Number of cases continues to rise
At first glance, the latest weekly swine flu figures for England look worrisome. Cases are up by more than 50% and several hundred people are in hospital. Northern Ireland and Scotland (see below) have also seen big increases.
In England at least, look a bit closer and the overall picture is somewhat reassuring. Yes, cases are continuing to rise, but not at the rate we saw in July when there was a doubling of cases each week. That dramatic growth could still happen - and the trend is upwards - but we are well below the levels of flu in the community of three months ago. The biggest increases continue to be among school-age children.
Here are some of the main points from the weekly briefing of Sir Liam Donaldson, chief medical officer for England.
Figures for England:
• Estimated cases 14,000 - up from 9,000 the previous week
• School outbreaks since autumn term began - 79
• 39 of those in Yorkshire and Humber
• 286 people were in hospital with swine flu on 30 September
• 36 of those were in critical care
• Total number of swine flu related deaths so far in England - 72 - two more deaths in the past week
• Total deaths in the UK so far 84 (one in Wales, nine in Scotland and two in Northern Ireland)
Now for a few graphs.
Influenza-like illness: Weekly GP consultation rate England and Wales
It's the red line that you need to look at here. Yes, the rate is up on last week, but still way below that in July when it was above 150 per 100,000. So we are still in the foothills of the second peak of swine flu and should expect it to rise - at some point - way above 200 per 100,000 (see Northern Ireland below).
Age distribution of fully investigated deaths
Of the 84 deaths - the biggest proportion have been among the 16-44 age group, though there have been deaths among people of all ages. A quarter of the deaths have been among the over 65s - a much lower proportion than with seasonal flu.
Underlying conditions information for fully investigated deaths
This shows that around half the deaths have been among people with severe underlying health conditions (such as leukaemia). Around one in five of those who died had been entirely healthy.
A more detailed UK weekly epidemiology update can be found here.
Vaccines
Immunisation of the first at-risk groups is drawing nearer, but there is no firm date yet. Sir Liam Donaldson: "If everything goes well it will be in the second half of October but we are not tying ourselves to any date."
And a word of caution from the Department of Health's head of immunisation, Professor David Salisbury who made clear that the start date for immunisation depends on when they get sufficient supplies of vaccine:
"We have not got GSK vaccine in stock yet, but the critical step is the licensing step. There were delays in the initial production process but we've been assured that we'll have sufficient stocks for the priority groups. But we are dependent on the manufacturers to supply it."
ECMO
I've written a lot about the technique called ECMO which involves adding oxygen to the blood outside the body. It's a treatment that is used for the most dangerously ill patients whose lung function has totally failed. The only adult unit is in Leicester and has five beds (which are also used for treating children).
Sir Liam said that an expert review led by Dr Judith Hulf has approved the doubling of capacity in Leicester. There are also paediatric ECMO units at three other UK hospitals which have a total of 10 beds between them. But it remains to be seen whether the doubling - to 10 beds - of capacity in Leicester, will be sufficient. That would make a total of 20 ECMO beds in the UK.
Australia, which has just gone through its first winter with swine flu, found ECMO to be a life-saver. At one stage there were 23 people on ECMO machines, most of them adults. Australia's population is around a third of that of the UK.
Swine flu cases in the rest of the UK
Northern Ireland now has the highest level of swine flu in the UK. Figures show that there has been a marked increase in cases every week since the schools went back. GP consultations for flu-like illnesses have reached 208 per 100,000.
The chief medical officer for Northern Ireland, Dr Michael McBride said:
"The number of contacts for flu-like illness made to GPs during this period has risen again over this last week, reaching the highest level for nine years. The rate remains highest in the 5-14 age group. Although, calls made to GPs Out of Hours for flu like illness have risen for the fourth week in a row, primary care services continue to cope well despite the increased demand on their services. The ongoing increase in swine flu activity suggests that we are in a second wave. This is something we are monitoring closely."The full weekly flu bulletin is available from the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and NIDirect. Finally a note on swine flu cases in Scotland. The Scottish government released figures suggesting almost 14,000 people contracted swine flu in the past week. That's almost double the figure for the previous week, but may be partly due to a change in the way information is gathered.
The full HPS weekly situation report on influenza A (H1N1) can be found here.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~54~RS~)
I'm 
Comments
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If I remember rightly, wasn't it the Humber area that didn't have a lot of sf in the summer?
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It seems that the areas that are seeing a marked increase now are the ones that weren't so badly affected in the first wave. I'm still interested in Skyline's post on mutation and am still considering whether to put my daughter forward for the vaccine trials, but today, like a previous contributor on the subject, I'm having an against day, espceially as my daughter has complained of sore throat, has some irritating phlegm and is coughing slightly, so may well be she has it anyway. There were certainly loads of coughs to be heard all over her school this morning when I dropped her off. I certainly won't be having her vaccinated if the symptoms she has now continue. We live in North London by the way.
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Are these figures of current swine flu cases only the ones that are proven? My husband, my son and myself had all the symptom but we didn't seek any medical advice,we just looked after each other. My younger son in Cardiff lives in a household of 6 students and they currently have swine flu (there have been 2 confirmed cases at his college and many other students are ill there too). Surely most people will have had it before the vaccine is available.
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Here we go - hold on for the Winter ride! Yes it could mutate to a safer form - but if I was a virus I would mutate to a more serious form, after all is that not what viruses do? In that case the vaccine would be of little use as it would be based on the wrong strain.
Have a look at "nocompulsoryvaccination" under blogspot .com - makes interesting reading.
At work (as a Paramedic in the UK) we are being issued full face double filter ventilator masks for use on possible swine flu patients. Personally I will not be wearing one and will hopefully catch the virus and get it out the way! That is better than injecting myself with an untested poison!
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How are we meant to assess these figures? We were told that no screening was being done for swine flu and that all cases of "flu like symptoms" were to be reported as swine flu.
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Hi Fergus,
As is too often the case, I find the BBC's coverage of this topic a bit one-sided.
As a respected Journalist with a Corporation that has a Royal Charter, and that aims to "provide accurate, impartial and balanced coverage of news and current affairs in order to help the public make informed choices", I'd really like to see you bring to the attention of the British Public the charges brought against BAXTER AG (in Austria), the President of the United States and several members of WHO, by Medical Author and journalist Jane Bürgermeister, and the accusations made against David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, et al, in a rather extensive and comprehensive affidavit, by Dr. Len Horowitz (USA), who both denounce the H1N109 Swine Flu as a laboratory-manufactured bio-weapon intended to depopulate the planet.
Strong stuff, I'll admit, but wouldn't a balanced presentation of the facts then be achieved by informing the British public of this?
I in no way want to denigrate your coverage of this subject thus far: I would simply like to see the BBC (through your contribution), adhere to its Charter, Policy and duty to the public that pay for what you all do.
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[Personal details removed by Moderator] Are you serious!
Im genuinely concerned if you are a paramedic... Genuinely. Okay. Firstly, what on earth gave you the idea that viruses generally mutate to a more severe form? If that was the case, wouldnt we all be dead by now? Kinda figures doesnt it.... Wouldnt the first ever influenza virus of all time, wouldnt it of wiped humanity off the face of the earth? Does this still make sense to you? Or what about the 1918 strain of H1N1, why is that still not around? its certainly not herd immunity that stopped that one, it was far too vicious for that. It mutated. Hence why we still have the same influenza family that the 1918 strain spawned. It mutated to a milder form. Jeez...
