Make cuts - but not just yet
While at university in Fife, I dallied briefly with the study of theology: an option made available by the estimable Faculty of Divinity to arts students, like me.
Odd memories recur from time to time - and so, when I contemplated the findings of our BBC Scotland poll on attitudes to public spending, my thoughts turned to St Augustine of Hippo and his famous modulated appeal.
Lord, he prayed, make me chaste - but not just yet. (For the scholar, the full Latin version is: Da mihi castitatem et continentiam, sed noli modo.)
Folk, it seems from our poll, back the concept of spending cuts. Sed noli modo.
The poll suggests that a remarkable 81% feel cuts should proceed more slowly.
Such a finding, if replicated in other polls, helps explain the occasional bursts of uncertainty from within the UK coalition camp re the timing, scope and presentation of the coming cuts package.
It also helps explain why the Chancellor has been so adamant that only sustaining the pace of spending cuts will placate global markets.
He is retaliating in advance, aware that the rival case may be appealing when folk are understandably fretting.
Aren't those intriguing findings too re the potential political impact? We opted, quite deliberately, to exclude other options such as blaming the bankers.
Banks may do many things but they do not, commonly, stand for election.
Asked who was most responsible for pending cuts, Scots tended to choose the former UK Labour government over the present UK coalition, with a small proportion pinning the blame on the SNP Scottish Government.
Polls, of course, are a snapshot, not a predictor - and those proportions may change when the cuts are announced and implemented.
But they provide, at the very least, an interesting backdrop to the sundry attempts by political parties to blame various combinations of their rivals.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~39~RS~)
I'm 
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I agree cuts have to be made,but some of these cuts are tory cuts, ideological party cuts for the sake of it, covering them up and blaming labour. These cuts are taking us back to the worst tory dark days, and that for the working man on the stret killed of most of the indusrty and services in scotland,the snp are to quick to blame london,we know its them that are doing the cutting, god help us all.
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2. JAGUARRAITHROVER
So basically, you are saying it is the fault of the SNP, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats.
Do you vote Labour by any chance?
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2. Raith Rover.
Labour Secretary to the Treasury Liam Byrne wrote:
"I'm afraid to tell you there's no money left."
Are you suggesting Mr Byrne miscalculated again ?
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Brian,
It is the nature of the beast to blame someone, in this case those who created the problem have been found to be guilty by a majority verdict.
As to what their failings were, well that list is quite long as you well know, I do feel that failure to recognise one’s failings and one’s faults is not only open to the politicians’ of the day but of yesterday as well.
The fact that the financial crisis was created within the banking sector worldwide does not absolve any one; in fact those who were willing to sit on their collective hands prior to the bubble bursting were equally to blame.
While we are looking who to blame, there is a case to answer at your own door, but that will make you and others in that shiny new block on the Clyde, with a motto that reads “Nation shall speak peace unto Nation” first recognise the “Nation”
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The fact that 13% of those surveyed blamed the SNP for the looming cuts says it all about opinion polls. The SNP are the only party in Scotland willing and able to defend the country against the Westminster cuts. Putting that message over to the electorate is the key issue ahead of next May. Thus far, the SNP are lagging in the blame game and will need to pull a few tricks out of the hat in Perth to regain the election momentum.
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And silence the MSM!
With particular reference to those who have a an illogical hatred of Alex Salmond and feed their own fire by writing drivel in such papers as the Telegraph and the Times - a husband and wife team .
Don't bother reading the articles just gaz with amazement at their headlines!
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I cannot wait for Scotland to get over its dependence on the state. One in four employed by the public sector, plus all those employed by the 'private' sector contracted in by the public sector, add the rest that have been sidelined onto sickness benefits to keep the unemployment stats hitting the roof, and, in reality, we have one sorry little economy. Dependent...and ultimately boring, with horrible social issues and a massive drug habit. We need a cure. Maybe a spoonful of sugar would help the medicine go down, but methinks for the next generation's sake cold turkey is the best option.
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The only thing keeping a lid on the council tax going through the roof is the SNP.
If they lose at the next election there's going to be some seriously hefty council tax rises in Scotland.
The Conservatives...um...who dat?
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Brian wrtote: "Scots tend to blame the former UK labour government for forthcoming spending cuts."
If you tell a big enough whooper, often enough, with passion, using your pals in the media and pointing out that the cuts are other parties fault not yours............
.............alas for labour - you have been rumbled.
Who with any credibility would suggest it was any party other than labour who is responsible for the cuts?
labour's strategy of not wishing to form a progressive co-allition post election was that labour would let the tories implement the cuts and then hopefully get in the next time on back of tory unpopularity.
This of course means labour deserted the poor and vulnerable to their fate under the tories. So much for labour pretence for standing up for the poor and vulnerable in Scotland!
C McK
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I'm truly amazed that anyone could possibly doubt the impending cuts are entirely Labour's fault. However, I'm not at all surprised that people would prefer the cuts should proceed more slowly.
The question though is whether not cutting will lead to higher interest rates having to be paid and that could increase our indebtedness making growth even more difficult to achieve.
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Morning Brian:
The other day you said, regarding the "nurses working for nothing" outburst by Iain Gray , Iain Gray had provided "some evidence" to back his claims. Remember?
Is this the same as his "I have in my hand a piece of paper" sketch for which you claimed to have seen the 'evidence' but never produced?
Another sad day for the BBC in Scotland.
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Jings, talk about a loaded question.
"From the following, who do you think is most responsible for the spending cuts that are soon to be announced."
Now did you mean who will be responsible for making these cuts? That is those currently in power who have to make the cuts.
Or did you mean who is responsible for leaving us in this unholy mess?
Your interpretation suggests that 47% of men and 58% of women do not blame Labour for the mess we're in...
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Rather interesting results from this poll, it would tend to strongly support the idea that cuts are required but that they should be done more slowly than is planned, and that Scots seem to have a fairly clear view that the previous UK government takes most of the responsibility for the needs for cuts.
I find it reassuring that despite much of the medias lack of real information on the topic, where most of the reporting is partisan, that so many People have got a clear view of the reality of the situation.
As Abraham Lincoln said
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
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#14
Yes I agree. It's the wrong question. The BBC should have asked who they thought was responsible for causing the need for cuts.
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Mr Taylor,
You wrote:
"The poll suggests that a remarkable 81% feel cuts should proceed more slowly."
This is what Alex Salmond has been saying all along. Nice to know 81% of people support his position on the speed of the cuts.
Has anyone told Mr Gray yet?
By the way, what was the 'some evidence' for Mr Gray's statements on the nurses? Care to give us some clue.
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Forgive me if I'm wrong.
42% of the people polled thought Labour was to blame. However, 39% blamed the current government and 13% thought the SNP was to blame.
In my book 39 + 13 = 52
So 52% of the people polled did not blame Labour.
It seems it is impossible forthe media would tell the truth given that the polls now show Labour only 2% behind the Conservatives since the election.
Some people only read headlines and draw their own conclusions without reading the whole story.
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"A further 13% pinned the blame on the SNP Scottish government."
An astonishing figure that can only be explained by the anti-Scottish Government propaganda peddled by the media in Scotland.
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Brian
I'm presuming that you must have signed some form of Official Secrets documentation?
If it was not for that, I have every confidence that you would make public all these pieces if evidence that Iain Gray says that he's given you. Or is it you that says Iain Grey has given them to you?
No matter - but it is just sooooo baaaaaaaaaad of people in Scotland to blame New Labour for the mess that the UK economy is in.
I mean, you'd think that Tony Blair or Gordon Brown had been Prime Minister? You would even think that Gordon Brown or Alasdair Darling had been Chancellor?
Is it not about time that Jim Murphy or some such person re-writes history?
