Cuts on the agenda
UPDATE AT 1646: In his speech, David Cameron gives Alex Salmond a right skelping - then promises to work consensually with him, should he end up in government.
Not the contradiction it might seem. Mr Cameron's tactic is to attempt to exclude the SNP from this upcoming UK General Election, to suggest that they are somehow irrelevant.
In particular, he notes that Mr Salmond will not be entering Downing Street.
In response, the Nationalists say that they can play a role at Westminster - if they have a sufficiently substantial bloc of MPs.
His second message - that of consensus - is also aimed at Scots voters.
He believes that voters like to hear, especially in a period of economic difficulty, that parties are prepared to collaborate.
More precisely, this message is an attempt to counter the argument that the Tories would have no mandate to govern Scotland, should they have very few Scots MPs.
In essence, Mr Cameron is offering a shared mandate: reserved issues controlled by the PM, devolved issues in the hands of the FM.
In that respect, he is attempting to make a virtue out of political necessity.
The other big message from Mr Cameron was one of change: change in his own party, a departure from the Thatcherite past.
The Tory strategy has been, firstly, to stress the personal leadership of David Cameron; secondly, to promise spending cuts to tackle the deficit; thirdly, to stress that those cuts would be early but not savage.
They know that, to reinforce that, they need to persuade people that those cuts would not particularly harm the poorest and weakest in society.
They know that is a vulnerable point for the Tories: that, while people might accept the need for constraint, they remain concerned that the Tories would apply these cuts in a heartless way. Hence, that message of change, hence that talk of solidarity.
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Pre-empting the Winter Olympics (go, curlers), the Tories are holding their annual conference today in an ice rink: the one in Perth. And their economic message is comparably chilly.
Speaker after speaker, each one a Westminster candidate, all warning that an incoming Conservative government will focus upon cutting spending rather than increasing taxation in order to tackle the budget deficit.
On Good Morning Scotland, Michael Gove makes the same point while stressing that cuts would not be "insensitive". Translated, that of course means that the Tories would seek to minimise the vote-losing potential. Might be a tricky gig as it is for the other parties.
Would Scotland be penalised in particular through scrapping the Barnett Formula? Tories say they'd seek, eventually, to pursue a needs-based review of expenditure across the UK - but would also seek to ensure that Scotland is not particularly disadvantaged.
Again, that might be a tricky challenge although, as I have written here before, I think that the Cameronians are chilling somewhat on the early enthusiasm for big change on this issue.
Cuts, though, there will be, both in Scotland and throughout the UK. But Tories insist they'd protect the health service - and challenge the Scottish government to do likewise, health being devolved.
Another message delivered by David Mundell, the Shadow Scottish Secretary, concerned promoting economic growth with policies targeted on stimulating business, for example by trimming tax on the first 10 people employed by a small firm.
Mr Mundell drew warm applause for an attack upon the SNP. Alex Salmond has forecast that his party will take 20 Westminster seats - and hold the balance of power. David Mundell ridiculed each of these ambitions in turn.
Stand by for David Cameron this afternoon.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~05~RS~)
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Not sure that this is the story of the day, Brian, but two cheers for putting Mundell on the spot over the Tories' right to govern Scotland in your wecast with him yesterday. Would that your colleagues on Newsnight were so assiduous in questioning Labour representatives in general and Mr Murphy in particular.
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Just to let everyone know that Newsnet Scotland passed through the 700 total for subscribers yesterday - with ease !!
It may have been missed this morning but The Cally has started removing comments from certain threads. The reasons given are that they constitute a personal attack on a journalist.
The comment I had removed will follow this comment.
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Brian
I am tempted not to post as the Torys are a non story in Scotland.
You might have been better to blog on why this particular dog doesn't bark in the Scottish night.
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Here is the comment that The Cally deemed an attack on one of their journalists:
Cally Editor Stewart Kirkpatrick wrote [of 'lunchgate' and Nicola Sturgeon's letter to the judge in the fraud case]:
"We’d be derelict in our duty as journalists not to write about them."
I responded:
I would suggest that simply following an embelished smear story is not your duty, nor is it journalism. One has to ask why Labour stories that are equally bad, if not worse, are not reported in the same fashion – if at all.
One of the stories Newsnet Scotland recently reported was the BBC apology to Alex Neil after Catriona Renton attributed views to the SNP politician that he had not expressed.
The broadcast happened in the midst of the Glasgow North East by-election but the apology was never publicly acknowledged by the BBC nor was the broadcast corrected.
Ms Renton’s background as a Glasgow Labour councillor, a Labour election candidate and her links to Scottish Labour MSP’s made this a potentially huge story.
It seems then that the definition of a story is one that emanates either from a Labour press release or a national Scottish newspaper headline. If that is the case then we do not need the Caledonian Mercury to report exactly the same news.
What is clear is that there has been a sudden upping of the ante against the SNP by our main stream media. Is this purely down to a Unionist leaning, is it due to the forthcoming general election or has the recent consultation over public notices brought this about?
Whatever the reason, smear stories have replaced political analysis and mature debate. This is the third smear against Nicola Sturgeon in a fortnight. The lunch story was the second and a four year old signing of an assistant’s expenses form was the first.
Write about them by all means but perhaps a nod that something is going on within the Scottish media might actually serve to convince your readers that you are not just another newspaper parroting a unionist smear story.
You might also like to inform us if you agree with Iain Gray’s suggestion that resignations should follow any attempts at helping constituents who fail the Iain Gray ‘deserving’ test.
Would you like to be one of societies outcasts, a minority or someone who is persecuted if Iain Gray was your MSP?
The Asian aspect of these two smears has also been ignored by the media – imagine if it were Nick Griffin mounting these attacks instead of Iain Gray ...
My comment was removed.
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Westminster will cut the Scottish grant - no matter who is in power.
So far we have been told by the media that the SNP are introducing the cuts, now that it is the Tories.
The truth is that Labour have destroyed the economy but the Scottish media cannot bring themselves to acknowledge it.
This little nation at the very least needs full fiscal autonomy in order to try to stimulate our own economy and build for the future.
Independence from these London centric parties would be better though.
Mundell laughing at the number of seats the SNP may or not win at the forthcoming election is pretty ironic given the projections for his own party.
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I just can't be bothered saying anything about the tories (apologies Dean).
John
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At the time of writing my comment at number four is still awaiting moderation.
Not to worry, if it doesn't appear here then I'll post it on the blog.
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"Mr Mundell drew warm applause for an attack upon the SNP. Alex Salmond has forecast that his party will take 20 Westminster seats - and hold the balance of power. David Mundell ridiculed each of these ambitions in turn."
And the Tories are forecasting that they will take 11 seats in Scotland and regain some sort of political significance. An ambition that would be worthy of ridicule even if the party's reputation had not been trashed by the abysmal conduct of the Tory/BLP alliance at Holyrood.
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Call it what you will, but I had to search hard one day after the news broke about them putting Search and Rescue into private hands and relocating to Glasgow Airport.
Imagine my bewilderment when looking on the Glasgow and West portion of the BBC Scotland website today, the news section has been extended to make sure the story "Salmond backs Nicola Sturgeon over fraud plea" stays in view but wasn't done so for "'No U-turn' on search and rescue decision" the previous day.
Apparently the call for one political person to be sacked, is better news for BBC Scotland than the thought of 100 ordinary people loosing their jobs due to " . . . a decision by UK ministers to transfer Britain's search and rescue services (SAR) to a private consortium."
It has to be said that, without a shadow of a doubt, if you replaced "UK" with "SNP" in the above quote, it would of reported with more passion than to be left to slip away into to the realm of the local papers for the area.
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I listened to your big debate, Brian, "WOW" 2 exclusives in a week well done.
for those not listening ,shame on you, according to one of the panel the reason we see the media scrum and the labour push for the resignation of Ms Sturgeon is nothing but revenge over the sacking of Wendy Alexander!!!
how pathetic is that.
Sid
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#4 Online Ed: Your posts are becoming more tedious. Who are you to tell working journalists what they should publish, accuse them of perpetuating smears and insinuate that they are not proper journalists (like you?). Your letter to the Caledonian Mercury editor is nothing more than a partisan whinge about a perfectly legitimate news story that happens not to reflect your own views. As ever, you cannot concentrate on the matter in hand, preferring to list your catalogue of imagined past outrages as "evidence" of your rectitude.
Do you really imagine that your little blog combats what you regard as anti-SNP propaganda? You sound like "Outraged, of Tunbridge Wells" rather than a mature political commentator.
You seem to have endowed yourself with an air of authority, which I find entirely bogus like the ravings of the more febrile cyberNats.
Nobody is beholden to you. You are not entitled to free pulicity for your views. It is ludicrous for the Nats to continually demand a fair, unbiased media while a supporter like you is denying them in that ambition with some rabid, childish, but always self-important distortions of your own.
Sometime soon, I expect you to inform us that yet another media outlet has turned against the righteous and infallible SNP. Has the penny not dropped yet? The polls seem to have dropped. Could this be a backlash against fanatical adherence to a dying concept?
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Brian wrote: "Would Scotland be penalised in particular through scrapping the Barnett Formula? Tories say they'd seek, eventually, to pursue a needs-based review of expenditure across the UK - but would also seek to ensure that Scotland is not particularly disadvantaged."
Don't know if this last phrase was Brian's interpretation of what was said, or a verbatim statement, but to say Scotland would not be "..particularly disadvantaged.." means it might be disadvantaged to some degree. This, on top of all the other disadvantages that have been imposed on Scotland by the union might not go down too well with the electorate. Anyway when a politician wants something he will say anything to get it.
By all accounts Mr Mundell is under attack from some quarters of the Tory heirarchy and may not fulfill his ambition to be Scottish Secretary (coat on a shoogly peg). A nice reward for being loyal to the party and for being the only Scottish Tory MP at Westminster, but that's the Tories for you. Nice people!
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Is Salmond still forecasting winning 20 Westminster seats despite the SNP's collapse in support?
A few short months ago, the SNP were level with (and sometimes even ahead of) Labour in Westminster polling. Since then, support has collapsed to the point where they are ~14% behind. As it stands, they'll do well to maintain their current 7 seats.
And I am puzzled why Cameron has chosen to comment how he will work with the SNP after the GE, when it is looking increasingly likely that Labour will be back running Holyrood from next year.
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Brian I watched your interview on Mr Mundell, and I thought mmm Brian is doing his job, something I would like to see him doing to the other party members too, the SNP get more than their fair share of badgering so when will I see you interviewing in the same style to a Labour member? I have no problem if you personally who you support, just don't let it colour your interview style.
As regards to the Mercury snipping comments, I would be very worried if they go down the road of censoring comments, as long as nothing was libelous and could affect the Mercury they would be best to leave all comments , which would prove they have no hidden agenda or allegiances , it would also strengthen their claim to be independence.
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11. brigadierjohn
"Sometime soon, I expect you to inform us that yet another media outlet has turned against the righteous and infallible SNP. Has the penny not dropped yet? The polls seem to have dropped. Could this be a backlash against fanatical adherence to a dying concept?"
Hmm! Lost the plot a bit there, didn't you.
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Interesting to see the rabid Scotphobes have turned up again.
The smear campaign against Nicola Sturgeon is not a real news story and the journalists who have perpetuated the labour lies deserve to be named and shamed.
Including those at the BBBC.
You can not live in a democracy if the media is universally biased against certain parties. That is life in North Korea or Zimbabwe.
The people deserve access to truth somewhere. And if the tvpolltax funded BBBC will not provide it then they have no claim to my money any more. Not my opinion. It's the law.
Any real journalist would be ridiculing the hatred of the cyberslabs and pointing to the myriad of occasions when labour MP/MSP's have carried out exactly the same service for their constituents. The failure to do so is a clear dereliction of duty.
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Good to see your still rallying your troops with your hit and run tactics R.E.
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#15 Electric Hermit: Probably. It's a side-effect of trying to fit in with the hysteria of the Nats. :-)
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18. brigadierjohn
"It's a side-effect of trying to fit in with the hysteria of the Nats. :-)"
Grow up and try to take responsibility for your own hysteria.
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11. brigadierjohn
"Who are you to tell working journalists what they should publish, accuse them of perpetuating smears and insinuate that they are not proper journalists"
He is a reader and like any reader has EVERY right to do all three.
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13. Reluctant-Expat
"And I am puzzled why Cameron has chosen to comment how he will work with the SNP after the GE, when it is looking increasingly likely that Labour will be back running Holyrood from next year."
Keep dreaming, my dear. :)
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11. brigadierjohn
Aye Brig, Your desperation and frustration is coming out now big style. You really are bricking it that the people are beginning to see through the Unionist lies.
Please keep it up as it gives the rest of us a good laugh.
Btw Could it be that you are Maj Joyce that has just promoted yourself? The air of contempt that you exude seems familiar......
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13. Reluctant-Expat
"As it stands, they'll do well to maintain their current 7 seats."
First you point out how polls change over time. Then you make assumptions that rely on these same polls not changing at all. Desperation drives the unionist cabal to all manner of silliness.
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#19 Electric Hermit: Okay, I'm hysterical - and it's all my own doing. Great, I feel more grown up already.
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Re: 13. It is quite possible there will be hung parliament in Westminster, same as happened in 1979. This time Cameron wants the SNP to Chas enough money in his pocket to pay off the SNP - me thinks that he will simply NOT be able to afford it - but what is the alternative.
Maybe Alex will demand separation and the Oil Revenues and sit back and watch dear old England slide beneath their debt mountain.
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#20 JRM: And the editor has every right to bin it. You don't need to capitalise words for emphasis. It's the blog equivalent of shouting, or writing in green crayon with triple underscores.
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24. brigadierjohn
"Okay, I'm hysterical - and it's all my own doing. Great, I feel more grown up already. "
Acknowledging the problem is the first step on the road to recovery. There me yet be hope that you will be able to overcome the morbid and irrational fear of responsibility that makes independence such a horrifying prospect in your mind.
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18. brigadierjohn
"Probably. It's a side-effect of trying to fit in with the hysteria of the Nats. :-)"
One wondered how long it would take you degenerate back to your usual rabid cyberbrit persona. You've now answered that question with personal attack and political hyperbole. Good job showing your true colors. Thanks. =)
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#22 Teenie: There is no beginning to your maturity. No need for promotion to outrank a foot soldier of a retreating army.
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It is hard to disagree with the observation that the Scottish media is generally biased against the SNP. Even that respectable London publication The Economist (no friend of Scottish independence) recently noted this in a Bagehot column.
As far as I am concerned, the political story of the week is that Labour is now in favour of a constitutional referendum for the United Kingdom on voting reform, and in favour of a contitutional referendum for Wales on increasing the powers of the Welsh Assembly, but resolutely opposed to holding a constitutional referendum for (....wait for it, you guessed...) Scotland on the grounds that "the time isn't right" and "it is a distraction from the economy".
Yes, whatever, obviously right there. This farrago of hypocrisy should be mocked from the rooftops, but funnily enough most media outlets don't seem to mention it. (The Caledonian Mercury is an honourable exception.)
Another story that should be getting more coverage is how the Labour party of Donald Dewar campaigned for a Scottish parliament to address the country's problems, and now ten years later the very same Labour party is declining to take part in the parliamentary process with regards to alcohol (surely Scotland's number one problem), instead setting up its own parallel non-parliamentary "commission", instructed to come up with any proposal other than the one supported by an ever-increasing volume of international expert opinion. Surely this is the sort of thing the Tories were expected to do, if anybody? I guess Labour doesn't like devolution so much these days, for some reason I can't quite figure out.....
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I am suprised that certain 'Scots' individuals here are critical of the SNPs aim of presence of 20 MPs at Westminister, I understand if your against independence but the purpose of 20 MPs was to help defend against the cuts that will be imposed on Scotland and not for the purpose of forwarding independence.
Both Labour and the Conservatives are proposing cuts but surely we should be supporting the SNP and their aims to reduce the burden expected to be handed to Scotland after the next general elections?
You have a choice of cuts, cuts or a party that wants to reduce the inpacts at all costs?
It certainly does not make sense and I believe individuals really do show their prejudice against the SNP when criticising their goal of 20 SNP MPs.
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22. And how are you coming to your conclusion that "people are beginning to see through unionist lies"? The polls show continuing loss of support for the SNP. I'd be very happy to post them again if you wish!
My, the denial is strong in this one.
25. Unbelievable! Another nat who still can't grasp the FACT that all oil revenues are returned to Holyrood and still believes everything he is told by other nationalists! I wonder how many other nationalist lies you are gullible enough to believe?
Look, it's all here: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/06/18101733/9
Tell you what, here's the relevant paragraph:
"In 2007-08, the estimated fiscal balance in Scotland, that is the estimated current budget balance plus estimated net capital investment, was a deficit of £11.1 billion (9.8 per cent of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £10.4 billion (9.0 per cent of GDP) when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £3.8 billion (2.7 per cent of GDP) when an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue is included."
The denial is strong in this one too!
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#27 Electric Hermit: Such are the horrors of contemplating independence that my condition is, alas, terminal. But I'm grateful for your concern.
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#28 JRM: You're welcome.
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I wonder where all the new comers have went from the last blog...
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Quick question to everyone out there, is the GERS report taking into account not just the tax from oil but the tax for looking for it, taking it out of the ground, transferring it to land and refining it?
Excuse my ignorance but I'm sure I heard someone where that tax raised from north sea oil didn't start and end with just the oil itself?
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33. brigadierjohn
"Such are the horrors of contemplating independence that my condition is, alas, terminal."
The silver lining! A harbinger of the demise of ideological unionism.
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11. brigadierjohn
Sorry but i have to disagree. It is impossible for Greenockboy's posts to become more tedious, there is a ceiling of maximum tediousness which he has easily achieved.
Please don't use the term " mature political commentator" he is merely a party sycophant incapable of original thought.
Every story is an attack on the SNP, collusion, conspiracy are found at every turn. If he was in charge of the media then he would be very similar to the Iranian press agency.
Don't encourage him.
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#11 brigadierjohn
"a partisan whinge about a perfectly legitimate news story that happens not to reflect your own views"
Your point would have more validity had the article not been amended to include the text of Ms Sturgeon's letter after complaints about lack of balance had been made in the comments. To his credit, the editor has done this and responded to some criticisms, but the fact remains that the article in question still makes no mention neither of the MSPs' code of conduct nor Mr Gray's apparent avowal that he would neither keep it nor change the code.
And I note with disappointment that you are still unwilling to accept that acceptance of subsidy should bring with it some requirement for regulation.
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29. brigadierjohn
Easy old boy, your blood pressure is soaring. I'm quite happy to be a foot-soldier. We have lots of foot-soldiers. Lets see how many foot-soldiers your mob can put on the ground when it really matters eh? Then we'll see who is retreating.
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32. Reluctant-Expat
and the UK has wasted 1 Trillion from Oil revenues
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article4884.html
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#38 northhighlander: I didn't know Online Ed was Greenockboy. That explains a lot. Early last year, in my valedictory post before taking a year's Sabbatical I seem to recall describing him as part of the "Wild Bunch" of posters - the incorrigible and irredeemable fanatics. Right, no more encouragement.
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#37 Electric Hermit: In consideration of your kind concern for my health, let me reciprocate with unbounded joy that you have discovered a silver lining somewhere, anywhere. But I see storm clouds.
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#32 R-E
"In 2007-08, the estimated fiscal balance in Scotland, that is the estimated current budget balance plus estimated net capital investment, was a deficit of £11.1 billion (9.8 per cent of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £10.4 billion (9.0 per cent of GDP) when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £3.8 billion (2.7 per cent of GDP) when an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue is included."
Re-quoting these figures again just shows how financially illiterate you are R-E. Stop embarrassing yourself.
John
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#13 Reluctant-Expat
"I am puzzled why Cameron has chosen to comment how he will work with the SNP after the GE, when it is looking increasingly likely that Labour will be back running Holyrood from next year."
Last time you confided your political views to us, RE, you were a Tory newly converted from being a federalist, so I'm a bit puzzled at your being puzzled from your lofty perch in the Westminster village. Could it just be that Cameron doesn't plan a grand unionist coalition to bring down the Scottish Government before the end of the current Scottish parliament, in the hope that it will make his party less unelectable in the 2011 general election?
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33. brigadierjohn
"Such are the horrors of contemplating independence that my condition is, alas, terminal. But I'm grateful for your concern."
That means any and all of your posts are mere knee-jerk unionism.
Thanks. I won't bother reading them further.
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Media Headlines Today
Staunch Unionist Confessions.
Northhighlander:"Every story is an attack on the SNP"
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Tom @ 35
Back to their day jobs at the Hootsman,Retard and Herald?
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40. Teenie_frae_Twechar
"Easy old boy, your blood pressure is soaring. I'm quite happy to be a foot-soldier. We have lots of foot-soldiers. Lets see how many foot-soldiers your mob can put on the ground when it really matters eh? Then we'll see who is retreating.
"
It's interesting to see you admitting that all pretense at impartiality was nothing but pretense. One last question that you might want to answer.
What is it about Scotland standing on its own feet and taking care of itself like every other nation does or tries to do that so fills you with horror. Most consider this an honorable state of affairs and many have died to see that it was not taken away from them.
But an attachment to dependency is not unheard of in this world.
Good luck to you.
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49. JRMacClure
PS Apologies Teenie_frae_Twechar. That was intended to be in response to #29.
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So, the Tories will pursue a "needs-based review of expenditure across the UK".
It's got [almost] NOTHING TO DO WITH WESTMINSTER how and why Holyrood decide upon certain priorities.
The whole point of devolution was, supposedly, to allow local determination of actual 'needs.'
I gave up on watching "The Daily Politics" when Jenny Scott repeatedly pursued the line (when interviewing SNP representatives) that it wasn't fair for Scottish reseidents to get, for instance, free care for the elderly when English residents didn't - conveniently ignoring the far more salient question of WHY politicians were denying English residents such a provision.
If Cameron and his cohort at Westminster try to impose Tory policy throughout the UK by means of a funding formula which denies the Scots, Welsh and NIrish the ability to decide spending by addressing their own respective moralities, the Old Etonian will doubtless succeed - because he will be hastening the day when the UK and England are true synonyms.
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#39 Brownedov: A few days ago, you guys were extolling, with reservations I admit, the new publication. You cannot expect them to accede to your every whim. They, like the mainstream press, will get it wrong. I'm sure Labour and Tory apologists will tell them!
Regarding regulation, I'm sorry to disagree. The law of defamation and the NUJ Code of Conduct allow ample scope for holding newspapers to account. While the Code has serious flaws, I'm sure it would be the basis for any regulator's adjudications. Why set up another expensive quango?
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#40 Teenie: For courage in the face of overwhelming odds, I hereby promote you to Lance Corporal.
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#32 Reluctant-Expat
Same old fascination with the GERS, R-E, and the same old inability to admit the caveats they contain or even that they are statistical estimates rather than the accounts you have often claimed them to be. Interesting to note that in the snippet you've quoted alone, "estimated" appears four times!
However, just for a moment suppose they are correct and compare the "estimated" deficit with the 2007-08 one for the UK, would you?
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32. Reluctant-Expat
"when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue"
So even though most of the oil is in Scotland's waters Scotland only gets a PER CAPITA share of the North Sea revenue according to this. That means the rest of the UK gets 90% of it.
I believe THAT is called cooking the books. (cheating in some people's parlance)
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53. brigadierjohn
Now you really are getting desperate, old man.
You can only promote those you command.
We are in different armies.
Now away and take your medicine, we want you to stay alive long enough to watch the Union Flag being lowered for the last time over Edinburgh Castle.
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Amusing, how the North Sea oil is saving the UK but would leave an independent Scotland starving and in the cold. Funny that.
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Interesting to see what is happening at the Tory Conference. Cameron is in a very difficult position with regard to Scotland. The big question is - how can he work with the SNP when they have such totally opposed ideologies and Salmond will hardly be keen to return the favour?
The Tories say they favour tax cuts over increases in spending - this won't go down well in Scotland where there is a larger public sector which will be badly hit by spending cuts.
Salmond will no doubt milk this for all he can get if the Tories win in May, along with questionning the Tories "right to govern" Scotland if they end up with 10 seats or less here. The World Cup campaign in June is also likely to help his cause, as this always tends to be divisive, especially if England do well.
All of this adds up to a resurgence in support for the SNP during the course of the year. While the SNP may be in difficulties at the moment, Labour need to come up with some positive policies of how they would improve things if they were to be elected before they can really turn the tide of public opinion in Scotland. They also need to get away from the idea that they must automatically oppose everything the SNP does, when some of the SNP's ideas have been good ones (the minium price on alchohol being an example.) Labour have a chance in Scotland to take back the initiative and they musn't waste it!
