A matter of perception
UPDATE 0655 BST: All 58 Scottish seats that are declaring overnight are in. No seats change hands - with, again, the exception of the by-election reversals. By comparison with last general election, status quo on seats.
UPDATE 0455 BST: As forecast here, Alex Salmond is now openly challenging the Tories' mandate to govern Scotland.
On the respect agenda, he said it had to be proven in deed, not through rhetoric.
By this, I presume that the FM means that fiscal autonomy should be delivered to the Scottish Parliament.
UPDATE 0431 BST: Is there a Celtic factor at play?
No. Scotland's results are distinctive but the picture in Wales is comparable to that in England.
In Wales, the Labour vote is down while the Tories' vote is up. In Wales, the Lib Dems have added votes at much the same pace as in England.
Scotland? Labour up. Tories up in share - but only a wee bit. LibDems down.
More, Plaid are down in Wales, SNP up in Scotland.
UPDATE 0425 BST: Where's your "respect agenda" now? Looks like the Tories will have but a single seat in Scotland.
David Cameron said that, as PM, he would offer "respect" to the devolved settlement and the first minister of Scotland. David Mundell has just confirmed that, stressing mutual respect.
But would Alex Salmond reciprocate? His strategy is to govern consensually within the existing structure while arguing, simultaneously, for independence.
But might he not be more tempted to challenge the Tories' mandate to govern Scotland?
UPDATE 0410 BST: Another one bites the dust. If there is to be a Tory gain, it won't be West Aberdeenshire.
Alex Johnstone for the Tories recorded a swing - but not enough to take the seat from Sir Robert Smith of the Lib Dems.
Still no change in seats in Scotland - those by-elections apart.
UPDATE 0405 BST: Labour comfortably holds Dumfries and Galloway, despite challenge from ex-MP Peter Duncan.
Those Tory targets are shrinking fast. If the Tories form a government, looks like David Mundell would be Scottish secretary.
Unless, of course, the post went to another party.
Or was abolished. (Not Tory policy - but might it be the policy of any partners?)
UPDATE 0350 BST: And he's back. David Mundell retains his vast Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale constituency.
Forecasts of a Tory-free Scotland are, as Mr Mundell himself reckoned, shown to be exaggerated.
But, as things stand, doesn't look as if he will be joined by many or indeed any buddies.
UPDATE 0339 BST: And so at least one MSP will have to remain contented with the Scottish Parliament.
John Lamont of the Tories fails to take Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk from the LibDems.
He added votes - but Michael Moore for the LibDems also added to his share. So net swing to the Tories very small.
Will any seat change hands in Scotland tonight - by-election reversals apart?
Alex Salmond forecasting that SNP result in terms of share will be best since 1970s.
UPDATE 0313 BST: The chancellor of the exchequer - that is, the incumbent of Number 11 in the last parliament - is a cautious individual.
He frets perpetually about his constituency. Despite that, he has now been returned comfortably, registering swings in his direction.
Catch that comment from David Cameron?
He is saying that Labour has lost its mandate. He is not yet claiming the right to adopt that mandate in their stead.
At this stage, he is content to counter Labour claims that they would be able to remain in office.
UPDATE 0259 BST: Quote from Douglas Alexander: "What you need to govern in the United Kingdom is a majority in the House of Commons."
In other words, it need not be the largest party which governs.
Again, constitutionally accurate - as my little history piece on the telly reflected.
Labour, incidentally, is currently standing at 16 net losses. The Tories are standing at 17 net gains.
UPDATE 0244 BST: Again clock that divide north and south of the border.
Glance at Basildon South, for example. A swing from Labour to the Tories of 7.5% as the Conservatives take the seat.
In Scotland, the Tories appear to have been pegged back and it is Labour that is registering improvements in share.
Jim Murphy has been returned with big majority in East Ren. Actually registered swing from the Tories.
All the talk of a Tory gain comes to nothing.
UPDATE 0218 BST: As billed, Stewart Hosie returned in Dundee East.
Indeed, he registers a swing in his favour.
Overall, though, obvious that the party will not achieve target of 20 seats, as acknowledged now by Mike Russell.
UPDATE 0213 BST: That is a remarkable result for Labour in Dunfermline.
The widespread view - and I mean widespread among politicians as well as pundits - was that Willie Rennie had done enough to entrench himself since the by-election.
He put on votes from the last General Election but not enough to win.
Elsewhere, MSP number two heads for Westminster as Margaret Curran wins Glasgow East for Labour.
That means both by-election defeats for Labour return to the party in this general election.
John Mason secured a swing in his favour but not by enough to hold the seat.
UPDATE 0210 BST: And another thing.
Say Labour attempts to form an administration, despite slipping in the polls. Say they succeed.
Say that the Tories have more seats in England than Labour. Would the Tories then argue that the people of England must live with the outcome of a British general election?
Logically, given their stance re Scotland, they would.
Constitutionally, they would have little option.
But I can imagine they - or perhaps, more accurately their voters - might feel sore.
UPDATE 0205 BST: And so Cathy Jamieson takes Kilmarnock. Swing from SNP to Labour of 3.5%.
The first MSP tonight to switch to Westminster.
Turning to Dundee, on the swing in West, the SNP would lose East.
Think, however, that the incumbency and profile for Stewart Hosie may well counter that.
0143 BST: And so Gordon Brown is duly re-elected as the MP for Kirkcaldy. But will he still be PM by the weekend?
Signs are that Labour is doing relatively well in Scotland - but that there are swings against Labour across England.
Members of Team Brown are stressing that he would be entitled to attempt to form an administration even if he has lost his lead.
Constitutionally, that is absolutely correct. But, in terms of momentum, it presumably depends upon numbers - and upon perception.
Would the Liberal Democrats, for example, really be prepared to return to power a party which, across Britain, had palpably lost support?
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~07~RS~)
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So far, pretty much as expected - little change in the seats. Labour doing well here in vote share, SNP holding seats, No Tory advance, LDs losing vote share.
It's going to be fascinating to see how the UK works out how to form a Government, and how Scotland (and England) react to that.
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Labour pulling in an increased vote share in safe seats is all very well, but what use is that to anyone if they have a very bad night outside Scotland? Moreover, if that is what happens (let us say a result like the BBC exit poll or worse) what will be the political fallout be for the 2011 Scottish Parliament election? Food for thought surely!
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It is looking like there may well be the most stark contrast ever between voting in Scotland and the result determined by voters in England. This has the potential to create a near impossible situation for the British Labour Party (North British Branch) who will have to argue that the people of Scotland must meekly accept a government they have comprehensively rejected.
Roll on 2011!
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Do the (Labour) MSPs elected as MPs now give up their seats in Holyrood?
I think that may be a rhetorical question.
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Oldnat:
Scotland's voters generally seem to have put their weight behind Labour; to protect them from the Tories.
Laughable how Labour termed them (the SNP) irrelevant in a UK GE. Now (on the basis of better than expected results) they seem to view their successes as the voters' poor verdict of the SNP's performance in Government!
If, as I suspect, the Labour Scottish contingent fail to uphold their promise to protect their constituents; next year's Scottish Parliamentary elections shall be all the more fascinating!
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It will be interesting to see the percentage of postal votes in the Labour party holds in Scotland. I suspect there may be a few looking decidedly dodgy.
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Have voters in Scotland voted Labour again to keep the Tories out? But have they.
And interesting how the profiled incumbent Labour candidate victors instantly make a point of attacking the SNP.
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It's interesting to see Murphy already trying to attack the SNP for next years Scottish elections, a policy that may well bite him in the ass if Labour are able to cobble together some form of alliance to remain in power. Cuts are going to happen regardless of who is in power at Westminster and Scotland is going to suffer.
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Keeping one eye on proposed "electoral-reform" for UK GE's; both Labour's and the SNP's vote-share has increased by around the same margin so far (despite what Ian Gray says).
This would indicate a strengthening of the two-party system up here, as it is about to be broken-up down-south.
Is it just me, or has Glen become increasingly scathing of anyone but Labour as the programme progresses?
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http://the-universality-of-cheese.blogspot.com/2010/05/were-doomeddont-think-so.html
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Tories have just taken Carlisle.
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9. At 03:21am on 07 May 2010, gt-cri wrote:
Is it just me, or has Glen become increasingly scathing of anyone but Labour as the programme progresses?
Probably feels he's done his job well over the last few weeks, time for a review of the likes of Taylor and Co and a few P45s to be dished out.
Had to laugh at the state of Taylor sitting showing off his braces last night, time he did some exercise and time we investigated his expenses through FOI and compared them to a few Labour stalwards. I wonder if they would match-up.
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Of course, I should clarify the entire UK's system shall be up for reform; should the relevant parties proposing it get a bite of power.
The LD's interesting have returned to their 2001 share, as has Labour. The SNP however, are heading towards their highest showing since the last time a UK Parliament was hung!
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Congratulations to BBC Scotland for successfully throwing the election to Liebour.
The need for true impartiality in broadcasting, as well as proper electoral reform, is now absolutely clear.
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UOC: Read your blog-post...don't agree with the depressed part- for a party of Government to increase their vote-share is not depressing!
Labour's glengarrys/bunnetts are now officially on a shoogly peg!
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Tories fail to take my constituency! SNP vote up 4% and on an increasing trend every election; whether UK, Euro or Scottish election!
I'm in no way depressed!
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Oh well.. Thanks to Scottish Labour voters it looks quite possible that we're in for another five years of economic mayhem. I hope Gordon rewards them with increased benefits.
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Preening and beating one's chest is not attractive in a politician but would one expect anything more from the likes of Gray or Murphy? I was happy to see Mr. Salmond behave with humor and graciousness. The SNP increased its overall vote by a nice number but not enough. On to coming elections.
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Good to see you all awake, we lost a dinosaur and I have never been so happy. It shows us that when those we elect take us for granted, it is our duty to show them the door. Even better the window, preferably a very high window!!!
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The SNP has increased its share of the vote, again. That Westminster polling doesn't deliver a proportional number of seats is another tale, true for all the parties. (I wonder if anyone would give us figures of nos. of seats based on a proportional voting result?)
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That Labour have such a grip on Scotland, even given that the dynamics of this poll made that so much more likely, is scary. For a corrupt organisation, they indeed have skill in organising. That's promising that the people of Scotland are so good at that. If we clean out the corrupt part...
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8. Sgian Dubh
"It's interesting to see Murphy already trying to attack the SNP for next years Scottish elections, a policy that may well bite him in the ass if Labour are able to cobble together some form of alliance to remain in power."
The fury in England if Labour should manage to cobble together a coalition government would be hard to imagine. It would go a long way towards doing what we haven't managed.
I don't really expect that to happen but it would be interesting.
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I would also be interested to know what the results look like when England's constituencies are seen alone. Would the Tories have an overall majority in England?
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23. eye_write
England Results after 381 of 533
Con 232 Lab 122 LD 27
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And now an English Green MP. Are they beginning to catch up with us?
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Re. 23 eye_write
From the looks of this site's election map, England is blue -- especially the south. With about 130 seats yet to declare south of the border, the tories need just a couple of dozen more for an overall majority in England-only constituencies. UK-wide, I reckon they're going to be a handful of seats short of a majority, suggesting Cameron could well go for minority rule. Add in support from the eight DUP seats and he might just be able to hold it together. I wouldn't advise the SNP to help prop them up, even on an issue-by-issue basis; that would simly hand ammunition to a newly vocal Scottish (branch) Labour party.
The political picture could hardly be more different between Scotland and the rest of the UK (NI being a law unto itself as always), and that bodes for very interesting times to come in the run-up to Holyrood 2011. I didn't expect Scotland to remain quite so Labour loyal as this, but you can never underestimate the anti-tory fear factor due to memories of the Thatcher years.
Folk did their duty in making a last stand against the blue wave, but I think the nation needs to take a long hard think about where to go next. We obviously don't see eye-to-eye with our neighbours, and they clearly get more say than we do.
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24. oldnat
So with 267, 9 more as it now stands, they reach majority in England, but are still 47 short for majority in Westminster.
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26. uilleam_beag
Indeed. However, with a Lib-Lab coalition the SNP and Plaid MPs would be crucial to getting legislation passed, on an issue by issue basis. Brown 'has not conceded defeat'...
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Interestingly, Cameron has said that 'Brown has lost his mandate to govern'. Mundell, sole Conservative MP in Scotland, has disputed that the Tories have 'no mandate to govern in Scotland' though. They can't have it both ways.
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"More, Plaid are down in Wales, SNP up in Scotland."
But up a seat!
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29. eye_write
But they'll dam well try!
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And, just for fun, Sterling doing the Dead Cat Dance
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23. eye_write
They almost always do.
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Ouch, 90 seats to go, with the tories needing just 50-odd more. A lot of those undeclared constituencies are in the Conservatives' heartland, though.
