The Alex Salmond show
Notably sharp exchanges at first minister's questions on the issue of class sizes.
Labour's Iain Gray was succinct, pointed and pertinent. In response, Alex Salmond shone with his customary burnish.
He said that progress was being made year on year in trimming the numbers in individual class rooms.
He referred to the economic crisis. He challenged local authorities, notably Glasgow, to improve their performance - which should make for an entertaining exchange when he meets Glasgow council leader Steven Purcell this afternoon.
It was good, substantive stuff, powerfully delivered. However, there is still an underlying challenge facing Mr Salmond's government on this issue.
Cast an eye back to the SNP manifesto for the Holyrood elections in 2007.
Here's what they said on class sizes: "We will reduce class sizes in Primary 1, 2 and 3 to 18 pupils or less to give children more time with their teacher at this vital stage of their development."
Not "we will reduce class sizes" - if economic circumstances permit. Not - if the councils do their bit. And not "we will make progress year on year."
Appearing exercised
That may have been the tenor of the concordat with councils. It did not, however, feature in the manifesto upon which the SNP were elected.
Annabel Goldie also pursued the topic of class sizes.
Tavish Scott, fresh from Bournemouth, appeared exercised by the future of broadcasting.
Perhaps that's what happens when your party's internal policy disputes are shown live on telly.
Anyway, Mr Scott was decidedly droll on the likely TV schedule in an independent Scotland.
With an eye to the FM's speaking style, he suggested Mr Salmond would welcome the return of Grandstand.
FMQs would become "Only an Excuse". And the star of the Weakest Link? Fiona Hyslop, the Education Secretary.
Ouch and ouch
In response, Mr Salmond reckoned the Lib Dem leader had been indulging in the sea air and Pina Coladas.
But the best gag of the day undoubtedly goes to a sedentary heckler. (Sounded to me like Margo MacDonald - but undoubtedly she'll put me right one way or t'other.)
Answering a formulaic question about his engagements, Mr Salmond said he had no immediate plans to meet the Prime Minister.
Heckler: "Neither does Obama". Ouch. And, again, ouch.
Comments
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What kind of mentality seeks to dictate the future of broadcasting in Scotland on the premise that "we won't be able to see Eastenders"?
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"Cast an eye back to the SNP manifesto for the Holyrood elections in 2007.
Here's what they said on class sizes: "We will reduce class sizes in Primary 1, 2 and 3 to 18 pupils or less to give children more time with their teacher at this vital stage of their development."
Not "we will reduce class sizes" - if economic circumstances permit. Not - if the councils do their bit. And not "we will make progress year on year.""
You aren't seriously suggesting that manifesto pledges are to be followed regardless of contingent circumstances affecting them, are you?
Can you imagine the state of any country where mainfesto pledges were forced into place regardless of all other concerns?!
What is the underlying challenge, that there are people out there who just say 'it was a manifesto pledge' and magically, any reason for why the manifesto pledge hasn't been fulfilled isn't part of the discussion.
Wow!
Fine, they haven't yet met their pledge, they claim some circumstances hamper their efforts (refute that anyone?), they try to keep moving towards it. What else is it that they ought to do - admit defeat and beg the three sockpuppet opposition leaders to do the hard stuff for them, because the SNP can't manage?! Roll on the referendum, maybe we'll have to suffer less from journalists, opinion polls, and pundits...
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Brian, cast your mind back and name me a party in the Scottish Parliament since it's return that has managed to deliver every last "promise" from their manifesto aka their wish list or what they think we the great unwashed actually want to hear document?
The answer of course is none.
It didn't happen in the past 2 executive's both being labour /lib dem coalitions,because they had to compromise.
So now that we have a minority SNP government it is even less likely to happen.
Is this the best the opposition can come up with?
Do none of them have any new idea's??
Sid
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Brian,
Why is BBC Scotland still not publishing anything about the SG's Opportunities for Broadcasting discussion paper?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Pretty cowardly of the Minister to refuse to take part in the debate - I cannot recall a Minister of any Party, at either Parliament ever doing that before. How arrogant is the SNP these days to think taht their Ministers should not be held accountable?
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#2 mrbfaethedee
" Not "we will reduce class sizes" - if economic circumstances permit. Not - if the councils do their bit. And not "we will make progress year on year.""
Hey! your on a block grant budget, although there maybe movement with the interest rate, generally there is always a pre budget plan in line with the block grant.The truth being that the nats over shoot the grant and offered policies they couldn't deliver on.
The real sad thing is the mismanagement of the budget, which has led this finance minister to initiate the cuts war two years early with the cut of the GARL.
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Re 3
Sid the whole issue of class sizes is being abysmally handled by all parties. However I would challenge you where is the new thinking in the SNP ranks?
Where in John Swinneys budget is there a shred of new thinking on how to deal with the problems we face?
There is absolutely none.
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#3 "is that the best the opposition can come up with?"
The trouble is that not everyone will know or accept that previous manifesto pledges have been broken by the opposition parties. So it is the tactic of the media and the opposition to play this game and deliberately mislead the electorate. A case of gross dishonesty I suggest.
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The main problem with the commitment to class sizes of 18 in P1-P3 is that it no-one in the SNP did the sums (maybe because they hadn't anticipated being in government!). Even if councils could afford the extra teachers within the budgetary settlement and the diminishing returns from local taxation, there is no hope of them being able to afford the extra classrooms.
Smaller class sizes in themselves can only be a good thing, but maybe they shouldn't be the only game in town. Why not spend the same money trying out different approaches across the country to raising attainment in the early years and learn from the approaches which prove most effective?
Teaching the youngest pupils the basics is clearly a high priority - but are they the group who need the biggest investment? The OECD report on education in Scotland suggests that we do well at the early years and that we begin to dip in international comparisons around P5.
It's a real pity that this issue has been reduced to a debate around class sizes of 18 and the seriousness of the government in meeting that target. An open debate around the whole range of possible strategies which would help our children's achievement in primary schools would be more illuminating and more productive, but this would require public acceptance by government that the specific commitment is dead in the water (if only because of capital costs).
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Here's another manifesto pledge the SNP didn't keep: cancelling the Edinburgh trams. Why? Because the rest of the parties wouldn't let them, as they were more interested in constructing a white elephant than spending the money elsewhere (perhaps even -shock, horror! - north or south of the central belt...)
That would have freed up £600 million to use on their other pledges - that's not exactly small change. To be honest, I really don't see why Big Eck doesn't bring this up every time the SNP get accused of breaking manifesto promises. Plus, how were the SNP to know at the time that £500 million would get wiped off their budget due to the regulatory failures of the City of London?
A manifesto is a list of policies parties intend to implement, under the premise that they will have a working majority. There may be a good argument for all parties to be more realistic in what they try to offer (maybe even ranking commitments in order of priority or something like that), but I can't see it happening any time soon. Until then, it's quite ridiculous for a supposedly professional political journalist to be relaying these simplistic and frankly misleading comments about "broken" manifesto promises. Grow up and do your job properly.
As for Iain Gray's performance, I sometimes wonder if you know who Iain Gray is - he's that grey-haired man of limited vocabulary that asks the questions at FMQs for Labour. Today, he was pointlessly calling for yet another minister's head, in the latest stage of his playground politics game. What an absolute embarrassment. I know Scottish Labour has had 5 leaders in 10 years, but does he not realise that 2-year job expectancy is actually quite unusual in other parties?
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Brian,
I wish everyone would get real, about this and many other things.
It's not something where you can just flick a switch and magically all class sizes are 18 or less.
These things have to be phased in, don't they.
Teaching plans and school plans will all have to be adjusted to reduce the number of children in each class.
What would Labour have done - wave a magic wand, or just keep it quite for a while and don't do anything?
The fact is, Labour let Scottish schools, roads, rail and everything else fall into disrepair, and don't have anything new to add to the debate rather than the stuck record they've been playing in Scotland for the past 50 years.
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" Who should the parents blame for this mess? The cocky head boy Alex Salmond or his silent and wretched prefect, Ms Hyslop"
Annabel Goldie
Scottish Conservative leader
==================================
Does the utterly common and thuggish tongues of our so called representatives not bring you to despair.
No wonder no one has any respect for anything anymore if they have to witness this kind of muck.
And! Where on earth did she pick an eccent like that up from?
"Al be beck latur for my leptoap"
She can bring hollyrood to the depths of the sewers.
As for labour. Some of the sheer hatred they display and foul mouthed anger they express makes me wonder if they need therapy.
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Brian,
Has Ian Gray heard about his own parties plans south of the border to cut the education budget in England and Wales by £2 billion?
Will that not cause problems with class sizes down south.
You mentioned arithmetic in your last blog article. Wouldn't have thought that was one of your strong points. Is that a result of teaching under Labour rule?
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By the way, Deanthetory, there were some who thought that President Obama's return of the bust of Churchill from the White House was rude. I don't know why he did that.
The comment by a member of his administration prior to the visit of GB to Washington some SIX MONTHS ago that, “There’s nothing special about Britain. You’re just the same as the other 190 countries in the world. You shouldn’t expect special treatment.” Caught a fair amount of attention.
And some people say that repeatedly snubbing the leader of the ONLY country besides ours who also has large numbers of soldiers dying in Afghanistan is a bad idea--whether he's on his way out of office or not.
If you think our president has no feelings on what happened during the Mau Mau uprisings, you might want to read his book. I have. I suspect you have not.
Frankly, I wouldn't bring it up if the BBC weren't going on and on and on about how the only cause is al-Megrahi. If that's true, why was Mr. Obama publicly snubbing GB MONTHS before al-Megrahi. And if you think it wasn't considered snubs at the time, go back and read the coverage.
If you want to assume that my noticing such things means I'm prejudiced against the British, please feel free.
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"Labour's Iain Gray was succinct, pointed and pertinent."
I have to assume that the real Iain Gray has been abducted by aliens.
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Using words with a lower-case R followed by N is always prone to mis-reading (particularly in non-serif fonts) as M.
I had to peer closely at the screen to discern that the worn used in relation to Wee Eck was in fact "BURNISH"!
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Just a little reminder of the recent history of our "special relationship".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4623148/Barack-Obama-sends-bust-of-Winston-Churchill-on-its-way-back-to-Britain.html
Since BBC has a short memory.
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#5. At 2:45pm on 24 Sep 2009, WestFifer wrote:
Pretty cowardly of the Minister to refuse to take part in the debate - I cannot recall a Minister of any Party, at either Parliament ever doing that before. How arrogant is the SNP these days to think taht their Ministers should not be held accountable?
Yep, any time some guy walks up and says "Debate me" even if said guy is a loser who will likely soon be out of office, the FM is duty bound to accept said challenge.
SURE he is. ;-)
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lots of ideas for tavish Scott's TV channel; Dads army, are you being served?, The peril's of Penelope Pitt stop!, the likely lads!, Minder, Bill&Ben. feel free to put names to parts
Sid
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Alex dealt another crippling blow by the 3 stooges?
It's truly amazing that after having crippling blows dealt week after week by the "succinct, pointed and pertinant" Gray et al, that our Alex still seems to soar in the polls.
Maybe what the BBC (ahem!) "report" (ahem! ahem!) and what the people see are somewhat different?
Brian - surely you understand that people are not too interested in the small print of individual manifesto pledges? Especially those of a minority government with a hostile bloc opposition and even more hostile purse holder!
What they look for is progress and representation of their best interests, and that is what they are seeing - despite your best efforts to shroud it.
What do the opposition offer?
Serial wrecking and negativity. No positive alternative, and constant placement of London/Party/Union interests above those of the Scots they should be serving.
I fear their petty point scoring now actually is counter productive and counts against them with more and more Scots.
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#5 WestFifer
"Pretty cowardly of the Minister to refuse to take part in the debate"
Which minister? Which debate?
Some specifics would put your post in context. As it stands it references neither anything in Brian's text nor any previously published post.
BTW, anyone who missed FMQs live can now download them here.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#6 giggler
"The truth being that the nats over shoot the grant and offered policies they couldn't deliver on."
Not so. The truth is that the SNP are a minority government and have not been allowed to implement their manifesto by the unionist opposition, just as the previous coalitions were unable to implement all of the manifestos of their constituent parties.
This point has been made at length yet you offer nothing to refute it but simply parrot the same mantra as Mr Gray. That will hardly win friends for your side, whatever it is.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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9. Openminded_leftie
"It's a real pity that this issue has been reduced to a debate around class sizes of 18 and the seriousness of the government in meeting that target. An open debate around the whole range of possible strategies which would help our children's achievement in primary schools would be more illuminating and more productive"
This misses the point that smaller class sizes are a prerequisite for almost all of the "range of possible strategies" to which you refer. But I would certainly agree about how deeply regrettable it is that such issues are simplified to the point of meaninglessness in the name of petty politicking.
Or could it be that those who are so gleefully berating the Scottish government for this "failure" actually believed that a class size limit of 18 was both readily achievable and a device which, in itself, would transform primary education.
More rational beings would surely recognise such a measure as no more than an ambitious first step in creating an early school environment conducive to engaging children in the learning process and providing the essential foundation upon which a good education might be built.
Don't tell me we cannot afford to do this. We cannot afford not to.
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Brian:
‘Not "we will reduce class sizes" - if economic circumstances permit. Not - if the councils do their bit. And not "we will make progress year on year.’
If only politicians, economists, bankers, and BBC journalists’ et al had a crystal ball Rabbie Burns would never have written ‘The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft agley.’ If only.
A politician who demand life goes on as it did before the financial crash is being less than honest. With some of our politicians, is that possible?
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11. HughEdinburgh
"The fact is, Labour let Scottish schools, roads, rail and everything else fall into disrepair, and don't have anything new to add to the debate rather than the stuck record they've been playing in Scotland for the past 50 years."
They'll never learn maybe the unionists who voted for the trams should all resign as this is going nowhere fast.
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12. Phil_Anthropponent
"As for labour. Some of the sheer hatred they display and foul mouthed anger they express makes me wonder if they need therapy."
Send them to Massachusetts
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Why do I frequently pick up bugs on this site?
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7. At 3:02pm on 24 Sep 2009, northhighlander wrote:
Re 3
Where in John Swinneys budget is there a shred of new thinking on how to deal with the problems we face?"
Well, for starters he made some cuts due to the "real term" reduction in budget/poacket money. He has postponed the Glasgow airport link, for instance. Do you think he should not have done that?
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@5
What debate? This was FMQs.
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6. giggletheloneranger
"Hey! your on a block grant budget"
Doesn't that get doled out to local councils - who decide how to spend it? So, for example, council's can decide to cut their education budget.
Perhaps the SNP should put up, and try to make coucils move towards the government's stated policy aims stated policy by using the law - oh wait! They are!
They've put up, I wouldn't dream of suggesting you take the next step ;)
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when it comes to manifestos and the aforementioned breaking of, most of the electorate - regardless of media influence (the SNP did use the media to promote their pledges) - don't look at why they were not delivered, they looked at the fact they were not delivered.
we know the reasons here, but using the "it wasnt us" argument is a little bit repetitive. labour still use it!
parties seem to be afraid of caution. why not say "we intend to do this, but only if the country can afford it"
people give more credit for honesty.
and if tavish scott wants real humour, he could start by listening to nick clegg's speeches.
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9. Openminded_leftie
"Why not spend the same money trying out different approaches across the country to raising attainment in the early years and learn from the approaches which prove most effective?"
An excellent suggestion!
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David Maddox: At the risk of sounding like a cybernat
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BTW
"The Alex Salmond Show"
Class! Pure genius. Where do you get the literary talent from?
It never ceases to impersonate on me.
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Brian you are entirely correct in your analysis of FMQs
Goldie has proved the weakness inherent in the SNP.
Hyslop = failure as a minister. She has taken choice away from parents, she has abandoned the class sizes pledge (made by the SNP, only the gods know why however).
Salmond = egoism and bluster. He stands by his failed minister much like Major stood by his failed ministers. One wonders if Fiona 'weakest link' Hyslop will also disapear like Majors failed ministers did...
All in all, a bad day for Nat-Gov.
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5. At 2:45pm on 24 Sep 2009, WestFifer wrote:
I suppose you may have had a fair point there, but (I may be mistaken correct me if I'm wrong, which I doubt very much because I'm infullable), was it not FMQs generally and not a specific debate on education?
I do however think she should have been there. Mr Salmond maybe thought better of exposing her to the sheer lunatics and intellengce (not intelectually note, ask me why if you want) challenged people who grace the asylum that is hollyrood. The only people who seem to be able to conduct themselves in an almost civilised manner are the SNP. I have, unfortunately been saddened to witness that from time to time they do lose control too and almost resort to the same manner as opposition parties, and behave like desperate hungry lions baying over a piece of scrap meat, generally though their resolve is quite good. I hope they keep it for it has taken them a good way along the road. A devolved parliament? Throw some lose change in the gauntlet and watch them squirm over it more like.
Full independence is the only way to move fwd from this.
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9. At 3:11pm on 24 Sep 2009, Openminded_leftie wrote:
"The main problem with the commitment to class sizes of 18 in P1-P3 is that it no-one in the SNP did the sums (maybe because they hadn't anticipated being in government!). Even if councils could afford the extra teachers within the budgetary settlement and the diminishing returns from local taxation, there is no hope of them being able to afford the extra classrooms."
You make excellant points.
As Angus MacCloud explains, the SNP simply cannot avoid facing the facts. She is "hedged in", by the concordat (not SNP manifesto policy note, the classroom pledge was). Fiona "dunce" Hyslop is weak, because she will always be Salmonds fallguy- this first minister never accepts the blame...but he'l take the credit when its going.
But seriously, the pledge on classroom sizes is the first hy profile policy failure that the public seem to have picked up on. However remember there are plenty more high profile policies the SNP have failed to deliver, and their polling numbers from among the young is in free-fall....
Nat-Gov faces a serious crisis of credability.
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Cynical , that is shocking.
To think that Maddox was shocked by it makes one realise just how shocking that is.
Sadly , tell some folk a tale like that and they will believe it , never question source /veracity and the constant drip feed of similar tales by the media of Scotland is really criminal.
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# 14 JRMacClure
A story I was told by my father over a period of time about the Mau Mau may be of interest to you. keep in mind that I cannot get any evidence of this story and I've had to piece it together from my father after spending a lot of money on beers and rum for him while sitting in the pub with his friends. Maybe there are ex-Black Watch soldiers out there who can verify or deny this story, but here goes.
The Mau Mau attacked a farm and slaughtered all of them on the farm with their machettes, men, women and children. The Black Watch, from the information they acquired knew the village from where the Mau Mau came from and attacked that village. They slaughtered every man, woman, child and animal in that village and razed it to the ground. There was no more trouble in their area after that.
years after I managed to piece this story together I met a Kenyan woman in my pub who told me that her grandfather was in the Mau Mau. I told her the story I have just told you and she replied that, yes, it was a dirty war but dirty things were done by both sides. She accepted, as I did, that when wars happen, and more so in 'terrorist' types of war then things are done by both sides that are not 'normal' to everyday living. The British army were no saints but neither were the Mau Mau.
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Annabel pulls the same stunt every week. Her quips are not funny or even pertinent. They are childlike and immature, all designed to get a headline or a quote in the papers and the media duly oblige.
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#37 Deanthetory
Agreed Dean,There are many other SNP failures, just on the schools subject, what about the free meal disaster the SNP said they would introduce, not a bad thing within it's entirety but again another failed costed policy.
The SSP said it would only cost 1% of the budget, clearly it was 1% the nats couldn't understand.
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35. deanthetory
I would whisper in her ear "That it's snowing down south".
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40. At 5:46pm on 24 Sep 2009, hamish42
"Annabel pulls the same stunt every week. Her quips are not funny or even pertinent. They are childlike and immature, all designed to get a headline or a quote in the papers and the media duly oblige."
Screw your head back on and respond sensibly!
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#40 hamish42
Yes, it's a bummer but then if you are Tory, Green, Independent, LibDem or SNP you are not going to get a fair crack of the whip from our media. 50 years, of being told what to say, have had their effect and they're now like Pavlov's dogs, unable to think unless they've cleared it with Smith House.
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@33cynicalHighlander, thanks for that. It is indeed a sad day when even David Maddox is shaking his head at Labour tactics against the SNP.
As for you Brian, your description of Iain Gray's latest outburst at FMQ as "succinct, pointed and pertinent" recalls your glory days of lauding the risible performances of wee Wendy bring it oan in the same chamber.
Apart from your BBC colleagues and Labour themselves, no-one else could see the brilliance. Plus ca change.
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# 196 Sgt_Furry on 'Throw your hands in the air'
Well said. I tried to say something similar but my posting was moderated because, I assume, that they might have thought that I was trying to be a bigot, which is a bit hard for me as I'm an atheist and have no interest in which side of the fence people stand on; I believe they are both wrong. However, I am pleased to see that you have understood what I was attempting to put over.
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I am fed up with the opposition attitude of attacking the SNP, no matter what or why! Especially with the attitude of posters here who are critical of SNP policy, it's not politics but we should be discussing the choices that the SNP administration has made to help us through the recession.
It's crazy and more bluntly immature and childish. You, anti-SNP brigade WANT the Scottish Government to continue with manifesto commitments, you WANT the Scottish Government to protect our industries during the worst recession since the depression and then you WANT the SNP administration to ignore the fact that opposition have also 'had their say' on our budget which has taken money away from what the Government has, so they no longer can afford certain commitments!
It's pathetic as we should expect Governments to change their policies pending on circumstances. The leadership within the Liberal Democrats pointed out that in this type of world, they need to be ability to create policy based on recent circumstances and I would find it incredibly foolish for any political party to chase their own interests while ignoring whats really needed in this country!
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39. gedguy2
"The British army were no saints but neither were the Mau Mau."
The road to hell is paved with such moral ambivalence.
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You were doing so well, Brian, in your two previous blogs and now you are back again with an anti-SNP agenda. I'm sorry that you feel that you need to post a blog that is, in reality, a travesty of the truth. I would have hoped that you may of balanced your piece by explaining why the SNP are in this position. Instead you have just laid bare the barest of facts which you know, to those not of the political persuasion, will see as condemning the SNP. Sad, really.
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37. deanthetory
I'm curious to know what the Tories would have to do to elicit anything other than slobbering, sycophantic praise from you. I swear if your Aunty Bella wet herself you'd call it a brilliant political strategy.
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Nuclear waste leak into Clyde Fury over 2600-litre toxic spill from I would be more worried about this than class sizes.
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37. deanthetory
" But seriously, the pledge on classroom sizes is the first hy profile policy failure that the public seem to have picked up on. However remember there are plenty more high profile policies the SNP have failed to deliver, and their polling numbers from among the young is in free-fall...."
Got any hard data for that, Dean? Apart from in your own little leafy suburbs?
" Nat-Gov faces a serious crisis of credability."
And you would have a shred more credibility if you'd taken my advice re the spellchecker.....
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8271978.stm
can the green mob please allow us to have an intermediate source of power until we get our renewables up to speed?
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I noticed in the 'heraldScotland' site this article posted by someone else on the previous blog SNP reveals plans for new broadcaster to replace BBC Scotland
It states:
Although viewers in Ireland can currently access the BBC for free, it is possible viewers could be forced to pay two lience fees
More unionist scaremongering? I believe that BBC programmes can be picked up in Belgium and Northern France. I wonder how many French and Belgiums pay the BBC licence fee? I can just see the British courts sending them summonses to appear in court for not paying the fees.
Not only is this blatant scaremongering but it is also badly written with a multitude of spelling mistakes. Sad.
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#37 deanthetory
Calm down, dear, as the ad says. You should regard provoking a positive response from the giggler as a much more serious matter of concern.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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FMQ's
Was this political discussion or entertainment?
Certainly amused and bemused !
All of the other leaders performed ####,eh well!
Annabel in one of those "Carry on" films !
Tavish (I can't do humour) but I do try !
and Iain, Mr 12% (Presiding Officer-Please remind the
Chamber I AM NOT a Glasgow MSP)
Who prepared my joined-up questions ???
Must use them again !!!
This FMQ's (1st 15mins) should be repeated on the
Parliament Channel for yesrs to come !!!
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#51 cynical highlander - good point but what I can't understand is the locals have absolutely nothing to say about it.
they are too busy complaining about the building of a coal fired power station next door that they missed the fact that they were being polluted ONCE AGAIN by the nuclear nightmare that is already there.
Strange what some peoples priority's are ain't it!
Sid
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# 51 cynicalHighlander
Isn't it strange that according to this article:
They also demanded to know why the accident, on May 15, was kept secret for four months.
Could it be this Brown expands nuclear ambitions? Notice the date of the article and doesn't Gordon Brown's brother work for EDF? Isn't EDF the company that owns the Hunterston?
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Online Ed Here
Comment 54 gedguy2:
Just had a look at the article and you weren't joking about the spelling mistakes and general [bad] quality.
Here is an example EasterEnders
And this from a quality journal !!
Incidently, I see Taylor is back at his usual stunt of justifying Labour attacks, twas ever thus. Cast your mind back indeed Brian - to the 'Chisholm' moment.
He is freewheeling until retirement I think and doesn't want to rock the boat - that's for the up and coming younger reporters like Glenn 'caused outrage' Campbell.
I'm currently drafting a little piece based around our Glenn's recent away trip - isn't iplayer wonderfull?
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#55
Ah, Brownedove, the distant echo of obscurity.
Look, Mr indecisive, I thought you were going to ignore my post, Jeez!
just a pure nat by nature, say one thing then do the other.
The day you start being positive is the day I just may endorse one of your posts but until then Brown Stuff, its all, well you know what.
