The Goldie conundrum
Herewith a Monday conundrum for you.
At the Conservative conference in Manchester, they liked Annabel Goldie's speech.
They chuckled from time to time. They applauded still more frequently.
But the bits they liked most were the attack lines - whereas the most significant, lasting message was one of conciliation.
Policy announcements, there were - protection for whistleblowers in the NHS, support for business start-ups.
Those received decent support from the hall, commensurate perhaps with an acknowledgement of the Tories' relatively modest strength in the Scottish Parliament.
Again, though, the lines that got them going were more fundamental, more gutsy. They applauded enthusiastically when Miss Goldie declared: "We believe in Britain, not narrow nationalism."
'No way'
Miss Goldie received warmer applause still when she condemned the notion of "wrenching Scotland out of a successful and strong relationship with the rest of Britain."
The mustered representatives cheered as the Scottish Tory leader added, for emphasis: "Absolutely not. No way." (To get the effect, try reading that line aloud in Annabel's distinctive tones. Go on, nobody's watching.)
So we've got it. Alex Salmond's a perfect pest. A beast who wants to wreck Britain. Annabel Goldie will "fight tooth and nail" against Mr Salmond's vision.
Indeed, she appealed to him to abandon his "obsession" with independence.
I expect that, duly chastened, Mr Salmond is already preparing to shelve the essential objective which his party has sought since its foundation seventy five years ago.
But back to that conundrum. Alongside this rhetoric, Miss Goldie stated: "If he is elected, David Cameron has pledged a relationship of mutual respect between our British and Scottish Governments."
What's that? Respect for the wrecker, for the would-be destroyer of Britain? Respect for a Scottish government run by a party whose views on the constitution are "extreme" and "narrow"?
'All right?'
Yes, absolutely. And here's why. Miss Goldie boldly declared that she will return more Tory MPs from Scotland at the next UK General Election.
Given that the current tally is one - count him, one - that may not seem like a particularly challenging target.
But, of course, it is. Here in Manchester, the Tories can barely restrain themselves from doing a Kinnock, Sheffield vintage, and yelling: "Are you all right?!!!"
They expect, firmly, to win. They had to be reminded by William Hague that they need a substantial swing in their favour - and that the voting system or, more accurately, the distribution of seats favours their opponents.
Chill, he said. Calm down. No complacency. A task which, in Scotland, is considerably easier not least because there are relatively few seats which look like going their way, not least because the existing Labour vote has other places to go or may hold up.
So, if David Cameron is chosen as First Lord of the Treasury in Her Majesty's United Kingdom, then he may well find that he still has very limited support in Scotland, perhaps a handful of MPs at best.
Mr Cameron is alert to that challenge - and has signalled that he would seek a compact with the first minister.
Reserved matters
In Manchester, I'm hearing one or two grumbles that Team Cameron isn't fully alert to the extent of the problem. Not sure about that: for me, he is at the very least addressing the issue with seriousness and diligence.
The basis of the compact would be that D. Cameron, prime minister, would keep out of Scottish devolved, domestic politics while inviting A.Salmond, first minister, to reciprocate with regard to reserved UK matters.
That is why Miss Goldie talked of "mutual respect". It would be a two-way deal.
So here's the rub? Would Alex Salmond co-operate? My sense is that he would pursue his present broad strategy while using the opportunities which the emergency of a Tory government might present.
To recall, the present strategy is to govern sensibly and modestly within the limits of devolution while concomitantly inviting the voters to infer how much better things could be with the full powers of independence.
With occasional, excitable exceptions, I believe Mr Salmond has stuck to that strategy.
Rivals, of course, may dispute the policy choices made: Miss Goldie objected today to universally free prescriptions.
Sceptical public
But, mostly, SNP ministers have worked within the ambit of devolution rather than mounting a sustained, permanent protest about the limitations of power.
Not from lack of ambition or fear but from calculation: they believe this is the best way to convince a sceptical Scottish public to grant the SNP their longer-term objective of independence.
I do not believe that would change fundamentally under a Conservative UK government.
Yes, there would be a campaigning opportunity for Mr Salmond to object that the Tories would be governing Scotland with perhaps only a few seats north of the Border.
But that would be a political debating point, not a pointer to the nature of governance. I do not believe that SNP ministers would, for example, refuse to work with a Tory administration.
That, if you like, would be "picking endless fights with London", the accusation which customarily comes Mr Salmond's way.
Rather, I think that the essential, underlying strategy would remain in place.
Spending cuts
However, there might well be more opportunity for political point-scoring. That might particularly prove to be the case if or rather when the cuts in public expenditure start to emerge.
Arguably, though, that would be the case whichever party holds power at Westminster.
John Swinney is scarcely holding back now from issuing complaints about the settlement forthcoming from the Labour-run Treasury.
As to choosing between other parties, I believe that Mr Salmond primarily views his rivals in terms of their adherence to the Union rather than their tilt to right or left.
That may exasperate his opponents - but the clue is in the title of his party. He is a Nationalist.
Still, might the prospect of a Tory government open up further such opportunities for the SNP?
Is Alex Salmond thereby salivating at the prospect of a Tory victory, as his Labour rivals suggest?
'Settled will'
Perhaps, to some extent. But think. Does that seriously mean that devolution only works if Labour are in power at the UK level? Does that mean that the "settled will" of the Scottish people, as expressed in the Scotland Act 1998, contains within it the seeds of the inevitable destruction of the UK?
Think again. There is no back-door route to independence. Alex Salmond may well seek to exploit, to some extent, the emergence of a UK Conservative government allied to the spending restraint which looks inevitable.
But, ultimately, he and others know that independence will only happen if and when the people of Scotland palpably and demonstrably vote for it.
I believe, in conclusion, that Alex Salmond would seek to sustain his underlying, relatively cautious strategy in the event of a Conservative victory - while, at the same time, condemning the Tories and all their works.
That is what happens when partisan politics and the exigencies of governance collide.
That is his version of the Goldie conundrum.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~21~RS~)
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Brian
It is a strategy set back in the 60s by Billy Wolfe. Show the Scots they can govern themselves and independence will come.
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Bella better behave herself or there will be no more Bones.
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A good bit of analysis Brian.
As the UK parties have become more Tweedledeedumier (now there's a term to match glenncambelly), they have no significant fault lines between them any more - no much how they protest.
“one of the first things I’d do is go to Scotland, have a meeting with the First Minister and talk about how we are going to govern Scotland with respect, talk about how we are going to keep the United Kingdom together.” Now that is really silly! It would be like Kruschev meeting with Kennedy to talk about how we are going to advance Socialism!
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It seems to me that Mr. Taylor left out mention of one rather large elephant--a referendum.
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Goldie's speech was brillant, perfect- hit all the correct notes.
However she could have gone further than saying she'd increase the numbers of tory MPs from Scotland- she should have promised 8. We can and will have 8 Scottish MPs, and one of them at least will come from Perth & North Perthshire or Angus...the SNP are running scared of Scottish tory revivalism...why else is Salmond so desperate to get into the leaders debate? "I'm still here mate!"....pathetic...weak weak weak.
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"...the emergency of a Tory government..."
ne'er a truer word spoken!
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#5 dean
Go take on someone your own size! The unLibunDems are suffering a meltdown, concentrate on Berwick so you'll at least still have one seat in Scotland after Mundell loses his to the backlash of people realising what Call-me-Dave really means for Scots.
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5. deanthetorythe SNP are running scared of Scottish tory revivalism...why else is Salmond so desperate to get into the leaders debate? "I'm still here mate!"....pathetic...weak weak weak.
Why else, Dean? Well perhaps because it's profoundly undemocratic for the political party with the highest share of the vote in Scotland to be denied the same high-profile platform as Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems would get in these proposed debates.
Scottish Tory revivalism?! Others may well beg to differ I'm afraid. Most of us remember the Tories last turn at holding the steering wheel.
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6. At 2:19pm on 05 Oct 2009, CuttingSarky
Your anti-tory phobia is indictative of fear over reason.
If you actually stopped and reasoned, you'd conclude the Conservatives are no bad thing for Scotland.
£60 millions for towncentre regeneration- no bad thing
Support for the council tax freeze- no bad thing
Successfully managed to negotiate a tax cut for small, vulnerable businesses in Scotland- no bad thing
Tell me, on what basis do you dismiss these [among many other] achievements as something to be afraid/hateful of? Don't you approve of the council tax freeze? Don't you want to see Scotlands' neglected towncentres regenerated? Or is that phobia denying you anything other than emotional instinct rather than calm, rational thought?
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The tories have little chance of even having one ,let alone a figure requiring two hands to count.
I watched MrMundell the other night and was duly unimpressed.
Delighted for Ms Goldie that she made a successful speech somewhere - these have been lacking in Holyrood.
I look forward to the "showing of respect" seems like a novel idea to me!
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7. At 2:31pm on 05 Oct 2009, handclapping
"Go take on someone your own size!"
You know your' right- it will not do for the tories to bully smaller pupils in Perthshire and Angus ;)
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Dean - why stop at 8? If you are going to fantasize, why not promise 128. Both are as likely. The conference is in Manchester, you haven't even got the excuse of the sea-air and its a bit early in the day for a young chap like you to be hitting the pina coladas.
Get a grip, you are coming over all giggly but without the in-depth musical knowledge.
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5. deanthetory
On a stylistic point. How could the speech have been "perfect" when you wanted her to "go further"?
Mind you, you wouldn't be the first guy to want the woman he adores to do that.
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#5 Dean... 8 Tory's in Scotland... Hahahaha... you've been on the Pimms again!
You'll be lucky to return the one you have.
Dream on brother!
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The BBC, ITV and BSkyB jointly propose three live debates between the leaders of Labour, Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.
There have been calls for the leader of the SNP, Alex Salmond to be included in the debates.
Should Alex Salmond be allowed to participate in these debates?
Click Here To Vote
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#5 the SNP are running scared of Scottish tory revivalism...why else is Salmond so desperate to get into the leaders debate? "I'm still here mate!"....pathetic...weak weak weak.
Dean, the thought of the SNP "running scared" at the thought of Tories in Scotland made me spit out my morning coffee laughing. Now I need to go get more coffee. But I needed the chuckle.
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Ms Goldie's attempts to label the desire for independence as "extreme" are disgraceful.
There is nothing extreme about a desire for independence. It is exactly what the vast majority of countries already have.
The SNP are working towards establishing the mainstream political status of Scotland.
There is nothing extreme about it and Ms Goldie's attempts to suggest that people like me, who simply wish for the independence for their country same as everyone else, are extreme is very insulting.
Interesting, meanwhile, to note the BBC's report on Norway as taking top spot in the best countries in the world to live in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8290550.stm
The UK doesn't even make it into the top 20. So much for the success of the union and Scotland's place in it.
Honestly, how much longer are we going to be fed this rubbish about Scotland being better off in the union? We have the worst poverty in western europe, for goodness sake.
And that's not going to change under the Tories but will, of course, increase.
I wonder what the Scottish members of the Labour party will do after the Tories have won the UK election.
Do they continue to support the union and, so, support the rule of the Tory party in Scotland? Or do they support independence and the right of the Scottish people to live under a government of their own choosing?
I really cannot see how Labour party members in Scotland can favour the rule of the Tories over the rule of a party of our own choosing in an independent Scotland.
Exactly where do their loyalities lie and with whom?
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dean
Your argument anent the broadcasts comes apart if the SNP put up a candidate in Penrith, Corby or English Berwick. A lost deposit is cheaper than a legal battle, though of course 59 lost deposits is nothing to Lord A. Did I say Lord A?, tut, of course I meant the Tory party.
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#13. At 2:38pm on 05 Oct 2009, oldnat wrote:
5. deanthetory
On a stylistic point. How could the speech have been "perfect" when you wanted her to "go further"?
Mind you, you wouldn't be the first guy to want the woman he adores to do that.
Oldnat, don't be disgusting! That's like wanting to make it with one's ruler-wielding First Grade teacher. *shudder*
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#5
Salmond is seeking to enter the leaders' debate because he is the leader of the most popular political party in Scotland.
Denying him the right to participate in this debate would be anti-democratic and certainly a violation of the rules of our democracy.
Ms Goldie is being ludicrous today with her SNP hate-speech. She tries to say that the SNP are irrelevant in the context of a British election.
What an incredible insult to the Scottish people telling them that the votes they give to their most popular political party are an irrelevance, that their opinions are an irrelevance, that their votes are an irrelevance.
That is a shocking insult to the Scots. But, then again, she is a Tory.
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14. At 2:39pm on 05 Oct 2009, BoNG0_1
"You'll be lucky to return the one you have."
Mundell is worried about doing a Teddy Taylor, he told me. I dont think he need worry however.
13. At 2:38pm on 05 Oct 2009, oldnat
Oldnat now isn't the time for someone like me to presume to criticise my glorious party leadership...however helpful criticism along the lines of "going further" is a more nuanced way of being critical during such a time.
12. At 2:38pm on 05 Oct 2009, Sgt_F
Pina Coladas? Nah, Pimms or Gin is more my cup of tea [does that even make sense?]
But for all you sceptics I shall name my list of most winnable Scottish seats [i'd previously posted it on UK polling]:
The most winnables are probably:[in order of likilhood]
1. Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale
2. Dumfries & Galloway
3. Stirling
—at this point I am entirely in agreement
4. East Renfrewshire
5. Edinburgh South
6. Argyll & Bute
7. Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk
—these seven I reckon we will win, many however with supermarginal leads [thinking mainly of 6&7]
But the ones I cant place for the life of me, in terms of winnability is Edin SW and West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine- a side of me suspects a win, but its the majorities are rather large, and various local issues count.
