'OK pal, outside, now'
Iain Gray was granted a fifth question at Holyrood today by a benevolent presiding officer.
Bet Mr Gray wishes now that he'd stuck at four.
In response to that bonus inquisition, Mr Salmond noted drolly that he had faced three Labour leaders in the chamber and, given today's performance, might be on course to cope with a fourth.
The extra question had been added because PO ALex Fergusson felt the first minister was posing challenges to his Labour opponent - instead of the other way round.
In classic fashion, Mr Salmond deployed the extra exchange to launch the sharpest attack of all.
Mr Gray's questions concerned the issue of the FM paying council tax upon Bute House, his official residence in Edinburgh.
It started well with the Labour leader reminding the chamber of a previous SNP attack upon erstwhile FMs for failing to stump up council tax on the Adam-designed mansion, conveyed to the National Trust by the Marquess of Bute.
Public debate
Why hadn't the SNP kept its promise? Alex Salmond then read out a substantial list of reasons laid down by officials - and noted the Scottish government paid 10 times more in business rates.
Mr Gray then diverted into other issues: London expenses for the FM and a repeated challenge to a public debate.
During the latter exchange, Mr Gray gestured with his arms in a fashion which seemed to say: "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough."
Or, in demotic parlance, "OK, pal, ootside".
It was vigorous stuff - but Mr Salmond seemed notably unflustered. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Then came that fifth question.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~20~RS~)
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Online Ed Here,
Oil propaganda report alert !!
'Easy' oil has been extracted apparently, whatever that means. Stand back for the certain headlines from every single news outlet in Scotland.
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Labour is a disgrace.
At the pavillion they have lined up jesters -bendy wendy, and the gray guy, in the comedy tent Lord Foulkes accuses Sir Richard Dannatt of secretly working for the tories all along....
oh please please please call the election and lets see the SNP and Tories wipe the Labour comedy crew away..please!!
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Online Ed Here,
Gray blunders again by placing council tax back in the shop window. Labour have no alternative, too busy carping at the SNP freeze even when Labour councils in London are about to adopt the very same policy.
Can someone remind Gray, Murphy and Purcell that two year old newspaper headlines really aren't a substitute for very real argument and policy.
Perhaps Gray might like to have a look at Murphy's expenses before casting such aspersions.
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Brian, I don't understand your slavish adulation of the First Minister. Far from him being "unflustered" Salmond was on the ropes today and noticeably uncomfortable because of his utter hypocrisy on council tax avoidance.
It was no surprise to hear Nationalist journalist Campbell Gunn singing Salmond's praises afterwards, but I'm surprised at you.
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Online Ed Here
While we're waiting for the blog to fill up it's worth mentioning that the managing director of Glasgow Airport, Amanda McMillan, has stepped into the very contrived 'row' between Steven Purcell and those 'Glasgow haters' [grow up Stephen] known as the SNP.
The confused non atory is going no-where, Macmillan can hardly be described as lacking interest in this issue. However it is interesting [nothing more than that of course] to note that Amanda McMillan's former employer was one Diageo plc.
Mere coincidence of course and I'm sure that all contact with her former colleagues has long since ceased.
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The fifth question being why is Alex Salmond refusing to take part in a St. Andrew's Day debate with Iain Gray. Why indeed?
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Online Ed Here
One more day to go in the Newsnet Scotland 'Salmond Leaders Debate' poll.
Have a look at the results thus far here.
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3. At 1:15pm on 08 Oct 2009, U14094468
"Perhaps Gray might like to have a look at Murphy's expenses before casting such aspersions."
Here is Murphy's expenses claims:
2007-08: total expenses claims for this period - £162,542
Of which was second homes allowance - £22,801
Champagne socialist me thinks..
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yes Brian, "then came the 5th question" and once again "the leader"of the opposition was found wanting ,no one had written it for him!
For the Scottish Parliament to work at it's best there MUST be an effective and useful opposition! sadly in the past 2 years there hasn't been one,which is Scotland's loss
Each of the three main opposition party's have changed their personnel and the front bench jobs that they do, some had no choice, some did, but no matter, they have all still failed miserably!
that is now twice that Mr Gray has tried to play the thug ,if this is how the Scottish Labour party works that's their problem, it certainly doesn't impress the general public and I certainly don't expect any elected public servant to act like this, as well as the fact that Mr Gray just doesn't look the part!!!