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Online Ed Here
Labour's Iain Gray
Not to be confused with the other Iain Gray?
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I do not see how any Government could have forseen the Economic crisis that mainfested itself in the Banking Crisis. This in turn leads to budgets being cut. Of course all of this will have a significant impact on any spending plans.
The real question is not has this manifesto target been met, but has there been progress towards it. I believe the answer to this is yes, we have smaller classes and a better teacher pupil ratio, so progress is being made. This latest piece of legislation is further movement in the right direction, legally reducing maximum class size in Primary 1 from 30 to 25, it should also be remembered that this is the first change in this statute in nearly 10 years. If the SNP Government can faulted it is perhaps for the scope of their ambition, personally I would rather they aimed high and risk falling short than only go for safe easily attainable targets.
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@Dean, Giggles et al.
Keep falling into the "same old, same old" trap of your much beloved leaders. As noted over half of councils are making progress on class size reductions in p 1-3.
This is no miss or failed objective but a meaningful change that through the use of concordat and patience will see an approach to continued improvements in educational provision in Scotland embedded in the psyche of our schools and local authorities. This by allowing ownership of the process and (to a meaningful extent) timing of policy delivery to rest with those responsible for delivery. This in stark contrast to standard political practices of those who believe in their own omnipotence. You may have noticed a distinct lack of fury from the Scottish Govt towards those "laggard" councils, this is consistent with such an approach as opposed to the demands for instant change and the initiative-itis that so wore out our schools, hospitals, police forces and public sector under successive Tory, labour, lib/lab governments.
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#54 gedguy2
Agreed. The Scotsman's "Salmond vision to replace the BBC" is along the same lines but marginally less awful. I find it astonishing that I can still find no mention of the document [see my #4 for link] on this website.
You'd have thought that BBC Scotland would have wanted to publicise PDQ: "The future of the BBC and the licence fee revenue raised within Scotland would be a major consideration in the move to an independent Scotland. It is envisaged that the existing assets, staff and expertise of BBC Scotland would be used as the basis of a Scottish national broadcaster, along with an appropriate share of the BBC’s other assets, including its commercial activities."
Obviously the fact that the report contains no fatwa against Glenn Campbell makes it too dull to be worth reporting.
In fact, the Herald and Scotsman reports deal only with a couple of paras from the 4 pages in the 30 page report, the rest of which I would have thought is largely uncontroversial even to "Scottish" Labour, or at least will be straight after the general election when they have no SoS to pull the BBC's strings.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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40. hamish42
"Annabel pulls the same stunt every week. Her quips are not funny or even pertinent. They are childlike and immature, all designed to get a headline or a quote in the papers and the media duly oblige"
I couldn't agree more. There was a time when I had some hopes that we might be seeing a new face of the Tory party under Ms Goldie. I am sadly disappointed. Good government needs strong effective opposition, on that point I think there is general agreement. There is little chance of that from Labour, they simply denigrate anything that is said from the Government side. That mob would argue black was white. Tavish and his rag-tag bunch are simply an irrelevance, so that leaves the Tories. And they are falling down miserably these days as well. What does it say about the Unionists when the only reliable chance of an effective countervailing point of view comes from Margo?
I suppose I just answered my own question, Margo believes she has the best interests of her constituents and the Scots in general at heart too. These are the only people Margo needs to justify herself to, unlike the rest of them. The way it should be for all our representatives.
Dean, re your 43 ... See me after, you know you are capable of better than that. An apology would not be out of place.
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You are a great political reporter, Brian.
Your offerings can making the boring bits of politics sound almost interesting, and your turns of phrase can raise a smile on the bleakest of days.
I like the sound of "Sir Brian Taylor".
May you be be-knighted early doors.
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#33 cynicalHighlander
What a shocking report! I responded to MCA999 on the last thread concerning the SNP "lied", because I dislike that kind of exaggerated nonsense about politicians. I don't think I've ever accused a politician of any party of "lying" - although all of them are selective with the truth!
However, it is clear that (unless Maddox is mistaken), the "L" word would be an appropriate term for Frank McAveety. As an ex-PT English, he is unlikely to have used language simply carelessly.
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Re 19 Sid
Again you criticise tavish for a lack of new thinking, where is the SNP new thinking?
Re 27
Oh dear you really do need a lesson in basic economics. Cutting the Glasgow rail works saves money in the years it is spent. It does not help the long term problem of trying to reduce year on year spending. It is a quick fix that leaves the problem for another day.
What John Swinney has done is a short term fix that means he doesn't have to make real decisions.
In no way can that be described as new thinking. In no way can that be described as innovative. It can be described as political expediency.
Many SNP sycophants berate the opposition for a lack of new ideas. There are a couple of points that should be remembered.
This is the first really difficult waters the SNP have ever been in. This is their first real test. What has their response been so far? A quick fix budget that doesn't deal with the problems. Then proceed to blame someone else for the mess.
Of course I forgot, Alec and John were never done warning everyone about the impending global crises weren't they? They seen it all coming, if only we had listened?
Truth is Alec was cosying up to Fred at every opportunity. He is as culpable as any other politician. So the SNP should be dealing with the reality of the situation.
People are starting to see through the charade, see the SNP for what they are, egotistical and power hungry. They would be far better being honest and dealing with the real issues.
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63. At 7:38pm on 24 Sep 2009, BlooToon
I am hardly falling into any 'trap'. I can read, and read I have, but the SNP manifesto doesnt say "we will work towards....", nor does it say "this is our asperation"....sorry but this is, not quite a U-turn, but a rocky moment for the SNP regime currently empowered.
This isn't the first time the SNP have watered down or abandoned their 2007 policies after they became exposed to the cold reality of governance.
I'm a student, my debt still isn't abolished. This is why Scottish voters between 18-34 are abandoning the SNP (for my figures supporting this claim see my blog: http://new-right.blogspot.com/2009/09/scotlands-youth-whats-their-preferences.html)
And what about the SNP pledge on social housing? Oh thats right- Swinney swindled the public on that one! What did he do to social housing for Scotlands most vulnerable and needy? He CUT, SLICED AND DICED the hopes and asperations of thousands with his £170milllions of cuts...
Now I understand that times are tough, but social housing isnt an area where savings are to be made- especially when the recession will pile more pressure on, on a problem already seriously ignored by ALL except Goldies Conservatives.
Why not abandon Salmonds vanity projects such as the SNPs 'national' conversation (national to the SNP, the majority of Scots arent invited- 'cos were all committed to putting Scotland first, within the Union)
...sorry but Goldie was right, Salmond needs to drop the ego, stop the bluster and face facts. Under the SNP seperatism is first, cutting social housing is the price Scotland has paid for this vanity project. And the not-so-national conversation is of highr importance to SNP supporters than maintaining high standards in Scotlands STAGNATING education system.
NOW FOR CHANGE
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# 64 Brownedov
Did the herald copy this from the Scotsman or vice versa? So much for investigative journalism.
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43. deanthetory
"Screw your head back on and respond sensibly!"
Just as you did, Dean, when you called Fiona Hyslop a "dunce"? What makes that accusation even more ridiculous is this collection of scholarly gems from the same post; "excellant", "fallguy", "credability", "their polling numbers...is in free-fall".
Something to do with class sizes? I doubt it!
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#69 Deanthetory
Come and join us! Come and join us! Dean are you sure your a tory, I've never ever met a tory I could agree with.
Delighted you stated the student debt fact.
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# 59 U14094468
I wonder if the BBC Scotland journalists(?) already had an inkling that this was going to happen if/when Scotland gets its independence and this is why they are desperate to make sure that Scotland doesn't achieve this? It would make sense to me. Does this mean that the UK BBC would 'dump' the Scottish journalists if independence happens? Oh dear, what a shame this would be, not!
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71. At 8:24pm on 24 Sep 2009, albamac
"Just as you did, Dean, when you called Fiona Hyslop a "dunce"? What makes that accusation even more ridiculous is this collection of scholarly gems from the same post; "excellant", "fallguy", "credability", "their polling numbers...is in free-fall"."
Well first thanks for reading my posts.
Secondly, its nice to see your able to spot my bloopers- but its hardly all that important- unless your trying to escape the central issue---why has the SNP watered down on education?
The answer is simple: Seperatism, and Salmonds vanity projects are more important to people of your mind than the slashing and burning of social housing budgets, of education policy.
Thirdly, I do apologise for my response r.e. 43, but not to you (its none of your business frankly), but to hamish42
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35. deanthetory
"Brian you are entirely correct in your analysis of FMQs
Goldie has proved the weakness inherent in the SNP.
Hyslop = failure as a minister. She has taken choice away from parents, she has abandoned the class sizes pledge (made by the SNP, only the gods know why however).
Salmond = egoism and bluster. He stands by his failed minister much like Major stood by his failed ministers. One wonders if Fiona 'weakest link' Hyslop will also disapear like Majors failed ministers did...
All in all, a bad day for Nat-Gov. "
"proved the weakness inherent in the SNP" !!!
What, by name calling?
Goldie has proved nothing except that her stock sinks further each week.
She is a charicature of herself now, same old 'style' no substance.
So - no limit to class sizes deanthetory? Parent's choice and all that - of course! straight out the consumer-controlled notions in your conservative party's manifesto, parents as consumers of education services - is that how you like to think of yourself deanthetory, a consumer?
Someone's a failure because you say so often enough?!
Salmond is a poo-poo head! Is this to be your contribution to the future of your conservative party in Scotland? Excellent!
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37. deanthetory
But seriously, the pledge on classroom sizes is the first hy profile policy failure that the public seem to have picked up on. "
I take it that because it suits you just now that media=public.
"Fiona "dunce" Hyslop"
Classy analysis dimthetory! I see you follow your leader in the race to new levels in sophisticated political discourse.
Keep going deanthetory, then we'll all chip in for a tank of mud and get you and giggles to wrestle.
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# 48 Electric Hermit
Fair point.
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69. deanthetory
"Why not abandon Salmonds vanity projects such as the SNPs 'national' conversation... "
Again you flaunt the blind prejudice of the unreflective ideologue. While you bleat pathetically about the national Conversation, not a word about the Calman Commission which cost at least as much as the official consultation exercise; attracted negligible participation; was explicitly biased; and whose recommendations have been disowned even the devious and despicable Tory/BLP alliance which contrived it in the first place.
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60. giggletheloneranger
"I just may endorse one of your posts"
good grief.
Is Frank Oz making yout type?
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63. BlooToon
Well put.
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74. deanthetory
"Thirdly, I do apologise for my response r.e. 43, but not to you (its none of your business frankly), but to hamish42"
Yes sir! This is a public forum if you wish a private debate this isn't the conservative private club.
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75. At 8:45pm on 24 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"So - no limit to class sizes deanthetory? Parent's choice and all that - of course!"
I believe in limitations to class sizes, but I do not hold that ever smaller class sizes below 30 is the highest priority for the Scottish eduation system.
You may, and your entirely fairly entitled to hold that view. But it is not mine- please also do me the dignity of equally respecting my right to prioritise other areas in need in Scotlands education system.
Choice:
What is wrong with providing parents with the choice of schooling for their child? I believe that poorer kids shouldnt be kicked into any old school, with powerless parents because they cant afford to go private.
I want, I demand that funding follow the child, that poorer childrens families get bursaries to pay for the uniforms etc so that these parents als enjoy the RIGHT to send their kids to Scotlands finest schools.
Why do you believe that poorer kids and their families shouldnt have the right to also shop around for a school which meets their desires? Why do you seek to entrench class privilige, by holding to the view that only the rich families should be able to select a school, rather than be 'placed'?
I seek to return power to the people, provide equality of opportunity- you seem to seek equality of outcomes. Why not ask those old enough to remember Labours' Britain when such notions held sway! IMF, downgraded credit ratings, the sick man of europe, the dead unburied.
No, never NEVER again. We demand freedom for all, not just the view.
Now for change.
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gedguy2 @73
How can there be a future for the BBC when the United Kingdom ceases to exist ?
No Brown's Broadcasting Cronies days are numbered and if STV goes bust can we as Scots pool our resources to buy the name?
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57. sidthesceptic
58. gedguy2
They don't see dirty smoke coming out of a chimney so they think that its clean and safe.
The MP who championed/pushed nuclear energy is giving up politics as he has got a plum director's job with EDF.
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78. At 9:00pm on 24 Sep 2009, Electric Hermit
"not a word about the Calman Commission"
The Calman commission isn't at the heart of this governments policies, the 'national conversation' is however. The SNP have decided to cut the social housing budget by £170milllions, because they wont cut their 'national conversation'- Calman isnt the issue, it isnt because of Calman that the cuts are more severe than they otherwise would have to be. Its because of the SNP 'national conversation'.
This isn't being ideological- it is disagreeing with the SNPs' priorities for cuts. It is kind of important for democracy you know.
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78. At 9:00pm on 24 Sep 2009, Electric Hermit
"...was explicitly biased"
If you want a conversation about Calman, I agree that it was bias, lacking in imagination and should have went much much further.
I wanted it to recommend fiscal autonomy, it didnt.
I wanted it to be forum for Scotland to decide the way forward- it didnt.
I wanted every Scottish political party to be apart of it- the SNP refused to contribute.
So yes, the Calman isnt all that good, but it isnt the cause of social housing cuts- because it isnt being prioritised by the SNP over provision for those most in need.
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67. oldnat
"I don't think I've ever accused a politician of any party of "lying" - although all of them are selective with the truth!"
The trouble is under newlab they have been so blatant with there contorted facts that it will get harder to keep a clean sheet.
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Online Ed Here
Anyone else hear about the US senate apparently condemning the release of Megrahi?
I have my suspicions that all may not be exactly as the BBC reported. I could be wrong which is why I've emailed the Associated Press in New York.
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#73
"I wonder if the BBC Scotland journalists(?) already had an inkling that this was going to happen if/when Scotland gets its independence..."
I don't think there is any doubt about that and just for that reason the BBC has been activating against the SNP ever since it was elected (remember Glenn tearing up the SNP manifesto).
There have been a few road signs along the way, like the Broadcasting Commission's report, Salmond's attack on the London-centric BBC and Mr McQuarrie getting a ticking off from Salmond for preventing Ian McWhirter from being invited onto news programmes because he gave a critical response to the Broadcasting Commission about BBC Scotland.
BBC Scotland's journo's coats are on shoogly pegs right enough.
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88. U14094468
"Anyone else hear about the US senate apparently condemning the release of Megrahi?"
Yes a couple of days ago I think, I will try and find a link.
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#68 north highlander. good evening sir/madam ,
firstly if you were to read my post, what i was asking was were there any charachters in any of the programmes that i listed that any of our MSP's could play due to them having the same characteristics.funnily enough just carrying on where tavish left off.
Secondly I am not the highly paid politician who is not performing to the standard that the electorate should be demanding!
Thirdly, don't ask me what the new ideas are, try asking the estate agents ,the lawyers,the surveyors and the police to name but a few where SNP policy's have changed their practices in my opinion for the better.
And finally I am not a member of any political party , I just dislike the Labour party with the same ferocity that glen Campbell dislikes the SNP.
Difference is, he gets paid to broadcast his bile to the nation.
Sid
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88. U14094468
Senate condemns release of Lockerbie bomber
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69. deanthetory
"I am hardly falling into any 'trap'. I can read, and read I have, but the SNP manifesto doesnt say "we will work towards....", nor does it say "this is our asperation"....sorry but this is, not quite a U-turn, but a rocky moment for the SNP regime currently empowered."
Go on then, show us all the manifesto commitments from other governments that just magially get implemented with a snap of the fingers. BlooToon's excellent post should make some of the reality of the process clear.
"This isn't the first time the SNP have watered down or abandoned their 2007 policies after they became exposed to the cold reality of governance."
Minority government in dealing with reality shocker!!!
Tell people what you want to do, try to do what you can. I'm clearly stupid, that seems clear and obvious strategy.
If you respond to this post in any part, tell me this - when a party tells the electorate what it will seek to do in power, and in power it cannot deliver on some of its proposals - what are you advocating they do instead deanthetory?
"I'm a student, my debt still isn't abolished. This is why Scottish voters between 18-34 are abandoning the SNP (for my figures supporting this claim see my blog: http://new-right.blogspot.com/2009/09/scotlands-youth-whats-their-preferences.html)"
So, you've got a poll that shows a higher saturation of young tories in YouGov? Awesome! Have you all got Hague style baseball caps? :)
"And what about the SNP pledge on social housing? Oh thats right- Swinney swindled the public on that one! What did he do to social housing for Scotlands most vulnerable and needy? He CUT, SLICED AND DICED the hopes and asperations of thousands with his £170milllions of cuts..."
It is a real shame that the social housing budget got cut. I expect the SNP to get this back on track at the earliest opportunity, they better be actively seeking ways. Trying to reinstate our affordable social housing stock is very important. I wish someone could tell us where all the affordable social housing stock has gone - deanthetory?
"Now I understand that times are tough, but social housing isnt an area where savings are to be made- especially when the recession will pile more pressure on, on a problem already seriously ignored by ALL except Goldies Conservatives." If social housing is needed the most when times are tough - why did your conservative party intitiate 'right to buy' while Thatcher was creating as many 'needy and vulnerable' as she could in Scotland deanthetory?
"Why not abandon Salmonds vanity projects such as the SNPs 'national' conversation (national to the SNP, the majority of Scots arent invited- 'cos were all committed to putting Scotland first, within the Union)
"
You weren't invited 'cos you didn't want to go !?! Untie yourself.
"...sorry but Goldie was right, Salmond needs to drop the ego, stop the bluster and face facts. Under the SNP seperatism is first, cutting social housing is the price Scotland has paid for this vanity project. And the not-so-national conversation is of highr importance to SNP supporters than maintaining high standards in Scotlands STAGNATING education system.
"
Independence isn't a vanity project, and the party that has it as their defining feature was voted in as the largest party in this country. How much did you Calman vanity project cost?
What exactly is a stagnating education system? - i assume that (agaisnt all convention) you chose your words carefully and it's all uppercase, so please indulge me in an explanation, it's such a singular description.
"NOW FOR CHANGE "
From the conservative party! lol!
I hope you're at least hothousing with others, and you're not sitting in your room like some cultist, cranking yourself to fever pitches of delusion.
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#69 deanthetory and #72 giggle
Care to explain the student debt comment? As far as I was aware the graduate endowment has been scrapped, so to what other debt do you refer to that the SNP is responsible for eradicating other than the now defunct graduate endowment?
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@dean
Appreciate your activist hat on but (and this is why you and yours will continuevto miss the target) the Scottish Government is offering an alternative to the quick hit "do it our way and do it now!" mantra of previous governments who just didn't trust local bodies to deliver. That approach has been seen as discredited, what is now on offer is managed and embedded change. It may not be happening to a shackled timetable to suit old fashioned political automatons but even the erstwhile labour leaning COSLA has shown an understanding and approval for the removal of ring fencing and the concordat agreement. Real change, the opportunity for local decision making on the speed and mechanisms to implement national policy and an end to the name calling.
The performances of the opposition show they as yet gave to grasp the "new politics".
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85. deanthetory
"...it isnt because of Calman that the cuts are more severe than they otherwise would have to be. Its because of the SNP 'national conversation'."
The prejudice is more blind than I thought. If the same amount of taxpayers' money was spent on both the Calman Commission and the Naational Conversation, how can only one of them have been respo0nsible for depriving some other budget of funds? You make no more sense than the average unreflective ideologue.
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#69 deanthetory
"This is why Scottish voters between 18-34 are abandoning the SNP"
It really isn't as simple as that, Dean. I've looked at your blog and see you're basing this on two late August YouGov polls for the UK parliament.
First, both the polls you use were taken when the media were still pushing the anti-MacAskill line for all they were worth, which must have had some albeit temporary influence on the numbers.
Second, and more importantly, irrespective of their actual political allegiance many Scots seem genuinely confused on who to vote for in general elections, many apparently being convinced of the need to vote NuLab in order to keep Cameron out or Tory to end the nightmare of Duff Gordon. The next few weeks of party conferences may help to settle this, and the remainder of this year almost certainly will.
IMO, the numbers for Holyrood plurality seat voting is much more indicative of "underlying" allegiance, and they're much more stable, too. The latest YouGov poll on that completed sampling of 1556 Scots on 2 September and has numbers of:
18>34, 35>54, 55+, Overall, Party
32%, 32%, 41%, 36%, SNP
28%, 32%, 25%, 28%, Lab
16%, 15%, 17%, 16%, Con
15%, 14%, 13%, 14%, L-D
9%, 7%, 4%, 7%, Other
Plugged in to http://www.scotlandvotes.com/ the YouGov numbers predict a 2011 Holyrood of:
SNP 45
Lab 38
Con 22
L-D 16
Other 8
Not exactly what any party wants to hear, I suspect, but hardly indicative of an SNP meltdown and with plenty of time for change before May 2011.
Let's wait until after all the party conferences for a new YouGov Scotland poll before getting too excited about the forthcoming general election.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Army chief quits suddenly as protests over troops mount
Mutiny in the army under a PM who needs to bring all troops home from his illegal wars.
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Cynical Highlander @ 92
How much credibility has Uncle Sam outwith Israel,England and the USA?
About the same as a 12bob note.
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#69 deanthetory
Your link to the polls supporting your statement about young voters support for a particular party put Labour at the top with the SNP and the Tories on level pegging, do you think that reflects the political reality or affect the outcome at an election?
Also, this article comes from a website dedicated to harmonising two nations within the union, sounds just like your cup of tea. Goes hand in hand with your othe affirmation: 'national to the SNP, the majority of Scots arent invited- 'cos were all committed to putting Scotland first, within the Union'
I'm not much older than yourself, so you're righteous idignation when claiming to speak for the young of the nation does irk at times. How about you express your opinion as opposed to speaking for all young voters in future please.
Firstly, you know that not all Scots are committed to yhe Union. Secondly, I think you're confusing Calman with teh national conversation, as all Scots can take part in the latter whilst those desiring an independent Scotland were overlooked by the former.
"Calman isnt the issue, it isnt because of Calman that the cuts are more severe than they otherwise would have to be. Its because of the SNP 'national conversation'."
I'm afraid Calman is an issue with regards to how Scotland progresses as it did not take into account all views but was rather narrow in scope. Also, you'll probably be the only one on here thinking that the cuts which are required in the current economic climate, in light of reduced funding from Westminster, have come about due to the national conversation.
To refute another of your assertions, the SNP did in fact contrubute to Calman, however if I remember correctly not all of the union parties did.
May I also ask why we should implement the right to choose schools as opposed to raising standards across all? No matter how good a few schools are not all pupils can attend them, not exactly a choice for all then is it Dean? Surely it's better focussing policy on how to raise standards in all schools with this in mind.
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http://order-order.com/2009/09/24/obama-too-busy-to-see-brown/
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Salmond swats Gray.
Moisture falls from the sky.
Grass grows quietly on suburban lawn.
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'John Smeaton. Jury Team. Glasgow North East'
via OLDHOLBURN.
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#97 Brownedov
thanks for the breakdown. When you say "I've looked at your blog", any chance you mean it is actually Dean's own blog? Looking at the blog synopsis and article headings it certainly looks like it could be.
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82. deanthetory
""So - no limit to class sizes deanthetory? Parent's choice and all that - of course!"
I believe in limitations to class sizes, but I do not hold that ever smaller class sizes below 30 is the highest priority for the Scottish eduation system."
Sorry, you don't believe in infinitely smaller class sizes? Or you don't believe in class sizes below 30, or you do, but you wont say what figure, and anyway it's not a priorty for you.
Tell me the limitations in class sizes you believe in.
"You may, and your entirely fairly entitled to hold that view. But it is not mine- please also do me the dignity of equally respecting my right to prioritise other areas in need in Scotlands education system.
You didn't mention prioritsation (you were busy calling people names), you said - "she has abandoned the class sizes pledge", so don't start turning up the dial on your faux righteous indignation meter.
Choice:
What is wrong with providing parents with the choice of schooling for their child? I believe that poorer kids shouldnt be kicked into any old school, with powerless parents because they cant afford to go private.
"I want, I demand that funding follow the child, that poorer childrens families get bursaries to pay for the uniforms etc so that these parents als enjoy the RIGHT to send their kids to Scotlands finest schools."
What ALL OF THEM!!! How will you fit them in? Any parent can take their child and demand they be put into the school of their choice (private too), and the school has to allow it? Is this your conservative party's policy?
"Why do you believe that poorer kids and their families shouldnt have the right to also shop around for a school which meets their desires?"
I aspire to a system any family should find the that school that is on their doorstep is the school that meets their desires. I can't imagine what perverse line of reasoning would lead you to any other aspiration.
"Why do you seek to entrench class privilige, by holding to the view that only the rich families should be able to select a school, rather than be 'placed'?"
You may posit whatever beliefs you wish to me, that they are wrong (even where purposely so) only disengages you from reality. You're well on the way to fitting the politician stereotype if you persist.
"I seek to return power to the people, provide equality of opportunity- you seem to seek equality of outcomes. Why not ask those old enough to remember Labours' Britain when such notions held sway! IMF, downgraded credit ratings, the sick man of europe, the dead unburied."
I remember Conservative Britain which followed, it's effects are still here in Scotland. We all share the experience of the subsequent Labour government which followed. It should be enough to put anyone off the union.
"No, never NEVER again. We demand freedom for all, not just the view.
Now for change."
Roll on the referendum.
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104. ScotInNotts
Yes, it's deanthetory's blog, which is why he made you click on the link to it rather than simply putting the figures in his comment.
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#69 Really Dean, calm down and take your medication.
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74. deanthetory
"Well first thanks for reading my posts."
