Isn't defeat wonderful?
And with one round, he was free. One round of voting, that is.
Labour's Iain Gray seemed decidedly liberated at first minister's questions today.
For why? For this reason: he no longer has to act as defence counsel for the UK Labour government, rebutting taunts from the FM. Isn't defeat wonderful?
Today Mr Gray had the best gag on offer: he did a few sums on the SNP performance in the UK election, by contrast with their forecast.
Instead of a Baker's Dozen - 13 not 12 - we had the Salmond Score, six not 20.
OK, Frankie Boyle's job is safe. But, on the day, it worked.
More seriously, Mr Gray tackled the issue of impending cuts, citing the example of jobs to be lost in NHS Greater Glasgow.
New coalition
These were not, he said, Labour cuts or Tory cuts or Liberal Democrat cuts. They were to be laid at the door of Alex Salmond and his Health Secretary, Nicola Sturgeon.
In response, Mr Salmond made two points: the NHS budget had risen in real terms, despite constraint on the total available; Scotland's largest parties (SNP and Labour) should unite to demand concessions from the new UK coalition.
Reasonable points to advance. Substantive issues. But, somehow, they fell a little short by contrast with the simplicity of liberated opposition, delivered by Mr Gray.
Now, that does not mean that Mr Gray has complete justice on his side. Merely that he no longer has to look over his shoulder when launching his oppositional attacks.
Further, he is buoyed by Labour's performance - in Scotland, strictly in Scotland - in last week's election.
'Tory anti-histamine'
Again, that does not mean Labour's showing will be replicated at the Holyrood elections next year.
On the day, Annabel Goldie performed rather well, swatting aside Mr Salmond's reminder that she had deplored the impact of a Cleg(g) bite during the election.
Tory anti-histamine would sort that, she soothed.
And Tavish Scott must be relieved that he didn't face more in the way of satire or invectice for his party's decision to support the Conservatives.
Mr Scott pre-empted such criticism by drawing attention to the announcement by the new (LibDem) Scottish Secretary that the detention of children in Dungavel will cease.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~23~RS~)
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'' Mr Scott pre-empted such criticism by drawing attention to the announcement by the new (LibDem) Scottish Secretary that the detention of children in Dungavel will cease.''
Mr Scott chickened out,I suspect we will see this more often.
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You're entitled to your opinion, Brian, as is the BBC in the article you link to, but as all the FMQ performances are available on DEMOCRACY LIVE here, why on earth don't you link to that, too, so that your readers can judge for themselves?
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Brian, the longer you and your ilk go on backing up Mr Gray and his colleagues' pathetic, negative nonsense the worse the situation is going to get for all of us in Scotland.
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Well done, Iain Gray, you've now risen from 3rd in command of Scottish Labour to 2nd.
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I doubt whether either Annabel Goldie or Tavish Scott are looking forward to the Scottish Parliamentary elections, due in just under a year's time, when the ConDem coalition's extra cuts will have had time to really bite.
This election will be especially interesting because it will give a clear indication of what Scottish voters think of the ConDem government. How will the Tory and Lib Dem parties fight the campaign, assuming of course that they still both exist? Will they put up candidates against each other in the constituency section?
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"On the day, Annabel Goldie performed rather well, swatting aside Mr Salmond's reminder that she had deplored the impact of a Cleg(g) bite during the election.
Tory anti-histamine would sort that, she soothed."
It was at least honest of Auntie Bella to remind us that we need not take seriously anything she and her colleagues say - even if somewhat redundant.
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Gray was certainly liberated from any need to speak the truth. "CUTS, CUTS, CUTS!" he bellowed, pointing at Tory, Lib Dem and SNP benches in turn. Oddly he failed to then continue to his own, despite the much-repeated public promise from Labour's own (ex) Chancellor of cuts worse than Thatcher's.
Perhaps he really does think the mythical "Scottish Labour" is a separate party to the British one that he's actually a member of. I wouldn't put it past Mr Gray's limited intellect to be confused in such a manner.
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Nealy 30 posts left hanging in the last blog.
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"More seriously, Mr Gray tackled the issue of impending cuts, citing the example of jobs to be lost in NHS Greater Glasgow."
Gray and his Tory allies are all over the place on this. In one breath they (dishonestly) accuse the SNP of denying the need for any cuts. In the next they are criticising the SNP for making the supposed cuts that they say are necessary.
Confused? The British Labour Party is certainly hoping that you are confused enough to forget how they campaigned on a false prospectus and brazenly bragged that they would prefer a Tory government to keeping faith with those who voted for them.
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Brian,
I find it remarkable that anyone can say NHS greater Glasgow and clyde cuts are anything other than labour cuts. After all, are these boards not filled with labour councillers?
Is this a case of burying bad news or diverting attention?
John
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The only place to be.
Newsnet Scotland
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Brian is surely correct to point that last week's truly wonderful respose by Labour Voters in Scotland "does not mean Labour's showing will be replicated at the Holyrood elections next year."
Any victory next year will be hard won, Alex Salmond is a formidable operator and will fight hard to remain as First Minister. I do detect a concern, even amongst those who don't wish the SNP ill, that they are becoming more and more of a one man band. An endless diet of Alex will prove counter productive so I can't wait for him to continue to hog the show in the coming year.
Two thing might prove critical. First, how Labour reacts to the inevitable cuts, both at Westminster and Holyrood. This is something that I'll return to in future posts. Second, much will depend on how our supporters view our new UK leader. Frankly, I'm less than inspired by Messrs Balls, Miliband and Miliband. John Cruddas or Andy Burnham might resonate better with our people.
Cruddas was my first choice for Deputy Leader and I hope that he's going to stand. If he does, he'll definitely have my first preference vote again.
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Instead of a Baker's Dozen - 13 not 12 - we had the Salmond Score, six not 20.
OK, Frankie Boyle's job is safe. But, on the day, it worked.
Taylor will forgive me for not taking his word for things. I wonder if 'The mild bunch' that sit behind Gray were whooping with delight.
One wonders what collective term might be used to describe those Scottish Labour politician who rejected out of hand the SNP offer to prevent a Tory government.
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"On the day, it worked."
Come on Brian, it was pathetic. It was a typical "laboured" Iain Gray joke. The SNP were the only other party to increase its vote share from 2005, and since no seats changed hands from 2005 then any accusations levelled at the SNP are equally true of the other three parties. None of the parties went into the election saying "we're going to hold all our seats, and that's it." Why is it so wrong to show a bit of ambition?
Anyway, I thought this was Holyrood? Why are they all posturing about the Westminster elections? If any of them truly understood the point of devolution, they'd know that UK results bear no correlation to the performances of the parties in Holyrood - just look at the differences in voting intentions between the two parliaments in all the opinion polls we've had in the last month for evidence of that. The people can separate the two (well, most can, I'm not so sure about the Labour heartlands), so why can't the politicians?
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Anmd whilst we are on the subject of numbers we have to remember that:
Labour's 41 equals a Tory Number 10.
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bmc875 your #303 from the previous thread
"The SNP did not win the General Election. The SNP did not increase the number of SNP MP seats at Westminster.
Please! To all those (regular) posters who cannot accept this, who write and/or quote poetry, who fantasize about 'The Auld days', who quote events from the 1600's, who declare dislike (at best) of 'The English' - Please get over it!
The first - and most basic rule of any conflict resolution is - ' Accept it'. [you do not have to like it!]
Now, once we can all agree to that, maybe, just maybe we can focus on the future of Scotlans's people and (if you are so inclined) the SNP."
I am also SNP member and echo your sentiments - learn lessons; move on; keep the message positive.
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Gray is still an angry, bitter, little man with no vision for the future of this country ... I cannot wait for the election campaign to begin. For those of you who thought it was unfair to put wee Jack up against Salmond, just wait till you see this contest between Scotland's FM and 'Fluffy' the depressed Westminster poodle.
Gray is a vote loser, and now without his key prop - Gordon. How long before the Labour party's 'Wessies' start their murderous campaign against the now defunct Fife-Lothian 'Ossie' leadership?
Further food for thought: the 2015 UK election is (supposedly) set for the 7th of May, the Scottish election is meant to be around the same date: assuming the fixed parliament is passed by the Commons and Lords ... it will be impossible to exclude the SNP from any future leader's debates at Holyrood or Westminster.
I mean ... naturally the BBC will try with all its British might, but ...
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Maybe Tavish Scott was hiding from the following:
New Health Secretary Andrew Lansley signalled deeper “efficiency savings” may be needed than those planned by Labour, with at least £20 billion squeezed from the NHS.
Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt admitted the £9.3 billion budget for the 2012 London Olympics was “not protected” — raising concerns that taxpayers in the capital may have to foot a higher bill than expected.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies warned of an “intense squeeze” on Whitehall departments not “ring-fenced” by the new Government, including Transport, the Home Office, Communities and the Ministry of Defence, while welfare payments could also be cut.
Economists struck a further note of gloom by predicting that VAT would be raised from 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent before the end of 2011.
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FMQs
We didn't get any real explanation as to why these people were being paid off, only a comment that the NHS budget was actually being increased. I assume there must be a good reason? Efficiency savings perhaps, which would be quite legitimate?
I suppose Labour councils can't be blamed for this one as they could do when GlasgowCC dumped a whole lot of teachers for political advantage.
I can't understand why Brian thinks Annabelle is funny. If the right wing Tories have their way she (and her 'jokes') will just be a distant memory.
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It's always nice to see the local MSPs and their "banter" going on.
And now we can wait for the usual suspects to emerge from their E-cubbies and loudly proclaim the great victory & genius of the aquatic duo of Salmon(d) and Sturgeon...
Perhaps a more sensible approach would be to discuss how best to implement cuts that are necessary across the UK rather than trying to deny they are happening or blaming eveyr cut on "anti-scottishness" from Westminster...
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Just listened to Iain Gray and no, Taylor is deluding himself if he believes Gray’s joke was any good – it was lame.
Gray has pretty much destroyed FMQ’s, getting louder and more prone to troll like name calling with every session. Anyone with a modicum of political knowledge can see that his NHS jobs attack was destroyed the moment Salmond revealed that the Scottish NHS has had more spent on it in real terms since the SNP came to power, this in the face of a real terms cut from Labour at Westminster.
Taylor needs to up his game and provide some serious analysis of Gray's claims instead of pointing to a feeble joke as evidence of a decent performance.
Similarly Taylor, as is now the norm, completely airbrushed out the FM’s attack on Labour for rejecting the progressive alliance. The statements from senior Labour MP’s is a very uncomfortable truth for reporters like Taylor who are simply reduced to not commenting on them, so damaging to Labour are they.
It’s now ‘the unmentionable’.
Finally, I say this not as an independence supporter but as a Scot; Iain Gray is not a fit person to assume the position of First Minister.
I suspect though that the Scottish media know this but will push for this shockingly limited and bitter individual to become just that – in one fell swoop the Scottish electorate would have nothing but scorn for it’s own parliament.
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@12 "Two thing might prove critical."
Actually it's really just one. The result of the 2011 Holyrood election will depend entirely on whether the Scottish people remember that it was Labour who let the Tories into government at Westminster this week. If they do, the SNP will sweep to a massive victory. If they allow themselves to be brainwashed to the contrary, Iain Gray will be the next First Minister, and God help us all.
The people of Scotland made a massive collective effort at tactical voting to stop that happening, benefiting members of all three other parties (eg Jim Murphy for Labour and Pete Wishart for the SNP). They were betrayed by despicable Labour MPs who preferred the cowardice of opposition, who feared the loss of their cushy safe seats under a fair voting system, and who openly preferred a Tory Prime Minister to having to be even briefly civil to Alex Salmond.
I genuinely don't know which will be the case. My opinion of the Labour herds in the West of Scotland is low, but I don't know if even they will fall this time for the desperate spin that Labour is already putting out, trying to blame the Lib Dems for accepting the only deal that was left on the table. The byelection in Glasgow East shows that they're not beyond hope, even in the face of its reversal last week (the idiot harridan Curran obviously realising that the less time she promised to spend with the voters the more popular she'd be). For Scotland's sake, I pray they rise to the task again.
COWARDS OF SCOTLAND
destroyers of the progressive alliance
Douglas Alexander MP (Paisley And Renfrewshire South)
Brian Donohoe MP (Central Ayrshire)
Jim Murphy MP (East Renfrewshire)
Margaret Curran MP (Glasgow East)
Tom Harris MP (Glasgow South)
John Reid
Johann Lamont MSP
Iain Grey MSP
Jack McConnell MSP
Lord Foulkes Of Cumnock MSP (and House Of Lords)
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Shocker.
The nationalists have unanimously decided that Salmond again won this FMQs as he has won every single one of them ever.
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#4 northy
"Well done, Iain Gray, you've now risen from 3rd in command of Scottish Labour to 2nd."
Good point, and although the fact that his boss is now the rt. hon. member for Camberwell and Peckham would normally attract sympathy, he didn't exactly rise to the challenge.
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#9 wrote:
"Confused? The British Labour Party is certainly hoping that you are confused enough to forget how they campaigned on a false prospectus and brazenly bragged that they would prefer a Tory government to keeping faith with those who voted for them."
This is not what Labour said. They said they would prefer a Tory Government to working with the SNP. Very understandable. Touchy things, minorities.
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#303. At 1:43pm on 13 May 2010, bmc875 wrote:
1- "I am an SNP Member."
AND?
2 - "The SNP did not win the General Election. The SNP did not increase the number of SNP MP seats at Westminster".
So you DID noticed?
3 - "Please! To all those (regular) posters who cannot accept this"
Who is it you imagine cannot accept that fact?
4 -""Who write and/or quote poetry".
Best take that up with Brian - he set the theme for the blog by quoting from G & S.
5 - "Who fantasize about 'The Auld days', who quote events from the 1600's".
It is the ongoing legal signed 1603 treaties and the 1707 Act of parliament that the entire matter of independence is all about. It is one of those two historic facts we are attempting to recind. We cannot be independent as long as those two documents are still in force.
6 - Who declare dislike (at best) of 'The English'"
I don't see many expressing such a dislike of the English people anywhere on the blog. Are you, perhaps, confusing dislike, hate and utter loathing of the Westminster, "UNITED KINGDOM" Parliamentary System with dislike of an entire countries people?
7 - "Please get over it"!
Well you ask nicely but the answer is still, "NO" . Just who the hang do you think you are?
8 - "The first - and most basic rule of any conflict resolution is - ' Accept it'. [you do not have to like it!]"
Neither do you - so why are you on the attack? Then you jump to far too many wrong conclusions. Most nationalists here are neither upset by the election result nor surprised by them. They were much as expected.
9 - "Now, once we can all agree to that, maybe, just maybe we can focus on the future of Scotlans's people and (if you are so inclined) the SNP".
You come on here and attempt to tell people who have spent a great deal of time, effort and even cash with only one aim in view - Independence FROM THE UNITRED KINGDOM PARLIAMENTARY UNION and try to dictate to them YOUR TERMS. If you don't like it then you know what to do about it. Go and counter the posters telling lies, distorting facts and vilifying the people of Scotland. I did not ask for this internecine warfare - but in no way will I cower in a corner under attack fron the likes of you.
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Drawing a link between Frankie Boyle and Iain Gray is a good one Brian.
Frankie's schtick is to do down Scots for an English audience,painting as fat, friedfood obsessed drunken low-lifes.
Iain Gray's job is similar.
As to FMQs, I'll do my usual and watch it tonight and form my own opinions, though Rab's FMQ sketch is usually worth a read.
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@13 "One wonders what collective term might be used to describe those Scottish Labour politician who rejected out of hand the SNP offer to prevent a Tory government."
I like my own "Cowards Of Scotland". It's accurate and snappy, and "cowards" sounds quite a bit like "flower", making it an amusing pun. Job done!
I can't for the life of me think of anything more cowardly than abandoning the country to the Tories and running away from a viable chance of power because you were scared it might be difficult, scared you might lose your cushy safe seat, scared of having to try to find another job that pays £65,000 to sit on your backside and snipe uselessly, and scared you might have to get over your poisonous, blind hatred of the SNP.
The fact is inescapable, however hard Labour and their tame media try to spin it in the coming months. The Lib Dems and the SNP tried to save Scotland from the Tories, even if it meant keeping their bitterest rivals in (shared) power. Brown, for all his faults, stepped up to the plate and did what he could. But the rest of Labour bottled it, and mostly Scottish figures in Labour sabotaged it. Labour alone are responsible for David Cameron being Prime Minister, both through their 13-year record and their shameful cowardice of this week.
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There's little sign on here that people have actually read the Con-Lib coalition agreement so here it is:
http://tinyurl.com/25qnfav
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Once more Wee Eck wipes the floor with the opposition.
Iain Gray - the man who has spent his entire political career sat on a drawing pin.
Tavish Scott - Auntie Annabel's new toy boy.
Annabel Goldie - tripping on one to many Soor Plooms.
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#12 Jim Stevens
"Two thing might prove critical. First, how Labour reacts to the inevitable cuts, both at Westminster and Holyrood ... Second, much will depend on how our supporters view our new UK leader."
Fair point, although the omens are hardly good when Gray could not admit to the inevitability of the cuts promised by Darling or any of the other other points re "capital acceleration, borrowing powers, the £180m fossil fuel levy, the Olympic consequentials that should be running into the Scottish economy" where the FM sought consensus.
I agree that Cruddas would be the best hope of turning the Labour Party back into a left-wing one, although as an old Liberal but never an unLib unDem I would be as concerned about his centralising tendencies as I would be of any old Labour politicians like Foot and Benn or even ex-Labour Social Democrats like Cable.
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19. hamish42
Perhaps it's to allow for increased interest payments expected on PPP schemes?
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Tavish Scott has the charm and charisma of a wet flannel.
I wondered why he wasn't offered a job in Nick's coalition - but the answer has been there for all to see - flannel.
As he is the leader of the Lib Dems in Scotland I am salivating at the thought of how he is going to defend the cuts to the NHS, the possible non production of the second aircraft carried at Rosyth etc.
At least Alex Salmond is very charismatic and posesses the ability to debate eloquetly. He is passionate about what he believes in and makes no bones about it. He has in my opinion one of the most brilliant minds in politics today.
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From Fa la la
327. albamac
Well, we seem to be confusing comments directed at a group (ranting nat posters) and an individual, you. Fair enough, maybe my post was a bit generic in its focus. But the point is two fold. Ranting nat posters take instant offense and react as if all posts were intended as a personal insult. When I point this out, as a long term independence supporter, how it has a very real negative effect, I am treated with the very same disdain. Silly, don't you think. It's biting off their nose to spite their face. Dumb. (Yes! And I'm not as dumb.)
What's the point in taking offense at my raising the salient point, if it is a fair point? You took offense. A rational response would indeed have been to see my point for what it was. But you fell. Instead you turned on me. I don't do 'thinly veiled' because like you I do see that as rude.
I won't bore you, but seeing as you mentioned it, I too received a letter, with thanks, from our local successful SNP candidate, and Alex Salmond etc. etc. etc. So we're both on the same side.
Yes, raising this on the public blog was my intention, because, as it's a public blog, my intention was to highlight to lurker readers that this is not the main face of nationalism and that these vocal idiot posters are merely an irrelevant fringe. That's how blogs work, for the purposes of campaigning, as I'm sure you no doubt know.
I'm sorry but in your earlier post you did whinge on a bit about, "Can you, honestly, see any evidence that our desire for parity would carry an ounce of weight in the deliberations of English politicians whose primary concern is the preservation of their power in England? The simple truth is that, whatever our political preferences, we get what England elects and they couldn't give a flying fart how that affects anyone but themselves!"
Of course I know the constitutional and parliamentary situations as well as you, but I'm saying I don't think this sort of victim perspective is helpful anymore. I'm telling you, whether you want to believe me or not, it doesn't come across well. It is off-putting for undecideds. I'm not telling you to have a go, I'm telling you because I know it will be beneficial to the cause of independence if posters don't sound that way anymore.
"These feelings of resentment were openly espoused, encouraged and promoted by Unionist politicians, journalists and broadcasters, many of whom, to their everlasting shame, are Scots." Uh, huh! But outdoing them in such a competitive fashion as you seem to advocate will only make us look as bad - waste of time, and I think you know it is.
You surely see the damage to our credibility posters like Electric Hermit especially do? For that reason I do think I can "dismiss genuine expressions of frustration and anger because they don't meet a standard of 'presentation' set by you.". Yes, I can, because they are self destructive, and do more harm, certainly in a public forum such as this, than good. Do you not think I feel exactly the same frustration? But I want to win this, so I think it is wiser to put my efforts into the positive way forward. A leader is someone who can come back from defeat stronger, someone said. Who's going to listen if we just grump?
But is it more important to discredit me. I suppose it's up to you.
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#11 Online Ed
"Newsnet Scotland"
Many thanks for that link, Ed. An excellent article by Kenneth Roy, although I have to agree with much of what Clare has to say in the third comment, despite her apparent confusion between Liberalism and anything that Clegg might have to say.
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20. DrK
"Perhaps a more sensible approach would be to discuss how best to implement cuts that are necessary across the UK..."
Perhaps a more sensible approach would be to stop the infantile name-calling.
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#12. At 2:51pm on 13 May 2010, Jim Stevens wrote:
1 - Brian is surely correct to point that last week's truly wonderful respose by Labour Voters in Scotland "does not mean Labour's showing will be replicated at the Holyrood elections next year."
Very much so.
2 - "Any victory next year will be hard won, Alex Salmond is a formidable operator and will fight hard to remain as First Minister. I do detect a concern, even amongst those who don't wish the SNP ill, that they are becoming more and more of a one man band. An endless diet of Alex will prove counter productive so I can't wait for him to continue to hog the show in the coming year".
I've said it before but as to getting media time it is not up to the First Minister whether he gets media coverage from a hostile media or not. That situation becomes much worse for other MPs and MSP.
3 - "Two thing might prove critical. First, how Labour reacts to the inevitable cuts, both at Westminster and Holyrood. This is something that I'll return to in future posts. Second, much will depend on how our supporters view our new UK leader. Frankly, I'm less than inspired by Messrs Balls, Miliband and Miliband. John Cruddas or Andy Burnham might resonate better with our people".
I'm sitting watching the, "NHS Quality Strategy", on the Parliament Channel and the Scottish Labour MSPs are making a sustained attack about the cuts at Glasgow Health Board. As has already been pointed out they are the main force on that board, Their Labour Party while in power reduced the Scottish funding by £500million. Not to mention that almost the first SNP government act was to recind hospital closures from the former Labour government at Holyrood. These Labour MSPs talk with forked tongues.
4 - "Cruddas was my first choice for Deputy Leader and I hope that he's going to stand. If he does, he'll definitely have my first preference vote again".
As to that, I have no real urge to support any of them
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26. Auld Bob
Auld Bob, (from last thread) with all your trillions of years working with fifteen computers at a time, why can you not put spaces in between quotes and paragraphs?
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21. Online Ed
"Finally, I say this not as an independence supporter but as a Scot; Iain Gray is not a fit person to assume the position of First Minister."
He's not even fit to be leader of the opposition. In this role he has completely failed party, parliament and people.
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I see that Councillor Terry Kelly is moaning on his blog about media bias against Labour. Shame.....don't you just want to shed a tear?
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23,
RE Wrote "The nationalists have unanimously decided that Salmond again won this FMQs as he has won every single one of them ever."
You wrote this at post 23 so that makes 22 posts prior to yours and some of them are from the same people, so in your tiny weird mind less than 22 is a unanimous amount of nationalists??
Do you ever wonder why people don't take you serious???
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21. Online Ed
"...in one fell swoop the Scottish electorate would have nothing but scorn for it’s own parliament."
Which, of course, is exactly what the British Labour Party wants. So eager were they to denigrate and diminish the standing of our parliament they couldn't - and in some cases still can't - bring themselves to refer to the Scottish Government. Anything they can do to bring the parliament into disrepute they will do with relish. Their contempt for the parliament reflects their contempt for the people who elect it.
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#17 Patrick Kirkwood
"How long before the Labour party's 'Wessies' start their murderous campaign against the now defunct Fife-Lothian 'Ossie' leadership?"
Ssssh! Hadn't you noticed that that they're bereft of ideas? Don't help them!
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Iain Gray's performance a First Ministers questions was totally despicable.
Exactly what will he and his party in Holyrood do to protect Scotland from the invevitable "Tory-Lib" spending cuts, attacking the SNP will certainly not do it!! "Liberated" you say Brian, it was an unappropriate and ill judged rant.
With the Scottish Elections next year he would do well to remember that as an old friend of a "the son of the manse"
"PRIDE COMES BEFORE A FALL"
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I noticed from the little I seen of FMQ, I will watch it in full later, that the wannabe 'supreme being' Iain Grey forgot to meantion that if HIS government had not filled the NHS with more managers and non medical staff, then MAYBE just maybe, the NHS would be in BETTER condition.
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23. Reluctant-Expat
"The nationalists have unanimously decided that Salmond again won this FMQs as he has won every single one of them ever."
It isn't a contest, you fool! It is supposed to be an opportunity for the opposition to scrutinise the government's policies and performance for which the First Minister is accountable. As such, it is a moderately important, though hardly crucial, element of the democratic process. Unfortunately, it depends on a competent, mature opposition. Instead of which, we get Ian Gray.
It is not a case of Alex Salmond winning. Although he is self-evidently head and shoulders above most others as regards debating skills. But Gray manages to make Salmond look a helluvalot better than he actually is.
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Looking ahead to Holyrood elections next year, I fear the worst for Scotland! No matter whether the SNP remain the party with the most MSPs, the Unionists will gang up to keep the SNP out. I can see Labour taking power supported by the Condems ( vote Labour - be Condem'd). Labour in Scotland - whose priority is the Union and themselves - will have no problem in accepting whatever the Condems and Westminster throw at us; what is good for Scotland does not come into it. No-one to stand up for Scotland.
RE and Jim Stevens may welcome this scenario - London rule is back - but for many others like myself it does not bear thinking about.
This realisation has just come to me; I feel physically sick; must go.
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Watching the events of the last several days, I've been trying to understand the mentality and the vantage point from where Scottish Labour view the world. It's taken me a while to "get them" as their world view is completely bizarre. But if you start thinking in an unrationale way, then maybe they start to make some sense. I've formed an opinion...
I think that Labour in Scotland is something akin to a cult. Or perhaps some kind of medieval secret society; tribal, closed to clear thinking. Like a masonic society gone bad. It's not a political party in the sense that I understand it. The clue was the references, I think from Tom Harris, when he talked about moves for a Progressive Alliance being not in the interests of the Labour Party. This can be put in another way; forget the interests of the electorate, the economy, schools, the needy (I could go on) etc. On a light heartened note, perhaps we should petition Dan Brown to write a novel, with Labour and it's cultish practices, at it's core.
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Oh forgot to add, I notice, YET AGAIN Labour sticks the boot into the Scottish People, by refusing the FM's reasonible offer of joining forces to stop the ConDem from hurting the Scottish People.
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25. Alan
"This is not what Labour said. They said they would prefer a Tory Government to working with the SNP."
Some rather desperate hair-splitting there. I suspect we'll be seeing a lot of that as devotees of the British Labour Party frantically strive to contrive some rationalisation for the disgraceful behaviour of Murphy, Reid and the rest.
But Scotland's voters are not likely to easily forget that "Scottish" Labour betrayed them for the sake of nothing more noble than the bitter, petty prejudices of a herd of political dinosaurs.
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#23 & #29,
"Yes dear - your medication will arrive shortly. 'Iain Gray is wonderful, Skeletor is wonderful, Broon was the best PM ever' ... now just take this, and then you can sit next to the fire with Ming and talk about the good old days."
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Brian I'm afraid this is just twaddle; twaddle and tweedles.
Suggest you listen to the whole thing again - you'll probably find that the BBC iPlayer has some sort of a malfunction, but you'll get it elsewhere.
Yes Dour Iain is back to his brilliant best, how low are you going to set the bar?
I hear that GB is going to stay on representing Kirkcaldy. Did I hear the reporter refer to him incessantly as the PM? It's going to be tough for you BBC types, just as it is for NuLab. Now, once again join in O P P O S I T I O N - that was their choice.
Was it just me or was the chamber a little bit quieter without two of the caterwauling Fuddites now moved to London, you know the ones with the double salary conundrum?
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26. Auld Bob
"Most nationalists here are neither upset by the election result nor surprised by them. They were much as expected. "
That is the simple unvarnished truth, readily and amply confirmed by even the most cursory examination of comments. The only ones making a (rather ridiculous) fuss about the SNP's electoral performance are those ideological unionists who are obviously deeply upset that the SNP did so well when they were forlornly hoping for a Tory-style wipe-out.
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Signing off now as I'm off to the pub for a pint whilst I still have some pennies in my pocket.
Cheers
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As an ex-member of the Labour Party, I confess to being totally and utterly repelled and disgusted by their actions over the last few days. Any party which for reasons of self interest pays more attention to the internicine with the SNP in Scotland, at the expense of inflicting a Conservative dominated coalition government is surely guilty of at the least amoral dereliction of duty ; not too mention an absurd logical flaw. That is if it is committed to the Union, then surely it is more logical to spare the whole country from the Tories rather than to refuse to particioate in some sort of arrangement with the SNP at Westminster. I find myself able only to explain these actions by suggesting that distrust and baiting of the SNP is of greater concern to Labour than opposing the Conservatives.
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Today Mr Gray had the best gag on offer...
Fine he had a gag that wasn't too bad (actually is was rather but let's pretend). How about making a legitimate POINT?
Have you EVER considered that the FMQ are not supposed to be a comedy act? Every week you do this.
You do NOT choose to discuss whether his point had any legitimacy... whether Mr. Salmond's response had any legitimacy.
Frankly, your post has no worth whatsoever.
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29. Reluctant-Expat
"There's little sign on here that people have actually read the Con-Lib coalition agreement so here it is:"
I've read it. There's nothing in it to make me think we have anything other than a Tory government supported by LibDems whose price for a near total sell-out was a few minor cabinet positions. Arguably the most important part of the LibDem's platform - which had huge support across the UK - was electoral reform. As expected, that has been fudged almost out of existence.
Your powers of political analysis are always a source of excellent comedy. Pray tell us, which bits of fluff have impressed you.
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#16. At 3:00pm on 13 May 2010, clachangowk wrote:
1 - "The SNP did not win the General Election. The SNP did not increase the number of SNP MP seats at Westminster".