Point of interest: how come the whole of Scotland except Argyll & Bute are able to declare their results in a good and timely fashion, yet half of London is still counting? I'd have thought carrying out a count in areas like Orkney&Sheland or na h-Eileanan an Iar would be far more logistically taxing than Finchley&Golders Green, but obviously I'm being a bit daft.
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26. uilleam_beag
"From the looks of this site's election map, England is blue -- especially the south. "
That isn't as simple as it looks (although heaven knows we'll get blamed if Labour hangs on). You get a better picture if you look at the proportional map. Labour has also hung on to a lot of seats in all the metropolitan areas including London.
And their hold on North England is almost as solid as in Scotland. That won't keep the people in England from saying that it's all Scotland's fault. Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault.
With several constituencies still out the SNP vote is 482,823 which is up from 412,267 in the last GE. Not as much as anyone hoped but still a solid rise to build on for the all-important Holyrood election.
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May I be among the first to congratulate the BBBC and the Scottish media in general on their election win.
What a great disservice you have done the Scottish people.
You have spun and obfuscated so well on behalf of your masters.
You ,of course , will not suffer the cuts in salary or jobs that others will suffer, you will be paid from the public purse as will all those lovely MPs who over claim and fudge their expenses.
No difficulty putting food on your tables eh?
And when you retire - guess what - we get to pay for that too!
I cannot believe that the Scottish people are daft enough to tolerate the TV tax .
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It would appear that in my constituency the Lib Dem vote switched to Lab, I suspect in an attempt to keep the Tories out. The SNP had a tiny increase of 0.2%. I'm truly shocked that we returned our incumbent MP, people obviously didn't check the 'theyworkforyou' website on this guy, and I'm sure he won't be the only one thats been returned like this.
I really am genuinely surprised that so many Scots reverted to type and voted Labour in an attempt to reject the Tories, for some reason I thought that this time it might be different.
Two things:
1. Scots clearly backed Labour to keep the Tories out, this will probably fail, especially if Clegg refuses to work with Brown.
2. Scots still believe that voting SNP at a Westminster election is largely a wasted vote, "better to back Labour as they'll be in power" thinking prevails.
Perhaps the Scots electorate will realise the opportunity missed when it's too late, now there is a hung parliament more SNP MP's could have done Scotland a greater service than propping up a Labour party that is clearly going to find it extremely difficult to hold onto power.
They may even find that there MP's become dare I say it, irrelevant, the word that appears to have worked so well for them at this election.
Now all we can do is sit back and reap the whirlwind from what I reckon is the most likely outcome, a Tory minority government.
Now thats done, back to governing Scotland as best we can at Holyrood under the cuts to come from Westminster, and making sure the Scots electorate understand there is another way in 2011.
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30. Cash Hughes
Plaid, of course!
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By the way ,how are the postal fraud investigations going?
I am most interested to know.
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#35 GrannieAnne,
Oh, I know it's not that simple. I don't mean it's a total wipeout, but t . Across England, the tory vote now stands at just over 40pc compared to 27pc for the red-tories. In the Southeast and East Midlands the blue vote is pushing 50pc with Labour beaten into a pretty poor third. The North has voted more along the loyalty lines of Scotland, but the Northeast is the only part of England where the tory vote is below 30pc (going by the results so far), and even there there is almost a 7-point swing to the right.
PS I think it's just you and me left now. I have the excuse of being in a different time zone - are you an early riser or did you push all the way through the night? ; )
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Oops, I spoke too soon. Folk mut have been away getting their brekkie!
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In the past I have, quite deservedly, been criticised for my bad spelling but let’s see how my arithmetic is. 20% of the Scottish population vote SNP therefore around 80% of the population must be voting for parties who do not have independence on their agendas. Interesting….
PS. This is my fourth contribution for the anoraks out there that like to check these things.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Scotland once again sends an emphatic rejection of the tories, these results could also play right into the SNP hands come the next Holyrood vote as the people of Scotland do not want to be governed by the conservative party.
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morning chums... when does the 2011 campaign begin?
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So the voting pattern is different in Scotland? Why are people surprised that Scots have voted for a Scot when it's been the first opportunity to do so in living memory?
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Well here we go. If ever an election showed a broken democracy this one does. Four countries, four different ways of goverance. England goes Tory but may not get to run the UK. Labour wins Scotland but may, or may not, rule the UK. N.I. is different to everyone and Wales almost follows England. So there cannot be a UK government that has a clear mandate in every UK country. I wonder if we can now go to some superpower, (or other), that has a history of invading undemocratic countries and giving then democratc governments - whether they want democracy or not?
Whar's yer leaders debate noo?
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A triumph of voting out of fear of the Tories over hope for a better deal.
Unfortunately it's going to backfire as we'll still get the Tories but we won't have a greater number of SNP MP's looking out for Scotland's interests. Labour does not have Scotland as it's priority, power at Westminster is.
Will this awaken the electorate to self-determination?
If it does I regret that this realisation will only come through the pain of the forthcoming months to years of minority Tory rule without a stronger voice at Westminster defending Scotland.
Will the Lib Dems now back the referendum since their dream of becoming a bigger player in the establishment has fallen short of expectations?
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Good morning Nationalists...where are your 20 'Champions'? As expected , nowhere. The Scottish people have returned a clear verdict - the vast majority want to stay in the Union.
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Wasn’t Alex Salmond aiming for 20 champions rather than 20%?
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So Greatex got in. Anyone know if there is any movement on the Leakygate front? It must be lonely being a Scottish Tory MP. Might work out well for him if Cameron gets to be PM and appoints him Govenor General.
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#42. At 07:17am on 07 May 2010, "Sweatysock2 wrote:
In the past I have, quite deservedly, been criticised for my bad spelling but let’s see how my arithmetic is. 20% of the Scottish population vote SNP therefore around 80% of the population must be voting for parties who do not have independence on their agendas. Interesting….
PS. This is my fourth contribution for the anoraks out there that like to check these".
Your arithmatic's fine - it's your reasoning that's suspect. Voters choose a party for diverse reasons, they hardly ever agree with every aim, or party election promise, of the party they vote for.
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Thick as mince! The Scottish people deserve Labour they vote Labour because they've always voted Labour and so have all the generations of their family. It's like Deliverence the movie! And to see that weasel Lord Haw Haw Murphy smarming for the camera...
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Once again Scotland has dropped the ball when it comes to voting. When our neighbours in England are busy changing the colour from Red to Blue we in Scotland are retiring into our shell and continue voting Red when in fact we should be voting Yellow. The SNP are the only party that can now have any influence at Westminster when it comes to Scottish affairs.
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Imagine how stupid Glaswegians would be if they were run by a party who syphoned of there money into organisations headed by members of said party. The leader of that party having connections to drugs and organised crime. Wegies knowing about this and voting the same party in.... Just as well it's imagined and not real they would look really thick.
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Misrule Britannia
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Six seats?! Not a single gain?!
The most unpopular government in decades and the SNP couldn't win even one more seat?!
Only the detached nationalists could see this as anything but a humiliating failure for the SNP.
And as for this so-called rejection of the Conservative party, the "massively-popular" (sic) SNP only beat the "hated" (sic) Tories by 3% of the popular vote, who also saw an increase in their vote.
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I had to pass the village betting shop to go to the poll. I met an old village worthy heading back to the betting shop from the poll. I greeted him with,"Aye Tam! Wha did ye vote fir". Tam stubbed out his fag-end in the wee box thing outside the betting shop door and said, "Ah cudna mak ma mind up, Boab, sae Ah permed ony ane frae seeven wi ma lucky pen". I had to laugh.
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I hope there's no whinging in the labour ghettos when food is taken from the weans mouths to pay for nuclear weapons.
You've got what you voted for.
I see shares in John Lewis have rocketed as the new feeble forty one head to town.
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#49
No, the vast majority didn't want the Tories.
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#49 - "The Scottish people have returned a clear verdict - the vast majority want to stay in the Union."
No, the verdict is that the vast majority don't want to be ruled by the tories. Not the same thing.
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#46. At 07:55am on 07 May 2010, paulhandley wrote:"So the voting pattern is different in Scotland? Why are people surprised that Scots have voted for a Scot when it's been the first opportunity to do so in living memory"?
Perhaps that would be because they didn't. They ALL voted for someone to represent ONLY their constituency at Westminster. The Candidates all have passports that say they are British and only in my constituency did they get the chance to vote for the current prime Minister. BTW - I did not vote for him. I wager the real truth is the most likely reason to vote the red tories was to keep the Blue Tories out.
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#49
I voted SNP in every previous election except this one.
Like many people I know I am concerned about the rise of anti Semitism within the party and their support for individuals and groups with links to Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism.
I want an independant Scotland but as long as the SNP continue down this path they will not get my vote.
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I think my reasoning is fine and I know that my arithmetic is right. The Salmond National Party is always banging on about independence and only 20% of the Scottish population voted for them.
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#63. At 08:48am on 07 May 2010, Harry Stottle wrote:
"I voted SNP in every previous election except this one.
Like many people I know I am concerned about the rise of anti Semitism within the party and their support for individuals and groups with links to Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism.
I want an independant Scotland but as long as the SNP continue down this path they will not get my vote."
What!!? That's a first. Can you elucidate a bit? I am genuinely interested as to where you draw that conclusion.
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#64. At 09:05am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2 wrote:
"I think my reasoning is fine and I know that my arithmetic is right. The Salmond National Party is always banging on about independence and only 20% of the Scottish population voted for them."
Well, let's see what your powerful reasoning is based on. Can you point to anything in the LabLibCon manifestos (I'm sure a bright spark like you has read all three) that states that this election was on any level a referendum on the Union?
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#63
Presumably you didn't vote for Labour, the Tories, the LibDems, BNP or UKIP, then.
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#57 Reluctant-Expat
"And as for this so-called rejection of the Conservative party, the "massively-popular" (sic) SNP only beat the "hated" (sic) Tories by 3% of the popular vote, who also saw an increase in their vote."
Good morning, R-E. Starting a new blue Tweedle era with two misquotes instead of the one with which you ended the red Tweedle era, I see.
Yes, it's sad to see the Scottish electorate clinging to their abusive nurse, aided and abetted by the MSM in general and BBC Scotland in particular, for fear that your beloved blue Tweedles will take them back to a Thatcherite future.
The numbers at the time of writing look as though only a blue Tweedle minority or blue/yellow Tweedle coalition will be possible. Gloat while you can in your beloved Greenwich for that will not play well in the 2011 Scottish general election.
In the meantime, we'll have lots of harmless fun with the BBC court action continuing and England seeming to have voting irregularities which make individual re-runs likely all over that nation. I for one am certainly looking forward to hearing what the Commonwealth observers have to say about these latest triumphs of democracy.
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So, once again, the turkeys in Glasgow have voted for Christmas. Well, good luck to you folks. I'll say nothing about postal votes or the other election debacles at least until investigations have been conducted and thoroughly whitewashed.
On another note: as we know, pre-election polling showed 40% of Scots willing to vote for independence if the Tories got in. With 43% against and the rest undecided, we'll just have to wait and see what this next year brings. It wasn't going to be a good year, no matter who won - I just didn't realise that everybody was going to lose!
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35. GrannieAnne
"Everything, according to the English, is Scotland's fault."
That is blatant racism, Grannie Anne. And it's hopelessly wrong. Do not spout it in Scotland's, mine, or nationalists' name. It sounds bigoted and it drags the self determination cause back decades.
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congratulations to the BBC and all their colleagues in the media of Scotland , enjoy your celebrations.
so we're back to the feeble 50 mark 2.
surely the fact that England voted one way and we voted the other will not be missed by the political classes in England never mind the man in the street.
how much longer will the English keep Scotland in the union no matter how much oil or green energy we can produce?
I am sure you must be over the moon that putting the fear of god into people has worked once again!
Sid
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Scotland now has to accept responsibility for having voted for a Labour Govt whereas England and Wales and N Ireland obviously wanted a Tory one.
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Morning.
A terrible night for Labour, soundly hammered in England.
Gordon, where is the Labour government you promised Scotland ?
Scotland mugged again.
So what should Eck do ? Nothing for now. Let Brown struggle on until total collapse. Those figures in England show a massive Tory lead.
Bring on that referendum, but not just yet.
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"64. At 09:05am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2 wrote:
I think my reasoning is fine and I know that my arithmetic is right."
In fact, although your arithmetic is ok, your reasoning is absolutely not fine. It is a classic syllogism. It is based on the false premise that people voting in a UK general election prioritise the independence issue over other issues. In fact, now that we have Holyrood and the possibility of a referendum coming via that route (if the 'democratic' Labour, Tory and LibDems ever allow the people to vote in one), people are probably less likely to prioritise independence in a Westminster election.
Here, we have seen anti-Tory folk memory (fuelled by a typically-negative Labour campaign) winning out in Scotland and manifesting itself in big Labour votes.