Of course, Dean, I read what everyone writes. How else could I respond intelligently?
"Secondly, its nice to see your able to spot my bloopers- but its hardly all that important- unless your trying to escape the central issue---why has the SNP watered down on education?"
No, I'm just exposing you for what you are! Another loud-mouthed, semi-literate, unionist who pretends to be open-minded and even-handed until party loyalty forces your gums to the glass and the venom pours out.
"The answer is simple: Seperatism, and Salmonds vanity projects are more important to people of your mind than the slashing and burning of social housing budgets, of education policy."
More unionist bilge and stupidity! My mind is my own! Yours, on the other hand, is party political play-doh. Why else would anyone in their right mind parrot the nonsense that you subject us to with such monotonous regularity. I could, certainly, broaden your education on Social Housing but why would I want to bother? What are the buzzwords for this discussion - cuts and separation? How original! Separate the Tory tubes from your brain, Dean! Independent thought is good for the soul - give it a go!
Here we are, talking about education and you have the temerity, given your obvious lack of it, to insult everyone's intelligence by pouring scorn on others.
I know you're young, Dean, but I think your allowance is fast running out. The pity of it is that you seem to be incapable of learning anything. That's why "people of your mind" have neither the wit nor wisdom to understand why it will never be a good idea to accuse anyone of "slashing and burning" anything whilst you support the party that did just that to your own country. You weren't at all shy about telling us how the 'memory' of an incident that took place before your birth motivated your rage over the release of al Megrahi. Those of us who lived through the Thatcher years will never forget the destruction, disenfranchisement and despair that came in the wake of Tory victory in another country.
If that's the height of your ambition then I can't even say I pity you for, in my eyes and the collective memory of Scotland, you and your party are less than nothing but I'm sure that the vanity and ego that you so despise in others will, at some point, motivate you to post yet more of your Stats for Prats to demonstrate the depth of your delusion.
"Thirdly, I do apologise for my response r.e. 43, but not to you (its none of your business frankly), but to hamish42"
When you air your views in a public forum, they become everyone's business! Try to think things through, once in a while.
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97. At 9:55pm on 24 Sep 2009, Brownedov
"Plugged in to http://www.scotlandvotes.com/ the YouGov numbers predict a 2011 Holyrood of:
SNP 45
Lab 38
Con 22
L-D 16
Other 8"
Those make interesting numbers brownedov! When you say "Not exactly what any party wants to hear" your not speaking for me! I love hearing that we may have 22 Scottish Conservative MSPs- that would be our highest number since devolution. I'd be very content with that.
And if the people of Scotland voted for 45 SNP MSPs then I'd be equally content to accept this. The people would have spoken.
"the numbers for Holyrood plurality seat voting is much more indicative of "underlying" allegiance, and they're much more stable, too"
More stable? Why? (genuine question, no agenda- this is my interest)
But those figures are fascinating, but I hold that YouGov is by far the most reliable pollster for demonstrating quick changes of public opinion. Perhaps that defends your point that Yougov polls I used were indications of 18-34 year olds views as the Megrahi fallout was happening (I did mention that in my blog to be fair).
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#94
Push Scotland's debt, 2009 release, 231 respondents, £2,194 average debt per year, £9,844 projected debt on graduation. Survey done Aug 2009.
Hardly an end to student debt and don't forget the outstanding 2Bn, accumulative debt still hasn't been cleared.
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#88 U14094468 &
#92 cynicalHighlander
The Library of Congress THOMAS site has the full US Congressional Record (a bit like Hansard), but doesn't seem to use "fixed" URLs. The following is from the record for 23 September 2009:
S. Res. 253 Resolved, That the Senate--
(1) condemns the August 20, 2009, release from prison in Scotland of Abdel Baset al-Megrahi, the lone person convicted in connection with the 1988 bombing of a Pan Am flight over Lockerbie, Scotland, that killed 270 people, including 189 Americans;
(2) condemns the lavish welcome home ceremony held in Tripoli, Libya, to celebrate the release of Mr. al-Megrahi; and
(3) calls on the Government of Libya to apologize for the public celebration of Mr. al-Megrahi's release.
Odds that it condemns neither the UK nor Scottish governments but merely the release.
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100. At 10:05pm on 24 Sep 2009, ScotInNotts
"May I also ask why we should implement the right to choose schools as opposed to raising standards across all?"
Ah, the triumph of mediocrity- not your intention I accept, but I believe it would be/is being the natural outcome. A bit like how Cameron endlessly parrots on about "making every school a grammar school" (tosh).
108. At 10:25pm on 24 Sep 2009, albamac
"No, I'm just exposing you for what you are! Another loud-mouthed, semi-literate, unionist who pretends to be open-minded and even-handed until party loyalty forces your gums to the glass and the venom pours out."
That hurts.
"Those of us who lived through the Thatcher years will never forget the destruction, disenfranchisement and despair that came in the wake of Tory victory in another country."
Interesting wording. What "other country"? I do believe she was elected by the United Kingdom. She wasnt standing for election in another country.
But your actual point about lack of a Scottish mandate is fair enough. But this really only applies after 1987, because 1979 does represent a bit of a renaissance for the party, and we only lost 1 MP in 1983.
But yes, regions of the UK perhaps didnt elect a tory, but then neither has regions within Scotland ever elected a Nationalist. So I fail to see past your clear double standards here.
"...yet more of your Stats for Prats to demonstrate the depth of your delusion."
'Stats for prats'. Sigh. I agree with Brownedov that the stats I provided were perhaps tainted by the Megrahi fallout (it was August afterall), but I acknowledge and point that out on my blog (and I point out that it was my blog when introducing the link mrbfaethedee)
So, your correct to question aspects of the polling as a perminant truth, but they still represent a backlash against SNP party policy in government, even if only for August. I fail to see any stats of your own refuting any of this. I respect and like Brownedov because he posts detailed, expert replies- you seem obsessed with my literary skills (thank you I'm touched by your concern for my education, but really this isnt the forum for a grammer lesson is it?)
respectfully
Dean
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74. deanthetory
"Seperatism, and Salmonds vanity projects are more important to people of your mind"
I take it that this was intended as a slap-down! Dean's deft defence of the Union dismisses another rabid cybernat! Is that it?
I've posted ten messages to BWB since August 31st and that, for me, is a flurry of activity! Let's take a poll, Dean! Is that above or below average for members of the mythical group you refer to as people of my mind?
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66. MacScroggie
"You are a great political reporter, Brian.
Your offerings can making the boring bits of politics sound almost interesting, and your turns of phrase can raise a smile on the bleakest of days.
I like the sound of "Sir Brian Taylor".
"
MacScroggie, do you also use the alias R. Slicker?
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Online Ed Here
cynicalHighlander 92:
Yes, the link you supply is the press release from The Associated Press - everyone carried precisely the same statement and attributed it to AP. I have reason to believe that it is inaccurate and no such official condemnation of the release actually happened, but I need to be sure.
Fiona Hyslop:
As expected the BBC have gone into overdrive in attacking the SNP at Holyrood. The item on the 22:25 news was the now familiar over the top propaganda piece [and juvenile at that] with cameras apparently searching for the 'missing' Fiona Hyslop.
Strange then when FMQ's was shown the camera's focussed on ..... Fiona Hyslop.
As I said earlier, the BBC news department in Scotland have become a de-facto Unionist opposition party. I consider them to be the main opposition to the Scottish Government - Labour are dead.
View them as that and the news reports are not surprising at all, the unfortunate thing is they are funded by us but are not answerable. However, like many political parties their manipulation of news and portraying of events has to be challenged.
Radio Scotland last week broadcast a claim that the National Conversation had cost £8 million - Glenn Campbell repeated the claim in mock surprise but didn't correct it (actual cost around £700,000). It is this sort of stuff that should be highlighted repeatedly.
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#104 ScotInNotts
"When you say "I've looked at your blog", any chance you mean it is actually Dean's own blog?"
Obviously I cannot be 100% sure, but all the biographic information corresponds to Dean's previous posts so yes. Quite a few BBC blog regulars have http://www.blogger.com/ blogs.
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112. deanthetory
"(and I point out that it was my blog when introducing the link mrbfaethedee)"
Easy tiger!
I didn't claim you didn't. I confirmed that it was your blog and asserted that you included the link rather than the stats themselves in order to generate site traffic. No biggie, calm down.
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111 Brownedov
Interesting post, my search uncovered the Senate business of the 23rd Sept and it contained the wording of the resolution, I reproduce it below.
Unanimous Consent:
Adopted S. Res.253, is a resolution expressing the sense of the Senate that the Government of Libya should apologize for the welcome home ceremony held to celebrate the release of convicted Lockerbie bomber Abdel Baset al-Megrahi
No mention of the release, if it was contained in the resolution then it wasn't deemed important.
If yours is the definitive wording then the reports are accurate, if not then the reports are inaccurate.
Your point that it is the release it condemns is critical, and this is to be expected, we already know that the US authorities publicly disagree with the decision. The timing of this vote though is clearly aimed more at Gadaffi's arrival than anything to do with the Scottish Government.
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Apart from party political bickering, it's possibly a good time to look at the whole question of election manifestos in the context of the Scottish multi-party system.
The first election manifesto that I can find (though someone will correct me!) is Daniel O'Connell's Election Manifesto, 1828, which was simply a letter to the voters, dealing with a single matter of major principle. Party manifestos during the Left/Right battles of the period 1945 - 79 tended to focus on the big issues.
Now, apart from the constitutional question, we get managerial issues like class size - as if that should ever have been an issue for central government.
Next time round, as well as the constitution, lets have focus on the big issues - do we go back to Labour micro managing everything from the centre through ring fenced budgets, or stick with Covenant with the LAs and let them get on withit.
To show their honesty, a decent manifesto would say "This is what we'll do if we get a majority. If we are not, then these are the kind of policies we will try to build into consensus arrangements with other parties."
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Re my 119 Correction - Concordat
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Dean the tory is an interesting case. He tries most of the time to sound reasonable, revises remarks he has recently made when they are readily demolished and falls over himself to radiate an anti Thatcherite demeanour. He is easy meat for the more practised posters on this blog who pick many of his post to pieces with consumate ease.
Then every now and then, perhaps after an evening down the union, we get the real Dean and it's not a pretty sight. In particular we get a tranche of old fashioned Tory prejudices paraded as policies and simplistic attacks on a range of policy positions of the SNP government which expose a shocking lack of any real understanding of the difficulties of government.
It is so long, of course, since the Tories actually had any real power in Scotland he can be partially excused this ignorance but I get the feeling that deam the tory would be none the worse living for a few months in Easterhouse on the pathetic level of benefit our unemployed young people recieve.
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110. At 10:27pm on 24 Sep 2009, giggletheloneranger
i suggest you look at the true cost to the taxpayer of supporting a student through a four year degree course.
but if you wish to fund a student through their course, then make the money accountable - ie expenses.
dean - why describe fiona hyslop as a dunce? to some people she may not be performing her role efficiently, but that is no reason to resort to schoolboy insults. if you must criticise at least be constructive. education is a difficult role for any minister. at least give her a chance.
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As well as the promise to cut class sizes to 18 I think we also need to remember another part of the SNP manifesto, namely "We will maintain teacher numbers in the face of falling school rolls in order to reduce class sizes". Fiona Hyslop told us that "special provisions" were put into place within the budget agreement reached between the Scottish Government and Local Authorities. Unfortunately she appears not to have told the Local Authorities this. The credit crunch can not be blamed for the failure of Local Authorities to deliver on this. East Lohian (maj SNP) dumped this policy within days of gaining power, long before the term "credit crunch" had ever been uttered. They continued to cut tachers the following yearas well, ignoring these "special provisions"
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#109 deanthetory
"More stable? Why?"
Stable in the sense that over the past 2 years they have tended to change less from sampling to sampling than the Westmidden intentions. Why is obviously conjectural, but as they have been less volatile than the Westmidden numbers it seems not unreasonable to suspect that it's closer to "underlying" allegiance.
I've never met anyone who wants an L-D council, a Lab Holyrood and a Con Westmidden. I suppose such individuals may exist but it seems more plausible that people will vote for what they believe in most for councils [where almost every vote counts thanks to STV] but more tactically for the parliamentary elections.
Unfortunately, the pollsters don't do regular council polls but with every seat counting in Holyrood while the Scottish seats make up less than 10% of Westmidden, the Holyrood polls are more likely to be based on personal preference than a personal guesstimate of what the overall result will be.
"I hold that YouGov is by far the most reliable pollster for demonstrating quick changes of public opinion."
They were in 2005 and 2007, but whether they will be for future elections will depend on how accurate their weighting algorithms prove to be.
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86. deanthetory
"I wanted every Scottish political party to be apart of it- the SNP refused to contribute."
Yet more evidence of your mindless prejudice. The SNP did not refuse to contribute. The SNP was effectively excluded by the terms of reference devised by the Tory/BLP alliance. It was never their intention that the SNP should participate. It was never their intention that the Calman Commission should be anything other than a rather desperate and pathetic effort to undermine the official consultation process.
This is the political cabal to which you give such unquestioning devotion. A gang of self-serving hacks who put personal and partisan interests before the nation and people they are sworn to serve - and before democracy itself.
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231 respondents!
A free higher education is a free higher education, living expenses - on top of that - should be far from universal to my mind.
(I say that as someone owing the best part of 9,000 from my time as an undergraduate).
The Scottish Government has remedied the situation so that every undergraduate from Scotland (good enough to enter university) gets a free first degree. Look around the world, or even just south of the border: this is a triumph of an enlightened society! Partisan politics no longer comes in to this (despite initial opposition of Blue and Red Tories), the fact that education is available to all, on equal terms, and based on ability is something Scotland should be proud of.
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88. U14094468
"Anyone else hear about the US senate apparently condemning the release of Megrahi?"
Who cares? What are they going to do? Start calling haggis "freedom pudding"?
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110. gogopowerranger
Correct me if I'm wrong though - there is no longer any debt to be incurred in order to pay for either tuition (the education) or graduation (successful completion of that education)? Tuition fees, and graduate endowment are gone, yes?
So you think that any other debts incurred while a person is a student should be written off (paid by the government)? Or you claim that the government has committed to doing so?
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119. oldnat
We should get rid of political parties.
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119. oldnat
"we get managerial issues like class size - as if that should ever have been an issue for central government"
Assuming i'm correct in taking at face value statements on these comment threads that you have a background in education, a genuine question - where should that issue be handled?
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#123 Colinyorkston
That's an excellent first post however you may find that majority on this blog don't want to face any truths about their failing party .(SNP)
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#128mrbfaethedee
No! the 2Bn debt remains outstanding and just what part of an accrued debt don't you understand..........Jeez!.
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124. At 11:26pm on 24 Sep 2009, Brownedov
Whats' their record in regestering sudden opinion changes? Failure to do this is one of the reasons I dont always buy TNS system three polls.
121. At 11:24pm on 24 Sep 2009, sneckedagain
"but I get the feeling that deam the tory would be none the worse living for a few months in Easterhouse on the pathetic level of benefit our unemployed young people recieve."
They will recieve more than my mother had when brining me and my brother up! She got by (somehow) on just £10,000 a year.
The posting you make is classic. And one of the reasons why I always use 'tory' in usernames- people always react as you have. You asume I am somehow unable to relate to poverty- newsflash I dont need to empathise, I've been there. You suggest that I need to learn about hardship in society- again, you clearly fail to realise that most young conservative people are like me- hardly well off at all.
This is why I shall always be a tory, it wasnt Labour who ever helped my mother, under labour she suffered the triumph of mediocrity. No asperation, no right for equality of oportunity...just dont be so quick to display your blatant leftwing bias, devoid of fact, devoid of reality, mud slinging and asumption.
As John Major said in 1992 GE "why do Labour say that because I was poor as a child I must be a socialist?" Why? Major is right, we need more choice, more rights of equality of opportunity- not the 'one size fits all' passions of leftwing politics.
I refuse to be told by you in such an arrogant manner which betrays your real intent "deam the tory would be none the worse living for a few months in Easterhouse" How dare you!
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#128mrbfaethedee
Further more dee, are you seriously advocating that only those who can afford a further education should do so.
And do you seriously think there are no cost involved in attending university on a daily bases?.
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Question Time and the Daily Politics on the Megrahi issue won't let facts get in the way of spinning the events to their own ends. Not one person got the facts of the issue correct, even after all this time, or managed not to conflate Westminster with Holyrood areas of responsibility and all that implies, it beggars belief.
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#118 U14094468
"If yours is the definitive wording then the reports are accurate, if not then the reports are inaccurate."
The THOMAS link in my #111 seems pretty definitive to me, and is linked to from the main http://www.senate.gov/ site [see the Daily Digest(latest issue) link on the right menu].
Following that link should currently take you to the front page of the Daily Digest for the 23rd, where the first of the Measures Passed is what you quote, which seems to have been an agreed amendment to the original motion. Drilling down on the Pages S9705-06 link. From there, the link next to 2 . DEMANDING AN APOLOGY FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF LIBYA should take you to the actual proceedings, Hansard style, including the text I quoted.
Looking at the sole speech, from Senator Charles Schumer (Dem, New York), I see that the myth of al-Megrahi serving only 8 years is alive and well. He actually served more than 10 years including time in jail pre-trial.
Sorry to disappoint, but hope this helps clarify the issue.
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And deeper and deeper the SNP want to go!why dont they just hand full control of the games over to Glasgow council.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8274000.stm
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# 106 mrbfaethedee & # 116 Brownedov
Thanks. That many BBC blog regulars also have their own blogs doesn't come as a surprise, in particular Dean as he is a student of politics. Personally, reading and sometimes contributing to the BBC blog is about as much time as I'd like to spend researching the political issues of the day, I'd fancy it would/could take a lot of time to actively keep your own blog informative and accurate.
# 112 deanthetory
'Ah, the triumph of mediocrity- not your intention I accept, but I believe it would be/is being the natural outcome. A bit like how Cameron endlessly parrots on about "making every school a grammar school" (tosh).'
Quite correct, not my intention at all. I still maintain that trying to raise standards across the board is a more just use of resources and removes the need for parents to worry about getting into a particular school. The system you propose would see the anarchy which is the school selection system in England and Wales. I'm not naive enough to think that all schools in Scotland would be of the same standard in every area, but to work towards that aim is still the best policy. It's a numbers game, the best schools in the country cannot possibly service all applicants in your system of choice. Therefore all you do is change the nature of the problem instead of finding a solution.
The attitude that private school educated pupils automatically receive a better education than state educated pupils is also a falacy. Granted better facilities may be available at some private schools, the nature of the beast, however it's the students themeselves that given the chance gain the grades they are capable of. I accept that in certain state schools opportunities are limited and therefore not all pupils potentials are fully realised. This is why I believe it necessary to improve schools across the board to make sure every child is given a fair chance to do so, not a free for all selection system of 'choice' that may benefit far fewer than it disadvantages.
In this case 'choice' is but an illusion
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132. giggletheloneranger
Ah, you mean the existing Student Loans debt held by students who had to take them out to pay their fees prior to the SNP abolishing them?
Sorry.
Well £2bn quid isn't going to be written off just now is it? So the SNP fail to find a paltry couple of billion to meet an aspirational manifesto commitment. OK they failed to meet it.
Did that make you happy to read those words?
Do you want that £2bn written off?
What about the rest of my response though, tuition is free and you don't have to pay to graduate - do you concede that the SNP have brought free higher education abck to Scotland?
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134. giggletheloneranger
"Further more dee, are you seriously advocating that only those who can afford a further education should do so."
Ok, so you're making up my adovcacy, care to at least explain how?
Higher education - free! Fee for graduating - none!
The further education itself is clearly affordable.
So...
"And do you seriously think there are no cost involved in attending university on a daily bases?. "
Is this what you are driving at? Why not just say so!
You want a living allowance to be paid to students?
Have the SNP made a commitment to paying students a living allowance, and reneged on it?
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PS to my #136
Obviously the US Senate cared more about calling for an apology from Libya than about the release per se, but their ire may in part have been directed at the UK thanks to the This Week in Senate History snippet on their home page:
September 19, 1814
The Senate convened in the Patent Office building,
also known as Blodgett’s Hotel, for the first time
following the burning of the Capitol by British
troops during the War of 1812.
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#133 deanthetory
"Whats' their record in regestering sudden opinion changes? Failure to do this is one of the reasons I dont always buy TNS system three polls."
I haven't tried to analyse that, and am certainly not going to start trying past 01:00 CET. One of the problems with Scottish polls is that there are simply fewer of them than UK ones and that's not likely to change even post independence. I do suspect YouGov register change better simply because they conduct more polls.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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@123
Welcome to BWB
So what exactly is your point? Within a concordat process ending ringfencing of local council funding The Scottish Government request that where possible the councils retain teacher numbers in the face of falling rolls. How to achieve this locally is entrusted to democratically elected councils. The published stats show that teacher to
Pupil ratios in Scotland are increased - so again (as with class sizes) thevmomentum is in the right direction. Again this is being done by agreement not blunt force and as a result have far more potential to be embedded and systeinable (even in the teeth of difficult budgets) than previous "here's another initiative you MUST implement" edicts.
It's a new approach a "new politics" if you like and one that offers far more hope for long term change than the macho posturing that has gone before.
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135. ScotInNotts
"Not one person got the facts of the issue correct..."
That pretty much reflects what I have found. Every discussion of the issue I have been involved in or witnessed has been characterised by profound ignorance and serious misconceptions. But what can we expect? The media long since abandoned any notion of an obligation to inform.
I was moved to contact the editor of one publication which had stated as fact that al-Megrahi dropping his second appeal was one of the conditions of his release. The response from this "journalist" was blithely dismissive of my complaint and unceremoniously rejected the suggestion that his publication had a duty to correct the error.
Truth and accuracy, it seems, have come to be regarded as a dispensable inconvenience rather than the very essence of good reporting.
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# 133 deanthetory
"No asperation, no right for equality of oportunity...just dont be so quick to display your blatant leftwing bias, devoid of fact, devoid of reality, mud slinging and asumption."
I know your response was aimed at another poster, however I had to comment. I assume that you feel that the Tories are the only party which fosters such admirable qualities? Am I mistaken in thinking that socialism by definition was about equality of opportunity for all?
Also, by it's very nature and policies implemented in the past, the Tories were more focussed on the free market and all that entails. They portrayed this as a mass participation effort, where if you worked hard enough you too could become an entrepreneur or a millionare. Admirable to be sure, but hardly the truth. Much like the American dream where everyone can be a millionare one day, tell that to those on Medicare. As always the reality is not quite as rosy as the possibilty. Although there are those that will suggest that those that don't 'mak it' just haven't tried hard enough, I don't buy that.
My point, you don't have to vote or be a member of the Tory party (or any political party for that matter) to have aspiration and ambition to 'better' yourself. It looks like you resent most of all the thought of automatically being labelled a socialist depending on your background, perhaps to the extent that you saw the Tory party as the only alternative?
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Dean the Tory and others at too many posts to mention - it has been bugging me for a while that the BBC and the rest of the Labour media keep banging on about 'broken manifesto promises'.
So, for Dean and those others...
Manifestos are written on the basis that a majority is secured in the forthcoming election. A MAJORITY.
The SNP Government is a minority government. A MINORITY.
With me so far?
It is absurd to expect an SNP minority govt. to deliver on its manifesto commitments. Because, er, they don't have a majority and thus can be thwarted by the Unionist bloc at will. When you think about it, it's amazing they've made the progress they have.
Do I really have to go on?!
CC
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DeanTheTory:
#133.
"You asume I am somehow unable to relate to poverty- newsflash I dont need to empathise, I've been there. You suggest that I need to learn about hardship in society- again, you clearly fail to realise that most young conservative people are like me- hardly well off at all."
It's no suprise that young supporters of the Conservative Party are not well off, afterall the youngest in society are the poorest since they have not had time to build up wealth. However if we continue to follow the path of a Conservative supporter, you can bet their way of thinking and outlook upon the world will usually lead them into the middle and upper class of society.
"This is why I shall always be a tory, it wasnt Labour who ever helped my mother, under labour she suffered the triumph of mediocrity. No asperation, no right for equality of oportunity...just dont be so quick to display your blatant leftwing bias, devoid of fact, devoid of reality, mud slinging and asumption."
I find this part of your comment amusing and disappointing. You should always remain open minded when it comes to politics, becoming a typical hardliner defending every decision taken by a group is not the best way forward. I have admitted before that I was a supporter of New Labour/Conservatives on different occasions as I felt that they were right for the time being. I now find myself in the nationalist camp and expect to remain here, since of course it's more my tune.
I also struggle to understand what the Government can do to help single mothers considering parenting is a full-time thing, plus I do struggle to understand that your mother could afford childcare and therefore work or attend college to better herself (glass ceiling effect). Never mind party politics, you've experienced so what are your reccomendations?
Back to party politics, what do the Conservatives offer people in the same position as your mother?
"As John Major said in 1992 GE "why do Labour say that because I was poor as a child I must be a socialist?" Why? Major is right, we need more choice, more rights of equality of opportunity- not the 'one size fits all' passions of leftwing politics."
From a right wing perspective, ineqaulity will and rightfully should remain in British society. This is part of the system that you can never, ever change. It's easier said than done anyways.
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138. ScotInNotts
"Personally, reading and sometimes contributing to the BBC blog is about as much time as I'd like to spend researching the political issues of the day, I'd fancy it would/could take a lot of time to actively keep your own blog informative and accurate."
I agree - it must be pretty time consuming. I don't know how half the posters here manage to have so much info to present (or misrepresent depending on your view ;) in the comments, let alone keep a blog too.
