A time for safety nets
I am returning to Europe from a few days away. At the weekend I was travelling on the New York subway and in the underground world where all eyes avoid each other a man with a very loud booming voice began talking about the hungry. He was collecting money and pointed out that in this holiday season thousands would be dependent on charity. Like with most metros, subways and undergrounds he got few takers.
On Fifth Avenue volunteers from the Salvation Army stand outside most of the big stores. I spoke briefly to one woman who said the food banks had never been in such demand and in danger of running out.
A few more conversations filled in the picture. One in eight Americans and one in four US children are fed with the help of food stamps. The US Department of Agriculture reckons that one in six Americans either went hungry or had insufficient food in 2008. There are nearly 700,000 homeless people. It can remain true that if you lose your job you lose your home.
Now I mention this because you will not find such dramatic figures anywhere in Europe. The safety nets are part of the social contract and most Europeans would not want the harsher world of the United States. So, when you travel around Europe, you can escape noticing we are in recession. The pain is less than in the United States. Many Europeans take satisfaction in this.
But as the world emerges from the recession another argument will start. Is it the European or American model that will create new jobs quicker, that will produce the greater number of start-up companies, that will more enthusiastically embrace the new technologies, that will be better prepared to compete in the global market?
The answers cannot be known yet, but in the months ahead I will be looking at how Europe, with its safety nets, bounces back.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~50~RS~)
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I predict the US will grow quicker than the EU, maybe not by much. Lower peaks are a price most Europeans are willing to pay to have smoother dips.
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Oh no, where is Marvelous-ApriliousII to tell me how one in six Americans going hungy is part of their god given right to be Americans and they should be thankful for it. They are doing their part in the "war against obesity" just as others do their part in the "war against terror".
I think if the only downside the Europeans will have to suffer is lower growth in return for not going hungry or loosing your house if you loose your job, is a price very well worth it! What's the point of having more start ups just to see them dive again at the next ressesion? Living standards are worth far more than statistics numbers in front of a bankers computer screen.
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I don't think there is any fundamental difference between Americans and Europeans regarding meritocracy (i.e. a system that rewards effort) versus more egalitarian redistributive systems that work to the benefit of those at the bottom of society. See for example Professor Michael Sandel of Harvard University (who delivered this year's BBC Reith lectures in the UK) on the topic of meritocracy versus egalitarianism, etc. and you will see that Americans are not the cold-hearted caricatures they are so often painted as in Europe.
http://justiceharvard.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=16
The real difference between the USA and European nations on this issue is solidarity within our respective societies. Solidarity is essential if voters are to accept the state taking large chunks of their income in taxation to redistribute to others who are total strangers to them, but with whom they never-the-less feel some kind of shared bond such that they will vote for their money being spent to help them out in times of need. Solidarity is at a maximum in small states and also in mature nation-states where tax payers and beneficiary share the strong bond of national identity. That is why we only see large-scale redistribution WITHIN nation-states and never between nation-states (even though there are many people in the third world far more in need of assistance than even the most hard-up in our own Western societies).
Hayek argued that the European nation-state is of the perfect size and social cohesiveness to maximise voter toleration to redistributive government spending programs. The sheer size and diversity of the USA, by this argument, actually mitigates against government redistribution because a voter in California is less tolerant of helping someone out who lives 3000 miles away in Massachusetts than a voter in London might be to help someone out who lives 300 miles away in Newcastle. So the great size and diversity of the USA, with its resultant relatively low-level of social solidarity, is the real reason why the US federal government spends less on social security, education, healthcare, etc. than any European state.
This argument also explains why the EU institutions have almost no role to play in the big-ticket re-distributive spending programs that consume 40-50% of GDP in a typical European country. Should Brussels ever try to take over these redistributive spending programs from the nation-state there would immediately be a voter backlash with taxpayers complaining about their own national health, etc. services were denied their tax revenue so that Brussels can shift the resources towards people in other nations with whom they do not feel any strong bond similar to that afforded by a shared national identity. Indeed, by this argument, any ‘federal’ European safety-nets would end up being less acceptable to voters in European countries than US federal programs are to American voters, such that European levels of spending would drop below those in the USA. The entire nature of modern government as we understand it today in Europe, with high-levels of government support, is actually totally dependent on the solidarities of the nation-state.
So the real difference between USA and European 'safety nets' is not any fundamental difference of opinion within electorates about meritocratic versus more egalitarian approaches, but rather that the smaller size and greater cohesiveness of the European nation-state makes its voters more tolerant of funding a safety-net that will catch fellow citizens with whom they identify more strongly than is the case in the USA.
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I agree, FreebornJohn. Problem in the US is that too many politicians in both houses believe that there is no half-way point between outright freedom from governmental provision/taxation and near-communism.
