EU opts for Belgian leader
For nearly eight years, Europe had been debating and discussing how to increase its influence on the world stage. That was one of the driving forces behind the Lisbon Treaty.
The concern was that Europe would not have a seat at the highest table beside America and China. Only recently the British Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, had argued that Europe needed a president who would stop the traffic in Beijing.
But over dinner in Brussels, the leaders came up with a compromise. The job of President of the European Council was given to the Belgian Prime Minister, Herman van Rompuy. He has been successful in negotiating between the French and Flemish factions in Belgium. He is, by all accounts, a good mediator. He probably is able at chairing meetings, but he has no international reputation. He is camera-shy, a man who some refer to as the "grey mouse". He will struggle to command attention when he travels on behalf of Europe.
There is a key to understanding today. The job description for the post of president was changed. In a paper, the Swedes essentially side-lined the part of the role that related to international affairs. The president they envisaged would chair meetings and co-ordinate the agenda. This was now an introspective post. The Lisbon Treaty, however, was quite clear of its intentions. "The President of the European Council... shall ensure the external representation of the Union on issues concerning its common foreign and security policy..."
The power brokers were France and Germany. They still drive much of European Union policy. In this, they co-ordinated their position. Van Rompuy was their man. He was from the right political grouping. He was also from a small party. But crucially he would not over-shadow them. When it comes to an international crisis, the first calls are still likely to be directed towards the Elysee Palace in Paris and the Chancellery in Berlin.
The other key job also went to a relative unknown. Catherine Ashton is the UK's Commissioner in Brussels. She is now the EU's foreign policy supremo. She was not the first choice and she got the job as a result of what looks like a trade-off. The French and Germans wanted Gordon Brown to give up on Blair and in exchange the British got the No 2 job.
It is a significant post, running not just a diplomatic service but being Vice-President of the Commission. Catherine Ashton has little experience in foreign affairs but she has a good reputation for competence. What she will not be able to do in the short-term is speak with a convincing voice about Iran, Afghanistan and the Middle East.
Carl Bildt, a veteran of the European scene, warned today against picking weak candidates. He said Europe would miss a historic occasion and that could diminish Europe's voice in the world.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~52~RS~)
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Federalists will probably be smiling tonight to have a Van Rumpoy who will not overshadow the EU Commission president. But if, as seems likely, the UK renegotiates power back from the EU in the next 5 years then it is Van Rumpoy that will be on the other side of the negotiating table. If i were William Hague i would be far happier to have a Van Rumpoy in that seat than a Blair. Blair would have been 1 million times more politically astute with loads of links to the Labour opposition and to the British media to complicate matters. Van Rumpoy could also easily become an EU image problem. He does not seem to me to be someone who could appeal over the heads of the British government to the British people, and if negotiations get tough i would think the tabloids will have a field day using him to make the EU look old and worn-out.
I am not sure if Baroness Ashton is confirmed as the "High Representative". If so, she may or may not be very effective in foreign policy, but she is certainly going to be away from Brussels a lot. This will not only leave the UK without much input over sensitive issues like regulation of the City (which could become the casus belli on which the UK-EU relationship flounders), but it will also deprive the Brussels machine of a full-time Labour insider who could provide insight on dealing with the UK.
Overall, i would this Van Rumpoy/Ashton outcome is:
1. Slightly positive news for federalists,
2. Good news for EU-sceptics who want the UK out of the EU,
3. Bad news for EU-sceptics who want the UK to stay in the EU and 'reform it from within'.
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Mavrelius! How shocking un-friendly! Be content they've selected a British lady as a curtsy - not only to Britain - but to the USA as well, who'd clearly want and demand and expect give us anything but British - as the lesser evil :o)))
You've got a whole Baroness, for a sec., to keep up happy relations between you and Europe. oh. well. between YOU and Europe - fat :o)))))
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MA, I have a proposal, let Baroness Ashton be your that telephone voice - and Russia will be quite content with Mr Rompuy.
Clearly the Baroness was not intended to help comms with Russia.
Besides, you are un-happy with traffic-stopping qualities of Mr Rompuy.
To me, though, he sounds like something German (Herman), something Dutch (Van) and something French (Rompuy) at once, but nevermind this - don't you see he's a nice man, by the very picture? A picture of what is supposed to mean "a European", by the way.
So let's agree peacefully - before you begin tearing off HVR off our paws! :o))))
And, traffic in Beijung...? ? Let them have, traffic.
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Thank god, he is not british! How arrogant it was from the prime minister of one of the least pro-european nation to try to impose a british as the first european president!
britain has to ask itself if it wants to be an integral member of Europe or not before expecting any position of leadership.
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As a EUrosceptic I am delighted.
These two non-entities pose no threat or challenge whatsoever to the leaders of the Member States - and thus wont be capable of progressing EUro-federalism to the extent that a more charismatic politician (like Blair) could.
Will a President Obama or a Premier Putin really be likely to want to discuss serious matters with Chairman Rumpey or Baroness Whatshername?
For the serious stuff they'll talk, as ever, with the British Prime Minister, The French President and the German Chancellor.
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The new and first president of Europe is a proved good negociator and speaks five or six languages. This alone is a good start. He is also from a state, Belgium, that it is a small sample of what Europe is. My only regret against Van Rompuy is his past opposition to the Turkey accession in the EU. But he might change his mind now over the Turkish aspirations.
The election of Lady Ashton seems very appropiate as well. She is a British europhile woman and she knows in depth the new Lisbon Treaty.
The fact that both characters are far from political celebrities is in my opinion an advantage more than an incovenient: it is a new era from the scratch. Who on earth would like to see again Tony Blair on the news in a daily basis?
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Gavin you report: "Carl Bildt, a veteran of the European scene, warned today against picking weak candidates. He said Europe would miss a historic occasion and that could diminish Europe's voice in the world".
But Europe has no voice in the world!
Betrayed by the discredited self-serving leaders of the members states, we now have a constitution that nobody voted for, and a president who no one elected!
The EU under Lisbon is not merely undemocratic; it is anti-democratic.
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#5 milou
You say "britain has to ask itself if it wants to be an integral member of Europe or not before expecting any position of leadership"
Yes, it would be very nice to be asked - but our duplicitous Prime Minister denied us a vote, as did the other European Leaders following the 'no' vote in France and the Netherlands.
