The word on the street
Let me share with you two sources of economic analysis which have come my way. One from the Scottish Chambers of Commerce. The other from shoppers in Springburn.
The first is a regular members' survey. It discerned that manufacturers are becoming more optimistic and that the tourist trade had a relatively good summer.
In all, there are signs that recovery is under way, while remaining fragile.
As noted, my second source of information comes from chatting to Glaswegians who are currently being pursued by politicians in search of votes - the Glasgow North East by-election.
Firstly, two votes of thanks from me.
To the posse of young kids in Dennistoun who adopted me and kept the pavement clear while I havered to a camera. Nice one, guys.
Thanks too to the folk who took the time to voice their concerns to me about issues which they felt should be prominent in the by-election.
Folk like the mum who was persuaded to speak by her young sons - then proceeded to offer an excellent analysis of what is going right in her patch. And what is going wrong.
To the other woman who paused on her way to the dentist, hope the treatment worked.
And the issues raised? Predominantly, two - or, rather, one issue, conjoined.
The economy, poverty, the lack of jobs - allied to the attendant crime and disorder.
I say "disorder" deliberately. Several folk I spoke to stressed that they weren't predominantly talking about major crime. Most were well aware of efforts to tackle crime locally.
Rather, they were talking about petty, loutish crime - vandalism, disruptive behaviour, lack of respect.
A sense, as one put it, that the area had lost its way a bit. Plus, of course, the ever present drugs.
Virtually everyone I spoke to made the link between crime and a lack of economic opportunity - although several also felt there were members of the community who didn't make enough effort to sort themselves out.
To be clear, this wasn't an unfocused, collective whinge. Very, very far from it.
These people were very well aware of efforts by politicians - Westminster, Holyrood and local authority - to improve things.
They knew about training schemes, they knew about area rehabilitation, they knew about leisure facilities, they knew about efforts to counter crime. They appreciated the public spending.
But they felt it wasn't sufficient. They felt it wasn't properly directed, offering me local examples.
They felt the core was preventing another generation from dwindling into workless malcontent.
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Yes Brian, 74 years of this slow disintegration under Labour but the BBC will still be encouraging the people of Glasgow North East to just stomach a few decades more for the sake of the union.
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The locals may well all complain about the economic issues, but stick a red rosette on a monkey and...
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You are right on this Brian. The question that needs to be asked of Willie Bain is; why has Westminster Government after Westminster Government; UK Labour Government after UK Labour Government failed to address the real concerns of these people and left them in a dead end of low pay, the benefit trap and petty crime.
It also rather highlights the shallowness of the Labour PPC's press launch as the main issues he claimed he was going to act on are all either the remit of Glasgow City Council or Holyrood and he has no influence on either unless, as a new MP, he can get Darling to reverse his real term cuts in the Scottish grant since May 2007 and prevent the further £500 million cut in the grant for 2010 - 2011.
Labour are also now at a tactical disadvantage having been endorsed by Scotland's UKIP variant, The Orange Lodge, as saviours of the Union! Man, it just shows how desperate Labour and the Orange Lodge are becoming. Vote Labour.... get 'The Orange Lodge'.
Yep, Wee Eck, Annabelle, Tavish the Viking and the rest will just love that on their canvassing posters, T-shirts, duvet covers.......
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interesting post,Brian, your last two sentences are the most important you have written on this blog for a long, long time.
"but they felt it wasn't sufficient.they felt it wasn't properly directed,offering me local examples"and "they felt the core was preventing another generation from dwindling into work less malcontent"
We all know what the "choices" are, this blog has simply put a human face on it.
Do we need new nuclear weapons and nuclear power stations or do we need to help the people you met in Glasgow on the street to improve their life chances?
Make no mistake you could swap "Glasgow" for Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Dundee,Inverness,Dumfries any part of Scotland you care to mention .
do we need to review how the support is delivered - obviously we do.
when will we know we have got it right? when we finally reach the hard core and have some success at turning them around then and only then can we call anything a success. It will not be easy ,it won't be cheap but it will be well worth it!
Sid
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3.
Labour candidates running campaigns on devolved issues is nothing new. Lindsay Roy somehow managed to get away with it in Glenrothes.
What has to be done is for Kerr to call him to task for this. Point out that these are issues Bain has no influence over, highlight the significance a stronger Scottish voice in Westminster would have, and campaign on issues that he CAN influence as a Westminster MP.
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Being dependent isn't good for the psyche. It steals confidence, pride and motivation. Even just subconsciously, independence is hope instead of no hope.
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#1 GK
Labour and the Tories alike Grassy... Labour didn't kill off the industrial heart of Scotland on thier own. It simply didn't fight hard enough to stop it happening in the first place - or taking steps to reverse it when thier time in power came.
The only party that offers something different to these people is the SNP. Everyone else wants the status quo and the status quo for these people is laden with poverty, ridicule and economic misery.
If Labour retain this seat - then all of Glasgow East have only themselves to blame when nothing changes.
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#5,
An interesting point.
Would you similarly argue that the Scottish Parliament sticks to its devolved remit, and stays away from reserved matters.
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If Labours slogan and platform is that the SNP have ripped off Glasgow because of an airport link during an economic crisis, I'm not convinced.
Glasgow has gone from the 2nd city of the empire to a place more synonymous with laziness and unemployment.
What have Labour or the Conservatives done to change this? NOTHING
What have they done to exacerbate it? EVERYTHING
The SNP has only the interests of Scotland at heart - how anyone can say this a bad thing is beyond me. Perhaps some people don't mind the likes of tabloid scumbag Kelvin McKenzie decrying Scots as lazy, subsidized wasters who leech off of England - but I do.
The next general election is critical mass for change for Scotland and especially areas like Glasgow North East. I only hope that the people see who really has thier interests at heart.
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#7 Re My Post
I meant Glasgow NORTH EAST
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Glasgow North East is about as close as you get in Scotland to the communities in England that have elected BNP councillors and MEPs.
In a first past the post race there's far less chance of that success being repeated. But the fact that all the other parties allowed the BNP to hit the streets of Springburn first and that as yet none of the mainstream candidates have condemned Charlie Baillie and co.'s poisonous proclamations is a sad indictment of them all. Worse yet, I've yet to see any communication from any party that addresses the issue of integration, of crucial importance in an area with such a disproportionately high numbers of first-generation immigrants.
Willie Bain in particular needs to drop his SNP-centric tactics (foolish and perhaps even irrelevant in a Westminster by election so close to a general election, despite all the Nat's recent gum-flapping about a power bloc in a hung parliament) and claim the moral high ground as the candidate from the party of UK government.
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#8 deadgoatsociety
#5, An interesting point.
Would you similarly argue that the Scottish Parliament sticks to its devolved remit, and stays away from reserved matters.
An interesting point indeed. Are you wanting the ToryLabLibDems to repay the money spent on Calman looking at reserved matters?
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Online Ed Here
Interesting blog and pretty much what we already knew - it will of course probably be rendered redundant when the latest offering from Iain Gray/Murphy hits the headlines as usual.
I know what many of these people are going through having gone through it myself many years ago and watching now as many family members in Greenock still struggle with the legacy of years of Westminster rule.
Brian has an opportunity tommorrow to cut through the chaf and offer some serious scrutiny of all the candidates. If anyone of them, including David Kerr, start their rambling party soundbite nonsense then step in right away - the 'ripping off Glasgow' lie is awfull and not even true.
If Bain is determined to stick to Holyrod policies then question him on his parties view on the council tax freeze and the fact that every London borough is to adopt the same policy, this is relevant given that Bain lives almost half of the week on London.
Does Bain feel that the council tax in it's present form is fair to the low paid and pensioners?
Is he happy that constituents including his parents went fully six months without representation? Who was responsible for addressing the concerns of the constituents when Michael Martin became speaker and was unable to honour his responsibilites to the area?
For sure Kerr will be asked the insipid and completely pointless 'who do you want to be the next PM' question. A question aimed more at creating a damaging headline than to inform the electorate.
Kerr should be asked what the SNP intend to do if, as may happen, Labour are decimated in England?
Bain should be asked if he would prefer a Labour Government in an independent Scotland or a Tory Government within the Union.
The people of Springburn will only be able to form a reasoned view if they are presented with facts and if all party representatives are scrutinised with equal vigour.
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To pick up on a point on the previous thread about the translation of the former MP for the Glasgow NE seat. We dont need 750 odd Lords. We could have 72 elected Senators on Euro boundaries, 72 elected from and by Life Peers and 72 elected from and by hereditary peers and, with 4 "Senators at grace" for those the Government needs, makes 220 of a revising body for the 630 MPs mistakes. It would have some elected legitimacy, be a "retirement home" for the wothwhile of the old political warhorses and retain an element of continuity for the conservatively inclined.
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#13 Online Ed.
Some good points. I would add what has the local Labour MSP [guess who] done about develoved issues like Crime, Health, Housing and Education during his 10 years in office ?
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@7, happy to acknowledge that GA, maybe I should have written unionists.
Lab/Tory are now so similar that since Blair I hardly bother to make the distinction any more. The Tories are considerably less authoritarian of course and their snout troughing is arguably classier involving as it does, duck houses and wisteria rather than 4 by 2 planks and pay as you view porn. Other than that, can't see any difference. (sorry Catriona was that too disciplined for you ?)
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Brian - another worthy piece however yet again I have to ask:
How much have labour MPs scammed from the taxpayer, nothing or millions ? I really want to know.
Does the labour candidate for the forthcoming by-election actually live in london ?
Go on Brian try blogging on why we still don't know the answers to the questions I have posed.
Finally that Catriona "who do you want as prime minister?" reporter - Is she really an ex-labour councillor ? I would love to say that she hides it well but that would be a lie. Glencampbelly or what ?
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the word on the street is that the SNP fair no better in government than the last tory government, under investment, under employment and lack of orderly police control.
The SNP just simply dont like Glasgow.
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#18 brownresolute
Michael Martin liked Glasgow so much he moved to East Dunbartonshire, but I'd bet Margaret Doran really really likes Glasgow.
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"the word on the street" lol Derek , you been down the Staines massif wif you bruvvas again?
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brownresolute @ 18 - Thanks for this Glenn.
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#18 Brownresolute... stop playing with your daddy's PC and go do something useful like going and helping your mummy with the housework.
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We all know that the SNP decided to pull the plug on the GARL and we all know that the SNP have just gave away an 8million pound contract to TNT, rather than royal mail, we all know that the SNP favour right wing ideas because their time in government has delivered more Tory pledges than their own.
WE ALL KNOW IT'S TIME TO GET RID OF THIS BUNCH OF PERTENDERS.
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Brownresolute
First you keep using the royal "we", now you're telling us the "word on the street". Are you the love-child of Huggy Bear and Queen Victoria?
Are you incapable of posting anything positive? I wanted to hear your 1690 reasons for voting Labour.
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3. slaintemha
So how many failed SNP governments will it take before you accept responsibility for anything?
We are well through the first SNP parliament and all we have is a ever so slightly different shade of pink.
What I would take out of Brians Blog is that the voters are starting to realise that the SNP are no much different from labour and every bit as capable of telling porkies and breaking promises.
The future is not about the type of campaign we have already seen taking shape, a stupid religious argument, a stupid residency argument and the issues that affect the people completely forgotten.
That is the reason why the electorate start to tar all politicians with the same brush. If they all behave the same they all get treated the same.
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20. GrassyKnollington
Last night I was supposed to be Derek, how many Dereks are their? For the record I have been called many things in my life but never Derek.
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#24 InfrequentAllele
What kind of babble nonsense is that?.
Look,can you explain why Mr Salmond said that he understood the Thatcher economics, could it be that the SNP are just the northern branch of conservatism in Scotland?.
Infrequent, you keep raising this bigoted nonsense? WHY?.
Do you think in some way your giving the BNP more exposure than normal?.
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#23 brownresolute- calm down man all you are doing is aggravating your ulcers.what is it like to have more faces than the town hall clock? be careful now don't slip up . at least we know you are up for a wee giggle now and again.
we all know that cyberbrits are a wee bit thin on the ground but what do you think you having umpteen names on this blog actually achieves? apart from giving the rest of us a laugh. the more names you have the more extremely silly you appear.
the one and only Sid.
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3 slainthema
"Vote Labour.... get 'The Orange Lodge'. Yep, Wee Eck, Annabelle, Tavish the Viking and the rest will just love that on their canvassing posters, T-shirts, duvet covers......."
The Tories have never stopped canvassing the OO in this part of the world, mainly through the use of posters that always included the word 'Unionist' on it.
Is it me or is there sock puppets operating here? Onescotlandmanyscots seems to be answering for brownresolute and northhighlander posted at a suspiciously close time to him. considering that this guy praised him on a previous thread for justifying the OO. I am new here but can spot this a mile away.
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Was wondering if anyone might know the answer to a quick question -
What's Willie Bain's degree, in full and where did he matriculate? I'm just vaguely curious about someone who was (presumably) educated in Scotland 'jumping the fence' between Scots Law and UK law as I assume he's done. Either that or, is he lecturing on Scots Law at the South Bank University. Seems unlikely.
No suggestion of any sort of impropriety, like I said, I'm just curious.
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#25
Failed in your eyes maybe. But then your resolutely opposed to independence - so nothing the SNP do or say will make any difference to you.
Nice to see you labelling the onionists voting against the SNP as lies and broken promises. I'd say it's not a broken promise when the opposition are intrinsic in the policies failure to become law - and it's called hypocritical when the likes of Tavish Scott and the dour wee Gray neep harp on about these "broken promises" as if they are an attack on the scottish voter.
You'd have to have a warped sense of irony, justice and fairness to come to that conclusion.
Or be an unrepentant onionist during the deathroes of British rule over this country.
Go on, you know you are.
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You mentioned that the people of Glasgow North-East are currently "being pursued by politicians in search of votes" in the up-coming by-election. We've all witnessed it.
Walk along Duke Street around midday and you'll likely be accosted by one of the mainstream parties' elitist career politicians canvassing for votes by spewing empty rhetoric to people who, in actuallity, just want the chance of a job, a decent quality of life and to feel safe on the streets.
No-one I've met has been suitably convinced by New Labour or the SNP. I think the voters are less inclined nowadays to be swayed by the dubious promises of the mainstream parties, which is why I think The Jury Team candidate John Smeaton will fare rather well.
The principles he (as an independent candidate) espouses - Politics without Parties, Politics with Principles and Politics for the People - represent the only way we can be free from the sleaze and greed and empty promises that have come to define party politics.
Let's hope people are sensible enough to realise that seventy years of voting Labour has brought nothing but misery to the constituency.
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#27
Even if that were true and Salmond became Dark Baroness Thatcher incarnate - his policies towards Scotland would invariably like Thatchers towards the home counties. Ever heard anyone from Sussex, Kent or Surrey speak ill of Thatcher?
Thatchers problem was she didn't like the Scot's ideal of Nationhood and negotiating with Scotland to her would have been demeaning and counter productive. So she decided to shaft us instead - what did she care? We didn't vote her in and we weren't going to collectively be able to vote her out.
If we had a prime minister who treated Scotland was well as Thatcher treated the Home counties then Scotland would probably be happy as part of the Union. There's no guarantee but there every possibility.
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25. northhighlander
Yeah, what's the point in even trying, northhighlander.....none?
It's all rubbish etc. etc. What an example you are, to the younger generation. Do you wear a flat cap by any chance ;-)
Lets give up.
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#27 brownstuff
Delboy you are priceless - for everything else there is Barclaycard!
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Just reading on the Grauniad, a quote from a "well known" BBC presenter ( who did not wish to be identified) about about the decision to allow Nick Griffin of the BNP to appear on Question Time.
They said ""Because we have all been at the BBC so long, you get this fairness chip implanted."
Is that so? Great, any chance you could put about 75 working ones in a Jiffy bag and send them up to BBC Scotland. A few of our fairness chips seem to be malfunctioning and some never worked from the start.
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70 odd years of Labour control, and yet some people are still thinking of voting for them. Despite the prospect of "yet another" generation lost to unemployment and drugs!
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Perhaps after 74 years its more that people in Glasgow are cautious about change, should they give the SNP a try I think they'll be pleasantly surprised, Dundee has massively improved since we ousted Labour from the council and government, there hasn't been any corruption neither, may'be Glasgow should follow suit and give it a try.
And BTW, BROWN RESOLUTE, For your information, Glasgow under the SNP recieves more money per head of population than any other city in Scotland !!! SO your conclusions regarding SNP governance are pants
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#24: InfrequentAllele -
To be fair to Derek; "the word on the street" is the title of this 'episode' of Brian's blog.
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25 northhighlander
You make some very good points about the lack of trust in this SNP government.
Where in the SNP manifesto did it say that it would part privatise the royal mail by giving away a contract to TNT.
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Bandages_For_Konjic
All you have to do is a one year postgrad to change to English law, you don't even need to have Law as your first degree. To lecture I reckon a masters is a minimum, though there are exceptions
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#24 Inferquentallele - your post:
your 1690 reasons for voting Labour.
Brilliant, can I use it?
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Word on the street, peace as they are hiding from the insurgents.
William Bain and his English Minders walk deserted streets as people won't talk to them
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# 25 Northhighlander
The future is not about the type of campaign we have already seen taking shape, a stupid religious argument, a stupid residency argument and the issues that affect the people completely forgotten.
I disagree. Much as we’d like it to be otherwise the future will be governed by the campaign, how it’s run and more importantly the integrity of the candidates, so the concerns being expressed are quite legitimate. Likewise, I have no wish to be governed by religious cliques or paramilitary bully boys. And yes, by all means let’s stick to the issues that count and make sure that they are fully debated and explored. But let’s do it fully aware of the circumstances surrounding the election and the candidates
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25. northhighlander
Yet, further....
It's not religious, or romantic, or otherwise fluffy and misguided, to seek independence - it's normality, plain and simple normality. It should be normality. It's reality that my vote doesn't count in the Westminster parliament, it's outweighed by the body of my neighbours' votes to the south. You might not mind. You might feel things are fine enough as they are. Why get your life entangled in all the hett up? I understand that.
But, by that benchmark, you are just as likely to find your status after independence "fine as it is" - you don't expect very much to change ;-)
I say "improvement opportunity", you say "disbelief"... But we have to try, not give up.
So your not caring too much for change the denies me my status, as a contributor to my national politics as it is understood pretty much across the globe. Whereas if I could have my say, we would probably both be fine with that. That's what's so stupid about the argument against independence. If we were already independent, you probably wouldn't want to change that.
I really do care.
I can't shape my future. And I've invested heavily in it (four children). Yes, I have a nice life, yes I am free to enjoy all the luxuries of western society etc. etc. But that I can't decide for myself, we can't decide for ourselves, on reserved affairs is an affront to me as a person, and to the capabilities of our country's offspring. It matters more to me than money, like family is more important than money. And I'm not religious.
It's just not right. It cannot be right...
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I hope that after all the blame game is over that the people who matter in the NE Glasgow make the right choice for them, may be if they see change happening quickly enough from their new elected politician, that the x amount of years of neglect and lack of investment will quickly be forgotten.
Who knows??
PS Was Jim Murphy playing for the Russians last night (Rahimic)???
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40 brownresolute/northhighlander
Sock puppet moniter is going into over-drive. self praise is really no praise unless you have a split personality. then it is just being neighbourly.
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#40 whoever you are?
you are on very dangerous ground there.
Lets ask the same of your beloved new labour .
on second thoughts It would take so long I'll not bother thank you.
I have better things to do with my time.
the bi election is for Westminster but the Labour party have made such a mess of it they dare not talk about anything to do with it. looking forward to more misinformation and down-rite untruths We still haven't heard from lord haw haw I wait with anticipation
Sid
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#36 GrassyKnollington
"Great, any chance you could put about 75 working ones in a Jiffy bag and send them up to BBC Scotland. A few of our fairness chips seem to be malfunctioning and some never worked from the start."
ROFL but I suspect you already know the answer to your question.
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northhighlander:
#25.
"So how many failed SNP governments will it take before you accept responsibility for anything?"
To be honest the SNP, could well continue a 2nd term or maybe even a third term and continue blaming London. It's not suprising that the cuts can not be blamed on Holyrood, so who else will receive the stick?
"What I would take out of Brians Blog is that the voters are starting to realise that the SNP are no much different from labour and every bit as capable of telling porkies and breaking promises."
Your not a child, if you continue to behave and conduct yourself in this type of manner I may start treating you like one. First of all a politition can never lie and I suspect the opposition would include a formal complaint if the SNP administration misled Parliament. I remember one member of Parliament being forced to apologise for eating their lunch but claiming to be elsewhere, so I would expect the SNP to be held to account in the same manner. If not, why not? If the opposition can not hold the SNP administration to account I would suspect that it's a serious flaw in our democratic system or I would come to the conclusion that your telling a few porkies by attempting to discredit the SNP administration as liars.
I also do not see nationalists or opposition at London holding Labour to account over their promises, why not? It's quite clear that Governments must act on circumstances that are unpredictable. The Highlands council apparently ran up to 14 million pounds on energy because of the sky high oil prices. Therefore because of circumstances outwith their control the budget will also have to take into account these extra costs - cuts must happen.
You must allow Governments and parties to adapt to circumstances especailly circumstances beyond their control. It's childish not allowing that privilage. If this country was attacked I would guess you would expect the Government to react and I will also guess you would not be amused if the Government were to say, "Guys, we've not budgeted for this suprise invasion. A counter attack will have to wait till the next budget, sorry."
"The future is not about the type of campaign we have already seen taking shape, a stupid religious argument, a stupid residency argument and the issues that affect the people completely forgotten."
I also find this 'argument' ridiculous. I can honestly say that the issues that effect you and I are not the same. Therefore how can you claim that issues effecting the people are completely forgetten? You certainly are not speaking on my behalf and I would be very suprised if you even came close to being in a similar position as I am.
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The Word On The Street.
So the people have a choice of Labour endorsed by the Orange Order, a secterian organisation run by bigots for bigots,or, SNP who's candidate is a member of an ultra right wing conservative organisation with direct links to fascism through General Franco & General Pinochet, in addition to being anti gay, anti abortiion and anti stem cell research.
Is this the best Scotland can offer the people of Springburn ?
Wansanshoo.
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42. Robabody, feel free.
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45. eye_write
Some would say, we don't realise how well off we are - we don't have to bother with all that nuisance of murky national / international politics or the difficulties of running a country. Meant well, like a pat on the head.
Why have a dog and bark yourself? Because the dog's walking you.
It used up all its dog food and is eating yours, it wanted to start a fight with another dog, it's buried it's toxic bone in your back garden...it has an over inflated view of its own privates...it's grabbing your leg... ;-)
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#45
The Sasquatch has spoken again, she would give it all up, poverty for borders.
So what would Scotland do with Independence?
Enforce the single currency on the rest of us without a choice? That's not quite freedom of choice eye-writ, is it?.
Or would you keep the queen and the armed forces, plus the pound and declare home rule?.
Think about big foot?.
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Why are people so afraid to be independent don't they know/understand that once that is done then you can still vote for what ever party is standing in a Scotland only GE with the understanding that they are really only looking after Scotlands interest and not that from a second party.
Sorry someone mentioned Scottish Water and it's privatisation!!! This will be the next "oil" issue if we dont have it someone else will and make us pay for it (Barnet on Water).
PS Does the GREY man look like QUAGMIRE from Family Guy?
