Still more questions than answers
Influenza viruses have been causing sickness for thousands of years so it may seem curious that there is still a huge amount that we don't understand about them.
This applies especially to H1N1 swine flu which, admittedly, has only been circulating in humans for a matter of months.
A series of research projects in the UK have been announced which will examine every aspect of the swine flu virus - in pig and human populations, and in hospital intensive care units.
£7.5 million pounds of funding has been given by the Medical Research Council (MRC), Wellcome Trust, and Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council (BBSRC) along with some government support.
The research will aim to answer many of the questions which commenters on this blog have raised, and more besides:
• Why do some people and not others become seriously ill with swine flu?
• What proportion of people who are infected have no symptoms (what's known as asymptomatic)?
• If you are asymptomatic, can you still spread flu?
• How useful are antivirals?
• How effective is the vaccine?
• How does H1N1 swine flu behave in pigs?
• Is there a risk that the virus could evolve into a more virulent form in pigs?
• Is there a need for a vaccine for pigs to slow the spread of the virus?
Fluwatch
A study led by Dr Andrew Hayward of University College London, which will follow up to 10,000 people and look at the duration and severity of symptoms, their access to treatment, use of antivirals and uptake of the vaccine.
We should not have to wait long for results. Dr Hayward said he hoped to release initial data before Christmas.
This study should help scientists work out what proportion of the population has had swine flu. This is crucial because at present we have only tenuous estimates from the Health Protection Agency which are subject to a huge margin of error.
Last week's estimated cumulative number of cases was 620,000 in England (with a range from 289,000 to 1,278,000).
The reason we don't have a clear idea of how many people are infected is because the majority of those who get flu, never go anywhere near the health service and only the sickest patients get tested for the virus.
If we knew what proportion had no symptoms or recovered without bothering their doctor, it would help us understand how quickly we may get through this pandemic.
It will also look at how effective antivirals have been in treating flu - a hot topic for months. Some have criticised the policy here of offering Tamiflu to anyone who says they have flu-like symptoms.
Dr Fred Hayden from the Wellcome Trust (Professor of Medicine at the University of Virginia) pointed to a study in the New England Journal of Medicine last month. This looked at nearly 300 patients admitted to hospital in the United States.
Dr Hayden said:
"[F]or those admitted to hospital, the average time they waited before getting antivirals was three days, for those admitted to intensive care it was six days and for those who died it was eight days."
He said that early treatment, even in uncomplicated seasonal flu, could reduce the risk of complications.
The Mechanisms of Severe Acute Influenza Consortium (MOSAIC)
Thankfully the principal investigator, Professor Peter Openshaw from Imperial College London, came up with the snappy acronym MOSAIC.
A team of scientists from England and Scotland will look at up to 500 people hospitalised with flu during the pandemic and try to find out what factors contributed to the severity of their disease.
For example, was there something about their genetic make-up which made them more susceptible to the virus, or was it due to variations in the virus itself?
They'll be taking around 40 samples from each volunteer and doing extensive virology and bacterial work in several UK labs.
This study will take about a year to complete and, like the others, could yield useful information for future pandemics.
Combating Swine Influenza (COSI) Initiative
There are two studies here looking at the evolution and spread of pandemic H1N1 virus in pigs and how to develop ways to slow the spread of the virus in animals and humans.
The research will be led by Professor James Wood at the University of Cambridge and Professor Ian Brown at the Veterinary Laboratories agency at Weybridge.
Professor Wood said that for the last 10 years scientists had concentrated more on avian influenza and there was a lack of detailed surveillance in pigs.
"It's important we understand the evolution of the H1N1 pandemic" he said. "We need to look at where it came from and how it's evolving. It's possible that it may take a different evolutionary course in pigs and pose a different threat to humans."
He pointed out that farmers had passed the H1N1 pandemic virus to pigs in Argentina, Australia, the USA and Canada.
One issue that has been puzzling me is why the pandemic virus is currently so stable. We are always told that RNA viruses like flu have a high mutation rate. It's why people need a flu jab each autumn.
Professor Wendy Barclay, virologist at Imperial College London said there was genuine uncertainty about the H1N1 swine flu virus: "We don't know why it's so stable" she said.
Nonetheless, she had a theory:
"It currently has a huge number of hosts (people) to infect and so has no pressure to mutate. But as more people develop immunity it will have to work a lot harder and so we will expect to see drift (mutations) which might be accompanied by changes in its virulence."
That might of course mean that swine flu has a sting in its tail. "Pandemic, what pandemic?" has been the refrain from some journalistic colleagues recently. And it's true that the first pandemic of the 21st Century is a viral pushover for the vast majority of us.
But for a small minority it is a serious threat, hospitalising hundreds of Britons each week, a good proportion of whom have no underlying health problems.
The sooner we know why flu is able to breech the defences of some people and not others, the sooner we might be able to develop better ways to beat the virus.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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Glad to see they are investigating more about this virus. I will be very interested to see the results.
Back home, I'm wondering if the Welsh reports of possible peaking are going to be reflected across the whole of the UK in Liam Donaldson's report later today:
http://www.teletext.co.uk/regionalnews/wales/b28413d31782a3d608d11cb48fdd2d64/Fresh+warning+over+swine+flu.aspx
Also mentions a possible third wave which I also read & posted about the other day.
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Okay, so what we could see is that if herd immunity is reached then sf will have to mutate into something more virulent in order to survive? I don't like the sound of that.
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My questions are these:
1.If the H1N1 virus is less severe than seasonal 'flu, why the rush for mass vaccination, because if it were to mutate to a more serious form the present vaccine wouldn't be any good anyway?
2.Why has the WHO changed the definition of a pandemic to omit the part including serious illness and simply include any disease that has spread to many countries (which gives them more powers over how to deal with said pandemic and could lead to obligatory vaccination)?
3. Why have the drug companies been granted immunity from any claim for harm - even death - resulting from vaccination?
4. Why haven't the media said more about the possible problems associated with the vaccine, such as some of the ingredients: mercury, squalene, certain adjuvents used in increased amounts which have not been tried before . . . . ?
5. Many people are concerned about the possible side effects. Why aren't we given more honest information?
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This research could be extremely useful Fergus. Not only in this SF pandemic, but also for seasonal flu and other more nasty strains. In the long term it could be instrumental in saving thousands of lives not to mention money. How marvellous to be able to identify the reasons for people getting sickest BEFORE they get sick, rather than having to assess statistics and trends of severe illness and death. That way a country need only purchase enough vaccine for those who really need it plus a bit in reserve.
The only losers from this will be the pharmaceutical companies!
Fantastic news Fergus. My only worry is that these scientists have enough funding to complete their research. Imagine a simple blood test to assess the need for annual vaccination. Absolutely amazing stuff-can't wait for the results!
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In the event of a shortage of HiN1 vaccine it would seem possible that the spouses/partners of immunocompromised persons might be placed at the end of the priority list and I wonder whether there is any justification for such a decision?
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I also await with interest Sir Liam's statement today. I'm hoping that he will say something about the poor availability of vaccine to GP's. Some info about when more will be sent out would be good. As my surgery only got theirs this week, it could be Christmas time before they get anymore. IMHO these lengthy delays are not acceptable.
Would it be possible for you to look into this Fergus? Especially as it seems surgeries have devised their own strategies for vaccinating the first priority groups? Such a small amount of vaccine has been delivered, these surgeries have no choice but to prioritise the first priority group! Anyone vaccinated at my surgery next week may not develop immunity for 3 weeks, so they won't be safe until the middle of December. If additional suppliesa re not received until December, I really don't think enough people will be vaccinated in time. It is conceivable that many that need the vaccination won't get it before the flu season is over!
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The answer to most of these questions ARE known but the explanation is fairly complex immunology. When a flu virus 'mutates' only small parts of it change. Most of the virus stays pretty much the same. One of these parts that rarely changes is a large part of the H1N1 protein that is recognised by people with HLA-A2 tissue (which includes me rather fortunately). This probably explains why I haven't had influenza for 20 years.
This leads me onto Cloe-in-France's post #3 which is a remarkable bit of scare mongering:
'Mutation' is a great word for causing terror but the majority of mutations are harmful to whatever has mutated. If human DNA mutates you have a much, much better chance of getting cancer than you do of getting any positive benefit. Its the same with flu. Most mutations will harm the flu viruses ability to reproduce not increase its deadlyness. We might get unlucky any end up with a mutated version that does avoid the vaccine but we probably won't. Because humans all have different tissue types and recognise different parts of the virus when making an immune respone any mutation will likely only render the vaccine ineffective in a small proportion of the population.