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Interesting how the attacks on Nicola Sturgeon brought the ravening cyberbrits out in droves. It does liven the place up a bit. Interesting, also, how some are showing their true colors in vicious attacks and abandoning their pretense at reason and good will.
It does keep me amused during off moments.
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I have seen for the first time some sign that people a serious about a non payment campaign of the TV licence, well it’s about time, but we need to fan the flames,
I am not that clued up when it comes to setting up a website but I think one is needed plus leaflets and posters which people can use even if it means that all those with home printers can use them even if its only to get out to there own street.
The range of issues relating to the tv licence regarding Scotland are not restricted to the relationship between the British labour party and the bbc in Scotland, but if I was a member supporter or voter of a range of political parties here in Scotland then I would believe I would have a grievance SNP, Scottish Green party, Scottish Socialist Party , Solidarity, if anyone views the bbc news channel you will see today repeated advertising of a interview which is due to be broadcast on Sunday by Gordon brown on itv in my view this is a clear sign of collusion between the broadcasters and the labour party.
The bbc news channel has be used as propaganda channel for the labour and tory party for months, hell even if I was a British liberal I would be worried by this.
But the ranger of grievance is wider than the political arena, if any one has seen the program. seven ages of Britain apart for a brief mention of Iona there has been nothing but English history in the first two ages and there advertising there third one as Tudor Britain .
Someone up to get the ball rolling
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Teenie: Bet you got a fright at #49! The lady doesn't do irony. A light-hearted tit-for-tat between adversaries must look like daggers drawn to an outsider who has problems with the nuances of language and culture. She's in the huff now, so perhaps the knee-jerk comebacks will end?
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#55 JR
You have misread the quote. The last figure is the geographical share. I believe that the UK deficit for the same period was over 40 billion.
John
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58. edinchris
"Labour need to come up with some positive policies of how they would improve things if they were to be elected before they can really turn the tide of public opinion in Scotland. They also need to get away from the idea that they must automatically oppose everything the SNP does, when some of the SNP's ideas have been good ones (the minium price on alchohol being an example.) Labour have a chance in Scotland to take back the initiative and they musn't waste it! "
The question is can they turn away from the kind of politics they are now practicing which equates to nothing more than the politics of hatred.
I think this talk of armies and foot soldiers is a fair example of the kind of hatred that unionists show toward nationalists. It's rather sad and what brought me to posting on this and a couple of other Scottish/UK sites. I am still horrified when I see it.
You know the days of Culloden and Bannockburn are supposed to be over. It's SUPPOSED to be a matter of voting and the will of the people. One wonders what is so hard to take in about that by the unionists. They will give a vote to ANYONE except Scotland on the matter of a constitutional arrangement. They spew hatred even on the floor of the Scottish parliament.
What is it about independence that so fills people like BJ with horror, one has to wonder, and causes them to so attack their own compatriots.
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61. brigadierjohn
"A light-hearted tit-for-tat"
Ah yes... light hearted. Black face in the US was light hearted. Is that the kind of thing that you mean?
Please do educated me. After all, supposedly Americans are too stupid to understand.
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#56 Teenie: Or, slightly more likely, Alex Salmond being lowered by the neck? :-)
I have to get off the Magic Roundabout for a while. But may try shooting the sitting ducks later. :-)
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Hi All,
Cuts cuts and more cuts yes we know it is going to happen, with whatever party wins the GE.
We know we will suffer in this small country as the rest of the UK and again hindsight is a wonderful thing. I listened to Brian programme today I thought the "Sun" guy came across well, especially when he responded to the notion that Scotland would not have been able to bail out the banks if we were independent, by stating that if we were independent when the banks were making money then be in control of them ourselves might have led us to a different conclusion, therefore he pleaded that when politician utter these claims they should not base them on ifs and buts. What has happened happened with the UK Government in charge end off.
Oil there will always be someone being ripped off but for a country to stand there and take beggars belief, all those politicians who say the act in the best interest of the people have to really look at themselves in the mirror we have lost billions in this commodity.
Questions?
What would have happened if we were independent when oil was discovered?
What would have happened if the politician did not sell out the country all those years ago?
What would happen if Labour (Scotland) started to believe in the Scottish people?
Sorry to go on.
As to the BRIG and RE it is good that you both have strong belief (political), even if a lot of people dislike what they are. Would your voices not be better heard in a Independent country making sure that whatever party is in charge is looking after the welfare of its people.
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#52 brigadierjohn
"The law of defamation and the NUJ Code of Conduct allow ample scope for holding newspapers to account. While the Code has serious flaws, I'm sure it would be the basis for any regulator's adjudications. Why set up another expensive quango?"
As an old liberal, I'm not sure I like your apparent idea of making the subsidised press an NUJ closed shop, but perhaps you simply meant making the NUJ Code of conduct legally enforceable for all journalists?
Either way, that would certainly be a good start, since many readers of this website or the North British MSM will not recognise the first two points of it, let alone the rest.
Who here would have thunk that a journalist should:
1. At all times upholds and defends the principle of media freedom, the right of
freedom of expression and the right of the public to be informed
2. Strives to ensure that information disseminated is honestly conveyed, accurate
and fair
There can't be many NUJ members left in the Record, Herald & Scotsman!
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Does Camerons olive leaf not play into the hands of Labour
i.e.
Look what you get when the next Holyrood elections take place a party that cosies up to the Tories etc
Just a thought
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57 JRM
Very good point but that is always the way they do things isn't it.
To wee to do this, to stupid to run that etc
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I do hope that someone reminded Mr Cameron that the one , the only Tory MP in Scotland is - tara!- Mr Mundell!
That may depress him!It sure would depress me if I were in " call me Dave" shoes.
Nice to hear he got a standing ovation for being negative!
How could he ridicule the SNP looking for twenty seats when he is the last surviving member of Conservativ MPs in Scotland?
Does he not have enough fingers and toes to count up to one?
I take it no one was cruel enough to suggest to " call me Dave " that it was just possible he would have fewer Scottish Conservatives next time?
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Just time to answer a couple more:
Since RJM is not talking to me, could someone ask her what she means by "Black face in the US." (#64) Is it something I've said (don't think so) or a reference to an American sheep ranching society, or what?
#67 Brownedov: It's nothing to do with a closed shop. The code is recognised by the Press Council to cover all journalists.
It's no use quoting clauses and whingeing. If you think the code is breached complain to the Press Council. I've been on the end of a complaint and I can assure you it is rigorously pursued, very time consuming and stressful, and management does not like it one bit. If the complaint is upheld the newspaper is required to publish the adjudication. Not nice at all.
My advice? Stop complaining to me, pursue it through the proper channels and get your reward. Unless of course, you know damn well that disagreeing with you is not, per se, a breach of the code.
Bye meantime.
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http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/news/a202831/salmond-closes-on-sky-election-debate.html
looks like sky are up for a deal
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72. tamO
"looks like sky are up for a deal "
On a lot of the topics that will be discussed, Salmond's most devastating comment would be a simple "No comment on this topic. This does not apply to Scotland and is a matter for England only. The English should decide policy in this area."
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#57 JRMac
The reality is that Scotounionists are in denial about the financial contribution of North sea oil. I have yet to see from them a justification of how this resource was used. If they were to argue that it saved the UK from melt down, that would at least be honest but to do so would make clear how well off Scotland would be if it had full control.
So the only argument as it has been for 30 years is to run Scotland down as incapable of managing its own affairs.
It is sad that people can dismiss their own country for what they conceive is a greater good.
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73. oldnat
"On a lot of the topics that will be discussed, Salmond's most devastating comment would be a simple "No comment on this topic. This does not apply to Scotland and is a matter for England only. The English should decide policy in this area.""
Indeed! And I expect to hear him say that very thing--in his own inimitable way--with one cavaet. He will have to adds that the Scots decide on the same topic for themselves as it has nothing to do with Westminster or any of the three "debaters".
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For any of you Scots who are unacquainted with American history and puzzled by my reference, let me point you toward Blackface and the uses of humor in the denigration of population groups.
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#41 romeplebian,
Why am I not surprised that your claim is completely misleading....
...the actual amount of revenue collected by the UK government over the entire life of UKCS oil & gas production is not unadjacent to £160 billion.
The small discrepancy of £840 billion or so must be down to those nasty private companies who have the affrontery to expect payment for the poducts they sell.....
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74. clachangowk
"So the only argument as it has been for 30 years is to run Scotland down as incapable of managing its own affairs.
It is sad that people can dismiss their own country for what they conceive is a greater good."
I absolutely agree. It has been something I have remarked upon frequently. The unionists, rather than try to argue FOR the union, invariably denigrate Scots and Scotland. One begins to suspect after a while that they actually have no argument for the union (except that leaving it leaves them devoid of a powerbase, of course. Often, the real issue).
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By the way, for anyone who is so foolish as to try to redress political bias through the "Press Council" I have to point out that this organization no longer exists.
The organization which now handles this is the Press Complaints Commission, a regulatory body for British printed newspapers and magazines, consisting of representatives of the major publishers and rather noticeably no one from outwith that industry to represent the public.
There is nothing in their code of practice requiring unbiased reporting which is an interesting "oversight".
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41. romeplebian
"http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article4884.html"
Thanks for the link.
Let me quote a very salient part of that article:
Despite a peak in UK oil production at 3 million barrels a day in 1999, the oil price rises since have ensured a near steady gain in oil sea revenues that have more than offset the reduction in output. The expectation is that the high oil price will now make smaller and more expensive oil fields profitable with the average cost per barrel of North Sea Oil remains at under $20 per barrel and therefore this is expected to lead to an increase in oil production over the next few years, thus contributing to UK's oil profits bonanza continuing for many more years as cost rises towards $25 per barrel are substantially below a crude oil price north of $100.
But wait! Haven't the Scots been told that the oil has run out! They would starve in the dark under the "horrors" of independence!
Ah, but only under independence. Under the UK it is a bonanza that will continue for MANY MORE YEARS. I strongly suggest taking a look at the graph accompanying that article showing the the UK GOVERNMENT income from North Sea Oil which is sky rocketing.
But of course, if it belonged to Scotland you lot would starve in the dark. We all know that. Mmmm hmmm....
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Thank God! You're arguing again.
Much as I love cyberNattery, the two courses of the iniquities of the Labour Party and the wickedness of the media really needed the spice of dissent to make them palatable. And what have you done with Derek? Is he tied up in the basement of Bute House?
JRMcC, I don't think the talk of armies is anything but a play on the Brigadier's name. The cyber battles get heated, but I am sure most people here could have a pint together without glassing each other.
Anyway, I tell people all the time that come the revolution, they'll be put up against a wall and shot. In fact, I do that so often that the Scottish Soviet Republic will require several new walls to be built. ;)
#60 tamO
It's true to say the BBC is biased, but not party political in that way. Got a wee crazy theory about this.
The status quo is the Union, right? People in large institutions like the BBC, civil service etc are used to the status quo and tend to regard anyone who deviates from the status quo as a wild eyed fanatic. It's not that they get their marching orders from Labour Party press releases, or Tory ones for that matter (this may be more prevalent in print media). It's just that they're naturally more inclined to defend the way things are because that's the way things have always been. One sees this with capitalism too, but that would take a massive post ;)
There's also the aspect with BBC Scotland that the SNP are the government and therefore they come under fire because they're most high profile and therefore most newsworthy. "Opposition party messes up" isn't half as exciting as "First Minister messes up". They want to see blood and the bigger the beast, the more it bleeds (not that I'm making personal remarks here.)
In other words, I don't think withdrawing a licence fee would change a culture. Creating forms of new media can push old media in one direction or another (withdrawing or adapting) but it would be like me saying I could get airtime for my small section of the far left by getting people to withdraw the licence fee. There are bigger interests than that involved.
(And for the record, I think Mr Taylor's blog is pretty good and feel somewhat disturbed by all the comments that go "Ahahahaha! Brian shows his evil unionist colours again!" It gets to be a bit like that part in Gulliver's Travels where writing about piles ends up being decoded as a plot against the king. Not accusing you Tam, just saying.)
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#67 Brownedov
Yikes!
Don't like the thought of the [bourgeois] courts judging whether a journo had been sufficiently "free" and "honest"!
Surely if you reckon nulab/unionists are corrupting everything as badly as that you wouldn't want that either. There would be no protection for any paper or magazine which espoused one particular viewpoint...from whatever the Nats' paper is or was called, to Socialist Worker via any trade magazine which had strong views on one or another topic. Freedom's in the eye of the beholder, and you and the State may not behold it the same way.
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"David Cameron didn’t so much ask Scots to switch to the Tories in his speech to the party faithful in Perth yesterday. He pleaded with them.
He wasn’t quite on bended knee but there was an air of desperation, almost, in the air as the often beleaguered Scottish Conservative party viewed what was almost certainly the Conservative leader’s last major speech north of the border before Gordon Brown calls the general election."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/7223981/David-Cameron-appeals-to-Scottish-Tories-with-a-top-drawer-speech.html
Also interesting that Cameron is using the "no cuts in the NHS" line in Scotland. Either deliberate obfuscation, or his advisers didn't know that the Scottish Parliament decides on the Scottish NHS - nowt to do with Westminster.
What Cochrane doesn't mention is Cameron using the old line of the SNP's "obsession" with Independence - yet Cameron constantly talked about "our precious Union".
I might talk about my "precious" marriage. You would then be quite entitled to draw the conclusion that I am obsessed with Mrs Nat.
(If she's reading this - "Of course I am, dear"!)
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fourstrikes
Great to see you back! Agreed that this blog had become a bit boring with no one to fight with. Which is why, like my predecessors, I've become a mercenary fighting on foreign soil! :-)
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#83 oldnat
You could just have a huge ideological commitment to the concept of marriage, with Mrs Nat being incidental to this...or am I making your point for you here?
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Q: What would have happened if Scotland had been independent when oil was discovered?
Every chance we would have been invaded by an imperialist power from the south. A little bit like what happened in Iraq perhaps? Wonder if Ireland would have been given its freedom if there had been oil there?
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83. oldnat
"JRMcC, I don't think the talk of armies is anything but a play on the Brigadier's name. The cyber battles get heated, but I am sure most people here could have a pint together without glassing each other. "
Some no doubt but you might want to read Rab Macneil's comments on Iain Gray's reaction to criticism. Do I think they really are going to shoot each other? Of course not. Do I think that BJ's comments were made in good humor and jest?
Not for a second.
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81. fourstrikes
"The status quo is the Union, right? People in large institutions like the BBC, civil service etc are used to the status quo and tend to regard anyone who deviates from the status quo as a wild eyed fanatic. It's not that they get their marching orders from Labour Party press releases, or Tory ones for that matter (this may be more prevalent in print media). It's just that they're naturally more inclined to defend the way things are because that's the way things have always been. One sees this with capitalism too, but that would take a massive post "
I agree with you in large part here. However, I think it's a bit more complex than that because I also believe that they consider (being the British Broadcasting Company) that part of their remit is to defend the union.
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#84 oldnat
Thanks for the welcome, it's good to be back. But no aye-write and no Derek and no....! I was relieved to see you still post or I would have thought I fell down some rabbit hole or other and ended up in Blether with Brian, Alternate Universe Edition.
Where are you fighting now? Mr Robinson's blog or even further afield?
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#71 brigadierjohn
"The code is recognised by the Press Council to cover all journalists."
Thanks for the info, brig., but do please realise that when I worked for a newspaper in the '80s it was as the head of a service department rather than as a journalist, so my knowledge of the technical side of journalism is more related to typesetting and the like than page content.
The Press Council has been replaced with the Press Complaints Commission which prides itself on being one of the "bodies that make up the press self-regulatory system", so I see where you're coming from. It does indeed process and enforce complaints against articles which break their ownEditors' Code of Practice, which is quite a different beast from the NUJ Code of conduct you referred me to previously.
Unlike the NUJ code, the PPC Editors' Code enshrines the freedom "to be partisan", merely requiring it to "distinguish clearly between comment, conjecture and fact" and grant a "fair opportunity for reply to inaccuracies must be given when reasonably called for."
This may be fair enough for a privately funded organ - although many here will question whether the Scottish dead tree press fulfil even those obligations, especially re the "distinguish clearly" bit, and I still ask you to justify why the taxpayer should fund "partisan" media, whether pro or anti anything you care to name.
I can find no reference on the PCC website to anyone's "Code of conduct", nor for that matter any reference to the NUJ, and nothing at all which comes even close to the NUJ's "professional principles" of striving "to ensure that information disseminated is honestly conveyed, accurate and fair".
Perhaps it's just that times have changed since you left the profession, but if so it's clearly a change for the worse.
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65. brigadierjohn
"But may try shooting the sitting ducks later. :-)"
Maybe you'll hit one soon ;)
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#80 JRMacClure & #41 romeplebian,
The offical figures can be found here
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
or simply by googling "uk oil & gas revenue"
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#87 JRMcC,
Point taken, but I would differentiate between politicos and punters. Politicians (and I have seen this up close and personal) do knife each other in the back and aggressive talk may be a reflection of true feelings. Like Mr Taylor's "Enemies Clash" post. To do penance for my sins I do now and again watch FMQs and I don't know if you've noticed this, but sometimes when they forget to switch the sound off the more interesting remarks are made when the MSPs wander out of the chamber. No love lost. ;)
On the interwebz though a snarling facade can be hiding a tiny cute kitten and a wee friend of all the world can be a very nasty piece of work. We don't have body language or eye contact to read what the other one's up to, but we also don't have the stakes politicos play for.
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#88 JRMcC,
Having known some BBC types, I think that might subconsciously play a role, but I don't think it's overt. They tend to be mild mannered liberals (in America liberal means left wing, no? I mean a centre leftist type) and they would regard a break up of the union as an "extremist" thing. They don't go in for extremism.
And maybe they think a bit about their history as the BBC as well..the World Service etc. This is teetering on the edge of psychoanalysis though and I'm not very good at that ;)
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I watched the last wee bit of the Con servatve rally in Perth, with David Im the only tory in the village Mundell and Im chewing a Lemon Anabelle Goldie who had to keep moving because super magic marvellous fabulous David call me the Guvnor kept standing in front of her on stage. All it needed was for an elephant to come on and crap on the stage and it would have been like an episode of Blue Peter.
So the message from Cam I change my policies on a daily basis is, if labour lose I mean if the tories win the election and Alex you cannae win because your not in it, and even though we might not have more than 1 mp in Scotland we will fight tooth and nail for the union , not the unions, the union, and we will not condescend you jocks too much we will invite you to all the bestest parties and won't giggle too much or say how arfalll your haggis is.
But we have one thing to be thankful for, If Dave boy wins the election, it will speed up the independence process
so Vote for Dave just not up here
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Oh yeah, and I have to point out that I love Rab McNeil's "sketches" in Holyrood mag and online :)
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#72 tamO
Many thanks for the link, which demonstrates yet again how even the parties invited misunderstand (or perhaps just pretend to) the polity of the UK when it says: "other parties however do not want Salmond involved in the debates as he is not a candidate for Prime Minister"
Bring on the prime ministerial elections, I say, and then the nature of the asymmetric union will be unable to be concealed!
#73 oldnat
Quite so. Drat, we're in agreement again!
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86. At 7:17pm on 12 Feb 2010, hamish42 wrote:
Q: What would have happened if Scotland had been independent when oil was discovered?
Every chance we would have been invaded by an imperialist power from the south. A little bit like what happened in Iraq perhaps?
Probably under the pretext of uncovering our stockpile of WMD's.
Oh !!! wait a second we have WMD's on the Clyde.
Stand-by by for regime change.
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85. fourstrikes
"a huge ideological commitment" is probably equivalent to obsession, which was my point. After 41 years, though, Mrs Nat would probably not think it appropriate that I was obsessed by her (she would imagine that I was obsessed with her [wholly imaginary] bad points).
Think I got out of that one! :-)
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#79 JRMacClure
Quite so, as I hope my #90 clarifies.
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86. hamish42
the would have discovered the Macdonald's from Ballachulish had been hiding weapons of mass destruction and kidnapped Jimmy Saville and made him remake Jim'll fix it films under duress to torture him ,so would have enabled Obama and Cameron to come steaming in to steal the oil, I mean save Jimmy and massacre the Macdonald's a wait that has been done before , erm converted the MacDonald's to a fast food outlet
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93. fourstrikes
I rather enjoy watching the FMQ but I admit largely because it is such a pleasure to see what Mr. Salmond regularly does to Iain Gray (whom I have come to loathe). Surely, you must admit it is enjoyable to watch a debater with the skill of Wee Eck. (Yes, he occasionally smirks, but I would, too)
I have been watching UK political site for some time as well as spending some time in Scotland where I do research. I'm afraid that I can't agree that "punters" who spout such bile and hatred really don't mean it. While admittedly it happens on all sides of the political divide (all of them including in my own country), the viciousness "cyberbrit" attacks has been appalling to me.
A bit of tit-for-tat livens things up. The attacks on nationalists goes far beyond that. Keep in mind, please, that although my sympathies have come to be with the nationalists, I have no dog in this fight. I originally didn't support either side and expected the unionists to make a good argument for themselves. After all, Scotland has been in the union for 300 years. There must be something in it.
Instead the constant bile combined expressed has convinced me that the nationalists are right at LEAST in demanding the right to a referendum. However, that goes along with my own belief that all people have the basic right (or should have) to political self-determination. So maybe that's an expression of an underlying belief.
Enough meandering. I'm not really sure what all that is in support of, just expressing my experience of the union/nationalist divide.
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89. fourstrikes
Political Betting. If you ignore the "Disgusted of Littlehampton" brigade, there a good number of them who are intelligent, thoughtful people. The Left is not represented. There are a few Labour Party hacks, but most there think that the Labour Party is full of socialists!
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#90 Brownedov: Engaging with you is like trying to strangle an amoeba while standing on quicksand. Your subtle changes of ground and shape hardly make you unusual here, however. Things have changed - I should have remembered it's the PCC now, and codes or whatever may also have moved on. But my point still holds: if you are unhappy, complain, complain, complain. It's your right.
My final thought on subsidy: You and I pay for political theatre groups, we give grants to modern artists who insult us with their rubbish, then sell it for thousands to Saatchi. We also subsidise community groups, supporting their freedom to be irrelevant. The press at least gives you something to blog about.
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#82 fourstrikes
Don't shoot the messenger here! As I read it, it was designed to protect the journo from his evil bosses' insistence on towing a corrupt line.
"Freedom's in the eye of the beholder, and you and the State may not behold it the same way."
Granted, but it is still a heck of a lot better than the very limited safeguards offered by the Press Complaints Commission.
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72. At 5:27pm on 12 Feb 2010, tamO wrote:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/news/a202831/salmond-closes-on-sky-election-debate.html
looks like sky are up for a deal
-------------------------------
I'd be cautious about their intentions. They are looking at the prospect of an independent Scotland, and would love to muscle in on the BBC.
Do we really want a Scottish version of Fox News?
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for the above to make sense Jimmy Saville has a House in Glencoe ooooooooo jingle jangle jewelry
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96. fourstrikes
"Oh yeah, and I have to point out that I love Rab McNeil's "sketches" in Holyrood mag and online :)"
There we are in total agreement.
100. At 7:46pm on 12 Feb 2010, Brownedov wrote:
It was an excellent analysis, Brownedov, and kinder than I'm feeling today. Perhaps it's the sinus infection but I'm in a "take no prisoners" mood (joining in the militant brigade of cybernats)
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http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1117273
this forum relates to bbc and it's relationship and treatment of scotland
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#91 mrbfaethedee: Nice one - but didn't you see the trail of dead ducks across the blog?
Off again - matrimonial complaint!
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#99 oldnat
"I have a huge ideological commitment to you" may not be the most enticing lines ever spoken, but then "I am obsessed by you" has a more unnerving component!
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106. enneffess
"Do we really want a Scottish version of Fox News?"
One Reporting Scotland's enough thanks ;)
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Now that Geoff Hoon has anounced his intention to retire from Westminster, how many MPs is that now?
We're moving a little bit into uncharted territory, with so many MPs leaving (oldnat, correct me if I'm wrong, you have more experience of elections!).
I've pointed out before that many MPs are good constituency ones (please, don't start the Nicola Sturgeon arguments again!), and that is a factor in them returning their seat even if their party gets thumped.
A whole bunch of new faces might stir things up. And considering a lot of wannabe MPs are councillors, how they have done recently might knock a few of them off their perch.
But I wish they would hurry up and announce the GE date so I can take the Friday off to watch the results coming in during the night.
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#102 JRMcC
You make interesting points.
I suspect my experience here is coloured by my experiences on the Left. I've been denounced by comrades on and offline more times than I've had hot dinners, and done my share of denouncing too ;) It's politics as usual, and I don't necessarily find it worrying when people trade jibes on a website.
