Eye of the storm
It was once infamously said of British Rail that they had been caught out by the wrong type of snow.
(They were on standby for wet stuff. The soft, fluffy variety left them -and their ploughs - stumped.)
Now Scotland's transport minister, Stewart Stevenson, has landed in trouble as a result of the wrong type of weather forecast.
Apparently, the Scottish government had "prepared for one set of weather".
Along came 10cm of snow or therabouts. Result? A mass involuntary roadside sleep-over.
Just what, one wonders, are they expecting now? Light, airy clouds and unseasonable warmth? Look out the hurricane boards immediately.
To be fair, Mr Stevenson has apologised.
To be fair further, the weather has been exceptionally hideous.
But, as he has now learned, folk who have spent a night in their cars or have seen schools open only to close shortly thereafter or have struggled for hours to get nowhere are less than inclined to be generous in their sentiments.
They have to blame someone and, right now, the transport minister is in the eye of a storm (which, presumably, his forecasters did not see coming.)
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~46~RS~)
I'm 
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The problem here is simple...
Years and years of underfunding in this country's transport infrastructure by successive Westminster governments is finally coming home to roost.
Where else in the modern developed world are a country's two major cities linked by a dual carriageway?
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Actually the problem with snow wasn't soft and fluffy, it was small and powdery, which is great for getting into points
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I think one problem that hit the roads was the grit being washed away by a rain fall shortly before the snow hit.
It made the gritting less effective, where it had been carried out.
Nertwork Rail will have to answer for itself
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Whose responsibility is it to keep our main Motorways open in winter?
It used to be our Councils.
Then - Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown - all privatised these essential public services.
This meant that local Councils used to get money from Central government - and they augmented it to ensure roads were generally passable - except whne high winds caused drifts.
Essential Public Services - the cost was less important than the public need.
However, with Old Tory and New Labour Westminster Free-Market PFI dogma, the Private Sector took control.
I wonder Brian if you can see how much Amey have donated to New Labour causes over the past decade?
If you use too much salt and grit on the roads, then that is less in profit and a smaller Director's Bonus.
Why on earth aren't the BBC blaming Bear Scotland and Amey for letting Scotland down so badly?
Slainte Mhor
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The Minister has a point. While there may have been a public Met Office warning it arrived late on Sunday. Who in the general public would have seen that? And, it certainly didn't forecast the amounts of snow that was seen. Even on Monday morning the BBC were forecasting 5cm in the central belt!
Cheap stuff from Gray and co.
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"But, as he has now learned, folk who have spent a night in their cars or have seen schools open only to close shortly thereafter or have struggled for hours to get nowhere are less than inclined to be generous in their sentiments.
They have to blame someone and, right now, the transport minister is in the eye of a storm (which, presumably, his forecasters did not see coming.)"
First person they might want to blame is themselves.
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Unless the First Minister launches a salvage campaign, it looks like the transport minister is toast. Stewart's to make a statement to Holyrood tomorrow afternoon and he needs to at least get some coherence in his facts by then. Twittering about varaiation in weather forecasts is cringe making to listen to. I suppose the surprise is how long it's taken him to trip up so spectacularly. Mind you for John Swinney, at least there's another punchbag to pick on.
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According to Good Morning Scotland, the severe weather conditions were flagged up in the forecasts. Why then did presenter Gary Robertson and Kaye Adams elect to travel by car. They could could certainly have walked
home and taken a taxi or walked to get there. It did not take them long to blame the SNP for everything, as usual instead of the idiots who get the car out as a divine right as they both did and add to the chaos.
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If you want an accurate weather forecast for Scotland, then try the Norwegian Met Office. I think their HQ is probably a lot nearer to us than the Westminster-funded and Devon-based equivalent.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Much better than Gail and Co on the BBC.
Funny how a wee Country like Norway can work so well.
Slainte Mhor
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It may well be that inaccurate weather forecasts caused part of the problem. At 9.30 am (an hour after the heavy snow started in Glasgow) the BBC weather was saying we were currently experiencing light rain....
I totally agree with poster at point number 4 also, worryingly, as the weather started to get worse most people's first reaction is to jump in their cars.
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[8. At 1:21pm on 07 Dec 2010, bencruachan wrote:
According to Good Morning Scotland, the severe weather conditions were flagged up in the forecasts.]
The BBC was forecasting 'light snow showers', even as tons of the stuff poured from the sky! It's just a shame that more people who saw how heavy the snow was earlier in the day didn't just turn round and go home - that would have been the sensible thing to do, not wait until the rush hour, which is unbearable even in decent weather conditions! I can't believe they couldn't grasp how bad the weather was! They couldn't make an adult decision to go home early, and now they're complaining they couldn't get home at all - hardly the Minister's fault he wasn't there to personally lead them by the hand through the blizzard, is it?
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I can hear the Opposition Prayer adapted from the Middle ages
"Oh God protect us from the Norsemen and thank you God for not letting us be in charge in the bad weather"
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All this talk of "blame" is complete nonsense. The simple fact is that our weather is unpredictable. And you can't manage what you can't predict. We will never have the capacity to deal fully with abnormal adverse weather conditions for the simple reason that it is not cost-effective to devote potentially massive resources to a problem which only arises for an average of a few days each year.
Those who are whining about some supposed "failure" by a government minister should be asking some hard questions of themselves. What were they doing travelling in such conditions? Was their journey essential by any standards other than their own selfish concerns? How much additional tax are they prepared to pay so that the government can deal with their stupidity? Why should I pay for the idiocy of someone who, in the midst of an Arctic blizzard, "just pops out" to buy a bloody lottery ticket?
As for the unionist cabal at Holyrood, all I can say is that their petty politicking is no less disgusting for being sadly familiar. As has been said many times by many people, Gray, Goldie and that other one are a disgrace to our Parliament and our nation.
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I suggest that the opposition politicians baying for Scottish Government heads on any issue get down to earth and realise that this is not a problem that only affects Scotland. A headline today on CNN News:
"Heavy snow strands New York drivers for over 12 hours"
They faced exactly the same problem. How do you stop drivers that are already on the move from getting grid locked by accidents and then being stranded by snowfalls. If, as the opposition claim, the weather reports predicted exactly what would happen, then why did these drivers leave home in the first place? The other thing that seems obvious to me, is that there have been two weeks of severe winter weather, no one in their right minds should be venturing out in a vehicle without making sure that they have at least a basic survival kit that will keep them warm,hydrated and fed should they get stranded.
By all means have a review of procedures when this is all over to establish lessons learned. What we don't need right now is to divert energies away from dealing with the situation simply to satisfy the opposition's insatiable appetite for SNP blood.
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Surface pressure forecast A warm front coming in from the west on thursday morning with a risk of localised flooding from melting SNP snow.
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I am in agreement with post 4.
I would also ask why, on the BBC Scotland website, it is possible to update the regional 'live' boards frequently, but the "Latest Report from the BBC Scotland Travel Team" page only gets updated a handful of times a day?
For me, a combination of circumstances led to me staying at home and not travelling from SW Glasgow to West Fife (with the compulsory, involuntary, slumber party on the A80).
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I checked the BBC weather on line for Edinburgh before I went to bed on Monday at 1.15 a.m. and no snow was forecast.
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In the eight hours I was in traffic yesterday I saw a total of TWO vehicles with snow chains, mine and an AA van. People should stop looking for a scapegoat and look with shame at themselves. Get to Halfords and invest in some chains or to an Arnold Clark and get a pair of Autosocks (fabric version of snowchains that work brilliantly).
Get a grip people (literally!).
Robert
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Knowing these central belt Labour commissariats they probably didn't grit the roads on purpose just to give Gray something to talk about at FM's questions on Thursday.
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Several factors have contributed.
The infrastructure lessons learned over decades because regular snowfall across europe have not been studied by those who control the fleets of snow clearing vehicles in Scotland.
Why have so many regions now to depend on a handful of huge brand new snow clearing vehicles, inplace of scores of small ones? so many of the new machines are too large and heavy to negotiate through stalled traffic and become hopelessly snarled up.
Why are 4x4 farm vehicles which have the potential to assist in clearing minor roads not registered and utilised, by local communities as soon as a problem is forecast?
Why are people in Scotland discouraged from clearing snow using their own equipment on their own patch ?
why does Government not hold a stock of snow blowers around the country which can be used to keep major routes such as the A 9 and motorways open ?
why the reluctance to utilise the armed services and their engineers equipment to assist?
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22. Wee-Scamp
"Knowing these central belt Labour commissariats they probably didn't grit the roads on purpose just to give Gray something to talk about at FM's questions on Thursday."
That is a ridiculous suggestion!
Isn't it?
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It was odds on the opposition would blame the government - as always - for the problems caused by the weather, after all they do for most everything . It’s par for the course for Gray, Goldie and Scott.
The BBC online forecast for my area was quite different from my Hotmail forecast which was the more accurate. Weather forecasting is not an exact science. Witness the devastating hurricane in southern England in 1987 which killed over a dozen people. I think it was Michael Fish who predicted the night before the hurricane struck, “There will be no hurricane”.
If you want an up to date weather forecast look out your window – and use some common sense.
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typical nat nonsense on here.
take the praise when they get it right, blame everbody else when they get it wrong.
my! it must be great being perfect.
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The people to blame are those that got in their cars and started driving when the advice from everyone was "Do not travel unless completely necessary". Despite what employers groups and gung-ho capitalists would like you to think, this does not cover going to the office. Workers heading to hospitals, or nursing homes perhaps, but not office and call centre workers. They should have stayed at home as per advice and not travelled except for genuine emergencies.
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the bbc should review how they provide information for the scottish public. like it would be useful if they provided a morning news service here in Scotland rather than broadcast the breakfast program. it would be nice rather than ask viewers to send in pretty pictures they could interview emergency service providers to give the public real information rather than repeat pointing how the clyde had ice in it
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#13,
I turned back at 930 but it still took me 5 hours to make the 4 mile journey back to my house. So even by then it was too late.
I think you are being a bit unfair on the people who set off for home in the afternoon. Many public sector employees cant just walk away from their posts, certainly at the schools they needed council authorisation to close so many thousands of staff were stuck there. Mind you with the road network being gridlocked from 9am onwards its academic when they left, they would still have a horrendous journey home. Schools also have to consider the parents ability to actually get to the school if they close early. A no win situation all round.
I certainly don't blame the Scottish government for what happened yesterday, however I thought the transport minister's performance on Newsnight Scotland was very disappointing.
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28. kenstor
What a stonker!
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It’s lovely for the journalists, isn’t it? Lots of snow – everything grinds to a halt – and they’ve got lots to report. Easy money, and they can keep it going for days.
A crisis! Someone’s to blame. Who’s got a complaint – who’s blaming the Scottish Government? ’Stewart Stevenson has refused to offer an apology’ – BBC Radio Scotland’s tendentious assumption, at 07.00 this morning, that there had been some sort of failure, that something could have been done. Let’s talk to Iain Gray! Let’s talk to Tavish Scott! Let’s find a Tory! That’ll be three to one against the SNP – so there must have been some dreadful mistake. There must be an enquiry – that’ll fill a few more reports.