8. Perth & North Perthshire
9. Aberdeen South
10. Edin North & Leith
11. Angus (but there is an issue of the council)
12. Ayr Central (tall order, but the Euros indicator is positive
That is my [sober] thinking. Sadly I'm not at conference this year, but I did get someone to go that I know [so I will have stuff to talk about on my blog]
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@Dean
Your anti-tory phobia is indictative of fear over reason.
I am not afraid of being anti-tory
If you actually stopped and reasoned, you'd conclude the Conservatives are no bad thing for Scotland.
Its because of reason that I am anti-tory however you have a fair point a Tory govt will do wonders for Scotland by fostering a vote for Independence.
£60 millions for towncentre regeneration- blah blah blah - something to be afraid/hateful of?
same old same old - try something new I am afraid of some things but tory spin is not one of them, I also don't hate anyone I only feel pity for you and your ilk.
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Just a quick reference to the other blog, when Oldnat talk about his granny sucking eggs! I just wondered if he could teach his followers to suck a cactus.Emmmm!
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Is it a suprise that at the Conservative and Unionist conference, that the audience clapped on each point that Goldie made that supported Scotland remaining apart of the United Kingdom?
I feel the Conservatives are searching for the emotional argument for remaing apart of the United Kingdom. I want a clear picture of building a stronger Scotland, but I do not see that coming from the Conservatives. The Conservatives talk about a strong Scotland.. apart of the United Kingdom. It's like accepting our strength is defined by Great Britain's ability on the world stage.
I grew up under the impression that mankind can do anything, acheive anything. There was and remains nothing we can not do, so I will continue to protest against constituional settlements that talk about, "Scotland is stronger apart of the United Kingdom." because I do not accept that a nations strength is measured or amplified through a political 'solution'.
The Conservatives will have to come to grips with reality. The pro's certainly do not outweigh the con's of the Conservatives. The Conservatives do not deserve the Scottish publics vote, I would expect a strong reason before I accept that things will be better under the Conservatives. Thatcher... 30 years and we will have generations unemployed thank you her policies. The wounds of the nation have not healed and I do not accept things to change under Cameron.
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Excellent blog, Brian. The kind of balanced, analytical commentary that is all we ask of the BBC. Let's hope others follow your example and avoid the pit of glencambliness.
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DeanTheTory:
#21.
Consdering you admitt that most of the seats will be marginal, is it wise to provoke the nationalists?
Realistically, the Conservatives will be fighting on many fronts and once they manage to win the elections, the fight will only continue. You have defend the cuts while insisting your not returning to the Thatcher years and while ensuring the people of Scotland that there is more in it for you.
I have mentioned before that I see 8 Conservatives MP's returning to Scotland (at the most, which will be a breakthrough) but if the party can not build on that success then your nothing really then a hiccup in Scottish politics.
Your position is vunerable. Do not become a victim of overconfidence.
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2. Sgt_Furry
I new the "Bella's Bones" idea was going to catch on.
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Dean, pls stop spamming with your virtual GE campaign leaflets. I may have to go to the post office and get a re-direct on them.
Honestly, if you think that defending the disgraceful behaviour of annabel goldone will help your cause your are very very wrong. The mere mention of the big CONs is usually enough to stir a very unsettled feeling in everyone I know (yes everyone, and that's a lot!)but her liabelous slander towards scots lately can't be hidden behind anything and egnites the most serious of scowls.
Wee will soon see how scots take to being insulted in such an under handed way.
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#21 dean
Now you are being sensible, optimistic but sensible. You could get the 2 Dumfrieses, Berwick, Edinburgh SW and, by the skin of your teeth E Renfrew. Apply to Lord A on that basis and if you can show you've 100 activists in each, no that's a bit hard, 500 activists in Scotland and you'll get lots and lots of lovely lolly.
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5. deanthetory
"We can and will have 8 Scottish MPs"
Did "Cammie" tell you that?
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#25 Electric Hermit
What an excellent question that would make for Brian to ask the First Minister. "First Minister, do you believe that the BBC in Scotland has come over all glencampbelly?"
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9. deanthetory
"If you actually stopped and reasoned, you'd conclude the Conservatives are no bad thing for Scotland.
"
You're right! We need a butt for our jokes. And your partners in the British Labour Party (North Britain branch) have long since ceased to be funny.
Although the pantomime horse (Gray/Foulkes) can still do a turn.
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20. GloaminInTheRoman
"Ms Goldie is being ludicrous today with her SNP hate-speech. She tries to say that the SNP are irrelevant in the context of a British election.
What an incredible insult to the Scottish people telling them that the votes they give to their most popular political party are an irrelevance, that their opinions are an irrelevance, that their votes are an irrelevance."
She is only echoing the sentiments of the British Labour Party. Sad to say, Auntie Bella gave up thinking for herself when she threw in her lot with Gray's gang.
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21. deanthetory
"Pina Coladas? Nah, Pimms or Gin is more my cup of tea [does that even make sense?]"
Don't worry. Your clean record on that score is still intact.
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And just what exactly is sooooooo bad and evil about scotland and its people that wanting independence for it/us is narrow and extreme!?
What an idiot, she knows how to get the opposition to get their gloves on. But I bet you won't see the nationalist party sinking to the sewers like unionism.
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#29. I do so remember my first real political campaign as an adult in which I was convinced (because we were right, of course) that the electorate would see the error of their ways and vote my presidential candidate into office. Ah, the optimism of the young. ;-)
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Brian
What is the BBC's political editorial view of the name of one of their senior reporters becoming a neologism for over-the-top biased ranting? It surely cannot be to the BBC's advantage that it escapes from this blog such that it has to be treated as a fully fledged neologism and not as a protologism. How will it look in the dictionaries that the name of a reporter for this model of a public service balanced broadcaster became the basis for such an indictment of bias. Poor old Lord Reith.
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20-25 yrs ago the big CONs were being described in no more flatering way then the BNP is today.
You can't disguise the state of your knickers by putting on a fur coat.
And by the way Brian Taylor,
"The mustered representatives cheered as the Scottish Tory leader added, for emphasis: "Absolutely not. No way." (To get the effect, try reading that line aloud in Annabel's distinctive tones. Go on, nobody's watching.)"
Sorry, I have no desire to full my mouth with soor plums.
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When I was 18 I was a complete idiot, as opposed to now where I am only a total one, I voted tory!!! There you go, its out of my system.
The price they paid for the sheer lies and contempt they mongered to us then is my utter contempt now. It is justified. How was I to know that nationalism was being smothered and labelled evil by the very people treating scotland as their back garden. I was just a giggly spotty gimp of a teenager high on the power of the right to vote. ;)!!! Git that I was. Then labour did the same. They've had hundreds of years of 2nd chances, they'll get no more from me and anyone else I talk to with half a brain.
I worked for the forestry commision at the time I voted tory, and I jest not when I say that the foreman had to recieve emergency treatment for scallding due to pouring a kettle of water over himself when I told him my intentions. Brilliant, you can't buy the equivelent.
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Anyone else find the following comment in the BBC's report on Norway being the best place to live amusing/sad:
"Norway's consistently high rating for desirable living standards, is, in large part, the result of the discovery of offshore oil and gas deposits in the late 1960s. "
I would however amend that statement to: "...the discovery and use of offshore...."
I did notice that the top three (2007) were small (population wise) countries (Norway, Australia and Iceland). So I guess that will kill the argument about being too small to govern ourselves.
The UK is of course in 21st place (I would be curious to find out where Scotland would rank if listed as a seperate entity, as I suspect that our average life expectancy is less than the UK average). What a great Union dividend.
John
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Didn't see tarnished goldie's speech - is there a transcript up anywhere yet?
Did she mention water privatisation? or is the 'p' word stealthy till after the election?
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I'm afraid I just can't Bella seriously because her judgement is seriously flawed. There is no "successful and strong relationship with the rest of Britain".
The relation is a forced one and the success has been on the part of UK Treasury who have removed and piddled down the drain the oil revenues and hence denied Scotland the potential of being a popular, pleasant and industrially and financially successful as Norway.
She should hang her head in shame.
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Dean, a FYI.
I can understand tory policies, and know where they come from. I disagree with some of them, but in a parallel universe may have ended up a tory (although probably a very wet one) if I had not seen some of the things that I have (and my country was already independant).
In this universe, I am afraid that I have witnessed a certain "lady's" destruction of the moral, industrial and civic fibre of the country I love. This has shone a bright light on the downside of the tory idealology. For that reason, I may have some sympathies with certain tory policies, but I could and would never support the tories as a party. I suspect that many Scots of my generation have similar views. It might explain why your boundless enthusiasm for all things conservative falls on deaf ears so often.
John
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
40. John__
"The UK is of course in 21st place (I would be curious to find out where Scotland would rank if listed as a seperate entity, as I suspect that our average life expectancy is less than the UK average). What a great Union dividend."
Human Development Report 2009
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I know this is a novel manner to address the question posed of whether Annabel 'Nay' Goldie or Alex 'Aye' Salmond is correct in there approach regards Scottish independence but what about asking the people? Politicians, of late, have the tone of follow me rather then I'm listening, interestingly so when they serve to represent not rule. Wouldn't it be great it the people of Scotland decided their destiny rather then passing such responsibilities to those that would rather rally support than listen?
Steven J. Sexton
LPUK Scotland Party Secretary
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Ms Goldie has to travel to another country to make a speech to her national party, as did Mr Gray, Mr Brown and Mr Scott.
When the tories are in power and Michael Forsyth is directing policy from the Lords, who will protect Scotland?
Only one party, let's see, the party that does not need to travel to another country to hold its annual conference!
D McN
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Good blog, Brian with a scattering of humour. I suspect that you are right and AS will continue with this winnable formula as the Unionists don't seem to have an answer to it. However, there is a long way to go to the GE and plenty of time and scope for underhand political techniques to look forward to. Interesting times ahead.
Just to add to the debate on whether AS should join the debate. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't AS only wanting to appear on broadcasts that are shown in Scotland and accepts that the '3 amigos' have their private viewing in England? If this is what he wants then I don't see what Dean is arguing against.
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DeanTheTory
It is clear that in your sycophantic appraisal of Goldies speech that you are a bit fired up and ready for inaction. ;)
You seem to be feeling lucky (‘punk’) and in all this excitement you are predicting a 6 or 7 seat win for the tories Client Eastwood style. Setting yourself up for a fall, methinks.
Take Argyll and Bute. What makes you think there will be a tory win? This is something you have predicted for a while. Is this just some kind of poll sample and stats juggling, hoping, and extrapolation? Do you have any real idea of peoples opinions and the political landscape in this area? Who is going to switch to vote tory? Some insight please (when you have came back down to Earth).
Eg. Much of the former tory vote was from farmers. I know for a fact that some local SNP candidates are from the farming community and so have attracted many such voters. Then there are farming issues such as the FootAndMouth outbreak that the UK government did not want to compensate Scottish farmers for. Etc.
As for the Tory ‘message’ to Scotland it appears to be:
-British Nationalism, its the right size, the good nationalism.
-Scottish Nationalism, bad, extreme even, too small, too narrow.
-Debate with us on UK issues effecting Scotland as long as the SNP has no voice.
-We will respect Scotland.
Dean – When will the respecting actually begin?
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5. deanthetory
"Goldie's speech was brillant, perfect- hit all the correct notes."
That would be "B flat" then in Scotland.
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But back to that conundrum. Alongside this rhetoric, Miss Goldie stated: "If he is elected, David Cameron has pledged a relationship of mutual respect between our British and Scottish Governments."
What's that? Respect for the wrecker, for the would-be destroyer of Britain? Respect for a Scottish government run by a party whose views on the constitution are "extreme" and "narrow"?
Brian, are you feeling well?
David Cameron is just a month past his soundbite sniping at the SNP's handling of the Lockerbie Bomber release and now the BEEB are ready to take him at his word that he won't stick his oar into Scotland's devolved business again?
Ask the hard questions Brian, for pity's sake.
Annabel Goldie is a fine politician and the only current opposition leader at holyrood I have any respect for. She ruins it a little bit when she snipes at eck's weight and the personal nuances of others that should be left for those without a keen wit.
The Tories will have thier day in England, but never in Scotland - not inside the UK anyway.
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#47
Good point there, Donald.
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Online Ed Here
What's that? Respect for the wrecker, for the would-be destroyer of Britain? Respect for a Scottish government run by a party whose views on the constitution are "extreme" and "narrow"?
At last, a nod from Taylor regarding the very real extreme language being adopted by Unionist politicians these days.
Transcript of Goldies speech
Note the well worn line at the end that a vote for the Liberal Democrats (eh?) or the SNP will keep Labour in power. Is Goldie suggesting that Scotland will somehow act as a counter to the humiliation Labour are about to suffer in England? - maybe she believes 'honest' Jim Murphy's claim about Scotland beig the most influential wee country in the world.
So influential that we will be lumbered with a Tory government no matter what we do.
As an aside:
I overheard a couple of non political colleagues talking today, the leaders debate was the subject.
On Salmond:
The gist was that they saw him as complaining, cue mock voices of some pathetic soul begging to be let into the debate.
