Climate change and big figures
The figure "$100bn" slips easily off the tongue. It is headline-catching. If there is a climate deal in Copenhagen, that figure may have helped break the deadlock. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the United States backed this vast fund to help the poorer countries adapt and to counter climate change.
While $100bn is big money, others had bigger figures in mind. The EU had suggested that $150bn would be needed each year by 2020 to help the developing world.
Some of the poorer nations wanted even more, perhaps $600bn.
These figures can only be estimates. No government or international agency can accurately cost the effects of climate change. They are guesses in the dark.
Yet $100bn would represent the biggest transfer of money from the rich to the developing world for a single issue. It is not precisely costed or matched against forthcoming projects or divided between countries. It is simply the price to get the developing world to agree to limit its emissions. It is a bigger figure than the total value of all development aid this year.
Yet history suggests it is wise to be wary of big figures. Firstly, where will the money come from? The United States is likely to chip in 20%. The EU has suggested its contribution will be somewhere between 22bn and 50bn euros. Now that is a wide gap. European countries have not decided which of them will pay what. Some eastern European countries are resisting making commitments when they are struggling to contain carbon emissions themselves.
Then there is the unsettled question of where this money will come from. There will be a divide between public funding and private sources. The US indicates that perhaps as much as 30% of its contribution will come from private sources. But which private sources and what will be their interest in contributing to such a fund?
The recent record of commitments made at summits being honoured is not good. I attended an emergency meeting in Jakarta after the Asian summit. Money was promised and leaders felt good. Many of the promises were not honoured.
In 2005 the G20 countries promised to raise aid for Africa by about $30bn a year. It still has not happened. And rich countries are having to pay down their debts and raise taxes. (The Washington Post reports that in the United States there is broad opposition to spending taxpayer's money to encourage the developing world to curtail its emissions).
Many other questions follow: What are the projects that will get priority funding? Who will determine which country gets what? What is the formula? Who will ensure the money is spent wisely? Who will hold the rich countries to their pledges?
In the short-term there is a proposed $10bn fast-track fund to help poorer countries deal with climate change problems between now and 2012. How that money will be spent also remains unclear.
What the big figures represent is guilt and recognition that for decades the rich world has been harming and warming the planet. They may be fuzzy figures, but they may just have persuaded the developing world that the West will carry the burden for cleaning up the planet.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~50~RS~)
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I am all for saving our environment but I am concerned as to where this money will be channelled. How many African dictators and company friends of politicians will get fat on this?
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And what about in the UK? Does anyone even care whether there is opposition to spending taxpayer's money to encourage the developing world to curtail its emissions? Or will we be forced into it by the EU? What about the problem of the UK not having any money; being in a massive amount of debt in fact?
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I also agree with #1: how will we know the money is spent on reducing emissions? It seems that unless the money goes directly into projects such as solar/wind power stations, there is no way to avoid corruption. And if the developed world is going to dictate where their money is spent (which is fair enough, it's their money after all), there are likely to be more accusations of high-handedness.
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Speaking with friends and family - we just can't see the logic in all of these meetings and the spending of masses of money we do not have. Cleary peak-oil has happened or is close by, the global economy is slowing down and new technology will evolve that is more efficient and will address many climate concerns.
We are thinking that the Copenhagen business is just a diversion from the real problems of the world. The UK is broke, yet we will be handing money to countries who we will need to lend us money. It's not making any sense whatsoever. We don't disagree with the climate change problem -but really don't believe throwing money at it will solve it. We need to scrap the 3rd runnway at Heathrow and stop paying people to scrap cars etc. Anything else is just hypocracy and the public isn't buying it one bit.
We also have to give up the pretence that we are a rich, powerful and productive country - nothing could be further from the truth whilst we adhear to our current economic and overseas policies.
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"What the big figures represent is guilt and recognition that for decades the rich world has been harming and warming the planet. They may be fuzzy figures, but they may just have persuaded the developing world that the West will carry the burden for cleaning up the planet."
Although humans have and are certainly harming the planet, I am not entirely certain the warming part of it is valid. Too many lies, misrepresentations and rubbish from both sides clouding the issue to really know. What concerns me is that if the MMCC lot are shown to be a bunch of swindlers and crooks, then real environmental concerns and efforts will be fatally crippled as well.
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2. At 11:13am on 18 Dec 2009, perspicuously wrote:
'And what about in the UK? Does anyone even care whether there is opposition to spending taxpayer's money to encourage the developing world to curtail its emissions?'
I do, let’s say our contribution to the £100 billion is say £1.5 billion
The average cost of heart by pass surgery in the UK is around £20,000, and the NHS needs more money to treat more people.
£1,500,000,000 (£1.5 billion) = 75,000 peoples lives.
Quite a high price to pay if you ask me.
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You don’t need to be a big cheese to show world leaders the human cost of climate change. Oxfam supporters at Copenhagen are getting the message across – the ingenious, persistent, vocal and feisty way! http://www.oxfam.org.uk/get_involved/campaign/climate_change/
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I think we have more chance of discovering a massive uranium deposit in the Pennines than we have of Gordon remembering it is not his money to throw away. Socialists... the problem is they eventually run out of other people's money.
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The problem i have with this, and the earlier response to the credit crunch, is a sense that politicians only feel they are solving problems if they are throwing large sums of money around. Hence, these 'races of billions' where each national leader seems to feel a need to outbid the others to demonstrate he or she takes the issue seriously. I ask myself how many people ever turned off a light-bulb because of the Kyoto treaty? Or said that pollution affecting their neighbourhood water supply should not be cleared up until the Indians promise to clean up the Ganges? I can't help but feel that what is needed is practical regulation, like pricing signals or local environmental standards, that would impact the way real people conserve energy and care for their local environment in their daily lives. And more free trade, and aid, so that the Indians, Chinese, etc. can grow the wealth to raise their own standards. I don't think the politicians outbidding one another will change real people's behaviour.
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Once again the British taxpayer along with many other badly represented taxpayers are going to find ourselves filling the Swiss bank accounts of various mini dictators in Africa ,Asia and anywhere else that sounds remote enough to be reliant on our charity. Before any cash is handed over, it should be made clear that any use of said cash must be governed and overseen by representatives of the people giving the money.Though in the case of Britain, anyone appointed by this government to oversee expenditure would be a total waste of space, better to just flush the cash away now.
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@6. Dempster wrote:
"I do, let’s say our contribution to the £100 billion is say £1.5 billion
The average cost of heart by pass surgery in the UK is around £20,000, and the NHS needs more money to treat more people.
£1,500,000,000 (£1.5 billion) = 75,000 peoples lives.
Quite a high price to pay if you ask me. "
Lets say greenhouse gases run wildly out of control, all the worst case scenarios come to fruition and the atmosphere goes nuts turning the Earth into another Venus
All known life in the Universe = dead.
Seems like a bargain to me.
N.B. That scenario as far as I know is verging on impossible, although technically could happen. Pointless scare tactics are pointless.
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#11 Not quite sure where you are going with that Benefactor.
Broon burning £1.5B of our money... almost certain.
Your apocalypse... almost impossible.
Admittedly what Broon is doing with our money is scary but sadly true.
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11. At 12:29pm on 18 Dec 2009, Benefactor wrote:
'Seems like a bargain to me'
Well OK, but I guess someone waiting for a heart by pass op, probably wouldn't agree with you.
In fact they’d probably disagree quite strongly I suspect.
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#11. "All known life in the Universe = dead."
Oh don't worry there will be plenty of life left on Earth, not sure if humans are included.
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People die. Fact of life. A lot of these deaths are 'avoidable' - if there was enough money. In this country it tends to be NHS money that's lacking, resulting in avoidable deaths; in the developing world it's as likely to be money to buy food / basic medicines / a house in a neighbourhood that's less likely to get flooded. There is a limited supply of money in the world (unless the governments just print loads out, I'm a little confused on this point). So the question is, where are the priorities? Who should our government be putting first? And I think most taxpayers would agree that as it's our money (and the majority of us work pretty hard to earn that money), we should be the priority, i.e. our health system, medical research, etc.
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When I am looking at that picture of Clinton for some reason Chucky keeps popping into my head.
But back on topic...
"The United States is likely to chip in 20%. The EU has suggested its contribution will be somewhere between 22bn and 50bn euros."
At least the EU can take the lead on something...even if it is frittering our taxes away.
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Is this just another conference where big promises are made and then this time next year we find that few, if any, of this promises have been kept.
I still keep asking where this money is going to be spent?
Where are the projects to reduce global emissions?
Who is to receive this money?
Does the tax-payer just hand over this money to other countries in the hope that they will do something positive with it?
Who is going to monitor the spending?
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I have to agree with post #1 here to a very large degree. It is valid to ask who will hold the developed coutries accountable to pay the money but also who will hold the developing countries accountable to spend the money on projects that reduce greenhouse gasses. Because if the developed countries don't give the money or if the developing countries spend the money on "environmentaly friendly" presidential jets the net result is the same.
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How surprising to see the BBC practicing the art of misdirection and fulfilling their appointed role as lacky to the elite.
This has nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with financial kleptocacy. Nobody cares what people in the third world do with the money - if they ever get it in the first place.
Western governments certainly don´t care. They are only offering the money in the first place because they have been instructed to do so by financial oligarchs.
The whole idea is that governments that have not been captured by oligarchs are simply bribed to sign up to a new gargantuan swathe of derivatives.
They are quite open about it:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/marketsmag/mm_0110_story1.html
If you are concerned about climate change just buy less things and consume less things. It is easy, but derivatives will not help you to do these things.
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'100 billion', '150 billion', '600 billion', even more, 'per year'...
Oh how the minds of the vested interests must salivate in anticipation of all this Tax-payer largesse!
That the Maldives will still drown (according to predictions) along with many a lovely and not-so golden spot from all the Continents will only be slightly reduced as a Global tragedy by the knowledge that all those leaders-executives-consultancy experts of 'big-Governments/big-Businesses' will have made a Financial killing the like of which has not been seen since a Pope drew a line on a Map and carved up South and Central America!
If there is any person out there with money to spare, put your money into businesses 'researching'/'developing'/'analysing'/'delivering' all that 'new technology' for the 'environment'.
Keep your shares in a portfolio called Copenhagen Cryostat Climate Con!
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The Blog Photo reminds me so much a scene and characters from the first Star Wars film I think the article deserves something more appropriate.
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# 12. Freeman wrote:
"#11 Not quite sure where you are going with that Benefactor.
Broon burning £1.5B of our money... almost certain.
Your apocalypse... almost impossible.
Admittedly what Broon is doing with our money is scary but sadly true."
...almost... I'm not particularly willing to take the risk, even for the less extreme (and much more likely) scenario's. As such, I don't think its a waste of money. The poor countries actually do have a valid point this time (unlike much of the crap they spout off), it is the wests fault and for a long time till they can develop it will continue to be the wests fault (and china). Quite rightly they want living standards like ours, wealth like us, etc. and the quickest, cheapest and easiest way to achieve the energy required is through the mass burning of fossil fuels. If we want to avoid that then its quite right that we help them develop alternate sources.
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# 13. Dempster wrote:
"Well OK, but I guess someone waiting for a heart by pass op, probably wouldn't agree with you.
In fact they’d probably disagree quite strongly I suspect."
I never said that people waiting for surgery should die. The "oh this money could be used to do such and such" is very misleading. In fact, can you back up your claim and provide a source that there are 75'000 people awaiting bypasses a year.
I assume that if all that money was spent on heart surgery and then Climate change drowns large swathes of the UK and freezes the rest your going to complain that the money should have been spent differently because now millions are dead?
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I really cannot believe that so many people are just flat out opposed to this, you really must live on a different planet. A much healthier one.
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Will money talk in climate change?
It's critical to support the climate victims, but what can really help curb climate change is : be Frugal and Shifting to Plant-base diets.
Many of my friends in USA say the American just do not care about climate change, they do nothing about recycling, composting, being frugal...
USA has to inform their own people of shifting to a climate-friendly lifestyle first, otherwise no matter how big the money slips off their tongue, won't help.
...American consume three times more meat(per person) than the world average, if they can cut it down, even just half of it, USA target of GHG reduction,DONE!
…imagine: rainforest restored instead of deforested; hungry fed instead of dead hunger; fish inhabiting in Gulf of Mexico instead of a dead zone…
All these may come true only when meat-eater countries eat less meat, and the vast lands occupied by animal agricultures today be released for nature to restore.
More may see Worldwatch latest mag.(PDF--online) & this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwSO7qqgHa8
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I saw in the current Discovery magazine (look online) that there is a planet with oceans and an atmosphere discovered by astronomers (from somewhere) that exists (not earth) within viewing distance (in our corner of the Milky Way. Is this true?
I need to go there and see but hmmmm, there may be a long term solution. If the planet is only 4 to 10 light years away.:)
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Re #24 and the link.
Despite the plea on the pics and your own thoughts on the 'mysterious' planet-suns-moons, but the whole lot really are fakes.
This particular photo-trock has actually been used in previous efforts to announce another world 'is out there': It isn't.
At least not this side of David's 10 light years!
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Sorry, couldnt find the article on the website. So, I'll go buy that magazine and read what it says.
BUT, why does this summit need to produce anyting at all? Why can't each country just say what is willing to do, and yearly the countries could meet and review what was said and how to legally bind these nations to their statements?
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The NHS is sacred in the UK--like social security and medicare are touchy subjects in the USA.
I'm betting that reality will strike when all these politicians come back home, and THEN, they'll get an earful.
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Now, I'm going to go read a smut magazine about how celebrities live their lives (oooeeeee). For a change of pace,
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BY THE YEAR [2020]
[EU on Hook for Empire Default]
Hillary Diane Rodham-Clinton can let the figure of [$100B/€69.7B], One-Hundred-Billion Dollars / Sixty-Nine-Point-Seven Billion Euros, with the American-Israeli Empire taxpayer to be on the hook for a [20%] Twenty-Percent Chunk of the Change , since it is not Clintons to give, as The Empire is sinking into a Third-World Demographic Culture. The Dollar will no longer be the Worlds Base Currency, and will no longer have nearly the value that it has had in the past, is sinking now, and will be sunk, by [2020], [NATO] The North Atlantic Treaty Organization will no longer exist. And the statement that yet history suggests it is wise to be wary of big figures, is a very serious understatement in the era of the Empires Decline, into a Third World Status on the North American Continent. The [20%] Twenty-percent figure is not realistic from a culture in decline, that figure to be met by real value will be a massive drain as the Dollar devalues. The Dollar at today market value is worth only [€0.69] Zero-Point-Sixty-Nine Euros, but by [2020], it may take [$5] Five Dollars to equal the same [€0.69] Zero-Point-Sixty-Nine Euros, which means it cost the Empire Taxpayer [5] Five times as much. And, when the Empire defaults on its commitment then the [EU] European Union will find itself on the hook for the default amount.
[Only a Decade Away]
The damage is done, and at this point the laying of the blame for it to any one or particular nation, group of nations or regions is too late. But the idea of the Community of Nations to rely on fuzzy figures, at best and then to really count on an Empire which will no longer exist upon the assurances of the failed Empires, failed State Department Head, the [EU] should really before it commits to any multi-generational economic outlays, understand that at this time there are [NO] international agreements, [NO] commitments, [NOTHING] that can be held certain when they include the Empire, the [EU] would be walking on quick-sand in any such arrangements. Hillary Diane Rodham-Clinton suffers from a [1960’s] mindset, of Empire, entering a [2020] world of the reality of the Fall of Empire. By the year [2020] the [EU] will be on the hook for the clean up of the planet along with dealing with the fall out from the fall of the American-Israeli Empire, the figures, the sums, the year [2020] is only a decade away.
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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22. At 5:55pm on 18 Dec 2009, Benefactor
Ok fair comment, well how about NHS dentistry, or more to the point what’s left of it.
To those who can no longer obtain dental treatment on the NHS, well you could if they didn’t pay out a £1.5 billion for climate change.
Or how about hospitals
You could build a few hospitals with it.
£2,250 per sqm x 20,000 sqm = £45,000,000 each
You could in fact build 33 and still have £15,000,000 spare
Lots of ways to spend £1.5 Billion, perhaps the people should be given a vote on it, I wonder what they'd pick?
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To David (28) and Dempster (31):
Investing money to prevent global warming isn't away from services, it is a away from material products. For example, when we give money as aid to for example build hydro or nuclear energy plants, or wind and solar plants, what in reality we are doing is diverting raw materials and end products of our manufacturing industries to third world countries instead of these sames resources and manufacturing capacity being spend to build luxury cars or bigger apartments etc..
Now I have always wanted to have a Porsche, but I could also settle for BMW, actually I could settle for Volkswagen, and maybe to a small Polo or Golf even. That is the real price that we are going to have to pay to fight the climate change, we have to settle for less.
The other thing that we should be talking instead of talking how much money and how much comes from who, we should concentrate on asking what we are going to do with all that money? How many wind turbines? How many solar cells? How many hydro plants? How many nuclear plants? What I would really like to see as an citizen, is a solid plan that says we are going build this stuff which is going have an effect like this to climate change and effects something like this to my material wellbeing.
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Id settle for a VW or a Hundai:) But, if we spent 1/2 as a nation on defense here in (the) USA, think of what that 500 billion dollar could be spent on?
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Jukka_Rohilla
Re #32
Hang on to your hat!
I actually agree with you!
Whilst having enormous doubts about the whole Global Warming-Environment issue from the perspective of how much of it is by the cycle of 'natural evolution' of Earth and how much is 'man-made' I have no doubt at all the Planet is at a crucial tipping point of sorts ecologically.
Human progression has grossly over-indulged in those items that are non-essential and in so doing has catastrophically over-exploited the earth's natural resources (which of course includes 'climate pattern' as well as water, coal, iron ore, oil, gas etc.).
Why does anyone need a motor car that exceeds 60mph/96kph when nowhere logically is any speed required above that to get from 'a' to 'b' or 'z' for that matter? Why does any pop star, super-model, politician, executive etc. need a personal jet when there are passenger airlines?