You're right though that some people do mean it in quite an alarming way...I don't believe the Brigadier is one of them at all, but I would guess you've met people who are members of that strange club where online arguing becomes a fixation and you wouldn't want to meet them in a dark alleyway. Mr T's blog is quite free of those, though.
RE AS vs IG, the second is particularly hapless but it might well be the case that AS would fare less well against Jim Murphy. That would be more fun to watch. FMQs right now are so noisy as to ping one's eardrums and "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".
RE bile and such, I am tempted to think that there are *paid* apparatchiki on both sides who post loyally in defence of the faith no matter what, and their posts are boring to read, aggressive and logically inconsistent. And I say that as a communist and a defender of the concept of democratic centralism :)
Do you reckon from your observations (an outside observer often sees more of the truth) that a referendum would be a good idea right now? What response do you think we would get?
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110. brigadierjohn
"#91 mrbfaethedee: Nice one - but didn't you see the trail of dead ducks across the blog?"
Touché.
It's the Tory party conference today; dead ducks, scottish tories, who could tell the difference? :)
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91. mrbfaethedee
"Maybe you'll hit one soon ;)
"
My experience men indicates that those shooting blanks are the ones most frequently convinced they're hotshots. ;-)
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#103 oldnat
Hmm....that sounds interesting. Is there a lot of Scottish news on there? Quite a fast moving blog? I will investigate.
I'm enjoying the Caledonian Mercury at the moment, but the comments aren't hugely exciting. What's your view?
I *wish* the Labour Party was full of socialists. Like I wish Obama was the Marxist some of my US acquaintances claim he is.
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enneffess 106
muscle in on the BBC, that is the sickest remark I have heard in year’s ,what bbc would you not have them muscle in on, the one who today has been repeating on the hour video of the labour leader equal to the soviet union , or the one who only thinks that there at best three political parties well more like two because I think the liberals are even getting the cold shoulder now.
Then there is the one who just make up there own stories plus the one who now are into using tabloid headlines in there webpages. The end can’t come soon enough
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116. JRMacClure
LOL You are a wicked, wicked woman!
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Brian ...
"scrapping the Barnett Formula? "
I'd love them to!
They're the ones that don't have the bottle.
In the current climate, during the the process of replacing it nothing less than complete transparency about the state of the UK finances would be acceptable.
Independence.
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117. fourstrikes
"I'm enjoying the Caledonian Mercury at the moment, but the comments aren't hugely exciting."
The Cally Merc is good because it seems to be journalists operating without a distorted editorial line. I haven't bothered with the comments, as I have enough difficulty keeping up with 3 blogs I keep an eye on.
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#105 Brownedov
I was more scared at the prospect of a man with a silly wig on deciding whether Esme Choonara was sufficiently neutral ;) Or, for that matter, the Nat journo on the Herald whose name escapes me, but he was pretty good.
Union rules are different to legally binding rules under the present system so I'd go for the first while dodging away from the second.
Were you suggesting a quango to deal with such things?
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114. fourstrikes
"Do you reckon from your observations (an outside observer often sees more of the truth) that a referendum would be a good idea right now? What response do you think we would get?"
I think the sooner the better. (I'll skip heckling the unionists for calling for a referendum for everyone else in the country EXCEPT Scotland)
I wouldn't say because "what would happen today" is really irrelevant. What matters is what would happen in a campaign and exactly how the referendum was worded.
I strongly suspect that after a campaign that support would be higher than anything you see in polls. A majority? I'm not sure. But if there were a choice of complete fiscal autonomy except for a contribution for military, I feel reasonably certain (strictly personal opinion) that it would pass.
I think this would not please quite a few nationalists. Would be a step to complete dis-union? Very possibly but not necessarily. I think it would serve as a much needed wakeup to Westminster to stop taking Scotland for granted as a "wee county up north" and unimportant.
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114. fourstrikes
"RE AS vs IG, the second is particularly hapless but it might well be the case that AS would fare less well against Jim Murphy. That would be more fun to watch. "
Nothing I've seen of Jim Murphy has convinced me he's any better--he is given too much of a free pass by any possible questioner that I've seen. He may be and I just haven't seen it. However, I would love to see Mr. Salmond have to work for those smirks. You're right that no one he goes up against at the moment is even close to up to the task.
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#104 brigadierjohn
"Engaging with you is like trying to strangle an amoeba while standing on quicksand."
LOL, but the feeling's mutual. At least we're now agreed that the current PCC code is very different from the current NUJ code.
"You and I pay for political theatre groups, we give grants to modern artists who insult us with their rubbish, then sell it for thousands to Saatchi. We also subsidise community groups, supporting their freedom to be irrelevant."
Point taken, but although I like early music (and of course support subsidising that!), I'm a bit of a philistine, and generally go along with Jim Hacker's views in The Middle-Class Rip-Off - before Sir H's seduction, of course - and feel very much that way at the idea of subsidising the "free to be partisan" press.
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117. fourstrikes
"Like I wish Obama was the Marxist some of my US acquaintances claim he is.
"
We had hopes--soon dashed.
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117. fourstrikes
"Is there a lot of Scottish news on there?"
We annoy the English by taking over the night shift! The daytime stuff is dominated by Surbiton!
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116. JRMacClure
"My experience men indicates that those shooting blanks are the ones most frequently convinced they're hotshots. ;-)"
Lol!
Maybe we should encourage more bravado amongst our young men, in order to decrease our 'appalling' teenage pregnancy rates. :)
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#123 JRMcC,
Yeah, the wording would be very important (and will no doubt be tussled over for a while to come). I'd suggest support for devmax but not for independence right now...definitely not right now with the "scandals" hanging over the Nats.
Were you around for Ms Alexander's "bring it on" moment when she clamoured for a referendum? That was a far smarter tactic than she was given credit for (she was not leadership material but she's got a reasonable share of brains). If so, what did you make of it?
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I didn't see all of Cameron's speech today, but apparently
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2010/02/why-was-cam-so-coy-about-eton-today.html
He said: "You have a state education system, after thirteen years of Labour government, that allows more boys from one English public school to get three A’s at A-Level than all the poorest boys in England’s state schools put together".
Didn't any of those nice Scots Tories in the audience notice that he was taling about an education system which is nothing to do with us? Are they blind and deaf, as well as stupid?
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#124 JRMcC
I think Murphy's a clever politician and generally a sharp person though I do not share his politics. IG is out of a different mould. Not everyone can do the Parly cut and thrust, in fact I'd say 99 percent of people can't...but what I have seen of Murphy, he'd have a better chance.
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129. fourstrikes
"Were you around for Ms Alexander's "bring it on" moment when she clamoured for a referendum? That was a far smarter tactic than she was given credit for (she was not leadership material but she's got a reasonable share of brains). If so, what did you make of it?"
I thought scuppering her "bring it on" challenge was arrant stupidity.
I think that (again personal opinion) that the desire for independence consistently underpolls for similar reasons to the talk about "shy tories". Scots have been told for certuries that they're lucky to be taken care of by the union and that independence is totally impractical, that it will never happen.
If a referendum were actually scheduled, that in itself would answer one of those. Yes, it could happen and debate on various issues (perhaps transparency on financial issues) would be forced. You may well be right that it would still lose, but I believe that Scotland and Scottish (perhaps UK-wide) politics would never be the same again and in a very positive way.
Why it was scuppered? For the reasons I just listed that scare many unionists spitless. There is at least a chance it would win and even if it didn't, things would never be the same. So maybe it wasn't arrant stupidity after all. =)
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oldnat 130
You don’t get it, it was being televised on the bbc news channel so he could be anywhere
It was not for your benefit it was for the state broadcaster.
They are along with the bbc out to make you irrelevant. So lie down and die, or do something about it
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#130 oldnat
It's a shame we can't swear on these boards. I have nearly no words for what he said that aren't profane.
As you say the Scottish system is completely different. But even if it wasn't, could there be *perhaps more reasons* why rich people do better at school than poor people? Like, um, poverty compared to riches?
These are the Eton boys preparing to take power and we're supposed to believe they have some tender concern for the working class and want them all to achieve 3 As at A Level? Probably his Tory audience all went home congratulating themselves that (as I've heard from Tories before) "Blood does tell, y'know."
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131. fourstrikes
"I think Murphy's a clever politician and generally a sharp person"
Here I agree with you because he has made some very astute (if sometimes less than admirable) moves. What I haven't seen is him in any "cut and thrust" situations where he was in the least tried--and you can bet against Salmond he would be. Cleverness isn't quite enough, but it would be interesting to find out if he could handle himself better than the current lot. :)
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#127 oldnat
You tempt me to go to Political Betting and join the Scottish night shift ;)
Will check it out tonight and see what they've got!
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131. fourstrikes
Since I hear he is very likely to lose his Westminster seat--perhaps we'll get a chance to find out. I'm sure he'd consider Holyrood a terrible come-down unionist that he is but one must make do. =)
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133. tamO
"You don’t get it"
Why do you think I posted this?
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#122 fourstrikes
Point taken, but the discussion with the Brig started on a previous thread. The story so far..
There was debate in the SP re whether to subsidise the dead tree press. My view is that such subsidy should at least be with the quid pro quo of regulation somewhat less awful that the BBC Charter. The Brig demurs, as you can see on this thread. My view now is that making the NUJ code legally enforceable would be the minimum regulation needed. The Brig regards the PCC code as adequate safeguard. We agree to disagree.
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#135
He's been raised in a harsher school than our Parly...he might acquit himself well!
To be honest, I'd just enjoy watching those two pitted against each other. I think it's a closer match than IG vs AS, and closer matches are more fun to watch.
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fourstrikes 131
Murphy's a clever politician
Yes that’s the same Murphy who on army day in Glasgow was running around trying to get photo opportunities of him on tanks in George square well demonstrators and loyalists counter demonstrators where attacking each other, where he was overheard on the news when one of the counter demonstrators was interrupting his interview don’t I am on your side.
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fourstrikes, as a revolutionary socialist internationalist unionist who wants independence but is deeply uneasy about Scottish nationalism I reckon Jim Murphy would be too bewildered to know if being rated by you was a good thing or not!
I like a bit of complexity.
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#130 oldnat
"Are they blind and deaf, as well as stupid?"
Pity Dean's not posting to field that, but the answer certainly seems to be true. Untrusting as ever, I checked on the Tory website and, at the time of writing, those very words appear in the MODERN CONSERVATIVES (sic) section of his Speech: The real choice in British politics, along with a totally irrelevant section entitled NHS where he admits the Scottish NHS is nothing to do with him.
I always used to think of Ian Paisley as the Arthur Daley of UK politics, through his use of second-hand untruths sold with conviction, but I'm beginning to think Cameron covets that accolade.
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Cuts severe lacerations might be a bit nearer the truth when he gets to see the ammount red ink ink the books.
Just How Ugly Is The Sovereign Default Truth? How Self Delusions Prevent Recognition Of Reality Shylock's on his way.
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From a sub-editor at the Scottish Sun "There’s a large piece in tomorrow’s Scottish Sun that is pro-SNP.”
Sounds intriguing.
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Tories in a hung Westminster Parliament would rely on voters in their marginals in the Southeast of England. That region accounts for five times Scotland's electorate.
Those SE voters won't want bigger cuts in their services - nor higher taxes - to fund Scottish public services. Especially as they know that those public services form a much greater proportion of the Scottish economy than the economy of the affluent Southeast.
So if Cameron were to lessen the service cuts in Scotland for solidarity's sake, he'd risk paying with a drop in his crucial southern vote. In a hung parliament, he simply couldn't afford to do that and his MPs wouldn't let him.
Protecting Scotland from cuts can only be achieved by a Westminster majority Party that needs its Scottish votes to continue in Government. Only Labour fits that description.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
well there website don't look good to me
the sun that is
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#132 JRMcC
I agree with that. The fact the referendum occurred would have been a huge thing and the turnout and vote may well have given various people pause (from the pro Union side as well as the anti Union side). I think not taking the challenge was a misstep because it wouldn't have happened the next day...it would have been a challenge to both sides to build their forces towards the oncoming referendum and I think the outcome would have been fascinating for Scotland as a whole.
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Yes i support the SNP but surely those who do not should be concerned that the state broadcaster is now running constant attacks on the democratically elected government of Scotland with clever editing of speeches and the like, even yesterday following questions to Alex Salmond the BBC played Ian Grey bit where he said something along the lines of Ms Sturgeon defending a fraudster but removing the distasteful bit before where Grey claimed "I was defending the victims of knife crime".
There is an orchestrated campaign against the Scottish government by the London based media and political parties, people are attacking my country and its people but still Scots unionists defend and indeed join in the smears.I have absolute faith in the people of Scotland and feel we have the drive the talent and the resources to be a significant member of the international community, its just a shame the unionists do not.
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#139 Brownedov
Interesting discussion. I'd fall on the Brig's side in that subsidising small press is a good thing.
It holds communities together. I think, looking at his argument, the fact it builds ties between people in a way that the interwebz does not is a fair and valid point. My parents live in rural Scotland and I enjoy very much picking up the local paper there...it has a vibrancy and a localness (is that a word?) that words on a website just would not. When I worked near where my parents live, when the local paper came out there would be a rush to buy it and a debate on its contents.
I can envisage that in the future this won't be necessary cause we'll all be plugged into the Net ;) But right now, isn't it worth saving?
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#141 tamO
Photo opps aren't where power lies.
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#81
I do see much in your theory that I can agree with; however.....remember the previous Labour Administration at Holyrood? I do not remember the same kind of scrutiny from the media, especially from the BBC. I'll leave it at that.
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#142 GrassyKnollington
I wouldn't describe myself as a unionist, but aside from that, spot on!
Know some people who know Jim Murphy and he wouldn't associate himself with me in a hundred years ;) He seems like an interesting character in that I'd like to know more about how he sees his own politics. He's quite cagey with the media..what's his core beliefs?
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Cameron always talks a lot and says very little. His first topic was significant and showed his real fear in Scotland was not Labour but was the SNP. If he thinks the SNP are so irrelevant, in the UK context, he would just not mention them. Somehow he always gives me the impression of being a, none too honest, used car salesman. He very well may win the election and be up here within the week but what if Wee Eck is too busy to see him?
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146. leftie
"Protecting Scotland from cuts can only be achieved by a Westminster majority Party that needs its Scottish votes to continue in Government."
An interesting political analysis - especially since it is based on a totally inadequate knowledge base.
The English marginals are not in the South East. Seats there are solid Tory.
Westminster has no control over the distribution of the Scottish Consolidated Fund. All they can do is to vary its size.
You are suggesting that Labour in power would insulate Scotland from any reduction in public funding, because the votes of Scottish MPs are needed. Why do you think the much larger number of Labour MPs in England would go along with a strategy that cut their funding more deeply to keep Scotland happy?
Your argument is not only flawed, but for a Unionist it is also deeply immoral. You want there to be a Britain, but you want the Southern British to suffer more than those in North Britain. Just where is the "solidarity" in that vision?
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I wish to make one subtle point. In the period from 1910 onwards to 1914, the Irish Nationalists did wield a lot of power despite never being able to form a government on its own.
This I believe could happen in 2010, especially if the Conservatives fall short of a majority. By promising to vote with the Conservatives on key issues, the SNP could secure greater autonomy for Scotland or get rid of certain things in Scotland that are currently reserved. It would be just like the extent to which the Irish Nationalists, despite being an 'Irrelevance' in terms of not being able to form an administration on its own, wielded true power.
I think David Cameron and Jim Murphy are all too aware of this. One hundred years later, I suspect history may be about to repeat itself in terms of a Nationalist party holding the balance of power.
I do not see why the Conservatives would refuse to work with the SNP - they are far more moderate than the Liberal Democrats (in my view). And also, working with Labour would perhaps be a step too far.
So an irrelevance? I think not.
As for the two-horse race - how can you have a two horse race between two horses when one (the Conservatives) has broken it's leg? There are only two real horses in the race for Scotland's seats - the SNP and Labour. And I have a suspicion the SNP will win.
If I hear that 'two horse race' rubbish one last time, I will be sure to hit every single Labour-held seat and erode it's support.
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peteraberdeenshire 150
It’s not just about the snp the bbc have done such damage to there standing that in my view they are a dangerous ant-democratic force in our society. It’s that bad now that they are not capable of carrying out what would be a duty of holding a Government to account because they have so clearly associated them self with the British labour party as to render themselves partisan they are not outside the election they are propagandist in it
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71. brigadierjohn
I see you have been more than adequately answered by JR anyway but just let me add that your protestations of innocence/ignorance on this are fooling no-one. You knew _exactly_ what she was about.
And your attempts to pass it off as light-hearted banter don't fool me or I suspect many others either.
As I said, I hope you hang around long enough to see the butcher's apron pulled down, folded up and handed to the unlucky Brit representative.
Never forget, your humiliation _does_ matter to us.
#117 fourstrikes - I remember when there were more than a few socialists in the Labour Party, I was one of them. Perhaps thats why we detest what the labour Party is now. It has a lot to do with why they detest us cos they know we know the depths they have sunk to.
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146. leftie
I appreciate that like everyone else you've tried to blot it out of your memory, but we have been having a 'wee try' of Labour in Westminster in recent years.
Not only have they failed to to govern well, they have abandoned their principles and core voters (some of the latter haven't quite clicked yet).
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While oil revenues are important the are by no means the whole story. What of the Scottish per capita share of other, "UK", resources? Here are a few facts often overlooked. The Oilfields are policed by Grampian Police and supported by an Infrastructure, at NE Scottish Ratepayers and Council Tax payers expense. There is no extra financial support from Westminster. All other North Sea taxes paid by the International Oil Companies based in London are credited to the London account. So also are the taxes paid by UK wide companies with London Head Offices. Then we have excise duty and a, long, long list of other incomes to both the Customs & Excise and the Treasuary that Scotland contributes her per capita share to. Do not make the mistake that Scotland would have to depend only upon oil revenues.
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154. fourstrikes
"He seems like an interesting character in that I'd like to know more about how he sees his own politics. He's quite cagey with the media..what's his core beliefs?"
A man with a career at the top level of politics with an open-pass to consequence free media platforms, and it's difficult to figure out his core beliefs and his perspective on his political views.
Says enough about him for me.
I don't rate him either, better than Gray means nothing for me, I'm afraid.
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Can anyone explain why the simple solution of England having a parliament, and a block grant, is never considered as a way to put all UK countries on a level playing field?
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Did anyone find a link to the 2003 Labour Party manifesto? I have seen two supposed extracts concerning the Glasgow and Edinburgh airport rail links but they don't agree with each other. The Osama Saeed article is a bit short on detail. I have tried to google a link but the ones that come up seem to have been wiped? Can anyone help please?
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The Scottish Sun article
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/papercolumnists/donaldmacleod/2852243/Doomed-Alex-Salmond-still-has-Ecks-Factor.html
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163. Auld Bob
Westminster doesn't do "simple or level" it would spoil their pantomine.
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#151 fourstrikes
"I'd fall on the Brig's side in that subsidising small press is a good thing."
I have no argument with the principle of that, whilst doubting its cost-effectiveness with circulations in sharp decline, but the disagreement was over the extent, if any, that the press should accept regulation in exchange for taxpayer funds, with the brig strongly arguing for none. He bridled when I suggested that the logic of his position would have been to subsidise Der Stürmer had that journal found itself short of funds but could not bring himself to deny it.
By all means join the discussion, but do glance through oldnat's #88 et seq on the Enemies clash thread.
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164. hamish42
Agreed difficult to find, but I found one. pdf so I've posted the link on quirky under General Discussions.
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#164 hamish42
"Did anyone find a link to the 2003 Labour Party manifesto?"
Haven't spotted the real McCoy yet, but this website's Labour manifesto at-a-glance of 7 April 2003 16:12 GMT has the 14th bullet point as:
"Deliver rail links to Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports by 2010 and provide better links for business visitors and tourists coming to Scotland"
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164. hamish42
([Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator])
*pdf*
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#165 oldnat
Thanks for the Scottish Sun link. Not exactly unalloyed joy for the FM, but certainly a lot better than yesterday's attack in the same organ on his deputy and he'll probably forgive that for the closing:
"Well after 13 years of Labour sleaze, spin and lies which came after 18 years of Tory misery, division and inequality we should make sure that nightmare becomes a very real horror show for them and stick with the party that sticks up for Scotland."
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Show of hands, please!
Who would have written this letter before the case was brought to court?
Sad Sack Jack!
How can he call for the sacking of Nicola Sturgeon when he says he'd do the same for any of his constituents? Mind you, according to this article, the concerned parent of one of the accused is a wee bit special.
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oldnat:
Some figures might need double checking sir.
Check your inbox ;o)
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What percentage of underclass now vote at election?. Do those "have nots" not give a jot about voting intentions?.
It seems to me that the main parties are trying to do all they can to favour the middleclass and upperclass votes!.
Can an other party draw the underclass out to vote?.
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164. hamish42
Sorry, only 2007.
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146. leftie:
Scotland does not receive the largest net grant, parts of England do. I don't have the figures to hand but it's been shown time and again, even when oil revenues are taken out of the equation.
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Lib Dems shoot themselves in the foot yet again:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8513662.stm
Does Clegg and other party leaders ever take time to consider what their party colleagues do as an aside to politics?
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If we have a hung parliament, has anyone remembered about the Welsh? They might have as much clout as the SNP, and may not necessarily agree with all decisions.
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163. Auld Bob:
We might as well have a federal state then.
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143. Brownedov:
I think the Tories are starting to realise that Cameron is not the best choice. He will probably win the election but a big part of that will be the desire for a change of government. My preferred choices are William Hague or Boris. Both are smarter than Cameron and porbably more appealing. Boris is portrayed as a bit of a buffoon but I prefer someone who is more of a straight talker than a yes man. And some of Cameron's shadow cabinet posts are a joke. Nothing major in the news but some of the comments they have come out with have been disturbing in that they do not seem to know the basic facts of the portfolio they represent.
--------------------------------
"118. At 8:23pm on 12 Feb 2010, tamO wrote:
enneffess 106
muscle in on the BBC, that is the sickest remark"
Sky runs as a meritocracy and advertises it's jobs as such. Also take a look at who owns the company, a man who very nearly got control of ITV. I know people who work for the company and have worked on recruitment campaigns for them directly in years past.
An independent Scotland would have to take a serious look at running a state-owned television station. Most people would probably think that the BBC would take over that role, but with their track record with the SNP that is not a done deal. Sky and News Int are siding with the SNP camp because they are looking at long term opportunities. Their only concern about Scotland becoming independent is how they can profit from it. A certain tabloid is being aggressively marketed in Glasgow City Centre and has been for several months, with tangible results. Vendors are based outside tube stations and cash machines where their main opponents have never bothered.
It's actually a good thing since it might wake the BBC up and remind them of their broadcasting responsibilities.
But I still do not understand why you think my comment is sick.
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171. Brownedov
"Thanks for the Scottish Sun link. Not exactly unalloyed joy for the FM, but certainly a lot better than yesterday's attack in the same organ on his deputy and he'll probably forgive that for the closing:"
I thought it was pretty honest. It didn't ignore the supposed scandals of the past weeks, but that wouldn't be honest either. I thought this said it:
Well if I were the First Minisiter I wouldn't be worrying - in the past he has ridden out storms as orchestrated as this.
That says it, doesn't it? Orchestrated. They pulled this stunt a little early. By the GE it will be long past and forgotten and support like this from The Sun (much as I dislike the paper) can only help heal the wounds. And let's face it. It will be in the hands of a heck of a lot more readers than The Herald.
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"169. At 00:01am on 13 Feb 2010, Brownedov wrote:
#164 hamish42
"Did anyone find a link to the 2003 Labour Party manifesto?"
Haven't spotted the real McCoy yet, but this website's Labour manifesto at-a-glance of 7 April 2003 16:12 GMT has the 14th bullet point as:
"Deliver rail links to Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports by 2010 and provide better links for business visitors and tourists coming to Scotland"
Ah, but you know how they will counter this: "but we are not in government in Scotland and therefore were unable to blah blah blah".
Easy to promise when you are in opposition.
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165. oldnat
Pro(ish)-SNP fluff piece calculated for Glasgow consumption.
I suppose that's interesting.
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168. oldnat
That's the one I have.
Can't for the life of me imagine why I thought it was from 2007 !?!?!
Aren't past manifesto's harder to find than they ought to be?
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For those who are intereested but not enough to follow oldnat's pointer (or google 'filetype:pdf Scottish Labour Manifesto 2007', it's the first result) - the rail link quote is
"Complete the Glasgow and Edinburgh airport rail links; re-open the Waverley line from Edinburgh to the Borders, Airdrie – Bathgate line and Stirling – Alloa; and complete the Waverley station upgrade all in the lifetime of the next Parliament."
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180. mrbfaethedee
"Aren't past manifesto's harder to find than they ought to be?"
