Don't frighten the voters!
There has been much talk, rightly, of which options in the Beveridge report on public spending might ultimately find favour with the Scottish government.
Amend or cancel free personal care? No. Curb the scope of free bus passes, top in the BBC Scotland poll? No.
How about halting or reversing the steady reduction in prescriptions charges, then?
That's a no, too, as confirmed this afternoon here at the SNP conference in Perth by Nicola Sturgeon.
However, in a webcast interview with me, John Swinney has eagerly endorsed one proposal from Beveridge: the notion of curbing salaries in the public sector.
Mr Swinney stressed, with notable vigour, that this would indeed form a substantial part of his drive to find the savings which will be required post the Chancellor's statement next Wednesday.
I believe there to be two reasons for this: one numerical, one electoral. Firstly, the sums. John Swinney reminded me that pay accounts for 60 per cent of public sector costs.
Curbing pay, potentially, releases real money.
Coalition government
But then there is the electoral calculation. George Osborne, making his statement on Monday, is facing an election in four years or more.
John Swinney faces the electorate in May.
Mr Osborne and the coalition government are attempting to tailor their programme to fit both what the UK can afford and what the populace will tolerate.
How much more pressing is that latter demand upon Swinney, J.
Public sector pay has the advantage of being both a source of substantial savings - and also a slightly nebulous target. Savings can be made in three ways - all of them short of making an actual, instant cut in take-home pay for individuals.
One, you can freeze or slow recruitment, taking on fewer staff, declining to replace. Two, you can attempt, where possible, to constrain career and salary progression.
And, three, you can freeze the pay awards due to be made annually.
Serious money
In her speech, Nicola Sturgeon announced - alongside that move to scrap prescription charges - that she wants to reduce senior management numbers in the NHS by 25 over the next four years.
This could be serious money: £25m a year, £100m when added to other non-clinical efficiency savings.
But, again, it's long-term, it's nebulous. It does not get people out on the streets - or divert voters to rival parties.
Handled carefully - and it will be - the strategy is to find savings which generate cash but don't frighten the voters or inspire populist campaigns of protest.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~38~RS~)
I'm 
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In my Book there can be a NO better time then right now for Scotland to become completely Independent, since there is very little Westminster can really offer the Scottish People all the while there will be less Block - Funding available in the near future.
So lets hope Scotland will Vote for a New beginning at the next Scottish Elections, so that Business can Plan forward along with a completely Free, and Independent Scottish run Government, for Scotlands future after the pending down - turn ends.
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Completely agree remote control from London has left us economically ruined and has nothing to offer. All their policies are designed for the benefit of London and the detriment of Scotland. Taking control of our country and resources is the only option. Unless we want to spend years of cuts and having no power to help London.
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Will the cuts in public service pay include cuts to BBC salaries? Considering the poor service we get it should do. Fewer managers: more, and better, programmes.
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I understand that the people of Scotland are not as healthy as the other 3 countries within the union, add this to the small population (5 million plus), how would Scotland manage independence. The Scottish people are a proud race of people and would pull together, but I fear the odds may be stacked against them if my facts are correct.
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Mr Taylor wrote:
"But, again, it's long-term, it's nebulous. It does not get people out on the streets - or divert voters to rival parties. "
NONE of the cuts anyone has proposed will take effect immediately. Just look at the 'cuts' or money raising proposals (e.g. VAT) George Osborne proposed in his 'Emergency Budget'and the 'cuts' that are being trailed ahead of hisstatement next week. So your implied criticism of this cut as 'long-term' is rather pointless.
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Lets face it, the only way the good folk of Scotland would not return a SNP government is if,
1. There was a complete media blackout of the SNP and their election campaign.
Or,
2. The public were misinformed by the media or other parties.
Or,
3. Enough of the Scottish public were politically inept to affect the outcome of the election.
Or,
4. The voting system was manipulated in such a manner as to favour a specific party.
Now what are the chances of any or all of this happening?
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I watched the webcast of Taylor vs Swinney. It was sure not a balanced range of questions from the "Scottish people". The sneering, contempt and sheer hatred conveyed in some of these questions could only have come from the Labour party. Yet more manipulation...
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I note from your blog that there appears to be an SNP Conference going on in Perth. Thanks for publishing this important information, however I wonder if your coverage strikes quite the right balance. The SNP is the largest Scottish political party and also the party of government in Scotland. There is a Scottish General election next year and you have just given extensive coverage to the Labour party conference. Can I ask you, as Political Editor, why there is no live televised coverage of the SNP conference on BBC Scotland today?
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A crowd pleaser but stupid. When prescriptions are free and pharmacy medicines are not the first port of call is no longer self medication or pharmacists for advice, more people go to the doctor for a freebee and increase pressure on the health service.Wales is alread finding that out. What the nationalists don't tell you is that UK public services spend more than they receive in taxes . This can happen because London pays more in taxes than it spends in services. In other words London subsidises Scotland. No London means less money ( or more taxes ). And no BBC means no BBC arts subsidy.
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Here is an instant saving of at least £9 million pounds.
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab): To ask the Scottish Executive what funds were allocated to smoking cessation in (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08, (c) 2008-09, (d) 2009-10 and have been allocated in 2010-11, broken down by NHS board and also expressed as a percentage of each board’s budget.
Reply is here:-
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/pqa/wa-10/wa0930.htm
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4.
Country: Population in 2010*
Denmark: 5,543,819
Finland: 5,370,400
Norway: 4,907,700
Ireland: 4,470,700
New Zealand: 4,394,100
Kuwait: 3,051,000
Jamaica: 2,730,000
Latvia: 2,236,300
Slovenia: 2,066,090
Estonia: 1,340,127
Luxembourg: 502,207
Malta: 416,333
Leichtenstein: 35,904
Monaco: 33,000
Which of these countries do you think are too small to manage independence?
*various national sources - see Wikipedia "Countries by Population"
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My Taylor
I have some news for you
We in England are fed up with hearing the continuing whinging and whine-ing , we want more Money we want we want we want more ! and what Scotland thinks and what Scotland says ! who cares
We in England never think about you and your whine-in-gs such a turn of the word scotland sorry but please go Independent please go your own way and take that susan boil with you ,lol
You provide NOTHING MONEY wise it is all take take take !
and the Oil was as usual financed from top to bottom by England
have your bloody oil ! and leave us alone ! LOL ! bye bye
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Brian
Was there any minimum price for alcohol at the SNP conference?
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cm:
#4.
"I understand that the people of Scotland are not as healthy as the other 3 countries within the union, add this to the small population (5 million plus), how would Scotland manage independence. The Scottish people are a proud race of people and would pull together, but I fear the odds may be stacked against them if my facts are correct."
There's a contradiction in your comment. You mentioned 'people of Scotland' and 'race of people' but the notions are different altogether. The people of Scotland are many people. They have came to study or work, maybe even adopted Scotland as their home. The 'race of people' exists already in the tens of millions around the world, which of course is celebrated (more so then in Scotland).
This is the greatest acheivement of Scotland. The ability to welcome and adopt others but also spread our best and brightest to all the corners of the world. The success of a nation is not the health of the people or the size of ones country, it's the minds of those people who grow up and go on to benefit humanity in a positive way.
We are all ambassador's of Scotland.
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#11 G P Walrus
Good point. But let us not forget Quebec (population 7,886,108), which came very close to voting for independence in its most recent independence referendum (in 1995) and will probably go independent after its next one, or Montenegro (population 672,000), whose independence dates only from June 3rd 2006, not to mention San Marino (population 30,000) and Andorra (population 83,888), both of which are in the process of applying for full membership of the European Union. Is the UK going to veto their applications on the ground that they are too wee? Apparently not.
Then again there is Flanders (population 6 million) and Catalonia (population 7,504,881), which are both veering decidedly in the direction of independence. What people are wondering is not so much how Flanders and Catalonia will manage as independent states but how what will remain of Belgium and Spain will manage without them. Similarly, if Scotland opts for independence, it is the viability of what will remain of the near-bankrupt UK state which will give cause for concern rather than the viability of resource-rich Scotland.
If the UK does not need or want Scotland, one cannot but wonder why its anglo-unionist political parties are so intent upon preventing the Scottish Government from holding a referendum on independence.
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#12 Wessexman
I have some news for you
We in England are fed up with hearing the continuing whinging and whine-ing , we want more Money we want we want we want more ! and what Scotland thinks and what Scotland says ! who cares
We in England never think about you and your whine-in-gs such a turn of the word scotland sorry but please go Independent please go your own way and take that susan boil with you ,lol
I think you will have to rewrite your rant it just does not make sense!
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Why, if Scotland were as independent within the EEC as Latvia, does anyone think an English government would have ships built at Rosyth? Why would an English government recruit Scottish soldiers? Could a Scottish government afford to pay the current number of Scottish soldiers, even if it wanted to? Mr Ennis says Scotland can't afford the Union. Could it afford real independence?
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Zergon:
#9.
"In other words London subsidises Scotland. No London means less money ( or more taxes ). And no BBC means no BBC arts subsidy."
William Blake (English poet) - "To generalize is to be an idiot."
Yes, I am implying you are an idiot. London is famous for it's financial services. Those financial services lost untold billions. The UK (as a whole) bailed out those services.
Just who relies upon whom?
I would point out that Scotland has two large money-making industries. The financial sector (Edinburgh) that you believe is great. We also have the energy industry (Aberdeen).
London, bigger then Scotland but certainly lacks the diversity when it comes to industry. It's overrelience of ONE industry is dangerous.
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Salmond & the SNP have an easy ride - they claim the credit for all that goes well and blame the UK (Westminster) Government for any problems.
The per capita allocation under the Barnett formula means that the Scottish government can indulge in free prescriptions and higher education which we in England cannot. Yet, there is remarkably little resentment in England, probably due to ignorance, of this feather bedding treatment.
As an aged 60+ geordie I have never worried about such favorable treatment. Even though NE England is as deserving of subsidies. However I now feel an increasing resentment at the comments of the SNP - but we should remember that they are a minority. Once we step back from the cheap nationalsm of Braveheart and the "I support anyone England is playing" (inferiority complex?) - we find that most thinking Scots realise that Scotland is stronger and safer within the UK envelope.
Things have gone a bit quiet on the "let's emulate Iceland and the Irish Celtic Tiger" front of late. Scotland could not have bailed out RBS.
Of course, secession can be a two-way issue. The Confederated States of USA wanted to secede but the Union didn't agree and stopped it. So, perhaps we should invite English voters to express a view as to whether we want to continue to subsisise a bunch of ingrates.
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16. Roll_On_2011
"what Scotland thinks and what Scotland says ! who cares
"
The rest of the world is sick of hearing the English whinge on and on about how only they matter. So suck it up.
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Wessexman:
#12.
"We in England are fed up with hearing the continuing whinging and whine-ing , we want more Money we want we want we want more ! and what Scotland thinks and what Scotland says ! who cares"
Well, 'We in England' what do you expect to find on a blog concerning Scottish affairs? Issues in the USA? You certainly care enough to post a comment!
"We in England never think about you and your whine-in-gs such a turn of the word scotland sorry but please go Independent please go your own way and take that susan boil with you ,lol"
Okay, 'We in England' but again, you MUST think about Scotland. You make the effort to go online and comment on a blog that is mainly about affairs in Scotland.
