Trusting the trust
We know the key personnel. Sir Angus Grossart has been reappointed as chairman of the Scottish Futures Trust.
The existing four non-exec directors also stay in post.
However, opposition parties remain resolutely sceptical about the role to be enacted by the SFT.
Labour's Johann Lamont is strong on scepticism. When she is challenging the SNP, her face, her voice, her entire demeanour suggest that she regards her rivals as intrinsically untrustworthy.
In response, the deputy first minister, Nicola Sturgeon can be equally direct. Her tactic is to retaliate early and often, pre-empting attacks where possible.
The two faced each other at Holyrood today, deputising for Alex Salmond and Iain Gray who were both attending the funeral of Bill Speirs.
The topic? School building and the role of the SFT. As expected, the exchanges were robust and the debate sharp.
Few schools
Indeed, in BBC Scotland's live coverage, Alan Cochrane of the Telegraph was moved to comment that the substitutes had, collectively, performed better than the regulars.
Ms Lamont attacked, accusing SNP ministers of sanctioning relatively few new schools.
Ms Sturgeon countered, arguing that the SNP administration had been lumbered with umpteen schools in dreadful condition and was making substantial progress.
At one point, Alex Fergusson in the chair once more showed his renewed determination to keep FMQs participants in check.
He gently reminded Ms Sturgeon that she had not answered one direct point from Ms Lamont - on the subject of the futures trust.
And so back to that. Ms Sturgeon said the trust was closely involved in schools and other projects, ensuring best practice and value.
It would seem, however, the role has altered somewhat from the original ambitions which talked of the trust as, ultimately, a funding source via bonds and other devices.
On track
To be fair, the business plan for the SFT also envisaged an agency role, co-ordinating efforts across the public sector to drive down costs and find innovative methods of financing projects.
Its second envisaged role was to take part in governance arrangements: basically, keeping projects on track.
Role three was more direct participation in funding, potentially as an asset owner or finance conduit.
At this stage, it would seem that the emphasis is presently more on roles one and two, less on role three.
In short, though, as the business plan noted, "the SFT's success will be measured against the value for money benefits it achieves."
Quite.
PS: May I record, once more, my sympathy and respect to the family of Bill Speirs?
I knew him and covered him in sundry roles: STUC leader, poverty campaigner, Home Rule activist especially via the Convention and Scotland United.
At all points, his contribution was substantial and serious, delivered with a useful leavening of mischievous humour. He will be much missed.
I'm 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~26~RS~)
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Alex Salmond visited Qatar to try and get funds for the Scottish Futures Trust which is to replace the disastrous PFI funding scheme in Scotland.
In 2008 Qatar produced 1378 thousand barrels of oil daily.
In 2008 the UK (Scotland) produced 1544 thousand barrels of oil daily.
Source for the figures is a BP page with a PDF link on the right named, "Oil production table - barrels per day (pdf, 60KB)".
One oil producer has to go to another equivalent oil producer, Qatar actually produces a little less oil than Scotland, to beg for funding to pay for basic infrastructure projects and just over the North Sea Norway has an oil fund of $410 billion which is the third biggest in the world.
Independence can't come soon enough for Scotland.
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Didn't stay at the Brighton bunfight to listen to the Harperson's summing up then, Brian?
Sadly, the BBC's IP apartheid policy coupled with changes to this website now prevent us expats from watching FMQs [and PMQs, too] on the BBC, but hopefully I'll be able to catch up with them later on holyrood.tv. Sounds like an interesting time was had by all.
Have any of the NuLab lot produced the real PFI/PPP figures yet? I suspect not from your comments about sanctioning relatively few new schools. It would surely be a good idea to know how much the last lot are going to cost before committing to the next phase.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Sturgeon struggled badly today.
She totally failed to deal with Labours' questions about the Futures Trust, she failed to deal with Goldies' points. SNP need Salmond, the deputy isn't up to the job.
When asked "When will school children get their two extra hours of P.E" Sturgeon didn't even deal with this directly. Instead she spun some tripe off about 'tory cuts'- thats original Sturgeon!
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Was presently surpised to see the Presiding Officer step in to remind Nicola Sturgeon what the question was about. This was not Nicola Sturgeon's finest hour and Johann Lamont was more than a match for her.
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Brian Taylor wrote of Johann Lamont "When she is challenging the SNP, her face, her voice, her entire demeanour suggest that she regards her rivals as intrinsically untrustworthy."
Indeed, but that description could apply to any of the incandescent fizog's of the Red Rose Party's angry regiment of wimmin.
When Iain Gray is talking at FMQ the contorted coupons of Margaret Curran, Pauline MacNeil, and Cathy Jamieson to name but three, make poor Johann look as serene as the Mona Lisa.
Then again I suppose it could be argued I'm a bit Glencambly when it comes to Labour.
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The very decent Bill Speirs was an honest man in a position in which competing political objectives made honesty a difficult thing.
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I heard one significant comment from Labour on the PFI financed projects when Rhona Brankin (she who aways seems to have a permanent look of surprise, or is it disgust, on her face) made the remark that schools have to be maintained over the period of the PFI contracts. She was thus attempting to diminish the apparent disadvantages of PFI. I have no idea about the validity of this comment. Is it a fair assessment in terms of the money these companies are making, or is it just more dismissive bluster from Ms Brankin?. Has anyone done the sums? I suspect that if it was a fair comment we would have heard it over and over again from Labour.
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SFT is a bit of an albatross now. Seems a bit like pre the last Holyrood elections when labour couldn't come close to addressing the failings of their plans for council tax. Joe Fitzpatrick was at a loss on Jocknight this week as he clearly knew little about SFT and its future role. I suspect SFT will enter popular lore in the same way that PPP, PFI etc have done. That is of course unless anyone in the SNP can actually justify the future role that SFT will play. I doubt it somehow, since even until recently, the FM thought the oil sheikhs in the middle east would somehow come to his aid.
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2. Why don't you invest in a satellite dish and a cheapo generic satellite decoder box? Point it at the Astra 2 satellite cluster at 28º E and you'll get loads of UK free to air channels. It's perfectly legal and outside the UK there's no licence fee! (It's 'satellite overspill' apparently.) Where you are you can probably pick up all the free to air digital tv channels on an 80cm dish. Then you too can join in the fun of complaining about the BBC's output with the added satisfaction of not having to pay for it.
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#8 "...oil sheikhs in the middle east..."
That is too funny! You do realize how absurd that comment is in comparison to Scotland, one supposes. Why not just throw yourself under the train? Whew!
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#8 corporationtax
"I suspect SFT will enter popular lore in the same way that PPP, PFI etc have done."
Given the Tory reluctance at Westmidden to lead the charge in uncovering the real costs of PPP/PFI I suspect you may be right, in that the next Westmidden government will be no more open about it or more willing to explore alternatives than Duff Gordon's lot.
All in all, an excellent argument for full fiscal autonomy.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Speaking of the necessity of going to middle eastern shaikhs for money, I STILL don't see any coverage of this in your fair land. Perhaps I've missed an article...somewhere.
http://www.pr-inside.com/glenlivet-discovery-successful-side-r1504362.htm
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3 Dean.
I have to whole heartedly agree with you there. One of the weak links.
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#9 InfrequentAllele
"Why don't you invest in a satellite dish and a cheapo generic satellite decoder box? Point it at the Astra 2 satellite cluster at 28º E and you'll get loads of UK free to air channels."
We adopted that solution many years ago for our Andalusian holiday home, where I anticipate being for the general election.
In Switzerland, the situation is more complex as communes have the authority to refuse or deny permission for dishes and if you live in a flat the building association rules also vary. In practice, cable is often the simplest solution, even in rural areas (my flat is above 1200m and very rural) but not well equipped with anglophone channels.
Until less than a year ago, that barely mattered, with much BBC political coverage being streamed. That is no longer so.
"Then you too can join in the fun of complaining about the BBC's output with the added satisfaction of not having to pay for it."
Sadly not so, as we have a UK property on which we do pay the TV tax.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Johann Lamont is a better bet than Ian Gray, but she has got that "waiting to be offended" look as have so many on the Labour benches. No policies of their own but hating everything the SNP suggests because it's the SNP. Are they really still advocating PPP/PFI? Nicola Sturgeon has a twinkle in her eye even when she's being a nippy wee besom:)) She's a feisty debater - always on top of her brief and would be a formidable opponent for any of the current party leaders at Westminster never mind what we have at Holyrood.
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@ 2
Given you pay the licence fee... It isn't too difficult to find the means to view iPlayer outwith the UK.
Do you think this could possibly pass moderation?
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Brian,
Having now watched FMQs, courtesy of holyrood.tv, I can now see what you mean with your: "Indeed, in BBC Scotland's live coverage, Alan Cochrane of the Telegraph was moved to comment that the substitutes had, collectively, performed better than the regulars."
It's no shock that the Torygraph's Cochrane dislikes Sturgeon marginally less than he dislikes the FM, but he's correct that Lamont was marginally less awful as an inquisitor than the hapless Mr Gray. The end result was certainly much the same as usual, with Ms Sturgeon in good form, NuLab saying nothing new and Aunty Bella not back to her best.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#3 and #13
A Tory agreeing with a Tory...who'd have thunk it... I look forward to the next Holyrood elections when the SNP will no doubt take around 37% of the vote or more, while the Tories continue their run of popularity on around 17% (and that's me being generous).
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8 CORPORATIONTAX: Joe Fitzpatrick is hopeless and does the SNP no favours when they put him up on t.v.
Best keep him in the shadows, I fear.
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3 DEANTHETORY: Have to disagree - Nicola never struggles.
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I thought Nicola was being too kind to Lamont. She could have tore shreds out of her about PPP / PFI
Had to switch off when Nichol Stevens came on as I was expecting a phone call and couldn't risk falling asleep.
BTW did you hear the tub thumping, squeals and shouts coming from the labour back benches?
The man who throws bananas to them to keep them quiet must have been away.
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YouGov's daily poll shows NuLab back in the mire again with figures of CON 40%(+3), LAB 26%(-4), L-D 20%(-1), with effectively no bounce whatsoever from their bunfight. What a pity we have no new Scottish figures to go on, as I find it hard to believe the Scottish Sun's announcement will have no effect on polling at all but would not presume to predict it may be.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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@21
Bating mobs seem to be the order of the day for NuLabour insurgents. Perhaps they are missing their daily "news in briefs" now that they have to tear up any copies of The Sun that comes their way.
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Grassy Knollington : "Glencambly" - I think this spelling best fits the bill and is the spelling I will use in the future.
Brian - I find Mr Cochrane too glencambly for words usually however on this occasion his reporting was accurate. I think this is because Mr Gray was not involved in any way. Gray is a terrible public speaker and can't think, never mind think on his feet.
Finally has labour's baroness Scotland been forgotten ? How very glencambly.
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I had a quiet, ironic smile last night when Brewer interviewed Gray. The greyman said that Scots would have a choice of Broon or Cameron as PM.
'Not that it will matter, as the English will pick Cameron' I thought.
Brewer missed the chance to put the knife in - it would have been fantastic telly. Alas, Brewer blew it. No matter.
Next week the tories will have a good conference. Hague and Cameron will shine. Tory conferences are always well regimented. That will ensure excellent coverage in England.
Of course, it'll go down like a lead balloon in Scotland.
The result is that Broon will be on the back foot again.
And the following week .....
Salmond will remind us of Murphy's Conundrum.
New Labour or Old Tory.
It is no choice at all. Another 5 years of Thatcher's children.
A choice between Proven Failure and Potential Disaster.
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The curious case of Roseanna Cunningham and Prince Charles
"But, from the cheap seats, the Sturgeon/Lamont floor show was well worth the admission money. They mastered their briefs, knocked spots off each other but largely kept their cool, making First Minister’s Questions a much better event than normal."
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I disagree that Sturgeon struggles, as I believe Salmond and Sturgeon both are different and work well as each covers the others weaknesses. The main issue today was that Sturgeon was left to defend SFT which has little show, at least untill the end of their term, so untill then it will be a struggle to defend SFT untill these schools are taken care of.
However I would stress that I feel Scottish Labour attacks far too strongly. Have they apologised after months of their critical attitude over police numbers?
First Minister's Question Time should be about researching Government policies and finding problems. Is it worthwhile to attack especially as for examples schools are not planned to be finished untill the end of the SNP administration? Will Scottish Labour have egg on their faces? Well, we shall see but if the SNP administration successfully bring about their promised schools then that will show Scottish Labour were wrong, again just like over police numbers!
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"Labour's Johann Lamont is strong on scepticism. When she is challenging the SNP, her face, her voice, her entire demeanour suggest that she regards her rivals as intrinsically untrustworthy."
I wonder whom Ms lamont hates the most, the SNP who have replaced her party and the liberals as the Governmant in Scotland or Bungler Brown and Griman Gray.
The faces of people in labour don't lie.They know they are in for a complete rout in May. What's more they know they desrve it for the way they have let sleaze, spin and lies direct their moral compass.
I must admit to gaining mild amusement when I look at Ms lamont's frowned expression!
Long may it last!
D McN
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The Sturgeon v Lamont floor show is no substitute for the entertainment of the real thing - Salmond thwacks Gray.
A bit like Westminster where the Harman v Hague event is always a switch-off compared to Brown v Cameron.
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It is easy to see why Labour MSP's are so angry with the SNP, I mean since they came to power the schools have fallen apart, hundreds if not thousands of kids have fallen into poverty,Edinburgh's main street has become a bomb site, Scotland have failed to qualify for another major tournament, it rained all through the last month, I mean come on is this what independence is all about?
Really not very bright the average Labour politician it would seem. What exactly have they achieved in over 50 years of power? Halfwits.
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Sorry Brian but on reflection is this not a diversionary tactic by yourself rather than dicuss why the SNP should be excluded from climate change discussions which will impact everyone, yes even nuLab supportetrs who think they are the B's knees. FMQ is a forgone conclusion week after week like the sun rising in the East day after day year on year until the poles flip. As I was constantly told at school for must subjects "Could do better". Marks 2 out of 10 for trying.
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I've been following the glencambelly discussion.
I get back home, see BBC Scotland News for the first time in 5 weeks, and see him making a report with an open razor at his throat!
Wow! You guys have some influence!
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Glen Campbell in the seat but I'm pretty sure it was J.Swinney with the open razor.
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Hands up who didn't chuckle at Ms Sturgeon claim that the SNP were building new schools at a faster rate than the last administration.
It must be SFT under the table dealing.
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#3, if only Goldie actually had a point any more, she has gone way off the boil and should be replaced asap before she does damage to any further tory "recovery" i.e. two seats next June.
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Now that I'm back, I'm using Firefox again. Cand someone give me the link to the blog add-in that a number of you are using?
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Lie Detector Tests.
That's what we should sent to every MLA at Christmas.
Cut the CRAP and have honest Government !!!
No need to send one to Mr(12%)Gray. He's gone learning
next weeks questions,but will fumble and fumble again !!!
Time for a strong OPPISITION !
In Holyrood ??????????????????
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36. oldnat
bbc comment responder
courtesy of mrb.
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36. oldnat
Download it from here. You'll need greasemonkey installed first.
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/56550
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38. cynicalHighlander
Thanks (and to MrB)
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39. Fforged_Yolks
Thanks for the greasemonkey tip.
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#32. At 10:35pm on 01 Oct 2009, oldnat wrote:
I've been following the glencambelly discussion.
I get back home, see BBC Scotland News for the first time in 5 weeks, and see him making a report with an open razor at his throat!
Wow! You guys have some influence!
Explain please. =)
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It was highly amusing on Newsnight Scotland to hear Magnus Linklater's mealy mouthed claim that newspapers do not have any influence on how the electorate vote (ref: the Sun ditching Labour). Considering that he, Angus Macleod, Lorraine Davidson and Jenny Hjul are all employed by the Times, Scotland edition, to spin against the SNP at every opportunity.
If what he says is true The Times could save some wages by sacking them?
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#35. Aw, lighten up on the poor Scottish Tories, Patty. I hear they might even get three. ;-)
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42. JRMacClure
Campbell was presenting an item on the deep public expenditure cuts that are likely over the next few years. To illustrate that he filmed it in a barber's shop where hair was being cut, and he was getting a shave in the barber's chair.
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43. hamish42
Like him or not, Andrew Neil knows the newspaper business. I think he's right when he says "The Sun's political influence doesn't come from its partisan coverage of the election campaign or its final editorial endorsing its favourite. It comes from its day in, day out, week in, week out championing of the leader and party it wants to win, and constant rubbishing of those it wants to lose."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/dailypolitics/andrewneil/2009/09/seven_months_for_the_sun_to_bo.html
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What a barrel-scrapingly cheap jibe from Johann Lamont regarding the SNP "attacking Glasgow". We should take bets on the next time they'll spew out that 'election-winning' line again.
Although, I suppose it's simply more evidence of how the Scottish Labour Party looks at the Glaswegian electorate.
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#45 Ahhh. I see. Thanks. I'm not quite sure how that illustrates deep cuts in public expenditures but we can hope that the barber has a steady hand. ;-)
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13. At 4:55pm on 01 Oct 2009, Phil_Anthropponent
18. At 5:34pm on 01 Oct 2009, GregorAddison
20. At 5:35pm on 01 Oct 2009, Florence0131
35. At 11:14pm on 01 Oct 2009, pattymkirkwood
What a thread I kick started! But there is a salient point to be made here- did Sturgeon bat off the Labour questions with as much skill as Salmond?
I honestly must say no, the SNP require their leader to unite [and outsmart] their oponents.
Phil, you say "I have to whole heartedly agree with you there. One of the weak links", that is very true. The SNP is starting to have a good many 'weak links', Megrahi; no matter the rights and wrongs of the decision; did damage MacAskil [but he remains], Hyslop survives- despite the catalogue of broken education promises [though there is still two years to go], and Sturgeon isn't a replacement for Salmond in the longterm. Swinney can't take over [been there, ended badly]....
...just who is the heir apparent? It seems to me there isn't one. I for one would be terrified by that reality if I where SNP. Why aren't they?
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47. At 02:03am on 02 Oct 2009, foisnorth
"What a barrel-scrapingly cheap jibe from Johann Lamont regarding the SNP "attacking Glasgow"."
Your right, it was pathetic frankly, but this is just it- Sturgeon should have done much better- Salmond seems to have totally overshadowed her.
This isn't good, because if I had to choose between SNP and Labour in Glasgow North-East by-election I'd pick SNP. Sadly however I fear Labour holding it along Glenrothes lines. But even if the SNP half the Lab majority- its still damn good work.
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49. deanthetory
Seems reasonable for every party to have their best communicator as party leader.
Yours is no longer as effective as she once was. Aren't you scared that the only other of your front-benchers that I can remember the name of is Bill Aitken. :-)
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#49. The lack of an heir apparent is pretty common in political parties and hardly something that people are likely to panic over, especially since there's no sign that Salmond will be leaving any time soon. One is nice--but I have yet to see a party get in a sweat over its lack UNLESS the leader is very weak or ailing.
That's a pretty weak attack there, Bud. :-)
I don't know about the other SNP though. I really need to see if can get BBC coverage if I switch to satellite. But then I'd probably waste even more time here when I should be working.
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52. At 02:37am on 02 Oct 2009, JRMacClure
"That's a pretty weak attack there, Bud. :-)"
It wasn't meant to be an attack, more an observation which would worry me had I been SNP.
51. At 02:21am on 02 Oct 2009, oldnat
"Yours is no longer as effective as she once was. Aren't you scared that the only other of your front-benchers that I can remember the name of is Bill Aitken. :-)"
Er, you raise a couple of points.
Bill Aitken wouldnt be a bad leader, though not the first choice- the successor for Goldie will be Murdo Fraser. He's the young turk [can we still call him that anymore?].
But we do, your right, have an issue over leadership- frankly Goldie is a competent, interim, moderately above average [largely harmless and safe pair of hands] leader. If we had a clear alternative I worry about her position.
But she has done brilliant work de-toxifying the image, and more importantly appealing to the traditional tory vote in Scotland (about 25%, shes won 20% back home).
But your second point- the one which I reject; she isn't ineffective.
She adopted a moderate projection over the last two years, thereby de-toxified the image. She now is moving to win that core vote (lost over 1992-1997) back home. And she is succeeding- 22% according to a Scottish sub-sample (I know about the caveats!!), but the Sept polling in the Scot-only polls we got 20%. She is successfully wooing the core vote back.
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53. deanthetory
I see your problem as being that the "core vote" doesn't represent your views at all! You talk about "wooing them back". Where have they been in the meantime?
Voting SNP? - Some will vote for a centre-right party after independence/real fiscal autonomy in a new Scottish political structure, but Calman won't get them back.
Voting New Labour? - In places like Eastwood, you'll get a lot of ex-NuLab voters back but, by definition, they're not your core vote.
Voting Lib-Dem? - Again they're not your core vote, they will be much more your type of Tory.
Voting UKIP/BNP? - You sure you want them back?
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From the Scottish Sun -
Here are David Cameron's key pledges to Scottish Sun readers.
1. We will reassess 2.6million people on Incapacity Benefit to see if they are fit for work. Every out-of-work benefit claimant capable of doing so will be expected to work. [ No change there}
2. We will replace the Human Rights Act with a new British Bill of Rights to strengthen Britain's traditional liberties. [The Human Rights Act doesn't apply to Scotlsnd, where much more substantial legislation is enshrined in the Scotland Act]
3. We will cut the number of MPs by 10 per cent, and reduce the number, size, scope and influence of quangos. [The SNP/Greens/SSP will cut the number of MPs by 59. Which Scottish quangos are subject to Westminster?]
4. We will honour the Military Covenant we have with our brave troops and make sure they are properly equipped to do their jobs. [But we'll keep them fighting in interventionist wars, according to American diktat]
5. We will cut Corporation Tax to create jobs, reform inheritance tax to encourage saving and build a stronger society by rewarding families in the tax and benefit system. [reforming IHT doesn't encourage saving, it simply keeps the children of the "haves" as continuing "haves" - even if they are economically unproductive. Even Bush's USA had a higher rate of IHT than Cameron wants.]
6. We will get to grips with national debt and public spending to keep interest rates lower for longer and boost investment - this is vital for the recovery. [But which aspects of public spending will be cut? That is the critical question.]
7. Our NHS is special so we will protect its budget. [He has no control over the Scottish NHS Budget.]
8. If the Lisbon Treaty is not yet in force at the time of the next general election we will suspend ratification, hold a referendum and campaign for a 'No' vote. [Safe to say, it will be implemented]
Cameron - irrelevant on most issues for Scotland. Obscure or hostile to our interests on the others.
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Aren't 5 and 6 kind of contradictory?
Or maybe not. Perhaps it's: We'll cut taxes for corporations and rich folks and "get to grips" with the national debt by raising them on everyone else?
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56. JRMacClure
We've got "Republicans" too!
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#57. Aaah! Now I understand. Please tell me their not religious nutcases like ours are. Then you'll really have my sympathy.
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I'm still looking for SOME mention of this in the news coverage. It looks to me like it should be worth a mention somewhere. Seems odd.
http://www.pr-inside.com/glenlivet-discovery-successful-side-r1504362.htm
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I've just watched the debate between Nicola Sturgeon and Johann Lamont. I must have been watching a different debate from you, Brian. I thought that Nicola achieved exactly what she set out to do which was to tell the Parliament that there is approximately £3 billion pounds in the system for school building projects and that under the SNP administration there have been over 100,000 children lifted out of poorly repaired schools, which had been left to fester under the last Lab/Lib/Dem administration. I can only conclude, Brian that your blog, this time, is glencampbelled against the SNP.
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#61. You mean Mr. Taylor would stoop to glenbampbellizing his blog? I am shocked! *hand to brow*
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#60... gedguy2
So far the SNP has managed to commission 14 new schools, but hang on a minute, that word commission means they haven't been built yet! Oh, and whilst I'm at it, they won't be complete until 2013... after the next election... so exactly how many new schools will the SNP deliver in this parliament's lifetime? The answer is a BIG FAT ZERO. The money for the commissioned schools isn't even coming from the SFT - it has now strangely changed into an 'advisory board'.
SMASH... there goes another promise from the Nats
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59. At 06:24am on 02 Oct 2009, JRMacClure
If the find is significant the maybe westminster will annexe the field into English territorial waters.
I notice that our so called Scottish media never cover the illegal annexation of 6000 square miles of Scottish territorial waters to England against the will and wishes of the Scottish people.
At the recent talks about the sovereignty of the Rockall basin the Scottish government was denied the chance to attent. Also denied attendance was the Western Isles council under who's jurisdiction Rockall falls.
If the people of Scotland vote for freedom the look out for wasteminster handing over Rockall to the Irish republic.
Easily done given their experience of scorched earth policies against Scotland and her people.