I think that if you study Ian Grey's "History", you'll find that Alec Salmond was UK Prime Minister and John Swinney was UK Chancellor.
I mean we are all benefit cheats and scroungers up here aren't we?
Slainte Mhor
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#19 Electric Hermit
I couldn't agree more!!
You know what they say there are lies, damded lies and then statistics. I don't think the statisticians can count.
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#18
Assumming what you say is correct one can only assume that most Scots can't read and never listen/watch the news.
Nobody could possibly deny that Labour are responsible for creating the conditions in which cuts have become inevitable.
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Brian
Lies do not make an interesting backdrop!!
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The cuts are the results of the recession. Is this our first recession? Who was to blame last time? Who can we blame for the next one?
The UK has run a deficit every year except twice since WW2.
Changing the governing party from blue to red to blue and yellow has no affect. It’s a side show for the X-factor zombified masses this nation has become - and those blaming the SNP truly haven't a clue!
Shall we blame Tory/Labour for:-
Japan- Up to its neck in debt and printing money!
USA- Up to its neck in debt and printing money!
Greece -Up to its neck in debt and rioting in the streets!
Ireland-Up to its neck in debt and now in a debt spiral!
Spain, Portugal etc etc...
You are doing a disservice to the people of this country by asking them to blame one bunch of politicians over another - who are not in control of our economy and never will be.
In 2007/8 Capitalism collapsed... Globally - and to think some are blaming the SNP for the fall-out!
Have a play on this web site if you don’t believe me.
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt
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And the unconditional and infinite love-in of the SNP continues another day.
19. But you're right, Electric Hermit. How dare the media criticise the government of the day!
Who gave them the right to do that?! Oh yes, it's their legal right.
Well, it's not as if the same press are criticising the UK government...oh, wait. They are.
Well, it's not as if they ever criticised Labour when they were in power....oh, wait. They did.
Well, how can the SNP be at fault for any economic mismanagement?!...Oh wait. They've been in power for well over three years, have absolute control over almost all public spending in Scotland, including a budget of £35billion, and have the power to change our income taxes, business taxes and property taxes to suit our economy, but have done nothing.
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22. Wee-Scamp, are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't support the SNP, as you do, is stupid/ignorant?
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Same ole' same ole', lets put the blame on the other yins! This whole mess is soley laid at the doorstep of capitalisim! Greed begets Greed!
For those of us who live in council estates / lower level private schemes, take a walk into the really expensive high level private sector housing developments, then look at the driveways some sporting expensive trinkets! Then have a look at those older money generation of days gone by, older dwellings for sure but the same expensive X ? trinkets.....
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Off topic I see that Lib Dem MSP Jim Tolson has come out against the Tory/LD decision to hold the AV Referendum on the same day as the Scottish GE.Well done to him for speaking out.Will any of his colleagues follow him?
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Who is to blame?
http://the-universality-of-cheese.blogspot.com/2010/10/neither-borrower-nor-lender-be.html
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22. Wee-Scamp
"Nobody could possibly deny that Labour are responsible for creating the conditions in which cuts have become inevitable."
Certainly! But it would be a dangerous over-simplification to place responsibility entirely on the British Labour Party. As far as deregulation of financial institutions is concerned the Red Tories were merely following in the footsteps of the Blue Tories who preceded them.
And, despite the not wholly reasonable decision to leave "bankers" out of the options we should never ever forget that it is their greed and incompetence that underlies the whole sorry mess. It is damning enough, but all that can be said of the Tweedle Parties is that they failed abysmally in their duty of oversight.
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Brian wrote "Asked who was most responsible for pending cuts, Scots tended to choose the former UK Labour government over the present UK coalition, with a small proportion pinning the blame on the SNP Scottish Government."
Brian - you and your colleagues are obviously not doing your job well enough - but keep trying, and eventually most Scots will blame the SNP for the cuts, the weather and even Craig Levein's tactics!
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26. Reluctant-Expat
"...are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't support the SNP, as you do, is stupid/ignorant?"
Do your posts constitute evidence?
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#24
No you cannot of course blame Labour or the Tories for the economic condition of other countries nor the impact that has had here. However you can blame Labour in particular for failing to spot what the banks were up to and what the City was up to generally. You can also blame them for failing to deal with the trade gap, household debt, the sell off of major companies to foreign owners, supporting offshoring jobs, not allowing the BoE to squeeze out house price inflation and standing by as the wealth gap grew, venture capital funding collapsed and so on and so forth. They also of course raised taxes and public spending.
In short - what Labour failed completely to do was to ensure our economy was strong enough to withstand the impact of the recession and the effect on us of problems in other countries.
For the damage that has caused they should never be forgiven.
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SNP (and their supporters) are a rather confused lot: they criticised Labour for underfunding of many services and at the same time they also stated that they 'overspent.' When the cuts were announced they blamed them on Labour's overspending, but wait a minute, if they overspent then surely it follows that there should be a reduction in spending.
So which is it? Did Labour overspend or underspend?
Try debating that one with an SNP supporter. What you will face is a torrent of abuse and accusations of being a 'Westminster Drone, bow down to your masters in Westminster, etc.'
Truth is the SNP and their followers have no real policies, and furthermore they have no price tag on any promises they make: the oil will pay for every promise ten times over apparently.
The SNP are just a party with a single policy: independence for Scotland. Sad to see that so many people up here are motivated by parochial, tribal instincts.
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25. At 12:22pm on 12 Oct 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
'Well, how can the SNP be at fault for any economic mismanagement?!...Oh wait. They've been in power for well over three years, have absolute control over almost all public spending in Scotland, including a budget of £35billion, and have the power to change our income taxes, business taxes and property taxes to suit our economy, but have done nothing.'
Remember as well Ex-Pat, the SNP constantly cite us a 'Nordic European Nation' and refer to those nations as a model for an independent Scotland. These countries have VAT levels at 20-25% and much higher levels of Personal Income Tax. This is something the SNP never mention when referring to their 'superior public services.' What political party in their right mind would put plans to rocket levels of taxation in their manifesto in order to realise the dream of an independent Scotland? None would of course, but this will ultimately follow if Scotland goes independent.
All the SNP do is keep their Orwellian Hate Hour going, appealing to the baser tribalist nationalist tendencies amongst their followers, blaming everything on Westminster, whilst taking credit for neglible improvements to any statistic.
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32. Electric Hermit
LUVITT!
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The sky is cloudy - Labour's fault.
Scotland will be beaten by Spain - Labour's fault.
The banks did not make a mess worldwide - Labour's fault.
Labour is responsible for everything that goes wrong.
I'm not a Labour supporter but I wonder for what else they will be handed the blame.
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34. Secret Civil Servant
You are RE2 and I claim the £5.00.
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#30 Electric Hermit
As far as deregulation of financial institutions is concerned the Red Tories were merely following in the footsteps of the Blue Tories who preceded them.
Yes that's absolutely right but it's not what people really expected is it. Most thought that when Labour came in 97 they would in fact roll back some of the more harmful deregulation and do much more to rebalance the economy. In fact though Labour allowed the imbalances to grow which I really found completely bizarre.
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Ziggy, are Labour responsible for anything?
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#33 wee-scamp
None of which you mentioned started in 1997. It was going on long before Labour took over and will continue with the coalition.
Red, Blue, Yellow - they are all the same party. A neo-conservative, free-market libertarian anarchist party!
If you want to blame politicians, you have to blame all of them.
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34. "Truth is the SNP and their followers have no real policies, and furthermore they have no price tag on any promises they make."
We hear constant complaints from the SNP that they could do more if they had full fiscal control but we never hear what they would do with such control, nor do we see them making any use of the considerable fiscal powers they already have.