The list is endless of useful products that have been super-sized, super-luxuriated, super-imposed etc. on a greedy and often thoughtless 'consumer public' for no good reason at all.
Why hasn't all such manufacturing-economics-of-the-madhouse nonsense been stopped already?
Clearly, the example should come from those foaming at the mouth Poltical Leaders presently spouting off in Copenhagen about what all the ordinary folk will need to do: Maybe, if everyone of them left Copenhagen by Public Transport, and yes I do mean Obama too, then people might start to take it seriously.
Frankly, I find it nauseating that Obama turned up in Copenhagen and had 3 limousines and about 20 outrider vehicles - - yes, the 'man' is a target in many ways, but so are we all in this Climate Change scenario and I cannot help feeling he too is divorced from reality by the sheer overwhelming paraphaelia that seems to accompany him and everyone of these politicians.
If every Politician at Westminster, Washington, Paris, Delhi, Beijing, Rio, Lagos, Canberra etc. were made to carry their own trash out in separate bags to the various refuse disposal bins for a week they might get some genuine idea about how pathetic most of them are in the eyes of the public when they make these grandiose statements and sit down to 5, 6, 7 course luxury meals straight afterwards!
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the necklace is very wonderful and becoming Hillary. (sorry all :o)
I wonder what can it be, rubies this size don't exist, granates will make it too heavy, simply plastic? not ecological, LOL Or is it, these days? :o) Can be dark reddish amber but then it'll be very rare this tint, if existing at all.
:o)
Sorry, can't concentrate on the climate. So far seems working, by the way, warm Novemebr in St. Pete/Moscow is now compensated by awful cold December, so, I think while it swings back and forward, compensating for the under-weather :o) "over-weather", in total making year average - means the dear planet is managing somehow. :o) In swings, though, right. Must be, poor thing, with dificulty :o
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5 freeman
"Too many lies, misrepresentations and rubbish from both sides clouding the issue to really know. What concerns me is that if the MMCC lot are shown to be a bunch of swindlers and crooks, then real environmental concerns and efforts will be fatally crippled as well."
Freeman makes a good point.
However it is worth pointing out that just because a few charlatans jump on board the bandwagon, it may still be going in the right direction.
I made this point on the America blog on the same subject - the problem is that the politicians are looking for a quick-fix and a photo-op, whereas what is needed is a rational long-term strategy to reduce overall pollution (which should be a good thing, even if we cannot slow or turn back the climate change).
The problem is economic at its root
- big money has intersts in maintaining the status quo to maintain profitability.
- the "green" industry has interests in promoting every possible scheme, whether good or bad.
- and on a national and international scale there is the issue of how much taxpayers are willing to fork out for something which seems a bit distant to the everyday life they lead.
- if we do nothing (or not enough) will it be possible either technically or financially to resolve the problems in 20, 30, 40 years?
My opinion is that something must be done on a global level to reduce overall carbon emissions, and general waste and pollution (landfill, chemical waste etc). It may not solve the problems, but if we don't try we'll never know.
As to the charlatans on the bandwagon - like dole scroungers, there will always be a few who get something they don't deserve - but why penalise everyone to stop them!
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cool brush work
"Frankly, I find it nauseating that Obama turned up in Copenhagen and had 3 limousines and about 20 outrider vehicles - - yes, the 'man' is a target in many ways, but so are we all in this Climate Change scenario and I cannot help feeling he too is divorced from reality by the sheer overwhelming paraphaelia that seems to accompany him"
I agree that the number of limos and private jets on show has been a little hypocritical. I can understand multiple limos (no hard target for the bad guys) but why so many outriders ..... Although I imagine there are secret service issues which even the President cannot countermand - he is not all powerful.
And why couldn't there be a kind of "limo-share" scheme for other delegates - maybe incentives for multi-occupancy limos (or even a bus!!!) to the convention. At least it would disarm some of the more obvious flak that will fly about it.
And check out the Queen, taking the 10.45 train to Sandringham
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/17/queen-train-travel-sandringham
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@Gavin
Sit down and prepare for a shock.
All the numbers are made up. Invented on the spot.
We read about $100bn. A made-up number. 40% cuts - another made-up number.
The year 2050. It will be a real year but again choosing that year is abitrary.
The ClimateGate affair shows climate "scientists" made up their own numbers too and destroyed numbers they didn't like.
So what are we left with ? Politicians doing what they do - fighting for money and power.
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32. At 8:07pm on 18 Dec 2009, Jukka Rohila wrote:
To David (28) and Dempster (31):
'Now I have always wanted to have a Porsche'
Well I have always wanted to pay my council tax bill, stuff the Porsche, I don't mind walking. It's just seems to get more difficult each year to keep it all going that's all.
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Its 40F here, which means above freezing and that cold winter has not arrived...I'm concerned, it's awfully warm here for winter. Also, my finger's are crossed that no ice storms develop this winter...
Web Alice, think of all the lines falling in the street from heavy ice, going pop pop, and all the power going out with no fireplace in sight, but someday it will be rice paddies in Moscow--you may be lucky. :)
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God Hillary looks old...and haggard. This job is killing her and it's happening quickly. You can see it in her face.
BTW WA, the necklace appears to be some kind of red coral. Google red coral necklace and you will see a lot of it.
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You are right, Marcus, it looks like a typical business woman necklace used in place of a decorative scarf.
But, I think she IS good at her job, and for all her haters, well, I, myself, wouldn't want to be in "firing line." (be afraid, Marcus, be very afraid) lol
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Yes, must be dark red corals. Spent an exciting half an hour staring :o)) Why things are so cheap in the USA au waw, au waw waw
au wow? oh. Saw nothing like Hillary's but I guess possible if more persistence is applied :o)
She is NOT getting older, simply wrong synthetic light. Un-human to take photos in that light!
I clean forgot about corals, Southern seas and all. au wow.
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David, if I were the president :o)))) of any thing :o)))) - I'd do swaps! with all, on merit. For example we could swap building electric lines with you (that do not go "pop pop" pf!, from snow weight, ice etc.) - in exchange for the same amount of roads. OK, roads are wider than those metal ropes, for less roads. We all heard the USA, Europe and China - who only not! builds roads for 5 times less amount per kilometre than dear Russia does. Ours are golden :o))))
5 times less in euros in dollars in ? those? with Mao Tse Dun photo, mens we can have all constructors imported, paid, fed, put into hotels, air-flown back and forward - and still it'll cost twice less!
From our side we have a certain Mr Chubais, who used to be head of combined all electricity in Russia, generators and those who deliver and sell, but now they dismantled them as too much in one hands and all (big mistake). Anyway here when anything happens we blame Chubais. He is also of that generation, of 1990-s "reformers" (swearing word in Russia), but nevermind disastrous reforms, electric wires he can stretch without "pop-pop". Now thar Gaidar died the motto is "Save Chubais! If any thing - we won't have any one left to blame!" :o)))
(He is red haired, so all red hair cats in Russia were called Chubais.
Those that were not called "Boris", after Yeltsin. )
Now when the train was blown up, and a man was observed nearby red-haired or in red-hair wig - people said, "Oh? Can it be - Chubais again?"
When it's a black-out anyplace in Russia - country exclaims "Chubais! Him!"
In short he knows electricity and I'd have rented him out for a while, in exchange for some roads.
Except, may be... Where would we go? And what for? As if it's better any place else here? I really think there is no point of going. :o)))
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WA,
You could drive anywhere, because oil is plentiful in Russia. yes?
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There is this beautiful Polish girl at the petrol station!!!
I AM ALL IN FAVOUR OF LETTING POLES INTO THE UK!!
I always have been. Just not too many. And I do not want the automatic assumption that their qualifications are good enough. Sometimes they are and sometimes they ain't.
When my mother came to live in this country in the thirties she had a job before she came. When I went to work on the continent in the 70s, I had a job before I went there.
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"Who'd ha thunk it? Italian Constitutional Court tells ECHR to take a hike, asserts national sovereignty"
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100020323/whod-ha-thunk-it-italian-constitutional-court-tells-echr-to-take-a-hike-asserts-national-sovereignty/
EUpris: Groovy!!
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David, people can drive anywhere, roads permitting :o), I mean there are roads everywhere, but one worse than another :o))) Varying from "Federal trasse" (more or less alright) to city+region around roads (au wow with bumps and holes here and there), to simply no even asphalt ones! to distant villages. And a "distant village" is any village with 1-50 people in. o:(
Like when that train mid-way Moscow-St.Petersburg, to get to the accident site they had to take local road to the village nearby, through the forest, no asphalt on, only curves, holes and bumps.
In effect one local poor babushka, living in the house by the RW, was piling all the wounded for hrs in her house, used all coats, clothes, blankets to accommodate wounded people on the floors, everywhere around the house. While ambulances were getting there for 1 hr and a half through the forest. And this is btw Moscow and St. Petersburg.
So I would say one can drive city to city, town to town, but no deviations to small places, off main roads.
Oil is indeed we are drowning in it, which doesn't prevent benzine sellers to charge they say more than in the USA. It is not prohibited here to rob people any way you please, there are no "ceiling prices", neither on medications, nor on books (as I saw in Britain, there are prices pre-printed! on some tablets and books), and, basically, no ceiling, any telephone provider, electricity provider, any seller can do with you all he wants.
At that Russians are awful patient and never go on strike come any increase in subway prices or bread prices or electricity, on any thing.
yesterday went to buy syringes, for poor cat, a syringe for injections used to be 4 roubles a month ago, now - 11. 33 cents? approx. for one.
It makes sense to pile here stocks as one can, as all gets expensive on a daily basis, absolutely all, non-stop, for years.
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Maybe someday...good nite and have a good weekend:) David
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I'm sorry, Web Alice, that was like saying, "let them eat cake" to you.
But, someday, next generation, unfortunately. But, Russia has 140 million people with a huge country of resources..you need to charge people to develop your pristine wilderness for you ...market, market, market it.... to Japan, maybe but, keep control of it. (as if I know what or how to do that lol)
(I know the above is ecologically incorrect, so no offense to greenpeaceuk...):)
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Because the one true solution to the problem of rising sea levels is simple and reasonably inexpensive it would be disregarded.
Here it is anyway.
During the arctic and antarctic winters the average temperature is around -40C. That being the case the simple solution to the problem is to pump the sea water back onto region which is experiencing the winter season. The water would instantly freeze and rebuild the ice cap that had previously melted.
During the summer months the ice would once again begin to melt so a cyclic process would be necessary to maintain a status quo.
Therefore throughout the year one polar region would be in winter and the ice cap under reconstruction. The following 6 month the alternate polar region would be receiving the attention.
I know you don't believe it and my suggestion will be disregarded. that's the problem of the world today, originating from the USA, where the answer to any problem is to throw money at it.
Rather like the panic to combat terrorism after 9/11, there is certainly far more terrorism in the world today as a result of the misguided reaction.
Geoffrey
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@47
EUprisoner209456731 it is good to see that you now believe what most pro-EU people have been saying all along. That the EU is not a dictatorship and it does not take state rights away, it simply pools states to give them a larger market to sell in and a more collective voice towards the rest of the world.
All this rubish about the UK becoming a Brussel provence is simply rubish published by ignorant journalists like Mr. Gerald Warner. He is even either out of ignorance or purpose confusing people by linking the EU to the ECHR. The ECHR is seperate from the EU, if doesn't know the difference you should stop offering biased, wrong opinions. Russia, Serbia, etc. are part of the ECHR but have nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty or the EU.
How much more mis-information can that ridiculous propaganda paper and it is ill informed writters dish out? Enough please!! Jozef Gebels is child's play compared to them.
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52. At 09:56am on 19 Dec 2009, ChrisArta wrote:
"@47
EUprisoner209456731 it is good to see that you now believe what most pro-EU people have been saying all along. That the EU is not a dictatorship and it does not take state rights away, ..."
I am not aware of having said that and if I did then I didn't intend to. The "EU" is a dictarship. The exixt3ence of the "EU" is an act of dictatorship.
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@53
:))
I like your consistency even though facts don't back it :))
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The real question: does anyone intend to do anything?
That is anything constructive and well thought out, anything other than raise taxes, look and sound good, line their pockets, pay off their debts .......
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I am all for the developed world countries helping the developing or under-developed countries. Provided the funds are properly administered, used and audited. Otherwise the monies will simply disappear into the pockets of the local corrupt political leaders, as much have in the past. No "free handouts".
Its significant that many "developing" countries are actually poorer now than when they were administered as colonies by European Powers. And that's largely due to local maladministration, exploitation and rotten corruption.
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What a big waste of money. It would have made a lot more sense to develope and build large solar power parks in deserts like the Sahara rather than pouring money into war mongering and corrupt dictators purses.
Why do those countires even need money to become more green? Ever heard of pareto? Why start with the category C states when the US and China don't care about any limitation of greenhouse gases?
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Oh and by the way thank you for yet ANOTHER blogg entry in the EURO blogg showing AMERICAN politicians in it. Have you even read your job description Gavin?
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55. At 2:02pm on 19 Dec 2009, WolfiePeters wrote:
'The real question: does anyone intend to do anything?
That is anything constructive and well thought out, anything other than raise taxes, look and sound good, line their pockets, pay off their debts'
Doesn't look like it does it.
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Very few things have been achieved in Copenhagen. The most important thing is perhaps that everybody, or almost everybody, now understands that China is a big country, and that the nation states of Europe are countries in another category.
I expect we will have to come back to the climate issue.
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It seems that the Copenhagen climate change conference failed quite badly. Then again, this was more or less to be expected as countries went there to fight over money and not to fix problems. Now it is futile to go into why exactly this conference failed, but the question in my mind is what next?
Should the EU take a unilateral approach? And if so what would that be?
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J_R
Re #61
I'm getting nervy!
Agreed with your earlier comment and now have to admit Thursday and Friday EU's Msr Barroso made some excellent points on behalf of Europe and what was 'needed' from the Copenhagen Conference. He at least sounded as if he had got Europe to make definite offers-on-the-table for radical steps.
Very disappointed with the Chinese who seem to have just dug in their heels and basically called everyone else dishonourable whilst offering no movement at all - - USA much the same - - 3rd World, were so lacking in vision and so desparate for the financial 'hand-outs' they were at times embarrassing to listen to.
Whilst totally understanding this 'problem' was created by us in the 1st World, it is just ludicrous how Africa and parts of Asia, Soputh America seem to expect everything handed to them: They have becomje so used to the begging-bowl syndrome they just are incapable of making any initiatives unless someone else pays the entire bill.
Feel terribly sorry for the Pacific Islanders and other threatened atolls, peninsulars etc. - - they are doomed - - unless another equivalent of Copenhagen, but much more forceful in results, gets underway within the coming 2 to 3 years!
What next?
Well, UNO Sec Gen Moon has called for the 'deal' (what there is of it) to be made legally binding: That is a good idea, but who is going to make China, USA do anything they don't want as the 'deal' depends on them even for its very modest aims!?
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The large elephant in the room which apparently cannot be discussed in the context of global warming is global population. It seems to be accepted that the human population will grow from the current 6 Billion to 9 Billion in the foreseeable future, with no suggestion that there is ultimately any limit.
What our numerically illiterate leaders don't want to face up to is that people need energy to live. It would be hard enough to achieve a genuinely sustainable energy balance if we could be sure that we could achieve a steady state population, but to boldly go forth thinking that spending large sums of money will magically provide the energy requirements of a population 50% larger than we have now is, quite simply, ludicrous.
The sooner we realise that it is illogical to use the words "sustainable" and "growth" in the same sentence, the sooner we will be able to face up to the need for living in a steady state equilibrium with our planet. Otherwise nature will take a hand in the issue and play its part in solving our problems for us, in the shape of famines and other natural disasters.
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#2 - perspicuously
"And what about in the UK? Does anyone even care whether there is opposition to spending taxpayer's money to encourage the developing world to curtail its emissions? Or will we be forced into it by the EU?"
We really don't have an earthly do we?
If you, the taxpayer have a problem with your money being spent on emissions finance in the developing world you, the taxpayer have an opportunity in May to dispense with the services of those who would spend it. It is called democracy.
If you, the taxpayer seriously believe that the EU is forcing you into anything, you really don't understand the EU, your part in it or indeed democracy at all.
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Asked my meteo mum. She had soothing news; said that as much as Northern polar cap has warmed up (and melted) recently, as much the Southern polar cap has frozen up :o)))
So on average LOL it's in balance, but my unscientiic view is the Northen melting stuff is closer here.:o))))
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Another personal observation is they just gathered, to save us from warming, and it turned so cold! Results of the conference are visible at once why are people complaining. :o)))
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In Moscow -28 (10 degrees colder than "December norm"), Obama e head was unable to get home from the airport, all roads in snow, don't know how it is elsewhere? ah, in England snow, in France? eurotunnel got snowed up, so, the conference works.
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~64, Threnodio
I could not agree more, the only shame is that democracy has the dice loaded in most countries whereby the PR coupled with the list system means our vote is effectively null. It is a shame that the only alternative is for sufficient people to vote for a small party even if it is detestable and reprehensible, as more than a few have said to me here, there is a need for a cleaning.
As for the Copenhagen fiasco, lots of wind, the same pollution created as a small African country emits and every tin pot dictator looking for increased funds for his family. I switched off when I heard the Venezuelan leader Chavez pontificating on about money, with that amount of oil he could have donated lots, but no, he is a typical Communist, keep his population poor and berate anybody not of his political leaning.
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This Copenhagen thing was a literal "nine day wonder."
To say that hopes were dashed on one day is so, so, so, frustrating to anyone who does have hope.
I sense some glee here at the "failure" of the conference, when failure was probably the only option.
At one moment in time?? When 50% of people don't even believe in global warming???
What we truly need is more education on this subject and more realistic hopes. If you are facing the end of the world, don't people have to be convinced of That before politicians start acting on it?