I assume some posters are activists but I can't image they number too many.
Anyway, mod queues are building up and it's getting late...
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#110 giggletheloneranger
"Push Scotland's debt, 2009 release, 231 respondents, £2,194 average debt per year, £9,844 projected debt on graduation. Survey done Aug 2009.
Hardly an end to student debt and don't forget the outstanding 2Bn, accumulative debt still hasn't been cleared."
I missed this post, hence the delay in replying. As others have since pointed out, both tuition fees and the graduate endowment have been abolished (I was one of the unfotunate that started my degree at its inception and had to pay the thing!). We were misled by the Lab/Lib coalition on the graduate endowment when thay tried to implement it and I for one won't forgive them for that. However, in comparative terms to other nations, paying £2000 (it increased slightly each year after inception) for a first degree is still reasonable, if the benefit from having said degree is tangible, as was the supposed intention of those that implemented the graduate endowment. The benefit will not have been tangible for all however.
Even in the good old days of grants students still ran up debt, so to portray the "£2,194 average debt per year, £9,844 projected debt on graduation" as anything other than living costs, equipment and literature expenses, and of course 'socialising', the figures you state seem about right for a four year honours degree.
I worked throughout my degree like many others to minimise this debt, which has obviously become harder during the current economic climate.
However, to suggest that the SNP manifesto pledge to abolish student debt meant anything other than the abolition of the graduate endowmentk, which they have done, is disingenuous.
I hardly think they meant funding wee Joes bevvy at the union on a Wednesday night or paying for his rent.
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138. At 00:18am on 25 Sep 2009, ScotInNotts
"The system you propose would see the anarchy which is the school selection system in England and Wales"
I would contest that English higher education is hardly an anarchy.
The common misconception is that English A-level pass rates are up on 64% due to "dumbed down".
I would contest this is a gross generalisation, and hardly a general truth at all. For example, according to latest research conducted by Durham University researchers the answer lies in "the subject Stupid" (so their report said).
In it the study found that many subjects were actually getting harder at A-level, such as mathematics, music, and sciences. The Economist ran with this story- because it highlights the tendancy to generalise that any English educational advances are due to "dumbing down"- it isn't the case. (http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14270137)
So if we take this onboard then we cannot say English education is an "anarchy", they have done something right. They have overtaken Scottish secondary pass rates, the Scottish Higher pass remained on 54%, but in England the pass rate has surged ahead on 64%- and it is clear that many, many, subjects have actually got harder, not easier.
Perhaps the abandonment of the Liberal consensus of education has actually been at the heart of stagnating Scottish education. (I say stagnating because the system hasnot got worse or better, but stagnated for the last 6 odd years).
Surely the current English secondary system has become in many respects a model to follow, not condemn. Choice, parental empowerment- and city academies. It is worth considering introducing in Scotland...and to my mind the SNP and Labour both stand against this path to progress.
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@130
MrB mind if I chip in on your question? My take would have setting aspirations/desires/targets for national education priorities (which would include an expression of govt view on appropriate class sizes) being the role of national government. The "managerial" aspects of the transition to meet these expressed views are clearly best placed closest to the communities affected. Subsidiarity I believe it is called in "Eurospeak".
The concordat approach is a breath of fresh air, meets an often expressed SNP commitment of allowing increased responsibility at a local level and provides a real opportunity to deliver effectuveness and meaningful efficiencies at council level (if your budget isn't already heavily ringfenced to meet centralist initiatives then you can adapt within local needs)
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#130 mrbfaethedee
Local decisions are best taken by local government. For example, the priority in deprived primary schools in cities should indeed be smaller infant classes. Economies could be made at the other end of the spectrum by combining tiny Advanced Higher classes in neighbouring schools.
There are a myriad of ways in which education can be delivered, and to impose a standard system centrally probably only ensures that nobody gets the ideal system.
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#144 Electric Hermit
"Truth and accuracy, it seems, have come to be regarded as a dispensable inconvenience rather than the very essence of good reporting"
I agree, unforunately for both programmes the misconceptions and erroneous facts were being perpetrated not just by those from the media (Fraser Nelson, editor of The Spectator and News of the World columnist) but from both former and serving politicians, especially Digby, Hesseltine and Miguel Portillo. What struck me was the blatant misrepresentation of the issue on both programmes to score political points against Labour in Westminster, whilst simultaneously berating Scottish justice and it's Executive. The latter was spoken of and seen by some to be no more than a glorified provincial town council, with it's members spoken of as such and seen as either incompotent, naive, or both.
Apparently Westminster is the only place that matters within the UK, talk about glass houses!
To think that the professional political classes at Westminster are automatically superior to those at Holyrood highlights just the type of beast we're dealing with at the heart of the UK. I almost forgot that we were too wee, too small and too pretendy to make an informed decision on an issue of such magnitude.
Oh well, does that mean Scotlands been sent to it's room with no tea again by those in power at Westminster? The 'establishemnt' will never learn, I say it's time to leave them to it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#150 deanthetory
"I would contest that English higher education is hardly an anarchy."
Tell that to those faking admission applications with false addresses or even trying to bribe school officials in order to get their child into the 'right' school. I used the word anarchy to describe the scramble that is the school selection system in England and Wales. I was in no way reflecting on the standard of education that the rest of your post refers to.
With regards your arguement that because higher pass rates have not increased in the past 6 years, but in the same time A-level passes have, we should look to follow the practices in England's education system.
While the increase in England is admirable I am always wary of such statistics. We always here how exams are easier nowadays etc. I don't necessarily agree with that, simply because the nature of the courses taught and the exams have changed over the course of he years.
It is interesting that this 'stagnation' as you put it in Scoltand has only come about since the tinkering with the system that was 'Higher Still' by the Lab/Lib coalition. Not only did I have the distinction of going to uni during the first year of students liable to pay the graduate endowment, but I also did my Highers during the first year of Higher Still, a guinea pig all round it would seem :) Higher still wasn't implemented well and in a hurry, and I beleive they still haven't made the system right. This is evident with the amount of changes made in the restructuring of course levels and awards, schools not putting students forward in case they fails particular levels. This in my view is plain wrong, and goes to the heart of what you were saying earlier regarding apsiration and ambition. Imagine being told at that age that you can't do something, don't even try as you might, even probably fail, best not to try at all it seems. Hardly a positive attitude towards life being instilled there.
Personally I don't put much faith in the percentage of passes at whatever grade. I realise you have to have some yard stick by which to measure the success/failings of your education system, however the exams change yearly, obviously as do the pupils, which means you're not strictly comparing like with like.
I'd be more interested in what was being taught, i.e. is the course giving the correct skills needed in the modern work place, rather than if 64% got an A in maths but whats been taught is about as much use as the paper its written on. However that method doesn't give any nice, compact statistics to parade at a party conference or in an election.
Just looke at the complaints from business and universities with regards entrants abilities when entering the work place or university, in particular the basics of Maths and English. I'm sorry to say that I have encountered those involved in administering education that are of the opinion spelling and grammar are not that important, the computer will sort that out for you with the spell check. Again, beggars belief!
Having said that I have also had a lecturer tell me that a particular computer programme would calculate something for me, I didn't have to know how it got the answer it arrived at.
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#152 oldnat
"Economies could be made at the other end of the spectrum by combining tiny Advanced Higher classes in neighbouring schools."
I'm happy to say that that was indeed the case for some advanced higher classes when I attended school. We had some of our students shipped off to Gryffe to learn AH French.
Another one to ponder, what is the strict definition of 'class'. My primary school had two 'classes' of the same primary level in the one room, and I'm guessing this is not unusual in many schools. I was one of 74 pupils in my primary 1 class, split between two teachers in the one room, and from then on always had around 30 pupils to one teacher ratio, again I'm guessing that this was not unusual.
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The first SNP executive budget saw the fall of a key pledge.
http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/2691-snp-breaks-promise-on-student-debt
It's about the manifesto and the pledges, you know those promises if they were elected.
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#39. Gedguy2, I know only what I've read from that account and a few news articles so I'm in no position to debate who was right or wrong in the Mau Mau uprising against British rule. The only reason I brought it up was because I have read President Obama's book where he discusses his grandfather (who was apparently tortured while imprisoned). Some people believe that was the reason for returning (rudely?) a bust of Churchill and a distinct coolness in dealing with the British PM and certain comments that have been made by his administration.
The BBC doesn't want to admit it, but this coolness existed LONG before the al-Megrahi release. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/9073697/Barack_Obama_cancels_press_conference_with_Gordon_Brown_because_of_snow/
The reason? Perhaps the speculation that it relates to his father's family is entirely erroneous. But it didn't start with the release of al-Megrahi--I don't care WHAT spin the BBC puts on it.
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#146. At 00:40am on 25 Sep 2009, CassiusClaymore wrote:
Dean the Tory and others at too many posts to mention - it has been bugging me for a while that the BBC and the rest of the Labour media keep banging on about 'broken manifesto promises'.
So, for Dean and those others...
Manifestos are written on the basis that a majority is secured in the forthcoming election. A MAJORITY.
The SNP Government is a minority government. A MINORITY.
With me so far?
It is absurd to expect an SNP minority govt. to deliver on its manifesto commitments. Because, er, they don't have a majority and thus can be thwarted by the Unionist bloc at will. When you think about it, it's amazing they've made the progress they have.
Do I really have to go on?!
CC
I know that this is too LOGICAL for some to follow. In fact a majority party doesn't always manage to work its will but a minority party RARELY will.
Thank you for a plain and straight-forward post. :)
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#153
Truth and accuracy, good combination and very relevant to the now position.The SNP have clearly been found wanting on their manifesto pledge and the incompetence goes right back to the first budget.
If want to enthuse the people and lead them to Independence then surely your pledges of truth must be accurate and if you fail to deliver on those pledges, then by rule of nature you are also forfeiting the right of confidence and people will be less likely to vote for Independence, through the lack of truth and accuracy.
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#154
Published by The Herald and The Scotsman. Don't know whether it was off topic or off message. :)
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# 157 giggleloneranger
reading the article the only part of the SNP manifesto pledge that has not been met is the eradication of the £1.9 billion pound debt accrued by students. Does it seem a sensible use of funds at the moment to eradicate this debt, or fund key public services? Abolishing the graduate endowment is a good start, ask anyone going to university now if they'd prefer to pay or not pay around £2000 on graduation.
Hard choices for hard times giggle.
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#156 ScotInNotts
I remember the system well, as I was heavily involved with timetabling these "new" arrangements in the old Renfrew Division of Strathclyde, back in the 1980s. Students tended to appreciate seeing a wider range of "talent" of the opposite sex! However, it didn't really work in the more rural areas of Strathclyde where they tried to force the policy as well - hence my stress on finding the best solutions for each area.
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#160 giggleloneranger
I admire your persistence, I hope you are at least convincing some people reading this blog to buy what you're selling. It seems the blinkers can't be removed from you no matter what anyone says on the matter, which pretty much means there's no room for debate with you.
As ever, the electorate will voice who they feel has benefitted them or can benefit them the most come the next election.
In comparison to the other alternative political parties, (that have had how long to implement change?) then you're right to be disappointed with the SNP. With their superhuman powers they should have had it all done by now shouldn't they, whatever is keeping them? No explanation, no consideration of current circumstances, don't want to hear it. If it ain't cut and dried exactly like it is in the manifesto then it's of no value, right? Wrong.
Sounds like you want an automaton government that can't react to prevailing circumstances and is unable to make hard choices giggle. You must be a Labour supporter then, no?
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159. At 02:14am on 25 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
"The SNP Government is a minority government. A MINORITY."
The SNP are in government, the SNP made manifesto pledges to deliver 18 pupils per classroom or less. This was a flagship comittment for government at Holyrood, it was never enjoyed any caveats of "...if we have an absolute majority", nor was there "this will remain our asperation". The SNP sold it as entirely deliverable, minority or not.
The SNP now have to face the fact that they made such undeliverable promises, just to get into power. They cynically made promises which they knew would never happen due to the very nature of minority government, they made their promises, they felt they had the opt-out "nae oor fault gov! its awh their fault, we're jist a poor minority government". Cynical and deeply damaging to the health of devolution.
This is a weak excuse. You can do better (or perhaps this is as good as it is going to be?)
"Manifestos are written on the basis that a majority is secured in the forthcoming election. A MAJORITY."
So where in the SNP manifesto of 2007 does it say "if commanding an absolute majority", or even any note of such a caveat at all? There wasnt any, there never was anything of the sort. Your seriously saying that its just assumed that everyone knew (somehow) that when the SNP pledged to cut classroom sizes to 18, that this was invisibly caveated with "if with a majority"....it didnt need saying 'cos the world already really knew that this 'promise' was just an 'asperation'.
This is sinister NewSpeak, classic examples of spin, and political cynicism.
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162. At 02:29am on 25 Sep 2009, ScotInNotts
"# 157 giggleloneranger
reading the article the only part of the SNP manifesto pledge that has not been met is the eradication of the £1.9 billion pound debt accrued by students. Does it seem a sensible use of funds at the moment to eradicate this debt, or fund key public services?"
But the SNP arent doing either.
They aren't funding their student debt pledge, and abandoned it long before the recession took place.
And the SNP have decided to CUT CUT CUT social housing, rather than abandon their 'national' conversation (you know the one, the one for Nationalists only- yeh that 'national' one).
So how on earth can you have the audacity to sit there claiming that the SNP broke their student debt pledge, in order to prioritise public services.
The SNP have been cutting vital public services such as social housing like mad, all in the attempt to avoid abandoning Salmonds' vanity projects.
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#157 giggle
You really should read articles before you link to them.
"John Swinney said: "I know there is insufficient parliamentary support for student debt servicing for loans to grants and we must therefore prioritise funding on policies that we can deliver and which will be supported by Parliament."
Obviously you would have preferred the Scottish Government to put forward a budget which committed a minority government to certain defeat, and financial chaos for Scotland, but you know what? I'm not the only person (actually we're the vast majority in Scotland) who aren't members of any party, and who put Scotland before the petty interests of any group of politicians.
One of the many reasons why the SNP is polling better, and your lot much worse since 2007.
Try getting some principles, rather than just wanting "your lot" of power-seeking politicians to be in Government.
If you do still have the principles you espouse, then you are in the wrong party - Labour abandoned everything you believed in long ago.
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#162ScotInNottingham
I thought your post 149 was an almost fairly accurate assessment however your 162 post seems to slide right into the favouritism league of, hey! I nat and I wont question their pledges of truth and accuracy.Maybe it's a human thing, when you think there's a challenge against something you like or support, you automatically switch to defence mode.
Sad that but maybe more so for you, why? because reading between the lines........you do come across a decent person, who may have even campaigned against student debt and probably involved yourself with the student union.
I still remain puzzled at what part of a graduation debt you dont understand.
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That was a pretty amusing G20 link that Brian Taylor posted. A fine example of how politicians in power can always keep their promises.
Lets see from the BBC article how they say the G-20 world leaders are doing on keeping "campaign promises":
Promise: $1.1 trillion Support Package -- Only Partially Kept
Promise: $5tn in stimulus measures -- Only Partially Kept
Promise: Reform IMF Voting -- NOT Kept
Promise: Regulate Hedge Funds -- NOT Kept
Promise: Curb Tax Havens -- Met
Promise: Crack Down on Bonuses -- Partially Met (NOT in the US though)
Promise: Establish the Financial Stability Board -- Met
AMAZING. The most powerful nations in the world were not able to fully keep their promises.
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#165 deanthetory
"Your seriously saying that its just assumed that everyone knew (somehow) that when the SNP pledged to cut classroom sizes to 18, that this was invisibly caveated with "if with a majority"....it didnt need saying 'cos the world already really knew that this 'promise' was just an 'asperation'."
You may have noted my contribution above, that every manifesto of every party would be better if it contained some such wording at the beginning. But only the naive would imagine that any manifesto statement from any of the parties was a commitment to deliver that without a Parliamentary majority. Those of us who have been around for a few elections know that the realities of life seldom allow any party (your own included) to deliver manifesto items at UK level - even with an absolute majority under plurality voting.
Of course, committed members of the non-governing parties will try to make political capital out of it - that's politics, but please spare us the tone of moral outrage.
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#166 deanthetory
A little tip. It doesn't work to repeat your Leaderene's slogans. Simply makes you sound like a clone.
National Conversation - "for Nationalists only" - oh please! Anyone is free to comment whatever their constitutional stance - and more than the SNP support the independence strategy.
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#167Oldnat
That was a poor response from you.
" John Swinney said: "I know there is insufficient parliamentary support for student debt servicing for loans to grants and we must therefore prioritise funding on policies that we can deliver and which will be supported by Parliament."
Like the GARL or what about social housing or the student business and housing investment through scrapping endowment fees or scrapping 18 pupils per classroom or under funding the police force or failing to get a grip on alcohol and it's misuse or failing to build schools or failing to support employment in construction and renewable energy or failing to secure a bid to build a new forth crossing or failing to get new teachers into schools.........................................................................
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169. At 02:55am on 25 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
The failure of others to keep to their pledges, promises and flagship policies is hardly a justification for the SNPs' broken promises.
Student Debt- not met
classrooms with 18 pupils or under P1,2,3 - not met
1,000 more police officers- forced on them
Scottish futures Trust - not built anything (whatever happened to "matching brick for brick"?)
Introduction of LIT - not met
(and before anyone starts off on 'minority government' etc, there was no such caveat in the 2007 manifesto of "to be delivered only if there is a 51% SNP absolute majority in the chamber": here is what the manifesto itself reads - "Scrapping the unfair council tax and replacing it with a system based on ability to pay.The local income tax rate will be set at 3p")
Outdoors PE - not met
(to quote the 2007 manifesto again: "More opportunities for youngsters to be fit and active with 2 hours PE per week for everypupil, a moratorium on the sale of playing fields and free access to council swimming pools", totally undelivered, dropped. Abandoned.)
Relacement of student loans system - not met
(2007 manifesto pledged to: "Replacing the expensive and discredited Student Loans system"- this was abandoned in the first year of the SNP executive)
'Building a better future' for Scottish fishing industries - not met
(2007: "Building a better future for the fishing industry"- only the Salmond Stugeon crew can phathom what this was even promised for, they have no powers over fisheries anyway, but still a pledge broken)
'Tourism will be a key priority' - not met
(the SNP have managed to alienate the USA tourism industry to Scotland, so I'd say the 2007 pledge here failed: "The promotion of Scotland’s tourism industry will be a key priority for the SNP in government", promoted it so well that there is now a "boycott Scotland" website in opperation.)
I can go on, all failed, unimplimented SNP promises, all made without any reference to the constraints of minority governance, no caveats. These were the SNP 2007 stall, they made all these promises- all abandoned.
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How to cut class sizes.
"Conservatives have wiped up to 700,000 further education students from the official records of recruitment to colleges on the day they took power in 1979.
Statistics in their manifesto have angered college association and union leaders who have accused the party of "fibbing" and "a sleight of hand".
The Tory manifesto claims: "Three-and-a-half million people are in further education, up from just half a million in 1979." A Central Office spokesman insisted: "It is a DFEE figure which we use in all our briefings."
But figures from the then Department of Education and Science put college recruitment that year at between 940,000 and 1.2 million.
College principals said this threw doubt on the wider claims for education made by the Conservatives. Colin Flint, principal of Solihull College, accused them of "manipulating" the 1979 figure."
http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=46321
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170. At 03:08am on 25 Sep 2009, oldnat
"But only the naive would imagine that any manifesto statement from any of the parties was a commitment to deliver that without a Parliamentary majority"
Nonsense oldnat. Your saying that under Proportional Represenation Scottish elections, where gaining a parliamentary majority is hardly the most likely or expected outcome that somehow the public just knew that all these broken promises were really only ment to have been kept to- if there was a majority. Thats one heck of an important line of smallprint the SNP failed to include on their manifesto.
The truth that you (being a nationalist) cannot accept is that the SNP made undeliverable pledges in 2007- undeliverable due to the very nature of PR politics, but made them anyway, cynically knowing that they'd have to break them. The SNP deliberatel mislead the public, not at any one point does the 2007 manifesto say "if we have a majority we shall.."
I'm not the clone, but your increasingly a clone of the nationalist movement, and YOU are better than this.
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#166 deanthetory
"So how on earth can you have the audacity to sit there claiming that the SNP broke their student debt pledge, in order to prioritise public services.
The SNP have been cutting vital public services such as social housing like mad, all in the attempt to avoid abandoning Salmonds' vanity projects."
As they didn't have the support to push through such a use of funds, therefore they had no choice but to pursue other policies. Who was it that instigated the right to buy without any forethought on how to replace the existing stock? Asking private housing contractors, in it as a business to make a profit, to build affordable housing is also not working. Whats the solution there Dean?
The SNP abolished the graduate endowment, which is more than any other party has done or would have done for students. I'll take that as a move in the right direction.
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DeanTheTory:
#165.
"The SNP are in government, the SNP made manifesto pledges to deliver 18 pupils per classroom or less. This was a flagship comittment for government at Holyrood, it was never enjoyed any caveats of "...if we have an absolute majority", nor was there "this will remain our asperation". The SNP sold it as entirely deliverable, minority or not."
It seems most individuals understand the limitations of a minority administration, so why are you struggling to understand? Your acting as if councils have not made progress on the matter and the truth is that over 50 percent have made progress, so considering we're in a recession I say it's quite good progress.
It was certainly never going to be an overnight policy, such as the police numbers which certain opposition groups used after one month of an SNP administration, without the consideration that it will take longer to train 1000 officers...
You have to keep a balanced opinion on the matter, Dean. At the end of the SNP administration we can come back and see which councils have done well on class sizes, who has not done well and look into why councils have not done well. Then we can ask ourselves, was it value for money?
I will be amazed to hear Aberdeen City Council managing to reduce class sizes. However will you also blame the SNP Government over debts created by the local Liberal Democrat and Conservative council?
I am quite interested with the idea that you are batting away the ole, "We're a minority government, wha do you expect?" reason. Are you suggesting we should change to FPTP system, or simply give the Scottish Government unlimited power to pass through her agenda?
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#168 giggleloneranger
I do support independence and I like the change that has been brought about by the SNP whilst in government, compared to the previous Lab/Lib administrations and what the Tories are offering, but I am not a member of a political party or was ever active in the student union.
I'd consider myself a pragmatist, and whilst the SNP manifesto pledge to abolish all student debt was indeed a silly thing to promise (and in the light of subsequent economic developments all but impossible) I personally feel that with the abolition of the graduate endowment that they did more than any other party has or would have done for students during the current parliament. As I said before, students were misled with regards to the graduate endowment by the Lab/Lib administration when the Libs wanted to abolish all tuition fees but Labour blocked it.
I also should have added before that I also minimised my debt by staying at home during my first degree. Obviously not an option for all nor a preference for most, however needs must at times.
It would seem from your posts that you oppose the SNP whatever the issue, whereas even Dean and others that oppose the SNP give praise where praise is due, although usually with some caveat which is only reasonable. I'd be more receptive to your arguements if it didn't appear you were plugging the Labour party line, as opposed to voicing real concerns with policy.
"I still remain puzzled at what part of a graduation debt you dont understand."
I still don't understand what you think students should have paid for them by the government so that they graduate without any debt whatsoever. Costs will always be incurred, with students from poorer backgrounds given extra help to attend university through bursarys, loans etc. However, this does not mean that no debt will ever or should ever be incurred. Unfortunately the utpoia of debt free higher education for all regardless of economic circumstance is unobtainable in any society, and I for one am glad of the arrangement we currently have when compared to other Western countries higher education systems. Are you actually arguing that all students costs during their first degree should be paid for by the state?
I agree it's not a perfect system and it needs work, but so does everything else. I'm prepared to give the SNP more time if the lot of students steadily improves in increments as has been seen, so far.
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#172 giggle
You realLy don't understand do you? You are so tied into tribal loyalty to a party that doesn't share your beliefs that you imagine that the rest of us are all the same!
Most of your post was totally irrelevant to what I said, but as party hacks like you do that routinely - it does bring down the quality of debate - I'll let that pass.
However, although I'm no apologist for the SNP, let's look at what you said -
"Like the GARL" - Budget is down in real terms, costs of this had increased. What would you have cut instead?
"social housing" - The spend on this was accelerated into last year's budget. What would you have cut instead to increase this?
"the student business" - Your party was against this policy. When did you change your minds?
"housing investment through scrapping endowment fees" - You've got me on that one. What are you talking about? The first time buyer idea?
"scrapping 18 pupils per classroom" - you've still got the detail of that wrong, and what would you have cut to get every Primary class below 2o/21?
"under funding the police force" - You want to spend more? What would you cut to achieve that?
"failing to get a grip on alcohol and it's misuse" - As I remember, your party has opposed every single measure to try to deal with this. And weren't your lot the largest party in Scotland for the last 50 years while the problem was developing?
"failing to build schools" - So you want to dump heavy expenditure on future public budgets to feed capitalist profits?
"failing to support employment in construction and renewable energy" - Actually not true, but if you want to increase spending in these areas, what would you cut to achieve that?
"failing to secure a bid to build a new forth crossing" - Hey the SNP is at fault because UK Labour said no?
"failing to get new teachers into schools" - So you want Central Government to hire teachers? - What would you cut to achieve that?
As an Old Labour man, your answer would doubtless be "increase taxes to fund expansion of the public sector" What a shame that your masters in New Labour (UK PLC) think that idea is stark staring bonkers? And also that the financial system under which the Scottish Government operates is a block grant operated by New Labour (UK PLC).
Come up with an alternative Budget, then you might be listened to - but I look forward to seeing your list of cuts.