Okay, 2nd point to you [Personal details removed by Moderator]. If a virus has a choice, it can either kill people quite quickly, or make people a bit ill, which would it choose? Obvious. It would choose to make them a bit ill. How can a virus that kills its host be as contagious as one that just makes people a little sick? It cannot, it will not and is physically and biologically impossible. It would kill its host, what good is that? A dead host cant pass a virus on can it. Hence why the most successful viruses of all time always cause the mildest symptoms. Its common sense, far far easier to transfer from living host to living host especially if its only causing mild symptoms, as people would be less inclined to isolate themselves, or seek treatment.
Jeez this stuff is common sense that i imagine anyone with half a brain would just automatically know. Its nature, its what happens in every species pretty much. Il give you some advice, get off the silly conspiracy websites, stick your mask on, and drive people to hospital who need treatment. The idea of getting yourself sick rather than wearing the mask is just so irresponsible i hope that you get turned in, so you arent allowed to infect anyone who is ill you may be taking to hospital. It is SO selfish, so selfish. What if you infect someone who just had a heart attack who your taking to hospital. What if he survives his heart attack, but then dies of complications related to H1N1. How selfish would that make you feel knowing you killed a man, because of your silly unfounded theories. Disgraceful and i hope this post knocks some sense into you, because you really need it.
OK now im done discussing that... Unpleasant item. Universalmum, when you reference my post on the mutation, can you please clarify that it was a limited spread, hasnt been seen since july, and also, was a positive mutation. As it sounds a little scary for the uninformed newcomer, thats all :).
Any questions anyone? Il be sure to check back here a few times this evening, as im working til late editing, so il be on my computers all evening, til sometime this AM.
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Skyline
Would appreciate your thoughts on the vaccine trials for children as my 2 are booked in for this weekend. I understand broadly how the vaccines are made ie the same way as any other flu vaccines with a different strain but how extensively have they been tested? The way I see it the vaccines will be used anyway and have been trialled in adults so this way I can get my kids vaccinated a few months ahead and reduce the chances of them getting SF.
I'm not interested in the views of the David Icke fan - stick to the reptile theory and talk to some fellow nutters somewhere else. I prefer to follow the opinions of educated scientists rather than the ex-Coventry City goalkeeper who believes that the world is a giant hologram.
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Is the red line for all influenza like illness? I'm assuming that it is. Only just got on line this evening so got some catching up to do. Good point there, Fergus, about the specialist ECMO units-by comparing the ratio to population in Australia and here it would seem that we're going to need at least another 40 odd! If we did need more than we have capacity for, we could find that the spares in other countries are not available to us if their own cases rise. Not only that, but having read how scared that poor pregnant scottish lady was when she woke up in a foreign hospital it seems like a good idea to have more. I'm sure they're used for other things, not just SF complications, so surely it's not a waste of money? Bad enough to have to go a long way away in the UK, but better that than abroad or not at all. Surely the savings on medical flights would make it worth it?
The pie charts are interesting-The biggest 2 percentages of deaths are 15-44 and over 65's. Will the government change their vaccination strategy now I wonder? It would also be interesting to see a combination of underlying conditions and age ranges-for example are the deaths in the 15-44 age range in mainly healthy, mild, moderate or severe groups?
Further, you qualify severe underlying health conditions by the example of Leukaemia, but it would still be good to see these defined in far more detail-likewise the definitive breakdown of health conditions on priority 1. Is it really that difficult to define them? Surely it can't be, otherwise doctors wouldn't be able to contact the right people. If they go by the regular seasonal flu vaccination lists then surely a lot of these are excluded as being in the over 65 group? Or are most over 65's suffering conditions serious enough to warrant it? My step dad is 80 and has a very bad heart condition, but his age alone would seem to exclude him. My mother is a battleaxe and she won't be refused easily if this is the case! And I'm sure she's not the only one (just in case you're wondering-I'm like my Dad-complete opposite-won't say boo to a goose!)
off to study now-a good time when it's so quiet.
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I have to confess, I find it strange that some health professionals appear to be getting their info from wacky websites-surely noone takes these people seriously? I would have thought that their employers were ensuring they had absolutely up to the second accurate info. It's quite possible that they have far more knowledge than is in the public domain so this predilection for weird stuff is very strange to me......but then again, I keep reading reports of doctors and NHS staff saying they will refuse the SF vaccine just like they do the seasonal one. Is their choice based on personal feelings or medical knowledge? Are medical/health staff required to have other vaccinations like Hepatitis as a job requisite, and if so, shouldn't flu vaccines be the same? After all, like you say Skyline, they come into contact with vulnerable people far more than any other walk of life.
Just a couple of questions you'll probably be able to answer Skyline, if you don't mind me asking-will the SF vaccine protect against mutations (positive and negative!), and if a person is vaccinated or has had SF can they still carry the virus and pass it on to others? I'm absolutely sure that there must be people out there who have never shown any symptoms nor contracted SF that are carriers (like a Typhoid Mary I suppose), so I was wondering if the vaccine will stop this.
Not important questions, so don't worry if you're too busy working to answer-just my weird brain thinking what ifs as usual!
Back to my studies!
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RogerEli-I think the trials that the children are booked in for are for the vaccines we're getting soon-the adult one was A different one which we aren't getting. I thought they were the same and was terribly confused until Fergus clarified it for me (see previous blog). From what I understand, these vaccines haven't been trialled before, but Skyline will be able to give you the correct info I'm sure-he's so very well informed, and knows a lot about the world wide picture which brings a massive amount of good perspective to this blog!
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Okay, so.
Roger. The Swine flu vaccine is literally, honest to god, as safe as the seasonal flu shot. I know that without trials. Its common sense, as the vaccine is the same, except a different strain. See this is where you can instantly disprove the conspiracy nuts. They say that this vaccine is the dodgy one, but the seasonal one they dont mention. Newsflash. Its the same thing! The nuts for some reason think that the swine flu shot is made in a different way, or with different components, that mean it will be some sort of reptilian jewish NWO weapon to kill us all. Its not. Its essentially the same thing, a flu shot. It will have the same chance of giving the 0.1 percent of people who have a sore arm for a few days, as the seasonal flu shot. These things are tested so much, before they are even considered okay for human trials.
Trust me your kids will be fine. Personally i wouldnt vaccinate them against swine flu, as i feel its a little needless considering the virus has a 1/7500 mortality rate (and the vast majority of those have underlying health conditions, oh and not my figures, the CDC's figures.)
But if you choose to do so, its perfectly safe, and nothing bad will happen to them, and hopefully itl stop them getting a rotten, but relatively harmless flu bug this winter.
Tiger. If, if swine flu mutates a little, positive or negative (i highly doubt both but then again, i think i say that enough!) the vaccine will probably, odds on give some immunization. Depending on the mutation and the level of mutation, you would get varying amounts of immunity. So.. Its impossible to definitively say without it happening.
You cant carry the virus, if you are already immune, other than on your hands or something. Say i had swine flu last month, then i shook hands with a gentleman who currently has swine flu. Then within 5 minutes (as flu bugs only live on hands for 5 minutes max its far too warm) i shook your hand, and you touched your mouth, within 5 minutes, there is a chance you could of caught flu like that. But other than that, no, i dont think you can really carry it if your immune. Im not 100 percent on that as i never really went into depth on that aspect, but im pretty positive, 98 percent (that was awful specific! could be 97%. Its a good question.
Oh yeah people without symptoms, who are asymptomatic. They can still pass the virus on for the 2 weeks or so its in their system, yes.
And this guy isnt a health professional. He knows first aid. Thats what ambulance drivers are there for. They arent doctors or specialists. They are incredibly brave and talented people in most cases, (not so sure in this one), but they arent "health professionals" so to speak. Dont take advice on vaccines or whatever from them, as odds on they will know as little as your average citizen.