As well as control over income taxes, business taxes and property taxes, the SNP also has a budget ten times that of London, which has a population 60% larger than Scotland and a GVA double the size.
Yet, we see absolutely no sign of an SNP economic policy with regards full fiscal autonomy other than "We want it!".
Saying that, we don't see an SNP economic policy with the powers they already have!
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39. "We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity, as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in 'gold-plated' regulation."
Alex Salmond, 2007.
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34. Secret Civil Servant
"The SNP are just a party with a single policy: independence for Scotland."
Congratulations. It couldn't have been easy avoiding all the information that is out there regarding SNP policies in every area. But you managed it.
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25. At 12:22pm on 12 Oct 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
Well, how can the SNP be at fault for any economic mismanagement?!...Oh wait. They've been in power for well over three years, have absolute control over almost all public spending in Scotland, including a budget of £35billion, and have the power to change our income taxes, business taxes and property taxes to suit our economy, but have done nothing.
This is disingenuous. None of the powers the Scottish Parliament have in terms of Scotlands economy would have even dented the onslaught the UK Labour government allowed to happen. Interest rates and inflation for example, the power to print money...
£35 billion is merely a figure, its a finite sum of money and its entirely moot as a point since the Scottish parliament have no control over either increasing or decreasing it.
The Scottish parliament at the moment is in a position of direct responsibility but oblique control and it can't go on.
We need to decide one way or another, we either commit to being part of the union or we go independant.
That is all.
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35. Secret Civil Servant
"All the SNP do is keep their Orwellian Hate Hour going..."
I keep hearing about this from the unionist cabal's amateur propagandists, but I have yet to see it for myself. Perhaps you would be good enough to point me in the right direction. Maybe you could give some examples of this alleged hate-fest. Your unionist pal, Reluctant-Expat, has been challenged on this countless times. But, like you, he can only retreat into a torrent of rather infantile abuse and transparent lies.
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So, Scots collectively blame the UK Labour government for the mess we're in? Yet, we will continue to vote Labour over all else, and continue to vote UK over Scotland? What is wrong with us? If we were a person we would be in serious need of counselling.
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37. ziggyboy
"I'm not a Labour supporter but I wonder for what else they will be handed the blame. "
If you want to argue that the Red Tories should not be accountable for the things that went wrong while they were the party of government, please feel free to do so.
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39. Wee-Scamp
"#30 Electric Hermit
As far as deregulation of financial institutions is concerned the Red Tories were merely following in the footsteps of the Blue Tories who preceded them.
Yes that's absolutely right but it's not what people really expected is it."
That is true. Although I was never taken in by Weasel Blair to the extent that some were I certainly did not expect such a massive betrayal of people's trust.
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45. "£35 billion is merely a figure, its a finite sum of money and its entirely moot as a point since the Scottish parliament have no control over either increasing or decreasing it."
Yes, they do. They can cut or raise the taxes they have control of, ie. income, business and property taxes.
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#49 Eletric Hermit
I wasn't arguing in favour of Labour but merely pointing out that there were other factors in the financial mess not just the Labour Party. Greedy bankers come to mind.
When it all goes belly up for the Coalition - I wonder who they will blame?
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51. Reluctant-Expat
"And as for examples of nationalist anti-UK hatred"
Seems you can't find any. What a surprise!
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As always, Electric Hermit, your selective memory is a source of great entertainment.
Based solely on your many comments, I'm quite confident that you seriously believe the UK is stealing Scotland's oil (even the SNP know it isn't), that there is a state-media conspiracy to suppress/oppress/repress the SNP and Scottish nationalism (of course there isn't), that RBS and HBOS aren't Scottish banks (everybody else knows otherwise), that you have always provided proof to your increasingly bizarre claims when challenged (you never do), that you never "retreat into a torrent of rather infantile abuse and transparent lies" (that's all you do!).....
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51. Reluctant-Expat
"
And as for examples of nationalist anti-UK hatred"
Oh! I get it! You can't tell the difference between political opposition and "hatred". That'll happen if you're daft enough to imagine everybody is as deeply immersed in irrational hatred as George Foulkes and Jim Murphy and that other one who's too much of a nonentity for his name to stick.
Grey?
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#47
'Scots collectively blame the UK Labour government for the mess we're in?'
The Poll asked to pick a party to blame, or none.
There was no option for ALL of them!
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50. At 2:39pm on 12 Oct 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
45. "£35 billion is merely a figure, its a finite sum of money and its entirely moot as a point since the Scottish parliament have no control over either increasing or decreasing it."
Yes, they do. They can cut or raise the taxes they have control of, ie. income, business and property taxes.
Which would have made heehaw difference in reality. As I understand it if the Scottish parliament reaised income tax, the UK parliament would reduce the block grant respectively; there'd be no difference.
The tax raising powers were never designed to be used, it was a sop to the Nationilasts, nothing more. They took it because that is all that was on offer. Calman goes no further either.
Persons like yourself can say "ah but the SNP could raise taxes" but at the same time know, no one in power at Holyrood could ever do it because a) its pointless and b) it wouldn't work anyway.
Like I said: disingenuous.
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#51. At 2:45pm on 12 Oct 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"And as for examples of nationalist anti-UK hatred"
You appear to be citing BT's pieces as examples? A bit harsh (or have you gone off half-cocked again).
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#49 Ziggy Boy
True - greedy bankers had a lot to do with the financial mess we're in but we must not forget that the regulatory regime set up to watch over the City was established by Labour and Gordon Brown in particular and I simply do not believe that it wasn't capable of understanding what was going on. After all, lots of commentators and many then opposition politicians were warning about problems such as household debt, house pricea, the trade gap and Govt overspending long before the credit crunch and the banks coming close to collapse.
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R-E wrote "...that RBS and HBOS aren't Scottish banks (everybody else knows otherwise)..."
Is it your contentions that they were purely Scottish banks? For the purpose of supporting the argument that; if Scotland were independant it would've had to bail them out itself and could never have afforded to do so?
These banks paid tax to the UK exchequer, surely they are 'UK' banks. Arch-unionists seem to want to have their cake and eat it. You can't on the one hand say, "we'll have all the tax revenue when things are rosey" but then say "Oh dear, its gone to the wall, you're on your own."
If that is truly what you believe, debating with you will be pointless as it is a bit of a silly supposition.
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42. At 2:18pm on 12 Oct 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
nor do we see them making any use of the considerable fiscal powers they already have.
You consider the current Scottish Government's fiscal powers as 'considerable'.
Ah, I do so miss Baldrick from Blackadder, its good to see that
kind of slapstick humour revisited.
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57. pa_broon: "As I understand it if the Scottish parliament reaised income tax, the UK parliament would reduce the block grant respectively; there'd be no difference."
You understand wrong. Who told you that?
Any change in tax receipts would stay with Holyrood.
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#59
You would think this was the first recession we ever had.
It was a bubble. It burst. Again!
The referee had changed but the game is still the same!
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Here we go again.
60. If Scotland was independent when RBS and HBOS hit the skids, which country would have needed to bail them out?
We're part of the UK so the UK bailed them out.
But do you seriously think the rest of the UK would have stepped forward and bailed out these two Scottish-based banks if we weren't? No, of course not.
Enough of this nonsense. The Scottish Parliament and Goverment treat these as Scottish banks. You nationalists may want to disown them now they've gone under, but you are on your own.
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60. pa_broon74
"You can't on the one hand say, "we'll have all the tax revenue when things are rosey" but then say "Oh dear, its gone to the wall, you're on your own.""
But the less intellectually acute unionists can and do say precisely this. Ad nauseam! If, prior to the collapse, anyone had suggested that these banks were "Scottish" and should, therefore, be subject to regulation and taxation by the Scottish Government on behalf of the Scottish people, then these same unionists would have been in a frothy frenzy of outrage. It's the kind of hypocrisy we've all become accustomed to from the Tory/BLP alliance.