Sid
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Mr Gray then diverted into other issues: London expenses for the FM and a repeated challenge to a public debate.
There's a reason why Alex Salmond should not get into a public debate with Iain Gray at this time and it is the same reason why he should not get into a public debate with Annabel Goldie.
Neither Iain Gray nor Annabel Goldie are party leaders. The fiction that there is a "Scottish Labour Party" has been fairly effectively demolished in the media but there still exists the idea that there is a "Scottish Conservative Party" though both are as fictional as the "Scottish Liberal-Democrats".
Go to the Electoral Commission register of political parties and try and find them and you won't.
The names are simply registered party descriptions with exactly the same status as the SNP's registered party description of, "Alex Salmond For First Minister". There was such a fuss made over the use of that description on the ballot paper in 2007 that the unionists got hoist by their own petard when it resulted in all registered party descriptions being banned which is the reason that the descriptions "Scottish Conservative Party", "Scottish Labour Party" and "Scottish Liberal-Democrats" were banned from the Euro ballot paper.
If Alex Salmond agrees to debate with Goldie, Scott or Gray before the proposed party leaders' TV debate then it will be used as a precedent to lock him out of the party leaders' debate and relegate him to an appearance with the Lib-Dem and Conservative regional managers and the Labour office manager in a sub-debate broadcast in Scotland as a sop to impartiality.
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Can anyone enlighten me as to what that 5th question actually was, and why Mr Gray will regret it? It's not clear from the blog...thanks.
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The question about Bute house seems like nit-picking of the worst kind considering the number of real challenges that Scotland has at the present time. Comared to MPs expenses and Foulkes cost to the budget by asking continual questions to try to get at the SNP.
Gray seems to be on a slippery slope of his own making
By the way, the Sunday Post headline about 'hypocrisy' didn't belong to the Sunday Post. It was just reiterating what some Labour Party apparatchnik said.
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6. At 1:28pm on 08 Oct 2009,
How thick do you think the labour party thinks we are?
Ian gray courageously asking the First Minister of Scotland to debate on what is probably about the most important official scottish day of the year. Oh , yeah am sure the FM will be twiddling his thumbs that day.
4. At 1:24pm on 08 Oct 2009, simon7-0
Can't really comment apart from saying that I am surprised at your observations and if you are correct, disappointed. How would you cope with all thon twisted bitterness though.
2. At 1:15pm on 08 Oct 2009, deanthetory
Keep your pants on dean, you're lot are no better. At the moment I am in disgust at them. A bad evil narrow minded extremist am I?
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Iain Gray was granted a fifth question at Holyrood today by a benevolent presiding officer.
Bet Mr Gray wishes now that he'd stuck at four.
I bet Mr Gray wishes he'd stuck at none.
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14. At 2:29pm on 08 Oct 2009, Phil_Anthropponent
"A bad evil narrow minded extremist am I?"
Your a nationalist. Nothing wrong with that, but do not expect the Unionist party to just accept that, we shall campaign against you- dont be so surprised.
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as somone who has watched the First ministers question time regularly i have yet to hear snp spoksperson give an answer to a question posed by any other party all they do is blame british govenment or the last scotish administration. The whole process is a farce how many of the thousand new policepersons have they in place? how many clasrooms are there that contain 18 Pupils where are the free prescriptions, in dundee we still have the tax on the ill parking charges at Ninewells.
i have also noticed that when he gets caught out or pressed on a question he shouts and rotates like an out of control robot blaming someone else and the clapping like seals by all is basicly embarrassing. they are not suposed to be their as entertainers they are supposed to be running the country. as for anyone avioding taxes or abusing the system two wrongs do not make it right.
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Poor Iain Gray. It must have sounded so good when he rehearsed it before the mirror in his bedroom. He's like a talent show contestant whose self-belief exceeds his ability by an X-Factor of several million. At least the deluded souls who audition for these shows only get ritually humiliated once. Iain Gray has to go through it every week.
Brian could save himself a lot of time and effort by simply reporting Gray's future performances with the acronym PIGFACE. Poor Iain Gray Failed, As Country Expected.
In other news, there was a small advance for Gaelic today. It has been announced that Scots can now use the language in communications with EU bodies, and Scottish ministers now have the right to use the language in meetings with their EU counterparts. This gives Gaelic the same EU status as Welsh, and a similar status to Catalan, Basque and Galician. None of these languages are official languages of the EU, but they now have a halfway house status as co-official languages.