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I bound to wonder what is behind the, 'Smeatonist' faction. Sure, this young lad behaved very well on that dreadful day at Glasgow Airport but why does he now take his shining crown of heroism and dip in the cesspool of Scottish politics? I have never met the lad but any time I have seen him on tv he comes over as inarticulate. Still if the people of Dennistoun et al choose him, that's up to them. I can only hope that he and some of the other 'esoteric' candidates will split the Labour vote and let the SNP take the seat.
It never ceases to amaze me that constituencies where sickness and unemployment are rife, they vote for the party that continues to take their benefits away from them.
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Re 40 from Brownirresolute:
you neglect to mention that the far larger mail contract for 1st class did go to Royal Mail, and the reason the 2nd class was not awarded to RM was to save money; that it was awarded by the agency set up to do just that; and that Alistair Darling should be delighted as he wants big government to find savings to minimise the undoubted pain to come.
Can you please be a bit more even handed with your criticism in future, or you will continue to be corrected.
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# 40 brownplaystheflute
When are ye gonna stop your idiotic criticisms of the SNP and put forward some points outlining what Bain is going to do to improve the lives of the people of north-east Glasgow and why they should trust what he and his NuLabour cronies say. Its easy to be negative like you are, so come on tell us the new ideas to change 70+years of neglect by Unionist governments.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
23 BROWNRESOLUTE: The SNP have given a £17 million contract to Royal Mail as well.
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re "stick a red rosette on a monkey" this just about sums up the writers own level. i dont know who you vote for or represent, probably snp, but to insult people because they dont agree with you is despicable. is that what happens when canvassing. it might have escaped your notice, but glasgow is in scotland, and its people are also scots.
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BNP & GLASGOW BY ELECTION: GREENS TO REPORT “UNBALANCED” BBC
"Today’s much-publicised appearance by BNP leader Nick Griffin on Question Time will be aired during the election campaign for Glasgow North East, and the Scottish Green Party will formally report the BBC to Ofcom for a clear breach of the Ofcom Code. The Code requires additional care to be given to the issues of fairness and political balance during election times."
And for those who missed FMQs today
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Re 51 Wansanshoo:
You are simply criticising the Catholic Church, are you arguing prospective Parliamentarians cannot be catholic!!
God knows I am not an apologist for the Catholic Church, but every policy you quote is not special to Opus Dei, they are policy of the Catholic Church.
I don’t agree with any of them, but they are honestly held views which they are perfectly entitled to expound.
And I quote from my response to the last blog:
“I am disappointed that no one has challenged the statement "dubious sect Opus Dei".
Dan Brown doesn't do good history, good literature, mind stretching mathematics or anything else good or mind stretching that I can see (other than sensationalist money making): having forced myself to finish the risible Da Vinci Code.
The fact of the matter is Opus Dei is part of, and approved by, the Catholic Church. Saying it is dubious is implicit criticism of the church and its hierarchy.
As a lapsed catholic with some kinship to Presbyterianism, I disagree with a lot of Catholic social policy and some of its theology. But, crucially I can see that they are honestly held views and are intended to better society. How the church chooses to structure itself matters not a jot.”
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It was myself that discussed privatisation of Scottish Water, the tories are all for it, probably because of the benefits it brings to England and the future westminster government,
Water in England is a shambles, Scottish Water is doing fine as a public company, so hopefully Salmond will keep fighting to keep it that way!!
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Online Ed Here
Just a reply from the BBC over my complaint regarding the fading out of the first few minutes of the First Ministers speech to the SNP conference last Saturday.
Thanks for your phone call of 17 October regarding the BBC News Channel.
I note you were annoyed that Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond's speech to the SNP conference was broadcast with a BBC Correspondent speaking over him.
While I appreciate your concerns, Lorna Gordon was reporting for the News Channel from the conference about what might be included in his speech. At the same time, BBC Parliament and BBC Two Scotland broadcast live and uninterrupted coverage of the First Minister's speech.
Nevertheless, I understand if you were disappointed by the News Channel's coverage. I've registered your complaint on our audience log. This is a daily report of audience feedback that's circulated to many BBC staff, including members of the BBC Executive Board, channel controllers and other senior managers.
The audience logs are seen as important documents that can help shape decisions about future programming and content.
Thanks again for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Now, I'm pretty sure I was watching BBC2 Scotland and not the news channel referred to. I'm also certain that the voice was not that of a female as claimed in this response - can anyone else confirm this?
The important thing is that the fading out of the speech is not mentioned and the talking over it was not due to the writ for the by-election.
You'll also notice that there is no attempt at apologising for this quite clear disregard for consistency in political broadcasts. It shouldn't matter what channel we are viewing, the BBC should endeavour to act in a balanced and fair manner - a failure to do this should result in an apology.
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54. brownresolute
Yawn....maybe you are a bit haunless and could plunge us into poverty - it would take some doing, right enough... Warning, browndoops thinks we're going to turn into the next Zimbabwe. (And Salmond is Mugabe??)
Dumb.
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#13
Excellent post.
You hit THE nail on the head with this:
"Bain should be asked if he would prefer a Labour Government in an independent Scotland or a Tory Government within the Union."
This question should be asked over and over again to every Scottish Labour party memeber who appears on TV or in the papers or anywhere esle in the public domain.
Naturally, Scottish Labour members favour Scotland under the Tories within the union more than a Scotland under a governmet it chooses which, of course, exposes the fundamental hypocrisy of Scottish Labour.
They claim to oppose and even despise the Tories but they despise the thought of a Scotland choosing its own form of government even more.
It is a blatantly anti-democratic position that they have taken as a matter of course.
And why? Why do they want Scotland living under a government it doesn't choose instead of living under a government it does choose, as democracy should alow for each and every country on this earth?
I can only think of one answer: the Labour party members of Scotland are more intersted in their big time careers at Westminster than they are in democracy for Scotland. Independence for them means an end to all that show biz they love so much.
It sickens me more than I can express here to see the Labour candidate for Glasgow NE (whose name I prefer not to remember) announcing himself thus: "Unlike some, I'm not career-politician"
No, of course not.
I feel so sorry for the people of Glasgow who have been in the grip of this dispicable party for so long and I rejoice at the fact that so many people in Glasgow are starting to see through the hypocrisy and serial lack of action on their behalf.
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57
Dont be so crass, are you also advocating that royal mail shouldn't receive the First Class post contract also?.
Look, this Scottish government has part privatised the royal mail in Scotland by giving a private firm a procurement deal that promotes further privatisation?.
Make up your mind, what do you want? public services or private services?.
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59. Hahahaha What an amazing way to gather support. I'm sure your chosen candidate will be mighty proud to have you out campaigning with them.
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#59 constipation
Silly boy, now we know your surname is MacKerel! We'd have you filleted and tinned in brine from the Trident base by Saturday except it would never get past the Health and Safety on account of the radiation. 8-)
Just how far is Eccles Street from HMNB Clyde? Does Willie T Bain care? He ought to if he lives in Glasgow NE.
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Online Ed Here
The BBC complaints are in meltdown just now over the BNP, I've just spoken to one of their complaints people who seemed relieved that I didn't want to discuss the BNP appearance.
Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised when I mentioned the plummeting standards in BBC Scotland's political reporting and the [Scottish] guy pretty much responded with "I know what you mean !!".
The upshot is that a written letter will now be required in order to get these arrogant toe rags to even give the semblence of an apology.
What's the point in a complaints system that, even when the misdemeanour is acknowledged, there is no apology.
Oh, thanks for the link at comment 43.
George Laird has a particularly effective and witty turn of phrase. The quote by Labour's William Bain that the SNP should have used the Royal Mail for leafletting is priceless - given that they are about to go on strike.
Looks like the 'giggle' poster has been substituted for another of that ilk. Engage him at your peril people!!
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24. At 1:59pm on 22 Oct 2009, InfrequentAllele wrote:
"
Are you incapable of posting anything positive? I wanted to hear your 1690 reasons for voting Labour. "
Stop !!!!!!! Stop!!!!!!! ma ribs cannae tak it atween 'at an "brownresolute"'s "PERTENDERS" in the previous post ah'll hae tae lie doon!!!!
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Online Ed Here
Comment 59 referred.
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59. brownresolute
Vote Labour: Keep the "joke" around your neck?, "Aspiring to no aspirations.", "Well naybidy else wid dee it ony better...", Coz they're the red ones????, Because they DID deliver that socialist utopia. Woohoo!
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61. kenstor
And Scotland is a nation. Easy isn't it 8-)
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kenstor:
#61
"re "stick a red rosette on a monkey" this just about sums up the writers own level. i dont know who you vote for or represent, probably snp, but to insult people because they dont agree with you is despicable. is that what happens when canvassing. it might have escaped your notice, but glasgow is in scotland, and its people are also scots."
You've lost the high ground. You disliked a poster's claim that Labour could stick a red rosette on a monkey and that monkey would still be elected, yet continue your own prejudice remarks and dismissing that poster as 'most likily an SNP member or supporter'.
Your not any better, I also would ask you not to simply claim another person as an SNP voter or member based on nothing more apart from your own prejudice judgements. Even if they were a member, they certainly do not represent everyone, create their policies or even are authorised to speak for the party.
Have a little respect.
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RE 63
''You are simply criticising the Catholic Church, are you arguing prospective Parliamentarians cannot be catholic!! ''
I have been critical of both political parties. I made no mention of any church, howebver if the Catholic church backed Pinochet and Franco fascism then I make no apology for my anti fascist stance.
The church, I assume, choose to be anti-gay, anti stem cell research, anti abortion, anti contraception and anti womens rights. If that is the case then it is the church who you should be asking to justify their position, not me.
In addition to these points I would like to add that I loathe the 'Act of Settlement', does this answer your accusation?
Wansanshoo.
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Just saw your bit on Reporting Scotland Brian, I loved your explanation of the bi-election.
" The seat was made vacant by Speaker Michael Martin's elevation to the Lords"
Call yourself a political journalist? Why didn't you at least stick to the truth. Michael Martin was only recently "elevated" to the Lords, he was the first Speaker in modern times to be ejected from his position and his seat, almost six months ago Brian. That's a fact. Remember those?
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#65 U14094468
The 'voice-over' at the start of Alex Salmond's speech was on BBC2. We had switched on especially to hear it and were furious when that happened.
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Derek you are very good at spouting rubbish but I noticed that you have kept your head down over the question of the Orange Order. I'll ask you again, do you support the Orange Order's offer of helping Labour to win the Glasgow NE seat? It is a simple question, let's see if you can answer it.
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65
"Now, I'm pretty sure I was watching BBC2 Scotland and not the news channel referred to. I'm also certain that the voice was not that of a female as claimed in this response - can anyone else confirm this?"
I can! I was shocked that some MALE numptie was just bletherin away.
I heard Uncle Tim Murphy on the radio tonight pontificating on the evils of the BNP and how we can't stay silent and must challenge them. Excuse me but haven't we had fascist bully boys supremacist marches in Glasgow where uncle Tim..........sorry Jim comes from for donkey's years. Yet this silence does not extend to hearing any condemnation of this supremacist grouping coming out to support London New Labour.
Why is it ok to be silent over fascist hate groups in our own country yet take them to task in another?
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# 43 cynicalHighlander
Interesting comment put on this blog.
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sitting on the boat coming back from Stornoway today I went to buy a paper to pass the time, and then I caught myself in time and saw they had books on sale.
I saw a book about the Jacobites and thought why not.
It was a good read and good value at £1.99.
Now without taking the Jacobite view or the Government view the over riding point of Scotland's history through out this time going from the Power struggle in Scotland after James did a runner to France, through Darien, through the union of the crowns through the union the clearances and on, is the wee man or woman always got the smelly end of the stick.
Much blood was spilt, many lives lost and are we any better off for it ?
no
So no matter it be Tory or Labour or SNP or Liberal or Green or whatever
unless we want to keep replaying history over and over again, we need to break everything to its lowest common denominator and the priorities should be the same for all parties
1. No poverty or hunger in Scotland
2. Remove the link between church and state (it causes way too many arguments)
that also means looking forward so no marches, no single faith schools, you can have your faith but it will not go beyond your front door.
3. Gain independence purely because its the right thing to do, small is better and no matter what way you dress it up Westminster does not have Scotland on its list of priorities and the thing they call democracy as it is served up just now is a busted flush.
4.Sack everyone in the Scottish Parliament
5.Get rid of the legal eagles and re write the laws to suit a modern Scotland with laws we all know are right
6. Introduce local representatives to form a new Governmemt ie do away with the parties the system has been tried and it does not work.
Ah but how do we control the corrupt of the useless , simple the local reps can be sacked and a new independent one voted in
7.Establish local groups to give control of their local areas to them in terms of policing, services, meals on wheels etc etc etc
to encourage community spirit communities need to be in control.
8.There will be a short sharp shock for the neddies and the hoodies I am afraid, but it will have to be endured by this part of the community, besides it will seem like a holiday compared to the youngsters being sent to the middle east to get either killed or maimed currently
9.I will leave 9 onwards for everyone to fill in the blanks
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5. At 12:10pm on 22 Oct 2009, StirlingSpiel:
"Labour candidates running campaigns on devolved issues is nothing new. Lindsay Roy somehow managed to get away with it in Glenrothes."
Didn't Roy not run his campaign on local government issues rather than even devolved Holyrood stuff?
Either way I fail to see the relevance, because either way the Labour party hasn't got a leg to stand on. Holyrood- what they going to say to gain votes? Westminster? Nah. So it really doesnt matter.
All that matters is an SNP postive campaign. AVOID "BROKEN BRITAIN" stuff it will backfire.
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61. At 5:10pm on 22 Oct 2009, kenstor wrote:
"re "stick a red rosette on a monkey" this just about sums up the writers own level. i dont know who you vote for or represent, probably snp, but to insult people because they dont agree with you is despicable. is that what happens when canvassing. it might have escaped your notice, but glasgow is in scotland, and its people are also scots."
Are you not reading a little too much into that comment?
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63.
Firstly let me make it clear, I loathe the 'Act Of Settlement', I hope that clarifies my stance on whether specific religions could stand as parliamentarians or prime ministers.
My anti fascist stand on Pinochet & Franco will be welcomed by all who contribute to this blog, including yourself I hope?
Are you saying it was official church and Opus Dei policy to back fascist military dictators in the shape of Pinochet & Franco?.
Scientists have made great discoveries in spite of the religious campaign against scientific reasoning and logic.
Mr Kelly has CHOOSEN to be anti gay, anti stem cell research, anti contraception and to deny women the opportunity to become priests. Mr Kelly made that choice when he joined Opus Dei.
Wansanshoo.
Nationalist & Anti Theist.
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73. U14094468
Ditto only I got this response:
"Further to your complaint about some of the content on a BBC blog (reference number ....), we have decided that it does not contravene the House Rules and are going to leave it on site."
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"..... (Mark) Thompson says ministers would have to impose a broadcasting ban ...on the (BNP) party before the BBC would consider breaching its "central principle of impartiality".
"...breaching its "central principle of impartiality".
Just how ridiculous does that statement sound in terms of how BBC Scotland has and is behaving towards the SNP?
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# 65 U14094468
Because I live in England and cannot get BBC Scotland I watched the speech on the BBC parliament channel and I can confirm that the first few minutes of his speech was spoken over by a male voice. Feel free to use my name if you want to re-complain.
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Anent the impending bye-election - I've always been very suspicious that our so called democratic process is nothing but a big con. We (you, actually, since I live in Virginia) are actually governed and controlled by an un-elected establishment consisting of a more or less 50/50 mix of big money and old families. Our MPs head off to London where they hope to become the vassals of this establishment and derive a comfortable standard of living thereby. I hope that this doesn't extend to MSPs or SNP MPs but I have no way of knowing. As an example - in a recent thread there was reference to a dinner held at the home of 'the biggest Scottish donor to the Tory party'; a dinner to which the only Scottish Tory MP wasn't invited, perhaps because his unsuitability to replace Mr. Murphy was going to be discussed. Apparently the idea being floated is that Michael Forsyth should be enobled and given the job. Now - do you see what I mean? I don't think that this a purely Tory phenomenon, though, just look how many policies the lobby-fodder in the Labour, Tory and Lib-Dem parties dutifully vote for and how unrelated they are either to their manifestos or the stances they took when asking the voters for the job.
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I cannot believe the number of Scots who are happy to be ruled from London, and are happy that our country cannot master its own way out of this recession because of our severe lack of fiscal autonomy and our squandered oil wealth, c'mon guys wake up
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Online Ed Here
79. At 6:55pm on 22 Oct 2009, raisethegame wrote:
#65 U14094468
The 'voice-over' at the start of Alex Salmond's speech was on BBC2. We had switched on especially to hear it and were furious when that happened.
I have further complained about the inaccuracies of the original email response and pointed out that it was in fact a male voice and it was BBC 2.
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82. gedguy2
So I see and he allegedly lives in hotel accomodation for 3 days!
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80. gedguy2
Derek you are very good at spouting rubbish but I noticed that you have kept your head down over the question of the Orange Order. I'll ask you again, do you support the Orange Order's offer of helping Labour to win the Glasgow NE seat? It is a simple question, let's see if you can answer it.
We're still waiting for him to Lodge a complaint.
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#93
I also heard it quite clearly and it was a male voice.
I made a comment on an earlier blog about it being probably due to impartiality considerations, but I think that one has been debunked.
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It will be interesting to see how the BBC respond to the 'Salmond speech' incident now that it is abundantly clear that their initial response was inaccurate.
Will William Bains place of work/residency receive the coverage it deserves. If Bain has registered on the electorl role for Hammersmith has he voted in that constituency?
I think that Bain ought to, at the very least, be given the opportunity to answer these questions, the reason being that Bain has made this one of the major issues in this by-election.
I wonder if we'll see a by-election where the Labour candidate fields no awkward questions on issues he himself has campaigned on.
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Comment 92 referred
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Online Ed and Others -
If you do a 'People' search on www.192.com, on William Bain in SW6, you will see that there is only one William Bain in SW6 and that he is/was on the electoral roll there.
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evening ,
could anyone explain why the deputy chairman of the BBC has just appeared on the news and spouted this
"the BBC's central principal of impartiality."
Is BBC Scotland and it's employee's exempt from this central principal? or does he just use this excuse when it suits him?
Sid
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Online Ed Here
William Bain's latest ploy is to have a picture that depicts Alex Salmond superimposed on a womans body apparently dancing with George Osborne the Tory shadow secretary.
Add 'sleazy' campaigning to the list of questions for Bain to field.
Thanks to George Lairds axcellent blog for highlighting this.
There's a plentifull supply of questions for Bain to field ...... now all we need is one journalist.
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#86 Wananshoo
Chill.
If you want a discussion on the Catholic Church then speak to a priest. I'm sure he'll clear up these misconceptions.
And I wouldn't bother replying - I'm tired and I'm not gonna get drawn into a silly argument...
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2693811/Outrage-at-schools-boss-278k-quit-deal.html
More Labour "keep-it-in-the-family" corruption exposed.
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105. U14094468
Labour Candidate William Bain's homophobic poster won't go down well in Glasgow North East
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Anyone know what the process is to challenge Returning Officers if an individual registered to vote in two different constituencies and both votes were cast in the same elction e.g. General Election or Euro Election?
I'd like to do so in the case of one William Bain but can't find the mechanism to do so.
Fortunately one of the two constituencies I'd like to check the polling records is not Glenrothes...
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45. eye_write
I a, unsure about how to respond to your post. I do not advocate not trying, nor did I say this in my post. Are you trying to misinterpret everything so you can turn intoa SNP rant? Or do you just not read the post?
I do not advocate not trying. I never advocate not trying, if so why would I bother posting here. I only do so because I believe that politics is important. But the rub here is the quality of the politics.
My point is our political parties should be answering the issues that the people of Glasgow want answered. Read what Brian is saying, people are becoming more disillusioned with politics, because the results are the same no matter who you vote for. I know you will not agree with that,but that is a growing feeling.
the start to this campaign is absolutely woeful. Wansanshoo puts the whole thing in perspective, but really is the person so important, or is it the policies that we should be debating?
What will make the difference to the people of Glasgow? Arguments about the individuals or arguments about the policies?
I never give up, I don't accept the current debate which is rooted in the past.
As I have said many times before to you, I don't completely oppose independence. But I am not going to vote for something because it is the least worst option. And that is the standard of debate just now.
With regard to my vote counting for nothing in Westminster, It doesn't count for much in Holyrood. Okay Independence might help if you live in the Central belt doesn't do much for the Highlands.
So without a bit of vision and a bit of an idea of where we would be going no is the answer just now.
However just because I don't agree with the sterile politics we have just now which totally bereft of original thinking, don't accuse me of not trying.
I try to point out that the issues we should be dealing with just now are things like our education system, investment in new business, creating a culture of innovation, tackling low esteem and underachievement, poverty etc. All devolved issues. Okay I accept the financial argument, but given unlimited money I still don't see the ideas that will make the changes.
That is what I believe to be important, and I want to see some original thinking over the post banking crisis, which no party has even started to deal with, how we provide better services in times of less, how we build a new economy.
Things that make a real difference.
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106. RyogaHibiki
"Chill.
If you want a discussion on the Catholic Church then speak to a priest. I'm sure he'll clear up these misconceptions.
And I wouldn't bother replying - I'm tired and I'm not gonna get drawn into a silly argument..."
So, we should just ignore what you say?
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63. impeachblair3
It is wrong that you try to stigmatise posters by being so shallow that the view of Opus Dei can only come from Dan Brown. Use Google, people can read for themselves. This is a typical stunt to try to belittle genuine questions that you find difficult to answer.
However Wansanshoo makes a very good point. To Wansanshoo I say very well said. However we will only change this by opening the debate and talking about it. Talking using facts will change peoples opinions, create a more tolerant Scotland.
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106. RyogaHibiki
It is not a question on the Catholic Church, but on a particular Sect. Is this the way you deal with awkward questions? Just ignore them? Are these questions less important than where the guy lives?
Surely not?
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110. northhighlander
"I a, unsure about how to respond to your post. I do not advocate not trying, nor did I say this in my post. Are you trying to misinterpret everything so you can turn intoa SNP rant? Or do you just not read the post?"
I also noted your post, and (like eye_write, i'm sure) I read it.
You wrote 5 sentences - 3 of which were disparaging of the SNP - so it's a little rich accusing eye_write of turning her post into an 'SNP rant' as you helpfully phrase it.
The balance of your post contained a sentence telling us what the campaign wasn't (no susprises for sticking to your negative MO there), closed off by some comment about how this kind of campaign tars all politicians...
So, some negative comments about the SNP, a bit about why the campaign is wrong, finished by why it tarnishes politicians. A pretty negative post when you look at it - which can be fine, critique is valuable, but far better when balanced by positive or proactive statements of alternative or dialogue, but that's the stuff you fail to provide. Meanwhile eye_write expounds with passion her motivation in seeking independence.
You of course, respond by accusing her of turning her post into an SNP rant.
Sad.
So, given that in your view no political party has the ideas we require, what do you advocate we do?
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If you cant take a yolk, then you are to serious.
Is someone just referring for referral sake?.
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89. gedguy2
Glad we cleared this up, I feel so much better for it.
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Well, Nick Griffin certainly is banal.
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Onescotlandmanyscots:
#115.
"It is not a question on the Catholic Church, but on a particular Sect. Is this the way you deal with awkward questions? Just ignore them? Are these questions less important than where the guy lives?
