Building bridges
It is, averred the prime minister, about building bridges, not burning boats.
David Cameron was chatting with Tavish Scott, an erstwhile Guizer Jarl at Up Helly Aa where boat-burning is compulsory.
But, alongside the joshing, a visit with a decidedly serious purpose. Mr Cameron was in Edinburgh to meet the first minister - and his Holyrood oppoents, an indication of his intent to re-engage, if possible, with the entire Scottish body politic.
Symbolism all round.
Mr Cameron said it was his first visit as prime minister to a parliament anywhere. He has yet to go to Westminster.
His talks with the opposition leaders were held in Queensberry House where the second Duke of that ilk crafted and propagated the Union Treaty in 1707.
And the PM had to enter Holyrood via a side door because of a noisy protest outside against public sector cuts.
Future progress?
But hard bargaining in outline form with the FM. Alex Salmond said after the talks that he had been surprised that the new PM was ready to engage, seriously, about financial issues such as new borrowing powers or Scotland's demand for a comparable share of the money currently being spent in the east end of London in association with the Olympics.
Will there be final deals today? No, of course not. Might there be progress in future? Perhaps.
Privately, those observing the talks with Opposition leaders say that the PM was open to the idea of progressing the Calman reforms to Holyrood with relative speed.
Indeed, it was Mr Cameron who raised the issue.
Understandably, he would not give an immediate assurance that Calman would feature in the first coalition Queen's speech.
Holyrood reform
But those seeking to advance the Calman agenda felt reassured by Mr Cameron's response.
Frankly, those supporting the Union felt he had got the concept: that further reform at Holyrood would be required, from their standpoint, to counter the SNP arguments which will now be advanced in the run-up to the elections next year.
From an SNP perspective, Mr Salmond appears to be sustaining his broad strategy which is to govern as consensually as possible within the present Union settlement - while simultaneously inviting the voters to infer that things could be better under independence.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~40~RS~)
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It is a tricky balancing act for both parties.
David Cameron certainly does not wish to go down in history as the last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the first Prime Minister of England.
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The concilliatory tone by the SNP is in stark contrast to the bawling of Iain Gray yesterday. His 'cuts, cuts, cuts' rant did him no favours.
Meanwhile, the 1200 jobs claim has morphed into 5000 jobs:
Newsnet Scotland
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I hope that being the number two comment will prevent the gratuitious referrals that have seen many number one comments disappear.
Here's hoping.
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So you are only economical with the truth when the report involves mr gray and the labour party fuddites ? You must start holding the labour party rabble in the Scottish parliament to some kind of account.Honest reporting would be a start. Or does that go against BBC policy ?
If I was the first minister I would watch Mr Cameron like a hawk. However Mr Cameron must be given credit for coming to Scotland.
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From the last thread:
405. At 2:06pm on 14 May 2010, brigadierjohn wrote:
#359 online ed: "Half a million hits, eh?
Page views and hits are two different things.
We have had almost three and a half million hits.
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Just in case comment number two is referred then here it is again:
Doubts over Labour cuts claim.
Newsnet Scotland
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It's a long game for Scottish independence that many of us are not 100% happy with but, I think, in the end may well be the one that works.
I give kudos to Mr. Salmond.
"Mr Salmond appears to be sustaining his broad strategy which is to govern as consensually as possible within the present Union settlement - while simultaneously inviting the voters to infer that things could be better under independence."
I believe this is exactly the SNP strategy which so many who are angry that the SNP aren't totally concentrating on independence arguments miss. Good governance is what will 1. help the people of Scotland (which in the end is what government independent or otherwise should do) and 2. demonstrate that Scotland is indeed capable of governing itself.
The capability of governing ourselves is something that (for reasons that are useless to go into) many, if not most, Scots have lost confidence in. I don't fault them for that. There ARE reasons for the loss of confidence. But the SNP ARE demonstrating that we can be successful as a government.
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"Turning his attention to the SNP government's planned independence referendum, the prime minister added: "We will have our arguments - I will never give ground on my commitment to the United Kingdom and keeping our United Kingdom together..."
I question what this means. Respect for Scotland? By refusing to ALLOW us to vote on our own constitutional status? By refusing to respect our vote, if we vote a way that he does not agree with?
Exactly WHAT was Mr. Cameron saying? I don't claim to know but I find this comment alarming.
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5. Online Ed
"Page views and hits are two different things.
We have had almost three and a half million hits."
And you are, of course, right to quote page views. Anyone with any knowledge of the internet knows that it is page views which are significant.
You have done very well and I'm impressed with your publication. It was much needed. I do believe it will continue to grow.
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Hopefully the good relations will remain. There will certainly be disputes, but the fact that Cameron has met with Salmond early on is a good sign (we hope).
As to the Labour party - why worry? They are not in the position to do much.
I would imagine Cameron is looking to try and get some votes from Labour. There must be more than a few seats they could target.
But it is way to early to try and make any predictions yet.
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And the PM had to enter Holyrood via a side door because of a noisy protest outside against public sector cuts. - Brian Taylor
I think you'll find it was a horde of extremely angry protestors decrying the visit of a Prime Minister that they never voted for. Typical BeeB mentality - to play down serious voter anger as a mere "noisy protest"
A far cry from the day Thatcher was welcomed to Edinburgh with the loud rumbling of enthusiastic applause. She would go on to become the most despised woman in the Land.
Maybe the reverse wil hold true for Cameron, but I sincerely doubt it.
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grannieanne
i would not worry about that, if the SNP are popular enough (or if they can find enough others - after all the scottish socialists and greens were in favour as well, before they almost got wipeout).
As for the visit itself, will give the prime minister credit for that, does show that he does have genuine respect for it and to keeping the union together.
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You Scots are way too 'canny' to go for independance.
You've got your cake :-
Free University Tuition Fees,
Free NHS Prescriptions
Free Hospital Parking
Free Elderly Social care
And you can eat it :-
Votes in the Westminster Parliament on English Matters, whilst
the English can't vote on Scottish matters.
The Barnett Formula to get the dumb English to pay a proportion of the
Scottish 'extra's'.
A massive proportion of the population either on benefits or employed
by the public sector.
I like the Scots, they are generally polite and friendly. I love
the Scottish countryside especially the Highlands. But under the
current set-up the Union is 'dead', and the only solution is
for us to be rid of you by voting for our own (English) independance.
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From last page
488. eljayjay
Fair enough. I suppose it it's not always necessary to make so sure the mouse is dead before it's eaten. Could make for bad table manners. It's true, I'm thorough...
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Quite striking behaviour from Cameron, and in stark contrast to the general tenor of relations between the current FM and last PM (as I'm sure Cameron intends). Was there ever any formal meeting between Salmond and Brown?
I'm beginning to think Cameron is a serious 'soft power' disciple (though the cynic in me thinks soft power is hard power before it dries out).
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#2
spot-on about Ian Gray's comments. He is as his name suggests dull and well grey really.
#13
Get your mummy to make you some more cakes, it might help you cope better with life.
By the way, calling English people 'dumb' is impolite, though an intellect like yours should shine through. Like your name though: did you make that up playing dungeons and dragons?
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Indeed give David Cameron credit, visiting the Scottish Parliament 1st, clever approach, gave out a reasonable and responsible message. The Unionists should be happy. Mr Salmond also came across well. Just may be, the New Dawn of politics is here after all. No rainbow, no crock of gold, possible harmony for the betterment of Scotland and the rest of the UK. The big question is, how long will it last.
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#13 Alfred,
Then get on with it man! Don't preach to us, you are largely preaching to the converted, lobby your MPs.
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#13 I do wish you lot would stop moaning aboot us perfidious Scots and actually DO something about English independence. What would it take.... every constituency in England hosting an SNP candidate saying "vote for us and we'll deliver it."?
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13. alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
"But under the
current set-up the Union is 'dead', and the only solution is
for us to be rid of you by voting for our own (English) independance."
Hurry up and do something about it.
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Very strange that "Scottish" Labour seem to going on all out attack on the Lib Dems.
Labour did have the chance of a deal with the Lib Dems and other parties, but seemingly did not seem very commited to going ahead with such an arrangement, so it's hypocritical for Iain Gray and his colleagues to complain about the opposite outcome which has now happened.
During the election, we were contstantly reminded by the unionist parties that this was a UK election not a Scottish one. Therefore it should come as absolutely no surprise that regardless of how Scotland voted, the largest party across the UK has become a coalition with one of the smaller parties and within the system of the Union they support so vigorously this is a perfectly legitimate and normal outcome. As long as we remain part of the UK, a Tory government ruling over Scotland at some point was an inevitable outcome at some point in time. Only the SNP have any credibility to question the new government's mandate in Scotland, but in the interests of showing how Scotland and England could be good neighbours as independent countries, I hope the relationship between Holyrood and Westminster improves and shows how the two nations could co-operate with each other.
If people are complaining reasons that Scotland now has a government it did not vote for, they shouldn't be condemning one of the parties taking part in the new government. They ought to be condemning the system that allows that situation to take place, and be speaking out against the Union. Only the SNP are doing this with 100% commitment, and Labour, by their previous support of the Union have helped create the very situation they are now so vocal in criticising.
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Going by your last blog Brian which bits of this one are true and which bits are fairy tale?
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13. alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
As you so ably demonstrate, education is always the key.
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19. At 7:25pm on 14 May 2010, perthski
That's a great idea ... you've probably got more chance of getting 20 seats in England, than you have of getting 20 seats in Scotland.
Get Mad 'Eck to campaign down south .... and I'll give him my vote !!!!
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17. Ron McArthur
"Indeed give David Cameron credit..."
For what? Doing the easiest and most meaningless thing his spin doctors could come up with?
Tories smile while they screw you because they know they are screwing you - not because they are nice people.
Never forget! The British Labour Party put this snake-oil pedlar in power.
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24. alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
"Get Mad 'Eck to campaign down south .... and I'll give him my vote !!!!"
Just so long as nobody else is giving away balloons.
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#17 Ron McArthur
"(...) possible harmony for the betterment of Scotland and the rest of the UK. The big question is, how long will it last."
Implementation of the ConDem austerity plan will doubtless bring the honeymoon period of the new UK government to an abrupt end, particularly if that plan is perceived as an act of submission to the blood-sucking financiers of anglo-American casino capitalism to the detriment of the welfare of the people of Scotland and of democratic sovereignty.
Who might present it in this light to good effect? Striking trade unions and the socialist independence parties come to mind. Stand up, Tommy Sheridan. Here's your chance.
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Labour are being rather bad losers. Mandelson was the first to start, and he had the nerve to steal the term "progressive alliance". Not my favourite term, but it was the SNP who came up with the phrase, not Labour.
Did anyone else notice how the Labour hierarchy, one after the other, started wittering on about that the UK voted for 52% socialist, 48% conservative? If Labour had been true to their socialist roots we would never have had the disaster that is PFI.
Much as I dislike the Lib Dems, they might just be the brake on some of the conservative policies. That will make it harder for Labour to return.
I also noted how Ian Gray said that Labour were the voice of Scotland. Erm, excuse me, but the SNP are currently the governing party, and therefore are the voice of Scotland.
-----------------
11. Gary Hay:
As has been pointed out numerous times, the public do not vote for the Prime Minister. The politicians choose the PM. Voters under the current system vote for the MP in their own constituency.
But I can't help wondering if the protest was staged.
-----------------------------
13. alfred_son_of_ethelwulf:
Try and be constructive. In case you hadn't noticed, we pay considerably more for fuel, despite having a refinery up here. Prescriptions are NOT free (yet), and not everyone agrees with this policy. Our public transport costs are not regulated.
Contrary to public perceptions we are not all scroungers. I work for a living and get sod all from the state bar child benefit. I probably pay more for energy than you (it is cold and wet) and through the associated VAT I probably contribute more to the UK economy as an individual than you do.
On voting, the SNP abstain from voting on non-Scottish matters. And while we are on that, the Poll Tax was unleashed on Scotland before the rest of the UK.
Not all Scots want independence, but their reasons are not the same shallow ones that you put across. The English democrats - who I am in favour of - have failed to make any significant impact on the political front.
Anyway, it was English voters who allowed Labour into power in the first place.
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#24 Thank you Alfred, does this mean our southern cousins just like to moan about us Scots being (the myth) subsidised rather than actually doing something about it?
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13. alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
"And you can eat it :-
Votes in the Westminster Parliament on English Matters, whilst
the English can't vote on Scottish matters.
The Barnett Formula to get the dumb English to pay a proportion of the
Scottish 'extra's'.
A massive proportion of the population either on benefits or employed
by the public sector."
The British political class is highly skilled in presenting data in a way that divides people against each other, rather than combining against the Brits.
Of what you list, some of your grievances are the result of a deliberate policy by the Brits to centralise power over the largest of the UK nations in their own hands. Others are simply misinformation spread by the Brits.
Scotland and England should actually be in alliance to recreate their independence. However, England does need an independence movement that embraces civic nationalism for that to work.
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#26 Lol
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25. At 8:15pm on 14 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
17. Ron McArthur
"Indeed give David Cameron credit..."
Aye it's great ta see you can put petty things aside. Roll on the new dawn.
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27. frankly francophone
Just came across Meltup!
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13. At 6:55pm on 14 May 2010, alfred_son_of_ethelwulf wrote:
" I like the Scots, they are generally polite and friendly. I love
the Scottish countryside especially the Highlands. But under the
current set-up the Union is 'dead', and the only solution is
for us to be rid of you by voting for our own (English) independence."
The way you talk is as if England would be declaring independence
from Scotland , I'm sorry but you would be declaring it from the
British government . Independence is an agenda that has been set rolling for some time now up in Scotland , The people from England have barely made a start . Also Stop complaining about all the benefits Scotland gets from having our own parliament , we had to fight ( champagne ) for Holyrood . The people of England should get up and demand one , not just expect one .
Get up and get one for England is what I say . Otherwise your moan's and grown's sound like they extend from jealousy .
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Rather than looking from money from London we need democratic control of our country. More powers please who cares about money, well unless we're talking fiscal autonomy.
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Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray said Mr Cameron must recognise Labour as the "voice of Scotland" if he was sincere about a new spirit of co-operation.
The arrogance of this man beggars belief.
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Ronald MacDonald says "Indeed give David Cameron credit, visiting the Scottish Parliament 1st, clever approach, gave out a reasonable and responsible message. The Unionists should be happy".
Indeed all unionists are Tory.
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30. oldnat
"Scotland and England should actually be in alliance to recreate their independence. However, England does need an independence movement that embraces civic nationalism for that to work."
If alfred_son_of_ethelwulf is anything to go by we may have to air-drop some spines before that happens.
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27. frankly francophone:
Tommy Sheridan?????
I hope you are being sarcastic, I really do.
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32. Ron McArthur
"Roll on the new dawn."
What "new dawn"? You may be an avid purchaser of whatever snake-oil has the shiniest marketing. But there is no reason why others should be impressed. We are not all credulous bumpkins. Some of us are old enough to have heard all this "renewal" claptrap any number of times. Tony Blair conned a big slice of middle England with it.
I won't get fooled again! You look like you're gaggin' for it.
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29. At 8:22pm on 14 May 2010, perthski
It's quite strange really. In a ideal world the Scots and the English would get a full referendum on independance.
Although you might not agree, in my view the Scots would vote AGAINST independance. That is for the reasons I quoted in my earlier post (No 13 I believe), and also because there are a majority who strongly believe in the Union and all it has achieved throughout history. Let's face it, there is no-one more British than a Rangers fan.
On the other hand, even though they will NEVER give us a referendum on independance (see promised vote on the Lisbon treaty etc), I believe a majority of the English would vote FOR full independance. Again, you might not like it but the view is we are not getting the same level of services as you (also the Welsh and Northern Irish as well), and we would be better off without you. 13 years of Nu Labour mis-management has
raised the level discontent with the Union to new levels. You would often see the Union flag hanging from houses, nowadays it is always the COSG.
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I Don't know about anyone else but does Cameron's " respect agenda "
Not speak volumes about the way Scotland has been treated .
Is that supposed to win us Scots over to him ?
" Oh look Scotland is getting treated with respect now "
Eh NO too late is what I say , The damage has been done
and we will fix it for ourselves thank you very much and we will also
take the moral high ground . Respect is due where respect earned and
from where in standing it's time for a new relationship one with
real respect , INDEPENDENCE . Someone should read him this ......
" You cannot build character and courage by taking away
man's initiative and independence."
Abraham Lincoln .
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If Labour are the voice of Scotland how come they sound like the Conservatives? What voice is that? Ignore Scotland , don't give them any extra powers at any cost, ensure they know they are only a little part of bwitain and nothing more.
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13. Alfred, you burned your cakes. You're not really in a good position to give baking advice.
17. Ron McArthur
Even Thatcher's rule started off with a honeymoon period. All that stuff about St Francis of Assisi and "where there is discord let us bring harmony".
That turned out really well didn't it?
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13. alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
"I like the Scots..."
This "Scot" doesn't care whether your condescending, patronising self likes me or not. I don't want you telling me how my country should be governed. If you don't understand that, then our missionaries aren't earning their stipend.
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36. Wee-Scamp
"The arrogance of this man beggars belief."
That's not arrogance. That's ignorance.
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Well interesting day, But Much as i expected. The present cordial atmosphere between Cameron, and Salmond could be an excellent ploy to blow the common enemy of the tories, SNP and the prosperity of Scotland, i.e. the Labour party, out of the water.
If Eck and Cameron are able to show that The English Govt. and The Scottish one can work reasonably amicably, showing mutual respect It will show the labour party as the frauds at they are, only being interested in the 40 odd Westminster seats from the west central belt which helps them gain power in London, whilst ignoring and in-fact rubbishing and slagging off the rest of the country as choochters (however u spell it) or rednecks. I think, although Thatcher overstepped the mark back in the eighties, it has been the Labour party and the far left of the unions that has held back Scotland economicaly over the last century.
Can't wait to hear Gray's whinges and "blame the SNP" rhetoric as he gets more and more marginalized.
We should all be pushing Cameron towards a Federal Scotland in the meantime with a view to long term independence. What we need to do to gain independence is ultimately discredit and nullify the labour threat, and this could be the way.
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39. enneffess
"Tommy Sheridan?????
I hope you are being sarcastic, I really do."
You're right. The last thing the British Labour Party wants is a real socialist rocking their cozy little boat.
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At least Cameron made an early effort to build bridges, was up to speed (admitted by FM Salmond) on the issues and agrees with Calman reforms.
Clearly many Scots think the Tories are toxic after the '80s/'90s just as there have been times when the English are reticent about Labour who are still popular 'north of the border'. DC will have to demonstrate that times have changed but he'll face an uphill struggles given that the economic situation inherited (just like in '79) from Labour is dire. Spending cuts will come and no part of the UK can be ring-fenced from them to the detriment of the rest. The UK can't continue living on the never never any more than businesses or families can.
In time I hope the Scots do get their independence vote. It would be the UK's loss if they went their own way, but we'd get over it :)
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41. alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
"...the Union and all it has achieved throughout history."
Culminating in being the lapdog to US warmongers. Forgive me if I'm not as droolingly impressed as your sorry self.
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42. 1scot4scotland
You've got it! What is this supposed "respect" supposed to contrast with if not the contempt in which the Westminster system has always held Scotland.
And we are supposed to believe that this has all changed overnight? Just because some shiny-faced cipher says so?
Nah!
I've seen Weasel Blair.
Won't get fooled again!
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21. akava77
Nothing new there, then.
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44. InfrequentAllele2
"All that stuff about St Francis of Assisi and "where there is discord let us bring harmony". "
Aaargh! Bring us our sick-back because we are NOT the Batty Baroness's grandchildren!
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No 45. Electric Hermit
Your a very strange person, you seem to like to take little bits from a persons post totally out of context ... and make some sort of 'witty' comment on it.
I think I'm getting it now
Electric Hermit wrote at No 51
"changed overnight ...."
Something you've probably not done for 4 weeks .... I wondered what that smell was !!!
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"to govern as consensually as possible"
I must just be imagining Salmond's endless winging then!!
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55. D W Scott
"Salmond's endless winging"
I know many of us here admire Alex Salmond - but none of us have called him an angel! :-)
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It's time to get real in my opinion we owe it to ourselves ,
our neighbours , villages , towns , city's , families , friends , colleges
and country but most importantly to our children . how ? I hear you ask ,
Firstly we SNAP OUT of our inferior state of mind , smash the negativity
and the lack of self-confidence in our ability to rise together to become
a better , more optimistic and progressive nation the one we all know we
would be and yes the one Scotland should be . Independence represents
one major benefit , one Scotland has been starved of and that is
OPPORTUNITY and prosperity ! WHO IN SCOTLAND DOESN'T WANT THAT ?
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I see that Mr Gray's new Master introduced himself to the 1st Minister today :)
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Iain Gray marginalised? Quite possibly...
http://tinyurl.com/theyounglochinvar
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Scotland has a 'window of opportunity' to secure as many concessions from the Westminster government as possible while the Clegg/Cameron honeymoon lasts. At the moment Cameron is trying hard to be the popular nice guy - it won't last - but we should take advantage of it before their relationship sours. As for Grey ... words fail me.
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"48. At 9:00pm on 14 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
39. enneffess
"Tommy Sheridan?????
I hope you are being sarcastic, I really do."
You're right. The last thing the British Labour Party wants is a real socialist rocking their cozy little boat."
Tommy is a true socialist, but his economic policies would destroy any private enterprise in Scotland. He might want a socialist state somewhere left of Communism. I don't and neither do most Scots judging by the performance of SSP, Respect and whoever else is involved.
----------------------------
57. 1scot4scotland:
"Starved of opportunity and prosperity".
Erm, please explain. Scotland is rather well off (could be even better).
If you want to see true starvation read up on Tanzania.
And what's this with the "inferior state of mind". I might be cynical but I enjoy life. I don't know anyone who thinks they are inferior.
Emotion doesn't win many votes. The problem you have is that people need to be shown how things will get better. Just saying it will doesn't really work as we have seen with the Labour Party in government. Every party says the same thing "we will make things better". Then it goes pear shaped. No wonder people don't listen to such messages.
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28 enneffess
While I agree the SNP ,the governing party in official terms are the voice of Scotland ,it worries me that they need to find a way to get the message out. Without starting a whole new debate regarding the media, when you talk to colleagues they see the headline "SNP cuts" and take it at face value. I was greeted by " they said they would protect frontline services !" While I deplore the antics and level of childish behaviour (including the barracking when A.S.speaks at FMQ )that Iain Gray has fostered, for many that 60 second soundbite is sometimes the only 'news' that people see when they come in from work. Ideally I would like to see Nicola Sturgeon reflect back -who agreed to the contracts for the chief execs,PFI,NHS contracts that had to come home to roost although I do appreciate she has to walk a fine line as she has to work with the chosen ones and up until now the SNP appear to have tried to govern without descending into personal attacks.It does concern me with the Scottish elections however it is going to get very personal as Iain Gray does'nt seem able either ask a relevant question which would inform the public or put forward a proposal which concerns his constituents.The 'cuts cuts cuts ' was lost due to his grandstanding so I can only assume the people affected by the cuts in Glasgow are none the wiser .The other point which was also lost was if the union handed the staffing plan straight to Mr Gray should someone not be asking -WHAT EXACTLY HAVE THEY BEEN DOING FOR THEIR MEMBERS ?
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On BBC Scotland news did I get a glance of Gray along with the rest of the Scottish leaders meeting Cameron I wonder did he shout cuts,cuts,cuts at Cameron or is he to chicken faced for that.
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@Alfred
-- Free NHS Prescriptions
No we don't
Free University Tuition Fees,
Free Hospital Parking
Free Elderly Social care
As to that, that is a matter of balancing budgets. To afford that savings are made and priorities shuffled so those things can be financed.
As to voting on English matters, that is a quirk of the UK system, the one that gave us English MPs voting on purely Scottish matters for centuries. I assume you are against that.
Quite a few nationalists realise there is a democratic deficit in Westminster due to it being both the UK and the English Parliament, one way to resolve that would be to have a separate English Parliament, another would be to cut those whinging Jocks free.
Please!
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60. mariaskid
"Scotland has a 'window of opportunity' to secure as many concessions from the Westminster government as possible while the Clegg/Cameron honeymoon lasts."
Interesting point. Though it might also be that the LDs (primarily) want to demonstrate that Westminster Labour's negativity to the Scottish Parliament/Government showed how much Labour took Scotland for granted and gave us nothing, when they could have given at least respect and fairness. Such an approach also has advantages for the SNP and Tories in the 2011 elections, of course.
By inclination, I'm a Liberal or Social Democrat on the left/right spectrum, and don't want a Tory/Orange Book LD Government. However, the behaviour of the Labour Party in Scotland since 2007 and in Westminster since last week, suggests that they are so concerned with themselves rather than the people and unfit as a vehicle for progressing the interests the Scots - or even the British.
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To Barbazenzero, from previous thread.
Thank you for your thoughts ("Westmidden" - priceless and very apt! I haven't heard the term midden since I last visited my Granny (Bless her beautiful soul) in Possil Park (yes, I know it is now referred to only as 'Possil').
Yes, I do like UKIP's policy on Europe, but that is because I believe in a trading relationship with the EEC and not a political relationship. It is not what we voted for all those years ago. I must admit, I was not aware that UKIP had more than one policy, let alone one on reversing devolution! I came to that conclusion by means of simple arithmetic.
I am sure you will not be surprised to learn that I do not really want to see the destruction of the Union, but I must admit to being absorbed by the apparent desperate desire for it from some people. I do not understand why this should be so, or why they feel Scotland would be better through independance or even why they think they have a right to expect it? It is not as if the Scottish people have been disenfranchised, or had their land stolen or their children put into slavery. Also, Scotland has been a heavily subsidised community for a very long time (I think you must disregard the "it's oor oil" argument - a) because it is not and b) it is a finite resource - what would Scotland do when it runs out?). How would you finance your public services and welfare bills from such a small taxpayer base? Particularly as a large proportion of the civil service jobs would certainly be relocated south of the border. There would also be the cost of maintaining border controls (to stop the unemployed Scots from sneaking South to claim benefits - sounds like another four feet high wall would be required - but we would get the Poles to build that). I think Trident would have to come south (but I think that should happen anyway) so Scotland's standing within the UN would be on a par with Nigeria. Come to think of it, there would be no need to dream up military shipbuilding requirements to buy votes on the Clyde - paid for mainly by the England taxpayer.
Actually, I am warming to the idea. I almost wish we could try it just for the laugh.
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'Spending all his time picking fights with wasteminster'
A favourite whinge of Gray.
Now another bullet is out of his arsenal it doesn't leave much for him moan about at FMQ's.
Maybe he'll be reduced to juggling or doing card tricks to fill his time on Thursdays.
As for Alfie. Believe me, if wasteminster thought that England was subsidising Scotland they would have got rid of us long ago.