The Daily Telegraph report on the story consistently refers to Gaelic as a dialect. Perhaps the Telegraph sticks with the traditional definition a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Presumably once Scotland becomes independent the Telegraph will decide that Gaelic is a language after all.
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#4 Simon7-0; "It was no surprise to hear Nationalist journalist Campbell Gunn singing Salmond's praises afterwards, but I'm surprised at you.
"
...Yeah well, I guess times they are a changin' Your Labour chums had better get used to being treated a little less favourably by the media, as they have kinda guessed that you are going to lose the next election by a mile and they don't like being associated with losers.
...As for "Salmond being on the ropes!" HaHaaaaaha! *:O)
I would happily go down the bookies and bet on Scotland becoming independent before ever seeing one of the current opposition ever having Salmond on the ropes!!!
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LOL at #15
*;o)
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Brian,
I am surprised that there is not mention in your blog of the fact that the Glasgow NE by-election has finally had its date set.
#11 Dougthedug Wholly agree. But I would point out that this is the norm for northern Ireland, where none of the party leaders have ever been on a nationwide debate (it is also the case that all the mainland british parties have no elected representation there). It is just more british establishment arrogance. If there was to be a nationwide debate about NI issues, who would you expect to represent the mainland parties? The leaders? or the NI spokesman?
There should not be a debate on any issue (eg foreign policy, defense, broadcasting) that affects Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish people without representation of all the major parties in those states. At a minimum that would be 7 or 9 party leaders. At that point I suspect that UKIP would want to get involved, and the BNP, and the English democrats. I suspect that this is why AS will be ignored by the broadcasters. From a "british" point of view, then what the media have suggested makes sense. It is galling but until we are no longer dominated by our much larger neighbour, then we will have to put up with this sort of cultural arrogance.
Highlighting that the leaders debate (as envisaged) has no real relevance outside England will be a good start (and I suspect is AS's main aim). If only we had our own broadcast media that had the balls to do more than just rebroadcast the "national" network feed, and was not wholly inadequate in its political coverage.
The best I can hope for is a series of party leader debates, each focused on specific topics. The ones on devolved matters will have 3 (or more (UKIP etc.) debaters, but the ones on reserved matters should have the UK party leaders as well as PC and SNP party leaders. At the risk of sounding culturally arrogant myself, I do not see the point in having NI parties in these debates, as the NI broadcast media would be better organising their own debates, as there is no overlap in the political parties with the mainland.
John
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"It wouldn't affect members of the armed forces or those on multiple-year deals. His shadow, George Osborne, signalled a freeze for all in 2011 - except those earning less than £18,000 and military personnel serving in Afghanistan."
I take it the tories are intent on the war too.
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16. At 2:57pm on 08 Oct 2009, deanthetory wrote:
14. At 2:29pm on 08 Oct 2009, Phil_Anthropponent
"A bad evil narrow minded extremist am I?"
Your a nationalist. Nothing wrong with that, but do not expect the Unionist party to just accept that, we shall campaign against you- dont be so surprised."
I say again. A bad evil narrow minded extremist am I?
No. I'll answer for you. The big CONs are the evil, extreme, narrow minded threats.
"We shall (oh you shall shall you) campaign against you"
We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall never surrender..."
Can't imagine actually trying to convert someone on the basis of what they belive in is evil, narrow minded and an extreme threat. How can you look decent people in the eye and actually defend this kind of intimidation. Says much about what you think of your self and your fellow man.
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17. luckydasterly
"as somone who has watched the First ministers question time regularly i have yet to hear snp spoksperson give an answer to a question posed by any other party all they do is blame british govenment or the last scotish administration. The whole process is a farce how many of the thousand new policepersons have they in place? how many clasrooms are there that contain 18 Pupils where are the free prescriptions, in dundee we still have the tax on the ill parking charges at Ninewells."
First get new batteries for hearing aid.
Second 1000 NEW police was passed awhile back. (see optician)
Thitd In a Broon recession unachievable and loger term is it advisable.
Fourth Ever heard of PFI building of Hospitals have screwed the punter for maximum profit (Unionist policy profit for the few at the punters expense)
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I have to admit it.
Wee Eck may have a contorted view of reality and of what's best for Scotland, but he's excellent at skirmishing and never sidesteps an altercation opportunity.
Not the sort of guy you'd want to meet on a dark winter's night, or any other night come to think of it.