I suppose that, in a country as vast as the USA, an individual state is as big as some EU nations, the european model is too large to "gel" into a workable politic?
NB Gavin, there are soup-kitchens in France; and deaths from the severe weather. It's not all so different from the US; it's only the numbers that make it seem so. Don't know about the UK or other EU countries.
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It doesn't matter one whistle-in-the-wind WHAT the great financial "experts" and Wall Street moguls say, or even what our government (read "president") says: For the general public, both workers and low-to-medium high executives, the US is still in economic freefall with no bottom in sight yet. This isn't "Recession", Gentle People, we're flatly heading into a DEpression that'll make the one of the 1930's look like a picnic. There's no way around it at this point, as it's already past the point of no return. All we can do is brace for it and try to help each other--without relying on a very UNreliable government. (They call me "Talkinmule".)
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The American system does not work. Full stop.
It may or may not be reformed from within. Jury still out.
The European system is flexible and rational. There are also problems, but it has passed the most difficult of tests, in these past few years. There is always room for improvement.
But "Homo homini lupus" is no way to run a Civilised society.
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For crying out load!
This blog is supposed to be about Europe. Yet, time and time again, it seems like the reporter is really much more interested in covering America.
Gavin, please - if you can't be bothered to actually come up with decent posts about European matters, focusing on Europe, without dedicting most (or all!) of your post to the USA, President Obama, and whatnot - step aside and let someone who geniounly care about Europe do so.
Mark Mardell is the American correspondent. Not you.
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Oh great, more to be ashamed and embarrissed of!
Gavin, you say that "you will not find such dramatic figures anywhere in Europe. The safety nets are part of the social contract and most Europeans would not want the harsher world of the United States."
Would you, or anyone else care to elaborate, if you please, on just what specificly these "safety nets" contain to insure that one sixth of Europeans don't go hungry in recessions? Screw whether the US will emerge from the recession faster and better!! If we refuse to care for our fellow man, we don't have anything good to show the world.
I get the impression, from this post and other conversations I've had, that Europeans don't even know what a "food bank" is. How do you do it?
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The biggest difference between Europe and the United States is that in the US, when trouble arises, they are all Americans, whereas in Europe when the same situation arises they are all foreign countries afraid of each other and vying with each other to secure their own desires. Inbred mistrust of each of Europes countries by it's neighbours is a fact that no amount of Brusselling ( "good word ?" )can alter.
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Do you expect the Republicans to reverse their social Darwinism? In America the poor are poor because they deserve to be so...that is the line. Bankers being bailed out and using tax dollars for bonuses is considered "American." America does't want any of that European "socialism", even if a lot of people have to go hungry. The particular form of American corrupt Captialism, requires government to tax the working class to provide for the rich,something held over from the colonial days. When James Madison met with Alexander Hamliton in New York, he returned to Virginia with great fears about what would happen if the New York bankers gained control.
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Freeborn John #3: '"Hayek argued that the European nation-state is of the perfect size and social cohesiveness to maximise voter toleration to redistributive government spending programs. The sheer size and diversity of the USA, by this argument, actually mitigates against government redistribution because a voter in California is less tolerant of helping someone out who lives 3000 miles away in Massachusetts than a voter in London might be to help someone out who lives 300 miles away in Newcastle."
Point well made. However in America that is what individual states are for. So that voter in California - who lives in Napa- would theoreticly presumably not be too keen on helping someone out who lives in L.A. as aposed to Boston.
Either way, poles have consistently shown that more Americans believe that if someone isn't doing well, that it is their own fault and that the government should have little to do with improving their situation in life; the old "ruggid individualism" characteristic, often unfortunately painting us, as you correctly pointed out, as cold, callus, heartless people. Whereas more Europeans believe that government should be largely responsible for the improvement of its less well off population; seen by the world as kind and selfless.
Me? I'd choose the European way of thinking any day!
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10. ghostofsichuan
"...Do you expect the Republicans to reverse their social Darwinism?.."
I thought the Democrats controlled the Presidency and both Houses of Congress?
What's more, unlike in the EU, the people got the chance to vote for change.
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I am not sure that the safety nets cannot be compatible with an economy which encourages initiative and the development of new jobs. It just so happens that demagogy from populist parties have led to this type of economy in Europe.
There is an unemployment insurance in the states, paid for jointly by all employers and employees. Benefits are however very small comparing to the unemployment benefits enjoyed by most Europeans. I don't think making them smaller in Europe would lead to the creation of jobs.
The problem is elsewhere.