On Brown:
Why did he agree to it? Every time I hear his voice I just want to go to sleep. Discussion then turns to Brown's lack of charisma/charm - the gist was that the more they see of him the more irritated they become.
My Conclusion:
Whatever happens, the debate will do Brown no favours - the BBC's tactic of presenting the SNP as complainers threatening to gatecrash a party to which they have no invite seems to be working.
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49. EphemeralDeceptionAs for the Tory ‘message’ to Scotland it appears to be:
-British Nationalism, its the right size, the good nationalism.
-Scottish Nationalism, bad, extreme even, too small, too narrow.
-Debate with us on UK issues effecting Scotland as long as the SNP has no voice.
-We will respect Scotland.
From the grumblings at the Tory conference I suspect we might get a quick taste of the expansive, inclusive British nationalism of the Tories...namely a hasty retreat from all things European. Still, won't it be nice when Dave makes the decision to take us out of Europe with "respect" (regardless of Scotland's opinion on the matter).
PS I see Brian is soliciting (wait for it!) questions for Alex Salmond. A copy of Arithmetic for Dummies is in the post Brian ;o)
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Interesting. I'm not quite sure what to make of this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6861871.ece
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Bella Donna may have enjoyed her *15 minutes of fame (or how many minutes it took) preaching to the converted. It may also have pleased others of her ilk in the hall to hear an almost endless string of soundbites masquerading as a speech vilifying Alex Salmond and the SNP, but some kind soul should have told Ms. Goldie she was in Manchester not Morningside.
*15 minutes of fame (or famous for 15 minutes) is an expression which refers to the fleeting condition of celebrity that grabs into an object of media attention, then passes to some new object as soon as people's attention spans are exhausted.
Wikipedia
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45. cynicalHighlander
1. Norway
3. Iceland
5. Ireland
6. Netherlands
7. Sweden
Arc of human development?
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46. wormitSteve
I'd have thought the Libertarians would have noticed that those supporting Independence do want to ask the people.
However since your manifesto is entirely English in the constitutional section of its manifesto
http://lpuk.org/pages/manifesto/constitutional.php
I'm not sure you are of any relevance in what you claim to be a "UK party".
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50. cynicalHighlander5. deanthetory
"Goldie's speech was brillant, perfect- hit all the correct notes."
That would be "B flat" then in Scotland.
And definitely not "C sharp" :o)
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I voted for the SNP in the last two elections, not that I'm desperate for independence, but I trust Salmond a bit more than the members of the Scottish Labour mafia. However some of the anti Tory hatred being blogged here makes me think the SNP is in danger of becoming populated with the worst of Labours disgruntled supporters. Disillusioned with their own party and now keen to vent their vitriol on behalf of the SNP in the hope that their abuse will help Labour's position by discrediting the Tories.
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55. JRMacClure
I think it means. "We've spent all your money. We've spent all our money. Our credit cards are maxed out, and we've done the same with your cards."
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Again my posting has been moderated because of the use of a parliamentary phrase Economical with the truth. If this is acceptable in parliament why is it not accepted by the mods?
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The Conundrum is what will the Scottish Labour voters do come the GE? There is quite some time before then however if it seems certain the Tories will win will Scottish Labour voters defect to the SNP? They will take one of three routes: -
1. Carry on voting Labour regardless.
2. Switch to the SNP.
3. Stay at home.
A combination of 2&3 will be a disaster for Labour.
Freedom
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Norway - 1st
Scotland - Nowhere.
How does that happen?
Freedom
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59. forfar-loon
"50. cynicalHighlander5. deanthetory
"Goldie's speech was brillant, perfect- hit all the correct notes."
That would be "B flat" then in Scotland.
And definitely not "C sharp" :o)"
No middle "C" either.
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60. kaybraes
Labour never
Conservative/Indepent one or twice for my past sins.
Lib Dems who?
SNP since the late sixties. Perseverance.
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60. kaybraes
"However some of the anti Tory hatred being blogged here"
A bit over the top comment, I think.
Independence supporters will happily attack all parties which want to restrict our links with our neighbours, to only 3 of the neighbours instead of all 30 in the street.
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#55 JRMacClure
"I'm not quite sure what to make of this:"
Cameron's definition of respect, perhaps?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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53. U14094468
Thanks for the link to the transcript (doh!).
"Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP – the cosy coalition of the left"
A highlight of Tarnished Goldie's kind of sleekit misrepresentation of the politics of Scotland and its cosy coalition of the Unionists.
She actually said that it is the Conservatives who are touch with the people of Scotland!!! Tarnished Goldie needs to get in touch with reality first.
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#61. At 6:47pm on 05 Oct 2009, oldnat wrote:
55. JRMacClure
I think it means. "We've spent all your money. We've spent all our money. Our credit cards are maxed out, and we've done the same with your cards."
Thanks for the translation. On rereading it, I think you may be off on the last bit. I really think that should be: "We put your house down as collateral so no one would give you credit anyway."
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#5 #9
Dean's continuous forays into cloud cuckoo land is becoming a tad tiresome - as is his continuing attempts to claim good things the SNP has done as Tory triumphs.
That the Tories support SNP good ideas is wholly admirable.
That these good ideas were in the main in the SNP manifesto long before the Tories supported them is also true.
But that the Tories did none of these things when they were last in power is undoubtedlty also the case.
We got instead the poll tax and the wilful destruction of what was left of Scotland's industrial base - and how we need it now.
The Tories may gain a seat or two at the next election in Scotland. They wont gain any from the SNP on all present polling figures which universally show significantly increased SNP advantages in the seats the SNP holds.
The first rule about political propaganda is that to be effective it has to be at least as little credible.
Keep that in mind, dean
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BT
"I expect that, duly chastened, Mr Salmond is already preparing to shelve the essential objective which his party has sought since its foundation seventy five years ago"
Surprised no-one has commented about this yet, Is there something I have missed here?
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Good indepth analysis but as JRMcclure said why no mention of the referendum???? A yes vote renders Cameron void and Goldie barely any stronger.
Onwards to independence. It's the only sensible answer to the nightmare of Tory and Cameron diktat.
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60. kaybraes
Where? What?
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Brian - were there any jokes about the "National Conversation" or is the rumoured "Consultation about Europe/Lisbon Treaty" a bit too similar (and some might say a waste of money for a hard up country[which!] ? Referendum on Lisbon or Home Rule ditto?
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70. JRMacClure
LOL!
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#17 Roman asked “I wonder what the Scottish members of the Labour party will do after the Tories have won the UK election.
Do they continue to support the union and, so, support the rule of the Tory party in Scotland?"
Yes – think back to the feeble 50 Labour MP’s of the late 1980’s – provided little or no leadership to the people of Scotland. Mind you they did whine a bit about the poll tax and how you should pay it!
“Or do they support independence and the right of the Scottish people to live under a government of their own choosing?”
No, no and no again – never – they are Unionists wedded to Westmidden and would rather no one tried to mitigate the tory policies in order to benefit from them afterwards by claiming only they could protect Scotland. Believe it, as that what’s started in the press already.
# 747 previous blog X_Sticks yes Auntie Bella (notice the cozy adoption of the word Auntie? A bit like Uncle as in Uncle Joe Stalin) would get me on the streets too if she started to agitate for our water to be privatized.
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72. fasteagle100
I suspect that most, like me, appreciated Brian's ironic style.
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Huh. Interesting coverage of Ms. Goldie's speech in the Telegraph.
The headline is: Tory general election victory would safeguard the Union, says Annabel Goldie
Followed by the subhead: A Conservative victory at the general election would help save the Union from the separatist “threat” posed by Alex Salmond, the party’s Scottish leader has claimed.
I particularly noted the word threat being in quotes and the "has claimed".
The article ended with this:
Nicola Sturgeon, SNP deputy leader, said: “Annabel Goldie’s opposition to a referendum is just as illogical and anti-democratic as that of Labour and the Lib Dems.
“Within minutes of Annabel Goldie rejecting the right of the people of Scotland to choose independence, (Shadow Foreign Secretary) William Hague was extolling the virtues of a European referendum on the powers of Westminster.”
I was amused at their comment that Mr. Cameron wasn't likely to win a "majority" of MPs from Scotland--good for a chuckle.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6263004/Tory-general-election-victory-would-safeguard-the-Union-says-Annabel-Goldie.html
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55. JRMacClure
deanthetory's Cammie Dave (get it?) puts the the kaibosh on anything like advancing Scotland's autonomy, and he's not even in power yet.
So, for Scotland under the tories - sell off our water, protect whistleblowing (but only in the NHS, not just in the hope it'll give them ammo to start unpicking it - nosirree!), and support new businesses (via some vague thresholded scheme to give money to councils after the fact) - it's about as deep and visionary as £60 million for toon centres.
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I have just checked the up to date positions in Angus and Perth and Kinross in light of the most up to date polls and in both seats the SNP is presntly estimated to have greatly increased its vote potentially attracting 45% of the vote to the Tories 30%.
This is a 50% SNP advantage over the Tories. I would imagine that the situation is perhaps actually better than that as around zero of the collapsing Labour vote will go to the Tories (who may however pick up disaffected LibDems)while a considerable proportion of it will vote SNP.
It might of course be a different picure next Spring but this is now.
I am startled by the evidence on show at the moment that there is a real possibilty that some elements in the looney wing of the Tory party will loose them an election it is almost impossible to lose.
Signalling you are determined to slash benefits just as hundreds of thousands of decent working class people lose their jobs. Inspired stuff that. Labour doesn't need Lord Mandy. The Tories are doing it to themselves.
And as for Europe.......the mind boggles.
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71. sneckedagain
"Dean's continuous forays into cloud cuckoo land is becoming a tad tiresome - as is his continuing attempts to claim good things the SNP has done as Tory triumphs."
He's just following Tarnished Goldie's lead ;)
She does the same kind of switcheroo in her speech. Keep saying it enough and all that...
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"Cammie"? That sounds like a brand of soap.
Quite appropriate really.
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If there is one thing I have learned in reading these (healthy) comments, it is the use and meaning of the word 'anent'. My thanks to handclapping #18
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37. At 4:16pm on 05 Oct 2009, handclapping wrote:
Brian
What is the BBC's political editorial view of the name of one of their senior reporters becoming a neologism for over-the-top biased ranting? It surely cannot be to the BBC's advantage that it escapes from this blog such that it has to be treated as a fully fledged neologism and not as a protologism. How will it look in the dictionaries that the name of a reporter for this model of a public service balanced broadcaster became the basis for such an indictment of bias. Poor old Lord Reith.
Handclapping : I think glencamblism is here to stay because it is apt. The BBC Trust have had years of well-founded complaints regarding unfettered biased in their reports (glencampbly reporting is less letters and connotes so much more). The BBC Trust chose to do nothing, this is proving a very foolish decision.
The success of glencampbly is revealed by today's report which is much,much less glencampbly than usual. Well done Brian.
I see Dave Cameron has said he'd respect Scotland and supported his new found respect by denying that the SNP are a major political party. He is relying on the usual glencampbly reporting - Let's hope his reliance is misplaced.
I would be interested in Brian's view of glencampbly.
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#72. Ah Mr. Taylor's little spark of irony. It was worth a smile.
Howsoever, it would have been more amusing if he'd mentioned the irony of all of the hooptedoodle about a referendum on the EU while Ms. Goldie is scolding her follow Scots that a referendum on independence is 'narrow', 'extreme'.
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dean, i think you will get maybe up to 6 maximum. but to be honest probably 3.
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It would appear Lady Scotland is getting away with it, and I don't mean Auntie Bella.
Just to be clear it must be her maid who was lying and the lack of reporting is to protect the maid from further scrutiny. There couldn't possibly be an alternative explanation - Could there ?
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An alternative view of Goldie's speech from Jeff Breslin.
http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2009/10/goldies-land-of-hope-and-optimism.html
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Ah, Europe....
IMHO. CMD is best keeping his gob shut. Doesn't matter about his "behind the scenes influence" with The Poles and Czechs.
Let them go ahead with The Lisbon Treaty, appoint Bliar as "President of Europe" just in time for a nice six-month run up to polling day and Robert est votre oncle, the demand for a withdrawal referendum can be easily made a cornerstone of the Tory manifesto.
CMD Stomps to office with a 200 seat Majority, Eck becomes leader of the Main Opposition Party without having a seat in the UK parliament and Scotland becomes so scunnered with Forsyth Lording it over us from Dover House that Independence follows by 2011.
Having said that, not sure if I'd want our Republic to be part of a Europe under an unelected head of state. Especially TB.....
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84. bmc875
"If there is one thing I have learned in reading these (healthy) comments, it is the use and meaning of the word 'anent'. My thanks to handclapping #18"
Anent the comments ;)
Do you mean the comments here are healthy in your opinion, or that you managed to find some healthy ones amongst the rest?
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#88. At 7:56pm on 05 Oct 2009, astonishedII wrote:
It would appear Lady Scotland is getting away with it, and I don't mean Auntie Bella.
Just to be clear it must be her maid who was lying and the lack of reporting is to protect the maid from further scrutiny. There couldn't possibly be an alternative explanation - Could there ?
Of course there couldn't be an alternative explanation! And Electric Hermit assures me that I'm a conspiracist for suggesting otherwise. He MUST me right. ;-)
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Well, it was early but I laid my money down on Ladbrokes as the odds did not look like they were going to get better for my wagers. (Or am I allowed to mention that here?)