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Here's the podcast of today's 'First Minister's Questions' with the notorious 'Question 5"
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/This-Week/Broadcast/Podcast/FMQs
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1. U14094468
Energy return on investment (EROI)
Ed at Tipiglen had a good animation on this.
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I see a cat-pigeon interface moment (and another blog topic).
It appears that the Lib-Dems are going to review their unliberal undemocratic stance on an independance referendum (see politic page of this site).
Guessing that the smar money is now on a multi option referendum in 2010.
John
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Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Poor Mr. Gray. Yes, I have a feeling he MUCH regretted that fifth question. Heck, he probably regretted getting out of bed in the morning. The worst is that Alex Salmond always gives the appearance of being so genial and good-natured in his verbal bludgeoning. Ouch!
It would be fun to see him on a podium with Gordon Brown and David Cameron. I do hope the other two don't wriggle out of it. (They will but one can hope)
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Simon Pia is Gray's political adviser.
Simon Pia is a Hibs supporter.
7-0 is an iconic Hibs result.
Is "simon7-0" Simon Pia?
If not he certainly sounds like him....
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#28. How many are in this committee who are looking at it and what would be the process for the party reversing itself? Anyone know anything about it? Having a referendum approved would send a few shock waves.
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21. John__
If I remember correctly, the rules of the blog change when there is an election on, that may explain the absence of a blog on the subject.
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Yee haaa!
Canny wait tae get hame'n'watch yon grey wee slave gettin a doin!
Salmond has mellowed I think, but when his sarcastic self let's go god help ye.
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28. John__
Does this make Scott's leadership in doubt because of his previous rhetoric that it was not the right time, more like it was a one man policy with no consultancy.
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I've just listened to the podcast. I almost feel sorry for Iain Grey - he really walked onto that last punch. I assume that at present Mr Grey is on a hospital bed deep in the bowels of the parliament as a worried aide holds a hand in front of him and asks him how many fingers he is holding up. Grey will be blearily shaking his head, and spitting blood and teeth into a bucket.
Hasn't the League against Cruel Sports anything to say about this?
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I cant wait to see this. Gray give extra rope to hang himself (politically).
Lib dems on the verge of a U-turn as reported on this website.
They pair have given the BBC some comedy classics to enjoy on this service. Maybe the BBC aren't all that bad!!
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So that's it then, the kind Viking is doing his massive u-turn, kicking and screaming and hey presto we get the referendum. You couldn't make it up - the level of consistency and lack of intellectual rigour amongst the so-called Unionost parties is quite simply shocking. As Wendy used to say, bring it on, can't wait myself.
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#28 John__
Apparently this is the article:
Lib Dems mount referendum review.
So the LibDems have got their knickers in a twist. Like you say it looks like a U turn coming up.
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Pre-1997 Tony Blair was described as a man walking across a polished slippery floor carrying a Ming vase, such was the expectation and burden on the prospect of a Labour win. Gray can best be described as a man walking across a sticky supermarket floor, probably in the fizzy pop aisle, carrying a wilted mackerel, and his shoes are squeaking as he walks, and he winces with every squeak.
There's almost something Kafka-esque about Gray, and then again, being relegated to Jim Murphy's underling would certainly be something akin to Kafka-esque, I suppose. It has got the stage where no one really cares anymore, no one really listens, because it's the same old routine again, and again. Labour in Holyrood try to maintain the pretence that they are the party of competent managerialism and yet like to throw in the odd-word about social justice. They construct child-drawings and call them blueprints, they blow bubbles and call them a fleet of space-ships, we don't care, we don't listen. I think their fantasy about the union being revealed as a great lie, a great myth, knocked them almost out, but it looks as if they'll stagger on to see the final moments of their myth of union being shown as finally false and underhanded.
On a lighter note, it looks as if the Lib Dems may just shift and people in Scotland will get to debate the merits of an independent multi-party social democratic Scotland in contrast to Labour's myth of union. Good times ahead, and good on you Lib Dems, I knew you had it in you.
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Might want to move along to Brian's new blog entry which DID make me choke on my coffee. Actually, good blog in spite of my requisite sarcasm. ;-)
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Greetings from Raleigh, North Carolina. Well, I have to say I was disappointed when wee Wendy went on her way. Thursdays just weren't the same and I thought Iain Gray might actually have blossomed (?) into a half-way decent parliamentary party leader. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Today's fifth question was almost as bad as Wendy's "I have no more questions."