Socialist parties have often considered that jobs were a finite quantity and have wanted to spread them thinner by discouraging people from working longer years (past retirement years) or longer hours (more than the weekly standard). When you reach retirement age in the US, you may get retirement benefits (i.e. Social Security) on the one hand, while you keep working and contribute to Social Security on the other hand. Not so in France where you are simply not allowed to work once you have retired, or if you do you lose your benefits. People who work generate jobs by spending their income, not the other way around.
Other benefits have become absurdly out of date. For example in France, parents get a fixed amount of money every month for the children they have. It is so that a large family of 8 children or more can live on this income alone, in some kind of moderate pauperism. Parents who have so many children are uneducated and don't transmit a work ethics culture to their offspring. No party can touch that without commiting suicide.
Another problem is that Europeans are still expecting to stay all their life with the company which first hired them. A lay off is lived as a major disaster, not just an incident in a career. If an American has a glitch in his résumé for the time he or she spent trying to start his or her own company, and it did not work, this is seen as a sign of initiative and daring by a potential employer. If the same thing happens to a European he or she is considered a failure, an unstable person who cannot be counted on.
The present economic downturn has been created by the mindless application of Freedman's theory with unfettered capitalism, by greedy and stupid investments by incompetent bankers, and by the absolute lack of patriotism by so called leaders on both sides of the Atlantic. None of this is being tackled anywhere right now, so I think the crisis is something we will just get used to, remembering with nostalgia the times when it was not so.
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@11
you are right, whoever that profesor was and FreebornJohn need to think again. It has more to do with the desire to have state that cares for you and nothing what so ever with the desire one has to care for someone else. It is simple you choose to have a structure in place that will support you when you need it, you don't choose to have a structure in place so that it will support someone else, even if that someone in you next door neighbour, it is as simple as that. People don't vote for socially caring government so that their neighbour down the street will be looked after they vote for such a government because they believe there is benefit in there somewhere for them if they need it. They consider living in a humane society with high standards of living as been of benefit to them. Also business in Europe including the EU appear to have come to realising that keeping your existing workforce is better than dismissing people only to turn around some months later and hire them again.
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SAFETY NET VS [MIC]
What Europe has failed and does fail to understand is there simply is NO MONEY to spend for a safety net. The funding that Europe spends to provide for a Safety Net, is poured into the [MIC} Military Industrial Complex.The American-Israeli Empire is rapidly going broke;
1. The Infrastructure of the Empire its roads and bridges are collapsing not figuritively but actually literally falling down, the roads are in dis-repair.
2. The Empire made no effort to create a nation wide power grid, [NO NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS] in my back yard. The Northeast has had major power outages repeatedly, [New York City] has had them time and again.
3. It cost money to run the [Trident Submarine Fleet] the largest in the world, operating at patrol levels beyond any that have ever been scheduled in past history.
4. The Empire is operating [700] Seven-Hundred Military bases, in [300] Three hundred countries around the globe, no other country has that many bases or number of troops on foreign soil.
5. There has been and continues to be a loss of heavy, medium and light industrial industry flowing to Europe and China. [GM] General Motors closed it plant in the state of Ohio, opening a new plant in Red China.
6. The Amreican-Israeli Empire is at present relocating its entire Foothold Troops in the East, Japan out of Japan by Japanese mandate, Japan no longer wants Empire Troops on its Territory period, that was what the Japanese [PM} Prime Minister was elected to do.
7. The [SURGE] in the Afghanistan Theater of the War of Economic Stimulus for Markets and Resources, on the Islamic Crescent minimum cost is [$30B/£17B] Thirty-Billion Dollars/Seventeen-Billion Pounds Sterling, of unfunded government mandate, its not in the Federal Budget.
8. At least [27] Twenty-Seven States of the [50] Fifty-States are broke, bankrupt.
9. The Empire unemployment is not [10.2%] Ten-Point-Two percent it is more like [21%} Twenty-One percent, with those who have fallen off the unemployment rolls not counted, plus those living in Hovervilles [Entire Families] not being counted, then the sub-employed state government workers on [4] Four day work weeks, self-employed contractors who can't find work, and that is not even beginning to cover the Illegal Immigrants out of work.
10. It takes money to support the imprisonment of the largest number of human being in world history that the Empire has not only in its own prisons [2M+] Two-Million Plus, but those in Black-Op Prisons around the globe.
11. It takes money to prepare the battlefield in South America, [800] Eight hundred Delta Force, Special Forces, Rangers, Elite Troops and [600] Six Hundred Blackwater Merks in Colombia.
12. By [2020] the Empire WILL HAVE A THIRD WORLD DEMOGRAPHIC, a demographic that has never achieved [G-20] let along [G-8] status, and that will not be reversed.
13. The World is moving to a DIVERSIFIED/MULTILATERAL CURRENCY REGIME, currency based system.
14. The [NATO] North Atlantic Treaty Organization is on its last breath, and soon Europe much as Japan will demand that Empire Troops leave, as the [60K] sixty-thousand beer hall drinking Empire troops in Germany are not in Germany for any other purpose but to continue a post [WWII] force of Occupation.
