :o( :o)))) sudden, how to say, inability to service the debt :o)))) - in full earnesty, the investors were buying Russia's state bonds at 350% interest a year.
Who were all these people, one may wonder.
Answer - no idea.
The state bond holders never advertised themselves.
Russian banks used the opportunity to rob the population, explained they also had state obligations in their portfolio :o))) (nobody would check them if they were indeed :o))) anyway they said they can't return deposits to private deposit holders, and grabatised all current accounts in teh country and all deposits in the banks. Then ran abroad with the money. I lost all I had in 2008 and I am sure will never earn even a tenth of it again.
As we say "In Russia, there is only one stage of capital formation - the first one. Also, it is the last one. " :o))))
So I recommend you to find out somehow, what is the interest you currently service your Greek state obligations with. Never wrong , as min you'd know you are alright. Because there can be unpleasant discoveries :o)))
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WA and MAII
sick of this debate, sorry:)
Lets get preposterous upon the Bospherus,
It's Istanbul, no it's Constantinople
no, it's Istanbul, no it's Constantinople
no, it's Istanbul, no it's Constantinople,
theres no way to get to Constantinople.
even old New York was once New Amsterdam, hey
why they changed it, I can't say
people just liked it better that way
naa, na na, naa, naaa,
naa, na na, naa, naaa,
cant go back to Constantinople
no, you cant go back to Constantinople
because it's Istanbul, not Contantinople
Constantinople never works
nothing more amusing than the Turks
heyyyy
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WA,
I liked the Russian anthem that they played at the ceremonies tonite:)
David
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To: democracythreat post #299
CC: Menedemus post #301, Jukka Rohila post #271, vassilis post #304
Re: plausibility of IMF underwriting Greece. Or World War III.
Democracythreat, hi.
I've been trying to wargame the options in my head. Tell me what you think...
OPTION 1: GREECE DEFAULTS
The Greek government auctions bonds in Euros to cover its cashflow. Nobody buys them. The Greek government can't raise its tax take fast enough and runs out of money. Greek police, border guards, hospitals and armed forces don't get paid. Riots and possibly tanks on the streets. The Greek government falls immediately, to be replaced by the opposition party or a military dictatorship. They *still* can't pay the public sector wages. Greece becomes a failed state. It launches a military adventure because it's run out of ideas: probably an invasion of Turkey (a few years ago, the US - CIA, I think - identified Turkey as a flashpoint). Turkey and Greece are both NATO. Turkey calls on NATO for assistance, Greece calls on NATO and the EDA. The Americans lose patience with the whole farrago and invade and occupy Greece. The dollar becomes Greece's de facto currency.
Under this scenario the state of the Euro is the *least* of everybody's problems...
OPTION 2: IMF BUYS GREEK BONDS
The Greek government auctions bonds in Euros to cover its cashflow. The IMF buys them in return for a neoliberal reconstruction of Greek governance. The Greek government uses the IMF money to pay its public sector workers but lays many of them off. Demonstrations on the streets, but the Greek government remains in place until the next elections.
Under this scenario the Euro, oddly, stabilises: the IMF works in dollars but the Greek bonds are in Euros. So lots of US dollars get sold to buy lots of Euros to buy Greek bonds which nobody else wants.
OPTION 3: ECB/EUROZONE BUYS GREEK BONDS
The Greek government auctions bonds in Euros to cover its cashflow. The ECB/Eurozone buys them in return for a Eurozone-approved reconstruction of Greek governance. The Greek government uses the ECB/Eurozone money to pay its public sector workers but lays many of them off. Demonstrations on the streets, but the Greek government remains in place until the next elections.
Under this scenario the Euro falls: the ECB/Eurozone sells lots of Euros to buy Greek bonds which nobody else wants.
Regards, viewcode.
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It is unbelievably stupid for Greece to raise the issue of the Nazi regime stealing Greek gold. That was a long time ago, and lots of other countries could make similar claims, if they were silly enough. Germans should no more feel responsible for the crimes of Hitler, than should Russians for the excesses of Stalin. Moreover, the simple fact is that Germany has bankrolled the Euro through the recent crisis and would be ultimately responsible for any bailout of the mess that passes for an economy in Greece. Most people recognise that you don't bite the hand that feeds you! Greeks should be very humble at the moment; they need friends. They also need to work hard, and to work hard for less. But, most important, they need to sort out their frankly dishonest attitude to tax. At least 25% of Greek taxes go unpaid as the citizens sustain the black economy. This is not only morally wrong, it is also very stupid. How do these people expect their economy to work? Could they manage their households if someone came in and took 25% of their cash every month?
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There are twelve net contributors in the EU and Germany is by far the largest. Cyprus is actually net contributor, and guess, which country is the largest net beneficiary: Greece. The numbers can be seen here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start
In the meantime German media reports that France is deeply involved in finding a solution, and that the Greek PM is coming to Berlin on Friday. Then we shall see if the Greek PM think it is the right time to raise the question of reparations.
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It was Winston Churchill in the late forties who advocated an United States of Europe. Would he be pleases with the progress that has been made?
The European Project is the responsible way forward. Germany had to provide a lot of engine power, but remember they also had to overcome two totalitarian regimes. Since they made a very bad job of the more recent one, unnecessarely creating much more unemployment in the East. Twenty years ago to this day they started an organisation (the Treuhand)to deal with all businesses East, which resulted in West Germans taking over for very little money often businesses that East Germans could not get although they were better equipped for it. Valuable businesses like the national airline were destroyed while being a profitable business. Competition for the Lufthansa was not wanted. Unification was much more a takeover by the West of the East. Since then enormous sums had to be raised to reconstruct the East. This continues to this day and will last a few more years. Inspite of this the East is depopulating quite precariously, 16 million to now 13 million. This is forecast to drop to 8 million by 2060. This will require more remedial action, which means money. To expect Germany to pick up the tab for faltering EU countries simply because they have been able to do so in the past is not very sensible to say the least. The Germans will have to pay for their own costly mistakes. The Greek problem seems minute in comparison and I am sure the Greeks are proud enough to deal with their own, even if it means changing a few old habits.
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vassilis @#303
Potato or Tomato, it matters not a jot.
I did not suggest that there would not be a resuce package for the Greek Economy.
I suggest that the IMF will not be invited to intervene but I expect that a Eurozone guaranteed internal banking market is the more likely intervention into the Greek economy that will be delivered.
Unfortunately for the Greeks, the self-imposed austerity package that they were protesting about this past week is also goning to have EUrozone demands for becoming even more austere.
If they didn't like the current internally-imposed austerity package they are going to hate the externally-demanded austerity package that is heading their way!
My bet is that the cuts in civil service and public expenditure costs are going to become draconian but it is the most sure-fired way to reduce government expenditure quickly.
The United Kingdom Parliament that will sit after the forthcoming UK General Election will be having to imposing similar civil service and public expenditure programs regardless of party promises to the contrary and the British are going to hurt too. So it is going to be a common pain shared across Europe!
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Excellent Viennese newspaper Wiener Kurier reports faults with Eurofighters.
Some years ago a newspaper (The European?) had an article in which it said something like anything including the word Euro is rubbish. As I see it, the "EU"-lovers are so obsessed with the creation of a Greater European Reich that common sense goes out of the widow when they hear the word Euro. That results in a load of rubbish being foisted on the peoples of Britain and Europe, like the channel tunnel.
In general there is so much in the Austrian media which shows up the stupidity of the Eurointegrationist cause that I cannot get round to reporting it all.
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315. At 07:48am on 01 Mar 2010, jablko wrote:
"It was Winston Churchill in the late forties who advocated an United States of Europe. Would he be pleases with the progress that has been made? "
EUpris: He made it clear that he meant without the UK.
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"Icelandic opposition to EU membership hardens"
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100027853/icelandic-opposition-to-eu-membership-hardens/
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Tom @313 You hit several nails on the head in one post. I was about to write something similar, but you saved me the trouble. Thank you!
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I hope for the Greeks repair costs won't come up for Troy or anything Alexander the Great stole or destroyed (who was a Macedonian, but that's Greek according to the Greeks, and that's what counts). Even without interest that would amount to a lot of money; with interest it'll be an insane amount. Anyone in the mood for some calculations?
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@ 260 Nik
“243: Menedemus, why do you ask if I am Greek? Is it any strange that a Greek finds not only pointless but actually negative a close collaboration with US? Do I need to mention Cyprus? Aegean? The fact that US will support every last real and imaginary enemy of Greece (please refer to details, I do not need to state who is currently the funding partner of all those ridiculous propagandas and why it is ONLY the anglosaxon media that is so negative against Greece).”
Nik, Greece, just like Cyprus, Serbia, Montenegro and to a certain extend Bulgaria were and still are in the scope of the Russian global interests. All of us, orthodox folks, we owe our independence more or less to the Russian bloodshed. No matter who rule our countries, our folks do not forget who the liberator was and who the oppressor was. Things do not change so easily. The memories are still alive. In Bulgaria there are more than 500 monuments commemorating the Russian-Turkish war of 1877-78 when at the cost of 200000 Russian lives justice was done and the holly cross dominated once again our orthodox land! And what happened next? Lord Disraeli, the British foreign secretary (at the Berlin congress) made his best to stop the Russian victorious march on the Balkans fearing that the British interests in the Middle East were endangered. As a result of what the Congress ruled, Bulgaria was again divided, Macedonia remained within the borders of the Ottoman Empire, South Bulgaria was subjected as a vassal state to the Sultan, and only a small portion of the country, situated to the north of the Balkan range remained free. We shall never forget the British “generous contribution” to our new history!