Could there be a tragedy? Has someone died? Oh, please let someone die! Then we’ll have another enquiry to demand, and postures of outrage to strike if it doesn’t happen, and reports on it if it does, and maybe an SNP political obituary to write, but if not, an aftermath of doubt to encourage - ‘questions are still being asked’. Easy money: the exercise is a routine one and well–practiced.
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Why is the BBC defending the indefensible?
The Met office got it wrong (again)
The weather forecast put out on the BBC on Sunday, predicted light
snow turning to rain.
There is no point in blaming the Scottish Government, which the BBC seemed
to be gunning for. As the Government, along with councils rely on the weather
forecasting provided by the Met office and broadcast on the BBC
We’ve had predictions of a ‘BBQ summer’ that didn’t happen, then we’ve had
‘Mild November and December’, again wrong.
The only time that the weather was correctly given, was when it was actually happening!
Elsewhere, in countries more equipped (as you would think), the exact same problems occur
Upstate New York saw drivers stuck for 12 hours. Did they call for their Transport officials to resign
Or did they just get on with it?
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What was clearly missing yesterday was a strategic and co-ordinated response and for that the executive has got to be held to account. The very fact that the transport minister has had to apologies for making idiotic and mis-informed statements proves this very point.
The forecast on Sunday was for heavy snow on Monday morning and the fact that the local authority's and emergency services across multiple regions were unable to deal with this demonstrates a lack of resource and overall leadership from the executive.
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Interesting tactic, trying to shift the "blame" on to the Beeb, the Met, unnamed weather pundits, BEAR, commuters, etc. The issue seems to be a bit more basic with a minister who seems to have very little control over this part of his ministerial portfolio. He's in the firing line and Alec has to decide how to save him. Stewart hasn't the personal style to save himself from the bearpit in Holyrood tomorrow afternoon.
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There have been calls for an enquiry, which I think needs to happen. But it needs to be a root-and-branch review of Scotland's preparedness for this kind of weather, and not just an excuse to say, "It's aw the government's fault".
The advice given to motorists needs to be more granular than it is now. "Don't drive unless essential" isn't good enough. How about telling us not to drive without winter tyres on the wheels and snow chains in the boot, ready to be used? How about banning articulated lorries from the roads, and banning non-4x4s when conditions are especially bad?
It also needs to look at whether drivers should reasonably expect roads to be completely free of snow and ice, particularly below -8ºC where grit becomes ineffective. If our councils only had to keep the depth of snow down to a reasonable level, so that regular cars don't become beached, rather than ensuring that the roads are black, then they would be able to keep much more of the road network passable with the same amount of resources.
The problems over the past 24 hours seem to be less about the weather itself, and more about people going out unprepared, getting stuck, and preventing those people that *are* prepared, not to mention the snow ploughs and gritters, from getting where they're going.
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#29 Go bzck and reread Sunday night's forecast. It was the Northern Isles Fife and NE that the heavy snow was forecast not the wider area affected.
The Met Office screwedup big time. The authorities planned on tne basis of that error hence the severity of the problem. The BBC compounded through shoddy single source press release only research andreporting
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#36 is quite right. Perhaps the BBC will repeat its forecasts from Sunday evening and Monday morning - then the BBC can perhaps ask Gray and co for their views? Or perhaps the BBC won't ...
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It was, of course, only a matter of time.
Things have been moving steadily towards this pinnacle for some time, and one wonders where the levels of critical culpability can go from this crescendo?
Yes - it is official (according to the BBC and opposition parties at least)
The SNP are now to blame for the weather!
Look out for a comensurate swell in SNP support around May, when the BBC reports the first of the annual "Scotland Sizzles" or "Methil Hotter than Malaga" headlines of 2011. Mr Stevenson, or perhaps his successor, will be a hero.
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Post number 40. Loved it, Jackie must have read it and had second thoughts
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So, let me get this right: a few days ago, people were joking "I wonder when people will start blaming the SNP for the weather?"
Today, people are blaming the SNP for the weather.
Seriously, people? Seriously?
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My 36 has been removed... preumably you are not allowed to publish the truth.
I will try again. Listen to a recording of GMS between 7 and 8 yesterday am and ask yourself if the forecater on the BBC got it wong... the ,evidence, in white,and white, is there for all to see. Truth is sometimes inconvenient.
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37.
Apart from his facile and self-satisfying jibe about Stevenson's statements being 'idiotic and misinformed' Martin's comment might induce more respect if he were able to demonstrate that he knew how to use an apostrophe. That's always a sign of ignorance, and induces doubt in whatever is written - within what limits of knowledge is the subject matter being addressed?
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And here we go again with the finger pointing etc.!
Germany have now made it law that all cars MUST have winter tyres during the winter weather - wake up people, these cut stopping distances by a third in lower temps, even on cold tarmac. Can we at least adopt the continental attitude, where roads will be closed to those that do not have properly prepared vehicles, i.e no winter tyres/chains get off the road. That would stop artic lorries jack-knifing all over the motorways and idiots in wine bar hopping 4x4's sliding about on daft low profile tyres!
I have been able to trundle about from the first snow flake with no drama in my normal 2wd car fitted with the correct tyres for the season. I always carry a snow shovel and a bag of rock salt in the boot but so far I've only needed those to help others out.
Yes our councils could plough more and grit more, but we have to actually be responsible for ourselves!
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Most local and national government doods take monday and/or friday off nowadays.
A nice job if you can get it, no effect on your wages or your pension either.
A whole bunch of them must have stayed snuggled in their duvets on monday morning while the world fell to bits outside.
Bringing in all the schools...then canceling all the buses...really helped to make things better too...lol
An independent Scotland...oh dear what a wake up call for anyone doing any fence sitting.
A nation run by squeaky glove puppets and blustering balloons was laid bare to the world on monday morning.
...no doubt their contingency plans in the event of a nuclear attack will be far more effective and co-ordinated...
I seem to recall one of the loveable glove puppets saying
"...lessons will be learned..."
where the previous week of snow chaos was concerned.
The main lesson learnt appears to be...stay in bed on monday mornings.
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No wonder people despair of the Scottish Parliament. It seems now that "Opposition parties want probe into Scots travel chaos".
Allow me to help.
It snowed. Lots of people took no notice and got stuck.
End of.
Now can we get on with other more important things.
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#35 They just got on with it. They haven't got the SNP to blame!
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On a more strategic note.
Scotland needs a three lane motorway between Edinburgh and Glasgow.
It's the only part of the main UK road network not yet with three lanes...spending scarce resources on trendy projects like the Edinburgh tram are keeping us back.
A country stuck in the slow lane...and it was all too obvious on Monday.
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The SNP are clearly not responsible for the weather however they are resonsible for how the country deals with it or not in this case. The executive have buried their head in the sand or should that be snow and left the emergency services and local authority's to deal with it with no visible co-ordinated approach until after the fact.
As for the forecast the BBC website on sunday afternoon showed heavy snow in the East of scotland up until Monday lunchtime and heavy snow in the West up until early evening. Not usually a fan of BBC weather forecasts but in this ocassion can't see where you got it wrong.
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The reason for this chaos is self-evident: remedial action is being operated on the basis of a cost/benefit analyses - ones which are skewed far too far towards saving money, with no wider consideration of the huge cost to the economy of inaction. Now ministers are attempting to divert blame to the Met Office. Are we really expected to believe that measures are predicated solely upon the opinion of a single advisory source? - it's laughable, or would be, were it not tragic.
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In less rabid mode than some correspondents with pre-defined agendas, I'm prepared to go with a combination of events and circumstances
In defence of the road contractors, councils, government and broadcasters....
1. Conflicting Weather Forecasts in advance certainly never helped
2. At least some Pre Rush Hour Gritting was rendered ineffective by rain
3. Timing and volume of the snow, arriving once roads were already full
4. Little that could be done to retrieve the situation once gridlocked due to plough/gritter access issues.
5. A number of poorly prepared individual travellers & vehicles in such questionable road conditions
Where the finger can be pointed at these same agencies
1. Lack of clear advice as the snow actually arrived regarding cancelling non-urgent journeys
2. Poor communication in general as the situation developed. Leaving drivers in the dark regarding how best to proceed.
3. Confrontational attitude shown by some instead of pulling together for the greater good.
4. Lack of clear and prompt advice on whether to stay with cars, or how to abandon them responsibly.
I don't think anyone comes out of this well. While I'd include Stewart Stevenson in that mix, I'd add in certain broadcasters, road agencies, councils and some individual travellers as well (though I sympathise with the majority here as they were given little useful direction!)
Summary -
More Grit;
Better & Faster Advice;
Add some personal responsibilty.
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Niether captains of politics or captains of industry aka BEAR/AMEY/LOCAL AUTHORITIES or any other private contractor will be held to account. What we will get is another waste of tax payers money in the form of a public enquiry! Just thank your lucky stars we are not involved in a major war conflict, soldiers would be rationed to 5 bullets each....If there are any sackings / resigning it will be tokenist!
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#46. At 3:15pm on 07 Dec 2010, Douglas Daniel wrote:
"So, let me get this right: a few days ago, people were joking "I wonder when people will start blaming the SNP for the weather?"
Today, people are blaming the SNP for the weather.
Seriously, people? Seriously?"
Yeah, I know. Me and my big mouth...
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I do not for one second blame the government for the problems of yesterday. I do however find it difficult to accept that Mr Stevenson found it impossible to say sorry to the motorists trapped in their vehicles. He was asked 6 times last night to say sorry, but avoided actually saying the words. He quite rightly praised the work of services involved. This morning grudgingly he finally managed to say sorry, what was so hard. The word "sorry" seems to stick in the throats of the SNP. This is the 3rd time they have baulked at saying sorry. Mr Swinney, Mr Stevenson and Mr Salmond all have had to say sorry. The fact that they do it so grudgingly does not go unnoticed. The snowfall, might turn out to be a windfall for the other parties. Weather permitting, I am sure people will be watching and listening very closely tomorrow to Mr Stevenson's statement.
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47. gunnergoz
Blizzard warning!
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#37 - "What was clearly missing yesterday was a strategic and co-ordinated response and for that the executive has got to be held to account. The very fact that the transport minister has had to apologies for making idiotic and mis-informed statements proves this very point."
Whilst I agree Stewart Stevenson's performance on newsnight leaves a lot to be desired (his sentiment was fine, just put across in quite an insensitive way), we have to accept that the only way we're going to get a strategic and co-ordinated response to anything happening in Scotland is to seriously consider the involvement of local authorities.
We've seen it in education, health, policing and now transport. Having umpteen local authorities, each with their own hierarchy and priorities just isn't working. Every major road that crossed an LA boundary suffered yesterday. M74, M73, M80, A8, A73, the list goes on. Either make each LA responsible for a whole road, regardless of how many counties it crosses, or centralise that responsibility. This piecemeal approach just isn't working.
