Hell to pay
Hell, it has to be said, has not of late had the media attention that once it commanded.
Brimstone is seldom mentioned.
That has now changed with not one but two references to the inferno in a political context.
Firstly, Chancellor Alistair Darling said that the "forces of hell" had descended upon him after he forecast in 2008 that the worst recession for 60 years was upon us.
In retrospect, that looks like comparative optimism.
At the time, though, it was regarded as a betrayal of his party's Panglossian verdict that all remained for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
According to Mr Darling, Downing Street formed part of the hellish legion sallying out to attack him.
Presumably, some eager Special Adviser saw it as his/her role to put the Chancellor of the Exchequer right. David Cameron reckons it was the departed Damian McBride.
Or, perhaps, Alistair had one of those full and frank exchanges with his neighbour for which Number 10 is so renowned.
Gordon Brown insists he never instructed any briefing against his Cabinet colleague.
But that hellish image? I mean, come on.
Can you think of anyone - anyone at all - in the Prime Minister's present circle who could conceivably adopt the role of Mephistopheles: the Prince of cunning, the champ of calculation, the lord of manipulation? No, thought not.
Alistair Darling, I think we may safely assert, was speaking figuratively.
It fell to me to interview the Chancellor in his Edinburgh home on the morning in 2008 when the row broke.
He looked notably drawn and tense, certainly. But there was nothing to indicate that the origins of this were anything other than worldly.
Speaking figuratively
To our second hellish reference, then.
Did you catch the Cardinal on GMS this morning?
Keith O'Brien said he had advised Labour's Holyrood leader Iain Gray that he hoped the Pope had a word or two with him during his planned Scottish visit.
To be precise, he said to Mr Gray:
"I hope he gives you hell for what has happened over the last 10 years."
He was speaking figuratively, wasn't he? Of course he was.
Cardinal O'Brien was suggesting, strongly, that Labour had departed from Christian principles in areas such as the family and marriage.
He was responding to a speech by the Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy in which he sought to reach out to those of faith.
"Reach out", that is, by persuading them to vote Labour.
Lest there be any doubt, Mr Murphy was quite explicit here.
He was not merely seeking to engage with faith groups.
He explained that Labour had a lead over the Tories among the religiously committed at the last General Election - and that required to be "replicated".
This, said Mr Murphy, could be done by an effort to "reflect and respect their values and aspirations."
Philosophical dichotomy
The Scottish Secretary was addressing diverse faith groups, including those which are salient in his own East Renfrewshire constituency.
He was in no way confining his comments to the Roman Catholic Church.
However, it was the Scottish Catholic leader who responded most vigorously.
Right, said the Cardinal, if you're respecting our values, let's start with tax breaks for marriage. And civil partnerships - we're not happy. And abortion......
It strikes me that there is a philosophical dichotomy underlying all this.
By definition, faith groups sustain unchanging beliefs.
They base those convictions upon a credo, what they hold to be revealed divine truth.
For example, when seeking a foundation for their way of life, those in the Judaeo-Christian tradition will turn to Exodus and Deuteronomy, not a party manifesto or think tank or focus group.
Those of faith seek to spread those beliefs, to inculcate faith in others: these days, mostly by evangelism - although there are occasions, in history and today, when more directly persuasive means have been deployed by some.
Theocracy or democracy
Crucially, the views of faith groups are not altered by changes in society nor by opposition from a predominantly secular community.
Indeed, they may often be strengthened by such criticism.
By contrast, a democratically elected politician has to act within the ambit laid down by that very mandate.
They cannot, must not, act without the fiat of the people. If they do not follow that course, they are ejected from office.
The can listen to the views of faith leaders. Of course, they can. But they will always balance those views with other elements in society, reaching a view which, they hope, best reflects prevailing opinion and the best course of action.
I suspect that Cardinal O'Brien, being an astute, intelligent man, knows that perfectly well.
Indeed, he insisted that he did not expect political parties to follow his dictat. He knows well that would be a theocracy, not a democracy.
However, he was understandably taking an opportunity, presented by Mr Murphy's speech, to advance the agenda of his particular faith group.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~04~RS~)
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Brian
You're surely not having a dig at the SNP? After all are they not painted as a faith group regularly in the Parly as not being relevant to times of recession and any other excuse that can be used to deny Scots their right to determine their own future, even to affirm their desire to remain in the Union?
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Brian,
'By contrast, a democratically elected politician has to act within the ambit laid down by that very mandate. '
Exactly!
Thus I have to disagree with both Murphy and the cardinal.
Religion has no place in politics.
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sigh............
It surely must be a sign of desperation when any politician trys to play the religious card, in the case of Jim Murphy it seems to have blown up in his face somewhat spectacularly.
The very notion that in the 21st century any sensible person would think this was a good idea, that groups of faith orientated people would somehow vote on block for the person who seems to share their faith. I am at a loss to understand how this was thought to be a good idea, or is it a sign of desperation? does Jim Murphy feel his seat is so under threat that he is stooping so low? what does he know that we dont? perhaps some private polling has revealed information that has alarmed him.
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Brown 'unleashed the forces of hell' on Darling.
Did Cardinal O'Brien unleash the forces of heaven on Smurf?
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Brian,
Liked the Darling part of your blog. Impressive power of suggestion regarding potential demonic figures in Brown's inner circle. A Dark Lord if you will?
On Murphy and the Cardinal - not so impressed. Your line suggests that you feel the Cardinal was chancing his luck and making the most of an opportunity to advance his agenda, but that politics could not and should not be influenced directly by religion. (i.e. Labour were right to ignore them these last 13 years). I quote...
"The can listen to the views of faith leaders. Of course, they can. But they will always balance those views with other elements in society, reaching a view which, they hope, best reflects prevailing opinion and the best course of action.
I suspect that Cardinal O'Brien, being an astute, intelligent man, knows that perfectly well."
To be honest - I agree with you. However, what you omit, is that if that is indeed the case, and the way it should be, then Jim Murphy is hypocritical and insincere in the extreme to attempt to woo the faith vote by pretending he will advance their case.
You touch on the topical subject, yet dodge the elephant in the room.
Still,all in all, an improvement. In that you did not feel the need to add balance with even a token slap on SNP wrists for some "comparative" misdemeanour.
This is a step forward. Balance
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It would be interesting to know what the Cardinal's views are on renewing Trident Vs lifting Scottish chidren out of poverty and or providing clean drinking water for people in Africa?
I have a sneaking view that ALL faiths in Scotland are firmly against renewing Trident! Good on them, this leaves labour and the tories isolated.
C McK
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Interestingly Brian, your two subjects for comment today are both Westminster related.
I'm fine with that. They're the main political talking points of the day, and are both in the realms of Scottish Political context.
What's interesting is that recent police investigations into Scottish Labour MPs expenses claims were deemed not to be blog worthy. I presumed at the time this was because Holyrood was your blogging domain.
As this appears not to be the case, I'm interested in the real reasons for their ommission?
As I recall SNP auction items were deemed more blogworthy at that time?
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Brian,
"By contrast, a democratically elected politician has to act within the ambit laid down by that very mandate. "
Margo's Bill on End Of Life has now been put before the Parliament. All of the parties have indicated that this it to be treated as a "matter of personal conscience".
I have written to my constituency and regional MSPs on this matter as I wished to express my opinion to them as my elected representatives on how I believed that they should represent me in this matter.
Their personal faith, if any, may influence how they vote on this bill.
How do we reconcile an MSP voting on an issue such as this, which could be based on their personal faith, when the dictates of that faith may be opposed to will of the MSPs Electors.
Does anybody else feel that "matters of personal conscience", when they directly affect the law of Scotland, should be open to the voice of the people by referendum ?
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Brian,
I'm not so sure about your claim to "be precise". My recollection of this morning's exchange on GMS was that the Cardinal said "he [the Pope may give you hell...." when referring to Mr Murphy; not "I hope he gives you hell....". Big difference.
As ever, the church and the state make uneasy bedfellows.
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goodness me Brian's blogs are just like the buses .there are none for ages and then 2 come along in 2 days and no doubt there will be another one along later this afternoon.
Mr Murphy is fighting for his political life and what he has stated in the last couple of days shows how worried he is nothing more nothing less. If in doubt play the religion card. It might have worked in the past but it ain't going to work this time.
fully concur with Calum McKay.
Sid
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6. At 1:54pm on 24 Feb 2010, Calum McKay wrote:
"It would be interesting to know what the Cardinal's views are on renewing Trident Vs lifting Scottish chidren out of poverty and or providing clean drinking water for people in Africa?"