Another syllogism for you, since you like them: might begin something along the lines of "42% of Scots voted Labour..." and end along the lines of "all Scots support all Labour policies..."
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I have never contributed before, but it is with great sadness that i see scotland has voted overwhelmingly for the status quo of labour, is this a way of rejecting the tories, or is this just tribal politics? As far as i can see there is not an original thinker amongst them, indeed it was embarrassing to listen to the likes of Ian Gray and Douglas Alexander through the night. I am not a nationalist but i have seen a great increase in scottish optimism and genuine progress under a minority nationalist administration working for the good of scotland. Contrast this with scottish labour bowing down to pressure from the southern command. Why do people believe that labour will champion scotland now when they have categorically failed to do so for the last 13 years?
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Well ambi I do know that independence was mentioned more than once in the Salmond National Party manifesto which seems to have only inspired 20% of the Scottish population. What happened to Alex's promised 20 champions? Like so many of his hollow promises me thinks.
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Looking to the future rather than who did or should have voted one way or the other the governance of Scotland looks like being an interesting business. Mr Cameron has clearly failed to secure a working majority of Tory MPs, while Mr Brown is kept afloat only by the tribal loyalty of the Scottish Central Belt voters. Neither can form a viable government without the co-operation of the Liberal Democrats, whether by means of an "understanding" of some kind between Messrs Cameron and Clegg, or a Lib-Lab coalition. Time will tell and we have of course been down the latter road in Holyrood. For Scotland it would be business as usual.
A Tory administration on the other hand is going to cause Labour real problems. Thus far Mr Gray has been kept afloat by support from Westminster and the active intervention of Mr Murphy. However what will the main party of opposition in Holyrood do with that support withdrawn and Mr Gray compelled to defend Labour's remaining heartland against a Tory-led government in Westminster? Can Mr Gray credibly fight on two fronts?
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Wonderful comment from some journo talking to the BBC. She said that if Labour and the LibDems form a govt it will be a "coalition of the losers"
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49. deducted4points
"Good morning Nationalists...where are your 20 'Champions'? As expected , nowhere. The Scottish people have returned a clear verdict - the vast majority want to stay in the Union."
Oh no!!! I missed the referendum!!!
Oh wait, i didn't - the unionists won't have one.
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I'm not too despondent.
This is the absolute stripped-back base of the SNP vote, without any support from ALL of the media and biased criticism from much of it, fear mongering about a possible Tory government, constant accusations of irrelevance by the other three parties and we still manage to get the second biggest share of the Westminster vote in Scotland and increase that vote since last GE. Depressing that a party hack like Curran is replacing John Mason and Flipper Murphy has frightened his constituents into line, but at least it's almost a certainty the we won't have his royal creepiness as SoS.
Lots of potential in the next 12 months I reckon.
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What a lot of misunderstanding about Scottish voting in a Westminster election. There is nothing shocking or frustratingly difficult to fathom about the result. Neither is it so fatal.
Folk had the chance to show their support for the SNP such that many more seats were won but, although the SNP vote increased, they did not. They didn't see the SNP as a challenger to the 'big two' London based parties. It's not entirely difficult to appreciate. They didn't think there was 'enough SNP' to do that job. So faced with Tories, they reverted to Labour.
You could say they had a point, with the FPTP system a great many fewer SNP seats were so up for grabs as were Labour ones. But you and I know they were wrong, that SNP MPs even not in vast numbers, can influence the balanced parliament for the g,ood of Scotland. But the voters really didn't get that without having it demonstrated to them. And now we could have that chance.
What better use of the status quo than to show the voters how it doesn't work for them. My point is voters need shown. They cannot be relied upon to grasp ideas and trust them. And that, because they are mainly average Joes, is understandable.
The mistake we nationalists are going to make, if we don't stop, is to absolutely slate the average Labour voter, like stroppy teenagers hitting out because we didn't get our way. If we do that we are our own worst enemy. We will lose all credibility, I guarantee you. The key to success in Scotland is to understand your voters, not berate them - look at Gordon Brown's dismissal of Gillian Duffy. We merely need to explain, demonstrate and concentrate to educate, really, these voters. Of course it can be done.
This is not difficult stuff. Get your chins up. This election result has not damaged us in any way, we have increased our vote, in very difficult electoral system circumstances. Be glad, we are still on the right road. This coming Westminster parliament looks like it is going to present opportunities for the nationalist parties. Hopefully in the power-divvying horse trading, the biggies will take their eye of the small nat parties, they haven't increased their nos. of seats after all.
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69. D1senfranchised
Stop calling them turkeys. It sounds like the ravings of an insulting brat. And reflects very badly on the nationalist movement.
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Well, Salmond is saying that the SNP only gained a greater share of the vote "in key seats", so this is worth examining to see if there was a swing to the SNP across Scotland as the nationalists would have us believe.
Scotland overall: 0.1% SNP -> Labour
SNP seats (this bit shouldn't take long):
Moray: 0.5% swing SNP -> Con
Banff and B: 10.7% SNP -> Con!
Angus: 2.2% Con -> SNP
Perth & N Perth: 2.9% Con -> SNP
W Isles: 1.2% Lab -> SNP
Dundee East: 1.8% Lab -> SNP
Key Lab seats (too many to go through them all):
Dundee West: 2.5% SNP -> Lab
Glenrothes: 6% SNP -> Lab
Glasgow East: Not listed due to by-election. However as Labour easily won = lots% SNP -> Lab
.
.
Ah, I have too much to do to complete the list! I'll let someone else round them all up. Site is here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/7.stm
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It would seem obvious to me as a nationalist, a cause to which I attach some importance, to NOT insult potential voters, whom it is desirable to attract on board! It's really so basic. There's no excuse for not getting it. Frustration doesn't excuse being destructive to this. Don't let yourself and your country down. The future generation is still relying on us.
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#76. At 09:50am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2 wrote:
'Well ambi I do know that independence was mentioned more than once in the Salmond National Party manifesto which seems to have only inspired 20% of the Scottish population. What happened to Alex's promised 20 champions? Like so many of his hollow promises me thinks."
You'll be in favour of a real referendum on the issue then?
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71. sid_ts63 spouts;
"how much longer will the English keep Scotland in the union no matter how much oil or green energy we can produce"?
The only thing you're producing is methane of the mouth. The English are doing no such thing. It is the Scottish electorate who have overwhelmingly voted and they are not interested in your separatist agenda; in fact the LD's have more relevance in this election than the SNP.
5. Vakov2000's hissy fit; "Imagine how stupid Glaswegians would be if they were run by a party who syphoned of there money into organisations headed by members of said party. ........... Just as well it's imagined and not real they would look really thick.
Your and other rants against Glaswegians, (as well Granny Nats anti -English rant) hardly endears us to the alumni that are the Nationalists. PS - spelling and grammar - "syphoned of there money". Try; siphoned (or syphoned) off their money. Naughty boy. Go to the back of the nationalist thicky class.
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57. Reluctant-Expat
"Six seats?! Not a single gain?!"
Mainatained six seats?! Increased share of the vote?!
"The most unpopular government in decades and the SNP couldn't win even one more seat?!"
After being frozen out of the campaign for the notoriously polarized Westminster election, with the tories resurgent against the most unpopular government in decades - they didn't drop their number of seats?!
"Only the detached nationalists could see this as anything but a humiliating failure for the SNP."
Only the most demented unionist could see this as anything but a failure by the unionists to humiliate the SNP.
"And as for this so-called rejection of the Conservative party, the "massively-popular" (sic) SNP only beat the "hated" (sic) Tories by 3% of the popular vote, who also saw an increase in their vote."
1 seat, you've only got 1 seat....
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66. Ah, give it up. You're barely convincing yourself.
If the SNP returned their 20 MPs or more, you lot would be jumping up and down claiming it demonstrated booming support for independence.
You've been saying exactly that since the SNP got their one-seat majority in Holyrood.
Well, they didn't win their 20. They didn't even win one solitary extra seat and only polled a few % above the Tories overall.
In fact, there was a nationwide swing (albeit very small but one nonetheless) away from the SNP and a massive one in Salmond's own constituency.
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76. Sweatysock2
Goodness. Not really. On prior polling the SNP could have gained that many seats. So they did not. Still better to have tried, as it was possible, if ambitious. Plus a Westminster election is not a forum for achieving independence, it can only be achieved via referendum. So it would have been entirely foolish to campaign on that ticket. None of the other parties campaigned on preventing it. The time for putting that argument to the people as part of a campaign, is when they can vote on it.
We cannot therefore gauge support for independence based on this Westminster poll. It was fought on other variables, and an independence referendum question must be focused on just that and be unambiguous to stand. The UN stipulates that.
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Could this just be a warm-up for the UK general election 2010 proper?
With the Court of Session yet to rule fully on the leader debate issue, could the ECHR eventually order a complete re-run in Scotland? Equally, with all the polling station irregularities being reported on the BBC and Sky could the UK Supreme Court (or the ECHR) order a re-run in England?
Will all the lock-out, lock-in and running out of ballot paper issues at English polling stations, did anyone notice this gem from Brent Central on the indiviual constituency pages: "07:32 The BBC journalist at the Brent Central count reports that a polling station in the Willesden Green area did not have the correct ballot papers for 90 minutes after opening, meaning constituents there were unable to vote during that time. The Liberal Democrat team at the Brent Central count told the BBC journalist that the mistake has caused a dip in turnout this year."
I can imagine realistic excuses for running out of ballot papers at the end of the day, but to open the polls 90 minutes later because you had no ballot papers at all looks, as Wilde would have said, like carelessness.
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Two possible chinks of light. We may get rid of Brown as PM and we may get rid of Murphy as Scottish Secretary (please god).
Possibly another if Brown manages to get a coalition - that the English are going to be even less happy with Scottish Labour MPs dictating English policy and depriving them of a Tory Government.
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The nationalist seem even more prickly than usual this morning with any dissenting voices.
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49. deducted4points
None of the Scottish voters were voting on whether to stay in the Union.
But you like that 'result' so much I assume you would happily support having such a referendum? It would be fair and unbiased mind you, would you cope?
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Disappointing night for the SNP, But it could have been worse. 6 Seats, same as last time.
It would appear the message the Scots needed to vote Labour to keep the Tories out got through to people, even though there is no truth in that message. We’ll now have a Tory Government and Scotland voting for Labour has NOT prevented it. Sad really, basic arithmentic would have told anyone that, but the BBC and the media in Scotland have allowed this message to be pushed unchallanged.
A few points for analysis:
Despite te election being rigged in terms of coverage and the TV debates designed to disenfranchise the SNP, the swing from the SNP to Labour in Scotland was only 0.1%
The SNP, even in such difficut conditions, increased it’s share of the vote, from 18% to 20%.
The SNP received 6 seats from 487000 votes.
Labour got 41 from just over 1000000 votes.
The Lib Dems got 10 seats from 465000 votes.
The DUP got 8 seats from from only 170000 votes.
And look at the Lib Dems in the UK, their seat share versus their popular vote is very unfair. It all underlines the need for electoral reform, which we won’t now get under the Tories!
Congratulations to the Media in Scotland. You’re served the people yet again. I hope you are proud.
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SNP win five rural seats and just one urban seat.
Yeah, there's a nationalist mandate.
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83. Reluctant-Expat
"a swing to the SNP across Scotland as the nationalists would have us believe"
Not a 'swing'. An increase in the nationalist vote. It's a straightforward statement.
(There was an increased turnout this time round. You will have factored that into your 'nat-bashing'?)
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Well, coming from Carlisle, not totally surprised with the news that we've gone Tory for the first time since 1964.TBH- they ran a decent campaign here and Labour just took us for granted- like many of the northern English cities.
But one thing is very clear- Scotland does not want independence from the UK. Face facts here SNP folk, you had the perfect opportunity with the UK in a total economic mess and the SNP blew it.If they had won 25-26 seats , the case for a referendum would have been overwhelming- they'll be lucky to get 10!!. Until the SNP can win a majority of Westminster seats, the following will remain in place:
Scotland is not a country, it is a Kingdom within the UK-just like England
The Scottish flag is not recognised internationally,same with England
Edinburgh is not an international capital- there are no embassies or ambassadors.
There is no Scottish armed services & the banking & communications systems remained controlled by London
People do not travel abroad as Scottish as this is not recognised, they travel as UK citizens.Most of the world sees vistors from the UK as English even though this is inacurate
The UK decides who can come and stay in Scotland
Like it or not- the Uk is dominated by England as they are 85% of the population
Now and listen very closely SNP fans- if the Scottish people want to change this then they would have voted for you. BUT THEY DIDN"T- WHY, BECAUSE THEY GET A DAMMED GOOD DEAL AND THEY DONT WANT TO RISK LOSING IT.