My! My! Have you just noticed? Most of us had realised that on election day+1.
2 - "Please! To all those (regular) posters who cannot accept this".
Who did you think had not yet found that out?
3 - "Who write and/or quote poetry.
Don't you think we have more than enough moderators without amateurish, would be tyros like yourself?
4 - "Who fantasize about 'The Auld days', who quote events from the 1600's.
Just how stupid are you? Are you not aware the thing that makes the union, "A United Kingdom", is the treaty, in 1603, that brought about the two kingdoms under one common crown? Are you so unaware of what any Scottish Nationalist is striving to end is both the, "Treaty of Union", and the Scottish Act Of Union of 1707. These documents are what makes Elizabeth Queen of Scots and legally binds us to a political union we wish to leave?
5 - Who declare dislike (at best) of 'The English'
I cannot recall anyone on this blog ever express such opinions.
6 - "- Please get over it!"
No one can, "Get Over", something they have not got. Why are you telling lies?
7 - "The first - and most basic rule of any conflict resolution is - ' Accept it'. [you do not have to like it!]"
You really are quite mad - no one has failed to accept, "it", whatever , "it", you refer to. If you mean the election result then, for most, nationalists, the election went just about how they expected it would go. Most held no great expectations and, what is more, seem quite please at the abysmal way that Labour in Scotland treated their own voters - it bodes well for the Scottish elections. Most were also pleased that the other Tweedles treated Scotland with such distain, more election ammo for next election.
8 - "Now, once we can all agree to that, maybe, just maybe we can focus on the future of Scotlans's people and (if you are so inclined) the SNP."
Let me point out a couple of tiny wee facts for you - You are the person on the attack. I am but responding to that attack. The very fact that you are attacking other nationalists indicates that the one lashing out in frustration is you and your fellow attackers.
9 - "I am also SNP member and echo your sentiments - learn lessons; move on; keep the message positive"
Err! excuse me but the negative nuances are all on your side.
How dare you attempt to moderate other people's views and prevent their freedom of speech - please, if you imagine that is the attitudes expected from Scottish Nationalist I urge you to think again.
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22. Rev_S_Campbell
""Two thing might prove critical."
Actually it's really just one. The result of the 2011 Holyrood election will depend entirely on whether the Scottish people remember that it was Labour who let the Tories into government at Westminster this week. If they do, the SNP will sweep to a massive victory. If they allow themselves to be brainwashed to the contrary, Iain Gray will be the next First Minister, and God help us all.
The people of Scotland made a massive collective effort at tactical voting to stop that happening, benefiting members of all three other parties (eg Jim Murphy for Labour and Pete Wishart for the SNP). They were betrayed by despicable Labour MPs who preferred the cowardice of opposition, who feared the loss of their cushy safe seats under a fair voting system, and who openly preferred a Tory Prime Minister to having to be even briefly civil to Alex Salmond."
Exactly!
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40. eye_write
Naughty Girl!
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48. Electric Hermit
"It is not a case of Alex Salmond winning. Although he is self-evidently head and shoulders above most others as regards debating skills. But Gray manages to make Salmond look a helluvalot better than he actually is."
It is hard to imagine ANYONE who wouldn't look good next to Iain Gray and that howling backbench. Frankly, the First Minister doesn't even have to work at it.
I agree that lame jokes and brushing them aside is NOT what the FMQ is supposed to be about and Mr. Taylor constantly covering the stupid jokes is almost as lame as Iain Gray trying to make them week after week.
There is also the problem that Gray's accusations almost always come back to bite him. Accusing the SNP of cuts which were made by Labour councillors does not make a good political point, I don't care WHO makes it.
The knee jerk "Oh, my God, they're defending Salmond whom I hate" from the usual suspects is pretty transparent as well. If someone thinks that Gray made a good point then defend his point. IF you can.
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50. Blind_Captain
"I think that Labour in Scotland is something akin to a cult."
At the risk of being slightly indelicate, I suspect a typo in the above.
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eye-write 327. wrote
"Yes, raising this on the public blog was my intention, because, as it's a public blog, my intention was to highlight to lurker readers that this is not the main face of nationalism and that these vocal idiot posters are merely an irrelevant fringe."
eye-write, is everything ok with you? you sound kind of overwrought.
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#20. At 3:21pm on 13 May 2010, DrK wrote:
1 - And now we can wait for the usual suspects to emerge from their E-cubbies and loudly proclaim the great victory & genius of the aquatic duo of Salmon(d) and Sturgeon".
Argumentum ad hominem is the argumebt of fools."
2 - Perhaps a more sensible approach would be to discuss how best to implement cuts that are necessary across the UK rather than trying to deny they are happening or blaming eveyr cut on "anti-scottishness" from Westminster.
The SNP have been doing that for years. Scrap Trident. Cancel, "Son of Trident", Scrap the ID cards. Do away with the Secretary of State for Scotlan's department. Stop the London Olympics. Call a halt to Crossrail. All SNP calls in the recent past. Where were you hiding?
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26. Auld Bob
"You come on here and attempt to tell people who have spent a great deal of time, effort and even cash with only one aim in view - Independence FROM THE UNITRED KINGDOM PARLIAMENTARY UNION and try to dictate to them YOUR TERMS. If you don't like it then you know what to do about it. Go and counter the posters telling lies, distorting facts and vilifying the people of Scotland. I did not ask for this internecine warfare - but in no way will I cower in a corner under attack fron the likes of you."
Well put, Auld Bob!
You're my hero.
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A new chiel here, don't see much telly, managed to see FMQs. Can't understand it, must have been watching a different FMQs from commentator Hamish McDonnell.If that was an improved performance from Mr.I.Gray what is he normally like? He and his party sat ashen when they weren't yahooing and banging their desks. Any of the other leaders could have humiliated him with ease and yet it appeared that they couldn't be bothered. With regard to his being "liberated"; looked more like petrified; that bunny in the headlights look.
Can't see the double act of Bella and Tavish coming to much, a bit of an intellectual disparity there.
The First Minister still a league above the rest but more definitive answers might help and lets do away with all the background rowdyism -its not Westminster for goodness sake.
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36. eye_write
"What's the point in taking offense at my raising the salient point..."
The whole point is that you haven't made any point. You are criticising nationalist posters for something you have imagined. As evidenced by the fact that you are never quite able to identify instances of the "nat ranting" you persist in banging on about.
You have yet to produce one valid criticism or a single constructive suggestion. Your only purpose in posting, aside from denigrating nationalists, appears to be an irrepressible urge to proclaim your own genius.
It is a familiar tactic. Feigning support for the nationalist cause while trying to give the impression of dissent and unsavoury elements among nationalist supporters. I'm on to you. And I suspect I'm not alone.
For the avoidance of doubt and for the benefit of any who may have fallen for your little ploy,
There is absolutely no racist/xenophobic element to the SNP's brand of civic nationalism.
Nobody in the SNP or among its supporters is in any doubt that the party's performance in the recent election was disappointing. Although they also recognise that it was far better than it might have been in the circumstances.
Nobody in the SNP or among its supporters is under the illusion that the SNP campaign was perfect. Not being motivated by irrational hatred, we simply recognise that it was not the unmitigated disaster unionists like to pretend it was.
Henceforth I will regard you as a troll and treat your posts accordingly.
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I salient question is: by the Holyrood election, how many LibDems will be left in Scotland?
How many will actually put up with this alliance with a party against which they have spent their life fighting and whose policies they despise?
I have yet to see a single LibDem post a defence on this blog. (Perhaps I missed one) I suspect that they threw the Scottish branch of the LibDems to the dogs just as they did most of their policies, including REAL electoral reform.
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58. GrannieAnne
"Raaar!" LOL
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12. Jim Stevens
"I do detect a concern, even amongst those who don't wish the SNP ill, that they are becoming more and more of a one man band."
No you don't. What you detect is a pathetic effort by the British Labour Party's amateur propagandists to create the impression that there is such "concern". More honest observers recognise (a) that the SNP is definitely not short of excellent communicators, ie Nicola Sturgeon, Angus Robertson, Stuart Hosie etc., all of whom are deployed to good effect as required.
And (b) that Alex Salmond is by far the most effective communicator of the lot. So it is hardly surprising that the SNP would deploy him most of all.
Neither is it surprising that ideological unionists would prefer that the SNP did not deploy Salmond so often. I'm sure they would much rather the SNP were reduced to trying to convey their message through someone with the paucity of communication skills possessed by basic building materials - or even Ian Gray.
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LibDems had a commitment to reducing class sizes (for the poorest children) in their manifesto which has apparently made it into the coalition agenda.
So LibDems MSPs to give support to SNP attempts to reduce class sizes?
LibDem manifesto (English/Welsh version) supported introducing minimum pricing of alcohol in principle.
So LibDems MSPs to give support to SNP Bill to introduce minimum pricing of alcohol or continuing opposing it?
Or are their Scottish LibDem MPs going to vote against such a measure if introduced in Westminster because it was not in the Scottish version of their manifesto?
Yime to start chalenging them on these issues in Holyrood also abolition of Scottish Office.
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12. Jim Stevens
"I do detect a concern, even amongst those who don't wish the SNP ill, that they are becoming more and more of a one man band. An endless diet of Alex will prove counter productive so I can't wait for him to continue to hog the show in the coming year."
How dare he actually SPEAK at the First Minister's Questions. After all--he is First Minister of Scotland. Tsk. HOW inappropriate. Aye. Riiiight.
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60. Auld Bob
He was being reasonable Auld Bob. You should try it, instead of bolting straight down his throat, embarrassing us/Scots and making any SNP/nationalist waverers run a mile. Clap, clap.
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#36. At 4:19pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
Oh! Get real. I'm not even going to go answer you point by point. In the first place YOU are the one instigating the thinly disgiused internecine attacks upon those not in agreement with your personal views. It was not hard for anyone to identify who you drew a bead on. The facts are that the retorts you are getting are well directed and not, as yours are, thinly veiled. They are, too, defence against attack. So yes I do take it as a pesonal attack. Just who do you think you are to attempt to mute anyone's freedom of speech? If such are the nationalist become then I want nothing to do with them - except I know better. There are few like you. Note I make no attempt to silence you. Now let me make this quite clear for you - I will never attack the people of any country, including my own, for the doings of either a government or a political party. I will, though, slam an individual that attacks me, my country, my race, or even my enemy, as a race, religion, country or party.
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60. Auld Bob
"freedom of speech" has consequences, as most adults know, Auld Bob.
Raving lunatics sound like raving lunatics and reasonable people sound reasonable.
It's a shocker isn't it.
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67. GrannieAnne and Auld Bob (I quite like the ring of that..."I take thee..." ;-)
One cannot accept help nor criticism?
Perhaps one 'knows it all'.
How wonderful. (How to be a blowhard, LOL)
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57. calmac12000
"I find myself able only to explain these actions by suggesting that distrust and baiting of the SNP is of greater concern to Labour than opposing the Conservatives."
One very important point which rather distressed some members of the SNP--in order to keep out the Tories, the SNP was willing to go into an alliance with NO concessions on independence.
Looking at this fact underlines the basic betrayal in the Labour actions. The sad fact is that all of Scotland (and the UK) are going to pay the price.
It is over and done. Time to move on. But that does NOT mean that it is forgotten. (I admit that I would have never have voted Labour anyway, but I have on occasion voted LibDem. Never again!)
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#13 Online Ed
"One wonders what collective term might be used to describe those Scottish Labour politician who rejected out of hand the SNP offer to prevent a Tory government."
A cop-out of fowls, perhaps?
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69. Electric Hermit
He shouted, LOL.
I'll remember you... ;-)
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68. kailyard
"ets do away with all the background rowdyism -its not Westminster for goodness sake.
"
Yes!
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72. Electric Hermit
"No you don't Jim, you've been fooled again. Tut, tut. Here's why you got it wrong. Try not to be such a dum-dum in future..." LOL
It's a fantastic technique!
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68. kailyard
"If that was an improved performance from Mr.I.Gray what is he normally like?"
Imagine a talking plank.
Now imagine the plank is not as clever as your average plank.
You're almost there.
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74. GrannieAnne
Jim of course can have no 'concern', he is a Labour supporter, and must be ridiculed and treated with as much contempt, and forceful disdain as possible. No manners for him!
Wonderful skill you have there!
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#60 Auld Bob
You overlooked that I was quoting another contribution and simply confirmed my agreement with the sentiments expressed.
I am afraid that your language and personal attack confirms my impression that the standard of posts in this and recent blogs is not much beyond the level of invective,
I shall leave you and others who are happy with this to your devices. You shall not be hearing from me again. I shall be campaigning elsewhere with positive messages for an independent Scotland
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79. GrannieAnne
"I have on occasion voted LibDem. Never again!"
I have only ever voted SNP, after considering it every time of course.
But, no, apparently I am the troll. Yes, I am dealing with very clever people....
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#20 DrK
"Perhaps a more sensible approach would be to discuss how best to implement cuts that are necessary across the UK rather than trying to deny they are happening or blaming eveyr cut on "anti-scottishness" from Westminster..."
Which, if we watched the same edition of FMQs, is exactly where the FM sought common ground with dour Iain Gray. Why do you think Mr Gray was unable to rise to the challenge?
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#19. At 3:04pm on 13 May 2010, hamish42 wrote:
FMQs
We didn't get any real explanation as to why these people were being paid off, only a comment that the NHS budget was actually being increased. I assume there must be a good reason? Efficiency savings perhaps, which would be quite legitimate?
Nope! It decidedly is Glasgow Health Board making the cuts. I cut & paste a quote, "NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde (GGC) said an investment programme in its hospitals meant it could provide the same standard of care with less staff.
It said there would be no compulsory redundancies and the cut would be achieved through natural wastage".
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#23 Reluctant-Expat
"The nationalists have unanimously decided that Salmond again won this FMQs as he has won every single one of them ever."
As you well know, R-E, I'm not a nat, and I hereby confess that I have not seen them all, but I'd be most interested in your reasoned treatise of all the ones which the FM has "lost".
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78. eye_write
"One cannot accept help nor criticism?
Perhaps one 'knows it all'.
How wonderful. (How to be a blowhard, LOL)"
And one of us is much given to ad hominem attacks.
Do you really think that you have the right to tell everyone else how to post? I assure you that 1. you do not and 2. I am old enough that I don't really care whether someone on a blog doesn't like me. It won't affect how I post one way or the other.
I have to agree with GrassyKnollington. You seem quite overwrought.
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I have a question I'm hoping all you educated peeps can answer.
1) 1200 cuts in Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS are pretty large with "apparently" half of these being nurses and midwives. These are going to have a huge impact. What are the other cuts across Scotland? Are there any or is it just Glasgow??
2) Alex Salmond recently said that only the SNP can protect Scotland against cuts. Are these not frontline cuts in Scotland which are dictated by the Scottish Government? How is he planning to protect us from these when the Scottish Government is creating them?
I have said before on here that although I don't like Alex Salmond and the idea of Independance I do think the SNP have some good policies and have potential to show Scotland they can make a difference. I also accept that cuts in the public sector are inevitable after year of Labour feathering their own nests. However, I find it hard to understand how the Scottish Government is going to protect us from cuts when they are making drastic frontline cuts like this?
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It would now appear that Grays rantings at FMQs have now been shown to be the ravings of the uninformed.
Brian, your very own BBC website has now confirmed that the cuts will be through natural wastage with no compulsory redundancies. This is due to further investment by the Government (Scottish) to make the place more efficient.
Embarrassing or what for Gray.
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69. Electric Hermit
"There is absolutely no racist/xenophobic element to the SNP's brand of civic nationalism.
Nobody in the SNP or among its supporters is in any doubt that the party's performance in the recent election was disappointing. Although they also recognise that it was far better than it might have been in the circumstances.
Nobody in the SNP or among its supporters is under the illusion that the SNP campaign was perfect. Not being motivated by irrational hatred, we simply recognise that it was not the unmitigated disaster unionists like to pretend it was.
"
Some good points, disposing of quite a number of comments on today's blog.
It is time to move on. The Westminster election was what it was. I would have loved better results but given the situation, I didn't expect better and feared worse.
There us another and for me a more important election ahead. An examination of the FMQ questions, an intelligent one and not one consisting of who made a joke, might be telling in figuring out how that election is going to be fought.
Let's not kid ourselves. This is going to be a very hard fight. Holding on to control of Holyrood is a long way from a given and what we must do is increase our numbers and not merely hold on. What's more, many of us thought that an alliance with the LibDems next time might be a possibility. I fear that possibility has disappeared because I do not think that the leaders of the UK-wide LibDem will allow a compromise on a referendum.
We must remember--they support referenda for everyone EXCEPT the Scots.
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76. Auld Bob
"I will, though, slam an individual that attacks me, my country, my race, or even my enemy, as a race, religion, country or party"
Yes, and that's why you will never increase support for the SNP but rather decrease it. If I'm not the future of the SNP (who cares how it goes in the years ahead, rather than living a moment of satisfaction at a time in the counterproductive rant style - the public are taking the mick out of you!), then it has no future, and you know it.
If you don't, I think you should step back, go online, go on facebook, go out to the shops, and observe, take a deep breath and assess what you see. If you see the ranting nat image going down well with Joe Public, then see your optician. If you see it as a badge of national embarrassment and ridicule, holding us back, then there is hope for you.
You say your loyalty is with the future of Scotland. Is it? Or is it with your own bruises from years ago. You sound like the bullied boy who has never, and will never, forget it. Forget it!
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@89 "Nope! It decidedly is Glasgow Health Board making the cuts. I cut & paste a quote, "NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde (GGC) said an investment programme in its hospitals meant it could provide the same standard of care with less staff.
It said there would be no compulsory redundancies and the cut would be achieved through natural wastage"."
Rather disappointing the FM didn't know that, if so. He's usually got an excellent command of the facts.
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#23. At 3:35pm on 13 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
1 - "Shocker".
It sure is a shocker - there was Gray, usual folder in hand, shouting at the First minister that the SNP were responsible for the cuts in jobs made by, "The Glasgow & Clyde Health Board".
This is what that Labour Run Health Board has to say,
"NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde (GGC) said an investment programme in its hospitals meant it could provide the same standard of care with less staff. It said there would be no compulsory redundancies and the cut would be achieved through natural wastage".
And Alex Salmond said the funding from the Scottish Government was substantially increased from what Labour at Holyrood had provided.
2 - The nationalists have unanimously decided that Salmond again won this FMQs as he has won every single one of them ever. The nationalists have unanimously decided that Salmond again won this FMQs as he has won every single one of them ever.
Oh! Dear! Here is me desagreeing with those unanimously agreed Nationalists - I don't think Salmond won - I think Gray lost.
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91. GrannieAnne
"I don't really care whether someone on a blog doesn't like me."
Oops, you should. They are potential SNP voters. Dear (old).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I have just listened to first ministers questions on the iplayer and I have to say that Anabelle Goldie's retort about the Clegg Bite was really funny, what made it funny for me is that it was a retort (made up on the spot), where as Ian Grey's joke (can we call it that) was practiced before hand and then presented, he would never think up something witty on the spot to retort to the first minister unless he was passed it from a college.
Does anyone disagree?????
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#25 Alan
"They said they would prefer a Tory Government to working with the SNP. Very understandable. Touchy things, minorities."
There's a shock, from a UKIP supporter. I'm more surprised that you're not ranting on about the waste of resources caused by the late NuLab's asymmetric devolution. Were you to do so, you'd have more support here, at least over the asymmetric nature of it, if not your party's preferred solution.
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73. cwh
"So LibDems MSPs to give support to SNP Bill to introduce minimum pricing of alcohol or continuing opposing it? "
It's all nonsense, isn't it? We have a ToryLibDem in the viceroy's mansion supporting minimum pricing and ToryLibDems at Holyrood opposing it.
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87. eye_write
""I have on occasion voted LibDem. Never again!"
I have only ever voted SNP, after considering it every time of course.
But, no, apparently I am the troll. Yes, I am dealing with very clever people...."
Please point out where I called you a troll eveb though you have regularly attacked my right to express my opinions as I see fit.
You might want to consider who it is who may be turning possible voters off by a lack of moderation in the tone of their comments.
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92. SuperG
"Alex Salmond recently said that only the SNP can protect Scotland against cuts. Are these not frontline cuts in Scotland which are dictated by the Scottish Government? How is he planning to protect us from these when the Scottish Government is creating them?"
Would you care to link to someplace where Alex Salmond EVER said he could protect Scotland against all cuts?
I would love to see such a quote.
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98. eye_write
"Oops, you should. They are potential SNP voters. Dear (old)."
You sound like a 6th form girl worrying about whether she will be popular with the in-clique. 'Oh, dear, if I tell the truth they won't like me.'
There will ALWAYS be people who do not like you or me or anyone else. It is adult to accept that. If you think that attacking fellow nationalists is going to win votes, think again. It does nothing but weaken the nationalist cause.
Labour has lied to achieve votes. The Liberal Democrats have lied to achieve votes. I will not join them.
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Snp did not get the 20 seats because the likes of me voted Labour to keep the Tories out as Ian Gray advised me at the time. Dead loss as Labour chickened out when they had the chance, they would rather a Tory goverment
than going in with snp, they are putting there party before the country.
I watched FMQ and it is easily seen you are a Labour party supporter instead of being neutral which I find to be very sad as I always liked listening to you
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22 & 28 Rev_S_Campbell
destroyers of the progressive alliance
Douglas Alexander MP (Paisley And Renfrewshire South)
Brian Donohoe MP (Central Ayrshire)
Jim Murphy MP (East Renfrewshire)
Margaret Curran MP (Glasgow East)
Tom Harris MP (Glasgow South)
John Reid
Johann Lamont MSP
Iain Grey MSP
Jack McConnell MSP
Lord Foulkes Of Cumnock MSP (and House Of Lords)
Can you look at my recent posts. I think that I would qualify for this list. Please add my name and update your post forthwith!!
Electric Hermit
you refer to me as one of "the British Labour Party's amateur propagandists"
This is the sort of jibe that you and your friends posted when I told you weeks ago that Jim Murphy and Russell Brown would hold their seats easily. I did indeed profit from this and am currently extending my book and CD library.
49. clachangowk London Rule
I've prospered with the Union and I'm totally dedicated to maintaining London Rule. I'm proud to be a Unionist and fully expect to die as a citizen of the British state.
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#40. At 4:23pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"Auld Bob, (from last thread) with all your trillions of years working with fifteen computers at a time,
Don't exagerate.
why can you not put spaces in between quotes and paragraphs"?
Ever though that in a system where two, or more, computers are in communication with each other there are two, or more, sets of formating going on. The sender posts what is formatted on his/her screen. The computer encodes the message and sends it out. Other computers receive that coded message and uncodes it and formats it for its screen. Remember also that MODEM stands for Modulator/demodulator.
Then there is the fact that the user can set properties.
Consider why you think it me, or my computer, are to blame for what is formatted on your screen?
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100. loveme2times
"I have just listened to first ministers questions on the iplayer and I have to say that Anabelle Goldie's retort about the Clegg Bite was really funny, what made it funny for me is that it was a retort (made up on the spot), where as Ian Grey's joke (can we call it that) was practiced before hand and then presented, he would never think up something witty on the spot to retort to the first minister unless he was passed it from a college.
Does anyone disagree?????"
I can't speak for anyone else, but I can't disagree. Annabel Goldie has been an asset to the Tories and is responsible in large part (in my opinion) for why they have done as well as they have. She has a sharp wit at times (although there have been times when it has let her down as well).
She comes the closest of anyone in Holyrood for being able to give Alex Salmond as good as he gives. There have been a few times when she has gotten the better of him.
I agree that obviously Iain Gray's 'joke' was practiced. The ones he doesn't practice are even worse! Hers did seem to be off-the-cuff and was pretty good. I did chuckle. Admittedly there have been a number of jokes going around about cleg bites so maybe she had that saved to get in when she could, but she does 'biting' humour quite well.
Oh, dear. Now eye-write is going to attack me for having admired a Tory in addition to having at some point voted LibDem. Does that make me doubly a troll? *chuckles*
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92. SuperG
"1) 1200 cuts in Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS are pretty large with "apparently" half of these being nurses and midwives. These are going to have a huge impact. What are the other cuts across Scotland? Are there any or is it just Glasgow??"
Not so large when you consider the reductions will be achieved through natural wastage.
"2) Alex Salmond recently said that only the SNP can protect Scotland against cuts. Are these not frontline cuts in Scotland which are dictated by the Scottish Government? How is he planning to protect us from these when the Scottish Government is creating them?"
Contrary to the unionist propaganda Alex Salmond never said nor implied that Scotland could avoid the impact of cuts entirely. It is a matter of the priorities and who decides on them.
The Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS cuts are just that. Cost savings identified by the NHS which they claim can be made without adversely affecting front-line services. And that is what the SNP vowed to protect.
Bearing in mind that the NHS proposals have not yet been approved it has to be said that Gray's position on this is as confused as his arguments. On the one hand he accuses the SNP of being unrealistic and not accepting or admitting the need for cuts, the he starts complaining when the Scottish Government orders studies such as this to identify where savings can be made.
And never forget that Gray and his party are in favour of continuing to squander billions of WMD, useless ID card schemes and the redundant Scotland Office. Hypocrites!
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From pervious post: 313. At 1:57pm on 13 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
289. Sheneval
"The term 'Champions' reminded me of the "Pure Dead Brilliant" slogan at Prestwick Airport. "
"It "reminded" you by being entirely different?"
I'm afraid not - I thought it was like something out of the same stable, a bit crass.
"There are one or two unionist posters being a bit silly about this in a rather pathetic effort to portray the SNP campaign as a total disaster."
I haven't read all the posts here so I can't say I've noticed anyone unionist, or otherwise particularly trying to portray the SNP campaign as a total disaster.
"Which is why professionals in the field take a detached view of some things."
I note your opinion - all I would say is that sometimes the professionals you speak about are often not as expert as they would like to think.
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93. Ffinn
"Embarrassing or what for Gray."
If the buffoon was capable of embarrassment he would never appear in public.
Note too how the British Labour Party's friends at the Torygraph bend the facts in order to support this latest piece of dishonesty. With a little journalistic sleight of hand they manage to get a massively inflated figure into the headline.
Up to 5,000 Scottish NHS jobs face axe - Telegraph
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
94. GrannieAnne
"There us another and for me a more important election ahead. An examination of the FMQ questions, an intelligent one and not one consisting of who made a joke, might be telling in figuring out how that election is going to be fought."
It is more than a little disappointing that analysis of Gray's allegations is to be found in the comments section rather in the bit that is written by BBC Scotland's political editor.
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#68. At 5:18pm on 13 May 2010, kailyard wrote:
"A new chiel here, don't see much telly, managed to see FMQs. Can't understand it, must have been watching a different FMQs from commentator Hamish McDonnell.If that was an improved performance from Mr.I.Gray what is he normally like? He and his party sat ashen when they weren't yahooing and banging their desks. Any of the other leaders could have humiliated him with ease and yet it appeared that they couldn't be bothered. With regard to his being "liberated"; looked more like petrified; that bunny in the headlights look.
Can't see the double act of Bella and Tavish coming to much, a bit of an intellectual disparity there.
The First Minister still a league above the rest but more definitive answers might help and lets do away with all the background rowdyism -its not Westminster for goodness sake."
Ah! You noticed Alex deleberate failure to make a big deal. He had no need to do anything other than point out the Scottish Government had increased the Health Board's funding above that of Labour when in office. You see an increase in funds does not add up to cuts in service. Not only that but it was the Labour led Glasgow and Clyde Health Board making the cuts. They had made a statement that started, "NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde (GGC) said an investment programme in its hospitals meant it could provide the same standard of care with less staff.
It said there would be no compulsory redundancies and the cut would be achieved through natural wastage".
So it was just another shot in Gray's foot.
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Jim Stevens @ 108
I thought you were actually a subject of HMQ Brenda rather than a citizen.
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108. Jim Stevens
"Can you look at my recent posts. I think that I would qualify for this list. Please add my name and update your post forthwith!!
Electric Hermit
you refer to me as one of "the British Labour Party's amateur propagandists"
This is the sort of jibe that you and your friends posted when I told you weeks ago that Jim Murphy and Russell Brown would hold their seats easily. I did indeed profit from this and am currently extending my book and CD library.
49. clachangowk London Rule
I've prospered with the Union and I'm totally dedicated to maintaining London Rule. I'm proud to be a Unionist and fully expect to die as a citizen of the British state. "
I hate to mention this, but you're not important enough to make a list. As far as Jim Murphy holding his seat, I seem to recall his main opponent was a Tory. Are you mistaking anyone here for a Tory supporter? *chuckles*
I did see some people here debate which would be more amusing, seeing him lose his seat or seeing him lose his position as Scottish raj and move to the opposition backbench.
At least you're upfront about not considering yourself a Scot. I will give you that.
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100. loveme2times
"...Anabelle Goldie's retort about the Clegg Bite was really funny..."
Not so amusing, perhaps, when you realise that what she was actually saying was that we shouldn't trust anything she says.
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#77. At 5:38pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"freedom of speech" has consequences, as most adults know, Auld Bob.
Raving lunatics sound like raving lunatics and reasonable people sound reasonable. It's a shocker isn't it.
Indeed it is - so why do you do it, when you know how much it makes you seem a raving Loony? Tell you something - you are certainly NOT a reasonable person. Did you really expect that you could start acting like an extra moderator, telling people what they could or could not post, and be considered reasonable?
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37. At 4:20pm on 13 May 2010, Barbazenzero wrote:
#11 Online Ed
"Newsnet Scotland"
Many thanks for that link, Ed. An excellent article by Kenneth Roy, although I have to agree with much of what Clare has to say in the third comment, despite her apparent confusion between Liberalism and anything that Clegg might have to say.
_______________________________________________
I'm sure others have commented but that is the best Kenneth Roy article I have read for some time. Heartfelt, eloquent and in the end upbeat - excellent.
Clare's comment too was excellent.
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108. Jim Stevens
"Can you look at my recent posts. I think that I would qualify for this list. Please add my name and update your post forthwith!!"
Are you claiming that you are in a position to exert meaningful influence over the decisions made by the British Labour Party?
Or have you just made a fool of yourself again?
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112. Sheneval
"I haven't read all the posts here so I can't say I've noticed anyone unionist, or otherwise particularly trying to portray the SNP campaign as a total disaster."