"You provide NOTHING MONEY wise it is all take take take !
and the Oil was as usual financed from top to bottom by England
have your bloody oil ! and leave us alone ! LOL ! bye bye"
Nothing? I must be wrong but I thought I paid taxes, or have I been conned? Since when did Scots not pay taxes. *shock face*
The oil industry? The same industry that saved the UK economy in the 70's and is now owned by large multi-national companies? Do you not understand the concept of selling off state assets? It means the state no longer owns such assets!
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12. At 6:36pm on 16 Oct 2010, Wessexman wrote:
My Taylor
I have some news for you
interesting this blogger only registered to blog today and has only made one blog. hello ex pat!!
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9. zergon
"What the nationalists don't tell you is that UK public services spend more than they receive in taxes . This can happen because London pays more in taxes than it spends in services. "
Yes, the UK does.
Scotland does not. Read the GERS. (I know you can read if you can type that post, as ignorant as it was)
The UK does NOT pay more in taxes than it spends in services or the UK would not be up to its eyebrows in a deficit.
Scotland subsidizes the UK, not the other way around in spite of the constant whingeing and whining of the English (and some BritScots). If you stop swallowing the lies whole or just mindlessly mouthing the lies of the government and do some reading, it might actually open your eyes.
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9. zergon
"This can happen because London pays more in taxes than it spends in services. In other words London subsidises Scotland. No London means less money ( or more taxes ). And no BBC means no BBC arts subsidy."
Can you show the links to justify your outrageous assertions or are red herrings all you have to show.
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#4
Not sure about the health link and managing a government. Might be a good thing actually if the quantities of obese people and violent drunks that are more populous in Scotland than practically anywhere else in the Western World had to move themselves. But the biggest problem seems to be getting anyone to do anything about the drunks in this nation of 'responsible' drinkers.
'Wha's like us'? Thankfully not many live long enough to tell the tale after a right good swally, a bottle attack (keeping the blade for any afters), a vindaloo and a kick at the dog to polish off a right good night in Dundee.
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19. BWN47
"Of course, secession can be a two-way issue. The Confederated States of USA wanted to secede but the Union didn't agree and stopped it. So, perhaps we should invite English voters to express a view as to whether we want to continue to subsisise a bunch of ingrates."
And WHAT, pray tell, is it you are saying Scotland should be grateful for?
You are right about one thing. The federal government used armed force to stop the succession of the southern states. Is yet another civil war (you have quite a history of them) what you want in your country? (As an American, I say it was wrong and our country would have been better off not so large that we could follow the British example and become world-wide bullies)
Maybe you should try treating the Scots with RESPECT for a change instead of telling them they should be GRATEFUL for being in your bankrupt union.
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4. cm
"I understand that the people of Scotland are not as healthy as the other 3 countries within the union, add this to the small population (5 million plus), how would Scotland manage independence. The Scottish people are a proud race of people and would pull together, but I fear the odds may be stacked against them if my facts are correct."
Facts need peer reviews to assess there validity can you show any or is it just media recycling as your source.
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19. BWN47
"Once we step back from the cheap nationalsm of Braveheart "
Let's step back from the cheap tactic of bringing up a twenty-year old movie made by an Australian which had no historic accuracy and look at nationalism.
You look pretty much like a British nationalist. Is your nationalism cheap? If not, why is the nationalism (definition: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it) cheap?
Yours is brave and noble but if one is a Scot it is cheap...
Nice.
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"Don't frighten the voters!"
You're right, Mr. Taylor. The BBC wouldn't want to frighten the voters by giving equal coverage to ALL of the major parties in Scotland, now would they?
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12. Wessexman
"Oil was as usual financed from top to bottom by England"
Says all it needs to about your knowledge about anything, zilch. Must be nice living in fairyland without a care in the World.
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17. Boxer_the_Horse
Scotland would not need a huge armed forces, if independent,but the Scottish Armed forces would be in huge demand for peace keeping efforts, as it has been in demand and been pivotal in winning all of the main battles in history,
Balaclava, Trafalgar, , In WW1 and WW11 Scotland's regiments gave more per capita than any other nation, so much so after WW1 whole villages were empty of menfolk killed in France.
At the moment the MOD buys equipment from many countries , the USA, France, Germany, so why would it be such a stretch that they would suddenly stop buying from Scotland, who have the skills to build some of the items.
In fact given that David Cameron announced he wants to still be best invasion buddies with the US, then the sooner Scotland becomes independent the better as we can make a fortune from England trying to relive its Empire building days.
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BWN47:
#19.
"The per capita allocation under the Barnett formula means that the Scottish government can indulge in free prescriptions and higher education which we in England cannot."
The same formula that sees London receive a higher level of spending that Scotland? You miss that out, I wonder why!
"Yet, there is remarkably little resentment in England, probably due to ignorance, of this feather bedding treatment."
Yes and if your anything to go by it would seem that people do not understand numbers! England does not receive money nationally like Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but regionally. This had led to London receiving more money then Scotland and Wales whilst the rest of England suffers.
"Even though NE England is as deserving of subsidies. However I now feel an increasing resentment at the comments of the SNP - but we should remember that they are a minority."
The issue of independence does not exist only in the SNP. It reaches people from all walks of life. However, you must have misunderstood the comments of the SNP because they want full fiscal autonomy (or independence) that would balance the fairness apparently.
I do not see the unionist trio campaign on changing the status quo, do you?
"Once we step back from the cheap nationalsm of Braveheart and the "I support anyone England is playing" (inferiority complex?) - we find that most thinking Scots realise that Scotland is stronger and safer within the UK envelope."
Okay. You insult the nationalists and generalize that all nationalists support 'anyone but England' and your suprised we do not normally se eye-to-eye on issues? Yes of course Scotland is stronger and safer in the UK, but wait a minute. Didn't we loose a dozen banks and hundreds of billions of pounds because the UK regulations failed on regulating the system?
Didn't two terrorists try blow themselves up at an airport because of UK foreign policies?
"Things have gone a bit quiet on the "let's emulate Iceland and the Irish Celtic Tiger" front of late. Scotland could not have bailed out RBS."
You've not mentioned Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland... etc Scotland may not have followed policies that would lead to a financial chaos. How many banks have the above four contries I named lost?
"Of course, secession can be a two-way issue. The Confederated States of USA wanted to secede but the Union didn't agree and stopped it. So, perhaps we should invite English voters to express a view as to whether we want to continue to subsisise a bunch of ingrates."
How ridiculous! Your a British Nationalist! Scotland and England were seperate countries upon signing the treaty to form Great Britain. It only takes one partner to break that treaty, unless you want to force your will onto the minority?
How would that look on the worldstage! It would make great history!
That final comment says alot more about what type of person you are then it does about anyone living in Scotland.
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17. Boxer_the_Horse
"Why, if Scotland were as independent within the EEC as Latvia, does anyone think an English government would have ships built at Rosyth? Why would an English government recruit Scottish soldiers? Could a Scottish government afford to pay the current number of Scottish soldiers, even if it wanted to? Mr Ennis says Scotland can't afford the Union. Could it afford real independence?"
Why does anyone have ships built in Korea?
Are you volunteering to take their place?
Does the SG need them all?
Can't afford to be drained of its resources anymore thank you.
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#12 Wessexman
You provide NOTHING MONEY wise it is all take take take !
An abbreviated A-Z of Scottish inventions and discoveries
■ Anaesthetics
■ Antiseptics
■ Beta-blockers
■ Bicycles
■ Cash credit
■ Colour photography
■ Computer games
■ Cotton-reel threads
■ Continuous electric light
■ Criminal finger-printing
■ Decimal points
■ Fax machines
■ Financial services by telephone
■ Fountain pens
■ Golf
■ Electro-magnetism
■ Hollow pipe drainage
■ Hypodermic syringes
■ Insulin
■ Kaleidoscopes
■ Lime cordial
■ Lawnmowers
■ Marmalade
■ Motor insurance
■ Microwave ovens
■ Noble gases
■ Paraffin
■ Penicillin
■ Postage stamps
■ Quinine
■ Radar
■ Reflecting telescopes
■ Retail banking
■ Savings banks
■ Tarmac
■ Telephones
■ Television
■ Ultrasound scanners
■ Universal standard time
■ Vacuum flasks
■ Waterproof mackintoshes
■ Wave-powered electricity generators
Many of the above are beyond pricing, some have significantly benefited mankind globally.
Not bad for a wee Country that is to poor, to thick and full of whingers and scroungers!
By the way it was a Scotsman who was credited with setting up the Bank of England.
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19. BWN47
"we find that most thinking Scots realise that Scotland is stronger and safer within the UK envelope."
How do you come to that opinionated statement?
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#27
Plenty of good and academically credible comparative evidence around. Go and visit the NHS Health Scotland site because with the profileration of evidence that we currently have on health in Scotland (over time) it makes grim reading in terms of our enduring chemical dependence (including alcohol) and diet.
#12
Who is 'We'? Not sure you are representing anyone but your own nonsense. Don't encourage the Nats.
#14
This is the greatest acheivement of Scotland. The ability to welcome and adopt others
-----------------
Simmer down! Remind me when were the Catholics (the 'Irish Menace') welcomed?
#15
Yes the Quebec 'Neverendums'!
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There seems to be a frightening level of common sense being displayed by the SNP.
Certainly compared to other UK parties.
There must be a big shortage of people from Oxford or Cambridge within the SNP hierarchy.
Which would also explain the media hostility.
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Boxer_the_Horse:
#17.
"Why, if Scotland were as independent within the EEC as Latvia, does anyone think an English government would have ships built at Rosyth? Why would an English government recruit Scottish soldiers? Could a Scottish government afford to pay the current number of Scottish soldiers, even if it wanted to? Mr Ennis says Scotland can't afford the Union. Could it afford real independence?"
It may do. If Scotland remains competative, why not? Let's look for other examples. Germany provides the UK with wind turbines. There is no reason as to why that should be considering we are capable of building our own but it happens.
Why would the English government NOT recruit Scottish soldiers? The British Gov currently recruits from the Commonwealth and even the Republic of Ireland of all places! I am not certain about the future policies of the English Gov but I see no reasons as to why Scots would be treated differently.
I can also not predict the future policies of an independent Scotland. Scotland may increase or reduce the size of the military. The current soldiers may seek to remain in the British military so we could recruit from scratch (maybe better in the long-term).
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36. Rob04
"Simmer down! Remind me when were the Catholics (the 'Irish Menace') welcomed?
"
Pretty often it looks to me like when I visit Scotland. I run into lots of Catholics there. They have yet to tell me they were lacking in freedom to worship as they please, nor the Islamics, nor the many other people. They even treat this American pretty well in spite of the way some of our politicians have behaved recently not to mention encouraging Westminster to drag you into wars.
Nice people, the Scots. You might try emulating them.
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36. Rob04
"#15
Yes the Quebec 'Neverendums'!
"
Imagine the stupidity of the Canadians actually asking the people what they want.
I hardly think you Brits are going to follow THAT example.
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Rob04:
#36.
"Simmer down! Remind me when were the Catholics (the 'Irish Menace') welcomed?"