I know this because we see it all the time in Carlisle.We were Scottish once you know, although even with all the goodies you get (maybe not for much longer)there is no desire for us to be run from Edinburgh, even though it's much closer than London.Ask yourselves why?
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"82. At 10:00am on 07 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
69. D1senfranchised
Stop calling them turkeys. It sounds like the ravings of an insulting brat. And reflects very badly on the nationalist movement."
I didn't call them turkeys. I used a metaphor, which is in common usage and doesn't actually imply that anyone is a turkey. Think about which part of the metaphor contains the comparison.
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#81 eye-rite
morning, fully agree we also saw this after the Glasgow north bi-election.
all this proves is a lot of people need even more persuading not slagging them off.
we all need to remember unlike all the contributors on here the majority of the voting public either cannot or don't want to access the Internet and the only information they get is from the telly or the papers and we know what they were telling them day in day out.
be afraid be very afraid.
we must also remember the statement last week from the ex labour spin doctor --fear is always the emotion that wins through! and she wasn't wrong was she!!
Sid
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Good morning all.
Analysis of last nights Scottish result is required. As expected we have had Unionists in all parties claiming that somehow the result is an endorsement of the Union - it is nothing of the sort of course.
There is some analysis over at Newsnet Scotland
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81. eye_write
"The mistake we nationalists are going to make, if we don't stop, is to absolutely slate the average Labour voter, like stroppy teenagers hitting out because we didn't get our way."
It's not about slating them.
It's about asking questions of them.
Why do they want to see the party who has accelerated the divide between rich and poor remain in power, for example?
This is a a fact, it is known. Yet they vote for more of the same.
Who is the arbiter of how those questions are asked and the manner in which they are asked? Beause the media aren't doing it, and the SNP can't get their word out in the media either.
The 'nationalist movement' just had it's main political machine in an election and couldn't make the point. So, is policing the opinions comments of others in public forums a help or a hindrance as far as getting the debate opened up?
I think most here aware that the Holyrood election is actually the bigger prize, but for every person that's happy to see the share of the vote go up, there may be another who is disheartened that they voted SNP to no avail. Just about having a campaign here might not have been enough, the footsoldiers can't do it all.
If you want people to stand up to their fears then softly, softly doesn't work.
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#86. At 10:12am on 07 May 2010, amicusalba wrote:
"Your and other rants against Glaswegians, (as well Granny Nats anti -English rant) hardly endears us to the alumni that are the Nationalists. PS - spelling and grammar - "syphoned of there money". Try; siphoned (or syphoned) off their money. Naughty boy. Go to the back of the nationalist thicky class."
I think you mean "Your and other rants against Glaswegians, (as well Granny Nats anti -English rant) hardly endears the alumni that are the Nationalists to us." Just as inelegantly expressed but with the virtue of actually meaning something
To the back of the Unionist remedial class for you.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
86. amicusalba
Yes, we must not charge the English with anyting. The system offers them scant little democracy aswell. It is the British establishment that is the problem and the spanner in the works here. Calling them English would be insulting the English. Word disquiet to reference the British establishment, or we are as racist as the BNP.
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92. Sweatysock2
Yeah, but they will chill :-)
High hopes and all that. Least they care.
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It looks as though the Labour Party are being sidelined by Clegg who has kept his promise to go with party with the largest share of the vote and the largest number of MPs.
It's going to be real interesting to see how the Labour Party in Holyrood will react to events without the backing of a Labour government in Westminster and their propagandist in the Scotland office.
Maybe it's not such a bad outcome for the SNP.
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#86 amicusalba, good morning,enjoy your day,
only two outcomes available.
1. the labour party cling on to power with the help of the Labour mp's elected in Scotland,whilst England voted tory. Will the English public Accept that sitting down, don't think so!!
2. the tory's manage to get a working majority and Scotland is left with the feeble 50 yet again.
Sid
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17. At 04:28am on 07 May 2010, Wee-Scamp wrote:
"Oh well.. Thanks to Scottish Labour voters it looks quite possible that we're in for another five years of economic mayhem. I hope Gordon rewards them with increased benefits."
I have worked all my life and have never been on benefits, nor have any of my immediate family - that is a scandlous remark and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
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Can we have some sensible comments please?
Instead of blaming the Scottish electorate for not voting SNP, why not look at WHY they did not.
I did, but I had no incentive from my local candidate bar a single leaflet. Noone round the doors, noone at railway/bus stations at peak times. If you want votes you need to fight for them, otherwise many people will opt for the status quo.
6 seats when there is an economic crisis and two very unpopular parties to choose from (red/blue), yet only 20% opted for SNP.
Continually blaming everyone else will not change matters. Positive action is required to win people over.
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eye_right
Thank you for kicking rear ends that deserve it!
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96. And that's all you've got, isn't it.
And with an expected LD win still to come, with the Tories hot on their heels, we may see the SNP's 2.2% increase shrink a little and their overall vote closer still to the "loathed and despised" Conservatives.
The LDs have the guts to admit their campaign has been disappointing and I'm very happy you nationalists haven't. Throughly enjoying the implosion.
Please continue.
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Its clear from the results in Scotland that the fear of a Conservative government has encouraged the Labour vote to come out in numbers.
Scotland now faces the dark cloud of English Conservatism. With the Librals cosying up to the tories it looks like a Conservative minority government.
Have the Labour voters in Scotland being paying attention to what english tory mps have being saying about "whinging over subsidized Scots" Cameron will be under huge pressure from his back bencher's to sort us out, by taking away our funding. They hate our SNP government and they will try to discredit them at every turn. Worse Case scenario they may even eventually try to reverse devolution in some areas.
What I can see Cameron doing is offering us fiscal autonomy whilst keeping the oil revenues for england, all in an attempt to make it look like we cant pay our way.
So what now? Labour voters have to start to stand up for Scotland and start to believe in our country. We all have to stick together or we WILL be crushed. To remain loyal to a unionist party which now has no teeth in Westminster or Edinburgh makes no sense. I know you all hold on deasperately to the DREAM that the Labour party are there for the working man and will look after them. Sorry the only way the working man will be now looked after in Scotland is for a Coalition of SNP Liberal and SNP supporters sticking up for Scotland together against the menace of the english conservative party
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95. Reluctant-Expat
"Yeah, there's a nationalist mandate."
No-one claimed that 6 Westminster seats gave an SNP mandate.
Not so much straw man as invisible man.
It's not like there isn't actually a fair amount to talk about after the bizarre result of noone getting what they wanted, but who's going to try if we can't raise it up from sniping and disinformation?
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97. solway
Keep on trolling...
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If the Tories do make immediate cuts that convert recovery into recession, the other parties have the power & opportunity to reject that government. The opposing parties could form a new coalition, or expel the Tories at a general election.
If the Tories wait until two quarters of this year's economic figures are clear, their autumn budget can be better informed.
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82. At 10:00am on 07 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"69. D1senfranchised
Stop calling them turkeys. It sounds like the ravings of an insulting brat. And reflects very badly on the nationalist movement"
Never thought I would ever see anything like this written by eye_write or should it be 'aye_right' - there is hope for democracy yet.
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IX
I
Call a Scottish General Election Now!
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81. At 09:58am on 07 May 2010, eye_write wrote:
"My point is voters need shown. They cannot be relied upon to grasp ideas and trust them. And that, because they are mainly average Joes, is understandable."
Ah back to normal - you had me worried that you actually had some respect for people.
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And Online Ed speeds by with another plug for his little SNP blog.
101. "As expected we have had Unionists in all parties claiming that somehow the result is an endorsement of the Union - it is nothing of the sort of course."
Another nationalist awarding themselves a little too much credibility, methinks.
Again I'll say that if the SNP had won their 20 seats, these same nationalists would be claiming this was absolute and irrefutable proof of booming support for independence. As they have been doing ever since the SNP got their one-seat 'majority' in Holyrood.
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94. At 10:23am on 07 May 2010, MartinOfBothwell wrote:
"The SNP received 6 seats from 487000 votes.
Labour got 41 from just over 1000000 votes.
The Lib Dems got 10 seats from 465000 votes.
And look at the Lib Dems in the UK, their seat share versus their popular vote is very unfair. It all underlines the need for electoral reform"
Hard for anyone to disagree with that
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eye write
Genuine thanks for some thoughtful posts. For what it's worth I recently started reading and sometimes posting on this blog, trying to engage in some kind of rational debate. I genuinely had considered SNP, but based on the dogmatic and sometimes unpleasant posts the type of which you have had the good grace to disown, it didn't happen. Maybe I am naive in thinking that a) people who posts on these blogs are representative of the parties they support and b) any blog is a place for rational conversation!
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Thank goodness it’s all over.
What a waste of four weeks or so of campaigning in Scotland. Status Quo maintained.
Those who voted Labour or Lib Dem now get the unionist UK government they deserve.
Interesting few weeks ahead now, Labour will likely fail to form a government.
The Tories will likely welcome the Libs to the table and hey presto a convenience store government.
The consequences for Scotland will be interesting considering that there are only 6 MP’s who are not controlled by London.
So what will the Labour party do? Revolt and ditch Brown? Search out another leader that will for sure not be a Scot?
Some predictions for 2010/2011:
Scotland see’s savage cuts forced upon them by the Tories.
Labour in Scotland to back the referendum bill once they see what the Tories do and champion devolution max.
English MP’s to raise concerns regarding Scottish Labour MPs voting on English matters.
SNP polling rates and membership to increase on the basis of Tory UK rule
Liberal democrat’s poll stagnates on the basis of the ineffectiveness of their relationship with the Tories in England.
Scotland holds referendum, independence or devolution max approved. Another step achieved towards independence.
Scottish elections sees an increase in SNP vote, decreases in Labour, Tory and Lib Dem vote. Green part and SSP (and SSP clones) increase vote.
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#100 - I see my #100 has been referred. I take it that was you, Ex-pat, disgruntled because you were taken to task? Laughable after the song and dance YOU made about YOUR posts being referred. As the old saying goes, if you cannae take it....
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81. eye_write
Your point is well made re understanding voters. Berating voters is no way to go forward, the SNP campaign did not persuade voters to change. That takes patience and a lot of time. politicians always need to respect the electorate something they have forgotten recently.
However to say the SNP have not been damaged is a more than a little spin. Losing Glasgow East and Dunfermline is not good. It shows voters are happy to make a protest in a by-election but come the election proper they were not convinced. Therefore one possible conclusion must be that the the original result was simply a protest and in no way a conversion to nationalism.
Last night showed that the SNP campaign was a bit of a disaster. If no gains could be made against a worn out Labour government then that is really a disaster. Not to keep the by-election wins given the effort put in was also a disaster. I was in Glasgow last week and in Glasgow East it was obvious that a lot of SNp resource was being applied. Simply this was a missed opportunity for the nationalists.
The vote for champs bit was poorly thought out and just didn't work. They should have campaigned on an Independence platform, challenging voters to either four more years of Gordon Brown or the return of the Tories. Because in reality the only alternative is the SNP in Scotland.
One can only wonder why this was not done and the only conclusion I can come to is that if such a campaign delivered the same result as last night, which opinion polls indicate it would have, then the referendum would have been further away.
However I also feel that the SNP have abandoned the referendum in this parliament anyway. They now they won't win in the current climate.
However all politicians need to respect the view of the electorate and recognise the electorate gave none of them a mandate to work alone. They want coalition government and it is up to the politicians to deliver it.
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Labour’s condundrum now in Scotland is as follows:
1. They have lied to the people of Scotland by telling them that a vote for Labour would stop the Tories.
2. Labour have promised that the Tories will lay waste to Scotland if they take power, which they will.
3. How can Labour in Scotland then maintain their opposition to an independence referendum?
4. How can Labour in Scotland support a switch to PR when it will cost them a lot of Scottish seats and hand them to the SNP and the Lib Dems?
Interesting times ahead in the run up to the Holyrood elections next year. Will Labour fight to maintain a mandateless Tory rule of Scotland?
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where's the ehh ummm "substantial victory?".
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Congratulations to Labour in Scotland, they have been able to mobilise their voters, and no other party has been able to do the same. I think this has been made simpler for them with spectre of "Thatcher" hanging over them, the illusion that Labour might be able to create a coalition so every Labour Mp would be a bulwark against this.
The LibDems, despite being treated as one of the big UK three, has slipped backwards, the Tories despite a lot of media support remain an irrelevance in Scotland. The SNP made tiny advance in share of vote, and lost a seat gained in a by-election.
People vote for a whole variety of reasons and just because they did not vote the way you would hope does not give any excuse to be abusive of them. The people have spoken and that has to be respected, the hard part is actually hearing what it is they have actually said.
Scotland does not want the Tories, but it seems they are going to get them in some form. They did not see the SNP as being the answer at Westminster. I have faith in the people of Scotland, and think they are far more sophisticated in their voting than many people give them credit for, they recognise the difference between FPTP and proportional representation, I think they have and will vote differently at the Holyrood election, but only if the SNP run a more coherent campaign than they just have. Please do not start with the media bias stuff, yes it is there, but it is the world we live in, we have to deal with it and learn how to win against the odds.
