Time is running out
Ecstatic applause greeted the opening of Gordon Brown's conference speech as he proclaimed Labour's achievements in office.
It would seem we must add time travel to the list.
Earthbound voters might think the next UK election will involve Labour's search for a fourth consecutive term in power. Not so.
It would, apparently, be "the first Labour Government of the new global age".
This is a novel concept created, of course, by a desire to shed any suggestion that Labour has run out of ideas and ambition.
Mr Brown's argument was that the world had been utterly transformed by the economic crisis.
This merited a renewed effort to curb financial excess while rewarding hard work.
'Focus group-inspired'
Political subtlety and time lapses aside, this was a notably substantive speech: full of policies and rhetoric designed to appeal to middle England/Britain.
Skivers, benefit cheats and city centre drunks? The PM was against them. Pensions?
He'd restore the earning link. Teenage parents? They'd stay in supervised accommodation, losing benefits if they didn't comply.
As one informed observer said, the content was straight out of focus groups, bolstered by an American-style language of fundamental family values.
Given devolution, of course, not all the policies announced apply north of the border. But Mr Brown appeared to base two announcements on Scottish developments.
Firstly, he announced free personal care for those with the highest needs who stay at home.
Secondly, he outlined plans for family intervention projects based on a pilot in Dundee which he has studied.
Tax relief
A further policy could have Scottish implications. The PM said he would reform tax provision for better off parents in order to release money for free childcare for 250,000 two-year-olds.
The cut in tax relief would impact across the whole UK. But it would be up to the Scottish Parliament and Government to decide whether to implement the enhanced childcare.
There would be extra money for Scotland as a consequence of the new investment in England.
On the economy, a new investment corporation, efforts to support business and tax increases "at the very top" - although there's also a hike in National Insurance on the way.
In all, Mr Brown was seeking to contrast his approach with what he characterised as malign, non-interventionist neglect by the Tories.
Again, the calculation is that, if the next UK election is a referendum on recent events, then Labour has had it.
If it can be transformed into a choice between Labour and the Tories - "the change they choose" as Mr Brown put it - then perhaps the outcome may be different.
Either way, in this time zone, the days and weeks are running out.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~22~RS~)
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Well, I hopped over to politicalbetting and the post-speech polls seem to indicate some fairly decent bounce from Brown's speech which I haven't listened to yet.
But honestly this headline did NOT impress:
The BBC heads it with : We're not done yet, insists Brown
We're not DONE yet? Yesh. Did he really say that.
In the US this kind of thing is frequently referred to as the "silly season". No polls between now and probably the end of October have the slightest meaning. Still it makes for interesting reading and discussing but it will be weeks until politics regain what sanity they usually have.
By the by, I saw a lengthy string of promises. How many if any can Labour actually deliver on?
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and he also said at the end "no to independence and separatists"
Now for all that his speech seemed on the face of it like a good thing,it was all hot air.
He has had 12 years or rather his party has to do the things he promised, the man speaks with a forked tongue and if the forced smiles of Straw, Mandy and the wifey who want the top job were forced for a minute longer they would need to contact NHS direct for strained muscles.
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It is to be regretted that the BBC continue to misreport. In Scotland there is little, if anything, to seperate Labour and the Tories. Mr Mandelson, labour's deputy leader,would happily work for the Tories. Showing a commitment and loyalty worthy of a labour politician. Nary a word about this in Scotland.
In Scotland the election is between the SNP and labour,in Wales between Plaid Cymru and labour and in England, according to the polls, it appears to be a race for second place between labour and the liberal democrats. Sadly, no matter what happens in Scotland and Wales, whoever wins in England will form the Westminster government. It was ever thus.
The repeated and calculated failure of the BBC to report these facts can only be construed as being dishonest. It would appear to be a final and feeble attempt to shore up the already crumbled labour party vote.
Happily it appears that this continued misreporting is doomed to failure.
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#2 He would HAVE to say "no to independence and separatists". I mean--if Scotland were independent he'd lose that cushy Whitehall job. ;-)
He IS elected from Scotland, is he not? Independence would be his worst nightmare for a number of reasons, none of which having to do one way or the other with the good of Scotland.
And I'm sure we'll soon hear more about how recession or recovery or a stubbed toe is more important than Scotland's constitutional status.
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By the way, the UK is now talking about JAILING teen mothers? Or are those workhouses? He's kidding, right? Tell me this is a bad joke.
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Seems like you forgot one, Brian, in your: "But Mr Brown appeared to base two announcements on Scottish developments."
According to the Grauniad's Gordon Brown's Labour conference speech in full, Duff Gordon was scheduled to say:
"Britain – the four home nations – each is unique, each with its own great contribution and we will never allow separatists or narrow nationalists in Scotland or in Wales to sever the common bonds that bring our country together as one."
What do you think poor Mr Gray will read in to that promise to ignore the result of any referendum if he doesn't like the outcome, let alone anybody else?
Perhaps we shouldn't worry as so many of NuLab's referendum promises have been broken anyway.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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After Brian's fantasy about Iain Gray's 'intriguing' speech that was no more than an abusive and inappropriate rant I'll take his analysis of Brown's speech with a huge pinch of salt.
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Was that the Tory party conference Brian since labour have had 12 long years to do this, hypocrisy through and through.
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So: Gordon Brown promises to hold a referendum at exactly the same time the SNP Govt. proposed one, "early in the next (Westmonster) Parliament"; so how is Iain Gray going to justify his opposition based on timing!
Gordon Brown is done.
Labour is done.
Today the Fiberal Democrats overtook them in polling for the first time ever in an Ipsos-Mori poll. They have hardly been in inspiring form lately either ... but the fact that Labour are down their with them, and with the economic news for Britain - in comparison with the rest of the developed world - only getting worse daily, Labour's predicament will only deteriorate.
The only choice left to them is to try and "win" the election by appealing to middle england (thereby losing their traditional strongholds as well), or de facto accept defeat and work to maintain a political base to rebuild on.
Looks like Brown just pushed Labour's self-destruct button for me. We already knew he was the last Scottish Prime Minister, question is: will he now be the last Labour Prime Minister too!
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The man is out of his mind, one wonders if their is substance, (no pun intended ) in the story about anti depressents. "He will never allow separatists or narrow nationalists to sever etc " does he have an option ? Much as I'm against the idea of independence, it is not his decision, it is a decision for the people of Scotland and whatever it is we must make it , not him or his failed party. Scotland's version of the Labour party are no longer in power in Scotland and appear to represent the Westminster Labour party, rather than the people of Scotland,
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6. Brownedov
Your links not working Gordon Brown's Labour conference speech in full
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"Britain – the four home nations – each is unique, each with its own great contribution and we will never allow separatists or narrow nationalists in Scotland or in Wales to sever the common bonds that bring our country together as one."
And should we read that to mean no matter what the people vote?
I seem to recall a discussion of tanks on the previous thread. Hmmmm I believe I said I didn't think it would ever happen, but this man does make me wonder.
Does he have any respect for the rights of the people? Any at all?
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#5 JRMacClure
I must admit it does rather sound like Open Prisons but I don't know what the crime is. No doubt Labour will get the bad Baroness to pass yet another law, which will make it a crime to have a baby.
The trouble here in Scotland is we don't do gaol and the mind boggles at how they may have to do community service.
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9. At 6:59pm on 29 Sep 2009, pattymkirkwood wrote:
So: Gordon Brown promises to hold a referendum at exactly the same time the SNP Govt. proposed one, "early in the next (Westmonster) Parliament"; so how is Iain Gray going to justify his opposition based on timing!
Well, poor Iain Gray was apparently not let in on the fact that a Scottish referendum on independence would be ignored. So he has egg on his face all the way around.
No problem with a UK referendum but:
"...we will never allow separatists or narrow nationalists in Scotland or in Wales to sever the common bonds that bring our country together as one."
Huh. I thought it was supposed to be a union of equals. Guess not.
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Is there a difference between Hippocratic Oath and the Hippocratic Oaf!
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So Iain Gray says it's the wrong time to hold a referendum during a recession, and now his boss in London, Gordon Brown, wishes to hold a referendum, albeit on a different issue. Labour have had 12 years in office when they could have implemented electoral reform and it's only now in the last few months of this government they start talking about it.
I think neither Brown or Gray have a leg to stand on any more and the public will see through the fact Labour are again trying to take us for mugs. Today is the day Labour gave up on any last ounce of credibility they ever had.
We'll know who to blame when we are suffering under a Tory government this time next year.