====================================
It would also be interesting to know the Cardinal's views on providing contraception in Africa to reduce the spread of AIDS.
I would also like to hear his views on non-denominal children being allowed to attend faith schools.
And to balance the argument, I'd like to hear the SoS' views on providing a cheaper alternative to Trident. Plenty out there and at a fraction of the cost.
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" I did not instruct them to attack the chancellor " Sounds a bit like " I did not make love to that woman ". Sir Gus didn't talk to godie about bullying, "he just told him how to get the best out of his employees". Degrees of truth appear to be what is on offer here. As for Murphy, is he really for real, maybe somebody should have told him that kissing the pope's ring is one thing, instructing the church of Rome in political dogma is another matter entirely and usually leads to purgatory in one way or another.
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While spending the day indoors while it snows, something struck me about this whole religious thing and Jim Murphy. He claims to be a Christian, but is most certainly not adhering to the teachings of Christ and the church. He is therefore a hypocrite.
The Labour Party appears to have replaced God and faith in people like Jim Murphy; it's like an organised religion to it's members. Labour politicians like Murphy do appear to follow the Labour Party like blind adherents to some cult. All misdemeanors and "sins" can be justified, such as poverty, poor education, mass unemployment, social injustice of every sort. But as long as they remain faithful to the Party, then all the ills they have caused are forgiven (if they are indeed acknowledged).
In addition, it's permissable to tell lies, to distort the facts, indeed anything that will ensure that the Labour Party is accendent. But like some strange clergy, these Labour Ministers will spout their poisoned sermons, take their ill gotten gains and turn a blind eye to the rest of the populace. And to think that people in Scotland will still vote for them!
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Trident would be even cheaper if entirely scrapped: then we would have no weapons of mass destruction system we can't use, instead of a ludicrously expensive weapons of mass destruction system we can't use.
Skeletor is a laughing-stock (what is new). Here is a real question Brian: on which side did the skeleton come down in the dim, dark, backstabbing Hell in Westminster?
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Indeed, he insisted that he did not expect political parties to follow his dictat. He knows well that would be a theocracy, not a democracy.
However, he was understandably taking an opportunity, presented by Mr Murphy's speech, to advance the agenda of his particular faith group.
Oh, and he wasn't pointing out what a hypocrite Mr Murphy is, you would apparently contend?
By the way, Ye Cannae Do That was pointed out on the previous thread shortly before the new one started and I wanted to bring the link forward.
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The gravy train that was the arrogant and arguably corrupt reliance of Scottish Labour on the Central Belt Catholic vote has finally hit the buffers. This is welcome but not surprising with stokers like Murphy and Reid on the footplate.
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I'm with Monsieur Diderot on this one.
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
Denis Diderot.
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Excellent statement from Nicola. Stood up for her determination to represent her constituents, but accepted that "mistake" was a mistake, and that she had no need to ask for a non-custodial sentence as the court would do that anyway.
Apologised for parts of the text of the letter.
Iain Gray unable to switch his prepared attack line, Goldie and others did much better.
Matter over, I suspect - but with Nicola's reputation emhanced rather than damaged.
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Well I think the girl did good! ........ Most impressed.. .
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[ 11. At 2:13pm on 24 Feb 2010, enneffess wrote:
I would also like to hear his views on non-denominal children being allowed to attend faith schools.]
Non-denominational children, and children of other faiths, attend Catholic schools in Scotland. When the Catholic pupils are doing RE or attending mass, for example, the non-denominational/other faith kids do something else. My old secondary school in Glasgow has a lot of Muslim kids attending it - without any problems. In fact, if you speak to the educational authorities, or the Church, they will tell you that nowadays there is no such thing a a 'Catholic school', at least not in the terms of what it used to mean. There are schools whose ethos is a Catholic ethos, but children of other backgrounds are not forced to convert (or participate in those dreadful Catholic rituals!) if their parents want them to attend such a school! Of course, those calling for the closure of faith schools either don't know, or don't want to know this.
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Or, perhaps, Alistair had one of those full and frank exchanges with his neighbour for which Number 10 is so renowned.
One of the more interesting aspects of this whole spectacle that seems to be missed by the journalists, is that while Gordon Brown sits there denying what Mr Rawnsley in his book The End of the Party did NOT say he did--that Brown hit anyone--Mr. Brown himself commented that he sometimes "throws newspapers or something like that".
In fact what THAT is exactly the kind of thing he IS accused of: “Long-standing members of his inner circle had endured Brown's temper for years and accepted the tantrums as part of the price of working for a complex man they admired...” says Mr Rawnsley.
I won't go into the question of whether a grown man who throws temper tantrums that would get a three-year-old put with their nose in a corner is admirable. That is for others to decide, but such appears to be the truth about this man.
It is very noticeable that in all this NO ONE has actually denied what is in this book.
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"The Scottish Secretary was addressing diverse faith groups, including those which are salient in his own East Renfrewshire constituency."
I'm sure he was but according to reports by the BBC there were only about twenty people at his speech.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/radioscotland/programmes/schedules/fm/2010/02/24
Good programme debate on Radio Scotland on this subject today.
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Maybe the Pope should take Jim Murphy MP to task over his decision to seek support from the Orange Order in the Glasgow NE election, when he visits.
Off topic but, many roads and schools closed, tragic accidents , weather warning covering most of Scotland.
So where is the 15mins long report and wall to wall coverage of the snow in Scotland on the BBC news channel? Is the snow only news when it lands in the M25 area?
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I am Protestant - I have a grandchild who attends a Catholic school because it is the best primary in his area - teaches Christianity and says the Lords prayer every morning, UNLIKE all other state schools, and we can see where Labours morals,( LACK OF,) and P.C. rubbish have taken the uk - the Cardinal is right - the idiot Murphy is WRONG.
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"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's seems to apply here - an argument for the seperation of Church and State is it not?
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Herald on line headline,
"Sturgeon admits she was wrong over fraudster letter"
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I’m rather glad Mr Gray decided to become a politician; while he can hardly be said to excel, far better that he makes a fool of himself in parliament than in the classroom. Would you really want your children taught by this man?
By contrast to his nonsensical demand that she withdraw the letter of support for Mr Rauf, both Ms Sturgeon and Ms Goldie acquitted themselves very well. The apology was handsomely given by the first and just as handsomely accepted by the second in a refreshingly civilised exchange which Westminster would do well to emulate.
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Taken from HolyroodDaily on their Twitter account.
First Minister and Deputy cleared over 'Lunchgate' by Standards Commissioner http://bit.ly/9V4CJ8
I wonder if BBC Scotland will be taking there time in reporting this, also I very much doubt they will be giving this air time for days on end, like they did when they first reported the allegation.
Reminder to you Brian, you are paid to report the news(impartially remember, it's in the BBC Charter!), your not suppose to be making the news for your own political ends.
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Rather good article in the Caledonia Mercury:
http://politics.caledonianmercury.com/2010/02/24/sturgeon-apologises-over-support-for-benefit-cheat/
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Thought Nicola did very well today. Although I still think she should not have apologised.
Gray was left floundering as were the rest of the Labour MSP's.
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It is high time that this Cardinal realised he has one vote like the rest of us. Then again maybe he is trying to organise a block vote. If so his church should register as a political party (no overseas donations!) and lose any charitable status tax breaks it presently enjoys.
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Oh dearie dearie me, Labour's not doing very well right now. Leaving aside troubles down south, Mr Murphy has been roundly shouted down over his attempt to re-ignite the 30 Years War by "playing the religous card" (even the Scotsman found that difficult to swallow); Mr Gray has yet again made a fool of himself in Parliament, and now the Lunchgate complaint has been given very short shrift indeed by the Commissioner.
It's not Scottish government ministers who should be thinking of resigning...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
You can tell the weather is rubbish in Beauly; I've been on the laptop all day :)
Nicola Sturgeon apologises; and enhances her standing! It'll be interesting to see what the press make of this tomorrow. It may a good story with which to bury the Murphy gaff. Not that many people read the newspapers lol!
Now, Lo and behold; Holyrood's Standards Commissioner has dismissed complaints against the first minister and his deputy for auctioning lunches to raise funds for the SNP.
Interestingly, please note that the story on the BBC news site that has Nicola apologising uses Capitals thus "Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon". However, in the story re the lunches, they use lower case.
Strange!
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Remember Labour in Scotland getting all het up about some auctioned lunches.
The Scottish Parliamentary Standards Commissioner now says that the complaints are not relevant and that there is no evidence of sufficient substance warranting further investigation. He has dismissed the complaints.
I watched Nicola Sturgeon's statement and subsequent questions. My only question is how anyone can think of voting for Labour in Scotland given the standard of representatives they have.