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#173 deanthetory
See my response to giggle. Exactly the same questions apply to you. what would you have cut in order that the SNP implement policies you don't agree with anyway?
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ScotInNotts:
You should look into Saudi Arabias higher education policy...
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#175 deanthetory
Oddly, I didn't notice any such statement n the manifestos of the Tories, Lab, LD, or even Green either! Weren't the Tories equalyy culpable in not including such a statement?
Let's imagine a highly unlikely situation - the Tories were the largest party but without an overall majority - (I know that's a silly concept - even you said you would be delighted for the Tories to get as many as 22). However, under that scenario - everything you say would be as true for the Tories as it is fo9r the SNP now. Can we now look forward to the Tories including such a provisional statement in their next manifesto?
Of course not. Parties make a pitch, but voters aren't stupid (OK some are). You party hacks really have no idea what makes the rest of us (who may be committed to an ideal, but not a party) are all about.
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#178ScotInnotts
Must you always keep your hammer blow till your last phrase?
Look, apart from the obvious
Transport
food
degree material/books/stationary ect
Do you expect these student to turn up naked for university and depressed because their parents cant afford to keep a non income family member.
I suppose you would also want to see an end to the bursary kids get for staying on at school.
Hard choices eh?.
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#179Oldnat
I wont embarrass you on your listed nonsense.
The age of austerity is a tory slogan Oldnat, I never took you to be a conservative by intention.
The first Scottish budget some 10 years ago was set at 15Bn, it has more than double from then, with a built in 2Bn loan if need and dont forget the 3p tax right, to increase or decrease.Over 35Bn to embrace, to invest, to create and make Scotland a better place and the SNP cant even control that budget, and they want to lead Scotland into Independence.
All these question you ask are for an opposition party, right now! I would gladly take a new party at Holyrood than the present.
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#184 giggle
"All these question you ask are for an opposition party"
Exactly! You are one. Have you still not recognised that?
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#185
Hee Hee, well this cancer patient will have to retire for some rest.
Hi Ho silveraway. ciao.
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173. At 03:34am on 25 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
169. At 02:55am on 25 Sep 2009, JRMacClure
The failure of others to keep to their pledges, promises and flagship policies is hardly a justification for the SNPs' broken promises.
Or you can't admit that meeting promises are simply often not within one's power. Honestly, you sound a bit like a child whose mother didn't give them a promised sweetie. "BUT you promised." Mom says, "But the car broke down." Kiddie says, "BUT you promised."
AND your analysis is dishonest.
Classrooms with 18 pupils or under P1,2,3 - Partially met
1,000 more police officers- forced on them - MET
'Tourism will be a key priority' - MET. The Homecoming Celebration certainly qualified as making that a goal.
You wanna PROVE that assertion that to this American that the al-Megrahi release has affected tourism? Come up with any proof that there is a decrease in USA tourism. So what there is a "boycott Scotland" website. I can make any website I want to for $10. Prove it has has even the slightest impact on tourism.
Beyond that, you know that your assertion that a minority government should be able to FORCE THROUGH programs without having the votes is absurd. It's not worth discussing.
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#187 JRMacClure
I gather the website is actually registered in Canada. Is it less than $10 there? or is that "American patriot", simply anti-American as well as anti-everyone else?
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The head of the army in Scotland has resigned after a high-profile clash with the Ministry of Defence over the war in Afghanistan.
Major-General Andrew Mackay once claimed that senior commanders in the country were just “making it up as we go along” in the absence of any top-down leadership.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/scotland-s-top-soldier-quits-after-row-over-afghanistan-1.922045
Any thoughts? What do the Tories say about Afghanistan? Anyone think they'll get you out of this quagmire you insisted on following us Americans into?
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#187 Well that's not quite how domain registration works here. (I'm not sure how it works over there.)
I don't think where you are makes any difference to the cost of domains. To the best of my knowledge companies that sell domains here such as GoDaddy (largest in this country) don't charge more to Canadians. I suspect that would be illegal as a matter of fact.
However, the owner of boycottscotland.com which anyone can look up with a whosis search is Domain Privacy Group, Inc. I have read that corporation is actually registered in New York state. I have read of numerous news agencies trying to contact this supposed corporation/person and so far as far as I can tell none have received any response at all. I emailed them myself and received no response. They seem to basically be non-existant. If they were a serious entity they would certainly be responding to news organizations questions.
The US government has never supported any such thing and has made it abundantly clear that it never will. I have yet to meet a single fellow American who had the slightest interest in boycotting Scotland. Not one.
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By the way, that whosis search showed that boycottscotland was purchased through and is hosted by a US firm called Netfirms which advertises domains and hosting for a cost of $7.99 a month.
Not exactly hard to do.
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Here is a question for Dean, how many of the manifesto pledges made by the tory, libs or labour parties have been kept? Why haven't they been kept? Is it because they have lied during the elections? No, it's because they are not in the majority in Holyrood.
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# 179 oldnat
You are just wasting your time. You know that Derek has no intentions of debating any political points. He just wants to throw as much muck as he can muster at a non unionist party.
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# 158 JRMacClure
I accept what you are saying and I may have some sympathy with Obama's point of view. However, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist. Sad, but true.
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Having watched first minister's questions for a second time its pertinent to continue Annabel Goldie's analogy of Salmond and Hyslop as head boy and prefect and say that Annabel and Iain Gray look more and more like the school bullies. Big, ugly, threatening and vacuous.
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Online Ed Here
Brownedov: Thanks for your help on the senate vote.
The Scottish media have started the by-election campaign in earnest bu headlining any and every Labour claim. The aim is two fold; to present Fiona Hyslop as being under pressure and to persuade the electorate that the SNP do not keep promises.
The Unionists have been desperate for some kind of resignation since the SNP came to power in 2007, Megrahi was supposed to provide it - it didn't - hence the media campaign we are seeing now.
The 'broken promises' mantra is an old one, it merely demands that the media set impossible standards and then report that those standards have not been met, in Hyslops case the improvements are simply ingored. Thus we see a relatively successfull minister being portrayed as some kind of inept individual who should be sacked.
It is easy, it is blatant and I for one hope that it fails.
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#194. At 06:46am on 25 Sep 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
# 158 JRMacClure
I accept what you are saying and I may have some sympathy with Obama's point of view. However, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist. Sad, but true.
That is true. But what do you call it when someone is held in prison and tortured? Can I say that the only place that ever happened was Kenya? Of course not because you would then justifiably point to Guantanamo or hidden CIA bases.
But does someone being a terrorist in the LEAST excuse torturing them? Well, you may have a different answer to that than I do. And that, my friend, I consider sad. Sometimes it's a sad old world.
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# 196 U14094468
The point is, will the people of Glasgow NE see this obvious tactic by the whole of the Scottish media? I hope that the voters in Glasgow NE will not forget the atrocious behaviour of the UK labour government and the labour MPs. Has anyone heard whether the police are to bring any charges against the MPs that were caught with their snouts in the trough? I can't find anything about it anywhere.
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191. JRMacClure
Domain Privacy Group is acting as a proxy, ensuring privacy for the domain registrant.
I'd have thought that, having registered the domain through Netfirms, the registrant would have taken it in conjunction with a hosting package but, although their prices are low, you have to pay for two years in advance (106USD minimum). So, buying their cheapest hosting/domain package would require advance payment of 113.99USD. That's not the kind of investment that I'd expect from a fly-by-night but s/he may be highly motivated.
The location of the domain registrar or hosting provider doesn't tell us anything about the site owner. For all we know s/he could be a UK-based mischief-maker!
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# 197 JRMacClure
There are countless cases where torture has been shown to work. Personally, I am against it but I am sensible enough to realise that this is not a perfect world and imperfect things will be done. I just hope that it is not done as a matter of course.
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199. Well, I believe you can pay for only one year in advance but then the price per month goes up slightly. But come on. $113 isn't much more than pocket change. I easily spend more than that for a night out.
I don't know a thing about Domain Privacy Group except that I've read that they're registered in NY State. You're probably right about their purpose. For all we know the domain belongs to an entity I won't name. ;-)
Haha! I think we had the same thought.
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200. We obviously have very different moral beliefs on torture and some things are best not discussed since our opinions won't be changed. Once you accept treating human beings as less than animals... I like you and there is no point in arguing something that is belief based.
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201. JRMacClure
Generally speaking, hit-and-run web warriors don't like to spend money. They'd rather make use of free trials than pay for hosting. Looks like this one intends to boycottscotland for a while. :)
I own a web hosting and domain registration company, so I've run into a few hosting hobos over the years.
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203. You're right that it looks like someone who can at least pay for a year's hosting (or month to month at least) and seems to be updating the site.
The web design is non-existent. It's extremely crudely done. Unappealing to the eye. Of course, that could be by design also--trying to look like a "regular guy". It probably wouldn't have gotten more than a dozen hits if it hadn't gotten all that free advertising from BBC.
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153. ScotInNotts
"What struck me was the blatant misrepresentation of the issue on both programmes to score political points..."
Reprehensible as this is, I would deem the media's conduct worse as it is an essential part of their function to defend the public against the lies of politicians. The sword of truth and the shield of virtue have been cast aside. Or worse! In many cases these have fallen into the hands of mercenaries in the service of the party political machine and its clients.
It may be argued that a certain distrust of political elites is a healthy thing. But when it is no longer possible to have faith in the organs whose purpose it is to express that scepticism, our democracy has been afflicted with a serious malady.
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Ah! The arrogance and ignorance of youth is well presented in our future Tory spokesperson.
There is ONE Scottish Conservative MP - he is lonely.
There are more Scottish Conservatives in Holyrood because of the voting system, otherwise there might only be ONE Scottish Conservative in Holyrood.
Are the BBBC presenters going to don their rosettes and stand for election?
Impartial?
In my long lifetime no party has ever fulfilled its manifesto promises , for whatever reason.
I am also aware that Scotland has ,like the North of England , been exploited then ignored by Westminster Governments.
The SNP has not completed its first term , and though I am impatient for my country to stand on its own two feet and speak to the world, I am aware that time is on our side.
Hoewever, unlike any Party before it ,I do not remember the media taking such a partisan line , to the point of regurgitating Labour Party smears ,lies and spin as fact, as they do with anything related to the SNP.
I am astonished that they can peddle the same old rubbish about Mr Megrahi and get away with it, I am also extremely alarmed that they can get away with it.
A media which lies and spins is a danger to us all , no matter which colour one wears.
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To DEANTHETORY ET AL: What I don't understand is how the SNP can be accused of "another broken promise" with regard to class sizes when they are still only half way through this administrative period??
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151. BlooToon
That certainly makes sense, and seems to reflect the current approach (at least re: class sizes).
I was also particuarly keen to determine whether or not the goals should be a central government responsibility, or whether some or body/s should be setting them.
The gist of what you say, and what is the case at the moment is the goals are set by central govt. I'm sure there are other models too, and these are where educational reform lies.
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200. At 07:44am on 25 Sep 2009, gedguy2 wrote:
# 197 JRMacClure
There are countless cases where torture has been shown to work.
yeah, watch the speeches at any political party conference :)
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152. oldnat
Certainly, yet the education system must still conform in some way to the (hopefully well formed and intentioned) aims and aspirations of the nation (currently represented by government).
So, I don't disagree with what you suggest as a model of how it might work, but it still needs monitored, coordinated and if necessary adjusted in line with more general goals at the national level.
I think the education of a country would be better served by being insulated (to some greater or lesser extent) form the every-few-year to and fro of governmental change. Is it possible that a body which sits relatively independent of government could be created to design, coordinate, and guide the education system, in manner more stable and persistent over time.
It's composition would require great care - otherwise we'd end with all the usual suspects governing it, from captains of industry, and career politicians, to clergymen - all sticking their oar in.
Feasible?
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157. giggletheloneranger
Again, see my response #139, if you ever feel like not ignoring responses to your endless repeats.
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160. giggletheloneranger
"Truth and accuracy, good combination and very relevant to the now position.The SNP have clearly been found wanting on their manifesto pledge and the incompetence goes right back to the first budget."
So a minority government failing to fulfill it's entire manifesto is simply conflated with incompetence? Truth and accuracy giggles!
"If want to enthuse the people and lead them to Independence then surely your pledges of truth must be accurate and if you fail to deliver on those pledges, then by rule of nature you are also forfeiting the right of confidence and people will be less likely to vote for Independence, through the lack of truth and accuracy."
"Pledge of Truth"! where do pull that one from. So that's your definition of a manifesto commitment - A Pledge of Truth! lol! funny giggles!
What next? ah, "The Rule of Nature"! ...good grief...
Usual stuff in the "Voice of Backside"!
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Re Class sizes and Higher education
Most of te SNP posters are finding the reality of the current situation rather difficult to deal with. This is clearly a broken promise on class sizes, but so what? Name me a government that doesn't break promises, it is what they all do. This lot are no better than any other.
The problem here is the policy is wrong, completely wrong. I agree with Oldnat when he says that the policy should be left to local communities to decide, not central government wherever that may be.
Also what most people seem to miss is that it makes no difference how many are in your class if the discipline in the school is poor and the teachers are crap.
the real scandal of what Fiona Hasnae a clue announced yesterday is that she is giving local authorities the legal power to sentence more kids to suffer a poor start in this way. this is the most shameful episode of the SNP government to date.
The SNP have done absolutely nothing to improve teaching standards and root out the incapable.
There is now an oversupply of teachers so there is scope for getting rid of the useless. They need to get a grip of the quality issue, that is the most serious barrier to improving education.
Look at the HMI inspection website for schools in the poorer areas of Scotland. Read some of the comments. Reduced class sizes are not the issue.
But that would take political courage, something sorely lacking in this government.
Regarding Higher Education, what a load of crap PMK posted. There is no universal right to a free degree.
The SNP government have made a mess of this whole issue. they have failed to abolish student debt and failed to fund higher education. there needs to be some fresh thinking.
Why should the hard pressed taxpayer be asked to fund such a commitment? Government funding should be targetted to the types of Higher education that the country needs. We are currently short of Civil Engineers, that type of course should attract maximum funding. We don't need graduates in the History of Fine Art, so that course should attract He Haw.
Why should the taxpayer fund degrees in subjects they don't benefit from for people who go and contribute to the economy of a different country?
We need fresh thinking on this issue and not a government that is set on managing decay.
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200. gedguy2
And JRMacClure, if either of you are interested.
You can't trust a tortured brain: Neuroscience discredits coercive interrogation
Just for info - not to reopen a discussion.
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Its pretty basic really:
A broken promise is an undertaking or commitment which you deliberately make no attempt to honour.
Doing your best to achieve something but failing to deliver it, is not a broken promise.
Recognising that something is not achievable in the short to medium term, but being honest about it and proposing an achievable alternative is pragmatic.
Blaming your parents for the rain which prevents you going to the park is juvenile.
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Excuse me while I stop laughing.
from the article "BBC 'should recruit more Tories'" in the netertainment scetion (not sure they realise how entertaining it is):
"Mr Bradshaw responded: "This is unacceptable political interference in the BBC by the Tory Party.
"There are many Conservatives at the BBC but its journalists, whatever their private political views, are subject to strict rules of impartiality, which the BBC has a duty to enforce."
A BBC spokeswoman said: "Clearly we do not recruit people on the basis of their political views. We have not, and would not, recruit people in this way.
"Accuracy and impartiality are at the heart of BBC News and what's key to us is that the people working for us produce and deliver high-quality news that our audiences trust and value.""
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#213 Northhighlander
Excellent post... well said.
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213. northhighlander
"This is clearly a broken promise on class sizes, but so what?"
The only thing that is clear is the desperate need of the Tory/BLP alliance to misrepresent it as such. It comes as no surprise to me that nether this despicable cabal nor its supporters and apologists are totally bewildered by the concept of a statement of principle. Principles are not familiar territory for them.
Nor would I expect these unionist ideologues to acknowledge that the Scottish government remains committed to the principle and continues to seek ways of achieving the stated goal against a background of extraordinary financial constraints and the destructive purposes of a totally unprincipled parliamentary opposition.
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213. northhighlander
"Government funding should be targetted to the types of Higher education that the country needs."
The purpose of education is the improvement of the individual - to the ultimate benefit of society as a whole. Many of the problems in our education system have arisen precisely as a result of the shallow-minded and short-sighted policy of devoting education increasingly to the service of private profit rather than the purposes of an enlightened and inclusive society.
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#215 Caledonian 54 - never a truer post has appeared on this blog. The problem is some people just cannot manage to remove the blinkers. The problem the opposition party's have is every single one of them have done exactly what they are complaining about the SNP doing on this occasion .If (god forbid) labour get back into power just watch they will all do it again because they are "politicians" and that is what politicians do when they don't have any ideas of there own.
Pathetic really.
Sid
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Let's get one thing perfectly clear. Smaller class sizes are an undoubted benefit to the education of children, particularly in the first few years of primary school.
This is without doubt and has always been the reason why as a general rule small rural schools provide better levels of literacy and numeracy than larger urban ones. Better teaching or better teachers of course have a significant effect but, all things being equal, the smaller the class the better the opportunity for the children.
Thus the last Labour administration made pledges about class size reductions on which it totally failed unlke the SNP effort which has had some notable success in some areas and has propelled class sizes to their lowest ever level in Scotland.
That said the SNP pledge was made in the expectation of continued levels of funding and this obviously could not factor in the Brown bust which has seriously damaged public finances for a generation. I would imagine the biggest problem facing the Finance Secretary is the enormous PFI education debt, the full extent of which is now becoming obvious.
The escalating sums being spent annually paying for schools which Labour boasted of building but which they did not pay for is coming now directly out of the education budget.
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The desperation of the unionists?
Ammounting to no better than a Jehova Witnesses mailshot leaflet spreading doom and gloom. The same old, same old waffle, trying to cover all the angles in a desperate attempt to convince us that wer'e better off having someone else manage our afairs. And everything we try to do to move on is rubbished and ridiculed as if it were a half botched job by some low rate.
"Wer'e aw doomed!"?
I've had enough of the doom merchants. I'm weary of being held down and kept in my place. It is beyond my capabilities of reasoning why people actually choose to be subjugated in such a way.
Go on, empower yourself, choose freedom.
Not a big television.
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Dean,
You rightly claim that the SNP did not overtly include a caveat that their manifesto pledges would only be implemented should a majority be gained.
I'd say that was inherent in any manifesto.
I'd also say that not even majority government manifestos are ever delivered in full for another reason. "Events, dear boy, events!"
Circumstances change over 4 years - Global, economical, environmental, local. Even the "not for turning lady" redirected the odd policy to accommodate a changing world over a parliamentary cycle.
As a matter if interest, what disclaimer did the Tories put on their 2007 manifesto pledges? Majority Govt? Minority Govt? Coalition? More than 10 seats?
I'm afraid your agrument that a manifesto is a cast iron contract is ridiculous, and frankly you are setting yourself up as a hostage to fortune following CMD's likely success at Westminster next year.
Good luck with that.
Feel free to retract your position in the way you feel most appropriate.
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#175. At 03:40am on 25 Sep 2009, deanthetory wrote:
... under Proportional Represenation Scottish elections, where gaining a parliamentary majority is hardly the most likely or expected outcome that somehow the public just knew that all these broken promises were really only ment to have been kept to- if there was a majority. ...
the SNP made undeliverable pledges in 2007- undeliverable due to the very nature of PR politics, but made them anyway, cynically knowing that they'd have to break them.
And just how many of the Tory manifesto pledges have you kept?
Just because you are not in Government, by your argument above, you must still keep those cynical promises you made.
Why no inquiry into local government when you managed Calman?
etc., etc., ad nauseam.
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#69 - Deanthetory -
"And what about the SNP pledge on social housing? Oh thats right- Swinney swindled the public on that one! What did he do to social housing for Scotlands most vulnerable and needy? He CUT, SLICED AND DICED the hopes and asperations of thousands with his £170milllions of cuts..."
Funny how you've suddenly become such an outspoken ambassador for social housing when
not that long ago you were preaching to us all how "the best way to improve peoples living conditions is to enable them to . . own the property themselves."
Change of heart? Change of policy? Or just the kind of rank, mealy-mouthed hypocrisy the public's so heartily sick of enduring from its elected representatives?
You wonder why the 'youth', as you so patronisingly describe them, aren't enagaged politically? Well, here's the news - you're the problem not the solution. You and every other shamelessly one-eyed political careerist who's happy to pay lip service to the needs of the most vulnerable members of society - as long as it suits the strategy of the moment - but dismisses them as soon as the political wind changes.
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213 Northhighlnder
"Regarding Higher Education, what a load of crap PMK posted. There is no universal right to a free degree.
The SNP government have made a mess of this whole issue. they have failed to abolish student debt and failed to fund higher education. there needs to be some fresh thinking."
What an excellent contribution, honestly- hats off.
The problem with the current SNP executive is that they have been systematically reducing the ability of Universities to garnish funding independent of government. Since the abolition of the graduate endow there has been a serial fall in university additional spending powers, as budgets contract due to the recession and the SNP created overreliance on central government funding.
As a case in point I submit my own University, having had to halt contruction for a year of residences regeneration, becuase since grad endow was abolished and replaced with the less than satisfactory central gov handout- there has been a major contraction in resources.
A contraction of resources at a time when mre students than eve seek a place at Scotlands excellent universities, avoiding the recession as it is.
So I'd like to agree when you say that "fresh thinking" is required, we need universities to be capable of raising their funds free of central government. This kind of power-pull is typical of the current SNP executive, pulling authority and/or resources away from localities towards Holyrood. At least in higher education the results are now being felt, and its the education system which is hurting.
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213. northhighlander
"Most of te SNP posters are finding the reality of the current situation rather difficult to deal with. This is clearly a broken promise on class sizes, but so what? Name me a government that doesn't break promises, it is what they all do. This lot are no better than any other."
Quite the contrary, it is mainly the SNP supporting posters here who are quite open and relaxed about the fact that in a minorty govenernment, some commitments will be met, some will be moved towards,and some will be failed. It is the unionist posters who keep carping on about it, yet never explaining what they ought to do - beyond not aspire to a set of goals in their manifesto.
"The problem here is the policy is wrong, completely wrong. I agree with Oldnat when he says that the policy should be left to local communities to decide, not central government wherever that may be."
Remember you said that, it'll come in handy a few lines down
"Also what most people seem to miss is that it makes no difference how many are in your class if the discipline in the school is poor and the teachers are crap.
the real scandal of what Fiona Hasnae a clue announced yesterday is that she is giving local authorities the legal power to sentence more kids to suffer a poor start in this way. this is the most shameful episode of the SNP government to date."
If poor discipline and 'crap teachers' are, in your analysis, making Scottish education poor - are you seriously suggesting that a 'crap teacher' would not benifit from a fewer pupils in their class, or that individual children would not benefit from more individual contact as a result of smaller class sizes?!
Anyway, given that the government have decided that they feel smaller class sizes are a good way to proceed (we may disagree), it is hardly 'shameful' of them to seek to implement their chosen policy.
"The SNP have done absolutely nothing to improve teaching standards and root out the incapable." Back up a few lines. Now, why is this policy best left in the hands of central government, and not in the hands of head teachers and education departments? - they the employers of 'incapable' teachers,and implementers of standards. Make up your mind, and at least keep your spiel consistent!
"There is now an oversupply of teachers so there is scope for getting rid of the useless. They need to get a grip of the quality issue, that is the most serious barrier to improving education."
See above as to making your mind about about government or local control here. Also, even if there was some magical mechanism for surveying the field of teachers to see which ones were good or bad (and get it right) - do you imagine it is easy to simply get rid of teachers who are, by some definition, 'bad' and replace them with the 'good'?
"Look at the HMI inspection website for schools in the poorer areas of Scotland. Read some of the comments. Reduced class sizes are not the issue."
What are the poorer areas of Scotland? What comments, can you give me a link? What is it that is the issue - since you know? You seem to be able to tell very easily what the SNP are wrong in addressing, tell me what is it they should be addressing specifically.
"But that would take political courage, something sorely lacking in this government."
What would take political courage - reading comments on the HMI website? Or not doing what they think it is they ougth to do, and instead do what you think they ought to do? - even though you still haven't said what!
"Regarding Higher Education, what a load of crap PMK posted. There is no universal right to a free degree."
A first degree requires some tuition, and a graduation based on passing the course by whatever means they test it. The tuition is free, there is no fee to graduate. A first degree in scotland is free. It's not a right, but it's a fact in the current educational system in Scotland under the SNP, but I wouldn't expect you to accept facts.
"The SNP government have made a mess of this whole issue. they have failed to abolish student debt and failed to fund higher education. there needs to be some fresh thinking.
Why should the hard pressed taxpayer be asked to fund such a commitment? Government funding should be targetted to the types of Higher education that the country needs. We are currently short of Civil Engineers, that type of course should attract maximum funding. We don't need graduates in the History of Fine Art, so that course should attract He Haw.
"
What commitment are taxpayer being asked to fund?
Civil Engineering needs to work harder to make itself an attractive career, and students will enroll. If students enroll, the funding which Civil Engineering departments attract will rise proportionately.
"Why should the taxpayer fund degrees in subjects they don't benefit from for people who go and contribute to the economy of a different country?
We need fresh thinking on this issue and not a government that is set on managing decay.
"
Regarding subjects which you disparage, higher education is not solely for the economic benefit of the country, and even where economic benefit accrues, it doesn't always do so in obvious and direct ways.
Regarding benefits going out of the country - are suggesting that graduates have their passports removed, and that we don't teach foreigners, who might go home?!
Fresh thinking indeed!