The point is the Empire is at WAR, a war of survival, everyone just shuts their eyes to the reality, the Empire has NO ENERGY supplies [Natural Gas, Petroleum, Nuclear, Thermo, or Solar] to meet its needs, no light, medium or heavy industry to cover its employment needs, its Infrastructure lays in rubble.
The difference between Europe and the Empire is what has been done since [WWII} World War Two one created a [21st] Century System of Governments [Europe}, while the Empire created the [MIC} Military Industrial Complex, making the [20th] Century one of one War of Economic Stimulus after another, which it is carrying into yet another Century.
NO THE PROBLEM IS THE EMPIRE IS ON A WAR FOOTING AND THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY IS ON THE MARCH OF CHANGE IN THE [21ST] AND TOOK THE FIRST STEPS OF THE SIX THOUSAND MILE MARCH YEARS AGO.
THERE ARE NO NETS TO BE HAD!
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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Does it matter? Having millions of people go hungry is not a price worth paying for a percentage point or two on top of the salaries of the middle classes. And in any case, the Economist/Newsweek religion that "safety nets" automatically lead to lower economic growth is well, hmm... there is no evidence for it. According to economists, everything can be explained in one of four ways: economic growth because of market reforms, lack of economic growth despite market reforms, lack of economic growth because of lack of market reforms, and last but not least, economic growth despite lack of market reforms. It's not exactly rocket science.
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IN DEFENSE OF GAVIN HEWITT
[#7} At 7:32pm on 16 Dec 2009, AHERSHKO wrote:
For crying out load!
This blog is supposed to be about Europe. Yet, time and time again, it seems like the reporter is really much more interested in covering America.
Gavin, please - if you can't be bothered to actually come up with decent posts about European matters, focusing on Europe, without dedicting most (or all!) of your post to the USA, President Obama, and whatnot - step aside and let someone who geniounly care about Europe do so.
Mark Mardell is the American correspondent. Not you.
******************************************************
TRIATHLON REPLYS:
We can understand your fustration about even the European Blog having to deal with the problems cause by the American-Israeli Empire, but it has gotten to the point were more than one correspondent and blog enter into the discussion from a prospective of what is the effect of the melt down of the Empire upon Europe.
The Empire has been directly responsible for;
1. The Riots in France over Muslims, and their housing problems in Paris, if there weren't a War of Economic Stimulus, Resources and Markets being waged on the Islamic Crescent, Muslims wouldn't be getting out of the killing fields of the [MIC] Empire Military Industrial Complex, and Merks [Blackwater]
2. Votes in countries about how building should look, pointed at the top or not.
3. The Riots at the first the London, with the [G-8] then into France over [NATO] the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
4. Now Riots about Global Warming when a Nuclear Winter is more likely.
5. The Europeans having a [50K] Fifty-Thousand, Field Army in Afghanistan, with the Empire pressing for it to not [STAND DOWN] and take defensive action only, tasked with the training of [400K] Four-hundred thousand para-military police and military for [18] eighteen months, that is MAY DAY, May [1st] of [2011] but to enter into counter-insurency offensive military actions. An to up its monitary support of the Empires War, slowing down any real chance of a recovery in Europe.
6. Were talking about Europe and the Gas and Oil flow thru [The Russian Federations Nordstream and Southstream Vs The Empire backed Nubucco] pipeline, European money wasted on Nubucco which has little to no real chance, of ever operating to full capacity.
But with all due respect to your position both GAVIN HEWITT and MARK MARDELL could and will have their hands full, this is a story about WAR, The war of Economic Stimulus of Markets and Resources being waged by the American-Israeli Empire to remain even viable in the [21st] Century a war they are losing, how many troops will the [EU] European Union commit to a lost war, how much of its treasure will it commit, what are they to act as offensive combat troops, or defensive training cadre, what is the [EU] willing to defer to pay for this, the infrastructure, new schools, new hospitals, what effect does the Empire have on Europe, only as much as Europe is going to self commit to.
The question now is what is European going to commit to, for how long, at what cost, and what will be gained by Europes efforts?
HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN
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Usually when the USA is in recession, its the European model that is good. But, when its the Europeans with reeession, their saftey net economies/societies are said to be "sick" with no-growth and high unemployment.
This recession all bets are off because all these countries had deep recessions. So, while they both recover--it will depend on who is talking. And for the rest to say what a load of bull on both sides.
China is doing well, so my question is--Will they do a Japan? Where the economy levels off when their salaries are similar to us or will it be
when their per capita reaches ours?