How dreadful! How can you nitpick out of our history? I did not say it was all perfect. However overall Scots have made a huge inpact on the world in a very positive light.
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10. A Voter
"Here is an instant saving of at least £9 million pounds."
Are you genuinely daft enough to imagine this would represent a net saving?
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12. Wessexman
A testimony to England's education system.
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13. uk_abz_scot
"Was there any minimum price for alcohol at the SNP conference?
"
There is a bar in Perth Concert Hall. But, supposing minimum pricing had been introduced, prices at this bar would not have been affected. As you would realise if you had a clue what you were talking about.
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Electric Hermit:
#43.
It's not that bad if you make it to A-levels.
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17. Boxer_the_Horse
"Why, if Scotland were as independent within the EEC as Latvia..."
The EEC ceased to exist some years ago. Try to keep up.
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19. BWN47
"o, perhaps we should invite English voters to express a view as to whether we want to continue to subsisise a bunch of ingrates."
I think your rancid rant amply illustrates what we are supposed to be grateful for.
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With regard to frankly francophone's comments on independence for Quebec,
the one thing which stops the Quebecois in their tracks is, if Quebec leaves Canada, the English speaking areas will leave Quebec.
A similar situation will arise if Scotland leaves the UK, Shetland & Orkney
will undoubtedly leave Scotland, there could also be a split between the Gaelic Northwest and the Sassenach South etc. etc.
Secession from a unitary state is always a messy business, so why break up a winning team which is now over 300 years old.
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48. BillyF
"A similar situation will arise if Scotland leaves the UK, Shetland & Orkney
will undoubtedly leave Scotland..."
Well I doubt it. So it's obviously not as undoubted as you imagine.
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BillyF:
#48.
The scaremongering is back! There is no evidence to support that Scotland would break apart if independence comes-by.
Scotland as a nation will come together and decide together the course she will chart. In fact, we see today Scots living day-to-day without the need for violence. Why would we suddenly change our tune if we get our independence?
Do you only value democracy if it is in your favour?
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We'd get butchered in the EU, the euro is a honeytrap.
I was in The Republic of Ireland a year or so ago and the price of food is simply ASTRONOMICAL.
Lidl goods are around 100% more expensive in the eurozone, the euro is an inflationary nightmare.
Ireland is also a highly agricultural society, THEY SHOULD BE PRODUCING FOOD FOR BUTTONS.
But the EU is a regulatory and rules obsessed nightmare, and the eurozone food prices reflect this madness, europe is a gigantic bureaucracy which is out of control.
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It is so interesting to note that almost all of the unionist based posts on here today are all so completely devoid of any substantive or reasoned argument. Its all just been a blast of tired old repetitive uneducated anti Scottish rhetoric. This may have worked up until four years ago but the average Scottish voter these days is simply much more sophisticated than the wee timid cowerin Britscot's, or the English establishment, right wing press, BBC, and BBC chat show pundits gives us credit for. Unless the unionists come up with something other than the too wee, too poor, too lazy, too unfit, too stupid arguments no one will take them seriously. I feel so much that independence is so within our grasp, it is up to us to get out their tell our friends, work-mates, strangers face book contacts, everyone that Scotland WILL work on its own.
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51. ady
"I was in The Republic of Ireland a year or so ago and the price of food is simply ASTRONOMICAL."
In what way since their GDP is about 50% higher than the UK or is it more than 50% dearer.
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If Scotland joined the euro the weekly food bill would be like it was during the 1970s, consuming a huge chunk of the household budget.
I had three years on banana sandwiches...let's not go back there...it's a bad place to be when you're poor.
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48. At 8:51pm on 16 Oct 2010, BillyF wrote:
Secession from a unitary state is always a messy business, so why break up a winning team which is now over 300 years old.
=========================================================================
Winning team? Winning at what exactly? For your information, the "team" is losing on every front. The UK means, above all, long term relative economic decline, and by long term I mean about 150 years worth.
The mess from breaking up the UK will end up in England's lap, exactly where it belongs. Best of luck once Cornwall, Wessex and Yorkshire decide your "winning team" is in fact just a bunch of losers. And don't count on Cumbria and Geordieland staying onside either. They might at some stage conclude that they have more in common with Scotland than with a poisonous cocktail of aristos, city gents, ex-public schoolboys and cockney barrow boys.
So far as Scotland is concerned, the English can continue trying to invade and colonize the rest of the world to show everyone what big hairy chested heroes they are, but just leave us out of it,thanks, and enjoy your winning ways without us.
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48, Billy F:
"Secession from a unitary state is always a messy business, so why break up a winning team which is now over 300 years old."
UK is not a unitary state it is a union of two states by treaty. Either state can end that treaty at any time.
In what way is UK a winning team? What benefit does Scotland get out of it that we could not have for ourselves as an independent nation?
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#22 patchbruce
Wessexman
Boxer_the_Horse
BWN47
Aye Patchbruce, interesting, three one hit wonders in one night.
Guess we will have to pin their handles on a dartboard to select which one is ReluctantScot! Or maybe he is all three given the deseration he has exhibited in his recent bout of spamming.
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48. BillyF
"Secession from a unitary state is always a messy business, so why break up a winning team which is now over 300 years old."
Hahaha! Winning team. That's why the UK is so far into deficit.
As for a nation regaining its independence being messy, you might want to prove that because I can come up with plenty of examples otherwise.
The "Velvet Revolution" wasn't "messy" when the country peacefully split into the independent Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Nothing "messy" when Iceland gained self-rule. The only thing "messy" in Ireland was caused by the Brits. In 1917, Finland gained its independence from Russia and the only thing messy was being caught between two major warring powers. (So major powers are messy--maybe we should get rid of the rest of them) Norway gained independence from Sweden in 1905 and as usual the messy part was invasion from a major power. (Are we seeing a theme here?) In 1979, Greenland gained home rule from Denmark (the main messy part having been the WWII occupation by another "major power"--more of a theme?)
The point is that ALL peoples have a right to self-determination. That right to self-determination includes the Scots.
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Oh! For God Sake I wish Scotland was independent! JUST END THE BARNET FORMULA THATS ALL!! THE SOONER ITS INDEPENDENT, THE BETTER! NOT ONE MORE PENNY FROM ENGLAND AND WALES. Honestly! Just think how small earth is in the galexy let alone the universe...how sad people really are...
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4. cm
"I understand that the people of Scotland are not as healthy as the other 3 countries within the union, add this to the small population (5 million plus), how would Scotland manage independence. The Scottish people are a proud race of people and would pull together, but I fear the odds may be stacked against them if my facts are correct."
Oh dear are we all too poor and sick? Oh no do we need other countries to help us out in our sick state? Oh I think I'm begining to feel sick!
Ok Random country Montenegro population 650,000 broke away from union with Serbia a dominating controlling partner. They are still going strong and have not begged to rejoin in union. They are they latest of many small, free independent nations in Europe. Mind you maybe they are not as sick and ill and fragile as Scotland you moron.
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It's interesting to note all the new unionist comments from people outside Scotland!
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57. Roll_On_2011
"Aye Patchbruce, interesting, three one hit wonders in one night.
"
Make that four one-hit wonders when you include SalfordSuperboy.
Someone is indeed desperate today. ;-)
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45. Tom
Electric Hermit:
#43.
It's not that bad if you make it to A-levels.
Aren't A-Levels an English exam?
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51. ady
"I was in The Republic of Ireland a year or so ago and the price of food is simply ASTRONOMICAL."
But how do costs compare as a percentage of total consumption. Try that calculation and you find that Ireland has among the lowest food prices in the EU.
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48. Billy Fibber is obviously from London Town.
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xmas 2008.
A mass exodus of cash across the border, because you can buy loads more at UK stores.
Tills ring out in Enniskillen as cross-border trade soars
ASDA Enniskillen is the second highest performing store in the supermarket's UK-wide group this week, and is the sixth top performing store in Wal-Mart's global empire.
http://www.fermanaghtoday.co.uk/fermanaghnews/Tills-ring-out-in-Enniskillen.4796388.jp
Things apparently have eased off a bit since a year or two ago, the main reason was the massive level of cross-border trade from south to north, plus they can't put up border controls between the South&North of Ireland...it's too politically sensitive and would restart the war.
The Euro is not really a magic place, it has a poison pill called inflation.
Visit the place for a week. It's great!
Just take plenty of cash because the price of things is eye watering.
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52. patchbruce
"It is so interesting to note that almost all of the unionist based posts on here today are all so completely devoid of any substantive or reasoned argument."
I note a sudden flurry of unionist scaremongering in the past few hours. Much of it strangely dated.
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54. ady
"If Scotland joined the euro the weekly food bill would be like it was during the 1970s..."
You state this as if it was proven fact rather than just the same tired old unionist scaremongering that we've been hearing for decades.
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--But how do costs compare as a percentage of total consumption.--
lol
They're too high, and the Irish are being ripped off bigtime.
Step across the border from the eurozone into the UK and the same pizza at Lidl is literally 50% cheaper.
Ripped off. (capiche?...screwed...No calculator required.)
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--You state this as if it was proven fact rather than just the same tired old unionist scaremongering that we've been hearing for decades.--
...a unionist who votes SNP...
At least I know what we're in for if we do go into europe.
Visit Ireland, see for yourself.
No army, no navy and no airforce saves a bucketful of cash.
Don't think that you're wishing for a magic place, magic it aint.
You swap a bunch of morons in London for a bunch of morons in Brussels.
BTW, the Council Tax charge is zero in the Republic, but I bet you knew that too huh.
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66. ady
"xmas 2008.
A mass exodus of cash across the border, because you can buy loads more at UK stores."
Yep a two-year-old article proves a lot. That the best you can do?
Of course, whether an independent Scotland would join the Euro would be up to the Scots, but you need better scaremongering than that.
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I'm a little out of date on this but no doubt someone will correct me if I'm too far off track.
My understanding is that the situation in Quebec is complicated by the fact that a significant part of it outside of the cities is occupied by Native Canadians and their status is protected and governed by federal law irrespective of the status of Quebec itself. It is not, therefore, a straight anglophone/francophone independence issue even though this is the way it is generally portrayed (by anglophones and francophones -the Native Canadian voices are, shall we say, under-reported outside of Canada)
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Vakov2000:
#63.
"Aren't A-Levels an English exam?"
Yes, similar to a Scottish Adv Higher apparently.
Ady:
To see the real deal we would have to see prices all over the Eurozone. I knew the Republic of Ireland was expensive before the problems came. However, I would point out that we, at least for the moment, currently have London and Brussels. It is not a matter of swapping but picking one out of two.
The matter of the Euro is up for debate and will not come with independence. The question will be asked later about the currency.
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I travelled on a French Train Grande Vitesse (TGV) a few years ago. The train travelled at 300kph (they can go up to 500kph but there's a wee shoogle so they stick at 300), that's ~190mph in our money :-) I travelled first class in a chair that resembled a Parker-Knoll recliner. I travelled the equivalent of Aberdeen - Edinburgh in a third of the time and for the same price (at the then conversion rate) as a second class ticket in the UK. If you want to travel to Scotland in a high speed train you won't arrive until 2025 at the latest estimate and it won't ever do 190mph.
