'Just say no'
Perhaps it was the presence of Willie Bain, smiling wanly in the public gallery, but today's Labour/SNP exchanges at first minister's questions seemed notably antagonistic.
Mr Bain, of course, is a living, grinning reminder that Labour thumped the SNP in the Glasgow North East by-election.
Today, like an invited Banquo, he hovered over the pre-lunch feast of oratory that is the weekly question session.
Labour's Holyrood leader Iain Gray has not perhaps been universally successful in upsetting First Minister Alex Salmond in these exchanges.
So he made the most of Banquo Bain.
Mr Salmond, apparently, was "losing it".
Losing touch with reality, losing the support of business and the unions - and, above all, losing it on the streets of Glasgow NE.
Dual mandate
At which point, he welcomed the bold Willie. Labour MSPs cheered. They yelled. They crowed.
Helen Eadie even waved, maternally, to the new MP.
Perhaps Mr Salmond was temporarily discomfited. Not sure he should have made a gag about Willie Bain seeking a "dual mandate" with his Holyrood visit.
A collective growl arose from the opposition benches: a bit like the racket when the orcs first appear, defiant and furious, in Lord of the Rings.
Said growl reminded us that the one with the dual mandate, pending the next Westminster election, is Alex Salmond MP MSP.
In fact, take that back. The FM definitely shouldn't have made a reference to dual mandates.
Still, Mr Salmond rallied splendidly. After batting economic stats back and forth with Mr Gray, he closed by addressing the "losing it" charge.
'Young and ambitious'
He suggested, deftly, that the problem for the Labour leader was a widespread public perception that "he never had it in the first place."
PS: En passant, Annabel Goldie referred obliquely to the vacant post of Scotland football manager.
Touchy subject for me as a lifelong Arab when United's Craig Levein is said to be the hot tip.
Craig, just say no. You're young and ambitious. Better to build your profile at Tannadice than jeopardise it at Hampden.
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How childish that man Gray is. What was the point of bringing the grinning Bain along other than to taunt the SNP. It didn't advance the Scottish economy and didn't do much for Labour's credibility either.
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Brian,
Bain still interested more in devolved matters than Westmidden, I see, but your "Labour thumped the SNP" is hardly apposite for a party (NuLab) who have been losing vote share in Glasgow NE since 1997 vs a party (SNP) who are at a 12-year high in the constituency.
As I have only just posted.....
#86 JRMacClure previous thread
"WarDog commented further and I'll leave debating whether he's right on the math to our statistical anoraks"
Re WarDog, I don't often link to his blog [often expressed in terms likely to upset the mods] but I do read it and can confirm that his numbers are about right. It's certainly the best explanation of the decrease in the formerly honourable but now noble Baron Martin of Springburn's share of the vote between 1997 and 2005.
His shares of the vote were:
1997 71.4% as Labour SNP 16.50%
2001 66.6% as Speaker SNP 19.4%
2005 53.3% as Speaker SNP 17.7%, Socialist Labour 14.2%
Bain's result was:
2009 59.4% as Labour SNP 20.0%
NB. Socialist Labour stood only in 2005. The boundaries of the seat have also changed a little over the years.
An unglencambly headline after the by-election would have been:
Labour hold Glasgow NE with lower vote share while SNP increase share
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I assume Mr Salmond won the debate, AGAIN, Brian?
Your statement starts all nice in cosy(well it involves the Labour party) then drifts to your usual anything to attack the FM!
Remember the SNP absolutely thumped the Labour party in the Euros. Now that's more telling than a safe Labour seat which was helped along by a cowardly media with smears and lies.
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Why does Grey keep on insisting on coming up with some sort of soundbite? He has to realise that without anything to back them up, they just sound hollow, and he looks stupid. Maybe he thinks we should be governed by the person who can make the best pun?
Having said that, I watched the STV coverage of the GNE result (sorry Brian, I am fed up with the BBC). In that he seemed like a nice, affable person, indeed all the politicians on that program came across pretty well (maybe it was because they only had prepared statements for the first hour and afer that, they had to ad-lib, and actually sounded like real people).
John
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Interesting day at the office Brian.
Not surprised that Willie Bain should turn up at the Scottish Parliament as everything he campaigned on for his "amazing" victory were devolved to Holyrood.
didn't take long for him to start "dogging it" from westminster did it!
2 points from auntie Annabell's questions.
1. up until very recently GG&c Health Board were determined to totally revolutionise the delivery of community nursing with district nursing ,health visitors,school nurses and any other service providers being replaced with 1 person to cover every single one of the above disciplines and removing the link with GP's surgery's. thankfully it was stopped BUT,
2. At this moment GG&c is looking to reduce the number of district nursing Sisters that cover Renfrewshire from 24 to 10 a reduction of over 60%
Anyone know someone who might like to investigate ?
Sid
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What a childish bunch of losers. Did this exchange in any way help those losing their jobs? Did this charade help small businesses struggling to survive? Is the Scotland Managers job really an issues for FMQ?
This almost makes me despair of politicians. When will they start to address the real issues we face? And they wonder why the overwhelming majority just didn't bother to vote at all.
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General question to all bloggers. Do you sense any difference in peoples attitudes where you live or work for/against the SNP or Westminster? Has the GNE result shocked anyone or is it business as usual. What's your and your colleagues/friends/families feelings on things at present?
I just want to guage what's happening where you are as we see comments from all over the country but not really any trends.
Thanks
STC
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Brian
I pity you for having to put up with the cyber Nats every week/day. As though the SNP would not have brought David Kerr along if they had won in Glasgow NE....
I for one think you are always offering an unbiased view of politics in Scotland.
I agree that Salmond made a (very) rare blunder in saying that about the dual mandate but I also agree his jibe against Gray was very efficient.
Bit of a deadlock for me today.
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"Having said that, I watched the STV coverage of the GNE result (sorry Brian, I am fed up with the BBC). In that he seemed like a nice, affable person, indeed all the politicians on that program came across pretty well (maybe it was because they only had prepared statements for the first hour and afer that, they had to ad-lib, and actually sounded like real people).
John"
Totally agree, John. It was so refreshing to see a few politicians debate without trying to score political points. They even had a laugh together! I thought it was great.
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I think the 'dual mandate' comment was most appropriate as Bain fought the Glasgow NE by-election on devolved issues not on Westminster ones as it should have been.
Backlash to the Queen's speech is coming from both Labour and the Tories. Doesn't make good reading for Labour in the 'nationals' today.
It looks like the whole edifice is falling about Brown's ears.
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Presumably if the SNP had won the by-election, Mr Slamond wouldnt have mentioned it - just dutifully answered the questions put to him clearly and concisely, just like he always does. Aye,right
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I've no objection to Willie Bain being in the public gallery of his country's parliament.After that though,he goes down to that sad,corrupt,neo-Gothic London club by the Thames that routinely suppresses the truth about the extent of Scotland's oil wealth.Oil wealth that would transform every Labour constituency in Scotland as that party well knows.
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8. run
That's ok. He has to put up with the cyberbrits and we cybernats are at least generally a pretty civil lot.
Can you say the same?
Nope. Thought not.
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Willie Bain's smile seemed and continues to seem a bit plastic to me; that said I believe there were external forces at work to achieve that by-election victory.
Did not witness the aforementioned parading of Mr Bain; however I did witness the 'press conference' with the Secretary of State for Scotland Jim Murphy' Ian Gray Labour Leader in Scotland and Willie Bain' Westminster glove puppet; clear for all to see how the Glasgow NE Labour vote was mustered as was the case with the previous incumbent Michael Martin.
To the real meat of the thread; I don't think Craig Levine wants the job' but he would have to reject it in such a manner that he would be able to accept any future overture.
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If I didn't know any better Brian, I would say you are a Labour supporter.
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2. Brownedov
"Socialist Labour stood only in 2005."
That probably explains people's confusion in the election, since they hadn't seen that party name before. The ONLY explanation I can see for the results of Socialist Labour getting 4,000 votes is voter confusion that most of those people thought they were voting Labour, which means Labour had a very substantial drop in percentage for this bye-election.
That means that in 2005 the correct percentage of Labour votes was about the same as 1997 which probably makes perfect sense. I had wondered about what had appeared to be a large Labour drop between 2001 and 2005, which no one was mentioning.
Someone in the MSM should have kind of--noticed this. Doncha think?
I don't know about WarDog's supposition that an equal drop across Scotland would give the SNP the 20 seats that Mr. Salmond has been talking about. I'd like to see Oldnat's take on this. I really don't do statistics. ;-)
Heh. Yes, I meantioned WarDog's tendency toward "frankness" so I also don't usually link there, but this information was something I thought people should see. It rather changes the complexion of the election. Amazing what CORRECT analysis does.
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Today, unusually, I caught FMQs on TV. The level of debate from Gray almost seemed deliberately to portray the chamber at Holyrood as embarrassing. It mainly succeeded in showing him to be embarrassing. Because Labour held their safest seat (with less of a vote this time) isn't exactly burning evidence that Salmond is "losing it". Gray brings the standards down to that of the brainless name calling you hear in the playgroud. However, you can get more reasoned, structured debate from primary school children.
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12. mistydougie
"Oil wealth that would transform every Labour constituency in Scotland as that party well knows. "
This oil wealth you mean? The oil wealth that Westminster likes to say does not belong to Scotland and that the certain news outlets like to pretend is running out... as they've been saying for the last TWENTY years. The one where they keep finding NEW discoveries?
That oil wealth?
Tornado Discovery
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I dare say the SNP would surely have made something of it if their man had won in GNE. But I don't remember John Mason turning up at Holyrood to taunt Labour after being elected (correct me if I am wrong).
What this demonstrates once again is that the most important thing to Labour in Scotland is to BEAT THE SNP. Not to run the country well, not to improve things with creative policy suggestions. (I believe that youth crime, repeat offending and excessive drinking are all problems in Labour constituencies...and what Labour suggest to do about it is....???) The party matters more than the people. After all, they really are the people, aren't they....?
Remember Wendy Alexander apologising to the Labour party conference for 'getting it wrong in Scotland'...not, er, apologising to the electorate; apologising to the party. That's the way round they see the world, and it entirely explains this bizarre vignette.
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I thought Willie Bain was on his way to Westminster, or perhaps Willie Bain turned up at the wrong Parliament? Afterall Willie Bain campaigned on issues that Holyrood controls, so it makes no difference since Bain was elected as an MP to Westminster.
I do find it strange that an MP was brought to Holyrood, or is it that Scottish MPs do not actually have that much work that they can spare a few days elsewhere?
Perhaps Willie Bain should be asking his boss to reverse the Labour cuts imposed on Scotland instead of taunting the SNP, that would of course bring better benefits to the people he is suppose to represent.
To Run comment #8,
John Mason never turned up at Holyrood, what makes you believe David Kerr would have arrived if elected by the people of Glasgow North East?
It's quite nice to see outsiders post on these boards but at least use facts when you decide to swipe someone.
Thanks.
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19. mince and mealie
"I don't remember John Mason turning up at Holyrood to taunt Labour after being elected"
I did a Google search and as far as I can find--you are CORRECT.
He apparently did not turn up and this did not look particularly appropriate. Moreover, I thought Mr. Salmond's reaction was pretty reasonable given the circumstances. Had Willie Bain NOT shown up at Holyrood it would have been different. By why ELSE was he there?
Oh, we know. To try to stick it to the SNP. But for a party that went down that much in the vote... 12,231 votes to Mr. Martin's 19,000 assuming the Socialist Labour or even compared to the 15,000 without those It frankly wasn't much to brag about.
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#17. vere-scribo
Absolutely right about Gray.The man who rewrote the rules of the art of debate.I refer of course to his inspired idea of tearing up your opponents' manifesto.
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18. You really should read what you link before you post.
Pre-drill estimates were for Tornado to have 90million-100million barrels of oil equivalent recoverable.
That is a very small oilfield, barely a quarter of the size of the Buzzard field (the last discovery of any real volume, back in 2001) which, in turn, brings in just 70m barrels a year out of a total 1.3bn barrels.
Even combined, the UK section of Tornado plus Buzzard can't dent the annual drop in production, which has been decreasing year on year since 1999. Production is now down 50% on that year and still dropping.
(source: RBS Oil and Gas Index 'invented' by none other than Himself).
Salmond sells you his 'dream' of an Oil Fund and you nationalists, as usual, listen-believe-repeat without question despite the facts screaming how infeasible it is.
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Brian,
If bank woe is going to be doing any haunting then it'll be of Gordon Brown next June.
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23. Reluctant-Expat
"infeasible"
CyberUnionist World (how's your readership?), where great delight is taken in denying obvious situations as they apply everywhere else, and twisting them to be an attack on nationalists when applied to Scotland? What a sad hobby!
Scotland couldn't have an oil fund...LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5leiwEiTM
What a cartoon.
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#20 Thomas_Porter
'John Mason never turned up at Holyrood, what makes you believe David Kerr would have arrived if elected by the people of Glasgow North East?
It's quite nice to see outsiders post on these boards but at least use facts when you decide to swipe someone.'
The fact that they did NOT bring Mason does not automatically mean they would not have brought Kerr. I personally think that winning Glasgow NE would have been a bigger SNP achievement than winning Gla East - hence they maybe would have brought Kerr along. In the end, I can't prove you wrong and you can't prove me wrong...
I don't usually comment here as there is too much hatred about - Labour demonises the Nats and the Nats demonise Labour/Westminster.
When really, we know they're all as bad as the other.
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7 - SCHOOLTIE: Seems to be the consensus among the few people I associate with who are as interested in politics as I am in my neck of the woods (East Edinburgh) that the Labour hold was a foregone conclusion and that no other party had a hope of winning.
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Online Ed Here
It's come to something when three quarters of Brians blog is given over to a visit by Willie Bain to Holyrood.
The 'thumping' by Labour is now being given some proper analysis and all is not what we are being told it is.
As others have pointed out, Labour's real vote in 2005 was 67% - this was due to voters mistakenly voting for Socialist Labour instead of the speaker - over 4000 of them.
The implications of the result are still unclear given the close proximity to the general election, however one thing that is certain is that Labour's core vote continues to erode.
That the SNP increased their vote share by a small amount was only a saving grace, they would have expected more of a swing. However, whilst the SNP have acknowledged the disappointment Labour continue to whistle in the dark.
Such a 'wonderfull' campaign with a 'well liked' local man and a media that hammered the SNP candidate still saw a real terms swing to the SNP.
Also:
At FMQ's Tavish Scott again blundered by criticising the levels of pay in quango's; many levels that the last administration negotiated.
Comment 7:
There seems to be an increased level of interest with no real partisan points being made. I have to admit that it is difficult to guage the loyalty of many of the people [mostly mid twenties to mid thirties], which is a good thing.
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#23: Reluctant-Expat -
Didn't you flounce off a while ago, proclaiming you'd had enough of us and if we still wanted independence, 'hell mend ye', (or words to that effect)?
What changed your mind?
And while you're busy rubbishing other people's stories - whatever happened to those huge, tidal power schemes that you announced were going to be built in England, that would knock the bottom out of Scotland's renewables market? How are they coming along?
Personally, I've a strong suspicion that the Tornado sidetrack will generate a darned site more revenue over the next few years than those barrages you were boasting about.
What do you reckon?
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Run:
#26.
I can prove you wrong because there is no reason whatsoever to suggest the SNP would have brought Kerr at all. Your making up stories and practically lying in order to make cheap political points on no basis other then your opinion.
The SNP do not need to taunt Labour by bringing an MP to Holyrood, they can do that at Westminster, can't they? So why go to Holyrood at all?
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I don't have a problem with Bain being in Scotland today. The UK Parliament was the English Parliament today, as it was debating English education. When it comes to a vote, Bain will vote for what is to happen in English schools. I'm sure his constituents will approve.
His appearance in the SP today was a stunt. Parties do such things. I doubt that voters are impressed or otherwise by them.
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Ian Gray is a dead-ringer for a 1950s ladies' corset salesman. Unfortunately he sounds like one as well. What is it with Labour nowadays? None of them can talk without making a hyena squirm.
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28. The 'thumping' by Labour is now being given some proper analysis and all is not what we are being told it is.
Given "proper analysis" by whom? Some nationalists by any chance?
Oh look, the "analysis" has heavily favoured the SNP. What a shocker.
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32. ellow
"Ian Gray is a dead-ringer for a 1950s ladies' corset salesman."
What have you got against corsets?
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Yesterday Mr Bain was in London today he is in Edinburgh. Did he travel by train to reduce his carbon fotprint? Of courtse not. And now that he is travelling at our expense why should he! Although give him his due he did travel by bus to Glasgow Airport on the way to London thus underlining the fact that the bus service is more than adequate and GARL is unecessary. Nice of him to show, albeit belatedly, his support for the SNP's decision to cancel GARL.
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One only has to look at the population of Glasgow North East, highest unemployment, highest percentage on benefits etc., etc. I suppose if New Labour were to put a monkey up for election, it would probably be elected. I only hope that the intelligencia of Glasgow North East realise that the new MP will vote whatever way Gordon Brown wants him to vote and care not for the voters who voted him into such a financial rewarding job.
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Wow... Shocker. Not.
The Labour party did this exact trick with Lindsay Roy, sat him in the gallery and poked Salmond with the "look who we invited" jibe.
It's childish in the extreme - Perhaps someone can tell me, did the Scottish Government ever invite John Mason to Holyrood to rub it in Labours face? I don't remember seeing it if they did and I'll be honest - I'd have thought it a cheap stunt if they had.
I'd always have dscribed myself as a moderate, but I have nothing but spite for Labours childish catcalling and oneupmanship. It's truly pathetic to see a party once revered as the moral conscience of Scotland descend into unapt, puerile politicking.
A disgrace to what an opposition should be.
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It will be interesting to see what Mr Bain puts down in his time sheet today.
Let’s see -
- attending to the needs of underprivileged children in my constituency
- out on duty with the police to appreciate the problems they face policing a deprived area
- visiting a hospital to gauge the view of my constituents on the care they receive
- or out for a jape with the regional Scottish labour leader to make a cheap jibe at Scotland's government
Back to the evolution debate I think!
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37. GAberdeen
"The Labour party did this exact trick with Lindsay Roy"
I wonder if they'll do the same after the UK GE? Everyone anticipates that Labour will win most Scottish seats. Are they going to troop them all into the public gallery of the SP to "look down" on the MSPs and jeer at them?
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29. How's that independence campaign going for you? Only 24% in support now? And that's before a third option has even been added? This 24/7 nationalist effort on the blogs is really paying dividends, eh.
Oh, I checked the Nat Con the other day and it was just TWO people leaving comments over the past week. I'm surprised the moderators of that board can keep up. There's been more talk on this blog in the past hour than on that farce in the past few months.
You've just reminded me to check the online petition that's been doing the international rounds for the past two years.....Today's total? 905 signatures. Wow. Awesome.
So, to summarise - plummeting polls, no interest in the SNP blogs and a number of signatures equivalent to a whopping 0.01% of the Scottish population on the worldwide petition.
Did you know Labour has got stronger support in London than independence has in Scotland?
Anyway, to the topic in hand: Do you mean the tidal barrages and lagoons HAVEN'T been built in the past 4 months? Aye, that surely means they're never going to be built now.
With the ten new nuclear power stations being accelerated through planning processes south of the border, I don't see the neighbours needing the vast amounts of Scottish-sourced renewable energy that Salmond is quoting. And that's IN ADDITION to the many offshore/onshore windfarms and tidal barrages/lagoons being planned and built.
Surely Salmond wasn't exaggerating about the external market for renewable energy in yet another futile attempt to gather support for independence....was he?
One small oilfield to be worth more than all the tidal energy schemes south of the border? You and Reality aren't even in the same time-zone, are you.
Sigh.
Anyway, thanks for turning up as it was getting quite stale again in here. Good on yer!
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#26 run
"I personally think that winning Glasgow NE would have been a bigger SNP achievement than winning Gla East - hence they maybe would have brought Kerr along."
If I understand your argument, you're saying that hanging on to Glasgow NE should have been easier for NuLab than Glasgow E. Accordingly, Curran's losing Glasgow E by a whisker is a better performance than Bain hanging on to Martin's trough. Ergo, Curran is a less awful candidate than Bain. Yes, I think I can go along with that.
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A few observations about Glasgow North East, from someone who was there.
The SNP needed more bodies on the ground than they could raise, before the official announcement of the by-election. Parties, these days, rely on targetting 'their' vote early and then hitting their target market with literature, doorstep visits, phone canvassing - to make sure they get their vote out. For whatever reason, we got off to a slow start, didn't get enough of 'our' voters identified early enough and failed to build momentum.
There is no such thing as a 'phoney war' in by-election campaigning. This contest started the day Michael Martin stood down and we weren't able to capitalise on this. Possibly because the lead time was so long, it's hard to sustain momentum for seven months, when nothing's happening.
People weren't prepared to take SNP posters and display them in their windows or gardens. Anecdotally - and I offer no evidence for this, so take it as you like - because they were worried about having their windows put in.
Without enough headway early on, without the cohesive, 'aspirational' appeal that we were able to sell to voters in GE, without any evidence - posters etc - that we were making progress - we were sailing into a strong headwind from the word go. People in GNE believe what other people in GNE say, and not enough of them were ever saying that they were going to vote for us.
Labour, as other posters on here have been good enough to acknowledge - held what they had, with a slight reduction in their vote. They never had to do any more than that, and didn't try to. Their campaign was focussed entirely on negating any progress we might make.
In the words of Seasick Steve, they "started out with nothing and they've still got most of it left."
Lessons to be learned - get your voters ID'ed early - branch by branch, constituency by constituency. This is already happening across Scotland, ready for next year's GE. Labour won't be able to run such a negative campaign nationally. They won't be able to pass themselves off as the 'opposition party' nationally. The national electorate hasn't had all its hopes and aspirations beaten out of them, they way many in GNE have.
A neglected child learns not to cry because crying doesn't bring comfort.
Nearly two-thirds of the electorate stayed silent in this by-election.
What does that tell you?
It's time.
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#34 oldnat
I see that YouGov has a new Welsh poll out:
If there were to be a referendum tomorrow on giving the National Assembly for Wales increased law-making powers, how would you vote?
More powers
For - 51%
Against - 30%
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#40: Reluctant-Expat -
Dear, dear R-E, you've no idea how much I've missed your 'contributions'. Resorting to your usual tactics, I see - first body swerve the question, second produce a series of baseless 'pronouncements' from on high without ever, even once deigning to back them up with anything that - say, a thinking seven year old with a reasonable grasp of english - would consider 'evidence'.