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It seems as though the vast majority of developed/rich countries, as well as a large proportion of the people making comment here, still believe that throwing vast quantaties of money at these incredibly complex climate issues is going to solve these problems. My slightly cynical and worried perspective is that they are more interested in 'stimulating' the/their/our economies, which isn't the damned point. Printing more/pledging more money is avoiding the real issues here.
Money is just a tool for denoting value to a chosen item or service and this value is not fixed. I value my family and freinds immensely yet i do not put a price on their heads. So what is the True value of an item or service? If the crown jewels are deemed priceless then what is the True value of humanitys survival into and beyond the next century?
We shouldn't be asking 'How much is this going to cost?' Surely, when the fate of millions/billions of people, thousands of other species and modern civilisation itself(with all it's wonders of art, science, technology and so on) is being put at extreme risk, maybe as a global society we should be asking; How can we be of service to all humanity, what resources do we have, what skills do we have, how can we best utilise the most modern, efficient technology to all our advantage, how can we implement true social change in order to help create a more healthy environment (in all it's connotations), how can we cooperate most effectively with one another to achieve the most ambitous of dreams.
Cooperation, change/evolution and resilience are much more fundamental forces of nature than the competitive markets (survival of the fittest/live or die) of business (stinking rich/abject poverty).
Money is just a tool, all tools have limited use.
We really need to start thinking way outside the box. Can our politicians do so? My guess is that... right now, the way things are, NO!
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Every topic (almost) discussed in this forum eventually boils down to europhiles and eurohaters yelling at each other and not moving an inch from each of their views. It must be quite frustrating as the writer of this blog. There you are writing about interesting stuff and those guys just keep hating on each other. Boooooooooorinnnngggggg
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I agree. Our (Russian) target looks nice (-25% emissions compared to 1990 something) but given some say we are -39% now, in 2009, as compared to 1990 - bringing it to -25% in future means we are going to increase it?!
Far more down-to-earth approach would be to have specific targets by country in exact terms. In Russia's case the biggest source of polluting is moto transport (in fact, in many a Europen country place).
So, why not to say simply - EURO No 4 EURO No 5 standards re gasoline will be introduced in Russia by... on... etc. What's those "-25%" of I don't know what.
I am sure every country knows where is its biggest polluting trouble, some specfic factory to be closed up or whatever. Well those point need to make together the list of "what the world combined will do", not counted in percentages or moneys.
BTW Jukks the way we traded with you permission for Nord Stream by Finnish shores, in exchange to return back to the low export tariffs on raw St. Petersburg timber to Finland - all is nice and wonderful, we got Nord Stream pass by your shore, you got possibility to continue to make money working on raw Russian timber - but this is a major hit on forests in North-West of Russia area, and in terms of improving environment - a huge loss.
For those not in the knowing Medvedev tried to stop barbaric forests cut-over in the region by raising export tax on timber to Finland, making it less profitable and less alluring for Russian wood-cutters to destroy forests and sell them to Finland. Hoping that now they'll deatroy ony as much as Russian own wood-processing industry will consume (and as it nearly does not exist LOL - consequitively - no point to cut wood as nobody will buy it from you). This situation held for half a year, until there came Nord Stream negotiating time with countries, by whose side it passes in the Baltic. And surprise surprise Finland wuld settle only for one thing.
Ecology! khm
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71. At 00:49am on 20 Dec 2009, Gheryando wrote:
"Every topic (almost) discussed in this forum eventually boils down to europhiles and eurohaters yelling at each other and not moving an inch from each of their views. It must be quite frustrating as the writer of this blog. There you are writing about interesting stuff and those guys just keep hating on each other. Boooooooooorinnnngggggg"
EUpris: Through the despicable actions of arrogant, anti-democratic, megalomaniac "EU"-lovers we have had the destruction or diminution of democracy, justice, freedom and legitimacy. It is not a trivial matter. It is quite clear that there is no functioning democracy in the UK or the "EU". That I believe, explains why people seek other methods to express their views, their outrage, their contempt and their anger. Just be glad they are being non-violent. By that I do not mean that they should become violent. There are plenty of non-violent tactics we have not yet used.
As for you being bored! I do not post here to entertain you.
You know that we in the UK were promised a referendum on the new treaty. Please could you tell me if you have complained anywhere that we have not had that treaty?? Have you posted anything on any blog in your own country (Italy?)? Do you accept that your "EU" will not be accepted as legitimate by many people in the UK and/or Europe until we have that referendum. Do you understand that the armed forces of your "EU" will be weakened by being perceived as being the agents of an illegitimate Greater European Reich?
Please will you start campaigning for us in the UK to have a referendum?
I genuinely wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I want to be friendly with everybody in the world, but not through the mechanism of the "EU".
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63. At 5:27pm on 19 Dec 2009, angloscotty wrote:
"The large elephant in the room which apparently cannot be discussed in the context of global warming is global population. ..."
EUpris: I certainly agree with you on that. Large numbers of people produce a massive number of children. We do need some action on that. I believe in a gently declining world population. It wouldn't solve every problem but it would be very beneficial.
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One thing I've noticed is a want for a bigger political influence on the world community--comparable to China's or the U.S' or India's influence, these days.
All that is needed in Europe is unity, or an "entente cordiale" (sorry if misspelled) of the nations of Europe.
In spite of the attempts by the EU to achieve that kind of influence--even after the EU has become "one," it still realistically needs a coalition of nations to achieve superpower influence, perhaps.
Also, Obama's "hard sell" in Copenhagen offended many, not least, the Chinese leadership. I did not know this...Cultural Faux Pas = not good.
He should have apologized "for making them seem as a scapegoat," and then took responsibility (making us the scapegoat)--but that would have made a large percentage of Americans feel slighted. Huh?
Oh, the horribleness, of a single fateful week. "Whom to slap in the face, symbolically?"
I AM realizing the seriousness of global warming, but, to have all these self important people representing millions of people at a gravely important meeting -- big mistake!!
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To WebAliceinwonderland (72):
I have not heard of any such a thing. What Russian government has done is for time being stop increases on timber export taxes. However the Finnish forest companies have long ago said that any temporary repeal or decrease of timber export taxes isn't sufficient and that they can't rely on temporary promises like these.
You see when forest companies are planning on building a new pulp or paper mill, the investment time is at least 30 years, and so they also have to plan and forecast both the development of their costs and general development of market prices and need for forest products. While Russian government now could promise to make timber export tariff free for the next 30 to 50 years, there is no guarantee that it wouldn't use its sovereign right and repeal any such decision. Thus the Finnish forest companies have wiped Russia from their calculations, meaning that no new plants wont be build in Nordic countries and many of the existing will be shutdown. The new pulp and paper mills will be build on Latin American and South East Asia where there is both the need and quickly growing forest plantations to harvest.
In essence the forest game is over. Nordic companies won't be building no new plants to Nordic countries, they will keep some of their current plants, and for sure build no plants to Russia. All new action will be in Southern countries.
In case of forests and environment, cutting trees in places where wood growth is natural and where cutting of forest doesn't lead into soil erosion, there is no harm done to the environment: North Europe, North America and Russia are the perfect places for this. Of course, when we have clear cut some place, the result may not be pleasing for the eye, but where there were old forests there will new growth. By planting trees after a clear cut, the renewal process can be speed up even further. I should also note that clear cuts serve the same purpose as forests fires, in yesteryears fires destroyed large areas of forests every year, now when we put out those fires there are less places where new growth and renewal can happen.
Also, to remind everybody, using wood is carbon neutral. When we cut trees in the forest and they are replaces by new growth, the carbon emissions that are caused by for example burning the wood are replaces by binding of carbon in the new forest. Actually cutting for purpose on using to build new housing is good for the fight against global warming as it stores carbon and in the same time leads to capturing of carbon via growth of new forest.
You know, Alice, hope you don't get offended, but you sound like a city folk. I have lived in country side from a child to a young adult, near a town where there are been continuous pulping and milling of paper for over the last 100 years. In places like mine, forests have been cut for centuries and for generations people have gotten their livelihood from working for forest industry. It is no different than normal agriculture, the only difference is that while new crops come in to fruit after every summer, a forest grows in 30 to 40 years. And like I said, while clear cuts may for you see unpleasing, they are quite normal sight for me and there is nothing strange about them, a forest is cut and a new forest grows in place of it.
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Eupris: You know that we in the UK were promised a referendum on the new treaty. Please could you tell me if you have complained anywhere that we have not had that treaty?? Have you posted anything on any blog in your own country (Italy?)? Do you accept that your "EU" will not be accepted as legitimate by many people in the UK and/or Europe until we have that referendum. Do you understand that the armed forces of your "EU" will be weakened by being perceived as being the agents of an illegitimate Greater European Reich?
Why is there always this WW2 language when Brits talk about the EU. If you genuinely believe the EU is the second incarnation of the 3rd Reich then you must definitely be not very informed. I am going to try to put myself in your head. I will assume for a moment that what you say is true.
.
..
...
....
Ok. I tried. If I assume the EU is an evil dictatorship I would probably protest. Violently if need be. I think most people in Europe would. Why don't they then? The problem with the UK is that there is a total asymmetric flow of information regarding the European Union project. Your politicians are too cowardly to explain to you the benefits of a united Europe. I guess this stems from the fact that you won the last war and thus don't really care or see the need to "change things". This makes sense if the world would ONLY be Europe and there were no other countries in the world but European ones. Also, your schools teach next to nothing about the EU. You learn no languages and you have no cultural exchanges, mainly due to the fact that you are an Island, so its not all your fault.
Lastly, Rupert Murdoch has made it his lifetime mission to discredit the European Union in the UK through his media outlets. I have no idea why since he's Australian but I would really like to know.
I also genuinely do wish you a merry Christmas and happy holidays.
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Oh, and may I add that the two single most convenient/visible results of being in the EU are not implemented in the UK. The Euro and borderless travel. I can drive through Austria to Germany over to France and back to Italy in one go. With one currency. Ah! The joy!
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To WebAliceinWonderland re: I am sure every country knows where is its biggest polluting trouble, some specfic factory to be closed up or whatever. Well those point need to make together the list of "what the world combined will do", not counted in percentages or moneys.
I agree, in as much as pinpointing areas to be targeted for change rather than some arbitrary percentage, that is essentially meaningless, without the specifics to back it up, is surely a much more practical, productive and solutions focused approach.
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Jukka, theoretically, of course, where there was old forest - in 40 years would grown new forest. Before, in normal times, of other centuries of slow timber consumption, for cut-wood for stoves and for house building and for furniture.
Now where is an empty hole - there will stay an empty hole! A hole is attractive in North-West Russia, once it is cleaned of forest, it will be built up, a road or a housing complex, don't even doubt.
I am not consoled that new wood-processing factories in Finland won't be built up. Existing ones are enough to chew up what is left.
Besides, a country person :o) A country person knows perfectly well that where there was a "ship" pine-tree forest / "korabeln'ny les" - straight high 100 year old pine trees in nearly geometrical, natural, rows, fit for old ship's masts - when such a massive block is cut - will grow up instead total crap! small curvy things, of sorts, not pine-trees, and not good for nothing.
To restore massives of pine-trees you ought to apply heaps of work, combined with heaps of time (another 100 years), to match the wood-cutters' "effort" with the same amount of forest restorers' effort, planting, bordering up the area for no tres-passing/building up, road making.
When there stands a forest in high rows - such a block protects itself.
When it's a massive hole - you need to take laws on all levels, municipal, city, region - not to go there, not to trample out the land that'll be weared and winded away and will get swampy or dry bare, you need to employ foresters to plant pine-trees anew, to buy small pine-trees, transport them from Siberi or elsewhere, start artificial plantations for baby pine-trees growth, and keep them. Like we keep plantations of fir-trees, 2 year-olds, artificial, for Christmas.
None such obligations have wood-cutters, they cut and go. If to make them restore what they destroy - they'll never have money for it enough, from all the total income and even turn-over of their business.
It is a business only once you cut and transport, restoration - should be covered by special government spent.
Never there will be restored what went and goes to Finland, in this corner, and what went and is going to China, the other consumer - but huuuge consumer, in Siberia.
It is forever gone, wiped out, the lungs of this continent.
What do I care for the North Stream? Money will be split btw several individuals with another sum channeled down to the army of state-workers, an unhealthy tumour on the Russia's body, army of cock-roaches, the class, un-existing elsewhere in the world, when state workers live 10 times better than any one else in the population. Artificially created to have 20 % of the country always voting "for" and keep the bulk of the political system.
It is ab-normal that state-workers have different pensions, it is ab-normal that the state buys them apartments, for free! That they live in a different world from the country. Cock-roaches.
Anyway. I won't benefit from North Stram a cent, in any format. While the forests around me, by which I breathe - will continue to vanish.
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WA; If Russia really cared about global warming and was willing to make a genuine sacrifice the way Europeans say that they are, it has a very simple course of action that would help both them and the Europeans. It could shut off the supply of oil and gas to Europe the way it has in the past only this time permanently. This would force the Europeans to cut back on their energy use. It is true that it would cost Russia a lot of money. Perhaps there is some way it could make it up. Payments by the more developed countries such as the US, China, not to mention Europe itself. Yes Europe could pay Russia to stop selling it gas giving it an incentive to become more efficient by having to do with less. Or it could sell it all to China and India who are going to buy what they need from someone anyway. This would of course drive the cost of oil down because Europe doesn't have the facilities to make up for lost imports over land by other means. Again subsidies from the "developed" nations would help...or does Russia consider itself a developed nation already...then in that case it would not be entitled to subsidies. Less oil and gas for Europe than they currenty use in a way that forces them to reduce overall consumption, less CO2 and less global warming. Problem solved :>)))))) And those EU leaders could cut back on their consumption by giving up their Mercedes limos and drive Volkswagon Beetles....or ride bicycles to work. Sounds good to me.
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People habitually worry about "Amazon forests".
Good grief!
Open your eyes. I know it is difficult, because hardly any one travelled to the USSR in the past century, or limited to eithe Moscow or St. Petersburg visits.
Russia used to be one big forest, stretching from left to right, on the map.
If planet had a forest of such mass there in place - means it was normal, for centuries and centuries. It is planned for somehow, in the normal course of events. And through the USSR Russia stayed a forest. When you fly plane over us - it's forest under the wing, non-stop, with openings opening up for big cities. City ends - forest again, for an hour flight, un-interrupted, under the wing, when you sit by the window.
Why? Because nobody traded with the USSR, and we didn't sell forest, only to Finland, a "friendly state". Which bared North-West of Russia sufficiently.
Now, since perestroyka, and free wild capitalism - they cut away in 20 years as much as no one ever did in milleniums before! And exported it, it's mass cutting of forests, mass, in huge numbers. China consumption already wiped away whole thousands, thousands! of km2 of virgin forests.
They shaved off a huge bulk of Siberia.
What is everyone going to breathe with I don't know.
If people in this continent think they are breathing by Kazakhstan or Asian other deserts or by "Armenia forests" LOL, or by Georgia forests" - think again. By what do you think you breathe? In Europe there has long stayed nil woods of any notice. No forests, only modest woods here and there. Not a place where you can get lost even for a couple of days, to say nothing for a couple of months, while losing way and wandering in.
In fact I doubt there is where to be lost in Central European "forests" even for 4 hrs.
If it was so that a multi-thousand thick barrier of forest stood in this continent in the North, from left to right, the whole stretch - it is needed for something. May be for winds to blow "correctly" or as a block to the air masses of the Northern seas or I don't know, but they were always there and they are in place there, that wide belt of forest.
Our corruption and the way the state cares of any thing (but stuffing their pockets), our democracy and all, - nobody did nil and won't do nil, about this barbarous shave-off, and before long the place will be bare, bare, bare, with all consequances hell knows which, following from that.
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About Russia the main ecological project should be not even the cars, we still have less cars per population head than any one else in the world, poor, and are likely to stay poor.
But to stop this deforestation, because this crime you won't restore it by any means after. I absolutely insist that a belt of forest is needed for something, given its size and that it was always there, un-touched by thousands of years.
What is needed for that is simply to keep law and order, that wood-cutters keep to quota-s - re what they cut, and how much. Because they cut, by all estimates, 1/10 officially - and 9/10 smuggling, without any permits. Who checks?
May be someone read here a BBC article, on the life of foresters in Siberia, how thwey are 1 per thousands of miles, state workers, how they are armed by law - and still are killed daily, it's a work compared in risk with no journalism in Russia! They homes are burned, with families locked inside, they are threatened, it's horrible life, to simply be able to do their work, stop illegal wood-cutting in the depths of Russian forests.
Break-neck people, fighting alone, and in miserable quantities.
What is needed for that is modest money, compared to this flashy multi-billion projects. A 5,000 people, on modest ordinary Russian salary of 500 dollars a month more. With more Kalashnikovs, one per each, not one per a "group", and good all-go-everywhere cars, not old Zhiguli. So that they could simply do their job- hunt illegal wood-cutters, and arrest them, and not apologise :o))) when meeting them and leave, forces un-equal.
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May be not 5,000. I don't know. But definitely not dozens, as they are now. 1 per forest it's a joke!
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5 per forest size of France. As was the case in the BBC article.
To stop it being routed to China. Aha.
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I believe to remember that the vegetation of the rain forest is much more efficient in converting CO2 into O2 than the Russian taiga.
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WA;
Russia might have more and better cars and more trees left if...it stopped building its cars out of wood the way Fred Flintstone's was and made them out of steel the way most other countries do :>))))) Yabba dabba doooo.
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Cheryando, can be any thing. Must be, where warmer, works better. But the size also matters. And where is Amazon and where are we.
Mavrelius, "yabba dabba doo" ! :o))))
Before, it was normal. Buyer - British fleet alone. Means - an axe, a horse with sleigh behind in winter, a flow down the river pine trees bundled in bundles, floating themselves along the stream in suimmer. Then - same rocky-wobbly wooden ships, to deliver.
Since electric saws were invented .... Big ro-ro carrier types of ships... and overall horses with sleigh re-placed by trains - wood-cutting in Russia sped up immensely! Still, in USSR times there was order and law (may be too much of it). Nobody cut the wrong brand of tree in a wrong place by wrong quantity and sold tree ha ha - illegally.