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If anyone wants to undertake a curious experiment to test the quality of this journalism, I suggest the following mental exercise:
Read though this piece and substitute the word "God" for the word "Europe".
See how it reads.
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WA;
"they've selected a British lady as a curtsy - not only to Britain - but to the USA"
That's funny. You don't know what you said but as they say, out of the mouths of babes.....LOL. A courtesy is a favor or kindness. A curtsy (also spelled curtsey) is an act a woman performs by holding the edges of her skirt as she bends her legs with one foot forward as a show of deference to someone of superior or nobler rank. Yes, I think curtsy was the appropriate word in this case.
"MA, I have a proposal"
Now stop right there WA. Those are frightening words for any man to hear from a woman. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't know what that means and how halting it is until I went on from there. Often a proposal is.....one of .....(cough, cough)....ahem....marriage. I'm glad the next phrase didn't materialize my worst fears. :-)
"To me, though, he sounds like something German (Herman), something Dutch (Van) and something French (Rompuy) at once, but nevermind this - don't you see he's a nice man, by the very picture? A picture of what is supposed to mean "a European", by the way."
So that's what you got out of it. To me Rumpoy sounds like some kind of inedible (for me) Thai or South Pacific Island food, kind of like Hawaiian poi made from tarot root only with some ugly sauce on it and then fermented for about two weeks. Rum-poy. Ugh!
Stalin had a nice face. Looked a lot like my Hungarian grandfather did. Big bushy moustasche almost a handlebar moustasche, lots of grey hair, friendly smile. You'd hardly know to see his picture that he was the greatest mass murderer in history. Hitler looked more like a degenerate.
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As a 19-year old American-Cypriot living in Europe I wish the best of luck to Europe's two top leaders, Mr. Rompuy and Mrs. Ashton. It is up to them, now, to prove that celebrity status or the talent to polarize a population need not be prerequisites for good governance.
As a young person living in a rather hate-filled world, I ultimately try put aside patriotism and distaste of supranational -- even national -- rule, in the wish for a truly more united world, for, despite it's many misgivings, political unity is ultimately a step towards greater peace.
We need not become one nation and there is only room for one "United States of --" in this world. I harbor many doubts about the European Union and its future, due to its many faults, but I believe the modern debate on the future of this European economic, political and even social cooperation should concern making ever more strides towards perfecting a work in progress, and it saddens me that, for so many on these forums here as well as elsewhere, it is merely a debate on how best to seek the destruction, rather than the perfection, of the European Union.
Cheers everyone,
Silverfire
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Let me translate the newspeak:
"has no international reputation" = "is not a war criminal"
"would stop traffic in beijing" = "is a media whore"
"able at chairing meetings" = "speaks for europe"
"travels on behalf of Europe" = "chairs meetings"
"relative unknown" = "total unknown from the UK"
"good reputation for competence" = "relative unknown"
"foreign policy supremo" = "second choice trade off"
"speak with a convincing voice" = "tell bare faced lies that contradict earlier statements"
"Europe's voice in the world" = "demand for gas, coal and oil"
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MA I'm glad you find the word Ashton more edible "then we are deciiiided" (low bass) :o)
There were times when I knew where to put comma-s, and respected tenses (right after graduation and for about 2 weeks longer). These times are gone - but vocabularly stayed :o) as is seen - in splashes :o)
I did mean "a curtsy". Any Alice in Wonderland knows what is a curtsy, come along a Black Queen, or a White Queen. Though you made it very complex, in those legs, how to say, explanations :o))
No! I take back all I said ab vocabulary, which "proposals" ?? don't know them those any Sorry :o))) I let you down in your worst expectations :o))))
better listen to a fairy-tale :o)
"According to the looks of the manuals and instructions, slipped into the US-made electric appliances - Americans are in the habit to put three fingers into electric sockets.
And Russians - whole 10.
:o)))
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#12 Silverfire
You say "the wish for a truly more united world, for, despite it's many misgivings, political unity is ultimately a step towards greater peace"
Yes, I agree a 'more united world' could be a step towards 'a greater peace' - but political unity that is imposed without any democratic legitimacy can actually have the opposite effect. Generally, people like to feel that they have some say in how they are governed and become resentful when their basic democratic freedoms are removed (even if they are told it is for the 'greater good')
You say "it saddens me that, for so many on these forums here as well as elsewhere, it is merely a debate on how best to seek the destruction, rather than the perfection, of the European Union"
There are many people (and I am one of them) who support a 'European Union', but unfortunately the basic concept has significantly changed from the 'Common Market' on which were consulted in a referendum back in 1975.
The first two countries that were able to vote on the new 'constitution' decided NO. So our political leaders decided to pull the democratic rug, cobble together an alternative constitutional treaty, then pretend it was sufficiently different so that no more referenda were needed. This was a massive fraud.
Unity achieved through democracy is a laudable goal. But imposing a system that no one has voted for, or appointing a president who has not been elected is totally anti-democratic.
As an American, you will no doubt appreciate Lincoln's words from the Gettysburg Address, that government should be "of the people, by the people, for the people"
Unfortunately, the EU does not meet this ideal. 'Work in progress' as you say is one thing - but here we are going in completely the wrong direction.
If a huge building is constructed on shifting sands rather than solid foundations, there is a very real possibility it will eventually collapse.
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It is an unhappy sign of the times that people are judged on looks and appeal rather than on substance. I saw that the Daily mail referred to Mr. Van Rompuy as a clown. Hardly a show of intelligence there. I'm sure it gets the papers sold, but you have to be worried about the people who buy the paper and read that article as much as the ones who wrote it.
Would it have been better to have had Blair at the helm perhaps? Lets look at his achievements, playing lap dog to one of the worst US presidents in history, two disastrous wars that are still bleeding money and killing off soldiers at an alarming rate with no real exit strategy. He was appointed peace maker for the middle east because of his so called 'profile'. The middle east is at its worst point in ages with the Israeli's building new settlements in occupied territory and Abbas's recent resignation. What has Blair done there? Was he off sick the day of the negotiations? Yet is seems, people are still willing to have him as the president of the EU because he could 'stop traffic in Beijing'. I'm sure he could.