The only sane way to deal with Labour in Scotland is to ignore them. They simply do not deserve any attention
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Just finished listening to the BBC Radio Scotland phone in on i-Player
The fundamentalist Cardinal is indeed to my mind consumed with Homophobia. Almost every supporter of Cardinal O'Brien was either embarrassingly incoherent or so fire and brimstone that they totally discredited themselves.
Conversely, the secular society chap, the church of Scotland supporter and in particular the gay guy from Dundee spoke considered, moderately and sensibly.
If ever a case was made for why religion and in particular the Catholic Church in Scotland stay out of politics - this radio phone made the case excellently.
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#18 oldnat
A ministerial resignation announced in a statement to parliament following interference in a criminal case is a serious matter. So it may be as well to be aware that such a resignation statement was the main item in the news yesterday. Yes, it was, for those of us who occasionally take our news from RTE.
In the Irish parliament yesterday afternoon the minister of state for food and horticulture, Trevor Sargent (Green Party), resigned following a revelation that he had written to the police on behalf of a constituent with a view to preventing a prosecution against that person. The minister acknowledged that he had crossed the line, as what he had done was plainly unlawful, and that his position was, therefore, untenable.
In that case there was self-evidently a serious error of judgment, to which political rivals have justifiably taken exception. On the other hand the Deputy First Minister of Scotland's routine post-trial representations on behalf of her constituent were, of course, obviously lawful, as I understand it, despite all the brouhaha that there has been.
It is no doubt always worth putting matters raised by the opposition into their proper perspective and conceding that they could have been dealt with more appropriately where that is the case. Ms Sturgeon is, therefore, to be commended for her statement in the Scottish Parliament today.
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24. MrJingles wrote:
''Maybe the Pope should take Jim Murphy MP to task over his decision to seek support from the Orange Order in the Glasgow NE election, when he visits.''
You cannot be serious, surely?
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32. uk_abz_scot
"It is high time that this Cardinal realised he has one vote like the rest of us. Then again maybe he is trying to organise a block vote. If so his church should register as a political party (no overseas donations!) and lose any charitable status tax breaks it presently enjoys.
"
I can't agree with you here. After all, it was a politician's statement he is responding to and like anyone else he has that right.
If Mr. Murphy is going to say that Labour particularly represents a certain constituency, a member of that constituency has the right to stand up and say: "No you don't!"
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33. Caledonian54
"Oh dearie dearie me, Labour's not doing very well right now. Leaving aside troubles down south, Mr Murphy has been roundly shouted down over his attempt to re-ignite the 30 Years War by "playing the religous card" (even the Scotsman found that difficult to swallow); Mr Gray has yet again made a fool of himself in Parliament, and now the Lunchgate complaint has been given very short shrift indeed by the Commissioner.
It's not Scottish government ministers who should be thinking of resigning..."
Indeed, indeed.
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27. Diabloandco
"Herald on line headline"
But the article ends with
Green Party co-leader Patrick Harvie MSP said: “I shared some of the criticism of the question of judgement when we first learned that the letter had been written.
“But can I say that I think Nicola Sturgeon has shown impeccable judgement in striking the right tone today and I respect her for it.”
That is the bit that will be most important for floating voters - little changes the minds of those are politically committed.
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29. MrJingles
"I wonder if BBC Scotland will be taking there time in reporting this, also I very much doubt they will be giving this air time for days on end, like they did when they first reported the allegation.
Reminder to you Brian, you are paid to report the news(impartially remember, it's in the BBC Charter!), your not suppose to be making the news for your own political ends.
"
Actually they are covering it but with a chuckle-inducing lack of enthusiasm. They are at some pains to list the SNP fundraising but carefully don't mention similar fundraising by other parties.
Still at least they did grudgingly admit that the First Minister and Deputy First Minister did nothing wrong. They don't take themselves to task for their hysterical over-reporting of a non-story. ;)
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39. Wansanshoo
"''Maybe the Pope should take Jim Murphy MP to task over his decision to seek support from the Orange Order in the Glasgow NE election, when he visits.''
You cannot be serious, surely?"
I rather suspect it was sarcasm. =)
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Having scanned the above blog, ‘my’ own take is that this was not a purely theological issue (which BBC now seems to be indicating). The Cardinal casts the net ‘wide’ by saying Labour’s “systematic and unrelenting attack on family values”. People will have different interpretations of this statement.
But, what was evident is the general attack on the Labour Party and also Mr Murphy- I do not believe the Cardinal was using Mr Murphy’s speech to “advance the agenda of his particular faith group”. I imagine- (like most people)- he found Mr Murphy’s perceived use of religion for political self promotion as unacceptable.
Further he also asked the question - did we want another 10 years of Labour, and also with the election coming up, we should think hard about what we ‘do’ want for Scotland. He wasn’t preaching- he was trying to open minds. (A job the MSM is supposed to do but fails miserably).
………………….
#6 Calum Mckay.
Re: faith groups and Trident:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8124266.stm
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A very creditable performance from Nicola Sturgeon. To Labour's horror she has emerged today with her reputation and standing enhanced if anything.
When the camera panned across the chamber to Iain Gray for his response I held my breath. Will his colleagues wrestle him to the ground and save themselves from the inevitable?
Is there time to slip that tub of lard onto his chair and hope nobody notices the improvement?
Will Gray slowly light his umpteenth fag of the day, tell the presiding officer he has nothing useful to add and sit back like an old Hamlet cigar ad to the sound of an orchestra?
No this is Labour, sadly he got up and started talking as the sea lions slapped their desks.
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18. oldnat
Agree, no matter your political point of view, the statement given by Nicola Sturgeon was as good as it gets, and as has been said in other posts, enhances what we would like to see of our MSP's. Goldie and the Green's noted this in a dignified manner, the downside for the Parliament was the tone and manner of the Labour Party questions, they have shot themselves in the foot with this one.
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46. GrassyKnollington
:-) If I hat wasn't covered in snow, I'd doff it to you!
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45. cassidy
"Re: faith groups and Trident:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8124266.stm"
A very good link. It is a good idea not to make assumption about groups just because you disagree with them on points. While I am an atheist and am VERY suspicious of any connection between religion and government (hence my very American dislike of state-run "religious schools"--forbidden in this country), the religious, including bishops, are still citizens and have a right to express an opinion.
Even people one dislikes may even, at times, share an opinion and have a point worth considering. The fact is that the opinions of a bishop may influence Catholics even though I don't know any who allow the Catholic Church to tell them how to vote (or we wouldn't have a Democrat for a president over here).
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Anyone have an email address feedback for The Herald? I won't go there to find one at this point. (Their advertising income is driven by page-views, after all) but I do have a word or two to say to the numpties--such a good Scots word--at that publication.
They bring shame to the profession of journalism.
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OmiGod - I've just seen Elmer's new bouffant!
I'm all overcome - in fact I'm p*shin' masel'!
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Regarding the Boss and the First Lady being cleared of 'Lunchgate', Brian reports the Labourites as being 'bemused' and saying, 'if no rules have been broken, the rules must be changed'.
These people are beyond parody (a bit like Elmer's barnet).
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Let me say that it is people such as Kenny MacAskill and Nicola Sturgeon (and Alex Salmond) who have brought about a real admiration from a non-Scot for the SNP.
Seeing politicians stand up under fire, maintain their honor and beliefs, and behave with at a modicum of dignity is good to see in this sad old world. Although I've followed UK and Scottish politics slightly for years, it wasn't until the al-Megrahi affair that I really came to admire this political party and as someone who looks at ALL politicians with deep suspicion, it was a revelation.
Of course, they aren't always right. They're human, but they are actually the one political party in the world that I have considerable admiration for.
Way to go, Nicola Sturgeon.
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Nicola Sturgeon's speech
For any who missed it, you might want to watch for yourself.
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To paraphrase Voltaire -
If Jim Murphy did not exist,it would be necessary to invent him.
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#50 JRMacC
Try this: letters@theherald.co.uk
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#47 romeplebian- evening, yes indeed the labour party have shot themselves in the foot so many times in the last few weeks alone it's a wonder there is any of them still able to stand!
If nothing else is gained from this , those on the labour benches should be forced to watch Ms Sturgeons performance again and again until they learn how to conduct themselves in public !they are an embarrassment to the human race
Sid
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Excellent performance by Sturgeon. Stood up and admitted an error of judgement, but more importantly explained where she went wrong and that she understood the reaction. No digs at the opposition, no sly comments about other MSPs providing support to constituents. In fact, most uncommon to see in a politician. That in itself will gain her much respect. Any politician who actually admits to an error should be commended.
