Wise warning
It is a small, but thoroughly worthwhile, step for a man. Giant leaps may take a little longer to arrange.
I am talking, admittedly somewhat obliquely, of Alex Salmond's visit to Euro Finance week in Frankfurt.
There he will meet the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, plus other eminent financiers and politicians.
His visit, of course, comes in the aftermath of the tribulations visited upon Scotland's banks and financial sector.
I was particularly struck by the warning given to Holyrood by Jeremy Peat.
Mr Peat, formerly a senior economist with RBS, told Parliament's economy committee that he feared the "centre of gravity" in banking and finance would shift from Edinburgh to London.
Severe setbacks
A wise warning. We are social animals. We, mostly, perform best when we experience the counsel and the competition of those engaged in broadly the same activity.
Plus, of course, there are pragmatic matters such as the availability of diverse skills in a cluster. Reduce the cluster and you thin the skills.
Mr Salmond, of course, knows that only too well. He has also argued, repeatedly, that we should be wary of talking down the entire Scottish financial sector on the basis of admittedly severe setbacks in large-scale banking.
Let us remember, too, that other parts of the world have suffered substantially in the financial crisis.
We are not alone, not uniquely damaged. Collectively, let us strive to repair such damage as has been done.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~18~RS~)
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Brian
One of the problems is that bankers are social animals. If one does something new then all of them "have" to too. Before CDOs there was sovereign lending. One of the advantages of our northern fastness used to be that we did not get these infections. Canadian banks almost as a point of principle refuse to follow the "lead" of USA banking and heven't they done well. Can you really say the Union has benefited us in this matter, would we not have been better off independent as the Canadians are?
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Peat is wrong. The so called Scottish banks have always been effectively run from London. Their main shareholders were City based fund managers and they were regulated by City centric organisations including the FSA, the Treasury and the BoE.
That apart, there is obvious merit in what Alex Salmond is trying to achieve. Scotland could not operate without a functioning banking/financial services system but of course it does not need the sort of system it had pre credit crunch.
If we are going to properly rebalance the economy then we need banks that work with industry and Govt and not in isolation as they did before. This may mean setting up new banks that have a more regional remit and tighter controls placed on them. The level of control would depend on to what extent they become involved in developing Scotland's economy.
In other words, unlike the Chancellor who told the FT he didn't believe in economic patriotism, we need our banks to demonstrate that they do.
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Brian,
Whilst this visit may ultimately bear fruit and will develop important relationships if and when Scotland regains home rule, isn't this more of a topic for Douglas Fraser's Ledger?
This week-end, there have already been some post-Glasgow NE developments of much more immediate relevance to Scottish politics. Why not a thread on:
Hain's veto of Edinburgh for the permanent secretariat of the British-Irish council, thus rejecting the democratic consensus of ALL the other participants? ... AND/OR ...
Clegg's demand to scrap the Queen's speech and concentrate on constitutional issues presumably leading to a referendum simultaneous with the general election, much to the embarrassment of Tavish Scott MSP? ... AND/OR ...
Labour's financial woes and thoughts re not fighting too hard in vulnerable seats?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mr Salmond, of course, knows that only too well. He has also argued, repeatedly, that we should be wary of talking down the entire Scottish financial sector on the basis of admittedly severe setbacks in large-scale banking.
Let us remember, too, that other parts of the world have suffered substantially in the financial crisis.
We are not alone, not uniquely damaged. Collectively, let us strive to repair such damage as has been done.
Well said Brian, careless talk costs jobs.
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3. Brownedov
"Hain's veto of Edinburgh for the permanent secretariat of the British-Irish council, thus rejecting the democratic consensus of ALL the other participants? ... AND/OR ..."
Would show how undemocratic Westminster is and always has been.
"Clegg's demand to scrap the Queen's speech and concentrate on constitutional issues presumably leading to a referendum simultaneous with the general election, much to the embarrassment of Tavish Scott MSP? ... AND/OR ..."
Would show how undemocratic Westminster is and always has been.
"Labour's financial woes and thoughts re not fighting too hard in vulnerable seats?"
Unfit for purpose.
Committed Unionist are unable to see that they are unfit to rule.
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afternoon , fully agree with #2 wee scamp.
RBS & HBOS had to grow to survive and as soon as you grow in England ,a country 10 times bigger in both size and population but, as your neighbour the smart place to go and grow, you very quickly loose your "scottishness" and quite rightly become seen as a "British" bank who then set out to conquer the world.
The banks have still not been forced to split their business's into high street banks and investment banks so that the high street banks can get back to being a bank instead of a casino.
in every disaster there is always opportunity,in this case political opportunity
the fact that once RBS &HBOS got themselves in such a state that they had to be baled out Labour grabbed the opportunity with both hands and the Dunfermline episode was a disgrace.
If we need to start new banks from scratch to get the services that are required then that's what we need to do. At least then we might stand a chance of them actually doing what we the public and the small businessmen require from them and might actually get a decent service at a decent cost.
I agree "we are not alone,not uniquely damaged" BUT WE ARE UNIQUE in that another country is pulling the strings and we are striving with one hand tied behind our backs.
Sid
PS.still the only member of the G8 in recession , how much longer till we get flung out of the "club"??
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Online Ed Here
There is a thirst for information that the likes of Taylor is paid to satisfy - he is failing.
The atermath of Glasgow North East has already been hijacked by the Scottish press who are using the result in order to convince Scots that the SNP are now as dead as the dodo.
MacWhirter has a piece here that makes quite a few dramatic leaps of imagination.
Normally a reasoned and intelligent writer he seems to have succumbed to the malaise that has inflicted the rest of the Scottish media and has decided that the marvellous Labour campaign was the reason for the victory and that the SNP have no-where to go.
Incredibly MacWhirter has convinced himself that Willie Bain disagreeing with Labour Westminster policy whenever he was asked about it was a stroke of genius.
Imagine for a second that David Kerr openly disagreed with central policies of the SNP either at Westminster or Holyrood - he would have been torn to pieces [quite rightly] by the media.
Labour's campaign was not good - they had nothing to offer but a slogan. I've said it often that a campaign is only as good as the scrutiny it is held up to.
Absolutey nobody seems to wants to point out that the Labour campaign was not only negative but was dishonest - they actually lied on the core issue that the SNP were anti Glasgow.
The result itself was not what it is being reported to be for Labour, their real vote is down again to under 60% - 2005 was a freak result that saw over 4000 people vote for Socialist Labour and not speaker Martin - perhaps in error.
In truth Labour's vote has been eroding for years and not even a campaign with armour protection against media scrutiny coupled with an avalanche of negative stories and smears prevented the SNP from improving their own percentage.
If the media steadfastly refuse to give you a platform in order to debunk smears whilst simultaneously promoting the same smears then there is basically nothing you can do, leaflets will only do so much.
The real story of Glasgow North East is the way in which those 67% of people simply refused to vote. Such a fantastic Labour campaign yet the very people who would previously have rushed to vote Labour simply turned off. They did not go for an alternative because they were never made aware of what the alternative was.
Glagow East saw a very high profile media event with Labour demanding, and getting, high profile TV debates - they thought that Mason's TV inexperience would be his undoing.
What actually happened was that the electorate were made aware of who he was, what he stood for and what Labour were offering. I still remember the taxi driver railing against Margaret Curran on one of the debates.
These tings resonate with people, they start to realise that there are others who are fed up with Labour - they become energised.
Labour and the media have learned that honest debate exposes the soft Labour underbelly, the two subsequent by-elections have focussed on Labour's campaign slogans and not the things that matter to people - debate was stifled.
If a boxer enters the ring knowing that the ref will prevent the opponent from landing a punch then he can dance about with his arms at his side whilst throwing the odd weak jab - and he'll win massively on points. The radio commentators might tell you that he fought a marvellous tactical fight - however, those who actually watched what went on will know the truth.
Finally:
Newsnet Scotland has reported the apology that BBC Scotland issued to SNP's Alex Neil. The broadcast that led to the apology was broadcast during the Glasgow North East campaign.
It has yet to be reported by any traditional news outlet in Scotland .....
Newsnet Scotland broke through the 400 subscribers barrier at the weekend.
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Has anyone been watching the History of Scotland on the beeb? Scotland sold down the river by the Bankers and Union sympathisers - and they do say that History repeats itself!!
As long as AS can learn from History and help to drive forward change in our banks for the better, but as sid rightly points out "we are striving with one hand tied behind our backs."
It is alarming that the banks have had so much taxpayers money yet small businesses the supposedly so called barometer for the economy, still cant get their hands on it without having to jump through hoops, as our Bank Relationship Manager said, if you can show profit for six months we will lend you money - if we were in profit we wouldn't need the money!!
We are still a long way off from recovery but am sure the bankers will be ok as they will invest our money in the Asian markets, make their bonuses and stick two fingers up to the rest of us, would it have been any different if we were independant? Greed got Scotland into the Union in the first place and greed will continue to drive the financial markets no matter the level of regulation applied, they will always find a way. AS may be on his way to meet "eminent financiers and politicians" but at the end of the day are they not all in it for themselves? What good does he expect to come from it? What will he have to give away to become a member of this club? Whilst i appreciate his efforts in trying to secure a way forward for the Scottish financial scene, how is he going to be able to negotiate any settlement when he has no clout? GB and his Darling are the big boys in this playground and these emminent financiers and politicians are probably only meeting with AS out of courtesy but with no real intent on listening.
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"9. At 1:43pm on 16 Nov 2009, skintybroko wrote
As long as AS can learn from History and help to drive forward change in our banks for the better, but as sid rightly points out "we are striving with one hand tied behind our backs."
I think 2 hands would be more accurate actually.
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Just briefly stop by to examine the nationalist angst and the latest conspiracy theories of the SNP's humiliating failure to dent the vote of the UK's least popular party....and I find this repeated example of nationalist ignorance.
7. Sidthesceptic:
"PS.still the only member of the G8 in recession , how much longer till we get flung out of the "club"??",
We can't and won't get flung out for the simple matter that we aren't the 8th, 7th or even 6th largest economy within the G8 group.
Only if it changed to the 'G4' would the UK lose a seat at that particular table.
(Once you've grasped that little factette, Sid, you can bring Brownedov up to speed as he regularly struggles with this too.)
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Who do you reckon will pay for the increased budget for the games. HMT? Or should we just take it from the oil revenue before it gets into their hands? Seriously, should we not come up with a better formula for estimations. Like Y = X/2 x 10 x 2 and then put tripple that ammount aside!!!
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Thanks for the warning here Brian. What we are seeing here is the dismantling of a state in small, but not insignificant, steps. The UK government has, in the recent past (thatcher), destroyed our manufacturing base and now Labour are finishing off the job. The have destroyed our regimental system (against advice from the military), destoyed our financial sector (Brian is now readying us for the inevitable move of Edinburgh's finance industry to be shipped south) and have repeatedly tried to destroy our sense of being Scottish.
I had warned before that the UK government would make sure that Scotland, and its ability to live as an independent nation, would be destroyed before they let us go. We are witnessing that now.
Why would the UK do this to us? Because it can and is showing its potential northern neighbour that you can't (put in whatever expletive suits you here) with us. Thank you UK because most of the Scots have been loyal to the crown and laid their lives down to help build the UK and the wealth that it has gained from the rest of the world and now that we might decide to go our own way you do this to us.
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#11 reluctant-expat, good to see you back ,glad to see you have not lost any of your famous arrogance.
"we can't and won't get flung out for the simple matter that we aren't the 8th,7th or even the 6th largest economy in the G8"
So what you are saying is we can't or won't be flung out.
on what basis do you think this to be true ?
politicians are politicians the world over and country's just like company's and indeed people can and will be dropped like a stone if they don't fit in with the corporate image!
or is it just they wouldn't dare!!
Sid
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13. Totally insane.
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11. Reluctant-Expat
"We can't and won't get flung out for the simple matter that we aren't the 8th, 7th or even 6th largest economy within the G8 group. "
8th United Kingdom $ 2,236,000,000,000 2008 est
But don't let truth addle your mind.
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#7 Yes Sid
As the UK slips further down the rankings, below Italy now and falling, and as the Indians, Brazilians and Russians catch up I think there is indeed the risk of embarassment for the UK of getting kicked out of the G8 - luckily they have Scotland's oil.
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Wow, you lot are worse than ever!
16. Did you even read that list or consider actually finding out what the G8 countries are? Or were you in too much of a hurry to embarrass yourself?
17. Below Italy now? Nope, wrong again!
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Isn't the G8 suppose to be the about the 8th largest economies and therefore influential countries in the world?
If the UK does fall, then what reason would the UK have to be apart of the G8, if having such a small economy?
There will be other countries who may seek to be apart of the 'cool club', and may actually prove more useful, especially as they may not have the debts.
I guess someone here still believes the UK is a world super power...
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Missed this one.
14. Read my post again and you'll see it answers your questions.
But now you are suggesting that the UK could be dropped from the G8, not because of size of the economy but because the UK might no longer fit the "corporate image" of the G8? And what corporate image does the G8 have, Sid?
One more thing to note from the various nationalist responses to my post is that they all contradict each other!
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7. sidthesceptic
And given that our economic eggs are in the basket (case) that is ''the city', it looks pretty bleak when Britain is the AAA-rated nation most under threat of a downgrade. If the UK's financial worthiness becomes worth-less amongst its peers, it may well find the doors of global clubs shutting.
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16. cynicalHighlander
Sorry. RE is right. UK was 5th place in the G*, 8th place in the G20.
However, given that these were 2008 figures, and the UK were hugely boosted by London's financial bubble, the next round of figures will be interesting.
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'SNP subsidising Glasgow' - The SNP was today accused of subsidising Glasgow when it was revealed that in addition to the £400 million allocated to the 2014 Commonwealth Games, Alex Samond's Government will cough up another £50 million for a city that doesn't even vote for them.
A source close to Scottish Labour Leader Jim Murphy said 'Alex Salmond's Government spends too much money on Glasgow, we spent nothing and they still vote for us. Salmond is wasting tax payers' cash.'
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Reluctant-Expat:
#20.
"One more thing to note from the various nationalist responses to my post is that they all contradict each other!"
Is this because we all share a difference in opinion on topics?
Your the sole person that appears willing to tar all nationalists with the same brush.
Perhaps now, you'll stop blaming 'all nationalists' considering it must be embarressing for you since not all nationalists think alike, heck some may actually support your opinion if you are willing.
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Details of the latest YouGov poll now up on their site.
England and Wales only figures are
Party, %
Con, 42.6%
Lab, 26.7%
LD, 18.5%
Other, 12.6%
16% Tory lead over Lab.
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#20 reluctant expat- thanks for that so i was right it's as simple as "they wouldn't dare!!"
also , are you saying that the G8 do not have an image and a standard that must be adhered to?
when GB & co finally bankrupts the UK they won't see all their pals in the G8 for dust.
Sid
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15. At 2:45pm on 16 Nov 2009, Reluctant-Expat wrote:
13. Totally insane."
No it's not. Whether there was mallicious intent or not may be up for debate, but that's whats happened.
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The G8 isn't based purely economic size anyway. It was a club made up out of the major players in industrialised nations of a western style. It's rapidly losing relevance in the post-cold war world, that's why the G8+5 and G-20 are now of equal if not greater importance already.
The idea that the UK might be 'thrown out of the club' doesn't really matter all that much (i don't think anyone ever will, g8 will simply continue to lose relevence), when when the underlying point is that the UK is looking increasing like a diminishing force on the world stage, and worse is failing its own people. Much better to quibble about a single economic determinant like total GDP, than the fact that the UK is on the wane, or even sidthesceptic's actual point - that the UK is the only G8 economy still in recession.
That would lead us into discussing what's wrong with the UK though, and that would expose us as the crazy, conspiratorial, natjobs that we are!
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Glasgow Commonwealth Games requires another £81 million - a fair amount of money, unfortunately. But the Olympic-sized overspend on London 2012 is pushing costs to at least £12bn, £2.7 billion more than the promised limit.
http://tinyurl.com/yga9hp6
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#11 Reluctant-Expat
"Only if it changed to the 'G4' would the UK lose a seat at that particular table."
Ah, so that's Duff Gordon's master plan, is it?
"you can bring Brownedov up to speed as he regularly struggles with this too."
Care to quote a thread or a rough date to back up that assertion? I suspect not, since it's your usual un-fact.
I certainly did criticise Duff Gordon's homily on saving scraps while he had his snout in a G-something banqueting trough but I deny any such thing as you suggest.
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#25 oldnat
"England and Wales only figures are ...."
With the Scottish scraps of such polls being virtually useless even if properly weighted, which I doubt many are, the E&W figures you've started separating out really are the only ones worth examining. Keep up the good work, but we need to find a way of persuading the electoral calculators to provide an E&W only entry option ... or do you know of one already?
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Good article by Joan McAlpine in the Timesonline here.
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#253 Neil_Small147 (previous thread),
I agree any government needs a strong opposition. I was thinking that an independent Scottish Conservative Party could carry out that task in a free Scotland.
As for the current blog, oh dearie me. "Working together" will not necessarily achieve the world's goals. What will is common-sense banking. Here in North Carolina we have been hit less hard than many parts of the USA (although unemployment is higher than it might be). In terms of banking, NC has Bank of America and had Wachovia (now owned by Wells Fargo of California) - NC-based but national players.
However, what it also has is a couple of very strong regional banks who kept away from the exotic deals and stuck to boring banking. We also have a solid credit union, (like an old-fashioned building society) bigger locally than BoA or Wachovia, which kept the lid on the mortgage market. It is those banks who are lending (responsibly) to businesses and consumers and it is those banks who will lead NC out of recession ahead of the pack.
We can work together all we want, but those who prosper will be those who get back to basics. Banks do not create wealth. They merely create the right conditions for wealth.
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# 29 tullibardine
Just a matter of interest. Who gave out the tenders for the construction companies and who signed the contracts?
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8. U14094468
Greenock boy
I agree with a lot of your post the whole campaign was poor and negative from both sides.
However you appear to ignore the SNP failings on the campaign. They made a huge issue out of where Willie Bain lived, only to allow Labour to point out the whiter than white Mr Kerr had forgotten (again) where he was born. A stupid mistake that left Kerr's looking a bit of a lame duck.