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WA;
I haven't made any comment about the Baron-ashton yet. From her bio on BBC, she seems like one of those 1960s or 1970s peacenicks who wanted to surrender to the USSR through unilateral nuclear disarmament. Now with the USSR gone, who will she surrender the EUSSR to? Not the USA for sure. More likely Iran or al Qaeda. Paraphrasing the old US tobacco company ad, she'd rather switch than fight. From what I can tell she is a first rate loser. She fits the job description to a tee.
It's a sobering thought that Europe is so pitiful that had Arnold Schwartznegger stayed in Europe or Barack Obama, Condie Rice, or many other of America's most prominent public personalities been born there, their lives would have been wasted for lack of opportunity while had Europe's leaders lived in America, they'd be regarded as mediocre flunkies who'd have gotten nowhere for lack of ability.
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WA;
"I did mean "a curtsy". Any Alice in Wonderland knows what is a curtsy"
I'm impressed. You know even more than I gave you credit for. I'm also surprised at your daring slap at the EU. Even you recognize that 27 dwarfs are diminutive to one black king...er I mean African American President. Right now he's got important problems to worry about like how his health care plan will survive the Senate, whether unemployment will go up and he'll lose control over Congress next year, China, Japan, North Korea, Iran. He's probably hoping the dwarfs can take care of themselves without his help for awhile. So far not so good. He goes to Asia for a short trip and look at what they come up with for leaders. Even worse than the three blind mice.
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Another dark day for democracy in Europe. Every opinion poll shows that the people of Europe are against this, but why would the politicians care? They sit around in smoky rooms negotiating what's best for them. No doubt he's going to pay himself vast amounts of our money, and have a special office to fill in his expenses claims.
He wants to impose European-wide taxes. An unelected bureaucrat. No taxation without representation, was that?
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Interesting to note that another Belgian (Luc Van Den Brande, a Fleming from the same party CD+V) is already President of the Committee of Regions. It seems that these Belgians - just two percent of the EU population, and coming from a country that is in fact two countries in a bad marriage - have a knack of creeping into the highest positions in Brussels.
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i'm glad they eliminated the international role for the new presidency. it would have been very confusing to have yet another person trying to have their voice heard as "mr europe". as i see it now, the coordinating role, in descending order of clout within their respective areas, will be:
money / finance: ecb head
trade / industry / finance: commission president
diplomacy / security / crises: new high rep (and commission vp)
the national government heads (esp sarkozy) will undoubtedly still assert their independent voices in all these areas.
and just so everybody is clear about how to interpret this in terms of the federalism vs democracy false dichotomy, the choice of two non-entities perfectly reflects the fact that the national governments acting in concert still run the eu and fully intend to keep it that way.
the "democratic" solution would be a federal one in which the "mr europe" was directly elected by the european public instead of being picked by national governments haggling behind closed doors.
bena gyerek
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merlino @ 20
that's probably to do with the relative attractions of the job. the belgian "national" government is such an emasculated joke these days, that a "move to brussels" is a big step up career-wise. the same is not true of most other countries, where a move to brussels would sideline a politician from national politics, which is where the real power is. just look at the kinds of people who get picked as eu commissioners - mainly national political has-beens.
i wonder whether van rompuy's appointment will throw belgian national politics back into turmoil. anyone with an insight on that?
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The EU has a president who is not elected, but has a mere ceremonial role, not unlike the German president, who is not elected either. The first president comes from a country that has served as the major European battlefield for the majore European powers for centuries. A country which has given the world people like PP Rubens, Sir Anthony Van Dijck, Leo Baekelandt (who invented backelite), as well as the Saxophone and the best beers ever. So the tabloids had better held their tongues. Abovr all, Herman Van Rompuy is fluent in four languages. Yes, Van RomPUY. Even tabloid so-called 'journalists' could at lreast get the spelling right.
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Traffic in Beijing tends to be stationary anyway.
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It is confirmed the europhobes and the europhobe media lied to us. Post Lisbon Treaty and post EU chairman/High rep and the world has not come to an end. I was afraid it would had been a "dark day" today in Europe, it looks as good as yesterday.
We have a friendly Belgian organising meetings that is nice, now taking into account the previous lies the europhobe media reported, I'll ignore any uninteligent comments they make about the good Belgian. Now Ben Elton and his comments about our own royal family here, that I could almost believe :))
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Much of this episode just shows me how stereotypical one get's over another country. When you live in this country some of the stories and pictures in the UK Press are just hilarious, but on the other hand it just shows you how much we don't give a penny about the facts when it comes to jingoism. Examples? The Daily Mail had a Belgian as source on Van Rompuy...who was leader of a conservative political student club until recently and works for a neo-liberal think thank. It's like Belgian media would call someone at the student club in Brighton to get info on Gordon Brown. It was part of their argumentation that he is a dangerous man for Britain. The poster with the clowns nose is from the Flemish Communist Party that had a whopping 0,7% of the vote in Flanders (less than 0,2% if you count the whole country). The poster has never been seen so much in this country as now. But is presented as 'that's how they see him in his own country'. If you take the fact that it is less then 2 hours by train between our countries, you do not want to know how accurate your info is on something a few hours further on. I do not know if our press is any much better at using nationality as a good marker to set people apart as it was 100 years ago. Next time better for Fleet Street, you can't have 'GOTCHA!' on your front page every day...
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I fear that these appointments will turn out to be a EU own goal, as I said in Gavin's previous blog, scored via the back pass from the centre spot at kick off! :-(
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"Mr President, Mr Prime Minister, my Lords, Ladies, Gentlemen and Honoured Guests, I have the privilege to introduce to you the European Union Chairman (President) of the Council, Msr Rompuy and the High Representtaive for Foreign Affairs, Baroness Ashton."
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!
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In reply to comments @ #28:
They used to say that about Churchill in the mid 1930s, not that I'm comparing these two appointees with the great man (most defiantly not): my point is, saying what you have, even before they have had time to sit behind their desks never mind actually show what they might or might not be able to do/achieve, relegates your comments firmly into the "Lets say anything that bashes the EU" league of anti EU rants - no surprise there then...
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Re "Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!"
Nice to see you'll always find something to whine about.
If they were well known and (openly) ambitious politicians you'd be whining about the superstate Europe. Now they are unknown and don't show their ambition too overtly and that isn't good either.