Anyway - a couple more questions for you to ignore.
1. How many organisations - i.e. councils, universities, public bodies, charities, community groups - do you think have contributed to the National Conversation? And, when these bodies contributed - do you think they logged onto the website as Reluctant-EastLothianCouncil or similar - or did they put their contributions in in writing? (You know, like grown-ups do)
2. How many people do you think have attended National Conversation events up and down Scotland over the last two years? (That is, people who are allowed out without running the risk of breaching their restraining orders) - more or less than 905. Take a wild (Is there any other kind, with you) guess?
Something for you to chew over, between now and whenever it is that you next strop off in a huff.
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#40: Reluctant-Expat -
"Do you mean the tidal barrages and lagoons HAVEN'T been built in the past 4 months? Aye, that surely means they're never going to be built now."
Whereas the reverse is bound to be true, isn't it? The fact that they haven't been built to date absolutely, cast-iron, copper-bottom, dead cert GUARANTEES that they'll be up any day now.
Logic?
Sigh.
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44. Which question didn't I answer?
And don't you know how to find the polls, the Nat Con, the online petition etc. for yourself?
Here's a helper for you: http://tinyurl.com/yzyunmd
Anyway, you keep believing that nonsense. Whatever gets you through your day.
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40. Reluctant-Expat
"Only 24% in support (of independence) now?"
Yeah, right (one away from your favourite number yesterday = magic 8 ball on overdrive?), you've probably just kazoopled support for it with that! Congrats. :-)
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And isn't "first body swerve the question, second produce a series of baseless 'pronouncements' from on high without ever, even once deigning to back them up with anything that - say, a thinking seven year old with a reasonable grasp of english - would consider 'evidence'." your average nationalist post?
Shall we scroll up the page together and see?
LOL, who do you think you're kidding?! Get out of here!
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43. Roll_On_2010
"I see that YouGov has a new Welsh poll out"
Thanks for the tip. I see that legislative powers for the Assembly has a majority across every area of Wales and all the demographic groups. It has 50% + in all categories except N Wales and those aged 55+.
That's quite a staggering result when you thing of the tiny margin by which the Welsh supported devolution in 1999.
Back to BTs point on the previous thread on "devolution like evolution".
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Breaking news:
Blair out of EU President race
Tony Blair is out of the running as Europe’s new President after Gordon Brown said he was switching his support to another Briton - EU Trade Commissioner Baroness Cathy Ashton.
Ho dear Teflon Tony stabbed in the back again by Duff Gordon.
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#46: Reluctant-Expat -
"Which question didn't I answer?
Well, both of the questions in my #44, for a start.
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51. Oh, for crying out loud. Look, you're clearly struggling and it's not in my nature to kick a man when he's down. And it's certainly not in my nature to kick a man while he's rotting on a mortuary table.
My best to your family.
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"Blair out of race to be EU president"
Yeah, but he is a big UK icon, he stops traffic and he is friends with dubja!
UK has influence in EU!
He's known in US!
But, he's a war crim....
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<RICHPOST>#48: Reluctant-Expat - <BR /><BR /><quote><i>"LOL, who do you think you're kidding?! Get out of here!"</i></quote><BR /><BR />Well . . . aren't you the veritable Occam's razor of wit and rhetoric this evening. "LOL", indeed. <BR /><BR />Anyway, a couple more quick questions for you. A nice easy one to get you going - will the number of people attending the National Conversation event in Bishopbriggs tonight be higher or lower than "TWO"?<BR /><BR />This one's a little trickier - in a previous thread you were awfully keen to tell us that the 'SNP's own' figures showed that an Scottish Energy Fund wouldn't generate more than £200 million after ten years. These were the "SNP's own" figures, you kept saying (Although, as ever, you were <i>just</i> a little bit reticent when it came to telling us your sources, weren't you?)<BR /><BR />Anyway, to the chase, why does your £200 million figure (The "SNP's own'") lest we forget, differ so (By more than half) from the figures published in the Scottish Government's National Conversation Paper on an Oil Fund for Scotland? (The Scottish Government and the SNP, incidentally, are actually two different things. I know this pains you but it's true.)<BR /><BR /><a [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]">Figure 11's</a> the one you're looking at, by the way.<BR /><BR />According to you - the 'SNP's own' figures say £200 million.<BR /><BR />According to the National Conversation paper, the Scottish Government's estimate is £344 million.<BR /><BR />Why don't you just take us through the reasons for that variance, when you have a moment.<BR /><BR />Evidence? Basis?<BR /><BR />Sigh. </RICHPOST>
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#52: Reluctant-Expat -
"[I]t's certainly not in my nature to kick a man while he's rotting on a mortuary table."
Delightful though that insight into your hobbies is . . . I can't help but notice, you still haven't answer either question.
Cat? Tongue?
Sigh.
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If Labour had any sense they would keep Willie Bain out of the public eye. He is an embarrassment to politics in general, with his salesman smile and "double thumbs up".
The orc reference I like, but let's have some suggestions to what LOTR characters our main players resemble.
All for charity of course..............
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52. Re: "it's not in my nature to kick a man when he's down."
Actually, it is. But no malice is intended! Just having fun, y'see.
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Boy does it not make you feel warm to be part of the union.
Brown refuses to rule out tax hike as public borrowing heads for record £200billion
■ Borrowing hits record £11.4bn in October
■ Darling's £175bn forecast for 2009 now in doubt
■ Brown refuses to rule out more tax rises
■ OECD: No room for pre-election handouts
■ Unemployment to climb to 9.5% and peak in 2011
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A good summary.
Yes, Mr Gray, that said it all
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- my #54.
No idea what happened there -
Anyway, let's try it again, with some of the HTML taken out
#48: Reluctant-Expat -
"LOL, who do you think you're kidding?! Get out of here!"
Well . . . aren't you the veritable Occam's razor of wit and rhetoric this evening. "LOL", indeed.
Anyway, a couple more quick questions for you. A nice easy one to get you going - will the number of people attending the National Conversation event in Bishopbriggs tonight be higher or lower than "TWO"?
This one's a little trickier - in a previous thread you were awfully keen to tell us that the 'SNP's own' figures showed that an Scottish Energy Fund wouldn't generate more than £200 million after ten years. These were the "SNP's own" figures, you kept saying (Although, as ever, you were just a little bit reticent when it came to telling us your sources, weren't you?)
Nevermind, to the chase, why does your £200 million figure (The "SNP's own'") lest we forget, differ so (By more than half) from the figures published in the Scottish Government's National Conversation Paper on an Oil Fund for Scotland? (The Scottish Government and the SNP, incidentally, are actually two different things. I know this pains you but it's true.)
I can't post the link (Maybe that was what scoobied up my post the last time) but you know your way round the National Conversation website so well, you'll have no problem finding it)
Figure 11's the one you're looking at, by the way.
According to you - the 'SNP's own' figures say £200 million.
According to the National Conversation paper, the Scottish Government's estimate is £344 million.
Why don't you just take us through the reasons for that variance, when you have a moment.
Evidence? Basis?
Sigh.
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Losing it?
Labour certainly are.
First Harperson getting her collar felt by Old Bill the Blair getting slung out of the European presidency on his derriere!!
Now that is "LOSING IT"
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#60 Bandages_For_Konjic
You probably had trouble with your link because it was a pdf document.
You can open the (pdf) document From Here
The following two bulleted point from Chapter 2 The UK Oil and Gas Sector Summary look promising:
Since 1970, approximately 40 billion barrels of oil equivalent (boe) of oil and gas have been extracted from the UK Continental Shelf (UKCS). Production has fallen since 2000 but between 15.5 billion and 25.0 billion boe have still to be extracted.
Rising prices mean that the value of the remaining reserves on the UKCS has increased significantly. The US Energy Information Administration forecast that oil prices will average $105 a barrel over the next twenty years. This compares to an average price of $41 a barrel over the previous 20 years.
The Contents can be found Here
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19. mince and mealie
Absolutely spot on!
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Some of the stuff posted here is a bit trivial, who cares who sat where and in which Parliament.
What about comment on matters that are going to affect us all in a big way.
Example, the news today that the fiscal deficit of the month of October is an eye popping £11.4 billion.
No other government in the developed world has a hole in its finances this big.
The country has been ruined and we will all be the poorer.
Perhaps we should discuss whether Labour should allowed to lose the next election and those responsible scurry off to lucrative jobs in the City or might we let them continue in government and made to face the wrath when the consequences of the damage unfold.
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Brian it's nice to see you in such bullish form supporting your team and even finding room to mention Dundee United :O)
I think you were mistaken about Willie Bain being in the public gallery though, those grey school shorts and that beaming smile can be deceiving but I think you'll find it was Jimmy Krankie.
Willie was in Eck's office with Jim Murphy sewing prawns inside the curtain hems.
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Britain's Bubble Economy (Shh, don't tell anyone)
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#64 rochcarlie
I already did Here
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Rochcarlie:
#64.
Your quite mistaken. Great Britain is best placed to handle the recession, did you not listen to Gordon Brown?
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#39 oldnat
"Are they going to troop them all into the public gallery of the SP to "look down" on the MSPs and jeer at them?"
You know what, I wouldn't put it past them. Fear drives a party to do things like this. It's what we've come to expect from the joke of an opposition that labour Provide. They can't score substansive concessions at FMQ's so gloating and goading with prize turkey's like Bain are all they are good for.
I remember when the SNP were the opposition - they took the fight to Labour on thier policies and thier flawed rhetoric - contested and overturned the popular myth that Labour was the sole bearer of Scotland's political lifeblood and managed it without resorting to soundbites, spin or turkeys perched in galleries. Henry Mcleish - for all his faults was 100 times the politician Ian Grey is and 1000 times the FM that Grey will never be.
Goldie is the opposition at Holyrood, not Grey. Grey should wake up to that fact before acting like a spoilt child becomes his political legacy.
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Best thing that could happen is that Labour win the next election by a very slim majority and implode after the first stringent cost cutting budget imposed by the IMF.
Let them stew in it.
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I posted this on the previous thread before realising everything had moved over here.
I think that the Calman tax should perhaps be a ratio of income tax rather than Xp in the pound.
If it is 10% of all the tax bands then that would mean it is half the basic rate, a quarter of the higher rate, and a fifth of next year's top rate.
I think for seperate taxes to work, someone would have to work out, what percentage of government expenditure in Scotland stems from Westminster departments, and what percentage stems from Holyrood, and then split taxation along those lines.
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A quote from an oil expert on BBC's own "Scotlands Oil?", shown last year.. " We have been at at full production almost continually for the last 30 years, if we continue at full production with our existing, exploited oilfields, will run out in another 30 years"
This was confirmed by various other oil industry insiders on the program. The fact is, yes it is running out, everything is finite. 30 years though, and just in the fields we're drilling, no wonder they're supressing and distorting the truth.
They said we had 30 years production in 1970, yet the brainless, spineless, cowards that call themselves unionists, still think we are better off in this corrupt, imperialist, bottom heavy, excuse for a diplomacy.
Grasp the thistle Scotland, independence isn't just the answer, it's your duty.
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72 Sorry, typo, before the usual unionist spellcheck brigade pounce, diplomacy should have been democracy.
And while I'm here, someone mentioned our production dropping, this is because of our membership of OPEC and the prices of oil, nothing to do with the reserves.
So let's get out now!
While we still have the resources to do it successfully, let's invest in our huge renewable potential while we still can, or face the prospect of scrabbling for crumbs from the Wesminster table for eternity, once OUR oil does eventually run out.
Rant over, goodnight.
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#72 gentlemanheelander
As a man who makes his living by understanding precisely what oil and gas measurement means for an Oil and Gas company's profits and the fiscal purse of the UK Exchequer, let me be the first to agree 100% and direct you to one of my previous posts (#180) on "knives out for the SNP Budget" Where I go into the subject in far greater detail.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/briantaylor/2009/09/knives_out_for_snp_budget.html#P
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73. gentlemanheelander
"diplomacy should have been democracy."
Both work!
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If Reluctant-Expat wants evidence that the British state works constantly at massaging figures to dish the Nats, he(she?) only needs to view the excellent documantary Diomhair, made for BBC Alba, and broadcast(in Gaelic) earlier this year.
Using documents freed under FOI, it reveals how, in the past, civil servants, MI5 and Special Branch were used by Westminster to obstruct and even sabotage the Scottish Nationalist movement and how successive governments used and abused their power to keep Scotland in the union and sabotage the causes of devolution and independence.
‘Dionhair’ also unearthed government files that showed how the police were diverted from catching criminals to spy on legal and peaceful demonstrations; how the will of two million Scots was defied by simply ignoring their demand for devolution; how Edinburgh Police encouraged young Nationalists to commit bomb outrages and supplied them with dummy explosives, and how evidence that an independent Scotland could be among the richest countries in Europe was stamped "Secret" and buried in the archives. They are still at it, and will be as long as they believe that there is a danger that Scotland will at long last wake up and smell the coffee.
What a pity that this documentary was universally ignored by the Scottish Media. It has been uploaded to Youtube and can be viewed at http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.org, under the resources button.
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73. At 11:16pm on 19 Nov 2009, gentlemanheelander:
The big problem we have with renewables at present are planning laws. We need to get away from windfarms unless they are offshore. East Kilbride has a huge field of them nearby. And it isn't always windy, and even when it is half of them are sitting idle. (Yes, I know about maintenance etc but surely not that much). Not an expert, but I'd suggest hydro-electric would provide a substantial chunk.
The other thing that should be considered is clean coal technology. We should not be dependent on importing our energy needs.
Two things can cripple a government when it comes to energy - excessive prices and blackouts. The biggest worry I have at present are excessive prices. I feel the energy companies are about to raise prices again. Just what we don't need in the current economic climate.
This is something that needs to be dealt with by both governments.
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Hows this for an oil rip off.
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33. Reluctant-Expat
"Given "proper analysis" by whom? Some nationalists by any chance?
"
So YOU come up with a rational explanation for those MYSTERIOUSLY disappearing 4,000 Socialist LABOUR votes.
Can't.
I thought not. ;-)
As usual, you're big usually big on jibes and short on logic.
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23. Reluctant-Expat
"Even combined, the UK section of Tornado plus Buzzard can't dent the annual drop in production"
And THAT, my friend, is the BEST argument one can come up with for Scotland getting what is left in an oil fund before the UK government p*sses away the REST of it.
That is less than the initial find, but still enough to make a good oil fund. Read it and weep.
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52. Reluctant-Expat
"Oh, for crying out loud. Look, you're clearly struggling and it's not in my nature to kick a man when he's down. "
In other words, you CAN'T answer his questions and refuse to try. ;-)
Yes, we know. We'll try not to kick you too hard while you're, as usual, down. You must enjoy keeping Iain Gray company.
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Let me just remind you all how insignificant some of the UNIONISTS think that North Sea Oil is:
North Sea ‘could haul UK out of huge debt’
Well, no doubt it could although since, as has been mention once or twice, IT IS SCOTLAND'S OIL but they won't use it for that anyway any more than they did in the past.
They'll p*ss it away trying to play big dog on the block, on foreign wars, Tridents, and keeping up with the neighbors (the US). Just like they always have.
And they'll play dirty tricks, just like they did with the McCrone Report to try to keep the Scots in the dark about the true situation.
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Brian you really need to at least try and pretend your not a thumping Labourite.
You totally fail to discuss the rather important point made by Annabel Goldie about the shocking levels of childhood malnutrition, and for 21st C Scotland that is frankly unaccepable.
Surely that line of questioning is a tad more relevent than Mr Grays unbelievably weak line of questions [can I call those contributions questions?]
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Further on malnutrition in Scotland, it seems that the SNP government is unsure about the extent of the problem. A real cause for concern:
According to the Scotsman:
"Nicola Sturgeon, the health secretary, also admitted the true scale of the problem could be even worse as the Scottish Government does not have statistics for those who die in care homes from malnutrition"
It seems that Goldie is entirely correct to seek the SNP executive clarifies this, as the first eight years of devolution under the infamous Lib-Lab pact apparently failed Scots in the battle for better diets.
p.s. I should point out that I'm 'deanthetory', I got bored of having 'tory' in my use display name, it tends to create an automatic bias from among bloggers. Anti-tory factors etc...
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I don't think anyone holds it against you that you're a Tory, Dean. In fact, you're generally pretty well liked from my observation. Of course, that's coming from an American and we never did have anything against Tories (oh, except for that War of 1812 thing). ;-)
That was a joke if a feeble one. Welcome back.
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84. Dean
I'm confused though. Aren't there standards of care in such homes. Surely people there shouldn't die of malnutrition.
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Here we go again Six MPs and peers face fraud charges in British expenses scandal and Tory MP David Curry quits key role amid expenses probe.
What is interesting is the latter of the two links which relates to Jacqui Smith and Tony McNulty who were only asked to apologise for their 'mistakes' by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner. Here is Jacqui Smith's apology to the house of commons and here is Guido Fawkes's interview with the BBC.
I wonder how David Cameron didn't know that Mr Curry, MP for Skipton and Ripon in North Yorkshire was thinking of resigning his post 2 months after taking on the job of chairman of Parliament's standards committee? Something seems strange here. Keep in mind that Jacqui Smith only gave her apology to the house of Commons last month.
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That makes it sound like I think other people should die of malnutrition, which is not what I meant, of course. No one should die of malnutrition. But I would expect some standard of care in such homes, and I wonder if she had no such statistics because no such deaths occur but she wouldnt say that until she confirmed it.
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Training, time and old folk who have forgotten how and why they eat.
The brain is an instrument that can detune itself from ordinary functions and if there is no one on one care the result can be malnutriton leading to even more malfunction.
And one on one care can really only be done by sacrificing a family member to the job, usually a daughter.
Can't see how the situation in either care homes or geriatric hospitals can ever be improved.
Sorry if this sounds harsh.
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# 84 Dean
Firstly, welcome back.
I should point out that I'm 'deanthetory', I got bored of having 'tory' in my use display name, it tends to create an automatic bias from among bloggers. Anti-tory factors etc...
In Scotland? Surely not ;-).
It seems that Goldie is entirely correct to seek the SNP executive clarifies this, as the first eight years of devolution under the infamous Lib-Lab pact apparently failed Scots in the battle for better diets.
I think that they failed the Scots full stop, not just over diets.
PS I tried to put your blog link onto my 'read blogs' but it failed. I don't know why.
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89. Diabloandco
"The brain is an instrument that can detune itself from ordinary functions "
That is true and especially with advanced Alzheimer's but that is something that should receive medical treatment. However, death in such advanced cases does not normally come from malnutrition is my understanding. However, we're getting outside the area of simply making sure that people have food available. These are difficult medical cases, not a matter of whether or not there is food.
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Article from Herald about cost of Holyrood:
26 MSPs employ their own relatives on staff.
One in five MSPs continues to employ members of their own family as staff – despite public outrage over the expenses scandal at Westminster.
I was especially drawn to this paragraph:
Mr Gray's claims included £3,450 paid to Silverfish Productions, which trained him for television interviews, showing him how to present himself and answer difficult questions.
I reckon he should get his money back it doesn’t appear to have worked.
It also appears that the FibDems hold the majority…. that is for he top spenders, with Tavish coming in at No.1.
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#83 Dean
Can I also echo previous bloggers, welcome back.
By the way I wont tell anybody you’re a Tory, if you don’t.
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Although I loathe Keith Viz this is the most sensible idea I have heard from this government in 12 years.
Ministers should give Gary McKinnon a job, says senior Labour MP Keith Vaz.
Gary McKinnon should be given a job by the Government rather than extradited to the U. S. , a senior Labour MP said last night.
The intelligence that enabled the Asperger's sufferer to hack into American military computers could be put to good use, according to Keith Vaz.
That is as long as he is used to help protect government IT systems from hackers and is not used to hack into other systems.
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92. Roll_On_2010
"Mr Gray's claims included £3,450 paid to Silverfish Productions, which trained him for television interviews, showing him how to present himself and answer difficult questions.
I reckon he should get his money back it doesn’t appear to have worked.
"
Is THAT ever true!
My understanding of the Westminster expenses scandal was that very little of the outrage was over the hiring of relatives. And by the way, in the US businesses sure as heck DO frequently hire relatives. Where the "businesses don't do that" came from, I don't know. Not true in my experience.
And of course people sometimes eat on an expense account. Ones food does NOT always come out of their salary. I'd be willing to bet a large percentage of the people have eaten on their company at one time or another--sometimes frequently.
As far as the totals, do you REALLY want to tell MSPs not to have constituency offices? I've seem them criticized for not. You can't have it both ways. Some of the ones with higher totals actually may be doing a better job. Or do constituency offices come free? I rather doubt it.
This to me has more the appearance of a witch hunt to be honest. Very few of these seem to be anything worth talking about.
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94. Roll_On_2010
"Gary McKinnon should be given a job by the Government rather than extradited to the U. S."
Well, he SURE as heck shouldn't be extradited to the US. Although federal prisons where he would be are often the better of our prisons, this man still should NOT be in a US prison and what idiot signed that extradition agreement? Do you KNOW how bad that agreement is from the UK side?
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There was a council by-election in Falkirk last night. Obviously the doomed SNP were contesting it - I wonder who won ?
As there has been no reports from BBC labour - I can guess.
Another episode proving the BBC are breaking their charter and no one should have to pay the licence fee.
I wonder what eric joyce will do next ?
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92.
To be fair to Tavish Scott et al, if you asked me to name the top ten MSPs by expenses claims, I'd probably put the MSPS for Shetland and Orkney at the top just on travel costs alone.
Likewise the top 5 on the lowest expenses list are all MSPs for the Lothians and can just hop on a bus at the end of a day at Holyrood.
While there are a few there that surprise me, I'm more surprised by the names that aren't on that list. Given that the MSP for Argyll & Bute isn't there.
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Bo'ness and Blackness by-election (Falkirk Council)
SNP win with 59% of the vote.
No real story here as it's solid SNP territory. 2007 results SNP 47% : Lab 24% : Con 13% : SSP 4%.
However on Iain Gray's own analysis, an SNP victory with an increased share of the vote in one of their own strongholds, demonstrates that he is "losin' it".
(See Ian Bell's sketch in today's Herald - not on the website yet - humiliating description of Gray at FMQ yesterday).
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#96 JRMacClure.
94. Roll_On_2010
Do you KNOW how bad that agreement is from the UK side?
I agree with the article:
Keith Vas has called for the extradition treaty between Britain and the U.S. to be reviewed following claims it is one sided.
Yep it’s a pretty crap treaty that favours the USA.