You can smell the fear on them whenever the word 'independance' is mentioned.
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66 Clickety click
Who's going to bail out England when you can no longer bleed the Scottish nation dry.
Tax payers in Scotland pay a lot more than people in England, business rates, water rates, electricity, petrol and water so prices can be kept low down south.
Scotland is the only region of the uk to pay it's way for 18 out of the last 18 years with England's balance of payments deficit in such a state that it would make Robert Mugabe cringe.
You might see things like Crossrail, the dome, Wembley etc. going up and thinking that England is rich but these would have been impossible without the theft of Scotlands wealth.
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61. At 11:35pm on 14 May 2010, enneffess wrote:
"Erm, please explain. Scotland is rather well off (could be even better).
If you want to see true starvation read up on Tanzania."
What , should us Scots say " oh well look at Tanzania at least it's
not as bad as that ?" come on I said it's time to get real .
Does anyone in Scotland look there as an example in which direction we
base our country ? Part of changing a country is changing the peoples
outlook and I want that outlook to be a positive one .Independence
is a fresh start , one where the people of Scotland take control
of there future and embrace it with positive ideals . That starts
by questing there current deep routed self-doubt about there nations capability's ( which is a clear sign of Scots been constantly bombarded
with seeds of doubt ) and replacing it with an optimistic state of mind .
One that doesn't really exist in Scotland . Ask most Scots why do you want to stay in the union ? There answers will probably be sentimental , emotional and mostly with a hint of self-doubt all based on FEAR !
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40. At 8:52pm on 14 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
32. Ron McArthur
"Roll on the new dawn."
Aye, there are some people so open minded, I am humbled to be in their presence. May what you wish for others, come to you in abundance.
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66. Alan
Oh dear. Had you stopped your post about half way through then it would have been simply a repetition of your political creed. Unnecessary, repetitive, but at least straightforward.
Then you made the mistake of trying to be funny. Stick to the day job.
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#39 enneffess
Sarcastic? Me?
We were told that, in order to safeguard the UK economy, the UK government needed to bail out the banks and other financial institutions. We are now told that, the UK having bankrupted itself in order to accomplish this, as it was already in debt up to its eyeballs, poor little Scotland, having had its entire oil wealth siphoned off by Blighty for the past thirty years and more, should now impoverish itself further, by means of deep public spending cuts, to help bail out the UK government, as the UK is now being speculated against by bailed-out banks and other financial institutions, which need to engage in endless speculation to restore their balance sheets after blowing everything on socially useless speculation on such things as synthetic securities which were not and are not worth the paper they were printed on.
Does this get Scotland out of a hole or further into the labyrinth? If you want to find your way out of the labyrinth of casino capitalism, should you expect casino capitalism to help you, given that it is the Minotaur? If it is a choice between the Minotaur and independentist socialism . . . some folk may just flee the Minotaur.
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67. Harry Stottle
"Believe me, if wasteminster thought that England was subsidising Scotland they would have got rid of us long ago."
That is the divide and rule argument that the Brits deploy again and again.
The Brits don't want to protect England any more than Scotland. If you look at the distribution of public spending within England they massively discriminate against the North, East and West of England as well. The South East "subsidises" these areas because they have deliberately concentrated wealth and power in the Home Counties.
The British political elite look after themselves and their own. The English (at least those in large areas of that country) are as much "victims" as us.
It is a fundamental error to assume that the "English" benefit. Those that do are the British elite, and those proximate to them. Only independence for both countries can end British dominance (which is there whichever UK party/parties are in power).
Many English are currently learning to blame the Scots for their problems, as some in Scotland still haven't learned that the English are/should be our friends and allies. Only the Brits are the problem.
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69. 1scot4scotland
"Ask most Scots why do you want to stay in the union ? There answers will probably be sentimental , emotional and mostly with a hint of self-doubt all based on FEAR !"
Much in that - but bombast and exhortation won't overcome it. The economic case needs to be made carefully, honestly and straightforwardly if that fear is to be overcome. What's a little difficult just now, is that we don't yet have the economic data for the post credit crunch period - it all relates to the previous boom period.
Now my guess is that the City of London (which was the biggest tax provider during the years of the financial bubble) will have proved to be a liability rather than a strength to the UK economy - and that Scotland's strength in exporting high value niche markets may have become much more significant. But until we have the next set of GERS data, then it won't be clear.
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As someone has already pointed out oldnat, the difficulty in making the case honestly and straightforwardly is thwarted by a media trying to prevent that case being made.
( in that I include the self important BBBC who thinks its more popular than the Royal family , though why they thought they should make that comparison is beyond me)
To the chap who thinks Scotland is subbbed by England , I ask you to answer this question ,
Why ,if we are such a drain on ENGLISH tax payers and have been since the Darian experiment as some would have you believe, does Westminster want to hang on to us sooooo desperately?
And spare me the " united we stand ,divided we fall " drivel.
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72. frankly francophone:
If you want the "true socialists" to run the country, fine.
But hard-core socialists, amongst other things, want the following:
Minimum wage of about £8 per hour
Punitive tax levels for high earners
A range of high value social benefits
The first two would destroy the economy. Why? If you raise minimum salaries too high, then companies have to compensate for the additional cost by either (a) reducing headcount and/or (b) increasing prices for their goods/services. That puts them at an immediate disadvantage in the global economy. Before 1960 that would work. But this is 2010, and labour costs are massively cheap in the Far East - exploitation is a better word. If a company cannot sell its goods or services it lays staff off. That increases your welfare costs.
As to punitive tax levels for high earners, Sheridan and co are not targetting millionaires, but senior level management. What is the point in punishing those who create employment? They would simply move to England. Why should someone, who has worked long hours, put their house at risk, who has built up a company from scratch, employed people locally, be punished for being successful?
Social benefits are fine, especially those which support the ill, disable and elderly. I benefited directly from incapacity benefit 10 years ago after being very seriously ill. But these have to be paid for. And if you apply the first two policies then you are putting the third at grave risk.
If the socialists are so good, then why did they lose all their seats?
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69. 1scot4scotland:
Some people are fearful. But others simply do not trust the word of a politician. Every single party - every one - promises that things will be better. But the sad truth is that little ever changes, so some people wonder why take a risk?
The way forward is to take small steps, not a giant leap into the unknown, and to be frank I doubt if the majority of the population would accept such a major change. The SNP have achieved government, they now need to consolidate their position to get people comfortable with them in government. People then experience first hand the changes.
But you also have to accept that some people don't want change, no matter what is wrong.
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66. Alan
"I am sure you will not be surprised to learn that I do not really want to see the destruction of the Union, but I must admit to being absorbed by the apparent desperate desire for it from some people. I do not understand why this should be so, or why they feel Scotland would be better through independance or even why they think they have a right to expect it? It is not as if the Scottish people have been disenfranchised, or had their land stolen or their children put into slavery. Also, Scotland has been a heavily subsidised community for a very long time (I think you must disregard the "it's oor oil" argument - a) because it is not and b) it is a finite resource - what would Scotland do when it runs out?). How would you finance your public services and welfare bills from such a small taxpayer base? Particularly as a large proportion of the civil service jobs would certainly be relocated south of the border. There would also be the cost of maintaining border controls (to stop the unemployed Scots from sneaking South to claim benefits - sounds like another four feet high wall would be required - but we would get the Poles to build that). I think Trident would have to come south (but I think that should happen anyway) so Scotland's standing within the UN would be on a par with Nigeria. Come to think of it, there would be no need to dream up military shipbuilding requirements to buy votes on the Clyde - paid for mainly by the England taxpayer."
Your hatred and scorn Scotland, I have to wonder why you don't want to see the destruction of the union. Why do we want to be independent to run our own affairs? For the same reason that every other nation in the world does. Because that is what nations do. Because our concerns and priorities are not those of England and being tied together in an unequal union is breeding nothing but the same hatred that you so clearly show in your post.
As for the finances, although a long way from my first concern, sorry but most of the oil is ours. So is our water. So is our wind and sea power. And so is our long and continuing record of scientific and technical achievement. Those stay with us too.
However, I actually think that England will do just fine once it gets used to standing on its own two feet once again.
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I think meetings between Mr Cameron and Mr Salmond will be excellent for anglo-scottish relation as both parties have much in common. Both hate or abhor the labour party and have an agenda to destroy the labour party.
Sure its agreed cuts in government spending are a part of the money owners worries but how to do this without losing the support of one’s electors is a big issue facing both men equally. I think Salmond will sell out the labour held areas services first then after the next election sell out the rest of Scotland.
Off course i am not the only one to hold this view but amid the triumphant fervour of the moment its always worthwhile printing sceptical stories as well as the pro right wing stuff.
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#13. At 6:55pm on 14 May 2010, alfred_son_of_ethelwulf wrote:
You Scots are way too 'canny' to go for independance.
When you are grown up enough to be able to spell, "Independence", you, just may, be able to understand it. For the moment, I can only speculate you are not here for political debate but for a childish laugh, (by your way of it), at the Jocks. Suffice to say you have everything wrong and do not understand what you are talking about. Let us hope you are not typical of your country and its people.
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66. Alan
"I do not understand why this should be so, or why they feel Scotland would be better through independance or even why they think they have a right to expect it? "
Why the way, you may be under the impression that England somehow "acquired" Scotland and it now belongs to the English (or British as Oldnat prefers).
You didn't.
There was something called the Treaty of Union in which the two nations agreed to be governed by one joint parliament. Treaties can be broken and in this case certainly should be.
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# 24. At 8:09pm on 14 May 2010, alfred_son_of_ethelwulf wrote:
19. At 7:25pm on 14 May 2010, perthski
That's a great idea ... you've probably got more chance of getting 20 seats in England, than you have of getting 20 seats in Scotland.
Get Mad 'Eck to campaign down south .... and I'll give him my vote !!!!
Are we expected to campaign in England for England's independence, (That's Independance to you)? Go back whence you came and campaign for English independence. It is not Alex Salmonds job to fight for English independence in England. Any more than it is your job to fight for English independence in Scotland.
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Someone said "Why ,if we are such a drain on ENGLISH tax payers and have been since the Darian experiment as some would have you believe, does Westminster want to hang on to us sooooo desperately?"
No idea. Absolutely no idea whatsoever.
I can see what Scotland gets out of the Union, but there's nowt in it for England.
Maybe the Westminster lot are all British nats
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75. At 07:11am on 15 May 2010, Diabloandco wrote:
As someone has already pointed out oldnat, the difficulty in making the case honestly and straightforwardly is thwarted by a media trying to prevent that case being made.
( in that I include the self important BBBC who thinks its more popular than the Royal family , though why they thought they should make that comparison is beyond me)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yip, we see the full psychological force of the "establishment" at work through the cleverly worded news bulletins, carefully chosen pictures and considered voice tones which work on the weak minded or ill informed.
Also however until people have the courage not to vote labour because there granddad did Scotland will continued to be held back.
Labour is the enemy of Scotland, Its ethos encourages a climate of sloth and expecting everyone else to do things for you. These people have no spirit and no enterprise.
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#79 true grit....'Both hate or abhor the labour party and have an agenda to destroy the labour party.'
erm ... this is only in your heed. How do you come to this conclusion that the SNP hate Labour. Sure at FMQs, the SNP attack Labours history at bad government but its hardly 'hate'. I myself would not vote for any of the other three big parties in Scotland at the moment purly because the SNP have not really had a chance to govern properly yet. Shame the same cant be said fot the other 3. If you want to see hate you only have to look at Iain Grey performing.... that man needs anger management courses.. and possibly a blood pressure check.
'I think Salmond will sell out the labour held areas services first then after the next election sell out the rest of Scotland'
Ah so we can deduce you are a staunch Labour supporter and probably you think that promoting a non existant SNP = anti Glasgow line is funny. Time to wake up mate...... did you not notice Labour were in charge for a long time and what exactly have they done for your poor city ?
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Isn't it strange the person who is referring my posts that, They, perceive as Anti-English, has not also referred the very Anti-Scottish posts in this blog. I have had several posts referred by someone you obviously cannot understand the plain English language used. I suspect this is the same person posting rather nasty ageist and sexist remarks. It is difficult to understand such petty behaviour.
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#83 ..... 'I can see what Scotland gets out of the Union, but there's nowt in it for England'
Best campaign for either a) your own parliament or b) a referendum to split the union, then. Not much point in just moaning about it on here !
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Noone on here seems to question the SNP legitimacy. Over 80% of the Scottish electorate voted for the 'Unionist' parties. The SNP won only 3% more of the votes than the much derided Conservatives. Westminster representation down by 25%. Why is six-seat-Salmond the legitimate voice of Scotland?
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#35. At 8:40pm on 14 May 2010, Vakov2000 wrote:
Rather than looking from money from London we need democratic control of our country. More powers please who cares about money, well unless we're talking fiscal autonomy.
Whoa! There! The funds Alex Salmond is asking for are already Scottish funding. The £700 odd million are Scottish funding the last Westminster administration withheld for reasons best known to themselves. The request is now for these funds to be unfrozen for Scotland's use. Fact is these funds cannot be used for anything other than Scottish funding and will not come from present UK budgeting.
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#79 true grit
Apart from your view that Cameron and Salmond want to "destroy the labour party", what other policies do you think they have in common?
I am amazed that you consider that the SNP, who had to resort to a public appeal for the £50,000 the needed to take the BBC to judicial review, are part of the "money owners". I would have thought that the labour party who benefitted from a £1,000,000 cheque from JK Rowling have more in common with the "money owners" than the SNP.
Have you any evidence to give us that you are not the only one with this highly individual take on the present political process in Scotland?
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As far as I have read this morning on Brian's blog there's not much respect for anyone hurling abuse at each other is not going to solve anything.
Whilst I'm sure Mr Cameron means well we will have to wait and see what happens to his respect for Scotland when it comes to the crunch. Alex Salmond is not stupid and is fully aware of the respect Scotland was afforded under the last Conservative government.
I would however say that the anti Scottish comments are not helpful and I would have to ask politely and respectfully if you are English living in Scotland why are you here if it's such a bad place full of scroungers and ner do wells etc.
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#41. At 8:53pm on 14 May 2010, alfred_son_of_ethelwulf wrote:
29. At 8:22pm on 14 May 2010, perthski
It's quite strange really. In a ideal world the Scots and the English would get a full referendum on independance.
Although you might not agree, in my view the Scots would vote AGAINST independance. That is for the reasons I quoted in my earlier post (No 13 I believe), and also because there are a majority who strongly believe in the Union and all it has achieved throughout history. Let's face it, there is no-one more British than a Rangers fan.
On the other hand, even though they will NEVER give us a referendum on independance (see promised vote on the Lisbon treaty etc), I believe a majority of the English would vote FOR full independance. Again, you might not like it but the view is we are not getting the same level of services as you (also the Welsh and Northern Irish as well), and we would be better off without you. 13 years of Nu Labour mis-management has
raised the level discontent with the Union to new levels. You would often see the Union flag hanging from houses, nowadays it is always the COSG.
----------------------------------
Look Son, (Do you mind if I call you that)? Considering that your, "FACTS", are, one and all, based upon either ignorance or mis-information, then your conclusions are just as much lies or mis-information as the facts. So here is a wee challange for you - Direct us to the official figures that show The English are subsidising anyone? English newspapers are NOT official figures. Neither are, UNITED KINGDOM , figures, English figures. Now run along and do your research properly this time - There's a good chap.
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#46. At 8:58pm on 14 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
36. Wee-Scamp
"The arrogance of this man beggars belief."
That's not arrogance. That's ignorance.
Actually - it is both. More like arrogance born out of ignorance.
(Hope our resident mod does not refer that one as well as the others they refered as anti-English. After all it is personal to one poster NOT THE WHOLE ENGLISH NATION).
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#73. At 01:09am on 15 May 2010, oldnat wrote:
"Many English are currently learning to blame the Scots for their problems"
Ah that's a win win for Westminster; take our oil to prop up their tottering economy and at the same time divert attention away from their own failings by blaming us (Scottish) foreigners for the state of the said "British" economy. :-)
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I note that someone has said on here that a contributor’s inability to spell a certain word has a direct correlation to his or her maturity.
I am sure that the person making that observation is aware that a feature of this blog is the ability to click on anyone's moniker and review the spelling, grammar and maturity of communication of anyone.
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#66 Alan
"Yes, I do like UKIP's policy on Europe, but that is because I believe in a trading relationship with the EEC and not a political relationship. ... I do not understand why this should be so, or why they feel Scotland would be better through independance or even why they think they have a right to expect it? ... I think Trident would have to come south ... so Scotland's standing within the UN would be on a par with Nigeria. ... Actually, I am warming to the idea. I almost wish we could try it just for the laugh."
Gracious of you, but perhaps explanatory of why UKIP policies attracted 0.7% of the vote in Scotland compared to a massive 3.5% in England.
Interesting that you seem to think Scotland has no right to self-determination yet you apparently support the UK's continued membership of the UN and seat on the UNSC. Does that not strike you as somewhat two-faced given that the UK helped draft and were original signatories of the UN Charter which enshrines the right to national self-determination?
Have you also considered the situation of the dual monarchy and wondered what the situation would be if the "modernisers" have their way and attempt to change the rules of succession? Perhaps UKIP have, when their policy on The Monarchy ignores three of the home nations but includes "UKIP fully supports the British Monarchy and its Constitutional role. We oppose disestablishment of Church, and believe the Monarch should remain Defender of the Faith – faith being the Church of England". Not entirely unexpected, perhaps, but somewhat awkward when the monarch must still by law be a member of the Church of Scotland to assume the Scottish throne. Still, an interesting way in which the UK could yet fragment automatically.
I have to agree with you that Scotland's standing within the UN would rise to be on a par with Nigeria - a huge improvement on the current situation. With recent new oil finds, it might even join Nigeria as members of OPEC.
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#49. At 9:01pm on 14 May 2010, Jason wrote:
"At least Cameron made an early effort to build bridges, was up to speed (admitted by FM Salmond) on the issues and agrees with Calman reforms".
There are several things to say about all this. First is this, "Respect", must be earned and in his acceptance speech we had nothing but disrespect from our newly royally installed Prime Minister. He was on about, "This country", "His Country", "The Whole Country", and so on. So which of the four countries that make up the United Kingdom was he referring to? That aside, he backs the present system that so laughingly passes as the democracy of the United Kingdom. He is right into reform of the same. Thing is his, "Respect", and, "Reform", of that parliament are far more towards assuring his hold upon power than sorting the broken democracy. There are several matters he has set his mind on. Fixed term Parliaments, 55% needed to bring down a government, Political Reforms, Referendum on Alternative Vote System, Cut in number of MPs, Calman, Referendum of Devolution powers for Wales, Review of Scottish MPs voting on English-only Matters. Yet not one word about the real problem that has caused most of those matters. Three unequally Devolved countries and one country goverened and funded as the United Kingdom whose MPs double up as the English-only Domestic affairs matters they want to stop other United Kingdom MPs voting upon. Yet these same 533 English MPs outvote all other countries when it comes to the UK parliament deciding how to fund and dole out the Capped Block Grants to the other three countries.
There is only two solutions - England has her own parliament, like everyone else, and we all get equal devolved powers. The second solution is total independence for all four countries. So whaur's yer respect fir Scotland noo?
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I firmly believe that Scotland WILL receive its independance from the United Kingdom, but it will be pertially to the SNP. Yes they have raised the subject and will fight on, but it will be Westminster who will raise the subject and have a vote allowing Scotland to be totally independant from the Union.
The deed will happen around 2040, ONCE THE OIL RUNS OUT and Scotland no longer has the ability to finance the rest of the UK government and keep the Labour, Conservative and Lib-Democrats' noses stuck in the Westminster trough.
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#88 undertoner
Why should the "legitimacy" of the SNP be under question? Was the Union the issue, or even an issue, in the Westminster election?
If the Westminster election is decided on a FPTP basis what relevance is the fact that the SNP got a higher share of the vote than the Conservatives? The SNP got 6 times more seats in Scotland than the Conservatives fighting a Westminster election on Westminster rules.
As well as your logical skills, even your mathematical skills require improvement; a loss of one in seven is not 25%.
And Alex Salmond speaks for Scotland as he leads the largest party in the Parliament at Holyrood.
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66 Allan said 'I think Trident would have to come south (but I think that should happen anyway)'
It always amazes me that the Westminster Government and others consider the Trident base to be a 'prize'. I used to live right next to Coulport and could watch from my window the submarines go back and forth. Yes once upon a time this area was booming - this was when the infrastructure around the base and the huge WMD storage areas was being constructed, but now things are very different. This is rather a sad and run down area now - the construction workers have long since packed up and left and there has been a serious reduction in associated jobs. Large areas of naval housing lie sad and forlorn and Helensburgh itself is rather run down. I have never been able to understand how the people of Scotland could allow the Government to build a nuclear base with all its associated dangers right in the most highly populated area of the country - only 30 miles from Glasgow. I for one would be more than happy for the whole lot to be shipped south(and that includes the seven decommissioned subs at Rosyth)
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Auld Bob,
Could you post some of the links where you can find out the various funding reports for the UK.
I watched Paxman being made a fool of by a Welsh politician recently and have found it difficult in making headway in trying to find the type of information they were referring too.
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If true, the Herald's Cameron in £180m pledge for Scotland would be a glimmer of good news for Scotland and bad news for "Scottish" Labour, telling us:
"The cash from the Fossil Fuel Levy has languished for years in a London bank account, effectively frozen under Treasury rules. Alex Salmond expressed hope that this money would be forthcoming, but senior LibDem sources said this battle had already been won and Cameron had agreed to let new Scottish Secretary Danny Alexander take the credit in coming days."
However, they can't help themselves from finishing with a typical soundbite from dour Iain Gray: "David Cameron’s visit should not be just a photo-opportunity. He knows the Tories were overwhelmingly rejected by the Scottish electorate as were the SNP. Labour is the voice of Scotland."
Aye, right and just what did successive Labour viceroys do about this?
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#102
It seems that Iain Gray is still in the dourocks. That perceived attitude can only be to his detriment. He fools himselves into thinking he speaks for the Scottish people.
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#54. At 9:28pm on 14 May 2010, alfred_son_of_ethelwulf wrote:
"No 45. Electric Hermit:Your a very strange person, you seem to like to take little bits from a persons post totally out of context ... and make some sort of 'witty' comment on it. :I think I'm getting it now:Electric Hermit wrote at No 51:"changed overnight ....":Something you've probably not done for 4 weeks .... I wondered what that smell was !!!
Well!"alfred_son_of_ethelwulf",(Do you mind if I shorten that to, "Son")? You just do not get it at all. You have come to a blog about Scottish Politics, (and you are very welcome to do so), That means it is about Scottish politics not for Scots to debate Politics. First of all you expose your ignorance by not even being able to spell, "Independence", then you launch into a rather insulting tirade of myth and propaganda statements that you obviously believe to be true. Now, while most others reading the blog will know the truth, you obviously do not. It really should not be our place to educate you in your ignorance but most of us are probably willing to do so - but are you prepared to listen and be educated?. I suspect you are not.
I have already challanged you to show official figures to back up your claim that , "England", subsidises Scotland. However, I will suppliment that request in several ways by asking your opinion on several key questions.
1 - How can England subsidise anyone when England does not have a Treasury?
2 - How can an England, that is in Fiscal Deficit, manage to fund herself?
3 - What coffers do the "Extra-Regio", revenues from the Scottish Sector of the North Sea go into?
4 - How are Crown Estate revenues managed and what coffers do they contribute to?
5 - Where is the parliament that deals with the same English matters as that of the Scottish Parliament, The Welsh Assembly and the Norther Irish Assembly?
6 - Where is the above English domestic affairs set-up situated?
7 - Where does the English funding come from and who contributes to it.
8 - What coffers does the VAT and other tax gathered by UK wide firms, (supermarkets, road fuel forecourts, Etc.), go into?
Frankly - I do not expect any answers from you - and furthermore do not even expect you to explain why you cannot, or will not, answer such simple questions.
That being the case, do you not think it would be wise to keep your tongue between your teeth until you can answer the questions?
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65. oldnat
Precisely.
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PS to my #102
After the obligatory nat-bashing, the "Scottish" Sun's Eck kept in check actually has some reasonable information on yesterday's PM/FM meeting, quite reasonably quoting the FM with: "I saw no benefit in a party political dialogue. I didn't expect that, three days into office, the Prime Minister would be a convert to Scottish independence."
It goes on to inform us that: "After the talks at St Andrews House yesterday, it emerged Scotland could be set for £180million green energy boost. Every household in Scotland pays a green tax on top of its fuel bill to fund renewable energy projects. Labour refused to release the cash, but Mr Salmond revealed the PM is ready to give ground on a policy which was in the Lib Dem manifesto. He added: `I am hopeful, but I am not claiming the Prime Minister has agreed´."
Again, much better news for the Scottish and Westmidden governments, yet dour Iain Gray can't help himself from saying: "Alex Salmond may be ready to co-operate in making Tory cuts, but Labour is not. David Cameron must realise it is Labour who speaks for Scotland."
It really does seem that without the last viceroy to direct his attention, Mr Gray is lost for new words.
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#55. At 9:32pm on 14 May 2010, D W Scott wrote:
"to govern as consensually as possible"
I must just be imagining Salmond's endless winging then!!
Then perhaps you would care to quote examples of this alleged whinging?
Details of the whinge and why you percieve it as a whinge rather than a legitimate and justified request from the First Minister of the Country of Scotland. I suspect I will not get an answer as, per usual, these kind of observatons come from utter ignorance and toxic press propaganda. Please feel free to prove me wrong.
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76. enneffess
You forgot to capitalise the name of your diety!
The Economy is set fair to destroy everything else, but Fear Not, for it is doomed to fail in that.
;-)
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81. At 08:14am on 15 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
" There was something called the Treaty of Union in which the two nations agreed to be governed by one joint parliament."
The Scottish people were not given a vote on this matter; it was imposed on them by their rulers who benefited financially from the decision, although not by as much as they expected.
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PPS to my #102
Odd that the NBBC doesn't mention anything regarding the Fossil Fuel Levy, when Labour's old chums, the Grauniad report: "Salmond said Cameron appeared most supportive of requests to release £170m in Scottish funds held by Ofgem from the fossil fuel levy – a request Labour repeatedly rejected. Salmond said he was struck by Cameron's willingness to listen to his case – a dramatic difference from the frequently hostile and dismissive attitude of the last prime minister, he said."
See their David Cameron cosies up to Alex Salmond and tries to earn Scotland's trust. Unlike the North British MSM, the Grauniad omit all reference to the eminently forgettable Mr Gray.
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The election messages to Scotland from the SNP for the 2010 Election should be
"Labour - holding Scotland back"
"SNP - for Scotland's brighter future"
but then again, I am no SNP political strategist
We will have to wait to see if Labour can come up with a positive message.
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109. Sheneval
True, but I am sure Anne was aware of this, I believe the Scottish people even rioted on hearing the news.