Contrast that with the dignified exchange between Alex Salmond and Annabel Goldie. It might actually achieve something. Isn't that the point of FMQ's?
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Sorry, didn't see the new thread, left replies for Aikenheed, cynicalHighlander, and U14153624, at 331 to 334 on previous thread.
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Brian
Given the issues we have had over the last year with Politicians and how they pay their way, and given Mr Salmond is so keen to express how different, how much more upstanding he is, he should have ensured the actions matched the rhetoric.
Especially since the SNP made such a noise about this when Jack McConnell lived there. Alex and his colleagues used this to discredit Jack McConnell.
Alec could have made good on his word today, buy simply apologising and paying up. Gordon Brown pays council tax on No.10 although business rates are also paid on the property.
There is nothing wrong with a politician admitting a mistake, far from being wrong it would have done him good.
Iain Gray is right to attack on this, this is a clear example of double standards of the worst kind.
Somethings never change no matter who is in power. Do as I say, not as I do.
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43. northhighlander
"Alec could have made good on his word today, buy simply apologising and paying up. Gordon Brown pays council tax on No.10 although business rates are also paid on the property."
Bute house is a listed property where domestic and business, cabinet meetings take place, to separate these two different building uses would involve a great deal of building restructuring. Does one change the infrastructure of a historic building at public expense just so that one can pay a 10th of the business rate.
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Brian,
I can well understand that listening to Mr Gray may have induced drowsiness in you, but I'm surprised you managed to wipe his first question, on freezing Ministerial and MSP salaries, from your consciousness and was probably the reason why Mr Gray was so "on-form" for his subsequent questions. All in all a typically grey Gray performance.
#26 raisethegame
Thanks for the podcast info. I didn't realise it was available in MP3 and will definitely try it next time holyrood.tv forget to put up the video in a timely fashion. The 30m WMV is only about 60Mb, with perfectly watchable video.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#21 John
6 Months without political representation.
The Norwich By-Election was held post haste.
It reeks of fear and loathing. The Glasgow East by-election has Labour commiting all manner of sins to try and keep face.
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Re 44 Cynical Highlander
Well last time I took note No 10 is the place the UK cabinet meets, in much the same way.
Restructuring the building is really a bit extreme don't you think? What about a simple solution, where Alex just pays what the ordinary punter would to the council, lets leave the builders out of this.
That is a pretty pathetic excuse for doing what the SNP so strongly condemned Jack McConnell for doing. Alternatively he could just apologise to Jack for the accusations and admit he and the SNP party was wrong.
Either way by using his usual tactic of bluster, he just debases the office he holds and diminishes respect for all politicians.
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#43 northhighlander
"Iain Gray is right to attack on this, this is a clear example of double standards of the worst kind."
You're going OTT there, but it certainly was Gray's leastworst line of questioning today. Trouble is, it showed how poorly briefed he'd been that Gray was unable to counter any of the FM's statements about what Duff Gordon and his chums claim.
Also, although it may be true that Duff Gordon pays Council Tax on his flat in #10 (do you have a source for that assertion?) but despite getting the flat for free along with Chequers, he still claimed £17,073 as a "second" home allowance last time he was able to, despite having exactly one home, to the best of my knowledge, while the FM would be able to claim council tax and water charges under Holyrood's Members Expenses Scheme.
Hardly "double standards", but I'd agree that the FM's original criticisms of previous FMs should have been better researched and the present situation made absolutely clear. For all we know, he may well have put out a press release clarifying the situation, but fat chance of that being reported responsibly in the North British media.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
northhighlander:
#47.
"Restructuring the building is really a bit extreme don't you think? What about a simple solution, where Alex just pays what the ordinary punter would to the council, lets leave the builders out of this.
That is a pretty pathetic excuse for doing what the SNP so strongly condemned Jack McConnell for doing. Alternatively he could just apologise to Jack for the accusations and admit he and the SNP party was wrong."
You are going into full attack mode or a none issue. I certainly do not see why either, perhaps the Scottish National Party made a mistake as opposition and now realises the full situation? Should they apologise? No, it was their purpose as opposition but should Scottish Labour continue to attack? No! Jack didn't change so I see no reason why Alex should now.
If you haven't noticed a we are in a recession which has crippled the economy. Have you something else to talk about or shall you lead the way for Scotland by being critical of Salmonds expences?
