A way of life under threat
In the United States politicians often speak of the American way of life. In Britain too, there are many eager to defend the British way of life. Their words are rarely defined. Part of the appeal of fighting for a "way of life" is that it is understood intuitively by the audience.
Now the relatively new President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, has begun speaking of a "European way of life". He fears it is under threat. It cannot be sustained in a Europe with sluggish growth, he says.
Only recently, with the euro being buffeted in the financial markets, President of the European Commission Jose Manuel Barroso spoke expansively of "making Europe a resource-efficient, inclusive, social market economy - reflecting what makes us special, the European way of life".
This "European way of life" is a little hard to define, but outsiders usually think it means strong social welfare, high public spending, generous pension provisions and robust safety nets. For many it is a key element in what makes for civilised society.
Part of the fallout from the recession is that the scythe is being taken to public spending. It is not voluntary. It is being driven by the markets, who are forcing governments to reduce their deficits and clean up their finances.
So at a moment when recovery is fragile, governments are embracing deep spending cuts and risking choking off the first signs of recovery. Demand may be being reduced just at the wrong moment. Even so, the public sector is under assault.
Take Ireland. It has imposed a 4bn-euro (£3.5bn) austerity package. Pay in the public sector has been slashed. Welfare benefits have been cut. Pensions for state workers have been reduced. Such a package in the UK would be politically unimaginable.
In Spain, they are considering a 50bn-euro cut in public spending over four years, even though its national debt as a proportion of GDP (at 66%) is below the average in the EU. Their remedies, so far, are not as harsh as the Irish treatment, but last week a document raised the possibility of lowering Spanish retirement pensions. The unions leapt from their seats and the idea was shelved, but it is an indication of the way the wind is blowing. Calling time on a culture of generous provision is so sensitive that the King has spoken up, calling for unity.
Portugal, too, is looking to cut back on infrastructure projects. Austerity programmes are being drawn up.
In France, President Sarkozy faces tough talks with unions and bosses to push through a reform of French pensions. Retirement at 60 is no longer being taken for granted.
And of course Greece is freezing public sector pay, raising the retirement age and is under pressure to prune its generous pension system.
Deficits may be changing the European way of life.
That is a hard message to sell. And Greece shows how hard. The Greek Prime Minister, George Papandreou, played Mr Austerity as he sat with other European leaders last week. When he returned home the tone changed. The EU, he said, had been "timid" in the face of the crisis. He is dead right. If he wants to see "timid" he should visit Germany, where a majority of Germans want Greece thrown out of the eurozone. Why? Because, with the acquiescence of Brussels, Greece massaged its figures to join the euro. Then it fiddled the accounts.
The Germans are not in the mood for generosity. "We don't help an alcoholic by giving him another bottle of Schnapps," said Frank Schaeffler, deputy finance spokesman for the liberal Free Democrats (FDP). The deputy head of Angela Merkel's Christian Democrat (CDU) party in parliament said "if we start now (bailing out), where do we stop?"
A lot of Greeks I spoke to last week want the pain to be shared. They see it as part of belonging to the European Union. In good times it may be so, but they should not count on German or French workers reaching into their pockets to save them. A bail-out can't be hidden away. People will know and some taxpayers may object. This is where the IMF becomes an attractive option. Europeans may have to swallow some pride and allow an outside fund to do what they may find politically difficult.
Now in Brussels, Mr Papandreou was saying that Greece was not asking for any money. Well not yet, but a member of his inner circle told me last week that the markets did not believe that Greece could cut its deficit to 3% of GDP by 2012. Either Greece will be rescued or it will default. That is the message I took away from Athens.
Even if the EU breathes life into a rescue package the euro is wounded. Too many economists believe it has flaws written into it. It is difficult sustaining a single currency when sovereign states have different fiscal policies. Some in Brussels see this as an opportunity to push for further integration. It will be a move full of risk. There is no evidence the voters want it, as was shown in some of the votes on the Lisbon Treaty. And such a pooling of sovereignty could not be just nodded through as if it were some minor adjustment. In any event, if the euro were run by a single treasury it would deepen divisions between those in the eurozone and those outside.
So, as often happens in politics, events move with bewildering speed. Just a few weeks ago European officials were clamouring for their voice to be heard in the world. Now their single currency faces an uncertain future and the "European Way of Life" is just that bit harder to define.
I'm 
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"There is no evidence the voters want it, as was shown in some of the votes on the Lisbon Treaty"...
Interesting that you state that as if the New Aristocracy gave a tinker's cuss.
This is a golden opportunity for the Federalists and I doubt they will miss it. Coming hot on the heels of the Lisbon Treaty, they may have doubts they can push it without a violent backlash. However I think they will go for it as we are not close to that stage yet and that is all they are concerned about. Other than that our opinions mean diddly squat.
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It is interesting Gavin that Europe's leaders are now talking about what is essentially a vacuous concept. It seems that they are losing touch with reality ever more. Politicans want this and are trying to force it on their electorates. This is a theme I have been reading about on the excellent notayesmanseconomics web blog.When they need to do something like bail out Greece all they can manage is rhetoric which ill serves both Greece and Europe.
Meanwhile I read on notayesmanseconomics that last week Greece's economic situation deteriorated....
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@Freeman.
There are different degrees of European federalists. I consider myself to be one, but there is no way I support a bail out of Greece. On the contrary, I think they are straight forward scum. This is another robbery of my Dutch wallet. We ship 0.8% of our GDP to Africa, while it has been proved that only 25% is spent in the right way. We ship another 5bn Euro a year to corrupt nations like Bulgaria, Italy and Greece. And now a country that has manipulated, that has lied, that has enjoyed billions of Euros a year called "European solidarity", is only planning to raise the retirement age to 63 years. I'm furious. My dad has to work till 65, 60 hours a week to pay for this damn world. The EU should never have evolved to the way it is now: a corrupt mess. Ideally I would say quit the Euro and start something new with proper nations like Germany, Hollanda, Finland and Luxembourg. However, if the people from the north have to vote for bailing out or let them rot, I would choose to let them rot. Financial solidarity is over.
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I work for a private sector company that has continued to make decent profits during the downturn. However the response to the downturn was a serious tightening of the corporate belt, with a lot of perks going and a couple of rounds of layoffs. The profitability of the company is such that we did not 'need' to make those cuts but if there were no cuts ever then the company would get ever more out of shape. The credit crisis was the signal that it was time to put the corporate house in order for the next economic cycle.
Now i realize things are a little different in the public sector and Keynesian logic dictates that when the private sector is tightening the belt, public sector spending can cushion the downturn. But a time must come when the public sector needs to put its house in order and that should be the moment that the private sector turns the corner. It seems clear to me that the corner has already been turned in the private sector and now is the moment to restore public finances to a healthy state. This has been delayed in the UK by the upcoming election, but must begin on May 7.
As for a "European way of life" i am sure it does not exist. Those who use that phrase are referring to one particular social model as practiced in the countries around the Rhine. As often France and Germany appear to believe they have some god-given right to say what is “European” and so call the flabby corporatist Rhineland model the “European way of life” when it is neither the only social model, nor the most successful. There is a better way, which is Anglo-Saxon capitalism. This is not capitalism red in tooth and claw, but one in which the state redistribute to give children an equal start in life, and to help those who fall during the race of life, but which does not seek to manipulate the outcome such that everyone ends up at the finishing line together.
The English-speaking countries of the world have been the leaders for three centuries, and remain the pathfinders culturally, economically, technologically and militarily. We in the English-speaking world should not be ashamed of Anglo-Saxon capitalism which is, like democracy, the least bad system found to date. What we must be wary of is EU imposition of the less successful flabby corporatist Rhineland model. If that is what they want in France and Germany then fine, but any attempt to declare that this is somehow the one true European way of organizing the economy, which can then be imposed by QMV from Brussels must be rejected out of hand. The best should win out over the less good, where as Paris, Berlin and Brussels are constantly tempted to use the coercive power of the supremacy of EU law to bring the more successful down to their level.
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Even the first reich of the Holy Roman Empire did not have a single curency now the fouth reich is struggling to keep it going. Either Greece accepts it's now part of Germany and takes it's medicine or we have Euro II for the strugglers. The only alternative is a massive deflation 30-50% to bring the holiday makers back.
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# Thomas. Apologies for not making myself completely clear. There may not be a bail out for Greece. I do not know...I would certainly disagree if I was German. What I am certain will happen is more centralised control as a future "safeguard". If that involves a Greece bailout then the opinions of your Dad, you and I are all irrelevant.
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The Elite can talk about a "European way of life" in the same way as they can talk about "Fairies at the bottom of the garden". To try and draw a comparison in way of life between (for example) Greece and Britain would be tenuous at best.
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I would understand a European way of life to mean one that reflects the past few thousand years of European national traditions including a joint history, shared beliefs and a common culture. I agree that cultures develop and that change is part of this, but this evolved culture is what makes a way of life and this is what is under threat in today's globalised world.
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I agree with #3 Thomas. What Europe has done would be akin to the USA opening its borders to Mexico and introducing the dollar there, and inviting the rest of Central/Southern America to join in at a future date. More and more ever-poorer countries have joined and are still clamouring to join the EU, not to fulfil some idealistic ‘no more wars’ dream, but to get their noses firmly in the trough.
The European way of life is probably already lost. The proportion of welfare-dependent economically inactive inhabitants is exponentially increasing, tax rates are on the up and despite the bleating of politicians, the taxpayers of Europe have to work longer hours during a longer working life for a non-guaranteed pension. The wealth that is created is taken at source from the earner, then spread thinner and thinner amongst the numerous (and many non-deserving) beneficiaries. Corruption is endemic and the EU institution itself is the worst culprit.
The EU has got to wake up and smell the coffee. Charity begins at home.
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Behind all the useless government courses for the unemployed there are at least 8 million unemployed.
They have already had their way of life crushed.
For some unknown reason the under 25s receive less money than the over 25s. Do they need less food to live?
The real levels of unemployment are hidden and the economic CRASH is ongoing showing no real signs of stopping.
In fact Communism failed to destroy the world but Capitalism is bang on course. A no win same old game of nihilist competition.
The pensions values are tending towards zero becoming pensions in name only. (How many food stamps will your pension eventually buy?)
I predict the Euro hitting the ground later than the pound. Since Euro countries actually produce manufactured goods and Britain sells useless services guess which of the two will rise from the gutter first. Certainly not Britain because its politicians both Conservative and Labour have neither lived up to their names and administered the once Great British manufacturing industry to China. Traitors the lot of them.
If the politicians really wanted to help its own people and maintain a standard of living Citizens Income would be introduced.
It would cost less than the present benefits system.
The poor would be less the scapegoat and the politicians could not be as lazy as they are. They might just have to start talking about real issues instead of sound bite nonsense.
With Proportional Representation the corporations would not be able to get their hooks into the politicians and control political parties so easily.
As it all stands right now in terms of standards of unemployment Britain looks remarkably like Spain.
The shrinking middle class and the government and politicians have done me no real favours so bring on the Euro.
The bankers are back to the same tricks no lesson learned. The pharma industry conned the public purse with fake pig plague. Apart from the corrupt middle class of Greece who else is looking for a handout?
Standard of living? Citizens Income for everyone. Non means tested. And real basic democracy.
It's that or riots. Just like Greece. There is never enough CCTV to stop it happening and never enough prisons to contain it.
Business likes to see a good infrastructure before it moves to an area.
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"In the United States politicians often speak of the American way of life."
This has just as much or little meaning in the US as anywhere else. I hardly think that bathhouse orgies in San Francisco and gun-toting blacks-lynching evolution-denialism in Tallahassee are part of the same "way of life". Politicians use the phrase because the everyone in the audience thinks that it refers to *their* own way of life.
Moreover, there is nothing new about deficits and I see no reason why any short-term economic crisis should have any effect on the "European model" of social welfare and so on. Really one should be looking at longer-term trends.
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Gavin Hewitt has got it right in this sharp analysis of Eurozone's growing pains, the whys and the larger questions finally triggered.
I'm not sure there ever was a European way of life for there is considerable economic diversity within the 27-member EU bloc.Yet we may be agreed on the broader definition as spelt out in the article.Now those menacing fiscal deficits have come to the fore from one year to the next politicians are faced with difficult choices under 'uneasy' social conditions at the very least.But the question that needs asking is whether or not Greece would end up where it did even if there had been no recession, only later.For me that question has answered itself years ago simply tracking the way Greece was being run.
Surely there was EU complicity and a blind eye was systematically turned at what was going on down there right from the Euro's inception.A single currency backed up by a demanding economy such as Germany's would eventually be troubled by Greece's laxed ways and indiscipline in the absence of a common fiscal policy.Something has got to change after the worst of this crisis is over if the Euro is to resume a mostly successful path to a remarkably ambitious pan-European project.
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I can assure you that the 'European way of life' is actually very different in the various countries of Europe, witness the number of Brits who emigrate to Spain and have absolutely no understanding of the Spanish way of life or culture or attitudes and have niether the interest or ability to do so. In truth Europe will always be divided by cultural difference unless one nation can impose it's culture on all others (Germany starting with Greece, then maybe Spain and Portugal)? The only truly common ground is a natural human desire for comfortable living. All countries of the world are on, more or less, the same track and will reach the point at which Europe now stands at some time.
As regards Anglo Saxon capitalism (Freeborn John) being the ideal model, it would be well to note that ASC has changed significantly in recent decades from a system that also invested where it exploited to one which effectively rapes without consequence (grab the money and hang the consequences, Thatcherism). Britain has had and still does have, actually, the capacity to develop a model in the world which would be a suitable target to satisfy global human aspiration through economic development. Sadly Britain has become too insular and small minded to adapt to globalism, it can't even manage Europeanism being to keen on it's Island mentality.
Europe cannot federally integrate but it could globally accommodate. No point trying to shoehorn incompatible cultures into a one size fits all. It's simply not going to happen!
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Interesting point, but, actually I think that there is such a thing as a European way of life - the UK way of life has far more in common with our European neighbours, especially Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, than any of us/them have with the US. Religion and the politics of health care (or rather the total lack of it for 36 million of their own citizens in the US) should be proof of that; not to speak of far more common history between us and our near nieghbours than our schools will ever allow our childen to learn about.
"Take Ireland. It has imposed a 4bn-euro (£3.5bn) austerity package. Pay in the public sector has been slashed. Welfare benefits have been cut. Pensions for state workers have been reduced. Such a package in the UK would be politically unimaginable"
Sadly Gavin, you are probably right. Eurosceptics always sold us the idea that we were better off out of the Euro than in it, because we would be able to act independently of the Eurozone and manage our own currency.
As I feared, our gutless politicians are using this independence to avoid all proper financial discipline, and mis-manage our economy, print money, debauch our currency (which will eventually wipe out the savings of those of us who resisted the temptation to overspend and go into debt). What Ireland is doing is exactly what the UK should be doing, and doing fast to balance the books. In a few years time, Ireland will have cleansed its system and come out of all this stronger and with higher growth than us. I had hoped to hear tough talk on spending from David Cameron, but he seems to be back tracking on this too.
Instead, we go on behaving just like Greece: spending money that we haven't earned in the hopes that inflation and a falling currency will rescue us, those with savings impoverished as a result; those without impoverished by yeras of slow growth, and high interest rates that will inevitably follow. Years of decline will be guaranteed.
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Crackers (13): There is no country in the world with a more global outlook than the UK. Indeed this is part of the EU problem as seen from London. To fly from London to Berlin or Milan is to retreat into a more provincial life where it is possible to imagine you can cut yourself off in a Fortress Europe in which Anglo-Saxon capitalism can be legislated out of existence through the supremacy of EU law, and that the long-term consequence will not be the relocation of what wealth we have to New York or Shanghai. The true insular attitude is therefore that of the Rhineland and its eurozone hinterland.
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Funny how some economists will bang on about unified fiscal policy as a requirement for currency area stability. While it's hard to argue that a greater degree of *effective* coordination would aid the Euro, I don't think it's a given that the absence of unified policy will cause instability. How many federalised states are there which show the lie to this?
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Let's face it: the South is corrupt. The societies there have grown lazy and incompetent. The Greek government proposes necessary budget cuts and the whole country goes on strike? Do they not read any newspapers?
The early retirement age in Germany is 63. In Greece it's 57. It's just one of many, many examples that neatly illustrate how the South has been leeching on the North.
The fault line runs through the Alps. Germany, Austria, the Benelux and Finland should seize the euro and make it their own. Other Nordic nations may join if they wish to do so. We'll see how the South will fare on its own, I predict not well.
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Forgive the chuckling. For years the socialist union based policies of Europe have been eroding the very life thats so cherished, and no one has been paying attention. When the money finally runs out we'll hopefully see a return to a true market based economic policy that actually rewards those that work, and penalises those that don't. Until then, keep digging that hole!
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Those of you comparing this to the USA might want to realize that in the USA, states subsidize one another. New York for instance gives $2 to the Federal Gov't for every $1 it gets back, while in the poorer states it's the reverse. And since the gov't controls transfers in such a fashion, there are no rigid one-size-fits-all price controls. When the USA becomes uncompetitive and falls behind in a market, they print money. In the Eurozone, there is a lot of tight-fistedness, and the belief is that you can't devalue in order to preserve low interest rates. But that doesn't benefit undiversified countries like Greece that rely on tourism and shipping (two services that do not do well in a recession). They can't devalue to improve competitiveness. The net result: it's like the Alabamans having to pay Manhattan, NY prices for food and shelter but without the subsidies. So, don't compare the situation to the USA opening the borders to Mexico. American states already make such transfers. I mean, citing the fact that .8% of your taxpayer funds go somewhere else is not going to win sympathy anywhere.
You have two choices: integrate your economies, or chuck those countries out of the EU and be satisfied with small markets for your industries and occasional turbulence (i.e. strife) from the poor countries on your periphery. You know, if the rest of the world had this attitude about Europe and especially Germany after World War 2, where would you be today? We saw what a basket case Germany became in the interwar period. Was that your future?
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I find some of your comments repulsive!
The financial and political reality in Greece is undoubtly characterised by corruption, terrorism and flaws in all levels. That's truly outrageous.
What annoys me the most though, is the corruption residing in your mentality and ideologies.
I can sense an abundant narcissistic shallowness of spirit in most of you, 'powerful' european money-blinded citizens, that cannot see further than your dad's pension and your brother's salary that might not be enough to buy as many sausages and beers as he always dreamt off to fullfill his potential!
Its so sad that the history is repeated in such a dissapointing viciousness.
Our plasmatic egos' prevent us from viewing the world in a humane way, realizing that there is more than ourselves,our wallets, our families, our countries to care about and that OUR own actions in history profoundly influence the route of the world's economy, culture and 'European way of life'.
This responsibility we all ought to share!
I cannot think of any single country/governement corruption-free either socially, financially or ideologically.
Let's just start changing this reality that doesnt satisfy any of us instead of putting the blame on the different sides of the same 'euro'.
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The European public can now read in its media that American Wall Street banks, particularly Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan, have lend the money, which made it possible for Greece to abandon the budget discipline and increase the deficit.
Gikas A. Hardouvelis, a Greek economist, has said this about it: “Politicians want to pass the ball forward, and if a banker can show them a way to pass a problem to the future, they will fall for it.”
This is a very generalised statement. Let us not forget there are other European countries, members of the union, with economic situations that are nowhere close to that of Greece, but so much can be said: Politicians are not in the league of the courageous.
We now see proposals for how a member country can be thrown out of the Euro. It is unlikely to happen, but Greece has delivered falsified accounts, probably with the assistence of the American banks, and this faking will return to Greece as a political problem.
Members of the Euro zone will be asking for control of the Greek budget. However, once again it will also include control of the finance sector, which has been on the agenda of the G7 for some time now. This time we might perhaps expect the American president to be more attentive since his financial sector is also causing a lot of problems in his currency zone. In any case, Greek politicians will be forced to show more courage.
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So why should I want to be in a political union with the Greeks?
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"In France, President Sarkozy faces tough talks with unions and bosses to push through a reform of French pensions. Retirement at 60 is no longer being taken for granted."
So the French retire at sixty!!!!?? I didn't know that. So for years people in the UK who cannot retire until they are sixty-five have been paying for French people to retire at 60! No wonder they want us in the"EU" !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re 3: You can bash Greece or any other corrupt state as much as you want (we do for our state much more than you do actually – this is a state that hardly ever represented Greece). But just to show how ignorant you are :
Disband the EU and create something new with nations such as Holland and Germany? I say ANYTIME! But bear the consequences’:
1) Greece got into the EU for 1 thing: not for money, not to join the club of the rich nothing like that for the main reason: to seek protection in a geopolitically sensitive region since it had been under continuous attack by its own “ally”, the US. The how go search (I am not going to do all the work here).
2) Without the EU geopolitical support (it hardly ever received for known reasons) it will search the help of the last case: Russia.
So Greece out with the EU and Greece ally of Russia. Russia in this case will just take Bulgaria along (very very easy to do sine Bulgarians are under attack too…).