The 67% that didn't vote must be particularly galling for the SNP, it should be a major concern for all parties. A party offering genuine irrefutable change, yet the public just did not want it. They just could not sell the message. Now the people of Glasgow NE would have spent time listening to the media but also listening to the canvassers, so why could the message that they so easily sold in Glasgow last time not work again?
The answer is of course very complex, but the real learning point here is the message needs to change to adapt. Because if people in areas like Glasgow NE and Glenrothes won't buy change the change won't happen.
So some fundamental thinking is required. The message has of course changed a lot over the last year, apparently we can still be British if we want, we can keep the Queen, the pound, the rest of the UK defence bases, get the BBC for free. Basically all the advantages without any disadvantages. Oh and the whole thing will not cost any more money. The problem is that the more people see the SNP add detail the less credible the proposal becomes.
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11. Reluctant-Expat
""PS.still the only member of the G8 in recession , how much longer till we get flung out of the "club"??",
We can't and won't get flung out for the simple matter that we aren't the 8th, 7th or even 6th largest economy within the G8 group.
"
You left out part of that. The UK aren't the 8th, 7th or even 6th largest economy STILL IN RECESSION AND SHOWING NO SIGNS OF RECOVERY.
Hence, yes, indeed, the UK could be chucked out.
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35. northhighlander
"The message has of course changed a lot over the last year, apparently we can still be British if we want, we can keep the Queen, the pound, the rest of the UK defence bases, get the BBC for free. "
First, would you care to SHOW me where the SNP attacked Willie Bain over his lies about where he lives? Frankly, I think they should have but I don't see a single place that they did. INDIVIDUALS on this blog pointed it out and pointed it out regularly. The SNP did NOT to the best of my knowledge so there you are pure and simple wrong.
Other than that, you were making a pretty good post until you decided to misrepresent the SNP position on a number of issues.
Of course, people will still be "British" since, unless I am mistaken, the name if the ISLAND is Britain. I don't think the name belongs to the United Kingdom. There is no push to keep the pound, but the currency decision will be put to a VOTE OF THE PEOPLE (now THERE is a concept). The SNP advocates switching to the Euro.
There are bases in Scotland. They simply exist and will be used or not used. They MIGHT be leased to the UK. They MIGHT be leased to the US or Russia or used by Scotland. (You do realize that the UK has bases, for example, in Germany. Do you think that makes GERMANY a part of the UK? Is that "no change?")
Yes, Scotland could keep the monarchy--as did Canada, New Zealand, Australia. (That means THEY had no change? I suspect THEY would disagree). BBC? Well, I believe the Republic of Ireland gets it. What is your point with that?
Debate is a good thing, but you KNOW all of that. So how about making it an HONEST debate?
None of that had a thing, I am pretty sure, regarding the NGE by-election. Westminster isn't where independence will be debated. It isn't where a referendum will be approved. It wasn't what concerned the people of NGE, for the most part, rather sadly in my opinion.
A good question would be what did
A valid question WOULD: Why did 2/3 of the people choose to say "A pox upon ALL of your houses?" But discussion does not involve trying to bash independence.
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Online Ed Here
Comment 35 northhighlander:
I appreciate the civil nature of your post, unfortunately I dont't really have the time to debate - however feel free to pen an article and send it to Newsnet Scotland ..... I'll publish it, I'm serious.
To the person who contacted Newsnet Scotland general comment saying that although he/she recived the four previous editions but not edition 5 - please send another message with your email address and I'll send the edition out.
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GNE... I can type! Really.
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# 23 - the timing of the Commonwealth Games announcement surprises me. If the Scottish Government had made it a week earlier, it might have debunked the myth the Glasgow is hard done by and the ASNP has an anti-Glasgow bias.
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In point of fact, when the newer figures come out, with the UK's continuing recession, I will not be at all surprised if they do drop out of the top 8 down to 9th or 10th unless something turns around and turns around soon. Not going into recovery is a grim indicator. While I consider the recovery in the US paper thin, it at least exists--slight but encouraging.
The UK is in dire financial straits. I'm sorry. I mean that because I have friends who are being hurt.
Ok, none of the people posting at the moment (as far as I know) are Tories or at least admit to such, but what really ARE the Tory economic policies that might change the UK's downward financial spiral? Are there any? And how WILL they play in Scotland?
Anyone have any insight on this?
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Well at least Mr Salmond can visit the ECB in Frankfurt-am-Main. Imagine what what the Tory Euro-hate mob would say if Mr Cameron went there.
Maybe if the Tories get into power in Westminster, get very unpopular in Scotland then Mr Salmond will propose a referendum about joining the Euro. The Tories would go crazy and Mr Salmond would get a monster cross border argument.
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Far more pertinent than the UK's possible ranking within the G8 or some suchlike, is its position as the state with the largest fiscal deficit of any developed country.
Recently published OECD figures show the UK with a deficit worse than even Iceland or Ireland.
The consequences of this mismanagement will be with us for years, and we will all pay, possibly by means of unseen stealth or inflation.
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On the voter apathy, it should be a message to all parties that they need to start hammering doors if they want the votes.
As I mentioned in the last topic, party workers who are at polling stations must engage with all voters coming in. The SNP and Labour both lost a potential voter on Thursday which was snapped up by the Conservatives, who made the effort to quickly speak to the voter.
Politics needs to return to grass roots. I personally like it when a party worker knocks on the door. I might not agree with their policies but if they have the opportunity to sell them, rather than relying on media distortion.
In traditional Labour areas that is not an easy task. But the only way you get the message out is through activity. Anyone who has worked in sales understands this. You might only get a hit rate of 10%. But that is 10% that your opponents have failed to get.
On the Commonwealth Games cost increases, I see Alex is already shouting at London for the 150m lottery money. Fair enough, but he's back to his "wisnae me miss" argument. Has he ever considered a different approach?
***runs for cover***
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44. Neil_Small147
"I see Alex is already shouting at London for the 150m lottery money. Fair enough, but he's back to his "wisnae me miss" argument. Has he ever considered a different approach?
***runs for cover***"
Ok, are you saying he shouldn't shout for what I believe is Scotland's money?
What other different approach SHOULD he take? Do you have one?
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44. Neil_Small147
"On the voter apathy, it should be a message to all parties that they need to start hammering doors if they want the votes."
I meant to mention, you might be right here. I'm not sure what all went wrong in Glasgow NE. Obviously, something did. Were there simply not enough boots on the ground? I'm a bit skeptical to tell you the truth, but that could be it.
I think part of the problem *might* have been (although I personally like David Kerr and was impressed by him) that he was the wrong candidate for that particular constituency. He wasn't exactly the first choice candidate.
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Salmond does amaze me. Here he is back on the front foot.
Why, in the last 2 days he has:
Bailed out Glasgow's Commonwealth Games.
Rewritten the referendum question and sent Tavish in to a huge panic.
Addressed a conference of Europe's finance chiefs. A role which he is well qualified for.
Compare this with the train wreck of Brown's premiership and the certain arrival of Dave. Where is Brown's legacy ? Oh, yes, he's given us Willie Bain.
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#34 gedguy2
I believe responsibility regarding tendering is held by the Olympic Delivery Authority.
http://www.london2012.com/about/the-people-delivering-the-games/the-olympic-delivery-authority/index.php
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47. govanite
"Bailed out Glasgow's Commonwealth Games."
The Olympics, of course, aren't charged to the London/England budget. They are deemed to be of UK significance, so the cost is shared by everyone from Shetland to Cornwall. The Commonwealth Games are only a wee local event so we have to pay for that ourselves.
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45. At 7:08pm on 16 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
Nothing wrong with him trying to get the money. The problem is he is always shouting. It loses its effectiveness after a while.
47. At 7:17pm on 16 Nov 2009, govanite:
Salmond had no choice but to bail out the games. And the Scottish Government (both under Labour and SNP) had joint responsibility with Glasgow City Council to fund the games in line with the proposal which won Glasgow the games. So he's not really done something spectacular here. And it is the TAXPAYER who has bailed out the games. And we are already bailing out the Olympics.
46. At 7:11pm on 16 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
David Kerr was not first rate. An older, rougher candidate might have been more successful. And his birth place issue was a fault of his own making. The SNP strategy people and candidate selection committee (??) need to really check everything about a candidate before choosing them. Labour are masters of digging the dirt. Kerr is damaged goods and he cannot possibly be put into anything less than a swing seat.
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#41 JRMacClure
"Ok, none of the people posting at the moment (as far as I know) are Tories or at least admit to such"
You're right that they're thin on the ground since deanthetory has largely deserted us for his blogspot, but they're not quite extinct. Our old chum Reluctant-Expat [first post 02 May 2008 on Brian's appositely named Making new friends thread] is a self-confessed Tory, as he makes clear in this post on Brian's Will he do it? thread although whether he's a Scottish one isn't so clear. See this post on Justin Webb's Time to say goodbye thread.
BTW, he's not to be confused with Reluctant_Expat who seems to share his views but has to date made less than a dozen posts compared to Reluctant-Expat's 1,000+
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49. oldnat
"The Olympics, of course, aren't charged to the London/England budget. They are deemed to be of UK significance, so the cost is shared by everyone from Shetland to Cornwall. The Commonwealth Games are only a wee local event so we have to pay for that ourselves."
Hmmmm. So the Commonwealth is only in Scotland? Funny, that. *scratches head*
Not sure how much benefit people in Shetland or Cornwall are getting from the Olympics, but I guess that's another question.
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Neil_Small147:
#50.
Ah, I see your suggesting that First Minster Salmond should begin, whispering at times when the British Government rips off Scotland!
That's a total non-starter, surely we should listen to what actually is said instead of how it's said?
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51. Brownedov
"Our old chum Reluctant-Expat [first post 02 May 2008 on Brian's appositely named Making new friends thread] is a self-confessed Tory"
Oh, any Tory will do (or non-Tory for that matter) who will explain how the Tories plan to save the UK economy.
I really would like to see the UK economy NOT go the rest of the way down the toilet.
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Just to be clear - I'm in favour of the Games being in Glasgow - I'm just pointing out that Salmond is spending money in my home town and not ripping it off as the deceitful Labour party claim.
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JRMacClure:
#54.
"I really would like to see the UK economy NOT go the rest of the way down the toilet."
I would, I suspect many others won't mind neither. British failure can be used as reason why Scotland can be independent, or at least shoot down reasons as to why being apart of the United Kingdom is good for Scotland.
Besides what have we to loose?
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You just get that sinking feeling when you here the FM speak now!
The head is nodding the finger wagging and the voice is louder.
If the FM and his team cant handle the games, then by all means pass them on the city of Glasgow council to run the show before this turns into a first class Scottish disaster.
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50. Neil_Small147
"The problem is he is always shouting. It loses its effectiveness after a while."
Listen again. He rarely shouts except occasionally in the FMQ when he is forced to over (I believe) Foulkes. Salmond is quite capable of making himself heard and doesn't need to shout. The problem is your dislike of Salmond, not anything he is actually doing. Quite a few people dislike him, but even more people LIKE him. So there ya go. =)
An older, rougher candidate might have been more successful....
I doubt that Kerr is particularly damaged. If Foulkes can get elected... What does THAT say?
However, I agree that he wasn't an ideal choice for GNE and I think it was part of the problem, but again, that wasn't the SNP first choice. I don't know about candidate vetting in your part of the world. I see a lot of parties having problems with it. Whether the SNP is weaker than most on that, I really don't know. It's possible and something that the SNP should no doubt look into.
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50. Neil_Small147
"Salmond had no choice but to bail out the games. "
Neil you need to get past the argument that whenever the SNP does something good, they were FORCED to but when something bad happens it was their fault. It is a bit silly.
Of course, he didn't HAVE to bail out the CG any more than he had to continue the funding of GARL. He didn't remember.
I think this should have been announced sooner and I suspect the announcement of the postponement of GARL COULD have been postponed. Dirty politics? Somewhat. But look what they're fighting.
The SNP needs to look to WINNING.
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57. derekbarker
"You just get that sinking feeling when you here the FM speak now!
The head is nodding the finger wagging and the voice is louder.
If the FM and his team cant handle the games, then by all means pass them on the city of Glasgow council to run the show before this turns into a first class Scottish disaster.
"
Oh, dearie me. More Scottish cringe.
Poor Derek. As far as putting down without doubt the best debater in the UK (VERY widely admitted), it just makes you look a bit sillier than usual.
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56. Thomas_Porter
"British failure can be used as reason why Scotland can be independent"
That's true, Thomas, but a lot of people will be hurt along the way. I do fear that it IS the argument that will end up winning the day for independence.
The UK no longer offers Scotland ANY financial benefit. On the contrary. It only sucks up more and more resources that could go to the Scottish people. The only reason Scots still argue for the union seems to be habit and centuries of being told they are supported by England.
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#54 JRMacClure
"I really would like to see the UK economy NOT go the rest of the way down the toilet."
So, I'm sure would Cameron, and I don't even believe that Duff Gordon did it deliberately - suspecting he simply had insufficient nous to comprehend what he was doing.
Unfortunately, though, it's not sufficiently important to any politician to come ahead of personal ratings.
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#60
For godsake JR! Salmond was delighted to gain the common-wealth games, he also said he would honour the full programme that Scotland put forward as it's bid.(GARL)
It's becoming a real gag of the week situation with this admin, what is it doing with the Scottish budget and what other programmes will Salmond run away from.
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A really good youtube link to an interview with Sir Jackie Stewart on Moridura.
Derek, did I say he wasn't happy about the CG? That doesn't make the rest of your comments even make sense. Salmond "runs away from programmes" by bailing out the CG? No. He runs away by being a keynote speaker at at Euro Finance Week in Frankfurt this week? No. Come up with some legitimate criticisms instead of Labour soundbites.
And if you can find the cash for GARL (maybe have Gordon Brown print a little extra), I suspect Mr Salmond will be happy to put it back in the budget. Maybe if your lot hadn't FORCED Edinburgh Trams through the money would have been there... but we don't want to mention that, do we? ;-)
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62. Brownedov
"I don't even believe that Duff Gordon did it deliberately - suspecting he simply had insufficient nous to comprehend what he was doing."
I suspect you're right that he had NO clue what he was doing and didn't intend to put the UK into one of history's worst recessions (although one MIGHT question why the "D" word is not being applied).
I'm sad to think that this might be the vehicle that pushes Scottish independence rather than that it is a nation that is capable of running its own affairs, doing things right, and cleaning up the mess if it does things wrong.
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JR, having the loudest voice is not a qualification for the best debater
and can I remind you that your best debater got it wrong with his "YES WE CAN" Glenrothes election and his "thunderous" Glasgow NE election.
If Mr Salmond has the Colgate ring of confidence, then when will he put a sparkle into Scotland's grim face after two years of the SNP.
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#64
JR, A keynote speaker at the Euro finance talks?.
And will the keynote speaker put another option on his growing list for his 9milllion pound referendum, namely the single currency?
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Online Ed Here
Shame my comment at 38 was moderated, it contained nothing controversial merely an acknowledgement of the civil nature of northhighlanders post at #35 with an explanation from myself that I am too busy to get involved in online debates.
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Online Ed Here
I did suggest that northhighlander might like to contribute to Newsnet Scotland at some point in order to present a non nationalist perspective on things.
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#57 derekbarker
The last thing the City of Glasgow Council did right was the water supply from Loch Lomond. Recent successes have included the Red Road flats and in fact the total disaster area that is Glasgow North East. How could they take a thriving community of Springburn and turn it into a dump? And you want them to run the Games? I'd rather Tommy Sheridan than that bunch of crypto-Tories and their NuLab pals.
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49. oldnat
Surely this is a wee event we volunteered to host. We decided to bid, we decided what the budget was to be. Now we want someone else to pay! A recurring theme methinks.
Surely the questions being asked should relate to the management of the project now? What assurance have we that the cost is not going to overrun further?
Surely just handing over more taxpayers money is not the right answer?
More central belt ego projects, which will have no benefit to the rest of Scotland.
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67. derekbarker
"JR, A keynote speaker at the Euro finance talks?.
And will the keynote speaker put another option on his growing list for his 9milllion pound referendum, namely the single currency? "
Do you follow the news at all? The SNP has long said that they prefer the Euro but will put it up for (*gasp*) a vote.
I know that Gray et al will find ANY excuse for not doing that. How long is it that Scotland can't have a referendum because of the recession? Another three hundred and two years until the people of Scotland are given a voice?
As far your previous post, I won't bother with rather silly Labour soundbites. The Colgate thing made Iain Gray a laughingstock--yet again.
By the way, don't you know how to type £? That's a bit strange for a Scot.
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#70
Handclapping, you might have a decent point but do you really want to give the games to Nigeria because Salmond's team cant quite budget properly?.
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#72 JR
" Do you follow the news at all? The SNP has long said that they prefer the Euro but will put it up for (*gasp*) a vote."
Oh! a second referendum and another 9million, 18 million for two questions? good freakonomics JR?.
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71. northhighlander
"ego projects"
As to that for both the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games, I agree. I detest the money poured into the "Elite Athlete" programme - whether these are UK or Scottish athletes. My point was simply that such events should both be funded in the same way (since we're stuck with them).
Such events in London and Glasgow won't benefit Caithness or Cornwall at all, but the Cornish aren't being charged for the Commonwealth Games - while you have to pay for both. There is a Union dividend, but it doesn't work to the benefit of many outside London.
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By the way, The Herald, once they got past their obligatory anti-SNP headline, explained pretty clearly the problems with cost over-runs for the Commonwealth Games--nothing even to compare to the ones at the Olympics which I'm sure Derek would LOVE to find some way to blame on Alex Salmond. I notice Derek isn't yelling that Gordon Brown isn't at fault for that. (Wonder why that is)
The over-runs have nothing to do with the SNP or Salmond.
There are concerns the Games’ costs could follow the same pattern as those for the 2012 London Olympics, which have increased from the original estimate of £2.4 billion to £9.3 billion.
A source close to the Glasgow 2014 organisers said: “The core problem is we are not going to get as much from broadcasting as we hoped.
“The costs of providing high-definition TV and the red button service for viewers are also major factors.”
The BBC is predicted to be the only broadcaster bidding to cover the event, but is unlikely to pay as much as it did for the 2002 Commonwealth Games in Manchester.