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213. northhighlander
"Why should the hard pressed taxpayer be asked to fund such a commitment? Government funding should be targetted to the types of Higher education that the country needs. We are currently short of Civil Engineers, that type of course should attract maximum funding. We don't need graduates in the History of Fine Art, so that course should attract He Haw.
Why should the taxpayer fund degrees in subjects they don't benefit from for people who go and contribute to the economy of a different country?
We need fresh thinking on this issue and not a government that is set on managing decay."
Trully well said. Honestly.
North hits on the reality facing higher education in Scotland well, but he makes the point about a lack of selection in education better.
Selection towards targeting education towards what the child is best at, and also what society needs to produce more of.
Selection so that kids with a natural ability at a skilled job, such as electrician, can recieve an education suited towards this skill inherent in the child. Selection for excellence as it where.
North is entirely correct to call for an end to the liberal-consensus nonsense about "every child has a fundamental right to a 1st degree". Nonsense, every child has a funamental right to recieve an education targeted best towards their skills, their abilities- not targeted towards some liberalist ideological idealism.
Scottish higher education is sick after 8 years of lib-lab misrule under devolution, and now stagnating under the SNP executive.
No fresh thinking, and what was the response after England overtook us in higher/A-LEVEL pass rates? More wishy washy nonsense about "considering broader pictures". No erm, Scotland needs, is crying out for a radical new approach to education.
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217. deducted3points
What?
government shouldn't be meddling! followed by - government should be meddling!
Only fund higher education in subjects that correspond to what northhighlander thinks is of economic benefit?
Keep graduates in this country?
Or
SNP bad - me no like!?
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219. Electric Hermit
"The purpose of education is the improvement of the individual - to the ultimate benefit of society as a whole. Many of the problems in our education system have arisen precisely as a result of the shallow-minded and short-sighted policy of devoting education increasingly to the service of private profit rather than the purposes of an enlightened and inclusive society."
Exactly. One of the major problems we have as a society is that everything is tied to the economic bottom line. The economy should be a product of our society, not the other way around. Higher education is an example of this, but it's not as far gone as some other areas - we can pull it back.
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223. At 11:18am on 25 Sep 2009, dear_wendy
""Events, dear boy, events!"
Circumstances change over 4 years - Global, economical, environmental, local. Even the "not for turning lady" redirected the odd policy to accommodate a changing world over a parliamentary cycle."
The issue is that this pledge wasn't idle promises, most naturally to be abandoned due to minority exeuctive rule. But this school class sizes was a flagship policy, much like LIT which the SNP have failed to impliment. For whatever reasons, some fair enough frankly- the point remains that the SNP cannot impliment even their core political philosphy, then what is their point?
We Scottish tories have managed to impliment more of our flagship policies in opposition than the SNP seem to have done in government!
Our pledge to regenerate Scotlands community city centres - MET with a £60 millions towncentre regeneration package.
Our pledge to cut business rates tax - MET, through negotiation and engagement with the SNP during the budget process (unlike Liberals or Labour)
Our pledge to see 1,000 more police officers - MET having forced the SNP to impliment it again as part of parliamentary negotiation and engagement.
We seem to have kept more flagship pledges in opposition than otherwise the SNP have kept as the Scottish Exexcutive!
Sad state of affairs frankly.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Didn't see that one coming. Everyone else may as well pack their bags now. IMHO, Clever thing for the Tories, Nats and LDs to do would be to do a "Martin-Bell" style party withdrawl and leave a "truly independent" candidate to defeat the NuLab Clone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8274282.stm
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225. At 11:36am on 25 Sep 2009, Bandages_For_Konjic
Hardly any contradiction at all. Unless you subscribe to political extremes like yourself of course.
I want to see people have the equality of opportunity to own their own home.
HOWEVER
this still doesnt mean to say I dont want social housing to be made available, and kept available.
Why do you insist on forcing the people of Scoland to choose between total-state provision, which crushes asperation, or between outright privatisation- again a quash to the needs of any?
Your kind of either/or mentality is more suited to the Scotland of the 1970's, sad really how some cannot modernise their attitudes to realise that a MIXED APPROACH is sometimes called for.
Hardly hypocracy by be at all, merely a position more complicated than a man of extremes like you seem able to comprehend.
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216. John__ wrote:
Excuse me while I stop laughing.
"Accuracy and impartiality are at the heart of BBC News and what's key to us is that the people working for us produce and deliver high-quality news that our audiences trust and value.""
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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
I haven't laughed so much in ages.
I complained to the BBC about the bias over the al-Megrahi release:
{Summary:} Bias against the current Scottish government and the BBC ICM Research poll
{Complaint:} I believe that the BBC has breached it's impartiality over the release of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. The ICM Research poll that was commissioned by the BBC to in an obvious attempt to back up unsupported views that the majority of Scots are against the compassionate release of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi was bias in the extreme. The way the questions were slanted to give the desired answers was disgraceful and terribly transparent. There were no adequate weightings applied to the poll, so no-one can be sure if the sample was representative (if indeed a sample of 1005 can be representative at all).
Furthermore, on the BBC Radio Scotland phone in there were "pleadings" from Shereen Nanjiani for anyone who was against the decision of Mr MasAskill to "please phone in". She did not receive much success. This would suggest thatthe BBC has got it wrong on thier view that the majority of Scots were against the decision.
And worse still, last week on BBC Radio Scotland one of the presenters (I don't know the name of the male presenter) was heard to say to Iain Gray, Leader of the Labour Party in Scotland that this (the ICM Poll) would "give him (Iain Gray) ammunition for next week" when the Justice Minister Mr KennyMacAskill will be questioned over his decision to release al-Megrahi.
Much of the political coverage on BBC Newsnight Scotland has been very similar in it's bias against SNP politicians. They are treated rudely and they are interrupted when trying to answer questions. This doesn't seem to happen when there is a politician of a Unionist persuasion being interviewed.
This bias against the Scottish government is becoming so blatant that I feelthere is nothing else to be done except complain. I would like to know who in the BBC commissioned the ICM poll, who set the questions, and why there were no political weightings applied to the poll.
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I recieved the following poor response - Many of the points I raised were totally ignored. So much for accuracy and impartiality!
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Thanks for your e-mail. Your comments were passed to the News Editor, who has asked that I forward his response as follows: "Thank you for your e-mail regarding the ICM attitudes survey conducted for the BBC, on views surrounding the release of the Lockerbie bomber. As I am sure you are well aware, there was much claim and counter claimfrom Scotland's political parties over whether public opinion supported orcondemned the release of Mr Megrahi. As a contribution to this debate and with a clear intention of betterinforming our viewers and listeners, we decided to commission research.This research was based on more than 1,000 interviews carried out withpeople right across Scotland. This is felt by those who are expert in thefield of polling to be a good sample of opinion. We always refer to opinionpolls as suggesting, rather than categorically reflecting, the views of thepublic. We have carefully thought through guidelines on polling, which havebeen developed over many decades of experience in this field. While I respect your views and comments, BBC Scotland is content that thispoll was carried out according to our guidelines and was an importantcontribution to the debate around the release of Mr Megrahi. It is also worth pointing out that we have not received any complaint fromthe political parties regarding this poll. They were all given ample opportunities to comment on the poll and to add their own context. We're sorry you feel we are biased against the SNP politicians on NewsnightScotland. It is our job on Newsnight Scotland to test the proposals ofpoliticians. If we allowed politicians to avoid questions withoutinterruption, many of our viewers would feel we were letting them off thehook. We also take considerable care in ensuring that all interviewees aretreated fairly and are given ample opportunities to respond to questions. Our task is to ask the questions likely to be in the minds of informedlisteners and to seek answers. This can lead to forceful and persistentquestioning but, in our experience, politicians expect their views to bescrutinised and they respond with corresponding firmness." We appreciate you taking the time to contact us with your concerns and I'dlike to assure you that we have registered your comments on our audiencelog. This is the internal report of audience feedback which we compiledaily for all programme makers and commissioning executives within the BBC,and also their senior management. It ensures that your points, and all other comments we receive, are circulated and considered across the BBC. Thanks again for taking the time to contact the BBC.
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Brian,
Still not a word from this website on the SG's Opportunities for Broadcasting discussion paper, I see. Is the plan to ignore it and hope it goes away?
It's in the Scotsman again today, with their unusually impartial Salmond defends his controversial broadcasting plans.
Apart from the strictly factual nature of what it says, the article is particularly unusual in having none of the usual rentaquotes from NuLab or the Tories. Even the LD's Scott is only quoted from FMQs.
Surely the other Holyrood parties have a position on it, don't they? If not, could the BBC be waiting to see what NuLab have to say before mentioning the paper at all?
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Further to my #225 - another of Dean's pearls of wisdom from the 'Keeping Time' thread - "Social housing isnt neccessary, private rental availability is increasingly widespread."
One minute "social housing isn't necessary", next minute you're attacking John Swinney's [Westminster imposed] reduction in funding.
Which is it? Necessary or not? Rank hypocrisy or not?
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PS to my #235
Ooops! My profuse apologies re the source of the article I link to.
Today was the Herald's turn for an impartial article not the Scotsman.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Re 221 Snecked again
The key phrase in your comment is "all things being equal" Clearly if you wish to view the HMI website all things are far from equal. therefore if you don't deal with the fundamental underlying problems then reducing class sizes will have less of an effect.
The real issue is tackling poor performing schools. pretending they don't exist or doing nothing is failing another generation of kids, sentenced to low self-esteem, poor health outcomes and never acieving their potential. Education is a key area if we are to develop as a nation.
We don't need independence to sort this we need a government that is prepared to do the difficult things, Labour didn't, the McChrone deal was the worst thing they did, it was so one sided, the SNP are another toothless tiger in this area.
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There has never been such forensic examination of a political party by the Scottish media as there has been of the SNP since they came to power. If BBC Scotland had been as vigilant when the Labour/Lib alliance was in power, and before that, then Scotland might be in a better state than it is now. In that respect the BBC must be culpable for the bad state of Scotland's social and fiscal wellbeing.
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231. deanthetory
"Sad state of affairs frankly."
Leaving aside your quasi-religious belief in these mythical Tory "victories", what is "sad" about the SNP's innovative consensual approach to government? I can assure you that, in the real world where most people don't have pictures of La Goldie above their beds, this "new politics" is welcomed as an invigoratingly refreshing change from the petty partisanship that continues to be the resort of the Tory/BLP machine.
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236. At 12:28pm on 25 Sep 2009, Bandages_For_Konjic
"Which is it? Necessary or not? Rank hypocrisy or not?"
I notice you fail to also mention my change of oposition later in that previous thread.
Nice try, desperate- but keep in going, you can't refute my points about the SNP record in government so you keep misquoting old posts...get out much?
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226. deanthetory
"The problem with the current SNP executive is that they have been systematically reducing the ability of Universities to garnish funding independent of government. Since the abolition of the graduate endow there has been a serial fall in university additional spending powers, as budgets contract due to the recession and the SNP created overreliance on central government funding."
Is this sytematic reduction composed of anything other than free tuition and no fee to gradaute? In which case the the Universities are free to garner funding via all the usual means by which they do so currently, like research funding, r&d collaborations, stakes in spinouts etc... It is far better for for Universities to aquire such funding as they need from a baseline of Government funding along with money they aquire as a result of their competence. Once higher education is not free to students, it won't take long before the market will dictate that the degrees worth having will be the ones which cost the most.
"As a case in point I submit my own University, having had to halt contruction for a year of residences regeneration, becuase since grad endow was abolished and replaced with the less than satisfactory central gov handout- there has been a major contraction in resources."
Insightful anecdote - when resources are squeezed, there's less to spend. I'm sure your University is still there, and if it excels it will find new streams of money by virtue of being good.
"A contraction of resources at a time when mre students than eve seek a place at Scotlands excellent universities, avoiding the recession as it is." More people than ever seek higher education, because the result of our long history of unionist government has resulted in a dearth of real and meaningful jobs, making it imperative that a convenient way be found to keep large numbers of people off the unemployment figures.
"So I'd like to agree when you say that "fresh thinking" is required, we need universities to be capable of raising their funds free of central government. This kind of power-pull is typical of the current SNP executive, pulling authority and/or resources away from localities towards Holyrood. At least in higher education the results are now being felt, and its the education system which is hurting."
Universities are well capable of finding funding from other sources, they are unhappy that their market (like everyone else's) is getting tighter - but they have found ears to hear their pleas to maintain easy money for themselves.
This is no power-pull, a free first degree was the previous state, it has been changed back to that.
The effects of our dreadful economy is being felt everywhere, why do you imagine that higher education would be different?
Fresh thinking is required - tell me when you find some.
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Not much balance in the Scotsman's Inflation fall gives Scottish Government '£1bn budget bonus', but at least the article gives Swinney the last word.
I hope Brian will be having some remedial maths lessons ready for the bickering that's sure to come over the budget.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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228. deanthetory
"Selection so that kids with a natural ability at a skilled job, such as electrician, can recieve an education suited towards this skill inherent in the child. Selection for excellence as it where."
Natural ability to be an electrician! What is that deanthetory? How is it determined? Are they sensitive to voltage drops nearby? What about hairdressers - Edward Scissorhands?!
deanthetory you outshine yourself! Comedy gold!
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#231 Dean,
So Dean, you are suggesting that the SNP should plow ahead with their core policies no matter what the liklihood of them being successfully implemented is. I assume that you would then support them were they to push for full independance, as it is one of their core policies?
In terms of the class sizes debate, I can see progress, and that is enough for me for now.
University funding does need to be sorted out, but don't dismiss the damage that was done to universities by forcing them to follow commercial programs of research. I know that research in the areas that I studied (Physics) has been hampered by the need to research into areas that may become commercially viable money spinners in future, rather than fundamental research that may only have very long term benefits (smacks of the same short term approach that was applied to the financial sector). Government funding for research in my opinion frees up the universities to research into non commercial areas that are not sponsored by indistry and so is not a bad thing per se. I like most people, however, would like more government money to be spent in that area, but as the mantra in this debate has been "what else would you cut?"
John
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Brownedov 235:
The BBC won't touch this story for the time being, they will simply headline whatever the Labour attack is.
I'm waiting for a kind of 'culture police' style of response from Labour, either that or a 'programming apartheid' as they suggest that Scots won't be allowed to watch their favourite 'pulp' shows from South of the border.
Another possibility is that this sort of stuff detracts from the current campaign and might lead to real and informative debate.
Talking of which, has anyone listened to the radio programme that Brian 'Chisholm' Taylor has been hosting recently - I ask only because I haven't.
Oh, anybody notice that Glenn 'Caused Outrage' Campbell's NY diary stopped suddenly after Monday? I wonder why that was, surely there was a US state press conference to be reported on as well as Global's meeting with Obama - they did meet didn't they?
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228. deanthetory
"No fresh thinking, and what was the response after England overtook us in higher/A-LEVEL pass rates? More wishy washy nonsense about "considering broader pictures". No erm, Scotland needs, is crying out for a radical new approach to education."
Unfortunately yours appears to be based on some garbled notion that kids display distinct and identifiable natural (evolved perhaps) talents for particular trades !
Genius. bring on the morlocks!
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#98 cynicalHighlander,
I'm interested..... what are the illegal wars that you claim the UK are currently engaged in?
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#160 Giggle
"Truth and accuracy, good combination and very relevant to the now position.The SNP have clearly been found wanting on their manifesto pledge and the incompetence goes right back to the first budget.
If want to enthuse the people and lead them to Independence then surely your pledges of truth must be accurate and if you fail to deliver on those pledges, then by rule of nature you are also forfeiting the right of confidence and people will be less likely to vote for Independence, through the lack of truth and accuracy."
People will be less likely to vote for Independence, through the lack of truth and accuracy - and that lack of truth and accuracy will come from the BBC and all the other unionist propaganda outlets that is feed this country.
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#232 Chiefly
I distrust this move. Are we to forget that he was paraded at the labour party conference that year. It is more likely (given that the group putting him forward is headed by a tory) that this is an attempt to prevent the SNP from taking the seat from labour, as disaffected labour supporters are more likely to vote for him than move over to the SNP (at least I suspect that this is the thinking). I will be curious to see how it pans out.
I do however think that he will not make a good representative for Glasgow North East, as what talents does he bring tot hat role (other than some undoubted bravery).
John
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News you may have missed.
There was recently a visit by to Holyrood by Roser Clavell, the Viceconsellera of the Generalitat Catalana (the Catalan govt.). Clavell gave a speech in Edinburgh during which she stated that "Catalunya sees Scotland as a close friend from which it can learn a great deal." The visit was widely reported in the Catalan language media. Clavell was particularly interested to hear the SNP's proposals for an independence referendum and said that "Scotland and Catalunya will be whatever their citizens want them to be."
So no damage to our international reputation there then. Will Glenn Campbell be jaunting off to Barcelona any time soon?
Oldnat - I've given up on Giggle. You write one thing and he understands something else. It's not just his spelling that's poor, he can't read either. And he pontificates on the topic of education. Oh the irony.
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There is a cliche usually employed after either of the old firm have lost an important European tie they expected to win - 'expect a backlash' say the pundits.
The old firm would then up their game dramatically in an attempt at hammering whoever their next opponents might be.
There's an element of this in the latest Unionist/BBC campaign against the SNP, the important Euro game was the Megrahi release and their disappointment at the missed opportunity can almost be felt.
If you don't believe me then try to recall the last time BBC Scotland scrutinised a Labour Westminser policy or attacked the Labour Government at Westminster.
Alternatively, can anyone tell me how many times Glenn Campbell mentioned the release of the Lockerbie bomber when broadcasting from the USA - now try to recall how many times Glenn mentioned the Prisoner Transfer Agreement.
I'll watch his USA diary with interest
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#241 - Deanthetory -
Misquoting? Show me one word I quoted that wasn't in one of your earlier posts. Just one.
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234 x-sticks, thanks for sharing your complaint to the BBC. The response will be familiar to those of us who have been down that futile road before.
I remember getting a similar response to a complaint about Newsnight. I actually had a look in the envelope for the legendary post it note saying:
" nutter, send this S.O.B the bug letter".
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Mrb
The point of local control versus central control is really rather easy to understand. Although for an SNP supporter it appears a difficult concept to grasp so let me explain. Central government set minimum standards that every local authority is required to achieve. That is a good thing. So for education the government should identify minimum standards. One measure of these would be measured by the HMI School report.
Councils are given money and left to decide how to deliver these standards.
Are you still following?
Then councils decide what resources go where in order to meet the standards, and the government keeps its nose out unless the required central standards are not being met. ( by reading the HMI reports)
Okay? Not to difficult so far?
Therefore setting a national maximum class numbers just restricts local innovation. It is a centralising instinct. I would prefer my child to be in a class of 35 in a good school with good discipline and a good teacher that consistently attains the required standards than in a class of 18 in a dump with poor discipline and a poor teacher that consistently does not achieve. I think most parents would agree with that.
Mrs Hyslop sentenced more children to poor standards yesterday and gave more power to councils to force children into substandard schools. She has done nothing to deal with the poor schools. She offers no new thinking at all.
Still following the logic?
What is needed is a government that tackles under performance. Surely not a difficult concept to grasp?
So when I referred to the inspection website you can I assume work Google, you will see many schools that perform poorly. You will see many schools that do very well. Why is there such a difference and from your comment that poor teachers would benefit from fewer pupils, I would argue they would benefit more from a career change. You seem to think schools exist to employ teachers! Teachers don't have a right to a job more than any other employee.
So a government that was managing local authority performance on achieving centrally applied standards would get to grips with the wide variation in performance.
I don't hate the SNP, in areas where they have done well I am happy to say so. Regular posters will have seen I have regularly praised the handling of the health service, it has been on the whole good. Why pretend any different?
Although you only seem to see good in the government. Your posts don't really reflect much balance at all.
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239. hamish42
"There has never been such forensic examination of a political party by the Scottish media as there has been of the SNP since they came to power."
I must take issue with your use of the term "forensic". This could be taken to imply rational, factual analysis of a kind which has been sadly absent from commentary on the Scottish government.
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#246 U14094468
"The BBC won't touch this story for the time being, they will simply headline whatever the Labour attack is."
That's certainly the way it's beginning to look, hence my #235's rather tongue-in-cheek last para.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Re Mr Bee
Regarding Higher education, The taxpayer funds the pot of money that is supposed to be inlieu of tuition fees. Okay so far? The main source of income for Universities is Central Government.
So the taxpayer has a say in what the money should achieve. I have never suggested that choice in higher education should be restricted, by stopping people from studying their chosen route. However I am saying that by not targetting money to courses that the nation needs to develop we are failing our young people in two clear ways.
First we are lowering standards at University. By trying to fund the system in the way we are we are lowering tuition time and standards. Our young people are not getting the education they are incurring debt for.
Secondly we peddle the myth that a degree in Photography or fine art is the way to lucrative career. Frequently it is not. It is a route to debt and a job in a call centre for many.
The choices our young face are not being clearly spelled out and many regret that this in later life. So personal enrichment may be a noble aspiration however for many it is a dead end.
I have two degrees, I worked full time while attaining both and paid for them myself. This took considerable Sacrifice from my family and myself. However both resulted in improved employment and a better life for my family.
You also rubbish Dean on his views on vocational training. Your view on this is really arrogant, in that every child should be forced through the same system irrespective of their talents.
Some kids will never attain 5 highers, some will never attain 5 standard grades. But they have to sit in classes that they can't achievie in because people like you say they must. Just so they are in no doubt about their weaknesses in life eh?
Why should they not be able to learn skills that will help them when they leave school? Vocational education teaches maths and science in a way that conventional education doesn't. Some people respond better to this approach. Why should they be denied the opportunity?
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257 Brownedov, Phil Miller at The Herald will enable them to kick off when they feel ready with the matchless term "wee pretendy BBC".
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Good to see Smeato running for Glasgow North East...
...that should split the Labour vote nicely :o)
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231. deanthetory
So you are saying that the SNP have implemented such items as you shared, by finding common ground in the detail, and have accomodated a minor policy of another party into their government business. I'm fine with that.
And you're crowing about how that means your conservative party are doing better than the SNP - very Westminster i'm sure it'd go down a storm south of the border, Thatcher'd be proud.
Looks to me like the SNP are party doing politics in a style most likely to appeal to Scottish voters!
Roll on the referendum...
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233. deanthetory
"this still doesnt mean to say I dont want social housing to be made available, and kept available."
That's what the 'right to buy' destroyed.
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233. deanthetory
"Why do you insist on forcing the people of Scoland to choose between total-state provision, which crushes asperation, or between outright privatisation- again a quash to the needs of any?"
Why do you support forcing the people of Scotland to sell off social housing at knock down prices?
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233. deanthetory
"Hardly any contradiction at all. Unless you subscribe to political extremes like yourself of course."
Yes, quite unlike your non-extreme notion of educating kids for future jobs on the basis of some fantasy natural selection scheme! lol!
Quite apart from it being the ravings of a truly deluded mind, it highlights your true blue old-school conservative colours - always bleating for the government to stop interfering in this that and the other (as in your manifesto), and let businesses (mmm profit...) get on with it, while at the same your conservative instinct is revealed in the desire for government to interfere in the very course of a person's life so that they become a more efficient cog in the economic machine.
Bandages_For_Konjic was dead right - you are the problem.
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234. X_Sticks
That's about what i'd expect as a reply sadly.
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#259 GrassyKnollington
Priceless! I particularly liked the touching concern that the Queen of Scots may "be unable to watch EastEnders" from Balmoral.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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248. deadgoatsociety
"I'm interested..... what are the illegal wars that you claim the UK are currently engaged in?"
War in Afghanistan (2001–present)
"However, an article published in March 2001 by Jane's, a media outlet serving the military and intelligence communities, suggests that the United States had already been planning and taking just such action against the Taliban six months before September 11, 2001."
Use of force to effect regime change is an illegal act according to the UN charter.
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Unconscious bias at the BBC - and the Guardian
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I think most posters on here should take a break and let dean and north get over their group hug session.
Where do you two get all the time to plagiarise the same stuff post after post after post?
Oh...the clue was in the question maybe.
Only joking, I really enjoy your contributions. I mean, you put up a valiant effort, being outnumbered by about 100/1 as you are.
Resistance is futile.
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226. deanthetory
"The problem with the current SNP executive..."
There's a good little drone. Obediently abiding by the Tory/BLP alliance's prohibition on referring to the Scottish government. Any little thing you can do to belittle, demean and undermine Scotland and its people.
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#193 gedguy2
giggle/derek and I aren't really addressing each other at all. Both of us are really talking to those who read this blog, but don't post. Some have still to make up their minds, and their votes matter.
giggle/derek uses the standard Labour technique of smear and misrepresentation. If not shown up for what they are, they might persuade someone to vote Labour. If my posting secures even one additional SNP vote, then I'm not wasting my time.
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258. northhighlander
"Secondly we peddle the myth that a degree in Photography or fine art is the way to lucrative career. Frequently it is not. It is a route to debt and a job in a call centre for many."
The same could be said of any degree. What's your point?
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#210 mrbfaethedee
More than feasible, I think - highly desirable. Few people understand (it is a very specialist field of research!) just how appalling Labour's Education Act in 2000 was. Essentially it took a particual (and unproved) management system - target setting - and applied that single management system to all Scotland's public schools.
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261. At 2:01pm on 25 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"Looks to me like the SNP are party doing politics in a style most likely to appeal to Scottish voters!"
So you claim, no numbers provided of course.
I do accept that the SNP remain strong in much of Scotland, but not in others. In the North-East, the SNP are indeed the most appealing party. However in the borders the Scottish Cons top the board, getting 34% in the euros (and enjoying a calculated ave of 30% acc to YouGov)...and Edinburgh- its neck and neck, with less than 100 votes between the Cons and SNP in the euros.