1) Gaz pipeline comes down to Greece (via Bulgaria)
2) Russian naval bases in Crete
3) Russian land bases in mainland Greece
4) Russians drill Greek oil in the Aegean
5) Turks cease to be offensive to Greeks for the simple reason that a following wrong move will mean their end (at best case they will end up as Georgia ended, i.e. completely disbanded, a caricature of a state).
Russia via Greek pipeline offers cheap gaz at rates few can refuse.
I very much like this VERY possible scenario which can be fought off only with EU and US attacking Greece before such an alignments is completed (i.e. before Russian bases are set on the country). This scenario has the positive of putting the riff-raff way…
It’s a scenario but keep it in mind next time you wonder why the EU got Greece inside in the first case.
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I just want to say an obvious thing but i think that everybody forget it. Money is a faboulous human invention created to exchange real thing. Thus economy doesn't work alone and our system is responsible for recessions, housing shortage or credit crunch. Our capitalism and our planet is dying and everybody is responsible for this situation, by watching stupid TV show and eating poisonous food we become a herd of consumers, it's the real problem and the global downturn is just a fallout. The fallout of a new way of life in which we try not to think.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The circumstances Europe finds itself in are the inevitable consequences of the process that has been in progress for decades. It's a history Europe has refused to take a hard look at, to consider, and to plan action to avert. It centers on how Europe recovered from WWII, how the conditions of that recovery changed with the end of the cold war, and how it refused to consider that if it didn't change in response it would die. Now after no change, it has, it is in the process of dying. Events are moving along an entirely predictable trajectory which I have been posting about for several years here. Platitudes and accusations won't change it, it isn't clear anything can. Events will force Europe to see itself and the world with far greater clarity than it has been willing to up to now.
Here's a recap. After the second world war, America saw it was in its vital national interest to rebuild western Europe to some measure of prosperity and security to prevent it from falling into the Soviet Union's evil empire, the Soviet quest for world domination and control. To do this, the US government had neither the resources nor the expertise for such a massive and sustained undertaking. The Marshall plan was a humanitarian relief effort only. To do this, two important steps were key. US policy was geared to give incentives to large American corporations, the greatest engines of wealth creation in the world to invest in Europe. This provided Europe with jobs, infrastructure, money. To facilitate this America opened its markets freely to the products of European industry while allowing Europe to keep protectionist barriers to outsiders who wanted to export to Europe. Therefore for example, the European appliance, clothing, and automotive industries flourished. Much cheaper products made in Japan were priced out of the market by Europe's protectionist tarrifs. For example, a small 13" Sony Trinatron TV set which would sell in the US for about $350 cost over $700 in France in 1973. This allowed companies like Schneider and Thompson to thrive. European merchandise was available cheaply all over the US. To relieve Western Europe of the majority of the cost of defending itself militarily, NATO was created to shift the burden largely to American taxpayers. So American taxpayers and workers who lost jobs to Europeans effectively subsidized Western Europe's recovery and prosperity. The USSR was forced to do something similar in Eastern Europe but on a much cruder and more limited scale owing to its clearly inferior economy and technology. Still Eastern Europeans gained advantage at the expense of Soviet taxpayers.
The situation changed as the cold war began winding down and America shifted its focus to China. China in 1973 when President Nixon and Secretary of State Kissinger visited there was comparable to North Korea today only on a much vaster scale. It also had the technology to build hydrogen bombs. This situation could not be allowed to continue as it presented a dire threat to the entire world. American indusry partnered with the Chinese government to convert China from a command Soviet style economy to a market driven economy manufacturing cheap exports which gained easy entry to the US. Globalization was the process by which the world became a more level playing field. The advantage Europe had previously enjoyed in what I call an American built economic hothouse was gone. But Europe's habits of spending on its lavish social safety nets its citizens had come to expect and demand as their birth right and their innate hostility to free market capitalism by taxing profits far too excessively to give investors incentives combined with a vast maze of bureaucracies and regulations also typical of Europe became the operative driving force behind European economics. That Europeans refused to see this and adjust for it was the result of its hubris, its firm conviction that it had created its own prosperity after WWII.
During this most recent period, Europe has free wheeled on the remnants of its former industrial base while not yielding an inch to its new circumstances. It could do this because it was able to borrow a lot of money to bridge the gap between what it spent and what it produced. The hubris of the EU was the attempt to build a megalith, a political and economic superpower to challenge the United States, clearly in retrospect what even Europeans must see as a laughable and hopeless task and motivated by nothing more than ego. Of course the EU overlooked the fraudulent statements regarding Greece's economy when it applied for entry. The purpose was to include enough countries to have a population and GDP numbers comparable to the US. The inherent contradictions, disadvantages, even absurdities in such a plan would not be considered because they would fly in the face of the main objective. Eastern Europe having lost its Soviet Subsidies of course had been eager to join enjoying a new benefactor whose goal was to appear larger than the US. And for awhile the illusion worked for some people, especially Europeans themselves who wanted to believe in this new doctrine.
So where does Europe find itself in the face of the current circumstances where a major international financial crisis has essentially dried up all credit? In a situation where all of its self created problems can no longer be papered over on credit. Europe will now have to revert to a standard of living based on its true productivity when measured in light of far stronger competitors who now enjoy a more or less level playing field in each of its core competencies. Europe is at a distinct disadvantage to someone else in every market it competes in. That level will force Europe to lower it standard of living hugely. And this brings into question the entire concept of a European Union. Considering the sacrifices that will be necessary, will those in the relatively more affluent EU nations be willing to make additional sacrifices to keep this union especially when many of the concessions to create it were never agreed to by the populations who will now have to suffer the consequences ever more painfully than anyone ever thought? Those committments made in their name without their consent is proof positive that not only is the EU a despotic tyranny but so are its constituent nations, especially the more affluent ones. What have Blair/Brown, Schroeder/Merckel, Chirac/Sarkozy agreed to that their populations don't know about yet. How much deeper will they have to dig into their pockets when those chits are thrown on the table and it comes time to pay up? The process of decline for Europe has barely begun. And the icing on the cake is that Europe's hubris was so great that it unnecessarily and for no rational reason intentially alienated the entire nation of the United States which will offer it no help even if it could. There's no going back on that now either.
A Chinese curse; may you live in interesting times.
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Thomas - Italy is a net-contributer.
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Rafi #8
beautifully summarised!
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I agree with 27
We in the west (and Europe) cannot continue with our high wage life style importing most of the stuff we buy from low cost China.
We have to start reducing our wages and costs (gradually) so that a sort of wage equilibrium comes about.
What can we export to China ? - nothing - they are already into solar power, wind power, high speed trains (copied from Angela) and they are now making large civil airliners. The US exports unwanted pieces of chicken to China!
Otherwise we will keep importing too much and keep outsourcing our jobs (eg it said today that 1 in 10 UK firms plans to outsource jobs to Eastern Europe this year)
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Nik,
Now there is the comment of the welfare driven. Feel free to 'wish' for the alignment to Russia. Many had ended up there in the past, only to find that welfare comes at a price...a heavy price.
There is little to benefit from that cold war mentality. Your concrete apartments are well on their way!
No one is going to care frankly, the EU will be rid of a problem if your feelings are shared by the Greeks. Lets hope Greeks in general don't believe this way and decide to fight their way out of this hole. They dug it themselves, but there is no reason to write someone off.
The EU should give some help, but it should be limited and little in size. Someone in credit card debt should not be given yet another credit card. If Greece really wants to do better, the little help they receive will be made the most of and then perhaps more will follow.
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I understand the anger of some old Europe, wealthier countries over the current crisis in Greece and elsewhere in Europe. However, from the standpoint of Easter Europe, most of which is yet to join the eurozone, the messages being sent by Germany and the rest of the "developed" big Brothers in the west are unsettling.
We know there's corruption in Greece, Italy and in Eastern Europe. However, there is no society that is corruption-free. In the case of Eastern Europe, our history has been full of devastation, wars, famine, and even slavery, in the form of the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans for more than 400 years! Historically speaking, how do you expect these countries to be paragons of virtue when it comes to governance? In big parts of Eastern Europe, we're only beginning to recover from the aftershocks of communism and dictatorship. Sadly, most of these countries seem to be falling into another master-servant mentality, this time just switching the master to the U.S. The EU needs to wake-up and realize that we want to be part of a unified Europe that stands on its own feet politically, militarily and economically and is the biggest and most influential force in the world. Sadly, the US strategy of divide and conquer seems to be working again-the UK, for all its Europhobia looks like a Trojan horse for American interests in Europe, along with Turkey. The americans have no interest in open confrontation, they just like to do enough damage, that the region or country will not be able to expand and challenge their national interest globally. What do you think was the deal with Bosnia, Kosovo and Georgia? Also, who do you think gains from instability in Europe? While we're busy criticizing and fighting each other over here, we cannot challenge the Americans on a global scale. I believe that Russia and Eastern Europe are an integral part of the European way of life, as loosely definable as it is. Greater integration on the European continent will only strengthen the EU and our common way of life, which is definitely NOT the Anglo-Saxon way and it should not be under any circumstances. We saw how very successful it's proving across the ocean and how it triggered the biggest recession since the 1930's, which incidently was also triggered by this famous Anglo-Saxon Capitalistic model! The US way of life is much worse for the middle class, or whatever is left of it there, than the current European lifestyle. The income stratification is huge, with a lot of people on the low scale of income, and very few on the top end, who control an increasing share of the wealth. In reality, this is the wealth-structure of Sub-Saharan Africa. Urban plight across the country, huge proportion of uninsured people, outsourcing of industry which has left 80% of the black population indigent and living in crime-ridden areas, real incomes that has not risen anywhere near the levels of dollar devaluation since the 1970's...I think the American dream is dead, and we Europeans should not even try to emulate the AS model at all, but provide an alternative that takes into account the interests of citizens, not just the banks and the millitary-industrial-walstreet complex...
We believe in Europe.
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EUprisoner,
before reprimanding Greeks for early retirement, to be objective check first somewhere how long they live overall. I have no idea, honestly.
I know that in Russia retirement age for men is also awful early, just 60, but the reason is Russian men don't live longer than 58-59. They never even see their pension :o)))) Kremlin now says they will lift it up to 65 but Russians don't care or are, even, curious, happy and interested - because it means the government may be hopes somehow to make it so that we live longer?
And anyway Russian pension is death, 100 dollars a month, not slow death but quick death, all hate pension time, nobody wants to retire, has to be made to, all try to stay suspend somehow to continue working and not to be fired at pension time.
But of course in Europe where pensions are good may be "pension time" is something to be looked for in happy anticipation :o))) - but we can't imagine that. We are all for to have it here 70 or 75 or - give us a hundred! :o)))))
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Regarding this whole mess and the European integration, I would say...
...Fiscal union, No.
...Common accounting standards for European states, Yes.
...Common auditing of accounts for European states, Yes.
There is no room for Fiscal union, because our societies and states differ quite much on what services they provide, where they spend money and how much they collect it. Moving into Fiscal union would necessitate further unification of various social and public system in member states, which would be a risky move without any obvious benefits. You see today we have 27 various European ways of life, if few of them go into an dead end and have to make a dramatic U-turn, life continues still in the 25 other states. Do compare this to USA where one size fits health-care system has lead to an inefficient and impossible to change economic black hole that costs the US taxpayer double relative to GDP than various other system in various European countries. That is a no go.
However there is room and need for both common accounting standards and audition of accounts for European states, especially for Eurozone states. The reason why the situation in Greece got so bad and why the crisis was so sudden is because there was a fraud committed by the state. If Greece wouldn't have defrauded ECB, other Eurozone states and most importantly markets, the markets would have charged Greece higher interest rates which would have in time lead the state and the people to notice that they are inuring debts and that the direction they have taken is unsustainable, this would have prepared both politicians and the people to make a compromise to cut spending and fix the situation. Now this whole situation could have been avoided if there wouldn't have been room for Greek politicians to curb the rules and commit a fraud by having common European accounting standards and auditing for states.
I do hope that the EU and the ECB takes the ball and puts down very quickly a proposal to have common accounting and auditing for the EU and Eurozone states. If this is done properly and it increases openness and awareness on what is going on in the accounts of different states, with long run we will be able to increase trust of the markets to both the EU and individual EU member states thus leading us to have finance with lower marginals.
PS. While the Greek politicians and the state did wrong by fudging their books so did the investment banks that helped them to make it. In business there is such a thing as "good business practice" which in short is the accepted standard and policy on making business that all competitors and clients accept. With assisting on hiding financial information and defrauding both states and the markets, it is clear that the banks didn't follow any good business practice.
I also think that the ECB and the EU should start a public investigation on what happened with Greece and how much advantage the banks in question got and did they took further advantage with the information of the financial situation in Greece. For example Goldman helped Greece to hide their debts, they knew the real situation, and they knew more or less with an exact time on when the Greek financial bomb would go off, this information they could have used to their advantage in the markets. If that is a case, there is heavy punishment that must be set up on them.
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To Digmen1 (30):
Except that the Eurozone actually does have a positive trade balance most of the time. Eurozone is not USA, we still have something called trade surplus.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Balance-of-Trade.aspx?Symbol=EUR
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Re Mes. 27: MarcusAureliusII : This post of yours tells some harsh truths – and I add more! – but does not include other important details – still it is a very nice message of yours that adorns this discussion!
I have really many points to add all over it such as (randomly):
1) Back in 1945 the “Marshall Plan” was less of a humanitarian aid than a smart move to get rid of US over-production of unwanted products.
2) Germany received its “Marshall Plan” more in the way of bombardements: the impressive Allies’ bed bombing over Germany somehow managed to destroy the biggest part of German cities and the 90% of German infrastructure (roads, railways etc.) but managed to destroy about 5% of German industrial output: please do not search it I have done research on the “German miracle” that on behalf of a co-student in the UK, (his essay got the “higest ever mark” given by this professor in his carreer… ). Simply said, nothing close to any miracle… neither German nor US…
3) The development not only of Europe but of US and thus implicitly even that of China (since it largely made its fortunes by selling ot the US) was built upon loans, i.e. a promise, or downright said “borrowing from future generations”, something which happened at a slower rate previously and which overall explains the rapid development that Europe and US saw in the 19th and 20th century and the post-WWII boom with the highest development rate that humanity ever saw (i.e. = a significant percentage of the world numbering multipliple times past world populations got a loan from future generations…. If you can get this…).
5) I know less for the USSR than the (but I imagine similar things for the) US for which I know that it got back multiple times what it gave in Europe back in the 1940s. A primary way to get back this money was to force all oil selling countries trade oil in dollars, thus force Europe buy with “real value” the US dollar that was finctional (i.e. simply said, paper printed in a printer) so as to buy oil. Note that after 80 years of Europe buying from Middle East (US buys little from Middle East, less than 5% of its oil! How about that?), there is not a single pipeline (everything moves with ships, ha!), while USSR had built a dense network of pipelines for feeding minor countries such as Poland, Chechoslovakia and Hungary, in less than 50 years. It can’t be more obvious.
6) Europe could as well continue to protect its economies and down to the basics that is in its own interest since it imports much of its energy (thus it will anyway have some disadvantage in pricing). US knows very well how to protect its own markets selectively, where it things it is useful. The biggest example is the European GPS which is not yet up there while it should be working in 2008 (and the reason is not technical, nor any disagreement among EU members apart the odd case of Britain, anyway an obvious case…). Not to mention that it has the US army working for civilian companies that battle with EU interests (Echelon… does it remind you anything) – if the army’s involvement in pure business is not protectionism then what is protectionism at the end?
7) If both US and EU return to economies based on productivity, US will collapse long before the EU thus it would be much in the interest of the EU to do so no point in speaking about EU social level of living or Europeans living beyond their means. Note down please that the society that lives multiple times beyond their means is the US primarily, far above anyone else. You only need to measure consumption per household (let alone the rest…) to understand that countries with a superior average living standard than the US one have households that consume on average less than 50% and down to multiple times less than what what the average US household consumes as well as producing in an analogous manner much less garbage… you have to refer to the numbers to realise the desperate picture of the US economy/society to understand that Europe in these terms you added in the discussion is in fact much healthier (not that it is completely healthy of course). The answer is easy, most Americans say “Yes but we got the weapons, we protect you”… well if Europeans say one day “That is ok, we have our own capacity to destroy – and then, we might consider Russian protection one day too… “ the question is answered shortly.
8) With an independent EU, energy selection would be considerably unhindered and thus the EU would have mainly to be occupied with its production output and selling to the world without having first to consult anyone. With EU alone, US becomes “uninteresting”, it will be just a large country like Canada, Australia or Brazil… Eu will be dealing mainly with Russia which has some of its basic interests tightly aligned with the health of the EU economy for the simple reason that if EU is ok it will buy Russian energy output in a win win situation. Don’t you understand that this is one huge parameter of the issue?
Some few random points and the whole picture changes isn’t it?
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The current situation in Greece is deeply upsetting. Having just returned from the country, I found everyone to be in a rather subdued mood, probably waiting for things to happen because Greeks won't face any repercussions till a few months time at least.
However, instead of playing the blame game the whole situation points to how certain things are both European and Greek failures. It's true Greeks always acted like Europe's spoiled children thinking they richly deserved everything because the civilisation created by their ancestors has given birth to what came to be deemed the European one. This is an illusion Greeks feel in love with created by politicians who used rhetoric to manipulate the voters. However, that meant that Greeks thought they were all about rights and no obligations whatsoever.
I think there is some serious growing-up to be done. You cannot squander European tax-payers' money without any consequences and it would probably be better if Greece did not ask for money from the EU, or if they did it should come at a high price. Only then would they set a good example for a change and they could probably claim that the 'European way of life' owes something to them. Being part of a coalition like the EU is equally about giving and not just receiving.
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bob_u,
Nik is an ordinary Greek man, not their government, and I don't see him asking the EU for money help.
What he constantly expresses here he'd want is tougher EU controls on the Greek financial system, namely that someone does something that their clans in power don't siphon country's wealth off away, and he wants help with fighting corruption in Greece.
That's not "give us more money" request, but a far more difficult request.
But he says they are un-capable of dealing with it from within, don't you see.
Next, what's so "cold war" in his requests? Greece is part of the EU, it is normal, in my Russian eye as min. to ask the members of the union one is in to step up for them in their plight with Turkey - a non-EU member.
Greece is also part of NATO - how is it that NATO allowed for a territorial split between their members, Turkey and Greece? I don't know much about NATO, but isn't it, prohibited, or something, to attack member NATO countries each other, as minimum?
The 3rd thing Nick clearly wants is ability for Greece to earn more money, by making use of int'l contracts - with Russia on energy, with China on ports, and overall Nik wants their islands to have 12 mile zone to be used by the Greeks better.
What's so un-practical in his demands?
Russia would definietly ask to be excused :o))) out of "help" with Greek corruption and fin. controls - we are lousy in it ourselves, and can't help in any way whatsoever. This is best done by the EU.
But on other points yes we can help. Why the EU won't is beyond me, Greece can count on help from union members in their conflict with Turkey, simply because they are in and Tukey isn't. And should be able to count on NATO members help within NATO, in the same Turkey business.
So indeed addressing Russia for help in this respect is very very last resource, of which we ourselves would never think because Greece is a part of a economic unit and of a military unit as it is, beyond us entirely. Why their normal union resources are failing - why - by the way?
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The European Way of Life is something that doesn't sit well with investors and bankers...aside from corrupt governments, which they do like. This idea that the citizen and worker should have some rights and benefits just seems to undermine the profit lines. As profits sore in the world of financial services and everyone else lives worries the big boys would like to further undermine the middle class. This is very stupid on their part, but they are seeking power and that doesn't require brains. When they are successful in twisting the arms of the elected and further erode the middle classes in Europe the people will tire of their abuse and things will change. You want to believe they are smart but what they are is ruthless.
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Jukka (34) said "...Common auditing of accounts for European states, Yes."
I do not see why an organization that has been unable to audit its own accounts for over decade should be trusted to audit anyone else's accounts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7092102.stm
However if eurozone countries want such as increase in EU power over eurozone countries then there could be a basis for a negotiated agreement with the UK. i.e. increased Brussels powers to audit the accounts of Eurozone members only in return for the end of EU power over the UK in employment and social policy.
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Maybe it is time that the EU properly re-looked at itself and went to the people to find out their views. I do not believe that this is something they have properly done. At the moment, member states get away with corruption, but are they doing that because the heart of the problem is Brussels?
Being honest here, I have to say that I think that as Europe stands, it is no good, for anyone. We are most definately not a continent where one size can fit all, and to think of it, lifestyles are very different. For instance, in Germany, there is a heavy emphasis on hard work through the day, on getting up early and doing this, whereas in Spain and Italy, there is not this emphasis. It is partially in this view that I see the Euro as unsustainable over a long period (more than 15-20 years). I can, in the future see us using French Francs, Deutschmarks and Dutch Guilders again.