Surely not?"
I don't see whats awkward but what I see is an individual itching to point out the different religous differences this man has, surely it does not matter the religion one follows and how it's followed?
The issue on where the individual lived was quite important because the Labour candidate painted themselves as the local hero, of course this man apparently works and lives in London along with his immediate family members. If a man can't be honest about his working and living arrangments then would trust that man to effect policy over this country?
I would quickly point out that it would be foolish to believe the SNP candidate follows the Catholic sect to the bone. Can you tell me how much and how deep they follow the sect? I suspect not, but I don't expect it to stop you making it an issue.
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re:# 113. onescotlandmanyscots:
"Talking using facts will change peoples opinions, create a more tolerant Scotland"
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Sensible discussion without prejudice, open to both changing peoples opinions and having a change in opinion is best way to talk about these things.
Probably isn't the place for it here though. I enjoy talking about philosophy and theology but I imagine it would annoy people who want to talk about politics on this political blog.
There is of course the proviso that (as I was trying to suggest a bit more subtly earlier) there were no facts in Wananshoo's #86 post.
P.S I always find google isn't great for balanced fact-finding. I find Wikipedia is pretty good but am always on the look out for new sources!
And I am very tired and am off to bed. 'night folks!
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Well, I gave question time 3 z's.
I used to watch it a lot, but haven't for some time, I think I'll revert to that.
Griffin was visibly nervous, and the rest of the panel basically had a go at him for the duration. The most horrific thing is that the rest of the panel came across as lightweight as Griffin himself, and strangely desperate to boot.
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A neutral article!! Clearly the comments from the shoppers were too pro SNP for it to be anything else.
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120. Thomas_Porter
"along with his immediate family members"
It's important not to repeat rumours as fact - especially when they have been demonstrated to be false. Bain is a single. I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise.
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It always gives me great heart to see the opposition attempting to drag the campaign on to something completely unrelated to the issues of the seat.
The Labour party and their pathetic supporters trying to make it an issue about Kerr's religion will be about as successful as their attempts to associate John Mason with the Masonic Order in Glasgow East. Seems bizarre to put a catholic area off a candidate by pointing out his catholic beliefs though.
Glasgow North East remains like any other seat though, its not a warzone of religion, its an economically deprived area where the people are looking for the government to help them out of their poverty and improve their lives socially as well as economically.
I think Kerr should stick to showing people what the SNP have achieved, raising spending in Glasgow to the highest per head of anywhere in Scotland, putting 1000 extra officers on the street after only two years in a minority government and protecting Scottish jobs and the Scottish economy and services from the worst of Labour's mismanagement.
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#115 onescot...
a wee point -
I explained that it is silly to call opus dei a sect on post #444 on the last blog.
from wikipedia "sect" page:
T"he historical usage of the term sect in Christendom has had pejorative connotations, referring to a group or movement with heretical beliefs or practices that deviate from those of groups considered orthodox."
please stop calling it a sect. it is a religious order.
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jack straw deflected all the questions put to him onto Nick griffin, notice how he shut up when Griffin came up with the statement about Sharia Law, the number of soldiers being killed in illegal wars etc, the programme was a circus and as the lady at the end said, people in this country are intelligent enough to understand that the BNP are a non starter.
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121. RyogaHibiki
"Probably isn't the place for it here though. I enjoy talking about philosophy and theology but I imagine it would annoy people who want to talk about politics on this political blog."
I disagree, i think that there are many contexts where philosophy and theology are directly relevant to a political thread. Not least the place of religion in the definition and governance of society.
Individuals who are elected are fairly subject to scrutiny, if they belong to any organisation which implies certain positions of ethics or politics it is surely a pertinent topic, it should not be excluded because it's religious.
So it's not a discussion about the Catholic Church per se, it's about a candidate's affiliations and how it relates to their potential political role. I'll not even bother with the 'talk to a priest' bit.
Also re wansanshoo's #86, i don't know about the Vatican's (let alone Opus Dei's) position on homosexuality, but isn't wansanshoo factually correct that it is against contraception and stem cell research?
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Oldnat:
#124.
To be fair I did say apparently ;-)
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This was an appalling programme!
I don't have much time for the BNP but I would have liked to have heard what Griffin was trying to say. The other panelists acted like attack dogs, butting in on everything he was trying to say and Dimbleby wasn't much better. It wasn't his finest hour at controlling a proper discussion!
I thought Jack Straw was trying to do a filibuster and get all the time to himself. His arguments were so long and complicated that I lost interest within seconds. The Tory woman knew what her arguments were.
Some of the comments from the other pannellists just emphasised their partiality in certain things like immigration. The whole thing was a big let down. More heat than light.
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Next month sees the second series of BBC's History of Scotland.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6886250.ece
the famous phrase “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” had been penned by Witherspoon who was minister of Beith in North Ayrshire before he went to Paisley and then to America.
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I am a little curious about the amount of enthusiasm being displayed on what seems to me to be a complete non-event bye-election. I'd like to ask posters, irrespective of which party gets elected, what would be your view of the state of your respective parties if turnout is less than 35 per cent of the electorate? Would this suggest that you are building up a good head of steam for the General Election? Would such a low turnout concern you?
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130. hamish42
"This was an appalling programme!"
I agree. Badly constructed programme I thought. Much more appropriate to English politics if it had been it’s normal format. Just because the BNP were there, no need to make them centre stage.
In any case, Diane Abbbott on Andrew Neil was right, a London audience was rather inappropriate. Since the BNP strength is in the English North, that’s where the programme should have come from.
Few in the North of England like London any more than we do. An effective programme would have had local people challenging Griffen, rather than the metropolis. London-centrism doesn't help the North of England and never has.
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Apparently Charles the 1st was born at Dunfermline Abbey in the year 1600, I believe that a plaque on a wall just outside the Abbey tells the tale of how a dagger blew into the room where Charles was born and landed right beside the king to be.
Religion, maybe too touchy and provocative.
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132. MagisterIlluminatus
"turnout is less than 35 per cent of the electorate?"
So high? The by-election in Birmingham Hodge Hill turnout was 37.89% in July 2004, when the GE was almost a year away. There are certainly ones which have been lower - exceptionally 8.5% in Poplar South in 1942!
I suspect this one could be one of the lowest as it will affect nothing in a Parliament which doesn't deal with most local issues, and a GE only 6? months away, in a constituency where they probably have noticed no difference not having had a Westminster MP for the last 6 months anyway.
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What did seem to resonate from QT was that several of the panel thought there was not such a thing as British identity, whether it's English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish and when Straw did make that comment the audience did applaud.
It seems many like the idea of multiculturalism.
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110. northhighlander
I had a look and read some stuff about this Bain guy everyone's been talking about. I'd never heard of him...had no views about him. Looked at his website. You know what I thought? My honest reaction - the poor folk of Glasgow are just going to get let down again.
The video was a well executed, cynical attempt to appeal to him being local, their pal. Policies pretty much only "fighting" for more money for them! More pension, higher minimum wage! Clearly Labour think that is all these folk will be interested in. It's cruel, as realistically he isn't going to deliver on that. It was a bribe, a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, which speaks volumes about what Labour actually thinks of these constituents. The knife crime thing was clearly a "What do they go on about the most" answer. How can he actually implement that - it's a justice matter? It's a con. The "homely" images were almost a caricature, certainly a stereotype. It was quite disgusting. Glaswegians deserve better than that. Better than being conned - and forgotten.
I thought, the true face of Labour, and I am angry that they treat our/your neighbours that way, treat anyone that way - Scots that way. It's uncaring.
Oh, and the website included tabs where you could vote on which of the SNP's "ripping off Glasgow" actions had angered you most. I checked - they were clear lies. The constituents of Glasgow North obviously don't merit receiving the truth. Con them by any means. This is 2009! It's shocking.
My late mother in law was from a similar area culturally, that wasn't well off, and she was the sort of person who would have voted for Labour's line, thinking she was doing the right thing, believing them in good faith. She wouldn't have known who else to vote for actually, just had to wait (and wait) for Labour to deliver. It's disgusting that Bain would pretend to know what she wants, pander to ensure her vote and ignore her. They take them all for granted. Don't blame the "stupid people" for keeping voting Labour. Blame Labour for actively cheating these people, their fodder. I'm reminded of Foulkes quote on an "underclass".
Nothing's changed. Nothing has changed for years there.
Nothing will change....under Labour's rule.
Not good enough. No way good enough. I'm not accepting it, and the next generation of Scots won't accept it. I was in Glasgow a week ago and I felt sorry for the place - bad reputation etc. But there's something about it, its potential. I think it needs "someone to take it under its wing". It seemed like a city betrayed.
I'll try and answer your other points sometime tomorrow.
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110. northhighlander
My posts might be getting up your nose, but Scotland's current situation is so not good enough, and there's really nothing I can do about it.
If I could help you in the highlands I would. Scotland's cake clearly needs to be cut up so that area gets more of the share so it can effectively deliver services in the places that face challenges in doing this. It's only responsible. So is that better decided locally or centrally? I'd guess local decisions are better tailored to these situations. But we need central government.
(So local budgets are applied for? Projects set out in them. Local community representatives put together the case in these applications to the national purse...)
As for your vote not counting at Holyrood. Perhaps the highlands are underrepresented? Maybe there should be a separate Secretary for that area? Don't know, but it does have separate issues, perhaps is more vulnerable because of that. This probably does need to be recognised. You compare the highlands with Scotland - an area of a nation, with an area (nation) in a state. So I see what you mean when you infer swapping one vulnerable situation for another. While accepting the similarity, the question is how can it be tackled?
We know there is no interest in that direction from Westminster, and it's not likely to be forthcoming - it sees Scotland as the "bit over there" never mind the highlands. So your only chance is through Holyrood. It is your national parliament. In that there is hope at least.
I don't know yet what the SNP have done, are doing or are proposing to do to offer better government for the highlands. Maybe some readers do? But I do know that is the way to get change, as the Holyrood government can make such changes, if it wants to. If enough of us wanted that sort of change, they'd have to listen. A minority group in Scotland does have a say. The Greens don't have a big representation but their views are heard, their policies are looked at. If you could show that improvements to address governance of the highlands could benefit all of Scotland
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#138 Oops, hadn't pruned that one down. Oh, well, ignore if you want :-)
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106.
''If you want a discussion on the Catholic Church then speak to a priest. I'm sure he'll clear up these misconceptions.''
There are no misconceptions.
Opus Dei are anti gay, anti stem cell research and anti contraception.
As a nationalist and anti theist I do not believe Mr Kelly is appropriate for public office.
Wansanshoo.
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I have insufficient religion to get involved in arguments over the nature of Opus Dei, but would like to pose a simple question.
If the Labour Party once considered membership of Opus Dei was no bar to elevating Ruth Kelly to a senior cabinet post in Westminster; why should it be raised (however quietly) as an issue in this by-election?
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I watched Question Time last night and was a little disturbed to see the way in which their guest, the leader of the BNP, was treated. The man was ganged up on right from the start. I would go as far as to say that the whole programme was designed to be an anti-BNP programme, probably designed to deflect comment from the BBC's decision to allow the leader of the BNP to appear on the programme. Let's get this clear; I do not support the BNP, have never supported the BNP and never will support the BNP. However, in a democratic society (I wish I lived in one) everyone has the right to put forward their own political views. This programme was a 'witch hunt' and I suspect that it may have been better for the viewer if the leader of the BNP was allowed to put over his points. I am sure that if this happened then the discerning British public would easily have seen through his ruse. On the whole I think the BBC should be ashamed at the way in which it treated its guest.
Still no reply from Derek if he supports Labour allowing a bigoted organisation, the Orange Order, to help them in their quest to retain the Glasgow NE seat. I asked the same question, in a previous blog of Brian's, to Dean and northighlander, only Dean has had the curtesy to reply. Come Derek and northighlander, do you support the use of the Orange Order helping Labour?
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# 140 Wansanshoo
Opus Dei are anti gay, anti stem cell research and anti contraception
Are you saying that all people who hold those views should be banned from public office? If so, then there will be very few people available for public office.
It is not too important what someone's religious and moral views are but how they will represent their constituency that matters. My own personal views on homosexuality is that I don't like it, would never want to be a homosexual and don't understand why they want to be that way. However, I support their right to be homosexual and would fight to defend their private sexual preferences as I strongly believe that they have just as much right to live a full and happy life as I do. My, having those personal views, wouldn't detract one iota from my ability, if I was their MP, from helping them as best as I could. Surely Kerr should be given that respect too?
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141.
Ruth Kelly's career was blighted by her affiliation to Opus Dei, I say affiliation as she refused to confirm or deny her membership.Even the infamous wikipedia explains her inability to justify an 'Equality' ministerial position, here are two examples:
''Out of fourteen votes during the Blair government that have concerned equal gay rights, Ruth Kelly had only attended two.''
'' Kelly was also criticised for refusing to comment on whether she considered that homosexuality is a sin.''
There are of course many more should you care to research, I hope this helps.
Wansanshoo.
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142.
At no stage did I suggest Mr Kerr should be banned for standing for public office, what I am saying is that the organisation he chose to join is homophobic,this is not in the best interest of the SNP or the people Mr Kelly wishes to represnt. Other than that I generally agree with your post.
Wansanshoo.
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Online Ed Here
First up:
BBC Radio Scotland presenter this morning opined that were not the BNP actually the English National Party. Quite a slur on the very many and overwhelming proportion of English people who would not touch this party with a barge pole.
There are of course other extrapolations to be made from this 'mischievous' statement from a BBC Scotland presenter - more on that parhaps later.
Second:
BBC running a tabloidesque item based around a European announcement on tobacco pricing. The headline gives the impression that the pricing relates to alcohol, it doesn't - furthermore it is as yet only an opinion.
The BBC have also borrowed the 'dealt a major blow' phrase from our less than balanced newspapers. The article is a straightforward attack on the SNP's minimum pricing policy for alcohol and of course offers Labour and the rest a welcome platform to attack the SNP.
I wonder if this is yet another inappropriate BBC headline that we will see morph as the day goes on.
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Whisky no more?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8321546.stm
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gedguy2,
Thought last night's question time was a circus. How can you disect the man's beliefs if you won't let him speak. In saying that, I thought Bonnie Greer came out of it reasonably well. Her tone was just right, not too confrontational and gently mocking.
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#86: Wansanshoo -
Who is this "Mr Kelly" you keep blethering about? The SNP candidate for Glasgow NE's name is David Kerr
If you can't get that right . . . what are we to assume about the veracity of everything else you post?
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91 nate_oz
You have hit the nail squarely on the head. The people in Scotland seem to have an inate fear of taking responsibility, why run a country when you can let someone else do it and then moan when they get it wrong, we Scots love to moan don't we. We fight back when people say we are too small, too stupid and incapable of running this little country, yet we never stand up and be counted when we have the chance (well may be now people will realise that we need to take responsibility and start looking at ourselves and when the other parties finally agree to a referendum we can make that choice).
I also agree with the question that should be put to every Labour politician in Scotland "would you rather be in an independant Scotland under a labour party or in the union under a Tory" why not go further and ask everyone of those red tinted life long Labour supporters the same question.
May be the thought of looking too far into the future realising that possibly once we are independent, that our government might be Labour controlled or SNP controlled or LIB DEM contolled or even worse case scenario Tory controlled. Is beyond most Scots.
Just another wee point Tavish Scott represents Shetland an Island that has an oil fund that they may use for what ever purpose serves best the Shetland isles, this is the man who does not want us to have choice in a referendum and possible letting us have control of what left of the oil revenue to do best for the Scottish people.
I always wonder if it is my maths please correct me if this is wrong, but does it matter if a barrel of oil is pound or £100 surely split per head of Scotland's population it would go further than split per head of entire UK??
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#140 wananshoo
"Opus Dei are anti gay, anti stem cell research and anti contraception"
Opus Dei are an organisation which promote prayer and acts of charity as a means of knowing God. I refer you to read about the order before passing judgement.
The rest of your comments are accusations against Catholicism.
The Catholic Church is not anti-gay. That is an offensive statement. The stance is that extra-marital sex is detrimental to relationships between the people involved and relationship with God. Sexual orientation is irrelevent.
Some Catholics are sadly homophobic, through their own bigotry and ignorance. I'm sure Mr Kerr is not.
Stem cell research is absolutely fine. Embryonic stem cell research is not approved, but is expensive and less fruitful than other forms of stem cell research.
Right enough contraception is also considered damaging for much the same reasons as above.
I'm glad we've dropped the ridiculous accusations of fascism. As I say, please do a wee bit of research before writing insulting accusations.
...
"As a nationalist and anti theist I do not believe Mr Kelly is appropriate for public office"
...
"At no stage did I suggest Mr Kerr should be banned for standing for public office"
...
"Firstly let me make it clear, I loathe the 'Act Of Settlement'"
...
"anti-theist"?
So you have a problem with how millions of people live their lives?
As I said before - if you have a problem with the Catholic Church than speak to a priest to clear up misconceptions - that's much better that me
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149.
I was previously posting a reply on Ruth Kelly, I simply muddled the names. You can, if you wish, assume the veracity of Opus Dei's homophobic stance. This is in my opinion contrary to the views of the S.N.P.
Wansanshoo.
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ahumscottish2
I occasionally read the Shetland Times online, they do some good things with the oil fund up there.
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Re Griffin and his odious BNP, Iain Macwhirter has an amusing but thought-provoking take on his blogspot.
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151.
Pinochet and Franco had members of Opus Dei in their fascist dictatorships.
I cannot make it any clearer.
Wansanshoo.
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gedguy2 #143
I don't think that people choose their sexuality, gay people could no more choose to be straight than you could choose to be gay. You either are or you aren't.
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Online Ed Here
I may have misheard or it may have been a slip up, but in this mornings radio Scotland phonein I'm sure the host refers to the SNP in the same sentence as referring to BNP policies.
Will check later to confirm.
Phone in confirms my belief on the circus that was broadcast on the BBC last night - it may evoke sympathy for this guy Griffin.
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Brian you wrote:
"Virtually everyone I spoke to made the link between crime and a lack of economic opportunity - although several also felt there were members of the community who didn't make enough effort to sort themselves out."
labour, assisted by the tories have created the Springburn’s' of Scotland. labour has seen, for electoral advantage, to keep these places run down, dependant on the state, with little chance of improvement except for extraordinary individuals, exceptions to the rule. What is the motivation for labour or tory to improve prospects for these people? None. Shame on labour, its judgement time!
What is the motivation for SNP to help the people who live in Springburn or similar areas?
SNP by helping the people of Springburn can begin a process where the people’s improvement in living standards is linked to their voting intentions as their lives improve. Support people to help themselves and rid them selves of state dependency. SNP do not have any electoral advantage in keeping these people disadvantaged, marginalised and dependant on hand outs down the generations. SNP’s motivation is there for positive. That these folks lives have not improved is to the shame of labour and indications of how the dead hand of labour impacts peoples lives, daily.
137 summed it succinctly, “She wouldn't have known who else to vote for actually, just had to wait (and wait) for Labour to deliver.”.
To wait for labour is a labour in vain!
Scotland has a future, independence and creating our own opportunities, the same is true of people from Springburn, only the SNP put this offer on the table.
D McN
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116. mrbfaethedee
People get the politics they deserve. If we tolerate the banal and frankly useless debate we have now then in ten years Scotland will have made no progress at all.
We will still be looking at the same problems, wasting money and wondering why it isn't working. If we are independent it will make no difference because we currently don't have the vision or the idea to make a difference.
If we don't ask for more form our politicians we won't get it. Look at the debate, it can be paraphrased as follows. SNP: If we were Independent we would have control over everything and Scotland would be a better place. How, where are the new policies that deal with the problems more effectively?
Labour: No change because everything is fine, maybe a little tinkering with the devolution settlement but crack on. Why? isn't that what the last twen years has been about? Why will the next ten be different? Where are the new policies, new thinking?
LIbdems, depends who you ask and on what day. What are policies?
So lets move on. Suppose money is not an issue. What would each of the parties do? How would they grow our economy? Where just now is the plan to do that? From any party?
All our politicians look at the solution to our problems as finding more power and then more money to rectify the problems. Clearly there needs to be me more substance than that.
Spending more money is not always the answer. Look at education, since devolution we have followed a policy of massive investment in education. That is over 10 years now we have been doing this. The first kids that have gone through the post devolution cycle are now leaving school. We have picked a route different to many countries in europe, evidence would suggest that it is difficult to see any advantage in our choices.
What are all our politicians proposing? More of the same. No review, no changes. Don't consider alternative ideas, don't try to innovate, don't accept that maybe we are wrong. Where is the debate? stuck on class sizes, by both parties. Where it has been for the last 10 and more years.
I stress I don't know if we are wrong, but the performance indicators would show that we should at least be looking. Very seriously.
So in summary if we don't demand better we ain't going to see any change. A large part of this is the lack of an effectual opposition, but in truth independence apart the SNP and Labour are not far apart on any issue. Any request for more powers should be framed around the required new thinking.
Independent or not the future requires some very different thinking, money will be tight and we need a little innovative thinking. So far form being negative my view is maybe somewhat despairing, but we need to embrace the future and embrace change.
that is the most important question to answer just now
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#142: Wansanshoo -
"I was previously posting a reply on Ruth Kelly, I simply muddled the names."
Except; you weren't. You made two references to a "Mr Kelly" in your #86 and another one in your #140. Your first mention of Ruth Kelly didn't appear until your #144.
Strange that you should be so determined to link the SNP's candidate for Glasgow NE with the most prominent Labour politician ever to have had questions asked of her about her membership of a particular religious order.
Makes me wonder what your real motivation is here.
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133. oldnat
I agree the programme was poor, even the chair attack Griffin. He deserves it totally, but it could have been done in a way that left no opportunity for anyone to feel sorry for him. Some poor misguided souls might just feel he was picked on.
However the good point was that his utterly repugnant views were given a mainstream airing, not a bad thing at all. Heard Margaret Hodge on the radio yesterday, making sensible observations about the rise of the BNP, saying the action to tackle them is needed in the communities they operate and grow in, as opposed to national vilification.
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158. Donald_McNairn
Okay so you have told us labours failings. What have the SNP done, or going to do that is so much different?
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#160. At 11:20am on 23 Oct 2009, Bandages_For_Konjic wrote: "142: "Wansanshoo - Your first mention of Ruth Kelly didn't appear until your #144.
Strange that you should be so determined to link the SNP's candidate for Glasgow NE with the most prominent Labour politician ever to have had questions asked of her about her membership of a particular religious order."
To be fair to Wansanshoo, I was the one who brought Ruth Kelly into the argument by pointing out the hypocrisy of making an issue of Mr Kerr's membership, when it previously proved no impediment to Mrs Kelly's elevation to a senior cabinet post at Westminster.
As to Wansanshoo's response that membership "blighted" her career I would in fact argue the opposite. She abstained (by her absence) from participating in debates/votes where party policy conflicted with her beliefs and ultimately resigned for that reason. It certainly blighted as in foreshortened her career, but her resignation came about as a very commendable matter of principle.
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Post 159 I think Paul Weller best summed it up in "Going Underground" in saying
"the public gets what the public wants".