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What a shame we cant divert all the hot air generated here and at Holyrood to someplace more useful, like the M8 !
Absolute disgrace that both Glasgow and Edinburgh airports cant cope with some snow !
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#58 good summary - but it is the job of the executive to co-ordinate these issues at a strategic level and to use the broadcast media to deliver the correct message.
Unfortunately when your in the position of responsibility you have to take the knocks and criticism when it goes wrong and there can be no doubt that yesterday it went very wrong!!
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Setting aside the rights or wrongs of the weather forecast, the snow fell at exactly the wrong time - most people had probably had a look, thought it was ok to get to work, and set off. Snow started at 8.30, when the roads are already busy, and after a few people have accidents / get stuck, the gritters can't get through to clear it.
I set off later, at 8.45, when the snow was already falling, and took ages to reach the M8, saw it was bad so turned at the top of the slip road and came home. I spent an hour coming home in one queue right behind a gritter going back to the depot (or at least in that direction). That was an hour when he was stuck in other traffic and not gritting. When we crossed the M8 further back, there was another gritter sitting still on the motorway, in stationary traffic.
I'm not exonerating the authorities, but they can't cover the whole network instantly, and they can't get to the second bits etc because of the volume of traffic (obviously making "essential journeys only" who are already stuck.
As others have said, people need to realise what "essential journey" means.
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#62 - there we have it, the evidence at 06.10 and 06.30 -'5cm or so, with 10cm on hills'. We're not on hills but had around 20cm. And not featured in the headlines. Come on then BBC, fair's fair - please ask the politicians what they make of the BBC forecasts? We'll look forward to this.
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When are us Scots going to wake up and smell the haggis !!?
We are just reaping the fruits of our own political apathy.I am not going to blame anyone under the upturned boats in the East(don't even go there),we are ALL to blame as we just sit back and take the mince they throw at us.
The events yesterday happened last winter but once the thaw is on our anger seems to defrost along with it.I don't care what they say about wrong snow,wrong grit or snow landed at wrong time.We all pay our income/road taxes AND council tax and deserve better.The great fallacy that"there is no money due to the recession and we need cutbacks "is being drilled into us daily and we seem willing to accept and believe it..what would it cost to have a contingency plan so that Scotland AND the rest of the UK can at least get to either work/home/appointments even when the weather is "unpredictable"..
At the same time we can bale out Eire..spend fortunes building aircraft carriers that we can't afford to put planes on ... spend fortunes cowtowing ?? to the US of A following them around the world like a castrated Bulldog fighting wars that will never be won and putting our servicemen and own country in mortal danger.
Lets get our priorities right..Get out of the wars ...cancel the warships(build gritters?) ...tell the yanks to save the world themselves (they are after all making a good job of itAND I bet if the Loch at Faslane was blocked they would find the money to grit it).
....AND GET SCOTLAND MOVING AGAIN!!!!.......
ps.Anyone losing wages after yestersdays fiasco should raise an action against Holyrood and your local authority to recover the money ..I would but can't be bothered.
Dave.
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I slipped on the ice on Friday night, twice. I blame the Scottish Government, because they should have warned me - how was I supposed to know that over-consumption of alcohol at the staff Christmas party, followed by walking two miles in the snow and ice in non-sensible shoes would lead to me falling over?
I demand an enquiry. Why was I not told the exact steps to follow in bad weather conditions, and forced to act upon them?
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Simple - the met office got it wrong. The BBC reported wrong information. So what's new?
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In Glasgow, technically it is Labour that caused the problems. Labour run Glasgow City Council... what were they doing to sort the situation out?
Very little as far as I could see... have only seen one gritter in Glasgow City Council for 2 days... It went one way down High Street!
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All the people saying blame the drivers who left for work in conditions where they should have been staying at home should remember that in actual fact when a lot of drivers left home to go to work it was RAINING and there was no mention of blizzard conditions, severe weather warnings or roads chaos.
Where I do think the Scottish Government will have to learn lessons is over communication when these kind of freaky weather conditions hit. I was listening to weather reports from lunch time onwards until the wee small hours looking for updates on whether it was safe for me to head home, and then after i got home for updates so i could advise friends and family and there seemed to be no detailed information at all. At one point BBC Radio Scotland complained they couldn't get any up to date detailed information from any authority to pass on to people listening for news and advice.
It is obvious in hindsight that from lunchtime onwards people should have been prevented from adding to the queues / gridlock on sections of the M8, M73, M74, M80, M876 etc and those roads should have closed except to emergency services, AA, RAC, gritters and snow ploughs and people in areas like Lanarkshire, Stirling, Falkirk etc should have been told to make alternative arrangements for the night rather than try and get home and get stuck for 12+ hours, and this would have allowed the police and councils and Amey and Bear Scotland to concentrate on clearing the motorways and getting cars and lorries moving again... or towed to the hard shoulder to free up the carraigeways again.
Going by the travel updates on the BBC Scotland website it is looking like people on the M73 and M74 and A80 have had a real raw deal, as there has been almost no change in the status of "severe" incidents there for almost 24 hours.
It also seems obvious that there are hotspots where like the area around Harthill on the M8 where if that shuts down the whole M8 grinds to a halt, where it surely pays to have a dedicated gritting and ploughing team working round the clock on that stretch to keep it open.
Most people would also work on the basis that motorways and dual carriageways would surely be gritted and ploughed unlike B roads and that the safest way home would have been to head for the major roads and for once this has been the worst option.
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#56 Martin... No the SNP are not responsible, it is the responsibility of the Local Authorities! Therefore in Glasgow, Labour are responsible.
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I hate politics, I really do. Its such a circus of nonsense, individually you'd never accept any of the chat we are subjected to and when you add the media's take on things well, the mind boggles.
I left leith at 9am on Monday morning for my cross-town commute (normally done on a motorcycle but in a 4x4 in this weather.) I got to the top of Leith Walk and turned back not because of the snow but because of ill-suited vehicles for the conditions.
It seemed to me the problem was, it all happened at the same time, people went out in their cars (in an already overburdened road system with only single lanes available where double lanes usually sat) then it snowed heavily again.
You can have the best snow ploughs available but if the roads are already stuffed with cars...
I lean toward the SNP in this, blaming the government here is a bit off, the transport guy has to shoulder some of it sure, but the councils have to take some of the blame and I'm cynical enough to appreciate that maybe, just maybe (because I suspect its happened on other occasions) that perhaps Councils led by parties not of an independant slant might have, shall we say 'let' things go a wee bit in the knowledge questions would be asked of the Scottish Government. Not that I wish to propogate any conspiracy theories of course or entertain the notion that certain members of our fine society can't tell the difference between a council responsibility and a Government one, although I'd never say councillors & MSP's not of the governing party would have such a low opinion of their electorate's knowledge and understanding of things like city centre or trunk road responsibilities or Calman or GERS or the SVR or FFA or Barnett et al...
Anyway, I digress.
This constant disingenuous mission by the other parties in Holyrood to turn anything and everything against the Scottish Government is quite tiring. Shoot me in the head for saying it, but being Scottish myself, I sort of feel defensive of the Scottish Government and oddly, that is despite of it currently being SNP led. If it was a Tory, libdem or Labour... ok, not labour in power working for Scotland's absolute best interests; I'd defend them too.
Over and above that, a sense of personal responsibility I think would've been far more useful in the conditions than a snow plough.
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I really had to stop myself throwing something at the radio this morning. This whole mood of the public this morning was stoked and doused with white spirit by the reporting.
Lets look at some facts.
It snowed during rush hour when Everyone was desperate to get back to work and school.
People were under pressure to get back to work through lost pay and the kids having Cabin fever.
The news was full of stories about how we must get our kids back to school, its a disgrace they were off so long.
More cars on the roads due to the rail infrastructure being unfit for use. Point heaters cant cope!
(Railway Infrastructure controlled by Network Rail - UK Level!!)
Snow clearing of the roads also in privatised hands.
Idiots going out when they shouldn't
BUT EVERYONE IS ENCOURAGED TO BLAME ONE MAN.
How Sad
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I look forward to Labour introducing their helicopter gritters and undercarriageway heating systems, if they're so sure politicians can seriously prevent events like this. When temperatures are subzero the snow is going nowhere, and another brisk 60 minute fall will be enough to cause chaos. Which government was it that hived off the road maintenance contracts from the public sector anyway?
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As you say Mr Taylor,people have to blame someone so maybe they should start with themselves and take some personal responsibility.
As to the political dimensions of this:
"Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray said a "clear warning" should have been issued to the public after reports of severe snow on Sunday night and Monday morning. Why were people not warned off the motorways when they were getting stuck early on Monday morning?”
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SO Mr Gray: Why did people themselves not notice it was snowing before they left home? I live in a major commuter town and it was snowing heavily here at 7am when people are starting out for work so what did they do to prepare for their journey? Did they check the road reports before leaving? Apparently the police did not issue a warning about avoiding unnecessary travel. Why not – wrong forecast?
Ian Gray went on to say: "The Scottish government only called an emergency meeting late on Monday evening. It was only then the transport minister issued helpline numbers on television. This was more than 12 hours after many people had been stranded."
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SO Mr Gray did these stranded people have access to TV? What sort of performance has the BBC put in particularly getting information out to people via the radio? Has it been adequate? What lessons will they learn from this. Will the BBC hold an inquiry?.
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Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, Tavish Scott, said: "I was briefed by the Met Office in my living room courtesy of my television. I knew that heavy snowfall was predicted at the weekend, as did many other mere mortals. Ministers certainly had time to plan for yesterday's chaotic scenes.”
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SO Mr Scott those ‘mere mortals’ who were similarly briefed in their living rooms what planning did they do? Check the road reports perhaps? Look out of their window at the snow falling perhaps? Did they take a spade with them, a flask of hot tea, a blanket, some food (Biccies and/or Chocolate)? What was their state of preparedness? There was enough said at the start of the year about how motorists should be prepared for this type of weather.
Mr Scott said: "It is unbelievable that Stewart Stevenson has blamed the government's poor performance on weather forecasts. This excuse is even more slippery than the roads.”
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Some weather forecasts showed the band of snow over the central belt some showed it just south of the central belt and heading south? As to 'Poor performance' on the government's part: How exactly were the Government meant to get gritters and breakdown lorries passed all the stuck and abandoned cars? Fly them over the top of the traffic?
When Mr Scott and Mr Gray are interviewed about this will any of these points be put to them? That isof course a rhetorical question.
While Graham Birse, the managing director of Edinburgh Chamber of Commercechamber's said: "With up to 30% of people unable to get to work today, the last thing we need is an inquiry, as some parties have been calling for. .... And we have plenty of capability to deal with the situation."