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This is several days old. I somehow missed this last sunday:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6917383.ece
Were these proposals discussed? I find them very interesting.
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#94 Roll_On_2010
On the subject of Gary Mackinnons extradition to the USA - may I draw attention to the following news article;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8239206.stm
For those of you who don't know - 5 US soldiers were found guilty of the rape and murder of a 14 year old Iraqi girl and her entire family. The brutality of all this is beyond comprehension.
Now as an ardent advocate of justice, I fail to see the distinction between trying Gary Mackinnon inside the USA for hacking computers from the UK - if the USA refuses to have it's own soldiers tried in a court in Baghdad for the appalling crime that these animals commited under the guise of "liberators"
The truth is, the Soldiers would probably be publically beheaded for thier crimes. If the USA cannot accept the possibility of thier own people facing the justice of another sovereign country then why the hell should we ever accept thier "justice" in ours?
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Alan Cochrane in the Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/6612203/Tavish-Scott-back-on-the-money-with-attack-on-quangoland.html
The credit for the investigation into quango salaries, of course should go to Kenneth Roy (a real journalist)
http://www.scottishreview.net/KRoy172.html
However, despite Cochrane's acerbic language, he is on the money about the "London versus Glasgow grievance" over no UK funding for the Commonwealth games.
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#92 roll on 2010.
what the hell is a labour politician in Scotland getting training on answering difficult questions for?
yet another waste of money !
fully agree the rest of the training was a waste of time
Sid
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Glasgow East by-election 2008.
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99. oldnat
"Bo'ness and Blackness by-election (Falkirk Council)
SNP win with 59% of the vote.
No real story here as it's solid SNP territory. 2007 results SNP 47% : Lab 24% : Con 13% : SSP 4%.
"
A very similar story to GNE.... OR is it?
Looks to me like the SNP percentage went up pretty 12%.
And in GNE the Labour vote went up--OR did it?
Perhaps I should go dig around in the dust bin for those mysteriously disappearing 4000 Socialist Labour votes. Since the news coverage ignored the issue--they must be here somewhere.
*rummage rummage*
=)
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100. Roll_On_2010
"Yep it’s a pretty crap treaty that favours the USA."
Oh, but we're best buddies, aren't we?
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102. GAberdeen
"If the USA cannot accept the possibility of thier own people facing the justice of another sovereign country then why the hell should we ever accept thier "justice" in ours?"
Because some IDIOT signed that treaty. And you might want to look into which idiots those were. Did I ever mention something about the US saying "jump" and the UK government asking, "How high please."
The fact that Holyrood stood its ground in the face of extreme pressure from the US was one of the things that converted me to a strong admirer of the SNP. Maybe they could give lessons to Westminster.... might be a good side income for Scotland.
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103. oldnat
"However, despite Cochrane's acerbic language, he is on the money about the "London versus Glasgow grievance" over no UK funding for the Commonwealth games."
I disagree because he was quite dismissive of the issue. It is or should be a serious one and he mentioned it in one throw away sentence as though Salmond were being unreasonable in criticizing it.
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A superb result for the SNP in the Bo'ness & Blackness ward by-election last night.A 6% swing from Labour to the Nationalists and the perfect antidote to Murphy and Gray's triumphalism of the last week.
Further electoral gloom for Tavish and the Lib Dems.They got just 3%.
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101. JRMacClure
Apart from one or two stories like this one in the press, there's been little discussion. I imagine most people, like me, are waiting to see the detail. I tried to find the details on the Government website, but couldn't see them there.
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#95 JRMacClure
I have no problem with regards MP’s/MSP’s employing family members to be employed as assistants/secretaries/researchers etc.
Providing that:
● It is transparent and open to scrutiny.
● The family member is fit for purpose.
● Some form of vetting/oversight is used to oversee such an arrangement.
My local MP’s wife works for him; they are both grafters and she runs his office and does most of the secretarial work for him…. I see nothing wrong with this, or any other similar arrangement. Their office is in the centre of town within his constituency and run in a professional manner.
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43 and 49 Oldnat and Roll on 2010
I can't find the Welsh survey on the YouGov site! Was it elsewhere you found it?
There must be a similar Scottish one due for imminent release, I took part a couple of days ago.
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109. JRMacClure
"I disagree"
It's important to understand the context. It's the direction of shift in Cochrane's article that matters. While he has to bear in mind his audience, he now regularly points out that in many policy areas it is the Unionists who are losing the argument. The very fact that he uses the term "Unionists" in the article instead of "Labour" is revealing.
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113. fencesitter1
http://www.yougov.co.uk/corporate/archives/press-archives-pol-intro.asp?submenuheader=1
The Welsh devolution poll is at the top of the list.
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114. oldnat
"It's important to understand the context. It's the direction of shift in Cochrane's article that matters. While he has to bear in mind his audience, he now regularly points out that in many policy areas it is the Unionists who are losing the argument. The very fact that he uses the term "Unionists" in the article instead of "Labour" is revealing."
An interesting point. I do agree that a shift in attitude is importand and while the comment was dismissive it wasn't an attack as one so often sees.
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#114 oldnat
It’s there top of the list:
19/11/2009 - Devolution [ ITV Wales ] ...
It only contains two questions, both about devolution.
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117. Roll_On_2010
"It only contains two questions, both about devolution."
Yes. That's the poll I was talking about. If you want to see the rather rare Welsh voting intention poll, it's further down the list. But this poll does have the numbers intending to vote for the 4 main parties as the weighted sample in the Party lists.
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#103 and others.
simple way to reduce the costs at the top of the quango's tree in fact the top of the tree and a good bit down.
I experienced it in my working life on more than one occasion.
the job becomes "de-listed"and given a new title ,the job description is changed slightly and the renumeration is of course reduced. the added bonus of course every one of them must re-apply for their own jobs and must justify their exsistence.
Common practise in the private sector, welcome to the real world ladies & gentlmen.
on the other hand how many people have these executives done the above practise to?
Sid
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#104 sidthesceptic
But you have to admit he needs all the help he can get. Unfortunately it’s the taxpayer who has to pick up the tab for this failure.
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Oldnat and Roll on 2010, thank you both, am clearly going daft!
I think you'll both find the Scottish one very interesting when it's available. There were more questions!
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120. Roll_On_2010
"But you have to admit he needs all the help he can get. Unfortunately it’s the taxpayer who has to pick up the tab for this failure."
I think the problem is that they focused on the wrong area. They taught him, one supposes, how to answer questions. The FMQs show that he is quite incapable of intelligently ASKING them.
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#118 oldnat
Sorry about my previous blog @ #117 it should have been directed to fencesitter1 @ #113.
If I remember correctly the Welsh YouGov voting intentions were discussed in a previous blog.
Have you looked at the ‘electoralcalculus’ site recently. They are predicting 10 SNP gains at the GE. This along with the current 7 they already have takes them to 17.
Constituency List: Scotland
This site is a bit peculiar in that the URL does not change with the selected page. You will have to select Scotland from the left hand menu.
What are your thoughts on the prediction?
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#122 JR ,morning , sorry i disagree, the problem sits with the rump of the Scottish journalistic fraternity. whether they are unable to do their job or they are scared to do their job or indeed have we lost the ability to challenge the Labour party on ANYTHING in this country no matter how pathetic they are?
Sid
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#122 JRMacClure
Lol….As Wee Eck said a few weeks ago… it does look as though he could soon be on his 4th Labour leader the way Gray is going.
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I note the SNP actually "thumped" the Labour Party in a by-election in the Falkirk area last night winning with almost 60% of the vote on the first count. And Labour were telling everybody they were winning the seat. It was actually almost a 10% swing to the SNP.
Politics is actually very perverse.
If reaction across Scotland is anything like reaction around here the Glasgow North East by election result has convinced many people that the electorate in that seat collectively "need their heads examined" so I think Labour crowing may be of very short duracity.
I have in fact been trying to post since last week but everytime I did so the text completely disappeared. Paranoia being a condition permanently afflicting most SNP members I feared the worst
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#123 Roll_On_2010
Electoralcalculus is as good as any, though I disagree with his methodology. The two big factors in the GE are whether the SNP as the Scottish Government has given them "legitimacy" at Westminster elections and what is going to happen to the LibDems. After Glasgow NE and last night's Falkirk result, you have got to wonder. electoralcalculus has chosen to answer Yes and Near Disaster. With those provisos 16 is a reasonable answer.
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#127 handclapping
Thanks. Unfortunately I am not into number crunching therefore have to rely on people like yourself, oldnat and Broenedov.
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#99 Labour had been 'monstered' by SNP's result. The people of Bo'ness and Blackness have spoken for all of Scotland. This was a message against PM Brown and against Labour. She celebrated with the soft drink Diet Irn-Bru.
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Falkirk Council by-election has appeared on BBC Scotland website:
Falkirk Council by-election
The party's Ann Ritchie took 58% of the first preference vote, while Labour took 30%, the Conservatives 10% and the Liberal Democrats 3%.
The results represent a 10% rise in the SNP vote in the area since May 2007.
Turnout for the poll was 23%, with 2,815 ballot papers cast, of which 2,789 were valid and 26 rejected.
It appears they are only giving the SNP a 10% increase on 2007 election.
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126. sneckedagain
Ah Just Because You're Paranoid, Doesn't Mean They're Not Out to Get ...
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124. sidthesceptic
"JR ,morning , sorry i disagree"
I was just pointing out that Iain Gray's questions in the FMQ are pathetic. :-)
No need to teach him to deal with difficult questions, since those are never asked.
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127. handclapping
"Near Disaster"
Only near, you think?
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SNP win in Falkirk? Good, mainly out of my own desire to see Labour decimated in Scotland forever [sorry to all those Labour fans, but that party stopped being the conveyor for political socialist radicalism a long time ago].
But...on another note, todays Herald has a frontpage story that my good friends the 'cyber nats' will wish to hear mentioned! John Swinney has been made Herald politician of the year.
Well deserved, not least because he did his job and has begun to make deeply unpopular but neccessary policies...Glasgow rail link cancellation for example. All neccessary, but Swinney has overseen it all despite the backlash from even within his own party.
But lets not praise the SNP too much [that wouldnt do at all!], I do reserve the right to criticise Salmonds annyoing habit of asking questions to himself and others in questions TO the first minister....trivial I know but its a pet hate..
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#133 JRMacClure
Tht's electoralcalculus' take on the situation, not mine. IMO all those who haven't been doing a good job in their constituencies are liable to fall so NE Fife could go. Ming and Smith (LDs) have not been putting in the hours, however Brocklebank (Con) is not the man to set the heather on fire.
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Third year on the trot for the SNP, Politician of the year. How can the ever so terrible and bad for us all SNP produce such sterling award winning politicians? Give us a wee blog on Swinneys award Brian. What are they doing so right to continue winning these awards in the face of such continued negative press? When can we expect to get a glencampbely (sorry i'm still unsure of the spelling) report on this story and how it's actually a reflection on well labour are doing in scotland?
TO be fair these awards probably dont mean much but it is quite refreshing to see a story on the BBC that is just stating the facts with no personal view point slapped right across it.
More of the same please. Much more.
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Online Ed Here
If you ever doubted the Scottish media's fondness for headlining whatever Jim Murphy says without any inclination to scrutinise him then click here.
I'm genuinely struggling to work out who the audience is supposed to be for this stuff. It's not just that Murphy is a purveyor of propaganda, that's why the role of Secretary of State was resurrected, it's that the propaganda is so clumsy.
I also think that he's in danger of believing that he is good at the job, caused of course by the Scottish media's refusal to pursue him on anything.
My core instinct still says that he is a liability and a turn off to undecided voters every time he appears on TV .... so every cloud eh?.
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The 'Arc of Insolvency' is Lucky!
""Britain's deficit will remain higher than any other major country, including even Iceland and Ireland, unless the Government takes far more drastic action to repair it, said the OECD's acting chief economist Jørgen Elmeskov.""
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123. Roll_On_2010
I think they may be a little behind the times on some of the apparent shift from SNP to Lab. However, if that shift is simply in the Lab safe seats, it won't affect the crucial marginals. My biggest difficulty with the site is that I'm not convinced they handle the decline in the LD vote accurately. It varies in character across Scotland, and electoralcalculus concentrates their polled data in their safest seats.
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'Just say yes'. Good victory for the SNP in Stirling.
The vote for the Libdems defies believe. An electorate of 11,999 and they can only find 79 to vote for them. That is 0.65%. I wonder what Tavish thinks of that.
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When is the BBC going to gives us decent reporting in Scotland? In this instance I'm talking about the flooding. The BEEB have had teams of reporters and continuous news from Cumbria but the only reporting we get for the flooding in Dumfries and Galloway is a sub-title on the screen. We have to wait for BBC Scotland news bulletins to get the Scottish side of things. I realise that circumstances are much worse in Cumbria but they are not insignificant in the Dumfries area too. Of course you could argue that they are used to it so it doesn't matter too much. BBC Scotland are so generous in their service to the Scottish public, viz., a one hour radio broadcast on the flooding in S West Scotland. A bit like the football coverage!
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#140 hadrianswall
Stirling being world reknown as the seat of the Stuart Dynasty - and a once proud nation being sold into bondage at the whim and fancy of the aristocatic gentry of the time?
Should one draw parallels with the modern era? The people of Stirling clearly already have ;-)
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This blog is a bit all over the place, still interesting though. Anyway I might as well put my tupence worth in on a few points. First of all I am a Nat Voter, might as well get that out the way. Wasn't always. Voted Labour in my firstvote to realise that if the Torries are in power ( Major at the time )then a vote for labour is an absoulute waste of time as when I was looking for them to stand up for Scotland, to stand up for me they just didn't. They then gave up all their principles to chase the centre vote in England and all but abandoned Scotland. I don't see that that has changed over the years.
The SNP are not perfect, but then they have only had a serious role in power for 3 years compared to what 70 years for labourin Scotland. For my way of thinking they just can't do any worse, and at the very least they will stand up for Scotland.
I am even not going to moan about the English, when the Torries get in next year, which they will, England will have voted for the party they want to govern them. The problem I have is two fold, they certainly will not represent the views of the vast majority of people in Scotland and no doubt a lot of Scots will vote Labour next year when we actually need Scotland to vote for the party that will stand up for Scotland. Weather you agree in seperation or not surely what will be vital is our voice being heard, sadly I just don't think that will happen. But I will live in hope that Labour voters after the next election will learn that labout gave up on you , on us, a long time ago. Sadly the voters in GNE haven't learned that lesson yet but I think within the next few years they will when they notice that you know what the Labour MP you voted in has changed nothing and is actually singing to the London labour tune.
The plus side is that most of the posters on this blog make good points for their particular beliefs, doesn't matter if I agree or not, it shows that we can have healthy debate even when the BBC abandoned that a long time ago and became the publicity section of the labour party.
Either way we are in for an interesting 12 months, the torries will be in power, jobs in Scotland in the public sector will start to go, services will start to become stretched and poor,local econmies which rely on low paid public workers will start to close as we have no money to spend but at least I will have another 4 or 5 years to watch labour MP's do nothing for me and mine, but they will be fine. They will have a job and a legion of voters who will vote for them not matter how crap they (Ian Gray) are while they try to rebuild their english vote. Then maybe the voters of this country will stand up and realise that anything other than a vote for the party that will stand up for Scotland interests is a wasted vote.
Well my rant is complete, I await my slagging from my fellow posters, I am even looking forward to Christmas.
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140. hadrianswall
"Good victory for the SNP in Stirling"
Unfortunately, Bo'ness is in Falkirk Council - not Stirling!
#142 GAAberdeen - I have no knowledge of royal dynasties emerging from Bo'ness. :-)
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Is it really three months since Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was released? How time flies.
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Post 19 M&M - para two.
Prediction: the Labour party will kill the minimum pricing on booze idea (Tories and Lib Dems already against it). Reason to be given by labour: the SNP will have failed to give sufficient answers to the questions raised by labour. And anyway the SNP are anti business and this will cause job losses in the Scotch whisky trade.
Never mind the health of the nation.....big business comes first with labour
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#144 oldnat
What about me?! 8-)
handclapping for President!
#143 Bruce206
Welcome. Sounds a reasonable rant to me. 8-)
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# 101 JRMacClure
I missed that article too. Maybe northighlander should follow your link and that may answer some of his questions. There is very little in these proposals that I would disagree with. If the tax rate falls I wonder if I would be able to register my business in Scotland while working in England to take advantage of the tax differences?
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143. Bruce206
"I await my slagging from my fellow posters"
I wouldn't disagree with your time scale. My main hope is that Labour's claim to be "Glasgow's party" comes true and they are wiped out by SNP and the Tories (Yes I know !!!!) outside their Glasgow/Lanarkshire heartland - that will marginalise them out of significance.
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145. albertobalsam
As is Ronnie Biggs.
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Labour to take food from children
"Well, if Stephen Purcell gets his way, anyway. He called today for free school meals to be abolished to pay for the Glasgow Airport Rail Link."
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#130 Roll_On_2010
"It appears they are only giving the SNP a 10% increase on 2007 election."
This is a good example of what those in the trade call gee-whizz statistics, and why Disraeli gave statisticians a bad name, plus a little glencambliness thrown in for good measure.
This website's SNP hold Bo'ness and Blackness council by-election seat states: "The results represent a 10% rise in the SNP vote in the area since May 2007."
In fact the statement is untrue on a number of levels. First, the actual votes cast for the SNP went down, as they did for Lab and Con, because of the lower turnout. Only the L-Ds actually increased their votes - to 79 - because they got no votes at all in 2007, not having bothered to put up a candidate.
What the 10% refers to is presumably the difference (actually 10.3%) between the share of first preference votes they received in 2007 (47.21%) and the share of first preference votes they received in 2009 (57.51%).
In plain English, the SNP increased their share of first preference votes by 21.82%, while both Lab and Con reduced their shares, viz:
Party, 2007, 2009, Change
SNP, 47.21%, 57.51%, 21.82% (2007: 2 candidates, both elected)
Lab, 31.94%, 29.51%, -7.62% (2007: 2 candidates, one elected)
Con, 12.72%, 10.15%, -20.21%
Other, 8.13%, 2.83%, -65.16%
The full results in PDF form are available from Falkirk Council's by-election results page, and the 2007 figures from their local election results page.
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#144. Oldnat, thanks.
I think I was getting my battles mixed up; Stirling and Falkirk.
Freedom
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"Scotland's future got just one sentence in the Queen's Speech – and even then there was no promise of legislation..."
Ian Swanson writing in the Edinburgh Evening News: http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/politics/Ian-Swanson-Despite--only.5843555.jp
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Cynical Highlander:
#151.
I must question if the idea proposed by Labour is actually do-able. Afterall, school meals is a council issue all over Scotland and all are suppose to work towards target, but have the option of spending that extra money on other projects.
Is GARL important for all of Scotland, that we must give up offering free school meals? Or is Glasgow attempting to get MORE for THEIR benefit?
To Purcell: Please shut up and sit down and understand we're in a recession, we're all in it together and we all must feel some pain of some sort.
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151. cynicalHighlander
Glasgow Labour - the party of big business!
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#151.
STEPHEN PURCELL THATCHER SCHOOL LUNCH SNATCHER
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151. cynicalHighlander
Better still! Here are the aims of the Bill
"The policy objectives of the Bill are:
• To stimulate economic growth in the West of Scotland by developing the capacity and capability of the national and regional rail network this goes ahead
• To contribute to a sustainable basis for the future growth of Glasgow and Prestwick Airports in terms of government and regional objectives for airport surface access; this goes ahead for Prestwick
• To support the sustainable regeneration of the M8 corridor and Ayrshire / Inverclyde corridors by developing rail capacity; this goes ahead
• To improve social inclusion and accessibility by connecting areas of low car ownership and high deprivation within west Scotland to economic opportunities at Glasgow and Glasgow Airport ; the bus service that Bain used is still there
• To provide a high quality, high capacity public transport service between Glasgow Airport, Paisley and Glasgow that will attract car and other users through offering a high quality, high reliability, safe, frequent service and competitive journey times; the Paisley/Glasgow section goes aheadand
• To provide public transport services to Glasgow Airport and in the M8 and Ayrshire Corridors that integrate with the existing transport network and allow for the future development of enhanced interchange opportunities with bus, car, rail, cycling and walking. the Paisley/Glasgow section goes ahead"
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Well, someone had to be a cynic among a nation of hypocrites...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8371339.stm
I'd be surprised if this sorry excuse for a man didn't have a countdown page on his myspace to the very second al Megrahi should have died.
Why is it Americans are deaf to the pleas of other nations regarding injustices? Why is it we always have to show respect to a nation that shows the rest of the world non in return?
The Americans are a queer breed of people - they talk about peace like they invented it yet can't stop arming the world through their MIC, juat as they say they embrace the freedom of speech - just so long as it doesn't advocate socialism. They vote for change but want things to stay the same.
Morons.
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I knew that it would happen but I wasn't sure how the media in Scotland were going to portray this. It looks like the BBC has come out first with their story on Al Megrahi. US Senator says Lockerbie bomber should return to jail
You have to ask yourself why the BBC in Scotland cares what a Democratic Senator from New York thinks unless, of course, they want to bring the story up that Al Megrahi hasn't died yet and hope to spin something against the SNP out of this.
I can't find anything by the BBC in another part of the UK apart from BBC Scotland.
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I know the SNP won a council seat, but it is not exactly headline news to be fair.
However, if the SNP support has gone up then that is a fair indicator of success. I wouldn't expect a huge increase in an area which seems to be fairly pro-SNP anyway. But they have managed to increase the vote anyway, so to say "only 10%" is a bit misleading.
151. At 5:28pm on 20 Nov 2009, cynicalHighlander:
I've read his blog before. It is informative but at times the tone mirrors the hard core unionist posts on other blogs. As for his comments about the proposed layout for GARL, what appears to be the best route is not always practical from an engineering point of view. And it is a bit of pot-kettle-black when Swinney wants to do away with free water and fruit for primary pupils.
On quangos, removing a quango sounds great. However, a government still needs to provide that particular service, either via a private company or return it to in-house. So you still have the cost of the service. A lot of misinformation was dished out by the media about quangos. They still report directly to Government. Network Rail is an example, and I think the DFID is as well.
143. At 4:31pm on 20 Nov 2009, Bruce206:
I think one question that has to be asked about Glasgow NE is what has changed for the majority of voters there? If Holyrood is granted the powers they need - ie financial - then this would give the SNP the opportunity to prove themselves. At present there is insufficient change to alter the mindset of many voters.