Prizon immediately, in 10 minutes.
Now, as they saw "zakon-taiga!" (law is taiga) Meaning - stand in the middle of it and cry to the skies, in vain, only taiga will answer your call back.
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WA;
"floating themselves along the stream in suimmer."
Row row row your boat gently down the stream
Merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream.
Along the Delaware River between Lambertville and Washington's Crossing not all that far from where I live is a small canal separated from the river by a narrow strip of land. The Delaware river itself is none to wide or violent at that point, nothing like the mighty Hudson or Mississippi. The canal is perfect for pole rafting on a summer's day. It must be about 10 miles long. A park runs along side it. You can easily see across the other side to Pennsylvania which looks exactly like New Jersey there. The trees are dotted with houses, some going back to the 19th and even 18th century, a few even earlier.
America has vast many forests. Some years ago it was realized that far too many trees were being cut down, too much of the land had been scarred. So after public and government pressure the paper and lumber industries have become the champions of forest management. They plant new trees when they cut down the old so that the forest will re-grow. In 75 or 100 years the trees will be mature again and ready for harvesting. Meanwhile the forest survives. Many millions of trees have been planted this way and there continues to be constant replanting of them. And of course some national and state forests are off limits for logging. Contrary to what many think, America has great respect for the land and has worked hard over the last 40+ years to clean up pollution (real pollution not CO2) from our air, land, and water. Once dead rivers and lakes are alive again for fishing, swimming, and other recreation.
I do think the tropical rainforests are much more efficient at converting CO2 back to Oxygen than the forests in the temperate regions though. That is why the Amazon is so important.
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Everyone could contribute...are the emissions of grain the same as gasoline? Grain can be replaced.
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To David (90):
Grain in principle is carbon neutral, however there is a but...
Modern industrial agriculture to work needs huge amounts of synthetic fertilizers and insecticides to to make sure that the crops grow. Now relatively the amount isn't much per produced ton of crops, but when you multiply it with the amount of crops produced you are starting to see big numbers. However in this point I have to put my hands up and confess that I don't have the numbers to quote.
So the answer is, grain is carbon neutral, but...
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Grain is not neutral. Grain converts sunlight, nutrients, and CO2 into oxygen and chlorophil. But, in the conversion of grain to alcohol, some of the plant's sugar is converted back to CO2. The rest back to CO2 when it is burned as fuel. But then there is the energy to plant it, everything associated with feeding it, watering it, harvesting it, fermenting it, processing it, and transporting it. All of that generates CO2. There's a good reason why you don't have the numbers. It depends on many variables which are not consistent. If the grain is processed and used next door to where it is grown, that extra CO2 may be minimal. If it comes and goes around the USA or around the world it can be enormous. Same for petroleum distillates. Anyone who says he knows is lying because at best he's guessing. At best scientists can make assumptions, approximations, average and hope their answers are the right order of magnitude. Usually even that is a risky business. Most energy savings schemes are bogus because they fail to take into account one or more critical variables. For example, saving energy on lighting affects the cost of heating and air conditioning in very complex ways unique to each situation. Usually engineers just ignore that fact if they are even aware of it. Even as money savings schemes most are bogus because scientists and engineers do not know how accountants compute costs and payback. It is not the intuitive method they think it is, there's a lot more to it. I know because the first time I had to do one I sat down with my corporate accountants and they explained it to me. It was an eye opener. Every analysis my department had ever done was dead wrong and the CFO made no bones about it, he told my director so straight to his face one day. So the answer is that grain is not carbon neutral but the amount of CO2 it adds compared to petroleum distillates or coal cannot be computed because there are too many variables to generalize about it.
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Yes, MA, my estimation is also, that you are alright in trees. From flying over and glancing down from the window (un-scientific but very Russian approach) :o))) to, I think, there was a girl who bicycled the USA (and the world over) (avoiding Russia of course :o)) and she wrote a lot on the stop-overs and vegetation on the way, where they put their tent, with her husband, for the night, and all.
From reading the US part of their travels I did get an unscientific idea that trees enough and national parks preserved.
The poor girl was eventually driven over by someone, in own USA, an accident, after surviving the travel on a bicycle, round the world, and many, many wild roads and dangerous encounters and mad drivers. But she wrote that book.
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Still, Mavrelius, something happened with the pine trees. I do not believe you can grow a pine tree as before.
In the dacha I have real ones, of the kind how to say, have a photo, my granma stands by the one, in 1950-s something, in her apron in small flowers :o)) - that's the same very one I stand by now - and it looks the same exactly one, not wider.
That's real one.
Now, there were a ouple of attempts to grow new ones, undertaken in the same dacha in the past 20-30 yrs....
Mavrelius, it's defective pine-trees. They are pine trees, and straight, and growing, but that's not the same kind, can't explin. If it's your ship mast or your only house, to be built from one, once in a life - you'd immediately see which one is "better".
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And China cuts out our "listvennitsa" - the most precious kind of tree around, for building, can't explain the English for. I think there is no english, Siberia specific.
Only oak is better water resistent, improves with years, from water, in fact. :o)))) Well, doesn't rot, as minimum. Listvennitsa is lighter to carry over, and same water resistent. Ideal for a house. Better than pine tree a hundred times over.
In theory, China get nil of it. In practice, they get only it.
And in numbers, Russian number of "export to China" is year after year 1/8 of the Chinese number "import from Russia".
:o)))))
Means 7/8 is stolen, and China does not ask for the "cut tickets" or "paperwork" buys all delivered to the borderline.
Same with crabs and fish.
Russian boats, once at sea, invariably head to Japan and China with their catch. Because in those ports they get more for the fish and crabs than in the home ports.
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Russian Far East governors were fired by Kremlin an N-amount of times. What's the point?
They are all Ukrainians there, surrending Russian Far East.
All Russians fled from there to the "main land", stayed only Ukrainians and Koreans and Japanese.
In 2008 alone, 900,000 people, locals, took off and emigrated to central Russia from the regions bordering China.
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WA, America has many vast pine forests. The Pacific Northwest is especially rich in pine forests. Much in the Southern States too. Pine is our number one buiding material for homes (except high rise apartment buildings of course.) I'd bet more than 99% of all houses built in America are framed in pine. An ordinary piece of building pine lumber 2"x4"x 8 feet long costs about $2. Standard home construction has the walls framed with 2"x4" pine 16" studs (uprights) on center. Outside walls are often 2" x 6" to allow additional space for more fiberglass insulation. Actually you have to take 1/2 inch of each dimension to account for "dressing" the surface which means cutting it smooth so it's really only 1 1/2" x 3 1/3 inches in cross section. Google The Home Depot, then search for lumber and then studs. The Home Depot chain is the number one hardware store in the US. Lowes is probably number two.
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I wish I knew where to get dried up pine so cheaply here! To re-place the dacha with another dacha.
Only raw pines un-done around and they crack awful, from the centre to the edge of the perimeter, triangle cracks, if you just build the walls of them. I am really at a loss. May be I am even thinking these cracks are alright?
Must open a wall next summer of the existing dacha, look what's inside.
So much trouble to tear off away a panel of? pressed thin wood? what is it in English. Ordinary old stuff. Thin sheets, made of pressed together I guess wood chips? With glue? I need to hire someone again, to fix it back then.
And my favourite local policeman retired, who fixed me all, decided to abandon me, returns home to his motherland, to live the remaining years in his motherland, Arkhangelsk, he's a Northerner. oh wow. Dacha will collapse without his fixing in 1 summer.
Are they raw "in skin" :o) the logs there inside, or "de-skinned", or cut to shape or what is it. I want the same whatever it was.
Dacha problem is roof and floors. Floors sank, all wood rotted away, the bricks of the basement turned powder and evaporated, the whole house has no basement and mysteriously hoovers in the air on tubes! of heating and 3 main oak logs across, because nothing happens with oak.
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MA, can't see "lumber" unless I put in my "zip code". "studs" shows me pictures without asking for my "area zip code", but they look like tricky metal things. Anyway.
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And MA, here the approach is piling up a log on a log, horizontally, and thus you grow up your wall. The tricky thing is connection, if too tight, they'll all curve up out, you leave a space for them to set down and settle together somehow. For they dry up and move and what only not. :o))) I heard the idea is to make 4 walls and wait a year, for them to get together, and only after that you start plucking the holes between logs with moss LOL (yep. ideal. but where to take these days) and finishing the house.
2 dollars for an 8 feet (8x3=2.4 m log) sounds awful incredibly outrageously cheap, one can have hundreds of dacha-s with such cheap logs. Except the logs should be 6 metres long, one wall length - 1 log length.
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WA, sorry about not giving you a zip code. These are actually postal codes which will identify an area where the nearest Home Depot can be found. Prices vary due to the cost of shipment. Try 08820. This is a town in NJ I used to live in.
The lumber is fully finished on all surfaces. It is very good quality. Slightly better is kiln dried pine. The exterior of most houses today is exterior grade particle board. It is wood chips held together with a binder of glue. It is surprisingly strong and weather resistant. So is exterior grade plywood but it's more expensive. On top of that goes tar paper and then siding. Most of my house is vinyl siding which will be maintenance free forever, never needs painting, never wears out or cracks. The front of my house is a brick facade. It looks and feels like brick but it is only an inch or two thick. It's not a real brick. Insulation is fiberglass. The interior walls are 1/2" sheetrock. Windows are energy efficient double pane glass with gas between the panes, I think argon which improves their insulation against heat and cold air infiltration. This is the standard way to build houses. Houses usually have either a concrete slab or a basement of poured concrete or concrete blocks. Steel columns and beams hold up the center of the house. Floor joists are often made from long Oriented Strand Board with 1 x 1 nailed top and bottom to make what looks like an I beam out of wood. they are also surprisingly strong and you can have very long spans with no columns between them. In the old days they used to use 2 x 10 pine. I don't think this is typical construction in Europe. They use a lot of manonary, at least that is what I saw when I was there. I think wood and paper products were and still are very expensive in Europe. Plumbing and electrical fixtures and quality of workmanship there was awful at least when I lived there. The US builds to different electrical and maybe plumbing codes but has now adopted the International Building Code. Our electrical code is almost universally the National Electrical Code (part of the National Fire Code), Europe uses the International Electrical Code. There is a world of difference.
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MA will copy onto word what if may come of some use, after all an engineer speaking. Some words need to look up in the dictionary.
A friend of my brother recently built a second dacha on his land plot. 500,000 roubles, awful, un-affordable. And the result is, attention: 6 metres wide facade, 9 metres long deep, that's all! 1 floor only.
A barack, in other words! And not logs, just, modern, that stuff, chips glued together. Inside 1 long corridor, ending with a bathroom and toilet together! in 1 compartment. Not even a bath tub, a shower!
2 "rooms" 3x3 meters each. And one large kitchen.
Half a million. Disaster. He said 200 thousands of it ate up the basement, to extract soil and crap, to fill the hole with concrete and metal strips, bull-dozers' work, that thing rotating cement so that it doesn't freeze up work, trucks coming and going with sand and gravel, only basement - 200,000, and via acquaintances, to me he said will cost 250,000.
______________________
:o)
Copehangen doctors couldn't decide where to carry the patients to - either to call ambulances or to bring to "psykhushka" :o))))
/psychiatric hospital.
For the first time they had on hands a thousand deep over-frozen, reciting "We are dying from heat! Stop the global warming!"
:o)))))))))
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And, MA, when we go for a wooden house, synthetic panels are out, everything useful, LOL, is out, because otherwise all the trouble and expene of being medieval is lost, the thing ought to breathe. Breathe in, breathe out, one plastic panel spoils all the work. So, nothing practical can be applied, only wood wood and wood.
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Half a million roubles is 17,000 dollars. Plus water ways, plus sewage tanks, plus electricity line in, plus gas line in, let me see, 5,000 dollars the water "permission" only from our water monopolist holder, plus pipes and work - 8,000 dollars water way into the house, gas heater installment, from another monopolist, 2,5 thousand dollars, 5000 kw electricity line - 3,000 dollars from the third monopolist, say, 14,000 -technical stuff. On top of 17,000 for the barack itself.
31 thousand dollars for the questionable happiness to freeze in winter in a non-log house, that does not breathe either, and sit have fun in either of your 3x3 metre rooms!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
78. At 10:07am on 20 Dec 2009, Gheryando wrote:
"Oh, and may I add that the two single most convenient/visible results of being in the EU are not implemented in the UK. The Euro and borderless travel. I can drive through Austria to Germany over to France and back to Italy in one go. With one currency. Ah! The joy!"
EUpris: So can criminals. And they do. And the more open borders benefit them more than anybody else. I don't want those open borders and loads of continentals don't want them either.
I used to live in Germany on the Dutch border. I had no problem with keeping stuff in two currencies. At the moment I have three currencies in my residence.
I have found it an advantage to have one currency when driving through Holland and Germany to go skiing in Austria. It still doesn't save that much bother. You don't need a European Army or the Lisbon Treaty to have it either.
77. At 10:04am on 20 Dec 2009, Gheryando wrote:
" ..Also, your schools teach next to nothing about the EU."
EUpris. I doubt if you know that especially since the remarks that follow it are untrue. When I taught in German schools the pupils were clearly subjected to a stream of pro-"EU" propaganda. I was walking down the corridor one day and a large teacher with fingers like German sausages was shouting at a pupil and jabbing his finger at him because the pupil had dared to question the value of the "EU". Te teacher said to the pupil "You ask Herr [EUpris]" i.e.me. He got a shock when I told him I was anti-"EU" or strictly speaking its predecessor.
" You learn no languages"
EUpris: Not true! At this school we sued to get French teachers visiting. They spoke no German and the Germans spoke no French. I had to translate on several occasions. Not very well!
At Tegel Airport in Berlin I have twice seen Italians in difficulties with the language. So the Germans spoke to them in ... Guess what Yes, English! At a British adult college I found about the same numbers of lecturers able to speak Swahili ans German. In Sicily I found very few Italians willing or able to speak English.
"... and you have no cultural exchanges ..." Not true! I have accompanied students on a cultural exchange to Germany.
"Lastly, Rupert Murdoch has made it his lifetime mission to discredit the European Union in the UK through his media outlets. I have no idea why since he's Australian but I would really like to know."
That had no influence on me. I went to live in Germany in August 1972 being pro-Common Market. By January 1973 I was wobbling and by April 1973 I was against it and have been ever since. By 1975 I decided I had to do something about it and have been writing letter, wearing anti-Eurorubbish T-shirts, ringing up the "EU" commission and telling them where to stick it and posting here ever since.
"I also genuinely do wish you a merry Christmas and happy holidays. "
Thank you!
I am trying to learn Italian but am finding it more difficult than it is supposed to be. Maybe it is my age.
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Jan_Keeskop, only you can be "referred to the moderators" at 5 o'clock in the morning :o))))
(I'm on cat ear watch :o( As if it's of any use.
By the way, Jan_Keeskop and MA, I'm sorry we didn't agree to help you with military helicopters, training Afghani "good ones" to fly them fight the "bad ones". That'll be clear military involvement, you know what it is "to train". We "trained", in Korea, it means you fly yourself.
Besides, it's a joke, looks like NATO does not read Russian press. If they were, they'd know that all our helicopters are Soviet made and flop down once in a month steady for the past 2-3 years. Our region governors flop in helicopters, simply military folk, who only not. It's even a joke now, that all the favourite governors should be issued helicopters :o))))
You don't need shooting at them, imagine in Afghanistan, "help", aha, international shame.
Though, as a matter of fact, LOL, with NATO aviation :o)))) judging by the head of NATO airplane :o)))) we might fit in perfectly :o))))
We just held him captive :o)))) in Moscow, the other day, during his visit. His airplane froze up and couldn't take off. So he had to return to the hotel, and for the whole day they were trying to send him away, eventually :o))))) so that he wouldn't start it again, about helicopters :o))))) Took 24 hrs to put capicious airliner on the wing again.
Moscow now jokes that he gave a lecture, to the students of the Moscow university, ensuring youngsters to relax finally about NATO, that it's not going to attack Russia. All concluded "We hope not; as minimum, we hope, he himself concluded "Not in winter." :o)))))))
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WebAliceinwonderland: I’d replied to many posts in my last post, so perhaps I’ve managed to simultaneously offend a wide swath of the general Europe-blog readership. I haven’t received an e-mail from the moderators yet, as to what the nature of my apparent immoderacy was.
On the chance that my tree-related comment was sufficiently inoffensive, I’ll repeat here that the tree in your post 95 is called a larch in English.
You undoubtedly know more about NATO aviation than I do! All I can say is that when I was a boy, I’d watched enough episodes of The World at War to also conclude “not in winter!” ;*)
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Jan Keeskop
Did you know I saw that series "the world at war" at a bookshop (B&N) -- the whole series for about 79.99 dollars and didnt have enought money, and the next week it was gone. That series is probably the best of all the WW2 documenataries..(and I'm not a warmonger.)
I remember that Richard Rogers did the score for it, and no one runs it on TV in the USA anymore--they prefer cheaper fare..ie, now, I guess.:)
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David: If you look on a certain Web site known for auctions, you can find the set on DVD for immediate purchase for considerably less than $80, delivered.
Richard Rodgers, as in Rodgers and Hammerstein? Seems a bit of a departure for him, compared to, say, Getting to Know You and My Favorite Things… ;*)
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Ty..but yes ..its like when John Williams did the score for Dynasty..(I was thinking "it sure sounds like the score from The Right Stuff"--showing my age here:) ty
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Eupris
Of course they can. But thats one of the things you have to accept and it is only fair not to keep the majority of good people hostage to a criminal authority. At least now they can be persecuted and sent to where they committed a crime. No more escaping.
Having a single currency not only makes things more convenient. It makes things immediately comparable. I bought my Christmasgifts (some) from the German Amazon since Italian sites were more expensive. I probably wouldn't have done it without the Euro.