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#60 gedguy 2
I read Dean's various posts on Nicola Sturgeon's stand-in performance at FMQ, and thought... wow she must have been really poor. Then I watched Holyrood TV.....
All I can say Dean is take off your blue-tinted spectacles and watch again.
Although Johann Lamont performed much better than the Gray man, that wouldn't actually be difficult. Nicola Sturgeon easily won on points and Auntie Annabel didn't have much better success.
Overall I agree with gedguy2. Nicola Sturgeon performed exceptionally well and came across as a very capable Deputy and potential future leader for when wee Alex retires as the elder statesman and 'father' of a fledgling independent Scotland.
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#1 DougtheDug #59 JR & #204 ('Time is running out' thread) snowthistle
Keep posting these stats! They certainly won't be printed by our North British media.
Oil and gas running out? Too wee and too poor to be independent?
Aye right!
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#48 JRMacClure
For once, there's an article on this website from the man himself that's, er, not very glencambly.
See Getting a seat at the top table, which is actually a pretty fair summary of the story so far on Miliband minor's snub to Scotland over the Copenhagen conference.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Why cant the SNP be honest and answer the question about how much has SFT cost to date?
SNP cant expect to be invited to Copenhagen, when they cant even tell us how much monies they have wasted trying to get their SFT up and running?.
Who will trust the SNP if they were invited to Copenhagen, when they have squandered the tax payers wealth on a scheme (SFT) that was meant to deliver cleaner energy.
Come on! own up nats, how much have use lot wasted on the SFT SCHEME?.
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40. oldnat
My pleasure - hope you find it useful.
Remember if you highlight text on the page first, then click 'Respond!' it will also quote the selected text for you.
I'm a wee bit busy just now, and so I'm just dipping in and out of blogs just now - so thanks to cynicalHighlander, and Fforged_Yolks for pointing you in the right direction.
If you have any problems or suggestions just let me know.
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67. At 09:49am on 02 Oct 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
Why cant the SNP be honest and answer the question about how much has SFT cost to date?
Well, if they do then that will be something Labour have failed to do - publicly stated the true cost of PFI.
I have one question regarding SFT - if for example a school is built using SFT, does the school become the property of the local council or do we have a similar situation to PFI where the school is basically let out to the council?
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@66 Brownedov, you're right , just when we're starting to celebrate the nine stone cowboy he writes a piece that's hardly glencambly at all!
Obviously there's a serious rift in the space time continuum. Brian, set the phasers to stun, we need Glen back.
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The present Scottish Government in three years time will be picking up a bill of over £1billion annually on PFI schools etc built under Labour.
I.e. stuff that Labour built on tick and boasted about but did not pay for.
This of course slashes present operational budgets and leaves the SNP Governement facing the result of 40 years of underinvestment in much of our social structure while in the ridiculous position of paying off massive debt incurred by the folly of the previous Labour administration.
This before it even begins to address, in a very hostile economic environment,present problems.
Does that answer any questions?
Wouldn't it be great if we had an oil fund?
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"This isn't good, because if I had to choose between SNP and Labour in Glasgow North-East by-election I'd pick SNP. Sadly however I fear Labour holding it along Glenrothes lines. But even if the SNP half the Lab majority- its still damn good work."
Glenrothes lines meant playing the election on the basis of attacking the SNP led cooncil. They can't do that in Glasgow.
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49. At 02:12am on 02 Oct 2009, deanthetory wrote:
13. At 4:55pm on 01 Oct 2009, Phil_Anthropponent
It didn't give me satisfaction to agree with your observation, but have held the concern for a long time and I think its good that we are reminded of it. Sturgeon has a great way to go before she could operate at Salmonds level. Maybe that's why she seems weak? Compared to him she sinks into obscurity along side every other MSP of all sides. But to be fair to her she is no worse than the best that the other parties could put in the ring.
Maybe, as an independence seeker, I expect too much.
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sneckedagain #71
Great point. Could you tell me where you got the figure of £1 billion. I've been trying for quite some time to find out exactly how much these PFI schools are going to cost in the long run and info is, to say the least, sparce. I can't understand why the labour party isn't being questioned about this, it's like going to Goldbergs at Christmas - you seem to end up paying forever! My dad called it the Goldbergs hangover.
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#46 Oldnat
As one newspaper columnist has commented, you just have to witness the rage among the Labour Party to know that losing the Sun's backing is not unimportant to them, but we have to listen to Alistair Campbell playing it down. One of the architects of getting Murdoch on side for Labour.
If you hear any utterance from Labour now, the first thing you ask yourself is - 'is it more lies'.
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#70 GrassyKnollington
Yes, confusing isn't it? It's also disproved my suspicion of the real identity of the giggler, despite that person's undoubted glencambliness.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#72 TullochGorum
"Glenrothes lines meant playing the election on the basis of attacking the SNP led cooncil. They can't do that in Glasgow."
Quite so. I suspect the line will be almost the direct obverse in attacking the Scottish Government on the basis of their letting down Glasgow. Brazen hypocrisy, of course, but that's worked for NuLab before now.
They'll also probably try the same sort of postal voting wheeze as in Glenrothes, but the media might even have to be a little less glencambly if the registers are "lost" again which could make NuLab high command just a little more cautious.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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DeanTheTory:
Let's be fair. Is Sturgeon weak, or are we comparing her to Salmond, who appears untouchable at First Minister's Question Time? Salmond can work a crowd and does appeal far more then any other MSP. Sturgeon reminds me of Murphy, both have a casual approach when answering questions. It can work sometimes but Salmond can force his will in a room. It's a qaulity that a few men do have, to an extent Brown has the same kind of strength when he does speak although I feel it's diluted.
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It would be nice for Scotland to have an official seat at Copenhagen if no more than for symbolic reasons, because one of the great pains of our situation is being entirely absent from international affairs, but, it's up to people in Scotland to vote for independence, and it's up to the SNP to convince people in Scotland of the merits of independence. I'm not really surprised Labour have attempted to play politics with this one considering the next general election will be very tight, but Scotland could have contributed greatly. And, it reveals entirely the peculiar bind Scotland is in when we have to rely on the patronage of partisan politicians in order to even get a seat, and even then we would be there without a voice, absent but present, looking on and making notes, and daring to ask ever so nicely if we might be allowed say something to the other boys and girls, as they all look so nice and friendly.
No, it's one of the tragedies of modern Scotland. But, it's not just for self-aggrandisement, these are important meetings. What's more, it reveals something entirely lacking about our internal politics, and that is the chance to debate and discuss and internalise Scottish external policy because, as it stands, without external relations Scottish political debate is necessarily entirely an internal occupation, and therefore leaves open the door for the more cynical element of unionism to brand Scotland a parochial, self-interested, wee place. That's unfair, because, even if it is true, it is the symptom of unionism, rather, than some of the more extreme unionists would have you believe, the basis on which the union is made necessary, because somehow Scotland lacks something in its intrinsic character. In my opinion, Scotland lacks nothing more than any other country, or for that matter has any more intrinsic merit than any other country. What Scotland lacks is external affairs, and that is the last piece of the jigsaw as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, with a day off, on this wet and cold West of Scotland afternoon, I'm looking forward to Brian's radio show which has been excellent. I've said for a long time that Scotland needs a Question Time, and this is closest thing yet, so hopefully television will beckon soon, and hopefully, just as soon, Scotland will be able to use such a forum to debate our sovereign participation in world events. Who knows, who knows.
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# 62 deducted3points
Obviously you have a huge amount of experience in the building industry. How long do you think it takes from the design stage, through to tendering to handing over the keys? Once you have answered that then you will see just how silly your comments are.
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# 75. At 11:12am on 02 Oct 2009, hamish42 wrote:
”As one newspaper columnist has commented, you just have to witness the rage among the Labour Party to know that losing the Sun's backing is not unimportant to them…”
The real answer is two-fold; in the first place its perfectly true that nobody is going to stop voting Labour because the Sun starts saying vote for Dave. The problem is that the change of tack will now mean more stories about Labour politicians with their snouts in the trough, more stories about “loony” policies etc. and more use of unflattering photos showing ministers with their heads in their hands. Secondly, the fact that the Sun now feels able to “follow” public opinion in this way is a pretty big indicator that the press is no longer afraid of a party on its way out, and no longer willing to take Labour press releases as gospel.
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# 67 giggletheloneranger
as soon as your Labour buddies tell us the information how much PFFI/PPP is going to cost us, Derek.
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Dean, in reply to your blog;. I messed up my comment and it disappeared so I'll try and reproduce it here, but in a more concise form.
DC would be stupid to give Gordon Brown a lifeline by laying out all his policies. Why give an opponent a stool to stand on when he is busy hanging himself? For DC to lay out his policies in detail, which he has managed to avoid doing so far, (which is a good political technique) is just plain silly as it stops Gordon Brown being able to get a handle on him. DC has already won the UK election by supplying no details but platitudes. He should keep that up.
As to the Tories making any significant gains in Scotland; well, you can always dream, Dean.
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# 61 JRMacClure
glenbampbellizing
Is that the American spelling? ;-)
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Re 80
I do work in construction, a school will take two years minimum to build, given planning SEPA, etc, etc.
Anyway I would urge caution. When is a new school not a new school? The one in Wick, announced as part of the 14 is actually only 2/3 rd's of a school it seems. The SNP announcement failed to inform the electorate that the council has to pay one third out of exiting budgets. Highland are currently looking for recurring savings of £20m per year, so the project is far from certain to proceed.
I am more than a little disgusted at the petty political games here. If they are going to build new schools then fine get on with it. If not just say so and don't set the council up as fall guys.
The bottom line is this remains a mess needing leadership to sort it out. Don't see any, all I see is spin and half truths from the SNP government.
Meanwhile my kids go to school in a dump that struggles to attract teachers because the environment is bloody awful.
What a complete and utter mess, this is pure incompetence.
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Re 82 Gedguy
Ask your SNP buddies how much poorly educated kids cost the nation?
PFI may be expensive but it is better than nothing. Costs can be measured in many different ways, but I know first hand how a bad school can blight kids for life.
This is about more than just money or ideology, it is about giving all kids a fair start in life.
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38. cynicalHighlander
Thanks mrb and cH
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Neat little piece on the website about FOI requests, maybe Lord Foulkes should have a read!
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NorthHighlander:
#86.
"PFI may be expensive but it is better than nothing. Costs can be measured in many different ways, but I know first hand how a bad school can blight kids for life."
Expensive would be an understatment. If your willing to be ripped off in order for schools to be built, go right ahead! I was taught that saving is important and money does not grow in trees. I therefore do not accept that PFI is better then nothing, how can credit be sustainable? Hello? Didn't we have a recession based on bad credit being given?
Besides how can you sit there and type about giving children a fair start when they will eventually have to pay for the education later in life... is that fair? Isn't education suppose to be free, but then again it's free at the time of use but they'll pay for it later?
Perhaps you can explain how PFI will be paid for...
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#86 northhighlander
Yes! over a 150,000 kids that need new schooling.
That's a very large number of Scottish kids, this Scottish executive just ignore and use as a PFI excuse.
NO MORE EXCUSES SNP! you care little about the Scottish people.
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I've heard of James and the giant peach but Alex and the central belt is a tale of how a nationalist party hates the west and north of Scotland and deprives those area's of much needed public capital spending.
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#80 Gedguy2
2 years 5 months 16 hours 24 minutes and 37 seconds.
Truth hurts doesn't it. The SNP will not deliver a single new school by the end of their term in office. All they will manage is to complete those started under the previous Labour/Lib Dem Government.
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With the SNP in Holyrood with I presume access to the PFI figures points to one of three realities:
1. They know the figures and how much it is going to cost us over the coming decades and it is not that much so are not making a big deal of it.
2. The know the figures and how much it is going to cost us over the coming decades and it is a very large figure and they are keeping this information for a forth coming election.
3. The figures are not available to Holyrood civil servants.
So,
Option 1 - this does not appear to hold much credance, if the figures were good the Westminster govt and previous Scottish Labour govt would have released them
Option 2 - this may explain the look on some Labour MSPs faces as they know the revelations will come at a time that the SNP choose (unless Labour come clean before hand)
Option 3 - bit of a conspiracy theorist dream that one.
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#81 Caledonian54
Spot on, I'd say and particularly "more use of unflattering photos showing ministers with their heads in their hands"
J.A.MacN's There Have Been Better Springboards very much agrees, with an excellent [if not for the squeamish] pic of the Harperson, here.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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# 85 northhighlander
So do I work in construction and when you say that two years is the minimum; you are, of course, making the assumption that everything goes according to plan. You know, full well, that in construction that is a very, very rare occasion. So let's not try and kid ourselves that the SNP's plans should be any different from any other construction programme.
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# 86 northhighlander
You mean like the extra 100,000 kids that the SNP have helped since they have got into power? Keeping in mind that the SNP haven't finished their term in office yet. At the very least you should give them the chance to sort this out. Labour had 50 years to sort it out. I don't see you castigating them.
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A deputy FM who would rather have been anywhere else than parliament yesterday. The very same woman who said that the SNP would introduce major policies on preventitive health issues like 2 hours of PE each week for every school kid.It's becoming a very hollow joke, these so called promises.
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# 91 giggletheloneranger
Tell me something, Derek. Did this happen all of a sudden under the 2 years of the SNP or 50 years of neglect under Labour?
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# 92 deducted3points
50 years, yes, the truth does hurt, doesn't it? I see you still haven't answered the question about your knowledge of the building industry.
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Re89 Thomas porter
Okay Thomas what is your solution? I don't like PFI, I don't like having a mortgage. However if I am to ever own my house then a mortgage is the only way I am going to get it.
So lets see the alternatives. Most large public sector schemes involve borrowing money that has to be paid back. So if not PFI what is it to be? More fairyland economics that deliver nothing?
There is a huge cost to the nation in poor educational attainment. That is clear for all to see. It is also a personal tragedy for those it affects.
Okay to rubbish the delivery method when you have something better, but the reality is you have nothing in place at all apart from a group of individuals doing very nicely out of the SFT.
How much have they trousered so far? How can this be value for money? the money they have wasted so far would pay fo rhte extra 3rd of Wick High School. What a complete and utter shambles.
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#85 northhighlander
"The SNP announcement failed to inform the electorate that the council has to pay one third out of exiting budgets. Highland are currently looking for recurring savings of £20m per year, so the project is far from certain to proceed."
But is that not an appropriate localism? I'd argue strongly for regional aid for rural areas and that the existing councils all cover too large a geographic area. A three-tier system like the Swiss commune, canton, confederation would be more appropriate, but what's the point of central or regional governnment spending on things which the locals don't feel important enough to back with their own purses?
#86 northhighlander
"PFI may be expensive but it is better than nothing ... This is about more than just money or ideology, it is about giving all kids a fair start in life."
A reasonable point of view, but of course most of us will never know what our great-great-grandchildren think about us spending their money. I would certainly agree that a public debate on PFI/PPP vs other kinds of funding would be more than welcome. IMO, it's a great pity that none of the media have forced the pace on getting the facts public. Given the silence to date of the tories on this topic, I doubt that will be one of the lines of attack the Sun takes.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Re 95 Gedguy
I am in total agreement, two years is the most optomisitc, nearer 3 is more realistic. Especially as we don't use stanard designs in Scotland which would save money and time, but reduce cronies fees. I was making the point that the important issue is that there will be no new SNP commissioned schools opened this parliamnet. However the next education secretary, and I sincerely hope Fiona Hyslop gets the boot, will not be attanding so many opening ceremonies as we will have at least a two year hole in the programme.
You will be like myself, seeing a construction industry crying out for the work at present. If construction got 1 percent of the support and help that the financial sector was given we would have full employment just now.
But we have a political class that has few from industry on board. But in Scotland we don't have much industry left... We don't have a government keen on doing much about it either.
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gedguy!
50 years of what?, 10 years of devolution, giving by a labour government.How many years were the tories in control of Scotland at westminster, prior to devolution?.
No more excuses please! face the truth and call on your party the SNP to deliver what they promised, after all it's what you voted for.
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Re 96 Gedguy
Okay tell me how the SNP have helped 100 000 kids.
I have never said Labour was blameless, clearly they are not. Look at my previous posts I am happy to recognise success and failure on all sides, that is the benefit of not being wedded to a party where everything SNP is good and everything else is bad. You can be objective. It is how progress is made, by being objective.
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54. At 03:18am on 02 Oct 2009, oldnat
Ah, you spot the elephant in the room! The Scottish tory core vote has become a diluted mixture of every other party's voters. We need to build a structure to unite them once again under the party of MacMillanite progress (okay, I'm taking some poets licence here).
83. At 12:29pm on 02 Oct 2009, gedguy2
Your comments are always welcome! You do have a fair point about the Cameron tactic to avoid revealing policy. The only problem with this is it can be adverse as much as beneficial.
Although people will consider voting tory this time round, this support is soft. Just look at the LibDem conference fallout; despite its obvious chaos; the very reminder that they still existed (with a 'mansion tax') was enough to drag DC back into the 37-39% region.
In short he needs policy to strengthen the ship, and a policy of fiscal autonomy for Scotland (the only issue perhaps being the oil)- this will be enough to secure 20-24% of the Scottish vote, and by doing this enough to strengthen the English support (the old, 'lets make the Scots stand on their own two feet' stuff).
Phil- we agree, but Thomas makes a damn interesting point about whether or not we're guilty of comparing Sturgeon to Salmond. The clear indication of Thomas being that no one can match Salmond; personally I disagree- Cameron will be more than a strategic match for Salmond politically.
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What is PFI?
In its simplest terms it is a way of keeping debt of the Government's books. That's it, it's nothing to do with "best value" or cheaper costs.
Here's the main differences between the old style public funding and the new style PFI.
With public funding of a building project a company is contracted by the Government/Local Authority to build with money borrowed by the Government/Local Authority from the banks. At the end of the build the Government/Local Authority owns the building and provides the services. It can alter the use of the building, sell it off or change the level of services provided in that building as required.
With PFI, a consortium builds the project and when it is built it still owns it. The Government/Local Authority is then locked into a 30 to 60 year lease (sometimes more) for the cost of all services, the use of the building and the level of services provided. In short it cannot sell the building or change the cost of the lease which includes services for decades whether circumstances dictate it or not.
PFI does not alter the construction cost of a new building, all that's changed is that the public authority has to pay the PFI consortium rather than the banks. What does alter is that the public authority is now locked into a fixed price lease for decades with no flexibility in respect of the building ownership, use or provision of services and this increases the overall costs associated with the building and the ability of the Goverment/Local Authority to make savings on costs in the future.
The SNP's SFT was an attempt to avoid the costs and mess of PFI but since it has no authority to borrow money unlike local authorities in Scotland it has to hunt for sources of funding to do this. (See my first post which is the first post in this thread.)
For an unbiased view of PFI have a look at the PDF "Written evidence to the Finance Committee of the Scottish Parliament with regards to its inquiry into the funding of capital investment. CIPHP; 2008 Jan." which was produced by University of Edinburgh's Centre for International Public Health Policy.
Their main conclusion is that PFI is not a good method of funding public works.
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Online Ed Here
northhighlander writes:
Meanwhile my kids go to school in a dump that struggles to attract teachers because the environment is bloody awful.
What a complete and utter mess, this is pure incompetence.
On whose part? The state of schools is down to decades of underinvestment whilst the policies of some councils (Glasgow) when it comes to teachers needs some scrutiny.
The SFT debate is nothing if it doesn't include PFI figures. Even if the SNP simply allow existing PFI projects to continue whilst suspending new projects then it would be a sensible move. In England the Treasury have had to step in to underwrite PFI projects that had collapsed due to the current financial climate.
One cannot blindly use the Governments equivalent of the credit card if one doesn't know what the current level of debt actually is.
The other point of course is that the lack of borrowing powers for any Scottish Government needs to be seriously addressed. We need to at least acknowledge that the Scottish Government is hamstrung by the constraints of the current system.
So, the debate has three significant areas that ought to inform the participants. By eliminating two of these areas (PFI and the constitution) and concentrating on SFT we end up with with opinions based on ignorance rather than opinions based on information and facts.
On another note:
On some other posts, I'm struck by the increasing use of intolerant language emanating from some Unionists. Jim Murphy insisted that many Scots actually 'hate' others because of their political views and there are [ridiculous] accusations that the SNP somehow have an agenda against, or 'hate', certain areas of Scotland.
Added to this was the clear attempts by Labour at suggesting links or similarities existed between their political opponents and European far right organisations.
It is quite an unhealthy development and unwelcome use of language by an increasingly desperate Labour party.
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100. At 1:56pm on 02 Oct 2009, northhighlander
"How much have they trousered so far? How can this be value for money? the money they have wasted so far would pay fo rhte extra 3rd of Wick High School. What a complete and utter shambles."
That is just it. The SNPs' Scottish Futures Trust is a failed policy, but too important to be reversed. But equally the PFI/PPP wasn't an unqualified success (as you accept).
The solution to the need to renovate Scottish schools must surely be a mixture of central government funding and local government funding. Why the 'private capital' mantra?
It isn't a pipedeam either! Look at the 1950s', central government ordered 1m new social houses to be completed in five years, they Harold MacMillan completed the job by 1958- before he even took the PM seat.
There is scope and ability for central government, in coordination with local government to launch largescale building projects, and follow through successfully.
My main point is basic: why always seek to use independent capital all the time? Sometimes it just complicates the broth.
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Edinburgh Uni did a study of PFI projects in the NHS. It doesn't make comfortable reading. Our own dear beeb figured that Edinburgh Royal Infirmary cost £184 million to build and will eventually cost the taxpayer over £1 billion.
It's not a great advert for PFI.
www.health.ed.ac.uk/CIPHP/news/article_id...
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#100 Northhighlander
PFI is more like a very expensive long term lease with maintenance. At least with a mortgage you end up owning the property at the end of the term.
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Re 101 Brownedov
Yes it would be an appropriate localism if it had been explained honestly and the council had the means to raise the third. However it was announced clearly that Wick was to get a new school, no strings were announced. How very Nu Lab, the announcement one day, the reality later showing something completely different.
Also the council can't increase council tax, it can only get the extra money from cutting services somewhere else. So what is really wrong here is the duplicity and spin.
Also PFI schemes usually last 25 years, so even if you are on an indecently short breeding cycle the reference to our great grand children's money is a gross exaggeration even by your standards.
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# 102 northhighlander
I agree with all of your post apart from the dig at the SNP.
Let's be honest here, northighlander, there will be no schools finished by the end of this term of office; this is obvious to anyone that has ever worked in the building industry. The important point is that over £3 billion has been allocated to build new schools and this should be applauded. Is everything going to plan for the SNP; no, it isn't and it is likely to get worse as the Tory cuts (caused by Labour's mismanagement of the economy) start to bite. There are going to be hard times ahead and hard decisions to take. The Scottish government is not going to please everyone all of the time in these times of recession, and a sensible person would realise this. However, since the Labour party has reneged on its socialist beginnings and drifted towards the Tory, middle England, policies; who do you think is going to look after the working classes and those not in a middle income bracket? This is the choice that we all have to make. If I was living in Scotland I know whom I would be voting for and why. The sad fact is that the Scots are never going to get to use the natural resources that it has to bring about those policies which the Labour party should have been implementing until we get our independence from an imperialistic and warmongering UK.
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# 104 northhighlander
Let's make this clear; I am not a member of the SNP. However, I believe that Scotland will benefit greatly from being free from the restrictives ties it has with the UK.
As to the 100,000 I refer you to the debate in Holyrood at FMQs yesterday.
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# 103 giggletheloneranger
Keep up, Derek. I live in England and have done so for decades. As far as I am aware of the SNP have no candidates in London.
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The SNP made a manifesto commitment to build new schools "brick for brick" alike with the outgoing administration.
Are the SNP now! saying that they have dumped another pledge because of PFI and the last administration?
Come on nats everyone now knows that SFT is just another form of PFI.
So how much has SFT cost without it even lifting a finger yet?.
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#109 snowthistle
"Edinburgh Uni did a study of PFI projects in the NHS. It doesn't make comfortable reading. Our own dear beeb figured that Edinburgh Royal Infirmary cost £184 million to build and will eventually cost the taxpayer over £1 billion.
It's not a great advert for PFI."
And that's not taking into account that the ground it was built on was only acquired on a 10 year lease which will shortly be coming up for renewal...
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I had a discussion with the Chair of Planning councillor in my town a few years ago. I have had a few run ins - including one very public one - with the gentleman on a few occasions.
I asked him why the Labour controlled council had failed to maintain the schools.
His answer was that under Thatcher councils were forbidden to use the money from sales of council houses for other capital projects. Don't know the truth in that statement. But I'd like to know where all the money went.