Many people distrust politicians anyway. They never deliver all that is promised. However, if the promises are delivered then people will sit up and listen.
Salmond today seems to be taking the offensive against media bias, by stating that a newspaper (?) published a picture of Megrahi that was in fact 3 or 4 months old. And he stated this in a calm, controlled voice - far more effective than his occasional blister.
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160. gedguy2
Emotional release for son as Ronnie Biggs is officially freed
3 months and 2 weeks!
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# 162 cynicalHighlander
Strange how a letter sent to Gordon Brown is released to the press. I wonder who released it?
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Scotland's only hope is independence......
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/business/global/21pound.html?_r=1&hp
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163. gedguy2
The BBC's newshound SoS!
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143. Bruce206
Enjoyed your post Bruce206
I'm the same - i started off voting Labour when I first came of age, but switched to SNP shortly after.
I share your hope that sometime soon, Labour voters will realize that it's over a decade ago that Labour abandoned not only the people of Scotland but their own principles, and that what Labour voters think they're voting for isn't what they're actually voting for.
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159. GAberdeen
*ahem*
Painting with a somewhat broad brush.
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139. oldnat
"However, if that shift is simply in the Lab safe seats, it won't affect the crucial marginals."
What shift is that, oldnat?
I didn't see Nationalists votes shift to Labour anywhere. Where did I miss that?
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135. handclapping
I think I was more asking how one would define disaster. ;-)
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168. JRMacClure
You can track it in the polls - eg Jun-Sep in YouGov. It's not massive, but the SNP is roughly back on parity with Labour compared to the early summer when SNP was opening a significant lead. We need to realise that the increasing focus on UK politics inevitably squeezes the SNP if people think there is a chance of Labour holding on against the Tories.
Hence why I've been extracting the English data from the UK polls to show that the Tories are on track for a big win in England.
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#167
My Apologies JRMaclure,
I forget that I have some decent American and Canadian friends who share my frustration with thier own country. Tarring you all with he same brush isn't called for.
Sorry.
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Defence spending in Scotland.
The SNP have already identified that Scotland gets significantly less return on this than our taxes deserve. The Unionists continually quote the aircraft carrier construction as a benefit, but it may be that this will be the last such defence order anyway.
This is a story to keep an eye on (hat tip Fubar Saunders on NR).
"RN Aircraft Carrier May Be Sold To India"
http://www.modoracle.com/news/RN-Aircraft-Carrier-May-Be-Sold-To-India_19276.html
"Last summer French president Nicolas Sarkozy proposed to Gordon Brown that the two navies co-ordinate the maintenance and retrofitting of their carriers, so that at least one of them is at sea at any time.
The government has accepted it would cost more to cancel the contract for one of the carriers than it would to carry on building. BAE Systems is also keen to increase its arms exports and would welcome the sale of such a flagship piece of hardware to a country such as India, which is keen to upgrade its military, particularly its air force."
and for a naval officer's take on it.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/17/carriers_now_for_india/
"As Webb is the Graun's industrial editor, and glovepuppeting of biz correspondents by big companies is the most common way for such stories to appear, we can probably take it that the tale emanates from someone in the industrial consortium building the ships, led by BAE Systems. This is the more so as the article repeatedly states that contract penalties would make it impossibly expensive for the government to cancel one or both of the ships, which is probably the main message that Webb's industry informant was trying to push.
As contract details on big defence bids are kept secret ("commercially sensitive"), it's always easy for the companies involved to make such claims, usually without any great fear of the MoD actually mounting any counter-argument. BAE claimed for many years that the government was firmly locked in to buying 232 of its horrifyingly expensive Eurofighter jets, a claim which has now been exposed as hollow following involvement by Treasury lawyers."
Whatever happens, it's clear that Britain's imperial ambitions outrun its budget.
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171. GAberdeen
"My Apologies JRMaclure,
I forget that I have some decent American and Canadian friends who share my frustration with thier own country. Tarring you all with he same brush isn't called for.
Sorry."
No worries. I do understand your frustration.
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170. oldnat
Ah, I thought you were talking about election results rather than poll results (as I tend to use the term polls for elections). Sorry. Yes, in the polling results I do see the squeeze you were talking about. Unfortunately, I think there may be some of that happening.
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172. oldnat
"Whatever happens, it's clear that Britain's imperial ambitions outrun its budget."
Did anyone doubt it?
All right. Stupid question. Obviously, some people don't doubt it but it's hard to see how if you live in the real world. I think the US imperial ambitions have outrun its budget, much less the UK.
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Here is part of an email I got from a friend who is campaigning to stand in the Dagenham seat as an Independent. It copies an email he received from a labour councillor in Dagenham
I think it illustrates completely the fact that the Labour party is about to,be almost totally wiped out in the south of England and it is only in Scotland that this silly story that Labour may yet win the next election is being spun by the "Scottish" media and swallowed by the unwise.
He says
Labour councilors are being deselected or resigning, around 20 in all. One of them has approached me, and is coming to my house tomorrow to chat
4) His email was;
A number of my ex-labour colleagues are also
seriously considering standing as Independent as they are also disallusioned in the
way the Labour Party has gone over the past few years.
As I will be standing for re-election next year on an Independent platform I thought
there may be some items you would like raised on a local platform that could support
you on your constituency programme.
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#137
I also believe that Jim Murphy has a negative effect every time he appears publicly so the more the merrier and I still question how a person who came straight out of student politics and into parliament without an intervening period working at anything anywhwere can be Secretary of State for Scotland.
However I see he got the award for "taking the fight to the SNP"
Pardon me, but I thought he was Secretary of State for Scotland with a brief to present Scotland's case in Westminster which would surely make the maintenance of a good relationship with the Scottish Government the number one political priority. The Herald has just given the game away. He is in a non job using about £8million per year of taxpayers money for a department which does nothing except attack the SNP
And he takes his Westminster food allowance EVEN when parliament is not in session, even when he is in China and even when he is in Scotland.
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176. sneckedagain
It seems that they are actually decent people who wanted to help their community, but have realised that the Labour Party deserted them long ago. There are still a lot of people like that in Labour in Scotland, but it looks like many of them are still conned by the leadership in Scotland who like to pretend that somehow "Scottish Labour" is different - while their MPs dutifully vote to deliver NuLab authoritarianism on England.
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Another Alan Cochrane article sympathetic to the SNP Government
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/6617019/Tackling-Scotlands-drink-problem-demands-effort-from-everyone.html
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179. oldnat
"Another Alan Cochrane article sympathetic to the SNP Government"
Not bad.
I hope the SNP stick to their guns with this - if the opposition want to to stop it, I want the SNP to make them do it.
The opposition claim to want better enforcement of current measures instead of minimum unit pricing, as though they are mutually exclusive. Expose them in the parliament, get it all in the public domain; the detail, the medical support, the consequence, all alongside the corporate and reactionary political opposition.
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The cyberbrits silence the opposition. Again.
Wardog obviously hit too close to home with his post pointing out the truth about the "Labour" victory. He had posted numerous personal attacks that went past the blogosphere.
Remember people, you are fighting real people with REAL POWER. Including the power to do you personal harm.
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101. JRMacClure
"This is several days old. I somehow missed this last sunday:
cuts contained in precursor to independence white paper
Were these proposals discussed? I find them very interesting."
Yes, very interesting - i'd like to see more flesh on the bones of what was given in the article, and i'd like to hear what those on the blog not already pro-independence or snp think of it. It seems a clear statement of intent as as far as what direction the SNP want to take an independent Scotland.
Also, no - i don't recall any discussion of it on these pages.
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181. JRMacClure
"He had posted numerous personal attacks that went past the blogosphere."
Let me clarify that--he posted on his blog about having received threats and attacks toward himself and his family and his job.
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182. mrbfaethedee
Some of it was very interesting, I thought:
It suggests cutting fuel prices for rural communities by following the example of France, which was given permission by the European Union in December 2007 to reduce duty on petrol in Corsica where prices were considerably higher than on the mainland.
The paper points out that a litre of unleaded petrol was 10p more expensive in Ullapool than in Edinburgh last month, and that higher fuel prices have “a disproportionate, negative effect on the economies of rural and island communities”, where people already face higher living costs.
It also claims that stamp duty dissuades prospective farmers from entering the industry and suggests relief from the tax to “encourage new blood and enterprise”.
The government also suggests cutting duty on whisky, which is taxed more heavily than wine or beer. It also claims that cutting income tax as a short-term measure could “stimulate aggregate demand by increasing household take-home pay or reducing firms’ after-tax operating costs”.
Why should whisky, essential to the Scottish economy, be taxed more heavily than wine or beer? The petrol idea should be of interest in the rural areas.
It would be interesting to see more details and see people discussing this.
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Online Ed Here
Comment 181:
I'll be posting an article on the Newsnet Scotland blog about the Glasgow North East by-election in a few days.
Nothing controversial, but an analysis of the by-election votes compared to 2005 - both Labour's real decline and of course the postal votes.
Having read Gerry Hassan's take on the result where he gives a swing to Labour, I feel that Gerry might like to re-evaluate.
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184. JRMacClure
"Why should whisky, essential to the Scottish economy, be taxed more heavily than wine or beer? The petrol idea should be of interest in the rural areas.
It would be interesting to see more details and see people discussing this. "
aye, northighlander has lamented the cost of fuel for rural scots on previous occasions, it's be nice to know what he (and others) think about it.
v. bad news re: wardog. Need to digest that one.
off for now though...
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186. mrbfaethedee
"bad news re: wardog. Need to digest that one."
I shouldn't have been shocked, but I must admit I was both shocked and indignant.
I seem to recall a certain Scot of whom some of you know who said something along the line of:
There's nane ever fear'd that the truth should be heard,
But they wham the truth wad indite.
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I seem to have been put into purdah on the politicalbetting site because of this
"The law says 3 months." [A poster there said about Megrahi] I replied
"It doesn’t. The guidelines in Scots and English Law are actually very similar.
The difference is that English Justice Secretaries routinely overturn Parole Board decisions for political reasons, while Scots Justice Secretaries never have.
You might like Scots Law to be like English rather than European Law - but it isn’t."
Difficult to see what anyone should think that should be moderated.
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That idiot NY Senator--my feeling about that story is that comments like that from Americans just tends to put people's backs up. I don't see that reviving any controversy although I'm willing to be corrected. Whether the "three month" thing will or not, I don't know. Mr. MacAskill never gave some three-month limit but quite a few people interpreted it that way.
I tend to think most people feel like it's over and done with whether they agreed or not. The SNP stood up and took the flak like real grownups. Whatever political damage (debatable how much it was) would seem to me to be done.
The reaction The Scotsman got to their one article on "he's not dead yet" might not encourage them doing it again. I didn't feel that was very well received by anyone.
But who knows?
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I think if the SNP make the case that by chosing to view the Olympics as British expenditure but the Commonwealths as Scottish expenditure, Glasgow and Scotland have been denied about £1bn in Barnett consequentials, money that could have covered the cost of the games including GARL and probably had money left over for other rail projects around the country, then they may be able to make dents in Labour's support in Glasgow and Renfrewshire.
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I see that Lucy Adams discussed al-Megrahi in her blog over at The Herald.
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187. JRMacClure
How did they come by Wardog's personal and employment details?
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Did anyone think the news about another hideous WMD on the Clyde was greeted rather too gleefully by STV and BBBC Scotland news?
The media in Scotland is plumbing new depths.
I am truly sorry to hear of the demise of an excellent blogger.
Free speech ,democracy - massive amounts of blood spilt for both and we have a media without the courage to print truth or even get up off its backside and search for it.
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#188 oldnat
Appears that your blog has been reprieved:
The purdah has been lifted.
By the way the blogger you responded to in your comment has a blogsite. Take a peek at this one he wrote last March:
The dream has died. Time to face facts - the SNP must now disband.
Not much of a ‘forward thinker’ more a ‘wishful thinker’ I would say.
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194. Roll_On_2010
"Not much of a ‘forward thinker’ more a ‘wishful thinker’ I would say."
You might want to read again. He was being sarcastic. Every one of those "plunges" was an increase. The funny thing is that everyone is so used to the SNP being bashed that most of the posters didn't realize is was pure sarcasm--but sarcasm is always risky on line.
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Regarding the various submissions about taxation of alcoholic drinks, I seem to recollect that the tax on cider is substantially LESS than anything else. This tax, if my memory serves me correctly was reduced to safeguard the jobs of ENGLISH cider apple growers. I believe Cider has teh LOWEST tax of any alcololic drink even today, unless someone can show that I am wrong.
I cannot ever recollect the tax on Scottish Whisky being reduced to save the jobs of SCOTTISH whisky industry jobs, such as Jonnie Walker in Kilmarnock.
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#195 JRMacClure
You are correct. The only thing that gives the game away were the YouGov percentage figures, which for some reason I skipped over. My incorrect reading was further solidified when I read Subrosa’s comment at the beginning of the blogs.
I note now, that it was not until halfway down the blogs that the sarcasm was noticed.
Thank you JR for the correction.
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#191 JRMacClure
Yep the Lucy Adams is a decent piece of journalism:
'MacAskill had nothing to gain yet he chose compassion'.
The only thing I have against the article is the image in the top right hand corner. Just what is it supposed to imply.
I have found the following articles about Megrahi:
▪ The Herald:
Senator demands “immediate” return of Megrahi to Scotland.
▪ The Hootsmon:
'Send Megrahi back to Scotland'.
▪ The Scottish Sun:
Bring back the bomber.
The above articles are pretty much similar to the BBC article.
I have done a quick troll of the MSM and as yet none of them are running with the story. But my feeling is - give it time.
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# 181 JRMacClure
To borrow a phrase from you Americans, isn't that a part of 'black ops/propaganda'? Isn't this a well used technique by the 'establishment' to set the newshounds onto someone by giving them an unsubstantiated 'bone' to go and chase? You are correct that this is 'big boy' politics and these people will not be playing fair. They will use every trick in the book to rid themselves of all those whom they deem to be 'in the way' of their objectives which is to keep control of, not only Scotland's wealth, but also the Scottish people. This is not the start of an underground political fight by the UK, and probably 'others', as it has been going on for some time now. The time it really upped it pace was when the SNP took power in Scotland at Holyrood. Is it going to get worse, yes it will get far worse the closer we get to a stage where the UK government think that we may win the referendum. I suspect that they think they are safe just now as the SNP are outnumbered in Holyrood, but this may change after the next Scottish election. Keep going even though there are going to be casualties (only political I hope) for the struggle will be worth it in the end.
Don't expect any help from the big boys from Europe, as they will be looking over their shoulders at their own potential regional difficulties, and don't expect any help from the big international organisations because of the pressure from the UK and 'other' large countries. However, if/when Scotland manages to get its independence then expect all those 'others' to come running to our door telling us that we are the best thing since sliced bread and that 'they' were behind us all the time.
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#199 gedguy2
Isn't this a well used technique by the 'establishment' to set the newshounds onto someone by giving them an unsubstantiated 'bone' to go and chase?
I'll make a reference to the fuel protests in 2000 and to what the media did to the likes of Andrew Spence at the behest of filth like Damien Mcbride. Or to David Kelly and the unacceptable way in which he and his lifes work was lambasted by Alistair Campbells "walter mitty" spin machine, shortly before he either killed himself or someone at Mi5 helped him too.
For those Nats without a long memory - you might want to look into the case of Willie McRae - an activist for the SNP who died in very mysetrious and slighly suspicious circumstances.
Typing it in google will be sufficient.
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199. At 09:10am on 21 Nov 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
"control of the Scottish people"
"there are going to be casualties (only political I hope)"
Are we somehow restricted in our movements? Is there some sort of law that makes us wears a St Andrews cross to identify us?
Be serious.
One blogger says he is getting strange phone calls and his employers are being visited. Yet all he does is stop blogging. Tell you what, if yo and JR think he really is under threat, contact the SNP leadership, Private Eye, News International and the Police.
I can accept there are moves to hammer the SNP in the media. But an entire government apparatus going after a blogger most people have not heard of is pushing it a bit.
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#199 Gedguy2
"However, if/when Scotland manages to get its independence then expect all those 'others' to come running to our door telling us that we are the best thing since sliced bread and that 'they' were behind us all the time."
Yes and I'd be inclined to tell them where to go!
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what an interesting wee world the herald lives in these days .
on the one hand we have the headlines re Megrahi with an old photo and on their web site they are asking for help to fill in a questionare and support the work of Macmillan!
note to all the ghouls. cancer works differently on every body. everybody reacts differently to any treatment they get or don't get.when experts give their opinion on life expectancy it is exactly what it says on the tin it is their opinion!
when cancer visits your family which it inevitably will in some shape or form ,you can then look back and review whether this was indeed the finest hour of your life or did it just show you for what you are!
don't know about the rest of you but personally i couldn't care less about the thoughts of a 2 bit American politician that no one (bar Glenn) has heard of.
maybe we should add another charge to Mr megrahi's charge sheet.
that of not dying when he was supposed to?
on second thoughts no doubt the opposition would like to charge Kenny McCaskill with releasing someone who didn't die on time instead.
Sid
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# 201 Neil_Small147
Come off it, do you really believe that the UK government is not capable of doing those things when it sees its interests are being tested? If you do then I would refer you to the two world wars where the governments of the day didn't give a monkey's about the number of its citizens who died , were maimed for life or died/injured of atrocious deseases in the trenches. Don't come up with the usual tripe of they were defending democracy; they weren't. They died and were injured to protect the interests of the people at the top. I'm not even going to talk about the amount of wars that the UK government have been involved in after the world wars and hundreds of thousands of civilians that have died through UK imperialist projections. (By the way I am not a communist and never have been. I just don't shut my eyes to what is going on in the world). To be honest with you if I was the UK government I too would be interested in maintaining my stance on the world stage. Don't think for one moment that the UK government, late of the empire, would not stoop to those tactics and worse.
As to your suggestion that we refer this to the press, is this the same press that is being so glencampbelly towards the SNP? By the way, it doesn't need a 'whole government apparatus' to go after a blogger. It just needs one man in power to drop a 'hint' of a possible scandal to allow those journalistic bloodhounds off the leash to have them baying at his life. Just look at the journalists who follow the pop stars and the hounding that they do to effect a story for their paper or magazine.
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# 200 GAberdeen
Thanks for that about Willie McRae. I didn't know about that one. I wonder how # 201 Neil_Small147 is going to be able to answer that case?
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# 202 Robabody
Yes and I'd be inclined to tell them where to go!
That's exactly what my heart would say but my head tells me that we will have to deal with those 'others', on a political and financial scale.
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13. At 3:15pm on 19 Nov 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
" 8. run That's ok. He has to put up with the cyberbrits and we cybernats are at least generally a pretty civil lot."
Wow this board has certainly changed since I last used it - I agree that the current postings are pretty civil and it's good to see. Even the personal attacks against the politicians are relatively mild, but where have all Muriel Gray's 'blackshirts' gone? Can't remember her exact quote but they were the blogger's equivalent). Anyone who objected to some of their more inane comments was attacked tooth and nail by these SNP diehards.
201. At 09:51am on 21 Nov 2009, Neil_Small147 wrote:
"One blogger says he is getting strange phone calls and his employers are being visited.
I can accept there are moves to hammer the SNP in the media. But an entire government apparatus going after a blogger most people have not heard of is pushing it a bit."
Neil,
I don't know the circumstances but 'if his views were extremist in the current climate' you can be almost certain he would be under scrutiny. However, they wouldn't be doing this on behalf of the Government - remember Harold Wilson's phone was tapped.
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What Labour has achieved in Glasgow.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/douglasfraser/2009/11/clydebuilt_recovery.html
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201. Neil_Small147
"But an entire government apparatus going after a blogger most people have not heard of is pushing it a bit."
It doesn't require 'an entire government apparatus' to apply this kind of soft pressure that is cheap to apply but expensive for a private individual (blogging as a hobby) to counter. All that is required is information (personal/work details) and some ostensibly plausible legal threats (and possibly some limited resource to cary them forward a little for realism), and the shameless will to apply that pressure by impromptu calls/letters to home and employer.
I appreciate what you're saying about not getting carried away with notions that the entire UK state is actively engaged against nationalism - without evidence. But there are infinite shades of influence that the state (and/or supporters) can apply directly or indirectly to acheive its aims, and to simply discount that it may be going on at all is no better.
Blogging takes time and effort for private individuals, it doesn't necessarily take much to tip a blogger off their hobby. It certainly doesn't require huge govt effort and commitment - they wouldn't do it if it did, that's partly the point.
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204. gedguy2
"As to your suggestion that we refer this to the press, is this the same press that is being so glencampbelly towards the SNP? "
The tile of Brian's blog here is - Just say no.
Perhaps the bloggers and other concerned parties (blog posters etc...) should get organised a bit more and when this sort of situation happens - start making enough noise that it can't be done without propogating out into other (more mainstream) media channels.
I don't think that the UK (let alone) Scots bloggers have ever acheived the level of ad-hoc coordination that the US ones have managed to acheive over the past few years.
Anyone who believes that we face an info war must not concede the web, it is the only place where it is possible to play on a remotley level field. Strong voices should not be allowed to be silenced without answer -
Nemo me impune lacessit
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# 210 mrbfaethedee
I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments regarding keeping the struggle going.
Just a short note to commend this blog. As you are aware of there are mainstream papers in Scotland that will deliberately restrict the point of view of the cybernats when it suits them. This blog, even though it has many faults, at least, allows us to put over our point of view. I am grateful for that. I may, at times, disagree with Brian and some (OK quite a lot) of his postings but he does have the decency to allow us a say without there being a political 'firewall' put up against us. I may even disagree with a lot of the news that the BBC puts out, especially BBC Scotland, but this is the only national site that we may put over our Nationalistic rantings. We should bear this in mind when we attack Brian and his glencampbelled pieces. It should not be personal as I believe that Brian is probably a very nice man. Well, he has to be, he's an Arab ;-)
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One of the things about wardog's situation that might be worth knowing is whether it was the blogging or the FOI requests he was making that rocked the boat.
For anyone who is dubious about the lengths the state will go to for things we can't imagine they would have a legitimate reason to bother with, the guardian has run several online pieces lately on how the police now have an unofficial category of 'domestic extremists', and have under surveillance and recording people who dare to peacefully protest on issues they are concerned about.
Police in £9m scheme to log 'domestic extremists'
How police rebranded lawful protest as 'domestic extremism'
Mark Thomas - Doth I protest too much?