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From what I could see on TV there were white-out conditions early in the morning in some places. Not even gritters can move in that and to try to blame the Government for the weather which is basically what the opposition ‘attacks’ amount to is political point-scoring gone mad and party political opportunism of the worst sort – the sort that closes down meaningful discussion and lesson learning from the events. Turning it into a political football is not in any way helpful in promoting any reasoned examination of what can be done in the future. But the bottom line is that if traffic becomes stuck because of snow, jack-knifed lorries, and abandoned cars and this can happen in the best of weather and once traffic comes to a halt this prevents rescue and breakdown services getting through.
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#58. At 3:37pm on 07 Dec 2010, dear_wendy wrote:
"In less rabid mode than some correspondents with pre-defined agendas, I'm prepared to go with a combination of events and circumstances
In defence of the road contractors, councils, government and broadcasters....
1. Conflicting Weather Forecasts in advance certainly never helped
2. At least some Pre Rush Hour Gritting was rendered ineffective by rain
3. Timing and volume of the snow, arriving once roads were already full
4. Little that could be done to retrieve the situation once gridlocked due to plough/gritter access issues.
5. A number of poorly prepared individual travellers & vehicles in such questionable road conditions
Where the finger can be pointed at these same agencies
1. Lack of clear advice as the snow actually arrived regarding cancelling non-urgent journeys
2. Poor communication in general as the situation developed. Leaving drivers in the dark regarding how best to proceed.
3. Confrontational attitude shown by some instead of pulling together for the greater good.
4. Lack of clear and prompt advice on whether to stay with cars, or how to abandon them responsibly.
I don't think anyone comes out of this well. While I'd include Stewart Stevenson in that mix, I'd add in certain broadcasters, road agencies, councils and some individual travellers as well (though I sympathise with the majority here as they were given little useful direction!)
Summary -
More Grit;
Better & Faster Advice;
Add some personal responsibilty."
--------------------------
A very comprehensive and measured summary with which I totally agree.
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MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP.
Here is Radio Scotland's weather forecast on the morning of 6 December from BBC iplayer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wck5q/Good_Morning_Scotland_06_12_2010/
Simply move slider to 8 mins and 25 seconds in for the forecast.
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Would recommend listening to Good Morning Scotland on the iPlayer for the 6th December, apart from the regular bulletins of traffic and weather, worth listening to an interview with Ian Robertson of the Aberdeen Met office, who clearly states that it would be only 2 to 5 cms of sleet and snow yesterday, which would clear by the afternoon - interesting.
I think Gary Robertson forgot about that when he was interviewing the Transport Minister later last night.
Cant give the link,but can be found on the BBC website
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Im sorry Rangers won the league.
It certainly wasnt my fault though.
Stevenson is being hounded by the media for nothing other than cheap political points.
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#62 and #80 - there we have it, the evidence at 06.10 and 06.30 -'5cm or so, with 10cm on hills'. We're not on hills but had around 20cm. And not featured in the headlines. No big warnings from the BBC.
Come on then BBC, fair's fair - please ask the politicians what they make of the BBC forecasts? We'll look forward to this.
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The media politics of bad weather forecasting?
This year the Met Office had to tender to become the BBC's provider of weather reports for the first time since 1922!
http://www.independent.co.uk/extras/big-question/the-big-question-should-the-bbc-drop-the-met-office-as-its-official-weather-forecaster-1872008.html
The Met Office won the 'best value for money' contract in July 2010.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2010/pr20100707b.html
BBC: "Overall the new contract delivers better value for money."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/2010/07/the-met-office-wins-the-bbc-we.shtml
The Telegraph was more sceptical:
"However, it was announced yesterday that the Met Office has signed a new deal, although it is understood to involve a "significant" reduction in cost, according to BBC sources."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/7877953/Met-Office-wins-new-BBC-weather-contract-despite-inaccuracy-claims.html
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Edward2010
To be precise you need to listen at 1:15:30 into the broadcast
"Sleety, outbreaks of snow. accumulations of 2-5cm in west or 1-3cm in the East, locally 10cm OVER the HILLS"
... and every post I put on about this incorrect forecast and misleading interview is being pulled by the mods after initally passing moderation because someone is complaining about it.
Listen to the interview it will inform your decision as to whether or not people were given the 'wrong' message about upcoming conditions.
The BBC website said light snow showers ending between 9 and 12 replaced by white cloud then fog and it stayed that way all day.
The BBC and the Met Office got it wrong so its little wonder that the authorities response was initially inadequate and so many people caught out.
Will the person with the agenda to supress the truth now accept I have been right all along and let others read my comments? Probably not...
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Oh definitely the Government's fault... they definitely should have seen it coming and prevented it happening....
However, wouldn't it be interesting to see how many of those people stuck really were making essential journeys and how many could have stayed at home like they were advised....
And how many of the drivers had fitted their cars with winter tyres or were still running around on pretty worn out summer tyres having not really bothered to prepare their vehicle for bad weather....
Why should the government be critisised for not being prepared, when the people can't be bothered to be.
You wonder why Europe doesn't get stuck with a bit of snow.... its the law in most European countries to use winter tyres in bad weather and most have two sets and change them when the weather gets bad.
I bet there would be uproar here if anyone suggested we change our laws to reflect that, probably citing some nonsense about the nanny state and how dare the government dictate that we should spend all this money on meeting the rules. European people tend not to stop in the snow because they themselves prepare and don't rely on the government to nanny them.
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#86 - well said, look forward to BBC and opposition parties now canging their attack/questions. Come on BBC, here's a good story for you.
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Heres another thought on those being "encouraged" to git to work, or else.
I use to work for a very large American organisation, who at one point in the nineties, were successfully sued by an employee who had a serious accident whilst travelling to work in conditions which with hindsight would not have been advised. The employee successfully demonstrated that pressure to get to work in the face of disciplinary action influenced their decision to travel.
How long before this madness arrives here?
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Snow. Get over it guys. Go sledging or something. It happens to us all. The people in the central belt complaining must be the only folk on planet earth who rejoice at an extra days holiday for a wedding for the next but one on the throne to a commoner like me, and then complain because they can have more days off for a much better and more fun reason.
The only reason the BBC is getting upset is because it is in the central belt and it affects them. They did not seem so bothered last year when the higlands were snowed in for more than a week. The A9 was snowbound for a week, the trains were cancelled because of a derailing, the A96 was snowbound and all ferries were cancelled. Don't seem to remember the same style of reporting at that time, or calls for any of those in charge to resign. I seem to remember the woman in the lighthouse who went to get her turkey at Christmas being snowed out until sometime in February. My! how she must have a wee smile on her face just now.
The heavy snow you got was forcast by the BBC website a few days earlier for the highlands. The 3 hourly updates from about Friday all said light snow at 9pm on Sunday and heavy from 3am onwards. You got our snow - and WE WANT IT BACK! I want a day (or 10) off work to go sledging!
I can't believe the fuss from the previous week, complaining that schools were shut and teachers should be frog marched to school as a public humiliation, and now they are complaining in some areas that children were kept in school overnight. At Easter earlier in the year there was a fatal crash with senior school pupils when their bus slipped on the ice on a motorway in the Glasgow area, and the resultant arguements were quite rightly that in such conditions the common sense of the driver should be not to make the trip. What has changed in the last 8 months? Why is it OK now to risk further accidents on the road. Get real. If it snows that badly, stay in and watch telly or go and sledge locally. Enjoy life. Nobody will thank you for your efforts to sit in a car for 14 hours at a time. Most will just think you are daft.
As for a scapegoat ... Personnaly, I can't see it being any different from our snow last year, except it is over a much smaller area. Jim Murphy last year said on his SoS blog taht the boys in the Nitshill depot were doing a sterling job keeping the country moving (I assume he meant the whole country?). He even visited them to show his solidarity with the workforce, took advantage of a good wee photo operchancity prior to the election I would assume, asked what the SNP were doing to help and then oversaw the transfer of the gritting and salt supplies to the South of England somewhere with his boss in charge. The boys in Nitshill are probably still there ... the machines available are probably still there ... the snow is still falling and white all over ... it seems to me there is only one change in the conditions ... Jim Murphy is not in charge.
IT'S JIM MURPHIES FAULT.
Official
If he had not voted for the caring sharing governemt and for a place on the opposition benches he would still be in charge and would have sorted everything out with a wee visit and a transfer of control to a territory outwith our control.
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[56. At 3:35pm on 07 Dec 2010, martin wrote:
The SNP are clearly not responsible for the weather however they are resonsible for how the country deals with it or not in this case. The executive have buried their head in the sand or should that be snow and left the emergency services and local authority's to deal with it with no visible co-ordinated approach until after the fact.]
That's what's supposed to happen - the local strategic co-ordination groups deal with the problems, backed up by the SG as necessary. The rationale is that the 'man on the street' knows what's happening on his own patch, with help from central government.
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And despite comments to the contrary elsewhere on this page, the various SCGs do talk to each other!
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We need a 'COBRA' team that meets in a secret basement somewhere in
Edinburgh as soon as single snowflake lands in Scotland. They will
have representatives of the Councils, the Police, the secretive cabal
of the "Winter Maintenance Contractors", the SPT, Scotrail, and the
evil minions that run snow clearing at Airports.
And in the darkened 'operations' room they can then decide which
football away games they'll be expensing this year.
Since its a Scottish Government Minister who's for the fall anyway.
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#89 - "I use to work for a very large American organisation, who at one point in the nineties, were successfully sued by an employee who had a serious accident whilst travelling to work in conditions which with hindsight would not have been advised. The employee successfully demonstrated that pressure to get to work in the face of disciplinary action influenced their decision to travel.
How long before this madness arrives here?"
---
An office in Coatbridge closed last Wednesday (when the snow was bad) because the manager made the call that staff safety was more important than the bottom line. Head office were livid and, since then, the area manager has sat in that office to ensure there was no repeat. So this office remained open yesterday with the result that this same area manager had to visit the local supermarket and buy blankets, pillows and food for all the staff stranded there. These members of staff travelled to work because head office had made such a deal about the office manager making the call to close the office last week.
So I think we're already seeing that madness here.
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Here in Glasgow the schools are closed for pupils tomorrow, also in Renfrewshire and some other LA. Why is the school only closed for pupils? if its dangerous to pupils then it must surely be dangerous to staff as well. I would have thought that in most schools the teachers are the ones who travel the biggest distances?
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BBC News have said they put out a warning on TV at 5am.
A measley two hours before the worst snow fall in Scotland in 40 years.
A tad TOO LATE for a weather forecaster me thinks.
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Not too surprising that the Glasgow forecasts are wrong. The Met office "Glasgow" forecasts are based on their nearest observation station of Bishopton. That's 15 miles away. They've been claiming it's been foggy here all day. Bright sun and blue sky is all we've had.
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I have to say that the weather forecasters are being less than honest - they did forecast a brief band of LIGHT SNOW to hit the central belt before sweeping down South. Even when I was seeing a curtain of heavy snow falling the bbc weather site was STILL forecasting LIGHT SNOW!!! And Judith Ralston on the embedded forecast was still assuring us of a light covering of snow. So far from the Transport Mininster being to blame the real blame must fall on the weather forecasters, who got it wrong. Far from being ignored, the problem was that we listened to the weather forecasters. An apology from the Met Office is however as rare as a polar bear in the Amazon.