Then I tried to get him to justify PFI. He couldn't. My eldest son's secondary school was rebuilt under PFI. The school was desperately needing rebuilt but in doing so the council reduced the secondary schools from 6 to 3, one of which is a faith school. The new schools are all PFI, and not a single one is allowed to be used by the various youth groups and clubs that used to use the old schools - boys brigade for example.
PFI is a mess, brought in by the Conservatives and "developed" by Labour. These new schools are not owned by the council, much in that the hospital is not owned either. In 30 years times the companies that own these can close them.
I do not agree with any government seeking independent funding, especially one that is such a blatant rip off.
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#114gedguy
Hey! we are discussing Scotland here, Jeez! that's a bit soft gedguy
play the london card when all else fails. chop chop Boris!
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# 118 giggletheloneranger
Lol...time for your medication, I think.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Does Giggle always talk rubbish on here?
'Sheesh'
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59 JRMacClure
This is my first post, I hope it helps.
Glenlivet Gas find was kept very, very quiet in Scotland
BBC covered it, but I only found it at the time as I was aware of it and hunting the media for it...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8255552.stm
The only other media coverage I am aware of is in a related article in the Herald
http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/corporate-sme/faroe-petroleum-takes-hit-to-make-long-term-gain-1.922015
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Glen Campbell in his article completely failed to mention that one of the key reasons the Scottish govt should have been represented is that they have one of the most ambitious and advanced policies in the world with regards cutting carbon emissions.
Nicola Sturgeon was her usual excellent self. The most interesting thing for me was confirmation from the Speaker that he's a dyed in the wool Unionist. And he should have been far more concerned in demanding the labour benches be much quieter when a Minister is speaking. I could barely hear Nicola Sturgeon speak at times.
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#74
John Swinney's office will be only too happy to give you the details. He has, of course, been pointing this outfor some time but our friendly and honest press haven't been broadcasting it.
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53. Deanthetory
But she (Annabel Goldie) has done brilliant work de-toxifying the image, and more importantly appealing to the traditional tory vote in Scotland
Though the problem for the Tories is that for every Annabel Goldie there are two Michael Forsyths, three Dan Hannons and four Michael Howards.
Sorry Dean, but wishful thinking aside, your party remains toxic for large numbers of Scottish voters. The Scottish Tory core vote is found amongst the better off in rural areas and in the more middle class suburbs and that's where the Tory vote will remain. In order to make an electoral break-through in Scotland the Conservatives have to appeal to working class voters in the cities and the post-industrial towns of the Central Belt. There's no prospect of that happening. In England the Conservatives have been able to maintain support amongst working class people by playing the patriotism card, that's not possible for them in a Scotland where a British identity is weak and at best conditional.
100. Jimmythepict
You've summed up PFI in a nutshell. It's basically one of Gordon's infamous accountancy conjuring tricks and will end up costing the taxpayer much more in the long run. The SFT can be legitimately criticised on many grounds, but at least it's an attempt to remove the profit motive from the provision of public services and infrastructure. Both Labour and the Conservatives promise us more private gain at public expense.
Brownedov - If your UK address has broadband, there's a wee bit of equipment called a SlingBox or a SlingPlayer which may solve all your TV problems. There are a few different makes, I think they cost about 80 to 100 quid. One of my neighbours uses it to watch British telly on his laptop, it works pretty well and is perfectly legal.
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# 121 BoNG0_1
Derek writes rubbish most of the time but some of it is quite funny.
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#85
I asked before where this school you are talking about is but got no reply.
What is the composition of the Council that runs and maintains this school. A strnage pattern is beginning to develop across Scotland at he moment. Some councils are getting class sizes down. Some councils are mainytaining their schools and improving them.
It seems to depend on each council. We wouldn't like to think it was something to do with the political composition of the council, would we?
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#106 DougtheDug
Many thanks for the link to the CIPHP's PDF. Very interesting reading and seemingly being proven with with articles like the Lanark Gazette's South Lanarkshire Council defends schools bill just starting to trickle into the dead tree press.
For any old Labour supporters out there, UNISON's concise The case against PFI must be uncomfortable reading and perhaps help them to understand the comments by UNISON's Kevin Coyne on this website's Delegate views: Brown leadership. I for one am surprised he managed to moderate his comments to statements like "I certainly recognise Alistair Darling's description of a party that has lost the will to live" and "As a trade union official it is my job to try and rally the members but it is more and more difficult".
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#124sneckedagain
John Swinney's office, giggle..giggle..giggle
Centre 1 Eastkilbride, that's entertainment.
Glasgow dogs use to have a GNARL now! it's been reduced to a non GARL.
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Online Ed Here
Post number 106 from DougtheDug is an excellent summary of the differences between PFI and SFT.
The Unionists here appear, like Andy Kerr, to endorse PFI despite it's failings in England and the widely held view that it is does not offer anywhere near value for money.
SFT may ultimately fail, that is why we need to have a real debate on the available options and any of course an honest look at whether powers of borrowing ought to be extended to the Scottish parliament.
We must look at what tools are available to the Scottish Government before blaming any failure on incompetence - similarly, the failings of PFI need to be highlighted and the savings resulting from the suspension of such a funding mechanism should be acknowledged.
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#125
Another Infrequent attempt at the truth." The SFT can be legitimately criticised on many grounds, but at least it's an attempt to remove the profit motive from the provision of public services"
Do you just close your ears when even the finance minister admits that SFT would not fund 56 new schools and private finance inititives would be needed.
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This is not a competition.
I would very much like the SNP to say that it will build no more schools that we cannot afford to pay for.
A lot of the PFI projrects are going to have to be rescued by the public purse as they are going under.
A sort of reverse double whammy for unfortunate tax or council tax payers.
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Sunny1976 here,
Re my own 122
Message for you ..... that's the mods, why have the BBC accepted my user name as Sunny1976, then call me "you" ???
What a welcome, I'm overwhelmed!
Sunny1976
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#111 northhighlander
"However it was announced clearly that Wick was to get a new school, no strings were announced. How very Nu Lab, the announcement one day, the reality later showing something completely different."
I didn't see the announcement so cannot comment on it, but if it was unqualified then it was indeed disappointingly NuLab.
"Also the council can't increase council tax, it can only get the extra money from cutting services somewhere else."
I thought the council tax freeze was voluntary on the part of councils. Am I mistaken? Whether so or no, of course compromises will have to be made, but if they are at the expense of necessary schools then clearly I'm right in thinking that Highland Council covers too large a geographic area in the absence of a more local tier of government.
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Online Ed Here
With news that Al Megrahi has released yet more papers that he claims cast doubt on his conviction I'll take this opportunity to post a link to some analysis of Glenn Campbell's recent trip to the USA.
Glenn Campbell 'The Ninestone Cowboy' - a week in the USA.
Click Here
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#121 BoNG0_1
Yes, but what worries me is the repeated use of "Jeez", previously only used regularly on these threads by R-E and derekb.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#132sneckedagain
"Brick for Brick"?
The SNP cabinet are in the bunker on many issues but are you saying that it's alright to waste 1Bn on the Edinburgh trams and not build one single school?
Now Salmond may want to build a wall around his Edinburgh capital and exclude all others from progress but the public will demand an end to this nonsense.
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130. At 3:11pm on 02 Oct 2009, U14094468
"The Unionists here appear, like Andy Kerr, to endorse PFI despite it's failings in England.."
'The Unionists', what utter generalised nonsense.
You can find plenty of Unionists opposing PFI/PPP- just because it doesnt suit your 'us' and 'them' narrative is no reason to generalise like such.
But on your actual point, which is fair (unlike your generalisatios):
PPP/PFI is a failed policy, the debts which is racks up in the longterm are classic Labour; build now pay later. Tax and Spend like rabbid rabbits [monty python anyone?].
The only problem is that the SNP SFT isn't all that much of a success either, because it seems to suck money away- to not really build anything.
Why can't be just have a government coordinated building expansion programme; where firms can be guided by central and local government officials just as MacMillan did in the mid 1950s' when constructing the housing/social housing.
Lets just simplify and keep away from all this 'independent capital' nonsense, do what works, drop what doesnt. PPP/PFI and SFT both dont work as methods. So drop them and use the directed industry model of MacMillan.
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Re 107 Greenock boy
The use of intemperate language reduces debate to the most basic level. However this is not the preserve of the Unionist camp, there are many many examples of Nationalists using the very same tactic. However it is not unexpected that you should choose to ingore this fact.
After two years in government the SNP should surely be taking poor performing councils to task on teachers? Is that not the job of Ms Hyslop, assuming she understands that this is her job. So surely the ultimate responsibility for educational standards lies with the government? I am all for local decision making, but if there are problems the standards should be set nationally and councils held to account.
The PFI SFT agrument is clear in that we know PFI is not ideal by any means and everyone would agree an alternative offering better value would be most welcome. However after two years we would have expected that the SFT would be up and running and we could examine the model they are using and debate the issue fully.
Truth is though we don't know how the SFT will work in reality because it is still in its very expensive embryonic stage. So in the mean time we stagnate, or indulge in political spin and half truths.
And all the way along we fail to raise educational attainment in Scotland. Simply because we are not acting in any way. That is my definition of incompetence.
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#124 Snookeredagain
er, so you made it up :-D
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# 136 Brownedov
Jeez
I think this is his Northern Irish spelling.
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One of the apparently not so well known disadvatages of PFI is that because the local councils and health boards don't actually own schools or hospitals, the owner always has to be consulted to get permission to change layouts within the premises. There was an example of this where Hairmyres hospital moved physiotherapy equipment from another of its facilities which it was closing. The hospital staff could not reposition equipment within the hospital to accomodate this without permission of the owner. This was described as a nuisance.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the fact that Brian is the BBC Scotland's political editor and the reason why he has that title is to comment on the political scene for us? So, isn't it strange that we've just had the last Labour conference before the next GE and Brian has hardly had a word to say about it?
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127. sneckedagain
"I asked before where this school you are talking about is but got no reply."
I actually went into the details of this a long time ago for northhighlander. Wick High School is as bad as he says, but when money was available Highland Council misclassified it as not being among Highland's worst schools. Following a good campaign by the locals it was reclassified by the Council - hence it's appearance on the rebuild list.
northhighlander
You're getting as bad as the Weegies! - bleating because not everything is gifted to you. Your council has a capital projects allowance built into the grant from Scottish Government - that's where it will get the cash for it's one-third cost.
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Re 142
I have been a contractor on two PFI schemes. What I will say is that the facilities are more expensive but some of that extra cost is because they are fit for purpose. We built a new Health centre which replaced a shmbolic building. We factored in a cost of £30m2 for maintenance the NHS Trust were spending £11 on the old building. It showed, the roof leaked, the windows were rotten, the electrics were knacked.
So when comparisons are done, this is usually forgotten. Also re Hamish, yes the owner is consulted, but this is rarely an issue of contention, PFI operators generally want happy customers.
So the comparisons are not as cut and dried, the worst excesses of PFI were in the first days when huge property deals sweetened the pot at excessive cost to the taxpayer. Those days are gone, long gone. They still are an expensive way to work but money has to be borrowed and paid back.
Perhaps we can borrow of one of our own banks now?
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hamish42,
In one of the many local council reports that I have trawled through trying to find out how much PPP will cost my local council I came across a meeting where they were discussing the need to seek permission from the owner to hold parent's evenings, school plays, christmas fayres etc,etc.
I'm sure this will just be a formality but more red tape all the same.
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northhighlander writes:
The use of intemperate language reduces debate to the most basic level. However this is not the preserve of the Unionist camp.
It has clearly been adopted by senior Labour politicians and the Labour party of late which is the point I am making and one that you and indeed the entire Scottish media chose to ignore. The English press, not surprisingly, have picked up on this latest smear tactic and are reporting it.
The SNP by comparisson have not made any such high profile and clearly well orchestrated remarks so your accusation that I am somehow ignoring them is bizarre.
The PFI SFT agrument is clear in that we know PFI is not ideal by any means and everyone would agree an alternative offering better value would be most welcome.
How can it be clear when all of the figures are not yet in the public domain? You also fail to address the lack of borrowing powers avalable to the Scottish Government.
To deanthetory:
I am aware of only Unionists on this blog supporting PFI, granted not all Unionists do so my feeling is that most do. I would ask that you take take the context into account when very quickly penned contributions are posted. Yes, my comment could have been better worded but the point was surely clear.
Generalised insults of course are something altogether different and usually form the opening gambit in comments from one or more well known Unionist contributors to the blog.
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143. At 4:36pm on 02 Oct 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the fact that Brian is the BBC Scotland's political editor and the reason why he has that title is to comment on the political scene for us? So, isn't it strange that we've just had the last Labour conference before the next GE and Brian has hardly had a word to say about it?
Not only that, but his 'Big Debate' was not apparently big enough to accomodate any questions on the Labour conference or it's aftermath.
The programme was dreadfull given the wealth of interesting issues raised by the Labour conference that were simply ignored.
Hostels for young mums
Two referendums (vote change and independence)
Climate change delegation
Scots 'hate' the Tories
Murphy/Gray debate challenges
The Sun's political schizophrenia in scotland
Brown's loss of control in interview
The hostels was mentioned right at the end but only when another question on working mothers was 'hijacked'.
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Brian,
Now that this website's TV firms propose election debates for the three "main" [English] parties, will BBC Scotland and STV propose debates for the four main Scottish parties to be aired simultaneously? How otherwise will any semblance of balance be preserved?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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139. northhighlander
"After two years in government the SNP should surely be taking poor performing councils to task on teachers? Is that not the job of Ms Hyslop, assuming she understands that this is her job. So surely the ultimate responsibility for educational standards lies with the government?"
I'm puzzled that you keep on banging on about the Government being responsible for firing "poor" teachers. It has been explained to you in the clearest terms that this is a function of LA/school management, and the historical reasons why this frequently did not happen previously.
Don't you ever read the answers you get when you ask questions?
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oldnat writes:
Your council has a capital projects allowance built into the grant from Scottish Government - that's where it will get the cash for it's one-third cost.
Yes, and one interesting fact about the grant that is never mentioned by the media is that by agreeing to freeze their council tax bills the councils are given a generous grant that is better than the settlement the Scottish Government itself receives from Westminster.
Locals pay less and their council receives more.
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PS to my #149
Brian,
The BBC link I quote makes no mention of it [there's a shock!] but Sky's equivalent TV Trio Push For Three Leaders' Debates ends with "Each of the broadcasters will seek to make suitable arrangements for ensuring impartiality across the UK."
Do share the BBC plan for impartialiaty with us soon, please.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#84. At 12:38pm on 02 Oct 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
# 61 JRMacClure
glenbampbellizing
Is that the American spelling? ;-)
No no. I was being quite trying for being a good adopted Scot and not quite making it (hence the 'z') My fingers were confused if I was typing glencampbellizing or bampot which is surely a related term, is it not? ;-)
But whist then the wee lad actually does a fairly decent article and now I'm soooo confused.
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Online Ed Here
North Glasgow College hosted a debate as the campaign for the Glasgow North East by-election got underway in earnest today.
Labour appear to want to fight the campaign again on devolved issues, knife crime was the issue picked up by their candidate today.
Interesting few weeks lie ahead.
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#149 Brownedov:
will BBC Scotland and STV propose debates for the four main Scottish parties to be aired simultaneously?
Not a great idea Brownedov. England would get the party leaders of the Lib-Dems, Conservatives and Labour debating, leaders who make the policy as well as enforce it but the Scottish debate would be downgraded to a sub-debate between one party leader, two regional organisation lieutenants and an MSP group leader.
Either Salmond gets to debate with the other party leaders or it's not aired in Scotland.
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Sorry, but the whole argument on how to fund 'ALL' the requied schools is very very very very very very simple.
...cancel the Trident replacement.
Simples 'Tisk'
Tha is why we don't need the unionists.
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#152. Isn't there some legal action the ignored party/parties can take? It ignores the fact that there are other parties with MPs. And this is after all about electing LOCAL MPs--unless you lot have taken to electing a PRESIDENT and forgotten to mention it.
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"Scottish solutions for English problems" :-)
What a shame that London Labour doesn't tell Gray and Murphy what the line they are supposed to take is
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/10/council-tax-freeze-for-london.html
"Council tax freeze for London"
Any SNP policy (sensibly) adopted by Labour in England is "good" down there, but "bad" up here.
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#155 DougtheDug
"Either Salmond gets to debate with the other party leaders or it's not aired in Scotland."
Sorry, I expressed myself badly. What you say is exactly what should happen, although the "it's not aired in Scotland" bit would be impossible to enforce for satellite viewers.
The very fact that there's nothing yet on this topic that I can find on this website makes me very suspicious that Brian and his colleagues may not even have been consulted before the "joint" proposal was made.
Nothing on the "Wales politics" site either, despite the fact that PC will also be livid about the plan. Yet another example of the BBC's UK=England attitude, it seems.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#156 Bongo
Um Bongo! Yes! maybe a lot of people would agree if you cancelled Trident, however Scotland would only receive something like 11% of the available monies.
More SNP guess work. Brownedov also has the guesstimate fault. As does Oldnat and several other SNP members.
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157. JRMacClure
It's no worse than anywhere else. the parties make cartel deals with each other to fix things for themselves. Politicians seldom believe in democracy.
In Asheville NC, the council even tried to ensure that only Republicans or Democrats could stand for the city council!
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@155 indeed Doug, seeing as we're talking construction works, why should Eck as a director debate with two foremen and a charge hand?
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#158 oldnat
Are you suggesting that London and Scotland amalgamate and from some type of union. Giggle..giggle..giggle
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#157 JRMacClure
"Isn't there some legal action the ignored party/parties can take?"
Great question, but I'm no lawyer. Maybe others here can answer.
"unless you lot have taken to electing a PRESIDENT and forgotten to mention it"
That's the "beauty" of not writing our constitution down. We sort of have but the establishment prefer to pretend we haven't except when it suits them.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#161. I wasn't making a comparison other than that your political system doesn't support voting for a PRESIDENT so acting like it does--doesn't make sense.
Having a debate between three major parties there LOCKS OUT any local parties which is unfair on the face of it. These guys are NOT being voted for all over the UK. A presidential debate makes sense in the US. The whole country votes for a president.
I was not claiming some superiority for our system but pointing out that your system and ours our different. Therefore having what are in essence "presidential debates" doesn't make a lot of sense.
As far as I can tell this is no more than an "Americans do it so we should" exercise. Who in Scotland or for that matter in most of the UK will be voting for any one of these men?
They won't. They will be voting for their own MP. So what sense does this make? And what do the various parties that are being ignored as though they don't have MPs up for election do?
My question really is if there action that can be taken?
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155. At 5:36pm on 02 Oct 2009, DougtheDug wrote:
#149 Brownedov:
"Either Salmond gets to debate with the other party leaders or it's not aired in Scotland."
Nonsense. Sorry but this is a UK general election, and the SNP are a minor party in a UK context.
We dont have major party's debating the Greens, UKIP, English Democrats, so why SNP?
Oh wait- the SNP feel some kind of entitlement to be present- well no. The SNP dont even represent 'Scotland', they represent a minority of Scottish voters, there is absolutely no cause for Salmond to put his oar in.
"No, No, No."
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#163. At 6:11pm on 02 Oct 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
#158 oldnat
Are you suggesting that London and Scotland amalgamate and from some type of union. Giggle..giggle..giggle
No, dear heart. As usual you miss the point.
SNP does council tax freeze = evil
Labour does council tax freeze = salvation of world
It's known as hypocrisy.
This has nothing to do with thinking that Scots are incapable of self-governance, in fact the opposite. I know these subtleties are difficult to grasp while one's brain is oxygen deprived from giggling, but do try to keep up with the conversation. *kindly smile*
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148. At 5:06pm on 02 Oct 2009, U14094468
The pathetic, silly and childishness of Murphy and Gray when they said that Scotland "hates the tories" is beyond belief.
But then so was the ease to which the media seemed to shallow the tripe from the New Labour regime.
151. At 5:10pm on 02 Oct 2009, U14094468 wrote:
"oldnat writes:
Your council has a capital projects allowance built into the grant from Scottish Government - that's where it will get the cash for it's one-third cost."
Didn't the SNP executive/administration at Holyrood slash the social housing budget for councils by £180 millions?
Thats going to solve social housing construction funding as they also abolish right to buy (and thereby reduce funds for new builds even more).
Good old SNP, cutting back on social housing- slashing the most vulnerable.
It makes me sick.
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Tonight's Edinburgh Evening News has an interview with Iain Gray.
"Bullish Gray Shows True Colours"
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/features/Interview-Scottish-Labour-leader-Iain.5698266.jp
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# 153 JRMacClure
I suspect that someone (guess who) might have had a quiet word in Glenn's ear, hence the non glenncampbellised article.
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166. At 6:25pm on 02 Oct 2009, deanthetory wrote:
155. At 5:36pm on 02 Oct 2009, DougtheDug wrote:
#149 Brownedov:
"Either Salmond gets to debate with the other party leaders or it's not aired in Scotland."
Nonsense. Sorry but this is a UK general election, and the SNP are a minor party in a UK context.
AHA! So they are being voted on by the Scots and the question is which Scots will vote for Dave Cameron.
Right? Right? He IS up for election in Scotland. ISN'T he? They ARE running for President of the UK.
Because otherwise it is NOT a "UK contest". It is a local contest for local MPs. And anyone who has local MPs running should have a right to be heard.
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166. deanthetory
The LDs are also a minority party in the UK, and Clegg has no chance of becoming PM, so there is no reason for them to be in such a debate between the 2 guys who have a chance of becoming PM of UK. You should, at least, have some consistency in your argument.
That you Brits want to concentrate power in the hands of one of these men, without the checks and balances that JR's system has is beyond me. The trouble is that you have forgotten the democratic aspect of elections.
PS Hope you're enjoying reading the Sun these days! :-)
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Deanthetory, and does DC saying that inheritance taxes for the rich should be slashed make you sick? Wonder where he'll get the money to pay for that? Hmmmm?
Of course, in mid-election season he's not going to mention that little detail will he?
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166. deanthetory
"Nonsense. Sorry but this is a UK general election, and the SNP are a minor party in a UK context."
Are you frightened that they might be shown up.
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168. deanthetory
"It makes me sick." Hey! You're even sounding like the Sun now!
Actually, they brought forward the social housing spend from next financial year to this one to support the construction industry. That's why it's not there any more.
I know Unionists may find this difficult, but once the money has been spent, you can't spend it again.
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169. raisethegame
That's rather wicked from the Johnston Group!
"Iain Gray has been down the shops, accosting women with their trolleys at Tesco and Morrisons"
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#170. At 6:30pm on 02 Oct 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
# 153 JRMacClure
I suspect that someone (guess who) might have had a quiet word in Glenn's ear, hence the non glenncampbellised article.
Hey, no giving me a hard time because I mis-spell like an American. ;-)
(No one has ever explained why you spell the colo(u)r "grey" and the name "Gray" by the way)
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#165 JRMacClure
"Having a debate between three major parties there LOCKS OUT any local parties which is unfair on the face of it ... The whole country votes for a president."
When it comes to politics, British broadcasters don't do "fair", but then neither do US ones. England has a few directly elected mayors of whom the most powerful by a long way is the Mayor of London. In the 2008 mayoral election, there were ten candidates but on the two televised debates just three of them were invited. Care to guess which three parties they represented?
The BBC said: "On Tuesday, Newsnight is holding the first live televised debate between the leading London mayoral contenders."
Sky News said: "The three main candidates for the position of London Mayor have held their last televised debate on Sky News"
It is undoubtedly true that while our reeking 1872 plurality voting "system" means individuals vote only for their own MPs, many or perhaps even most people are at least heavily influenced by the identity of the party leader who will become the "elective dictator" in our quaint system.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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173. At 6:36pm on 02 Oct 2009, JRMacClure
"Deanthetory, and does DC saying that inheritance taxes for the rich should be slashed make you sick? Wonder where he'll get the money to pay for that? Hmmmm?
Of course, in mid-election season he's not going to mention that little detail will he?"
Ending inheritance tax is vital in the battle to change the culture prevading this country. By cuttingthis tax you encourage people to save; by removing the impitus not to.
It was consumer debt as much as Labours' debt which will undermine the strength of a UK economic recovery, we need to do all we can to end the 'borrow now, pay later' culture of credit debt. Lets start here.
172. At 6:36pm on 02 Oct 2009, oldnat
"PS Hope you're enjoying reading the Sun these days! :-)"
When the Scottish Sun does support us, then I shall read it. Until then it remains a squalid little rag.
"Actually, they brought forward the social housing spend from next financial year to this one to support the construction industry. That's why it's not there any more."
No, the SNP need to cut this because its either cutting this or cutting the 'national conversation'- and we all know that for the SNP investing in seperatism is more important than attempting to protect social housing budgets.
There is nothin to be ashamed of oldnat! Its just a matter of priorities, and if the SNP place independence before social housing thats fine- its a judgement for you. Why be ashamed of it and attempt to shy away from admitting independence is the most important thing to the SNP?