Salmond bails out Commonwealth Games
These types of events always end up running over-cost, it seems but hopefully bring in enough to the local economy to make up the cost, as did Homecoming, for example.
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74. derekbarker
Maybe you should cancel the general election because it will also cost money. So would an election on (*snickers wildly*) election reform.
It would be cheaper to skip democracy altogether. That SEEMS to be something that would suit Labour.
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Salmond is a good debater, but not the best by a long shot.
The top spot has to go to George Galloway. Can't stand the man but by god he can destroy almost anyone put in front of him.
59. At 8:32pm on 16 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
Eh? Trawl back through my posts. I'm very supportive of the SNP on health issues (apart from free prescriptions for all). No other party has managed to achieve real results in the NHS.
I don't agree with all this money being spent on sporting events, and most certainly not the disgraceful amount being used in London.
Sport nowadays is totally commercial. Olympics and Commonwealth Games are not truly amateur.
Glasgow is lucky in that most of the venues are already in place, compared to London having to bascially rebuild a borough.
But according to the media a large chunk of this money is being spent towards HD television coverage, and also to allow someone in the middle of nowhere to watch highlights. And it appears the BBC will be getting a fair portion as well. Perhaps if the BBC did not pay such vastly inflated salaries they could afford the coverage.
The main beneficiaries of both London and Glasgow?
Hoteliers, taxis and fast food outlets.
Transport in Glasgow is going to be pure hell. I work in the city centre and its bad enough when there is an event on at Hampden. That is one day, not two weeks.
OK, the money coming in is good for the economy, but only for this directly involved, and there is no way the initail outlay will be covered.
I'm all for sporting events, but the cost is now unjustifiable.
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74. derekbarker
"Oh! a second referendum and another 9million, 18 million for two questions? good freakonomics JR?. "
Still haven't figured out how to type a £ I see. ;-)
Oh, by the way, please justify that £18million pound figure. Have ANYTHING to back it up except more Labour lies? A single (*giggle*) fact?
Nope. Thought not.
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#73 derekbarker
Having been in Nigeria, budget ... don't make me laugh. The big difference is they control their oil revenues. 8-)
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northhighlander:
#71.
"Surely this is a wee event we volunteered to host. We decided to bid, we decided what the budget was to be. Now we want someone else to pay! A recurring theme methinks."
Your missing the point, completely.
The London Olympics is considered in the interests of the entire United Kingdom. However the regeneration of the East End of London is not directly benefiting the United Kingdom, it's benefiting the people of the East End of London. Therefore under the Bernett Formula, is Scotland not entitled to her fair share of funding, at least?
or is this simply another anti-nationalist agenda that you usually preach day to day? Put down any matter raised by nationalists because it came from nationalists does appear to be the unionists grand plan so far!
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Can someone just clarify this for me as it comes coming up - correct me if I'm wrong.
GARL is still ongoing, there will be a rail link. A 1.2 mile spur has been cancelled, but work continues on the main line. Yes/No?
Transport Scotland's garl page
Am I missing something?
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#77 JR
Are you constantly on your vanity trip!
Cancel the GE............... ok, how long would you like the cancellation to last?.............LoL.
Come on this is to easy....as he looks in the mirror and smiles, with his white set.
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Neil_Small147:
#78.
The costs are insane, but it shows exactly what we lack as a country. It's quite embarressing that we have to actually build from scratch certain activities.
If everyone in the United Kingdom took up two different sports, this country would be alot better.
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#80
Handclapping "INSANIA" now! the oil will pay for the games? what part of the uncounted 4.5 Bn £££££££££££££££ will that be handclapping? and dont phone a friend?.
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78. Neil_Small147
"I don't agree with all this money being spent on sporting events, and most certainly not the disgraceful amount being used in London.
Sport nowadays is totally commercial. Olympics and Commonwealth Games are not truly amateur.
Glasgow is lucky in that most of the venues are already in place, compared to London having to bascially rebuild a borough.
But according to the media a large chunk of this money is being spent towards HD television coverage, and also to allow someone in the middle of nowhere to watch highlights. And it appears the BBC will be getting a fair portion as well. Perhaps if the BBC did not pay such vastly inflated salaries they could afford the coverage.
The main beneficiaries of both London and Glasgow?
Hoteliers, taxis and fast food outlets.
Transport in Glasgow is going to be pure hell. I work in the city centre and its bad enough when there is an event on at Hampden. That is one day, not two weeks.
OK, the money coming in is good for the economy, but only for this directly involved, and there is no way the initail outlay will be covered.
I'm all for sporting events, but the cost is now unjustifiable."
I pretty much agree with everything you said, Neil. I dislike the whole commercial Olympics, etc. bruhaha.
I posted some quotes about the reasons for the rising costs that agree with your comments. I think all you can hope is that the benefits end up outweighing the costs, even though it will certainly be local, as the benefits of the Olympics will be for London.
Still, some will go in the national pot as tax revenue.
I'm not arguing FOR such events but since it is going to happen, I am just saying people need to be realistic about what is happening. Alex Salmond most definitely did NOT raise the costs.
And remember, it was Jack McConnell, with the support of the UK government that "brought" the games to Glasgow. Would Alex Salmond have done the same? Possibly but I doubt the UK government would have given up the chance to undercut the SNP by denying it to them--maybe a benefit of being hated by Labour.
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"Queen’s Speech will promise new tax-raising powers for Holyrood"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6919355.ece
"However, with the Parliament at Westminster having only about 70 sitting days before a general election must be called, it will be impossible for the present Government to amend the Scotland Act and put the detailed new powers on the statute book before going to the country. "
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#82 mrb
You are right, it is only the spur into the airport that has been cancelled. All you are missing is that the SNP failed to put this accross in GNE.
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82. mrbfaethedee
The improvements to the rail system go ahead. The short spur to the airport has been cancelled. Incidentally, it was nothing to do with Glasgow. The airport and the spur line are in Renfrew.
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83. derekbarker
"Are you constantly on your vanity trip!
Cancel the GE."
You're the one who's going on about OMG! Elections cost money! Mustn't have that! No doubt that's why that referendum on the EU--never happened. Right? And why the one on election reform--WILL never happen. Right? And why Scots shouldn't vote on their future.
So might as well cancel the GE.
And by the way where ARE those facts backing up an £18million cost? Hmmmmm?
Oh, and you do have a UK keyboard don't you? You know... the one with the pound symbol on it.... =)
Yes, this is MUCH too easy. Please make it a bit harder, Derek. I'm sure if you really, really try you can come up with something that isn't an old recycled Labour soundbite.
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#85 derekbarker
Sorry, you totally lost me there and I don't have your phone number so I can't phone a friend. (I'm guessing it's something to do with a TV program.) 8-)
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87. oldnat
""Queen’s Speech will promise new tax-raising powers for Holyrood"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6919355.ece
"However, with the Parliament at Westminster having only about 70 sitting days before a general election must be called, it will be impossible for the present Government to amend the Scotland Act and put the detailed new powers on the statute book before going to the country. "
"
Trying to undercut the SNP at an election, I'd say. Otherwise, under the circumstances meaningless, especially since it looks like David Cameron is dead set against additional powers for Scotland.
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88. handclapping
"All you are missing is that the SNP failed to put this accross in GNE."
Yes, disappointing. I'm not an activist or party member, so I don't know what story lies behind the campaign tactics.
My hope is that they do learn the right lessons from it.
Re: GARL, i'm just sick hearing people bitch about it like the whole thing ceased to exist.
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89. oldnat
"Incidentally, it was nothing to do with Glasgow. The airport and the spur line are in Renfrew."
Nothing like crying over someone else's spilt milk, eh?
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#90
For crying out loud MacClure! stop flip/flopping. Even the most basic of political dabblers know not to move the goal posts.
Just how much will your multiple referenda cost Scotland?
Look! you can 5 life lines to answer that one!.....LoL big smiles with the pearls.
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#91
Handclapping! I'm guessing! your guessing quite alot nowadays...LoL
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95. derekbarker
"Just how much will your multiple referenda cost Scotland?"
How much will not having the referendums cost Scotland?
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95. derekbarker
"Just how much will your multiple referenda cost Scotland?"
Don't want to TOUCH the cost of UK wide referendums, I see. What? No facts again, Derek? If one little referendum only in Scotland would cost £9million, just how much is THAT going to cost? AND in the middle of a recession!
And while I wait on that, I guess I wait a little longer for even a TINY bit of evidence on that supposed £9million for a Scottish referendum. Even a single fact to back it up besides a sound bite of the increasingly pitiful Iain Gray.
Come on--a fact. Even one. =)
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95. derekbarker
"For crying out loud MacClure! stop flip/flopping."
I know it's inconvenient when you're called on your hypocrisy but if the UK can afford multiple referendums on every little issue: Change in the EU, have a referendum; election reform, have a referendum; join the EU, have a referendum--wait, no guess we don't want to let people decide THAT so let's NOT even though we promised one--
If they can afford that they can afford a referendum on the future of Scotland. IF they have the balls for it.
The problem is a distinct lack of balls. ;-)
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Sorry, but work calls for a while. Have fun. ;-)
I leave Derek to everyone's tender mercies.
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#100
Come on JR, any more of this nonsense and I'll be forced to MacCure you!. LoL................
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#98 JRMacClure
" Come on--a fact. Even one. =)"
Willie Bain 1-0 David Kerr..........LoL that's a fact! LoL......
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Brian wrote: "I was particularly struck by the warning given to Holyrood by Jeremy Peat.
Mr Peat, formerly a senior economist with RBS, told Parliament's economy committee that he feared the "centre of gravity" in banking and finance would shift from Edinburgh to London."
Suggestion is that if Scotland loses banking and finance it will be bad for the country.
Fact is that Scotland has lost political control over the country's destiny, time to get it back!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
An interesting look at the recent by-election and a good reminder that a single election does not a government make.
SNP Glasgow NE - Where Did It All Go Wrong?
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Online Ed Here
89. At 11:07pm on 16 Nov 2009, oldnat wrote:
82. mrbfaethedee
The improvements to the rail system go ahead. The short spur to the airport has been cancelled. Incidentally, it was nothing to do with Glasgow. The airport and the spur line are in Renfrew.
I had totally missed this aspect myself until I noticed the work going on when walking to platform 12 on Saturday when in Glasgow Central.
It actually highlights even more the untruths that underpinned the Labour Glasgow NE campaign.
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# 48 tullibardine
I was trying to find out who started the bidding for the Commonwealth Games and who awarded the contracts for that.
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37. JRMacClure
You mis my point completely, I will try to explain. Over the years the nationalist message has remained pretty constant. It is about the break up of the UK. The nationalist message has always been after independence we will be wholly Scottish, the term British disappears. Much of their rhetoric over the years of my life has been about abolishing all things British. The rhetoric over the last year has changed quite considerably.
As to Willie Bain, Nationalist sources spun the story to the press and tried very hard to make an issue of it.
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108. northhighlander
The break up of the UK is of course the constant message of the nationalists. I will take your word for people wanting the word British to disappear although that's never the message I got from my many nationalist friends. Most of them don't consider themselves British, but that doesn't mean they have any hatred for all things British.
Willie Bain was the one who claimed to be "local" in his campaign. Since HE raised the issue, someone pointing out that he didn't really live in Glasgow seems pretty reasonable to me. However, I never saw David Kerr (or Alex Salmond) bring that issue up even once. I'm not sure that he shouldn't have. If you don't see it that way, that's just something we won't agree on.
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108. northhighlander
"The rhetoric over the last year has changed quite considerably."
I do think that since becoming the goverment of Scotland, there has been something that you might call a maturing process (although I'm not sure that's a good way of putting it) for the SNP and nationalists. For the first time, being the Scottish government and feeling as though there might actually be a chance of reaching the goal they've fought for for so long has meant looking at the practicalities more than they have in the past. Things like would how would an independent Scotland relate to the rest of this island, to Europe and the rest of the world are coming much more into focus. So I can see your point that the rhetoric is changing and evolving. What I don't understand is why you think this is a bad thing.
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#110 JR
" I do think that since becoming the goverment of Scotland, there has been something that you might call a maturing process"
Blessed is the cheese maker for she shall make all things cheesy.
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You know, the amount of prejudice in "British" society against Scots has shocked me for years. I remember being the first time, as a student, I was introduced to some of the work of Samuel Johnson and my horror at his hatred of Scots. This was brought home to me in traveling in England and Scotland, where you may be aware that I've spent some time.
As an American, I expected racism and prejudice in my own country. I have been active for most of my life in trying to end it. I was shocked to discover the forms that it takes in yours.
The blatant prejudice and hatred reminds me very much of my obsrevations of racism in my own country. Openly expressed insults that sound quite racist in nature, for example, are quite common. So are comments about Scottish laziness, greed, etc. You wouldn't believe how close these are to the way blacks in the US have been referred to over the centuries.
The reaction to this from Scots has been two-fold and similar to the reaction of blacks in my own country.
One is the Scottish cringe--the belief of Scots in their own inferiority and the inferiority of anything Scottish in comparison to anything English or British. The other is a deep-seated anger and resentment.
So of course, one reaction was a reaction against "Britishness". Many people do feel that you can't and shouldn't be both British and Scottish since that might mean accepting Scottish inferiority. However, when people no longer feel that being Scottish IS inferior that makes being both no longer a danger.
There are, as well, a lot of people who feel like they are both, even though they consider themselves Scottish first. After all, even with independence, the history of Scotland as part of the British Empire isn't going to disappear. And at least parts of that history are something that Scots can be proud of.
Oh, dear. I don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing, but those are the observations of an outsider. I sometimes feel that Scots are so USED to the way they're referred to that they don't know how shocking it can be to an outsider.
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111. derekbarker
And there are the many blacks in the US who tried as much as possible to be white--Uncle Toms. There are a lot of Scots like that and that also has to do with the resentment toward Scots who refer to themselves as British. As Scots are more powerful in their own nation, that also can disappear, one hopes. Both the denial of one's Scottishness and the resentment and anger toward Scots who are viewed as having sided with the English and become more British than Scottish. It's an important process that is still happening from my observation.
And, of course, there is the fierce desire on the part of some Scots to put down any Scots (or anyone else) who tries to bring and end to the part of society they've been struggling so hard to become part of and have come to identify with. If power no longer comes from seeming English--what a waste to people who have tried to get rid of their accent and in effect become English.
Because another truth is that for many -- British is really a synonym for English.
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You have to admire the Irish for standing up and being counted. If only....!
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112. JRMacClure
"those are the observations of an outsider."
And all the better for it!
"O wad some Power" etc
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What will the Tories do to get us out of the recession? Actually, quite a number of us would quite like to see Labour win the next election with a majority of under 10. The reason is rather simple, Labour absolutely do not want to win the election because they will have to have an emergency budget within one month of taking office which will have to be the most savage in history.
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44. At 7:02pm on 16 Nov 2009, Neil_Small147 wrote:
On the voter apathy, it should be a message to all parties that they need to start hammering doors if they want the votes."
Nothing to do with knocking on doors, I believe.
Expenses! War. Negativity. Also the growing realisation that it matters not a jot who is holding the reigns. There all buckled, so what's the point? Give us a leader who is there for the people and not him/herself. Give us a leader who will think twice before ordering a prime aberdeen angus fillet mignon with blue cheese sauce with a bottle of moet at the expense of an OAP that can't even heat the house. I thought that that was what I was voting for, I was wrong.
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#112 & #113.
An excellent analysis JR.
Much progress has been made in this island against racism and prejudice against minority groups in the last 20 or so years.However if there's one type of racism that the media and race relations industry are happy to ignore then it's a sneaky racism against Scots.
There was an edition of Nicky Campbell's BBC Sunday morning discussion show last year which posed the question 'Are Scots racist against the English' with no attempt to acknowledge that the problem might be a two way street.To her credit panellist Kaye Adams,who even though a unionist,went to some effort to point this out,citing her experiences at university in England where Scots students were often referred to as FISBs in the student union bar.(Fu#&ing Ignorant Scottish Bast#%rds).
My point is not at all that English people are more prone to being racist than Scots.I don't believe they are.But I do have reason to believe that the British media are very happy to play tricks like the one above while race relations folk are equally happy to look the other way.
Of course the Scottish Cringe has long been fed in a very sly way by first music hall,film and finally TV encouraging Scots to make themselves look silly.Harry Lauder being the template.
A lot of TV people can hardly interview a Scot without some patronising remark about being a braveheart or getting Scots to don outsize tartan bunnets.All just good fun haha don't be so touchy.This of course gives the subliminal message that Scots should be a bit embarrassed to be Scottish which helps to drive the self-anglicizing you talked about JR.
As you said,the more politcal power there is in Scotland then the more any resentment against denial of Scottishness can disappear.The Scots and the English have a lot of history of working well together and post independence that can continue on a firmer footing.
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Sorry, had to break off suddenly as something came up. I must confess that I found Forteanjo's comment that 'your vote has consequences' to be very persuasive and it struck me that your not voting has even more drastic consequences, especially for you. In that respect this may be the most important GE in 50 years.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8364027.stm
So no growth in Scotland thanks to Gordon's policies. The huge public sector could also suffer as Gordon's funding cuts bite in Scotland forcing cost savings on the SNP Govt.
The SNP Govt has of course two things to do. Firstly it has to try to manage the economy sensibly in the face of Labour's cuts and secondly it has to keep countering Labour's claims that cuts such as GARL are the SNP's fault and not Gordon Brown's.
Labour doesn't really appear to have any conscience when it comes to the economic damage they've caused on both sides of the border. The SNP need to use that to humiliate and isolate Murphy and co.
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I have just come across an interesting article and makes a very good reason why we did not have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. On 29th November the EU will pass into law, a law allowing all (personal and company) bank account details to be given to the US Government allegedly to prevent "Terrorism". The way this will work is that any charities giving money to (say) the Palestinians will be guilty of aiding "terrorism" (against Israel). Any person donating to these charities could also be charged with aiding a "terrorist" organisation and using the extradition laws signed by Tony B lair will result in a indeterminate prison sentence in a US jail. You have been warned ....
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#112 & #113.
Excellent analysis JR.
Looks like my #118 on the subject might not be allowed.I think it's because I hit the BBC below the belt in that one.