Fortunately, academics have a habit of storing these documents - knowing full well that parties (all parties!) like to hide the evidence of their former misdeeds!
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173. Online Ed
I've answered.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
When the government lowered V.A.T. did everyone receive a 2.5% V.A.T. reduction in their mortgage and rents? and when the government increased V.A.T. did everyone get an increase in their V.A.T. mortgage and rent rates?.The experts said the the increase back to 17.5% would draw something like an addiontal 10Bn into the government.Did it mean that Scotland was better off by 1Bn?.
Apparently over 100 labour MP's will be resigning from government come the G.E. however to date, I think there are only 32 new prospective candidates!. Do you think that the MP's expenses scandal will need a deflection as the G.E. draws nearer? something like a sustainded attack on benefit cheats?.
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Strike three! I'm out!
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185. kered
"V.A.T. reduction in their mortgage"
Can't help I'm afraid. My mortgage was finally paid off a wee while back - and I couldn't find any organisation stupid enough to give me money for mortgage payments I wasn't making.
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#187 oldnat
Sorry for the ignorance oldnat. I was speaking to someone the other day that had a threatning letter from their council because they hadn't been paying the addtional increase in the V.A.T. rate since it went back to 17.5%. Just thought I'd float the question here and see what type of responses it got! do people in general forget where any extra cash comes from but remember when that cash goes missing?.
If we look at the current interest rates, inflation rates and general retail price index rates, then any increase in tax as far as council tax goes would be an automatic reduction to employees earnings.So at this giving time council tax freeze may well be a sensible move?.
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Thanks to all who replied to my request about the 2003 LP manifesto.
One of the extracts I mentioned earlier said:
“Deliver rail links to Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports by 2010 and provide better links for business visitors and tourists coming to Scotland”
This appears to give Labour a ‘get out of jail’ card as they had lost the 2007 election and couldn't complete the job. There was a suggestion that by 2006 all the planning had been done and the job was ready to go. Would this be why Salmond didn’t use it against Labour?
The other extract I saw said they would complete the project by the end of their parliamentary term which doesn’t seem to let them off the hook, except that this may be from their 2007 manifesto.
I had intended to use the information elsewhere but wanted to be sure of my ground and was interested to know what the 2003 manifesto said.
#168 Oldnat Thanks for your link but I don’t know how to use this ‘quirky’ and ‘general discussions’ link. Would it be a problem to explain it?
#181. mrbfaethedee
This appears to be from the 2007 manifesto which seems to confirm my theory.
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Apologies btw for my earlier post re the Lab manifesto for 2003. That was indeed the 2007 one. The 2003 one will still be stored somewhere on an academic site - but my password to access that has run out!
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The Scottish Tories weren't worth watching
David Mundell has the cheek to mock the SNP's goal of tripling their number of seats in Scotland, when his party wants to increase their share by a factor of ten.
Annabel Goldie says that Tories in Scotland should stop voting tactically to keep parties they don't like out, but then says that Lib Dem and SNP voters should start voting tactically to keep Labour out.
Unfortunate slip of the tongue for Cameron when he said that the NHS in Scotland is dissolved!
Decentralising power - giving people the chance to make change happen through local referendums, giving neighbourhoods the right to run parks and public places, giving local councils unprecedented freedom to do what they think is right for their area, creating powerful directly elected mayors and provosts to bring civic pride and leadership to our biggest cities.
Would he be capable of creating a directly elected provost of Glasgow (or anywhere else in Scotland) if local government is devolved?
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179. mrbfaethedee
"Pro(ish)-SNP fluff piece calculated for Glasgow consumption.
I suppose that's interesting."
Considering the constant complaints about no pro-SNP articles in the dead-tree press, yes, I think it is interesting. It is important to counter the constant drip-drip-drip of negativism.
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#179 mrb...
'Pro(ish)-SNP fluff piece calculated for Glasgow consumption.
I suppose that's interesting.'
Well if The Scottish Sun is out to crush the Daily Record then good luck. Its been a badly written newspaper for a long time. Glasgow centric and Labour supporting no matter what happened to the country it deserves to be stripped of its readership. Come to think of it the P&J has been going downhill as of late too. Newspapers are only good for 2 things ...emergency bog roll and lighting the fire (with clean newpaper obviously) ;O)}
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enneffess 176
It’s sick because your delusional, you think the unionist cabal who are in charge of the bbc in Scotland care about positioning in a future independent Scotland.
What have unionist from Scotland shown over the years, if nothing else is that no sacrifices is too small to maintain the union.
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183. At 01:16am on 13 Feb 2010, oldnat wrote:
173. Online Ed
I've answered.
Thanks, and using your figure you are absolutely correct.
I have left another message though.
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I'be been busy and haven't had time to follow up on much of the news but ...
Did I imagine yesterday that there was international support for minimum pricing of alcohol?
I ask only because I can find this story no-where (I'm sure I saw it on The Herald).
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#196 - Ed - you did see it in the Herald
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#196 Despite that we get this
http://news.scotsman.com/health/Minimum-price---for.6066522.jp
Mind you i liked the part
'Telling MSPs that the world would be looking to Scotland to see how minimum pricing worked, Dr Petra Meier said: "The idea of modelling is you haven't introduced a policy, you're trying to project what is going to happen. It's like the weather forecast, you don't evaluate it afterwards, it's a model." '
If anybody from the other partys read that, they must be thinking how stupid they look to reject minimum pricing if the rest of the world is also considering it.
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Also theres this one
'http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article7001951.ece
Although the picture accompanying the story is ridiculous as i dont think Fanta and Dr Pepper are a substitute for Bucky !
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#196 Online Ed &
#197 Robabody
Yes, the Herald's Major boost for SNP’s clampdown on alcohol has not been pulled, but they have classified it under HEALTH rather than POLITICS to make it less obvious.
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If anyone is curious about the content of my recently blocked posts, a Google search on 'Davina Wotherspoon' will throw up links to some interesting articles.
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194. At 08:08am on 13 Feb 2010, tamO wrote:
enneffess 176
It’s sick because your delusional, you think the unionist cabal who are in charge of the bbc in Scotland care about positioning in a future independent Scotland.
What have unionist from Scotland shown over the years, if nothing else is that no sacrifices is too small to maintain the union.
------------------
Cobblers.
The BBC executives will be interested otherwise quite a few senior jobs will disappear. But you obviously have insider information, so please share it with us.
I'm not delusional.
Oh, and if you must resort to petty insults, at least learn to spell correctly:
You're or you are
And I still do not understand why you think I am sick or delusional. Are you a qualified doctor?
By all means criticise my points or disagree with them. But resorting to childish insults in your manner is both immature and shows a lack of debating skills.
There's enough of that on this blog without you adding to it.
---------------------------------
193. Scarymannie:
As I pointed out earlier, the Sun is being aggressively marketed in Glasgow city centre, mainly in the morning, since the Evening Times still sells well.
The vendors I have to negotiate are at St Enoch's square (beside the cash machines near Argyle Street, and outside Central Station close to the bus stops on Hope Street. Both of these locations have a significant number of pedestrians in the morning, and the vendors stand in front of you like chuggers - and I HATE that.
But it's working.
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#201 albamac .... i'll bet Jack was sitting low in his seat as Iain Gray stood up ranting for heads to roll.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/NATIONAL+LAMPOON%3B+First+Minister's+crime+crusade+is+descending+into...-a0108209196
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Thanks everyone - yes Brownedov that's the one, I don't think I've seen such an important story consigned to the 'articles graveyard' so fast before.
Did the BBC cover this very significant story at all?
They have after all been very keen to muscle into the alcohol debate of late haven't they?
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199. Scarymannie:
Have you ever tasted Dr Pepper? Special Brew is more appealing!
I think the 50p a unit may be a pyschological barrier, in the same way as prices used to show 2.99 instead of 3.00 (until the advent of the pound stores).
And Sturgeon has it bang on when she points out that a balance needs to be struck.
But what is the betting that somehow Gray will twist this argument and say that the Scottish Government is not going far enough.
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#205 enneffess
'Have you ever tasted Dr Pepper? Special Brew is more appealing!'
sorry i'm a Tennents Super man myself.
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I wonder who thought that attacking Nicola Sturgeon in this way was wise when this story was just lurking under the surface ...
http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/daily-mail-london-england-the/mi_8002/is_2003_Sept_23/letter-police-minister-nobble-thugs/ai_n37033590/
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#190 oldnat
"Apologies btw for my earlier post re the Lab manifesto for 2003. That was indeed the 2007 one."
Afraid so, but at least it demonstrates that NuLab were edging back even before May 2007, by saying completion that "Labour will Complete the Glasgow and Edinburgh airport rail links; re-open the Waverley line from Edinburgh to the Borders, Airdrie – Bathgate line and Stirling – Alloa; and complete the Waverley station upgrade all in the lifetime of the next Parliament." (ie by 2011) compared to the 2003 BBC snippet's "Deliver rail links to Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports by 2010", but for now the BBC reference is the best proof available.
Google books tells us that the 2003 manifesto was On your side: Scottish Labour's manifesto 2003 but shows no copies actually available anywhere, but links to WorldCat which shows 4 editions published in 2003 in English and held by 4 libraries worldwide including 3 UK ones: British Library at Wetherby, University of Glasgow Library and University of Strathclyde. In fact, the 4th seems also to be the University of Glasgow Library who catalogue the electronic version separately, but merely as a link to the defunct 2003 campaign site rather than a copy on their own servers.
There must be an archive of political PDFs out there somewhere, but I haven't discovered it yet!
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*207
Good digging Scarymannie (where's a mainstream press investigative reporter when you need one).
Hope Gray gets the 'hands up' question over this.
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60. tamO
"The bbc news channel has be used as propaganda channel for the labour and tory party for months..."
That may be true. But destroying the BBC and abandoning the principle of public service broadcasting is hardly a rational response. Think babies and bathwater.
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207. At 10:14am on 13 Feb 2010, Scarymannie wrote:
I wonder who thought that attacking Nicola Sturgeon in this way was wise when this story was just lurking under the surface ...
http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/daily-mail-london-england-the/mi_8002/is_2003_Sept_23/letter-police-minister-nobble-thugs/ai_n37033590/
Wow !! - excellent work digging this up guys.
Even I wouldn't have beleived such a story was lying dormant.
The refusal to publish the contents of the letter is damning.
Now, Mr McConnell was very quick to reveal how aghast he was at a lunch fundraiser - I wonder how he or the current leader will explain this and whether Jack McConnell agrees with calls for Nicola Sturgeon to resign.
The Scottish media almost certainly won't report this, it is up to us to report it.
Newsnet Scotland were considering doing a piece on Sturgeon's letter and the media/Unionist reaction - I'm going try to find time for this revelation.
The small band of Unionists who control Scotland's media are feasting on froth created by themselves. They will no doubt influence most of the politically ignorant but those who are willing to apply logic, reason and common sense will see this for what it is.
The BBC is very kindly providing all sorts of links to newspapers prepared to cite their own smear as evidence of some kind of wrongdoing.
Anyway - back to work, it's going to be a busy week putting the next edition of Newsnet Scotland together.
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Thanks, but albamac has to take the credit for making my nose twitch !
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72. tamO
"http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/news/a202831/salmond-closes-on-sky-election-debate.html
looks like sky are up for a deal "
"The other parties however do not want Salmond involved in the debates as he is not a candidate for Prime Minister."
There are no "candidates" for PM. There is no election for PM. You can't have candidates for a non-existent election. Given this plain fact, we have to wonder what the unionists are really afraid of.
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#211, Online Ed
"Wow !! - excellent work digging this up guys"
The digging was easy! Unfortunately my discoveries were buried by BWB. ;)
Quirky!
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#212, Scarymannie
I'm still wondering why my posts, on this and the previous thread, were blocked.
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71. brigadierjohn
"#67 Brownedov: It's nothing to do with a closed shop. The code is recognised by the Press Council to cover all journalists."
Your efforts to portray yourself as some kind of expert in this matter are let down more than somewhat by your repeated references to the "Press Council" - an organisation which ceased to exist almost two decades ago.
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#215 albamac .. i was a little surprised they passed moderation as well. The good thing is they are out and all those hyenas that were agreeing with Iain Gray on here must now agree on how stupid they all look. What other dirt is there out there i wonder ?
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Well done too Albamac.
I wonder how trying to influence a police prosecution before it comes to trial compares to asking for sentencing alternatives to be considered at a trial's end?
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#176 enneffess
"I think the Tories are starting to realise that Cameron is not the best choice. He will probably win the election but a big part of that will be the desire for a change of government. My preferred choices are William Hague or Boris."
I take your point re BoJo, but I suspect that Hague will not be given a second chance. The problem for Cameron is that while the UK Tories have put on a show of unity, their divisions over the EU have in no sense been healed during their 13 years out of power and in the meantime they have virtually ignored NuLab's asymmetric devolution at their peril. Their inability to trounce UKIP in the last two euro elections has strengthened the likes of Hannan and weakened the power of the few remaining "one nation" Tories, of whom Cameron is on the extreme right wing. Whether Cameron wins or not, I foresee his problems in getting his lobby fodder to hold the party line increasing even above those of Major.
#178 enneffess
"Ah, but you know how they will counter this: "but we are not in government in Scotland and therefore were unable to blah blah blah"."
Quite so re their 2007 back pedalling, but it makes getting chapter and verse from their 2003 manifesto all the more important. The BBC quote we have is just about reliable enough to go with, but the actual wording would be better.
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#177 JRMacClure
"I thought it was pretty honest. It didn't ignore the supposed scandals of the past weeks, but that wouldn't be honest either."
Yes, my only reservation was that they were one of the orchestrators only the day before. We'll soon see if they stop the one-sided attacks against Sturgeon and start presenting both sides of the issue.
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RE #208 (Brownedov)
As a student at Glasgow Uni, I would offer to go to the library and take out the paper copy of the manifesto, but according to the servers it is already out and not due back until May 4th.
Convenient...
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#217, Scarymannie
Forgot to thank you for taking your turn on the shovel! :)
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#222 Shovel ... i think we may need a JCB !
I cant see that the SNP weren't aware of this one so i wonder what game they are playing ? Alex needs to make the opposition look stupid ..erm i mean stupider.
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219. Brownedov
National Library of Scotland has a copy
On your side : Scottish Labour's manifesto 2003.
Authors: Scottish Labour Party.
Consult in : General Reading Room (stored offsite)
Shelfmark : QP4.203.1512
Status : Available
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#221 mazel_tov
"Glasgow Uni ... library ... according to the servers it is already out and not due back until May 4th ... Convenient..."
Thanks for trying, and there's a shock - not. I wonder if Strathclyde's copy has also been borrowed?
Anyone visiting Wetherby soon, I wonder?
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Anybody hear auld Angus MacLeod of the Times on Radio Scotland this morning? He had an air of doom about him as he intoned that Nicola Sturgeon must be 'awaiting with trrepidation' what might be revealed in the Sunday papers...and if there is anything, then she's 'toast'. He went on to say he didn't know of any journalist or any paper who had found anything....
'sighs'
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206. Scarymannie:
"sorry i'm a Tennents Super man myself."
Is it caffeine free?
-----------------------
On the Tories, John Major wasn't really that bad, I can think of others far worse.
But Cameron is now being exposed to what he really is. He's trying to be Blair. He's trying to appeal to everyone.
I forsee (Nostradamus time!) the Tories winning the election, but then losing the following one. The party will disintegrate after that with the now reformed Labour party filling the vacuum. Scotland, Wales and NI will have moved on to a form of devmax. The UK changes into a federal state within a federal Europe. Within 50 years Europe is governed from Brussels with member states reduced to regional assemblies with limited powers.
Or am I just being cynical since I didn't win the jackpot last night!
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#217, Scarymannie
"i was a little surprised they passed moderation as well. The good thing is they are out"
Turned up on the Scotsman at 11:48, so others are carrying the torch. Like you, though, I'm wondering why the SNP hasn't dropped this bomb on Labour.
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#216 Electric Hermit: You obviously missed my #104 in which I corrected myself. It's just force of habit - I was under the old Press Council yoke for the best part of 30 years. But wasn't that a rather petty and trivial comment to make?
Someone suggested earlier that I was "firing blanks." Well, the mods would disallow the live stuff. You know, the real truth. But it's not my intention to harm anyone, least of all the innocents who follow our Great Leader, so I'll send the blanks to the US Army. Our troops will be safer.
#159 Teenie: No I did not know what she was on about. And yes, I did think it was a bit of banter. I mistakenly thought you had a sense of humour. But I was spot on about your maturity, eh?
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its clear that Labour have adopted a plan to attack SNP Ministers on every subject possible continually seeking resignations or is it 'headlines', is the reality that this is simply a tactic to ensure the Scottish public do not vote SNP in the forthcoming GE thereby in their mind allowing the Tories to win, (polls may tell a different story in any event and Labour votes in Scotland unlikely to make a mark).
It is an interesting tactic in that similar stories may surface in due course involving Labour members indeed the Jack McConnel story is beginning to resurface from 2003 . Is this a price they are willing to pay?
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#224 Not Free Yet
"National Library of Scotland has a copy"
Thanks, but I'm afraid that's 2877Km from my current location via the Eurotunnel, so I won't be visiting soon. Anyone more local, I wonder?
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The 2007 Labour manifesto is still on the BBC site - halfway down the following page:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6539899.stm
Not sure if the direct link is allowed - [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Just realised that's not the year in question. Please ignore.
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Brownedov re 231
I am sure you could do with a holiday.
I would be surprised if the SNP do not archive other partys election manifesto pledges, so I would think that they have one.
The bigger mystery to me is why they did not use the 2003 pledge to counter all the rubbish that came out.
Its also unclear why the SNP are not attacking the £1 billion of Scotlands money that the administration of 2003/2007 returned to Westminster. Presumably Labour thought that Londons needs were greater than Scotlands, no change there then!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8513783.stm
I thought most MPs already did........
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I wonder if this is of any interest
http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/5441-the-rumour-mill
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#235 NFS
You'll no get MPs voting for more hours for the same pay.
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#211 Online Ed
There does seem to be plenty to go on with this story, although having searched Holyrood's Official Reports 2003 and other Holyrood material, the issue doesn't seem to have been raised in the chamber, so we probably need to understand a bit more about how it was dealt with "officially".
A search of highbeam.com reveals 6 articles from the Daily Mail, 4 from the Sunday Mail and 1 from the Mirror, of which much the most interesting seems to be the Daily Mail's McConnell's 'secret' letter angers Tories.
Apparently published on the morning of FMQs, this tells us that:
THE Tories last night demanded Jack McConnell come clean about the contents of a controversial letter in which he questioned police arresting and charging two thugs who terrorised a nurse. Tory justice spokesman Annabel Goldie warned the First Minister to clear the air amid speculation he 'interfered' with the justice system. The procurator fiscal dropped charges against Daniel Quinn and Gerard McKee after Mr McConnell wrote to police officers on behalf of the father of one of the men.
Unfortunately, it doesn't tell us how the warning by Aunty Bella was delivered.
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#227 enneffess
"Within 50 years Europe is governed from Brussels with member states reduced to regional assemblies with limited powers."
If by that you mean that there will be a common currency, with defence and foreign affairs handled centrally by the EU, I would not object at all but would be somewhat concerned over the power of unitary and expansionist France, especially if they play silly Bs over Catalonia and the Basque country.
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#234 dubbieside
"I am sure you could do with a holiday."
Yes, but I am supposed to be having one until the summer, Brownedova permitting, when a mixture of work and family duties will take over. I'm reluctant to move away from my current, sat-friendly, location before the UK general election games are over.
I take your point re the other issues you raise. Simply keeping the powder dry for the GE campaign, perhaps?
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238. Brownedov
Interesting quote from that Mail article
"McKee's father John, a friend of Mr McConnell's Westminster colleague Frank Roy , made a plea to the First Minister about the case, as his constituency MSP. Mr McConnell insists he was simply acting as any politician would on behalf of a constituent."
Is this the same Jack McConnell who said "he would have sacked Ms Sturgeon immediately had this happened under his administration. He said that, as Deputy First Minister, Ms Sturgeon has a role in judicial appointments – she deputises for the First Minister on occasions.
Mr McConnell said it was totally wrong for the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister or the Justice Secretary to try to intervene in court cases given their positions in government."?
http://politics.caledonianmercury.com/2010/02/11/nicola-sturgeon-to-make-%E2%80%98emergency%E2%80%99-statement-to-parliament/
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What is it about the Governor Generals of the subject nations that they can't open mouth without inserting foot?
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2010/02/11/hain-jeered-for-wales-richer-than-rwanda-comments-91466-25810023/
"PETER HAIN was jeered in the Commons yesterday for saying Wales was better off than Rwanda "
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The Labour Party's 2003 manifesto is still available online - even though it has been removed from the Labour Party website. Most old webpages are archived at the Internet Archive. Unfortunately the Archive isn't directly searchable, but all is not lost. A search on Google turns up some pages still online which contain a (dead) link to the 2003 manifesto. Once you have the dead link to the removed page, copy and paste it into the "Take Me Back" box on the main page at http://www.archive.org and press the button.
It's an essential resource for researchers and anyone who wants to cast someone's old words back in their face...
And here's a (working) link to the 2003 Manifesto
http://web.archive.org/web/20050911173255/www.scottishlabour.org.uk/manifestocontents/
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243. InfrequentAllele2
"It's an essential resource for researchers and anyone who wants to cast someone's old words back in their face"
Great tip for us oldies! Thanks.
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#241 oldnat
"Is this the same Jack McConnell ... ?"
Yep, but what's satisfying about the story is that it was Aunty Bella herself who was the attack canine lady, making it very hard for even the Scotlandshire MSM to twist it into a "double standards" issue.
#242 oldnat
"PETER HAIN was jeered in the Commons"
Hadn't spotted that, but always nice to see trouble for the man who ranks just below Bliar in my estimation of NuLab infamy.
The story itself demonstrates how much London Labour wish they could put the devolution toothpaste back in the tube when it tells us that "Assembly Members had voted unanimously to hold a referendum on strengthening the Assembly’s powers, and the decision to proceed now lies with the Welsh Secretary Mr Hain" while "Welsh MPs kept the future of the Assembly firmly off the agenda". How Cameron must be relishing looking at his "enemies within" and deciding which ones to "award" the three viceregal poisoned chalices he expects soon to have in his gift.
The "divorce" with Scotland will almost certainly come first but it's hard to see Wales being too far behind. Perhaps Mr Gray should holiday there in order to spend some time with the new Welsh FM - who, after all, is of his own party - to get some tips on how best to deal with the Skeletor and his successor?
Duty calls now, but back later, I hope.
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No sooner has David Cameron offered ANOTHER olive branch to the SNP at the Tory Conference in Perth - today he strays into devolved matters by uttering this little Gem;
"I think in advising that there should not be a custodial sentence that does seem to me to cross a line" - David Cameron (on Nicola Sturgeons letter to a sentencing Judge)
Well... anyone see the contradiction? (and I don't mean the fact that Cameron broke his promise as soon as he made it)
I'll give you a hint. It's in the word "advising"
is Nicola Sturgeon a Judge? Retired QC? Imminent Attorney General? I thought those were the ilk that proffered ADVICE to sitting Judges.
Nicola Sturgeons letter to the Judge didn't ADVISE anything. I know - I've read it. It asked the judge to CONSIDER a sentence other than custody.
Lets have a look at what David Camerons statement would have looked like had he not played fast and loose with the truth;
"I think in asking a judge to consider that there should not be a custodial sentence that does seem to me to cross a line"
No it doesn't - it looks like prompting to consider which course of action you should take. Nicola shouldn't stand down on the account of her letter of "consideration" anymore than I should lose my Job by asking my employer to consider my record of service when I ask for a pay-rise.
This is utter onionist buffoonery. Will someone please slap some sense into these idiots who mindlessly call for the heads of SNP ministers.
I despair, I really do.
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#243 InfrequentAllele2
"Internet Archive"
Many thanks. Just waiting for my last post to clear and glad I did!
To my shame I have that site bppkmarked on my work machine but after five weeks away had forgotten it.
Better still, you can download the genuine PDF here, by clicking on the Onyourside link at the bottom of the page. This does give you the real McCoy PDF, with document properties telling us that it was created by Acrobat Distiller 5 for Mac by QuarkXPress(tm)4.1 pn 7 April 2003 at 12:39:51 for A3 paper, which would certainly be right on timing and for the era.
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246. Gary Hay
"I despair, I really do.
"
Having just read Cameron's wholly inappropriate intervention I totally sympathise with you. The man is an idiot.
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#243 InfrequentAllele2
Brilliant and many thanks. Having this info has probably saved me some embarassment.
I am convinced that there is nothing this group can't do.
I am sure that the manifesto will produce more grist for the mill.