...or is independence a secondary issue for Salmond?
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166. Deanthetory.
In Scotland, the legal regulations which demand fair representation for all parties during an election are enforced and administered under Scots law. The remit of Scots law runs only in Scotland where there will be four main parties during the next election campaign. There is no such thing as British law, in Scotland there is only Scots law. The fact that there is also an election in England and Wales is irrelevant in Scots law.
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171. At 6:33pm on 02 Oct 2009, JRMacClure
This is a GE- deciding the future of the next UK government. Unless big Eck has changed his mind and purpose he's not going to form the next government, nor does he even want to try to.
Ergo- there is no cause to put him on a debate between leaders...unless you think people not wanting to be the next Govt of the UK should be in the debate to? If you feel that way, lets stick Katie Price on there too!
Sounds stupid, looks stupid, is stupid. Think again.
This is an election to decide the fate of the UK economy etc, not something to be used for SNP political capital. This is about peoples lives, jobs and futures, not about SNP popularity....something which has already taken a nose-dive recently.
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Interesting to see if Labour use up all their office and building assets in Scotland to fund the next UK campaign, then have nothing left for 2011.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6857706.ece
"Labour seeks local party assets to underwrite election campaign"
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180. At 6:59pm on 02 Oct 2009, InfrequentAllele wrote:
166. Deanthetory.
"In Scotland, the legal regulations which demand fair representation for all parties during an election are enforced and administered under Scots law. The remit of Scots law runs only in Scotland where there will be four main parties during the next election campaign. There is no such thing as British law, in Scotland there is only Scots law. The fact that there is also an election in England and Wales is irrelevant in Scots law."
1. I never said that there was such a thing as 'British law'.
2. Your attempts to continue to draw differences between the home nations of this fine Union is a blatant and naked attempt to fuel SNP seperatism. It won't work- your not fooling anyone anymore. Take a look at the polls- the young have abandoned the SNP, and now so is the bulk of the Scottish population.
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I'm far to polite to point the finger at the likes of Oldnat and Brownedov and say' HEY! come on tell the truth, honesty is the best form of policy.
Balkanism in Scotland Brownedov! Aye Rightski@...
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#181.
This is an election to decide the fate of the UK economy etc...
And in your system what decides that is MPs. Who are up for election in Scotland.
Unless you are telling me that Dave Cameron is up for election in Scotland. In which case, please tell me WHICH constituency will be voting for him.
As far as SNP popularity taking a nosedive I haven't seen any recent poll saying so, but this is about an important election not one party's or one person's popularity.
And you are saying that all local MPs who will actually do the VOTING on the fate of the UK economy don't count.
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181. deanthetory
"This is an election to decide the fate of the UK economy etc,"
So the Scottish, Welsh and NI economy are excluded from the debate! Sums up the unionist agenda.
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179. deanthetory
"When the Scottish Sun does support us, then I shall read it."
Tut Dean - you've forgotten the party line already! This is a UK election, and the Scots have no business putting their oar in.
But I see you are still the peddling the party line that increasing the IHT level encourages people to save. The current IHT limit for a couple is £650,000. People of my age (you don't think about IHT when you are struggling to put the kids through University!) with those kind of assets shouldn't be saving, but spending - either on themselves, or better still on their kids education and training, so that wealth circulates in the economy.
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#177. At 6:52pm on 02 Oct 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
'No one has ever explained why you spell the colo(u)r "grey" and the name "Gray" by the way'
I did, but you weren't listening; its because all the colour has been washed out of him :-))
...and that Edinburgh Evening News article certainly hasn't done him any favours either
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Maybe even more interesting to see if the SNP cant capture more blinkered people to fund their 2011 elections.
By then I would expect the SNP to be delighted to retreat, leaving behind a ruined state.
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Online Ed Here
The Scotsman are to shed 100 jobs I notice and move some facilities to Glasgow and Sunderland.
On the leaders debate and the claim that the SNP are a minor party in a UK context:
I would argue that the SNP are very far from being a minor party in a UK context as they form the Government of a constituent nation in this UK.
Their aim of independence for Scotland makes them a very significant party in a UK context given that they appear to be moving ever closer to realising that aim.
The rest of the UK outside of Scotland have every right to hear what Alex Salmond's views on the constitution are. Indeed the dynamic of the debate will transform dramatically with Salmond's presence with the non Scottish audience learning that Scotland has a very different political landscape to that of England.
It might also serve to educate the audience on matters such as the Barnett formula as well as allowing them to re-evaluate their currently held views on the Scots in general and the SNP in particular.
Remember also that an independence referendum is now all but certain but the result is anything but. The non Scottish audience absolutely need to know how David Cameron would cope without the North Sea revenue, Trident bases, Scottish electricity etc and what the effect on UK loan's would be without collateral such as the North Sea reserves to drive down the interest repayments.
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Deanthetory, all they're doing is willy-nilly copying the US system of having a one-on-one debate. The problem is that in the US when Obama debates McClain, I can actually VOTE for one of them.
I don't see why you can't see that this kind of debate needs to be changed for the UK where you have a different system than ours. Hardly anyone who watches such a debate will be able to vote for those men. Some adjustment needs to be made to the fact that what actually happens you YOUR country is local elections.
For that reason, LOCAL parties matter. Or else you are totally changing your country to OUR political system.
Do you really want to adopt the American system of government? REALLY?
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Picture this, Edinburgh votes in favour of Independence and Glasgow votes in favour of the status quo.Does Glasgow remain part of the union, while Edinburgh goes Independent.
The SNP and their guesstimates.
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#166 deanthetory
"Sorry but this is a UK general election, and the SNP are a minor party in a UK context ... We dont have major party's debating the Greens, UKIP, English Democrats, so why SNP?"
But as JRMacClure points out, this is not a presidential election but a parliamentary one, where every elector merely votes for his or her own MP, and in any event the "minor party" candidates do participate in the traditional candidates' hustings, of which you as a party activist must be aware. These debates will be a kind of "triple" election broadcast, and at the very least some adherence to the standards of the Broadcasters' Liaison Group should be expected, noting the the group publishes separate guidelines for each "home" nation.
Northern Ireland is perhaps a special case because only your "official" unionists have a "dog in that fight", but the announced arrangement is entirely inappropriate for both Scotland and Wales and even for England is arguably unfair to UKIP given their result in that nation in the recent euro elections.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#175 oldnat
I know Unionists may find this difficult, but once the money has been spent, you can't spend it again.
Tut, tut oldnat, you are forgetting the NuLabour branch of the Unionists are brassic but are still spending as though there is no tomorrow… they have simply rebadged debt as investment. But as we all know there is always a tomorrow….. Unfortunately this is who will pick up the tab for the debt NuLabour have created.
By the way brownedov are they the tweedlees or tweedledums?
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#188. At 7:21pm on 02 Oct 2009, Caledonian54 wrote:
#177. At 6:52pm on 02 Oct 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
'No one has ever explained why you spell the colo(u)r "grey" and the name "Gray" by the way'
I did, but you weren't listening; its because all the colour has been washed out of him :-))
...and that Edinburgh Evening News article certainly hasn't done him any favours either
My bad (as we say over here)! I'll try to listen more closely. ;-)
No, that article did him no good at all. Not if others laughed nearly as hard as I did. The talk about his purple tie and accosting women... did not give the appearance of a serious politician.
But I'm sure giggles can explain why he'll wipe the floor with the SNP who have, he says, taken a nosedive. I may have to take to snickering in response to his giggles but I'm afraid I'd annoy even myself.
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#169 raisethegame
Thanks for the excellent link.
#176 oldnat
"That's rather wicked from the Johnston Group!"
Quite so. I thought their closing put-down ever better: "And, if operation supermarket sweep does its job, they might even know just who the chap in the purple tie is."
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#166 deanthetory:
"No, No, No."
Yes, Yes, Yes.
You should talk to some of your lawyer friends and update your knowledge of case law in Scotland. It appears to be as lacking as your knowledge of constitutional law, that the English Act of Settlement 1701 applies directly in Scotland.
In 1995 on the 3rd of April an interim injunction was brought against the BBC to stop the broadcast of an interview with the then Prime Minister John Major on the 3rd of April in Scotland three days before the Scottish Local elections on the 6th of April. This was successful.
This does not mean that an injunction to stop the broadcast of a Lib-Dem/Tory/Labour only debate in Scotland would also be successful but it does prove that the legal mechanisms are in place to do it and the 1995 case does provide a legal precedent which is always useful.
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194. Roll_On_2010
Didn't see that one at the nuLab love in.
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#166 - "Nonsense. Sorry but this is a UK general election, and the SNP are a minor party in a UK context."
Sorry Dean, before you start pontificating, how about actually learning what Ofcom rules are and who Ofcom (and not you) define as a major party.
From Ofcom rules, section 6 covering elections and referendums:
"Meaning of “major party”:
At present in the UK major parties are the Conservative Party, the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats. In addition, major parties in Scotland and Wales respectively are the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru. The major parties in Northern Ireland are the Democratic Unionist Party, Sinn Fein, Social Democratic and Labour Party, and the Ulster Unionist Party"
As you can seem the SNP are defined by Ofcom as a major party and the only way broadcasters can avoid treating the SNP as a major party is by not broadcasting these debates in Scotland (or at all if that's not practicle).
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#199.
"Meaning of “major party”:
At present in the UK major parties are the Conservative Party, the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats. In addition, major parties in Scotland and Wales respectively are the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru. The major parties in Northern Ireland are the Democratic Unionist Party, Sinn Fein, Social Democratic and Labour Party, and the Ulster Unionist Party"
Thanks so much for that information. While my not knowing that is pretty excusable--I am after all naught but an ignorant American (I MUST trademark that phrase). However, one would expect a supposed activist such as Deanthetory to know the major parties in his own part of the world.
Deanthetory, I'm shocked. Surely you were not speaking with a forked tongue. ;-)
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199. ForteanJo
Thanks Section 6: Elections and Referendums
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187. At 7:19pm on 02 Oct 2009, oldnat wrote:
"179. deanthetory
"When the Scottish Sun does support us, then I shall read it."
Tut Dean - you've forgotten the party line already! This is a UK election, and the Scots have no business putting their oar in."
Tut tu oldnat- I never said the Scots have no business, just that Big Eck has no business! It seems your idea that your only Scottish if your SNP is revealled. I totally reject your assumptions. It doent compute at all.
And as for the landslide about ofcom rules- broadcasting rights etc, we are talking of a leadership debate that will not probably happen anyway- the problem of 'technical issues' always prevents the debates from happening. Its all guess work frankly, and Salmond has no right to be there, Clegg, Cameron and Brown- only. They represent the UKs' largest party's, Salmond represents a small single issue party' which only represents 6 Scottish seats.
There are issues concerning practicality, time contraints and plain common sense here, and no amount of cybernat spin and spivving can change the reality that:
1. it wont in all liklihood happen
2. SNP arent a large enough political party UK or even Scotland wide to merit having a representative present that the debate.
Sorry- but you can try and avoid an electoral meltdown for the SNP in 2010 all you want, but come that election you will find the MP for Perth and North Perthshire shall be Peter Lyburn, and there will be 8 other Scottish Conservative & Unionist MPs too (more than the SNP 7, which is all they will get electorally in GE 2010).
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Does anyone know when the ROI Lisbon Treaty/Constitution referendum results will be announced?
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192. At 7:26pm on 02 Oct 2009, giggletheloneranger
A good point Giggles [derek]- a very good one.
The SNP will be intent on dragging the country into seperation, even if half of Scotland dont want it!
The borders, Ayrshire, Renfrew - they will never vote independence ever. This is reflected in SNP weakness in these regions. The SNP propose that they all get forced into it. It is undemocratic.
If the referendum does happen there must be a rule which states that at least 60%+ vote for seperation before it happens. The rights of non-seperationist regions must be respected by the SNP and their creed.
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The broken SNP pledges to date:
Classrooms of 18 pupils or less
=Not delivered, Fiona Hyslop has launched the new SNP target of 25 pupils or less.
Abolition of student debt
=Broken, the average loan debt a Scottish Student will leave university with has risen to (a restrained) estimate of £20,000
Two extra hours of PE for every primary pupil
=Abandoned, but not forgotten by the betrayed parents up and down Scotland
The introduction of a Local Income Tax
=Dropped by Swinney, yet another flagship pledge broken by the SNP
£2000 first time buyers home owners grant
=Yes- thats right, its out too.
a 1000 extra police officers in Scotland, 480 in Strathclyde
=Strathclyde police is facing a reduction in actual police numbers, and will have to cut its budgets by huge amounts. Mor broken SNP manifesto promises
But don't worry Giggles, they still intend to push for the rigged referendum on breaking the country up!
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177. Oh ok then. There was a great deal of variation in English spelling until the late 17th century. Grey and gray were both variant spellings of the word until the 18th century, and both spellings were in widespread use. In the 18th century attempts were made to standardise and regulate the spelling of English, in order to "perfect" the language and make it fit for the full range of functions formerly enjoyed only by Latin. We owe our current standard spelling in large measure to the prescriptive grammarians of the Enlightenment. Grey became the preferred spelling in British English at this time, but the older spelling was retained in some surnames.
The USA owes the adoption of the spelling gray to Noah Webster who published the first English language dictionary in the USA. Webster was a bit of an enthusiast for simplified spelling, and wanted the language of the new US republic to be regulated according to logical principles. Since gray rhymes with day Webster felt it was best spelled gray. It was also due to Webster's influence that u was dropped in words like colour and honour. Another of Webster's innovations was the retention of single l and r at the end of some words when the -er or -ed endings are added, hence US traveler but UK traveller.
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#198 cynicalHighlander
#194 Roll_On_2010
Didn't see that one at the nuLab love in.
Not wishing to mix metaphors but I thought it was a wake….. in fact, at 7 months, it should go down on record as one of the longest wakes in history.
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181. deanthetory
and this Dean, is why the SNP are gaining in popularity, because of attitudes like this. Scotland as well as the North of England, Wales and Ireland pale into insignificance compared to Southern England , in regards to not just money, but having a say, being heard, its important to everyone.
Sure the SNP dont have a perfect record from being in charge :(so to speak as they often get blocked when it comes to the vote) but after 3 years they have done more things wrong than right.
Between Labour and the Conservatives they have had 90 years between then since the Liberal party and how many times have they been 100% perfect ?
no never
The conservatives blew it up here with thatcher and her cronies, they have had their chance, Labour have had even more chances and deceive their core support just to cling on to power, so what choice is there ?
The Liberals for some reason are seen as a not even worthy of a mention when the election chances are being talked about and I have yet to see a worthy plan from them.
So even if we step aside from the independence question for a moment , what does Scotland have to look forward to from a likely 2 or 3 terms of Conservative rule ?????
Read Winnie Ewings book, read about the crap she had to put up with and all the dirty tactics used against her by the Tories and Labour and she was the single SNP MP at the time, all I see is what they did now, multiplied more and more.
If you want to support the Tories up here fair enough, but tell the Tories and Labour to stop the sniping , stop the dirty tricks ,dirty politics , stop playing with peoples lives and come up with constructive alternatives instead of the mines bigger than your tripe we are dealt up with by them, the BBC the media and themselves everyday, because you know what , people may take them seriously, but at the moment they are all seen as spivs, conmen and liars.
So Labour, Libs and Tories, get behind the SNP and push for a better voice, better everything for Scotland, not a better pension and expenses claims for yourselves
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202. 2. SNP arent a large enough political party UK or even Scotland wide to merit having a representative present that the debate.
Ah but does Deanthetory make the rules? Methinks not.
SNP is defined as a major party in Scotland whether YOU like it or not. Guess they forgot to ask you? =)
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204. deanthetory
"The borders, Ayrshire, Renfrew - they will never vote independence ever."
Now you are being silly. Have you bothered to look at the data for North and East Ayrshire or Renfrew? Or are you so obsessed by those in expensive housing that you mean Ayr and East Renfrewshire?
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204. At 7:59pm on 02 Oct 2009, deanthetory wrote:
192. At 7:26pm on 02 Oct 2009, giggletheloneranger
A good point Giggles [derek]- a very good one.
The SNP will be intent on dragging the country into seperation, even if half of Scotland dont want it!
Haha! That is an excellent try at "we think we're losing so let's try to change the rules mid-game". Always a good gambit to try even though it never works.
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204. deanthetory
"If the referendum does happen there must be a rule which states that at least 60%+ vote for seperation before it happens. The rights of non-seperationist regions must be respected by the SNP and their creed."
Don't insult us dean or we'll get page 3 to take off the blue tassels.
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#194 Roll_On_2010
"By the way brownedov are they the tweedl[ed]ees or tweedledums?"
Yes.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#182 oldnat
"Labour seeks local party assets to underwrite election campaign" How much do you think the SNP would pay to keep Gray?
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183. Deanthetory
I know you never said there was such a thing as British law. I was simply reminding you of the fact as it has consequences you choose to ignore.
Drawing attention to this fact is not a naked and blatant attempt to fuel SNP separatism. It is simply the legal truth. Acts of the Westminster Parliament are administered and enforced in Scotland under Scots law. Some Scottish political parties may very well feel that under Scots law this debate will be illegal, and on the face of it they appear to have a strong case.
I do not speak on behalf of the SNP. Whether it is politically wise to try and prevent the debate being shown in Scotland is another matter entirely. However the SNP would certainly be remiss if it did not call attention to the dubious legality of the debate.
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# 204. At 7:59pm on 02 Oct 2009, deanthetory wrote:
"The borders, Ayrshire, Renfrew - they will never vote independence ever. This is reflected in SNP weakness in these regions. The SNP propose that they all get forced into it. It is undemocratic."
Ah, but this is the point of holding a referendum. Are Ayrshire and Renfrew really against independence or is the SNP's failure to do much there simply down to the old vote Labour because we've always voted Labour? A vote for or against independence isn't the same as voting in accordance with political/tribal loyalty.
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#205. Dean, honestly, you'd get more respect if you could manage to be honest.
a 1000 extra police officers in Scotland, 480 in Strathclyde
=Strathclyde police is facing a reduction in actual police numbers, and will have to cut its budgets by huge amounts. Mor broken SNP manifesto promises
As you know very well, the SNP did achieve the 1000 extra police officers. The Strathclyde budget woes are a rather weak attempt at distraction.
And WHEN AND WHERE did the SNP promise to achieve all of their goals within TWO YEARS in office? HMMMMM?
You know and I know that they didn't.
#206. Thanks for the explanation. Although I was aware of Webster's influence on our own side, I wasn't at all aware of how it played out on your side. Very interesting--to me anyway. Maybe totally boring to everyone else. (A reflection on my part of way too much time spent studying absolutely useless information and then writing about it lol)
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#217 JR
I hope your visit to our / Brian's blog is not A reflection on my part of way too much time spent studying absolutely useless information and then writing about it!
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I have a question for Deanthetory. Did David Cameron even realize that about a third of his "promises to Scotland" don't even APPLY to Scotland? He promises to "respect Scotland and devolution" and then makes promises that would have to make ANY thinking person doubt that.
Why? Doesn't this worry you at ALL as a Tory?
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dean, Brownedov and any other polling geeks.
2009 PoliticsHome Electoral Index (which I think is their detailed polling in the marginals) goes live at 7am tomorrow.
http://www.politicshome.com/
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185. At 7:10pm on 02 Oct 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
#181.
This is an election to decide the fate of the UK economy etc...
And in your system what decides that is MPs. Who are up for election in Scotland.
Unless you are telling me that Dave Cameron is up for election in Scotland. In which case, please tell me WHICH constituency will be voting for him.
As far as SNP popularity taking a nosedive I haven't seen any recent poll saying so, but this is about an important election not one party's or one person's popularity.
Ooh, not a good argument. During the last Scottish Parliament elections, all the SNP candidates came under "Alex Salmond for First Minister" party.
His popularity pulled in quite a few votes.
But you are right, the SNP popularity hasn't nosedived from what anyone can see, apart from dean. Independence popularity may not be as popular, but the SNP are probably the most favourable party in government up here.
208. At 8:10pm on 02 Oct 2009, romeplebian:
the reason that labour were in power up here for so long is that it took the SNP (and it's forerunners before I get hung) that long to get themselves organised.
......puts on crash helmet and jumps into foxhole.......
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217. JRMacClure
I think page 3 has given him TTT's (Throwing a Tory Tantrum) as he's losing the union argument if there ever was one.
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#204 Dean
If the referendum does happen there must be a rule which states that at least 60%+ vote for seperation before it happens. The rights of non-seperationist regions must be respected by the SNP and their creed.
Does this mean you are starting to realise that Call-me-Dave is shafted without Scotland's oil? You sound exactly like the Labour Party in 1974.
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218. At 8:30pm on 02 Oct 2009, handclapping wrote:
#217 JR
I hope your visit to our / Brian's blog is not A reflection on my part of way too much time spent studying absolutely useless information and then writing about it!
No, it isn't although I'm afraid you wouldn't believe the look of boredom that washes over my American friends' faces if I make the mistake of mentioning my interest in your politics.
I do this for fun in between the writing about the useless information stuff. It makes for amusing procrastination.
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Having watched FMQs yesterday I honestly cannot see where Sturgeon went wrong. She was very polished, not as entertaining as the great man himself but very formidable. Who was the Slab dumpling that she lanced at the end. No contest.
On the subject of debates and the GE, it is time that the SNP started attacking the notion that Brown is a candidate for PM. Brown is going to lose. On the many times that I heard Jim Sillars speak in Govan when he campaigned in 1988, he always used to pose the question: 'What will labour do when England votes tory?' - something I now think of as the 'Murphy Conundrum' in honour of the man to whom it is now posed.
It is clear to all that labour will lose, yet some voters engage in doublethink. The SNP must attack the notion that Brown can win - it must become a debate about who is best placed to defend Scotland's interest against the tories.
So when we hear that 'Salmond isn't going to be PM.' we should always reply 'But neither is Gordon'.
New Labour, Old Tory - a choice between Proven Failure and Potential Disaster
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205. deanthetory
"rigged referendum"
ooh get her!
The accusations are flying now!
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What a mess this SNP administration has put Scotland into.The SNP has underfunded all the 32 councils and caused havoc and discord among the Scottish peoples.Two years in and their already a discredited political force that have been found out and will most certainly be cast out.
In the name of common sense Oldnat, we the people compel you.
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These were the predictions from the 2008 Politics Home marginals survey.
Seat, Currently, Prediction
Dumfries and Galloway, LAB, CON GAIN
Edinburgh South West, LAB, LAB HOLD
Renfrewshire East, LAB, CON GAIN
Stirling, LAB, SNP GAIN
Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine, LDEM, LDEM HOLD
Argyll and Bute, LDEM, SNP GAIN
Berwickshire Roxburgh and Selkirk, LDEM, LDEM HOLD
Aberdeen North, LAB, SNP GAIN
Aberdeen South, LAB, SNP GAIN
Dunfermline and West Fife, (LAB), SNP GAIN
Edinburgh North and Leith, LAB, SNP GAIN
Edinburgh South, LAB, CON GAIN
Angus, SNP, SNP HOLD
Dundee East, SNP, SNP HOLD
Dundee West, (LAB), SNP GAIN
Kilmarnock & Loudoun, LAB, SNP GAIN
Moray, SNP, SNP HOLD
Ochil and South Perthshire, LAB, SNP GAIN
Perth and North Perthshire, SNP, SNP HOLD
If the same swing was repeated beyond the marginals polled the SNP would also gain Glenrothes, Midlothian, Linlithgow and Falkirk East, Lanark and Hamilton East, Paisley and Renfrewshire North, Edinburgh East, Ayrshire North and Arran and East Lothian
Tomorrow we find out how this has changed since last year.
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re 150 &151
If I missed some of your replies previously, sorry but some of have to work you know, I can't spend all day on here.
Re the substance of your point. I know it is a local management issue to get rid of poor teachers. It doesn't happen. However if the SNP have issues with Glasgow and the way they manage teachers, then surely Fiona Hyslop should so something. She is the responsible person for Education standards in Scotland, so take Glasgow council to task then.
I am all for local decision making and management but there needs to be a national standard in areas like education.
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dean
Nick Palmer MP (who Politics Home were trying to sell the data to for Labour - for the £30,000 your lot paid for it last time - notes that the polling was conducted when the UK Tory lead over Labour was 15%. It will be interesting to see the UK data fits with Scottish politics.
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#227 giggletheloneranger
What a mess this SNP administration has put Scotland into.The SNP has underfunded all the 32 councils and caused havoc and discord among the Scottish peoples.Two years in and their already a discredited political force that have been found out and will most certainly be cast out.
Derek whatever happen to this stash?