Unfortunately, the great powers did their best to divide us once again during the two world wars.
Now, being member states of the EU there is some chance to survive and to devise on our children a relatively good chance for a peaceful and comfortable life… Let’s not loose this good opportunity friend, no matter how painful it may appear to the crushing majority of our folks!
I take the chance to remind you a funny episode of the cold war. It was in the early spring of 1969 or in 1970 (I can not recollect the exact period). I was still a young midshipman of the navy which (under the terms of the Warsaw pact) was an integral part of the Soviet black sea fleet. A task force of two American destroyers entered the Black sea on a reconnaissance mission. Our Admiralty detached our escort vessel “Smeli” to intercept them just outside of our territorial waters, I mean by the Rezovska river estuary (i.e. several tens of sea miles to the north of the Bosphorous). It was a funny game. Our old craft (“Riga” class escort vessel) was not able to make more than 25-26 knots, while the Americans would easily reach more then 30 in 10 minutes’ run. Needless to say, we were on full alert, I mean guns and torpedo launchers charged, etc. You would ask me how we managed to escort them all the time wile being so slow. Well, here comes the funny part of the story. The Americans would stop from time to time thus permitting us to catch up with them!
After 18 hours of ridiculous chase, under minus 5 degrees frost, at rough seas, we reached the Odessa bay (Ceausescu, the Romanian president of that time did not want to take part in the resistance to the “American provocative mission” thus leaving us alone). The next day, I was still keeping my night watch when I notice through the morning fog the flagship of the Russian squadron, several cables just ahead of us. The Russians signalled: “Hvatit bratsi, mojno ouyti” (russ.”It’s enough brothers, you may go home”). The cold war would give birth here to such dangerous and ridiculous (at times) games, kind of cat & mouse, at least once a year.
Sofia, March 1st 2010 Generalissimo
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@jablko
'The Greek problem seems minute in comparison and I am sure the Greeks are proud enough to deal with their own, even if it means changing a few old habits.'
@Menedemus
'My bet is that the cuts in civil service and public expenditure costs are going to become draconian but it is the most sure-fired way to reduce government expenditure quickly.'
I have already said that this is going to happen (already announced taht it will happen) and then some kind of loan will follow if spreads continue to be high. It is absolutely certain that new measures are coming this week and they will be at least at the level of Ireland's. If more is needed next month will be taken. There is no other way, this is absolutely clear and nobody suggests otherwise. Even Pangalos said with his patronising style (always been like this), that there is a glass in front of us with a very unpleasant drink, it is all ours, we cannot avoid it, we cannot drink half of it, we will drink all of it and we will be alone as we drink it!
What more you want you lot! Anyway...
@Menedemus
But,I thought you said that there is no way out out and Greece will default whatever it does. On the demonstrations. For Greek standards (a mere 25000 at the streets of Athens) are null. There is no big fuss, people are numb and assimilating slowly what is happening but I do not think that we will have severe social unrest. Polls show otherwise. Of course people are not happy with severe cuts but the vast majority do not accuse others. Of course there will be some people in the streets (the usual suspects) of course there will be some demostrating but not much, of course we will see some unpleasant scenes. This land has seen far worse. I think most of you dramatise too much the situation. We will live with less. Certainly a part of population (probably the most talented) will leave as unemployment will soar. But we will overcome. We have never wanted to live at the expense of others.
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@ Europrisoner
Thank you very much for the tip re the Telegraph. Tory MEP Hannan, just the sort of target I love, someone that knows so much about Europe. I shall be asking him how much he knows about his Czech political friends with whom he/his party has joined forces in the European Parliament. If they let me register there I shall put it under his article. His constituency would do nicely as well. After all how can we expect Tories to like things European if they get mixed up with the wrong crowd?
Have you missed my question about Scotland?
Regards
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Europrisoner - frankly, it is inane to speak of a European "reich". Europe's political union is symbolic at the very most and the economic union is the only alternative to parts of Europe integrating themselves in single economies outside of Europe. In fact, some of this is already taking place, for instance, when France signs a treaty with northern African states to start a mediterranean single economy. Ultimately, it comes down to the question of whether or not it is useful for a country to be in the union and it turns out that quite a few nations have made a decision. No nation in Europe would be in it were it not useful for them.
For anyone to call the European Union a "prison", as your alias would suggest, this would require laws that would prohibit nations from leaving the union. This has happened in the past, when Norway left the union.
Now of course, the economic union is anything but perfect - as the current Euro crisis (and the very likely end of a the currency as a whole) indicates. The fact of the matter is, however, that neither Greece nor Germany were forced into the union. They both signed voluntarily because they both decided it would be good for them. Now things have started going wrong and people are beginning to point fingers, but whatever disadvantages Germany or Greece get from this, they will only have themselves to blame for it. Be all lay the bricks on the path that lies behind us.
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Very interesting comments.
Gavin Hewitt | 14:15 UK time, Friday, 26 February 2010
"Otmar Issing, a former German European Bank executive, said bluntly: "The crisis is made in Greece - it is a result of bad policy."
I agree to the above statement - that's why I think that Greece should be humble enough to sequester from Euro. Every action is equal to a reaction. They need to be responsible of their own actions (Greece may really have a corrupt government but the point is - the problem arose within their country - not even caused by any kind of natural catastrophe - so now the consequences are arising). What if Germany at this moment isn't capable of bailing them? What could be their other option? Which other country to blame? There's no instant solutions.
Greece also wouldn't be able to force Germany to bail them out if the Germans don't want to do so. Germany has its own people - should be their priority, especially now that the natural calamities are arising everywhere. Nobody knows when emergencies would arise. On the other hand, Greece consists of great people; they should be able to think of better ways to solve their economic problem, perhaps they should discipline and unite their people to overcome the crisis.
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The governments of France and Germany will guarantee loans made by their respective banks to Greece. They have no choice. The result will be good and bad vibes for financial markets. It will temporarily ease fears about the collapse of Greece but will create new fears about a precedent being set. Damn the moral hazard they got no choice.
The effort to ring-fence the Greek economy may require a lot of fence.
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Viewcode, your first case of Greek defaults just shows how much little you know for the area. Greece invading Turkey? It has not done this even when Turkey has repeatedly attacked and invaded and occupied Cyprus. It has not done it back in the 1970s (during the Cyprus occupation) with a superior to Turkish army (Turks had already the equipment but lacked training and organisation, then their airforce was so ridiculous that British and US pilots were used for the Turkish occupation while their navy was non existing - Greek navy could just go straight ahead to Konstatinople). And it will do it now when Turkey has a much better army with all that free equipment and training its equally failed economy receives from the US? Get a touch with reality.
Greece has not to do much to get in war with Turkey. Ironfranco above (he is Bulgarian and knows better) knows the Russian interests in the region. Greece has only to invite a Russian company to start drilling the Aegean and to get on with the gaz pipeline project. Then if US does not like it they may as well take their base in Crete (if they can afford!) and leave. They might try to do war via their good kid Turkey (and a war between Greece and Turkey can only start with Turkey attacking since Turkey is the one and only aggresor at place armed specifically for aggression - Greece for good or for bad is armed for defense only) - but then Russians will simply come down and to to Turkey what they have done in Georgia. Then you will have a Russian controlled Eastern Thrace (to be divided between Greece and Bulgaria in future) as well as the occupation of the whole western Minor Asian coast - while Turkish will be send to the east to deal with the revolted 20 millions of Kurds (where they will stand little chance unless US aid them to do full-scale genocide) as well as the attack of the small but extremely powerfull Armenian army aided by Russians that will try chunk off the Armenian historic lands that are 9 years now under Turkey's occupation.
See... things are not that dramatic for Greece, the military option you mention is not an one-way thingie. Russia with Ukraine blatantly back to it, with Georgia beaten, Chechenia largely "owned" (Kadirof, the son of the rebel,rules as a pro-Russian!) Kazakstan largely pro-Russian in geostrategic terms and wary of US, US is left only with Turkey and Ouzbekistan... the Baltics and Poland and perhaps Romania (not any big deal - Russia is more interested in Bulgaria) on the other side... not much of a help.
Greece's idea is that to avoid all that fuss, EU has better move itself and protect Greece's interests and if not at least its territorial integrity. It will cost nothing to the EU chicken-citizens, EU countries already have the weaponry there, time to use this on the table.
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@ vassilis
I am glad you are standing your ground. Has anybody, Germans in particular, suggested to you sofar to find a few more Otto Rehagels to get the best out of the talent that is undoubtedly there in your country? But do be careful of Bavarians, they have managed to create a much bigger mess with their banks in a few short years. Why does'nt anybody talk about them?
Regards
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@ viewcode
Nice try with the Americans coming in with the Dollar. May I remind you that the Greenback has been turning rather yellow in recent years, that being so, would'nt you need the approval of the Chinese for such an adventure as you suggest?
Regards
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the usual simplistic story i would expect from this blog...
a fantastic cover for the daily mirror...!
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Apart from being members of the EU, Germany and Greece have very little in common if not to say have nothing in common. There is a lot of difference between them - cultural, religious, economical etc. It is strange that the Germans became seriously concerned about the economic situation in Greece. There is no reason for them to worry about it more than about the situation in Estonia or Latvia, which historically and geographically are more closely linked with Germany and at present need its support as well.
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There is too much deep-seated nationalism and cultural divide for the EU to succeed. The Greek comments about Germany prove this, as they are based on something that happened in the near distant past. It is not the same for two European nations to get along as, say, Ohio and Iowa in the United States, and it never will be.
As a side comment, I can't think of one thing Greece exports except Feta cheese. Sounds like they are embarrassed and just bringing up the past embarrassment of another county to cover their you-know-what.