Last but not least, the Euro is a symbol of strength and friendship. I am proud to share this currency with other peoples. When they come to my country they know they are as close to home as you can be while abroad.
Call it Eurobonding.
Your experience obviously didn't go so well in Germany. May I suggest that it probably had a lot to do with culture shock as well as the fact that it was more than 30 years ago and things have changed now?
Italians, or more specifically, Sicilians, don't speak English? Are you surprised? They, like you, are an Island, with and Island mentality. For the rest of Italy: Northern Italians have traditionally learned French or Spanish due to cultural closeness and easiness of learning. Only recently has the English boom kicked in and now young people start to learn English as their second language. In fact, I'd say its not even considered a foreign language anymore. When people ask you what language do you learn at school, they actually mean what other languages besides English do you learn.
Learning Italian, like any other language, would be done easiest by going to Italy. May I suggest to check out the EU Commission's website. Also, if at some point in time, you are looking for a speaking partner in London, I can try to brush your oral skills up a notch.
Finally, let me reccommend two great programs:
http://www.sorrentolingue.it/
It is located in a 16th century palazzo in the dramatic seaside town of Sorrento
and
http://www.dantealighieri.com/
which is based in the medieval city of Siena. (it also offers cooking courses)
P.s. If you enjoy young beautiful women and old disgusting men, turn on RAI International for a taste of Italian non-culture.
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'World At War': Sat enthralled with my Parents who had met and married in Brussels during the European part of the 'war'.
Easily the best ever series on WW2: The vivid film footage was the documentary archive of those who were there, the comments and contributions from those who lived it, the music theme as immense as it should be for such a tragic 'World' epic of the Human Race, and all encapsulated by the brilliantly scripted and immortal Laurence Olivier voice-over.
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WA;
I must admit there is something extremely unnerving to me about exterior grade particle board and oriented strand board (OSB) made from compressed wood chips and glue. But experts keep assuring me these materials are strong, light, durable, weather resistant and make excellent materials for building houses. These "engineered" products are made probably under extreme pressure with materials that have proven themselves in extensive testing to be suited to their purpose. I have to accept what these experts say but it isn't easy when you look at it, feel it in your hands. So far my new house hasn't collapsed after 10 years. Neither have my neighbors nor any others I've heard of. It is material that is very easy to work with I admit. If you want to run an electrical wire or pipe though one, you can drill a hole in it in about a second.
You won't be able to build a house in America for $17,000. Not in Western Europe either I think. Building a house in the US requires in addition to buyig land, hiring an architect, licensed contractors, obtaining permits, and inspection. Or you can buy one from a developer who does all of that for you. Usually if you can't or don't want to arrange your own financing, he can do that too. Of all the things you can build in the way of structures larger than a storage shed it struck me that there is nothing easier to build than a house. The techniques are very well known. If you build a large house in America today, it's build much the same way as a small house except that you get more of it. Interior finishes like kitchen cabinets and carpet may be fancier in a luxury home and there may be some unique features like a whirlpool tub instead of an ordinary bathtub in the master bathroom but I consider these details. From a construction point of view they are mere gingerbread even if they are more expensive.
One reason the US is saturated with such a surplus of houses is that they are so easy to build. In the US material is cheap, labor is expensive. In the orient labor used to be cheap and material expensive. That is because of the difficulty of importing it from the west. But now in places like China material has also become very cheap while labor remains cheap except in a few places like Japan. Europe has the worst of all worlds with both expensive labor and expensive material. But unlike the US, taxes are very so high on everything, that your net salary after taxes in Europe is low and prices are high. This is one thing I noticed when I lived in Europe. In comparing buying power of people with comparable jobs, because of high retail prices and low net salaries, little competition (don't know how it is now but they did not have the kind of cutthroat competition among retailers in Europe they have always had here) the amount of "stuff" you could buy was much less. America is drowning in material stuff. Houses, cars, electronics, clothing, even industrial buildings, you name it. We have a throw away society. Something breaks, you just throw it away, it's often cheaper to replace it. I once knew one guy who had 9 cars. The most I ever had at one time was only 4. It is hard to believe that there are people going hungry in America. I have to ask why. Food is so cheap and plentiful. The government gives away food stamps to people who are poor. It has stockpiled millions of pounds of cheese in salt caves for an "emergency." You have to wonder if any of it will ever be eaten. Yet we have so many hungry people here. What's wrong?
Right now our financial system is broken. It's the result of about 40 or 50 years of the government and industry being run by MBAs and lawyers. They care clueless. Give someone an MBA and they think they know how to run a business. Give them a law degree and they think they are smart enough to not just try legal cases but to make laws too. They have wrecked the country. Time to replace them with people who have actually experienced life as it is, not as it was taught in classrooms.
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MA, I agree, about unnerving qualities :o) of compressed wood chips and glue. Look suspicious to me, in other words.
Though, likewise, here all are builing of them, and all survive, and all are advertising them, to sell more houses built of it.
En vogue, most likely because the trend started "in the West", where innovations are picked up first, and then it travels down the markets (acc. to that MBA that you are so critical (rightly) about :o), it's called Int'l Product Life Cycle as far as I remember. Meaning all markets want things at their different times, money and other things permitting, so, gracefully :o) for sellers, if a thing can't be sold in one place stuck in the warehouses dead - there'd always be another market in another stage of the Life Cycle, where exactly that crap is wanted, it's their hey hop time. While the old place is saturated or whatever.
With this glue and chips the minus is you need to add all paraphernalia? para? anyway, linings, inside and outside and insulation, and be careful and all. Otherwise frost crack rain leak gone.
With logs (sorry, I am obsessed with getting somewhere them :o))))
- they stand frost themselves, and rain and leaks and all, without nothing extraordinary in terms of inside-outside lining. Wood-board outside, and those thin sheets of the same glue and chips - inside. Simply, to be able to stick wallpaper, so that your walls are straight, not curvy.
How do glue and chips without insulation hold warmth at minus 30?
They simply don't. A log does.
One thick pine-tree log wall by itself - even without straight walls - is a guarantee patented - that at -30 warmth will stay inside.
-30 outside, any heater inside, if you are separated from outside world by a wall made up of simple logs +20 guaranteed inside.
Holding 50 degrees C difference - that's what the pine-tree log insurance is.
That's why it's so badly wanted in our part of the world. And is priced accordingly! like black caviar! far higher than any glue and chips.
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When humid - your logs take in humidity. When dry - they slowly give it away. It's a climate control conditioner, self-activating, human, slow and natural. But they should be fat in diameter, so that you hardly embrace by arms or that you don't. And this makes basements expensive, because the house gets awful heavy.
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I think I saw the documentary you speak about, don't know from where but saw at nights, around last victory day, TV showed at about 3-4 in the morn! The voice sounded English to me, and it was many series, not one night. And looked very realistic to me, not like modern war revisionism, I even thought "why they all don't know now and say various crap while there is a good film in English saying very much how it was, agreeing with the Russian view".
As minimum, saw nothing disagreeable with the Russian understanding of war there. May be because lots of our footage included.
Don't know when it was done but must be people had more realistic view of the war back then then it is now, in some crazy quarters!
I wonder Jan_Keeskop if it ends with the Russian entry into China, that footage, then it is that film. Well, not ends, but has that war in as well.
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Ah, judgment has been returned on post 105: apparently the tree comment was immoderate, because it contained a non-English word. A redacted reposting follows:
geoffrey terry: On post 51, how much would you estimate your bipolar pumping project to cost?
Seraphim85: For post 57, it would still require an enormous infrastructure investment to move the electricity across the Mediterranean, wouldn’t it?
Jukka Rohila: In post 61, whether or not the results of Copenhagen were a failure depends upon what one’s expectations were for it. I don’t doubt that for some people, the results of Copenhagen were a success — due to having had different goals for it. What next? for the EU would depend upon each person asking the question, and each person’s readiness, willingness, and ability to pursue his goals.
angloscotty: For post 63, what would you recommend as answers to the global population question?
luke: On post 70, all tools have limited use… except duct tape. ;*)
WebAliceinwonderland: In post 72, Euro-4 is coming to Russia on New Year’s Day, so it sounds like Russian industry is closing the gap.
Regarding post 95, my dictionary gives larch as the English translation of [the immoderate Russian tree name]. Wikipedia lists three different larch species growing in Siberia. The wood from tamarack (a North American larch) is also recommended for outdoor uses, such as porch construction.
For post 99, perhaps the ZIP code from your Charleston would be appropriate? ;*) — 29401.
MarcusAureliusII: For post 81, that wouldn’t force a reduction of just European energy use; what it would do is set off a bidding scramble for the remaining oil and gas on the market. Everyone’s oil and gas would become more expensive, which would benefit the remaining suppliers, and which would force a reduction of energy use worldwide (due to price) — except for the place no longer selling their oil and gas to foreign customers.
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#73 EUprisoner209456731
"As for you being bored! I do not post here to entertain you."
Well you have certainly achieved that objective, entertaining you are not. Boring to the point of inducing sleep, possibly but entertaining no.
Many have made the point that they see the graft and corruption of the undeveloped/developing nations as a serious problem. It most certainly will be and the three ring circus that was Copenhagen did nothing to redress this.
Our problem seems to be that to take no action can only be seen to be foolish, but unless the action is concerted and world wide it will not have the necessary effect. Seems like we are stuck between a rock and a very hard place and it will be our children and grand children who will pay the real price. Complaints about spending money seem very petty if you consider just what future you maybe bequeathing them.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (104):
You are being ripped of with the prices of log cabins. I checked what log cabins cost in Finland, for example an easy to build up log cabin packet for 4,5mx4,4m cabin with two livable floors costs 4000e without VAT, add to this cost of foundation, a metal roof, insulation and interiors, still shouldn't cost more than 6000 - 8000e at total. The manufacturer says that two able bodied men can build the frame in just couple of days.
Maybe you should ask Putin for the Russian government to pay compensation from the money gotten from timber export tariffs to people who import wood back to Russia to replace wood exported out of the country! Just take example from Americans and call the law something like Law of Patriotic Import of Wood for the Glory of Russia.
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cool_brush_work: Agreed! The series was a stellar example of what television could have been, rather than the Who Wants to Make a Publicly Humiliating Spectacle of Himself? direction that it took.
MarcusAureliusII: When I was a hungry student, a friend had acquired a ten-pound (4.5 kg) block of “government cheese” from somewhere, and the lot of us decided to try it out in grilled-cheese sandwiches. The best thing about that cheese was its price; the experiment wasn’t repeated, despite the dearth of alternatives within our limited means.
WebAliceinwonderland: I think that it was filmed in the early 1970s. I watched it in the mid-1970s, one episode per week for six months or so. I haven’t seen it since [yet ;*) ], but its opening theme music still readily comes to mind. I don’t remember what it covered on the USSR v. Japan conflict, but my guess is that this series is what was shown on your TV.
Jukka Rohila: I’m sorry, I didn’t plan on going down this old familiar by-way. To try to bring it back towards the thread’s topic — I wonder if anyone has tried to estimate the amount of greenhouse gases produced between 1939 and 1945, how global temperatures could have been affected during that period?
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#77 Gheryando
"Lastly, Rupert Murdoch has made it his lifetime mission to discredit the European Union in the UK through his media outlets. I have no idea why since he's Australian but I would really like to know."
I can explain that. Rupert Murdoch holds dual nationality he is Australian by birth and a US citizen by choice. He made that choice when he bought FOX Studios because under the then existing SU laws you could not own a US media company unles you were a US citizen. There have been more than one attempt made within Europe to bring in such legislation and Rupert does not like this because he can't have yet another nationality. If the EU brought in legislation requiring media owners to be EU based and EU nationals Rupert would be forced to get rid of his UK assets and this is why he constantly attacks the EU.
Maybe it's time the much maligned 'evil EU' earned it's reputation and brought in such legislation, it would stop Rupert interfering in UK politics for one thing and that would definitely be a step forward.
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To Jan_Keeskop (121):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth%27s_atmosphere
There is graph that plots CO2 emissions from 1800 to this day. If you look at the graph what you can easily see is that after 1950 the CO2 emissions exploded. You should also note that oceans have largely in the past absorbed our CO2 emissions, but as with everything, there are limits on what our oceans can take and when we brake those limits the fun starts quickly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sink
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Re #122 and Rupert Murdoch
No, I'm not following you around. I also concur with your explanation of the unsavoury Murdoch's 'nationality' hopping.
However, I am puzzled about your 'EU' reference to ownership and nationality: I have not heard of these moves by the EU and was wondering how exactly they might do such a thing? Surely, Europe is not going to exclude anyone on grounds of 'nationality' from controlling businesses in the EU?
If EU did I believe somewhere in the region from 30 to 40% of UK-European firms would have to change the controlling shareholder stake! And what would be the point in any case: It's an international trading world?
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Just the AIG bailout alone is running into the hundreds of billions of US dollars. The NY Times yesterday or the day before cited a figure of 750Billion U$D, and rising.
So yes, it is absurd to speak of a 100 B fund as "a bug commitment."
It will require, in the end several Trillions of US currency (based on current values) -- but it will be well worth it, because, in the end, at least half of that money will be paid out in compensation to people working in the field, and will come right back in consumption & revenue.
The trick is to get the funds invested in green production now, so that when the compensation begins to flow it does not increase the emissions burden so much, but instead goes towards earth-friendly industries.
It can be done: it is not at all impossible. Those who imagine it is impossible should step aside and allow those of us who know how to get this done just get it done.
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Alice: so the question I have is:
Some Russians, notably a portion of the better, non-alcoholic parents & the new generation of pro-earth farmers, are figuring out that they need to live in harmony with the land, their family, their community -- what in the West is promoted as "sustainable" farming.
I know these people: and quite a few of them get promoted even on the rather desultory & off-kilter Russian TV programing.
But far too many Russians somehow believe the word "zapreshcheno" -- "forbidden" -- does not apply to them on any personal level.
They want everyone else to follow logical & ethical concepts, yet they do not apply them to themselves.
I have had at least 20 people during my last two-month stay tell me about driving: "Obviously it is impossible to get anywhere if you follow the rules of the road. Everyone knows the rules of the road are not for anyone to follow strictly."
After which, there would be some really horrendous, dangerous driving.
What happened to the feeling of pride -- of satisfaction -- attached to doing things intelligently, BY THE RULES, and also effectively?
And the same applies to so many other areas of life.
Russians have become a people of expert excuse-makers. There was "your friend" Vladimir Yakunin on BBC video, on the record saying "Russia is misunderstood."
Our people were given a great, incalculable natural treasure to hold in trust: THAT LAND, which is worth so much more than the majority of incompetents who defile it with their greedy, criminal schemes.
Will we rise to the moment to defend its integrity as a whole, healthy, vital zapovednik -- preserve -- for the benefit of human survival? In which case, cleaning it up, protecting it, managing it, maintaining it must become the No. 1 Priority of every single Russian soul out there?
Or are we going to follow Esau's example and sell our birthright for a bowl of lentils? Or a Hummer?
I note with some satisfaction that EGaidar kicked the bucket. Maybe it marks the beginning of the end of the culture of Greed, in Russia. Because that is what his fat little cheeks represented, to me.
I met him once, in the 1990s, courtesy of Sun Microsystems. He had excellent English, no manners to speak of -- and really, really lame ideas. You could tell all he was after was pleasing whomever would give him the fattest bank account.
And now, at the ripe age of 53 -- just a 15-16 months older than I am -- his tenure as midwife of Russian 20th century oligarchy comes to an abrupt end.
And by the way: what of that "pyramid" over the Kremlin zone of Moscow? A hoax? A mirage? Any eyewitnesses? Lenin's relatives dropping in to visit the corpse?
First there was the "round lightning over Moscow" a couple of months ago, and now this bizarre thing.
As the saying goes: A Russian won't come to his senses ("cross himself") until he hears the thunderclap.
Anyone coming to their senses yet? Was the pyramid searching for signs of intelligent life?
And if so, did they find any?
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Re 118
There is no simple answer to how to achieve a steady state population, certainly not by force or edict.Education is very important. Even in India there are regions with high educational standards, high quality of life, low poverty, and a birth rate of only 1.5 per fertile woman, with an average age at marriage of 28. Yet neighbouring regions have high birth rate poor education and age at marriage of 18.
The only certainty is that unfettered population growth is completely unsustainable, and whether we like it or not, lack of food and education will take its toll.We cannot carry on pretending otherwise.
Mankind has to realise that it is a tenant of the planet and not the master whose will must be obeyed. We are already too big for our boots.
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The way to achieve population sanity is to make responsible procreation the second lesson after the literacy lesson, on the first day in school -- and from thereon in.
No, that need not require explaining the functioning of the human reproductive system to five-year-olds if that is not what you want taught.
All it involves is putting the idea in the heads of Boys as well as Girls: "How old are you? How old were you a year ago? How old are you going to be next year?"
And then you ask: "And when you are big and strong and all grown up, who will you be? And who will you be like?"
And then you say: "And will you be having a little boy or a little girl just like you, when you are all grown up?"
And then you say: "How many boys or girls just like you do you think you would like to be taking care of, when you are the age of your Father/Mother/Grandpa/Sister/Uncle?"
You would be surprised how effectively the brains of very young children process information.
If you convey, at a very early age, the idea that it is important to Think about family size, that there is some Desire (Choice) involved -- and if you gather the inputs from the very young Boys & Girls about how they perceive family size, family relations & family responsibilities -- you will find that you have a very receptive audience even in the youngest groups.
And then you just have to reinforce the right ideas -- early on, well ahead of puberty.
If more policymakers spent at least a year teaching primary school children, first-years -- the really, really small ones -- they would have more confidence in the extraordinary potential of education policy, when intelligently, positively crafted, to shape adult behaviours.
We do succeed, everywhere on earth, in teaching most little ones to read, write and count.
We can also teach them to think about their options when it comes to assuming responsibility for the care of others. Most little kids especially do not naturally crave large families, especially when they are poor.