£144M Reserve
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#227 derek
Glad your feeling better. I can certainly lend a book, the emergency call button you wear round your neck will do for a bell and you'd better be sure you've got candles for when the last person to leave John Smith House turns out the lights. By bell, book and candle, begone, foul spirit!
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DeanTheTory:
Your logic is nonense. Scotland will decide the fate of Scotland, exactly in the same manner as Great Britain decided her Parliament, despite Scotland not voting for the Conservatives and Unionist Party we still are ruled by the group. Therefore your baseless rant that the SNP must respect the regions that vote in favour of independence is ridiculous. The people of Scotland will decide independence or to remain in the union. If regions happen to support the union (over 50 percent) then they will still follow Scotland into independence.
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229. northhighlander
I'll try and find what I posted on a previous thread and put it back up for you. (Not having to work is really rather good. I recommend it!)
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Besides Dean, I understand that David Cameron and the Conservatives have been at Westminister for sometime, have they managed to successfully bring in what they originally promised at the last elections?
Answer: No.
Please raise the standard of debate. It's childish, but hey, I can't wait for the Tory cuts, how will you defend Cameron then? Blame it on Labour?
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#221. Ooh, not a good argument. During the last Scottish Parliament elections, all the SNP candidates came under "Alex Salmond for First Minister" party.
His popularity pulled in quite a few votes.
But you are right, the SNP popularity hasn't nosedived from what anyone can see, apart from dean. Independence popularity may not be as popular, but the SNP are probably the most favourable party in government up here.
Watching your elections as an American, I do get it wrong at times, but I still think I have a point and I freely admit that.
Of course, the advertising will point toward a good leader (or try to smash up an unpopular one as I'm sure the Tories will attack Brown) in their advertising. After all, we're talking bout a potential PM or, in the case of Salmond, FM. The leader makes a difference and pulls in or loses votes. I'm not denying that.
But at the same time, you CAN NOT vote for this person unless they are the MP in your own constituency. This makes local affairs and the quality of the local candidate very important and makes the one-on-one debate pretty questionable in relevancy it seems to this outsider.
It does make including all political parties with standing MPs important. It's all very well for Deanthetory to say that they won't be PM.
But:
1. not only the PM counts I hope (or else why bother voting?)
2. is it ABSOLUTELY sure there will end up a majority government in Whitehall. It looks to be a good chance, but no certainty. In the case of a minority government, those smaller parties can be VERY important.
3. Only one will be PM anyway. So obviously not everyone will be PM. How does this relate?
Even Deanthetory came around to admitting that there are problems with debates. ;-)
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#231. At 8:58pm on 02 Oct 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
#227 giggletheloneranger
What a mess this SNP administration has put Scotland into.The SNP has underfunded all the 32 councils and caused havoc and discord among the Scottish peoples.Two years in and their already a discredited political force that have been found out and will most certainly be cast out.
I won't really get into this argument since I don't know many details about council funding, but pretending that all of this hasn't been affected by a global downturn is NOT going to convince people.
Everyone know that it has. Trying to blame a global economy on the SNP isn't working. You need a new tactic--especially in the face of the fact that most people over there seem to be blaming Labour. ;-)
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"Sacking bad teachers"
northhighlander especially (but others as well)
From the late 19th century until 2000, it wasn't possible to sack a teacher without a two thirds vote of the Education Committee. Hence few Directors of Education even tried, and incompetent teachers were simply shuffled from school to school, given few classes etc etc. It takes time to change management practice and a number of authorities provided no training of senior management in the required processes of employment law.
You should note that I use "incompetent" (which can be measured against the set of competences agreed by the GTC a few years back) as opposed to "bad" which is a value judgment that no tribunal would accept.
Few teachers are sacked for incompetence even in those schools and authorities that have a good track record of improving teaching standards. The reason is very simple. Once a teacher who is incompetent is identified, and the evidence for that determined; they go through a series of Verbal and Written warnings, which gives them the opportunity to bring their performance up to standard. Some improve, and that's fine. Others recognise the reality that they are not cut out for the job, and resign. Some go to the end of the disciplinary system, and then resign - usually on the advice of their Union, since that protects the pension they have earned to date.
Are their still incompetent teachers in Scotland's schools. Almost certainly. Why? Poor management at school and/or authority level. The process is time consuming, as it needs to be to avoid unfair treatment of employees.
Does Central Government carry any responsibility? Yes until 2000 - successive Tory and Labour Governments at Westminster simply never gave time to repealing antiquated legislation. Their post-war education legislation was ideologically determined.
As soon as we got our own Parliament, the matter was addressed - all credit to the then Lab-LD Government - and unanimously supported by all parties. Remaining prob;lems are entirely the responsibility of management at school and authority level. Elected Members getting involved in individual cases is totally inappropriate, and their role is limited to ensuring that the Director of Education does his job.
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Neil_Small147:
Where've you been, man?
I feel we need a person who remains on the fence. DeanTheTory has indicated that the regions which remain highly supportive of the union after the voting should remain in the union, you and I know thats not how it will work...
So please comment because at least we know you will not hold a petty political line.
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JRMacClure,
Please ignore Deans 'constituational rants. Although Alex Salmond would not become Prime Minister, it's not impossible. Thesedays the person leader of the largest group usually becomes Prime Minister but it's has changed from time to time.
Dean simply wishes to marginalise the Scottish National Party. It's easier to deal with a problem by pushing them off the stage instead of tackling them head on ;-)
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#182 oldnat
There is something satisfyingly symetrical about Labour's crashing the Labour party and everything that generations of my family worked for, with the way they have crashed 300 years of Union and everything that MagisterIgnoramus stands for. They donated to the Labour rooms New Labour want to flog. They held meetings and rallies to spread the word that together we could change the world for the better. New Labour had 12 years and produced the Minimum Wage. And the President of the EU and expensegate and Iraq and Afghanistan. Changed the world for the better ... that'll be right. Thank God, if she exists, for the SNP, otherwise I'd go crazy. Any room in your place, giggles?
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#237 JRMacClure
?????
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#240. At 9:22pm on 02 Oct 2009, Thomas_Porter wrote:
JRMacClure,
Please ignore Deans 'constituational rants.
Mostly I do since he seems to have an even vaguer idea of your constitution that I do. Strange. Or else he's deliberately misrepresenting his understanding? SURELY NOT! Would our Dean do that? ;-)
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Off topic but a gem of information I have not seen reported elsewhere, in this month's Focus magazine an article about the prospect of a European super grid which states that Scotland has aound 25% of Europe's potential wind wave and tidal energy, earning it the title of the Saudi Arabia of renewables.
And to think unionists claim we are too poor stupid etc to go it alone, not bad that a country with about a tenth of the UK population could have a quarter of Europes renewable energy.
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For Friday night fun, the following from Wikipedia. As I thought, the Office of PM is a somewhat vague notion. Almost another one of those fictions that Westminster does so well, like the notion of absolute sovereignty. In fact, since he is clearly the best candidate, there is nothing to stop QE2 from calling Eck and saying for Gawd's sake sort out my mess:
The United Kingdom's constitution, being uncodified and largely unwritten, makes no mention of a prime minister. Though it had de facto existed for centuries, its first mention in official state documents did not occur until the first decade of the twentieth century. Accordingly, it is often said "not to exist", indeed there are several instances of parliament declaring this to be the case. The prime minister sits in the cabinet solely by virtue of occupying another office, either First Lord of the Treasury (office in commission), or more rarely Chancellor of the Exchequer (the last of whom was Balfour in 1905).
Doesn't even need to be an MP.
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#232
Funclapping.
Ah, the local monk speaks and him! with such a silly haircut wants to distribute the Buckie to all the residents of his Independent legoland.
The hand that shocked a thousand locals?.
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#241handclapping
" Any room in your place, giggles?"
Always room to cleanse the unclean, even if they are immersed in 700 years notions of greatness.Come forward you pure soul and receive some sasparilla.
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Using dean's prognosis that the minor parties have no need to be included in the 3 party UK political debate, using that same reasoning that would restrict any debate in Scotland to the Labour, Lib Dems and SNP seems fair to me.
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#225 govanite
Spot on, particularly your "So when we hear that 'Salmond isn't going to be PM.' we should always reply 'But neither is Gordon'."
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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248. cynicalHighlander
The plan is for there to be 3 debates. It would seem reasonable (since it is a UK election) for all broadcasts to be seen throughout GB (NI should have its own). However, one should also include the SNP. one should include Plaid, and if the English have a 4th party then they should have a slot in the 3rd broadcast.
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#242. At 9:30pm on 02 Oct 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
#237 JRMacClure
?????
He was just saying the economic downturn was all the SNPs fault, and I pointed out this wasn't the case. Sorry for any confusion by including a reference to your comment. :-)
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Whey! here come oldnick and Brownepants.
Could it be some flatly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gHvATmUsSg
Is oldnatthe little one?.
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#244. At 9:32pm on 02 Oct 2009, peteraberdeenshire wrote:
Off topic but a gem of information I have not seen reported elsewhere, in this month's Focus magazine an article about the prospect of a European super grid which states that Scotland has aound 25% of Europe's potential wind wave and tidal energy, earning it the title of the Saudi Arabia of renewables.
And to think unionists claim we are too poor stupid etc to go it alone, not bad that a country with about a tenth of the UK population could have a quarter of Europes renewable energy.
Not off-topic at all. And let's not forget a fair slice of the non-renewables yet to be harvested are in Scottish territory and the profit will go into someone's purse.
WHY if Scotland is so wee, so stupid, and so poor is the UK so determined to hang onto it?
Question answered.
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#247. At 9:46pm on 02 Oct 2009, giggletheloneranger wrote:
#241handclapping
" Any room in your place, giggles?"
Always room to cleanse the unclean, even if they are immersed in 700 years notions of greatness.
Giggles, I think it is kind of Handclapping to volunteer for the job and try to cleanse you of the 700 year old notion that the "United Kingdom", or whichever name you want to put on the entity ruled from London, still runs the world. Whether it's possible or not is open to question since such outdated ideas can be difficult to root out. They make such pleasant delusions.
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250. oldnat
They plan 3 TV debates were the 3 main parties book there place plus 1 other. 1st debate goes so so, 2nd a bit more vibrant/disaster then 3rd debate.
How does one pick which minor party enters which fray because it then comes down to luck if your in the right place at the right time to be of any value. If you see what I am trying to get across.
Each debate isn't going to follow the same agenda each time and we all have strengths and weaknesses which could end up in a disaster for one or all the minor parties as the odds are stacked against them.
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239. At 9:18pm on 02 Oct 2009, Thomas_Porter wrote:
Neil_Small147:
Where've you been, man?
I feel we need a person who remains on the fence. DeanTheTory has indicated that the regions which remain highly supportive of the union after the voting should remain in the union, you and I know thats not how it will work...
So please comment because at least we know you will not hold a petty political line.
I'd love to know where dean gets his figures from. I don't think the "union" vote will be based on those: these people will vote for a change, not necessarily a desire for independence or the status quo.
This general election is about a need for a change of government, not a change of status. The desire for independence will likely rise, but I'd be cautious about saying there is a strong movement one way or the other.
My own high level "analysis" if you like, with no in depth evidence etc:
Aberdeen might cause some problems for either/both SNP and Lib Dems because of Trump.
Glasgow not good for some SNP because of the rail link cancellation, which will be highlighted by Labour.
Kilmarnock might be good for the SNP as Salmond appeared on the streets, but that might be detrimental for him in other regions with big closures and no sign of him.
But how on earth is Labour going to push their "message", when the Leader up here is hardly known?
I think the SNP will make considerable gains, especially at the expense of the Lib Dems.
The Conservatives might end up with three seats, no more. I cannot see how Cameron can possibly engage with people north of Watford.
Labour won't lose as many as projected but majorities will be decimated.
Much depends on what happens in the next six months however.
I expect the Labour campaign to be highly negative; Conservative campaign all flowery but irrelevant; SNP campaign will be like the Euro one and they will not utter the "I" word once; and the Lib Dems will give everyone an excuse to make a cup of tea.
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255. cynicalHighlander
I'm arguing for a fairer system within the dysfunctional UK. Were the debates to be organised fairly, then the debates including SNP or Plaid would need to focus on relevant issues for these nations. Trident is a UK issue that resonates strongly in Scotland, for example. Energy issues are another.
Of course, the Brits won't do anything democratically, so it's all theoretical.
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Online Ed Here
On Labour's increased fondness for intemperate language and smears, notably absent from the Scottish media, William Hague has written to David Milliband demanding several apologies.
The letter can be read in full by clicking here.
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256. At 10:56pm on 02 Oct 2009, Neil_Small147
"The Conservatives might end up with three seats, no more. I cannot see how Cameron can possibly engage with people north of Watford."
This is how we shall do it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6255782/Exclusive-TUC-boss-Brendan-Barber-to-speak-at-Conservative-party-conference.html
The General Secretary of the TUC attending (and speaking at) the tory conference!
Oh- and the new communitarian 'Red Tory' breed involving Richard Balfe, and "Phillip Blond, a fast-talking communitarian conservative refugee from academia, a GK Chesterton fan, and author of the forthcoming tome Red Tory"
If Cameron is good enough for the TUC he ought to be good enough for many parts of Northern England, and Scotland, Wales. The times, they are a'changing!
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Appears that the buzzards are circling UK PLC.
Cut NHS costs to pay off debt, IMF warns Britain.
Britain was served notice by the International Monetary Fund today that reforms to healthcare and pensions will be needed to repair the long-term damage to public finances caused by the global recession.
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#250 oldnat:
#255 cynicalHighlander:
Three televised debates in Scotland where the SNP only appear once puts the SNP at a big electoral disadvantage.
Under the scheme you mention, the Lib-Dems/Tories/Labour appear on Scottish TV three times but the SNP only get to appear once. All parties get to appear the same number of times on Scottish TV or not at all.
Since the Conservatives have formed a pact with the Ulster Unionist Party then the possibility of the Conservative Leader appearing three times in Northern Ireland on behalf of the UUP without the other parties getting more than one broadcast if at all will not go down well there with Sinn Féin, the SDLP or even the other Unionists parties.
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255. cynicalHighlander
I should have added - England only domestic issues would, of course, be restricted to the England only debate. If they want to double up the UK and English Parliaments, they should take the consequences. If it's a UK election, it shouldn't be polluted with narrow local issues in only one part of it.
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Online Ed Here
Early reports suggest that PoliticsHome are calculating SNP support up by 11 points from 2005. The swing from Labour to the SNP is put at 9.5 per cent. The polling ran from 11th Sept to 21st Sept, before Labour's conference.
Not sure to what extent marginals follow such strict trends but assuming the swing is uniform then it means an extra two seats for the SNP. Of course we all know that swings will vary from region to region, some greater and some less.
John Curtice has a piece in the Scotsman that simply predicts the two extra seats by assuming such a uniform swing. I expected a more sophisticated analysis from an expert in the field, for example the SNP might decide to concentrate resources on those marginals where they are within 7% of Labour.
Anyway, an 11% rise across the board is very much welcome news so soon after the Megrahi release and shows support still moving in the right direction.
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250. oldnat
"It would seem reasonable (since it is a UK election) for all broadcasts to be seen throughout GB (NI should have its own). However, one should also include the SNP..."
What is "reasonable" about any TV debate broadcast in Scotland which excludes the main political party in Scotland? Would you suggest that two of the broadcasts exclude the Conservatives? Or the British Labour Party?
I don't doubt that the unionists and the media will try to get away with this blatant bias. But I very much doubt if the courts will allow it.
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259. deanthetory
"The times, they are a'changing!"
That goes for unions too, if you think that the unions as a representative of the 'working man' are doing anything other than dimishing, you're mistaken. Any utility the conservatives gain from association with them will diminish the union's 'working class' associations further.
It's cute though - first the conservatives emasculate the unions, now they're going to try and cuddle them to death.
Communitarianism
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#263 online
The handclapping seat calculator gives C 3:L 32:LD 7:S 17 with Labour holding Stirling by 61 votes against the SNP
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263. U14094468
Swing is always difficult to deal with, other in an essentially 2 party system. Sounds like the poll will suggest what we might have guessed from previous polling. SNP and Labour at roughly the same level, LD loss and Tory rise. I'll wait to see how that plays out in the marginals.
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85 NORTHHIGHLANDER: You must be deeply upset that your children are going to school in a dump after 50 years of labour in Scotland. I know I would be.
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264. Electric Hermit
Because if the UK parties are seen to be giving different messages in the different parts of the UK (as they do) then that exposes them. Limiting the debate on English issues to the English broadcast (the only place where it is relevant) emphasises that their local issues affect only them. UK issues like defence, energy are valid subjects for debate in the non-English parts of the UK, and Plaid and the SNP are well capable of organising a common front on these.
We're stuck with the UK at the moment, but we need a better strategy to avoid the broadcasters and Brit parties, stealing the limelight, than simply demanding that the SNP and Plaid are involved in all 3 debates - which I don't think will work.
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262. oldnat
In all honesty its not going happen like that as the venom will be directed towards the SNP and Plaid no matter what, unless there is an unbiased ref who can put them in the sin bin when the line is crossed. Maybe I am too pessimistic but I can't see the minor parties getting a fair crack of the whip especially with the Beeb and their ignorance on the different regions devolved/legal issues. I suppose we'll just to wait and see what is being proposed.
Blowing a gale here time to hit the sack.
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Here is Curtice's article from the Scotsman.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/SNP-faces-lean-pickings-.5700799.jp
Tories up only 1% on 2005 (putting them at only 17%) at a time when the Tories were so far ahead of Labour across the UK, will be a big disappointment for Dean.
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#256. and the Lib Dems will give everyone an excuse to make a cup of tea.
Honestly, your elections are so much more amusing than ours. Our last one of watching Republicans foam at the mouth was enough to put one off dinner for life.
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The Guardian has a link to the Politics Home predicted electoral map after their 2009 poll.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/03/tories-lead-in-opinion-polls
I was surprised to see that they are now suggesting that the SNP will take Ming Campbell's Fife seat!
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#263 online
You don't know much about the "organisation" of the SNP. It is a one man and his dog outfit. A £million from one donor, they probably wouldn't know how to deal with. They can get a good show at bye-elections as their activists come from all over Scotland to help but in a GE they'll all be at home fighting for their local candidate. I reckon that any "extra" effort that they could rustle up for somewhere like Stirling would only amount to 200 votes, probably from giving up on Cumbernauld as Falkirk will be in a hammer and tongs scrap with Joyce.
They'd be better off telling half of their activists in Kirkcaldy + Cowdenbeath, assuming they have any as I still haven't had a scrap of paper from them, to go work in Glenrothes and have a photogenic young candidate in K+C to do lots of Press shots and get well honed phrases from HQ to spout to the radio and TV as they'll have to give some coverage to the SNP person opposing Global.
The other problem of course is where do you put this extra effort. Change the % by a fraction and you'd be kicking yourself that you didn't put it in Edinburgh North or Glasgow Central.
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#271 oldnat
Bad news for the SNP as well as the Torys. It means less gain to the SNP from the Tory tactical voters in the seats that are Lab:SNP fights. This brings the HEC result down to C 2:L 37:LD 7:SNP 13.
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269. oldnat
"...we need a better strategy to avoid the broadcasters and Brit parties, stealing the limelight, than simply demanding that the SNP and Plaid are involved in all 3 debates - which I don't think will work."
There is no way there can be a televised political debate broadcast in Scotland that excludes the SNP. There is no way the courts will tolerate such blatant bias.
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There should be no televised debate for the SNP- if they seek to destroy the country then thats all well and fine, why then do they seek a British platform to televise their seperatism?
Campaign, but dont give us your double standards.
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#273 oldnat
If the SNP are at 30% which they claim there is no way that is anything like a result. Moving the activists to Glenrothes would pay. Labour would hold by 61 votes otherwise. 30% SNP and HEC gives C 2:L 34:LD 7:S 16. Better wait and see what they really say as the LibDems could easily loose another two seats down to 5.
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276. Electric Hermit
I'm not as trusting as you that the courts will rule that way. I'd like to think they would, but we need a fallback position.
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I have to say that looks somewhat better for Labour and worse for the SNP than I would have expected and no gain for Tories. Interesting. We'll see how it plays out in the next 8 months and if Labour can hold on to that improved outlook in Scotland. I'm a bit skeptical considering that sustained attacks on Labour would be more likely to move votes to the SNP than Tories. But there is a long history of Scotland voting Labour so it's possible.
You can certainly see why Labour absolutely lays an egg at the thought of Scotland becoming independent. They would indeed have a hard time ever recovering--something else to think about.
Of course, none of this has much to do with Holyrood in 2011.
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274. handclapping
"You don't know much about the "organisation" of the SNP."
I sincerely hope it's not your "specialist subject". The other parties can only dream of being able to mobilise the kind of volunteer workforce the SNP can call on during any election campaign. It's a few years ago now, but the last time I was involved the SNP had more people making tea than all the other parties had in total.
Believe your own foolishness if it makes you feel better. But whatever uncertainties there may be about the outcome of the poll, there is no doubt whatever that the SNP will have all the money and manpower it needs.
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I still don't really believe the Politics Home predictor map. SNP winning Dundee West and Ochil & South Perthshire seemed likely. NE Fife? 2005 LD 52% : SNP (in 4th place 10%) Seems rubbish to me.
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#282. Polls during "silly season" are always iffy. I'd trust one more taken in a month a lot more, but if nothing else it will be sure that the SNP doesn't get over-confident.
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Re the Politics Home poll. It's worth remembering that YouGov (who did the polling) don't weight by likelihood to vote.
If the support for any party is soft, then turnout (and the party workers to get them out) could be critical.
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#277 ...if they seek to destroy the country...
Always interesting when someone's hatred and anger comes out. =)
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Seriously, although this is a large poll by a good organization, you have to take any poll during conferences/conventions with a large grain of salt. They should have waited a month. They would have gotten more reliable results. But it looks like Labour getting killed in England though.
Handclapping's estimates look more realistic to me, but we'll see. I expect if nothing else you'll keep the American interested.
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277. deanthetory
"Campaign, but dont give us your double standards."
Your enthusiasm for political censorship comes as no surprise at all. Fortunately, such anti-democratic extremism doesn't find much traction among decent people.
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279. oldnat
"I'm not as trusting as you that the courts will rule that way."
It is not possible for the courts to rule any other way. A party political broadcast in Scotland that excludes the SNP is no more feasible than one that excludes the Tories or the British Labour Party.
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288. Electric Hermit
"It is not possible for the courts to rule any other way."
I'm sure al-Megrahi's lawyers felt the same way. Never under-estimate the British Establishment!
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#281 Electric Hermit
The SNP only just staggered over the 15000 member mark, that's 250 per constituency. Average constituency 66000 voters, approx 45000 houses at 100 per hour per person thats 450 hours just to get one leaflet out or are they all going to take the 3 weeks off. If they are using the same Experian database as Labour then only about 1/3 of the houses have telephones registered so 30000 houses require door chapping at about 10 per hour, that's 3000 hours. You can do all that in a bye-election and the SNP do but when every one else is also busy its just the people in the local area and I dont think the SNP are strong enough everywhere to make the breakthrough at a GE. Even where they are strong in the North East they're not strong enough to offer assistance elsewhere. They may end up with 8000+ majorities but they'll be happy to have got them, whereas another 2000 in two other seats and a 4000 majority would give them 3 seats instead of one.
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290. handclapping
All that arithmetic. And still the SNP still has the largest and best organised campaign machine in Scotland.
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#290 Oh, come on handclapping. You mean they don't know to concentrate on likely or certain voters?
I don't know about you, but that's sure not how it's done over here. Trying to reach every body with breath is a waste of time, effort and money.
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I reckon Global will do anything he can to avoid a live debate.
He's obviously incapable of ad hoc responses relying on pre prepared questions with pre prepared answers.
The other panelists will tear him to shreds.
However, he might woo them over with that wonderful smile of his.
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#292 JRMacClure
I'm sure they do, but, if they haven't asked, they don't know who their likely voters are, and no one's asked me in the 3 years I've been here. A new name on the voters roll, someone should have been chapping on the door by now. They're lucky, I'll vote SNP without being asked.
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292. JRMacClure
"Oh, come on handclapping. You mean they don't know to concentrate on likely or certain voters? "
This stuff from handclapping is just some ritual unionist chant to drive away the fear. The SNP has as least as many members as the British Labour Party's North Britain branch. Probably a lot more money. And a very well-honed organisation. It is not the campaigning that the SNP need to be concerned about. It is the massive and quite blatant media bias.
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#291. At 01:59am on 03 Oct 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
290. handclapping
All that arithmetic. And still the SNP still has the largest and best organised campaign machine in Scotland.
I don't know a thing about the SNP campaign machine, but I suspect that there is SOME explanation for the SNP doing as well as it has in the face of unremitting hostility from newspapers and the BBC.