Another sign of the fact that you don't really know what is going on. You just hear stuff about powers being exercised through the EU instead of at national level > you get sceptical, but don't inform yourself > you start shooting at 'the' EU (of course not a monolith) with whichever munition you can find, unfettered by the internal contradictions of your comments.
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It's troubling that for someone who is supposed to represent European ideals such as tolerance and freedom of religion, Herman van Rompuy has basically flat out-said "Europe's values are Christian; Muslims weaken these values". Such remarks would get even most American politicians in trouble. Aside from needlessly distancing crucial NATO allies like Turkey, this attitude insults the millions of historical Muslims in Eastern Europe and the more recent immigrants to the West. It is especially ironic for a Belgian to be talking about the threat from Turkey when even neighbouring countries like Greece and Romania are favour of its EU membership.
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On big issues such as the financial crisis or trade with china, none of the EU leaders with an 'international profile' (Especially Brown, Sarkozy, Merkel) are going to have their countries policy determined by each other. They need someone who doesnt WANT to portray themselves as having all the power, and who all the 'internationally profiled' leaders will listen to through respecting protocol. I think, through whatever trade off, this could turn out to be 2 great appointments for the EU. Other than high-profile media coverage, these 2 hardly lack pedigree!
Also to those who claim the lisbon treaty is undemocratic:
- Its true that the population of Ireland (and France?) voted against the treaty.
- Its also true that when asked what the treaty was/was about, the overwelming majority HAD NO CLUE WHAT IT ACTUALLY CONTAINED, nor what its effects would be on their country & EU, thus they voted no.
- The treaty that took years to construct and alter to gain concensus could have therefore been shot down essentially by millions of people who had no idea what they're doing, nor what the treaty will do, and what it will mean for them.
In this light, i think its more than sensible not to open the vote to the public. Given the number of unqualified euroskeptics in the UK for example, and the general tendency for people not to vote (hence giving the minority who do turn out, usually against the general consensus of opinion, an unrepresentatively large percentage of the vote), a public vote could hardly be regarded as a better way to decide european matters than letting our leaders (elected in a process the majority of the population understands) represent our country.
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We are all so infested by rocj star celebritism, that 'low profile' seems to become synonym to incompetence. At least the Ashton/Van Rompuy does not have egoes to display and/or private agendas to pursue and might therefore be able to do its job.
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#31, Eliade
No, he has not said so, not least because the member states that insist on a separation of state and church would not accept any reference to religion in the LT.
#32. UK European
If there is a means against nationalism, I do not know it.
To those of us, who support the European integration, the last round once again has demonstrated that EU is a cooperation of nation states. They had agreed way back that they needed to have a common representation, thus the appointments that were made yesterday. The elected leaders of the nation states decided these appointments, and the appointed will have to deal with the leaders of the nation states, when they take office.
We are in for a long walk!
I have no doubt that particularly pressures from outside that is the global development, can change this – I doubt if it will be an internal development, since most people identify with the nation state, not only in GB.
Let me just mention one theme that makes the European nation state look quite irrelevant: The Danish hosts of the climate summit in December are now putting limitation of an increase in population on the table.
Somehow Europeans will understand that they have to speak with one voice – in a number of matters.
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I have to say I'm baffled at the way this debate is going. Let me point out that while I'm Belgian, I don't share Van Rompuy's political affiliation and hence have never voted for him. Having said that, the way he's being portrayed by some is nothing short of preposterous..
Because he's no ego-tripping prima donna, that's enough for some to portray him as a spineless grey mouse... Any one who has listened to Van Rompuy's first press conference as pres-elect will be able to testify, this man is no push-over. If you take the trouble to look beyond the appearances you will have heard a man who's both inspired and inspiring and who's probably well positioned to restore sorely needed momentum and direction to the EU.
But surprise, surprise, as usual the UK media insist on making an utter fool of themselves when reporting on an EU-related issue.
So let's clarify a few things:
1) The job of Council president is not new. It is currently held by Sweden and used to be appointed by rotation!
2) Instead of continuing the 6-month rotation it has now become a job where the heads of State elect their chair for a period of 2,5 years, for efficiency's sake. Precisely what might be wrong with that?
3) Those who always opposed increasing the democratic representativeness of the EU (eg by opposing the Lisbon treaty), are now jumping up and down, because they didn't get to vote on a position they never wanted? So unless every single office holder in a democratic infrastructure has been appointed in his/her position by means of a popular election, all of a sudden the whole system no longer is democratic, is it?? Funny the British opposition should say that! So tell me please, will UKIP & Tories now argue for the UK to have an elected Head of State (like the French do), or have elected judges and chiefs of police (like the US do). If not, we will regretfully have to conclude that, by their own bizarre logic, the Tories and UKIP no longer think the UK is run in a democratic manner...
So, as Hillary Clinton indicated when she came to see Cameron/Haig a week or so ago, the EU policy pursued by the Tories (and by extension UKIP) doesn't make any sense and does nothing but damage the UK's national interests. It can lead to only one result, ie to destroy the UK's international clout and reduce it to irrelevance ...
Who will be to blame for that? This is what you get when you fail to exercise critical/democratic oversight over a tabloid press which expressly instructs its journalists to print only negative news on the EU while withholding all the positive...
The sad conclusion of the whole story is that with the notable exeption of the Lib Dems ea, nobody in the UK is capable of making any sense when it comes to EU matters. Meanwhile the rest of the UK is happily following the pied pipers of the tabloid and Murdoch press. But do you really think they'll be there to pick up the pieces when the chickens come home to roost??
In case you might have missed it, your brethren across the Atlantic embarked on a similar course a few years ago, when the intellectual powerhouses of the Murdoch press "revealed" Saddam Hussain had WMD and was responsible for 9/11...
Now Rupert has had a vision that the European continent is full of wicked anti-democrats hell-bent on destroying the remnants of the British Empire. And the good souls of Tory and UKIP conviction followed the piper, and they lived happily forever after!!
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It's instructive that Germany and France weren't interested in holding the two new 'top' posts. Germany is said to prefer holding a leading economic post in the EC, and France wants at least to retain the presidency of the ECB.
Furthermore transferring Baroness Ashton to a post with doubtful authority in Europe's foreign policy certainly removes Britain from a key EU economic post - trade policy; but London's part in the global financial crisis probably caused many to conclude that it has forfeited any right to a role in European economic affairs.