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61. Current fiscal powers allow a Scottish Government to vary public sector revenue by +/- 10%.
I call that considerable.
To put that into some context, the SNP have been protesting for a while now that their budget might be cut by just 1.5%.
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Post 65 = Electric Hermit "retreats into a torrent of rather infantile abuse and transparent lies"
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Shome mishtake shirly?
"Halifax plans BoS merger to create 'fifth force' in banking.
Halifax and BoS said any transaction would be structured on a one-forone share exchange ratio. That would give Halifax shareholders ownership of 62 per cent of the combined group. BoS shares closed at 803p, valuing the company at £10.4bn, while Halifax stock finished at 768p, a rise of 4.1 per cent that valued the group at £17.3bn. Halifax, Britain's largest mortgage lender, floated in June 1997, its shares commencing trading at 775p."
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37 Ziggyboy wrote "The sky is cloudy - Labour's fault.
Scotland will be beaten by Spain - Labour's fault.
The banks did not make a mess worldwide - Labour's fault.
Labour is responsible for everything that goes wrong.
I'm not a Labour supporter but I wonder for what else they will be handed the blame."
Electing Iain Gray et al thank goodness.
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#64
Are you arguing the UK would be better off without Scotland then?
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#66, R-E
*yawn*
"Current fiscal powers allow a Scottish Government to vary public sector revenue by +/- 10%."
please enlighten me as to when the Calman proposals were implemented?
The current rate is +- 3%. Not only that, but the money received by the Scottish governemnt is based on an estimation (non-negotiable) of the tax that will received. We are not even allowed to see the calculations. So the UK treasury is perfectly within its rights to say that due to the higher tax, people will move south, so we'll reduce the expected tax take of Scotland, and give you less.
#62
What part of halifax, natwest and northern rock were Scottish?
#54
I refer you back to all our previous discussions on oil, in which you have produced nothing to support your assertion that "we get all the oil money" as if it is a block of money over and above our grant. So once again, we are given a block gran that is larger than the tax take for oil, but is not as large as we would have to spend were we independant. there is a net flow of cash to the rest of the UK from Scotland.
#50
So no real levers then.
#43
"regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector"
note the words "Suitable" and "Scottish"
#43
"Yet, we see absolutely no sign of an SNP economic policy with regards full fiscal autonomy other than "We want it!"."
I refer you to brian's previous blog: "alternative Scenario"
John
ps #35 Schizophrenia is a serious condition, you should get it checked out.
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64. Reluctant-Expat
"If Scotland was independent when RBS and HBOS hit the skids, which country would have needed to bail them out?"
None. As has been explained to you on countless occasions the bail-out that the UK government chose was not the only option. No point in explaining the other options as you clearly cannot understand even that there might be more than one.
Another thing you don't understand (the list is endless!) is the fact that, supposing these banks had been "Scottish" in the childishly simplistic sense that you imagine, then the Scottish exchequer would have had the benefit of all the tax revenues that, in reality, went to the UK exchequer to be squandered on foreign military adventures and redundant military hardware.
As I've told you before, when you play "just suppose" then you have to be grown up about it and realise that others can do their own just supposing. You just don't get to determine which suppositions are permissible and which are not.
Cue screaming and stamping of feet...
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71. Your entire post is again a mess of misunderstanding, misinterpretation, selective quotes, not reading my posts properly and plentiful nationalist lies and nonsense. In summary, you are dropping rapidly down to JRMacClure levels of ineptitude and irrelevance. Exercise caution.
72. Always with the insults. And, pray, what alternative way would Scotland have sorted out the failed HBOS and RBS? What alternative to £470bn is there?
We all watched as the SNP, our supposed government, were laid pathetic, helpless, hapless, silent and dumbstruck as the banking failures unfolded and the bail-out was drawn up and implemented.
Otherwise, as always with you, it's all denial and counter-claim.....with absolutely zero evidence.
Also as always, we both know I'm not the one "stamping and screaming" here, don't we.
Yes.
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#71
Correction, the +- 10% was not referring to the income tax rate.
What precisely is "public sector revenue" Do you mean "public sector budget" (i.e. the block grant), revenue from the public sector (i.e.all tax takes, inc. business, income, council, duty, excise, TV, etc), or do you mean something different? Are you just making up terminology? Please let us know.
John
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This is seriously worth repeating:
72. Electric Hermit:"the Scottish exchequer would have had the benefit of all the tax revenues that, in reality, went to the UK exchequer to be squandered on foreign military adventures and redundant military hardware."
Forced back to that tired old line again, eh?
That's total, absolute and complete delusionary nonsense and you know it. Or do you? Again, even the SNP can't and won't say such silliness.
It is highly entertaining (and one of the main reasons I keep coming back!) how you nationalists steadfastly refuse to believe even the SNP when they say something that discredits nationalist myth.
You go ahead and cling to your reality. Cling with all your might. And never, ever let go.
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#73
"Your entire post is again a mess of misunderstanding, misinterpretation, selective quotes, not reading my posts properly and plentiful nationalist lies and nonsense. In summary, you are dropping rapidly down to JRMacClure levels of ineptitude and irrelevance. Exercise caution."
please refer me to which part of this actually contains an argument. Please also refer me to the part that cannot be considered "retreats into a torrent of rather infantile abuse"
John
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I see RE is playing the "what if" game again, what if Scotland had been independent what about the banks.
You really have to appreciate that to play the "what if" game you have to be able to imagine all the possibilities and not just the wee one that suits you. Your argument assumes that an independent Scotland would have continued with exactly the same regulatory regime, that the bank had remained head-quartered in Scotland, I say bank as HBOS is debatable as Scottish as the main part of its operation is of course what used to be Halifax, which is not head quarted in Edinburgh.
Anyway according to the treasury the actual cost of supporting the banks, all the UK banks was £6bn, here is wee link for you to read for yourself. http://tinyurl.com/38x8ua6 and if you do not believe Bloombergs,perhaps the Treasuries own document will help you http://tinyurl.com/2u2lprm
Enjoy your reading and for heavens sake try and change the record, you come on here every day and no matter the topic post the same stuff over and over and over again.
As I quoted earlier "....fool some of the people some of the time....."
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73. Reluctant-Expat
"And, pray, what alternative way would Scotland have sorted out the failed HBOS and RBS? What alternative to £470bn is there?"
This has all been explained to you before. But you just keep coming back with the same gibberish no matter how often your silliness is exposed. That is why you are marked as a troll. Nobody would bother with you if it were not for the fact that you pathetic anti-Scottish propaganda has to be exposed for the dishonest nonsense it is.
Baby steps! Try to keep up.
Can you at least recognise that, had these banks been "Scottish" in the childishly simplistic way you hypothesise, then all the tax revenues over the years and decades would have accrued to the Scottish exchequer? Will you accept that this would have had a significant impact on the overall wealth of the country and, therefore, on the resources available to the Scottish Government in addressing any financial crisis? If you can just grasp these as essential consequence of your little game of "just supposing" then perhaps we can move on to something a little more testing for you.
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75. Reluctant-Expat
"72. Electric Hermit:"the Scottish exchequer would have had the benefit of all the tax revenues that, in reality, went to the UK exchequer to be squandered on foreign military adventures and redundant military hardware."
Forced back to that tired old line again, eh?
That's total, absolute and complete delusionary nonsense and you know it. "
OK! That's clear enough. In your game of "just supposing" you are "just supposing" that the banks were "Scottish" banks but not paying tax in Scotland. Where do you "just suppose" these "Scottish" banks would have been paying tax?
