Fa la la
In times of turmoil, I usually turn to that great sage and acute observer of the political scene, Lewis Carroll.
However, on this occasion, only W.S. Gilbert will suffice.
You know, I feel sure, the great song from Iolanthe in which Private Willis, while guarding the Palace of Westminster, offers his views on the politicians of the day.
Here's one classic:
When in that House MPs divide,
If they've a brain and cerebellum, too,
They've got to leave that brain outside,
And vote just as their leaders tell 'em to.
But his sharpest observation is to note:
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!
What would Private Willis make of our new UK Government which contrives to blend the two?
I know that members of the Liberal Democrats contrive to castigate their Labour and Tory rivals - do we still call the latter that? - as the "old parties", cheerfully ignoring their own prolonged history.
No deal
But still it is remarkable to see the party of Gladstone and the party of Disraeli conjoined in coalition.
"Remarkable" might not be the chosen description for some LibDem activists - and indeed some Tories.
Was there an alternative? The Lib Dems talked at length with Labour - but no deal emerged. One, because the numbers did not fully add up.
It would have taken a rainbow extending far beyond primary colours - and, even then, it is arguable that it would have been vulnerable to internal dissent and disquiet.
Two, there was a palpable and growing lassitude on the Labour side with regard to remaining in government.
They knew they had lost ground, substantially - and that was reflected in their wider party approach to the prospect of a deal.
Consequently, the Lib Dems felt they had no choice. Their rivals in Labour and the SNP - we definitely still call them both that - will continue to insist that there was: and that the LibDems have "inflicted" the Tories upon Scotland and the UK.
Nationalist 'wickedness'
Of all the reaction statements, I particularly loved the one issued in the name of Margaret Curran, Labour MP and (still) MSP.
Suggesting that the SNP can "barely hide their glee" at the Tories taking power, Ms Curran (or her ghost writer) provides the full, shocking list of Nationalist wickedness.
Apparently, they "stood candidates against Labour". The beasts. Further, they "fought to reduce the number of Labour MPs".
Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy.
Now, do I believe there was a degree of calculation in Alex Salmond's offer to support a Lib/Lab coalition? Yes, of course. Welcome to politics.
But it is not, primarily or even substantively, his responsibility that there is not a Lib/Lab coalion today.
That is, mostly, down to arithmetic: the small, insignificant fact that the Tories got many more votes and seats than Labour across Britain.
Great machine
Now we are to have a Liberal Democrat Secretary of State for Scotland. To return once more to G&S, it will be a source of innocent merriment to watch Danny Alexander occupy the office which his party has pledged to abolish.
The Scotland Office is not perhaps the great machine of state it once was (I know, I know, when precisely was that, Brian?).
But Jim Murphy transformed it into a form of embassy or, perhaps, High Commission, keeping a close watch on the Scottish government.
Perhaps Mr Alexander will perform a comparable role - although he will also have to ride point in defending the further spending cuts which are coming down the road.
As his Scottish colleagues are already saying privately, loadsaluck with that one.
It makes sense, I suppose, for that particular post to go to the Scottish Lib Dems.
At least, they can muster a football squad at Westminster - rather than the lone striker, David Mundell.
Apparently they agitated for this job. Presumably they hope that, in Scotland, they can mitigate the political damage which they fear may be coming their way as a result of forming an alliance with the relatively unpopular Scottish Tories.
As Private Willis would trill: Fa la la.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~56~RS~)
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A goverment that represents the majority of the UK, a revelation!
An cudos to the Tories for hosting LibDems in power; and why would a LibDem not make a good scottish secretary; they have a 12:1 advantage over the Tories in scotland.
Could this be the start of actual successful coalition politics?
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Brian is it just me, or does everyone at the BBC look quite glum.
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I think LibDems in Scotland have stuck their fingers in their ears and are going La La La. On the last thread I asked if any Scottish LibDem supporters out there have a view on the deal done and the impact it will have for their party north of the border, might have missed the response, any ScotLibDems out there?
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How coalesced is the coalition?
If it's true that Brown is quitting Parliament, then it will be by-election time in Kirkcaldy.
Will Con and Lib-dem both contest the seat?
You can make a good case for Con not to, remembering Willie Rennie's success next door and the popularity of the Conservative Party in West Fife!
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Alas, my fears for the nation's favorite Tory, David Mundell, have proved warranted. He has been cruelly sidelined. The words on the lips of people in the West of Scotland are 'Danny Who??'
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Poor David Mundell.
The one thing he had going for him in the election campaign was his 'high' profile as Shadow Scottish Secretary.
Next election, I foresee total Tartan Tory wipeout - again!
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That would be the same Ms Curran who told that bastion of North British democracy, the "Scottish" Sun that the SNP attempt to support a progressive alliance was "fantasy", would it, Brian?
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This Englishman realises that the game is up now and that Scotland will now depart the Union, sooner rather than later.
I think that there is an almost complete ignorance down in England amongst the people as to what is going on politically up in Scotland.
My fellow English are broadly speaking, not very interested in politics at the level whereby for instance, they would have a clue what you are talking about if you said 'the Unionist Parties'.
If pressed, they would probably say "Is that something to do with Northern Ireland?" and would be surprised if you replied "No, it refers to the three mainstream parties in England.
Anyway, what on earth is a 'Tweedle'?
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You do have to wonder when the penny will drop with the Conservatives.
Independent Scotland - Never ending power in England.
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"They campaigned for Labour to lose the election, they stood candidates against Labour, they repeatedly called for Gordon Brown to resign."
Margaret Curran is a one, isn't she? The SNP stood against Labour! Well, well, well, Salmond has a bit of a cheek thinking the SNP can put candidates up against the Labour Party.
Twitter @JohnMcDonaldish
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Brian, I must congratulate you. At lunch time on the radio you managed to do a whole piece on the potential westminster/edinburgh clash points without actually mentioning the incumbent Scottish Government at all.
I'm sure in BBC terms that gets you lots of brownie points. In general the Radio Scotland coverage of the new government of occupation in london seems to have been devoid of much or indeed contained any Scottish angles. Silly me, I thought that that was your reason for being. But it seems your duty these days is simply to give us the Westminster spin in a Scottish accent! Lets be done with it and call yourselves EBC Radio north Britain.
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@eye-write
From the previous thread
If I am standing there with a bucket of leeches then you might be justified in saying to yourself. "No. He might have another plan for those invertebrates. I shall reserve my opinion"
If, however, I point to Bob the Leech Flinger and say "This man's actions exemplify all that is good and right about my intentions" then you would be justified in believing the worst of me.
Mr Cameron has pointed to Hammersmith and Fulham as the way for "compassionate conservatism"
To quote the article
'George Osborne says the work they have done since then will be a "model" for a new Conservative government, while Cameron has singled them out as a council he is especially "proud" of.'
So, if we examine that Council's policy and practices then we can justifiablY judge Mr Cameron's intentions for Government.
We are not dealing with the unknown.
- Selling off homeless shelters to property developers
- The homeless have to "prove" they have nowhere to go
- They charge for home-care, in breech of a promise
- They increased the charge for Meals on Wheels
- Selling off Council homes is on the agenda, despite years of proof that this is a bad idea
- The local park stops amenities for the average resident to put on Polo for the wealthy
- Council tax is cut for the wealthy disproportionate to the average
Cameron's reaction?
"When I look at the record of what the Conservatives have done here in Hammersmith and Fulham, far from being embarrassed as the Conservative leader, I'm proud of what they're doing."
I think we can judge him
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Brians Blog says "with the relatively unpopular Scottish Tories"
Dear Brian missed this the first time i read tour blog. "Relatively unpopular". Brian that has to be the singlarly largest underestimate of all time.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8677137.stm
Personally I think Brown brought shame not just on Fife but on the whole of Scotland.
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Have the cuts started at the BBC news desk?
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Brian,
Thanks for the link to the page proclaiming the new viceroy. Let's hope he achieves his stated aim of abolishing himself PDQ. In the meantime, it has to be admitted that it is difficult to see how he could be worse than his predecessor.
The quote from his colleague, Alistair Carmichael, is also illuminating: "This is a deal we have done to protect Liberal values and to protect Scotland because the Labour party did not have the commitment to speak to us seriously."
Am I alone in finding the suggestion of a protectorate chilling? The last European ones I recall ended in tears, as I suspect might this one.
The second part of statement, though, does confirm the duplicity of "Scottish" Labour.
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I hope that our esteemed blogger will take an early opportunity to ask the new Secretary of State for Scotland whether he sees himself as Scotland's man in the Cabinet or the Cabinet's man for (if not 'in') Scotland.
P.S. What chance that Nick Clegg - having been prepared to compromise all principles hitherto expressed to sate his self-serving ambition - will not even be selected as candidate for the next General Election?
This coalition will surely consign the LibDems to electoral obscurity for much of the remainder of the century...
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Ho, Hum. A new era but the same long wait to read anything. Over an hour and still no responses to be seen. Is this the best that we can expect? How can other blogs manage? Are the carrier pigeons underfed?
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"Consequently, the Lib Dems felt they had no choice. Their rivals in Labour and the SNP - we definitely still call them both that - will continue to insist that there was: and that the LibDems have "inflicted" the Tories upon Scotland and the UK."
Good idea, Brian! If you're going to rewrite history it is probably easier to do it before the ink is even dry. Unfortunately for your brave Orwellian effort, I'm pretty sure most of us will not so easily forget that it was the British Labour Party which was most vociferous in its opposition to the progressive alliance proposed by Alex Salmond.
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History Repeats.
Scotland once again has its very own “Toom Tabard” in the shape of an illiberal undemocrat.
What a can of worms. Can anyone see our new vassal to the Tory PM really challenging Tory policy in Scotland? Time will tell but I doubt it, he will have to compromise(as he sees it) or collaborate(as the Scottish public will see it). There will be disputes and The new Scottish secretary will have to, bend the knee and pay homage to his Tory master, just as Balliol of old.
If anyone doubts this.
The media position in Scotland will largely reflect British Labours view of upcoming policy decisions and events, as it always does. So it will be interesting what Labours reactions will be going forward and if they can avoid mixed messages ie one stance in Westminster and another in the Scottish parliament. T
If anyone doubts the negative impact in Scotland. The North ( N England and Scotland) always takes the brunt of the interest the South. The UK government and economy and policy are only geared to the interests of the South. If anyone has an example to the contrary I’d like to see it.
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In the previous blog in response to: 407. Sheneval
"Whilst part of what you say is true, I think it is a bit unfair to suggest that the Tories will pick on the Scots."
410. At 10:29am on 12 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
"There is nothing unfair about it. He has every reason to pick on the Scots. We have given his party no support (and even his LibDem partners somewhat limited support although I doubt he cares about that one way or the other).
Since he HAS to make cuts somewhere the place to cut that will obviously place the fewest Tory seats at risk is in Scotland with only one seat here. Whats more with the extreme resentment of the English toward Scotland, he might well gain in his own heartland by punishing the Scots. Take a look at the screams for him to do exactly that in a lot of newspapers and political blogs."
I think you are missing something here:
1. David Cameron is a pragmatist - he has just proved this with his decision to form a coalition with the Lib Dems which involved compromise affecting policies in his manifesto.
2. Do you really expect Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems to sit back and allow the Tories to single out Scotland for worse cuts than the north of England or Wales has to endure, remembering that 400,000+ people in Scotland voted for the Lib Dems at the election, or are you suggesting that that is part of the deal for the Lib Dems getting into the coalition.
3. The right wing newspapers and political bloggers, including many, if not most, on this one have been screaming their invective for years - do you really think that either the politicians or the ordinary voters take the slightest notice of their views.
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So Nick Clegg is Deputy PM, but if that is all that he is, he is going to be bored to tears.
Even John Prescott had to be given other duties, and I cannot believe that Call Me Master (as Cameron surely is to Clegg) will be any more eager to let loose the reins of power and authority than was Tony Blair.
Clegg and Blair - two notional non-Tories who out-Tory the Tories.
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"Of all the reaction statements, I particularly loved the one issued in the name of Margaret Curran, Labour MP and (still) MSP."
Some may chide you for taking the proverbial out of Maggie "The Mouth" Curran. But I, at least, understand that she presents a target that is hardly avoidable.
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Aye! Richt!
Correct me if I'm wrong, Brian, but does not Conservative mean --- Err!conservative? So how does that fit in with Vote for Dave, "For Change"?
So when Dave resists, "liberal ideas", now what does Nick's liberal outlook deal with it?
(What does liberal mean again)?
How will they sort it out I wonder?
Ah! Yes, our friends, G & S again -
First they pass a new law -
By this ingenious law,
If any two shall quarrel,
They may not fight
With falchions bright
(Which seemed to him immoral);
But each a card shall draw,
And he who draws the lowest
Shall (so 'twas said)
Be thenceforth dead--
In fact, a legal "ghoest"
(When exigence of rhyme compels,
Orthography forgoes her spells,
And "ghost" is written "ghoest").
Ahem! Yes! Well! Mibbie!
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Love it! Good post, Brian.
Slainte
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"Now, do I believe there was a degree of calculation in Alex Salmond's offer to support a Lib/Lab coalition? Yes, of course. Welcome to politics.
But it is not, primarily or even substantively, his responsibility that there is not a Lib/Lab coalion today.
That is, mostly, down to arithmetic: the small, insignificant fact that the Tories got many more votes and seats than Labour across Britain."
Delighted as I am to have lived to see the day Brian Taylor publicly exposed one of the liars in the ranks of "Scottish" Labour my joy is more than somewhat tempered by the disingenuous sting in the tail. It was not the anonymous and indifferent force of arithmetic that scuppered the progressive alliance. Credit for this goes to the massed ranks of the British Labour Party's North British section - with dishonourable mention going to Jim Murphy, John Reid, Ian Gray (he's happy to get any kind of mention), Douglas Alexander, Tom Harris and, of course, Maggie " Can youse upra back hear mi?" Curran.
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"At least, they can muster a football squad at Westminster - rather than the lone striker, David Mundell."
Lone what was that, Brian? Where would you be without the obfuscatory power of the gentle euphemism, eh?
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Brian,
I turn to The Bard,
Sic game is now owre aften play'd;
There's monie a creditable stock
O' decent, honest, fawsont folk,
Are riven out baith root and branch,
Some rascal's pridefu' greed to quench,
Wha thinks to knit himsel the faster
In favor wi' some gentle master,
Wha, aiblins thrang a parliamentin',
For Britain's guid his saul indentin'.
Caesar.
Haith, lad, ye little ken about it:
For Britain's guid! guid faith! I doubt it.
Say rather, gaun as Premiers lead him:
An' saying aye or no 's they bid him:
At operas an' plays parading,
Mortgaging, gambling, masquerading:
Or maybe, in a frolic daft,
To Hague or Calais taks a waft,
To make a tour an' tak a whirl,
To learn bon ton, an' see the worl'.
There at Vienna or Versailles,
He rives his father's auld entails;
Or by Madrid he taks the rout,
To thrum guitars an' fecht wi' nowt;
Or down the Italian vista startles,
Whore-hunting amang groves o' myrtles
Then bowses drumlie German-water,
To mak himsel look fair an' fatter,
An' purge the bitter ga's an' cankers
O' curst Venetian bores an' chancres.
For Britain's guid! For her destruction!
Wi' dissipation, feud an' faction.
...."
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7. Aiki Doki
"...any ScotLibDems out there?"
You'll need to speak up. Maggie Curran's hailing a cab.
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#4 Gary Hay has said exactly what I was going to say, although I was going to be slightly kinder to you Brian, for being the first journalist to at least mention that Labour lied by saying only they could stop the Tories. If that were really true, then clearly we stand no chance of keeping the Tories out while part of the union. The message is clear, and Scotland must pay attention when the referendum comes back into play at Holyrood:
Only independence can stop the Tories
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14:00 LIVE Scottish Parliameny:
Today on the Parliament Channel
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8. superscot85
"...the Conservative Party in West Fife!"
I believe they are both very nice people.
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#3 "why would a LibDem not make a good scottish secretary; they have a 12:1 advantage over the Tories in scotland"
Since the Lib Dems favour PR, then from their point of view they achieved only 2.2% more than the Tories, hardly an endorsement.
Scotland is now governed by it's fourth most popular party, with a Scottish Sec. belonging to the third most popular party.
If that's the governance we achieve from the UK's version of democracy then bring on independence.
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10. Jim Stevens
"Alas, my fears for the nation's favorite Tory, David Mundell, have proved warranted. He has been cruelly sidelined. The words on the lips of people in the West of Scotland are 'Danny Who??'"
Don't worry. I'm sure the new boy will be able to recite the lines provided by Conservative Central Office just as well as David Mundell.
Danny Alexander has a vastly bigger problem. Some people might mistake him for Dougie Alexander.
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18. cj8652
Alert! Irony circuits failing! Check system.
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20. Gary Hay
Only in the Scottish branch (twig)
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13. JohnConstable
"Anyway, what on earth is a 'Tweedle'?"
The twins from Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass, Tweedledum and Tweedledee. There are various version of this, all of which reference the lack of distinction between the unionist parties - at least from a Scottish perspective. My favoured version is -
Tweedledum - British Labour Party
Tweedledee - Conservative Party
Tweedledem - Have a guess!
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In the GE Labour trawled the electoral register and harvested the postal vote. Beware the same tactic in 2011.
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The new government has some benefits with Brown and Murphy off the scene.
Danny Alexander seems to be a sensible kind of a bloke who could make a good Scottish Secretary and we won't have to listen to Murphy at Scottish Questions any more, with his shallow, yahboo, gotcha, grandstanding, antagonistic, style.
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#13 JohnConstable
"I think that there is an almost complete ignorance down in England amongst the people as to what is going on politically up in Scotland."
Gracious of you to admit it. The one thing that might postpone it is full fiscal autonomy, making the HoC England's parliament and replacing the HoL by an elected federal senate with equal representation of the four home nations for foreign affairs and defence. Mr Cameron might have the nous to attempt the former but the latter would be over his dead body, especially with BoJo as a shoe-in for English FM.