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Surely this is the right way to go. It's a new job and a new organisation and two lesser known but competent people can find their own way without megapublicity. Next time round others can decide whether the posts can be made more glitzy and prominent.
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#35
Don't just stop at the American (who gave up his Australian citizenship to become American) there are additional "freedom" defenders here in the UK that always defend our freedom from the "undemocratic" EU, we also have Richard Desmond, publishing his unbiased advice :)
some time I think our title as "whingeing pommy" that the Australians have given us is spot on.
Also another famous English immigrants complain about what did they most miss about england is "what I miss most about England is, that its next to France!"
So, although we "whinge" and complain deep down for the most of us that don't have inferiority (or superiority) complexes we know it is a good choise for us.
At least that Belgian guy may do some actual work rather than make news appearances all the time for self promoting reasons :))
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"He (van Rompuy) was also from a small party ..."
I think you mean "from a small nation"?
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#32 UK European
You write:
"Also to those who claim the lisbon treaty is undemocratic:
- Its true that the population of Ireland (and France?) voted against the treaty."
I'm not sure why you have a question mark next to France where the vote was a resounding NO. Also, you have conveniently forgotten to mention the Netherlands, whose citizens also voted no!
The Lisbon treaty and its imposition is certainly undemocratic. The idea that the Lisbon Treaty was somehow 'different' to the earlier treaty (rejected by the French and Dutch) is false. Giscard d'Estaing admitted at the time that the changes were cosmetic.
You conclude: "In this light, i think its more than sensible not to open the vote to the public."
If you take that view, why bother with democracy at all? Why not let our better informed politicians stay in office for as long as they think best, then let them appoint their own successors without the need for elections?
Your argument in favour of Lisbon seems to be (I'm paraphrasing) that the people of Europe are too stupid or too ill informed to make the 'right' decision - so it's better to let our political masters decide for us, for our own good.
That is the road to tyranny!
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Mr. Van Rompuy is a very able man and will quickly gain respect in Europe and indeed the rest of the world. No doubt about it. I was very glad when he took over in Belgium from the completely uncontrollable Mr. Leterme, who had let the conflict between Flemish and Walloons get completely out of hand (he himself provoked the French speaking part continuously). As mr. Leterme's successor Mr Van Rompuy built bridges and brought peace, through very sensible measures and policies. He will be missed tremendously here in Belgium and let's hope his promotion will not lead to renewed skirmishes in this country. A break up of Belgium would lead to many tensions and possibly other break ups in the rest of Europe (aided by the single currency) and could undermine stability in the EU. Some Flemish are prepared to push Belgium over the brink (not the internationally orientated Flemish, like myself, but the extremely immobile, nationalistic and also extremely conservative Flemish).
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#35 robbyvdw
"This is what you get when you fail to exercise critical/democratic oversight over a tabloid press which expressly instructs its journalists to print only negative news on the EU while withholding all the positive..."
Generally, people buy newspapers whose editorial style best reflects their own politics - as is their democratic right. If some newspapers print stories about negative aspects of the EU, that is because there is much to be said. Perhaps you think it is better to sweep things under the carpet, like all the years the EU accounts were not signed off by the auditors?
You are missing the point when you say "this is what you get when you fail to exercise critical/democratic oversight".....
People would like nothing more than an opportunity to exercise a democratic oversight! But this duplicitous Government promised a referendum, then changed its mind. The people have been denied their right to have a say on this issue.
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"So unless every single office holder in a democratic infrastructure has been appointed in his/her position by means of a popular election, all of a sudden the whole system no longer is democratic, is it??"
The whole system is undemocratic as it has been imposed by stealth and deceit to the benefit of the European Elite. This case is just one example but a fine one. All the democracy and transparency of a Papal appointment.
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As a Belgian, i am very proud that Herman Van Rompuy became the first president of the EU.
I know that only a few people know him in Europe, comparing with mr. Blair. But i see this as a very strong point of him.
He hardly has any enemies, who could make things run less smoothly, giving alot of troubles.
It would also have been a shame that the first president would have been someone of the UK.
Firstly, because the UK is not really EU-minded. They still refuse to become a complete part of the EU.
And secondly, because the UK was not a founding father, as to speak, of the EU. The basic foundation of the EU were laid within the BENELUX( Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg ).
The point of view of a united, and strong coworkingship with several countries was first introduced in the BENELUX.
As from this, Belgium has a very important role in the history of the EU, and with this brings alot of experience to bind several countris their strengths and lessen the weak points of the seperate countries.
Another strenght of Mr. Van Rompuy( except his so called difficult name for the Anglo-American press ), is that he has been a politican in Belgium.
Belgium has a very difficult political scene, much to compare with the EU.
As Belgium has 6 governments in a small region, it is important to search for compromises, so that everybody wins, and nobody looses.
Mr. Van Rompuy has been in this political scene for decades, and knows how to stabilize a region, who is basicly very instable due to cultural differences.
In a EU with 27 countries, this is a very important cjaracteristic.
He has no starpower at all, and i think this is good. Because politics are not done in front of the cameras, but it is done in small rooms and meetings.
He also is a very down to earth man, who is both cultural and academically schooled, making him a good representation of the EU.
I hope that most Europeans will look at his accomplishments, and not his lack of unnecessary star power.
Good luck Herman Van Rompuy, make the people proud and unite the European Union even more!!!
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Me_rijn
re #30
You really do remind me of the 'monolithic' classic:
Whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge.......
Don't worry it is an 'english' humour thing - - in this case a reference to a certain tv comic character of the Monty Python era - - whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge......
Guffaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
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# 44 Niels
"He hardly has any enemies, who could make things run less smoothly, giving alot of troubles"
Praise indeed!
I'm sure he's a very nice chap, but who voted for him?
And who voted for the Lisbon Treaty that created this permanent presidency?
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KarKraus
Re #26
Interesting viewpoint of the assumed biased UK Newspapers.
However, about as useful for characterising an entire Nation as my observation when visiting my Walloon Godmother in her residence on the Rue Des 3 Arbres, Brussels some 4 months ago. Germaine showed me a couple of Belgian newspapers with images of Americans in Texan high hats plus Englishmen in bowler hats and Beefeater sentinels at the Tower - - the articles accompanying the pictures were about the disagreement between the US-UK and our supposed NATO Allies on commitment of forces to Afghanistan - - apparently sterile, stereotypical images help us all out when we want to easily identify someone or something for the readership.