The "value" of a having a very, very big family of offspring is largely an idea invented by powerful, wealthy and ambitions clans, in most cultures. It has been enshrined in some religious ideas as well, for the reason that many religious authorities have also been obsessed with power, and so have participated in the culture of dynasties that competed for political & economic power, and so saw the number of sons and daughters to use to forge alliances with others as an important advantage -- especially in the days of short or uncertain life expectancy.
Those ideas can be reconfigured in the awareness of most people. And it is not just the Girls who need to be taught differently: it must also be the Boys who learn that having a Wife & Children is COMPLICATED, not just a natural & obvious consequence of growing up.
Yes, it is good to become a Parent -- but you must be an Intelligent Parent. You cannot view a human life as anything akin to a weed, or even a blade of grass, to be allowed to grow haphazardly "just because."
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Jan_Keeskop, yes, larch. I don't know even how it looks like, it's in Siberia (and in Canada and in America).
Now I looked I know I have one defective sample in the dacha, what I thought is an extraordinary sickly fir tree, shadowing my veranda window, an idiotic thin and bending stuff, with strange soft needles and branches way too far away from each other, and not even geometrical, someone's present must be from Siberia, some of fathers' friends brought over to plant. But now I see it's larch, by the cones. :o)
Jesus Christ. What an ugly sickly baby. Definitely feeling un-well in St. Petersburg.
While Russian wiki tells me it's supposed to be 100cm in diameter and straight, and grow at a rate of 1 metre per year, reaching btw 50 metres and 100 metres height (in Siberia).
Ours is thin as a hand, and there for 25 yrs, and managed to be barely 3 metres high. NOT promising as beams for my future new dacha.
Russian wiki also explains why Russians this side of Urals don't have it for the floors to say nothing of walls of their houses. "Siberian larch drowns in water same dense as iron therefore cannot be sent down or along the rivers like other timber." "Wood-workers hate it as it has so much tar? those? sticky ? things in that it spoils all the wood cutting instruments at once."
When I get fed up totally with my sickly imported sample I'll drown it in the pond! That's what I'll do.
:o))))
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Worse than larch in the dacha then looked only sun-flowers. Father brought from Ukraine as experiment. Then we lost them. Then we found them. There was a grove of bamboo :o)))), about 4-5 metres high :o))))), thin sickly shoots, disappearing up in the sky. And if you look at them from the 2nd floor of the house, LOL, you saw tiny yellow plates on top of them - poor sun-flowers tried "to get to the sun".
:o)))))
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Alice, have you tried actually taking care of the plants?
And have you tried talking with them? No, I am not kidding.
Treat a plant with the same care, attention, affection & dignity you accord a human presence -- assuming you do, and from your writing here I would assume you do -- and it will thrive.
Russians used to be really good with nature...
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Jan_Keeskop, yes, yes, 29401, Charleston! Will remember and use as as mantra. :o)))) For dialling codes in safe boxes LOL and other handy places :o))))
As it is I use the telephone I was taught when 2-3 years old not to be lost in the streets alone and tell strangers to dial if I am found in the Taurida park (knyaz' Potyomkin's ex-garden/Catherine the II lover No 15). Parents really worked hard on making me to remember it, apparently, as that's the only number I remember in my life. :o))))
Apparently with the address it was a no-go :o)))) but the home tel number I memorised somehow :o)))))
_____
Jukka, a friend of mine has married a Customs' officer. May be I should enquier enquier enque ASK what's the import tariffs on log cabins and we start a business ith you in the decline of our years. By simple look at the dacha village (800 houses) every second house needs re-placing by the new wooden house. OK, those who don't can still build a second one and rent it out in summer. That barack of 17 thousand dollars worth without technicalities, that my brother's friend finished this summer - he's going to lend lent? have "dachniki" dacha dwellers in it, in summers, and the dacha rental price in our village is 1,500 US dollars a month. ! He built this barack not for himself, but to rent it out, May-Sep. Many do this who have land by St. Petersburg.
2 floors you say? can't believe. Let's start re-export, and local Tajiks will be putting them together in Lahta.
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Maria-Ashot, glad to see you back.
First thing - I spotted you saw L. in the other thread! Great and wonderful. Too late to pass them over hello-s for Christmas now though
:o(
I am most fond of "I", on that side of the Atlantic.
Could be that you met "O" and family. Poor "O" couldn't even get to his house because of the 4 metre iron fence. But if you met "O" he would have complained to you, already.
On the pyramid hanging over Kremlin we aren't sure, because it's everywhere in photos and videos but not a single live muscovite on the ground who saw it. Appears either a fake or as it happens sometimes with those halo-s and various lighted things is seen only on film, when you take a chancy pic of Kremlin as a tourist.
Besides it's a grey, un-impressive triangle, nothing shiny or beautiful, and we initially thought may be another Bulava mis-travelling :o)))) but no, no sparks or anything interesting. Just a grey ugly thing.
Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper and Echo of Moscow both announced they welcome anyone who saw it not through lens but with own eyes, and nobody replied from Moscow. So, in tourist cameras and videos exclusively.
Maria-Ashot, while you are here, David here has been wondering where in internet to get hold of some Russian-Soviet films to see, and I didn't know, said when you are back on-line we'll ask you. Any ideas?
Or do you have them on DVD, video and never looked in the web?
The White Sun of the Desert I recommended David to see, and the Star of Captivating Bliss, and the Formula of Love, and may be Curcus! Circus! Curcus! or may be Volga-Volga, or "Cuban cossacks" or I don't know. What's the point to "recommend" if I can't advise where to get films.
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To WebAliceinwonderland (133):
Solaris by Andrei Tarkovsky
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069293/
In case of availability, if Amazon doesn't have it, you really don't want to have it.
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Maria-Ashot, you're kidding, the only thing I do is talk to various trees LOL! shaking various "paws" as hello-s and good-bye-s, not to miss offend someone :o))))) mostly apple-trees imploring them not to die out and freeze over, and may be even , like, kindly produce me 4 apples! instead of standard 2 per tree :o)))))
We've got one apple-tree father was silly named it after me. The source of my neverending concern since after :o)))) because I'm natutrally worried of its well-being :o)))) (never never do this!)
Well when that wonder finally came up with a single apple father had it gilded ! wrapped in gilded foil! and put on his shelf somewhere and admired for a long time :o)))) and annoyed me in parallel if I'm going finally to bring home "a baby in an apron" :o)))))
Nothing helps. They want sun and not to stand neck-high in water, the dacha is drowning.
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OK, Jukks as always, indE?spensible, indI?spensable - a treasure re links!
David, if to believe Jukks, there is Formula of Love (Count Caliostro and friends', Italians' adventures in Russia) (real thing he was here). What Russians in their dacha-s do with poor foreigners :o))))
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0216755/
Skip the beginning, Caliostro in St. Petersburg selling his formula of love, start when you see country scenes, Caliostro's carriage arrives to a Russian dacha estate. (gets broken there, to be more exact :o)))
Here is the Star of Captivating Bliss
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073933/
Also an old thing, but this one isn't funny and is long, you might get bored. About one young chap who desired to marry a French girl a nobody, a sewing lady, and his mum was against as that was one of the richest families in Russia. Anyway they fell in love, only he participated in nobility uprising against one of our tsars, and was packed away to Siberia, same Gulag, only 2 hundred years earler, together with the rest of his friends. 5 leaders of the plot tsar simply hanged up, in St. Petersburg here, in the St. Peter and Paul fortress.
Anyway the French girl fell to the feet of the tsar horses asking permission to marry a prizoner, and tsar kindly :o)))) allowed. And she followed the poor chap to Siberian uranium or whatever mines, where he sat in chains underground. The young guy's mum regretted deeply and profoundly that she didn't bless their love before, as the girl proved to be extraordinary decent, but it was too late. She tried to hold her, though, at home, to decorate the decline of own years, poured her in diamonds and tried to convince not to ruin her young life, following her silly son to Siberia. But the French girl was very stubborn and went and married him there. Along with other Russian wives, who also followed their husbands to Siberian mines. There is a set expression : "Decembrists' wives", meaning sacrifice, of those uprising in December participants' wives.
Any woman in Russia ever after who follows her husband in troubles be that prizon Siberia whatever, is called a "typical Decembrists' wife".
For they were richest families, and every girl who went against tsar desire had to sign a paper that all money goes to the state, estates given up, lands given up, children to be left behind at home forever never to see, and new kids should they be born in Siberia will be serfs!
Quite a paper to sign for a young rich girl.
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OK David,
if you search in Amazon for "Formula of Love", it comes up the third from the top, after some books and among hand lotions:o))) a DVD "Russian language only". $12.97!!!! Awful.
if you search in Amazon for "The White Sun of the Desert" it comes up first, "5 new starting from 16.48"!!! robbery.
if you search in Amazon for "The captivating star of happiness", it pops up second from the top, "two new at 9.94"!
I don't know. You'll get robbed this way, movie by movie. Must be another way. Will look up in Russian internet sources.
Jukka, this link of yours, international movie database, it's descriptions only ? you can't see any thing there, right?
A hoax, for Alices! What else could one expect from you! :o)))))
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And, David, don't even think to buy Solaris. You will die from boredom, it is long and ununderstandable.
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OK, David.
Google yaom.
Will give you a Russian site for on-line viewing direct. You can't copy a film there only to switch it on and watch on-line.
Their search line is stupid does not understand names of the films translated into English.
But reacts to some English in the way we need.
In their search line in the upper right hand corner fill in Irina Kupchenko. (name of one of the actresses there.)
The site opens just 2 films, and the one of them is The star of captivating bliss! finally!
Surely "captivating". After so much trouble!
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Wow webaliceinwonderland...
you're the poster of the day
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JK:
"MarcusAureliusII: For post 81, that wouldn’t force a reduction of just European energy use; what it would do is set off a bidding scramble for the remaining oil and gas on the market. Everyone’s oil and gas would become more expensive, which would benefit the remaining suppliers, and which would force a reduction of energy use worldwide (due to price) — except for the place no longer selling their oil and gas to foreign customers."
I don't think it works that way at all. By that logic, if nobody wanted any, the price would be infinite. By the law of supply and demand, when demand goes down (because Europe is cut off) but the supply remains constant, prices should tumble for those who have access to it. Europe would buy as much of it as it could from other sources to make up for its lost suppier but I think the ability to obtain full replacement by sea isn't there because of limits of the port facilities, perhaps even the number of ships. So if Europe were cut off from Russian oil, the price around the would drop.
US government cheese in storage is not meant as a gourmet food, it is meant to stay edible indefinitely and then to keep people from starving to death when it is needed. Anyway, it's still a matter of taste. When I lived in France, a friend of mine who had gone back to the states for a holiday came back with a container of Wispride processed "American Cheese" as a gift for a mutual French friend of ours. She asked me some time later if there wasn't something wrong with it. I tasted it and it was fine...to an American palate. But it was not comparable to anything the French were accostomed to or would like. I wasn't surprised. Chaque un a son gout as the French say...at least that's what I think they say...sometimes. At that time the song "Popcorn" was popular but popcorn was unknown in France. At some French friends' request I came back from a holiday in the states with some. Also requested was peanut butter. They'd also never seen whipped cream in an aerosol can. Funny, America's Test Kitchen, one of my favorite cooking shows did a report on supermarket bought whipped cream as a substitute for fresh made whipped cream recently. They hated all of them including my favorite RediWhip. I found out when I brought some back to France that RediWhip will last and last and last unrefrigerated. Evidently there are enough chemicals in it to keep it from going bad for a very long time....unlike the stuff I ate in France which sometimes seemed to be sour immediately.
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OK, thank you Web Alice, I do like culture AND history. :)
BTW, what about the birch tree, is that emblamatic of Russia? White Birch? In the British movie, Dr. Zhivago (Pasternick-sp?) there were so many birch trees -- maybe they are called silver birch.
It's probably not what you guys were talking about. :)
But, thank you, I will look. I need to see "Solaris," because I like Science Fiction--especially the "hard" science fiction--not space opera --type movie).
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Dr Zhivago, I realize, is written originally by a Russian writer -- Pasternick
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Yes, Cheryando, we've got "metel'" /snow storm behind the window, what else to do. Literally, "a sweeper" :o)))) It sweeps snow at you like a floor brush. Window in designs, don't know how it's called in English.
For that matter did any one see Christmas decorations in shops which are NOT made in China? :o))) Millions and billions and all chains and balls and what not are China-made. By the way next year 2010 the year of tiger, white tiger, by Eastern calendar, we've got heaps of tigers in all formats here don't know how about in the EU?
Saw 2 hand-painted Ukrainian balls for the Christmas tree with idiotic tigers and a lonely pack of Russian glass balls hand-painted that's all! All the rest Chinese!
Today's newspaper advises me that "if you want your tree decorated "traditional Russian" way - keep to all multi-coloured things hanging on, and if you want it "traditional European" way - keep to 1 colour or 2 colours max. And if you want vintage hang on CD discs :o))) or forgot what else.
Traditional Russian I'd say is to install the tree into a bucket of water on the 30th of December and keep it till end of March! If you are lucky. Whereas "traditional European" never saw Christmas trees kept longer than for a week :o))))
David, Pasternak, right, a muscovite. The end of Doc Zhivago is poems, un-usual format for a novel. One starts
"It swept and swept across all Earth, towards all limits
A candle burned all night on desk, a candle burned.
And there dropped two little shoes with knock knock :o) on the floor
And wax, like tears, off the desk, onto the chairs was falling in droplets
And all was getting lost in white fog, in white and grey-haired
A candle burned all night on desk, a candle burned.
:o)
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Yesterday was nasty day, birthday of Stalin. Various cock-roaches normally crawl out on the day. Quiet, though, this year. The shortest day in the year, the longest polar night. Today? Or tomorrow? From Wednesday I think the day will start adding up :o)
Oh, Saakashvili kicked out a trick, had monument to Georgians fallen in the 2ndWW blown up. Not the whole piece, just 120 tons of it! :o))))
The wall, high wall, with an arch-like opening in it, where stands a Georgian knight on a horse, under the arch way. The horseman he exported, and the wall blew up. Big scandal we wrote a note of protest, Georgians also protesting as they can. Those who are not modern war "revisionists".
A charmer, every 10th Georgian fell in that war.
Saakashvili wants a new parliament building in the place, and Georgia is so small, 50 metres to the left to the right in the field they couldn't :o))))
Huge scandal, in our quarters, especially that he blew up without a warning, afraid of protests, and 2 people passer-by-s were torn to pieces.
What can Saakashvili possibly "revise" about that war is beyond anyone's understanding.
Of the good things we heard that the sign over Aushwitz the Polish police has found. My mum says granted teenagers, Aushwitz is in a very poor, workers' quarters of Poland, has always been un-safe there, you couldn't walk out in the evenings because of street gangs' crime. Must be stupid youngsters.
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I dont walk our streets at night here...lol...there are kids with nothing to do and plenty of time to do it. :)
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WA
Its a bittersweet poem, but with foreboding this one poem. Thank you. (I love bittersweet stuff--its life--cathartic) This, also, captures one's attention.
I guess, finally, I will read the book. I need more poetry in life :)
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#141 "So if Europe were cut off from Russian oil, the price around the would drop."
To coin a phrase, What exactly in hell are you talking about?
Please don't tell me that you really believe this Marcus? The price of Russian oil might drop briefly, but only a fool would think that global suppliers wouldn't be inundated with increased demand from Europe, using the opportunity to increase prices as countries bid against each other.
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#124 cool_brush_work
You Think I'm that vain huh! No,I have seen you on this blog many times.
Re Murdoch News Corp and Europe. I re read my #122 and realised that I could have phrased it better. On three occasions that I can think of where Murdoch/News Corp have been sniffing around European media (Bartelsmann, Canal +, The Independent} suggestions have been made in the European press and by MEP's that such legislation should be brought in. The equally unlovely M Berlusconi has also made this suggestion on a couple of occasions, but that is probably just to wind up Rupert.
Re the mechanics of such legislation, I think that it was only ever suggested for media ownership and never taken much beyond the suggestion stage. It did, however, ruffle Rupert's feathers and both he and his sons have remarked on it on several occasions usually at the same time as they are describing the BBC as the 'Evil Empire'.
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Re 128 from Maria Ashot
This is the most sensible contribution to the population growth debate I have read. How much more sensible it would have been to spend the time devoted to the shambolic Copenhagen conference, if we could have agreed globally that the population issue is even more imortant than curbing CO2 emissions, and that education is the key?
The most senseless analysis of the outcome which emerged from Copenhagen is that its main failure was a lack of a legally binding agreement. No one seems to have commented on the impossibility of enforcing a legally binding committment on a nation. What is the rest of the world supposed to do? Wipe it off the global map? What posturing nonsense!
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pcii;
If Russia cut Europe off from it's exports of oil and gas, prices around the world would suddenly drop because of a sudden surplus of capacity. Of course in Europe they'd go through the roof. But I wasn't thinking about Europe. In my calculus of the world, Europe doesn't count for much. Europeans don't like to face that fact but the little demonstration at the end of the meeting in Hopelesshagen last week shows who the real players in the world are.
I'm not here to teach you economics pcii. I Strongly recommend you read Samuelson's textbook if you are interested in learning something about it and how markets work. It's the one I used in college. Samuelson died within the last couple of weeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_(textbook)
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Speaking about being cut off, I noticed that Chunnel train traffic is still ground to a halt with tens of thousands of people stuck in France, unable to get home. The explanation I heard on TV is that the Chunnel train was developed to survive wet heavy snow but not light dry snow and so when this snow melted inside the chunnel the entire thing suffered a catastrophic electrical short circuit. Hundreds of people were forced to walk with their luggage however many miles through the service tunnel to get out. What a plan. What technology. A hundred years of building electrified railway systems which operate in every conceivable weather condition and this is the best Europe can do. They want to have a competitive space program, build monster jumbo jets, supercolliding atom smashers, global positioning satellites, save the world from climate change all through technology but they can't even make electric trains that operate when the snow is the wrong consistancy. And people wonder why I chide Europe for its backwardness. Hey, any word from the Beagle II yet? :-)
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#151 MarcusAureliusII
During the course of this particular thread I had become to think that Marcus had had some kind of personal restructuring a 'seminal moment' even. There were interesting posts that refrained from the usual tirade of 'US is the best and the rest are trash' variety. I put it down to the arrival of the festive season but no, it couldn't last, here we go again foaming at the mouth 'rabid US engineer bites European'
Such a pity.