As long as people keep reading what Rupert Murdoch wants them to read in the Sun or what Gordon Brown's mates want them to read in the Mirror (anyone realise that the Chairman of Lloyds TSB encouraged to take over HBOS by his mate Gordon was previously Chairman of the Mirror?) then the status quo or a variant on it will remain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Blank
Brian can I congratulate you on an excellent piece, as a Sassenach, I can assure you and your regular bloggers that the matters raised on the streets of Glasgow are the same that exercise the electorate in England too.
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159. Northhighlander
Without doubt, the most honest and searing posting I have read on this blog and correct in virtually every single particular. I have to say that the answer to your conundrum is fear.
The public services in Scotland as elsewhere in the UK have become nothing more than a mechanism for protecting the jobs of public servants whether what they do is either meaningful, useful or likely to improve the lives of the people they are meant to serve. Their is no incentive to improve, there is an incentive to empire-build because that is what gets you promoted whether that empire actually does anything other than produce more paper.
Those at the top of the tree in the public services do not know what is going on at ground level due to multiple layers of managers beneath who only tell them what they think they want to hear. Innovation, thinking out of the box, and vision are feared and punished because they represent a threat to the established order and in the final analysis their own jobs. So long as this remains the case, nothing will change. Moreover, it is already clear that the SNP Government has already fallen victim to this institutional inertia and having fallen victim will find it increasingly difficult to break loose.
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159. northhighlander
"Independent or not the future requires some very different thinking, money will be tight and we need a little innovative thinking. So far form being negative my view is maybe somewhat despairing, but we need to embrace the future and embrace change.
that is the most important question to answer just now"
Thanks for the reply.
I don't disagree, my point is that you offer none yourself, nor do you indicate who we should look to for it. Again you tell us what we we lack, what is wrong, but offer nothing to take it in another direction - it's no good telling people we don't have the ideas we need - you need to start the discussions generating those ideas!
As you know, i've not been posting on this blog for too long but I've already had interesting exchanges with fellow posters on radical changes to things like our electoral system and our approaches to our social housing issues.
These exchanges require contributors who are prepared to run run the risk of ideas they advocate being torn apart and/or ridiculed, the upside is that in fact when offered in a spirit of dialogue i find they are responded to in the same spirit. (It helps also when care is taken to avoid party politics and stick the the issues.)
So, again, i would never ask you to point out what you see as failings - only that you also bring something to move the discussion forward sometimes.
(BTW - you didn't give a critique of the tories - did you just forget, or are they inconsequential, or are they awesome?)
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126. RyogaHibiki
If you believe that Opus Dei is actually a part of the mainstream Catholic church as opposed to a sect on the very edge of it, then you arguing that the Catholic Church supports fascism, is homophobic etc etc.
Surely not? This is clearly a Sect. have you read anything on this subject at all? Or do you argue general Pinnochet was not a criminal that should have been tried for crimes against humanity?
Wickipedia is okay, but the art of balanced fact finding on the internet or anywhere else is to view multiple sources with differing opinions and draw your conclusions after analysing the bias in each.
the analysis of Ruth Kelly's voting record is quite interesting, it would seem to indicate that her sect had some influence on how she operated in power. But that is a decision for the voters of Glasgow NE.
Personally I think the issue should be parked, the guy has made a personal choice we must have room in Scotland for all parts of the community. If the voters of Glasgow want such a person representing them, then well that is their choice.
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The BBC deny the right of Alex Salmond to be included in some way in their leaders debate but insist that Griffin has to be given a platform because the BNP has a couple of Euro seats.Not only that, but they select a panel mostly of lightweights to go against him.
Jack Straw's opening contribution was strong,but I suspect it had been written for him because after that he was his usual muddled and ineffectual self.
Imagine if this panel had been debating with Griffin.
Alex Salmond(SNP)
Kenneth Clarke(Tory)
Tony Wright(Labour)
Vince Cable(Lib Dem)
Sorry to use a platitude but they would have wiped the floor with him.
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165. MagisterIlluminatus
"Those at the top of the tree in the public services do not know what is going on at ground level due to multiple layers of managers beneath who only tell them what they think they want to hear. Innovation, thinking out of the box, and vision are feared and punished because they represent a threat to the established order and in the final analysis their own jobs. So long as this remains the case, nothing will change. Moreover, it is already clear that the SNP Government has already fallen victim to this institutional inertia and having fallen victim will find it increasingly difficult to break loose."
It can never change while certain types of decision making for public services are left in the hands of government - it is inherently party political. If someone in a senior public sector position causes some failure by dint of an attempt at innovation, the opposition to whoever is the government on the day will be at it like a dog with a bone. Hardly suprising the the policy is always 'stedy as she goes and don't rock the boat'! Again though, where are the ideas for how to change the culture and the relationships which foster it? Or is it to be privatisation?
During an earlier discussion around education policy, the notion was floated that a body that persisted beyond the various inarnations of governments could be set up after a period of serious research and consultation and be tasked with acheiving and maintaining our education goals over the longer term, i think we ought to look at ideas like this for other public services too.
However, look at the fact that a body was set up to make sure we try get best use of our money regardless of party politics, and when it makes a decision that can be politicized it will be - I refer to the procurement service decision to award one of its contracts to TNT over the Royal Mail. All political parties and political supporters also need to grow up and decide what they want.
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Online Ed Here
In case you hadn't noticed, the UK is still in recession despite the much trumpetted predictions to the contrary from this mornings BBC Radio Scotland [and perhaps other BBC outlets].
Anyone remember how we were best placed to withstand it?
Will it feature in the by-election debate I wonder?
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#159 northhighlander
#165 magister
Independence is different and innovative thinking. Independence is thinking out the box. Independence is vision. The biggest institutional inertia is sticking with Westminster.
Why do you continue to peddle fear, 'we're too wee, too stupid etc' and try and disguise it as reasoned debate.
You's are the ones in institutional inertia because you're too wee, too feart to try living without your Westminster safety blanket.
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160.
It would be foolish of me to invent a link when the Opus Dei link already exists. Both Kelly and Kerr are members of the same ultra right wing conservative organisation with a fascist history.
Pinochet & Franco were fascists, Opus Dei not only supported both regimes, but in fact served in those regimes.
My motivation is simple, I do not want the SNP associated with any form of fascism or homophobia, I have no hidden agenda.
If fascism & homophobia acceptable to you?
Wansanshoo.
Nationalist & Anti Theist.
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#159: northhighlander -
Your post deserves a considered response and I'm going to do my best to provide it with one but to begin with - there are a couple of framing remarks thatI'd like to make.
"Suppose money is not an issue. What would each of the parties do?"
While we're at it - why don't we suppose that in the future Scotland will enjoy 360 days a year of glorious sunshine and an average temperature, in the shade, of 30ºC. We could stop worrying about reviving industry and make all our money from tourism.
Sounds daft - well it is, but then so is even trying to think up solutions to our problems that don't have costs at their heart. Money is everything, as far a good government is concerned.
"Look at the debate, it can be paraphrased as follows. SNP: If we were Independent we would have control over everything and Scotland would be a better place."
Whether or not you degree with it; independence isn't just the SNP's 'top' policy - it's also one that supports many of their other proposals. Any debate about Scotland's future now really has to consider independence and try to work through the two possible scenarios - with independence or without.
The SNP's contention is that the 'with independence' proposal is the better - whether you agree or not, you have to factor independence into your analysis.
Furthermore; any plans for Scotland's future have to be practical and implementable. I'd love to sit here and suggest that Scotland's future will see us all living in flying houses, à la The Jetsons. Obviously, that's not going to happen. So I'm going to keep things within what I think are reasonable and achievable limits.
I'm only going to look at one policy area, for the time being, otherwise we'll be here all day. Let's look at Education, since you've already mentioned that. How might education be improved in a future Scotland?
You've suggested that the education system, as it stands, spends too much money to deliver poor results. I'm not saying I agree with you but here are some improvements I think could be made -
1. Performance in education to be measured by assessing the teachers not the pupils. Scotland no longer publishes school league tables, which is a good thing but it could go further. All indicators of a school's relative success or failure should be based on assessments of the teachers' performances, not the childrens. Good schools will have good teachers, regardless of catchment area etc. This would be relatively cost neutral - as teaching standards are assessed already.
2. Phase out single-faith schools. It's my (personal) opinion that separating children, in whatever way, along religious boundaries is not conducive to raising children with open, enquiring minds. Also, I believe resources should be shared equally across all schools rather than balanced in favour (or disfavour) of schools that are more or less popular because of their religious support. This would be expensive financially as it would, no doubt, lead to a removal of ecumenical funding and it would be very difficult politically but I think that it has to be done.
4. Start viewing education as one joined up whole - rather than schools, higher, further etc. Involve universities more in schools - for example to share expertise and qualified personnel to teach subjects when school's are unable to resource the lessons - involving universities and colleges in gaelic teaching at schools, would be one example. This might lead to some additional costs but it could probably be managed by re-balancing budgets between the different sectors.
5. End the assumption that there has to be a 'class' before a subject can be taught. With modern ICT and support from other schools, colleges and universities - it should be possible to offer a much wider curriculum nationally, with some subjects being taught in schoools on an 'assisted distance learning' basis. This would be expensive to set up but would pay for itself in the long run, I feel.
6. Put an end to Independent Schools charitable status - independent schools are run as businesses, always have been and should be treated as such. Personally; I'd go further and require independent schools to pay a tax on profits to be returned into funding for public sector education. This wouldn't be teribly popular, politically but it would be revenue positive rather than costing the government more money.
So; there you have it. Some ideas, just like you asked for. Have a read and let me know whaat yout think.
One last point, however, I mentioned above the independence has to be included in any consideration of Scotland's future and here's one reason why - you suggested we "suppose money isn't an issue", well money is an issue but - with independence we could establish the energy fund you've heard other posters on here talking about before and use the profits from that investment to fund schools capital building.
We could continue to fund education through more conventional tax revenues but the big, buildings and infrastructure investments could be paid for from the profits of properly invested oil revenues - thus ending the perfidy of PPP/PFI; unshackling the goverment, local authorities and the scottish people from the onerous debts incurred by entering into these schemes; and helping ensure that Scotland's children have the best of environments for their learning and development.
Money matters which is why independence matters.
Scotland's future depends on it.
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Wansanshoo:
#172.
"It would be foolish of me to invent a link when the Opus Dei link already exists. Both Kelly and Kerr are members of the same ultra right wing conservative organisation with a fascist history.
Pinochet & Franco were fascists, Opus Dei not only supported both regimes, but in fact served in those regimes.
My motivation is simple, I do not want the SNP associated with any form of fascism or homophobia, I have no hidden agenda.
If fascism & homophobia acceptable to you?"
Is it acceptable to judge a book by it's cover for it's actions in the past? I could also point out several popes in favour of African slaves but that is not acceptable by anyone thesedays.
I will also point out homophobia is considered normal (not acceptable, but still 'allowed'). I expect many have in their lifetime described someone as homosexual as a way to cause offence to others. The infamous G and P words spring to mind, so it's quite a large problem in our society. For some reason it's still acceptable to pass homosexual comments to attack others. It's not simply a religious taboo. I'd point out that its not only this religious organisation that dislikes homosexuals. I believe Islam is also quite critical and remains unacceptable, so where do you stand here?
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#61 Kenstor quote "re "stick a red rosette on a monkey" this just about sums up the writers own level. i dont know who you vote for or represent, probably snp, but to insult people because they dont agree with you is despicable. is that what happens when canvassing. it might have escaped your notice, but glasgow is in scotland, and its people are also scots."
I agree my freind, it is a sad reality. For your info (since you are interested), I live in The Calton area of Glasgow. This are like many others has for the last 50-60 odd years been let down by consecutive Labour representatives at all levels from Local Authority Councillors to MP's.
Yes, I currently support the SNP but do so on a basis of their policies and their ambition to improve the lot for us mere mortals in Glasgow. It is disappointing (and probably a weakness of democracy) that some individuals are not fully informed of politics and/or do not have a great deal of understanding of the pro's and con's of what exactly it is that they are voting for. Evidence for this is the use of sound-bites and spin by politicians (cos they understand this fact and it is a proven vote winner). Therefore, many voters will vote for historically who their parents/grandparents voted for (the religious divide likely also plats a part).
It is no secret that there is still a large percentage of voters who take no interest in politics, but who will still vote (in the case of Glasgow, mainly Labour), hence my comment that you could put a 'monkey in a red rosette and it would get elected'.
I think this is slowly changing, but it will never be erradicated from politics.
...As far as you comment on whatever 'my own level' is? I will take that with the proverbial pinch of salt (but not too much as we know about heart disease rates in the East-End of Glasgow) *;o)
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Mr Beefaethedee 169
Public services do suffer from this mentality, it will only be changed by a completely different form of government. Local services delivered by local people answerable to those people.
As long as decisions are made in Edinburgh or London the inertia remains.
Central government should set minimum performance standards for services and then ensure these are met. Apart form that decisions should be made at the lowest possible level. This does not exclude sharing back office
functions like payroll etc, some of these can be sensibly centralised.
However where the resources go and how they are used should always be decided with a direct link to those who use them.
If we applied this to education, for example the government would set rules on minimum standards of service provision, do more regular inspections. particularly on school and teacher performance, publish and inform the local decision makers.
Some would be good at it, some would be bad at it. However we would have lot of different idea and the best can be shared. we can and should aim higher.
On the wider education front we need to review the whole thing in a non partisan way. 10 years on from devolution and many years after McChrone, have we improved the standards? We spend a lot of money on pre-school education, is it delivering anything. Would it be better to change the system? Start later, stay longer? The output of the system is concentrated on academic achievement, vocational remains a dirty word. Should it not be developed? Can we not encourage attainment at all levels? Why have kids stay and do 5th and 6th years while they learn nothing? This happens far to often. Choice is a good thing but academic attainment should not be the only choice available
On higher education we need better links between schools and Universities and industry. many students go to Uni with a poor vision of where they want to go, what type of career they want. We should try harder to advise on career options, inspire new ideas inspire careers. Work harder at selling a national vision of where they fit in and why we value them. We also need to build interlinks so people can move between streams and access education at different parts of their life.
One persons thoughts on how more money is not necessarily the answer, but using what we have in better ways.
PS I didn't include the tories becasue they don't really have that much of an influence. Don't see much chance of that changing in a Scottish parliament view. No doubt they will have an influence nationally, but the little we have seen of Cameron lacks any real new thinking, just a bit of Tony, a bit of Margaret and not much else.
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#172 Wansanshoo,
I find your stance against facism and homophobia very honorable.
I'm sure you are aware the SNP took half a million pounds of Brian Souter's money and are therefore very much associated with one of the most high profile campaigners against gay rights, in the form of his support for clause 28.
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Sadly I have to leave the debate as I have a train to catch, however I look forward to Monday.
Wansanshoo.
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BBC fulfilled its duty to uphold due impartiality
come on BBC Scotland, come on Glen in particular, read the above statement. It's your duty as an employee of the BBC, an employee paid with my money to be impartial, IMPARTIAL!!
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171. fifebirder
Fifebirder
At no point in any of my posts do I ever say we are to wee or too stupid etc. Never have never will. I see only nationalists using that misrepresentation on these pages.
Since you describe nationalism as visionary and innovative I would ask you in what way?
Where is the vision of what we will achieve in our first ten years? Where is our vision of what the new Scotland will look like, how it will build a social cohesion and value our citizens in ways it doesn't currently. How our social problems will be dealt with in different ways, in short any vision of change at all.
I genuinely don't see vision. I see politicians wanting more power, wanting to reorganise rather than deal with the problems, effictely I see no new solutions. the mantra appears to be all our problems are linked to the Union, get rid of it the rest will follow. No it won't, not without a lot of thought and hard work. But the hard work can only start when the vision is in place and a cross section of society has bought into it, because it is us the people that will actually make the change, not the politicians. We won't unless most of us are pulling on the rope.
It may be out there and I have missed it if so please point me in the right direction.
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162 "Okay so you have told us labours failings. What have the SNP done, or going to do that is so much different?"
SNP has been in power for 2 1/2 years, in a minority government where it has ben unable to pass key bills due to unioinst parties, e.g. local income tax. This would have benefited many of the poorest members of society.
Whilst London rules over us, the SNP can never be fully or truely judged on its actions. 60 years of labour and tory misrule can not be over come in short term.
A Scotland run by people living in Scotland for Scots, would not saddle itself with PFI, Trident, foreign wars or nuclear power. All of which have and will continue to be disasters. We would target spending at our needs, not an ailing and failing old imperial power.
As for future policies, look at our neighbours in Norway, Sweden and Denmark or Ireland, I'm sure its not outwith the wit of man to copy and adapt their sucess stories.
When have you met an uneducated or poor Scandinavian?
What's the alternative 60 more years of labour and tory misrule?
D McN
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176. northhighlander
"Public services do suffer from this mentality, it will only be changed by a completely different form of government. Local services delivered by local people answerable to those people.
As long as decisions are made in Edinburgh or London the inertia remains."
I'm on board with more localisation of decision making, with the caveat that it still requires coordination across the nation, I'm sure you won't be surprised if I put forward the idea that independence will give you more 'local' national governance, and the act of acheiving it will itself open up almost every aspect of governance to debate and discussion, at which point well-thought out ideas may actually make their way on to the agenda and into reality. I know you've stated that you're not anti-independence per se, which makes me curious as to why (apart from not liking the SNP) you're not more actively pro-independence given your instinct to locate power closer to the people its use affects.
As regards education, first a caveat - I'm not convinced our education is actually bad, and so making changes may not be the right thing to do; we may be better advised leaving it be for a change.
Caveat aside, I agree with you that it would be very good if people could easily 'change course' educationaly throughout their lives, anything which could be efficiently implemented to assist this would be a good thing in my book. This educational flexibility marries well with my own personal view that we spend too much time trying to tell kids they need to decide what they want to be. They frequently don't know until much later in life, and perhaps we should find the right mix of fundamentals that we expect to be taught, topics that more directly relate to the particular interests of kids, and more active participatory work that engages kids in society and community.
I found many good and interesting points in Bandages_For_Konjic's #173, what did you think?
One final thought - my honest belief is that there are a large number of 5th and 6th year pupils not really benefitting, because over the past decade or so, keeping school leavers off the jobless figures has been a top priority - so we keep them at school as long as we can then send them to uni.
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173. Bandages_For_Konjic
Excellent post, 4 & 5 particularly!
back to school for missing 3 though ;)
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Re 172 Wansanshoo:
Okay you have kept banging this drum about Opus Dei supporting Fascism (and therefore the Catholic Church too, as Opus Dei is as much a part of the Catholic hierarchy as the Archdiocese of Glasgow).
Well, saying it over and over again doesn’t make it true.
Where is your evidence? If you can’t supply it (objective please) can you please get off the soapbox and return to the topic in question.
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#183: mrbfaethedee -
"back to school for missing 3 though ;)"
Agreed. Must try harder.
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# 148 snowthistle
I agree, especially about Bonnie Greer.
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# 156 snowthistle
I'm not too sure that I accept this 'black and white' concept of ones sexuality. I tend to think that it is more of a grey area where a fair number of people can choose and do choose.
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Have we had "The SNP will make Scotland have its own time zone" yet on Unionist Bingo - given that it's THAT time of year again ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8321809.stm
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#181 Donald "A Scotland run by people living in Scotland for Scots, would not saddle itself with PFI, Trident, foreign wars or nuclear power. All of which have and will continue to be disasters. We would target spending at our needs, not an ailing and failing old imperial power."
You forgot about the obvious example... 'Edinburgh Trams' *;o)
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180. northhighlander
I have a lot of sympathy with your despair at the lack of vision in any political party. A significant part of this has been the rise of "managerialism" in government, as parties try to come up with detailed policies (which are not tied to any underlying philosophical belief within the party) which they use to claim that their Minister for the appropriate Department will "run" their public services better than those in other parties.
If I wanted to have a Minister who was effectively a "Director of Education" for Scotland, I'm damned sure I wouldn't pick a politician of any party!
It is the job of national government to set overall objectives to allocate resources, and to hold public services to account where they are using resources ineffectively or ignoring the national objectives. It is not their job to define how this should be achieved. Indeed the whole concept that things can be achieved through only a single strategy is patent nonsense.
I know that you have downplayed the importance of the Concordat with COSLA, but I think it will turn out to be one the most significant achievements of this Government. It is hugely difficult to turn around the juggernaut of bureaucracy, and pretty stupid to try to do it quickly. Local Government has been freed of the ring fencing and detailed direction of individual policy initiatives from the centre. What the Concordat has done is to force LAs to take responsibility for their own decisions (that has been very new for them). Some have adapted more quickly than others inevitably, but the inevitable squeals from Labour, in response to local difficulties, that central government has to step in and take detailed control demonstrates the fundamental difference between Labour and SNP.
You say that there is little difference between the two main parties, but comparing their actions says that they are philosophically different.
Labour stemmed from a belief in central planning and control to pursue the Socialist dream. They have abandoned the Socialism but not the central planning and control. Their Party Conference has been emasculated and the membership have no effective say in policy which is entirely centrally determined.
The SNP has embarked on the difficult transition to localism and diversity. It's not the easy way in electoral terms (and they still sometimes do daft things like allowing themselves to be forced into bidding wars on class sizes, for example), and they have a structure through their National Council for members to influence policy and to limit the power of the party hierarchy.
The LDs are not the old Liberal Party, who would have supported the SNP approach. They were captured by the more numerous Social Democrats who came from exactly the same political heritage as Labour, and have shown that by their willingness to accommodate Labour's centralism.
There is a difference between the SNP and the Lab/LD approach. You need to choose between them and support your choice at the ballot box if you want your choice to proceed further.
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RE: 177: bingowings 87
You speak alot of nonsense, yes the SNP did recieve a donation from Brian Soutar, thus because of his support for Scottish Independence due to the benefits to Mr Soutar of this from a business perspective and as a Scottish citizen, in no way at all can you link Mr Soutar's views to that of the SNP. Also regarding Section 2A or clause 28 as it is most commonly known, this was concerned with the promotion of homosexuality in schools through teaching, because a person is against this, does not mean that they are homophobic, many people are against sex education in schools as it is, does this mean they are opposed to heterosexual relationships?
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northhighlander
Innovative thinking depends on evidence of where the problems lie not politicians spouting slogans (I don't accuse you of that!!!!).
Here's some good data on who is being hit by the recession. I have no reason to think the pattern varies in Scotland from these UK figures, as responsibility and resource allocations in these areas largely lie with Westminster.
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/10/how-the-recession-is-hitting-low-earning-households-hardest/
"The white collar recession has not materialised. Instead it is the UK’s 7.2 million low-paid, low-skilled workers at the sharp end of a flexible and global service economy who are being hit hardest. Today’s figures show that the sectors of the economy where these workers are concentrated are sustaining larger declines in overall growth"
I'm sure that a lot of us can think of ways in which the training deficit for the poorly skilled could be mitigated - though UK rules on benefits would need to change.
Innovative thinking anybody?
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#178 Wansanshoo
‘Sadly I have to leave the debate as I have a train to catch, however I look forward to Monday.’
The weekend will at least offer a little respite from your apparent obsession with Opus Dei, then hopefully we can keep on topic.
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And for those who still want to argue about religion, here's some "definitive" polling :-)
http://dizzythinks.net/2009/10/when-online-polls-go-bad.html
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
RE:189: Bongo_1
The Edinburgh trams were strongly opposed by the SNP, and therefore what Donald_McNairn says still stands. What Donald meant by a Scotland run by Scots was I think in reference to the fact that Labour, Tory and Liberals have to appease the sentiments of their parties south of the border and have a conflict of interest whereas the SNP are truely a party for the Scots as they do not have the same interference from London.