It was never a resigning issue from the start.
Labour's tactics are highly questionnable. Why does Gray insist on resignations every time? If I was in his position, I would be using criticism where appropriate, perhaps showing a bit of empathy and offering at times to support some policies where there is difficulty. Then when a serious issue does arise, the call for "considering your position" carries a lot more weight. If you want to deflate an opponent in a debate you have to be subtle.
Looking at the recent issues, the only ones that really could be treated as serious - not resignation - are the release of Megrahi and education. Both of these, despite the underlying reasons, have cost the SNP votes. Megrahi's release may have also gained some but be realistic. Not everyone thought it was a good idea.
Sturgeon has enhanced her position within government. She has tackled health and she has shown she is prepared to accept criticism where due.
More importantly, she has strengthened her position within the SNP, and that will make it very difficult for any opponent who seeks to topple her in the future.
--------------------------------
On the religious issues, politicians would do well to keep away. Any hint of support for one "side" invariably upsets the other.
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It seems over the last week the bbc in Scotland are trying to control them-self’s some, but you can’t turn the clock back they have shown them self’s for what they are, a unionist cabal, but even when they try to control they self’s they still can’t but take there lead from labour the fact that it’s backfired well that was bound to happen at some point .
What I notice is that they keep nervously repeating how they are the most viewed news programme in Scotland ,reporting Scotland’s that is. Well like I notice the great range of choice we have http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/bbcscotlandfair/
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57. sid_ts63
"#47 romeplebian- evening, yes indeed the labour party have shot themselves in the foot so many times in the last few weeks alone it's a wonder there is any of them still able to stand!"
With no toes left he'll be able to put both feet in his mouth at the same time.
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You Nats are unbelievable... when the Rauf story first broke it was a load of old bull; Sturgeon couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.... Now, today after she says sorry, actually I got it wrong you are all tied in knots. I accept that her apology is welcome and should be applauded, but it took far too long to arrive.
As for wee Eck's performance defending her, it highlights why people mistrust him and SNP... the staggering arrogance he showed and the assumption he made that if he shouted loud enough that would make him right.
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The Sermon on the Mount, according to Jim I'm a pal of Jesus Murphy
1. And seeing the photo opportunity, he went up onto the podium: and when he was set, the reporters came unto him:
2. And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3. Blessed are the wealthy: for we shall enrich them at the expense of the poor.
4. Blessed are they that bully: for their accusers shall be scorned.
5. Blessed are the bankers: for the people shall inherit their debt.
6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after Parliamentary expenses: for their trough shall be filled.
7. Blessed are the vengeful: for they shall obtain approving headlines in the Sun.
8. Blessed are the hypocrites: for they are made in the image of Gordon.
9. Blessed are the warmongers: for they shall be found innocent by the inquiry we set up.
10. Blessed are they who lie and deceive for Labour's sake: for theirs is the electoral register.
11. Blessed are our friends in the media, for when men shall revile us, and condemn us, and shall express all manner of disgust at us, only attacks upon the SNP shall be reported.
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58. enneffess
"Looking at the recent issues, the only ones that really could be treated as serious - not resignation - are the release of Megrahi and education. Both of these, despite the underlying reasons, have cost the SNP votes. Megrahi's release may have also gained some but be realistic. Not everyone thought it was a good idea."
I am still not sure it was "a good idea" but the SNP garnered a lot of respect from me anyway for standing up and taking the heat with no excuses. Both Kenny MacAskill and Nicola Sturgeon have the kind of backbone I would love to see in politicians *I* vote for.
But I think that you're right that the issues have probably lost them some votes, although it may have gained them a few as well. I suspect they take the long-term view that it will eventually show them capable of governance. There are times when a government simply must do things that may lose them votes or can't achieve something they want to and lose votes because of it (the case in education, I think).
For a governing (minority) party, the SNP is still in a relatively strong position. Having to actually try to do something does open one up to criticism. :)
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61. deducted4points
"You Nats are unbelievable... when the Rauf story first broke it was a load of old bull; Sturgeon couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.... Now, today after she says sorry, actually I got it wrong you are all tied in knots. I accept that her apology is welcome and should be applauded, but it took far too long to arrive.
As for wee Eck's performance defending her, it highlights why people mistrust him and SNP... the staggering arrogance he showed and the assumption he made that if he shouted loud enough that would make him right."
Since that is NOT what she said, one can only say that the CyberBrits are at it again.
Do you enjoy lying? =)
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58. enneffess
"perhaps showing a bit of empathy"
I liked the comment that I saw elsewhere about the Brown bullying story. Apparently someone working there said that Brown was ill-tempered but he lacked enough empathy with other people to actually "bully" anyone. Bullies enjoy others misery, and Brown doesn't care about anyone else to bother.
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deducted4points:
#61.
"You Nats are unbelievable... when the Rauf story first broke it was a load of old bull; Sturgeon couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.... Now, today after she says sorry, actually I got it wrong you are all tied in knots. I accept that her apology is welcome and should be applauded, but it took far too long to arrive."
You British nationalists are embarressing, the Parliament has been on a break for a while and therefore Sturgeon has been unable to explain to Parliament concerning her judgement.
I will also point out most people attack her defence of a criminal but Sturgeon has only apologised for making suggestions of alternatives punishments but nothing about actually defending the criminal in the first place.
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deducted4points 61
One I don’t think she should have apologised, two she did not apologise for trying to help a constituent, just how she formed the letter, I am not a member of the snp not by a long shot. I think they are too nice by half. No one and I mean no one needs help when things are rosy, it’s when your down and out. The fact that she is was up for helping some one who got them self’s into such a mess get’s a few bonus points from me. But then I am not a goody two shoes like all those labour mp’s and Westminster politicians who am I right where helping them-self’s to thousands in public funds. What’s that about those without sin cast the first stone.
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#62 InfrequentAllele2
Thank you for that post, it is the funniest thing I have seen in a while.
Talk about laughing out load I am still chortling even as I type
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#50
You can find an email feedback for The Herald if you search long enough. It is usually at the bottom of news articles on their web site.
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69. hamish42
"#50
You can find an email feedback for The Herald if you search long enough. It is usually at the bottom of news articles on their web site.
"
I make it an ABSOLUTE policy never to go to their "news" articles. That gives them page views which they use both to charge for advertising (thus being paid for their poor journalism) and to try to justify their comments.
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50. JRMacClure
"Anyone have an email address feedback for The Herald? I won't go there to find one at this point."
Media UK
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#62 Infrequentallele2 -congrats, inspired post. one of the best in a long while. still ROFL. look forward to the unionist reply.
Sid
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#71 wrong link
Herald Media
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#62 InfrequentAllele2
First time I've posted in months. Absolutely brilliant post! How Skeletor gets away with such hypocrisy is beyond me. Much as I despise the slimey sod, he usually doesn't make many mistakes politically but this should have been a glaring error but, as usual, the compliant media have let him away with it.
On the apology. I can't blame Elmer for trying to build this up into a possible resignation issue, it is politics after all, but Nicola's apology and his reply only serves to highlight the massive disparity in talent between the SNP and the party now masquerading as Labour.
As somebody who reads but rarely posts, O thought I should add my tuppence-worth regarding Brian's frequency/timing of his blogs. Fairly balanced today so no complaints there but the lack of blogs on subjects that may show labour in a bad light (I know it's hard to fathom) is a disgrace and a dereliction in your responsibilities as EBC Scotland political editor.
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A lot of people missing the point here.
The cardinal is not mixing up politics and religion. Jim Murphy is.
The cardinal was merely kindly pointing out for those who hadn't noticed that Jim Murphy was seeking to use religion to increase his electoral support and that Jim Murphy, who has voted in Parliament in favour of things that he implies to his constituents he opposes, is a hypocrite.
I suspect Jim knows he is losing his seat. I suspect also that a not inconsiderable number of Labour people associated with Labour's group in the Scottish Parliament are not hugely unhappy about this.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Caron's Musings
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In relation to the dismissal of "Lunch Gate" I see that Guido has it that "Unite the Union"have been prevented from misusing "The Parliamentary Estate and Status" by having "An event"within the Palace of Westminster" where invited guests could meet Labour MPs and councilors kicking of Unite's campaign for the re-election of Labour.
Seemingly "the Serjeant at Arms" apparently upheld a Tory complaint that this would have been a misuse of the Palace of Westminster.
Doesn't schadenfreude give a warm glow at times!
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67. tamO
"One I don’t think she should have apologised, two she did not apologise for trying to help a constituent, just how she formed the letter, I am not a member of the snp not by a long shot"
I agree tamO.