"Anyway, what on earth is a 'Tweedle'?"
See Brian's reference to Lewis Carroll above. The politer term for the two London Tory parties has been red and blue Tweedles for a while. L-D abandonment of their federalist policies resulted in their making up the triumvirate. For a more detailed exposition, see the CalMerc's Ten things Holyrood can teach Westminster about hung parliaments.
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A side issue really. The language of Westminster politics has always been exclusive ( ie excluding) not inclusive especially if you're not from the South. For example Theresa May is now the 'Home Secretary' but where is 'Home' even before devolution the Old Secretary of State for Scotland discharged the duties in Scotland that the 'Home Secretary' did in England. So Theresa May isn't looking after my home. If the Home Secretary deals with matters at 'Home' and the Foreign Secretary deals with matters not at 'Home' then that could conceivably include Scotland and save on the Scottish Secretary??? Or perhaps the language simply anticipates independence.
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#6 a_scottish_voice, afternoon, no you are not alone.
listening to radio Scotland this ,morning I thought someone had died, the only thing missing was the funeral durges.
they only cheered up when they reported about the con man from months ago getting the jail.
Sid.
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#13. At 12:46pm on 12 May 2010, JohnConstable wrote:
1 - "This Englishman realises that the game is up now and that Scotland will now depart the Union, sooner rather than later".
We can but hope.
2 - "I think that there is an almost complete ignorance down in England amongst the people as to what is going on politically up in Scotland".
It is not them being uninterested, it is not them being ignorant, thereof. It is when either not being interested or ignorant they presume to assume they know best and propagate the many mythical beliefs se dearly heard and oft expressed that it, to lapse into my native tongue, "gans richt up wir nebs an dirls wir lugs", (goes right up our noses and deafens our ears).
Anyway, what on earth is a 'Tweedle'?
There is no Tweedle -
It is the mythicac identical twins from a poem in, "Alice through the looking Glass - see below.
Tweedledum and Tweedledee
Agreed to have a battle;
For Tweedledum said Tweedledee
Had spoiled his nice new rattle.
Just then flew down a monstrous crow,
As black as a tar-barrel;
Which frightened both the heroes so,
They quite forgot their quarrel.
So it represents parties who always agee, but thus agree to disagree. Due to that black crow, though, they never do battle.
In Scotland the version introduces another sibling and is triplets called Tweedledee, Tweedledom & Tweedledem.
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Why is Politics Scotland on BBC2 TWO Scotland showing coverage of the self-same Cameron-Clegg press conference as is already being shown on BBC ONE?
I get it - Cameron is PM, Clegg is his poodle. You don't need to tell me twice.
Heaven forfend, I might even tune in to STV - oh, the horror!
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33. Electric Hermit
"This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules. "
Seems historical allusions to a certain monarch who famously tried to halt the tide are not favoured by our moderators. Maybe they just couldn't be bothered looking it up.
Cnut the Great
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Another chance to see Why Didn't Scots Vote Tory? on BBC PARLIAMENT this evening (7pm), although it might as well now be subtitled and Why Will Scots Not Vote LibDem At The Next Election?
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Has the funding run out for the reluctant expat consortium ?.
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I don't know my G & S.
When I saw the title of today's blog, I misread it and thought that the Banana Splits were on the agenda.
Of course, that would have been Tra la la
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England gets the goldmine, Scotland gets the shaft.
Newsnet Scotland
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Some mischief making, methinks, in appointing a LibDem to be Scottish Secretary.
Maybe Call Me Dave thinks that, by having a LibDem face associated with announcing all the 'nasties' to the Scottish people, his own party might benefit and be able to oust a few of the ScotLibDems at the next election.
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Some onionist coward refered my #2 and #4 because it decries Labour as the pitiful whelps they are. All of your posturing and lies didn't save Scotland from Tory rule and so long as I draw breath I'll never let anyone forget it.
You are an embarrassment to Scotland.
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#20. At 1:02pm on 12 May 2010, Gary Hay wrote:
"Have the cuts started at the BBC news desk"?
Nah! I've told you before. The BBC is part of the, "Establishment". Now, when the government changes, the Civil Servants in Westminster do NOT change but must, instantly, swap allegiance to whatever party has gained office. Thus it is the UK BBC does the same - except that is, in Scotland where Labour still hold sway. Thus the general Establishment line is, as dictated by the new Government, "Scotland is irrelevant", but locally they can do as they please and be pro-labour.
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The Scottish Tories aren't particularly unpopular.
If they cut the apron strings and returned to being an independent party, allied to but not answerable to, THE Conservative Party, the might merit consideration.
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#1 I cannot envisage any international court recognizing this arrangement. Every independent country can extend its international borders by 200 miles - the cod war with Iceland which the Brits lost.
#6 & #16 I think the muppets at BBC Scotland actually think they have won. Gloat is the word. They definitely have when it comes to expenses - see how your license fee goes! May explain why the press review on Newsnight Scotland never mentions the Herald.
Scotland has a large number of public sector employees who without doubt will be made redundant by the condems. Never thought Scottish turkeys would vote for Christmas. They have been conned by self serving Labour politicians.
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Dear Brian,
please allow me to reply to your post in detail.
'Progressive Alliance':
"Was there an alternative? The Lib Dems talked at length with Labour - but no deal emerged. One, because the numbers did not fully add up.
It would have taken a rainbow extending far beyond primary colours - and, even then, it is arguable that it would have been vulnerable to internal dissent and disquiet."
First of all it was always clear that it would take more than the Lab/Lib MP's to form the so called 'progressive alliance', the fact that the SNP intimated they would be willing to participate along with Plaid and the NI parties should have siginified that the numbers did add up.
Secondly, the idea that this alliance would have been any more unstable than the ConDem coalition strikes me as a little strange given the stark differences (supposed at any rate) between the Lib Dems and the Tories.
Would it not be just as likely for the more extreme of the left leaning Libs and right leaning Tories to vote down their own legislation?
Pure and simply, Labour and the Lib Dems couldn't get their act together to sort out a deal for party political reasons and nothing to do with their constituents wishes in Scotland.
Labour's Duplicity:
"Two, there was a palpable and growing lassitude on the Labour side with regard to remaining in government.
They knew they had lost ground, substantially - and that was reflected in their wider party approach to the prospect of a deal.
Consequently, the Lib Dems felt they had no choice. Their rivals in Labour and the SNP - we definitely still call them both that - will continue to insist that there was: and that the LibDems have "inflicted" the Tories upon Scotland and the UK."
No Brian, the Lib Dems and Labour both inflicted the Tories on Scotland, Labour does not get to be absolved of their responsibilty in this. The Labour partys disinterest in taking up government was purely for party political reasons, solely interested in regaining power at Westminster and to hell with their contituents they vowed to protect from the Tories, also refusing to work with the SNP in the interests of Scotland, and finally so they don't have to take responsibility in cleaning up their own mess.
Labour Avoiding Their Responsibilty:
"Of all the reaction statements, I particularly loved the one issued in the name of Margaret Curran, Labour MP and (still) MSP.
Suggesting that the SNP can "barely hide their glee" at the Tories taking power, Ms Curran (or her ghost writer) provides the full, shocking list of Nationalist wickedness.
Apparently, they "stood candidates against Labour". The beasts. Further, they "fought to reduce the number of Labour MPs"."
Brian, why do you insist on airing such warped Labour press releases, or is it only to highlight the hypocricy? I also see the revisionism of the past few days has begun so that Labour will be seen as having played no part in handing Scotland a Tory goverment, this must not be allowed to happen.
Ms Curran we were told vote Labour or get Tory, many voted Labour and got Tory, please explain Ms Curran.
Please explain your colleagues stating that they would rather a Tory government than work with the SNP in an alliance.
The voters listened to your message of fear and trusted you to stay true to your word, that you would protect them from a Tory government. You dismissed the opportunity out of hand. The electorate would have been better electing MP's that truly had Scotland's interests at heart, not just party and power at Westminster.
SNP Offer of Progressive Alliance:
"Now, do I believe there was a degree of calculation in Alex Salmond's offer to support a Lib/Lab coalition? Yes, of course. Welcome to politics.
But it is not, primarily or even substantively, his responsibility that there is not a Lib/Lab coalion today.
That is, mostly, down to arithmetic: the small, insignificant fact that the Tories got many more votes and seats than Labour across Britain."
It is not the SNP's fault whatsoever, they offered and were refused out of hand, where is the fault in that Brian?
Danny Alexander SoS:
"But Jim Murphy transformed it into a form of embassy or, perhaps, High Commission, keeping a close watch on the Scottish government.
Perhaps Mr Alexander will perform a comparable role - although he will also have to ride point in defending the further spending cuts which are coming down the road."
"Apparently they agitated for this job. Presumably they hope that, in Scotland, they can mitigate the political damage which they fear may be coming their way as a result of forming an alliance with the relatively unpopular Scottish Tories."
More fool the Lib Dems, to take full responsibility for the coming cuts in Scotland whether through Tory insistence or not seems to be a strange tactic. We all know that the cuts are coming, why then insist on being the public figure for inflicting those when it may not even have been what you or your party would have wished to do ahd they solely be in government?
Quite possibly Mr Alexander is on a hiding to nothing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
And I am glad that you never mentioned the word "hypocrite" or that Margaret Curran HAPPILY ushered in the Tories along with her Labour mp pals.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
From Skeletor to Lurch, the Scotland Office is surely a graveyard for ambition - little to no power, with the only role being to deliver bad news.
Still LibDems cannot be choosers - this is likely to be the only occasion this century when the Party has any role in Government!
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410. At 10:29am on 12 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
"There is nothing unfair about it. He has every reason to pick on the Scots. We have given his party no support (and even his LibDem partners somewhat limited support although I doubt he cares about that one way or the other).
Since he HAS to make cuts somewhere the place to cut that will obviously place the fewest Tory seats at risk is in Scotland with only one seat here. Whats more with the extreme resentment of the English toward Scotland, he might well gain in his own heartland by punishing the Scots. Take a look at the screams for him to do exactly that in a lot of newspapers and political blogs."
'Whats more with the extreme resentment of the English toward Scotland, he might well gain in his own heartland by punishing the Scots'
That has to be the most irrational statement I've ever read on this blog (and there have been quite a few). How can anyone really believe that the English will be dancing in the streets as soon as some Scottish public services are cut? And if cuts have to be made across the board, how is it punishing/singling out Scotland to make cuts there?
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Honestly, Brian, I can't understand why you bother with this blog.
Whatever you write about, the ever-present nationalists on here just repeat their same old nonsense. All trying to come across as intelligent and witty.
All failing.
This is easily one of the most absurd message boards on the net.
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#26. At 1:28pm on 12 May 2010, Sheneval wrote:
You miss the whole point of the matter. The system is biased against all three countries that have devolved parliaments. The method of gathering in the Treasury's income and how the funds coming back to the countries of the UK are set-up to favour first England but more so London.
Let us look at London first. It gets funds as London, It gets more as English Local authorities but it then gets more by many London functions being set up and treated as, "Local Authorities", (including for funding).
So what of the Devolved countries? We get a capped block grant by Barnett Fotmula, end of story.
So we have every one of the English MPs also representing their own constituency for UK matters but also for English Domestic affairs AND they dole out the funds to the Devolved countries. Those London Authorities that are NOT local councils have the right to raise money by PPP/PPI schemes. Just last week, Uncle Borris, (who wants to cut Scotland's funding), oversaw the Transport for London authority buy the shares of the PPI company that dealt with the London Tubes Authoroty so that the maintenance for part of the crossrail moved in house. This for a paltry £310million. However, as TfL is also an Authority it is using PPP/PPI funding for the purchase.
Is it getting clearer now?
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#48, portcharlotte
Re Home Secretary, even in England both title and role are contentious - Secretary of State for the Home Counties is how I have heard it put.
Indeed, the majority of Cabinet posts are only applicable to England (or England and Wales) - cf. Health Secretary, whose jurisdiction is England alone, just as THE National Health Service delivers health services only in England and does not include NHS Scotland, NHS Wales or Health & Social Care in Northern Ireland.
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Margaret Curran: Two Jobs - One Big House - Zero Intelligence
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From Betsans Blog:
"The new administration will "offer" a referendum on further Welsh devolution. Fair to say the answer will be yes please - the question, of course, is when.
A commission to consider the West Lothian Question - or English votes for English laws. Given the geographical distribution of party support across the UK at the election, this is a useful marker for the Tory backbenches in particular."
And yet the three tweedles will still oppose a referendum here on our constitutional future, how can that possibly be justified?
"Nuclear - early indications were that an "agree to disagree" position between the parties, coupled with the appointment of nuclear-sceptic Liberal Democrat Chris Huhne as Secretary of State for Energy and Environment led to concerns that the future of Wylfa B might be in jeopardy. The pro-nuclear lobby can breathe a little easier - agree to disagree turns out to mean that the Lib Dems will abstain on the key planning legislation to enable the new generation of nuclear stations - which means the Tories should be able to get it passed."
Thankfully not in Scotland where there is no need for them, unless of course they intend to force the issue with planning permission being devolved?
"More equal constituencies - likely to mean a reduction in the number of Welsh MPs."
Consequently this would also see a reduction in Scottish MP's also.
"Fixed term parliaments of five years - this, as has already been pointed out elsewhere, puts the next General election in the same month as the Assembly election AFTER next, or May 2015. That seems a long way off at this stage however..."
Fine in a majority government, however what happens if the Con/Lib coalition fails or there is a vote of confidence? Do we just bungle along until the next fixed elextion,I think not.
Speaking of which, one of the first acts to be passed by the ConDems is to increase the percentage of MP's required to carry a vote of no confidence from 50% plus i.e. a simple majority, to 55%.
Deja vu with 1979 and all that, the Tories with the help of the Libs are rigging the system to maintain power if it came down to it, how very democratic!
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52. Electric Hermit
Pity, but I'm afraid it gave me an image of someone standing on the shore with his back to the onrushing tsunami, bragging about "ten years of continuous growth"
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From previous thread:
#381 eye_write
"Electric Hermit and everyone please read, thanks."
I'm sure that everyone will take your views under advisement. I do think you should recognise, though, that some might wonder why you adopt such a conciliatory voice for those who oppose independence whilst offering strident criticism and supercilious dismissal to those who share your desire for independence but have the temerity to express it differently.
I fully understand and agree with your view that reasoned debate is, usually, preferable to enmity and abuse but, since we live under a system whose institutions have been completely debased by liars, thieves and fraudsters, many of whom have just been re-elected to Westminster, then I have to say that we find ourselves in the unusual position of being governed by unprincipled opportunists who are no better than common criminals. To my mind, such a corrupt system deserves all the abuse that can be heaped upon it!
I agree with some of what you say, but I think you have a way to go before you're in a position to dismiss genuine expressions of frustration and anger because they don't meet a standard of 'presentation' set by you. I don't think you've faired too well in the exposition of a theory tested to destruction by a New Labour Government during its fraudulent, 13-year tenure.
Are we to sanitize every word for fear of offending genteel, southern neighbours? Do you honestly think that our opinions, beliefs, ambitions or desires will gain any ground against a tidal wave of north-bound insults, abuse, xenophobia and jingoism? If you think that this is the work of a few loud-mouthed nutters then, I'm afraid, your mistaken. These feelings of resentment were openly espoused, encouraged and promoted by Unionist politicians, journalists and broadcasters, many of whom, to their everlasting shame, are Scots. Can you, honestly, see any evidence that our desire for parity would carry an ounce of weight in the deliberations of English politicians whose primary concern is the preservation of their power in England? The simple truth is that, whatever our political preferences, we get what England elects and they couldn't give a flying fart how that affects anyone but themselves!
Politicians are in the business of creating manageable divisions within society so that, when the need arises, they can turn one against the other to their advantage.
At post #407, Sheneval says, "Cameron may prove to be different, particulalry when hampered by the LIb Dems, or perhaps just because he believes differently :-) - he is certainly saying different things. He will, I think, try to hammer the underclass and those that can work but won't, but I'm not to sure that he will receive too much criticism for that unless he drives tham to commit crimes that affect the rest of us."
This illustrates the ease with which some may be persuaded that their personal success owes less to the time, effort and expense that they've invested than to the benevolence of self-serving politicians. For the most part, they're quite happy to divorce themselves from the notion that the true worth of any society is measured by the weight of its concern for the least fortunate of its members. So, the class-system is further refined until we have little difficulty in adopting the obscene language of caste and the 'underclass' become 'untouchables'.
Liberty! Fraternity! Equality!
My arse!
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Brown's agent told the BBC that Brown isn't stepping down as an MP! How very strange.
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Oh come on! A sense of proportion, please. It's no use just lashing out at everyone. Make up your minds who the bad guys really are, Labour, Tory, or Lib-Dem. Or are you really, really saying that outside of the SNP everyone is anti-Scottish, gagging to do us down, hating us, patronising us, eating our children? Really?
I have this sneaking feeling (no, make that absolute certainty) that whatever the new Government does, proposes or even thinks will be twisted and misrepresented into a savage/traitorous/English/Unionist assault upon "the People of Scotland."
The respectable face of nationalism hardly gets a look-in here, does it? And the ranters and ravers wonder why "the People of Scotland" are laughing at them. But it's beyond a joke.
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Can we also stop using the term 'progressive alliance'? There is nothing progressive about the Labour party in it's current state, and anyone wanting to saddle the country (there, I said it, the UK is a country) with 5 more years of Brown should be waiting for the men in white coats.
Mind you, as soon as he quit, every politician and his dog was gushing about him. It seems they have memories of goldfish.
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#56 Online Ed
"Newsnet Scotland"
Thanks for that link, Ed, and the heads-up to Falconer's musings, which I had missed.
There's a good quote from him in yesterday's Irish Evening Echo's Senior Labour figures cast doubt on Lib Dem alliance:
"But if it’s plain that they can and the only way that one can do a deal with the Liberal Democrats was offering things that wouldn’t be acceptable to a majority in the Labour Party, then I think we’ve got to stop."