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I know that some here think Cameron's a idiot but he is on reporting scotland and again on the politics show your learders in the snp are not.
who's the idiot sorry who's getting taken for one not cameron.
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250. tamO
You may judge the man by his TV appearances. I'll judge him by his utterances.
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241. At 2:30pm on 13 Feb 2010, oldnat wrote:
238. Brownedov
Interesting quote from that Mail article
"McKee's father John, a friend of Mr McConnell's Westminster colleague Frank Roy , made a plea to the First Minister about the case, as his constituency MSP. Mr McConnell insists he was simply acting as any politician would on behalf of a constituent."
Is this the same Jack McConnell who said "he would have sacked Ms Sturgeon immediately had this happened under his administration. He said that, as Deputy First Minister, Ms Sturgeon has a role in judicial appointments – she deputises for the First Minister on occasions.
Mr McConnell said it was totally wrong for the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister or the Justice Secretary to try to intervene in court cases given their positions in government."?
http://politics.caledonianmercury.com/2010/02/11/nicola-sturgeon-to-make-%E2%80%98emergency%E2%80%99-statement-to-parliament/
Well done oldnat, I was praying that Jack couldn't resist the temptation to jump in.
By the way - there's one last (promise!!) query.
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The 2003 Labour manifesto simply states:
"rail links to Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports - delivered by 2010 and providing better links for business visitors and tourists coming to Scotland"
So it's obvious they were intending to do most of the work next session (but they weren't elected...)
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Well you all sit at home knitting, The bbc in Scotland’s unionist cabal are even advertising there next kick the Nat event, its not that the cabal support Cameron they may well think the same as you but here’s the thing its not about him its about nats bashing.
I love the way you centre on your own thoughts but I think the unionist bbc have a wider net in mind
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252. Online Ed
Explanation and link sent.
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To 189 and others.
If you are looking for more on Labour's transport policies and specifically GARL then the document that you want is "Building Better Transport" written in March 2003 which sets out what they intend to do. The forward to the document is written by the thenMinister for Transport, Mr Iain Gray. Follow this link:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2003/03/16553/19098
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213. Electric Hermit
"There are no "candidates" for PM. There is no election for PM. You can't have candidates for a non-existent election. Given this plain fact, we have to wonder what the unionists are really afraid of."
Not only that, my (admittedly limited) understanding is that you don't even have to be an MP to be the Prime Minister. Haven't there been at least one or two who were not?
What blatant dishonesty has been used to try to keep the SNP out of this debate!
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257. JRMacClure
"Not only that, my (admittedly limited) understanding is that you don't even have to be an MP to be the Prime Minister."
Strictly speaking, that is true. It certainly is no more than convention that the leader of the largest party in parliament becomes PM. The fiction of a Prime Ministerial contest is a quite blatant contrivance to exclude the SNP from what would actually be Party Political Broadcasts.
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255. At 4:41pm on 13 Feb 2010, oldnat wrote:
252. Online Ed
Explanation and link sent.
Received !!
I never doubted you.
People - great blog today, a goldmine of information.
This stuff is what makes the casual blog reader think.
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#242 oldnat:
"PETER HAIN was jeered in the Commons yesterday for saying Wales was better off than Rwanda "
Malawi is better off than Scotland. We’ve still got Joke McConnell.
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just back from Greenhill Road and may I say not best pleased ,Brian , with your teams smash and grab efforts ,3 points dropped by St Mirren.
I am sure there is more mud out there ,Jack McConnell cannot be the only one. the problem is of course getting a media outlet to carry it .
quite concerned that the usual suspects have said nothing of yet. no doubt when they can find nothing else on Ms Sturgeon we can look forward to full page interviews with lord haw haw and the Governor general aka the SOSAS.
Sid
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
#262 Huh!? Why would anybody refer one of oldnat's posts?
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262. oldnat
I see that my reference to the former First Minister making representations in the case referred to in #238 above, has been referred to the mods.
So - #260 tullibardine
Sir! (or madam, or the salutation of your choice)
Your wholly unjustified assertion that Malawi is better off without Joke McConnell should be treated with contempt/disdain/salt/pepper/condiment of your choice!
Malawi has serious difficulties with the administration of justice, and requires the input from a former First Minister of Scotland who has intimate knowledge of the procedures involved in ensuring that no one - especially anyone with a close political connection - should ever be involved in such matters.
You will be aware that these matters would only be serious if a politician supportive of the independence of Malawi represented the interests of their constituent. Should similar action be taken by a politician who supported Malawi's return to colonial status - clearly that would be wholly justifiable.
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257. At 4:46pm on 13 Feb 2010, JRMacClure wrote:
"Not only that, my (admittedly limited) understanding is that you don't even have to be an MP to be the Prime Minister. Haven't there been at least one or two who were not?"
The last one (I think) was in the 1800s. When Chamberlain resigned, Lord Halifax ALMOST became PM instead of Churchill. But apparently Halifax turned down the opportunity.
Makes you wonder about a certain individual currently in the cabinet!
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265. enneffess
"The last one (I think) was in the 1800s. When Chamberlain resigned, Lord Halifax ALMOST became PM instead of Churchill. But apparently Halifax turned down the opportunity."
v
The important point is that no UK Prime Minister has ever been directly elected. Because it is not a directly elected office. There is no Prime Ministerial election, therefore there can be no candidates, therefore there can be no candidates' debates.
Simples!
Except if you are an obsessive unionist, of course.
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265. enneffess
"The last one (I think) was in the 1800s."
PEDANT ALERT!!
The last one was the Earl of Home, who was in the Lords when appointed as PM on 19 Oct 1963. While he renounced his peerage on 23 October, he wasn't elected to the Commons until 8 Nov 1963. Parliament's recall was delayed until after the by election for Perth & Kinross - so between 23 October and 8 Nov 1963, the Prime Minister was a member of neither of the Houses of Parliament.
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#266
Sherman! a blast from the voltage store? are you suggesting we should have a presidential race.Primary run offs then full elections?.
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New Com Res poll - E&W only
Con 42% : Lab 28% : LD 21%
Tory lead of 14%
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269. oldnat
"Tory lead of 14%"
We're doomed!
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270. Electric Hermit
"We're doomed!"
No more doomed than if Labour had a 14% lead in E&W! We get a government in the UK that doesn't represents our interests either way.
Certainly, voting Labour won't protect Scotland!
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#279 Electric Hermit
Not if we elect 30 SNP MPs we're not.
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271. oldnat
"No more doomed than if Labour had a 14% lead in E&W!"
Fair point.
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Interesting comment from the CEO of ComRes
"The figures point to Labour voters threatening to stay away on election day: 24% of DEs ["working class" and those at "lowest levels of susbsistence" according to the NRS social grading system] are ‘certain not to vote’, almost twice the 13% of that group who said the same in February 2005."
While this is primarily English data, if the same thing is replicated here, then more than Ochil might be be vulnerable.
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I could swear I saw Nichola Sturgeon give someone a dirty look the other day, I think she should resign and just hand all the power over to Labour who will save us from falling over at the end of the world.
Wake up Iain Gray your cornflakes are ready!
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272. handclapping
"Not if we elect 30 SNP MPs we're not."
Another fair point!
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Labour must getting worried STURGEON WINS BLOGGER’S BACKING IN FRAUDSTER ROW when will they start slating Brian's blether.
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248. Electric Hermit says: "The man is an idiot".
Coming from a 0.1 of a Watt Electric Hermit. How come every other party and a healthy quantity of nationalists think that Nicola's judgment on this is questionable. The only exceptions being the odd angry sometimes incandescent paranoid victimized Nat.
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Amicusalba:
#278.
It's not a matter if Nicola's actions were questionable. It's if Nicola is wrong, did she do something she wasn't suppose to?
She's not the only person representing criminals.
Therefore the debate should have changed to changing the current system to exclude criminals instead of smearing a political rival.
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Don't Panic! Messing up Mainwaring's pretend plans
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#274 oldnat
24%! and giving that H&H refocused the new labour agenda, I would suspect that the number of no voters would rise higher.
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278. amicusalba
"How come every other party and a healthy quantity of nationalists think that Nicola's judgment on this is questionable. The only exceptions being the odd angry sometimes incandescent paranoid victimized Nat."
Indeed! Why Jack McConnell so questions it that assures us he would fire her IMMEDIATELY--just like he fired HIMSELF:
Jack McConnell defends criminals
Hypocrisy much? Why I am just so impressed with the honesty and integrity of those "other parties" I can't even tell you. Well, that's a lie. Now I might apply the same word to Mr. Jack McConnell's comments and they hypocritical blathering of "the other parties" but the moderators wouldn't like it. =)
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#264 oldnat
ROFL, but tut tut for not bowdlerising your #262
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279. Tom
"Therefore the debate should have changed to changing the current system to exclude criminals instead of smearing a political rival."
But that would require honest debate of a kind I have yet to see Labour engage in.
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246. Gary Hay
"
"I think in advising that there should not be a custodial sentence that does seem to me to cross a line"
- David Cameron (on Nicola Sturgeons letter to a sentencing Judge)"
This sort of stuff shows Cameron for the weasel that he is - let's restore trust in British politics, eh?
Does anyone know when he spoke to the bbc?
I ask because I want to give them a fair chance to do so, but it wouldn't surprise me if the SNP don't seem to want to opportunistic dishonesty by the leader of UK political party and a possible next PM!
Keeping dry powder for elections? Fine for policy related stuff, but sleekit opportunistic attacks deserve swift and unequivocal responses.
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278. amicusalba
"How come every other party and a healthy quantity of nationalists think that Nicola's judgment on this is questionable."
They don't! The "opposition" simply attack anything and everything because they have nothing else to offer. Nobody who knows what Sturgeon did, and what the rules and accepted practice are, can possibly think that she did anything wrong. We know for an absolute fact that "every other party" holds supporting a constituent's plea in mitigation to be right and proper because they all do it.
One can only pity the intellectual cripples who imagine a thing to be so for no better reason than that a buffoon like Iain Gray says so.
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278. amicusalba
As you are a good Tory, why are you not condemning the actions of a First Minister becoming involved in a criminal case before any charges had been brought?
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267. oldnat
"The last one was the Earl of Home, who was in the Lords when appointed as PM on 19 Oct 1963. While he renounced his peerage on 23 October, he wasn't elected to the Commons until 8 Nov 1963. Parliament's recall was delayed until after the by election for Perth & Kinross - so between 23 October and 8 Nov 1963, the Prime Minister was a member of neither of the Houses of Parliament."
I knew I had read about it happening at some point. The points being:
There IS not election for a Prime Minister
and
The Prime Minister is not even required to be a PM.
So what are the arguments for excluding the governing party of Scotland from these debates again? (assuming the answer isn't that they're afraid of Alex Salmond ;) )
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#278 - "How come every other party and a healthy quantity of nationalists think that Nicola's judgment on this is questionable. "
The other parties doesn't care whether Nicola's judgement is suspect or not. They know that, with the help of the complicit MSM, they can use this to whip unionists (and a healthy quantity of others) into a rabid, frenzied mob.
There is no denying that Abdul Rauf is a crook. However, he is not the only one who will suffer from his imprisonment and his family have not been found guilty of any wrongdoing.
Again, the SNP, with their forward looking and compassiate stance, show how backward and self-serving the opposition actually is.
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269. oldnat
"New Com Res poll - E&W only
Con 42% : Lab 28% : LD 21%
Tory lead of 14%"
Ouch for Labour! Some of the polls had made it seem they were gaining a bit -- or the Tories slipping a bit to be more accurate. Perhaps not. (PB must be happy lol)
The idea of Labour defending Scotland is too silly for words. Has the word "Scotland" ever even issued from Gordon Brown's lips? It's "North Britain" isn't it?
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277. cynicalHighlander
ROFL! Margaret Curran's response is everything i'd expect from her! A fine-grained Burroughs-like text cut-up of political spin & pulp horror fiction, straight from the screaming skull herself!
She cracks me up!
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287. oldnat
"278. amicusalba
As you are a good Tory, why are you not condemning the actions of a First Minister becoming involved in a criminal case before any charges had been brought?"
Don't be a silly boy. Labour isn't doesn't form the government in Scotland at the moment. No point in smearing them with hypocritical blatherings.
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#282 JRMacClure
Quite so. Each of the archived articles adds a little to what we know. Re the one you quote, one wonders whether Mr McC's letter ever reached the public domain and simultaneously notes with little surprise that the MSM had to be cajoled to publish Ms Sturgeon's letter.
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#281 kered
Don't forget that in all these polls, the number who say they won't vote is only about 13%, when, in reality, 40% don't vote on the day. It's just another wee indicator of how seriously adrift these polls really are in any particular aspect of their results. Though to be fair, in aggregate for a two horse race they will be "accurate" on a sample of 1,000+. I'm sure some statistical wizzard, it says it on the hat, will let us know the appropriate sample size figures for 3 and 4 horse races.
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278. amicusalba
"Coming from a 0.1 of a Watt Electric Hermit. How come every other party and a healthy quantity of nationalists think that Nicola's judgment on this is questionable. The only exceptions being the odd angry sometimes incandescent paranoid victimized Nat."
Every other party are trying to make cheap political capital.
Show me the natationalists (not talking party's any more now?) who question her judgement.
Trying to set up anyone who doesn't fall into your asinine categories as incandescent, paranoid, victimized is as feeble as it is obvious - put some effort into it at least.
The issue EH was referring to wasn't even specifically about differing views on Strugeon' decision, but rather the fact that the Cameron chose to be dishonest about it!
The letter itself is there for all to read - the request (not advice, as CMD sleekitly put it) was not for there to be a non-custodial sentence (as sleekit Dave put it); rather that non-custodial options be considered (and that within the context of the rest of the letter too).
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274. oldnat
"more than Ochil might be be vulnerable."
Healthy, functioning democracy?
:(
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285. mrbfaethedee
Oops -
"SNP don't seem to want to opportunistic dishonesty"
Should have read -
"SNP don't seem to want to respond to opportunistic dishonesty"
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288. JRMacClure
"So what are the arguments for excluding the governing party of Scotland from these debates again?"
The same ones used by the Republicans and Democrats in Asheville NC when they agreed a policy that would stop any candidate not endorsed by either of them from standing for the Town Council. (They failed on appeal of course).
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297. mrbfaethedee
"SNP don't seem to want to respond to opportunistic dishonesty"
Long may they continue to distinguish themselves from the contemptible rabble currently posing as the opposition in Holyrood.
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#294 handclapping
Good point! the 40% figure could well rise in many constituencies.
South of the border they are facing real threats that the BNP will return an elected MP. Can you imagine the reality of policing a ward controlled by the BNP in todays economic climate, where unemployment will rise and there will be a continued shortage of social housing.
We here in Scotland also face many future problems, when over 60% of the electorate feel unrepresented and any future cuts will surely hurt the most vulnerable most.
There's no surprise many politicians like Gray want to play hard ball and call court orders, they've lost control of society and certainly there are no politicians in todays world that can bragg about holding the peoples confidence.
Hanclapping it's 60% and most probably rising! who wants to vote for savage cuts and the possibility of losing their job?. Now thats the reality of this election.
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#282 - "Jack McConnell defends criminals"
Whilst bearing in mind that the guys in question weren't actually convicted of anything (the case was dropped), I think even the Brigadier would find it hard to defend the competence and integrity of any journalist who quoted McConnell's criticism of Sturgeon without reminding him (or at the very least, the readers) of his involvment in that particular case.
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#301 ForteanJo
'Whilst bearing in mind that the guys in question weren't actually convicted of anything (the case was dropped)'
Apparently the case was dropped because the witness's failed to turn up at court. Supposing that said witness's might have been nurses or hospital porters ...what is the chance that they would have been in a union of some sort.... how much persuading would it take to encourage a witness to take a sicky on the day of court. All hypothetical of course.
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#300 kered
It's a shame there isn't a SNP organisation for Nationalist Unionists, or to use Harperspeak Unionpersons. What was wrong with Brothers and Sisters?
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301. ForteanJo
"Whilst bearing in mind that the guys in question weren't actually convicted of anything (the case was dropped)..."
Which means that McConnell, in his capacity as First Minister(?), interfered with a police investigation. A very different thing from supporting a plea in mitigation. The latter being a perfectly legitimate part of an MSP's duties, while the former is plainly improper.
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
At last "Serious questions" for Cameron and McConnell?
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A wee bit off-topic, but given this from the beeb's 2009 editorial guidlines:
"
• Pre-moderation is where material cannot be accessed by visitors to the
website until the moderator has seen it and decided it is suitable for posting.
Spaces designed to appeal to children are usually pre-moderated
(See Section 9 Children and Young People as Contributors: Online Protection)
• Post-moderation is where the moderator sees the material after it has been
published and decides whether it is suitable to remain. This is likely to be
suitable for sites which attract robust debate about current affairs
"
Why are we still being premoderated?
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299. Electric Hermit
"Long may they continue to distinguish themselves from the contemptible rabble currently posing as the opposition in Holyrood."
I agree with the sentiment EH.
But it's not simply a choice between being supine or part of a rabble.
They can pick and chose what to respond to (instead of everything, all the time like the rabble), they can choose the nature of the response (instead of desparate 'off with his/her head' all the time, like the rabble).
But nothing, all the time...
?
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307. mrbfaethedee
Its called do as we say not as we say we will do, labour party manifesto systems apply.
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308. mrbfaethedee
"They can pick and chose what to respond to (instead of everything, all the time like the rabble), they can choose the nature of the response..."
Part of me agrees. It would be satisfying, at a somewhat primitive level, to see Salmond and his team hitting back in a judicious way. But I suspect they know that the media would simply twist this against them.
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Brian (or anyone else), I forgot to ask;
what was the skelping that Cameron gave to the First Minister?
I'm assuming it's not the 'quip' about Salmond never being UK PM, you know the leader of the party that doesn't want to be in the UK not ever being the UK's PM! Salmond must be gutted!
If not that, what?
'A skelping' is fairly clear indication of a clear, almost casual, and comprehensive doing over.
I'd love to hear what part of the speech merits the description.
Or was it more of a POV piece for the ragtag tory diehards up here in jockland?
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A useful resource Edited Electoral Roll Consultation once a freedom is lost it will be hard to recover.
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#303
Does an organisation exist! that support an idea that only 10% of Scots are entitled to employment within the North sea oil industry?.
There's no harm in being a realist! and there is probably more harm in being a delusionist.
Equality! what equality! it never has existed in todays or yesterdays society.
I prefer my wife to cook the meals! does that mean I have no equlity sense?.
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313. kered
"I prefer my wife to cook the meals! does that mean I have no equlity sense?"
Probably means that you never bothered to learn to cook!
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#314 oldnat
LoL! the "A" frame of learning, still why go into a bath with your socks on. I often put the dogs leash on, then tell the wife to walk the dog! more unequal stuff from me I would Hazzard a guess at!.
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#313 kered
If you're a rotten cook, it shows she's got sense
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315. kered
"more unequal stuff from me"
"Derek through the Looking Glass". A book where the names are reversed and the Labour Party is the party of big business! That would be a strange phenomenon!
tandlo
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315. kered
Or she needs the exercise more than you feel you need. Re cooking my wife might get fed up of scrambled, boiled, poached or fried offerings with its yeast fed accompaniments!
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#306 cynicalHighlander
Thanks for the link. Jeff Breslin's noting that Cameron's speech mentioned neither Goldie nor Mundell prompted me to take another look at how much "RESPECT FOR SCOTLAND" he was showing, and the answer seems to be a very clear "not a lot".
First, without surprising anybody he says:
"So yes, we do take seriously the Calman Commission's recommendations to give more powers to Holyrood. The Commission is right to say devolution is working well but could be better. That's why I have committed to producing our own White Paper and legislation to deal with the issues raised by Calman. And I don't want anyone to doubt this."
I personally don't doubt that he would produce a white paper and legislation to amend the Scotland Act 1998 but he clearly sees any changes as purely a matter for Westmidden - much as I strongly suspect Duff Gordon will, should by some miracle he survive as PM.
Having thus dismissed the wishes of the people of Scotland, Cameron goes on to promise:
"we will cut the democratic deficit. Decentralising power - giving people the chance to make change happen through local referendums, giving neighbourhoods the right to run parks and public places, giving local councils unprecedented freedom to do what they think is right for their area, creating powerful directly elected mayors and provosts to bring civic pride and leadership to our biggest cities."
Getting in the "provosts" bit indicates that he really does mean to apply this to Scotland, but far from decentralising power, such action would recentralise it because it would require new reservations of power in the Scotland Act. If it's good for Scotland, Aunty Bella should introduce such legislation at Holyrood.
So the upshot of his "respect" agenda is that he will order his MSPs to deny the people any say in Scotland's constitutional future and that he will deny them any say in making changes to the existing constitutional settlement, irrespective of whether or not he has any MPs actually representing Scottish constituencies. Respect indeed!
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#316
LoL handclapping, how long would a rotten cook last on the good ship blighty.
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#317
Tandlo, sweet chariot! coming for to carry you home!.
Parliament has always had it's fair share of wealthy business men, at one point, only the cream of wealth could sit in parliament.
If a greedy man likes pies! he will always eat more than just one?.
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#311 mrbfaethedee
"what was the skelping that Cameron gave to the First Minister?"
Well spotted. [note to self: read Brian's threads before commenting on them]
Could it have been "I'm talking about someone you're going to see all over the TV and radio over the next few months, plugging himself at every opportunity" or perhaps "And no, I won't be bidding for one of his lunches"?
Perhaps not.
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I now despise David Cameron. That has been elevated from a mild dislike before the Al-megrahi affair to being immoderately irritated and now just full blown pissed off with him and his sound bites north of the border.
I'm at the point now where I see a highly volatile future in inter-UK Politics. For years, all I wanted was for those who supported independence to voice it, discuss it, debate it and hopefully, make it a reality. Getting there by playing by the rules set for us by the establishment that suppresses us with a culture of lies, fear and intimidation. Now, I see the cheap shots, the parlour tricks, the underhand deals, the scheming, and the blatant hypocrisy of all of the parties that are determined to keep Scotland muzzled and heeled at the mercy of Westminster.
I just can't play this game anymore. If the reality of being a Scot is that I'm a slave to the butchers’ apron, then to hell with living by their rules. I'm beginning to understand why Guido Fawkes did what he started to do - what made him decide to go after the hypocritical, lying sacks of human waste that get away with manipulating and lying to further their own ends.
Cameron made an enemy today. I'm not rich or powerful or particularly talented - but someday in the future he will pay a price for the lies he tells.
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319. Brownedov
"...prompted me to take another look at how much "RESPECT FOR SCOTLAND" he was showing, and the answer seems to be a very clear "not a lot"."
Did you seriously expect that it might be otherwise? Cameron's complicity in the effort to exclude the SNP from Party Political Broadcasts in Scotland tells us all we need to know about his "respect" for our democratically elected government, our parliament and us. I suggest we reciprocate with a similar measure of contempt.
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#320 kered
Apparently since his first proper budget in Spring 1998.
#319 Brownedov
Anent the democratic deficit, the SNP could get themselves into this GE with a vengeance ( Lard George) if they were to say that they would support the abolishion of the House of Lords, as it now exists, and its replacement by a House with 5 Lords and 72 "lords of Senate" elected on the same basis and constituencies as MEPs. After all we have 650 MPs with not enough to do except dream up ways of claiming the max from their expenses, what do we need another 730 spongers to "oversee" them for?
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#323 Gary
No, not lies, adjustments to perception aligning them with the received reality of the British point of view.
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2#69 oldnat
Were did you get your figures from?
Political Betting gives the following figures for the ComRes poll in tomorrows Indy as:
Con 40% (+2)
Lab 29% (-2)
LD 21% (+2)
This gives the Tories a lead of 11%.
What should be interesting will be the YouGov poll for the Sunday times. If that shows similar results!
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309. cynicalHighlander
Seems that way.
I don't even know why it bugs me so much; the modding's usually not too bad.
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310. Electric Hermit
"But I suspect they know that the media would simply twist this against them."
True enough, but how else to speak to the people? It's a quandry.
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Cameron's already blown it in Colony Scotland with his save the union stance. What about the people in Scotland who believe in Independence, are they wrong? Does having belief in ones country and having ambition to change really scare Tories and Labour voters so much that they are bolshy enough in making a statement before a general election... saying Scotland you have no chance because 'we' won't let you?
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319. Brownedov
One day we'll get clear analysis like that on the TV and in the papers here.
Or, heaven forbid, the Blether!
I hope.
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Are any of them worth it! Top 300 BBC salaries I would suggest not one but stand to be corrected.
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#325
Today most of the public have two councillors, two MSP's, one MP and an MEP in their constituency! yet their problems of unemployment poor schools, no jobs and poor health remain more or less the same as they were since 1998!. Why is that?.
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322. Brownedov
"Perhaps not."