Anecdotally we can all find fault: One very laudable purpose of the EU at its inception was that the 'stereotype' should remain only in print and not a cause for general disaffection leading to international crises. In that respect the EEC/EU has succeeded beyond all expectation and deserves much credit.
Unlike the previous 1,000 years of European development that individual nationalities still have their particular imagery for each other is no longer a cause for despondency or alarm. Indeed even those images are changing, but in popular culture across the British Isles and Europe such deep-rooted, unconscious configuring of peoples will inevitably take considerable time (e.g. only a couple of years ago President Chirac was overheard dubiously critiquing Finnish and English food though his experience of either's modern cuisine was surely almost anecdotal!?).
No real harm was/is meant or done.
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# 42, 46
DistantTraveller
You are very wrong and you know it.
#42, The europhobe media produces biased news, even if I for one second accept your argument that their readers want biased news and lies as correct. That in itself does not stop they report biased news and lies. They are no different to what PRAVDA was to the soviet regime, report one point of view.
#46, who voted for our queen and who voted for our lords using your logic the whole lot of them are undemocratic and illegal.
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Toot toot! Toot-toot!
Here comes the train.
Pleased step aside off the tracks President Obama! Please step away from the edge of the platform President Putin! Move a safe distance back President Jintao. The Eurostar Von Rumpoy Express is arriving with President Von Rumpoy himself at the helm. How come there isn't a parade and a marching band to greet him? Where's the pomp and ceremony Europe is famous for? What kind of coronation is this to be anyway?
Marcel #23;
"The EU has a president who is not elected, but has a mere ceremonial role"
Kind of like a Royal family? Just one more parasite to eat at the public trough? If these posts are just ceremonial, why have them at all? When someone calls Rumpoy asking what Europe's position is on an issue, he'll have to give them a list of 27 other phone numbers. Big Brother was just a symbol too. All SSRs need symbols. When will the posters and statues start appearing? I'm afraid that statue of Nelson will have to go, that's where Rumpoy's likness will be placed. Britain, meet your new master or at least its symbol. You made your bed, now lie in it.
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#49
Could we rent some space in that mountain of yours where your keep the likness of your deities and demigods for pilgrams to worship? :))
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#42
I suggest you have a look at a dictionary and check out the difference between journalism and propaganda. News reporting without a commitment to unbiased objectivity unfortunately doesn't qualify as journalism...
The latter implies, requires even, that both sides of an argument be presented, both positive and negative.
Hence what BBC, CNN etc do is journalism. What The Sun, Fox News etc engage in is propaganda. As Geraldo Rivera of Fox puts it so eloquently, Fox "report the news not as it is, but how they see it".
Does any one deny you the right to spend your money on propaganda? Of course not, just don't kid any one into believing this is journalism!
If you want to spend your money so you can sponsor the political agenda of any supporter of such agenda, go right ahead! Propaganda mongers have a long and rich tradition of pursuing their own private agenda's, whatever the cost to society. You will be joining the ranks of the likes of Fox's Bill O'Reilly who insults 9/11 victims on air for being "unpatriotic" in opposing the Iraq war. And of course there's the even more illustrious/infamous predecessors who developed propaganda into their own definition of "a fine art": Nazi-Germany's Goebbels and Stalin's Pravda. Such fine company to keep, and what a small price to pay for the privilege of not having to hear the other side of an argument, isn't it??
And what was your excuse for joining the ranks of such illustrious predecessors, the defense of freedom and democracy???
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DistantTraveller
Re #15
Careful! You will be upsetting the 'democratic' values of the 'pro-EU' if you carry on!
"...political unity imposed without any democratic legitimacy..": Look only today Msr Barroso (the unelected Commission President, unless you count the MEP votes, none of whom had 35% of their own Constituencies' votes in 2009) told us all how the 2 new appointments 'strengthen the EU ties with the people'!
Now he wouldn't tell a whopper, would he?
Honestly, how you have the nerve to suggest the EU is "built on shifting sands": Mentioning no European Citizens except those in Eire got any vote at all for the Lisbon Treaty that now provides those Citizens with a President of the Council and a High Representative for Foreign Affairs as if it was some sort of political stitch-up by the elite pro-EU leadership?
The EU is steeped in 'democracy': There's a European Parliament (admittedly no popular Mandate above 50% for the last 20 years); there's the EU Commission whose Commissioners are appointed by National Governments (admitted the Commissioners get appointed by the same behind closed-doors methods as the esteemed Council President and High Representative); then there's the EU European Court of Justice which has supremacy over all National legislation (admitted that means there's no real point to Voting for a particular Party with a particular Policy that it makes into Law if it then gets set-aside by the ECJ).
Come on! Why don't you just listen to the 'pro-EU' argument that the EU is really replicating political-constitutional methods of the National systems?
So, the National constitutions are so bad they decided to make the EU in their likeness and that is a really good recommendation, isn't it!?
What "greater good" can there be than a European Economic Community ('Common Market') founded on the very best principles of Democratic accountability and the rights of the Citizens evolving into a European Union upon which only 4,000,000 of 450,000,000 (i.e. approx 1%) have had the democratic right to express an opinion?
EU Democracy in action: Makes you step back and admire it, doesn't it!
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robbyvdw
Re #51
Goodness me! You certainly told all of us.
And on the topic of 'kidding', let's not have you running away with the idea that your particular selection of newspapers and television channels is the one for the neutral in society!
I can see how DistantTraveller's remark that 'democratic oversight' would worry someone as skilled in the art of determining who is correct and who is incorrect in their presentation of 'news' items. It is thoughtful of you to come on here and write it all down for us: We can now go away and rest in the assured knowledge that you and others like you know all there is to know about such matters on our behalf.
Apart from the BBC every UK terrestrial and satellite television channel is privately owned: Though I do not know about every other nation I am fairly certain a similar situation prevails when it comes to 'news' gathering and reporting. There are still the monopolistic State-owned channels of certain Nations, but these have been increasingly undermined by technology allowing public access to other media.
So far as I am aware that would pretty much allow for a huge swathe of Editorial opinion and the BBC (being in receipt of massive Public monies and overseen by Parliamentary Charter) would not be exempt from such pressures anymore than Fox, Sky, Al Jazeera, ABC, CCTV9 (China's international station), France's state-owned tv (I cannot recall its official name) etc.