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#7 U14094468
You forget Brian has spent his working lifetime analysing Labour politics as there weren't any others these last 50 years and it mattered if some poor Labour lassie couldn't parrot the latest line from John Smith House, it might mean she was on her way out due to independent thinking. I'd go with his analysis.
What must be really worrying for him is that next year it'll be Torys at Westminster and Wee Eck at Holyrood. Convenient that the Beeb is based in Glasgow but then again it'll be Council Elections in 2012 and the retirement age is going up year by year. I sympathise.
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By all accounts Sarah Brown is a nice woman but I thought her introduction for Brown and the accompanying video were toe-curlingly embarrassing. Talk about paving the way for the grand entrance. Had to grab the sick-bag. Just as a matter of interest, as we are on the point of bankruptcy, where is the money coming from to fund all these promises he made this afternoon. Mind you, as most of them are to come in in the next government, he could have promised anything. Still the audience seemed happy. What a love-in!
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#13 Maybe they're going to make consensual underage sex a crime for females. That would allow jailing underage mothers.
Otherwise, I don't see how you force underage mothers into these... places. I'm sorry. I am just boggled over several aspects of this speech.
99% of these convention speeches are nothing but hot air and that's probably true of this one--but several aspects just knocked the breath right out of me they seem so outrageous--but remember. Ignorant American here.
Maybe saying you'll ignore referendums you don't like and jail underage mothers is quite par for the course out your way.
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My sincere thanks to 'gedguy2' - "Glencampbelly" : Genius !
I think Brian is a bit glencampbelly about anything from the british labour party.
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They changed the world for the worse with the Iraq war, then a follow up with Afghanistan, whats he planning - Iran?
I cannot believe the claptrap we are force fed by the politicians and the media.
I watched the ITN news tonight and was glad I had a handy spew bucket when confronted with Mrs Browns testimony to her phone smashing sweetie.
A stage managed piece , the accolades , the save the world again chunter, the standing ovation.
I see that Mr Robinson has closed comment yet again.
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I consider his use of the term "we will never allow...", very sinister. Does he not understand that it will be the people of Scotland that will decide Scotland's future. Presumably the use of the word 'we' refers to his beloved Nuliebour party - the same party that has completely aquieced over illegal wars, continuing and unquestioning support for warmongering neocons in the USA and the robbery of tax payers by bankers to name but some of the more spectacular failures of a once proud party that stood for the working man.
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#5 JRMacClure & #13 handclapping
There's nothing wrong with offering young single mums, shared accommodation with access to creches, education and work training. I don't know the Scottish figures, but last time I looked it was around 8,000 in England had taken this up.
However Brown is now making it mandatory.
"From now on, all 16 and 17 year-old parents who get support from the taxpayer will be placed in a network of supervised homes".
Don't expect it ever tobe implemented, however. It is simply too stupid. It would entail that the following would be required to be taken from their normal residence and placed in a supervised home, if they received any benefits.
The 17 year old father of a child by an 18+ year old mother (mum and baby live elsewhere)
The 16 year old mother of a child, where the girl's parents want her to stay at home, and they will help with the care
However, Brown says it will happen "from now on" (and presumably throughout the UK). I wonder how many supervised homes there are on Gigha?
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18. Florence0131
"where is the money coming from to fund all these promises he made this afternoon."
Tory cuts!
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#23. At 7:48pm on 29 Sep 2009, oldnat wrote:
#5 JRMacClure & #13 handclapping
There's nothing wrong with offering young single mums, shared accommodation with access to creches, education and work training. I don't know the Scottish figures, but last time I looked it was around 8,000 in England had taken this up.
However Brown is now making it mandatory.
I agree that OFFERING it is a good thing. BUT "PLACING" them is in effect JAILING them. I seriously would contend this involves a breech in ANY concept of human rights not to mention--Good lord. Did ANYONE think this through at ALL?
Is the man out of his... Ok, I won't say it.
I'm just... as close as I get to speechless at some of the concepts (if you can call it that) in this speech.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So many promises to do this and that. A few billion here, a few billion there.
Has nobody told him that the country is bankrupt. The coffers are bare.
Where's the dough coming from?
Taxes would need to go through the roof to pay for all these but I must have missed the mention of that during his speech.
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Brown said "...........no compulsory ID cards for British citizens.". What he is saying is that they will be voluntary which is exactly a no change in policy, except that the conference applauded thinking they had heard a new policy being announced. Dishonest Brown at work again.
"We will never allow...separation" will someone challenge him on how he will achieve this? More dirty tricks to supplement his honest politics?
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Ha. Ok. Sans masked obscenity here is what I said in the above removed post:
I beg your pardon. I misread his comments. I admit--he also wants to jail underage fathers so it's not sexist except that it gives underage fathers DARN GOOD REASON to try to escape responsibility. Why would they be crazy enough to admit such a thing but it's harder for the mothers. Whew. *holds head*
I'm sure it will never go forward but even proposing such draconian measures is just beyond belief--removing young women from their homes to be "placed" in institutions for the crime of becoming pregnant.
Jus assume the obscenity I would use in this regard.
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#25 JRMacClure
See, Brown has been learning from the USA!
The rich and most of the middle class won't have their kids jailed, but he's learned that you can lock up the young and the poor with no problems.
It would have made the insanity of this proposal starrker if I'd said -
The 17 year old husband of an 18+ year old mother (mum and baby live elsewhere)!!
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#25 JR Guido has the same policy emanating from the BNP - "Gulags for Slags policy taken from BNP"
http://order-order.com/2009/09/29/exclusive-browns-gulags-for-slags-policy-taken-from-bnp/
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For those 16 and 17 year olds having perfectly legal sex - being jailed is a heck of a "union" dividend!
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Maintaining such a level of desperation cannot be healthy.
Well, evidently, as it turns out.
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Interestingly when he proclaimed Labour's achievements in office he left a few off the list which I think it's worth reminding people about.
1. Record house price increases.
2. Record household debt
3. Record trade deficit
4. Record public deficit
5. Record collapse in manufacturing
6. Record number of companies sold off to overseas buyers.
7. Record low company birthrate
8. Record stealth taxes.
I'm sure others will come up with more but the point is that as one might expect Brown has been highly selective with his list of achievement and I'm not all surprised because it begs the question as to how exactly the UK can possibly afford his new list of spending promises.
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32. oldnat
Labour applauded that policy. nuff said
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#32 oldnat
No fags, no jobs, no booze and no sex. Anyone tell me where I can get ...
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#31 Aikenheed
Thanks for the link. I knew that Labour was running scared of the BNP in some of their English heartlands, but to be stealing the BNP policies is truly disgusting.
Step forth derek, and support this!
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Online Ed Here
Just had a read through the speech, haven't yet seen Brown deliver it though.
Seeme to have fallen into three distinct categories
1. Choice and change - Perhaps overdid the use of the word 'choice', the change though read like an admission of things that he had got wrong.
2. The Global Crisis - Blamed the bankers and conservatism and actually had the nerve to suggest that under his stewradship the UK was well placed to weather the storm. Another thinly veiled acknowledgement that lack of proper regulation had allowed bankers in the UK to run riot.
3. Steal old Tory clothes - Immigrants, unemployed and teenage mothers were all targeted in a section that owed more to rampant right wing ideology than anything remotely resembling real concern.
The following section though surely requires some sort of analysis from one of our esteemed political pundits. Leaving aside the pejorative and clearly intemperate language, this part has very sinister overtones.
...we will never allow separatists or narrow nationalists in Scotland or in Wales to sever the common bonds that bring our country together as one.
What is it about Brian Taylor that he never notices the most interesting parts of a speech or debate?
The SNP should seize on this statement and highlight it's dictatorial and clear undemocratic nature.
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To be fair to Brown, his plan isn't quite as bad as the bNP's. Brown wants to jail the dads as well (Harriet Harman clearly had an input), and hasn't (yet) defined the style of the homes like the BNP did
"The homes should not be ‘institution’ like, but at the same time there will be rules which must be adhered to; such as a curfew of approx 9pm, a dress code which states skirts must come to at least the knees & no cleavage to be on show. Failure to comply with the homes’ rules will result in the mother being sent to prison, and the baby being taken in to care.
If Brown had put that in his speech, I bet the Labour applause would have been even louder!
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Do they really believe what they say at these party confrences?
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I'm not quite sure which you make illegal in order to implement jailing underage parents: sex or pregnancy. It should make queues at clinics for abortions quite long and make darn sure NO young father ever admitted the fact (neither of which I'd in the least blame them for, you understand. Who wouldn't?). It might save some money short-term but since even Gordon Brown isn't suggesting jailing mothers at 18 and over, I don't see it as any kind of long-term solution to ANY social ill.