The drug companies have not been rendered immune from prosecution if there are any deaths from the vaccine. Rather like foodstuffs containing peanuts it is likely that a tiny number of people WILL react badly to the vaccine but the vaccine has been fully tested to international standards and is a safe as it can be made. Please remember that penicillin will cause side effects in 10% of people who take it and anaphalxis in 0.01%. Despite this penicillin has saved millions of lives. Likewise 8 paracetamol taken at once has been known to kill yet that can be bought by kids from supermarket shelves. The only medicine that is 100.0000% safe is a placebo.
There is no mercury in flu vaccine. Nor is there mercury in MMR despite the silly claims a few years back. Squalene is an organic oil (basically the same as shark or whale liver oil) used in moisterisers, cosmetics etc. Less than 10mg are used in the flu vaccine and this level has been tested in many, many animals and humans before being licensed. 22 million people have been given vaccines containing 10mg squalene with no reported ill effects from the squalene.
It is absolutely illegal to give untried or increased concentrations of drug to patients. The delay in getting the vaccines out is caused by the multiple safety tests they all have to go through.
I would be suprised if a few people given the vaccine DIDN'T die or suffer ill effects from it but these will be a fraction of the number who will die if they weren't vaccinated. Its rather like car airbags or seatbelts. Some fatalities are caused by airbags and belts but not using one puts you at far greater risk than using one so logically there is no reason not to buckle up.
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#6 anyone vaccinated at your surgery WILL NOT develop immunity for 3 weeks. I can absolutely guarantee it.
My company made a prototype swine flu vaccine in under 4 weeks as a proof of principle excercise but you won't be seeing it in your GP's because it will be legally required to go through nearly a year of clinical trials & safety tests. The problem is that your posts #4 & #6 show you want to have your cake and eat it. You want huge quantities of vaccine to be instantly available but you want it to be safe and tested. You can't have both.
Incidentally re #4. The only WINNERS will be the pharmaceutical companies. There's not much profit in growing flu vaccine in eggs. Little diagnostic kits on the other hand are dirt cheap to make, require far less testing (as they're not drugs) and be sold at a nice profit. Look at what those pregnancy test kits cost. There's about £1 worth of diagnostic in each one.
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Peter, this is possibly the most balanced and sensible comment I have read anywhere on this blog. One of the things that has concerned me during my occasional visits is the amount of utter nonsense masquerading as science. As an aside, a friend of mine posted an entry on their Facebook page this morning stating that swine flu does not exist and that the vaccination programme is in fact a government conspiracy to lower life expectancy. I promise I am not making this up....
Do you (or anyone else?) have any view regarding the length of time it takes after the vaccination to develop good immunity. Tigerjayj's post #6 suggests three weeks, but in my view for all but perhaps a tiny minority that is far in excess of the actual time it will take. I understand that the majority of people will have good protection within a week to ten days. I also assume that it is not a case of going from no protection to good protection, but that some immunity is conferred relatively quickly and it builds gradually over that time. I seem to remember Liam Donaldson once saying that vaccination provides immunity "almost instantly", although I cannot now find any reference to that particular quote.
By the way, I had the vaccination this morning and am pleased to report thus far no side-effects whatsoever, not even an aching arm (which I always get with the seasonal flu vaccine).
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I had the swine flu a couple of weeks ago. I phoned the NHS flu line, had a short interview, got the Tamiflu and that was it. NHS didn't follow up on the development of my symptoms and eventual cure. I think there is a missed opportunity here. My suggestion is that NHS gives a form to be completed by each person who contacted them and had symptoms of swine flu. This way they could have valuable research material and an insight on how the virus affects each individual. I am sure everybody affected would be pleased to help filling up a form every day, giving details such as symptoms, how the Tamiflu helped or not, number of days until recovery, etc.
I haven't found out yet if whoever had the flu is 100% immune to it (as long as the virus doesn't mutate)?
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#9 Thanks! The problem is that what you're taught in school about vaccination (that you boil the flu to make it dead and your immune system recognised bits of boiled up flu and makes antibodies) is so simplistic as to be untrue. You'll generate some antibodies to whatever you're vaccinated with quite quickly (which will help lessen any flu) but to generate a good long lasting immunity will take three weeks. This is why you're advise to get any travel jabs well before you travel.
I work on cancer vaccines rather than viruses (although our technology will work for both but its too expensive and complex to be viable for mass immunisation) and with those we're looking at 4 injections every three weeks to build up the sort of response needed to tackle a tumour.
You're lucky not to get the sore arm... mine swells up like a balloon! Its not usually the vaccine itself that causes the sore arm but the adjuvant added to it. For some reason not entirely understood you need to create a bit of inflammation at the injection site for the vaccine to work effectively. Thats what the adjuvant #3 refers to does. A little aluminium salt or organic oil works great. There's nothing sinister about the adjuvant but if we understood exactly how it worked we might be able to refine it and make it a little more safe and a little less painful.
You can spot a pseudo-scientist quite easily because they make big claims. Us real ones admit that sometimes the therapy kills people but I'm happy to have my jabs because the chance of dying from the vaccine is a fraction of the risk of getting (and dying) from hepatitis or tetnus in the lab. Its a case of balanced risk and when you weigh up the odds there's no sense in avoiding the vaccine and risking the disease.
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Peter..
Thanks for the info on everything, but I would love to know all the ingredients in the vaccine before I make a decision on it.
AND.
Getting the vaccine this year, means I would need it again next year as like "normal" flu, it changes right?
I don't actually live in the UK, but where I am at the moment they are starting to vaccinate everyone, even people not on the priority list, which I think is really weird. If they are trying to wipe out Swine flu, why aren't they trying to wipe out "normal" flu too? as it seems that both are killing people?
Also if Pandemrix isn't killing people, then why have 5 people died in Sweden from the jab?
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#12. Firstly 5 people in Sweden have died after getting the jab. Thats not the same thing. I'd suggest you look at the 'girl dies after getting cervical cancer story' or the MMR nonsense before jumping to conclusions. Secondly I never said that the vaccine is 100% safe... quite the opposite. What I said is that the chance of dying from swine flu is far higher than dying from the vaccine. Balanced risk.
Most importantly of all if you go to the GSK website:
http://health.gsk.com/docs/UK_Pandemrix_PIL.pdf
The makers list all the ingredients and possible side effects clearly and simply. They even say there's a very rare chance of total paralysis. Its not much of a cover up is it!
All the ingredients are on page 3 of the PDF. The question is whether words like 'polysorbate 80' or 'potassium dihydrogen phosphate' mean anything to most people. Lets face it the media have spread the idea that 'chemical' = 'poison' and most people don't realise that every molecule in the universe is a chemical.
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I am 63 years of age have had 1 heart attack had a stent inserted , still have Atypical Angina , have Diabetes , sleep apnoenea and currently take Amtryptiline for allergies.....and yet....my GP has not called me in for a Tamiflu jab....should I be worried ...should I contact my GP....any answers much appreciated...???
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Ian - it's certainly worth calling your GP - see where you stand. My Hubby is due to be called, my friend who works at the same docs tells me they are calling people up, my Hubby is still undecided whether to have it & needs more info so we haven't chased them. My friend said if he's on the list & calls in before they get to him, they will give him an appointment for the jab.
So I'd call yours up & see if i were you.
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#14. Phone your own GP. He knows your full personal medical history better than anyone (or he damn well should anyway....) If you normally get the seasonal flu jab you should probably be getting the swine flu one.
If you SHOULD be getting the vaccine the reason you haven't is probably because your GP doesn't have enough yet (or your appointment letter is stuck in a royal mail backlog) The normal annual flu jab is planned a year in advance so supplies are ready to go on time. Getting an extra vaccine to the clinic this quickly (and doing full clinical safety trials) is a truly staggering achievement that I don't think is appreciated.
Remember that the Tamiflu are the tablets given to lessen the symptoms of flu, not the vaccine to stop you getting the disease in the first place.
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Peter - thanks for that post. You seem to be a good person to ask. I'm generally pro vaccine but Hubby (who's an asthmatic & about to get "the call") has heard people mention squalene and gulf war syndrome in negative connotation. Can you shed any light on whether this theory was disproved? Many thanks.
Also it seems those who have this jab are only covered for a year, so even if we vaccinate our normally healthy kids, the virus could do the rounds next year (even in its current form) & infect them all anyway - is that correct? (I understand they are thinking of including it in next years flu jab for the at risk people so that isn't an issue)
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but surely giving pregnant women squalene when they are advised NOT to eat shark, swordfish, merlin etc, is all conflicting information?