Not a word about the interest of any of the four home nations. Like almost all of the others, just what's best for his party.
Most posting here will at the very least have reservations about the blue-yellow Tweedle deal, but however much we may dislike what we anticipate they're planning to do it would be hard to argue that either Cameron or Clegg have put party before what they believe to be in the best interests of England.
What a pity that "Scottish" Labour care only about themselves.
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Seeing as no UK candidate seemed to be up to scratch, perhaps we can follow footballs lead, and import a PM. Offer them a massive pay packet with nice bonuses, and watch the UK go from strength to strength. Or not.
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In response to the contention that the Poll Tax was equally fair to all people in the last thread.
No, it was equally UNfair to all people BUT Just A YEAR SOONER in Scotland than anywhere else in these supposedly united isles. Small detail there.
However, that is history. Now, right not, the Tories have very good reason to make harsher cuts than elsewhere because it would cost the Tories little if anything in seats. They have to make cuts somewhere. Why not make swingeing ones in Scotland and spare everyone else?
And what will happen? Our supposed union-members down south will inform us that it's perfectly fair.
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60. They Will Never Take Our Freedom
"If they cut the apron strings and returned to being an independent party, allied to but not answerable to, THE Conservative Party, the might merit consideration."
You're right. I know people who would vote for a SCOTTISH conservative political party. What they will not vote is Tory.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
46. hamish42
"Danny Alexander seems to be a sensible kind of a bloke who could make a good Scottish Secretary"
How is one good at a totally useless and outdated post?
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26. Sheneval
"1. David Cameron is a pragmatist - he has just proved this with his decision to form a coalition with the Lib Dems which involved compromise affecting policies in his manifesto.
He is a pragmatist and targetting Scotland is exactly pragmatic since it is to his party's benefit. You did not present a single argument that it is not.
2. Do you really expect Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems to sit back and allow the Tories to single out Scotland for worse cuts than the north of England or Wales has to endure, remembering that 400,000+ people in Scotland voted for the Lib Dems at the election, or are you suggesting that that is part of the deal for the Lib Dems getting into the coalition.
Do you really think there is a thing Nick Clegg could do a thing about it IF he wants to. And I have yet to see Nick Clegg show the slightest concern about Scotland.
3. The right wing newspapers and political bloggers, including many, if not most, on this one have been screaming their invective for years - do you really think that either the politicians or the ordinary voters take the slightest notice of their views."
Yes, I think they are perfectly well aware of the anti-Scottish feelings of a large part (a majority?) of their voters and are perfectly willing to take advantage of that. It's called politics.
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For the benefit of everyone
#2
Margaret Curran is little more than a disingenious & concieted Labour toady.
Even with every seat in Scotland the Tories majority would have trounced Labour. She and her party are utterly pathetic in thier clamour to blame another party for thier own miserable failings in the UK.
Why arn't you holding these people to account Brian? You can tell US she's being dinsingenious, but WE already know that.
How about asking her in public with the cameras rolling? How about asking every Labour MP who LIED to keep thier post what they meant by keeping the Tories out when the arithmetic simply doesn't work.
Scotland needs more Labour MP's like I need a hole in my head.
#4
Are you going to do your Job and ask Ian Gray what the point of voting Labour is, when even if all 60 Scottish seats were Labour they couldn't hope to overturn the Tory majority?
The people of Scotland were sold a pack of lies by both the Lib Dems and Labour.
They insited a vote for them would keep the Tories out and it failed.
We now know that no matter which way Scotland votes, we will always have to make-do with what the English want. Do your job and hold these people to account Brian, you owe your conscience that much.
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Just listening to Jeremy Hunt, SoS for culture, media, sport and the olympics. Apparently Cameron has told him that the olympics are very important and his secretarys first priority.
The reason: in the coming years of austerity the games will provide some much needed relief and a rallying point for 'the country' to feel one and happy.
The olympic games are a sporting event, and I dislike the idea of them being used to further political aims, particularly given their financial cost to the UK at large.
Listening to him talk of the olympics and what Cameron wants him to make them represent, I couldn't help thinking of Roman emperors and the colosseum, give the masses what they want eh?
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#68 RE
"This is easily one of the most absurd message boards on the net."
And yet you are one of its most frequent and vocal contributors.
Anything constructive or enlightening to contribute instead?
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Reluctant-Scot "Whatever you write about, the ever-present nationalists on here just repeat their same old nonsense. All trying to come across as intelligent and witty".
This could be said about you though you'd have to delete the intelligent and witty aspect.
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68. Reluctant-Expat
"This is easily one of the most absurd message boards on the net."
I dare say you're doing your best.
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68. Reluctant-Expat
Go suck a lemon
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68. Reluctant-Expat
Go suck a lemon. It might sweeten you.
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"Apparently they [LDs] agitated for this job. Presumably they hope that, in Scotland, they can mitigate the political damage which they fear may be coming their way as a result of forming an alliance with the relatively unpopular Scottish Tories."
I suspect it's far more to do with this UK Parliament going to have a fixed term of 5 years - with the election being on the first Thursday of May 2015. "Co-incidentally", that is the same day as the elections for the Scottish Parliament. The LDs have seen how Murphy transformed the SoS job into a political campaigning machine paid for by the taxpayers.
They hope to use that to their advantage.
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I would like to take this oportunity to wish Dick Clameron all the best in his new role as PM.
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67. Denno
"And if cuts have to be made across the board, how is it punishing/singling out Scotland to make cuts there?"
So long as those cuts accord with the priorities established by our government there is no problem at all. But that's not how it will happen now that the British Labour Party has helped the Tories into power. The priorities will be British nationalist priorities. Money will, for example, be squandered on WMD while vulnerable people are denied essential services.
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71. minuend
"Margaret Curran: Two Jobs - One Big House - Zero Intelligence"
She may keep one of the first. Which would let her get another of the second. But there's not much multiplication can do for the last.
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68. At 3:37pm on 12 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"Whatever you write about, the ever-present nationalists on here just repeat their same old nonsense. All trying to come across as intelligent and witty."
Fair cop R-E, you could never never be accused of the latter.
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67. Denno
"How can anyone really believe that the English will be dancing in the streets as soon as some Scottish public services are cut? "
After reading anti-Scottish comments from you and some of your compatriots--I believe it pretty easily. And Cameron has already said that he supports extra cuts for Scotland so where is it "across the board"?
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[59. At 2:58pm on 12 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
Nah! I've told you before. The BBC is part of the, "Establishment". Now, when the government changes, the Civil Servants in Westminster do NOT change but must, instantly, swap allegiance to whatever party has gained office.]
No, you're wrong there. We're expected to have allegiance to *no* party while we're at work. We treat them all the same while we're at our desks.
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74. albamac
"Are we to sanitize every word for fear of offending genteel, southern neighbours? Do you honestly think that our opinions, beliefs, ambitions or desires will gain any ground against a tidal wave of north-bound insults, abuse, xenophobia and jingoism? "
May I answer that question for you from my point of view?
No, we will not. I have ceased to worry about offending when I point out the abuse, xenophobia and jingoism (as you so well state it) that is so constantly rained down upon us.
I have grown very tired of being told that I have to tiptoe to avoid offending our southern neighbors whilst at the same time we are bombarded with exactly that from them.
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#68 most of which emanate from you.
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#92 oldnat
If we win our referendum before then, that'll scupper their little plan. 8-)
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94 Electric Hermit
'The priorities will be British nationalist priorities. Money will, for example, be squandered on WMD while vulnerable people are denied essential services.'
How about we wait and see? To my mind, there are so many inefficiencies in the way public services are run in this country, that savings can be made without effecting services too greatly.
And would Labour be any better/worse? The glib interpretation of "Labout=GOOD, Tories=BAD" doesn't really hold too much water in the modern world. I wouldn't have voted for either (or the Lib Dems, living abroad I took the easy route of not voting), but now we have a new government, why don't we give them a chance to prove themselves as inept as the last one, instead of just assuming they will be.
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#68 - "This is easily one of the most absurd message boards on the net."
Must be what attracts you to it, then.
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If the UK parliament is going to be five years fixed term, that means it will co-incide with Scottish elections won't it?
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#80 - "No, it was equally UNfair to all people BUT Just A YEAR SOONER in Scotland than anywhere else in these supposedly united isles. Small detail there.
However, that is history."
Yes, it is history. But remember who wrote the version of history that asserts Scotland was used as a guinea pig, etc.
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GrannieAnne - Can you give me any instances when I have been anti-Scottish? Anti-SNP maybe, but that's not the same thing.
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Fixed term parliaments
Westminster 5 years from May 2010
Holyrood 4 years from May 2011
And no doubt still no referundum beforehand, unless the mix from 2011 changes......
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I wonder if Annabelle Goldie will thank Iain Gray tomorrow at FMQ's for his party's support in bringing the Tories into power?
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76. brigadierjohn
"Or are you really, really saying that outside of the SNP everyone is anti-Scottish, gagging to do us down, hating us, patronising us, eating our children? Really?"
Are we saying that? Presumably you can read. So, are we?
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77. Denno
"Can we also stop using the term 'progressive alliance'? There is nothing progressive about the Labour party in it's current state..."
But it is true that the British Labour Party was offered an alliance with the progressive parties. Which is why it is so called.
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74. albamac
"Are we to sanitize every word for fear of offending genteel, southern neighbours? Do you honestly think that our opinions, beliefs, ambitions or desires will gain any ground against a tidal wave of north-bound insults, abuse, xenophobia and jingoism? "
Having read the recent comments in bloggs by not only the far right in england but even "middle england" (honestly read some of them in the Daily Telegraph bloggs) My own personal self control to hold my tongue to avoid causing upset and appear anti english is waning fast. Infact I think it has gone altogether.
These people genuinely think WE are a sub species who are all on benefits depend on handouts and are envious of England (aye right)
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79. Denno
"Seeing as no UK candidate seemed to be up to scratch, perhaps we can follow footballs lead, and import a PM."
There were no candidates for PM. There could not be because...
Never mind. I realise I'm wasting my times.
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81. GrannieAnne
"You're right. I know people who would vote for a SCOTTISH conservative political party."
The Scottish Conservative Party, when there was justification for calling it such, is the only party ever to have taken a majority of the popular vote in Scotland. This was about sixty years ago, if memory serves.
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76. brigadierjohn
"I have this sneaking feeling (no, make that absolute certainty) that whatever the new Government does, proposes or even thinks will be twisted and misrepresented into a savage/traitorous/English/Unionist assault upon "the People of Scotland.""
Other than the "English" bit, you are doubtless right. But, at even when you are partially correct you fail to make any point. Had the progressive coalition not been sabotaged by the British Labour Party, voters in England would have had precisely the same complaint.
The union doesn't work. It's broken' Fatally flawed. Some of us saw this decades ago. Is there any hope you might be on the verge of catching up?
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83. GrannieAnne
"How is one good at a totally useless and outdated post? "
By being totally useless and outdated.
Let's face it, the LibDems were doing the Tories a favour by taking this off their hands.
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Whilst I am fearful of this coalition and the amount of damage that might be done to the country, it does mean the Lib Dems have been finally called out to show their true colours - and they are blue.
Now the whole of the UK can see for themselves the negative consequences of having the Lib Dems in government. Hopefully it'l be a short lived government either way.
Think its safe to say the Lib Dems can look forward to 4th place in the Holyrood election next year. This works out perfectly for Labour and the SNP who can surely now paint themselves up here as "Scottish" parties - think we're looking at Labour slightly edging out the SNP next year with the Tories and Lib Dems miles behind.
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######################################################################
68. At 3:37pm on 12 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
Honestly, Brian, I can't understand why you bother with this blog.
Whatever you write about, the ever-present nationalists on here just repeat their same old nonsense. All trying to come across as intelligent and witty.
All failing.
This is easily one of the most absurd message boards on the net.
#######################################################################
And yet there you are commenting on it, one of the most banal depressed comments yet seen. In the top right hand corner of your screen there is a wee red square with a cross in it, click it.....there thats better your gone already now stay there.
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105. ForteanJo
"Yes, it is history. But remember who wrote the version of history that asserts Scotland was used as a guinea pig, etc."
And what would YOU call it, introducing the filthy poll tax in Scotland a full year before the rest of the country.
I call it using Scotland as a guinea pig.
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#68. At 3:37pm on 12 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"This is easily one of the most absurd message boards on the net".
Aye! It's a wee thing called freedom of speech. This seems a concept which, by your posting, is rather foreign to your strange psyche. The idea is free exchange of political views between disparate politically motivated people. Not, as you think, a place to act like a demented football hooligan drowning out the other teams supporters. Now calm down - there's a good chap.
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#117
'think we're looking at Labour slightly edging out the SNP next year with the Tories and Lib Dems miles behind'
Not once I'm through with FAILbour they won't. I'm not going to let ANYONE forget the lies they told to try and keep thier seats.
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I'm fascinated by the idea of equalising the electorate in individual constituencies: Shetland, Orkney, Caithness, Sutherland and the Western Isles would just about muster a large enough electorate to form one constituency. Wouldn't like to have to check the MP's travel claims...
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#117 SCL
Would that be the same Labour party that said vote Labour or you'll get Tory, when many did so they still got Tory?
Would that be the same Labour party that refused to work with the SNP and therefore scuppered any chance of a progressive alliance, thereby allowing the Tories into government, something the Labour party vowed to prevent ifyou voted for them?
In fact, would that be the same Labour party that openly stated that the Tories should form the next government, dismissing out of hand any other alternative, selling out their Scottish electorate, the one they told to vote for them to protect them from a Tory government, that Labour party?
Far from edging out the SNP you are tarnished with selling out the Scottish electorate and should rightly pay the price at the polls.
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#117 SCL
Any pretence that the North British Labour party can call themselves Scottish are over. They are British. Let us never forget they let the Tories in.
Freedom
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106. Denno
"GrannieAnne - Can you give me any instances when I have been anti-Scottish? "
Ah, so ranting on and on about how stupid we are to support a Scottish party and informing us that this is a UK election and thus has nothing to do with Scotland (so how dare we stick our oar in) isn't anti-Scottish.
I take leave to differ.
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Oh, Labour has been telling everyone and their brother they they'll wipe out the SNP in the next Holyrood election. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
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You know how you sometimes get a song running through your head without you thinking about it? Well a wee snatch of a well known ditty keeps running through my head. it goes:-
"Rebellious Scots to crush, stopping their mad onrush". I wonder why?
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115. Electric Hermit
"Had the progressive coalition not been sabotaged by the British Labour Party, voters in England would have had precisely the same complaint.
The union doesn't work. It's broken' Fatally flawed. Some of us saw this decades ago. Is there any hope you might be on the verge of catching up?"
They also would have screamed a lot louder with a lot more vicious invective. Anyone who saw what was said at even the possibility, knows that.
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#73. At 4:10pm on 12 May 2010, Cash Hughes wrote:
52. Electric Hermit
■"Seems historical allusions to a certain monarch who famously tried to halt the tide"
Pity, but I'm afraid it gave me an image of someone standing on the shore with his back to the onrushing tsunami, bragging about "ten years of continuous growth"
I though it had just been modded by a dsyslexic modder who thought it said ...
...
...
...
...
...
...
... something it shouldn't have.
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Ever since Terry Wogan was scathing about the easy job BBC newsreaders have the BBC seems to be in defensive mode, sending all of their newsreaders on outside broadcasts to make them look worth the money they are paid. All this is doing is showing up the said newsreaders for what they are - newsreaders! To have Jackie bird in Westminster interviewing politicians was an insult to the viewers. The one with Nick Robinson lasted about 20 seconds with Robinson making a joke out of Ms Bird's tame question. I wonder who made up her script?
Don't the BBC realise we have been watching the real professionals interviewing all sorts of politicians for month and they make Jackie Bird's efforts look less than amateurish.
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#71. At 3:43pm on 12 May 2010, minuend wrote:
"Margaret Curran: Two Jobs - One Big House - Zero Intelligence".
I wonder if the good lady will take her cue from that nice Mr Salmond and donate one of her duel saleries to charity - what do you think folks?
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#76. At 4:32pm on 12 May 2010, brigadierjohn wrote:
"Labour, Tory, or Lib-Dem. Or are you really, really saying that outside of the SNP everyone is anti-Scottish, gagging to do us down, hating us, patronising us, eating our children? Really?"
YES
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#83 GrannieAnne wrote:
46. hamish42
"Danny Alexander seems to be a sensible kind of a bloke who could make a good Scottish Secretary"
How is one good at a totally useless and outdated post?
And he agreed with that sentiment before he accepted the poisoned chalice, which is hard to understand, unless he's just init for the money. He seems not to be obnoxious, unlike his predecessor, so hopefully we have been spared that.
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#76. At 4:32pm on 12 May 2010, brigadierjohn wrote:
"wonder why "the People of Scotland" are laughing at them. But it's beyond a joke".
Well! They had better make the most of the laughter - there will be little to laugh at in the quite near future.
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Given they now have no influence at Westminster then surely it's Labour that is now completely irrelevant in Scotland.
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Public Sector Jobs account for 33% of the scottish workforce. God help us all when the Danny al-AXE-ander starts the cull. I wonder how many jobs will be cut in Central and Southern England.
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#86. At 5:20pm on 12 May 2010, ScotInNotts wrote:
"Just listening to Jeremy Hunt, SoS for culture, media, sport and the olympics. Apparently Cameron has told him that the olympics are very important and his secretarys first priority".
Not to mention that simple little fact that the Games are, the English Olympics, more often described as "THE LONDON OLYMPICS". What does that say about the respect promised to Scotland by the top boy of the duo of ex-Eton playing field, "Political Giants"?
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My post at on Mr Taylor's remarks re Ms Curran #82 was removed by the moderators. I cannot understand why since the post at #85 was also about Ms Curran and and used language about Ms Curran that I certainly did not.
Although I did include a (very mild) criticism of the BBC.