The most likely explanation is an effective campaign machine. Pardon if I doubt that it's happened by magic. ;-)
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#295. I haven't seen a lot of anti-SNP bias on handclapping's part so I'm not so sure of that. Although maybe I've missed it being an ignorant American (hmmm let's see if THAT works lol)
It looks like just a simple disagreement. I can see if he hasn't been contacted he might think that. On the other hand--it's early days for an election 8 months away. Not to mention, you haven't been contacted by them. Who HAVE you been contacted by? They may well buy such results from other organizations (depending on local laws, of course). =)
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296. JRMacClure
"The most likely explanation is an effective campaign machine."
Like I say, it is some years since I was active in any campaign. But I certainly remember the experience. Hard work. But a lot of good fun too.
As soon as the election was called local branches were suspended and everybody came under the direction of the constituency office. This was staffed every day with teams of people stuffing envelopes in a non-stop production line.
In the early evening dozens, sometimes scores of people would converge on the office to be assigned leafleting duty. If one area was short-handed then a "flying squad" would come to their aid in a fleet of cars and vans.
When we were not leafleting we would go doorstepping. Concentrating on areas where support was known to be weak, we would put on a show of strength. The aim was to knock every door in the area, with people working in pairs delivering a set message intended to reinforce the last leaflet drop as well as inviting questions and, in the last days of the campaign, asking people if they wanted transport to and from the polling place.
All the street activity had to cease by 21:00. Then it was back to the constituency office for refreshments and planning for the next day. As often as not followed by a visit to the pub.
I've almost talked myself into signing up for it again. If it wasn't for my bad knees....
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297. JRMacClure
"I haven't seen a lot of anti-SNP bias on handclapping's part so I'm not so sure of that."
I can only go by what I read.
And I have little patience with those who sit back and wait for somebody to attend them. I'm all for participatory democracy. Even if that participation amounts to nothing more than picking up the phone to request a leaflet, or filling in an online form.
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296. At 02:19am on 03 Oct 2009, JRMacClure
'I don't know a thing about the SNP campaign machine, but I suspect that there is SOME explanation for the SNP doing as well as it has in the face of unremitting hostility from newspapers and the BBC.'
There's an air of optimism in Scotland just now which I've never seen before.
The SNP are a breath of fresh air on the political scene whilst the opposition are offering nothing but scaremongering, lies and not a policy between them.
The labour party think they can sit back and let a hostile media do their dirty work for them.
Big mistake.
People are now aware that the labour party has deliberately trampled on Scotland to garner their traditional poverty vote and the people are saying 'no more'.
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#49, all I can say Dean is I hope for your sake you are well medicated come election night, yes Tories will sweep the board in England ... will be very surprised if they manage 3 in Scotland, they have no leaders with personality and no policies. Frankly it is scary to think that so many (in England) will still vote for that.
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#296 JRMacClure
Gee you have a really low opinion of us. Now we are so ignorant that we can't detect bias in the media. What's wrong with people thinking for themselves and deciding that the Union sucks? If I thought the SNP had a party machine like the ones I saw in action overseas I'd have them with 30 seats already but what I've seen here is Glasgow East and Glenrothes and the Euro's. Glasgow East great, Glenrothes ok, let down by the politics, the Euro's, virtually invisible. Any sign of work being done in the interim, nope. That's not a best organised campaigning machine in my book. Don't get carried away by the cybernat enthusiasm on this blog. Its boots on streets and get your people to the polls as matters in a GE and I've seen no sign that they've got it yet.
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#302. At 02:59am on 03 Oct 2009, handclapping wrote:
#296 JRMacClure
Gee you have a really low opinion of us. Now we are so ignorant that we can't detect bias in the media. What's wrong with people thinking for themselves and deciding that the Union sucks? If I thought the SNP had a party machine like the ones I saw in action overseas I'd have them with 30 seats already but what I've seen here is Glasgow East and Glenrothes and the Euro's. Glasgow East great, Glenrothes ok, let down by the politics, the Euro's, virtually invisible. Any sign of work being done in the interim, nope. That's not a best organised campaigning machine in my book. Don't get carried away by the cybernat enthusiasm on this blog. Its boots on streets and get your people to the polls as matters in a GE and I've seen no sign that they've got it yet.
Boots in the streets or at least fingers on the dials and someone running the websites, etc. are absolutely important. But didn't you just accuse ME of underestimating people--and yet you just admitted those things are important.
I am going by results. I don't think any party gets results without those boots on the streets you just mentioned. They've been winning some elections, hence they have boots on the streets.
You were the one who said it not me. So don't accuse me of insulting you. =)
It takes a lot of boots on the streets, as you say, for a GE. Do they have enough. I obviously don't know. There are a number of factors. In a way, I think the Tories will work FOR the SNP by massively attacking Labour in the coming months.
If the Tories peel votes off Labour in Scotland, they'll go to LibDems and SNP, not Tories I suspect. In what proportion? Interesting question. I think it will happen. How much with what result? I'll wait and see. The same with those boots on the streets. I believe you're underestimating them because I still say that you're right. They wouldn't have won elections without them but do they have the war chest and the numbers they need? Again, we'll see.
I've taken part in one or two elections over the years. I have a clue how they work, but the number of parties involved, intense dislike of Tories in Scotland, unpredictability of the swing and perceived extreme failure of Labour makes it an unusual situation.
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I knew I had seen something about this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/6249038/After-Gen-Andrew-Mackays-departure-will-the-Army-be-ousted-from-Edinburgh-Castle.html
The army leaving the Edinburgh Castle is not the point, of course.
This is: Soon, if not immediately, the two Scottish-based brigades in 2 Division of the Army — 51 Brigade at Stirling and 52 Brigade divided between Redford and Edinburgh Castle — will be reduced to one. The divisional HQ, at Craigiehall in Edinburgh, will be abandoned.
The Stirling-based brigade is expected to move to Redford, with 52 Brigade disappearing altogether.
I told Oldnat that I had seen something about a complete reorganization of the army in Scotland but was having trouble finding it. I think this article misses the point but it shows that I wasn't imagining that I read about a reorganization.
Information on this seems to be difficult to find for some reason.
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# 177 JRMacClure
The reason why we spell 'colour' in that way is because we know how to spell. ;-)
As to the name Gray I believe it is to differentiate between the name and the colour. According to 'Rumour Control' there was a story told that after the Jacobite rebellion had been crushed the MacDonalds, who were Catholics at that time and were hunted by the pro Hanovarians, had to escape. They knew that they would quickly be found out if they still used their name, MacDonald. They decided to change their name to colours and, that way, avoid detection. Hence this is how all those surnames appeared: Black, White, Grey, Green etc. Now I am quite confident that this is a total fabrication but I loved the story so much (my mother related this to me when I was just a bairn) that I've kept the story going. After all, why let the truth get in the way of a good story? One could say that my mother told a glenncampbelly good story.
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#305 JR dont listen to gedguy2 .. i'm sure the MacDonald story is true.. jeez next he will be telling us Santa Claus is not real ! Oops sorry Dean have i spoiled it for you ? BTW Dean the David Cameron action man figure is a figment of your imagination so keep it of the xmas list.
Re Scotland being the Saudi Arabia of Europe ... you would think Norway would have the same sort of renewables ie wind/ sea or is it too cold a country for that?
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#305. Well, I can understand the need for some way to tell the difference in grey the colour and Gray the MSP. (notice my exemplary spelling but don't expect it to last ;-) )
That's a good story whether true or not. Though one might worry about a mother being all glenncampbelly. She might go to work for BBC Scotland!
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Well, maybe Scotland can be the Saudi Arabia and Norway can be the Qatar. Sounds fair.
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On the list I have of those attained by Act of Parliament after the uprising of 45, there weren't Grays on it which I'm sure would relieve Mr. Gray mightily. Horrors to not be on good terms with the good folks to the south!
But maybe they didn't notice the name change.
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DeanTheTory:
#277.
"There should be no televised debate for the SNP- if they seek to destroy the country then thats all well and fine, why then do they seek a British platform to televise their seperatism?
Campaign, but dont give us your double standards."
Thank you for displaying such maturity. Of course, a child could point out that the SNP seek the peoples support for independence, so are you against democracy and the peoples will, Dean?
I am also suprised. How have you acheived the right to dictate who is British and who is not British? I am an SNP member but I still consider myself British (by default) and I would suspect much of the SNP officials and members also hold a British passport, so does that not suggest they are also British (by default)?
Besides are you also suggesting that since the SNP do not fight for seats outside Scotland that they should be criminalised for it, or should they fight for a seat in England under the SNP banner to be 'British' enough for you?
It's like the Conservatives. You can dress it how you like, but we know it's an English party ;-)
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Definately Alex Salmond should be in any televised UK debate, as i would say Scotland going it alone and whats left of the UK being deprived of much wealth is surely something that the little Englanders need to know about. Only thing is i'm sure Alex is wise enough to keep out non Scottish matters.
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215. Infrequent etc.
Actually, there is such a thing as British Law. That is to say, laws enacted by Westminster which have equal force throughout the UK without formal adoption by the separate legal systems. Here are some examples:- the Road Traffic Act, Official Secrets Act and for the purpose of this discussion the Representation of the Peoples Act. By way of distinguishing whether something constitutes British Law, ask yourself this simple question - is there such a thing as Road Traffic (Scotland) Act if there isn't it's British law.
Therefore as elections are conducted under the Representation of the Peoples Act, then all of it has equal force throughout the UK, the only exceptions being the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands which are treated as bailiwicks, i.e. they have the same legal standing as San Marino or Monaco. Which raises an interesting challenge to the SNP, just supposing that you get independence what will you do if East Renfrewshire, Ayr or Dumfries and Galloway seek bailiwick status?
Anyway, to return to my major point - Dean is actually correct, this is a UK election and those parties which have candidates standing in every seat are entitled under the act to have a televised debate throughout the UK (this would include Northern Ireland as the Ulster Unionists and DUP have formal links with the Conservative party and take the party whip and the SDLP have formal links with Labour Party). Therefore the SNP could join such a debate, but only by fielding candidates in every constituency.
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277. deanthetory
"There should be no televised debate for the SNP- if they seek to destroy the country then thats all well and fine, why then do they seek a British platform to televise their seperatism?
Campaign, but dont give us your double standards"
Thats pretty right wing for someone who 'claims' to be on the far left of the Tory party, Douglas Carsewell will be proud of you. pots and kettles.
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MagisterIlluminatus:
"Which raises an interesting challenge to the SNP, just supposing that you get independence what will you do if East Renfrewshire, Ayr or Dumfries and Galloway seek bailiwick status?"
I see more speculations and assumptions... Perhaps northern England will seek to become apart of an independent Scotland, why not?
Besides I do not believe that the areas with that type of status is not attached to the UK mainland. Therefore circumstances are different. Very different, indeed.
Let's not speculate and try to stay real people.
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the english democrat mayor has upset more people. think he needs to take some lessons from the snp on how to promote his party.
no314 we could get berwick and carlisle back. perhaps newcastle as well, always good for a night out.
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Politics Home poll
Changes since 2005 UK GE in brackets
SNP 30% (+11%) : Lab 25% (-8%) : Con 23% (+1) : LD 17% (-6%)
Polling in marginals suggests little change via FPTP. SNP gain Dundee West and Ochil & South Perthshire : Con gain Dumfries & Galloway : LD gain Edinburgh South.
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Online Ed Here
At the risk of incurring the wrath of dean I had better watch out how I phrase this.
It seems pretty clear that thus far only Unionists are advocating that the SNP be barred from taking part in the proposed televised debate.
Their reasons for suggesting vary but pretty much are along the lines that the SNP are a major party only in Scotland. That they simply don't want the SNP to be afforded the opportunity to state their case and answer any accusations that may be aimed at them pretty much sums up the anti-democratic/anti-free speech stance of their parties.
'magister' suggests that only parties who stand in all UK seats can demand to participate in any televised debate. Now, I don't know if this is actually the case, but assuming it is then only one party can claim that - the party who provided the Speaker. The other 'main' UK parties do not stand in the speakers seat.
Of course, I am merely being flippant, however regardless on political leanings it is surely right and proper that a party as significant as the SNP and who currently form the Scottish Government are represented in such debates.
Remember that there are very many non Scots who are pretty ignorant of what is going on in Scotland. It is also not beyond the realms of possibility that future Prime Ministers at Westminster will need to govern without the very many benefits that Scotland provides the UK - both in terms of finance and of course those of a strategic geographical nature.
It could be argued that there is far more chance of an independent Scotland happening than of Nick Clegg becoming PM - even of Gordon Brown remaining PM.
As a matter of fact, the SNP are actually the most significant party in British politics right now.
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# 315 barbarian9
You bring up a good point about Berwick. I've stated before that there should be no independence without Berwick; it is ours.
As to Carlisle and Newcastle, I seem to remember reading somewhere that that the geological boundary between Scotland and England is along Hadrian's wall.
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Democracy Index
UK comes 21st out of the 30 full democracies!
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# 307 JRMacClure
That's a good story whether true or not. Though one might worry about a mother being all glenncampbelly. She might go to work for BBC Scotland!
I hope not as they would have to dig her up first. Mind you, in that case, she would fit in well with the Labour zombeites at BBC Scotland.
# 306 ubinworryinmasheep
I apologise for saying those things about my mother. After all, everyone knows that mothers never tell lies to their children.
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318. gedguy2
And there should be no independence without Scotland Yard as it is clearly ours too. *titter, titter*
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CynicalHighlander:
Have you not noticed MagisterIlluminatus used history when describing Britain as a democracy? They made it clear, Britain is living in the past and unionists simply will never let go of the past.
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# 321 MagisterIlluminatus
I thought it would be beneath you to sink to the level of Derek. Obviously I was wrong. I believe there was a poll taken in Berwick (I believe it was done by the local newspaper, but I'm happy to be corrected on this) asking whether they wanted to be re-united with Scotland and the majority voted for re-unification.
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#321 Magister .. has giggle gone to bed and you've come out of your box ? Meanwhile Derek is tied up and not allowed near the pc !
#315 I'm sure Whitley Bay should be a part of Scotland too ;O)}
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Online Ed Here
Interesting when looking at the poll numbers you will notice that Labour are polling at pretty much the same level in Scotland as they are in England and Lib Dems polling slightly below their English level.
This kind of destroys the myth that Scotland is 'Labour' through and through, they are collapsing all over the UK. What is interesting though is that the Tories and the Lib Dems seem to be acting as a kind of buffer against the SNP dominating in Scotland, it's giving the impression of Labour being solid in Scotland when they are anything but.
The SNP could theoretically 'win' by ending up the largest party in Scotland in terms of votes but Labour still end up sending their MP's to represent us at Westminster.
A kind of double whammy if you like - Scotland rejects the Tories but they Govern us anyway. We also favour the SNP to 'fight our corner' but we still get Labour.
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#316 oldnat
There is something odd going on with the figures. If we plug the Politics Home 23:25:17:30 %s into Anthony Wells electoralcalculus he gets 8:25:11:15. If we plug them into my HEC its 5:18:8:28. OK take out the 19 they actually polled it still leaves the adjusted HEC on 2:24:11:22. I don't see how they can drop the Labour vote from 40% in 2005 to 25% and the LibDem from 23% to 17% without seats changing. If not Kilmarnock or Aberdeen then it will be Livingston and Falkirk.
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323. gedguy2
You are clearly someone suffering from a sense of humour bypass unlike the people of Berwick. The local newspaper ran the poll as a joke as even they admitted. Their paper circulates on both the Scottish and English sides of the river. In other words, a proportion of the people voting will already be living in Scotland.
Get over yourself for crying out loud.
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322. Thomas_Porter
Capitalist dictator?
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UK Polling Report
I have checked with Anthony Wells (who conducted the poll). There is a distinct methodological problem with both the 2008 and 2009 data, for Scotland.
Polling was conducted only in the 19 seats I listed in my #228, then that data was extrapolated to all of these marginals (and by implication to Scotland as a whole).
Unlike England (with more seats) the Scottish seats are not divided into seats with similar characteristics - where you can reasonably aggregate the small numbers in each constituency. Since the seats are so disparate in character, and some are 3 or 4 way marginals, the effect of extensive tactical voting and squeeze can't reasonably be transferred from one constituency to another.
Hence, for Scotland both the 2008 and 2009 predictions are (to use the technical term) mince.
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Further to my #326
A drop of 15% in the Labour vote is 350,000 staying home or looking for a new party. That is an omlette you can't make without breaking eggs.
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326. handclapping
Because the polls mean nothing. Scotland is a highly volatile voting area with pronounced regional differences which no general poll in the world can take account of.
For example, the Highlands and Islands consistently vote Lib. Dem and nothing suggests that is going alter, yet polls take no account of it. Why? because it is hard to carry out polling in a vast geographical area. Polling companies are like anyone else, they do their job where it is easy to do their job- the central belt.
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331. MagisterIlluminatus
You are of course wrong.
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332. oldnat
If I'm so wrong how come your posting at 329. actually agrees with me or have you forgotten what you wrote?
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#332 oldnat
A perfect example of how Duns Scotus becane dunce.
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#332 oldnat
There is of course the possibility that Lord A may not want any figures that could be used to appear. From the spread sheets it looks as if the actual polling intentions in the 19 marginals were 19:21:14:25.
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311. ubinworryinmasheep
"Only thing is i'm sure Alex is wise enough to keep out non Scottish matters."
What would be "non Scottish matters"? The proposed broadcast debates relate to the UK general election. Scotland is, for the time being, part of the UK. The outcome of this election affects Scotland as much as the rest of the UK. The SNP is fighting this election in exactly the same way as the other parties. So what topics should Alex Salmond avoid?
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#336 Electric Hermit ... well i'm not a super politiko but some things are devolved to Scotland like health, and law. Mind you, your right enough it is far to big a time to not allow Alex into the debate with so much to win or loose depending on whether your a unionist or not.
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333. MagisterIlluminatus
It doesn't. I haven't
You simply don't understand the methodology.
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336. Electric Hermit
"So what topics should Alex Salmond avoid?"
English, education, health, local government .........
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I'm to go and see a big blue giant who'll tow us away from the Union so I'm not to worry about the politics and come on now!
If only it was that simple.
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Looks like the vote in Ireland will be 2:1 Yes.
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312. MagisterIlluminatus
"Anyway, to return to my major point - Dean is actually correct, this is a UK election and those parties which have candidates standing in every seat are entitled under the act [Representation of the Peoples [sic] Act] to have a televised debate throughout the UK (this would include Northern Ireland as the Ulster Unionists and DUP have formal links with the Conservative party and take the party whip and the SDLP have formal links with Labour Party). Therefore the SNP could join such a debate, but only by fielding candidates in every constituency. "
With regard to Party Political Brodcasts (PPB)(which includes Party Election Broadcasts (PEB)), the relevant legislation is, in fact, Section 333 of the Communications Act 2003 (Party political broadcasts) and Section 108 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (Designation of organisations to whom assistance is available.), as well as The Ofcom Broadcasting Code 2008, Sections 5 & 6 and other legislation specified by this code.
The claim that the legislation requires that parties have "candidates standing in every seat" is false. The current requirement is one sixth of seats being contested. This does not apply to the SNP in any case, as it is regarded as a "main party" for the purposes of the regulations.
Having regard to the relevant legislation, and what it actually states, it is clear that excluding the SNP from a Party Political Broadcast in Scotland would breach both the spirit and the letter of the law. There can be little doubt that the courts would have no hesitation in granting an interdict to prevent such a breach. And we can be sure that the Broadcasters’ Liaison Group (BLG), who are charged with coordinating the criteria for PPBs, are well aware of this fact.
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339. oldnat
""So what topics should Alex Salmond avoid?"
English, education, health, local government ........."
Don't know what you mean by "English". But if you favour such restrictions on topics surely it should be the debate which is constrained, not the debaters. If it is a debate relating to a UK election then only issues having the same status across the UK should be discussed.
By your "rules", the debates could not touch on the constitution, for example.
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343. Electric Hermit
Sorry. The comma after "English" was a typo! I meant that he should reasonably not comment on English only matters - that's a decision for them.
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Oldnat ...actually thinking about it..even though some matters are devolved like health and education, they are still funded from what money Westminster gives us, so i guess Alex could have a say on practically everything.
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345. ubinworryinmasheep
"i guess Alex could have a say on practically everything. "
But it's politically cleverer to point out to the English that the SNP don't want to run the affairs of another country. Makes independence much more desirable.
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Although I like the idea, I do not believe these debates are fair. It'll be based in England and aimed at English voters, will we see anything aimed at the others parts of the United Kingdom? I doubt it.
If I wanted to listen to polititions discussing English matters I would watch past Conservative conferences.
I also believe for these debates to be credible that they should continue for hours, but I expect the max we shall see during one night will be for an hour or so.
Debates? Nice idea but will lack respresentation and will lack real depth in the discussions.
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#346 oldnat do you think that perhaps DC will allow us to have a referendum but let the rest of the UK in on it since it would affect them also ? Thinking about how the pro unionists might try to sell their choice to the others 'well a lot of revenue comes out of Scotland, so we need the union' oops before you know it more Scottish folks want independence. Or is the referendum purely a choice for the Scots ?
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If the SNP are to be included in a live tv debate - which I agree with - then all other "serious" parties should be included, including the other nationlist parties, the BNP and UKIP.
I can't see any reason why not, and it might put the larger parties on the spot a bit, considering the smaller ones are more inclinded to ask direct questions.
It should be in the same format as QT, with the politicians totally unaware what questions will be raised. Good politicians can deal with those, rather than the stage-managed guff we get at PMQs.
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348. ubinworryinmasheep
"do you think that perhaps DC will allow us to have a referendum but let the rest of the UK in on it since it would affect them also ?"
Wouldn't put it past him!
On the other hand, he may have noted that the World Bank is about to run out of cash
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/6255816/World-Bank-could-run-out-of-money-within-12-months.html
and decide he's not going to risk the oil revenues!
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Online Ed Here
If, out of the blue a new party called the English Independence Party decided to stand in every English seat and garnered only half of the percentage Engliah vote that the SNP are expected to gather of the Scottish vote then they would automatically become a 'main' party.
The definition of 'main' in the context of this 'TV Debate' discussion is pretty much dependent on a party's impact in England. When Jim Murphy called the SNP a sideshow, he was only partly correct. In broadcasting terms Scotland is the sideshow because England dominates.
The really sad thing is the behaviour of Scottish Unionists, they are willing to enforce a democratic deficit on Scotland for short term gain; i.e. preserving the Union.
However, what happens in years to come if one or other of the Unionist parties severs ties with the London HQ and becomes a fully fledged independent Scottish entity; are they too to be barred?
In that situation Scotland could find itself pretty much absent from any so called 'national' debate, a mute who observes from the sidelines. The BBC and indeed SKY must not be allowed to set this very dangerous precedent.
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#350 'The Bank, whose job it is to support low-income countries' what erm like Scotland ;O)}
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344. oldnat
"Sorry. The comma after "English" was a typo! I meant that he should reasonably not comment on English only matters - that's a decision for them."
If it is a UK election-related broadcast then surely, by the terms of your own argument, "English only matters" should be excluded. You seem pefectly happy for supposedly "Scottish only matters" to be excluded. Or is it that you are happy for matters relating to Scotland to be debated in the absence of the SNP? Surely this is what the unionists are arguing for.
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346. oldnat
"But it's politically cleverer to point out to the English that the SNP don't want to run the affairs of another country. Makes independence much more desirable."
And just how does Salmond do this if he is excluded from the debate?
And if you are concerned about the messages being sent what sort of impression does it give if the leader of the main party is prohibited from participating?
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If only 3 parties are allowed in England then obviously the broadcasters have used a cut off point of some description and will only take the top 3.
To be fair the same criteria should therefore be applied to Scotland and only the top 3 parties should be allowed to participate.
Failing that everyone should be given a platform as suggested by Neil Small@349.
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353. Electric Hermit
Scottish-only matters are nothing to with a UK election! The only reason that we have to put up with all the English guff is because Labour concatenated the English and UK Parliaments.
We're really not in great disagreement you know. I'm being light-hearted about it because I don't think the debates will ever happen. Brown is simply posturing and dithering. He won't ever accept a format which doesn't allow him to give lectures. The others won't let that happen.
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I think Gray just wants to have a debate with Alex Salmond on tv so that more people in Scotland get to know who he is before he gets the chop. In my opinion Alex would get more sense out of Dougal from Father Ted. Iain (2 i's no spine) make sure and wear that purple tie.
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312. MagisterIlluminatus
"just supposing that you get independence what will you do if East Renfrewshire, Ayr or Dumfries and Galloway seek bailiwick status?"
Supposin', supposin',
two wee men were frozen
wan died
hoo minny were left?