Great link, and thank you for that! I take it you work in GSK?
Will be watching this board for more info, as we are all a bit behind in the Netherlands!
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I get the feeling (like a lot of others) that the WHO were almost desperate to anonunce this pandemic. After the last 'imanent pandemic' of Bird Flu that was also supposed to kill millions, this also appears to be another 'normal' epidemic in which billions was given to drug companies to develop an antidote. Remember how we were held to ransome by those companies for a antidote? Having worked as a reserch technician at a leading UK university I wonder just how many sientists are NOT in the pocket of the drug companys? Few if any is the answer as most if not all of them rely on reserch money to maintain their departments.
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#17 Thanks for the compliment! The problem with 'squalene and gulf war being disproved' is that its impossible to prove a negative. If you think about Gulf War syndrome its been blamed on burning Iraqi chemical weapons, the NAPS tablets taken by the troops to protect against chemical weapons, depleted uranium, burning oil wells.... basically everything that the troops could have encountered. Thats if you even believe there's any specific 'gulf war syndrome' at all.... similar health concerns were reported in Union soldiers going home after the US civil war.
I can't give any 100% answers but I'm from a military family and did a few months in croatia in 1996 so I've been exposed to depleted uranium, I'm full of vaccines, I've got a couple of mercury fillings and I'm in great health. However I like Snickers bars too and those can be fatal if you have a peanut allergy so some people may react badly to substances that are totally safe for most of us. Its why GSK list the odds of side effects on the leaflet with the vaccine.
Regarding 'do you need the vaccine every year' again (sorry!) the answer is maybe. It won't hurt to have a booster anyway as very few vaccines give life time protection although you may end up with a slightly sorer arm than normal.
Depending on your tissue type http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_leukocyte_antigen (the wiki article is good) depends on which part of the virus your immune system recognises. I'm HLA-A2 which is about the most common caucasian tissue type. I believe the reason I haven't had flu for 20 years is that there's a part of the virus that very rarely mutates so immunity to one strain should protect against several different forms of flu. (I'll look a right idiot if I get swine flu though!)
Its in part an evolutionary advantage the human race has... its highly unlikely a viral strain can evolve that will kill all of us so by having many different tissue types we increase the odds that a few of us will survive no matter what weird virus infects us. The downside is that some of us will be very resistant to flu and others will suffer quite badly and until you know what strain you're dealing with you can't start making guesses.
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# 18. No. I work for a tiny biotech company with just 5 employees. We've got no commericial products available at present but we do a lot of R&D and vaccine development.
The advice about not eating fish if pregnant is because of heavy metal contamination in the fish not the squalene.... god knows what your fish has picked up swiming around the Irish sea. There are mercury atoms in the thiomesorol preservative but thats quite different from metallic mercury or some of the nastier organic compounds and should be quite safe.
To explain this really simply take table salt: white powder, basically non toxic and essential for life, but its made of sodium (a metal that explodes in water) and chlorine (a poisonous gas used in WW1). Likewise mineral water.... essential for life but made up of an explosive mix of oxygen & hydrogen. Atoms in compounds behave totally differently from their natural state and everything in the vaccine has been tested both on its own and together to the highest international standard. People like Huntingdon Life Sciences will put 100x the dose used in the clinic into animals and even at 100X the dose no ill effect must be seen. Its not an absolute guarantee but I trust it and my wife has had both the seasonal & swine flu vaccine with my blessing (she's asmatic and works in a hospital)
Again its balanced risk - pregnant women seem far more likely to die from swine flu than any other group and that offsets the risk of the vaccine more than for the rest of us.
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Re posts 12 and 13, everything in the media should be looked at with a highly critical eye... amazing how easily people read "5 people die after having the vaccine" as "5 people die from having the vaccine". The way in which the media jumped to conclusions about the girl who tragically died shortly after having the cervical cancer vaccine was a disgraceful piece of reporting.
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I think that PDF document has really helped make up my mind. Thanks again.
Apart from 10.69mg of Squalene... (seems like alot, espicall for a pregnant woman, or half it, for a child)
it also has Thiomersal....
Thiomersal is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. When applied to human nerve cells it changes cell membrane permeability and induces programmed cell death.[8] It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in ... Read moreaquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N).[9] In the body, it is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.
Yeah, so I am going to put this in my body am I?
it also has Potassium chloride...
Potassium chloride is used as the third of a three -drug combination in lethal injection. Additionally, KCl is used (albeit rarely) in fetal intracardiac injections in second- and third-trimester induced abortions.
Side effects... what happends if you are in the "rare" or Very Rare Catagory?
Very rare
• Vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels which can cause skin
rashes, joint pain and kidney problems)
• Neurological disorders such as encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the
central nervous system), neuritis (inflammation of nerves) and a type of
paralysis known a Guillain-Barré Syndrome
Rare
• Allergic reactions leading to a dangerous decrease of blood pressure,
which, if untreated, may lead to shock. Doctors are aware of this
possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases.
• Fits
• Severe stabbing or throbbing pain along one or more nerves
• Low blood platelet count which can result in bleeding or bruising
I think there is two ways to look at it... you either have your own mind set, and it can't be changed... me... or you think to yourself, do I risk the Jab and be sure that I won't get it... we aren't sure it works yet though are we?
Some people look for the good in the jab, some people don't like to get ill, which is why they are getting it.
Some people would rather "risk" getting ill and building up their own immunities to the flu.... hmm.
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evadanit - I still haven't made my mind up about the vaccine either but we have to be careful to out the risks in perspective because even food has side effects & can be toxic in the wrong quantities.
Only the other day a lady died from getting drunk from drinking too much water for a stunt.
Did you know nutmeg is also toxic in surprisingly small quantities (something like just 1 tsp!)
We are told in last years report we should not eat red meat at all, and especially NO bacon or ham & other foods with nitrates in them. If we follow every warning about every food we wouldn't eat anything.
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My Hubby just got the call from our doctors left as a voice message - he has to call them back with his decision.
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Peter, I wondered if you could help me please with a question?
My daughter (who is 5 and has asthma) has just been invited in for a swin flu jab. Her appt is next week. However the surgery letter said they can also give her the seasonal flu jab at the same time (which she has every year anyway). I think this is possibly too much for her system in one go?
I'm 4 months pregnant and apparently in the "second wave" of vaccinations. The surgery have no idea when more vaccines may arrive. But we are going away for 3 weeks over Xmas & New Year, so I am hoping it will be before then.
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Quite an interesting (& reassuring) link I found from Canada re the vaccine who are using the same vaccine as us:
http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091103/mtl_vaccine_faq_090725/20091103/?hub=MontrealHome
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For those who are trying to decide whether to have the Pandemrix vaccine (particularly, as in the case of my wife, pregnant women), the following information may be useful:
News article appearing in the British Medical Journal:
http://bmjcom.highwire.org/cgi/content/full/339/oct19_2/b4291
Letter and information sheet from the head of immunisation:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Summary of a 2007 research article detailing that there is no causal link between the use of Thimerosal in vaccines and neoro-psychological effects in children:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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It's interesting to read other views but I'm still not convinced the vaccine is a safe bet. There are many NHS staff who are reluctant to take it and here, in France, one of the nurses' unions has sent a letter to its members warning them that it may not be safe. That's enough to turn on warning lights for me.
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Just a bit, eva? We're still in the 'flu, flu, panic, panic' stage, judging from the media's response. ;-)
I really like those article titles - "5 people die after flu vaccine". It says a lot, and, at the same time, you don't get any relevant information at all, such as age and at least a mention of whether there was or was no medical history, or even duration between vaccination and death.
Luckily, there is such a thing as the internet and Google. And a search leads me to http://www.thelocal.se/22846/20091024/ where the third and fourth death are reported. Let me just copy/paste the relevant paragraphs:
"A 74-year-old woman from Sollefteå in northern Sweden died four days after receiving the swine flu vaccine.
"A further case of a 90-year-old woman who also died after receiving the vaccine has been reported by newspaper Expressen.
"Läkemedelsverket are currently investigating circumstances surrounding the deaths of two high-risk patients, a 50-year-old man with a serious heart condition and woman with an acute muscle disease."
The bad part about this search his that, for me (could be Google memory...), this came up after Prisonplanet and after Jane Burgermeister's site, as well as a few blogs. (I googled Sweden Flu vaccine five died, for the record, without "".) So this hits the main news and people go to Google and find all sorts of sites, information overload follows and presto. Fear in a jiffy, just add websites, complete with the use of the words 'logic' and 'logical' in some cases. And since most people still delude themselves by claiming that humans (and they themselves) are rational beings when they are confronted by an emotion which is just about the antithesis of rational thinking, the story takes hold and they spread the 'truth' as they see it, proclaiming rationality, but operating from fear.