I would say then that you haven't read many of the posts. There have been quite a lot of them (yours included--perhaps you didn't read your own posts?) saying that the SNP campaign was a disaster.
It wasn't. Was the slogan perfect? No doubt not. It was certainly better than "A Fair Britain for All" (was that it? It was forgotten as soon as Labour could manage) or whatever the LibDem mishmash was. Does anyone remember it?
Such things rarely win or lose elections.
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108. Jim Stevens
"you refer to me as one of "the British Labour Party's amateur propagandists" "
And I am evidently not wrong to do so.
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Ah the BBC Scotland love in with Labour continues, first this skewed version of First Ministers Questions which was nothing like how Mr Taylor reports it, Gray as usual was wooden and negative in all aspects, to quote Ms Curran "he is constantly trying to undermine the government etc...", then later I heard a report on Gordon Brown who according to the reporter is the Prime Minister, sorry to burst your balloon but he is no longer, but the interview was such a fawning Gordon is great piece that it was cringeworthy.
It seems the BBC in England are glad to see the back of Brown but here in Scotland they seem keen to keep the red flag flying.
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112. Sheneval
"...all I would say is that sometimes the professionals you speak about are often not as expert as they would like to think."
Is it "sometimes"? Or is it "often"?
I've never been very impressed by the argument that experts must be wrong just because they are "experts".
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The following comment probably typifies this blog and the rampant fear of free speech.
Comment number 11 has been referred to the mods - "so what" most will say. Well, it isn't the fact that it was referred but rather the idiocy that probably led to its referral.
The comment contained the following phrase:
The place to be
This was followed by a link [Newsnet Scotland] to a Newsnet Scotland article of the same name, authored by respected journalist Kenneth Roy.
The thing is, some fool has obviously misinterpretted the comment as a message urging people that the place to be is Newsnet Scotland.
That the mods actually removed it without even checking what it was is quite sad.
Anyway, here's another excellent article from the aforementioned Mr Roy.
Where do we go from here?
Newsnet Scotland
No. it isn't a message.
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#92 SuperG
"However, I find it hard to understand how the Scottish Government is going to protect us from cuts when they are making drastic frontline cuts like this?"
If you have any open-mindedness at all, you'll read the Torygraph's Up to 5,000 Scottish NHS jobs face axe in full. They can hardly be accused of pro-SNP bias, but even they admit:
But a spokesman for NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde confirmed they “anticipate” having to follow through with the cuts. “By redesigning our services, including a move for some services onto fewer sites, we have identified that we can provide the same high quality care for our patients with fewer staff – 700 (fewer) in 2010-11 year, rising to 1,252 over 18 months,” he said.
So the problem was?
You might also care to note that this information is not currently available in the Media Centre of NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, an authority controlled by - you guessed it - "Scottish" Labour.
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92. SuperG
"1200 cuts in Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS are pretty large"
Even most uneducated "peeps" can read.
This is what this site reports on the staffing reduction
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8681032.stm
"Scotland's largest health board has confirmed that it plans to cut its staffing by 1,252 by 2013.
NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde (GGC) said an investment programme in its hospitals meant it could provide the same standard of care with less staff.
It said there would be no compulsory redundancies and the cut would be achieved through natural wastage."
I'm not an expert in the details of service provision in the NHS. While the RCN will know more than I do, they are a body which represents nurses, and are probably not dispassionate observers.
On the surface, Glasgow NHS's arguments seem to be justifiable - in a context where financial growth for the NHS will inevitably be small at best. Are they in fact? I don't know, and neither do you. However, the Scottish Government did not make that decision. Their job is to oversee the system and to fund it from the resources they get from Westminster.
Had it been a Government decision, then this staffing reduction would have been applied across all of Scotland.
Now, I understand that all political parties try to use news items like this to try to gain political advantage. However, one of the fundamental differences between Labour and other parties is that your side believes in micro managing public services from St Andrew's House/Whitehall.
Most people in Scotland share the set of values that can be loosely described as "social justice". Presumably you are saying that Glasgow & Clyde should not have rationalised their facilities, to allow them to "provide the same high quality care for our patients with fewer staff". They should just have kept the same inefficient systems in place?
Before posting, you should also have considered that - when you look at the origins of many NHS staff - Glasgow & Clyde may simply have been implementing the former PM's call for "British Jobs for British Workers".
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Eck accused Fudd of ducking responsibility for Labour’s cuts and reminded him that, during the election, his party claimed a vote for them would offer protection from a Conservative government at Westminster. But voting Labour had given Scotland a Tory government (appropriate, timely, humorous cheers from the Tories). Eck accused Labour of “ducking the opportunity to form an anti-Tory government”, and asked Elmer how he could then come to the chamber and complain about the Tory cuts to come.
A good sketch and analysis of the FMQ by Rab McNeil at the Caledonia Mercury. Don't think Scotland is going to forget what Labour did any time soon.
Negative comment? You bet!
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114. GrannieAnne
I'll try again although my post was shorn of any obscenities already.
95. eye_write
"If you don't, I think you should step back, go online, go on facebook, go out to the shops, and observe, take a deep breath and assess what you see. If you see the ranting nat image going down well with Joe Public, then see your optician."
Yes, complaints about "nationalist rants" from the same people who rant on and on about "fried-mars-bars-eating sponging jocks".
The same people who attack nationalist bloggers while calling the FM a "word I can't even refer to masked" and various other obscenities... where? On facebook, where we are supposed to learn how horrible we are, as well as at a certain well-remembered (by some of us) awards programme.
Maybe you should re-think who the enemy is, eye-write.
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108. Jim Stevens
"I've prospered with the Union"
That's an interesting comment. Care to expand on how the existence of the UK Union specifically allowed you to prosper - as opposed to your having prospered during the time that the UK Union existed (I'm assuming that you aren't making a comparison with your personal poverty pre 1707!)
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What power the Scottish parliament would have if the two largest partys could work together..a SNP Labour coalition .....I can dream...I say it again what power.
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127. Online Ed
"This was followed by a link [Newsnet Scotland] to a Newsnet Scotland article of the same name, authored by respected journalist Kenneth Roy.
"
I have never before had such an article bring tears to my eyes. Thank you for linking to it.
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#108 Jim Stevens
"Can you look at my recent posts. I think that I would qualify for this list. Please add my name and update your post forthwith!!"
Whilst admiring nothing else about your post, I have to admit you deserve 10/10 for honesty.
Your conern for party over nation is amply demonstrated by your:
"The SNP's election campaign was wholly cynical and bogus and I see no prospect of a stable government with the Nats and the Lib Dems on board. We should heed the message of the electorate and go into opposition and regroup. Otherwise the Labour party and the Union will pay a heavy price."
What drives you to think so little of your nation?
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Rubbish Brian! the best gag on offer was definitely Auntie Bella's.
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#75. At 5:36pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"He was being reasonable Auld Bob. You should try it, instead of bolting straight down his throat, embarrassing us/Scots and making any SNP/nationalist waverers run a mile. Clap, clap".
So now you have the sheer temerity to assume to speak for all Scotland? The embarrassment is all your own. You started to attack people posting on the blog for reasons best known to yourself. You have made crass accusations against several, including myself, and the supposed fault remains in your mind only. I have never, in my entire life, been guilty of sweeping gereralisation against any nation, country, religion, ethnic group or people's sexual orientation. Yet you have accused me of doing so. When are you going to produce your evidence that I have? I will, though attack those who are bullies, political parties that are selective in who they legislate against and systems that harm others. I will do so against indiviuals who do so too. I will not, though, blame a whole country, group or party for the sins of a few. Now tell me why you find it so compelling a matter as to claim, or even imply that I do, or have?
Let us see your evidence that your claims are true and just?
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"Today Mr Gray had the best gag on offer:"
Shame he didn't wrap it around his gub!
"These were not, he said, Labour cuts or Tory cuts or Liberal Democrat cuts. They were to be laid at the door of Alex Salmond and his Health Secretary, Nicola Sturgeon."
Let's be realistic Brian, these are part of cuts that will be forced upon Scotland by Labour's negligence and mismanagement of the UK economy, something which we will all be paying for for many years, how quickly Mr Gray becomes a sloppy shouldered Teflon Man.
"Now, that does not mean that Mr Gray has complete justice on his side. Merely that he no longer has to look over his shoulder when launching his oppositional attacks."
Somehow I think Mr Gray will continue to be looking over his shoulder to see which of his comrades has the ice pick ready for his dispatch.
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125. At 6:56pm on 13 May 2010, peteraberdeenshire wrote:
Ah the BBC Scotland love in with Labour continues, first this skewed version of First Ministers Questions which was nothing like how Mr Taylor reports it...............
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter be careful what you type,
this evening I have had two posts one which questioned the political stance of the BBC bloggers and highlighted the "alleged" integrity of some glasgow based labour officials "referred to the moderator" despite the content being quite tame and which did not contain anything which was not already in the public domanin.
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130. GrannieAnne
"Negative comment? You bet! "
Even better, from Rab
"I couldn’t hear the rest for the Labour hysteria. Karen Whitefield never gave it a second’s rest, endlessly ululating tripe about the cuts being caused by Eck. As I’ve said before, Karen has the voice of a six-year-old, but the intellect of someone half that age, and yesterday her piercing yowls grated like a fingernail down a blackboard. Foreign visitors, in the dignitaries’ gallery next to the press, looked on aghast and bewildered.
It’s shaming.
It’s embarrassing."
There's nothing wrong with negativity - but it's even better when we can quote it from the meeja!
There is a difference btw between those who choose to use the blog simply to state their views, regardless of the effect on the undecided/persuadable readers, and those who prefer to act politically - in recognising how language appropriate within a closed community can be misconstrued, and misrepresented on a public forum.
Everyone makes their own choice, however.
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136. snowthistle
Brian has long been known to wear Red Tinted Glasses,
The quality of Elmer Fudds heckling has slipped downward of late, unfortunately he isn't too good at political point scoring so resorts to Playground style taunts.
He's worse than Wendy Alexander.
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137. Auld Bob
"So now you have the sheer temerity to assume to speak for all Scotland?"
I really do think it is time to start ignoring the troll. It has had ample opportunity to develop some kind of reasoned argument and/or produce some evidence to support the ludicrous generalised accusations. Nothing!
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#78. At 5:43pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
67. GrannieAnne and Auld Bob (I quite like the ring of that..."I take thee..." ;-) One cannot accept help nor criticism?
Perhaps one 'knows it all'.
How wonderful. (How to be a blowhard, LOL)
Listen to yourself! Take a little time and think about it! Re-read what you have just posted. Then note you did not criticize, you accused. Worse than that you accused falsley and with malice. Then you have carried the matter over into several different blogs. You are like a terrier with a stolen bone that you will not give up. You are damaging the nationalists cause and I will no longer allow you to do so.
That's it done - you are now being ignored.
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Another comment from Rab that probably deserves greater emphasis -
"Labour, incidentally, never barrack the Tories."
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#130 GrannieAnne
Many thanks for the heads-up to Rab's excellent Shame, embarrassment and business as usual - considerably more accurate re today's FMQs than Brian's account above and, as aways, entertaining reading.
I think I have spotted dour Iain's mistake in Rab's: "Fudd said that, if Eck could stand to read the Scottish press – the equivalent of Gandhi eating a beefburger – he’d have learned about redundancies in the NHS."
The problem for Mr Gray, of course, would have been that the Scottish press would have neglected to mention who was proposing the "cuts" or why. Not that I feel any sympathy for Mr Gray's lack of research.
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#92. At 6:04pm on 13 May 2010, SuperG wrote:
I have a question I'm hoping all you educated peeps can answer.
1) 1200 cuts in Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS are pretty large with "apparently" half of these being nurses and midwives. These are going to have a huge impact. What are the other cuts across Scotland? Are there any or is it just Glasgow??
2) Alex Salmond recently said that only the SNP can protect Scotland against cuts. Are these not frontline cuts in Scotland which are dictated by the Scottish Government? How is he planning to protect us from these when the Scottish Government is creating them?
I have said before on here that although I don't like Alex Salmond and the idea of Independance I do think the SNP have some good policies and have potential to show Scotland they can make a difference. I also accept that cuts in the public sector are inevitable after year of Labour feathering their own nests. However, I find it hard to understand how the Scottish Government is going to protect us from cuts when they are making drastic frontline cuts like this?
I'm not especially well educated but I will try and answer your concerns. The cuts are nothing whatsoever to do with the Scottish Parliament. As Mr Salmond told Iain Gray - The funding to Glasgow & Clyde Health Board was increased above the level of what Labour, in office, had granted them. The cuts are made by Glasgow & Clyde Health Board only and they have mainly Labour members. They issued a press release that begins,
"NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde (GGC) said an investment programme in its hospitals meant it could provide the same standard of care with less staff.
It said there would be no compulsory redundancies and the cut would be achieved through natural wastage".
You will find the statement here -"Health Board Statement"
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140. oldnat
"There is a difference btw between those who choose to use the blog simply to state their views, regardless of the effect on the undecided/persuadable readers, and those who prefer to act politically - in recognising how language appropriate within a closed community can be misconstrued, and misrepresented on a public forum.
Everyone makes their own choice, however."
No, Oldnat, I do not intend to keep my criticism of the Tories or the LibDems out of a public forum. If you chose to do so, as you say, that is your choice.
So you think that "to use the blog simply to state their [one assumes political] views" is an inappropriate thing to do on a political forum. So exactly what is one supposed to express?
Your views? Eye-write's views?
Thank you, but, no, thank you. If you find my views too unsanitised for your delicate eyes do feel free not to read them.
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139. At 7:42pm on 13 May 2010, cj8652 wrote
Peter be careful what you type,
Ah not to worry I too have had comments removed but I really dont care, if the BBC want to stifle free speech then so be it, its all the more reason to withold the licene fee when the time comes!!
I am surprised the mods allow Gray to be called Elmer Fudd...
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75. eye_write
"You should try it, instead of bolting straight down his throat, embarrassing us/Scots..."
Do NOT presume to speak for all Scots. You very specifically do not speak for me.
Someone's posts and behavior on this blog is embarrassing and it is not his.
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I thought the best gag was from Hamish McDonnell (minus his bowler hat and sash)in telling us Dour had upped his performance.
The way the Beeb wheel in rabid unionists week after week to tell us how fantastic Gray and labour are shows how desperate the establishment is.
A word of advice, Brian. Go on a wee holiday on Sunday as you will not be wanting to read the sports pages.
Up the Staggies.
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36. At 4:19pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
Wow what a sensible reasoned and well thought out reply to the attack on your comments. Not that it will make the slightest difference, throw the dogs a bone and they snap everytime.
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123. At 6:52pm on 13 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
"I would say then that you haven't read many of the posts. There have been quite a lot of them (yours included--perhaps you didn't read your own posts?) saying that the SNP campaign was a disaster."
Which of my posts said that? I don't think you read my post. I singled out one aspect of the campaign - I did not say that it was a disaster - I said that it was a turn off for me, I never mentioned other voters or the rest of the country.
"Such things rarely win or lose elections"
Nowhere did I say that it did.
However as in the past, I find you fail to address the issue/s raised in the posts, and put your own distorted interpretation on them, and it is pointless trying to have a debate with you about what after all are just opinions.
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142. Electric Hermit
"I really do think it is time to start ignoring the troll. It has had ample opportunity to develop some kind of reasoned argument and/or produce some evidence to support the ludicrous generalised accusations. Nothing!"
I have refused to refer to him/her as a troll, but the rants, accusations and ad hominem 'arguments' have gone past my tolerance. I have to agree at least that it is time to ignore this poster's comments.
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126. At 6:58pm on 13 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
"I've never been very impressed by the argument that experts must be wrong just because they are "experts"
No one said they 'must be wrong' - if you substitute they can often be wrong it would be a fairer interpretation of my post.
Perhaps your opinion is based on the fact that you consider yourself an expert, or it may be that you have not worked with many who considered themselves to be so. :-)
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152. Sheneval
Actually you went on at some length at how bad the SNP campaign was and how terms such as "champion", "balanced parliament" and "progressive alliance" were "patronising". I did wonder how using terms in common parlance in the language is patronising, but I didn't choose to argue the point. If anything, your comments were patronising.
You choose to ignore that the SNP HAS come up with policies to fight abuse--such as minimum pricing of alcohol. Would you care to excuse the Labour and LibDems fighting this in Scotland while espousing it in England?
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#138. At 7:41pm on 13 May 2010, InMyKip wrote:
"Let's be realistic Brian, these are part of cuts that will be forced upon Scotland by Labour's negligence and mismanagement of the UK economy, something which we will all be paying for for many years, how quickly Mr Gray becomes a sloppy shouldered Teflon Man".
Sorry but these cuts have nothing to do with the Scottish Government in any way. The former Labour Scottish Government made their Grant to Greater Glasgow & Clyde Health Board before the cuts. The present Scottish Government increased the grant. So it was All down to the Labour Health Board and no one else.
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116. At 6:44pm on 13 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
The First Minister still a league above the rest but more definitive answers might help and lets do away with all the background rowdyism -its not Westminster for goodness sake.
There is no doubt wee eck is a man of immense talent, a talent any party would be proud to have as part of their team. It is unfortuate for him that he is lumbered with the one man band party. He could have been something great, if only he was not so loyal to them. They had to bring him back from Westminster, to get them out of the hole John Swinney had dug. Eck, It's a shame to see such a great man being dragged down. You still have time to rethink before the 2011 elections, your country needs you, leave the baggage behind and move onto better and greater things.
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eye_write has a new fan-club and look who's rallied to her cause:
RE and Ron McArthur
So, much for strategy, tactics and presentation! I tried to warn her, but she was far too clever for this expendable, old duffer.
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158. albamac
"eye_write has a new fan-club and look who's rallied to her cause:
RE and Ron McArthur
So, much for strategy, tactics and presentation! I tried to warn her, but she was far too clever for this expendable, old duffer.
"
That says all that needs to be said, does it not?
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I have just read Brian Taylors blog:
WAKE UP ........You cannot go on now and let the Labour off the hook
Ian Gray sounds like a ham actor playing out a script.
New Labour did no better than the SNP when they were in power in Hollyrood. Any fool can see and now that New Labour's scheme is to allow the cuts to continue so that they can get in next time. Labour know that whoever took office may never get elected again for a generation just as the former head of the Bank of England has stated.
Where was the talk of Socialism in the election Ian Gray?
.......no doubt you'll stir up trouble, cause strikes, disrupt things just to sit in Westminster yet again.........
Ian Gray WANTS MARTYRS
At this rate it will be easy to control the Jocks - a case of divide and conquer?
Oh! and I'll bet you'll hear the cry of "Socialism" - but after young "New Labour" lookalikes are elected. Labour fool us all time and time again but just to get the cannon fodder excited - no more - no less....
Brian..............BBC Scotland needs to wake up too!!
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141. Grahame
"He's worse than Wendy Alexander."
Vicious!
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144. oldnat
""Labour, incidentally, never barrack the Tories.""
The Tories didn't facilitate their being kicked out of office.
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147. GrannieAnne
LOL!
I'm offended by very little these days - except the petulance of the Labour Party and the betrayal of all those who voted for them, and the triumph of the Orange Book LDs over the decent folk in that party.
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154. At 8:17pm on 13 May 2010, Sheneval wrote:
126. At 6:58pm on 13 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
"I've never been very impressed by the argument that experts must be wrong just because they are "experts"
It's the way they tell them. They cannot be wrong. Consider, for examlpe the Football expert. Before the match they can tell you who will win. After the match they can tell you why they didn't.
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157. Ron McArthur
"There is no doubt wee eck is a man of immense talent, a talent any party would be proud to have as part of their team. It is unfortuate for him that he is lumbered with the one man band party. He could have been something great, if only he was not so loyal to them. They had to bring him back from Westminster, to get them out of the hole John Swinney had dug. Eck, It's a shame to see such a great man being dragged down. You still have time to rethink before the 2011 elections, your country needs you, leave the baggage behind and move onto better and greater things."
And what country would that be?
So he is supposed to move on to "better and greater" things such as the LibDems or Labour... both of whom would prefer to serve Scotland to the Tories on a platter than work with another liberal-leaning party because of their own parochial blinders.
I suspect he will take "smaller and lesser" things than that. Things which are at least honest and do that shocking thing of putting Scotland and not Britain first.
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The multi-billion pounds deficit left by the outgoing Labour Government is a UK problem and the unavoidable cuts in public spending must be shared by all UK citizens. Does Alex Salmond and the other narrow minded nationalists, think they are better than their fellow British citizens in England ?
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154. Sheneval
"Perhaps your opinion is based on the fact that you consider yourself an expert, or it may be that you have not worked with many who considered themselves to be so. :-)"
Or it may be that I have seven legs and wings. What's your point?
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157. Ron McArthur
"It is unfortuate for him that he is lumbered with the one man band party."
I see the Tory/BLP amateur propagandists have adopted this as a theme. Orders from above, perhaps? But they do nothing other than put their own ignorance on display. They only know one name and assume everybody else is just as ignorant. A foolish mistake.
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#157. At 8:31pm on 13 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
116. At 6:44pm on 13 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
The First Minister still a league above the rest but more definitive answers might help and lets do away with all the background rowdyism -its not Westminster for goodness sake.
There is no doubt wee eck is a man of immense talent, a talent any party would be proud to have as part of their team. It is unfortuate for him that he is lumbered with the one man band party. He could have been something great, if only he was not so loyal to them. They had to bring him back from Westminster, to get them out of the hole John Swinney had dug. Eck, It's a shame to see such a great man being dragged down. You still have time to rethink before the 2011 elections, your country needs you, leave the baggage behind and move onto better and greater things.
Sigh - twaddle - and you know it.
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157. Ron McArthur
"He could have been something great, if only he was not so loyal to them."
What an honest man you are! Upthread you said you were a Unionist because you had personally prospered from it (though you failed to answer my question about the validity of that assumption).
Now you make the obvious point that Salmond could have achieved high office (in the UK) by becoming a machine politician, joining the Labour Party and betraying everything he believed in.
If anything demonstrated the shallow pursuit of personal advantage that the modern Labour Party embodies it is your comments.
Individual over community : Personal advantage over principle - these are your mantras. That you publicly proclaim these failures of morality is a good thing, however.
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#158. At 8:32pm on 13 May 2010, albamac wrote:
eye_write has a new fan-club and look who's rallied to her cause:
RE and Ron McArthur
So, much for strategy, tactics and presentation! I tried to warn her, but she was far too clever for this expendable, old duffer.
The thing to do with trolls is to give them a bit of rope. Then when they get to the orgasmic stage. Drop them plonk!
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157. Ron McArthur
"Eck, It's a shame to see such a great man being dragged down. "
I suspect that the concept that Alex Salmond does believe in the cause he has spent his political life fighting for--independence for his own nation--does shock you. Conscience politicians are few on the ground in most political parties. They exist in the SNP. He will never sell out his beliefs for power or profit.
Neither will the other members of the not-at-all-one-man-band such as Nicola Sturgeon, Kenny McAskill, or Angus Robertson.
One of the things I admire and have kept me in the SNP through some rough days is the depth of the SNP devotion not only to our nation but to conscience. To see Mr. Salmond stand up for Kenny MacAskill when he was under such vicious attack made me proud.
Where was Gordon Brown and others in the Labour Party when that 'rising star' of their party was going down in spectacular flames? They didn't even have the bottle to say 'we're sorry that he is having such horrible problems and he has done good things in the past'.
The only man in Scotland who had a good word to say for him was--Alex Salmond. The SNP isn't always right, but it is a party that I am proud to be a member of.
I will stand up for the party I believe in. No, I don't care if it offends some people.
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157. Ron McArthur
The passage you quoted didn't come from Auld Bob, it was written by kailyard at #68
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Is there anyone in the current ranks of the Hollyrood Parliament or in the ranks of the London Parliament who has led a strike? organised a picket line? agrued against the government line? defied oil companies? demoNstrated against Trident?
A head count would be nice right now because whilst their in opposition Ian Gray's troops will join every protest movement. I well remember only 2 weeks after Blair got in how things went suddenly went quiet. "THINGS WILL ONLY GET BETTER" was the song in 1997 but all the protest went for a song did it not?
To the reader: if you want to fight against loosing your job get a good lawyer and one who knows about employment law..........even if it means legal aid. Don't trust New Labour...THEY WANT MARTYRS
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#146 auld Bob, evening, As I have said on numerous occasions on brian's blog GG&C are in the process of reducing district nursing sister cover in Renfrewshire by 60% YES 60 % from 24 down to 10 . with the 10 that are left expected to become yet another layer of Management and have no patient contact ,with district nurses and untrained staff to do all the jobs in the community without being trained to do so.
the above of course having nothing at all to do with the quality of new hospitals. more rubbish from the board!
OH and they still haven't implemented the agenda for change wage deal for district nursing sisters in Renfrewshire don't know about anywhere else in greater Glasgow.
#10 John yes you are correct how else do you think Mr Gray got a hold of the information
#92 super G. - I'M not educated either but I would guess this is a job for miss Sturgeon. tackle health boards 1 at a time and start sacking some people on the boards until they all get the message!
you could also start looking at why we need as many top heavy & admin fest "health boards" in Scotland !
Sid
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162. Electric Hermit
"The Tories didn't facilitate their being kicked out of office."
But surely Labour politicians wouldn't see everything through the prism of their own selfish interests? Wouldn't they always want democracy? Surely they would never betray their voters by walking away from office and letting the Tories in?
Surely if they did, their supporters on here would be lambasting them for their greed, selfishness, and lack of principle!
I'm sure I can find someone on here who is condemning them as selfish, greedy, self-interested exploiters of the people. Actually, I can - but none of the people exposing Labour hypocrisy are Labour activists. Surely it can't be that Labour activists are just like their leaders?
Surely their snouts can't be in the trough as well?
*adopts naive look*
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Someone seemed to imply I'm a unionist. Excuse me, but I consider myself to be a supporter of DevMax and the SNP.
It seems that the board had been hijacked by the the political equivalent of "been driving for 40 years without an accident" brigade, self-righteous, intolerant individuals who consider the SNP to be the collective Second Coming who can do no wrong.
Insulting people who make an opinion is poor debating, in fact it cannot be considered a debate at all, but a slagging match that only serves those who are against the SNP.
If you wish to disagree with a post, then by all means do, but try doing it in a mature manner, without assumption, without demanding hard facts in triplicate signed off by a person in authority to confirm their authenticity.
Many people lurk on blogs, and what do they see now? SNP supporters demeaning other SNP supporters.
Arrogance is in abundance here. And lately it has surpassed some of the worst that was posted last year.
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84. Electric Hermit
"Imagine a talking plank.
Now imagine the plank is not as clever as your average plank."
Pardon ever wondered why this site isn't overflowing with valuable contributions other than yourself!
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166. BillyF
"Does Alex Salmond and the other narrow minded nationalists, think they are better than their fellow British citizens in England ?"
Ah and would those cuts include the London Crossrail? The Millennium Dome? Those and other ego projects which OUR TAXES have paid for as "UK contributions" and have been kept out of the computation of the Scottish share of the economy?
Come prepared to discuss real issues such as where cuts should be made and defend the spending on Trident and the SoS for Scotland and the HoL.
Come prepared to discuss it rationally and dropping insults about "narrow minded nationalists" and we can have a discussion going forward. Or else show yourself for your true colours as I suspect you already have.
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94. GrannieAnne
"69. Electric Hermit
"There is absolutely no racist/xenophobic element to the SNP's brand of civic nationalism.
Nobody in the SNP or among its supporters is in any doubt that the party's performance in the recent election was disappointing. Although they also recognise that it was far better than it might have been in the circumstances.
Nobody in the SNP or among its supporters is under the illusion that the SNP campaign was perfect. Not being motivated by irrational hatred, we simply recognise that it was not the unmitigated disaster unionists like to pretend it was.
"
Some good points, disposing of quite a number of comments on today's blog.
It is time to move on."
Try my link at #178
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We have all gone to sleep!
Now that the LibDems are in powwer with the Tories will the illegal war that was Iraq go the same way as Trident?
LibDems have booted the scrapping or a new generation of the Trident D5 missiles and will consequnetially allow the spending of billions on weapon that is useless.
Who will pay for the 600,000 dead in Iraq?
Will TB and GB ever go to trial?
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A New Dawn in Politics, the new milder Tories and the Awefully nice Lib/dems. The new type coaltion, the mild and mellows get off to a great start, pay cuts for all the cabinet, saving £300,000 a year. What an example to set for us all. Is this not what we need, two parties of undoubtedly opposing views working together for the National interest. Is this a new dawn after all?, or is it just another big yawn?. Time will tell, ranters and ravers will do their best to rubbish it, that's their job on this blog. The night shift will, if I am correct will be coming on shortly, pity their energies were not directed to more profitable ventures, but, playgounds are playgrounds all over the World. Let them amuse themselves, pleasures of this sort are free at the moment. Well I must confess, I come here for a laugh, there are plenty of commedians here to keep me amused. Excuse me a minute, have run out of bones, be back shortly.
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I would be more inclined to listen to the likes of eye_write on the benefits of independence for Scotland with an open mind rather than the Rant-Pack of GrannieAnne, Auld Bob & cj8652. Constantly spouting off anti-English comments, swapping victimhood stories with a deep loathing of the ‘foreign oppressor' mentality.
As you hijack the nationalist cause you are akin to the Al Qaeda of the Islamic world. Fanatical, unbending and shooting everyone down - even your own kind.
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166. BillyF
"Does Alex Salmond and the other narrow minded nationalists, think they are better than their fellow British citizens in England ?"
I see you have been taken in by the unionist lie that the SNP have denied the need for cuts. It's just a suggestion, but would it not be a good idea to find out for yourself what was actually said?
Or is it that you prefer the lie? There are people like that. They will cling to their beliefs in the face of all contrary evidence simply because to do otherwise would require admitting - to themselves, at least - that they had been wrong. And because admitting this might necessitate the rethinking of many of their attitudes and opinions.
I think the effort worthwhile. Others disagree.
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92. SuperG
SEE
96. Rev_S_Campbell
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151. Ron McArthur
True enough. You're right re baggage, The SNP has an image problem and defiantly putting their head in the sand (LOL, but GrannieAnne, Electric Hermit and Auld Bob manage it!) is no strategy. Most readers of this blog, if they haven't given up on the inane ranting drivel by now, I'm sure can see it, even if these dinosnores will not. And they wonder why I sound despairing of others sometimes!