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#73, RE
"And, pray, what alternative way would Scotland have sorted out the failed HBOS and RBS? What alternative to £470bn is there?"
You don't listen RE, please just consider these points.
1. As has been said, over and over and over, and which you somehow refuse to accept, HBOS and RBS pay all their taxes to the UK treasury and are regulated by UK authorities. They are therefore, quite reasonably, UK banks.
2. It was under the economic stewardship of Labour and the UK that the banks got into trouble.
3. The UK government will receive more than its pound of flesh from HBOS and RBS. It's premium for bailing them out is a staggering 12%. The US government demanded 5% from its banks, and Warren Buffet, a private individual, is taking 10% for his investment.
4. Norway's impressive financial sector was underpinned by it's enormous oil fund, built up over 12 years, which protected its banks from the worst of the crisis. They certainly faired significantly better than the UK banks. Oh, if only Scotland had such resources.
5. The UK deficit (that's the UK deficit, the same UK which we should be so pleased to be part of), will shortly reach 1trillion. The UK has only one capital asset approaching that value which could possibly underpin such a debt, and that's the future revenues from North Sea Oil and Gas which, as it happens, are valued at 1trillion.
Taking all of those FACTS into account, I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that an independant Scotland, with full control of it's resources, would have been well placed to weather the storm. I think it's also reasonable to suggest that we would be significantly better off than we are now and we wouldn't be facing such deep cuts.
Now, you can come back and say "oh come on, these are all lies, you're all talking rubbish", and you can say it with as much conviction as you like, but you're still wrong.
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77. One more time! For that final estimated cost of £6bn to occur (and that is still only a best case scenario, as the corporate restructuring, debt recovering etc. has not finished by a long shot), the initial £470bn bail-out had to come first. Or do you seriously think £6bn is the only amount that has been spent on the banks?
78. Astonishing. Totally detached from reality. EH actually believes tax revenues have been taken out of Scotland never to return. Not a shred of evidence to support it, the SNP also refute such silliness and nonsense, but he considers it absolute fact nonetheless.
Just astonishing.
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78. EH: "you pathetic anti-Scottish propaganda"
Ah, again as I'm anti-nationalist and enjoy tearing apart baseless and unsubstantiated nationalist myth, I'm therefore "anti-Scottish".
Grow up, Electric Hermit. You are being very, very childish.
Are the remainder of your fellow Scots who do not support the SNP also "anti-Scottish"? Is that how you see the rest of your countrymen and women?
We regularly see other nationalists refer to anyone who doesn't support the SNP as "stupid" and "ignorant".
No wonder the SNP is losing so much support. Roll on May 2011 when we kick such intolerance and bigotry out of Bute House.
Roll on May 2011.
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Oops, let's not forget those other bastions of nationalist intolerance:
Anyone who doesn't support the SNP, nationalism and independence are also "traitors" and "quislings".
Nationalism: The true stain on Scottish society.
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@R-E.
Simple question.
In an independant Scotland would the The bank of and the Royal Bank of Scotland have been paying tax revenues to the UK exchequer or the Scottish Exchequer.
A simple one or the other will suffice.
Ta.
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81. Reluctant-Expat
"78. Astonishing. Totally detached from reality. EH actually believes tax revenues have been taken out of Scotland never to return. Not a shred of evidence to support it, the SNP also refute such silliness and nonsense, but he considers it absolute fact nonetheless.
Just astonishing."
I have to agree. It certainly is astonishing that you can be so obtuse. Seems the "baby steps" were not "baby" enough for you. Let's have another go.
In the real world, the banks you refer to as "Scottish" were regulated and taxed by the UK government. OK so far?
In an independent Scotland these "Scottish" banks would have been regulated and taxed by the Scottish government. Not going too fast for you, am I?
Let's make up a figure for the purposes of illustration and say that, over a few decades, the banks paid a total of £10billion in tax. Not too much of a strain so far, I hope.
Whatever the actual figure, surely even you can accept that, however significant that figure was in terms of the UK economy as a whole, it must inevitably be considerably more significant in terms of the smaller Scottish economy. In the same way that £100 is worth more to a person with living in a small flat with no dependants than it is to someone living in a large house with a large family.
Therefore, without even taking account of the oil revenues and other taxation that would have accrued to the Scottish exchequer, the tax paid by the "Scottish" banks would have had more impact on Scotland's wealth, relative to the effect on UK wealth. Thereby putting an independent Scotland in a relatively better position to deal with economic turmoil.
Your problem is that you want to "just suppose" an independent Scottish government being responsible for the failings of "Scottish" banks while "just supposing" that their are absolutely no other implications of independence. Not very clever!
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34. Secret Civil Servant
"The SNP are just a party with a single policy: independence for Scotland. Sad to see that so many people up here are motivated by parochial, tribal instincts. "
What you mean the same parochial, tribal instincts that the Unionists like you are motivated by--the one that says you'll go down with the British sinking ship no matter what.
Ah, that one. Right. Just clarifying. :-)
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82. Reluctant-Expat
"We regularly see other nationalists refer to anyone who doesn't support the SNP as "stupid" and "ignorant"."
Unfortunately, so much of the argument from ideological unionists is "stupid" and "ignorant". As you repeatedly demonstrate. Nationalists such as myself constantly plead for a unionist who is willing and able to advance a cogent, rational case for the union instead of the incessantly repeated lies, ill-informed nonsense and hateful bile pumped out by such as you.
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80. Paul McDonald
"5. The UK deficit (that's the UK deficit, the same UK which we should be so pleased to be part of), will shortly reach 1trillion. The UK has only one capital asset approaching that value which could possibly underpin such a debt, and that's the future revenues from North Sea Oil and Gas which, as it happens, are valued at 1trillion.
"
Something that Scots would do well to give some VERY serious thought, because that figure is set to get much, much worse, not better.
Of course, fervent knee-jerk BritNats like R-E will come along and wail that an independent Scotland might be a few billion in deficit (compared to that trillion). Oh, woe is him!
That would be terrible wouldn't it? Well, not really. Join the real world.
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reluctant expat
Just because it's called a scotch egg doesn't make it Scottish.French fries are not French. RBOS and HBOS are not Scottish banks.
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87. Electric Hermit
"82. Reluctant-Expat
"We regularly see other nationalists refer to anyone who doesn't support the SNP as "stupid" and "ignorant"."
Unfortunately, so much of the argument from ideological unionists is "stupid" and "ignorant". As you repeatedly demonstrate. Nationalists such as myself constantly plead for a unionist who is willing and able to advance a cogent, rational case for the union instead of the incessantly repeated lies, ill-informed nonsense and hateful bile pumped out by such as you.
"
Indeed. It is very hard for me to believe that the bile and spite that R-E spits out (supposedly about his own nation--but there are serious doubts about that) are the best arguments for the Union. The "without the union Scots would starve to death in the dark" arguments just don't wash nor do the constant "nationalists are meanie-heads" whines.
If someone would come along and instead of constantly attacking Scotland, would in fact defend the Union, I think a lot of people would give them kudos. There have to be some "cogent, rational" pro-Unionist arguments, but they certainly never appear in R-E's posts.
As for R-E, his vision of defending the Union goes no further than this: Guide for Unionists.
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89. zorbathejock
"reluctant expat
Just because it's called a scotch egg doesn't make it Scottish.French fries are not French. RBOS and HBOS are not Scottish banks.
"
The curious thing is that, notwithstanding the extreme dubiousness of this asserted "Scottishness", Reluctant-Expat posits a scenario in which the government of an independent Scotland would be obliged to bail out financial institutions from which it receives no tax and over which it has no regulatory control.
Why?