If its their per capita GDP, uh ohhh, all bets are off--as to government type--authoritarian vs. democracy.
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OOOOEEEEE Hercule,
You are sooo longwinded about the enpire, you need a street corner and a soapbox.
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OOOPs I mean will China level at GDP same as the rest of "rich" world, or will it be when salaries are the same?
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@David
If the free market fanatics have their way idealy the richer/better paid people in the west will sink to China's wages and then China will cut their wages even more and go down that path. The free markets concept is not a race to the top, its a race to the bottom. Hopefully we all woke up a bit now and we'll start pushing back some of those idea and even rebuke politicians and markets that are only interested in themselves. I haven't seen many politicians or CEO saying a politician's salary or a CEO salary in Chine is 1/10 of what we get here we may as well outsource ourselves to the Chinense because it is better for the company or country. Orwells animal farm had it right, "we are all equal, but some are more equal than others", no we could say "we all believe in free markets, but only for some of us" The bankers cry currently here in the UK is don't tax us because we will leave and go to work abroad, the government is treating them with care, I'd say go ahead start walking now. It doesn't occur to them that a Chinese will work for less, and so what we will loose their great skill of loosing money by the bucket load? What are we afraid of that someone other than them will not loose as much money for us?
So back to the model here in Europe, I think people realise that having a social safety net to catch you when you fall is a fair way and the governments tax the people enough to support that social safety net. So what if a company does not report mega-profits to the stock market? the only ones that will not receive a mega-bonus are 10 - 15 people at the top and those people already earn more than enough so where is the harm?
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It's extremely hard to take BBC blogs seriously when you read the types it attracts and when it's European blog is all about the USA and how Europe is better in every way shape or form.
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Freeborn John wrote: "So the real difference between USA and European 'safety nets' is not any fundamental difference of opinion within electorates about meritocratic versus more egalitarian approaches, but rather that the smaller size and greater cohesiveness of the European nation-state makes its voters more tolerant of funding a safety-net that will catch fellow citizens with whom they identify more strongly than is the case in the USA."
Or, it could simply be a case of responsible, resourceful, and self-sufficient Americans not wanting other Americans to become anything less.
Americans don't like bums and anything that smacks of a person bumming off others when they are perfectly capable of supporting themselves. That said, Americans have no problem helping those that truly deserve to be helped.
You also do not know America very well if you think that thousands of miles makes Americans less capable of identifying with other Americans. If anything, from living and traveling throughout Europe for a number of years and living and traveling in America I would say Americans are in some ways much more capable of identifying with each other in ways that fundamentally define their culture. Their strong patriotism, for example, is hard to match in any other country.
The question of which system, America's or those of European countries, will produce more "start-ups" and which will "embrace the new technologies" more has been answered time and time again, decade after decade. The fact that much of the motivation to create a European superstate is simply to be able to compete against America is your answer.
America's "safety nets" need to be there to help only those that need helping. A culture that encourages and rewards achievement and success at the individual level must be maintained for America to continue being the unique and successful country that it is in a world of ever increasing and destructive left wing social engineering that seeks to try make everyone equal to each other.
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HERCULE_SAVINIEN wrote:
"The Empire has been directly responsible for"
Hugo, is that you?
Give my best to your buddy Castro. I'm sure neither of you have to worry about "safety nets" that remotely resemble anything your citizens have.
And why is it that so many Europeans are so obsessed and insecure over what America does that every discussion involving Europe leads back to America? Can't you put yourselves in a bright light without casting a shadow over America? Get over your collective inferiority complexes already and move on. It's embarrassing, and I'm not even European.
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ghostofsichuan wrote:
"Do you expect the Republicans to reverse their social Darwinism? In America the poor are poor because they deserve to be so...that is the line."
Not a case of deserving what they get, unless you think of them as people that enjoy watching others suffer. That would be one heck of a stretch of what a republican stands for.
The fact of the matter is unless you are physically or mentally restricted in any way or a senior citizen, which in those cases, as an American, I would have no problem extending government support to such people, in most cases people are poor in America because of the foolish choices they have made for themselves, whether that means continuing to have children when they can not be afforded or making other very irresponsible financial decisions. People shouldn't be rewarded for that.
"Bankers being bailed out and using tax dollars for bonuses is considered 'American.'"
Uh, no, it is not.
"America does't want any of that European "socialism", even if a lot of people have to go hungry."
No, Americans don't want to nurture or encourage a culture of bumming.
"The particular form of American corrupt Captialism, requires government to tax the working class to provide for the rich,something held over from the colonial days."
That's a bunch of nonsense. America would not have achieved as much as it has in its relatively short history if it resembled anything that is described by those of you that simply hate and resent America's success.