Indeed!
Cochrane had it down as a 'top drawer' speech, and i'm sure the party faithful loved it; clearly doesn't take much to wake the dead these days.
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By the way the ComRes poll is now available on their site.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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323. Gary Hay
"
Cameron made an enemy today. I'm not rich or powerful or particularly talented - but someday in the future he will pay a price for the lies he tells."
I'm hoping that the price he pays is going down in history as the PM who oversaw the end of the union!
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327. Roll_On_2010
These are the GB figures. I take the data from the tables (excluding the small Scottish sample) and calculate the English/Welsh percentages. While that does decrease the match with the GB demographic to some extent, the Scottish sample is only 8.6% of the GB sample, the decreased reliability is comparatively small.
Including the Scottish sample distorts the reality of what is happening in England - ideally, I'd like to exclude the Welsh sample as well, but only Mori gives that level of information.
I've been doing this for some months now, and the situation in England is disguised by including Scotland. As a rule of thumb, add 2% to the Tories, and deduct 1% from Labour to give a rough conversion from a GB poll to the underlying English position.
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#324 Electric Hermit
"Did you seriously expect that it might be otherwise?"
No, but I did think he would be rather more circumspect than he is has been about showing his true colours this early in the campaign. It gives the SNP a very real issue well short of independence to campaign on and gives NuLab the excuse to attack Tory policy without having to show their own hand.
#325 handclapping
Those ideas would certainly be less awful than the current situation, but the only long-term solution would be for it to have equal representation for each of the four home nations, preferably becoming the chamber for "reserved" issues while the HoC becomes the English parliament. Introducing STV for both assemblies as well as the already devolved ones would allow numbers to be cut significantly - in the case of Scotland simply removing the list members.
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330. paul Hunter
"the union stance"
Quote him accurately! - "Our precious union".
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338. Brownedov
"No, but I did think he would be rather more circumspect than he is has been about showing his true colours this early in the campaign."
But he would only be circumspect if he had any regard for us. Clearly, he sees no reason to even pretend.
Or could it be that he is genuinely oblivious to the offence he causes?
Either way, the man is an irrelevance.
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333. kered
"Today most of the public have two councillors, two MSP's, one MP and an MEP in their constituency! yet their problems of unemployment poor schools, no jobs and poor health remain more or less the same as they were since 1998!. Why is that?."
Quite simple really a growing world population all looking for access to a diminishing supply of world resources and that is what what economists and politicians have ignored for decades because as I suspect they are oblivious to what really generates money.
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#337 oldnat
Okay I now understand. Thanks for the useful tip.
#339 oldnat
I am damn sure he meant to say ‘Our Precarious Union’ and not precious. That would have been nearer the truth.
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No details - other than this News of the World story
http://blogs.notw.co.uk/politics/2010/02/notwicm-poll-shows-union-members-demand-labour-divorce.html
"UNION members are sick of leaders pumping millions into the Labour party — and are demanding they sever ALL links with Gordon Brown.
A whopping 71 per cent believe a complete divorce from Labour is the only answer, according to a News of the World ICM poll today."
"ICM Research interviewed 4,090 people aged 18+ online on Jan 29 — Feb 7, 2010. Respondents were selected at random from the ICM NewVista panel and data has been weighted to a profile of all adults. Among those polled were 583 union members."
A GB poll - which may or not have significance in Scotland, but sounds like it may be important south of the border at least.
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312. cynicalHighlander
"A useful resource Edited Electoral Roll Consultation once a freedom is lost it will be hard to recover."
That's the version that businesses use isn't it? I already opt out.
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#225 - "I'm hoping that the price he pays is going down in history as the PM who oversaw the end of the union!"
For all Brown doesn't hide his hatred for the SNP, he doesn't openly criticise them on day to day issues, whereas Cameron does. This, as others have already said, shows the level of respect he holds for Scotland and I can guess what he means when he talks about "working with the Scottish government".
He talks about devolving decisions, bringing democracy to the local level, yet he'll be critical if you don't do things his way. He obviously has a scewed definition of devolution and it'll be hilarious to see him pandering to the nationalits if he needs their votes. Unfortunately, it'll be tragic if he doesn't.
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#334 mrbfaethedee
"clearly doesn't take much to wake the dead these days"
ROFL but getting late so goodnight all.
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345. ForteanJo
"He talks about devolving decisions, bringing democracy to the local level, yet he'll be critical if you don't do things his way. He obviously has a scewed definition of devolution and it'll be hilarious to see him pandering to the nationalits if he needs their votes. Unfortunately, it'll be tragic if he doesn't."
It will be rough days ahead if he doesn't. On the other hand, to be brutally frank, it also may be the wake up call that some Scots seem to desperately need about their true status in the union.
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343. oldnat
All the more interesting given that Cameron intends to stop the automatic funding of Labour by the unions.
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345. ForteanJo
"He talks about devolving decisions, bringing democracy to the local level, yet he'll be critical if you don't do things his way."
And if he's so keen on local referendums, why not tell Goldie to offer Tory support for a referendum bill in Scotland?
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344. mrbfaethedee
"That's the version that businesses use isn't it?"
Not as far as I know I just just use it on a personal basis to look for specific individuals.
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348. mrbfaethedee
"Cameron intends to stop the automatic funding of Labour by the unions."
Though, in the usual way of doing things, I doubt that this will happen before the 2011 Scottish election is over. Cameron would much rather have a fellow Unionist as FM.
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347. JRMacClure
"to be brutally frank, it also may be the wake up call that some Scots seem to desperately need about their true status in the union."
Well said!
'ehm aff!
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Interesting article:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/14/kevin-mckenna-nicola-sturgeon
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‘Rebellious Scots’ will remain crushed in God Save the Queen.
Lord Goldsmith, the former attorney general who led Gordon Brown’s review of British citizenship, had suggested that a verse calling for “rebellious Scots” to be crushed ought to be rewritten.
His remarks provoked speculation that the little-known stanza in God Save the Queen, written during the Jacobite uprising of 1745, was likely to be altered or officially disowned.
However, Labour has now confirmed there is no prospect of the National Anthem being changed, insisting it was a source of pride for people across the UK.
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It looks like those NuLabour Muppets are at it again:
SNP is accused of taking ‘cash for access’
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“Lord grant that Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring. May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, God Save the King.”
Yes, people all across the UK just LOVE that verse, especially in Scotland. *rolls eyes*
I suspect, however, that many unionists still share the sentiment.
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This is a pretty good discussion of what is going on in the Scottish press. It seems to me that anyone who is concerned about Scotland, whatever their political affiliation, has reason to be concerned.
Unfortunately, many who should know better and who should most value journalistic independence (now apparently lost) are too short-sighted to see it.
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'Mr Salmond will not be entering Downing Street.'
So what, who cares. Salmond has never had that ambition. This is Scotland, the resident of No 10 will never prioritise Scotland's interests. There is an unhealthy fixation with London rule that is slowly choking our country. Just say 'No Thank, we will do our own thing Dave, you worry about England, that's what tories are for after all.'
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It looks like we are about to be overtaxed again.
New tax bombshell: 20% VAT
I assume that this tax bombshell is to cover the amount of monies that have been paid out to the failing banks. The question that I am interested in, if, when the banks are running in surplus, will the UK government claim back OUR investments in those banks and refund us this extra hike in our taxes? I suspect not. As usual we will get stuffed right, left and centre while those at the top of the banking industry will still be enjoying their bonuses, at our expense, while we suffer at the bottom through higher bank charges and higher taxes.
I still haven't been able to find out any information from any government department if we taxpayers will get that money back from the bankers. We get stuffed by having to pay increase taxes to pay for the banks' follies and the get double stuffed by having to pay the extra bank charges to bring the banks up to a more competative level while the UK government are not telling us if this bank bailout money is going to be refunded to us.
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359. gedguy2
Tsk! Such an uncharitable attitude, gedguy.
Bank Aid
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354. Roll_On_2010
"
‘Rebellious Scots’ will remain crushed in God Save the Queen."
Yet another token of the "respect" that Dim Dave was talking about.
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#339 oldnat...
'Quote him accurately! - "Our precious union".'
Who does he think he is with this 'precious' ....is he Golum ? Throw the union into the fires of Mount Doom !
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353. cassidy
"Interesting article:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/14/kevin-mckenna-nicola-sturgeon"
Good piece from Kevin McKenna. Despite the attempt to invent a new word. I don't see "unequivocably" finding a place in the dictionary any time soon.
But I have to disagree with McKenna in regard to Wendy Alexander. She was not a victim of the contrived outrage which characterises the "opposition" at Holyrood. Her downfall was a consequence of her incompetence as a leader.
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#336 mrbfaethedee
"I'm hoping that the price he pays is going down in history as the PM who oversaw the end of the union!"
If his speech on Friday represents his own beliefs rather than a speech-writer having an off-day, then he is certainly working towards your goal!
In July 2008 on these threads, I thought he might be sensible enough to realise that probability and avoid going down in History as the last Prime Minister of the UK and the first of England by offering a fair, federal solution. The latest evidence certainly suggests I was wrong.
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#302 scarymannie
Very hypothetical. Unions don't really work like that, and far from everyone in NHS Unison (which is probably the union in question) is an avid supporter of the Labour party, open to bribery.
I don't hold any brief at all for Unison's union bureaucrats and bosses, (google "Yunus Bakhsh" for one good reason why not to trust them, not that I think you need it!) but I don't think the rank and file are falling over backwards to defend Jack McConnell. Also in this case they'd need to be psychic and able to read newspaper headlines of the future.
There are very good comrades in NHS Unison as there are in all the unions...being a member of a Labour donating union doesn't make you a Labour party robot.
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#348 mrb
Hmmm! Interesting development.
He doesn't say "stop" but require them to tick a box once every year instead of once every 10 years. Personally am all in favour of unions stopping supporting the disastrous nulab project...how much longer can comrades continue paying for getting nothing but spit in the face from Labour? There's a growing feeling amongst the rank and file that they don't want to pay to be insulted any more. But that should be *their* decision, not Eton boy's.
My union is not affiliated to any political party and that's how I like it :) Being affiliated isn't what it was a hundred years ago or even fifty years ago. It's now a millstone around the neck (or do I mean an albatross? I get them confused) and it creates an ossified union bureaucracy, which is dangerous to real union democracy. Unison etc should drop the affiliation IMO, but they should get to choose to do that or not do that. We don't need any more trade union laws and as Dave Chappel recently said, should be prepared to fight the ones we have had imposed on us already.
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Shereen's guests have spoken and we can all relax.
There is no need for Nicola Sturgeon to resign - phew.
Well, not yet anyway according to David Torrance. Nicola should apparently wait until the Scottish media have stopped searching for any connection between Rauf and the SNP says Torrance.
What of Labour?
Well, we are told that they are always calling for resignations over 'mistakes' and this was just a mistake by Sturgeon. No attempt at explaining why it is a mistake nor anyone even suggesting that it wasn't - it is simply taken as read that it was a mistake, so there.
No mention of Labour hypocrisy either over these resignation calls, although a brief acknowledgement that Gordon Brown once sent a similar letter on behalf of a constituent - we aren't told if that was a mistake.
Salmond is also criticised - so no change then.
The piece on Gordon Brown at the end was surprising for the fact that one guest actually had the temerity to criticise Brown's decision to allow the death of his child to feature in a TV interview tonight on ITV.
Shereen is aghast at the suggestion that Brown is using this tragic event as an electioneering tool and tells us how moved she was at Brown's yet to be broadcast interview.
The Shereen show - BBC Scotland's response to accusations of overspending.
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#340 Electric Hermit
"Or could it be that he is genuinely oblivious to the offence he causes?"
I do suspect it's more that. Remember that the teaching of "British" history is as profoundly awful in England as it is in the rest of GB, but with the difference that it is not resented. Cameron is no intellectual or academic and may never have thought about the constitutional instability introduced by New Labour before winning the leadership of his party. But he's a smart enough political operator to realise that to "win" the UK general election he must attract voters in the English marginals while doing nothing to unsettle the Tory shires.
In that respect, Scotland is effectively irrelevant to his reaching his ambition, apart perhaps from a few forays which should be entirely directed to minimising the number of Labour MPs returned. Once in power, the realisation of what offence he has given may start to dawm. At that point he may just start damage limitation measures, but a lot of damage will already have been done.
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365. fourstrikes
I hear what you are saying and concur with most of it. I think the point he was trying to make is that perhaps the witness(es) were in a position to be manipulated (is that too strong a word?) by Unison reps. I doubt we will ever know.
Of course there are good comrades in the unions. I happen to think most of them have already left the Labour Party for the SNP, SSP and Solidarity. And of course there are those who _genuinely_ regard themselves as "internationalists". We just need to convince them they can't get to where they want to be from their present position. It took me far too long to realise that "The British Road to Socialism" was not just a rocky cul-de-sac but an ambush in a defile.
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366. fourstrikes
"It's now a millstone around the neck (or do I mean an albatross? I get them confused)"
Millstones are the ones that can't fly.
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I'm a bit confused about the whole Lettergate thing anyway.
It's *not* incumbent on an MSP to write a letter asking for clemency in an offender's case. You can bet if Mr Rauf was a paedo, Ms Sturgeon would be a million miles away with her fingers in her ears saying "Na na na na, can't hear yooooou" So Iain Gray wasn't wrong in saying that he personally wouldn't have written the letter, and that doesn't mean he generally gives bad service to his constituents or doesn't help them. After all, MSPs don't write such letters for every one of their constituents who goes up before the courts, or even every one who asks. It's a judgement call.
However, she obviously wrote the letter in her capacity as a constituency MSP, *not* as DFM. She completely has the right to do that if she believes the case to be a deserving one, and that is no reflection on how she performs her duties as DFM/Cab Sec. I can't see where she did anything wrong apart from it not being the best decision in the world when it comes to how it will sound in the media. Once she was asked to resign, SpAds do come into play, because the relationship between being a constituency MSP and a member of the Cabinet is complex.
In short...everybody's innocent except Mr Rauf. Lunchgate was more of a complicated issue than this one!
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#371 ElectricHermit
It depends how hard you throw them ;)
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Who the heck is Shereen?
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229. brigadierjohn
OK let's try again, perhaps the mods felt I was indulging in geriatric abuse.
"#159 Teenie: No I did not know what she was on about.
You expect us to believe that your alleged 30+ years in the newspaper business did not equip you with the breadth of knowledge to understand "blackface"? I'm smelling something here and its not the dozen Valentines day roses my lover just gave me.
And yes, I did think it was a bit of banter. Nope, definitely not the roses...
I mistakenly thought you had a sense of humour.
As it happens I do, but I'm not prepared to laugh with a condescending old man who wishes to do my people and my nation down. Laugh at, no problem at all. And we will have the last laugh.
As for "maturity", in your case I'd call it decrepitude. Did you spot the average age of the attendees at the Davefest in Perth? Actuarial realities, old boy.... All we have to do is wait.
As Mike Scott of the Waterboys put it "Old England is dying.."
The past was yours, the future is ours. But I hope you are still around for that ceremony in Edinburgh.
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#370 Teenie
They might well have been, but that would be a very unusual occurence, whereas it seemed Scarymannie was trying to make out it was a matter of course ;) I think it was highly unlikely to happen in this case because not only is this not generally how unions (even Unison) operate, there just wasn't enough in it. It may theoretically happen on a far higher level, but a case like that, naw.
Your second point is an excellent one. I deliberately don't reveal my affiliation on here but it's not too hard to guess I'm neither Labour nor SNP ;) The people who stay on in the Labour Party, I just don't understand what's in it for them. It seems they've even stopped believing the party can be turned around (which was crazy, but one can see how their faith would lead them there) and are just content to sell their papers and relax into old modes of thought where the Labour Party is the voice of the working class and all they need to do is wait. That's far more of a sellout than people who were never socialists to begin with!
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373. fourstrikes
"It depends how hard you throw them ;)"
Championing the aerodynamic qualities of a millstone may be one of the few tasks more thankless than being Iain Gray's press agent.
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#365 fourstrikes
Sorry my attitude towards unions is a bit tainted id have to say. Of course not everybody in a union would vote Labour and probably some of them are agreeing with Camerons plans to change it from 10 years to 1 the option for your money not to go to a political party. Do the unions give money to the SNP for example ? Just curious.
I see the fire service has just had a big cash injection from our SNP led government. Maybe the Fire Services unions will think hard about where their money goes in future.
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#377 Electric Hermit
I dunno. Dead albatrosses probably don't go that far either.
It's all relative! (And some days, advocating the impossible is fun.)
;)
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#368 online ed. didn't hear shereen this morning is she still looking for the silent majority??
Is Mr Baker still in a job as a spokesperson after admitting on Brian's "big debate" that this and every other call for resignation is simply in revenge for wee Wendy having to resign and not actually about the letter?
has any of the MSM dared to say anything about Mr McConnell's intervention on court proceedings whilst he was FM ?
the fact that the best the Sunday Mail can come up with was an apology from the fraudster speaks volumes.
Sid
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My My My; Good morning my victimised paranoid Nats! You have been busy wallowing in self pity through the night and even early this morning espousing woe of 'your' Scotland. Even JRM (obviously looking to feel victimised for us poor Scots) at 06:38 goggles up a verse of victimisation written hundreds of years ago- or did you know by heart?
When I look at this blog and the constant victimhood prose that is written I don't even want to consider what is a legitimate nationalist point of view from economic sense. Old Nat; Hardly a Tory nor entrench myself in the camp of any particular party but willing to criticise what I see as bad judgement (with a couple of other Nats on this blog).
Hay at 323; "Cameron made an enemy today". Steady on! Find a dark room, stick the SNP 'Alternative History of nationalist revisionist Scotland' on the box (you'll probably have it next to your Life of Brian DVD); scream "Freedom". Hell, maybe JRM can do it with you in a fake American Scots accent - it will be good therapy.
Be honest - you already despised him for what you think he represents - Tory, Etonian, an evil English Lord and Hate Advocator of Scotland, Silver spoon in his mouth, never worked a hard day in his life but got all the breaks, not socialist, yada yada. Console yourself though you will be at home with the core SNP contingent on this blog.
Have a good Sunday guys and girls.
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372. fourstrikes
"It's *not* incumbent on an MSP to write a letter asking for clemency in an offender's case."
This is not as clear-cut as you suggest. The Code of Conduct for MSPs 8.1 Dealing with individual constituents’ cases states,
It is expected that each member will take on a case when approached although it is recognised that there may be legitimate reasons for a member to decline a constituent’s case in certain circumstances...
In other words, the default position is that assistance shall be given unless there is some compelling reason to refuse such assistance. This is surely as close to an "obligation" as is possible short of an explicit legal requirement.
The onus is on those who insist that assistance should have been refused to show that there were grounds for such refusal which would be acceptable in terms of the code of conduct. This they have signally failed to do.
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#378 scarymannie
Affiliation usually only goes to one place...Labour ;) (It was the Liberals, back in the day.) The RMT in Scotland shifted their affiliation to the SSP for a while, if I remember rightly.
It wouldn't be a good idea for a union to affiliate to any party, IMO. Not Labour, not the SNP and not even the SSP (who are socialists even though there are issues there.) It restricts movement too much and it creates a bureaucracy. It's similar to the parliamentary road approach in its ill effects.
Have you had a bad experience with being in a union, or do you distrust the concept?
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#376 fourstrikes
No teenie is right, i didnt mean to imply that unions tell their members what to do. It was more a case of on a local level i.e this hospital that possibly they might have been dissuaded. Mind you it could just have been that they were too lazy to attend court. Like teenie says we will never know.
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382. amicusalba
A remarkably warped and bitter perspective.
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# 383 Electric Hermit
I think "twice convicted benefit fraudster" would count as a reason to refuse such assistance. Otherwise, where does it stop? There's no hierarchy of crimes listed in the Code where one may or may not step in. It's a judgement call for the MSP in question, which Ms Sturgeon has answered according to her own lights.
I merely suggest that "twice convicted paedophile" wouldn't have got such a letter and it's not the case that those who object to what she did have to prove from the Code that they wouldn't have done the same thing. The Code leaves it up to individual MSPs to answer or not answer a call for assistance along these lines. If Ms Sturgeon had chosen not to write the letter, that would have been fine...presumably her "compelling case" would be "I choose not to write a letter for a constituent who has been convicted twice of fraud which harms the more vulnerable members of our community" and that would have been perfectly acceptable. She has actually decided that although this man committed fraud there are mitigating factors and therefore she wrote a letter detailing these. That's also completely acceptable under the Code.
She's well within the Code to do what she did and it was really up to her. Iain Gray et al who would have taken a different decision, likewise. It's a total non issue IMO from a procedural point of view.
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#386 - "A remarkably warped and bitter perspective."
From a Unionist? Surely you jest.
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382. amicusalba
"When I look at this blog and the constant victimhood prose that is written I don't even want to consider what is a legitimate nationalist point of view from economic sense."
The vacuous argument of a committed cringeling. The argument that we should accept the the slights and slanders of obsessive unionism without comment or complaint. An argument which carries all the weight that one might expect. None at all!
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#384 Possibly its because all the companies i have worked for have never had much union members in them. Indeed the company i now work for respects its workers so much that when we were faced with not getting our payrise last year we all decided that it was better to have a job and forfeit the extra money than to kick up a stink and possibly be unemployed. As it is the man at the top is on our side and treats us with some respect so we dont need to play hardball ...btw this is not a small company but one employing a couple of thousand. I personally wouldn't join a union specifically for the point that union fees go to the Labour party being that i have been SNP most of my life.
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#385 scarymannie
Indeed. They might just have had courtphobia ;) which does affect many of our citizens, but we'll never know.
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And "kered" is here...nice!
I'm enjoying my return to Mr Taylor's blog. It's like a nice warm bath except I don't normally have Nats in my bath and should stop this metaphor right here before I do any more damage.
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#382 amicusalba
"you already despised him for what you think he represents - Tory, Etonian, an evil English Lord and Hate Advocator of Scotland, Silver spoon in his mouth, never worked a hard day in his life but got all the breaks, not socialist"
What's the problem with despising him for that? :)
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#387 "I merely suggest that "twice convicted paedophile" wouldn't have got such a letter and it's not the case that those who object to what she did have to prove from the Code that they wouldn't have done the same thing. "
Just on what planet do you suggest Rauf would be a danger to the public? On what planet do parents warn their children "Go to sleep or Rauf will steal your housing benefit!"?
Comparing Rauf and his crimes to that of pedophilia is sick and deliberately provocative. They are not even in the same league and point more to your own deficiences than those of Sturgeon or any of her followers.
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#390 scarymannie
Not all unions pay Labour Party dues...it's possible (not knowing where you work) that you wouldn't be asked to. My union doesn't!
Also, it's completely legit to notify your union you won't be paying those dues. Nothing can be done against you if you're a Nat who doesn't want to pay for a party you oppose. Just let the union office know.
But how is taking a pay cut in a recession a sign of how well you are respected? You, as a worker, agreed to take less money to make life easier for the boss because you personally respect him so much...how much does he respect you, then?
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382. amicusalba
"My My My; Good morning my victimised paranoid Nats! You have been busy wallowing in self pity through the night and even early this morning espousing woe of 'your' Scotland.
Even JRM (obviously looking to feel victimised for us poor Scots) at 06:38 goggles up a verse of victimisation written hundreds of years ago- or did you know by heart?
No need to google, the verse is well known - If it doesn't matter or is no longer relevant, why not say so clearly and announce the New Approved version of "God Save the [King|Queen]"? Otherwise, it's still an insult to an entire nation and accurately reflects our position in this "Union". So I'll continue to boo and whistle every time I hear the tune.
Hay at 323; "Cameron made an enemy today". Steady on! Find a dark room, stick the SNP 'Alternative History of nationalist revisionist Scotland' on the box (you'll probably have it next to your Life of Brian DVD); scream "Freedom". Hell, maybe JRM can do it with you in a fake American Scots accent - it will be good therapy. Condescending mince but you probably feel better for spouting it. Good, it will counter your depression.
Be honest - you already despised him for what you think he represents - Tory, Etonian, an evil English Lord and Hate Advocator of Scotland, Silver spoon in his mouth, never worked a hard day in his life but got all the breaks, not socialist, yada yada.
Got it in one, there's no stopping you today, is there? Exactly right and exactly why he is the kind of foreign influence we don't need running _our_ country.
Have a good Sunday guys and girls." Oh _I_ will, I got a dozen red roses and Im looking forward to the rest of a romantic day with someone special. I'm looking forward to the future too whereas you unionists have only the past to reflect on.
Try not to get too depressed about it.
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387. fourstrikes
"I think "twice convicted benefit fraudster" would count as a reason to refuse such assistance."