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It seems to me that a lot of people here are missing a very important point. There's a lot of debate about inter-European strife which sidesteps the role that foreign forces have played. I'm thinking primarily of Goldman Sachs. They cooked the Greek books. And now they are betting big on Greece going belly up! Yup, not content with destroying the huge financial institutions that precipitated this financial calamity they're actually looking to make cash out of the destruction of a nation. And with it numerous others. Frankly, I see such behaviour as an act of war! I think the executives of Goldman Sachs, and the other corporate vampires, are now legitimate targets. The class war is on, and God spare the fainthearted because this is a fight that must be fought now. The failure to take up this fight is an acceptance of the return to feudalism.
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@333
The Feta cheese comes from Bulgaria. We call it just white cheese.
Regards
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Mr. Josef Schlarmann and Mr. Frank Schaeffler who "suggested" Greeks to sell off some of Country's islands to cut their debt, should better consider to come and get them, as their Nazi ancestors did in WWII.
But to do that, it is not enough to be a Nazi. They have to have the guts too, which obviously they don't have. They do have enough impudence though.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I don't want to get into a 'race war'- who did what to whom etc, but I do want to clear up a point that hits a nerve every time I read it. 'Lazy' Greeks do not receive 14 salaries, at least not in the way it is implied...ie more money than other European workers. The annual salary is divided into 14 payments, AND NOT 12, with the employee receiving half a monthly payment at Easter, half in the summer and a whole payment at Christmas. If one were to compare the annual salary of an average Greek employee I think they would see that what they receive is extremely low in comparison to that in most member states.
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All of this nonsense regarding EU countries exceeding their budget deficits is power-relative and exists in that corrupt and evil parallel universe of bankers and politicians on the make.
I am just worried that Berlin might twist Athens' arm into recognising the illegal regime in Pristina, Kosovo as a precondition for a German bailout.
Five EU countries (Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Slovakia and Spain) have refused to recognise this 'independent' Kosovo as well as the vast majority of the United Nations members (two thirds).
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Of course the Greeks are to blame for the the current economic crisis in Greece but Germany has once again arrogantly crossed the line with calling for Greek expulsion from the EU
Not once but many times has Germany spread fire death and destruction in europe.They flattened many cities in greece,murdered many thousands of innocent civilians with the same arrogance that we see today in these anti Greek comments.The Germans were also the architechts of the Armenian and Greek Genocides in Turkey where together with the Turks they brutally murdered millions of Europeans .
Lets keep things in context when we ask which country has been a Good European citizen.
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Babis Gelesmes @ 336
If you care to read my comment under 236 you might think that the Germans you mentioned have stolen my idea.
Regards
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@ chris bastianakos
when has Germany called for the expulsion of Greece from the EU?
It is hard to think of anything more depraved and decadent than running your own country into the ground and then hoping to morally blackmail a succesful economy into bailing you out once again. The Greek have effectively lived on other people's money for nearly than 30 years and at the first sign of Germany being reluctant to hand out more freebies they start pointing fingers? How about a little bit less corruption and self-pity and a little more honesty and self-consciousness?
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It is no good blaming the Germans, the Greeks or the distant past. Look at what you can do for your community, with your elected bodies. If foreign elected bodies interfer with yours point the finger at them as well. Writing from Prague I am poiting the finger at Kalithea (Athens) whose elected representatives let themselves be used by a very, very corrupt mayor of Prague. They both, with the assistant of a Berlin mayor (Bushovsky) have been wasting hunderts of thousands (euros) partying in Prague, subsidised by the EU. In other words all of us payed for this. The subsidy was actually illegal since it did not conform with the rules laid down. The corrupt Prague mayor lives of propaganda, he can afford it, Prague being extremely rich. His last attempted PR coup was to rope in Madeleine Albright, someone informed her of the situation and she declined. Karel Gott however, who is well known in Germany as well, did ignore all advise and accepted to be "honored" by the corrupt mayor, appearing on a joint Christmas card for instant.
Corruption, as you can see is all around us at all levels. Question your politicians in Berlin and in Athens, ask them whom and what they support. You, their voters, I am sure never intended them to join up with someone known to be corrupt and in the process waste your money. Ask them to publically apologize to their citizens as well as to the Prague citizens for their misguided actions and letting themselves be used for propaganda purposes.
If you know any journalists I would be very happy to provide them with material, old and new.
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Dear Chris Bastianakos, I hope you do not expect that anybody will accept your rather extraordinary view of European history. I wonder if it is taught in Greece in this way or if it is just a product of your own intellectual effort. Nazi Germany surely caused great disaster to many, including Germans themselves, but still I cannot see any connection between WW2 and the permanent economic weakness of Greece. Nowadays Greeks are boasting about their ancient heritage (btw. nice PR strategy, though it is not long ago when Greek national leaders, i.e. orthodox clergy, did not want to hear anything about those ancient pagans and preferred to stay within Ottoman Turkey rather than create independent state influenced by liberal and godless Latins (West Europeans)) but what can be seen in present Greece is a heritage of the Ottoman Empire: massive corruption, tax evasion, nepotism.
As for Greek and Armenian genocide, neither of them has anything in common with Germany. It was unrealistic and naive plan of great Greece with Constantinople as the capital which in the end causes defeat of Greece and expulsion of Greeks from Anatolia.
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loojeanmacloo @ 339
This discussion is not about Kosovo. You must be really worried about it for you push this topic everywhere. Are you equally worried about separation of Voivodina from Hungary?
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U14312152@322:
In fact you have revealed that there still exist vast differences between Europeans with cultural and religious roots in Roman Catholicism or Protestantism and Europeans with cultural and religious roots in Byzatine Empire and Orthodoxy. We can see different approach of the latter to Russia, Kosovo and many other important issues. Certainly it will cause troubles in the future and make co-existence within EU more difficult, perhaps even impossible. The orthodox members of EU should realise that they are a minority and that the EU originated among countries of western culture and is (or should be) firmly based upon western cultural heritage(though it is not expressed in any official document). Greece and Bulgaria can also hardly expect that other European countries will share their animosity against Turkey and their feelings towards Russia.
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TominExeter @313
"Germans should no more feel responsible for the crimes of Hitler, than should Russians for the excesses of Stalin."
Germans - let them, not our business. While they are in Germany.
But here at home I wouldn't denounce a bit as "non-existent because it's 57 yrs (and 1 day) since Stalin dead". For many here still remember what's March 5th, and I noticed it in local media yesterday.
Dragons have a tendency to come back. Even that he was a Georgian he ruled from Moscow. These people allowed him, we did, and in full earnesty I don't see much difference in the mould between elder Russian populations and new, same people. How is it that my grandparents are not included into "we". Surely - "we".
You can't be "we, Russians" with a single opt-out, "we" are we but not when it concerns Stalin". I think it is contradictory to logic and would be a self-fooling stand.
Overall, I think it is too early to call the alarm off. The awareness, as minimum. One should not go forward with leaps and holes jumping over, but be consequitive.
And then even a notion of Stalin can be used these days in some respects, for example our rulers normally ugh when reminded that Stalin didn't keep bank accounts abroad and didn't pull the blanket onto himself or his private family. Was content with a couple of pairs of boots, or whatever, a uniform, no exuberancies in gobbling national wealth or assigning the chunks of it, in alottments, to his favourites.
Anyway wait and see, a huge scandal ahead, can imagine what BBC will make of it :o))))))))))))))))))))))), for the 65th anniversary of the V-day in 2 months' Moscow city mayor gave way to some army veterans association and agreed to have 10 posters of Stalin to be pt up where that war veterans' club usually get together from all ends of USSR on the 9th of May.
The other veterans' org immediately promised to bombard those posters with rotten eggs and tomatoes and are already preparing the stocks :o)
Folks here are quickly taking sides, from "let them, be understanding" to "just you dare" and one can easily expect a mini WW by those posters in 2 months.
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Moscow city mayor is blamed by all without exception, for causing havoc and bringing up controversies, and among whom - among pensioners who hardly crawl at all in their age, to say nothing of their fighting abilities :o))))
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Teutobrodensis @346
"The orthodox members of EU should realise that they are a minority and that the EU originated among countries of western culture and is (or should be) firmly based upon western cultural heritage(though it is not expressed in any official document). Greece and Bulgaria can also hardly expect that other European countries will share their animosity against Turkey and their feelings towards Russia."
Right. Enchanting statements, in their openness.
The countries based upon the, how is it, "Roman Catholicism and Protestantism" have superior set of values, by definition, to the ones "originating from Byzantine empire and Orthodoxy" and plan to exercise the might of the majority within the EU in future.
I think even more straightforward definition would be "because we have more money and are bigger in q-ty, it is either our way or high way, in relation to "important issues".
Well, the majority rule seems like simple democracy application, but how are "values" suddenly quantifiable? I am not so sure.
Anyway, "feelings to Russia" are not Greece fault or Bulgarian fault, or Serbs' fault or Cyprus fault or whoever suddenly starts to cherish those "feelings" all of a sudden :o))) as well.
By the way, "pure Western culture" holders might also do well by starting to share those "feelings" at some point better late than never.
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I have not written what you are presenting in your response. I did not assessed qualities, I did not even compare anyone. I only highlighted differences and pointed out possible problems which could originate from them. Orthodox culture is certainly very respectable and inspiring but I belive that such an artificial entity (EU) can function without much pains only if it is based on genuine affinity (at least cultural). I am not sure that everybody realises this...Perceiving Europe in terms of physical geography is rather childish, Europe is a cultural phenomenon. Beyond any doubt Britain is in all respects closer to New Zealand than to Greece or Portugal, similarly Bulgaria is closer to Russia than to Danmark.