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#151 MarcusAureliusII
There's a fatal flaw in your logic. If Russia cut Europe off from it's oil and gas the first problem would be for Russia. No income, the second for Europe but where would this surplus of oil and gas go? The answer to that is, nowhere for the short to medium term, there would be no surplus because it takes a long time to build pipelines to new customers. There aren't enough pipes now which is why we are building more, so just switching the supply to other customers is not an option.
I would have thought an engineer would have thought of that. Your cold war thinking needs adjusting. Russia needs Europe probably more than Europe needs Russia.
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U-Boat;
I strongly urge you to leave the thinking to others. It can be very dangerous if you are not properly equipped and trained for it. Many who shouldn't have made the attempt have tried it anyway and look at what a mess they've left the world in. And I'm afraid they're still at it. Try not to contribute to thought pollution. We're neck deep in it as it is. BTW, got a bicycle? The least they could have done was provide bicycles for those trapped in the Chunnel who could pedal them. No Mopeds though.
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#151 "If Russia cut Europe off from it's exports of oil and gas, prices around the world would suddenly drop because of a sudden surplus of capacity."
Stick to doing the wiring Sparky, you're knowledge of economics is sadly lacking.
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U-Boat, why don't we just try it and see who's right. I said Russia would have to be subsidized for its loss. China could afford it...to keep all that oil and gas in reserve for pipelines built to China in the future. They could buy it now, take delivery later, lock in the price to assure their future supply. Russia will be more than happy to take their money and the Chinese have little else they can do with it now anyway.
There was a TV ad by a tire company in the US called Armstong once. It went "You go in snow or we pay the tow." Not even a ferry or two to back up the trains in case they ever failed. No "plan B" whatsoever. That's the Europe I've come to know; "Thimk Ahead." Could it get any worse...or funnier? So when all those Brits stuck in France run out of money on just surviving until they can get back home as the French fleece them in their plight (they're famous for that of course) what will the French government or SNCF say about it when they can't even afford to eat in those exorbitant restaurants anymore where the meals leave you with a half empty feeling..."let them eat cake?"
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pcii, it's is very discouraging but hardly surprising at least to me that some, possibly many Europeans can't understand the law of supply and demand. Then is it also not surprising that they can't land on Mars without crashing into it? Or that they can't build an electric railway that will operate if the snow is the wrong consistency? I can see why issues of the quality of education come up so frequently in PMQT. UEA was just one more recent demonstration of that reality too.
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Mavrelius is in Christmas moods, but he simply can't allow himself to miss the time to remind all about gas supplies when it got cold for a change for a sec in Europe. :o)))))
When next opportunity arrives is un-clear, climate so un-reliable, so now is the best time to scare :o))))
Personally MA I think that whatever Europe does in terms of reducing CO2 is irrelevant, while, how to say, there is a little bit of forest in Russia left. If it gets improved - wonderful and beautiful, but if it doesn't - while there is forest left - it will compensate for, somehow.
On how the sales of gas contribute to the growth in CO2 emissions in Europe I don't know.
For that one needs , someone like Jukka able to fish out old statistics, Gazprom statistics - how much European consumption of Russin gas grew over the past 45 years.
One must remember we sell same gas through the same (so far) Ukrainian and Belorussian tubes to the same Europe since long long time, since USSR, for 40 years plus.
Now, if the tubes are the same diameter - it can very well be - Europe they consumes the same amount, more or less, for the past 40 years.
Then, as their CO2 grew - it may be it's not because of gas arriving through those old tubes, but something else contributing?
For the amounts one needs Gazprom statistics for the 20 years and of the same Gazprom but Soviet state owned for the 20 yrs before the "modern" on.
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#155 MarcusAureliusII
Have you never thought, unlikely as that might be, that your brand of pathetic nastiness is just sad. We can all do it, it's easy and childish.
On the subject of thinking and trains I can only suggest that you consider the following 'when they were passing out brains you thought they said trains and got a slow one.'
There you are, I've come down to your level I hope it makes you happy.
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MAII, all of the above: utterly inane.
So you propose that China puts in the place the infrastructure in place to take Europe's current share of Russian gas? Do you think that in the mean time the Euros won't be negotiating and prospecting elsewhere (they already are, I've had some involvement).
As for the tunnel. Let's get this straight, you're criticising a continent that actually has workable trans-national passenger train services. You, the American capitalist, also appear to be suggesting that the state should have some ferries on standby, just in case.
Quoting some ancient tv advert does not lend gravitas and wisdom to your postings. Nor does it back up anything you have said. Just what is your point?
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WA;
"Personally MA I think that whatever Europe does in terms of reducing CO2 is irrelevant"
Whatever Europe does in terms of anything is irrelevant.
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Well. As a matter of fact I thought I care what Britain does in terms of reducing CO2. And Iceland. From our, Russian perspective.
The air moves from left to right, in this continent, and the biggest channel of air transfer rotates constantly on the 60th level, with decreasing amounts of transfer down to 45th.
We here in European Russia get our air from Northern Europe, from the West, we get North of Britain air in a day time. You can throw up a letter into the air in Yorkshire, so to say, and get it in St. Petersburg in a day time. Without any mail service :o)))
This is the known 60th phenomena, the great 60th' transfer of the globe. Like a Golfstream, only airy one.
The 60th air transfer mighty pull West-East works 60% time of every year, in 100% capacity, and just 15% of time is when Europe gets the Siberian air, from the East, in reverse order, when things get upsie down, against the stream.
The rest of the time is pour over from the South, pour over from the North, but honestly these are just violations and fringes on the scheme of events, the great and mighty constant West to East traffic.
What's there, in terms of cleanliness, on the 60th to our left side I wonder. 50th also count, but less so.
I hope nothing much, it's very up North.
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re #162 MarcusAureliusII - You, my friend, are a troll.
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#164 Gheryando
I object. This is anti trollism at it's worst most trolls are nice people, wouldn't let my daughter marry one but.......
#163 WA
Interesting point that which brings me back to my thoughts at the height of the cold war and the wisdom of the USSR ever using all those nukes on Western Europe. You'd have to be pretty desperate before you did it. Let's just be grateful it never happened although MA11 would have loved it. Just think, all us nasty ungrateful European socialists and all of you unthinkable creepy communists wiped out in one go. If I don't speak to you again before Friday I wish you a wonderful festive season and a happy and healthy 2010.
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To MarcusAureliusII (152):
You left out that oil is a fungible commodity. If for some reason Russia wouldn't sell oil to Europe, but would sell it to other markets instead, then there would be no effect on market price of the oil. And as oil is a fungible commodity Europe could import oil easily with tankers from other oil producers. Now if Russia would not sell oil to Europe and wouldn't sell the surplus oil to anyone, then the whole world would have to pay higher prices for oil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungible
I should also add that Europe uses less oil per capita than the USA and reaches same GDP nominal per capita figures consuming much less oil than the US. For example...
US 24.8 bbl/year per capita
US GDP nominal 47,440$ per capita
US 1 bbl/year produces 1913$
...compared to...
France 11.9 bbl/year per capita
France GDP nominal 46,037$ per capita
France 1 bbl/year produces 3868$
Germany 12 bbl/year per capita
Germany GDP nominal 44,729$ per capita
Germany 1 bbl/year produces 3227$
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
The point being that Europe is less dependent on oil than the US to keep its economy running.
And lastly but not least, 32.9% of oil and 40,4% of gas consumed in Europe comes from Russia...
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Energy_production_and_imports
So excuse me when I disregard your bleak story of how vulnerable Europe is.
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U44:o)66:o)131:o) thank you very much.
Also, best Christmas wishes to you, in the un-likely event that we won't speak before Friday.
And any way we have here heaps of Christmases, never late to congratulate LOL Russians :o)))), 24th-25th "the Western way" - 31st Int'l New Year - 6th-7th January "the Russian way" - 13th of January "Old New Year" :o))))) (all the havoc caused by 2 weeks' differences btw Julian and Gregorian calendars).
So, really, one should try very hard here "to miss the important date" :o)))), one has nearly a month time to deliver presents, pay visits, arrange parties and send post-cards :o))))
But of course "the Western way" comes soonest, already this week, so a Very Merry Christmas to you! (for starters :o))))
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And with the snow traffic back-log in Europe elsewhere I would also recommend LOL to relax a little bit about "making it there" by all means by the 24th, remember there is another calendar, always forget which is which, Julian it is that 25th of December is this week? and by Gregorian today is only 22-13 = 9 December today? Or the other way around?
If people lived in snow like we do, preventing travel when it intensifies, they'd also knew the use of having 2 calendars in operation, just in case you get stuck in a snow pile on your way to "Christmas party" :o)))) and kept spare 13 days for emergencies :o)))
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#166 Jukka Rohila
Excellent but Marcus will either ignore it completely or rubbish it on the grounds that some your information comes from Wikipedia.
But there you go we know better.
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And, yes, a correct observation, strange :o))) that didn't become mass public knowledge and understanding on your side before :o))))
For Russia to throw a bomb left is the same as spit against the wind.
Satisfaction, :o))) so to say, guaranteed :o))))
BBC Weather knows, all airlines' pilots know, it 100% of the time takes an airplane 20 minutes more time to fly Moscow-Frankfurt, Moscow - London, St. Petersburg - Paris, St. Petersburg - London because you fly to Europe against the wind.
And much quicker on return to Russia, which gives airplanes more time to taxi around in the fields, or to prepare for take-off, take their time, in other words in before and after the flight business. In schedules fly times are the same. In practice - you are always less in air on the way from Europe to Russia, flying on the wave, of the stream.
Chernobyl was a nasty exception. They started repairs selecting for it that minimum 15% of reverse transfer stream! From Siberia into Europe, combined with an in-flow South-North, the most abnormal weather pattern.
Never normally North of Russia has an ounce of air from the Black Sea and South.
Right they say that troubles don't arrive alone, but in trio-s.
That's why the Ukrainian air mass went not East, where it ought to have done, to settle on Ural mountains, but vertically up North! Was in St. Petersburg in a day, in Finland, in Sweden, Belorussia simply had tons of it! whereas normally they wouldn't get a gulp! total disaster.
Ukrainians can't do anything right, :o)))) even to chose a normal time to fix Chernobyl.
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And Ukraine itself got nil! Chernobyl located on the North of it. Nothing went East and South, all West and North instead!
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#170 WebAliceinwonderland
"Ukrainians can't do anything right, :o)))) even to chose a normal time to fix Chernobyl."
Don't cry WebAlice, don't cry.
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Maria Ashot: From your post 126, it sounds as though there are still many Russians who take greater pride and satisfaction in doing things despite the rules — which could just as well describe many Americans (not to mention our own considerable prowess in excuse-making). Perhaps this somehow ties into Jukka Rohila’s theory of extra-Europeans?
angloscotty: On post 127, given the exclusions of force and edict on family size, it would seem unfair to refer to leaders as innumerate. I doubt that they are unaware of projections of population levels and energy usage — rather, that their acute awareness of it was precisely what caused them to offer those wheelbarrowfuls of money to the developing world, that they ought to accept such a payoff in return for forswearing the developed world’s own path of development — that their own development should take the sustainable high road, while accepting those brightly coloured stacks of paper as full amends for the developed world’s soiled path. Do as we say, not as we do!
WebAliceinwonderland: For post 129, I don’t know about the Siberian larches, but the tamarack doesn’t tolerate shade well — is your dacha’s larch in a sunny spot? If the Chinese are getting your larches, and they’re not being floated across the border, then whatever is transporting them south ought to be able to transport them west of the Urals too, no?
In post 137, that movie-by-movie robbery is what keeps our media executives in the lifestyles to which they have become accustomed. (Those prices are typical here.)
For post 144, I didn’t know that the Keeskop Christmas tree traditions were traditionally Russian! Our tree gets a chaos of colour, and we usually try to keep the tree up until Easter. ;*) We use a homemade automatic watering system: a 20-litre water-cooler jug sits on top of a five-litre pail; the pail has a small hole near the top, to allow aquarium tubing to run from the bottom of the pail to the tree’s water reservoir. The pail and jug sit on top of a toddler’s stepstool. Once the vacuum is established in the tubing, gravity keeps the tree reservoir filled with water, and the jug can be filled (with a few ml of bleach added to prevent unwelcome buildup in the tubing) as needed without disrupting the vacuum. Mrs K. decided to try LED lights on the tree this year (Chinese, as one might expect); to my eyes they’re overly bright for the purpose, but perhaps they’ll tone down (or maybe I’ll get accustomed to them).
On post 163, I didn’t know about 60° North hosting such a superhighway of wind — obviously of importance for Piter! For some reason we’re more familiar with the “Roaring Forties” of the southern hemisphere over here — perhaps due to trade routes of the clipper ships before the Panama Canal opened.
In post 168, the Julian calendar is “late” from the Gregorian perspective, due to the Julian having more leap days than necessary to synchronize with Earth’s orbit: the October Revolution happened in November, and Julian 25th December happens in January.
MarcusAureliusII: On post 141, cutting Europe off from Russian energy would not cause European demand to decrease; Volkswagen AG isn’t going to get its welding done on pedal power! Europe’s demand would flow to suppliers not currently serving the European market. You’re right in that its demand could not be completely met by shipped supplies; the insufficent supply would drive prices up, as I noted in 118.
I never claimed that government cheese was a gourmet food; I did have expectations of it tasting like cheese, though. Its best use would be as an ingredient in cheese sauce, say for macaroni. To be fair, the tinned government beef was better than the cheese (I never did find out where he got them…); shredded rather than ground, quite edible with some garlic and a little salt and pepper, with only an occasional bit of bone or gristle.
Were I to live abroad, I think that the only food I would miss is a certain mayonnaise whose brand name depends on which side of the Rockies it’s sold on. [I know that it’s available in Canada, so I’d be able to get my fix there. ;*) I wonder if the Rockies determine its brand name there as well?]
Jukka Rohila: Regarding post 166, part (but not all) of the reason for that disparity is the greater population density of France and Germany as compared to the US, which reduces transport costs, and increases the viability of passenger rail service, which is far more fuel-efficient per person-km than automobiles are.
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To Jan_Keeskop (173):
Well, population density plays only into a certain point...
Finland 15.1 bbl/year per capita
Finland GDP nominal 51,588$ per capita
Finland 1 bbl/year produces 3416$
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_consumption
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
And before somebody makes a point that we are all packed into a one corner or inside huge cities, let me point out that A) 61% of our population lives in urban areas (in US 79%), B) Helsinki metropolitan area has 1 million inhabitants and 1335.49 person per square kilometer, C) all other urban centers are small and bundled with detached houses, etc..
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/finland_statistics.html
In essence, I would say that you really can't explain the disparity between US and European countries with just noting the differences in population density.
Note* The German figure should be 3727$ if you are wondering, I made an typing error with that.
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#173 Jan_Keeskop
"Regarding post 166, part (but not all) of the reason for that disparity is the greater population density of France and Germany as compared to the US, which reduces transport costs, and increases the viability of passenger rail service, which is far more fuel-efficient per person-km than automobiles are."
Whilst I agree that this could be a contributing factor I would think the US consumers prediction for very large inefficient car engines would be more of the reason, and of course the reason why they are so popular is the very cheap price of gasoline in the US. If you they had to pay around $7 a gallon I wonder would there be such a market for fuel inefficient engines?
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I agree, I think where it is less efficient - you simply don't want it to be more efficient what to bother :o))))
NORMAL countries, Jukks :o)) don't sit hysterically compare percentages, but simply live as they are used to :o))))
No idea what's Russian GDP. Nobody knows, wonders, and sleeps better for it, I suspect! :o)))))
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Looked up. oj, 11 or 12 thousand dollars. oj.
But then, must be about right. Say, one half is stolen (black to grey market shades represening from 60 to 40 per cent of economy, depending on the times :o)))), 22 to 24 thousand dollars must be about right.
Say, who ever bought an apartment stating the correct purchase sum in papers? One sum in papers, another in cash (we buy houses for cash exclusively :o))))
Well, I did, once, but only because I had back then high official salary and could get some taxes back. And the sellers fought tooth and nail with me, un-willing to get a paper telling how much they've received.
By the way I tried to do it via bank, but bank was so capricious and confused all enormously, several meetings with the bank manager how to arrange it that I bring money to the bank and then banks gives it later to the sellers, resulted in nothing. Either it was because all back then sold apartments for dollars or euros, and bank had to convert them into roubles and we were all losing much, or something? Forgot.
In any case apartments in Russia are bought by extraordinary tricky way. One side rents a hole in the metal box in the bank's basement, for several days, and stuffs it with cash dollars or euros.
The keys from the safe box are given forgot to who.
Not to the seller, or he will open and run with the money, without selling the apartment.
1 key to the buyer definitely, so that he can take his money back if the deal does not work out the last minute.
The second key? To the agency, the mediator, in the sale, I think.
So that without the real estate agency the buyer can not take money back.
But then if the buyer does not show up with the key, then the real estate people can't pass over the money to the seller either. ?
I remember it's awful tricky and there is a bug somewhere.
People lose kilos of nerves on this money pass-over, when property in Russia changes hands.
Because it's a 2 stage process, a visit to the notary, when one sells one buys notary verifies the deal.
And then this notary doc has to be submitted to the city's state property records agency, who accepts kilos of papers (+the notary doc), processes it for a couple of days, and then issues a new doc, for the rights to the apartmen/house, to the new owner, verifying that the deal is clean, all papers submitted correctly, there are no 3rd parties in their internal records holding rights for the same piece of property, and only after the buyer gets this certificate for property - the deal is complete.