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#79 JRMacClure
Thanks for the Torygraph link, very similar to the Thunderer's review, and only in their "Scotland" section of course to avoid alarming their core vote in the English shires, with the repeated mantra of "respect".
Also in the Torygraph is Alan Cochrane's Let Alex Salmond debate SNP policies with the Big Three - and let us all watch which for that "gentleman" is at least a step in the right direction.
Few here will agree with his: "Sunlight might just be the best disinfectant for some of the SNP’s more laughable policies, writes Alan Cochrane."
But his "the powers-that-be might well uphold Mr Salmond’s claim of right to be included in any televised face-off between Gordon Brown, David Cameron and Nick Clegg" is at least realistic, as is his "a contest where the First Minister stands a better chance of getting a hiding — better at least than if he is reduced to battling it out with the second division players from Scottish domestic politics". The latter is undoubtedly true, even though most of us here will suspect Cochrane of not removing his red, white and blue sunspecs in predicting the winner.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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PS to my #94
One of the comments on the Cochrane article puts my own view better than I could have done myself:
"Even it's for his usual odd reasons at least Cochrane is supporting the right position for once! Any UK debate which excludes the SNP will prove that we are in an unequal union where Scotland's viewpoint can be entirely ignored."
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Online Ed Here
Anyone wishing to see the results thus far of the Newsnet Scotland 'Alex Salmond Leaders Debate' poll simply click here.
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Brian - 'The Goldie Conundrum' - what a coincidence in a week when I suggested the Murphy Conundrum on this very blog.
That's me just about equal with my mate Old Tam who swears he christened FMQs 'The Alex Salmond Show' back in the days when The Herald allowed free comment.
If you want a title for another piece can I suggest:
New Labour or Old Tory, Proven Failure and Potential Disaster.
You'll hear a lot about that next week and I just can't get that idea out of my head. But that's the lesson of the last 30 years and I learned it well.
Nice to know you read all our rants anyway.
Online-Ed - your co-workers' comments - do you work at Glasgow City Council or maybe Ibrox or something ?
Dean. Dean. Dear Old Dean. You always seem such a nice reasonable chap, as most one-nation tories are. Just like my late Grandad.
But it's not the 1950s anymore and I'm going to re-appraise my view if you keep up this ill-founded steam powered rage against the FM appearing in debates.
Despite what Murph and Bella say, we are not electing a PM. We are electing a multi-party House of Commons which will them [notionally] choose a PM.
If it's just for PM candidates, what is Clegg doing there ? My goodness, what is Brown doing there ?
Nope, Dave is just plain scared of Eck. We anaoraks all know that Salmond would monster each and every one of those guys.
If you fancy being PM of what's left of the once mighty British Empire then you gotta face Eck.
Perhaps you are really just like all the other tories, determined to strip this little country of what's left of its identity, dignity and resources.
Well I got news for you, that ain't gonna be allowed to happen.
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They keep banging on about how we're in the teeth of a recession - caused by? - and 'good old' Boris is on stage espousing light regulation as the solution. Love it.
"It is only if we have sensible taxes and light regulation and sensible employment law that businesses will be able to pay the taxes for the things we need to do."
That was the thinking that got us where we are now.
That's London calling.
The 'city' is the agenda of the tory party.
Is there any limit to the number of times the sheeple will bend over for the interests of big business?
Baa!
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57. oldnat
"45. cynicalHighlander
1. Norway
3. Iceland
5. Ireland
6. Netherlands
7. Sweden
Arc of human development?"
Strange that! I wonder why Scotland isn't there maybe if I go to Uni I might be more educated and capable of evaluating the anomaly. Finger in mouth moment, eureaka independence no need for that PHD now.
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Anyone seen the Populus poll that this article refers to?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6862325.ece
Sorry if someone has posted on it before, but I don't see anything on it.
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#49
Argyll and Bute? A Tory gain?
Not the faintest chance and no serious contibutor would suggest it.
As I said to Dean already for propaganda (or spin) to be effective it must at least be a little credible to start with.
Apart from an uninspiring Tory candidate the Tories in Argyll face the fact that there is and has always been a very large anti-Tory majority in Argyll and Bute. On a few occasions in the past the Tories have sneaked through the middle and nicked Argyll and Bute when the SNP and the Liberals (or Lib Dems) have polled almost equally but the SNP is firmly in the lead now ahead of a tumbling LibDem vote with the Tories in a poor third place. It is conceivable that the Tories will slip into second place but only by virtue of a further drop in LibDem support and not by any increase in actual support. Labour will be lucky to get 2000 in the constituency.
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No meaningful data for Scotland, of course, but some interesting Q&A in tonight's YouGov daily poll, including the beginnings of "clear red water" between Duff Gordon and his possible replacement as NuLab's leader. The UK headline (Duff Gordon stays) figures are: Con 40%, Lab 27%, L-D 20%
However, with different leaders NuLab might have a marginally better chance of avoiding meltdown. The Tory leads with different leaders are:
6% Straw
8% Johnson
9% Miliband Major
13% Duff Gordon
13% Harman
14% Miliband Minor
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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53. U14094468
"At last, a nod from Taylor regarding the very real extreme language being adopted by Unionist politicians these days."
You pulled me up short with this. I was not taking Goldie's little diatribe seriously. But you rightly point out that this is the voice of extremism. I Alex Salmond had referred to his political adversaries in such terms he would, quite rightly, have been pilloried. Why should Goldie or her pals in the British Labour Party be exempt?
I was prepared to dismiss Goldie as an amusing irrelevance. That is wrong. She has put herself and her party beyond the pale. She contaminates Scottish politics with her message of hate.
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Online Ed Here
Some of you may recall that this time last year around the time of the Glenrothes by-election 'Global' was basking in his new found fame as 'saviour' of the globe.
If only Labour could re-produce something similar as we approach the Glasgow North East by-election.
Well, turns out that the cavalry might just be about to resurrect the good ole 'Global' factor. BBC Radio Scotland this evening were plugging a series of programmes centred around the collapse of the global banking industry.
The plugs featured ole 'Global' himself pontificating back then about the need to 'save the world' (I paraphrase). 'Globals' soundbite was broadcast amidst a torrent of bankers and financiers apologising for their role in the fiasco.
The BBC's excuse for such a series of programmes? Well, it apparently happened about a year ago, that's it. One would think that it would be better to wait until we have definitive proof that all is well before embarking on such a series.
Anyway, let's see just how in depth the series will be. Will it cover 'Globals' eagerness to embrace those of a cavalier bent?, his reluctance to regulate or even his meetings with the head of Lloyds prior to the BOS takeover.
Can we expect interviews with the usual suspects explaining how 'Global' saved the planet and how Westminster 'saved' Scotland's banks?
Of course we can, maybe even just prior to going to the polls in Glasgow North East - but then again, I am cynical.
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60. kaybraes
"However some of the anti Tory hatred..."
A strange way of referring to criticism of the Tories' hate-speak against alex Salmond/SNP as spewed by the poisonous Annabel Goldie.
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24. At 3:09pm on 05 Oct 2009, Thomas_Porter wrote:
"Is it a suprise that at the Conservative and Unionist conference, that the audience clapped on each point that Goldie made that supported Scotland remaining apart of the United Kingdom?"
It really shouldn't be all that suprising, your right Thomas. The clue is in the working title for up here "Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party".
A point well made Thomas.
80. At 7:44pm on 05 Oct 2009, mrbfaethedee
"deanthetory's Cammie Dave (get it?) puts the the kaibosh on anything like advancing Scotland's autonomy, and he's not even in power yet."
Cameron has not said anything about the devolutionary settlement yet [and I do mean has said nothing].
I remain convinced that he will propose further devolution as a means to offset the potential damage done north of the border by downsizing the yearly grant. Fiscal autonomy must eventually happen- may as well launch it ourselves Cameron!
101. At 9:48pm on 05 Oct 2009, sneckedagain
"Not the faintest chance and no serious contibutor would suggest it."
Plenty of "serious" people seem to be predicting it over on UK Polling Report. Or are all of them nutters just because you disagree with their analysis?
I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that thanks to an anti-tory majority present that this will prevent the tories sneaking through the middle.
I put it to you and everyone else [in the friendliest of terms] that the anti-tory factor is as good as dead in Scotland today.
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Auntie Bella “We are in the midst of a major recession, people are losing their jobs, the public finances are in a terrible state ...
and you want to make it worse by wrenching Scotland out of ...
a successful and strong relationship with the rest of Britain.”
Anyone want to comment on the dichotomy between the first and third parts of this statement?
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65. cynicalHighlander
"And definitely not "C sharp" :o)"
No middle "C" either."
I'm biting my tongue. I'm biting it!
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#104. Tsk. Ed, you're sounding remarkably like a conspiracist. We'll have to get out the straightjacket any time now. ;-)
Would BBC possibly conspire with Labour to save an election or a tainted politician? Now please.
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68. Brownedov
"Cameron's definition of respect, perhaps?"
Call him "Cammie". He likes that.
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#100 JRMacClure
Populus are usually fairly slow in putting up full data, but it should be there in a day or two. UK Polling Report are usually a good bet to see if the full data is available, but they currently show no more detail than the Thunderer.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#104 U140
At Glenrothes there was the hope that it might be true. The man had been Chancellor for 10 years and life was not bad.
Now we know he was a busted flush and we know life is going to get a lot worse. I don't think it'll work. No, Glenrothes was down to the care charges and an excess of Wee Eck in the constituency instead of First Ministering.
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#110 EH
Am I the only one old enough to remember cammie knickers? Dangerous for the inexperienced as I was then.
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72. fasteagle100
"Surprised no-one has commented about this yet, Is there something I have missed here?"
The irony?
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DeanTheTory:
#106.
"Cameron has not said anything about the devolutionary settlement yet [and I do mean has said nothing]."
David Cameron has ruled out borrowing powers for the Scottish Parliament.
"I remain convinced that he will propose further devolution as a means to offset the potential damage done north of the border by downsizing the yearly grant. Fiscal autonomy must eventually happen- may as well launch it ourselves Cameron!"
I do not see the Conservatives allowing Scotland control of the oil reserves. The British Government would be at the mercy of Scottish taxation...
"I put it to you and everyone else [in the friendliest of terms] that the anti-tory factor is as good as dead in Scotland today."
I disagree. First of all it's been thirty years since Thatcher.. I expect many of the generation that lived through her rule remembers those years well. I also expect that the Tory cuts to come will either reinforce the hostile opinions of those who have them or give a bad first impression and perhaps prove many people right since maybe discussions about a possible Tory Government will be occuring.
It's why I reminded you that you must build on your success. You have an uphill battle with the British National Party, Labour, Scottish National Party, United Kingdom Independence Party and the Liberal Democrats...
You have so many fronts. You can't possibly create policies that can reach out to all of the above (and more) and I would be suprised if the Conservatives can successfully build on their success. Difficult times ahead... (for you)
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106. deanthetory
"Cameron has not said anything about the devolutionary settlement yet [and I do mean has said nothing].
I remain convinced that he will propose further devolution as a means to offset the potential damage done north of the border by downsizing the yearly grant. Fiscal autonomy must eventually happen- may as well launch it ourselves Cameron!"
from the times online, referring to a radio interview the day before -
"The Tory leader said he believed that a government led by him would have to concentrate on reducing the UK deficit and not risk expanding that deficit by giving borrowing powers to Holyrood."
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92. JRMacClure
"Of course there couldn't be an alternative explanation!"
Evidence, little one. Evidence or persuasive argument. Your inane conspiracy theories lack both. And if that didn't sink them, your stubborn ignorance of the facts certainly would.
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Independence is normality and while the Conservatives wave the Union Jack they will remain irrelevant to Scotland. Like the Lib Dems I suspect there are a few within their number who think of theirselves as more Scottish than British, but they don't have the guts to come out and say it! Still it leaves people with a clear choice between Scotland's party and the rest and in that contest there can only be one winner!
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106. deanthetory
"I put it to you and everyone else [in the friendliest of terms] that the anti-tory factor is as good as dead in Scotland today."
On what basis, deanthetory? I understand you are keen for the to be the case, but at the moment you have some polls that say you're going to do better than 1, and the hightened state of 'go mode' from your conference and (likely) imminent UK GE victory.
I think the scots tories should have persisted with their careful rehabilitation act, but you didn't and you've shot your bolt now - nothing coming out of the conference sounds unlike the tories we already know.
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177. Of course, the fact of the discovered passport which doesn't support the Baroness's claims and the housekeeper's testimony doesn't count. Because you say it doesn't.
Gosh and funny how they are "my inane theories" and I'm not the only one to mention them. But being female and American (double whammy there) of course they are silly and inane. Tsk.
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41. At 4:45pm on 05 Oct 2009, mrbfaethedee wrote:
Didn't see tarnished goldie's speech - is there a transcript up anywhere yet?
Did she mention water privatisation? or is the 'p' word stealthy till after the election?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
mrb, you've probably seen this already, but worth repeating from Bella's rantings...
"Taking Scottish Water out of state ownership alone would save £150 million a year. That’s a responsible Conservative policy"
Conservatives still trying to sell off the family silver! (what's left of it following thatcher/blair/brown profit making schemes)
Makes my blood boil, and if they, any of them, attempt this I for one will be marching down to Holyrood to have my say on the matter.
The sooner we are free of these kind of people the better.