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"I don't often cheer on the opposing parties to vote down the SNP but, on this issue, I have to admit that's what I am doing."
http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2009/11/go-forth-and-multiply.html
I've come to the conclusion that I agree with that.
It doesn't matter how we got into an era of steep financial cuts, but we're there.
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Isn't it funny how the "arc of insolvency" has lost traction as we come to realise just how far down the Swannee Global has sold us. Just to add to his come-upance how about an arc of honesty based on the Corruption Index just published; Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Ireland. All ahead of the UK, can we still afford this Union?
Too big to care, too wee to count.
So rich as to afford wars, too poor to pay for them.
So clever to make banking the national saviour, so stupid as to believe their own cooked books
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123 Oldnat
Hmm.
In this current economic climate I would lean towards extending the life of the current bridge as long as it can meet the capacity it was originally designed for. This should be an engineering decision/recommendation not a political one.
On the politics side and infact the whole reality of the issue for me is that as a region and governed as a region Scotland simply cannot adequately finance large infrastructure projects IN ANY ECONOMIC CLIMATE. Probably explains why we have not had large infra projects since decades and no motorways. At the UK level there is no, nor has there been, a budget, process or desire to fund a large infrastructure project in Scotland. Bar none.
This is a major issue in a recession where the Uk should be funding infra to boost Scotlands economy but is a major issue at all other times too:
Financially Scotland only has a fixed buget and this is meant for general management in devolved areas only.
Financially Scotland has no audited accounts that tell us our actual income and expenditure. This is a situation that must end but would only happen within the UK with fiscal autonomy which is not on the cards.
It is therefore also impossible to really make a solid case to the UK for financial investment or infrastructure investment in Scotland.
The UK milks this for all its worth and constantly tell us they are a benefactor and that we already get more than we should, plus we should just be happy with what we get without one iota of oversight or verifiable accounting at national level. All the emphasis is what we get in UK grant and ZERO data on what we are really putting into the UK.
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125. EphemeralDeception
Agreed.
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#125 EphemeralDeception
"The UK milks this for all its worth and constantly tell us they are a benefactor and that we already get more than we should, plus we should just be happy with what we get without one iota of oversight or verifiable accounting at national level."
Quite so. It is no surprise that HM Treasury's Whole of Government Accounts page has no meaningful updates since 2008 and still tells us that: "Whole of Government Accounts (WGA) are full accruals based accounts covering the whole public sector to be audited by the National Audit Office ... Budget 2008 announced the Government's intention that WGA will be published for the first time for the 2009-10 financial year."
These might just give some meaningful, verifiable information and have been promised since NuLab's '97 manifesto with the timing slipping back, year on year, to just beyond the next general election. Even if they are ever published there will, of course, still be questions about the non-independence of the National Audit Office. The 2009-10 financial year, of course, doesn't end until April, so there is no question of them being available before the general election and whether the "offical" or the "provo" unionist Tweedles "win" it expect an announcement of their indefinite delay on cost grounds in the emergency budget that's bound quickly to follow the general election.
I agree that full fiscal autonomy is an essential to end this charade.
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The dichotomy of a Westminster government and a Scottish one with different political colours is the "never ending story" and isn't sustainable. At the moment its Labour and SNP. In the future it could be SNP and Tories or Labour and Tories. Typified at the moment by the dispute over financing the new bridge or where the British-Irish Council HQ will be located, with a new problem coming over the horizon regularly.
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123. oldnat
""I don't often cheer on the opposing parties to vote down the SNP but, on this issue, I have to admit that's what I am doing."
"
I have yet to see a political party that didn't make mistakes. The bridge could be one. I do think there may be other sides of the question, keeping in mind that I live in a city with FIVE bridges. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WillametteRvrPano_edit.jpg
I don't think you can reasonably lump major infrastructure improvements in with projects like the Commonwealth Games. While it has to be in part an engineering question, it is also important to consider transportation needs. Does the current bridge serve the transportation needs?
That question can't be answered by only looking at the engineering questions. And the question isn't only does it meet the capacity that it was designed for, but does it meet the capacity needs of the current transportation situation and in the near future?
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110. JRMacClure
I don't say the rhetoric change is a bad thing, from my posts elsewhere on here you will see I make the point continuously that instead of dividing the population of Scotland the SNP need to unite the nation by selling the benefits of Independence. Only when a consensus for change is built will it happen. If GNE and Glenrothes don't want it it won't happen.
However the attempts at providing some vision on issues post independence to date just makes the idea less attractive to me. The broadcasting and defence issues were not handled well.
I am not inherently opposed to independence I just need a convincing argument why I would be better dictated to by Edinburgh rather than London. Honestly in Caithness there is little evidence of any difference. Neither really gives a stuff about anything North of Perth.
I would like some economic vision, a way we can work and grow our way out of the current mess. Some idea of how we can regain the work ethic and become a modern economy that has earned its wealth. A vision on how we can carveout our place in the world. that is totally lacking, how Independence would solve the most basic simple fundamental problem we face.
Also the rest of the UK are not Anti-Scottish nor do they hate Scots. there is no huge body of anti-Scottish sentiment in the rest of the UK.
In my daily life I travel all over the UK, I don't suffer discrimination or prejudice. Most English people are exactly the same as us, have the same hopes, fears and dislikes. There are some people with objectionable opinions but these are in every Society around the World.
In many ways we share a lot with the rest of the UK, Wales and NI have strong links to Scotland and don't hate us either. Most English reaction to Devolution was "fine if you want it, why would anyone want more politicians?" They don't generally want rid of us and all things Scottish well apart from maybe the deep fried Mars bar.
This is an age old, very worn and very tired Nationalist argument that tries to paint Scots as inferior beings in the UK as a motivation for independence. It is rubbish. Keeping repeating something doesn't make it true no matter how much you want it to be true.
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# 108 northhighlander
You would have a point that I would be happy to back up if it wasn't for one little factoid; the media in Scotland is Unionist controlled. Check out the SNP's plans for the future and you will see that there is a lot of policies and plans of what direction Scotland should take. The problem that we have is that these policies are not reported in the media, apart from the SNP's plans to break up with the UK. If we had a media that was in the least bit fair then this perception that the SNP always talks about independence would be shown for what it is; a unionist policy to show that the SNP has no policies or plans apart from independence. Open your eyes and have a look yourself. It is difficult to see the wood from the trees when the Unionist media is 'hell bent' on giving the least amount of honest coverage it could possibly get away with. The only reason that we kept hearing about 'glasgow being ripped off' and the 'rail link' and 'where Kerr lives' during the by election us that is what the media wanted the Scots to hear. The media didn't want to tell us about Willie Bain's 'address' or focus on his 'knife then jail' policy or take him to task on his apparant(?) party disloyalty.
Surely even you can see that the media is far too focused on anti SNP stories for the SNP to get over to the public some of the good policies that it has for the future. The only place, in the whole of the Scottish public domain, that allows those policies to be aired is on this blog, which is why I am grateful to Brian, who, if he wanted to, could destroy the only valid link that we have with the general public (or, if you want to put it another way, political geeks like us).
Maybe you can come up with some idea how we, the supporters of the SNP policies, are able to get around this media glencampbelliness? I genuinely would be interested to know the answer to this question as I don't know the answer.
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108 - "Over the years the nationalist message has remained pretty constant. It is about the break up of the UK."
Rubbish!
The nationalist message is that Scots should be like every other European or World country, free to decide their own fate and not ruled from and by another nation and country.
Breaking up UK is not on my agenda, never has been, it is merely a side effect.
You are welcome to your britishness, celebrate it!
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130. northhighlander
"This is an age old, very worn and very tired Nationalist argument that tries to paint Scots as inferior beings in the UK as a motivation for independence. It is rubbish. Keeping repeating something doesn't make it true no matter how much you want it to be true."
Let me remind you that I am giving MY OBSERVATIONS.
I suggest you go read the rantings of some of those cyberbrits who supposedly don't hate the Scots. Then tell me that again.
I have NO reason to "want it to be true". Read Samuel Johnson sometime and you will find that the hatred of the Scots goes back to the beginning of the Union and even before.
I can understand someone WANTING prejudice not to exist. Who WOULD want it to exist? But MY OBSERVATION is that it does. I have seen it time after time as almost a constant drumbeat.
I assumed that some wouldn't like my saying that. But I have seen it to be true and won't allow you to say that I'm repeating someone else's propaganda. If you don't like what I've seen, frankly, that's your problem.
The PREJUDICE exists.
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130. northhighlander
"Most English reaction to Devolution was "fine if you want it, why would anyone want more politicians?" "
Those same English who constantly whine about NOT having an English Parliament (as though that isn't what Westminster is)?
And if governing your own country is so horrible, why, pray tell, do most of the people in the world want to do so? Including, it seems, the Welsh?
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130. northhighlander
"f GNE and Glenrothes don't want it it won't happen."
Frankly, that is nonsense. Glasgow NE and Glenrothes are a TINY portion of Scotland. There WILL be portions of Scotland that will vote other than SNP. Except in a totalitarian government, no political party gets EVERYONE'S support. Saying this pretty much invalidates your argument.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
No prejudice? Ho hatred?
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-100228134.html
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=512241
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-60349252.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1347149.stm (And you'll notice the demeaning nature of the COVERAGE of this hate crime)
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/35348-student-nurse-fined-hundreds-for-assault-and-antiscottish-abuse/
A typical media representatin of Scots: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Mr_Mackay
You may find all this acceptable and normal. I don't. How often do I see Scots attacked on almost every political blog and racists epithets used? If one poses an objection, we're told that using the English equivalent of a racist slap is "all in good fun".
No, my friend, it is not.
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136. derekbarker
Just so you'll know, Derek, you just stepped over a line. I was the one who just complained about your post--not oldnat who refuses to do such on the grounds of free speech.
This is a blatant personal attack and if you think it was cute--you are seriously mistaken.
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# 133 JRMacClure
Sadly, I would have to agree with you as it has happened to me on more than one occasion. To be honest with you I hadn't looked at it from that point of view before as I had always taken that as 'banter'. However, if I had to substitute the word 'Scottish' from the equation and inserted the word 'black' then you would, sadly, be correct in your observation.
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#135JR
No political party gets EVERYONE'S support.
Hmmmm, and the SNP get much less support than others.
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North Highlander:
#130.
You are quite mistaken.
"This is an age old, very worn and very tired Nationalist argument that tries to paint Scots as inferior beings in the UK as a motivation for independence. It is rubbish. Keeping repeating something doesn't make it true no matter how much you want it to be true."
This is a dangerous opinion. I find it embarressing that your actually attempting to ignore the rise of the right in England, and rise of English nationalism we have seen in recent years.
In fact several months ago (some still argue) English posters appeared to have trouble accepting that we have Scots in the British cabinet, some feel the need to have an English Prime Minister, instead of a Scottish one.
I could go further and show examples of certain individuals south of the border explaining their feelings towards the Scots, we get too much for too little apparently.
If you feel that anti-Scottish does not exist or has not became more of an issue then your entitled to your opinion. However do not dare think to paint it as nationalist propaganda, I don't know what planet your on or what you would class as anti-Scottish comments but I certainly believe there is a rise of anti-Scottish comments especially since devolution and Tony Blair/Gordon Brown.
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JRMacClure:
#133.
Don't listen to North Highlanders comments about anti-Scottishness/prejudice attitudes.
Racism does exist in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom towards one another, it also does spike depending on events inside the United Kingdom and policies set by our Parliaments/Assemblies.
Look back to what Thatcher was Prime Minister. You will notice an anti-English attitude, for the moment we're seeing a similar stance by having Gordon Brown and Tony Blair (seen as Scots) as Prime Ministers.
I don't see why North Highlander believes things must be different thesedays.
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133. JRMacClure
My I seem to have rattled you cage a little with that post! Prejudice exists in every society. At the most basic level it easy to blame a group in your midst for the problems you face. Humans always do this, it one of our greatest failings.
However these are a minority in England, a small minority. They may be vocal, but then so are other extremist groups like the BNP, the EDL, radical Muslims etc. None represent a majority of opinion in any part of the UK.
Your own country is the same, anti-semitic groups still exist, I could go on and on.
There are also a number of Scots who hate the English and don't hide it at all. They like to blame them for all Scottish ills, but they are definitely in a small minority. Thankfully.
So Prejudice exists has done since tie and memorial and always will. But don't try to claim that it is widespread and deep rooted against Scots in England because it is not. A plain and simple fact.
My point re GNE and Glenrothes is that these represent two different communities, one that has absolutely been failed by the party of power, Labour, over the last 75 years, still they didn't buy the message. To stupid seems to be the SNP answer.
Glenrothes was fixed apparently. My point is the sales pitch stinks and isn't going to work. But hey I don't mind if the messenger is continually shot.
But without an effort to build cohesion and consensus I am of the firm belief there will be no Independence.
Also the Welsh are quite happy being British, they are proposing a change to their devolution settlement after 10 years of trying, not wanting full Independence. Now maybe that is an idea....
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Am I alone in being unable to access the blog using internet explorer ?
I can access other BBC blogs without a hitch but I like this one as it is the most glencampbelly. At present I am using firefox.
There may good reasons for this or there may be sinister reasons. I would appreciate an explanation as there may be others unable to access this blog. You have my e-mail address.
I suspect the answer is due to the large number of labour party supporters working at BBC Labour at present.
I believe a BBC Scotlandshire licencising boycott is being mooted - as Mr Burns would say "Excellent !".
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144. astonishedII
"I suspect the answer is due to the large number of labour party supporters working at BBC Labour at present."
Not likely. BBC outsources the blogs.
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143. northhighlander
"Also the Welsh are quite happy being British, they are proposing a change to their devolution settlement after 10 years of trying, not wanting full Independence. Now maybe that is an idea...."
You were the one who said even wanting devolution was stupid, northhighlander.
No, you didn't "rattle my cage". I simply don't have time to answer all your points at once. I'm rather busy.
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North Highlander:
#143.
"My point re GNE and Glenrothes is that these represent two different communities, one that has absolutely been failed by the party of power, Labour, over the last 75 years, still they didn't buy the message. To stupid seems to be the SNP answer.
Glenrothes was fixed apparently. My point is the sales pitch stinks and isn't going to work. But hey I don't mind if the messenger is continually shot."
Grr, I will say this once. There is no poster here that represents the SNP and their members. The SNP have not accused Glasgow North East of being too stupid and neither have the SNP claimed that Glenrothes was fixed.
Your clear prejudice against the SNP is revolting, especially when you claim none exists at all! If you were balanced you would acknowledge that we post on these blogs as individuals and do not represent the party we may for the moment be supporting.
"Also the Welsh are quite happy being British, they are proposing a change to their devolution settlement after 10 years of trying, not wanting full Independence. Now maybe that is an idea...."
Do you speak for the people of Wales? If more Scots see themselves as Scots first at least, does that suggest the people of Scotland are not happy being British at all? Is this why Labour have been supportive of being Scottish and British at the same time, although I find it contradicting?
Didn't the Calman also include the comment, "To strengthen the Union..." If we were actually open to taking our constituation seriously all suggestions should be considered and a well balanced rough idea on what could happen, but despite being the 'world power' that we are, we all appear to be incapable of taking a reasonable approach.
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139. gedguy2
"Sadly, I would have to agree with you as it has happened to me on more than one occasion. To be honest with you I hadn't looked at it from that point of view before as I had always taken that as 'banter'. However, if I had to substitute the word 'Scottish' from the equation and inserted the word 'black' then you would, sadly, be correct in your observation."
Are you acquainted with the billboard of a Scot with a lifted kilt that has used as an attack on funding for Scotland? This kind of thing seems to be endemic.
If you changed that to the US and put a black person in it with say a watermelon instead, WHAT WOULD PEOPLE SAY? It would be seen as blatantly racist. Yet that was and is seen as acceptable.
I have NEVER seen it returned although I've known a few Scots who sincerely dislike the English. But as with blacks in the US, when you are met with prejudice, it will build anger and resentment that IS going to end up returned to the people who caused it. This does happen.
But unlike the prejudice toward Scots, the prejudice in Scotland is not built into the system.
I know this is a subject that you're NOT supposed to raise. I am surprised that only northhighlander has objected. I frankly expected to get attacked pretty roundly for expressing my own observations. But there ya go. It's what I've seen.
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141. Thomas_Porter
What is embarrassing is your inability to look at the world with anything other than tunnel vision.
It is however comforting that you find English Nationalism a bad thing but Scottish nationalism a good thing. Lets get one thing straight here. We have lunatics in Scotland that think all English people should be sent home. In England there are lunatics that think all Scots should be sent home. In both countries we have lunatics that think everyone of a different skin type should get sent home. The small fact that they don't understand what they mean by home doesn't bother them. They area a minority. A small minority. One we have to watch, argue against but the English don't all hate us and want to reintroduce Hadrians wall. Honestly.
Also remember the number of people who post on these Blogs is small as a percentage of the population. Don't try to represent Nick's blog as a majority opinion.
In times of strife blaming minorities always rises. In Scotland we are a tolerant people that can rise above this crap.
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137. JRMacClure
What a pathetic effort. Why do you try to present this as a widespread phenomenon if not to fuel Scottish Nationalism at the most basic level? This is a minority, an infrequent occurrence, what you post links to is a list of drunken brawls.
We do have a drink problem here in the UK, particularly in Scotland. That is what you really prove by this post.
Please don't tarnish the UK by insinuating this is widespread, it is not.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#124
Thanks to a letter from ResPublica on quirky, I am becoming quite enamoured with the idea that the "too wee, too poor and too stupid" tag is absolutely right. The only problem is that it has been directed at Scotland, when the proper subject of this epithet is the Union. Think about it. Even when we wave our Trident about, we no longer cut it in the world. We are bankrupt. We are stupid enough to have emasculated our Parliament in favour of elective dictatorship. And I'm sure you can think of your own examples where it's the Union fits the saying, not Scotland.
Too wee, too poor and too stupid ... aye, right.
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North Highlander:
#149
"It is however comforting that you find English Nationalism a bad thing but Scottish nationalism a good thing."
It's a different issue altogether. Let us look at the SNP and her policies throughout the decades and their main figures, we'll see a vast difference from then to now, so I do believe Scots nationalism is far more sensible and credible compared to the younger English nationalism which will develop into a freindlier force.
"One we have to watch, argue against but the English don't all hate us and want to reintroduce Hadrians wall. Honestly."