As for the "never accept independence in Scotland" thing I asked on another blog exactly how he prevents it? The list of possibilities is a bit short. Dissolve Holyrood so they can't BRING a referendum? Bring in troops so people can't VOTE in a referendum? Bring in tanks to OVERTURN a referendum? None of those seem like good choices to me.
NONE OF THESE WILL HAPPEN on either count. They won't jail young parents (whose parents would be horrified) and they won't prevent independence if the people of Scotland vote for it.
But was ANYONE thinking when this speech was written? HELLO!!!
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#36 handclapping
Sorry to hear about your plight!
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Online Ed Here
The BBC must realise that very may Scots and indeed Welsh will have picked up Brown's "we will not allow" line and will be asking what he means by it. Coupled with his admission that he "does not take no for an answer" it makes for uncomfortable listening when he appears to threaten not to take 'Yes' either.
Brown is beginning to resemble an obsessive partner who will not accept the end of a relationship and often ends up threatening the other partner, or god forbid, causing them deliberate harm in an attempt at ensuring they have no future outwith the said relationship.
Brown is now the most dangerous of Scots: A Unionist who is in power, about to lose that power and witnessing the end of the Union.
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Online Ed Here
The SNP offer 16 and 17 year olds the vote - Labour offer to send them off to war or lock them and their children up.
How much of a godsend is this proposal to all of Labour's opponents, both North and South.
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Is there actually a suggestion of jailing fathers who have created life while being underage, or are we taking the mick out of something else?
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I'm noting a distinct lack of unionists and Labourits wanting to discuss this subject. Maybe Derek should come along and tell us how glad Scotland should be to not be "allowed" to leave the union.
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Am I to presume that my hopes for an independent Scotland now rest with narrow English and Northern Ireland nationalists?
If only they are allowed to break the bonds (by omission in Brown's speech) do the Scots and Welsh have to remain a "United Kingdom"? I guess for the Welsh they get an upgrade from Principality status.
The really worrying part of this is that a cohort of apparatchiks and speech writers must have given this serious thought and scrutiny and still we get so much nonsense in one speech.
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More labour confusion on referendum
I suspect the papers will start to tear this speech into bits and then put the paper it was scrawled on into a wormery where it will at least do some good.
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Online Ed Here
Torcuil Crichton over at The Herald has listed Brown's speech promises in a handy ready reckoner. Interestingly he claims that Labour at Holyrood also want the 'Teenage Mum Borstals', or they have been told they want it.
Click Here
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Do we really believe what they say at these party confrences?
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We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.
Labour Party 1997 election manifesto
(The Treaty of Lisbon) is a good treaty for Britain and for the new Europe. We will put it to the British people in a referendum...
Labour Party 2005 election manifesto
Did Brown's speech give us any reason why we should believe Labour's promise of a referendum this time?
No. Thought not.
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I find the latest proposals concerning relationships quite worrying, insulting and quite offensive. It's totally backwards and fits perfectly into sterotypes within society.
Although woman are most likily to look after the child, sometimes fathers are also left behind to look after the child after the mother does a disappearing act. Shall men also be welcomed at these places?
I also noticed the wording states, 'single' so will fathers be able to vist their children and the mother too? I don't know about you, but I certainly would never allow my son or daughter to be taken away willingly.
I also do not believe underaged fathers would be placed in jail. These people have a large responsibility and the criminal record will put an end to ever creating a basic standard of living for his kid.
Besides I am sure the law would be the least of his worry if it was my daughter. I'd make sure that his soldiers aren't marching anymore once I am done with him.
I find these proposals will do more harm then good, you should be promoting strong families instead of seperation.
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Just had a laugh as apparently that the music as he left the stage was "Moving on up"
You've done me wrong, your time is up
You took a sip (just a sip) from the devils cup.
You broke my heart, there's no way back.
Move right outta here baby.
Go and pack your bags.
Just who do you think you are?
Stop acting like some kind of star.
Just who do you think you are?
Take it like a man baby if that's what you are.
I wonder who chose it.
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Can you have a convention of sane people now? This lot have given me a headache.
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I think Gordon Brown genuinely stated what he believes in. That would be further increasing the role of the state (bringing back the workhouse for miscreant teenage mothers, taking tax credits for childcare away and replacing them with state run nurseries, continuing with the Orwellian ID cards scheme etc). Those who disagree simply do not count and will be ignored or possibly arrested (we will not allow nationalists to break up the union...)
Thank goodness for democratic elections. I doubt that Labour realise how terrible that stuff sounds to people outside their circle.
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Alex Salmond is quite a wide nationalist, not narrow at all.
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The speech was the same old endlessly-recycled stuff, wasn’t it? Could have been any Labour politician at any time since the 60s.
I’m Labour. You’re Labour. We’re Labour. There’s nobody like us. Look at what we’ve done. Look at what we did fifty years ago. We’ve done so much. I promise we’ll do more. A new age is dawning. We’ll give everybody eternal life, except the bosses and fat cats. Why? Because Labour cares. I care. You care. We care. That’s why we’re Labour. We’re Labour because we care and we care because we’re Labour. They don’t care. We do. It’s in our genes. We’re a better sort of people. We Are The Peepul. All of you, and me. That’s why I believe. All you need is love. I have a dream……
The problem for Brown is that it doesn't matter what he says or does: people are just sick of the sight and sound of him.
One point about the 'sound' of him: if he's so sincere, if he wants to sell himself on his 'ordinary' background, what happened to his pronunciation of 'r'? I noticed several years ago that, uniquely amongst Scottish-raised MPs, he was saying 'weuhld' for 'world', 'weuhss' for 'worse', and so on. He didn't learn that in Kirkcaldy; nor has he spent enough time in London to undergo an involuntary wholesale change of accent. It's a deliberate modification, sooking up to Middle England.
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Nice, referendum anyone?
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Gray-hints-at-policy-Uturn.5685680.jp
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I get the impression that some of the bloggers on here actually believe what has been said at the Labour party conference. There did not seem so much interest at the Liberal conference but I would assume that is down to the fact that Brian and his BBC colleagues don't think that they matter.
Will the believers be listening to Conservatives' big bash when it comes?
Have you been invited to that one Brian??
Interestingly you didn't appear at the Liberal conference.............
Labour cannot and will not win the next election so what ever plans Mr Brown and his colleagues have are mere rhetoric which is what all political party conferences are.
If I was an alien checking out what life on the planet was like and in particular the great UK(That is so difficult to write) I think I would about turn and home.
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Can we expect another speech from Gray in light of Browns?
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#56. Haha! Thank you. A good laugh was required to clear away the stench from that speech.
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I have just listened to Gordon Brown's speech. It was very well written and nearly perfect in its presentation.
No wonder he needs to borrow all that money if he is going to do what he has talked about. It's going to cost a fortune. Of course, he doesn't need to worry about that aspect of it as he won't be in power to implement it. The speech was, in my humble opinion, designed solely for the Labour faithful and should not be taken as the forseeable future in the next Tory government. It was mostly what he wanted to see happen in the future without taken into account the huge sums of money that it would cost.
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The nat pack sure get excited at good policies.Christ! if Salmond ever does manage to get one yes! Porter and others One single manifesto pledge through parliament I suspect the nat pack will be waving their flags for weeks. giggle..giggle...giggle
Allele, the chromosome master who does x to y.And leaves Scotland at ever opportunity.
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oops Gordon Brown just finally lost The Sun (although it has been sliding that way for a while).
While I don't believe "it wiz The Sun wot done it" there's little doubting that many get their "political information" through News International channels. The fightback may well have been dealt a KO before it has even begun.
Question is how do the Murdoch press in Scotland play to this seeming edict from the boy James?
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So giggles do you want to discuss Gordon Brown not ALLOWING a referendum on Scottish independence. Let's just discuss that, shall we?
Or maybe you'd rather discuss the proposal to drag unwed mother's out of their homes?
I'm sure we can find something interesting to talk about.
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Hello Derek,
You may be pleased that taking single mothers out of public eye is good, but I certainly feel that the state should not be able to have such a powerful influence on relationships, especially if it's my family.
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#66
Here he comes, little boy blue, who fell of his dodgy horse. Hark! what tripe shall he spew! now! piffle/tosh and just plain child talk I imagine.
GO AWAY PORTER!
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44. U14094468
"The SNP offer 16 and 17 year olds the vote - Labour offer to send them off to war or lock them and their children up."
Beat me to it! Well said OnlineEd.