Newspapers have long been the preserve of the very rich and very powerful, hence the term 'press-barons', e.g. Northcliffe, Beaverbrook and in more recent times Turner, Murdoch, Black, Sullivan etc. Any idea the public are unaware there are differences in style and content is tantamount to you suggesting they cannot differentiate a horse from a donkey or a camel and just as insulting.
Herr Goebbels! An interesting allusion: When the Ministry for Information broadcast on German radio and censored articles in German newspapers do you suppose the whole of Germany was as dumb as you appear to think we average citizens are?
Only even after all that censorship and burning down the Reichstag the much vaunted leader of the National Socialists, Adolf Hitler in the last democratic election in the Third Reich, polled lower than he had before the Nazis took power!
Which brings us to the question of what is it you think you know that nobody else knows about? And, even if you know it, does it make any more valid than anyone else's opinion?
I think not.
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Reminds me of the turn of the century (1900) when everyone was dividing up China as concessions. A little different this time because a country must go through some Politburo member to secure contracts for favorable consideration and cheap labor. Just a new gang running the show, but fundementally the same game. Europe hopes to sell its middle class out like the US has done and further undermine the national economies so that big business and bankers can continue to take advanatage of everyone. Cicero would always ask the Roman Senate "Qui Bono?", who benefits. What exactly does the average citizen of Europe gain from this alliance? It is another business scheme to promote the robber barons, nothing more. The Chinese have not forgotten the treatment of the past and are patient in waiting to have some revenge..greed always blinds.
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#52
add the Spanish to the 4,000,000 it brings it up to 10% :)))
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#48 ChrisArta
"You are very wrong and you know it."
You are entitled to your own opinion, but your comment suggests I am deliberately saying something that I don't actually believe. You have absolutely no justification for making that claim.
As for 'biased news and lies' to which you refer, that is also your opinion. My point is that in a democracy, people can choose which newspapers (if any) they wish to read. They are likely to choose a paper that has an editorial line sympathetic to their own views. The argument that the 'biased' media has turned us into a nation of Europhobes actually insults the intelligence of the public. People do not change their opinions based on what the newspapers tell them.
If you really think the public is that foolish, this might explain why you don't seem much in favour of giving people a democratic vote on the future direction of the EU. Perhaps you think you know what is best for the rest of us?
"who voted for our queen and who voted for our lords using your logic the whole lot of them are undemocratic and illegal"
Her Majesty the Queen is a Constitutional Monarch and has no power to alter government policy (hence the embarrassment of hearing her read Gordon's speech the other day).
Unlike the new President of the EU, who will be de-facto the front man for Europe, the Queen is not a political figure and does not speak on behalf of her subjects.
The House of Lords is certainly an anachronism, but in reality has little power. It is an amending chamber and can suggest changes to legislation or ask the house of commons to think again. These days, much legislation passes through the commons without being debated in full, requiring amendments at committer stage or in the Lords.
If the President of Europe and so-called 'foreign affairs minister' have no power, then what is the point of having them? However, if they do have real power, then they should be democratically elected.
Going back a stage further, we should have been consulted if we wanted these new posts in the first place.
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#52 cool_brush_work
"EU Democracy in action: Makes you step back and admire it, doesn't it!"
You sum it up very well!!
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I agree with Freeborn John. Notwithstanding that it will make life harder for those of us who wanted reform from within, I am mightily relieved that the EU leadership has not foisted a high profile figure onto us as Council President. A solid chairman with good negotiating skills is precisely what was needed, not an all-singing, all-dancing tabloid star. As for Ashton, it is just possible that in sending her to Brussels so that he could drag back the indispensable Mandelson for domestic duties, he actually sent them someone quite good. She may not be high profile but the leaders are not stupid and they may have spotted in her a talent yet to be realised. It is also quite an astute move in that they may have felt the UK needed a consolation prize and neither the single currency nor Schengen, which may be highly contentious within Europe but will not be unduly troublesome in a foreign affairs context.
For those who see a Franco-Germany conspiracy behind all this, I think you are giving too much credit to Sarkozy who, for all his flamboyance does not strike me as that sure footed. (In fact, I have a somewhat light hearted view of Mr. van Rumpole performing expertly in the forum but ever mindful of 'she who must be obeyed' in Berlin. Pity there is not a physical resemblance to complete the image). Brown has probably got as good a deal as he could expect given that he is certainly side-lined for the duration of his administration.
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#53 - cool_brush_work
"Apart from the BBC every UK terrestrial and satellite television channel is privately owned". Channel 4 is not privately owned.
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ChrisArta
Re #55
Sorry, ate you saying Spain had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty?
If it did I congratulate the Spanish Government for its adherence to 'democratic' principles: It only increases the annoyance that 25 other Nations were denied this Right and Responsibility.
Of course, if you are making this up (it was a remarkbly quiet referendum! When was it and what was the result?), then I will laugh with you at the 10% quip!
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threnodio
Re #59
I stand corrected: Alongside the UK's entirely publicly funded by compulsory Television License Fee BBC, there is Channel 4 which is entirely commercially funded but has a Public Service Broadcasting remit overseen by the IBA.
Phew!
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#60
" What "greater good" can there be than a European Economic Community ('Common Market') founded on the very best principles of Democratic accountability and the rights of the Citizens evolving into a European Union upon which only 4,000,000 of 450,000,000 (i.e. approx 1%) have had the democratic right to express an opinion?"
plus the Spanish to make that statement more accurate :))
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#56
They still produce one biased views and lies, that's all I'm saying there I say nothing about the people. But if you think that media have no influence on people, you should patent that (opinion/research) and sell it to Coca Cola and everyone else that spends billions every year to get their images and views on the media. They would save billions, on your news that media does not change people's opinions :) and that brings us to the point where I think that either "you are wrong and you know it" or ????
About the Lords having no power, What's Lord Medelson doing then?
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62. ChrisArta
"...plus the Spanish..."
Can you post a link?
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#60
While you are correct in saying that Spain did not vote on Lisbon, it did vote in favour of the Constitution. Nonetheless you dismiss their approval of it for the rather obvious reason that they don't agree with your point of view.