I am not too sure if the EU reflects this properly, or if trying to match the two together is the right thing. A North European Union comprised of Germany, The Netherlands, Scandanavia and possibly the UK and Ireland, of countries that do share at least something, would be one way around it, however, while not being especially pro-EU, I can respect that they are trying to bring things up for the whole continent.
Needless to say, this means that we need to have a look into the way things are going as a whole bloc, and not just individual countries. Cut down on the corruption, put in necessary controls and work hard to ensure that problems are clamped down upon as soon as they appear.
We do not need an EU with all the red tape and percieved corruption that we have at this moment, nor do we need to have no organisation. Maybe we need to be looking in between the extremes and carefully looking at what will work, what we can manage and work as a continent to solve these disputes and problems. Personally, I would not know where to start, being still a student on year abroad (thus having experience of the German way of life as well as my own (British)), but we do have some brilliant minds around who could start us on the right track. Being British is a great thing, and it is nice to have national pride and the affairs of our country managed from London, but we at least need to work with other countries. Remember how bloody the first half of the 20th century was. Remember how the countries then were constantly at odds. Do we want that again?
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Greece has no say in whether or not it will get "bailed out" by the richer EU countries. It is they who will decide. Normally the attitude would be let them go to hell. But the EU runs a grave risk. First is the unknown impact default on Greek bonds would have directly on the Euro. Markets hate uncertainty and where the process would end seeing Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and Italy down the road there might be a rush to the exit immediately. Then there is the impact social unrest and political instability could have on Greece and the impact that could have on the Euro as fears this chaos could spread to other nations that might default rattle the currency markets. This secondary effect could also cause a rush for the exit. The problem is that once this happens, once the process starts, the EU can't suddenly say wait a minute, we'd better do something to fix it because by then it will be too late. There won't be any going back, no second chance. Those countries are caught between a rock and a hard place as we say here.
Where would the money go? There are several candidates. The most obvious flight to quality is the US dollar. The US will remain politically and socially stable although there could be inflation and devaluation down the road. Still that is the lesser of the risks and doesn't appear to be in the offing any time soon. In fact the US dollar looks to be set to rally. The Swiss franc is an obvious choice. As long as there are people with ill gotten gains to be guarded, Switzerland will be a safe place to put money. Swiss francs have always been a safe hedge against uncertainty. The only risk is that somehow European chaos will spread to Switzerland but I don't think so. Then there is the Japanese yen. A very strong currency even through its recent long long recession. But Japan has even more debt relative to the size of its economy than the US, is also export driven and so dependent on other countries, has an aging population, and so has its own set of risks. But Japan also looks relatively much safer for now than Europe. Gold is very risky. Gold is often a good hedge against inflation. But we may still be in deflationary times. Gold could go down. In deflation, the place to be in is cash, but it's a question of which cash.
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MAII
I partly agree with your analysis.
However here
"That level will force Europe to lower it standard of living hugely. And this brings into question the entire concept of a European Union."
is where we differ.
The Union is now more necessary than ever. Otherwise there will be no more real leverage internationally.
But yes, the post war generation has lived the most comfortable lives Europeans ever. My generation 1980+ has it much more difficult.
However, I kinda like it. As they say in Germany: "Viel Feind, Viel Ehr"
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Mr. Hewitt, "the Euro is wounded". Really? Do you even know at what exchange rate vs the dollar the Euro started at it's launch? And that it shortly after dropped to about 65% of it's current value (vs dollar)? No, the Euro is still far too strong and needs to come down much further, that's in the interest of countries that are net exporters. I hope that Germany, France, Holland stick to their current position of letting Greece clean-up their budgets. And if in the meantime the Euro further declines, then that's a very welcome fringe benefit.
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Gh;
"The Union is now more necessary than ever. Otherwise there will be no more real leverage internationally."
It never had any. It has none now. It can't even get past the receptionist to see President Obama. It depends on hostile Russia and the unstable middle east for its oil and other energy. Its sources of natural resources are being bought up buy China who is outbidding it. Its technology is far inferior to America's and Japan's. It's manufacturing sector is far underpriced by China. Its concerns about climate change ingored by the largest producers of CO2 China and the US. Its agriculture is uncompetitive and can barely survive even with massive subsidies. Its credibility with America is gone, America's good will a faint memory Europe deliberately disolved. Corrupt, inefficient, self indulgent, self delusional, it is now financially bankrupt. The party is over. All that's left behind is a mess nobody want to clean up. Cold hard reality will finally shine in as the walls crumble all around.
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The time is coming when the Governments of Germany, France, and the UK among others will have to have a serious two way conversation with their people they've avoided for all these years. If the governments resist and will not engage in a lot of truth telling, confessing what they have committed their people to, what they propose to do next, and seek their genuine approval for once, then these populations will start the conversation en mass in the streets. It won't just be the Greeks or Portugese or Spaniards who will be out marching trying to be heard by their leaders. Europe is on the eve of coming unglued at the seams. It hasn't faced a crisis like this since the 1930s and we know how that one worked out.
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@46 MarcusAureliusII and hopefully the US leaders will tell their people the truth about the monsterdeficit and it's consequences, namely that the USA is becoming a puppet of it's biggest creditor, China
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@Freeborn John, I had promised myself some time ago not to respond anymore to your monotonic, hyped, nationalistic messages, but I'm weak again. Two things: I lived in the UK and the USA to have learned that what you write about giving children the same start point is pure nonsense; Second, after the glory of the Rhineland model and then the Anglo-Saxon capitalism, nowadays the most successful model is clearly the Chines state controlled capitalism.
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I think Germany, France, maybe Holland should be preparing contingency plans for the rapid dissolution of the Eurodollar. That currency may be as good as dead already. Dissolution and termination of all inter-EU commitments would give the stronger countries a chance to survive. They cculd use what resources they have left as a kind of European Marshall Plan to provide humanitarian aid to the weaker countries until they recover on a far more realistic basis in line with their own economic fundimentals. Otherwise they may all go down together with the ship and they will never recover from it. My hunch is that is what they will do though. Giving up the dream of a European superstate with one currency, one culture, one government will die very hard. I predict they will try to tough it out. It will be interesting to see if they are successful at it. Reality is breaking through, a new day is dawning.
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There is no commonality between Europeans other than they live within the continent of Europe and for the most part can now live anywhere they please in Europe.
The British are as different from the French as chalk and cheese and the Italians from Germans as diferent as saurkraut and chianti. It is nothing to be embarrased about as I say "Vive la difference!" and it is no worse nor better than the differences between the Scots, Welsh and English within the Disunited Kingdom.
Herman Van Rompuy, in speaking of a "european way of life", is merely seeing that the crisis enveloping the Euro and the global recession is damaging the EU irreparably as the individual nations will not only cut back on the bloated national welfare and public service expenditures over the next few years but must, inevitably, see the EU as a luxury that can no longer be afforded by the net contributing nations.
With the demise of the EU dream the EUrocrats will lose their vision for the future which always was a federal government that would manage the lives of 600million 'europeans' . . . a collective name for disparate tribes and disparate peoples who are neither alike nor even similar in the ways the live their lives.
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For over thirty years I have known that the "EU" and its predecessors were rubbish.
The present situation has taught me that it is even worse than I thought.
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The "EU" is a sick, megalomaniacs castle built on the sand of lies. A sort of Neuschwanstein built on the Goodwin Sands.
Not quite. Neuschwanstein has some value.
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"Did Goldman Sachs help Britain hide its debts too? "
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/edmundconway/100003757/did-goldman-sachs-help-britain-hide-its-debts-too/
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One of the ironies of all this is the light it puts on the constant harangue Europeans ranted chastising Americans for not having national health insurance. Americans protested that they couldn't afford it. Now even without the burden of militarily defending Western Europe and the civilized world forcing Americans to shoulder most of the financial burden, it's obvious that neither can Europe.
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oleNik
Your protest reminds me of one of our southern neighbors, Mr. Chavez. He insist that American aid to Haiti is just a cover up for invasion and take over. (yea and he's proven to be a financial wiz as well). Personally I think a lot of you people watch to many of the Hollywood conspiracy theory movies. You make the statement:
'to seek protection in a geopolitically sensitive region since it had been under continuous attack by its own “ally”, the US.'
What the hell are you talking about? You offer no proof just that you leave it up to the rest of us to research how it is so. What's wrong with trying to be friends with Greece and Turkey. It seems you hope to gather around you an armed camp to face down the Turks and US. (wonder whose side the Macedonians would take. Now that would be ironic wouldn't it.)I say it comes as a surprise to me and I'm sure other Americans that we are your enemy. I've always rooted for the "300 plus a few" who had that gig a few thousand year ago. I must re-evaluate my thinking.
No one is holding a gun to your head to stay in NATO. Heck, the French go and come all the time. I can't say why you're in trouble, I can say that if the US continues to spend more than it takes in we'll be in same predicament. If that happens I won't blame our "ally" the Greeks.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8516730.stm
"Mr Papaconstantinou's comments also came after the European Union (EU) statistics agency Eurostat said on Monday that Greece falsified data last year to hide the extent of its debts."
So why have these people not resigned or been sacked? (Greek finance minister and PM)?
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"Because, with the acquiescence of Brussels, Greece massaged its figures to join the euro. Then it fiddled the accounts. "
So the "EU" institutions don't work either! What a surprise!
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"A lot of Greeks I spoke to last week want the pain to be shared. They see it as part of belonging to the European Union."
That means they want the Brits and the Germans to pay for it. The Brits have had 37 years of pain and misery because of the "EU". We need a break, not more rubbish.
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"Now the relatively new President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, has begun speaking of a "European way of life". He fears it is under threat."
His isn't. He is right in the middle of the "EU" Gravy Train.
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MAII
You are wrongly using the term Eurodollar. Google it. There is nothing "European" about it.
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GREECE is the mother of all Europe.
In WW2 it fought off the Italians, and caused the failure of the German invasion of Russia (taking huge German NASI (z cap wudnt wrk)) resources away.
We can thank Greece for the failure of the NASI invasion of Russia.
And now, nothing is to be done????? (the seat of reason, science, and Western thought)???? Nothing for?? (they fudged a little too much ..this first time?
Once and you are gone?? (if u r "2 small to succeed?") hmmmmmm.
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Do something "European"
forget pride of place--superpower...
Save Greece and go to the local museums:)!!!
be European and Humane!!
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Mr Van Rompuy has forgotten that there is a Deutsche Mark way of life and a Drachma way of life. No one forced Greece to join the Euro. Greece has no choice.
Inside the Euro it is a case of follow the club rules.
Leave the Euro, very soft currency (drachma) and IMF bail out with even worse consequences!
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David;
"GREECE is the mother of all Europe.
In WW2 it fought off the Italians, and caused the failure of the German invasion of Russia (taking huge German NASI (z cap wudnt wrk)) resources away.
We can thank Greece for the failure of the NASI invasion of Russia."
I think the Red Army would have to disagree with you on that one. Perhaps WebAlice could explain it to you...only don't stand within firing range of her when she does :-) The Germans would probably tell you it was the Russian winter that did them in. Napoleon would probably tell you the same if he could.
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Where angels fear to tread,
fools soon follow, Marcus
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me the fool not you, WA.
But it is true that Germany was diverted by Greece and Yugoslavian revolt during 1943--they opposed the NASIs.
And Italy..sorry Italians...was not up to conquering Greece in WW2.
So, Germany had to invade South to secure its belly,
Sorry WA,
But, possibly the Greek holdout did help you:)
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Thank you, MA. I am in peaceful, philosophical moods tonight, so David will live :o)))))
I guess he just wanted to say, figuratively (VERY figuratively) that ?
"one snow eh? star? a piece of white stuff? :o)))) - is not yet - snowfall, is not yet snow-fall
And one rain droplet - is not yet rain!"
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Britain also was a hero here helping the Greeks...stall the German assault.
Read the British book..something...
and the same TV series starring Emma Thompson and Kenneth Branaugh on BBC???
They were stranded in Yugoslavia, then Greece...there was a Russian friend?
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Look at the Russian figure skaters, WA,
They are so artistic, :))))
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MarcusAurelius,
In relation to No.45
You really do not like the EU at all!
The EU is all too frequently ignored by the American media where most Americans get their information from....are we seen as a threat or something?
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IMMIGRATION IS WHY EUROPE IS IN THE MESS ITS IN. EUROPE WILL BE PART OF THE MIDDLE EAST SOON.
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Dave, what do you mean "look at"? I thought it hasn't started yet? But at 4 am in the Moscow morning?
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I'm not quite sure why you think slashing public spending is politically unimaginable in the UK. I suspect a large number of UK voters would be very pleased to see a huge cutback in public sector wastage.
The total tax take is now somewhere around 50% higher than it was in 1997 but public services are no better. Sure, we've got lots of managers wielding clipboards and measuring everything and we've got qualifications thrown around like confetti but we've still got kids leaving school knowing their rights inside out and backwards but unable to add up or write a letter without reverting to text speak.
I don't honestly think you'd find much opposition among those who pay taxes to a substantial overhaul of the benefits system that allows pensioners to freeze to death while making sure the teenage mother with six kids doesn't have to do without Ugg boots and cigarettes.
So on that basis we could cut the total tax take by 33%, back to 1997 levels, and not see a meaningful reduction in public services. Or we could take the top 33% and use it to start repaying our monstrous debts.
Either way such significant cutbacks are entirely imaginable in the UK, and I can't believe I'm the only person who would dearly like to see them.
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David, all Europe is good people. That is why we had "12 tongues" besieging St.Petersburg.
A sure sign Russia can count on Europe :o)))) come anything :o))))
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yes ..:O)))) (got this frm you)
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it was a joke..look away look away...olympics are fun without the fan... (w/o go usa!)... fare..
but I do appreciate it from others--I rooted for China in Beijing Olympics..I'm neurotic sometimes...
since LA Olympics I've become jaded bout "USA USA"...lol...but deep down Im chuffed. (truly)
sometimes in winter I root for France HA!!! I like Les Francais peoples.
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David, get focused. Important things are these:
http://www.vancouver2010.com/olympic-news/n/news/afp-news/figure-skating--plushenko-steps-up-as-style-battle-looms_278228lH.html
Your US judge - an ex-judge - who will not be judging - sent 60 e-mails to current, working, figure-skating judges (some of who will work in the tournament), urging his ex-colleagues to judge "European men skaters stricter and pay more attention to connecting elements than to jumps".
That was directed against our trio - Plushenko - Joubert -
Lambiel - the three top boys in figure-skating in the recent European championship.
The Canadian site above echo-s this, even calls the European style "the old style", while "the new one" is American-Canadian.
This is bt, the difference between "styles" LOL is that the European trio jumps the four jumps and American-Canadian boys avoid it.
Because the system of getting points was for years being changed and changed to under-cut Russians, - which now affects European boys other - who were growing in competeing with Russians and had to learn to do what Russians do.
So it is European style indeed by now - to do complex risky jumps. Mastered by all entirely on this continent.
The current system adds points for complex jumps - but if you lose one - you lose so much that it's better you never risked it, in teh first place. This is the system to punish risk in men's skating, literally.
For years and years the powerful sports committees were changing the system of getting scores, with the only aim in mind - to end Russian monopoly in ice-skating. In men's skating and in pairs' skating alike.
Making stupid and easy elements count more than beautiful and risky ones.
The female skating is hell knows what enetirely by now, filled with millions of small details that the skaters have to do, by obligation, it became a set of technical crap, in which skaters have no room no lee way left to express themselves, and that's why the pairs' skating became so un-watchable and not art as it used to be before.
As the pairs' skaters comment themselves "what we only do not now, nearly stand upside down on our ears". This is millions of stupid small details, that's what the programmes are filled with now.
Figure-skating is art, not sport. That's how Russians view it and that's why we excelled. To put in art between these technical small crappy detilas you get very boarded up and limited, fenced.
If you have any doubts that ice-skating is art - see how it is judged. Like art, not like sport. Purely subjective grades, not metres, length, speed, targets, no clear book-marks still, in spite of all the - seemingly - "credits" system.
And it is very bad the number of judges in figure-skating is reduced by these Games to 5 judges. It is not objective, just 5 countries judge.
Used to be 12 before, or something, 10, 12, 14 - never just 5 as it is now.
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i believe it...its all nationalistic...exhibitions are best sometime.
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remember
the backlash against him will help your skaters...
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IHOP!
"You really do not like the EU at all!"
Quite the opposite, it's great competing agaist it. I just have no respect for it. I think it's nearly finished.
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WA
I copied and pasted other link to desktop
watching pairs now ..orob not live but matbe
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R U talking the EURO down, Marcus? lol
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WA;
Just tuned in.
Wow! The Americans were fantastic. Evidently they had a freak mistake on the triple toe loop in the short program, perhaps they'll catch up. 105.07
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GO TO CNN SITE FOR UP TO DATE SPOILERS..THO BBC MAY HAVE CURRENT TALLIES 2, WA & mARCUS
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Yes, boys, I'm watching :o))
The second US pair now.
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114.06
I thought they were very good but I liked the other Americans better. Very good lifts according to the announcer. Both American pairs danced to Russian music WA. The first pair to Scherezade, the second to Rach 2.
Shen and Zhou coming up later.
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CIAO FOR NOW
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Yes I also liked the second US pair better. Who didn't? :o) Judges were lavish as well. I am absolutely falling off the chair in the kitchen. 6:07 here.
MA I hope you've seen the French pair , that is Canadian, that is she danced for Britain as well, and lived in the USA :o))) the only African pair - gliding. Coach Sergey Zaitsev. :o)
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I thought the Russian pair wasn't so good. Graceful but they were not well coordinated with each other. The girl fell once, almost fell a couple of other times. Some parts were very good but much was just ordinary. The announcer says they get more points for accomplishments in the second half because they are tired.
106.96
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Yo Alice
You ever sleep?
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No.
Mavrelius, that first Russian pair are youngsters un-known, from Perm (good Perm school) but they were 3rd in the country's competition suddenly that's why got here. She is good (the skinny girl in red) but just turned 16; all ahead for them. We are glad for them, alright.
Canadians did nothing special worthy 115.
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So we've seen the best Chinese pair (by Chinese delegation own anticipations) :o))))
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One thing Vysotsky skipped to put up a song about (and Pushkin a verse), (and Chaikovsky an opera) :o))) is ice-skating.
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The Canadian woman fell on the first jump a triple sowkow and almost fell twice more.
The Chinese pair were not that good. The man fell on the first jump. The anouncer said they were not very graceful or musical. then the score. They got 126 and are in first place.
The Russian girl in red fell on her first jump and the man almost fell right after. Seemed to me the rest was ho hum. Didn't catch their score but are in second place
Manyh of us think these are rigged, very political, not fair at all.
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Two more Canadians in brown, the woman fell on one jump and nearly fell on two others. Bad landings. The man did better. 121.75 Outrageous.
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The ones who fell yest (the boy) fell today again (the girl :o))))
Mavrelius, I don't know what you are writing :o)))) but while they are hearty to look at, how to say, they are hearty. We live on.
Saw today a set of small vodka glasses on sale, in a package done in traditional toasts :o)
One was "the life consists not of the days that passed but of the past days that you remember. :o) So, let's drink for more of such days ! approx. something. :o)
Also, "Apartment - noll, dacha - noll, (0), a car - noll, money - noll, friends - 1.
So, let's drink for us always to have that "1" , with all the zeros following after !":o)
Oh it gets serious now.
The more suitable toast now is
"To the alcoholism - (we announce) - a fight!
So, let's drink, before the battle!
:o))))
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I love your comment, WA
To the alcoholism, we fight,
So, let's drink before the battle:)
Funny and realistic view
Canadians seem to be favorites for medals from now on in everything..derr (dang):)))
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Germans are in first place with 134 even though the man fell on a double axle. They still got 134.
First chinese pair in red skated excellently. Beautiful performance. Pang and Tong 141.61, first place ahead of the Germans now. Shen and Zhou next.
Top notch performance. One poor lift. Announcer says a lot of little errors too. Otherwise excellent. Do they get the gold?
139.91, they won the gold.
Sorray WA, Russia did not win a medal this time. Have another drink.
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All fair. Except unclear which reasons to live stayed. "this time" - first time in 46 years.
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Herbert van Rompoy obviously makes comparisons with the USA, when he speaks about the “European way of life”. First of all the political left in Europe separate it from USA, but certain things which in practice is never discussed here, because politics is defined in a quite narrow way, play quite very different in Europe and USA, namely such things that are usually the subject of the humanities.
The following can be considered as clues to the identity of Europe or constituents of the “European way of life”:
1 Secularization
2 The state before the market
3 Solidarity before performance
4 Scepticism towards technology
5 Consciousness about the paradoxes of progress
6 Rejection of the right of the stronger
7 Peace as objective on the background of historical experiences with losses
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Ugh, I have now had the first cup of coffee. Sorry about the word processing...
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Mathiasen,
Have yourself a few more cups of STRONG coffee and then try to explain what the hell you are talking about.
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#103. Islandhopper1,
I'm afraid it will be very time consuming. As I stated these are clues, and I suggest you consider the list as questions for further consideration.