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FAO - Teutobrodensis @ 345 YOU WROTE - 'This discussion is not about Kosovo. You must be really worried about it for you push this topic everywhere. Are you equally worried about separation of Voivodina from Hungary?'
Firstly, Vojvodina is part of Serbia, not Hungary.
Secondly, I didn't say this discussion is about Kosovo. It's about 'Greece, the euro and the Nazis'(sic)
I merely stated (@339)that "I am just worried that Berlin might twist Athens' arm into recognising the illegal regime in Pristina, Kosovo as a precondition for a German bailout.
Five EU countries (Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Slovakia and Spain) have refused to recognise this 'independent' Kosovo as well as the vast majority of the United Nations members (two thirds).)"
As an Irishman who has lived in Germany for many years I am well aware of the anti-Serb psychosis that exists there. Germany no longer can seek 'lebensraum' to its East or West, so it has sought access to the South with the help of its WW2 mates (Slovenians,Croats,Bosnian muslims and Albanians). However, history repeats itself here as the Serbs once again are the stumbling block to this latest German expansionary endeavour.
For this reason, I am fearful of what Berlin might get up to in its dealings with Athens.
So, you see, Kosovo has a lot to do with 'Greece, the euro and the Nazis'(sic)
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I do not understand what gives you the idea that Germany is going to twist anyone's arms into recognising Kosovo. Yugoslavia and Montenegro (later Serbia) only had themselves to blame for the loss of Kosovo. Germany has no stake in that region. The 1999 aggression against Yugoslavia was American and British led, albeit Germany went along with it and provided reconnaissance drones. Greece's current problems are entirely self-inflicted the same way that the Serbian territorial loss was self-inflicted. In neither of the cases was there any arm-twisting going on.
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I think there is some mass confusion here,and if the citizens of Europe cannot see themselves as Europeans first and citizens of their country second,then you might as well hang it up.My wife is Serbian and i take offence at blaming the Serbs entirely for the war.Remember,it began with the 300,000 Serbs expelled from Croatia,the German recognition of Croatia as independent,that eventually allowed someone like Milosevic to come to power.Perhaps,Europe can learn a lesson before further integrating to a Federal Europe.I also think the Greeks are correct in exposing the Germans and the EU for the hypocrites they are.Remember,but for the USA,Britain and Greece....they were the only Allies in WW2,the Russian Army would have stuck their boot down the German throat,so,Germany be grateful for the mercy shown to you by the Allies,including Greece.I think war crimes are a seperate issue,but,an issue.I think perhaps,German people instead of coming to the Greek Isles,and having fun,perhaps should visit Jasenovac in Eastern Croatia,where 800,000 Serbs,Greeks and Gypsy's were gassed,maybe then you can understand the Greek and Serb anger and perhaps you all might overcome your guilt.I do know Germany does not want to discuss reperations,then they would have to also answer for the 36million Orthodox Christians they butchered,the generation they detroyed and left wandering in history.God Bless America.
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Don't mention the war?! All else equal, why are the Germans only paying reparations to holocaust survivors and to Israel (quite justifiably so), and not the Greeks or the Russians for that matter? More than 20 million!!! Russians died in that horrible war, and if Russia had to ask for reparations to be paid on equal terms as with Isral, then Germany will have to go bankrupt and sell eastern Germany to the highest bidder in order to satisfy that debt!
Also, since when is Germany the model of fiscal responsibility and frugality? If it was not for the USA and the Marshall Plan, they might have been all under the Red Army's boot.
So, Germany and Germans, you did very evil things to all of us in Europe. There's no question about that; I think the best policy for you is to keep quiet and don't try to extend your imperial tentacles, albeit in an economic form, this time around!
Greece will survive and will thrive, as for Germany, I am not so sure.
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Due to its relatively small size and geopolitical location, Greece has been given the special blessing of living under a permanent Turkish military threat manifested with daily violations of Greek airspace by fighter jets and by disputes over Greek sovereignty rights on certain islands and areas in the Aegean sea. Consequently, Greece is forced to spend huge amounts on defence budgets reaching 4.2% of GDP, the highest among the EU countries (Gemany 1.5, UK 1.2) or even USA (4.03) and yet much less than its potential intruder, Turkey (5.3) a country seven times bigger than Greece.
(source CIA factbook figures as of 2005-2006)
In this volatile game of geopolitics, the bosses of the Euro”family” have always been playing the major role in manipulating the stability in the area and creating market conditions for their influential military industries to flourish. German defence corporations in particular have been major contractors with the Greek (and Turkish) army for more than two decades.
Some of the German businesses in Greece during the recent years include, among many others, military ships and submarines, tanks and missiles as well as the notorious C4i surveillance system destined for the Olympic Games security, a system that never existed in reality; and last but not least, OTE, the Greek national organization of telecommunications modernized by German companies funded with Greek funds only to be bought (30% stake) soon after by another German company through obscure procedures.
One of countless scandals in Greece involves millions of euros smuggled under the table by Siemens and siphoned to the leading Greek political parties of New Democracy and PASOK as “commissions” or direct bribes for wining certain contracts worth billions. The key person (a Siemens top executive of Greek origin and German citizenship) involved in the plot, escaped arrest and trial in Greece and currently shelters in Germany where he is protected by German law.
All these sum up to billions of euros which could have been more than enough to balance the Greek budget deficit and even drastically alleviate the external debt. One thing is for sure, those billions were added to the profits of German industrialists, bankers and intermediaries, Greek corrupted politicians and civil servants. They also created a mega-debt per capita and a socioeconomic turmoil for the man in the street.
But the man in the street has also his own share of responsibility for the crisis through the appointments made with political or nepotist criteria in the public sector. Thousands of low or zero productivity posts were awarded to certain people with provocatively high wages. The perfect storm was complete with wide spread systematic tax evasion.
No doubt Greece is a deeply corrupted country that deserves its crisis. However, it takes two to tango, in this case the poor and the rich, the bribed and the briber. And another thing is for sure, the word “family” is an oxymoron for EU as it’s all about the market and it’s dominance by the strongest, no matter if corrupt as well.
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FAO:@ 353, Hellenic1,
You are a good person, and let nobody ever say otherwise.
You come from SOUTHERN Europe, from a good place called Greece.
I come from WESTERN Europe, from a place called Ireland. My friend, Torc, comes from Norway in NORTHERN Europe and my good friend, Vladimir comes from the western side of the URAL mountains, {EASTERN )?which 'geographically' divides one part of Russia from the other (not Europe), Russia.
Good. So where are now?
Why are the Irish not fighting the Greeks?
- because they never invaded us.
- we love them and it's a pity that they are too far away - Jesus , look at our neighbours! - I refer to that island off our eastern coast;
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Twice heard about "could have been under Russia boot".
Yes, but in a buffer state format, between "East" and "West", it was desired they are something in between, as I understood, if a "Western state" - then friendly to Russia more or less, if an "Eastern" state - well no need for that, plenty other, and then they won't be accepted by Britian and the USA as a negotiator.
Remember in 1945 Stalin had no idea yet of the Cold war to follow, none whatsoever. was thinking in old, geo-political layouts. He knew we are contradictory, of course, but had no expectations of the level of those contradictions to develop post-war.
By simply looking at the dear allies :o)))), throughout 1944-1945 meetings and all, he desired for a third power in Europe, for a balance and things - big - united - mind it, Germany.
By his plans I don't know in what political campus Germany was to end up, rather, I have my suspicions :o))) in "what" :o))))but united - 100%. The USA and Britain though turned down Stalin's suggestions to run general elections in Germany ASAP in the summer of 1945 and have them elect a government for themselves. I can fish it out who said "and you aren't afraid that Germans, in this case, will vote into power a pro-Western government?" To which Stalin said "I shall take the risk."
He knew that socialistic ideas were in the air in Germany post war and reasonably counted that if Germans run a vote - they will vote into power figures not diametrically opposed to the USSR as minimum. And we'll have an excellent big substantial buffer state. And a third power in Europe. The USA, and Britain concluded "aaah , he wants it all" :o))))) - and did not take the risk, in spite of several USSR suggestions to organise them general elections and supervise their mass participation and transparencey , validity, whatever - by common commissions of all sides, and immediately after the results are declared take out all foreign troops out of Germany - as Red Army - as Western from other "sectors" likewise.
Yes, Germany could have ended "all ours". But not split.
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And I think someone at that point had less brains than Stalin, because that was a one-off opp. to have Red Army out of Germany, and, given the level of the further economic difference between "East" and "West", even in the worst scenario - Germans vote pro-socialistic government in - they would have changed their ideas rather quickly :o))), seeing the difference in life standards. Without foreign armies on the ground Germany could really do what it pleases and change styles as often as they wish.
But then of course the Allies also didn't know yet how exactly Western Europe will be blossoming post war, no Marshall plans introduced yet either, and I guess simply also missed the forecast of "standards of life" comparison. Who knew what in spring 1945?
I must admit I don't see still the angle of Stalin's confidence in Germany, that they won't be dangerous again for decades to come, I mean, to Russia. Somehow he gambled they won't.
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And the idea that Greece influenced anything re the German future in spring 1945 :o)))))))
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Teutobrodensis # 350, I took note of what you said.
Still, keep in mind, within Byzantine and Orthodox camp nations are very different. I see not only Greek and Serbs as different but also Cyprus Greeks and mainland Greeks, to say nothing of Bulgarians. It's a very wide brush to unite this Byzantine camp :o))))) together as one likewise it would be for Russians if were were to toss all protestants together :o)))) etc.