I have not suggested that all the English dislike the Scots. I do have an issue when certain officials and influential figures in England, speak out. That's a different matter. There are questionable individuals in our society but not all of those individuals are under educated embarressments. Some people carry weight.
"Also remember the number of people who post on these Blogs is small as a percentage of the population. Don't try to represent Nick's blog as a majority opinion."
I should be telling you this. Why do you believe the SNP represent a position based on certain nationalists on these blogs?
"In times of strife blaming minorities always rises. In Scotland we are a tolerant people that can rise above this crap."
Do you honestly believe in a world of rising population and limited resources we will always remain tolerant people? You may not believe I actually DO take notice of the outside world, but you have no idea what actually goes on in my mind.
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131. gedguy2
I agree with you up to a point. The BBC does have its shortcomings but not as bad as Greenock boy makes out. there are some on these posts that are obsessive on this issue and have no objectivity.
The party of Government sets the agenda in many ways. The SNp do have the ability to force the media to report news, they make a lot of it now. I have looked on the SNP website, there are no visions of how independence will aid another economic revolutions. If you have links to the contrary please feel free to correct me.
The media is biased against some groups in Scotland. I agree with you to a certain point. How that is corrected is not so easy. But the population aren't stupid and can make there own mind up.
I wish I had the answer but I don't
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140. derekbarker
Hmmmm, and the SNP get much less support than others.
Oh it does, does it? Funny that.
The November 9, 2009 TNS-BMRB (for The Herald--hardly pro-SNP), showed the Holyrood voting intentions to be:
Constituency
SNP - 40%
Labour - 32%
Regional
SNP - 37%
Labour - 29%
Gosh, that's a shame for how the SNP gets--less support? *ahem* Don't think so. ;-)
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137. At 6:13pm on 17 Nov 2009, JRMacClure
Wow. Looks like something is really bugging Mr. JR MacClure. That he actively hunts down trailer trash comments and sites to find prejudice. Methinks one is trying too hard to be a victim.
You, by your own admittance, are an American but are seemingly so angry and indignant. Reminds me of the plastic ‘Irish’ Americans in NYC who would comment or donate money for Republican causes (before anyone else jumps in; I'm talking of your strong indignation of victim hood).
I have served in the military for over 21 years with Irish (from the South no less), Welsh, Scots and English. Did I experience negative comments about my Scottishness? Occasionally. Did I ever make a remark about English? Yes I did. Other comments were made about Yorkshire, Scousers, Manchunians, Southern soft shandy drinking Cockneys, Geordies, Weegies, Chuchters, Welsh sheep-tenders , Irish spud eating Pikeys and it goes on.....
Dont sweat it. We have enough prejudice in Scotland to be getting on with.
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149. northhighlander
"In times of strife blaming minorities always rises. In Scotland we are a tolerant people that can rise above this crap."
I agree that Scots are tolerant people. It's one of the reasons I actually rather like them more than my own, to tell you the truth. In case you haven't noticed, I'm very fond of you lot. Although Americans can be nice as well once you get to know us. I don't know if you've ever visited us, but we normally treat visitors very well.
Heck, I even like the English although I find Scots in general to be more tolerant.
But, it is amazing how much easier it is to rise above crap when you run your own country.
I know you find the concept that people just plain want to run their OWN business and not have someone do it for them inexplicable. I find it inexplicable that you find it inexplicable. :-)
It's what turns teenagers into adults. It's what has caused people to fight for self-determination for their nations across the world over the centuries.
There is more to the conversation about independence than that. There is the fact that the UK government is doing a MISERABLE job of running the whole country and has pissed away the oil money that should have been used to improve the country. And I don't think Scots would have objected to an oil fund for the WHOLE of the UK. But where is that fund? Non-existent and the whole country is bankrupt.
But the attitude of prejudice that I SEE (whether you do or not) IS a legitimate issue and you won't convince me that it isn't. I happen to believe the evidence of my own eyes and no one is in a position to say that I shouldn't--unlike Scots who have been told for years that they should put up with abuse--because it's all in good fun.
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Hmmm - £85 million to Glasgow to cover the money the BBC are claimed to have promised and have now reneged on as the 'Commonwealth Games' are only a level two event and will be unlikely to be shown live by the BBC(unless some English person is about to win a medal). So no live terrestrial coverage then.
Wonder where the amazing part time Scot Sec 'Spud Murphy' is when you need him, is he out there rattling the BBC's cage? Nope, no sign. Surely Murphy is not going to let 'Digger Murdoch' buy the live rights for Sky and get another hammering in Digger's Sun: 'Digger Murdoch saves Glasgow Games, labouring 'Spud' has his chips'.
Makes you wonder just who is ripping off Glasgow this time ... no not Labour at Westminster, surely?
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150. northhighlander
"What a pathetic effort. Why do you try to present this as a widespread phenomenon if not to fuel Scottish Nationalism at the most basic level? "
Because YOU said it didn't exist.
It does and your denial doesn't change it. I could find a few hundred more including that infamous political billboard of a Scot with his kilt raised that has been seen ALL OVER THE WORLD!
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Oldnat @ 145 : Methinks you are too generous - What if they outsource it to Wark Media or some other similar organisation ? :)
Anyway I would be grateful if the people organising this (whether labour or not)could e-mail me with possible solutions.
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156. John
"Wow. Looks like something is really bugging Mr. JR MacClure. That he actively hunts down trailer trash comments and sites to find prejudice. Methinks one is trying too hard to be a victim.
You, by your own admittance, are an American but are seemingly so angry and indignant. Reminds me of the plastic ‘Irish’ Americans in NYC who would comment or donate money for Republican causes (before anyone else jumps in; I'm talking of your strong indignation of victim hood).
I have served in the military for over 21 years with Irish (from the South no less), Welsh, Scots and English. Did I experience negative comments about my Scottishness? Occasionally. Did I ever make a remark about English? Yes I did. Other comments were made about Yorkshire, Scousers, Manchunians, Southern soft shandy drinking Cockneys, Geordies, Weegies, Chuchters, Welsh sheep-tenders , Irish spud eating Pikeys and it goes on.....
Dont sweat it. We have enough prejudice in Scotland to be getting on with."
It's not Mr.
And yes, I have seen a few too many attacks on Scots for being Scottish. You ARE right: It bothers me. And it bothers me that this is supposed to be acceptable. It bothers me that one is NOT supposed to mention it.
No, sir. I am not a "plastic Scot". I am not a Scot at all but I am an American who spends time on your side of the pond and has seen a lot of things that one is NOT supposed to mention.
So in typical AMERICAN mode, I mentioned it. Obviously, a lot of people prefer to keep it swept under the rug.
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With the clock soon ticking up 3 months since al-Megrahi's release, Mr Gray and others are doubtless about to start a new campaign over Swinney's decision. In that context, I hope Mr Swinney will have spotted this website's new Straw's decision on Biggs 'wrong', tucked away well clear of the politics pages, where we are told that: "Chairman of the Parole Board Sir David Latham said there was no "rational reason" not to release Biggs earlier."
With Mr Biggs [freed 8 August] still alive, perhaps Mr Gray's anger should first be directed at Jack Straw.
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156. John
By the way, I didn't have to do much hunting for those links. A simple Google search turned all those up and hundreds more. If I had wanted to find that billboard image that SO bugs me, it would have taken a little longer since I'd have to find the right term for the image.
I'm sorry that the fact that I'm an American and that see quite a lot of prejudice against Scots in your society bothers you. Actually, the prejudice bothers me too, as you rightly pointed out.
It bothers me a lot.
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144. At 6:33pm on 17 Nov 2009, astonishedII wrote:
Apologies if someone has answered this.
I'm assuming you have IE8. Click on the compatibility view button at the top. I had a similar problem last week.
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At 7:40pm on 17 Nov 2009, JRMacClure
Apologies for the gender assumption there.
And I work on your side of the pond.
I have also heard Scots and English spout a lot of anti-American diatribe. Especially from those who were philosophically opposed to 'Dubya' and the wars we now find ourselves in. Perhaps you have heard some comments from people - but put it down to the odd idiot who knows nothing of the American people and simply stereotype them as ‘oil stealing war mongering Texans’ (or words to that effect). Rather than castigating it as a set of institutional norms we just need to put in context. I don’t brush it under the carpet but sweep it out the door. My life experience has been wholly different and I’m sure some other well travelled people have a similar experience.
For the record - as someone who works for a large US company and the people I associate with; I find the vast majority a pretty liberal bunch.
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165. John
No problem on the gender thing. Just clearing it up. :-)
"‘oil stealing war mongering Texans’ "
*clears throat* I'm afraid that is my exact opinion of Dubya. But then I went to University in Texas and lived in Denver when they looted Silvarado Savings. A few words about the Bushes.
I knew that my opinion would offend some who insist that the barrage of Jock, Sweatie, fried-Mars-bar eater "jokes" are all in good fun. Ask blacks where you are if black-face was "all in good fun".
It is very easy to hide prejudice as humor and it is often done. But I'll leave the subject having had my little say. You might think about it, because I really don't have an axe to grind. I'm not even, strictly speaking, pro-independece, which after all isn't my business to decide. I DO support all peoples (even some that might surprise you *ahem* Hawaii) having self-determination.
And if you don't know why I compare Scotland to Hawaii, you might want to read the history of that former nation. It is in may ways very similar. I also offend people when I point out that the US learned empire building from the best.
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#161. JRMacClure
JRMacClure please post examples of what you mean when you say ‘too many attacks on Scots for being Scottish’ For I am struggling to think of any examples from my 51 years on this earth. I am not Scottish but half Scottish and the only relevance that has is that the whole English/Scottish dialogue has been part of my life since being a baby.
I think it is insulting to the hundreds of millions of victims of racism in history to compare the present Scottish/English situation to that.
Also not see how such a view moves the independence debate on.
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167. mcjbrown
"I think it is insulting to the hundreds of millions of victims of racism in history to compare the present Scottish/English situation to that. "
See my above comments. Would you LIKE me to link to literally thousands of insults toward Scots across the blogosphere? I could but I'm not going to. I listed physical attacks on Scots above including one on a child. I could list hundreds more, but I'm not going to.
You can do a few Google searches or look for some images of Scots--mostly insulting and demeaning ones.
I think it is an insult to Scots to refuse to admit that this is a serious matter, not the other way around. But we both have a right to our opinion.
I was not TRYING to move the independence argument on. I was telling MY OBSERVATION of the situation as an American and as an outsider.
I have a question, though. How is one "half-Scottish"? In my experience, either one is or one isn't, parentage regardless. Or are you saying that Osama Saeed can't be a Scot because he doesn't have the right parentage? THAT is not a typical Scottish attitude in my experience. I hope that's not your meaning and I'll assume that it isn't, but I'm not sure what you do mean. Are you a Scot? Or English? American? Welsh? Irish? Or British?
I wouldn't ask if you hadn't brought the matter up since I consider that people here have a right to take part in the discussion whatever their nationalisty. Otherwise, I'd have to shut up, wouldn't I? =)
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157. JRMacClure
Not to be cheeky like but i live in Scotland and don't find the items you posted offensive.
there are two ways to live your life with regard to this subject, either get some perspective and have pity for those so ignorant or live your life looking to be offended and playing the Victim.
I detest the later. That is what you propose. Your efforts to link this to Independence are risible and pathetic. It does nothing to further your arguments, it just devalues them. I repeat this is not a problem in the UK.
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158. slaintemha
I didn't think it would take long. We screw up the organisation of the games and it is someone south of the borders fault.
In my commercial experience, my company only count on income when a contract has been signed. From Mr Salmond today I assume the BBC will be sued for breach of contract? Or maybe they never signed a contract, in that case this is just the usual SNP smokescreen to cover their own shortcomings.
Becoming a well worn record this one. Tedious and predictable.
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My last word, I really think that most people who spew out the insults toward Scots don't see it as prejudice--just a natural state of affairs. Just as Americans are "supposed" to be superior, in our eyes, so are... some other people. No more to say.
Leaving now because 1. I have trouble dropping a debate even when I've said all I have to say and 2. I have work I need to do.
*waves*
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169. northhighlander
"Not to be cheeky like..."
You have every right to be cheeky just as we have every right to disagree. As I said, I didn't make my posts to "further independence" but to express my dismay at what I see. And maybe there was a bit of, as oldnat pointed out:
O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us...
I'm an other. That's how I see you and I can understand that you're not best pleased. Now if I DON'T leave I won't stop. So I'm off.
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Maxwell saved the Edinburgh games many years ago, although it became unclear his motive as his finance unravelled, it would appear the Scottish Government together with Glasgow City Council ( steven purcells comments should be of interest, will he thank the anti Glasgow SNP))will require to step in, surely the UK should make a contribution to provide support to a 'home nation'
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170. northhighlander
"We screw up the organisation of the games"
Not how it happened. The assessment started in 2004 and the campaign for the Games was launched in 2005 by Jack McConnell. The Games were awarded in Nov 2007. All of this was during the economic boom.
I wasn't in favour of the Games bid then, or now, but like many things that were planned during the folly of the boom years, they have to be somehow rescued now.
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My father used to work in event and promotions years ago (ie directing the setup and running), and a lot of income for events is not available up front, but rather based on expected income from attendance, advertising and stall holders (fast food, ice cream vans etc).
The Commonwealth Games is no different, and neither is the Olympics. But the Olympics in particular has a reputation where the city that hosts it takes years to pay off the debt: Sydney I believe was an exception.
The television rights and advertising revenue has been hammered, and we have seen what has happened to the football following Sentanta's demise.
The Scottish Government and Glasgow City Council cannot walk away from the event, otherwise it would ruin any chance for future events.
The 85 million is not all for the BBC. I believe the true figure is about 12 million. What when the powers to be put forward their proposal they promised just about everything when it came to tv coverage, and as a result of expected revenue shortfall have now painted themselves into a corner.
I don't agree one bit with the disgusting cost of the Olympics in London. But neither do I agree with half a billion pounds being spent on the Commonwealth Games. It might end up costing more that the Scottish Parliament building.
Half a billion pounds? And at least 70% of the facilities are available. Where is all the money going?
Glasgow City Council, Jack McConnell and Alex Salmond have a lot to answer for.
And pray that the Kingston Bridge does not have any roadworks in 2014.
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northhighlander,
What do you think of the views of Kelvin McKenzie or David Starkey on Scotland? They both appear regularly on "serious" political programs on the BBC.
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There is a long history in these isles of the English ruling class encouraging negative portrayals of the Irish,Scots,Welsh,Cornish,East Anglians,Geordies,Brummies,Cumbrians,Yorkshire and Lancashire people and the London working classes.
It still goes on in TV today although it's almost always cloaked in humour.Worse still it encourages the above folk to play up to these grotesque national and regional caricatures and is one of the biggest elephants in the room.
I think Scots come in for quite a lot.Even the Irish are not free of its influence 8 decades after Independence.That's why you see Irish people wearing giant Leprechaun hats etc. A complete travesty of the rich cultural heritage of the Gaelic people.
For me,one of the reasons why the Monty Python team were so successful was that they touched on this public school arrogance.Namely John Cleese's bowler hatted city gent or banker and Graham Chapman's British Army General.Of course other comedians have followed them occasionally in laughing at the power elite;not that much though.
I know I've been generalising hugely and I also know that fewer of the Metropolitan Establishment of today are public school educated but the tradition is still carried on.JR is right in bringing this debate up.
It's not an independence argument as such.A staunch unionist could agree with me.
The UK is one of the most centralised democracies in the world even after devolution.The ridiculing of the Celtic nations and English regions has been a mainstay in keeping almost all the power in London.
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174. oldnat
Not sure how you come by this opinion, the budget overrun was not supposed to happen. Alec said it would be managed properly, wouldn't happen. Seems the BBC line is a bit fortunate as an excuse to me.
It always does cost more though. Another central belt ego project. The money could have been invested in grass roots sport all over Scotland. Would have been paid a far better dividend. But less photo opportunities and grandstanding.
Note also we have to have a new forth bridge at £2bn ish ( that we don't have) when we can fix the existing one for £150m ish. Also new bridge has two lanes, not three so hardly future proofed eh? Will be remarkably the same as the existing bridge. Mmm a real project or just another way of picking a fight with Westminster?
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175. Neil_Small147
Excellent questions ones that should be answered. Also re the point on the Kingston Bridge, if Burns cottage in the year of the homecoming is anything to go by the bridge will probably be closed throughout the games.
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176. snowthistle
Both are complete and utter numpties. Don't agree with a single thing they say. Why do you ask? I think most English people would think much the same actually.
They feed those who revel in the victim role.
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22. oldnat
"Sorry. RE is right. UK was 5th place in the G*, 8th place in the G20."
On UK (released cough) figures. I thought it was a change from Netherlands water to Greenwich 10x recycled water was having an immediate response to his assumption. Had to do a complete restore grr and no ethernet controller delayed the reply.
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#178 northhighlander
I am not certain that the case for the bridge has been made. If you think ahead just a little then no-one is going to be able to commute by car. The cost / availablity of petrol will see to that. A better alternative might be to look at increasing the clearances on the Inverness to Perth railway line. Why so? With the Arctic likely to be ice free, the quickest route from China is over the top and what is the first deep water port you meet? Invergordon. All those shipping boxes could be travelling South to England over that line. Has Wick even thought of that yet?
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178. northhighlander
"It always does cost more though."
It does. Hence my opposition to Labour's profligate pursuit of these projects. I'm not saying that other parties wouldn't also have pursued such projects though!
To be fair to McConnell's Government though, the Commonwealth Games were "A-listed" for broadcasting until the Davies Report decided to downgrade them to "B-status". That kind of decision is totally outwith the control of any Scottish Government under current rules.
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177. mistydougie
"The ridiculing of the Celtic nations and English regions"
Did you see Newsnight tonight? The caricature of Belgium by Paxman - indeed the whole programme - was indicative of a metropolitan arrogant view of anybody that they don't see as part of the power elite.
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123. oldnat
"I've come to the conclusion that I agree with that."
I believe that there is more than just a question on corroding cables it has to do with rhe strength of the bridge head anchor points and whether they are strong enough in the longer term.