If you are interested in discussions you should go for articles in major European newspapers and magazines, or books from European intellectuals such as Jacques Derrida, Umberto Eco or Jürgen Habermas.
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jon_toronto wrote:
"This has just as much or little meaning in the US as anywhere else. I hardly think that bathhouse orgies in San Francisco and gun-toting blacks-lynching evolution-denialism in Tallahassee are part of the same "way of life". Politicians use the phrase because the everyone in the audience thinks that it refers to *their* own way of life."
What does such extreme behavior have to do with America not having a "way of life" in comparison to so-called Europe.
One would have to be quite clueless to think that Europe is similar in any way to what America is, a country with a strong common culture and identity, or a "way of life."
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SuperJulianR wrote:
"Interesting point, but, actually I think that there is such a thing as a European way of life - the UK way of life has far more in common with our European neighbours, especially Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, than any of us/them have with the US."
Considering that language, especially as it relates to relations with other countries, is the most influential and defining part of any culture I'd say you fail on the language part.
"Religion and the politics of health care (or rather the total lack of it for 36 million of their own citizens in the US) should be proof of that; not to speak of far more common history between us and our near nieghbours than our schools will ever allow our childen to learn about."
Actually, the number of Americans that can not afford health insurance is a tiny number in comparison to anything near your out of the hat "36 million."
The rest of the numbers thrown around include illegal immigrants that do not belong in the country and should be sent back to their countries asap, and Americans that choose to not have health insurance even though they can afford it.
The obsession many of you people in European countries have about promoting your government health care never ceases to amuse me.
While America may be more religious in practice than the UK the most important aspects of religion, such as common moral values, still remain as defining elements in both cultures.
That all said, I don't desire a more closer relationship with the UK for the simple reasons being that too many people in the UK are negative, pessimistic, cynical and downright miserable, not to mention the obvious differences in politics and views towards government control, redistribution of wealth and handouts, in other words, socialism. Those are the last things America needs.
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Dan Allen wrote:
"Those of you comparing this to the USA might want to realize that in the USA, states subsidize one another. New York for instance gives $2 to the Federal Gov't for every $1 it gets back, while in the poorer states it's the reverse. And since the gov't controls transfers in such a fashion, there are no rigid one-size-fits-all price controls. When the USA becomes uncompetitive and falls behind in a market, they print money. In the Eurozone, there is a lot of tight-fistedness, and the belief is that you can't devalue in order to preserve low interest rates. But that doesn't benefit undiversified countries like Greece that rely on tourism and shipping (two services that do not do well in a recession). They can't devalue to improve competitiveness. The net result: it's like the Alabamans having to pay Manhattan, NY prices for food and shelter but without the subsidies. So, don't compare the situation to the USA opening the borders to Mexico. American states already make such transfers. I mean, citing the fact that .8% of your taxpayer funds go somewhere else is not going to win sympathy anywhere."
People in Europe shouldn't be trying to compare with America anyway for the simple fact that America is a country and so-called Europe is a group of very different countries that power hungry people in Europe want to make into a country.
Most Americans don't have a problem with poorer states getting help when needed as they are simply helping out their fellow Americans. You don't have that kind of unity and bond of culture and identity in Europe that would make it easy to do such a thing.
"You have two choices: integrate your economies, or chuck those countries out of the EU and be satisfied with small markets for your industries and occasional turbulence (i.e. strife) from the poor countries on your periphery. You know, if the rest of the world had this attitude about Europe and especially Germany after World War 2, where would you be today? We saw what a basket case Germany became in the interwar period. Was that your future?"
To truly "integrate" their economies they will have to integrate their many different cultures into one "way of life" or common culture and identity. And just on the language side that would be impossible.
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David wrote:
"And now, nothing is to be done????? (the seat of reason, science, and Western thought)???? Nothing for?? (they fudged a little too much ..this first time?"
Ancient Greece and all the good that came out of it is certainly nothing like the Greece of today. In many ways the mentality there is one of a corrupt and backward third world country, except that it is in Europe.
It's hard to keep a straight face reading "the seat of reason, science, and Western thought." No, that was certainly another country thousands of years ago on the same property. :)
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#107
'Most Americans don't have a problem with poorer states getting help when needed as they are simply helping out their fellow Americans. You don't have that kind of unity and bond of culture and identity in Europe that would make it easy to do such a thing.'
Most Europeans would not have a problem in principle with helping out people in a poorer country. After all, when the ex-Eastern-bloc countries joined the EU a few years ago it was fairly obvious that the subsidies would be going from West to East rather than in the other direction. However, patience has its limits, and the people in the better organised economies can be forgiven for wanting a few strings to be tied to any loans or bailouts - like, for example, demanding some semblance of a competently run economy.
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Under what rock has Herman Van Rompuy and Manuel Barroso been sleeping? What European way of life? Preserve the status quo? or the infighting? The EU instead of having one common goal there are 27 goals and it looks like each of the 27 try to undermine whoever they can for their own national benefit.
@ Wonthillian #109: If you think that the east Europeans did so well after entering the EU think again and visit Latvia first then Belarusia second to see the difference, then wake up and eat some humble pie. The only one that benefited from the East Europeans join the EU were Danish and Swedish banks, not the 25% unemployed that have no hope in hell of ever paying their debts.
If the Gernams & the Finns thought that the word "union" means buy our cars and mobile phones tarrif free and don't develop your own industries with out government help because our union says no state help. Without any obligation then they've been sleeping under the same rock as Herman Van Rompuy and Manuel Barroso.
Some time I really wonder if my fellow British Europhobes are the only that actually got it right. A union without solidarity is a useless union and we should seriously think if it worth having at all or if we are not all better off going our own ways and have our own "ways of life" let all of us 27 have what is best for us and let the companies make thinks 27 different ways and convert it to 27 different currencies.
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AllenT2 @ 106
The figure of 36 million uninsured Americans is obviously only an estimate but has been widely quoted over here, in connection with your President's attempt to get universal healthcare reforms through.
"...and Americans that choose to not have health insurance even though they can afford it"
Do you include within this figure the Americans (even well paid middle class ones) who are forced to re-mortgage their homes, face re-possession and even bankruptcy because their insurers will not give them insurance cover, or are charging unreasonably large excesses - all because they have the misfortune to have a family member who suffers from such ill health that the insurnace companies see them as a liability? People forced to choose between home and health care? Or is this all just a media myth? I would love to know.
Surely, it makes sense that all people - sick and healthy pay the same premiums, so that everyone can afford decent health care without unduly eating into living standards? - after all nobody chooses to be sick?
But then this gets to the root of the difference between Europe and US society and culture. There may be a big gap between rich and poor, the well to do may be able to buy better care, but in the end, no European country would allow the kind of brutal natural selection that Americans are fighting tooth and nail to keep.
And most Europeans - including the British - find it hypocritical to think it is too expensive to care for ones one citizens, but OK to pay Billions of Dollars to fight wars in the middle-east; hypocritical to fight for the rights of the unborn (anti-abortion) whilst neglecting the rights of those already born to proper life-preserving medical treatment.
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CA;
"The only one that benefited from the East Europeans join the EU were Danish and Swedish banks, not the 25% unemployed that have no hope in hell of ever paying their debts."
The joke is on the Danish and Swedish banks. It's not like when all those mortgages go into default they can simply pick those houses up and move them to Denmark and Sweden and put them on the market. Nor are there hordes of people with scads of money aching to move to Eastern Europe to buy them. There is actually no point in repossessing them as the houses themselves are a liability to the banks. By owning the houses, the banks would have to pay real estate taxes, insurance, and maintenance costs on them even if they are unoccupied. In most cases it would be better to just write them off as losses. But bankers aren't very smart people as they have proven so often in the recent past. So in all likelihood they will throw good money after bad.
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Gavin,
The comment that has summed it up for me about this Greek euro problem was made in the New York Times at the weekend by Nobel prize-winning economist Paul Krugman, who said:
"the real story behind the euromess lies not in the profligacy of politicians but in the arrogance of elites — specifically, the policy elites who pushed Europe into adopting a single currency well before the continent was ready for such an experiment."
Of course, some of us were saying this ten years ago when it was suggested that Britain should join - dismissed at the time by those elites gripped by the "hubris" Krugman goes on to describe as "Europe's fatal flaw".
The European Union is built entirely on such hubris, mated to outdated 1950s superstate ideology pursued in defiance of rational, practical reality or benefit to our continent.
I also can't understand this shock about hidden Greek debt. Many countries did this in order to just come close to meeting the euro 'rules' and finesse entry, ultimately on political grounds. I suggest a long hard look at Italy! Even the French were swapping billions of francs for transfers of pensions liabilities of public utilities.
It's astonishing how short our collective memories have become.
all the best,
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A way of life under threat, you bet!
12 Olympic games pair figure skating in Gold, now (the most offending of all positions) 4th place.
I don't know who about what, "the hanged man - about the rope" :o)))
Snow, space and figure skating - 3 whales of Russian "way of life".
I am afraid we are going to be less friendly and gracious during the next 4 years. Brace yourself.
Just fought off with difficulty the global warming now another trouble!
Nothing holy stayed in this world and if so we won't be good either - why suddenly, what for? This world is an un-fair goner, the chain of times has broken and all. An attempt at our sacred values.
Cornering Russians the most safe type of enterprising in the world granted.
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There is another monetary union in the world that many people ignore. This is the CFA Franc which has been used in some West African countries since 1946. Of course it is difficult to compare African and European economies but never-the-less the issue of a monetary union comprising divergent economies has cropped up repeatedly with the CFA.
The CFA depreciated from 1 CFA = 2 French francs in the 1940s to 1 CFA = 0.0.1 FF at the time the French franc was replaced by the Euro. However it is interesting that while the CFA has survived its membership has fluctuated quite a lot with countries leaving (and some later rejoining) for two reasons:
(i) Many countries left to create their own currency which generally depreciated against the CFA. Some of these countries, e.g. Guinea, Mali later rejoined at a significantly lower (e.g. 2:1) exchange rate indicating they were not competitive against other CFA members while they were outside the CFA. Greece would be in an equivalent category today in EMU.
(ii) Reunion left teh CFA-zone to use the French franc instead. Presumably Reunion, being far more affluent ($6000 per person) than most African states was reluctant to be in a currency union with less competitive economies when inflation and devaluation were inevitable. Germany might be the equivalent of Reunion in the eurozone today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFA_franc
I took a vacation in a CFA country once. It was an amazingly expensive place, especially considering that it was one of the poorest places on Earth. Supposedly the over strong CFA allowed an urban few to afford Western luxuries, while making the many in the countryside totally uncompetitive in world export markets for the only goods (agricultural ones) they could produce. During the entire trip i don't think i saw one factory or any other sign of the industrial age. Indeed i would say that the whole place was frozen in time with most people living a way of life that literally had not changed for 1000 years or more.
It is also quite apparent that the French-speaking African countries in the CFA-zone are on a lower level of economic development than English-speaking African countries that have floating currencies. Some of the English-speaking African countries have mineral wealth but even Zimbabwe appears to be well ahead of most CFA states (at least when seen from street level rather than economic statistics).
I wonder if the CFA-zone indicates the future of the Greek tourism industry inside EMU; a fly-by zone that one passes over en route to a more comfortable and affordable vacations elsewhere? After only 10 years of the Euro it getting quite common to see "Euro-free" holidays advertised in the UK, for example to Northern Cyprus, or Croatia and the Dalmatian coast instead.
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This may have been mentioned before, but how many other European countries can be relied upon to tell the truth ? Perhaps more questions should be asked of countries such as Belgium & France. I suspect the German government knows the true figures of its partners, but is concerned about the ramifications of too much honesty.
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CA @110
'If you think that the east Europeans did so well after entering the EU think again and visit Latvia first then Belarusia second to see the difference, then wake up and eat some humble pie.'
I think it is an established fact that the new Member States have been net recipients of EU funding. I'm not saying that this is wrong (quite the opposite) and I'm not suggesting that the inhabitants of Latvia or Belarusia are swimming in cash. My main point was to refute the allegations from the other side of the Atlantic that Europeans are unwilling to help each other out.
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The question of US health care is not our issue but since mentioned, one has to go to the core:
The US no matter if our dear interlocutors present it as "a nation" is anythign else but a nation. It was is and will remain is a union of businesses and corporations led by bankers. All the rest is air-talk. In the US there are various ethnic (they call them racial) divisions and down to the basics, the health-security issue is merely a side effect of these divisions.
Simply to put in the mind of the average (mainly white) American, a national security system means that he is going to contribute for the health care of black, Mexican and half-caste people i.e. the "lesser" people. No matter if people here will protest saying that there are many members of these communities that also are against the national security system (no doubt there are), the basic idea is that: no American wants to give a single penny for the wellfare of the weak of society: each has to make it on its own. Pay attention: it is not any US particular way of thinking. It is actually a way of thinking that increasingly finds its way in EU too given the number of immigrants (especially the illegal ones). In Greece for example citizens (up to now 98% Greeks - that is forced, by whom I do not know, to radically change) are wondering why the state has to give healthcare for free to any tormented soul that found its way illegally in the country (that has no job to give) and how people having worked 1 month only can fully use that to treat a family of 1 (or more!) wifes and 3 to 5 children... Now, if these people become citizens, then the talk will turn at the US level: privitisation of healthcare. Already the talk about privitisation of educational system is underway and it is amazingly pushed by the right-wing people (anciently the fierce supporters of state education), since the education has been abducted for the last 35 years by extra-left people and currently is used to deconstruct the whole society. Simply said, public school with 20 to 30% chidlren that do not know even the language and who often are extremely offensive to local children that often find themselves as a desperate minority in certain schools is crumbling, the standards are ground zero and even poor parents are selling their last pieces of land to choose a better beighbourhood and put their kid (they cannot afford to have more...) in an acceptable public school or if possible in a private. Simply said, there was a reduction of 30% to citizen pupils but the private schools instead of closing are opening and expanding.
Simply said, privitised health and social systems are usually a sign of societies lacking social cohesion.
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WA;
My post that "broke the rules" was a prediction that Shen and Zhou would win the gold for the wrong reasons. I think it was the way I said it that broke the rules. IMO the previous Chinese pair who won the silver medal had skated far more skillfully. The Russians did not skate well last night. From the look on Moskovina's face she knew it. It was amazing how many skaters fell especially on their first or second jump and still scored high. The method of awarding points seemed unfair and inconsistent leading to a lot of suspicions many Americans have always had about the fairness of how some Olympics competitions are scored. The American announcers were experts in figure skating and were able to point out many of the subtleties of each performance for the audience. Also a former American olympic figure skating coach was interviewed with his observations. There were some remarkable performaces that I think should have scored much higher, others which were badly overrated by the judges. Best to sit back and just enjoy all of the performances without worrying about who wins.
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In one program about the crisis in Greece on BBC last night, one economist said that among those who have high exposure and would suffer losses if Greece defaults are French, German, and Swiss banks. This makes it even more interesting. If the German government bails out Greece, the Germans will see that as a direct subsidy to these banks. And if they don't, the Swiss banks will likely make all hell break loose. You don't stiff Swiss banks without dire consequences. Also impact to the banks will hurt the French and German economies by tightening credit even more.
The EU has given Greece until mid March to demonstrate they are bringing their deficits to acceptable levels. And the consequences if they don't? This economist said that it's like saying "stop doing that and if you don't....I'll tell you again to stop doing that." No teeth behind any of this, the problem is the EU's more than it is Greece's since Greece will have serious problems whether they comply or not.
The whole thing might be a tempest in a teapot were it not for the other PIIGS. The one they most worry about seems to be Spain. It's just too big, a larger order of magnitude. Any way you slice it there will be hell to pay. The EU is proving what its worst critics claimed all along. There will be no denying it any longer when those debts come due whether they get paid or not. The question is not only will the Euro survive but will the EU in any recognizable form. This is why egomania is a form of insanity. All rational thought is rejected when it stands in the way of what those in control want to happen no matter how ill conceived the plan. What Europeans should keep in mind before they take to the streets is before the mud hit the fan, many if not most supported to it and even in Euroskeptical Britain there were hardly howling protests in the streets every day, just mumbling and grumbling about it.
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Wonttellyathen
"I think it is an established fact that the new Member States have been net recipients of EU funding. I'm not saying that this is wrong (quite the opposite) and I'm not suggesting that the inhabitants of Latvia or Belarusia are swimming in cash. My main point was to refute the allegations from the other side of the Atlantic that Europeans are unwilling to help each other out."
Of course the new member states are net recipients. From their point of view they were only too happy to have a new source of externally funded welfare, a handout from other countries now that the USSR was gone. From the point of view of the existing members, since the goal of the EU was to create an entity with a GDP and population larger than the USA's, the leaders committed other people's money in what seemed like a relatively modest amount and sold this snow job to Europeans as some sort of hypernationalism, a trick they always fall for. Those who objected were either never given a vote to reject it or when that vote was no in France and Holland were denied another chance at Lisbon which was the EU constitution in disguise. Ireland was forced to vote a second time on Lisbon so they would get it right.
We'll see just how willing the Europeans are to help each other out when they have to come up with some real money to save the PIIGS and their bank accounts are not so flush that they can slough it off as just having slightly less discretionary money to indulge their whims. Let's see their show of generousity when we are talking about real sacrifice. Want to make any bets what they'll do?
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MA @119, "best to sit not to worry". Well, you've got other anchors in life :o)))) that's why can say so lightly, we have selected few and this is one of them so another attitude.
Moskvina "face" don't tell me she didn't sleep the night over to be or not to be which is the triple or quadriple? toss of Kawaguti girl into the air, to be (to have been performed) as the first element of the Russian skaters programme. The quadriple would give us silver guaranteed as min., that's a 5th degree complexity rating, and unique to this pair in the world. She clearly didn't want the risk. Though played on the nerves of the coaches watching the morning training, made the Russian pair do the quadriple toss four times in a row :o))))) and they did all four times clean.
But this time our old Akela ? (that wolf, in the Maugli jungle book) "has missed".
She changed her mind AFTER the warm-up of the strongest skaters and BEFORE we took ice. Minutes before the start. Told them to cancel the quadriple toss (as announced in their programme) and do ordinary triple as the first element.
Kawaguti said her brains didn't have time to re-switch, from the normal routine (quadriple) to the triple. She had quadriple automated programmed :o)))) and fell in the simple triple toss landing. Over-rotated a bit :o)))), automatically. That was the end, 30 sec after they began.
In total, we lost the war on nerves, the psychological pressure.
Technically, Moskvina equipped this pair with the full, how to say, assortment and repertoir possible, all there is in the world figure-skating, in the 5 years she had Kawaguti, and 3.5 years she had them both trained as a pair.
But Russian hair raise up on end at the very word "Olympic games in Canada" - in terms of figure-skating, for it is not friendly Italy or anything. But the worst there can be possible in "collective memory" as someone said here above, for may be you've forgotten the scandal, with the second set of Golden medals in the previous Olympic games in Canada -issued post-factum by the "judges" - with the whole awarding ceremony repeated, and Berezhnaya-Sikharulidze made to stand nearby "another set" of "Golden medalists" on the pedestal - while I assure you no one in Russia forgot this pornography.
You've seen the short programme the day before yesterday - what is justifying the difference of 2 points between the German pair and Smirnov-Kawaguti? They were kicked back, and lost the nerve back then.
Next, for the free programme, they were put (put) (it's not "a draw", chances, but intentionally put the fourth in othe order from the last skating pai. Which meant they were to start the skating, ahead of all in the 4 strongest pairs, and didn't know the scores of the strongest who will skate after them. In such a lay-out, being 2 scores behind after the short - naturally there arose the question "to risk or not to risk", with the quadriple toss. Either you risk and win or you lose everything.
Moskvina did the worst - she didn't risk AND lost everything.
.
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@117 Wonthillian,
You either on purpose or by accident confuse EU funding for projects in the new EU states with the help the US federal government gives to its states.
a) The funding of new projects there helps us (UK), Germany, France, Holland etc. as the money comes back to us because apart from the local labour, the firms that undertake the works there are normaly from the west.
b) The USA federal government if there is a downturn in Florida or Alaska helps does not stop transfering funds for social security etc. Here in the EU we have no such mechanism, so you are comparing apples with oranges.
It goes back to my original point we don't have a "union" and the politicians are to blame. They should explain to their electorate what a "union" is i.e. both good an bad. I'm all pro-EU & pro-Euro but not the current smogesborg version, where every one things that there are only benefits and no obligation.
The Finns think they will only be able to sell Nokia phones and networks tarif free, the Germans think they will only be able to sell BMW's tarif free. Both run a tight monetary policy that rely on exports for demand as there is not that much internal demand for their products and when it comes to putting their hands in their pockets act if someone is trying to rob them :))
I don't think you will find the above attitude amongst the Americans
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To MarcusAureliusII (121):
No Marcus, EU money doesn't go for welfare, it goes to building of European states and societies. The reason why the EU does it, why net contributors do it, is because the more developed and productive you are, the harder and more costly it becomes to be more developed and more productive. However if you invest into a state and a society that isn't as developed and as productive as you are, you increase their productivity, and if you happen to trade much with them, having interlinked production networks, you become a co-beneficiary from the increase of productivity.