I am not saying you said this :o), I am just adding new angles to the discussion for possible consideration. Lots of time passed since Byzantine times :o)))) all developed within own partitions, etc.
And even back then, I mean Byzantium times. Were never one and the same thing, I mean Russia Greece Bulgaria etc.
Russian relations with the Byzantium empire started LOL by our knyaz Oleg trying to grabatise Konstantinopol :o)))) he was maniacy travelling back and forward home-Konstantinopol, every time knocking his shield on the Konstantinopol gates, but you couldn't leave them alone even for half a year, they immediately up-rised, so on return home to Russia poor knyaz had to turn round on his heels and expedition to Konstantinopol again. Like a shuttling bear. And then the idea passed over somehow to the next knyaz, Igor, who also did the same.
Bulgaria, by the way, at that time played for Byzantium against Russia.
:o))))) So I don't see much congruency even originally :o))))
I would say between themselves - the "Byzantium camp" can very well quarrel. But when it comes to foreign offencers won't speak for all but Russia remembers who are the Byzantians :o)))) (locked horns fighting with it, for it, let's say, had stakes in the area) who are - the aliens!
By aliens I mean those unfortunate folks with who we can't sit down and remember good old 1000 year ago times :o))))of fighting each other :o)))
Nothing to remember! so to say. :o))))
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Referred to the moderators. :o(
When speaking about Byzantium times.
?
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> Remember,it began with the 300,000 Serbs expelled from Croatia,the
> German recognition of Croatia as independent,that eventually allowed
> someone like Milosevic to come to power.
I hear this type of argument quite a lot, especially from people who voted people into power who it later turned out not be such a good idea to vote for them. It's what I call "turning self-pity into an art form".
Croatia decided to withdraw from Yugoslavia, because many politicians in Croatia were getting concerned about moves towards Yugoslavian legislation effectively giving Serbs preferential treatment in the federal republic and taking rights away from traditionally autonomous regions like Kosovo and Vojvodina. They feared the same might eventually happen to Croatia. After Croatia declared its independence, Serbs living in Croatia then tried to secede from Croatia, which is illegal. Under international law, it is impermissible to acquire territory by war and it is impermissible to use population transfers with the long-term goal of gaining territory from another country. Of course, the manner in which some Serbs where expelled is unacceptable no matter which way one looks at it, but let's keep an eye on cause and effect here, too. The bloodshed would not have happened if the Serb-dominated Yugoslavian leadership had observed the rules inscribed in international law and respected the rights of non-Serbs living in Yugoslavia. Germany and the other western nations were well within their rights to recognise the souverignty of Croatia, they did not break any international law in doing so.
@ PPetrov - there are two types of politics that one can play here - the type of "what if" politics ("if Germany was made to pay for everything it has done, it would have to cede Eastern Germany to Poland" or "if Russia was made to pay for everything it has ever done, it would have to cede Siberia to Mongolia and Kasachstan to Afghanistan") or you can base your politics around the facts on the ground and what is feasible at this point.
Germany's dealings with other nations in Europe do not have anything to do with "extending" tentacles or any other nonsense. Germany has not done anything to get Greece into crisis. Greece and the Greek people only have themselves to thank for and congratulate themselves on it. Greece wants yet more freebies from "its European partners" (i.e. Germany - by the way, shouldn't the "partners" in a "partnership" at least make an effort to contribute in more or less equal measures? At least every once in a while?) and Germany is hesitant. That is Germany's only crime in this matter - it is being hesitant, because it fears that any money sent to Greece is money thrown down a cesspool of corruption and nepotism.
I am very concerned about the way Germany's Nazi past is mixed into this topic of Greece's self-inflicted crisis, as if Germany had some sort of a moral obligation to pay for entire nations of freeloaders who feel they have got an inherent right to live beyond their means, because Germany occupied their country 65 years ago. By the same token, I am concerned about the way mythology is used in this debate - in particular hellenic mythology. There have been Greek politicians claiming that the Greek were already a great civilisation when the Germans were still living on trees "eating bananas" (apparently, the spokesperson of a Greek consumer association actually said that).
First of all, let me tell you that even if the people who call themselves Greek today had any connection to the ancient Greece of Aristotle and Homer, this would be extraordinarily weak as an argument in favour of blaming Germany for Greece's crisis or making the case for bailing Greece out. It is never a good idea to pride oneself on the actions of their ancestors if one has nothing to show for oneself, but pride in ancestors who have been dead for two thousand years or more is just straight-up ridiculous and pathetic.
Second, it is highly debatable whether or not the people who call themselves "Greek" today can actually justifiably consider themselves descendants and inheritors of the ancient Greek civilisation. That civilisation was lost many centuries ago. Greek culture today owes much more to the Ottoman rule than to anything else. Living a squalid life amid the ruins of a long-lost civilisation does not mean you ARE that civilisation. The "hellenic" Greek civilisation is gone and won't come back. It is far more probable that the Greek today are people of Turkish, Arab, Albanian and Romanian origin, who have adopted a large number of words from the ancient Greek vocabulary and have taken elements of ancient Greek gramar into their language. It goes without saying that there is nothing wrong with Turks, Arabs, Albanians or Romanians and there is certainly nothing wrong with modern Greeks, but I am deeply troubled by the way mythology is used to paint the picture of an old "hellenic" civilisation which has lived through the centuries and is now threatened by unreasonable Germans who, in their Nazi narrow-mindedness do not understand why they should pay through their noses to finance other people's excessive lifestyles.
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What do the Germans get up to?
Someone in this thread actually put this question. How appropiate this question is shows an item picked up from German TV on Sunday.
Guido Westerwelle the German Foreign Secretary has been to Greece recently. Nothing special about that one would think, only he tried to flogg Eurofighters to the Greeks for over 3 billion Euros. Now, can anybody work that one out?
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Chris Camp,
"owes to the Ottoman rule", are they the same people/highly questionable, and anyway why one choses to be proud of some people who died 2 thousand years ago. etc.
Pity my "Byzantium matters" post was referred.
I first wrote to Teutobrondensis @350, acknowledg-ing what he said. And then explained a bit how it was a thousand years ago, why Greek and Bulgarians and Serbs and Russians are different people now - because they were different people even a thousand years ago - before, and during the Bysantium times, so shouldn't be widely tossed together under one umbrella "Byzantium-Orthodox related".
Back then pagan Russia fought with Bysantium, that was our first "relations" :o)))) with it. Expedition after an expedition, to grabatise Konstantinople. Prince Oleg got exhausted knocking his shield onto the Konstantinopol gates, and once he barely returned home - they uprised, and he had to turn on his heels, and go to Konstantinopol again. And then the next prince, Igor, somehow inherited the obsession, and shuttled as well.
Bulgarian Empire supported Byzantium, fought against Russia. Which was very inconvenient, because you can't get from Kiev to Konstantinopol, always Bulgaria in one format or another on the way :o))))
etc.
There has never been a consensus initially, and there was no "Bysantium camp".
The "camp" got formed much later, not in 800-900 years, but in 1300 something, when a Russian tsar married a niece of the last Konstantinopol emperor, and that niece, offended by the loss of the great and wondeful Bysantium, instilled into her Russian husband "ideas" like let's have Bysantium re-born anew, as good as new, in the new location. There was a national campaign :o))) announced, with a slogan - "Moscow - is the Third Rome, and the Fourth one will never be".
By that time old offences were kind of healed and forgotten :o))) and the "new Bysantium" camp was vaguely formed. Very vaguely, because the thing that united it was mostly religion - picked up from Bysantium, by those who fought for it, against it, :o))), then for it - nevermind, let's say used to have a stake in the old business one way or another.
Now, you say the modern Greeks are not the same ones that 2,000 years ago - can't say for 2,000 - but for 1,000 - I guarantee you - as good as new. That's why the religion is called - on your side only, mind it - "Orthodox" ourselves we call it "right slav" or "right /correct glory" -the same. interpret it as "right wing slavs" :o)))) or "those who think they are the only ones who are right " :o)))) - any way. You call it Orthodox only because even for other churches - they see that not much has changed in the 1000 years about it. When on a church holiday a patriarch is wearing a green gown - that's because Konstantinopol one used to wear fresh green. And what he says - was said a 1,000 years ago. (we don't understand a thing :o)))) of it, because the sermons are done in a 1,000 year old language). Honest. Well, 20% you get.
As to looking 2,000 years back, I don't know, but who has inherited the hellenic culture if not the modern Greeks - oh who else? Whatever way they kept it - it is definitely the best demonstrated practice around for miles. I didn't notice anyone else aspiring to keeping it, during the past 2 thousand etc. , and by all rights reserved it is rightfully theirs, modern Greeks. Culture and genes are not the same. Even if they were diluted by 90% by friendly aliens type Turks :o))) - they chose to keep the culture - and that's what matters.
Pity Mavrelius is missing somewhere he'd explain how American culture keeps them a nation not genetic variations.
Well, we've got a brand new Frenchman as a Russian Orthodox priest; once he chose to change affiliation and embrace another layout and view of the world - who cares what are the genes. Even his huge Siberian parish got used to his French and now understands him :o)))) and replies to his sermons in French. real. Though, in the beg., they had strong suspicions about the new appointee, and complained high and low to all quarters.
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I should like to thank bilwander for his posting at 355 where he shares his in depth knowledge with all of us.
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I think it is hard for the poorer countries, as compared to the richer ones, to continuously live by the same standards. How can they? I don't know if there is an average "minimum wage" in the EU or other laws, making a country spend more than it usually would, by itself. Or binding it to buy expensive things, from other EU constituencies?