Eastwood(East Ren) is a very interesting third dimention. The SNP saw a major shift in Labour (barrhead) votes moving SNP, and 'New Labour' voters moving Conservative...perhaps Labour is finished there and it too will end as another SNP-Con marginal.
Its all very interesting, but your exaggerating if suggest that only the SNP are appealing to Scottish voters. The numbers simply don't bare that out.
264. At 2:17pm on 25 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"always bleating for the government to stop interfering in this that"
I want to have headteachers run local schools, not the SNP ministers in Edinburgh with their target setting.
I want to see less government and more localism- so yes your right I do bleat on and on about this. This matters to localities, this matters more than independence, or referendums.
"and let businesses (mmm profit...) get on with it"
What is wrong with profitable industry? Business creates jobs, it creates sustainable employment. Why do you oppose my defence of small employers- the very kind of job creators who help students like me pay our way through university.
"desire for government to interfere in the very course of a person's life so that they become a more efficient cog in the economic machine."
David Davis stood for relection at his by-election on the principal that personal individual liberty is vital for a healthy democracy.
It was the Conservatives who have done more to attack the picture of powerless individuals that you paint. We brought power to the people and away from government by allowing people to have a stake in their economy. We roled back the frontiers of the state, and granted power to the individual to prevent that they ever become that cogg.
So I think your misguided to say that we tories are the enemy of personal liberty. Not even Kinnock or Hattersley hold to this silly view.
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270. At 2:58pm on 25 Sep 2009, Electric Hermit
"There's a good little drone. Obediently abiding by the Tory/BLP alliance's prohibition on referring to the Scottish government. Any little thing you can do to belittle, demean and undermine Scotland and its people"
According to the laws of devolution as they stand there is a Scottish executive.
And by calling the SNP executive by their legally sanctioned name is hardly demeaning anyone, least of all the SNP.
And finally why do you hold that if someone criticises the SNP then they are criticising the Scottish people? Are all the non-SNP voters in Scotland not "Scottish" in your mind?
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255. northhighlander
"The point of local control versus central control is really rather easy to understand."
Excellent then i might just understand the wise words of an intellectual like yourself :)
"Although for an SNP supporter it appears a difficult concept to grasp so let me explain. Central government set minimum standards that every local authority is required to achieve. That is a good thing. So for education the government should identify minimum standards. One measure of these would be measured by the HMI School report.
Councils are given money and left to decide how to deliver these standards.
Are you still following?
Then councils decide what resources go where in order to meet the standards, and the government keeps its nose out unless the required central standards are not being met. ( by reading the HMI reports)
Okay? Not to difficult so far?
"
I think so, professor northhighlander sir!
This is essentially how things actually run at the moment, is it not. There exist educational targets, money flows to local council (why not education dept directly northhighlander?), council gives some/all to education dept, education dept gives to schools, schools teach to national curriculum, HMI checks up, rinse and repeat.
That's what already happens, yeeeeeeeees, think i've got it.
"Therefore setting a national maximum class numbers just restricts local innovation. It is a centralising instinct. I would prefer my child to be in a class of 35 in a good school with good discipline and a good teacher that consistently attains the required standards than in a class of 18 in a dump with poor discipline and a poor teacher that consistently does not achieve. I think most parents would agree with that."
What innovation does it restrict professor northhighlander? Enumerate some of the innovations which will not happen as a result of trying to reduce class sizes.
If i was in a class of 1 billion, if it was the best class in the world and the free pencils were made of gold, i'd love to be in the billion class. See that was easy!
Instead, lets keep different motivators apart - assuming the classes are the same quality, or that you can't tell which is better - which would you choose 18 or 35?
"Mrs Hyslop sentenced more children to poor standards yesterday and gave more power to councils to force children into substandard schools. She has done nothing to deal with the poor schools. She offers no new thinking at all.
Still following the logic?
"
I see your naked and unsupported assertion re: sentencing kids to poor standards. You also mention that she gave counclis more power (you were just advocating that), and i'm following your words, i'll post a separate announcement when the logic arrives!
"What is needed is a government that tackles under performance. Surely not a difficult concept to grasp?
So when I referred to the inspection website you can I assume work Google, you will see many schools that perform poorly. You will see many schools that do very well. Why is there such a difference and from your comment that poor teachers would benefit from fewer pupils, I would argue they would benefit more from a career change. You seem to think schools exist to employ teachers! Teachers don't have a right to a job more than any other employee.
"
Yes I can work Google (whatever that means), but unless you're mixed up (perish the thought, eh prof northhighlander) about the 'comments' on the HMI site, i fear I can no longer 'work my eyes', as I can see no 'comments'. I do see the reports, have read one skimmed a couple, and would find it entirely unsurprising that some do better than others.
I noticed you didn't answer your own question - why is there such a difference? I assume you know, since the government's attempts to address it are not adequate in your view, so share your wisdom great and wise northhighlander - we'll try to comprehend.
Sack them! So how do you find the poor teachers? Then presumably they will be given the option to retrain (imagine the tribunal damages otherwise), then be put back in to schools, then magically find the ones that are still bad desptite retraining, then what? can we just sack them - I doubt it, but you seem to know, so tell us.
OMG!!! I just realised - that was your solution to the poor education in Scotland, wasn't it!!! Find the 'poor' teachers and sack them! ( then presumably find at the next HMI that some schools do better than others - quick! Sack more teachers!!!)
By the way - i actually think that the poor education in Scotland isn't in anything like as bad nick as people are making out.
"So a government that was managing local authority performance on achieving centrally applied standards would get to grips with the wide variation in performance."
That's what you said at the start, that's what's happening now, but no - it doesn't 'get to grips with variations in performance' (what is that anyway, is that your idea of a target - it's suitably vague). There will always be performance variations. Sacking the 'poor' teachers, how do you define them? how to you find them? how do you sack them?
"I don't hate the SNP, in areas where they have done well I am happy to say so. Regular posters will have seen I have regularly praised the handling of the health service, it has been on the whole good. Why pretend any different?"
Why indeed! Of course that doesn't mean that when you disagree I should automatically think you correct.
"Although you only seem to see good in the government. Your posts don't really reflect much balance at all. "
If this is a follow from the previous sentence - balance doesn't mean sometimes agreeing with your opponents fo the sake of it.
'only seem to see good in the government' - not at all; for example, i only recently posted that i was very disappointed that the social housing budget was cut, and that the SNP better be working hard to find ways to get it back asap. I have also previously stated that I support the SNP primarily as the most likely strategy by which we will get independence. Further, on this very thread I have stated that we should get rid of political parties - i'm no activist or 'cyber-nat', but don't don't let that get in the way of your thinking.
So when you say my posts don't reflect much balance - if you mean they are all mine, from my personal viewpoint - well professor northhighlander, count me guilty.
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#233: Deanthetory -
"Hardly any contradiction at all. Unless you subscribe to political extremes like yourself of course."
How am I subscribing to political extremes? Are you suggesting that I'm vacillating between two (Or more) opposing or at least divergent political viewpoints?
If that is what you are saying then - a) Prove it and b) Isn't that exactly you're doing (As well) by swinging from your "Social housing isn't necessary" pillar to your "What about the SNP pledge on social housing" post?
"Hardly hypocracy by be at all, merely a position more complicated than a man of extremes like you seem able to comprehend."
Ah - the good, old "talk down patronisingly from a position of smug, (assumed)intellectual superiority. For a man without so much as a Third class degree to his name, who doesn't seem to know the difference between 'asperation'and 'aspirations'- you're awfully convinced that you're cleverer than I am.
Here's a question then; please explain to the class the difference between GBP170million of capital acceleration spending on social housing in 2008-09 and a GBP170 million reduction in social housing spend in 2009-10?
You may, if you wish, include references to HMT's approval of capital acceleration in 2009-09 and a brief discourse on the reasons why (If known) that HMT have, so far, not been willing to approve an equivalent capital acceleration in 2009-10.
You could also, being a man who grasps "complicated" issues so firmly and so readily explain precisely what input (If any) Scotland's minority SNP government has into process whereby capital acceleration for 2009-10 is or isn't approved by HMT.
Then when you've done all that, you might want to print out your rather rash and misjudged words vis a vis John Swinney and social housing funding from earlier, get yourself a bottle of ketchup or other condiments, to taste and start eating them.
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272. At 3:12pm on 25 Sep 2009, Electric Hermit
"258. northhighlander
"Secondly we peddle the myth that a degree in Photography or fine art is the way to lucrative career. Frequently it is not. It is a route to debt and a job in a call centre for many."
The same could be said of any degree. What's your point"
Not any degree - a degree in business law is a degree into a solid profession, a degree in education & English is a way into teaching in schools...but there are too numerious nonsense degrees which will lead nowhere. The point I'd take is that universities are becoming popularised, and it is at the expense of standards, and actual purpose.
Face it, university education isnt the best option for everyone, not everyone wants an academic profession, indeed frequently those who opt for skilled labour employemnt earn much much more than those with degrees.
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#259 GrassyKnollington
I'm not sure that Phil Miller at The Herald will have any valid views on anything, since he imagines there is something called the NHS which he thinks is a cross-border institution.
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258. northhighlander
"Regarding Higher education, The taxpayer funds the pot of money that is supposed to be inlieu of tuition fees. Okay so far? The main source of income for Universities is Central Government."
So the taxpayer has a say in what the money should achieve. I have never suggested that choice in higher education should be restricted, by stopping people from studying their chosen route. However I am saying that by not targetting money to courses that the nation needs to develop we are failing our young people in two clear ways."
Your condescending manner doesn't alter the fact that this belies the the very notions of your previous post in response to me - that central government fund what it needs to and let the thing being funded do what it does best and innovate in the ways that it sees fit. So, the taxpayer's money = government funding, it goes to the universities who then decide which degrees to offer - not the taxpayer northhighlander. Watch out, your 'centralising instinct' is showing.
"First we are lowering standards at University. By trying to fund the system in the way we are we are lowering tuition time and standards. Our young people are not getting the education they are incurring debt for."
Wrong! Lowering standards are occurring simply because more and more people are coming into the universities, leaving with a degree, only to find that there aren't he jobs for them. So in job market lots of people have degrees, that's the devaluation. It's what comes from destroying the job market by doing what people said would be best for the economy - get rid of manufacturing, build up service and financial - worked out real good didn't it?
"Secondly we peddle the myth that a degree in Photography or fine art is the way to lucrative career. Frequently it is not. It is a route to debt and a job in a call centre for many."
The same is true for many with all sorts of degrees, and there are many pursuing careers having posession of photography and fine arts degrees.
Again, direct benefit to the economy and production of lucrative careers are not the goals of higher education institutions.
"The choices our young face are not being clearly spelled out and many regret that this in later life. So personal enrichment may be a noble aspiration however for many it is a dead end."
Personal enrichment is never a dead end, perhaps you mean financially so. I get it, northhighlander, money is your scorecard for life.
"I have two degrees, I worked full time while attaining both and paid for them myself. This took considerable Sacrifice from my family and myself. However both resulted in improved employment and a better life for my family."
I have only one, not for free like the politicians who decided to take that away, and as a mature student with a family too. So what? Is there a point to your personal anecdote?
"You also rubbish Dean on his views on vocational training. Your view on this is really arrogant, in that every child should be forced through the same system irrespective of their talents."
Deanthetory didn't describe vocational training. He said that, for example, kids with a natural talent for the electrians trade should be educated accordingly. Given that no such natural talents exist, it's a ludicrous suggestion. Even if it were so, it's difficult to see how some third party coming in and looking at a child and determining that they should be educated to fill a particular trade is anything short of the tyranny of the state against an individual.
As I've already said, i think that to many people are being thrown into higher education to keep them out of the jobless figures, so your presentation of my view as being arrogantly in favour of throwing everyone into higher education is wrong, but don't let that fact stop you from misrepresenting me.
"Some kids will never attain 5 highers, some will never attain 5 standard grades. But they have to sit in classes that they can't achievie in because people like you say they must. Just so they are in no doubt about their weaknesses in life eh?"
See above, as this appears to be a continuation of your rant against your personal misrepresentation of me.
"Why should they not be able to learn skills that will help them when they leave school? Vocational education teaches maths and science in a way that conventional education doesn't. Some people respond better to this approach. Why should they be denied the opportunity?"
And yet more for which you can simply see above. Actually, wouldn't it be easier for you to find someone who actually held the views you're so against and go and rant at them.
I'll look out for them too, and if i find them i'll tell them that northhighlander, master of the shortform, wants a word with them.
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273. oldnat
"More than feasible, I think - highly desirable. Few people understand (it is a very specialist field of research!) just how appalling Labour's Education Act in 2000 was. Essentially it took a particual (and unproved) management system - target setting - and applied that single management system to all Scotland's public schools."
Given that everyone on the blog seems to want fresh thinking on education, perhaps we can all stop kicking this particular football (and each other) about for now, and if an opportune blog post comes along later perhaps we can have a collaborative discussion on new ways of reforming education in a meaningful and self-sustaining way.
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I can't see comments from 274 onward at the moment, so with hopeful reference to my 281, I will not rise to any more education related bait from 274 onward - no promises on name-calling though :)
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275. deanthetory
"
According to the laws of devolution as they stand there is a Scottish executive."
What law states that the Scottish Government must be referred to as rthe Scottish Executive?
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274. deanthetory
"We brought power to the people and away from government by allowing people to have a stake in their economy."
While you indulge your fantasies, those of us who were actually there remember state-sponsored strife, state-engineered social division. State-sponsored "loadsamoney" for scum-sucking spivs and Salvation Army soup kitchens for willing workers. Nothing in your posts suggest either that you have any knowledge of what "your" party did to my country, or that "your" party has changed in any meaningful way since those dark days when the vile Thatcher squatted over the land.
I do not forget. I do not forgive.
In a sense, it is good that we are destined for another spell of Tory rule. Callow, credulous young fools such as yourself apparently need to be taught what really means. It is unfortunate that so many will have to pay such a high price for your education.
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Mod queue just over 2 hours now. Looks like a slooooow week-end ahead.
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#258 northhighlander
There is a problem with vocational education, though. The elephant in the room is which children get taken aside and gently suggested that they would be better in...a less academic class, shall we say? It's not always to do with ability or vocation, if we're honest. Certain kids will always be "academic" because it would be too too embarrassing to say at a nice dinner party that Tristan was doing a Modern Apprenticeship as a welder.
And then whether those "vocational" children have a route back into academic education if they need it or develop a sudden passion for a subject. Too often, they don't, or it would take superhuman effort by child and parents to get the transfer.
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# 271 oldnat
I gathered that and to my shame I was playing the same game.
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278. deanthetory
"...but there are too numerious nonsense degrees which will lead nowhere."
Education is not a commodity. Education is a social good. I might s well be talking Venusian.
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280. At 4:00pm on 25 Sep 2009, mrbfaethedee
"Deanthetory didn't describe vocational training. He said that, for example, kids with a natural talent for the electrians trade should be educated accordingly."
No such natural talent? Some children develop better coordination sklls than others, this is why we talk of 'natural talen' for football. Some kids develop stronger abilities to compute numbers, while others suffer NATURALLY from discalculia- it seems entirely appropriate that the education system should be selective, to maximise these individual strengths kids display.
And Northhighlander is correct, I did call for selection in the education process, and specifically about the need to direct education towards kids abilities (or substitute this of 'natural talent', it was meant as meaning the same thing).
I apologise if I confused you with my wording, but clearly I was pretty specific and clear- as everyone else understood I called for selection, and vocational education programmes for kids skilled in non-academic aspects.
You've merely displayed your own desire to find something to oppose in everything I've said simply because of my political allegience. Your plinth is high, your relentless mud slinging you seem bound to moving on with is only making you appear less smart than you really are. I've had discussions with you in the past, and your better than this anti-tory baseless mud throwing.
I suggest you retract your statement "no promises on name-calling though", I dont think anyone really needs this kind of behaviour. For my part I offer an unreserved apology.
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283. At 4:21pm on 25 Sep 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
275. deanthetory
"
According to the laws of devolution as they stand there is a Scottish executive."
What law states that the Scottish Government must be referred to as rthe Scottish Executive?
---
The Scotland Act 1998 holds that under the terms and auspices of the Act there shall be a legally sanctioned 'Scottish Executive'. Until there is a change to the devolutionary Act and settlement this remains the legal terminology. But feel free to call the Scottish Executive anything you want, I'll stick with the legal terms as per the Scotland Act 1998:
Let me show you just a couple of areas where the First Ministers administration is refered explicitly to as the 'Scottish Executive':
*Proceeding etc...Sec 23...1[b]: "(b)to produce documents in his custody or under his control,
concerning any subject for which any member of the Scottish Executive has general responsibility"
*and again refered to explicitly as "the Scottish Executive" in sec 23...2[b]: "b)functions of a Scottish public authority or cross-border public authority, or Border rivers functions (within the meaning of section 111(4)), which concern a subject for which any member of the Scottish Executive has general responsibility"
Indeed the only legally used alternative under the auspicies of Devolution Act 1998 was the term "The Scottish Administration".
If you want to dispute what to call it fair enough, but I intend to continue abiding by the terms and auspices of devolution Act 1998. And there is nothing politcal in this at all. You seem to be seeing anti-nats under the bed nowadays...not everything is about your independence cause, for some of us it is secondary to the real issues that face Scotland today.
-http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=2044365
So you can see I didnt make the quotations up, look it up.
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284. At 5:30pm on 25 Sep 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
"274. deanthetory
"We brought power to the people and away from government by allowing people to have a stake in their economy."
While you indulge your fantasies,"
There is nothing of the fantasy in what I said. Look at share ownership for example. Before the Conservatives the profitable private sector served just 7% of the entire population. By 1990 25% had a stake in the economic life of the nation.
Your want the profitable sector of the economy to serve the few, to be the preserve of that 7% who once owned shares- I want to enfranchise the many in the economic life of the nation.
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#283 electric hermit,
I've always wondered this myself. All Parly Q and As come in the format "To ask the Scottish Executive" and the reply being "The Scottish Government..." Doesn't matter which party it's from as the Nats do the same thing.
I know legally they are not the Scottish Government but Executive. However, why? I suppose the law creating it is reserved, but then what about the Welsh Assembly Government? Is that, too, created while the legal name is Welsh Assembly, or if not, why the difference?
Off to Google...
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#256
Fair comment.
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288. At 6:05pm on 25 Sep 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
"278. deanthetory
"...but there are too numerious nonsense degrees which will lead nowhere."
Education is not a commodity. Education is a social good. I might s well be talking Venusian."
Where is the social good in a degree on golf course management? What well paid career does that yeild for the student? You need to just think about some of these degrees students are being encouraged to take up, building up student debt as well- but will leave after 3/4 years with little or no active benefit at all.
Education is a social good, but teaching kids about stuff which wont prepare them for the world of work certainly isnt either good or a social good.
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Funny thing on the way to being elected. Pres Obama got the votes of many people who believed he would try to do the things he promised. Lots of people voted for him because it was a fresh face, not a Clinton or a Bush. He's a good speaker, he also presented an opportunity to make a statement or complaint if you will. Many of these same people did not really believe he would try to do what he said he would do and now are having second thoughts. Politics is a hard thing to figure.
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288. Electric Hermit
"Education is not a commodity. Education is a social good."
That's nicely put.
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285. Brownedov
Maybe it's to do with their beta login system.
I got kicked, and when I had to sign in again - it took me to a changeover page to take my details into the new login system, then I couldn't log back in.
Tried again a short while ago, and was back to the old sign in page, and i'm back.
I assume it isn't just me that get pushed to the new sign in section?
Talking of mods, do you think they get to know us?
And sit there going - "oh god, not this nutjob again" and laughing at funny bits and sighing at tedious stuff - and dreading having to follow links to see waht content is at the other end?
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290. deanthetory
"
Let me show you just a couple of areas where the First Ministers administration is refered explicitly to as the 'Scottish Executive':"
You have shown no more than that the part of the government which is the executive is referred to as such. You were asked to support your claim that their is a legal requirement to refer to the Scottish Government as a whole by the term Scottish Executive. You have failed. Now go away and read up on the branches of government.
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#288 electric hermit
"Education is not a commodity. Education is a social good."
What the man said!
How difficult is this, seriously. The object of education isn't "to get a good job in the City", it's to increase the sum of your own and human knowledge. In addition, studying improves skills such as analysis, problem solving, language/numeracy...at any level it is at.
I know one person who's working on a Ph.D in a really obscure field. Now people who hear about what she's doing laugh and say "What good is that?" She's living on a shoestring budget to expand the amount we as people know about our history, our lives and our development. Yeah, she's never going to drive a Porsche or be the next Alan Sugar, but I venture to suggest there's more to life.
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291. deanthetory
"There is nothing of the fantasy in what I said."
Obviously you are not aware that it is a fantasy. Du-uh!
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291. deanthetory
"Your want the profitable sector of the economy to serve the few..."
Stick to spouting semi-literate nonsense about what you want. You make a big enough fool of yourself that way without presuming to either know or comprehend the content of my mind.
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289. deanthetory
"I suggest you retract your statement "no promises on name-calling though", I dont think anyone really needs this kind of behaviour. For my part I offer an unreserved apology."
I meant - would refrain from posting any more on the education subject, but (in joke) that if i was called names I wouldn't promise the same. I was
I can't hang around to post now, but I will be back later to answer your post - and you may rest assured it will not be to apologise.
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292. fourstrikes
"I know legally they are not the Scottish Government but Executive."
There is no legal impediment to referring to the Scottish Government as the Scottish Government. The term "executive" was insisted upon by the British Labour Party because, while being forced to concede devolution, they could not admit so much as the possibility of a "real" Scottish Government. Which is why, like petulant children, they and their Tory partners continue to use what they regard as a diminutive term.
The SNP's decision to use the term "government" was far more significant than most people realise. In doing so they asserted for Scotland's government a status that the unionist cabal still strives to deny.
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#294 dean
That is truly, truly pitiful.
"Where is the social good in a degree on golf course management? What well paid career does that yeild for the student?"
So the whole point of study is to get the student a "well paid career"? Is that what it's all about? Is there nothing else beyond that?
Even if we accept it on that level, if you were a kid who'd been obsessed with golf from an early age but realised you didn't quite have the talent to go pro, maybe you'd want to study golf course management with a view to, I don't know, working on a golf course.
Your degree is in politics, no? I'd venture to suggest that's quite a lot less practical than golf course management is.
"You need to just think about some of these degrees students are being encouraged to take up, building up student debt as well- but will leave after 3/4 years with little or no active benefit at all."
Aside from improving their analytic and problem solving skills as well as their social skills, a lot of fun experiences, friendships and a lot of knowledge. Yeah, total waste of time that.
"teaching kids about stuff which wont prepare them for the world of work certainly isnt either good or a social good."
In that case, we ought to axe history, Modern Studies, PE for all but the talented, Home Ec for all but the talented (how we would find that out is anyone's guess), modules like Parenting, sex education (unless the powers that be think particular students would make good sex workers) language education (everyone speaks English who's important, right?) art, music...
Dean you can't really be that daft!
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#301 Kermit
What your mind has content, never, never comprehend that as a thought.
E.L.O. it's a living thing.
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294. deanthetory
"What well paid career does that yeild for the student?"
A fine example of the Tory mindset. Monetary value is the only measure these sad, stunted creatures comprehend. And you take this cognitive aberration even further by assuming that your inability to perceive value (monetary or otherwise) necessarily means that there is none.
If nothing else I am grateful to you for reminding us all just how ill-qualified for government of human society the ideological right truly is.
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299. fourstrikes
"In addition, studying improves skills such as analysis, problem solving, language/numeracy...at any level it is at. "
Precisely. This is what narrow-minded, shallow-thinking, short-sighted ideologues such as deanthetory simply cannot comprehend. Education is inherently a good thing. The content is irrelevant. The process itself is of incalculable value. Even to those who, like deanthetory, are unlikely ever to be able appreciate this value.
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#303 electric hermit,
I see what you mean (and personally prefer Government as far less vague) but why is it mandatory in PQs? Even the SNP members and those more inclined towards independence use the format "To ask the Scottish Executive". I can't think they would if they didn't have to.
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#290 deanthetory
You're quite right about The Scottish Administration but not so re The Scottish Executive.
Part II of the Scotland Act 1998 list the parts of The Scottish Administration, where s44 defines The Scottish Executive thusly:
(1) There shall be a Scottish Executive, whose members shall be—
(a) the First Minister,
(b) such Ministers as the First Minister may appoint under section 47, and
(c) the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General for Scotland.
(2) The members of the Scottish Executive are referred to collectively as the Scottish Ministers.
(3) A person who holds a Ministerial office may not be appointed a member of the Scottish Executive; and if a member of the Scottish Executive is appointed to a Ministerial office he shall cease to hold office as a member of the Scottish Executive.
(4) In subsection (3), references to a member of the Scottish Executive include a junior Scottish Minister and “Ministerial office” has the same meaning as in section 2 of the [1975 c. 24.] House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975.
The rest of The Scottish Administration consists of (s49) Junior Scottish Ministers and (s51) The Civil Service.
I'm no lawyer, but IMO, the previous administrations were probably plain wrong in using the term Scottish Executive to describe what was in fact The Scottish Administration. As the latter term has never been used in common parlance, the term Scottish Government is at least more readily understandable.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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304. fourstrikes
"Dean you can't really be that daft!"
Are you giving odds?