Or that's the way I see it anyway. The usual disclaimers (my opinion, don't intend to offend anyone) apply.
Back to the story itself: Sweden was (is?) vaccinating the high risk groups. I'll sound callous here, but the deaths of the 74yo and the 90yo are not really surprising, considering women aged as such die every day of plain and simple old age. But no, causation needs to imply correlation, so they died from the vaccine. Let the lords of cha.. illogic rule.
And now to Fergus's article: the view that the flu isn't mutating because of a large reservoir of potential hosts is an interesting one - usually you hear (and I'm guilty of that myself) that the bigger the reservoir, the more likely a mutation will be. Very interesting and also one that's fairly hard to research quickly, if at all. The results should be interesting, but they're likely going to be published after the SF has already vanished from the public's mind, unfortunately.
Also: I love the snappy acronyms. Mosaic? Cosi? You'd think they'd have a team set up for that. I can already see this happening:
"Gee Brain, whatcha wanna do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night Pinky! Invent snappy acronyms!"
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Update from the Ukraine, an interesting one :
http://mignews.com.ua/en/categ342/articles/378527.html
It seems new types on Influenze are co-circulating with the A/H1N1.
Link is in English, no need for a translator.
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In response to #23 - potassium chloride is also used as a substitute for normal sodium salt to spread on your food. Ingestion of several grams of it on your food will have no discernible impact on your health.
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Re post 30
I am 75, being treated with Enbrel (an ant tnf alpha drug) for RA and have been invited for the H1N1 shot. Will I take it? Maybe.
On the question of mutation. My view is that the larger the pool of viruses, the more probable is a mutation, but selection pressure must also be considered. Unless there is an appropriate selection pressure, the probability of a particular mutation dominating and eliminating others might depend more on its lack of virulence than otherwise. A parasite that kills a majority of its hosts quickly stands less chance of surviving over long periods than one which allows a large population of host animals to survive.
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Peter - thanks for your info - couple of points though.......
I don't want to have may cake and eat it as you say. My issues are with the government saying we will be receiving enough vaccine for 30 million doses in August I think it was, then September and finally late October. They gave the impression that there would be enough vaccine distributed to cover all the priority 'first wave' people.
Also, I have asthma and other conditions. I will be receiving the SF vaccine from my London specialist because of my immune system difficulties. I had to make an appointment with my GP and out of curiosity I asked about the SF vaccine. They had only just received theirs and were only vaccinating chronic asthmatics (of which I am one) who had already called in and expressed a concern. This surgery did not have me listed as asthmatic, and neither was I on the list they have compiled for vaccination. I think this surgery's approach is ludicrous as noone else in the first priority group is being vaccinated which excludes a great many people.
Vaccine being safe and tested - I am naive enough to assume that this has already been done before it gets to me - but again, this information should have been given to the general public at the same time as confirmation of the delivery of the vaccine. I seem to recall that testing was being done in plenty of time.
I am no doctor, just a sick person who battles every day to have a life - I think you were being somewhat rude to me in your post amd I don't think that comment was necessary.
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Re: The Ukraine sage -- H2N2? What the... Here I was, thinking that H2N2 shifted into H3N2 back in the 1968 epidemic. Of course, it's just one link, but one that merits close attention (and is going to put oil on the fire of a few...).
Peter (#33, and this is going to get confusing with a Peter and a Peter_Sym), that's true as well. Point taken. :-)
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There are several of us on this site who would have happily paid for a testing kit like a pregnancy testing kit to check whether we had SF or not, but for some reason these haven't been produced. I have heard that mouth/throat swabs are not reliable in diagnosis, so maybe a finger prick one or something would be more accurate?
I also remember reading from Skyline that as this virus is so good at infecting people that it is unlikely to mutate to a more serious form. In fact, there have been mutations where SF became even milder, but these have died out.
Can anyone really predict with a high degree of certainty what will happen in future years to this virus? Virologists and scientists are incredibly clever (although some do seem rather arrogant at times!!!) and with the continuous technological advances I'm sure that if anyone can make a decent prediction they will be able to!
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Questionsaplenty2
I am pretty perticular about what I eat too. Am scrutenrous with E numbers, and pay the extra bit to go organic and make from scratch. I am sensitive to Aspartame, MSG gives me a rash and E211 should be taken off the market.
Unfortunatly the Swedish diet is high in meat, which means alot of E211 (Sodium benzoate)and other crap. So their Lymphatic system (the body's drainage system) is constantly getting rid of this crap. They then get injected with more crap and it goes into overdrive.
not to mention the amount of coffee too!
(I like the word crap)
Tigerjayj
Swine Flu has been around before, and it cooled down, people were probably catching it and just thinking it was normal flu. Because it is now more diagnosible and there is far more media coverage than there was in the 70s (it was the 70's right? only my pregnant brain doesn't seem to be working at the moment) It seems to be scaring alot of people.
The majority of people that are getting the jabs are the Americans, who seem to be a little scared of sneezing at the moment. They vaccinate against chicken pox over there, aswell as giving the flu jab to "non priority" people too, so they are all for it, and telling the rest of the World that it is ok. When frankly, nobody knows!
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It would be interesting to know how many people die of ordinary flu each year, wouldn't it? This is something that I'm not aware of anyone's bringing into the equation.
Tamiflu was supposed to reduce the duration of swine flu for most sufferers from 6 days to 5 (or was it 7 days to 6?). I've had seasonal flu 3 times in my 60 years. Each time, I've been really ill for more than 2 weeks, more or less up and about after 3, pretty much back to normal after 4, and on one occasion the after-effects (a Nasty Pain under my ribs) lasted months. Family members and friends who've suffered seasonal flu confirm my general experience. It's unpleasant; it passes. Compared to that, less than a week seems pretty tame.
Whatever the merits or demerits of any vaccine, the sure-fire winners will be the drug companies, as usual; but I do wonder about the wisdom of mass vaccination programmes. Any such catch-all programme will bring out the deaths of anyone vulnerable to the vaccine, who might never have caught the virus at all.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
alphaterraprophetess
Tamiflu is used to increase the body's immune system. When you are pregnant, your immune system is low so you don't abort the baby. It actually states on the Tamiflu website that it isn't reccomended for pregnant women, yet they are still being given this!?
It seems we do anything nowadays to avoid getting ill... we even take paracetamol for a cold! (well, I personally don't but alot of people do!)
Drs seem to be very willing to give out Antibiotics for a very simple upper resparitory infection, or something else mild. Sterioids are being given out too. This is all having an impact on how we fight off illness on our own.
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Results from Scotland this week just come out...seem to be the opposite of the Welsh situation:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5i3Fi9VRfRuu0fjcxCAXdyn1KNZtw
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What it doesn't say is whether the rate of increase is still dropping. Wish they'd hurry up with the national report this week!
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OK tis out
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1257260447471
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NOw that IS better news!!!!!
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Skyline please come back & give us a positive boost - there are far too many scare stories around on this thread at the moment. I miss your logic!
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Questionsaplenty2
sorry if I am scaring you...
I look scary too! RAAAR!
unfortunatly, it's the truth!
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I disagree, too many arguments and insults generated from this Skyline character, glad he's done a runner.
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For anyone who hasn't clicked on the link I posted, this weeks figures show a significant DROP in the number of GP consultations this week. This follows 2 weeks where the increase in numbers were starting to slow. I know it was half-term week but the first of these three weeks was certinly not affected by half term. I do find this quite positive news!
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Beau carrel: it has taken you a YEAR to compile a book on treating 'flu homeopathically?
My homeopath has all the information at her fingertips and could write a book in a matter of hours.
I looked at your site out of curiosity but am always wary of buying anything when the price isn't mentioned until the last click so I still don't know how much you are asking.
However, as far as I am concerned homeopathy is very effective in combatting 'flu but I think a face to face consultation with a reputable practitioner is advisable.
to take into account individual circumstances
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Well, I will disagree with you, Scotsman. Firstly, Skyline actually knows what he's talking about, rather than just posting links that he thinks might be exciting. Secondly, he seems to think it is his place to reassure people based on his knowledge and that of people he knows instead of getting a kick out of breaking 'bad news' by way of an ego boost. Thirdly, I doubt very much that he's done a runner.