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42. Sweatysock2
"In the past I have, quite deservedly, been criticised for my bad spelling but let’s see how my arithmetic is. 20% of the Scottish population vote SNP therefore around 80% of the population must be voting for parties who do not have independence on their agendas. Interesting…."
It is only "interesting" if you are sufficiently detached from reality to imagine independence was a an issue in this election.
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42. At 07:17am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2
49. At 08:04am on 07 May 2010, deducted4points
50. At 08:07am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2
57. At 08:25am on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat
64. At 09:05am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2
76. At 09:50am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2
83. At 10:03am on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat
88. At 10:15am on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat
92. At 10:17am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2
95. At 10:25am on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat
97. At 10:28am on 07 May 2010, solway
Judging by these posts it would be safe to assume that the posters have so far yet to see the consequence of continually backing Labour.
6 months from now under the Tories I suspect that you won’t be crying so loudly for the union.
Was it not obvious from the start that we would end up with a Conservative based government?
When the cuts come, will you be still on this blog voicing support for the union?
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46. paulhandley
"So the voting pattern is different in Scotland? Why are people surprised that Scots have voted for a Scot..."
Do you seriously imagine people vote along ethnic lines? Seems an uncommonly strange notion. And, assuming you refer to Gordon Brown, fewer than 30,000 "Scots" voted for him.
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49. deducted4points
"...the vast majority want to stay in the Union."
You are hearing an answer nobody has given to a question that wasn't asked.
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50. Sweatysock2
"Wasn’t Alex Salmond aiming for 20 champions rather than 20%?"
Explain what is wrong with aiming high. It is surely the only sensible thing to do.
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Now let's see what sort of un-holy alliances will come out of this! It was always going to be decided by our cousins south of the border! I'll laugh loud and long when the LIB jump into bed with the CON, the latter CON being the operative word, and didn't they do well!
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63. Harry Stottle
"Like many people I know I am concerned about the rise of anti Semitism within the party..."
As desperate attempts at a political smear go this one is surely the most pathetic. Is this the sort of thing we can expect from the unionist alliance throughout the Scottish parliamentary election campaign?
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64. Sweatysock2
"I think my reasoning is fine and I know that my arithmetic is right."
Of course you do. But you are hardly the best judge. The glaringly obvious fact is that independence was not an issue in this election. If you don't know what the issues were then you really haven't been paying attention.
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It shows how undemocratic Broon and the British Labour Party are that he would attempt to form a government. Broon wants power at all costs no matter what the cost to anyone this is what motivates him and his party. Robert Mugabe could learn a thing or two from Broon.
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If the liberals form a pact with the Tories and allow sweeping cuts to our public services, I very much see the electorate turning against the Liberals for it.
The Tories had a fair amount of support in Scotland before Thatcher instigated her policies of privatisation and public sector slashing. That ended with her. Nick Clegg might well become a pariah to Scot's voters who will see him as the man who facilitated the Tory's return to power.
Both should be mindful that despite what the the rhetoric says, they will more than likely have to go back to the public before the 5 years is up to stand any chance of consolidating thier positions.
That will be Labour's only chance to sort itself out - let the liberals get in bed with the tories, allow the slashing and burning to begin in earnest and then after the public are furious about it - start thier fight back.
Labour will also need a new leader to do this, this is absolutely unavoidable.
In the meantime, those in Scotland who voted Liberal instead of Labour or Tory will no-doubt rethink thier positions within that time and the net effect could mean more votes for the SNP or Labour as a result.
As demonstrated before - Only crisis affects the voting intentions of Scots. It was moulded after Thatcher and soon it will be Moulded after Cameron/Clegg.
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Surely someone on BBC or BBC Scotland has to get Alec Salmond on record to admit his party's share of the vote (with one seat to declare) is only 2% higher than the Tories, and whatever he thinks of the Tories potentially gaining the keys to Number 10 he can't say that he has any validity to say that he speaks for the people in Scotland to any major degree more than the Tories do.
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The old truths still hold.
Vote Labour, Get Tory. The only benefit to Scotland of last night is that we will finally get rid of the biggest obstacle to Scotland's progress - Gordon Brown and tribal loyalty to him.
It is highly ironic [and wholly bewildering] to hear Labour supporters on BBC Radio's 'Call Kaye' suggesting it's the English who just don't want Brown because he is a Scot and yet those Labour supporters refuse to support a referendum on independence.
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So back to 2005!
No seat changes and the extra votes that the LDs got, from Lab and SNP in 2005, returned home.
I'll just add my support for eye-write's comments.
None of the opposition parties made progress in Scotland. Don't blame the voters. The choice of most Scots was to keep things as they were. Scots are not Conservative (but they are conservative!)
Time to wait and see how the UK deals with its constitutional crisis.
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#64. At 09:05am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2 wrote:
1 - "I think my reasoning is fine".
You think wrong, though.
2 - "and I know that my arithmetic is right".
No. Your working is right, but it is a bit like 2 apples plus 2 bananas makes 4 fruits. It does not make 4 apples or 4 bananas and it, for sure, does not become 4 oranges.
3 - "The Salmond National Party is always banging on about independence and only 20% of the Scottish population voted for them".
Well, first up, there was no Salmond National Party Standing.
Any Nationalist party must always campaign for independence. It's their raison d'être. Now consider that in some constituencies there were many candidates, (seven in Gordon Brown's own constituency), and a voter turnout of, say, 65%. if the seven all were neck and neck, then 10% would win it.
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#50. At 08:07am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2 wrote:
"Wasn’t Alex Salmond aiming for 20 champions rather than 20%"?
You don't think very clearly - do you?
Cameron aimed for more than 297, Brown for more than 252, Clegg for more than 53. That is why we are having a hung parliament. No one got what they wanted- are you really suggesting only the SNP's missed target matters?
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#125 - "Last night showed that the SNP campaign was a bit of a disaster. If no gains could be made against a worn out Labour government then that is really a disaster."
I don't think your conclusion stands up to much analyse and ignores much of what motivates people to vote the way they do.
Labour ran a wholly negative campaign in the last week or so. The Conservatives would scrap the NHS, they would close local schools, they would ban old people from public transport and take away their TVs, they would steal the food out of the mouths of your babies and sell your children into slavery. Some of the claims were ludicrious but some were quite frightening and even plausible. These were the claims that hit home. The Mirror group press (the only newspaper group that stuck with Labour) ran pages and pages resurrecting the spectre of Thatcher. They literaly scared some, or even many, into making a protest vote against a tory government, a government that almost all of the MSM was saying was a certainty.
Yes, the SNP can point to the TV debates, the hostile press and such factors. I think the collapse of the lib dem votes shows the electorate was divided by extremes - those that wanted rid of Brown and those that didn't want a tory government.
There's still every possibility that both sides of these extremes will get exactly what they want.
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#125. At 12:00pm on 07 May 2010, northhighlander wrote:
"However to say the SNP have not been damaged is a more than a little spin. Losing Glasgow East and Dunfermline is not good."
?
Saying the SNP lost Dunfermline is 'more than a little spin '
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#57. At 08:25am on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
1 - The most unpopular government in decades and the SNP couldn't win even one more seat? Only the detached nationalists could see this as anything but a humiliating failure for the SNP.
So tell me why -
The Tory Party aimed for more than 298 seats.
The Labour Party aimed for more than 253 seats.
The Lib Dems Party aimed for more than 54 seats.
Yet none of them reached their targets - that's why we have a hung parliament.
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136. Electric Hermit: "The glaringly obvious fact is that independence was not an issue in this election. If you don't know what the issues were then you really haven't been paying attention."
From http://www.snp.org/node/16946
Mr Salmond added:
“Running through this manifesto is the SNP vision of a new future for Scotland.
“A Scotland that is independent, socially just and economically secure.
“The real alternative to the discredited Westminster system is a fresh, independent future for our nation. And our MPs will work to make sure the people of Scotland can choose this future in a referendum.
You were saying, EH?
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#65. At 09:11am on 07 May 2010, ambi wrote:
"What!!? That's a first. Can you elucidate a bit? I am genuinely interested as to where you draw that conclusion".
I wondered about that too but was able to figure it out.
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Alex Salmond will have to play his cards carefully. He will not want to support any Lab/Lib Dem coalition (even if that appears an unlikely outcome) but won't want to be too eager to decline any overtures from Labour and have the Scottish population think that by declining, he has allowed a Tory government.
Whatever happens, the SNP are a winner despite their relatively dissapointing performance in terms of seats. Just think of the two possible options. A Lab/Lib colaition - what will the English population make of a Lab/Lib coalition propped up by 40 odd Scottish Labour and Lib Dem MPs voting on English business? If the Tories get in, he can play the "what's the point in voting Labour" card and I'm fairly certain it will pay dividends for the SNP in the Scottish elections.
Either way, independence will be well up the political agenda.
Looking at the British scene, if the Tories form a minority government, they should call another election in the next few months and certainly before the public sector cuts start in earnest. Remember, Thatcher only won in 83 because of the Falklands. A year or two from now, Cameron will find it difficult to blame the last lot for all of the cuts and by then we will no doubt have a new Labour leader - someone who will go down better with the electorate in the south of England.
A Lib/Lab coalition is perhaps an outside bet - it is unlikely Clegg and Lib Dems would be forgiven for a long time by much of the electorate for propping up Labour but just think of the prize - PR. Will the Lib Dems get a better opportunity? In the long term, it may be the good move for them.
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#72. At 09:34am on 07 May 2010, Wee-Scamp wrote:
Scotland now has to accept responsibility for having voted for a Labour Govt whereas England and Wales and N Ireland obviously wanted a Tory one.
"Oh! Dear! God! Can you believe this one? Just how many times in history has Scotland suffered a government we never voted in? Whatever makes you come to the strange conclusion that Scotland owes any loyalty whatsoever to the Tory, Labour or Lib Dem parties, all of whom have let Scotland dolwn so many times? No voter anywhere owes ANY party, including the SNP?
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The last result is in, LD hold Argyll & Bute, and the SNP finish on 19.9% of the popular vote, pipping the LDs by 1% but just 2.8% ahead of the Tories.
Lab 42%
SNP 19.9%
LD 18.9%
Con 16.7%
With rumours growing of a Con-Lib deal, the UK government would have 17 MPs in Scotland, compared to Labour's 41 and the SNP's 6.
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123. AusScot
All plausible stuff, but there are other plausible alternatives -
"Some predictions for 2010/2011:
Scotland see’s savage cuts forced upon them by the Tories.
Labour in Scotland to back the referendum bill once they see what the Tories do and champion devolution max."
OR: Labour have their cake and eat it by not backing referendum bill while letting any fallout from Tory rule hurt the the SNP's socttish govt.
"English MP’s to raise concerns regarding Scottish Labour MPs voting on English matters.
SNP polling rates and membership to increase on the basis of Tory UK rule
Liberal democrat’s poll stagnates on the basis of the ineffectiveness of their relationship with the Tories in England."
OR: SNP polling and membership drops for the same reasons people voted Labour at this GE, plus the SNP being seen as unable to protect Scotland from tories. This feedback loop strengthens labour while diminishing snp.
"Scotland holds referendum, independence or devolution max approved. Another step achieved towards independence."
OR: The Labour party slowly begins rebuilding itself for another the next go round of the UK electoral cycle (just like last time), the feeback loop continuing to feeding labour at the expense of the SNP.
THEN: Some years later and it's like stepping back 20 years as the Labour party starts picking up momentum to have another crack at the UK, having replenished itself on Scotland's pain once more.
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#75. At 09:49am on 07 May 2010, scotsvet wrote:
"I have never contributed before, but it is with great sadness that i see scotland has voted overwhelmingly for the status quo of labour".
Welcome! You are not alone in your views. Bear this in mind though, Not a single party met its targets - that's why we face a hung parliament. So, in essence, no one has yet won, and everyone has lost.
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139. jings
"Surely someone on BBC or BBC Scotland has to get Alec Salmond on record to admit his party's share of the vote (with one seat to declare) is only 2% higher than the Tories, and whatever he thinks of the Tories potentially gaining the keys to Number 10 he can't say that he has any validity to say that he speaks for the people in Scotland to any major degree more than the Tories do. "
When we get some form of PR for UK GE's, i'd say fair enough. Till then though, the system is what it is; and the parties relative strength is measured in seats derived from first-past-the-post.
They can't have it both ways at once, any party that wants to be represented in closer ratio to share of the vote can easily champion electoral reform to that end.
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Salmond: "The picture across the UK may be unclear, but it is clear the Tories have has a disastrous night as they have once again been decisively rejected across Scotland."
Lab: 42.0% of the vote.
SNP: 19.9% of the vote.