The grumpy old woolly-jumpered, red-bearded, drunk, bitter and sad stereotype of nationalist so enthusiastically portrayed on here really turns so much of the Scottish population off. In fact if it were true that these were the types we'd be left with to govern on independence it would surely be a monumental disaster, and so no wonder so many people are scared of supporting it. If I had not been a nat for many years and was wondering, rabid rants such as is the norm here now (so much so that none can see it) would certainly switch me off and convince me against nationalism and independence. I can think past it, but many don't, as politics is not their hobby, stereotypes win the day.
That's not others peoples' fault, it's human, and people are busy. Surely we must accommodate that if we seek to convince. Bellowing, 'I don't care who likes what I say on here or not...rah, rah, rah' etc. etc. is giving up on nationalism, and frankly quite blatantly selfish, as it hampers the progress we need to make if the next generation are going to benefit from it. GrannieAnne may not care, she selfishly may think that she only has a few years left to live so what does it matter. But it does matter to those who depend on us to deliver. She may not care a jot. I do. I have more integrity.
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186. eye_write
Yes, what a unionist troll I am...
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100. loveme2times
"I have just listened to first ministers questions on the iplayer and I have to say that Anabelle Goldie's retort about the Clegg Bite was really funny, what made it funny for me is that it was a retort (made up on the spot), where as Ian Grey's joke (can we call it that) was practiced before hand and then presented, he would never think up something witty on the spot to retort to the first minister unless he was passed it from a college.
Concur
Does anyone disagree?????"
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#166. At 8:47pm on 13 May 2010, BillyF wrote:
1 - "The multi-billion pounds deficit left by the outgoing Labour Government is a UK problem and the unavoidable cuts in public spending must be shared by all UK citizens".
Where did you get the strange idea that this little problem of yours is a UK problem and the Scots are saying it isn't?
2 - "Does Alex Salmond and the other narrow minded nationalists, think they are better than their fellow British citizens in England?
Where did you get the strange idea that either Alex Salmond or his fellow nationalists are narrow minded? Sounds like, by your post here, that narrow minded may be a wee bit closer to your home. Not only that but coming to insult the entire scottish nation is not conducive to making friends - now is it? Btw: whoever told you anyone in Scotland though themselves better than anyone else?
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oh and whilst some of us are discussing GG&C health board please remember these are the same people who are quite prepared to cut or remove funding from a hospice and give the work to a private company .
the big difference being you pay to rent a bed to die in at the private facility whilst at the hospice you don't.
Says it all really!
Sid
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177. enneffess
"It seems that the board had been hijacked by the the political equivalent of "been driving for 40 years without an accident" brigade, self-righteous, intolerant individuals who consider the SNP to be the collective Second Coming who can do no wrong."
As is my custom in these situations I will ask you to provide examples which support your slur.
Or perhaps you could point to something you consider the SNP has done wrong and see if those you insult condemn you as a heretic in keeping with your inane caricature.
But I don't really expect that you will.
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178. clammylegg
"...ever wondered why this site isn't overflowing with valuable contributions other than yourself!"
No. I know exactly why it isn't. And I am completely untroubled by the situation.
But thank you for taking an interest.
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I’ve finally got a chance to see First Minister’s Question Time on BBC Parliament and also took in The Daily Politics. The latter is very funny!
I thought the First Minister was very effective and showed his customary mastery of his brief. Brian is correct, he did not take Iain Gray head on over the current cuts in Scotland nor would it have been wise to do so. Nor did he mock or lampoon any of the questioners and eschewed taking the man instead of the ball, something he is far too prone to. He simply presented the facts as he saw them. He struck exactly the right tone for the current circumstances.
What we all need to get our head round is that there is a new political Zeitgust. We are facing a difficult future with a new coalition government and Nation not Party will become the order of the day. Compromise in the national interest, putting your factional interests aside and pulling together in the face of hard fiscal arithmetic is going to what many people expect. At least it’s what they are going to be told they ought to expect by every opinion former that appears in the media. Who knows how long this will last, certainly not 5 years!
Mr. Salmond played that card today on several occasions when the asked all parties to back his negotiating position with the new UK administration. This strategy demanded the reasonable and consensual version of the First Minister appear today so he couldn’t savage Gray. The LibCon government is likely to have ramifications at Holyrood and the dynamics of the horsetrading will change. Alex was offending no one today!
Iain Gray is clearly growing into his role and was effective today as well. When he got the job at first he emanated the looks, sounds and general charisma of a Morningside undertaker. I do not agree with a number of the policies arrived at by Labour Group of MSPs at Holyrood. Fortunately that’s all it is, the policy of a Labour Group and it doesn’t bind me. I was not pleased at all by the performance on the minimum pricing of alcohol and was with Malcolm Chisholm on the matter of the the Libyan bomber. I don’t want to start on their treachery over nuclear power. So, I’m not saying this to suck up. Iain will prove a much more substantial opponent to Alex at the next election than Jack McConnell was at the last.
How will Labour MSPs respond to the new Zeitgust? What is our strategy concerning the cuts that are coming? If Gray gets these things right then he’ll be our next First Minister. I’m a bit uneasy about the line taken today. It seemed a bit like yesterday’s politics. But it was a good performance.
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never mind Wee Eck's 6 to 20 what about Ian Gray's 41?
we are 41 today! we are 41 today!
we had the key of the house
but its not for us so we will run like a mouse..........
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#173. At 9:00pm on 13 May 2010, albamac wrote:
"The passage you quoted didn't come from Auld Bob, it was written by kailyard at #68"
Ach! Ye shouldn't tell them that - - - until they have had enough rope to hang themselves, (grin).
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It seems that the board had been hijacked by the the political equivalent of "been driving for 40 years without an accident" brigade, self-righteous, intolerant individuals who consider the SNP to be the collective Second Coming who can do no wrong.
Insulting people who make an opinion is poor debating
You said it.
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Because we really do need discussion of Scotland's future, I suggest reading this:
Unblocking the gutter
"Today we face the biggest political mess of our lifetimes. A largely Tory England ruling a largely Labour Scotland.
How to react? The temptation is turn on the World Cup, warm up, sink three pints, kick the cat and pretend it hasn't happened.
As a trustee of the George MacLeod Trust whose job it is to spend some of George's Templeton 'reduce the chance of hunger' money I think that he would have wanted us to be engaged in reviewing the options."
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193. Jim Stevens
"How will Labour MSPs respond to the new Zeitgust? What is our strategy concerning the cuts that are coming? If Gray gets these things right then he’ll be our next First Minister. I’m a bit uneasy about the line taken today. It seemed a bit like yesterday’s politics. But it was a good performance."
So may we take it that you agree with the Labour policy that it is better to have Tories in Downing Street than to have to ally with the SNP?
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So it seems Gray once again just failed to check his facts.
According to the BBC has confirmed that it plans to cut its staffing by 1,252 by 2013.
NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde (GGC) said an investment programme in its hospitals meant it could provide the same standard of care with less staff.
It said there would be no compulsory redundancies and the cut would be achieved through natural wastage.
Read the rest here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8681032.stm
But - whilst some might think this a frivolous attack on the integrity of the Scottish Govt and of no consquence the fact is that this is episode is going to be repeated time and time again and Labour will as they always have try to scare people through their lies and inuendos. They are shameless.
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#174. At 9:06pm on 13 May 2010, BOAB wrote:
"To the reader: if you want to fight against loosing your job get a good lawyer and one who knows about employment law..........even if it means legal aid. Don't trust New Labour...THEY WANT MARTYRS".
Don't be silly - Labour got all the martyrs they need - Starting with Clegg & Cameron. They looked at the UK books - had a wee think- called an election and did just enough to lose it. By the time the Con dems are awake to what is happening there is no way out. They have no option but cut or tax or both. Watch the VAT go up. You see VAT hits the poorest hardest and why would a couple of ex-Eton schoolboys even try and go easy on what they see as Oycks? By the time the UK gets them out there will be no chance of either party gaining office again it will have seen Labour sitting in power for 40-50 years. The Union split into four and England part of France.
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187. eye_write
"Yes, what a unionist troll I am...
"
Interesting. Someone who is so blinkered that they think all trolls have to be unionist.
You might read your above lengthy rant including its personal attacks on people becuase of their age. Are you really proud of yourself? You think this is an SNP that will win votes?
I'll take my honesty over your contention that lying about our beliefs will win. And I have yet on this blog to make a personal insult against anyone--including your good self.
Can you say the same? Read your above post as I recommended before you dare to respond.
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183. amicusalba
You are, of course, totally wrong. No SNP supporter on here, that I have seen, has spouted anything that is remotely "anti-English". There are debates about presentation of policy within every party, but there is total agreement on the fundamentals.
The most important of these is that the SNP puts the interests of the people of Scotland first. There is no need to be "anti" any other people. There is, however, very good reason to be opposed to those who want to put the interests of the people of Scotland second, third or even lower.
Even more important than that, however, is for all decent people to put the interests of the people before the interests of a political party, and their hangers on who openly declare that they are only interested in their personal selfish interest.
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186. eye_write
"she selfishly may think that she only has a few years left to live..."
Let me point out to any lurkers that it is NOT acceptable to the SNP or its members or its leaders to attack someone's political beliefs or actions because of their age. I am ashamed that this person claims to be an SNP activist.
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Not so much a banana republic as a self opinionated X factor politic that is largely arogant and ignorant which knee jerks like a Come Dancing specialist on Match of Day. Most of your public are utterly controllable and a spin doctors paradise.
For those of New Labour who covertly or actively quashed the Left, no matter what their politics were in these past 13 years......may you hang your head in shame.
Things are about to go wrong...........very wrong!
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202. oldnat
"The most important of these is that the SNP puts the interests of the people of Scotland first. There is no need to be "anti" any other people. There is, however, very good reason to be opposed to those who want to put the interests of the people of Scotland second, third or even lower.
Even more important than that, however, is for all decent people to put the interests of the people before the interests of a political party, and their hangers on who openly declare that they are only interested in their personal selfish interest."
Very well put, sir. I'll read your posts (even though I don't always agree) even if you don't like mine.
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I am making a formal complaint - your report bears no relationship to the truth. "Isn't defeat wonderful".Well yes if every BBC reporter is willing to peddle and re-inforce your lies.
I cannot believe labour are going to get away with selling us down the river again.I suggest others make a complaint.
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#175. At 9:09pm on 13 May 2010, sid_ts63 wrote:
"#146 auld Bob, evening, As I have said on numerous occasions on brian's blog GG&C are in the process of reducing district nursing sister cover in Renfrewshire by 60% YES 60 % from 24 down to 10 . with the 10 that are left expected to become yet another layer of Management and have no patient contact ,with district nurses and untrained staff to do all the jobs in the community without being trained to do so".
Aye Sid, The point is, as Salmond told Gray, the Scottish Government has increased the funding over what Labour were giving. They are, though, a minority government, and in case you have not noticed, Labour don't give a fig for their voters if it means they get a cheap shot at the SNP. The SNP have bother getting the Parliamentary Labour party to vote for a new bog roll in the Holyrood loo. Just so they can get a headline, "Salmond accused of having a smelly botty". That's the reality. If you cannot get a majority vote you cant get. There are list of such things: Labour councils sack teachers, class sizes go up, "Salmond Accused of Not meeting targets". We need more MSPs who put Scots & Scotland first.
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193. Jim Stevens
"I do not agree with a number of the policies arrived at by Labour Group of MSPs at Holyrood. Fortunately that’s all it is, the policy of a Labour Group and it doesn’t bind me."
A fair post over all, but this bit confused me. Frankly, it doesn't matter whether you are bound or not - the Labour Group of MSPs are. They have chosen a route of attacking every policy of the Government simply because it isn't theirs.
There is an alternative way of working in a Parliament of minorities. Stick to your core principles, but on the many issues that are not part of the core, work constructively with the other parties. Good examples would be free personal care and the smoking ban. These were supported by the SNP because they were sensible policies.
This isn't just a matter of tactics. It goes to the core of democracy in a pluralistic society. Labour has not yet learned that the welfare of the people matter more than the party.
Both at Holyrood and Westminster, the Labour Party has taken the stance that "It's ma baw! If I don't get to be the striker, I'm no playin!" What you need to learn is that it's not "your baw".
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171. Auld Bob and albamac
What a mature pair of responses, and I'm at least half your age. My god.
I really never thought I'd say this but 'horrible' is an apt description here. I never thought I would descibe encounters with nationalists on this blog in such terms, I didn't believe the traits they were so consistently accused of. But there really is an unpleasant streak running though a lot of their reactions to honest common-or-garden posts. My god...
No wonder unionists mercilessly take the mick. No wonder we haven't had independence in the last 30 years. If this is all we've got against the British state, no wonder. It's worse than useless!
I have no love for the Labour party, at all, but I can take an objective view. At least they are organised in a coherent fashion, they seem to have have councillors and place men in all walks of public and business life across communities. They rally them all and muster support through the ranks, and get a big vote. Perhaps it's not the most ethical, I'd even say corrupt and dishosnest, but we could at least examine, if not learn something, not about being corrupt but about mobilising a large support. It's like a club and it's automatic and feels right for them to be a member.
But if it was left to the usual nat blowhards online, no one would turn out! No wonder we have the petty image we do, I'd thought it was mainly the media, but now I have to concede it's deserved. Of course it was pathetic to blame it all on the media, unrealistic. No wonder everyone takes the mick out of us. But it's tarring every nat of course. What fantastic progress to make over the last thirty years. What an inheritance, thanks. If it was paid employment you'd have been sacked.
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Am I the only one or didn't anyone else find FMQ session unprofessional and blatently childish?
MSP's seem unable to ask their real questions without first having to ask one which is trivial and usually unrelated to their intended question. This is a time-wasting nonsense.
As for Mr Gray's performance; it was childish and nasty. His attempt to claim that NHS job losses could be directly blamed on the Scottish government and not as a consequence of Westminster funding cuts beggared belief. When cash is cut doesn't something have to go? Can't see this man sitting on any company's board anytime soon. Can you?
I can't help but feel that there is a need to bring two new reforms into the Scots parliament;
1. to make MSP's sackable - to let the public have the right to remove any MSP whose behaviour is not professional nor business-like as would be expected of a senior executive of any leading organisation.
2. to ensure MSP's attend a management training course as a pre-condition to standing for election so that the public can be sure of having competent people running services on their behalf.
I'm sure that this would go some way to removing the irrelevant and time-wasting behaviour I witnessed today.
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200. At 9:56pm on 13 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
Don't be silly - Labour got all the martyrs they need - Starting with Clegg & Cameron.
Too right Auld Bob but we do not want ordinary people to go to the sword just because of New Labour's wish to get back into Parliament. I was a co-founder of a trade union in the Tory years and I know the schemes politicians hatch. There are too many innocent hard working folk out there who are so financially vulnerable and sad to say are in hoc beyond their eyelids. They were encouraged to get into debt by Maggie and Tony and Gordon......now the birds are coming home to roost
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#182. At 9:25pm on 13 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote: Excuse me a minute, have run out of bones, be back shortly
Yes! Dear! Anyting you say! Dear! Hurry Back!Dear!
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191. At 9:35pm on 13 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
"As is my custom in these situations I will ask you to provide examples which support your slur."
Well, that very sentence of yours for starters.
----------------------------------
201. GrannieAnne:
May I humbly point out, at the risk of being patronised by your wisdom, that eye_write is a staunch supporter not only of the SNP, but also independence.
What puts her miles above you in credibility and respect is that she doesn't react to any criticism in the same way as you do, but debates topical issues and comes to an agreement with other bloggers. As a result, those debates come to a good conclusion with every participant having had some ideas rejected and others accepted. I've had ding-dong arguments with eye_write, but it has never once descended to your level.
The simple fact that you refer to her as a "troll" is both demeaning, disrespectful and frankly rather childish.
I've been on this blog for over two years, and following politics for far longer. I've been converted from a full supporter of the union to one - while not ready yet for full independence - who wants DevMax. Not only that, I voted for the SNP for the first time ever, despite some misgivings over their message and tactics at times.
All this despite a few individuals who greatest contribution to the cause is to have a fundamentalist approach to anyone who dares even thinks about criticising the party, or heaven forbid the FM himself.
Not uncommon is as phrase on the lines of "I'll ignore that person now", as if the individual concerned is of a higher status. Sheer arrogance.
The SNP will succeed however, despite your apparent efforts to derail the whole process.
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155. At 8:30pm on 13 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
"152. Sheneval
Actually you went on at some length at how bad the SNP campaign was and how terms such as "champion", "balanced parliament" and "progressive alliance" were "patronising". I did wonder how using terms in common parlance in the language is patronising, but I didn't choose to argue the point. If anything, your comments were patronising."
I think if you care read my original post no.289 in the previous blog, you will find that the terms you quote were included in my post in quotes from a previous post I was responding to.
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201. GrannieAnne
"Read your above post as I recommended before you dare to respond."
Are you actually threatening me now?? Please. A new low, even for you.
Did you actually read anything I said? Can you do grown up debate, at all?
(I predict your response will be, "So where did I threaten you?! Can you come up with any evidence of your claim! AGAIN you've got it wrong! Whereas I never made any personal remarks..." blah, blah, blah....)
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208. oldnat
"Both at Holyrood and Westminster, the Labour Party has taken the stance that "It's ma baw! If I don't get to be the striker, I'm no playin!" What you need to learn is that it's not "your baw"."
Stop making me agree with you. It's very annoying.
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Hear hear enneffess!!
I remember when this blog kicked off in the run up to the 2007 election, it was really quite gripping and the debates pretty good; Brian's still blogging with good quality stuff, however the message board could really do with being shut down! no doubt I'll be accussed of wanting to stifle debate - but really - there's no debate here!
Most of the posts are the same self assuring/congratulating, SNP can do no wrong, (and slightly paranoid) statements - a bit dull actually!
It seems almost a shame that the cosy consensus on the board was shattered by an actual vote by the people, a vote which DARED to contradict the vast majority of posts here.
I'm sure that helpful explanations decrying the influence of the central belt on the MP's being returned from Scotland have been passed round in other places - sorry but the central belt's where all the people are!
If not that then comments besmirching the poor deluded central belt residents will have been passed around the camp, reassuring comments about 'them' not understanding the issues, perhaps they were 'fooled' by the evil Unionists, oh no, I know what it was, it was definitely the media. I love the arrogance of it all, the all knowing assuredness from some as to why other people vote the way they do.......
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202. oldnat
"Even more important than that, however, is for all decent people to put the interests of the people before the interests of a political party, and their hangers on"
That gave me a lift, so I thought I'd spread it around!
Well said, oldnat!
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#183. At 9:25pm on 13 May 2010, amicusalba wrote:
I would be more inclined to listen to the likes of eye_write on the benefits of independence for Scotland with an open mind rather than the Rant-Pack of GrannieAnne, Auld Bob & cj8652. Constantly spouting off anti-English comments, swapping victimhood stories with a deep loathing of the ‘foreign oppressor' mentality.
Then, no doubt you will have no problems in finding my vile anti-English posts as they are all there in the archives. Now Will you?
Go get them and we will discuss them. What you do is fetch my post AND whoever My reply was to.
As you hijack the nationalist cause you are akin to the Al Qaeda of the Islamic world. Fanatical, unbending and shooting everyone down - even your own kind.
You think so?? Again - go to the archive and fetch the posts you object to AND the one I replied to.
Off you go >>>>----->
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I thought this was blether with Brian, well Brian you are right, there are plenty of blethers on here. If they think this is a political think tank, a forum for serious debate, dearie me. I must have misunderstood the meaning of blether.. Although at times it was more like nats bashing nats. They just don't know when to lie down. You are doing a great public service, keeping them here out of harms way. Roll on the 2011 election, the little warriors will be getting frantic in anticipation.
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Imagine my surprise. Only half of the NHS story on Reporting Scotland after the 10 o'clock news.
It was probably just a mistake.
Perhaps it will be sorted out on Newsnight Scotland.
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Anybody know if the troll that accuses me of anti-English posts has found any yet?
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The Scottish Parliament is a great example of voting reform, you get so many bits of paper, you dont know whether youre coming or going. Why cant we have one system of voting eg. anything that stops the senior and their partners, the junior, tories getting a seat.
Seriously though, this country has too many voting systems. We have to have one system. Who cares if its FPTP or any of the proportional systems, as long as everyone uses the same system.
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Reporting Scotland News at 10.30 stil leading with the NHS cuts but no mention that they are going to take place over 18 months and mainly be due to natural wastage.
Mr Salmond's letter to Mr Gray re co-operation on fighting cuts is reported on BBC web site but no mention of Mr Gray's reply instead the story goes from the letter straight to Mr Gray's comments today in FMQ on NHS cuts. What was Mr Gray's reply to the letter?
On the subject of the coalition and its agenda. Announced today that ID cards to be cancelled and Home reports to go too. Like the fact that tax threashold for those earning less than £10,000 is to be raised albeit gradually starting in 2011. Good news for lower paid and pensioners especially single women in 60-65 age group who saw their tax bill doubled because of Gordon Brown removing the 10p tax band.
Now a heartfelt plea - could we stop all the posts of the 'he said, you said, she said, we said, they said' and post on more substantive issues. An awful lot of the posts seem to appear time after time on each and every BWB blog. I know the content of this blog is sometimes (often?) slight but....
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183. amicusalba
You are totally right (not specifically re listening to me of course ;-/). On this blog terms such as 'The English' are used when referring to the British establishment. This is simply inaccurate. It lays blame on the English when there isn't. 'Englander', which is known as an insulting term (even if the accurate translation is not, it is known what the term is is understood to mean, as in 'little Englander', to infer small mindedness perhaps), is used in criticising the English folk or criticising what they do or think or said. 'English rule' is referred to when in fact it is British, etc. etc.
It's not attractive, and users of these terms cannot expect then to be exempt from the inevitable criticism that follows. Just as other inaccuracies and untruths are also exposed.
Of course the SNP takes a very different line. It's a fairly easy one to grasp. England, as our neighbour, would remain our ally, our trading partner, all those who moved to Scotland from England, a higher percentage of whom support independence incidentally (some are SNP MSPs), could of course apply to become Scottish citizens, should they wish, upon independence...it's an inclusive approach, of civic nationalism.
The grievance thing really has nothing to do with the SNP, it's the fault of rabid stuck in the 1970s supporters who still seem to have bitterness they haven't worked out. Shame it's still tainting the SNP's image for others. But 'you can't tell them', or at least I can't. I have tried.
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193. Jim Stevens
"We are facing a difficult future with a new coalition government and Nation not Party will become the order of the day."
That immediately rules out the British Labour Party.
And what the hell is a "Zeitgust"? Could it be that you mean, "Zeitgeist"?
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John_frae_Paisley @210
As I remember the boring first question is so they don't have to tip their hand to the FM. Then they ask what they really wanted to say in the second one.
Perhaps someone else can take the time to confirm or disconfirm this... unless they are too busy.
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203. GrannieAnne
It's not your age, it's your total lack of care for how you are being perceived, which is damamging the image of the party.
At your age, you really should be able to grasp that?
And I thought at your age, you 'didn't care' if anyone liked you. But now you are entirely offended about a comment you have so sincerely decided attacks your age.
If you are not a grannie, and older as I implied, then I am wrong. Apologies then.
If you are, then I happened to mention it, so what then?
You have huffed over the (accurate?) inference that your age plays a part in a 'devil may care' precious attitude to nationalism I have highlighted? So what is it you are really bothered about? Nationalism, or yourself?
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208 Old Nat
Both at Holyrood and Westminster, the Labour Party has taken the stance that "It's ma baw! If I don't get to be the striker, I'm no playin!" What you need to learn is that it's not "your baw".
You're not wrong. In terms of politics at Holyrood what we need to consider is the extent to which we can set aside some of the bitterness that exists between Labour and the SNP. Allying ourselves with the the ConDums and rounding on Alex at every chance is no longer an option.
It is not possible to say how things are going to work out. We need to see who is going to be leading the Labour Party and what the stance at Westminster is going to be. This is not the 1980s and Cameron is not a right wing Tory. We deceive ourselves if we think otherwise. Cameron has done a lot more than simply paint lipstick on a right wing pig. He is probably as delighted as I am that the Mad Nad Dorries wing of his party is so marginalised. I expect this Government to be a very different beast but time will clearly tell. And they do have to make deep cuts.
In Scotland, we need to work out the extent to which we should stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP against the ConDems at Holyrood. Alex justifies everything he promotes as being in Scotland's interest and often we Unionists view it as nothing of the kind. Where we can agree we should present a more united front than has hitherto been the case.
The new shape of Scottish politics will unfold more clearly in the Autumn. It's very dificult to see clearly how things will go, so I won't be visiting my old friend Bill Hill any time soon.
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BBC Scotland News (though not on this website)
Labour controlled Glasgow City Council to cut 2,800 jobs over the next 3 years.
Why? Because less money comes back to Scotland from Westminster - and all those PFI schemes need to be paid for this year, and next year, and .....
Unfortunately, public sector jobs need to be paid for by taxes, and we know that UK policies in the past have been more concerned with keeping down income tax to please Middle England and dump the consequences on to the people in subsequent years, by borrowing and providing new facilities on the never-never.
The new Government looks to be even worse. The huge cost of adopting the LD proposals on raising personal allowances means that the deficit can't be reduced except by increasing indirect taxes like VAT and/or even deeper cuts than would otherwise be required.
It's becoming increasingly clear that Labour sought opposition at Westminster because they knew how bad the figures were. They may well (I hope not!) get power back at Holyrood in a minority administration in 2011 by playing the whining "poor us" card. As a political party they have been remarkably astute at dumping us in the proverbial, then using the victim mentality that they have created in their heartlands to blame everyone else.
Meanwhile, their friends make big profits regardless. Those people who have become increasingly prosperous because of the Union (though whether that is the UK Union or a Trade Union is unclear).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#202. At 9:58pm on 13 May 2010, oldnat wrote:
183. amicusalba
You are, of course, totally wrong. No SNP supporter on here, that I have seen, has spouted anything that is remotely "anti-English". There are debates about presentation of policy within every party, but there is total agreement on the fundamentals.
The thing that these people fall for is exactly what the Unionists have been doing since the union began. They have soaked it all in and cannot tell the difference between an attack on the UK, (Union), and England or English people. The only English people I can recall haveing attacked on this blog are particularly nasty anti-Scottish, anti-Welsh and anti-Irish organizations who claim to be English Nationalists but are more anti-everyone than Pro-England. I have challanged them to go to the archives and fetch my offending posts - so far Zilch!
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208. oldnat
"This isn't just a matter of tactics. It goes to the core of democracy in a pluralistic society. Labour has not yet learned that the welfare of the people matter more than the party.
Both at Holyrood and Westminster, the Labour Party has taken the stance that "It's ma baw! If I don't get to be the striker, I'm no playin!" What you need to learn is that it's not "your baw"."
That is it exactly. I would only add that the "baw" is in their court. If the "Scottish" Labour Party can undergo some kind of renaissance to become once again the party of the people then I for one would be delighted. But there is simply no sign of this happening. Their abysmal conduct at Holyrood proves that beyond doubt.
Scotland needs a Labour Party. It just doesn't need this travesty of a Labour Party.
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Anyone seen if the trolls have dredged up my alleged anti-English posts yet?
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212. At 10:18pm on 13 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
Yes! Dear! Anyting you say! Dear! Hurry Back!Dear!
Gee Shucks, I didn't know you liked me that much, people will talk, Your just an auld softy at heart. With the NHS cuts, you may have to find an altenative carer dearie, but I am sure you will be alright staying here amongst your pals and their carers, safety in numbers. I am completely overwhelmed by your affection, sweet, sweet man.
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191. Electric Hermit
"177. enneffess
"It seems that the board had been hijacked by the the political equivalent of "been driving for 40 years without an accident" brigade, self-righteous, intolerant individuals who consider the SNP to be the collective Second Coming who can do no wrong."
As is my custom in these situations I will ask you to provide examples which support your slur."
Never heard of a mirror, when you find one take a long hard look. Then ask yourself who/how are you trying to convince anyone that Independence is the way forward as you bang your drum marching up and down the street with or without a sash across your shoulder. Think!
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Andrew Oneill @223
If the ConDem government lasts long enough then their 5 yr fixed term will see elections collide in 2015 when there will also be a Holyrood vote.
More paper and possibly more of Lord Kinnock's voting machines.
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to want normality for Scotland is nothing narrow or petty
to want power for power's sake is dangerous
to combine with a party that was third (LibDems) or fourth (Tory) in Scotland is irrelvant because the party that is first in Scotland (Labour) is irrelevant
to combine with a party that was third (LibDems) and second (Labour) in England is relevant because the first party in England is the Tories is relevant.........but that would mean talking to the second party (SNP)in Scotland
to combine with the first party(Tories) and third party (LibDems)in England is relevant because the second party is Labour and its relevant
Conclusion: Scotland is irrelevant but a neat place for Trident
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216. GrannieAnne
"Stop making me agree with you. It's very annoying.
"
OK I will
GrannieAnne and eye-write
B***** women! There's far more that unites you than divides you. You both have positions and have stated them. GrannieAnne wants to confirm some core beliefs. Eye-write wants to reach out to those who can be persuaded to come over to our side.
Now stop attacking each other and attack sexist me instead!
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Old Nat
A fair post over all, but this bit confused me.
Forgot to answer this. Just trying to spell out that I'm not some Unionist Labour stooge. I always try to back what I think is right and if electric hermit and others think otherwise then they very wide of the mark.
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177. Many people lurk on blogs, and what do they see now? SNP supporters demeaning other SNP supporters.
Exactly, EnnEffEss. Perception is everything. I lurk, therefore I am ... perceiving.
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213. enneffess
Thanks, Neil. I haven't always been 100% objective on this blog, but I've always tried. In life I've always sought fairness, even if it's not been in my own best interests. I'd rather have a fair attitude and be true, and have no respect from others, if that's the way it had to be. So I don't expect thanks or admiration or respect or gratitude or to be acknowledged. So cheers.
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#210. At 10:14pm on 13 May 2010, John_frae_Paisley wrote:
"Am I the only one or didn't anyone else find FMQ session unprofessional and blatently childish"?