I am thinking for example of Russia. How would we be able to comply with certain EU standards, not having money to finance them? When you don't have much money you normally buy cheaper things and can Greece buy cheaper things? Or - make , "cheaper things", to consume, for itself?
If they have to comply with the EU standards some things simply won't turn out "cheap" by definition, but a certain level of quality may be is demanded ?
Suppose Russia joins EU and can't eat what it makes cheap as it contradicts EU standards or something, small green apples, :o))) for example. One will get bankrupt rather quick when a poor man is expected to shop in the high street.
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To webAlice @ 366
Joining the EU normally means a lenghty process in which a country works towards complaince with a whole range of standards. A timetable is agreed for this in advance. The Czech Republic has not been able to keep to this timetable but are getting there slowly. I belief even today the Prime Minister announced the completion of some unfinished part.
When a large and in many ways backward Spain joined there had been a process agreed that should take ten years. Spain however completed chapter after chapter ahead of time.
I suggest that you watch Croatia's path to the EU, the political problems with their neighbour Slovenia having been settled, so it seems. An indication also that the incentives to settle disputes of old are so much greater there being a relatively strong EU with a clear vision.
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351. At 9:48pm on 06 Mar 2010, loojeanmacloo wrote:
Firstly, Vojvodina is part of Serbia, not Hungary.
Secondly, I didn't say this discussion is about Kosovo. It's about 'Greece, the euro and the Nazis'(sic)
Dear loojeanmacloo,
what is now Voivodina used to be for more than 1000 years integral part of the Hungarian kingdom and became part of the Kingdom of Serbs,Croats and Slovenes (later Yugoslavia)under the Trianon treaty in 1920. My question was, if this separation made in favour of Serbia causes you the same mental troubles as separation of Kosovo. It was test of your impartiality. Next time I will try to be clearer and less historical.
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At 1:39pm on 08 Mar 2010, Chris Camp wrote..... wrote whatever....
Re:362
Chris Camp you really ignored the mes355 where it was expertly explained the "what" and the "why" (or perhaps you simply cannot understand all that) but then.... you opened 5-6 irrelevant subjects together about the Balkans and especially Greece in front of Greek, Bulgarian and Russian people that know 10 times more than you – you know you are bound to lose the argument but still wanted to say the things you say out of bitterness.
1st let me tell you who is remembering old history, it is not us Greeks but it is - as always some guys like you. We know we are Greeks, we do not expected totally ignorant people like you to come and tell us about history. We happen to know also all of your history, which is quite an easy task given that it is comparatevly a paragraph in a small chapter of our own.
Too late, you opened the question with a vengeance! (hehe!) so take the answer too (just treat it as a friendly given info – I am not any mad at your or something, but you just could not remain quite… so now you have to sit down and take it all):
You said:
First of all, let me tell you that even if the people who call themselves Greek today had any connection to the ancient Greece of Aristotle and Homer…. but pride in ancestors who have been dead for two thousand years or more is just straight-up ridiculous and pathetic.
I say:
Dear Chris. We are not an isolated island that changed 4 times language after 4 invasions of 1 semi-civilised and other 3 random barbarians. Bring on us 100 invasions, we will remain Greek. This isn’t a thing to be proud? I am proud of my illiterate early 19th ancestors after all those hardships being still able to have some understanding using their basic dialects on the texts of Homer nearly 3000 years back when you are not capable of understanding what your ancestors were talking merely 600-700 hundred years ago. Isn’t it a thing to be proud when you read in Linear B words you use everyday like the wine and the olive tree? Isn’t a thing to be proud when you know that the second most rich language in the world is Latin and it is nearly 10 times poorer than Greek? Why shouldn’t be proud? To make you feel better?
You said:
Second, it is highly debatable whether or not the people who call themselves "Greek" today can actually justifiably consider themselves descendants…… more probable that the Greek today are people of Turkish, Arab, Albanian and Romanian origin, who have adopted a large number of words from the ancient Greek vocabulary and have taken elements of ancient Greek gramar into their language.
I say:
Well you have shown how much you know about the story of the most well known nation and by far best monitored nation in the world – so I can imagine how much you can convince us on the rest of things you say.
So Greeks are Turkish? But Turkish are Turkomongolic people like the ones you find in Turkmenistan and Kyrgistan – slashed eyes, no body hair, straight hair etc. – according to you this is how modern Greeks look like. Perhaps Greeks intermingled with Arabs? When did Arabs come in Greece? Their brief stay at Crete (where they controlled 1-2 ports for some 80-100 years before disappearing?). Where else did Arabs come in Greece? Well Greeks intermingled with Middle Eastern (not Arabs cos they were still in Saoudi Arabia) and that is why is is only certain coastal Syrians, Palestinians and Egyptians that look like Greeks and not the opposite! You move 50km inside and the average Arab has simply nothing to do with Greeks. So Greeks are also Albanians? That is why my Indian mate who came from India in Greece could spot Albanians from 10km distance? I see what you talk about. Even the most ignorant cannot but notice that there is not only a big but a surprisingly huge difference of Albanians and Greeks despite their relative geographical proximity. The only point of contact between Greeks and Albanians are orthodox Albanians (most of them remnants of older Greek populations that lost their ancient dialects – and these are a minority of Albanians with relatively Mediterranean looks that are absolutely absent from the average muslim and catholic Albanian - a thing that is so often mentioned among Albanians when they are alone of course. So Greeks are Romanian too? I am the typical Greek, have been to Romania and everybody came to me speaking in English, that much I resemble to a Romanian. Well if you are ignorant of how do people look in Balkans then why don’t you visit the respective countries to see the similarities – oh forgot… you do do not like anyway any of these countries so you do not care. Well you care to throw some whatever remarks…
You really are ignorant of the populations and cultures of the area, you are double more ignorant of the Greek language – since you cannot speak it how on earth you can have the slightest idea of what it is? Modern Greek is a language of around 5 to 8 times richer than modern English (despite the latter having copied Greek and Latin extensively to fill up the gaps)… perhaps according to you it became rich by integrating Turkish, Arabic and Albanian… whatever… Well it is not. The language that influenced most the Greek language has been the Latin and it does not account for more than 2% of words (most notable influence the word endings like "-arios" and "poulos" but then the 2nd happens simly to be a greek word wow... huge alteration!There is absulutely nothing like "modern" and "ancient" Greek (when ignorant people like you mean ancient mean the specific dialect of Attic philosophers of the 5th century which was not even the everyday spoken style of the language in the very city of Athens). Greek language in its various dialects had had a long evolution long before Plato and long after. Modern Greek actually had admirably changed little since those times given the time interval we talk and in fact there was more change between 1000 B.C. and 500 B.C. than 500 B.C. and 2000 A.D. for the simple reason that the maintenance of very same alphabet and the largest ever and most complete in all time periods recorded collection of texts in human history meant that the language evolved relatively more slowly. It goes without saying that a modern Greek even if he does 2-3 classes in primary school can read the bible (100 A.D.) and understand it – in fact St. John can be read pretty much normally while he can read even the Politeia of Plato and understand what it talks about including details while catching quite a lot from the Homers’ dialect (one that was taught as “ancient Greek” even in times of Socrates and Plato…). I wonder if you can do the same for 14th century English… - you might do understand something with lots of help from French and Latin of course.
You said:
That is Germany's only crime in this matter - it is being hesitant, because it fears that any money sent to Greece is money thrown down a cesspool of corruption and nepotism….
….I am very concerned about the way Germany's Nazi past is mixed into this topic of Greece's self-inflicted crisis, as if Germany had some sort of a moral obligation to pay for entire nations of freeloaders who feel they have got an inherent right to live beyond their means, because Germany occupied their country 65 years ago. By the same token, I am concerned about the way mythology is used in this debate - in particular hellenic mythology. There have been Greek politicians claiming that the Greek were already a great civilisation when the Germans were still living on trees "eating bananas" (apparently, the spokesperson of a Greek consumer association actually said that).
I say:
You talk about corruption? I refer you back to mes355... I really did not know Britain, Germany or France had less corruption. The difference is that in the last 3 countries ony the big ones are permitted to be corrupted and get away with it... eh... in Greece we are democratic and we permit a bit the smaller ones. You also talk about nepotism when you come from a country where for the last 700 years there was absolutely no social mobility with the poor remaining poor and the rich getting richer. Imagine that poor and rich coming from the same area have even different accents in your country which is quite shocking! Even Tony Blair’s self-sold as “peoples’ kid” coming from the north, was an aristocrat by ancestry, what can I say more? Show me 1 European country where nepotisms did not continue. Where? France? Perhaps Germany? I remember the famous “egalisation” of 100 marks in 1946, Germans friends here can tell us if any rich guy became working class in 1947, or if any worker became milionaire. Well in Greece things are much more democratic in that way. In comparison to northern countries and for whatever detailed reasons there has been much more social mobility and that is why we had a quite healthy middle class. It is bound that you do not like societies like that, not our fault.
You say Greece’s crisis is self-inflicted. Really? WWII self-inflicted? Cyprus self-inflicted? That your country refuses to respect the international law and supports Turkey in not recognising our sovereignty is self-inflicted by Greeks? That we are constantly threatened by war is self-inflicted by Greeks? That when we try to do a strategic agreement to increase the commercial movement through our country and yours and other European countries spill poison and attack behind the scenes is self-inflicted by us Greeks? Are you serious? Or do you think that all these things are the best conditions for a little country to develop? Perhaps invasions and ethnic cleansing, soverignty not recognised and refusal of strategic agreements by bigger countries are ideal conditions for serious international investors to come and invest in the country? Are you serious?