I was in Poland recently where the food was fabulous and incredibly cheap. In fact I have travelled quite widely round Europe over many years and found generally high standards of public transport, infrastructure and quality of life in most countries, often far exceeding what we have in the UK.
So why all the scaremongering about Scotland in the Euro zone when Scotland in the Sterling zone is facing a decade of massive cuts with no control over our income and resources?
Anyway, a Scottish government would be free to choose whether it entered the Euro or not. Backed by our oil, water and mineral resources, we would have one of the hardest currencies in Europe on our own.
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ady are you "Biffo the Clown"?
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Ady is a liar and not from Ireland ask him to reference his facts. He is one of the Cowpat mob.
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"magic it aint"
Isn't that how they speak down London way?
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--Of course, whether an independent Scotland would join the Euro would be up to the Scots, but you need better scaremongering than that.--
Then we'll need our own currency.
Not been much talk about that though, everyone assumes that the euro is a beautiful sunny place with lambs skipping about in the sunshine.
--whether an independent Scotland would join the Euro would be up to the Scots--
Plus you make assumptions, London has yet to even allow the BRITISH people a vote on entering Europe and permitting European domination of British affairs.
Which technically means European law has never been ratified by the British people...and is void.
A bunch of quislings in London, (or Edinburgh for that matter) signing us over without a vote is not what I'm looking for.
The Swiss have a good system, it's called a PROPER democracy.
We currently have a form of kleptocracy, voted in every six years.
Sooo. Lots to sort out and loads to do.
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19. BWN47
"Salmond & the SNP have an easy ride - they claim the credit for all that goes well and blame the UK (Westminster) Government for any problems.
The per capita allocation under the Barnett formula means that the Scottish government can indulge in free prescriptions and higher education which we in England cannot. Yet, there is remarkably little resentment in England, probably due to ignorance, of this feather bedding treatment. "
The formula is named after Joel Barnett who devised it in the late 1970s, while Chief Secretary to the Treasury, as a way of allocating additional or reduced finance based on population (and not need), as a short-term solution (in the run up to the planned devolution in 1979) to minor Cabinet disputes.
Thereafter, it has been retained by Conservative Governments of 1979 to 1997 under Prime Ministers Margaret Thatcher and John Major, and by Labour Governments since 1997 under Prime Ministers Tony Blair and his successor Gordon Brown, with the Government declaring its intention to continue to use it as the basis for funding the 3 devolved governments.
Even its author JB has recently admitted that he wrote it on the back of an envelope.
Yet successive governments since its inception have retained it - Why?
Even under the ConDems the Barnett formula has been given a stay of execution.
“Under the coalition deal agreed by the Tories and Liberal Democrats, the Barnett formula will continue allocating taxpayers’ money to the regions of the United Kingdom.
No replacement will be considered until the black hole in the public finances has been dealt with, meaning Scots will continue to receive more money at the same time savage spending cuts and tax increases are implemented across the UK.”
There are solutions, full fiscal responsibility for Scotland or better still an independent Scotland.
Unfortunately the Red, Blue and Off Yellow Tories that govern the UK won’t let that happen. I will ask the question again - Why? Given that Scotland is alleged to be such a basket case and a drain on the English purse.
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Interesting the fact something's are moderated before others?
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all this fuss about Europe.
i have mulled this over for years,
We shouted independence within Europe a few years ago. But is this what Scotland needs
.
If we do not put up any trade barriers then no one will have an excuse to hit our exports.
Our main export is whisky and most of that goes out-with Europe. with the emerging Chinese and Indian markets the potential is huge also France will always continue to buy whisky.
in the case of engineering Scotland is up there with the best, demand for our engineers and scientists will always be in demand.
food We produce more than we eat.
I strongly feel that it might just be hugely beneficial for Scotland to initially remain outwith the EU after independence. for at least a wee while
Lets look at the benefits
Instant reduction in retail prices as VAT eliminated boosting manufacturing and retail sectors.
Community charge eliminated as a small fairer purchase tax is added to goods to pay for local services as in some states in the US
Business costs reduced resulting in increased numbers of companies coming north from England.
Fuel prices reduced
increased business with china and USA and India.
Its worth thinking about.
Yes some might suggest this might lead to trade barriers but if we maintain an open trade policy and openish borders i think it might work in the long run
.
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--Ady is a liar and not from Ireland ask him to reference his facts. He is one of the Cowpat mob.--
lol
Go on holiday there, it's a great place with great people.
Go for two weeks, a month, you can drive there.
Take a carton of smokes if you go, they were 9 quid a pack for the decent ones the last time I was there and the cheapo 7.50 ones would choke a donkey.
4.50 a pint too. Slàinte!
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69. ady
"Ripped off. (capiche?...screwed...No calculator required.)"
I doubt that you would know how to use a calculator anyway. A simple price comparison tells you nothing. But it does have the advantage of leaving you free to imagine that it is telling you exactly what you want it to tell you. You see, price is but one factor in the calculation of affordability. Food in country A may be double the price of food in country B, but if incomes in country A are also double incomes in country B then food is equally affordable in both countries.
A meaningful measure would be the percentage of average household income spent on food. This would allow a direct and informative comparison. When you have such figures please come back and hope to be taken seriously. In the meantime, take a look at the following -
http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2010/07/european-food-prices-ireland-is-cheap.html
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9. At 9:30pm on 16 Oct 2010, SalfordSuperboy wrote:
----------------------
another suspicious "first time post" by someone who has no blog history, Is someone trying to goad us in to anti English sentiment so that they can burst back on line to accuse us all of English hating.
sorry whoever you might be, we see right through you , its not the English we hate but the Act of union.
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70. ady
"BTW, the Council Tax charge is zero in the Republic, but I bet you knew that too huh."
When was Council Tax introduced in the Republic?
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"Take a carton of smokes if you go."
What? That's how Yanks speak!
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78. ady
Just another ill-informed Europhobe rant.
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81. patchbruce
"Our main export is whisky and most of that goes out-with Europe."
Our main export is not whisky. Export earnings of whisky are massively outstripped by financial and business services as well as chemicals and chemical products.
And seven of the top ten export destinations for Scotland's goods and services are within the EU with export to those seven alone worth about four times the value of exports to the USA.
Your conclusions are based on false assumptions.
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82. ady
"Take a carton of smokes if you go, they were 9 quid a pack..."
Cigarette prices in RoI are currently around 8 euros - or about £7 per pack.
The average price of a pint of lager is £3.81.
All of this information is freely available. Ever heard of Google? (Other search engines are available.)
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72. Diddly Dum
The largest First Nation (to use Canadian terminology) in Quebec are the Cree, whose traditional territory covers much of northern Quebec. In 2002 the Cree Nation in Quebec signed an agreement with the Quebec government (led by the nationalist Parti Québécois) called the "Agreement Respecting a New Relationship Between the Cree Nation and the Government of Quebec". The treaty guarantees the right of Cree communities to a large measure of political autonomy, and also guarantees their rights to the mineral wealth that lies beneath their land.
The preamble of the treaty recognised the status of both Quebec and the Cree as nations. After signing the treaty, Ted Moses, the Grand Chief of the Crees, said "Quebec becomes a leader in the application of the principles recognized by the United Nations in regards of aboriginal development. Quebec will be able to show that the respect of aboriginals is compatible with her national interest. The federal government should inspire itself with this agreement in its negotiations with Natives across Canada." (ref. Wikipedia)
The Canadian authorities have recognised the national sovereignty of aboriginal peoples, and guaranteed their rights to the mineral wealth of their territories. The former Canadian North West Territory was divided into two, and the overwhelmingly Inuit eastern region is now an autonomous territory of Canada called Nunavut. 35,000 Canadian Inuit have a greater degree of self-government and more control of their own natural wealth than Scots do. In the former Danish colony across the Davis Strait from Nunavut, the 55,000 Inuit of Greenland are now a fully independent kingdom within the Danish realm.
For those who have mentioned the small size of the Scottish population and our appalling health statistics, it should be pointed out that Greenland and Canadian Arctic communities have worse rates of alcohol, drug and solvent abuse than Scotland. They have an epidemic of diabetes and obesity, and health statistics that make the West of Scotland seem like it's populated with lettuce-munchers who're never out the gym.
So there are a lot fewer of them, they're very bit as drink and drug raddled as we are, they're in worse health than we are, yet somehow the Inuit and the Cree are capable of full autonomy or independence and control of their own mineral and oil rights and we aren't...
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An interesting thread.
I agree with patchbruce that the individual pretending to be lots of different English people who are all anti-Scottish (what a puerile tactic) is trying to provoke anti-English responses, because this person is actually so ignorant, bigoted (and perhaps with an IQ somewhere between 80 and 100) that s/he/it has been persuaded that Nats are somehow anti-others instead of being pro-Scots.
As to Brian's post, however, the SNP have developed an interesting strategy. Thus far, the announcements have been treated as if they were unrelated, but look at the detail -
Health (which Brian comments on) http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2010/10/15162743
Education - http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2010/10/14145207
Efficiency - http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2010/10/15114553
The SNP produces efficient government, that looks for systems that don't need excessive senior management, and prioritises services to people and those who deliver them.
Sounds good to me.
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91. InfrequentAllele2
But health campaigns do seem to work in the longer term.
Scots 7 year olds are now the most physically active and the least obese in the UK.
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It's widely accepted that cutting public sector pay, by whatever roundabout means, is meant to be an election-friendly way of saving money - it's not like no-one has suggested it before. However, given the proportion of the workforce made up by the public sector in Scotland, I wonder if the SNP can afford to rely on this quite as much as Brian Taylor suggests.
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86. Vakov2000
""Take a carton of smokes if you go."
What? That's how Yanks speak!"
I BEG your pardon. I do not. =-)
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95. afross
Agreed that it's not a unique solution - with common problems to other countries, it would be surprising if anyone came up with a radical new solution that solved all the problems, with no pain to anyone!
However, the experience in the private sector during the recession was that employees seemed to favour pay/freezes/cuts or even part time working rather than lose their jobs entirely.
While those unions with a political agenda (like the FDA - the top Civil Servants Union) may try to create problems, it may well be that public sector workers may respond in a similar way to the private sector.
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If the unions decide to launch another crusade against the taxpayer's at our most vunerable state then I sure do hope they suggest what can be cut instead of trying to bring down the government.
Self-interest - The Disease of Man
I could make a book out of the problems created because of the self-interests of man. Copyrighted, don't steal my idea.
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Yet again, a totally different response to quangos north and south of the Border.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/crime-courts/strathclyde-s-house-warns-that-disastrous-quango-bonfire-could-undermine-fight-against-crime-1.1061915
The UK agency “Security Industry Authority” is to be abolished, the net effect will be that Scotland will ensure that an equivalent Scottish body is created, and the common infrastructure of the UK decays even further and faster.
Go Coalition! :-)
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#98 Tom
'Self-interest - The Disease of Man'
Couldn't agree with you more.
Three times the Trades Unions destroyed my place of work and three times they just moved on to the next set of mugs and destroyed their places of work also.
The Unions leaders didn't give a d@mn as they were safe in their palatial mansions with their huge salaries and perks.
Tearing up my Union membership card was one of the most satisfying moments of my life.
Thankfully everyone I work alongside today feels the same. No Trades Unions determined to throw us on the scrapheap and for the first time in a long time I feel my job is relatively secure.