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35. At 9:23pm on 12 May 2010, Wee-Scamp wrote:
Given they now have no influence at Westminster then surely it's Labour that is now completely irrelevant in Scotland.
Completely spot on comment. Had to laugh at Ian (who) gray telling us on TV tonight that its up to "them" to stop the tories and their cuts. How exactly mr Gray. You are no longer in power in Westminster or Scotland. you are irrelevant.
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I see the pantomime Trojan Horse is back on stage, but which end is which? That stuff can't come out of both, can it? Is it a contest to see which one of you can do most damage to the SNP? It's you pair that are the laughing stock, but for how much longer will the rational Nats tolerate your ravings.
Have a good night frothing and fuming at everyone. I'll have my laughs tomorow.
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Well done Trish Marwick!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8677137.stm
"A nationalist MSP has taken the unusual step of calling for opposition politician Gordon Brown to be given the Freedom of Fife.
Tricia Marwick, SNP MSP for Central Fife, said Mr Brown should be awarded for his "outstanding public service". "
You don't have to like the politics of someone in another party - but recognising their achievements shows maturity of judgement.
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33% of the jobs are in the public sector.
Where is the Westminster plan for growing the private sector, they've only had, what, 60 years.
In the meantime many Scots have to leave their country to pursue their careers as the industries that they're educated for, at Scottish universities paid for by Scottish tax payers, do not exist or are not sufficiently developed. We then lose their contribution both financially and in developing the countries industries. This has been allowed to continue for far to long with no action from Westminster to stop this.
Scotland is being drained of it's resources in more ways than one.
Yet we are told we are better off hobbled in the union. Time to run our own affairs, time for independence.
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I wonder if annabel has contacted the First Minister yet to explain the new rules regarding attacks on the LibDems, "Now Alex I can't be seen to be attacking the LibDems in the Scottish Parliament so it's up to you to give them a good kicking. If you need any information feel free to ask and I'm sure David will be most obliging. Of Course it's still open season on Labour and we can both put the boot into that apology for a leader, Ian Gray"
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Auld Bob wrote:
"131. At 9:07pm on 12 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
#71. At 3:43pm on 12 May 2010, minuend wrote:
"Margaret Curran: Two Jobs - One Big House - Zero Intelligence".
I wonder if the good lady will take her cue from that nice Mr Salmond and donate one of her duel saleries to charity - what do you think folks?"
Tell me how you got this passed the moderators. My post said much the same re Salmond and role models, amongst other things, but ended up in the sin bin.
How come when you write something relevant to the content of the blog it is binned but rant on in ever decreasing circles about same old, same old and it is OK
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#98. At 5:44pm on 12 May 2010, Morrigan wrote:
"No, you're wrong there. We're expected to have allegiance to *no* party while we're at work. We treat them all the same while we're at our desks".
You are talking to a 50odd year ex-service Industrial Civil Servant who didn't sit in a cosy office, (we did spend time in the lab), but much time in very hazardous environs of heavy industry, radioactive, bio-hazard and chemical hazard situations. Been there, done that, but the Tee Shirt didn't survive.
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#139 cj8652
"Had to laugh at Ian (who) gray telling us on TV tonight that its up to "them" to stop the tories and their cuts. How exactly mr Gray. You are no longer in power in Westminster or Scotland. you are irrelevant."
They had their one and only opportunity to prevent the Tories implementing their plans for the inevitable cuts to come, they dismissed it out of hand for sheer party interest, not the Scottish electorate.
The Scottish electorate should be made aware and reminded of this fact lest they be betrayed again by the Labour party.
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Would you trust labour in future with Scotland's economy?
Would you currently trust Margaret Cullen to go to the chippie for a poke of chips?
Answer no, on both counts!
Never mind, I am sure Margaret will provide outstanding value the moment she open her gob to give her maiden speech.
C McK
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137. Auld Bob
"the English Olympics, more often described as "THE LONDON OLYMPICS"."
No. They are the London Olympics. London gets the £1bn benefit at the expense of everyone else. There is no benefit to the citizens of Cornwall or Berwick in these games either - though, like us, they pay for them.
That the governance of England seems to me (as an outside observer) intensely flawed, and transfers resources from the poor to the rich areas of that country, is sad, but that's a matter for them.
Our concern needs to be that the UK Government has decided to classify the spend as "non-attributable", and thus deny Scotland (Wales & NI too) the appropriate Barnett consequentials.
Unless there is a surprising change of mind by the new UK Government, what will become clear is that all UK parties want to transfer resources to London. Our friends in England outside their capital are rather devoid of choice to remedy that. Scotland can.
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#119 - " introducing the filthy poll tax in Scotland a full year before the rest of the country."
Well, you might find it helpful to quote the Scottish Labour mantra, others take a more pragmatic view about the poll tax.
There were many winners under the poll tax, as the rates system was broken. If the re-evaluation had went ahead without the introduction of the poll tax, many would have found their rates going through the roof. That was the only reason the poll tax was introduced in Scotland before the rest of the UK, nothing to do with experiments to see if it worked ok.
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I heard Cameron and Clegg talking today about them working towards a 'common purpose'
I hope this isn't a reference to the government funded organisation of this name which aims to put an end to democracy in this country and change it to a totalitarian police state instead.
Interesting times ahead.
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127. Auld Bob
""Rebellious Scots to crush, stopping their mad onrush"
[PEDANT MODE]
Auld Bob my dear man,
Google reliably informs me the correct lyrics are
"Lord, grant that Marshal Wade, may by thy mighty aid, victory bring. May he sedition hush, and like a torrent rush, rebellious Scots to crush, God Save the Queen." [/PEDANT MODE]
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Electric Hermit - I'm well aware we don't elect a Prime Minister (in theory). However, in practice, it is the leaders that people tend to vote for and associate with the election. If it weren't, would anyone really be able to complain that there Lib Dem MP's have given us a Tory PM? If we were just electing 650 local MP's to represent us, surely no one would have any concern about the national picture?
Granny -
'Ah, so ranting on and on about how stupid we are to support a Scottish party and informing us that this is a UK election and thus has nothing to do with Scotland (so how dare we stick our oar in) isn't anti-Scottish.
I take leave to differ.'
Ok, lets break that down. IF (and that's a big if) I have been ranting on about how stupid you are to support a Scottish party (and I don't believe I have ever used the word stupid to describe SNP supporters), that would mean I'm against, what, less than 20% of Scots. Hardly anti-Scottish. I also never said the election had nothing to do with Scots. As a UK election, it clearly does, as Scotland is part of the UK. I merely wished to point out that this was a UK wide election, not four separate elections throughout the UK, and as such it is a UK (not a Scottish) government that is being elected.
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146. At 9:57pm on 12 May 2010, ScotInNotts wrote:
#139 cj8652
"Had to laugh at Ian (who) gray telling us on TV tonight that its up to "them" to stop the tories and their cuts. How exactly mr Gray. You are no longer in power in Westminster or Scotland. you are irrelevant."
They had their one and only opportunity to prevent the Tories implementing their plans for the inevitable cuts to come, they dismissed it out of hand for sheer party interest, not the Scottish electorate.
The Scottish electorate should be made aware and reminded of this fact lest they be betrayed again by the Labour party.
Since when have the Scottish Labour/Tories-Lib Dems(ConDem) had the guts to do anything for Scotland, without the approval of their London masters.
The only party that has Scotland's interests at heart is the SNP. Love or hate AS, he and the rest of the SNP has always put Scotland and her people first. No other party can even come close to that.
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Yes, come on, Brian: ask Margaret Curran which of her salaries she is going to donate to charity. Alex Salmond was asked about his double salary more times than Margaret Curran can count* during the last three years and especially in the election campaign, even though it was public knowledge that he only accepted one of the salaries. Were the Labour propagandists and their friends in the media hoping some of the muck would stick? Well, we know where Mr Salmond's second salary went. Where is Ms Curran's going?
*As we know she is not so good at counting, since she thinks the SNP's 6 seats would have made all the difference to Labour staying in power and fulfilling their empty promise to the Scottish electorate.
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I feel cheated. I watched the Scottish Leaders' Debates on the telly. It seemed that we were being given a choice of possible 'leaders of Scotland', from a Westminster point-of-view: i.e. Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy, Shadow Scottish Secretary David Mundell, and that nice LibDem chap Alistair Carmichael - or choose none of the above and vote SNP for a Scotland that need not be led from Westminster. Now we've got a Scottish Secretary who wasn't even on the debates. What's that about? OK, I can see all sorts of reasons why a LibDem was offered as scapegoat, but why not Alistair Carmichael, after he appeared to be being groomed for the post? Was it because he is actually quite effective and they don't want to lose him at the next election? I'm not being cynical: I'm genuinely puzzled and wondered if anybody had any insights.
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After reading some of the rants and skipping over others one wonders whose side they are fighting for! Their own integrity or Scotlands benefit?
Whose the enemy of the SNP? All of the Unionist parties only at varying degrees.
1st Labour who are the strongest as they have the media support.
2nd Conservative who will have a limited media backing.
3rd LibDems no media support.
In my humble opinion/reasoning it makes sense to attack the Labour party head on as the ConDems are pals and will fight Labour as well as the SNP.
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"But it is not, primarily or even substantively, his responsibility that there is not a Lib/Lab coalion today. That is, mostly, down to arithmetic"
No, it's mostly down to cowardly Labour MPs undermining the coalition talks before they got started by saying they would block it to prevent PR. The Lib Dems were left with no choice but to deal with the Tories, and at a disadvantage since Labour's loudmouthed idiots made it incredibly obvious to the Tories that they had the Lib Dems over a barrel.
The coalition could have had a reasonably comfortable majority of 15, plenty to get a PR bill through then secure a more favourable and fairer progressive result at a new election, preventing a Tory majority for generations. Remember the names below in 2011, Scotland:
COWARDS OF SCOTLAND
destroyers of the progressive alliance
Douglas Alexander MP (Paisley And Renfrewshire South)
Brian Donohoe MP (Central Ayrshire)
Jim Murphy MP (East Renfrewshire)
Margaret Curran MP (Glasgow East)
Tom Harris MP (Glasgow South)
John Reid
Johann Lamont MSP
Iain Grey MSP
Jack McConnell MSP
Lord Foulkes Of Cumnock MSP (and House Of Lords)
and at least 30 more UK-wide.
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141. oldnat
I was granted the freedom of Richmond. All it meant was that I could march through it with swords drawn, bayonets fixed, flags unfurled and drums beating. Slightly more impressive than it sounds because, unlike Gordon, I was in the company of brave and honourable men.
I suppose getting the keys to 'The Kingdom' may be some consolation but Gordon, if he came across his moral compass while packing, may ask himself this, "what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul?." (Matthew 16:26)
I don't think he'd bother, though. He got better than market rate for it.
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Is it true now Gordon Brown is no longer PM or Labour leader that Ian Gray has to think for himself?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
67. At 3:36pm on 12 May 2010, Denno wrote:
410. At 10:29am on 12 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
"There is nothing unfair about it. He has every reason to pick on the Scots. We have given his party no support (and even his LibDem partners somewhat limited support although I doubt he cares about that one way or the other).
Since he HAS to make cuts somewhere the place to cut that will obviously place the fewest Tory seats at risk is in Scotland with only one seat here. Whats more with the extreme resentment of the English toward Scotland, he might well gain in his own heartland by punishing the Scots. Take a look at the screams for him to do exactly that in a lot of newspapers and political blogs."
'Whats more with the extreme resentment of the English toward Scotland, he might well gain in his own heartland by punishing the Scots'
That has to be the most irrational statement I've ever read on this blog (and there have been quite a few). How can anyone really believe that the English will be dancing in the streets as soon as some Scottish public services are cut? And if cuts have to be made across the board, how is it punishing/singling out Scotland to make cuts there?
Everything GrannieAnne says is relevent, because that is exacly what will happen. The Tories love to hammer the Scots every chance they get.
The only thing that will save Scotland is full independence, I am not saying things will not be hard, but one thing is for sure, it will be a lot gentler than what the ConDem's plan will do.
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152. Denno
"as such it is a UK (not a Scottish) government that is being elected."
We could dance around that one forever! :)
Who was elected to govern where? Confused? Tune into the next episode of Lucky Numbers!
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#111. At 8:04pm on 12 May 2010, cj8652 wrote:
"These people genuinely think WE are a sub species who are all on benefits depend on handouts and are envious of England".
Indeed it is never hard to find these insults on the web -
Here's a couple I just found at random.
Isn't there some sort of ancient deportation law we
could use against the Scots to repatriate them with
the homeland that they claim to love so much? Would
certainly sort out a lot of problems with the present
government, and we wouldn't have to put up with them
cheering the opposition any time England plays
footie!
I'm up for St Georges day as an ENGLISH national
holiday, while the rest of the 'union' carry on
working to pay back a bit of the massive subsidy that
the English fork out to keep up their benefits..
There are countless other comments and many with much worse sentiments.
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152. Denno
"As a UK election, it clearly does, as Scotland is part of the UK."
I'm reminded of futile arguments with Christians at University. Debate tends to be fairly meaningless when there is no agreement on the basic tenets.
Scot Nats know that we are currently part of the UK but consider that Scotland is a distinct political entity and that MPs from Scotland should always place Scotland's interests first.
Brit Nats want Scotland to be subordinate to the British interest.
These are irreconcilable positions. However, what matters is how the majority of Scots who are not thirled absolutely to either position view the dichotomy. For that we need to wait for a year - though if there is any polling in the meantime, we may get some indication.
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Another interesting if inaccurate article from the Gaurdian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/12/election-2010-devolution
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Labour apologists trying to put all the blame on the Lib Dems for letting the Tories in, even your academic buddy has partially foresaken you:
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/John-Curtice-In-the-end.6288127.jp
"Arithmetically, a deal to form a coalition government between Labour and the Liberal Democrats was just about possible following the election result. Together with their regular Northern Ireland allies, they had 319 votes between them. That was only a little short of the 323 needed, given the five Sinn Fein MPs will not take their seats.
It is a gap that could have been bridged with the help of the Nationalists and the new Green MP – so long as that government was committed to changing an electoral system that does those parties no favours either.
But yesterday, many a Labour MP used the endless air time provided by the rolling news channels to indicate they opposed any such deal. Supping with the Liberal Democrat and Nationalist devil was not a price they were willing to pay to stay in power – especially if it meant steps towards introducing proportional representation."
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An slightly surreal article, taking a poll in a pub:
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Reds-yellows-greens-but-no.6289549.jp
My favourite bit:
"Art student Shaun Fraser, 19, was only six, but that didn't
stop him shaking his head in disgust when asked if he'd seen the
news.
"I came here because I needed a drink after seeing that,"
he said, raising a pint of lager to his lips.
"They don't represent the views of Scotland."
Mr Fraser voted Labour because his father voted Labour, and his father before him.
"I'm from a Labour family. I hate the Tories, that's the way I
was brought up," he said."
Essentially it boils down to 'and his father before him and his father before him, none of us paused to think who we were voting for or why.'
I despair sometimes, I really do.
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I dont understand why everyone says the Brown left with dignity. He was selfish to the end. Work it back from when he arrived in Kirkcaldy. To achieve that he had to resign at 7pm to make sure he caught the flight on time! So he didn't care a toss about protocol. He resigned when it was convenient for him and no one else!
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#122. At 8:47pm on 12 May 2010, superscot85 wrote:
"I'm fascinated by the idea of equalising the electorate in individual constituencies: Shetland, Orkney, Caithness, Sutherland and the Western Isles would just about muster a large enough electorate to form one constituency. Wouldn't like to have to check the MP's travel claims."
Which was why it was said as - close as could be reasonablly managed -.
In any case there was really no real reasom for a parliament to be held in the bottom corner rather than in more certral areas. Then there came Devolution, but the Establishment made an even bigger hash of that. Devolution, as even the most stupid person can see, only brings democracy if applied to all countries equally. It isn't. Obviously instead of using devolution to balance the UK they used it to tighten the Westminster stranglehold and now succeed in killing it off. The ghost of democracy is about to haunt them.
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Labour press release alert, but good for a laugh:
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Labour-plans-to-exploit-39deal.6288143.jp
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102. Denno
"...now we have a new government, why don't we give them a chance to prove themselves as inept as the last one, instead of just assuming they will be."
We don't have to assume. They've already told us what they intend. And the people of Scotland liked it so much the vast majority of them voted for other parties. Unfortunately, all too many of them voted for the British Labour Party - for reasons you would need a degree in psychology to even begin to fathom. In accordance with long-standing tradition, that British Labour Party almost immediately betrayed those who had voted for them.
But the fact remains, whatever policies the Tory government tries to implement in Scotland, they have no mandate to do so. There is nothing that they can do that is acceptable. So, what exactly would we have to wait and see about?
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163 Auld Bob
Since it seems to be Scottish poetry day here at Blether with Brian, here's one I was taught at school. When I read it again earlier, I could not stop thinking of our illustrious First Minister
A puddock sat by the lochan's brim,
An' he thocht there was never a puddock like him.
He sat on his hurdies, he waggled his legs,
An' cockit his heid as he glowered throu' the seggs.
The bigsy wee cratur' was feelin' that prood,
He gapit his mou' an' he croakit oot lood:
"Gin ye'd a' like tae see a richt puddock," quo' he,
"Ye'll never, I'll sweer, get a better nor me.
I'm nae gaun tae blaw, but th' truth I maun tell-
I believe I'm the verra MacPuddock himsel'."
by John M Caie
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LOL, Jackie Bird edited out of the Newsnight Scotland footage of the interview with Alex Salmond.
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Repost from #160 without excerpts from the article:
Interesting if somewhat inaccurate and worrying article in the Gaurdian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/12/alex-salmond-presses-cameron-power-scotland
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When we got devolution we were asked in a referendum if we wanted it and with or without tax varying powers. Are we going to be asked if we want the Calman proposal or are they going to be imposed?