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I've been trying to keep out of this topic, but needs must.
I didn't choose to be gay. I didn't wake up one morning when I was a teenager and decide, "You know, I'm going to start fancying men." No one chooses their sexual orientation. All studies agree that sexual orientation is fixed either at birth or in early childhood and is not subject to change. Homosexuality is not my personal preference any more than being left handed or having blue eyes is my personal preference, it's just the way I am.
Sexual behaviour is a private matter. What I get up to with my partner behind closed doors is no one's business but mine and his. In the exact same way the sexual activities which a straight couple enjoy in private are no one's business but their own. However the fact that a person is in a heterosexual relationship is not a private matter, it is a public one. Equally the fact that a person is in a homosexual relationship should not have to be a private matter.
My family is Catholic. When I realised I was gay back in the 1970s in a working class district of Glasgow, I was utterly terrified of the rejection and the very real threat of physical violence that I was likely to face. If I had a choice then I would have chosen not to have to deal with the rejection, fear, and bigotry that gay people experience. But after a few very difficult and painful years, I learned to like myself for who I am. And after a few more painful and difficult years, my Catholic family learned to accept it too.
The Catholic Church does officially support homophobia. The Catholic Church holds that homosexuals are "objectively disordered". The Church enjoins its followers not to indulge in "unjust discrimination", but the key word there is "unjust". Denying gay people the right to marry or to adopt is considered "just" by the Church, in fact the Church considers it a moral necessity. I consider it homophobia. Even worse, according to the document 'Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons’ published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions [i.e lesbian or gay] would actually mean doing violence to these children...”
I am also a father. I have two beautiful daughters who live with their lesbian mothers. One is my biological daughter, the other is adopted. I love both equally. Our family arrangements may strike some people as unusual, but my daughters are happy, well-adjusted, and full of a self confidence I never knew when I was a kid. They are popular with their school mates - many of whom come from single parent families and have no contact with their fathers. My wee girls have two mummies and two daddies. I can choose to ignore official Catholic homophobia when it is directed against me personally. I cannot ignore it when it is directed against my children. The Catholic Church, in effect, accuses lesbian and gay of child abuse. The irony obviously escapes the Curia.
But we have to distinguish carefully between the official position of the Catholic Church, and how individual Catholics interpret the teachings of the Church. Just as many Catholics choose to ignore the Church's teachings on contraception, many ignore the Church's teachings on homosexuality. I do not automatically assume that a Catholic must be a homophobe - I have the living breathing examples of my Catholic family who are most definitely not homophobic. I even know a couple of members of Opus Dei, and on a personal level at least I cannot accuse them of homophobia, they have always shown me and my partner the greatest respect and treat us as what we are - a married couple. How individual Catholics reconcile what I see as official Catholic homophobia with their own personal rejection of homophobia is none of my business.
Although Scotland has made enormous strides in overcoming homophobia over the past few decades, it remains a blight on our society. The SNP, Labour, the Conservatives and the rest all reflect the homophobia of Scottish society to some extent. None of the parties have a flawless record in this regard. I was deeply unhappy with the SNP's links with Brian Soutar and share Wansanshoo's unease. However I do not see those links as proof of the special homophobia of the SNP, rather I see it of proof of how deeply ingrained homophobia is within wider Scottish society. Labour's record is not any better, as a brief perusal of the voting records of many West of Scotland Labour MPs will quickly prove. It's a function of our electoral system that we must weigh one desired outcome against another when we decide who to vote for, and that's especially true for lesbian and gay voters.
So I will continue to vote SNP tactically as a means of producing Scottish independence. But at the same time I must continue to ensure that the SNP rids itself of the lingering homophobia that still lurks in the dark corners of Scottish society. I know that most SNP members share this goal.
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#180 northhighlander
Ok you might not have said "too wee etc" but is is implied in your statement, as is it's not the right time for independence. When is the right time going to be for all you people who wish to stay in the Union.
You miss my point on vision etc - Independence is a massive change that will not hurt Scotland but will see Scottish solutions for Scottish problems being able to be put in place by controlling our own finances. All the unionists on here who criticise the current SNP government at Holyrood conveniently ignore that Westminster still holds the purse strings and any failings of the SNP government are due to them having no total control over Scottish finances.
You are looking for guarantees of a promised land that no one can give, but you can be assured that it won't come by sticking with the status quo. Bringing decision making directly under Scottish control will bring democracy a bit closer to the people and we won't have to face a government that Scotland did not elect taking us along the various roads that the Westminster governments like to travel.
Read #181 Donald-McNairn for some more vision and hope. Like I said in my original statement - thirs nae reason tae be feart, go'an tak a chance.
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Re my #195
Fair enough mods. You are quite right to block a funny YouTube distortion of Griffin's comments.
Daniel Finkelstein's Comment Central on Times Online should be ashamed of himself for posting it - as I am for trying to link to it.
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Online Ed Here
I urge people to click on the link below and go to 44 minutes in.
Click Here
Slip of the tongue, freudian slip, mischief or what?
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#191,
Stop trying to twist my words. Please re-read my post (carefully this time) and point out the parts that are "a lot of nonsense". To help you on your way, I'll give you a couple of hints:
Nowhere did I say that the SNP's and Mr Soutar's views on homosexuality were aligned.
Nowhere did I say that Mr Soutar is, was or ever has been, homophobic.
It is an indisputable fact that the SNP accepted a donation from Mr Soutar. It is also an indisputable fact that Mr Soutar has campaigned against the promotion of homosexuality in schools.
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#196 Nate, re-read my last post re: the Edinburgh Trams (Post #189)... cos you have mis-understood it!
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It doesn't matter where Willie Bain lives. It doesn't matter what Cameron's wife wore at the Tory Party Conference.
It does matter that politicians are open, honest and aren't hypocritical. Hypocrisy is the problem - not the details of their life.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/tory-frockgate-unravels-further-16624.html
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Online Ed Here
Just listened to the Big Debate, well handled by Brian - very impressed with David Kerr especially when Brian chucked his wee 'grenade' at him by suggesting that the SNP awarding a contract to TNT might lead to privatisation of the Royal Mail by the back door - it led to laughs from the audience - however Kerr handled the situation exceptionally well.
Bain took a bit of a hammering, he didn't flinch though except for one stuttering episode. He came across as a product of the party machine with answers right out of the Labour Politicians handbook, not inspiring at all.
The Lib Dem lady seems genuine enough but was once again caught out with a pretty basic question - comes across as a novice.
Conservative candidate is very effective, good communicator and is causing Bain problems as she draws him into petty squabbles that will certainly be a turn off for undecided voters.
Bain will be hoping that enough traditional voters stick with Labour to see him through. However, my feeling is that the more exposure we get through debates such as this then the more Labour's vote will erode.
There's something about Bain that irritates [no, not simply because he is Labour] he generates no warmth, no charm - I can't quite put my finger on it.
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192. oldnat
This is likely to be very controversial, but I'm prepared to take the flak.
Training, in fact tertiary education in all its forms, in this country has not been wildly successful. There are several reasons for this but, in my view, the principal reason is that courses do not appear to have a clearly defined goal in terms of jobs. Students without a goal get demotivated and that is when drop-outs happen. Usually in the first year of the course, occasionally later on. It is perhaps instructive that courses in the professions tend not experience the same level of drop-out rate because there is the apparent promise of a job at the end.
How then do we motivate students or the unemployed who are not entering the professions. In my view, the answer is to provide them with the job first, then train them in a skill in which they are interested.
How, I hear you ask, do you provide them with a job? Answer- conscription. Told you it was controversial.
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Bingowings:
"I'm sure you are aware the SNP took half a million pounds of Brian Souter's money and are therefore very much associated with one of the most high profile campaigners against gay rights, in the form of his support for clause 28"
By even mentioning that the SNP took money from Soutar in the same paragraph as describing them as being associated with someone who campaigned against gay rights you have implied that the SNP must sympathise with Soutars view. The reasons they are associated with soutar have nothing to do with clause 28, the SNP were instrumental in the abolition of clause 28. And Mr Soutar is not as you say "a high profile campaigner against gay rights" as you suggest, Mr Soutar is a well respected man who has done much for charity, he is in fact someone who is opposed to the promotion of homosexuality in schools as are many people. This does not make him homophobic. I have gay relatives and friends, and they too are against the promotion of homosexuality in schools because they feel it is not the place for it, they believe schools are for learning about Maths, English, History, etc, they are also against Sex education though, with me they believe that this is a responsibility that should be left with the parents, to teach us mutual respect for all the differences in the population that actually makes this country great.
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204ed
" Just listened to the Big Debate, well handled by Brian - very impressed with David Kerr especially when Brian chucked his wee 'grenade' at him by suggesting that the SNP awarding a contract to TNT might lead to privatisation of the Royal Mail by the back door - it led to laughs from the audience - however Kerr handled the situation exceptionally well"
What do you mean by lead to privatisation. of course the SNP have started to privatise royal mail by awarding a private firm a contract. Only a fool would dispute that claim. The SNP leading by endorsing the Thatcher economic position of yesterday.
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Ah Bongo, i've got you now, its been a long shift at work, your meaning that Scotland run by Scots wouldn't have wasted money on the trams I think? Hopefully i've got it right this time and we're on the same page.
I guess we both agree that those trams were a waste of money lol.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
MagisterIlluminatus:
#205.
"How, I hear you ask, do you provide them with a job? Answer- conscription. Told you it was controversial."
For, the military? There's quite a difference between volunteers and conscripted soldiers. You wouldn't get away with using conscripts for many circumstances as it would be against their human right, I doubt they'd be considered for Afganistan either and will simply be a drain on military resources.
The Government should be ecnouraged to train as many as possible. The benefits is that we offer a system of training plus career but can offer peanuts for wages. If the person agrees to work for a certain amount of years or face repaying the local councils for the training that was provided. Then after, we open the door and boot them into the private sector.
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204. U14094468
"There's something about Bain that irritates [no, not simply because he is Labour] he generates no warmth, no charm - I can't quite put my finger on it."
"Sleekit"
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
#211 cynicalHighlander
More a mooag.
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Labour Candidate William Bain digs a bigger hole for himself everytime he opens his mouth!
Not just Willie!
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#206 No probs_oz Nate *;o)
#200 Probaly just a mistake, but no apology offered... I guess the producer was sleeping? The SNP are probably the least discriminatory party out there anyway. The unionists used to try and put them into the same camp as the BNP and the likes, but would we see stuff like this if that were even remotely true...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8RFnfc4EZg
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#210 Thomas_P
if we keep shovelling troops into the cauldron of Afghanistan, you might be on the button with the conscription idea! Wonder what odds Wullie Hills would give on a "restricted" call up post the GE?
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213. handclapping
Much better mooag thanks never heard of it before now.
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#204 U14094468/Online Ed
I too listened to the Big Debate before joining the fray here and agree pretty much with your review. Brian could, perhaps, have made more of an attempt to keep them on Westmidden issues rather than Holyrood and council ones, but that's being rather nitpicking. It would also possibly have prevented Kerr from demonstrating that he at least knew which are which and shrewdly seeking consensus among the candidates for the benefit of the constituents. I agree that Bain didn't come across as simpatico but I accept I may be prejudiced against him.
Anyone who hasn't already listened can find it here.
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80% of Lib Dems want an independence referendum
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205. MagisterIlluminatus
"How, I hear you ask, do you provide them with a job? Answer- conscription. Told you it was controversial."
Arguably mandatory schooling for children is "conscription". As long as you are not restricting conscription to the military, mandatory "on the job" training may have merit for some young people.
However, my question was more related to how we expand the skills of those who want to work, have worked but whose skill level makes them vulnerable. Changing the benefit rules to allow them to train, while keeping benefits (although they wouldn't be available for work till the end of the course) would seem to have benefits for that group, while opening up the "minimum wage" jobs for new entrants to the job market.
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Sometime after 10 pm there will be a YouGov poll with first details of BNP polling after last night's broadcast - according to a "tweet" (silly term!)
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I caught bits of the big debate travelling between jobs and have to say that Ruth Davidson was excellent, she showed what an ex BBC Scotland journalist is capapble of when free to question Labour record in office. She gave the Labour guy a harder time in the 10 minutes or so that I heard than i have ever heard on Good Morning Scotland etc overthe years i have listened.
David Kerr did ok too and again communicated well,the Lib Dem woman did seem a little out of her depth but the most important point was the mood of the audience in the studio, if I was a Labour politician I would be a little concerned right now.
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#218 Brownedov @ 36mins:30secs I was laughig my head off...
The Lib Dum candidate was bleating about badgering the SNP to increase the house building budget and Brian Taylor asked that; "since the Scottish Budget is a fixed budget, what would she cut?"
"Um... eh... um... well... Trident!", she proclaimed.
"That's not covered by the Scttish budget", rightfully informed Brian Taylor.
"You know, you've stumped me there... so there you go.", she quipped.
Absolute class from the Dum Dums! LOL *;o)
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#223 BoNG0_1
I had intended to draw a veil around the L-D lady [she'd probably have liked to draw one around herself!], thinking that Ed's "novice" comment summed her up pretty well, but yes that was a pretty major boo-boo, especially as I believe she's the only one of the four currently holding elected office - as a councillor.
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224
Brownedov, are you referring my posts?
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Online Ed Here
Does anyone know if the BBC or STV plan any televised debates on the by-election?
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#224; "I believe she's the only one of the four currently holding elected office - as a councillor."
I didn't know that Brownedov! that makes it a bit less funny and a litte more pittiful!
...nah, It's still funny *;o)
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I see, Liberal Democrat policy for Friday; Trident should be cut from the Scottish budget!
This is not at all amusing. The Liberal Democrat as demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge of the system of Scotland and the United Kingdom.
It's not a trick question either, I bet people will still vote for someone who does not appear to know the system too :\
Perhaps the Liberal Democrat candidate has forgotten she is taking part in an election?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#225 brownresolute
"Brownedov, are you referring my posts?"
Not today, so far, but I did refer a couple of your spamming, off-topic poems yesterday. I do suggest that you should read the House Rules to avoid such problems.
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Agree the big debate was very well handled by Brian. He gets a fair bit of stick on here( including from me at times ), but is head and shoulders above the rest in Scotland when it comes to handling these live hustings.
Eileen Baxendale of the Lib Dems was caught out in exactly the same way last week on TV when the interviewer challenged her poorly researched wish lists and demands with "what would you cut?" Just dire.
I watched Question Time last night after all the hype and found it dull as ditchwater. I suspect that few of the people who will vote for the BNP will have been watching anyway. It therefore became a bit of a mutual backslapping exercise for the panel, chairman and audience which was not in the least challenging.
Griffin comes across as mad as a hatter with his inappropriate smiling and laughing when sensitive subjects are mentioned. I agree that a much stronger panel would have made it far more watchable.
As it was I found patronising Tory Baroness Warsi so irritating I would probably picket the BBC myself if she was appearing ( calm down Dean, only kidding)
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#228 Thomas, I think it is just that the Lib Dum candidate is not a very good politician. Surely, if you want more spending in a fixed budget in one area and attack another pary (in this case the SNP), you simply must have an alternative proposal including diverting cash from another area to fund your priorites.
Glad to hear that the LibDems support no new Trident though. I have also voted LibDem once in the past and used to like a lot of their policies under Charles Kennedy. I always thought they would be more suited to being a pro-ndependence party and because they wouldn't consider this option was pretty much the reason that I switched from them to the SNP. The SNP demonstrated all the good points of the liberals anyway, social fairness, anti-war, liberal minded, environmental policy etc.
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#231, Grassy, the one thing I noticed (as I was obviously watching from a Scottish viewpoint), is that the English do not have a credible outlet for their nationalism.
They regularly make no destinction between English and British. I really feel if they had an outlet such as an EIP (English Indepedent Party) which based itself largely on our own SNP (but for the English perspective), maybe this would combat some of the BNP menace.
They could argue such as, why are we funding and supporting Scotland, Wales and NI when there are towns in the North of England losing out?
and...
Why are Scots/Welsh& NI MP's able to have a say on English only matters, but not vice-verca?
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#227 BoNG0_1
"that makes it a bit less funny and a litte more pittiful! ...nah, It's still funny"
Both, I'd say. Eileen Baxendale is a councillor for Rutherglen South on South Lanarkshire Council. She was 2nd on first preferences and elected at stage 7.
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230
" Not today, so far, but I did refer a couple of your spamming, off-topic poems yesterday. I do suggest that you should read the House Rules to avoid such problems."
What a very un-British thing to do, never mind, I shall consider my home advantage nil and void and proceed with caution.(maybe?)
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further to my 231. Can't now recall the programme where Eileen Baxendale was caught out last week on TV but I think she was actually asked "what would YOUR policy be?" rather than "what would you cut?"
Anyone else see it? In any case , she was completely flummoxed, just as she was with Brian today.
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Talking of hypocrisy among politicians -
http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/23/did-griffin-lie-about-his-fathers-war-record/
Looks like Griffin's Dad did a couple of years National Service in India after the war, and never fought in WWII at all.
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233Bongo
" They regularly make no destinction between English and British. I really feel if they had an outlet such as an EIP (English Indepedent Party) which based itself largely on our own SNP (but for the English perspective), maybe this would combat some of the BNP menace."
Over to you Brownedov. Could you give your colleague an answer to his questions?
Woes me!
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229. brownresolute
I referred this post. Personal abuse is not acceptable.
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235. brownresolute
"What a very un-British thing to do"
But very Scottish. Rational debate being of value here.
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#240 Oldnat, "Rational debate being of value here."
...something we don't get too much from Brownresolute!
I wonder if you can tell us BR why we are better in the Union perhaps?
Ps. I have never referred any posts.
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239
Fair enough however,to whom do you consider as the receiver of personal abuse, could it be you just totally read the script of the wording wrong?.
240
coherent rationality? maybe.
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241
Goodman! If you advocate to change little in terms of the crown, the armed forces and the day to day living of the peoples, then! Bongo, whats the point. Change for Change sake?
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205. MagisterIlluminatus
"How then do we motivate students or the unemployed who are not entering the professions. In my view, the answer is to provide them with the job first, then train them in a skill in which they are interested.
How, I hear you ask, do you provide them with a job? Answer- conscription. Told you it was controversial."
I'd certainly like to look at a civic national service.
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@233 BoNGO_1
I think you're right about that but as a long time surfer of their blogs I'm afraid to say that English nationalists as we would recognise them are scarcer than hen's teeth.
They are very angry about the way that devolution has turned out and justifiably annoyed about the virtual airbrushing of the word England from the vocabulary of Labour politicians in favour of Britain.
They largely completely misunderstand the Scottish Block Grant and seem to be where we were about 30 years ago in terms of England/Scotland relations. The problem is that most of them want to see an English Parliament or some form of federalism but hardly any want to end the union.
Scotland is viewed as a region like Yorkshire and the idea of "letting it go" is anathema to most despite their anger. I admit there are a few people who genuinely want an independent England but the vast majority want improved representation for England within the union.
I'd love to see an ENP along the lines of the SNP but sadly I don't think it can happen as long as Scotland continues to be viewed as an annoying but integral part of what they see as a Greater England.
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Not at all #241, the issue of Royal status has little to do with independence. This is an issue of personal preference and can be dealt with accordingly aka Australian Style. Personally, I would have independent Scottish forces, But they would work with he English forces in much the same way that Canada and the USA work under a North American Airospace Defense Command (NORAD) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Aerospace_Defense_Command
However, as for the day to day living of the people, much could be tailored by government closer to the people as has been proved is possible from Edinburgh better than it is from London, such as the Fishing industry, Attracting foreign investment under Scottish Enterprise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Enterprise , the Scottish tourist industry (The Homecoming Scotland Initiative) for example and promoting Scotland overseas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeKTFpdV88g
I also believe that we would be able to direct funding to where it is needed in Scotland better under full fiscal control, as our needs up here often dont match other areas of the UK, such as the SE of England ad therefore would benefit from not being under the constraints of an all encompasing UK economic policy.
However, I did ask, if you could tell us BR why we are better off in the Union as opposed to my comments above?
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"Virtually everyone I spoke to made the link between crime and a lack of economic opportunity - although several also felt there were members of the community who didn't make enough effort to sort themselves out."
Did you mean the crime of taxation and the lack of economic opportunity caused by government intervention? Or perhaps you mean the failed economic policies and the insistence in following Keynes down the wrong road to recovery with the impact this has on growth in a (true - not fettered) free market economy?
Better yet maybe you mean how children watch as government professes that you can spend your way out of debt only to have to resort to selling their precious metals via the t.v. or hock their goods at the ever increasing pawn shops that are sprouting up in every town? Much like the gambler who goes to the loan shark banking on that big win to clear all the balances.
S. J. Sexton
LPUK Scotland Party Secretary
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205. MagisterIlluminatus
"
This is likely to be very controversial, but I'm prepared to take the flak."
No flak but correct me if I'm wrong under a capitalist system there has to be a workforce available greater than the respective businesses require which gives them control over who and how many workers suit those businesses to maximise profit (the master).
If one turns that on its head and shaped a business not on maximising profits but ran it able to fluctuated its workforce to suit the available workforce giving full employment at all times coupled with a fluctuating level of profit maintaining the economy in the black and so alieviating the 'boom bust' cycle but able to to work within the available workforce. (Random thoughts)
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OK This poll was conducted in GB (ie mainly England) within a few hours of QT ending
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6417906/One-in-four-would-consider-voting-BNP.html
but 1 in 4 would consider voting BNP? God help us.
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#245, you probably have a good point Grassy, but it would be interesting to see the usual suspect unionists combat that one...
On the one hand Suggesting to the English that Scotland contributes loads to benefit England, while at the same time telling the Scots that they need and benefit from England. It would be a difficult possition to maintain I think!
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235. brownresolute
No guilty conscience here just did a few a honest refferals and will have no hesitation in repeating the act when like conditions occur. Either debate in a coherent manner or get ignored simple really.
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245. GrassyKnollington
"I'd love to see an ENP along the lines of the SNP but sadly I don't think it can happen as long as Scotland continues to be viewed as an annoying but integral part of what they see as a Greater England."
From what I have seen there are different 'English Nationalists' views from extreme right down to mildly left wing with English Independence the only similarity which is possibly why the BNP's popularity is increasing in some areas.
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221. At 7:34pm on 23 Oct 2009, oldnat wrote:
Sometime after 10 pm there will be a YouGov poll with first details of BNP polling after last night's broadcast - according to a "tweet" (silly term!)
22% apparently would consider voting BNP.
I've yet to watch QT, since I was at Fleetwood Mac gig last night. Far more entertaining than watching Jack Straw trying to get all moralistic.
As for that LD candidate....... doesn't say much for the selection panel / committee that the Lib Dems use to decide their candidates. And she is a councillor???? Explains a lot that does.......
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During last Thursday night’s appearance on Question Time, Mr Straw was repeatedly quizzed about whether Labour's immigration policies had left the door open for the BNP.
I wonder why he, Jack Straw, never mentioned THIS
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Anyone else notice that Nick Robinsons blog was shut down - just like Mark Eastons? I know some of you did as I witnessed a few of you posting ;-)
I find the fact that the blog was shut down extraordinary - considering that they were both covering the Nick Griffin / BNP saga.