The sickos at the STUC are more concerned with marching in support of terrorist organisations than they are about protecting peoples jobs.
Dump them.
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Wow...
A veritable feast of 'new' contributors to BwB on show on this thread
Welcome, and may I add 'what a coincidence'...
More coincidental perhaps when one starts to analyse their strangely similar penchance for terrible grammar, shocking spelling and unsubstantiated nonsense...
How and ever...
Pray tell me, and other 'lurkers' like me, in simple terms please...
Why should this union continue?
If you answer in the affirmative can you please explain who benefits from the union and how?
Is it Scotland?
England?
London & SE?
I'd also suggest glancing back through the archives here, selecting any thread at random, and then perhaps you can also explain to me why one side of the debate/divide seems to be repeatedly backed up by evidence and sound argument, whilst the other side seems to be reduced to soundbites, untrue statements and contrite conjecture
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts...
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Tom writes the banking problems were all caused in London. But who were the banks that caused the biggest problems? Royal Bank of SCOTLAND for one and HBOS (i.e Halifax and the Bank of SCOTLAND) the other. Nuff said.
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@91. InfrequentAllele2:
Thanks, although with due respect to Wikipedia I think that federal law would trump a treaty with a provincial government if push came to shove, or at least it is a useful fallback.
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#102 Sandy
Welcome to BWB. having looked at other posts you have made on various BBC sites obver the last few weeks, I think you are probably just on the wind up, If I may quote things that you have posted over the last few weeks.
"It is however even more true that most of those assets are in the hands of international businesses of which many British people have an interest, either through shares, or more likely pensions and insurance. In addition many 'British' companies like BP are really international companies"
"The rampant greed of the west (bankers, governments and consumers alike) has been our undoing. We have mountains of debt and until this debt is firmly reduced and we are more in balance with Asian economies, the global crisis will continue."
"....how come Switzerland and Norway are doing so much better than the UK and most other western economies?"
"Yet again another piece calling banks reckless while totally ignoring the recklessness of governments, like those in the USA, Britain, Ireland etc,"
Lastly Bank of Scotland was actually called Halifax Bank of Scotland (HBOS) and is a UK Bank as is RBS, I could point out that they are UK banks when doing well and contributing billions to the economy but become "scottish" when they get into trouble
By all means join the discussion but I think you are better informed than your post here would suggest.
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Welcome newbies , and I do hope you are non Scots.
Having spent most of my life attempting the education of the young,I would be horrified to think that you were products of a Scottish education.
I will pose the question that others have posed,
If the Scots are the sickest , drunkest ,stupidest scroungers portrayed in the media,WHY is Westminster so determined to hang on to us?
Could it be that they wish to continue asset stripping this small country?
Oil? Whisky revenue?Cannon fodder?
And ,most important of all, water?
And please don't respond with the usual drivelling " United we stand , divided we fall"
Take a look around you - " Great Britain" has well and truly fallen already,trailing around behind the USA as it bullies and destroys the people of oil rich nations.
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89. At 11:02pm on 16 Oct 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
re Europe
Dear E.H. please don't take me wrong. I am in absolutely no way anti European. I enjoy the freedom of movement and trade it offers. I am just exploring ways of making our domestic economy more vibrant initially. To put it another way, Mr Swinney has just provided an excellent quote that, "Scotland can not afford the union". I'm just asking can we afford to continue membership of an even bigger club, with a bigger membership fee. Remember, despite what unionists want us to believe, we are an affluent country, As such our membership of the EU, might be expensive.
In any case, the important thing is independence and I would happily support either stance, but i feel I have to ask the question.
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What a pity Scotland wasn't fully independent before the banking crisis. Had that been so, Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland would have just bankrupt Scotland instead of dragging down the whole of the UK's economy. Scotland could then have joined the other basket-case economies like Greece, Iceland and Eire and would no longer qualify for massive subsidies from the English taxpayer.
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07. At 10:31am on 17 Oct 2010, VictorAngryMan wrote:
Whatever man, whatever, if it calms your soul to believe such rubbish you think whatever you like. If you go and check your facts however, Scotland subsidises the UK government to the tune of £1.3 billion p.a.
The best way for you to get rid of us is to write to your MP insisting he introduce a bill to get rid of the act of union, we would all be right behind you !
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I watched the Andrew Marr show this morning and as it is party conference season and he interviews the leaders, today was Alex Salmond's turn. Of course this being the BBC, there was no interview, just a union biased attempt to restrict our options to Labour or Tory economic policy.
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102. sandy winder
"Tom writes the banking problems were all caused in London. But who were the banks that caused the biggest problems? Royal Bank of SCOTLAND for one and HBOS (i.e Halifax and the Bank of SCOTLAND) the other. Nuff said."
North Korea is officially called the DEMOCRATIC People's Republic of Korea. By your facile logic this means it must be a democracy.
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Re my removed post no 110
Dear moderators i feel given the racist tone of 'vctorangrymans' post i feel i was perfectly right to question his views which appear racist. if anything it should have been his possibly racist post that was removed, but of course I'm Scottish, we obviously don't matter to the BBC
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106. patchbruce
"I'm just asking can we afford to continue membership of an even bigger club, with a bigger membership fee. Remember, despite what unionists want us to believe, we are an affluent country, As such our membership of the EU, might be expensive."
Answering this question would require reliable information about the cost of not being an EU member in order that a comparison might be made. This is where the Europhobes always fall down. They are very good at trumpeting the cost of membership. But they fall strangely silent when asked what would be the cost of leaving the EU. They will point to Norway as an example of a European country that is doing rather well outside the EU. What they will not tell you is that Norway is obliged to pay approximately £250million a year into EU coffers and has to abide by most EU regulations without having any say in formulating those rules.
Norway is a non-member. Scotland, under the circumstances you envisage, would be in an entirely different position. Scotland would be an ex-member. As such it would be naive to suppose that the EU would not impose at least mildly punitive terms if for no other reason than pour décourager les autres. And there is no point in arguing that the EU needs us more than we need it. This is politics. And politics has its own priorities. Priorities which are not necessarily informed by unalloyed rationality.
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107. VictorAngryMan
Yet another token of the unionist cabal's fear and desperation.
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It's interesting to understand the priorities of the BBC.
The Lib-Dem, Labour and Tory conferences all got massive coverage on TV on the news programs and they were broadcast live and available in every home in Scotland. The SNP gets almost nothing.
However on Channel 301, Freeview, the BBC have been broadcasting an endless loop of a concert by the pop band, "Mumford and Sons", for the entire previous week and right across this weekend of the SNP conference.
In simple terms an endless loop of a pop-band is more broadcast worthy to the BBC than the SNP conference. Check it out yourselves. Channel 301.
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107. At 10:31am on 17 Oct 2010, VictorAngryMan wrote:
What a pity Scotland wasn't fully independent before the banking crisis
Victor, old friend, old mate, I agree, but dont winge man. If
your in Scotland support the SNP or write to your own party
advocating independence, if your in England, Wales or NI write to
your MP NOW and demand that they force the Scots to leave the Union
and save you all your hard earned cash.
I know your the Action Man type from the force of you post, the
strength of your convictions and not some namby pamby drive by
blogger, you'll see it through, Good Luck.
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#39
Pretty often it looks to me like when I visit Scotland. I run into lots of Catholics there. They have yet to tell me they were lacking in freedom to worship as they please, nor the Islamics, nor the many other people. They even treat this American pretty well in spite of the way some of our politicians have behaved recently not to mention encouraging Westminster to drag you into wars.
Nice people, the Scots. You might try emulating them.
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Its about Sectarianism and the proactive exclusion of Catholics from the labour market, housing and higher education sectors that has being going on now for over century and a half. Mainly attitudinal now it would surprise you where it continues to crop up.
Why do you know so little of this country's history?
I am Scottish and your comment is just offensive, ignorant and laughable. The home buddies were probably all looking at your comment not wanting to go there at all! And for the very good reason that they know sectarianism and their history to be true!
#40
Asking again and again and again..till they make up their mind? The 'neverendum' was a phrase used by Michael Ignatieff as you will know anyway.
#41
How dreadful! How can you nitpick out of our history? I did not say it was all perfect. However overall Scots have made a huge inpact on the world in a very positive light.
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'Nitpick'? I knowe its probably been a 'small' thing for you but a history of excluding people from labour markets, housing, higher education on the basis of what god they followed and where they were from does deserve exposure to a wider and a public audience. 'A man's a man for a' that' and 'Jock Tamson's Bairns' are just wee myths invented to kae you feel better about yourself.
If you want to make daft statements about how 'welcoming' you are, try and face up to your history. It can be a bit of a long stretch for those living through it rather than historians commenting on great swathes of time. What next, 'nitpicking' as part of geological time!?
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Sitting watching the Politics Show waiting for the Scottish part to come on. We've just had 10 minutes or so on Free Schools, an English pre-occupation as they continue to ignore the elephant of class discrimination on which their education system is founded. But not relevant to me, so why spend time on it on BBC Scotland? On the other hand, 10 minutes less of Gary Robertson and biased Pravda-style reporting...
Oh, just in: Murray beats Federer 6-3, 6-2 !
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118. G P Walrus
"And for the very good reason that they know sectarianism and their history to be true! "
We all know that Scotland is not perfect. Declining to focus obsessively on the negatives is not to deny them.
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12. At 6:36pm on 16 Oct 2010, Wessexman wrote:
My Taylor
I have some news for you
We in England are fed up with hearing the continuing whinging and whine-ing , we want more Money we want we want we want more ! and what Scotland thinks and what Scotland says ! who cares
We in England never think about you and your whine-in-gs such a turn of the word scotland sorry but please go Independent please go your own way and take that susan boil with you ,lol
You provide NOTHING MONEY wise it is all take take take !
and the Oil was as usual financed from top to bottom by England
have your bloody oil ! and leave us alone ! LOL ! bye bye
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At least 1 Vote from down South for Scottish Independence, so just another 55 Million odd Votes to come.
It about time ALL you Whingers in England stop asking what Scotland is doing better in terms for its People, and just what it is that England lack's by demanding an English Parliament to look after your OWN interest.
This would then finally see the end of any Westminster Rule in Scotland with a full transfer of ALL Scottish Power to Holyrood, while at the same time a New English Government can do likewise in England by electing a NEW English Parliament.
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#114 Electric Hermit
"Yet another token of the unionist cabal's fear and desperation."
Aye EH, reading the posters profile (VictorAngryMan) it appears that he/she is a Blue Tory supporter of the tripartite London centric unionist brigade, probably hacked of with only getting 1 MP into Scotland last May.
I was also drawn to the following comment, on another blog, from his/her profile:
VictorAngryMan.
“RECIPE FOR RUINING ENGLAND:
Take 1 Scottish Prime Minister, 1 Scottish Chancellor, etc etc etc”
The commenter surely has a massive chip on his/her shoulder regarding Scotland. But what can you expect with decades of propaganda directed against Scotland by the English MSM playing to the basic instincts and fears of their customers.
To illustrate, I can clearly remember at the turn of Century, prior to setting off from England to take up contract work in Scotland, the English MSM headlining and equating Scotland’s economy with that of third world countries. Such steady drip drip reporting in England about Scotland has been relentless over decades, across a miryad of topical areas. So what can you expect?