No, John, you most certainly are not the only one. The thing is the questioner was being quite stupid, (he usually is). In fact he seems not to have done his homework. The cuts are nothing whatsoever to do with the Scottish Government. The present Scottish Government had, as Mr Salmond said, increased the Greater Glasgow & Clyde Health Board funding over the funding of the former Labour Government. It was the GG&C Health Board doing the cutting and it is packed with Labour Members. It makes you wonder how Iain Grays mind works. Unless he thinks that his lies, like some mud, would stick to the SNP. You have to remember that this is the Guy who said he would rather not have Labour in Power at Westminster than work with the SNP.
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217. validpoint
Welcome to the blog, but I'm not sure where your post is coming from. You seem to have been lurking here for three years, but there is always a little doubt over a new poster who is critical of one strand on a blog, but somehow suggests that there is a party affiliation behind the post.
Can we hear your views on Margaret Curran's statement that “The SNP can barely hide their glee; this is the result they secretly wanted. They campaigned for Labour to lose the election, they fought to reduce the number of Labour MPs, they stood candidates against Labour; they repeatedly called for Gordon Brown to resign."
Stupid comments (including mine!) may be one thing, but we are just posters on a blog.
Curran is an MP and an MSP.
Response please.
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#224 cwh
"Now a heartfelt plea - could we stop all the posts of the 'he said, you said, she said, we said, they said' and post on more substantive issues. An awful lot of the posts seem to appear time after time on each and every BWB blog. I know the content of this blog is sometimes (often?) slight but...."
Seconded. The blogs becoming unreadable with the continuous posts on the matter.
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213. enneffess
"Well, that very sentence of yours for starters."
Are you seriously claiming that asking for examples of the intolerance and "SNP-worship" that you say you have seen here is itself such an example?
Credit where it's due. You have no fear of looking the fool.
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220. Ron McArthur
"a forum for serious debate"
You clearly don't qualify. Let me help you understand debate -
You making assertions isn't debate.
You are just a another Grey man it would seem. A string of assertions with no justification
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228. eye_write
"And I thought at your age, you 'didn't care' if anyone liked you. But now you are entirely offended about a comment you have so sincerely decided attacks your age."
I don't care if you think I am old or that someone who is old "doesn't care". I do care about you extending this or saying it is an attitude of the SNP.
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219. Auld Bob
I suspect he is referring to the fact that you mentioned Scots. Bad Auld Bob! :-)
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#217. At 10:25pm on 13 May 2010, validpoint wrote:
"Hear hear enneffess!!
I remember when this blog kicked off in the run up to the 2007 election, it was really quite gripping and the debates pretty good; Brian's still blogging with good quality stuff, however the message board could really do with being shut down! no doubt I'll be accussed of wanting to stifle debate - but really - there's no debate here!"
Then why are YOU not debating something instead of engaging in Nationalist bashing?
"It seems almost a shame that the cosy consensus on the board was shattered by an actual vote by the people, a vote which DARED to contradict the vast majority of posts here."
Oh! very erudite! Very logical! You first advocate political debate then spoil it all by claimeng, "A cosy consensus". You cannot have consensus AND debate"
Then in the midst of you learned dissertation it emerges you are just one more Nationalist basher.
Has it entered your mind that, to date, the troublemaker has not found any posts in the archives to back up the lies being claimed.
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222. Auld Bob
"Anybody know if the troll that accuses me of anti-English posts has found any yet?"
If there was as many "anti-English" comments as there are pointless posts whining about "anti-English" comments then the whiners would have no problem pointing to an example. They have been challenged to do so. They have failed.
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228. eye_write
"If you are not a grannie, and older as I implied, then I am wrong. Apologies then.
If you are, then I happened to mention it, so what then?"
However old a grannie may be, I am that age. Why is that something you see fit to attack me for?
What you are actually trying to attack me for is for refusing to lie about my beliefs and try to cozy up to Unionists who will stab me in the back as quickly as they do their real allies.
No thank you. I believe in nationalism, in the supremacy of the people of Scotland, and in their right to govern. I believe that we must have a referendum on our constitutional status.
I will not pretend to believe otherwise for you or anyone else on this earth. Anyone who can't deal with my beliefs is just out of luck. I do NOT believe that lying about what you believe is a way forward.
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223. Andrew Oneill
"Seriously though, this country has too many voting systems."
Isn't the UK wonderful! If AV goes through (and there is a distinct possibility that it will be another bit of paper for you in May 2011) that will be 5 different voting systems in Scotland.
It would be possible for the Unionists to construct a sensible constitutional structure for the maintenance of the UK. That they don't bother, but constantly tinker with it when they are under pressure is a very good reason to suggest that good governance cannot happen within the UK.
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239. oldnat
There is a fundamental difference in our approach and attitude that your rather weak summing up failed to spot, which was a shame as it was the whole point.
(And I've been patronised better.)
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239. oldnat
I'll let GrannieAnne give you the 'sexist' attention you seek.
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#223. At 10:39pm on 13 May 2010, Andrew Oneill wrote:
The Scottish Parliament is a great example of voting reform, you get so many bits of paper, you dont know whether youre coming or going. Why cant we have one system of voting eg. anything that stops the senior and their partners, the junior, tories getting a seat.
Seriously though, this country has too many voting systems. We have to have one system. Who cares if its FPTP or any of the proportional systems, as long as everyone uses the same system.
Actually the method is not the worst problem and changing the system will have little real effect as the UK is no longer a democracy. How can it be when every country in the Union is goverened and funded differently from every other country? Three countries with different levels of Devolved powers and one still run as the UK and funded as such. Then that one doles out Block grants to the others while using the UK parliament as its own.
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227. Wee Folding Bike
"As I remember the boring first question is so they don't have to tip their hand to the FM. Then they ask what they really wanted to say in the second one."
You're correct. Initial questions have to be tabled, but supplementaries don't. It's a stupid convention, however, and should be scrapped. If nothing else, it would be easy for the Presiding Officer and the Business Committee to rule that these initial questions and answers should be taken as read, and not articulated.
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213. enneffess
"May I humbly point out, at the risk of being patronised by your wisdom, that eye_write is a staunch supporter not only of the SNP, but also independence.
In spite of her accusations, no one other said otherwise.
What puts her miles above you in credibility and respect is that she doesn't react to any criticism in the same way as you do, but debates topical issues and comes to an agreement with other bloggers. As a result, those debates come to a good conclusion with every participant having had some ideas rejected and others accepted. I've had ding-dong arguments with eye_write, but it has never once descended to your level.
Well, she is the one who has decided--to numerous personal attacks, not me. If you think her personal attacks against me and Auld Bob are "debating topical issues" I take leave to disagree. She was the one who brought this on by her numerous, heated and very personal attacks.
The simple fact that you refer to her as a "troll" is both demeaning, disrespectful and frankly rather childish.
Show where I called her a troll.
I've been on this blog for over two years, and following politics for far longer. I've been converted from a full supporter of the union to one - while not ready yet for full independence - who wants DevMax. Not only that, I voted for the SNP for the first time ever, despite some misgivings over their message and tactics at times.
All this despite a few individuals who greatest contribution to the cause is to have a fundamentalist approach to anyone who dares even thinks about criticising the party, or heaven forbid the FM himself.
Not uncommon is as phrase on the lines of "I'll ignore that person now", as if the individual concerned is of a higher status. Sheer arrogance.
The SNP will succeed however, despite your apparent efforts to derail the whole process."
Deciding to ignore someone has nothing to do with superiority. Since eye-write refuses to debate by doing anything except attacking me on a personal level, I have no reason to discuss anything with her. In fact, there is nothing TO debate.
As for your comments about my "attempts to derail the whole process" as all too often you make these accusations (as does eye-write) without backing them up. Please link to these very objectionable comments I've made.
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# 224. At 10:42pm on 13 May 2010, cwh wrote:
"Now a heartfelt plea - could we stop all the posts of the 'he said, you said, she said, we said, they said' and post on more substantive issues. An awful lot of the posts seem to appear time after time on each and every BWB blog. I know the content of this blog is sometimes (often?) slight but...."
I stopped some time ago but it seems the instigator of the lies and accusations is still on the same kick. I am only asking for my alleged anti-English posts to be produced along with what I'm replying to.
That's reasonable I think.
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217. validpoint
"Most of the posts are the same self assuring/congratulating, SNP can do no wrong, (and slightly paranoid) statements - a bit dull actually!"
Please do link to them so we can point out and discuss how wrongheaded such an attitude is.
I make it a practice when responding to a post to link to it or at least put the post number. I somehow can't find the posts you are criticising.
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224. cwh
"An awful lot of the posts seem to appear time after time on each and every BWB blog."
It's a basic propaganda tactic. Keep repeating the same lie over and over again. No matter how often and how comprehensively the lie is exposed, just wait a bit and start repeating it again as if nothing had happened.
Possibly the best examples of this are the "Euromyths". Stories about the EU that are complete nonsense but which resurface regularly. You know the sort of thing I mean. "EU to ban bent bananas!" That kind of drivel.
We see the same thing here. Two examples are the "SNP one man band" schtick and the "SNP disastrous campaign" stuff. It is tedious, I know. But part of the price of free speech is that idiots like these get a voice too.
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242. eye_write
"I'd rather have a fair attitude and be true, and have no respect from others, if that's the way it had to be."
What happened to "it's is a terrible thing if you don't want to be liked"? Aren't we supposed to do anything we possibly can and say whatever is necessary so people will like us and we can win elections?
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213. enneffess
"What puts her miles above you in credibility and respect is that she doesn't react to any criticism in the same way as you do, but debates topical issues and comes to an agreement with other bloggers. As a result, those debates come to a good conclusion with every participant having had some ideas rejected and others accepted. I've had ding-dong arguments with eye_write, but it has never once descended to your level."
That may have been true at some time, eneffess, but it, certainly, hasn't been the case during recent discussions.
I really don't want to pursue this. I've no idea what is going on in other contributors' lives and, for that reason, I'm reluctant to harangue, harry or hound but recent blogs don't support your opinion.
Some of what eye_write has written was quite obscene and deeply disturbing. She is intelligent and articulate but she has sown discord and declared open season on fellow nationalists, for no good reason.
When she agrees with someone who classifies others here as dogs, I object.
When she suggests that some of us should be discarded because we've outlived our usefulness, I object.
When she characterises people of my generation as drunken, bitter and sad, I object.
When she declares that all of our hopes, plans and aspirations die with us, I object.
I have six children, sixteen grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. If eye_write thinks that my hope for the future diminishes as I get closer to death she is either as mad as a March hare or talking for effect! If she has children, she'll think again!
When she asserts that others should be silenced because she predicts that their lives will be shorter than her own, I object more strongly than I can say!
My daughter was bright, vivacious, intelligent and wonderful in more ways than I can describe, but she was dead within ten months of having a deadly disease diagnosed. Death is certain. Thankfully, the timing of it is not within the power or gift of eye_write! I could die tonight as could she or any of her loved-ones but none of those possibilities would fuel my political fervour or hasten the delivery of a political goal, however dearly held.
I can't say any more on this, words fail me!
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239. oldnat
Bad oldnat! I'm sure you're sexist... Well, you haven't acted like it yet, but I'll take pre-emptive action and say so since you ask.
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248. GrannieAnne
Well, now it's senile dementia as I never ever said anything remotely of the sort??? OMG, do I use one of your 'trolls' favourite phrases...?
"Go on, show me the evidence, cos the screen ain't looking...." or something.
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202 oldnat wrote:
"You are, of course, totally wrong. No SNP supporter on here, that I have seen, has spouted anything that is remotely "anti-English"
C'mon - you are usually more neutral than that. There are constant snide comments that refer to the English. Do I really need to pick some of these out? As I said - if more nationalist like aye_write spoke of the benefits of independence then more would at least listen.
Here we go;
GrannyAnne “I don't need someone from England wiping my nose or my arse”.“The English have always considered themselves superior to the barbarian Scots and still do”.
Cj8652 – “Its only since the clearances has our nation folded in to the happy subservience of English rule, Is it, tell me, a greed for power in London? or is it you are just, to put it simply, a coward! It is so sad that you have been blinded and corrupted by the lure of English gold”.
Auld Bob - "Now you know YOU could never stand for that. Perish the thought that we Scots should be equal to your beloved English".
Maybe your right - nothing remotely "anti-English" in that? At least you do not seem to point out the error of my 'victimhood' mentality. When you are blind to it then it only reafirms that the majority of Nats are driven by a dislike of anything to do the with the English - but lets disguise it as anti "United Kingdom."
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225. eye_write
"On this blog terms such as 'The English' are used when referring to the British establishment."
You have been challenged repeatedly to point to one example of this. You seem to imagine that if you repeat your lie often enough it will became accepted as fact.
I know you are a unionist troll intent on mischief. Others may not have realised this yet. So I take this opportunity to expose you yet again. Show examples of what you claim to have seen, or be exposed for what you undoubtedly are.
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229. Jim Stevens
"In Scotland, we need to work out the extent to which we should stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP against the ConDems at Holyrood. Alex justifies everything he promotes as being in Scotland's interest and often we Unionists view it as nothing of the kind. Where we can agree we should present a more united front than has hitherto been the case."
We largely agree. There are clear fault lines between particular positions of our relative parties - primarily Union v Independence. However, in terms of the Social Justice agenda, there is not only a commonality between us, but also with many LD voters in Scotland (obviously Danny Alexander as an Orange Book supporter is excluded from that!). In fact, there are a number of Left wing Tories in Scotland who aren't that far away from us.
What I find sad is that you (if I read your post correctly) need to wait to see what the stance of your new UK leader is to be. In the meantime, the poison of tribalism may have short term benefit for the Labour Party - but at what cost to the people?
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In the end, ONCE AGAIN, Scotland got what its people deserved and whatever the recriminations are two things are true.
1/ Scared by the Scottish Labour Party most voted for a Scot because they remembered Thatcher the epitomy of the libertarian right, and
2/ If you let someone into your house uninvited don't expect charity
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252. GrannieAnne
Right, so anything that isn't exactly as you write is lying or rolling over to unionists is it? Glad we got that cleared up. I was beginning to think you were sounding a bit la, la.
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252. GrannieAnne
'supremacy'!
Please. You fail to grasp that your way of communicating those 'beliefs' (shock, I share them - not the supremacist bit, LOL) is making sure no one reading this blog, after reading your less than calm and centered blurt, will touch them with a barge pole.
So what don't you understand about that? Can I help??
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254. eye_write
And I always thought patronising was one of my better skills! :-(
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227. Wee Folding Bike
"As I remember the boring first question is so they don't have to tip their hand to the FM. Then they ask what they really wanted to say in the second one.
Perhaps someone else can take the time to confirm or disconfirm this... unless they are too busy."
In part, you are correct. In theory, at least, any member of the government can answer any question. The only question the PM or FM is obliged to answer is one concerning his/her engagements for the day. Having answered this question, they are then obliged to answer all follow-up questions.
Other than this, innocuous questions are indeed tabled so the subject of the real question can be concealed. In practice, Ministers are rarely caught out by this as they are well briefed and, if necessary, can simply churn out some meaningless waffle.
It is not a very productive use of parliamentary time. But it does provide a bit of pantomime for onlookers. Serious matters are dealt with in written answers.
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#248. At 11:25pm on 13 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
228. eye_write
"And I thought at your age, you 'didn't care' if anyone liked you. But now you are entirely offended about a comment you have so sincerely decided attacks your age."
I don't care if you think I am old or that someone who is old "doesn't care". I do care about you extending this or saying it is an attitude of the SNP.
Strikes me, Grannieanne, that this person is an attention seeker. Seems to think being elderly, (and not all Grannies are that elderly), is somehow cause to sneer and use it as an insult. Only someone who is not comfortable within themselve thinks haveing lived a good life is somehow shameful. I just hope the person lives as long as I have so as to find out there is no shame to it. I am though aged and know what? It doesn't bother me a bit - I'm proud of my lifetime of helping my fellow humans. I'm ignoring all posts from that quarter but will pop in the occasional request for the evidence to be produced. Neither will I sink to ad hominem and lies either.
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258. GrannieAnne
GrannieAnne, it's the aggressive tone you use and defensive expression of them (your views)! It's like shouting down the phone at a pestering caller.
So answer the point, as you self righeously say. Evidence? Every post you've ever made! It's so obvious, your sniping, your attitide. Neil originally made some observations, remember. You tore strips off him!
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228. eye_write
"It's not your age, it's your total lack of care for how you are being perceived, which is damamging the image of the party."
Arrant nonsense! It is only your perception. You don't speak for the Scottish National Party. And only a complete idiot would imagine a single anonymous individual commenting on a blog was representative of an entire political party and all its members and supporters.
GrannieAnne is no more "damaging the image of the party" than you are. The difference is, she isn't trying to.
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#89. At 5:55pm on 13 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
#19. At 3:04pm on 13 May 2010, hamish42 wrote:
FMQs
We didn't get any real explanation as to why these people were being paid off, only a comment that the NHS budget was actually being increased. I assume there must be a good reason? Efficiency savings perhaps, which would be quite legitimate?
Nope! It decidedly is Glasgow Health Board making the cuts. I cut & paste a quote, "NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde (GGC) said an investment programme in its hospitals meant it could provide the same standard of care with less staff.
It said there would be no compulsory redundancies and the cut would be achieved through natural wastage".
--------------------
Well this seems to me like a perfectly acceptable explanation, but I am mystified as to why Salmond didn't say this loud and clear. People like myself would have been waiting for a proper answer to Gray's horror story and we didn't get one. It should have been stated along with the comment about increased budgets for the NHS, the latter being too remote for most people to relate to. It needs to be spelt out unequivically without anyone having to extrapolate or to guess what the details might be.
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#257. At 11:38pm on 13 May 2010, oldnat wrote:
227. Wee Folding Bike
"As I remember the boring first question is so they don't have to tip their hand to the FM. Then they ask what they really wanted to say in the second one."
To be fair there was a different answer in that Salmond responded he was meeting the new PM, "very soon". You know I always though Brown's initial ignoring of the Scottish FM was extremely childish on Brown's part. He certianly went down in my estimation.
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246. Electric Hermit
"You have no fear of looking the fool."
I trust you will retract that, would you respond to your responders on your website in that manner or do you enjoy wallowing in the gutter.
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257. oldnat
"You're correct. Initial questions have to be tabled, but supplementaries don't. It's a stupid convention, however, and should be scrapped. If nothing else, it would be easy for the Presiding Officer and the Business Committee to rule that these initial questions and answers should be taken as read, and not articulated."
I'd always wondered but not enough to investigate the matter. I assumed it was some sort of parliamentary rule.
I do wish that something could be done by the presiding officer to bring at tleast a modicum of civility to the proceedings. I find them appalling. While the worst are Labour, there are times when none of the parties do us proud.
The presiding officer either needs to use the power he has or be given the power if he doesn't have it to bring the thing under control.
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Hi Oldnat,
I take your welcome in the spirit that it's intended, but the fact you 'welcome' me to a public blog, (this is not your blog, nor that of the frequent posters, the attitude of whom I complained) is indicative of an 'ownership' here by a small cabal, who don't debate but instead fail to respond positively to any attenpt to debate the issues raised.
I've not been lurking (as I said I've been following since before the 2007 election), however have become increasngly exasperated by the decent into mudslinging and intolerance on what used to be quite an entertaining read.
On Margret Curran's comments, (that's a bit left field, don't know where that came from) I can't see why there would be glee from the SNP in the aftermath of the GE, they didn't do very well; defeat for their biggest enemy - Labour, could, I would imagine, bring some sense of delight at their enemy's misfortune -years of trench warfare must be hard to forget.
The irony is that labour are the 'enemy' despite being (arguably)left of centre which is where the SNP are, they are only the enemy because they dominate Scottish politics and stop the SNP advancing - if anything the real opponents of the SNP are (politically)the Tories, meaning the result should bring no comfort to them.
maybe glee then with a small 'g', but really I doubt whether it will be long lived....
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@enneffess
re "May I humbly point out, at the risk of being patronised by your wisdom, that eye_write is a staunch supporter not only of the SNP, but also independence."
Do you know that for a fact?
Rather than a claim by someone whose comments seem purely aimed at people with a long track record of pro-SNP postings?
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Auld Bob - your angry, disparaging and derogatory comments tinged with victimhood shows you to be a bitter auld man. Is it dark and lonely where you are?
The Auld man doth protest WAAAAAY too much.
Enjoy your night!!
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247. At 11:24pm on 13 May 2010, oldnat wrote:
You clearly don't qualify. Let me help you understand debate -
You making assertions isn't debate.
You are just a another Grey man it would seem. A string of assertions with no justification
Well I got one thing right, the night shift is here. Wee Eck's team seem to work at covering this blog 24/7 good work, keep it up. When I see what happens to people who think they can use this blog for some serious debate, they are rubbished by the team from the one man band party, so why bother, I just stick to doing what I know annoys you and amuses me and all the other sensible people. If you are so smart, why bother spending time answering me. Let me read some of your pearls of wisdom instead, if you look at the q awaiting moderation, it's full of wee eck's team rushing to defend, what I don't know, but, I do know, you and the team, just have to have the last word on everything, well on you go. The team even has to have a go at their own supporters. Some unity, you do not need me to pour scorn on your efforts, the team manage very well on their own.
In this time of austerity, I at least give good value for money. Your team on the other hand, need to learn about cut backs and accept it's time for some of you to take voluntary redundancy.
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252. GrannieAnne
"Unionists who will stab me in the back as quickly as they do their real allies.
"
I suppose there are Unionists who don't stab people in the back. That is a generalisation I regret. The Labour Party's parochialism in their refusal to ally with the SNP and the LibDems dropping every belief that they have in order to gain power has me even more disillusioned than usual.
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Can't stay here, it's bat country!
Could we possibly debate, you know, politics at some point, or has nothing of interest happened recently?
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What was it about empty vessels and noise?
Oh yes :)
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258. GrannieAnne
"Show me where I call her a troll."
You don't say it but you do perhaps infer it by not disagreeing:
"Someone who is so blinkered that they think all trolls have to be unionist."
So, if we're being reasonable, Neil had a point when he assumed you think I am - do you in fact disagree I am a troll?
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266. amicusalba
"GrannyAnne “I don't need someone from England wiping my nose or my arse”.“The English have always considered themselves superior to the barbarian Scots and still do”. "
I stand behind my comments. I do NOT need the English and by saying that Scotland would fail (as was what that comment was in response to) it says that we Scots DO need the English.
As for the English belief in their own superiority, I fear all too often that has been proven. It is the reason for far too much past bloodshed to be denied. The repeated invasion of Scotland over hundreds of years, the destruction of the Welsh principality, the invasion and conquest of Ireland, repeated invasions of France followed by empire building (aided and abetted by the rest of these conquered islands) around the world, down to screams of indignation at the idea of Scots being in power in the UK--including a lot of hate thrown at a "one-eyed Scot" PM. How many times did I see that--not that he was a poor PM but that he was disabled and a Scot.
Are all such English guilty? I never said so and don't believe so but if you take off your blinders, you know that it's true of a lot of people in England.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
267. Electric Hermit
Try not to be overly silly.
1. She was one of the original trio who set up quirky.
2. You don't understand the internet meaning of "troll"
3. If you don't agree that "English" is often wrongly used by Scots as meaning the "British establishment", then you are supporting the stance of amicusalba at #266. That was clever of you wasn't it!
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266. amicusalba
OK Some Nats say stupid things! We do have our Margaret Currans - but none of them are MPs/MSPs. Now are you going to defend her statements?
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266. amicusalba
"ets disguise it as anti "United Kingdom."
And there we have the REAL crux of the matter. You are angry because we do not want to be a part of the United Kingdom like a partner angry that a spouse wants a divorce. If we don't want to be in the UK then we must hate the English.
Well, I don't. But I do NOT want to have my country run by them either. Does not wanting Scotland run by the French make me anti-French? Anti-German if I don't want to be run by the Germans.
And yes, the effect of the union and the desperate size and power of the populations is that we are RUN by the English. I do resent that fact. It causes imense anger and resentment amongst many of us. As in a bad marriage, we'll get along much better once we have that divorce.
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274. Auld Bob
"Strikes me, Grannieanne, that this person is an attention seeker. Seems to think being elderly, (and not all Grannies are that elderly), is somehow cause to sneer and use it as an insult. Only someone who is not comfortable within themselve thinks haveing lived a good life is somehow shameful. I just hope the person lives as long as I have so as to find out there is no shame to it. I am though aged and know what? It doesn't bother me a bit - I'm proud of my lifetime of helping my fellow humans. I'm ignoring all posts from that quarter but will pop in the occasional request for the evidence to be produced. Neither will I sink to ad hominem and lies either."
Well, Auld Bob, whether I'm elderly or not is in the eyes of the beholder. I don't feel auld, but no doubt in the wean's eyes I am. That is how life is. They love me and I bounce them on my knee while we sing Bonnie Dundee. (It's a fine song for horsey rides) Having an auld granny suits them just fine.
The disrespect and implications that this is the attitude of SNP supporters does bother me though or else I wouldn't bother to respond. I will try to not do so further because it really is a waste of all of our time.
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278. Auld Bob
"To be fair there was a different answer in that Salmond responded he was meeting the new PM, "very soon". You know I always though Brown's initial ignoring of the Scottish FM was extremely childish on Brown's part. He certianly went down in my estimation."
I never forgave him for the disrespect to the Scottish nation who had voted the FM into office. It didn't matter whether he liked the party or the person, it was his duty to behave better than that.
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Nice to see such a lively board tonight.
196. Online Ed:
I was wondering when you would pipe up. And in bold too.
I had to speak in a language they would understand.
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246. Electric Hermit:
Pot, kettle, black
----------------------------
"255. At 11:35pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
239. oldnat
I'll let GrannieAnne give you the 'sexist' attention you seek."
Well, oldnat is probably nearer her age!! (sorry oldnat, couldn't resist it!)
-----------------------------------
258. GrannieAnne:
What's this with the "show me show me" nonsense?
I'm not wasting time trawling out posts then producing the results from my analysis. It is obvious with the language you - and certain others - use on this blog that you will not accept other views without resorting to, shall we say, an unfortunate tone.
Someone dares to make a criticism (however constructive), and immediately the usual suspects demand proof. Well, if they want some then give me an email address and I will carry out a detailed analysis of the campaign (something I do for a living). I discuss politics outside of the Internet arena, and gather views from people with a wide range of political preferences (or none at all). OK, I'm not speaking to two thousand people via a quick call, but the discussions I have go deeper than someone with a clipboard and questionnaire.
You want "proof" of my accusations? Read your own posts for the proof. It's not so much the content but the context. Argumentative I can accept, but aggressiveness, confrontational, patronising, insulting, uncompromising and arrogance I cannot accept. If you were a certain Labour enobled politician I could understand, but you're not.
My posts are not perfect, and I've let myself go a little tonight. But the bottom line is that the SNP failed to either gain any new seats or hang on the by-election victories. They only got 20% of the vote. That MUST be looked at to find out why. Yes, the Labour scare tactics, the media played a part. But unless you can accept there were failings on the SNP side then you are sadly deluded.
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278. Auld Bob
"You know I always though Brown's initial ignoring of the Scottish FM was extremely childish on Brown's part."
If it had just been Brown, I think it could be put down to his lack of social skills. More importantly, it was typical of the reaction of Labour Party politicians. I stress "politicians", because I haven't found such obsessive loathing among Labour voters (within or outwith my family!) - indeed Jim Stevens above has taken a much more reasonable approach.
It seems to me that there is an institutional state of hatred within much of the Labour Party. While simultaneously seeing themselves as entitled to rule, there is an innate feeling of victimisation within them, which may well stem from their early days, when all the organs of the state were against them. That was true, but they really should have grown up and got over that by now.
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275. eye_write
"Neil originally made some observations, remember. You tore strips off him!"
I believe the term is debate.
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277. hamish42:
Hamish, please!! No on-topic discussions, there's a civil war going on!!
On a serious point, seen the EK News? Seems the council (Labour) is intent in removing even more green belt. With any luck the focus next year will be on local issues, as that might just unseat Andy Kerr.
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271. eye_write
You are unaware that in Scottish law the Community of the Realm of Scotland (the people) are the supreme authority?
Who did you think was supreme in Scotland?
It is one of my most basic difficulties with the UK which puts supremecy in parliament.
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263. albamac
Man, you've taken it all so personally! None of that was aimed at you in particular! I have a valid point. Don't cast me as a devil. I'm not completely daft, and neither are you. Come on, albamac. I apologise, you're upset. You really didn't think I was attempting to bring you down? Though I pointed out I felt you sounded a bit too aggreived at one point, with the English MPs, that was it. You picked me up first, OK. We clashed. But I don't think you are the obstacle, I really don't. To be clear, I am criticising Auld Bob, Electric Hermit and GrannieAnne - they are my stereotype. Clearly you aren't even nearly them!
I didn't say so, but I don't dismiss your service to 'the cause'. I was trying to point out to the other three how damaging and ineffectual their actions have been. A bit too clumsily it seems. But if the SNP has an image problem, and there's no doubting it does, it's not all on your shoulders!
It proves my point though, that how someone perceives what we say can have detrimental effects. Well, I'm a grown up, and I've listened, and I apologise. No offense intended to you, that was an unfortunate outcome.
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272. oldnat
You're not in my league I'm afraid!
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280. GrannieAnne
"The presiding officer either needs to use the power he has or be given the power if he doesn't have it to bring the thing under control."
Wholly agree. Fortunately for the reputation of Scotland, the microphones aren't set to transmit the sound of the claque to the public within and outwith Scotland.
Unfortunately, the public in Scotland don't get to see the appalling behaviour of Labour MSPs. While it would delight their party hacks, I doubt that normal voters (like most of their own) would approve of such behaviour.
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#230 oldnat
"It's becoming increasingly clear that Labour sought opposition at Westminster because they knew how bad the figures were."
I dare say that is true.
Whatever view one takes of the measures which the ConDem government seems to be set upon adopting in the near future in respect of UK public debt, and however concerned one may be, with reason, about the effects that these may be expected to have on the Scottish economy, the fact should not be lost sight of that there is a truly horrendous public-debt problem to be sorted out. It should also be borne in mind that financial-market speculators need to be kept at bay as if they were a pack of ravening wolves, as they are a pack of ravening wolves.
What would attract them to Blighty? A level of public debt that is only just below that of Greece and is above those of Portugal and Spain, whose credit ratings were recently reduced by the rating agencies, making it more costly for them to service their debt. The UK is genuinely in deep doo-doo. Of that there can be no doubt. There can equally be no doubt, I venture to suggest, that the recently departed Labour UK PM is far from being wholly blameless, as he even admitted himself at an early stage of the UK general-election campaign when discussing financial-sector deregulation that occurred during his chancellorship. Labour's culpability does not end there, however.