The thing that startles me the most about those blogs was how many people were defending Griffins position as a political guest - myself included. I didn't think it terribly fair that he was treated with such contempt and it looked like a textbook stitch-up.
I have no love for the man, being a nationalist I advocate the dissolution of the Union and return to nationhood for Scotland - but I am a thoroughly fair person and consider a rational voice to be one worth at least listening too.
We saw none of that last night.
I saw the weight of the White City used to dominate and crush a man's voice and I think that is terribly unfair - even if his ideals don't fit with my own. Is that the link then? Why so many people spoke up for him? People didn't see it as fair and decided to be vocal about it? Is that the subsequent reason for the BBC stopping all posts to Nick and Mark's blogs? Because more and more people were expressing thier displeasure at such an audacious spectacle?
I certainly don't admire Dimbleby as much as I once did. He had every opportunity to butt-in and redress the balance of venom and bile being spewed from all corners, but he didn't. He was too scared to give a man - even an abhorent man - the right to either defend himself or his ideals. He couldn't even muster effort to press Jack Straw on why the BNP exist at all - this is how terrible yesterdays programme was.
When the leaders debate takes place before the next general election and Salmond isn't there - will we just accept that his voice and the voices of the people who voted him into Holyrood are ignored? Salmond is nothing like Griffin - yet he's every bit as dangerous to the status quo.
Maybe we shouldn't be surprised to see what the big 3 call "fringe" parties discriminated against because they don't play the political waiting game.
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251 cynicalHighlander
Please, refer too the referrals when your referring to the referrer.
Coherent, with a twist of lemon?.
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247. wormitSteve
"LPUK"
That's not how you spell "joke".
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#253 Neil_Small147
The YouGov poll was taken hours after Mr Griffin’s appearance on Thursday, before which anti-fascist protesters rioted outside BBC Television Centre in London.
One in five 'would consider voting BNP' after Nick Griffin Question Time appearance
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Oldnat:
#249.
It's quite typical, what should you expect after "The Nick Griffin Show" that we witnessed last night? It was a complete sham and I predict thousands of more hardened right figures because of the attack on their leader.
Personally, I would be furious to see Alex Salmond ganged up upon by the 'big three' of Britain (although, I expect Salmond can take care of himself), so I have no idea what's going on in the BNP camp.
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Online Ed Here
Anyone I have heard commenting on the programme, and there were many in my place of work who are non politicos, have expressed a feeling that it was a witchunt.
The BBC have, by using a once great programme as a blunt instrument, elicited sympathy for Griffin. Those in the media who are congratulating the BBC are confusing their own euphoric gloating, at watching this fascist squirm, with public opinion that can be less than sophisticated in these matters.
I believe the BBC have erred by first allowing him the platform and second by adopting the classic fascist technique of the bullying mob, they tainted themselves.
There is a corollary to what was broadcast last night with what the BBC do [in a much more subtle manner] in Scotland. Let there be no doubt that the BBC are not just capable of, but will actively pursue, a political partisan agenda when it suits them.
Articulate argument could have caused the BNP far more damage than this public 'stoning'.
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#256, Brownresolute, I am not trying to set you up or play any games, I was simply wanting to have a debate and hear your point of view. I have asked now twice in my last two posts #241 & #246, if you can tell us Brownresolute, why we are better in the Union? And give me some specific reasons to go on?
It is easy to simply imply that independence is a bad idea, but you have t qualify that with evidence backing up your conclusions. For example, how did you come to the conclusion, when weighing up the issues, that remaining in the union was prefferable to independence for Scotland?
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#259 Thomas, "Personally, I would be furious to see Alex Salmond ganged up upon by the 'big three' of Britain (although, I expect Salmond can take care of himself)"
That would be such an un-fair match up... I would hope that 'Question Time' would re-structure the format to let the 'big three' have 2 representatives each on the panel...
...just to give them a fighting chance! LOL *;o)
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258. Roll_On_2010
Now don't bother reminding me that I've always said that sub-GB samples in the polls are fairly rubbish :-)
These are the breakdowns for the BNP vote by sub-sample polled by YouGov on 16-19 October.
London 2%
Rest of South 1%
Midlands/Wales 2%
North 4%
Scotland 2%
When the new poll data comes out, it might be worth a look.
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To digress from the main topic (and I believe Nick Griffin probably gained support last night due to undoubted bias in the programme which was overkill)has the Herald's letter page, the last redoubt of honest political reporting in the Scottish printed media, finally succumbed to become part of the vast anti SNP plot? It fills now daily with anti SNP letters and there is never any response or rebuttals printed, though I know there is very often a deluge of these.
Had a laugh seeing the Mail's attack on Griffin today. Like Al Capone getting worked up about tax evasion.
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249. oldnat
"but 1 in 4 would consider voting BNP? God help us."
I was in the Midlands late fifties early sixties (Enoch Powell's time) even then immigration was a problem as 'The Economy' came foremost in political terms and was swept under the carpet rather than address this smouldering timebomb. A solution could of been tackled then rather than be allowed to excacerbate to present day proportions where we are stuck between a rock and a hard place with the general public caught up as innocent victims. Dangerous times ahead.
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255. GAberdeen
Why do you want to shield Griffin from the response he provokes in decent people? Why should those people go out of their way to pretend that Griffin is something other than that which he is all too evidently happy to be - a political pornographer?
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259#
Salmond has a position of strength being an elected leader of the Scottish Government and member of the privvy counsel.
Griffin took a bashing and still managed to laugh - he didn't storm off in a rage like I suspect Foulkes would if you had him on Questiontime and persistently asked him forceful, offensive questions on why policies Labour implemented led to the rise of an anti-immigration-centric party.
The heady heights of government surely block the receptors of the brain that is used to gauge public opinion. Labour have well and truly lost thier way and with only a handfull of PR days before hustings - I can see the North of England voting in a few BNP MP's
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#260 Online Ed
Articulate argument could have caused the BNP far more damage than this public 'stoning'.
I wholeheartedly agree.
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256. brownresolute
"Coherent, with a twist of lemon?."
Had a dog that would eat lemon skins as she thought the cats might get them.
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260. U14094468
"I believe the BBC have erred by first allowing him the platform and second by adopting the classic fascist technique of the bullying mob..."
So, while allowing an acknowledged racist freedom to peddle his hateful ideology, the BBC should have curtailed other panellist's freedom to attack that ideology? Griffin was allowed to say whatever he wanted. Why shouldn't the others have the same freedom?
If Griffin is incapable of defending his position, why did he agree to go on the programme?
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I think that JR posted on this topic at one time - but why are the Brits obsessed with size?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/6418344/UK-economy-overtaken-by-Italy.html
"But most embarrassing of all will be the news that as a result the UK has now fallen beneath Italy for the first time since the mid-1990s to become the world’s seventh biggest economy."
If the per capita GDP has fallen for the UK (as it has) that is a measure of reduced wealth, but has nothing to do with which economy is "bigger". Norway doesn't try to be bigger - just continues to be consistently better.
I'm tempted to make a more direct comparison of the obsession with size that ex-imperial states have - but I suspect I'd get modded!
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267. GAberdeen
"Griffin took a bashing and still managed to laugh..."
Do you seriously believe that was amused laughter? The buffoon was embarrassed because his "arguments" disintegrated under scrutiny. Griffin's fine when he's making hate-mongering speeches to his fellow knuckle-draggers. But he can't cope with the challenges of open debate.
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UK economy overtaken by Italy
Brown's broke Britain before breakup, bye.
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I saw this 'email to Willie Bain from ann arky" on the 'radicalglasgowbologspot' There was permission to reproduce it.
"Hi,
received your propaganda through my letterbox and feel that you are somehow assuming that the people of the area are rather simple and have short memories. You continually go on about the SNP ripping off Glasgow, and in doing so place the blame for the state of the area on the SNP, but seem to overlook the fact that this area has had a Labour MP for 74 years and for the last 12 years, a Labour government at Westminster. Are we to take it that the previous labour MPs were worthless, plain stupid or worse and somehow you are going to ride in on your white charger and save the area? Tell us how, if you are elected and end up down in the Westminster House of Corruption among the 600 odd other political careerists, you will make an impact that will benefit the people of Springburn.
You state that you will clean up the shopping malls and streets by clearing them of drunks and drug addicts, where will you put them, somewhere that will cost no money and need no infrastructure? Can you tell us why we have so many drunks and drug addicts in the area and what you will do to stem the flow of young lives being destroyed in this manner? Of course bearing in mind that the previous 74 years of Labour MPs and 12 years of Labour government have seen the area continue to tailspin down the tubes of poverty and deprivation.
You ignore the history of your own Party and the way it has treated the people of this area and to believe that you will move the Party machinery to act differently from its long past is somewhat naive and little arrogant to say the least. "
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Just listened to Brian's show on iPlayer. A fair performance Brian, pleased you gave David Kerr a chance to remind the audience that Holyrood has awarded Royal Mail a £17million contract.
I was surprised at just how ineffectual Bain seems. He's obviously got to defend a poor Labour party record in Springburn and knows it. Still, as a monkey with a red rosette he must have a good chance.
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270. Electric Hermit
Debate isn't about 'bating the dog' but by showing how them up not shouting them down otherwise there is no moral high ground.
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I would be loath to have Dimbleby chairing a debate between the leaders if Salmond was in the panel.
Dimbleby brought Question Time to Scotland and had a penchant for stopping the SNP from having their say. It is far too easy for him to manipulate the situation as was demonstrated on Question Time last night.
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261 Bongo
What we have know is not perfection by a long shot however the argument is about consistency and continuation as opposed to uncertainty and an unknown gamble.
The current Scottish parliament is in receipt of over 35Bn a year, double the amount it was 10 years ago.The SNP have yet to lay on the table exactly what an Independent Scottish government could raise to govern with?.The current position on the EU, is that Britain still has it's opt outs.The SNP position is to accept the full EU condition, inclusive of the single currency without a referendum, hardly democratic.
All the experts say oil is a commodity that drifts too much in price to fix any long term accountability on it.At best the GERS reports suggest that when oil is at it's highest price, tax revenue would be some 9Bn, that's if the price of a barrel reaches over $150 dollars.
The SNP have still to outline what income tax rate they would set as an Independent nation, if they chose to keep the 20p per pound rate and the sterling, then their collective take would reach some 20Bn.
So you have some 29Bn! can you elaborate and give a real account as to where a prespective Independent Scotland could gain another 10Bn, maybe through corporation tax?
Then you have to take into account what the separation cost would be for an Independent Scotland and whether we could Afford to take on RBS and HBOS bank books.(I'll not drift into the additional cost of setting up a whitehall type function to deal with all the areas that Independence would bring)
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#266 ElectricHermit
I didn't say I wanted to shield him from the opinons or questions from what you call decent people, but I would sooner call a baying crowd. Decent people have the presence of mind to let someone finish talking and not shout at people as opposed to talking to them.
No political subject was offered to him - only his past and his parties past - which I couldn't care less about. People can vote with their feet - if they don't like what he has to say they can say "what a thoroughly disgusting man" and decline to offer him thier ballot.
What went on yesterday wasn't a natural reaction to this man's brand of politics by normal people. It was a reaction by a lot of people from ethnic minorities who wanted a chance to give him a talking-down too.
The racial and political demographic in Northern England and Scotland isn't nearly as diverse as it is in London - so it's no surprise he has no fans "down south" But at the same time, because he now represents a million souls in the North of England are we to understand that if people from London find him abhorent - everyone should - and sod everyone who doesn't?
In another time, with another set of circumstances - this mixture could potentially end in a form of civil conflict. It's not for me to defend Griffin, but i will defend the right of anyone to have thier case heard in a public forum without being derided and bullied into submission from those who are fearful of something different.
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276. cynicalHighlander
"Debate isn't about 'bating the dog' but by showing how them up not shouting them down otherwise there is no moral high ground."
Griffin was allowed to speak. He just had nothing of any worth to say.
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277. hamish42
"It is far too easy for him to manipulate the situation as was demonstrated on Question Time last night."
It was Dimbleby who saved Griffin further embarrassment by moving on to other topics. And Griffin still had nothing meaningful to say. He wanted to play with the "big boys". He wasn't up to the job.
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How to break up communities by Willie Bain
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Listened to the Big Debate earlier and one subjects that was brought up was the plight of asylum seekers in Glasgow NE. Why Willie Bain was not plastered with the following, I posted recently on NR blog, is beyond me.
Those right wing thugs are cutting more.
Benefit support for asylum seekers is to be cut from tomorrow to £5 a day - just over half of what the government says a person needs to live on, according to refugee welfare agencies.
Yep NuLabour hitting the most defenceless group of people in the UK. Bet Duff feels proud!
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279. GAberdeen
"It's not for me to defend Griffin..."
Don't sell yourself short. You're doing a very good job of defending him. And peddling the "persecuted underdog" image he works so hard to cultivate.
Griffin got the public platform he wanted. He just couldn't cope with it. But with the help of people like you he might yet retrieve something from his abysmal failure.
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These are the dangers of extremism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvw2pSmRzjs
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278: brownrsolute
I have absolutely no idea what figures to apply to the following however it seems to me that an independent Scotland would still have the option of obtaining revenue from
1. National Insurance
2. Capital Gains
3. Stamp Duty
4. Inheritance Tax
5. VAT
6. Council Tax or Local Income Tax
7. Road Tax
at whatever levels the Scottish Gov deemed necessary
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278. brownresolute
"the argument is about consistency and continuation as opposed to uncertainty and an unknown gamble."
derek - You have become the ultimate Tory. No change from current conditions - not now, not ever.
Consistency - So you are saying that every UK Government will continue the current tax regime with the focus on the standard rate of tax at 20%. It will never be increased? As the huge tax take from the London financial bubble has collapsed in the same way that the Irish tax take from property tax collapsed, that will have no effect on personal tax rates? The UK has been financing it's expenditure through borrowing for years. Will that continue ad infinitum? Just who will lend them the money - and at what interest rate?
Continuity - As part of the UK we will continue to pay eternally for an aggressive, interventionist foreign policy; WMD, unquestioning support for US foreign policy.
We know where your consistency and continuity under Official and Provo Tories will lead. Since you like songs - here is the future you will deliver
They used to tell me I was building a dream
And so I followed the mob
When there was earth to plough or guns to bear
I was always there, right on the job
They used to tell me I was building a dream
With peace and glory ahead
Why should I be standing in line
Just waiting for bread
Once I built a railroad made it run
Made it race against time
Once I built a railroad, now it's done
Brother can you spare a dime
Once I built a tower to the sun
Brick and rivet and lime
Once I built a tower, now it's done
Brother can you spare a dime
Once in khaki suits, gee we looked swell
Full of that yankee doodle-dee dum
Half a million boots went sloggin' through hell
And I was the kid with the gun
Say you don't remember, they called me Al
It was Al all the time
Say you don't remember, I'm your pal
Buddy can you spare a dime
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286. griflion
"I have absolutely no idea what figures to apply to the following however it seems to me that an independent Scotland would still have the option of obtaining revenue from..."
I have never quite understood the quaint notion, common among unionists, that individuals and businesses in Scotland are somehow exempt from paying tax.
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285. brownresolute
"These are the dangers of extremism."
Proud of your Brit Nat pals are you?
No, of course not, but why do you want to share a policy platform with such people?
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280. Electric Hermit
"Griffin was allowed to speak. He just had nothing of any worth to say."
I don't watch telly so can't comment other than what is online in various guises and what I have digested is that is was a bating match which achieved nothing other than elevating someone to an upper plane which they don't deserve. By having a biased panel willing to appease a baying public on a supposedly unbiased state media has done the opposite of which was intended. If the host had acted in a more unbiased way then the outcome could of shown the hypocrasy of the BNP instead of showing him as an innocent victim of a witchhunt.
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278: brownresolute
8. Passport application revenue
9. Drving licence revenue
10. Excise duty
11. Air passenger duty
12. Betting & gaming duty
13. Insurance premium tax
It goes without saying I would hope that an Independent Scotland would be much less taxed that we are at present by the UK Gov but even if we maintained the current levels we would at least be able to spend it whichever way best served Scotland
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Electric Hermit:
I see you have no principals. I guess you do not believe with, "Treat others how you expect to be treated."?
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Opinion poll: more than half of British voters think the BNP 'has a point'
"More than half of those questioned said they agreed with the BNP, or thought that it “had a point” in wishing to “speak up for the interests of the indigenous, white British people … which successive governments have done far too little to protect.” This included 43 per cent who said that, while they shared some of its concerns, they had “no sympathy for the party itself”"
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Electric Hermit:
I am quite suprised you claim Nick Griffin had nothing to say, I got the impression that Nick Griffin was never allowed the chance to explain every single issue raised against the person.
Jack Straw practically said enough to write several books...
I believe Nick Griffin, given enough rope will hang himself. I do not believe there needed to be an entire programme dedicated to the man on an unfair platform. I said it before, if that happened to an SNP official I would be furious and I suspect members of the BNP will simply strengthen their opinions.
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#278
The SNP's position is to offer the people of Scotland a referendum on staying in Europe or negotiating withdrawal and this has been the party's position for many years. The rest of your piece is similarly inaccurate or downright incorrect as well.
No expert says anything of the sort about oil. Even at it lowest cost (it was $15 per barrel for a very long time) it repesents a huge windfall and of course cheap oil is a huge encourgagent to industry. Of course the Norwegians - silly boys - don't pay any attention to your fantasy "experts". They just save up the extra income from their oil and they now have an oil fund of $2,900,000,000,000 ie - enough to pay of the Uk's national debt with ease and plenty to spare.
The vast majority of taxation raised by any Government in the developed world is not raised in personal income tax and the fact that you are obviously unaware of that fact indicates that you know nothing whatsover about economic matters.
The RBS is a vast internationally owned British bank with a Scottish HQ which does over 90% of its busines outside of Scotland. It is for instance Ulster Bank in NI and Nat West in England and no Scottish Government would have had any interst in saving anything but the small Scottish bit of it
HBOS is no more a Scottish bank than fly in the air, being a very large English company which swallowed the BOS some years ago. It has a cosmetic HQ of some of its operations in Edinburgh but is basically a large English bank. Only those trying to make political capitol continue to describe it as a Scottish bank.
Actually I agree with a growing number of experts who suggest that these and other banks should have been allowed to go bankrupt. This would have hurt huge investment organisations and the spivs and speculators and the bonus hungry big boys and the government could have poured the money it has wasted in the banking black debt hole into reorganising and refinancing the economy directly.
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290. cynicalHighlander
What was the name of the programme you were watching?
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287. oldnat
Mods. I presume you are looking at this post on copyright grounds. If that breaks the rules then please follow your previous procedures and email me about it - including the post itself. I'm quite happy to remove the song, but I really can't be bothered retyping the response to derek's ultra-Tory post that policies of continuity and compromise are what we should be following.
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#278, Brownresolute...
You just stated figures and claim that 'all the experts' agree wih you...
Ok then, check the following...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7465840.stm
Also, Oil prices fluctuate, but will ultimately rise as the commodity becomes more scarce (proven simple economics), so your argument regarding continuity of oil prices is very weak, a very good article which should enlighten you of the issues involved as follows...
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=150102
A litte doom and gloom I agree however, all is not bleak, as Scotland is one of the best placed countries to deal with the end of the oil age and the entering into the renewables age...
http://www.banffshire-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/4075/Scotland_s_renewable_potential.html
http://www.friendsofscotland.gov.uk/scotlandnow/issue-14/history/scotlands-renewable-energy-industry.html
http://www.hi-energy.org.uk/
Finally, you state figues of how much independence will cost, but you ignore a multitude of factors such as new economic developments into renewable techologies which we could sell (both energy produced and world leading expertise), the savings we would make by not being involved with nuclear weapons or power, the logistics of focussing resources to avoid wasteful expense which always occurs more when an entity is larger and the more streamlined and high profile marketing of Scotland on the global stage resulting in increased inward investment.
Could you please provide sources for your figures, as it is difficult to debte them if I do not know who from and how they were obtained and the parameters which were considered when arriving at the conclusions with which you agree?
I must be honest, I am not convinced by your arguments at this point.
Bongo.
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291 griflion
Yes, just run of the mill taxation as far as a nation goes. Now put the demographics in, the cost of progressive measure and upkeep and give me a ball point number as revenue collected?
a wealthfare state?
building affordable homes?
International commitments?
armed forces?
Immigration costs?
Building schools?
Building hospitals?
Building new bridges?
University and college costs? ect........
And an Independent Scottish bank that could keep the interest rates at present plus RPI and the reduction on VAT and the business rates low.
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#263 oldnat
North 4%
Just read this article in the Guardian.
Burnley residents dismiss Question Time 'witch-hunt' of Nick Griffin.
With regards to the higher % gains in the North. I don’t know if people remember the 2001 riots in Oldham, Burnley, Bradford and to a lesser extent Leeds. These are the areas were the BNP got their foot in the door.
I abhor the BNP, but I believe that QT was handled wrongly. I believe it was a pre-organised lynching with very little if any debate, a debate were the BNP could have been shown as the bigoted and racist party they are.
After watching QT I am not surprised at the support they are now getting, certainly within North England.
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298 Bongo
I'll just deal with your first part first.
If the price of oil increase, then the price of energy and petrol increase, causing people to seek better pay condition and companies to seek higher prices for their good, which in turn causes melt down unemployment and recession.
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292. Thomas_Porter
"I guess you do not believe with, "Treat others how you expect to be treated."?"
A racist should expect to be treated as a racist.
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Bongo, the second part of your post relates to renewable energy and it's potential.I will agree that Scotland has the potential to create sustainable renewable energy, however energy and energy costs are the most dngerous of requirments for all nation just now. Last winter over 25 people a week died of cold related conditions in Scotland, many died because they were in fuel poverty and unable too heat their homes. Energy in our neck of the woods a real must and a must that is affordable.It's hardly likely that renewables will be the new liquid gold in terms of profiting.
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293. cynicalHighlander
75 years ago in Germany a lot of people thought Hitler "had a point".
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281. Electric Hermit 277.
"It was Dimbleby who saved Griffin further embarrassment by moving on to other topics. And Griffin still had nothing meaningful to say. He wanted to play with the "big boys". He wasn't up to the job."
Dimbleby had already set the dogs onto Griffin, probably on the direct instructions of the BBC, and only changed to another topic right at the end of the programme. That looks like manipulation in my book. Most people would have capitulated under the onslaught Griffen was subjected to. Perhaps Dimbleby was beginning to realise the seriousness of the situation he was letting himself and the BBC into.
The BBC gave 'impartiality' as their excuse for allowing Griffen onto the programme in the first place, then impartiality was allowed to fly out the window by the treatment they gave him. They should not be allowed to get away with it. Who will get 'the treatment' next?
Griffen should be given another chance to explain his policies without the harassment from audience, panel or interviewer, so that we can all understand where he is coming from as we did not learn much last night.
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301. brownresolute
"If the price of oil increase, then the price of energy and petrol increase"
Wrong. If oil price increases then Government revenue increases. There is then the facility to reduce taxation on petrol (and the limited energy production dependent on oil) to keep the consumer price stable. You are used to a UK Government operating within a continous deficit so big that all oil revenues are used to prop up basic current expenditure.
You assume continuity and consistency with bankrupt UK.