The contrast is getting starker and starker.
The thing is, I'm not sure they're even aware any more right-wing they are now positioning themselves.
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53. cynicalHighlander
you really are a cynical cynicalHighlander :)
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Excellent speech by Gordon, passionate and laying out the real choice for the UKs voters; Labour or the Tories.
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# 56 snowthistle
lol, that counts AS out, then.
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#64. At 10:18pm on 29 Sep 2009, BlooToon wrote:
oops Gordon Brown just finally lost The Sun...
Explain please.
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# 57 Freenonbrit
I’m Labour. You’re Labour. We’re Labour. There’s nobody like us. Look at what we’ve done. Look at what we did fifty years ago. We’ve done so much. I promise we’ll do more. A new age is dawning. We’ll give everybody eternal life, except the bosses and fat cats. Why? Because Labour cares. I care. You care. We care. That’s why we’re Labour. We’re Labour because we care and we care because we’re Labour. They don’t care. We do. It’s in our genes. We’re a better sort of people. We Are The Peepul. All of you, and me. That’s why I believe. All you need is love. I have a dream……
Rofl
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Hello again Derek,
How does it feel to see the Liberal Democrats ahead of Labour according to polls?
Perhaps you could defend Labour's policy. Isn't that what activists are suppose to do?
I could buy the mother issue, but certainly not as it currently stands.
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Giggle..Giggle..Giggle....It's like charge of the very light brigade.
Come ahead scabies while you get volleyed to the left and volleyed to the right.
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#66. Oh, dear. I think you upset our Derek/giggles. Tsk. ;-)
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#69. And EVERY poll shows support for a REFERENDUM--which your beloved PM says he will not ALLOW. (Or is it only that he would prevent implementation if the union lost? hmmm?)
And amazing how the recession doesn't mean that he can't promise (actually HAVING being another issue) a referendum, recession or not. How embarrassing for Iain Gray who assures us that the recession means that it is evil for the SNP to call for a referendum.
Referendum for Labour = Good
Referendum for SNP = Bad
I believe the name for that is hypocrisy, Derek.
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# 76 giggletheloneranger
Geez, Derek, whatever you're on; can I have some?
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#75 Porter
Someone say something!
Like the frog said......Read it! think about it, young one.
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69. giggletheloneranger
Oh well, glad that's settled then.
Do we just do all our business through polls now Giggles.
You keep whining on about the lack of manifesto pledges the SNP have pushed through - the best one's yet to come - they were voted into government by the people of Scoltand on a manifesto commitment to a referendum on independence.
When that one happens - you're dead right the nats will be excited.
polls - gie them a cuddle, it'll mak ye feel better!
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Could someone tell the "chief executive, Salmond" that the Scottish electorate dont trust him.
Pass it on now! fledglings
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73. JRMacClure
"oops Gordon Brown just finally lost The Sun...
Explain please."
Sun's Down On Brown In Favour Of Tories
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# 57 Freenonbrit,
Thanks, you made me laugh...
Should we, who have left UK, start to get worried about the bit about him having changed the world once and how he's going to change it again? ah, the Lord love him and his wee cotton socks.
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I see that's Rupert's empire changing their colours too now...
Tomorrow's "Sun" headline....
"Labour's Lost it!"
How long before the Scottish papers do likewise?
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70. mrbfaethedee
Hat tip calum cashley.
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Yes, teen pregnancy is a problem that needs to be addressed. But dragging them out of homes (mandatory means that) to force them into institutions? Anyone who considers that a solution does belong in the BNP where is has been advocated for some time I believe.
Not ALLOWING Scotland and Wales self-determination? The man didn't say people wouldn't vote for it. He said he would not ALLOW it. Derek may not be able to recognize the difference but the rest of us can.
You'll find giggles here. I'm horrified. It's a bit like watching a train wreck.
I keep saying it's just convention rhetoric--usual hot air. But it's really grim.
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From Bagehot at the Economist Gordon's speech.
There is a mix of fatalism and ostrich-like denial that is preventing Labour from facing up to its daunting prospects.
Says it all, really.
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54: BlooToon, you beat me to it re my last post;-)
Wonder what the Daily Record will make of this, doubtless they will blindly carry on as always!
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Another attack on Labour from the socialist workers (but you would expect them to attack right wing parties) No job is safe under Gordon Brown
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@ 73
James Murdoch was in town visiting "Britain's Favourite" newspaper. Tomorrow's headline is unequivocal that Labour has lost it. To paraphrase the paper's own headline "will the last person to leave [the union] please turn the light off?"
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Online Ed Here
I wonder if any journalist will ask Iain Gray whether having a debate on voting reform (surely counts as constitutional reform) in the midst of what he believes will still be a recession is a bad idea.
Come on BBC journalists, someone has to start asking Gray or Murphy at least ONE awkward question.
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#83. At 10:48pm on 29 Sep 2009, cynicalHighlander wrote:
73. JRMacClure
"oops Gordon Brown just finally lost The Sun...
Explain please."
Sun's Down On Brown In Favour Of Tories
Pardon my ignorance, but as you know there is newspaper support--and then there is newspaper support.
How important is the Sun endorsement? Or losing it? From the reaction, I assume it is important?
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Some interesting thoughts by Paul Waugh at the Evening Standard Teen mums Groundhog Day?
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Oh dear, it looks like the Sun is no longer shining for Gordon.
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How long will it be before the BBC follow?
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Actually Derek brought up a good poem:
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
Sounds a bit like Labour's prospects at the moment, does it not? Though some might object to the imputation of heroism. ;-)
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#87 JR
Pontificating again JR, or just throwing stones at the moon!.
Mork calling oldmindy........... Popcorn chicken again!.
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# 83 cynicalHighlander
If the Sun is now anti-Labour then it really is goodbye Mr. Brown.
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Yay - my #245 about bbc impartiality and the memorandum of understanding between the bbc trust and ofcam has appeared in the comments to the 'Big debate takes to the road' thread.
It would still have been nice to know who referred it.
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#100. At 11:03pm on 29 Sep 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
# 83 cynicalHighlander
If the Sun is now anti-Labour then it really is goodbye Mr. Brown.
Ah. I think that answers my above question.
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# 94 JRMacClure
The Sun under Murdoch has never lost an election yet. The only boobs it has ever made were on page 3.
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101. mrbfaethedee
You'll find its the mods if they remove it on first screen it comes as "referred" subsequent modding becomes "house rules".
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94: JRMacClure
The "Giggles" of the world regularly by (news?)papers like "The Sun", "Daily Record", Sunday Mail while driving their white vans up and down the country making deliveries. (you can often see a copy sitting on the dash of their windscreens while their parked up "on the job")
They're spoon fed what party to vote for by the Benoes and Dandy's of the newspaper world so although it may not be a paper you're familiar with, the votes may well prove significant in number.
Wonder when Sky will follow suit, not long now, that's for sure!
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@ 94
Probably more important as a barometer of public opinion. Rupert
Murdoch just doesn't back a loser.
What it also does is hurt badly for NuLiebour who spent a long time courting Murdoch support (a wee tweak of media ownership regulations here and there to sweeten the deal).
The support of The Sun was the crowning glory for the NuLiebour project.
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#103. Ouch. I could almost feel sorry for the man IF he didn't say such stupid things AND follow Pres. Obama around like a lost puppy.
Admittedly I'm a left-winger myself, but if THOSE are left-wing policies or even centerist then we need to move the left-wing a BIT further left. He is now picking up policies from the BNP?!!
No wonder Murdock has written him off.
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Further to my # 103 I hasten to add that I've never read the paper. ;-)However, Wei Wei Wong was gorgeous and so was Linda Lusardi...ahem...so I've been told.
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Re my 105, should have read "Beano's", but I'm sure you get the point ;-)
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#105
That was so bad, I think you need a tune
I could be so lochee! lochee' lochee' lochee!.
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#105. Much the same over here, of course. I've heard of the Sun, of course, but wasn't sure of its influence. There are always certain ones that sway their followers and others that don't.
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Britain and England: A Case Of Split Identity
Bedtime reading anyone.
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# 106 giggletheloneranger
If you have been keeping up with my posts, Derek, then you will be aware that I've never voted for Labour and as I've lived in England for decades, and there are no SNP candidates down here, I've either voted SDP or, more lately, Tory. Sorry to disappoint you.
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Whey hey! oldnat, get your £12 quid back, you've been fooled
The nat-pack are just chipping dirt in the trench!.
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@106
Giggles so it's homophobia now as well then? Just weeks after your leader did one of the few gracious acts of his tenure and apologised for the actions of the state against Alan Turing.