Protesting against police tactics
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204. At 10:34am on 21 Nov 2009, gedguy2:
One individual blogger is not going to take down a government. I'd say that Online Ed's blog could be far more damaging, since it is far more professional that what is basically a platform to rant from.
But I don't think he's being followed or getting strange calls in the middle of the night.
Governments do some strange things, but they will not start targetting minor level bloggers.
We are back to conspiracy theories again. If you think there is a genuine issue, then go and contact Christine Grahame. If there is one MSP in Scotland who will go public it is her.
209. At 11:10am on 21 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote:
I accept you cannot dismiss everything, but there is a helluva lot of conspiracy theories on this blog at times. The worst has to be the notion that somehow Scotland is suppressed. How? Politically yes, since Westminster controls the purse strings, but individuals carry on as before.
But there are some who support the SNP who should also be highlighted as sinister - those who describe as "traitors" people who do not support independence. And there have been a few on this blog over the past year.
The danger with crying wolf all the time is that people switch off, and when there is a genuine threat, it is ignored.
The problem with bloggers is that most of them are amateurs, and as yo have stated in #210 there is little, if any coordination. The best people to use are those with PR experience, and there must be plenty out there.
The other danger with uncoordinated blogs is that the opposition will use these to their own benefit. For example, highlighting to the press outrageous policies or ideas - raised by a blogger - but imply that it is in fact SNP official policy.
Blogs and message boards are monitored by interested parties, including those outwith politics. Some organisations will have people joining blogs and boards under the pretence of a supporter of xyz in order to gain further information.
But to take this a step further and make direct threats to an individual is not only extremely difficult in the first place, but highly dangerous to an organisation. If a political party was found to be doing the old "Vote Liberal or we'll shoot your dog" type methods, it would cripple them.
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201. Neil_Small147
"Are we somehow restricted in our movements?"
Given that there is a Labour Government that is enthusiastic about a £20 billion ID card scheme,I wouldn't say there is no perceptible threat to our freedom of movement.
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# 213 Neil_Small147
On the one hand you accuse those who bring up this type of subject as 'conspiracy theorists' yet on the other hand you admit that "I accept you cannot dismiss everything". I fully accept that there may be areas where the term 'conspiracy nuts' may have some justification (some of David Icke's writing would most certainly fit that description) and I would back you on that. Still, I would be interested in what 'bits' you don't dismiss.
I would also agree with you that the Government does not neccesarily know what all of its departments are doing. After all, the government does not run this country, the 'establishment' does. By the 'establishment' I mean, mostly, the top Civil servants, the heirarchy of the Masons and the Old Boys network (which, of course, means both of them). Governments are only there to give the impression that democracy exists. Politicians are only there to take the blame when the Civil service gets things wrong. How does this affect the 'Joe Bloggs' on the street? I doubt that it affects them directly at all. However, it does in lots of other ways that are not immediately transparent unless you do a lot of digging and that is when one may come into direct conflict with those that control our lives.
It is a big bad world out there and we are not supposed to get in the way of those who see themselves as leaders and we certainly shouldn't get in the way when it comes to big business making a profit. Bring down a government, yes, that can always be replaced by another government, but don't dare get in the way of the profit makers and their global ambitions!
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213. Neil_Small147
"
One individual blogger is not going to take down a government."
It was one Heather Brooke who alone brought about the expense scandal.
re WARDOG
Freedom and Whisky and Bill's Comment Page.
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@213 Neil Small wrote "If a political party was found to be doing the old "Vote Liberal or we'll shoot your dog" type methods, it would cripple them."
I took my dog to the Glasgow North East hustings to hear Eileen Baxendale and he produced a small revolver and shot himself.
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213. Neil_Small147
"
But to take this a step further and make direct threats to an individual is not only extremely difficult in the first place, but highly dangerous to an organisation. If a political party was found to be doing the old "Vote Liberal or we'll shoot your dog" type methods, it would cripple them."
Absolutely, but the very obviousness of this to all here would indicate that it would be covered in 'dirty tricks 101', and the simple expedient of making sure there is no official connection just the 'happy chance' that free agents who happen to be among your supporters just happen to do exactly what you need.
The establishment is composed of so much more than political parties.
I am suspicious at present, I have no evidence. I have the stated actions of blogger who by his own admission had thought about stopping for other reasons, and his claims of actions taken against him by several different parties. No more than that. I remain suspicious.
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211. gedguy2
I agree wholeheartedly with you about this blog, despite the fact brian is an arab ;)
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Hilarious video on Guido's blog bebunking the recent Labour Party PP broadcast, demonstrating that it is full of lies. What else would you expect?
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#214 Misty D - here's an incident from 27Sept 09. "Passengers travelling on flights from England to Scotland are being forced to show passports to police. The situation came to light when Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling was shocked to be asked for identification under anti-terror laws by airport officers.And last night he demanded an explanation from Scotland’s top police chief and said he was worried that people travelling on domestic flights now face checks akin to
border controls".
From memory - it's out there somewhere and perhas an internet whiz can pick up the threads - at the moment there has been a pilot running to determine people's movements between airports in the UK (as well as in and out of the UK). The pilot was to test the computer system and has done X amount of operations successfully ( and from the millions of travel movements has caught circa 1000 "criminals" - stunningly succesful don't you know) The intention is (or was) to roll it out to sea ports, then Railway stations, then using number plate and face recognition camera's, deployed at the internal borders of the UK to catch you and me as we sojurn into other parts of the UK.
That's the problem with cheap processing power a) it lets edjits like me on here and b) Lets edgits in government think they can control the world!
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
oh and despite my rant that has probably been moderated 213# online ed is the boy, speaks more sense and reason than most. His reporting is fresh and informative and boy can he make you think. keep up the good work
***** five stars
His informative email will blow you away
*****
if i could give him 6 i'd give him 7
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star wars is on!! whoohooo go STV
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#221.Robabody
Very interesting about the passports for domestic flights.Hadn't heard about that.
It's funny though how liberal these Tory politicians like Cameron,Chris Grayling and David Davis sound when they're in opposition.
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What possible reason have the political editors of the sunday herald and the news of the world got to contact a private individual blogging because they don't like him using the 'c' word, question his claims over someone's council tax, and foi requests on postal voting.
What reason?
Euan McColm and Tom Gordon did some digging and made personal contact with someone for no professional reason.
Why?
The only alternative (other than wardog made the whole thing up) is that some third party/s suitably convinced wardog that they were the editors, i'd have thought those editiors would have been desperately keen to find out who is impersonating them, and intimidating people in their name.
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221. Robabody
daily mail has it, amongst others.
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199. gedguy2
"Don't expect any help from the big boys from Europe, as they will be looking over their shoulders at their own potential regional difficulties, and don't expect any help from the big international organisations because of the pressure from the UK and 'other' large countries. However, if/when Scotland manages to get its independence then expect all those 'others' to come running to our door telling us that we are the best thing since sliced bread and that 'they' were behind us all the time. "
Yep. I agree with your entire assessment. That's why I shouldn't have been surprised.
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213. Neil_Small147
"One individual blogger is not going to take down a government. I'd say that Online Ed's blog could be far more damaging, since it is far more professional that what is basically a platform to rant from."
You SERIOUSLY think that the UK has not used blackops against Scottish independence. No one person won't but a lot of people will. Take a look at the information that was garnered about a year back about the blackops activities in the PAST against the SNP.
You REALLY think it has stopped?
Well, I don't.
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218. mrbfaethedee
"The establishment is composed of so much more than political parties.
I am suspicious at present, I have no evidence. I have the stated actions of blogger who by his own admission had thought about stopping for other reasons, and his claims of actions taken against him by several different parties. No more than that. I remain suspicious.
"
The fact is that Wardog made himself vulnerable in a couple of ways. He allowed it to be possible to threaten him by a connection of his blogging to where he works and by his rather extreme style. My memory is that it wasn't The Herald that was connected, by the way. Sure it could have been someone faking a news media connection. Whether they were or not, the effect was that they silenced an opponent.
There has been a PROVEN history of this in the past. I know that you are aware of them but maybe some people aren't. This has happened happened in the past and all those SNP "conspiracy theorists" and paranoids were proven RIGHT.
So people can skip the "you're just conspiracy theorists". It's not a theory when there is a history of it which THERE IS. Silencing Scots who have "radical views" has a very, very long history.
Here's freedom to him that wad read,
Here's freedom to him that wad write!
There's nane ever fear'd that the truth should be heard,
But they wham the truth wad indite.
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201. Neil_Small147
"I can accept there are moves to hammer the SNP in the media. But an entire government apparatus going after a blogger most people have not heard of is pushing it a bit."
Who says they're after only one blogger. You really think this kind of thing doesn't happen? Think again!
History of action against the SNP
Wardog made himself vulnerable to attack. Was it an "official" attack or one from an overenthusiastic amateur? Who knows? It's all of a piece. Don't kid yourself.
It WILL get nasty before it's all over.
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232. At 6:20pm on 21 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
That was the 1950s, and I've already said earlier I could believe such things were commonplace then - and it was even worse in the USA with all these commies you had under the beds!
But apart from Wardog saying he has had these threats, has anyone else come up with independent and substantiated proof?
Why does someone who supports him raise this issue?
If someone came to your employer with spurious allegations and sacked you, you'd hammer them at a trubunal for starters. And before that happened, the people making such allegations to an employer would have to show some form of credentials. It is extremely difficult to plan and carry out such actions, because of the number of people and organisations involved.
215. At 12:36pm on 21 Nov 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
What I meant was that while there are likely to be certain activities at government level, they are not going to concentrate resources and risk disclosure over one ranting blogger.
Otherwise just about everyone here would have "disappeared" months ago!
There are two theories I can accept at present: one is that certain parts of the media have an anti-SNP agenda, and that Dr David Kelly's death is suspicious. He was involved at the highest level. Wardog doesn't exactly come close.
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I don't disagree about MI5 spying on the Scottish National Party, I would suspect certain members of all parties and groups should be watched from time to time, even if that group consider themselves peaceful.
I do disagree with MI5 undermining cases and ruining the purpose of democracy. MI5 should be the invisable service within the United Kingdom, used to protect democracy and prevent home grown terror.
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234. Thomas_Porter
"That was the 1950s, and I've already said earlier I could believe such things were commonplace then - and it was even worse in the USA with all these commies you had under the beds!"
In the 50s? You REALLY think it stopped in the 50s? Or was it the 70s when it stopped after they killed the kids at Kent State and acted against anti-war activists all over the world? Or the 90s?
So you think MI5 and the CIA love you now and would never do a thing to hurt you?
Well, dream on my friend.
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234. Thomas_Porter
"I don't disagree about MI5 spying on the Scottish National Party, I would suspect certain members of all parties and groups should be watched from time to time, even if that group consider themselves peaceful."
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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233. Neil_Small147
"What I meant was that while there are likely to be certain activities at government level, they are not going to concentrate resources and risk disclosure over one ranting blogger. "
Do you think in the 50s that they were worried about each and every meeting and rally they spied on? WHAT is your logic here? No one said they were going to kill him. But every opponent they can silence, every lying anti-SNP book they can get out (do a little checking), every bit they can do adds up to the whole.
Honestly, anyone who thinks it has stopped is kidding themselves. I have proof that it happened. Where is YOUR proof that they don't do it any more?
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234. Thomas_Porter
"I don't disagree about MI5 spying on the Scottish National Party, I would suspect certain members of all parties and groups should be watched from time to time, even if that group consider themselves peaceful."
My response to this will be moderated. I forgot that you can't use Latin here.
Who will guard the guards?
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#205 gedguy2
Your welcome.
McRae's death stands out amidst all others in the world of politics, simply because the powers that be forced it under the carpet and pinned it there until it died. A few years ago a former CID officer came forward with evidence that he'd been paid by a spook to shadow McRae a few weeks before he died.
Elish Angiolini has been asked numerous times to open an investigation into McRaes death but all requests have been refused on the grounds that the investigation itself was carried out thoroughly.
Anyone with a modicum of sense would argue that a dead man flinging a pistol 60ft away after shooting themselves is stretching credibility. We talk about Lockerbie being a whitewash - we really should look closer to home sometimes.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/special-reports/crimes-that-rocked-scotland/2007/10/19/the-mcrae-mystery-86908-19978476/
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233. Neil_Small147
"If someone came to your employer with spurious allegations and sacked you, you'd hammer them at a trubunal for starters."
He never said the allegations were spurious. Apparently what he did was blog from university property--no doubt in serious contravention of work rules and making himself vulnerable to pressure. It really isn't that hard to track people down in spite of our feelings of anonymity. You think they don't know where I post from? Fortunately, I have nothing to hide.
If you have ANYTHING to hide, I suggest not posting--anywhere.
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The Scots 9 Wallabie's 8 pity the overpaid footballers don't show the same passion for their country.
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#238 JRMaclure
You also can't use Japanese, German or Gaelic - which give's enforced, colonial english a monopoly here really.
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Sure it has stopped: Phone taps
Did they expect to get anything on Ms. Graham's phone? Probably not, but it's all of a piece. One little bit at a time. And you might want to note Ms. Jamieson's response.
Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation.
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BTW well done to Ann Ritchie, small step in the right direction. Keep spreading the word. GNE was a disappointment but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
SNP the only party interested in the interests of Scotland.
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Oddly enough my bit of Latin got through although I've had Latin moderated in the past. A new mod maybe who didn't know it's a language we peons aren't supposed to know. ;-)
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233. Neil_Small147
SIS
"As Britain's secret service, SIS provides the British Government with a global covert capability to promote and defend the national security and economic well-being of the United Kingdom.
SIS operates world-wide to collect secret foreign intelligence in support of the British Government's policies and objectives."
my highlights.
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242. GAberdeen
"You also can't use Japanese, German or Gaelic"
*cough* Do you know how hard Gaelic is to learn (for some of us anyway)? I can't really complain about that one too much. My Japanese is actually better than my Gaelic.
And you don't want to hear me try to speak it. Although my French professors used to complain a lot, too. Mixing even a slight Southern accent--and mine is pretty slight--with certain other languages is a recipe for disaster.
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Oh, dear. You can always tell when I'm upset--I quote Burns.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Don't laugh, well not too loud. Iain Gray welcomes Willie Bain to Holyrood
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Like I said - they don't like japanese. :p
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JRMacClure:
Hmm.. do you beleive that gaurding the gaurds is more important then combating possible extremist ideas?
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250. cynicalHighlander
"Don't laugh, well not too loud."
Tacky. When the SNP wins, they don't drag the winner to Holyrood to show off like little school kids on "show and tell" day.
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250. cynicalHighlander
Just how much make-up was Bain wearing to create that smooth skinned look? :-)
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*242 GAberdeen
My parents were beaten at school if they were heard speaking Gaelic.
My first language was Gaelic.
Enforcement didn't work.
*247 JR MacClure
As a "native" Gaelic speaker I would think Gaelic with a slight Southern accent would sound quite attractive and much more soothing and gentle,as it should be, than the Canadian accents I sometimes hear!
May I suggest you make a start by signing yourself JR Nic Gille Leabhar.
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252. Thomas_Porter
"Hmm.. do you beleive that gaurding the gaurds is more important then combating possible extremist ideas?"
Yes, as a matter of fact I do. I absolutely do NOT believe in spying on political parties since the inevitable result is suppression of dissent.
I know that people over there worry about the IRA, et al, but I've seen too much of it go wrong. Watergate, anyone? I have no idea how many times, before and since, things like that have been done and they WEREN'T caught, but I absolutely believe that it happens. There is evidence of it.
I agree with Mr. Franklin on this one: He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
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254. oldnat
"Just how much make-up was Bain wearing to create that smooth skinned look? :-)"
Is it called "As smooth as a babies bottom".
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255. 178gml
"My parents were beaten at school if they were heard speaking Gaelic.
My first language was Gaelic.
Enforcement didn't work.
"
I had Hispanic friends who were beaten for speaking Spanish at school. No, it doesn't work.
JR Nic Gille Leabhar it is and we'll see if I get moderated. ;-)
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An interesting article from a English Unionist standpoint.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/20/devolution-constitutional-jigsaw
A good description of the Labour and Tory myths of Britain.
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JRMacClure:
#256.
There is a difference about being ordered to influence a group in a negative manner and of course to simply gather intelligence on individuals.
If it's suppose to save peoples lives, whats the problem or would you be willing to explain to the families of victims that you prevented earlier actions that might have prevented extremist acts?
There are also extremist Islamic groups in the UK, even Islamic seperatists. Is it not important to keep an eye on them?
In the USA groups may abuse their power but thats your problem. However if we in the UK can have a service that does infiltrate groups to simply gather intelligence without actually influencing that group, I would be fairly happy.
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One of the most extreme ideas in the world--the one that certain organizations would LOVE to suppress is this one:
Salus populi suprema lex esto
Be careful. Your idea of extreme might not be someone else's.
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According to the Torygraph the deal Brown did to ensure Baroness Ashton got the EU foreign whatever job was that Michel Barnier, a centre-right French politician will get the job as internal market commissioner overseeing financial regulation.
Mr Barnier, a former commissioner, is well known as defender of French protectionism and is hostile to the “Anglo-Saxon” free market model of capitalism. So so far so good....
The prospect has apparently alarmed the City of London, where many banks fear the imposition of new EU regulations on the financial services sector.
But the best comment of all came from William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, who said Mr Barnier was a “serious concern” and a threat to “the economic issues that affect Britain the most”. He previously called for Britain to pursue one of three major economic post and accused the government of pursuing the “wrong priority”.
“Our French partners have a different view on market issues that touch on Britain’s vital economic interests,” he said. “Now that Britain will no longer have an EU Commissioner with a major economic brief it will be vital that the British Government, whichever party is in power, engages closely with the Commission to ensure that it keeps to a pro-growth agenda.”
So what Hague is saying here is that the interests of the City of London are paramount and this tends to blow a big hole through the Tory claims to want to rebalance the economy and increase manufacturing.
To my mind this makes the idea of the SNP holding the balance of power at Westminster even more important.
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260. Thomas_Porter
"n the USA groups may abuse their power but thats your problem. "
I'm glad you have so much confidence in your friends at Westminster that you are absolutely sure they would never aabuse their power.
I'm glad you think that wiretapping MSP phones and spying on letitimate political parties is just fine and dandy.
But if you think this is going to get rid of "radical ideas" I think you will eventually be disabused of the notion. No government has yet to kill off an idea. NOR should they be able to--not even a bad one.
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260. Thomas_Porter
"If it's suppose to save peoples lives, whats the problem or would you be willing to explain to the families of victims that you prevented earlier actions that might have prevented extremist acts?"
Putting a camera in every house in the country (you're getting pretty darn close over there) and telling kids to spy on their parents and report any forbidden idea to the government would no doubt save lives.
How much freedom, exactly, are you willing to give up?
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260. Thomas_Porter
"However if we in the UK can have a service that does infiltrate groups to simply gather intelligence without actually influencing that group, I would be fairly happy."
If you actually believe that's what they do--I will leave you to that delusion. I won't argue the point with you, Thomas. Give up as much freedom as you want for that ephemeral security.
There are more than a few who, I am happy to say, do not agree.
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262. Wee-Scamp
"According to the Torygraph the deal Brown did to ensure Baroness Ashton got the EU foreign whatever job was that Michel Barnier, a centre-right French politician will get the job as internal market commissioner overseeing financial regulation. "
I must admit that I don't understand the significance of this, wee-scamp. Could you explain?
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JRMacClure:
#263.
I don't because I am not an agent and are not aware of the type of methods used my MI5 or other agencies. However I would be pleased if we did have an honest system, if the police can why shouldn't other groups?
It's not suppose to get rid of radical ideas. It's suppose to simply gather intelligence on potentially dangerous moves, I suppose you don't believe protesters should be infiltrated by the police or other agencies, although some do commit criminal acts?
I believe preventive measures is the best solution against extreme ideas.
Terrorists in the UK have been victims of infiltration and I suppose you believe that we should have waited untill these terrorsts commited their dangerous acts before we actually stopped them?
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JRMacClure:
#264.
"How much freedom, exactly, are you willing to give up?"
I suggest you look at my past comments...
"If you actually believe that's what they do--I will leave you to that delusion."
I didn't say thats what is done. If it was, I would be fairly happy.
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267. Thomas_Porter
"Terrorists in the UK have been victims of infiltration and I suppose you believe that we should have waited untill these terrorsts commited their dangerous acts before we actually stopped them?"
I'm not going to continue to argue this point so this will be my last comment on the subject.
WHAT TERRORIST ACTS DID THE SNP CARRY OUT? NAME ONE.
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JRMacClure:
#269.
Your all over the place. You've not even bothered to answer the simple questions I asked, but I shall be polite and answer yours.
First of all I believe infiltration is best used in order to gather intelligence on individuals. I am not suggesting the group in question has an active militant and criminal wing apart of their organisation, but I do believe (especially in politics) that people will do whatever it takes to further their goals.
I know I would be tempted to ditch democracy and further my own goals in life but I doubt I am alone either on that idea.
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Online Ed Here
Willie election attracts Fudd
Click Here
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#252 Thomas_Porter
do you beleive that gaurding the gaurds is more important then combating possible extremist ideas?
I do indeed Thomas, I think it's very important to combat extremist ideas.
Non more so than the idea that Labour might win the next general election
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#271 Online Ed
A good analysis of the GNE result. Socialist Labour is the Arthur Scargill party. I wonder if they actually campaigned in the 2005 GE in GNE. In any event, there is no doubt in my mind that those 4000 voters thought they were voting for the Labour party.
Has that aspect of the GNE result been picked up anywhere in the mainstream media? I think I know the answer to that.
Do you know if the Electoral register for GNE is available?
Freedom
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270. Thomas_Porter
"Your all over the place. You've not even bothered to answer the simple questions I asked"
Other than your attack on me as an American, exactly what was your "simple question"? Am I willing to give up my freedom to prevent some terrorist attack.
No.
There. Is that a simple enough answer for you?
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270. Thomas_Porter
"First of all I believe infiltration is best used in order to gather intelligence on individuals. I am not suggesting the group in question has an active militant and criminal wing apart of their organisation, but I do believe (especially in politics) that people will do whatever it takes to further their goals."
So you think they should make a file on anyone who is--what?
Registered to vote?
A member of any political party?
Or only a political party that you don't like--and which parties would that be?
This is a discussion that is useless. I happen to believe in civil freedom including the freedom from government spying UNLESS you have broken a law and there is evidence to that affect. We disagree. You evidently they should spy on everyone fishing for any evidence that you don't like the government and might possibly do some act against it.
A pretty basic disagreement that we're not going to settle here.