It is unfortunate, that not only, English but Scottish voters cannot dig below the headlines and put the truth and what the MSM spout into a proper perspective.
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Just thought I would say how well and professionally I think John Swinney handled himself in questioning from yourself Brian. I thought it was an excellent and informative interview from both of you.
It angers me intensely when I hear Salmond go on the way he does, taking the credit for everything that's easy to do and taking no responsibility for everything that's difficult.
It's so so easy to play the 'blame westminster' game as many in the SNP have been doing recently. John Swinney however did not just do that. Instead he held a reasoned and honest interview in which he acknowledged the need for their to be cuts, fairly put forward his differing views on what the scale of those should be, and then held a serious discussion about the best way to progress forward.
There's nothing different about next year from the last really. A Scottish devloved administration has a fixed budget to spend as they see best to promote all of the sectors over which they have responsibility. Our primary concern as the electorate isn't how much money we have in the bank (realistically we can't change that) but rather how we're going to make the money we have meet the needs that we have. Salmond knows that it doesn't matter how much he complains it isn't going to change anything so he loses nothing from doing so. Swinney however took a much more grown up approach I believe and actually seems to be focusing on that which he actually has control over.
I hate debates about the economic viability of a future independent Scotland. The main reason for this isn't the ignorant nationalists claiming their idealistically hopeful scenarios but that we really have no idea what the outcome would be. An Independent Scotland would not be a decision for the next five years, but rather a decision for the next 500. It should be a debate about culture, society, levels of democracy and what level of influence/importance we should have in the world.
Under an Independent Scotland I don't prescribe to the view that we would have been unable to cope with the financial meltdown and bailing out the banks, but I do believe that we would have ended up in exactly the same situation if not worse, in having massive debts and deficit, to pay for it.
We need to get real and acknowledge that there isn't as much money to go around as there used to be.
The Scottish Government should be doing, and engaging the public in debates on, two things;
1. Working out the best way to use all of their resources to provide for all of our needs.
2. Accepting that the Scottish public do not want independence but striving and working for the most practical level of fiscal autonomy to best serve us, on a purely economic and not nationalistic (more is always good) philosophy.
John Swinney came across to me as being of that persuasion and so, whilst he will likely never have my vote, I commend him. Alex Salmond most definitely is not coming across as well.
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Interesting how the BBC cover the SNP conference.
A few journos and pundits, Brian, Douglas Fraser, John Curtice, Herald guy, posing around the conference venue or parts of Perth pretending informed comment but showing zero evidence of actually engaging with the delegates. Any interaction takes the form of sections of canned interviews, carefully surrounded by post-edited punditry.
Grudging, partial (in both senses) and limited coverage of our governing party's conference at a time when momentous spending decisions are to be made. A disgrace and a betrayal of the BBC charter..
Never mind "Don't Frighten the Voters". More like "Don't Inform the Voters"
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# 107. VictorAngryMan wrote:
What a pity Scotland wasn't fully independent before the banking crisis. Had that been so, Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland would have just bankrupt Scotland instead of dragging down the whole of the UK's economy.
If Scotland had been independent before the banking crisis then neither RBS nor the BoS would have been in anything like the same condition that the City of London, the FSA, the BoE and Labour's Treasury allowed them to get into.
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"2. Accepting that the Scottish public do not want independence but striving and working for the most practical level of fiscal autonomy to best serve us, on a purely economic and not nationalistic (more is always good) philosophy."
There is no way of making that assertion without a referendum.
Please discount the "silent majority" so beloved of the media and the BBBC in particular, and let the people speak in a referendum.
It is interesting is it not ,that Westminster is so willing to have an AV referendum ,another for Wales but utterly against the Scottish people having a referendum on Independence?
What possible reason could there be for that?
Could they be scared of losing the cash cow that kept this country afloat?
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Re the comments about sectarianism and bigotry. No-one is claiming that all Scots are wonderful human beings, but no society has a monopoly on negative people. I've even met some obnoxious Norwegians - although the drink might have had something to do with it.
I was, on two separate occasions, barred from pubs in London just because I was a "Jock" - and that's while I was living there, not during an international game. I recall a fair amount of bigoted views being expressed during my 10 years in the Big Smoke - mainly aimed at those citizens with darker complexions but generously and frequently expanded to include Scots, Irish, Welsh and even Geordies!
It's interesting to note that the primary perpetrators of bigotry in Scotland are often the most enthusiastic for the union and tend to dress up in funny outfits and march around to make the point.
I live in Glasgow - arguably the main hotbed for that sort of thing - and, being a part-time muso myself, tend to frequent music pubs. Lots of tourists come into these places for an evening's entertainment and are invariably made extremely welcome - by all sides of our religious divides - and frequently invited to participate in the ancient ceremony of "un chanteur, une chanson" without anyone enquiring as to their cult of choice.
Yes, there is bigotry in the employment market, but I am assured by older Catholic friends that it is much diminished from when they first entered the labour market in the 50s and 60s. Bigotry is a problem we have to keep an eye on, and beyond doubt it is encouraged by the ridiculous segregation of religious schools from the mainstream. Nevertheless, it is probably, when considered against the total population of Scotland, no worse than anywhere else in the UK. I tend, anyway, to discount much of the religious pretension of our local style of bigots given that most of those I have encountered don't strike me as church-going folk but rather as incipient hooligans looking for an excuse for a fight - something common to many towns which have rival football teams and a lunatic fringe element amongst their fans. That's something to be deprecated certainly, but it is not a purely Scottish phenomenon.
Just a wee anal-retentive ps - as a professional pedant, I'm continually being annoyed on this forum by the confusion of "lose" (pron. looz) - to mislay - and "loose" (pron. looss) - to unfasten or set free. "Losing" = not winning, "loosing" = undoing a knot, setting free. Having said that, somebody even more anal-retentive will probably now haul me up for a spelling mistake!
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122. NCA999
"It's so so easy to play the 'blame westminster' game..."
So long as Westminster retains control who the hell else would be to blame?
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What is received wisdom? It may be considered in a number of ways. For the sake of elegant simplicity, let us choose one of them. It may be said to be, for instance, a system of thought or belief which has gained the upper hand because it has been presented as received wisdom in such a way that people have generally allowed themselves to be persuaded that that is indeed what it is, as a result of saturation coverage in the media, which may even have endorsed it. Consequently, the people may be said to have received it, and so it may now be presented as the norm, from which deviance may only occur at the cost of ridicule. Hey presto! There you have your received wisdom no matter how many holes you can pick in it, . . . except that the process does not work so well these days, because we have the Internet, which loses no time in subverting received wisdom if it can be shown to be neither entirely received nor entirely wise.
At the present time we are invited to believe that it is accepted and indeed must be accepted that recovery from the financial and economic crises, which were caused primarily by what may not unjustly be represented as the excesses of deregulated anglo-American casino capitalism, cannot take place without calling upon the civic solidarity of the general population, not least the less favoured elements of it. In the name of the said civic solidarity what is it that the less favoured elements of society are being told that received wisdom requires of them? Their piggy bank having been plundered to bail the banksters out when their Ponzi schemes got them into trouble, the poor are now told that it stands to reason that, in order to fill up the piggy bank again, something is going to have to change around here. And what might that be?
What that might be is the Welfare State and the European model of society as developed since the Second World War. The received wisdom that is gradually being rolled out in the UK and elsewhere is that these can no longer be afforded. To begin with the message is that they will have to be reformed. As they are reformed one will perceive that the role of the state in protecting the vulnerable against the excesses of the capitalist system is reduced. Consequently, the vulnerable become more vulnerable, and the piggy bank is filled up again, which it must be in time to bail the banksters out the next time they get their fingers burned by speculating with other people's money in glorified Ponzi schemes while going for a quick buck in the emerging markets in preference to investing in enterprises here that would employ people and benefit the real economy instead of throwing people out of work and making them vulnerable.
So there is to be austerity, shared by all, or so the story goes, but actually adversely affecting the poor and the moderately well off most of all. Deep Wastemonster-imposed public-spending cuts are to be announced this week. These will increase unemployment in the short term and are liable to lead to further unemployment by reducing demand in the UK economy, thus at best hindering recovery from the crisis and at worst thrusting the economy back into recession.
This is how to produce the dreaded W double dip recession which the most insightful economists have been warning about, whom anglo-unionist politicians have evidently been ignoring, these prognostications having been represented in the media as deviation from . . . received wisdom. And how is one schooled to respond to those who deviate from that which vested interests define as received wisdom? Yes, you've got it. One is not supposed to take them seriously, which is why the great systemic crisis happened in the first place, it having become received wisdom in the 1990s to dismantle the Glass-Steagall type of financial regulation which had been put in place in the 1930s with a view to preventing another Great Depression or comparable catastrophe. Accordingly deregulation came in, and casino capitalism took off. And so the stage was set for Act 1 of the tragedy which began to unfold in the latter part of 2007, Act 2 of which is now getting under way.
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#123 - "Interesting how the BBC cover the SNP conference."
The beeb do their usual trick of manipulating the language used when covering the key speakers. The amount of times commentators and pundits have used the phrase, "Salmond will use his speack to beg the Scotish voters for another chance", with the obvious implication that even he accepts that this term has been a disaster. Disgusting.
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NCA999:
#122.
"There's nothing different about next year from the last really. A Scottish devloved administration has a fixed budget to spend as they see best to promote all of the sectors over which they have responsibility. Our primary concern as the electorate isn't how much money we have in the bank (realistically we can't change that) but rather how we're going to make the money we have meet the needs that we have. Salmond knows that it doesn't matter how much he complains it isn't going to change anything so he loses nothing from doing so. Swinney however took a much more grown up approach I believe and actually seems to be focusing on that which he actually has control over."
I am suprised you do not see politics when you see it. Alex Salmond has a duty to remind the voters, who afterall have to vote again soon, just why Scotland faces cuts. Cameron blames the last Lab administration and Salmond blames Westminster. What's different?
"I hate debates about the economic viability of a future independent Scotland. The main reason for this isn't the ignorant nationalists claiming their idealistically hopeful scenarios but that we really have no idea what the outcome would be."
I agree, but you of course then go on to assume we would have debts and deficit to deal with (bottom paragraph). If Scotland was independent recently or tomorro, then yes. However we really have no idea of the policies we would have if Scotland was never apart of Great Britain, why suggest otherwise?
"...but I do believe that we would have ended up in exactly the same situation if not worse, in having massive debts and deficit, to pay for it."
Here you go! All doom and gloom when you just admitted to not having a clue what position we would be in.
"2. Accepting that the Scottish public do not want independence but striving and working for the most practical level of fiscal autonomy to best serve us, on a purely economic and not nationalistic (more is always good) philosophy."
If the public want fiscal autonomy then they can vote for it in a referendum. Simples.
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117. Rob04
Since you brought the topic up... I'm a member of the community which Hugh Macdiarmid called the Hiberno-Scots - I am descended from Irish speaking Catholic migrants from Donegal and was brought up as a Catholic in a working class community in the West of Scotland at a time when sectarian discrimination was still a powerful force. (Hiberno-Scots is a preferable term to "Catholic", since many of us who have experienced the sharp end of sectarian discrimination are in fact atheists or non-believers.) It is misleading and offensive to attempt to use sectarianism as a stick with which to beat Scottish nationalism. It was not Scottish nationalists who denied my family educational and employment opportunities, it was Scottish Unionists.