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128. GrannieAnne
"They also would have screamed a lot louder with a lot more vicious invective. Anyone who saw what was said at even the possibility, knows that. "
I'm sure some of them did. But I'm equally sure the experience has caused many realise what it is that we have been complaining about for all these years. If I am right, then some good may come out of the whole thing.
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137. Auld Bob
"...more often described as "THE LONDON OLYMPICS"."
Let's not go overboard. The Olympics are always known by the name of the host city.
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#137. Auld Bob
"Unless there is a surprising change of mind by the new UK Government, what will become clear is that all UK parties want to transfer resources to London. Our friends in England outside their capital are rather devoid of choice to remedy that. Scotland can".
I've tried to explain this one several times but it was always among other funding things. So here are a few more pointers to it -
In London there are multi-fundings hidden away and not really mentioned. The likes of, say Glasgow, are just called, "Local Authority", and funded as such, London, though, is funded as many Local Authotities. All within, "The Greater London Authority". Included among these are such as, "Transport for London". These are all treated, and have the powers of a local Authority. Here is an extract from "Greater London Authoriet ACT".
.........................
"An Act to establish and make provision about the Greater London Authority, the Mayor of London and the London Assembly; to make provision in relation to London borough councils and the Common Council of the City of London with respect to matters consequential on the establishment of the Greater London Authority; to make provision with respect to the functions of other local authorities and statutory bodies exercising functions in Greater London; to make provision about transport and road traffic in and around Greater London; to make provision about policing in Greater London and to make an adjustment of the metropolitan police district; and for connected purposes".
........................
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#172 Jim Stevens
I like it, but surely it's more applicable to comrade Brown or Murphy?
Any news on how Murphy is going to get his Labour press releases out now without tax payers money behind him, will the media still give him the same platform to spout his drivel?
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Electric -
'But the fact remains, whatever policies the Tory government tries to implement in Scotland, they have no mandate to do so. There is nothing that they can do that is acceptable. So, what exactly would we have to wait and see about?'
Nothing they could do? So regardless of what the Tories say/do, it's not good enough?
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#152. At 10:19pm on 12 May 2010, Denno wrote:
"I merely wished to point out that this was a UK wide election, not four separate elections throughout the UK, and as such it is a UK".
All of which is knocked on the head because the conditions within the UK are no longer the same as they once were. They now have three unequally devolved countries and one with no devolution so, in no way, is it possible to have a fair UK wide election. What we now have is England, (funded as the UK & no separate parliament), and four other devolved countries. Thus it is an English Election & hell mend the others.
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Auld Bob
I'm getting right into this. Here's an e3xtract another of my favourites which has gained new resonance. It can now serve as a fitting epithet for the risible 2010 SNP election campaign and failed insurgency.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Shelley
it's getting late,
and so to bed
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152. Denno
"I'm well aware we don't elect a Prime Minister (in theory)."
There is no practical way to directly elect a Prime Minister. There is no mechanism. Prime Ministers are not directly elected.
But you are, of course, free to indulge in your own mind any pretence that pleases you.
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#177. At 11:35pm on 12 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
"Let's not go overboard. The Olympics are always known by the name of the host city".
Yes indeed, many though also use stadia in thier country's area. London's country is England but even then they play it very close to their own chest. You do know London's in a different country - don't you?
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152. Denno
"I merely wished to point out that this was a UK wide election, not four separate elections throughout the UK, and as such it is a UK (not a Scottish) government that is being elected."
Reality intrudes. That there were quite separate elections in Scotland and England at least is inescapably clear from the contrasting results of those elections and the fact that the people of neither country were prepared to accept the verdict of the other being imposed on them.
Of course, in the end the verdict of the larger nation has been imposed on the smaller. As it always has been. But, as I have explained before, there was a brief period when it looked as if the roles might be reversed. And the bitterly indignant reaction of the Englanders demonstrates that it has been brought home just how screwed up the union is.
It may be that most of them will miss the point completely, or be totally complacent about the situation since, once again, they have not been adversely affected. But I'm pretty sure many of the more thoughtful Englanders will hear the arguments of Scottish and Welsh nationalist in an entirely different way as a result of this experience.
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157. Rev_S_Campbell
"COWARDS OF SCOTLAND
destroyers of the progressive alliance
Douglas Alexander MP (Paisley And Renfrewshire South)
Brian Donohoe MP (Central Ayrshire)
Jim Murphy MP (East Renfrewshire)
Margaret Curran MP (Glasgow East)
Tom Harris MP (Glasgow South)
John Reid
Johann Lamont MSP
Iain Grey MSP
Jack McConnell MSP
Lord Foulkes Of Cumnock MSP (and House Of Lords)
and at least 30 more UK-wide."
It occurs to me that there is no need to list them. As not one figure from the British Labour Party so much as urged consideration of Alex Salmond's offer, the entire party is guilty of betraying the voters.
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Whigs = The British reforming and constitutional party that after 1688 sought the supremacy of Parliament and was eventually succeeded in the 19th c. by the Liberal Party:
.........................
Chorus.-Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Awa' Whigs, awa'!
Ye're but a pack o' traitor louns,
Ye'll do nae gude at a'.
Our thrissles flourish'd fresh and fair,
And bonie bloom'd our roses;
But Whigs cam' like a frost in June,
An' wither'd a' our posies.
Awa' Whigs, &c.
Our ancient crown's fa'en in the dust-
Deil blin' them wi' the stoure o't!
An' write their names in his black beuk,
Wha gae the Whigs the power o't.
Awa' Whigs, &c.
Our sad decay in church and state
Surpasses my descriving:
The Whigs cam' o'er us for a curse,
An' we hae done wi' thriving.
Awa' Whigs, &c.
Grim vengeance lang has taen a nap,
But we may see him wauken:
Gude help the day when royal heads
Are hunted like a maukin!
Awa' Whigs, &c.
By Robert Burns
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159. InMyKip
"Is it true now Gordon Brown is no longer PM or Labour leader that Ian Gray has to think for himself?
"
Brown is still leader of the British Labour Party. And Gray is not equipped for thinking.
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Before I get going, let me point out that I voted SNP, before the usual accusations of being a Gordon-Brown-poster-on-the-bedroom-wall-lover start.
Labour was never going to agree to a coalition or "progressive alliance" with the SNP for two reasons - firstly it would mess things up in Holyrood and secondly Salmond plays hardball with no sign of compromise.
One poster mentioned "who?" with regards to our new Scottish Secretary. While I share that sentiment, the same could be applied to many of the SNP candidates, who bar the odd leaflet were mysteriously absent from the canvassing.
A few people seem to be in denial that the SNP campaign was poorly presented. A little bit too much of Alex Salmond in view as well, about time the SNP gave more visibility to the other members.
People need to accept that not all voters who went for Labour did so because (a) family tradition, (b) keep the tories out, (c) the media told them to.
If people here want to keep the same excuses well that's fine. I'd prefer to see the SNP actually fighting for every vote, rather than sticking a few posters up and shoving a couple of leaflets through a door. They also need to learn to use plain English - "champions", "balanced parliament", "progressive alliance". Patronising terms. The "progressive alliance" has now been hijacked by Labour of all people! Thinking that the majority at Holyrood is in the bag next year is a dangerous assumption. Lessons need to be learned from this campaign and applied now. Labour didn't even bother themselves in many constituencies because the SNP themselves didn't bother.
One other point I find incredulous. "Labour told us to vote for them to keep the Tories out". Yeah? And since when did people do what politicians told them to do?
Blaming the electorate for the failings of a political party to secure sufficient votes is not the best way to start campaigning for 2011.
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180. Denno
"Nothing they could do? So regardless of what the Tories say/do, it's not good enough?"
Not what I said. Read more slowly. Whatever they do they have no mandate in Scotland. That is just as true whether what they do is good or bad. But I don't foresee this being a dilemma we will have to ponder very much, if at all.
There is a fundamental democratic principle involved. I hold that such things are not for sale. Others may differ.
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182. Jim Stevens
"...for the risible 2010 SNP election campaign and failed insurgency. "
Whatever criticisms may be justified the fact remains that the SNP election campaign was rather successful. But we can hardy expect rational analysis from someone so demented they imagine there is some kind of armed rebellion going on that, strangely, only he has noticed.
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#183 Jim Stevens
Got anything for the "risible" 2010 Labour campaign of vote Labour or else get Tory?
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#182 Jim Stevens
Perhaps tomorrow you could explain to those of us not Labour party members why the Labour party betrayed the Scottish electorate.
Perhaps you could explain why those in your party elected on that platform called for a Tory government rather than take part in an alliance to keep the Tories out, purely out of party self-interest rather than in the interest of the Scottish electorate.
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189. Electric Hermit
"Brown is still leader of the British Labour Party."
He resigned yesterday. Harriet Harman is acting leader of the british Labour Party.
However, Gray will still need to try to think for himself. Without the authority of Government behind him, Murphy is just another UK Labour MP.
Whether Labour like it or not, Gray is the most senior Labour politician in Scotland! - no position within the party, but the SLAB MSP leader.
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#190 enneffess
I agree with part of what you say. Lessons should be learned from this campaign. Greater exposure to other memebers of the SNP should be given, however the very lack of parity with regards media exposure also played a large part, in fact the majority of the campaign revolved around the vacuous 'prime ministerial' debates. It also has to be said that my folks had none of the candidates out canvassing at their door, not just the SNP.
I did not like the SNP's PPB's, in fact one of them was outright twee and a little cringeworthy. You cannot beat feet on the street campaigning, however mainstream media coverage reaches far more people a lot quicker and the message sticks regardless of what it is.
The Labour party did nothing positive in their campaign. The Scottish electorate, knowing that a Tory government was a likely outcome were sold on the fear mongering of vote Labour to keep out the Tories, as a vote for anyone else will give you just that. In my constituency the incumbent Labour MP increased his vote by nearly 8%, the Lib Dems decreased by 7.7%, whereas the SNP candidates vote increased by only 0.2%. The politics of fear worked Neil, and the electorate where betrayed by the Labour party who dismissed any alternative to a Tory government out of hand.
"Labour was never going to agree to a coalition or "progressive alliance" with the SNP for two reasons - firstly it would mess things up in Holyrood and secondly Salmond plays hardball with no sign of compromise."
Rejected purely out of party interest with no consideration for the Scottish electorate that trusted them.
"People need to accept that not all voters who went for Labour did so because (a) family tradition, (b) keep the tories out, (c) the media told them to."
I accept not all, but a significant portion did. Just read the Scotsman article I linked to in #167 for one example which is repeated around the country.
"I'd prefer to see the SNP actually fighting for every vote, rather than sticking a few posters up and shoving a couple of leaflets through a door."
Did any other party including Labour do more than this? Granted we have the harder task in changing minds, however if no other party took active steps to garner votes it puts pay to your explanation of why so many voted Labour.
"They also need to learn to use plain English - "champions", "balanced parliament", "progressive alliance". Patronising terms."
Patronising terms? Please do explain why they are such.
"Thinking that the majority at Holyrood is in the bag next year is a dangerous assumption."
I agree that it would be very dangerous to assume anything about the elections in 2011, and the SNP must work hard between then and now to secure peoples votes. Out of curiosity who is assuming an SNP landslide?
"One other point I find incredulous. "Labour told us to vote for them to keep the Tories out". Yeah? And since when did people do what politicians told them to do?"
Please tell me your other explanation for the massive swing to Labour in constituencies such as mine after that fear mongering campaign was used.
"Blaming the electorate for the failings of a political party to secure sufficient votes is not the best way to start campaigning for 2011."
Noone is blaming the electorate for anything. If anything I'm blaming the Labour party for firstly conning and secondly betraying the electorate based on their words and actions which are concerned solely with the prosperity of the Labour party itself.
The people expressed their wishes and were still ignored, they rightly deserve some answers from those responsible.
Finally, you must be aware Neil of the issues that plague the SNP at Westminster elections. In the likelyhood of a majority government people see a vote for the SNP as a wasted vote, the party at Westminster irrelevant as they will not be able to influence policy.
The electorate were not convinced that:
a. there would be a hung parliament
b. that the SNP could influence policy if there was despite the examples of Holyrood
FPTP indentures people into voting how they think will most likely win the seat and have the most influence in a government at Westminster, nothing more. PR on the other hand would allow voters to freely express their political preference.
In short, there are many factors which influence how people vote, in the election just gone the prospect of a Tory government swayed many Scottish voters in no small part due to Labours slogan: vote Labour or get Tory.
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190. enneffess
"A few people seem to be in denial that the SNP campaign was poorly presented. A little bit too much of Alex Salmond in view as well, about time the SNP gave more visibility to the other members."
Would this be the same campaign where he was CRITICISED for having Mr. Sturgeon and Mr. Robertson appear at some of the 'Scottish debates' by any chance? Or are we talking about different campaigns.
As for whether the SNP campaign was run the best way possible, as far as I've noticed YOU are the only one arguing that one way or the other.
As far as I am concerned this is not the place for that and I have no intention of discussing it. If you want to discuss it go right ahead, but please do so accurately instead of saying silly things such as that Mr. Salmond was the only one who campaigned.
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190. enneffess
""Labour told us to vote for them to keep the Tories out". Yeah? And since when did people do what politicians told them to do?
Blaming the electorate for the failings of a political party to secure sufficient votes is not the best way to start campaigning for 2011."
*sigh* Do you really totally miss the point. No one is "blaming the electorate" for the fact that the Labour party lied.
The Labour party lied. It is that simple.
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190. enneffess
"Thinking that the majority at Holyrood is in the bag next year is a dangerous assumption. "
I have yet to see anyone assume that. The SNP has a good chance at keeping their plurality, but very few have even looked at a majority as a likelihood. In a system such as ours an outright majority is difficult to achieve. At the least, you can expect it (I think we all expect it) to be a hard fought campaign.
For a number of reasons that I have no intention of discussing here, the next campaign will be very different. I still wonder why, if you are concerned about the campaign, you don't express that to people who make those decisions. The SNP is not difficult to contact and is very responsive in my experience.
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Great Blog Brian.
Although I believe the new government (Con Dem Nation) is more Blackadder than Iolanthe.
Re ConLib coalition - as Blackadder would have said “We’re about as similar as two completely dissimilar things in a pod” (Duel and Duality, 1987)
I also applaud you on the mention of Margaret Curran. Someone on the BBC had to mention her sooner or later.
Margaret Curran, what a beauty.
Kind of reminds me of the wicked Queen in Snow White.
Mirror, Mirror on the wall, who in the land is the most bitterest of all…
It’s not the first bitter rant she’s made, nor will it likely be her last. Joan McAlpine gave her a honourable mention back in 2008.
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article4405711.ece
McAlpine diagnosis of Curran is that she suffers from ‘working class hero complex’.
I just think she is a numpty
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#182 - "Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away. "
And yet, Jim, the nats remain with the same number of seats and an increased share of the vote. So your wee eptithet doesn't work and isn't even needed.
Like every other post so far, you're wrong again sir. Wee tip, if I may. Actually learn something about Scottish politics before posting here. Those that don't just come across as idiotic wee boys who think they're clever with their "nat baiting" but believe me, they're not and everybody's just laughing at the joke they are.
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#199 - 190. enneffess
"Thinking that the majority at Holyrood is in the bag next
year is a dangerous assumption. "
"I have yet to see anyone assume that. "
I take you haven't seen any the interviews with the Grayman, then. If anyone is assuming they've already won next year's Holyrood election, it's Scottish Labour.
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For the Times they are a-changin'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8677428.stm
I expect we will see more of this now that we are the Con-Dem nation.
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#203 - "I expect we will see more of this now that we are the Con-Dem nation."
Very likely, although the silver lining may be a less pro-labour press. On that subject, Labour's attempt to officially establish another propaganda wing at STV appears to have been quashed since neither side of the Con-Dem coalition are in favour of it.
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A professor of economics interviewed by John Snow yesterday evening, he Con Dem-ned the cuts of six billion this year. Unemployment will rise, leading to further unemployment, he insisted. Growing the economy was key, contrary to the Bank Of England statement.
There are some who agree with this policy including Salmond, he has gone on record as saying that you cannot cut your way out of recession.
Interesting times ahead for both the new sheriff and his deputy.
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Aka full-squad & lone striker, I'll tread carefully here a lot of bloggs appear to have been moderated. All those fellow countrymen/women that voted for the full 11 squad members not forgetting the tokenist 1 other now sitting on the bench. Please carefully review your / the LIB manifesto! I suspect quite a few thing will go astray, so next time (Scotland) please use your vote that does not put you at a tactical disadvantage!
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205 , apparently another "Labour expert" trundled out by the BBBC and Channel 4.
" Experts" on the economy who missed the tsunami we now face just ain't experts in my opinion.
I am more than willing to allow the Con Dems time to show how well they can operate on behalf of all people in the UK.
I am amazed that there are knives out already from the labour party saying how they will fight for the working man , the disabled etc etc.
They have'nt done it for the last 13 years , what has galvanised them into action now?
I am hopeful that the Sunday Times will remove certain Scots writers from their entire operation!
I will raise a glass to the absence of these biased , bitter folk!
The BBBC had better be aware that the bias is showing down South.
Gido has an interesting discussion on Newsnight.
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Whether the large Labour return was due, or not, to the 'vote for us or get a Tory goverment', campaign, some things are hard to fathom. A new Labour MP was elected in East Kilbride, with a substantial majority, not withstanding that there have been mutterings about shady deals regarding planning permissions and the retiring MP Adam Ingram's five consultancy contracts, all of which has been in the local papers for some time. One wonders just what motivates the electorate in such circumstances.
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Deja vu, Internecine, Hegemony and other words I had to look up.
As a boy my father would sometimes take me round the doors at polling times canvassing support for the Labour Party, this when Tony and Gordon had not yet formed their love/hate pact. Now, as then, what never ceased to amaze me was that he spent more time arguing on labour supporters doorsteps than the Tories or SNP. Huh? The saddest realisation was when I noticed some of these people clearly had red posters in their windows before our approach.