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Admitting that I am as guilty as anybody of allowing Reluctant-Expat to divert discussion with his infantile nonsense, perhaps I can attempt to get back on topic by asking why it is that the very suggestion of an alternative approach to addressing the economic situation is treated as heresy? Why is it wrong to consider anything other than the massive, rapid cuts proposed by the old parties? What is so abhorrent about a more considered approach?
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Before they achieved independence, every single nation state had a number of "Ex-Pots" spinning, twisting, fiddling, guddling and muddling. I think most faded into obscurity as the move towards self-determination became unstopppable.
You don't meet many Latvians longing for the USSR.
Or Croatians longing for the FYR.
Or Dubliners wishing for Westminster rule.
Ad infintum.
Wonder why that is R-e?
Slainte Mhor
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#92 - "Why is it wrong to consider anything other than the massive, rapid cuts proposed by the old parties? What is so abhorrent about a more considered approach?"
Wouldn't that be conceeding that Westminster doesn't know best when it comes to the Scottish economy?
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94. ForteanJo
"Wouldn't that be conceeding that Westminster doesn't know best when it comes to the Scottish economy?"
I take that as a given.
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92. Electric Hermit
"Admitting that I am as guilty as anybody of allowing Reluctant-Expat to divert discussion with his infantile nonsense, perhaps I can attempt to get back on topic by asking why it is that the very suggestion of an alternative approach to addressing the economic situation is treated as heresy? Why is it wrong to consider anything other than the massive, rapid cuts proposed by the old parties? What is so abhorrent about a more considered approach?"
I don't think there is. I haven't been happy with the handling of this "crisis" in my own country and think maybe it's time for all of us to look at alternatives.
I wish Oldnat were here to look at the questions on that poll though. I find them very questionable and I have some experience in writing questionable polling questions. They were easily misinterpreted or at any rate interpreted differently than the BBC is positing.
For example: "Who do you think is most responsible for the spending cuts about to be announced?" is a very different question from "Who do you think is most responsible for the UK deficit?" Yet the first question is being interpreted by the BBC as MEANING the second. Some (perhaps many) people meant the second very probably but in a properly done survey, WE WOULD KNOW WHAT THEY MEANT BECAUSE THE QUESTION WOULD HAVE BEEN PROPERLY PHRASED.
Even WORSE is a following question: Supposedly 55% agree with the proposition that: "The Scottish government should use its tax raising powers to minimise spending cuts needed in Scotland."
However this SAME survey had some 70% OPPOSE increasing taxes. Now how many of those 55% realised that that very opaquely phrased "Scottish government" question meant RAISE TAXES? We are supposed to believe that 55% of Scots want Scotland to be the most heavily taxed region of the UK? Want to pay substantially higher taxes?
I am, to put it mildly in view of the very poor wording which does NOT even MENTION that this would RAISE Scottish taxes, sceptical and the answers to the question (the ONLY one clearly stated so that it is not ambiguous) "Broadly speaking, which comes closest to your view?" Only 12% answered "Government should mainly focus on increasing taxes".
I will therefore say that in my view this is a VERY poorly devised poll and is best ignored.
VERY bad job, yet again, BBC.
(However, back to your question, E-H, I would say that looking at a full range of options is a very good idea)
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Who is to blame, WESTMINSTER WESTMINSTER WESTMINSTER, if we were independent none of this would be necessary . Glasgow when are you going to realise this.
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The poll asked: "From the following, who do you think is most responsible for the spending cuts that are soon to be announced."
Can we take it from that question that the respondents were given a multiple choice of British political parties? And if so, why were the SNP included in the list, seeing as they have no control over Westminster's economic decisions? Where UKIP, BNP and Plaid Cymru also included in the multiple choice?
Quite an ambiguous question and very much a loaded one which could be easily manipulated for the benefit of the true culprits. The only obvious answer to that question would have to be: The present London Government.
Had the question been: "Who was most responsible for getting us into this terrible mess?" The only obvious question would have to be: The London Labour Party.
The fact that some Scots are of the opinion that the SNP are somehow responsible for the state of the UK's economy, and the ensuing cuts arising from Labour's mismanagement of said economy, shows that there is a great deal of ignorance re politics in this country.
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96. JRMacClure
"I wish Oldnat were here to look at the questions on that poll though."
All respect to oldnat, but I don't think we need him to tell us this poll is rather badly flawed. If someone asked me, "Who do you think is most responsible for the spending cuts about to be announced?", my first reaction would be to seek clarification about what was meant by "responsible". Does it mean "responsible for imposing them"? Or does it mean "responsible for creating the need for them".
Frankly, I'm dubious about how much this poll contributes to discussion of the situation. About the only things we can take from it are that people don't like either having their taxes increased or their services cut. Who needed a poll to find out that? And the fact that people overwhelmingly blame the Red Tories was made perfectly clear at the last UK general election.
The only possibly interesting this is the finding that 55% agree with the proposition that: "The Scottish government should use its tax raising powers to minimise spending cuts needed in Scotland.". Even if this is cast into doubt by other responses, I nonetheless suspect that it is a far higher proportion than would agree with a similar proposition were it put to people in England. Thus illustrating the very different political, economic and social priorities here in Scotland.
Oldnat would doubtless find a way of making such a comparison. Which is one of the reasons we all miss him.
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#81 RE siad
"One more time! For that final estimated cost of £6bn to occur (and that is still only a best case scenario, as the corporate restructuring, debt recovering etc. has not finished by a long shot), the initial £470bn bail-out had to come first. Or do you seriously think £6bn is the only amount that has been spent on the banks?"
Once again you change the words you use, you really should try to be more precise in your use of language, you swap between cost and spend as if they are the same thing. I was merely pointing out that the Treasury says that the cost of supporting the financial banks was £6bn, I provided the link for you to evidence the accuracy of what I said. The rest of what was "spent" was buying shares and issuing promissory notes has no cost or spend unless they are called upon, the shares have value, in fact they are increasing in value, the notes cost nothing unless they are called in. Simples
I do however note that once again you ignore the parts of posts that you seem to have difficulty in responding to. The "what if " game is a very wide and endlessly flexible game. So what do you think, in your scenario did you allow for the idea that Scotland might not have followed the same economic path, that Scotland might have had an oil fund, that Scotland would have gained from the profits generated by the banks in the good years. Every other country has managed to survive the financial crisis, or do you know of some nation that has ceased to be? its certainly not the one with all the fjords, why do you believe that Scotland as an independent country would uniquely fail to survive? Other small nations without Scotlands resources or talents are managing, many of them better than the UK, so why do you get the idea that we would not manage?
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96. JRMacClure
Edit: I should have said that the question about the Scottish government and taxes did not say that it would mean INCREASING taxes for Scots. The change in wording between the two questions about increasing taxes makes the meaning of the "Scottish government" question very equivocal.
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# 98
"The only obvious question would have to be: The London Labour Party."
Should read: The only obvious answer would have to be: The London Labour Party.
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101. JRMacClure
"I should have said that the question about the Scottish government and taxes did not say that it would mean INCREASING taxes for Scots. The change in wording between the two questions about increasing taxes makes the meaning of the "Scottish government" question very equivocal.
"
I've been looking at the poll again and only just realised that the first question on tax/cut spending preferences related to the UK government, while the later ones are specific to Scotland. The conclusion being that the overwhelming majority of people in Scotland want the UK government to cut spending while the Scottish government raises taxes to ameliorate the impact of such cuts. On the face of it, this seems perfectly reasonable and much what my understanding of Scotland and its people would lead me to expect. As a nation we are not nearly so tax-averse as the rest of the UK appears to be. And nowhere near as tax-averse as the unionist parties with their London-centric priorities assume.