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Well dean I have just been listening to Thatcher,s reincarnation in Scotland speaking for Scotland please tell her she does not speak for me or an awful lot of others in Scotland. By the way how is she planning to spend that £60million on town centre regeneration when the latest synopsis is that the retail sector is going to be hit even harder over the coming months than they were last year, or is it going to go down the drain the same as Mandy's car scrappage scheme. Totally wasted political posturing at tax payers expense to buy votes.
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106. deanthetory
"Or are all of them nutters just because you disagree with their analysis?"
There may be other reasons.
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The Tory membership seem determined to have a retrospective referendum because the 1975 referendum wasn't about the kind of EU we're now in.
How much more justified then is a referendum in Scotland as to the Treaty of Union 1707. The Scots people had no voice at that time, and the current UK Union is very different from the one that the Scots Parliament voted to join.
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#116 I'm not sure Dean actually understands politics in Scotland. He's living in his cosy little one-nation tradition. Dreaming of the good old days that he thinks are going to return.
What he doesn't realise is that the Scottish labour vote is a soft nationalist vote - they are not unionists by conviction. When the tories win, the labour vote will run for cover.
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97. At 8:54pm on 05 Oct 2009, govanite
"You always seem such a nice reasonable chap, as most one-nation tories are. Just like my late Grandad."
Thanks, I do like to try and be reasonable, pragmatic and open minded. I dont always succeed.
"But it's not the 1950s anymore and I'm going to re-appraise my view if you keep up this ill-founded steam powered rage against the FM appearing in debates."
I have been rather...erm...party political on this issue. Sorry.
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# 88 astonishedII
That's what I've been trying to post in two of my moderated posts and my # 62
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119. mrbfaethedee
"
I think the scots tories should have persisted with their careful rehabilitation act..."
That option was open to them. Given the appalling behaviour of the British Labour Party (North Britain branch) it was open to the Scottish Tories to position themselves as the effective opposition in Holyrood and, thence, the second party of Scottish politics.
Goldie blew it!
She decide to join forces with the bitter has-beens exemplified by Gray and Foulkes. As her conference speech so amply demonstrates, she has opted out of engaging with the reality of Scottish politics in 2009 and elected instead to rely on a combination of "Golden Age" jingoism and the kind of hate-speak the SNP has always eschewed.
Goldie is a failure.
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#113. handclapping wrote:
Am I the only one old enough to remember cammie knickers? Dangerous for the inexperienced as I was then.
I had to look them up. I think my granny wore them. I never knew the name. ;-)
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120. JRMacClure
"But being female and American..."
Hiding behind pleas of anti-Americanism and sexism. You really are lost for a substantive argument. Bet you wish you were a black lesbian quadriplegic with dyslexia and irritable bowel syndrome. Then you'd have a full set.
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121. X_Sticks
Given that they've no hope of doing it X_Sticks, we'll have to take the silver lining - If they think that running with policies like that will help them, then they have badly misjudged the Scottish people, and I hope it costs them at the polls!
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41. mrbfaethedee
"Didn't see tarnished goldie's speech - is there a transcript up anywhere yet?"
I'll save you the trouble.
Alex Salmond is the spawn of Beelzebub.
Private profit takes precedence over everything.
Alex Salmond is the spawn of Beelzebub.
Scotland and its people are of less than no significance.
Alex Salmond is the spawn of Beelzebub. And he drinks the blood of living babies.
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129. JRMacClure
I do hope handclapping didn't know your granny!
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#130. So then address the issues such as that the housekeeper's story is totally different that then Baroness's but the authorities didn't even speak to her before imposing the fine. Address the fact that the passport they located does NOT match the Baroness's description.
Or is it easier to refer to me by dismissive terms such as "little one" and refer to anything that disagrees with your opinion as "silly" (almost always reserved for women) or "inane"?
My opinion, based one a number of your statements to me, is that you are a sexist xenophobe.
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#132 Electric
Very funny.
Freedom
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132. Electric Hermit
Oh, you're sure to be on their shortlist for new speech writers :)
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Cameron has no more respect for Scotland than he does for Newcastle.
Tonight in an interview with BBC's David Porter they spoke merrily about the 'Scottish Executive'.
Either they weren't aware of the name change or they deliberately wanted to downgrade the Scottish Government by calling it the Scottish 'Executive'.
Either way, not a lot of respect shown their David old bean.
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50. cynicalHighlander
"
That would be "B flat" then in Scotland."
Just give them a B, they'll flatten it themselves! :)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Then there is another BBC article on the subject of Baroness Scotland:
Baroness Scotland has been fined £5,000 for employing a housekeeper who isn't legally allowed to work in the UK
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BBC poll - Anti-Labour vote 'boosts Tories'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8291325.stm
Now how many Scots ex-Labour voters are going to choose the Tories for their "protest vote"?
dean - you have a problem. You don't have increased support down South. Simply that Labour have pi$$ed them off more.
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132. At 11:17pm on 05 Oct 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
41. mrbfaethedee
"Didn't see tarnished goldie's speech - is there a transcript up anywhere yet?"
I'll save you the trouble.
Alex Salmond is the spawn of Beelzebub.
No he is not! He's the son of Shrek.......
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106. deanthetory
"I put it to you and everyone else [in the friendliest of terms] that the anti-tory factor is as good as dead in Scotland today."
I invite you (in the friendliest of terms) to come round and examine the box in the loft with the bunting, the party hats, the petrol-soaked butchers apron, box of Swans, bottle of cheap sherry and six-pack of Tennents lager and then to repair to the kitchen where in the third drawer down in the freezer we will look at the jumbo bag of frozen sausage rolls. And thence to the garage where hanging on the far wall is the pasting table. All of them ready for action at a minutes notice for the street party on the Glorious Day when Margaret Hilda breathes her last.
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Dean re your 106
I put it to you and everyone else [in the friendliest of terms] that the anti-tory factor is as good as dead in Scotland today.
You really are living in a parallel universe if you believe that. The torys in Scotland are as toxic now as they ever were, and call me Daves definition of "respect" and Forsyth as unelected Scottish Secretary will drive a further wedge in tory support.
While torys always (since Thatcher) were toxic in Scotland, and always will be, but what I found interesting is that people in England remember just how toxic they were.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6862325.ece
So it would appear that people in England will just hold their noses and vote toxic tory because they are not Labour. What a mandate, I am just glad that we have a credible alternative to vote for in Scotland.
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1. Norway
3. Iceland
5. Ireland
6. Netherlands
7. Sweden
Well, the first 2 listed are keen on hunting whales and seals. Is this the key to prosperity?
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#133 oldnat
Why? I'm still gorgeous now and we'd've been younger then! 8-)
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Ach we're too wee and poor .....
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Salmon-farms-net-165m-for.5705320.jp
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#134 JRMacClure
seXist Xenophobe could be a worthwhile Scrabble score.
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134. JRMacClure
"So then address the issues such as that the housekeeper's story is totally different that then Baroness's but the authorities didn't even speak to her before imposing the fine. "
This has already been explained to you. But the facts conflict with your inane conspiracy theories, so you probably couldn't even see them. Hence the phrase, "blind prejudice".
You refer to "the authorities". Yet you seem unable to grasp that there is more than one authority involved here. The fine that you mention was a penalty imposed by the UK Border Agency (UKBA) for failure to retain photocopies of certain documents. This was the only offence alleged against Baroness Scotland which fell within the jurisdiction of the UK Border Agency. Baroness Scotland admitted the breach and paid the penalty. The UKBA had to reason and no need to speak to the housekeeper about an offence which had already been admitted and dealt with.
What you need to try very hard to understand is that if there are other allegations which fall outwith the remit of the UK Border Agency then that is an entirely separate matter. You seem to be carried away with the foolish notion that the UK Border Agency's finding was the end of the affair. It is not. If evidence of further offences comes to light these will be dealt with by the relevant authorities. Your banging on about Scotland having "got off" with some misdeed that she has not even been charged with displays a profound ignorance of the law.
As far as I can make out, the only further allegations are those being made by Ms Tapui - with the assistance of Max Clifford. Unless these allegations are supported by documents or some other form of corroborating evidence then they are highly unlikely to constitute grounds for further action against your favourite hate-figure of the moment.
And if there is such corroborating evidence then you might do better to ask why Ms Tapui and her highly paid publicity agent have not handed it over to the authorities instead of touting it around the gutter press.
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136. mrbfaethedee
"Oh, you're sure to be on their shortlist for new speech writers :)"
I'm just waiting on the call.
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Times - "Salmond must play it for country, not party"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6862424.ece
Linklater, in essence not much different analysis from BT's (though BT writes better, and his analysis is sharper).
Has the English Tory High Command abandoned Auntie Annabel, because they reckon that Scotland would be a waste of their resources, and the SNP will ensure that Labour no longer runs English affairs?
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143. Sgt_Furry
You didn't fix a date! I'm disappointed!
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146. ArranBrownButterfly
Don't think so. Australia came 2nd, and thay are more interested in sails and wheels.
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147. handclapping
LOL
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#149. At 00:17am on 06 Oct 2009, handclapping wrote:
#134 JRMacClure
seXist Xenophobe could be a worthwhile Scrabble score.
True! I would certainly win. But the few times I've played I never got the right tiles for good words like that. :(
147. At 00:13am on 06 Oct 2009, handclapping wrote:
#133 oldnat
Why? I'm still gorgeous now and we'd've been younger then! 8-)
Gah! No! Not my sweet old granny. Well, maybe my other granny. ;-)
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146. ArranBrownButterfly
"Well, the first 2 listed are keen on hunting whales and seals. Is this the key to prosperity?"
While we, on the other hand, have spent the past eight years hunting one human and killing thousands of others, by accident, on the way.
What are the economic, social, environmental and ecological consequences of that enterprise and what impact has it had on the natural habitat of the ArranBrownButterfly?
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#146. Actually, it's the Japanese who are keen on slaughtering whales. Not sure where they ended up.
#148. At 00:14am on 06 Oct 2009, oldnat wrote:
Ach we're too wee and poor .....
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Salmon-farms-net-165m-for.5705320.jp
Everyone knows that food production doesn't count--the fact that the entire world is fast approaching a food crisis notwithstanding. :-)
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#143. I invite you (in the friendliest of terms) to come round and examine the box in the loft with the bunting, the party hats, the petrol-soaked butchers apron, box of Swans, bottle of cheap sherry and six-pack of Tennents lager and then to repair to the kitchen where in the third drawer down in the freezer we will look at the jumbo bag of frozen sausage rolls. And thence to the garage where hanging on the far wall is the pasting table. All of them ready for action at a minutes notice for the street party on the Glorious Day when Margaret Hilda breathes her last.
Ha! You guys really are not big on forgiving the Tories are you? Of course, I haven't forgiven the Republicans for Reagan or EITHER of the Bushes... Or for the voter fraud that went on in Florida.
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Gah! No! Not my sweet old granny. Well, maybe my other granny.
Ye can shove yer ither granny - - -
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# Again they have moderated my posting because I said that one of them was not telling the truth. If one person says one thing and another says the opposite then it is obvious that one or the other is not telling the truth. What is wrong with that mods?
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#161. At 01:25am on 06 Oct 2009, patrickspens wrote:
Gah! No! Not my sweet old granny. Well, maybe my other granny.
Ye can shove yer ither granny - - -
LOL Love that old song but you didn't know my other granny. She was an *ahem* interesting woman. My mother didn't approve of her. She might have gotten along well with handclapping now that I think of it. ;-)
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gedguy2 apparently I am now not allowed to say that political goings-on might have influenced a certain Baroness only getting a quick slap on the wrist and you're not allowed to one person saying one thing and another person saying the opposite would involve one of them doing something starting with an "L".
Interesting doings on the ol' homestead. (An good American saying)
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We can chat off-topic and make jokes all we want, but for HEAVEN'S SAKE don't discuss political realities.
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161. patrickspens
Only, I think, if she happens to be your paternal grandmother. The rules are clear:
Oh, ye cannae shove yer granny aff a bus!
Oh, ye cannae shove yer granny aff a bus!
Oh, ye cannae shove yer granny
For she's yer mammy's mammy
Oh, ye cannae shove yer granny aff a bus!
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Been a lurker here from the very beginning but it took 'Ye Cannae Shove yer Grannie aff a Bus' to tempt me to contribute - what am a like!
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# 150 Electric Hermit
Is telling an untruth to the border agency in the course of their investigations an offence? I am not saying that anyone has made an untruth I am just asking a general question.
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#167. Well, you see. We're safe since the granny in question who is being shoved off the bus is my daddy's mammy.
I seem to recall that The Corries used to sing that but I never quite understood why you could shove your daddy's mammy off the bus with impunity.
Some mysterious political shenanigans perhaps? =)
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#168. Haha! Well welcome to de-lurking.
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I just want everyone to know that as a red-blooded American woman is scares me that I know both the words and the tune to that.
Just saying...
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# 165 JRMacClure
It seems that I cannot even quote from a BBC article. I'll try it again without explanations.
From the BBC Northern Ireland presenter William Crawley:
The Attorney General did not know that Loloahi Tapui was an illegal immigrant.
also
In this case, the baroness says she saw Loloahi Tapui's passport and believed the relevant documentation was in order
Draw your own conclusions.
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168. patrickspens
You're welcome anyway. Indeed you sound like a lot of us who take our politics seriously, but not ourselves.