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Firstly sorry Skyline for not being clearer about the reference to the mutation. I did Google it and read the report which explained very clearly that it was just the two cases in Holland in the summer and that it had been observed to have mutated in the positve way you have so clearly explained. I agree that the word mutation in itself sounds a bit science fictiony scary. On the vaccine trials, we are booked to see the Dr tomorrow and I think we will go along and ask all the questions we need to which at present for me are along the lines of: she has some mild cold like symptoms now, should she have the vaccine, will it protect against any kind of mutation, although this question has been answered partially by your last comment to Roger above. I think like me Roger, you seem to be a very concerned parent with a little bit of health anxiety for your kids like I have for mine and we both seem to have a bit of irrational worry on the side. All the decisions we have ever made for our kids' health have worked so far so why are we so worried about something going wrong with the vaccine trial? For me I suppose to try and sum it up in one: why do I want to take an action (vaccine trial) which could make my daughter ill or harm her in some unforeseen way, when to do nothing would allow us to continue in the apparently safe way we are proceeding at the moment, trying to boost her immunity with elderberry extract, good diet, extra vitamins, manuka honey, watching all the sf news and waiting to see if/when she gets ill will it be a mild or serious case. Trying to balance very difficult to assess and almost unknown statistical chances. Isn't life difficult sometimes!
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Roger, I'd been trying to remember who David Icke played for. It's one of those things you don't forget, the bloke off Grandstand suddenly popping up on - was it Wogan? - claiming to be the Second Coming...obviously I was very young at the time ;-)
Paul, I'm open-minded enough that if you have read something that has given you a scienfitific understanding of why the vaccine is dangerous then I would like to read it. Not through a link, but here, in your own words, so that it can be debated and examined for accuracy.
Skyline, I've met plenty of paramedics as my daughter has been taken to hospital by ambulance on more than one occasion and they are incredible people. Apparently they did panic when my daughter collapsed when I was in hospital just after my son was born, but generally they stay so calm and have kept me from going nuts. I met one once whose colleague had attended my friend's son when he died of meningitis and she was telling me how his death had affected her colleague - not so that he couldn't do his job, but just how distressed he'd been. I really and truly don't know how they do it.
I think we sometimes forget that people in the NHS are human, with all the ranges of belief, personality and experience. I do not know the depth of training that paramedics have but I know a highly-trained, dedicated nurse who also left off her mask so that she could catch sf and get it out of the way, because I think she felt that the vaccine would take too long to be rolled out and she wanted it out of the way before it mutated. I really believe that she thought that would be better all round, that she'd be available for work now when she would be needed. My dh knows a paramedic who says that opinion about the sf vaccine is divided 50/50 amongst the medical staff he works with (this does include doctors). But I think the people I listen to the most about the swine flu vaccine are the GPs, including my own. I know that they do have the seasonal flu jab themselves (my GP swears that those in the regular flu vaccine programme who've had jabs for a few yrs seem to have some immunity to sf) and are not going to be refusing the sf vaccine either for themselves or their families. I listen to them on this issue becase they administer and see the results of thousands of people of all ages having the flu jab, year in, year out. I can conceive that a doctor in A&E may see the rare anaphylactic shocks and that they may be put off by that. But my GP has been in the game for years and when he tells me that the sf jab will be as safe as the normal seasonal flu jab, I believe him. To be truthful, I think my kids are at more risk driving to the surgery to have the jab in the first place.
Roger, I do sympathise, the thing about jabs is that they can cause side effects like temps and things (my eldest daughter got floored by her MMR) so that you are basically taking a well child and giving them something that will make them feel a bit unwell (possibly). You have to weigh up the pros and cons, don't you, (like the possible severity of the illness you are trying to prevent) and also have an enormous amount of faith in the vaccine itself. I am sure that whatever you decide your kids will be fine. You sound like a great dad. :-)
Skyline, interesting about the 2 week thing. People with swine flu are no way going to stay at home for two weeks', unless they get very unwell of course. So they will be returning to work whilst still contagious. When my dh got seasonal flu when our son was a baby he was told to avoid contact with him as far as possible for 5 days as that was how long he'd be contagious for. Was that wrong info, or is sf different from seasonal flu?
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I cannot believe parents are taking their young children to have this vaccination and allowing them to be used as guinea pigs. Fatalities have occurred due to similar vaccines in the past .. notably in 1976. Information is everywhere if you look.
Google Dr Mercola for the benefits of Vitamin D as flu protection. Google Mike Adams The Health Ranger .. And here is a list of the contents of the Swine Flu vaccine. I believe only one of them contains the mercury!!
CONTENTS OF SWINE FLU VACCINE >>
* aluminum hydroxide* aluminum phosphate* ammonium sulfate* amphotericin
* animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain, dog kidney, monkey kidney,
* chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg* calf (bovine) serum* betapropiolactone
* fetal bovine serum* formaldehyde* formalin* gelatin* glycerol
* human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
* hydrolized gelatin* mercury thimerosol (thimerosal, Merthiolate(r))
* monosodium glutamate (MSG)* neomycin* neomycin sulfate* phenol red indicator
* phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)* potassium diphosphate* potassium monophosphate
* polymyxin B* polysorbate 20* polysorbate 80
* porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein* residual MRC5 proteins* sorbitol
* tri(n)butylphosphate,
* VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells, and
* washed sheep red blood
Give me a few days in bed anytime with mega Vit C doses.
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Universalmum, we crossed posts. My top tip would honestly be: stop watching/reading/googling the sf news. You will get all the info you need from this blog and if anything major happens you'll hear it via mainstream news. Sure, if there is a particular issue you need to investigate then do your research, but try to stop watching and waiting 'in case', it really does build up your anxiety. I'm another one who gets anxiety around my kids (never, ever for myself) and I've found that not feeding it works. I've got to the stage now where I'm fairly chilled about sf - if we haven't had it already, we'll deal with it when it comes, but we still have a greater chance of not getting sf than we do of getting it. Speaking personally, and not referring to you or anyone else because you probably aren't over-anxious, I know my kids suffer when I'm in over-anxious protection mode and I have a miserable time. The present moment is all we have and if my kids are okay right now, then so am I.
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WasitovertheLine,
Your recipe search sounds like something out of a witches cauldron. It reminds me of some of the scenes in the film Black Sheep.
Where did you get the information and is it reliable?
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Hello Sensible.
They will not let me post links so google ....swine flu vaccine ingredients .... and look at the natural news links .. In fact look at them all ... and the links I mentioned in previous post.
Also look at the wwwchildhoodshots link .... All the info is out there on reputable sources if people just do some internet searching themselves.
Everyone talks about how much they care about their children and want to protect them .. Well then spend a few hours on the web and do your research ..The Big pharma companies stand to gain BILLIONS of dollars from any mass vaccination campaign .. In the Guardian today there is a big story about how there are 6 Healthcare Lobbyists for every congressman out there .. and how 380 million dollars has just been spent recently to influence congress on decisions concerning healthcare reform. Effectively they have now caused Obama to back down.
Also I think Rumsfeld himself was reported to have made 6 million dollars on his Tamiflu shares !!
Do some research ,,, The results will shock you ..
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It's funny, isn't it, how those in favour of vaccination are accused of being the gullible ones?