Scottish sectarianism and the discrimination and violence which it created are a product of Scottish Unionism. Irish migrants to Scotland and their families were discriminated against because the community was regarded as a threat to Protestantism, the Crown and the Union. In other words Hiberno-Scots were seen as a menace to a specifically British Unionist definition of Scottishness. The Scottish Unionist establishment created sectarianism, and institutions of the Union promulgated it and promoted it.
It is true that sections of the Scottish nationalist movement in the 1920s and 30s were also guilty of promoting sectarianism, however during this historical period the nationalist movement was politically irrelevant and consisted of a small fringe without power or influence. The main motors of sectarianism were very firmly located within the mainstream structures and institutions of British Unionism - the Kirk, the Scottish financial industry, the Scottish legal establishment, the Conservative and Unionist Party and the Orange Lodges. These were the organisations with political power and influence, and they were the organisations responsible for etching sectarianism into the Scottish body politic like acid eats into glass. None of this had anything to do with Scottish nationalism, but it had everything to do with British nationalism in a Scottish context.
Systematic discrimination is a thing of the past. Institutionalised sectarianism was fatally wounded in the 1960s when the Unionist consensus broke down for a complex set of reasons I'll not bore you with here. But it is not a coincidence that this was also the historical period which saw the first electoral breakthrough of a newly articulated Scottish civic nationalism which defined an open and inclusive Scottishness encompassing all Scots of whatever family background. Modern Scottish civic nationalism is diametrically opposed to sectarianism. Your comments richly illustrate how modern Scottish Unionism has yet to come to terms with its role in creating and maintaining the greatest social blight to afflict Scotland in the 20th century.
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Rob04:
#117.
"'Nitpick'? I knowe its probably been a 'small' thing for you but a history of excluding people from labour markets, housing, higher education on the basis of what god they followed and where they were from does deserve exposure to a wider and a public audience. 'A man's a man for a' that' and 'Jock Tamson's Bairns' are just wee myths invented to kae you feel better about yourself.
If you want to make daft statements about how 'welcoming' you are, try and face up to your history. It can be a bit of a long stretch for those living through it rather than historians commenting on great swathes of time. What next, 'nitpicking' as part of geological time!?"
Let's remind ourselves that issues elsewhere inflamed the situation in Scotland. I still do not understand why we must nitpick at Scotland's darkest moments in history. Sectarianism has only ever effected (mainly) western Scotland. I have never witnessed anything personally, isn't that good?
I find it interesting that you didn't bring up the Slave Trade or the Scots participating in the British Empire. I guess your one of those types that want sympathy for the crimes of the past. Hmm... get over it! Some things are left in the past.
I still agree with my earlier claim. Scotland has remained a welcoming place and has always grown minds willing to travel the world and share what they have with the world. That's what we should celebrate and remember.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I SOOOOOO agree with Nicola's notion to fund free prescriptions with cuts in NHS Management.
Too many NHS Boards are managerially top heavy and too many resources are being used keeping not particularly effective managers in public-paid jobs while they wait for their public-paid pensions.
Why do they have Accountants and Administrators AND one or more Business Support Manager(s). Why do they have CEO's, Chairs, Finance Directors, HR Directors AND a Chief Operating Officer?
Whilst it's nice to trumpet about protecting NHS funding let's not be fooled into thinking that is the same thing as protecting the funding of patient care. Plenty of money spent in the NHS - as in most public services - does not result in any improvement of quality or quantity of service delivered to the end-user / voter.
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119 Electric Hermit
I assume you were referring to the previous post to mine. I made no point about sectarianism and certainly wish to distance myself from the observations made in post 117.
A reply function would be very useful on this board.
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#126
And neither did I claim that the systemmatic discrimination that went on in the labour market for so long is still there - its much less diminished which is why I used the phrase 'mainly attitudinal'
#131
Again for you much of the above but also that the increasing influence of foreign (principally US) employers made real differences as they didn't understand the idea of excluding people on the basis of their schooling and 'surname'. And yes coming from that same community as you myself I remember when discrimination was alive, kicking and given free and full rein.
Shame though Willie Wolff never recognised that same ideological links as you and were Scottish nationalists and their voters immune? Not convinced.
#132
I made no plea for historical revisionism but I do think your statements was ridiculous and worth a challenge: what is your problem? Happy to wax on the slave trade if you want but I chose a topic that you might recognise but clearly not because any and all critique is 'nitpicking'. How strange, odd and closed-minded you seem.
Now what should I get over next?
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#135 G P Walrus
"A reply function would be very useful on this board."
There already is one... as demonstrated above.
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126. Bobelix
"Bigotry is a problem we have to keep an eye on, and beyond doubt it is encouraged by the ridiculous segregation of religious schools from the mainstream. Nevertheless, it is probably, when considered against the total population of Scotland, no worse than anywhere else in the UK. I tend, anyway, to discount much of the religious pretension of our local style of bigots given that most of those I have encountered don't strike me as church-going folk but rather as incipient hooligans looking for an excuse for a fight - something common to many towns which have rival football teams and a lunatic fringe element amongst their fans. That's something to be deprecated certainly, but it is not a purely Scottish phenomenon."
Amen, Brother (if you will excuse the phrase).
As someone who has been on the receiving end of bigotry (amazingly little of it in Scotland or because I am pretty identifiably American) I assure you that there is no group, religion, or nation that isn't guilty of it. Accusing Scotland of being more sectarian than the rest of the UK is pretty silly in view of the history of Oliver Cromwell and the extreme persecution that went both ways. There is a horrible history on all sides. The Catholics did their share of persecution when they had the power, of course, as some decendents of the Covenenters will be happy to remind you.
Instead of beating each other over the head with history, the only worthwhile thing to do is to work to end any remainders of prejudice and sectarianism (in all countries--and there is still PLENTY of it around everywhere in your country and mine).
If there were anything PRODUCTIVE in bringing up the history, I'd say fine. (Not that anyone is asking me but I've been known to give my opinion. ;-) ) Rehash it. But there isn't. All sides need to get over it and move on land NOT try to use it as some kind of political weapon. Before anyone (such as Unionists) do that, they had BETTER be sure their own hands are clean--and I can guarantee the are NOT.
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120. LondonHarris
"At least 1 Vote from down South for Scottish Independence, so just another 55 Million odd Votes to come.
It about time ALL you Whingers in England stop asking what Scotland is doing better in terms for its People, and just what it is that England lack's by demanding an English Parliament to look after your OWN interest.
This would then finally see the end of any Westminster Rule in Scotland with a full transfer of ALL Scottish Power to Holyrood, while at the same time a New English Government can do likewise in England by electing a NEW English Parliament."
Well, I hate to see all of the blame put on the English since the Scots haven't voted in people who would see this happened either, but like you I do get very tired (as a foreigner) of all the whingeing from the English. They do have the vote. If voters on all sides just put there vote where there mouth is, this problem could be solved.
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Rob04:
#136.
"I made no plea for historical revisionism but I do think your statements was ridiculous and worth a challenge: what is your problem? Happy to wax on the slave trade if you want but I chose a topic that you might recognise but clearly not because any and all critique is 'nitpicking'. How strange, odd and closed-minded you seem."
Ridiculous? How can it be ridiculous if the statements are true? Okay, you and I may disagree as to the extent of what I said but we should be able to agree that Scotland has been a place that many foreigners have came to settle into (and stay for that matter, it can't be all bad) and Scots have been more then willing to travel the world to enhance humanity in some way or another.
I am not closed minded at all. I have not denied the problem we used to have. I just choose not to obsess about it especially when we are comparing it against what we have contributed, which stands out alot more.
You can dwell on the differences we have. I want to share the success of the Scots regardless of the different walks of life they may have came from. We should share what unites us and what we should be proud of, not remind ourselves of old divisions and history that does not reflect todays society, generally speaking.
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138. "The Catholics did their share of persecution when they had the power, of course, as some decendents of the Covenenters will be happy to remind you."
Yes, my Covenanting ancestors in the male line ended up as refugees from Fife on Fair Isle, where, yes, they learned to knit. :D Since my mother was a Catholic, I've decide to forgive and forget.
"Scotland can't afford the Union" - great slogan or what? Provided everyone who uses it is in full command of the facts, it should be very effective in these times when everyone is having to count the pennies.
The SNP really needs to be ready with concrete policies at all times.I saw one of those TV panel/audience debates a few days ago. It was chaired rather half-heartedly by Glen Campbell who looked like someone wrestling with a digestive problem. Ian Gray, who had obviously been practising, had a mini-policy line prepared for nearly every question, while John Swinney - who is a brilliant policy formulator, but has a lot to learn about public presentation - kept using up his time giving the theoretical background to the SNP's positions and rarely managed to score any punches.
While the experienced observer can see through Gray's bluster, I'm pretty sure many in TV Land thought he had all the answers. The way Alex deals with him in Parliament is to fight fire with atomic radiation - Gray's "facts" are brushed aside by counter-facts from the FM's encyclopedic knowledge of Labour's policy history and a command of the issues few politicians can equal. John Swinney, however, badly needs to hone his debating skills and up his response speed: he's fine in a straight question and answer format, but when he also has to rebut opponents, he just doesn't have the political reflexes. I can't help feeling that Nicola or Alex Neil would have made mincemeat of Gray.
The Tory and Liberal reps on the panel appeared rather unenthusiastic about defending the UK Government's handling of the economy - I suspect that they suspect they're heading for wipe-out in Scotland. The SNP should be focusing hard on the Lib-Tory electoral base. While not every Labour voter is stuck in the "my Granny voted Labour so . . ." holding pattern, I don't think the SNP can make enough gains there to up last-time's vote, whereas the disillusioned Libs, at least, have a record of supporting similar policies and I have an idea some Scottish Conservatives might feel slightly more "Scottish" than "Conservative." Let's hope so!
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#126
Don’t know any schools that promote bigotry. Do you?
#140
Fine but stop making sweeping ridiculous statements again like 'scots enhancing humanity'. Is this what the Scots did in the North of Ireland? Its just too easy for me to counter.
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136. Rob04
Where exactly did I accuse you of saying that institutionalised sectarian discrimination was still going on? Since I did not imply you had done so, there was no need for you to correct me.
As for the remainder of your point, it's simply a shameless piece of whataboutery. You do not address yourself to the core issue, which is that Scottish sectarianism was a product of British nationalism in a Scottish context and that it was primarily fostered and promoted by the British Unionist establishment in Scotland. The people who made you and me fear for our physical safety when we were children called themselves British and waved Union flags. I don't have any childhood memories of being kept indoors by fearful parents because some Scottish nationalists were parading up and down, and I'm willing to bet that you don't either. But being kept off the street in case we were attacked by British nationalist Orangemen was a regular occurrence.
Sectarianism was mainstream in the first half of the 20th century, and all Scottish political parties and their supporters were complicit in it to some degree, including the SNP and the Labour party. (Sectarianism and the Labour party in the West of Scotland... Do you really want me to go there?) However you seem to be implying that Scottish nationalism was/is somehow intrinsically sectarian, neglecting to mention the important pan-Celtic and pro-Irish Republican strand of early 20th century Scottish nationalism.