Scottish Labour and everyone else who follows their attacks are embarressing. There are more important issues, but why would Scottish Labour seek to create an issue out of nothing? It may have something to do with British Labour carrying out their crusade of destroying everything and everyone - Gordon Brown: "There's still time!"
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Re 48
The contents of this particular blog are pretty favourable to the First Minister, still you claim media bias... Don't think the opposition would see it that way.
However my main point is why not just say sorry, got that completely wrong.
I listened to Fiona Hyslop on Radio Scotland tonight, being questioned on the report published toady that suggests that despite spending significantly more per head on education in Scotland we are seeing no better results and are possibly slipping behind the rest of the UK.
Instead of saying, interesting we will take a look at the report and respond, she rubbished the report and the author without offering a single shred of substantive argument. So did the guy from the council and the EIS. A cosy little cabal. One that will never change the world of education with such an attitude.
Why do we have politicians / public servants that can never look beyond narrow party interests. I don't only include SNP here, none of the rest are any different.
If we are to learn new ways of achieving more for less in the public sector this type of analysis may offer a way forward. Alternatively it may not. But one could also ask why the government and council hadn't sussed this out themselves before an independent organisation did.
We really need some fresh ideas and thinking, it is sorely lacking. An open mind, a more questioning attitude would be a start.
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Re 50 Thomas
It is usually the job of government to suggest ways out of the recession. We have seen little in the way of fresh hinking form any party in Scotland.
However there is a serious point here. Alex makes a big thing about how different he is from other politicians and how the SNP are different in the way they operate.
I am merely pointing out that this is a clear example of the rhetoric and actions being somewhat adrift.
I also disagree strongly with your assertion that it is the job of the opposition to attack the government with incorrect accusations. I assume you didn't really mean what you said. This is the type of behaviour that turns voters away from politics.
If we are to improve standards in Scotland the FM is certainly not leading the way on this issue.
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47. northhighlander
As Brownedov has pointed (far more eloquently than I ever could) comparing apples and pears is not what this is about its purely a grudge that Iain Gray (not being First Minister) has which does him no good or anyone else in Scotland.
I know you mistrust ALL politicians no matter of their respective colour as you believe they are all the same. That is not true for them all and it is only now since devolution that the minority truth sayers are actually coming to the fore rather than be buried under the majority who are only interested in their own status.
I could go on but as you have no faith in any politician especially the SNP maybe the problem lies elsewhere.
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12% Gray flounders again !
Gasping for a thought !
Grasping for a question !
Why did the Presiding Officer allow an MSP,such inflicted pain ?
It was a head in the hands moment.Ground please open up !
If grey Gray can't think up 4 questions,
how would he debate for longer than 5 mins.
REMEMBER THE GRAY/MURPHY DOUBLE ACT AT BOURNEMOUTH ?
Those dull monologues,droning on and on for 10 mins !
St Andrew's Day debates,no thankyou !
re-Murphy's Expenses.As he lives in posh Glasgow,that will
be alright then !Does Murphy claim any Council Tax on expenses ?
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northhighlander:
#52.
"It is usually the job of government to suggest ways out of the recession. We have seen little in the way of fresh hinking form any party in Scotland."
On a UK level, yes. It is usually, but on a Scottish level the Governments is a minority administration. Therefore, other groups have opportunites to bring forward idea and pressure which is not possible in London.
"I also disagree strongly with your assertion that it is the job of the opposition to attack the government with incorrect accusations. I assume you didn't really mean what you said. This is the type of behaviour that turns voters away from politics."
Based on my opinion I feel that the SNP believed their was an issue to be raised concerning council tax for Bute House. Were they wrong? I don't believe so. The SNP raised an issue to public attention. It didn't change though, so clearly there was no reason to change. The SNP are the Government and maybe understand the situation more personally.
I believe the attacks are over the top. It's fine to point out that Alex Salmond does not pay council tax but it should be a poke at the ribs, perhaps from a newspaper but not something I expect during First Minister's Question Time. Surely there is more to question the Government on?
Yes Alex Salmond may not be improving the image of politics. However I do not believe Salmond is the sole person to blame. The standard of polititions is certainly not high, but I believe it is culture instead of down to their ability.
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#51 northhighlander
"The contents of this particular blog are pretty favourable to the First Minister, still you claim media bias... Don't think the opposition would see it that way."