Con: 16.7% of the vote.
Lab -> 22.1% -> SNP -> 2.8% -> Con
The Tories have been decisively rejected? Only as much as the SNP.
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#76. At 09:50am on 07 May 2010, Sweatysock2 wrote:"
"What happened to Alex's promised 20 champions? Like so many of his hollow promises me thinks".
Have you not been able to work it out yet?
No one met their targets.
Brown did not get a majority, neither did Cameron get a big enough majority to form a government, Clegg got nowhere and the SNP, while increasing their votes share, gained no seats. We have a hung parliament and the only guy who predicted that was Alex Salmond. What are you attempting to either crow about or run down? No one won.
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#83. At 10:03am on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"Ah, I have too much to do to complete the list! I'll let someone else round them all up. Site is here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/7.stm"
So why did you bother?
Labour did not meet their target. The Tories did not meet their target. The Lib Dems did not meet Their target and the SNP did not meet their target. Had you not noticed there was a hung parliament - whoever gets the eventual job will get a poisoned chalice. Over to you Gordon. or David.
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143. Ah, that's just pure spin and you know it, Auld Bob.
Salmond made a huge show of targeting 20 seats and make "Westminster dance to a Scottish jig" and "swing from a Scottish rope".
I don't recall other leaders setting such targets, or so arrogantly. Do you?
Everyone else can see this was a cringing failure. Why can't you have the spine to admit it?
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142. Auld Bob: "Any Nationalist party must always campaign for independence. It's their raison d'être."
I think you and Electric Hermit ("The glaringly obvious fact is that independence was not an issue in this election") need to coordinate your spin.
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#95. At 10:25am on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"SNP win five rural seats and just one urban seat".
What on earth is that supposed to mean? See - it's like this - "Constituency boundaries are determined by the Boundary Commissions (one each for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland). The commissions are required to undertake a general review every 8 to 12 years in order to ensure electoral equality - i.e. that the sizes of the electorates in each constituency are as similar as possible (currently about 70,000 electors. "Source - Westminster Parliamentary Constituencies".
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70. eye_write
"That is blatant racism..."
Nonsense! At worst it is an unfortunate way of expressing the patently obvious fact that the unionists have actively encouraged an anti-Scotland attitude in England. If racism there be, it is the Tory/BLP alliance that is guilty.
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76. Sweatysock2
"What happened to Alex's promised 20 champions?"
Is your problem hearing or is it comprehending. Twenty seats was a target, not a promise.
And is it not sickeningly typical of the depressing negativity of the Tory/BLP alliance in Scotland that they crow about another party's imagined failure rather than address their own highly dubious "achievements".
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155. Reluctant-Expat
"The Tories have been decisively rejected? Only as much as the SNP."
Make up your mind(s?) is it seats via FPTP or non-existant PR that decides UK GE's?
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Cameron is busy giving the Liberal Democrats the rationalisation they need in order to sell out their "principles" in return for a little political power.
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92. Sweatysock2
"The nationalist seem even more prickly than usual this morning with any dissenting voices."
I think they are showing remarkable restraint in the face of some stunningly stupid comments from fanatical unionists.
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95. Reluctant-Expat
"Yeah, there's a nationalist mandate."
A consequence of the plainly anti-democratic electoral system that ideological unionists such as yourself want to retain.
The subtext to all your anti-Scottish ranting is clear. It is a message we have heard before from the British Labour Party's lickspittles in Scotland. That message is that you would rather have a Tory government in Westminster than a socialist government elected by the Scottish people.
The only "winner" in this election is the Tory/BLP alliance which was determined to maintain the corrupt and inept Westminster duopoly at whatever cost to democracy.
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97. solway
"But one thing is very clear- Scotland does not want independence from the UK."
When was the electorate in Scotland asked this question? What was the actual wording of the question?
And how come you are the only one who knew there was a referendum being held?
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#97. At 10:28am on 07 May 2010, solway wrote:
1 - Well, coming from Carlisle".
That's all right, we won't hold it agains you.
2 - not totally surprised with the news that we've gone Tory for the first time since 1964.TBH- they ran a decent campaign here and Labour just took us for granted- like many of the northern English cities".
Nothing new there then?"
3 - "But one thing is very clear- Scotland does not want independence from the UK".
It was a Westminster election under existing rules - No suggestion that it was an Independence Referendum. Voters vote on disparate issues. Independence was not on the agenda this time.
4 - "Face facts here SNP folk, you had the perfect opportunity with the UK in a total economic mess and the SNP blew it.If they had won 25-26 seats , the case for a referendum would have been overwhelming- they'll be lucky to get 10!!. Until the SNP can win a majority of Westminster seats, the following will remain in place":
Actually that is not an option England has 533 seats to Scotland's 59. Consider this, though. The two countries of Scotland and England became a, "United Kingdom in 1603 by the Union of the Crowns. The word KING means to do with the Monarchy.
In 1707, over 100 years later, the same two countries signed a Treaty Of Union. Each then went home to their owncountriesParliament and each passed an, "Act Of Union", to form a joint, "Parliament of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain".
A Treaty is a legal documant and, like any other partnership, either party can recind it.
5 - "Scotland is not a country, it is a Kingdom within the UK-just like England". So you think England a region of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland"? see item 4.
6 - "The Scottish flag is not recognised internationally,same with England. Edinburgh is not an international capital- there are no embassies or ambassadors"
Wanna bet?
- - - - - - -
Consulate General, Edinburgh:
Principal Officer: Dana M. Linnet
Address: U.S. Consulate General Edinburgh, Scotland
3 Regent Terrace
Edinburgh EH7 5BW
Phone [44] (0)131 556 8315
Fax [44] (0)131 557 6023
- - - - - - - - - -
The rest is Bosh!
We get a rotten deal as we subsidise the English people via our contributions to the UK Treasury - Remember England has NO treasury and there are no income figures for England, just for th UK and we are part of that UK - If I am wrong, I'm sure a bright person of your mental stature will prove me wrong WITH REAL GOVERNMENT FIGURES. Like these sample Unemployment figures from last month -
These are the actual numbers, followed by the percentage %
N. Ireland -------- 35,000 --------4.4%
London --------------301,000 -------7.6%
Scotland ----------139,000--------5.3%
North East Eng. ------ 82,000 ------ 6.7
Wales ---- 65,000 ------- 4.7%
Source Office of National Statistics.
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#151 Reluctant-Expat
Jings RE, you are getting worse. Come back when you can count to 59.
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122. weenissy
"Maybe I am naive in thinking that a) people who posts on these blogs are representative of the parties they support and b) any blog is a place for rational conversation!"
"Naive" seems such an inadequate term for somebody whose politics are determined by comments on a blog.
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#120. At 11:32am on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"And Online Ed speeds by with another plug for his little SNP blog".
And why should he not? Just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
"Another nationalist awarding themselves a little too much credibility, methinks".
Told you before - no party made their target. That's why it's a hung parliament.
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125. northhighlander
"However to say the SNP have not been damaged is a more than a little spin. Losing Glasgow East and Dunfermline is not good."
The SNP did not have the Dunfermline & West Fife seat to lose. Once again you demonstrate that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
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126. MartinOfBothwell
"Will Labour fight to maintain a mandateless Tory rule of Scotland?"
The British Labour Party will cling to the union even if that means supporting a Tory government at Westminster.
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128. soosider
"Congratulations to Labour in Scotland, they have been able to mobilise their voters, and no other party has been able to do the same."
Simply untrue. The SNP vote increased.
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139. jings
"Surely someone on BBC or BBC Scotland has to get Alec Salmond..."
Who is Alec Salmond?
Alex Salmond is Scotland's First Minister and, by definition, he speaks for the people in Scotland.
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# 122. At 11:42am on 07 May 2010, weenissy wrote:
"Genuine thanks for some thoughtful posts. For what it's worth I recently started reading and sometimes posting on this blog, trying to engage in some kind of rational debate. I genuinely had considered SNP, but based on the dogmatic and sometimes unpleasant posts the type of which you have had the good grace to disown, it didn't happen. Maybe I am naive in thinking that a) people who posts on these blogs are representative of the parties they support and b) any blog is a place for rational conversation"!
Now you may not like this - but it is the truth. There is much more abuse flung by the Unionist supporters than by the Nationalists. The fact that you seem only to see one side of the abuse indicates you had already made your mind up. Let me ask you a question - Do you think that a Nationalist, who has done their research and knows the truth, should NOT be insulted when some Unionist, who obviously has not done their research, parrots, "You Scots are being subsidised by we English and you are all living on benefits provided by us"? Yet the Nationalists can prove their figures and the Unionist can not? What is your opinion -
1 - Who does the subsidising?
2 - Who keeps harping they do?
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I can't see the Tories giving away their chances to take power to Labour, even if it means sacrificing some of their policies to the LibDems. On the PR system, which the tories don't particularly want, they must know if they don't give way on this it will send the LibDems straight into the arms of Labour. Brown is already beckoning them, so the end result will be that PR will be introduced whether they like it or not. It would be stupid to give this opportunity up.
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It's look like we are going to have to wait for the Tories and the LDs to agree a working agreement but a Con-LD alliance of sorts is looking promising. An elected upper house? Wholesale tax reform? The end of Barnett? Greater powers to local councils?
And this will come with 17 Scottish seats which will wipe out Salmond's 'no mandate' complaint in one sweep.
Reluctant-Expat likes this.
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147. Reluctant-Expat
"You were saying, EH?"
As ever your problem is the shallowness of your thinking. A defect that is aggravated by an obsessive negativity. Given these intellectual constraints it is hardly surprising that even the more obvious nuances of politics are a complete mystery to you. You are simply not capable of comprehending that long-term political goals can exist alongside short- and medium-term campaigns.
In large part it is the pragmatism of the SNP and its leadership which has made them so successful in government. It is the rigid ideological dogmatism of the Tory/BLP alliance that has made them such a pathetically inept opposition. I applaud the former. And I can only commiserate on your personal manifestation of the latter.
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151. Reluctant-Expat
"With rumours growing of a Con-Lib deal, the UK government would have 17 MPs in Scotland, compared to Labour's 41 and the SNP's 6."
Giving a total of 64. When there are only 59 constituencies in Scotland. Remarkable!
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161. Electric Hermit
She said 'English' when blanketly apportioning blame. That's unpleasant and it's racist. And it's an unintelligent approach.
I stand by what I say. Ranting of that order will set the independence cause back by at least a generation, by turning supporters off big style. I should not have to point that out to you.
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#137. At 12:32pm on 07 May 2010, Vakov2000 wrote:
"It shows how undemocratic Broon and the British Labour Party are that he would attempt to form a government. Broon wants power at all costs no matter what the cost to anyone this is what motivates him and his party. Robert Mugabe could learn a thing or two from Broon". All that post proves is you just do not understand the reallity of the matter. It is this. The PM and main cabinet, although not active, are still in office. So while all others become candidates ONLY these people are both. Now, although the Tory Party have won most seats, no one has actually won the election. That's what a Hung Parliament means. So until there is agreement on just whe can form a viable government, (this is done by parliamentary official, party leaders & Her Majesty's advisors), then her Majesty's Prime Minister is Gordon Brown. Unless he resigns, (by telling her Majesty so), or agreement on another person, who could be even from the Lords, is called to form a government by her Majesty, Brown IS STILL PM.
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161. Electric Hermit: "Nonsense! At worst it is an unfortunate way of expressing the patently obvious fact that the unionists have actively encouraged an anti-Scotland attitude in England. If racism there be, it is the Tory/BLP alliance that is guilty."
EH, you have officially lost the plot.
1. How has a unionist party encourage anti-Scotland attitudes in England.
2. What about the SNP and their endless anti-UK/England comments/campaigns/policies? "England stealing our oil", "England stealing our heritage", "London parties" etc.
Get a grip.
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155. Reluctant-Expat
"The Tories have been decisively rejected? Only as much as the SNP."
The FPTP system that unionists prefer works on the basis of seats won, not percentage of the vote. If you want a more democratic system that actually reflects voters' wishes then you will have to give up your devotion to the Tory/BLP alliance.
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Auld Bob and Electric Hermit, why don't you copy your fellow nationalists and go into hiding?
The SNP smugly predicted 20 seats, making Westminster dance a Scottish jig and hang from a Scottish rope.
They failed spectacularly, only beating the Tory vote by a measly 2.8%.
The SNP were nothing at UK level before and they are nothing at UK level now.
Any Scottish fight against Tory cuts will be conducted solely by Labour.
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"Looking on the bright side is the possibility that the Conservatives will agree to introduce the Lib Dems' manifesto proposal to raise the income tax threshold to £10,000" writes Harry Phibbs for ConservativeHome. He suggests that this should be funded by "a stronger start on reducing public spending" rather than taxation, as the Lib Dems are proposing.