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Where is Alex Salmond today?????? Somebody opens a pint of milk and he is there chuckling and snorting away taking all the glory. 1000's stuck on the Motorways and not a peep from him!!! No doubt he is in some foregin country getting tips on running Scotland. Ireland or Iceland Maybe
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#83
Stevenson is being hounded by the media for nothing other than cheap political points.
And by the opposition of course who as usual are being completely unconstructive despite the fact that they will know full well that if this happened whilst any of them were the Govt then exactly the same thing would happen.
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The Met Office forecast 2 to 5cm of snow turning to rain.
What we got was over 25cm of snow and -13C.
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101. Ian
Ian, One could be forgiven for concluding that you don't like the First Minister. I knew he was good, but ordering snow to fall and lorries to jacknife. What a man! Eh?
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"roads were closed and trains cancelled while snow plows and excavators struggled to keep the main routes free, hundreds of cars got stuck."
Scotland, December 2010?......no Germany January 2010
Even the best organised and resourced countries can't plan for everything and can't always get the better of mother nature.
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101, no he was interviewed on stv news at six rightly defending the guys who i seen working to put down salt on footpaths and the roads in Govan on monday morning around 7.30am. well 101 i am sure like Mr Salmond you want to share his support for those guys or is that a no
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Ian6:34pm .
Oh dear. I see you must have missed A. Salmond on stv news then.
Tut tut.
Look before you leap is what me old granny used to say.
Mr Gray was on the BBC ,who would have thunk it.
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#101 now come on Mr Gray, this is no place for your comments, keep them for FMQ's if you don't mind.
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#106 sometimes I think the BBC and ITN are trying to make the news instead of report it.
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I remember the good old days under labour when it never rained, snowed or for that matter blowed wind!
Under labour we had illegal wars, boom & bust and of course sleaze! The sun shone, oh what fun we had!
Exceptions excluded, (e.g. emergencies), anyone idiot enough to travel by road in these conditions should look at themselves and what they were trying to achieve.
Bonkers!
C McK
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101. Ian
Nah he's busy working out who gets the next snowfall before thursday and the grilling by the opposition snowflakes.
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When will any of the media start reporting news , not views and NOT extended weather forecasts.
It is getting truly ridiculous.
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The BBC's Good Morning Scotland were giving inaccurate weather forecasts on the morning of the blizzards.
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104. bmc875
There are others that are slightly higher up my Christmas Card list than him. But no doubt, if I had a new box of Christmas cards to open, Alex would be there smiling away, taking the glory!
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110.
They are effectively creating the news, for them to make the news they would have to report on themselves.
No chance of that eh.
lol.
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1. I do not need any government to tell me what I can observe for myself. Why do I need such a level of governance in my life?
2. I do not accpet Stevensons apology because it's not his fault.
3. The councils, BEAR and whoever other private company are responsible for keeping our roads clear - not the government.
4. It was unprecedented levels of snow.
5. Both the BBC and the Met office got it wrong, let us down and did a diservice. I expect, nae, demand an apology from them
6. Iain Gray shows himself as the career politician he is for captilaising on this, on a act of God and the misery of trapped commuters. A very deperate thing to do.
7. Never mind the people who say we should know better - we don't. We've not seen anything like this for 20 years really or more, it's not a regular occurance and we don't get regular continental weather.
8. We have a generation of drivers who have never had to experience conditions like this and they have had more than 10 years of MMGW propaganda brainwashing them.
9. Labour governments drive tpo get every person into the work place has made it very difficult for parents to get short notice child care.
10. Try helping each other and remember manners if someone helps you. Thanks is enough.
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The weather happens, fact, so let us not blame it.
Some people may have set out before the snow hit them so let us not blame them.
The weather forecasts are varied in their distinction of how much snow was due. They are interperetations of met data and if you take a look at what happens up there you will not be surprised why they vary.
Instead, take a look at how other areas have coped. I drove down to family in Yorkshire on Saturday. No ploughs or gritters seen in Scotland and only one lane of the dual carriageway A1 open. Northumberland, which had more snow than Scotland, had gritters and ploughs on A1 and our turn off road. Big new machiines twice the size of anything previously seen in Scotland. Both lanes of the A1 dual carriageway open. North Yorkshire even had my Mum's side road ploughed and gritted and a gritter came along on Sunday morning.
So why can't Scotland respond to snow?
1. Because it sold its plant, its gritters and ploughs. It has not enough plant for bad weather. Scotland can't spread the grit it says it has. It can't clear the snow beacuse it hasn't got enough plant. Do you see a major construction site with one JCB trying to move a mountian? No, they have the correct type and number of excavotors to move it in the agreed timescale
2. Scotland has no plan for bad weather. There are no qualified public officials charged with what happens if snow falls. They blame the weather man. I don't blame the wether man if I am stuck on a mountain in a blizzard. I am trained and equipped for it.
3. Where maintenance has been handed to private companies measures have not been written in to their contracts requiring them to have the correct plant to deal with snowfalls like this. Why not? Don't blame them if they haven't been asked to do it.
4. North Yorkshire pays farmers and Contractors to clear snow. Scotland doesn't pay enough to attract enough of them.
That is why, apolitically, government must be held accountable. No matter which Governemnt sold the snow ploughs and who is currently in Government. Only Government can insist on making changes as to how to prepare for snow.
Government is responsible for the safety of its citizens. It should insist that Councils and road agencies have the ability to safeguard us and our businesses, our economy. Put someone in charge of that, before our businesses lose any more money or people are hurt.
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gunnergoz
Did she really say "chockablock"?
Standards are slipping,
probably the SNP,s fault.
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Well AS has just roundly skelped John Snow on channel 4 news on the issue, perhaps we can expect the same to happen at Holyrood tomorrow.
Fact is most works were not releasing there staff until mid morning, as the weather forecasts were not accurate they were effectively playing it by ear.
Bus services suspended in both Edinburgh as well as Aviva in Glasgow, -15C at Hathill, so salt cannot defrost the ice on the raods, what else was is there to do?
There was rain prior to the heavy snow fall, washing away large amounts of salt prior to this rain/sleet turning to the heavy snow. This on top of snow in some areas that had not cleared from previous falls, some of which had frozen.
Snow/chain tyres anyone?
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Shame for 101 that Alex Salmond is currently on Channel 4 News discussing this very issue.
On the occasions I've been on the roads over the last week or so I have seen examples of some of the worst driving I have ever seen. Idiots overtaking, trying to get into or out of lanes when it is clearly going to be impossible, folk driving so far up the bahookeys of the cars in front....frankly, a bit of commonsense driving might have helped in all of this.
We could have the best system in the world, all the best equipment and still we'd have to deal with folk who simply don't think they have to take the slightest notice of the conditions.
And if we did have the best system in the world and all the best equipment, there would then be calls for enquiries why all this stuff is sitting in garages and depots during the frequent MILD winters we have. Fact is if you want Scandinavian style winter services then you have to be prepared to pay Scandinavian style taxes. Anyone voting for that? Didn't think so.
In the meantime, there's nothing stopping people fitting their own winter tyre and carrying a snow shovel, making sure they have a flask, some biscuits and a rug with them when they head out in snow.
And while I'm on the subject, isn't it strange that notwithstanding the conditions, we all somehow expect that the grit lorry drivers, snowplough drivers, police etc can magically waft themselves to THEIR workplaces when conditions are bad? Think on......
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#120
As a matter of interest which Govt did sell off all the snow ploughs?
Incidentally CH4 news is reporting a number of drivers trapped in snow tonight in Yorkshire.
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If Scotland was independent they'd be under 12 foot of snow just now so thank you Cameron and Clegg bite for saving our country.
Hooray for the Union! Thank you BBC for putting the SNP in such bad light..those dirty perishers, how dare they cover us in ice and snow...and at Christmas too!
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#120
That be the same Yorkshire that has folk stranded on the moors (Ch4 news report)? Fact is all areas of the UK are having to cope with this record breaking weather, it helps to be prepared when you have the right information to work from. The same people would complain in this "time of austerity" if money was spent on machinery and materials that turned out not necessary.
With great power comes great responsibility eh?
1. Would all the machinery in the UK have helped avoid what happened yesterday given the information that was provided?
2. Even if the information had been accurate, and all the possible action taken, would that have been enough to avoid what happened? Possibly, as traffic would have been warned to avoid those routes, although it's questionable whether it would have made any difference to the road surface themselves.
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126. Wee-Scamp
"Incidentally CH4 news is reporting a number of drivers trapped in snow tonight in Yorkshire."
Is it true that Alex Salmond has been told to appear on Yorkshire TV in order to apologise?
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Newsnicht doing another special on the weather tonight. How splendid. Stewart Stevenson is unlikely to feature however. His boss is doing the piece.
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Are the SNP supporters not missing the point here on two accounts?
1 - Weather forecasts are not accurate. I live in the central belt, I knew on Sunday that there would be a degree of snow on Monday and planned around that.
2 - Being in government brings responsibility. You take the good with the bad, but you govern, you lead the nation. The transport secretary was an embarrassment on Newsnight yesterday, the archetypal evasive politician. An apology would not have fixed anything, but it will have made a lot of voters feel a bit better after a traumatic day.
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#""51. At 3:25pm on 07 Dec 2010, Wee-Scamp wrote:
No wonder people despair of the Scottish Parliament. It seems now that "Opposition parties want probe into Scots travel chaos".
Allow me to help.
It snowed. Lots of people took no notice and got stuck.
End of.
Now can we get on with other more important things.""
---------
More important things like Scotland being asked by the Global CCS Institute to design a blueprint to ensure carbon capture and storage technology (CCS) can be implemented effectively around the world. That sort of important?
The work will be carried out by the Scottish CCS Centre in Edinburgh and supported by the Scottish Government and Scottish European Green Energy Centre.
You read it here first but could read it elsewhere too.
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I think there should be an extra lane on the M8 cos then the snow would have a wider area to fall on and wouldnt end up so deep on the other lanes. And also it would give people wider choice on where to leave their cars if the snow got really really bad.
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137. At 8:28pm on 07 Dec 2010, ggg wrote:
"Are the SNP supporters not missing the point here on two accounts?"
1 - "Weather forecasts are not accurate. I live in the central belt, I knew on Sunday that there would be a degree of snow on Monday and planned around that". Really, crystal ball was it?
Four times as much snow fell than what was forecast by the BBC at 8am monday morning.
Now the opposition with the help of the BBC are childishly trying to blame the Scottish govmt, what I dont understand is how some people are easily fooled by the unionist cabal.
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#120 Eeee ba gum, looks like trouble t'on moors lad.
"About 100 vehicles have become stranded after heavy snowfall on the North York Moors, police have said." from tonight's news, looks like the
The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley
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28. kenstor
"take the praise when they get it right, blame everbody else when they get it wrong."
Neither the SNP nor the Scottish Government is a weather forecasting organisation. Grow up!