And don't you repeat the chewed escpapist justification that we say all that to justify us, we justify none here. We are always responsible that is what we say. But we just point out the root causes and these are not only found in the country but also - if not mainly - outside. Why don’t you leave us alone (i.e. chose the country we buy arms, chose the country we buy our energy, chose the country we want to do business) and let us see what happenes? Why don’t you remain calm and quiet and not shout and protest when we make deals with the Russians on the pipeline and with Chinese on the leasing of ports and let us see what happens.
Are you ready to do so? Well judging from last years British, and German and French reactions you are not ready to do so. And that is why it is mostly you (British and Germans and French) that you are willing to pay so that we don't do "anything else wrong" (like go buy some S300 for example...). I am sure you have no idea what is that, just google it...
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thank you, Apple :o), that's all helpful, of course.
Well we don't seem to have "disputes" around, except for Sebastopol/Crimea, but to settle that there is enough we and Ukraine, why to tie in others.
I still think it's safer to keep own company.
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2010, WebAliceinwonderland wrote: As to looking 2,000 years back, I don't know, but who has inherited the hellenic culture if not the modern Greeks - oh who else?
The culture of old Greeks was partly accepted and transformed by Romans. At least the most important features of their culture - those features which were admired by West European panhellenists(and absloutely ignored or opposed by Greeks themselves) after centuries: democracy and racionalism. Through ancient Romans some parts of old Greek culture were transferred to Western Europe and later became part of western (Latin) culture (of course no contemporaries were aware of it). In fact neither West Europeans nor Greeks knew much about ancient Greek culture before 1800.As for cultural and ethnical discontinuity betwean old Greeks and modern Greeks I must absolutely agree with Chris Camp. His description corresponds to mainstream historical views. Modern Greeks are very probably mixture of old Greeks, Goths, Vlachs (Roman speaking nomads of the Balkans),Turks, Albanians and Slavs. (Only two isolated Greek speaking enclaves remained after big Slav migration in the 7. century: Constantinople and Thessaloniki)and their culture is determined mostly by Byzantine and Ottoman periods.
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Interesting, this discussion about Germany and the break-up of Yugoslavia. It just played out at the time the Maastricht treaty was concluded. Germany there got the OK to recognize Slovenia and Croatia, and everybody thought it was because they wanted to throw their new weight around in foreign policy. The Krajina Serbs tried to seceed, and this brought the war. The impossible ethnic mix in Bosnia-Herzogovina, which was also allowed to declare independence, did the rest. Contrary to the statement in #353, the Serbs were chased out of Croatia in 1995.
Now, in the attitude displayed towards Greece, we see again segments of German society displaying a rather arrogant attitude. The Euro arrangements are very profitable for Germany, which has by far the largest trading surplus of the Eurozone, and makes two-thirds of its exports within the EU. Of course, Germans may argue that this is because of their hard work, capable industries, etc., but they profit handsomely. This does not justify the abuse implied on the frontpage of the FOCUS magazine, nor the absurd propositions reported in Bild of right wing politicians suggesting to sell off islands or the Acropolis (along with Bild's own display of its contemptuous attitude towards Greeks).
What was more positive was the proposition of the SPD: Greece puts its house in order, and Germany occupies itself with the speculators. This is what might actually happen. Moreover, the proposal of creating a European Monetary Fund might also help. Despite assertions of IMF chief Strauss-Kahn, we'll have to wait and see whether the other southern European countries won't be attacked by the Wall Street bankers. It is of utmost importance to try to rein in Wall Street firms, where bonusses in one year are of the same order of magnitude as the debt rollover of Greece. Of course Greece needs to put her house in order, but the current attitude of leniency towards Wall Street practices is very unpalatable.
As for the differences between attitudes in (Greek) Orthodox vs. Western European culture, I think the consequence of Western European desire that countries such as Greece, Romania and Bulgaria join the EU implies at least tolerance of their culture, and acceptance of the consequences of their history of revolts against the Ottoman Empire. Moreover, Germans need to understand that their conception of nationality (blood ties) is not accepted either by the French (who essentially define it by the territory one is born on) or by the Greeks (where it is defined by culture). So all this haggling about the parentage of modern Greek citizens is a moot point. They consider themselves Greek, adopt the dominant religion, and speak the language. So they are Greek, and the inheritors of both Ancient Greece and the Byzantine Empire. Never mind that some of the neighbours are jealous.
I can understand Greeks being worried about Turkey, what with the constant harassing about the Aegean (adoption of the 12-miles rule will make the Aegean a Greek lake, and presents a casus belli for the Turks). Turkey claims its 'immaculate conception' from the Young Turks regime, and does not want to accept the latter's responsibility for the Armenian genocide. It thereby places itself in a peculiar position. Likewise in Cyprus: they ran out of the peace talks in August 1974 to grab one third of the island.
It is here where the 'free trade' attitude of the British contrasts with what can be expected from France & Germany. I.e. the latter ought to make the Greek problems their own, in the name of solidarity. Of course, less is expected from the British, who only think about their own little problems, i.e. the rebate, the opt-outs on the Maastricht treaty, outside the euro, outside Schengen, etc., etc. But from Germany I expect a continuous exemplary behaviour, whatever it takes. WWII cannot be imputed to the current generations, but memories cannot be erased at will.
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Well Nik, put aside your offensive and blustering style and have a look at facts.
1. To be a Greek, German, Tartar, Vietnamese etc. is no qualification for giving lectures from Greek, German, Tartar, Vietnamese history / language.
2. Your arguments prove that you have no idea about process of ethnogenesis in Eastern Mediterranean. Why do you think that most of today's Turks show no mongoloid features? Or would you also expect mongoloid faces in Hungary?
3. Ancient Greek culture did not decline due to Turkish opression. It changed a lot due to Greek invasion to Asia under Alexander the Great. Asia is a mystic place and only few who invaded there remained unchanged. Greeks went to Asia and Oriental culture went to Greece. How natural, isn't it?. Thus, the Greece invaded by Romans was not the same Greece as in time of Perikles. And than, the remnants of ancient Greek culture which survived process of orientalisation and centuries of Roman rule were replaced by different Greek culture. Rather Oriental than European,Christian than pagan, despotic than democratic, slowly declining than rising. It was Byzantine culture and I belive that the rate of illiteracy during the Byzantine period was not much lower than under Turkish rule.
4. Is it worth to talk about language? Don't you know that modern Greek is so close to the ancient language because it was made to be so?
5. Is it worth to talk about ethnicity? Don't you no that Greeks were minority both in Thrace and Macedonia only 80 years ago? Do you really think that "Greeks" did not mixed with Albanians in Epeirus, Slavs and Vlachs (Romanians) in Macedonia and Turks in Thrace? (I have dropped ancient era and the Middle Ages intendly, though the qusetion should also run: Goths in Trace, Slavs in Pelopones, Jews in Thessaloniki etc.?)Less emotion, more education should be your motto!
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Amazing how someone like Chris Camp comments on things that show he is ignorant of some of the facts.Yugoslavia was a Federal state,as a Federal government,Belgrade had the right to hold it together.German recognition of Croatia,at the stern disapproval of the USA,was a major factor in the downward slide of Yugoslavia.The handling of the Yugoslav question by the so-called European powers Germany,France,brings their power status into question.They did a horrible job.
The criticism of the Greeks indicates to me,a small,close-minded person.Ironic how,Europe relied on us Greeks and our culture to name the continent and give it it's identity of democracy,law,justice,banking etc etc.
The Greek economic question will be solved.The con-jobs of the markets such as credit default swaps etc,were not created by everyday Greeks.We know where they came from...the same bankers and economists who now claim they know the solution to the problems.I think the European Central Bank,the IMF,the World Bank and the Federal Reserve here in the USA, are also to blame ,they knew what was going on and no-one has been arrested.i think it is a crime.Germany and France only survive today,because of US taxpayer bailouts...AIG money anyone??? Germany and France alone got US $ 38 billion,more likely US $ 80 billion,they always lowball the real number...Deutsche bank alone officially got US $12 billion to prop up,so,don't criticise the Greek goverment and nation for their debts,when you yourself cannot pay your bills and your figures are a sham. PM Papandreou in the US tomorrow,of course now it will be solved God Bless America......zito ta paliopeda...zito i ELLAS....
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To WebAliceinwonderland
Sorry about the name I have chosen. Frankly, I forgot about the Russian version of jablko. I was thinking more of the real fruit that comes in different flavours, differend sizes, sometimes sweet and sometimes sour. Real people are all of these things, since life is not all "sweetness and light", to use an English expression.
Dispute, or better, conflict avoidance is in my view, the fundamental reason for the European project. The battle of words here and there and across all these borders is in any event preferable.
Regards
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@ Hellenic1
> Yugoslavia was a Federal state,as a Federal government,Belgrade had the
> right to hold it together.German recognition of Croatia,at the stern
> disapproval of the USA,was a major factor in the downward slide of
> Yugoslavia.The handling of the Yugoslav question by the so-called
> European powers Germany,France,brings their power status into
> question.They did a horrible job.
So Belgrade was right to give Serbs preferential treatment and treat everyone else like second-class citizens? It was right to answer with violence and ethnic cleansing when entire populations wanted to get out of that mess they called a federal republic? It had the right to "hold it together"? At any cost?