How many times will this divisive claptrap be repeated, before the silly, billy brigade grow another brain cell? It's been applied to every nook and cranny in Scotland. How soon can we expect similar suppositions concerning the deplorable States of Springburn, Possil and Milton or just the general State of Deprivation and Decay that is the reality for a great many people in a land seldom visited by pompous prats and tittering tw@ts?
All this talk of imaginary breakaways and Scotland divided should act as a constant reminder that the real separatists amongst us are those who set people against each other to further their own political ends. If you've ever read anything on in-groups and out-groups in a society then you'll understand what's been going on since Methuselah was a boy. Divide and rule!
I don't know why these guisers bother to dress up differently when all of them sing the same old song!
I can get by without the next instalment on life, the universe and social housing from delusional dumplings who wouldn't have passed exams set for eleven-year-olds of my generation but manage to find places at university to study, of all things, politics! Just what we need - a fresh crop of Tory turnips!
Unfortunately, political pornographers like the giggler, maggiesbarevoluminousarsus and therorytoryborntaeboreye, et al, can't be ignored. The only consolation is that blogging isn't a contact sport.
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356. oldnat
"Scottish-only matters are nothing to with a UK election! The only reason that we have to put up with all the English guff is because Labour concatenated the English and UK Parliaments."
This doesn't alter the fact that, if the debates take the format being suggested, there will be two PPBs in Scotland which exclude the main political party in Scotland.
I don't see anything to be "light-hearted" about here. Whether the debates actually go ahead or not is irrelevant. we have to work on the assumption that they will. So the case for the SNP's inclusion/exclusion has to be argued anyway.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6254413/Scottish-Labour-going-nowhere-fast-after-party-conference.html
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#359 Electric Hermit ... what we need is a debate about whether there should be a debate !
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8288424.stm
Gordon caves on tv debates (realizing he has nothing to lose). However, the imbecile is insisting on time spent on foreign affairs and the economy ... little realizing these are actually his two weakest suits (well other than appearing to be a human being).
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361. ubinworryinmasheep
"Electric Hermit ... what we need is a debate about whether there should be a debate !"
According to the news (PM agrees to TV election debate) that question is settled. What we are engaged in now is discussion of the format of that debate. Principally, which parties should and should not be represented.
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#304 - Hi JM, looks as if HM Army is getting ready (in advance) for Scottish independence. Nice of them to streamline the org and reduce costs ahead of the game for a change.
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358. albamac
great stuff!
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Electric Hermit:
#363.
"Principally, which parties should and should not be represented."
I am not prepared to dismiss other groups, or what defence would I have if they came to dismiss me?
I'd say groups who have political representation on some level or another should be allowed, with each debate lasting for most of the day in order for individuals to go into depth.
I'm not afraid of democracy, but true democracy scares the hell out of everyone else ;-)
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362. pattymkirkwood
"However, the imbecile is insisting on time spent on foreign affairs and the economy"
He is urgently trying to limit the debates in a way that will justify excluding Alex Salmond.
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Electric Hermit:
#367.
Alex Salmond remains a Member of Parliament, therefore Alex Salmond remains apart of the Scottish National Party at Westminister.
The Scottish National Party, as well as other so-called minor parties have policies concerning foreign affairs, Economy etc
It's never going to be acceptable reason to exclude the Scottish National Party and other groups on the basis of lack of representation or mainly because the party does not stand for election at every seat within the United Kingdom.
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359. Electric Hermit
OK. If the idea of debates goes ahead, then there's no chance of getting much out of the broadcasting agreement. That's a set up by the UK parties in their own interests.
The case needs to be argued in the Court of Session based on the EHCR Article 3
Right to free elections
"The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature." (my emphasis)
Note that "the European Court of Human Rights has emphasised that the Convention is a living document and must be interpreted in the light of changing attitudes and values in society generally." and that "Judges will have to take account of the Convention in deciding cases." (both quotations from "Human Rights in Scotland" - Scottish Office 1998)
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If Global wants to succeed in this debate, come across as more lively, interesting and animated than he really is , avoid the difficult questions, minimize the creepy jaw flex and avoid that weird random grimace, he could send his waxwork from Mme Tussauds instead.
Sarah could even introduce her hero with a few words, a tin of pledge and a duster.
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#367 I blame the Americans ! Gordon and for that matter the tv companies only know what goes on in American tv debates where you only have 2 partys... only thing is that here in the UK there are 4 important partys (I wont include the others BNP/UKIP as they have virtually no support up here in Scotland), only thing is 3 of them may as well be the same party and the other is the SNP.
#362 Imbecile ...patty thats a bit harsh ... admittedly he is the kind of person only a mother could love but imbecile.
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360. pattymkirkwood
Thanks for the link. It's interesting that Cochrane has changed stance from being anti-SNP on everything to the more balanced commentary that he used to give on Scottish politics.
Of course, he's right that the critical question is whether voters here want to replicate the "Feeble Fifty" of the Thatcher years, or ensure there is a significant SNP presence.
However, he is wrong to assume that the Labour winner in last week's Doon Valley by-election was right. "There the new Labour councillor, Moira Pirie, attributed her success to local people’s “fury” at the way the SNP council are running local services."
Labour were always going to win that seat, but there was a swing from Labour to the SNP in it.
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Good point on Political betting from NoOffenceAlan
"The sample of Scottish seats included in the PH poll is much more Conservative (22% in 2005) than Scotland as a whole (16% in 2005). So it should be a good indicator of Tory prospects in Scotland i.e. not particularly great."
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367. Electric Hermit
"I'd say groups who have political representation on some level or another should be allowed, with each debate lasting for most of the day in order for individuals to go into depth."
You seem to be determined to find a way of getting Nick "The Slug" Griffin onto the platform. Not that this would trouble me at all. In fact, I'd be delighted if he was allowed every opportunity to reveal the true nature of the political obscenity he leads. But I have no great problem with the current rules on qualifying parties. Rules which just happen to exclude the neo-Nazis.
The problems with the format of the proposed TV debates is that they are an entirely new form of PPB. Normally these give chunks of airtime to individual parties for their exclusive use. The TV debates force parties to share the same airtime. While it is a simple matter to allow lots of parties chunks of local, regional, national or UK-wide airtime in accordance with some formula, it is not possible to do this when the parties are sharing the same chunk of airtime.
Including all the parties is not feasible. The task of moderation would be rendered impossible. Ideally, a debate should involve two parties. Certainly no more than three. What would work would be some kind of round-robin format in which every leader faced every other leader in a series of short debates. Assuming 8 parties, this would require a total of 28 debates. Rather a lot, admittedly, but bear in mind that because there are only two participants the debates could quite easily be limited to twenty minutes. This is actually ideal because people would be much more likely to watch a short debate. While nobody on the planet would watch one that went on all day.
These twenty minute debates - possibly carefully edited down to a condensed version at ten or twelve minutes - could very easily be repeated on various channels at different times and be made available in different formats, podcasts, YouTube etc, further increasing the possibility that they would be seen by significant numbers of people.
There is huge potential in this idea. Both in terms of good TV and in terms of participatory politics. But I suspect it is just a bit too imaginative for either our broadcasters or our politicians.
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369. oldnat
"The case needs to be argued in the Court of Session based on the EHCR Article 3
Right to free elections"
I don't doubt that, if push comes to shove, that is exactly what will happen.
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# 327 MagisterIlluminatus
Obviously you haven't bothered to check up on this story as you would have pointed out that I was wrong in my assumption of the local paper; it was a poll done by ITV here and here.
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#374 Electric Hermit i think any debate with Gordon in it would probably only last 3 minutes by which time he would have exploded in a fit of rage.
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377. ubinworryinmasheep
"Electric Hermit i think any debate with Gordon in it would probably only last 3 minutes by which time he would have exploded in a fit of rage."
That's what I call good TV!
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#370 lol thats the funniest thing i've read all day.
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It seems to me that the question is whether the SNP (and possibly other parties) are going to take legal action to force inclusion in a debate. At the least, legal action would bring attention to the issue.
Has anyone heard anything at all about this? The news media as usual has its head stuck somewhere the sun doesn't shine and isn't actually giving information besides what it's hand fed.
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Electric Hermit:
#374.
"You seem to be determined to find a way of getting Nick "The Slug" Griffin onto the platform. Not that this would trouble me at all. In fact, I'd be delighted if he was allowed every opportunity to reveal the true nature of the political obscenity he leads. But I have no great problem with the current rules on qualifying parties. Rules which just happen to exclude the neo-Nazis."
Democratic rights extend to all British citizens, including legal political groups. I do believe the British National Party to be allowed the same rights and privilages as other political groups do, but so long as the crowd does not behave like animals I would expect the British National Party to come out damaged, but not defeated (for now).
"The problems with the format of the proposed TV debates is that they are an entirely new form of PPB. Normally these give chunks of airtime to individual parties for their exclusive use. The TV debates force parties to share the same airtime. While it is a simple matter to allow lots of parties chunks of local, regional, national or UK-wide airtime in accordance with some formula, it is not possible to do this when the parties are sharing the same chunk of airtime."
I don't believe sharing airtime will pose a problem. The debates in the US is quite civilised and gives an honest platform where leaders can be judged on their answers instead of PM Question Time, where the standard drops by a considerable amount.
"There is huge potential in this idea. Both in terms of good TV and in terms of participatory politics. But I suspect it is just a bit too imaginative for either our broadcasters or our politicians."
I do not like the idea of 20 minute debates. It can quickly become another version of Question Time, would you trust our polititions to deliver qaulity or quickly create cheap punch lines?
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#377. At 4:54pm on 03 Oct 2009, ubinworryinmasheep wrote:
#374 Electric Hermit i think any debate with Gordon in it would probably only last 3 minutes by which time he would have exploded in a fit of rage.
His tendancy to give the appearance of a two-year-old in a temper tantrum is a bit of a disadvantage. It's hard to see how the man is going to gain by a debate.
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382. JRMacClure
"It's hard to see how the man is going to gain by a debate."
He'd gain as much as Palin did in the Veep debate1 That was fun to watch.
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374. Electric Hermit
"Assuming 8 parties, this would require a total of 28 debates."
I assume somebody will ask how I arrive at 8 parties. It was only intended to be an illustrative figure. But, in fact, it is probably about right. The question is one of how parties qualify.
We could take a broad approach that would have the advantage of providing a common set of rules for all PPBs no matter what election they related to. To do this we might take as our qualifying criterion representation in any of the five principal representative bodies,
This would embrace a 18 parties (assuming no opt-outs) and require 153 separate debates.
Alternatively, we could stipulate that, for a UK general election-related broadcast, only representation in the UK parliament counts. This would mean a total of 11 parties (assuming no opt-outs) and 65 debates. (With a "ghost" party included at the top of the list to make this an even number and the last party on the list being given a bye in the first round.)
Extending the "franchise" to the Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly would bring in the Greens and obviate the need for a bye match.
Another method would be to use vote share at the last relevant election as the criterion. Taking the top 8 - in line with my earlier figure - this would involve the following parties in a series of 28 debates,
Adopting a threshold of 0.5% of the popular vote instead of taking the top 8 would add 4 more parties to the above list and take us back up to 66 debates. The additional parties would be,
I believe there is some scope there for discussion.
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JRMacClure:
The Conservative and Unionist Party would be forced to explain their policies instead of constantly attacking Labour, plus David Cameron may also have to explain their policy over Europe and Scotland.
Besides Labour appears to be leading to defeat, so what can be lost from a debate?
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381. Thomas_Porter
"The debates in the US is quite civilised and gives an honest platform where leaders can be judged on their answers..."
The debates in the US involve only two participants. That is not possible in the UK other than by adopting the round-robin format suggested.
"I do not like the idea of 20 minute debates. It can quickly become another version of Question Time, would you trust our polititions to deliver qaulity or quickly create cheap punch lines?"
Twenty minutes, shared between two participants, is plenty of time to make a brief opening statement and respond to three or four substantive points. Any more would actually reduce the quality by allowing the participants time to wander from the point and indulge in speechifying.
Remember also that this is TV we are talking about. Less is more. You could allow the debaters to talk for as long as they want. But after a couple of minutes they would be talking only to their most devoted followers. Everybody else would be channel-hopping or fetching a beer from the fridge.
In the realm of communication, constraints are constructive.
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#383 Truthfully, I don't think that's a great comparison. In a way, I see David Cameron as closer to Palin than Brown is. After all, no one ever accused Palin of being ugly or making funny faces. I do believe, however, that Cameron probably has a higher IQ. Whether he will actually be a better leader (and the thought of the UK going back to being led by a Etonian boy's-club), I honestly don't think I can bring myself to comment on.
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387. JRMacClure
Oh well. Maybe you'll agree with this one.
While searching the Treaty of Union for something which could be misinterpreted to stop an SNP free debate I was reminded of
"That during the continuance of the Duty payable in England on Malt, .... Scotland shall not be charged with that Duty."
So when you are over here your Bowmore would be tax free! Only drinkers of blends would be penalised (serve them right) :-)
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#388. Oh, NO tax on good whisky (note: THAT I know how to spell ;-) )
I like it!
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If it is truly a series of debates, then, like QT, why can't they do a roadshow around the country? In this way any debates in Wales should include Plaid, any debates in Scotland the SNP, and any debates in England can incude UKIP and the BNP. Any debates hld in N.I. would probably not include any of the 'main' parties anyway.
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The nats have gone all American over their frenzy to be involved in a TV debate.It's a national party that wants separation, why does it want to involve it's self in a UK debate? and what good would it do for any perspective voter to listen to someone like Alex Salmond promise the earth and deliver nothing.(I think everyone has had enough of the lies)
giggle..giggle..giggle
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#390. If, as he claims, David Cameron is going to treat Scotland AND its government with respect then he should want the SNP included.
However, I consider that IF statement a rather large if. I'll have to see it to believe it.
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390. ScotInNotts
"If it is truly a series of debates, then, like QT, why can't they do a roadshow around the country?"
This is almost certainly feasible. But the location surely cannot be the sole determining factor in relation to participants. There have to be more formal criteria.
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It's nice to see the ole myth stay alive. At Nick Robinson's blog we bare witness to Nautonier (#76) claiming that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are subsidised, of course I see no evidence to back up his/her claims.
The benefit of the union; Scotland offers people power to Great Britain. The sole reason a Government would seek to undermine the ability of her territory is to ensure a future supply of labour. It's quite clever as we witness a generation of 'under class' within our society, we ask ourselves why it exists? For the wealth of Great Britain and our power on the international stage, why are we incapable of basic standards? Is it done on purpose or apart of a master plan? Education was an escape route but even our instituations are being undermined as we see wave upon wave of children leaving universites and remain unemployed.
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382. At 5:12pm on 03 Oct 2009, JRMacClure wrote:
#377. At 4:54pm on 03 Oct 2009, ubinworryinmasheep wrote:
#374 Electric Hermit i think any debate with Gordon in it would probably only last 3 minutes by which time he would have exploded in a fit of rage.
His tendancy to give the appearance of a two-year-old in a temper tantrum is a bit of a disadvantage. It's hard to see how the man is going to gain by a debate.
Nick Clegg DID lose his temper in a tv debate. That to me is not a trait to be seen in a political leader. If he loses his rag during a simple debate, how would he cope when dealing with a difficult diplomatic situation? And opponents would be looking to exploit what they would see as a weakness.
Quietly spoken comments carry more weight than a scream.
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391. giggletheloneranger
"The nats have gone all American over their frenzy to be involved in a TV debate.It's a national party that wants separation, why does it want to involve it's self in a UK debate?"
Not quite grasped the issue, have you. You come across as more CBeebies than BBC Parliament.
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#391. It's a national party that wants separation, why does it want to involve it's self in a UK debate?
Because it IS in fact the governing party in one of the nations that MAKES UP the UK? Surely that couldn't have anything to do with it. Because it has members who are in fact part of the UK Parliament? What? Surely THAT can't have anything to do with it.
Stating that because they support independence, that they should somehow pretend that independence now exists is the height of hypocrisy on your part. People who actually support democracy also support the people's right to be heard through their elected representatives and to hear their representatives opinions in order to vote wisely.
The fact that you do not support that says everything that needs to be said about you.
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#393 ElectricHermit
I would have thought location played a large part i.e. where a party was fielding it's candidates.
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395. Neil_Small147
"Quietly spoken comments carry more weight than a scream."
Hmm! I don't remember Ian Duncan Smith's comments carrying much weight.
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I've been out today and will try to post a couple of responses shortly, but surprised nobody has mentioned the SNP news release: Scotland must be part of TV debates.
IMO, Hosie is absolutely right in saying "The broadcasters must meet their obligations to audiences across the UK – and that means that any debates broadcast in Scotland must include Alex Salmond, and other relevant spokespeople should there also be subject debates. We shall be approaching the broadcasters to demand such guarantees, given their clear public service obligations to ensure fairness and impartiality in election-related coverage in Scotland."
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Neil_Small147:
#395.
"Nick Clegg DID lose his temper in a tv debate. That to me is not a trait to be seen in a political leader. If he loses his rag during a simple debate, how would he cope when dealing with a difficult diplomatic situation? And opponents would be looking to exploit what they would see as a weakness.
Quietly spoken comments carry more weight than a scream."
I disagree slightly. If the person can express their displeasure from a simple loss of temper into a passionate expression, where the person can force the room to listen and to also hold high ground on the matter then I consider that a strong candidate.
The silent approach can only be successful against an idiot as it clearly shows you toying with the person and that the person lacks basic knowledge of the subject.
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Online Ed Here
I've created an online poll form in order to gauge opinion on whether Salmond should be included in the leaders debates or not.
I'll post the question and link within the next couple of days. The reason for the delay is I've decided to let non political anoraks first bite as it were.
Keep a look out for it - Newsnet Scotland subscribers will receive it in their mail boxes around the same time.
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#312 MagisterIlluminatus
"Actually, there is such a thing as British Law. That is to say, laws enacted by Westminster which have equal force throughout the UK"
That would be UK law then, but there are indeed some such in the ramshackle polity which makes up the UK of GB and NI. There are also some which appliy just to the island of Great Britain and others which apply to most imaginable combinations of the "home" nations.
"Therefore as elections are conducted under the Representation of the Peoples Act, then all of it has equal force throughout the UK"
Close, but no cigar. There are indeed a number of Representation of the People Acts, many of which have not been formally repealed and some of which are valid UK-wide, of which the latest is the Representation of the People Act 2000 plus later amendments. However, what they do not deal with is election broadcasting.
The HoC library produced a short PDF on Party Election Broadcasts in February 2009, which should be the first hit here. It makes clear that for general elections since 2001 :
"Some broadcasters, notably BBC1, BBC2 and ITV, are able to split transmissions between the constituent parts of the UK. In such circumstances, a party needed to field candidates in one-sixth of the seats of that part in order to qualify for a PEB there.
Those broadcasters which do not fully split their signals between nations (Channel 4, Channel 5, BBC Radio 4, BBC Radio 2 and the three national commercial radio stations) offered UK-wide broadcasts to Labour, Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, SNP and Plaid Cymru."
As there has been no new leglislation covering the subject and unless Westmidden passes a new law PDQ, it would appear that the next general election will be contested on the same basis. That said, the Stormont government may well have a valid complaint that neither of the governing parties there [DUP & SF] are considered "major" parties while their "official" unionist opponents are now in a public alliance with the tory party, with campaigning on a state-wide basis.
#342 Electric Hermit
Excellent summary, but I do believe its only the HoC library paper I refer to which spells out that for general elections the UK has five "major" parties.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Online Ed Here
Fellow posters, be carefull not to be drawn into flaming with trolls. Someone earlier used the phrase 'political pornography' and it was very apt.
It can be very tempting to respond to inflammatory comments, it's usually better to resist - starved of reaction, they usually disappear.
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#329 oldnat
"UK Polling Report ... Hence, for Scotland both the 2008 and 2009 predictions are (to use the technical term) mince."
Thanks for that. Just goes to show I should have done my own homework better this time last year.
#335 handclapping
"From the spread sheets it looks as if the actual polling intentions in the 19 marginals were 19:21:14:25."
That's certainly more believable in the seats polled. Probably worth calculating the actual swings and extrapolating them nationwide.
I haven't had the chance to download the info today but will attempt to carry out just that analysis over the next day or so.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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I hear the murph wants to be part of debate in Scotland, can someone not whisper in is ear that it's the leaders of political parties and not their hired stooges.
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398. ScotInNotts
"I would have thought location played a large part i.e. where a party was fielding it's candidates. "
It's TV. What matters is where it is broadcast to, not where it is broadcast from. And the SNP may only field candidates in Scotland, but they are standing for election to the UK parliament.
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400. Brownedov
How dare you be out, when there was a major poll published! :-)
Though it turned out to be pretty mince in its methodology.
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A new chapter in the Megrahi debate opens with the Scottish judiciary defending themselves and BBC Scotland's website listing alongside it articles declared as 'the latest', the first of which is dated 21 September 2009. A bit of a stretch of credibility.
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400. Brownedov
"I've been out today and will try to post a couple of responses shortly, but surprised nobody has mentioned the SNP news release: Scotland must be part of TV debates."
This is merely reiterating the SNP's oft-stated stance on the issue. It is interesting to not poor Annabel Goldie's daft response to a previous call by Alex Salmond for democratic fairness.
“The sheer nerve and arrogance of Alex Salmond is breathtaking, even by his standards. The next General Election is to decide the next UK Government - Alex Salmond and the SNP have no chance of forming that government."
Excuse me, Auntie Bella, but Nick Clegg and the LibDems have no chance of forming that government either. And her wee Tory clique has no chance of forming a government in Scotland. Does that mean that she is displaying "nerve and arrogance" in expecting to get PPBs?
To think Goldie used to be one of the most respected people in Scottish politics. Look at her now! That's what she gets for consorting with the British Labour Party's pantomime horse at Holyrood - Gray and Foulkes.
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399. At 7:01pm on 03 Oct 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
395. Neil_Small147
"Quietly spoken comments carry more weight than a scream."
Hmm! I don't remember Ian Duncan Smith's comments carrying much weight.
Oops, forgot about him. What was it he said? "never underestimate a quiet man" or something like that.
Still, IDS is like Ian Gray on steroids........
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403. Brownedov
"Excellent summary, but I do believe its only the HoC library paper I refer to which spells out that for general elections the UK has five "major" parties."
I actually had seen that document, but did not refer to it because direct links to PDFs are not permitted here. Simply didn't occur to me to link to the Google results. It certainly spells out the position more clearly than the legislation from which it is derived. But will the combined weight of all this documented authority dissuade the unionists from insisting on political censorship? I doubt it!
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#407 Electric Hermit :
"It's TV. What matters is where it is broadcast to, not where it is broadcast from. And the SNP may only field candidates in Scotland, but they are standing for election to the UK parliament."
Exactly, so it hardly makes sense to broadcast a debate containing the SNP campaigning for election to the UK parliament to regions where no-one can elect an SNP candidate i.e. any debate the SNP takes part in should only be shown in Scotland, Plaid Wales etc.
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411. Neil_Small147
"Still, IDS is like Ian Gray on steroids........"
Credit where it is due. The work of the Centre for Social Justice deserves respect. Ian Duncan Smith deserves recognition for this. They've both done very well!
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#407 Electic Hermit
"The broadcasters must meet their obligations to audiences across the UK – and that means that any debates broadcast in Scotland must include Alex Salmond, and other relevant spokespeople should there also be subject debates. We shall be approaching the broadcasters to demand such guarantees, given their clear public service obligations to ensure fairness and impartiality in election-related coverage in Scotland."
"It would be entirely unacceptable for the leader of a party not just represented at Westminster but which is also the Government of Scotland to be excluded from any such debates."
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#396 Kermit
" Not quite grasped the issue, have you. You come across as more CBeebies than BBC Parliament."
What tosh and piffle you put forward Kermit, grasp what? that a nationalist party puts members into a parliament they want nothing to do with? hardly fighting their stance there, still it gives the leader of the nationalist party another wage! Ho Hum!.
If you want to sound of, then try and do so with a better perspective than your partial unethical tripe from a distant place?.
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Electric Hermit!
Whats your tipple here, your English nationalist behaviour is just a thorn in the side of common sense.You see here, we know how to look people like you in the eye! and your not fooling us.
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312. MagisterIlluminatus
Actually, there is such a thing as British Law. That is to say, laws enacted by Westminster which have equal force throughout the UK
Actually, no.
The separateness and independence of the Scottish legal system was, as we all know, guaranteed by the Treaty of Union. Laws which have equal force throughout the UK have legal force in Scotland only by virtue of the fact that they have been adopted into the body of Scots Law. Scots Law is concerned with the application of the law within Scotland and only within Scotland, not elsewhere. In any potential court case, the judge would have to examine the question of the fairness of the debate within the area of his or her remit. The remit of Scots Law and the authority of Scottish judges is confined to Scotland.