The recent misfortunes of Greece illustrate how wrong Prime Minister Brown was to encourage the governments of other states to increase public spending massively to compensate for the economic slow-down which resulted from the financial crisis. The unsustainably high level of UK public borrowing would probably now be resulting in loss of the UK's AAA credit rating if the general election had not produced a UK administration ready and willing to recognize the utter mess that the UK's finances and economy are in and if that government were not now credibly proposing to take debt-reduction measures of which the rating agencies may be expected to approve.
Clearly, these measures are not going to be popular, and they are going to be painful, not least in Scotland. The severity of the public-spending cuts that are coming derive from mistakes made by the Labour UK government. The ConDems will be condemned for implementing them, but the Labour government is responsible for creating the necessity for them.
Labour's phenomenally disastrous mismanagement of the UK economy nevertheless presents the Scottish independence movement with an opportunity, of course. As the public sector in Scotland contracts and as the Scottish Government's budget is reduced, resulting social upheaval should provide a catalyst for radical constitutional reform. What will be more important than allocating blame will be to channel public discontent and eventually anger into demand for further self-government.
As the Calman proposals that the ConDems are likely to bring forward seem to be undesirable from a Scottish perspective, and even unworkable, the Labour Party, owing to the fact that it is not in a position to implement them itself, may conceivably condemn them as such and advocate something more ambitious as part of its rallying call to the downtrodden of North Britain. Should such a prospect ever appear outside the realms of fantasy, one trusts that the SNP will know how best to take advantage of it.
Scottish Labour will have to get past its clunking-fist style of opposition first, though, clearly. Bring back Wendy. Or even Jack.
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282. RandomScot
Holy fart! :-D
Yes. I have believed in independence since I was about 5, when I heard on the TV the numbers of MPs at Westminster and the number of MPs from Scotland at Westminster. I've just facebooked, blogged, newspaper commented and hustings-ed my way through this election, leafleted, put up posters, made posters, made a yard sign, moved the yard sign when the Tory candidate complained, distributed posters, and supported the court case. My friends on facebook are probably glad the election, and my 'funnies' about it, are over ;-)
In my constituency the SNP candidate was returned with a four thousand majority, all down to my posters of course! ;-/
I've been on this blog since October 2008 and since then have, uniquely at the time, positively influenced the opinions of staunchly anti-independence posters, and gained respect from others I didn't manage to make accept my point. OK?
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284. Ron McArthur
"When I see what happens to people who think they can use this blog for some serious debate, they are rubbished by the team from the one man band party"
The 'one man band party' has a whole team which makes it a very LARGE one man band. *chuckles*
It must be a rich one man band party as well if it can (as you imply) pay a team 24/7 to post. Pretty successful one man band party. I like it! Glad I'm a member although I seem to be missing the paychecks. Silly me posting what I believe instead of what someone tells me to.
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289. GrannieAnne
Oh, dear, GrannieAnne. See the damage?
If not, swap 'English', for 'Asian', 'black', 'men', 'elves'....
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281. validpoint
"I take your welcome in the spirit that it's intended, but the fact you 'welcome' me to a public blog"
It's a common convention on many blogs, for those who regularly post to say "welcome" to new posters. You'll find exactly the same on political betting for example.
Delighted you returned. Unfortunately, there is a sad tendency for some to post a partisan comment once, and never return to add to the debate. Hence my initially guarded welcome!
You'll have noticed some of the discussion above that the SNP and Labour (while clearly divided on the question of Scottish autonomy) should be able to work together on a whole set of issues for the benefit of Scotland. I have seen a huge difference in attitude between the SNP and Labour while these parties have been in opposition to each other. My perception is that Labour have opposed for the sake of opposing, while the SNP (while point scoring as all parties do) supported a number of Labour initiated measures.
Would you agree with that, or am I being too blinkered in my perception?
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276. Electric Hermit
I can perceive. Can you?
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284. Ron McArthur
Thanks for confirming that you have nothing to offer to political debate.
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288. eye_write
"So, if we're being reasonable, Neil had a point when he assumed you think I am - do you in fact disagree I am a troll?"
\
No, as a matter of fact I don't think you are actually (by my definition) a troll. I never called you such. I do object to you constantly attacking other people. Many people would consider that "troll-like behavior" which is why someone else on this blog called you that.
I don't know why you choose to constantly attack so many people from Auld Bob, Electric Hermit, me, Oldnat... I'm leaving several off. The list is so lengthy, I've forgotten who all you attack. And you insist on making the comments personal which I have said repeatedly is offensive.
You don't like my methods of debate. Fine. Don't read my comments. No one forces you to. But you will not tell me what to say. One does wonder why there are SO MANY people whose comments you object to. Oldnat is condescending. Electric Hermit you just plain hate. Auld Bob you have been way, way beyond rude to and attacked for no reason I can even figure out.
So although I don't consider you a troll, I have no rspect for you or your posts and really will stop reading your posts at this point.
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285. GrannieAnne
That's it. A little more realisation like that. I'm sure you don't mean to appear to be so blatantly ignorant ;-)
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295. GrannieAnne
Hilarious! Can I get the sitcom DVD? ;-)
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299. GrannieAnne
"I believe the term is debate"
Hee, hee, hee, hee. Priceless! I'm warming to you ;-)
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297. enneffess
"But unless you can accept there were failings on the SNP side then you are sadly deluded."
I will only answer this because it is actually an issue. You have never managed to answer what would be the point in discussing any failings in the SNP campaign here. You keep claiming that people have said there were no failings in the SNP campaign. Who (other than you) is even DISCUSSING the SNP campaign?
If you have suggestions about how to run the next campaign, making them to the SNP is pretty easy. They are very easy to contact.
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229. Jim Stevens
"Alex justifies everything he promotes as being in Scotland's interest and often we Unionists view it as nothing of the kind."
Not so. There is no evidence that the welfare of the nation and its people is ever a consideration for unionists. The issue of alcohol minimum pricing is illustrative. Surely nobody can actually believe the unionist cabal's opposition to this at Holyrood is anything other than the very pettiest of petty politicking.
The less intellectually acute unionists posting here imagine support for the SNP is based on nothing more than some kind of hero-worship or mindless devotion. Nothing can be further from the truth. Nationalists find their way to the SNP from every point on the political compass, and none. In no small measure they are drawn because the SNP has already the capacity for compromise with integrity that other parties are now paying lip service to.
It is not the SNP that has to prove itself worthy of the people's trust. It is the dinosaurs still wedded to the "old politics" who must do that. And it will take more than fine words in the first hours of a new government to persuade those of us who are aware of the Tory's record, and who have only recently witnessed the unreconstructed nature of the British Labour Party in all its self-serving faithlessness.
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301. GrannieAnne
Yes, Grannie, I once spent an entire blog telling them over on Nick Robinsons! LOL :-)
Get ready....I agree!!!
Almost nowhere has parliamentary sovereignty, New Zealand is one, and I forget. Hence no duty to have refrendums. Much better the Scottish way, and most everywhere else.
Woo-hoo!
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298. oldnat
"If it had just been Brown, I think it could be put down to his lack of social skills. More importantly, it was typical of the reaction of Labour Party politicians. I stress "politicians", because I haven't found such obsessive loathing among Labour voters (within or outwith my family!) - indeed Jim Stevens above has taken a much more reasonable approach.
It seems to me that there is an institutional state of hatred within much of the Labour Party. While simultaneously seeing themselves as entitled to rule, there is an innate feeling of victimisation within them, which may well stem from their early days, when all the organs of the state were against them. That was true, but they really should have grown up and got over that by now."
I never thought of it that way, but I can see your point. (I still have problems with forgiving Brown not that he had my vote anyway so one assumes he didn't care)
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301. GrannieAnne cont.
Oops, I thought you said 'aware'. Och, you were just taking the P out of challenged old me again - you're so nice!
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236. clammylegg
A long way round to admitting that there aren't any of the comments that you claim to have seen.
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294. GrannieAnne
"And yes, the effect of the union and the desperate size and power of the populations is that we are RUN by the English. I do resent that fact. It causes imense anger and resentment amongst many of us. As in a bad marriage, we'll get along much better once we have that divorce."
I think that's the point in language where we may have a disagreement. I suspect, at the end of the day, we might mean much the same thing. However, if you look at many of the posts from many in England over the last few years, they have been complaints that England isn't run by the English!
Discount the difference in size between the nations for a moment and look at the reality. The votes of the people in England are obviously much greater than ours, but they are only beginning to realise the difference between "English" and "British", and they are increasingly unhappy about that not being recognised.
The problem for all the nations of the UK is that they are ruled by an entrenched political class who are "British". Largely they come from the same social group who are geographically concentrated in that same part of the UK where they have concentrated the power and the wealth - the "Home Counties".
Those in the North and East of England are "English" but they have even less a say in the government of England than Highlanders or Borderers have in Scotland.
The English aren't the problem - the British are.
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308. eye_write
"Oh, dear, GrannieAnne. See the damage?
If not, swap 'English', for 'Asian', 'black', 'men', 'elves'...."
Yes, yes. Ever criticising the English is forbidden. Well, sorry, but that isn't going to happen. They are open to criticism just like the rest of the world.
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316. GrannieAnne
Em, it's a political blog!?? I think the SNP campaign probably counts ;-)
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303. eye_write
Ouch! :-)
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239. oldnat
"Eye-write wants to reach out to those who can be persuaded to come over to our side."
There is no actual evidence of that. Eye-write has done nothing else but attack nationalist posters on the basis of nonsense that, through refusal to cite examples, they admit only exists in their imagination. They have posted not one word of positive comment on the SNP. Indeed, they have been applauded by some of the most vitriolic anti-nationalist contributors for their tenacity in denigrating the party and its supporters.
This is not a viper you want anywhere near your bosom. I strongly recommend you keep it at arms length.
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312. GrannieAnne
"Oldnat is condescending."
I'd say she's pretty accurate on that! It really winds people up when I do that.
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313. eye_write
"That's it. A little more realisation like that. I'm sure you don't mean to appear to be so blatantly ignorant ;-)"
You really can't resist personal attacks can you?
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166. At 8:47pm on 13 May 2010, BillyF wrote:
The multi-billion pounds deficit left by the outgoing Labour Government is a UK problem and the unavoidable cuts in public spending must be shared by all UK citizens. Does Alex Salmond and the other narrow minded nationalists, think they are better than their fellow British citizens in England ?
No we do not think we are better than the Citizens of England, just that we woke up to the truth a lot sooner than England has. The Westminster Government, will slash and burn in Scotland a lot lot more than they will in England.
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263. albamac
"I can't say any more on this, words fail me!
"
You said enough. And very well too.
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317. Electric Hermit
"Not so. There is no evidence that the welfare of the nation and its people is ever a consideration for unionists. The issue of alcohol minimum pricing is illustrative. Surely nobody can actually believe the unionist cabal's opposition to this at Holyrood is anything other than the very pettiest of petty politicking.
The less intellectually acute unionists posting here imagine support for the SNP is based on nothing more than some kind of hero-worship or mindless devotion. Nothing can be further from the truth. Nationalists find their way to the SNP from every point on the political compass, and none. In no small measure they are drawn because the SNP has already the capacity for compromise with integrity that other parties are now paying lip service to.
It is not the SNP that has to prove itself worthy of the people's trust. It is the dinosaurs still wedded to the "old politics" who must do that. And it will take more than fine words in the first hours of a new government to persuade those of us who are aware of the Tory's record, and who have only recently witnessed the unreconstructed nature of the British Labour Party in all its self-serving faithlessness.
"
My problem with Unionists is that by definition their concern is not and cannot be Scotland. They often try to hide that fact, but it is impossible to get around.
Look at Jim Murphy who in debates went on a bit about how he was a patriot. What he was not challenged on and where I have a problem with him (other than a certain visceral dislike) is that if he is a patriot it is not for MY nation but for Britain which is not my nation.
This is a divide that is very difficult to get around. It makes any discussion between unionists and nationalists very difficult because our terms have different definitions.
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266. amicusalba
"When you are blind to it then it only reafirms that the majority of Nats are driven by a dislike of anything to do the with the English..."
Such is the lie you would like to promulgate. How can something be "
reaffirmed when it has never been affirmed?
And there is nothing particularly "anti-English" about the comments you refer to. Unless you are determined to see such in any mention of the word "English". Of course, some people could be more cautious about the way they word things. But that would run the risk of giving far to much power to self-appointed language police like yourself.
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323. GrannieAnne
back one
322. oldnat
QED
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328. GrannieAnne
But we're supposed to say what we think, not worry if we're liked, you said? (I won't 'lie' then either GrannieAnne ;-) Ooh, too rough now?
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326. Electric Hermit
On the whole, I prefer my judgement to yours.
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331. GrannieAnne
"This is a divide that is very difficult to get around. It makes any discussion between unionists and nationalists very difficult because our terms have different definitions."
Precisely.
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326. Electric Hermit
"one word of positive comment on the SNP"
Nope, not one word...about the civic nationalism, the welcoming (you can look it up!) stance to our neighbours (and again... ;-).
You're pretty entertaining actually! What else did I not do ;-)
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312. GrannieAnne
"Oldnat is condescending."
Don't know if I said that, but condescending would be a great leap up for you ;-)
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332. Electric Hermit
"How can something be "
reaffirmed when it has never been affirmed?"
That's very poetic actually. I'd suggest the harp... ;-)
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281. validpoint
"I take your welcome in the spirit that it's intended, but the fact you 'welcome' me to a public blog, (this is not your blog, nor that of the frequent posters, the attitude of whom I complained) is indicative of an 'ownership' here by a small cabal..."
Or maybe it was just a courtesy which you could have accepted graciously, but didn't.
I can assure you that there is nothing those you have caricatured as a "cabal" would enjoy more than rational discussion of Scottish politics. Surely no-one can deny that the constitution is a major issue. It is certainly something that warrants reasoned debate between nationalists and proponents of the union.
Unfortunately, this is all but impossible because we never hear from any proponents of the union. We only hear from anti-nationalists. And, regrettably, every thread descends into nothing more constructive than a progression of anti-nationalist lies and smears, followed by the inevitable rebuttals - followed by repetition ad nauseam of the anti-nationalist lies and smears.
Nobody would be more welcome here than a unionist with a genuine belief in the union and some well-developed arguments to support their position. It seems that no such creature exists.
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340. Electric Hermit
"Nobody would be more welcome here than a unionist with a genuine belief in the union and some well-developed arguments to support their position. It seems that no such creature exists."
Or, you always see them as 'anti-nationalists'! And so it goes on! ;-)
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284. Ron McArthur
"the one man band party"
That you persist in puerile drivel such as this gives the lie to your unconvincing claim of being here for "serious debate".
It could be rationally argued that Alex Salmond is "over-used" by the SNP. You are clearly not the one to make such an argument. Besides which, that argument has already been answered on the basis that it was what you were trying to articulate, but failing so very abysmally.
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322. oldnat
"I think that's the point in language where we may have a disagreement. I suspect, at the end of the day, we might mean much the same thing. However, if you look at many of the posts from many in England over the last few years, they have been complaints that England isn't run by the English!
Discount the difference in size between the nations for a moment and look at the reality. The votes of the people in England are obviously much greater than ours, but they are only beginning to realise the difference between "English" and "British", and they are increasingly unhappy about that not being recognised.
The problem for all the nations of the UK is that they are ruled by an entrenched political class who are "British". Largely they come from the same social group who are geographically concentrated in that same part of the UK where they have concentrated the power and the wealth - the "Home Counties".
Those in the North and East of England are "English" but they have even less a say in the government of England than Highlanders or Borderers have in Scotland.
The English aren't the problem - the British are.
"
I will give you that you have a good point. I think of it as being run by the English simply because no matter how WE vote, they have the numbers to over rule us so however much they complain about being ruled, it is only with their consent--or so it seems to me.
However, you're right that in truth it is a British ruling class rather than the political class from one nation or another. It is not that the political class is concentrated in one nation--although they are almost invariable educated at certain schools and share certain attitudes.
I do think that we believe me the same although we express it differently.
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334. eye_write
"But we're supposed to say what we think, not worry if we're liked, you said?"
So saying what you think is confined to personal attacks. So be it. *shrug*
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338. eye_write
No, you're right. You called him patronising. Close enough.
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332. Electric Hermit
"And there is nothing particularly "anti-English" about the comments you refer to. Unless you are determined to see such in any mention of the word "English". Of course, some people could be more cautious about the way they word things. But that would run the risk of giving far to much power to self-appointed language police like yourself."
Exactly. And at times, as Oldnat pointed at in a recent post, it is difficult to actually determine where the dividing line is. (alhtough he didn't phrase it quite that way) I tend to blame the English, not because I consider them bad people, but because their intrests are different than ours and with so much larger a population, our interests get sacrificed for theirs. Oldnat points out that the political class tends to be neither Scottish nor English but British. We both have a point.
But if I mention that I have a problem with the English running Scotland (which I feel that they do for reasons stated) I'm accused of racism. Well, the English are not a race any more than the Scots are. They, as we, are people of many races who inhabit a certain region.
But the thought and language police have determined that I can not mention that a certain region of the UK has inordinate political power.
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291. oldnat
"1. She was one of the original trio who set up quirky."
I know nothing of this. I can only judge her by her recent appalling behaviour in this place,
"2. You don't understand the internet meaning of "troll""
You do yourself no favours by making claims to superior knowledge that you cannot possibly justify. In fact, I have been around message boards and the like since the very early days. I have built, maintained and administered countless forums both on my own account and on behalf of clients. I could hardly have done so without acquiring an intimate knowledge of the terminology. You could hardly have got that one more wrong.
"3. If you don't agree that "English" is often wrongly used by Scots as meaning the "British establishment", then you are supporting the stance of amicusalba at #266. That was clever of you wasn't it!
I am very well aware of the tendency to which you refer. Indeed, I have only recently chided a contributor for what I took to be a step too far in that direction. What I object to is the sweeping generalisations from nothing in particular and the clear effort to brand all nationalists (small "n") as xenophobic bigots.
As a nationalist myself, and someone who abhors bigotry in all its forms, I am naturally personally offended. And as someone with many acquaintances who are nationalists I am just as offended on their behalf. I have met nationalist who most certainly are xenophobic bigots. In half a century as a supporter and sometime activist for the Scottish National Party I could count these idiots on one hand - and still have enough fingers left to offer them an appropriate gesture.
You may be inclined to accept such slurs with something I will generously call resignation. I am not. And, frankly, you have no bloody right to demand that I should.
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327. oldnat
"I'd say she's pretty accurate on that! It really winds people up when I do that."
Can't say it bothers me. Then I have been accused of being "arrogant" by the same person. I have a feeling that it's more acceptable in a male. :D
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340. Electric Hermit
"And, regrettably, every thread descends into nothing more constructive than a progression of anti-nationalist lies and smears, followed by the inevitable rebuttals - followed by repetition ad nauseam of the anti-nationalist lies and smears."
A point that has been made many times and calling it anti-nationalism is pretty accurate because they never seem to argue FOR the union only AGAINST nationalism.
Since I consider that independence is the natural state of any nation, you have to convince me that there is some overwhelming reason to not be independent. No one has.
Oh, I see the comments here from Oldnat, for example, that we need to convince others that nationalism is desireable. I just am not at all sure that is possible by argument. I tend to the belief that either you love and believe in your own nation or you don't. If you don't, nothing I say is going to make you do so.
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297. enneffess
"But unless you can accept there were failings on the SNP side then you are sadly deluded."
A very large number of posts in the last two or three threads have addressed this very point of failings in the SNP campaign. But in the rational manner that so totally eludes you. The fact that you have not seen these discussions, or cannot acknowledge them is indicative of the extent to which your faculties may be crippled by prejudice.
Strange that neither you nor the others who ignore the comments on this subject so as to pretend there are none never have anything to say about the failings in the British Labour Party's campaign. Or the failings in the Tory campaign. Only the SNP. Why is that, I wonder.
Your next line, lest you've lost your hymn sheet, is something about nationalists maintaining the SNP ""can do no wrong - or some similarly inane drivel. Then somebody asks you to post links to examples. Then you descend into personal abuse. That's the way it always goes.
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#217 - " I love the arrogance of it all, the all knowing assuredness from some as to why other people vote the way they do......."
Nah, it's the hypocrisy of the pot calling the kettle black that is really takes the biscuit on here.
And, yes, I do mean you.
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#220 - "I thought this was blether with Brian, well Brian you are right, there are plenty of blethers on here. If they think this is a political think tank, a forum for serious debate, dearie me. I must have misunderstood the meaning of blether.. "
And what, exactly, have you brought to the debate Ron? The sum of hee haw, going by your posts. Yet again, another unionist posts that invokes the words "pot", "kettle" and "black".
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enneffess wrote:
It seems that the board had been hijacked by the the political equivalent of "been driving for 40 years without an accident" brigade, self-righteous, intolerant individuals who consider the SNP to be the collective Second Coming who can do no wrong.
Insulting people who make an opinion is poor debating
enneffess wrote:
196. Online Ed:
I was wondering when you would pipe up. And in bold too.
I had to speak in a language they would understand.
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Lets kick of the day with a competition; how many 'mistakes' can you make in one article?
My Entry
When oh, when Lord shall you set your people free?
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Brian, your constant references to jokes tend to belittle the Scottish parliament. The childish diatribe coming from the opposition, especially Labour is an insult to the intelligence of the average Scot. Can I ask you Brian to delve more into the issues. do some homework and criticise any comments made by our politicians in an educated and constructive way. Potraying it as some sort of jokefest is merely destructive, or is that your aim?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Yesterday's spectacle from the Labour seats was shameful. There are intelligent, rational, decent politicians amongst the Labour group who must cringe with embarrassment every time the yahoos start roaring whenever Salmond speaks. It's almost akin to the days of school fights when everyone would gather in a circle around those asserting their masculinity and roar abuse at their pals opponent. The more sleekit, cowardly runt would of course always manage a fly kick at their perceived enemy. Labour appear to have at minimum a dozen of these types.
If Labour at Westminster, can re-invent itself after the TB-GB years, then surely it's time Labour in Holyrood did the same?
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I've been lurking for a while but never posted before - driven to it this morning though. eye-write, take the log out of your eye before you go on attacking your fellow SNP supporters. Your posts here have been rude and arrogant, whatever your splendid history. If you are truly the future of the SNP then I despair.
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356. At 07:08am on 14 May 2010, Online Ed wrote:
A thought whilst the war of words continues on here:
This weekend will see Newsnet Scotland hit half a million page views.
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What do we do about a problem called Gordon?
http://tinyurl.com/crashedgordon
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Congratulations Online Ed, it just goes to show there is an overwhelming need for an independent...or at the very least, non-biased media in this country.
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On the issue of NHS staff redundancies the reasons were explained pretty clearly on the radio this a.m., by a Prof who specialises on the NHS. Two of the reasons given were pressures due to the rising cost of drugs and the increasing cost of paying off PFI projects.
It is a great pity that the SNP did not reveal these things at FMQs, which would have taken the sting out of Gray's assertions and wouldn't have allowed the 'honorable' Brian and his comedy partner Hamish to award scores to winners and losers in the way they did.
The bottom line though is still the attempt by the media (including BBC Scotland) to undermine SNP government performance at every turn by giving tacit support to a failed and devious Labour Party.
(It was interesting to hear the Prof say that PFI contracts could be renegotiated becase of the public money that had gone into the banks and she did confirm that the NHS had received more money fronm the Scottish Government.)
It would be great if Salmond got the promise of his £700m or so back from Cameron today as it will have obviated the need for one of the main motivations to have his rainbow coalition. Also note. Where Brown couldn't afford to be seen to give special preference to Scotland because he is a Scot, there is hope that an English PM might be more open minded.
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For the record - I referred comment 356 myself.
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Anyone else getting the same response when trying to view anything on BBC's iPlayer?
I've been waiting for Newsnight Scotland's 11th May edition to appear. Yesterday it was still experiencing technical problems - today the whole iPlayer system is down.
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353. Online Ed:
Perhaps you should get someone to explain irony and humour to you.
--------------------------
350. Electric Hermit:
I spend far more time on an SNP supporting blog which is hundred times more constructive than this blog will ever be. Perhaps you should visit and read my posts (and others).
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Albamac , hear! hear!
Eljayjay , seconded and carried unanimously.
The arrogance is unbearable and I would find someone so " right" a very good reason for NOT voting SNP.
Judging by this comeback I would have preferred she'd stayed away.
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I would have thought there would have been an interesting wee article to be written on what is actually happening at NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, such an article would have thrown some light on the political soundbites. Has anyone actually seen the NHS GGC proposals? or have a link to them? As it stands, we have Iain Gray stating that he has a paper from the Unions, "only this morning", we have Nicola Sturgeon having a wee word with Alex as question is being asked, which would suggest he was not briefed before hand. Therefore we only have Labour presentation from a Union source, that in itself has to make the thing worth questioning.
NHS GGC accounts for some 25% of spending in NHS Scotland, it is still advertising vacancies, even in nursing and midwifery. It had to absorb the dysfunctional Clyde NHS along with its debts.
So what is actually going on? I suspect that GGC NHS is trying to realign its staff, ie it has too many of the wrong grade staff in the wrong places, at the same time it is probably making contingency plans for the cuts that everyone knows are coming, yet somehow this is seen as "SNP Cuts".
Could we please have some proper journalism, journalism that actually asks these sort of questions, that while listening to the statements from politicians actually does just a wee bit of leg work to give a wee bit of insight into the varacity of what they are actually saying. Yes it is very interesting to note that the dynamics might have changed, but surely the measure of this is in how much truth there is in any statement made by any politician, or are we happy to continue to labour with myths and perceptions.
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@eye_write
Now you confuse me.
Since you were 5? That soundslike a long time.
But I thought length of dedication was to be mocked?
If we follow your example of the last few days.
However, rather than descending into alleged humour at each other's expense, would it not be better that all,no matter their politics, engaged in rational debate with points backed by evidence, particularly if making accusations, one should be able to substantiate them.
I suspect that suggestion is futile but it's good to dream.
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#362 Hamish
I agree that it would have been perhaps better if the reasons behind the NHS staff redundancies could have been discussed at FMQs but I genuinely think that trying to discuss issues like this with Labour's neanderthal front bench is pointless.
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I have never read such obvious bias before Brian. Having listened to FMQ yesterday I am afraid you’re reporting of the content is sadly lacking in balance.
One Example – During the exchange between Aunty Bella and the FM I think you are stretching it to say that “swatting aside Mr Salmond's reminder that she had deplored the impact of a Cleg(g) bite during the election. This exchange seemed similar to me to the one in the gardens of downing street when Mr Cameron (Ant) was asked about his favourite joke being Mr Clegg (Dec) and the discomfort was there far all to see. Far from swatting this aside I thought this left Aunty Bella rather embarrising and far from “Tory anti-histamine would sort that, she soothed”. Iam sure she and others in her party may suffer from a good few Clegg bites and Cable tangles in the months and years to come.
You’re continued Trumpeting of Mr Gray amazes me “Mr Gray tackled the issue of impending cuts, citing the example of jobs to be lost in NHS Greater Glasgow.
Brian what about a bit more Journalistic investigation on Good Morning Scotland Radio in interview this morning this issue was discussed with a professor and the issue sounded to me that.
• The increase in the cost of drugs of between 8% and 12% was a major issue for Health Boards
• The undisclosed amounts of cash that the Health boards are spending on Financial Consultants as opposed to front line services.
As for Tavish Scott. “Mr Scott pre-empted such criticism by drawing attention to the announcement by the new (LibDem) Scottish Secretary that the detention of children in Dungavel will cease”.
I am sure that Mr Scott felt on safe ground however I am sure his party will have great difficulties just like Aunty Bella in the months and years to come.
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enneffess wrote:
353. Online Ed:
Perhaps you should get someone to explain irony and humour to you.
enneffess wrote:
Insulting people who make an opinion is poor debating
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In terms of the GGC maternity services I know that there are a good few MWives there not at all happy about the "efficiency savings" as they drop ever further into staff shortages at the staff m'wife level...
Though not really the snp/any goverments' fault. More of a systematic problem with the NHS.
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Right then.I have attempted to ignore the lies and hypoctacy of eye_right so let me attempt to put the matter into correct context.
Here is an exchange from a blog from a few days ago. It speaks for itself.
I also have, from the archives, the start of the rant eye_right stsrted against myself and Grannieanne. It though is much longer. I will post it if needed.
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69. At 09:24am on 07 May 2010, D1senfranchised wrote:
So, once again, the turkeys in Glasgow have voted for Christmas. Well, good luck to you folks. I'll say nothing about postal votes or the other election debacles at least until investigations have been conducted and thoroughly whitewashed.
On another note: as we know, pre-election polling showed 40% of Scots willing to vote for independence if the Tories got in. With 43% against and the rest undecided, we'll just have to wait and see what this next year brings. It wasn't going to be a good year, no matter who won - I just didn't realise that everybody was going to lose!
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82. At 10:00am on 07 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
69. D1senfranchised
Stop calling them turkeys. It sounds like the ravings of an insulting brat. And reflects very badly on the nationalist movement.
----------------------------
But see what eye_right wrote about the Scots in Glasgow.
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21. At 04:58am on 07 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
That Labour have such a grip on Scotland, even given that the dynamics of this poll made that so much more likely, is scary. For a corrupt organisation, they indeed have skill in organising. That's promising that the people of Scotland are so good at that. If we clean out the corrupt part...
--------------------------
Hypocracy - or what? It's all right though to call all the Scots Labour corrupt
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Interesting:
BBC iPlayer back up and running.
Every Scottish Newsnight available apart from the 11th May edition which is still suffering mysterious technical problems.
Reporting Scotland from Wed 12th (Jackie Bird) suffered the same problems for most of yesterday before being 'disappeared'.
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So, back to the real business.
Anyone going to be there to welcome our Prime minister to Scotland? Alex was on the BBC this morning they were attempting to make out he was asking for extra money for Scotland. Alex managed fine. He explained that the money he was asking for was already Scottish funds, (that cannot be used for anything else). These were held back by the previous UK administration, (Aye! you might ask why). So all Alex was asking for was for the use of Scotland's own held back funds. What's the bet it gets twisted as Scotland demanding "English", funds from Westminster.