Anyway, Grannie, if you go to NHS Choices and click on the page about the swine flu vaccine you'll find somewhere a link to the patient informaton leaflets for both vaccines. I only clicked on the Glaxo one and it's very interesting. I was surprised at how strong the side effects can be, I would say worse than MMR, and there was quite a bit of info as to whether children should get the full dose or not (I understand they will be). The NHS site explains that pork tissue is used by one manufacturer in the process of making the vaccine but that it is not detectable in the final version - doesn't mention other animals so presumably covers this for religious rather than ethical reasons - what do you do if you are vegetarian? So I woudl suggest that the ingredients used in the manufacturing process are far scarier than in the final vaccine - so I guess it is up to us what we decide from there. I mean, our food is doused in chemicals every day, we breathe in formaldehyde because it is compulsory to use it to make furniture fire retardent...where do you draw the line? But then this is easy for me to say as my kids won't be up for the vaccine until after the peak anyway.
Skyline, Fergus keeps referring to Australia having had its 'first' winter with swine flu. Do you think that it is likely this will be repeated next winter too?
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Wasit, please don't treat us as though we are stupid. We know that the multinationals will coin it in from sf, as they do every other form of illness and human misery. We know they are exploitative and use money to win political influence. But we also know that they do come up with life saving drugs sometimes. And don't think that Obama doesn't have equal backing - he doesn't back down on anything unless he wants to, nice man though he is.
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WasitovertheLine
Are you suggesting that pharma companies have become more powerful than country leaders?
Are you also suggesting that political people have invested their money into pharma companies, creating a conflict of interest?
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Grannie, I am sure that you know anyway, but Rumsfeld was chair of the parent company of the Tamiflu manufacturer. If he still owns shares then he has made millions. He would possibly have had influence over the avian flu scare which first caused tamiflu to be stockpiled. Don't know how much the US is stockpiling tamiflu this time around but I do know they aren't using it in quantity against sf, not dishing it out like sweeties as we are.
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Hi Angels ,, certainly don't mean to be disrespectful .. but there are an awful lot of people out there who just swallow what the establishment tells them .. It sounds like we are on the same tack anyway.
And .. Yes .. sensible .... I am not only suggesting those things but you can read about it happening before your eyes in mainstream press .. Just read about the capers and conflicts of interest the Bush cabal have got going in the Iraqi war.
There are over 2,000 people in Washington employed as Lobbyists and paid handsomely by big corporations to lobby the congressmen on all kinds of issues .. This lobbying invariably takes the form of cash into campaigns and who knows what else ..
google wantToKnow.info .... and look for health ... you will find little read stories in reputable leading newspapers about all manner of things.
Sorry for digressing ..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Wasitovertheline, I think very few people here trust what the establishment says, but neither do we trust what the conspiracy theorists say. I am cynical about any source of information that is trying to make my mind up for me. So I wouldn't say we were on the same tack exactly, more like we've had access to the same information and reached different conclusions. Anyone here with the slightest interest or concern in, say, the swine flu vaccine will have googled it and already come up with the info you mention. It is possible to take all that in and still conclude that the vaccine is okay, just as I won't give a stuff about how many millions Rumsfeld has made should me and mine need Tamiflu if and when the next pandemic happens.
Skyline, it is really important for the conspiracy theories to be aired so that they can be dealt with. If there are myths doing the rounds about the vaccines containing the brains of diseased monkeys then this is the place for them to be de-bunked, where it has the potential to reach millions. It may be repetitive for you but I am sure that you are aware how important it is.
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From the European Medicines Agency:
Like all medicines, Pandemrix can cause side effects, although not everybody gets them.
Allergic reactions may occur following vaccination, in rare cases leading to shock. Doctors are aware of this possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases.
In the clinical studies with a similar vaccine, most side effects were mild in nature and short term. The side-effects are generally similar to those related to the seasonal flu vaccine.
The frequency of possible side effects listed below is defined using the following convention:
Very common (affects more than 1 user in 10)
Common (affects 1 to 10 users in 100)
Uncommon (affects 1 to 10 users in 1,000)
Rare (affects 1 to 10 users in 10,000)
Very rare (affects less than 1 user in 10,000)
The side effects listed below have occurred with Pandemrix in clinical studies in adults, including the elderly and in children aged from 3-9 years:
Very common:
• Headache
• Tiredness
• Pain, redness, swelling or a hard lump at the injection site
• Fever
• Aching muscles, joint pain
Common:
• Warmth, itching or bruising at the injection site
• Increased sweating, shivering, flu-like symptoms
• Swollen glands in the neck, armpit or groin
Uncommon:
• Tingling or numbness of the hands or feet
• Sleepiness
• Dizziness
• Diarrhoea, vomiting, stomach pain, feeling sick
• Itching, rash
• Generally feeling unwell
• Sleeplessness
In children aged 3-9 years fever occurred more often when the adult dose (0.5 ml of vaccine) was given compared to administration of half the Adult dose (0.25 ml of vaccine). Also fever occurred more often in children aged 6-9 years compared to the children aged 3-5 years.
These side effects usually disappear within 1-2 days without treatment. If they persist, CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR.
The side effects listed below have occurred in the days or weeks after vaccination with vaccines given routinely every year to prevent flu. These side effects may occur with Pandemrix.
Uncommon:
• Generalised skin reactions including urticaria (hives)
Rare:
• Allergic reactions leading to a dangerous decrease of blood pressure, which, if untreated, may lead to shock. Doctors are aware of this possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases.
• Fits
• Severe stabbing or throbbing pain along one or more nerves
• Low blood platelet count which can result in bleeding or bruising
Very rare:
• Vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels which can cause skin rashes, joint pain and kidney
problems)
• Neurological disorders such as encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the central nervous system),neuritis (inflammation of nerves) and a type of paralysis known a Guillain-Barré Syndrome.
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Yep, not a million miles from MMR. This info is in the public domain via the NHS website. I think any informed parent would be aware of these types of side effects, including the risk of death. As my GP says, yes children do die being vaccinated, but they are much more likely to die on the trip to the surgery (or the homeopath.) So for me the issue is whether or not to vaccinate my children at all, with any vaccine, rather than the safety of the swine flu vaccine in particular. It's horrible, taking a well child and (possibly) making them ill. All I can say is that I faffed around over MMR until I saw the devastation that the death of my friend's son caused her family, and that opened my eyes to the risk that I was taking with my kids' lives for a matter of 'principle' of keeping them 'pure'. ASAP they were down to the GP for their MMR. I felt terrible when my eldest got unwell with it, but the relief that they are almost certainly protected now that measles is about locally is enormous (and that scares me far more than sf).
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What an interesting blog today.
I am not against vaccinations, my two have had the MMR and will probably/maybe be getting the SF vaccine when it comes round. (Like you UM, I swing from day to day) like you, daughter has had sore throat and bad cough for two weeks, yet I cannot be positive it is SF so I have to assume she hasnt had it. The only vaccine I will be exempting the girls from is the Cervical Cancer jab (and, no its nothing to do with the sad case this week).
There is an awful lot of information around re Baxter, and it does sway faith in the company, also in the WHO who have a list as long as your arm re unsafe use of vaccine testing.
However, if we had never put any faith in a vaccine, we would all be living no longer than 40 and it would be like living in the dark ages.
There are scores of children in hospital in Wales due to the lack of uptake for the MMR, the LHA's are very concerned and there are epidemics all over. One man made a very dangerous link and children are ill because of it. Thats how much power the written word has.
I dont know if there were any complications due to the vaccinations with the asian flu etc, but I did read (On the BBC) that a lot of lives were saved by it, even though people were vaccinated after the first wave.
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Paulisabout. instead of simply cutting and pasting, why not tell us what your point is? Also try interpreting information rather than simply regurgitating it - talk about gullible.................