Lets make an obvious example.. Germany is in the middle of Europe, they have the worlds most developed motorway network, now if Germany wanted to increase the productivity of its industries should they A) invest money to make their motorway network even more advanced or B) invest money to their Eastern neighbors motorway networks so that they would have motorway networks? ...The answer is B. When Eastern European countries have motorways, road transit becomes much more quicker and reliable, which allows new business opportunities for the German firms to re-allocate and specialize their functions thus becoming more competitive and giving added boost to the German economy.
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Best comment that I have heard in a long time "Socialism is all right, until you run out of other people's money to spend"
How true for Greece & for GB!
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Re123: ChrisArta, correctly said. And I wish to add my questioning why on earth the EU is linked to "megalomany" to "egoism" and other such things when it is exactly the opposite: nations renderinng some part of their sovereignty to achieve some common goals. So an independent France or Germany or Britain alone in today's world thinking it is gonna do the same things it did last 50 years is less egoistic and less megalomaniac?
Put it good in your mind. The world you knew is finished. Today the likes of France, Germany and Britain will be increasigly marginalised and even US feels the pinch trying desperately to stop the inveitable: international commerce without their pumping and there you'd rather put an i instead of u.
And at last, stop judging a whole system that it took 50 years to built on tha basis of something completely different, just because there is a crisis. And stop referring to US, the US can simply print more plasmatic money and get away with it, the EU can do it to much less extend.
And start pinpointing the real weaknesses of the EU which are not of course the common currency and the common financial market but the lack of strategic vision in strictly political sense. The basic error of the EU is that it started doing it all inversely - i.e. starting from financial and social issues, when it had to start from the political and defense issues so as to have a respected voice in the world. That is the main weakness.
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WA;
"In total, we lost the war on nerves, the psychological pressure."
That's how Russia always loses.
Fisher versus Spasky. Fisher was by far the better chess player but he beat the Russians at their own psychological games as well. Commentators here said he was toying with Spasky and the Russian's psyches. That was what the Russians always had a reputation of doing with their chess opponents.
Reagan versus Gorbachev. Russians foolishly assumed they'd have to keep up with America in the nuclear arms race. The fell for the trap of bulding vast quantities of nuclear arms they didn't need. America couldn't possibly have defeated Russia in a nuclear war with arms Russia already had. The SDI antibalistic missile system would never have worked against ICBM. It still won't unless the antibalistic missiles have nuclear warheads themelves. But Russia had weapons in such large numbers it could not possibly be stopped. So the political and military contest was turned into a battle of the economies, a war Russia couldn't possibly win. Russia lost the cold war because it was financially bankrupt.
And now in ice skating. Trying to be conservative when there was so much talent out there competing against it, second guessing at the last minute. Afraid to take a risk suddenly when the real test of ability came. We call that gettng cold feet. You know, it's like when the groom doesn't show up for the wedding leaving the bride waiting at the altar. He's run away as fast and far as he can. Also in American vernacular, we call failure to perform at a critical moment when excellence the contentant is capable of "choking." That's what the Russians did, they choked. Choking is a sure sign of a born loser. They may win against far lesser opponents but when they are up against real talent, they lose every time.
Now compare the EU and the US. The EU will show its true colors. I don't know what the right move for them is or even if there is one but whatever it is if it exists at all, they won't make it. They will choke instead. Just watch and see.
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Nik 118:
It's lies and slanders about the USA like your posting above, one that is repeated countless times and not only goes unanswered by is believed by so many European that brings me to these blog sites. It is this kind of venomous poison, these kinds of outrageous distortions and accusations that has alienated Americans from Europeans.
Were it up to me, I'd pull the USA out of NATO today and have all our troops home by tomorrow. Greece and Turkey could fight over Crete or whatever else they wish to with clubs, spears, bows and arrows or F-16s for all I care. Why should it matter to me who wins now that the USSR no longer exists and neither will be ruled from Moscow?
Your jealousy and rage of the the success of a real democracy, not one limited to a few elite Athenians thousands of years ago is so obvious. Your country is now at the mercy of the Euroland nations whose only real interest is in themselves. If they bail Greece out this time, it will only be because they fear the consequences to their own economies if they don't, not because of any warm affections for Greece. Quite the opposite, they probably resent Greece for being a problem to them in the first place.
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"When they are up against real talent they lose every time"
Then, it appears, the "real talent" in sports pair figure skating made itself wait, for 46 years, and 12 Olympic Games in a row. Which I would call quite a time, for the "real talent". Real modesty.
Where was that "real talent" hiding, when Russia pulled the world figure skating ahead, as a locomotive?
And where was it hiding the last 20 years please, when Russian coaches emigrated post-Perestroyka (heavy-weights type Tarasova who trains your Lucichek), were training athelets worldwide?
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Marcus @ #127,
Sorry MA-II, but Fischer ended up as a nut-case, just like your other chess champion, Morphy. Spassky is still alive as a normal person, living his "European way of life" happily in France of all places. True, Fischer was the better player, but what good did it do to him in the end? He was the true embodiment of the chess competitor who wants "to crush the ego of the opponent". Spassky is not that way, and the other chess champions who had accomplishments beyond their chess career (e.g. Lasker and Euwe) are likewise. In the end, it amounts to distinguishing between socially likeable persons and diehard competitors. Take your pick.
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Re : 127: MarcusAureliusII
Marcus you said:
"In total, we lost the war on nerves, the psychological pressure."
That's how Russia always loses.
I say
? History says that Russians tend to win. Psychological pressure has nothing particular to do with Russians even when they are losing. I do not know anyone losing where psychological pressure has nothing to do. Not to mention the Anglosaxons (bad losers).
You commented on:
Fisher versus Spasky. Fisher was by far the better chess player but he beat the Russians at their own psychological games as well. Commentators here said he was toying with Spasky and the Russian's psyches. That was what the Russians always had a reputation of doing with their chess opponents.
Eeeee I happen to play chess, and such bull’s-waste we hear often. It goes withoutsaying that to Fisher on the overall was a better player than Spasky nothing less nothing more than that. By the way, does Fisher count for a US player?
You mentioned also
Reagan versus Gorbachev.
I say:
Russia was not bankrupt, the USSR communist system was bankrupt being a system imported by the west and imposed (no communist leader of the revolution was really any Russian afterall and all of them had a fantastic capacity to travel around the world and befriend bankers and investors alike….know your enemy…). And Russia could not have lost the cold war since this was one between USA and USSR. USSR was not Russia. Russia became a state in 1991. USA will gave to sort out this one now. Till now, US made many aggressive moves around Russia trying to exploit its post-USSR weaknesses but it seems it has been too slow as Russia has already woken up so US lately has been retracting as obviously it has been way too aggressive for its real capacities. Big example: Georgia. In Ukraine Russians did not need to do anything, Ukraine came back to them running, naturally (they had nothing to gain with Mr Soros…).
You mentioned
And now in ice skating.
I say
Hehe! We have lots of snow too in Greece (a very mountainous country) but we tend to leave all that for the bears… snow, mud and that smell that resembles dirty feet is not considered sexy in Greece and skating is seen as very much an effeminate past-time. If Russians like it is their problem but if they did not get any medals that has nothing to do with Gorby, Gorby has nothing to do with Russia losing, and Russia losing has nothing to do with Spasky vs. Ficher.
You said…!
You know, it's like when the groom doesn't show up for the wedding leaving the bride waiting at the altar.
I say:
Yeah… I know. I saw it last year in Georgia.
You said among others this one:
They may win against far lesser opponents but when they are up against real talent, they lose every time.
Sorry to who are you referring? US and Iraq? World’s 4th power? Remember?
You said:
Now compare the EU and the US. The EU will show its true colors. I don't know what the right move for them is or even if there is one but whatever it is if it exists at all, they won't make it. They will choke instead. Just watch and see.
I say:
I totally agree with you and you described it nicely. And that is the real shame of the EU.
You said:
It's lies and slanders about the USA like your posting above, one that is repeated countless times and not only goes unanswered by is believed by so many European that brings me to these blog sites. It is this kind of venomous poison, these kinds of outrageous distortions and accusations that has alienated Americans from Europeans.
I say:
Well why don’t you see it the other way. Is it strange that a higher number of people are taking their distances from the US? Take us Greeks for example. Back in the 1950 we were very pro-US. Not because of any help, that was minimal and did not do us any good. But we thought US, a country that shared some of out ideals would naturally be our natural ally. However, instead we have been treated more or less as unwanted, we have been manipulated, we have been put dictators (consecutive ones, cos the first chosen would not do the tricks), we have been militarily attacked by US (Britain first of all) in Cyprus, and no matter if NATO members, and our national space is being openly questioned by US that arms Turkey specifically for a war against Greece (unless US gives Turkey all that landing naval gear to attack Kurds in Iraq – I said this cos … you never know, you Americans suffer from geography…). We remain in NATO only because we are EU members (so a shift would be difficult to pass, there are repercussions) and because getting out we will be instantly attacked by US (via Turkey but it will be obviously US – Turkey alone cannot yield a war) prior to passing to an alliance with Russians. We do not view the Russians as any better, but right now they do seem a much more attractive choice than having to do with Americans.
You say:
Were it up to me, I'd pull the USA out of NATO today and have all our troops home by tomorrow. Greece and Turkey could fight over Crete or whatever else they wish to with clubs, spears, bows and arrows or F-16s for all I care. Why should it matter to me who wins now that the USSR no longer exists and neither will be ruled from Moscow?
I say:
That is what you say, I accept it, but you know it is in the air. Indeed, I am very much convinced that the bulk of Americans are not war-hungry people, they are business oriented people and they would much rather roam the world doing business than do war. But their country has always been on war since its birth and due to its will to grow. You do not pay attention what I have repeatedly said: world powers are as good and as bad as their geopolitics can permit them to be. Now, for good or for bad US for the last 20 years has taken a course that governs its current and future politics. It cannot just return to being a large productive country it was in 1940, prior to WWII. This is not the US of 1940. Today US is addicted to importing. And oil imports are just a part of the picture. Its economy survives thanx to the US dollar scum (i.e. printing paper-dollars to give the world a US-stamped means to do its transactions instead of using widely accepted means such as gold, metals, other products, and each other currencies) put in action back in the 1950s and starting from the oil commerce. US today cannot afford seeing the world doing commerce ignoring it. The bulk of the world is not in Americas but in Eurasia. If US returns to its corner there will be irreparable repercussions and the interesting would be to see the financial circle staying there to die in misery or at best shrink at local wholesaler level… well no I am joking, these rats will have long before quit the boat like they did so some 100 years back.
You said!
Your jealousy and rage of the the success of a real democracy, not one limited to a few elite Athenians thousands of years ago is so obvious. Your country is now at the mercy of the Euroland nations whose only real interest is in themselves. If they bail Greece out this time, it will only be because they fear the consequences to their own economies if they don't, not because of any warm affections for Greece. Quite the opposite, they probably resent Greece for being a problem to them in the first place.
I say:
Come one Marcus, you are smarter than that. First of all I am a Macedonian (a real one, not those slavobulgarians living north of macedonia trying to steal our names, culture and history with the ample aid of your counry, having as a future goal of course to attack in any given, guess by whom, chance...). Though Alexander was 10 times more democrat than the bulk of Athenians, I am not so much any royalist either, but then no Atticist, nor Sparta-phile. Athens, be it an important part of the world’s history, it is actually just a small part of Greek history. The Athenian state was a real democracy in the sense that their lot was well-defined, something that ALL modern democracies have simply rarely or never done resulting in just having anyone as a citizen- that is not democracy but ohlocracy. Women did not vote since they did not serve in the army and fight in wars. Immigrants did not vote since they did not serve in the army and fight in wars (exceptionally some of them would do so and if acting good they would be honoured as citizens). Slaves did not serve the army and were not sent to war (but could work in the city police). Back then given the frequence of wars I bet you would rather be an immigrant or a slave. So spare th citizens from ctitiscism. 30,000 citizens, they were not all of them any rich elite. But all that has nothing to do with modern Greek state which is indebted even prior to its recognition in 1830 (the well known revolution debt…) since then, there was hardly any time it was not indebted. Now among countries there is no resentment or real friendship. When US attacks the Greek interests there is no resentment, its cold calculations that have hardly anything to do with the country itself but which fit in greater geopolitical games. That is something that Greek people recognise that is why they do not hold hard feelings against US people though they will not lose any chance to remind them of what their state is up to around the world, like… right now. And frankly, there should be no shame about it. As you said the shame is more on the EU side that does not go out to state clearly what it represents in the world.
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As to psychological pressing, to which, as you claim, Russians are most sensitive of all, compared to other countries' skaters - no denial that a fugure-skating lobby can create such a pressure when they wish.
There has never been a lack of it; what's new?
Neither during USSR, when the sport competitions were pinnacles of the Cold War between the systems. Back then we were winning only because Russia's advantage in figure-skating was not simply "an advantage", but as a distance between Moon and Earth, two heads ahead.
When the athelets training system collapsed, together with the whole USSR, coaches ran, sportsmen became more interested to fight for survival, in basic terms, looking for food for the families rather than for sport achievements, we lapsed whole 15 years when no one was trained, by nobody, and thus a whole sportsmen generation is missing.
During Gorbachyov and Yeltsin, and early Putin likewise - the state stopped being interested in sports' achievements, stadiums and training grounds closed up and converted into street markets and bazaars, finance un-heard of - in other words Russia in sport became, from USSR, an ordinary third world country. Without a say in int'l judging system either, and tournaments' organisation.
That's when the fun began the full-scale, former coyottes hanging out someplace in the far distance - eager to snatch a piece of the old Leo.
All dirty tricks used possible.
You complain about the judging system? That's powerful US sports' lobby hands' making. Sharpened against us. Now, it seems, you can't compete within the rules you've created yourself. Have fun.
I think it's time to start working on adjusting them again :o)))))))
Look here.
http://www.vancouver2010.com/olympic-figure-skating/schedule-and-results/men-short-program_fsm010201uH.html
Plushenko - 10th, with 3 Japanese, 3 Americans and his major competitors (sorry :o)))) - Joubert and Lambiel - performing after.
He won't know their scores, again, and will have to risk to try his luck, in the darkness, without orientation - while judges will have a lee way. To say nothing it's an old rule the last performances are judged higher, as the impressions for judges are fresher. Who do we have at the end of the list?
Take the ugly media campaign against him running, he is described as minimum as a pensioner who for no apparent reason decided to make a sudden twist and return back on stage. How can he, in his 27 years old of retirement age?!
Don't remember a word about "oldage" of the sports pair Gold medalists, your adored Chan and Djan. In the Canadian site to which I gave the link above articles, preceding the tournament - they were described exclusively as darling hope and what a happiness they made it back on stage. The Chinese chap 36, the lady 31 - this didn't bother the main and official site of the Vancouver games at all. Not a word. Neither that they left the sport entirely after Tourine, got married, focused on other life areas, and then suddenly decided to make exactly a come back -after the gold medal exclusively - to leave big sport immediately after again. For that's what they said they are going to do - to have a baby and a family life and all. That they took part in 3 Olympic games and are 12 years on ice competing in world tournaments didn't bother anyone.
That's alright when veterans show back again, to get a Gold and vanish back. When they are Chinese - best worlds' freinds and darlings these days.
It's Plushenko exclusively is 27 years old and how he dares to show up again.
Look at this, Plu
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I even wish we take ourselves out of figure skating for a decade to simply have fun, to see what figure skating ends up with, without Russian engine.
How nicely Americans will compete with the Chinese, to what new sets of mind-boggling rules, to be shortly created and "improved" yet again several times - no doubt.
And what great fun it will be to watch the performance for ordinary TV watchers worldwide - daring "connecting elements" of the Americans, to the hall's full cheer and self-hypnosis, fool-proof technical routines of the Chinese, excelling further and further no doubt in accommodating various "European traditional folk dances" :o))))))))) - all done, no doubt, in cool nerve, by real talents. While Russians, with their excessive sensitivity, psychological succeptiveness, inclination to put an abstract notion of "soul" into the beauty of the performance - as the main indicator - will rest at a side.
What did you "experienced commentator" say about Kawaguti and Smironov, "lack of originality of the elements". Right, the world will be relieved of that annoying lack of originality, which Chinese stamp copy every element and who only not as we set the fashions. I am sure computer modelling will assist others instead just as well, to invent the elements. Jesus Christ, the moment Plushenko put as much as black gloves it was copied in mass fashion, to say nothing of the "boring Russian elements".
Thanks of course, for the in-depth knowledge sharing about how your commenter commented it, I had Plushenko's coach for commenting live and Moskvina's interviews - and did't feel deprived of any handy detail.
The "short" Moskvina. As you put it.
Kawaguti and Smirnov were asked what Moskvina told them, before the start, what was the direction. They said "triple, suddenly", right.
Were asked - what else, didn't she say anything else?
They said she asked them one thing - that whatever they do, it doesn't matter what they do - but the performance has to be "beautiful".
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"when they are against real talent they lose every time"
Real talent, Mavrelius, is no doubt that talent who gets second set of Olympic Gold medals when the "real talent" loses.
And sleeps peacefully-quietly, in cool nerve, knowing that the American money and authority and ice-skating lobby will be swung onto his side, in case they get "cold feet".
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... and then Ransmussen or Randsmussen comes to Moscow to lecture Russian youngsters in the university that NATO is not Russia's enemy!
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... and wonders why they laugh!
Not knowing even the word "Sikharulidze" and unable to see the connection blind even if it were put under his nose! :o))))))))
For him declarations are as good as deeds, and all that was past the opponent block gracefully "excuses itself" about.
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118. At 2:45pm on 16 Feb 2010, Nik wrote:
"The US no matter if our dear interlocutors present it as "a nation" is anythign else but a nation. It was is and will remain is a union of businesses and corporations led by bankers. All the rest is air-talk."
Just trying to come up with a response to such ridiculous nonsense gives me a headache. I'll leave it at that.
"In the US there are various ethnic (they call them racial) divisions and down to the basics, the health-security issue is merely a side effect of these divisions."
You're a foreigner that knows nothing about America except what your anti-American media and culture teaches you. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you never even visited the country.
"the basic idea is that: no American wants to give a single penny for the wellfare of the weak of society: each has to make it on its own."
Again, nonsense. Americans have no problem with helping those in society that truly need help like the elderly, the mentally ill or the handicapped. We just don't like lazy people or those wishing to live off of other people's money. In other words, we don't like bums.
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SuperJulianR wrote:
"The figure of 36 million uninsured Americans is obviously only an estimate but has been widely quoted over here, in connection with your President's attempt to get universal healthcare reforms through."
I've seen even higher numbers coming out of your part of the world. So? It's still nonsense.
"Do you include within this figure the Americans (even well paid middle class ones) who are forced to re-mortgage their homes, face re-possession and even bankruptcy because their insurers will not give them insurance cover, or are charging unreasonably large excesses - all because they have the misfortune to have a family member who suffers from such ill health that the insurnace companies see them as a liability? People forced to choose between home and health care? Or is this all just a media myth? I would love to know."
Oh stop it. You don't want "to know" because you have obviously made up your mind so at least try and be honest.
I have zero desire to get into details about domestic policies in America that have nothing to do with foreigners, especially hostile ones.
"Surely, it makes sense that all people - sick and healthy pay the same premiums, so that everyone can afford decent health care without unduly eating into living standards? - after all nobody chooses to be sick?"
Our living standards in America are just fine. In fact, our technologies also help support your living standards.
"But then this gets to the root of the difference between Europe and US society and culture. There may be a big gap between rich and poor, the well to do may be able to buy better care, but in the end, no European country would allow the kind of brutal natural selection that Americans are fighting tooth and nail to keep."
You know nothing about Americans and our views towards health care except the simplistic anti-American nonsense you are fed every day in your media.
"And most Europeans - including the British - find it hypocritical to think it is too expensive to care for ones one citizens, but OK to pay Billions of Dollars to fight wars in the middle-east; hypocritical to fight for the rights of the unborn (anti-abortion) whilst neglecting the rights of those already born to proper life-preserving medical treatment.
Once again, another example of a nosy anti-American so-called European sticking his or her nose in America's business. What do our views and laws on abortion in our country have to do with you as a non-American?
Whether you like it or not, a child within the body of a women is living. It is also a scientific fact that they become sentient at a certain point. Or do you feel that they magically become sentient once they get squeezed out? :)
You know what I wish America would have done in regards to "fighting wars?" I wish it never would have spent a dime defending Europe post WWII. Think of how much America would have saved.
Of course your life, and the lives of your fellow so-called Europeans, would be quite different today. That's OK, you got your freedom, so that's all that matters.
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smroet;
"Sorry MA-II, but Fischer ended up as a nut-case"
Wow did he ever. Crazy as a loon.