As a passing comment there was a flyover in Ireland which had been reported as being suspect by a passing sailor, it was inspected by an expert who gave it the all clear within a few weeks a section collapsed.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
185. cynicalHighlander
"it has to do with rhe strength of the bridge head anchor points and whether they are strong enough in the longer term."
I'm open to persuasion - but I'll stick to my stance on the basis of what I've been told so far.
I've been in Shetland, Norway and Alberta and seen how an oil fund has been able to secure the infrastructure. Scots decided not to vote for that so we have to suffer the consequences until that can be reversed.
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Can I point out that my concerns about the Kingston Bridge are not a dig at the cancellation of GARL. While it would be useful, it would only be fully utilised at the start and end of the games.
The main problem is going to be Hampden. Anyone who knows the area will understand. Additional train services are put on, but the roads will be a total nightmare.
But the Games are also being held during the Glasgow Fair. Wonder if that was deliberate.
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185. At 11:40pm on 17 Nov 2009, cynicalHighlander
123. At 2:04pm on 17 Nov 2009, oldnat
Even if the bridge costs 250 million to fix, I'd rather see that.
Engineers managed to repair the Kingston Bridge in Glasgow, which included the incredible feat of LIFTING the main platform.
If they do build a new bridge, what are they going to do with the old one? And if they keep it open, there will be two bridges to maintain, and since the current Executive is against tolls, that means further expense.
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Re 182 Handclapping
Shh don't tell everyone!
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Isn't it very peculiar the resounding silence from the Scottish media on the Tornado Discovery?
Funny thing. A Google search seems to find no reporting from the MSM on this.
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131. - you say the media reports only what they want Scots to hear- absolutely. - Mr Taylor’s blog above on Frankfurt’s Euro Finance week, in which our First Minister is involved, the outcome of which thus far (to my knowledge)is not being carried by a single popular media outlet in Scotland. So, outside this blog who is aware of this event? Will it be reported in full?
As for Newsnight Scotland, (the epicentre of dour), one can positively imagine them punching the air with relish, when one of their ‘independent’ economic advisers comes up with another dose of negative stats. There are many positive stories and events out there - they are just not being reported.
The problem for the media (and it's a big'n) is that this tactic only works for a short while. It becomes counter productive. People rapidly become very fed up with constant negativity -(the words 'blasted, slammed and picking fights' begin to grate)- and they move on to seek the positive, not fake positives like 'Calman', or the nightly offerings of cats being rescued from trees. -- No, the truth will always out.
* Oops, another headline just hit the BBC 'Independence to cost firms £1b'- think I've just slipped back to the seventies- Mccrone- scare tactics abound. - Won't be fooled again.
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192. cassidy
"Oops, another headline just hit the BBC 'Independence to cost firms £1b"
Do you SUPPOSE they'll ever ask how much staying IN the union will cost?
Nah! I'm delusional.
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193 JRM. - Yup, once the 'resource' larder is totally depleted, - from another perspective altogether, I expect that very question might arise!!
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In the 70's Scotland found oil in her borders and the Scottish people have since seen no proportionate benefits... There's another resource revolution around the corner, with the full scale development clean energy - and SCOTLAND is leading the way in Europe. We can't let our resources be taken from us without just compensation to the Scottish people! Don't let history repeat itsefl!
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# 154 northhighlander
Open the pdf document here.
By the way, I think that you and JR are actually agreeing with each other but neither wants to back away from your stance. She did bring up a valid point, as you have done. :-) At the end of the day both of you, and I, don't like racism in any of the multitude of forms that it can take.
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# 195 DoaKeDoa
The problem is that, according to the UK government, it is not Scotland's oil; it belongs to the UK government and Scotland should shut up and be grateful for what it gets.
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196. gedguy2
"I think that you and JR are actually agreeing with each other"
Nuh uh. There's a rule that northhighlander and I can not agree. We made it up ages ago. ;-)
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It looks like the Westminster government is set to put forward, in the Queen's speech, a load of broken promises here.
I say 'broken promises' because Gordon Brown knows that he will not be in office next year so he can put whatever he wants into this speech knowing that none of it will become law unless the Tories decide to take that on. Another con by the Labour government. It just goes on and on and on...
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re: independence 'to cost firms £1bn'
The headline is a quote but there is no such statement. Only the BBC making it up.
Are the BBC trying to make the news or report it?
This is blatantly partial. Brian your corporation is supposed to provide us with news "Representing the UK, its nations, regions and communities;". The BBC is not here to make its own headlines or solely represent the UK Government view. Especially on Constitutional matters.
The reality is it currently costs Scottish firms over Half a billion in UK tax. With indepenedence the tax take could be higher or lower. Already small businesses have a reduced small busines rates in Scotland.
This helps business where as it is portrayed as burden by the British 'Scottish Secretary'.
On the other hand company's head-quartered in London would have to have office and tax take in Scotland instead, increasing Scotlands tax take while reducing the rump UK takings. Lets not advertise this too much eh? Actually, lets not mention this at all?
The British Bull Corporation is a disgrace to Scottish license payers. It is not fir for purpose and is regularly in breach of its charter .
Brian you are a senior figure in this establishment and are therefore part of the problem. Have you no integrity whatsoever?
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Isn't it strange that it is acceptable for Wales to get a referendum on their assembly but it isn't acceptable for the Scots to have a say in their future, HERE
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# 198 JRMacClure
I thought that you had gone and it was safe for me to talk about you ;-). Obviously not. Don't you ever sleep?
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# 197 gedguy
And i suppose they will tell us that the half of the income tax we never see and the queen doesnt want to give us, is not ours either... oh well, only one thing for it lets just stop paying half our income tax and stop drilling oil - or we could just vote SNP until we get what we deserve!
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As to the discussion that we had a couple of blogs back about the drink culture in Scotland and how to combat it. I seem to remember that Labour is against the policies of the SNP and yet the Labour party in Wales is thinking about doing the exact same policies that the SNP were trying to bring forward. Drinking culture crackdown call
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# 203 DoaKeDoa
To be fair to Her Majesty she doesn't set the tax rates or even decides how to spend it. That is down to the Westminster government.
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# 205 gedguy2
Yeah, but 'Her Majesty' could still weild her power and say no to the governmet of the day, if for example she felt Scots were being unfairly exploited... I know, would never happen - which brings me to; how pointless are the royals...? My point was in mere reference to the article in the bbc; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8364858.stm
which youve probably read. and that as long as Scots arent making the decisions for Scotland, we can rest assured they wont be the right ones for us - im sure you'll agree ;-)
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# 206 DoaKeDoa
I'm sure that nobody would want to return to the days when royalty controlled the political processes in these isles. Yes, I'm more than willing to accept that anything in the Queen's speech which refers to Scotland will be in the interest of the UK and not solely for Scotland.
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To Neil_Small147 : Thanks problem solved !
You are now officially a computer guru - please ask your employer for a significant wage rise ! :)
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202. gedguy2
"I thought that you had gone and it was safe for me to talk about you ;-). Obviously not. Don't you ever sleep?"
I sleep nearly as much as Oldnat--chronic insomniac. So it's never safe.
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#184. oldnat
I've just seen the Newsnight Belguim piece and it was truly appalling.Pure xenophobia by the BBC.Then they wonder why the BNP are making headway.The reporter seemed to think he was debunking Rumpuy by pointing out that he is a polyglot and a poet.Oh we don't want someone like that for EU President.Not when there's a good British illegal war leader in the running.
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Hi,
Should just point out that John in #151 is not me.
On the subject of rascism in Scotland, and against Scots, a lot of the stuff I have seen is on the level of a football rivalry, and fairly harmless. I have never seen anyone prejudiced against, but have heard of it. I do get annoyed when english people call me "jock" as frequently happens, or refer to "Jockland". Mainly it is the tone of the london accent that is used. The way it is used seems to be imbued with negative connotations.
Strangely though I did not feel annoyed or threatened when I was called Jocko in australia (I was strictly speaking Jocko 2, as my dad was Jocko. We were both part of a crew of a sailing boat). I suppose that was because everyone in the boat had a nickname, and given that none of them had known me previously, they opted for the most obvious nickname. Anyway there was nothing threatening or negative in the way it was said. Double standards? possibly, I am not sure. Maybe it is just that I expect negative connotations when in kent or London. I am also amazed in these times of political correctness that these sorts of stereotypes, and racial monikers are openly expressed and used in the media and on television
John
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8365130.stm
Oh dear... All that proves is that Murphy has never run a business and the CBI is a moribund and visionless organisation that has had its day.
I'd really like to know though how much Labour's economic management disasters have cost businesses and ordinary taxpayers. And I'm not just referring here to cash costs but also loss in potential - future business...... Murphy needs a reality check.
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morning ,yet another very interesting piece on Scottish Review.
the NHS In Scotland are paying just short of £3 million a year in wages to 20 people yup just 20 people.
see the full article [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] Here
sid.
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212. What's this?:
Responding to the Scotland Office paper, A Scottish government spokesman said 'official figures' showed that, in the three years to 2007-08 Scotland ran budget surplus worth almost £2.3bn, compared to a £24bn deficit for the UK.
Well, that's a big fat bundle of lies right off, isn't it! Holyrood has REALLY run a fiscal deficit of over £11bn for that period...and that doesn't include the £40-60bn spent just on bailing out a certain two banks.
The SNP have not counted nearly £14bn in expenditure in a desperate bid to spin out a 'surplus'.
In summary, the SNP's primary argument is clearly a big, fat whopper of a lie!
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I have been listening to/watching the BBC news this morning particularly the pieces on the sea level rises and the increase in global temperatures. I still can't belive that climate change and other environmental factors don't play a much bigger part in the whole independence debate. Provided that the gulf stream doesn't switch off, being in a small well resourced country with a low population density is probably not a bad place to be.
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# 212 Wee-scamp
I thought Murphys' self-proclaimed role was to be Scotland's man in the cabinet - arguing Scotlands' corner, making sure Scotland had it's fair share of the public purse, making sure that the barriers that Whitehall might erect to safeguard it's own agenda would not be used to disadvanatage the taxpayer in Scotland.
In this case, the strangely named 'Scotland Office'is in cahoots with the Treasury and HM Revenue & Customs to talk down the administration of not only an independent Scotlands' tax system but a 'fiscally autonomous' tax system.
Were HM Revenue & Customs not guilty of previously saying that they would not implement even the 3% adjustment to income tax under the present devolution settlement (when proposed by the elected governement of the day in Scotland)?
Is there not to be as part of Labour's pre-election queen's speech a commitment to introduce the Calman proposals? The Calman proposals can only be described as even more difficult to administer than the existing non-utilised, disparaged and torpedoed arrangements. This looks like Murphy sabotaging his own parties 'flagship' policy for Scotland by being in bed with Whitehall departments and compromising his own trumpeted remit of obtaining the best deal for Scotland he can from the Civil service machine.
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#214 R-E
that's a sound arguement you have there. I don't agree, therefor it's lies.
The bald truth is that the detailled figures are not available for you or me to examine, so who knows what is the truth? I am 99% certain of one thing though: the figures bandied about by a certain group of people or entities that want to keep Scotland in the Union are based on a certain set of assumptions that result in a pleasing headline figure for the group bandying about the figures.
John
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217. You are aware that these "assumptions" were produced by the SNP after detailed re-examination and recalculation of over 3,000 individual Holyrood and Treasury figures, aren't you?
Did you miss that?
However, you continue believing that particular nationalist conspiracy theory. Go for it.
"Bald truth". Yeah, right.
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217. Oh, feel free to examine the latest "assumption" and back up your claim that "it's all lies".
When the nationalists are calling the SNP's flagship argument "all lies", you just know the independence campaign is in dire straits!
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#218 RE
You assume that "over 3000 ... figures" impresses me. Do you think that this is even close to the whole number of figures that are produced in the accounts of a country? That it is even the correct order of magnitude?
Keep your head buried in the sand, and continue to believe the soundbite figures that are fed to you if that's what makes you happy. Remeber that all the figures are produced for political purposes, especially the ones that you are so fond of quoting.
If I want to get close to the truth, I look at similar countries with similar income and expenditure, whose headline figures are available. That will give you a much better grasp of the truth (or potential truth).
If you have nothing relevant to say other than "I don't believe you" (as the truth is neither of us knows the full truth) then don't bother replying.
John
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#219 RE
Is english your native language? Can you even comprehend a simple argument? or (more likely) are you some child randomly spitting out insults?
John
ps. don't bother trying to snswer.
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197. gedguy2
"according to the UK government, it is not Scotland's oil"
And as long as the Scots lie back and agree, they're right! It's ours if when we are independent, but not till then.
Let other people make the rules, and they can lie and cheat all they like.
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Superb denial here!
220. Keep your head buried in the sand, and continue to believe the soundbite figures that are fed to you if that's what makes you happy. Remeber that all the figures are produced for political purposes, especially the ones that you are so fond of quoting.
I'm quoting the SNP! LOL!
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214. Reluctant-Expat
Source?
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"In Scotland my government will take forward proposals in the final report of the commission on Scottish devolution."
I think we should have a referendum on this don't you?
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220. You assume that "over 3000 ... figures" impresses me. Do you think that this is even close to the whole number of figures that are produced in the accounts of a country? That it is even the correct order of magnitude?
The SNP were free to challenge as many figures as they wanted. They challenged over 3,000.
If I want to get close to the truth, I look at similar countries with similar income and expenditure, whose headline figures are available. That will give you a much better grasp of the truth (or potential truth).
So, you don't even trust the SNP's figures then? The figures they quote in endless pro-independence soundbites? And how do you find "similar countries with similar income and expenditure" if you refuse to believe what the SNP tell you about Scotland's income and expenditure?
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224. My source?
http://www.snp.org/home/
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# 215 nedafo2
I'm not too sure that there is a global scientific concensus about climate change and the causes of it. I become even more suspicious of this CO2 rise when I hear governments trying to make taxes out of this 'problem'. I think the jury is still out on this case. However, I would be happy to back the case for any reduction of polluting gases that we as a race are pumping into our atmosphere.
As to the the voters apathy over this I suspect that they have other, more pressing, financial concerns to deal with.
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You all should ignore Reluctant-Expat and his economic arguments. It was several months ago that Reluctant-Expat attempted to paint the picture that London and the South East actually subsidise everyone else, in the United Kingdom.
I don't know about you. However I believe it still proves that the political union has no economic benefits for Scotland, which results on money to be transfered to help boast basic services outside London (and the south east).
I suppose Reluctant-Expat believes that having over 50 percent of Scottish exports going to England is a good thing too...
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RE.
I am disagreeing with you, and the way you have selectively quoted some figures and then put your own meanings onto them. You have also failed to comprehend (and I can only assume deliberately, as you can type and therefor have some intelligence) those figures, and what I have said about them.
If your aim is to simply annoy people, then you are doing a good job. Well done. I won't say go away, as everyone is equally entitled to their say. I however will treat your future "says" with the contempt they deserve.
John
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222. Do you live in a time-warp, oldnat?
I swear you made the same baseless claims earlier in the year and disappeared when you were called on them. Are you AGAIN denying that full oil revenues are not returned to Scotland?
This reminds me: In a recent edition of the Economist (August 09?), it was reported that Scotland's economy, including all oil, has been in recession (and this was before the current UK-wide recession) for 6 of the last 10 years primarily because of the year-on-year drop in oil production and oil's strong presence in the Scottish economy. The exceptions were during the recent price bubble.
I don't see the SNP commenting on this, let alone finding a way of dismissing it.
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#226
I also look at similar countries with similar income and expenditure and if you look at the one that is most similar - Norway - then Murphy could not possibly come up with an argument that says that country is an economic or social failure.
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afternoon, INDEPENDENCE 'TO COST FIRMS £1BN'
OR tax costs to Scottish business could double to more than £1bn
which one is it ? it can't be both!!
According to Scottish Labour how much was it going to cost every single one of us if we had the audacity to elect an SNP government ??
How much has Labour in westminster actually cost us?
will Mr Murphy ever tell us that ?
Sid
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214. I partly agree with you, John. Partly, because both your comments apply to anti-Unionists as well as pro-Unionists. Both will present and manipulate data to suit their political stance. Politicians are nothing if not arch-manipulators, dissemblers and propagandists.
Ultimately, the issue of maintaining or breaking up the United Kingdom is an emotive one - I feel that the economic arguments are a bit of a red herring and a distraction, as it is all crystal ball gazing. There may be some people who can see a direct, known personal economic advantage in one route or the other, but, for most, life will go on pretty much as before. 300 years of inter-twined political, economic and cultural connections won't unwind overnight.
Personally, I think that the Union is dying - and I'm a little sad about it, for a couple of reasons. It feels like a marital breakdown (lots of mud pie slinging in the blogs); and then there's my "Confused ID" - What is the group identity of this 3rd generation Irish, England-dweller, born overseas, with Scottish relatives? I was born British, I've never thought of myself as anything other than British - and I suppose I'll die British, whether I outlive the Union or not.
I guess I seem to find myself a Unionist by default - It's what I've always known. But, nobody in their right mind could question the right of the Scottish people to establish themselves once again as a sovereign state if that is their collective, majority wish. I just wish there was more honesty and less vitriol in some of the blogs - Have you seen The Scotsman's 'have your say' blogs? You'd think we were in the middle of a civil war or in 1990's Bosnia.
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# 222 oldnat
I find nothing to disagree with there.
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Reluctant-Expat:
#231.
Thanks for pointing out that problems of the Scottish economy. The economy is more or less under the control of Westminster. It would be interesting to learn where your 'source' received it's information but I would not want to disprove the fact that the political union has not brought economic benefits to Scotland.
Do you support the argument that Scotland is subsidised? How can that be called a success and reason why Scotland should remain in the political union?
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232. You conveniently forgot Ireland and Iceland from Salmond's 2007 Arc of Prosperity.
And, once again, I remind you to consider all the other aspects of starting an Oil Fund. For starters...
a) All oil revenues are currently spent each year so for every £1bn invested, you'd have to cut £1bn from current spending. Where would it come from? That's around 2-3% of overall spending when Salmond is making a major issue of "Westminster cuts" of just half that amount.
b) Even after the SNP's best-case-scenario of saving £1bn a year for 10 years without withdrawals (with that loss of £10bn from public spending), investment return in the 11th year, after covering for inflation, would only be about £200m. That's about 5% of the current devolved budget which will obviously be an even smaller % in ten years time...and far smaller still of an independent Scotland's full budget.