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This is the first time I have looked at Brian`s Blog and I must say I have never read so much piff and drivel from contributors. Blame, blame, counter blame "it wisna me". Most of Scotland has been covered in snow for about a week. Is it too much to ask that the people responsible for road management + the Scottish government should have been monitoring the weather situation hour by hour and been aware of "possible" problems.
As it turned out it has been chaos in Central Scotland since Monday morning and the Transport Minister was wheeled out last night to give a typical political response and insulting everyday drivers, saying it was the wrong type of forecast. Then today Mr Salmond (conspicuous by his absence on TV), once again strung out his "pupp*t to make a grovelling apology.
My view is that the gritting and snowplow operators have done a fantastic job under very difficult circumstances and lots of people tonight should be saying a big thank you to them
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#144 #137
Explain what should have been done given the information provided and also the weather conditions.
If only more people had your savvy #137 we wouldn't be talking about poor motorists trapped on Motorways.
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tommyboay
Aye and Im a Labour party member.
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139. TheGingerF
Some lateral thinking there.
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29. At 2:26pm on 07 Dec 2010, R wrote:
Despite what employers groups and gung-ho capitalists would like you to think, this does not cover call centre workers. They should have stayed at home as per advice and not travelled except for genuine emergencies.
I drove up from Cheshire today and would have been MORE than happy not to. The conditions were atrocious and I was seriously worried about getting stuck.
BUT I, like many others, work in a call centre..If I do not turn up tomorrow I do not get paid for any time missed, and on £6 per hour every penny I earn is accounted for. Not only that I would get a disciplinary on my work record and 3 of these in a year and your are gone, you also get a disciplinary if you are off sick. I have had only 1 day off in 6 years, probably spreading all sorts of illness in that time.
Incidently I don't see how they managed to keep the roads moving the little they did. Even the grit was piled up in frozen lumps.
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143. Esscee
"This is the first time I have looked at Brian`s Blog and I must say I have never read so much piff and drivel from contributors."
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149. ai_gin_ray
seems a profanity came into play try looking and listening to #62
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Now they want an inquiry, lol.
The money would be better spent on a couple of gritters and pavement snowploughs.
Some of this stuff needs to be taken away from local authorities, those guys are obviously not good enough, and looking at the last couple of weeks it looks like winter road and footpath work could become quite a critical part of Scotlands yearly routine.
The amount of money which has been lost by businesses must be getting frightening, two weeks out of 52 and counting so far.
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mmm
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The problem now is the snow turning to ice.
Some of the snow covered roads are covered in a lumpy surface up to 12 inches deep which is almost as hard as concrete.
Vehicles are going to take a serious battering in the coming days.
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#137 - "Are the SNP supporters not missing the point here on two accounts?"
Perhaps, but so are you and your ilk. The Scottish government are being blamed for:
1 - not checking the weather conditions before hand on their crystal ball and, instead, relying on weather forecasts that turned out to be "too conservative" re the amount of snow fall we could expect.
2 - not having a means of getting grit on to roads that were impassable. That new fleet of hover gritters should be on-line by now, surely.
3 - not inventing a salt derivative that works at the extremely low temperatures we have been suffering whilst being immune to being washed away in the rain many areas suffered immediately before the snow blizzards.
On a brighter note, I see Scotland's territory has expanded to include Yorkshire. After all, only the SNP government could be so incompetent as to allow drivers to be stranded in heavy snow...
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#143 - "My view is that the gritting and snowplow operators have done a fantastic job under very difficult circumstances and lots of people tonight should be saying a big thank you to them"
But your post reveals that you expected them to do more. So you can't think it was that fantastic a job, can you? What more did you expect them to do. Climb of their plows and gritters when roads were impassable and do it by hand? Just curious, you understand.
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#155 - "The money would be better spent on a couple of gritters and pavement snowploughs."
While I agree with the sentiment, I've seen a couple of LAs trying to clear roads with those tiny ploughs. Needless to say, they got stuck and had to be dug out of the snow by hand.
LAs should buy some decent ploughs or even JCBs - they're not ideal but they can be used for other digging tasks throughout the year.
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153. At 10:01pm on 07 Dec 2010, ai_gin_ray
!!!!PURE DYNAMITE!!!!!
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Didn't see anyone from the local authorities until tuesday, both this week and last week.
Was in Armadale on wednesday, now THOSE guys were organised, all the snow piled up out of the way from both the roads AND the pavements in Armadale, and the residents already out shopping with what looked like twice as much snow on the ground as we got in Edinburgh.
Meanwile residents in Edinburgh slipped slithered and fell over en-mass. Even edinburgh city centre was a disaster area until local businesses finally realised no-one would come out and shop unless they did the clearup themselves, which they started to do by Friday and saturday.
The buses must have saved countless numbers of people, especially on that first Monday snowfall, well done the bus guys.
Apart from a few shining lights it's been a pretty shameful experience to say the least.
Scotland the inept.
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I came back from holiday into Glasgow on the 26th and drove late at night up to Aberdeenshire and saw only one council gritter the whole journey but it was not the SNP who privatised the highway maintenance.
The snow has hardly shifted since the last week in November but most people are managing to get around, but of course the councils can only do so much and will prioritise the main routes. This though leads to more people avoiding side roads and using the main roads which of course leads to more congestion, but the biggest problem is some people really have no idea about driving in snow. Winter tyres make one heck of a difference though and I would hate to drive in snow without them.
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Please don't tell me there is going to be YET ANOTHER wasted FMQ this Thursday. Iain Gray, Annabel, Tavish all for the sake of it finding something to beat the government with. Salmond may be Sparticus but he dont control the weather. At 8.ooam on Monday the BBC were still reporting that 90% of Schools would be open. No real reporting about the turn for the worse in the weather. I looked out the window and thought better stay put.
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I hope Newsnight will ensure the minister is asked about the way that Transport Scotland contracts maintaining the motorways to private sector contractors - so there is poor communication between Council's nd Motorway maintenance. What is the extra cost they will be charging for this most recent mess?
Its time for over-cocky Stevenson to go
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#165 - "At 8.ooam on Monday the BBC were still reporting that 90% of Schools would be open."
Ay least after last week's wee spat between Pat Watters and Mike Russell, the MSM will struggle to put the blame for kids being stranded overnight in schools onto the SNP.
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37. martin
"What was clearly missing yesterday was a strategic and co-ordinated response and for that the executive has got to be held to account."
Your ignorance of the structure of Scotland's governance is quite remarkable. The Scottish Government does not instruct local authorities. Local authorities are accountable to local electorates.
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161. kadok
"!!!!PURE DYNAMITE!!!!!"
No doubt with a slow fuse.
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Salt Shortage ?
There are alternatives to salt like Calcium Magnesium Acetate and Potassium Acetate, more expensive but the cost difference I'm sure would be more than offset by the savings in stranded vehicle recovery, disruption and corrosion. CMA is effective down to -27c.
Keeping the main/major roads clear is of course very necessary however if JUST ONCE the side roads had been ploughed I wouldn't be listening to my sump guard being battered to death trying to get to the main road. Talk about sphincter tightening!!
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38. Ecksfreelunch
"The issue seems to be a bit more basic with a minister who seems to have very little control over this part of his ministerial portfolio. "
The weather is not part of any "ministerial portfolio". The efforts of anti-Scottish Government propagandists grow ever more laughable. "SALMOND ACCUSED...!"...of making it snow!!
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50. ady
"Most local and national government doods take monday and/or friday off nowadays."
Unsupported assertion. Which is the polite term for utter drivel.
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Even in the midst of this stormy season we need analysis and planning to avoid (if possible) future similar chaotic scenes as Monday's.
A high level committee should muster very quickly when problem conditions are sensed. Is this The Resilience Committee? Can they meet within half an hour?
The radio (& TV ?) airways should be commandeered to issue news, plans, orders, what-have-you. Radio Scotland was good, but were too journalistic as there seemed to be no one to give out "what to do" instructions at this or that intersection.
SMS subscription services should be instantly organised to distribute information.
People in general, individuals not Council employees or "someone else", must simply accept that difficult conditions, flood, fire, snow, etc. call for personal planning and effort by themselves to refrain from travel or to get equipped for the journey's potential dangers.
Standard commands must be developed - here is one such: Stop, move vehicles to the side of the road, stay away from a freely/slowly moving lane, and check the condition of people 5 vehicles in front and 5 to the rear.
Police, or transport authority, should closely monitor worsening conditions and issue closure commands early. Shut whole motorways if that allows clearance crews to operate. Train drivers don't personally decide to move off, their network controllers decide whether conditions are safe.
Concentrate clearing effort on exit routes leading away from motorways - should there be clearable roads available.
Recovery vehicles should be commandeered for use at pinch points, rather than being unavailable due to mending someone's puncture or flat battery.
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51. Wee-Scamp
"No wonder people despair of the Scottish Parliament."
Only ideological unionists and the equally ignorant "despair" of the Scottish Parliament. The rest of us despair of the ideological unionists who feign to be the "opposition" in the Scottish Parliament.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/222002
It would appear that they still don't undertand that Scots law isn't, wasn't and never has been "devolved", it has always been ours alone.
They also portray comments by the SNP concerning UK-Lybia oil deals as attempts to blame Westminster for forcing them to make a decision on the release of Megrahi. This alon highlights that the US has little to no understanding of how both Scots law and devolution works.
Comments on oil deals were made to focus attnetion for that speculation firmly were it should have been, on Westminster. At no time did the SNP regret having to make a decision one way or the other, under the process of Scots law they were duty bound to.
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56. martin
"...and left the emergency services and local authority's to deal with it..."
It's their job to deal with it, you fool! There was no "state of emergency" that would require central government taking control. There was just a bit of snow. Grow up!
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---------------------------
"Most local and national government doods take monday and/or friday off nowadays."
Unsupported assertion. Which is the polite term for utter drivel.
---------------------------
Wish it was drivel, but some of us have neighbours who work for these organisations and they have a nice wee life between the "max" number of days a year they can take off for "illness" and the monday/friday flexitime skive.
Local Government is a one star service at five star prices.
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57. idlerider
"The reason for this chaos is self-evident: remedial action is being operated on the basis of a cost/benefit analyses..."
There is no "chaos". There is some generalised inconvenience. Grown-ups deal with inconvenience in a mature fashion. Seek to emulate the example of your intellectual superiors.
The cost-benefit analysis is hardly required. You would have to be a complete idiot to spend hundreds of millions of pounds preparing for a situation that only arises very occasionally, for relatively brief periods, and at the cost of only fairly minor temporary disruption. To hear the likes of you talk you'd think thousands of people were dying every day. Bllx!
I hope Santa brings you the most useful gift you could wish for - A SENSE OF PROPORTION!
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/07/lockerbie-the-view-from-scotland
Apparently the decision will haunt AS and KM into retirement. Even with the smoke they can't make any fire, maybe because it's drifted from somewhere else?
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61. Ron McArthur
"He was asked 6 times last night to say sorry, but avoided actually saying the words."