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#404. At 7:17pm on 03 Oct 2009, U14094468 wrote:
Online Ed Here
Fellow posters, be carefull not to be drawn into flaming with trolls. Someone earlier used the phrase 'political pornography' and it was very apt.
It can be very tempting to respond to inflammatory comments, it's usually better to resist - starved of reaction, they usually disappear.
And excellent point. I've been tempted into responding at times myself, knowing better as I did it. ;-)
Learning to not respond to trolls is a bit like learning to give up chocolate--but it's SO tempting.
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#413
That any debate in which the SNP is not included DOES NOT get shown in Scotland.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
TheLoneRanger:
#416.
It's past 8, you should be in bed asleep child.
Lesson One:
A political group can not place members into the Westminster Parliament. The people vote for a candidate who has decided to put themselves forward to represent the area in which they live. The candidate usually lists policies and the public votes based on which candidate offers the most suitable policies.
Lesson Two:
Scotland remains politically/financially linked to the United Kingdom; therefore parties who have independence policies must also take their policy to Westminster Parliament as whatever else takes place at this Parliament, will have a knock on effect to Scotland. For example, although the Scottish National Party seeks independence for Scotland, unless they are willing to participate in the political process the chances are very slim of their aims actually happening.
Lesson Three:
There is no rule stating that an individual can not be a member of both the London and Scottish Parliament at the same time. However rules state that the individual must accept their MP salary and 1/3 of their MSP salary. Alex Salmond, leader of the Scottish National Party happens to be a member of both Parliaments and willingly donates his MSP salary to charity. Alex Salmond must have major support and be well liked in order to become elected as an MP and MSP, it is democracy for you.
Lesson is over for today. Please raise the game a little or at least offer something new.
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#419
MacClueless and the bourne ultimatum.
Paranoid again! gung ho!.
Why not make a constructive post about your support to better Scotland?.
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#416 - "that a nationalist party puts members into a parliament they want nothing to do with? hardly fighting their stance there, still it gives the leader of the nationalist party another wage! Ho Hum!."
Sounds like you're advocating armed revolt instead. Yet another sign of how desperate the unionists are these days.
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#140 Salmondella.
No.
Check John Swinney's office as I said. OR the offce of the Finance Secretary at the Scottish Parliament.
They will give you chapter and verse
If you want to debate don't just make silly remarks.
There is no point in responding if you have no response to make.
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#420 sneckedagain
"That any debate in which the SNP is not included DOES NOT get shown in Scotland."
That would seem reasonable, as any issues pertaining to Scotland should have been discussed during the debates held with the SNP involved.
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#422
Thomas, in all fairness that makes no sense at all, give it up Tom?.
giggle..giggle..giggle.
"Alex Salmond, leader of the Scottish National Party happens to be a member of both Parliaments and willingly donates his MSP salary to charity. "
What utter tosh Tom, give it up, look at what your printing?.
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Had to laugh at the comment regarding that any debate with the SNP involved, should only be shown in Scotland.
Is that in the same way that English International football games are shown in Scotland and the Scottish ones are not.
Or is this a suggestion that there are never any Scottish people in England that can vote in Scotland.
I don't know, I'am confused.
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#422. ...it is democracy for you....
Darn it. There you go bringing up that darn "democracy" thing again where how people vote is actually supposed to matter.
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#424 forteanJo
" Sounds like you're advocating armed revolt instead. Yet another sign of how desperate the unionists are these days"
Now! Now! stop getting excited.
Look, the union will continue and all the nats have done is to help deliver another conservative government. same old..same old.
And the little general will take his lordship and ride off into the peer ship of obscurity. (with his three pensions)
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#422. Thomas_Porter, thanks for the very accurate information. I wasn't aware of it and a little research showed you to be correct.
2. Remunerated employment, office, profession etc
Member of the Scottish Parliament for Gordon. Annual salary £18,461. As a sitting Member of the House of Commons I receive one third of the MSP salary. Since 4 May 2007, I have been paying that gross salary to a charitable trust.)
First Minister of Scotland. Annual salary £80,224, carrying out the duties of the First Minister of Scotland.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/alex_salmond/banff_and_buchan
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A related article on pay increases:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/msps-not-asked-to-take-pay-cuts-like-holyrood-ministers-1.906519
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TheLoneRanger:
#427.
I shall break it down, hopefully your simple mind will understand.
You stated something about nationalist parties placing officials into the UK Parliament. That's nonesense. The people elected this officials during the general elections.
Scotland is apart of the United Kingdom. So, why should nationalist parties not (if successfully elected) go to Westminster? How else can they acheive their aims?
Last but not least, is there a rule against being an MP and MSP at the same time? No!
Do you understand? I could draw pictures and hopefully you manage to understand.
You certainly reinforce my view on British society. Perhaps you should read what I wrote several days ago concerning members of the public ;-)
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#431JR
" Annual salary £18,461. As a sitting Member of the House of Commons"
Giggle..giggle..giggle, just a young American comment.
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#430 - "Look, the union will continue and all the nats have done is to help deliver another conservative government. same old..same old."
And here I thought that was Bust Gordon's job. But if you're so sure the Union will continue, you can rest easy, you've achieved your goal. You can leave the rest of us to debate the consequences of your victory.
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JRMacClure:
#429.
"Darn it. There you go bringing up that darn "democracy" thing again where how people vote is actually supposed to matter."
Your vote matters, after you've been manipulated by either the media or groups which are backed by large amounts of money...
Doesn't the USA Telecommunications Act put major control into few media services limiting what Americans know of the outside world and also limits how the outside world is veiwed by Americans which makes it easier to manipulate public opinion? :-o
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205
Strong stuff from dean who has decided obviously to abandon his thoughful mode and decide his future lies with the incessant drivel from giggle and his like. Well at least we know now where he really stands.
However I could point out that the LIT proposals were delayed because they were not getting through parliament not because the SNP has abandoned them. LIT will be a central plank of the SNP's next Scottish parliament campaign.
There are in fact 1000 extra Police officers on the streets of Scotland - more than two years early.
Fiona Hyslop has NOT abandoned the SNP aim on class sizes reduction. She is introducing a legal requirement to push them below 25 which is different thing. (That of course was an unfulfilled Labour commitment )
Scottish class a sizes are at their lowest ever level.(fact)
The £2000 first time home buyers allowance has been abandoned. It was daft and insignificant anyway and has been replaced by other measures.
The SNP has cancelled Tuition Fees to the significant benefit of Scottish students but in presnt circumstanaces of a budget contracting in real terms there is no way it can fulfil its intention to pay of student debt. Maybe if we had an oil fund.....
However I'm a old fogey that doesn't believe student loans should have been introduced anyway. I did my degree and teacher training on a very
small grant and working four of five nights per week and all my holidays.
|Actually the easily accessed student loans are I believe a large part of the reason we have have a serious imbalance and too may people in tertiary academic education).
However I have been away for a couple of days and must catch up.
Apart from a coupls of meetings and some street work I've been canvassing voters in a fairly large town in this constituency. Between horizontal showers of hailstones I talked to the residents in 19 homes in a tidy scheme. With other teams out we got contact in just short of 100 homes but all the results are not collated yet. I found the day intersting to say the least. In my 19 we met one committed Tory, three committed SNP and one who was still swithering on LibDem. Virtually all the rest profesewd themselves to be labour but only ONE agreed she was intending to vote Labour. Five were vehement never again ! Six of the nineteen agreed they would vote for independence in a referendum, four said they would not and the rest didn't know (or I suspect couldn't care less)
My overwhelming impression was that we are looking at a lot less than 50% turn out at the next election in Labour areas!
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#434. Which relates to your accusation that he doesn't donate his MSP salary to charity--HOW?
Oh, right. It doesn't.
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#433
Thomas, perhaps you should look a little closer, your clearly deluded and
somewhat perplexed.Why dont you stop the ugly remarks.You see, I understand that your confused and young and just looking for someone to trust in you.Thomas, drop the politics and go and grasp some real life.
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413. ScotInNotts
"Exactly, so it hardly makes sense to broadcast a debate containing the SNP campaigning for election to the UK parliament to regions where no-one can elect an SNP candidate..."
But that is not the issue. The issue is the SNP being denied participation in a PPB which is broadcast in Scotland. In fact, under current proposals, two such broadcasts.
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Some background info on the General Election broadcasting rules.
Under Section 333 of the Communications Act 2003 the regulation of party election broadcasts comes under OFCOM.
The relevant section of the OFCOM regulations is Section 6: Elections and Referendums
There is also a HOC Standard Note, Party Election Broadcasts, SN/PC/03354 on electoral broadcasting. (This is a google link as it's a pdf. It should be the first link on the top of the google page) Section 4 in this gives a lot of information on how the rules were applied in 2001.
There is a big problem with applying these regulations because they are all concerned with individual Party Election Broadcasts. They are not written to cope with three different parties in the same broadcast and how this applies across the UK where in Scotland and Wales the SNP and PC are also regarded as major parties under the regulations.
The idea of a UK wide broadcast with only three parties represented in Scotland will probably run slap bang up against the guiding principle of section 6 of the OFCOM regulations which is written in at the start.
"To ensure that the special impartiality requirements in the Communications Act 2003 and other legislation relating to broadcasting on elections and referendums, are applied at the time of elections and referendums."
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I re-wrote my paragraph.
Doesn't the USA Telecommunications Act put major media control into few individuals/groups limiting what Americans know of the outside world and also limits how the outside world is veiwed by Americans which makes it easier to manipulate public opinion? :-o
It should make more sense now.
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#436. At 9:17pm on 03 Oct 2009, Thomas_Porter wrote:
JRMacClure:
#429.
"Darn it. There you go bringing up that darn "democracy" thing again where how people vote is actually supposed to matter."
Your vote matters, after you've been manipulated by either the media or groups which are backed by large amounts of money...
Doesn't the USA Telecommunications Act put major control into few media services limiting what Americans know of the outside world and also limits how the outside world is veiwed by Americans which makes it easier to manipulate public opinion? :-o
Tsk. Tsk. There you go again implying the USA is not perfect! For shame!
Actually, of course, it is very difficult to control what people know of the outside world IF people care to learn. It's the caring to learn that's the problem--and one might well ask if Americans do. Oops. Now I implied we might not be perfect. Oh, noes!
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#440 Electric Hermit
I'm sure I had been advocating the SNP's participation in the said debates, sorry PPB's. I merely put forward some stipulations that I thought sounded reasonable (also agreeing with snecked's suggestion #420) and perhaps acceptable to all those concerned.
I'm not exactly sure what it is you find incorrect or objectionable with my previous posts?
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TheLoneRanger:
#439.
"Thomas, perhaps you should look a little closer, your clearly deluded and
somewhat perplexed.Why dont you stop the ugly remarks.You see, I understand that your confused and young and just looking for someone to trust in you.Thomas, drop the politics and go and grasp some real life."
I am nice to those who I see as my equal. You have not disputed what I wrote, questioned what I wrote or contributed to the issues at hand. You appear to be another troll, or an under educated child attempting to show off what they learnt in modern studies.
However you have caught my interest. Perhaps you'd be so kind to define 'real life'? You'd finally answer the question that sociologists have attenpted to answer for decades.
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I forgot to include this in comment #441
The BBC is not regulated by OFCOM. It has its own Principles of political impartiality and I've no idea how Sky is regulated. S4C is regulated by the Welsh Authority.
The OFCOM regs apply to:
ITV1, Channel 4 and Five, and the national commercial radio services talkSPORT, Virgin AM and Classic FM.
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#442. I thought your meaning was quite clear. Unfortunately, your conclusion is also correct. Obviously, it is possible for an INTERESTED populace to learn much more than what a controlled media intends. The problem in the US, to be perfectly honest, is that most people really are convinced that we run the world and that what other people do doesn't matter.
The total ignorance of the majority (mind, I'm only saying the majority--there are also concerned and knowledgeable Americans) of Americans about what goes on in the rest of the world is truly frightening. But I do blame Americans ourselves and not our media. There are peoples in the world who FIGHT for the right to knowledge. We don't.
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420. At 8:29pm on 03 Oct 2009, sneckedagain wrote:
#413
That any debate in which the SNP is not included DOES NOT get shown in Scotland
The Wiltshire Under-11 Young Conservatives Annual Debating Competition semi finals...........
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Minor spat or big deal rift?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6860234.ece
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On LIT, since someone has mentioned it (just to keep things moving here, since it will come up on debates):
Under the current LIT proposals I will pay less than my council tax - wayhey! However, I will pay more than my neighbour, yet we both have the same size of family and use the same services. My question would be why should I pay more? I understand that a few doors down there is a retired couple who should be paying less.
It is a question that many will raise.
Will all due respect to the *ahem* elder ones here, how was the old rates like?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
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An amusing analysis: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/martin_ivens/article6860201.ece
Suffice to say in its aftermath, Mandelson accused the newspaper’s management of being “a bunch of chumps” — in his sanitised account of the conversation. Those who have crossed swords with the Prince of Darkness might think that a bit rich coming from the mother of all “chumps” himself...
Oh, dearie me. I don't think they like him.
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On a dispassionate view 'giggle' does not contribute in a positive way.
Actually he/it/she (?) contributes in a malevolent fashion by posting in a contrary fashion and in fact taunting other contributers to the blog as to their age or intelligence or political allegiance.
That 'giggle' seems opposed to the establishment of a country - Scotland - independent of - England - suggests that Scotland ( however it is established ) would be a better and nicer country without he/it/she (?)
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449. JRMacClure
I suspect this is just Boris positioning himself to become Tory leader, if Cameron is incompetent enough to lose the election.
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450. Neil_Small147
"Will all due respect to the *ahem* elder ones here, how was the old rates like?"
"More mature" is a much nicer phrase.
Pretty much like the Council Tax - that's why we got it from the Official Tories, and why it's supported by the Provos.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#455. Isn't that a highly unlikely outcome? Or would being forced to a minority government be considered a loss? Even that isn't highly likely but surely still within the realm of possibility.
Is Cameron possibly that incompetent? I don't much like the man (Etonian pretty boys with a history of being in thuggish clubs and supporting apartheid JUST do not impress me) but he doesn't strike me as out-right stupid.
I think the only halfway HUMAN thing he's ever been known to do is smoking pot. LOL
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#427 giggletheloneranger
Alex Salmomd, as stated, gives his MSP salary to charity.
The only tosh comes from you.
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455. oldnat
"I suspect this is just Boris positioning himself to become Tory leader, if Cameron is incompetent enough to lose the election."
And if Cameron wins, to remind him that the actual conservative party still have agendas which must be addressed. Boris is easliy one of the most dangerous conservative politicians.
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Oops. It's Saturday night there and the moderators went out for a few wee tots. ;-)
I hope they're drinking something good and not the cheap stuff.
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#450 Neil
The old rent and rates were a time when the majority lived in council homes and worked generally in the same industries (BMC, THE PITS)the funny thing was, in those days a miner or BMC worker would earn slightly more than a police-officer or nurse.
In today's world the man that packs beans on the supermarket shelf, is as likely to own his own homes as is the general GP.
The most defining thing in Thatcher's career was to introduce the poll-tax. Salmond wants to emulate Thatcher by creating his new form of tax(LIT)if LIT ever does come to light, do you think it will be as planned?.
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457. oldnat
I realise why my post was referred. I was commenting on the cumbersome "he/she" construction that pro-loco was using. The easier (and more politically correct) construction is "s/he".
My error was in adding pro loco's "it" to that.
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'I'm Harriet Harman - you know where you can get me...' What Minister allegedly told witness after crashing into parked car
"Harriet Harman is being investigated by police after allegedly leaving the scene of an accident in which she drove into a parked car while talking on her mobile phone."
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458. JRMacClure
Unlikely yes, but by no means impossible. A hung parliament (old joke - they should be) is a possibility - especially if UKIP siphon off some votes from them in England. As I say, I think Boris is simply positioning himself, just in case that happens.
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444. ScotInNotts
"I'm not exactly sure what it is you find incorrect or objectionable with my previous posts?"
They were addressing entirely the wrong point. As I already explained, the issue is not the inclusion of the SNP in broadcasts outside of Scotland, but the exclusion of the SNP from broadcasts within Scotland.
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#450
LIT proposals operate on exactly the same principle as PAYE. Its determining factor is ability to pay not what it is spent on or how much any individual uses of that.
From a tax collection point that is the only sensible and efficient way to levy tax - on any individual's ability to meet the bill based on his/her income.
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#459
Snecked, I suggest you stop trying to defend a politicians that claims three salaries, while thousands are losing their jobs.
Are you telling me AS has every right to be an MP, FM, MSP, all at once.
He gives a portion of his third salary(MSP) to a charity in his mothers name.
Then claims £400 pound expenses per month on food?.
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#450 Neil_Small147
To expand on #456 oldnat
The old local taxation was, as oldnat said, very similar to today’s offering. Properties were accessed and given a rateable value. Water rates were, and still are, calculated and paid using same mechanism. That is unless you are a metered water user.
Today the difference is that property values (carried out in 1990) are now banded into a number of different payment levels.
I think the following link may give you further insight:
Water Rates
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I really wish her name had been Baroness Britain
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217962/How-Baroness-flouted-tax-law-cleaner.html
so much more appropriate!
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I do have to ask... Where DO some of these people get their haircuts? That picture of Boris Johnson is right out of Black Adder.
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It looks as though two newspapers are running with the recent Al-Megrahi information.
Scottish Herald.
Guardia.
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464. cynicalHighlander
You are traducing this good woman's name! As a poster on political betting made clear "Ms. Harman’s use of the phone while driving was a mere technical breach, she crashed her car within the rules, and the leaving the scene of the accident was done in good faith?"
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@468. *sigh* Even I understand this giggles and I'm an American.
Because he is also an MP he does not receive the full MSP salary. That is the law.
He gives the gross of the MSP salary (which means he gives MORE than he gets) to a charity. Yes, the charity was established in his mother;s name and is run by a trust. You DO know what a trust is? The people who run it are on public record. The information is very easy to find. If isn't that hard to understand--really.
Keep whanging on. I'll now ignore you.
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At this rate Labour really is going to implode before the GE. Can they manage to embarrass themselves a little bit more? You can't even blame The Sun for picking on them. Why didn't GB make this Baroness resign?
(why isn't she called by the placename of her title instead of her surname? I don't understand. Never heard the Duke of York called Duke Windsor--or whatever they use for a surname these days. But you know--Americans never get titles right. =( )
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It looks as though two newspapers are running with the recent Al-Megrahi information.
Scottish Herald.
Guardian.
Sorry about that, if you forget to take
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This article is worth a read.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/scotland-puts-a-brave-face-on-a-slip-in-reputation-1797244.html
Despite including every possible negative included (and the Goodwin/Hornby ones are accurate), the assessment of Edinburgh's financial sector is positive and optimistic.
"Scotland – Edinburgh in particular – is benefiting from the recession, with many financial-services exiles returning after stints in London and elsewhere. Many are using the recession to set up new, smaller, boutique-style operations in Edinburgh, in the hedge-fund world, for example."
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474. JRMacClure
"I'll now ignore you."
You really should have thought of that earlier.
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475. JRMacClure
"why isn't she called by the placename of her title instead of her surname?"
I believe they get a choice as to the preferred form of their title. Doubtless having a whole country instead of some Cotswold village appeals to some.
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Oh, my. I'm sure that someone will say this is because of al-Megrahi:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217984/Humiliation-Gordon-Brown-US-plan-G4-elite-Britain.html
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477. oldnat
"the assessment of Edinburgh's financial sector is positive and optimistic."
It's an ill wind....
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480. JRMacClure
I don't think they will. The Brits will be too busy crying. At a stroke, this exposes the Labour claim of "Scotland being the most powerful country in the world" as the arrant nonsense that it always was.
Not only has the Empire gone, but the residual post-war place that being America's pal has gone as well.
Ireland is in the Eurozone. It's a damn sight more powerful than Scotland now!
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#478
Ha! again your friend in America has it completely wrong on Salmonds earnings and what the last FM did about the two wage syndrome, if you become FM.
Hermit, do you think that the freeze on council tax is ever lasting?.
What type of interest rate would an Independent Scotland set and if an Independent Scotland did go ahead with a local income tax, at what rate would you set a non contributor at?. Someone say under 20,000 per year would not have to contribute to LIT?.
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I suppose one question is whether this Baroness Scotland scandal and the Harriet Harman scandal will actually be covered by the BBC. So far, they seem to be trying hard to ignore the affairs, but I wouldn't expect those to slip by The Sun.
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476. At 01:20am on 04 Oct 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
'It looks as though two newspapers are running with the recent Al-Megrahi information.'
I am outraged that you think that Kenny MacAskill was right after all.
I am going to get some victims family's to express my outrage at you.
I am going to scour New York to find someone to express their outrage at this.
The people of Scotland are outraged that you think there was a miscarriage of justice.
The whole world and the known universe are outraged that you are insinuating that Iain Gray and Scottish labour made a fool of themselves again.
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480. JRMacClure
And just so that people don't think the G4 story is a Daily Mail creation - here's the Reuters report
"LONDON (Reuters) - British finance minister Alistair Darling played down suggestions on Saturday [3 Oct] that a new G4 body might be set up.
A G7 source told Reuters earlier that the United States was pushing for the creation of a new group comprising itself, Japan, China and Europe to supplant the Group of Seven rich economies as an economic policymaking group.
Asked about this, Darling said: "These proposals have been around for a long time ... You shouldn't read too much into these proposals."
He said the G20 was now going to be the premier global economic policymaking group and Britain was also a member of the European Union.
But he added: "It is not our position that the G7 is going to be wound up."
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US paid reward to Lockerbie witness, Abdelbaset al-Megrahi papers claim
I honestly thought that was already pretty common knowledge. Well, not in the US but over here--that the witnesses had been paid off.
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485. U14153624
Why have you omitted the outrage of the unknown universe?
You clearly lack the appropriate degree of glenncambelliness for a BBC Scotland reporter, and are hereby dismissed.
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484. JRMacClure
"I suppose one question is whether this Baroness Scotland scandal..."
What "scandal"? She broke the rules. She paid the penalty. One law for all. Why should someone have to suffer additional punishment just because they are a politician?
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484. JRMacClure
"whether this Baroness Scotland scandal and the Harriet Harman scandal will actually be covered by the BBC. So far, they seem to be trying hard to ignore the affairs"
A quick search finds about a dozen pieces relating to the Baroness Scotland "scandal". And the Harman story is one of the top items on the BBC News page. If they are meant to be ignoring these things then they are doing a damned poor job of it.
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#489. Ummm I see.
So there is no penalty for lying about having seen an apparently non-existent passport, for failing to give wage slips or failing to withhold taxes.
Thank you for explaining that to me.
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#491. Oh, yes, I'm impressed with that headline. She leaves the scene of the crash and the headline is: Harman questioned. *rolls eyes*
I can imagine if it were any other party than Labour.
And where do you see the top coverage on BBC of the continued expanding scandal regarding the good Baroness? The fact is they've done their usual poor job of covering anything negative regarding Labour.
They do eventually cover it--when they absolutely have to.
If you find that adequate coverage, I'm happy for you. Personally, I think it's pretty darn poor.
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487. JRMacClure
"I honestly thought that was already pretty common knowledge. Well, not in the US but over here--that the witnesses had been paid off."
I think it is the amount of the bribe... sorry, "reward" that is new information.
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And incidentally Electric Hermit, if I want to address the idiocies that giggles makes, I'll do so. If you don't like it, don't read my comments. That works for me.
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#485 U14153624
My I am amazed you got that all from one line. Do you do Tarot cards as well?
By the way I don’t do Universe….you are better seeing Duff Gordon he’s got the edge on that.
Apart from that a nice Nice RANT as far as NEEPS go
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491. JRMacClure
"So there is no penalty for lying about having seen an apparently non-existent passport, for failing to give wage slips or failing to withhold taxes.
"
There probably is. But first there has to be evidence of the offence. Then there is the formality of due process - court hearings and all that nonsense. And, shockingly, all of this applies even if the accused person is a politician.
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492. JRMacClure
"Oh, yes, I'm impressed with that headline. She leaves the scene of the crash and the headline is: Harman questioned. *rolls eyes*"
I'm sure you would have preferred a more sensational headline, but the whole piece seems to simply give what information is available. What lurid details were you hoping for?
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#485 U14153624
By the way who is Iain Gray?
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494. JRMacClure
"And incidentally Electric Hermit, if I want to address the idiocies that giggles makes, I'll do so."
You are, of course, free to encourage trolls if that is what pleases you. Just as I am free to advise against doing so.
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#496. And when was the formality of due process, court hearings and all that nonsense for the original "penalty"?
As far as I could see, they kind of skipped that part.
Even if the accused person is a politician... wouldn't you think they MIGHT want to wait to talk to the person who was involved? But no. All that "nonsense" you refer to apparently wasn't necessary for the politician.
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