For your records if you are modded I'm at least one of the referers.
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#103. Hmmmm But I was just reading somewhere that they were the one with that infamous "SNP Noose" headline back in 2007 so they don't ALWAYS back the winners, just usually.
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28 HAMISH: More dirty tricks? Maybe he'll set up a series of secret meetings again with Ming Campbell.
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#112JR wrote
" #105. Much the same over here, of course. I've heard of the Sun, of course, but wasn't sure of its influence"
IT'S THE BIG YELLOW THING THATS RISES IN THE MORNING, IT BRING HEAT AND LIGHT....hope that help's you JR.
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104. cynicalHighlander
I see, cheers cynaicalHighlander.
Nothing like keeping things unclear eh?
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94. JRMacClure
"Pardon my ignorance, but as you know there is newspaper support--and then there is newspaper support.
How important is the Sun endorsement? Or losing it? From the reaction, I assume it is important?"
Yes, it's pretty significant. The Sun readers tend not to have most discerning of political intellects and as such are fairly easily led. There are also an awful lot of them, some of whom actually bother to vote. If that sounds patronising and an over-generalisation then I plead guilty as charged. But its basically true.
The Sun claimed to have got Maggie elected in 79. Thatcher gave an interview in which she acknowledged that the Sun's headlines on the days before polling had made a difference - cue the headline "It was the Sun wot won it!"
The Sun became famous for its Page3 topless photos many years ago and that tells you all you need to know. I don't know if it still has its Page 3 "stunnah" cos I havent looked inside the rag for a very long time now. A despicable little rag, embodying everything that is distasteful about modern Britain. It did have some nice knockers in it in bygone days of yore, though and was cheaper than a Razzle or Fiesta.
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By the way, just in case anyone wonders about my own politics which I rarely discuss, Republicans scare and disgust me in a major way and I am left-wing enough that I'm barely comfortable with the Democrats but there aren't a lot of other choices in my part of the world.
And Republicans get more repulsive every day. *shudder*
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Here is a link to the Sun and here is a link to the USA's equivilent the NY post. Both are owned by Murdoch.
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The Murdoch empire are best ignored. Their switching of horses is to stroke their sense of the corporate over the civic, and of course to boost their rep.
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117. BlooToon
"For your records if you are modded I'm at least one of the referers."
Aw naw!! And there was me thinking it was all my own work!
Giggles, get your GP to change the medication, please.
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# 118 JRMacClure
I was talking about the UK elections but I was brought up not to argue with women, who are always in the right. Never understood why they always had to get the last word in.
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#125. Ugh. Yes. I'm aware that Murdoch owns the Post. A totally disgusting rag. Infamous among some for what are viewed as racist attacks on Pres. Obama among other tawdry behavior. But I don't think anyone would list it as having major political clout--at least I wouldn't.
Which of course does not relate to the Sun's clout over your way.
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#120.
Sarcasm...the lowest form of wit.
Re your 106...
You should go back to your cage now, I heard it's clean now.
Nuff said
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Thought this was rather interesting: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-1217042/Mr-Brown-isnt-bad-man-But-hes-cursed-profound-belief-citizens-knows-best-spend-money.html
Not sure with this kind of coverage that he can expect a very lasting bounce.
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#134
Drop the er and digest the hype, it's what Alex feeds on!
Larger than a door entrance?. could well be?.
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#128. At 11:51pm on 29 Sep 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
# 118 JRMacClure
I was talking about the UK elections but I was brought up not to argue with women, who are always in the right. Never understood why they always had to get the last word in.
See, that shows your mother reared you well. Of course, we're always right. ;-)
I wasn't aware you meant only UK though. You have to be sure and spell these things out to Americans. You know we're a bit slow on the uptake--even when female.
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134. mrbfaethedee
"Now he's yapping away like an excited puppy."
I wonder if he is related to "Puddles" Alexander?
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#136JR
No renditions of the sun will come out tomorrow, please!
Well now you've cracked it!.
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135. giggletheloneranger
"Drop the er and digest the hype, it's what Alex feeds on!
Larger than a door entrance?. could well be?. "
Where's the hype just now? not many column inches for AS just now.
Must be your imagination.
He's feeding your desperate disarray :)
What are you feeding on?
A dour entrance - it's the Mighty Broon!
yip! yap!
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Giggle, avoid spam please. Humor is fine. Spam is not.
mrbfaethedee, your removed comment was my fault. I meant to report the spam above it. I apologize.
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i see the sun has endorsed the conservative party. well what a surprise, that is a real shocker. the quicker murdoch senior retires the better. you think the bbc is bad for bias, news interational is worse! and it is a company that is almost impossible to avoid.
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142. JRMacClure
No probs JRMacClure, worse things happen at sea :)
That's 3 for this page!
1. presumably because it quoted a previous post which got removed, not my fault.
2. off topic, despite the fact it talked about how excited some people were to have heard the PM speak today - the topic of the blog!
3. a wee joke with Sgt_Furry.
Better say something about Broon's speech since the mods are feeling pumped up tonight ;)
From his speech -
"in opting for nuclear energy it is Labour that is the party of British business"
Nice to see the motivation for our energy strategy come straight from NuLabs heart!
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143. giggletheloneranger
"I like your honesty!"
That's because it's a refreshing change for you after the Labour conference.
There's no point in a bit of banter, the posts are dropping like flies.
Why don't you tell me what you thought of Gray, Murphy, Darling, Mandy, and Brown at the conf. Or pick your fave.
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This is a rough commentary on the promises on policy that Gordon Brown made at the conference. Other posters have already picked up on the referendum and under-age mother statements in the speech but some of the rest are interesting too.
we will ensure school leavers training, guarantee the young unemployed work experience, expand university places and to increase, not cut the apprenticeships we need.
Where is the money coming from?
So we will pass a new law to intervene on bankers' bonuses whenever they put the economy at risk. And any director of any of our banks who is negligent will be disqualified from holding any such post.
Brilliant. After all the rhetoric on how he saved Britain's banking system what he proposes is a law on Banker's bonuses. Not regulating transactions or the ratio of banks' assets to their loans but a bonus law. Since none of the directors of the Banks who failed have been declared negilgent what use is his second promise of disqualification.
So we will create a new national investment corporation to provide finance for growing manufacturing and other businesses; our £1 billion innovation fund will the back the creativity and inventions that are essential to the economy.
Innovation fund? Where is the money coming from, who pays and how is this different from the current enterprise companies system. Will it apply in Scotland?
we can today offer in partnership with the Federation of Small Businesses, ten thousand skilled internships so that, even in the midst of tough economic times, we are encouraging a whole new generation of young Britons to embrace ambition and British enterprise.
What's an internship and do they get paid? Where is the money coming from? The FSB or the Government?
And I can also announce that we will work with the Eden project and Mayday Network to create the biggest group of green work placements we have ever done- up to 10,000 green job placements so that our young people can make the most of the opportunities the low carbon economy will open up to them.
Again, where is the money coming from?
Our deficit reduction plan to cut the deficit in half over four years, will be made law in a new fiscal responsibility act.
Nuts. Totally nuts. What are they going to do if the Government can't do it? What if a new recession comes? It's a law to do something which may very well not be in their power to achieve.
So we will raise tax at the very top, , cut costs, have realistic public sector pay settlements, make savings we know we can and in 2011 raise National Insurance by half a percent and that will ensure that each and every year we protect and improve Britain's frontline services.
Squeeze the rich, "efficiency savings", and by the way we're going to squeeze all "hard working families" by raising national insurance.
We've already ensured that three quarters of our GP practices are open out of hours - and in the next five years we will ensure every patient has the right to see a GP in the evening or at the weekend.
Does this apply to Scotland?
We've already lifted 900 thousand pensioners out of poverty - and in the next five years will restore the earnings link for the basic state pension.
So the very low pension is only going to increase in line with earnings from now on. It will not be restrospective.
And in the last twelve years we created the first legal national minimum wage.
And in every year of the next five years we will increase it.
Is it an increase of 1p, 2p or £10 pounds an hour every year? Numbers Gordon.
And I can say today that not just the minimum wage, but child benefit and child tax credits for families will continue to rise every year.
Where is the money coming from?
And for all those mums and dads who struggle to juggle work and home, I am proud to announce today that by reforming tax relief we will by the end of the next Parliament be able to give the parents of a quarter of a million two year olds free childcare for the first time.
You're the genius who thought up the insane tax credits scheme and now you're going to try and make it work. Oh boy.