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#83 "Oops, let's not forget those other bastions of nationalist intolerance"
Are some Scottish nationalists intolerant - indeed some are. Problably the same as any other nationality.
But this intolerance does not stretch to invading counties illegally. For this one act, labour must never be forgiven!
C McK
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Dear BBC,
Can you please start a new blog called either "Alex Salmond is a big smelly poo-poo" or "If you scrunch your eyes up REALLY hard, the letters SNP look like an ancient Aramaic word for Be'elzebub - Coincidence? I think not" - thus giving Reluctant Expat a spiritual home where he can comment to his heart's content and actually be on topic.
This would save the rest of us from having to read all the posts he sends from some alternate universe, and from having to go through the predictable hordes of outraged replies.
Thanking you in advance.
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Among the many problems with the BBC's wording of the questions in this poll is their use of "the Government" when they mean "the UK Government", but specifying "the Scottish Government" in their question on the use of the 3p variance power.
Presumably, they asked the questions in the order in which they were reported - so it isn't at all clear which "Government" those polled, thought they were referring to when asked about "the Government".
The contradiction between 74% thinking that "Government should mainly focus on cutting spending" as against only 25% agreeing that "Government should mainly focus on increasing taxes"; while 55% think Scotland should increase taxes as opposed to only 32% against ; is dramatic.
The causes of this contradiction are unclear, though it seems unlikely that Scots think that only we should self-flagellate by paying more tax and simultaneously enduring more cuts.
What is clear is that the BBC is incapable of asking accurate questions - so what's new?
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103. Electric Hermit
"I've been looking at the poll again and only just realised that the first question on tax/cut spending preferences related to the UK government, while the later ones are specific to Scotland. The conclusion being that the overwhelming majority of people in Scotland want the UK government to cut spending while the Scottish government raises taxes to ameliorate the impact of such cuts. On the face of it, this seems perfectly reasonable and much what my understanding of Scotland and its people would lead me to expect. As a nation we are not nearly so tax-averse as the rest of the UK appears to be. And nowhere near as tax-averse as the unionist parties with their London-centric priorities assume"
You may be right but, in my opinion, the questions are so poorly and contradictorily worded that I would not draw any conclusion from it.
It is essential in any good survey to word the questions so that there is minimal chance of the respondents misunderstanding. That is simply not the case in this survey. It is as poorly done as any I've seen in the past few years--more so and I've seen some poor ones.
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105. InfrequentAllele2
"Can you please start a new blog called either "Alex Salmond is a big smelly poo-poo" or "If you scrunch your eyes up REALLY hard, the letters SNP look like an ancient Aramaic word for Be'elzebub - Coincidence? I think not" - thus giving Reluctant Expat a spiritual home where he can comment to his heart's content and actually be on topic.
This would save the rest of us from having to read all the posts he sends from some alternate universe, and from having to go through the predictable hordes of outraged replies.
Thanking you in advance.
"
=-)
Wonderful suggestion.
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--nor do we see them making any use of the considerable fiscal powers they already have.--
They froze the council tax.
A not inconsiderable achievement considering the culture and mindset of hooray!-free-munney-forever! which successive labour administrations have developed.
The council-tithe needs a massive overhaul.
In the Republic of Ireland they pay ZERO council tax and it's no different from the UK to live in...which shows you the incredible levels of waste councils have managed to achieve in Scotland.
Some serious butt-kicking is long overdue for the public sector.
I hated Maggie as much as the next Jock but I'd let her sort out those council bums in a heartbeat.
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As a newcomer to this blog, I am struck by the remarkable similarity between "Reluctant-Expatriate" and someone called "AM2" who used to post on another (newspaper) blog some time ago.
The same narrow attitude, the same fanatical determination to attack the SNP, the same ability to recall/provide links several years old, the ability to spend a great deal of time to carry out his one-man crusade.
If I remember correctly, he reluctantly admitted to being Irish, and claimed that as a successful businessman he could delegate work, leaving time on his hands to pursue his self-ordained role in life. Why he felt such a calling was never explained.
Most people seemed to come to the conclusion that he was in fact a Labour employee with access to to research facilities, and with paid time to post at all times of day and night.Sometimes his posts were made so soon after the on-line content became available that it appeared he must have had prior knowledge of what was to be published!
No doubt he'll deny any link with that other contributor, but I can't believe there are 2 people so similar.
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106. reincarnation
"The contradiction between 74% thinking that "Government should mainly focus on cutting spending" as against only 25% agreeing that "Government should mainly focus on increasing taxes"; while 55% think Scotland should increase taxes as opposed to only 32% against ; is dramatic.
The causes of this contradiction are unclear, though it seems unlikely that Scots think that only we should self-flagellate by paying more tax and simultaneously enduring more cuts.
What is clear is that the BBC is incapable of asking accurate questions - so what's new?"
More clearly stated than I managed. Whether it's incapable of asking accurate questions or they just don't want to, that I don't know.
I do know that the nature of the questions make this poll absolutely useless for gauging Scottish public opinion.
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Good to see that the BBC wants our views on such issues as its impartiality.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/index.shtml
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At 11:01pm on 12 Oct 2010, seanair wrote:
“As a newcomer to this blog, I am struck by the remarkable similarity between "Reluctant-Expatriate" and someone called "AM2" who used to post on another (newspaper) blog some time ago.”
As I accidentally stumbled in to that forum today and read the madness on there that is the in house trolls of Yeah1 and his wee gang of helpers I made exactly the same connection. Yeah1 is a spin of the old AM2 moniker if not the same. Remember he also set up a Blog which was no more than an Alex Salmond cyber stalking blog. Yeah1 and his many monikers have exactly the same style as they crawl over only stories they think they can spin in to anti Salmond/ SNP diatribes. It is quite creepy, just like R-E on here. Repetitive circular arguing and diverting any thread which the Unionist are taking a beating on. I take it as a compliment to the power of Alex Salmond and the independence argument. Cochrane and his biddy are on the case also. What emotions the man Salmond stirs in the imperialist beast. Cochranes latest diatribe in the Torygraph was pure spite and malice.
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Wow. Secretcivilservant. You really know your cheeses don't you. OR DO YOU? If you care to do you your homework regarding Norways standard of living you will find that they are top of the class.
Tax bteween 20 - 23%. Pray tell what goods fall into the higher tax level. Tobbaco and booze for starters.
Higher income tax. Well i know for a kickoff that the same job as mine in Norway is £18000 a year more. Much higher wages across the board.
Every till in every shop right down to the wee corner shop is directly linked to comms. So no dodging mr tax man. Caught with it unplugged and your in for a hiding.
Free health care for all plus a stonking pension scheme.
Oh i forgot. Right enough. The civil srvice pension scheme in this country is stonking also. Considering they make no contributions towards it.
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The LibDems will make a little fuss over this issue but in the end they will go along with this and every other policy the Tories tell them to. The reason for this is simple; they know that if they don't, and the Government is forced into an early election, they will be absolutely slaughtered at the polls. As it is, whenever the next election is called, they will not taste power again for another eighty years because now people know them for who they really are. I don't think there is too much doubt about Labours slogan at the next election - Vote LibDem get Tory. The LibDems are finished.
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--Cochranes latest diatribe in the Torygraph was pure spite and malice.--
He has no choice, especially as the various elections are rapidly approaching.
If he ever sez that Wee Eck is a dead cool dude he'll get sacked.
Cochrane is just another middle class pundit blindly obeying orders, if he doesn't do as he's telt he'll be parting company with his masters and joining the ranks of the unemployed.
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Remember that the agenda of Cochrane and his like is that no matter what happens anywhere in the UK, its all Alex Salmond fault
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113. Duncansdaddie
"What emotions the man Salmond stirs in the imperialist beast. Cochranes latest diatribe in the Torygraph was pure spite and malice."