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170. JRMacClure
"Some mysterious political shenanigans perhaps? =)"
I think it's seXist! Neither granda merits a mention! :)
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JR - It may surprise you to know that I live down in the SW corner of Virginia - and a whole generation of kids around here are singing that song now. Of course it was Artie and Cilla of Singing Kettle fame that has all the Scots kids singing it (and their grannies).
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176. patrickspens
Hey! You may not be far away from where I spent the last 5 weeks in the NC Triad.
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172. JRMacClure
"I just want everyone to know that as a red-blooded American woman is scares me that I know both the words and the tune to that."
I've just remembered that my maternal grandfather was killed when he was thrown from a tram as it rounded a corner.
I laughed at the thought! Should that scare me? :)
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#175. You are absolutely right. It's the grandas who should be thrown off the bus!
Haha! That's funny patrickspens. I've never heard anyone here (in Oregon) sing it but there is much more Scottish influence back east and in the South. I'll have to teach it to some kids!
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Tri-Cities area, Oldnat
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NOT in reference to comment #173--because heaven forfend we accuse someone of doing that "L" thing.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1216404/I-didnt-Baroness-Scotland-passport-says-housekeeper-sensational-new-allegations.html
The Mail on Sunday can disclose that UK Border Agency officials found a Tongan passport belonging to Ms Tapui when they raided her flat last week, but that a visa it contained, apparently entitling her to work in the UK, had been forged - and in any case was out of date when Lady Scotland took her on.
Now you wouldn't expect anyone to know it was forged but -- an out of date visa might be a give-away to the Attorney General--don't cha think. But I'm sure that was not what the Attorney General was shown because she would NOT lie. Right? RIGHT?
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#178. I've just remembered that my maternal grandfather was killed when he was thrown from a tram as it rounded a corner.
I laughed at the thought! Should that scare me? :)
Oh, I am a BAD person that it made me laugh, too. Bad person. Bad.
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Actually, I remember the line as
For she's no yer mammy's mammy
which not only scans better, but is much more appropriate for a matriarchal society.
Anyone else remember it that way?
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Would someone PLEASE tell Boris Johnson to stop cutting his hair with hedgeclippers. I don't require handsome in a politician but not looking like an out-take from Black Adder is nice.
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Hehe. Don't ask me. And there may be more than one version--probably is. There usually are of songs like that.
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183. oldnat
"much more appropriate for a matriarchal society"
Aw, naw! No' mair politics! Could ye no' jist let me be happy for a minute? :)
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Things don't seem to be going smoothly in Manchester.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/05/tory-leaders-clash-over-eu
And the reason for my comment about Mr. Johnson.
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I knew I could add some class to this discussion!
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#188. Absolutely! Maybe you can even settle the bitter dispute over wither it's 'no your mammy's mammy' or not before we come to blows on the topic. *nods solemnly and reaches for the wine bottle*
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The question is--who does Boris Johnson look like from Black Adder?
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"Maybe you can even settle the bitter dispute over wither it's 'no your mammy's mammy' or not before we come to blows on the topic"
I shall sleep on it and give my considered opinion tomorrow.
'Night all.
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180. patrickspens
That's not a term I ever heard used there. Winston-Salem, Greensboro, and High Point were regularly referred to as the Triad - as opposed to the Research Triangle.
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186. albamac
Naw.
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But come to think of it David Cameron looks like Black Adder himself. Or is that the wine talking? *ponder ponder*
Someone tell me this--how much do people really care about the EU? I've never been able to tell.
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I need to get off US time, and go to bed. Night all.
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Now they ALL look like out-takes from Black Adder. This is scary! Take a look at this photo of Ken Clarke!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6861906.ece
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Phooey. No one but me is on west coast time.
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This whole respect agenda was explored by more serious commentators back in 2006, and its now been re-published at: http://thejaggythistle.blogspot.com/2009/10/long-time-ago.html
:)
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#190 JRMacClure
"The question is--who does Boris Johnson look like from Black Adder?"
Boris always reminds me of Prince Harry [Robert East] in series 1, but I can't find a photo without a hat, though the "hairstyle" was not unlike Prince Edmund's as modelled here.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#143
Thank you so much. You made me laugh, which hasn't been easy the past week.
And as for Hilda. May she never be forgotten. A reminder to never, ever allow the Tories to ruin this country, ever again.
Bella won't be retiring as early as we'd hoped. Darn!
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# 181 JRMacClure
Having read the article it doesn't look good for the baroness. It reminds me of the 'Scottish' MP who had a receipt for work done at his home when it was blatantly obvious from the pictures supplied that there was no work done. Then that MP had the excuse that maybe the electrician had died. By the way, does anyone know what happened to him?
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I'm a little confused by the events in Manchester. The Official Conservative line appears to be that the NewLabs, who are self-evidently a set of beastly rotters, have wrecked the economy. The Official Tories, under Cameron are the allegedly the sensible faction but have allied themselves with right wing gibbering idiots in Europe, whilst decrying Salmond's version of Scottish Nationalism, in a quaint juxtaposition, as 'extreme'.
Meanwhile, the Provisional Conservative faction, under the command of BoJo, advocate that the UK embark on years of anti-EU turmoil, backed by more of the 'light-touch' regulation of the Square Mile Casino that led to the problem in the first place as cures for this regrettable state of affairs.
Meanwhile, over the water, the rest of Europe quietly gets about recovering from the economic collapse, secure in the euro zone, and with regulation against yhe cavalier attitudes of the banking fraternity being erected as needed.
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169. gedguy2
"Is telling an untruth to the border agency in the course of their investigations an offence?"
I'm sure it would be an offence.
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202. obviousalias
Schizophrenic party or two-faced party? The choice is yours!
Casino capitalism will be preserved under the tories, and right-wing is the only wing.
Remember too when looking at the countries like Germany and France working their way out of recession, that's why we need to preserve the union at all costs - to act as a counterweight against France & Germany !?!
These clowns are on course to be the next UK goverment !?! You couldn't make it up.
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181. JRMacClure
"Now you wouldn't expect anyone to know it was forged but -- an out of date visa might be a give-away to the Attorney General--don't cha think."
And what do you imagine this proves?
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I don't think Auntie Bella has been at her best lately.
"We believe in Britain, not narrow nationalism."
Ms Goldie, you are a nationalist, and that is nationalism. Hello.
Or to put it another way, British nationalism is good, Scottish nationlism is bad. Apparently.
This motes-and-beams motif continues when it comes to discussing referenda. Apparently the Tories want to have a referendum on "Europe" becasue "it's not the Europe people voted for". But they don't want to have a referendum on the Union, even though the people have never been given the chance to vote on it, ever....
Do they ever look in the mirror?
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#201 gedguy2
By the way have you read the following article.
Swift u-turn saved Baroness Scotland
And she is the attorney-general.
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201. gedguy2
"It reminds me of the 'Scottish' MP who had a receipt for work done at his home when it was blatantly obvious from the pictures supplied that there was no work done."
Sounds like Jim Devine, NuLab MP for Livingstone. As I recall, the constituency party backed him. But Browns "star chamber" sacked him.
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202. obviousalias
"Meanwhile, the Provisional Conservative faction, under the command of BoJo, advocate that the UK embark on years of anti-EU turmoil, backed by more of the 'light-touch' regulation of the Square Mile Casino that led to the problem in the first place as cures for this regrettable state of affairs."
I like the line from George Monbiot in The Guardian,
"Business without regulation is scarcely distinguishable from organised crime"
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# 202 obviousalias
I'm desperately trying not to agree with you that the tories are two-faced as I want to see the Tories wipe the floor with Labour in England. Hopefully when/if this happens, and if we have a resurgence of SNP MPs in Scotland at the same time, then the UK government's moral standing to rule the UK slips gently under the water. We all know that when/if the Tories get into power in Westminster that there are going to be Cuts! Cuts! Cuts! due to the financial mismanagement of the economy under Labour...again. This is going to be bad for the economical health of Scotland but politically good for the SNP who can then accuse the UK government of not looking after the needs of the people of Scotland, which will, of course, be true.
One of the things about the political parties that I find disgusting is their idea that it is OK to attack the underclasses when times get rough. They, that's Labour as well as the Tories, seem to believe that it is fair game to attack a section of the population that has no political clout to look after their own interests. This used to be the job of the Labour party until they abandoned the working classes and went after the more affluent sections of society, while still pretending that they actually cared for the people at the bottom of the pile. The days when the Labour party could call themselves socialists has long gone. Let's keep in mind that the reason there is an underclass is due the heartless capitalist agenda set out by Maggie years ago. This started it. Then Labour when they took control did nothing to ease the burden on those who were struggling at the bottom. It is all nice and fine people at the top in comfortable houses with comfortable incomes telling those at the bottom that they should get out and work. One, where is the work? and two, would they be happy to try and exist on the groats that passes for a living wage? Then you have them saying well they should move to get work; where? Even if they do move where are they going to get affordable accomodation to take on that low paid work? There is a huge shortage of affordable accomodation in this country. So, the poor are left to flounder in their misery while the politicians attack them for being poor and unable to get themselves out of the rut that they were forced into.
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# 203 Electric Hermit
One would think so. So, having read the article in the newspaper supplied by JR, and taking everything into account and not just the original Border agency's administative fine, would you still stand by your position that the aforementioned person still has nothing to answer?
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I do not for a minute claim to be a supporter of the Conservative Party. That said, with the New Labour adventure currently crashing and burning, in all parts of the UK, I would however suggest, suggest nothwithstanding the often incredibly stupid and insensitive tendency of the Tories in the 80/90s regarding their approach to Scotland, their apparent 'right wing' policies to many art the time are nothing in comparison to what New Labour have brought us.
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210 gedguy
I don't think you need worry. The Tories will win in England, and then reveral themselves as everything you say they are. It's a win-win for the SNP, an outcome I will applaud. However, I share with you the concern that the SNP's gain will be(through no fault of its own) paid for heavily by the poor of all the current UK.
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200. At 08:39am on 06 Oct 2009, copperDolomite wrote:
"#143
Thank you so much. You made me laugh, which hasn't been easy the past week.
And as for Hilda. May she never be forgotten. A reminder to never, ever allow the Tories to ruin this country, ever again."
Tell me, how is it back there in 1987? Please feel free to accept my invitation to join the politics of 2009!
Seriously, how can you be expected to be taken seriously by anyone if you come out with stupid buffle like that drivel?
Its like saying "Labour will get rid of Nuclear weaponary- becauase thats what theyu said in their 1983 manifesto"- it sounds stupid, looks stupid and is patently stupid.
You cannot judge a party on their manifesto comittments of 30 years ago for goodness sakes. It is actions and not words which speak loud: take a look at those big pantomime bad guy tories record for Scotland:
£60 millions towncentre regeneration fund.
[I know some of you dont like me saying all this- but until you all stop saying silly nonsense about evil tories doing down Scotland I shall persist eternally]
Support for the SNP Council Tax freeze- it makes a real difference.
Have successfully managed to negotiate a small business tax cut- aiding Scottish employment during the recession.
I could and might in the future go on...until you apologise for patently stupid remarks like your not-so-funny "allow the Tories to ruin this country, ever again"- you think regenerating neglected community towncentres is ruining Scotland?! You think protecting employees jobs by providing their small business employer with tax cuts is ruining Scotland?! What planet are you on mate?
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210. At 10:59am on 06 Oct 2009, gedguy2
"One of the things about the political parties that I find disgusting is their idea that it is OK to attack the underclasses when times get rough. They, that's Labour as well as the Tories, seem to believe that it is fair game to attack a section of the population that has no political clout to look after their own interests"
On what basis do you make this remark? I think Cameron has brought forward perfectly reasonable welfare reform proposals- aimed at helping the most vulnerable. Hardly victimising them.
Take a look at the proposed welfare reform currently being launched as party policy:
"Within three years of being elected, the Tories want all 2.6 million people on incapacity benefit to be assessed to see what work they could do and offered training or other help in getting work.
They expect about 500,000 claimants to be found jobs or transferred to jobseeker's allowance, which pays £25 a week less.
Mr Cameron said: "If you can work, you should work... we will help you to work.""
I think that this is perfectly reasonable, because if you can get more people back to work over the three years post recession- then you can make the benefits for those genuinely dependent go much further.
Less people to spend the resources on means more for those in genuine need. And if someone can work, but need a little help finding their feet; if for example they are from a generational unemployment household; then a little help getting a job- and a little push will be welcomed.
Hardly hurting the most vulnerable, infact its making the genuinely most vulnerable get more. What is wrong with that, where is the plan to hurt the poorest?
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# 208 Electric Hermit
Thanks for that I must have missed it.
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212. At 11:14am on 06 Oct 2009, pcp_glasgow
A point well made sir. I salute you.
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# 207 Roll_On_2010
I must have missed that one. I wonder how deep the sleaze rabbit hole goes? I always knew that the system was corrupt but it is even shocking me. Isn't there anyone out there who can be trusted to look after our needs without ripping us off?
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# 209 Electric Hermit
"Business without regulation is scarcely distinguishable from organised crime"
Brilliant.
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Brian,
I really think there should be a fitness test to see if politicians really are fit to govern a country, bearing in mind that very few of them have had a real job.
What qualifications do any of them really have that ensures they have the right skills to run a country?
What makes them think they can do it better than the current lot?
What makes the current lot think they can do the job better than anybody else (when they patently cannot)?
Make we should have a PM Factor, where they have to "perform" in front of a live audience (like a debate I suppose) and maybe Simon (from the X variety) to give them a mouthfull when it is apparent that they do not have the right skills.