Peter_Sym, thank you for your explanation about 'mutation', I'd read the quote from the doctor or professor or whoever this morning about mutation being 'likely' and then spent a miserable morning worrying, then read your post and felt so much better. I'd forgotten the lesson I'd learned ealier in this pandemic: that 'experts' like to considre the worst possible putcomes and then tell everyone about it, and that they like to repeat facts and possibilities that they find qwuite interesting but that freak us mere mortals out completely. So thank you.
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LOL eva - no you didn't scare me LOL...just skyline usually pulls me back onto the path of logic when I hear the frightening stuff people post about the Ukraine etc...
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Homoeopathy has an excellent record as an effective, cheap, safe form of medicine against all forms of Influenza. It can be practised safely by anyone.
Anyone wanting further details can view this site
www.homoeopathicflu.com
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Peter-sym - I also meant to say thank you for you nice sensible answer in post 20 and the information you provided. :)
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Questionsaplenty2
don't let yourself get freaked out by it. Just make a decision and stick to it, then wait for the outcome...
Whether it be that you have got Swine flu and waiting for it to pass, or if you got the jab and waiting for the side effects of the ingredients coming out of your body from a 14 - 18 day half life!
;)
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angels - I think there is also the element that if the experts don't "warn" us of the worst case scenarios, they worry about being sued these days if it were to happen!
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I apologise if some people think I was scaremongering. Basically I was only asking why so much fuss is being made about a relatively mild strain of 'flu (in the majority of cases) and why billions of pounds are being spent on (in my humble opinion) an unnecessary vaccine. The people using scare tactics are the ones trying to persuade you to take it when the risks are probably greater than the virus itself! It's up to each of us to make an informed decision but I do understand why pregnant ladies and mothers are worried at this time.
If it's any help, swine 'flu seems to be less severe than seasonal 'flu. People don't normally get worked up about 'flu do they? It's the WHO and their hype about a pandemic that's causing everyone to panic. Maybe they just don't want to look foolish after bringing about an expensive vaccine that lots of people don't want - or need.
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#50 You rely on the farce that is Skyline for some sort of personal comfort, 80% of the things he rudely comes up with are not fact but merely opinion and yet he can NEVER be wrong to a minority on this blog.
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Done a runner... Get over yourself kid.
Who's been right about everything thus far? I dont lie. I post facts. You post articles that a week later are debunked as myth but you never follow up on that do you son? Thought not.
Pathetic.
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Questionsaplenty2 thanks for the reply....my wife , who is in the " business " so to speak , rang the surgery at lunchtime. Their reply
" We havent received any vaccine yet ....your husband , if he is deemed a suitable candidate will be contacted via the media "
Lol...i'm not sure whether to laugh or cry....!!!
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Welcome back skyline :)
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Chloe - I wasn't referring to your comment as scarey - we are still trying to make a decision on vaccine in my family ourselves. :)
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, Chloe-in-france
Beau carrel: it has taken you a YEAR to compile a book on treating 'flu homeopathically?
My homeopath has all the information at her fingertips and could write a book in a matter of hours.
I looked at your site out of curiosity but am always wary of buying anything when the price isn't mentioned until the last click so I still don't know how much you are asking.
However, as far as I am concerned homeopathy is very effective in combatting 'flu but I think a face to face consultation with a reputable practitioner is advisable.
to take into account individual circumstances
Hi Chloe, I doubt anyone can provide what I have done in a matter of a few hours, one can in a matter of minutes find a suitable Homoeopathic remedy on the internet for free, but this books teaches you how to find a suitable remedy when the case is not so simple, yes I agree if you can afford a Homoeopaths fees then use one, I provide details of Homoeopaths and Pharmacies in the book.
There is no obligation to buy when you click on this page,
This book can help anyone anywhere, especially if you cannot get hold of a competent Homoeopath or afford one, this is why I produced it, it covers Naturpathy, and Biochemic tissue salts, and the subject of Coughs, colds, gastroenteritis, it provides an in-depth list of remedies and their keynotes, in short it can make a useful Homoeopath out of almost anyone and give them skills to help them selves and their families, during a serious epidemic this would prove to be of enormous help to society.
kind regards
Beau
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Ian - that is soo frustrating for you. Well after responding you my Hubby got a call today he has a choice of appointments if he wants to have it in either one or two weeks time so there doesn't seem to be much urgency.
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#58
Predictable childish response. I'm to supposed to follow up on things here? .. When all I get is abuse, no thanks.
back to your cave.
"Embarrassing"
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Hubby did his own research & we both independently came to the conclusion he should have it...so he's going to! I feel better about it that we both looked into it separately & came to the same conclusion. I am not one for conspiracy theories so was never worried about those aspects but I had to feel happy with the adjuvants. He's a non-serious asthmatic but travels a lot for work so it's the right thing I think for him. He normallly has the normal flu jab so will get any booster automatically next year when it's incorporated into a single vaccine.
Still not sure whether I'll let my healthy kids have it if it's offered. Not heard anything about that this week - perhaps they are waiting to see if the decline in cases continues next week. The thing with the healthy kids is it's a short term fix - if the jab only lasts a year then they won't be covered if it makes a come back next year unless a decision is made to vaccinate them all over again.
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eva - thanks - your post really helped. I know you have doubts about the vaccine but I appreciated the advice to make a decision & go with it. I am hopeless at decision making, but sometimes there is no right answer - you just have to take the plunge & live with it.
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Please take the time to draw attention to the crisis in Ukraine! The rate and severity of this flu pandemic is unlike anything we've seen with H1N1. It's appalling that a blog dedicated to this topic does not mention it at all.
I ask that all do your best to research this. Start with google and see how many results you get... interestingly very few come from the large news sources.
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Hello again Beau, I apologise for my rather abrupt and ill thought out comment. Thank you for your measured response. I'm lucky enough to have a good friend who is a homeopath and provides me with free advice (including a full and comprehensive initial consultation and follow ups when we meet). Remedies are available at our local chemist and, as you say, they are not expensive. I quite agree with you that this is a much safer and gentler way to deal with the 'flu so I hope more people will look into it.
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Hi Chloe-in-france
Thanks for your kind words, Anyone who buys the e-book is licensed to print off a couple of copies to give to those who cannot afford a copy, my motive for the book was to help those who have no one or where else to turn to, it does surprise me, why governments around the world do not teach their Doctors and nurses this form of safe healing.
keep well
Beau.
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I am right smack bang in the middle of a bug hit situation but I don't know if it is SF or one of the other bugs in circulation. Many are off sick with headache and stomach upset and some with flue like symptoms but no definite answers. Loads of people are coughing and looking ill. The hospital staff at a local hospital, on my bus route have been vaccinated against SF. Lots of children use the same bus.
Question
Can people vaccinated against SF excrete enough attenuated SF to infect others? Is the SF vaccine an attenuated virus? It appears that the sudden rise in illness coincides with the vaccination program but it could be just a coincidence and the bug that is keeping people home is not SF. I have been feeling ill since this afternoon with a severe headache and stomach upset but no cough or flu symptoms and I do feel better this evening as I am blogging this.
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It's my understanding sensibleoldgrannie that the SF vaccine is a dead vaccine and it is only live vaccines such as polio that can pass on the virus to other people through excretion. Even then it is through urine only I believe...and isn't a problem once gone through sewage system etc . When my kids were small I was told after they had the live polio vaccine, to keep them away from old people who might be unvaccinated for a few days.
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Sensibleoldgrannie (#70): As far as I know, most of the vaccines given are of the 'dead virus' variety, so there should be no infection from that direction. There are live-attenuated vaccines around, which are usually given in the form of a nasal spray, if I can believe the CDC website. Given that they wouldn't give this to immuno-compromised indivuals, however, I doubt (but am not certain!) that they'd give it to hospital workers, who are frequently around people with such problems. If there's any chance that a virus might spread in this way, in a hospital, I would think (and hope) that they used the inactivated vaccine.
Or am I entirely too happy-cloud-and-pink-unicorn in my thinking now?
Could be that you have that other kind of flu - the stomach variety. (I know it's made the rounds over here a few weeks ago.) Or just some bug - there are enough of those out there. Hope you feel better soon, though.
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To elaborate on my point, from a CDC .pdf:
"2009 H1N1 LAIV should not be given to the following groups.
[...]
anyone in close contact with a person with a severely weakened immune system (requiring care in a protected environment, such as a bone marrow transplant unit),"
I therefore stand partially corrected, since the part 'who can it be given to' does say that "[those] from 25 through 49 years of age and -live with or care for infants younger than 6 months of age, or -[those that are] are health care or emergency medical personnel" should (be able to) get it.