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#294 dean
What well paid career does that yeild for the student? I am so glad to hear that you are doing a politics degree. What well paid career do you have in mind? Somewhere in the Borders or, say, Bucks? It's unfortuanately true that wherever people land up in Politics any talent they may have acquired for independent thought will be beaten out of them so that they toe the Party line. Be careful that you don't end up like so many of our "poor" MPs having to try and invent ever more outrageous expenses to mollify the tedium of existence as a backbencher.
Are you going to have to get a real job before you qualify to be an MP? Just as they have to take on some older females to read the news now, if Call-me-Dave gets in next year the Beeb will have to take on some Tory leaning journalists / analysts / presenters then. But of course that's what the present MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath did at STV and look where it got him.
By the way, there are a couple of questions at #224 which you might like to answer as I would like to discuss the proper political view of what a manifesto does.
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308. fourstrikes
"I see what you mean (and personally prefer Government as far less vague) but why is it mandatory in PQs? Even the SNP members and those more inclined towards independence use the format "To ask the Scottish Executive". I can't think they would if they didn't have to."
There is nothing in The Standing Orders of the Scottish Parliament which stipulates that a question should be asked in this form. But Guidance on Parliamentary Questions specifies this form as a means of identifying a question that is addressed to the First Minister, the Scottish Ministers, or the Scottish Law Officers on matters for which they have responsibility.
At Westminster, questions are addressed to Ministers. At Holyrood questions are addressed to the executive branch of the government as a whole. The reason seems to be related to procedural differences between the two parliaments. Whereas Westminster has Departmental or Ministerial sessions, the Scottish Parliament divides opportunities for questions into "First Minister’s Question Time", "General Question Time" and "Themed Question Time(s)".
None of which alters the fact that there is absolutely no reason why the Scottish Government should not be referred to as such. Unless, of course, your purpose is to portray it as a "pretendy" parliament.
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Is this why we have an SoS on his latest blog.
"People for lunch. I talked a lot with the folk there about issues in Dalbeattie, of course, but the main national issue that kept coming up was the latest proposal by the Scottish Government to break away from the BBC.
This is another example of the Scottish government putting their own politics before our country – most Scots know this is just a programme to destroy the BBC and everyone I spoke to today left me in no doubt that this is not what Scots want. Eastenders, Strictly Come Dancing, The Apprentice, Coast, Spooks, Walking with Dinosaurs, Doctor Who – all great programmes.
Everyone agrees that we need to see more network programmes being made in Scotland, and we definitely have the talent to do so, but this isn’t the answer. It would be telly, but it’s not much of a vision."
Spreading deliberate untruths at taxpayers expense. Refrained from calling what I would like to say.
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#297 mrbfaethedee
Similar problems for me. Looks like the beta has gone back to alpha.
Re modding, your guess is as good as mine but seems reasonable. What does seem to have happened is that more moderators have become involved. When posts get published out of sequence it seems to be for that reason and then occasionally you can detect different levels of pickyness regarding the House Rules.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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I rarely agree with the Guardian but someone accidentally took a Let's Get Real pill over that way.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/sep/25/us-uk-special-relationship
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#297. Talking of mods, do you think they get to know us?
And sit there going - "oh god, not this nutjob again" and laughing at funny bits and sighing at tedious stuff - and dreading having to follow links to see waht content is at the other end?
Oh, I suspect that they do. I can see them sitting their deciding to go over my posts with a fine tooth comb on certain nights and swearing that "it's that time of the month" or muttering: "OMG, she's been drinking."
And there was that ONE night when they decided that I should NOT criticize Glenn Campbell and starting modding ALL of my comments. LOL
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#312 electric hermit
You are making this clearer for me (slowly, I admit parliamentary procedure is not my strong point. I know from picket lines and demos but not the nuances of how Parly works...I really should.) Thanks.
Also I thank you for the link as it does clarify the format a bit.
One other thing confuses me. Surely written questions could be addressed to either the Scottish Ministers or Scottish Government? It seems to me that George Foulkes in particular is asking a lot of things which relate to the Civil Service and not to Scottish Ministers' direct responsibility.
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#308 fourstrikes
"Even the SNP members and those more inclined towards independence use the format "To ask the Scottish Executive"." &
#312 Electric Hermit
"But Guidance on Parliamentary Questions specifies this form as a means of identifying a question that is addressed to the First Minister, the Scottish Ministers, or the Scottish Law Officers on matters for which they have responsibility."
They are all just using the formal meaning of the term Scottish Executive as defined in the Scotland Act 1998. Note that the BBC doesn't follow such niceties and calls it the Cabinet as in this website's Cabinet and ministers at-a-glance, which they subtitle "A guide to who's who in the Scottish government", presumably much to the ire of Dean and his fellow unionists.
But time to move on to the new thread, I think.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#313 cynicalHighlander
It's daft but the thing that annoys me most about Jim Murphy's MP blog is that he cannae spell or use grammar for peanuts. Maybe he dictates it and a poor benighted minimum wage typist turns it into HTML and pings it into cyberspace, who knows.
I don't dislike him as a person and heaven knows, the animosity between Labour and SNP is probably at least a tenth as strong as it would be between a Conservative UK Gov't and Solidarity (or SSP) Scottish Gov't ;)
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#313 cynicalHighlander
This is worth posting on the new thread, as Brian cut off discussion on the paper PDQ. Worth listening to at least the last 10 mins of the "debate" for it.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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319. fourstrikes
Its a visual thing with me as he acts like a humanised robot with no character and programmed to spout a set script with no individual rational thought. i.e waste of space.
Tory Labour and Libdems are party first rather than putting the countries interests to the fore., time for change fast.
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317. fourstrikes
"It seems to me that George Foulkes in particular is asking a lot of things which relate to the Civil Service and not to Scottish Ministers' direct responsibility. "
The Lord Foulkes works in mysterious ways. His parliamentary pieces passeth all understanding.
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289. deanthetory
deanthetory
"I suggest you retract your statement "no promises on name-calling though", I dont think anyone really needs this kind of behaviour. For my part I offer an unreserved apology."
I think i explained that you have misinterpreted my 'no promises on name-calling', but to reiterate - I meant that I couldn't promise not to be drawn back into the education discussions based on name-calling.
I accept that it may be ambiguous, but within the context of a post seeking to defer further discussion on a topic so that we can have a more colloborative engagement at a later date, I trust you now see it as it was intended.
Given the post i'm responding to, in my next post i'm going make a single exception for msyelf to respond to some of the content of it - but after that, i promise i'm finished with education in the hope of getting a collaborative discussion going with on ita later date.
Regarding apologies.
To me you are deanthetory, my relationship with you is confined to the context of our interactions on these comment pages. I've no doubt that you're a decent guy (assuming you're a guy), and I've no doubt we'd be able to have a decent time over a drink or two. But in this forum, you have opinions i take issue with, dislike. I'm in no doubt that some of my opinions will affect you in the same way. I have a way of posting - it is my 'voice', i probably across as erratic and pushy - it's hard to describe yourself when your not doing something on purpose, it's like water to a fish! At any rate I'm sure it rubs you up the wrong way form time to time. I have no history of writing prose or publishing my opinions online, I have no artifice in this regard, you may not appreciate my 'voice' but be assured it is genuine, i am one of those people who are (often unfortunately) honest and forthright. You too have a 'voice', and at times it rubs me up the wrong way.
The point is that this is the what and the how of our interactions on these pages, and I don't see that it needs any apology. Even when one of us attacks (directly or indirectly) the others most fervently held beliefs, and in a tone or style to take exception to. I don't not feel there is anything personal.
Nonetheless you offered an unreserved apology. It is why I reponded, not because because of the apology itself, but for what I assume to be the spirit behind it. A desire simply to continue to engage with one another because it is worth more than the peculiarites of how we do it.
I hope you take the right way when I offer no apology - in exactly the same spirit as you offer one.
mrbfaethedee
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289. deanthetory
This is the last thing i'm saying that's related to eduction till we ca nall try an experiment in collaborative discussion on the subject in the future. Cross my heart and blah, blah, blah...
If you (or anyone else) wants to respond to it, it'll be for the audience, not me. In that spirit, I'll keep it as non-inflammmatory (now there's a pun!) as I can.
""Deanthetory didn't describe vocational training. He said that, for example, kids with a natural talent for the electrians trade should be educated accordingly."
"No such natural talent? Some children develop better coordination sklls than others, this is why we talk of 'natural talen' for football. Some kids develop stronger abilities to compute numbers, while others suffer NATURALLY from discalculia- it seems entirely appropriate that the education system should be selective, to maximise these individual strengths kids display."
Look at a footbal pitch, even a professional one, and even in that very coarse grained example of potential selection based on suitable characteristics you will find a huge variation in those characteristics. This is because even where all the mechanisms are in place (various selection processes at various ages and levels) for selection according to characteristics deemed salient to the role, what actually happens is that selection is based instead on performance in the role.
Your notion is predicated on a strong folk-scientific belief in innate characteristics. Even amongst scientist who favour a slant towards predisposition of organism by innate characteristics, you will not find any who would stretch the theory to the extent that it could be used as a determinant for complex human socio-economic roles.
The determination as to whether characteristics are innate or are developed in response to environmental factors is a debate as yet unresolved by scientists who do nothing other that study it deanthetory.
To seek to base an educational - and by extension social policy - on it is foolhardy in the extreme. It is also dangerous. Lest you begin retorting that my calling a policy you happened to espouse dangerous is tantamount to 'mud-slinging', let me flesh it out a little more. Once you believe that different people are possessed of different innate characteristics, you are in the realm of biological determinism; a scientific theory which (very loosely) hypothesizes that the characteristics of an organism are predetermined by its biological nature. The most obvious biolgical characteristic which springs to mind is genetics, which placed hand in hand with social policy based on biological determinism puts us on an extremely slippery slope to eugenics. I know of no-one i've met in real life or online, certainly not yourself, with whom i would associate a belief in eugenics.
For the record I believe (as I'm sure most do) that the truth lies in the complex interplay of nature & nurture, and the fascinating discoveries taking place in the burgeoning field of epigenetics makes it all the more complicated - beautifully so.
"And Northhighlander is correct, I did call for selection in the education process, and specifically about the need to direct education towards kids abilities (or substitute this of 'natural talent', it was meant as meaning the same thing).
I apologise if I confused you with my wording, but clearly I was pretty specific and clear- as everyone else understood I called for selection, and vocational education programmes for kids skilled in non-academic aspects."
What you said originally was -
"Selection so that kids with a natural ability at a skilled job, such as electrician, can recieve an education suited towards this skill inherent in the child."
Why I believe it preposterous that it would be possible to determine a set of innate characteristics corresponding to complex socio-economic techincal roles (jobs) should be clear by now - hence the disparaging (though intended in humour to elicit a shake of your own head and a realisation that you had overstretched to make a point) remarks about scissor hands and the ability to detect voltage drops.
You didn't confuse me with your wording, perhaps the the tone with which I responded led you to beleive so. Hopefully i have given an explanation that allows you to more readily see why I have fundamental issues with your propostion and the consequences of it.
There are already channels through which kids can find the level or fields they feel most ocmfortable with. Selection on the basis of some opinion about what their 'natural abilities' might be is not helpful. It is not the same as selection on performance.
"You've merely displayed your own desire to find something to oppose in everything I've said simply because of my political allegience."
I hope you can see that it is not the case, and that my issues in this instance are specific and directly related to what you said.
"Your plinth is high, your relentless mud slinging you seem bound to moving on with is only making you appear less smart than you really are. I've had discussions with you in the past, and your better than this anti-tory baseless mud throwing."
I'm content to take that as 'mud-slinging' of your own deanthetory ;)
At least I hope I've shown that, here at least, my mud has a basis.
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Hmmmm! the spirit of no apology, it's all getting a bit quirky around here.
The art of the non apologist. giggle...giggle.
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316. JRMacClure
"
Oh, I suspect that they do. I can see them sitting their deciding to go over my posts with a fine tooth comb on certain nights and swearing that "it's that time of the month" or muttering: "OMG, she's been drinking."
And there was that ONE night when they decided that I should NOT criticize Glenn Campbell and starting modding ALL of my comments. LOL"
I'd love fly on the wall documentary on it :)
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325. giggletheloneranger
I can imagine you pretend not to understand what was meant so that you could make a point or joke - but neither!?!
I'm off to the next blog post -
'if i don't meet you no more in this world - i'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!'
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#229. You are right "SNP me no like". They are now proven to have lied their way into government.
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328. deducted3points
"#229. You are right "SNP me no like". They are now proven to have lied their way into government. "
Point to the lie. Point to the proof. When you are unable to do either, try to admit that you speak from blind prejudice rather than the slightest knowledge of the facts.
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328. deducted3points
"They are now proven to have lied their way into government. "
Do a text search on this page for the word 'manifesto', around half the posts will explain to you the nature of party manifestos. Once you feel that you have a rebuttal for these explanations which also supports your assertion that he SNP lied (forget about elections too, eh?) their way into government, come back and tell me all about it.
Bye then.
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#328 deducted3points
This being an education debate, it's legitimate to point out thhat you are using both the words "proven" and "lied" wrongly.
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#329
Your having a laugh Kermit, the proof is all around you and so is the evidence if you want to know.
Check it out, it's not a fabrication.It,s for real.
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332. giggletheloneranger
I see the pubs are closed.
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333 kermit
They are, you can see all that from up there,well I'll be an uncle under a monkeys armpit.
Cheers
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It's always interesting what BBC chooses to include and exclude in their reporting.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/09/25/gadhafi.meeting/
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MacClure
You think way too much of yourself.
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Re 276 mr be
For anyone who works in the private sector the linkage between poor performance and the sack is easy to understand. You don't get retraining you just get moved on. Okay harsh sometimes but you don't waste your life doing something you are poor at. If we were talking about surgeons you would probably be in favour of not allowing poor ones to operate on patients?
I don't pretend to have perfect answers, but the focus on class numbers is at the expense of dealing with poor performance by narrowing the education debate to a single issue.
By pointing out the HMI reports, these show a broad range of measures within a school relating to the learning environment provided. They are a good starting point for the debate. My point is that no argument is offered form MS Hyslop as to how reduced class sizes will improve the performance of poor schools.
You seem happy to pretend bad performing teachers don't exist. This attitude stops improvement. It might be reasonable for a government to look at the extra funding that has been put into education since devolution and ask what increased performance we have achieved?
Not just on exam passes but on literacy and numeracy levels of those leaving school. The answer might not be more money for smaller class sizes, but we will never know if no-one asks the question.
This is another example of the Scottish Government just managing decay like labour before them. No thought over how to look at the problem in a different way. No new ideas at all.
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#135
To return to the subject of a much earlier post I was appalled by the performance of most of the panel on Question Time. I have rarely heard such a load of utter nonsense talked on any subject as was spouted on the al Megrahi affair by every one of the participants.
What was really alarming was the fact that I know that all of them knew they were spouting rubbish. It was quite deliberate.
And even more alarming was the fact that the vast majority of the usual naive and gullible south of England audience swallowed it whole.
They should have tried running this drivel out in front of a Scottish audience.
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338. sneckedagain
"What was really alarming was the fact that I know that all of them knew they were spouting rubbish. It was quite deliberate."
Was it? There is a lot of of genuine ignorance regarding the circumstances of al-Megrahi's release. For sure, there has also been deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. But how do you distinguish between the two?
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337. northhighlander
I can only refer you to my 281 and 282, and tell you that given my desire to respond to the actual points you raise, and to refute the fabricated postion you make out that I hold, I am very roud of myself that I have been able to bite my tongue.
Don't let that stop you swinging away though slugger. :)
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337. northhighlander
"Not just on exam passes but on literacy and numeracy levels of those leaving school. The answer might not be more money for smaller class sizes, but we will never know if no-one asks the question."
What do you imagine the National Debate on Education was about?
What do you imagine the Curriculum Review Group was doing?
Where do you imagine the Curriculum for Excellence came from?
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Re 143 (BlooToon) Concerning my comments (123) and what my point was I do apologise that I did not make myself clear.
The problem that I have is who do we believe and trust? The SNP elected into national government or the SNP elected into local government, given that thet were elected on the same promises/manifesto.
The Education Secretary (F Hyslop) on numerous occasions said that local authorities have received enough funds to deliver on the promise to "maintain teacher numbers".
Unfortunately not everyone agrees with this. One person that springs to mind is Cllr Peter MacKenzie, Education Convenor for East Lothian. He was very clear to myself and other members of the Parents Council that East Lothian Council do not have enough funds to deliver on this manifesto promise.
Another person that does not believe Ms Hyslop is a certain Mr Andrew Sharp, who just so happens to be SNP's Prospective Candidate for Westminister.
When asked who we should believe when Ms Hyslop said that local authorities did have enough money, when Cllr MacKenzie said they did not, Mr Sharp was most emphatic. We shopuld believe Cllr MacKenzie.
Indeed he had a letter published in the East Lothian News saying exactly this.
It speaks volumes when a prospective candidate is telling us not to believe everything a government minister of his own party is telling us.
With regards to your comments about teacher pupil ratios. This is a red herring. There are more teachers to pupils due to the high number of probationer teachers, most of whom will not get a full time job after fully qualifying. (1 in 14 of East Lothian probationers gained full time employment!)
East Lothian's response is to take on even more probationers, presumably to release more press statements boasting about a larger teacher to pupil ratio. No mention of these poor trainee teachers having to sign on next year, like this years have had to.
When a probationer teacher is taken on by a school it has no effect whatsoever on class sizes. All that happens is that teachers within the school are given more "non-contact time" as the probationer eacher takes their class.
It seems a waste of money to train a teacher up only for them to have to sign on the dole because there are no jobs for them as the Scottish Government have not given Local Authorities enough money to "maintain teacher numbers". (according to an education convenor and a prospective snp candidate!)
Don't let me get started on F Hyslop not delivering on the promise to cut class sizes in P1-3 to 18. East Lothian dumped this policy a couple on months ag. Apparently they had not done the sums in August 2007 when they made a "Contract with the People". It appears that they have not discovered that it will cost £20m. Why they did not know this a couple of years ago when they knew that they did not have the money to maintain teacher numbers I just do not know - especially when ctting teacher numbers at Prestonpans Infant School - a P1-3 school!
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342. colinyorkston:
A well. Just vote labour then. See where that gets us.
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341. At 1:54pm on 26 Sep 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
337. northhighlander
"Not just on exam passes but on literacy and numeracy levels of those leaving school. The answer might not be more money for smaller class sizes, but we will never know if no-one asks the question."
Sorry, Hermit. I just don't understand why you respond to this propagandist drivel.
These unionist people just latch on to the run of the mill "populist" subjects and try to come over all matcho, superior and heroic. They try to divide us by targetting the weaknesses of human nature (safety, well being of children, helath etc.) then go and oblitirate other countries in the name of "peace", while our pensioners are having to dress up in rags. They give the same tiring, intelectually insulting and demeaning, pre manufactured arguments (if you can even call them that) - they could almost come of a conveyor belt.
The way labour is acting is criminal? Trying to isolate Glasgow and stir up tension there at the moment is pretty scary to me I have to admit. This city has enough problems when it comes to division, labour think theysmell a weak point. I think the SNP may have to reconsider the GARL, much to the delight of a certaing highlander I would imagine.
Hopefully our fellow scots will see through the ruse though.
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#344 Phil_Anthropponent
I have reconsidered GARL, it is rubbish, just as EARL was and the trams are. Tavish was a disaster at Transport and the SNP are having to right the wrongs of 50 wasted years. Isn't it odd how all the local electrification apart from North Berwick is into and around Glasgow?
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344. Phil_Anthropponent
"Sorry, Hermit. I just don't understand why you respond to this propagandist drivel."
Fair point! But sometimes the drivel is just so nonsensical it provokes a response anyway. The suggestion that no-one is "asking questions" about Scotland's education system when we have just spent seven years on arguably the most intensive review ever undertaken is so ridiculous I just couldn't help myself.
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"Sacking bad teachers"
northhighlander especially (but others as well)
From the late 19th century until 2000, it wasn't possible to sack a teacher without a two thirds vote of the Education Committee. Hence few Directors of Education even tried, and incompetent teachers were simply shuffled from school to school, given few classes etc etc. It takes time to change management practice and a number of authorities provided no training of senior management in the required processes of employment law.
You should note that I use "incompetent" (which can be measured against the set of competences agreed by the GTC a few years back) as opposed to "bad" which is a value judgment that no tribunal would accept.
Few teachers are sacked for incompetence even in those schools and authorities that have a good track record of improving teaching standards. The reason is very simple. Once a teacher who is incompetent is identified, and the evidence for that determined; they go through a series of Verbal and Written warnings, which gives them the opportunity to bring their performance up to standard. Some improve, and that's fine. Others recognise the reality that they are not cut out for the job, and resign. Some go to the end of the disciplinary system, and then resign - usually on the advice of their Union, since that protects the pension they have earned to date.
Are their still incompetent teachers in Scotland's schools. Almost certainly. Why? Poor management at school and/or authority level. The process is time consuming, as it needs to be to avoid unfair treatment of employees.
Does Central Government carry any responsibility? Yes until 2000 - successive Tory and Labour Governments at Westminster simply never gave time to repealing antiquated legislation. Their post-war education legislation was ideologically determined.
As soon as we got our own Parliament, the matter was addressed - all credit to the then Lab-LD Government - and unanimously supported by all parties. Remaining prob;lems are entirely the responsibility of management at school and authority level. Elected Members getting involved in individual cases is totally inappropriate, and their role is limited to ensuring that the Director of Education does his job.
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#342 colinyorkston
You don't understand the allocation and funding of probationer teachers.
They have a 75% teaching load, and that proportion of their salary is paid by the authority. They have 25% of their time devoted to continuing training, and that part of their salary is funded by the Scottish Government. Authorities identify vacancies that can be filled by probationers, and inform the Government of these so that probationers can be allocated to these posts. There may be more probationers than there are vacancies, in which case the Government will fully fund these additional probationers - it is only with this last group that schools will allocate additional development time to experienced teachers so that the probationer gains the necessary 75% teaching experience.
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#347
What a good post, plenty to think about there.
I wonder oldnat just as there are incompetent teachers, then there will also be incompetent and bad parents. Would you consider the need to tackle bad or incompetent parenthood.
Secondly,Do we kick off our primary level of education at to low an age level (5) should we maybe think about starting our level of primary education at 7 years of age and compulsory right through to 18.
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347. oldnat
Excellent analysis.
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NorthernHighlander
Here's my take on smaller classroom sizes, for what it's worth.
Not ever child in a class with 18 or less would gain, what it would do is allow the teacher to give more time to those, who need more time and attention.
I think our education system is pretty poor at early detection for pupils who need more attention and time. I also think our system is to compact and driven, I would like to see new methods and a more colourful approach to teaching, sometimes it's to humdrum.
I've never accepted the position that 20% of school leavers leave with no formal qualifications, after 11 years of full time education, it is an indictment against our education system and our parenthood.
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#349 giggletheloneranger
Parents are people. Kids are people. I've seen "good" parents produce vicious anti-social kids, and (more rarely) the other way round.
There's no way I'm ever going to support eugenics! Nor do I think it's often useful to parachute middle class social workers into supporting troubled families. There are lots of decent people (often women) in deprived areas who could be paid to support troubled families in their own area. (I think of them as "community grannies"!)
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#352 oldnat
OK, that's where we differ, I would like governments to do more for signal and troubled parents, I would like governments to help them into better housing with more room,I would like governments ensure their benefits are adequate and have a better fully operational health care from dental treatment to health issues.
I guess you just like parking your car in the most convenient place?.
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TheLoneRanger:
"Secondly,Do we kick off our primary level of education at to low an age level (5) should we maybe think about starting our level of primary education at 7 years of age and compulsory right through to 18."
Education is not the sole soluation, especially as training or apprenticeships can be provided in order for our children of tomorro to become a skilled worker.
The people who want to stay will, others might seek work experience then return to college to gain those qaulifications they never chased up earlier.
I also feel that a late start at 7 would be too late for the child to understand routine, whereas you can teach someone younger far easier.
"I think our education system is pretty poor at early detection for pupils who need more attention and time."
The idea that troubled pupils should receive more attention and time would annoy me to quite a large extent. The system is designed to ensure that some individuals fail, so to waste time on a minority that usually are the first to leave at sixteen is not value for money, would I have to contribute to the distruption of the class in order to get attention from my teacher?
On some occasions people should be allowed to fail in order to realise their mistakes later in life which will hopefully motive the person from returning to education. If they don't learn the first time round, what more can you do?
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354. Thomas_Porter
"The idea that troubled pupils should receive more attention and time would annoy me to quite a large extent."
Logically, you should be "annoyed" by more resources being devoted to those with least need. But, of course, the fact that you are "annoyed" at all indicates that logic does not feature strongly in your thinking.
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Electric Hermit:
#355.
It's your opinion and your opinion does not represent logic. I simply do not believe money and time should be prioritised on the inferior individuals of this country. As I said, sometimes failure in society will be enough to force individuals to understand the importance of education and bettering themselves.
Either way I can ensure my place in society. These 'people' provide excellenct services in non-skilled employment, which can be used to ensure I stay on top in the world.
That's the reality of the world, Electric Hermit. People like that are needed, which is why the system ensures people DO fail.
Ever heard the expression, you get what you pay for? Governments can improve the system for all but it would not be in their favour to do so.
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356. Thomas_Porter
"It's your opinion and your opinion does not represent logic."
Having read some of the stuff you appear to be regurgitating from a poor translation of Mein Kampf, it comes as no surprise to find that you are unable to distinguish between opinion and logic. Only a complete idiot would spend money repairing a perfectly functioning car when the same money would bring another two cars up to a similar standard.
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