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As most of you know, I work in the MBS field (both in its flakey and not-so-flakey forms) and let me tell you that so many people are in it to inflate their own egos. In particular some of the websites...good grief. Listen to the ones who don't tell you what to do or how to think. Anyone feeling at all anxious should go to thework.org.
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hello all well this discussion about the safety of the sf vaccine currently being TRIALLED in children really has got everyone hot under the collar. I wrote trialled in capitals to emphasise that you cannot compare the sf vaccine and its safety or side effects or efficacy with the MMR so easily as the MMR was a proven, well trialled and effective vaccine long before anyone started erroneously linking it with autism or any other severe result. On the sf vaccine I have now been thinking aboout and discussing it for 5 days since I saw the opportunity to have my daughter vaccinated, but have now come to the more comfortable decision that I will not have her vaccinated in this trial. It is not so much to do with the safety or otherwise of the vaccine, and thank you angelscomeinthrees for all your input on being sensible about this, but it has more to do with the possibility that if she gets sf, it will overwhelmingly be more likely to be more or less like seasonal flu. I have never considered getting her vaccinated against seasonal flu so why should sf be any different? Nothing statistically about it shows that it is any more dangerous than seasonal flu, or else we would be looking at a completely different scenario in terms of who is going to get vaccinated, controls in place to isolate people etc etc. For all I know she has already had it in the first wave. There was one diagnosed case at her school and many children all came down with the same flu like illness at the same time she did in early July. When I rang NHS direct they said "yes you are in a bit of a sf hot spot". The Dr I spoke to the other day running the vaccine trial in our area confirmed that they would only NOT give children the vaccine if they had been clinically diagnosed with sf and had been given Tamiflu, so that probably means that most of the children taking part may or may not have had sf and nobody will know. That's another thing which is really annoying about this whole sf, and I know some others in this blog have expressed the same view - how do we measure accurately when they say "cases are rising", when it will depend on all those variables like consulting a GP, or NHS direct, or being prescribed treatment, or being severly enough ill to go to hopsital. I am tired of worrying about sf and I will not go on like I have been. Angelscomeinthrees thank you again for helping me to balance out the pros and cons and probabilities and sorting out my anxieties and thank you also to tinkerbellbobby for showing me it's not just me who wobbles about on all this. OK I think that's enough from me tonight. I will not look at or read and news about sf except in passing from now on but will keep checking and posting to this blog because of the wonderful posts which have helped me so much.
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UM-there are a lot of us wobbly fruitloops on here-I'm a serious case-on an off-vaccine day today. Tomorrow may be an on-vaccine day! I guess I won't really make up my mind until I see my Immunologist next week-after all, he should know what's best for me given his specialist knowledge and applying it to my history and current chronic health blips!
I guess the difficulty with this vaccination is that SF is so mild in most cases, and the bad reactions are effectively very rare by the quoted percentages so we have the luxury of deciding whether we do or don't have it. Most people don't want to be ill, but the mildness hardly seems to justify having the vaccine. Had SF been far more dangerous, I doubt many people would even think about declining the vaccination. It almost seems unnecessary to have it, doesn't it?
Nothing gets people more in a stew than worrying about children. It's our primal protective instinct and it's extremely difficult to be calm and rational when there's a possible threat to a child. No parent wants to see their child suffer, whether from illness or vaccination, and the general mildness of the flu makes this decision even harder. I tried to suggest to my children of 21and 23 that they should have it, but one thinks she's already had it (she did have a very high temp for 24 hrs in July, but no other symptoms prior or after), and the other said he can't stand needles so won't bother! As they both have asthma and this time of year is especially bad for my son I'm fuming (maternal instinct in overdrive!), but they're adults so I have to accept their decisions.
The one thing that keeps persuading me that I should have the vaccination is that I have a 5 week commitment over Christmas and New Year that I really don't want to be ill for as it would let so many people down. I'd rather have the jab and suffer for a while now and get it over and done with.
At the end of the day, as Angel says, we all have to make our own decisions on this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and some of the wacky stuff on the Internet could be terrifying without the sense on here to balance against it. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do, apart asking that others refrain from doing this too. At least we have a choice in this country-others don't have the freedom of choice or freedom of speech. A priviledge I am guilty of forgetting sometimes!
Sleep well everyone!
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Universalmum, I am glad you've ben able to come to a decision that you feel comfortable with. I totally agree that this vaccine is being trialled, not proven - I would say from what I've read the KNOWN side effects are similar to MMR but the percentages of children affected are bigger. There is also the issue of whether children should get a full dose or not. I am completely with you in that the tipping point for me is that measles scares me to death whereas sf doesn't. I am glad I was able to help, I'm only in the position to do so because others on this blog have been able to help me so much and it is a very good place to hang out - before the summer I was so anxious I thought I'd need antidepressants. It really does sound like your daughter may have had sf already - I wish more had been invested in developing a blood test for antibodies but there we are. Anyway, hope you have a great weekend.
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Just to put the record straight re Paramedics following this piece of mis-information:
"And this guy isnt a health professional. He knows first aid. Thats what ambulance drivers are there for. They arent doctors or specialists. They are incredibly brave and talented people in most cases, (not so sure in this one), but they arent "health professionals" so to speak. Dont take advice on vaccines or whatever from them, as odds on they will know as little as your average citizen."
All NHS Paramedics are registered with the Health Professions Council (HPC) following an extensive training and registration period. Thus we are Health Professionals. If what we do is regarded as "first aid" then the population should be really worried - ask to have a look in a modern front line ambulance and see the equipment and drugs we use!
I do not offer advice on vaccines - what I do offer is an opinion based on informed choice. That's what we should all do - become informed.
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Then why not try actually offering an informed opinion rather than simply downloading junk onto here from other stupid websites. Offering an opinion means interpreting data!
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Gillie, Exactly. If people see the side effects (and the contents) and compare that with 1/7500 chance of dying from the flu then they can make an informed choice. Not everyone knows where to look for this information like yourself and I wouldn't say the European Medicines Agency website was stupid - afterall they have authorised the use of this vaccine. After studying various books, websites and seeking opinions I have come to the conclusion that the vaccine is more dangerous than the flu - simple!
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Dear Fergus,
Could you do an entry on the Mandatory Vaccination Protest that is being held in Westminster today (10am)?
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Paulisabout, my dad was lucky enough to have his life saved by a paramedic when he had a heart attack, they were literally injecting him with whatever drug is used as the attack happened which saved enough of his heart to keep him alive.
I do agree with you, it is important that the information about side effects is out there. However, what I can't get is what makes this vaccine potentially worse than other flu vaccines or MMR. The side effects all sound pretty similar. Do you object to all vaccination? If so how do you account for the dramatic fall in, say, measles cases, and the rise now that MMR vaccination has dropped off? What about vaccination in the developing world? Or for travellers going to the Far East? It would be helpful to get an idea of what it is that you have read from a scientific basis that puts you off the sf vaccine, rather than just a list of potential side effects that any well-informed parent should be expecting anyway.
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Why is a protest needed against mandatory vaccinations? I didnt think that was allowed anyway, or is there a sneaky little law being passed without us knowing?