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294. Thomas_Porter
"I am quite suprised you claim Nick Griffin had nothing to say, I got the impression that Nick Griffin was never allowed the chance to explain every single issue raised against the person."
Why should he be given preferential treatment? He knew the format of the programme. If he wasn't capable of representing his odious views in such a situation he shouldn't have been there. He volunteered for this. Save your sympathy for more deserving cases.
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#301, if you read the following link, you would understand that oil scarcity is a fact. It is happening and of that there is no doubt, it is only a matter of time. If Scotland sits back and ignores it, then the economic melt down you talk about is inevitable. Personally, I want to make sure we catch the renewables bus rather than get left standing.
Please read the article I previously posted before getting back with a reply to this...
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=150102
Regards,
Bongo.
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303. brownresolute
"Last winter over 25 people a week died of cold related conditions in Scotland"
And you want continuity and consistency with current UK practice. You are approving of fuel poverty and the deaths that it causes.
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299 brownrsololute
As I said, I have no idea what the numbers would be, ball point or otherwise. I was merely responding to your assertion in 278 that the only revenue streams available would be from oil and income tax.
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300. Roll_On_2010
"...a debate were the BNP could have been shown as the bigoted and racist party they are. "
I had no doubt about this beforehand. Griffin only confirmed it with his pathetic performance on QT.
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305. hamish42
"Griffen should be given another chance to explain his policies without the harassment from audience, panel or interviewer..."
The BNP is entitled to Party Political Broadcasts.
I would have thought you'd at least be able to spell your hero's name.
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Electric Hermit:
#302.
"A racist should expect to be treated as a racist."
Yes... certainly without principals. Two wrongs do not make it right...
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306
Oldnat, wrong, the goverment revenue increase wouldn't be solely used to decrease the cost of fuel and energy, tht's just magic roundabout thinking.
308 Bongo, more people are concerned about the lack of water as to the lack of oil,in Libya water has a higher cost than oil.
309
Oldnat, wrong, again, fitting homes with heating systems is not a reserves matter.The winter fuel leevy still applies.
310 griflion, ok my apologise! nothing and no certainties in much.
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#303, Brownresolute, "It's hardly likely that renewables will be the new liquid gold in terms of profiting."
This is simply totally and completely false... it couldn't be more false!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland
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#303 brownresolute
Hi Delboy. Fuel Poverty
One in four households trapped in fuel poverty.
It’s a national disgrace. Haven’t your party NuLabour done well!
If Scotland was independent perhaps energy company windfall taxes could be added to the list griflion at #291 has given.
Jimmy Brown has not got the Ed Balls to tackle the exorbitant prices these Companies charge for energy perhaps AS has. This money then could go to protecting the most vulnerable in Scotland.
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314. brownresolute
"Oldnat, wrong, the goverment revenue increase wouldn't be solely used to decrease the cost of fuel and energy, tht's just magic roundabout thinking."
I totally agree. As oil prices increased the government revenue stream would be well in excess of that required to keep internal energy costs stable.
Of course, if Scots were stupid enough to put Lab/LD back in, you might well be able to screw things up, as you would wish to spend the oil revenues to provide consistency and continuity by spending them on an aggressive/interventionist foreign policy through slavish adherence to US requests.
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315 Bongo
As I've said you can talk up fuel prices all you want.
I'll continue to support the need to lower those prices and continue to support the saving of lives.
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314. brownresolute
"Oldnat, wrong, again, fitting homes with heating systems is not a reserves matter.The winter fuel leevy still applies."
But you don't want change. All you want is continuity and consistency like a good Provo Tory.
Now if yoy agree to fiscal autonomy as a minimum we can change things - but I forgot. You don't want change.
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316
Yes roll-on-2010, those energy firms must be taxed right now and of cousre the tax must be redistributed to those most in need and the continuity of tax apon those firms must remain to help drive down the cost of energy for every house hold. Profits and bonus cultures must be drastically reduced.
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#314 Brownresolute, I am glad you noted the following also; "#308 Bongo, more people are concerned about the lack of water as to the lack of oil,in Libya water has a higher cost than oil."
Again, in Scotland we are lucky not to have this problem and have a plentiful water supply...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6869356.ece#
...It is however a separate issue, although it is equally as important and shares a similar status of being a finite commodity just as oil is.
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Guys, stop attacking big business. You'll scare away the investors ;-)
Perhaps we can reward projects or contracts for energy firms based on their prices to customers in Scotland, or would that be illegal?
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320. brownresolute
"those energy firms must be taxed right now"
Sorry. That doesn't provide consistency and continuity. So your proposal is not allowed.
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#318 Brownresolute, I wondered where Gordon Brown got his economic knowledge from?
Quote "I'll continue to support the need to lower those (oil) prices and continue to support the saving of lives."
Did you read the previous article I posted? Believe me, it will help you understand the siuation. Oil is FINITE and when demand for a commodity outstrips supply, the commodity becomes scarce and price increases as a result. This is the most basic principle of economics. Here is a link to the economic principle...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
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317 oldnat
"I totally agree. As oil prices increased the government revenue stream would be well in excess of that required to keep internal energy costs stable"
Oldnat you keep on persisting with your polomint politics and the middle parts pretty hollow. If oil prices escalate, then the real turn over in terms of revenue has a probability rise of just some 2.5Bn, are you telling us that you would stabilise the entire nations cost at pre-rising rates of fuel and petrol with your 2.5Bn increase. You cant offset economically that way?.
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#303 brownresolute
Energy in our neck of the woods a real must and a must that is affordable.It's hardly likely that renewables will be the new liquid gold in terms of profiting.
Delboy you have such a narrow mind.
Investment in renewable energy, at the outset, is a must for a number of reasons.
1 It will create jobs in the design, manufacture, installation and maintenance of renewable energy systems within Scotland. The systems and technologies that could be designed and built in Scotland could even be exported to other countries.
2 It could also be used to offset and reduce the cost and use of fossil fuels.
3 Fossil fuels have a shelf life and will certainly become heavily regulated and costs will increase as energy sources become scarce.
4 After becoming self sufficient Scotland could then either stockpile/sell energy to other countries.
5 You would also be leaving something of value for your children and future generations.
Don’t forget Delboy - For Scotland the future is bright, for everything else there is the Orange Order.
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brownresolute:
#320.
"Yes roll-on-2010, those energy firms must be taxed right now and of cousre the tax must be redistributed to those most in need and the continuity of tax apon those firms must remain to help drive down the cost of energy for every house hold. Profits and bonus cultures must be drastically reduced."
That's not the system... if an individual can make their company 50 million pounds in sales, do you honestly believe that person will not demand a share?
In a capitalist society you are paid a small fraction of what you actually earnt/contributed towards. That's the real system, if I made a company 100 million I would expect several million in my pocket or I would be off to and serve another company.
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324Bongo
I've already said that the price of oil does fluctuate but I have also pointed out to you that when the price of oil was at it's highest point of over $150 a barrel, the revenue increase is only a third.
So we are back to the 9Bn from oil revenue, giving that the price of a barrel has doubled?
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Interesting article in the Indy:
Could it be Miliband - and not Blair - for Europe?
The dark clouds that have gathered around Tony Blair's hopes of becoming EU President could yet reveal a silver lining for a younger British hopeful. Murmurs that David Miliband could be in the running for the number two post of EU high representative have grown louder in the past few days, amid tentative hopes nominations could be announced during next week's nail-biting summit in Brussels next week.
I suppose its one way to avoid the meltdown next year as NuLabour slide into oblivion.
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323oldnat
Consistency and continuity are the safety net for all UK residence.
A progressive think tank is absolute for the maintenance of consistency and continuity.
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#325 Brownresolute, there you go again banding figures about with no source for your information.
"Oldnat you keep on persisting with your polomint politics and the middle parts pretty hollow. If oil prices escalate, then the real turn over in terms of revenue has a probability rise of just some 2.5Bn, are you telling us that you would stabilise the entire nations cost at pre-rising rates of fuel and petrol with your 2.5Bn increase. You cant offset economically that way?."
...and it is not 'IF' oil prices escalate... its WHEN!
Oil is not the final answer or by any means, the whole picture... alternative energy sources are extremely significant(ie. potential of renewables).
Have you read any of my links at all? I'm seriously doubting it, as you are coming across as opinionated but with no arguments backed up with evidence or proof... just your personal oppinion/word which you are asking us all to accept as fact?
Bongo.
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325. brownresolute
"stabilise the entire nations cost"
I forgot! your nation is Britain. No, the other parts will have to live off their own resources. Scotland will continue to be a net exporter of energy for many years to come. If you don't understand the concept of "net export" then that simply demonstrates more fully that you don't understand economics.
However, since you want there to be continuity and consistency, you want the energy regulator to automatically increase costs anyway.
That might be a good idea to reduce the carbon footprint, but Scots would have a choice over that with independence. But you reject that. No change for derek! Tory to the end!
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330. brownresolute
"A progressive think tank is absolute for the maintenance of consistency and continuity. "
Your friends in the Tory Party have several "progressive" think tanks.
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Have you read this article yet Brownresolute?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=150102
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326 Roll-On-2010
I'm afraid your mind is the narrow one.
New employment, new skills, new energy, absolutely, more of a necessity and not for profit need.whether it went on to sell renewable energy world wide? I would doubt,most advanced nations have a will to produce energy also, however I may concede that Scotland could gain from the technology of producing renewables and again I would like to see any such profit returned and invested in creating more jobs and better conditions.
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If you don't like reading Brownresolute, I would suggest watching this as a starter for ten...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhYoXG9Mnmk
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336Bongo
When oil does "PEAK" then your argument for oil to be a sustainable revenue for Independence is gone.
Right now the hole world is trying to work together to meet the future demands, the concept of a world without oil is and will be like a brain without oxygen but the potential to create anew is fantastic, that's why Britain can again be major leader in new technologies for all mankind.
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Brownresolute,
You continue to contradict your own arguments...
@ #335 "Most advanced nations have a will to produce energy also, however I may concede that Scotland could gain from the technology of producing renewables"
@ #314 "More people are concerned about the lack of water as to the lack of oil,in Libya water has a higher cost than oil."
You seem to be suggesting that advanced nations can compete with Scotland regarding the production of renewable energy. However you accept that other nations are not as fortunate as Scotland regarding the availability of natural resources? (Necessary for the production of renewable energy of course)
I think I make my point... It takes more than will power alone to have the ability to become a net exporter of energy, you also need the raw materials. (Note that no one mentioned exporting world wide, but the rest of the British Isles and mainland Europe are potentially realistic and significant markets).
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#337 brownresolute
When oil does "PEAK" then your argument for oil to be a sustainable revenue for Independence is gone.
Right now the hole world is trying to work together to meet the future demands, the concept of a world without oil is and will be like a brain without oxygen but the potential to create anew is fantastic, that's why Britain can again be major leader in new technologies for all mankind.
Delboy you are absolutely bankrupt. You have a faith in a country that time and time again has let Scotland down and they are still doing it now and no faith in your own country. No faith whatsoever in the Scottish peoples ability, inventiveness, ingenuity, resilience and resolve to create and attain a realisable aspiration.
What a poor dream you have. I have reworded your last line below. Give your kids and their kids another reason to be proud of Scotland. After all, that pride and achievement flows throughout your countries history. To realise that dream you don’t need a bankrupt NuLabour party.
that's why Scotland can again be major leader in new technologies for all mankind.
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#338 BoNG0_1
Well put.
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#284
What a pathetic brand of debate you have.
Because I disagree with you I'm a Nazi and a racist? Is it any wonder why people like Nick Griffin get votes when a debate about free speech gets hijacked by playground "THAT'S RAAAAAAAAACIST!" jibes.
pathetic indeed.
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GAberdeen, I am with you on this.
I have never seen such a dreadful "debate".
This was a shout him down ,shut him up programme.
I'm sure he had an inkling that it would turn out that way,given the youthful mob outside and the fact he was huckled through a side door, but I was utterly appalled by the reception from audience , panellist and Dimbleby.
I believe you are correct in the assumption had he been allowed to speak he would have condemned himself, but he was shrieked at by hysterical panelists and audience.
On HYS it would seem he has gained sympathy and votes and that can be blamed on a mismanaged ,overhyped programme by the BBBC to cheer up the flagging viewing figures.
I dislike the idea that the media can deny oxygen to whomsoever it pleases - goodness knows , we Scots should be very aware of it.
I dislike the idea that the media can excercise undue influence on the voter.
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#298
Who reads the BUCKIE SQUEAK?!
ha ha! I haven't seen one of them since my school days!
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Although I personally enjoyed seeing Griffin squirm, I do not think it was appropriate for there to be such a loaded audience or panel. The whole programme was about Griffin and the BNP. I think an opportunity has been missed to allow Griffin to talk and be hung by his own words.
Having said that I don't think he has actually gained anything from the programme, poll by Yougov would suggest that it has had no impact on voting intentions. http://tinyurl.com/yg36mpf
However I think the hoohaa around the Question Time programme is masking a serious question as to why over 900,000 people voted BNP at the last Euro Elections, ok it may only by 6% but it is a significant number and is indicative of something.
Myself I think it is indicative of people being disenfranchised from main stream parties. Where image is more important than substance, where spin is more important than policy, where soundbite is more important than leadership. For example there is almost no media coverage of the Glasgow North East By Election, why is that?
There is also something around some of the utterances from the BNP striking a cord with people, I mean ordinary people who sense there is something not right about their perception of "immigration", something not quite right about the whole race awareness industry, something not right about the perception that the policy of sensitivity to ethnic minorities may have gone to far. Granted this is fed by an irresponsible media, however there is a perception. This is to my mind the real story of Griffin and the BNP.
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#337 Brownresolute, I just woke and came on here to see that our long debate a few hours ago endedwith you finally getting there. *;o)
After discusing Scotlands' opportunity to become a world leader in renwable energy due to Scotland having (in the words of Wikipedia) an extraordinary natural resource base. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland
uote; "That's why Britain can again be major leader in new technologies for all mankind."
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#312
The last redoubt of someone who has lost the argument? Attack the spelling!
I think I have made it clear enough that I am not a BNP supporter, but I am concerned about fairness.
It becomes more and more apparent that if you had been in the QT audience you would have been one of the squealers.
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Online Ed Here
283. At 00:21am on 24 Oct 2009, Roll_On_2010 wrote:
Listened to the Big Debate earlier and one subjects that was brought up was the plight of asylum seekers in Glasgow NE. Why Willie Bain was not plastered with the following, I posted recently on NR blog, is beyond me.
Those right wing thugs are cutting more.
Benefit support for asylum seekers is to be cut from tomorrow to £5 a day - just over half of what the government says a person needs to live on, according to refugee welfare agencies.
Yep NuLabour hitting the most defenceless group of people in the UK. Bet Duff feels proud!
Bain was confronted on two fronts, the amount of money these individuals have to live on and the fact that they can only be represented by an MP - Kerr pointed out that they have had no MP for six months whilst suggesting that whilst waiting for an appeal or similar they be allowed to earn some sort of wage.
Bain, quite amazingly, basically answered that these people should go home if they are unsuccessfull in their original application - no appeal then!!
It demonstrates just how right wing Labour have become over many issues.
Finally:
A story in The Herald about a proposed £400 million development in Springburn, Glagow council have yet to approve the application. Will this play as a Scottish Government success?
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181. Donald_McNairn
Donald a very negative post based in the past. More about what Labour has done. When the SFT finally comes to fuition it will be an evolution of PFI, there has to be a way of borriwing money.
However none of this tells me what the aspirations and intended achievements of the next 10 years are if we are independent. I don't want detailed policies, just a vision, something inspirational to think over.
Your post says copy the Irish, Norwegians etc. They are different countries with different problems. Ireland is probably the closest to Scotland, but I wouldn't want the Irish NHS or pension arrangements. It is much too simple to say copy someone else.
So your basis of argument really remains well its worth doing because it is the least worst option. that is not innovative or visionary. I don't want a nationalist argument based on labour failings. They are there for all to see.
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oops newer meant to post my #345 yet... still waking up :o)
where was I?....
...ah yes, 'Scotland's extraordinary natural resource base'.
and then you state "that's why 'Britain' can again be major leader in new technologies for all mankind." (in your post #337)
well, that is that then. You must realise that it is Scotland who has the huge renewable natural resource base (England has a fair ammount, but not on anywhere near the same scale of Scotland).
This is an interesting development, where you have moved from a position of Scotland is safer in the union "consistancy and continuation" were the words you used as opposed to "uncertainty", to a point that Scotland should share (or give away for free) the benefits of it's natural resource base to the rest of the UK. Hopefully you are now seeing that we do not need the union to be able to look after ourselves? We are quite capable and have the means to do this quite fine on our own.
If anything It is England who will miss our future input, but I am sure Scotland will do all she can to help out our southern brothers.
Finally, in your post # 243...
"If you advocate to change little in terms of the crown, the armed forces and the day to day living of the peoples, then! Bongo, whats the point. Change for Change sake?
I hope you see that change always happens. It is forced upon us, just as it will be with the impending change from our dependency on oil to the development of the new renewables as a replacement. It is how we react and deal with that change that is the most important aspect and that is certainly not change for changes sake!
Regards,
Bongo.
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#348 Northhighlander; "I don't want a nationalist argument based on labour failings."
Maybe you want to read my posts on this thread in my debate with Brownresolute, I think I put forward a fairly innovative and visionary scenario for a future independent Scotland.
Regards,
Bongo.
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morning , Anyone else notice the wee outbreak of slip of the tongue-itus on radio Scotland? when talking about question time say SNP and not bmp and if anyone complains "oops i seem to have made a wee mistake "some 20 minutes later.
RADIO SCOTLAND - had a piece this morning about why the bnp got on question-time "they must be seen to be balanced" and then they give us Newsweek Scotland - words fail me!
Glasgow north-east- labour cannot campaign on there record in the constituency,in the district council,the Scottish Parliament or Westminster, so WHY ARE WE STILL DEBATING RELIGION on here? Get real people!
Sid
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190. oldnat
The concordat in principle is a good thing. Ring fencing was not a good idea, but to understand the whole issue we must first look at why Labour introduced ring fencing. It was done as a way of ensuring national policies were introduced in a uniform way across local authorities.
The idea of the concordat is to still have the national policies but let the councils decide how to implement. Now no-one at all can argue with that principle, it is the correct way to govern. Allow local people to make local decisions.
However in practice that is not really what happens. We still quite rightly have the national policies for the councils to implement. Adjustments are made to the block grant, then the councils start to implement. Then they realise the number of new policies doesn't match the increase in funding, like free school meals, meaning money has to be found from elsewhere.
Look at the School building programme. the SNP announce 14 new schools, the councils then find out it is only 2/3rds of a new school they have to fund the remaining 3rd out of existing funds. Announcing something that in reality is not what it says it is to et positive headlines...Now where did they learn that trick?
So the centre effectively still controls the agenda of local government, particularly when the council tax freeze is added to the mix. Local governments are now completely dependant on central government for all their funding. They are free to only to make cuts to support national priorities.
That is why I criticise the concordat, it doesn't do what is says on the tin. A very clever piece of politics, but is not sustainable in the long term and isn't what is says it is.
I don't disagree with the need to reduce inefficiency in local government, that is a good thing, but local decision making should be precisely that, local and devolved without a central government hand on the tiller.
Again it points to politician telling us one thing and doing something quite different, now this could be the law of unintended consequence's, but that would be stretching credibility too far.
Inherently the SNP and Labour aren't that much different, in Holyrood the policy of both has been to retain power in the centre. Anyway the SNP have a great opportunity to be different from Labour, they are setting the Agenda for a post independent Scotland, should the nation choose it, but the draft constitution doesn't reinforce devolved decision making in any way, it lacks any real vision in this area. Which tells me that they still have a centralist mentality.
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198. fifebirder
There was nothing in my post that implied we are to wee etc etc. Look at my previous posts you won't find any such comments. That is a well worn and tired nationalist phrase used to try to discredit any argument you don't like. Time to move on. Debate the issues not what you want me to say.
I am not inherently opposed to Independence I just want some good reasons to vote for it. I don't expect guarantees, that would be ridiculous. I would expect though some clear thought as to how the life of ordinary Scots would improve, how the nation would prosper.
Independence could hurt Scotland. To say it is a no risk option is wrong. Our whole relationship with the EU would need to be different, there are risks in this. There are many more but that is negative and this is not the correct post.
As to the purse strings argument fine you are right. But the areas where we have control what different solutions have we developed? Where is the post recession ideas that will change our lives?
Independence might bring democracy closer to you, it will make little difference to me. So again we need an argument that is a little better than there is no alternative. The alternative is more Labour, the alternative could be more labour in an Independent Scotland.
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346. hamish42
"It becomes more and more apparent that if you had been in the QT audience you would have been one of the squealers."
While you would have been cheering.
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313. Thomas_Porter
"Yes... certainly without principals. Two wrongs do not make it right..."
Obviously we disagree. I hold racism to be wrong as a matter of principle.
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341. GAberdeen
"Because I disagree with you I'm a Nazi and a racist?"
Saying it is only because you disagree with me may help you evade the real reasons, but it doesn't fool me. Whether you admit it or not, you and others are promoting the idea that it is now "understandable" or even "respectable" to vote BNP. You are aiding and abetting Griffin in his propaganda campaign to portray himself and his gang of racist, anti-democratic thugs as the persecuted underdogs of politics. You serve the BNP well.
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281. Electric Hermit
"It was Dimbleby who saved Griffin further embarrassment by moving on to other topics. And Griffin still had nothing meaningful to say. He wanted to play with the "big boys". He wasn't up to the job."
The problem is that the 'big boys' demonstrated to the viewing public that they weren't either. There are clearly issues which rightly or wrongly a section of the electorate feel the BNP is offering solutions to, the 'big boys' needed to show either why the issues were in fact non-issues or why the BNP approach to them was wrong - that's what they chose not to do, and it's that combined with the mobbing behaviour that painted the worst person on the panel in the best possible light.
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# 264 Sneckagain
In short yes. Plus the general content. While you are at it have a look at the general content of the Herald on Sunday. Exactly the same. I suspect that, the nearer you get to the GE, the more you will see pro union material and letters. It's as if the Herald goes out of the way to demonstrate its "loyalty" to the Union and the Establishment at these times. I expect that once the GE is past, it will float back to a more neutral stance until a referendum hoves into view. Then we'll have the same again and possibly worse
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#357, isn't it ironic that the BBC have a distaste for Alex Salmond being given a platform... but he is probably the one person who would have calmly and in a reasoned manner tore Nick Griffins arguments apart!
One nationalst to the other *;o)
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200. At 5:05pm on 23 Oct 2009, U14094468 wrote:
"Online Ed Here"
You are right, but I listened to all and the BBC Radio Scotland presenter said SNP instead of BNP more than just once, go back to 33 minutes and he said it then too, and this was with his callers consistently saying BNP; difficult to accept it as a slip of the tongue.
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344. oldbuthopeful
"However I think the hoohaa around the Question Time programme is masking a serious question as to why over 900,000 people voted BNP at the last Euro Elections, ok it may only by 6% but it is a significant number and is indicative of something. "
It is not as "significant" a number as BNP's supporters and apologists like to pretend. They like to peddle their pro-racist propaganda under the guise of a concern for democracy and fairness. But if that were anything other than a total sham they'd be campaigning on behalf of the Greens instead of the BNP.