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Reluctant-Expat
So you are saying that the Snps statics are lies based on staticis from the people you are saying are lying about the statistics :)
The SNP.ORG is a political site - as with any political site (and this includes the partial BBC as a political arm of the UK establishment), read everything with caution.
The only facts we have is that Scotland is not administered nationally. There are no fiscal collectio of taxes or audited accounts at Scottish level. There is at UK level but you cannot seriously attribute what is Scotland only from this.
We know the only way to have accurate accounts for Scotland with a UK framework is fiscal autonomy. Why are the unionists so afraid of this?
It makes so much sense to avoid these stupid discussions based on thin air.
Fiscal autonomy is not independence and if Scotland is getting its fair share it would reduce the call to go further. Calmans conclusion that Fiscal autonomy is independence is a complete nonsence and a desperate lie. It was also a significant change from his interim report that only said 'fiscal autonmy would lead to independence'.
So, if a unionist clique with a goal of 'securing' Scotland in the UK states that fiscal autonomy would lead to independence. Please tell us why this could be in 100 words or less?
Fiscal autonomy within states has not lead to breakup elsewhere.
So, why would fiscal autonomy lead to UK breakup if Scotland has an equitable position in the UK?
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Hi,
The arguments will go on and on about benefits of being in the Union or independent, Reluctant-Expat sounds like he has figures banded around and jumped on them being from whatever source, we can see figures all around where you can put any slant to it if you want, I posted the one figure that sound sensible to me, it does not matter if money generated from Scottish Oil is £1 or £100 a barrel, this revenue split between the 5 million people in Scotland does go further than 65 million people in the UK. The stumbling block is getting control of this (Independence) more and more oil fields are being found i.e. Tornado yet goes unhighlighted in any national broadcast or newspaper (why?). We need to stop squabbling among ourselves and see what we can do to make Scotland stand up and be counted even the Unionists should start to see that being an independent country does not mean they have to become nationalists, but may mean them thinking on behalf of this small nation and see the potential in it.
I am also sure that someday in the future if we were independent that whatever party is in control will have the heart and the wellfare of the Scottish people the first priority.
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# 234 Confused_ID
Good post. I tend to agree with most, if not all, of your sentiments. Even if/when we get our independence I will continue to see myself as British. That will never change. I have too many family that see themselves as English and I would support them in their feelings of nationality. However, I see myself as Scottish first and foremost and British as second. In fact I would agrue that I am an EU citizen and British with equal standing. If/when independence comes for my country then I would be content to know that I have attempted to achieve a more financially secure future for my country. Will I be sad that the Union has gone, of course. It was useful in its time but it does not serve the people of Scotland or the peoples of the rest of the UK in the way that it once did. Let us hope that if/when the time comes that the divorce will be amicable terms. After all, we will still be in the Commonwealth and will still have the same monarch.
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#238 Ephemeraldeception, Afternoon I can answer in far less than 100 word's- ENGLAND CAN'T AFFORD TO "GIVE" SCOTLAND FULL FISCAL AUTONOMY-
you only need to look at the Farce that was the latest offering from the Calman commission
Sid.
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231. Reluctant-Expat
Beyond hilarious!
If Scotland were receiving all its (between 83% and 97% of "Britain's") oil revenue, we'd either be sat on a HUGE mattress if we kept it, living in space-wasting des reses and driving gas guzzling brute-sized cars if we just spend-spend-spent it, or have performed an almost miraculous feat if we merely wasted it!! How do you drain that many BILLION pounds away and have nothing to show?! (- other than channel it into wars) We would certainly deserve congratulations for that! It's £12 billion a year - £380 a SECOND. (Tick, tick, tick...)
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# 239 ahumscottish2
There is only one place in the UK that has access to the figures that we would all like to see, whether they be Unionists or nationalists and that is in the treasury in London. Only they hold the key to the total tax revenues collected in Scotland and the total tax expenditures. The treasury being who they are will never release the true figures to anyone, and I suspect that they don't even release them to the UK government, but that is another story. Therefore, any figures, by either government, that is being brandished is just pure guesswork (even more so by the Scottish government) and, as such, has to be taken in the political arena that these figures are being bandied in.
I wish it weren't so because we would then be able to have a decent and informed debate on this matter, but, I suspect, that is exactly what the treasury is determined to avoid.
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Online Ed Here
Yes, I've seen the latest piece of propaganda produced by the so called Scotland Office and headlined by every traditional Scottish media outlet. It isn't worth debating, the source of the figures long since having lost credibility along with the news vendors themselves - the figures are complete fabrication.
An American recently referred to arganisations like these and those who pick up and run with the disinformation as 'disinformation trolls'. Its intention is to make real debate impossible by frequently lobbing little contrived grenades into the arena.
He remarked that engaging with such entities diverts one from the very real debate that needs to be had.
We've seen much the same with the myth that Scotlands business community is now against the SNP.
The agenda in Scottish politics is now being set by contrived soundbites and statements from a variety of organisations - real issues and mature politics are being sidelined. This is a wholesale change from 2007 when the SNP caught the establishment completely off guard.
This is how the Unionist establishment have adjusted to the SNP's success and the tactics will continue. Don't be dragged into their nebulous world of fantasy debates - responding to less than flattering rhetoric is an even greater waste of time.
Scotland faces £2000,0000,0000 billion black hole claims David Icke - treat these nonsense stories with contempt and move on, there's work to do.
Newsnet Scotland has surpassed the 400 subscribers mark and is on target to reach 1000 people by August 2010 - the less I respond to disinformation trolls the better Newsnet Scotland content becomes.
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Online Ed Here
The ghouls have started their morbid counting of Megrahi's final days - the dignity of Scottish Politics is about to take another hammering.
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"Tax costs to Scottish businesses under independence could double to more than £1bn, the UK government has said."
"A Scotland Office paper also said they would also be hit with the burden of complying with a separate system if Scotland gained full fiscal powers."
More unsubstantiated scaremongering from the Scotland Office (or Westminster anti-independence propaganda bureau as it would be more aptly known).
Without knowing what the Scottish government's tax proposals for anything might yet be how can this report be at all valid?
Why is the Scotland Office along with the Treasury and HM Revenue & Customs wasting time and money producing rubbish like this when the country is practically bankrupt due to their incompetance. There can only be one reason - propaganda to keep the frighteners on the Scottish business community.
I notice the report isn't available on the Scotland Office site yet, so we can't know what other nonsense is in the report other than what the Unionist Broadcasting Corp tells us. I look forward to wasting some time reading wee Jim's bedtime nightmares story (the big bad bogeyman is going to come and TAX you) when it is published.
The sooner the better.
Bring it on.
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Thanks for that gedguy2.
Does that mean that all those Scots that have held privileged positions in the treasury and therefore have no principles in relating the true cost of Scotland's contribution, is their party more important than their home land???
Yes these are the people holding the figures and may be in 30 years we will see the evidence, like the oil revenue report from the 70's.
The government know take away oil revenue and what is left what does England have to replace this loss??? The tax payers down there will certainly find.
As for Jim Murphy?????????? enough said.
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JRMaclure makes some very good points about English anti-Scottish racism. It certainly exists. However it's a low-level nuisance rather than a serious problem, in the same way anti-English racism in Scotland is a minor and low-level nuisance and not a serious threat to anyone's health or well-being.
The political relevance is that English anti-Scottish racism is portrayed by Unionists as "just a bit of fun" whereas Scottish anti-English racism is portrayed by the same people as the evil and dangerous manifestation of a Scottish crypto-fascist nationalism.
No one objects to a bit of fun. But we should all object to hypocrisy.
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#234 Confused_ID
Agree with virtually everything you said. Alot of it is what I was trying to say to R-E. I agree particularly that you will be hard pressed to find a political source of statistics (from either side) that is not the result of selective "assumptions".
Like others here I also find this argument a side issue, although I believe that we would be better off independent (as I believe the rest of Britain would be). The main loser would be the city of London, which would no longer need to support a vastly overinflated beaurocracy.
John
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245. U14094468
Put another clock beside it. Ronnie Biggs was released earlier by Jack Straw and is still alive. Both Justice Secretaries made the right decision in my view, though if one was wrong in some people's eyes, then they both were.
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238. EphemeralDeception (like the name...must change my 'temporary' username!),
I don't link fiscal autonomy to independence. I'm an avowed federalist which, as far as UK internal fiscal autonomy goes, means greatly increased empowerment of local government at the expense of UK and devolved legislatures.
So I'm all for fiscal autonomy but at a local level...which is fully at odds to the SNP who seek all power in the centre. The SNP are at the other end of the spectrum with the current financing structure in the middle.
Examples: LIT would have centralised all remaining local fiscal autonomy, the SNP has centralised local government utility contracts and through the historic-superiffic concordat, they have leveraged a say in locally-managed public services beyond any influence contained within budgetary ring-fencing. Holyrood now has more say in local government and services than ever existed pre-devolution. And, as I say, the SNP seek more.
The federal way? As a comparison, in federal countries, the state legislatures (ie. not federal or local) have budgets that range between 4-10% of respective GDP (compared to Holyrood's current 25% of GDP). Applying such federal levels would give Holyrood a budget of just under £7-14bn compared to the current £35bn. Plus it would remove almost all say in local services.
Can you see Salmond going for that kind of fiscal autonomy? Do you think he'd happily accept his budget being cut from £35bn to £7-14bn?
(To complete the picture, federal govts have a budget of 15-20% of GDP which would reduce the Whitehall budget from £600bn-ish to £210-280bn)
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240. Thanks, much appreciated. I'm just in the process of coming to terms with political realities on this important issue. There is just no debate at all in England about this subject, apart from a few right-wing 'little Englanders', who represent nobody, spouting nonsense. I will be most upset though if Scotland manages to dump the monarchy, and I'm still stuck with it!
243. It's hard not to get embroiled in debate on the economic arguments, of course. I doubt if even the UK Treasury have access to meaningful figures, as so many of the statistics collated by the ONS and other bodies are UK-wide. We can, however, be sure that almost any data collected now or in the future will be spun or disseminated in such a way that nobody can place credence upon them.
I think it's much more meaningful to discuss the purely political - how we govern ourselves/are governed - than get immersed in economic issues, if only because the subject matter of economics and nationalism (Brit Nat or Scot Nat)are themselves essentially exclusive. After all, a single mother in a run-down estate in Leith has has more in common with one in London than with a banker or senior civil servant living a few miles down the road.
Now that I AM starting to come to terms with the state of the Union , I can see the attraction, particularly within the context of the EU, of full independence. On a major level, it would bring government and accountability closer to home. The downside with the EU as presently constituted is that decision-making is so fundamentally undemocratic, and even more divorced from Scotland than Westminster might be perceived to be. This applies of course, to all the constituent UK nations.
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#237
As it happens I think there are bigger priorities now than starting an oil fund. My preference would be to ensure oil revenues go into economic growth through a variety of mechanisms but certainly including the funding of new technologies and start-up and spin-out companies.
An almost immeasurable amount of damage has been done to Scotland's economy by both Labour and the Tories over the last fifty years or so but without a shadow of a doubt the mismanagement of the financial services sector has been their worst policy mistake. This led to a collapse in manufacturing and the unbalancing of the economy big time.
Worse than that, it has led to it becoming almost impossible for Scottish researchers to realise their ambitions to commercialise technologies in Scotland and to Scotland's benefit as happened in Norway. The commercial loss has been huge.
I know what happened in Norway because I spent a lot of time over there during the 70s and 80s in particular. It was really quite strange watching that country evolve into having a broadbased economy but with high levels of expertise and capability in the energy sector which they are now capitalising on and on the other hand watching Scotland being walked over by everyone else.
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#246 X_Sticks
I think that what they are saying, but not making clear is the following (and is nothing about tax to be paid):
If a company does business in both Scotland and the Rump of the UK, then it will have to have a cost centre for tax purposes, and employ accountants for both these countries. This will cost *wave hands in air* about £1 billion.
It probably makes assumptions similar to the following:
1. All companies doing business in Scotland also do business in the rest of the UK.
2. None of them do business in the rest of the world and therefor have an international accounts department
3. Each cost centre will cost the same amount
4. Each cost centre will cost the same as their entire accounts department currently.
5. All the extra cost will be heaped on the Scottish end of the business
John
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234. Confused_ID
Perhaps you will, but the term "British", as we are, will merely lose its political badge. It will indicate a piece of land mass, as "Scandinavian", "Iberian" and "Latin American" do. There really is no great loss in it.
Unfortunately, worldwide, Scotland is politically mute in an imperial union (and internally has so little powers compared just to states/provinces in the US and Canada, out of many examples) and upon investigation the only answer to this inequity is the normality of independence - other half way house arrangements just aren't robust enough to repel scrutiny. Besides we are already in a Union, the European Union. (It's much safer in that Al-Qaeda aren't having an argument specifically with it!)
We nations, England, Scotland...will have more power, politically, negotiating collectively as sovereign countries. That's cleverer. The powers that be at Westminster are the only losers, as they won't be able to parade at being the "big boys" anymore. But the world has changed, moved forward, and I don't think we should sacrifice democracy for them (expenses scandal?)
Gordon Brown has bankrupted the British State (Europe's press did gleefully notice) and one way or another it is going to fall. It's had its day, but the a new dawn doesn't erase history or your pride in it. You're not stripped of anything. You relationship with your relatives is unchanged - "British" still binds you. What though if you had an Italian mother and a Mexican father? You wouldn't have thought it problematic not to have a group term for that.
We need to get into the thick of it with Europe, and not be standing stubborn, alone yet defiant, in an isolated and out of touch Britain - whose power has quite waned and is still, quickly, waning. As British and English or Scottish, it is actually better for you.
Westminster politicians feel emasculated without "Britain". But continuing to swagger on as if it is some world force, while broke, could be even more humiliating, not to mention expensive for us (not them remember - pockets lined). However I feel that is what it may take - for their denial to bite us on the bum. Happy landing :-)
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242. What is wrong with you nationalists? How many times do you have to be told and by how many people?
Even the SNP have disproven this nonsense.
Repeat after me:
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
The SNP have shown in consecutive reports that Scotland receives its full share of oil revenues.
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#246 x_sticks afternoon,
"the big bad bogeyman is going to come and TAX you"
Q. And what exactly have the labour party done in the past 10 years??
A. more tax's implemented than promises kept!!
Sid
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237:Reluctant-Expat -
"Even after the SNP's best-case-scenario of saving £1bn a year for 10 years without withdrawals (with that loss of £10bn from public spending), investment return in the 11th year, after covering for inflation, would only be about £200m."
This is one of the stupidest things you've ever posted. (Which is going some) Care to give us your figures for inflation between, say 2011 and 2021? Care to explain to us what 'compound interest' is? Care to share the details you hold of the various Scottish Energy Fund investment vehicles (Because, as I'm sure you're well aware - there will be a series of widely diverged portfolios - it's not like you stick all the money in one bank account is it?) and their annual, aggregated rates of return?
Care to admit you have no idea what you're talking about?
Thought not.
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#234 Confused_ID
Hi, welcome. British is a snare and a delusion, the Scots are British as are the Irish and even the English. It's all about who you want to be, if it matters enough to you to want to be part of some other group. You are also a European, but maybe that is too nebulous a group to identify with. The people I have a problem with are those that see themselves as British as in the sense of the "British Empire on which the sun never sets" and who insist on "punching above their weight" in the world. There are too many of these British Imperialists and, unfortunately, too many are ConLabLibs in the Houses of Parliament and in Government. So we end up with Trident, two aircraft carriers and ID cards because of their Imperial meddling in world affairs. British as in "I served in the British forces" is fine. That is people doing their job in an organisation with others, just like any other business but, as we have seen with the spectacular collapse of the banks, working in an organisation does not mean that the bosses are right.
Britain is an archipelago off the North West of Europe where most of the inhabitants speak English. Despite everything Global has said on the subject, there is nothing more that defines British than that.
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#256 RE
Why bother?
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255. Unfortunately, worldwide, Scotland is politically mute in an imperial union (and internally has so little powers compared just to states/provinces in the US and Canada, out of many examples)
Er....wrong. See my post 251. California, with a population and economy eight times that of Scotland, has a state budget of just £60bn, not even double that of Holyrood's.
We need to get into the thick of it with Europe, and not be standing stubborn, alone yet defiant, in an isolated and out of touch Britain - whose power has quite waned and is still, quickly, waning.
Scotland's vote in the European Council and in the European Parliament will be around 1% of the total vote.
Quite why nationalists insist this equates to "Scotland having a louder voice in Europe" as opposed to standing with the rest of the UK, one of the 'Big Four' and the second-largest EU economy, is nonsensical.
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Vere-scribo, let me guess....You're 15-18 years old and a regular reader of nationalist blogs. On the nose, I think.
Ever thought of challenging what you read on them, instead of blindly reading-believing-repeating what is frequently total bilge?
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258. I'm quoting the SNP again.
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255. I understand and accept what you are saying. My point about my personal sense of identity was really to explain my perspective, as the first comment I'd put here - and also to state my belief that it's sense of identity that will decide the fate of the Union, not perceived economic gains and losses.
The thoughts I expressed have nothing to do with a yearning for a bygone Imperial might. On the contrary, I'm a socialist and a republican.
Your comments about if I had had , say, a Mexican parent, whether I would feel differently. I can't say, but the question does highlight what a profound difference there is, I think, between the strong sense of Scottish identity, and the much more confused notion of 'Englishness' as it is seen South of the border. In particular, there is an ethnic (sadly, often racist) element in the way that 'English' is percieved here in a way that seems to me largely absent in Scotland. For example, none of the people I know of Asian or African or Carribean descent ever refer to themselves as English, no matter how far back their connection with England goes - always British. That isn't the case in Scotland, from my experience. - And the fact is, I envy you that.
My sense of loss, is of course not 'real' in a material sense - and I'm not being stripped of anything. It's just that 'English' can never offer the same sense of belonging - in my own mind - that British does.
I'll stop harping on about it now!
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258. Forgot to add that Norway's mighty oil fund has averaged a return of just 1% over the past decade (1999-2009). The SNP were being quite optimistic with their forecasts. Again.
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Reluctant-Expat:
#261.