Shadow foreign secretary William Hague says cabinet jobs for Liberal Democrats are not "off the table" in negotiations to try to form a government.
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158. Reluctant-Expat
"I don't recall other leaders setting such targets..."
That proves only that your recall is highly selective. Not surprising given the fact that your thinking is all too evidently driven solely by a rather disturbingly fanatical prejudice.
All the parties had lists of target seats. All of the parties had a target total of seats. None of the parties achieved the target total. That is a matter of recorded fact. Denying it is irrational.
A more rational view is that the SNP result, while disappointing from an aspirational point of view, is politically very good for the party. No matter what back-room deals the unionists cook up in London, the outcome cannot do other than reinforce the need for Scotland to have full fiscal autonomy and the genuine democracy that can only be achieved with independence.
In the short-term, this election has been a meagre victory for the Tory/BLP alliance. In the longer term it may well be seen as the tipping point for Scotland's secession from an increasingly crippled union.
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#159. At 2:19pm on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
1 -(Sigh) -"It's their raison d'être", is obviously implied just as, "Labour's",raison d'être, is supposed to be the support of the working classes, ('cept it no longer is), or the Tory's raison d'être is to promote business and the better off. This is NOT the same as their manefesto promises for an election.
2 -"I think you and Electric Hermit ("The glaringly obvious fact is that independence was not an issue in this election") need to coordinate... ...".
Furthermore, where do you get this strange notion I should co-ordinate with anyone? The election was all about seats at Westminster - nothing else - thus all about protecting Scotland from the cuts that the three Westminster party leaders were in competition to see who could promise harder and deeper.
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It's fairly clear that the blame lies with the usual suspects, and none attaches to the SNP who ran a perfect campaign. It is surely a dreadful condemnation of the intelligence of the Scottish people that, in order to keep the hated Tories out, they voted en masse for the hated Labour Party instead of supporting the homely, financially expert and socially brilliant SNP. Still, the support of one in five of the voters was a magnificent achievement.
In addition, the various SNP-supporting analysts on the blog have got it spot on. Everyone is stupid but them. How else can it be explained?
Have I got that right. It seems like a fair summary of the views of people who, in fairness, are much smarter than me.
Wait a minute... my head is clearing. The Munchkins have departed, defeated. But where's Toto?
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EH various: Sit down and have a wee rest. Everyone understands your frustration and disappointment. But you have gone into hyper-drive with machine-gun retorts in all directions which do you and the SNP no good at all. The parties have all accepted the result with dignity. Despite some blind optimism in certain quarters, we got, more or less, what was predicted, and the UK looks likely to have a Con-Lib government. I can live with it, and so should you. Whoever is calling the shots will need our support in some pretty terrifying times. Perhaps we should accept the verdict of the people and give them a chance?
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The parties that would form any Lib-Con UK government were supported by a third of voters in Scotland and have MPs the length and breadth of the country in rural and urban constituencies. Is this going to answer the question about mandate in Scotland?
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The result of the Scottish portion of the election is very interesting - although I am in support of the SNP, I don't share the ire of many of the commentators against those who voted and gave the Labour party a large vote share.
What we witnessed was a pretty uniform Scotland-wide tactical anti-Tory vote. This involved increased majorities for many incumbent parties, and a disciplined vote for whoever would be most likely to keep a tory candidate from taking a seat. You can't blame people for not risking splitting the anti-tory vote.
Even as an SNP supporter, I regard this as intelligent tactical voting on a pretty massive scale, it is not automatically a complete political endorsement for any of the candidates from all of the voters who contributed to their majorities.
The Scottish electorate, in returning no change whatsoever on 2005 have made their verdict clear on where they stand in British politics - Tory government is a river they do not wish to ford.
Now what has to happen, is for the SNP, PC, SDLP, Greens and the Alliance to go into coalition with the Lib Dems and Labour and agree on a two year programme of political and economic reforms to deliver some kind of federal settlement and a new fiscal and economic regime. This is a moment of chance.
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#139. At 12:48pm on 07 May 2010, jings wrote:
"Surely someone on BBC or BBC Scotland has to get Alec Salmond on record to admit his party's share of the vote (with one seat to declare) is only 2% higher than the Tories, and whatever he thinks of the Tories potentially gaining the keys to Number 10 he can't say that he has any validity to say that he speaks for the people in Scotland to any major degree more than the Tories do".
The Westminster elections, unlike the Holyrood elections, are not based upon the share of the votes. They are based upon first past the post and seats won. Thus a party can come a high second in a large number of the full 59 seats and win no seats whatsoever. Another party could come first in just 30 seats and have the most seats in Scotland. Those posters making reference to share of the vote are looking towards the Holyrood elections next year that are under Proportional Representation and thus the share of the votes matters.
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Eye_write various: You are the only Nationalist poster who displays sensitivity, maturity and common sense in the requisite proportions. If you have any influence within the party, please try to make it felt. Yours is the only way forward. Some of the hysteria from the usual suspects, as you pointed out, does no service to the SNP. Please don't feel that respect from me damages your reputation :-). Even the ranks of Tuscany....
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63. Harry Stottle
"Like many people I know I am concerned about the rise of anti Semitism within the party..."
Interesting that the BBC seem to think it's acceptable behaviour in their forums to throw about completely unfounded allegations of anti-Semitism from members of political parties.
For the Unionist media establishment, anything that drags the name of the SNP and the independence movement through the mud seems to be fair game at this time, no matter how low and false it is.
I think it's time for all Nationalists and supporters to let their feelings towards the BBC be clearly known.
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179. In all seriousness, I don't think I have ever read a more pointless, ridiculous and wholly irrelevant response.
For you to so bizarrely struggle to argue that independence was not core to the SNP election campaign, in the face of Salmond saying precisely the opposite, only goes to demonstrate that the SNP's stunning election failure has hit you hard. What makes your struggle so heartbreaking to witness is that this is not even an issue worth defending.
I shall leave you to suppress your clearly agonising grief.
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178. Reluctant-Expat
"And this will come with 17 Scottish seats..."
Where do you get the "17 Scottish seats"? With all the results in, the blue Tories and the LibDems have a total of 12 seats. Are you suggesting that some of the British Labour Party's members from constituencies in Scotland will be formally going over to the Conservatives?
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178. At 3:48pm on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
1 - "An elected upper house"?
That'll cost us a bob or two.
2 - "Wholesale tax reform"?
Yep! We all like paying more taxes.
3 - The end of Barnett?
And about time too. It might Stop Scotland's subsidising the UK.
4 - Greater powers to local councils?
Yes indeed! That's a given these are the most profligate part of the system.
5 - Reluctant-Expat likes this.
Of course R-E does.Of course R-E does.
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181. eye_write
"Ranting of that order will set the independence cause back by at least a generation..."
Rubbish! It is perfectly in order to point out that the Tory/BLP alliance has sought to exacerbate anti-Scottish attitudes in England while telling Scottish voters that they are irrelevant. Only the unionist alliance would have any reason to want such conduct concealed.
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183. Reluctant-Expat
"What about the SNP and their endless anti-UK/England comments/campaigns/policies? "England stealing our oil", "England stealing our heritage", "London parties" etc."
Again demonstrating your customary lack of comprehension. Scotland's argument is not with England. And it is certainly not with the people of England. Our argument is with the corrupt and anti-democratic British state that you cling to at any cost to the people of both nations.
It is only a matter of time before our southern neighbours join us in recognising that it is not Scotland that their ire should be directed at, but rabid ideological unionists such as yourself.
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185. Reluctant-Expat
"Any Scottish fight against Tory cuts will be conducted solely by Labour."
That would be a novelty. The red Tories have always betrayed Scotland in the past. What rational reason is there to suppose they will be any different this time?
Only a Scottish Labour Party might fight for Scotland's interests. At present there is no Scottish Labour Party. So we have to rely on the SNP to do whatever they can. Because the SNP is the only party which actually represents Scotland rather than a British political clique.
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#183. At 4:08pm on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
1. How has a unionist party encourage anti-Scotland attitudes in England.
They keep preaching that the Scots are subsidised by the English.
They claim that the oil in the North Sea is Not out of Scottish waters.
They claim the English at Westminster are Dominated by Scots.
2. What about the SNP and their endless anti-UK/England comments/campaigns/policies? "England stealing our oil", "England stealing our heritage", "London parties" etc.
Your Number two reply is the perfect example of question you have asked us.
you write, "UK/England", as if the two were exactly the same thing - they are not - except in the minds of such as you.
For starters the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish people are part of the United Kingdom - as are the English but NOT JUST the English.
The Unionist London/Westminster Political Parties ARE UNITED KINGDOM PARTIES NOT ENGLISH PARTIES.
This is a common fault you share with, at thgis very moment, David Cameron who, on TV, has just spoken of The United Kingdom as, "This Country", or did he, like you, really mean only England?
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189. brigadierjohn
"It's fairly clear that the blame lies with the usual suspects, and none attaches to the SNP who ran a perfect campaign."
More nonsense from the ideological unionists who cannot see past the giant blinkers of their fanatical anti-Scottish prejudice. The SNP campaign was seriously flawed in many ways even taking account of the near-insurmountable obstacles put up by the Tory/BLP alliance in collusion with the media in general and BBC Scotland in particular.
I'm sure lessons will have been learned. And the really important campaign is yet to come.
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#185. At 4:13pm on 07 May 2010, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
"Auld Bob and Electric Hermit, why don't you copy your fellow nationalists and go into hiding"?
You really are becoming quite, quite mad. Are you so blind that even when the truth id stated for you several times it fails to enter your brain?
Here it is again, "The Lib Dems said they were aiming to win the UK election - They failed by a long way.
The Labour Party aimed to win a majority in the House of Commons - they faild to do so.
The Tory Party claimed they would win a clear majority and form the next government - they do not have a clear majority.
The SNP aimed to win 20 seats but did not although they did increse their share of votes.
So tell me why are YOU not in hiding?
I've come across many people with political views not shared by myself I do not hate them for holding those views. You seem driven by sheer hate, sdpite and utter stupidity can you not see that ALL parties aim high but usually do not hit the target? It is ambitions - not targets or predictions.
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190. brigadierjohn
"Sit down and have a wee rest. Everyone understands your frustration and disappointment."
Very evidently you do not. I am perfectly calm about the whole thing. It is the fanatical unionists who are working themselves up into their usual frenzy.
The outcome of the election is pretty much as expected. But I will never support a government which has no democratic mandate in Scotland. I leave that kind of treachery to the British Labour Party.
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191. os_house
"The parties that would form any Lib-Con UK government were supported by a third of voters in Scotland and have MPs the length and breadth of the country in rural and urban constituencies. Is this going to answer the question about mandate in Scotland?"
But the unionists insist that it is only seats which count in a UK parliamentary election. The blue Tories have only one seat in Scotland. And even when the LibDems sell themselves for a wee stool in the corner of the Cabinet the resulting dubious coalition will have only 12 seats in Scotland. By their own argument they have no mandate.
But it matters not at all the the Tory/BLP alliance. As was made clear when one of their spokesmen intimated that, because it was a British election, any unionist party would have the right to rule Scotland even if nobody north of the border voted for them.
Such is "demockracy" British-style.
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#190. At 4:53pm on 07 May 2010, brigadierjohn wrote:
"Perhaps we should accept the verdict of the people and give them a chance"?
That is exactly what the majority of posters ARE doing - what's wrong with you? The verdict of the People is, "A HUNG PARLIAMENT". There is, as yet no one to give a chance to, until they sort out among themselves what combination of parties are going to attempt to form the next government and is called before her Majesty.
Only then will we be informed who we will be ruled by.
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196. Reluctant-Expat
"I don't think I have ever read a more pointless, ridiculous and wholly irrelevant response."
Strange, then, that you are totally unable to come up with a meaningful response. Like so many of the more shallow-minded unionist fanatics you imagine the SNP to be only about Alex Salmond and independence. Personally, I am perfectly content to have you so disastrously underestimate the principle progressive democratic force in our country.
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49. At 08:04am on 07 May 2010, deducted4points wrote:
Good morning Nationalists...where are your 20 'Champions'? As expected , nowhere. The Scottish people have returned a clear verdict - the vast majority want to stay in the Union.
Interesting you bring up the independence issue. As Alex Salmond has repeatedly said, the independence matter is one for the Scottish Parliament and its people. He does not want - quite rightfully so - the interference from the London based parties, the wide scale corruption that would result is quite predictable. They are not willing to lose Scotland's natural resources wealth at a time in which they need to bleed the oil wells dry to pay off Labour's debt. Secondly, SNP still done well, yes they set ambitious targets, but in no way is it confirmation that people want to stay in this union.
You should note that should Westminster have used a PR system of voting, the SNP with 20% of the vote would have returned more MPs. Instead they only got 10% of the seats in Scotland, so its not really a fair result anyway. Second point to note, everyone on TV asked about why they were voting for a party, returned with the same response. "I was impressed with their performance on the tv debates", The SNP was discriminated against and excluded from these, something which is democratically unforgiveable.