Yes eye_right, (The Hypocrite), I did say, "England", because that is the spin they DO put upon it. NOTE IT IS A SWIPE AT THE MEDIA NOT AT THE PEOPLE OF ENGLAN.
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#367 soosider- morning, "it had to absorb the disfunctional clydeNHS along with it's debt" sorry but you are wrong on so many points.
1. argyll&clydeNHS was split up specifically by the Labour party to prove they could do it. IE it was simply a political decision nothing else.
2 greater Glasgow did indeed absorb the Clyde part kicking and screaming but they did eventually agree.
3. they did not take on the perceived debt of Argyle & Clyde. greater Glasgow received a very large cheque to cover this.
4.Greater Glasgow still discriminate against the Clyde part of their organisation, vale of Levin hospital being a prime example!
and remember GG&C board members think that removing the funding of one of the best regarded hospices in the country and replacing it with a private company who will charge patients to rent a bed to die in is a good idea.these are the kind of people we are dealing with here!
Sid
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293. oldnat wrote reference 266:
"OK Some Nats say stupid things! We do have our Margaret Currans - but none of them are MPs/MSPs. Now are you going to defend her statements"?
Your response is interesting. In the army we used to call your tactic 'switching fire'. Change focus on the point I was making by attacking (highlighting) elsewhere. However, I’m glad, in a roundabout way, you admit that what you said was wrong or at least mistaken – that there are virulent comments on here by the Rant Nats. Hell, they are even attacking their own which is never nice to see.
As GrannieAnne says - “I tend to blame the English” (What - all 50 million of them?), “not because I consider them bad people” (feigning reasonableness) but because their interests are different than ours” (Different from the rabid Nats you mean)
Even old EH gets in on the act; “there is nothing particularly "anti-English" about the comments you refer to”. Blind, blind blind.
Keep blaming the ills of Scotland on the English - that will turn off vast majority of Scots away from the Nats cause. Well done.
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So I've been looking at the draft Coalition's Policy. £6billion cuts:Reductions in Child Trust Funds and child tax cridits:Political Reform:Referendum on Alternative voting:Fixed-Term parliaments:55% needed to bring-down a government:Looking at PR-electd Lords:Cut in MP numbers:Cut in constituencies:Right to recall MPs:Calman:Referendum for Wales:Review of Scottish MPs voting on English Affairs:Trident to go ahed:High speed rail network and not a lot to benefit Scotland but a lot to hold her back.
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#375. At 09:50am on 14 May 2010, Auld Bob
"What's the bet it gets twisted as Scotland demanding "English", funds from Westminster."
Precisely right Auld Bob, R4 reporting that it was thought that the FM will be asking for 'extra' funding for Scotland.
As with much of these circumstances language is terrifically important (cf the last 300 or so posts!) - the starting point that Scotland requires 'funding' being an obvious example. I really hope that all the ConLibDem vague noises (previous to the election) about fiscal autonomy aren't just guff.
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Even with all the suscpicion surrounding the voting system and credibility of postal voting, I thought the SNP would have got at least one of the seats they hoped to get. What went so wrong? (Just back from a short break escaping the election and dread that we'd be under Tory Schoolboy English rule again, how could a party perform SO bad that they let in another that only a few years ago were thought to be deceased?) I am convinced they have lost the good will and enthusiasim of the original patriots, due to some very very un-scots like decisions. B4 you all jump down my throat I have mentioned my concerns before on numerous occasions. No wonder eye-write is so sensitive.
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377. amicusalba
"Keep blaming the ills of Scotland on the English..."
Nobody does. So you're making a rather childish fuss over nothing.
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#376
Good morning sid, having done a quick google I can find no evidence to support your position, perhaps if you could post some links that highlight where you believe I was wrong. What I very quickly found was Audit Scotland reports highly critical, also figures banded about that the old NHS A&C were running a massive deficit. To suggest than any party would split up a health board on what appears to be a whim is just plain daft.
As for my original post I think the thrust of that still stands, that this is a realignment of staff, and a refocussing of resources rather than any cut, a change yes but not a real cut.
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#377. At 10:08am on 14 May 2010, amicusalba wrote:As GrannieAnne says - “I tend to blame the English” (What - all 50 million of them?), “not because I consider them bad people” (feigning reasonableness) but because their interests are different than ours” (Different from the rabid Nats you mean)
So you think so?
This is a post from eye_right,
--------------------------------------------------
That's promising that the people of Scotland are so good at that. If we clean out the corrupt part...
----------------------------------------------
Then starts a vile and bitter campaign full of ageist and sexist bile.
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362. hamish42:
Your points about PFI are spot on. Remember the issue about hairmyres possibly closing? That would never have happened because of the sheer cost in cancelling the contract (or something on those lines).
It is ridiculous that more money is spent on servicing the PFI contract over thirty odd years, and at the end the NHS still doesn't own the hospital.
Now that Labour is out of Government, it would be nice to see PFI reviewed, but that is unlikely to happen.
However, since we own 70% of the bank, then perhaps we can renegotiate 70% of the contract.
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375. Auld Bob
"Anyone going to be there to welcome our Prime minister to Scotland?"
Note that, according to the BBC, Cameron is holding these talks. He is travelling to Scotland. But he is holding the talks.
PM Cameron to hold Salmond talks
It is the accumulation of small slights such as this which is so corrosive of the relationship between our two nations.
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380. Phil_Anthropponent
"...I thought the SNP would have got at least one of the seats they hoped to get. What went so wrong? (Just back from a short break escaping the election and dread that we'd be under Tory Schoolboy English rule again, how could a party perform SO bad that they let in another that only a few years ago were thought to be deceased?) "
How far away were you for it to look as if the SNP performed badly or that it was they who let the Tories in. I strongly suggest you spend a couple of weeks catching up with the news here on planet Earth before commenting further.
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"378. At 10:26am on 14 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
So I've been looking at the draft Coalition's Policy. £6billion cuts:Reductions in Child Trust Funds and child tax cridits:Political Reform:Referendum on Alternative voting:Fixed-Term parliaments:55% needed to bring-down a government:Looking at PR-electd Lords:Cut in MP numbers:Cut in constituencies:Right to recall MPs:Calman:Referendum for Wales:Review of Scottish MPs voting on English Affairs:Trident to go ahed:High speed rail network and not a lot to benefit Scotland but a lot to hold her back."
The coalition's aim is to benefit the UK not a small part of it and I'm wondering what parts of this exactly are the bits that are "holding scotland back"?
In general they all seem to be UK based with no real preference for any parts of the country? Not even the "hated" and "evil" SE corner. Even more strangely it seems to be what the parties actually had in their manifestos!
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108 – Jim Stevens.
Jim, you make reference to ‘you’ prospering from the union?
Would you care to offer comment on whether you believe that the people of Scotland benefit from the union, either historically, currently or in future?
Can you also confirm that in pursuit of maintaining London rule, that you would seek or promote alliances with other unionist parties to maintain the union?
For what it is worth I believe that the majority of Scottish Labour voters do not vote Labour because of unionism. I believe they vote Labour for either historical reasons with perhaps a small element of belief in Labours former ideology / socialist roots.
Would be interesting in understanding what you believe motivates your average Labour supporter?
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193 – Jim Stevens.
“Iain will prove a much more substantial opponent to Alex at the next election than Jack McConnell was at the last”.
That’s not going to be difficult in all honesty is it?
“If Gray gets these things right then he’ll be our next First Minister”
I guess he has a fighting chance, but first he needs to mature.
He needs to stop the sniping / hatred towards the SNP and the constant blaming of others.
Otherwise he will only succeed in turning off Labour support.
Labour would be best advised to fight the next election with an aura of positivity.
In my mind to do that he needs to be ‘a leader’ and get to grips with the rabid ‘Curran’ element in the party.
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That would be England.
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377. amicusalba
"Keep blaming the ills of Scotland on the English"
Nothing much riles me these days, but I do get annoyed when somebody tries to make out that the people of Scotland are no more sophisticated in their political awareness than to indulge in some kind of self-pitying culture of blame. Scotland has been at the heart of most of the major political and social reform movements of the past few hundred years. Enlightenment and social justice are part of the fabric of the nation and society of Scotland.
This is not in any way a claim to "Scottish exceptionalism". Other nations and peoples have undoubtedly made contributions as great or greater than Scotland. But the undisputed fact of Scotland's distinctive role in European social and political development makes inane comments such as the above all the more insulting.
And dishonest! It is a lie! There is no generalised culture of blaming the English in Scotland. And what is true of the populace in general is even more true of those who embrace the aspirations and challenges of national self-determination. No nationalist can possibly accept that our nation is defined by nothing more worthy or substantial than our relationship with a neighbour - no matter how historically troubled that relationship may have been.
The civic nationalism of the SNP absolutely requires that the nation be defined positively by its own internal cohesiveness and the qualities and attributes of its society. By focusing on this and the arguments from self-sufficiency the SNP has actually done more than any other political party to eliminate any tendency to "blame the English".
Those who would cast aspersions of this kind should reflect on who it is that they traduce in their silly wee efforts at partisan point scoring. The people of Scotland deserve better.
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366. At 08:53am on 14 May 2010, Diabloandco wrote:
"Albamac , hear! hear!
Eljayjay , seconded and carried unanimously.
The arrogance is unbearable and I would find someone so " right" a very good reason for NOT voting SNP.
Judging by this comeback I would have preferred she'd stayed away."
Hear Hear again - thirded!
I find Aye_Right to be oh so politically correct and supercilious. Reminds me very much of Annabell Goldie. Same "know it all" and "I know what's best for all of you" attitude.
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383. Auld Bob - Cleaning out corruption does not sound like a xenophobic or bigoted comment. It is not attempting to link it with a whole group of people like Scots or English, Catholics, Protestants or Jews. It's the corrupt elements.
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The SNP are the party of "the world and its granny " are against us. Lets look at the facts.
1. "We were dealt a massive hand" aye right, your campaign was a total disaster. You can put all the spin on it you want. 3 parties in Scotland won. Labour won 41 seats, the Tories and Lib/dems won, because they now run the UK government. The SNP not only lost, they could not stand up and say they lost, it was the fault of everybody else. Labour would not go into the "Rainbow Alliance" quite right too, they knew the mathamtics did not add up. Wee eck put the spin on, we at least tried and Labour walked away. The voters have to be treated with more respect and credited with more intellegence than wee ecks one man band party give them. Tell them honestly why you never even got 1 extra seat and also lost the 1 you had won in a By-Election
2. You take umbridge at the fact I keep saying, wee eck and the one man band party. You are supporters of a "Lone Star" party. The man is a political genius, held back by the lack of real talent in your party. He is run ragged trying to be everywhere, do everything. You can list all the names you want. The fact remains, you had to ask him to come back from WESTMINSTER, because John Swinney was taking your party no where fast and in fact you were going do the tubes. Yes you have had great people in your party from time to time. One I know sits as an Independant in the Scottish Parliament.
3. You are a party of opportunists, you ride on the backs of other parties, when have you ever won anything?. You depend on the voters dissatisfaction with other parties to get what you want. You used the voters displeasure of Labour to get in at the Scottish Parliament and even then, you could not get a majority. You thought the Scottish people would rush to support you in the UK election, thinking people would flock to you because they were unhappy with Labour. What happened, the people of Scotland saw you for what you really are, opportunists and a genuine one man band party.
4. I will make this prediction now: In the 2011 Scottish election, you will be trounced, why, because people see you as the whinging, moaning and girning party. The Labour voters will return to Labour, even the Tories and Lib/Dems will do well. Until you can get off the backs of the other Parties and stand up for yourselves, stop the blame game, learn a bit of maturity, you will remain nothing more than your. A One Man Band Party.
5. By all means campaign for Independance, putting over logical arguements will do your cause more good, than your current tactics. Give the poeple of Scotland the chance to see after all is said and done, after all the pros and cons have been argued, who they wish to follow and support. Accept the will of the people.
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This English blogger sees that Mr. Cameron is visting 'Ghillie Jocko land' (posh Tory speak) today.
I am sure that the people he will meet will be exceedingly polite - I think it was your contributor 'oldnat' who pointed me towards a memorable video clip of Mrs. Thatcher visting the Kirk and you could see that despite her effectively representing the political anti-Christ, she was made welcome, although one could detect the undercurrents.
Anyway, you won't be at all surprised to learn that this visit is being generally portrayed in the London media as PM Cameron vists Scotland and Alex Salmond holds out a big begging bowl.
PS. Thank you very much to two or three bloggers who explained the context of Tweedledee, Tweedledum and Tweedledem. Much appreciated!
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362. hamish42:
Your points about health board cuts are well made. However this is a classic example of how propaganda works.
Gray said yesterday he was given this document at 11.00am (very convenient timing, a coincidence I wonder?) so not time for Alex Salmond to be briefed.
Gray then quotes selectively from this document, only the job losses not the reasons for the job losses. It is now in the public domain as raised at FMQ. It then grows in the newspaper headlines to 5000 job losses in the NHS in Scotland, did they make the 5000 figure up? By the time it gets to the Daily Ranger will the job losses have grown to 10000?
What is left in the minds of the general public, SNP government responsible for 50000 NHS job losses. As I said propaganda works.
Alex Salmond should now counter when Gray raises any issue at FMQ by saying that as Gray deliberately misled parliament with his statement (it was not a question) about NHS Glasgow he will answer the point raised by Gray once all the facts were know. We would not want the Scottish public deliberatly misled would we?
P.S. I think both John Swinney and Alex Salmond thought that Goldies Tory anti-histamine retort was very good, just look at their reaction on the BBC i player.
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Even if we accept the faintly ludicrous proposition that the standing of the Scottish National Party might be affected in any way by anonymous comments on a blog such as this, what do you suppose might do the greatest putative harm?
Is it the odd comment here and there that might, by a considerable stretch of the imagination, be shoe-horned into a box labelled "anti-English"?
Or is it the relentless insistence by some that this is somehow so generalised among the population and pervasive in the party as to be a major issue?
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Expectation and performance are not the same thing. An expected result may not materalise from a good performance. The campaign wa steady, it didn't set the heater alight but it avoided the very many Labour gaffes.
I expected the SNP to get 10 seats - 11 at the outside. The six seat result was disappointing in that context.
However having realised what was happening on election night my attention turned to vote share. A drop in actual vote would have been a disaster in my opinion, yes even with the debate exclusions.
As it transpired the SNP took an additional 2.2% of the national vote something like a 13% increase in it's own. When placed alongside the Lib Dem high profile and their subsequent Scottish vote collapse this is very good news.
If the SNP were to achieve a 13% increase in it's Holyrood vote the result would be dramatic, possibly leading to a further 6 seats.
I'll tell you all something else. My own mother, an SNP and independence supporter (converted from Labour) voted Labour.
Her reason was simple - to keep the Tories out.
Ask yourself why the BBC are openly aggressive whenever SNP spokemen mention Scottish Labour's refusal to accept the offer from the SNP to try to prevent the Tory government.
The campaign - good or bad - is over, but with the right media exposure these unguarded statements from senior Scottish Labour figures are dynamite.
Finally, Newsnight Scotland 11th May edition is now available to view. One thing I hadn't realised is that Glenn Campbell decided to speak on behalf of the SNP when he claimed that the party now accepted that the Tories had a mandate in Scotland and had dropped their original 'no mandate' claim.
I stand to be corrected, but in the following day's interview with Jackie Bird the First Minister reiterated tha SNP view that the Tories had no such mandate.
So - on whose authority did Glenn Campbell make this claim?
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380. At 10:40am on 14 May 2010, Phil_Anthropponent wrote:
"What went so wrong?"
Well, the Labour party offered the target of keeping the Tories out while the SNP, effectively, offered nothing - meaningless soundbites about "local champions" and "more nats/less cuts" (and with the coalition now in power, even if the SNP had reached the 20 seat target, it would have made zero difference to the cuts we're going to be hammered with).
And talking about "Tweedles" is fair enough, but simultaneously trumpeting that you would never do a deal with the Tories is an admission that you think Labour are a better option. Not smart at all...
But, basically, when you're being squeezed you have to concentrate on hammering away at your core message - independence - or you make yourself irrelevant. The Greens did this and they now have an MP, the SNP didn't and won no support at all, with only really the hardcore vote turning out.
And, as I've said before, support for independence is still no higher than it has been for decades - which is hardly surprising when even the SNP seems to prefer to talk about other things...
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391. Electric Hermit
Seconded with pride.
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#102
UKIP supporter? I have never voted UKIP in my life (although I do have sympathy with their views on Europe).
As for devolution - with the exception of NI - I do believe it to have been a waste of time and money. The Scottish population of 5,000,000 has 188 parliamentary representatives (or 1 for every 26,000 people) - for exactly the same parliamentary coverage as provided by 530 MPs for England (50,000,000 population, or 1 MP for every 94,000 people - my figures are approximate). This must be considered inefficient and should be reconsidered.
Also for reconsideration must be the unsustainable number of public sector jobs created in Scotland by Labour (another disgraceful use of taxpayer money to buy votes). All this disproportionate waste has contributed to Labour's massive fiscal deficit and it is only reasonable that Scotland bear it's share of the pain to come.
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391. Electric Hermit;
Well done. You no doubt took a long time to structure your righteous post however you totally miss the point. Read back on my post;
In synopsis and I'll paraphrase somewhat;
I claimed that I would be more prepared to listen to the moderates (like eye-write) who discuss the positive aspects of Nationalism and that the current rant pack on here are a turn off as they seem driven by an enmity towards England or the English.
Oldnat claimed that I was totally wrong as no enmity by posters towards the English is ever shown on this blog - to provide evidence of this. I did - rather easily.
I did not blame the SNP - I blame some of the more frothing mouth supporters of the SNP on this blog who clearly have a grudge and do not even know it. They keep blaming England for the ills of Scotland - along with words like "traitor, coward, selling out for English gold, not loving their country" etc etc to fellow Scots.
It is what it is EH.
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Re my 396
Sorry about the typo, should read 5000 job losses, not 50000.
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#373
Indeed. I subsequently pointed out that I called no one a turkey. But, despite eye-write's self-proclaimed genius, she appears not to understand how a metaphor works. Or maybe a retraction is beyond her.
I, however, will offer a retraction - an apology, in fact. If anyone is reading this, and is a resident of Glasgow, and has voted Labour in the election: please do not think I think you are a turkey. I am sure you would not have been able to get a polling card if you were a turkey. However, allow me to liken your choice in the recent election to that same choice a turkey might make if he/she voted for Christmas to happen. Feel free to disagree with that opinion. It is only an opinion - no more or less valid than any other. It was based on the observation that residents of your wonderful city, which I love so much, have elected Labour representatives at all levels of governance for longer than I have been alive, and yet it seems not to have done you any favours. Maybe you think the current crop of Labour representatives will be better. I truly hope they will.
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#359 online ed: "Half a million hits, eh? And about half a dozen regular participants. If it's so successful and popular, how do you constantly find time to plug it here? I've no objection to your little propaganda project, but please don't be so pretentious as to imagine it offers truth or reason. It's quite sad, actually to see gullible people telling each other how right they are and how wrong the rest of the country, the 80 per cent, are.
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Jeez, gees a break man. I meant the labour party performing so badly that they let the toffs back in.
So, how well did the SNP do then? Figures I read were a 0.1% over all increase and lucky to keep the seats they had actually, but granted it was a BBC analysis. No where near the 20 seats hoped for nor the 13 expected. Why?! WHY?! Its not good enough. They were gaining ground slowly but surely, despite the Glasgow toon being slow to awakening, despite the ominous reporting of media. They are doing something wrong. Can you acccept that? And you should if you're wise and really want indy. If you can accept that then what could it be?
Seems eye-write is not the only one a touch sensitive. She's actualy ok, bye the way. She's a pacifist and doesn't like violenece, even though the frustrations expressed that she takes offenece to are understandable. Pacifists are people too....
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#394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
"2. You take umbridge"
Umbridge? The location of an everyday soap opera of Unionist folk?
The BBC are sure to snap it up.
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I predict the next election for the Scottish Government will be dominated by the SNP and Labour. As will council elections.
The CONLIBS have not only shot themselves in the foot they've effectively shut the door in their own faces.
The Scottish nation are fed up to the back teeth of being shafted by worse that usless politicians who have bags of enthusiasm when it comes to self interest.
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399. Robin
A seriously flawed analysis in many was. But particularly in that you so embarrassingly fail to recognise one of the most significant facts of Scottish politics today. The fact that Westminster is no longer regarded by anyone as the principle route to independence. The Scottish Parliament took over that role long ago. Do try to keep up.
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Doubts over Labour cuts claim.
Newsnet Scotland
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(test post - intro.)
Right, listen up you big bunch o scuttery aul farty drawerses :-)
Sigh, what are you like! ;-)
Bunch o bananas, grumbling away at me now! :-)
Like I'd say to my boys, "What's all the nonsense!"
I should be grumbling! This has been like reaching out to a dodo's sense of fear. Or explaining to flat earthers the earth is not flat! I'm not evil, I'm nice and I've been trying to do you a favour. Not for me, I've actually got your best interests at heart.
Just do me the tiny bit of common courtesy and consider that maybe I can join the dots and what I'm saying does possibly have a shred of sense running through it.
Can you? Thanks.
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177. Many people lurk on blogs, and what do they see now? SNP supporters demeaning other SNP supporters.
Not to mention demeaning voters for other parties. Is this what we have to look forward to should they ever get their way?? Nothing but disdain and vitriol?? I started reading this blog in the hope of getting an insight into how the ‘ordinary’ Nationalist thought. It has been enlightening to say the least!
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402. amicusalba
"Oldnat claimed that I was totally wrong as no enmity by posters towards the English is ever shown on this blog - to provide evidence of this. I did - rather easily. "
It is a sad fact that some people are afflicted with such an excess of righteous indignation that they must constantly contrive excuses to vent some of it. They are to be pitied rather than condemned.
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391. At 11:48am on 14 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
"There is no generalised culture of blaming the English in Scotland."
I'm sorry Electric Hermit but I have to disagree with you there. I was born in England (Scottish and English parents) and moved up with my family. I am very proud of my inherited culture on both sides but the resentment I have experienced towards the English in Scotland over the years from peers, Teachers, Lecturers and employers has been, at times, astounding. To some Scots it's a serious feeling and real hatred, to some it is seen as a joke and not taken too seriously but thankful to a growing number of others its a cultural embarassment. In my experience though there is still very much a culture of resentment against the English in Scotland but the strength of that feeling differs from person to person.
Politically speaking it is my personal opinion that a lot of people do not support the SNP because they do not support Independance. Why? Again I can only give you my opinion but I think a lot of Scots know that divorce is final and they may be giving up what they see as a satisfactory political arrangement (I agree that it's far from ideal) for an unknown situation, finite resources (oil) and being taken over by the bigots that do still exist. This is why I expect most of Scotland to start voting Labour again at the next Scottish Election.
Now i'm sure from your posts that you and many other Nationalists do not blame the English for Scotlands problems but not all Scots are the same and from my experience an awful lot of Scots do resent the English. Although the strength of feeling differs I do believe that the general culture does exist.
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#369Wee-Scamp wrote:
#362 Hamish
...I agree that it would have been perhaps better if the reasons behind the NHS staff redundancies could have been discussed at FMQs but I genuinely think that trying to discuss issues like this with Labour's neanderthal front bench is pointless...
Neanderthal they may be, but I don't think it is pointless because, as we have seen, all that Gray said was paraphrased and inflated in the Daily Record today (5000 jobs to go - SNP blamed) and Gray says these things in the sure and certain knowledge that, with the collusion of the Record, people will read about it the next day.
So this newspaper got more ammunition to mislead the public. If Salmond had put forward a cogent rebuff of Gray's question then they would have had to give his side of the argument even although it may have been in the small print. We can only hope that some of the readers of this, so called, newspaper read further than the propagandist headline and the first paragraph.
I don't know what the answer is to this new onslaught but a bit of radical thinking is required before things progess much further.
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"I did not blame the SNP - I blame some of the more frothing mouth supporters of the SNP on this blog who clearly have a grudge and do not even know it. They keep blaming England for the ills of Scotland - along with words like "traitor, coward, selling out for English gold, not loving their country" etc etc to fellow Scots. "
I have to single out this tiny minded logic,
"I blame some of the more frothing mouth supporters of the SNP on this blog who clearly have a grudge and do not even know it. "
But you can tell eh??
You can even tell that they are SNP supporters - for sure??
Sworn affidavits?
I have a serious grudge against spinners , obfuscators and liars.
They have distorted much over the last few years and thrown muck for political gain.
They have lied and cheated the electorate with the help of a willing and complicit media.
I'm calling time on the spinners and I hope that Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg do the same.
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349. GrannieAnne
"I tend to the belief that either you love and believe in your own nation or you don't. If you don't, nothing I say is going to make you do so."
And there we have it. You've never convinced anybody to nationalism? So it can't be done.
No. You just can't convince people! Biting their heads off never usually does it, GrannieAnne. Blunt, 'I can say what I like and who cares, boo you if you're too stupid to get it' rarely works, GrannieAnne.
(No doubt you've convinced millions, and I'm wrong again.)
Well done for not staying quiet then and hampering progress for the last trillion years (it would feel like it ;-). And congratulations for living that long. I fear another trill. may be needed before you grasp the basic nuances of human communication, GrannieAnne?
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"394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:"
At last, you make an effort to justify the one-man band epithet you keep applying to the SNP. Your reasoning seems to boil down to the fact that Alex Salmond is a very good politician. It's a fair point. If we applied that reasoning to Labour in Scotland, though, for instance, would we have to call them the no-man band party, since Mr Gray really isn't very good? That would be unfair, though, as we all know that plenty Labour politicians are, in fact, very effective (as are plenty politicians in all of the parties). Ultimately, your one-man band gag is a reductio ad absurdum. Attempting to justify the continued use of the term distracts from the useful observations you make elsewhere.
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Online, congratulations and more power to your elbow!
I particularly liked this mornings piece where the Herald and the Daily Record were hobbled together in horrendous headlines!
Once upon a time they would have viewed the Record with disdain, now they are much of a muchness.
I wonder if the Herald will be pleased to find itself in the good company of the Daily Record - what think you?
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407. At 2:07pm on 14 May 2010, ambi wrote:
"#394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
"2. You take umbridge"
Umbridge? The location of an everyday soap opera of Unionist folk?
The BBC are sure to snap it up."
You mean, like "You take Umbridge and I'll Take The High Road" ?
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#399 Robin
I do not agree that the local champions theme was a meaningless soundbite. It is entirely co-terminous with independence as a localisation of decision making and as such is worthy of a re-run as a theme for an election campaign.
I will agree that more nats less cuts was a disaster whose perpetrator should be identified and locked away from any involvement in any future SNP campaign, if they still wish to campaign as a proper political party.
To revert to this blogs subject of FMQs;
if, as I fear it might be, it was a super wheeze dreamed up in the Eckbath along with the rubber ducks, then someone should inform him of the limits of his genius. Being able to outsmart Elmer only makes him Bugs Bunny, not Superman.
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...they seem driven by an enmity towards England or the English.
Name names or cite examples please.
...frothing mouth supporters
Interesting choice of words - would you be referring to fellow Scots then?
...They keep blaming England for the ills of Scotland
Who do?
I'm afriad you have to do better than generalised accusations and name calling.
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411. eye_write
"...I've been trying to do you a favour."
Then don't! You're evidently not up to the job.
In your fawning eagerness to avoid giving offence to those who have no similar compunction you have merrily offended people who are in no way deserving.
The time for you to stop digging is long past.
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409. At 2:21pm on 14 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
"399. Robin
A seriously flawed analysis in many was. But particularly in that you so embarrassingly fail to recognise one of the most significant facts of Scottish politics today. The fact that Westminster is no longer regarded by anyone as the principle route to independence. The Scottish Parliament took over that role long ago. Do try to keep up."
I recognise it fine, the SNP's been wasting time with devolution for decades now - and completely failing to advance the cause of independence.
I know the SNP's "route". A referendum set up by the Scottish Parliament - a body created in such a way as to make sure it would be almost impossible for the SNP ever to win a majority. So your cunning plan hinges on hoping that the unionists let us have a referendum - and you think I should be embaraassed?
Also, I can't remember the context now (I don't think it was anything to do with Scotland) but I remember hearing a comment recently along the lines of "A multi-option referedum is what you have when you want to make sure you don't actually have to change anything".
Now, let's hear what's wrong with what I actually said - have I misunderstood, is support for independence actually increasing?
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411. eye_write
(part 2)
Grump, grump, grump against bad eye_write...
Have I been rude on here, cutting, vicious, callous, ruthless, blunt, cruel perhaps, and wicked? Yes, I have.
Why? Because the media, and so a great many other Scots, perhaps the majority (subconsciously, or at will - for the message is so pervasive, and the population so human), and the unionists of course, are going to do that, and are doing that, and have been doing that, for decades, to nationalists. No surprises, would you agree?
So, they say nationalists are jingoistic, resentful, bitter, petty, small minded, anti-English, and therefore ridiculous etc. I'm afraid this is our image - among non nationalists. I think of course a lot of it is deliberately cultivated, but that is not the point. We are not yet in the majority, and so we need to persuade others to join us. Obvious. And the others' starting point is our image, our negative image. This is not fantasy it is fact. To be in denial of it is fantasy.
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"414. At 2:34pm on 14 May 2010, GB wrote:
Now i'm sure from your posts that you and many other Nationalists do not blame the English for Scotlands problems but not all Scots are the same and from my experience an awful lot of Scots do resent the English. Although the strength of feeling differs I do believe that the general culture does exist."
Yes, you're right. That feeling does exist. It's wrong-headed, but it exists, and those of us who don't share it can nonetheless often understand where it comes from. We should do all we can to educate people out of it (just as people throughout the UK should be educated not to blame the Poles, the Jews, the Germans etc. ad infinitum, for all our problems).
I'd like you to consider one thing, though. Although you concede that many nationalists do not ascribe to this blame culture, you seem to imply that you feel it is part of a nationalist outlook, or that it should be associated with nationalism. I would assert that it is not, and the SNP's policy is very much that it is not. Scots of all political flavours like to blame the English for their woes. We should not. If we feel constitutionally disenfranchised (as many do), we could blame the establishment, blame the 'Brits', if you like. Or, better than that, we should get on and do something about sorting the problems and stop looking to blame anybody.