I don't think she had anything to apolgise for, and think it was an good political decision. I think she presented it excellently; clearly demonstrating the difference in class between the parties.
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Off topic slightly, but I thought the following link might be of interest to some of you: MPs to be watched on local issues
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#64 JRM
What lies?
Ms Sturgeon added: "In short, I assisted a constituent in good faith and for what I considered to be the right reasons, but in doing so I did get some things wrong and for that I am sorry."
She said sorry!
Do you enjoy being the typical arrogant blinkered Nat?
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67. tamO:
I think you are incorrect in saying that she should not have apologised. If she thought she had not done anything wrong, she would not have made that apology.
You cannot expect every SNP minister to be perfect all of the time.
Where Sturgeon is different to the majority of most ministers, and in fact MPs and MSPs is that she has stood up and admitted and error, explained why without attempt to cover her backside.
That is probably the strongest statement by any politician this year.
Look to the future, that shows she is prepared to accept criticism, and that inspires confidence in the voters of this country. Most MPs have to be dragged kicking and screaming to apologise.
Not one single opponent can now use this against her. She has closed this issue herself, without any cover up. Other politicians take note.
75. sneckedagain:
I agree he was criticising Murphy, but I still have little time for religious leaders who one hand preach tolerance and understanding, and on the other insist on segregation of schoolchildren based on religion.
And to be honest, does anyone really pay attention to Murphy? Most Scots are unaware who he is.
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62. InfrequentAllele2
"The Sermon on the Mount, according to Jim I'm a pal of Jesus Murphy
1. And seeing the photo opportunity, he went up onto the podium: and when he was set, the reporters came unto him:
2. And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3. Blessed are the wealthy: for we shall enrich them at the expense of the poor.
4. Blessed are they that bully: for their accusers shall be scorned.
5. Blessed are the bankers: for the people shall inherit their debt.
6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after Parliamentary expenses: for their trough shall be filled.
7. Blessed are the vengeful: for they shall obtain approving headlines in the Sun.
8. Blessed are the hypocrites: for they are made in the image of Gordon.
9. Blessed are the warmongers: for they shall be found innocent by the inquiry we set up.
10. Blessed are they who lie and deceive for Labour's sake: for theirs is the electoral register.
11. Blessed are our friends in the media, for when men shall revile us, and condemn us, and shall express all manner of disgust at us, only attacks upon the SNP shall be reported. "
Great post. Thanks for the chuckle.
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57. wrote
"#47 romeplebian- evening, yes indeed the labour party have shot themselves in the foot so many times in the last few weeks alone it's a wonder there is any of them still able to stand!"
and in reply:
60 wrote: "With no toes left he'll be able to put both feet in his mouth at the same time."
No he wont be able to put both feet in his mouth. Mr Grey, has been left legless by Scottish Labour's increasingly threadbare arguments against alcohol pricing bill.
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73. cynicalHighlander
"#71 wrong link
Herald Media"
Thank you. I just wanted to mention to The Herald (of Doom) that I will grace them with page views when they apologize to their readers for shoddy reporting and for stating in repeated editorials that readers had no right to question such bias.
No. And no.
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75. sneckedagain
"A lot of people missing the point here.
The cardinal is not mixing up politics and religion. Jim Murphy is.
The cardinal was merely kindly pointing out for those who hadn't noticed that Jim Murphy was seeking to use religion to increase his electoral support and that Jim Murphy, who has voted in Parliament in favour of things that he implies to his constituents he opposes, is a hypocrite.
I suspect Jim knows he is losing his seat. I suspect also that a not inconsiderable number of Labour people associated with Labour's group in the Scottish Parliament are not hugely unhappy about this. "
I have to agree. Once Jim Murphy broached the subject of religion, the Cardinal had every right to respond with his own opinion. I'm not even a citizen of Scotland and I give opinions. He certainly has such a right and if it is considered newsworthy, so be it.
I would disagree with the man on almost every imaginable point except that Jim Murphy is a hypocrite.
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81. deducted4points
"What lies?
Ms Sturgeon added: "In short, I assisted a constituent in good faith and for what I considered to be the right reasons, but in doing so I did get some things wrong and for that I am sorry."
She said sorry!
Do you enjoy being the typical arrogant blinkered Nat?"
Not being a nationalist that's a silly remark although I don't mind being called one. I'll proudly associate with my cybernat friends.
Ms. Sturgeon said that she should not have used the word mistake in the letter or suggested considering an alternative to incarceration since the court would consider that anyway.
That is a LONG way from the entire letter being a "mistake".
Do you enjoy being a blinkered cyerbrit?
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81. deducted4points
"Ms Sturgeon added: "In short, I assisted a constituent in good faith and for what I considered to be the right reasons, but in doing so I did get some things wrong and for that I am sorry."
She said sorry!
Do you enjoy being the typical arrogant blinkered Nat?"
By the way, I didn't thank you for publishing the lady's very graceful comment. It shows her and the SNP (and the cybernats you so hate) in excellent light. More than can be said for the raving cyberbrits who wanted her lynched. =)
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And a great post from Will Patterson.
Do read. He pretty much nails it.
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Just watched Brewer on Newsnicht trying to outdo Campbell over Sturgeon, having clearly taking lessons in bullying from former denizens of No.10 (and allegedly current ones too).
If you missed it live, do have a sick-bag handy if you watch it on the iPlayer.
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Nicola, your a fiesty little lass! well done!.
Should prisoners be allowed to vote? or should they remain castout and dumped into the firery pits of hell?.
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Hello folks.I couldn't sign on here as Conan the Librarian.Strange.
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Standards Commissioner's report and Deputy First Minister's performance not worthy of a mention today then, Brian? Brian? Hello? Brian? Anybody? Hello?... Tomorrow then, I look forward to reading your comments re. these issues tomorrow. Or am I looking in the wrong place? Help me please somebody if that is indeed the case.
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Brewer was sweating like mad, his lips curling and the questions coming thick and fast and thick. A sick bag would be most appropriate if you have to watch it. I am having to curb myself from saying the interview looked like a personal vendetta as far as Brewer was concerned. All in all a very damning interview from the BBC. Did some one mention kangaroo courts and trial by media?
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#82
So having children go to a variety of different schools is "segregation".
That'll come as a bit of a surprise to most of the world.
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90. Brownedov
"Brewer on Newsnicht"
It wasn't just that, it was how he looked. Heavily sweating and really excited.
Nicola's a bonnie lass, but I found his panting rather off putting.
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92. ConantheLibertarian
Have you considered that you may have been cloned? I think it was the Hootsmon who first broke the story of Dolly the sheep! :-)
If you are Pseudographia - Respect!
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#70 JRMacClure
Then maybe you could enlighten me. How do you know what to criticise them for if you don't read their news items? Don't tell me you buy the printed version.
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I knew Nicola would make a good job with her statement. The lass is a richt wee stoater and a great minister. What has come as a big surprise is that, you know who, has NOT yet demanded the Pope and Archbishop's resignation, (mind you there's time yet).
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97
Either that or I signed up one night when(are you allowed to say naughty words on here?)drunk.
But I prefer the conspiracy theory...
Thanks oldnat, and thanks to all the people on here who link to me:¬)
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18 Oldnat ... You may be 'old' but you were quickest off the mark with this !!! ... However, there's an unpleasant odour (almost a fishy smell) about the nature of the responses from SNP supporters - basically taking the line that the Nippy Sweetie 'performed well' in parliament when making her apology, so that's all right then - but make no (further) mistake, this was an apology for deliberately using certain words to attempt to influence a decision, one that she had exactly no business attempting to influence (this by her own, carefully worded, admission) ... The defence that the courts would 'probably' (again, her own word as just used in the interview on Newsnight) be considering all options anyway holds precisely no water; recall the moment in (I think) 'Twelve Angry Men' when the jurors are invited NOT to think of a blue elephant (try it now) ... Ten days ago the Nippy One was palpably crestfallen as her boss worked up that lather of righteous indignstion and quivering froth for which he is rapidly becoming risible; today, calm was restored ... Of course she did nothing wrong (illegal, morally unpalatable or overtly offensive) but she did (I believe, on balance, having taken time to consider it, without the benefit of a recess) deliberately and knowingly employ the dark arts (in which she is formally qualified) to a murky end ... Perhaps only the court of public opnion can properly pass a verdict on this ...
And here, that apologist in chief - EH - wasted no time in leaping uninformed into the debate; EH, your very well directed scorn at those who frame poorly already dimly formed opinions has, on this occasion, exposed your immaturity ... Like that other leaper (a Salmond) you should have watched the birdie ...