You push the idea that the BNP's 900,000 (943,598) votes is "significant" enough to warrant giving this openly racist and anti-democratic organisation a public platform and preferential treatment by the media, while completely ignoring a genuinely democratic party which polled 30% more votes (1,223,303/8.6%) that the BNP.
The hypocrisy and double standards is blatant. And it exposes the true agenda of Griffin's sympathisers trying sell the idea that is now "acceptable" to vote BNP just because he couldn't meet the challenge of defending his odious ideology on TV.
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Online Ed here
351. At 09:50am on 24 Oct 2009, sidthesceptic wrote:
morning , Anyone else notice the wee outbreak of slip of the tongue-itus on radio Scotland? when talking about question time say SNP and not bmp and if anyone complains "oops i seem to have made a wee mistake "some 20 minutes later.
Click Here, go to 44 minutes and listen for 30 seconds.
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357. mrbfaethedee
"...that painted the worst person on the panel in the best possible light."
You evidently see Griffin through different eyes.
The panel and the audience were hostile. That is to be expected. But the picture Griffin's sympathisers are trying to paint of an innocent man being hounded and shouted down is completely false. Griffin had plenty opportunity to speak. But when he did speak he simply confirmed all the very valid reasons why there was such hostility.
What we heard was a racist desperately trying to rationalise his racism. In what possible way does that unedifying spectacle contribute to political debate?
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@362 Online Ed and Sid ,re the accidental use of SNP when the presenter meant BNP I would venture to suggest that it was easy to for him to become confused.
Forget the huge differences between the SNP and the BNP, for BBC Radio Scotland one party is a threat to Labour in Scotland and the other could damage Labour in England. For them conflating the two is an easy mistake to make because both parties are "the enemy".
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356#
And your acting no better than a facist on this board
It will be your ilk that garners more support for that wretched party - you wait and see.
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#364, Grassy; "I would venture to suggest that it was easy to for him to become confused."
Just shows some of the 'class acts' the BBC regularly roll in front of the cameras!
On the topic, I couldn't care less about BBC London, the BNP are irrelevant in Scotland. The English would be well advised to deal with problems specific to them. We will deal with our own sectarian and intolerance problems.
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A suggestion on Guido from one of the bloggers, the chap who was given air time to make his speech at the beginning of QT, and be cheered to the rafters ,was a Labour Party activist and actor - QI say I!
EH , you are starting to sound a little pompous and you are stifling debate by throwing "racist" at folk who are pointing out that free speech and a fair hearing were far from the objectives of Question Time.
The BBBC seem to have benefitted in viewing figures , not the usual half dozen and a wayward Peruvian earthworm.
I think the Peruvian earthworms emergence coincided with my
" Goodness! This programme is past its sell by date"
I had more pleasure from the daft comments than the drivellings of QT panel members.
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356. Electric Hermit various
Why sacrifice free speech to swat a gnat?
As you are obviosly against free speech for all then until you get rewired I'll leave you in your totalitarian state.
Indy F1 farce a few years ago if you must know.
A
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Online Ed Here
Is there signs of panic within Labour?
I ask only because they appear to be getting a little desperate and are calling on the help of The Record in order to help print distortions.
Click Here
I remarked yesterday that I felt that Bain suffers with every exposure to the mainsteam media. Enlisting the help in order to misrepresent what David Kerr said suggests that Kerr may well be making inroads.
The SNP are playing a remarkably patient and low profile game - will Bain's negativity backfire?
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368
A fantastic article. Kudos to Parris.
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I'ts not the BBC protesters should have marched on. I'ts downing street.
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363. Electric Hermit
"You evidently see Griffin through different eyes."
I'll carify my position on Griffin for you -
He is an intellectual nonentity.
He is a media-wise non-entity.
He is even a poor demagogue.
I'll clarify my position on the BNP for you -
I am opposed to the BNP's race based position on essentially their only policy - immigration & repatriation.
I am neither a sympathiser nor an apologist for either the BNP or Nick Griffin.
I don't think our eyes differ much on their opinion of Griffin and the BNP, but I'm ready to be corrected.
"The panel and the audience were hostile. That is to be expected. But the picture Griffin's sympathisers are trying to paint of an innocent man being hounded and shouted down is completely false. Griffin had plenty opportunity to speak. But when he did speak he simply confirmed all the very valid reasons why there was such hostility."
As an aside, could you just be clear that when talk about sympathisers and apologists you aren't referring to anyone who has posted in this comment thread about it?
I think when people are saying he was hounded and shouted down, i'm not sure they mean that's what happened in the instances of specific questions. I think it does characterise the whole episode though. IMO, this is because of all the specific instances (q&a's), the majority were simply about why the Griffin, the BNP and its policies were wrong by virtue of morality. Very few attempts were made to isolate the issues which the BNP had managed to garner support for, and then allow the rest of the panel & audience to demonstrate why BNP's stance was wrong in practice.
That's why people can quite easily characterise the whole episode as one of just 'having a go' at the BNP. It's not through sympathy, it's through dissappointment at the mainstream parties and media once more to fail to actually meet the issues head on. The people who voted for the BNP already know they are racist - they are either racist themselves already, or they attach a massive 'but' to their opinion of the BNP because they feel that the mainstream parties have lost touch with them and their needs. So sitting the public down in front of QT to be told that the BNP are a bunch of morally, politically, and intellectually bankrupt racists doesn't address the actual problem at all.
"What we heard was a racist desperately trying to rationalise his racism. In what possible way does that unedifying spectacle contribute to political debate?"
It doesn't, I (and i'm sure most others here) would agree, but that's because of the failure of the beeb, Dimbelby and panel to actually go after the political stance of the BNP and what actually underlies it. You seem to see that as sympathy for Griffin & co, I think you are simply misreading criticism of the lost opportunity.
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I note that the Greens are going to refer the BBC's giving time to the BNP during the by-election to Ofcom - IIRC Ofcom doesn't deal with the BBC which self-regulates (or rather doesn't).
It seems rather unlikely that any potential Green voter will defect to the BNP for any reason. Indeed since they significantly overlap with the LDs, these parties may well be sharing the notional 1% that the LDs got in 2001.
But will QT affect the by-election? It would seem a distinct possibility. The BNP got 3% of the vote in 2005. They may pick up some of the 5% Con/Unionist vote (2001 & 2005). It seems highly unlikely that they will take any of the Socialist votes (8% 2001, 19% 2005), or the 18% SNP vote (2001 & 2005).
At a by-election, in an area with a high proportion of asylum seekers, they are likely to have been given the publicity they needed to attract more of the racists (and the dwindling number who think of themselves as British working class) in the constituency who previously voted Labour.
A saved BNP deposit and the possibility of coming as high as 4th would be a boost for racism in Scotland, which would be appalling.
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373. oldnat
One saving grace, however, is that the racist anti-Muslim vote would go to Smeaton.
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Online Ed Here
For the record:
I was opposed to Griffin being allowed on this particular forum, it is generally a discussion on a diverse range of subjects and was not suited to a scrutiny of BNP policies.
The BBC effectively had to contort the format of the programme and in doing so caused damage to themselves.
People who are not normally interested in politics and who previously could not name the leader of the BNP are now feeling some sympathy for a man they felt was hounded, perception amongst 'ordinary' voters has been ignored throughout the media, the BBC have come very close to creating a martyr.
They have also demonstrated what many of us in Scotland have been saying for some time - the BBC will allow partisan feelings within the organisation to influence political output and debate.
The BBC are behaving more and more like a de-facto political party.
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And that is what worries me ,Online.
If we do not defend Griffin over that travesty of a QT by the BBBC, then we allow BBBC Scotland - already conflating SNP/BNP - to play politics on behalf of the Labour party.
Demonstrably biased to start with, who knows what bilge will be fed to the eager masses as fact over the next couple of weeks prior to the NE bi-election?
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I can really see the traditional Labour North-East diehard vote being seriously fragmented.
Staunch Labourites have Smeato to turn to and I suspect a considerable number will do, due to his profile. The more socialist inclined will maybe opt for Tommy Sherridan as he also has a high profile.
While Labour could be shedding votes, I think the SNP (due to their current popularity and the independence policy), will likely hold their core vote which
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349Bongo
Check back the posts, I said from the start that Scotland did have renewable energy potential (potential) you based your original arugument on Scotlands ability to have a stable income from oil revenue.
You then realised that you couldn't sustain that argument and moved directly to the potential new energy and the end of oil argument.
You may forward an apology if you like. I wont hold my breath.
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#378, sorry Brownresolute, but I am actually a researcher into the concept of Peak oil and an environmentalist. There is no way I based my argument for an independent Scotland on fossil fuels.
Quote; "Check back the posts, I said from the start that Scotland did have renewable energy potential (potential) you based your original arugument on Scotlands ability to have a stable income from oil revenue."
Which post are you referring to and which statement?
The point I am really trying to get you to see, is that Scotland does not want to lose out on the benefits from the very otimistic future renewables industry, in the same way it lost out on the oil industry over the last few decades (refer to Norway oil fund). This also provides my argument that Scotland has more than sufficient resources and potential to create a better future than is claimed by those who wish to stand still in the union.
I also pointed out that the change due to oil depletion/peak oil is not a choice... it is a reality that we have to face.
The question is, do we let Westminster control the massive benefits that the renewable industry will certainly bring us or do we decide that we have had enough of poverty (as in NE Glasgow) and take back full control of our own future from the constant Labour/Tory neglect from London?
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349 Bongo
As far as renewables go, I believe there is an opportunity to create a publically owned asset, that could create employment and give the UK a future of sustainable energy needs.
You try and make the argument that we could sell off excess energy to Europe?. I ask you this, does Norway or France or Germany and Sweden not have their own energy means?.( to mention a few)
Alex Salmond wanted to put 100Bn into saving one bank, he effectively created the tag " arc of insolvency" Bongo, the SNP cant even deliver on school buildings never mind renewables.Bongo I also tell you this. Renewable energy alone will not be enough to feed the worlds energy needs and there will be a role for nuclear means as well.
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378 Bongo
You are trying to make the argument for Independence (agree) I ask you again what would an Independent Scottish government collect interms of taxation to govern with?.
Your keep relating to the "PEAK" of oil, yes, when oil does run out the human race will have to put it's thinking hat on and yes there are people doing such investigative work and research into that future reality but the idea that Scotland is working alone and will be the sole creator of new energy ideas is plain daft and just untrue.It is and will be a world wide problem, where the G20 work together to try and resolve.
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365. GAberdeen
"It will be your ilk that garners more support for that wretched party - you wait and see."
Take responsibility for your own actions. If you choose to support and even vote for anti-democratic racists at least have the courage to stand by your choice and not claim so pathetically that somebody made you do it.
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#380, you are simply either deliberately being closed minded or you are really just not getting this!
Quote; "As far as renewables go, I believe there is an opportunity to create a publically owned asset, that could create employment and give the UK a future of sustainable energy needs."
...Why should we hand our assets away to rich folk in the South East of England (I post the following link yet again)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland
The very first paragraph states...
"The production of renewable energy in Scotland is an issue that has come to the fore in technical, economic, and political terms during the opening years of the 21st century.[1] The natural resource base for renewables is EXTRAORDINARY by European, and even global standards."
Just what part of that do you not understand and just exactly who's best interests do you have at heart? It certainly does not appear to be that of Scotlands, since you want to simply give OUR natural resources away so easily.
However, the bottom line is that you argued (for all intents and purposes), that Scotland could not support itself... you are now suggesting that the UK needs us!
...It is either one or the other... Which is it?
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367. Diabloandco
"EH , you are starting to sound a little pompous and you are stifling debate by throwing "racist" at folk who are pointing out that free speech and a fair hearing were far from the objectives of Question Time."
How could I possibly "stifle debate". Only the Moderators can do that. If people choose to sympathise with and/or support a racist they must expect others to comment on the fact. Whether they themselves would admit to being racists, they are aiding and abetting one of the worst by promulgating Griffin's propaganda about being a prophet without honour in his own land - a persecute underdog.
We have a saying where I come from. I you fly with the crows....
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368. cynicalHighlander
"As you are obviosly against free speech for all then until you get rewired I'll leave you in your totalitarian state."
This is the kind of nonsense that will tend to result from getting over-emotional. Try dealing with the facts. I have always been in favour of allowing the BNP a public platform. Griffin got the platform he wanted. He blew it! Big style!
And now his supporters and apologists are whining because others exercised the same right of free speech as they demand for their Beloved Leader. Not only do they want Griffin to be allowed to spew his bilious idiocy, they want him to be allowed to do so unchallenged.
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372. mrbfaethedee
"As an aside, could you just be clear that when talk about sympathisers and apologists you aren't referring to anyone who has posted in this comment thread about it?"
How can I do that when there are some who are clearly intent on furthering the BNP's propaganda. How might one distinguish between them and those who are intent on furthering the BNP's aims?
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#381, Your keep relating to the "PEAK" of oil, yes, when oil does run out the human race will have to put it's thinking hat on"
Peak oil is predicted to happen in the next 10 years (at best), this is not some issue for the future... we may already have run out of time to do anything significant to resolve this crisis. Wake up to this fact Browneresolute.
"The International Energy Agency believes peak oil will come perhaps by 2020. But it also believes that we are heading for an even earlier 'oil crunch' because demand after 2010 is likely to exceed dwindling supplies."
Source; "http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/warning-oil-supplies-are-running-out-fast-1766585.html
Quote; "...and yes there are people doing such investigative work and research into that future reality but the idea that Scotland is working alone and will be the sole creator of new energy ideas is plain daft and just untrue.It is and will be a world wide problem, where the G20 work together to try and resolve."
...You miss the point, of course Scotland is not working alone on a solution, but we also have to look after ourselves at the same time. Did Saudi Arabia just say, heck we have a lot of this oil stuff, let's give it to Scotland because there is a lot of poverty in North East Glasgow. Of course they didn't, they sold us the stuff and made a mint. I am all for Scotland doing the same with it's renewable industry. It is time we Scots benefitted for a change.
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383Bongo
" "The production of renewable energy in Scotland is an issue that has come to the fore in technical, economic, and political terms during the opening years of the 21st century.[1] The natural resource base for renewables is EXTRAORDINARY by European, and even global standards."
You have to extract the energy and the means to extract and supply are the key goals.Again who will we sell any excess energy to?.
"However, the bottom line is that you argued (for all intents and purposes), that Scotland could not support itself... you are now suggesting that the UK needs us!"
Agian you refer that Scotland would be richer with Independence.Again I ask you to give a figure(££££££) of how much more wealthier would an Independent Scotland be?.
You have fell into a trap again by basing all of Scotlands future wealth on renewables and renewable energy alone and you have clearly not even researched the market.
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381. brownresolute
"I ask you again what would an Independent Scottish government collect interms of taxation to govern with?"
Well, at least we know what the UK will do. According to you last night, the UK (regardless of ruling party) will raise taxes and spend at current levels in perpetuity. "Consistency and continuation" can mean nothing else, and the UK will plunge deeper and deeper into unsupportable levels.
If you meant something else, then your demands that we publish tax levels that would be in place in several years time are simply posturing, scaremongering and the politics of fear because you have nothing positive to offer. You can tell us nothing about the UK's financial future, but you imagine that the boom years - when Brown staked everything on the financial sector - will continue.
Not only will they not continue, but they are in the past. We don't have the data yet, since Labour postponed their publication. Your economics are as barren as all your other policies.
Do let us know when any post-boom economic data is available, won't you?
In the meantime the UK has had 6 consecutive quarters of recession. It had the highest ever addition to debt in September.
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372. mrbfaethedee
"It doesn't, I (and i'm sure most others here) would agree, but that's because of the failure of the beeb, Dimbelby and panel to actually go after the political stance of the BNP and what actually underlies it."
This ignores the fact that there is neither breadth nor depth to Griffin's politics. It is not as if the BNP's views are a secret waiting to be prised out of their leader by cunningly framed questions. The political stance of the BNP was not in question. Griffin was there, not to explain it, but to try and rationalise it. He was not seeking to expound some arcane political philosophy. He is not even capable of such a thing. He was there seeking to throw a veil of respectability over his odious and corrupt ideology. He failed. That failure was his alone. To pretend otherwise is to serve his anti-democratic agenda.
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385. Electric Hermit
"his supporters and apologists are whining"
Quite right they are. No sympathy from me for them.
However, your posts appear to suggest that some posters here are included among "supporters and apologists".
Does that include me?
I posted just after the broadcast that the BBC chose the wrong format, location and approach that allowed those that were potential sympathisers of the BNP to have some sympathy, instead of being alienated by him.
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#390 Electric Hermit
I was on one of the demos on Thursday and agree with you 100 percent. There should be no platform for fascists.
Now we have people demanding not only that fascists should be allowed to expound their "philosophy" but that they should be treated *respectfully* while they're on television. I don't get that, to be honest.
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387 Bongo
Your not grasping this? are you.
" You miss the point, of course Scotland is not working alone on a solution, but we also have to look after ourselves at the same time. Did Saudi Arabia just say, heck we have a lot of this oil stuff, let's give it to Scotland because there is a lot of poverty in North East Glasgow. Of course they didn't, they sold us the stuff and made a mint. I am all for Scotland doing the same with it's renewable industry. It is time we Scots benefitted for a change."
Who are we going to sell any future energy excess to?.Look 44% of NE Glasgow are in amongst the unemployment stats and poverty levels, yet Mr Swinney pulls any future GARL project from beneath their feet.
Two years on what practical and see able efforts has the SNP put into carbon capture and renewable energy.
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389oldnat
Apparently you running on empty as far as knowledge goes.
The SNP stole the last Scottish election through promising policies that it knew it couldn't deliver on. (student debt, schools, pupil numbers, energy,police budgets, employment, care,)
If you want Independence, then you better be serious about what it will deliver and let the people know the truth and that means oldnat the truth about what type of budget a Scottish Independent parliament would have.
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393. brownresolute
"Look 44% of NE Glasgow are in amongst the unemployment stats and poverty levels, yet Mr Swinney pulls any future GARL project from beneath their feet."
Why would GARL have affected employment in Glasgow NE? The line would have been built in Renfrew. Why are Labour victimising Renfrew in favour of Glasgow? Why do you want to discriminate against the unemployed of Renfrew? Why are Wendy Alexander and Hugh Hendry so craven in the face of the Glasgow Labour Mafia?
See, two can play at partisan localism. :-)
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394. brownresolute
"If you want Independence, then you better be serious about what it will deliver and let the people know the truth and that means oldnat the truth about what type of budget a Scottish Independent parliament would have. "
If you want the UK Union, then you better be serious about what it will deliver and let the people know the truth and that means derek the truth about what type of budget a UK parliament would have.
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#388, quote "Again who will we sell any excess energy to?"
Answer) England, Wales via the National Grid and even possibly Europe.
Quote, quote "Again you refer that Scotland would be richer with Independence. Again I ask you to give a figure(££££££) of how much more wealthier would an Independent Scotland be?"
You are beyond help (sheech!). I referred that Scotland should control and directly benefit from its' own resources. Independence is the only way to do this... what's difficult to understand here?
Unlike you and your banding unqualified figures about in your post #278, I admit to not being able to throw about exact figures (£££££)... it's a flaming stupid question to be honest. Basically, the benefit will be maximised, the more we invest in renewables, the earlier we do it, the opportunities to sell energy, taxation, inward investment etc.
Fiscal benefits gained in Scotland will stay in Scotland, rather than gifted to others outside Scotland like the oil revenues.
No-Brainer!!!
Quote; "You have fell into a trap again by basing all of Scotlands future wealth on renewables and renewable energy alone and you have clearly not even researched the market."
You are really hard going...refer back to my post #298, cos you really are spinning around in circles now.
To be honest, I have stuff to do and I am going out now, so this is the end of the debate for me.
Regards,
Bongo.
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#394, "389oldnat
Apparently you running on empty as far as knowledge goes."
...I ran empty Oldnat, as far as Brownresolute goes!
*;o)
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#397Bongo
"Answer) England, Wales via the National Grid and even possibly Europe."
England is building two brand new nuclear energy plants that will supply England, Wales and N, Ireland.I dont think you will sell energy there?.
"
Fiscal benefits gained in Scotland will stay in Scotland, rather than gifted to others outside Scotland like the oil revenues.
No-Brainer!!!"
Scotland already claws back over 90% of it's oil revenues?. So what your point, what gains?.
"To be honest, I have stuff to do and I am going out now, so this is the end of the debate for me."
Typical nationalist, light a fire then run away. goodbye!
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395 oldnat
Oldnat, you may like to close the door on employment opportunities in the Glasgow NE area but others think they have the right to apply where ever they like for employment.
Your Beginning too sound like a little general.;)~
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388. brownresolute
Where we are headed: Peak oil and the financial crisis
We live in a finite world and while population grows the available resources shrink resulting in a world wide reduction in GDP. Google "Limits to Growth" and read rather than political party manifestos.
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398. BoNG0_1
Yeah. We cheat by knowing things that aren't in his briefing pack.
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391. oldnat
"I posted just after the broadcast that the BBC chose the wrong format, location and approach that allowed those that were potential sympathisers of the BNP to have some sympathy, instead of being alienated by him."
I will not validate in any way the notion that Griffin and the BNP are deserving of any sympathy whatever. Griffin got the platform he wanted. The claims that the programme was rigged against him are complete nonsense. Does anybody seriously imagine that the BBC had to actively recruit people who find Griffin's ideology repellent? He inspires hostility. The only way it could have been otherwise would have been if the programme was rigged in his favour. This seems to be what some here want.
I am not pointing the finger at anyone. They will know who they are.
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400. brownresolute
You wouldn't have got a job there anyway, derek. A lot of steelwork involved - and you've had an irony by-pass!
Actually, it was only when I heard Kerr talking about Glasgow NE that I realised that there were lots of people there who really wanted jobs. Before then, I'd taken Lord Foulkes to be telling the truth when he said "they're all underclass". See Labour MSPs. See contempt for the unemployed.
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392. fourstrikes
"I was on one of the demos on Thursday and agree with you 100 percent. There should be no platform for fascists. "
Not quite 100%, then, as I have always been opposed to compromising the democrat-c principle of free speech on account of these anti-democratic scum.
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401 cynicalHighlander
Yes! the point was made well by Bongo! "peak oil" but what are you trying to develop here?.
Look, the experts told us decades ago that when they closed down the pits,we here in Britain would face fuel poverty.Today we have the potential to extract fossil fuel and capture it's carbon emissions.
Copenhagen promises to be a very interesting gathering and Britain has the potential to be part of a very exciting programme to deal with climate and renewable needs.I'm pretty sure you will agree that climate change and renewable energy needs are not compact to Independence but generally open to global togetherness.
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386. Electric Hermit
"How can I do that when there are some who are clearly intent on furthering the BNP's propaganda. How might one distinguish between them and those who are intent on furthering the BNP's aims?"
By taking what people say at face value surely. If someone says something along the lines of - 'I don't support the BNP or their policies, but the treatment given to them was poor and/or the other parties didn't tackle issues either' - then I'd take them at their word even if I held the belief that this situation has helped the BNP.
Just because I think someone has been poorly treated gives no cause for anyone to infer that i sympathise with, apologise for, or support any positions they may hold.
If on the other hand someone says that they think that BNP has some good points in their position on immigration or whetever, then you're obviously on much stronger ground if you choose to claim that they are BNP supporters.
I don't recall seeing a single post on here that looks like anyone is out to further the BNP's propoganda. If you want to p