You're right about this particular blog and probably also about how the Tweedles view it, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of BBC Scotland's output on this website and on Newsnight Scotland and the Politics Show - the only two programmes I get to see very often. Are you suggesting that the dead tree press are balanced or fair?
"However my main point is why not just say sorry, got that completely wrong."
We're in agreement there. Properly done, it would have silenced Gray completely. But while Brian would have reported it fairly I doubt any other media would have done so. Equally, an apology for PPP/PFI from Gray would at least have caused the FM to blink.
"Why do we have politicians / public servants that can never look beyond narrow party interests. I don't only include SNP here, none of the rest are any different."
I agree that standards in that area are low, but do believe that some are less awful than others.
Time to move on, I think.
#53 cynicalHighlander
Thanks.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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51. At 8:18pm on 08 Oct 2009, northhighlander
If you had watched Newsnight Scotland last night you would have seen why Fiona Hyslop was browned off. Firstly the report was based on data collected before the SNP came to power. Also, the economist from Glasgow admitted that there was very little research data on which to conclude anything concrete and the Edinburgh economist stated that the comparison of cost per pupil was also on shakey ground because they didn't know how each figure was arrived at. The only thing they could comment on was the apparently large difference between the smallest and the largest cost per pupil. They thought that must be significant but they couldn't say why!
It is very easy for the media to put a particular slant on things without defining the limits of validity, or, as I suspect they just ignore them for their own devious reasons.
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Oh dear! Oh dear!
Just watched FMQ's
Mr Gray V FM NO CONTEST.
Should have contained a health warning to the unsuspecting
I have no love of the Labour Party but I cringed to my toes -jaw dropped- -eyes clenched as Alex built up to and finally despatched the puffed up Gray. Talk about popping a balloon!
It was as comprehensive and vicious a mugging as I have seen. OUCH!
FM's contempt for the opposition was correct Lab were completely off topic down below community council level. The country is in a real mess.
Why cant Labour raise their game? Truth is they cant.
Labour are a busted flush, my father will be turning in his grave at a once proud party filled with such incompetent third rated stooges.
Roll on a chance to kick Lab out at the election.
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What is particularly interesting is that Jim Murphy has "flipped" his main residence back to Scotland for a very large sum of money on the grounds that he is in Scotland nearly all the time yet he took £5,200 in London subsitence allowance at the same time ie every penny available thouigh he is rarely in London and he even took it when he was in China.
(Alex Salmond took all of £800 in the same allowance as we all hear all the time).
It's gone too quiet on the fiddling front. I hope the grasping greed of many of our elected leaders makes a reappearance before the election. In particulkar i would like Alistair Darling to explain why he "flipped" his house four times (apart from greed, thas tis)
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re 57
I didn't watch newsnight, I wasn't in any way saying the report was right or wrong.
I was pointing out that in the current climate when we need to make sure every pound we spend is spent wisely, it was surprising that she didn't say anything positive about even looking at the issue. She just rubbished the whole thing.
The guy from the council and the One from EIS said almost exactly the same things.
We need to be looking at all areas so we spend our money wisely. It doesn't appear Ms Hyslop or any others interviewed were particularly keen to look at how we perform.
I think the attitude is very very wrong. We should look at the issues and see if there is any merit before rubbishing the whole thing.
We need new ideas, new ways of looking at things.
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I know I promised I'd move on, but anyone still looking at this thread should definitely read Magnus Linklater's Holyrood Sketch from the Thunderer.
He muses that it "would add greatly to the sum of human knowledge, not to say enjoyment" to eavesdrop on the briefing sessions prior to FMQs and that we "would learn which lines of attack were discarded and why others were thought worthy of pursuit". This is followed up by some suggestions on how the NuLab briefing may have proceeded and excellent analysis of the results.
He's no friend of either SNP or NuLab, of course, but can certainly identify a failing "leader" when he sees one.
I do, personally, still rather agree with northhighlander that an initial, brief apology re previous FMs would have made Gray's position even more hopeless. Could the FM be being just a little coy at destroying Gray completely just in case NuLab find a more effective replacement?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Yes Brian has been over protective of Mr Gray read Linklater's piece.
As for a televised debate, I fera Iain Gray is not entitled nor capable of such a debate. It should also be undertaken only before a Svopttish election not a GE where, as I understand it, it is a leadership debate.
Meanwhile I look forward to Mr Gray's dream for Scotland which he has kept secret since he took on the job.
Both Labour leaders are now finished and they are now about to be out politicked by other oppositions North and Sout.