From now on all 16 and 17 year old parents who get support from the taxpayer will be placed in a network of supervised homes.
So how many will come under this scheme. What happens when they turn 18? Will they get council houses then or be turfed out onto the street? Is this just about delaying them getting a council house for 2 to 3 years? Is this a real problem at all and will the costs of the health professionals, social workers, building costs, maintenance and so on be much more than the current costs of putting them in a council house? Has any one thought this through and does it apply in Scotland?
Starting now and right across the next Parliament every one of the 50,000 most chaotic families will be part of a family intervention project - with clear rules, and clear punishments if they don't stick to them.
What is chaotic? What are the punishments? How many families are chaotic and what percentage of that number is 50,000?
But it's not working in some places and so we will give local authorities the power to ban 24 hour drinking throughout a community in the interests of local people.
I thought this was the job of the licensing board?
And where there is persistent trouble from binge drinking, we will give local people the right to make pubs and clubs pay for cleaning up their neighbourhood and making it safe.
Will all pubs and clubs in an area pay, even the ones who are very careful about who they serve or will it just be the "bad" ones. And how do you decide which pubs the bingers came from? Shouldn't the licensing board just shut them down?
We will reduce the information British citizens have to give for the new biometric passport to no more than that required for today's passport.
And so conference, I can say to you today, in the next Parliament there will be no compulsory ID cards for British citizens.
The NO2ID campaign think this is just a lot of hot air. http://press.mu.no2id.net/2009-09/brown-misleads-conference-on-id-cards/
and we will never allow separatists or narrow nationalists in Scotland or in Wales to sever the common bonds that bring our country together as one.
Has he just ruled out a referendum?
We will pass legislation that the British government is obliged to raise spending on aid to the poorest countries to 0.7% of our national income. Others may break their promises to the poorest, with Labour Britain never will.
Again who pays. We've got recession and a huge deficit and aid has become a legal obligation.
We will finance a new right for cancer patients to have diagnostic tests carried out, completed and with results - often same day results - within one week of seeing your GP. That is our early diagnosis guarantee, building on our current guarantee of only two weeks wait to see a specialist.
Does this apply in Scotland?
And so for those with the highest needs we will now offer in their own homes free personal care.
Does this apply in Scotland?
And so where there is proven financial corruption by an MP and in cases where wrong-doing has been demonstrated but Parliament fails to act we will give constituents the right to recall their Member of Parliament.
No MP's were convicted of corruption in the current expenses scandal and "Where Parliament fails to act" is a real get out clause. No-one could have been recalled for any of the recent scandals under this wording.
And so I can announce today that in Labour's next manifesto there will be a commitment for a referendum to be held early in the next Parliament it will be for the people to decide whether they want to move to the Alternative Vote.
Labour know that their chances are shot under FPTP.
In this next year we will remove the hereditary principle in the House of Lords once and for all. And then unlike the last election we will ask for a clear mandate to make the House of Lords an accountable and democratic second chamber for the very first time.
So Mandy and all the rest of the Lords, Ladies and Bishops are out? No more Lords and Bishops only elected members? They've just removed the final ambition of a touch of ermine which all Labour politicians aspire to.
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#147mrb
"it is Labour that is the party of British business"
You becoming very good at these quotes.
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147. Better say something about Broon's speech since the mods are feeling pumped up tonight ;)
Well, I've put in a 5 or 6 complaints about spam so it's probably my fault. I won't complain about something that is even vaguely political but the spam has gotten boring and out-of-hand.
And speaking of politics, I thought this was mildly interesting:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1217052/PETER-OBORNE-He-chose-save-skin--rescue-Britain.html
A bit harsh. Is the Daily Mail anti-Labour?
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@144
Giggles at least JR has the decency to apologise for her error.
I note you have seen no need to apologise for your homophobia (which so far I will chalk up to an error of judgement ok your part rather than a glimpse of your genuine beliefs).
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Mr Brown has obviously been doing his research. He'll soon have us on the straight and narrow. Yes, indeedie: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/08/sunday/main567365.shtml
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I have to say that that speech of Brown's may have a seminal effect on politics. His "gulags for slags" (as decribed by another blogster) has been directly nicked from the BNP and will come back to haunt him.
Will this be the issue that will bring the young out to vote?
Even my wife (politically uninterested usually )found Sarah's appearance cringworthy.
Was this speech actually proofed by a sensible person before he stated that he would block the democratic rights of the Scottish people?
Did Mandy write it to set him up?
It will be interesting to see what line the "Scottish" Sun runs tomorrow.
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@147
Mr B don't think there has been much undue nodding going on. Check the posts and the reasons are given.
Hopefully your words can pull Giggles back from whatever has caused his I'll judged behaviour tonight. Even for him it has Bren out of character.
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150. giggletheloneranger
"You becoming very good at these quotes."
If your being sincere - aww shucks.
If you're being sarky - expanding the whole thing doesn't change the sense -
"In opening up planning in improving transport, in opting for nuclear energy it is Labour that is the party of British business and British enterprise and the Conservative Party's whose policy has been to walk away."
What do you think?
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#156Bloo
Your not some self appointed muppet that scrutinises everyone's posts.
I've no come here to tae shoot blanks, I've come to fight and fight I will for what is right.
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156. BlooToon
And there's always tomorrow :)
On that note, eh'm aff...
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#155. Isn't it a bit embarrassing to have to have your non-political spouse introduce you? I always think it makes it look like no one else will. And the "I love my man and I know he loves the country." I agree with your wife. :-)
And the phrasing of his comment about independence. What idiot wrote that line? Is that that speech writer of his? Because if it was I can see why people think she's not up to the job.
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@158
And homophobia is "what's right"?
That's the one and only post I refered Giggles.
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#149. At 00:39am on 30 Sep 2009, DougtheDug wrote:
Where is the money coming from?
Looks to me like a question that a lot of people are asking, Doug.
#161. I freely admit that I am the "muppet" that reported spam. It came to the point that his "fight" obviously involved disrupting the blog. Every single one I reported has been removed you'll note and the emailed saying they agreed.
I don't usually report comments but it is not acceptable to disrupt a blog like that.
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Ouch!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/sep/30/gordon-brown-conference-speech
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The Scottis Sun seems to be having a little difficulty with the new editorial line!
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/sun_says/1460642/The-Scottish-Sun-Says.html
A lot of fudging in there.
"If David Cameron becomes the next Prime Minister, Scotland needs to make the best of it.
We need to be convinced that he is serious about Scotland. That he really cares about what happens north of the border.
The run-up to the General Election will be the most important chapter in Scotland's recent political history"
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#164. Can you read that as "We've been ordered to back the Tories and we like our jobs but don't believe a word of it?" LOL
That's how I'd read it anyway.
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#164. From the same editorial:
Britain feels broken . . . and the Government is out of excuses.
Hmmmmmm And further down:
Yet they have allowed traditional voters in their strongest of strongholds to become so disenchanted that we've drifted to within a vote of breaking up Britain.
Scotland is big enough and grown-up enough to have control over the issues that affect our country.
But we believe most Scots still recognise we are stronger in every way as part of a united Britain.
and... And it is time for Cameron to come out from behind the rhetoric and show what he will really do for our nation.
A lot less than a ringing endorsement for Tories and a whole lot less than a sucker punch for the SNP. "we believe most Scots still believe..." Hardly "the world would come to an end with independence."
At best equivocal support. Be interesting to know if Murdoch will accept that kind of equivocation long term though. I hear he is nasty to staff who don't do as they're told. But they may have permission to only "kinda sorta" support the Tories.
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Angus McLeod in the Times has an interesting contrast between English and Scottish Labour
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6854618.ece
"perhaps Mr Brown was, in effect, showing the Scottish party how by setting out aspirations for action on single parents, new antisocial behaviour “action squads”, extending intervention on “chaotic” families and introducing one-week diagnosis for cancer. These are all policies which, because of devolution, will only apply in England, but could at least give Scottish Labour some kind of a manifesto platform."
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#149 DougtheDug
That is the most sensible post on this current blog.
And the main question is as you said....
"where are they going to get the money"
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Isn't it a little late for Scottish Labour to have a manifesto platform? Shouldn't maybe the party have given them a hint a bit earlier? Like before they made fools of themselves?
I rather imagine that the SNP may come up with something at their conference as well. Be interesting to see how the next month plays out.
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But the whole "let's spy on each other and turn each other in" Nazi attitude that seems to be going on in England--do the Scots really want to adopt that?
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Breaking news, no surprise but what timing!
Sun withdraws support for Labour.