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269. JRMacClure
"WHAT TERRORIST ACTS DID THE SNP CARRY OUT? NAME ONE."
They (and me and others) want to break up the the immoral state of Great Britain into its constituant parts and that in their eye is a terrorist act against the 'mother' of all parliaments.
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273. hadrianswall
"Has that aspect of the GNE result been picked up anywhere in the mainstream media? I think I know the answer to that."
If there is another explanation for Socialist Labour getting 4,000 votes in 2005 and 47 in 2009--I sure haven't seen it brought forward.
But it is an issue that the MSM has avoided like the plague!
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276. cynicalHighlander
"They (and me and others) want to break up the the immoral state of Great Britain into its constituant parts and that in their eye is a terrorist act against the 'mother' of all parliaments. "
I'll give you that one, CH. Absolutely correct. I wasn't aware that was in breach of the law, but I'm sure that in their eyes if it isn't, that it should be.
It is certainly against the remit of MI5 which is to protect the POLICIES of the British government. One of those policies happens to be to protect the Union and hence they should act against the SNP.
Good point. And expect further action from such organizations.
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252. Thomas_Porter
"Hmm.. do you beleive that gaurding the gaurds is more important then combating possible extremist ideas?"
Of course, and the reason should be obvious. If no one guards the guards then they can be the extremists you fear.
You must ensure that your systems are protected first and foremost or you are always vulnerable, that's why we are supposed to balance the desires of the state with oversight and constraint.
What's an extremist? If you look back in this thread to my #212 you'll find some links to articles detailing how the police now take it on themselves to monitor 'domestic extremists' - sounds like serious stuff eh? Do you think that when people support draconian proposals because it's to combat extremists, thant they are thinking of people protesting at arms fairs? OR terrorists? because if they're both defined as 'extremists' they both look the same.
You also mention in another post that you "would be tempted to ditch democracy and further my own goals in life but I doubt I am alone either on that idea."
No you aren't alone, and if some of the others who would ditch democracy happen to be in positions of power near the heart of key systems with the power to define others as 'extremists', what then?
Checks and balances. Oversight and accountability.
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#201
Of course the SNP is infiltrated and has always has been infiltrated. It would be a very incompetent London government that did not make sure this is then case. I could give you names. MI5 have thousands of plants creating continuous low level disruption in the trade union movement, socialist organisations and nationalist political movements and they have tame operatives all through the media. Very often they are not paid a lot but the powers that be have something on them.
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271. U14094468
"Online Ed Here
Willie election attracts Fudd
Click Here"
Top quality piece!
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274. JRMacClure
"270. Thomas_Porter
"Your all over the place. You've not even bothered to answer the simple questions I asked"
Other than your attack on me as an American, exactly what was your "simple question"? Am I willing to give up my freedom to prevent some terrorist attack.
No."
Agreed.
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231. JRMacClure
"My memory is that it wasn't The Herald that was connected, by the way."
Just for info - "had a call from Tom Gordon from the Sunday Herald"
Google still has wardog's pages cached, if you google "is that you tom gordon" the first link is to the article, just click on the 'cached' link.
So, news of the world and sunday herald as far as i can tell.
By the way, I agree with you about wardog making himself vulnerable, i dont imagine he ever imagined people would come along and make him worry about his livelihood. Low. :(
The dead tree press is dying for more reasons than the economics of digital competion, and its demise has an honour guard second rate, self-important, wee men.
on that note - [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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I'm going to shut up about wardog now, but one last link - Are the Labour Party getting the scottish press to target SNP Bloggers?, comments are well worth a read too.
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284. mrbfaethedee
You might want to fix your link though. :-)
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Online Ed Here
Full details of Glasgow NE by-election votes here.
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237. At 7:03pm on 21 Nov 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
Honestly, anyone who thinks it has stopped is kidding themselves. I have proof that it happened. Where is YOUR proof that they don't do it any more?
Where is your proof that they do?
You have totally blown your own argument through paranoia.
Does anyone here honestly believe that MI5 is about to start snatching independence activists and government critics off the street.
By all means lets have a debate, but get back to reality please.
-----------------
Small snippet for all those who think Chavez in Venezuala is a good model for Scotland to follow:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8372250.stm
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280. At 10:01pm on 21 Nov 2009, sneckedagain:
Have you checked under your bed?
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276. At 9:43pm on 21 Nov 2009, cynicalHighlander:
Check for hidden cameras.......
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273. At 9:23pm on 21 Nov 2009, hadrianswall wrote:
Do you know if the Electoral register for GNE is available?
20 feet under the Clyde probably.....
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254. At 7:59pm on 21 Nov 2009, oldnat wrote:
Just how much make-up was Bain wearing to create that smooth skinned look? :-)
Showroom dummies have the same complexion.......
-------------------
On a more serious note, the Scottish Fishing industry has been shafted by Europe again. And the UK to its credit did try to help.
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284. mrbfaethedee
Your link isn't working.
Are the Labour Party getting the scottish press to target SNP Bloggers?
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"A hydroelectric wave-energy machine called the Oyster, which could revolutionise energy production in Scotland, was yesterday switched on to the National Grid by Alex Salmond, the First Minister."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6926321.ece
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I'm not old enough for this to be an issue - yet :-)
But this would be a really attractive proposition for the future.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6926320.ece
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Odd that I made a post with several relevent links and it won't seem to post. Yes, that does make my paranoia (Being paranoid does NOT mean they aren't out to get you, you know) go into overdrive.
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288:
That blog is playing right into the hands of the unionist press.
How on earth is the independence movement - not only SNP supporters - going to achieve it's goal when blogs like this undermine the serious message?
And I'm sure that Glasgow University is going to be over the moon if this starts hitting the press for real.
The Labour Party may be using the media to put the SNP in a bad light, and will use examples such as this blog.
283. At 10:41pm on 21 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee:
That link at the bottom, of all people to describe using the aforementioned word, the blogger would select a journalist.
Wonder what Alex will say if this appears in the paper implying there are links to the SNP. Either that or the blogger is going to get a nice letter from some expensive lawyers.......
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287. Neil_Small147
"Check for hidden cameras......."
Complacency is no disguise to pursue honesty.
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292. Neil_Small147
Ooooh. A nationalist used a bad word. What a scandal!
It will destroy nationalism forever.
It couldn't have been those FOI requests.
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285. JRMacClure
"284. mrbfaethedee
You might want to fix your link though. :-)"
Thanks :|
Should have been...
I'm going to shut up about wardog now, but one last link - Are the Labour Party getting the scottish press to target SNP Bloggers?, comments are well worth a read too.
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Ok, I'll do this one piece at a time. My post as a whole will not post.
287. Neil_Small147
"You have totally blown your own argument through paranoia.
Does anyone here honestly believe that MI5 is about to start snatching independence activists and government critics off the street.
"
And you have just blown YOUR argument with a blatant try at a strawman argument. Set up something stupid and say that I said it, when obviously I did not.
I mentioned snatching someone off the street--where? *raises eyebrows*
However I did mention the public fact that MSPs have had their phones tapped. It is a fact that in the past (and probably still) MI5 has spied on the SNP.
MI5 spying
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Watching you
MSP phone taps
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More about phone taps
If you want to discuss it, discuss what I said, not some fiction about what I said. THERE is plenty of proof that it happened in the past, even the recent past. Where is your proof that it has stopped?
(No idea why the links wouldn't post in a single comment, but would separately)
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292. Neil_Small147
"That blog is playing right into the hands of the unionist press."
Human rights are not an issue as long as one follows the governments view of how we should think and conduct ourselves! Sorry not for me I am not a sheep ready for slaughter.
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292. Neil_Small147
"And I'm sure that Glasgow University is going to be over the moon if this starts hitting the press for real."
Interesting. Where is there a mention of Glasgow University in that blog?
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292. Neil_Small147
"That blog is playing right into the hands of the unionist press.
How on earth is the independence movement - not only SNP supporters - going to achieve it's goal when blogs like this undermine the serious message?
And I'm sure that Glasgow University is going to be over the moon if this starts hitting the press for real.
The Labour Party may be using the media to put the SNP in a bad light, and will use examples such as this blog.
"
I'm clearly not reading it with the eyes of a media analyst then, eh?
It looked to me like they basically posted the guts of the posts on wardog's blogs that caused all the stink. Pretty handy for anyone (not familiar with google's caches) who wants to find out waht happened, and essential if - like the blog you're going to pass comment on it.
THe article then goes on to settel on what the author feels are the actual key pieces of content and then simply asks two questions -
So why are the press asking him to do their jobs as investigative reporters?
Or could it be an attempt to smear SNP supporters ahead of the General Election to silence them?
What is it you find frivolous in the recap, and/or questions?
"283. At 10:41pm on 21 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee:
That link at the bottom, of all people to describe using the aforementioned word, the blogger would select a journalist.
Wonder what Alex will say if this appears in the paper implying there are links to the SNP. Either that or the blogger is going to get a nice letter from some expensive lawyers.......
"
Who cares? It's not for Alex (Salmond, i presume?), to dictate what people publish on their blogs. I'm looking forward to see what he publishes in his paper, it might go someway to explaing wtf a newspaper editor is doing having a go a ta blogger for anything (perhaps you can help me with that one) If the blogger gets a nice letter from some expensive lawyers then that will be a consequence the blogger will have to face - for me it'll certainly confirm the picture he paints.
So forgetting what some SNP High Command might think of it - why are you bothered?
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292. Neil_Small147
"The Labour Party may be using the media to put the SNP in a bad light..."
They've CERTAINLY never done that before! Ha! Now THAT is amusing!
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287. Neil_Small147
"Small snippet for all those who think Chavez in Venezuala is a good model for Scotland to follow:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8372250.stm"
Eh?
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217 grassy knollington
priceless absolutely priceless !
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297. At 11:34pm on 21 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
I KNEW it would be Christine Grahame before I even opened the link!
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303. At 00:04am on 22 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee:
One or two people commented that Chavez is a good example of a world leader because he hates the USA. That article might get them to revise their opinion.
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300. At 11:49pm on 21 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
Read the title. It's obviously not a uni publication, but one either from a student (likely) or a politics lecturer.
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301. At 11:50pm on 21 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee:
I'm bothered because I like the SNP as the Scottish Government, and don't want them derailed because a bunch of idiots start posting offensive trash. As pointed out earlier, it took one blogger to cause the avalance of the expenses scandal. How do you know that articles like this might not suddenly pick up steam?
Now I'm getting paranoid......
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2. At 00:00am on 22 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
I used the word "may" just in case MI5 - a wonderful organisation - are reading this.....
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294. At 11:32pm on 21 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
I'm not one to worry about swearing, but I don't publicly describe someone in that manner. That blogger IS asking to be sued.
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297. At 11:34pm on 21 Nov 2009, JRMacClure:
Do a little bit of research into the bad days of the cold war, and what countries some of our wonderful trade union leaders had links with. Then you will understand why governments of the day had genuine concerns.
-------------
289. At 11:13pm on 21 Nov 2009, oldnat:
Looks good, as long as the nimby brigade etc keep clear it might actually develop into something major.
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305. Neil_Small147
"I'm not one to worry about swearing, but I don't publicly describe someone in that manner. That blogger IS asking to be sued."
Well, neither do I but a lot of people do, including in blogs, even political blogs. I think you're over reacting a bit. Headlines of "SNP blogger called Jim Murphy a "c" word" just would be too silly even for them. And is Jim Murphy really going to want to ADVERTISE that a lot of Scots think that of him by suing over it? I doubt it.
Obviously, I don't mind debating, but please don't represent my comments as something I didn't ever say OR imply.
I am well aware that Trade Unions have had links to communitsts, etc. Since when is that a crime? But if such links can be PROVEN then perhaps it justifies an investigation. That is rather different than keeping a file on everyone who ever showed up at any demonstration, as a rather concrete example
The old saying: First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out...
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306. JRMacClure
*sigh* And no that does not mean that I am saying they are going to snatch people off the street. But it applies to other things as well.
Maybe first it is the communists' right to free assembly without intimidation. A shocking idea, I realize. Whose rights are after that? Oh, yes, I think you said the Trade Unionists shouldn't have it. Well, I stand by my belief that until there is at least SOME evidence of wrong-doing NO such attack on my freedoms OR YOURS should occur.
I regret that you don't feel the same, apparently, but so be it.
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JRMacClure:
#274.
"Other than your attack on me as an American, exactly what was your "simple question"? Am I willing to give up my freedom to prevent some terrorist attack.
No.
There. Is that a simple enough answer for you?"
My attack against you as an American? Because I felt that your problems are your problems and simply because your officials abused their power, it should not suggest that British officials would be the same?
But I must ask, your freedom? Do you not have the freedom to live your life in peace, if I could prevent such an attack would I not be protecting your very right to life?
mrbfaethedee:
#279.
"No you aren't alone, and if some of the others who would ditch democracy happen to be in positions of power near the heart of key systems with the power to define others as 'extremists', what then?"
If a person reaches a position of power unnoticed and follows extremist ideology, I would be worried. However what would you do to protect our rights? How do you propose we tackle Islamic extremists and seperatists in Great Britain? How do you propose we tackle militant groups which take part in criminal acts under the guise of protests?
I don't have a sinister agenda but I don't believe a democracy can survive in a growing world with less and less resources. How can we protect the long-term interests of mankind while respecting our rights?
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305. Neil_Small147
"Read the title. It's obviously not a uni publication, but one either from a student (likely) or a politics lecturer."
You're kidding. If that's the worst some Glasgow university student ever posts, it'll be a miracle of major proportions. 305. Neil_Small147
"Read the title. It's obviously not a uni publication, but one either from a student (likely) or a politics lecturer."
If that is the worst some Glasgow university student ever posts, it'll be a miracle of major proportions. Get a grip.
In that one the "c" word is even masked, for heaven's sake. I thought you were talking about Wardog's blog where at least he DID say something fairly offensive.
Really, you accuse other people of paranoia and think that any newspaper is going to worry about anything that is in that post.
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"Plans for Forth hovercraft service announced"
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/plans-for-forth-hovercraft-service-announced-1.933066
Hopefully this will come to pass. The trial service seemed to be very popular.
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308. Thomas_Porter
"But I must ask, your freedom? Do you not have the freedom to live your life in peace, if I could prevent such an attack would I not be protecting your very right to life? "
Having taken my freedom in order to "protect my life"?
Let me answer again. A simple straightforward answer: No. I am not willing to give up my freedom for your "peace".
And yes, thinking that Americans are somehow uniquely evil and the wonderful British would NEVER do such a thing is indeed an attack on Americans.
You might should be aware that Guido Fawkes goes to some lengths to be sure that he can't be reached legally, such as hosting his blog out of UK territory. You better believe the UK government would do such things. Wardog made a basic error in thinking that he was too small for someone to go after him and he left himself vulnerable to an attack of intimidation. It was easy to do and didn't even cost much of anything, an hour or two of someone's time.
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310. oldnat
""Plans for Forth hovercraft service announced"
"
Very interesting, Oldnat. I hope it does work out!
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It's an interesting question. Exactly what is freedom? Is it just "not being snatched off the street"?
Or is it by any chance the right to express unpopular political beliefs? To demonstrate against weapon fairs without one's photo being put in police files as an "extremist"? Being able to associate with someone whose political opinions the government might approve?
Or is it the right to keep my head down so no one notices me and then I'll be left to live in peace?
Those are questions I answered for myself a long time ago, truthfully, but perhaps they're worth thinking over again.
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287. Neil_Small147
"MI5"
"Does anyone here honestly believe that MI5 is about to start snatching independence activists and government critics off the street.
By all means lets have a debate, but get back to reality please"
I seldom get really annoyed by what passes on this blog, but recent contributions from Neil and Thomas would try the patience of a saint. Do they really subscribe to the crazy notion that 'it couldn't happen here'?
Let's light a candle for those who blether in the dark. Perhaps the following footage will illuminate Neil's path to reality and, after we've looked at the evidence, let's ask Thomas how he would explain the killing of this victim, Mr Ian Tomlinson, to his heartbroken family.
Who infiltrates the Met to protect the innocent from thugs in uniform and who protects us from the machinery that protects them?
Police target environmental protesters and journalists
Police threaten photographers with arrest
Police tactics: shield to face
Police officer refuses to give ID number
Arrested for asking a policeman for his badge number
London's Pride
Who needs MI5?
The threat to ordinary citizens (subjects) is growing daily and, what's worse, the persecuted are paying the wages of their persecutors.
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314. albamac
"London's Pride"
Brave cop assaulting a woman who doesn't even come up to his chin. Afraid of having their picture taken or giving out their IDs.
So that's the standards of conduct of bobbies these days. They used to have a good reputation. So much for that.
And that's what happens in the open. What about when no one is looking? Willie MacRae? Dr David Kelly? How many others one has to wonder.
Does it make you feel safer?
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First of all I would like to thank the Scottish Rugby Union for employing an Englishman to form a team that has finally beaten the Aussies! God bless that Englishman! What a fantastic game!
Back to politics now. Let's get this into perspective. If the security services of the UK was not investigating a political party that wants to see the break up of the UK then I would seriously be thinking of taking them to task for not doing their job which is to defend the interests of the UK. At the end of the day these people (the masters of the security services) are only doing their job and what they believe is appropriate for their beliefs and upbringing. I disagree with them and that is all that I am willing to do.
# 287 Neil_Small147
Small snippet for all those who think Chavez in Venezuala is a good model for Scotland to follow:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8372250.stm
What, exactly, are you trying to imply here? Are you saying that the SNP might take the same stance as this man? I sincerely hope that you are not and that I have mistaken your post. I would be grateful if you can explain this to me as I find this to be very offensive.
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Somebody called Mr Murphy a " chump" did they?
Mr Mandelson did indeed set a bad example when describing the Sun writers as "chumps" did he not?
JR , you have probably realised by now that Neil is a " damning with faint praise " artist ,at least where the Scottish Government is concerned.Rather like the media of Scotland.
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317. Diabloandco
Yes, indeed, I have.
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317. Diabloandco
"Somebody called Mr Murphy a " chump" did they?
Mr Mandelson did indeed set a bad example when describing the Sun writers as "chumps" did he not?"
Well, we all know it was fine for Mr. Mandelson to say but a scandal for an SNP supporter. Why it might have even made the newspapers! =)
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316. gedguy2
"Back to politics now. Let's get this into perspective. If the security services of the UK was not investigating a political party that wants to see the break up of the UK then I would seriously be thinking of taking them to task for not doing their job which is to defend the interests of the UK. "
I think one might debate whether running the politics of the UK is indeed within the remit of any police body. But I'm willing to take your opinion as given, especially since YOU live where they can do stuff to your ability to make a living.
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315. JRMacClure
"Brave cop assaulting a woman who doesn't even come up to his chin."
What most people won't notice, at first viewing, is that this hero has white covers over his epaulettes, hiding his number. That's not a fashion choice! He assaults a woman in full view of the press and public, having already been authorised to break the law and pervert the course of justice by his superiors.
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#314 albamac
Good citation
Might want to add Jean Charles De Menezes to that list as well as
James Ashley http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4296217.stm
Regardless of whether that officer thought his life was in danger - he volunteered to be a firearms officer. That in my book means if you screw up - you pay the price. If you don't want the responsibility to take a life - don't volunteer. If you volunteer, you should be bound to accept the consequences if you make a mistake.
That no-one was jailed or sacked for that cold blooded murder is a disgrace to the idea of justice.
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# 320 JRMacClure
I think one might debate whether running the politics of the UK is indeed within the remit of any police body
I don't agree that it should be within the remit of the police to run politics in this country. Let me try and explain my position on this.
Do I support the police in their job of protecting law and order?
Yes I do. I don't want to live in a country where anarchy is the norm, but neither do I want to live in a police state. The police have a difficult job to do and, even more difficult for them is to decide what the objectives are considering law and order. Given the chance there are many groups out there who would be delighted if law and order broke down which would enable them to wrest control of this country from the ordinary citizen. I'm sure that you have those types of people and organisations in your country as well. The difficulty comes when the police have to make a decision as to what a person or organisation present to the well being and order of society. We tend to forget that the police are there also to protect businesses as well as people and property. If you have rioters determined to wreck havoc in the business centres (mostly London) of this country then the police have a duty to protect those businesses, as I am sure that the majority of us would agree. The police are more than aware of the multitude of different organisations that congregate during G20 summits etc who are hell bent on causing disruption and chaos to put over their point of view. The police are also aware that they will be made the targets for the majority of those groups.
Accepting that, I would also hasten to add that there will be a sizable majority of innocent people at those types of gatherings who just want to peacefully put over their opposition to whatever it is that they believe in. The problem that the police have is that the 'opposition' are not in uniform and it may be difficult for an ordinary policeman to differentiate between an agitator and a peaceful person who gets carried away with the situation. Remember that I 'dated' a young woman who was a professional left wing 'extremist' in the 70s and learned a lot from her. As you do when you are 'forced' to listen to women ;-). They deliberately tried to get the police to act inan unlawful manner so that their photographers could use that as evidence of police brutality and print it in their left wing papers.
Do I believe that the police are heavy handed at times?
Absolutely, but they are human and make mistakes. We see, in this internet age, dozens of policemen who use tactics which to the ordinary Joe Bloggs would seem to be inappropriate behaviour. However, what we don't see is the vast majority of policemen who act within the law and do a good job. This doesn't make good headlines. If the police were as bad as what everyone is making out that they were then we would be swamped with thousands of video and photographs of the British policeman being bad. We don't see that because, as a rule, the British police are quite good, in comparison with other countries.
Do I believe that there are sections of the Police Force whose function is suspect, when it comes to the democratic process?
Yes, I do believe that. I don't believe that the police should hold the DNA of innocent people (I believe that they are breaking EU law by doing so). I am suspicious of police phone tapping politicians but I understand that not all politicians are there for the benefit of the British State and, as such, it would be remiss of the police not to keep an eye on them. There are other sections of the police Force that I am suspicious of but I won't go into that now.
On the whole, I back the police and I always will. One of the reasons that the British public find the actions of some police officers and sections of Police Forces unacceptable is that we basically believe in the rights of the British public to go about their ordinary business and, if that means demonstrating, in a peaceful manner, when we believe the Government has got it wrong, have the right to express our opinion without being hounded by the forces of law and order. This is not an easy subject and passions tend to get inflamed, on both sides, but at the end of the day I would rather have this society and all its faults than live in anarchy or a police state.
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305. Neil_Small147
"303. At 00:04am on 22 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee:
One or two people commented that Chavez is a good example of a world leader because he hates the USA. That article might get them to revise their opinion."