"True, Fischer was the better player"
Not by a little, they weren't in the same league.
"but what good did it do to him in the end?"
He won the world championship. He will forever be remembered as top dog of his day in the chess world. An ingenious player. If you play chess, study his games sometime. Very innovative, very unconventional. He'll never be forgotten, he'll be studied as long as people play chess. What more could one ask for as an epitaph?
"He was the true embodiment of the chess competitor who wants "to crush the ego of the opponent".
"In the end, it amounts to distinguishing between socially likeable persons and diehard competitors. Take your pick."
To be a winning chess player as being a winning general in any army you have to have the killer instinct. In chess players and in other competitive sports including war, nice guys finish last. Were I to want a chess totor or a general commanding an army to defend me, I'd pick a Bobby Fischer over a Boris Spassky any day.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
WA;
"Right, the world will be relieved of that annoying lack of originality, which Chinese stamp copy every element and who only not as we set the fashions. I am sure computer modelling will assist others instead just as well, to invent the elements. Jesus Christ, the moment Plushenko put as much as black gloves it was copied in mass fashion, to say nothing of the "boring Russian elements".
Plagerize!
Let no one else's work evade your eyes!
So don't shade your eyes!
Just plagerize plagerize plagerize!
Only please to call it "research."
And ever since I meet this man my life is not the same
And Nikolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name AI!
WA I think you are taking this skating business entirely too seriously.
I've got an idea for the next time. One skating competition, just one event. A super short event. One jump. A quadruple. If you make it you win. If you fall or don't complete all four turns you lose. The whole event could be over in 15 minuts. 10 if there are no commercials between skaters :-)
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nik;
My comment has been referred to the moderators. They have to look up the world macaroon in a dictionary, they don't know it's a cookie (biscuit to you Britspeakers.)
WA, as I said, KGBBC will censor what the KGB would allow.
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Re 142: Marcus why do you refer to me? I have not complained on any message ever on any forum on the net or elsewhere, let alone your messages that I love to read despite you branding me anti-US together with that sort of people who are anti-US just because they told them to be so, or because it is in fashion.
I have explained my positioning. I am a European citizen and I think for 1, 2, 3 reasons that Europe on the overall finds itself in the negative out of the give & take relationship with the US. It is pure cold calculations, nothing to do with any personal relations between Europeans and Americans.
and to answer together mes:
Yes I have visited the US, it is an immense country with inumerable beauties but no, it is no nation. Other countries are multinational (like the Chinese and the Russians) but they are based in one basic ethnic/national element (Hans, Russians). Americans are what? English? British? Do they just trace back to 1770? And African-americans citizens do they stop tracing in 1960s when they got citizenship rights? And what about latinos? Hmmm. No they are certainly not a nation. Nothing bad about it. Indonesia is not a nation either (many ethnic groups) and so on... even little Belgium is not a nation it is bi-national as it is based on two (equal and opposing forces.. hehe) nations, Flemish & Walons. So nothing particularly weird about the US. Why do you take it so straight in the heart? When it comes to definitions of "nationality" and "ethnicity" there I have to abide by some general rules and not by any US-specific rules. No matter if the US citizens are free to make their own definitions, what others see, they will inherently describe it in their own terms. And what I did here is taking the basic definitions of a "nation": common origins, common language, common history, common religion, common aspirations etc.... these are not strict rules; a nation must have at worst one of those elements to be a nation. What Americans have only is common aspirations, actually 1 common aspiration only, the "dream" of getting rich, nothing else. But that kind of aspiration hardly classifies as an element that describes a group as a nation, it is an aspiration that describes an Empire.
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Also I would not jump to say that Fischer was any level higher than Spassky. He was a better player since he beat him 2 times but in the first time it was far from being any normal match and the position of Spassky had been compromised from the beginning. Spassky had not only to deal with the tricks and gimmicks of Americans and in particular Fischer, but also he suffered from a terrible headache in the most crucial part of the series of games, then he had to deal with all the communist regime that down to the basics did not like much Spassky for not being a convinced communist. Spassky had every right to retire from the game and come back to play when conditions (at least from the US part) would be normal and that is wha the USSR leaders wanted him to do almost right from the beginning but being a gentleman (and perhaps just wanting to get finished with it) he just went to play the game throughout even accepting the most weird wishes of his opponent, like to play in a back room without cameras (and that is where he had the headache making the communist team believe it was some short of US trick to cause him that headache!!!). He was bound to lose – still Fischer admitted that this was by far the most difficult match he had ever played. Under normal conditions the match should had been a 50-50% chance but under these conditions it became a 65-35% in favour of Fishcer, even before entering the board to play. Fischer only proved he was really better in the re-match in the 1990s – albeit one can say that Spassky having been kicked out of the USSR as a “traitor” (and that not only because he lost to Fischer, but for many other reasons and foremost for being anti-communist), he stuck to teaching chess to kids in France while Fischer went on to seclude himself and evolve his playing with himself, but at the end that is what he always had done isn’t it? Fischer remains one of the greatest but down to the basics we never saw him again in international competitions to play against Anatoli Karpov or Gary Kasparov, arguably the best 20th century player.
I have a friend who is mad with chess, strictly amateur, very talented, and he had reached a level to be able to withstand a game or two against a grandmaster. He has an imaginative style of play but he prefers to play 1 minute games on the net doing his amazingly funny trick by starting with the towers (i.e. in a normal game, the worst strategy to start, but then 1 minute chess is a whole different game!). Many years back, in one cool evening he had a weird game (in my presence) with some random player, he started his stupid trick with the tower and the other guy did an even more funny thing, he got out his king and made him dancing around in front! Suddenly my mate saw half the forum (mainly the experienced guys, chess fanatics) watching this game – it was because these people knew/claimed this was Bobby Fischer. And he had nearly faced him for about 30secs (normally with Fischer on a 1 minute game you should lose anywhere between 9 and 19 secs) but then started crumbling and by 45secs he had lost to some thunder from above, hehe! The guy (the alledged Bobby Fischer) laughed and said “I enjoyed this, I do not play often with funny guys like you”. It was certain that whoever he was, he was a grandmaster so my mate asked him “who are you, where are you from?” and he answered something like “you certainly know me but lets not say more, I have no standard basis, you might find me from times to times here”.
In anyway, this Bobby Fischer was an amazing guy but as WebAliceInWonderland at least Spassky had a life, Bobby had only chess. Even the best, Kasparov has a life (arguably nowadays as a US-agent but still that is life too isn"t it?).
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MA, this is going to be difficult.
in youtube search line
tyumenboy
he had placed many entries, the last entry on the 2nd page! (out of 3) of his favourite videos. 2:42
a 90 year old lady white haired and in a burgundy dress with golden embroidery approximately will be the picture. Alla Bayanova singing "V kosynochke gazovoy"/in a ? shiffon? head scarf.
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Since moderation here doesn't let through the links even to song records of Shalyapin of 1908, there is no other way but to trace through the video tube participants. And Alla Bayanova singinhg is not 1908 but 2008. Though born approximately in 1908 :o)))))) exactly.
We'll never agree on that with moderators me and them. They don't get the angle that song is a free thing for Russians and all those Russian singers who think so - you can see at once in you tube. The entries with their songs are not technically artificially interrupted by stop-overs, because they want their songs to be there.
All those greedy about authorship rights have their songs in you tube with stop-overs and interruptions. You tube minds the authorshiop rights business very well, without BBC moderation in-put, if there are rights and someone of the living singers or their relatives are concerend - songs in you tube stop in mid air are suspended, specially interrupted.
You'll never see that in Vysotsky, Vertinsky, though there are special funds and heaps of relatives guarding their heritage and all rights are reserved. Their relatives grandchildren and children will never dare deprive Russians of these songs.
Alla Bayanova is a brand mark in Russian romance, a live legend.
Nevermind, the text (dear moderators, the romance is 18th century, alright?) is a short version, is:
If you love me - don't refuse me
But keep in mind one important detail :o)
About love - to nobody tell
To no body.
Nothing.
Never.
To no one.
Not a word.
Never.
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Accordingly, if it seems to you MA mistakingly I take figure-skating way to seriously" - it only seems to you. A mirage. Did I ever mentioned figure-skating here? Surely not.
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On Fischer? :o)
Dear moderators, a popular song of 1960-s, just extracts, of a long song on Fischer, to illustrate my point, please.
I was screaming, what are you, insane? Lost the USSR chess prestige!
So they said to me, in our factory sports' department - that's cool, you will stand up for it. :o)
But, remember, Fischer - very bright, even sleeps with chess-board...
..squares, like circles, in my vision,
Kings I mix up with Aces
And with debut - I mix up a doublet! :o)))
..I had played, with Tal, ten training parties
In preferance, in 21, and on the billiards
Tal has said : this chap will not fail us!
..I put heart in runs for 100 metres,
Got some weight off, in the sauna, excellent sleep,
Did some training in our factory hockey yard,
In other words, after such extensive preparation,
I will squeese him out, with any silly chech or mate.
....
And for some, unknown to me, "tseitnot" (time out?)
- There exists a strength of will, and a handsome appercut!
...Ah, he is destroying my defense, old Indian, in one moment!
This is vaguely me reminding Indo-Pakistanian incident!
.. So I have measured his figure, by eye,
And when he announced me a shah
I have bared my byceps, as if, occasionally
And even, took off, to be sure, my coat!
And - immediately - in the hall - it got dead quiet -
He has seen how I am standing up
..I think at that point - it became to him - not up to these chips
And the famous, well-renouned Fischer
Has immediately agreed for a draw!
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Nik;
"Yes I have visited the US, it is an immense country with inumerable beauties but no, it is no nation. Other countries are multinational (like the Chinese and the Russians) but they are based in one basic ethnic/national element (Hans, Russians). Americans are what?"
Either you have not read some of my previous postings or did not understand them. Yes the United States is a unique country and nation. Other nations are based largely on shared ethnicity, shared history, shared ties to their land the people who are citizens there have in common. America is only based on shared core values. This may be impossible for someone who is not American to comprehend. It is why among other things anyone can become a fully fledged American but that is not possible in most other countries. Turks could live in Germany for five generations and not be considered fully fledged Germans. It is why ethnic strife can be dealt with successfully in the US but often not elsewhere. It is why all Americans can fully partipate in all aspects of the nation's life. It is why the most ambitious and talented people in the world who find they have been born in a place where they are not among the favored due to circumstances of their birth gravitate to America. It gives America one more enormous advantage over everyone else. Except by name, physical morphology, and preferences for certain foods, it is impossible for one American born here to identify the prior heritage of another. The process has accelerated since America stopped favoring immigrants from Europe over those from other parts of the world.
The US census bureau projects that by 2050 the population of the United States will be 420 million up from a little over 300 million today. Were it not for immigration the US population would be stable. The entire growth will be due to immigrants. What we see as our strength, this attraction of immigrants is what other nations around the world dread or shun. All we ask is that people come here legally at a rate we can control so that we can fully absorb them without serious impact to our economy or social structure as new arrivals often require help from the government before they can support themselves. Perhaps Canada is similar in this regard. I can't think of many others.
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WA;
First Chess, now figure skating. Where does it end? :-)
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Marcus that is what exactly I was saying by refering to definitions of a nation. You make reference to core values. Maybe that is true, what us foreigners see is that the main core value is the "dream", i.e. a better life. It is only when that dream will prove unrealistic and there will be a downfall when we will be able to judge whether US citizens consist of a nation or not. How many will be prepared to stay and give a fight? Will Americans chose to follow the paradigm of Greeks in Cyprus (to give one paradigm) that fought against the British rule that promised them endless prosperity to join a recked from WWII, civil war, hunger and poverty Greece, only to be among their co-patriots? It remains to be seen.
Nations are formed in the course of time and then they do continue to evolve. Perhaps that is what the US tries to do so we do not have to be unfair. But as said, it will require time to do so and that is not visible in a lifetime no matter how fast things run today.
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So, he, the bully, has the fortune to start.
(I have heard somewhere he is good, with whites)
He has made a move from E2 to E4
Same as with Kaimanov, aha.
... ???
At a random, like at night, in taiga,
I remember - most important is the queen, walks forward-backward and left to right
And those knights - they only as letter "L".
.. as I see, he's targeting a fork, wants to eat. I'd also eat, a queen. Eh, to such a snack - if only a bottle! And to change these pawns, with small glasses - the situation would immediately clear up, on the board!
..I've got to beat up some of his pawns; already time?
...
So, with what to move? By castle - I'm not very sure.
Right swing, into jaw, one'd think - too early? would be un-polite,
After all - our first with Fischer game.
Though, it's silly of him, to joke with Russian fellows,
I've got measures against him; whole two.
If he'll finish me up with a checkmate,
I shall him - over the hip, with a seisure,
Or - a knight move. On his head!
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" All we ask is that people come here legally at a rate we can control so that we can fully absorb them without serious impact to our economy or social structure as new arrivals often require help from the government before they can support themselves. Perhaps Canada is similar in this regard. I can't think of many others. "
All we never asked about and still they do :o) - people come to Russia illegally, at a rate we can not control, though we can fully absorb them :o)) - without serious impact to our (non-existing) economy and social structure :o))), as new arrivals always require help from the government (which they never get :o))) before they can support themselves (they all can somehow themslelves) so it un-intentionally happened that Russia in 2008 first time had more immigration (in official registered figures only :o)))) - than the USA.
I can think of others, like USA and may be Canada, but the fact is for un-understandable reason we are now the most attractive in the world.
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Although 'a European way of life' has not been defined, it may be a very real concept to Europeans. The first feature might be a chamber-like character of life when compared with the American way of life. It might also be marked by sensitivity, care for close and permanent relations, love of home life, a sedentary life style and aspiration for beauty and fulfilment through science and art. It was also marked by modesty and the brazen attitudes that have spread are a result of globalisation. It is very good that politicians have introduced this concept.
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jon_toronto (#11) "Politicians use the phrase because the everyone in the audience thinks that it refers to *their* own way of life."
I must take exception to your assertion that "American values" means merely whatever individuals value, including their particular lifestyle choices and prejudices. While we certainly can have different individual understanding of the term, nobody (with any authority) understands it to mean that. It is used to mean "core" values of a more general nature, not specific preferences.
There is no "official" definition, but here is one which I think expresses the idea pretty well:
Core American Values (from pbs.org)
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MarcusAureliusII (#127) "Fisher versus Spasky. Fisher was by far the better chess player but he beat the Russians at their own psychological games as well."
I wouldn't use Bobby Fischer as a role model for Americans. He did beat Boris Spassky handily, but the match everyone wanted to see next was with Anatoly Karpov. It never happened; Fischer cut and ran. From there it was all downhill.
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" first chess, now figure-skating - where does it end?"
Yes, Mavrelius, it is hard to fight oneself, :o))) difficult competition, no denial. As minimum, Russians do find it difficult, to fight Russians.
Tarasova (Lucicek) versus Michin (Plushenko) :o))))
Or, let me see, Johny Weir. Aha. Johnny Weir, or, as he is fondly called in Russia "our Jonnik", for he is a frequent visitor, has heaps of admireres In Russia, and after 3 Russian coaches speaks good Russian. Johny Weir is Tarasova-Petrenko-Zmeevskaya.
Have you seen the big round lady, patting him lovingly on the back, sending him on ice?
That's Zmeevskaya, as Russian commentator said "a very strict coach, "you won't fool around with her" :o)))) and "it is good she found an access to the delicate and sensitive Johny Weir soul:o))), he seems to be in perfect accord with his coach. So never mind the carpets and draperies he brought over to the Olympic village to decorate its spartan rooms' looks, the main thing he feels happy and Zmeevskaya is happy with her pupil, and all goes fine - which is reflected on ice.
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:o)
Warm, even, hot, hospitality and reception awaits Russian Olympic team on return home.
Most likely, after meeting with their fans, they will in future compete in the Paralympic games.
After Canadians and Americans changed the looks of the "un-official countries' competition" in medals Table (by US understanding, since last week, the country is tops who has most medals combined, not the rank by gold medals, as it used to be previously) - Russian Olympic committee has addressed the Int' Olympic committee with the request to institute an additional medal "for the 4th place".
(we have them all :o( :o))))
Threatening by un-limited vodka carousal in Vancouver Russians demand to urgently introduce medals for the 4th place!
Who would have thought tha kerling is the last hope of Russia? :o))))))
Success of the Russian kerling team became more visible after for the position of the main coach was invited babaushka Dusja who has worked the previous 40 years as a school floor cleaner. :o)
How hard it is to struggle for euro in the country of Canadian dollars.
What's the difference btw Russia's football team and Olympic team?
The football team decided it's too hot in Africa while the Olympic team still decided to have a stroll to Canada for holidays.
So, how does our Olympic team feel in Vancouver?
Not bad. Compared to the Georgian one.
What will be in Sochi in the winter 2014?
Kurchavel on the Black Sea.
:o))))
Why Russian biathlon team doesn't have a single Jakut in? They hunt for squirrels by one shot into the eye!
- Because there are 5 targets, and you can't kill with one shot a 5-eyed squirrel.
And what did you want, that our pair sports' figure skaters won the Gold for the 13th time? Surely they skipped itt, and will have to win it at once for the 14th time!
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A sudden snow-fall stood in the way of the sure Russian men's victory in biathlon. Two other obstacles were skis and rifles.
"We are happy with our performance" - chirruped a girl from the Rus. biathlon ladies' team, to the TV commentator. "And, regarding medals - we don't owe anything to any body"
The girls seem to be forgetting that lazy peasants are usually flogged at the stables.
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In the short programme, for the components, in particular for the transitions between elements, Evgeny Plushenko was marked score 5.0 - by one judge and 5.0 - by another judge. Both marks were counted towards his total score.
Thus, 2 judges in Vancouver, rated Evgeny's performance as 23rd out of 24 men participants. The second best from the worst.
Vancouver.
10 minutes ago we saw Canadian's performance, Chan.
He received score 165, while the max what he could only have received was 145. Rather, by fact it was 135.
5 minutes ago we've seen Lucicek. 167. Did it look to any one as a champion's skate?
Without any thing that could be a claim for the champion
Vancouver.
Even then, he was first.
10 minutes ago
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A quote from
http://www.vancouver2010.com/olympic-figure-skating/
Capitalisation - mine.
"Reigning world champion Evan Lysacek gave the United States their first Olympic men's figure skating title in 22 years with a RISK-FREE performance on Thursday.
Defending champion Yevgeny Plushenko of Russia had to settle for silver.
Lysacek, 24, finished just 1.31 points ahead of three-time world champion Plushenko whose SHAKY landing on several jumps ended his gold-medal challenge.
"That's my best free programme this season," said Lysacek. "I've been waiting for a clean free skate all season."
Lysacek becomes the first American to win the title since Brian Boitano at the 1988 Calgary Games, and breaks an 18-year Russian domination in the event.
Takahashi finished over ten points behind the winner after falling on his opening quadruple jump.
Plushenko, 27, had led the short programme but with less than 0.60 points separating him from Lysacek and Takahashi it was a virtual tie going into the free skate final.
Lysacek threw down the challenge with a flawless performance to SHEHERAZADE.
The 24-year-old did not include a quadruple jump, perferring eight triples including an opening triple-triple combination and two axels.
He scored 167.37 for the free skate and 257.67 overall.
Skating last, Plushenko opened with a quadruple-triple toeloop combination.
Always the showman, he blew kisses to the spectators during the Tango Amore specially composed for him by Hungarian violinist Edvin Marton who also composed his programme at the 2006 Turin Games.
He scored slightly less than Lysacek tecnically with 165.51 for the free skate and 256.36 overall.
The Russian however becomes just the second man in history to earn more than two Olympic medals, adding to his gold from Turin and silver in Salt Lake City.
Olympic silver medallist Stephane Lambiel of Switzerland finished off the podium in fourth.
He had been in fifth after the short programme but struggled to hold the second of his quad jumps."
____________________
Now, let's look into these "several shaky landings in jumps" given as the explanation.
From the same official Olympic games' site, "Schedule and Results"
Planned Elements /Executed Elements
Base Value - GOE - Score
(GOE is a deduction or an increase, either a negative or positive amount, by which a technical element value worth is either increased in value, or decreased in value, depending on the execution of it, by a judge decision. Making the contribution of the element to the total score either smaller or bigger.)
Quadruple Toeloop + Triple Toeloop + Double Loop
13.80 0.80 14.60
Triple Axel
8.20 -0.36 7.84
Triple Axel + Double Toeloop
9.50 1.00 10.50
Triple Loop
5.00 0.60 5.60
Flying Sit Spin 3
2.60 0.14 2.74
Triple Lutz
6.00 0.60 6.60
Change Foot Sit Spin
3.00 0.70 3.70
Circular Step Sequence
3.30 0.80 4.10
Triple Lutz + Double Toeloup
8.03 0.00 8.03
Triple Salchow
4.95 0.80 5.75
Double Axel
3.85 1.00 4.85
Straight Line Step Sequence 3
3.30 1.00 4.30
Change Foot Combination 4
3.50 0.60 4.10
Totals Executed Elements 75.03
Deductions 0.00
Total score 82.71
Of the thirteen "Planned elements" (the list given to the jury before the performance) (in THE case of Evegeny Plushenko the same as "Executed elements" :o))))), there was one with a deduction (- 0.36), one that kept its base value, and the rest of "several shaky landings" :o))))) - namely, eleven "elements" -
seem to have been rated by the judges HIGHER than they are worthy of, "by the book". Because we do trust the officially published results.