"Scotland's vote in the European Council and in the European Parliament will be around 1% of the total vote.
Quite why nationalists insist this equates to "Scotland having a louder voice in Europe" as opposed to standing with the rest of the UK, one of the 'Big Four' and the second-largest EU economy, is nonsensical."
Your quite wrong, actually very wrong.
Scotland would offer more MEPs and the chances are those MEPs will be apart of the 2nd and 3rd largest political groups at the European Parliament.
Being apart of the Big4 or apart of the second largest EU country (totally nonense) might be useful, if the UK actually used all their might to look after Scotlands interests, which is impossible.
Why would the UK look after the interests of 5 million individuals when most people live in England?
It's nice watching pathetic attempts to talk down independence, maybe you would have better luck by describing why the union is better for Scotland?
But hey, you would actually be the first unionist to defend the union without talking down independence if you did!
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#261 R-E
A good example of how you are deliberately mangling figures: You said previously (#251) that up to 4-10% is spent at state level. 15-20% is spent at country (federal) level, there are three levels of spending so the rest is spent locally (minimum 70%, maximum 81%). So the local budget is at least 7 times the state budget (a maximum of 20.25 times). So the total amount spent within california is between 480bn and ~1.2 trillion dollars. Both these figures are slightly more than eight times Scotland's budget.
John
ps. I do not know the local government tax take, which would need to be added on to Scotlands budget for the comparison to hold.
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262. Reluctant-Expat
Nope! And others now see how pathologically wrong who are :-)
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#265 RE
My, my, an asset and positive growth. What is the growth in the UK debt mountain in 1999-2009? You could start with the official figures, then we can go on to chewing the fat over PFI/PPP liabilities, not forgetting the Governments liability for public servant's pensions or their pension promises to the British at large. Looking forward to UK bankruptcy are you?
Me, I'd go for having an asset any time.
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263. Reluctant-Expat
"258. I'm quoting the SNP again."
You say you are, but haven't yet directed anyone to the documents or statements you claim to be quoting.
Saying you're quoting someone doesn't mean anything if you can't show the source.
If you are quoting them, post the source - you can't lose.
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267. The subject was state-level spending. The California state budget is 5-6% of California's GDP.
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268. Well, if you're older, perhaps you need to grow up.
But my suggestion that you challenge nationalist claims, instead of unconditionally believing-repeating them, stands.
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269. And another circle is completed. We're back to PFI's and pensions.
A bit of glass houses when the SNP are espousing increased borrowing just as the rest of the world looks to ways of cutting borrowing.
Much as the SNP were espousing "less gold-plated banking regulation" as the financial system collapsed due to insufficient international regulation.
Much as the SNP were lauding the Arc of Prosperity economies of Iceland and Ireland even as their economies imploded.....Iceland is bankrupt.
Yep, you nationalists do know what you are talking about when it comes to economics.
Anyway, as has been patiently explained on maaaany occasions, the UK's total debt is comparable to peer economies. Or, in the case of Japan and Italy, far better off.
Have Japan and Italy gone bankrupt then?
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#271
But then you went and ruined it by comparing a state with a nation.
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270. Just scrolled up to note all the sources posted to back up the great many (discredited) nationalist claims......hang on, I'll look again....mmm.
Anyway, I prefer to make you lot find it for yourselves and develop your awareness of the rest of the internet.
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274. Oh, enough. Just read post 261 again.
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271. Reluctant-Expat
"The California state budget is 5-6% of California's GDP."
California has the power to raise its taxes to the level it requires to fund the programmes that it wishes. It chooses to keep taxes low - hence it is bust and slashing services.
That is a political decision - nothing to do with its constitutional status. You really don't understand public fiscal policy do you?
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264. Confused_ID
"my belief that it's sense of identity that will decide the fate of the Union, not perceived economic gains and losses."
It's a very valid point. Why do you we think Gordon (North British) Brown has been banging on about "British jobs..." etc. and Britishness in general, so much? Englishness has indeed been superseded, replaced, devalued.
But, as the media swept in to influence society, only from post WWII (significant), the cultural overlap between English and British (same representing accent for a start) has meant you haven't noticed or perhaps bothered as much as have Scots, who have seen their identity either become represented, broadcast to them, as a curiosity, at the least an aside, and their main identity replaced by whatever "Britishness" is. Understandably this sits uncomfortably. Maybe you would say the question now is "Whatever Englishness is?" It's so similar to Britishness though, it won't die, will survive the rebranding.
Didn't mean to appear to assume that you were in some way harking back to a bygone imperial era. No doubt you are just a normal person! But so am I, but I am living with the consequences of that bygone age as represented by Scotland's ridiculous impotency being stuck with it. Remember, in response to some of the announced facts from ultra-unionists on this blog, the British state is known for not being completely transparent in its affairs, and it will lie to protect its power.
For in order to feel British, in the political not geographical sense, Scottishness must have less status. And it does. I am not represented.
It implies by being Scottish (as other countries are just French or just Spanish) I am lesser. I can't accept that that will continue. My offspring aren't "lesser". Lesser than British. But Scottish is my identity. British is lesser for me. Scottish and British cannot both be equal identities while this union lasts.
The British power dividend works in two ways.
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272. Reluctant-Expat
I've investigated. But what you are saying is, as I disagree with you, so you assume I haven't!
Shows you have a very patronising view of nationalists - sure it isn't you who needs to re-evaluate your bloody minded unionist stance? Or are nationalists always wrong.
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Today, even by the usual looow standards, this board is like banging your head against a brick wall.
277. Listen, the origin of this was a nationalist claim that Scotland has less powers than US states. I highlighted the gaping inaccuracy of this particular uninformed tosh by giving an example of how one of the most populous and wealthiest US states has actually got FAR LESS powers than Holyrood.
This has got absolutely nothing, zip, zilch to tax levels. California State government has considerably less powers and authority over that state than Holyrood has over Scotland.
Can you grasp that?
Always makes me laugh when nationalists, who suffer from extreme ignorance and gullibility, attempt to be condescending!
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280. Reluctant-Expat
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/briantaylor/2009/11/spending_challenge_looms.html#P88096254
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280. Reluctant-Expat
"I highlighted the gaping inaccuracy of this particular uninformed tosh by giving an example of how one of the most populous and wealthiest US states has actually got FAR LESS powers than Holyrood."
No you simply displayed your ignorance. California has the power to have an extremely low tax rate. It exercises that power. Scotland has no such powers.
You are (as so often) wrong because you select inappropriate data to support positions that you have misunderstood.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/const-toc.html
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#280 RE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Department_of_Motor_Vehicles
Care to comment?
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279. You clearly haven't investigated what you have read on the various nationalist blogs as you would not have repeated them here, ad nauseum, if you had.
For example, having read it somewhere (I can guess where, a particularly clueless nationalist rant of a site), you stated in post 242 that you believe Scotland does not get its oil revenue share back.
This is complete nonsense, you were extremely gullible to believe such a glaring inaccuracy and even the SNP don't try to claim this any more, having proven themselves wrong in several of their own reports.
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Reluctant-Expat:
#280.
"Always makes me laugh when nationalists, who suffer from extreme ignorance and gullibility, attempt to be condescending"
This is an interesting statement. Although it's dangerous as your suggesting that an entire group of individuals are stupid is the same arguments used by those who believe in white supremacy but also neo-Nazi groups.
Do you believe that humans are seperated between those who are inferior people and the superior bunch, or are you simply basing intelligence on ideological/regligious/policy choices?
Hail Reluctant-Expat! o/
I suspect you may be better withdrawing your earlier statement.
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282. California has the power to have an extremely low tax rate. It exercises that power. Scotland has no such powers.
Scotland has no tax-varying powers? Really? Income tax, council tax, business rates....?
No you simply displayed your ignorance.
Really.
I won't even comment on your grasp of state taxation and borrowing within a federal nation. You must enjoy extreme bliss.
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284. Reluctant-Expat
Basically you are saying Scotland will never have enough money to run itself. Is it not you who is gullibly spouting unioinist claims without even thinking first if they sound semi-sane, or even plausible.
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286. Reluctant-Expat
Uh, huh, income tax. Within plus or minus 3%, arranged in such a way so as it is detrimental to the Scottish purse if we raise and detrimental if we lower (deliberately dissimilar in that particular regard to the Canadian system, nice) - or are the Cuthberts just idiots aswell?
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282 and 283
I repeat:
The California state budget is 5-6% of their GDP.
Holyrood's budget is 25% of our GDP.
Holyrood has not just a far larger budget than the US state but also has far more say over internal matters than California state govt has. Police? Schools? Planning? Social services? Local taxation? Local public transport?...
You can list surreal websites (a vehicle licensing agency? Really? Very significant stuff) in some equally surreal attempt to prove me wrong but it just isn't going to wash, is it!
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288. Another conspiracy theory. I'll add that to the list!
So, you're saying that, unlike everywhere else in the world, varying income tax is always going to be "detrimental" in Scotland.
How so?
And you missed out council tax and business rates. I suppose messing with them would be "detrimental" too.
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264.
So Gordon "North Briton" Brown is no longer Scottish, in your eyes, because he's pro-Union? How are you going to persuade to your cause those amongst your fellow countrymen who also consider themselves British (as in part of a political entity of Britain) if you think its legitimate to deem them as un-Scottish? It's just demeaning.
I dispute completely that English = British = English; England does not equate to Britain, and my point about sense of identity makes that plain.
The cultural overlap I see is between the UK's nations.
There is a lot wrong with the Union as it's currently constituted. And I can see many people here consider it a redundant institution. But to say that political union = Scotland is lesser, inferior etc, or that the Voice of Britain is the Voice of England, is just something I cannot grasp.
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289. Reluctant-Expat
"I repeat"
Oh, we know. Endlessly and pointlessly.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_13
Tell us which powers of taxation Scotland has out of those - AND who determined that these should be the taxation of California.
You say you want a Federal structure, but you don't appear to understand the Federal structure that applies in the jurisdiction you quoted.
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291. Confused_ID
"The cultural overlap I see is between the UK's nations.
"
How about the cultural overlap between the UK nations and the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, and Ireland? Do you recognise these? I certainly do.
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290. Reluctant-Expat
I didn't claim that - two esteemed economists do. Or was it indeed me (18 year old economist?) because as a nationalist, I am of course mistaken, and as a unionist, you cannot be...
Do I really need to post a link - as a properly researched unionist surely you don't need me to??
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278. Sorry gave wrong reference in 291 (Confused, as you can see!)
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Confused_ID:
#294.
The English make up most of the population of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is therefore sensible to conclude that Great Britain represents certain parts of England, since thats where most of the population lives.
If you have evidence that proves the entire country stopped in order to ensure that Scotland is represented, then why is it difficult to understand that the Voice of Britain is the Voice of England? I wouldn't say that all of England is represented better, but at the end of the day Scotland is a minority group and the main focus is always on London.
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290. Reluctant-Expat
"And you missed out council tax and business rates. I suppose messing with them would be "detrimental" too."
They cannot offset the disadvantage the Scottish economy has through being part of the UK economy. Interestingly, Westminster is adamantly opposed to such a restrictive level playing field with regard to the EU. But, sod Scotland.
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291. Confused_ID
"So Gordon "North Briton" Brown is no longer Scottish, in your eyes, because he's pro-Union? "
Now, I didn't say that. Lets not twist it please. You yourself slammed many posters here for their uncooperative voice. I'm not criticising nor taking offence.
Scottishness is lesser because it has NO voice in Westminster (Westminster takes no account of national status), has no sovereignty, has no seat at the climate change summit or any of the top tables....
On the world stage Scotland has no political significance.
Britain does. Therefore....you see the difference. If I am Scottish it means I cannot have these things - thanks Britain :-)
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#289 Californias' GDP is $1920.2 billion, with a budget of $478.1 billion - US GDP is $14,728.8 billion - how do you work out your figures?
At the end of the day there are 50 states not 4 countries.
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289. Reluctant-Expat
You going to recognise contrast in size of GDPs, variance in nos of constituent states/nations, comparison of revenues they raise, those vs proportion of GDP....why not look at the way these states are represented in the houses of Representatives/Senate v Commons/Lords - which has fair representation at that level?....or you just going to rely on 25 being bigger than 6.
Nice soundbite, but soundbites just aren't going to cut it, are they.
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gedguy2 #228 - sure there is uncertainty over the climate change predictions. But what always surprises me is how those for and against independence get so caught up in the detailed debate about whether the Scottish economy could survive independence, whether it is a net contributor to the UK or is subsidised etc based on historical data. The debate never seems to take into account what the world will look like 10, 20 or more years ahead. For example, look at the density of population in the south-east of Enland including London. How much would it cost to provide it with adeqaute coastal defences iof sea levels continue rise as predicted (and some of these predictions seem conservative)? Could we end up in a situiation where as a result of the costs of providing these coastal defences, the sout-east of Englalnd is massively subsidised? This is just one example off the top of my head of how things might change. I suspect that at the end of the day, economic arguments will be secondary to emotional arguments in the independence debate. That said, I never fail to be amazed at how limited the economic arguments are.
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292. Finding and posting a link to the Californian Constitution DOES NOT automatically award you status as 'constitutional expert'. Seriously, it doesn't.
You provided a link to the articles on property taxes and duties, both available to Holyrood. Did you even read it or did you just blindly post the link?
You nats are now either scrabbling for anything in a desperate bid to undermine a passing observation on US states (don't get me wrong, this is not in any way boring) or just reverting to quoting from 'Alex Salmond's Great Big Book Of Nationalist Conspiracies And Other Nonsense'.
Young Porter, as always, has proven Godwins Law.
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299. Oh, lordy! Not another one!
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293. Yes, oldnat - I do. I was disputing the phrase 'cultural overlap between Britain and England' implicit within which is Britain = England.
294. "Britain represents certain parts of England." Which parts? If you mean that power is concentrated in London, well, yes it is. I imagine that most England residents outside the South East are impacted by this rather more than post-devolution Scotland.
Really, the issue comes down to group identity, no more and no less. I get the point - obviously i do - of the effect of the sheer disparity in size of population within the constituent countries. If the (political) concept of Great Britain is anathema, well, there's no more to be said - A federation would make no difference, regardless of what the distribution of power and representation was.
All I know is that I'm going to feel stateless when the end comes. Maybe that's just me being weird.
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302. Reluctant-Expat
You insult everyone, so its useful if you put the monicker as well so we know who you are insulting.
I didn't think you would understand the list. All you needed to do was to look at the introduction "The Legislature may provide for property taxation of all forms of tangible personal property, shares of capital stock, evidences of indebtedness, and any legal or equitable interest
therein not exempt under any other provision of this article."
Now just which of these is available to Scotland?
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Reluctant-Expat:
It was quite a simple question that I asked, why are you incapable of answering or at least admitting that it was inappropiate to begin with?
You said, "Always makes me laugh when nationalists, who suffer from extreme ignorance and gullibility, attempt to be condescending"
You have insisted that nationalists suffer from extreme ignorance. Isn't that the same attitude that other groups with extreme views hold, that their somewhat superior to the person next to them?
It's quite an innocent question. I am more interested on how you said it rather then what was actually said, you either honestly believe nationalists to be inferior or made a common error on writing a sentence that shows your putting all nationalists into one boat.
You would never have wrote that sentence and put instead a colour of a persons skin, religious beliefs, so why do you believe it's sensible to call nationalists ignorant for simply being nationalists?
Besides nationalists are products of the education system of Scotland and England and elsewhere in the world, are you suggesting those systems are corrupt or that nationalists are simply born stupid?
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Reluctant-Expat:
#302.
"Young Porter, as always, has proven Godwins Law."
I will also point out that ages ago you backed the violence used against the BNP.
You've supported organisations that claim the BNP are the nazi party of Britain, so maybe you should check what you have wrote in the past before saying more.
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298. No offence was intended. That's what I read into your description of 'North Briton' Brown. - My apologies if that was not your implication.
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304. Confused_ID
"All I know is that I'm going to feel stateless when the end comes. Maybe that's just me being weird. "
It's not weird at all. Perfectly natural, and if my side wins then I'll feel sorry for you and those others whose core identity is British.
I've often said I'm not "British", but that's only in a political context within the current constitutional set up. If you're willing to extend the concept of Britishness to all of us in these islands - regardless of current statehood - preferably incorporating some form of loose co-operative structure within the EU - then I don't see why you should feel totally cut off from your roots, and why I can't join you.
Peter Hain's action in vetoing the Council of the Isles being headquartered in Edinburgh, however, means I have less confidence in that being achieved in the amicable manner in which it should be. (Personally, I'd have centred it in the Isle of Man, but that's not what the nations voted for).
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309. We aren't so far apart, I think. It is an emotive issue, and I suppose I feel somehow threatened by the thought of the dissolution of the nationality I recognise for myself. But,on reflection, the identity or group belonging that I carry is a cultural more than a political thing. If you only identify as Scottish, and don't feel British - in a political sense - well - fair enough!
One thing we do have in common - and that goes for many of us in the (current) Union - is a realisation that we are alienated from the political establishment. I'm not sure that Scottish independence would rectify that - replacing a British state with a Scottish state. But at least most of the decision-making would be closer to home, and consequently a little more accountable (one would hope).
One great irony of the end of the Union ('your side' will win, so to speak, at some point,I suspect) is that it's the 'Uber-Unionists' who continue to stab it. It makes you wonder about what motivates them, other than their sense of power and privilege and a cynically narrow self-interest. During my adult life, that has been the case from Thatcher ,through the 'Thatcher in lamb's clothing' Blair, into the present. Your comment about Hain's veto is just another illustration.
Anyway, I wish you all the best - I'll survive my 'stateless' state!
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Isn't it strange that a word can evoke such a barrage of comments. The word in question was used, in its various forms, all over Europe and was not regarded as a swear word until the Victorian era. If you wiki the word then you might be surprised to its origins and usage.
As to the person above who looks down their nose at the sort of people who would use those types of swear words then I would have to bring them to the attention of certain members of the Royal family who have no embarrassment about using such words to express themselves to emphasis a point. This is not a guess as I happened to be within earshot of one of the Queen's children who swore like a trooper. I wonder if that person would like to convey their disgust to those members of the Royal family who are well known to practise the full range of the English language.
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I've posted this on the wrong blog. It should have been 'Just say no'. Sorry.
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