Captain Manwairing has spotted a real weakness in the SLAB plan for Holyrood.
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#62 thatweec
"Meanwhile I look forward to Mr Gray's dream for Scotland which he has kept secret since he took on the job."
Dream on. Judging by the hangdog look on his face as he goes through the motions of asking questions I suspect he has only nightmares.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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17. luckydasterly
"how many of the thousand new policepersons have they in place?"
All of them. Check your facts.
"how many clasrooms are there that contain 18 Pupils"
Did you seriously imagine that was going to happen overnight? Get real!
"where are the free prescriptions"
Not due until next year. Check your facts.
"in dundee we still have the tax on the ill parking charges at Ninewells."
Because the British Labour Party handed it to the private sector. Check your facts.
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16. deanthetory
"
Your a nationalist. Nothing wrong with that..."
So you reject your Auntie Bella's vitriolic attack on people who vote SNP?
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43. northhighlander
"Alec could have made good on his word today, buy simply apologising and paying up. Gordon Brown pays council tax on No.10 although business rates are also paid on the property. "
At 10 Downing Street the private accommodations are completely separate. It is not comparable with Bute House.
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47. northhighlander
"What about a simple solution, where Alex just pays what the ordinary punter would to the council, lets leave the builders out of this. "
How can he pay council tax on a residence which does not exist? There is no separate residence within Bute House. How difficult is that to understand?
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51. northhighlander
"However my main point is why not just say sorry, got that completely wrong."
You really are very naïve. Those of us who are more aware of the massive media bias against the SNP and Alex Salmond will easily be able to imagine the way such an apology would be represented. Anybody want to guess what the headline in The Sowhatsman would be?
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We are due another weekend of Glen Campbell Labour doctrine, I wonder if he will point out the superority of Cameron vs Brown and the domination of Salmond over Gray.
We would be better wi' Glan Michael doing the political commentary I fear.
(We may even get some USA / al Magrahi from the EBC man)
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#68
My money is on Iain Gray not lasting long past the Glasgow North East by-election and certainly being put down if Labour lose it.
This is very unfair he may be pretty ineffective (that's a generous assessment) but those who pull his strings should take the fall,not him.
I feel the total media blitz against the SNP is beginning to lose much of its effect. It's overkill but can you imagine the position the SNP would be in at the moment in Glasgow for instance if the Daily Record was even half fair.
What is interesting is that as the unionists scrabble the bottom of all the barrells they can find about trying to hit the SNP on every conceivable subject they can drag up and in the process boring much of the polulation sh*tless they have mounted virtually no campaign against the concept of independence.
And the attempt to block a referendum is untenable.
I suspect the opposition in the Scottish Parliament is just plain stupid...though there is significant silences from some of them for some time now.
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I was lucky enough to be in the public gallery for FMQs yesterday for the first time. Labour tried to catch Alex Salmond out three times, and each time it backfired drastically. First Iain Gray with his blown opportunity at a fifth question. As usual, he didn't seem able to go off his pre written lines (the scrapping council tax one by one jibe must have taken his script writers all week to come up with), and had a scowl on his face during the whole debate as if he really did not want to be there.
Richard Baker was up next with his quote on government failure on drugs policy which turned out to be from 2006 when he was in government, and finally Claire Baker getting completely out of her depth and not bothering to check her facts before challenging the First Minister on student finances.
Rather than trying to score points all the time, they would be far better off trying to be constructive like the other opposition parties mainly were.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
In my garden I frequently see blue t*ts, great t*its,coal t*ts and the occasional long tailed t*t.
I suspect my previous post has ended up with the moderators because I described the leaders of Labour in the Scottish Parliament in similar terms comlete with asterix. I was of course describing them as "tots"
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My deleted recent post slightly sanitised
Politics being what it I would be surprised if there are not, sitting silently in the Labour benches, a goodly number of ambitious MSPs happily watching the present team making FOOLS of themselves. After the GE it is virtually certain that Labour will be out and the power of London Labour over its Scottish operation will be much diminished. We may see a real Labour party re-emerging in Scotland from the wreck(pretty doubtful, but the seeds may be there) but what is pretty certain is that what is left (unintentional play on words there) will be in turmoil and probably having a really hard look at itself.
My suspicion however is that the process by which the SNP is steadily replacing Labour in Scotland will continue with renewed vigour.
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Why dont you folks continue the debate on this thread?.
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