Of course, there was a lot of the obligatory self-important throat-clearing and indignation in the United States when Germany recognised Croatia's sovereignty, having realised much sooner that the state wasn't viable and the majority of its inhabitants did not want to stay in. A "stern disapproval" from the United States is not any proof for whether or not Germany was right in recognising Croatia. As of yet, I would reserve any judgement, but I would point out that the realities on the ground speak volumes: the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is no more, because its citizens did not want it anymore. Where its territory used to be, there are now the century and millenia old nations of Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia, within their traditional borders. On viewing these undeniable facts, I think it becomes quite impossible to dismiss Germany's decision as flat-out "wrong". Personally, I think it is immoral to trap entire populations in state entities they do not want to be part of. For example, should Greece ever decide to cede from the European Union, not only would I not want to try and stop them, but I would whole-heartedly support their decision. Good bye and good luck!
> Ironic how,Europe relied on us Greeks and our culture to name the
> continent and give it it's identity of democracy,law,justice,banking
> etc etc.
With all due respect, I am going to have to challenge you on that one. The first steps towards the government system we call "democracy" today were indeed taken in ancient Greece, but as I pointed out earlier, "you" did not have anything to do with it. Ancient Greece was a vibrant, creative society, proudly inventive and technologically far ahead of everyone else in the region. Today's "Greece", on the other hand, is an economically weak and declining region in south-western Europe, largely dependent on foreign monies and trapped in a very unhealthy collective psychosis of victimhood. Some of its less thoughtful inhabitants have the temerity (or perhaps sense of humour?) to consider themselves inheritors of that great civilisation. Descendents of transient inhabitants of the land, beneficiaries of the marvels of Ottoman culture and profiteers of the European Union, they have managed to carve out an identity, that is unmistakably their own. This should be respected. One thing I cannot respect is three decades of being dependent and prospering on German money, which Germany has willingly handed over out of a sense of historic responsibility, only to guilt trip them into bailing them out, after they squandered all their money. The tone struck by certain Greek politicians has been arrogant and mendacious. That man posing as a politician on BBC claimed Germany had stolen all the Greek gold, when it was the British who shipped the gold out to Egypt and then over to London, in order to give it back to Greece after the war. Of course, Greece has squandered that gold, too, but I think it is a bit rich to forget the great service the British did for the Greeks, only to accuse the Germans of a theft that did not happen.
@ Nik
> We are not an isolated island that changed 4 times language after 4
> invasions of 1 semi-civilised and other 3 random barbarians. Bring on
> us 100 invasions, we will remain Greek. This isn’t a thing to be proud?
Not at all. It simply implies an inability to change, a stubborn refusal to learn from others and a strong tendency toward incestuous provincialism. This whole thing is a strawman argument anyway, because, as I pointed out earlier, the modern "Greek" have little or nothing in common with the ancient Greek civilisation. Even if it were so, this would be something to be proud of? To be resting on the laurels of an ancient civilisation that has long since disappeared from the face of the Earth? And never, ever contributing anything new to the advance of mankind since then? We are not ashamed of speaking a language that has changed over time, because it shows that we are an adaptable and creative nation, just like the ancient Greek of 2500 years ago. The new "Greek" do not seem to be like that. But let us not be too harsh on a nation that simply has not had a chance to leave its mark yet. The truth is that the "Greek" of today are an extremely young nation, a real "baby" if compared to other, older and more well-established nations in the region (such as the Turks or the Macedonians). Their cuisine (like so many other parts of their culture) is effectively Turkish/Ottoman, their language is a hybrid of many regional and global languages, just like English and German. I say, give this very new nation a chance! I would raise one concern, however: the "Old Greece" myth, which is so wide-spread among modern "Greeks" could potentially preclude any real nation-building, since resting on dead-people's laurels and depending on other people's money can lead to decadence and decline.
I should like to give two more examples of this before I rest my case -
Example #1
> You say Greece’s crisis is self-inflicted. Really? WWII
> self-inflicted? Cyprus self-inflicted? That your country refuses to
> respect the international law and supports Turkey in not recognising
> our sovereignty is self-inflicted by Greeks? That we are constantly
> threatened by war is self-inflicted by Greeks?
I cannot fathom how world war 2 has anything to do with it. Regardless of all the pointless chatter about the Marshall Plan, which had very little to do with it. Germans by and large, and justifiably so, admit with hesitation that the fact their country was ravaged in WW2 was self-inflicted. They picked up the pieces and became a strong and propserous nation, because they realised very quickly that they only had themselves to blame for their situation. That is the attitude of a winner. That is the attitude of a winner.
Some nations, 65 years after WW2, still blame everything that goes wrong in their country on WW2 and the Germans, rather than taking a long hard look at themselves and the mistakes they might have been making. Rather than addressing their own shortcomings, they constantly try to guilt-trip Germany into giving them more money, which they know full-well, is not really helping them, because it turns them decadent. That is the attitude of a loser.
The Cyprus question is still open. I have not made up my mind yet about which one of the two countries in my opinion has more of a title to the island. It would help both parties, I think, if both parties were just a bit less bloody-minded and insisted a bit less adamantly on the other party not laying any claim on the island, then the dispute would be easier to resolve.
Turkey should respect Greece's sovereignty. I am with you on that.
"We are constantly threatened" by war is a phrase you often hear in countries which often themselves assume an unfriendly and/or arrogant posture toward its neighbours. Neither of the two - being threatened or being respected are one-way streets.
Example #2
> Why don’t you leave us alone (i.e. chose the country we buy arms,
> chose the country we buy our energy, chose the country we want to do
> business) and let us see what happenes? Why don’t you remain calm and
> quiet and not shout and protest when we make deals with the Russians
> on the pipeline and with Chinese on the leasing of ports and let us
> see what happens.
Lacdies and gentlemen, this is what you get when you prop up a declining nation with foreign monies for too long - whingeing and finger-pointing. "Why don't you leave us alone"? "We" ARE leaving you along. "You" are a sovereign nation and you are free to do whatever you feel is right for your country. Stop the whining and stop the finger-pointing. "Why don't you let us choose the country we buy arms from?" We are letting you. Go ahead and do it. And stop the finger pointing and stop the whining. "Why don't you let us choose the country we buy fossil fuels from?" Go ahead and do it. And stop the whining and the finger-pointing. "Why don't you let us choose our business partners for ourselves?" Go ahead and do it, for goodness sake! And stop the whining and the finger-pointing.
Honestly!
One moment they claim to be the rightful inhertors of the great Greek civilisation, and the next they belly-ache about being scared of "protests" if they make their own decisions. Just listen to yourself for one second, please!
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Chris Camp...bla bla bla ....
PM papandreou in US,solution in sight,know the powerful Greeks in Chicago will pull some power moves on Obama.Besides,US and EU cannot afford hardliners coming to power in Greece.Germany not needed she has nothing ,if she can't sell Nivea and TV's to Greece,where else will she sell it? The debt crisis is sure to spread,think Spain will fall next,German banks in real trouble then,exposure to Spanish debt is far more than Greece.
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> US and EU cannot afford hardliners coming to power in Greece
That's right. If self-pity, whingeing, guilt-tripping other nations and lying doesn't help, why not try a little bit of blackmail. "Give us your money or we'll turn into a dictatorship and cause trouble." This is just getting better and better.
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Chris Camp,you sound like an negative bitter old dude man,did some Greek guy gamisi your girl and you can't handle it????? you should try growing a pair.
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I think Greece should consider selling one or two of their unproduktive islands to the Germans and/or the Dutch.Maybe even France.
They could then populate it with some of their unemployed but very motivated,and of course create a functioning and sustainable Vacation paradise.
Which in return will bring profit back to the rest of Greece,and they will like it ,too.
Since they will have to go back to Druckmee's,that are worth ,...what ?
Think about it,it could be the solution for so many Greek problems,...
let's say, Fritz get's Cyprus....you couldn't ruin Sunday in Istanbul better than sending hans into ottomans backyard
The Dutch get the ferry-business,at least they don't sink and nobody gets robbed on the trip....Medicinal Herbs on board.
But wait, there is more....
Let's say....Germany agrees on reparation,.....
......in exchange Greece accepts a large amount of EUROS for a 999 year lease!
The islands will prosper in no time, just look what they did to formerly known as east germany
....that place was a dump when "re-united"
I had to go 'east 'on a 4 month tour right after the fall of "the wall"....and i felt a lot of anger and frustration.Towards me as a westerner,and from me towards the situation itself,like i could have or should have done something. It was felt for a long time and probably still is unresolved in many comunitys.the scars of almost 50 years of ....madness...will be seen on this nation for a long time.
BUT...If they can fix the wild east, they can fix Cyprus!
Maybe a Greek backdoor into EUROLANDS market to keep the flow of MONEY goin'! check it
Everybody happy, no problem 20 000 greek soldiers go home and save Gov. money,check it
Teutonic tourists spending doe left and right , check it
maybe a Casino and a brothel and you'll be able to attract some middle easterners too.... check it
Now all you have to do is add KARAOKE and the sky is your limit!
and from a Greek point of view,You really stuck it to the Turks.
check it out
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The Greek people elected PM Papandreou and then as in a coup the other party ousted the leaders Mr. Karamanlis and Ms. Backoyianni. Then there was no opposition to the PM of the ...Socialist Party. Then Mr. Pangalos who once called Germany the giant with a midgets brain...became the leaders of this mess along with its financial crisis.
All for the return to Drachma...a less transperent currency where the Greek bosses will hide all of their doings all the way back to WWII.
Its Greece's fault...blame it to the Greeks so they can make their deposits in Swiss accounts...
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Please note, the greek currency was rotten in 1944 & has only falsly im proved by using the Euro & leaning on the other members, I know , cos I was there when they were starving. A small loaf of bread cost us
Marines £ 10, an egg was £5,Who paid for the airport on the Ilse of corfu
in later years?--- Are we back to that again ?
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