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104. Auld Bob
"First of all you expose your ignorance by not even being able to spell"
challanged should be challenged
suppliment should be supplement
Norther I think you meant to say Northern.
Glasshouses!
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#66. At 00:16am on 15 May 2010, Alane:
In your reply to ,"To Barbazenzero", from previous thread. You made lots of points - however each and every one of these fall down in one little phrase within your long reply. "It is not as if the Scots are disenfranchised". Sadly they are.
The situation from when the Union came about no longer holds true. Once parliament's constituent parts, (constituencies), elected an individual from those constituencies and these individuals were all equal. Then, attempting to gain political advantage, they started to form political parties. Now individual members were no longer equal. This situation has become more and more the case until now democracy has been destroyed by those parties. Dovolution has seen three unequally devolve countries being ruled by one country that has grabbed The House of Commons as its own parliament. It is dominated by 533 Members outvoting 117 from other countries and that parliament not only dictates the powers of the others but doles out their funding. We are indeed now disenfranchised.
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#95. At 09:35am on 15 May 2010, pickmemiss
Pulling up people for pulling up other people for their grammar & spelling appears to be the new 'pulling up people for their grammar & spelling'.
I hope to be the first to pull up people for pulling up other people for pulling up people for their grammar & spelling.
My head hurts.
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Ian Bell writes interestingly - if at times rather bitterly - on the FM/PM meeting in the Herald's Two nations divided by a common political language.
He's spot on with both
"Salmond has a case, of course. He had a case when Labour was in power, and much good it did him. “Olympic consequentials” – a true competitive sport – should, indeed, be forthcoming in recognition of the billions committed recklessly to the London games. Belfast and Cardiff agree. “Accelerated capital expenditure” may, meanwhile, amount to shoddy book-keeping, but there are worse notions in a fiscal crisis."
and
"Taken together, that lot comes to around £700m. It would neatly offset the first tranche of spending cuts – calculated at £600m – due to be imposed on Scotland. But you don’t have to guess the reaction from Cameron’s friends in the metropolitan Tory media: still more largesse from the hard-pressed families of England for the “subsidised” Scots?"
But he also has a point with
"Cameron’s Tories may be a busted flush in Scotland, and their Liberal chums may be heading for deep, deserved trouble, but the question for the SNP and Labour is simple: what are they going to do next?"
and I suspect his bitterness comes from his admission that Labour's problem derives from the fact that
"We needed two referendums to gain limited home rule. We have still to secure the semblance of economic powers, least of all borrowing powers, for the parliament. We still occupy the strange limbo in which a British General Election matters to Scotland yet leaves swathes of policy and most of the political landscape untouched. And our political class remains in the throes of an identity crisis."
Interesting times, indeed.
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78. At 08:07am on 15 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
As for the finances, although a long way from my first concern, sorry but most of the oil is ours. So is our water. So is our wind and sea power. And so is our long and continuing record of scientific and technical achievement. Those stay with us too.
Well done. Remarkably Thatcherite in thinking, who said, she did nothing for Scotland. Keep it up, Unionists applaud you.
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115. ambi
And so it should! Pedant!
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It is very wearing to keep reading about breaking up the United Kingdom,
we'll finish up like former Yugoslavia if we're not careful.
Perhaps we should be looking for a more federal solution. The English speaking, federal democracies of U.S.A., Canada and Australia have been very successful. Perhaps the UK could have four or five self governing provinces, with London as the federal capital; similar to Washington DC, Ottawa or Canberra. Incidentally, as a regular visitor to Nova Scotia, I've never heard of a New Scotland Independence party.
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#76 enneffess
"If you want the "true socialists" to run the country, fine."
I am afraid that you have gone off at a tangent, having apparently misunderstood my #72, in which I did not advocate anything. There is a distinction to be drawn, I venture to suggest, between analysis and advocacy. I cannot but commend it to you.
It may reasonably be maintained, and I see no point in ignoring the possibility, that independentist advocates of socialism may benefit from the developing politico-economic situation in which Scotland now founds itself. This is something which it seems to me to be not unreasonable to take into consideration whether one is a socialist or not. I am afraid that Tommy Sheridan would never have mistaken me for a socialist when our paths crossed ever so slightly in the Thatcher era. He would not even have mistaken Jack McConnell for one, not even in those days, although Jack was making many of the right noises then. By 'right noises' I do of course mean in that context left noises.
As severely damaging austerity measures are introduced by the ConDems to reduce the dangerous and unsustainably astronomical level of UK public debt, caused in large part by arguably misguided efforts to rescue the financiers of casino capitalism from their own deregulated excesses, which they have not given up and are indeed pursuing with vigour by mounting speculative attacks against heavily indebted governments that have bailed them out, it may just conceivably dawn on one or two bewildered and shell-shocked innocent bystanders that the economy, which was already in a structurally unsatisfactory condition, has at the very least been seriously damaged by the liberally deregulated financial system, which has itself been seriously damaged, which is one reason why it continues to pose a serious threat to the economy, as the implementation of draconian ConDem austerity measures designed to placate the financial markets may be said to demonstrate.
It may reasonably be argued, and is so argued by some economists, that in the financial crisis dating from 2007 the capitalist system as we know it crossed a threshold beyond which it is impossible for it to be viable in the long term unless it is radically and globally reformed. If socialists see an opportunity here and manage to take advantage of it, it will not be wholly surprising. To make this observation is not to advocate socialism. It is merely to make an observation.
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102. Barbazenzero
Still nothing on this from the BBC though.
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#79. At 08:13am on 15 May 2010, true grit wrote:
I think meetings between Mr Cameron and Mr Salmond will be excellent for anglo-scottish relation as both parties have much in common. Both hate or abhor the labour party and have an agenda to destroy the labour party.
You may be very surprised to learn that most SNP supporters are inclined to be democratic, socialist, very slightly left of center. Thus they should have much more in common with a party that claims to be a democratic, socialist left of center Labour Party. The present Labour Party are in no way like the description given. Thus it is not the Labour Party that is, not so much hated, as dispised, by most SNP supporters and it is not the supporters of that party that are dispised but the leaders and minions who are so self serving, bitter little people who have gained power and now dominate the once great Labour party.
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55. D W Scott
"I must just be imagining Salmond's endless winging then!!"
You've identified your problem. That's progress.
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#117 Ron McArthur
"Well done. Remarkably Thatcherite in thinking, who said, she did nothing for Scotland. Keep it up, Unionists applaud you."
So who do you think should benefit from the oil, wave, wind and sea power plus the water which authorities in England wilfully squander? Can you quote any references outwith Scotland which deal meaningfully with the issue?
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61. enneffess
"Tommy is a true socialist, but his economic policies would destroy any private enterprise in Scotland. He might want a socialist state somewhere left of Communism. I don't and neither do most Scots judging by the performance of SSP, Respect and whoever else is involved."
Has somebody suggested that their might be a possibility of Tommy Sheridan's style of socialism being realised? It is good to have all shades of political opinion represented in parliament. It makes for better scrutiny and oversight. Tommy Sheridan would ask the kind of meaningful questions of the First Minister that would never even occur to a dullard such as Ian Gray.
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105. At 10:30am on 15 May 2010, Cash Hughes wrote:
65. oldnat
* "Such an approach also has advantages for the SNP and Tories in the 2011 elections, of course......they are so concerned with themselves rather than the people and unfit as a vehicle for progressing the interests the Scots - or even the British."
Precisely.
___________________________________
As Oldnat doesn't appear to have spotted this, I hope he doesn't mind me doing it on his behalf:
It is not appropriate here to "Quote" a deliberately reversed miss-quote as you have done (For others: Oldnat was using the second phrase to describe Liebour)
Have the courage to make your point yourself, or desist.
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#74. At 01:20am on 15 May 2010, oldnat wrote:
"Now my guess is that the City of London (which was the biggest tax provider during the years of the financial bubble)
Before you go any further with that little viewpoint, ideology, or whatever you care to call it, let me just correct you on one little point. The City of London is not a, "TAX PROVIDER", in any sense of the term. The City of London generates NOTHING WHATSOEVER . What it does is gather tax generated elsewhere in the UK and throughout the World. Most of the tax is from such as VAT, Road fuel tax and revenue, tax on domestic fuel, Aggregates, Whisky or anything else earned all over the United Kingdom. Then there is the tax on profits earned elsewhere in the UK. All the City of London does is pay these taxes through head offices in the City. All that the City itself provides is profits from dealing in shares and commodities. They are tax gatherers rather than tax generators. When aa Jock Tamson's Bairns pay VAT & tax on the goods and fuels they use it ends up as tax paid through a London City Office and the profits that office makes is also on the back of Tamson's Bairns.
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66. Alan
"Yes, I do like UKIP's policy on Europe, but that is because I believe in a trading relationship with the EEC and not a political relationship. It is not what we voted for all those years ago."
In the last thread I referred to "Euromyths" - the lies and distortions peddled by Europhobes. This is a prime example of what I was talking about. The truth is that the entity that we now call the EU was always intended to be a political union. Contrary to the endlessly repeated lies, there was no pretence about this. It is explicitly stated in the preamble to the Treaty of Rome. And it was one of the main planks of the "No" campaign when the referendum was held back in 1975.
Add to this the fact that these Europhobes seriously imagine that international trade can be divorced from politics and you see what a bunch of dishonest fantasists UKIP represents.
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70. Ron McArthur
"May what you wish for others, come to you in abundance."
Then I must surely live long and prosper.
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76. enneffess
"But hard-core socialists, amongst other things, want the following:
Minimum wage of about £8 per hour
Punitive tax levels for high earners
A range of high value social benefits
The first two would destroy the economy."
Seems that was managed without any help from socialists.
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#119 BillyF
"Perhaps the UK could have four or five self governing provinces, with London as the federal capital; similar to Washington DC, Ottawa or Canberra."
Substitute the provinces for four self governing nations plus a London equivalent to the District of Columbia and the M25 as the equivalent of the beltway and you could be on to something, at least for the medium-term. It would certainly give all four "home" nations good cause to see the money thrown at London and give all four common cause to deplore it.
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79. true grit
"Both hate or abhor the labour party and have an agenda to destroy the labour party."
Simply not true. There is no hatred for the Labour Party among nationalists. There is, however, a deep distrust and loathing of the faction(s) which have usurped the party for their own purposes.
To suggest that the SNPt would "sell out the labour held areas" is clearly stupid as the these are the very areas where greater support for independence is required.
And the suggestion that the SNP's purpose is to "sell out" the whole of Scotland goes way beyond mere stupidity.
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120. frankly francophone
An absolutely brilliant sentence! And,
Indeed.
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88. undertoner
"Why is six-seat-Salmond the legitimate voice of Scotland?"
Do the words "elected government" mean anything to you?
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#121 Aiki Doki
"Still nothing on this from the BBC though."
Quite so, but there's a shock, not. Perhaps Pacific Quay are unused to having to wait so long for the party line from `Scottish´ Labour or London Labour.
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126. impeachblair
Have the courage to make your point yourself, or desist."
(shamefaced apologies!) It was not my intent to dispute Oldnat's point(s), but rather to second them both.
MEA CULPA!
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112. Aiki Doki
109. Sheneval
Can I just point out that most people in Scotland (and England) were not entitled to vote 300 years ago. Most were not even aware of the political situation and most probably weren't interested. In case you hadn't noticed, BwB didn't exist then (and even if it did some of the posts would still be waiting moderation).
Stop going on about 300 years ago. It's of little interest if any to most people. They want to see what is going to be delivered over the next few years.
---------------------
130. Electric Hermit:
What's the solution then? Give us control of the oil, as long as we don't end up with a Chavez clone in charge.
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119. BillyF
There is a difference.
These 'provinces' were not lied to by their central governments as to their relative wealth.
These 'provinces' did not have huge areas of their territory illegally pulled from their jurisdiction.
These 'provinces' were not subjected to a deliberate economic scorched earth policy to keep them subservient to the master state.
The list goes on and on.
The 'union' was voted for by 27 people and they had to be bribed (bought and sold for English gold) whilst the majority of Scots were overwhelmingly against it (even taking to rioting as a previous poster mentioned)
By todays standards the union is illegal and should be repealed by the European court of human rights.
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125. Electric Hermit:
I'm not against Tommy Sheridan in Holyrood, or George Galloway come to that. I just don't want either of them in a position of power.
Both would give Alex Salmond real opposition, something sadly lacking at present.
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83. At 08:26am on 15 May 2010, TH43 wrote:
Someone said "Why ,if we are such a drain on ENGLISH tax payers and have been since the Darian experiment as some would have you believe, does Westminster want to hang on to us sooooo desperately?"
No idea. Absolutely no idea whatsoever.
I can see what Scotland gets out of the Union, but there's nowt in it for England.
Maybe the Westminster lot are all British nats
The main reason you can see what Scotland gets out of the Union is because there are figures published for Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland. So tell me where are the figures for England? Furthermore, you will find no individual figures for what any of the four countries puts into the Union. The reason is that, like you seem to be doing, is thinking that the United Kingdom and England are the same thing. English funding is directly from the UK as she has no Block grant. However, we have no way of knowing what is spent in England by the United Kingdom and even less what she contributes. Most tax is paid into UK coffers from the City Of London Head Offices but that tax comes, not from London and not only from England.
Has that helped show what England gets from the Union?
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119. BillyF
"Perhaps the UK could have four or five self governing provinces..."
You would demote the nation of Scotland to a mere "province"? And you imagine this to be progress?
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#132 Electric Hermit
"And the suggestion that the SNP's purpose is to "sell out" the whole of Scotland goes way beyond mere stupidity."
Masterly underestatement!
Meanwhile, more revisionism from BBC Radio 4 with today's edition of the Week in Westminster, which entirely airbrushes out all of those Labour MPs, MSPs and ex-MPs who declaimed the very idea of a progressive alliance because it was not in the interests of the Labour Party. You can hear the BBC version of the process about 17m in to the programme on both the iPlayer and the podcast.
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#88. At 08:57am on 15 May 2010, undertoner wrote:
Noone on here seems to question the SNP legitimacy. Over 80% of the Scottish electorate voted for the 'Unionist' parties. The SNP won only 3% more of the votes than the much derided Conservatives. Westminster representation down by 25%. Why is six-seat-Salmond the legitimate voice of Scotland?
Rubbish! The SNP are in government at Holyrood. Labour, and every other party in Scotland but the Con Dems, are not in power at Westminster. There is ONLY 1 Conservative MP in Scotland and 11 Lib Dems, thus The Con Dems have no Scottish mandate at Westminster. What on Earth are you blethering about? Westminster is not Holyrood and Holyrood is not Westminster.
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137. enneffess
"130. Electric Hermit:
What's the solution then? Give us control of the oil, as long as we don't end up with a Chavez clone in charge."
The solution is for Scotland to have the same control over its resources as any other nation. We don't produce "Chavez clones". And if we did, nobody would vote for them.
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#137 enneffess
"In case you hadn't noticed, BwB didn't exist then (and even if it did some of the posts would still be waiting moderation)."
ROFL, if overly harsh in the rest of your post.
#139 enneffess
"Both [Tommy Sheridan & George Galloway] would give Alex Salmond real opposition, something sadly lacking at present."
There I agree with you 100%.
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#95. At 09:35am on 15 May 2010, pickmemiss wrote:
I note that someone has said on here that a contributor’s inability to spell a certain word has a direct correlation to his or her maturity.
I am sure that the person making that observation is aware that a feature of this blog is the ability to click on anyone's moniker and review the spelling, grammar and maturity of communication of anyone.
I hope you realise the remark was not about the person's age in years but about the person's political maturity? While we can, and do, all make typos, grammatical errors most, who post on political blogs, have a more than passing knowledge of the politics we blog about.
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112. At 10:53am on 15 May 2010, Aiki Doki wrote:
"109. Sheneval
True, but I am sure Anne was aware of this, I believe the Scottish people even rioted on hearing the news."
Possibly, but her response to Alan gives the impression that the Nation agreed, and as the Nation is the sum of its people, the impression given is erroneous.
It must be remembered that the Franchise was confined to the wealthy at that time and the ordinary people did not have a vote, which aspiration was resisted by the Tories, until they were defeated in 1832, when a limited number were given the vote under the Reform Act. This of course also applied to English people, so it was not necessarily the English people who favoured the union, but their masters in the English Parliament.
You are of course correct, there were riots in various parts of the country including Glasgow and Edinburgh.
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86. Auld Bob
In reference to your posts, once I have put my glasses back on and have straightened my hair after reading them (such was the 'woosh!' of the tirade, or perhaps 'tired' :-), are you aware that most of them today sound....horrible? I'm sorry they do. I'm not sure there's one that isn't. Why do you see this as such an effective way to debate? It's just appears mean Auld Bob.
If, as it seems, contributors to this blog irk you that much, why continue giving yourself such grief? Would it not seem far more sensible to post when you're more centered, for your own sanity and reputation, or avoid doing so, at least while you are so consumed, which would also be in the nation's best interests, something I do believe, I think, you are trying to further?
For I'm afraid much of what you post is just unpleasant - you make nats seem an unpleasant bunch.
I don't think all older folk have to turn into such a curmudgeon.
Just some friendly advice - I don't think you're a bad dude, I really never do bear a grudge. Of course it's entirely up to you how you take it.
By the way, the last post I referred was my own, and so long ago I can't remember when it was. But perhaps I am a well known ageist and sexist pig.
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#41 alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
I'm not sure Scotland wouldn't vote for independence - now the Tories are in that scenario is more likely.
Remember we already voted on a referendum FOR a Scottish Parliament with devolved powers which enabled us to implement some of the policies you are complaining about - we live in a democracy in the UK so people can vote on things they want.
Your arguments are politically immature to say the least - we are past this English don't like Scots and Scots don't like the English - that sort of stuff is infantile and so boring it makes me wonder what is going on inside peoples' heads.
This is about what is the best way to run our two countries in the modern age.
Its obvious the Union has arguments for and against and the same for Independence.
So please stop talking mince and get down to nuts and bolts of why independence will be good for England. And don't say
"Because we don't like the fact the Scots get free NHS prescriptions"
Which Number 1: Is not true and Number 2: Even if it was true, it's not a good enough reason to demolish the 300 year old country that is the UK.
Oh and you reckon(from your post) that David Cameron and his millions of English followers would be in favour of English independence???
Erm.... I reckon you will require A LOT of your persuasive powers to work on big Cammy and Co. for them to believe breaking up Britain is a good idea - so please start persuading ASAP!
Cheers,
JG.
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There is an interesting article in this week's New Scientist - "Age of Denial: Why so many people refuse to believe the truth"
While dealing mainly with scientific issues such as creationism and climate change it does have some general points to make about manipulation of opinion etc which, given the level of denial from ALL sides voiced herein on various 'fact and figures' and their interpretation, should be of interest to ALL.
There is also an interesting short article under the Commentary heading explaining how the academics reached their predictions on the likely outcome of the distribution of seats in the election and why they were wrong. It points up interesting differences the methodology highlighted between the USA and UK.
Finally, on a previous blog (Advice from on High, 4th May) I mentioned the presence of foreign observers to monitor the General Election.
There were in fact two teams of observers as I said in that blog. One came from the Royal Commonwealth Society, which R-E and others dismissed as being lightweight. The other team, whose details I could not remember at the time, was from the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) which is part of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE).
The ODIHR is based in Warsaw and has previously monitored elections in the UK in 2005 (General Election) and 2003 (Devolved Elections). They are a very high powered group of international experts on elections and cannot be easily dismissed. Their report should be out in 2 months or so.
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#98. At 09:49am on 15 May 2010, coineach watson wrote:
I firmly believe that Scotland WILL receive its independance from the United Kingdom, but it will be pertially to the SNP. Yes they have raised the subject and will fight on, but it will be Westminster who will raise the subject and have a vote allowing Scotland to be totally independant from the Union.
The deed will happen around 2040, ONCE THE OIL RUNS OUT and Scotland no longer has the ability to finance the rest of the UK government and keep the Labour, Conservative and Lib-Democrats' noses stuck in the Westminster trough.
Sorry to burst your bubble but ... ... ...
The expression about skinning cats springs to mind. There are ONLY two signatories to the Treaty Of Union that predates both the Scottish & English, "Acts of Union", that bound the four countries of the Union together. The reason Wales & , (at that time) Ireland did not need to sign was because both were already ruled by the English Parliament. This was over 100 years after the Union of the Crowns. Thus, to break The Treaty of Union only needs one of those parties that signed it to withdraw from the Union. Westminster, the Parliament that was built to house the United Parliament, could do nothing about it if the Scottish Members withdrew from the Union. There is now also a Scottish Parliament who could also withdraw from the union if it had the support of the people of Scotland. There are other ways to end, what is after all a business contract. NOTE THAT INDEPENDENCE COMES FROM BREAKING WITH WESTMINSTER not with England.
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116. At 11:23am on 15 May 2010, Barbazenzero
Yes, Ian Bell makes some interesting comments, in particular his musings on how Labour can respond to this.
We are seeing some of it now, they are going for the dog-whistle vote. 'Come home to Labour' Brown begged, and people did. That's their decision but we nationalists will remind those people every day that Labour cannot protect them when England votes tory. Vote for people like Curran and you will get a Tory government. People such as her are born for opposition, they thrive in it. That in truth is all they know how to do. Ask them to exercise power to improve our country and they have no clue.
Gray should remember that Salmond is not a careerist politician, if Alex was then he would have joined the Labour party and reached a senior cabinet role in London. It would be foolish to deny that (no doubt someone will). If Gray has any courage, ambition and a real desire to demonstrate how he can improve Scotland then he will grab Salmond's offer of a referendum. Or he can always become Milliband's message boy.
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#150 cwh
Thanks for the reminder re the ODIHR mission. Their report should become available here in July and make interesting summer reading.
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149. JohnnyGee
"Its obvious the Union has arguments for and against..."
So how come we never hear these "arguments for"?
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With regards to the legitimacy of the Scottish Goverment we voted for Members of the Scottish Parliament which as far as I remember was not part of a UK General Election.
If the Scottish Nation can't agree amongst themselves where does that leave democracy. I bet you would all have something constructive to say if Westmister decided to scrap Holyrood.
Getting devolved powers for Scotland was a hard fought fight. If independence comes then so be it.
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#139 .... 'Both would give Alex Salmond real opposition, something sadly lacking at present. '
Unfortunatly both are considered a bit of a joke. If you look at Tommy Sheridans troubles which i think are still ongoing with the News of the World trying to get their money back. Then you have George Galloway who thinks hes Rula Lenskas cat and also a member of a party that is in turmoil. Mind you i have a bit of respect for George in that he doesnt mince his words.
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#100. At 09:58am on 15 May 2010, mariaskid wrote:
66 Allan said 'I think Trident would have to come south (but I think that should happen anyway)'
It always amazes me that the Westminster Government and others consider the Trident base to be a 'prize'. I used to live right next to Coulport and could watch from my window the submarines go back and forth. Yes once upon a time this area was booming - this was when the infrastructure around the base and the huge WMD storage areas was being constructed, but now things are very different. This is rather a sad and run down area now - the construction workers have long since packed up and left and there has been a serious reduction in associated jobs. Large areas of naval housing lie sad and forlorn and Helensburgh itself is rather run down. I have never been able to understand how the people of Scotland could allow the Government to build a nuclear base with all its associated dangers right in the most highly populated area of the country - only 30 miles from Glasgow. I for one would be more than happy for the whole lot to be shipped south(and that includes the seven decommissioned subs at Rosyth)
One has to ask why either of you just assumes the Trident Programmes belongs to either Westminster or England? In the event of independence the assets, (whether you believe the deterant an asset or not), of the parties must, like any other divorce, be split up or part paid for by the party who gains them if a split cannot be managed. For better or worse, Scotland owns a share of all Union goods & chattels, ((chattel=(legal term), any property other than freehold land, including tangible goods (chattels personal) and leasehold interests (chattels real)).
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136. Cash Hughes
Yeah! Be more careful next time, nutcase!
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#101. At 10:06am on 15 May 2010, Sgian Dubh wrote:
Auld Bob,
Could you post some of the links where you can find out the various funding reports for the UK.
I watched Paxman being made a fool of by a Welsh politician recently and have found it difficult in making headway in trying to find the type of information they were referring too.
The Welsh Gentleman, (Who has gone up in my admiration of late), has access to the Treasury Figures that we have not. However, if you can plow through, or search through, the Office Of National Statistics this link may help - "UN National Statistics, Publications Hub"
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#103. At 10:23am on 15 May 2010, hamish42 wrote:
#102
It seems that Iain Gray is still in the dourocks. That perceived attitude can only be to his detriment. He fools himselves into thinking he speaks for the Scottish people.
Och! It is not the, "Speaking for Scotland", that matters but the "Listening of Scotland's people", that wins in the end.
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#152 govanite
Fair comment, especially re Curran.
You're also correct with your: "If Gray has any courage, ambition and a real desire to demonstrate how he can improve Scotland then he will grab Salmond's offer of a referendum. Or he can always become Milliband's message boy."
But I think we both know the answer to how much "vision" dour Iain has. The real question seems to be which Milliband he'll soon be taking orders from.
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#112. At 10:53am on 15 May 2010, Aiki Doki wrote:
109. Sheneval
True, but I am sure Anne was aware of this, I believe the Scottish people even rioted on hearing the news.
More to the point So did the English People.
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137. At 12:35pm on 15 May 2010, enneffess wrote:
"112. Aiki Doki
109. Sheneval
Can I just point out that most people in Scotland (and England) were not entitled to vote 300 years ago. Most were not even aware of the political situation and most probably weren't interested. In case you hadn't noticed, BwB didn't exist then (and even if it did some of the posts would still be waiting moderation).
Stop going on about 300 years ago. It's of little interest if any to most people. They want to see what is going to be delivered over the next few years."
Hi - are you feeling alright? - not like you to post in such terms in response to people who were exchanging posts without any rancour, relating to another post - if you see my response to Aiki Doki's 112 post it makes similar points to yours re. the voting system.
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#113. At 10:53am on 15 May 2010, pickmemiss wrote:
104. Auld Bob
"First of all you expose your ignorance by not even being able to spell"
challanged should be challenged
suppliment should be supplement
Norther I think you meant to say Northern.
Glasshouses!
Nah! It was not intended as a spelling war. More to show the person's political naivety. As to my own I plead guilty to one but I have had certain critics already complaining about my use of wir ain Lallan's leid terms such as Englander, southeron and Inglis. For these I say sorry to no one. Again the point was the posters political naivety. I await the reply to the questions I posed. It may be a while.
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162. At 2:18pm on 15 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
#112. At 10:53am on 15 May 2010, Aiki Doki wrote:
109. Sheneval
True, but I am sure Anne was aware of this, I believe the Scottish people even rioted on hearing the news.
"More to the point So did the English People."
Why is that more to the point?