The rest of "several jumps" or whatever "elements" rest were not subject to deduction, and, it would seem from the above, to the contrary, had their base value increased.
So, the "several shaky landings" as an explanation were not reflected in the judges' score book.
So where are they reflected? May be in the so-called "Factored elements", the "Program components"? They shouldn't be, but one has to look everywhere, so let's look everywhere where it is possible. The second component of the total score of a programme, "Program components".
Program Components
Unfactored Score - Factor - Total
Choreography/Composition 8.20 - 2.00 - 16.4
Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.25-2.00-14.5
Interpretation 8.75-2.00-17.5
Performance/Execution 8.80-2.00-17.6
Skating Skills 8.40-2.00-16.8
Factored Program Components Total 82.80
It seems here we are without negative factor as well, to the contrary, all worth of the components was multiplied twice.
I am sorry to show the skating judgement to the bloggers un-interested in the Olympic games, but think it never hurts to know the kitchen of the figure-skating, for all who aspire for the medlas in future. How it actually works.
Deductions Value
Time Violation 0.00
Music Violation 0.00
Illegal Element 0.00
Costume & Prop Violation 0.00
Fall 0.00
Interruption in Excess 0.00
Total Deductions 0.00
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WA;
"The girls seem to be forgetting that lazy peasants are usually flogged at the stables."
Not the pretty ones WA. I assure you the pretty ones are not flogged.
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Scale down yourself, Mavrelius. A citizen of the puffed-up bubble which preferred mode of operation is stealing Russian victories. Be it 2nd world war or figure skating.
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Three figure-skating judges in one lift descending to the ground floor of the hotel they stayed in - made a mistake of speaking English to each other - yesterday mid-day.
Their talk was over-heard by the Russian Olympic team members, squeesed in the same lift. The detail of the conversation was made known by the figure-skating TV commentator, to the wide audience, before the competition began.
What I heard was "It won't be easy to justify the decision tonight."
Can refer to anything, of course.
The fact is that the past 4 years, between the Tourine games and Vancouver, the world figure skating association were running courses and qualification enhancement seminars, for the figure-skating judges. Various their conferences, training, round tables and get-togethers.
Many events.
In each and every of them was demonstrated a learning video, "How to judge", basically, made by the US figure-skating judges, showing various jumps, elements, positive and negative exaamples of them, best demonstrated practices, worst demonstrated practices, skater's mistakes, successes, judges' mistakes, etc. Illustrating material.
Without exception - absolutely all jumps in the examples "How one should NOT do it - a vivid sample of a skater's mistake" - were video records of Evgeny Plushenko. Effectively, a Tourine Golden Medalist was used as a sample for judges of "How some can't jump".
That's how, for 4 years, the international judges' audience was "tuned" onto Evgeny Plushenko, his "mistakes" in jumps, and an opinion was formed.
A lousy, but a very effective method, not prohibited by any "rules". A window of opportunity, one might say, utilised to full capacity.
This video was extracted out of operation, on the protest of the Russian Figure-skating association, only in December 2009, when Plushenko announced he plans to come back. The previous Russian protests were ignored by the judges, because "the man has retired", "it's not un-ethical to use his videos as a training example".
The monor detail that people with a jota of conciousness wouldn't use an Olympic games winner as a "bad example", and will be ashamed to initiate such a campaign, in the first place - didn't cross American mind.
Your "most strongest nation on Earth" does not know what is conciousness. You know only the mantra "we are the world's No 1" - doesn't matter in what. in Everything.
And bullies it through, by all ways, ethical, un-ethical, bending rules, using every opportunity.
A puffed-up artificially bubble, as a I said. No content. Enjoy yourselves, if you can. Ugh.
(un-know word for Americans, as I understand.
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@Alice
Here are 2 interesting articles from the US press/
Evan was good, but not outstanding, owing as much his gold to the errors of the other competitors as to his skills (http://www.slate.com/id/2245177/)
About the judges (http://www.slate.com/id/2244277/)
And for MA2, something you should find amusing
"Boycott the Olympics!"
"Why the United States should skip the Winter Games."
(http://www.slate.com/id/2244283/)
Best regards,
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Gavin states categorically "It is difficult sustaining a single currency when sovereign states have different fiscal policies." But we have very limited experience apart from the eurozone of states sharing a single currency. However, both the UK to a minor extent and the USA to a greater extent have different fiscal systems within a single state and for many years, Ireland and the UK shared a common currency but pursued quite separate fiscal policies without undue difficulties. Within a single state, the USA has plenty of experience of states or cities having extreme financial difficulties without bringing down the dollar.
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WA;
I think you are taking this figure skating business much too seriously. Oops, I'm repeating myself.
Now take me for instance. I knew the Americans were not going to win. So I just sat back and enjoyed all of the skaters. Even the lowest scoring skaters were superb. So Russia lost the figure skating competition this year, it isn't the end of the world. It isn't like Russia lost the cold war or anything :-) Nobody can win all the time. Not even the great New York Yankees, the best baseball team money can buy :-)
So is America really the strongest nation in the world? Russia has 12,000 hydrogen bombs, the US only has 9000 and I think it will cut back even unilaterally from that. To paraphrase Khurshchev you can blow us up 60 times over, we can only blow you up 45 times over. You win :-)
If Russia doesn't like America's trainging film for judges, it should make its own. It could put it on Youtube where we can all watch it. Even you now WA :-)
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Starbuck11
Thank you for the articles, I'm reading many of them.
In my (and in general Russian view, for we stand united behind our figure-skating) what is happening is post Tourine games - in which no one could do 4-revolution jumps but Russians - these jumps were out-casted.
The message is "Americans can't do them so they are no good".
The appeal to non US/Canada nationality judges was "you should agree with us, because your country skaters can't do them either, right?"
These jumps officially are not written off from the "book of elements", they exist, and they are rated high, but the work was done on the judges' community, and, in wider terms, on the figure-skating community (coaches, retired skaters-to-become-coaches, associations - it is quite big an industry) that what Americans do not - it is BETTER that others do not either. B-ing own way through, to make it safer and more comfortable for the US to win in the nearest future.
Mind my word, the moment the US team is able to do 4-time revolutions - the 4-revolution jumps will be back again and heralded into all trumpets as the top of desires. Just not now.
That's why all this un-healthy buzz regarding these jumps in particular,
absolutely un-proportional to their real value in a performance. because, OK, they are rated 13 for a jump "by the book", as compared to an ordinary 3-revolution jump, which is, say, 8.
13-8= the difference is just 5 scores.
How many those tricky ones can a skater do during a short or a free programme? Say, 2 (as Plushenko (rarely) can. This is the ceiling, 5 multipled twice - gives a scater 10 scores of advantage.
In reality, it doesn't, because with those subjective minus or plus, additives or destructions ? distractions? when they minus, from the "book element value", at own (and anonymous) preference - never a triple jump is 8, but is easily rated 11 or even 12 (or, the opposite, 5-6).
So the ability to do 4-turns does not translate into "won by all means". With 10-15 "elements" in a programme, the judges have enough lee-way to upgrade a single or a double jump into something out of proportion, as they like it, to say nothing of 3-turn jumps.
Combinations 2+3 or 3+3 give further possibilities for a judge to do what they want, to say nothing the very jumps are different, facing backwards, facing forward, done from the inner blade of the skate, from the outer blade of the skate, landing on the outer, landing on the inner blade - various jumps' names originating from it (toeloop, Salkhov, Lutz etc.)
The anti-Russian and anti-Plushenko, in particular, campaign stems from the very fact we go against the tide, against the opinion of the (current) figure-skating majority, where the rules are set to a large degree by the Americans. That's a revolution that we have a difficulty making. Russia wants to dictate its figure-skating rules further on, to continue to set the fashion in the figure-skating world. We have that idea that 4-turns are good for men, and, I am sorry, we are into 5-turns now, in fact :o)))))))) Plushenko does 5-turns, and other men in the team attempt and train for. Even that they are not yet in the "book" at all :o)))), as credited "impossible by nature" :o)))))
We think that's in the Olympic spirit - to break the records and do the impossible. That is the spirit, isn't it?
Plushenko was punished for doing 4-turns. Especially that he did them twice in a programme.
For all the rest there was in his programme, is, how to put it softly, :o)))) is not worse a content than anyone's. He doesn't do 4-turns cannibalising on the other elemenst of the performance.
He does them on top, as the icing, to the cake :o))))
He does the steps sequel, and the swirls, and he doesn't exactly lack in impressionism, and in artistry, is in accord with his music, and in his power of expression, and quite powerfully brings the message of the dance to the audience. To say nothing of the simpler "jumps".
Americans just snatched at the 4-turn jumps as at a bone, trying to explain by this - I don't know what. For - what? What's the crime?
That Russia sets a trend. That is a crime.
Between Tourine and Vancouver all world championships were won without Plushenko and without 4-turn jumps. It was a quiet pond grown over by moss.
To which Russia now brought again a disturbance :o)))) violating the peace and quiet of this stinking eh standing water, driving the engine forward. Plushenko did the main thing he returned back to the Olympic games for - brought a current of fresh air.
After the news got spread he is going to be back for the Olympics - 5 skaters included 4-turn jumps into the short programme (declared) and 3 -for the free programme of yesterday. None did, all fell. He did alone - again - twice a quadriple and once a quadriple. And not separately, but in a session: 4 turns -3 turns -2. :o)))))
He is a real hero, and not after "medals". The lay-out was clear long before the Olympics start. To please the judges in their current moods - one should NOT attempt 4-turns.
Plushenko drives the figure-skating progress forward.
And it is amazing, the condition of the current men's figure skating, how laid back and relaxed it became, if a man who hasn't been on ice for 3.5 years, to say nothing of "intensive training" :o))) - is able to easily take a silver.
To say nothing of his plastic knee recently installed by Germans (which Western media prefers not to mention :o)))) - as he skated right out of the operation table in the European championship last month and on pain-killers injections. Because this makes his performance and true fighter spirit even more stunning.
Russia is absolutely thankful to him, and in total hats off condition now. For he was going against the tide, which is never easy, for the sake of the future of the sport discipline. And after an op. And - in the heaviest psychological pressure condition possible - because the country demanded of him "only gold", as the rest of the Russian Olympic team is showing lousy show, failed the event entirely, he was the country's only hope. The pressure and responsibility weight on his shoulders was enormous, even without the shameful industry campaign ran against him, and focused on one man. Ugh.
If Evgeny fell on ice - he wouldn't weep spectacularly, like the Lycicek, rest assured.
He is a man on ice, and it is seen.
And if men's figure skating is a sport - they will jump 4-turns and 5-turns in future. As Russia says. Because otherwise it is not a sport but a ballet. What's this suddenly "no risk" attitude, in Olympics? Skiiers risk, luge risk, most men disciplines in the Olympic winter games have a high amount of risk. Why suddenly men's figure-skating is to be a ballet?
Let's take away ice then, it's slippery.
If I were an American, I would be ashamed to look at the mirror today.
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And, hello, Switzerland. The only man in the world who does swirls better than Plushenko, and by far amount - 10 times better - is Stephan Lambiel. A guru, in swirls.
We wait for the swirls to be prohibited shortly by the US as well.
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The face of the Lysacek after the free programme skate. This time , weeping from joy. Sincere open happiness, oh how did I do it? can not be! I so much dreamed of it, a childish happiness.
Surely, can not be. Very true feelings. The skating association gave it to you, sissy boy. By rating your technical part, in the first, short programme, out of proportion.
Rightly Evgeny showed his attitude to this shame, by walking over the 1st top, stairs, of the gold winner, on the pedestal in the awarding ceremony. Hip-hopped over it, with a smile.
:o))))))
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Mavrelius, why won't you adjust your Olympic slogan from "Quicker, Higher, Stronger" to "Moderation and timidity is the key"?
Will bring, finally, an American in-put into this sport development.
As they say, "Russians invented the electric bulb; Edison invented that it can be sold". Something in this very style, an "improvement", to the "scheme".
Where are your champions bullied in, replacing Russians, to the pedestal in the latest figure-skating Olympics? What is their contribution to the figure skating development?
What is the name of that girl who was issued the Gold instead of Irina Slutskaya, in Salt Lake city. Irina Slutskaya, who dared to jump a 4-turn - in the female skating!
So, what's the name of that girl? Anybody remembers? Where is she, after the Olympic games? What has she done, before, or after, how did the sport move forward, thanks to her "in-put"?
Where is that pair, issued "the second set" of Olympic gold medals in Canada, to "compliment" the already won set of of Gold of Berezhnaya-Sikharulidze. What's their names, any one remembers? Did they skate - once - after? Anywhere? Work as coaches? Where are thir pupils? Where are they vanished - and - appeared - from? What's their contribution?
The answer, when you bombast your way through - without the true content - is always "Zero. Nothing."
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WebAlice (#168) "If I were an American, I would be ashamed to look at the mirror today."
I am, and I'm not. You're remarks seem to me to be those of a sore loser. Figure skating, even the men's solo, is not merely an athletic event -- it is an artistic event. Choreography and a clean performance are important. A clean triple is always better to look at than a wobbly quad.
My favorite male skater was 1980 Olympic champion Robin Cousins. Here is a link to his thoughts on this year's event:
Robin Cousins interview
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And it goes on. The same website of the Vancouver games; our main source of information :o))))).
"FIGURE SKATING: CONTROVERSY LOOMS AT ICE DANCE"
- Oh, what "controversy"? What's the looming danger, one would think, a peaceful thing, just a dance?
- And, at who does it "loom"?
So we read on:
"The ice dancers haven't even stepped on the ice and controversy is already raging in Vancouver.
Oksana Domnina and Maxim Shabalin are already in hot water before they even step on the ice at the Pacific Coliseum on Friday for their Aboriginal-themed original dance, deemed disrespectful in Australia.
The pair have insisted this could not be further from the truth, although it remains to be seen whether they stick with their controversial costume of red loin cloths, body paint and eucalyptus leaves.
"This is wrong. Our purpose was the opposite. We want to honour the culture, to show a dance as it was 1,000 years ago in the Southeast Asian region," said Shabalin.
The reigning world champions are favourites to keep the title in Russian hands with teams from Russia or the former Soviet Union having only twice failed to stand on the top of the podium.
But they may not have it all their own way.
North American couples have moved up the pecking order in ice dancing.
US champions Meryl Davis and Charlie White and Canada's Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir, are strongly positioned for the podium.
The Russians are strong in the compulsory dance which gets underway on Friday, while Davis and White earn highly for their Bollywood original dance, and the Canadians their free dance.
Domnina and Shabalin will be looking to set themselves up with their Tango Romantica compulsory dance as they did at Europeans last month when they came back from Shabalin's knee injury to win a second title.
...
Davis and White are in form this season, winning the Cup of Russia and the NHK Trophy in Japan, followed by the Grand Prix final.
...
Virtue and Moir are trying to become just the second Canadians to stand on the Olympic podium ...
...
Olympic silver medallists Tanith Belbin and Benjamin Agosto are also
...
In the past, other factors have impacted on the final result in ice dancing as seen at the Salt Lake City Games when a voting scandal concerning judges in ice dance and pairs resulted in a change in the marking system.
And outside factors having an impact remains a threat, says White.
"The possibility of that happening is very real," he said. "There's a lot of human subjectivity. That is something you can't control, you can only control what you do on the ice."
The compulsory dance takes place on Friday with the original dance on Sunday and the free dance final on Monday."
Aha.
So the danger looms, surprise surprise, again over "Russians".
Because of - attention - this time it's a "wrong costume".
What do we have on costumes, let me have a look?
Deductions Value
Time Violation
Extra Elements
Illegal Element
Costume & Prop Violation
Lifts Exceeding Duration
Fall
Interruption in Excess
Really, will be so straight-forward? Or will it be enough, that since the Rus. pair won European championship Gold a month ago Australian aboriginals flared up (of all people) and are writing addresses to all world media and to the ice-skating association demanding to "prohibit" the Russian pair from dancing, and to look closer into their daring interpretation of the aboriginals dance (the original-aboriginal did not use skates. aj jaj jaj) (the cloth "leaves" attached to the costumes are an assault to Australia, true real "aboriginals" never wore skirts made of leaves. they think :o))))) - in other word - only a lazy media did not address the champion pair during the past month with the question "Will you change your mind and dance something else instead? We are so PC these days, who knows how that real true Australian aboriginal dance costume should look by the "book". May be leaves are of another format. May be they didn't use the skates. Who the hell can tell - step back, won't you?"
A pleasnt pressure build-up for a pair competing for victory. Because if they wouldn't qualify as anything special - one would think no "true aboriginals" would have never raised their suddenly powerful voice.
Mauy be will get nervous. May be will fell. There is a chance always, not to be missed. They are Russians.
I looked up CNN. :o))))) CNN front page. Any world disasters worry CNN?
Obama? Afghanistan campaign? Climate issues, not to be mentioned for the night? Haiti?
NO.
CNN's front news page suggests their readers to "Choose the worst figure-skating costume of the century". Samples provided, one should only rate. The picture, decorating the site - guess three times who is in it. And in what wrong "leaves".
A sudden co-incidence, today, before the event. A build-up of anticipations. Otherwise - how would CNN readers know what to think? Maybe they'll even LIKE the funny leaves, aj jaj jaj.
You know what? We don't care.
For Russians the Vancouver games, honestly, consisted of one event, nevermind all the Olympic Games events before the 18th, and nevermind all after the 18th. I simply didn't tell, afarid to black-eye it.
Evgeny Plushenko - that's what counts, for figure-skating.
For us the Olympics are over.
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Why did I put that apostrophe in my post at #172? Anyway, it's an irony that the current scoring system for figure skating was introduced because it appeared that a pairs competition had been fixed in favor of the Russian pair.
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"a clean triple is always better to look at than a wobbly squad"
I agree. The judges, though, didn't think Plushenko's squads "wobbly".
Check up the scores for his squads, "book value" and a factor of increase granted for the squads.
You have clearly missed on that one. May be you can't tell a squad from a triple, by the looks?
But then, of course, I thought, if Plushenko's squads seem particularly disgusting to you, I sympathise :o)))))
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"sore loser"?
Plushenko won. We feel stronger than ever in men's figure-skating.
He may be back for Sochi again :o)))))
Will you Lysechek compete with the Japanese in 4 years? With what :o))), may I ask, with triple jumps and "clean performance"?
From what I've seen the past days - there is no lack of viewing pleasure of triple jumps and clean performance. :o)))))) The general level is quite high. Your national treasure as of last night Lysachek - doesn't stand out of the level at all. If he was not American and announced with a pomp - no one would know that's a champion's performance they are watching.
And the Japanese and the young Kazakh wonder - were level.
While Plushenko and Lambiel - one does not need "to announce".
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"But then, of course, I thought, if Plushenko's squads seem particularly disgusting to you, ...
No, I did not say any aspect of Plushenko's performance was "disgusting." In any case, I was remarking generally, not about any specific details of either performance. I'm certainly not going to review it in detail and score it myself. That's a job for experts.
There seems to be a broad consensus that the result came out right. I'm not saying this as a result of an American or anti-Russian bias. I liked Viktor Petrenko, for example.
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Here's a link to a review of the competition from the Telegraph (UK), for example:
Lysacek shocks Plushenko
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With all respect, I mean, foreign articles and quotes are nice, but these do not originate from the proven figure-skating success land.
British victories were shining example, trend-setting for the world in general and Russia in particular, but 40 years ago.
The recent US/Canadian inventions :o)))) are add hoc, and can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
And always come with a smell, or should we say, "a controversy" :o)))) the shameful down-scoring of Irina Slutskaya, the "double gold" in Canada, the current Lysicek/Plushenko.
I'd read now what Russian coaches say, the ones that work either for the USA or for Russia, because out of their hands emerge champions, or "as good as a champions"-s :o)))), on a shiny day.
What the Japanese coaches have said.
What Lambiel thinks.
Normally, people don't lsten to what scaters themselves say. Their business is walk the walk, not to talk the talk.
Unless of course you are prepared to listen to Brian Joubert "I'll win over Plushenko this time, I am far better fit" or Chan "I'll win the gold without 4-turn jumps, Plushenko is old, he can't compete for medals, the gold shall be mine". Quite talkative fellows.
Coaches of course, also subjective, depending on what country they work for, who pays the money.
Modern judges - simply forget. Since the USA drove through the anonymous judging system - I wouldn't give a fig for the credibility of their opinion.
Olympic committees - who usually "talk the talk", on behalf of their country interests - those talking heads on business simply skip.