So he didn't sit up and beg like the Pavlovian dog the media want all our politicians to be. Any sane person would applaud him for that.
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173. Phil
Which budgets will you cut to support that?
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"He was asked 6 times last night to say sorry, but avoided actually saying the words."
It made him look like a twit, an apology for any errors made was the least he could have done after a day of disaster for thousands of people.
But it's hard to see what's going on on the ground when you view it from an ivory tower in the clouds.
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I see that the UK government has only half the salt/grit requirements that was promised after last winter. Their Transport Minister said they will reach the required level by Late January. Bet they are glad it was Central Scotland and not the South East.
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The transport minister was silly to go on tv and say what he said. BUT What caused the chaos was:
Bear Scotland
Amy
transerve Scotland
private tendering
(introduced by labour on roads in Scotland)
impatient car and lorry drivers
bad driving
wide tyres on cars
snow
ice
bad driving
ABS
gritting decisions are taken by the computers and staff of the roads network maintenance contractors. not ministers sitting in parliament we pay these guys to keep the roads open government only stipulates and pays the contracts.
Drivers drive too close to the vehicle in front leaving no time to react to what is going on in front of them. ABS does not stop you quicker, it only allows you to steer while stopping.
wide low profile tyres reduce your vehicles traction.
People do not realise that between -7 and -10 salt is useless and the roads will still be icy
the answer
increase the number of night time ploughs and gritters ,close all motorways between 4 and 6 AM and allow the ploughs to clear the road before re opening.
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#178 - "Wish it was drivel, but some of us have neighbours who work for these organisations"
Yes, I'm sure you do. Just as I'm sure you watch their comings and goings inbetween your signing on times (or is a med3 your flexible friend?)
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#179 Electric Hermit,
So, just how bad do things have to get before we progress from "some generalised inconvenience" into chaos???
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Apparently people are now expected to apologise for now being Psychic.
Watching how Brewer is talking to Alex Hill, he obviously sees himself as a prosecution lawyer. If a defence was allowed their counsel would be objecting to leading questions.
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I see the guy from the Institute of Advanced motorists is blaming the current Government for the contracts of his precedessors
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160. ForteanJo
"LAs should buy some decent ploughs or even JCBs - they're not ideal but they can be used for other digging tasks throughout the year.
"
If wishful thinking was effective then you'd have all the world's problems solved in an afternoon. Neither JCBs nor ploughs nor any other heavy machines are magic. They have first of all to get access to the affected areas, then they have to lift the snow... but they can't make it just disappear! It has to be loaded onto trucks and taken away and dumped somewhere.
Grow up, people! There are no easy solutions! Sometimes you just have to deal with what nature throws at you.
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170. biped
"CMA is effective down to -27c."
And how often do we experience such temperatures? Should the government also take precautions against the possibility of a 50 degree heatwave?
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178. ady
"Wish it was drivel, but some of us have neighbours who work for these organisations..."
Yeah! But my sister used to go out with a guy whose dad worked beside a woman whose brother drank in the same pub as somebody who used to be married to a woman whose two cousins both worked for "these organisations". So there!
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183. ady
"But it's hard to see what's going on on the ground when you view it from an ivory tower in the clouds."
As opposed to a subterranean ivory tower?
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#189
I see the guy from the Institute of Advanced motorists is blaming the current Government for the contracts of his precedessors .
Yes - that was really bizarre.
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187. bingowings87
"So, just how bad do things have to get before we progress from "some generalised inconvenience" into chaos???
"
A helluva lot worse than they've been over the past week. Get a bloody grip! It's a bit of snow and ice. That's all! People are not dying by the thousands. The supermarket shelves are still full! The pubs are still open! If you can't get out today, stay in! Go out tomorrow! What's the big deal? You can always buy your bloody lottery ticket online! [EXPLETIVE DELETED!]
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Why has there always got to be someone to blame? Yes things could have been done better, but we hear the same forecast as government and yet we still head out in our cars despite the information. It is absurd that we look for people to sack on the basis of one weather event. My point is that when police say do not travel "unless absolutely necessary" clearly most people believe that includes getting to work. Employers have to be more on the ball to advise people to stay at home or where possible work from home. Nobody benefits from having hundreds of people stuck on a road for 12 hours. Better communication is needed at all levels. Purely blaming government is a lazy, easy, headline-driven option. A bit more common sense from all please.
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If it is any consolation to everyone enduring these conditions at home, when a major earthquake devastated Kobe in Japan a few years back, both the local authorities as well as central government were, literally, so devastatingly incompetent and insensitive to the cost of thousands of lives that an intriguing combination of the mafia - yakuza - and thousands of civic-minded volunteers had to intervene (central government having refused outside, non-Japanese, professional help).
Thus, human shortcomings seem to be a universal rule of thumb as does name-calling and passing the buck (especially by "mandarins" within the public and civil services, quangos like the Met and BBC, as well as hack, "professional" politicians.
Perhaps a republic with fully accountable servants of the Scots populace might serve to get, even minor issues in the universal scale of this kind of natural and localized human "disaster" sensibly coped with in the future? Or will we continue to fret and labor insensibly in the kailyard co-constructed by our own illusions? A typhoon has just cleared here and we coped. Safe journey to all. Regards, Daibhidh
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This blog attempts to put the current heavy snow falls in Scotland in a wider human context of natural disasters. This is what it attempts to mean. Are you au fait with the principle of "universality", or is this a conceptual, kailyard struggle for your Anglo-centric view of the world and universe?
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Millions die all over the world due to natural or man-made disasters and I log-on to a, certainly, civil discourse; but, one that seems to be somewhat disproportionate to the scale of the event.
However, the courteous nature of the discussion and it's attendant combativeness is most welcome.
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Apologies if my meaning was unclear and offensive to anyone. I am sorry folk are having to cope with such severely inclement conditions. Merely trying to put it in a more global perspective and urge everyone to act on their world and not be passive servants to it.
My own preference is for a republic of equals in Scotland that co-exists with our neighbors and the natural environment we inhabit. I trust this explains things, Moderator. Thank you.
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Explain again. We reside in a wider body politic beyond the artificially imposed parameters of the UK - that historic relic.
Perhaps, the heavy snow and artic conditions may serve to remind us of our universal connectedness and prompt us to fully, collaboratively and independently engage with the world in all humility.
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#195 Electric Hermit
Well, I guess it beats answering the question .....
So ..... could you specify what you mean by "a helluva lot worse"?
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The Met Office were late in their prediction and underestimated the severity of the event. Sounds like Afghanistan or Iraq?
The Met Office is, after all, part of the MoD. Honestly, it is:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/about-us/who
They work for the British Army and the RAF and make money selling their services to the BBC/Councils/Government etc. Perhaps Dr Liam Fox, as the minister in charge, should resign or at least be grilled on the matter.
In Scotland the Met Office have weather stations at RAF Kinloss, RAF Leuchars, RAF Lossiemouth and Eskdalemuir Observatory, (The latter probably explains why the tiny settlement of Eskdalemuir often appears of Scottish weather maps!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Met_Office
So here is a question for the future: Will the CON/Dem defence cuts north of the Border improve Scottish weather forecasts? Will we have a repeat of the debacle on the M8 motorway?
Well you can strike out 50% of the Met Office weather station coverage - RAF Kinloss and probably one other RAF weather station - in the near future. At least Eskdalemuir will keep appearing as it is jointly run with the British Geological Survey. (Eskdalemuir used monitor nuclear tests, but that area of work was hived off and privatised under Labour in 2002.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskdalemuir_Observatory
http://www.guralp.com/articles/20040400-casestudy-eskdalemuir/support
Perhaps in the oft-repeated words of the former defence secretary, Dr John Reid, they will soon be 'Not fit for purpose'?
Scotland's weather forecasts, like Defence, is a reserved matter handled by Westminster.
Only a conspiracy theorist would think this was a set up...
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On Sunday 28 and Monday 29 November large numbers of drivers were stuck for many hours to the south, north, and east of Perth. Over 600 people sought emergency shelter in a council facility in Perth, and many hundreds more abandoned their cars to seek overnight refuge anywhere they could. A 31-mile journey took me 28 hours. Throughout that Sunday there was not a single traffic announcement on the radio. The Trafficscotland website - a government agency - was either unreachable or contained its usual half-baked info.
These 'inconveniences' rated a bit of attention on the news. But when something similar happens in the central belt, where the politicans and the journalists live, everyone starts shouting their heads off and saying nothing like it has ever happened before. Well, folks, it happened just over a week ago, and you paid scant attention and learned no lessons. And tonight we hear on BBC TV someone saying 'the nation' is paralysed when what they mean is the road through the central belt is paralysed.
Truly our journalists and politicans inhabit their own wee village and blithely ignore the rest of Scotland.
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#190 - "If wishful thinking was effective then you'd have all the world's problems solved in an afternoon. Neither JCBs nor ploughs nor any other heavy machines are magic. They have first of all to get access to the affected areas, then they have to lift the snow... but they can't make it just disappear! It has to be loaded onto trucks and taken away and dumped somewhere."
Harsh and uncalled for. We're all aware of the problems we're facing, you're not some kind of snow plough guru that we all need to turn to for advice. I was, after all, pointing out that some LAs are relying on inadequate equipment, a false economony, and that if they can't justify the expense of having real snow ploughs sitting in a shed for 9 months of the year, there are alternatives.
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"The UK feared harsh action by Libya against British interests if the Lockerbie bomber died in jail, cables published by Wikileaks claim.
The US cables say London's fully supported the release of Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi by the Scottish authorities."
Fancy that???!!!
So that means that the uk government were supportive of the Scottish Government's decision (albeit for different reasons)! But were too scared to say so?
So that means Mr Gray would have been supportive along with Gordon Brown and his cabinet.
Funny how Mr Cameron, when he was trashing Scotland to the world on the Whitehouse steps, failed to mention that the uk government supported this position.
Pardon me for suggesting, but are successive uk governments complete hypocrites.
I think this story would be worthy of Scotland’s journalistic champion of truth, the one and only – Glenn Campbell, prize winning journalist on the subject.
It’s a funny old world.
Would be interesting to get some Wikileaks of the uk government view of Scotland and Scots?
C McK
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#207 - "Funny how Mr Cameron, when he was trashing Scotland to the world on the Whitehouse steps, failed to mention that the uk government supported this position."
This simply demonstrates, if any further demonstration was necessary, how willing the UK government was (and still is) to hang Scotland out to dry, and how opportunistic the unionist opposition parties at Holyrood really are.
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151. sid_ts63
"time for some investigative journalism who was the guy who demanded heads must roll is he a member of a political party ,is he a BBC employee or a freelance journalist?"
I recall the time when the volcanic ash was causing air traffic disruption and a bit of a mess in the Shetlands. The BBC News ran a piece where they talked to 'A Shetlands Resident'. On hearing his voice, I looked up just in time to see the caption 'Mr Tom Morton, Shetland Resident'. Mr Morton waxed lyrical about the effects of the volcanic ash. Then I recognised the voice - Yes! None other than Tom Morton, Chat show, music show host every week day afternoon, BBC Scotland!