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Just a couple more observations. The reason I got so scared about swine flu was the media hysteria that was being whipped up throughout the late spring and early summer. I would go to work in the morning and not hear anything all day and on walking through the city to catch my train home in the evening would see the screaming headlines of the London free papers and the Evening Standard "Swine flu mutates in London!" "Six year old dead from swine flu!" "Rise in death rate from swine flu!" to mention just a few kinds of more memorable ones. What was it that any of these desparate and despicable publications (or their paymasters) stood to gain from fomenting so much panic? It was almost impossible not to be scared witless. I almost didn't let my daughter go on her school trip because she would be mixing with other children from all over London in a public place. Mad blind fear. We all just get on with seasonal flu every year and it makes some of us badly ill and kills a few others but there are no headlines, there is no fuss, there is no panic. I have a healthy disrespect for all forms of authority and try very hard not to be a conspiracy theorist, but it just makes me wonder what else was being covered up at the time. I finally feel like I am no longer a wobbly fruitloop (love it Tigerjayj!)and please Angel I hope you don't feel any longer like you did then. Lol UM.
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No, UM, I don't, thank you, and it sounds as though you don't too :-). Interesting re the conspiracy theory...I don't do them myself but equally I have a pretty low opinion of the Govt and having spoken to various doctors etc who are in the front line I think swine flu was being hyped partly because it sold papers, but also because the Govt. became aware that the situation wasn't that serious long before any official announcements to that effect, so that they could be seen to take some credit for 'saving' us. I think this was reflected in Liam Donaldson's claim a while back to be 'close' to 'defeating' swine flu. But, I also know most of my fellow bloggers think this is utter rubbish. :-) I do think the Govt. have form on scaring us in order to get us to either support a piece of legislation or behave in a certain way and I honestly think they were happy with the hysteria in the press. Not a conspiracy theory, just an observation of how our authorities seem to work.
Tinkerbell, don't worry, it only applies to us mugs who still live in England. The JVIC or something have an agreement that the Govt. will act on every recommendation that they make and see that it becomes law. This means that in theory they could recommend an untested vaccine but in practice we can already see it won't happen. There is also a suggestion that they are going to recommend compulsory vaccination in children but as that isn't going to win anyone an election I don't expect to see that any time soon either. But I can see the frustration when children are beginning to die again from measles when it is a perfectly preventable illness.
My younger daughter has started with a temp and cough, typically after I'd had a rare day out without them so now I feel really guilty! Seems so far to just be a cold; I've thought so many times that at least one of the five of us has sf that I'm giving up trying to work out if we've had it or not.
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Angel, lol. If anyone listens to my "I reckon...." in our house, then our kids will have had SF ten times over. Hope you lil one is better soon. X
UM - Thats exactly how I felt when the news first broke re the pandemic. My Parents and DH thought I was going mad, lol, luckily finding this blog and reading Skyline knocked some much needed sense into me. Also, its good to hear from people who have seen past pandemics, they know its not the end of the world and to take most of the reporting with a pinch of salt. Its also good to find out that you arent the only one with these worries, esp when everyone else is looking at you like you are mad.
I feel fine about it now, I think most people are still struggling with the vaccine, but the SF itself isnt scaring people as it once did. Fear of the unknown I guess.
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Okay. Post time. Im going to stop mentioning the vaccine because there are far too many... sorry but, idiots, on this blog who seem to like to scare people into thinking they are being injected with monkey brain AIDS juice or something... So il leave that to you guy to figure out. My stance is the same. Vaccine perfectly safe, its the same as the seasonal flu shot, not needed for anyone fit and healthy, should be taken if you have respiratory issues, heart conditions, severe underlying health conditions, pregnant etc... But the average citizen shouldnt bother with it. If i was overweight i may reconsider... But im not. So i wont go down that route.
Back to dismissing the hype around SF (even though its practically died down completely for now). First story. http://www.thesundaily.com/article.cfm?id=38643 No SF deaths for 2 weeks in Malaysia. Strange pandemic.... Especially since 200 or so people are admitted to hospital with laboratory diagnosed cases every day. No deaths? When there are thousands of cases a day? Strange.
Next one. Its a link to a Brazilian story and is therefore written in Spanish so... Unless you speak spanish... Yeah. http://e-paulopes.blogspot.com/2009/10/pesquisa-indica-que-virus-da-suina.html And with rudimentary translation... Pesquisa feita pela Datafolha entre julho e o período de 9 a 11 de setembro permite estimar que pelo menos 20,5 milhões de brasileiros acima de 16 anos foram contaminados pelo vírus da gripe suína.
Research done by Datafolha between July and September 9-11 indicates that at least 20.5 million Brazilians over age 16 have been infected by swine flu
.
Pela amostragem da pesquisa, 51,3 milhões tiveram sintomas de gripe. Como, pela avaliação aceita pelo Ministério da Saúde, cerca de 40% dos casos de gripe correspondem ao tipo suína, chegou-se à estimativa de que as pessoas que teriam sido contaminadas pelo vírus H1N1 correspondem a 27% da população. A informação foi publicada pela Folha.
The research sample showed 51.3 million had flu symptoms. According to the Ministry of Health, about 40 percent of flu cases are due to H1N1, so the research led to the conclusion that 27 percent of the population had been infected with the virus. The finding was published by Folha.
Celso Granato, do Laboratório Fleury, que ajudou na preparação do questionário da pesquisa, não esperava tanto. Ainda assim a taxa poderia ser maior, se fossem ouvidas também pessoas com menos de 16 anos. Uma das características do novo vírus é o de que não poupa os jovens.
Celso Granato of Fleury Laboratory, who helped in preparing the questionnaire of the study, had not expected such a high figure. Even so, the rate could have been higher if the study had also looked at persons under 16.
Okay.... So we have 20 million SF cases in Brazil alone. Now... Brazil has had around 1200 deaths now. I wont bother looking for a source but its well known, just google it if you have an issue with that figure. Lets work out the mortality rate.
20 million divided by 1200 = 16,666
Now my initial estimates for the UK CFR (case fatality ratio) were 1 in 7500. But if these figures are accurate which i suspect they are (actually i think they are an underestimation, at least the cases figure is, a flu virus this contagious doesnt stop at 20m), then we are looking at... The lowest CFR, ive ever seen or heard of from a virus. Full stop. Bear in mind seasonal flu has a CFR of 1 in 1000. 16 times more virulent than the Brazilian figures and 7.5 times more virulent than the British figures...... Strange how we dont have the same coverage every year eh?
I mean.... Silly isnt it. Anyway. Any questions?
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Skyline, you really should start getting some sleep! lol
Could this possibly be then, the mildest pandemic we have ever had? Does anyone know of one that has caused so few deaths as this?
Do you still think this strain will only last the year Skyline, or do you think it will settle down to take the place of seasonal flu, if that can happen?
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Tiger - was just reading your post on how we are so lucky to be able to make choices. After watching the news, I feel ashamed to have been so worried about SF, when really, I am lucky that I have the luxury of worrying about something that will probably never affect me or my family at all.
What I am trying to say I think is, that if nothing else in life is bad enough to take your mind from worrying about things that arent actually happening/havent happened yet, then what a good life that must be.
I dont have to worry about feeding my children, keeping them warm etc, people with everyday struggles dont have time to contemplate worst case scenarios that might never come true.
How lucky we are to live these lives. x
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Skyline I am impressed. Although it actually is Portuguese (which I speak fluently and work in translating) I belive you are being rather modest about your rudimentary translation skills. Particularly at 3.36am. Brazil is a country you would expect a fairly high CFR in, given the lack of access to decent healthcare for the majority of people; although it has pockets of great wealth, a lot of its population live in fairly dire poverty, therefore poor diet, reduced immunity, greater chance of complications from illnesses etc. I've just been listening to the World Service where sf has barely had a mention for months now, and their main news item this morning is about the launch of a new campaign by Save the Children. They are focusing on India where the mortality rate per 10 live births in some of the poorest states is 1 in 10. Yes Tinkerbell I think we are all living in the lap of luxury here and although we all feel our anxieties keenly we are so so cushioned from some of the stark and awful realities faced by most of the world's people. But I think it all comes back to the stupid media hype and how easily it is to be led into believing something is "true" by the "news" we are fed every day. You really have to get out of the box to find a better slant on what is happening for most people in the world.