It frightens me that I see the same thing now on the political blogs postings. Now, as then, it only comforts the unionists to see this. There is a view that debate hones the arguments but shouldn't there be enough by now?. The rational arguments are won we must now fight for hearts as well as minds, this must be done face to face. We need to get AFK.
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Electric Hermit -
'There is a fundamental democratic principle involved. I hold that such things are not for sale. Others may differ.'
Ok, one more time. Uk election, to democratically elect a parliament for the UK (of which Scotland is a part). UK votes. No one party gets a majority. Conservatives/Lib Dem coalition gives a UK (of which Scotland is a part) mandate for Conservatives/Lib Dems. Scotland is a part of the UK.
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Perhaps Mundell should now be called 'the sub', he can be brought out if any of the Condem First XI go of with 'flu or more likely fail to turn up due to crowd trouble.
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Good to see that the BBC in scotland are now concentrating on the election that counts: the labour leadership election.
This morning I was treated to the same quotes in support of david milliband that I was hearing on the BBC yesterday.
I would have thought that the forming of the Con-Dem cabinet would have been the major story, but apart from the fairly banal coverage there is very little. Why are the BBC in Scotland not analysing what this will mean for Scotland? If they are, it is certainly not being aired on the radio. This is the Scottish elections all over again: refusal to admit that their party has been defeated. sticking their fingers in their ears, and pretending that nothing happenned.
John
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#198 GrannieAnne
"the Labour party lied"... what utter rubbish. The Labour partly thought as most others did INCLUDING the SNP that the LibDems wouldn't jump into bed with the Tories as they were too far apart on so many policy areas.
However, it's abundantly now clear that Clegg NEVER wanted to work with Labour - he's cut from the same cloth as Cameron. Hopefully the LibDems will get what they deserve at the election next year a huge reduction in seats at Hollyrood.
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Holyrood... oops
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#190. At 00:39am on 13 May 2010, enneffess wrote:
"A few people seem to be in denial that the SNP campaign was poorly presented. A little bit too much of Alex Salmond in view as well, about time the SNP gave more visibility to the other members".
Let us get one thing right - before we go any further. Alex Salmond cannot choose who the Media choose to feature in programmes, newscasts or, (this time), Party Political Broadcasts to choose a UNITED KINGDOM Prime minister. To the best of my knowledge every SMP office holder worked their socks off. They have no control over the publicity given to their efforts.
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#213 deducted4points
"However, it's abundantly now clear that Clegg NEVER wanted to work with Labour - he's cut from the same cloth as Cameron."
Arguably so, but many in his party did, which is why the L-Ds did much more than go through the motions of discussing possibilities with London Labour, with very positive noises about the progressive alliance being made by Alan Johnson and even Lord Mandy.
That they barely began was due to the best efforts of such North British Labour luminaries as the ex-viceroy, dour Iain Gray, ex-FM Jack McConnell, Wendy's brother, John Reid, Ms Curran, Tom Harris, David Cairns and others, all of whom believed that it would not be in the best interest of the Labour Party to be seen to tolerate implicit support from the SNP. That fact will not be forgotten.
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#213 deducted4points
"However, it's abundantly now clear that Clegg NEVER wanted to work with Labour"
Now that is seriously revisionist, all the comments both from Labour and LibDems was that it was Labour who had the problems with coalition, even when Brown was about to stand down Clegg was phoning him asking him not to go. Yes the numbers were not quiet right but reports from the negotiations were that Labour appeared to be not very serious about the matter.
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Interesting times ahead in FMQs; Messrs Goldie and Scott will no longer be feeling lonely, and for Mr Salmond business as usual, but what of poor Mr Gray? Is he to join with Mr Salmond in deploring Westminster’s yoke and asserting that the new management have no mandate to rule Scotland, or is he to urge slavish subservience to a Tory prime minister and attack every whiff of “picking a fight” with Westminster?
As for the arithmetically challenged Ms Curran, can she perhaps explain what difference it would have made if the SNP had not been so sneaky as to put up candidates of their own instead of urging the lieges to vote Labour?
If the SNP had done the decent thing and stood aside in favour of the people’s party in all six of the seats they held, would Mr Brown still be occupying No.10?
Ah dearie me, its as convincing as portraying the late unlamented gang of Stalinists who used to rule over us as progressive and libertarian.
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#213 D4P - the labour party lied- whilst scaring the electorate half to death about a tory government they forgot to mention that if the English electorate rejected Labour in any way then the way Scotland voted didn't really matter 50mp's vs 500mp's maths obviously not there strong point.
"clegg NEVER wanted to work with labour" OOPS you should maybe look at the list earlier in this thread (#157) My MP is on that list right at the top as it happens and it doesn't surprise me one little bit!!
Sid
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197. GrannieAnne
Neil was just expressing his opinion with a few valid points. What a pathetically rabid reply. An embarrassment to what is supposed to pass as a contribution to a political debate blog.
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198. GrannieAnne
I have seen many blog and newspaper column posters say they blame the dumb (Glasgow usually) electorate for voting Labour, many, many times. But obviously you prefer to rant at Neil than take points seriously. Again, pathetic.
If he said the sky was blue, would you bark off that it was only him that sees that and clearly it is green, no one has ever claimed otherwise. With a growl.
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#144. At 9:51pm on 12 May 2010, cwh wrote:
I have a wee notion that when that good Lady, Ms Curren, makes her maiden speech in the HoC the staff in the subsidised Bars, cafés and restaurants will find themselves very, very overworked. Reminds me of how, many long years ago, Scottish Labour sent a Trade Union sponsored MP to Westminster. (I'm working on memory here), his maiden, (and only), Westminster speech went something like this, "When are you yins doon here goan tae dae sumthin fir the workers in Fife Pits"? He then retired to the back benches and trooped through the lobbies like a good little Labour man. I suppose ear plug makers will see share prices rise.
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215. Auld Bob
So that's Neil 'tellt'. He has a point. I suspect it was a calculated campaign response by the SNP to an 'irrelevant' (not really, I liked using the word ;-), or rather secondary, Westminster campaign. The big one is of course coming up.
But you're right, Auld Bob, how dare Neil suggest it was anything other than a fabulous campaign? You and Grannie Anne sound awfully frustrated. Perhaps you should meet...?
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rise above politics by 'descending' to their level
descending in this contexts is a little pejorative so lets instead say meeting them eye to eye. Who? Well primarily traditional Labour supporters, but in effect those who can be swayed. There are two main threads of argument for/against independence.
First; we are better off in the Union/independent. In this context better off is generally regarded in an economic sense. This can only be proved on both sides by statistics which are generally either unavailable, unreliable, unfounded OR outright lies. In any case people will generally self select the data they want to fit their established viewpoint. Arguing on this basis tends to entrench views as people dig in to defend their beliefs; see next
Second; union/independence is a moral issue. I believe/have faith that the union/independence is the right thing to do. Without shifting this position all the logic, reason and facts are just going to be bashing away at the rocky shores of intransigence, true the sea will eventually turn them to sand but I for one do not want to wait x million years.
What to do?
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Personally I do not understand all the surprise about and fear of the Con-Dem alliance is coming from. They are both de-centralising parties. Politics is not a one-dimensional left-right split, there are also centralising-personal freedom splits. For the last 13 years we have had one of the most centralising regimes in office. People now want their power back. They are not right wing, but they knew that the tories were the only way to beat labour, so we got the balanced parliment. As long as this parliment sticks to a de-centralising agenda, it will last. That could be good for Scotland as this parliment's instincts will be to give us the power that we want to run our own affairs (it will however still be within the union, and will be done with the idea of strengthening the union). If this is done in time to allow us to get out of the recession in our own way (growth rather than cuts) then it is entirely possible that the people of Scotland will be thanking this government for a generation rather than fearing it as they did with thatcher.
I hope that the Holyrood government works constructively along this agenda, because in doing so they will make the labour party's politics obsolete, and the labour party will appear as dinosaurs in a digital age.
I should say that this is not the government that I wanted, and I am worried about the talk about reducing the Scottish influence in westminster (ideally it should be 0, but while they have control over us, then we need representation there). So maybe it is just my natural optimistic streak that is trying to find the good side of the election result.
I am a naturally de-centralising person (one of the reasons I support independance), so I find a lot of what the coalition has said so far encouraging. I also think that with the right prods and encouragement, it could be made to work for Scotland.
John
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Why are the Tories so unpopular in Scotland. Even in areas where there should be a natural Tory majority they fail to make any headway. Might I suggest that they break away from their London masters and become a wholly owned Scottish party who will campaign for Scottish independence. Then they might be seen as being Scottish and I am convinced their vote would rise.
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We were told Gordon Brown stood down as leader of the Labour Party to facilitate on-going negotiations with the Lib Dems.
It may be the case that the Lib Dems had no intentions whatsoever in doing a deal with Labour but the opportunity came their way to remove a force within politics that would not otherwise go away.
If this is proved to be the case the Lib Dems have just commited political suicide.
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153. At 10:20pm on 12 May 2010, Allan J wrote:
"Had to laugh at Ian (who) gray".
You may know about the use of raptors around the Holyrood building to deter gulls and pigeons. Seems the original problem was also thought to have been Hoolits, (Thats Owls for our English Speakers). Turned out there was really no great Hoolit problem. Every time the Presiding Officer said, "I now call upon Iain Gray ... ... ...", there was a great chorus of "Hoo!Hoo!Hoo!".
(chuckle).
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SNP: "SNP Westminster Leader Angus Robertson MP has said that voters in Scotland have been let down by Scots let down by Labour and LibDems who have allowed the Tories into power, despite only winning around 15% of the vote in Scotland."
"15%"?
The Tories polled 16.7%, 3% less than the SNP.
Classic nationalism. When you've got nothing.....tell lies.
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SNP: "some 85 per cent of Scots voted against a Conservative Government last Thursday."
More lies from the SNP.
83.3% voted against the Conservatives.
80.1% of Scots voted against the SNP.
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Whilst I appreciate the fact that the SNP did not have money to burn, their Party Political Broadcast with some idiot marching up a mountain and shouting "Scotland" was totally cringeworthy. Alex Salmond's assertion and election message that only the SNP could protect Scotland from the cuts everyone with a modicum of brains know are coming in my estimation, was a mistake. So yes, the SNP campaign in my opinion was badly run and off-message and I say that as an SNP supporter.
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74. albamac
OK. I'll take time out to answer this, you bothered to answer mine.
My audience there was committed SNP supporters. So I don't need to cajole them on that point obviously. My very first post, on the subject of the negative impact of ranty posts on the undecided electorate, should have worried them, regardless. Because it is the main point of the argument, persuasion to our view is the crux of it all (without others we're done). A rational person, a genuinely independence-motivated person, would have at least considered that. I addressed rational adults. Should I really have had to worry about affecting their sensibilities? I would not have been offended so.
But, even though I am a known long time SNP supporter, I was instantly subjected to this rant, rant.
, as I am a known long time SNP supporter, not an opponent. So, while you have a point over discrepancies in methods of persuasion, arguably there should have been no persuasion necessary, correct?
Taking the point that there was the possibility of negative impact form these type of posts should have been enough motivation to consider the point, as the persuasion to our cause, surely, in the
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232. eye_write
Apologies, it seems I've posted half a post. LOL. I'll wait for it, to complete it.
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''A BBC survey found that of 29 independent economists that assist in government forecasts 24 expected the sales tax to rise during the current Parliament. Most thought it would rise from its current 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent before the end of 2011.''
''Both the Tories and Liberal Democrats insisted during the election campaign that they had no plans to raise VAT - but both parties also refused to rule it out.''
Is this a case of two wrongs make a far right ?
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Forgive me , but I fail to see how Grannie Annies response at 197 was in any way "rabid".
Is it me?
Am I desensitised to "rabid rants"?
And how come we have to accept that you have added much to the debate ,but others merely indulge in " rants"?
It's taking the place of shouts of " racist" as a means of stifling debate.
There used to be an eloquent poster - if fairly convinced of her own "rightness" - with the same moniker.
I would hate to think she had degenerated into a " thought policewoman"
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#208. At 08:27am on 13 May 2010, hamish42 wrote:
"Whether the large Labour return was due, or not, to the 'vote for us or get a Tory goverment', campaign, some things are hard to fathom".
In case you had not noticed, there is a very large element among Scottish Labour's faithful voters who seem to vote more along the lines of a Football Fan mentallity. In football you stay faithful to, "Your", team through thick or thin. The football anthem, "You'll Never Walk Alone", signifies this attitude. The thing is political parties are not football teams and should be voted for on sound, logical policies. You see other similarities in these supporters, (voters). They tend to dwindle away when the team are losing games and winning teams are better supported even if they win by defensive, dull, spoiling tactics and brute force. Like football, therefore, these vote by,"My Team", supporters will still have a hard core of the faithful ready to vote no matter how bad, "Thier Team",performs.
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210. Denno
"Ok, one more time. Uk election, to democratically elect a parliament for the UK (of which Scotland is a part). UK votes. No one party gets a majority. Conservatives/Lib Dem coalition gives a UK (of which Scotland is a part) mandate for Conservatives/Lib Dems. Scotland is a part of the UK."
I am well aware that unionists claim a mandate without the actual votes. Where we differ is that I find this unacceptable.
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190. enneffess
"Labour was never going to agree to a coalition or "progressive alliance" with the SNP for two reasons - firstly it would mess things up in Holyrood and secondly Salmond plays hardball with no sign of compromise.
"
Which blithely disregards the fact that the offer of a progressive alliance was, itself, a huge compromise.
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210. Denno, the nationalists on here have one tactic and one tactic only.
In the absence of any concrete argument for independence (for which these Bedroom Bravehearts live their entire lives for), they instead seek to provoke anger and resentment with the UK and England.
Their hope is that people will pass by this blog, see endless posts highlighting a myriad of (non-existent) threats and conspiracies against Scotland, alongside much glorification of Salmond and the SNP, and will suddenly become fervent nationalists without even thinking of questioning their often ridiculous claims.
However, as can be seen by repeated polls and elections, their 24/7/365 efforts across this and many other blogs have always been utterly futile and pointless.
The problem is that, unfortunately for the SNP and the nationalists, the vast majority of Scotland just aren't as stupid and gullible as they need us to be.
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190. enneffess
"A few people seem to be in denial that the SNP campaign was poorly presented. A little bit too much of Alex Salmond in view as well, about time the SNP gave more visibility to the other members."
Unionists keep repeating this "one-man-band" mantra. Except, of course, when it is more expedient to make a fuss about Salmond's non-appearance. The inherent contradiction seems not to trouble them at all.
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Without wasting time pasting comments from those who decided to have a go at me for criticising the SNP, let me say this:
The SNP themselves expected 10 seats.
They were genuinely shocked by the result.
Using the argument that other parties were not canvassing is absolutely no excuse for the SNP failing to do so in certain constituencies.
Westminster is NOT irrelevant to the SNP, since their failure to gain seats will be used by the opponents, and via the media.
Not canvassing shows to the electorate can give the impression that some SNP candidates didn't really care about their voters.
As eye_right points out, there is a lot of frustration out there. About time people accepted some hard facts and then moved on.
If you want to continue to rant and blame everyone else but yourselves, fine. But look at what has happened. Not a single gain. Not one. Nor could they hold onto the by-election gains. Try asking yourselves what the SNP did wrong.
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230. Reluctant-Expat
I agree with you that this blog has become nonsensical, but don't make it worse!
The SNP were not the Westminster threat, the Conservatives were. It is not certain that in a Holyrood election many of them would have still voted Labour in order to achieve the same. One thing is certain, Scotland and Britain are not just the same.
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The long term picture for both the Lib Dems and Tories in Scotland looks bleak. This coalition now closely associates them with all policy decisions and in essence, they are one and the same party now. There are huge public sector cuts coming in Scotland and by association, the Lib Dems are culpable. The electorate in Scotland will never forgive them for getting into bed with the Tories who really are a lost cause in Scotland. Whether local elections, Scottish election, by elections or next general election, I fear the Lib Dems will gain very few seats let alone retain the ones they currently have. The Scottish electorate have long memories. Margaret Thatcher brought Scotland to the brink of civil war, decimated the manufacturing base and caused real hardship. The Lib Dems will be associated with that party and rightly or wrongly, there will be those who believe they supported those policies.
I have aswked a question of my local MP down here whom is a Tory but cannot get a straight answer. In the upcoming Thirsk by election (and it will follow for others too) will both the Lib Dems and Tories be standing on the same policy now? How can they do otherwise. Whatever policies they canvass for it needs now to have the support of the other party otherwise it will have no legitimacy in this coalition. They cannot espouse different policies to the electorate now as to do so would be dishonest. She couldn't answer and I guess even political commentators can't either.
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74. albamac
OK. I'll take time out to answer this, you bothered to answer mine.
My audience there was committed SNP supporters. So I don't need to cajole them on that point obviously. My very first post, on the subject of the negative impact of ranty posts on the undecided electorate, should have worried them, regardless. Because it is the main point of the argument, persuasion to our view is the crux of it all (without others we're done). A rational person, a genuinely independence-motivated person, would have at least considered that. I addressed rational adults. Should I really have had to worry about affecting their sensibilities? I would not have been offended so.
But, even though I am a known long time SNP supporter, I was instantly subjected to this rant, rant.
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#226 DarkLochnagar
"Might I suggest that they break away from their London masters and become a wholly owned Scottish party who will campaign for Scottish independence."
Campaigning for Scottish independence would be a step too far for them, but ultimately they're pragmatists and would accept independence if it came and get on with it.
In the days that he posted here regularly, I suggested to deanthetory that they would probably do better to be a distinctly separate party who would be in alliance with their London chums but not beholden to them, in the way that the UUP used to work.
Since then, I note - rather worryingly - that I've been joined in that view by Lord Tebbit and - more promisingly - that the experiment of re-branding the UUP as Cons has been less than a resounding success, resulting in their representation at Westmidden being reduced to precisely zero. I can't see it happening while the red & yellow Tweedle coalition lasts, but suspect it will happen if they're stuck on one or reduced to zero MPs at the 2015 UK general election - If Scotland participates in it, that is.