You may want to start being smug and bash the SNP, but it was the Labour party that stood idlely by as the Tories introduced the Poll Tax in Scotland, closed the major industries in Fife with the loss of thousands of jobs particularly in Rosyth instead relocating the positions to England. Anyway when David Cameron is in downing street with no mandate to govern here, and the true extent of the cuts are made clear. Scotland will realise that allowing another country to make decisions for it in terms of funding is a massive injustice, and will inevitably lean towards the party that will stand up for it most, and achieve rather Full Fiscal Autonomy for this under funded country, or even better, full independence from the United Kingdom.
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Things I have learned form this bog -
1) The English hate the Scots.
2) The Scots hold no such prejudice against their southern neighbours.
3) Anyone who didn't vote SNP is a fool.
4) The Conservatives are EVIL.
5) The English hate the Scots.
6) The debates are to blame for everything (even the volcano).
7) ANYONE who does not agree with the posters on this blog is a UNIONIST, and cleatly does not understand politics.
8) The Tories hold no mandate in Scotland. With 3% more of the vote, the SNP do.
9) The SNP (with 6 seats for 19.9% of the vote) are under represented in Westminster. The Tories (with 1 seat for 16.7% of the vote) are over represented.
10) The election was rigged by the BBC.
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And to remind everyone, this was a UK election, not a Scottish one.
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Good news for Labour in Blairdardie.
http://the-universality-of-cheese.blogspot.com/2010/05/good-news-for-peoples-loyal-republic-of.html
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#205 EH: You are perfectly calm? In your last few posts you have accused people and parties of fanatical prejudice, treachery, betrayal, corruption, etc., and anyone daring to question you has been dismissed as pointless, ridiculous, irrelevant and rabid unionists. Calm? I'd hate to see you uptight!
You know all too well what happened to "Big Hullabaloo" don't you. It wasn't fanatical unionists who had that username chucked off the site. It was nationalists sick and tired of being tarred with the lunatic brush. When your own fellow Nats tell you that you're setting the cause back a generation it's too late for rants at the likes of me.
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114. mrbfaethedee
I got almost exactly what I wanted! Could've done with a bit more balance in the popular vote, but it's almost an ideal situation demanding honesty and common sense and, most importantly, a commitment to speedy electoral reform.
May we live in interesting times!
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Investment tip:
Buy long spoons!
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213. brigadierjohn
"In your last few posts you have accused people and parties of fanatical prejudice, treachery, betrayal, corruption, etc."
I merely describe what I see.
213. brigadierjohn
"You know all too well what happened to "Big Hullabaloo" don't you."
I have no idea what this is about.
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#210. At 7:07pm on 07 May 2010, Denno wrote:
"Things I have learned form this bog -
etc"
Ah, nothing like a bit of effective political satire.
In fact, not even vaguely resembling..
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#216 EH: "I merely describe what I see."
For how long have you been seeing these things?
Yes, the memory can play tricks on us. I wouldn't worry - probably just a bit of electoral stress.
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214. Cash Hughes
"...a commitment to speedy electoral reform."
Highly unlikely. At best, there will be a prolonged "consultation" process.
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After reading quite a few posts around the BBC site I find that as well as a north/south electoral split there is the appearance of anti English/anti Scottish comments! I wonder what other impact this election will have on the UK people and fear that it might well not be all good.
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Goodnight all. Don't let the bad dreams bother you. Tomorrow, you'll realise that it was an SNP landslide.
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#168 Auld Bob
Do yourself a favour mate. Your Boys took a hell of a beating. Just accept it and move on. You are not independent and will never be as long as the majority of Scots want to remain in the UK. If they wanted out - they would have voted for Salmond -or cant you understand that?. 6 out of 59 seats is pretty poor in anyones book.
Also your so called stats are meaningless. Just look at the result- Scotland voted Labour because they get a good deal. The so called Voice of Scotland- First Minister Salmond has no credibility whatsoever- where are the 20 seats and Scotlands "champions" ?
I have no quarrel with ordinary Scots- we see them in carlisle all the time. But to the SNP fanatics who run anti English campaigns- who are YOU to tell us that we MUST have an English Parliment, London Based parties, Scottish oil subsidising England etc etc I have a message for you:
I am proud to come from a city that stands against Scottish nationalism & has done so for 900 years FACT
The SNP does not represent most Scots- FACT
You took a hell of a beating FACT
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#222. At 8:11pm on 07 May 2010, solway
Oh dear, someone has a saliva splattered screen.
Good work Auld Bob, if there's anything the FACT shouters hate it's persistent re-iteration of facts.
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222. solway
Comedy gold!
Unintentional I'm sure, but still...
Lol!
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#222 well thanks for sharing your views on Scottish independence with us, you'll be pleased to know that the process towards building an independent Scottish democracy continues, mate.
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225. InMyKip wrote: "you'll be pleased to know that the process towards building an independent Scottish democracy continues, mate".
Whilst InMyKip is lying and dreaming in his Kip.
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221. brigadierjohn
"Tomorrow, you'll realise that it was an SNP landslide. "
By tomorrow you'll have convinced yourself that someone actually made such a claim. Poor soul!
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I need to jump in here. There is so much mince from both sides its not true. (well about normal for here!!)
Bottom line to me is WHY, with the economy in such a state, an unpopular prime minister, expenses scandals and goodness knows what else, WHY did the SNP fail to gain a single seat?
True, there has been negative campaigning and lack of media coverage, but to state that there has been absolutely no fault of the SNP is complete and utter rubbish.
But Labour cannot claim victory either, since we now have GB squatting in No10 while everyone else squabbles. So to all the Labour supporters, you are almost certainly going to have Cameron/Clegg sitting in No10.
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222. solway
"Your Boys took a hell of a beating."
You might be right. But for the arithmetic.
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#226 No I'm having Tory nightmares.
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#228 you are right it is an interesting question as to why the SNP didn't gain any additional seats, it's also interesting as to why Labour retained so many Scottish seats given their dismal hand in the failure of the economy.
Labour got 1,035,528 Scottish votes and got 41 seats.
Lib Dems got 465,471 Scottish votes and got 11 seats.
SNP got 491,386 Scottish votes and got 6 seats.
Tory's got 412,855 Scottish votes and got 1 seat.
Labours vote is twice that of any other party yet they get 4 times the seats of the Lib Dems and almost 7 times the seats of the SNP and 40 times the seats of the Tories.
The Lib Dems get less votes than the SNP yet they have almost twice the seats, and the Tories come off worse with 1 seat yet they are only 45,000 votes behind the Lib Dems.
The number of seats sadly does not represent the number of votes a party receives.
Draw your own conclusions
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#46.paulhandley
First post probably get slated
Forgive me if I am wrong but Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh on the 06/05/1953 as far as I am concerned that makes him a Scot.
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228. enneffess
"I need to jump in here. There is so much mince from both sides its not true. (well about normal for here!!)
"
Not from you though, eh enneffess? ;)
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228. enneffess
"Bottom line to me is WHY, with the economy in such a state, an unpopular prime minister, expenses scandals and goodness knows what else, WHY did the SNP fail to gain a single seat?
True, there has been negative campaigning and lack of media coverage, but to state that there has been absolutely no fault of the SNP is complete and utter rubbish."
I think you're stretching it a bit to make out that people are denying the SNP have any part in their own failure to gain. They didn't really campaign that hard as far as a I could see - but they'll be saving up for the real election. They can't offer concessions to the electorate like the 'PM cnadidate' parties can, so their ability to bribe the electorate is limited. They played it canny and got themselves back to level, in spite of things you don't want me to take into account. You know I'd rather they'd pla it less canny, but that's why they're politicians and i'm not.
Perhaps you could have a go at the complementary question - how did Labour manage to retain so much of the vote? I'm sure you'll be able to phrase any response in such a way as to avoid any indignant repsonses, comment policing etc...
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232. Naman
"
First post probably get slated"
slated or rated, at least you participated ;)
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Jeez! you guy's! get your thinking caps on?
"IF?" the lib/dems form a coalition with the tories. Ask? the question, how many of the 11 constituencies voted for the lib/dems to form a government with the tories?.
Under the recall of MP's and holding MP's to account, I'd say that would justify all 11 lib/dem MP's seats nil and void and those seats should be re-run.
Make Scotland conservative free! Christ! there could be nine seats up for grabs and I wouldn't mind doing a bit of campaigning on mutual grounds for the cause of a conservative free Scotland.
Is it not ironic that the party that proclaims to be the champions of PR, might form a coalition government with a party that has no mandate in Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.
As I say? get the thinking cap on! this could get very interesting indeed.
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234. mrbfaethedee:
Labour did exceptionally well of course, with a fair and hard fought campaign, not resorting at all to spin, scare stories or slagging off oap's. And as we can see Gordon is still in No10 and will remain so.
Until the balliffs arrive!!
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228. enneffess
"True, there has been negative campaigning and lack of media coverage, but to state that there has been absolutely no fault of the SNP is complete and utter rubbish."
Has anyone stated such a thing? I know I have been critical of certain aspects of the SNP campaign. And I don't think I'm alone in this. But the faults were massively less significant than the joint Tory/BLP campaign to marginalise all alternative parties and reaffirm the two-party duopoly in the UK parliament. In this they succeeded rather too well for their own comfort. That is why we have a hung (or balanced) parliament.
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232. Naman
"Forgive me if I am wrong but Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh on the 06/05/1953 as far as I am concerned that makes him a Scot."
You don't get to decide. Nationality is determined by parentage, not place of birth. Blair did have some claim to being Scottish. But I fail to see what this has to do with anything. He is still a lying, warmongering weasel. And would be if he could trace his pure Scottish ancestry back into the mists of ancient history.
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237. enneffess
lol!!!
night a'body.
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49. deducted4points wrote
Good morning Nationalists...where are your 20 'Champions'? As expected , nowhere. The Scottish people have returned a clear verdict - the vast majority want to stay in the Union.
Labour hails 'spectacular' Scottish results in election..”
They are sooohappy that the Tories won.
They obviously believe better a Tory Government in London than a Labour one in an independent Scotland. It may well be that the Conservatives will be in Government in London for 20 to 25 years.
Will that make Scottish Labour voters happy?
You’re right, deducted4points - they must believe that it is preferable that Scotland is ruled by the Tories in London rather than Labour in an independent Scotland where they would perhaps have perpetual rule instead of perhaps perpetual rule by the Tories. Why are they so happy with that prospect? Is the Union (which few in England even think about) more important that having a Labour Government.
It puzzles me as it does most people ‘abroad’ who can not imagine any nation not wishing sovereignty.
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#236 Kered ..spot on. I think that the Lib Dems should not be forming a coalition with anyone. If they go with the tories i reckon it will go against them next year in Scotland. If they go with Labour it will go against them in England at the next GE.
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#228 "I need to jump in here. There is so much mince"
Jumping into mince.......yuk.
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#241 choice-tastic post bra.
Not happy about the prospect of a Toty Government at all... Lib/Lab pact on the other hand wouldn't concern me.
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#244 .. Hey id like an all toty goverment too .. in bikinis preferably :)
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Can we stop pretending their will be any difference between a Labour and Tory led government, they are exactly the same. A 'Labour' Chancellor promised cuts harder than Thatcher's for christ sake.
Either way Scots have shown their inability to substantial change the outcome of any future UK election. Perhaps this time they will learn the lesson? Vote Labour, get corrupt imbeciles on the sidelines.
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The SNP represent Scotland's interests at Westminster and Scottish voters have, quite rightly, rejected the Conservatives. Alex Salmond is honour bound to do what he can to prevent Tory rule. He knows that Scottish voters would expect him to act in this way and to put forward a progressive alternative. English views are of no significance to him.
The situation is much more tricky for the LibDems. In Scotland they will suffer badly if they help the Tories into government. In England they will suffer badly if they take part in a LibDem/Nationalist/Labour coallition as they will be seen to be robbing England of its Conservative victory through an alliance of Celtic parties and Scottish Labour MPs ! I suspect Scotland will not be the tail that wags the LibDem dog.
Labour face a similar problem. English voters will not forgive them for hanging on to power having clearly lost the election UK wide. If they fail to hang on then it will be clear in Scotland that voting Labour does not save Scotland from the Tories.
It's a tale of two countries in one state - a great backdrop for an independence referendum !
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#247- makinghistory
"The SNP represent Scotland's interests at Westminster"
Not according to the Scottish people they dont. The SNP got just 6 seats-YES 6 seats out of 59 with wipeouts in Glasgow , Edinburgh and the Borders.You dont hold a single seat south of Perth but claim to represent and speak for the whole of Scotland!!
I'm not lying- look at the results!
Scotland does NOT want independence- if it did , it would have voted for the SNP- Simples
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