Could be a winner.
You could be on the panel as well Brian.
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84 - "anent" is a fine auld Scots wurd! Guid tae see it yaised on here.
see www.scotslanguage.com for mair
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#9 dean
"£60 millions for towncentre regeneration- no bad thing
Dean, it is a sad reflection of the Scottish Tories that the £60m you keep baninging on about, is the only policy that they have. If it isn't, t's certainly the only one you ever mention.
Trouble is, it's irrelevant. Bt the time we've had the study groups to determine which of our town centres need regenerating, and the council run focus groups to determine what they can spend the money on (not to mention the fact-finding visits to other towns to see what they have done), there will be precious little left of the £60m and so all we'll end up getting for our money (and it is ours, the tax payers' money) is a couple of towns in the Central belt will be able hang an extra couple of flower baskets from lamp-posts on their High Streets.
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# 215 deanthetory
Dean, there are times when you put up a good argument, this is not one of those times. You state:
Mr Cameron said: "If you can work, you should work... we will help you to work.""
Where is the work? Everybody knows that the jobless figures are going to rise over the next couple of years, even you know that. There are huge swathes of the country where the manufacturing industries, which this country used to be based on, have been decimated by the Thatcher policies of the 80s. These industries have gone, Dean. These industries were the ones that kept the working classes working. I know that you are going to say 'but with the right policies then jobs will return' and I would back you on that but this will take years and in the meantime where is the work going to come from? This is typical party politics where everybody attacks the useless underclass because it brings a cheer or two at the party conferences but will never be put into practise because there is no work to 'push' them into. I have lived in London on and off for decades because London used to be the only place in the UK where work was able to be found in the building industry summer and winter. It is hard to find work down here now, for various reasons. I'm struggling to get by because the work is just not out there in the same way that it used to be. I'm not even going to mention that the money being earned down here has fallen but just mention about the difficulty in finding work. It's not as easy as you think, Dean. Wait until you have to join the job market full time and see how difficult it is, especially in a job starved area.
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Is there some policy going around the BBC that we cannot discuss the Baroness Scotland?
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# 222 Fit Like?
I wish you were only kidding.
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In her speech, Aunty Bella is reported to have said:
"You've chickened out of that challenge in the past - the last two leaders' debates in Scotland you didn't turn up - well it's time to put up or shut up."
I first noticed this last night (in the Thunderer, I think), but unsurprisingly it's being parrotted in both the Scotsman and the Herald.
I must have missed this at the time. Can anyone explain what she's on about?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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211. gedguy2
"...would you still stand by your position that the aforementioned person still has nothing to answer?"
That is not my position. I have said repeatedly that there may be further matters for which she has to answer. What I object to is the insistence that she has "got off" and/or that there has been some kind of cover-up when these other matters are still being investigated.
Some people seem to think that politicians and others in positions of power should be treated differently under the law. They seem to think that presumption of innocence and standards of proof don't apply. They are wrong. If, in the case of Baroness Scotland. there is evidence of wrongdoing such as might be likely to secure a conviction then I would expect further proceedings. That's what would happen in any other case. There is no reason why the Attorney General should be dealt with any differently.
And, so far, there is no indication that she has been dealt with in an exceptional manner. But some people leap straight to the assumption that (a)she must be guilty of something; and (b)she must be getting special treatment regardless of the facts simply because she is who she is.
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223. At 11:50am on 06 Oct 2009, gedguy2
"Wait until you have to join the job market full time and see how difficult it is, especially in a job starved area"
A fair enough criticism.
"These industries have gone, Dean. These industries were the ones that kept the working classes working. I know that you are going to say 'but with the right policies then jobs will return' and I would back you on that but this will take years and in the meantime where is the work going to come from?"
These industries are gone now, and we need to rebalance our economy by establishing fresh manufacturing industrial concerns- even if this can only be done by setting up nationalised manufacturing jobs.
But what jobs? I did mean [perhaps not making myself clear enough in my original post, sorry] that in the post-recessionary three years- when job creation will return. I think this is a policy for the next ten years, a systematic attempt to get people to return to work as soon as economically possible- in order to allow for the budget reduction strategy to succeed. The jobs themselves however will be variable. Some will be commercial [service economy] etc, others will be in nursing [for example my part time job is in nursing home]- the jobs will open up, there will always be employment of sorts. But I agree what we need is manufacturing work for the masses- that is what is lacking. It was more than just an easy way of proving employment- it was an aspect of Scottish working class cutlure and pride.
We need the return of the skilled labourer, the manufacturuing industry- and this must be a long term economic strategy- vital to rebalance an economy all too reliant on financial sector growth [and abuse].
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I have just received an e-mail from the BBC stating that my postings on the Baroness Scotland affair may be defamatory. They supplied a link to their 'defamatory section' which may be of interest to the readers on this blog:
BBC User Generated Content and Defamation
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This page intends to explain what the law of defamation means, and how you can avoid posting defamatory material to any BBC community site or messageboard.
BBC Defamation Policy
It is against the House Rules to post defamatory material to any BBC community site or messageboard. If you post content that we believe might be defamatory, we will remove it. Potentially defamatory material, may, at the Editor's discretion, be posted if there is credible evidence supporting your claims, or if the content is deemed to be fair comment.
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Defamation is the legal term that covers both slander and libel; slander is defamation by word of mouth, and libel is defamation in written form. It is, therefore, the type of defamation we are concerned with in content posted onto the BBC. A statement about an individual or organisation is deemed to be defamatory if it harms their reputation by:
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Who Can Sue for Defamation?
Individuals can sue for defamation, and companies can sue for injury to their trading reputation. Although most of the expensive legal claims made against media companies have been made by companies and not individuals, a lot of claims are made against individuals too. It is therefore, important to check your facts whether talking about companies or individuals.
In addition, groups of identifiable individuals can sue for defamation, for example clubs, interest groups etc. See the 'Identification' section below for more details.
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Governments and local authorities can't sue for defamation, but individuals within those organisations can if the defamatory statements disparage individuals in their office, profession or trade. So it is possible to defame the UK Prime Minister or the President of the USA as individuals, but not their governments. However, dead people can not be defamed and their estate cannot sue for defamation.
Who Can be Sued?
Both the publisher and the author of defamatory material can be sued for making defamatory statements. This means that both you as the author of the content, and the BBC as the publisher, can be sued for defamation.
Avoiding Defamation
The following sets out some of the defamation issues you should be aware of when writing content for any BBC community site or messageboard.
Meaning - Regardless of whether you intend to or not, if a statement is understood by a reasonable person to be defamatory, you will be liable for defamation. A statement that is apparently innocent may carry an inference that is defamatory, so be extra careful that what you write can not be interpreted to be defamatory when you didn't mean it to be.
You cannot imply or infer something defamatory about someone, or make a comment from which a defamatory statement could be inferred. Even if a statement seems innocent on the surface, it's possible that it could be interpreted as defamatory to those with special knowledge, so be careful, as innuendo may be defamatory.
Identification - For a defamation case to succeed, the defamatory statement must be seen to refer to the claimant, even if that was not the writer's intention. Leaving out someone's name is no guarantee of avoiding defamation, if there are other clues that could lead to their identification.
Not naming anyone can be equally problematic. For example, if you said that 'one of the authors of today's five top articles has stolen work from someone else', then each of the authors of 'today's articles' could argue that the statement could reasonably be taken to refer to him or her, and they could all sue for libel. However, if you said 'all BBC community members were crooks', then the category is so wide that no single member could say he or she was defamed
Repetition - Just because you are quoting someone else's words does not mean it is safe. If you say 'X said that Y did Z', then if saying that Y did Z is defamatory, you have just repeated a defamatory statement. Even if you are quoting published work, it is possible that the publisher was sued when they published it, or it is possible that it slipped by unnoticed. Whatever the case, it is not safe to repeat it. As far as the law is concerned, each publication is a fresh publication of the defamation and can be sued upon.
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The three main defences to any claim for defamation are Justification, Fair Comment and Privilege. When publishing articles and postings, our Editors and hosts will have regard to these defences. It is not a defence to defamation to argue that your story should be published in the public interest. Let's look at each in a bit more detail.
Justification - This is the most commonly used defence against libel. Put simply, this means that however much the subject of your story dislikes what you are saying, you have evidence that will stand up in a court of law that can prove what you are saying to be true.
Simply putting 'allegedly' at the start of your statement doesn't stop a statement being defamatory at all; you need to have proof that what you are saying is true. As far as user generated content articles go, if you say anything contentious about an individual or company, put in a footnote to a reliable source where this fact can be checked. Put in a footnote for each statement you make that might make us, as publishers, uneasy. It is not enough just to cite lots of sources at the end of your article; you must be specific with which source proves which statement, so they can be checked.
Fair Comment - Opinion made honestly on a matter of public interest can also be used as a defence against defamation. The term 'fair comment' gives the impression that the comments have to be 'fair', but in fact, all that is required is that the opinion is honestly held. However, for the defence to succeed, it is essential that the statement was made without malice.
In law, malice means more than spite or ill will - it means any dishonest or improper motive. If you made a comment based on facts you knew to be untrue, or commented upon facts recklessly without caring whether they were true or not, or made a comment about someone simply to discredit them, then this would constitute malice, and you would not be able to claim 'fair comment' as your defence.
Privilege - There are times when complete freedom of speech, without any risk of defamation action, is in the public interest. For example, the Bill of Rights allows MPs to say what they like within the debating chambers of the House of Commons, so they can debate without having to worry about being sued.
Reporters covering court proceedings, the proceedings of industrial tribunals and certain other kinds of public enquiries, are also protected by privilege, so long as the case is open to the public and the report is fair, accurate and made without malice.
On the subject of court proceedings, you are not allowed to publish anything might influence the court proceedings. This is called contempt. It is for this reason that no publications can allow comments about ongoing court cases that might have any bearing on the outcome, this includes members' articles and postings on to BBC community sites and messageboards
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214. deanthetory
"Tell me, how is it back there in 1987? Please feel free to accept my invitation to join the politics of 2009!"
It is for the Tories to prove that they have moved on from the dark days of Thatcherism. By castigating those whom your party has utterly failed to convince of this you only reinforce the impression that nothing much has changed.
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Politicians just love alliteration. My favourite is Labour's stupendously moronic 'balkanisation of Britain' routine, but 'narrow nationalism' is a close-run second. I have no real problem with opposition politicians trying to attack the prospect of an independent Scotland because, in my opinion, it just makes them look silly when they say they'll battle against independence, and they are made to look foolish when they associate independence with some strange anachronistic concept, and indulge in strange little stories about about the rest of the world burning while Britain - RULE BRITANNIA - stands tall, with stern demeanour. Independence is the way of the world, and they know it well enough, so let them look foolish, it is just their way.
Putting aside their insults, I do have a problem, particularly with the Tories claiming someone like me has a narrow outlook just because I would rather Scotland worked as part of an interdependent partnership with all our neighbours, be part of the EU, and engage in international relations. That, to me, is a far broader outlook than anything the British nationalistic Tories and Labour can ever conceive, convinced as they are that if they wish it, their Britain - RULE BRITANNIA - will be a great power again, bossing about Johnny Foreigner, looking on with disdain at Europe. One need only think of their fantasy of a 'special relationship' with the US. The real anachronism is Westminster, the real anachronism is centralised rule, the real anachronism is the power politics paradigm that the British nationalistic Labour and Tories indulge themselves in, blind as they are to something better in which our countries share sovereignty in partnership with one another.
Interestingly, Cameron has claimed he'll rule Scotland with respect, which is awfully kind and nice of him, and he places a great emphasis on biannual meetings he will have with the devolved nations, and again how wonderfully benign. There's another part of the world in which nations meet bi-annually, the Nordic Council, and these nations aren't all devolved from a centralised rule, but again they must just be 'narrow nationalists'.
Just like the rest of the world, insisting as they do on their independence and interdependence ... darn the loss of the Empire, just one last push was all it would have taken, 'narrowness' everywhere else now, but not here on these shores, oh no, not here, except maybe there, and there! Anyone for a referendum on Lisbon Treaty, what's that you say, everyone else has moved on! I don't believe it, those darned 'narrow nationalists' everytime, it wasn't like that in our day, I tell you, we told them what to do! Hoist that flag up and sing, this time with feeling, once more with passion, it's all it'll take, nothing narrow about this lad, nothing ...
Fantasy, pure fantasy, but leave them to it, it's just their way.
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214. deanthetory
"Tell me, how is it back there in 1987? Please feel free to accept my invitation to join the politics of 2009!
Seriously, how can you be expected to be taken seriously by anyone if you come out with stupid buffle like that drivel?
Its like saying "Labour will get rid of Nuclear weaponary- becauase thats what theyu said in their 1983 manifesto"- it sounds stupid, looks stupid and is patently stupid."
The last tory reign ran from halfway through 1983 to halfway through 1997, so if you seek to place people's issues with the tories into a more historical context by years just give the bracketing years it looks far less 'disingenous'.
The problem with viewing it in years is that it doesn't reflect the actual nature of general elections dictating who governs a country deanthetory - the salient factor here is not a simple case of 'how long ago', but how many conservative governments ago. If you look at it that way, all people are saying is - 'the last time the tories were in power, blah, blah blah'.
If you keep ignoring this fact you will never convince the people you claim you want to 'join you in 2009'.