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190. enneffess
"A few people seem to be in denial that the SNP campaign was poorly presented."
Another of these things that unionists repeat ad nauseam as if it was something proven beyond reasonable doubt. But when they are invited to show some examples to support the contention they grow strangely silent. Or start chanting some other piece of propaganda they imagine will undermine the SNP.
In fact, numerous SNP supporting posters in this place, not least myself, have been critical of various aspects of the SNP campaign. But it has been informed and constructive criticism which took account of the circumstances surrounding the campaign. We have not considered it helpful to imply vaguely that the entire campaign was seriously flawed. Nor have we found it necessary to dwell on such mistakes as were made by posting at length on the subject in every single thread. It is safe to assume that lessons have been learned.
In short, we know the last campaign was not perfect. Time to leave it alone and start thinking about the next campaign. Unless, of course, you have some reason for this constant negativity.
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195. oldnat
"He resigned yesterday. Harriet Harman is acting leader of the british Labour Party."
Quite correct. I actually knew this. So I can plead nothing other than momentary silliness.
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#220. At 09:57am on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"Neil was just expressing his opinion with a few valid points. What a pathetically rabid reply. An embarrassment to what is supposed to pass as a contribution to a political debate blog".
Neil, like you, had not quite read the situation correctly. Like you he places blame where no blame rests. I replied to him as I reply to you. Salmond cannot choose to be featured on any media outlet, be it dead tree press, internet press or broadcast media. That choice rests with the owners of the media. Thus any critical views on the SNP can only reasonably be made about the actual input any SNP official spokesperson makes on that media. You may choose to adopt a, "softly, softly, catchee monkey", approach if you so wish, that is your personal choice. You may choose to suffer the slings and arrows if you so choose, that too is your personal choice. Now get this - you are only you - GrannieAnne is GrannieAnne and I'm me. We do not answer to you or to anyone else.
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190. enneffess
"They also need to learn to use plain English - "champions", "balanced parliament", "progressive alliance". Patronising terms."
It is this sort of comment that makes me think there may be some ulterior motive behind your incessant negativity. There is nothing even vaguely "patronising" about these terms. The "champions" theme was excellent and should have been pushed harder. Indeed, it almost certainly would have been if the party had not been forced to spend so much time and effort trying to counter the effects of the biased Party Election Broadcasts put out by the unionist alliance.
The reasons for using the term "balanced parliament" are so obvious that I am quite surprised they elude you so completely. It was a quite clever way of giving a positive spin to the concept of a "hung parliament" which was being portrayed in an entirely negative way by most of the establishment parties.
AS for "progressive alliance", once again you appear to have completely missed the strategy here. This was by far the smartest bit of politicking in the whole election and its aftermath. The term had actually been used by the red Tweedles during the campaign, albeit in a different context. Salmond took the term and used it as a device to lure the British Labour Party into publicly admitting that they would rather have a Tory government than work with progressive parties.
Perhaps your problem is that you consider the average voter in Scotland to be incapable of understanding such terms. In which case, it is you who is being "patronising". Insultingly so.
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Just though I'd remind everyone that the Scottish Parliament, LIVE, is on Freeview Channel 81, (The Parliament Channel), and FMQs are on at 12:00 Today.
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74. albamac
Lastly...
"Are we to sanitize every word for fear of offending genteel, southern neighbours?"
It has nothing to do with that - they are not who we need to convince to support independence (for Scotland ;-), they cannot vote in the referendum.
"Do you honestly think that our opinions, beliefs, ambitions or desires will gain any ground against a tidal wave of north-bound insults, abuse, xenophobia and jingoism?"
It has nothing to do with that. Again you are concentrating on fighting the wrong group.
"If you think that this is the work of a few loud-mouthed nutters then, I'm afraid, your mistaken."
Mistaken, nope, 'loud-mouthed nutters', yes. A 'few', well....
"Can you, honestly, see any evidence that our desire for parity would carry an ounce of weight in the deliberations of English politicians whose primary concern is the preservation of their power in England?
It doesn't matter! You're just obsessed with 'them, them, them'. I'm going to be blunt. It's the whinge of a loser. You focus on them having power over us. It's so misdirected! To crow that we need to stand up for ourselves by complaining what our bosses did, that just reaffirms our subservience! We should speak as though we are the boss not the disgruntled employee - no one achieves success like that.
No matter how heartfelt, crying, or shouting, 'It's so not fair' will get no sympathy. Life isn't fair, is it. If you can get up and constructively campaign, and thus do something about it, then you gain respect and get support. Act like the winner.
It doesn't matter what 'they' think. They are surely going to slag us off...it's not a shock! Slagging them back is just so stupid. How can we achieve success when we are as stupid as them. Criticism should come from a position of assurance not grievance.
I thought this lesson was learned years ago. Why let the expected miscalling of our neighbours (ignore them, they have thier own, arguably worse, problems) drag us back, to where they are, nationalism of the 1970s? If that is all Auld Bob, GrannieAnne and Electric Hermit have to offer, then it is not time to listen to our grumpy old elders, but listen to the generation after, to me.
The choice is yours, girlfirends :-)
But the future of Scotland does depend on it. Surely I am not the only one with sufficient intelect, and maturity and sense, to get it? (I know I'm not.)
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#221. At 10:01am on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"I have seen many blog and newspaper column posters say they blame the dumb (Glasgow usually) electorate for voting Labour, many, many times. But obviously you prefer to rant at Neil than take points seriously. Again, pathetic."
So just what has your personal reading got to do with any poster on the blog?
"If he said the sky was blue, would you bark off that it was only him that sees that and clearly it is green, no one has ever claimed otherwise. With a growl".
Both he and you are wrong in putting blame upon the SNP for the coverage given to the SNP campaign. They do not control the media. If GrannieAnne and I choose to debate this with Neil and point that out I'm almost certain that Neil will accept the points or reject them and allow others to have different views - Why don't you take a leaf from his book?
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201. ForteanJo
"And yet, Jim, the nats remain with the same number of seats and an increased share of the vote."
In circumstances, it should be added, where they might reasonably have been expected to lose vote share. Taking due account of the context, the SNP's result was actually very good.
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For those having trouble with typos.
GREY - is a colour.
GRAY - is a colourless Labour leader at Holyrood.
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242. eye-write: "Scotland and Britain are not just the same."
More accurately, Scotland and S England are not the same.
While the latter favours centre-right politics, Scotland, Wales and the rest of England favour centre-left.
Now that the Tories are back in government, many are fully expecting them to take the opportunity to erase the reputation of Thatcherism (which was 20-30 years ago) and regain the levels of support that existed before.
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243. glennptodd
'The Scottish electorate have long memories'
So it appears.
The unwashed in the central belt are still under the impression that the labour party is the party of Maxton, McLean etc. ignorantly unaware the party they blindly vote has deliberately kept them downtrodden and impoverished for decades.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#223. At 10:08am on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
1 - "So that's Neil 'tellt'. He has a point."
Indeed he has. That's what debate is all about. Now you're about to be, "Telt", (again),tae.
2 - "I suspect it was a calculated campaign response by the SNP to an 'irrelevant' (not really, I liked using the word ;-), or rather secondary, Westminster campaign. The big one is of course coming up".
Which, of course was not the point.
3 - "But you're right, Auld Bob, how dare Neil suggest it was anything other than a fabulous campaign? You and Grannie Anne sound awfully frustrated. Perhaps you should meet?
Neither GrannieAnne or I have made any such claims. I would not pressume, (unlike you), to speak for a lady who quite obviosly is more than just capable of speaking for herself. If I am, in any way, frustrated, it is due to people, life you, who continually mis-interpret things that are not true but persist in attempting to ram those facts down other people's thapples.
I certainly have never made any claims, one way or the other, about the SNPs campaign other than that I know all party officials worked their socks off. As to the effectiveness I have blamed no one. I have though often made the point that the Party have no controll over what media coverage they get on either private or public funded media outlets. I find it strange you cannot understand this simple fact.
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One of the many problems Labour have is that they still cling onto the straw of hope that the coalition will collapse sooner rather than later and another election will be called, but this could be wishful thinking for them. If the coalition does well, as it seems determined to do, the Tories will be back with a real majority and the catastrophe that was Brown's government will be imprinted on English memories like the Thatcher years is in Scotland. If Cameron/Clegg resolve the West Lothian question and the perceived Barnett formula problems, it will give the English a reason to be cheerful again adding power to the Tories elbow.
When Labour in Scotland realise they missed a trick by ditching any attempts to team up with the liberals and the others, it could finish up with them wishing for independence, especially if their MSPs get disillusioned with their old guard, Gray, Kerr et al, and decide to move things on.
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250. Auld Bob
Freeview! Ah'll give you freeview!! We used to dream of getting Freeview, Five etc. It is, however, as normal, available on the interwebthingy at Democracy Live.
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#229. At 10:19am on 13 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
SNP: "SNP Westminster Leader Angus Robertson MP has said that voters in Scotland have been let down by Scots let down by Labour and LibDems who have allowed the Tories into power, despite only winning around 15% of the vote in Scotland." :"15%"?:The Tories polled 16.7%, 3% less than the SNP.:Classic nationalism. When you've got nothing.....tell lies.
-------------------------
How many times must you be told?
There is no point in thumping percentage of total votes to support your daft claims as the system of selecting WESTMINSTER MPs is FIRST PAST THE POST. Furthermore, it is your LABOUR CHUMS who insist it should be that system - Go tell them.
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@229 "Classic nationalism. When you've got nothing.....tell lies."
Calm down, dear. 16.7% IS "about 15%".
"About" means "roughly", and the practical, meaningful difference between 15% and 16.7% in the context of a political mandate is zero. You're quite right that it's not that much less than the SNP got, but the SNP weren't looking to form the government and have the Prime Minister - they only put up a candidate in about 9% of seats - so the issue of a mandate for them is completely irrelevant, like your comparison.
(By the by, I agree that the idea of the ConLib coalition not having a mandate to govern Scotland is absurd on at least two levels, and I hope the SNP abandon it ASAP.)
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248. Auld Bob
Yawn. Your powers of perception as to what I or others know or think are obviously gravely poor. You just rant on, teaching nothing.
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#249 E-H
The problem with "balanced parliment" is that it reeks of spin. Everyone knows what a hung parliment is, it was a good enough description for holyrood, why not westminster. The debate about the term took attention away from the real issues. Real issues that for various were never discussed during the campaign *cough* MSM *cough*.
It played into the MSM's desire to trivialise the SNP, and should have been forseen. I didn't however forsee it, but it is a lesson that can be learned in hindsight: hammeer home the big points, don't try to be overly smart, say it like it is and people may start to trust you.
John
ps. other than that, I liked the champions campaign. I didn't watch any of the PPBs (but then the clips I saw didn't entice me to). I thought the lack of posters on streetlamps seriously deflated the election buzz, resulting in a generally flat campaign for all parties. I thought the debates were far too influential.
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249. Electric Hermit
If enough of the electorate thought the words were pants, they were pants.
I think if the SNP came up with the slogan "Vote yellow fairy godmothers" you'd think it was good and everyone else who disagreed would be possessed by nonsense and 'negative'. Good grief. Your posts are awful, beyond a joke.
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251,
"Surely I am not the only one with sufficient intelect, and maturity and sense, to get it? "
You have a very high opinion of yourself. High Horse and get off springs to mind.
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213. deducted4points
"However, it's abundantly now clear that Clegg NEVER wanted to work with Labour - he's cut from the same cloth as Cameron. Hopefully the LibDems will get what they deserve at the election next year a huge reduction in seats at Hollyrood."
The British Labour Party spin machine hard at work. But making little progress, I suspect, other than with those religious types who will remain mindlessly devoted to "The Party" regardless.
Less blinkered individuals will know that it was the British Labour Party which made it impossible for the LibDems to "work with Labour" by sabotaging the proposed progressive alliance. At the time, BLP spokespersons were not in the slightest bit shy about telling everyone they would rather have a Tory government. Now they are trying to airbrush very recent history.
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252. Auld Bob
Do you know how to press 'Return' on your keyboard at all? It's half way up, over to the right. (Just using your generous technique of imparting info.)
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258. Auld Bob
Bark, bark. Let your frustration go. It doesn't actually help, you know. Rather it puts ammunition in the hands of our opponents. It's never an excuse. Rise above it, as 'your mother used to say' ;-)
Be more intelligent. You're letting yourself down.
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255. Reluctant-Expat
Fair point.
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#230. At 10:25am on 13 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....FPTP....
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The only candidate we saw was the SNP lady in a car with a loud hailer. The Labour PATSy didn't show but then the seat has been Labour since 1945 so why should she bother?
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231. DarkLochnagar
"Alex Salmond's assertion and election message that only the SNP could protect Scotland from the cuts everyone with a modicum of brains know are coming in my estimation, was a mistake."
That may be what you heard, but it is not what he said. It is what the unionist alliance claimed he was saying. The SNP message was that the first and deepest cuts should hit things like WMD and subsidising US wars of aggression rather than essential services.
Here's a wee tip for the future. If you really want to know what the SNP's message is, don't ask the British Labour Party. They have been known to be less than completely honest about such things.
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#239. At 10:50am on 13 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
I'm not even going to grace your rant with any other retort that this:-
Plese repeate for us all a single post from you that suggested a reasoned political point of policy?
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235. Diabloandco
I will give up telling off these posters, who ought to know better. They'll come round. But I have raised the point, got it noticed. Had to be done, had to be effective in getting their attention, given the level of their oblivion to it!
"There used to be an eloquent poster"
I grew up. Always a good thing to do.
But I can still be persuasive. And if I was right then... (not that you said that, but...)
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241. enneffess
"Without wasting time pasting comments from those who decided to have a go at me for criticising the SNP..."
I don't see anybody having a go at you. What I see is people pointing out the glaring flaws in your criticisms. Deal with that rather than indulging some misplaced sense of persecution.
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@255 "More accurately, Scotland and S England are not the same. While the latter favours centre-right politics, Scotland, Wales and the rest of England favour centre-left."
Reluctant-Expat must be suffering from colour blindness if he insists this is the case. The electoral map of England is almost entirely blue, north AND south, save for a few small urban enclaves of red around Liverpool/Manchester and some parts of London, and the modest orange presence in the South-West.
The truth around Mr Expat's claims is revealed in the map found here:
http://wosblog.podgamer.com/2010/05/10/a-united-kingdom/
It is very far indeed from showing "the rest of England" as a stronghold of the centre-left.
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74. albamac: "a tidal wave of north-bound insults, abuse, xenophobia and jingoism..."
Oh, get over yourself.
I read endless anti-south rants every day on this ridiculous blog, including from you ("the corrupt English", "the English don't give a flying fart about us, only power" among your most recent) yet when some comes back, you whinge how unfair it all is.
Grow up and cease the name-calling.
And stop trying to claim it's a large number of English calling you nasty names. No-one buys that rubbish. How strong is the English nationalism movement again?
Thankfully, both sides are tiny, irrelevant minorities.
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266. loveme2times
Every one must prove such statements. I have. Doesn't mean I'm better than you.
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255. Reluctant-Expat
"Now that the Tories are back in government, many are fully expecting them to take the opportunity to erase the reputation of Thatcherism..."
By "many", of course, you mean yourself.
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266. loveme2times
Or, I don't have the Scottish Cringe.
I know what my strengths are. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not apologising for them. Wouldn't want anyone to do that. My vision's unclouded by instant disdain for anyone who is confident.
Chip?
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262. The SNP claiming 16.7% = "roughly 15%" is dishonest. To round the figure down so much is dishonest.
Why not say it was "roughly 17%" or "roughly 16%"?
Or just give the correct figure?
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264. john
"The problem with "balanced parliment" is that it reeks of spin. Everyone knows what a hung parliment is..."
Everyone knew what the Tory/BLP alliance said a hung parliament is. And their portrayal of it as a dreadful thing to be avoided at all costs had to be countered. Their negative spin had to be answered with some positive spin. Since the negative representation of a hung parliament was a device to put people off voting SNP it would have been rather daft for the SNP to help promulgate that representation.
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265. eye_write
"If enough of the electorate thought the words were pants, they were pants. "
You do not represent "enough of the electorate". Only that part of it with a tendency to foot-stamping tantrums.
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BBC: On Wednesday, Spain revealed measures to save billions of euros.
Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said they would save the country 15bn euros ($19bn; £12.5bn) over two years.
Spain's budget deficit currently stands at 11% of GDP, and the austerity measures are designed to reduce this to 6% by 2011.
Nations around the world are cutting spending yet the SNP think we can and should maintain current spending by cutting schemes which aren't currently receiving any funding (ID cards, Trident replacement).
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274. Are you referring to this post?:
210. Denno, the nationalists on here have one tactic and one tactic only.
In the absence of any concrete argument for independence (for which these Bedroom Bravehearts live their entire lives for), they instead seek to provoke anger and resentment with the UK and England.
Their hope is that people will pass by this blog, see endless posts highlighting a myriad of (non-existent) threats and conspiracies against Scotland, alongside much glorification of Salmond and the SNP, and will suddenly become fervent nationalists without even thinking of questioning their often ridiculous claims.
However, as can be seen by repeated polls and elections, their 24/7/365 efforts across this and many other blogs have always been utterly futile and pointless.
The problem is that, unfortunately for the SNP and the nationalists, the vast majority of Scotland just aren't as stupid and gullible as they need us to be.
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Missed first Ministers questions this morning. However, did catch the end of the BBC programme. From the comments of Brian Taylor and his guest Hamish MacDonell, it appears that a resurgent Iain Gray had a good day and the First Minister was caught out a bit.
Any views anyone?