Yet many Eurosceptics such as yourself often quote ad nauseum the rejection of that same Constitution by the French and Dutch.
The good news for you British, despite your fears of being dominated by some totalitarian soviet-style "EU Superstate" since the ratification of Lisbon, is that the same Treaty, much despised and vilified by the disciples of Murdochworld, allows a member state to actually leave the European Union.
Voila!, now you have your opportunity to leave. All thanks to Lisbon, legally and without rancour. Mechanisms are in place for you to plough your own furrow once again on that sceptered isle. Time for Little England to stand alone against the barbarian hordes of Europa. So grasp your chance. Go. The other 26 will move on without this constant harping, nagging and scepticism of America's spy in the camp.
I'm certain the Murdoch Press, the Conservative Party, UKIP and the BNP can begin the process. Goodness knows the allegedly pro-EU Labour Party reluctance to joining the Euro or taking part in Schengen only proves how lukewarm at best is their regard for Europe.
And to the inevitable response of the "we'll save the amount we put in", remember both Norway and Switzerland contribute substantial sums the EU for access to the market and many EU programmes.
In any case, take advantage of Lisbon, and like a spoilt overgrown child still living with parents, just go for everyones sake. The constant whining is becoming tiresome and I'm sure your former colony will happily take you under her eagles wing. Might lose your precious pound and closed border but it will be worth it, right?
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Further to #36. Ireland may be penalised too.
French EU commissioner may get internal market portfolio
France is expecting to get the internal market and financial services portfolio in the next European Commission following its support for a Briton winning the post of EU foreign policy chief. . . The internal market dossier has never been held by a French national but Paris recently made it clear it would like to be in charge of the area following a five-year reign by Ireland's Charlie McCreevy, whose regulatory light-touch and strong belief in the good of free market forces has been source of irritation in the French capital.
Britain, whose City of London is the centre of much international financial activity, has a strong interest in who is in charge of financial services - and had pushed to have it made a separate dossier. [But the deal to remove Baroness Ashton] means that Britain has been taken out of the equation when it comes to handing out portfolios. . .
Germany, which did not put any names forward for the two new top posts, is also looking for a weighty economic portfolio in the commission.
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Europaunie
Re #65 and my #60.
Aye?
Look, ChrisArta wrote Spain had a Referendum and I've not known him to deliberately mislead in these debates: So, I just wrote asking about it.
I now gather it was a stretch of the proverbial political truth - - no surprise as the 'pro-EU' contributors such as yourself ad nauseum duplicitously change your 'democratic' argument to suit your particular line of debate.
Guess what? I suspect some of us 'anti-EU' do the same!
That said, on the next Blog article RCalvo75 goes so far as to claim as you imply to some extent on this one that the Spanish voting 'yes' to the Constitution implicitly means their 'yes' to the Lisbon Treaty. That by any 'democratic' yardstick is a truly astonishingly undemocratic idea. A document voted on by the Citizens 3 years ago is no justification for any assumptions about the Voter intentions of Citizens on different, though similar, documents 3 years later.
If you are in the 'Calvo75' camp on that then you are as anti-democracy as many 'pro-EU' seem to be whenever the rights of the Citizens are at stake.
It is the fundamental reason the Federal EU project is ultimately doomed to failure: People simply will not tolerate this high-handed, elitist approach to their basic Rights and Responsibilities under the tenets of Democratic procedure.
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#64
20 February 2005
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@CBW
Please note as in my comment at 62 it was not aimed specific at LT. If we were talking only about the LT then you are right. Ireland is the only nation that I'm aware, but that then we are not talking about Frensh or Dutch rejections either ok?:)
And as we all know now the LT is not a constitution so we don't need a referedum to approve a treaty :)
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ChrisArta
Re #68 and #69
Thanks for the clarification: I had thought you must be referring to the 'Constitution' but wanted to be sure.
My remarks on this Blog all concern the Lisbon Treaty and the failure of any Nation bar Eire to offer its Citizens a voice in the matter.
Okay, it is late (01.49 over here) so to conclude: Just a final question for you to ponder overnight or as you please.
If the LT is not a 'constitution' then why did the Eire Government require 3 Protocols specific to their own 'Constitution' before they could persuade their Citizens to approve it?
Cheers and Good night!
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Thomas814827 wrote:
"It is an unhappy sign of the times that people are judged on looks and appeal rather than on substance. I saw that the Daily mail referred to Mr. Van Rompuy as a clown. "
A clown? Pretty scary looking clown. The man looks to me like one of Santas' more perverted elves. After getting stuck into the crystal meth for a few weeks.
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68. ChrisArta
"...20 February 2005..."
Thank you. And when did the UK hold their referendum?
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71. democracythreat
[quoting Thomas814827] "It is an unhappy sign of the times that people are judged on looks and appeal rather than on substance. I saw that the Daily mail referred to Mr. Van Rompuy as a clown."
In the 2001 GE Hague's head was portrayed in The Mirror sat upon Bridget Jones' body in a fetching mini skirt.
Grown up politics – who needs it?
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Did Britain pursue the wrong priority? [#36 and #66]
Gordon Brown accused of taking 'wrong' EU job
Despite pressure from the Treasury to seek an economic portfolio in the new European Commission, Mr Brown decided to accept an offer from the Party of European Socialists bloc for a Briton to take the foreign policy job.
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democracythreat @71. oj. You have a point.
One would think, though, that the looks were the least that bothered the euro-camp. It's good all managed to agree in decent time, while the rest of the world was watching - already a plus :o).
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1. At 11:41pm on 19 Nov 2009, Freeborn-John wrote:
"But if, as seems likely, the UK renegotiates power back from the EU in the next 5 years then it is Van Rumpoy that will be on the other side of the negotiating table."
Ha ha ha! Do you still believe what Cameron says, after the latest U-turn. Dave must be laughing, at the naivety of the British electorate, that will crown him in 6 months time.
Of course, the renegotiating and power back will all be gone by then. The only way Britain can win power back (whatever that means) is to split entirely from the EU. But this amounts to economical (and political) suicide, because the UK is not Switzerland nor Norway and cannot afford to "just follow" what the EU dictates.
So just in case you wanted to live in a country that has won power back from Europe you should maybe immigrate to Canada, the USA, Australia or New Zealand which have all won their power back from Europe. And if you know Portuguese/Spanish you can try Latin America.
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