That having been said - Does the UK use those versions of the vaccine? (LAIV.) I can't find anything with a quick Google search, but as I'm not in the UK, perhaps I am going about it the wrong way.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/Pubs/vis/downloads/vis-laiv-h1n1.pdf is the CDC link, and here's to hoping that the link doesn't get removed... If not, it's the second hit when Googling live attenuated vaccine CDC without any " whatsoever.
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I have been deeply frustrated by the Government decision to end all swabbing, except in case of hospitalisation. Statistics on hospitalisations seem fairly meaningless when there is no way to know with any degree of accuracy how many people have had the virus. I understand why it is impossible to swab everyone with flu-like symptoms. Surely, however, it must be possible to carry out some random swabbing. During the week before half term, more than half of the children across two years at my children's school were off with flu symptoms (that's 60 children). My own children were ill, as was I. Yet not a single child was swabbed so no-one knows whether it was swine flu or not. Quite apart from the impact on individual families (making decisions about the vaccine would be far easier if we knew what we'd had), I cannot believe that it is cheaper to throw tamiflu at all those who are ill, and offer the vaccine to a reasonable number, than it would be to swab a sample of sick children. This would also have reduced the rate of infection: in my own family, we had the illness with varying degrees of severity. One child was only really unwell for three days. Since no-one knew whether it was swine flu, children were returning to school long before the suggested 7 day quarantine period. Now that I've had my rant, does anyone know if there is any other virus in circulation which brings relentlessly high fever and terrible cough for at least a week?
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I have a question for Peter-Sym vaccine guy - Is the squalene derived from fish? If so is the vaccine OK for people with fish allergy?
I am not one of the nutters, but I have one relative with fish allergy and another with egg allergy (both have had anaphylactic reactions)
And just out of curiosity how much hen egg is in the pandemrix & similar?
Also thanks for the explanations, the 'what you learn in school' bit was about my level of understanding, I am always glad to learn more.
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Aminti & sensible old grannie - the GSK vaccine and the Baxter vaccines in the UK are both dead vaccines. the nasal spray one I believe is being used in the uS - I'm not sure if that is live or not - it might be.
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Cureositea - take a look at this advice given to the Canadians over the Sf vaccine - it answers your questions and many more about the GSK vaccine:
http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091103/mtl_vaccine_faq_090725/20091103/?hub=MontrealHome
In short - yes it is fine for fish allergy sufferers
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Hi I had the GSK swine flu vaccine yesterday as I work in the health service. I feel O.K so far, just have a sore arm. Does anyone know how long after the jab people have had side effects?
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amy
The ingredients stay in your body for 14-18 days... That's on a "normal healhy" person...
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For those who think people take vaccination, because they don`t like being ill: As a mother I´m used to children being ill. Flus and stomach upsets aro not nice but that`s life. Swine flu though... is potentially fatal. I really want to do anything I can so that my children won`t die because of it! There are things you can do something about, and other things you can`t. I take vaccinations and fasten seat belts although I know a drunken driver can still cause a fatal accident. Of course we can nowadays here in the rich part of the world expect that most of our children dont`t die under 5 years old. Hundred years ago there were no vaccinations and for example tuberculosis could kill whole families. Life was more natural then but was it better?
Finlad is now vaccinating the high risk groups. First was medical staff, then pregnant ladies and now there are the chronically ill under 65 years old and healthy children under 3. At first many people said they wont`t take the vaccination, but then there was news about a healthy 8-year-old girl who died because of swine flu. Then people almost panicked and there have been long queues outside health centers. No-one gets invitation letters or phone calls. Vaccination times are told via local newspapers, radio and internet.
Our family has received vaccinations: we all got it because of my husbands immuno-supressive medication (Enbrel). But still have to wait 3 (or 2?) weeks until I can relax! I might keep our sons at home next week. Tomorrow they will be at home anyway, because as side-effect they have muscle pain. Does anyone know whether the muscle pain etc. mean that the vaccine is working? What about me then, I don`t have any pains!
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Here in the USA, last on the list for the H1N1 vaccine is the group 65 and older.(Their state of health is irrelevant is this prioritizing scheme.) The claimed rationale for this is they probably had the Asian Flu in 1957-58, which the authorities claim is similar to the present swine flu and thus may still have some protection against today's virus.
Naturally this brings up Sarah Palin's hysterical death panels claim as Social Security and Medicare kicks in for most Americans at age 65.
Two questions:
1- what evidence is there those who had the Asian flu over 40 years ago, still have some resistance to the present bug?
2- if indeed having had the Asian flu in 1957 does provide some immunity, why isn't the age group to be put last on the list...those who are over 52 or thereabouts instead of being reserved for over 65?
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I woke up at 5am with very sharp chest pains. I thought I was having a heart attack at first, until reason set in. The pain lasted for two and a half hours and has just gone off. I called out to my son who was in the next room (just in case I was in real trouble) My son said he had the same symptoms off and on all week, of sharp pain in the left side of the chest but WITHOUT the shooting pains going down the left arm or going through to the back. I think the pain is coming from the little muscles that hold your ribs together and it appears to be a symptom of this bug, which as yet I can't identify.
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I thought you should know that less than 72 hours after the vaccine programme started in France there is a case of Gillain Barré.
http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2009/11/12/grippe-un-cas-probable-de-syndrome-de-guillain-barre-apres-vaccination_1266533_3244.html
It is reported that there is no proof it is because of the vaccine. They say that there are cases of Gillain Barré which occur when there are viruses around anyway and they are going to have to investigate further before saying for sure whether it was caused by the vaccine. (However, a letter was sent to specialists in nervous illnesses telling them to watch out for an increase in cases of GB when the vaccination started.)
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Granny it sounds like you are a very poorly bunny. Maybe you should go to the doc today and get those pains checked? The weekend can be a long time when you are Ill and I don't know what your out of hours medical service is like. Chest pains always concern me-especially as women don't have as such clear signs of a heart attack as men do for some odd reason.
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In follow-up to my post #28, the important information for pregnant women being offered the Pandemrix vaccine in the UK, can be found at the following website:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Lettersandcirculars/Dearcolleagueletters/DH_107824
(This directs you to the Department of health website rather than the pdf file itself - the information can be found by following the appropriate link from that page).
Information concerning the use of Thimerosal in neo/post natal vaccines and its lack of effect later in life can be found in an article appearing in the "New England Journal of Medicine" with the reference:
N Engl J Med. 2007;357:1281-1292
I hope that this will help any pregnant women out there looking for some objective information to help them make an informed decision.
I would also like to add my thanks to Peter_sym for his earlier posts which also provided valuable objective information on this topic.
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Kirsti, I hear what you say, but using TB as an example is kind of proving the opposite. It's been on the up for years, and causing much concern. And there are other things to consider about the effect of vaccination on the population, apart from the short-term. I believe in years to come, many viruses will have mutated enough to get around the vaccines (it's already happening). You just cannot beat nature in the long-term. It's just a point I'm making. I don't condemn you for being pro the SF vaccine. Utterly your choice, and fair enough. It's just that nothing is as simple as you first believe, whatever anyone on here says. However, it's a personal decision, and not always an easy one.
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Grannie, we had a similar thing in our family recently. The chest pains were quite something. They were alarming at the time, but did go away. I do think you ought to take Tiger's advice, though, if you're unsure.
I hope you're still feeling better than you did, and that you can enjoy the weekend.
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Dave_oxon
great link, and yes I have made my decision. It's not to constantly put my trust into the government.
We rely too much on the government nowadays, and Drs too..
Let's face it. We ALL make mistakes, how do we know that this isn't another "mistake" that is waiting to happen?
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Here is a link to the NHS Swine Flu Vaccination Leaflet:
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2009/04April/Documents/SF-vaccination-leaflet.pdf which tells us the vaccinations used for adults are Pandemrix and Celvapan.
Concerning 'Pandemrix' the European Medicines Agency in 'What is the risk associated with Pandemrix?'states:'The most common side effects with Pandemrix(seen with more than 1 in 10 doses of the vaccine) are headache, arthralgia (joint pain), myalgia (muscle pain), reactions at the site of the injection (hardening, swelling, pain and redness), fever and fatigue (tiredness). For the full list of all side effects reported with Pandemrix, see the Package Leaflet.