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#251. At 11:30am on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
You are seriously deluded. You remind me off a wee white Cairn Terrier I came across in Burn Wynde in Jedburgh. My tiny Papilloin needed a pee and the streets were jamed with people waiting for the riders of the Marches. The wee Cairn ran towards us but then flipped over on its back in abject submission. This is totally opposite to how my wee dog goes to people. Difference was mine had never been beaten into submission as a puppy. Independence is an attitude of mind. My wee dog is trained as a Therapet and is so friendly most people cannot believe it. She loves everyone but is not sunmissive to anyone. Think about it.
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190. At 00:39am on 13 May 2010, enneffess wrote:
"the same could be applied to many of the SNP candidates, who bar the odd leaflet were mysteriously absent from the canvassing."
The only people round our immediate doors in 'Ayrshire Central' were the Tories, a group of polite and very well attired young men in smart blazers. They seemed to be targeting certain houses; perhaps pensioners, or perhaps by the type of house?
"champions", "balanced parliament", "progressive alliance". Patronising terms.
The term 'Champions' reminded me of the "Pure Dead Brilliant" slogan at Prestwick Airport.
I have also seen it used in a film, where the person using it was obviously sick fed up to the teeth promoting something using terminology that he quite clearly regarded as inane not to mention false. It was a real turn-off for me personally but perhaps the SNP's marketing gurus are straight out of Uni and saw the same movie, and thought it was cool or/and inspirational?
"Blaming the electorate for the failings of a political party to secure sufficient votes is not the best way to start campaigning for 2011."
I agree 100 percent, time to get back to promoting real policies such as 'the replacement of Council tax' - Gordon Brown gave just a hint of the possibility of this in one of his early speeches, perhaps an indication that Labour are now realising that the present system is a vote loser, particulalry among pensioners who do not get any benefits, but also among working class people who do not earn a fortune and are subsequently paying a far higher percentage of their income than the better off. The figures are on every Council's website for all to see, but the SNP must get them out there to everyone, on an constituency by constituency basis. When put on a graph they clearly show the inbalance between what the poorer and the better off pay.
The Daily Mail had an article last year that showed that I, in my humble abode, paid more in real terms than the Queen does for Buck House, (in percentage terms it would have been off the graph), but also more than her London neighbour did for a house more twice the value of mine.
I am sure there are other policies that the SNP can come up with regarding how to fight drug abuse, crime etc. but the solutions need to be radical and effective - perhaps they could try different methods in different parts of the country for a set period, (say three years?), to try to determine what works and what doesn't - 1) softly softly in Dumfries as punishment for voting Tory :-) - 2) hard as nails in Ayrshire; all my friends and neighbours will vote for that :-) - 3)talk tough and do nothing in Tayside, (same as all parties have been doing for the last 30 years, so shouldn't affect the voting at all.
Better than blanket policies that don't work anywhere and who knows, they might find some real answers to the problems.
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271. Then perhaps you should tell your precious SNP who seem obsessed in in understating the Tories share of the popular vote.
snp.org: "who have allowed the Tories into power, despite only winning around 15% of the vote in Scotland"
snp.org: "85 per cent of Scots voted against a Conservative Government last Thursday"
Radio 5: "The Tories only secured 15% of the vote in Scotland"
Tories 16.7%...Tories 16.7%...Tories 16.7%...Tories 16.7%...
SNP 19.9%...SNP 19.9%...SNP 19.9%...SNP 19.9%...SNP 19.9%...
Labour 42%...Labour 42%...Labour 42%...Labour 42%...Labour 42%...
Mmm?
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eye-write, regarding the hectoring and ranting of others, it may be time to examine the beam in your own eye, or drink less coffee.
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275. eye_write
"I will give up telling off these posters, who ought to know better. They'll come round. But I have raised the point, got it noticed."
If this is an undertaking to desist from your unwarranted, self-righteous attacks on nationalist posters then it can only be welcomed. You never had a point.
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#256. At 11:46am on 13 May 2010, Harry Stottle wrote:
"The unwashed in the central belt are still under the impression that the labour party is the party of Maxton, McLean etc. ignorantly unaware the party they blindly vote has deliberately kept them downtrodden and impoverished for decades".
With Glasgow East;Shettleston;Springburn;Maryhill;Bailleston all haveng benefitted so very much under all those years under Labour Governments. Not to mention how long they have been loyal to Labour candidates.
Aye! Richt!
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282. Reluctant-Expat
"The SNP claiming 16.7% = "roughly 15%" is dishonest. To round the figure down so much is dishonest."
No. Just disdainful. Since the Tories and their British Labour Party allies both insist that vote share is irrelevant, why should those who favour a democratic voting system focus on anything other than the number of seats? By their own rules the Tories are defined as a tiny minority in Scotland. Since they define themselves in such terms it would be churlish of others to disagree.
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284. Electric Hermit
LOL
Brilliant, couldn't have been said better by 'Dumb Jock'.
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277. A nationalist selectively quoting? Surely not.
First examine detailed 2010 voting levels within N/Midland areas, urban and rural.
Then examine past voting records in N/Midland areas, urban and rural.
Then examine the 'constituency map' where constituencies are of equal size, not based on land area instead of population.
Ask yourself how Labour secured such a high percentage of the English popular vote when your map apparently shows "England is almost entirely blue."
Then come back to me with something more than just that one very generalised map and argue that the N of England and the Midlands are not centre-left.
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284. Electric Hermit
PS I didn't mind the words, not the best, but not totally without substance.
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284. Electric Hermit
Irony? Ah, man, I shouldn't laugh.
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@282 "Why not say it was "roughly 17%" or "roughly 16%"? "
Because where percentages are concerned, people think in units of 5%. No grand conspiracy. It's much like the casual way you claim England is centre-left except for the south, a wildly inaccurate generalisation disproved conclusively by the map I linked to, showing (for example) a solid band of blue running from just south of Sunderland to just north of Manchester.
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This is obviously a battle of wills between the rational and lunatic wings of the SNP. No doubt, under the surface, it is being repeated among the Holyrood "names" anxious to disassociate themselves from the election fiasco. Can't wait for that breaking of ranks - will there be a "Wee Free SNP?" Is this what our pantomime Trojan Horse pairing is striving towards? I mean, they are hardly attempting to win hearts and minds for the coming election, are they?
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#260. At 11:57am on 13 May 2010, bmc875 wrote:
"Freeview! Ah'll give you freeview!! We used to dream of getting Freeview, Five etc. It is, however, as normal, available on the interwebthingy at Democracy Live".
It is, so they say, supposed to get much, much better, with better coverage and stronger signals when the switch over happens.
Aye! Richt!
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#283 E-H
The problem was that we were bogged down in semantics (brian must be chuckling here, because he was one of the ones doing the bogging down) rather than getting the message across.
Changing the word for something is not getting a new message across. What should have been said is something along the lines of:
"yes we want a hung parliment, because then we may be able to get some of our manifesto enacted in return for supporting the government. They don't want a hung parliment because then they would have to compromise and deal with other parties. They are acting like a child who wants it all their own way".
John
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I am an SNP Member.
The SNP did not win the General Election. The SNP did not increase the number of SNP MP seats at Westminster.
Please! To all those (regular) posters who cannot accept this, who write and/or quote poetry, who fantasize about 'The Auld days', who quote events from the 1600's, who declare dislike (at best) of 'The English' - Please get over it!
The first - and most basic rule of any conflict resolution is - ' Accept it'. [you do not have to like it!]
Now, once we can all agree to that, maybe, just maybe we can focus on the future of Scotlans's people and (if you are so inclined) the SNP.
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287. Jim Stevens
"Any views anyone? "
My view is that you are far too susceptible to British Labour Party spin. I didn't see FMQs either. Unlike you, I recognise that I am not qualified to comment.
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290. Reluctant-Expat
"Tories 16.7%...Tories 16.7%...Tories 16.7%...Tories 16.7%...
SNP 19.9%...SNP 19.9%...SNP 19.9%...SNP 19.9%...SNP 19.9%...
Labour 42%...Labour 42%...Labour 42%...Labour 42%...Labour 42%...
Mmm?"
NURSE!
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#262. At 11:59am on 13 May 2010, Rev_S_Campbell wrote:
(By the by, I agree that the idea of the ConLib coalition not having a mandate to govern Scotland is absurd on at least two levels, and I hope the SNP abandon it ASAP.)
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Oh! Please! How can they have a mandate? The facts are plain. The UK is no longer a Democracy. It never has been a country as it is a Political Union of Four countries. Once the situation was that the whole UK was composed of, roughly, equal constituent parts, (constituencies). It no longer is as each country is goverened, and funded, in a different manner. England uses the House of Commons for domestic matters and is funded as the UK. Every other country has a different level of devolved powers. The new constituent parts are now Devolved Countries. The New UK, (English), parliament has no mandate to govern Scotland. The Scots voted for a Labour Government.
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287. At 1:01pm on 13 May 2010, Jim Stevens wrote:
Missed first Ministers questions this morning. However, did catch the end of the BBC programme. From the comments of Brian Taylor and his guest Hamish MacDonell, it appears that a resurgent Iain Gray had a good day and the First Minister was caught out a bit.
Any views anyone?
Yes, you should watch the session yourself then form an opinion.
Do not rely on commentators favoured by BBC Scotland, they are usually less than objective and more often than not will praise Iain Gray regardless.
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Oops, looks like Ian Gray is in a difficult position today.
He can either agree with Alex Salmond and support the opposition of ConDem cuts from London, admitting that Labour previously holding of 180mil in fossil fuel levy was wrong or he can side with the ConDem's and say the cuts are fine and dandy and we do nothing to oppose them.
Oppose the SNP request to help Scotland, oppose the ConDems in London, hard to do both and still appear to be for the people of Scotland.
Labour - now truely the party of opposition, they only have to oppose themselves to complete the set.
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#287 Jim Stevens
"Missed first Ministers questions this morning. However, did catch the end of the BBC programme. From the comments of Brian Taylor and his guest Hamish MacDonell, it appears that a resurgent Iain Gray had a good day and the First Minister was caught out a bit."
You can watch it for yourself here. Post your own opinion then.
I can't say I recall Brian suggesting that dour Iain's performance was above his normal woeful standard, but I agree that Hamish MacDonell claimed he was less awful than usual, presumably because that's what Pacific Quay want.
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@290 "Then perhaps you should tell your precious SNP who seem obsessed in in understating the Tories share of the popular vote."
Not as obsessed as you seem to be with going on and on and on and on and on and ON about it. There is ABSOLUTELY NO MEANINGFUL DIFFERENCE - in context - between 16.7% and 15%. Wind yourself in and stop flapping this enormous decoy around.
The fundamental point being made by the SNP is that the Tories came first in England, but last in Scotland. Whether they got 15.2%, 16.7% or 18.8% would make not a jot of meaningful difference to that. The point is that they were the LEAST popular main party in Scotland. You sound like the manager of a football team that's just lost 8-0 bitterly complaining that the seventh goal was offside.
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#278. At 12:33pm on 13 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"I read endless anti-south rants every day on this ridiculous blog".
More lies - show me an anti-English post in this present blog?
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#287. At 1:01pm on 13 May 2010, Jim Stevens wrote:
"it appears that a resurgent Iain Gray had a good day and the First Minister was caught out a bit."
Resurgent implies returning to a position of power or vigour; that's got to be wrong for a start.
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289. Sheneval
"The term 'Champions' reminded me of the "Pure Dead Brilliant" slogan at Prestwick Airport. "
It "reminded" you by being entirely different?
There are one or two unionist posters being a bit silly about this in a rather pathetic effort to portray the SNP campaign as a total disaster. The simple fact is that it is all but impossible to come up with a slogan that will be perceived in the same way by everyone. Individuals' perceptions are coloured by experience and prejudice. Which is why professionals in the field take a detached view of some things. They don't make the silly mistake of imagining that their own subjective perceptions can be generalised to the wider public.
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#263. At 12:00pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"Yawn".
Aye! Yer tired! Awa an lie doon an gies aa peace.
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282, 290 – Reluctant Expat....
Yawn.
RE – You really should really thinking about changing tact.
Your continual sniping is becoming a tad tiring. You are aware that you are almost repeating yourself from blog to blog?
Same could be said of some others too but your posts are driving the repetitive replies.
Guy’s – RE is obviously on a mission, maybe it’s time to move on from debating percentages at Westminster and get back to discussing what awaits around the corner.
Like the 6 billion of cuts the UK will see this year and so forth. Or whether the coalition will survive more than a year?
I would be interesting in knowing how Labour aim to protect the people of Scotland from the Tories?
As a party of opposition in two parliaments it’s difficult to see what they can do?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
288. Auld Bob
Listeners to the 'yap, yap, yap' would just think your dog extremely annoying, say it stinks, and kick it out of the way.
Is this the Darwin Awards version of Brian's blog??
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Is my hearing waning or did I hear Hamish McDonnel say that Dour won the day at FMQ's?
If it's the latter then reports of the demise of comedy on the Beeb are unfounded.
BTW, up the Staggies on Saturday. (Sorry Brian)
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292. Electric Hermit
Time for a bib change. Your dribbling has fair soaked that one. I feel that with campaigning finesse like yours you could lose us Banff and Buchan next time!
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292. Electric Hermit
When are you going to grow up, 'nationalist' posters?
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#268. At 12:09pm on 13 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"Do you know how to press 'Return' on your keyboard at all? It's half way up, over to the right".
There you go - Wrong again. I have three computers. The one I'm using ATM, is a little netbook. Netbooks usually do not have standard qwerty keyboards. BTW: I've worked on computers since shortly after WWII. Not too much to learn about them for me nowadays.
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291. ambi
I drink tea! But you're right, I have wasted enough time. You cannot make people realise what's good for them, only show them. They must realise it for themselves. Some never will. But the 'auld guard' nationalists have got to get with it or go.
'Tis the way it is...
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287. "it appears that a resurgent Iain Gray had a good day and the First Minister was caught out a bit."
LOL!
I suspect you might have some people disagreeing with you.
Including many who haven't even seen FMQs yet.
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279,
Maybe people do "get" what you are saying, maybe they just don't agree with you.
Because they don't agree doesn't make them any less intelectual, mature and sensesible.
Just because you think your view is correct this does not mean it is so to others.
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299. Rev_S_Campbell
"
Because where percentages are concerned, people think in units of 5%."
Nonsense.
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277. Here's the map for you I mentioned in #296, highlighting how the Midlands and N England are centre-left like Scotland. I could also add London!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2432632/UK-General-Election-2010-political-map.html
The above also beautifully highlights how SNP support is confined to very low-density population areas. Tis very interesting.
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233. eye_write
"As a "rational adult" and as a matter of common courtesy, I was happy to wait for the completed version of #233. I don't know why I bothered since, by #242 you're persuaded that "this blog has become nonsensical". Did you arrive at this before or after your position was questioned?
I wonder, too, given that your message was intended for "committed SNP supporters", why you have chosen this blog to deliver it. Does public discussion of tactics and strategy seem rational to you?
I had no serious gripe with you until you made the mistake of responding with this, "A rational person, a genuinely independence-motivated person, would have at least considered that."
I read that as a clumsy, ill-mannered and amateurish attempt to discredit me.
I voiced my opinion. You didn't like it but, more than that, you refuse to allow it! So, I'm "subjected to this rant, rant".
"You're just obsessed with 'them, them, them'. I'm going to be blunt. It's the whinge of a loser"
"No matter how heartfelt, crying, or shouting, 'It's so not fair' will get no sympathy"
"Life isn't fair, is it. If you can get up and constructively campaign, and thus do something about it, then you gain respect and get support. Act like the winner"
I joined the SNP just over three years ago. I pay my dues. I donated a useful amount to help with recent legal costs. I cancelled my TV licence in protest. Every adult member of my extended family and many of my friends are, now, SNP voters. I played my part in that and I didn't have to raise my voice, let alone get into a lather about it. While people here and elsewhere were talking about the 'I Hate Alex Salmond' group on Facebook, I closed it down.
I do what I can, as and when I'm able! No great shakes, but some is better than none.
I'm a winner! I have a wonderful family and a decent life.
I'm a loser! I've suffered the loss of a beautiful teenage daughter.
I'm a winner! I've survived armed conflict as have two of my sons-in-law and my granddaughter's husband.
Like everyone else, I win some, I lose some but my life continues, wholly unaffected by background noise from cyber-gubs!
I've just had a letter from Alex Salmond, thanking me for my support. Nice enough, I suppose, but in the grand sheme of things it merited little attention.
"Surely I am not the only one with sufficient intelect(sic), and maturity and sense, to get it? (I know I'm not.)"
Oh dear! How gracious of you to allow that others may be your equals! Hasn't it occurred to you that some of us might not consider that a worthwhile aspiration!
I don't! So, you're latest 'presentation' was wasted on me!
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@296 "Then come back to me with something more than just that one very generalised map and argue that the N of England and the Midlands are not centre-left."
Sigh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010#England
Is North Yorkshire in the South of England now? Cheshire? Lincolnshire? Warwickshire?
Compared to the English Labour vote, the English Tory vote is more than FORTY PERCENT higher (fractionally under 10m compared to fractionally over 7m). It is very, very far from being concentrated in the South. Indeed, the numerical bulk of Labour's votes in England are found in London.
The Tories are a comfortable first in England - all of it - and a distant last in Scotland. The Tory vote share in Scotland was less than half what it was in England. Trying to pretend otherwise, and quibbling over 1.7% here or there, just makes you look like a fool.
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Why do these nationalists keep referring to themselves as 'progressive'? Reference to 'progressive politics' was just another bit of Mandelson spin, aimed at leading the public to infer that the Tories were, therefore, 'regressive'. Amusing that the SNP have latched on to the word. We have clearly found Mandelson's ideal intellectual target audience!
How many times have we heard 'progressive party', 'progressive alliance' etc. I am afraid you will have to do more than simply keep using the word to convince the majority that your agenda is 'progressive'. As far as I can see, your proposals would take Scotland back to the stone age. Mind you, I do believe the Scottish people have a right to a referendum on whether they should seek independance. I thought Alex (we call all politicians by their first name now, you know - just like the other celebrities)was sorting one out for this year?
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