But it's all theatre ... A deliberate attempt was made to tip the scales of justice (with no apology for the piscine metaphor), which would be bad enough for a common (and many are very common) or garden MSP but for the DFM is frankly fishy ... Troubled waters indeed; where's that new bridge ??? ...
Meanwhile the descent continues; liver disease, it was last night reported (sotto voce), has increased 500 times (or somesuch ridiculously infeasible amount) since this morning and apparently no child leaves Primary School able to walk in a staight line (far less write down the general equation of one, or spell 'straight') ... And we're drowning in lard too (achieving a new, best ever 2nd place in the World Rankings for Obesity) ... Result !!! ...
Is there not a handful of simple measures that might fix all this ??? ...
1. Ban Chip Shops from using anything other than vegetable oil
2. Close down Greggs
3. Criminalise kebabs
4. Impose a steep levy on sweets
5. Reverse evolution ...
Simples !!! ...
There's squalor in every town and squalid behaviour in every parliament ...
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#101
"Meanwhile the descent continues"
Yes we have noticed!
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Here's a thing! As Ms Sturgeon has apologised for her percieved error, will we hear, "I'm sorry", from Jack, The Lad, McConnell for his court letter and, of course, from Gordon Brown for his? I'd guess neither will do so, but if they do, doubt it will be done so well as by Ms Sturgeon.
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101. The_Concept_Of_Mind
To use a quote that I used previously "To err is human - to forg(iv)e Devine".
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95. At 11:41pm on 24 Feb 2010, sneckedagain wrote:
#82
"So having children go to a variety of different schools is "segregation".
That'll come as a bit of a surprise to most of the world."
------------------------------------------
No, the Catholic Church has in recent years, including a statement in my local paper which caused an uproar, had senior members being insistent - and I mean insistent - that catholic schoolchildren should not have to mix with non-catholics. That certainly was the case about 18 months ago or so and the learned gentleman had to be an apology in my local paper.
No state funded school should be operated on religious lines - ever.
And politicians such as Murphy should keep totally out of religion in public.
There are still a minority of idiots in this country who are bigoted, yet we still have an education system which allows these divisions and attitudes to remain. And we have politicians who like to play the religious card when some of their actions are certainly not what is taught in their own religion.
-------------------------------------
101. The_Concept_Of_Mind:
Don't give people ideas. One recent report has suggested that sweeties be taken away from shop counters. Imagine the scene, wee boy goes into the newsagent:
"Got any, ahem, apples?"
"Would you like one of these, or something a bit stronger?"
"OK, how about some puff candy?"
"That will be two pounds, and if anyone ever asks, I know nothing."
Wee boy leaves the shop and is immediately pounced upon by the health police.
A little bit of truth behind this, one primary school a few years ago started checking the contents of packed lunches. That was until they received several letters from solicitors.......
What's wrong with chips anyway?
------------------------------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8533922.stm
It would have been nice if the BBC had done some research, and found out about the fiasco that was the secondary school building programme in East Kilbride (part of South Lanarkshire).
Schools so far behind schedule pupils stayed a year longer in the old one.
Heating and ventilation breaking down or uncontrollable.
Contractors taken off another school to ensure one was built on time, otherwise about a thousand pupils would have been without a school.
Fume cupboards in science labs with no instructions, therefore staff not allowed to use them
Inadequate public transport STILL not sorted.
Two years to finally sort out a drop off point at the school.
Massive congestion around the school as roads totally inadequate.
Two old schools that took months to start demolishing, resulting in numerous fires caused by youths. Amazingly no one was hurt.
And all in the name of PFI.
And before the moderators panic, all of this has been published. Try an FOI to the council or speak to the EK News.
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104. At 00:29am on 25 Feb 2010, oldnat wrote:
101. The_Concept_Of_Mind
To use a quote that I used previously "To err is human - to forg(iv)e Devine".
-----------------------------
Was he not an American drag artist singer? :p
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106. enneffess
Now that, I certainly wouldn't know! :-)
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98. hamish42
"Then maybe you could enlighten me. How do you know what to criticise them for if you don't read their news items? Don't tell me you buy the printed version."
I read the inflamed and insulting editorials. That was the end of the line for me when they informed readers that they must be "hysterical" to criticise their precious "news" paper. I wouldn't buy their print edition any more than I'll give them page views online and I won't criticise them since I don't read them.
I wanted to point out the little tidbit that I do NOT expect them to cover or cover fairly about the First Minister and Deputy First Minister having done nothing wrong and demand an apology to reader and the government. I don't expect to get it obviously, but it felt good to send it.
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101. The_Concept_Of_Mind
"A deliberate attempt was made to tip the scales of justice (with no apology for the piscine metaphor)"
You're right. And Jack McConnell, MSP, succeeded in doing so by getting the charges against the miscreants dropped!
A scandal!
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108. JRMacClure
PS. You no doubt have not noticed that I no longer criticise The Scotsman coverage and that is for exactly the same reason. I won't add to their income stream by rewarding them for biased coverage. That means I can't comment on the lies and bias in their reporting but I consider denying them any reward for what they are doing to journalism more important.
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"39. At 5:07pm on 24 Feb 2010, Wansanshoo wrote:" No I wasn't being serious as said by JRMacClure @ post 44. (Thanks J :o))
I was being highly cynical of Murphy and his party, because when the Glasgow NE came about they were keeping there distance with one hand but welcoming them with the other, . . . if you do . . . if you don't, which I think is the case with the Labour party in Scotland, they know there against the ropes and are very willing and able to punch below the belt, then claim that they didn't do it but it was someone else, then say that the rules should be changed so that no one can punch below the belt, then claim they didn't know they were punching below the belt, even if a document were to be found saying they were going to punch below the belt and so on and so forth.
In saying that the Orange Order see themselves as a faith per say as the basis of the modern Orange Order is the promotion and propagation of "biblical Protestantism" and the principles of the Reformation. As such the Order only accepts those who confess a belief in a Protestant religion. Also it is a very overtly political organisation as we have had them moving from urging their supporters to back the Conservatives, to backing Labour to tip the balance against the SNP in SNP strongholds.
Aslo reported in the Herald and I think mentioned again by the Grand Master of the Orange Lodge during the Glasgow NE Election, was that the Orange Order in Scotland is threatening to transform itself into a Protestant paramilitary organisation if the SNP ever win a mandate for Scottish independence.
This was reported by the Sunday Herald back in 2001 in a taped interview Jack Ramsay, the Grand Secretary of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland. He claimed Orange men who found themselves threatened with life in an independent Scotland would turn into an underground force, which would not rule out a recourse to arms, in a bid to preserve their Britishness.
The Orange Order need to be addressed as if they were Al-Qaeda in their way of thinking.
Also the way things were handled during SturgeonGate or what ever you wish to call it, Labour in Scotland started to move from the Sectarianism card to the Racist card, claiming that Sturgeon was only writing the letter to sway the Muslim/Asia vote.
Also I can see why some people claim that the media isn't being overtly anti-SNP, when they read articles, but as many people here and else where have tried to point out, and I in turn will point out, is that we are now living in a sound bite world and when you are on the move or in a hurry all you do is look at the headline of a story, and as many people on here will testify, that most headlines covering stories that could be seen as political do their best to convince people before they have even read the article, that it is a negative story about the current Scottish Government or if it is a financial based story that it will be, from the headline, perceived to be negative about Scotland as a whole.
Rant over. Enjoy the rest of the "Blog".
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110. At 01:53am on 25 Feb 2010, JRMacClure wrote:
That's the way I feel also about my local paper The Lennox Herald, I use to buy it to keep up with local news and for job hunting, but I wont even visit their website now because the paper gives Jackie Ballie free reign in the paper and local Labour party in Scotland activists free reign in their letters pages.
No one should say it is bad to have principles.
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111. MrJingles
"This was reported by the Sunday Herald back in 2001 in a taped interview Jack Ramsay, the Grand Secretary of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland. He claimed Orange men who found themselves threatened with life in an independent Scotland would turn into an underground force, which would not rule out a recourse to arms, in a bid to preserve their Britishness.
The Orange Order need to be addressed as if they were Al-Qaeda in their way of thinking."
Considering the history of the Orange Order in Ireland, I'm not sure that this is a threat to brush off. However, I wanted to check the accuracy of the comment. Here is a link to an archive of that very shocking article:
http://www.mail-archive.com/kominform@lists.eunet.fi/msg08181.html
And let me remind you, this is the organization from which the British Labour Party is accepting support:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/news/Orange-Order-mobilise-to-defend.5743358.jp
So now we know EXACTLY the kind of company the British Labour Party keeps.