Pandemrix should not be given to people who have had an anaphylactic reaction (severe allergic reaction) to any of the components of the vaccine, or to any of the substances found at very low levels in the vaccine, such as egg or chicken protein, ovalbumin (a protein in egg white), formaldehyde, gentamicin sulphate (an antibiotic) and sodium deoxycholate. However, it may be appropriate to give the vaccine to these patients during a pandemic, as long as facilities for resuscitation are available.' http://www.emea.europa.eu/influenza/vaccines/pandemrix/pandemrix.html A list of indgredients and side effects can be found here.This document proves the vaccination does cause GBS http://www.emea.europa.eu/humandocs/PDFs/EPAR/pandemrix/emea-combined-h832en.pdf
Concerning 'Celvapan' the European Medicines Agency in 'What is the risk associated with Celvapan?'states:'The most common side effect with Celvapan (seen in more than 1 people vaccinated in 10) is pain at the site of the injection. For the full list of all side effects reported with Celvapan, see the Package Leaflet.
Celvapan should not be given to people who have had an anaphylactic reaction (severe allergic reaction) to any of the components of the vaccine, or to any of the substances found at trace (very low) levels in the vaccine, such as formaldehyde, benzonase or sucrose. However, it may be appropriate to give the vaccine to these patients during a pandemic, as long as facilities for resuscitation are available.'
http://www.emea.europa.eu/influenza/vaccines/celvapan/celvapan.html;see also:http://www.emea.europa.eu/humandocs/PDFs/EPAR/celvapan/H-982-en1.pdf
The following report 'LIVE ATTENUATED SWINE INFLUENZA VACCINE FOR CHILDREN: SAFETY IN QUESTION'was written by Professor Joe Cummins and Dr. Mae-Wan Ho of the Institute of Science in Society in August 2009. Please read: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/LASIVCSQ.php Linked to this article was an article written by these scientists in July which was titled: 'Fast-tracked Swine Flu Vaccine under Fire: The vaccines far more deadly than the swine flu; mass vaccinations a recipe for disaster'
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/fastTrackSwineFluVaccineUnderFire.php
What are the expected side effects of the new vaccines?
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/frequently_asked_questions/vaccine_preparedness/safety_approval/en/: Some side effects can be associated with influenza vaccination. How often they result depends on the type of vaccine, how it is administered, and the age of the vaccine recipient. There are two main types of vaccines: one is manufactured with inactivated viruses, the other uses live viruses.
Inactivated vaccines, administered by injection, commonly cause local reactions such as soreness, swelling and redness at the injection site, and less often can cause fever, muscle- or joint- aches or headache. These symptoms are generally mild, do not need medical attention, and last 1 to 2 days. Fever, aches and headaches can occur more frequently in children compared to elderly people. Rarely, such influenza vaccines can cause allergic reactions such as hives, rapid swelling of deeper skin layers and tissues, asthma or a severe multisystem allergic reaction due to hypersensitivity to certain vaccine components.
Live vaccines are given via a nasal spray, and can commonly cause runny nose, nasal congestion, cough, and can less frequently cause sore throat, low grade fever, irritability and head- and muscle- aches. Wheezing and vomiting episodes have been described in children receiving live influenza vaccines.
'The H1N1 FluMist Vaccine Contains LIVE Swine Flu Which Is Sprayed Up Your Nose' http://thebirdflupandemic.com/archives/h1n1-flumist-vaccine-is-live-swine-flu-sprayed-up-your-nose
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Please read: 'CDC: H1N1 Has Sickened 22 Million in 6 Months'(12 November 2009)http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,574672,00.html: 'WASHINGTON — Government health officials say swine flu has sickened about 22 million Americans since April.They say about 4,000 have died, including 540 children.'
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The wonderful thing about Homoeopathy is that it treats the patient not the disease, hence it has a number of effective remedies to match the patients unique response to any particular virus.
Bryonia for example has helped flu victims who have complained of severe sharp stabbing, sticking, stitching type pains in their chests, these pains are usually worse for any movement and better by keeping perfectly still and for firm pressure. A very painful cough which aggravates their bursting headaches.the patient is often shivery,hot and sweaty, they are often hard to please and dislike talking and want to be left alone to lie down as they feel so very tired and sleepy. they often have a dry mouth and a large thirst at long intervals for cold drinks.
Hope this helps, there are another 20 remedies or so which cover most cases of Influenza.
Beau
www.homoeopathicflu.com
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"22 million Americans since April.They say about 4,000 have died, including 540 children.'"
Thats still a very small percentage. Smaller than the "normal" flu if I am right?
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Unfortunately there are those who will die from this flu despite what anyone does for them, some through chronic illness and some through not be treated correctly, everyone should be taught basic Naturpathy and Homoeopathy, after all how many people know and use a huge range of remedies found on the chemist shelves, adding a few more effective and safe alternatives has to be the way forward.
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If it's the same report that I read, evadanit, didn't it say they had found a 'new' way to calculate the figures. Since governments etc. can tell all sorts of lies by manipulating statistics I'm always wary about believing them - especially as these new figures showed more deaths than the previous ones!
Why are they trying to hype up the severity of this 'flu and acare everyone into taking the vaccine?
If they were really concerned about the welfare of the general public, why, for example, haven't they called a halt to the vaccination programme in France while they investigate the case of Gillain Barré that has occured so soon after having the jab? Instead, they are playing it down. I'd say a disease which affects the nervous system is as bad, if not worse, than a case of 'flu, wouldn't you? So why do they want to put people at risk from this (and maybe other serious side effects) when the swine 'flu itself is not dangerous in the vast majority of cases.
Have you seen the statistics which say that since seasonal 'flu vaccination was introduced for children the death rate has increased?
But then, you may not want to believe that either. . . . .
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Beau carrel
I am studied Holistic Therapy in College. So always have echinacia in the cupboard ;)
Chloe-in-france
I agree... It's a shame that we can't trust anyone. The British government does get things wrong, hides things and lets things slip through the net...
Too much Aspartame use for starters!!!
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I was interested to note, as Chloe says, that the US are now using a 'new way' of calculating their numbers. I wondered at the time what the 'new' way was....but still none the wiser! Does this revised system improve or worsen their figures? Not entirely sure, as their numbers are so huge that my brain kinda flips when I see them!
My hubbie and Mum are all better now, but they both still have the most terrible tiredness. I remember feeling like this when I had seasonal flu many years ago, and it is such a dreadful weariness. Having seen how very poorly they were (and they could have been even worse without the antibiotics) I would rather me and mine (that haven't had swine flu) are vaccinated at the earliest opportunity. While the worst of the symptoms were over in 5 days and the fever gone within 3, I certainly wouldn't call it mild! Hubbie says he has never felt so ill in his life.
That being said, I would be agonising over getting a vaccination if I was pregnant - it's such a very special time yet you can feel so vulnerable. The sense of responsibility is overwhelming.
It's good to have so much information available, but in some ways, it makes the decision that much harder.
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Kirsti67 re #80 - I totally agree! My experience of parenting is that you don't go through many weeks together without someone going down with one lurgy or another and it's not nice but it's a fact of life and we get on with it, dispense paracetamol, puzzle books and sympathy just like everyone else. But potentially fatal and preventable illnesses are different, obviously. This year we had a bout of norovirus in the house: I was queasy and miserable, my 6yr old ended up in hospital on the high dependancy unit on a drip; the point being that it's a bit silly to assume that if one person fights off a bug easily so will everyone else. As I have said previously, I have a lot of children and we are all currently going through a flu-experience, although whether it's sf or not, we can't say. This is what we have found:
My 6yr old has been sf vaccinated but has not been through the 3 weeks it takes for the antibodies to build up fully - he was mildly ill with a mild temperature,
My 22 mth old who has had 1 vaccination but no booster was a little more ill but broadly fine.
My 4 yr old was very ill with a very nasty temp etc, had tamiflu, was very sick after it but began to pick up soon after and has taken subsequent tamiflu with no vomiting
My 11yr old and 8yr old have been ill for 7 days and 4 days respectively and we are still concerned about temps and it may be that they will require antibiotics. Neither has had tamiflu.
There you go: we're a study on our own! I can draw my conclusions from my experiences, perhaps this will help others to draw their own.
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Saw my GP this morning, and he wouldn't give me any more info than the receptionist earlier in the week re the vaccine and prioritisation. He did say he wasn't sure when the next batch of vaccine would arrive.
I also noted in the article about the numbers in the US that the lady said that the slowness of supply was still an irritation to them. I really don't think there is stockpiling by governments - the problem seems to be mass producing the vaccines.
This begs to wonder exactly what strategic planning the drug companies have in place for mass production of vaccines in times of pandemic or other health crisis. On the basis of current performance, it certainly seems that their planning has been woefully inadequate to supply the demand!
If this really is the case, I also think that the government should make it clear that the fault of slow/intermittent supply is not theirs but the drug companies'.