"When James Madison met with Alexander Hamliton in New York, he returned to Virginia with great fears about what would happen if the New York bankers gained control. "
If I were you I would be much more concerned about your so-called European politicians in Brussels. I think he would have offered the same advice.
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@AllenT2
I don't think you will find many Europeans with inferiority complexes towards the USA :) I can't even think on what grounds we should have one?
The issue here was not about supporting people that don't want to work "bums" as you so elegantly described them, the issue is supporting people that are unemployed and as a result of that loose their houses and live on soup kitchens handouts and the one sixth that went hungy.
I guess from your posts that either you are very proud of that or that you are so blind in your own superiority complex that your can't see the issue or you don't want to see the issue.
Personally I can't see the point of having lots of start ups if they don't add anything to quality of life, I rather have less start ups and better quality of life
Have a successful day chasing the American Dream (whatever that may be) and shoot down all those commies that stand in your way!
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Whenever anybody talks about America's Great Success I'm reminded of those pictures of 'free touring clinics' where people unable to afford proper healthcare queue up to be treated, often out in the open, with no privacy. It's very reminiscent of a scene from M*A*S*H. You almost expect 'Radar' O'Reilly to come running in shouting "more incoming wounded."
Great Success? Maybe for some.
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ChrisArta wrote:
"I don't think you will find many Europeans with inferiority complexes towards the USA :) I can't even think on what grounds we should have one?"
Obviously many do if they are so obsessed with constantly making comparisons to America, often in derogatory ways. European media and forums every day overflow with endless examples.
"The issue here was not about supporting people that don't want to work "bums" as you so elegantly described them, the issue is supporting people that are unemployed and as a result of that loose their houses and live on soup kitchens handouts and the one sixth that went hungy."
People that can work and do not want to when there is work and expect others to support them are rightly called bums. That is the definition of the word. Those who lose their jobs receive unemployment insurance for a fair period of time. Proper financial discipline would also have individuals planning for such possibilities.
"I guess from your posts that either you are very proud of that or that you are so blind in your own superiority complex that your can't see the issue or you don't want to see the issue."
I "see the issue" everyday here in America and I don't buy the statistics. For a country that supposedly has so many going to bed hungry I never see excessively thin or emaciated individuals. Don't many of you Europeans like to make fun of the fact that so many Americans are fat? So which is it?
"Personally I can't see the point of having lots of start ups if they don't add anything to quality of life, I rather have less start ups and better quality of life"
Who says they do not and will not? Many of the "quality of life" items in your life came from American start ups. I would bet more than from any other country.
I don't know if you are American or not but America has its way and European countries have their own way. Learn to respect that.
"Have a successful day chasing the American Dream (whatever that may be) and shoot down all those commies that stand in your way!"
I don't have to chase the American dream as I live it every day. If you are not American then I really don't expect you to understand that.
Communism? A political system that has brought nothing but misery, oppression, terror and death for millions.
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Wonthillian wrote:
"Whenever anybody talks about America's Great Success I'm reminded of those pictures of 'free touring clinics' where people unable to afford proper healthcare queue up to be treated, often out in the open, with no privacy. It's very reminiscent of a scene from M*A*S*H. You almost expect 'Radar' O'Reilly to come running in shouting "more incoming wounded."
Great Success? Maybe for some."
Only if you consider government run health care the only measure of success and contribution that a country can provide to its people and the world.
I know for many Europeans and/or socialists/communists everything revolves around getting as many handouts that you can get from the government but not everyone in the world or in other countries think as you do or want to live as you do. Why is that so difficult for so many non-Americans, especially Europeans, to respect and accept?
Life expectancy in America is also little different to other modern and civilized countries so obviously the picture you would like to paint of America is not the way it actually is.
Then again, what do I know, I'm just an American. Surely a European would know more about life in my own country, including those that have never even set foot in it. All they have to do is read and watch their biased and often anti-American media, maybe go on a holiday to Disney World, and by golly they are set.
If I only had a dollar for every European that claimed to know more about my own country and my American way of life and how I should live it. My response, at best, is usually along the lines of mind your own business!
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#28
So AllenT2 you are telling us that people that go hungry should consider themselves lucky and that there is plenty of work out there for everyone. So the USA has a plague of about 25M bums too lazy to work and expecting state handouts
WOW, for sure you live in a dream on a daily basis, just don't bother waking up from it, because reality is not like your dreams. Keep dreaming:) Keep been happy that one in four kids needs food stamps not to go hungry and keep worrying about the missery the commies caused but don't worry about the missery the capitalist cause to one million homeless, keep drreaming my friend and don't wake up the world is a scary place.
I'm saying the USA is a bad place (althought I'd never want to be there) its a great plave as long as you are not one the homeless, the hungry or the one that relies on soup kitchens for food.