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113. JRMacClure
PS. For some reason the above link doesn't work correctly although it's all there. I'll re-paste it.
http://www.mail-archive.com/kominform@lists.eunet.fi/msg08181.html
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Ah it's the @ symbol that's causing the problem. Well, if you want to read the text of the original article, do a copy and paste. It's from before The Herald was purchased and shoved into bed with Labour but not from their website. It shows the Orange Order for exactly what they are if people didn't already know. One suspects they could give our KKK a run for their money.
Scary people and that Labour does not repudiate them says a great deal about what they will do to hold onto power.
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Mr Jingles & Mr Maclure.
The Labour party are as corrupt as the Orange Order is secterian, I condemn them both.The theists who hide behind the Crimen Sollicitationis document to cover up child rape on a global basis are every bit as evil.
There is no surprise in a corrupt political party seeking support from either secterianists or child rapists.
They all deserve each other.
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#115 JRMacClure
The very shocking article.
The entire URL has to be, between the quotes. By the way I agree.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I see the story regarding the fundraising lunches and how there was nothing wrong with them has disappeared from the bbc in Scotland site infact from anywhere ,don’t see any comment in the herald.
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Are there no loud cheers for that star BBBC Scotland reporter winning an award for the tale of Mr Megrahi?
Thought not!
Who votes for these people ?
Not the public that is for sure.
That only leaves the luvvies to vote for each other ,massaging each others egos and telling each other what a great job their doing.
Sick bucket please!
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Superstition should have no place in politics. The Cardinal is of course entitled to believe what he wishes but it always concerns me when politicians pander to people who believe unsourced material contradicted by all modern science (and historical documents).
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Referendum wording to be revealed.
''Labour, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are all currently opposed to a referendum being held, and it is unlikely to get through parliament.''
'Currently' is the key word here, whatever happened to 'Bring It On'?
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#115
Not sure if this is accurate or not, but I have consistantly heard that the KKK were founded in the southern states of the US by gentlement of Scottish or highland descent to protect their "scottish" way of life. Hence the symbol of the burning cross.
Very apt comparison with the orange order.
John
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116. Wansanshoo:
What about a religious organisation that protects paedophile priests? (Moderators, it has been published by media organisations and the organisation themself accepted responsibility).
No religious group should have any influence whatsoever in politics.
All these arguments about religion and politics is simply going to cause division. Murphy should know better. And so should the Cardinal.
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120. At 08:17am on 25 Feb 2010, tamO wrote:
I see the story regarding the fundraising lunches and how there was nothing wrong with them has disappeared from the bbc in Scotland site infact from anywhere ,don’t see any comment in the herald.
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The BBC had it on this site for two days. How long do you expect them to keep it there? Most people don't care.
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117. Roll_On_2010:
Rather scary, and highly probable.
But this is what happens when governments allow parades which promote sectarianism.
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Given that I am usually quite critical of Reporting Scotland for the way in which they present information in such a manner as to disadvantage the SNP, I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that they reported the story that Lunchgate was basically a nonsense by Labour.
I did not expect that.
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125 enneffess
''The theists who hide behind the Crimen Sollicitationis document to cover up child rape on a global basis are every bit as evil.''
I thought (above) covered this ?
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124. john
"Not sure if this is accurate or not, but I have consistantly heard that the KKK were founded in the southern states of the US by gentlement of Scottish or highland descent to protect their "scottish" way of life. Hence the symbol of the burning cross.
Very apt comparison with the orange order.
John"
Please don't blame the Scots for everything. The founding of the KKK had nothing to do with protecting a "Scottish" way of life and if the original leader was of some Scottish descent (Nathan Bedford Forrest is not an identifiably Scottish name to me, sounds a bit more English if it matters) so are a substantial portion of the American population.
The KKK was formed to enforce racial oppression not which is not ANY "Scottish way of life" that I know of. There are resemblances between the sectarian hatred and oppression in Ireland and the racial hatred in the US though, in my opinion.
I have no reason to believe that the burning cross has any association with Scotland. Has it ever been the practice to burn crosses there? It's not a Scottish custom I've ever heard of.
Certainly, I can't imagine that Scots of ANY religious persuasion want a resumption of sectarian warfare in their country as represented by this reprehensible organization.
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126. enneffess
"How long do you expect them to keep it there? Most people don't care."
How long was the accusation that they did something wrong there? More than two days, that's for sure.
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Someone once commented that David Livingstone didn't discover the Victoria Falls as the Africans knew they were there all along.
Isn't it the same with Glenn Campbell finding out that Megrahi was about to be released as it would was going to be announced anyway. So how does that justify an award?
#108
Yes I was also inflamed enough to send a condemnation to the Herald.
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I think the burning cross did originate in Scotland, but afaik with no racial connotations and with a fair bit of mythologising from Sir Walter Scott (like so many things)
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Alex Salmond will this morning publish the Independence Referendum Bill consultation document . The proposal is for a referendum with two questions on two separate ballot papers, and mirrors the approach of 1997 referendum on the Scottish Parliament.
You can see copies of the Bill, the proposed questions and ballot paper here.
THE QUESTIONS
The first question asks about making the Scottish Parliament responsible for more of the issues currently dealt with by the UK. Because there is no consensus about what form this further devolution should take the consultation asks for views about how this should be framed. It offers two alternatives:
the transfer of most responsibilities to the Scottish Parliament, including over the economy and employment, but leaving issues like defence, the currency, foreign relations and the crown at Westminster; or
the limited proposals for financing the Scottish Parliament published last year by the Calman Commission.
The second question asks about extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament to enable Independence to be achieved.
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I'm not a religious person but I'm sick of the religious discrimination still blighting Scotland. The people who keep stirring it up by claiming RC schools are the problem are simply ignorant of the true facts. RC schools have never been closed to other faiths since they came under state control as the several, "Education ACTs, (Scotland), prove. Here are the true facts :-
The 1870 Education Act set up the Parish school System. The 1872 ACT changed this to the School Board System. The 1872 Act was fundamentally different from England and Wales. The 1870 Parish system was run by charities, faith groups and private tutors. The dominant agencies were then the Presbyterian religious institutions. This was seen as secularisation of the education system. However,the Presbyterian churches assumed the state schools would still remain as Presbyterian schools after the new act.
Before 1872 the Catholic communities ran their own schools because Irish Catholic communities suffered great discrimination. So the Catholic Church provided education for their poor people who were excluded from the mainstream in the communities they lived in. In 1860 the Argyll Commission found few examples of Catholic children being educated in the state funded parish schools. Anyway, The Catholic & Episcopalian schools did not join the state system of 1872 and still remained outwith the state system. i.e., they still belonged to the Catholics.
After the First World War, 1918, The Government attempted to raise the education standards and wanted state support for Catholic schools to achieve equality of provision. To do so they had to include them in full state funding. To bring Catholic Schools into the state education system the 1918 Act guaranteed these rights for the Catholic community, [remember that, (particularly in the West of Scotland), the discrimination saw adjacent villages and towns as Catholic & Protestant].
Catholic schools were to be fully funded by the state. They would be open to inspection by Her Majesty's Inspectors;
As public schools, Catholic schools were to be open to all, but provided primarily to serve the needs of the Catholic community;
The Church was expected to approve all teachers in Catholic schools as to their 'religious belief and character';
The local education authority was to appoint, with the approval of the church, a supervisor for religious education in Catholic schools.
So there are the true facts. When Catholic Schools came under state control they had belonged to the Catholic people. The 1918 ACT shows that they were NEVER Before under state controlled AND afterwards they were then OPEN TO ALL – they are still open to all now.
This shows that, far from the Catholic schools discriminating against non-Catholics, those who claim they do, are the ones doing the discrimination.
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I notice that an Orca has killed its keeper.
Sorry though I am that someone has died,I am also sorry to see such a huge, intelligent animal kept in a puddle for the benefit of gawping punters.
I have grudging admiration for Animal Parks and their programmes saving the near extinct.
I have never liked zoos or circuses with big animals being whipped into ridiculous postures for our pleasure.
Now that I have posted something totally off topic, may I add that when I feel politically down a visit to several bloggers like Subrosa , Dark Lochnagar , Fitaloon , many more and especially the wonderful , lunatic called Conan, cheers my soul immensely!
Enjoyed Alex Salmonds presentation this morning, liked the bear traps ,dug with consummate ease!
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#130
The burning cross was a method of calling a clan together in the highlands.