Fair enough I suppose, if you think it's important. Note that while we can sit here and get upset over what Chavez says, we are at the same through our actions using our soldiers lives propping up a corrupt regime in Afghanistan which has, amongst other things the insitutionalised abuse of women.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8372751.stm
A bit ******* late to apologise now......
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I hear that MSP Jack McConnell, erstwhile Scottish Labour First Minister, future Baron McConnell of Wishaw and High Commissioner to Malawi (in waiting), has decided that he will NOT retire at the next election but will again enter the fray in Motherwell & Wishaw.
Ah...the future had looked so rosy when he negotiated with Gordon Broon for all those rich rewards in return for stepping down as leader in favour of wee Wendy...
As always Robert Burns had the right words words.."The Best Laid Plans o mice and men gang aft agley..."
TheTimes. "Jack McConnell Plans a Comeback" :http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6927071.ece
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305. Neil_Small147
"I'm bothered because I like the SNP as the Scottish Government, and don't want them derailed because a bunch of idiots start posting offensive trash. As pointed out earlier, it took one blogger to cause the avalance of the expenses scandal. How do you know that articles like this might not suddenly pick up steam? "
If you honestly think that the wide range of people who support any political movement are going to adopt a common standard of practice which happens to fit your idea of what bloggers ought to publish, i think you are being amazingly unrealistic.
You may find it offensive because of the language, but is it trash because it contains offensive language?
I'm glad that the 'blogosphere' is currently able to support the widest range of style and quality. You appear to disagree, you will no doubt be as heartened as a i am saddened the pcc is looking (futilely IMO) to get some regulatory authority over blogs (Mandy will be rubbing his hands as he stitches up the rest of UK net access).
There is no real reason why the SNP or independence movement should be derailed because some people take offence to some of the content that private individuals post, unless the media is allowed to paint the picture it wants without answer. Which requires a media in the pocket of, or at least partisanly on the side the unionist agenda. Which is ironic, because that's waht started this whole thing off - figures from the media apparently intimidating a blogger.
You seem to think it serves him right, so that makes it all right. You havent told me why you think political editors should be making contact with a blogger and apparently applying pressure to him. Although you have no trouble telling why the bloggers are getting it all wrong.
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324. At 10:13am on 22 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote:
Absolutely in agreement. The whole affair in Afghanistan was soured with the elections being rigged. We should now get out and leave them to it, since Pakistan and India are likely to come to blows in the near future anyway.
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308. Thomas_Porter
"If a person reaches a position of power unnoticed and follows extremist ideology, I would be worried. However what would you do to protect our rights? How do you propose we tackle Islamic extremists and seperatists in Great Britain? How do you propose we tackle militant groups which take part in criminal acts under the guise of protests?"
The point is - what defines extremism? Who gets to choose?
You can't protect our rights by taking them away?
We tackle criminal acts by prosecuting them under criminal law, in exactly the same way as we seek to do for every other criminal act. What else do you need? - you find a criminal act has been committed, find the perpetrator, arrest them and have them prosecuted under the law.
If you think our police forces are not capable of performing these standard police activities, you may want to be getting on a high horse about pulling them up to scratch, insead of 'solving' it by saying they can do whatever they need (including taking away the rights you claim to want to protect) to tackle people they can arbitrarily designate as extremists.
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#326 - "I hear that MSP Jack McConnell, erstwhile Scottish Labour First Minister, future Baron McConnell of Wishaw and High Commissioner to Malawi (in waiting), has decided that he will NOT retire at the next election but will again enter the fray in Motherwell & Wishaw.
Ah...the future had looked so rosy when he negotiated with Gordon Broon for all those rich rewards in return for stepping down as leader in favour of wee Wendy..."
Although I can't completely suppress a wee chuckle at yet another example of Labour completely dumping on somebody who sacrificed themselves on Labour's behalf (hope your taking note, BT), this could be a fascinating battle if, as expected, old Skeletor loses his Westminster seat and decides to throw his hat into the ring at Holyrood. McConnell vs Murphy vs Gray. Scottish Labour will tear themselves apart!
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323. gedguy2
Well, I don't want to exaggerate the problem, because I suspect you are right that the majority of police don't try to pervert the course of justice and really do want to do what it right.
That said, I've watched that film of the assault on Mr. Tomlinson a number of times, since the incident wasn't new to me. That was not provoked. It was murder, in my opinion. That someone else hasn't died in some of those assaults is pure luck. It is the job of the police to learn to handle such situations, not to assault citizens out of frustration. Do you not question why citizens in the UK find it necessary to monitor their own police? And question why such people doing nothing more than taking photos and IDing police are assaulted and arrested?
Yes, demonstrators can work to provoke the police. The entire episode of the police riots at the Chicago Democratic Convention is 1968 is a good case in point.
But when it comes to politics, the police have no business in it unless they have probably cause to get involved. If probable cause applies to individuals "in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" at least as much so must be our elected officials since they represent ALL of us in that regard. No one has mentioned the arrest of Damian Green but this is something I consider particularly chilling for democracy that the police would act on the behest of a particular political party.
For example, the right of the police to wiretap--with minimal oversight (Privacy on the line: the politics of wiretapping and encryption by Diffie and Landau is an interesting read if you have the interest), the use of ubiquitous cameras to watch the entire populace... These are things that are very worrying for civil liberties.
Police in Britain have a range of arbitrary powers, more so than in many other democracies, which are alarmingly invasive of personal liberties. And I find it even more alarming that people such as you think that the only choice is between the police having such powers and total anarchy.
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317. At 08:39am on 22 Nov 2009, Diabloandco wrote:
People are entitled to their views. Don't start with snide comments that somehow I'm being forced to admit the SNP are doing well or whatever. I've already said they are my preferred choice for government, it's the independence issue I have a few concerns about.
316. At 07:59am on 22 Nov 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
Read the comment. One or two individuals on this blog had been positive about Chavez. I never once implied that the SNP would follow him. More likely Tommy Sheridan and George Galloway might though.
314. At 05:12am on 22 Nov 2009, albamac wrote:
Most of what you have linked rightly shows abuse. The Ian Tomlison issue is basically pure assault with no defence.
But, when it comes to protests that turn violent, put yourself in the position of the police. Some people react badly to fear, and until you have actually been in a similar situation it is unfair to comment.
With G20 protests around the world, look at the damage that is caused. So governments and police forces start reacting to this. The poll tax riots in the 90s were shocking for their violence.
I'm not against protests, they are part of our democracy. But elements are in their for their own purposes. Maybe the government has put plants in, but there are plenty of extremist groups who want violence and a similar reaction from the police to further their own cause.
This does not however justify any illegal actions by the police.
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323. gedguy2
"we basically believe in the rights of the British public to go about their ordinary business and, if that means demonstrating, in a peaceful manner, when we believe the Government has got it wrong, have the right to express our opinion without being hounded by the forces of law and order."
I think you'll find this interesting. It just about sums up my thoughts on the subject.
Ken Macdonald QC, quoted in The Guardian:
"We need to be on the same side as the police. And the police need to be on the same side as the rule of law. In classical common law doctrine, this means that they are subject to exactly the same constraints as the rest of us. This is not a weakness in their armoury. On the contrary, under our system it is their greatest strength because it brings the police the co-operation and consent of the public.
So here are some questions for the IPCC to consider as it investigates the events leading to Ian Tomlinson's death: why were British police officers attending a demonstration in the heart of London with their identifying numbers hidden? In the absence of a fire risk, who authorised them to pull balaclavas up over their heads? And why didn't they want anyone to see their faces?"
He's talking, I think, about a broken covenant and it's clear, from his questions, that he already knows who's breaking it. I agree.
Incidentally, my grandson is a policeman.
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330. ForteanJo
"McConnell vs Murphy vs Gray. Scottish Labour will tear themselves apart!"
That should be fun to watch! But I have a feeling poor Iain Gray will be eaten alive.
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328. Neil_Small147
I think we should get out asap too.
Re: Chavez, he's a difficult man to read in black and white terms, and words alone shouldn't be the currency used to form a categorical opinion.
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332. Neil_Small147
"But, when it comes to protests that turn violent, put yourself in the position of the police. Some people react badly to fear, and until you have actually been in a similar situation it is unfair to comment."
That made me smile, Neil. I'm ex-Army. :)
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332. Neil_Small147
"Some people react badly to fear, and until you have actually been in a similar situation it is unfair to comment."
It is never unfair to comment about the government and the police. They work for the people not the other way around. It is their duty to protect the people and the rights of the people, not to destroy their rights.
I know that you don't much care about people's rights. You've said as much so we aren't likely to agree on the subject. But the "you can't comment" would mean that we had no right to support laws and regulations to control the police, which I find an absurd proposition.
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336. At 11:08am on 22 Nov 2009, albamac wrote:
I'm ex-Forces as well. But when you are faced with a mob where someone wants to hurt you, how do you think some of them will react. I'm not justifying blatant assaults on innocents, but a lot of these protestors want a reaction from the police.
There was one protestor who found herself facing a damages claim for several thousand pounds from a bank if I remember rightly. Peaceful protester?
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337. At 11:32am on 22 Nov 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
So what are you saying? That protestors have free rein to run around wrecking the place?
There is a difference between protesting loudly and damaging property. The police must be controlled and operate within the law. But that means protestors must also operate within the law, something that does not always happen either.
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339. Neil_Small147
"So what are you saying?"
I am saying that citizens have a right to protest police abuses whether you like their having that right or not.
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339. Neil_Small147
"That protestors have free rein to run around wrecking the place?"
Funny, would you point to where I used th words "free rein" or "wrecking the place"? I'd like to be reminded of EXACTLY where I made those references.
I believe I DID refer to the rights of the people to "comment" which YOU said we do not have. We also have a right to demand laws reining in police abuses whether YOU like people having that right or not.
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To those that dont believe that the police and security services have been used in the passed to undermine and incriminate the independence movement, I take you back to my earlier post and ask you to watch George Rosie's excellent expose "Diomhair'. Those of you who dont speak Gaelic will just have to read the English sub titles, but its there for all to see. What interests me is why BBC Scotland did not use the research gained under FOI to do an English version, when after all, not everyone can receive BBC Alba. And why did the rest of the Scottish media not follow it up?
Conspiracy? Surely not!! And dont tell me that the security services are not still doing it right now. After all, the 'threat' is much more potent now.
http://scottishindependenceconvention.org. Click on resources button.
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342. Independista
It is very well worth watching even for those of us who have to read the subtitles.
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For what it's worth, the IPSOS Mori poll in the Observer, taken the week-end after Glasgow NE, gives the SNP approximately 34% in Scotland. However, on a calculated sample of 67, don't put too much reliance on that figure.
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Re my post 342. For some reason, the link does'nt seem to be working.
Ill try it again.
http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.org/ResouceMain.asp
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Interesting to see that this week's edition of The Economist(November21st-27th) has not made any reference to the Glasgow NE by-election result.It's not even mentioned en passant.
There are nine articles about the UK,including a piece about the healthy rate of Scottish start-up businesses,but nothing about Labour's 'excellent win'.It looks as if the magazine's editors agree with the opinion of the majority of us on here that the result lacked real significance as regards the GE.
Although The Economist is no great friend of New Labour(no friend at all to the SNP)it is always objective enough to give attention to any significant political development.
P.S. The result came too late for last week's edition in case anyone's wondering.
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#344
One small item that may bolster the IPSOS Mori % is that they found about half that number voting Nat at the 2005 election, when the SNP % was 17.69, so the 34% is a bit more reasonable.
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Losing it Indeed:
Latest whisky "protection" point 1) good, point 2) - Oh dear!
1) Five categories of Scotch Whisky are defined for the first time; Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Single Grain Scotch Whisky, Blended Malt Scotch Whisky, Blended Grain Scotch Whisky, and Blended Scotch Whisky.
2) A requirement to only bottle Single Malt Scotch Whisky in Scotland.
WTS: SWA members and associated chums bulk exporting whisky to who knows where as it is cheaper to bottle and will hence increase profit.
Otherwise there are some other sensible stuff but I was disapointed by this loop hole
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342 Although I don't speak a word I have begun to tune into BBC Alba as some of the stuff is realy very good. There was a terrific programme on the fascists in Hungary recently and some of the output is putting BBC Glasgow to shame..... stil they can always report on Garl and the latest from the old Squirm
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Anyone read the drivel in the Sunday herald about coaching the SNP especially Alex Salmond to be " nice"?
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# 331 JRMacClure
I think that we are basically in agreement. Neither of us like it when the police overstep the mark and I assume that both of us don't like the idea of some of the 'political' activities of the police. However, I am also sure that you would like to live in a world where we peace and order reign.
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Spying, infiltration, intimidation, MI5 plants, News papers calling my home/work (that would be a laugh). As bendy wendy says BRING IT OAN! For every "wardog", every Willie McRae, every dissapaerance/discrepencie 10 will take their place. I can only go by my own psychology but intimdation makes me 10 times the opponent.
In the long run if it is all true, and I'm sure some of it is it will only put backs up even more. It may be possible to fear people into shutting up for a while but what emerges is a more determined beasty.
'Mon news of the world gees a bell, I'll even gee you my work number. I make no seceret of my position to anyone. And every skeleton in my closet has been aired and shared. (Spose I'll be a classic candidate for being "Dissapeared" then, their comming to take me away ha ha;)
Can anyone supply even a small summary of what this wardog was saying? I only managed to get a look at his resigning msg.
Oh its a great buzz this blogging, and we even have Neil being afraid of hurting the feelings of MI5 - oh, the fear!!!
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351. gedguy2
I am sure that we do agree on that. :-)
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352. Phil_Anthropponent
"Oh its a great buzz this blogging, and we even have Neil being afraid of hurting the feelings of MI5 - oh, the fear!!!"
Gosh, that would be bad! Don't hurt their wee feelings!
Giving a summary of Wardog's blog entries... they were lengthy. He put a lot of thought and work into them (in spite of calling Mr. Murphy a "chump"--or something like that in a recent post) which makes his having to take them down too bad.
He had made quite a number of FOI requests. He did a lengthy post on and was the first I saw who discussed Socialist Labour getting 4000 votes in 2005 and 47! in 2009 in the GNE bye which (if you make some deductions why that would have happened) could very much change any analysis of the election and then posted that he had received emails from certain newspaper editors regarding the apparent fact that his blog was posted from his university.
A VERY brief summary. I'm sure someone can give you a more thorough analysis.
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352. At 1:37pm on 22 Nov 2009, Phil_Anthropponent:
Well, I've checked both garden sheds, the loft, the cold water tank and under the floor. I taped some cotton thread along doors in case someone sneaked in and changed my wireless password to stop them hacking in. I've also hacked into my neighbour's wireless connection so they might think it is him instead. Checked under the car with a mirror and will take alternative routes to work this week, if necessary travelling via Brussels, stopping only to seduce the drop dead gorgeous blonde bombshell from MI5 who will of course turn against her bosses.
Problem is, I don't like Martini.......
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# 332 Neil_Small147
I did read your comment which was why I posted my # 316. If I have taken your post the wrong way then I'll happily apologise.
# 333 albamac
These are the very policemen who are giving the police Force a bad name. Sorry to hear about your grandson ;-)
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For those of you interested in what's happening to Wardog
Scotsman newspaper article
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#345 Independista
"Re my post 342. For some reason, the link does'nt seem to be working."
Thanks for the link, but the reason your link didn't work first time is that if you don't use proper hypertext links the blog parser can get confused about where your link ends. In this case, you placed a full stop straight after the link, which is usually a bad idea.
To be on the safe side, always make such links the end of a line:
http://scottishindependenceconvention.org
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352. Phil_Anthropponent
"Can anyone supply even a small summary of what this wardog was saying? I only managed to get a look at his resigning msg. "
He likened Jim Murphy to vulgar term for female genitalia.
He asked question's about Bain's council tax paymnents.
He made foi requests, not 100% clear what on but it may be postal votes and/or Jim Murphy.
He made statements about an incident he claims to have witnessed where Richard Baker, barged past people (including an auld wifey) to get a seat on a bus.
That's my current understanding.
Although the blog is down, google has the pages in its cache, if you know how to find the page you can get it from google's cache. For example, if you google - "Wardog: Jim Murphy" the first result is the one you want, but don't click on it, if you look at the bottom right of that google result tou'll see a link saying 'Cached', click on that instead.
The one about willie bain's council appears not to even be in the cache anymore, despite the fact that older posts are - maybe they got a takedown request?
Incidentaly -
According to Wardog, part of the Euan McColm's intimation was that he was going to use Wrdog's claims in a piece this weekend -
"Dear Mr Newlands,
I wonder if you could help with a couple of questions for a news piece I am writing for this weekend's edition of The News of the World?"
Does anyone know if anything was actually published?
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352. Phil_Anthropponent
"Can anyone supply even a small summary of what this wardog was saying? I only managed to get a look at his resigning msg. "
WARDOG AND JIM MURPHY AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH
"We need to make sure that we get across the message that we do not want to live in a Scotland that in any way resembles the East Germany of 25 years ago. We must be free to say what we want, within reason, and that includes calling Cabinet Ministers by four letter words. Wardog was not asking us to rise to arms, he was not suggesting rebellion. He merely wrote his opinion of Jim Murphy. Brown may want us to have no freedoms in the United Kingdom. We must not let this happen in Scotland."
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My computer has been out of action so haven't been able to coment on the police thing. I was recently involved in a bit of a standoff with the police at an event in Glasgow. Basically, while I was holding the hands of two six year old boys the ten year old in front of me got swept up in the crowd and taken through a break in the barrier. Police restored the break before I could get through to get him. After explaining the situation to the police officer he replied "I'm sorry madam, this is not an exit". Everything I said to him after that got the same response. Eventually they opened the barrier and I got to an extremely upset little boy who now sees the police as the bad guys.
And what was this anarchic event? The switch on of the Christmas lights with the Singing Kettle.
I was shocked at the attitude of the police.
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357. ksimes
Thanks for link.
Yeah, like they're really bothered that some guy on the internet called Jim Murphy a C* !
This is the non-politics that counts for politics on this isle.
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Online Ed Here
350. At 1:31pm on 22 Nov 2009, Diabloandco wrote:
Anyone read the drivel in the Sunday herald about coaching the SNP especially Alex Salmond to be " nice"?
Yes, along with the shamelessly manipulated articles on the other stories - the funding body to help those on low incomes going 'broke' when it has only used up this years funds. Demonstrates the success of the scheme as well as the plight of many that it was so oversubscribed.
The other puts a negative spin on the excellent idea of local authorities buying up private housing in order to ease the housing crisis.
I hear the SNP are reviewing their strategy in the face of negative campaigning and smears from both Labour and the media. I am also hearing that the SNP are very much aware of an anti-SNP agenda at BBC Scotland.
It's going to be very interesting to see if the SNP interviewees adopt a more aggressive stance when faced with the likes of Glenn Campbell.
Scotland is currently witnessing a kind of 'war' between those of us who wish to evolve (whatever shape it takes) and those who have very real self interest in maintaining this current set up.
Currently the independence minded online community is pretty fragmented - we need to try to co-ordinate this huge resource.
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Online Ed Here
I cannot believe what I have just read in the SOS - I really cannot believe it.
A blogger has been targetted by the Scottish media as a result of his use of a less flattering term to describe Jim Murphy.
His questions on Willie Bain were reasonable given Bains insistence that he was a local man, indeed the question is why these were not being asked by our media?
I cannot comment on the Richard Baker incident but if the blogger says he witnessed the incident then we have to take him at his word - has Baker been asked to comment?
This is a new low for the Scottish press.
It will absolutely form the basis of an article in the next edition of Newsnet Scotland.
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The detailed PDF of the new MORI poll is now available to download here and shows yet again that the current "headline" Tory lead of 6% is no such thing when the very different factors which apply to the Celtic and Gaelic fringes are removed.
The "Lead" is actually 6.47% across the island if MORI's data and weighting are to be believed, and 8.85% in England, where they're probably more accurate.
The actual percentages are:
Party, England, GB
Con, 40.48%, 37.50%
Lab, 31.64%, 31.03%
L-D, 16.89%, 17.41%
Other, 10.99%, 14.06%
I've asked before, but if anyone knows of a Westmidden calculator where you can enter the four national predictions to come up with a revised House of Cards I would extremely grateful if they would post a link.
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365. Brownedov
Like you I've posted this on UK Polling Report as well.
Obviously we won’t know whether this is a rogue poll or a prescient indicator until the next round of polling, but a golden rule for historians when studying limited data is to ask “Is it likely?”
Looking at the changes from October in Mori produces
Party, GB, Eng
Con, -4.9%, -7.0%
Lab, +5.4%, +7.2%
LD, -1.1%, -3.8%
Oth, +2.7%, +2.9%
It simply seems unlikely that the shift from Con to Lab should be greater in England than in GB as a whole.
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364. At 3:58pm on 22 Nov 2009, U14094468:
I said the papers would use something like this, but I did not expect it this quickly.
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/education/Lecturer-faces-blog-inquiry.5846750.jp
And the implication is that there is a link to the SNP, even though they have deplored the blog. And the article does refer to the incident when Alex Salmond was described in a similar manner.
NOW do people believe me?
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JRMacClure:
#311.
"And yes, thinking that Americans are somehow uniquely evil and the wonderful British would NEVER do such a thing is indeed an attack on Americans."
Did I say Americans are evil? No I did not.
Did I say the British would not stoop to such a low level? No I did not either.
So, why are you making things up? Either way, for an American I don't believe you can claim to be under attack. It's a slight over reaction considering the long list of American activities that actually include attacks on people and countries. That's real attacks against real people and not simply you being easily offended.
Yes, you could quite well point out British issues too but I am not British and to be honest I really couldn't care less about the Americans and British activities so long as it does not effect my interests.
:-)
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Nearly half of voters back Scottish public broadcaster
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#365 Brownedov
I think you ask for an impossibility. Even electoralcalculus does not attempt NI results and, having regard to the difficulties in producing HEC, you really need a Welsh political enthusiast to construct an equivalent for 4 party politics in Wales.
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Online Ed Here
367. At 5:13pm on 22 Nov 2009, Neil_Small147 wrote:
I said the papers would use something like this, but I did not expect it this quickly.
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/education/Lecturer-faces-blog-inquiry.5846750.jp
And the implication is that there is a link to the SNP, even though they have deplored the blog. And the article does refer to the incident when Alex Salmond was described in a similar manner.
NOW do people believe me?
What's to believe?
This is a thinly veiled threat to the independence online community that they need to tread carefully.