I am sure you don't really mean that the Scotttish people rioting was of lesser importance or significance than those of the English people :-)
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#119. At 11:37am on 15 May 2010, BillyF wrote:
It is very wearing to keep reading about breaking up the United Kingdom,
we'll finish up like former Yugoslavia if we're not careful.
Perhaps we should be looking for a more federal solution. The English speaking, federal democracies of U.S.A., Canada and Australia have been very successful. Perhaps the UK could have four or five self governing provinces, with London as the federal capital; similar to Washington DC, Ottawa or Canberra. Incidentally, as a regular visitor to Nova Scotia, I've never heard of a New Scotland Independence party.
You started well but fell at the water jump. There are only, to the best of my knowledge, four UK countries. To split the existing UK into more is to attempt to split one or more of them. We would then be back at the point where England baulked at being split into regions. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not regions of England.
The fact is there is much in common between all four home countries that would tend to draw them together as a group of independent countries. Please, though, no, "Son of Treaty of Union", and the trouble that would cause.
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164. Auld Bob
"I have had certain critics already complaining about my use of wir ain Lallan's leid terms such as Englander"
Bob, you're stubborn by this ;-) That's fine.
Today, most people consider 'Englander', 'Scotlander' etc., to be a pejorative term. Especially by the way when used by a nat. You may be 100% correct to say it's an inaccurate definition, but as we know, language does of course evolve, and it is 100% true to say that is how the term is understood today - and that's whether we like it, or we condone it or not.
Is it not then perhaps an obstacle we need not erect, to put such a contested term alongside very worthy argument for independence?
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#137. At 12:35pm on 15 May 2010, enneffess wrote:
Can I just point out that most people in Scotland (and England) were not entitled to vote 300 years ago. Most were not even aware of the political situation and most probably weren't interested. In case you hadn't noticed, BwB didn't exist then (and even if it did some of the posts would still be waiting moderation).
Stop going on about 300 years ago. It's of little interest if any to most people. They want to see what is going to be delivered over the next few years.
! Don't talk utter rubbish - the Treaty of Union, and each countries Act of Union, are the Legal binding contract that hold the UK countries together.
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Cannot think for one minute why Cameron would think it better to be prime Minister of the UK instead of "Just" England? After all the UK has forced him to jump into bed with the Libs to get power where as he would have a sizeable majority with English only votes. He has made the right decisions within the current system to get power, he should work toward what is best for the majority now over the next few years and legislate for a future English Parliament, as the break up of the "political" union would actually strengthen all the countries of these great islands, not weaken them!!
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157 Auld Bob
One has to ask why either of you just assumes the Trident Programmes belongs to either Westminster or England? In the event of independence the assets, (whether you believe the deterant an asset or not), of the parties must, like any other divorce, be split up or part paid for by the party who gains them if a split cannot be managed. For better or worse, Scotland owns a share of all Union goods & chattels, ((chattel=(legal term), any property other than freehold land, including tangible goods (chattels personal) and leasehold interests (chattels real)).
Absolutely -There will be plenty of bits and pieces in the UK arsenal that we would like to keep - Its just that I have always been anti nuclear, and Scotland has already made clear that Trident is not one of our preferred opeions. I'm sure the naval base at Faslane will prove very useful for non nuclear purposes.
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88. At 08:57am on 15 May 2010, undertoner wrote:
Noone on here seems to question the SNP legitimacy. Over 80% of the Scottish electorate voted for the 'Unionist' parties. The SNP won only 3% more of the votes than the much derided Conservatives. Westminster representation down by 25%. Why is six-seat-Salmond the legitimate voice of Scotland?
There is a one big difference; IT WAS a UK Election, not a Scottish Election that happens NEXT YEAR. In the last Scottish Election the SNP won the Election and that gave them the RIGHT to Govern Scotland. That is why wee Alex is the First Minister.
Next year I predict the SNP will have a bigger majority next year. Why? Because the Scots will finally wake up and see the lies of the Unionist parties and see that SNP have governed for the GOOD of Scotland.
What planet is Ian Gray on, his behaviour during the FMQ, was a disgrace, he basically lied to parliament in his statement about SNP being responsible for the NHS cuts.
As for the British PM, remember who one of his heroes is, none other than the pariah of Scotland, THATCHER, plus the UK government is full of Thatcherites. So it DOES NOT bode well for Scotland or the North of England for that matter.
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167. eye_write
"Today, most people consider 'Englander', 'Scotlander' etc., to be a pejorative term. "
Notwithstanding your arrogant presumption, you do not speak for anybody other than yourself.
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# I will not debate anything with you. Some of the things you posted were grossly offensive. Not only that but the oiriginal accusations you made were extremely overblown. I have searched through the archives, (to refresh my owm memory. Not to expose you further). However, as you are unwilling to let the matter rest here is one of the posts where you accused a poster of anti-Englishness.
-----------------------------------------
35. At 06:46am on 07 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
26. uilleam_beag
"From the looks of this site's election map, England is blue -- especially the south. "
That isn't as simple as it looks (although heaven knows we'll get blamed if Labour hangs on). You get a better picture if you look at the proportional map. Labour has also hung on to a lot of seats in all the metropolitan areas including London.
And their hold on North England is almost as solid as in Scotland. That won't keep the people in England from saying that it's all Scotland's fault. Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault.
With several constituencies still out the SNP vote is 482,823 which is up from 412,267 in the last GE. Not as much as anyone hoped but still a solid rise to build on for the all-important Holyrood election.
------------------------------
70. At 09:31am on 07 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
35. GrannieAnne
"Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault."
That is blatant racism, Grannie Anne. And it's hopelessly wrong. Do not spout it in Scotland's, mine, or nationalists' name. It sounds bigoted and it drags the self determination cause back decades.
------------------------------------
Then to another poster -
---------------------------------
69. At 09:24am on 07 May 2010, D1senfranchised wrote:
So, once again, the turkeys in Glasgow have voted for Christmas. Well, good luck to you folks. I'll say nothing about postal votes or the other election debacles at least until investigations have been conducted and thoroughly whitewashed.
On another note: as we know, pre-election polling showed 40% of Scots willing to vote for independence if the Tories got in. With 43% against and the rest undecided, we'll just have to wait and see what this next year brings. It wasn't going to be a good year, no matter who won - I just didn't realise that everybody was going to lose!
---------------------------
Then you went on an ageist rant at both Grannieanne and myself and added a sexist slant at another poster.
---------------------------------
Perhaps the present very much anti-scottish slant in this present blog shows you that what Grannieanne refered to was only the truth, for low and behold, here are the English lunatic fringe blaming the Scots for everything except killing Bambi, mind you the blog is not closed yet. Noe, do you really want me to trot out your ageist and sexist posts? I'd rather not but you keep returning to wage more warfare.
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173. Auld Bob
Auld Bob, boring.
"Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault."
Yep. Racist.
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172. Electric Hermit
So, you believe "Englander", "Scotlander" not to be offensive?
You're right, one of us is in a minority!
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173. Auld Bob
With the second quote you made no further point - an oversight? However describing voters as "turkeys voting for Christmas" is offensive. No?
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#149. At 1:18pm on 15 May 2010, JohnnyGee wrote:
#41 alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
I'm not sure Scotland wouldn't vote for independence - now the Tories are in that scenario is more likely.
Good post - with two wee problems. The United Kingdom was formed when the Kingdoms were united by the union of the crowns, hence , "Kingdom", 407 years ago. The joining of the Parliaments of that United Kingdom came about after the Treaty of the Union Of The Parliaments in 1707 - 303 years age. However, The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is a political Union and not a country. You cannot have a country composed of four countries, (unless you wipe out those four countries), and Scotland, England, Wales & Northern Ireland are still here. Perhaps you would like the job of telling the English, "There always is NOT an England & England is NO longer free"?
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173. Auld Bob
"Perhaps the present very much anti-scottish slant in this present blog" ('proving you are right to hit back etc.')
So is the winner the biggest biggot?
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174. eye_write
I just said claiming that ""Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault." is indeed racist.
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#172. At 3:28pm on 15 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
167. eye_write
"Today, most people consider 'Englander', 'Scotlander' etc., to be a pejorative term. "
And your evidence for that statement is ... ... ... what?
Notwithstanding your arrogant presumption, you do not speak for anybody other than yourself.
I have made no claims to speak for everyone, nor any presumption to have done so.
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175. eye_write
"So, you believe "Englander", "Scotlander" not to be offensive?
You're right, one of us is in a minority!"
I am not offended by these terms. And you cite no authority to support your assertion that they are offensive to anyone other than yourself. It just looks like yet another of your trifling excuses to attack nationalists.
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176. eye_write
"However describing voters as "turkeys voting for Christmas" is offensive. No?"
Is there anything, other than your own tediously pious whining, that you don't find offensive?
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75. Diabloandco
"Why ,if we are such a drain on ENGLISH tax payers and have been since the Darian experiment as some would have you believe, does Westminster want to hang on to us sooooo desperately?"
The shallowness of your comment is demonstrated by your shouting the word "English" but asking the question of Westminster.
That suggests that you know the answer yourself. Westminster is the centre of power of the British. As many English people will tell you, it's the place where the British can prevent England ruling itself as well.
If you look at the polling evidence, then it's clear that a majority of people in England are happy to see Scotland become independent, if that's what the majority of Scots want. That makes a bit of a mockery of your implication that the English are desperate to hang on to us.
British Westminster, however is. The reasons are far more complex than simple economics. Without Scotland, most of the oil revenues would be lost. Control of the strategic Faroes Gap would be lost. rUK's status would be diminished, and the pressure from non members of the Security Council to replace the UK with another permanent member would be enhanced. With significant constitutional change, the people of England might force rUK to leave the EU. A traditional source of recruitment for the Armed Forces would be removed.
An additional factor is that some people are genuinely "British". That is their nation, in the same way as you and I are Scots.
However, the second half between two teams from Pictland is starting!
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127. Auld Bob
I am all in favour of free speech, all view points are to be respected. However freedom comes with responsibility. You need to at least be accurate in your rantings. The financial sector does pay corporation tax on earnings from financial services, not just profits on other peoples work.
This centre is important to the nation, I know it is easy to jump on the bandwagon and provide inaccurate outpourings on everything not Scottish, weave everything into spin towards the " English stealing from us" line. However it remains complete and utter rubbish.
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#176. At 3:53pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
173. Auld Bob
With the second quote you made no further point - an oversight? However describing voters as "turkeys voting for Christmas" is offensive. No?
Do you Really, really, want me to trot it all out again?
In the original context, (that you ignored), it was, if anything, fairly mild. It was also not aimed at a particular person. Not so your own references, nor the grossly offensive personal remarks you subsequently posted of both an ageist and a sexist nature. Now go and do something constructive rather than destructive.
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179. eye_write
"I just said claiming that ""Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault." is indeed racist."
Pompous claptrap! Neither people's are a distinct "race". At worst, this might be taken as hinting at some underlying mild xenophobia coloured by a bit of hyperbole. But even that would be a stretch given that the blogosphere is replete with individuals identifying themselves as English whilst blaming Scotland for a number and range of ills that falls not far short of "everything".
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104. Auld Bob
"1 - How can England subsidise anyone when England does not have a Treasury?
2 - How can an England, that is in Fiscal Deficit, manage to fund herself?
3 - What coffers do the "Extra-Regio", revenues from the Scottish Sector of the North Sea go into?
4 - How are Crown Estate revenues managed and what coffers do they contribute to?
5 - Where is the parliament that deals with the same English matters as that of the Scottish Parliament, The Welsh Assembly and the Norther Irish Assembly?
6 - Where is the above English domestic affairs set-up situated?
7 - Where does the English funding come from and who contributes to it.
8 - What coffers does the VAT and other tax gathered by UK wide firms, (supermarkets, road fuel forecourts, Etc.), go into?"
Questions well worth repeating! You have identified the core of the Brit distortion.
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115. ambi
"I hope to be the first to pull up people for pulling up other people for pulling up people for their grammar & spelling."
You omitted some commas! :-)
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88. undertoner
"Westminster representation down by 25%. "
You might want to check your maths. Westminster representation down by... Oh, right same as last election.
Not down at all.
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#178. At 3:56pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
173. Auld Bob
"Perhaps the present very much anti-scottish slant in this present blog" ('proving you are right to hit back etc.')
So is the winner the biggest biggot?
You tell me - you note the personal remarks you made were not referred to the mods and none of the people you made personal remarks about have reposted them. Yet you keep returning to the subject after being told I would rather let it rest. If you really want me to I will post the whole sorry mess again - but I would rather not engage in such infighting. If you must imagine anyone has won anything over the whole sorry episode, you caused to break out, then please consider yourself a winner and then shut up.
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Auld Bob,
Many thanks for the reply.
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181. Electric Hermit
I certainly agree. Why on earth would I find Scotlander offensive. It isn't generally used but there is certainly nothing offensive about it--unless I somehow considered it offensive for someone to point out that I am from Scotland.
I don't. I'm proud of it.
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180. Auld Bob
OK, so you didn't know. It's commonly held. Because the term 'little Englander' is in common usage, these terms, 'Englander' and Scotlander' are perceived as similar derivatives. 'Little Englander' is used now to describe someone who is full of their own self-importance while at the same time incapable (or unwilling) of seeing past their own national borders to form a greater understanding of the world. (I'm going to assume you know it's original meaning.) And so 'Scotlander' infers the same narrow minded insularity. Neither bestows very much respect - the 'little' part.
I can assure you I'm not making this up just to get at you!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Englander
I don't think it's moved into its third meaning yet, as English nationalism of today is in its infancy and so there are relatively unknown terms relating to it. Anyway, English nationalism certainly isn't viewed any more favourably in the mainstream than ours!
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163. Sheneval:
Apologies, but the moderation speed appears to be set to "normal", hence the post.
My point is that we need to get away from events that happened 300 years ago. You can only change these by looking forward.
---------------------------
187.oldnat:
One other question that must be answered:
How big is Scotland's share of the PFI debt?
Because next year that one will rise it's ugly head. Or more likely, and ugly head will raise the question.
----------------------
And slightly off-topic, does anyone have figures to precisely how many times did Iain Gray demand the resignation of a Scottish Government minister last year? (Multiple requests for an individual count).
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#179. At 3:58pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
174. eye_write
I just said claiming that ""Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault." is indeed racist.
No you did NOT just say that. You went some way beyond that AND you forgot to add, "in my humble opinion".
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127. Auld Bob
I should, perhaps, have placed inverted commas around "City of London". I was using the term to describe the financial sector, which actually did provide a major source of tax revenue to the UK Government during the bubble.
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193. eye_write
"It's commonly held. Because the term 'little Englander' is in common usage, these terms, 'Englander' and Scotlander' are perceived as similar derivatives."
Commonly held by you. Nobody else.
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187. oldnat
I find this list to be clear, concise and apposite.
I found the original to be so clouded by anger, froth, aggression and insult such that the message was virtually lost.
Well re-posted
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185. Auld Bob
Clutching (;-) at straws, Auld Bob.
The term "turkeys voting for Christmas" describes accepting or bringing about a situation with negative consequences for the individual, which infers that individual has limited intelectual ability to understand or else is worryingly ignorant.
Now, what is the reason for your not accepting that this is an insult? ;-)
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173. Auld Bob
"That isn't as simple as it looks (although heaven knows we'll get blamed if Labour hangs on). You get a better picture if you look at the proportional map. Labour has also hung on to a lot of seats in all the metropolitan areas including London.
And their hold on North England is almost as solid as in Scotland. That won't keep the people in England from saying that it's all Scotland's fault. Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault.
With several constituencies still out the SNP vote is 482,823 which is up from 412,267 in the last GE. Not as much as anyone hoped but still a solid rise to build on for the all-important Holyrood election.
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70. At 09:31am on 07 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
35. GrannieAnne
"Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault."
That is blatant racism, Grannie Anne. And it's hopelessly wrong. Do not spout it in Scotland's, mine, or nationalists' name. It sounds bigoted and it drags the self determination cause back decades."
You know, Auld Bob, the usual suspect here can't seem to see that it is blatant bigotry to assume that everyone in England is the same race. If I refer to the 'people in Scotland' am I referring to only the Gaels? Of course not. I am referring to a wide mix of Gaels. Or does she think that England is all one race.
The people of England have been told--time after time after time--that we Scots are getting more than our fair share and are being supported by the English. (Yes, by the English not by the union or the British. Sorry, Oldnat) Now that message was MEANT for us in order to keep us quiet and in the union (and Oldnat made a pretty good list of the reasons although there are more than he listed).
The problem is that the English got the message as well. Now they have been convinced by the British political class that we're nothing but a bunch of lazy spongers off the public purse. It's a very, very long way from true. More people in LONDON are on benefits than in Scotland. But they are convinced and you see the results here with blatantly anti-Scottish venom being poured forth. And some will insist that we have to be subjected to this without saying a word in our own defence.
Well, that's their opinion. Mine is otherwise.
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#182. At 4:05pm on 15 May 2010, Electric Hermit wrote:
176. eye_write
"However describing voters as "turkeys voting for Christmas" is offensive. No?"
Is there anything, other than your own tediously pious whining, that you don't find offensive?
The laughable thing is that I worked among a predominantly English workforce, that at one time numbered between 8,000 - 12,000 not including service personnel, and never, ever, heard onyone object to those terms. Then as if that was not silly enough, the sheer stupidity of accusing someone of calling the people of Glasgow Turkeys by use of the well known simile, "Turkeys voting for Christmas", shows something is decidedly lacking in the understanding of what a, "simile", is.
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Looks like the Staggies have blown it.
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So how did Alex get on with Dave?
Was Dave's appearance at Holyrood, just a show of strength from the westminster brigade.
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193. eye_write
"'Little Englander' is used now to describe someone who is full of their own self-importance while at the same time incapable (or unwilling) of seeing past their own national borders to form a greater understanding of the world. (I'm going to assume you know it's original meaning.) And so 'Scotlander' infers the same narrow minded insularity. Neither bestows very much respect - the 'little' part."
Are you capable of understanding that NO ONE said Little Englander? Except you?
That combined with the word "Little", Englander is offensive doesn't make the word by itself offensive. It is the PHRASE that is offensive, not the word Englander. Sheesh. What an exponent of the thought and language police you are.
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199. eye_write
"The term "turkeys voting for Christmas" describes accepting or bringing about a situation with negative consequences for the individual, which infers that individual has limited intelectual ability to understand or else is worryingly ignorant."
The term does not imply that which you infer.
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I am sorry you found it shallow oldnat, but it was in response to this and other blogsites where the tediousness of being told Scots get this and that because English tax payers subsidise it.
"It is not as if the Scottish people have been disenfranchised, or had their land stolen or their children put into slavery. Also, Scotland has been a heavily subsidised community for a very long time (I think you must disregard the "it's oor oil" argument - a) because it is not and b) it is a finite resource - what would Scotland do when it runs out?). How would you finance your public services and welfare bills from such a small taxpayer base?"
I find that offensive,inaccurate and irksome.
So if I feel like shouting ENGLISH under those circumstances you will , pray , forgive me.
And should I choose to describe someone in pejorative terms that too is my perogative.
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194. At 4:30pm on 15 May 2010, enneffess wrote:
"163. Sheneval: Apologies"
Consider the remarks unsaid :-)
I can now post my response to your post no. 76, (which I had saved and put aside, without feeling I had misjudged your character over the last couple of years)
76. At 07:52am on 15 May 2010, enneffess wrote:
"72. frankly francophone:
But hard-core socialists, amongst other things, want the following:
Minimum wage of about £8 per hour
Punitive tax levels for high earners
A range of high value social benefits"
Normally I agree with most of your posts, as you seem to be a reasonable person and most of your posts are well thought out, but I am disappointed to find someone like yourself saying that £8 for a minimum wage is an unreasonable expectation, in a country which, despite the current high level of debt, is extremely rich and where many people receive over £100k pa. (I won't use the word earn, no matter how hard they work, for I worked extremely hard myself, with long hours for much of 40 years plus without receiving, or expecting to receive, that type of money, and consider that only these at the top of the tree should receive such remuneration).
This does not include Footballers, who can get paid as much as £165k per week or BBC presenters who were paid £6 million a year.
I don't think in your heart of hearts that you will regard this as just - of course there have to be differentials, but there also has to be some correlation between the top earners and the lowest. At the moment this is completely out of control, and to put it right, you can either do it through taxation, which we certainly don't do at present, or by benefits/tax credits, which are to a certain amount demeaning for the receiver, but certainly better than nothing, or you narrow the gap between the top and the bottom salaries by some other method.
My own view is that this could be best done by making Firms who pay excessive wages/bonuses, pay an equal amount in taxes, and reduce the amount they currently pay for those earning between £15kpa and £40pa leaving under £15k as it is currently, thereby putting the onus on them to reduce top earning and thus bridge the gap.
You could of course, (with computers), introduce progressive taxation on earners and not the current sudden leap between 20pc and 40pc, which is obviously blatantly unfair.
These suggestions may be solutions, but it is better than doing nothing, or continuing with the present system that breeds discontent both in the underpaid and in the overpaid.
I hopefully appeal to your, up till now, obvious sense of fair play to rethink your post 76. :-)
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194. enneffess
"And slightly off-topic, does anyone have figures to precisely how many times did Iain Gray demand the resignation of a Scottish Government minister last year? (Multiple requests for an individual count).
"
No, but if you do a search on "Salmond accused" on Google you bet "About 16,800 results" which isn't the same but says a lot about where the quality, or rather the lack of quality and honesty, in our press. All these accusations... of falsehoods or often of having done what he was elected to do.
I know that wasn't what you asked but I just thought I'd point it out.
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History is history and who the hell cares in this day and age what happened 407 years ago. We are living in the present with a future so surley we should be looking forward and not back to ancient history.
Modern history has relevance to what is going on today but not something none of us had a hand in nor can remember and frankly it's about time we all stopped bleating on about it.
I'm not in the habit of swearing in the blogs but having read the arguments back and fore over and over again. Would it not be better for those who just want to have an argument to meet up face to face or exchange phone numbers. The same names over and over again just point scoring with nothing new to say are boring me to death. I enjoy an good debate but not when it's cluttered with junk.
Another thing while I'm on my high horse if individuals make a spelling mistake or two is it going to end the world or affect the rest of us to kingdom come. The answer in NO so let's stick to the subject.
Nothing wrong with a laugh a joke and the odd jibe but please can we have some common sense.
Now I'm waiting on the result of my spelling test!!
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208. GrannieAnne
"No, but if you do a search on "Salmond accused" on Google you bet "About 16,800 results"..."
Plus nearly 30,000 when you search for "snp accused".
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186. Electric Hermit
I think you can get this :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
"Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences between different groups of people, although anyone may be discriminated against on an ethnic or cultural basis, independently of their somatic differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination."
From your post:
the blogosphere is replete with individuals identifying themselves as English whilst blaming Scotland for a number and range of ills that falls not far short of "everything"
You've taken a small subsample and determined that it is sufficiently representative to justify this:
"Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault".
I'm afraid you cannot make that leap with out it fullfilling the first part of the definition above, as you don't discriminate between the "individuals identifying themselves as English whilst blaming Scotland for a number and range of ills" and other English folks.
Further, you complain of 'the English' indiscriminately describing you, Scots, like this, but you treat them in exactly the same way in return, seemingly because they deserve it.
As I said at the start, and it still applies, that's not nice, is it.
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#170. At 3:14pm on 15 May 2010, mariaskid wrote:
157 Auld Bob
One has to ask why either of you just assumes the Trident Programmes belongs to either Westminster or England? In the event of independence the assets, (whether you believe the deterant an asset or not), of the parties must, like any other divorce, be split up or part paid for by the party who gains them if a split cannot be managed. For better or worse, Scotland owns a share of all Union goods & chattels, ((chattel=(legal term), any property other than freehold land, including tangible goods (chattels personal) and leasehold interests (chattels real)).
Absolutely -There will be plenty of bits and pieces in the UK arsenal that we would like to keep - Its just that I have always been anti nuclear, and Scotland has already made clear that Trident is not one of our preferred opeions. I'm sure the naval base at Faslane will prove very useful for non nuclear purposes.
Ah! But you miss the point - if a divorce happens and the joint possessions are being sorted out then, if any one side gives up a claim on one thing, it has to be bartered for something else, or cash value made in its stead. We, Scotland, would be foolish to just give it away because we didn't want it. Not only that but think of the threat of selling it, and the rented use of the base, to say, the French, would have on the other party?
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#191. At 4:26pm on 15 May 2010, Sgian Dubh wrote:
Auld Bob,
Many thanks for the reply.
You are Welcome - and it is in a good cause.
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199. eye_write
"The term "turkeys voting for Christmas" describes accepting or bringing about a situation with negative consequences for the individual, which infers that individual has limited intelectual ability to understand or else is worryingly ignorant."
No the term describes bringing about a situation with negative conswequences for the individual or group.
It says nothing about intelligence or intellect. That interpretation is just you clutching at straws to justify your attacks on other people.
Here let me help you out with a reference to where you got the first part of that definition: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/like_turkeys_voting_for_Christmas
like turkeys voting for Christmas
"1. (simile, colloquial, British, Australian, humorous) Accepting or bringing about a situation with negative consequences for the individual."
There is not and never has been an assumption that it insults the person's intelligence except in your vivid imagination and an excuse (as though you need one) to attack "fellow" nationalists--if you actually are a nationalist.
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195. Auld Bob
"you forgot to add, "in my humble opinion"."
(like you always do)
It's in fact widely accepted. See above.
That it contradicts you is perhaps the reason that you cannot accept it.
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195. Auld Bob
This was my exact post:
----
"Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault".
Yep. That's racist.
---
I added "That's" only. Did you perhaps refer the post Auld Bob claiming it was meant to cry "Racist" as an insult purely to you, when you knew it refered to the phrase quoted?
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190. Auld Bob
I did not refer it.
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25. Electric Hermit
"Never forget! The British Labour Party put this snake-oil pedlar in power."
Something we must remind people of at every opportunity.
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I'm sorry about my grammar - mean't to say any instead of none - see what happens when you loose the bap!!
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185. Auld Bob
"It was also not aimed at a particular person."
No, the "turkeys" phrase was aimed at the Labour voters of Glasgow, if I recall. And it is unduly offensive towards them (unless frustration vindicates all attacks).
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197. Electric Hermit
You are quite entitled to deny the 'lander' terms are unflattering. Perhaps you deny that nationalists have a bad image to shake?
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The Scottish LibDems are between a rock and a hard place. GET THIS: Tavish Scott criticised Salmond for meeting with Cameron and said:
Scottish Lib Dem leader Tavish Scott told the First Minister to concentrate on his own job.
He said: "Rather than trying to run every other government, Alex Salmond should focus on tackling the pressing problems of his own making."
The PM that HIS PARTY is in coalition with!