You can smell the fear.
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85. Electric Hermit: All the same words (including abuse) but, as usual, still zero evidence.
91. Electric Hermit: Because if Scotland was independent, a Scottish treasury would receive tax revenues, would control regulation and so would be liable for any bail-out. Do you really not see how that fits in with everything I said? Are you really that confused by the concept of an independent Scotland and the liabilities and responsibilities it would have over its own banks if they went under?
92/94. But where is the SNP's alternative? As I said, they were pathetically silent as the crisis unfolded and the bail-out was planned and implemented. If they had an alternative, why didn't they speak up?
100. soosider: "I was merely pointing out that the Treasury says that the cost of supporting the financial banks was £6bn, I provided the link for you to evidence the accuracy of what I said. The rest of what was "spent" was buying shares and issuing promissory notes has no cost or spend unless they are called upon, the shares have value, in fact they are increasing in value, the notes cost nothing unless they are called in. Simples"
Totally wrong. The Treasury says the cost "could be", not "was" as the bail-out is not over yet. Big difference. And ~£200bn was spent, in that money has changed hands, on buying equity in the RBS/HBOS and in giving them liquidity to continue trading. The remainder was in securities.
113. duncansdaddie: Right. So any Scot who's anti-SNP (ie. the overwhelming majority of us) is "anti-Scottish", "a traitor", "a quisling", "stupid", "ignorant" and because we dare to challenge the endemic lies of nationalism on here, we are also "trolls".
Roll on May 2011 when we finally get to send you lot packing.
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83. At 6:07pm on 12 Oct 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
Nationalism: The true stain on Scottish society.
I did not realise there was a stain on Scottish society.
I dont doubt Scotland has a lot of problems just like other countries
but when I look at the ills of Scotland it is not Nationalism that I see.
Mostly I see poverty and lack of investement.
I just wonder what your kind of political kool-aid your
drinking, regular full sugar unionist fizzy perhaps? but
with or without the caffine?.
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106. reincarnation
"Among the many problems with the BBC's wording of the questions in this poll is their use of "the Government" when they mean "the UK Government", but specifying "the Scottish Government" in their question on the use of the 3p variance power."
Is this vagueness intentional, do you think? Or mere incompetence.
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In his Telegraph article Alan Cochrane does the usual unionist sneering at the SNP over failing to secure a referendum while ignoring the fact that Labour and the ConDems are not allowing the Scottish people their right to choose what we do next after more than a decade of devolution.Those who wish the constitutional status quo ought to realise that the staus quo can only have legitimacy if it is chosen by the Scottish electorate in a democratic referendum.Cochrane states that support for independence remains around 30%.Yet he fails to mention that in opinion polls more than 75% of Scots consistently favour various forms of increased powers for the Scottish polity.
Elsewhere on the Telgraph site I noticed a hilarious headline from a news article a few days ago."Salmond to cull Scottish police forces."Not reorganise,reduce number of forces,reduce bureaucracy etc.The Telegraph prefers "cull".No doubt hoping that it would conjure am image in peoples' minds of the First Minister clubbing police officers on a beach.
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118. Good morning, everyone. 'The Nationalists' Biblically Epic And Historic Mutual Support Mighty Super Group With No Yukky Girls!' is now in session.
I see we have lost a few more members but at least there's still a few of us here! Please stop crying, everyone. Sadly, we cannot afford to hire this hall anymore so, from next week, we'll be moving into a cardboard box in an A9 lay-by. It's only borrowed so please take care not to damage it.
Right, everyone close their eyes really tightly and repeat after me:
'All is well. All is well. All is well. All is well. All is well. All is well.'
Okay! Well done! Excellent work, everybody! Now repeat this after me:
'Independence is inevitable. Independence is inevitable. Independence is inevitable.'
Excellent! Don't we all feel a little better now? Of course we do!
Well...That's it. There's nothing left for us here.....so goodbye everybody. If anyone needs a backie on my bicycle to the lay-by next week, please let me know.
And please stop sobbing!
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119. Reluctant-Expat
"But where is the SNP's alternative?"
In your tediously repetitive game of "just supposing" you were not talking about the SNP but the government of an independent Scotland. Only in your shallow mind are these synonymous.
And I would point out that nobody has claimed that the SNP had some miraculous alternative to the bail-out. This is just another of your pathetic straw men. All that has been claimed is that there were alternatives. That you cannot even conceive of such alternatives is just another symptom of your shallow thinking.
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#119 RE wrote
"Totally wrong. The Treasury says the cost "could be", not "was" as the bail-out is not over yet. Big difference. And ~£200bn was spent, in that money has changed hands, on buying equity in the RBS/HBOS and in giving them liquidity to continue trading. The remainder was in securities."
As usual you completely avoid the questions you have difficulty with, the "what if" game
And as usual you quote selectively the treasury does not say "could be" it said it "could be as much as" it also said that the cost might not be know for a few years. Now you introduce a new figure of £200bn, I assume that was to buy the shares in the various Banks, shares which are already returning a dividend and already are worth considerably more than was paid for. But as usual you play fast and lose with language cost, spend money, changing hands you really have to be more precise, but hey that would spoil your fun ;-).
So far from being totally wrong I am actually totally correct, the difference is I can back my point up with official UK government information while you labour to actually sustain a coherent argument.
Back on topic, what do you think of the poll that Brian refers to? do you agree with its findings that the planned cuts are too much too quickly?
What are your views that 16% blame the SNP Holyrood government, while 81% blame Westminster?
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125. Er...what?
Let me guess this straight....
According to you, the Treasury document said the "cost of the bail-out was £6bn". "Was" as in final result.
According to me, the Treasury document said the "cost of the bail-out could be £6bn" and "the bail-out isn't over".
The Treasury document actually said the "cost of the bail-out could be as much as £6bn" and "the bail-out isn't over".
And, according to you, that makes you right and me wrong?
Seriously? That's how you see it?
Superb!
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126. Reluctant-Expat
Leaving aside all your inane ranting for a moment, if you can mange that, maybe you could try to explain why it is that you think that Scotland, uniquely among all the nations of the world, has neither the capacity nor the right to manage its own economic affairs. Because this is the nub of the unionist "argument". As noted on numerous occasions, British nationalists such as yourself never make a case for the union. You simply insist that Scotland must be prohibited from achieving that status that is the right of any nation. Why?
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127. Is your memory really that bad? You are genuinely claiming that you have never heard any argument against independence?
Tell you what, read through my posts and you'll see plenty of arguments against independence and where the many flaws in the nationalist case are explained.
I really, really have no interest or need in locating them all myself.
No doubt you will now claim my boredom with your tedious immaturity (eg. "You simply insist that Scotland must be prohibited from achieving that status". Do grow up.) as some form of victory.
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121. Electric Hermit
"Is this vagueness intentional, do you think? Or mere incompetence."
I suspect, incompetence. They have their own mindset, of course, in which THE Government is the UK one, and they can't get their heads around the idea that there are two.
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#127 Electric Hermit
You are quite correct to highlight the inane scribblings of Mr Cowpat as they are both highly subjective and in places entirely inaccurate. He will learn over time to embrace the inevitability of Independence for Scotland although it will no doubt be a painful experience.
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#128 Expat
Contrary to your wholesale falsehoods, Scotland's problems are not with the SNP; they are irrevocably tied to the wholesale financial disaster visited upon us by UK Labour, and the consequential programme of brutal cuts being implemented so zealously by the ConDems - a reality which, as this week's BBC poll has clearly demonstrated, the Scottish people have grasped only too well.
Your issue, though, is, as always, about you.
A minority of one, with zero credibility and a pack of lies for your personal validation.
Here's to you in your twisted loneliness.
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