As I'm sure you are well aware, Scottish nationalism was a minor fringe movement during the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century when sectarianism was at its worst. Even if Scottish nationalism had been intrinsically sectarian it did not have the political power or cultural influence to make sectarianism mainstream and blight the lives of hundreds of thousands of Scots of Irish descent. Only state approved British nationalism could do that.
Unlike the contemporary form of Scottish nationalism, early 20th century British nationalism in Scotland was intrinsically sectarian, and it did have control of the political and cultural institutions which enabled it to make sectarian bigotry the norm. Sectarianism is a Scottish manifestation of a British nationalist disease, it is not a Scottish nationalist disease. If you want to remove the last stains of sectarianism which disfigure modern Scotland, attacking Scottish nationalism isn't the way to go about it.
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Rob04:
#142.
"Fine but stop making sweeping ridiculous statements again like 'scots enhancing humanity'. Is this what the Scots did in the North of Ireland? Its just too easy for me to counter."
It's too easy for you to counter because your views are too limited. I have never denied the history, good or bad. I choose to promote the best because I want to inspire and remind others that we can make the difference.
You choose to smear anyone who sees the best in others as small minded or just ridiculous outbursts. That's sad, pathatic.
In your opinion what does Scotland have to boast about? So far according to you we have religous violence...
Great! That's something we will put up for the tourists! Will you please join us in 2010 and get over it.
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#143
No lecture needed from you to me on the causes and promotion of sectarianism please. You are just wasting your words. I'm quite comfortable with modern SN, less so with earlier versions and not comfortable at all with soft cultural nationalism of any description and garbage that usually starts with 'Scots are' and ends with stupidities such as 'welcoming'.
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#144
Try and avoid making generalisations that just cannot be sustained in the real world. Try and stick to the arguement. How difficult can it be. Where did this post come from? I make one criticism that is credible and can be evidenced and you give me all this superflous nonsense.
God its like listening to patchbruce and that line of can't criticise Scots or Scotland without being some sort of self-hater. Honestly, get a grip and go back and play with Benjamin Bunny.
Why would anyone boast about the place they live unless they had self-esteem issues? I don't do the cultural cringe.
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146. If you're a working class Scot of Irish descent and of a certain age then I'd assume you know all about sectarianism and who is to blame for it. I don't imagine for a second that you need me to tell you.
You just weren't doing a very good job of explaining it to everyone else.
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Rob04:
#146.
I have asked you a question, why will you not answer or is promoting Scotland's highpoints simply too much for you?
Well, I have not denied what you have said. Scotland has had highs and lows and I accept that. However we move on and progress. History is that, history. Things are best left in the past instead of reason as to why we should not celebrate our highs or in your case not be proud at all of our achievements.
It's not about boasting about the place you live. It's about celebrating the best aspects that makes your country, different, unique. Those aspects that we can share with others. You may disagree but I believe Scotland has and still does have much to offer the world.
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Scotland is riddled with examples of the undemocratic wee-free fiefdom it would become if we became independent.
(I see my Trump golf course comment got the censors black pen treatment.)
The trams farce in Edinburgh is another excellent example of a project which should have been put out of its misery two years ago.
TIE should have been put down like a mad dog.
But some mysterious magical force of nature seems to keep this hugely destructive bankrupt project alive.
If they merge with Lothian Buses the Trams will destroy the bus service, one of the best in the country, but they don't care about that, they only want their next paycheck and now the TIE piggy bank has been emptied(half-a-billion quid!!) they need to raid another fat and vulnerable bank account.
My own view is that the people who cooked up this crackpot scheme are highly successful sociopaths, happy to make themselves a lot of money while having no regard for the social upheaval and destruction left in their wakes.
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Such is the massive economic burden Scotland is on the rest of the Union with all the freebies its gets. Scotlands funding of terrorist activity against England. The racism of all Scots as expressed by their violent football fans. Its time to rid Scotland of the Union and Nato a disgrace of a country Scotland and thats the truth.
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#150
Keep taking the tablets.
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#149
"Scotland is riddled with examples of the undemocratic wee-free fiefdom it would become if we became independent."
Which and where?
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150. Rulechangecrazy
How much vinegar do you put on those chips?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#154
Your #154 appears to be unconscionably held up by the censors of the UK state. In case it contains a reply to my #152 I would hang around, but, as it is very late, the wooden stairs to Bedfordshire are beckoning. Nighty night.
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Both my Trump comment and my the-politics-of-the-Trams comment got canned...
lol
Anything to do with munney and Scotlands ruling elites tends to be pretty sensitive material.
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#156
You are, of course, not the only one to fall foul of the UK state broadcaster's mysteriously censorious ways. Your explanation, however, as you very well know, is not one that a sensible chap such as myself can be excpected to take seriously.
Not inconceivably they thought 'munney' was a foreign word. They don't like that. All must be English. How cosy that would be. All problems solved. "All necessities provided. All anxieties tranquilized. All boredom amused." (Network, 1976)
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137. Roll_On_2011
But one can still screw up occasionally. My apologies to G P Walrus.
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#147
Why did you need me to explain something you and many others (except of course the American guy!) so self-evidently recognised? I can understand why you would want to distance this current version of nationalism from it and blame it all on those others, in which case you needed to do the explaining not me.
You'll feel better now that I've explained that for you.
#148
You asked me what Scotland had to 'boast' about and I answered. That you don't like my response is not my problem but you can hardly change the terms now.
Lets just deal with the high-points? Focus on the best? Forget the past (and present)? We can all have positive-speak only? And then we can kid ourselves on that sectarianism is just a thing of the 'past' and we can all move on, or 'get over it'?
I can understand you'd probably rather we sell tartan and shortie to tourists and feed them the standard historical myths that we are a classless (A man's a man eh!), mobile and educated (the lad of pairts and the kailyard) society, so keep going and let's not mention any uncomfortable things that still go on and are with us today but would counter this moronic nonsense.
Why?
Because Tom does'nt like it and we've spoken about it enough already! Superb.
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Rob04:
Now thats ridiculous. There is an incredibly big difference to the problems of the past that was motivated by religion and the problems today thats motivated because "They did that to my great great grandfather."
Yes focus on the best. There is a reason why we learn about the romantic parts of the wars for independence and not remind ourselves of our treatment by the English.
Historical myths? Nonesense. I have not lied, I choose not to obsess on the dark parts of history. I choose to tell of our highlights. However why won't you answer the question I asked? Is it that you do not believe Scotland has anything to be proud of and that we are all religous fruitcakes? Unlike you I have not denied our past. However you seem to think that we have not changed and that my generation will have the same ridiculous petty problems as yours. Hopefully your problems comes to an end when your generation finally comes to an end and the younger generation can continue to progress.
Yes, get over it. The past is now history and the future, although we have problems, is certainly brighter. It is important we keep the best aspects of ourselves and weed out the problems.
This is for you *plays violin*
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There's still plenty of sectarianism in Scotland.
The marching season has loads of orange walks.
Catholics don't talk about it, especially with strangers(like a visiting American) it's too dangerous.
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The first thing a Scottish catholic learns to do after leaving school and joining the real world is to lie on job application forms when they ask you what the last school you went to was.
The sectarian radar stays on full power all your life, like being a jew in modern Germany, everybody loves ya now:-'cos the government sez they do...but the personal radar stays on a 360 degree sweep and never gets switched off...because you never know do you...
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#160
Fluffy bunny time for a person who sees so little of what goes on in his own country. I'll leave you to boast about your country: one more idle windbag is all that is.
Historical myths YES: that disguise the fact that so many of you were a bunch of religious bigots, and so proud of it.
Amd I'll get over it when I have some certainty that my young kids (nothing to do with my Grandfather) don't grow up in a bigoted wee hole with the same people who would label them as a 'fenian' (and Tom you can here it live on Sky/ ESPN every second Saturday and the extra police still don't enforce the law), a 'pape', a 'left-footer' whose 'eyes are too close togther' and who routinely 'lie' because they come from 'the Irish'.
And if you thinks its gone then why does the SGoverment promote anti-Sectarian initiatives, why do bodies such as UEFA refer to it as 'the Scottish problem' (as ithers see you eh!) and why do such high rates feature in the Scottish Crime Surveys? Women in the boardroom? Yes please and I'll wait for Catholics to get let into the higher echelons of the engineering sectors as well thanks!
Where do you live Tom that you know so little.
Discrimination and prejudice are just not real for you Tom and the fact that you can ridicle it in people who get it doesn't make you a better person. What next. don't complain if people refer to you as a 'Paki' because Tom thinks you shouldn't.
A plesure to mock you Tom and now that I know what you are I can happily do it form afar.
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A Scottish Orange walk is not that dissimilar to a German Brownshirt march, and there's plenty of support and sympathy during the marching season from local scots.
They're just waiting for an opportunity to rise again, and Scottish independence would give them that opportunity.
London has kept a lid on things for a couple of hundred years, but like in Yugoslavia, these things simmer away below the surface from generation to generation.
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Rob04:
#163.
Inaccurate would be better suited. However historical myth is certainly not the appropiate word because I have not lied about what I said or made it up as I went along.
So many of you? Are you accusing me of religous bigotry? The atheist, no family members who has any religous backgrounds whatsoever... religous bigots?
I raised the issue of generations because I feel it is really a battle of generational perceptions. You clearly are old enough to remember the religious problems, I am not, I was born and brought up in a different Scotland. One that has made inroads into the problems religion has caused.
Just as religion is no longer as big a deal as it used to be I expect or least hope my children grow up in a Scotland, where alcohol is not as big a problem as it is today.
I can bat away the issues of religous problems just as I can ignore the old problems between Scotland and England because to me thats not who we are now.
I would admit that I can be ignorant to discrimination and prejudice. However I just say thats an example of just what my generation is about (I can't speak for us all of course). It's like 'To Kill a Mocking Bird', the children are clueless to the situation at hand because to an extent racism/prejudice views etc are past down from parents to children.
So, as I keep saying, get over it. Times are changing and people who do not change remain stuck in the past fighting a perceived battle that was over long ago.
Scotland has progressed and will continue to progress to better ourselves and our fellow man. That's something I look forward too, I only wish you had something as positive to look forward too aswell.
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#163
Discrimination and prejudice are just not real for you Tom and the fact that you can ridicle it in people who get it doesn't make you a better person. What next. don't complain if people refer to you as a 'Paki' because Tom thinks you shouldn't.
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No just do the traditional Scots/Irish thing and be quiet and the problems that are still here today will go away. Its called policy-by-hush. No offence, but I seriously do not think that this poster recognises that there are still problems today.
Surprised he didn't do the other typical response and call you paranoid, or lacking in Scottishness but since these things may yet happen this blog has suddenly become more interesting.
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Stew10:
#166.
I did not say, "There are no problems whatsoever." I have stated again and again that we still have problems but those problems were not as massive as before and I beleive we will progress forward, as I believe we have done and done so successfully.
If it's a matter of the problem remaining static for the past decade or increased then we can have a discussion. However I see no reason or point acting as if nothing has changed. I certainly have not been aware of any problems. Am I representive of the younger generation or fortunate enough to be out of the loop?
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