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@30 it should read "I'm not saying" not "I'm saying" - sorry
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AlienT2 (23): I am not sure that patriotism is the same thing as the solidarity i was talking about. The latter is what makes redistributive government spending programs politically acceptable in a democracy. It seems possible to be both proud of your country, and at the same time not to be able to put yourself in the shoes of a fellow citizen in difficulties, such that one can turn a blind eye to his plight. Or conversely to become a subsidy-junky and not to be able to put yourself in the shoes of those who pay the taxes to keep you going. So solidarity and patriotism are different things.
There are large numbers of people (the majority) in every election who vote with their own wallet on the issue of state-spending, and as frenchderek (4) pointed out this can lead to a polarised debate between 'taxation is theft' at one extreme and those who want the state to level incomes at the other. But in practice all Western governments intervene to some degree between these extremes to help the least well off. The US government even does this in ways we do not see in the UK or Europe, for example through 'positive discrimination' or 'Head Start' programs. This does not mean we are more cold-hearted than Americans, but simply reflects that there are unique historical factors in the USA (slavery, large scale migration) that cast a long-shadow and would result in a very unfair playing field there if not corrected for by government intervention. The UK and Europe have had different historical factors (e.g. class) to correct for which still seem to frame the debate between the established parties long after the original problem has faded.
PursuitOfLove (11): Your point about the "rugged individualism" of the American character is an interesting one that has a certain ring of truth to it. I think this is a characteristic of settler communities, which does continue to shape the attitudes of future generations, and may still shape attitudes to government welfare in the USA. But i wonder for how long? The descendents of the hardy folk who literally walked across America on the Oregon and California trails have become accustomed to drive-in McDonalds and movie theatres. It would also be a mistake to think that "rugged individualism" is completely absent in the UK or Europe, or that there are not large numbers of people here who regard those who stay on welfare as undeserving. There is inevitably a balance between short-term help for those who are down on their luck due to factors beyond their control, and creating a dependency culture that saps resources and impoverishes society in the long-term. The trick is to find that balance. Until the recent recession i think it fair to say the Continental politicians (like Sarkozy) accepted the Anglo-Saxon countries had found the better balance, but they were unwilling to confront the vested interests in their societies at that time. The recession has postphoned that further but it could come back on the agenda if a growth-gap re-emerges between the Eurozone and English-speaking economies.
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ChrisArta wrote:
"So AllenT2 you are telling us that people that go hungry should consider themselves lucky and that there is plenty of work out there for everyone. So the USA has a plague of about 25M bums too lazy to work and expecting state handouts"
I think you just wish to interpret my words whichever way supports your prejudices and biases.
"WOW, for sure you live in a dream on a daily basis, just don't bother waking up from it, because reality is not like your dreams."
I know what reality is like in my own country.
"Keep dreaming:) Keep been happy that one in four kids needs food stamps not to go hungry and keep worrying about the missery the commies caused but don't worry about the missery the capitalist cause to one million homeless, keep drreaming my friend and don't wake up the world is a scary place."
The world may be a "scary place" for you but it certainly isn't for most Americans.
You are darn right I will keep dreaming, and I will keep making those dreams come true. I live a blessed life through hard work, determination and discipline in a country with more opportunities and chances for success than any other.
I'll also keep a look out for all the emaciated and starving children you think we have.
"I'm saying the USA is a bad place (althought I'd never want to be there)"
And with all do respect, I would never want immigrants with your kind of negative and grim outlook to become Americans.
"its a great plave as long as you are not one the homeless, the hungry or the one that relies on soup kitchens for food."
Right, because you know what it is like to live in America more than an American would?
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@33
I do not interpret your words and I have no prejudices. I like America and I enjoy Americans however when I see reports like this I have to say that having one in six people hungry is not a fair system and it can be improved and I'm sorry if it hurts your patriotism but it is there accept it and try to fix it. Don't try to pretend it doesn't exist and everything in sweet.
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#29 AllenT2
Public healthcare, at least in most European countries, is not about 'getting as many handouts that you can get from the government' but about recognising that, in a decent society, everybody deserves an acceptable level of healthcare. You may call it socialist, even communist. You can use whatever label you like. But if a country that considers itself the most prosperous in the world can only offer third-world healthcare to people who lose their jobs and insurance (not necessarily through any fault of their own) then surely there is something wrong. But perhaps you are right and I should mind my own business.
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In the US the problem of obesity is greatest among our poor people. How can one be starving and overweight at the same time?
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Actually, Chris Arta,
You are wrong. The Chinese experiment is a challenge to us. How are we going to respond to an authortarian regime that makes its people better off-much better off. Of course, it is known that the majority of people there are below the poverty line.