Did a brief bit of research on the internet (not most reliable I know), but is seems that the scottish connection was espoused in the 1915 book "birth of a nation" which told a romantiscised story of the birth of the first KKK. So still not sure of its validity.
What I do know is that coming from glasgow, I do know some bigoted people of an orange persuasion, who are proud to be called bigoted, proud that the first orange lodge was founded somewhere in renfrewshire, and proud that the KKK was formed to defend their values. They will also tell you hitler's real name, and probably celebrate his birthday. Says all you really need to know about them.
The above is part of the reason I distrust all organised religions.
John
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I'm a touch bemused by this suggestion of a link between Scotland and the penchant by the KKK to burn large crosses. As to why they burn them I really don't know and perhaps someone resident in those parts may be able to enlighten us.
In Scotland there was supposedly a tradition of sending round a "fiery cross" to rally the clans; a theme popular not only with Sir Walter Scott but with Robert Louis Stevenson. In reality to the best of my knowledge this was a literary adaptation of the rules of hot trod (pursuit).
Essentially it was permissable to cross the border in hot pursuit of villains, providing banners were displayed in daylight, or a burning peat or other torch carried on a lance, ie; no attempt was made at concealment. At the same time all law abiding persons seeing the Warden and his cavalcade hurrying past, were obliged to saddle up and follow them.
If a highland version existed it differed only in that the 16th century equivalent of a blue flashing light and wee-wahs was carried by somebody on foot.
Either way its a long way removed from planting a large cross in the ground and setting fire to it amidst all sorts of dubious ceremony
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I have to agree with the sentiment that the Newsnight Scotland interview was sickening. when McConnell had written defending a couple of tearaways who assaulted and threatened an A & E nurse and Brown interfered in a case of a junkie growing drugs in his attic far more in quantity to have been for his own use, the fraud case pales into insignificance. All the programme proved is how biased the unionist media is.
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#136
Not all zoos are bad. Zoos have changed a lot recently. They do a lot of good work preserving endangered species. They also do a lot of unheralded work on animal welfare. A good example is the work being done by edinburgh zoo and the highland wildlife park on the genetic makeup of some very rare indigenous species (eg the Scottish wildcat). They are using DNA studies to try to get a genetically pure breeding population of wildcats (that has not been contaminated by the DNA of the domestic cats) so that the species can be preserved. This can only be done in captivity as the population in the wild cannot be isolated.
Like you I find the sight of animals in crampt enclosures vile.
John
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129. Wansanshoo:
Sorry, was speed reading this morning as had to go out!
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135. Auld Bob:
Catholic schools are open to all, but the priority goes to those of the faith. And the law may make it open to all, but cardinals and priests still come out with demands that there should be no mixing of faiths.
But if the schools are open to all, then what is the point of them?
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On Salmond's announcement of the referendum plans, I think he is being smart by giving the option of dev max, and also stating that he accepts full independence is not desireable to all.
Devmax is the way forward.
Some will argue only full independence will secure Scotland's future. if that is the case, then why, despite having an immensely unpopular government are people not out in the streets?
Support for the SNP is growing, but this is likely to be mainly down to their governance rather than a desire to split from the UK.
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135 Auld Bob
Given that you are athiest you may enjoy reading the Human Association's take on faith schools.
http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/religion-and-schools/faith-schools
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"There is no majority for a referendum in Parliament.There is no support in the country for independence.Independence isn't going to happen."
Tavish Scott's response to the Referendum consultation document.
He is correct in saying there is no majority in Parliament for a referendum.Opinion polls however have consistently shown a substantial majority of voters wish a referendum.Any referendum is by definition a democratic right for a public to decide on a specific and important issue, usually constitutional in nature.A constitutional question cannot be settled by a general election result for obvious reasons.And a parliament has no right to settle such important matters itself.Anyone who thinks a legislature has that right is no democrat.Until they change their minds Tavish's party should be named The Scottish Illiberal Auto crats.
Tavish also states that there is "no support in the country for independence."Independence has polled consistently between 25% to 35% for years.Occasionally down to,but scarcely lower than 20%,and sometimes around the 50% mark.To say there is no support is tantamount to saying he doesn't wish to be taken as a serious politician by thinking people.
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#138
interesting, my sources have always at best been dubious. I have never heard definitively one way or the other, but have heard these stories from several different sources. But what is certain is that there are a fair few people out their who believe both the myth of the foundation of the KKK and the myth of fiery crosses in the highlands. I have never seen either dealt with in an authoritive history text, which is sad, as I believe that it is our own uncetainty about our own identity and history that impedes our forward progress.
John
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Wee Glenn's award:
Not sure exactly what the award is for - someone contacts you with a leak and you report it.
Interesting that the person chosen by whoever decided to leak the info (suspicions centre on London) was Glenn Campbell, it sugegsts that they were confident that Glenn would play ball.
We now know that the leak allowed the Unionists to begin their attack on MacAskill and we now know that Glenn eagerly joined in.
I've said it before that MacAskill was even accused of being the source of the leak - it would be interesting to see if these accusations were ever broadcast by wee 'Outrage'.
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Tavish Scott:
There is no support in the country for independence.
How do we describe these words?
A mistake? misrepresentation? false? lies?
It doesn't matter of couurse but what does matter is that the (BBC) journalists we pay to hold these people to account repeatedly allow these false assertions to be broadcast.
What's wrong with simply correcting these politicians?
Seriously, no need to even ask a hard question just point out that there is in fact considerable support for independence.
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141. enneffess
"Devmax is the way forward."
That's a fair enough position to take, though not mine.
"Some will argue only full independence will secure Scotland's future. if that is the case, then why, despite having an immensely unpopular government are people not out in the streets?"
We could ask the same for devmax or any other point along the spectrum.
"Support for the SNP is growing, but this is likely to be mainly down to their governance rather than a desire to split from the UK."
Your suppostition may or may not be correct, but how much of the snp support do you think would be left if the pro-indepenence snp supporters were removed from the picture?
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Can you think of anyone - anyone at all - in the Prime Minister's present circle who could conceivably adopt the role of Mephistopheles: the Prince of cunning, the champ of calculation, the lord of manipulation?
I assume you mean Peter Mandelson?
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afternoon , now that he has won an award, I wonder if Glen Campbell's next project is to assist Shereen Nanjiani as they search for the lost tribe "the silent majority of Scotland".
they might even coerce big ken McDonald and bring back Bob Wylie from the SPT surely they would find them. they must be somewhere ! doe's anyone know of one that lives in your street? Oh no wait a minute somebody else thought of that idea ,sorry.
Sid
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For Tavish Scott to say there is no support for independence means a third or so of the Scottish people are persona non grata with him.Truly disgraceful.In fact chilling is the word.The politics of Reinhard Heydrich and Felix Dzerzhinsky alike were based on such calculations.This man is no liberal.
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Tavish saying "there is no support for independence" has the same logic as me saying "There is no support for the Liberal Democrat party".
What polls there have been in fact show a higher support for independence than the Lib Dems.
Duhhhhhhhh.
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Referendum.
As a gambling man my money is on the Lib Dems to yield to overwhelming public pressure.
Your thoughts please fellow bloggers?
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149 sid, lol he could get together with Jim Murphy for the search.
"Glendiana Jones and the Viceroy Skull"
I'm off out into the street now with a bell to assist the search,
"Bring out yer Unionists....."
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Tavish had a good head of steam coming out of his ears at FMQ's today.
Alex Salmond looked as though he had been slammed by a marshmallow.
Alex got a very good report from Angus MacLeod.
I wish BBC Scotland would remove their man who insists in commenting during FMQ's. Don't they realise when he talks over an MSP that we can understand neither him nor the MSP. He doesn't add anything useful. He is totally irrelevant.
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It would be interesting to know what Tavish's secret strategy for the Liberals is.
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reasonable piece in the Caly Merc on the referendum bill by hamish macdonell. He basically lays out the facts of the matter.
John
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A wee prediction if you will allow?
If the Liberal (cough!) Democrats (cough!) do not support a referendum (that incidentally would almost certainly deliver their favoured position of Devolution Max) in the run up to the 2011 Scottish Election, they will be wiped out at that election and much of their evaporating support will move towards the SNP.
Win-Win for Alex. He either get LD support or LD votes.
Should be fun watching Tavish try to unravel that little conundrum. Or perhaps, more likely, whoever replaces Tavish after May 2010.
Alex is right - the General Election is critical. A strong, or even respectible SNP showing, coupled with a disappointing result from the LibDems or Labour could change things completely. Even the Tories may move towards a referendum if the parliament is delicately balanced.
Exciting times
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For anyone who hasn't noticed, there's a new thread up (about the referendum bill).
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