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Took a bit of what gloss there may have been off the conference, didn't it? I wonder though--does the Scottish Sun carry as much clout up North? Even though it's not exactly enthusiastic support for the Tories--it is support. It might get them an extra MP or two, don't you suppose?
Maybe 4 or 5 instead of the expected 2 or 3? Not sure really who they'd hurt if that happened. SNP or LibDems?
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There goes my dream of seeing Mags Curran on page three.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6852515.ece
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#172 JRMacClure
I really doubt that the Scottish Sun change of heart will make much difference. The political demographics of Scotland and England are too dissimilar.
In England, the political choice for the urban working-class male (your stereotypical Sun/Daily Record reader) is Lab, Con, BNP. While in Scotland it is essentially Lab, SNP. If the Scottish Sun is stridently pro-Tory it will simply lose readership, so it is likely to play it cool as we have seen.
If Murdoch has decided to throw his weight behind a Tory victory, then the SNP picking up some Scottish seats from Labour could be seen as an advantage. He has no concrn for Scotland's position - only the commercial advantages for his empire. I'd, therefore, expect the Scottish Sun to be anti-independence, but not necessarily stridently SNP.
My guess is that it will position itself by gradually increasing attacks on Labour, while not strongly endorsing anyone else. Negativity sells. Endorsement doesn't unless you are selling to a market that already resonates with your views.
In England, there is still a large vote which is prepared to move between Lab and Con, and the English Sun will probably make some alteration in voting there.
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#174 pattymkirkwood
Just does not have the same ring to it as Wendy’s Bring it on, But after all he does have a lacklustre ‘Grey’ personality.
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Re jailing of 16/17 year old parents
Torcuil Crichton in the Scotsman says " (England only, Labour wants the same in Scotland)."
I've checked the NBLab site policy section, and it says nothing about this. Has NBLab suddenly endorsed this after GB telling them what they should do in devolved Scotland?
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oldnat
Did you watch the opposition charade ‘No Confidence’ meeting at Holyrood after the decision on Ali Megrahi.
If my memory serves me correctly as AS was winding up he was handed a piece of paper by a cleric, from Jimmy Brown saying he agreed with the decision.
Am I correct.
Or was he having a poke at the Gray man. It was shortly after the information that the UK government did not want Megrahi to die in a Scottish prison.
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I wonder if Johnston Press continue to peddle labour party press releases and try and pass it off as news or will they do a u turn like the Sun.
Somehow I don't think so. There are too many lackeys at Hootsman House who have ambitions of boarding the labour gravy train even if means being permenantly sat on the losers side of the chamber.
It's sad that a few so called journalists are willing to kill off a once great newspaper to satisfy their own personal greed.
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#178 Roll_On_2010
I did. though it certainly wasnt from a cleric! (Sorry, a typo I know, but it was funny!)
As I remember, Brown hadn't said that he agreed with the decision, simply that he wasn't disagreeing. That still drove a gulf between Gray and the leader of his party, though, which Salmond was more than happy to point out.
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#180 oldnat
Sorry about typo…but if it was funny I will have to do it more often.
Thanks for the clarification.
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For being in what assumes is the same party, Brown et al down south don't seem to much mind embarrassing Gray. Is there some reason for that? You'd think keeping him in the loop would help hold onto Scotland so it doesn't make sense to me.
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#179. Might not there is a better chance of that with the SNP than with Labour? If, as some say, Labour is going to lose seats in Scotland... Maybe for a very long time? I don't know. Just pondering the possibilities. There have been a few articles and columns in it recently that were almost not anti-SNP. (if you'll pardon the double negative lol)
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OK. I was wrong about the Scottish Sun gradually attacking Labour!
Tomorrow's (sorry, today's for those in Scotland)front page
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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#184. Why did they take off the link?!
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Re my #184
No idea why the URL was unsuitable, but go to the thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/ and you'll see
"Dossier of their Failures : Sun verdict on the key issues"
Lifted straight from their English edition.
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Found it. Ouch! Harsh. Very harsh.
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#182 JRMacClure
You would think so but Wendy, the previous leader of NBLab, went on TV to announce ‘Bring it on’ about the referendum.
While Jimmy Brown, down south, was telling parliament that she did not say that and that the referendum was not in the SNP manifesto. When obviously it was.
All I can put it down to is NuLabour joined up thinking….yeah.
Appears either NuLabour don’t learn or Gray was trying to be his own boss.
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Amazingly there are now 1,145 comments in 12 hours on Guido's blog about jailing 16/17 year olds being a BNP policy nicked by Labour.
From the quick sample I took earlier, most were from men, either in favour of the policy, or wanting to know how they could access these girls (or both). There are a lot of sick people in this world!
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Midnight in NC, so off to bed.
My last night in the USA, so I get to see the posts in real time, when I get back on Thursday!
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I'm sure you'll be glad to get home, oldnat. Hope you had a good visit.
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The speach was complete fantasy, to suggest otherwise.....usual unionist BBC bias.
Brown's avoidance of talking with journalists on the Sun switching to the Tories is completely within character and deeply damaging.
Brown destroyed pensions when he was in No 11, why trust him now?
This is the final death throws of discredited party led by a broken man.
Soon the dead hand of labour will be lifted from Scoland, they'll be dancing in the steeets of Raith!
D McN
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#190 Oldnat
Were you ever 'glenncampelled' during your visit?
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Brian, you wrote 'Skivers, benefit cheats and city centre drunks? The PM was against them.'
Can I set the record straight and say that that was not a personal attack against me.
The Baron.
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I think you lot may hate Brown even more than we hated Bush in his last days. I have been looking for anyone saying something good about the poor man. Even the BBC is at best tepid.
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Well, let me take that back. American news sites like him and none mentions al-Megrahi or oil deals. Americans have VERY short memories--never underestimate the shortness of our memories.
Reuters for example headlines "Britain's Brown seeks salvation in centre ground" with a list of his talking points from his speech. They seem a bit baffled in describing that no one there likes him. After all, from our point of view (unmentioned) he sent troops to Afghanistan so what's not to like?
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# 161 BlooToon
I believe he was referring to me in that post. I did not find it offensive as I knew that Derek was just trying to be funny. However, I respect your right to be offended by his remark and I would back your actions.
I once managed a 'gay' bar in a seaside town in the south east. I didn't know it was a 'gay' bar until about 3 weeks after I took it over. I just thought the lads were being friendly. It wasn't until one of them tried to kiss me that I realised what I had gotten myself into. When I explained that I was not that way inclined it rapidly spread around the regulars. It certainly gave me an insight into an area of life in the UK that I'd never really paid any attention to. I made some very good friends there and still chat to them online (I have since moved from that town back to London). Some of them related to me some horrific stories of homophobic behaviour which made me feel embarrassed and ashamed to be a 'straight'. Mind you, sometimes I needed an umbrella behind the bar due to the amount of hissing that went on between them. All in all I can honestly say that the majority of them were some of the nicest people that I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
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Time Is Running Out.
Let us be candid here, time has ran out. It is no longer of any relevance what Gordon Brown does, says or even thinks. Gordon Brown is no longer releveant to the future of these islands.
Wansanshoo
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I see that my # 197 has been referred because I think I used a word to express a certain section of society that I was backing; a word that is used by them to describe themselves. I won't use that word but will try the dictionary definition and see if that is acceptable. The word is: Homosexual. If this passes then I will change the word in the posting and re-post it.
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The British labour message for dummies:
Referendums
- Right time in Britain, wrong time in Scotland, non starter in EU constitution.
- Labour set question good, SNP question bad.
- Labour stand by UK voters right to chose or reject criteria for electoral reform (as long as its only Labours set criteria), reject British citizens right to determine our place in Europe, reject Scots right to chose, much of anything and will refuse to accept a chpoice they don't agree with.
Parties and policies:
-Labour good, Tory bad, SNP are evil extremists.
-Labour fight the good fight, tories are fake, SNP are evil extremists.
-Trust Labour, ask tories the hard questions, ignore SNP evil extremists.
-British Labour have policies, North British Labour have none, are told what to adopt which is usually the South British ones. *** Labour calls this subsidiarity ***
- Gordon brown responsible for saving the world, had absolutetly no responsibility for the economic collapse and will change the world again (clause: no promise of a change for the better).
- Gordon is a magician: wage, child tax credits and child benefit UP. Despite this Gordon will massively reduce UK debt in the next term. This will be achieved despite a recession, reduced tax revenue and a major increase in unemployment.
This is possibly why is justified in stating that it is British Labour, and they alone, that dream the big dreams!