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211. eye_write
There is, apparently, no end to the logical and linguistic contortions you will perform in order to rationalise branding nationalists as "racist". But I am not about to be lectured to by someone who doesn't even know the difference between "infer" and "imply".
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214. GrannieAnne
There is not and never has been an assumption that it insults the person's intelligence except in your vivid imagination
True. But most of us can see that words also have non-literal meanings. These are called 'connotations'. The rest of the population also 'imagine' these. Do you perhaps assume we live in a world akin to that of the Vulcans from Star Trek?
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211. eye_write
"Further, you complain of 'the English' indiscriminately describing you, Scots, like this..."
I complain? Where? And what is it you imagine I complain about? This is not clear from your garbled post.
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220. eye_write
"No, the "turkeys" phrase was aimed at the Labour voters of Glasgow, if I recall. And it is unduly offensive towards them (unless frustration vindicates all attacks)."
Who the hell are you to take offense on behalf of the "Labour voters of Glasgow"? Somehow, I doubt that they are the delicate blooms you take them for.
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205. Electric Hermit
I'm afraid, in the real world, on this one, it simply does. Nothing to do with me being correct. Perhaps you could could conduct a poll as a comprehension aid? :-)
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Auld Bob said ”The main reason you can see what Scotland gets out of the Union is because there are figures published for Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland. So tell me where are the figures for England?”
Here you go*, it shows that Scotland gets 20% more funds than England overall and more than every single English, so called, ‘region’ individually.
And he said ”Furthermore, you will find no individual figures for what any of the four countries puts into the Union.”
So what? Whilst this so called Union continues, central funds should be distributed to those that need them most, not to those that gave more in the first place.
”The reason is that, like you seem to be doing, is thinking that the United Kingdom and England are the same thing.”
Er, no! That’s exactly what I’m not doing
”However, we have no way of knowing what is spent in England by the United Kingdom...”
Yes we do, see below
”Has that helped show what England gets from the Union?
No
*http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/economic_data_and_tools/finance_spending_statistics/pes_publications/pespub_pesa08.cfm
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197. Electric Hermit
Commonly held by me too. Particulary the reference to xenophopia.
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221. eye_write
"You are quite entitled to deny the 'lander' terms are unflattering."
Backpeddling desperately now, aren't you? Having had nearly enough time for a thought you have downgraded "Englander" to merely "unflattering". But you still don't appear to realise that you are the only one taking offence. And we really can't take that too seriously since taking offence appears to be your hobby.
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157. Auld Bob
"For better or worse, Scotland owns a share of all Union goods & chattels, ((chattel=(legal term), any property other than freehold land, including tangible goods (chattels personal) and leasehold interests (chattels real)). "
That was what I had understood (and looked forward to selling off our bit of the House of Commons to McDonalds!)
However, the 1983 Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of
State Property, Archives and Debts provides an overall structure for the division of property as follows (unless the parties agree otherwise) -
"(a) immovable State property of the predecessor State situated in the territory to which the succession
of States relates shall pass to the successor State;
(b) movable State property of the predecessor State connected with the activity of the predecessor
State in respect of the territory to which the succession of States relates shall pass to the successor State;
(c) movable State property of the predecessor State, other than that mentioned in subparagraph (b),
shall pass to the successor State in an equitable proportion."
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223. Electric Hermit
The answer is quite simple. Avoid emotive terms like 'Englander', and don't make broad statements about what 'the English' are like. You can do it! :-)
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221. eye_write
"Perhaps you deny that nationalists have a bad image to shake?"
I certainly do deny it. Despite your best efforts to portray nationalists as rabid racists and surly xenophobes I have met enough of them to know that your caricature is completely fallacious.
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186. Electric Hermit
"Pompous claptrap! Neither people's are a distinct "race". At worst, this might be taken as hinting at some underlying mild xenophobia coloured by a bit of hyperbole. But even that would be a stretch given that the blogosphere is replete with individuals identifying themselves as English whilst blaming Scotland for a number and range of ills that falls not far short of "everything"."
I will plead guilty to a bit of hyperbole in the comment.
God knows, all you have to do is read this blog or even better Guido Fawkes any time the subject of Scots come up--or go to England and see how many snide remarks you are subjected to.
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225. Electric Hermit
"I complain? Where?"
No this was a new term, a 'generalisation'. It infers, not implies, that the content of your previous posts was sufficient to warrant that that was your feeling. May I inform you, others are also able to judge that :-)
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226. Electric Hermit
"Who the hell are you to take offense on behalf of the "Labour voters of Glasgow"? Somehow, I doubt that they are the delicate blooms you take them for."
They are people, Electrim Hermit, the same as you and me.
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209. ziggyboy
The boy did good! (and I agree with your sentiments)
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177. At 3:54pm on 15 May 2010, Auld Bob wrote:
#149. At 1:18pm on 15 May 2010, JohnnyGee wrote:
#41 alfred_son_of_ethelwulf
I'm not sure Scotland wouldn't vote for independence - now the Tories are in that scenario is more likely.
Good post - with two wee problems. The United Kingdom was formed when the Kingdoms were united by the union of the crowns, hence , "Kingdom", 407 years ago. The joining of the Parliaments of that United Kingdom came about after the Treaty of the Union Of The Parliaments in 1707 - 303 years age. However, The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is a political Union and not a country. You cannot have a country composed of four countries, (unless you wipe out those four countries), and Scotland, England, Wales & Northern Ireland are still here. Perhaps you would like the job of telling the English, "There always is NOT an England & England is NO longer free"?
-----
The UK is most definitely a country!! The argument that a country cannot be made up of smaller countries is an odd view. The UK is a sovereign nation state recognised by international law. If you don't think the UK is a country that's up to you but everyone else does. Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales are also countries - but without being internationally recognised as independent sovereign states. Scotland is not a member of the EU - the UK is. If that helps you to understand the concept.
Many countries in the world i can think of were born out of the union of smaller nation states. Is Germany not a country? is the US not a country? is china not a country, Russia etc etc etc. Borderline mince I'm afraid Bob.
Second point - The Union of the Crowns is not what i was talking about. The French had the right idea what to do with Kings and Queens.
And have you not noticed? I have already started by telling dear Alfred what he should do.
Cheers
JG
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230. Electric Hermit
"unflattering" and "offensive" and "racist" and "bigoted" are all unflattering, Electric Hermit.
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222. GrannieAnne
"Scottish Lib Dem leader Tavish Scott told the First Minister to concentrate on his own job."
Seems Tavish may be after Gray's job as "Idiot-in-Chief".
And while he is busy whining about Salmond's meeting with Shiny Dave Annabel Goldie is taking a totally different and considerably less petulant line. I am not a gambler, but I would be interested to know what odds the bookies are offering on the Tory/LibDem marriage ending in acrimonious divorce sooner rather than later.
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177. Auld Bob
"The United Kingdom was formed when the Kingdoms were united by the union of the crowns, hence , "Kingdom", 407 years ago. "
Pedant alert!
That was the first "Union of the Crowns". That it is always referred to as "the" is a consequence of the Whig school of history, which saw history as the process by which the "British Constitution" of the early 20th century emerged.
In reality, that Union ended when Charles I was beheaded.
The current Union of the Crowns began in 1689 when the Scots Parliament made an offer to the crowned heads of England - William and Mary - to become monarchs of Scotland, on condition that they accepted Scots liberties.
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212. Auld Bob
"Ah! But you miss the point - if a divorce happens and the joint possessions are being sorted out then, if any one side gives up a claim on one thing, it has to be bartered for something else, or cash value made in its stead. We, Scotland, would be foolish to just give it away because we didn't want it. Not only that but think of the threat of selling it, and the rented use of the base, to say, the French, would have on the other party?
"
Very true. Not only that but the British Museum has bits and pieces we might want. I might even hope in the course of a divorce we might manage to return a few STOLEN bits and pieces such as certain bits of marble there that rightfully belong to the GREEKS.
I want Scots to go through the British Archives and see if the Wallace letters are in fact there somewhere as many suspect. An inventory and division of the assets would be an interesting exercise and truthfully I DO see why the British political class (we'd say ruling class if we weren't being terribly politically correct these days and refusing to admit such a thing exists) doesn't want such an outcome. We might find out a thing or two they would very much prefer us not to know.
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Brian:
It appears that Crash Gordon has kept his word, for once, and started his new job, helping in his community.
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224. eye_write
"The rest of the population also 'imagine' these."
There it goes again! Presuming to speak for the whole population.
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201. Auld Bob
Well, with your untold (well, told! ;-) immense knowledge about an English workforce, and computers (past and present, and future?), and similies, you will, of course, be right 8-)
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224. eye_write
"Do you perhaps assume we live in a world akin to that of the Vulcans from Star Trek?"
No, I assume we live in a world where certain people have appointed themselves the thought and language police and make up connotations on the spot which no one else in the world ever heard of--such as that "peope of England" is racial.
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194. enneffess
"One other question that must be answered:
How big is Scotland's share of the PFI debt?"
Tell me the size of the UK PFI debt, and I'll give you an answer!
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227. eye_write
"I'm afraid, in the real world, on this one, it simply does. Nothing to do with me being correct. Perhaps you could could conduct a poll as a comprehension aid? :-)"
Why should I conduct a poll? You are the one making sweeping claims about how the entire population understands various terms. It is for you to back up those claims with something more substantial than your own word.
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Hey! just had an idea. Any one who knows his/her ancient history should know that the "Britain's" were a tribe which resided in the area of Scotland which is now occupied by Lanark-shire and Ayrshire. Why do we not allow all those in those areas who would like to live in an indipendent Scotland to move north of the clyde, out of that area in to real Scotland, and then cut the historic area of Britain loose so it can stay with mother england! Those of us who live our country can get on with running a successful independent nation and the "Britain's" can enjoy begging at the feet of London for handouts and scraps from the masters table!
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233. Electric Hermit
"I certainly do deny it. Despite your best efforts to portray nationalists as rabid racists and surly xenophobes I have met enough of them to know that your caricature is completely fallacious."
Well, yes, they are mostly fab. But plenty, too many, are that bit careless and happy to appear rather like our stereotype suggests. But you don't seem able to differentiate between what we know, and what others in mainstream Scotland perceive. I have been trying to help you, because it is most important we also connect with them. And it is up to us to convince them, not for them to wise up and join us. Do you see?
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209. ziggyboy
"History is history and who the hell cares in this day and age what happened 407 years ago. We are living in the present with a future so surley we should be looking forward and not back to ancient history."
If you don't care that in HISTORY so many have fought and died for this nation, I feel sorry for you. If you don't know or care what the history of your own nation is, again, I feel sorry for you.
No. History is not "just history". It is HOW we got to where we are now. To someone to rubbish all the people who have died for our nation because it is "history" makes me literally ill.
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229. pickmemiss
I somebody says one thing and you choose to hear something else entirely then the problem is surely yours. The rest of us can't go around walking on eggshells lest we offend those who are determined to be offended.
Oh dear! The reference to eggshells has probably upset you in some obscure way. Oh well!
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212 Auld Bob
If Trident is still based in Scotland when we finally become independent - then I imagine it will be in the 'pot' with all other UK assets (is it an asset?) Can you imagine the complexity of the divorce proceedings?! There will, I imagine be much gnashing of teeth and tearing of hair before all the i's are dotted and t's crossed. I just hope that when the time comes we have plenty of smart Scottish lawyers and politicians fighting our corner.
Actually, now I think of it... Trident will be in the pot whether its based in Scotland or not. Now what little British treasure would I like to exchange it for.....
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231. oldnat
"However, the 1983 Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of
State Property, Archives and Debts provides an overall structure for the division of property as follows (unless the parties agree otherwise) -
"(a) immovable State property of the predecessor State situated in the territory to which the succession
of States relates shall pass to the successor State;
(b) movable State property of the predecessor State connected with the activity of the predecessor
State in respect of the territory to which the succession of States relates shall pass to the successor State;
(c) movable State property of the predecessor State, other than that mentioned in subparagraph (b),
shall pass to the successor State in an equitable proportion.""
Let me point out that if we divide then there are TWO successor states, not just one.
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So here is the deal!. Those that can, go all quirky, look up the members list (you will recognise so many!) and PM them. Take it all away from here. Nationalists accusing Nationalists of being trolls, unionists and worse, on a public forum, is sometning I no longer wish to be associated with. You will not hear from me again. Any flippant (or otherwise) retort to this post will be wasted.
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#193. At 4:28pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
OK, so you didn't know. It's commonly held. Because the term 'little Englander' is in common usage, these terms, 'Englander' and Scotlander' are perceived as similar derivatives. 'Little Englander' is used now to describe someone who is full of their own self-importance while at the same time incapable (or unwilling) of seeing past their own national borders to form a greater understanding of the world. (I'm going to assume you know it's original meaning.) And so 'Scotlander' infers the same narrow minded insularity. Neither bestows very much respect - the 'little' part.
I can assure you I'm not making this up just to get at you!
1 - Why on Earth do you assume, for a second, I am so stupid as not to know the modern connotation of the expression, "Little Englander"? Are you so determined to rub salt into a wound? However, not only did I NOT use that expression but I also know where the term originates from. Little Englanders were a an early 19th Century political movement opposed to the ever extending of the British Empire.
So, like your claim that a poster had called the people of Glasgow , "Turkeys", when the poster was only claiming their actions were, as the well known simile states, "Like Turkeys voting for Christmas", you are now accusing me of calling English People, "Little Englanders", when the facts are I merely used an alternative version of, "English". The supposed slights upon the English and Glaswegian therefore were only in your head.
Your following attacks upon Grannieanne, myself and others were among other things ageist. It seems you are somehow of the opinion that all old people must, of necessity, suffer some form of mental diminution. I can assure you they don't. My Gramdmother died at 100 years old when that was unusual and my late father died in Australia only two years ago and both were fully compos mentis until thier demise.
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206. Diabloandco
"So if I feel like shouting ENGLISH under those circumstances you will , pray, forgive me."
Oh, the emotional reaction is well understood. Unfortunately, it only helps the Brits.
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Reluctant Expat must be enjoying watching the nationalists on here tearing each other apart.
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232. eye_write
"Avoid emotive terms like 'Englander'..."
Why? Because the self-appointed language police have put it on ther list? Not going to happen.
Regardless of your increasingly frantic efforts to brand nationalists as racists and xenophobes the fact remains that "Englander" is nothing more than a non-ethnic specific term for the people of England - many of whom do not regard themselves as English.
Your ignorance of the language is not a constraint on others. Nor should it be.
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212. Auld Bob
"the rented use of the base, to say, the French, would have on the other party?"
Now that's a wicked thought! :-) :-)
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221. eye_write
"Perhaps you deny that nationalists have a bad image to shake?"
Well, you have spent days trying to convince anyone who reads this blog that nationalists are nasty racists. Suspect most people can see through the ruse.
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207. Sheneval:
£8 ph was a figure plucked from the Greens. I have no objection to the minimum wage at all. I remember interviewing someone who earned £1 ph as a painter's apprentice in 1995.
I don't see why I worry about the SSP. They do have some sensible policies, but they shoot themselves in the foot with their anti- capitalist stance.
Until the human race grows up and works together properly, there will always be a need for currency.
-----------------------------------
208. GrannieAnne:
I want to see if Gray is going to demand so many resignations, that had the cabinet agreed to them they'd all be gone.
For a cabinet minister to resign - in my view - there are four main reasons:
1. A criticial error
2. Taking responsibility for a major departmental error
3. Not following the policies of the Government, and causing embarrassment by highlighting their own views.
4. Publicly demeaning a member of the public.
Why Gray persists in demanding resignation after resignation is beyond me.
I'm not talking about resignations like Robin Cook's or Michael Hesletine, where they felt the government policy was immoral or wrong. (Heseltine resigned, I believe, over Westland, not just his attempt to dethrone Thatcher).
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234. GrannieAnne
"God knows, all you have to do is read this blog or even better Guido Fawkes any time the subject of Scots come up--or go to England and see how many snide remarks you are subjected to."
I would add only that we are all very aware that this does not apply to, nor even reflect upon, Englanders in general. Being mature individuals we have no need to qualify every single remark we make nor hedge all our utterances with a plethora of caveats and disclaimers.
We're not bloody lawyers!
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244. Electric Hermit
It's just plain common sense, Electric Hermit.
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248 EH
You would be wise to listen too what eye-write is saying.
The SNP's vote is in free-fall and the notion that you can deliver Independence by quoting history, just isn't going to happen.
There is a lesson here for every government, if you cut tax or freeze tax, then the end result is a telling one on jobs, 1,200 jobs lost through the removal of the GARL project and 1,200 jobs to be lost from nursing in the city of Glasgow.
EH! in today's economic world, people will only vote for change when change has the ability to offer sustainable economic terms, so far the SNP have failed too bring any platfrom of a sustainable economic position.
I quite liked Alex Salmond's notion of support from the labour party on the economic front, however I reserve the right to say that the 3 years of constant attack by the SNP on the labour party has not helped that alliance one bit.
Scotland is facing big problems! we need a united front, could i suggest you try your hand at being a bit more diplomatic.
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250. eye_write
"what others in mainstream Scotland perceive. I have been trying to help you, because it is most important we also connect with them. And it is up to us to convince them, not for them to wise up and join us. Do you see?"
It would help if someone like you didn't pretend to be a nationalist and put us all in the worst light possible.
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260. oldnat
"Now that's a wicked thought! :-) :-)"
*snort snort* I LOVE it! Yes, I do think there is a good chance the French would appreciate the lovely nature of such an offer!
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262. enneffess
"I'm not talking about resignations like Robin Cook's or Michael Hesletine, where they felt the government policy was immoral or wrong. (Heseltine resigned, I believe, over Westland, not just his attempt to dethrone Thatcher)."
A conscience resignation such as Cook's is certainly a different situation.
I know I didn't address your question; it just sent my mind in a different tangent. I agree with your reasoning and Gray's constant demands for resignations reflect poorly on him.
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265. kered
"The SNP's vote is in free-fall"
That's why it went up from the last general election, right?
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235. eye_write
"No this was a new term, a 'generalisation'. It infers, not implies, that the content of your previous posts was sufficient to warrant that that was your feeling. May I inform you, others are also able to judge that :-)"
I see that you have still not learned the difference between "infer" and "imply". Nor have you got over your rather comical insistence that you speak for anybody other than yourself.
Learn this! That which you infer is a product of your own prejudices and perceptions. It is what you choose to take out of a text, not what the author of that text has put into it - or implied.
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265. kered
"I quite liked Alex Salmond's notion of support from the labour party on the economic front, however I reserve the right to say that the 3 years of constant attack by the SNP on the labour party has not helped that alliance one bit."
hahaha!
After three years of Gray calling on some SNP minister to resign for some dreadful sin and we are supposed to believe that there has been "3 years of constant attack by the SNP".
Give me a BREAK!
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259. Electric Hermit
"Your ignorance of the language"
Your obtuse ignorance of reality...is truly scary, will not further the independence movement but certainly impede it. But you are too brutishly - and yes, this is how it looks - unpleasantly stubborn to be courteous, let alone reasonable or polite.
Maybe you should take a leaf out if the British book after all?
** waits for volcanic eruption :-( **
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236. eye_write
"They are people, Electrim Hermit, the same as you and me."
I doubt if many of them are presumptuous enough to suppose they speak for you.
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228. TH43
"http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/economic_data_and_tools/finance_spending_statistics/pes_publications/pespub_pesa08.cfm"
Unfortunately, these figures don't produce what you think they do. These are only the data for "attributable" spending. In other words, only the spend which are defined by the UK Government (not the statisticians) as being capable of being separated out by geographical region.
For example, the London Olympics are classified as being "non-attributable". They are assumed to be of equal economic benefit to Londoners and Shetlanders - not a classification that an economist or statistician would make!
Similarly defence spending is not considered in terms of where the spend actually takes place, and the economic activity it generates. For example, Scotland receives £4.3 bn less in defence spending than is for its population.
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261. GrannieAnne
"Well, you have spent days trying to convince anyone who reads this blog that nationalists are nasty racists. Suspect most people can see through the ruse."
Well, you sound like a nasty racist. So good job dispelling the 'ruse'.
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239. eye_write
""unflattering" and "offensive" and "racist" and "bigoted" are all unflattering, Electric Hermit."
So, "unflattering" is "unflattering". What a remarkable insight!
If you want to take offence at mundane terms then that is your problem and yours alone. Help may be available.
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#196. At 4:31pm on 15 May 2010, oldnat wrote:
127. Auld Bob
I should, perhaps, have placed inverted commas around "City of London". I was using the term to describe the financial sector, which actually did provide a major source of tax revenue to the UK Government during the bubble.
Indeed, but it WAS the City of London that I spoke about. As I said they are much more tax gatherers than tax generators. Just think that the Hydrocarbon Fuel tax levied as fuel leaves the Refinery Gate gets paid through a London Head office. Then the Road Fuel Duty and VAT paid at the the pump is also paid through a London Head Office. The profits made on that original Crude oil, tax on the Barrel at the wellhead and the profits by both the companies and shareholders are all paid for via those London dealers and head offices. Every penny of VAT paid to UK wide firms ends up paid into the treasury via a London head office and it soon becomes clear those London TAX gains are not made in The city of London. It is just like a big, big, betting shop that pays betting tax.
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256. Auld Bob
In 'my world' old people are supposed to know better! Actually, they are just the same as the rest of us, except obviously judging by you, more grumpy!
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266. GrannieAnne
"It would help if someone like you didn't pretend to be a nationalist and put us all in the worst light possible."
Your 1970s bigoted nationalism is doing that for us. If I say white will you point out it is black?
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250. eye_write
"Well, yes, they are mostly fab. But plenty, too many, are that bit careless and happy to appear rather like our stereotype suggests. But you don't seem able to differentiate between what we know, and what others in mainstream Scotland perceive. I have been trying to help you, because it is most important we also connect with them. And it is up to us to convince them, not for them to wise up and join us. Do you see?"
What I see is an arrogant, pompous boor who presumes to speak for both the nationalist movement and everybody else. Your sole purpose here has been to devise ever more elaborately contrived ways of representing nationalists as racists and xenophobes. And what is your evidence for this contention? Nothing other than your own inane inferences from entirely trivial and inoffensive comments.
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254. GrannieAnne
"Let me point out that if we divide then there are TWO successor states, not just one."
The term "successor state", in the text I quoted, refers to each of the previous components of a Union. Sorry, but your point is meaningless within the context of the Convention.
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264. eye_write
"It's just plain common sense, Electric Hermit."
So, it is no more than the "the collection of prejudices acquired by the age of 18", as Albert Einstein said.
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263. Electric Hermit
"I would add only that we are all very aware that this does not apply to, nor even reflect upon, Englanders in general. Being mature individuals we have no need to qualify every single remark we make nor hedge all our utterances with a plethora of caveats and disclaimers.
We're not bloody lawyers!"
I admit I'm stubborn enough to refuse to add qualifiers when some self-righteous person who claims to be a nationalist insists that I must.
I certainly hope that a large part of the people of England and Scotland both do see through the lies that we've been told by that "British political class" Oldnat keeps referring to. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that they do. I fear that a lot of Scotlanders actually believe that we're as bad as portrayed as well as Englanders.
Like Oldnat, I realise that the real fault lies with the political class and not with the people who have been lied to. But I won't pretend that the widespread belief doesn't exist.
No, I don't think this makes them (Scotlanders or Englanders) bad people, nor stupid nor ignorant. It makes them deceived and the deception has been very deliberate. (And I realise that the usual suspect will pick out some sentence in this post and claim it proves that I'm racist. *rolls eyes*)
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270. Electric Hermit
"Learn this!"
Charm indeed.
So, what in fact is your perception of how nationalists are generally perceived in Scotland?
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265. kered
"The SNP's vote is in free-fall..."
Arithmetic calls you a liar.
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275. eye_write
"Well, you sound like a nasty racist. So good job dispelling the 'ruse'."
Och, do I now? And what race would that be that I am racist towards?
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273. Electric Hermit
"I doubt if many of them are presumptuous enough to suppose they speak for you."
But that would have nothing to do with it.
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265. kered
"...3 years of constant attack by the SNP on the labour party has not helped that alliance one bit."
Are you a visitor from Bizarro World? Or maybe a close relative of Maggie Curran?
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276. Electric Hermit
"So, "unflattering" is "unflattering"."
Right! So you get it now.
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#194 enneffess
#247 oldnat
Subrosa answered that question last February:
PFI Scotland
The total unitary payments for all existing PFI and PPP contracts from 2010-2011 onwards are approximately £27.7 billion. That figure is inclusive of Scottish Government PFI/PPP funding contributions
A table showing the annual costs is here.
You will note that the table shows repayments up to the financial year 2041 - 2042.
John Wilson MSP requested an estimate for each local authority in 2010-2011 and 2011-12: this table was supplied by John Swinney.
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279. eye_write
"Your 1970s bigoted nationalism is doing that for us. If I say white will you point out it is black?"
So nationalists of the 1970s were bigoted? If that is YOUR idea of white you better believe that I will say black!
Oh, well, why should I be surprised at that coming from you?
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274. oldnat
"For example, the London Olympics are classified as being "non-attributable". They are assumed to be of equal economic benefit to Londoners and Shetlanders - not a classification that an economist or statistician would make! "
Nor any sane and honest individual.
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270. Electric Hermit
"That which you infer is a product of your own prejudices and perceptions."
That I am a nationalist, should have by now alerted you to the fact that it is not.
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279. eye_write
Perhaps that would be the "1970s bigoted naitonalism" that had the most support for nationalism and the SNP that has ever been seen? The nationalism that did better than the current SNP is doing? The nationalism that received 633,180 votes in the 1974 general election?
That BIGOTED nationalism? The BIGOTED nationalism that was led by that "bigot" Willie Wolf? THAT bigoted nationalism?
I would say shame on you but I suspect you're not capable of feeling such an emotion.
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#199. At 4:39pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
185. Auld Bob
Clutching (;-) at straws, Auld Bob.
The term "turkeys voting for Christmas" describes accepting or bringing about a situation with negative consequences for the individual, which infers that individual has limited intelectual ability to understand or else is worryingly ignorant.
Now, what is the reason for your not accepting that this is an insult? ;-)
The reason I do not accept it as an insult is because it is not. Your definition, as usual, is all your own. The actual quote is a very old Irish Proverb and it goes like this, "A turkey never voted for an early Christmas”. Thus the Turkey is being wise, not stupid as you seem to think. There is still, though, the simple fact the poster you objected to was only saying the people were actinf like Turkeys voting for Christmas, Which I, and apparently most others, interpret as they were acting against what the poster thought was in their best interests. In neither case was it saying the people were stupid. That interpretation seems all your own, (well almost), you did have one other supporter.
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291. GrannieAnne
"So nationalists of the 1970s were bigoted?"
Of course they were! Not all but a great many, just like English nationalists of today. (Didn't another poster already explain this to you?) I lived then too. Heard all about 'white settlers' etc. Just what size are your yellow-tinted specs!