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394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
Sorry I won't repeat your rant, but I've never laughed so much in all my life. thank you.
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414. GB
"...from my experience an awful lot of Scots do resent the English."
It is hardly the fault of the people of Scotland that you engender such personal animosity. I'm sure we have all met Englanders of this ilk. They will stand in the pub and openly denigrate Scotland and its people with all manner of ill-informed drivel. Then, as soon as someone suggests they might be happier if they went home, up goes the witch-cry of "anti-English" prejudice.
To paraphrase an old saying, "When in Rome, remember that you are in Rome!".
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407. At 2:07pm on 14 May 2010, ambi wrote:
#394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
"2. You take umbridge"
Umbridge? The location of an everyday soap opera of Unionist folk?
The BBC are sure to snap it up.
Many thanks for pointing that out and I appreciate it was the only thing you had to say. It is gratifing to know the rest was ok.
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425. eye_write
(part 3)
So when someone accuses you of being shouty, do you
a) shout back 'I am NOT shouty!', or
b) explain quietly that you do not in fact have a tendency to shout, well, perhaps only if a unionist stands on your toe!' etc.?
(The later deftly undermines the accuser's assumption by referring to it using humour.)
It is plain to see that one response is intelligent, and one...well, not. Agreed?
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399. Robin
"But, basically, when you're being squeezed you have to concentrate on hammering away at your core message - independence - or you make yourself irrelevant."
Since an independence referendum will never come from Westminster, you don't say how that would have kept them from being squeezed. In what possible way would that have persuaded since a vote for an MP would NOT have been a vote for independence?
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418. D1senfranchised
"Your reasoning seems to boil down to the fact that Alex Salmond is a very good politician. It's a fair point. If we applied that reasoning to Labour in Scotland, though, for instance, would we have to call them the no-man band party..."
Excellent!
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394. Ron McArthur
Why thank you for coming to Scotland and explaining to us how to run our business.
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418. At 3:02pm on 14 May 2010, D1senfranchised wrote:
"394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:"
At last, you make an effort to justify the one-man band epithet you keep applying to the SNP. Your reasoning seems to boil down to the fact that Alex Salmond is a very good politician. It's a fair point. If we applied that reasoning to Labour in Scotland, though, for instance, would we have to call them the no-man band party, since Mr Gray really isn't very good? That would be unfair, though, as we all know that plenty Labour politicians are, in fact, very effective (as are plenty politicians in all of the parties). Ultimately, your one-man band gag is a reductio ad absurdum. Attempting to justify the continued use of the term distracts from the useful observations you make elsewhere.
I thank you for your considered opinion, I can agree with your comments about Mr Grey and other politicians. However I do not consider my tag of the one man band party as a gag, it was not meant to be a gag line and for the SNP, it really is no joke.
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359. Online Ed
That is great! Congratulations
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406. Phil_Anthropponent
Well, I've four sons, so...I'm not particularly in favour of war! Mind, who is.
'OK' will do ;-)
I'm decent and live by integrity not hype. People don't always like the messenger if the message isn't good news. But I'll tell it if it's the right thing to do. Truth is (as truth hurts) that their frustration is doing them harm. But grief feels so pure and right, even when it is standing in their way, and halting their progress. They'll hate me but I'm doing them a favour. I don't hate them. But seems I don't have the respect to be listened to. It's a mistake many have made and will make again, I don't judge them for it. You can't make people see, but you can explain and demonstrate so that in their more lucid moments they can see it for themselves. It's always a process that takes time. And I'm not asking anyone to like my tactics, or me.
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398. Online Ed
"Expectation and performance are not the same thing. An expected result may not materalise from a good performance. The campaign wa steady, it didn't set the heater alight but it avoided the very many Labour gaffes.
I expected the SNP to get 10 seats - 11 at the outside. The six seat result was disappointing in that context.
However having realised what was happening on election night my attention turned to vote share. A drop in actual vote would have been a disaster in my opinion, yes even with the debate exclusions.
As it transpired the SNP took an additional 2.2% of the national vote something like a 13% increase in it's own. When placed alongside the Lib Dem high profile and their subsequent Scottish vote collapse this is very good news.
If the SNP were to achieve a 13% increase in it's Holyrood vote the result would be dramatic, possibly leading to a further 6 seats.
I'll tell you all something else. My own mother, an SNP and independence supporter (converted from Labour) voted Labour.
Her reason was simple - to keep the Tories out.
Ask yourself why the BBC are openly aggressive whenever SNP spokemen mention Scottish Labour's refusal to accept the offer from the SNP to try to prevent the Tory government.
The campaign - good or bad - is over, but with the right media exposure these unguarded statements from senior Scottish Labour figures are dynamite.
Finally, Newsnight Scotland 11th May edition is now available to view. One thing I hadn't realised is that Glenn Campbell decided to speak on behalf of the SNP when he claimed that the party now accepted that the Tories had a mandate in Scotland and had dropped their original 'no mandate' claim.
I stand to be corrected, but in the following day's interview with Jackie Bird the First Minister reiterated tha SNP view that the Tories had no such mandate.
So - on whose authority did Glenn Campbell make this claim? "
An excellent analysis.
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397. Electric Hermit
"Even if we accept the faintly ludicrous proposition that the standing of the Scottish National Party might be affected in any way by anonymous comments on a blog such as this, what do you suppose might do the greatest putative harm?
Is it the odd comment here and there that might, by a considerable stretch of the imagination, be shoe-horned into a box labelled "anti-English"?
Or is it the relentless insistence by some that this is somehow so generalised among the population and pervasive in the party as to be a major issue?"
Perhaps too logical a question. Or is the indication of extreme devisiveness and spite amongst supposed SNP members an indication of things to come? I wonder if certain posters will think they have the right to vet other SNP members for campaigning in the coming election? Shall we foresee screaming and invective if everyone isn't properly submissive?
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420. At 3:11pm on 14 May 2010, Robin wrote:
Thanks Robin, good tactic, I will not take umbrage at your comment, as you must have agreed with the rest of mine. Many thanks for your help and support.
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349. GrannieAnne
"I tend to the belief that either you love and believe in your own nation or you don't. If you don't, nothing I say is going to make you do so."
So do I. Just in my case and apparently many others the nation they choose to believe in is the UK... and while you (and others) may deride this as "not a nation" its a nation older than many others on the planet!
(quite aside from the fact that england/scotland/wales are essentially all the same peoples in the first place)
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359 Online ED,
Well done sir keep up the very good work, I like you website and if it annoys "The Brigadier" (post 405) so much that he posts insults and tries to belittle the site then you are certainly doing something right. If memory serves me right it wasn't that long ago that the onionists come back to snp posts on this site was if you don't like it set up your own site, now you they have moved onto attack mode trying to belittle, what nice people they are!!
411 Eye Write,
"I'm nice and I've been trying to do you a favour. Not for me, I've actually got your best interests at heart."
Don't you realise that some people don't want you to look out for their best interests, who put you in charge all of a sudden????? If there has been 1 single poster this week that would put me off independence it would be your good self. (this is just my opinion so don't reply with personnel insults please)
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329. Allan J
"No we do not think we are better than the Citizens of England, just that we woke up to the truth a lot sooner than England has. The Westminster Government, will slash and burn in Scotland a lot lot more than they will in England."
Unfortunately, I very much fear this is true.
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417. eye_write
"Well done for not staying quiet then and hampering progress for the last trillion years (it would feel like it ;-). And congratulations for living that long. I fear another trill. may be needed before you grasp the basic nuances of human communication, GrannieAnne?
"
Perhaps during that time you'll grasp the basic naunces of political discussion instead of personal attack, but I doubt it.
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357. universality of cheese
"Yesterday's spectacle from the Labour seats was shameful. There are intelligent, rational, decent politicians amongst the Labour group who must cringe with embarrassment every time the yahoos start roaring whenever Salmond speaks. It's almost akin to the days of school fights when everyone would gather in a circle around those asserting their masculinity and roar abuse at their pals opponent. The more sleekit, cowardly runt would of course always manage a fly kick at their perceived enemy. Labour appear to have at minimum a dozen of these types.
If Labour at Westminster, can re-invent itself after the TB-GB years, then surely it's time Labour in Holyrood did the same? "
Dear me, yes! They are an embarrassment to the nation! I cringe at the sight of their behavior because it reflects on all of us. People come to Scotland, visit our parliament, and SEE this behavior!
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430. eye_write
(part 4)
Therefore, if nats are miscalled as ranters, would a rant in retaliation be a good idea? Would it kill your argument, so that the words are meaningless and the stereotype remains? (I don't have to be a 'genius' to figure this out.)
If you don't think you are coming across that way, yet others think you do, would you not at least think? If you were truly interested in their thoughts, would you wonder why, or jump to the assumption that all others must be wrong and deserve telling rudely?
And if you were faced with this response in turn, how would you feel?
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396. dubbieside
"I think both John Swinney and Alex Salmond thought that Goldies Tory anti-histamine retort was very good, just look at their reaction on the BBC i player."
They have the good grace to admit when an opponent makes a good joke. Spite and bile isn't their style and it WOULD be nice if Labour would use it as an example.
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424. Robin
"Also, I can't remember the context now (I don't think it was anything to do with Scotland) but I remember hearing a comment recently along the lines of "A multi-option referedum is what you have when you want to make sure you don't actually have to change anything".
"
So a comment you may have heard somewhere from someone (even you don't know who) is supposed to convince us that the SNP is no longer working towards independence?
Not a good argument. Nor is it supported by little details like what the SNP has actually done.
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Robin 424,
"is support for independence actually increasing?"
I beleive that there was a recent poll that if the Tories got into government which they have then a much bigger percentage of people said they would vote for independence.
Just passing on something that I read on this blog not that long ago.
So to answer your question, yes more and more every day this coalition lasts.
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#401 Alan
"UKIP supporter? I have never voted UKIP in my life (although I do have sympathy with their views on Europe)."
I did not claim you had, but how else can one regard your: "I would really like to vote UKIP but am concerned that such a move would only let Liebour slip back into power - assisted by their equally useless LibDem mates"?
"As for devolution - with the exception of NI - I do believe it to have been a waste of time and money."
Another flagship UKIP policy is to scrap devolution and return all four UK nations to direct rule from Westmidden. Would you suggest that devolution should be abandoned without the consent of the "locals"?
As it happens, and irrespective of the support or otherwise for full independence, all recent research - notably the 2009 Scottish Social Attitudes survey carried out by London-based NatCen - suggests well over 50% support for full full fiscal autonomy - much further than the Tweedles allowed Calman to go.
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#420. At 3:11pm on 14 May 2010, Robin wrote:
407. At 2:07pm on 14 May 2010, ambi wrote:
"#394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
"2. You take umbridge"
Umbridge? The location of an everyday soap opera of Unionist folk?
The BBC are sure to snap it up."
You mean, like "You take Umbridge and I'll Take The High Road" ?
You can take River City 'n all (sorry BBC)
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401. Alan
"Also for reconsideration must be the unsustainable number of public sector jobs created in Scotland by Labour (another disgraceful use of taxpayer money to buy votes). All this disproportionate waste has contributed to Labour's massive fiscal deficit and it is only reasonable that Scotland bear it's share of the pain to come."
No one has ever suggested that Scotland should not SHARE the pain. What some of us object to is the many statements BY THE TORIES that Scotland should take on MORE of the pain and a larger proportion of the cuts.
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394. Ron McArthur
"By all means campaign for Independance, putting over logical arguements will do your cause more good, than your current tactics. Give the poeple of Scotland the chance to see after all is said and done, after all the pros and cons have been argued, who they wish to follow and support. Accept the will of the people. "
Haven't you seen anything about the SNP' proposed referendum on Independence or Devo Max? The opposition to a debate on Scotland's constitutional future comes entirely from the Unionists.
No election to a Parliament can ever be on a single constitutional issue. There are so many other issues which properly need to be considered.
I am glad that you want there to be a proper debate, however. I suggest you do your bit to bring that about by urging your MSP to vote for the Referendum Bill.
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423. Electric Hermit
So, who would be up to the job of advising you? The sheer temerity of it... ;-)
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427. At 3:37pm on 14 May 2010, Saporian wrote:
394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
Sorry I won't repeat your rant, but I've never laughed so much in all my life. thank you.
My pleasure, I now know 2 people on this blog that appreciate humour.
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#429. At 3:38pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
"Many thanks for pointing that out and I appreciate it was the only thing you had to say. It is gratifing to know the rest was ok."
Yep, I thought you're own words did a much better demolition job on themselves than I ever could. Keep up the good work!
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431. At 3:44pm on 14 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
"399. Robin
"But, basically, when you're being squeezed you have to concentrate on hammering away at your core message - independence - or you make yourself irrelevant."
Since an independence referendum will never come from Westminster, you don't say how that would have kept them from being squeezed"
Yes, I did.
And I cited the example of the Greens who were sidelined, ignored and dismissed to a far greater degree than the SNP, but managed to make progress by sticking to their core message.
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436. eye_write
"They'll hate me but I'm doing them a favour. I don't hate them. But seems I don't have the respect to be listened to. It's a mistake many have made and will make again, I don't judge them for it. "
How self-righteous of you. We'll note your extreme superiority and graciousness in teaching us the error of our ways.
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430. eye_write
"So when someone accuses you of being shouty, do you
a) shout back 'I am NOT shouty!', or
b) explain quietly that you do not in fact have a tendency to shout, well, perhaps only if a unionist stands on your toe!' etc.?
(The later deftly undermines the accuser's assumption by referring to it using humour.)
It is plain to see that one response is intelligent, and one...well, not. Agreed?"
You might consider that yourself, eye-write or perhaps add in the words sneering and self-righteous.
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Hamish MacDonell can't bring himself to say ALEX Salmond
An interesting discussion of the BBC coverage of the FMQ--although I hardly think many people will be surprised by Hamish MacDonell's rudeness concerning the FM.
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428. Electric Hermit
"It is hardly the fault of the people of Scotland that you engender such personal animosity. I'm sure we have all met Englanders of this ilk. They will stand in the pub and openly denigrate Scotland and its people with all manner of ill-informed drivel. Then, as soon as someone suggests they might be happier if they went home, up goes the witch-cry of "anti-English" prejudice.
To paraphrase an old saying, "When in Rome, remember that you are in Rome!"."
Very well put.
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436. eye_write
Of course in the meantime, most of the lurkers will get it first, and can at least see that
1) there is a more progressive rational nationalism, it's the SNP's, and
2) the perma-angry nat posters have merely allowed frustration to colour their views.
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425. eye_write
"So, they say nationalists are jingoistic, resentful, bitter, petty, small minded, anti-English, and therefore ridiculous etc. "
You object to nationalists behaving in a way that is resentful, bitter, petty, and small-minded and then spend what must be a hundred posts behaving resentful, bitter, petty, and small-minded.
Do you REALLY think that has persuaded ANYONE watching this stooshie to become a member of such a political party?
I beg your pardon, but I seriously doubt it.
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433. At 3:49pm on 14 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
394. Ron McArthur
Why thank you for coming to Scotland and explaining to us how to run our business.
What business are you in Propaganda? by any chance, I remember your reference to Geobbels. If so, you have nothing to learn from me.
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438. GrannieAnne
You say submissive*. I say just not unbelievably and astoundingly supremely dumb :-)
-------------
* bitter tone
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401. Alan
"As for devolution ......... This must be considered inefficient and should be reconsidered. "
Democracy is fairly inefficient. Clearly the most efficient system is to have no Parliament at all! However, that's not how democracy works. Scotland has it's own Parliament because all political parties in Scotland (except yours) supported it - as did the Churches, the Unions, COSLA etc, and most importantly the people of Scotland by almost three quarters of the vote.
The Scottish Social Attitudes Survey found that only 9% of Scots preferred the option "Scotland should remain part of the UK without an elected parliament". You are part of that 9%. You are entitled to your view, but it is shared by only a tiny % of the people of Scotland.
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438. GrannieAnne
GrannieAnne's dictionary:
"submissive" - any action not raving, loony, raging, unrestrained, uncouth, untrained, unrefined, max volume, gripe-ridden and brashly and unattractively stompy ;-)
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428. At 3:38pm on 14 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
"It is hardly the fault of the people of Scotland that you engender such personal animosity." - So, you are suggesting that my parentage is creating animosity in myself and/or for others. So it's either all in my imagination or it does exist but its not the people of Scotlands fault?
"I'm sure we have all met Englanders of this ilk. They will stand in the pub and openly denigrate Scotland and its people with all manner of ill-informed drivel."
I totally agree and that is also an issue. However I was replying to your point about the problem in Scottish culture which you said didn't exist. You start comparing the issue to the English and saying they are just as bad or worse. Proving my point that it does exist and you are actually guilty of it.
"They might be happier if they went home". At present the UK is a home to all peoples of the UK no matter where they settle. Your comment here just goes to show the problem exists as it suggests Scotland is for the Scottish and the Scottish alone. Wow that actually sounds a soundbite from another Nationalist party in the UK. Shame.
In summary Electric Hermit you are a Buffoon. You definately seem to be one of these people im talking about. You seem to think this problem doesn't exist, then you say its "hardly the fault of the people of Scotland" and then you decend into nonsense. The SNP need to cut people like you off.
426. At 3:34pm on 14 May 2010, D1senfranchised wrote:
"I'd like you to consider one thing, though. Although you concede that many nationalists do not ascribe to this blame culture, you seem to imply that you feel it is part of a nationalist outlook, or that it should be associated with nationalism."
Apologies as I can see my comment may have implied that and that is not how I feel. What I meant to get across is that the SNP could be more active in trying to distance themselves away from the bigots and ensure that the party is not seen as a breeding ground for them. I'm not saying this is the case at present but the comments above by Electric Hermit (as an SNP supporter) do not help the party image.
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441. loveme2times
Up to you, of course. But I'll leave you the water all the same ;-)
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440. DrK
"So do I. Just in my case and apparently many others the nation they choose to believe in is the UK... and while you (and others) may deride this as "not a nation" its a nation older than many others on the planet!
(quite aside from the fact that england/scotland/wales are essentially all the same peoples in the first place)"
I agree that some consider the UK their nation. And you may well hate me because not only do I NOT consider your nation mine, in effect, I want yours torn apart. I do not think any argument from me would change your mind which is why I won't bother.
On a historical basis, you're wrong. England/Scotland and Wales were not all the same peoples and did not have the same languages, customs or laws in the first place. I don't know that has much to do with the current argument but is simply a fact and your asserting such doesn't make it so.
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412. Morrigan
"I started reading this blog in the hope of getting an insight into how the ‘ordinary’ Nationalist thought. It has been enlightening to say the least!"
What on earth made you think that people who spend their time on blogs are "ordinary"! :-) :-)
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Brian
Would it be to much to ask for yourself and the BBC in Scotland to retract the miss-information concerning the so called 'cuts' to NHS Glasgow staff, in which Iain Grey claimed that there would be 1200 nurses made redundant, to which on BBC Reporting Scotland at lunchtime Thursday put the number at 4000 (yes they did, I had to do a double take, but check the tapes for yourself)
Fact is, there is more money being spent by NHS GLasgow and that the health board are allowing staff levels in non front line departments to be reduced in an efficiency drive and that Between 2009 and 2012 they will have spent £350m on modernising hospitals and other facilities, equipment and support services. They are redesigning services, including a move for some services onto fewer sites, they have identified that they can provide the same high quality care for patients with fewer staff - 700 in 2010/11, rising to 1,252 over 18 months. The proposal from the board, yet to be signed off by the Scottish Government, would see a total of 1252 posts gradually disappear, these include 315 administrative and clerical staff, 180 facilities staff and 30 managers. Eight consultants' posts are also at risk.The reduction in manpower costs would not involve any compulsory redundancies and is expected to be gradual as people retired and moved on, with manpower levels being reached in 2013.
You will agree Brian this is somewhat different from the histerical outburst by Iain Grey and for some inexplicable reason reported unchecked, by you and your colleauges in the news department.
But dont take my word, why not check Greater Glasgow Health Board themselves instead of relying on newspapers and the Labour party
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445. eye_write
"If you don't think you are coming across that way, yet others think you do, would you not at least think? If you were truly interested in their thoughts, would you wonder why, or jump to the assumption that all others must be wrong and deserve telling rudely?"
eye-write, TRY asking your good self these questions.
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405. At 2:06pm on 14 May 2010, brigadierjohn wrote:
#359 online ed: "Half a million hits, eh?
No, half a million page views; 487,863 to be precise.
There is a difference between page views and hits. If it's hits you want then we have had an astonishing 3,388,923 hits - almost three and a half million.
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421. At 3:21pm on 14 May 2010, handclapping wrote:
"I will agree that more nats less cuts was a disaster whose perpetrator should be identified and locked away from any involvement in any future SNP campaign, if they still wish to campaign as a proper political party."
Actually, what I'm against is them campaigning like reg'lar political parties. When you've got limited time/access to the media - in the SNP's case, severely limited - you have to be repetitive, keep it simple and focus on what makes you different from all the other parties, to give people a reason to vote only for you, and for no-one else...
And despite having a huge advantage over the SNP in terms of the media. that's still what Labour did with their "...keep the Tories out" mantra. Because it works, and they know it works.
And their line wasn't even true - a Labour majority in Scotland is not enough to "keep the Tories out". Only independence can do that...
"439. At 4:04pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
420. At 3:11pm on 14 May 2010, Robin wrote:
Thanks Robin, good tactic, I will not take umbrage at your comment, as you must have agreed with the rest of mine. Many thanks for your help and support."
Sorry Ron, I hadn't actually read your post, I just saw the response to it and couldn't resist a cheap joke...
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456. Robin
"And I cited the example of the Greens who were sidelined, ignored and dismissed to a far greater degree than the SNP, but managed to make progress by sticking to their core message."
THEIR core message can be addressed in Westminster. Independence and a referendum on independence will NOT be addressed in Westminster. Saying they should campaign upon it did not in the least say how it would be effective--but think this if you like.
I am much more concerned at this point with coming campaigns that matter very much more than Westminster can ever matter. I know it's hard for unionists to fathom, but I don't much CARE about Westminster.
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461. eye_write
"the perma-angry nat posters have merely allowed frustration to colour their views."
I hope they see that and do not judge the party by your constant attacks. If anyone could have ever convinced me against the SNP, it would have been someone with the spite, ire and anger that you so constantly evince against fellow nationalists.
Fortunately, very, very few nationalists or SNP members (not always synonmous we must remember) behave in such a way toward their fellows.
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464. eye_write
"You say submissive*. I say just not unbelievably and astoundingly supremely dumb"
So I am, in your words, 'dumb'. So you apply an intelligence test to fellow SNP members. And what is the intelligence level that is high enough to meet your criteria?
Are you really so blind that you can't see the damage that you are doing? Or hopefully not. The fact is that IF you are a member of the SNP you have no such power. That I can assure anyone reading.
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414. GB
"Now i'm sure from your posts that you and many other Nationalists do not blame the English for Scotlands problems but not all Scots are the same"
Indeed, and those of us who roam across the UK political blogs note that posts like this from PB are not uncommon -
"Are there any Scotch older than that? I thought whisky and deep fried Mars bars saw them off at about 50?
On topic, independence won’t happen in the foreseeable future, unless there is a referendum in England which tells the Scots to get stuffed. The referendum is a pointless, irrelevant distraction from the pointless, irrelevant SNP. A more interesting question is, what if Labour win the most seats in Britain, but the Tories win far more seats in England and Wales? Will Southern England, the real victim of the union, tolerate yet another mostly Scottish government being foisted on it without its consent." -
However, most posters from England are just as decent as most posters from Scotland.
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463. Ron McArthur
"What business are you in Propaganda? by any chance, I remember your reference to Geobbels. If so, you have nothing to learn from me.
"
\
No YOU made the reference to Geobbels, I merely identified where you got your reference to the 'fact' that if one repeats a lie often enough people will believe it. That was directly from Geobbels. If you don't want your sources identified, don't use such shameful ones.
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470. oldnat
"What on earth made you think that people who spend their time on blogs are "ordinary"! :-) :-)"
Haha! An excellent point. Quite true in the thrust. Most of us are probably political anoraks and quite as far from the "ordinary" as you can get.
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447. At 4:21pm on 14 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
424. Robin
"Also, I can't remember the context now (I don't think it was anything to do with Scotland) but I remember hearing a comment recently along the lines of "A multi-option referedum is what you have when you want to make sure you don't actually have to change anything".
"
So a comment you may have heard somewhere from someone (even you don't know who) is supposed to convince us that the SNP is no longer working towards independence?
Not a good argument."
Yes it is and, as is perfectly clear from what you quoted, the comment is not specifically about the SNP's particular referendum plans, but a comment on the entire concept of multi-option referenda.
But thanks for the opportunity to explain further -
To "win" a referendum, you need majority support. In a Yes/No referendum, one side or the other will have a majority - unless an even number of people vote AND something ludicrously unlikely happens.
The more options you have, the harder it is for any one option to get majority support - and however unpopular the status quo happened to be at the time of this referendum, it's stretching credulity to think that an independence option would come close to winning a majority. But it would probably get enough support to ensure that even a "more devolution" option wouldn't get a majority either...
If you disagree, please explain why you think it's a good tactic as opposed to say, a Yes/No referendum or even campaigning for a majority of Westmister MPs as a mandate for independence - arithmentically, that's much easier to achieve than winning a majority in a PR system like the Scottish Parliament.
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I do wonder what response you would get if you went to the Republic of Ireland and told them that they were racist when they said that the English and Scots were wrong and responsible for the conquest and repression of that nation.
I don't suggest doing it, but all these comments about how mentioning that England may at some point have had some responsibility for something is racist. Anyone who believes that is welcome to, but it has nothing to do with racism and a lot to do with history and the current balance of political power.
You'll note that I include the Scots in the repression. We have profited by the repression and oppression of much of the world by the United Kingdom/Great Britain/whatever-it-is-decided-to-be-called-next.
And frankly, that is another reason why I want out of what I can only consider an alliance that tends to evil (and here comes eye-write to yell some more since that will no doubt offend some). Would England alone have gone into Iraq? Perhaps although I rather doubt it?
I believe with ABSOLUTE certainty that Scotland would not have.
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443. GrannieAnne
417. eye_write
Well done for not staying quiet then and hampering progress for the last trillion years (it would feel like it ;-). And congratulations for living that long. I fear another trill. may be needed before you grasp the basic nuances of human communication, GrannieAnne?
"Perhaps during that time you'll grasp the basic naunces of political discussion"
----
But they are exactly the same, GrannieAnne.
With sincerity, this could be your problem.
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457. GrannieAnne
Every one of us is able to learn from others, GrannieAnne. Or in your all your years, have you learned everything. In which of them did you achieve it?
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458. GrannieAnne
It's very petty to consider yourself above advice, GrannieAnne. It's another trait relentlessly hurled at nationalists. Not nice, but you do nothing to allay it.
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472. GrannieAnne
I know why you jump down any reasoned poster's throat and rebuff each one rudely. You feel it is OK to parade one's special nationalist frustrations forever and always because it means you have the right then to treat anyone and every non-fawning sympathiser with contempt.
I am at least trying to explain things to you. All you do is spit and shout at me.
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458. GrannieAnne
So, I'll take it you cannot actually refute the logic in that there post? :-)
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Eye-write, please drop it. It's getting embarrassing. You seriously need to step back and take a look at how you come across, because you make some reasonable points but they get lost under smug finger-wagging.
You are not the future of the SNP; no more am I; we are (part of) the present. Your children are the future (and mine, I hope). These are the minds you can guide and change. A "mummy knows best" attitude has no place on a public blog full of adults, even if some posters behave childishly.
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450. At 4:30pm on 14 May 2010, ambi wrote:
#420. At 3:11pm on 14 May 2010, Robin wrote:
407. At 2:07pm on 14 May 2010, ambi wrote:
"#394. At 12:39pm on 14 May 2010, Ron McArthur wrote:
"2. You take umbridge"
Umbridge? The location of an everyday soap opera of Unionist folk?
The BBC are sure to snap it up."
You mean, like "You take Umbridge and I'll Take The High Road" ?
You can take River City 'n all (sorry BBC)
Once again thanks: Question: Why do we use this blog. Answer: to get our point of view over and read by as many people as possible.
How do we achieve that, you can go the SNP way and smother the blog with a team of bloggers. Or, as I said before, I give good value for money, you can use others to help by responding to your comments. The eagle eyed, quickly spotted my error and jumped in with both feet. Should I take umbrage, why should I, they gave me exactly what I wanted. The sharper minded, saw the trap and avoided it. If you are a "One man band" like me, you need all the help you can get. Wee eck and I would get on great, he also knows what like it is to have do everything yourself. Once again thanks to all on this blog, only you can make it what it is. I love you all really, although I must admit, some more than others. It's great to see passion, commitment and true determination. Scots are braw fechters.
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476. GrannieAnne
Do you know the different between a positive and a negative, GrannieAnne?
Sulking does not help. I have explained to you (and ribbed you a little, but the unionists will do far worse than that) where you are genuinely going wrong. I have demonstrated to you how this does damage to the cause. But you would rather sulk than even address my point. And it is a very serious point. This old-fashioned reputation, which you foster, is possibly the biggest threat to the success of the struggle for independence.
The fact is the SNP does have an image problem, and stereotypically grievance-led posts like yours do very much add to it. They get in the way majorly of anyone else, other than committed nats, listening to our point of view. Yet you would rather ignore that and put your interest into telling me off, like you do to all other non-uber nat posters. That is simply crazy.
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477. GrannieAnne
"So I am, in your words, 'dumb'."
'You said it', I'm afraid.
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476. GrannieAnne
"Fortunately, very, very few nationalists or SNP members (not always synonmous we must remember) behave in such a way toward their fellows."
Is that where the in-breeding of attitude comes from?
If fellows are wrong, they are not immune from being wrong because they are the 'fellows'?. What a weird, weird view of life? How can it help anyone, or progress something called thinking.
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'Cuts' to NHS Glasgow staff, Iain Grey claimed. He's right but that's because in Glasgow they are spending so much on "wages" and "funds" at SPT also there has been lots of money put towards drugs :P there's not much leftover.
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482. GrannieAnne
You don't get it. Tarring any one group with the same narrow attitudes is.........god, is it worth typing this.
GrannieAnne, you are right, the moon is made of cheese.
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482. GrannieAnne
"repression, repression, repression"
Every last non-nat turned off.
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