But, also, there is a group of people of the size of Europe and/or America that is as "well off" as our people are. Whether that is a good thing for them ..and you, remains to be seen (esp by people who are catagorically against "capitalism."
I say capitalism with quotes because there are soooo many people who believe it is the socialist system (hybrid with capitalism) that works and they may be right ...
As long, as their socialism is based capitalistic market ideas (i.e. capitalism is there to tax for the bottom third of the population)
I agree with this kind of thing, but to write off America because you would RATHER LIVE UNDER YOUR KIND OF SYSTEM IS...so pathetically naive, if sweetly innocent.
Get a grip, I'm not Marcus but to believe that socialism is eventually going to arrive
when China is going your and the US way (don't know which is more relevant to them, actually) and to just think oh someday it will all blow up, because it is capitalism
IS not the brightest thing in the world.
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36. MaudDib:
Poor people are not "starving and overweight at the same time" in the US. They are malnourished. That is they eat a lot of junk food, full of salt and sugar, lacking in the vitamins and minerals which are essential for good health. You can frequently see a family with a big overweight mother and small very skinny children. The young children don't get enough real food to sustain their activities. As adolescents and adults slow down because of their lack of energy, the excess sugar turns to fat.
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Sorry, Chris,
Just read the whole of your comment and it wasn't capitalisdm is going to die.
But, that is the idea of alot of people. It's as if they want to see death, destruction of the rich, and then the downfall of civilization just for funzies (being alienated to the extreme).
But, you were just saying the EU model is better. Well, hmmm, we'll borrow from you a little, but probably do it our way and that still won't be good enough, I'm sure.
:)
David
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Freeborn-John
Re #3
Another really excellent comment: Some of the detail was remarkably perceptive.
Have you read the "Empire" comments by HerculeS?
The contrast between your cogent, logical and constructive contributions and the unsubstantiated diatribe is truly extraordinary.
I don't always agree with your views, but at the very least they are always worth reading, and far more often than not establish the right level for debate.
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It's true. Here in America, everyone is struggling. I've lived in kansas, missouri, colorado, and now arizona. I've seen arkansas, new mexico, and a bit of texas.
In kansas, aircraft companies are struggling, last year I saw 10k people in wichita lose their jobs. I had lost mine working at a fast restraunt that overhired. No company was going to hire me before them.
In oklahoma, most everyone in small towns are on welfare, without the recession. Now even more people are.
In colorado, a lot of it industries laid off. I struggled living here because my love one is in this industry. We were barely making it on unemployment for $500 every 2 weeks. We had a $600 rent to pay, $100 phone bill, $100 car insurance, and $420 car payment. We nearly lost everything. And my reactive hypoglycemia has taken a turn for the worse, making it impossible for me to work.
In august, my love one got a job offer in arizona. So we moved. Previous to this, the bank for our car made it difficult for us to pay, and the financial superviser of it did not like us for some reason. So that impossible to pay in person became much more impossible since the bank is only in colorado. We lost our car. The cash for clunkers made it hard to find a cheap used car, and thus we have been struggling with poor public transportation, inability to buy a car because of trashed credit, not very many used cars anymore, and we nearly lost our house (rent).
And you can't get a job if you don't have an address you live at here in the us, unless you already have that job.
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CBW (40): Thanks for the appreciative comment. Yes, i did read Hercule's posts, and indeed almost all in the Euroblog. My own first comment on an Internet blog ("I just want the EU to die") was nothing to be proud of so i try not to criticise anyone else’s early efforts! It can be hard to pinpoint what it is about something you appreciate or dislike, especially when it is quite complex, and then there is a tendency to fall back on hackneyed phrases. These days i try not to make too many comments, to use as few words as necessary, stay on topic, be polite, and above all 'to know my song well before i start singing'. Personally i appreciate comments such as the one above (41) or many of WebAlice's that provide real insight into how other people live, or experience these issues in their real lives.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
One thing, CBW,
that Hercule_... reminds of is that I don't have to comment just because I want to be heard (or want to participate)
Whoa, that person proves that adage that "silence is golden."
In consequence, I thank him and will try to "say" less and say it less often. lolol.
No harm in just reading, yes?
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Gavin~Thanks for bringing to the attention of the world about the importance of Safety nets and, the usage of Food Stamps in the United States....For the purpose of full disclosure; I know many people who are currently receiving the service via Social Services....
=Dennis Junior=
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This is classic crap,in Europe you live with government involved in all aspects of your life.The european model is doomed to failure big brother making all your choices for you is the prescription for mediocrity.
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comment #37
This comment makes the statement that capitalism relies on taxing the bottom third of the population!what an ignorant statement the top 1% of earners pay 50% of all taxes paid.The bottom 10% receive more then they pay in,in benefits.
If you are going to make statements in favor of your socialist dreams at least make them factual.
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