In terms of your personal prejudices, perhaps. But not in terms of the code. This individuals past crimes in no way disqualifies him from receiving the assistance of his elected representative. It most certainly does not disqualify his family, who committed no offence. At most, Mr Rauf's record might be expected to influence the form which such assistance would take. Reading Nicola Sturgeon's letter it is plain to see that she was appropriately circumspect in her representations.
The simple fact of the matter is that there is no wrongdoing or misconduct here. Nor even any issue of "questionable judgement". There is nothing whatever in it at all. The fact that there is such a fuss being made has nothing to do with Sturgeon's conduct and everything to do with the sad desperation of a floundering "opposition" and the pathetic media which panders to their obsessive unionism.
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#387 fourstrikes
"I merely suggest that "twice convicted paedophile" wouldn't have got such a letter and it's not the case that those who object to what she did have to prove from the Code that they wouldn't have done the same thing."
You're right that they would almost certainly not have got a letter suggesting that the court might consider a non-custodial sentence, but that does not mean other points in mitigation would not have been raised, as would also be the case of someone convicted twice of violent crime. The safety of the community should always be a factor and we have no reason to suppose that this individual poses any threat there.
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One last word on Nicola - has no-one considered that the real job she was doing was on behalf of the wife and children? The wife and children, who are every bit as much constituents as Mr Rauf himself, who would be without a partner and father if (as seems inevitable now) he goes away for a long time. Personally I'd fine him to leave him on the edge of bankruptcy so the state gets some money back instead of him costing us even more money as a prisoner.
If ever there was a case where a custodial sentence was not appropriate, this is it. How many eager young ears will be listening to Mr Rauf's tales of how to fiddle the system big time as they while away the long days in pokey?
Still all this requires just a little bit of thinking and what's left of the Labour Party is not much good at that.
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#394 ForteanJo
I'm saying that Ms Sturgeon would judge different crimes by different lights, not that Mr Rauf is a paedophile. Also, I feel you're straying from the approved line which is "Any criminal gets a letter cause that's what you do for constituents." Think on.
Furthermore, have you ever lived on housing benefits? I have. Do you know what happens when they're withdrawn? You're homeless. I think that counts as a threat, personally.
I would also like to hope that no parent says to their child "Go to sleep, or the paedophiles will get you". But parenting styles are different, certainly.
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394. ForteanJo
"Comparing Rauf and his crimes to that of pedophilia is sick and deliberately provocative."
Or just plain silly.
In fact, there is no reason why an elected representative should not write a letter in support of a plea in mitigation on behalf of a "paedo" constituent. But it would surely be a very different letter from that which Sturgeon submitted on behalf of Mr Rauf. Paedophilia is a psychological disorder, not a criminal offence. Where there is a criminal case arising from this disorder, it would be perfectly proper for an elected representative, if so requested by the defence, to suggest to the court that some form of clinical intervention might be appropriate.
The fact that the constituent is a paedophile should no more disqualify them from receiving such support as their elected representative is able to give than their being a drug addict or a common thief - or a benefit fraudster.
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362. Scarymannie
"is he Golum ?"
Gollum! What a delightful image. I'll never be able to see him without thinking "Our Precious".
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#398 Electric Hermit
I don't mind being prejudiced against well off people who scr*w over the benefits system. Am I hopelessly oldfashioned? ;)
However I don't think we fundamentally disagree. Ms Sturgeon made a choice on behalf of her constituent and what I keep saying is that she made a judgement call and that was absolutely her decision and nothing bad should attach to her from that. She undoubtedly knows more about her constituent than we do, and she has committed no errors by the Code.
I'm never going to support the SNP uncritically. I don't belong to your tradition. As most people do, I will look at the record of the party in power and discuss that.
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#400 Teenie
A fair point there. But would you support this for benefit fraudsters who can't pay back what they took and have young children and no MSPs on their side?
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#399 Brownedov
Absolutely. Ms Sturgeon did nothing wrong in raising these issues for a constituent. What is dishonest is when people say that it's incumbent on an MSP to write a letter like hers for anyone. This is not what the Code says...on this point it leaves it up to individuals.
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#401 - "I'm saying that Ms Sturgeon would judge different crimes by different lights, not that Mr Rauf is a paedophile. Also, I feel you're straying from the approved line which is "Any criminal gets a letter cause that's what you do for constituents." Think on. "
No one is claiming there is a blanket policy to write letters on behalf of every and any criminal except for self serving and bitter unionists like the grayman. Every case should be based on its own merits and I trust Sturgeon would do so.
"Furthermore, have you ever lived on housing benefits? I have. Do you know what happens when they're withdrawn? You're homeless. I think that counts as a threat, personally."
So because Rauf committed benefit fraud, some defenceless wee lone parent is going to get her housing benefit stopped? More nonsense that reeks of desperation more than reasoned argument.
"I would also like to hope that no parent says to their child "Go to sleep, or the paedophiles will get you"."
Your words, not mine. I was alluding more to the infamous bogeyman of old, which in our MSM (and the minds of many who allow themselves to be lead by such gutter press) has been embodied by Mr Rauf.
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#400 - "has no-one considered that the real job she was doing was on behalf of the wife and children? The wife and children, who are every bit as much constituents as Mr Rauf himself, who would be without a partner and father if (as seems inevitable now) he goes away for a long time."
I have consistently said this from the start and believe this is the real motives behind Sturgeon's letter. Too many though, on here and elsewhere, believe the sins of the father line and think to consideration should be given to Rauf's family (I expect some would demand they should be locked up beside him, after all they benefited from his crime too!)
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404. fourstrikes
"I'm never going to support the SNP uncritically. I don't belong to your tradition."
But you are going to make wholly unwarranted assumptions about my my attitudes.
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Not that this article has anything to do with us, the Welsh or the Northern Irish
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7026252.ece
but it's always worth reminding people that "Britain" in Tory speak = England.
If you have any English friends/relatives, however, it's worth mentioning to them that the much vaunted Swedish model has increased social division, while also increasing public expenditure. The Tories will always support the former, even if it includes the latter.
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405. fourstrikes
Every case is different - that's why we (hopefully) have judges who look carefully at the circumstances in each case. Let's not beat about the bush here, this was planned criminal fraud on a grand scale, somewhat different from someone in a scheme trying to make life a bit more bearable for themselves by forgetting to declare a wee part-time job. I have NO sympathy for the guy, I do have some for his family. OTOH they presumably benefited as well ( I believe a £400k house in Polloksheilds could be quite pleasant) so it is only right that they are reduced to living _just_ above the level that they can claim any further(legitimate) benefits. Let the state reclaim what it can and financially cripple the guy so an example is made. As an aside - exactly what we should be doing to the bankers and other profiteers - But don't stick him in jail, that just costs _us_ money and he can tell others of how he got away with it for so long. It's already been proven in this case that imprisonment did NOT work.
So the short answer to your question is err, err maybe :-)
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378. At 10:49am on 14 Feb 2010, Scarymannie wrote:
Have you ever considered why - to my knowledge at least - exactly why the unions have not (yet) given money to the SNP?
But also consider why Soutar made his donation to the SNP and not Labour.
I don't like the implication however that the FBU should now donate to the SNP simply because they have had their funding increased. Political parties have to make money, but I don't like it when party interests are put ahead of the country. Swinney has made this decision based on the needs of the service. A good use of money that no one can criticise.
I see the Sturgeon argument is still smouldering. I think we can agree however it was her decision to make and people are entitled to their own opinions.
Anyone else get the feeling that Cameron is slowly dissolving the lead the Conservatives had over Labour? There's something just not right in his approach. Seems to be "overly concerned" about everything, and it is wearing thin.
Been reading on the economic problems with Greece. Is there a possibilty that the Euro might suffer on the markets? Could this be of benefit to Gordon Brown?
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The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow Uni
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#407 ForteanJo
So aren't we basically in agreement?
I think benefit fraud on a grand scale is very wrong. I can understand people taking jobs on the side to supplement the pitiful rates they get, but what Mr Rauf did was *extremely* wrong.
Ms Sturgeon, having reviewed the case of her constituent, did nothing wrong by the Code in writing the letter. That was her judgement call and she should not be punished for it.
I absolutely condemn Mr Rauf for what he did and I don't see the get out clause because some "wee lone parent" (isn't that contemptuous?) will not directly suffer. Rich people gaming the benefits system hurts everybody.
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Having just watched Thursday night's interview of Cameron by his glencambliness on the Politics Show, I remain astonished at BBC Scotlandshire's inability to ask blindingly obvious questions. Not a single question on whether Cameron's Calmanesque white paper would be put to the Scottish people in a referendum. Arguably, Campbell was a little less credulous than he would have been with a UK government minister but overall a toadying performance well down to standard.
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# 409 Electric Hermit
I don't know you. All I can judge of you is by what you say.
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#382 Amicusalba
I can't see how you could have gotten any more in that little tirade wrong than was possible.
Perhaps the truth is that you’re not a terribly nice person, who neither has the insight nor intellect to discern my background, heritage or even my political allegiance.
1. I am not a socialist. Even if David Cameron were a socialist and conducted himself in the same fashion he has, I would still hate him for the lying hypocrite he is.
2. I don't hate English people; I have many friends and family who are English. As far as I'm aware Mr Cameron enjoys Scottish hospitality on the Isle of Jura every other weekend - it's you who's mis-representing the facts by calling him a, what was it again...
"English Lord and Hate Advocator of Scotland" that was it, how very droll - he doesn't even have a peerage, such a schoolboy error.
3. I didn't have a bad word to say about Cameron until he got involved in a political spat, which was both out of his control and out of his remit - The Al-megrahi affair. Cameron had previously pledged to "work with and respect" the Scottish government. I didn't see much of that 'respect' when he was chewing off the sound bites about a devolved quasi-judicial decision by the Scottish Justice Secretary.
4. David Cameron repeated his claim on Saturday at the Tory party Conference to want to "work with" the Scottish Parliament and foster "mutual respect" between the two administrations.
5. No sooner has he said that - he joins in with a media circus revolving around a matter that has nothing to do with his position as leader of the opposition, Tory party or even his house of parliament.
The man is lying, opportunist scum. What he says and what he does are two different things entirely. That is NOT behaviour conducive to a healthy working relationship between administrations and it sure as hell isn't a great guarantee of how he'll conduct himself in the future should he ascend to the post of Prime Minister.
Take your feeble, flailing attacks and mealy mouthed rhetoric somewhere where they make at least a modicum of sense and don't offend the intellect of those who can see idiocy for what it is.
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good old Cameron the conservative unionist party which he leads must be
well chuffed he is consorting with those who seek to end the union
cameron doesn't know if he is a tory or not, he is still not sure if being seen to be tory plays well with the electorate this week!
the over blown pr man does not know if he is coming or going
a very dessparate atemmpt to get nationalist scots votes are they so gullible?don't see why this post should be removed
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#411 Teenie
My oldfashioned Leninist attitude says something different. But I liked the way you put it and you're right that at the moment prisons are like universities of crime.
What can be done about this, I wonder?
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#409 Electric Hermit &
#404 fourstrikes
"I'm never going to support the SNP uncritically."
And if I ever support anyone or anything uncritically it will be a sign that Alzheimer's is setting in and time for handing in of the dinner pail.
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411. Teenie_frae_Twechar:
What happens if he commits fraud for a third time? And if he is fined to the point of having little money left, he might be tempted to do it again.
There are criminals for whom prison does nothing. But other alternatives fail to work as well.
Perhaps we should have a "three strikes and out" policy for serious crimes. Might increase the prison population, and costs. But it also reduces the costs for the manpower to invstigate such crimes and the associated costs with prosecuting the case.
Maybe in this particular case the defendant should be heavily fined, and have the full costs awarded against him.
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There is pretty much no distinction between the Unionist media in Scotland and the Labour party - it is difficult to see where one ends and the other begins.
The arguments with posters on here regarding this latest contrived smear is futile, such stories were expected and there will be more. Behaviour that previously saw no such 'interest' on the part of the media will now be presented as suspect if an SNP politician is involved.
That actions that are neither illegal, against the rules nor even unique are suddenly deemed inappropriate by our media is all the evidence one needs in order to pass judgement on that same media.
The BBC have just allowed David Cameron to make what I believe to be an actionable statement regarding the contents of the letter Nicola Sturgeon presented to the judge.
On The Politics Show Cameron stated quite clearly that Sturgeon had "advised" the judge on sentencing. Nicola Sturgeon's letter did no such thing, it merely asked that the judge consider a non custodial sentence.
Glenn Campbell ignored the false claim and also used the now familiar tactic of presenting a newspaper headline before presenting a Unionist guest with a platform in order to attack the SNP.
Campbell also used the word 'intervention' to describe Nicola Sturgeons letter to the judge. The word intervene conjurs up an image of someone intruding into a process, someone seeking to disturb or hinder a process in much the same manner as the police might intervene in a disturbance or a football referee might intervene in order to prevent a fracass.
Nicola Sturgeon did not make an intervention, she did though involve herself in the process - not hindering it but adding to it by providing information to the judge that he may not have been privy to whilst asking him to consider a non curtodial sentence.
I'm not a legal expert, but I'm sure that had Nicola Strgeon sought to advise the judge in this matter then it may have been unlawful.
If this is the case then David Cameron has just falsely stated that Nicola Sturgeon has committed a criminal offence.
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363. Electric Hermit
Good piece from Kevin McKenna. Despite the attempt to invent a new word. I don't see "unequivocably" finding a place in the dictionary any time soon.
It's already in the dictionary and has been for quite a while. The Oxford English Dictionary cites its first use in 1917. You need a better dictionary.
1917 W. J. Locke Red Planet xix. 234, I knew that for his own sake he would have unequivocably declined.
I agree that the article was remarkably even-handed considering it was in the Guardian. Normally the Guardian is unable to distinguish between the SNP and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. But I also thought McKenna was being disingenuous by trying to equate "Nicolagate" with "Wendygate". Wendy Alexander was accused of breaking rules in order to benefit herself, and then trying to cover it up. Nicola Sturgeon hasn't broken any rules, didn't benefit herself, and hasn't tried to cover anything up.
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a prMAN AS PM(TOO MUCH LIKE BLAIRbut with a wallpaper magnate's heir as chancellor only true blue tories could see them as in any wayworthwhile
have tory voters learned nothing from Blair, who in all but iminimum wages and public services expenditure was a tory people didn't like his image or manner fter a relatively short timenow they seem to want another englishman with a scottish name who is so very similar other than DC'Seinevitable right wing cuts agend awhether or not he admits it
too much airbrushing is quickly washed away it is amazing so many are taken in memories of the 80s and no change in real tory values will not be forgotten by the millions who experienced them
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416. fourstrikes
"I don't know you. All I can judge of you is by what you say."
So I defend one MSP against wholly unwarranted attacks and you make the gazelle-like leap from that to uncritical support for the SNP. Very silly!
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Happy Valentine's Day to you all.
I guess when your average voter goes into a newsagent and sees all the rags on display having a go at the Scottish Government it would make an impact.
But what kind of impact? I certainly associate the likes of the Mail, Express, Times etc with the Torys, or at the least, with a South East of England readership. So I regard their headlines as a kind of litmus test for the Scottish Government; it's obviously doing well. The Scotsman and Herald are in circulation freefall, so can be dismissed. Record readers, in my experience are more interested in sport, hence their decision to buy it.
Now applying a little psychology to your everyday Scot, they are probably proud of having a Government in Holyrood, and will react in a particular fashion to these visible attacks. Although the various newspapers have an anti SNP agenda, I'll bet that their antics will be having quite the opposite effect, they may not bring voters into the SNP fold, but they will generate a feeling of increased pride in the Scottish Government and Scotland in general. That can only be a good thing. So in the words of someone dear to us all; "Bring it on!"
The icing on the cake is when Cameron starts to have a go. These unionists; what absolute fools they are.
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#395 fourstrikes
'But how is taking a pay cut in a recession a sign of how well you are respected? You, as a worker, agreed to take less money to make life easier for the boss because you personally respect him so much...how much does he respect you, then?'
Sorry your right, that is a silly statement i made. There is a lot of team spirit where i work tho and when you get your director coming and telling you the company plans personally it gives you a bit of faith.
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#414 - "So aren't we basically in agreement?"
After reading some of your other posts, I'd have to say to an extent we are.
"I think benefit fraud on a grand scale is very wrong. I can understand people taking jobs on the side to supplement the pitiful rates they get, but what Mr Rauf did was *extremely* wrong. "
Yes it is. There is no defending Mr Rauf but then Sturgeon was not trying to so. I would go further to say that benefit fraud on any scale is wrong but this government has fostered an attitude in our benefit delivery agencies where a benefit pay out is not wrong if you don't know it's wrong. This has been done on the premise that you can safe money on training, processes and manpower but means we will never know exactly how much benefit is paid out erroneously. That, however, is another argument that has little to do with Mr Rauf.
"Ms Sturgeon, having reviewed the case of her constituent, did nothing wrong by the Code in writing the letter. That was her judgement call and she should not be punished for it."
You won't find me in disagreement with that. It does come down to a judgement call despite attempts by some to muddy the waters by alluding to connections between the SNP and Scotland's Asian community.
"I don't see the get out clause because some "wee lone parent" (isn't that contemptuous?) will not directly suffer. Rich people gaming the benefits system hurts everybody. "
True but benefit fraud by the less well-off does not have a corresponding lesser effect. The point I was making though is does Mr Rauf really represent a danger to the community? Perhaps on an intellectual level, perhaps on some obscure, indirect level. The idea he will serve as a poster boy to justify cuts in benefit levels (there are already plenty of other "justifications" both Nulab and the tories are citing for their future plans to do exactly that) doesn't really fly.
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423. InfrequentAllele2
"You need a better dictionary."
You need a current dictionary.
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#412 Enneffess
'I don't like the implication however that the FBU should now donate to the SNP simply because they have had their funding increased'
Well i would like it not to be the case anyway but surely party funding has to be looked at. As fourstrike pointed out Labour are hardly the party of the working classes anymore so why are unions still giving them money ? The whole 'Lunchgate' saga is a load of nonsense in that I even know of all the sponsorship of government and parties from reading Private Eye. All these scandals of the last two weeks have only brought the subject into the public domain. If the SNP cant do it then neither will the other parties able to... maybe something that was planned all along !
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429. Electric Hermit
My dictionary is current, it's the latest edition. I only gave you the first citation, not the most recent. The word is still being used. Though I can unequivocably state it's not being used by you.
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#421 - "What happens if he commits fraud for a third time? And if he is fined to the point of having little money left, he might be tempted to do it again."
There are plenty of examples of judges not passing down custodial sentences in these kind of cases:
http://benefitfraud.blogspot.com/2009/12/suspended-sentence-for-10k-benefit.html
But it should be kept in mind that Rauf, by all accounts, didn't committed his crime out of necessity.
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Briefly glanced at the newspaper headlines in the local supermarket. The Scottish (now there’s a misnomer) Daily Express headline has an ‘exclusive’ on Nicola Sturgeon. She allegedly used a ministerial car to travel to the ‘lunchgate’ auction. This makes the headlines??? This beggars belief. Purely parish pump politics.
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#427 Scarymannie
Dont get so emotional because your Director wants to burden you with bad news.
"Good team spirit" my @rse! it's the most devisive management scheme ever to grace the good ground of collective bargaining.
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393. fourstrikes
It was hard for me to ignore the irony of that statement when writing it!!
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Cameron's carefully constructed interpretation of Sturgeon's letter was that she was 'telling' the the sheriff what decision to make and just demonstrates that Cameron is not the straight guy he is trying to protray. For Campbell not to question him on this point was another attempt to allow the facts be distorted, a technique for which BBC Scotland is has now become quite notorious.
Campbell is a master of the dishonest interview.
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As an overseas Scot I generally get my information on Scottish news online through online newspapers and BBC Radio Scotland. Listening as I do weekly to Brian's Big Debate, what I hear from the audiences seems to be very much at odds with what I read in the papers and what the polls say. I doubt very much if Brian is packing his audience with SNP supporters but what I hear are audiences that appear to be much more in tune with SNP's vision for Scotland than that of the Unionist parties!
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366. fourstrikes
"Personally am all in favour of unions stopping supporting the disastrous nulab project...how much longer can comrades continue paying for getting nothing but spit in the face from Labour? There's a growing feeling amongst the rank and file that they don't want to pay to be insulted any more. But that should be *their* decision, not Eton boy's."
Sorry about the time taken to respond, busy today.
Since you were good enough to respond to my comment I just wanted to respond that the snippet of your post quoted above roughly sums up my view too; that Labour and the unions should be untied (not that it's a matter for Cameron). Not that i'm part of a union, and not that i don't think the union movement has as many problems as Labour.
It does present serious problems for Labour though. Cameron gets to hack away at their funding base while the tories suck away happily at the teat of untouchables like Ashcroft!
Labour have left their traditions and principles to history (they can't just be gotten back), and they can't really compete with the tories for tory style funding; they've being acting the tory role for a few administrations now, but the tories are back on top as the conservatives of choice.
If they lose the GE, Labour are in for a tough decade - karma's a bitch!
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436. hamish42
"Cameron's carefully constructed interpretation of Sturgeon's letter was that she was 'telling' the the sheriff what decision to make and just demonstrates that Cameron is not the straight guy he is trying to protray. For Campbell not to question him on this point was another attempt to allow the facts be distorted, a technique for which BBC Scotland is has now become quite notorious.
Campbell is a master of the dishonest interview."
Sounds like business as usual!
Can't stop now, but in case you're interested you can download the bbc editiorial guidelines here, links are at the bottom of the page.
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#436 hamish42
"Cameron is not the straight guy he is trying to protray."
Quite so. Subrosa has a good post on that topic.
"Campbell is a master of the dishonest interview."
Quite so. Pretty glencambly in fact.
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For what it is worth I have just sent this comment to the Herald on Sunday after seeing their annoying article which trys to defend the Herald against criticising the SNP government unfairly:
"No matter how you spin and try to cleanse yourself in the eyes of the public, you are activating against the SNP.
You complain about what Nationalists say on blogs, but you yourselves don't provide any forums for comments on articles in your newspaper. Don't you think that is more than a bit hypocritical? What are you about? It is well reported that you are struggling for sales and if you continue to spin against the SNP government the public will see through you and I for one will be happy to see your paper going down the tubes in spite of the job losses and the loss of a Scottish national broadsheet. You are doing Scotland an injustice dancing to the tune of the owners who have no interest in the welfare of Scotland. Why did you need to justify your intentions in at least two editorials if you are not getting worried about what the general public think?
Alf Young has been one of the main protagonists against the SNP and he is still doing it when he is invited onto the BBC to comment on political affairs.
On this latest hyping of the Sturgeon letter you could improve your image by reporting on a similar incident when Jack McConnell was first minister. We do not want to lose Sturgeon as health minister as she has been one of the best and is making great improvements to the NHS. Does your newspaper really want to see her go?"
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So Dave promises a new relationship between London & Edinburgh - then wades in to the Sturgeon letter debate.
None of your business Dave - a domestic issue for Scottish politics. You worry about England - we already have a capable Government here.
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Interesting that my comment at 422 is referred to the mods - by whom?
My comment pointed out that David cameron stated that Nicola Sturgeon has "advised" the judge in the Rauf case.
This is completely untrue, a lie, false, made up - call it what you will, yet is broadcast by the BBC. Asking the judge to consider an alternative to a custofial sentence is not advising, there is no excuse for this mistake to be broadcast as the interview was recorded.
I also point out that Glenn Campbell has yet again been allowed to present a newspaper headline to camera and offer a unionist interviewee a free platform in order to attack the SNP.
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443. Online Ed
"This is completely untrue, a lie, false, made up - call it what you will"
This is really not surprising. We have Gollum's own words on this -
"We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses. Wicked, tricksy, false!"
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#443
Does anyone have an idea what the viewing figures are for Campbell's shows?
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What's to like about The Herald? Ian Bell!
Time to snitch on the real cheats
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I just noticed that the Sunday Herald have recycled their daily sister's apologia with only the publication date and and the identity of "we" changed. See their No apology for holding government to account replete with references to “lunchgate” and “benefitgate”. But still unsurprisingly free of references to "marqueegate", "drug-dealergate" or "hospitalthuggerygate". Close to pure desperation, it seems.
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SPT boss Alistair Watson quits over expenses
It is understood Watson was under mounting pressure to justify SPT’s use of public money and to explain apparent discrepancies in hospitality he registered as a Labour councillor.
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#441 hamish42
Well said. I should have refreshed this page before posting my #447
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#446 albamac
"What's to like about The Herald? Ian Bell!"
Many thanks for the link to Bell's apolitical, bravura performance as he clinically demolishes the Skeletor. I confess I gave up trying to find anything in that journal today after looking at the heavily featured editorial apologia.