So, who are "the experts", is indeed, an intersting question. The un-biased experts, I mean.
From skaters, commissioners, coaches and judges, I think I'll still settle on functioning coaches. At least, something practical and visible gets out of their hands' making. When it does, consequitively.
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CH1618, "Lysacek shocks Plushenko" :o)))))
The articles like above "only brute physical strength kept Plushenko on ice" are not going to impress me. Our chap lost 14 kilos in the past 2 weeks, in fact can't stop in getting more fragile and transparent :o))) and after the operation we don't talk much on his "physical strength." He is tomorrow back to the German hospital.
With all respect, the British ice-skating was a trend-setter and a role model for the world, and for Russia in particular, who opted to took it personally :o)))) - (and very good that we did) but 40 years ago.
I'd listen to what coaches have to say, either the Russian ones who train Americans, or the Russian ones who train Russians, or the Russian ones who train Kazakhstan, or, you got the idea :o)))))
Because to listen what the skaters say themselves is a joke, their business is to walk the walk not to talk the talk. When they start thinking differently, there emerge pearls type Brian Joubert 2 weeks ago "I shall have the gold, Plushenko is old, and I am perfectly fit for the battle".
Or, Canadian Chan "I shall win over Plushenko without any quadruples, the Gold is as good as mine, Plushenko can't compete for any medal this time."
The quote of Lysichek "I have won because if the matter was only to do the 4-revolution jump we would compete for 10 seconds not for 4 minutes" is from the same category.
Skaters bla-bla. Do the 4-revolution jump once, say it's a junk matter - then we shall listen with genuine interest.
The other "experts", the members of the Olympic committees, are simply a no-go, talking heads, there on business. They exactly "talk the talk", protecting their country interests.
So, who are the experts, is indeed an interesting question, I mean, un-biased experts.
Judges? Since the USA drove through the idea of the anonimous judges - three ha ha. I wouldn't give a fig for their objectivity behind the curtain. In burka. The attempt on the "objectivity" by tossing in the computer random score extraction has also failed (in case you don't know it was practiced as well, but then dusted over). The current system 7 judges - 2 (for pairs) and 9 judges - 2 (for men) is also a crappy scheme, IMO, as the decision falls into 5 countries' hands or 7 countries' hands only. Compared to the 12 and 10 countries' base, much wider, that it used to be before.
Figure skating is a highly political issue, it shouldn't have a short judges' panel.
The current way, when the top grade given and the smallest grade given are minused out of the 7 or 9 initial judges' marks, and they are not informed later on whose grades vanished in the final count :o))))
reminds me of the execution by the shot out, when the platoon doesn't know whose bullets are real and whose are false, to relieve them of the "killerr" guilt later. :o)))) Give them a hope that "it wasn't me who killed the guy".
I am sure it helps judges' own self-esteem feeling, but hardly contributes to the objectivity in scoring the event.
And mind it - that's all American inventions that Russians hate.
We were and are for the wide judge panel and open scores - which country gave what to who, and no excuses "oh it wasn't me" or "it's a secret".
As minimum, their own colleagues are then able to estimate the judges themselves. At the moment, by the US system, there is no control on the judges panel.
Given the above, choosing among the skaters, coaches, association functionaries and judges - I'd still listen I think to what the coaches say. Russian and Japanese. Lambiel's. And whoever looked strong of the latest performers. Because, even that the coaches work for a particular country, who pays their buck, and are also subjective then, of course, still, out of their hands emereges something practical for all to see - champions or, "as good as a champion" :o))))) - On a shiny day.
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Chan's 4th level of difficulty, the multiplication factor, for the sequance of steps.
Lysachek got the 1st level for it. :o))))
Pluschenko - 2nd. :o))))
Chan has got 4th - which none of the skaters in the history of world skating was observed so far as having :o)))).
Question: Do you remember his brilliant "sequance of steps"?
???
Anybody, but the judges? eh? Don't hear? Someone?
That's your US judging wonder system in action.
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I'm repeating myself, one post flew away and I wrote it anew. Sorry.
Anyway, soon we'll have another figure-skating "event" to discuss.
I wish we have one without a "controversy", simply to be happy and to watch, but appears it's not doomed to be.
With these "costumes", how proprietory Australians suddenly are! :o))))
Who would have thought, that the tam-tam sound is all rights reserved and patented.
Why won't Russia sew Red October hunt movie-makers, for violating our precious national costume code of ethics :o)))), namely that we don't wear T-shirts and hats with ears when in a submarine :o))))
A good point for a scandal would also be vodka - jesus Christ! how much we are offended that whoever only does not make crap in the world and calls it "vodka". Why we have never thought about it before?
Strictly speaking, a "vodka" is a wheat or rye based drink, made on fresh water from 3 Russian rivers in the vicinity of Moscow. That's it.
Any other distilled, purified, tap or whatever water does not fit. Even when it is Russian. To say nothing of potato schnaps :o))))) and other, "improvements" :o)))) to the scheme.
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Here is one "expert" who seems to be thinking in English what I am thinking in Russian, don't know who he is but similar thoughts.
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/figure_skating/news?slug=es-thoughts021810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
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Alexey Nikolaevich Mishin (Plushenko's coach)
"This is nonsense! 16 years ago, in 1994, Alexey Urmanov won Gold by making a quadruple as an exception. But by 1998, in Nagano, Ilya Kulik couldn't have won without the quadruple already, as most we doing it, and had to include it the last minute decision. We are kicked back to the condition of 20 years ago."
Russian Olympic Committee, 19 Feb. 3:45 am
"We took the decision that we shall not protest Plushenko's Silver in IOC".
Evgeny Plushenko placed an ultimatum to the Russian Olympic Committee, which approx. translates "I won't be back in Sochi unless you succeed in campaigning for the change of the judging rules, which ought to be changed".
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Too bad, so sad;
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/vancouver/figureskating/2010-02-19-mens-figure-skating_N.htm
"American Evan Lysacek wins gold in Olympics figure skating"
None of the six finalists scored lower on transitions then Plushenko.
As you said WA, it's all these little details that seem to matter.
You still have more H-bombs than America. Doesn't that make you sleep well at night :-) Better luck next time.
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WA;;
If your government feels depressed after losing in figure skating first to China and then to America, they can regain some sense of power by cutting off oil and gas to Europe for a few weeks just for the hell of it. It's still winter. They don't have to suffer alone when they can make Europe suffer too. They say misery loves company.
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Well, Mavrelius, at least you are able to put your ostrich head out for a sec, and chirrup something. In reply to my sequance 157-184.
If you are checking the weather - it's not yet time. Get back into the dug-out.
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The "small details", you said, that matter?
Hello everybody;
Mavrelius - and the US media - calim that the current Gold holder, the world champion in men's figure skating, certain Lysichek -
is best in the world in the "small details", that's why "he won".
And Pluschenko failed on these "small details", he can only do jumps.
Right?
So, let's glance at these "small details", the second part of the score.
The first being, I am sorry to remind all, "the jumps"./ Elements.
Top 5
Russia Pluschenko
USA Lysychek
Japan Takahashi
Switzerland Lambiel
Canada Chan
Program components
(Factor 2.0 - to cut it short, with all)
Choreography/Composition 8.35
Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.95
Interpretation 8.40
Performance/Execution 8.50
Skating Skills 8.20
Factored Program Components 82.80
Choreography/Composition 8.20
Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.25
Interpretation 8.75
Performance/Execution 8.80
Skating Skills 8.40
Factored Program Components 82.80
Choreography/Composition 8.40
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.15
Interpretation 8.65
Performance/Execution 8.50
Skating Skills 8.55
Factored Program Components 84.50
Choreography/Composition 8.45
Transitions/Linking Footwork 8.05
Interpretation 8.70
Performance/Execution 8.30
Skating Skills 8.30
Factored Program Components 83.60
Choreography/Composition 8.25
Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.95
Interpretation 8.25
Performance/Execution 8.20
Skating Skills 8.35
Factored Program Components 82.00
I omitted the names - find the US world champion in the "small details", the ones that make the performance so pleasant to look at - in the top five' scores.
Make you choice. Where is our current wonder - between 82.00, 82.80, 82.80, 83.60, 84.50.
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Another good idea, a hint, to locate where is the US Gold 2010 holder, is to look at a simple straightforward parameter.
"Skating skills".
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GH1618, Starbuck11, MA-0.56 and -0.40 (that's where Lusicek .... up
his combination jumps, Axel and Toeloop)(it's not only that he can't jump quads, he can't do a combination of 2 jumps in a row)
You simply fell a victim of the US, Canadian, and Telegraph propaganda :o)))) Ango-Saxon world, let's say, propaganda.
The view that "Lyscuchek skates flawless and is, how to say, "good on ice", "but then he has good skating skills, good in the program compnents, in transitions, in presentation, choreography" etc.
- even without the "tricky" elements, and "it's more important to do simple things clean than to do tricky things, that's why he won" -
is a myth, not reflected in his scores for the programmes.
The judges put Lysachek over Pluschenko for jumps, that's why Russia is raging.
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So, Mavrelius, change the tune. From now on Lysacek is the strongest in the world in jumps, remember. You are singing a wrong song.
Jumps - that's what is America's men strongest point, in which they excel. Do the trend-setting, work as a role model for Russia, China, Japan, and all.
Nobody could do the doubles and triples as good as Lycachek.
Nobody could do jump combinations as well as Lysachek either.
It is a current golden standard - to attempt to fall in two simple jumps' combo. Twice.
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And how interesting it will be tonight.
As Mavrelius puts it, the land of figure-skating losers competing. (With each other, Russians with Russians).
Not even Mishin and Tarasova clash (as in Plushenko and Lysachek case) - but far worse!
Same coaches, Linichuk and Karponosova, training both the US and the Russian pair!
Wishing good luck, so to say, sending on ice, first one of their pair, then the other.
Oh, who is the third claimant coach, let me have a look?
I know the answer, just don't remember the name. For there is only one answer, if a pair has aspirations for a gold.
Ah, Marina Zueva, training the Canadian pair. 12 years already, the site tells me, the Canadian pair is with the two non-changeable Russian coaches, Shpilband and Zueva. Must be a hard case, or is it that we are losing the coaching qualification :o))))))
Coaches Linichuk and Karponosova were asked by media yesterday, how do they manage to combine, the US and the Russian pairs, both. Isn't there a clash of interests, and how do the boys and girls communicate with each other. Don't they quarrel, and, the main thing - why do both pairs trust their coaches, and don't leave them, to get separate ones for each other competitors?
The answer was short, "they don't meet, train on different days of the week". :o))))
The answer to "why won't either pair get themselves another coach" was not given. But all understand "why", there isn't a choice.
China bought stock and pile of USSR coaches, investing into sport as a state effort. America and Russia have to share the precious heavy-weights left over.
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As the US has received its Gold already, by judges awarding 1.3 higher mark for jumps to Lysachek, over Pluschenko
One would think the task of the event tonight will be focused on Gold to Canada.
So it is Zueva and Shpilband , versus Linichuk and Karponosovv.
That is Tessa Virtue (the TV presenter beauty gil), versus Oksana Domnina.
Virtue I know what it means. "Domnina" means simply "home".
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Correction, the Original Dance isn't tonight, but tomorrow.
Even better, more time to dwell upon the mens' skating wonders.
Russia is "dwelling upon", by collecting internet signatures for the protest to the Int'l Skating Association. A chap from a sports' blog, some teacher or mechanic, forgot, from Siberia, started a signature collecting blog.
____________________
Meanwhile, I am worried for Lysachek's - not jumps, or athletic condition (proven as good as gold by the judges), but for his mental condition. He gave an interview where said plans to visit Russia.
Said he is disappointed with the Pluschenko's reaction to his victory, because "Evegeny was an example to me and I thought he will be happy for me. And apparently he is not :o("
(We all wept.)
Said "I am going to visit Russia, always wanted to, but don't know if they'll issue me a visa now. It may be that I will not be welcome in Russia, in the near time? Sorry, joking."
A difficult case, indeed.
I think it's alright, if Lysichek visits Russia. In the near future, or in 10 years. We have good doctors, and may be someone will be able to help.
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Sorry, forgot to place the answers for posts 188 and 189.
In the scores for Factored Programme Components, those transitions, "small details", the pleasantry of the performance - the world Olympic champion-2010 is hiding behind the number 82.8
84.5 Takahashi
83.6 Lambiel
82.8 Plushenko
82.8 Lysachek
80.0 Chan
:o(
How damn hard it is to find the best men skater! Incredible.
But possible. The champion is the one who does it as well as Pluschenko, but JUMPS better.
As to the "Skating Skills" score that's an easy riddle.
Lysichek's is simply the worst.
8.55 Takahashi
8.40 Pluschenko
8.35 Lambiel
8.30 Chan
8.20 Lysichek
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Oh, a new Lysachek interview! And I thought our favourite is Ukraine.
Lysachek had an enlightement, that nasty Evgeny did not give due credit to his outstanding performance, because he simply missed it! Never saw.
"Pluschenko arrived to the arena last, because his turn was last, and was getting ready - simply missed to see how I skate. That's why he is not happy for me, because, if he saw it..."
Mavrelius, I think that's the brilliantine. That wax for the hair, the gloss, to blame. May be, too much of it. May be, it's getting through the sculp.
On the other hand, of course, I mean, the chap is American. But it can't explain all?
We should work on it. Since the gloss is the distinctive advantage, the recepie must be obtained somehow. I am sure the best coaches in China, Japan and Russia will be working on it, until some professor Big Head or an egg-head individual other, at our respective countries, comes up with the secret. Olympic games have ended, preparations already began for the next ones, in Sochi. A short break, for skaters - and - back to work.
Without the gloss secret - forget about it.
I am sure all the skaters will focus their efforts on it, in the coming 4 years, to get ready for the next Olymoics in Sochi. Working day and night, on the gloss.
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Dane gold.
Will go walk the dog.
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Russians in blogs are asking each other, if someone knows English enough to write a good hearty letter to the Olympic Committee.
I think I might qualify.
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:o)
"This is interesting.
Meeting the media after the awards ceremony Lusik was so happy that attempted a 4-revolution jump at which point on his breast cracked the golden medal."
:o))))))))))
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I like this picture.
http://evgeni-plushenko.com/
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Alice,
Im actually sorry that Pluschenko didn't win..why? Because you care so much and I do not care about mens figure skating--just womens figure skating.
That is true..if 4 turns is harder perhaps there should be less stress on perfection--women cant even do triple ..sow cows (sauchaus)? anyway too bad ..I'm sorry for St Petersburg today.
OOO that mirror ....ouchie!
DAVID
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"Only in Russia Parliament's decision on evaluating the work of a whole State Ministry (Ministry of Sport) can depend on the single man performance in one event".
:o)))))
Yes, David; it's a bad combination - together un-fair and wanted the most.
What did I say after Kawaguti? "bad but what to do. Fair." In one post.
As to women's single - you can have it.
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there is only one video in you tube fitting the condition :o)))))
dial
sierrafromrussia
who placed it. will pop up a girl's face, second from the top, 2:31 minutes. it is worthy the effort.
given the ideosycncrasia? of the moderation, the allergy - to the free and un-hindered sharing of music.
:o)))))
"And, as a last thing - I will say.
Fare well. Do not promise love
Am I getting down insane - or - do I ascend
To the highest shining tops of the insanity?
Still, as a last thing - I shall say.
The temple curiously continues with its small work
But arms already fallen
And, as a birds' flock - side-ways in zig-zag there leave me
last small sounds and rustle
But, as a last thing, I shall say
Sounds and rustles
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... the way you loved - you've touched, by lips
Death.. oh, that does n't matter...
The way you loved - you've ruined me!
But ruined me... so.. un-skillfully ..... :o)))))))
So, as a last thing - I shall say!
Great poetry is great because universal! fitting all Russian occasions
(in this case it's Bella Akhmadulina)
anyway organisers, who sold Evgeny down the river, now plead him to stay for that last day show dance or something and hold on with Germany.
Though his wife, who promised him twins, is against as she is more interested to have a husband on two legs, as more practical idea for raising two children in Russia.
If he stays I doubt it will be something as happy as this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3wPkYOyx7o
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Of course the European way of life is under threat. It is under threat from the cancer that is eating out the heart of Europe, called the EU for short. Unelected nonentity dictators, an unelected administocracy of self paying, self promoting, self perpetuating, unwanted twerps called the commission, a set of rules intended to make every step away from democracy irreversible: that is the threat to the European way of life.
Rollo Reid
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Who the hell votes for M.E.P's then?
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.....and the Governments who make up the Council?
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Who voted for our president? Who voted for our foreign minister? Who voted for our 27 commissioners? How many EU directives are scrutinised bbefore being adopted as British laws? (20% of 'em). And how many are reversed (None). Which parties lied to us about the Lisbon Treaty being different from the Constitution? Which party acted in two opposite directions in the Commons and the Lords to avoid having the referendum they had promised us? (The lib dems, if you'd care to check). And why were we not allowed to have this promised referendum? Because it was perfectly clear that the British would have voted against it, as did the Durtch and the French (who were also prevented from having a referendum on the treaty for the same reason). The EU is as democratic as the soviet union and is based on the same principle: a Politburo/Commission of selected individuals and a Duma/ Parliament to rubber stamp them into law; and a Council of Ministers, whose main job is to apply the ratchet to snare us into ever closer EU domination.
Rollo Reid
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In your fantasy, would be the short answer ...
There is no EU foreign minister, but there is a Vice-President of the European Commission, who is the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. Reporting to both the European Parliament (elected by european citizens) and the heads of states in the European Council (by national citizens, directly or indirectly).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Representative_of_the_Union_for_Foreign_Affairs_and_Security_Policy
There is no EU president.
Though, there are :
1) a President of the European Commission, reporting to MEPs, Heads of States (European Council) and ministers (Council of ministers)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Commission
2) a President of the European Parliament (or Speaker of the Parliament), elected as MEP by European citizens, and elected as president by fellow MEPs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
3) a President of the European Council (or Secretary), whose responsibility is to chair meetings, reporting to Heads of States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Council
The Commissioners are civil servants to the Heads of States (who nominates them) and the European Parliament (who approves or rejects them).
Do all civil servants, from top to down the last clerk, in British ministries get elected by the UK people ? And does having ministers whose time of service last barely more than a year provide much efficiency (both democratically and administratively) in policy-making ?
That would be assuming you are interested in facts, rather than just venting your bile ...
Best regards,
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American way of life, British way of life – ways of life come and ways of life go.
Members of the EU should do well to think of the European way of life - but not quite like the President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy.
Van Rompuy’s fears that the European way of life is under threat is not helpful, nor is his supposition the European way of life cannot be sustained in a Europe with sluggish growth.
I prefer the optimistic approach of President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso when he talked about "making Europe a resource-efficient, inclusive, social market economy - reflecting what makes us special, i.e. the European way of life".
Outsiders, including me, define the European way of life as strong social welfare, high public spending, generous pension provisions and robust safety nets = a civilized society.
So the EU is facing difficult times – like most of the world. So the recession wasn’t voluntary. What is voluntary is: THE OVER ALL REACTION OF THE EU MEMBERS. This reaction can be self-centered, buck-passing and small-minded; or it can become generous, fact-finding, research oriented, and even brilliant in how it copes with that which it did not voluntarily request.
This is a moment of great challenge; it demands great leadership, but first and foremost it needs financial expertise - which the EU, especially Brussels - has in several economic specialists. The causes of the recession must be correctly defined, segregated, analyzed, and decisions made what to do about them.
Okay, Greece got “taken” by Goldman Sachs, but don’t pat yourselves on the back and hold your heads too high because there is a whole range of so-called STUPID countries that also got taken (STUPID COUNTRIES = Spain, Turkey, UK, Portugal, Italy and Dubai).
So instead of quibbling about a Greek bail-out, or some other small financial game of peanuts, take the bull by the horns, have your accounts audited, as well as your accounting practices. You will find euros floating on bubbles, derivative damage - awful, convoluted, ugly financial crap. Find it and isolate it.
The unregulated mess that the United States of America has dumped into the EU is in my opinion, very likely criminal; after, so many countries are being destablized. There may be a legal recourse, or even several legal recourses.
Yes, austerity may be the short term solution.
But the entire EU must stick together, cease casting blaim, get to the bottom of this ugly financial cesspool and decide on effective and efficient action.
Deficits may be challenging to the European way of life, but nothing can conquer the European way of life – unless European countries refuse to work together in the course of saving it.
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Virtually every country in the world faces budget deficits, tight fiscal control, and cuts in services to level the economic playing field. Where is the similar responsibility from Brussels - the cuts in expenses for bureaucrats and MEPs, the freezing of salaries and cuts in subsidies to incompetent and thieving farmers? I am a great fan of the EU, but it is time the gravy train came to a halt for the Eurocracy. Now is the perfect time to take all these hangers-on to task. To make them justify their existence and get rid of those that cannot. In a word, the EU must downsize and reduce the drain on member states.
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