This has nothing to do with a blogger calling Jim Murphy a name, it is to do with the use of the democratic processes such as Freedom of Information requests.
The term used by the blogger is common currency throughout not just Scotland but the whole of the UK, albeit one that is usually restricted to less than sophisticated debate.
It is generally defined as meaning someone who is untrustworthy, two faced, self serving or just someone who is obnoxious and perhaps posesses character traits that might be viewed as less than attractive.
Do not be fooled into believing that this is anythiing other than a shot across the bows of non Unionist bloggers.
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#366 oldnat
"It simply seems unlikely that the shift from Con to Lab should be greater in England than in GB as a whole."
Fair comment, but there are other factors to consider.
The fact that only 43.02% (Oct 43.71%) of those sampled are certain to vote indicates that either the GE is going to have the lowest turnout since WW2 by a country mile (2001 holds that record with nearly 60% in both Scotland + England - not sure of GB figure) OR that many who will actually vote have not made up their minds or perhaps are reluctant to admit who they're voting for.
There's also the absence of weighting by political ID, which must give greater likelihood of an outlier.
I do believe that Cameron made it "acceptable" in polite English company to mention that one was considering voting Tory. At the time of this particular poll, the immediacy of the dropping of the Lisbon referendum pledge - which I regard, BTW as perfectly sensible in the circumstances while the NuLab and UnLib unDem positions remain entirely scurrilous - will have certainly driven some away, perhaps temporarily. Some will have switched to UKIP (English "Other" increased from 8% to nearly 11%) while others may have moved back to NuLab thinking that all parties are equal when it comes to promising things.
In the Celtic and Gaelic fringes as well as parts of Northern England, there is doubtless still a touching belief that Labour bears some relation to the party of Keir Hardie and Nye Bevan whereas I suspect the Bliarite NuLab sales pitch in Southern England attracted an inherently much more floating voter.
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"albeit one that is usually restricted to less than sophisticated debate." and Lord Mandelson!
I would'nt worry your wee head about the Wardog tale in the SoS , fewer and fewer people are reading the SoS and the Scotsman, so few in fact it may go "p%%f" and cease to exist!
But of course it could get the Mr Megrahi treatment - in a glencambelly sort of way.
I apparently failed the profanity moderater presumably with the word now encrypted!
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367. Neil_Small147
Now do poeple believe YOU?
YOU were the one who said it was impossible that they would go after ONE LOWLY BLOGGER.
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367. Neil_Small147
It doesn't matter. Of course they are going to use it, of course they always were. I don't recall anyone disputing it with you.
The point is that they are allowed to. The point is that in order for them to do it they had to go out of their way to get someone to do it to. Why is noone asking why the print media in scotland have nothing better to do than create oxymoronic 'news' that some guy on the internet called Jim Murphy a C* ?
You still haven't told me why this is sufficiently earth shattering news that the political editors of three Scottish papers 'contacted' this blogger.
Why is it that the story has moved on to the shock revelation that people on the internet sometimes use bad words?
Becuase there are people out there that simply accept it in those terms!
It's not! It's about selectively showing that the establishment is prepared to play dirty not only with challenges from organisations with resources of their own, but also with private citizens expressing their views in public media channels.
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368. Thomas_Porter
"Yes, you could quite well point out British issues too but I am not British and to be honest I really couldn't care less about the Americans and British activities so long as it does not effect my interests.
"
Ah, but they do.
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"Online Ed Here
I cannot believe what I have just read in the SOS - I really cannot believe it.
A blogger has been targetted by the Scottish media as a result of his use of a ""less flattering term"" to describe Jim Murphy.
This is a new low for the Scottish press."
So it's ok to miscall the Scottish Secretary or anyone else for that matter using whatever term/s you choose?
I have recently had correspondence with Mr. Murphy on council tax and whilst I totally disagree with his stance on the issue and consider his viewpoint to be totally flawed, I would never dream of describing him in the terms used by the blogger despite feeling extremely strongly and angry at his and Labour's policies on this issue.
I think the term used is totally meaningless not to mention disgusting and shows the user lacks the ability to put together a cohesive case to take part in a reasonable debate. This is the type of thing you expect from an immature teenager lacking the vocabulary to argue his case.
I watched Mr. Murphy's performance after the by-election and it was very impressive - he was cool, calm and collected and made no objectionable utterances whatsoever so far as I could see.
The only point I could make in the blogger's defence is, that apart from the recent furore over the Sun's behaviour over Gordon Brown's apology letter, the media have totally ignored the almost vicious and in many cases completey unjust daily attacks on the PM's personality by the Daily Mail and the even worse Daily Express.
The blogger is merely echoing their behaviour at a slightly more disgusting level. It is time that both media and bloggers concentrated on the issues and left the personal insults out of it. In my opinion, these constant personal attacks must have a detrimental affect on their reader's opinions on the PM and politicians in general. If you don't agree then check the writings on the BBC's Have Your Say on almost any issue the PM may have had any involvement in.
Many of the things written are defamatory and it is only a matter of time before a decision is made to sue, not the submitter), but the people allowing the services they provide to be used for these purposes.
If the laws for doing so do not currently exist then you can look forward to them being introduced in the future.
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369. cynicalHighlander
"Nearly half of voters back Scottish public broadcaster
"
I'm hardly surprised.
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366. oldnat
"a golden rule for historians when studying limited data is to ask “Is it likely?”"
Unfortunately, they also frequently make incorrect judgments asking that question. I consider it one of the most dangerous practices because all too often historians only THINK they know what is likely.
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368. Thomas_Porter
"Did I say the British would not stoop to such a low level? No I did not either."
I believe that you did.
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368. Thomas_Porter
"Either way, for an American I don't believe you can claim to be under attack. It's a slight over reaction considering the long list of American activities that actually include attacks on people and countries. "
Ever heard of...
No, I won't go there. Britain, with plenty of Scots aiding, have been guilty of enough. Do NOT go over all self-righteous with me. You have NO room for it. If you don't know your history of it, I suggest some study.
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377. Sheneval
"I think the term used is totally meaningless not to mention disgusting and shows the user lacks the ability to put together a cohesive case to take part in a reasonable debate. This is the type of thing you expect from an immature teenager lacking the vocabulary to argue his case.
"
So when Mr. Mendalson used the same term about a certain newspaper, this was... what? You're only allowed to do this if you are IN government?
And if you thought his pushing his way through the MPs to get to the front of the MPs was impressive at the Queen's Speech was impressive, obviously others did not.
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374. At 6:55pm on 22 Nov 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
Try reading the context of what I said before blowing up JR. I said the press would use examples such as wardog to use against the independence movement.
They do not have a hope of stopping people blogging. But when bloggers resort to offensive language (I do swear myself by the way and I do know the context it is used in) on a public blog, then expect such a reaction.
The law also accommodates those who feel they are being abused in public via the Internet. While I do not expect Murphy to do anything, the option is always there.
Finally, wardog could be in trouble with his employer. If he has been using his blog from work, and they have an acceptable use policy, then he could be subject to disciplinary action, especially since they don't particularly want bad publicity.
Free speech is important. But how would you like it if someone continually referred to you in such a manner?
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352. Phil_Anthropponent
"Spying, infiltration, intimidation, MI5 plants, News papers calling my home/work (that would be a laugh). As bendy wendy says BRING IT OAN! For every "wardog", every Willie McRae, every dissapaerance/discrepencie 10 will take their place. "
Cheers. Good for you, Phil. Obviously, this intimidation WILL take place as we see in a certain news story. Blogger uses bad word!
Talk about looking ridiculous.
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#370 handclapping
"I think you ask for an impossibility."
I rather agree re NI, although the new unionist alliance might end up with at least one minister in a Cameron government, even one with an overall majority.
For the island of GB, all I'm actually asking for is a simpler version of Electoral Calculus' User-defined Regional Poll, whereby vote shares for only three "rows" are entered instead of having to split the "England" vote into 9 separate components, and preferably three extra rows of output showing the "national" seat counts by party.
I do realise that would decrease its accuracy at one level but that would be compensated by the more frequent use one could make of it, since virtually all of the GB polls allow getting at the "England" figures quite easily. As the GE approaches, I hope we'll also have more Welsh and Scottish polls to make those predictions more realistic but who we're next ruled by is still most likely to be determined by English voters, and the predicted seat counts by party in England could make a real difference in the Who can protect us best from a Tory UK government? debate in both Scotland and Wales.
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383. Neil_Small147
"Free speech is important. But how would you like it if someone continually referred to you in such a manner?"
Who says they haven't? Such terms are REGULARLY applied to women, especially opinionated ones.
You think I go around suing people who call me a bad name? *rolls eyes*
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355. Neil_Small147
"Well, I've checked both garden sheds, the loft, the cold water tank and under the floor. I taped some cotton thread along doors in case someone sneaked in and changed my wireless password to stop them hacking in. I've also hacked into my neighbour's wireless connection so they might think it is him instead. Checked under the car with a mirror and will take alternative routes to work this week, if necessary travelling via Brussels, stopping only to seduce the drop dead gorgeous blonde bombshell from MI5 who will of course turn against her bosses.
Problem is, I don't like Martini......."
I'm so glad that it could never happen and we were all being paranoid. We are also delusional and imagining that SoS story, right?
Right?
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379. JRMacClure
"all too often historians only THINK they know what is likely."
Of course. It's not a science. But it is equally biased to accept inadequate data at face value.
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366. oldnat
"It simply seems unlikely that the shift from Con to Lab should be greater in England than in GB as a whole."
I'm not sure that's true, Oldnat, because the support TO Con FROM Lab had previously been higher than in GB as a whole. There wouldn't be a similar shift in Scotland, for example, because Con had never gained large levels of support there. So IF there was indeed a shift, it might well be larger in England and Scottish results could depress the other results.
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Why the SNP is failing Scotland.
"Look at us. We’re the government in a toy parliament in a toy province. And what’s our aim? Our aim is a referendum. Campaign for a referendum! Aye right! That’s why I didn’t go to Glasgow North East to address an envelope. We could have won there but not on the campaign we fought."
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383. Neil_Small147
"Try reading the context of what I said before blowing up JR."
Since when is disagreeing with you "blowing up", pray tell?
I think I have every right to do that without a pejorative term applied to my comment. Or do you want to be sued? =)
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388. oldnat
"Of course. It's not a science. But it is equally biased to accept inadequate data at face value.
"
No, one can't just "accept" data, inadequate or not. I didn't say one should but one's belief about what is or is not plausible may also be biased. :-)
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#388 oldnat
No, no; if I modify the Aug 28 YouGov to give the 34% the IPSOS Mori gives the SNP, then HEC, which is pure science, gives 5:11:8:35, so I think that the SNP ought to be buying an advance ticket Prestwick - New York.
Bias, moi?
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#393
Prestwick, as you can't get to Abbotsinsch by train.
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390. cynicalHighlander
"Why the SNP is failing Scotland.
"Look at us. We’re the government in a toy parliament in a toy province. And what’s our aim? Our aim is a referendum. Campaign for a referendum! Aye right! That’s why I didn’t go to Glasgow North East to address an envelope. We could have won there but not on the campaign we fought."
"
He might have a point, or might not, but he has become a bitter man who does little more than rant about how dare people admire his act in helping to steal the Stone of Destiny. I find it sad in someone whose YOUNGER self I still admire.
I rather think the SNP might have been glad he didn't show up since kicking in the crotch anyone who wanted to shake his hand is now his idea of how to deal with admirers.
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#377 Sheneval
"So it's ok to miscall the Scottish Secretary or anyone else for that matter using whatever term/s you choose?"
Technically he didn't miscall the office of the Scottish Secretary he miscalled Jim Murphy the incumbent. However I, to the chagrin of many no doubt, agree that the use of the word was out of order. But that's just me. I tend to look upon swearing as the nuclear bomb of the language. Consequently I use it extremely sparingly. Best only used in dire circumstances unlike G Ramsey for example.
Making no excuse for WD as I don't know what he was thinking at the time, I think this explosion was caused by the fact he has become extremely frustrated, producing as he does some great stats and insights into the perfidious behaviour of the press, TV and labour party and the almost total collusion between them. Hence the lash out at what he saw was more unacceptable behavior by Murphy - pushing through to the front of the pack.
In terms of who outed him, I'd look nearer to the University than to MI5. People would have know about his activities, whether he knew they did, is another matter.
No-one has mentioned it, that I've noticed, as I suspect people may be afraid to make things worse, but is there any mileage in sending emails of support to the UNI - "quality of mercy" etc?
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377. Sheneval
So someone used bad words about a politician. Boohoo!
The word in question is not meaningless, and if you find words disgusting I feel genuinely sorry for you.
Saying that using it indicates a lack of vocabulary is trite, to coin a rhyme ;)
The blogger is a private individual, the readers of his blog go (went) there by choice.
Why did three political editors from Scottish newspapers get involved?
I take it you think it is ok for private citizens to be intimidated off the web, because they use language you object to?
(let's forget for a moment the other things it could actually be about)
Is it the job of the print media establishment to morally police private individuals?
BTW - thanks for sharing about how awesome the cool, calm and collected Jim Murphy is! It's totally transformed my opinion of him.
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383. Neil_Small147
"Finally, wardog could be in trouble with his employer. If he has been using his blog from work, and they have an acceptable use policy, then he could be subject to disciplinary action, especially since they don't particularly want bad publicity."
Yes, this has been pointed out a number of times on this blog, so your point is?
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"Just say no" to being dragged down any further by this disaster of a union that nobody voted for.
Just say yes to taking control of our own destiny, and being able to control this countries natural resources and economy for the benefit of our own country, rather than to the benefit of the fat cats at Westminster.
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Brian, I have not seen any coverage of the flooding in Scotland on news 24 or on any national news reports. It's as if Scotland doesn't exist as far as the bbc is concerned.
And what has happened to coverage of First Ministers Questions on freeview. Either not important as far as the bbc is concerned, or just too imposrtant, so much so that we are now subject to a news blackout.
Time to sort out the balance of power, don't you think.
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390. cynicalHighlander
"Why the SNP is failing Scotland.
"Look at us. We’re the government in a toy parliament in a toy province. And what’s our aim? Our aim is a referendum. Campaign for a referendum! Aye right! That’s why I didn’t go to Glasgow North East to address an envelope. We could have won there but not on the campaign we fought.""
A good post, and I can't say I disagree.
Independence, independence, independence!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
396. Robabody
"Technically he didn't miscall the office of the Scottish Secretary he miscalled Jim Murphy the incumbent. However I, to the chagrin of many no doubt, agree that the use of the word was out of order. But that's just me. I tend to look upon swearing as the nuclear bomb of the language. Consequently I use it extremely sparingly. Best only used in dire circumstances unlike G Ramsey for example.
Making no excuse for WD as I don't know what he was thinking at the time, I think this explosion was caused by the fact he has become extremely frustrated, producing as he does some great stats and insights into the perfidious behaviour of the press, TV and labour party and the almost total collusion between them. Hence the lash out at what he saw was more unacceptable behavior by Murphy - pushing through to the front of the pack.
In terms of who outed him, I'd look nearer to the University than to MI5. People would have know about his activities, whether he knew they did, is another matter.
No-one has mentioned it, that I've noticed, as I suspect people may be afraid to make things worse, but is there any mileage in sending emails of support to the UNI - "quality of mercy" etc?
"
The force brought to bear in the case is so over the top and so coordinated, I have problems seeing an innocent explanation such as that someone just didn't like what he was doing and called a couple of papers. I find it EXTRAORDINARY that three newspaper editors would get involved over someone using a bad word to refer to a politician.
*cough* It happens every day, including on blogs all over the world.
I may have privately used the term about some of our politicians in the US. While not wise to use them publicly, what was truly unwise of Wardog, as I pointed out some posts ago, was making himself vulnerable to attack by apparently posting from work. He assumed he was too unimportant for them to bother with. He was wrong.
MI5? A political apparatchik? A Labour member with good connections? Any of those are possible. Who knows. I suspect it was the FOI or possibly the "outing" of the truth about the GNE election that caused the furor. I don't believe for a SECOND it was the obscenity.
But it is an IMPORTANT LESSON for bloggers. Do not allow yourself to be vulnerable to intimidation.
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" 382. At 7:14pm on 22 Nov 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
So when Mr. Mendalson used the same term about a certain newspaper, this was... what? You're only allowed to do this if you are IN government?"
If Mandelson used that expression about the Sun he was also wrong and disgustng.
"And if you thought his pushing his way through the MPs to get to the front of the MPs was impressive at the Queen's Speech was impressive, obviously others did not."
You shuld read what I said and not make up your own version.
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seems like a starred out word offends, the word that has been a feature of this blog made it into the BBC Comedy the "thick of it" last night see it on the BBC Iplayer
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404. Sheneval
"You shuld read what I said and not make up your own version."
I read what you said, and responded.
Care to answer my questions.
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397. At 7:53pm on 22 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote:
"So someone used bad words about a politician. Boohoo!"
Boohoo! ?? - Well that's a really intelligent comment :-)
"The word in question is not meaningless, and if you find words disgusting I feel genuinely sorry for you."
No you don't and the word is meaningless in the context that it is used except perhaps to those pathetic people who use it as part of their normal speech in everday life.
"Saying that using it indicates a lack of vocabulary is trite, to coin a rhyme ;)"
But true!!
"The blogger is a private individual, the readers of his blog go (went) there by choice."
My previous comment regarding miscalling anyone you wish still stands - you can write a book and people choose to buy it, but it is still covered by the laws of libel.
"Why did three political editors from Scottish newspapers get involved?"
No idea - perhaps they too object to foul mouth personal attacks on politicians - why don't you ask them?
"I take it you think it is ok for private citizens to be intimidated off the web, because they use language you object to?
(let's forget for a moment the other things it could actually be about)"
As far as I am concerned the web is part of the public domain and if anyone abuses a blog like this they should be barred. I would not expect them to be 'scared off.'
"Is it the job of the print media establishment to morally police private individuals?"
Probably not but the people being abused will have their supporters in the media and elsewhere and they are entitled to take whatever legal action the like, particulalrly as our politicians seem unable or unwilling to defend themslves against the hate mail - see many BBC''s 'Have Your Say' postings for evidence.
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#407 - ""Saying that using it indicates a lack of vocabulary is trite, to coin a rhyme ;)"
But true!!"
Mmm, I don't think I'm being pedantic to point out it can't possibly be both. It's either trite (in the rhyming sense) or it's true, it can't be both. To claim it can be both does not, perhaps, demonstrate a limited vocabulary but it does demonstrate a limited comprehension of the vocabulary in use.
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#407 - "My previous comment regarding miscalling anyone you wish still stands - you can write a book and people choose to buy it, but it is still covered by the laws of libel."
Oops, pushed to the post button a bit early. As to regards your point about libel, it would perhaps be more accurately described as defamation, a crime which does not carry the defence that the claim is accurate or truthful.
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"406. At 8:34pm on 22 Nov 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote
I read what you said, and responded. Care to answer my questions."
"And if you thought his pushing his way through the MPs to get to the front of the MPs was impressive at the Queen's Speech was impressive, obviously others did not."
I presume you are referring to the above - I answered the part of your question re. Mandelson.
Since I did not see Mr. Murphy acting as you describe it is not possible for me to comment about how I found his behaviour on that occasion.
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Look, let's get things into perspective here.
Wendy's press secretary used that word against Alex Salmond and no doubt the regular bloggers on here went ape.
But some feel it's ok to use it against Murphy because he is unionist and not appearing to be very effective in his role etc etc
However, use that term in public and you can be arrested for breach of the peace and probably offensive behaviour. The same applies to the Internet. But using it publicly also carries the danger of being sued. And it will be the individual who is sued, not the service provider unless they do not have their T&Cs correct. The blogger may be private, but his forum is not.
OK, I'm still a bit bemused as to how it got to the attention of the newspapers, but the fact is it is there.
There is no defence for the way he has used the word, rather than he's used it.
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#407 - ""Saying that using it indicates a lack of vocabulary is trite, to coin a rhyme ;)"
But true!!"
"Mmm, I don't think I'm being pedantic to point out it can't possibly be both. It's either trite (in the rhyming sense) or it's true, it can't be both. To claim it can be both does not, perhaps, demonstrate a limited vocabulary but it does demonstrate a limited comprehension of the vocabulary in use."
I took it that he meant cliched or unoriginal but perhaps you know best.
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409. At 8:58pm on 22 Nov 2009, ForteanJo wrote:
"As to regards your point about libel, it would perhaps be more accurately described as defamation, a crime which does not carry the defence that the claim is accurate or truthful."
Not sure that either is a crime in the strict sense of the word as they would be covered by civil law rather than criminal law but again perhaps you know best.
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Online Ed Here
411. At 9:02pm on 22 Nov 2009, Neil_Small147 wrote:
But some feel it's ok to use it against Murphy because he is unionist
Bt even stooping to this level you reveal yourself as a bit of a 'Murph'.
Stooping to the level of such misrepresentation is henceforth known as to 'Murph Dive'.
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411. Neil_Small147
"Look, let's get things into perspective here."
Its a derogetory and offensive term. There is a vast difference in a private individual using it in an informal category but a proffesional using it on paid business it is not.
Just google that word and a well retail outlet is selling a "**** Colouring book".
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Online Ed Here
Re-reading the SOS article on the blogger pursued by the media over calling Jim Murphy a name and asking uncomfortable questions on Willie Bain I npticed this:
Murphy attacked a "cybernat" internet campaign that saw disparaging comments about Glasgow North East voters flying through cyberspace
Does anyone have any info on this 'campaign' and/or what statements Murphy made regarding the same?
I suspect that there never was such a campaign and our Mr Murphy has simply fabricated it.
Can anyone confirm one way or another?
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Surprise, surprise, another topical Hootsmon Headlines.
Those of a sensitive nature should note that the C word appears.
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417. Brownedov
"Surprise, surprise, another topical Hootsmon Headlines.
Those of a sensitive nature should note that the C word appears.
"
Oh Conan should win an award for that one. That was good--very good. But sensitive souls who can't stand the sight of an obscenity should definitely stay away.
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I am genuinely amazed at Neil Small's naivety. "Diomhair' gives a pretty compelling picture of some of the lies and dirty tricks employed by agents of the UK Government against the independence movement but you can be assured that even that is only scraping the surface and they would not be allowed to transmit more damning evidence. I know personally and with certainty that I have dealt with at least three "plants" in my many years of politics and I would be very surprised indeed if continuous effort does not go on all the time to infiltrate SNP right up to the very top.
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