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I was asked and this is a copy but mirrors my views:
I don't vaccinate because....
1. Vaccines are made with toxic ingredients that don't promote health, such as 2-phenoxyethanol. According to the data sheet, 2-phenoxyethanol is 'harmful if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through the skin. May cause reproductive defects. Severe eye and skin irritant' - emc.medicines.org and http://tinyurl.com/r81nyd
2. The CDC pink book says that even vaccines listed as Thimerosal free still have Thimerosal in them, such as DTaP vaccine, HIB, DT, Hep A and B, influenza and meningococcal vaccines –
http://tinyurl.com/25s65v
3. Although the CDC say trace amounts of Thimerosal have 'no biological effect', vaccine manufacturers disagree. According to Merck, Thimerosal is Very toxic, inhalation, swallowing or absorption through the skin in very small amounts can cause considerable damage to health and may sometimes be lethal' -
http://tinyurl.com/qctanp
4. According to an NHS training pack for immunisers, the new GSK swine flu vaccine contains Thimerosal even though it was supposed to have been phased out for safety reasons –
http://tinyurl.com/or2szq
5. According to all vaccine manufacturers, vaccines have never been tested to see if they affect fertility, cause cancer or mutate into other illnesses. For instance, the data sheet for pneumonia vaccine says 'has not been evaluated for any carcinogenic or mutagenic potential or impairment of fertility' –
http://tinyurl.com/r4qfzs
6. Some vaccines are cultured on aborted foetal tissue which is a disrespectful use of human remains. MMR and varicella vaccines currently contain foetal tissue. proponents of vaccination argue that the tissue was from decades ago and no new tissue has been used since, but this is untrue. New cell lines are being developed. The latest one was from 1995 and unborn baby's retinal (eye) tissue was used to create flu vaccines, a new TB vaccine as well as malaria, rabies and experimental HIV vaccines, according to an FDA document –
http://www.tinyurl/op24br
7. Children produce antibodies to ALL ingredients in the vaccine, not just the viruses, so using foetal tissue in vaccines has caused some children to develop antibodies to their own brain tissue, as has been found in autistic children - Journal of Neuroimmunology, Institute Gulbenkian de Ciencia, Observatorio da ciencia e do ensino superior, Portugal, July 23, 2004.
8. The polio vaccine is cultured on monkey kidney tissue. This was later found to contain Simian Virus 40 (SV4O) which contaminated the polio vaccine and caused cancers. Despite this it was not withdrawn and the only safety measures that were put in place were monitoring the culture for 14 days to see if it turned cancerous and using tissue from the African Green Monkey instead of the Rhesus Monkey. However, SV4O has also been found in the African Green Monkey, according to the In Vitro medical journal. This tissue is now being used to make the new swine flu vaccine –
http://www.tinyurl.com/oy9a3e And http://tinyurl.com/or2szq
9. The risks of diseases have been hyped up to promote vaccination. For instance, the 1985 version of the British National Formulary states on page 385 that 'since mumps and its complications are rarely serious there is little indication for routine use of a mumps vaccine.' This was repeated in the 1986 version, yet only two years later, MMR was introduced and mumps is now described as causing meningitis and sterility.
10. The DOH say that 1 in 15 children will have' serious' side effects from measles, yet the 1996 version of 'Immunisation Against Infectious Disease' (the green book) says on page 125 ear infections and bronchitis occur in 1 in 15 cases. Neither of these conditions are 'serious'. The rate of encephalitis is also hyped. In the 1996 edition, it is quoted as occurring every 1in 5000 cases, yet in the 2006 edition this has risen to i in 1000 cases.
11. The Health Protection Agency (HPA) say that all deaths from measles in England and Wales since 1940 were in 'older people', except for one child death in 1992 and one death of a boy with a lung disease. Since the antibodies from MMR vaccine only last about 5 years, according to the journal Vaccine, vaccinating children is dangerous as it leaves them open to getting measles at an older age when the disease is more serious, so the vaccine programme may be contributing to the adult deaths –
http://www.tinyurl.com/r2kd8n And http://www.tinyurl.com/py8csj
QED....
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Just... Please man. Get your facts right. Not everything you read on infowars and prisonplanet is truth.....
Anyway. Personally. Ive never had a vaccine in my life other than tetanus, which i need due to my work. When i was a baby, didnt get one vaccine, parents dont trust them, and they arent needed. Didnt get any in school, college, anything. I dont even get local anasthetic when im at the dentist or what have you. Its not that i dont trust them, i just like to keep my body pure of everything.
See... People need to realize. Vaccines are responsible for saving... hundreds of millions of lives worldwide. Would you rather see all those people dead? Because they would be if it wasnt for their polio shots, flu shots , smallpox shots etc...
I dont approve of vaccines in otherwise healthy people. But for the needy... Absolutely necessarry. And the figures dont lie
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I am going to mention this and I don't want to be shouted down or insulted for mentioning what bothers me.
After reading the input from paulisabout i started thinking.
Just suppose there are harmful additions to the SF vaccine, but only as minute traces, left after all of the various processes have been completed. Just suppose that these minute traces, deemed 'harmless' enough on their own, have the potential to be harmful in accumulated amounts.
When anyone is vaccinated they continue living and breathing( we hope) and excreting urine and faeces. This vaccination program is supposed to be delivered to most of the population. Let us say a percentage of the population have the vaccine, let the figure be 30 million, just using as an example.
The minute traces of vaccine will be excreted by these 30 million people, into the sewerage system and into the rivers. This contaminated water will be picked up again by fish and fowl, animals and humans. Has the accumulated effect of these chemicals on the ecosystem been fully thought through?
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That's an interesting point Granny-if you add all the vaccinations done every year for everything that contains the same basic ingredients the numbers get so big my brain can't cope with them-too many 0's! Do these ingredients get excreted as they were prior to vaccination, or do they get broken down into something less environmentally dangerous by our bodies? Maybe our bodies store such things in various tissues or cells I wonder? Makes you think, doesn't it?
I found some info last week about Common Variable Immune Deficiency (CVID) which suggests that this condition struggles to make antibodies to certain vaccines like the Pneumonia one, and hence less immunity to the illness itself. The info didn't say the condition caused a bad reaction to the vaccination, just that protection is reduced. I guess that would mean a person with CVID could still get the illness, but maybe not as badly. I'm wondering if the same applies to other vaccines like flu. In which case, even a reduced antibody production is better than none at all so p'raps the SF vaccination would be a good idea.
I'm seeing my Immunologist later today so hopefully I'll get some better info 'from the horse's mouth' so to speak! In respect of this pandemic, it was only raised to level 6 because of it's breathtaking speed of onward transmission, not severity. I remember WHO stressing this point on a number of occasions. A vaccine may have been developed purely for a couple of reasons....to test how fast one could be developed, supplied and administered in a pandemic situation, and also because SF likes the lower lungs and in a minute proportion of people (some completely healthy) it can cause death. I guess the risk of vaccination is a worry, but if it saves even one life it's got to be worth doing.
Does anyone know if a vaccine has been developed for other nastier things like bird flu or legionnaires or SARS? I haven't heard anything, so maybe not.