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270. Electric Hermit
"I see that you have still not learned the difference between "infer" and "imply". Nor have you got over your rather comical insistence that you speak for anybody other than yourself.
Learn this! That which you infer is a product of your own prejudices and perceptions. It is what you choose to take out of a text, not what the author of that text has put into it - or implied."
I said before I should stop responding to this person. It's time for me to take my own advice and you might want to consider doing the same. I think 99.9% of the people who read this blog can see through this person. If they can't, our responding probably won't help them any.
Of course, the choice is yours but you might want to think about it.
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284. eye_write
"So, what in fact is your perception of how nationalists are generally perceived in Scotland?"
Very different from your malicious portrayal of nationalists as racists an bigots.
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279. eye_write
Perhaps if we were more honest we would do as well as the 1970s nationalists did. Let me tell you something. If there is something wrong with nationalism now, it is too much mushy-mouthed dishonest for fear of being called anti-English or racist and not NEARLY enough honesty.
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293. eye_write
"That I am a nationalist, should have by now alerted you to the fact that it is not."
You are being very silly. That which any individual infers from a text is inevitably a product of their prejudices and perceptions. What do you suppose makes you unique in this regard? Apart from the fact that you don't know the difference between the terms "infer" and "imply".
Get a grown-up to consult a dictionary for you.
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294. GrannieAnne
I thought you were pulling my leg! ("How, very dare you!" - Catherine Tate ;-)
Yes, most folk in the 70s were more bigoted than we are now (you don't hear the term "d-----" for example anymore thank goodness.) What is it about the truth you seem to need to hide from?
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Talking about tax proposals, what does everyone think of the 10k tax cut the lib/dems proposed?
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/05/clegg%E2%80%99s-10k-tax-allowance-is-no-tory-concession-its-a-tory-dream/
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294. GrannieAnne
"bigot" Willie Wolf"
I suspect Willie Wolf might have actually got some of what I am telling you.
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295. Auld Bob
Jeepers! It's not the modern connotation though, Auld Bob!
(I could pick heaps of words and demonstrate, in your way, that they don't mean what they do, but I would worry about seeming, well, a bit like of a turkey!)
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298. Electric Hermit
"Very different from your malicious portrayal of nationalists as racists an bigots."
But that is exactly how you are portrayed by commentators, the press, and politicians, and comedians etc., every day. What are you doing to dispel that view?
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297. GrannieAnne
"I said before I should stop responding to this person."
I had already done so. But somebody pointed out that trolls can be useful up to a point as they provide an opportunity to swat some of the more irritatingly persistent anti-nationalist bugs. And, as eye-write has done repeatedly, they inevitably hang themselves if you only give them the necessary amount of rope.
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281. oldnat
"The term "successor state", in the text I quoted, refers to each of the previous components of a Union. Sorry, but your point is meaningless within the context of the Convention."
"Each" does not mean one. Each of the components would be England/Wales and (one assumes) NI as one component and Scotland as the other.
However, I am certainly no international lawyer. I am willing to believe that you know more about international law than I do and that in this case 'each' does not mean 'each'.
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296. eye_write
"Of course they were! Not all but a great many, just like English nationalists of today. (Didn't another poster already explain this to you?) I lived then too. Heard all about 'white settlers' etc. Just what size are your yellow-tinted specs!"
Amongst the most vicious anti-nationalist smears I've ever run into.
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#History is history and who the hell cares in this day and age what happened 407 years ago. We are living in the present with a future so surley we should be looking forward and not back to ancient history.
Indeed history is history and it begins, for any action, the instant it happens. Thing is, what you are objecting to are legal documentation of the laws of the land. Unless they repeal a law it remains the law. The same goes for acts of Parliament and, "The Treaty Of Union", was followed by each country going home and passing an act of Parliament to unite the two parliaments. The reason Wales & Ireland did not sign was they were already under rule by the English Parliament. If independence is to be gained then there is two options. A new Act Of Parliament or breaking the old Treaty. It's not about history it is about the law.
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#265 Kered: 'There is a lesson here for every government, if you cut tax or freeze tax, then the end result is a telling one on jobs, 1,200 jobs lost through the removal of the GARL project and 1,200 jobs to be lost from nursing in the city of Glasgow.'
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That would be the 1200 garl jobs that never actually existed in the first place. Perhaps Jack McConnell should not have handed back £1 billion to Westminster and instead built the rail link during the 'good times', like most of England's big cities did. But then Labour wouldn't have something to moan about when in opposition.
And the 1200 NHS jobs in Glasgow ? No eveidence for this, just an assumption. As a former Labour voter myself, I am no longer scared by Labour's fear stories. I've seen too many people vote Labour and get Tory to believe that Labour have the answers.
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303. eye_write
""bigot" Willie Wolf"
I suspect Willie Wolf might have actually got some of what I am telling you."
Oh, he "might have got" some of your intellectually superior preaching, might he?
How kind of you to suggest that of such a "1970s nationalist bigot". I'm sure he would have appreciated you explaining what a bigot he and the more than half a million Scotlanders who voted for the party were.
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299. GrannieAnne
"Perhaps if we were more honest we would do as well as the 1970s nationalists did. Let me tell you something. If there is something wrong with nationalism now, it is too much mushy-mouthed dishonest for fear of being called anti-English or racist and not NEARLY enough honesty."
Except it's not though, is it, GrannieAnne.
Did milk taste better then too?
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302. kered
I think a quote from the article you linked to reflects my thinking pretty closely:
"And it looks instead as if the revenue will come mainly from public spending cuts – making the overall effect even more regressive.
If delivered, it could usher in perhaps the biggest increase in income inequality in the UK of any single policy since Nigel Lawson’s 1988 tax-cutting budget."
They may be able to sell it as a "tax cut" which might make people think it is a good thing. As originally proposed, I gave the LibDems kudos for some good ideas. As it is now, it is disastrous. It will only make a bad situation much, much worse.
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300. Electric Hermit
"That which any individual infers from a text is inevitably a product of their prejudices and perceptions."
Quite. Now we are getting somewhere. Everyone, who reads newspapers, and sees TV, and listens to the radio, or talks with friends, does that which you describe, all the time. You can recognise it and accept it and realise that it all has an impact on how nationalism is perceived, or you can ignore it and cry 'Holier than thou!' and deny any and each attack on you by 'infidels'. (Except you can't ignore it, you've just acknowledged to me that it exists.) Which one would seem to be more up to date?
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306. Electric Hermit
And people also decry nationalists as fantasists.
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312. eye_write
"Except it's not though, is it, GrannieAnne.
Did milk taste better then too?"
Not enough what?
The milk may or may not have tasted better. The VOTES were nice though. So maybe we should take a good hard look at what they were doing--such as being honest.
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308. GrannieAnne
"Amongst the most vicious anti-nationalist smears I've ever run into. "
Well, GrannieAnne, how would you counter such 'smears' so as you could be certain no voter would assume there was any truth in them?
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313 GrannieAnne
It seems that Clegg started his political life as a tory.
"The Cambridge University Conservative Association" which Clegg was a member of.
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Grannie Anne and Eye Right - can you please take your arguments offline, use MSN or some other forum. Or possibly swap telephone numbers or meet in a pub somewhere :)
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I read the morning tabloid. The discussion rages, the leader of the Scottish Labour party is expounding the virtues of the union. He dismisses as a joke the vision of independence. Scotland needs the security of the UK he proclaims. I get in the car and drive out of Aberfeldy, Safely removed form the confusion of the central belt. I pass the petrol station selling fuel for £1.20+ a litre (£5.34 per Gallon) I drive along under maintained unimproved roads squeezing past 44 tonne tanker. I make it to the A9 and turn south, I get stuck behind another tanker truck doing 40 (as that is the STUPID speed limit for them)and I cant get passed as it is single carriageway. I drive passed unused land, the preserve of the rich. Land that 300 years ago produced food but is now merely a playground for some toff with a £50K Company bought and fueled Range Rover from Chelsea. I drive in to Perth, to my left is a parade of shops with some sorry looking skinny men in stained acrylic jumpers coming out of the post office clutching the proceeds of this weeks giro making the short trip to the off licence. Reaching the town center I pass the empty offices and shops with their bold "to let" signs. I remember the Labour message and ponder its truth. Then I start to look closer at the country that I love. I remember that the tanker that squeezed passed me was carrying 20,000 liters of whisky and that the other tanker carried as much gas oil and petrol. Then there was the box atric with "5 tonnes of shell fish destined for the restaurants of Paris. I look closer at the land and see that with some investment and modern techniques the apparent baron land can begin to produce food. I see the traffic that stopped me from overtaking is infact hordes of tourists, from Germany, Holland USA and most of all England all bringing cash north. I begin to notice the tens of thousands of acres of farm land with the best beef in the world, the tens of thousands of sheep and the tens of thousands of acres of barley and potatoes. I look at the hills and see millions of trees for making chip board and paper. I drive in to Edinburgh and see the factories the offices and the multicultural mass of people busying about their business and I ask myself
WHY CAN ANYONE SAY WE LIVE IN A POOR COUNTRY THAT IS UNABLE TO LOOK AFTER ITS SELF? Scotland exports over a billion bottles of whisky a year all taxed at source. WE produce over £12 billion a year in oil revenue. surely added to corporation tax income tax on the public and small businesses VAT and the likes we have enough cash to run our own country and out the things that are wrong to rights.
But whats stopping us, well its the "we CAN'T do it" attitude of the Clan Mcwilny of Labour. Why do these people not see the huge wealth of our land. I'll tell you, Its because the labour party, have either never got out of there inner city social clubs or workshops. They may actually believe that Scotland is a poor country as all they see in their day to day lives is the poverty and dirt of urban life. They may not actually see the wealth and diversity of you great nation.
Or is it more likely that the only reason they proclaim such un truths is because they need you to vote Labour to give them any chance of the whole UK party getting to Westminster and filling their pockets.
Look closer, look around, Scotland is a RICH nation, we just get robbed stupid by Westminster and then get told we are scrounging. Its time. Time to push for independence and start using Scotland's wealth to put right 300 years of theft.
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311. GrannieAnne
"How kind of you to suggest that of such a "1970s nationalist bigot". I'm sure he would have appreciated you explaining what a bigot he and the more than half a million Scotlanders who voted for the party were."
You called him the bigot! LOL, that reads like a sketch of the 'Free Scotchland' brigade, Mucklenumptytoun branch, from a TV comedy show. I can just see the bad wigs, tartan and bare walls.
Others seriously do hold this image, and you've done nothing but seriously back it up.
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#184. At 4:12pm on 15 May 2010, NorthernSole wrote:
127. Auld Bob
I am all in favour of free speech, all view points are to be respected. However freedom comes with responsibility. You need to at least be accurate in your rantings. The financial sector does pay corporation tax on earnings from financial services, not just profits on other peoples work.
First you say you believe in freedom of speech then accuse me of ranting. Yet you seem not to understand what I wrote. I'll put it into wee words for you. The London Financial Sector, or for that matter the Edinburgh Financial Sector, earnings are not English, or London, or Edinburgh earnings they are UNITED KINGDOM EARNINGS and England is not the UK. The Treasury is the UK Treasury and the English, Scottish, Welsh and Norther Ireland people are ALL United Kingdom people. Not only that but with a very much larger population there are more people in England taking out as there are paying in. Sheesh! basic maths and there they are, "WE ENGLISH KEEP EVERYBODY BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE OF US. Aye! there are more of you - more to pay in and more to take out. How dare you tell us all you are subsidising us all. Those London offices are dealing in things from all over not in London only.
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312. eye_write
""Perhaps if we were more honest we would do as well as the 1970s nationalists did. Let me tell you something. If there is something wrong with nationalism now, it is too much mushy-mouthed dishonest for fear of being called anti-English or racist and not NEARLY enough honesty."
Except it's not though, is it, GrannieAnne."
Ha! I am slow today so maybe your accusations that I'm to old to know what is going on is right (we grannies being so stupid).
So now you admit it! Your tactics aren't working. The 1970s tactics did.
They weren't bigoted in spite of your accusations, but maybe we need to take a good hard look at what those tactics.
Go back to the core values of liberalism and nationalism! Preach the truth instead of being afraid of someone (like you) calling us a name!
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312. eye_write
"Let me tell you something."
I'm sorry, I shouldn't...
Grannie C Nesbitt?
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317. eye_write
""Amongst the most vicious anti-nationalist smears I've ever run into. "
Well, GrannieAnne, how would you counter such 'smears' so as you could be certain no voter would assume there was any truth in them?"
Aha! So you admit it was a deliberate smear!
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304. eye_write
"It's not the modern connotation though..."
I point out yet again that you have yet to show that this connotation exists anywhere other than your own mind. A mind which, as previously noted, seems entirely given over to finding offence in every utterance and portraying nationalists as bigots.
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316. GrannieAnne
"The milk may or may not have tasted better. The VOTES were nice though. So maybe we should take a good hard look at what they were doing--such as being honest. "
Political landscape, Grannie Anne. You don't tackle today's with yesteryear's . TV and the internet exposes bigots for a start.
Is thst why you're so grouchy though, cos it's 2010? I know folk resist change, but, wow...
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305. eye_write
"What are you doing to dispel that view?"
I think it more pertinent to ask why you are putting so much effort into confirming the perception of nationalists as racists and bigots while no commentator worthy of anyone's attention would be so shallow in their analysis.
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325. GrannieAnne
"Aha! So you admit it was a deliberate smear!"
Em. No. The point, again, was that there is a large body of voters out there who do believe nationalists are bigoted etc. etc., or at least don't assume otherwise. So, again, how would you counter these attitudes so as you could be certain no voter would assume there was any truth in them?
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327. eye_write
"Political landscape, Grannie Anne. You don't tackle today's with yesteryear's . TV and the internet exposes bigots for a start."
Which is why they never reprise auld shows or make movies out of 1970s hits. Wait... *cough*
There are lessons to be learned from the past and core values that can be lost in the rush to be politically correct and never give offense or be considered modern. The fact is that those "1970s bigoted nationalists" that you are so eager to smear were doing a lot right.
Including winning elections.
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326. Electric Hermit
"I point out yet again that you have yet to show that this connotation exists anywhere other than your own mind."
I fear even if the entire nation yelled it at you for as long as it took to have it tattooed many times over your skin, you would still deny it exists - because I said it.
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327. eye_write
"TV and the internet exposes bigots for a start."
Prove your allegation that the SNP of the 1970s was a party of bigots and that they campaigned on a policy of hatred and racism.
Prove it.
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314. eye_write
"Quite. Now we are getting somewhere. Everyone, who reads newspapers, and sees TV, and listens to the radio, or talks with friends, does that which you describe, all the time. "
I see I must remind you that it was you who misused the term "infer" and thus demonstrated that you were ignorant of its meaning and the way in which it differs from the terms you should have used, "imply". I am happy to have done some small thing to improve your education.
There is, I fear, nothing that I can do to rectify your vaunting arrogance and presumption. I doubt that you will ever be capable of realising or acknowledging that your inferences are yours alone and cannot be generalised to any larger population. Which is just as well. Because if everybody suffered from your parlous affliction communication would rapidly become impossible.
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327. eye_write
"but, wow..."
Too true. Electric Hermit said that given enough rope you would show yourself for exactly what you are. He was so right.
Your smears against the SNP as a racist, bigoted organisation show the truth.
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316. GrannieAnne
"Not enough what?"
I said "not though". Remove bright yellow specs?
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315. eye_write
"And people also decry nationalists as fantasists."
Don't allow the fact that I respond to your nonsense deceive you into believing that I actually care what ignorant people say.
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317. eye_write
"...how would you counter such 'smears' so as you could be certain no voter would assume there was any truth in them?"
More to the point, why do you insist on perpetuating these smears?
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326. Electric Hermit and many other posts.
Have a look in the mirror! as that is how you are behaving letting fly at all and sundry to satisfy your own self importance, grow up.
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318. kered
"It seems that Clegg started his political life as a tory. "
Looks like he'll end it that way too.
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309. Auld Bob
"The reason Wales & Ireland did not sign was they were already under rule by the English Parliament."
Second historical pedant alert!
Wales had been incorporated into England (as an aside, successor states automatically adopt all treaties entered into by the predecessor state. Hence if Wales became independent of England, it would also need to annul the Treaty of Union with Scotland!)
Ireland, of course, was not part of England (though ruled by the Crown of the United Kingdom). It didn't become part of the Union until the their (theoretically) independent Parliament passed their Act of Union in 1801.
End of pedant alert
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323. GrannieAnne
"Ha! I am slow today so maybe your accusations that I'm to old to know what is going on is right (we grannies being so stupid)."
What???
"So now you admit it! Your tactics aren't working. The 1970s tactics did.
They weren't bigoted in spite of your accusations, but maybe we need to take a good hard look at what those tactics.
Go back to the core values of liberalism and nationalism! Preach the truth instead of being afraid of someone (like you) calling us a name!"
So you've dreamed I've dreamed your dream??? Are you wearing flares right now?
Seriously, a big mouthed aggrieved 70s nats revival aint gonna get us anything but severely ridiculed, but you don't seem to care. Thanks for rolling out your vision. At least you've been exposed. Start up a new party, see how many members you get.
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327. eye_write
"Is thst why you're so grouchy though, cos it's 2010? I know folk resist change, but, wow..."
Shall I start mentioning ageism every time you sneer at my or Auld Bob's age? And you accuse others of being a bigot.
Funny thing how I am reminded of a certain passage from somewhere that goes something like: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? How canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite..."
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265. kered
So both Labour and SNP should be "freefall", both had increases in popular vote and both had the same number of MPs 2005-2010.
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335. eye_write
"Remove bright yellow specs?"
why should I respond to your bigotry against the elderly?
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328. Electric Hermit
"I think it more pertinent to ask why you are putting so much effort into confirming the perception of nationalists as racists and bigots while no commentator worthy of anyone's attention would be so shallow in their analysis."
That's right, blame the commentators. If you've done nothing wrong, or even don't have the image I'm telling you you do have, why haven't you achieved more, and left it all for my generation to fix?
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337. Electric Hermit
"More to the point, why do you insist on perpetuating these smears?"
Why do you deny they exists? Have you got a special mirror?
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Quite a good read of William Wolfe!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/politics-obituaries/7494353/William-Wolfe.html
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303. eye_write
"294. GrannieAnne
"bigot" Willie Wolf"
I suspect Willie Wolf might have actually got some of what I am telling you."
Oh, for heaven's sake! You are both right - and you are both wrong!
Billy Wolfe regularly talked about "the English" - as in "the English are in the dominating and controlling position over Scotland" (Scotland Lives p163). That was almost 40 years ago!. That's how language was couched then (and I never noticed a problem with it then - in the same way that I didn't notice how women and ethnic minorities were spoken about either. Stereotyping was a normal way of thinking then).
Perception of language changes over time, however, and Alex Salmond uses the language of the 21st century - we should follow Alex's example.
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320. patchbruce
"WHY CAN ANYONE SAY WE LIVE IN A POOR COUNTRY THAT IS UNABLE TO LOOK AFTER ITS SELF? Scotland exports over a billion bottles of whisky a year all taxed at source. WE produce over £12 billion a year in oil revenue. surely added to corporation tax income tax on the public and small businesses VAT and the likes we have enough cash to run our own country and out the things that are wrong to rights.
But whats stopping us, well its the "we CAN'T do it" attitude of the Clan Mcwilny of Labour. Why do these people not see the huge wealth of our land. I'll tell you, Its because the labour party, have either never got out of there inner city social clubs or workshops. They may actually believe that Scotland is a poor country as all they see in their day to day lives is the poverty and dirt of urban life. They may not actually see the wealth and diversity of you great nation.
Or is it more likely that the only reason they proclaim such un truths is because they need you to vote Labour to give them any chance of the whole UK party getting to Westminster and filling their pockets.
Look closer, look around, Scotland is a RICH nation, we just get robbed stupid by Westminster and then get told we are scrounging. Its time. Time to push for independence and start using Scotland's wealth to put right 300 years of theft.
"
Very, very well put and what we NEED to be talking about here instead of arguing with someone who only wants to post smears against nationalism and nationalists.
The REAL concern of nationalism the the good of Scotland. That is what we MUST fight for.
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329. eye_write
"So, again, how would you counter these attitudes..."
I have to accept that democratic freedom of expression means that people like you are entitled to spread the smears which give rise to the attitudes you refer to. All anyone else can do is point out that this is what you are doing. It is up to others to make up their own minds about whether to give any credence to your portrayal of nationalists as racists and bigots.
I've made up mine.
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336. Electric Hermit
"Don't allow the fact that I respond to your nonsense deceive you into believing that I actually care what ignorant people say."
Well, you should though. Have you achieved your aims without "the ignorant people's" votes yet?
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#265. At 5:53pm on 15 May 2010, kered wrote:
1 - The SNP's vote is in free-fall and the notion that you can deliver Independence by quoting history, just isn't going to happen.
Don't talk utter rubbish. The ONLY way to deliver independence is to repeal, "The Treaty of Union", that predates the Acts of Union of both Scotland and England. BTW: The SNP vote went up in the GE.
2 - There is a lesson here for every government, if you cut tax or freeze tax, then the end result is a telling one on jobs, 1,200 jobs lost through the removal of the GARL project and 1,200 jobs to be lost from nursing in the city of Glasgow.
Utter Rubbish! The SNP administration increased its grant to the Greater Glasgow & Clyde Health Board. The cuts were imposed by that Health Board and that health board is a Labour Council run Board. As to the GARL projest- all that cash to change a 10 minute bus run into a train run and more so a train/bus journey that the private company that is the Airport should provide for the passengers of their airline operators. Not only that Glasgow gets a larger per-capita share of funding than any other part of Scotland.
3 - I quite liked Alex Salmond's notion of support from the labour party on the economic front, however I reserve the right to say that the 3 years of constant attack by the SNP on the labour party has not helped that alliance one bit.
Rubbish! The SNP are the government and Labour are the opposition. Thus it is the SNP making the policy and Labour attacking the SNP. As Labour are not making policy how can their policy be attacked?
4 - Scotland is facing big problems! we need a united front, could i suggest you try your hand at being a bit more diplomatic.
Indeed Scotland is facing hard times - who was it in power that created those hard times? I'll give you a clue It was not the SNP, Lib Dema or Tories. On diplomacy - will it be all right if the SNP follow the Iain Gray school of diplomatic behaviour?
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334. GrannieAnne
I think The Professionals is coming on....
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331. eye_write
"I fear even if the entire nation yelled it at you for as long as it took to have it tattooed many times over your skin, you would still deny it exists - because I said it."
That's right. You said it. Only you. And you have amply demonstrated your anti-nationalist prejudices.
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332. GrannieAnne
"Prove your allegation that the SNP of the 1970s was a party of bigots and that they campaigned on a policy of hatred and racism."
You said that. I didn't say that.
?
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333. Electric Hermit
That's just bleatering. Can you answer the question?
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341. eye_write
"Seriously, a big mouthed aggrieved 70s nats revival aint gonna get us anything but severely ridiculed, but you don't seem to care. Thanks for rolling out your vision. At least you've been exposed. Start up a new party, see how many members you get."
I think we are both exposed here. Me as someone who supports nationalism whether I am called names or not and looks to our core values. You as a bigot prejudiced against the elderly who smears nationalists as bigots when you yourself are one.
Pretty clearly exposed. Aye, Indeed.
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342. GrannieAnne
OK...but, I'm in comparison young! You seem to have invented that I hate old people now. That would make sense seeing as I have parents.
You've taken to spouting religious texts...OK. I'm worrying a bit about you now.
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344. GrannieAnne
"335. eye_write
"Remove bright yellow specs?"
why should I respond to your bigotry against the elderly?"
Do all old people wear bright yellow specs?? (Must be the 70s!)
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313. GrannieAnne
"As originally proposed, I gave the LibDems kudos for some good ideas. As it is now, it is disastrous."
Wholly agree. It's hardly rocket science that, with a huge deficit needing to be reduced, the more taxes are reduced, the greater the level of cuts need to be. Even the Taxpayer's Alliance considered VAT increases regressive and a bad idea, but the ConDems have locked themselves into a position where there is little option but that.
Consequently the poorest are going to be hit by tax rises - while the public services that they (more than anyone else) need will be cut deeply.
While the Orange Book LDs seem happy with that, I doubt that many of their voters realised that would be the consequence of their vote.
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350. Electric Hermit
"I've made up mine."
As the rest of the country will make up theirs. So, again, what will you do if there are many who believe the stereotypes in the papers? Just ignore them?
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322. Auld Bob
Insulting people is not a way of winning any debate. Your style is baseless rhetoric that is offensive, I note other posters picked up your Englander jibe, I hope you checked the link offered to wickipedia because you fit the title of "little scotlander" perfectly.
You blame everything on other people, our current predicament is always someone else's fault. You drive the cause of nationalism backwards, not forwards.
If a consensus for independence is to be built it requires a vision that unites the nation not a vision based on your narrow spiteful brand of politics. We need a vision based on what we can achieve on our own, something positive.
Such a vision is completely missing as can be seen from the election results. Scots had a choice, a strong SNP vote would have put us in the position of demanding and getting a referendum. However the SNP campaign was dreadful and missed an opportunity. The campaign turned voters back towards Labour.
There are to many little Scotlanders like you who tarnish the image of nationalism.
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347. kered
"Quite a good read of William Wolfe!"
Typical for The Telegraph, it has a number of errors in it. And the venom in a couple of the comments shows exactly what I've expressed in my concern about our current state of affairs.
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@eye_write
If we were to accept you as a reasonable individual then, when the blog ticked over we might have have thought you would start from this blog on a clean slate.
We would have thought that you would have considered that you had made any point you wish to make on previous blogs.
But here you are, piling into others again just as before.
The accusation that you are a troll just wishing to blacken the reputation of one group here is being strengthened by your behaviour.
Can I suggest considering that, if you are genuine and you have disagreements, then agree to disagree and move on with what you do disagree about.
Your first posts about generalisations had a point, nothing you posted since seems to have
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:
So this is what independence would look like? Three cyber thugs attempting to shout down the voice of reason and rationality. I have described two of them as a pantomime Trojan Horse, attempting to poison the SNP from within - perhaps attempting to push the party towards bigotry and hate.
One of that pair has returned to the blog under another name, having been expelled for ludicrous excess at the behest of other Nationalists.
The third of the trio - in may respects the worst by dint of sheer ignorance - could be described as the sticky tail of the panto horse.
I used to enjoy crossing swords with - and occasionally falling out with - a good number of the Nationalists who have colonised (or hijacked) this blog. I'm sure they are embarrassed by what is going on, because they were capable of engaging with forceful opinions contrary to their own beliefs without displaying hatred and ignorance. I would challenge them to speak out.
If the present outrage goes unchecked, Brian might as well pull the plug on the blog.
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#220. At 5:07pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
185. Auld Bob
"It was also not aimed at a particular person."