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What I'm looking forward to seeing at the next general election are the shock wins. Perhaps a little sad, but at ge time I take the next day off work and sit up to watch the results coming in.
I expect a few senior figures to lose their seats, but what will be political dynamite will be if the BNP manage to win a seat.
As for the Sun's backing, it won't work in Liverpool. The Sun is not exactly the best selling paper there. So Labour can consider themselves safe there!
I still think Alan Johnson is going to replace Brown. After all, it cannot make things any worse than they are.
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Online Ed Here
Just listening to Gordon Brown right at this moment basically lying about both BOS and RBS, saying that they had collapsed and that no Scottish administration could have saved these institutions.
He also repeated the lie that Scotland would have effectively been left like Iceland had we been independent.
Amazingly, this answer was in response to being asked why it was OK to have a referendum on voting but not on independence - he simply refused to even consider the question, and was allowed to.
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200, ephemeraldeception, most excellent post!
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The beeb don't seem to be keeping us up to date on the gas find west of Shetland, so I will.
The Glenlivet side track has been "successfully drilled and has confirmed the lateral extent of the high quality gas bearing reservoir. Based on the preliminary logging data, the results exceed the prognosed net gas column and reservoir quality.
The partnership has decided to drill a second side track appraisal well." Faroe Petroleum Plc.
will keep you posted.
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204 At 10:10am on 30 Sep 2009, snowthistle wrote:
Thanks for that update snowthistle, I'm currently putting articles together for Newsnet Scotland edition 4 - links, if you have them, are always appreciated.
Anyone catch the representative from The Scotsman on radio Scotland phone in this morning denying that the paper was anti-SNP ?
There was also a guy on near the end who was a died in the wool Labour supporter, passionately so. That guy could have been me around 15 years ago, the SNP and independence were absolutely no-where on my radar.
How interesting would it be to have some in depth analysis carried out of the slow move from Labour to the SNP by people like me over the last decade or so.
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What on earth is a paper doing becomming a damn political campaing daily leaflet for? Why the Torys, I mean why? Why not promote decent values etc that they think "A", "ANY" government should adhere to?
Dooptydoopty dooptydoo, hmmmm, heads or tails?
Looks like the tories are going to win, sun is backing what it sees as the winner, end of!
I, personally don't relish the thought of being thatchered again! Nor even Majored! (Lets be honest, just plain westminstered!) Its a big price to pay for independence. Get this referendum going Alex, quick!
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gedguy2 at 199:
Was the word you tried to use an expression formerly used to denote merryment and happiness?
Talking of merryment:
The MOBO awards are to be held in Glasgow tonight, a celebration of 'black' inspired music.
The best new release is expected to go to Kenny MacAskill.
The worst re-release is expected to go to Gordon Brown.
The broken record award goes to Jim Murphy.
The (c)rapper of the year is Iain [wee willy winky] Gray for his version of "I don't like Thursdays'.
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#38
...we will never allow separatists or narrow nationalists in Scotland or in Wales to sever the common bonds that bring our country together as one.
Choked on my biscuit at this HOWLER,
Do you think Wales was thrown in to that statement to try to hide the fear over the referendum in Scotland?
Obviously the people have no say, Westminster will pick and choose what they ask the people about, just like the Lisbon Treaty.
Are we in 1930's Germany?
I wonder if any BBC Scotland Journalist (Brian/Glen/Graeme) will ask, Brown or Grey to expand on this point.... I do need a laugh.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again; but me thinks they didn't get the point of 1984...
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http:/www.pr-inside.com/glenlivet-discovery-successful-side-r1504362.htm
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"I've got an old-fashioned opinion that you look to newspapers for news not opinions." Said Gordon Brown today, on being ditched by the SUN newspaper.
Another lie from 'son of the manse' Gordon.
Does this also apply to The Daily Record, The Scotsman The Herald and BBC Scotland?
Every thing the Labour Party says has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Their dishonesty shines through every time.
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Regarding Broon's speech, he should just let his wife do the talking, because unlike her husband she seems to be an interesting person, with a good way of addressing the public, and a smile that's quite natural. I know her backgroud is PR. Gordon should follow her example, or maybe he is, but it's just not working.
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#15
Do you mean "hypocritic oaf", perhaps?
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205. U14094468
"How interesting would it be to have some in depth analysis carried out of the slow move from Labour to the SNP by people like me over the last decade or so."
It's exactly the sort of piece you'd expect a mature, responsible Scottish journalistic community to already have gotten round to. Shame that.
My teenage years were replete with Labour expectancy, and although it took me many years to move to the SNP, my disillusionment started a month or so before Blair's NuLab victory.
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#166
Very nasty indeed. A previous editorial team (Bob Bird and Andy Collier) were given ONE DAY to change the Sun from supporting the SNP to shooting it down. It took them TWO DAYS after a semi revolt in the office.
They didn't stay long after that.
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#204 Snowthisle
Thanks for sharing the info. As elections approach, it's amazing how little things like 'gas finds off the west of Shetland' get buried. Do we know estimated value of the find?
Perhaps you can help me on a similar theme......
I may well have dreamt this, but i'm pretty sure I read of a very large oil-find about 18 months ago, in the Atlantic, off the north-west of Shetland. If my memory is not playing tricks (and yes it's true, i'm not getting any younger), negotions were taking place between Ireland, Iceland and Scotland, regarding 'mapping' (i.e. divvying up) the field.
I have tried 'googling' but can't find anything - maybe i'm just beginning to lose the plot. (But usually, where there's gas, there's oil).
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# 207 U14094468
Indeed it was. The sad thing was that I was backing them and was telling you the reasons why. I think the mods just might be taking this a little too far. I am still waiting for the e-mail off them but it still hasn't turned up. I'll wait a bit longer and try and post it again from memory.
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# 201 Neil_Small147
As for the Sun's backing, it won't work in Liverpool. The Sun is not exactly the best selling paper there.
I was living in Liverpool at the time and, being a Liverpool supporter, we were all shocked at the stupid headline put out by the Sun. That also applied to the Everton supporters. I have never even picked up a Sun newspaper since and never will, even though the Sun very quickly backtracked and apologised.
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#103 gedguy2
"The Sun under Murdoch has never lost an election yet."
Maybe not, but I do remember their cynical ply to split the Labour vote in '93 when in England they were supporting the tories whilst in Scotland, they clasimed to be supporting the SNP/independence
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Time is running out for us all, never mind Labour and Brown !
For the most important issue in Brown's speech was the Economy as we all know. In this respect his main thrust was the government's innovation fund.
But where I have to say that the £1 billion innovation fund will do nothing for the economy and Britains' future. The reason, both Blair and Brown were advised in 1997/98 by many of the world's leading scientists, engineers and technologists but where they completely ignored their world leading advice. Another reason is that the government's innovation unit has people who do not understand the dynamics of innovation, have not the knowledge or skills to pick winning new technologies and cannot see the woods for the trees. We know as we dealt with them for two years and where career senior civil servants have not a clue about innovation. Indeed, the £1 billion fund will go the same way as the £15 billion spent by the regional development agencies over the past 7-years and where they have created nothing according to independent analysis. This study determined that they should be scrapped as it was a complete waste of money. The reason again, they have not the right people running the show who are competent in creating new industrial bases. So folks, don't put all your faith in this innovation fund as it will totally fail the British people as all others have done over the past 12 years. The 'old boy' network is still working well and where even a Linguist can still run such a fund as in the case of the NESTA if people investigate - the pre-runner that heralded so much in 1998 but created nothing of any real substance.
Dr David Hill - World Innovation Foundation
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@197
Gedguy wasn't being outraged ok your behalf.
Trying to be funny through the casual use of prejudice and innuendo just isn't something I will personally tolerate.
If giggles were one of my kids he'd be getting the full psychoanalytical treatment right now. Think a federal and request he considers his homophobic slip and apologise is fairly mild. If he continues to insist it is "what's right" then he has a serious problem to deal with.
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Ive just seen an advert for a new film that is due out
it is called "glencampbelly glenross"
on imdb it lists the plot line as being ;
Times are tough in a Scottish Media office; the reporters (Brin Shaylor), Glen camp belly , and Kevin Hikenzie are given a strong incentive by Gorgon Brown to succeed in a pork pie telling contest.
The prizes? First prize is a night with Mandy, second prize is a set of back stabbing knives, third prize is the sack!
There is no room for losers in this dramatically masculine world; only "liars" will get the good story leads.
There is a lot of pressure for the bankers to succeed, so a robbery is committed which has unforeseen consequences for all the characters.
out soon in a cinema near you
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