Nobody that has expressed their ill-feeling towards the previous tory reign did so on the basis of the manifestos upon which they were elected, but on the acts of the tory governments. The premise of these complaints is that the actions of the tory govt's harmed Scotland, it's not like saying anything about manifestos because no one was, - trying to make out that it is leaves you making the non-sequiter that you did - it sounds desperate, looks desperate, is patently desperate.
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# 228 deanthetory
Fair enough.
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215. deanthetory
You've been reading the Ladybird Book of Economics again, haven't you? You actually seem to believe that you can take £650million or more a year out of the bottom of the economy during a recession with no consequences. And you also seem to believe that training people for non-existent jobs can be done at no cost.
But, worst of all, you are gullible enough to believe that your pal "Cammie" (chortle) will do what he says.
The tax/benefit system is a shambles. And it's a shambles precisely because of the kind of populist tinkering "Cammie" (snigger) is talking about.
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Given the # of south of the border ex-pats now exploiting upon the Scottish doorstep, I can't help but feel these numbers may very well return some more Scots Tories at the next election. I'm hoping not, but there are just so many of them living here now that were once former English Tories. If dissatisfied Scots with NUlabour I'm hoping they opt for either the NATS / LIBS or some extreme nasty types excluding the Tories that is!
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# 227 Electric Hermit
In one of my moderated posts I was agreeing with you on the principle that everyone should be treated the same under the law. However, the bits I added to that seems to have fallen foul of the defamation rules of the BBC. C'est la vie. I was not aware that there are further investigations currently underway concerning the Baroness. If that is the case then you are correct in what you are saying and we should wait until those investigations have concluded. Even though I really want to say... ;-)
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235.
I think us expats are less homogeneous than you imagine. Voting Tory, as in the rural Shires of the South, or NuLab, as in West Yorkshire, make make less sense once in a Scottish context. For myself, having voted Lib Dem for 20 years to make sure a Tory didn't get in, I now vote SNP because the Tory vote is dead and buried here in NE Fife.
Anent the anticipated demise of Maggie: a friend once described a conversation he had once with colleagues on the subject of whether the Iron Lady's final resting place would be best topped off with a dancefloor or a pissoir to enable visitors to demonstrate their feelings. It was decided to say to to hang with the expense, and to provide both.
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#225 gedguy2
"# 222 Fit Like?
I wish you were only kidding."
Sadly, so do I...
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236. gedguy2
"I was not aware that there are further investigations currently underway concerning the Baroness."
Allegations have been made by Ms Tapui/Max Clifford. Along with claims of evidence. If the claims are genuine then the allegations will have to be investigated. But it all looks a bit flimsy to me. Things may not have happened exactly as either party says they did. But whether that implies any wrongdoing is another matter. As is whether that wrongdoing can be proved in a court of law.
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Online Ed Here
I see that Cameron has all but destroyed the Calman Unionist alliance by effectively refusing to back borrowing powers for Holyrood.
Yes, it's the same old excuse of "not during the current climate". I wonder if there is a cut off point for using this excuse or can it simply be used for anything?
Remember of course that the 'current climate' is likely to be with us for many, many years as a result of Labour's mishandling of the economy.
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I see Boris's ex-deputy mayor,Ian Clement, has appeared in court after admitting expenses fraud. He made three unauthorised claims totalling £156. He will be sentenced later.
One rule for MPs ........
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Re Dean
the need for a return to manufacturing work for the masses is a nice thought. Our heavy engineering / manufacturing base is gone and will not come back. We will never be able to or want to compete with far east countries to build ships, make trainers, clothes, electrical goods or anything else. The Chinese have an inexhaustible human resource at very low rates of pay. In the global economy we now live in they have cornered manufacturing for the present.
We simply cannot do it cheap enough. I live near a freezer factory, it struggles to survive, I hope it does but it really is touch and go at times.
We need to rebuild our economy on innovation and technology where we can compete. Clyde Blowers is a good example of the type of enterprise we need to build. There are others. There are also good ideas out there that need developed to create jobs.
These type of jobs can be long lasting as they represent the future, not the past. However they need encouraged, that is why business start up is key, why the reform of Scottish enterprise and Highland and Island Enterprise have been so disappointing. They have been botched, now instead of reform and making them fit for the recession they have had further budget cuts.
In the north we are on the cusp of a new technology, tidal power. We have the natural resource, we have the people resource. However we have no adequate government support to prime the pump. the budget cut for HIE puts the whole thing in danger. Other countries are working on this as well, we will end up getting our resource exploited by others. the government seem happy with this.
As a nation the Scots are good inventors and engineers. We led the last industrial revolution, we could lead the next but we need to get our act together, we have lost the will to innovate and graft over the years.
So nothing any politician has said post recession really starts to build for the future. Cameron and Boy George are just offering a package ever so slighly different to Labour, but offer no new real thinking.
We need a bolder vision to regenerate, but vision is sadly lacking in all our politicians. A new world will develop form the current mess, it will be those who adapt quickest that will benefit most. We just seem to be paddling around in circles, our politicians have developed no new thinking.
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#214: DeantheTory -
"Seriously, how can you be expected to be taken seriously by anyone if you come out with stupid buffle like that drivel?"
Out of the mouth of babes, etc.
"£60 millions towncentre regeneration fund."
That'll be the Scottish Government's Town Centre Regeneration Fund then, presumably, as detailed on their website here
"Less people to spend the resources on means more for those in genuine need."
So Cammie Dave's planning to increase benefits then? Funny, I hadn't read that in any of the reports on his policy plans. Could you provide a link?
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237. At 1:00pm on 06 Oct 2009, obviousalias
"For myself, having voted Lib Dem for 20 years to make sure a Tory didn't get in, I now vote SNP because the Tory vote is dead and buried here in NE Fife"
I pity you, you can only understand what you stand for by knowing what you hate. If hate is what you require to understand your own values your a desperately sad person.
"It was decided to say to to hang with the expense, and to provide both."
You have no respect for the dead eh? Yeh- real Liberal of you. *snigger*
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#244
She's not dead yet is she? Have I missed something?
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I pity you, you can only understand what you stand for by knowing what you hate. If hate is what you require to understand your own values your a desperately sad person.
It's called tactical voting. No hate involved - just a decision to avoid the outcome I desired least.
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As I mentioned several times yesterday, Dean. The Conservatives remain unpopular and detested amougst much of the Scottish population.
Your attitude concerning Scottish Conservative gains are premature. You will have to continue the fight for survival or you'll simply become a hiccup in Scottish politics.
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Deanthetory - whilst your earnestness for your cause does you credit, you need to understand why so many of us greybeards shudder and feel sick at the prospect of another Tory government. I lived in the middle of the Yorkshire coalfield during the '80s and witnessed the casual brutality of the way the dispute was handled. Thatcher was fortunate in her choice of enemies - Scargill was a vainglorious leader of the NUM, and probably deserved his defeat, although his members assuredly did not. The ruination wrought is still visible in the area today - towns full of workless young people, many of whom will never be employable because of their drug and alcohol abuse, and the pervading air of poverty and hopelessness. How could I not want to dance on Thatcher's grave, and why would I not vote in any way that keeps her like from the levers of power?
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#228: Deanthetory -
"I agree what we need is manufacturing work for the masses- that is what is lacking. It was more than just an easy way of proving employment- it was an aspect of Scottish working class cutlure and pride.
We need the return of the skilled labourer, the manufacturuing industry- and this must be a long term economic strategy- vital to rebalance an economy all too reliant on financial sector growth [and abuse]."
Tell me, how is it back there in 1887? Please feel free to accept my invitation to join the world in 2009!
Heavy (Mass) secondary manufacturing industry in the UK (Not just Scotland) is either going or gone for good and nothing - no policy, no fine words, nothing - will change that.
Market economics dictate that manufacturing will move to where the resources are cheapest - which isn't going to be Scotland, or the UK, (Or Western Europe, necessarily) because we insist on, y'know, trying to educate our children rather than forcing them to work in sweat shops and we pay workers a (supposedly) living wage.
Your fond hopes for the mass return of cloth capped workers, tugging their forelocks to you as you ride by in your brougham, isn't coming to pass and, frankly, we should be grateful for that.
What Scotland needs - and what the "masses", as you so condescendingly (again) dismiss them need are two interlinked things.
Scotland needs investment (Inwards from the UK and from abroad) to develop the industries that we can do better than anyone else, that aren't reliant on a supply of cheap labour but instead draw on our unique human and natural resources - industries like software; media and the creative arts; whisky; renewable (And non-renewable) energy; forestry; textiles; aquaculture; specialist, high-end manufacturing (e.g. for the motor industry); medicine and pharmaceuticals; and construction.
What Scottish workers need is the skills (And, to an extent, the aspiration) to access these sectors. Particularly: Scottish workers need better language skills so that we can reduce employment by exporting expertise again; they need better IT skills and they need better advice from JobCentres and careers professionals to help them find work.
You can't magic a manufacturing sector up out of nothing; you can, on the other hand, with careful nurturing, grow Scotland's multi-industrial base by focusing on what we do well and developing that to ensure we do more of it and better.
Scotland does not need "manufacturing work for the masses" - irrespective of your desire to lord it, as a Tory toff over the workers - Scotland's workers deserve more and are capable of more than that implies. This is the twenty-first, not the nineteenth century, after all. A return to heavy, single-industry manufacturing will a) Be unsustainable as the industry couldn't survive in Scotland in today's markets and b) Still be at the mercy of the next economic downturn, the next bust.
What Scotland needs is intelligent expansion of a joined-up, multi-sector industrial base; that will be resilient in the face of future economic uncertainty, that will allow us to grow and develop our European markets and, most importantly, will see an end to the exploitative labour market of the "masses" and instead will allow us to flourish collectively as a nation of skilled individuals.
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249. Bandages_For_Konjic
Well said! (and northhighlander's similar sentiments too).
How long is it going to take for people to get it into their heads.
One of our biggest failures is not capitalising quickly enough on our relatively well-educated population, to develop an agile networked ecology of high value traditional and modern innovative businesses.
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Well, I am going to post one more time about the Baroness, because I want to say that I am SURE that had she done anything wrong--which of course she didn't--OF COURSE further charges would have been brought against her because public officials NEVER engage in a cover-up.
WE ALL KNOW THAT!
The fact that no further charges have been brought against her is TOTAL proof of lack of wrong-doing. Saying otherwise is nothing but Defamation.
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#249. Well said.
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# 249 Bandages_For_Konjic
I don't disagree with anything that you have said and I assume that Dean knows this, at least I hope he does. Only through educating the people for the jobs of the future will there be a return to possible full employment, although I am a bit sceptical that this may happen and we may have to write off a section of the population as being unemployable due to there not being enough work. I don't want this to happen but I honestly can't see the way out of this. We also know that this is never going to happen under the control of the UK government and the only hope we have is independence where we can decide for ourselves what the priorities are for our people.
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# 251 JRMacClure
I'm confused here. Is there further investigations going on at present or is there not?
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254. gedguy2
"I'm confused here. Is there further investigations going on at present or is there not?"
How would we know? HMRC, the police etc. would not comment even if there was an investigation.
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Well, well, that's scotland put in its place...again, and wales and ireland for that matter. They just can't help themselves can they. Sky and BBC are beside themselves! The three party leaders have agreed in principle to a T.V. debate.
Am I in a strange alien world, last time I voted there were about 16 candidate?
Albamac. Artistic poem. Truth is sometimes ugly but healthy to confront, which is why I was compelled to read it thgough to the very end.
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Alex Salmond isn't the narrow nationalist.Ms Goldie is.A narrow British Nationalist who,like all the other many narrow nationalists in the Labour and Tory parties,labours under the sad delusion that Britain remains a world power.
Such people believe in maintaining Trident(against the wishes of the Scottish people)in order to preserve the illusion of world power status.They believe in maintaining and avoiding serious reform of a hierarchically obsessed monarchy.They think that only Westminster/Whitehall should be involved in foreign policy decisions(for instance,Ed Milliband and Jim Murphy's disgraceful attempts to stop the Scottish Government from promoting it's grounbreaking climate legislation internationally).They are at their most nationalistic when it comes to the EU.Their failure to engage in a more positive way with the European project has fostered the growth of their fellow narrow British Nationalists in UKIP,the BNP and the English Democrats.
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#258 - I've now heard Tavish Scott and Annabel Goldie criticise Alex Salmond and the SNP being obsessed with nationalism. Is this not a statement of the bleeding obvious? The clue is in the name.
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Salmond has the right to be in the TV debate. When the other three start to discuss the possible break up of the UK (and they will), the SNP voice should be heard. Its called 'the right of reply', a basic premise of a democratic system of government. It would be very convenient for Brown, Cameron and Clegg to spout forth about these matters without truthful interjection.
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259. At 9:20pm on 07 Oct 2009, hamish42
Not only salmond Hamish and not only because of the possibility of a break up. But anyone who is contesting the seat for westminster and for that very simple reason alone. Anything less is dicatating.
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"opportunity for Mr Salmond to object that the Tories would be governing Scotland with perhaps only a few seats north of the Border"
Could the same not be said of England? Where policies such as top-up fees are voted on by Scottish Ministers, but English Ministers have no say on fees in Scotland?
I know this is not the right place to be mentioning the south of the Border, but until the BBC stops its discrimination against England - plenty of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish blogs, but no English - there is nowhere for those of us unfortunate enough to still be paying for our university fees and prescriptions, for example, to air our opinions.
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