No, the "turkeys" phrase was aimed at the Labour voters of Glasgow, if I recall. And it is unduly offensive towards them (unless frustration vindicates
In the first place the people of Glasgow are not a person.
In the second the sourse you quoted for the turkeys at Christmas was wrongp The actual sourse is a very old Irish Proverb and goes, "Turkey's do not vote for an Early Christmas". Not in any way saying turkeys are stupid - quite the reverse - in fact.
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357. GrannieAnne
But you miss! that the people 'calling you names'...are the voters!!!
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362. NorthernSole
"Your style is baseless rhetoric that is offensive, I note other posters picked up your Englander jibe..."
Take lest you end up looking as silly as eye_write. The term "Englander" is not a jibe. It is simply a term for the people and/or electorate in England who may or may not be, or regard themselves, as English. In short, it is a way of referring to the people of England shorn of any ethnic connotations.
It is for you to explain why you confuse this perfectly ordinary word with the phrase, "Little Englander" - which is an entirely different thing.
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355. eye_write
That is EXACTLY what you said: that 1970s nationalists were bigots.
Denying it doesn't get you out of the hole you dug for yourself in post #279 and your reference to "1970s bigoted nationalism". The smear is right there for all of us to read. Not only did you say it, you expanded on it with your "big mouthed aggrieved 70s nats..."
So the 1970s nationalists were "big mouthed aggrieved bigoted nationalists". I suspect that includes quite a number of frequent posters on this blog who you have managed to smear.
Funny, that they got so many votes.
I am more than willing to go back and take a look at their tactics and see what we can use. (Admitting that I'm not old enough to remember them that denies your ageist smears and I prefer to watch you hang yourself with your bigotry against the elderly)
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#364 RandomScot: Why should eye_write be the one to "agree to disagree" and move on? If you're a reasonable Nationalist, surely you think her points need to be made again and again?
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364. RandomScot
If you read my first three posts, you will see that's exactly what I did do - start from a clean slate. I agree it will be pretty boring for you reading all the replies and so on. I apologise. Skip past them.
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#265 - " however I reserve the right to say that the 3 years of constant attack by the SNP on the labour party has not helped that alliance one bit."
Talk about revisionist history. I take it you're overlooking the fact that, despite the constant (and sometimes completely ludicrous) attacks by labour on the SNP, the constant calls for minister resignations, etc. Salmond is still willing to work with Labour for the good of the country. I guess it's just about maturity, something Labour seriously lack these days.
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365. brigadierjohn
"If the present outrage goes unchecked, Brian might as well pull the plug on the blog."
You're outraged. I must be doing something right.
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363 GrannieAnne
Yes! on reflection probably a poor choice of link (Telegraph)
however, I pretty well! like how they draw their attention too Billy Wolfe's progressive left ideas.
Apart from Alex Neil, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, it's pretty difficult to pick out from the SNP backbenches, anyone else with the progressive left affiliation
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362. NorthernSole
Well, needless to say, I think that's the whole point, and a very important one. But you probably knew that!
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367. eye_write
"But you miss! that the people 'calling you names'...are the voters!!!"
The voters have made ageist comments about the stupidity of the elderly as you have time and again about Auld Bob and myself? Not that I've ever seen.
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368. Electric Hermit
Keep shooting the messenger, it is easier than accepting the truth.
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365. brigadierjohn
"If the present outrage goes unchecked, Brian might as well pull the plug on the blog."
Its already been renamed as 'Electic Hermit' the mole working from within.
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373. GrannieAnne
"365. brigadierjohn
"If the present outrage goes unchecked, Brian might as well pull the plug on the blog."
You're outraged. I must be doing something right."
Your grandchildren must very 'proud' of you doing the unionists dirty work.
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374. kered
"I pretty well! like how they draw their attention too Billy Wolfe's progressive left ideas."
The article wasn't terrible (for The Telegraph lol) but did have some inaccuracies.
However, you're right that he was further left and I would like to see a movement back toward our core values, perhaps not as far left as he was because I don't think it would work in the current political climate, but a movement in that direction.
And NOT apologising for being FOR Scotland even if that makes some idiots say that we're anti-English.
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365. brigadierjohn
I doesn't bode well. I myself will take the responsibility and criticism of course for 'clogging up the blog'. I hope, and I know actually, that the old bitter, anti-intelligent 'tell it like it is' cyber-thug brand of nationalism, though vocal, is very small, probably three! Sort of an endangered species. Just as well, for I think they are just never going to get it. Hey, ho.
Still, I gave them plenty opportunity.
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Whoo hoo! Who needs politics when there are linguistic arguments to be had.
Despite some claims here, "Englander" is not a Lallans word. If you don't believe me check the Dictionary of the Scots Language at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/ This is the most comprehensive dictionary of Lowland Scots in existence. If you search for the word Englander, you get no results - because Englander isn't a Scots word.
Englander is a 19th century loanword into English from German. In its earliest usages it had a diminutive or affectionate overtone. Diminutive words very easily switch from an affectionate emotional overtone to a negative one. Nowadays Englander is perceived by English people - at least all those English people I've asked - to have a negative emotional force.
Englander was of very restricted usage until the late 19th century when the phrase Little Englander came into popular currency. Little Englander was a political term of abuse used by the faction in favour of expanding the British Empire into new territories. They used it to refer to those who did not want to embark on new conquests - specifically those who opposed the wars against the Boers in South Africa. However the phrase came to mean "a narrow and provincial English/British nationalist", with a distinctly negative emotional import. This change of meaning occurred in the aftermath of WW1. As a German word, (Little) Englander came to imply an English/British nationalist with a distinctly German Imperialist outlook - narrow and inward looking. As such it acquired very negative emotional overtones.
The word Englander by itself is usually interpreted nowadays as a shortened form of this phrase, since the phrase is by far and away the most common context where the word occurs. In fact it's virtually the only context.
Incidentally, "Scotlander" is not a direct equivalent. It is a nonce word, a word created ad hoc on a particular occasion but not actually in active or widespread use.
So in the interests of scientific enquiry I asked a number of English people about the word. (Because I'm one of those weirdo linguistic pedants.) OK, so it was only 8 people, not a representative sample, but if you want scientific accuracy you fund the research. As it was it cost me four beers, two glasses of wine, a diet coke and a packet of pork scratchings. Anyway, all of them said that it wasn't a positive word. None thought it emotionally neutral, all agreed it was emotionally negative and vaguely insulting. Four out of the eight volunteered the information that the word was a shortened form of the negative term Little Englander. Another two said that they associated its usage with boys comics set in WW2, it was what the Nazis always called the British. One said he'd think of anyone using the word as a bit of a comic book nazi.
However none of the people I asked were especially upset or angered by the word. They just thought that it was rather childish and immature.
We can determine what we intend by a word, but we can never determine the associations and emotional response it provokes in other people. Their subjective and emotional experience of a word is every bit as valid as our subjective and emotional experience of it. After all, it's their language too. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Insults are in the ear of the listener.
So if you don't mind creating the mental association of Scottish nationalism with childrens' comic book Nazis, keep using the word Englander.
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BJ
eye-write gets to do that because he/she/it has been the active participant.
If he/she/it hadn't rejoined the attack then responses would not have been required
As to volume of posts, I think eye-write has put a fair amount of posts out there through the course of this episode
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#373 GrannieAnnie: At least you recognised yourself and owned up. That's one thing you did right.
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368. Electric Hermit
"
Take lest you end up looking as silly as eye_write. The term "Englander" is not a jibe. "
Except it is actually a jibe.
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360. oldnat
"While the Orange Book LDs seem happy with that, I doubt that many of their voters realised that would be the consequence of their vote."
Orange Book LibDems are why I could no longer consider voting for that party. At one time, they were my second choice in parties if for some reason a good SNP candidate was not on the ballot. No more.
It is appalling what has happened to the LibDems.
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379. clammylegg
"Your grandchildren must very 'proud' of you"
As a matter of fact my entire nationalist family takes some pride in me. As for who does the Unionist dirty work, you might look at the one who has gone on and on on this blog about how bigoted nationalists are.
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#374. At 8:37pm on 15 May 2010, kered wrote:
363 GrannieAnne
"Apart from Alex Neil, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, it's pretty difficult to pick out from the SNP backbenches, anyone else with the progressive left affiliation "
or indeed from the front or backbenches of 'Scottish' Labour.
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362. NorthernSole
"You blame everything on other people, our current predicament is always someone else's fault. "
Nonsense. He said no such thing.
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369. GrannieAnne
Many people in the 70s, as has been explained to you by another post, were bigots. Make the leap then.
But, instad of searching for your next 'glee high' by finding tiny fault with something I said, why not agree we should, if we look back, of course encorporate the good things from past campainging, and not the bad. That infers (woa there Electric Hermit!) it was not all good, correct?
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373. GrannieAnne
"365. brigadierjohn
"If the present outrage goes unchecked, Brian might as well pull the plug on the blog."
You're outraged. I must be doing something right."
Oh, please.
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384. brigadierjohn
Tahnk you. I take credit where credit is due. I never mind offending someone whose main task is trying to offend.
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386. GrannieAnne
"It is appalling what has happened to the LibDems."
Were they better in the 70s? I'm sorry, I couldn't resist it!
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THIS BLOG
I like to browse this blog because it is interesting and informative (old nat,frankly francophone ) however the last two days have been O.T.T. I'm not sure if it is a ploy to get everyone to avoid this blog but it certainly stifles any discussion. Please stop with the sniping the three of you or CUT CUT CUT it out
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#381 eye_write: Yup! It's not for me to tell respectable Nationalists how to react to people who shame them. I've said my tuppenceworth, and now I will leave this thread which has outlived its usefulness. Good night.
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#211. At 4:58pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
186. Electric Hermit
I think you can get this :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
"Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences between different groups of people, although anyone may be discriminated against on an ethnic or cultural basis, independently of their somatic differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination."
For crying out loud- Where did anyone say, "ALL THE ENGLISH". I had assumed, rightly it seems - that the English who came to this blog would by mainly of that opinion - seems I was indeed correct.
Is there no lie you will spare to prove yourself right when you are so obviously wrong?
The quote about Turkeys is, "Turkeys never vote for an early Christmas", so read the link."Turkey Quote information"
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386. GrannieAnne
"It is appalling what has happened to the LibDems."
And I haste to say that by that I mean the leaders of the party. As you say, the voters had NO way of knowing the consequences of their vote and were told, in the course of the election, that the consequences would be OPPOSITE of what they were.
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390. eye_write
"Many people in the 70s, as has been explained to you by another post, were bigots. Make the leap then.
But, instad of searching for your next 'glee high' by finding tiny fault with something I said, why not agree we should, if we look back, of course encorporate the good things from past campainging, and not the bad. That infers (woa there Electric Hermit!) it was not all good, correct?"
So there were bigots in the 1970s. As your posts about the elderly have so amply proved, there are bigots now.
Of course, we only want to copy what was good but your smearing of all 1970s nationalists as bigots pretty much says your opinion and frankly leaves nothing to discuss with you further.
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382. InfrequentAllele2
"We can determine what we intend by a word, but we can never determine the associations and emotional response it provokes in other people. Their subjective and emotional experience of a word is every bit as valid as our subjective and emotional experience of it. After all, it's their language too. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Insults are in the ear of the listener."
I admit I was rather fearful of what you might come out and say, as I knew it was likely you would comment on the use of language, as I had attempted to explain it, and I knew you could have maybe blown me out of the water. I suppose I took a calculated risk, then.
So thank goodness for that post! Regardless, I knew it would be quite something.
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389. GrannieAnne
"Nonsense. He said no such thing."
That was well constructed, and very well crafted. Thank goodness it was the 'truth' then?
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387. GrannieAnne
"As a matter of fact my entire nationalist family takes some pride in me. As for who does the Unionist dirty work, you might look at the one who has gone on and on on this blog about how bigoted nationalists are. "
Interesting. Are the unionists too low life for you to consider rational discussion with? (Or, did you try and it came across like on here, and so....)
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393. eye_write
""It is appalling what has happened to the LibDems."
Were they better in the 70s? I'm sorry, I couldn't resist it!"
You couldn't resist trying to make a stupid jibe that falls on its face? Well, that's all right. It is a point worth making:
At least, they were actually LIBERALS. Have you even read the Orange Book?
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392. GrannieAnne
"Tahnk you. I take credit where credit is due. I never mind offending someone whose main task is trying to offend."
You must have a very busy life.
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396. Auld Bob
"Where did anyone say, "ALL THE ENGLISH"."
GrannieAnne said, ""Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault". She didn't say. "according to some of the English". Saying "the English" brands them all with her comment.
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398. GrannieAnne
Well, as long as you have something to disagree with, GrannieAnne.
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402. GrannieAnne
"Have you even read the Orange Book?"
Would it matter to you if I have?
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402. GrannieAnne
PS I was trying to lighten the mood - where's your sense of humour!
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387. GrannieAnne
A simple question "Why hasn't RE posted on here lately" My answer would be because he hasn't needed too.
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Brigadier John:
#395.
"Yup! It's not for me to tell respectable Nationalists how to react to people who shame them. I've said my tuppenceworth, and now I will leave this thread which has outlived its usefulness. Good night."
But reasonable individuals would recognise that we simply can not collectively round up all nationalists and brand them racists. I don't agree with all nationalists points of views but I certainly wouldn't stop those from speaking out, that goes against the right to free speech.
However, since this is a matter of certain words which may be considered offensive, I say it's a generational matter. The PC brigade certainly has made us worried about what we say and this isn't the case for the elderly in our society.
I personally remain laid back by terms many would be considered offensive. I couldn't care less because I know that those individuals are my friends and we keep an eye out for one another. That's a stronger bond then family ties or even nation ties and we all know how I feel about loving your country.
The ole expression of sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me springs to mind. So long as there is no hidden dangerous agenda we must rise up and stop the criminalisation of language.
However let us stop the constant bickering. It's going nowhere so we should leave things as they are and allow the outside public to judge the individuals here today, we have bigger issues to discuss.
Don't forget the world has not stopped just for you to argue over the use of a word.
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#296. At 6:30pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
291. GrannieAnne
"So nationalists of the 1970s were bigoted?"
Of course they were! Not all but a great many, just like English nationalists of today. (Didn't another poster already explain this to you?) I lived then too. Heard all about 'white settlers' etc. Just what size are your yellow-tinted specs!
Is ther no lie you will not sink to? I actually knew and mixed with these people you are accusing of being racist. Including Billy Wolfe and many in office today. There was always a policy of excluding any form of anti-English, racist and violent action. For Goodness sake Siol nan Gaidheal was founded in reaction to the frustrations of the great devolution debate. The founder, Tom Moore, was disappointed at what he claimed as, "the Scottish Spirit sadly lacking and the SNP mealy-mouthed". Just where do you think you are coming from?
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348. oldnat
"303. eye_write
"294. GrannieAnne
"bigot" Willie Wolf"
I suspect Willie Wolf might have actually got some of what I am telling you."
Oh, for heaven's sake! You are both right - and you are both wrong!
Billy Wolfe regularly talked about "the English" - as in "the English are in the dominating and controlling position over Scotland" (Scotland Lives p163). That was almost 40 years ago!. That's how language was couched then (and I never noticed a problem with it then - in the same way that I didn't notice how women and ethnic minorities were spoken about either. Stereotyping was a normal way of thinking then).
Perception of language changes over time, however, and Alex Salmond uses the language of the 21st century - we should follow Alex's example."
I agree with you at least in part.
Language has changed and we have to reflect that. Some issues have died away. New issues have emerged. Our campaigns now will of course not be exactly reflections of past campaigns even rather successful ones such as the 1974 UK GE.
However, I have also come to be convinced over the past months that we have lost the way from our core values. The SNP is supposed to be a liberal party but where is our liberalism? We are supposed to be a nationalist party but are we talking about our nationalism?
No, we haven't TOTALLY lost those values but far too much they have been shoved onto the back burner.
As for my reference to the English--I was talking about people who IDENTIFY themselves as English and talk a lot of hatred toward the Scots. You and I both know that is very easy to find. On that article on The Telegraph about Billy Wolfe's death there was a hateful comment saying how happy the poster was about his death and wishing for the death of Alex Salmond.
These are the people who I have a real problem with. Hopefully, a small minority of the English but sometimes it doesn't seem that way. I admit I sometimes get angry after reading things like that.
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#365 - "If the present outrage goes unchecked, Brian might as well pull the plug on the blog."
For all we rarely see eye to eye, brig, I suspect you may well be right. BwB is already under tighter moderation than other BBC blogs, at least partly due to some excesses in how opinions are expressed here (from unionists as well as nationalists).
This argument between eye write and the rest....what exactly are they arguing about? Neither side will ever agree and we've had over 200 posts cementing that in stone. We're now into the realms of simply choking this blog of any semanence it had left of constructive debate.
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410. Auld Bob
"Siol nan Gaidheal was founded in reaction to the frustrations of the great devolution debate. The founder, Tom Moore, was disappointed at what he claimed as, "the Scottish Spirit sadly lacking and the SNP mealy-mouthed". Just where do you think you are coming from? "
From the Siol nan Gaidheal website: "Siol nan Gaidheal seeks to liberate the Scottish people from the worst excesses of English/British Cultural Imperialism and believes that English people resident in Scotland will integrate into and make a full contribution to the community of Scotland. SnG will dedicate itself to fulfilling our commitments to our country and people, we will thus not stand idly by and watch our country being used, abused or betrayed by enemies both internal and external."
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410. Auld Bob
"Just where do you think you are coming from? "
From an ordinary area of Scotland mixing with ordinary folk. Many were bigots, although they didn't really see it then, in the 70s and much later. And this is in the strongest SNP seat in the country. It's just the nature of folk, of course. But you, we, me, they, will all be judged, by others, by voters. You've got to see yourself as others see you (you can do the quote). For they are the ones whom we want to vote with us. It's as simple as that.
I can see how people are perceived. I can see through others. I can assess the overview. And piece it together. I've always been able to do it. I'm trying to help you see it. Give me some credit, you might not regret it.
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411. GrannieAnne
GrannieAnne, you will only get what you want, independence, via increments. Going back to emboldening ourselves with declarations about big wants is only going to cheese folk off. I doubt you will believe me, but there are other posters who I'd expect would tell you the same. If you afford them the credibility you don't think I deserve, then please listen to them.
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320. At 7:33pm on 15 May 2010, patchbruce wrote
I see the traffic that stopped me from overtaking is infact hordes of tourists, from Germany, Holland USA and most of all England all bringing cash north. I begin to notice the tens of thousands of acres of farm land with the best beef in the world, the tens of thousands of sheep and the tens of thousands of acres of barley and potatoes. I look at the hills and see millions of trees for making chip board and paper. I drive in to Edinburgh and see the factories the offices and the multicultural mass of people busying about their business and I ask myself
WHY CAN ANYONE SAY WE LIVE IN A POOR COUNTRY THAT IS UNABLE TO LOOK AFTER ITS SELF? Scotland exports over a billion bottles of whisky a year all taxed at source. WE produce over £12 billion a year in oil revenue. surely added to corporation tax income tax on the public and small businesses VAT and the likes we have enough cash to run our own country and out the things that are wrong to rights.
I agree with all that you say, in Aberdeenshire I see the farming, the lorries leaving Inverurie with the best beef, lamb and pork, I see the fishing boats in Peterhead and Fraserburgh catching the fish, and in Aberdeen I see the oil service companies who not only operate in the North sea but worldwide.
I recall seeing in a hotel in north Wales the soap and shampoo sachets made by a small company in Scotland, maybe its because we both live in prosperous areas of Scotland but like you I would love to see the areas of deprivation proper and begin to see and apreciate what you, I and many others can already see and experience.
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320. patchbruce:
So what will change under independence for all these people on benefit?
Will thousands of jobs suddenly appear overnight?
I'm not being sarcastic, but to push forward and argument for independence you absolutely must give people something tangible and realistic that will make them join the cause for independence.
Unfortunately, every time someone mentions "300 years of theft" or whatever, most of the public switch off. Why? Because they cannot see what has been stolen from them.
---------------------
On Billy Wolfe, whatever his views, he still managed to win almost twice as many seats as Salmond did.
Perhaps his successors should pay closer attention to how he managed this.
---------------------
412. ForteanJo:
Might be my fault!! I had the temerity to criticise the SNP's general election strategy, and grannie kicked off at me, then eye_right at her..........then one or two others decided to put their tuppence in. No wonder RE has been quiet of late, he can't get a word in edgeways!
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well I supposed we have moved on from, in the 1970s, "Vote Liberal or we shoot your dog"
I think I would have been happier if the LidDems had gone into a Supply and Confidence arrangement, it would have been fairer
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415. eye_write
Some are well aware of the differences between the 'gradualists' and 'fundamentalists' in the SNP. These are long standing debates which neither you nor for that matter anyone on this blog has the final answer to. However, the demand for a referendum which you seem to be pretty willing to throw overboard if you are willing to wait yet another three hundred years to get our country back is not going to go away.
Speaking of seeing oneself as other see us as you referenced in an above post, you might try it.
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Electric-Hermit seems to have taking his plea, to the "Quirkynats" site.
Well, that's where all the cooldudes go?
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416. peteraberdeenshire
"I agree with all that you say, in Aberdeenshire I see the farming, the lorries leaving Inverurie with the best beef, lamb and pork, I see the fishing boats in Peterhead and Fraserburgh catching the fish, and in Aberdeen I see the oil service companies who not only operate in the North sea but worldwide.
I recall seeing in a hotel in north Wales the soap and shampoo sachets made by a small company in Scotland, maybe its because we both live in prosperous areas of Scotland but like you I would love to see the areas of deprivation proper and begin to see and apreciate what you, I and many others can already see and experience."
We live in such a great nation, one with a history of both bravery and great intellectual achievement. To see so much of our nation in penury and shamed and degraded is horrible.
It doesn't have to be like this. We can change it.
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409. Tom
It's not about that, Tom. It's that the public perception is too much that nationalists are a little bit racist, a bit xenophobic etc. etc. I don't think mentioning our neighbours in pejorative terms, just because some of them did that to us on this blog, is going to help with this image, but rather cement it. I have asked Electric Hermit and GrannieAnne what they think we should do to tackle this, given that the media and elsewhere actively peddles it, and they've come back with nothing. I think it's an important factor in our future efforts to win more votes, which should be ignored at our peril. OK, my piece said.
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The Emperor might have a few tactical nous, but no clothes
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On bigoted individuals, there are plenty on all sides of the political spectrum. Remember that wonderful email about the young man who had connections to Purcell?
In this blog over the past few months there have been accusations raised by all sides, some have implied unsavoury affiliations to do with religion, some to do with where someone lives, some demeaning individuals because of who they vote for.
You will never, ever hear such comments from politicians (bar the odd idiot). Why? Because it is an instant vote loser and can do untold damage to their party.
So why start them here?
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417. enneffess
"I had the temerity to criticise the SNP's general election strategy, and grannie kicked off at me"
HOW the heck did I "kick off at you"? Other than saying I thought your ciritidisms were better made to the SNP instead of on a blog?
Not ONCE did I say that the SNP campaign was perfect, but I see no point in discussing it. I don't think the slogan you complained about (which seemed to be your main complaint as far as I could tell) was any worse than the others. It may have been better than the others--or perhaps not. Certainly a matter of opinion but other than making decisions about the next campaign, what difference does it make?
But if you want to go on complaining about a past campaign, that is certainly your right.
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417. enneffess
"On Billy Wolfe, whatever his views, he still managed to win almost twice as many seats as Salmond did.
Perhaps his successors should pay closer attention to how he managed this."
Exactly what I said for which I was called a racist! LOL
He wasn't perfect. I disagreed with him on a number of points but a hard look at what he did RIGHT would not be a bad idea.
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419. GrannieAnne
"However, the demand for a referendum which you seem to be pretty willing to throw overboard if you are willing to wait yet another three hundred years to get our country back is not going to go away."
Why are you making up things you think I think now? It does not say much for your sanity. That's a grumpy, sulky and absurd thing to say. Come on, get over that we've fallen out - yesterday you said you didn't care about being liked.
I am of course absolutely in favour of having a referendum. Your adamant angst though is what will make sure we don't see independence for possibly three hundred years.
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418. RandomScot
"I think I would have been happier if the LidDems had gone into a Supply and Confidence arrangement, it would have been fairer"
I think it would have been one heck of a lot easier to explain to their voters. In fact, a lot would have been very sympathetic snce I don't think anyone wants an immediate election. But now it looks like thei sold their souls for a few minor minesterial seats (including one they campaigned to get rid of!) and the bone of AV which they have always opposed.
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#231. At 5:24pm on 15 May 2010, oldnat wrote:
157. Auld Bob
"For better or worse, Scotland owns a share of all Union goods & chattels, ((chattel=(legal term), any property other than freehold land, including tangible goods (chattels personal) and leasehold interests (chattels real)). "
That was what I had understood (and looked forward to selling off our bit of the House of Commons to McDonalds!)
There could be a little problen with those rules though. When the state called the UK is already composed of countries that existed before the UK was formed just who or what is the state the claimes anything in its borders? the |Country it is in or the, then defunct,UK?
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422. eye_write
"I have asked Electric Hermit and GrannieAnne what they think we should do to tackle this, given that the media and elsewhere actively peddles it, and they've come back with nothing. "
Someone who has used ageist insults and shown themselves to be a bigot themselves has no room to talk and I certainly have no intention of discussing it with you.
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#382 InfrequentAllele2
So how about New Englander? Or its use by black Britons to claim their right to be treated like any other native born English?
Assumptions as to the connotations that words used will carry to the readers of those words led to the only "allowed" reading in American liberal arts colleges at the hight of the PC nonsense being the telephone directory. Urban myth but worthy of discussion in the light of the battle now being fought over the building of bridges / burning of boats between Nationalists.
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419. GrannieAnne
"Speaking of seeing oneself as other see us as you referenced in an above post, you might try it."
I see myself quite fine, many flaws and all. Question is, do you judge yourself?
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"397. At 8:55pm on 15 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
And I haste to say that by that I mean the leaders of the party. As you say, the voters had NO way of knowing the consequences of their vote and were told, in the course of the election, that the consequences would be OPPOSITE of what they were."
That statement is basically mince.
People who vote for their party - whatever it is - is voting primarily to get their local candidate elected. By doing so, they increase the chances of their party gaining power. Clegg probably had the idea of a coalition beforehand, but like others probably expected the Tories to scrape a majority.
I am sure there are those who voted for SNP who did not under any circumstances want any deals with Labour or the Lib Dems, me included.
There are Tory voters who did not want a deal.
There are Labour voters who did not want any deals.
NO-ONE knew what was going to happen until all the votes had been counted. The Tories came very close to winning a majority, which would have kicked the Lib Dems into touch. Had we not had the expenses scandal, the Tories might have succeeded.