Good responsible journalism in action. Nothing said or shown was untrue - however!
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John Swinney on Newsnicht last night gave the obligatory show of support for the suddenly low profile transport minister. Of course as john knows, it's nothing to do with him whether he supports him or not. The first minister is the man. So who will Alec replace the hapless Mr Stewart with? I suspect he tenders his resignation later on today and hopefully the FM brings in some new blood from the back benches.
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I'm hoping some of the vociferous aftertimers will bring out evidence of the existence of their prescience before 8.30am Monday - obviously BBC Scotland ('our' national broadcaster) are blown out of the water with their pathetic '5cm of snow'.
Charlie Gordon (Holyrood Lab Shadow Transport spokesman) this morning on R4 said the SG were at fault for using the 'wrong forecast' to base their actions on - unfortunately he wasn't asked to define what the right one was. Presumably there will be a substantial record of him advising the SG on this matter, particularly as the bad weather had been with us for 10 days at that point. Likewise the hindsighted 3 stooges of the Union; doubtless there will be bountiful records of phone calls, e-mails and statements made on the matter before this extreme weather event hit us. Strangely despite being blessed with this hindsight, they still seem unable to tell us what actually should have been done.
On the other hand there may just be a big, fat vacuum filled by manufactured outrage, bluster and finger pointing. Situation depressingly normal then.
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PS
'On the other hand there may just be a big, fat vacuum filled by manufactured outrage, bluster and finger pointing.'
Nominations for this title on a postcard please (this may be jointly awarded).
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By way of a P.S do the infamous leaks exonerate Scotlands Justice Minister?
Will anyone have to retract the drivel they broadcast?
And those American Senators ,will they come to give a wee apology?
Richard Baker?
Anyone?
Will the scoop have to be returned?
Just asking.
Apparently ,millions of folk had access to these " secrets" .
Wonder why no journalist came accross them here, or broadcaster - that really would have been a " scoop"
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I know the weather reports are much more accurate these days than back in say the '70s but remember, they are just forecasts. Obviously they can be wrong, the UK weather is very hard to predict and generally they do a good job.
Had they predicted huge snowfalls and everyone was told to stay at home, motorways were to be closed, etc. and nothing appeared, the same political screaming and shouting would have happened.
I don't for one minute think it was a good idea to privatise the responsibility for road clearing, but that's just my view - I personally didn't vote for the people that did that.
Also, already in this country, a company can be charged with corporate manslaughter if they insist on a person driving too much in a day in jobs such as sales reps, so maybe there needs to be a reminder of their responsibility when they insist people get to work against police advice.
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203. bingowings87
"So ..... could you specify what you mean by "a helluva lot worse"?"
Could you explain what you mean by "specify".
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207. Calum McKay
"Pardon me for suggesting, but are successive uk governments complete hypocrites.
"
Duh-uh!
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216. At 10:32am on 08 Dec 2010, craggiehopper wrote:
"I don't for one minute think it was a good idea to privatise the responsibility for road clearing, but that's just my view."
This applies to many of the essential services that were formerly owned/operated by those directly employed by the public bodies.
About 15-20 years ago, when I was hill walking, I used to travel all over the north of Scotland and there were a couple of really severe winters but the roads were always passable and I seem to remember the A9 being gritted 24 hours a day.
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220. handclapping
"I mean we aren't to get the World Cup "
Woops! Freudian 'we' methinks!
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If public services adopt a reactive strategy, they will be damned for not taking suitable precautions, not investing to keep the country open for business.
If public services are proactive, they run the risk of being accused of wasting taxpayer funds.
After the swine flu episode - when the UK 'panic-bought' and stockpiled vaccine, in anticipation of a more virulent and deadly outbreathat actually came to pass - it is hardly surprising that "just in case" has given way to "just in time".
As to this week's events, why does someone have to be held to be blameworthy?
How many, trapped in their cars, were thinking - "Where there's blame, there's a claim" - and how many lowest-of-the-low lawyers will now be trying to cobble together a mechanism for claiming compensation, desperatey seeking a defendant (with deep enough pockets for them to skim off their fees)?
'Twas ever the case that we suffer during the first few days of especially wintry weather, just as we suffer whenever the summer temperature soars; we moan about about it for a day or two, then get on with our lives as best we can.
I cannot understand the motivation for Stewart Stevenson's apology: the public were given the best guess scenario (which is all any forecast can be, by definition), but when heavy snow starts falling, it is incumbent upon the public to use commonsense.
Many of those who ended up 'trapped' had doubtless set out when it was abundantly clear that the forecast had underestimated how bad things were going to be; if they had stayed at home, there would have been fewer vehicles to block the roads and those unfortunates who had set out even earlier (and hence had less chance of recognising the weather's intensity) might have had a better chance of getting home.
If the forecast is for sunny and warm, and I look out to see a torrential downpour, I will be culpable if I go out in T-shirt and shorts (not a pretty sight) and ultimately contract pneumonia as a result.
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These government muppets take over and run everything making up a zillion do-and-don't-do rules until everyone becomes a drone.
Then as soon as things get a bit tuff the government folds like a wet hankie and it's back to personal responsibility time...because that's the only resource which actually works in the good times AND the bad times.
Unfortunately, in modern Britain the government muppets have stripped most citizens of a sense of community responsibility because they assured us that they could do everything, then made it a criminal offence to stop youngsters vandalising streets and interfered in every aspect of basic public life until the only place you feel you are safe is in your own home.
Funny how our council securitate who strutted around in the sunshine lording it over the serfs and telling them what they could and couldn't do...have completely disappeared as soon as a bit of real graft like shovelling snow and ice is needed.
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The public should clear icy side roads and pavements not treated by councils, the transport secretary has suggested.
The Army may clear Edinburgh's streets as Scotland remains gripped by sub-zero conditions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11946901
------------------------
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As my previous efforts were binned (probably due to the mention of a certain cartoon character in the same sentence as the Labour leader in Scotland, I'll try again without the obvious comparisons.
Looks like embarrassing leaks now coming out that puts Gray et al in untenable positions. Are we to see their immediate resignations or will they deny their very utterances, as per usual.
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"The public should clear they're streets and pavements" - fine, have done repeatedly.
"We have enough salt and grit" - so where is it?? I can't safely clear any more than I have done as the grit buckets in our area are all empty. At least if someone falls on the snowy/ice pavement they'll get a slightly softer landing than if we all clear it to tarmac and let the black ice cometh!
Come on, get the salt and grit to us and maybe we will clear a bit more - nothing wrong with admitting that there is a bit more snow than usual and you don't have the resources to clear it all. Plenty people were at home to watch the kids or were "working from home" last week that could've cleared loads.
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Doh! Their, not they're!!
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I used to think a lot of them were sociopaths trying to destroy the basic fabric of society but have met enough by now to realise that most appear to be highly intelligent well-meaning idiots.
The sort of folk who could get a degree in quantum mechanics or write a thesis on legal anomalies...but they couldn't get an o-level in common sense and have no concept or natural understanding of day to day living.
...rant over...
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#223 bmc875
Nothing to do with any erstwhile prominent LibDem, I'm English.
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1984 has arrived.
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Aye Brian - Eye of the storm
Michael Fish's infamous weather forecast 23 years ago.
Michael Fish’s 15 October 1987 ‘lunchtime’ weather forcast:
"Earlier on today apparently," he began, "a woman rang the BBC and said she had heard that there was a hurricane on the way.
"Well if you are watching, don't worry there isn't," he said sagely, reassuring millions of viewers.
Yet just a few hours later, the worst storm since 1703 unleashed its fury.
In the early hours of 16 October 1987, winds reaching 122mph ripped across the south-eastern corner of England, taking the sleeping nation by surprise.
As dawn broke, 18 people had lost their lives and 15 million trees had been uprooted.
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Today I was ten minutes late for shcool due to a Lorry blocking one side of the road, this is an absolute disgrace. Heads should roll for this.
No infact someone should go to jail until they rot, no check that they should go to jail until the jail rots and then put in another jail until that rots.
Don't you just love the anti SNP government sentiment from the usual suspects.
And what's with the selective length of time these blogs are open.
I'm not suggesting anything suspicious obviously.
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Think we've got problems now?
Just wait until the next financial year when the cuts begin to take real effect. Next winter will be even worse in terms of Govt,local authority and emergency services responses to the weather on a significantly reduced budget.
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Brian
A nice piece on a Scottish Government minister at the eye of another storm. I suggest that you keep the outline of this piece as the subject matter, i.e. Scottish Government minister at the eye of a storm, seems to come up with depressing regularity. However we don't seem to get many resignations out of all this media and party political outrage. Is this because the storms are fabrications and the facts do not lend themselves to the kangaroo court "justice" that is being hyped in an attempt to sell dead trees or electronic wallpaper?
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#236. At 12:24pm on 08 Dec 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
"The real problem for them is, the one man band party tag is day by day becoming evidently a reality."
Still, when all three main opposition parties are the equivalent of 4m 33s of silence, one man's better than nowt
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237. At 12:27pm on 08 Dec 2010, SneakyinMr wrote:
Think we've got problems now?
Just wait until the next financial year when the cuts begin to take real effect. Next winter will be even worse in terms of Govt,local authority and emergency services responses to the weather on a significantly reduced budget.
Well, as the one man band party will no longer be in power, we will see what unbiased comments they make then.
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Forget the fuss and bluster over the flurries; let's have some fun with names !!! ...
Several academic studies have attempted to explore the relationship between first names and the characteristics of the bearers(holders/owners/occupiers/whatever; that's for another time) of those names ... Perhaps in the same way that some dog owners grow to resemble their mutts, so some name owners grow to be like their names imply; or is it the other way round ??? ...
We all know folk who look or sound or act just like a 'Jimmy', 'Tarquin', 'Olivia' or 'Traceee'; don't we ??? ...
Anyway, to get things started how about some of the current SG ??? ... Here's my starter for 10 (with some 'good' and some 'bad' characteristics where appropriate); please feel free to add/change/delete as you see fit ... It was the topical one (at the bottom) that prompted this irrelevant outburst; The Muppet Show has provided many apt monikers, rarely one so startingly visually accurate ...
Alex: Sharp, crafty, shrewd; oleaginous, slick, street - wise ...
Nicola: Nippy, pointed, shrewish ...
Kenny: Pal; Plumber, wide - boy, opportunist ...
John: Solid, straight, solemn; plodding, dull ...
Stewart: Turgid, soporific, Beaker ...
Of course, there's plenty fun to be had with those who occupy the opposition benches ('Tavish', 'Bella' anyone ???) ...
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Wnat I cannot understand is why Stewart Stevenson felt the need to apologise.
I was under the impression that the responsibility for the treatment of the roads lay with the local councils.
I'm am not sure of the breakdown of what parties run councils in the Central belt, but I would suggest they would have more to answer for than Mr Stevenson.
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