All these 2-3 days the cash rests in a safe box in banks' basement, and all are nervous, because the documents could be returned uncertified, and the deal is broke.
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To say nothing that the notary's sale document states one amount, and in the bank's safe box lies totally another amount in cash. :o)))))
People get grey-haired :o)))) every time you sell or buy something.
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And the fun to check 100-dollar banknotes if they are false or not! :o)))
A special cashier desk girl is normally rented from the bank with the dollar-checking machine - and does it twice! When all are present when money is deposited.
And just in case again, because of this nightmare with keys to the safe-box - when money is extracted out!
Just to remember, hair raises up on head.
The real estate guys are though always trusted to know the real amount of the deal. By their papers the deal is for one amount, by state registration bureau - for another amount.
Nobody never compared records, don't know why, I guess because this suits someone somehow. ? Or simply nobody bothers.
And anyway the real estate by idiotic Russian law carries nil responsibility for the deal, they are there exclusively for fun, to charge money for bringing buyer and seller together, so that they find each other.
But they carry no responsibility by law in case there happen later more interesting unknown people to own this apartment, some relatives temporarily away LOL returning later, say, from army or from prizon :o)))) or totally different people, at once :o))) to the ones who "sold it" :o)))) , by fake documents or? forgot other scares.
Ah, if money are false or the buyer runs away with the money after the apartment becomes "his". Whatever - real estate is unanswerable. They are there only "to advise", give counsel. That's why may be nobody checks their records - irresponsible people, what to take of them ! :o))))
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Jukka Rohila: I agree — population density is not the only difference. This is why I’d stated part (but not all).
U4466131: The spring of 2008 showed that petrol at $4 per US gallon (66 p per litre) was sufficiently high to leave SUVs and large pickup trucks to rust on dealers’ lots. Given the Big Three’s dependence upon the fat profit margins on these types of vehicles to subsidise the lower margins on their more fuel-efficient cars, and their inability to adapt quickly enough to this change in US consumer sentiment, it’s not surprising that they got into financial hot water.
My older car (Japanese marque, made in North America) was offered in North America with a six-cylinder engine, with the option of an eight. At the time I read that it was sold in Europe and Australia (if not elsewhere) with a four-cylinder engine, with the six as an option. Had it been offered here with the four as an option, I would have taken both the four and the six for a test drive; given my general apathy about 0 to 100 km/h performance, there would’ve been an excellent chance of the four being our pick. Sometimes the available choices constrain one’s actions. [There, another fine specimen of American excuse! ;*) ]
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Juka Boxa #166, U-Boat #169
"You left out that oil is a fungible commodity."
As usual Juka your posting is absurd and irrelevant. Oil and gas are only fungible to the degree that the means to deliver them are available. If they were truly fungible, then when Russia cut off supplies to Ukraine and much of Europe was left out in the cold as an unintended consequence, they would have simply bought what they needed elsewhere. But they couldn't because they don't have the means to offload, store, and transport it from other sources. So oil and gas are not entirely fungible at all. Oil arriving by ship from one country is fungible with oil arriving by ship from another. In that way it is fungible. Russia lost not only revenue because Ukraine didn't pay but because much of Europe couldn't buy. But Russia would cut off its nose to spite its face. Meanwhile, the cost to foot the bill for Ukraine was a pittance compared to what it cost Europe to shut down. But would Europe negotiate sharing the cost of Ukraine's gas and oil? Not on your life. They too would cut off their noses to spite their faces. Now what more does anyone need to know to conclude that Europeans are mean and stupid? And it will happen again and they will all deserve it.
Comparing anything like energy consumption whether per capita or per unit GDP in the US with Europe or China is also absurd. Distances between major population centers in the US dwarf those in Europe as does the mobility. So do extremes of climate. When I lived in France nobody even had screens on their windows to keep the flies and mosquitoes out during the summer let alone air conditioning. Many had little or no heat. Conditions like that in the US would be considered inhuman, even fatal in many places. No there is no way to compare. Also comparing economies based on current currency exchange rates or even PPP is a very questionable business. Absurd and irrelevant. There are enormous qualitative differences that can't be quantified...like having one common language and culture.
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Jan_Keeskop,
very scientific system of watering a Christmas tree I'm impressed.
What's "LED" lights?
Yes, multi-colour is traditional approach in our quarters, but these days all are impressed with euro trees in pictures looking all dark blue and in ribbons, with bows tied on I mean (un-usual here) or silver and dark-blue, or all red, or red and golden, and try to (silly) imitate.
Old ones, the decorations, were all eatable + glass figurines. Nuts in golden foil, marcipans, candies etc. A red star on top granted! :o)))) Kremlin-like. Plus "silver rain" (glistening foil strips)
A figurine of Ded Moroz (grand dad Frost) under the tree, by the bucket :o))) and presents under the tree as well.
Well I guess it's the same concept plus/minus Kremlin star LOL everywhere.
Now those Soviet toys sell for awful amount of money, various cosmonauts glass figurines, sputniks, sporty Soviet skiiers, but all normal people have them long broken as it happens with glass.
As to larch un-transportable over the Urals, I guess before was somehow transportable, in trains, but then the last century really no time for nothing :o)))) And now that glue+chips imposed on you everywhere as a building material, as it's easier to import them from abroad agreeing with foreigners than to arrange any thing internally to be obtained and transported from one place to another :o))))
With China I guess with the amount of Chinese on our side they take the trouble somehow, agreeing with each other, and trusting each other. From one of their company to another of their company, without Russians on the way to the border. Their business is all-inclusive, they don't take in outsiders, and trust only each other, in transporting, in all, in finance, it's from hands to hands.
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WA;
LEDs are light emitting diodes. Normal incandescent lights are made by putting a tungston filament (wire) into an evacuated glass bulb. Electricity heats the filament and causes it to glow. Very inefficient. The quality of light can be fairly good but it consumes a lot of electrical power for a given amount of light. Fluorescent tubes used in most modern offices are more efficient. They emit light by ionizing an invisible gas which strikes phosphors on the inner surface of the tube causing it to glow. They are more efficient but the quality of light is only fair to poor. Light emitting diodes are semiconductors something like transistors made from silicon crystals doped with impurities but when you pass current through them they emit light. Many small lights on radios and other electronic devices have used them for a very long time, many digital readouts that glow use them. Now they can be made much brighter. The quality of light is excellent, they are very efficient, and they can be dimmed with normal dimmers unlike fluorescent lamps which require very expensive dimming ballasts if they can be dimmed at all. When production scales up LEDs will replace incandescent and fluorescent lamps completely. They should also have a very long usable life, many times that of incandescent lamps. New television and computer flat panel displays are being made from them too and they will replace LCD (liquid crystal displays) and plasma TVs in the not too distant future. They are sharper, brighter, and more efficient.
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Mavrelius, exactly what I needed as read for the night. I will save it for later, though, as just ran with Ro-Ro knee-deep in snow, then we found another dog at 3 in the morn. and had a fight, then he was coming back o senses in a snow pile, then I pulled out ice that stuck btw his fingers in his furry paws, then cat's ear bled and we dashed around wiping it and consoling cat and ate something to forget quicker about it (I mean, not me), then I kept cat out of the window in the frost so that bleeding stop somehow, now I promised cat a consolation walk to the 7th floor "the view to the ocean".
Then will read about your lights hope it will console me.
And I thought that "LED" is what they write on those sticky papers attached to suitcases you check in in the airports. It's int'l abbreviation for St. Petersburg in aviation - still LED. Like LHR , etc. Leningrad.
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:o)
In the line "reason for divorce" was written: he's been sending our dialogues to the jokes of the day' site and whole country laughed at me.
Question "What will I become in three years' time" is un-interesting in Russia for only one man.
In 2009 in AutoVaz was introduced into practice 2,700 rationalisation suggestions.
And should have been - one. :o))))))
Following the multiple requests of the fighters with climate, it was decided to put the global warming on freeze.
Fin. crisis 1998 - lost all earned in life.
Fin. crisis 2008 - lost all earned in life and stayed owning as much in credits.
"Which American doesn't like fast food?"
Nikolay Vasilievich Gogol'
:o)))) ("Which Russian doesn't like fast ride")
The fact that island-state Nauru decided to recognise Abkhasia gave Russia an idea to invite the Dutch and wash-up (create) several islands more!
:o)))))
Russian-American relations didn't change because they were pressing the button "reset", and should have been - "update".
:o(
In response to the popular foreign book "Dao Toyota" we shall publish our motherlandy edition "Alternatively gifted AutoVaz"
:o))))))
"Sonny, I absolutely don't like the people who surround you lately" - was writing Paulus-mum to her son in Stalingrad :o))))))
1908 Kitchen cloth (soft) tsar, and Rasputin.
2008 And nothing has changed!
Obama's prize is simply a somewhat delayed response of the West to Leonid Iliich Brezhnev!
:o)))))
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How long will it be before the slumbering masses awaken to find that for centuries they have had a mono communistic regime governing them? The money the prols earn is sequested and given to whatever is deemed profitable for the governing body (government:Greek: mind control). The prols know nothing of this, they feed on lies and are told to uphold truth in all they do. They are sold at birth as slaves and indeed even their willingly accepted title of human signifies their enslavement, HU being a demon god of the sun sect who control all. Hu man meaning; property of the demon god HU..So whenever you are arguing about what money goes where and is given from who to who it is as well to ask a question. What is the bigger picture? There is no justice, no fairness, no reasoning to be had when you walk and talk in the dark. Time to switch your light on, suggest you start by switching off the tv......
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Re #186
And every other contribution you have made to these Blog Articles.
You cannot come on here and start making Marcus AureliusII seem logical, sensible, perspicacious and enlightening.
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WebAliceinwonderland: More a lazy system than a scientific system — I much prefer not having to get on my knees to check the water level of the tree’s reservoir every couple of days, and the convenience of refilling the jug once every few weeks (even though it’s about 20 kg at a time).
MarcusAureliusII’s explanation of LEDs is accurate, and well-suited to people with engineering backgrounds. If you remember the first generations of pocket calculators or digital watches, with red or green numbers lit up on dark backgrounds, those numbers were formed from LEDs. (See Svetodiod and Losev, Oleg Vladimirovich in Russian Wikipedia.)
Apartment purchases here are rarely done in cash (is it most often in euros or dollars there?), most often depending upon the buyer getting a mortgage, so the paperwork usually reflects the actual purchase price. Notaries serve a different purpose here (and perhaps in other common law jurisdictions), but the “civil law” notaries (for want of a better adjective) serve a useful purpose in real estate transactions, which I think would be a helpful addition to our system. We have “title insurance” available that offers responsibility in case of previously unknown owners appearing out of nowhere, but you’ve mentioned before the distrust of insurance companies there.
funiinnit: I can’t answer your first question, and everyone has his own answer to your second question. I can state that government is not Greek for “mind control”, as -ment is a Latin suffix (from -mentum [a suffix also found in English ornament, fragment, &c.] rather than from mentum [genitive form of mens, thus Latin for mind’s, but not a suffix form]). The govern- prefix comes to us via Latin gubernatio from the Greek word for “steering”, so it is control in the same sense as steering a ship would be controlling it. Any Greek word for “mind” is absent from government. A little study of Latin will also reveal the etymology of the word human — think of homo sapiens and ad hominem.
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funniinnit: The word government is thus the very source of the steering the ship of state metaphor. To be absolutely clear, any word for “mind” is absent from government. (There’s a straight line for someone to make some hay with…)
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JK;
"MarcusAureliusII’s explanation of LEDs is accurate, and well-suited to people with engineering backgrounds."
Perhaps in Europe but in the US it is geared to people with average knowledge, at about a high school level. At an engineering level, incandescent light would be explained as an example of thermionic emission of electromagnetic radiation, fluorescent light at the level electrons absorbing photons with their momentum and then re-emitting them which is the definition of fluorescing and LEDs would be explained by the change in quantum energy levels of electrons according to quantum mechanics theory. All would have detailed equations describing them. Perhaps that explains in part why on average Americans in general are more technologically savvy than Europeans. What is engineering level for Europeans is general knowledge for Americans. Unfortunately in the US, computers have had the unintended consequence of replacing thinking and knowledge with the artificial mechanics of software. They've become a crutch, not a tool. We may be regressing back to the level of Europe I fear.
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Mavrelius, how difficult is life for you.
Electricity is white ropes that go from the wall to the lamp.
If the rope is torn, you shouldn't hold simultaneously the place and lean on the central heating radiator. That's all about it.
Well, outside, electricity is metal ropes up there. When it's torn and falls to the ground, you don't come with dog nearby.
?
Really, at a loss what else.
Ah, there are also metal boxes attached on some strange small buildings between houses, with the skull drawn on it and bones below. Like a pirate flag. And it is written "Don't come will kill".
You don't let cat sniff in those, when walking the cat.
?
Finally, on a deep scientific level! inside white ropes in dacha can be yellow-reddish metal can be silvery white one. When a fixer comes to add a piece of re-connect, he asks which ones are yours. One should know ( I forget), so that he adds a likewise piece of rope - with yellow stuff or with silvery stuff inside.
Wel, Mavrelius, if you are seriously into science I'll tell you what. An electric kettle eats up 2 of something!
Hope you know all now.
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WA;
"And I thought that "LED" is what they write on those sticky papers attached to suitcases you check in in the airports. It's int'l abbreviation for St. Petersburg in aviation - still LED. Like LHR , etc. Leningrad."
The three letters the porter or ticket attendant writes on your luggage tag at the airport is a three ltter code which signifies the destination your luggage will be sent to. With any luck it will be the same place you are flying to. You'll know when you get there...if it ever arrives. For example, JFK stands for John F Kennedy airport in New York City, LAX stands for Los Angeles airport in California. Every airport has a designation. You can look them all up on the internet somewhere probably by googling airport codes. The black lines with the numbers on a white sticker is called a bar code. If it is in a retail store, it is often called a universal price code or UPC. A scanner reads it and feeds it to a computer. If it's your luggage, it will allow tracking it wherever it goes. If it's a UPC in a store, it will allow you to check out of the store without the cashier having to manually and sometimes incorrectly tally up the price on a cash register. We had expected it to be replaced with a more advanced system some years ago, an embedded semiconductor chip that was supposed to cost 0.1 cents each. That would make checkout even faster. You'd simply scan your credit card and walk out the door with your filled shopping cart, the computer would automatically debit your credit card account. In theory, this will allow someone to drive past your home and scan every object you own. They will know everything about you from what cereal you eat and how many boxes of it you have to what type of shoes you wear. George Orwell would be jealous.
That white "rope" the wire that connects your lamp to the wall outlet is the tiniest tip of a vast iceberg, the electrical power generating and distribution network that contains hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of different elements and connections that make the modern world possible. When we talk about energy and global warming, we are largely talking about this network. That energy comes largely from steam made in "kettles" boiling water (except for motor vehicles.) Those boilers are heated by burning coal, oil, natural gas, and bringing enriched uranium together. Without it, even the most lavish mansion or castle is nothing more than a glorified cave and the most modern city or factory is paralyzed, even unsafe and unfit to inhabit until power is restored. That in part is how I earn my living, building, modifying, analyzing, improving parts of the network in my country. It is a wonderful and fascinating challenge. Mistakes are unforgiven by nature and unforgivable by people. The old saying; "what you don't know can't hurt you" doesn't apply here. It's more like; "what you don't know can kill you." I see it's time to put the kettle on for a cup of tea (actually I heat my water in a microwave oven :-)))))
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Mavrelius, all the rest here, further than "the white rope" is Mr Chubais.
Oh, no! Chubais is now transferred from energy onto nano-technology!
Then I'm really worried, I do not know, what's behind the socket.
Before, in the wall, there sat Chubais and "made electricity" :o))))
And his electricity Russia's grid and empire :o)))
MA don't heat up water in the microwave oven. Hell knows them microwaves, can be bad for health. We were fond of them at a time then left behind.
What if you will grow a tail or I don't know what, who will I quarrel with. Don't heat up water in the micro-wave.
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Oh now you tell me. Too late. So that's how I got the tail...and the horns. Hell has gone high tech. But who sent me the pitchfork WebAlice, was it you? Was that your Christmas present to me? Where did you get it, it smells distinctly of sulfur.
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Bank rolling the third world due to accumulated liberal guilt is hardly
a recipe for success of the developing countries. Loans to build infra-
structure and advance education are the means which can transform a country and even a region. Look at South Afica, Chile, or India. Working
their way to a modern society, no hand outs, self-beneficial progress that can be sustainable if the political will exists. The US government
is currently run by apologists who really don't give a hoot about the rest of the world as long as they stay in power and look good to there
supporters. AGW and climate change is the excuse to pay out and absolve
there guilt. Instead, we should be funding technology and innovation to
increase efficieny for super conductors and new power sources that would
benefit all countries.
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Well, I just saw the BBC America piece on Australia's plight with the errosian of and loss of seafront properties. From the pime ministers comments it seems he wants the developed contries to treat Australia as a third world country. Loss of seafront property is to be expected when one builds too close to the sea. I have lived on the seafront and I sure did not blame others for my loss. It is to be expected. I never thought of the Australians as crybabys but I may have been wrong. Many seafront properties have been lost in North America, both inexpensive and very expensive. Get used to it.
Dallas Trebor
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We didn't see a modern ice age in the 70's when we were all warned about global cooling and we certainly won't be treading water as a result of so called global warming. It’s not going to happen. Sure the ice shelf along Greenland’s coast is falling into the sea, but the thickness of the ice far inland has tripled. How many of you have read those reports? Think of it like pouring too much waffle batter onto a hotplate, it has to go somewhere. It runs off the sides…into the ocean. However, since there is such a strong effort to squelch and suppress all rational arguments against man made climate change, few of you have been able to view the evidence against it. I am in agreement that we must renew our efforts as stewards of the planet or we might just find an eviction notice in our mailbox..."People of Earth, you have 364 days to pack your belongings and leave the premises. The owner has another party interested in the property." How’s that for imminent domain?
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