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Grannie, it is supposed that the contraceptive pill is responsible for hormone changes in fish in rivers, so theoretically you could be right. But my feeling is that there is so much vaccination going on already that problems would have come to light before now. I understand where Skyline is coming from in keeping 'pure' but in today's world it is impossible - someone has already made the link between tuna and mercury levels, and the chemicals that have to be used in home furnishings, often by law, are terrifying. I think we have an attitude that somehow nature will deal with everything we throw at it, whether that is our bodies clearing out toxic chemicals or the ecosysytem clearing up pollution. If only. Oh, and incidentally, for those who think it's a good idea, taking artificially high doses of vitamin C isn't actually natural or sensible. If you are lucky your body will excrete what it doesn't need but it can be toxic. Better to up the vit C content in your diet.
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Paul, thats a very interesting list.
Skyline - i dont understand how you can advocate vaccines without ever having had one? Your different view from Pauls kind of falls flat when you admit to have never being vaccinated, doesnt it?
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I would just like to expand on my comment above, sorry...
What I mean Skyline, is that vaccinations are meant to be there to keep us healthy, such as the MMR etc, are you saying that we only need vaccinations if we are at risk in some way?
What about herd immunity (such as measles) if no-one accepted a vaccine, wouldnt we all be at risk? How can it be that only unhealthy people would need vaccinating? How would these diseases etc ever be wiped out if we all decided not to get vaccinated?
What would be the result of a vaccination free world?
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I agree with you, Tinkerbell. Have you read Roald Dahl on his daughter's death from measles? So sudden, and she had no underlying health conditions. Had the vaccine been available when she was little she wouldn't have died and Dahl later became a passionate advoctae of the measles vaccine. Some children do survive measles encephalitis but they are left with multiple disabilities. It simply isn't true that only the ill need vaccinating - something like measles or meningitis can overwhelm and kill even the healthy is such a short time. My friend could count the number of times her son had needed their GP on one hand yet he was barely ill for 12 hrs before he died. Obviously not every type of meningitis has a vaccine.
Herd immunity is important too, not least to protect adults like myself who have never had measles (I suppose I should have an MMR really). I hope that the chicken pox vaccine isn't rolled out here because that really is one illness you are better off catching in childhood. When I had my son my daughers were exposed to chicken pox and had I not had it in my teens my boy would have had no immunity, and neonatal chicken pox has a 20% mortality rate. Vaccination would need to be incredibly high to protect pregnant women and newborns.
My cousin took the point of view that vaccines were potentially damaging, so she decided that so long as enough people did get their kids jabbed she didn't need to bother. I think a lot of people who have taken the line, 'I didn't get my kids vaccinated and they've been fine' have benefitted from the fact that other people have had their kids vaccinated, thereby keeping exposure to a minimum. Of course when it comes to illnesses such as flu there generally isn't any need to vaccinate unless there is an underlying health problem, but I don't think that applies to measles. And hasn't polio been all but eliminated now thanks to vaccines? Or is there another reason?
When it comes down to it, refusing to vaccinate our children is another luxury that we have in our pampered Western lives, isn't it?
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Skyline, your posts have always given the impression of being so authoritative and now we learn that you are advocating vaccinations when you would never consider having one yourself - a little hypocritical don't you think?
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Angel-I had a natural immunity to Chicken Pox as a child, despite my mother's best attempts to make me catch it! I caught in from my children at age 30, and boy was I ill-spots outside and inside then Chicken pox pneumonia. My lungs are permanently scarred and I have been told to expect Emphesyma in later life. I now also have asthma. My daughter was also very ill, despite being 6 yrs old-was nearly hospitalised. She's had persistent waterworks and related problems since.
Sorry, but from my point of view, a Chicken Pox vaccination is very important. Wouldn't this also stop Shingles as my understanding is that you have to have had CP first to get Shingles? And didn't a large number of Native Americans die from our CP infested blankets many years ago? I don't think it's as mild as many people think, and can be just as dangerous as some other childhood illnesses. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
But again, that's my point of view only-I don't want to offend.
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BTW-saw my Immunologist this evening. He said his general advice to the immuno-compromised like me is that dead virus vaccines are ok, live virus vaccines aren't. Generally speaking, he would advise to have SF vaccinations, but under medical supervision.
For me, he has asked me not to have it until the tests he's done are all back, and then others may be needed too. Even then, he wants to do a thorogh profile of my immune system first, before making a decision for me. Then he wants to administer the vaccine himself, and keep an eye on me for a few days to be sure I'm ok.
But as I said, it all depends on the gallon of blood that was taken tonight!
Solves my indecision problem for me-phew! It was giving me such a headache!
Maybe the rule of thumb for anyone with an autoimmune condition would be to contact their GP or specialist in advance for advice?
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Tiger - if you see this - I agree 100% that CP isn't a mild illness my children suffered horribly with it and I had a grim time when I got it aged 13, although not as badly as you and yours. The issue for me is exactly the one you had - adults who aren't immune. If you have the CP jab in childhood you won't be immune as an adult, when it becomes far more dangerous, particularly for women of childbearing age. Had I not had natural immunity that I passed on through my antibodies my son would have been seriously ill and would possibly have died (1 in 5 cases of neonatal chickenpox are fatal). Obviously had all children been vaccinated then my girls may not have got it in the first place, but you are relying on a high take-up rate of vaccination and that isn't going to happen. Even if you keep up the jabs in children most won't bother as adults (I believe it is every five yrs to keep up immunity) and I don't see CP being eradicated like some other illnesses, so there will be lots of vulnerable people around. The only way the CP vaccine would give the level of protection needed would be to make it mandatory, otherwise people won't bother getting their kids jabbed - adding it into MMR will only make people more wary. I am concerned about my son as he will have a little immunity from the very mild bout he got as a newborn and that won't last him lifelong, so I would argue that there is a case for adolescents and adults to be tested for CP antibodies and then for those who haven't had exposure to have the jab, but it does require a committment to keep it up. CP should also be tested for in pregnant women the way rubella is and jabs given to women of childbearing age. And I am afraid I have no time at all for 'chicken pox parties' - a friend of mine had one, her son was under 1 and she invited lots of BABIES around and I honestly thought it was one of the most ignorant things I'd ever heard. Thankfully it wasn't CP at all so they were all fine! I can see entirely where you are coming from, particularly after what you have experienced, because no-one should think that CP is a 'mild' illness; my experience was that my NATURAL immunity probably saved my son's life and certainly prevented him from a serious illness that would have caused brain damage and other lifelong difficulties. I suppose in an ideal world all our kids would be jabbed and CP wouldn't be around but we know that won't happen.
Glad the immunologist has been able to help you, sounds like he is being very supportive.
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Well we seem to be discussing vaccines in general so how many of you saw this story in the Sunday express .. from a leading researcher of the vaccine !!
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/131817/Jab-as-deadly-as-the-cancer-
There has been great debate over this vaccine ...
" Jackie Fletcher, founder of the support group JABS, said: “We feel the Department of Health should suspend the programme temporarily until they have got to the bottom of this girl’s sad death.
“We have girls registered with us who believe they have been severely affected by the HPV vaccine, including semi-paralysis and muscle weakness. There is at the very least a question mark over its safety.
“This is an invasive procedure and should be removed from schools and put into the hands of GPs."
For regular bulletins on vaccines and health news then the sites at Naturalnews.com and Dr Mercola.com are very useful ..
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BTW-saw my Immunologist this evening. He said his general advice to the immuno-compromised like me is that dead virus vaccines are ok wholesale fashion , live virus vaccines aren't. Generally speaking, he would advise to have SF vaccinations, but under medical supervision.
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