Cameron could have ignored the Lib Dems and allowed Brown to remain in office, which probably would have resulted in another election within weeks, likely giving the Tories the majority and flattening the Lib Dems. We would then be faced with a Tory government without any restraint. I have no time whatsoever for the Lib Dems, but the fact we now have a coalition means the Tories cannot have everything their own way. Not ideal for Scotland, but better than the alternative. A Tory government might hasten independence, but not within the timescale of a Westminster parliament.
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382. InfrequentAllele2
"Despite some claims here, "Englander" is not a Lallans word. "
Did somebody make such a claim?
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425. GrannieAnne
"417. enneffess"
See, she was calm, considered and quite polite and charming ;-)
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424. enneffess
"On bigoted individuals, there are plenty on all sides of the political spectrum. Remember that wonderful email about the young man who had connections to Purcell?
In this blog over the past few months there have been accusations raised by all sides, some have implied unsavoury affiliations to do with religion, some to do with where someone lives, some demeaning individuals because of who they vote for.
You will never, ever hear such comments from politicians (bar the odd idiot). Why? Because it is an instant vote loser and can do untold damage to their party.
So why start them here?"
No doubt in my post where I complained about the huge amount of spite and hatred I've run into from many English toward Scots, I should have put in some kind of caveat that no doubt there are plenty of English who don't hate us. I have a neighbor who was born and raised in England who doesn't hate the Scots--but you see SHE is now a Scot. (Hmmm... not sure where that went)
Anyway, even had I put in the "appropriate" caveat the comment would have still been separated from that and attacked. And THAT is why I am not going to walk on eggshells to try to avoid giving offense because anything we say can be taken out of context and twisted into something with the opposite meaning of what we intended anyway.
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382. InfrequentAllele2
"So if you don't mind creating the mental association of Scottish nationalism with childrens' comic book Nazis, keep using the word Englander. "
I have to say (well I don't "have to" but I will anyway!). that when I see that word it immediately brings to mind the stereotyping of my youth. The phrase which I remember clearly as appearing in many comic book bubbles is "Ze Englanders have escaped!"
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"A new sort of politics" take a look at what a man in his eighties thinks.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitext/int_tonybenn.html
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eye_write
Re public perception of nationalists as being just biased against the English?
Just do as the SNP do, be inclusive, be grown-up and stick with it.
I have not seen McGlashan style anti-English/90 minute Nationalist behaviour for ages
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"425. At 9:59pm on 15 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
But if you want to go on complaining about a past campaign, that is certainly your right."
If you don't pay attention to what went wrong, then the same mistakes will likely be made again. There is no great secret about what I said. It certainly wasn't damaging for the SNP either. I put the points on this blog to see what others thought. Instead of the expected constructive comments, I got the standard responses which are given every time someone dares even hints at criticising the SNP.
And for the record, I made far deeper comments on an SNP blog. The difference there is that the respondents debate the points in a sensible and mature manner, accepting some points, disagreeing with others and raising their own.
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#234. At 5:27pm on 15 May 2010, GrannieAnne wrote:
186. Electric Hermit
"Pompous claptrap! Neither people's are a distinct "race". At worst, this might be taken as hinting at some underlying mild xenophobia coloured by a bit of hyperbole. But even that would be a stretch given that the blogosphere is replete with individuals identifying themselves as English whilst blaming Scotland for a number and range of ills that falls not far short of "everything"."
I will plead guilty to a bit of hyperbole in the comment.
God knows, all you have to do is read this blog or even better Guido Fawkes any time the subject of Scots come up--or go to England and see how many snide remarks you are subjected to.
What I find funny is that there is no worse country than England in the UK for, "Racist", name calling than the one being so stoutly defended. Let me see now, "Jock, Haggis, Haggis Basher, Paddy, Pat, Mick, Taffy, , et al. Now tell be a derogatory name that any UK country has for the English, and the poor wee dears are upset if I call them Englanders? (mind you I've always used the term and never had a single one object). Remember I worked among them and in a Naval base full of mainly English workers and sailors.
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382. InfrequentAllele2
"So if you don't mind creating the mental association of Scottish nationalism with childrens' comic book Nazis, keep using the word Englander. "
As you said, "...we can never determine the associations and emotional response it provokes in other people." So if you are perverse enough to make the above association you must look to your own mental state for explanations.
The simple fact is that there will always be those on the fringes who seek to poison people's minds in the way that eye_write and other anti-nationalists do. It is not possible to prevent them from portraying perfectly innocent comments as "evidence" of malign intent because they will find this "evidence" in anything that is said. They will find it because, as you have done, they conjure it from their own mind.
The point to note is that the ranting of people such as eye_write tells you vastly more about them than it says about any of those being attacked. And it is a sad, sad tale.
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425. GrannieAnne
"Not ONCE did I say that the SNP campaign was perfect, but I see no point in discussing it."
I do. Would it not be a lot wiser to pay attention to how potential voters perceived it? It's the whole point, I would have thought.
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411. GrannieAnne
"As for my reference to the English--I was talking about people who IDENTIFY themselves as English and talk a lot of hatred toward the Scots."
Fair enough, but I see them (and their Scots equivalents) as both victims of perfidious Brits! Just as long as the Brits (I use the American term to refer to the political elite, rather than those genuine people who happen to consider their nation as "British") can persuade Scots and English to blame each other, the Brits can happily control both nations - and line their pockets in so doing.
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417. enneffess
Oh, well, I still think it's a moot point but what do I think was wrong with the SNP campaign? No, I'm not in love with "More Nats, Less Cuts". I don't think people believed it and it was too negative but I don't think it had any impact one way or the other. (Does anyone actually decide how to vote on the basis of a campaign slogan?) Still it could have been better.
I agree with the decision to not campaign on independence which is irrelevant to Westminster but we should have had a campaign that emphasised our liberal roots and the positive ways we differ from the other parties other than that they are "London parties". Well, yes, they are but that wouldn't keep me from voting for one if it was best for Scotland. Instead we could have come down hard on a number of issues: Helping the economy by scrapping Trident and ID Cards, forcing the government to release Scottish funds, and a number of other issues that would have been seen as positive rather than negative. While the Champions slogan wasn't perfect (is any?) at least it was positive in nature.
But frankly, the entire campaign was consumed by the debates. I thought the SNP reaction to try to negotiate and then go to the courts was the only option.
My opinion for what it's worth. But the Holyrood campaign will be totally different in nature. I don't think much from one applies to the other. The ONE thing I want to see is a campaign that focuses on SNP core values and what the SNP stands for.
And I have taken my own advice and seen that the SNP has heard the opinion of this one member along with my donation.
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#382 InfrequentAllele2
Silly me, you asked English people. Surely the whole point of eye_write's protest are the tender susceptabilities of the voter in Scottish constituencies, so a poll of even 8 English tells us nothing about whether her complaint about the use of the word Englander is justified in that it upsets voters in Scottish constituencies who would otherwise support the SNP.
If she can produce evidence that the use of the word Englander induces unionist thoughts in otherwise sensible voters in Scottish constituencies then I will agree with her, otherwise I will support free speech.
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417. enneffess
"Might be my fault!!"
Aha. The Scottish cringe!!!! :-) :-)
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390. eye_write
"That infers (woa there Electric Hermit!) it was not all good, correct?"
Ignorance is not a character flaw. It is simply a state of not knowing. Wilful ignorance, on the other hand, evidences a serious defect of character. Despite being told repeatedly, you still have chosen to remain ignorant of the difference between the terms "infer" and "imply". Which would be nothing more than embarrassing for yourself if it was not for the fact that you presume to lecture others on the matter of language.
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426. GrannieAnne
"Exactly what I said for which I was called a racist! LOL"
You were called a racist for saying Wolfe won more votes, "LOL"?
Nope, your comments were racist for they tarred all English people with the same negative brush.
Selective memory? Or...
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427. eye_write
"Why are you making up things you think I think now? It does not say much for your sanity. "
You really can't resist ad hominem attacks and agist attacks. So let's take a look at what you did say: ""GrannieAnne, you will only get what you want, independence, via increments. "
I suggest you might want to make up your mind. A referendum is not in increments. It would negotiate for immediate independence.
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434. Electric Hermit
"382. InfrequentAllele2
"Despite some claims here, "Englander" is not a Lallans word. "
Did somebody make such a claim?"
Yes, it was Auld Bob.
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429. Auld Bob
All UN considerations start from the status quo. That's built in to the original Charter. There was always a conflict between the UN principles of maintaining existing territorial boundaries, and allowing national self-determination.
In the early years of the UN, the focus was on creating procedures which allowed for better transitions from colonial status. It is to the credit of the UN that, in the 80's, they recognised the inevitability that existing states would disaggregate, and settled principles in international law that would allow that to happen without unnecessary dispute.
Since then, case law has developed with the dissolution of the USSR, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.
The scare stories about the dissolution of existing states are exactly that.
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436. GrannieAnne
"Anyway, even had I put in the "appropriate" caveat the comment would have still been separated from that and attacked. And THAT is why I am not going to walk on eggshells to try to avoid giving offense because anything we say can be taken out of context and twisted into something with the opposite meaning of what we intended anyway."
But a grown up would be mature enough to try, especially if the future of their own cause depended on winning the votes of those who 'might be offended'.
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441. Auld Bob
"God knows, all you have to do is read this blog or even better Guido Fawkes any time the subject of Scots come up--or go to England and see how many snide remarks you are subjected to."
It doesn't matter! If they do it, they're wrong. If we do it, we're wrong!
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412. ForteanJo
"This argument between eye write and the rest....what exactly are they arguing about? "
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am merely objecting to eye_write's persistent efforts over a period of days to portray nationalists as racists, xenophobes and bigots. I object to this as I would to any such generalised slur based on a facile stereotype no matter who it was directed against.
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442. Electric Hermit
So, basically anyone who disagrees with you is of unsound mind? Sincerely, is it paranoia?
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444. oldnat
"Fair enough, but I see them (and their Scots equivalents) as both victims of perfidious Brits! Just as long as the Brits (I use the American term to refer to the political elite, rather than those genuine people who happen to consider their nation as "British") can persuade Scots and English to blame each other, the Brits can happily control both nations - and line their pockets in so doing."
But you see the corner you have allowed yourself to be backed into?
You are apologising for saying Brit. There is NO term that you don't have to apply some caveat to and apologise for using.
And at SOME point some political enemy is going to take the comment out of context and use it against you.
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445. GrannieAnne
"Instead we could have come down hard on a number of issues: Helping the economy by scrapping Trident and ID Cards, forcing the government to release Scottish funds, and a number of other issues that would have been seen as positive rather than negative."
Those were mainstays of the SNP's campaign and I heard them repeated over and over by members, on TV and radio.
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433. enneffess
"That statement is basically mince."
Considering that in my constituency (and a number of others that I know of for a fact) the LibDems openly campaigned SAYING vote LibDem to keep the Tories out--your comment is mince.
So we disagree.
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443. eye_write
"Would it not be a lot wiser to pay attention to how potential voters perceived it? "
Oh, so we are going to decide how to run the next campaign here? I rather doubt it. I said feedback to the party was a heck of a lot more effective and that was what I did.
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434. Electric Hermit
""Despite some claims here, "Englander" is not a Lallans word. "
Did somebody make such a claim?"
I never saw such a claim. I don't think New Englanders generally speak Lallans, for example. I think it's a pretty old word in the English language.
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446. handclapping
"
If she can produce evidence that the use of the word Englander induces unionist thoughts in otherwise sensible voters in Scottish constituencies then I will agree with her, otherwise I will support free speech."
She doesn't claim that, as you well know! My view is that it puts off otherwise neutral or floating voters who might decide the bad stereotype of nats is true and not then get as far as really listening to their message. There's always some that will, but my point is there's a lot that won't. And we want their vote too.
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440. enneffess
"There is no great secret about what I said. It certainly wasn't damaging for the SNP either. "
I never said you were damaging the SNP. I didn't accuse of of any such thing. I don't know that the discussion would particularly damage the party but Holyrood GEs and Westminster GEs are by their very nature totally different. The issues and circumstances will be totally different except that the SNP will still be dealing with a 100% hostile press.
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450. GrannieAnne
"I suggest you might want to make up your mind. A referendum is not in increments. It would negotiate for immediate independence."
Not necessarily. There could be three options, one being independence, one 'devo-max' and one the status quo. If you want to 'have a go', you'll have to try again.
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448. Electric Hermit
It's only you that's discussing it. As I said, woa there Electric Hermit.
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458. eye_write
"Those were mainstays of the SNP's campaign and I heard them repeated over and over by members, on TV and radio.
C"
I didn't hear the issue of the frozen Scottish fund brought up even once and the other issues, while raised, were not the "mainstay" but side issues.
However, that is moot. Not only is that election long over the same issues will not be the ones that determine the Holyrood election.
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457. GrannieAnne
LOL :-)
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417. enneffess
"I'm not being sarcastic, but to push forward and argument for independence you absolutely must give people something tangible and realistic that will make them join the cause for independence.
"
There are sound, rational arguments in abundance. But we must start from an acceptance that the aspiration to national self-determination is, in its own right, a necessary and sufficient reason to campaign for independence. It is not the aberration that anti-nationalist would have us believe.
Would these anti-nationalists demand of a French citizen that they justify their nation's existence with arguments from the dismal science? Would they insist that a Swiss national is not entitled to think of his/her country as a distinct entity without backing up this claim with reams of statistics?
Of course not!
Why then should Scotland be treated differently? What makes Scotland a special case among all the nations of the world?
It doesn't matter what economic arguments are advanced or how solid the case is, anti-nationalists will remain anti-nationalist not because they have yet to be persuaded but because anti-nationalism is, for them, an entrenched ideological position. A position from which they will never be moved until they too shake off the stultifying inertia that binds them to the comfortably familiar status quo and aspire to the fundamental democratic principle of national self-determination.
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460. GrannieAnne
"Oh, so we are going to decide how to run the next campaign here? I rather doubt it. I said feedback to the party was a heck of a lot more effective and that was what I did."
But that still means it's OK to debate the campaign here. Or is it too much for some of us to disagree with you on that? It is a political blog. Nothing stopping anyone discussing campaigns on a blog and offering their feedback to the SNP is there?
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464. eye_write
"There could be three options, one being independence, one 'devo-max' and one the status quo. If you want to 'have a go', you'll have to try again."
Something only VERY recently added and very appropriately critidised as backing away from our core values. I oppose it along with a lot of other nationalists.
Opponents in Holyrood should be forced to vote it down and nail their colours to the mast instead of being allowed to blether on about confusing referendums, etc as they are now.
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466. GrannieAnne
"I didn't hear the issue of the frozen Scottish fund brought up even once"
I did, in the debate, and with Brian Taylor, from memory.
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#462 eye_write
And just how many of these poor souls are there? and how many of them actually go out and vote? Where are your facts? We know what your perceptions are. Are they sufficiently justified for you to be using the same technique that was used by the Communists to brainwash allied captives in the Korean War on fellow Nationalists?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
439. RandomScot
"I have not seen McGlashan style anti-English/90 minute Nationalist behaviour for ages"
Precisely. It was not something I even associated with modern civic nationalism. And I still don't - despite eye_write's efforts to encourage such a perception.
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457. GrannieAnne
"You are apologising for saying Brit."
You are misreading/not understanding/wilfully misrepresenting (delete any that do not apply).
I was apologising for nothing. I was explaining my choice of term for the UK's political elite. Since they are the UK political elite, they are not exactly rapid in coming forward with a term for themselves! :-)
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#275. At 6:01pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
261. GrannieAnne
"Well, you have spent days trying to convince anyone who reads this blog that nationalists are nasty racists. Suspect most people can see through the ruse."
Well, you sound like a nasty racist. So good job dispelling the 'ruse'
Of course no one will notice the ageist and sexist stuff you post - now will they?
You have posted some very offensive stuff in the last wee while. The thing is you are wrong, but so obtuse you cannot own it to yourself. Like, for example your continued claims that due to me being old you lecture me that the language is changing and I, for some strange reason have been so isolated from modern life I have been left behind. That is ageism and is just the latest of several post about several people from you. You really are a very nasy piece of work, (or is that now a modern complement). Because of my way of life I probably meet and talk with more young people in a normal day than you do. I also probably meet far more people of different ethnic backgrounds, races and religious groups.
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468. Electric Hermit
So, again, it is other people's fault that they are 'anti-nationalist' - that's a nice new PC word ;-)
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461. GrannieAnne
"I think it's a pretty old word in the English language.
"
Infrequent Allele is a skilled philologist. If you doubt his opinion, then the least you can do is to cite some evidence for your assertion.
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474. Electric Hermit
"439. RandomScot
"I have not seen McGlashan style anti-English/90 minute Nationalist behaviour for ages"
Precisely. It was not something I even associated with modern civic nationalism. And I still don't - despite eye_write's efforts to encourage such a perception."
It was only you two that referred to it.
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440. enneffess
"If you don't pay attention to what went wrong, then the same mistakes will likely be made again."
Despite the recent propaganda seeking to depict the SNP campaign as an "unmitigated disaster" the fact is that there were no huge "mistakes". If results are any indication then the SNP campaign was no worse than any of the others.
Neither is there any reason to suppose that lessons will not be learned from such failings as there were. I have not the slightest doubt that an internal report is being prepared as we speak. If, indeed, this has not already been done.
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475. oldnat
"You are misreading/not understanding/wilfully misrepresenting (delete any that do not apply).
I was apologising for nothing. I was explaining my choice of term for the UK's political elite. Since they are the UK political elite, they are not exactly rapid in coming forward with a term for themselves!"
It came across as an apology. If you want to term it as a justification, that is fine.
My point remains. I'll omit self-serving and hypocritical emotes on hostile comments though.
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476. Auld Bob
"your continued claims that due to me being old you lecture me that the language is changing and I, for some strange reason have been so isolated from modern life I have been left behind. That is ageism"
That is fantasy, and precious huffiness. Funny 'cause you deny that others can have similar reactions to real offensive stuff you post.
"You really are a very nasy piece of work"
No, I can put over an argument effectively and plainly, for you. But you only get angrier and angrier if I do not defer, to you. Who's nasty?
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Electric Hermit
Yes. AuldBob said it was a Scots word, somewhere further up. But I'm not going to look for it because I'll lose the will to live.
handclapping
You already have free speech. Say what you like, how you like to say it. It's entirely up to you. The point I was making is that you can control your intention when you say something, but you cannot control how your words are perceived. Perception rests in the mind and experience of someone else.
Politics is largely about perceptions. If we want to influence politics it is commonsense to consider how others perceive the words we use.
What I find most interesting is the amount of time, energy and anger several people here have put into a furious argument about a trivial linguistic point. Truly, this linguistic geek is humbled.
Still, I suppose it's a distraction from the sheer numbing terror of the prospect of another god-knows-how-long period of Tory rule. And the dismal thought that it's not looking like we'll get our collective act together to do anything about it.
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476. Auld Bob
PS Here's a west of Scotland term, 'big baws'.
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468. Electric Hermit
"anti-nationalists will remain anti-nationalist not because they have yet to be persuaded but because anti-nationalism is, for them, an entrenched ideological position."
I'm sure that the international socialist movement contains such people - indeed, I saw a Londoner who was supporting the Red Shirts, being interviewed in Bangkok.
However, the core debate here is whether Scottish or British Nationalism will triumph in Scotland. There are lots of people who are undecided (or don't give a damn!) The only important question is how to persuade people to vote for parties that will bring about the desired result.
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At comment 424 enneffess wrote:
In this blog over the past few months there have been accusations raised by all sides, some have implied unsavoury affiliations to do with religion, some to do with where someone lives, some demeaning individuals because of who they vote for.
You will never, ever hear such comments from politicians
Wrong, oh so wrong.
Erstwhile Junior Scotland Office Minister David Cairns referred to Scots of an independence bent as "swivel eyed anti-English bigots".
The Scottish media 'Purcelled' or 'Marshalled' the comment.
Salmond was also compared to Hitler by another Scottish Labour MP. George Foulkes made much the same accusations on BBC TV a couple of years ago.
I believe a Lib Dem MSP made similar comments not so long ago.
The sad thing is that attacks of this nature pretty much always come from Scottish politicians.
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471. eye_write
"I did, in the debate, and with Brian Taylor, from memory."
My mistake. It was brought up twice in the entire campaign. That certainly made it a major issue.
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441. Auld Bob
"Now tell be a derogatory name that any UK country has for the English, and the poor wee dears are upset if I call them Englanders? (mind you I've always used the term and never had a single one object). Remember I worked among them and in a Naval base full of mainly English workers and sailors."
I too have used the term over many years as a collective noun without ethnic connotations, and never heard any complaint until eye_rite started ranting about it. It is synonymous with "people of England" and an alternative that may be used to avoid repetition. Nothing more sinister than that.
But, as I say, if people are absolutely determined to be offended there is little anyone can do to prevent it.
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476. Auld Bob
"Of course no one will notice the ageist and sexist stuff you post "
Where is it? Or are you just doing your usual of rant, rant, rant?
(How many folk say, "I voted that way because that candidate ranted at me"...?)
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Gerry Hassan believes Alex Salmond has become the victim of his own ruse.
Left or right Alex!
" Alex Salmond, once a radical left-winger in the days when he was an economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland in the 1980s, has now undergone a full conversion to celebrating and advocating corporate interests. This can be seen in Salmond’s fully fledged support for Donald Trump’s luxury golf development in North East Scotland, or his consistent advocacy for the corporate interests of the Royal Bank of Scotland:"
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476. Auld Bob
"You have posted some very offensive stuff in the last wee while."
That's just smearing me. The last resort if you're losing the argument? :-(
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470. GrannieAnne
"I oppose it along with a lot of other nationalists. "
In that case you should seriously consider moving to the FSP. As far as I know they are the only party supporting the idea of a totally independent Scotland outwith any form of Union.
Given the argument you are making - that Devo Max (which polls indicate would be the most popular option) should not be offered as an option to the people of Scotland - were you also opposed to the establishment of a devolved Scottish Parliament?
It sounds as if you are saying that unless Scotland gets exactly the amount of independence you demand (membership of the UN limits national sovereignty) then we are better off as we are - or even better off as we were last century.
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452. oldnat
"The scare stories about the dissolution of existing states are exactly that."
Good point. Independence is often portrayed as some kind of unknown territory reached by an equally mysterious route. Not so, of course. There are lots of independent nations in the world and lots of nations that have become independent having been colonies, satellite states etc.
It's a well-trod and well signposted road we wish to travel.
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481. GrannieAnne
That there was no apology intended in the content of the statement has been made clear to you. You thought there was. Therefore you were mistaken. You have no point.
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456. eye_write
"Sincerely, is it paranoia?"
I wouldn't presume to offer a diagnosis. Consult your medical practitioner.
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472. handclapping
"And just how many of these poor souls are there?"
Obviously the number is unknown. However, much of the thrust of anti-SNP propaganda has been focussed on using terms such as "narrow nationalists", "anti-English", "separatists" etc etc.
Now you may well be right and that none of that propaganda has had any effect at all. Alternatively, eye-write may be correct in saying that there are people who have been so persuaded, and that such views are confirmed by the language that some Nats use.
Are any such brainwashed people "poor souls"? In which case, where do you think the brain washing has been coming from?
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From 483. InfrequentAllele2
"Politics is largely about perceptions. If we want to influence politics it is commonsense to consider how others perceive the words we use. "
Can I ask that Auld Bob, GrannieAnne and Electric Hermit do read this please.
They've sought to rise at me when I've attempted to make this very point. Fine. But can we see if InfrequentAllele2, for he must also be wrong, is as unworthy? Is he too lacking (in intelligence)? Is he deserving of the same ire?
If not, why not?
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#278. At 6:05pm on 15 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
256. Auld Bob
In 'my world' old people are supposed to know better! Actually, they are just the same as the rest of us, except obviously judging by you, more grumpy!
Has it not entered your warped mind that YOU have been grumping at many posters and ignorantly telling them they are racist. What is even worse is that you have not actually shown anyone to have made racist comments. In doing so you have worried the subject like a terrier with a bone. You have been shown to be wrong on every single accusation you have leveled at anyone and done more harn to the nationalists cause than the Labour party have managed since Salmond became First Minister. You attempt to tell me that I don't know, "Little Englander", is a racist term. It isn't if used properly. Now read this slowly. If I called someone , "A little Englander", who was shouting the odds that England should be out of the EU, UN, pull out of NATO and so on I would be using the term properly. That is the modern use of a term once used as name for a political movement who opposed the spread of the British Empire. If I called someone that name and they were not English isolationalist then it could be an insult but certainly not racist. It is academic anyway. I did not use the term you claimed I did. Then you made a claim someone who used a simile to described the voters in a certain Glasgow Constituency was racist. Once again you got it wrong. You got the wrong simile. You blethered something about an Australian saying. However you got the origins wrong. It is a very old Irish proverb and I remember it being used in the Commons because it involved the SNP. Here is the full text from Hansard. Spoken by Prime Minister James Callaghan, (became Baron Callaghan of Cardiff).
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We can truly say that once the Leader of the Opposition had discovered what the Liberals and the SNP were going to do, she found the courage of their convictions. So, this evening, the Conservative Party, who want the Act repealed and oppose even devolution, will march through the Lobby with the SNP, who want independence for Scotland, and with the Liberals, who want to keep the Act. What a massive display of unsullied principle! The minority parties have walked into a trap. If they win, there will be a general election. I am told that the current joke going round the House is that it is the first time in recorded history that turkeys have been known to vote for an early Christmas.
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You can make all these idiotic claims but you only harn yourself and the Nationalist cause. You really do not know what racism, or racist comments are. The fault lies inside your head and in your head only.
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492. oldnat
"In that case you should seriously consider moving to the FSP. As far as I know they are the only party supporting the idea of a totally independent Scotland outwith any form of Union.
Given the argument you are making - that Devo Max (which polls indicate would be the most popular option) should not be offered as an option to the people of Scotland - were you also opposed to the establishment of a devolved Scottish Parliament?
It sounds as if you are saying that unless Scotland gets exactly the amount of independence you demand (membership of the UN limits national sovereignty) then we are better off as we are - or even better off as we were last century."
Funny, who is now misreading or deliberately misunderstanding? Where did I mention a outwith any union at all?
You linked to a comment that didn't have a single word about being in ANY union except the UK. So outwith the UK we can't be in, for example, the EU? Hmmmm....
You seem to have conveniently forgotten that a LOT of SNP members and nationalists were opposed to devolution which was put forward as a way to kill nationalism. Remember that? I had no enthusiasm for devolution but voted for it anyway as a least worst option. If I have to I'll take gradualism. That doesn't mean I have to say that it's what I want or agree that it is the only choice.
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463. GrannieAnne:
Westminster and Holyrood elections are different, but what happened during the Westminster election can have a knock on effect.
There were a number of issues where, if the SNP does the same next year, they are putting the opportunity for a majority in grave danger.
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