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"MPs bid to block bill documents"
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jqn7oJhBic-f9QDdHGFGYMERFA3A
"Hundreds of MPs are liable for large tabs in Parliament's restaurants, many running to thousands of pounds. Total debts to the publicly-funded Commons catering department stood at £138,046 last summer."
Lunchgate, breakfastgate, dinnergate, odd_snackgate, lots_of_booze_gate.
They could just have paid their damned bills!
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451. oldnat
"They could just have paid their damned bills!"
On expenses no doubt.
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It's no surprise that the main Politics Show Scotland page should feature Campbell's interview with Cameron pledge on Holyrood powers, but perhaps more surprising that whoever does the page editing had the nous to link it with Forsyth: Calman call for more Holyrood powers 'crazy' from 6 December 2009.
A pity that Campbell didn't have the same nous in the interview to question Cameron's views on the formerly honourable but currently noble Lord's position.
In the 2nd article, it tells us that Forsyth "has branded plans to beef up Holyrood's powers under the Calman review of devolution "crazy"" and is quoted as saying: "The question would be, 'do you want to remain part of the United Kingdom? Yes or no?'. Gordon Brown should put that question on a ballot paper at the same time as people choose their MPs at the next election."
How odd that his glencambliness didn't think we'd be interested in Cameron's views of those thoughts, especially as Forsyth is still thought to be a strong candidate for Scotland's next viceroy.
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Just read the editorial from The Sunday Herald - it appears to have been written by someone who is very angry and does the newspaper no favours.
The paper starts off with this beauty:
The blogosphere has been echoing with howls of anguish from the SNP-supporting bloggers and posters who attempt to colonise newspaper comment sections and letters pages.
Does The Herald have evidence to back these claim up?
Are they accusing their own readers who write to the paper, with a view contrary to that of the paper, of attempting to colonise the letters page?
Do Unionists not write comments and letters?
Which particular bloggers is The Herald alluding to?
The Herald goes on to make 'questionable' claims:
... the SNP leadership using the Scottish Parliament to stage fund-raising lunches
The SNP have absolutely not used the Scottish Parliament or any of it's facilities to stage fundraising lunches, the fundraising lunch happened in a Glasgow Indian restaurant. The lunch that was to take place in the Holyrood restaurant was just that, a lunch.
Nicola Sturgeon’s wisdom in using the full weight of her elected office in an effort to prevent a convicted fraudster from going to jail.
The full weight of Nicola Sturgeon's office would be her influence as Deputy First Minister. Nicola Sturgeon did not write the letter as the Deputy FM but as a constituent MSP.
Further, Miss Sturgeon did not seek to use any power whatsoever in asking the judge to consider a non custodial sentence, Rauf's lawyer makes this very clear. I wonder what the lawyer will make of these claims by The Herald.
The Herald goes on:
What are Ms Sturgeon’s constituents in Govan, many of them on benefit, supposed to think when they see her leaping to the defence of a corrupt property developer with apparent assets of over half a million?
This is irrelevant - is The Herald now suggesting that rich people ought not to receive support from MSP's? Is this newspaper suggesting that the occupation of the constituent be taken into account? In fact, this 'public opinion court' is the very reason cited by non Unionists for the smear campaign.
It is unlikely that this fraudster will garner any sympathy from the public and as such the act of highlighting this letter in the manner that the Scottish media have done so was always going to see this public opinion used by the Unionist politicians.
Moreover, Nicola Sturgeon was not "leaping to his defence", his defence was provided by his lawyer. Nicola Sturgeon was asking the judge for his health and his young children to be taken into account along with his promise to pay back the money when passing judgement and that a non custodial sentence be considered.
It gets worse though:
Nationalist MSPs in Holyrood last week showed a marked reluctance to support her action when invited to do so by the Labour leader, Iain Gray.
They did no such thing. As far as I am aware every SNP politician who has made a statement on Nicola Sturgeon's action has supported that action.
If The Herald is referring to Iain Gray's childish stunt where he asked for hands to be raised in the chamber, then a so called quality newspaper damages it's reputation further by condoning the reducing of our debating chamber to this.
Right to the end of this extremely bitter and unwise editorial The Herald continues with an unprecedented attack on the SNP:
By throwing its toys out of the pram, the SNP is showing that it still has some growing up to do.
A remarkable statement indeed.
As far as I am concerned the SNP have, quite legitimitely, sought to defend itself as a result of these attacks. Highlighting similar behaviour on the part of senior Labour politicians is justifiable and is pertinant.
The behaviour of independence supporters in highlighting the hypocrisy of the media is also pertinant and justifiable.
The Herald calls the drawing of attention to Jack McConnell's letters to the police and similar Labour actions as "The hysterical postings on the internet".
It labels the questioning of the media's failure to apply the same levels of scrutiny and prominence to Unionist politicians who have behaved in a similar fashion in the past as "wild accusations of bias".
One wonders if The Herald includes Rauf's lawyer in any of these criticisms. I think that The Herald will have simply insulted and further alienated many once loyal readers with this editorial rant.
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454. Online Ed
"It gets worse though:
Nationalist MSPs in Holyrood last week showed a marked reluctance to support her action when invited to do so by the Labour leader, Iain Gray."
That part stuck out like a sore thumb! The whole piece no more than a childish tantrum!
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451 oldnat
'Lots -of- booze-gate' LoL!
Will labour now lead the custodial call for MP's that defrauded the expenses system?.
Lots-of-Jail-Birds-gate!.
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#438 mrb
As for being busy, no problem! Aren't we all!
"Not that i'm part of a union, and not that i don't think the union movement has as many problems as Labour.
"
Exactly. The unions have serious problems and I'd be the first to admit it...as someone who's a union rep. But that doesn't mean Cameron gets to decide how we should do things.
"It does present serious problems for Labour though. Cameron gets to hack away at their funding base while the tories suck away happily at the teat of untouchables like Ashcroft!"
Yes, totally. We are waiting with trepidation on what will happen when the Tories take power. It's not going to be pretty.
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454. Online Ed
"The Herald calls the drawing of attention to Jack McConnell's letters to the police and similar Labour actions as "The hysterical postings on the internet".
It labels the questioning of the media's failure to apply the same levels of scrutiny and prominence to Unionist politicians who have behaved in a similar fashion in the past as "wild accusations of bias"."
The Herald does sound rather hysterical doesn't it? At one time the Herald's hysteria would have been described as a "fear is often caused by multiple events in one's past that involved some sort of severe conflict; the fear can be centred on a body part or most commonly on an imagined problem with that body part" - in this case the body politic.
Nowadays, hysteria is referred to as "conversion disorder" - certainly the Herald's conversion to outright Unionism, rather than balanced reporting, is "disordered".
It's a fascinating defensive article by them. Why ever would they have written it, however? The most likely explanation would be that they are squeezed by the financial power of their advertisers on the one hand, and their falling readership due to their partiality on the other.
It is noticeable that their exposure of Tory (proved) and Labour (sub judice) scandals predate their recent approach.
On balance, I'd say that the underlying message to us is "Keep up the good work, guys and gals!"
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Notably absent from the strident self-justification in the Herald was the hint of any suggestion that they might have got it wrong, in any way.
But their reports on this, including Ian Bell's, were thuggish and ignorant.
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While referendums were off the menu for the Politics Show North Britain, the Politics Show Wales seems to have been full of them, following Cardiff's unanimous vote for one, which is now resting with the Wales Office at viceroy Hain's pleasure. Clearly less paranoid than BBC Scotlandshire, BBC Wales seemed to make their "referendum referendum" the main part of the show, with an impromptu AV referendum on both the assembly upgrade and AV voting held in a shopping centre. Going by the results, it didn't seem to have involved a hand-picked busload of BBC employees. See this website's Referendum word dominating talk in Wales.
I wonder what Pacific Quay make of such openness?
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382. amicusalba
"Even JRM (obviously looking to feel victimised for us poor Scots) at 06:38 goggles up a verse of victimisation written hundreds of years ago- or did you know by heart?"
No need to look it up. It was quoted in the article that stated that the UK GOVERNMENT has decided to keep it in the official version of God Save the Queen.
An announcement just made, my dear sir, NOT "hundreds of years ago".
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459. 7leagueboots
"But their reports on this, including Ian Bell's, were thuggish and ignorant."
Yes, that one came as a complete surprise! I've always enjoyed Bell's column, but when I read the one that, I think, you're referring to, it looked like he'd lost the plot!
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382. amicusalba
"Hell, maybe JRM can do it with you in a fake American Scots accent - it will be good therapy. "
Thanks you, sir, but I have a perfectly good Southern US accent. Your assumption that anyone from outside Scotland who would take an interest in Scottish politics is trying to fake being a Scot shows your own prejudice--an assumption of Scottish inferiority. (too wee, too poor, too stupid for anyone to care)
I'm not a Scot. I make it clear, always, that I am not a Scot.
I DO give a US perspective on Scottish politics and, you, sir, and your ilk do not come across well from this side of the pond.
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Ill idvised and bizarre of Cameron to say on one hand he'll treat Scotland with respect, then on the other come up here and pontificate on a wide range of issues including many that are clearly devolved to Holyrood.
His colleague Michael Gove gave a keynote speech on education, surely if anyone is doing this it should be their responsible MSP in Holyrood, not some MP who can't even get a seat in Scotland and has had to go down and find a safe seat in Surrey.
I think we've have a taste of things to come under a Tory government, and I think most Scots will not like it one bit.
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#463 JRM
" I DO give a US perspective on Scottish politics and, you, sir, and your ilk do not come across well from this side of the pond"
Lighten up on the compliments please JRM! so the ripples reach your neck of the woods! that's just fine and dandy. All these idioms! just make you stir crazy!.
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#412 enneffess.
It may surprise you that the trade union political levy is actually a voluntary part of the trade union dues. The unions may do their best to keep members in ignorance but the member can opt to give the levy to whoever they choose. I was a shop steward for over 15 years but was never a labour party member, voter or financial backer.
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455. albamac
"454. Online Ed
"It gets worse though:
Nationalist MSPs in Holyrood last week showed a marked reluctance to support her action when invited to do so by the Labour leader, Iain Gray."
That part stuck out like a sore thumb! The whole piece no more than a childish tantrum!"
It could get worse yet -
I reliable sources in the inside the scots chapter of New Laboured that at next FMQ's Gray will try and make the parly play 'heads down, thumbs up'!
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As usual, Conan has a good take on Cameron's North British excursion.
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457. fourstrikes
"Yes, totally. We are waiting with trepidation on what will happen when the Tories take power. It's not going to be pretty."
Yes, it's a pity consumerism and the whole 'look out for number 1' philosophy has taken such a hold in the UK, if the unions are presented as hurting the punters, the tories will gut the unions. God help you if you're a union in the evil public sector.
Good old divide & conquer; never fails...
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Nicola Sturgeon 'hypocrisy' over NHS anti-fraud drive
But a sheriff received a letter from her last week urging him to impose “alternatives to a custodial sentence” after Abdul Rauf admitted stealing £80,000 from the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP).
They are getting more worried by the minute, poor souls.
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I see the bbc news channel make room to publicise and let the nazies get over there point it seems any set of loonies will get a chance on the bbc news channel as long as it’s got British in the name.
Would people please phone in and complain
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467. mrbfaethedee
It was a pitiful piece. They whinge and throw their toys about because readers DARE to criticize them. They bring up past "good deads" but whinge about readers bringing up Labour MP/MSPs having done the same as Ms. Sturgeon.
Then they have the NERVE to compare her writing a letter to "cash for honours". I do hope this little temper tantrum loses them a lot of readers.
I used to read it pretty regularly. I now avoid EVER giving them any page views since that does drive revenue. I was reluctant to even look at their editorial. As with The Scotsman, it is now on my "verboten" list. I will not allow my reading anything there to add to any income they may receive.
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#414. fourstrikes.
There are some things not getting through about all this. It is of no consequence what the crime a constituent has committed, or is accused of, they remain a constituent. The MSP remains their representative and, like any person charged with a crime they are entitled to representation. We have read here of other MPs and MSPs who have spoken for people charged with violent crime, this crime was not violent. If the accused have not been tried they must be presumed to be innocent and if tried and found guilty they are still entitled to be represented. Just like a defence council the MP or MSP is duty bound to represent them even if they despise them and their crime. If we fail to uphold those ideals then we are no better than the criminals who are found guilty. This is the same principle that saw our civilised society ban the death penalty. Anyway the claim that either Ms Sturgeon, or the SNP, will represent all criminals is bogus, they are only charged by the system to represent those constituents who request them to do so.
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458. oldnat
"On balance, I'd say that the underlying message to us is "Keep up the good work, guys and gals!""
Exactly! Well worth mentioning and exhorting!
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There's a new YouTube video on Duff Gordon well worth watching and sharing.
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Can't think why my #468 is taking so long to moderate. It was just a link to Conan's latest headlines.
Perhaps I messed up the HTML so here's the raw link:
http://mypseudepigrapha.blogspot.com/2010/02/hootsmon-headlines_14.html
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So I decided to tell CMD how I felt.
Good evening Mr Cameron,
I trust you enjoyed the Conservative Party conference in Perth this week and further, that you enjoyed the hospitality that an exemplary country like Scotland provides distinguished guests such as yourself.
I myself did not have such an agreeable weekend and I think by recalling the events in Perth on Saturday, you can help me explain exactly why.
In May of 2009 you publicly stated that should you become the next Prime Minister of the Butchers Apron, you would seek "Positive Engagement" with the Scottish Government on a range of matters that are in both our countries interests - which of course I was delighted to hear.
However, the problem for me, started when you decided to do the complete opposite, by publicly decrying a decision made by a minister of the Scottish Government on a devolved matter. I am of course referring to your criticism of Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Secretary who made the decision to release the Lockerbie Bomber.
Can you tell me what authority as MP for Whitney, Leader of the opposition and Leader of the Conservative Party you have in criticising the actions of a cabinet secretary of another parliament? I don't believe you have any authority in Scotland - let alone within the Scottish parliament, to criticise anyone. I feel that representations and objections to the quasi-judicial decision would have been best left to your deputy in Holyrood, Ms Annabel Goldie. Instead you broke your promise of "positive engagement" and decided instead to grab a passing sound bite - a truly contrived and conceited act worthy only of a disingenuous, untrustworthy politician.
But I digress, my ire this weekend took its shape in 2 forms - firstly with your "Clean slate" pledge to work with the Scottish Government again. You will understand my apprehension to your speech, as you had form for breaking an identical promise just 9 short months ago. Little did I know that you would proceed to break your second within the day.
The second form was of course your comments regarding Nicola Sturgeons’ letter to a sentencing Sheriff. I believe them to be not only irrelevant, but they were outright lies masquerading as moralistic disquiet. You stated;
"I think in advising that there should not be a custodial sentence that does seem to me to cross a line"
To insinuate or even claim that Ms Sturgeon advised the Judge about anything is an absolute lie. Ms Sturgeon, in her letter - which no doubt you didn’t even bother reading - asked the judge to consider a non-custodial sentence based on mitigating factors. She didn't attempt to sway or "advise" a sitting Sherriff of anything. Your comments were wicked lies and you should be thoroughly ashamed of the way in which you conducted yourself.
For a man who proclaims to usher in a congenial and progressive relationship with the incumbent Scottish Government - you've done little more than grab headlines and snatch sound bites - claiming to be the partner of the Scottish Government while simultaneously undermining them under the guise of righteous concern.
You disgust me.
Should the impending general election result in your ascension to the post of Prime Minister I would like you to be aware of one very stark fact.
We will not forget.
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442. govanite
"None of your business Dave - a domestic issue for Scottish politics. You worry about England - we already have a capable Government here."
The buffoon genuinely doesn't know this. He comes from an entrenched tradition that views Scotland as a subject nation of "Imperial England". He truly knows no better. Pity his ignorance!
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463. At 6:29pm on 14 Feb 2010, JRMacClure says;
"I DO give a US perspective on Scottish politics and, you, sir, and your ilk do not come across well from this side of the pond".
No JRM, you give YOUR perspective of Scottish politics. Having worked in DC for the past 5 years I know very well how my 'ilk' come across. Though unsure what my 'ilk' are. If I were to sound off with such partisan judgments on American politics I believe they would find me at best, opinionated or a little bit of a strange fish.
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I wonder if Iain wrote the SunHer editorial? Shame really. http://iainmacwhirter2.blogspot.com/
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458. oldnat
"It's a fascinating defensive article by them. Why ever would they have written it, however? The most likely explanation would be that they are squeezed by the financial power of their advertisers on the one hand, and their falling readership due to their partiality on the other.
It is noticeable that their exposure of Tory (proved) and Labour (sub judice) scandals predate their recent approach.
On balance, I'd say that the underlying message to us is "Keep up the good work, guys and gals!""
Well put.
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I see the bbc news channel make room to publicise and let the Brittish National party get over there point, it seems any set of loonies will get a chance on the bbc news channel as long as it’s got British in the name.
Would people please phone in and complain, it’s strange that the bbc promote British values and there staff look to pass judgement on a snp leader well pandering to this
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Brilliant youtube Brownedov!
Thanks.
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I wonder how the unemployed in the North-East will view Brown’s alleged attempts to stymie this business park?
The Telegraph:
Gordon Brown's fear of donor David Abrahams 'will cost region dear'
David Abrahams donated more than £500,000 to the Labour Party, but he has become so controversial that Gordon Brown is allegedly encouraging Hitachi to avoid investing in a business park that he owns in the North-East.
http://tinyurl.com/y96qjm6
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"No apology for holding government to account
The blogosphere has been echoing with howls of anguish from the SNP-supporting bloggers and posters who attempt to colonise newspaper comment sections and letters pages.
They believe something dark is afoot – nothing less than a conspiracy by the Unionist press (that’s us) to undermine the SNP in time for the general election in May. "
Can't you just feel the hurt??
Now why are they so worried about comments made in the land of blog?
They after all, stopped the " internet vermin" in the Herald.
Perhaps news of customer dissatisfaction has reached the ears of the owners?
Ist possible?
I love the way this is worded, spitting dummies out, toys out of the pram etc!
Sorry whoever wrote that, but you look utterly foolish, mind you the Herald has looked that way for some time now you have merely added to the impression of a Labour Press release.
I don't normally bother with the Herald but thanks for pointing out that little ,puerile , whining piece - fair made my day!
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466. Auld Bob:
Hi Bob, I knew unions could choose who to donate to, I just thought it always defaulted to Labour.
I've never joined a union, and while we have one at work I flatly refuse to join because I have issues with the way that only the union can negotiate salaries. And our union have to play in tune with their national office, which has left us with a pay deal still to be ratified after a year.
Unions do have their advantages, but none that would be of interest to me.
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441. hamish42:
And the editor, if he bothers to, will draft a reply on the lines of "we are a private organisation" and "the SNP are the government therefore receive the most criticism..........".
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477. Gary Hay:
Assuming you have emailed or written to Cameron, it will be discarded because of two words: "Butcher's Apron". The rest of the letter is absolutely sound, but adding what is effectively an insult means it will be ignored.
However, it would be interesting to see the content if he does reply. Probably a typical politician's answer - spin and no substance.
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On the Sturgeon issue, the sentencing date looks like it will be AFTER the general election, so any politicial capital to be made out of it will be worthless.
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467. mrbfaethedee:
Naw! Gray wants to play Kiss, Cuddle or Torture. Or does he play that every week.......
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475. Brownedov
Exemplary worthy of an Oscar or a Brit award at least.
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Come all you young bloggers and lend us an ear
For the Herald of Scotland you might shed a tear
It would seem that you bloggers have upset the cart
By turning on journos,saying they're not so smart
The internet vermin have been on the attack
And upset the minds of those delicate hacks
They don't realise they've destroyed any trust
And the internet gives the news thats a must.
Investigative journalism lies dead in its grave
So the balls in your court, now try to be brave
Just give us the facts , bare faced and unspun
And you'll find the bloggers will leave you alone.
With apologies to William Topaz Mc Gonagall
( but not the once mighty Herald)
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#375 Teeny: Just came across your squalid and defamatory post. It's better left there as a testament to what you are, rather than a description of me. I am undeniably old (is that a problem?), occasionally condescending, but always truthful.
What has the "Davefest" or "Old England" got to do with me?
Intemperate lashings out at those who question you, disagree with you, or poke fun at you are not the hallmark of a mature blogger, political activist or person. There are anger management classes in some towns. But a good deep breath can help.
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i asked david cameron over two months ago to explain what he meant when he stated in a television interview that he would give scotland a referendum on independence if they showed that they wanted it.
i asked him ,in his opinion, how the people of scotland would "show" they wanted a referendum.
he hasn't got back to me yet but i've emailed him again for a reply.
i am very interested in the response from the man who last week said he would repair the rift between the uk and scottish parliaments. the same man who vowed to treat scotland with respect. the same man who then went on to say he would oppose a referendum on independence.
the man in charge of a party who are as big a certainty to win the general election as arkle running off level weights in a selling hurdle. only because england have no credible choice. tory...labour...tory...yawn. different party, same sleaze.same lies.
the man who's party will win the general election, then will "dole" out whatever crumbs HE deems necessary to a country that overwhelmingly DON'T want governed by him and his racist, negative and insular party.
they are not working to the will of the people. that's what they are paid to do as public servants. there is only one choice for the scottish people as there is only one party that supports independence for scotland and one party willing to give scots THEIR SAY on THEIR FUTURE.
just an aside..anyone else sick and tired of getting two weather bulletins one after the other every night?
i asked the "faither o' the nation" (lol) donald dewar, what he believed scotland gained by being part of the union.
his response (which i still have) was.. "if scotland was not in the union they would no longer get top of the pops and eastenders"
incredibly he actually put it in writing.
i'd like to point out his use of the word THEY. tells us everything we need to know about how labour and all the other union-loving politickers and media view proud scots. scots with suffient pride to believe in themselves and their abilities and ambitions.scots proud enough to join most of the rest of the world in standing alone, yet in partnerships that benefit each equally, not bound and shackeled in an abusive and heterotrophic "union".WE dont expect labour or the media to support it as they don't subscribe to those sentiments. that leaves us with one choice. SNP.
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Aw! C'mon mods!
Did you not like my poem?
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#486
Just as well the edit I posted here said "Butchers Apron" in place of "United Kingdom" that I sent Cameron ;-)
I'm not just a pretty face.
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491. Diabloandco
They are busy argueing over to royalties on the copyright. nice one.
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492. Gary Hay:
Perhaps you should have left those words in! Might elicit a better response.
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#494
I'm thinking I'll get the chance to say that to him personally.
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"Wall St. Helped to Mask Debt Fuelling Europe’s Crisis"
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=1&hp
"Edward Manchester, a senior vice president at the Moody’s credit rating agency, said the deal would ultimately be a money-loser for Greece because of its long-term payment obligations."
Doesn't this whole process remind you of Labour's obsession with PFI? Keep the debt off the books. Spend money now for short-term political advantage. Quick deals that cost the public purse more in the long term. Leave succeeding generations to pay the cost.
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488. Diabloandco
"Come all you young bloggers and lend us an ear
For the Herald of Scotland you might shed a tear
It would seem that you bloggers have upset the cart
By turning on journos,saying they're not so smart
The internet vermin have been on the attack
And upset the minds of those delicate hacks
They don't realise they've destroyed any trust
And the internet gives the news thats a must.
Investigative journalism lies dead in its grave
So the balls in your court, now try to be brave
Just give us the facts , bare faced and unspun
And you'll find the bloggers will leave you alone.
With apologies to William Topaz Mc Gonagall
( but not the once mighty Herald)"
Excellent!
And to prove it I'm sure it will put the good "brigadier" into attack mode as does any criticism of his oh-so-perfect dead-tree press (especially when it's obediently unionist). ;)
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497. JRMacClure
"I'm sure it will put the good "brigadier" into attack mode"
One needs to have some sympathy for the brig. When I first started posting here, the threads were dominated by his wars with a Nat ex-journalist (whose user name I've forgotten). Both used to petulantly disappear from time to time.
Old men like to fight old wars. (some of us, of course, are remarkably young for our years!) :-)
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498. oldnat
"One needs to have some sympathy for the brig. When I first started posting here, the threads were dominated by his wars with a Nat ex-journalist (whose user name I've forgotten). Both used to petulantly disappear from time to time.
Old men like to fight old wars. (some of us, of course, are remarkably young for our years!) :-)"
Haha! Well, I've petulantly disappeared a time or two so I can sympathize with that. Poor man, I really do understand the dismay at the rapid fall of the dead-tree press.
I did work there myself and was more distressed than I can tell you when the last newspaper I worked for failed. But one has to understand that the world has changed and I'm afraid I think it is for the better when journalists can no longer control all of the information.
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498. oldnat
"(some of us, of course, are remarkably young for our years!) :-)"
And I'm sure you are! No doubt Mrs. Nat assures you so. ;-)
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