Frankly, I see no use at all in formulating a second phase priority list when so many people from the first phase are still waiting to be vaccinated!
I also think the government need to address the disparity between individual surgeries on approaches to vaccinating the priority groups. As there are insufficient supplies, the first priority list needs to be broken down more, and also all surgeries should have a far more efficient approach than relying on people to call in, email, write or log on to a website! There are many surgeries who are proactively seeking priority patients - I wish mine and others would.
More lessons to be learned for the future I think!
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#92: Well, there is the part where the usual flu season needs to start, so those comparisons run into a minor comparison snag. Yes, less people have died from the flu than in usual flu seasons, because the usual flu season hasn't started yet / has barely started, which makes the comparisons flawed at best. They aren't less true for it, that much is true.
Dr. Schuchat's data, as she said in yesterday's CDC press conference, was from "the first six months of the pandemic", or up to October 17. I feel it is safe to say that the vast majority, if not all, of the data was collected out of the flu season. We have only past experiences with non-pandemic and some pandemic flu to go on, which do suggest that the rate of ILI is highest in the 'flu season', from November through April, I believe. Last year's Dutch peak was around the 15th of January according to our Flusurvey equivalent.
It could be that we have a rough flu season ahead. It could be that we follow the examples from Down Under, where the flu season was not particularly rough. But we don't know yet. That's the point.
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I have many Children - Grandchildren and over the years they have managed to get most Childhood ailments going around, though they all had the same virus, two or more required a different Homoeopathic remedy to help them recover.
When a suitable remedy could not be identified, I used Biochemic tissue salts to great effect, in conjunction with Naturpathy, fevers were controlled to a safe level and allowed to do what they are meant to do!
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http://www.naturalnews.com/027149_fever_Chi_RNA.html
A little insight into fevers.
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Hi Beau
I was wondering what you would recommend for my DH as I don't know where to start. He complained of chest pains and a dry cough over the last few days. This morning he has a temp of 38.3C (roughly 101F) and he is feeling a bit weak, achey and shivery. However, he is in his usual good mood and is still sat at his desk working, which I must say I think is silly. His chest no longer hurts, but he is coughing a lot. He doesn't have a sore throat or a runny nose, but feels his head is bunged up.
Could you help, please?
Thanks very much.
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enlightened
I'm no Beau, but steam inhallation works wonders! The chest pain sounds like it's from the Coughing though.
if his head feels bunged, then maybe his sinuses are blocked? so maybe some steam with menthol and eucalyptus would help? Also stock up on the Vit C, water, and even blueberries as they are a great antioxident! (get organic if you can!)
I actually had a cough and upper resparitory infection for 3 weeks a few months ago and was coughing up green stuff from the morning and through the night! grr.!
Tigerjayj
Glad your mum and Dad got over it... It didn't kill them did it? so why is the World vaccinating??
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Also, Beau, I must say I absolutely agree that we have a raised body temperature for a reason (not that my doc agress - she always says bring it down). Since reading in the BMJ about a study done back in the 1920s on bringing the temps of children down, and the detrimantal effect it may have, I have tried to hold off the anti-pyretics with my son. Since I stopped, he does seem to be ill for shorter periods of time. It's hard, though, as a high temp can be scary. He always used to get temps of at least 40C when he was younger, and that took some getting used to (whenever I checked with the docs, they weren't worried, as long as he wasn't terribly poorly in himself).
Last year I had the most terrible flu which lasted for about eight days, and I was taking paracetamol for the first few days, as I felt so bad (these days I never touch it). However, on the seventh day I just sat on the sofa, with a temp of 39.5 (103C) and a hot water bottle on my back, which was really aching. The following day I felt normal, but weak, and my glands were massive, but I felt great and my temp was back to normal. I still feel sure it was my body giving those bugs a final blast!
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Thank you, Eva. Sorry, I didn't see your comment. I'm just off to do a shop now and will bear in my mind your advice. Thanks for taking the time.
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hi Tigerjayj, I know some people do suffer longer than others with 'flu and you can feel 'washed out' for some time afterwards so I'm pleased your parents are over the worst now.
Evadanit, Beau and Enlightened have some very good points about dealing with fever and 'flu symptoms. Hopefully the vaccine will be delayed a bit longer and lots of people will be tempted to try alternative (and much safer) methods to combat the illness.
Hello Beau, have you heard of using Hydrogen peroxide (food grade and highly diluted) for curing many diseases?
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"Hello Beau, have you heard of using Hydrogen peroxide (food grade and highly diluted) for curing many diseases?"
Again, I am no Beau, but Hydrogen Peroxide is a type of bleach, so in effect, it does kill germs.
I don't think it would "cure" a disease, but would disinfect your home and in effect, wipe out the germs there (and maybe the ones in your mouth)
It is actually in our body, but taking too much would rid us of all the good bacteria, aswell as the bad ones.
I am sure if you took it to a lab though and dropped it on come diseased cells then it would kill them... But probably kill the other ones too that we need. Hence why it hasn't been used... yet... for treatments. I am sure it will continue to be tried, but at the moment... stick to cleaning your ears or home with it, and don't try to get rid of Swine Flu by drinking it!
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Actually, evadanit, it can be used internally
http://www.bobbys-healthy-shop.com/shop/page/22?shop_param= but I don't have personal experience of any cures: except for putting it down ears to clear the sinuses. That's why I was asking Beau.
You're right that it would probably kill good as well as bad bacteria so I suppose you would have to take probiotics after the 'cure'.
There is an e-book entitled "The One Minute Cure" all about H202 but the information is freely available on the net if you look for it.
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enlightened;
I was wondering what you would recommend for my DH as I don't know where to start. He complained of chest pains and a dry cough over the last few days. This morning he has a temp of 38.3C (roughly 101F) and he is feeling a bit weak, achey and shivery. However, he is in his usual good mood and is still sat at his desk working, which I must say I think is silly. His chest no longer hurts, but he is coughing a lot. He doesn't have a sore throat or a runny nose, but feels his head is bunged up.
It would be foolhardy of me to try and diagnose with such little information, mild cases of flu often just produce a few unpleasant physical symptoms, with the mental state remaining normal, here is a extract from the book (The First Glance)of a common flu remedy we use.
Gelsemium
Symptoms appear slowly
Feels miserable
Drowsy - dull - lethargic - great weariness
Legs heavy - weak - wobbly
Dizziness
Heavy drooping eyelids
Skin is moist hot and sticky
Little cold shivers - worse from cold draughts
Trembling - shaking needs holding
Heavy besotted face with light dull flush
Desires solitude - in dark room
Desires to keep perfectly still
Worse least movement
Headache bursting - from neck over the
Head to eyes and forehead
Intensely dry mouth - lips - little thirst
Sensitive to light - eyes congested
Violent sneezing - watery discharge - nose
Temporarily feels better for passing
Large quantities of urine
There is a range of intensity of symptoms from mild to very severe, where you might encounter some or most of the above, and even more which is discussed in greater depth in the book.
Again when the case is not clear use low potencies , and always make use of the Biochemic tissue salts, Ferrum Phos, Kali Mur, Natrum Mur is sold as a combination remedy for coughs and colds etc, For more intense influenza's use a combination of Ferrum Phos, Kali Mur and Natrum Sulph in hot water and sipped frequently.
Yes I have read about H202 but have no practical experiences with it, much like colloidal silver read much but never used it.
I would advise studying Homoeopathy and employing it as soon as you can if you or your loved ones get the flu, the correct remedies in the first 24 hours can mitigate the effects of flu.
Beau
www.homoeopathicflu.com
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TigerJayj,
Thanks, i didn't go to work today and stayed in bed, kept warm, kept still, kept supported. Got up and ate a large pomegranate including pips and did some blogging. I did phone the doctors and explained the symptoms very accurately. I don't need to go to the doctors at the moment but if it happens again I must and the symptoms have been recorded, just in case.
Loads of people are off sick from where I work.
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It is a sensible idea to note all the symptoms of friends work colleagues and family if they contract the flu, this will lead you to one or two homoeopathic remedies that cover
most of the cases, this or these remedies can be taken/given as a preventative measure to those who have not got it, and to those who come into contact with the sufferers.
I have also included a section on treating vaccination side effects for those who feel they need the flu vaccination.
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Here is an interesting website giving a scientific argument for being wary of vaccines. An American doctor questions what is taught about vaccination after practicing medicine and seeing evidence first hand.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/11/14/Expert-Pediatrician-Exposes-Vaccine-Myths.aspx
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That is an excellent article Chloe thank you!
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